# Tobirama - Massive Racist Asshole or Righteous Vindicator?



## NO (Mar 27, 2013)

Tell me how you really feel about Tobirama.


----------



## Ersa (Mar 27, 2013)

Massive douche.

He knows what it's like to lose a brother yet he kills Madara's brother and is still a dick to him with no empathy whatsoever.

Good thing he was Hashi's bitch


----------



## Gilgamesh (Mar 27, 2013)

He's awesome


----------



## Sadako (Mar 27, 2013)

He has good intentions, but is being a stubborn, hard-headed ass about it. It seems he's completely incapable of seeing things from another's perspective... or he just doesn't want to.


----------



## JPongo (Mar 27, 2013)

His mind is very clear.  He watches out for things that can go wrong.

He knows that the Uchiha are a bunch of headcases.

He's being very careful.

He's badass.


----------



## ed17 (Mar 27, 2013)

I seriously hate him right now


----------



## chakra-burned (Mar 27, 2013)

Chicken...or egg? 














Neither! Total Douche!


----------



## Kamina. (Mar 27, 2013)

What he says is generally correct but he acts like a dick while doing it. For example, suggested democracy to choose the hokage but at the same time was talking shit about his brother's best friend.

I like him as a character but sometimes the way he acts really pisses me off.


----------



## Golden Circle (Mar 27, 2013)

A scumbag who prefers to paint clans with a broad stick to suit his own interests.


----------



## Gaawa-chan (Mar 27, 2013)

No in-between option?


----------



## First Tsurugi (Mar 27, 2013)

Obviously being shown to be a paranoid warmonger who can't let go of the past.


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 27, 2013)

Total Dick..


----------



## PikaCheeka (Mar 27, 2013)

He's a manipulative dickhead.

I can't stop laughing whenever I see him.  He's so loveable with his fur collar.


----------



## Kuromaku (Mar 27, 2013)

He's a pragmatic dickhead who does think things through. Kishimoto seems to go out of his way to make him look like the bad guy when a lot of what he says makes sense.

Hokage? Make it a democratic process. It's the only way to ensure that others will cooperate with the whole village thing.

Uchiha? Headcases who do *need* to be watched. While they are not to blame for their condition, the fact is that the very nature of their abilities means that one can't just live and let live. What if they get stiffed over a deal? What if their crush dies? What if a burger costs double what it did yesterday?

He had the right ideas, but he certainly chose the most dickish ways to execute them.


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 27, 2013)

Now I want to see how he got his ass handed to him by them Kumo guys


----------



## Garfield (Mar 27, 2013)

Kuromaku said:


> He's a pragmatic dickhead who does think things through. Kishimoto seems to go out of his way to make him look like the bad guy when a lot of what he says makes sense.
> 
> Hokage? Make it a democratic process. It's the only way to ensure that others will cooperate with the whole village thing.
> 
> ...


I disagree, he's not at all pragmatic. Hashirama with his idealism is much more pragmatic. If you want stability in a village, you have to be less authoritative, yes but you don't have to be completely "democratic" either. Considering the Senjus won the first round, they had no reason to not cede a little to Uchiha even though the Uchiha were scared enough to vote for Hashirama. The simple action of making Madara the hokage would have saved the village from much future anguish.


----------



## Arles Celes (Mar 27, 2013)

It all depends about how one feels about Uchihas.

Personally I see him to be quite alike to the elders(aside from Danzou who really took it to the extreme). But the elders are well...old and ugly so even among the anti-Uchiha fandom they probably do not have to many fans.

He just like the elders lacked what Tsuande said was the most important thing: Faith. 

He wasn't willing to trust Uchihas and he let his fear of their unpredictability to cloud his judgment which created mutual distrust. Kinda like the elders only saw Naruto as a dangerous tool that needs to be strictly controlled and shouldn't be treated as a human being. A point when pragmatism and logical thinking completely eradicates compassion and empathy.


----------



## PoinT_BlanK (Mar 27, 2013)

I don't like him.

incredibly prejudiced, judges people based on genetics and name. Makes no substantial effort to understand and solve what he deems a problem outside of separation and segregation.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Mar 27, 2013)

Kuromaku said:


> He's a pragmatic dickhead who does think things through. Kishimoto seems to go out of his way to make him look like the bad guy when a lot of what he says makes sense.
> 
> Hokage? Make it a democratic process. It's the only way to ensure that others will cooperate with the whole village thing.
> 
> ...



How is he pragmatic when his actions are primarily governed by his emotions?


----------



## ChickenPotPie (Mar 27, 2013)

He acts like an Uchiha


----------



## Kuromaku (Mar 27, 2013)

adee said:


> I disagree, he's not at all pragmatic. Hashirama with his idealism is much more pragmatic. If you want stability in a village, you have to be less authoritative, yes but you don't have to be completely "democratic" either. Considering the Senjus won the first round, they had no reason to not cede a little to Uchiha even though the Uchiha were scared enough to vote for Hashirama. The simple action of making Madara the hokage would have saved the village from much future anguish.



The fact is that if Madara was already that close to the tipping point, the village might have dodged a bullet by not making him Hokage. By extension, this applies to having Uchiha in positions of power in general. Throwing the Uchiha a bone would have been nice, but there is no guarantee that this would have kept someone like Tobirama from taking power in the future (even Hashirama managed to die during a war).

Furthermore, with Hashirama around with his reputation of strongest man alive, there would have been some shakiness politically speaking, if the village's regime was indeed led by Madara. He would have to deal with the fact that others might see him as some sort of puppet leader (compare his pull to Hashirama's), especially in light of the fact that it was the Uchiha under his command who were at a disadvantage in their battles against Senju.

I'm not saying that Tobirama's approach was the right one, but that there is justification for his beliefs, especially considering how Madara and Obito proved him right in hindsight.

Question: so how does Madara's attack on Iwagakure fit into this timeline? Or will it be revealed that he wore the headband even as a rogue?


----------



## Gaawa-chan (Mar 27, 2013)

adee said:


> The simple action of making Madara the hokage would have saved the village from much future anguish.



I wonder if that's really the case.  Madara is clearly mentally unstable and it's difficult to guess at what would have happened to the village with him in power.


----------



## Gunners (Mar 27, 2013)

PoinT_BlanK said:


> I don't like him.
> 
> incredibly prejudiced, judges people based on genetics and name. Makes no substantial effort to understand and solve what he deems a problem outside of separation and segregation.


What should he have done? People overlook the fact that during his era Uchiha were conspiring to overthrow the government. Having the entire clan with lose cannons of that nature in village's center would present a great risk. 

It also made sense to judge the Uchiha clan based on their genetics. It sounds crude on paper but looking at it from their verses perspective it is no different than treating Juugo's clan (prone to fits of rage) with caution.


----------



## Deleted member 206107 (Mar 27, 2013)

Dick . 
but he's badass.


----------



## PoinT_BlanK (Mar 27, 2013)

Gunners said:


> What should he have done? People overlook the fact that during his era Uchiha were conspiring to overthrow the government. Having the entire clan with lose cannons of that nature in village's center would present a great risk.
> 
> It also made sense to judge the Uchiha clan based on their genetics. It sounds crude on paper but looking at it from their verses perspective it is no different than treating Juugo's clan (prone to fits of rage) with caution.



the uchiha conspired to overthrow the government due to his actions, up until here, they were cooperating and willing to follow hashirama's lead who they deemed a good leader

tobirama threw them to the outskirt of the villages in what used to be a prison, tobirama aggressively pushed the separation and segregation agenda, tobirama played with their intelligence with that police force which was nothing but a way of keeping them in control and outside of real position's of power reach

because you fear they might go unstable with hatred you give them reasons to hate?


----------



## Kazuya Mishima (Mar 27, 2013)

Says Madara is evil...Madara turns out to be evil. Can't hate a guy for speaking the truth.


----------



## Sumerian (Mar 27, 2013)

He is very one dimensional. "A serious man who dislike the Uchiha and believe the end justifies the means" is a pretty good summary of his personality. 

His dislike towards the Uchiha is something that affects his decision making, without thinking about the consequences. Instead of giving them a fair chance like other clans, he pushes them away and expect them to sit there and take it.


----------



## Namikaze Minato Flash (Mar 27, 2013)

Stubborn in his convictions beyond reason, but he was right in not trusting Madara or the Uchiha in general. Look how quick Madara switched after reading the tablet. So easily corrupted by power and many of his fellow clansmen followed suit to the rest's detriment...


----------



## PoinT_BlanK (Mar 27, 2013)

Also, important thing to notice, in this chapter he refers to the uchiha-hatred-power relation as 'rumours' yet he is already cemented into his bigoted ways

the guy is scum


----------



## Bender (Mar 27, 2013)

He's an asshole. Period.


----------



## Btbgfel (Mar 27, 2013)

A scumbag with style

whos give a shit to uchiha anyway?itachi soloed their asses


----------



## Kusa (Mar 27, 2013)

A scared little selfish cat.

The cause of his actions was his fear of the Uchihas becoming to powerful.He was very selfish and didn't care about anyones feelings,not even about his brothers feelings.He knew exactly how much Hashirama loved Madara,yet he didn't even try to accept Madara just a little bit for his brother.

lol @ people saying Madara switched very fast and therefore Tobirama was right.


----------



## Kazuya Mishima (Mar 27, 2013)

Villain said:


> A scared little selfish cat.
> 
> The cause of his actions was his fear of the Uchihas becoming to powerful.He was very selfish and didn't care about anyones feelings,not even about his brothers feelings.He knew exactly how much Hashirama loved Madara,yet he didn't even try to accept Madara just a little bit for his brother.



Tobirama didn't care about anyone's feelings? Is that why he pushed for his brother to listen to the entire village's feelings on who should be Hokage? If anyone was selfish it was Hashirama for thinking he could choose a leader by himself.


----------



## Arya Stark (Mar 27, 2013)

He is a dickhead but I can't hate him because he plays his role very well.


----------



## Gunners (Mar 27, 2013)

PoinT_BlanK said:


> the uchiha conspired to overthrow the government due to his actions, up until here, they were cooperating and willing to follow hashirama's lead who they deemed a good leader
> 
> tobirama threw them to the outskirt of the villages in what used to be a prison, tobirama aggressively pushed the separation and segregation agenda, tobirama played with their intelligence with that police force which was nothing but a way of keeping them in control and outside of real position's of power reach
> 
> because you fear they might go unstable with hatred you give them reasons to hate?



My bad, I assumed that placing them in a corner was a response to the hidden traitors not the cause.  recent chapters are having the _lol Danzou_ effect.


----------



## Nitharad (Mar 27, 2013)

Tobirama is the shinobi this manga needs since Danzo is dead.


----------



## Deana (Mar 27, 2013)

I voted for spawn of satan but the true answer is . . . Tobirama is both both options and should've never been given a position of power in the village. His thought process was a relic of the past world and dangerous for that new village. Neither he nor Madara deserved the title of Hokage but Tobirama got the chance to become one and that was the beginning of the end of the fantasy of peace in the village.

I blame Hashirama for not addressing the old feelings of discontent between the two clans. It was right there in Hashi's face between his friend and his brother but he left things as is. For being such a strong man he was *naive as hell* and dare I say he has Naruto, a child, beat in that department.


----------



## Jeαnne (Mar 27, 2013)

he was extremelly reckless


----------



## Fiona (Mar 27, 2013)

Well considering he was _RIGHT_ all along i dont really see an issue


----------



## Jeαnne (Mar 27, 2013)

how was he right?

we cant say if madara was already evil, or turned evil after the issue


----------



## Deana (Mar 27, 2013)

Fiona said:


> Well considering he was _RIGHT_ all along i dont really see an issue


He was right about Madara (and some others because no race or sex is immune to lunatics) but he created the ill feelings from the other Uchia, himself. Hashi had them and their trust (they picked him over Madara, twice) but it was all lost with Tobirama.


----------



## Moeka (Mar 27, 2013)

*Tobi*rama is the influence of evil, which is is why Obito named himself "Tobi" =P


----------



## Arles Celes (Mar 27, 2013)

When you antagonize someone enough then your fears will obviously become a reality.

Tobirama's fears were like a self fulfilling prophecy.


----------



## Kusa (Mar 27, 2013)

Kazuya Mishima said:


> Tobirama didn't care about anyone's feelings? Is that why he pushed for his brother to listen to the entire village? If anyone was selfish it was Hashirama for thinking he could choose a leader with no input.



He only wanted his brother to listen to the entire village,because he knew the village wouldn't want Madara as the leader anyway(which he said in the next panel..).He didn't do it for the sake of the village.If he really cared about the village,he would have done everything to avoid the possibilty of the Uchihas attacking his beloved village,yet he did the opposite.He gave the Uchihas a reason or maybe only an excuse to attack the village.

Why do you even mention Hashirama? I never said he was not being selfish,.


----------



## Fiona (Mar 27, 2013)

Tobirama suspected that the Uchiha would rise up because of their hatred and destroy the alliance. 

Its a good thing that there was never a plan by the Uchiha to take over the leaf  


Oh wait...
​


----------



## Bender (Mar 27, 2013)

Just because you're "RIGHT" doesn't mean you should go about bragging about it like "Brother he's gonna slaughter us! He's crazy! All Uchiha are crazy!"


----------



## Skywalker (Mar 27, 2013)

Tobirama does what has to be done.


----------



## chauronity (Mar 27, 2013)

He's exactly like Danzo. Well no surprise, because he was his student. 

*I don't like his personality much, and i also don't believe in his Nazi-style solutions dealing with Uchihas. Replace Jews with Uchiha and you'll know what kind of leader he is. 
*
Total scumbag leader of Senju Reich.


----------



## Golden Circle (Mar 27, 2013)

Who's voting for Good Guy? Dupes?

The majority in this thread think otherwise. It's hardly ~50-50 like the poll makes out.


----------



## Gilgamesh (Mar 27, 2013)

chauronity said:


> He's exactly like Danzo. Well no surprise, because he was his student.
> 
> *I don't like his personality much, and i also don't believe in his Nazi-style solutions dealing with Uchihas. Replace Jews with Uchiha and you'll know what kind of leader he is.
> *
> Total scumbag leader of Senju Reich.



You can't be fucking serious 

Comparing the uchiha to Jewish people is an insult



> The majority in this thread think otherwise. It's hardly ~50-50 like the poll makes out.



By that you mean uchiha fans who are completely biased


----------



## Hokage (Mar 27, 2013)

Tobirama is realistic. Madara kept asking ridiculous demands (kill your brother BS) and tweaking the rules (Hokages were appointed in some sort of democracy) just to gain power.


----------



## CrazyAries (Mar 27, 2013)

Gaawa-chan said:


> No in-between option?



^This.  Tobirama is a gray character, albeit extreme when it comes to the Uchiha.



Kuromaku said:


> He's a pragmatic dickhead who does think things through. *Kishimoto seems to go out of his way to make him look like the bad guy when a lot of what he says makes sense.*
> 
> Hokage? Make it a democratic process. It's the only way to ensure that others will cooperate with the whole village thing.
> 
> ...



I agree with this post.  While those like Tobirama and Danzo may have valid points in certain areas, they exacerbated some of their own problems.  Both dealt with the Uchiha in a heavy handed manner and that ultimately led to the massacre and the Sasuke situation, respectively.  Danzo thought that he should lead while denying human emotion but that left little to no room for diplomacy and trust.

Now I particularly have an issue with what you talked about in your second sentence.  Kishimoto has a tendency to show extremes in ideology while showing a preference for one.  Even those in the wrong can have valid points, but that is ignored for what most consider a more naive way of thinking.  The ideal position should be in the middle, but one ideology is completely rejected.


----------



## slickcat (Mar 27, 2013)

the greatest design choice since kakashi with a scar. Love this guy just for being drawn the way he is, the rest of his actions is a plus.


----------



## IchLiebe (Mar 27, 2013)

chauronity said:


> He's exactly like Danzo. Well no surprise, because he was his student.
> 
> *I don't like his personality much, and i also don't believe in his Nazi-style solutions dealing with Uchihas. Replace Jews with Uchiha and you'll know what kind of leader he is.
> *
> Total scumbag leader of Senju Reich.



So Tobirama enslaved the Uchiha, killed millions of them(probably did that on the battlefield) by sending them to gas chambers, and starving them to death and live in poor conditions.

Cause I thought under Tobirama, They actually got a position of power. 

Its like if Hitler said "I hate Jews, death to jews" "I have appointed the SS as an all Jew ran military outfit" "We have built these nice buildings  and gated community for these jews to live in peacefully".

But Hitler didn't, he killed the jews with his SS, destroyed Ghettos and put jews in concentration camps.

If I don't trust someone, Im not going to make them the police force in a new founded country.


Tobirama was a true ninja who didn't have any emotions as Hashirama and Madara does thus he is able to see everything from a pov of a true shinobi, not one who dreams about the future, but slays in the present.

Seriously, first Madara was throwing a pity party for himself, then overhears a conversation about Uchiha being evil and how the people should choose the hokage not the strongest shinobi in the village. That made him mad enough to go all Evil mode kill thousands, and enslave the world in a genjutsu?

I think someone heard a rumor that just might be true.


----------



## Wraith_Madara (Mar 27, 2013)

He's a grey character, stuck in the past.

He fights for the greater good of the village, but his fear of Madara and other potential bad Uchihas got in his way. Apparently, he couldn't even bring himself to trust the Uchihas after they rejected Madara, gave him no support or trust, in favor of Hashirama. I do believe Tobirama wanted the best for the village. But he seems convinced that it would have to be the Senju side that did the work, cause the Uchihas can't be fully trusted.

Building a village while not trusting a part of it and taking precautions just in case? Probably won't go well. I can see why he acts the way he does, but I don't agree with it. Wouldn't like it one bit if it was the real world and I was on the receiving end of his prejudices and fears. If I wasn't, would assume those on the receiving end disliked it as much as I would have done.


----------



## Dattebayo-chan (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm a bit torn on this issue. I can understand where Tobirama is coming from and I believe he wanted what's best for the village.

I do believe he could act differently though, because even though his intentions may have been good, he comes across as an asshole.


----------



## Tian (Mar 27, 2013)

The prejudice against the Uchiha was passed onto him and because of it he has essentially propetuated it for generations into the current day. Its his fault and he is a colossal scumbag. Not to say that his intentions weren't good. He knew the uchiha from a young age and fought them from Childhood, of course he would have prejudice's, how else can you fight an enemy like that.


----------



## Euraj (Mar 27, 2013)

Gilgamesh said:


> By that you mean uchiha fans who are completely biased


I'm not an Uchiha Fan. Put the straw man away. 

I wouldn't say he's Hitler or a "spawn of Satan," but he's definitely in the range of _"cunt-ish old fogie."_ This is probably on purpose, due to the manga's more recent emphasis on their being no real _good guys_ except for folks like Naruto. So, his guess had truth to it in the long run. Quelle bonne surprise. It's like people in the U.S. being afraid that black folks would later rebel against the system of government back in the nineteenth century, and then designing laws that would systematically screw them over. Are we surprised?

With all that said, there is still a distinct difference between him and people like Madara. His actions are foolish and arguably evil, but his heart isn't. If it were, he'd have that Madara face too.


----------



## Hero (Mar 27, 2013)

He is a good guy. There is no debate. He's also thinking logically about this process and isn't letting his dick get in the way like hashi is letting it.

The only extreme thing he has said was to sasuke


----------



## Hero (Mar 27, 2013)

I guess he could be a tad softer with his words, but would he get through to hashirama though?


----------



## Bkprince33 (Mar 27, 2013)

IMO tobirama is basically a scaredy cat, he reminds me a lot of frieza, he fears the uchiha, since they have the ability to grow stronger threw lost of love, he fears one day the uchiha would grow stronger then the senju the same way frieza feared the Salians would grow stronger then him one day.



It also seems like he resents hashi for letting madara live and he also seems to fear madara.


Of course majority of this forum will still praise him, because majority of this forum hates uchiha's lol


----------



## Hokage (Mar 27, 2013)

Some crude facts

- Tobirama was the first person who believed that fueds could be resolved through agreements. 

- It was Madara who refused peace with the Senju and not Tobirama with the Uchiha

- Madara accepted peace when he was defeated. Such peace was accepted by everyone even by Tobirama. 

- Tobirama had the backing not only of the Senju but also of the majority of the Uchiha who preferred HIM as Hokage then their own Madara

- Unlike Madara, Tobirama has not turned his back towards the village. In fact he sacrificed his life to save the village's most promising kids (which included an Uchiha)

- the Uchiha clan were killed by the Uchiha, one of which was Tobi, Madara's pupil.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Mar 27, 2013)

Well Madara was clearly wrong in his belief that Tobirama would exterminate the Uchihas when he became Hokage and him turning evil due to that belief is what ended up further cementing Tobirama's beliefs so that he kept a closer watch on the Uchiha. If Madara never turned evil, had never left Konoha and Tobirama still became the second Hokage, then its highly doubtful Tobirama would have taken any actions against the Uchiha, he would just be wary of them as always. 

Tobirama is logical and reasonable, not really emotional as most in this thread have claimed him to be. Hashirama is the one of the two controlled by emotions. In regards to the Uchiha, Hashirama was the one better suited to make peace with them, as they are a clan ruled by emotion. Every leader has faults and/or areas that they are ill suited to dealing with, the Uchihas being Tobirama's. That hardly makes him "a bad guy", especially when he does it to try and ensure the safety of the majority. Nor does it make him a bad Hokage, his strengths were in structure and order, which lead to him founding the Police Force, Ninja Academy and Chuunin Exams.


----------



## WizzzeR (Mar 27, 2013)

Until Uchihas are ever proven sane, the friend keeps them bitches in line


----------



## AceBizzle (Mar 27, 2013)

Tobirama gets better with every chapter to me


----------



## Kahvehane (Mar 27, 2013)

He's a dick. He doesn't even want to try to patch things up with the Uchiha - he only sees them as the enemy, and he can't bring himself to see the clan as anything but the enemy.

Pretty much this whole thing is his fault for being such an obdurate ass.


----------



## Hokage (Mar 27, 2013)

Kahvehane said:


> He's a dick. He doesn't even want to try to patch things up with the Uchiha - he only sees them as the enemy, and he can't bring himself to see the clan as anything but the enemy.
> 
> Pretty much this whole thing is his fault for being such an obdurate ass.



The Uchiha would have chosen him over Madara as Hokage though, which is kind of the right decision since he died to save Konoha's finest (which included an Uchiha) rather then walk away to oblivion. He also made sure to appoint one of the most gentle hokages ever when he could have chosen Danzo (whose hatred towards the Uchiha is known)


----------



## RWB (Mar 27, 2013)

He's a racist dick.

Doesn't mean he wasn't a good leader or a good guy.

Don't trust the Uchiha? Put them in a position of power where you can see if they are trustworthy.


----------



## Hokage (Mar 27, 2013)

RWB said:


> He's a racist dick.
> 
> Doesn't mean he wasn't a good leader or a good guy.
> 
> Don't trust the Uchiha? Put them in a position of power where you can see if they are trustworthy.



thank god the Germans did that to Hitler. The world really needed a second world war were millions of innocents were killed.

/sarcasm.


----------



## RWB (Mar 27, 2013)

Hokage said:


> thank god the Germans did that to Hitler. The world really needed a second world war were millions of innocents were killed.
> 
> /sarcasm.




...exactly wht kind of a point are you trying to make here?

There's a blatant difference between putting someone in charge of the police of a town and putting a man in charge of the nation(oh, and by the way, Hitler did not get put there by the germans, but by a coup of his own).


Or you are likening Tobirama to Hitler, and that's silly.


----------



## IDontHateYou (Mar 27, 2013)

Good ol' Tobirama

Tobirama is just too much of an asshole.

He is a relic of the past, someone who should have never been Hokage.

I agree that perhaps Madara was too mentally unstable to be the Hokage but making Tobirama Hokage is like making Izuna Hokage. Izuna & Tobirama are one of the same. Neither of them could truely envision a world where the Uchia & Senju could live in peace. Deep down inside Tobirama just hates the Uchia. Period. 

Thinking about it now... look at the monument of Hokage faces in the mountain. There are 3 Senju's up there... not a single Uchia.

After Hashirama died and Tobirama became the Hokage and set up the police force, that was the end of the Uchia right there.  No matter what the Uchia did, Tobirama would have always viewed them with contempt.


----------



## HokageGenma (Mar 27, 2013)

Some people don't know here what real racism is, it is sad!

Tobirama is not a racist, he is a good guy who at least acts like a ninja! He = great Hokage!


----------



## ?Sharingan Squid? (Mar 27, 2013)

Getting killed by Kumo filler villains was too good for him.


----------



## Yuna (Mar 27, 2013)

Tobirama said not to make Madara Hokage because he was untrustworthy and probably had a disposition towards mental illness. Within, like, months, if not weeks, Madara proves him right by turning insane and declaring war on Konoha.

What exactly did Tobirama do wrong here?


----------



## tupadre97 (Mar 27, 2013)

The guy is a prick. He has an unrational hate for the uchiha. It makes sense for him to not trust Madara but to villify, demonize, and distrust all the uchiha is just ridiculous and causes all types of problems (like irrationally blaming them for the kyuubi attack and the genociding them all including women and children, that shits pretty fucked up).


----------



## Matta Clatta (Mar 27, 2013)

Tobirama is right though its not racism if he's specifically talking about one person who proves him right.

Its like the dumbest logic ever to lay Madara's issues at his feet because he told the truth


----------



## Motochika (Mar 27, 2013)

Uchiha slaying bamf!


----------



## Shakar (Mar 27, 2013)

NF defending Tobirama, as usual


----------



## sssssss (Mar 27, 2013)

He was made a scapegoat, so I'd consider him the one from now on. Basically, he's Danzo 2.0. A victim of Kishimoto's tendency to oversimplify things occasionally.

Although Kishi tries hard to blame everything bad that happened to the Uchiha on him, he only makes him more interesting and complex as a character. Well, at least for my liking.


----------



## Olympian (Mar 27, 2013)

He`s that character that got good intentions but goes it the wrong way. He`s stubburn sure, after being at war with the Uchiha for so long he can`t get around his head that some individuals are not the same. 

Of course, with the Uchiha being forever emo, they just give him fuel for thought.


----------



## Vice (Mar 27, 2013)

The Uchiha are a bunch of power mongers with mental stability issues who tried to stage a coup and attacked the village with the Kyuubi twice. Where is he wrong here?


----------



## Yuna (Mar 27, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> The guy is a prick. He has an unrational hate for the uchiha. It makes sense for him to not trust Madara but to villify, demonize, and distrust all the uchiha is just ridiculous and causes all types of problems _*(like irrationally blaming them for the kyuubi attack and the genociding them all including women and children, that shits pretty fucked up)*_.


The attack *was* the work of an Uchiha. They just didn't know which one.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 27, 2013)

Tobirama is the villain, he's the one who cause all of this shit to happen. He uses logic bound argument to manipulate people and I think its pretty clear that he set up that talk with Hashirama knowing that Madara was listening in. 

Not that I think Hashirama's killing himself makes sense or Madara going nuts make sense ether. But really the whole thing is Tobirama's fault.


----------



## BiNexus (Mar 27, 2013)

There's no way this _all_ Tobirama's fault. Maybe, morally, Madara should have been made leader as a sign of good will, but logically it doesn't make sense for him to be. In addition, if the majority didn't want to follow Madara, then they just...wouldn't, and there would more unrest between factions that believe he should be Hokage, and those that don't. It's weird how we knock some characters for not being realistic _enough_ and here is Tobirama doing something very realistic and logical.

I don't even think we, ourselves, would be so inclined as to vote in someone into office who is more susceptible to emotional outbursts and mood swings that could potentially cloud his judgement.


----------



## Uckataguma (Mar 27, 2013)

Tobirama is only realistic man in this bunch of unrealistic idiots.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Mar 27, 2013)

You can't fault Tobirama for the actions of Madara. Tobirama can only be faulted for his bigotry and the faults begin with his practices as Hokage; yet that doesn't justify any notion of violent retaliation on the Uchiha as a whole either, it just puts it into context.


----------



## Hydro Spiral (Mar 27, 2013)

His decsisions weren't in the right.

But TBH I think there's fault on both parties here.

To some degree, anyway.


----------



## Olympian (Mar 27, 2013)

Jeαnne said:


> how was he right?
> 
> we cant say if madara was already evil, or turned evil after the issue



He was already spying on them. Frankly, it`s everybody`s fault. 

You can`t make a threesome unless you lay down some grounded rules. Jealously is the main one.


----------



## Kusa (Mar 27, 2013)

Tobiramas reason for not wanting someone like Madara to be Hokage is somehow understandable but his treatment towards Uchihas clearly not.He put every Uchiha in the same bowl as Madara Uchiha only because there was a possibility that few of them could become like Madara.Making a whole Clan suffer because  of one guy is wrong,no matter how you look at  it .


----------



## Dark (Mar 27, 2013)

adee said:


> I disagree, he's not at all pragmatic. Hashirama with his idealism is much more pragmatic. If you want stability in a village, you have to be less authoritative, yes but you don't have to be completely "democratic" either. *Considering the Senjus won the first round, they had no reason to not cede a little to Uchiha even though the Uchiha were scared enough to vote for Hashirama. The simple action of making Madara the hokage would have saved the village from much future anguish*.


Agreed. 



Turrin said:


> Tobirama is the villain, he's the one who cause all of this shit to happen. He uses logic bound argument to manipulate people and I think its pretty clear that he set up that talk with Hashirama knowing that Madara was listening in.
> 
> Not that I think Hashirama's killing himself makes sense or Madara going nuts make sense ether. But really the whole thing is Tobirama's fault.



Again, agreed I also like to add that its a pretty obvious lie when Tobirama said he wasn't kneading chakra at that moment, in one word he is a dickhead.


----------



## ch1p (Mar 27, 2013)

He's in the middle.


----------



## iJutsu (Mar 27, 2013)

He was badass. No point in explaining it. People will hate him regardless, no matter what logic you use.


----------



## king81992 (Mar 27, 2013)

Tobirama way of thinking was not right,but Madara andt the actions of other Uchiha  in the present proved him right.If he was the monster people are making him out to be he would have killed the Uchiha after he bacame Hokage,which he did not do.This poll needs a third option.


----------



## auem (Mar 27, 2013)

finally Kishi created a character,opinion about whom is split right from the middle..


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Mar 27, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Tobirama is the villain, he's the one who cause all of this shit to happen. He uses logic bound argument to manipulate people and I think its pretty clear that he set up that talk with Hashirama knowing that Madara was listening in.


You talk as if its not possible or even more sensible to think that Tobirama states the logical because its just how he is and not to manipulate people. Theres no reason to believe he lies about only wanting to protect the village and its never implied hes using his logical arguments to manipulate, all hes doing is giving advice. Orochimaru manipulates people with logical arguments and its quite clear that he is doing so when he does it, such is not the case with Tobirama.



> Not that I think Hashirama's killing himself makes sense or Madara going nuts make sense ether. But really the whole thing is Tobirama's fault.


It is Madara's fault for overreacting. It is basically like one country in our world using another countries wariness of them as reason to start a war. He made a huge assumption that Tobirama's word meant that Tobirama would commit Uchiha genocide once he became Hokage, when even after Madara attacked the village and gave Tobirama much more reason not to trust the Uchiha all he did was segregate them while still giving them a position of power. 

As for the whole thing about sending them on more dangerous missions, was this ever even confirmed? If I remember right, this was something Obito/Tobi said and while I don't automatically assume he is lying about that part, until its confirmed its best not to take him at his word. The segregation thing has been proven true by Tobirama's confirmation, though he did seem sincere in wanting to put them to a task that he thought they excelled with in the police force.


----------



## Helios (Mar 27, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Tobirama is the villain, he's the one who cause all of this shit to happen. He uses logic bound argument to manipulate people and I think its pretty clear that he set up that talk with Hashirama knowing that Madara was listening in.
> 
> Not that I think Hashirama's killing himself makes sense or Madara going nuts make sense ether. But really the whole thing is Tobirama's fault.



With logic you can only agree or disagree.You cant manipulate someone with logic.There is nothing dishonest with logic.

Nice effort to cover Madara's need to eavesdrop his trusted friend talking with his brother though.


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Mar 27, 2013)

His hand in Madara's attitude was passive. Madara literally turned bad just because Tobirama didn't trust him. Confirming Tobirama's suspicions. 
Honestly Tobirama didn't do anything wrong.


----------



## Alaude (Mar 27, 2013)

He's awesome


----------



## gabzilla (Mar 27, 2013)

Danzou got his bigot ways from him, I see.


----------



## SakurasIndecision (Mar 27, 2013)

adee said:


> I disagree, he's not at all pragmatic. Hashirama with his idealism is much more pragmatic. If you want stability in a village, you have to be less authoritative, yes but you don't have to be completely "democratic" either. Considering the Senjus won the first round, they had no reason to not cede a little to Uchiha even though the Uchiha were scared enough to vote for Hashirama. The simple action of making Madara the hokage would have saved the village from much future anguish.



You make the assumption that the Uchiha voted for Hashirama because they were scared.  Could it be that they thought Hashirama would make a better leader?  Madara has already said that many young Uchiha don't trust him.  Hashirama tries to install Madara as leader not because he believes it would be best for the village, but it would be best for Madara.  

I agree with you that giving Madara some recognition would've gone a long way toward keeping the peace among the Uchiha.  I think, however, that the voice of the village as a whole, Uchiha included, asked for Hashirama to be their leader.


----------



## Sunspear7 (Mar 27, 2013)

First of all, I don't hate Tobirama or Madara. I actually like both of them as characters. You need to look at the situation from their points of view and you will see they make some valid points. 

Tobirama killed Izuna. Yes, it was a tough era and anyone could be killed on the battleground. Senju killed Uchiha and Uchiha killed Senju. Tobirama lost his brothers to Uchiha too, but it wasn't Madara who killed them as far as I know. Izuna was possibly the most important person in the world for Madara. Trying to get on with your brother's killer would be hard as hell, especially if that person was still talking shit about you and your clan. You might agree he could stop taking it so personally, but it is something deeply personal and hard to let go.

Tobirama didn't want Madara to be the Hokage. According to him, majority of the village didn't trust Madara, including his own clan. This distrust is not Tobirama's fault, but Madara's own actions. In case of a democratic election, Madara wouldn't be chosen. Wouldn't it be stupid to disrupt the fragile balance in a newly founded village by choosing someone noone trusted as a leader? You need stability and a leader that everyone can believe in at that stage, unfortunately others thought Madara wasn't that.

IMO both Madara and Tobirama sacrificed important things for Konoha (brothers, pride, etc), however Tobirama was acknowledged, respected and in the line for leadership; while Madara basically got nothing in the end except for Hashirama's friendship.

If it wasn't for Hashirama, Madara would never agree to the founding of Konoha. I think most of the Uchiha would eventually join Senju, but it wouldn't be good enough to attract other powerful clans to the village. So the bond between Hashirama and Madara lead to the foundation of Konoha, but in the end it wasn't enough to keep Madara in the village.


----------



## KingBoo (Mar 27, 2013)

he's one of those people that causes major problems and gets away with it


----------



## O-ushi (Mar 27, 2013)

After this chapter the way I saw it, Tobirama is prejudice to a certain extent towards the Uchiha but "righteous vindicator?" Its more like Tobirama put out a self fulfilling prophecy. His prejudice and lack of faith indirectly influenced the actions that Madara and the Uchiha would make later on down the line. 

Despite this I am not saying that Madara is any better either, even though he trusts Hashirama because of there interactions as children, he is still has lingering feelings of prejudice towards other members of the Senju like Tobirama. Hashirama despite his best intentions is still stuck in the old "system"  and Madara fear of what might happen to his clan if Hashirama stopped being Hokage and being rejected by his own clan pushed him over the edge. Madara's own actions afterward agaisnt Konoha afterwards only just worsened Tobirama views on the Uchiha.


----------



## Dark (Mar 27, 2013)

SakurasIndecision said:


> You make the assumption that the Uchiha voted for Hashirama because they were scared.  Could it be that they thought Hashirama would make a better leader?  Madara has already said that many young Uchiha don't trust him. * Hashirama tries to install Madara as leader not because he believes it would be best for the village, but it would be best for Madara.  *
> 
> I agree with you that giving Madara some recognition would've gone a long way toward keeping the peace among the Uchiha.  I think, however, that the voice of the village as a whole, Uchiha included, asked for Hashirama to be their leader.



Actually it does sound like the best for the village as well, because after all if Madara didn't become to what he is nothing such as Akatsuki, Kyubi's attack (and therefore the Uchicha massacre) and Juubei's revival would have had happened.


----------



## Chaos Hokage (Mar 27, 2013)

Sunspear7 said:


> First of all, I don't hate Tobirama or Madara. I actually like both of them as characters. You need to look at the situation from their points of view and you will see they make some valid points.
> 
> Tobirama killed Izuna. Yes, it was a tough era and anyone could be killed on the battleground. Senju killed Uchiha and Uchiha killed Senju. Tobirama lost his brothers to Uchiha too, but it wasn't Madara who killed them as far as I know. Izuna was possibly the most important person in the world for Madara. Trying to get on with your brother's killer would be hard as hell, especially if that person was still talking shit about you and your clan. You might agree he could stop taking it so personally, but it is something deeply personal and hard to let go.
> 
> ...



I agree with this.


----------



## ImSerious (Mar 27, 2013)

Everything he says is correct. Are Uchiha's not crazy evil psychopaths? Hell the last page says enough.


Why so butthurt uchihafans?


----------



## RBL (Mar 27, 2013)

he is awesome, he is a dick and douche though

lol tobirama is the kind of character that hates everyone that is the reason i like him haha.


----------



## B.o.t.i (Mar 27, 2013)

Tobirama does the right thing every time.He just keeps it real.Madara is a liability cant keep liabilitys around.


----------



## J★J♥ (Mar 27, 2013)

Are you stupid ? 
Uchiha is not a RACE. Its family which enjoys i*c*st, killing of their siblings and has genetical affinity to brain diseases.


----------



## shyakugaun (Mar 27, 2013)

KingBoo said:


> he's one of those people that causes major problems and gets away with it



this, its ridiculous really


----------



## Yakkai (Mar 27, 2013)

Tobirama is my favorite hokage.


----------



## Psychic (Mar 27, 2013)

I think what it shows here is that different people have different ideals of what peace and a perfect world is. I think Madara in his old age realizes this and that is why he wants to trap everyone in a gengjutsu, so that they can make up their own ideal world. Tobirama's ideal world is probably one without any Uchihas. He is his father's son and carries on his father's will, one of hatred and prejudice towards the Uchihas.

Tobirama was a scientist, and he is very logical in his reasoning. Yet science can be manipulated by the wielder to find only what he wants to find, and if you look hard enough for something, you will eventually find it. In this case, Tobi only looked for the negativity associated with the sharingan, and failed to produce any positive result with his studies. Is he a good son? Yes, though the ideals and logic of your parents, may not always be right. Also, his life experiences made him the man he is. Is he a good person? No one is entirely good or entirely evil. I know stories, manga, and movies have all portray a person, in the past, as either one or the other, but the truth is that one is not entirely one or the other. IMO, a person is like a yin/yang, where both good and evil resonates within them, and there is a constant fight for domination, of which one is not victor for too long as it is constantly spinning...this...is harmony. He is a hero to his Senju clan but trash to the Uchiha clan. If it was peace that he was seeking, than segregation was the wrong way to go about it...as only love can kill hatred, and only hatred can breed more hatred. I believe Tobirama never wanted peace with the Uchiha. He was his father's son, and only wanted to finish his father's work, which was annihilating the Uchiha Clan.


----------



## ShadowReij (Mar 27, 2013)

A dick.  The man is  just a hater, and that while yes he has reasons refuses to look at things from different perspectives. His father's son that's for sure.


----------



## Jin-E (Mar 27, 2013)

Basically the same way i view Danzou. He fills a badly needed position in this manga as the hardass pragmatic stepping-on-corpses douche. And his character design is awesome, i'll admit.

But he's definitely no favorite of mine overall.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Mar 27, 2013)

Psychic said:


> I think what it shows here is that different people have different ideals of what peace and a perfect world is. I think Madara in his old age realizes this and that is why he wants to trap everyone in a gengjutsu, so that they can make up their own ideal world. Tobirama's ideal world is probably one without any Uchihas. He is his father's son and carries on his father's will, one of hatred and prejudice towards the Uchihas.
> 
> Tobirama was a scientist, and he is very logical in his reasoning. Yet science can be manipulated by the wielder to find only what he wants to find, and if you look hard enough for something, you will eventually find it. In this case, Tobi only looked for the negativity associated with the sharingan, and failed to produce any positive result with his studies. Is he a good son? Yes, though the ideals and logic of your parents, may not always be right. Also, his life experiences made him the man he is. Is he a good person? No one is entirely good or entirely evil. I know stories, manga, and movies have all portray a person, in the past, as either one or the other, but the truth is that one is not entirely one or the other. IMO, a person is like a yin/yang, where both good and evil resonates within them, and there is a constant fight for domination, of which one is not victor for too long as it is constantly spinning...this...is harmony. He is a hero to his Senju clan but trash to the Uchiha clan. If it was peace that he was seeking, than segregation was the wrong way to go about it...as only love can kill hatred, and only hatred can breed more hatred. I believe Tobirama never wanted peace with the Uchiha. He was his father's son, and only wanted to finish his father's work, which was annihilating the Uchiha Clan.



That's not science at all.


----------



## Amatérasu’s Son (Mar 27, 2013)

The answer is yes.

Which?

Both.

He's not a righteous vindicator, but he did have the general facts on his side.

He's a racist asshole, but not beyond trying to work through it.

I think that Tobirama honestly thought that making them the police was a good gesture and would do great things for the clan.

Tobirama's problem in the grand scheme is that he refused as far as we know to try and get to know an Uchiha personally. And specifically he didn't even give Madara a chance. Tobirama looked at Madara and saw ENEMY in big bold neon letters. It's like an RPG. All of you allies have blue names and life bars over their heads. When Tobirama looks at Madara he always sees a red name and life bar.

Tobirama at this stage of the story doesn't even look like he was willing to try to make it work with Madara and the Uchiha. And that was a mistake. There's no evidence he tried to make a personal connection which is necessary when dealing with people.



O-ushi said:


> After this chapter the way I saw it, Tobirama is prejudice to a certain extent towards the Uchiha but "righteous vindicator?" Its more like Tobirama put out a self fulfilling prophecy. His prejudice and lack of faith indirectly influenced the actions that Madara and the Uchiha would make later on down the line.
> 
> Despite this I am not saying that Madara is any better either, even though he trusts Hashirama because of there interactions as children, he is still has lingering feelings of prejudice towards other members of the Senju like Tobirama. Hashirama despite his best intentions is still stuck in the old "system"  and Madara fear of what might happen to his clan if Hashirama stopped being Hokage and being rejected by his own clan pushed him over the edge. Madara's own actions afterward agaisnt Konoha afterwards only just worsened Tobirama views on the Uchiha.


Agree 


Yakkai said:


> Tobirama is my favorite hokage.



Which is hilarious if you look back. Do you guys remember when Tobirama was viewed as Hashirama's second best name lost to the history books irrelevant little brother. Man how things change.


----------



## Vanadius (Mar 27, 2013)

Tobirama is bad.  He's a dark grey kind of character, much like the two remaining Elders.  He's not completely  and overtly evil like Danzo, or Orochimaru.   He's most definitely a bigoted asshole, and makes no apologies about it.  Even his own brother, who's practically the closest thing to a Saint in this manga, is frequently exasperated with his behavior.  

So yes, I went with the "Spawn of Satan" option, but I think "Massive Racist Asshole" fits the bill perfectly.


----------



## NO (Mar 27, 2013)

Psychic said:


> Tobirama was a scientist



Hahahahahaha. 

And the poll is 50-50, this thread is going places.


----------



## Sennin of Hardwork (Mar 27, 2013)

A good guy but at the same time the most gray character in the manga.


----------



## Kazuya Mishima (Mar 27, 2013)

He was the best Hokage the village could have had. The uchiha proved themselves to be evil scum. He was just aware of it before anyone else.


----------



## sasuke sakura (Mar 27, 2013)

Ass hole if he wasn't such bastard toward madara and at least be kind madara wouldn't acted like that


----------



## Doge (Mar 27, 2013)

Tobirama was a good guy, why?  Because he could clearly see that the Uchihas by nature were not a safe group of people.  They develop mental issues if they lose someone they love, which is guaranteed to happen, and they spiral down into a nutcase status.

He wasn't just being a run of the mill racist, he saw that the Uchiha clan's blood legitimately made them a threat.  Not only that, but he is willing to go to the village's desires instead of rolling with Hashirama's feel good politics.  What difference does a candidate's emotional status make when you are the ones being governed?  It would be selfish to ignore what the village says and rule with an iron fist, neglecting anyone who proposes a different idea.


----------



## Kage (Mar 27, 2013)

Kuromaku said:


> He's a pragmatic dickhead who does think things through. Kishimoto seems to go out of his way to make him look like the bad guy when a lot of what he says makes sense.
> 
> Hokage? Make it a democratic process. It's the only way to ensure that others will cooperate with the whole village thing.
> 
> ...



more or less. I think his "dickish" attitude was a necessary evil to off-set Hashirama's.


----------



## Fiona (Mar 27, 2013)

In the end Tobirama was _Right_ so I dont really see what all the fuss is about. 

Its about as black and white as you can get. 

He believed that given the right circumstances the Uchiha would rise up against the Village and its People. 

_Which they did_


Less Racist Bigot amd more Realistic expectations to me.


----------



## Addy (Mar 27, 2013)

He suffers from uchiha butthurt syndrome


----------



## KnightGhost (Mar 27, 2013)

Fiona said:


> In the end Tobirama was _Right_ so I dont really see what all the fuss is about.
> 
> Its about as black and white as you can get.
> 
> ...



You mean madara was right?

Tobirama became hoakge and shortly after the Uchiha found themselfs competely distanced from the village and realized what was happening to them TOO LATE.

"There days are numbered"


also if you talk to some people hitlers fears of jews are logical So i wouldn't talk so prideful about haveing such a high capacity for racism


----------



## Olympian (Mar 27, 2013)

KnightGhost said:


> Yo
> also if you talk to some people hitlers fears of jews are logical So i wouldn't talk so prideful about haveing such a high capacity for racism



Seriously, some of you should never be allowed to draw comparasions like that. I keep asking you and you keep dodging, where is the racism here?

We are talking of two warrior clans that have been at each other`s skin for years.  That`s it. How you go from that to Hitler creating a bullshit excuse to justify extermination to steal the Jew`s economical power for they`r own means is beyond me. 

Last I read, Toribama never segregated the Uchiha like that. He kept them on watch, surely, coming from his past prejudice, which is a character flaw, but Hitler, really? 

What are some of you even talking about?


----------



## Jay. (Mar 27, 2013)

inb4 fiona reply


----------



## Fiona (Mar 27, 2013)

KnightGhost said:


> also if you talk to some people hitlers fears of jews are logical So i wouldn't talk so prideful about haveing such a high capacity for racism



Did you really just compare Tobirama's justified Fear that a Warrior clan that derives power from Hatred would rise up against the Village and its people


TO 


Hitlers completely unjustified Fear of a peaceful people and their customs? 








Jay. said:


> inb4 fiona reply



Jay is love


----------



## ShadowReij (Mar 27, 2013)

Fiona said:


> In the end Tobirama was _Right_ so I dont really see what all the fuss is about.
> 
> Its about as black and white as you can get.
> 
> ...



But he was the one that set those conditions up.


----------



## Jeαnne (Mar 27, 2013)

Fiona said:


> In the end Tobirama was _Right_ so I dont really see what all the fuss is about.
> 
> Its about as black and white as you can get.
> 
> ...


It was exacly Tobirama's behavior that has lead things to what he feared.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Mar 27, 2013)

We have been given no indication that the Uchiha after Nidaime's reign tried anything BUT violence. Hashirama went out of his way to make them all feel welcome, you cannot blame Tobirama for anything during a time which he had no official power, Hashi would have never let him persecute the Uchiha.

You can only blame Tobirama at this point for being a bigot, Madara's actions are all his own responsibility and he too had his hand in making it hard for his clan.


----------



## Karyu Endan (Mar 27, 2013)

Not answering the poll because he's in a realm of grey that is not present within the poll; he is by no means a good guy, not at all, but he had justifiable reasons for all his dickery that elevate him beyond the pure evil scumbags seen in this series. And by that I mean Hidan.

To answer the O.P.'s question:

Massive Racist Asshole or Righteous Vindicator?

Both.


----------



## kuruizaki (Mar 27, 2013)

^ Tobirama is a good leader minus the fluff of other hokages. 

his fear of the uchihas, especially madara, is legitimate. lol, *@Seto*'s right. Madara brought about his own downfall.


----------



## Karyu Endan (Mar 27, 2013)

kuruizaki said:


> ^ Tobirama is a good leader minus the fluff of other hokages.
> 
> his fear of the uchihas, especially madara, is legitimate. lol, *@Seto*'s right. Madara brought about his own downfall.



Oh I agree.

Except discrimination of any kind, even if justifiable, puts a bad taste in my mouth. All I am blaming Tobirama of is being a bigot. That just takes a lot of points off in my book.


----------



## Olympian (Mar 28, 2013)

Fiona said:


> Did you really just compare Tobirama's justified Fear that a Warrior clan that derives power from Hatred would rise up against the Village and its people
> 
> 
> TO
> ...



Yeah, he did and I bet he won`t  seriously reply back. 

The insanity


----------



## CyberianGinseng (Mar 28, 2013)

Since Uchiha isn't a race then no. Whether or not he's righteous or an asshole is up for opinion. However, he's certainly been vindicated. He's no more wrong for hating the same Uchiha who killed his family and who've proven to be unstable than Kirigakure for systematically exterminating the Kaguya or whoever might have hated and killed Juugo's clan for being batshit crazy.


----------



## tupadre97 (Mar 28, 2013)

Kazuya Mishima said:


> He was the best Hokage the village could have had. The uchiha proved themselves to be evil scum. He was just aware of it before anyone else.


Dude are u serious? The only uchiha we no were evil were Madara and maybe Izuna we know nothing else about anyone in the clan.


Fiona said:


> In the end Tobirama was _Right_ so I dont really see what all the fuss is about.
> 
> Its about as black and white as you can get.
> 
> ...



If u mean blaming them for the kyuubi attack then sure ur right. Still doesn't give them reason just to kill ALL of them, thats just way too extreme.


----------



## Yakumo Fujii (Mar 28, 2013)

Wow, I expected this to be unbalanced one way or the other, but it's pretty even.


----------



## Lightzz (Mar 28, 2013)

Tobirama is one of the best characters written in this manga. His personality is awesome. He also was shown to create some of the most strong jutsu in the manga. Also the fact that he came up with the idea of the village and democracy was cool. He also does a good job at keeping the emotional Hashi in line with his rational arguments. Haters are gonna hate.  He had his reasons for mistrusting the Uchiha but he tried his best by them by making them the police. The third could have ended the segregation if they felt so bad about it. Madara and Obito were the real reason the clan was destroyed so I don't get why people bash him so much.


----------



## Last Rose of Summer (Mar 28, 2013)

Senju supremacist. 

Someone who can't stand that Hashirama succeeded in convincing Madara of the Alliance. Someone who was biased enough to start destroying the peace between Uchiha and Senju even before the Hokage election and decided to do anything in his power to marginalize former enemies because he was afraid of their power.

The effing databook says that during his reign the Senju voice in Konoha grew louder. Now we can see how and why.


----------



## takL (Mar 28, 2013)

why there isnt an 'ignoble man' option. or a  laughing stock one.
he isnt really a good guy or an evil. hes like the fuckin mob who illtreated lil naruto just for being a jinchuriki. 
stay away from jinchurikis they are no good, when they recieve great mental shocks, they get possessed by their biju (evil). 
ring a bell?
wonder what attitude he assumed toward his sister in law.


----------



## Naruto (Mar 28, 2013)

He and Madara were the same.

Except Madara was fucking crazy >_>


----------



## Last Rose of Summer (Mar 28, 2013)

Naruto said:


> He and Madara were the same.
> 
> Except Madara was fucking crazy >_>



I wouldn't call senile a person who created Edo Tensei.


----------



## Don-kun (Mar 28, 2013)

Hashirama is an idiot for wanting to kill himself because Madara asked him, Hashirama has being shown to be more devoted to Madara from what Madara was to him(Similar to Guy and Kakashi friendship), in some way it was shown that Hashirama was a naive idealism but he was a naive idealism with good heart and strong hope that the era of constant battle someday would come to an end and maybe one day they could live in harmony, the problem was the mistrust between Tobirama and Madara who refuse to let go of the past and Madara weak minded ability to make Tobirama eat his word.

Many loves to claim that Tobirama was the one who caused all this, but these mentalities are more about favoritism than Manga fact, Tobirama was the fuel and Madara was the fire where connived they create a weapon of mas destruction, in other words if Madara worked the way his best friend asked him to do and win the people trust over none of this would happen and Tobirama would look like an stuck up idiot living in the past, sadly Madara's decision only give validation to Tobiramas claims.

That's why I blame both of them because if Madara was that great leader Hashirama saw in him, he would never be the fire of Tobirama's fuel.


----------



## son_michael (Mar 28, 2013)

He's a good guy. He loves the village and he's smart. You can't blame him for acting the way he did towards Madara and the Uchiha. 

It was Madara's childish decision to run away that started this whole cycle. If he would have stayed, Tobirama might not have been the second Hokage


----------



## Nagato Sennin (Mar 28, 2013)

Hirashima was actually about to kill himself. Yahiko at least had a reason lol


----------



## Last Rose of Summer (Mar 28, 2013)

son_michael said:


> He's a good guy. He loves the village and he's smart. You can't blame him for acting the way he did towards Madara and the Uchiha.
> 
> It was Madara's childish decision to run away that started this whole cycle. If he would have stayed, Tobirama might not have been the second Hokage



You are stating we can not hold him accountable for his actions and decisions? Is Tobirama incapacitated or something?

Yes, Madara is totally at fault that Tobirama wanted to convince Hashi not to trust Uchiha because of rumours of them getting power-up from hatred.

Madara didn't start the cycle of hatred.

On the contrary: Madara was sure that Tobirama has excellent chances to succeed his brother.

BTW: is this something bad had Tobirama not become Hokage, but Torifu for example?


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Mar 28, 2013)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> You are stating we can not hold him accountable for his actions and decisions? Is Tobirama incapacitated or something?
> 
> Yes, Madara is totally at fault that Tobirama wanted to convince Hashi not to trust Uchiha because rumorous of them getting power-up from hatred.
> 
> ...



Madara too was prejudiced against the Senju the same, he took it to a further extreme obviously. 



Last Rose of Summer said:


> I wouldn't call senile a person who created Edo Tensei.



[YOUTUBE]G2y8Sx4B2Sk[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Mar 28, 2013)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> If you have problem with me, then speak or shut up if your only purpose is to troll.



Well the first problem is you've been extremely erratic and overemotonal ( a bit of something I find amusing), labeling anyone that doesn't appear to give Tobirama "satisfactory" condemnation as an "Uchiha hater". Furthermore you hold a hypocritical standard in condemning Tobirama yet making excuses for Madara's actions and behavior, failing to realize that they are both products of this "cycle of hatred". The bigotry you see in Tobirama is present all the same in Madara and it came about due to similar reasons. Madara was not the only one that lost a sibling, and he was not the only one that saw death of those close to him, yet he handled it terribly. Finally, it's individuals like you that only wish to make it another stupid contest of Uchiha vs. Senju, unilaterally taking one side regardless of the circumstance only wanting to act like one side is at fault here.

Tobirama's bigotry without power is just that at this point, he has no power. Furthermore in spite of it the last thing you do with a bigot is prove them right. Madara could have done so much more to humiliate and discredit Tobirama had followed that. Yet here's the problem, Madara was prejudiced as well. Even with the contradiction in Hashirama, he sought affirmation of his own biases by Tobirama's words and in turn proving Tobirama right about him, and further cementing Tobirama's bigotry against the Uchiha as a whole. Ultimately his resolve and willingness for peace was paper thin.


----------



## Last Rose of Summer (Mar 28, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Well the first problem is you've been extremely erratic and overemotonal ( a bit of something I find amusing), labeling anyone that doesn't appear to give Tobirama "satisfactory" condemnation as an "Uchiha hater". Furthermore you hold a hypocritical standard in condemning Tobirama yet making excuses for Madara's actions and behavior, failing to realize that they are both products of this "cycle of hatred". The bigotry you see in Tobirama is present all the same in Madara and it came about due to similar reasons. Madara was not the only one that lost a sibling, and he was not the only one that saw death of those close to him, yet he handled it terribly. Finally, it's individuals like you that only wish to make it another stupid contest of Uchiha vs. Senju, unilaterally taking one side regardless of the circumstance only wanting to act like one side is at fault here.



Oh, no I only call Uchiha haters those who enjoy Tobirama's character due to his hatred towards Uchiha and praise him for his actions. That's something subtly different of what you are accusing me of.

You may have not noticed this in this chap, but Madara has regained  trust in Hashi/Senju, giving a new try in forming the Alliance between clans only for it to be destroyed by Tobirama's ill will.

Let it also by known to you that I've always taken side against Konoha. This was true before Tobirama revelations as dick and it is true in the present. My despise of  the Senju hipocrisy has never changed. I was against them all the time, so your notion of me taking sides is a little too late.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Mar 28, 2013)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> Oh, no I only call Uchiha haters those who enjoy Tobirama's character due to his hatred towards Uchiha and praise him for his actions. That's something subtly different of what you are accusing me of.



You call anyone that doesn't give the proper condemnation of the Senju/Uzumaki "side" Uchiha haters, or anyone that does condemn an Uchiha character. It's ridiculous.



> You may have not noticed this in this chap, but Madara has regained  trust in Hashi/Senju, giving a new try in forming the Alliance between clans only for it to be destroyed by Tobirama's ill will.



No, only in Hashirama and out of some past sentimentality of their former friendship. It was unstable from the start. We have seen a few times already how easily Madara's shifts. It only took Tobirama's own words and Madara's already flimsy resolve for him to take the measures we know he eventually will come to.

Tobirama was right in his judgment of Madara, but he was wrong to apply that judgment to the Uchiha as a whole. A small contrast to that is how Madara is able to see Hashirama as an individual but he too still had prejudices against the Senju applying what he saw in Tobirama to the clan as a whole. 



> Let it also by known to you that I've always taken side against Konoha. This was true before Tobirama revelations as dick and it is true in the present. My despise of  the Senju hipocrisy has never changed. I was against them all the time, so your notion of me taking sides is a little too late



Which is absolutely idiotic. People like you have taken a matter in the manga to a personal level. Just taking one side or the other in spite of the facts.


----------



## son_michael (Mar 28, 2013)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> Oh, no I only call Uchiha haters those who enjoy Tobirama's character due to his hatred towards Uchiha and praise him for his actions. That's something subtly different of what you are accusing me of.
> 
> You may have not noticed this in this chap, but Madara has regained  trust in Hashi/Senju, giving a new try in forming the Alliance between clans only for it to be destroyed by Tobirama's ill will.
> 
> Let it also by known to you that I've always taken side against Konoha. This was true before Tobirama revelations as dick and it is true in the present. My despise of  the Senju hipocrisy has never changed. I was against them all the time, so your notion of me taking sides is a little too late.



this is so stupid. How are you gonna fault Tobirama for having ill will?  How are you gonna fault him for having a conversation with his brother IN PRIVATE. 


I could see if he was spreading false rumors, trying to sabotage Madara, trying to kill Madara etc I could see bashing him for actively trying to destroy the treaty, for perpetuating hate on both sides or whatever...but the man simply made a logical argument to his brother in private, and damn it, the man is allowed to have his own opinion.  Especially after how his life has been thanks to the uchiha and Madara, all of which was his former enemy.


----------



## Last Rose of Summer (Mar 28, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Tobirama's bigotry without power is just that  at this point, he has no power. Furthermore in spite of it the last  thing you do with a bigot is prove them right. Madara could have done so  much more to humiliate and discredit Tobirama had followed that. Yet  here's the problem, Madara was prejudiced as well. Even with the  contradiction in Hashirama, he sought affirmation of his own biases by  Tobirama's words and in turn proving Tobirama right about him, and  further cementing Tobirama's bigotry against the Uchiha as a whole.  Ultimately his resolve and willingness for peace was paper thin.



You  are lying. Madara never called Senju clan names and while (after  reconciliation with hashi) in the Village he has never tried to  undermine their position.

Funny, but Madara's resolve at bringing peace gave birth to the other  interpration of the tablet: the Moon Eye's Plan. Something Madara stayed  loyal to for decades and you call his resolve paper thin...




Seto Kaiba said:


> You call anyone that doesn't give the proper condemnation of the Senju/Uzumaki "side" Uchiha haters, or anyone that does condemn an Uchiha character. It's ridiculous.



Quote you liar.



Seto Kaiba said:


> No, only in Hashirama and out of some past sentimentality of their former friendship. It was unstable from the start. We have seen a few times already how easily Madara's shifts. It only took Tobirama's own words and Madara's already flimsy resolve for him to take the measures we know he eventually will come to.



You forgot that Madara's own clan turned against him, which was huge blow to him and further reason to leave Konoha.



Seto Kaiba said:


> Tobirama was right in his judgment of Madara, but he was wrong to apply that judgment to the Uchiha as a whole. A small contrast to that is how Madara is able to see Hashirama as an individual but he too still had prejudices against the Senju.



Tobirama had no idea of Madara's other plan, so naturally Maddy attacking Konoha seemed like insanity to him.

Examples of Madara's prejudices towards Senju clan, please.



Seto Kaiba said:


> Which is absolutely idiotic. People like you have taken a matter in the manga to a personal level. Just taking one side or the other in spite of the facts.



It disturbs you only when someone takes Uchiha side, but not Senju side. How is that not taking a side too?



son_michael said:


> this is so stupid. How are you gonna fault  Tobirama for having ill will?  How are you gonna fault him for having a  conversation with his brother IN PRIVATE.
> 
> 
> I could see if he was spreading false rumors, trying to sabotage Madara,  trying to kill Madara etc I could see bashing him for actively trying  to destroy the treaty, for perpetuating hate on both sides or  whatever...*but the man simply made a logical argument *to his  brother in private, and damn it, the man is allowed to have his own  opinion.  Especially after how his life has been thanks to the uchiha  and Madara, all of which was his former enemy.



Stopped right there. There isn't much sense to talking to someone  who thinks acting on rumours is expression of logical argumentation.


----------



## son_michael (Mar 28, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Tobirama was right in his judgment of Madara, but he was wrong to apply that judgment to the Uchiha as a whole. A small contrast to that is how Madara is able to see Hashirama as an individual but he too still had prejudices against the Senju applying what he saw in Tobirama to the clan as a whole. .



Even then he was right! Look at Obito, Itachi and Sasuke. They're all nuts in their actions, a danger to everyone around them once they "love" something and lose it. 

Tobirama wasn't wrong for saying all Uchiha are as bad as Madara because they all are. Obito was the best of the best, a model for the will of fire, and look how he turned out.

Even Itachi says it, the Uchiha are a cursed clan. With how strongly Tobirama felt about them, we should praise him for letting them be apart of the village at all. 

Because it's clear he didn't keep them for their power, he kept them to keep the peace, to keep konoha stable and to honor his brother's wishes.






Last Rose of Summer said:


> Stopped right there. There isn't much sense to talking to someone  who thinks acting on rumours is expression of logical argumentation.



wtf are you talking about? Who acted on rumors? Tobirama sure as hell didn't, he knew for a fact that Madara was being ignored by everyone and that everyone wanted peace, that Hashirama should be Hokage because the village as a whole wanted it.


----------



## Last Rose of Summer (Mar 28, 2013)

son_michael said:


> Even then he was right! Look at Obito, Itachi and Sasuke. They're all nuts in their actions, a danger to everyone around them once they "love" something and lose it.
> 
> Tobirama wasn't wrong for saying all Uchiha are as bad as Madara because they all are. Obito was the best of the best, a model for the will of fire, and look how he turned out.
> 
> ...



"The stupid jinchuuriki shouldn't be given a place in society. They can turn into some murderous beast and kill us all. We should  push them away, hate them, mistreat them, because of what they are. Yes, we will be happy once they are dead." Every Villages mentatlity towards people who ensured their safety.



son_michael said:


> wtf are you talking about? Who acted on  rumors? Tobirama sure as hell didn't, he knew for a fact that Madara was  being ignored by everyone and that everyone wanted peace, that  Hashirama should be Hokage because the village as a whole wanted  it.



Fourth and fifth panel:

Minato's

Guess what Tobirama wanted to say to Hashi before his bro said he doesn't like his tone.


----------



## Edward Newgate (Mar 28, 2013)

> Tobirama wasn't wrong for saying all Uchiha are as bad as Madara because they all are.


However, thinking about it... the Uchiha just came out of a constant war against the Senju. Almost all of them should've lost someone close to them, so how come the Senju managed to keep an alliance with such a crazy clan? They seemed sane enough to even support Hashirama.

Although I'd just attribute it to Kishi's bad writing.


----------



## Helios (Mar 28, 2013)

Edward Newgate said:


> However, thinking about it... the Uchiha just came out of a constant war against the Senju. Almost all of them should've lost someone close to them, so how come the Senju managed to keep an alliance with such a crazy clan? They seemed sane enough to even support Hashirama.
> 
> Although I'd just attribute it to Kishi's bad writing.



Hashirama was a charismatic (in the eyes of the world) figure.


----------



## Oberyn Nymeros (Mar 28, 2013)

Tobirama is awesome.

edit: the fuck is with that poll?


----------



## son_michael (Mar 28, 2013)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> "The stupid jinchuuriki shouldn't be given a place in society. They can turn into some murderous beast and kill us all. We should  push them away, hate them, mistreat them, because of what they are. Yes, we will be happy once they are dead." Every Villages mentatlity towards people who ensured their safety.



and? they are completely different from the Uchiha and Tobirama has already been proven correct in his assessment of the uchiha clan as a whole. 

and he had absolutely nothing to do with obito, Itachi and Sasuke's situations.





> Fourth and fifth panel:
> 
> Minato's
> 
> Guess what Tobirama wanted to say to Hashi before his bro said he doesn't like his tone.



 he wasn't going to say anything. He was saying what he was saying with a tone of mistrust and Hashirama didn't like the sound of his mistrust.


There is absolutely no reason for you to invent prejudiced words that Tobirama was going to say, there is no indication of it being nothing more than a conversation with a tone of mistrust and ridicule


----------



## Edward Newgate (Mar 28, 2013)

Helios said:


> Hashirama was a charismatic (in the eyes of the world) figure.


Doesn't matter if all the Uchiha are the same as Madara and Obito, as they should be, if they go crazy when losing their loved ones. But apparently the Uchiha were pretty sane, compared to Madara. They lost their trust in him, didn't want to follow him anymore, they even deserted to join the Senju. That's not how a mental institution of a clan works.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Mar 28, 2013)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> You  are lying. Madara never called Senju clan names and while (after  reconciliation with hashi) in the Village he has never tried to  undermine their position.



He didn't trust the Senju as Tobirama didn't trust the Uchiha. Whom Madara trusted was Hashirama, to an extent. 



> Funny, but Madara's resolve at bringing peace gave birth to the other  interpration of the tablet: the Moon Eye's Plan. Something Madara stayed  loyal to for decades and you call his resolve paper thin...



On actual peace yes it is. He wants an illusion in which he is in complete control of. 



> Quote you liar.



I should elaborate that you tend to think in such a manner, like now. 



> You forgot that Madara's own clan turned against him, which was huge blow to him and further reason to leave Konoha.



Due to his own behavior and actions.



> Tobirama had no idea of Madara's other plan, so naturally Maddy attacking Konoha seemed like insanity to him.



Because it was.



> Examples of Madara's prejudices towards Senju clan, please.




*Spoiler*: __ 











> It disturbs you only when someone takes Uchiha side, but not Senju side. How is that not taking a side too?



You're only proving my point. You can't even see this beyond the false dichotomy you set up for yourself. Everyone has got to be on one side or the other. Considering that it's clear you haven't seen at all, even in the very post you responded to, where I make clear my divide with defenders of Tobirama.


----------



## Last Rose of Summer (Mar 28, 2013)

son_michael said:


> and? they are completely different from the Uchiha and Tobirama has already been proven correct in his assessment of the uchiha clan as a whole.
> 
> and he had absolutely nothing to do with obito, Itachi and Sasuke's situations.



How are they different? When they give into despair and hatred shit happens to them and those around them.

Other than causing their clan's discrimination.



son_michael said:


> he wasn't going to say anything. He was saying what he was saying with a tone of mistrust and Hashirama didn't like the sound of his mistrust.
> 
> 
> There is absolutely no reason for you to invent prejudiced words that Tobirama was going to say, there is no indication of it being nothing more than a conversation with a tone of mistrust and ridicule



_I_ invent prejudiced words?

You must read every second line to come to conclusion that Tobirama's bias is invented by me.

Thankfully Madara _did_ end Tobirama's words that got cut in by Hashi: Tobirama wanted to kill Uchiha clan for the sake of the new built Village.


----------



## takL (Mar 28, 2013)

son_michael said:


> and? they are completely different from the Uchiha and Tobirama has already been proven correct in his assessment of the uchiha clan as a whole.
> 
> and he had absolutely nothing to do with obito, Itachi and Sasuke's situations.



may not itachi or obitos but naruto feels sympathy for sasuke for that reason. imagine if naruto was there listening to edo hokages. hed jump at lord ignoble.

Mentality wise lord ignobles to Uchihas is no different from the fodders toward jinchurikis.


----------



## Helios (Mar 28, 2013)

Edward Newgate said:


> Doesn't matter if all the Uchiha are the same as Madara and Obito, as they should be, if they go crazy when losing their loved ones. But apparently the Uchiha were pretty sane, compared to Madara. They lost their trust in him, didn't want to follow him anymore, they even deserted to join the Senju. That's not how a mental institution of a clan works.



The Uchiha were desperate while Madara wasn't.No one said that the whole clan was crazy anyway.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Mar 28, 2013)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> Thankfully Madara _did_ end Tobirama's words that got cut in by Hashi: Tobirama wanted to kill Uchiha clan for the sake of the new built Village.



This is simply untrue. Tobirama, as been stated numerous times by himself and others, sought to closely observe the Uchiha, keep an eye on them, not eradicate them. Had that truly been his desire he would have done so as Nidaime.


----------



## Last Rose of Summer (Mar 28, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> He didn't trust the Senju as Tobirama didn't trust the Uchiha. Whom Madara trusted was Hashirama, to an extent.



Madara explicitly said that Hashi killing himself will cause him to re-trust in Senju CLAN and Hashi.



Seto Kaiba said:


> On actual peace yes it is. He wants an illusion in which he is in complete control of.



So he is fail? Yes, he failed in finding true peace like Hashi and many people before and after him.

Still he (although misjudged) thinks he will create peace in the only manner possible for humans.



Seto Kaiba said:


> I should elaborate that you tend to think in such a manner, like now.



I asked to quote me on me saying I jump on people for not condamning Tobirama. That topic had nothing to do with Tobirama. You cannot quote it, because I've never said anything like that.



Seto Kaiba said:


> Due to his own behavior and actions.



So? How does this change he was in more difficult position than Tobirama? Tobirama was actually trusted by his bro, seemed to have no problems with his clan, then sure he can talk from the position of power, unlike Madara.



Seto Kaiba said:


> Because it was.



As you wish.



Seto Kaiba said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## son_michael (Mar 28, 2013)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> How are they different? When they give into despair and hatred shit happens to them and those around them.
> 
> Other than causing their clan's discrimination.



The jinchuuriki are individuals who aren't cursed, that was simply the perception of the people based on fear. The uchiha however, are indeed cursed, this is proven.  

furthermore, the uchiha weren't persecuted by the village, it was tobirama who made the decision to segregate them.Everybody else in konoha considered them comrades.





> _I_ invent prejudiced words?



yea you know, like how you just invented that Tobirama was going to say that he wanted the uchiha's dead in his convo with hashirama. as seen below



> Thankfully Madara _did_ end Tobirama's words that got cut in by Hashi: Tobirama wanted to kill Uchiha clan for the sake of the new built Village.



where do you get this shit from? Your hatred for tobirama is out of control.


----------



## Okodi (Mar 28, 2013)

Being a real ninja gets Tobirama disliked by modern people.


----------



## Lightzz (Mar 28, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Well the first problem is you've been extremely erratic and overemotonal ( a bit of something I find amusing), labeling anyone that doesn't appear to give Tobirama "satisfactory" condemnation as an "Uchiha hater". Furthermore you hold a hypocritical standard in condemning Tobirama yet making excuses for Madara's actions and behavior, failing to realize that they are both products of this "cycle of hatred". The bigotry you see in Tobirama is present all the same in Madara and it came about due to similar reasons. Madara was not the only one that lost a sibling, and he was not the only one that saw death of those close to him, yet he handled it terribly. Finally, it's individuals like you that only wish to make it another stupid contest of Uchiha vs. Senju, unilaterally taking one side regardless of the circumstance only wanting to act like one side is at fault here.
> 
> Tobirama's bigotry without power is just that at this point, he has no power. Furthermore in spite of it the last thing you do with a bigot is prove them right. Madara could have done so much more to humiliate and discredit Tobirama had followed that. Yet here's the problem, Madara was prejudiced as well. Even with the contradiction in Hashirama, he sought affirmation of his own biases by Tobirama's words and in turn proving Tobirama right about him, and further cementing Tobirama's bigotry against the Uchiha as a whole. Ultimately his resolve and willingness for peace was paper thin.



This is the most well thought out and rational response I have read on this forum. Kudos to you good sir!


----------



## Last Rose of Summer (Mar 28, 2013)

son_michael said:


> The jinchuuriki are individuals who aren't cursed, that was simply the perception of the people based on fear. The uchiha however, are indeed cursed, this is proven.



Uchihas aren't _cursed_ either. That they are is only Tobirama's perception of their genetical predisposition based on fear, past, bias and his own hatred towards them.



son_michael said:


> furthermore, the uchiha weren't persecuted by the village, it was tobirama who made the decision to segregate them.Everybody else in konoha considered them comrades.



My point is you are just as biased towards Uchiha like Konoha was towards Naruto.



son_michael said:


> yea you know, like how you just invented that Tobirama was going to say that he wanted the uchiha's dead in his convo with hashirama. as seen below
> 
> where do you get this shit from? Your hatred for tobirama is out of control.



alright

Remember: Madara overheard Hashi's conversation with Tobirama.


----------



## Jeαnne (Mar 28, 2013)

takL said:


> may not itachi or obitos but naruto feels sympathy for sasuke for that reason. imagine if naruto was there listening to edo hokages. hed jump at lord ignoble.
> 
> Mentality wise lord ignobles to Uchihas is no different from the fodders toward jinchurikis.


lord ignobles


----------



## Gaawa-chan (Mar 28, 2013)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> Senju supremacist.
> 
> Someone who can't stand that Hashirama succeeded in convincing Madara of the Alliance.



An alliance was Tobirama's idea to begin with!  What the fuck are you talking about? 




Last Rose of Summer said:


> Remember: Madara overheard Hashi's conversation with Tobirama.



Because Madara was spying on them.  And people are trying to pin all the blame and mistrust on Tobirama.


----------



## Last Rose of Summer (Mar 28, 2013)

Gaawa-chan said:


> An alliance was Tobirama's idea to begin with!  What the fuck are you talking about?




Tobirama changed his view on Alliance with the Uchiha the day he went to papi to say with whom Hashirama is meeting. Then he had no qualms or second thoughts about battling Uchiha like he previously called adults to be stupid for doing. 




Gaawa-chan said:


> Because Madara was spying on them.  And people are trying to pin all the blame and mistrust on Tobirama.




Yes, he was spying on them. Like Tobirama spied on lil Hashi and lil Mads. And he heard something that caused him to warn his clan: before they get themselves decimated by Tobirama, they should leave the Village.


----------



## Gaawa-chan (Mar 28, 2013)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> Tobirama changed his view on Alliance with the Uchiha the day he went to papi to say with whom Hashirama is meeting.



Non-sequitor.  If you cannot provide a page that actually shows such a thing, then you're making a baseless assertion.  And it still doesn't change the fact that it was originally his idea.




> Yes, he was spying on them. Like Tobirama spied on lil Hashi and lil Mads. And he heard something that caused him to warn his clan: before they get themselves decimated by Tobirama, they should leave the Village.



Oh, I see.  You would have preferred it if Tobirama had not informed their father that Hashirama was meeting with an enemy, so that Hashirama would have been captured/killed by the Uchihas when Izuna did the same thing.

The circumstances are not comparable at all.  You say Tobirama shouldn't have expressed his opinion?  I say that Tobirama had a right to speak and that Madara shouldn't have been spying on the private conversations of the man you claim he trusted and cooperated with.

And how many people are going to have to say it before you admit it? Tobirama had no intention of slaughtering the Uchihas.  He never said that in this chapter or any other, and he never DID that when he was in charge of the village, when he could have.  Hell, it's been implied that MADARA was more complicit in the slaughter of the Uchihas than Tobirama was!


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Mar 28, 2013)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> Madara explicitly said that Hashi killing himself will cause him to re-trust in Senju CLAN and Hashi.



But it didn't. He only trusted in Hashirama.



> So he is fail? Yes, he failed in finding true peace like Hashi and many people before and after him.



He ran from the fight in contrast to them. He sought to start an illusion of peace, and an illusion of living. 



> Still he (although misjudged) thinks he will create peace in the only manner possible for humans.



Peace in which he has control over. He believes that absolute power is the way, and so he seeks to have that power over everyone. 



> I asked to quote me on me saying I jump on people for not condamning Tobirama. That topic had nothing to do with Tobirama. You cannot quote it, because I've never said anything like that.



To Melas for reference then.



> So? How does this change he was in more difficult position than Tobirama? Tobirama was actually trusted by his bro, seemed to have no problems with his clan, then sure he can talk from the position of power, unlike Madara.



It was Madara's own fault that he was in that position. People, rightfully so, judged him by past deeds and behavior. 



> How cool. You qouted something that was before the "test" Hashirama won. I was asking to show me proof that Madara acted the same way like Tobirama did when the Village was already formed.



The test only had Madara believe briefly in Hashirama's resolve, his faith on peace between the clans was paper thin. I showed you your proof and now you're moving the goalpost. 



> Huh the others are wrong and you are right?



No, just those that have adopted the fanaticism you have.



> I don't see you picking up stupid fights with Senju fans; with Uchiha fans - yes.



Like this for example. "Senju" fans and "Uchiha" fans, the people that have taken the divide in the manga to fandom is something I find completely idiotic.

Oh, and that previous example you were asking for? Thanks for proving my point. You have to try and wedge people's arguments into a false dichotomy that you can't seem to look past. 



> I said those were Madara's words in two last panels:
> 
> alright



Which he was incorrect in. He sought to affirm his biases through Tobirama's words despite Hashirama being around.


----------



## Last Rose of Summer (Mar 28, 2013)

Gaawa-chan said:


> Non-sequitor.  If you cannot provide a page that actually shows such a thing, then you're making a baseless assertion.  And it still doesn't change the fact that it was originally his idea.



Actions speak louder than words, but here are Tobirama's actions and words at once: alright



Gaawa-chan said:


> Oh, I see.  You would have preferred it if Tobirama had not informed their father that Hashirama was meeting with an enemy, so that Hashirama would have been captured/killed by the Uchihas when Izuna did the same thing.
> 
> The circumstances are not comparable at all.  You say Tobirama shouldn't have expressed his opinion?  I say that Tobirama had a right to speak and that Madara shouldn't have been spying on the private conversations of the man you claim he trusted and cooperated with.
> 
> And how many people are going to have to say it before you admit it? Tobirama had no intention of slaughtering the Uchihas.  He never said that in this chapter or any other, and he never DID that when he was in charge of the village, when he could have.  Hell, it's been implied that MADARA was more complicit in the slaughter of the Uchihas than Tobirama was!



It's not a matter of what I preffer. It's the matter of getting on Madara's case for spying, when Tobirama got easily forgiven for the same. The fact that Madara overheard their conversation does not magically make Tobirama a trustable person.

alright

Tobirama didn't call Hashi back to talk on some private matters, but the Village's ones (the meeting with daimyo was about to start). They talked there about politics, something Madara has some right to know about?

Have you forgotten the chap when Tobirama exclaims his delight when he hears Uchiha are dead?

There was a world war going on during his reign: he was a pragmatist, so naturally to have Uchiha fight for Konoha and die for it was better option than to kill them and cut his own firepower. But then he died in war.


----------



## Let'sFightingLove (Mar 28, 2013)

you forgot to include chronic masturbator


----------



## Last Rose of Summer (Mar 28, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> But it didn't. He only trusted in Hashirama.



Madara said he will regain his trust in Senju clan. Period.



Seto Kaiba said:


> He ran from the fight in contrast to them. He sought to start an illusion of peace, and an illusion of living.



What fight are you talking about?



Seto Kaiba said:


> Peace in which he has control over. He believes that absolute power is the way, and so he seeks to have that power over everyone.



That does make him villain. How does it make Tobirama an engel, though? His jutsu was all abbout control of dead people doing his bidding.



Seto Kaiba said:


> To Melas for reference then.



Oh, yes. You would make a nice par who can't prove shit.

Where's the quote?!



Seto Kaiba said:


> It was Madara's own fault that he was in that position. People, rightfully so, judged him by past deeds and behavior.



Yeah, his fault, so he would have to plunge out his eyes out and let himself be killed to satisfy dear Tobirama.



Seto Kaiba said:


> The test only had Madara believe briefly in Hashirama's resolve, his faith on peace between the clans was paper thin. I showed you your proof and now you're moving the goalpost.



You have shown nothing. Madara entered the alliance with Senju, was not interested in Hokage's chair and got duped by Tobirama. Yet it didn't cause him to swear revenge on Senju clan, but specifiacally he sates he wants to fight Hashi, not Tobirama or someone else.



Seto Kaiba said:


> No, just those that have adopted the fanaticism you have.



Care to name a few who I "inspired"?

You try to pose as someone "neutral" when you are in fact hater of Sasuke, Itachi, Madara and the rest of Uchihas. You give yourself to writing about how shitty pairings are shitty with the passion of the prophet procaliming new religion, without giving a fuck of other people's reasoning. And you dare to call me out on fanaticism? Hypocrite.

I hate Konoha, but at least I don't try to make other believe to think otherwise.



Seto Kaiba said:


> Like this for example. "Senju" fans and "Uchiha" fans, the people that have taken the divide in the manga to fandom is something I find completely idiotic.
> 
> Oh, and that previous example you were asking for? Thanks for proving my point. You have to try and wedge people's arguments into a false dichotomy that you can't seem to look past.



Favorite Character(s)
    Anko Mitarashi
    Might Guy
    Killer Bee
    Hiruzen Sarutobi
    Minato Namikaze
*Senju Hashirama*

Favorite Episode/Chapter
    Episode: 80
*Chapter: The one where Sasuke dies*

Did you just say something that you are neutral?



Seto Kaiba said:


> Which he was incorrect in. He sought to affirm his biases through Tobirama's words despite Hashirama being around.



There, there! The meeting was to be held with daimyo and Tobirama and Hashi didn't ask Maddy to come with them and decide together on Konoha's political matter. Here you have bad Maddy spying on them.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Mar 28, 2013)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> Madara said he will regain his trust in Senju clan. Period.



He testing *Hashirama's* resolve.



> What fight are you talking about?



In the rhetorical sense, the fight for true peace.



> That does make him villain. How does it make Tobirama an engel, though? His jutsu was all abbout control of dead people doing his bidding.



UGH. This is the problem with you! I've been condemning Tobirama too, at no point did I claim he was angelic in any sense. 



> Oh, yes. You would make a nice par who can't prove shit.
> Where's the quote?!



It's in this thread.



> Yeah, his fault, so he would have to plunge out his eyes out and let himself be killed to satisfy dear Tobirama.



Nobody trusted Madara though, and this comes from the history of his volatile nature.



> You have shown nothing. Madara entered the alliance with Senju, was not interested in Hokage's chair and got duped by Tobirama. Yet it didn't cause him to swear revenge on Senju clan, but specifiacally he sates he wants to fight Hashi, not Tobirama or someone else.



I've shown that Madara has his own prejudices against the Senju. It was always Hashirama he saw as an individual. He wants to fight Hashirama on his won principles of being a warrior, but he wants to control everyone through absolute power. 



> Care to name a few who I "inspired"?



You haven't inspired anyone, you just have something in common with those particular individuals.



> You try to pose as someone "neutral" when you are in fact hater of Sasuke, Itachi, Madara and the rest of Uchihas.



This only proves my point about you!

I only dislike Obito and Sasuke!

Madara and Itachi? The former I actually like as a villain because he fulfills his role suitably. While I am disappointed in Itachi's direction, and think it turned things into a mess I don't hate him at all. 

Thank you for proving my point in the most clear way anyone could though.

*HE DISLIKES TWO CHARACTERS THAT HAPPENED TO BE UCHIHA! SENJU FAN! DISREGARD THE OTHER TWO IT'S NOT CONVENIENT FOR ME!*



> You give yourself to writing about how shitty pairings are shitty with the passion of the prophet procaliming new religion, without giving a fuck of other people's reasoning. And you dare to call me out on fanaticism? Hypocrite.



See above. You are so frustrated you can't wedge me into your false dichotomies that you wound up trying to anyways! That is the mark of true fanaticism.



> I hate Konoha, but at least I don't try to make other believe to think otherwise.



I don't hate Konoha, just certain individuals within it. I don't hate Uchiha as a whole, just two very specific individuals. 



> Favorite Character(s)
> Anko Mitarashi
> Might Guy
> Killer Bee
> ...



OK? You just are only proving my point about that fanaticism of yours.

*OOHHH!!!! SEE HE LIKE A SENJU CHARACTER SO THAT MUST MEAN HE LIKES ALL SENJU! I KNEW IT SENJU FAN! *

Let's just ignore that I don't like Naruto Uzumaki (hint hint he's a Senju) because that is _really_ going to hurt your ridiculous mentality.



> Favorite Episode/Chapter
> Episode: 80
> *Chapter: The one where Sasuke dies*
> 
> Did you just say something that you are neutral?



It's called a joke. Also, because I dislike Sasuke doesn't mean anything towards every other character that is an Uchiha, just the same as my more favorable one towards Hashirama in regards to Senju.

I told you the false dichotomy you have attempted to set up is completely ridiculous.

Although, I noticed I got the "favorite episode" wrong...it's 79 that was my favorite!


----------



## titantron91 (Mar 28, 2013)

Tobirama has "scumbag" written all over his body tissues.


----------



## santanico (Mar 28, 2013)

They're all to blame, no one is innocent with how everything turned out


----------



## AoshiKun (Mar 28, 2013)

He was clearly a racist towards Uchiha.


----------



## Gaawa-chan (Mar 28, 2013)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> Actions speak louder than words, but here are Tobirama's actions and words at once:  Rumour



Yeah, flip back what? One page?  Who was the one who gave up on the chance at an alliance?  Who was the one shrieking "THERE WILL NEVER BE A TRUCE BETWEEN US!!!" right when the chance for an alliance was offered to him? Oh, but Tobirama is totally in the wrong for trying to kill his enemy on the battlefield who just refused to end the battle.  That's just unpardonable.  What a racist slavery-supporting Nazi! 

Let's also ignore the fact that Madara tried to make Hashirama kill his brother or himself 'to earn back his trust' and then _spied on his private conversations anyway._


----------



## Jeαnne (Mar 28, 2013)

I am impressed at how much the forum is divided on this one


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Mar 29, 2013)

That's because you have people refusing to acknowledge that Madara is responsible for his own behavior and actions, and that Tobirama was bigoted in laying his judgment of Madara on the Uchiha as a whole. Him being right about Madara didn't justify his bigoted views towards the clan as a whole. Just the same, it was Madara's own faults that drove him to this point, and he is responsible for his own decisions and actions, Tobirama didn't take his free will.


----------



## auem (Mar 29, 2013)

Jeαnne said:


> lord ignobles



it is the term coined in 2ch....l


----------



## Jeαnne (Mar 29, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> That's because you have people refusing to acknowledge that Madara is responsible for his own behavior and actions, and that Tobirama was bigoted in laying his judgment of Madara on the Uchiha as a whole. Him being right about Madara didn't justify his bigoted views towards the clan as a whole. Just the same, it was Madara's own faults that drove him to this point, and he is responsible for his own decisions and actions, Tobirama didn't take his free will.


i guess the poll lacks the "both fucked up" option 

though its a poll about tobirama only, people are bringing the clash of opinions to it and answering that he was a good guy for the sake of saying that Madara is wrong



auem said:


> it is the term coined in 2ch....l



are they using this for Tobirama?


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 29, 2013)

1. Tobirama was right, and is a bigot.

2. Madara is crazy, and butthurt. 

That being said Madara has every reason to be crazy and butthurt, and tobirama is bigoted for good reason(the Uchiha are fucking crazy all of them) which is proved time and time again. If I was tobirama I would of wiped them out long ago but he actually has restraint, he may be a bigot but that does not mean he is going to go on a killing spree.


----------



## Gaawa-chan (Mar 29, 2013)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> It's not a matter of what I preffer.



Sure it isn't.



> It's the matter of getting on Madara's case for spying, when Tobirama got easily forgiven for the same. The fact that Madara overheard their conversation does not magically make Tobirama a trustable person.



Tobirama gets easily forgiven for spying on that occasion because in that instance it was _a matter of life and death._
Madara should NOT get off for spying on this occasion because he said he would trust and then immediately demonstrated that he didn't mean it, so his whole "Kill your brother or yourself to earn my trust" thing was bullshit.



> Tobirama didn't call Hashi back to talk on some private matters, but the Village's ones (the meeting with daimyo was about to start). They talked there about politics, something Madara has some right to know about?



So if I have a private conversation with my family about Obama, you'd have no qualms with Obama spying on that conversation?



> Have you forgotten the chap when Tobirama exclaims his delight when he hears Uchiha are dead?



Have you forgotten that such a thing didn't actually happen?


Christ, he looks grim. Just because he expected the Uchihas to rebel, that does not mean he WANTED them to rebel so they could be annihilated. 




> There was a world war going on during his reign: he was a pragmatist, so naturally to have Uchiha fight for Konoha and die for it was better option than to kill them and cut his own firepower. But then he died in war.



Tobirama wanted to slaughter the Uchihas?  Give me a link where he says he wanted that done or take your baseless speculations and stick them in your eye.  I have no patience for people who make crap up.


----------



## AoshiKun (Mar 29, 2013)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 1. Tobirama was right, and is a bigot.
> 
> 2. Madara is crazy, and butthurt.
> 
> That being said Madara has every reason to be crazy and butthurt, and tobirama is bigoted for good reason(the Uchiha are fucking crazy all of them) which is proved time and time again. If I was tobirama I would of wiped them out long ago but he actually has restraint, he may be a bigot but that does not mean he is going to go on a killing spree.


Generalize is always wrong no matter how you look to each.
Shisui and mainly Itachi proved to be great Konoha shinobis also most of Uchihas didn't support Madara before Tobira started to segregate them.


----------



## rajin (Mar 29, 2013)

a legendary figure having too few fans and the other one beside MADARA UCHIHA AND TOBI  who shaped the whole series .

he is straight forward and practical and in the world of ninja only blood relations build trust .


----------



## insane111 (Mar 29, 2013)

Tobirama sucks cock by choice.

Nobody gets that reference so I don't know why I'm quoting it


----------



## JiraiyaRIP (Mar 29, 2013)

Jeαnne said:


> I am impressed at how much the forum is divided on this one



Doesn't surprise me one bit. Same shit all over again. Uchiha vs Senju fanboys.. as usual one side lacks intelligence, insight and common sense.


----------



## JiraiyaRIP (Mar 29, 2013)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> I wouldn't call senile a person who created Edo Tensei.



Removed

Anyhow, Tobirama shows a great lack of understanding when he created this jutsu. He did not understand the consequences or he would have destroyed it all together. To play with the boundary between life and death,to go against nature and bestow the death upon the living to me is a sign of greater insanity then Madara ever showed.

This man is a freak of nature. He lacks the power and the great mind of his brother and attempts to solve it by borrowing other peoples' power. The only other ninjas who have shown similar behavior are Orochimaru and Kabuto. Both use other peoples' jutsu, play with the living, steal their lifeforce and probably not coincidentally both also use edo tensei and are the worst psychopath villains in the Narutoverse. At least the Uchiha have human motives like hurt and revenge as a motive for their actions. What do Tobirama, Orochimaru and Kabuto have as an excuse?


----------



## JiraiyaRIP (Mar 29, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Tobirama is the villain, he's the one who cause all of this shit to happen. He uses logic bound argument to manipulate people and I think its pretty clear that he set up that talk with Hashirama knowing that Madara was listening in.
> 
> Not that I think Hashirama's killing himself makes sense or Madara going nuts make sense ether. But really the whole thing is Tobirama's fault.



Exactly, and by being who he is he shows us what is essentially flawed with the "democracy" he preaches. Namely that some people are weak minded and easily manipulated. He is a good example of what happens when democracy fails.

Real world example: Arabian spring. The people threw out their dictators. Free elections are announced. Afterwards in the Mosque people are pushed into voting the Muslim party as the new leadership so they do cause it's "the right thing to do for God", "it's what Allah would do/wants". It doesn't even matter what they stand for as long as they are Muslim. Next thing you know they end up with worse dictators then the ones they originally had cause these are backed by God, the church and fanatically believe in what they do. Happened in Egypt, Libya , Tunesia AND Konoha.


----------



## JiraiyaRIP (Mar 29, 2013)

kresh said:


> Tobirama was a good guy, why?  Because he could clearly see that the Uchihas by nature were not a safe group of people.  They develop mental issues if they lose someone they love, which is guaranteed to happen, and they spiral down into a nutcase status.
> 
> He wasn't just being a run of the mill racist, he saw that the Uchiha clan's blood legitimately made them a threat.  Not only that, but he is willing to go to the village's desires instead of rolling with Hashirama's feel good politics.  What difference does a candidate's emotional status make when you are the ones being governed?  It would be selfish to ignore what the village says and rule with an iron fist, neglecting anyone who proposes a different idea.



If you have such a problem with "Hashirama's feel good politics" then why the hell would you want the man as Hokage? You people are all hypocrites.


----------



## Last Rose of Summer (Mar 29, 2013)

Wall of text to Seto Kaiba:


*Spoiler*: __ 





Seto Kaiba said:


> He testing Hashirama's resolve.



Obviously. It was Hashirama who insisted on alliance, not fodder Senju.



Seto Kaiba said:


> In the rhetorical sense, the fight for true peace.



The fight for true peace has cost lives of Hashi and Mads' brothers. And many others. Hashirama has stated resigned that "there is always war". Madara can;t see a way of regaining the trust of Uchiha and coming to understanding with Tobirama. He is a fifth wheel to the coach. Thus he leaves konoha. Is this all too difficult to understand? He has found another dream, that isn't in Konoha. Happens.



Seto Kaiba said:


> UGH. This is the problem with you! I've been condemning Tobirama too, at no point did I claim he was angelic in any sense.



Yet, you somehow speak to me how Madara is all evil, evil, evil.



Seto Kaiba said:


> It's in this thread.



There were many.



Seto Kaiba said:


> Nobody trusted Madara though, and this comes from the history of his volatile nature.



His volatile nature? Do you know who has a volatile nature too? Uzumakis. How is Naruto not 
trusted because of it?



Seto Kaiba said:


> I've shown that Madara has his own prejudices against the Senju. It was always Hashirama he saw as an individual. He wants to fight Hashirama on his won principles of being a warrior, but he wants to control everyone through absolute power.



You have posted the scenes that happened before adara gave it another try. In Konoha you don't hear him badmouthing Senju clan.

And no, Madara wants to fight Hashi as part of his "true dream". Whatever this may be.



Seto Kaiba said:


> You haven't inspired anyone, you just have something in common with those particular individuals.



Name them. Who's there besides the two of us?



Seto Kaiba said:


> This only proves my point about you!
> 
> I only dislike Obito and Sasuke!
> 
> ...



That's cool. See the last answer for this.



Seto Kaiba said:


> See above. You are so frustrated you can't wedge me into your
> false dichotomies that you wound up trying to anyways! That is the mark of true fanaticism.



Says a person who can't interpret shit without pairing glasses on and bends character 
interpretation to ridicule pairing he dislikes .



Seto Kaiba said:


> I don't hate Konoha, just certain individuals within it. I don't hate
> Uchiha as a whole, just two very specific individuals.



I have it the other way around: I hate Konoha, but still I can like individuals in there.



Seto Kaiba said:


> OK? You just are only proving my point about that fanaticism of
> yours.
> 
> OOHHH!!!! SEE HE LIKE A SENJU CHARACTER SO THAT MUST MEAN HE LIKES ALL
> ...



You are making an idiot of yourself.

Senju are more than men, they are the idea. In the line of your few liked Senju (ideological) characters tells me what side you are on. You very much like characters that are mentally Senju, yet you try to force me to believe you are neutral. 




Wall of text to Gaawa-chan:


*Spoiler*: __ 





Gaawa-chan said:


> Tobirama gets easily forgiven for spying on that occasion because in that instance it was a matter of life and death.
> Madara should NOT get off for spying on this occasion because he said he would trust and then immediately demonstrated that he didn't mean it, so his whole "Kill your brother or yourself to earn my trust" thing was bullshit.



For Uchiha clan it was a matter of their position in the Village and eventually their own survival.

]





Gaawa-chan said:


> So if I have a private conversation with my family about Obama, you'd have no qualms with Obama spying on that conversation?



If this were a conversation where choices and policies are set on what you are planning to do with Obama's head and the heads of his family, then I couldn't blame him for overhearing this essential information. And such was a case in this chap.



Gaawa-chan said:


> Have you forgotten that such a thing didn't actually happen?
> 
> 
> Christ, he looks grim. Just because he expected the Uchihas to rebel, that does not mean he WANTED them to rebel so they could be annihilated.




Remember his only dream was join the Uchiha police to *protect *Konoha.

Oh, yes he was delighted to hear Uchihas death was "for the greater good of the Village".



Gaawa-chan said:


> Tobirama wanted to slaughter the Uchihas? Give me a link where he says he wanted that done or take your baseless speculations and stick them in your eye. I have no patience for people who make crap up.



You are very naive when it comes to Tobirama.

He had no qualms of using people for ET. Scarred the whole world with it. He was constantly living with convinction Uchiha clan will rebell, thus finally having an excuse to behead them. But he didn't  lived this long and died during FSWW.

And I have qouted Maddy so many times it;s not funny anymore.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Mar 29, 2013)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> Obviously. It was Hashirama who insisted on alliance, not fodder Senju.



And it was Hashirama whom Madara gave a chance to, not the Senju.



> The fight for true peace has cost lives of Hashi and Mads' brothers. And many others. Hashirama has stated resigned that "there is always war". Madara can;t see a way of regaining the trust of Uchiha and coming to understanding with Tobirama. He is a fifth wheel to the coach. Thus he leaves konoha. Is this all too difficult to understand? He has found another dream, that isn't in Konoha. Happens.



He ran away from life. He wants to make an illusion of it. 



> Yet, you somehow speak to me how Madara is all evil, evil, evil.



Yes he is. You are so immersed in the dichotomy you set up for yourself that you are incapable of seeing it beyond that "either or" mentality.



> There were many.



Many of which you flip out like a fanatic and accuse people? Yes.



> His volatile nature? Do you know who has a volatile nature too? Uzumakis. How is Naruto not
> trusted because of it?



That's a pretty pathetic defense, and I doubt Naruto would be a good leader himself because of his nature. Madara's volatile nature leads him to do violent, destructive acts in contrast to someone like Naruto however which leads him to do stupid acts.



> You have posted the scenes that happened before adara gave it another try. In Konoha you don't hear him badmouthing Senju clan.



Yet he doesn't believe peace can be truly achieved with Senju and Uchiha in the village. He still holds resentment over the Senju for his siblings' death, something about him which had never changed. It was only Hashirama as an individual that was able to get through to him.



> And no, Madara wants to fight Hashi as part of his "true dream". Whatever this may be.



Because he acknowledges him basically. Power is everything to him, and that's what Hashirama has.



> Name them. Who's there besides the two of us?



Random fanatics. Anyone that makes a hitler reference for example...



> That's cool. See the last answer for this.
> 
> Says a person who can't interpret shit without pairing glasses on and bends character interpretation to ridicule pairing he dislikes .



I don't ship any pairings, so I how could I have "pairing glasses"? You are just so immersed into this "Uchiha" vs. "Senju" mentality you've let it turn you erratic and overemotional. It's evident the root of your gripes is my dislike of Sasuke and little more than that. Since I don't unilaterally like every Uchiha character than I must be an Uchiha hater through your flawed logic.



> I have it the other way around: I hate Konoha, but still I can like individuals in there.



I hate individual characters regardless of allegiance, and I like individual characters regardless of allegiance. Each character has a different role to fill in this story, and if they do, I learn to appreciate that.



> You are making an idiot of yourself.



No, it's you who insists on clinging to your limited mindset and false dichotomies after having them disproven.



> Senju are more than men, they are the idea. In the line of your few liked Senju (ideological) characters tells me what side you are on. You very much like characters that are mentally Senju, yet you try to force me to believe you are neutral


.

That's the stupidest line of reasoning I've heard yet. It's more than evident that mentally you are in a corner on this, you want to try and wedge everyone into your stupid dichotomies but you simply can't. So you shift and move things about in a pathetic attempt to do so. That is again the true mark of fanatacism. 

Like I stated, since I don't unilaterally like all Uchiha that to you means I must hate them all. Since I like ONE Senju (and one of his students), that must mean I'm a "Senju fan". That's just plain stupid. How about I'm just fan of each of those individual characters?

But that's too reasonable an assumption for you.


----------



## ch1p (Mar 29, 2013)

AoshiKun said:


> Generalize is always wrong no matter how you look to each.
> Shisui and mainly Itachi proved to be great Konoha shinobis also most of Uchihas didn't support Madara before Tobira started to segregate them.



There was a whole clan and only three people are candidates for being scumbags. Three out of the whole (and two of them is iffy too), is a huge generalisation.


----------



## auem (Mar 29, 2013)

ch1p said:


> There was a whole clan and only three people are candidates for being scumbags. Three out of the whole (and two of them is iffy too), is a huge generalisation.


Itachi noted and Shisui wrote in his suicide note that the clan is hopeless and self-centered....not a single one of them was seen during attack of Kyubi(a mystery still)...things went downhill after that....
all happened  30+ years after Tobirama's death....Uchiha were policing Konoha,taking part in the wars during those years...not hopelessly sitting at a corner....they were not in the policy making body,but not powerless.....


----------



## takL (Mar 29, 2013)

a chicken who arms himself with all the knowledge and rumours, never mind the contradictions, he can gather.


----------



## auem (Mar 29, 2013)

@takL,
is this a japanese proverb...?


----------



## takL (Mar 29, 2013)

auem said:


> @takL,
> is this a japanese proverb...?



id ask u the same.  is it a jp thing?


----------



## auem (Mar 29, 2013)

takL said:


> id ask u the same.  is it a jp thing?



no,you misunderstood me..i am not teasing you....

but in general language you don't say chicken gathering knowledge and rumor..chicken doesn't have brain to do so(other than general intuition and behavior every animal is naturally bestowed)...so this sorts of comments come through proverb...


----------



## Raiden (Mar 29, 2013)

None.

Stop thinking of people in political extremities. 

The Uchiha weren't wiped out on his watch. He tried to set up a sketch process of checks and balances. That's why the system failed.


----------



## takL (Mar 29, 2013)

auem said:


> no,you misunderstood me..i am not teasing you....
> 
> but in general language you don't say chicken gathering knowledge and rumor..chicken doesn't have brain to do so(other than general intuition and behavior every animal is naturally bestowed)...so this sorts of comments come through proverb...



a chicken also means a coward n weakling.


----------



## auem (Mar 29, 2013)

takL said:


> a chicken also means a coward n weakling.



i understood afterward that is what you meant....but you really coined that sentence sounding like a proverb...
not that i agree with what you think of Tobirama.... i think you,for once,really hate his character...but i would only point out one thing....
if paranoia is what led to Tobirama to discriminate Uchihas,Madara was no better...his paranoia on Tobirama eventually sealed that fate.....
It was clear that nobody was willing to trust him....but he did no work to gain that...Hashi asked him to be his right hand man;had he stood beside Hashi he could led many shinobis as Hokage's official adviser....he could have fought for the people of the village....other clans would eventually see his valor and put faith in him...his own clan would have started to be proud of him....Hashirama lived quite long..he would have plenty of time to nullify Tobirama's influence...
instead he took shortest route and chuck all responsibility....warned his clansmen of Tobirama,yet he was not there to stood by them if the time ever to come( it came)....a leader who quit so easily is not a leadership material at all(though it's not proverb)......


----------



## takL (Mar 29, 2013)

auem said:


> i understood afterward that is what you meant....but you really coined that sentence sounding like a proverb...
> not that i agree with what you think of Tobirama.... i think you,for once,really hate his character...i would only point out one thing....
> if paranoia is what led to Tobirama to discriminate Uchihas,Madara was no better...his paranoia on Tobirama eventually sealed that fate.....
> It was clear that nobody was willing to trust him....but he did no work to gain that...Hashi asked him to be his right hand man;had he stood beside Hashi he could led many shinobis as Hokage's official adviser....he could have fought for the people of the village....other clans would eventually see his valor and put faith in him...his own clan would have started to be proud of him....Hashirama lived quite long..he would have plenty of time to nullify Tobirama's influence...
> instead he took shortest route and chuck all responsibility....warned his clansmen of Tobirama,yet he was not there to stood by them if the time ever to come( it came)....a leader who quit so easily is not a leadership material at all(though it's not proverb)......



here is a proverb. Praise a fool, and you may make him useful.
/Fire n water are good servants but bad masters.


----------



## Kael Hyun (Mar 29, 2013)

takL said:


> a chicken who arms himself with all the knowledge and rumours, never mind the contradictions, he can gather.



The only chicken here is Madara as he left just as things were starting and He didn't even try to prove Tobirama wrong.


----------



## takL (Mar 29, 2013)

Kael Hyun said:


> The only chicken here is Madara as he left just as things were starting and He didn't even try to prove Tobirama wrong.



as if tobirama wasnt scared of madara.


----------



## Kael Hyun (Mar 29, 2013)

takL said:


> as if tobirama wasnt scared of madara.



He had no reason to be afraid of Madara.


----------



## auem (Mar 29, 2013)

takL said:


> here is a proverb. Praise a fool, and you may make him useful.
> /Fire n water are good servants but bad masters.


But you know,it takes two to quarrel....


----------



## takL (Mar 29, 2013)

@ auem yep like yin and yang.



Kael Hyun said:


> He had no reason to be afraid of Madara.



then why is he so afraid of him as if a trauma?

oro: ..seems as if madara is your trauma. as u are afraid of the uchiha so much...
lord ignoble: u  squirt... u dont know madara.


----------



## Grendel (Mar 29, 2013)

Racism is a word that is over used because it doesnt apply in this situation as these were two former waring clans not memebers of two different races...

I dont blame him for madaras actions at all because madara is the one responsible for how he acts and nobody else...

Instead of trying to prove Tobirama wrong about how he viewed Madara...Madara goes out of his way to prove him right which then (in Tobirama's mind) confirms all his concerns about the clan as well...though not saying Tobirama was correct as both are supposed to represent characters that kept the cycle of hatred going...

Tobirama actually does prove madara wrong regarding some of his fears as he never once tries to exterminate then clan.  He may keep a closer eye on them but he does give them a position of power that he believes will inspire loyalty to the village (at least this is what he actually believed in his more narrow viewpoint)...whether you feel they were unjustifiably "segregated" or not the fact does remain that none of the other clans were given that type of authority over the village and all clans seem to have lived in their own districts...

"tl;dr" he cant be viewed in black and white as so many try to do as he was a morally grey character and through all his faults and mistakes i actually believe he felt he was doing what was right to protect his village...not the same character as Danzou was that used the "for the better of the village" slogan to pursue his own goals..


----------



## ShadowReij (Mar 29, 2013)

Kael Hyun said:


> He had no reason to be afraid of Madara.



The only man that could keep Madara in check is his brother as he certainly isn't strong enough, he's fought Izuna, one who rivaled in ability to Madara, and believes that that the Uchiha are a clan of walking SS psycho timebombs. And given how he has witnessed their clashes beforehand I'm pretty sure Tobirama feared him and the Uchiha. Hence his constant "Watch out with the Uchiha they crazy."


----------



## Gaawa-chan (Mar 29, 2013)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> presence
> 
> Oh, yes he was delighted to hear Uchihas death was "for the greater good of the Village".



Yes... he looks so very... delighted... 




> He had no qualms of using people for ET. Scarred the whole world with it. He was constantly living with convinction Uchiha clan will rebell, thus finally having an excuse to behead them. But he didn't  lived this long and died during FSWW.
> 
> And I have qouted Maddy so many times it;s not funny anymore. [/spoiler]



As others have already stated, Tobirama cannot be held responsible for the way other people have used Edo Tensei.  The only thing you could potentially fault him for was recording the technique in a forbidden scroll.  Even then, he did more to hide that information than say, the scientists who discovered how to do this:
It's Tobirama's fault and Madara is the victim here?
And I don't hear you calling for the heads of those scientists, whose discoveries, btw, killed ACTUAL people.

Madara's doomsday predictions about the Uchiha under Tobirama were false.  End of story.  You're quick to point out that Tobirama did not like the Uchihas, but Madara's insistence that Tobirama becoming a Hokage (which he insists will happen, and of course does once Madara decides to leave.  I can't believe people accuse Tobirama of being a self-fulfilling prophet when Madara is just as bad about that if not worse) will 'doom the Uchihas' was outright incorrect.  He didn't kill them, and the only thing you have supporting the idea that he was going to is Madara's assumptions?  

He gives absolutely no indication that he wants the clan dead; Madara didn't say that either!  Tobirama stated that he wanted to turn the Uchiha clan into something positive for the whole village _in that very page you linked me to where you claim that he's 'delighted' about the Uchiha slaughter._  You have no basis for your claim that Tobirama intended to kill the Uchihas.


----------



## Last Rose of Summer (Mar 30, 2013)

To Seto Kaiba:


*Spoiler*: __ 





Seto Kaiba said:


> And it was Hashirama whom Madara gave a chance to, not the Senju.



Contrary to Madara's own words? 



Seto Kaiba said:


> He ran away from life. He wants to make an illusion of it.



You have already said it once. And you've heard in response that Hashi's Village system hasn't brought peace either. Instead of having clan wars, Narutoverse started facing Village wars, with everything Hashirama wanted to avoid (children dying in battles). Had Madara stayed in Konoha he would have still participated in upcoming FSWW, still seeing the Village idea as fail measure to ascertain peace. I'm interested to know what do you think of Kisame biting into Madara's/Tobi's Moon Eye's Plan and dying for its sake? Was he stupid (in your eyes) for doing so?

Hashirama himself lost hope in peaceful way of life and you are beating the crap out of Madara for doing the same.



Seto Kaiba said:


> Yes he is. You are so immersed in the dichotomy you set up for
> yourself that you are incapable of seeing it beyond that "either or" mentality.



Had there been third side in this war, it could have been a little easier to support the "LOL fuck both of them" mentality. Unforunately for you Kishi didn't give us the third, neutral party.



Seto Kaiba said:


> Many of which you flip out like a fanatic and accuse people? Yes.



I still wait for the quotation of me labelling "Uchiha hater" everyone who doesn't condemn 
Tobirama.



Seto Kaiba said:


> That's a pretty pathetic defense, and I doubt Naruto would be a
> good leader himself because of his nature. Madara's volatile nature leads him to do violent,
> destructive acts in contrast to someone like Naruto however which leads him to do stupid acts.



Madara was calm mofo when killed whole division. He was calm enough when he decided to go for the other interpretation of the tablet. To equal Maddy doing evil acts because of his violent personality is stupid, when we have seen that his MEP was a result of thinking about his options after reading the tablet.



Seto Kaiba said:


> Yet he doesn't believe peace can be truly achieved with Senju and Uchiha in the village. He still holds resentment over the Senju for his siblings' death, something about him which had never changed. It was only Hashirama as an individual that was able to get through to him.



He believed it until he heard Tobirama's words.



Seto Kaiba said:


> Because he acknowledges him basically. Power is everything to him, and that's what Hashirama has.



And? You speak as if power was something not important to the most powerful clan in 
Narutoverse, i.e. Senju.



Seto Kaiba said:


> Random fanatics. Anyone that makes a hitler reference for
> example...



They are so random, you keep looking out for them in your crusade?



Seto Kaiba said:


> I don't ship any pairings, so I how could I have "pairing glasses"?
> 
> You are just so immersed into this "Uchiha" vs. "Senju" mentality you've let it turn you erratic and overemotional. It's evident the root of your gripes is my dislike of Sasuke and little more than that.
> 
> Since I don't unilaterally like every Uchiha character than I must be an Uchiha hater through your flawed logic.



LOL Says owner of one anti-pairing FC and member of other anti-pairing FCs.

I can live happily with haters of my liked characters like with Addy who hates Rin and Obito 
(characters I like), because his critique of those charas is based on something and he lives happily with although I hate his favourite one. So fail and shame on you.



Seto Kaiba said:


> I hate individual characters regardless of allegiance, and I like
> individual characters regardless of allegiance. Each character has a different role to fill in this
> story, and if they do, I learn to appreciate that.



And you just happen to kick those who are against your liked characters who (these characters) happen to be pro-Konoha?



Seto Kaiba said:


> No, it's you who insists on clinging to your limited mindset and false dichotomies after having them disproven.



Senju vs Uchiha isn't false dichotomy. It's in-verse given. Other thing is that you try to pose as 
neutral in this discussion.



Seto Kaiba said:


> That's the stupidest line of reasoning I've heard yet. It's more than evident that mentally you are in a corner on this, you want to try and wedge everyone into your stupid dichotomies but you simply can't. So you shift and move things about in a pathetic attempt to do so. That is again the true mark of fanatacism.
> 
> Like I stated, since I don't unilaterally like all Uchiha that to you means I must hate them all. Since I like ONE Senju (and one of his students), that must mean I'm a "Senju fan". That's just plain stupid.
> 
> ...



And this all started with me saying that Tobirama wasn't senile for inventing ET. No words of mine how Madara/Uchiha is/are this or that. You jumped on me for stating something on Tobirama. If you are this neutral and all like you try make me to believe you surely would jump on me for saying "Madara wasn't senile, coz ..." and this lovely video would be put in your post too.

You know what?

I doubt you would have done it, had I critized Madara.

This one sentence of mine hurt this much you had to start your deranged accusiation of me being fanatic. 

And the notion of Senju being an ideal isn't stupid, it hasd manga foundation.




To Gaawa-chan:


*Spoiler*: __ 





Gaawa-chan said:


> As others have already stated, Tobirama cannot be held responsible for the way other people have used Edo Tensei. The only thing you could potentially fault him for was recording the technique in a forbidden scroll. Even then, he did more to hide that information than say, the scientists who discovered how to do this:
> It's Tobirama's fault and Madara is the victim here?
> And I don't hear you calling for the heads of those scientists, whose discoveries, btw, killed
> ACTUAL people.
> ...



Where did I say anything of how other people used ET? Tobirama comming up with idea on a jutsu that disturbs the souls of departed, needs killing someone to summon the soul and then uses the summoned human to fight and "wipe the battlefield clean" are on Tobirama alone, not on someone else.

There is no evidence who put label "forbidden" on ET jutsu.

Using nuclear bomb for example. Cool. Tobirama not only invented ET, but used it, so he became quite infamous for it in his times. There's no need to utter words "but, but Orochimaru and Kabuto!" 

How can I call for heads of sciencists who are long dead? And if there are sciencists who kill 
people for their experiments and use them in experiments without consent, they should face court justice. Period. In the Narutoverse this wouldn't exclude Tobirama.

As I said to someone earlier: Madara had Hashi's support, but mistrust of his own clan, the 
mistrust of Tobirama and the Senju clan stance on him is an unknown. Tobirama had support of Senju clan, his brother did listen to him enough to agree with him on election's idea, there is no evidence Uchiha hated Tobirama. Out of those two Madara was in worse position, when it comes to defense and implementation of his ideas like telling the Uchiha to leave Hidden Leaf.

You say there is no indication that Tobirama wanted Uchiha gone. There are:

1) 309
Hashi telling Tobirama not to kill Madara and not to fight Uchiha anymore.

2) 309
Tobirama discussing with his brother what should be done with Uchihas (not only with Madara), because of the way they fuel their power-ups.

3) Tobirama being cut in by Hashi for what he suggest to be done for "the greater good of the  Village".

4) When Tobirama heard that Uchihas are dead, he stated their power and destroing each other benefited the Village 309 while totally ommitting the fact that it was his own students and mental successors' orders, that caused an Uchiha to kill other Uchihas.

5) Sole notion of "crush Konoha" makes Tobirama say that Sasuke is malevolent like the rest of his clan (no differences are made here, Tobirama clearly says ALL Uchihas are the same) 
309
whereas Sasuke in fact stopped for now with his revenge in pursuit of more knowledge, so he can make up his own mind. What would Tobirama do to Naruto, had he heard him say, he could have ended just like Sasuke?


----------



## Bontakun (Mar 30, 2013)

The choices are extreme. Well given these two choices I chose "good guy" because he seems to have good intentions even if he went about it the totally wrong way.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Mar 30, 2013)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> Contrary to Madara's own words?



His words and actions have always made it clear that it is Hashirama he sees as an individual when it comes to the Senju.



> You have already said it once. And you've heard in response that Hashi's Village system hasn't brought peace either. Instead of having clan wars, Narutoverse started facing Village wars, with everything Hashirama wanted to avoid (children dying in battles).



The system Hashirama set up isn't even all that old, you still have those from its first generation still living. Pragmatically speaking, any expectation of true stability in less than a century's time is unrealistic. The thing about it is, Madara just stopped caring. This is about power and control for Madara, not harmony that Hashirama wants.



> Had Madara stayed in Konoha he would have still participated in upcoming FSWW, still seeing the Village idea as fail measure to ascertain peace. I'm interested to know what do you think of Kisame biting into Madara's/Tobi's Moon Eye's Plan and dying for its sake? Was he stupid (in your eyes) for doing so?



He was told of a "world with no lies", but that's all Madara's plan would be. A world that is just one big lie, so yeah he was in that respects. 



> Hashirama himself lost hope in peaceful way of life and you are beating the crap out of Madara for doing the same.



Well remind me when Hashirama decided it's OK to kill everyone in the present world and wanted to subjugate everyone else into an illusion of one where he holds absolute power. Stupid argument.

He regrets peace hasn't been achieved, but nothing indicates he has lost hope that it can be achieved in the future. 



> Had there been third side in this war, it could have been a little easier to support the "LOL fuck both of them" mentality. Unforunately for you Kishi didn't give us the third, neutral party.



You're just being moronically dichotomic about the whole thing. There are four parties:

Hashirama whom wishes true cooperation among the clans

Tobirama whom cannot let go of his prejudices towards the Uchiha

Madara whom cannot let go of his prejudices towards the Senju

and finally the Uchiha clan themselves that up to this point where hapless victims of circumstance. 



> I still wait for the quotation of me labelling "Uchiha hater" everyone who doesn't condemn Tobirama



You just did it to me three times as I knew you would. Even after having an objective facts laid out that contradict your claims you still insist on it. You've done it a few times, and like I stated you have an erratic and irrational tendency to do it on an issue that deals with an Uchiha or the clan as a whole.



> Madara was calm mofo when killed whole division. He was calm enough when he decided to go for the other interpretation of the tablet. To equal Maddy doing evil acts because of his violent personality is stupid, when we have seen that his MEP was a result of thinking about his options after reading the tablet.



That doesn't change that he has a violent personality. As a matter of fact that only cements it. Sasuke is the same way, he can put on a stone face but he is still a very volatile individual. Madara sees things in the context of power, in a more extreme fashion than even Sasuke does.



> He believed it until he heard Tobirama's words.



His resentment was always there. When his brother died he lost his true reason for wanting the village, and when he lost his reputation among his clan the other. Like I stated before I believe, he had the contrast in Hashirama which he chose to ignore. 



> And? You speak as if power was something not important to the most powerful clan in
> Narutoverse, i.e. Senju.



Multiple characters including Madara himself have emphasized exactly how much power means to himself compared to other individuals or groups. He's comparatively extremist in that regard compared to most of the cast.



> They are so random, you keep looking out for them in your crusade?



I don't, they simply happen because people like making loaded comparisons apparently.



> LOL Says owner of one anti-pairing FC and member of other anti-pairing FCs.



Well I just said I don't ship anything. Oh right, this may be more of your flawed dichotomies. Since I dislike something it must mean because I like something else, right? Isn't that how your type thinks?



> I can live happily with haters of my liked characters like with Addy who hates Rin and Obito
> (characters I like), because his critique of those charas is based on something and he lives happily with although I hate his favourite one. So fail and shame on you.



You can't with this because you've wedged yourself in the stupid Uchiha/Senju and taken it to a level beyond the story. That would only make Addy the exception, because just about anyone else you argue with you can't seem to control your fanatical behavior. 



> And you just happen to kick those who are against your liked characters who (these characters) happen to be pro-Konoha?



Like this for example. "pro-Konoha" or not, is irrelevant. Honestly the term is incredibly stupid. 

*Danzo* was pro-Konoha as was Tobirama but they aren't among my favorites. Although I think the former was wasted potential as a villain...Sakura is "pro-Konoha" and I don't like her at all. Naruto is "pro-Konoha" and I don't like him either.



> Senju vs Uchiha isn't false dichotomy. It's in-verse given. Other thing is that you try to pose as neutral in this discussion.



In-universe, but not fandom like you and so many others have taken it. A degree to which has just become utterly fanatic.



> And this all started with me saying that Tobirama wasn't senile for inventing ET.



Senile...don't use a word if you don't know what it means...



> No words of mine how Madara/Uchiha is/are this or that. You jumped on me for stating something on Tobirama.



Persecution complex. What a surprise.



> If you are this neutral and all like you try make me to believe you surely would jump on me for saying "Madara wasn't senile, coz ..." and this lovely video would be put in your post too.



If you used "senile" in the incorrect context I would. 



> You know what?
> 
> I doubt you would have done it, had I critized Madara.



Your paranoia is hilarious.



> This one sentence of mine hurt this much you had to start your deranged accusiation of me being fanatic.



You have only proven me right at every turn. You are *obsessed* with that flawed dichotomy of yours.



> And the notion of Senju being an ideal isn't stupid, it hasd manga foundation.



In regards to fandom and character preferences, like you have applied it, it is utterly moronic. The mark of fanaticism once again.

My character preferences are hardly about being "pro-Konoha" or "thinking like a Senju" as you idiotically put it. Since you know, we see two Senju right now that think very differently, and that being "pro-Konoha" hardly means a set list of characteristics and traits among the characters. 

So your terminology and attempts to label me a "Senju fan" in contrast to yourself that has actually identified as an Uchiha fan is contrived at best and can be best explained that you are either simply incapable of seeing things beyond that scope or that you are to such an extreme that you don't want to.


----------



## Last Rose of Summer (Mar 30, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> His words and actions have always made it clear that it is
> Hashirama he sees as an individual when it comes to the Senju.



What? Is Tobirama some sort of weird mass to Madara then? You don't see Madara interacting with fodder Senju at all, so your assuption is baseless.



Seto Kaiba said:


> The system Hashirama set up isn't even all that old, you still have those from its first generation still living. Pragmatically speaking, any expectation of true stability in less than a century's time is unrealistic. The thing about it is, Madara just stopped caring. This is about power and control for Madara, not harmony that Hashirama wants.



Why does it matter? The age of system that is? Do you expect humans to stop acting like humans and not to start wars? Let's take a look at what according to many in ninja world needs to appear in order to stop the conflicts: ninja Jesus. Yup, Jiraiya, Minato, Raikage all believed they need a savior to put an end to wars. Hate it or not, this is the direction in which Kishimoto has led his story. Hashirama and Madara were chanceless in this setting.



Seto Kaiba said:


> He was told of a "world with no lies", but that's all Madara's plan would be. A world that is just one big lie, so yeah he was in that respects.



Fair enough to see Kisame as stupid.



Seto Kaiba said:


> Well remind me when Hashirama decided it's OK to kill everyone in the present world and wanted to subjugate everyone else into an illusion of one where he holds absolute power. Stupid argument.
> 
> He regrets peace hasn't been achieved, but nothing indicates he has lost hope that it can be
> achieved in the future.



This is something Tobirama called out Hashi on: that Hashi wants to rule like their father did and force people to accept Madara in Hokage's position. Hashi was no that far from being an 
absolutist himself, not to mention he collected enormous power in form of bijuu.

Hashi keeps saying that there is always war, no matter the times.



Seto Kaiba said:


> You're just being moronically dichotomic about the whole thing.
> 
> There are four parties:
> 
> ...



Your parties 1 and 2 are all for dealing together with party 3. Party 4 is dead, but as they were 
rebells they still stand against Konoha.



Seto Kaiba said:


> You just did it to me three times as I knew you would. Even after
> having an objective facts laid out that contradict your claims you still insist on it. You've done it a few times, and like I stated you have an erratic and irrational tendency to do it on an issue that deals with an Uchiha or the clan as a whole.



All you did was to label me as fanatic who screams "Hitler this! Hitler that!" That's not 
argumentation that's antagonization, demonization and stigmatization.



Seto Kaiba said:


> That doesn't change that he has a violent personality. As a matter of fact that only cements it. Sasuke is the same way, he can put on a stone face but he is still a very volatile individual. Madara sees things in the context of power, in a more extreme fashion than even Sasuke does.



His personality is not a maker of his choices. Be it his childhood dream of "true brotherhood" or his decision to leave Konoha.

As for Sasuke he decided to go against Itachi's wish after having some time to think. His outburst at Kage Summit may have sent NF people WTF, but still his decision was made prior to this and prior to attacking Kumo.



Seto Kaiba said:


> His resentment was always there. When his brother died he lost his true reason for wanting the village, and when he lost his reputation among his clan the other. Like I stated before I believe, he had the contrast in Hashirama which he chose to ignore.



Then why did he create Konoha with Hashirama? For lulz?



Seto Kaiba said:


> Multiple characters including Madara himself have emphasized
> exactly how much power means to himself compared to other individuals or groups. He's
> comparatively extremist in that regard compared to most of the cast.



You mean like Tobirama saying "it's popular belief that for Uchiha power is everyting, but the truth is that they value friendship and love above everything else"?

Claiming that Madara is power-hungry, thus in wrong, while failing to see that becoming more powerful is on mind of all "good-guys" is - like you love to name it - "a false dichotomy".



Seto Kaiba said:


> I don't, they simply happen because people like making loaded
> comparisons apparently.



Not to be bitch here, but where's the qoutation?



Seto Kaiba said:


> Well I just said I don't ship anything. Oh right, this may be more of your flawed dichotomies. Since I dislike something it must mean because I like something else, right? Isn't that how your type thinks?



No, it means you are at people's throats for liking what you hate in pairing X with passion. This makes you irrational and very non-neutral.



Seto Kaiba said:


> You can't with this because you've wedged yourself in the stupid Uchiha/Senju and taken it to a level beyond the story. That would only make Addy the exception, because just about anyone else you argue with you can't seem to control your fanatical behavior.



For realz? Same goes for every Uchiha-hater in Anti-Itachi FC. I can live with them. 
Somehow you try to make out of me a fanatic for calling Tobirama out on him creating ET.



Seto Kaiba said:


> Like this for example. "pro-Konoha" or not, is irrelevant. Honestly the term is incredibly stupid.
> 
> Danzo was pro-Konoha as was Tobirama but they aren't among my favorites. Although I think the former was wasted potential as a villain...Sakura is "pro-Konoha" and I don't like her at all. Naruto is "pro-Konoha" and I don't like him either.



How can it be stupid, when three of your favs died for said Konoha? Or were they just being neutral like you?

Danzo was pro-himself, not pro-Konoha.

To make it all really simple let me ask you: which side would you like to win in current war?



Seto Kaiba said:


> In-universe, but not fandom like you and so many others have taken it. A degree to which has just become utterly fanatic.



Again: why does it disturb you that people take sides with their favourite characters?
If you weren't this blind, you would see that I critize my favs too and call them by their villain names. 

Are Sasuke, Obito and Madara villains? Yes, they are. Are they goody-goody people? No, they 
aren't.

But God forbid I dare say a word against one Senju (who do you supposedly don't like) and I have to deal with Yorkshire Terrier, that must bark loud enough to not get stepped on.



Seto Kaiba said:


> Senile...don't use a word if you don't know what it means...



Then correcting me without a spite would make more sense.



Seto Kaiba said:


> If you used "senile" in the incorrect context I would.



I very, very doubt it. 



Seto Kaiba said:


> Your paranoia is hilarious.



Are you psychiatrist?



Seto Kaiba said:


> You have only proven me right at every turn. You are obsessed with that flawed dichotomy of yours.



That is what I get for calling Tobirama a monster he was. Sigh.



Seto Kaiba said:


> In regards to fandom and character preferences, like you have
> applied it, it is utterly moronic. The mark of fanaticism once again.
> 
> My character preferences are hardly about being "pro-Konoha" or "thinking like a Senju" as you idiotically put it. Since you know, we see two Senju right now that think very differently, and that being "pro-Konoha" hardly means a set list of characteristics and traits among the characters.
> ...



We see two Senju having different approach when it comes to Uchiha clan, not to the Village as such. Both of them pushed for WoF later on. Both worked for Konoha to ensure its flourishing and survival. Both have appreciated the thinking: "protect those who believe in you" 

You cannot write off that charas you like are people influenced by this ideology and that they didn't help create it. It's like saying you admire Stalin's decisions based on communist ideology, but in no way you acknowledge that communism played a role in his life. 

Pro-Konoha is WoF ideology. Simple. Both Senju bros showed it: 

Madara having the beast full fleshed at arms lenght is really

There wouldn't be this discussion if I hated Uchiha, like you don't insult people who hate the same pairings like you do. Also simple.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Mar 30, 2013)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> What? Is Tobirama some sort of weird mass to Madara then? You don't see Madara interacting with fodder Senju at all, so your assuption is baseless.



He doesn't like the Senju. Just as Tobirama dislikes the Uchiha. Tobirama is particularly wary of Madara, and Madara is particularly resentful of Tobirama.



> Why does it matter? The age of system that is? Do you expect humans to stop acting like humans and not to start wars? Let's take a look at what according to many in ninja world needs to appear in order to stop the conflicts: ninja Jesus. Yup, Jiraiya, Minato, Raikage all believed they need a savior to put an end to wars. Hate it or not, this is the direction in which Kishimoto has led his story. Hashirama and Madara were chanceless in this setting.



In regards to their expectations, a system would actually need time to stabilize. A complete halt to any conflict is not realistic, but extended periods of peace are. The first century of the system is plagued by conflict and war, but that's how it usually starts out.



> Fair enough to see Kisame as stupid.



Eh, he isn't perfect.



> This is something Tobirama called out Hashi on: that Hashi wants to rule like their father did and force people to accept Madara in Hokage's position. Hashi was no that far from being an absolutist himself, not to mention he collected enormous power in form of bijuu.



Your interpretations are incredibly warped and very contrary to what the story has laid out. He wanted to choose Madara as Hokage to show the solidarity between Senju and Uchiha, Tobirama objected on the basis of his bigotry against the Uchiha and his own personal fears of Madara. Hashi was hardly an absolutist, especially considering he gave biju to villages as a sign of good-will.



> Hashi keeps saying that there is always war, no matter the times.



He was saying that in terms of resentment. As in, even after all the time that has passed since he died, wars still happen.



> Your parties 1 and 2 are all for dealing together with party 3. Party 4 is dead, but as they were rebells they still stand against Konoha.



Actually it was stated prior to Fugaku's coup the Uchiha were quite loyal to the village. 



> All you did was to label me as fanatic who screams "Hitler this! Hitler that!" That's not argumentation that's antagonization, demonization and stigmatization.



You asked for an example of what types I'm talking about.



> His personality is not a maker of his choices. Be it his childhood dream of "true brotherhood" or his decision to leave Konoha.



Yes it is. His personality, like any other's, influences his decision making. It is his brothers' deaths and his resentment over it that contributed in molding who he was in his young adult life. 



> As for Sasuke he decided to go against Itachi's wish after having some time to think. His outburst at Kage Summit may have sent NF people WTF, but still his decision was made prior to this and prior to attacking Kumo.



There's nothing that states violent or volatile people are incapable of thinking. It makes the former worse. Madara and Sasuke both are quite volatile, because they have shown quite easily to be overcome by their own feelings. They are violent for reasons I think are more than self-explanatory.



> Then why did he create Konoha with Hashirama? For lulz?



Because Hashirama showed his resolve, so he like I stated believed in Hashirama himself. It wasn't just the words of Tobirama, this was a buildup of years of resentment towards the Senju, something which was made abundant even before these flashbacks.



> You mean like Tobirama saying "it's popular belief that for Uchiha power is everyting, but the truth is that they value friendship and love above everything else"?
> 
> Claiming that Madara is power-hungry, thus in wrong, while failing to see that becoming more powerful is on mind of all "good-guys" is - like you love to name it - "a false dichotomy".



Madara specifically, your argument is ridiculous. Madara wants absolute control over everyone, he is extremely power-hungry. 



> Not to be bitch here, but where's the qoutation?





> In real life Tobirama would be someone like Hitler while Hashirama like Gandhi. If you think that Hitler was better than Gandhi...





> Tobirama went Hitler with his prejudice





> Harashima's words meant nothing and sooner or later, a Hokage was going to be picked that would later Hitler his clan. If Madara stayed, it wouldn't of done anything positive anyway. The dude got fucked by things he had no power in(Senju had the strongest political power post war).





> No, it means you are at people's throats for liking what you hate in pairing X with passion. This makes you irrational and very non-neutral.



I only have a passive dislike for NaruHina, despite owning the anti-fc. SasuSaku is something I find morally repugnant, it reflects everything I and most people would find objectionable in a relationship of any kind. Hardly irrational, you're just desperately grasping at straws here. Yet this is what I mean by your fanatical behavior. It's completely irrelevant.



> For realz? Same goes for every Uchiha-hater in Anti-Itachi FC. I can live with them.



Until they start bearing down on you. Then you flip out like now. 



> Somehow you try to make out of me a fanatic for calling Tobirama out on him creating ET.



What? You used senile in the incorrect context, that was my first response; it was the other argument that led to you flipping out. That being you going on about this Uchiha/Senju divide on a fandom level.



> How can it be stupid, when three of your favs died for said Konoha? Or were they just being neutral like you?



This is pretty insane of you. It's stupid because it is their characteristics that matter not their allegiance. Killer Bee is loyal to Kumo, but I like his character nonetheless. Like I stated each character has a role to play in this story, and if I feel they fill it well, I learn to appreciate them. 



> Danzo was pro-himself, not pro-Konoha.



He was pro-himself because he thought he could lead the village to the best future. He was pro-Konoha, as everything he did he actually believed would make the village better. Yet he was an extremist, and a pretty corrupt individual. 



> To make it all really simple let me ask you: which side would you like to win in current war?



Actually, I don't care. I don't see what difference it makes either.



> Again: why does it disturb you that people take sides with their favourite characters?



You don't take sides with characters. You've grouped them into an "us vs. them" dichotomy.  

Again, you have taken this Senju/Uchiha on a level it was never meant to be taken. It's stupid.



> If you weren't this blind, you would see that I critize my favs too and call them by their villain names.



I call Minato "Yondaime" sometimes so what? You still flip out at people that dislike those characters. You still choose to identify based on stupid lines of "Senju" and "Uchiha". I don't, yet you keep trying to wedge it in.



> Are Sasuke, Obito and Madara villains? Yes, they are. Are they goody-goody people? No, they aren't.



You've constantly labeled yourself as hating Konoha or being an Uchiha fan pretty much unilaterally. If you don't want others to do that then why not just make it about liking the characters individually rather than this stupid thing of "pro-Konoha" or "thinking like a Senju" stupidity?

I mean, Itachi and Shisui "thought like Senjus",  and were "Pro-Konoha" yet they are Uchiha. Obito and Madara are so wildly different from them. Yet you've been caught up in ridiculous groupthink. 



> But God forbid I dare say a word against one Senju (who do you supposedly don't like) and I have to deal with Yorkshire Terrier, that must bark loud enough to not get stepped on.



I don't mind any criticism towards Tobirama, I don't really care...I've made a fair amount myself. Like I stated, this is that fanatical dichotomy you've set up at play here that is the issue.



> Then correcting me without a spite would make more sense



It was a YT video in jest, don't be such a victim. 



> I very, very doubt it.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you psychiatrist?



Don't be such a victim. 



> That is what I get for calling Tobirama a monster he was. Sigh.



That wasn't it at all. This is your inability to see things beyond that dichotomy you've set up.



> We see two Senju having different approach when it comes to Uchiha clan, not to the Village as such. Both of them pushed for WoF later on. Both worked for Konoha to ensure its flourishing and survival. Both have appreciated the thinking: "protect those who believe in you"



How are those traits contemptible? You are definitely proving my point about being irrational. They believed in similar values, but they *interpreted* it very differently.

Hashirama's was more inclusive and less judgmental. 

Tobirama's was less inclusive and more judgmental. 

Danzo interpreted as a "by any means necessary" type of thinking

Hiruzen interpreted it the same as Hashirama. 



> You cannot write off that charas you like are people influenced by this ideology and that they didn't help create it. It's like saying you admire Stalin's decisions based on communist ideology, but in no way you acknowledge that communism played a role in his life.



Stalin was actually an authoritarian dictator, he started out in the Communist ideal but one from Lenin's influence not the original Marxist influence.

Since I clearly know more than history than you I'll give a better example in the following response.



> Pro-Konoha is WoF ideology. Simple. Both Senju bros showed it:
> 
> Madara having the beast full fleshed at arms lenght is really



What is wrong with you? Those are basic, almost universal values. Your problem is interpretation not message. 

Take the founding of the U.S., the rights of life, liberty, pursuit of happiness (or property in some cases) was selectively interpreted, despite being considered the inherent rights of man. Many at the time thought it only applied to white, male individuals. Not indigenous or African people. Yet in modern times these values are interpreted in a more inclusive manner because we came to realize how inconsistent their interpretation of those values were with the actual message.



> There wouldn't be this discussion if I hated Uchiha, like you don't insult people who hate the same pairings like you do. Also simple.



I insult my friends all the time, because they can take it. Also most of them ship the pairings I don't like. All of them do...


----------



## Sygurgh (Mar 30, 2013)

The Narutoworld world would be a better place without Uchiha.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Mar 30, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> The Narutoworld world would be a better place without Uchiha.



I too hold entire groups accountable for the actions of a few individuals.


----------



## The enigmaNINJA (Mar 30, 2013)

I dislike Tobirama and definitely lean toward him being on the 'massive asshole' side, but I wouldn't call him the spawn of Satan. Shunning the Uchihas to the outskirts of the village under the pretense that he was 'giving them a role they'd be good at' was not a wise decision. Knowing the Uchiha's history, I don't know how he couldn't foresee a negative outcome arising once he decided to segregate them from the remainder of the village.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Mar 30, 2013)

The enigmaNINJA said:


> I dislike Tobirama and definitely lean toward him being on the 'massive asshole' side, but I wouldn't call him the spawn of Satan. Shunning the Uchihas to the outskirts of the village under the pretense that he was 'giving them a role they'd be good at' was not a wise decision. Knowing the Uchiha's history, I don't know how he couldn't foresee a negative outcome arising once he decided to segregate them from the remainder of the village.



Uchiha avatar.....enough said


----------



## The enigmaNINJA (Mar 30, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Uchiha avatar.....enough said



I knew _someone_ would say that. Sasuke is one Uchiha, just because I like him doesn't mean I'm automatically going to defend the entire clan for no reason other than my own bias. I would disagree with Tobirama regardless of my opinion of the clan. You say that about me, yet you have Tobirama in your signature?


----------



## Quikdraw7777 (Mar 30, 2013)

I love the character, but that doesn't stop me from calling him out on his flaws.

It'd be one thing if he just had a personal grudge with Madara, but his hate and disdain seem to stem all the way to the ENTIRE Uchiha Clan.

The entire Sharingan = lunacy idea has been proven to be not %100 assured with inidividuals such as Itachi and Shisui. These two men had eyes that ranked among the strongest in the clan, and yet they attempted to use their powers to benefit HIS village. HIS citizens. HIS descendants.


I'm sure there were Uchiha in his era that weren't all about their Clan, and tired of the fucking bloodshed. I loves how he forgets that Uchiha Clan pushed Madara aside and welcomed the idea of HIS BROTHER ruling them.

Tobirama = DAT SCUMBAG 
but I love his design, and can't wait to see him get pushed to his limits.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Mar 30, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Uchiha avatar.....enough said



He was right.


----------



## The enigmaNINJA (Mar 30, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> He was right.



For assuming that I disagree with Tobirama because I like Sasuke/the Uchihas? No, he was not.


----------



## son_michael (Mar 30, 2013)

The enigmaNINJA said:


> For assuming that I disagree with Tobirama because I like Sasuke/the Uchihas? No, he was not.



I'm pretty sure he was defending you


----------



## Revolution (Mar 30, 2013)

Gaawa-chan said:


> No in-between option?



I'm with Gaawa-chan.  Still waiting to hear the rest of the story.  It bothers me that people blame Tobirama for the work of Danzo and Hiruzen and the other two Elder Evils.


----------



## The enigmaNINJA (Mar 30, 2013)

son_michael said:


> I'm pretty sure he was defending you



Was he? I thought 'he' was referring to Complete_Ownage. I'm a girl, but I guess there was no way to know that.


----------



## Deleted member 206107 (Mar 30, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> The Narutoworld world would be a better place without Uchiha.



no, it'd be a better place without no one cos errbody be ratchet.


----------



## Namikaze Minato Flash (Mar 30, 2013)

Quikdraw7777 said:


> I love the character, but that doesn't stop me from calling him out on his flaws.
> 
> It'd be one thing if he just had a personal grudge with Madara, but his hate and disdain seem to stem all the way to the ENTIRE Uchiha Clan.
> 
> ...



You map out two individuals and all of a sudden the exception becomes the rule? Need I remind you the hell Itachi put his brother through in order to keep weaving his web of lies? There's nothing 'sane' in that...

And it takes two to tango. Even Naruto who endured far more persecution from the village managed to earn their trust and admiration after putting in the effort. You telling me Madara couldn't do that with Hashirama backing him? Foolishness. The man was weak-hearted and jumped at the first power-grab he could find in the tablets when shit didn't go his way...


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Mar 30, 2013)

The enigmaNINJA said:


> I knew _someone_ would say that. Sasuke is one Uchiha, just because I like him doesn't mean I'm automatically going to defend the entire clan for no reason other than my own bias. I would disagree with Tobirama regardless of my opinion of the clan. You say that about me, yet you have Tobirama in your signature?



Well that might be true but 90% ot the uchicha supporters bash tobirama for no reason. I myself only like tobirama from the senju and could care less about hashirama. No one wants to point out that hashirama wanted to appoint a man that bordered on greatness and absolute lunacy. The same manhis own clan didn't even trust

Tobirama sees the world and people for what they are. Do not forget he was the first one who wanted a shinobi system and wanted peace with the uchiha as well. If tobirama was such a bigot or racist he would of had the clan annihilated after his brothers death but yet he sacrifices his life to pass on the will of fire to the younger generation, which includes the uchiha

Basicaaly tobirama has done more for the shinobi system then anyonr else in the manga. As we the readers see the story now tobiramas actions do not seem rihht however that may have been his only option durring the time. But in the end tobirama has been correct in every aspect along the way


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Mar 30, 2013)

The enigmaNINJA said:


> For assuming that I disagree with Tobirama because I like Sasuke/the Uchihas? No, he was not.



"He" as in you. I'm saying the avatar doesn't really matter. It's basically the flip of what Last Rose of Summer was just doing, which is really ridiculous.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Mar 30, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> The Narutoworld world would be a better place without Uchiha.



You are really neglecting the influence Madara had on Hashirama. It's likely Konoha never would have existed without him.


----------



## Quikdraw7777 (Mar 30, 2013)

Namikaze Minato Flash said:


> You map out two individuals and all of a sudden the exception becomes the rule? Need I remind you the hell Itachi put his brother through in order to keep weaving his web of lies? There's nothing 'sane' in that... And it takes two to tango. Even Naruto who endured far more persecution from the village managed to earn their trust and admiration after putting in the effort. You telling me Madara couldn't do that with Hashirama backing him? Foolishness. The man was weak-hearted and jumped at the first power-grab he could find in the tablets when shit didn't go his way...




When did I say "the exception becomes the rule?"

Tobirama makes things sound like once the Sharingan is awakened, the Uchiha Member in question is *always*  going to be mentally fucked. Itachi and Shisui are 2 people that prove this this is *not*  always the case. Don't know where you're having trouble comprehending that.

Yes, Itachi did put Sauke through hell. All part of a plan that his intelligence orchastrated in order to overtake the real mastermind of Akatsuki. He did all of this for the benefit of Konoha. Hell, in his most recent chapters he referring to himself as:

The Leaf's *Itachi Uchiha*.

Shisui wanted to use Kotoamatsukami to stop the chance of a Civil war, which would've subsequently allowed Konoha to be vulnerable to an invasion by another country. Danzou intercepted his attempt. He then gave his remaining eye to Itachi in order to preserve his hope.

Wow, these guys are mighty damn generous, considering that they should be Ax-Crazy Insane due to having acquired the next level of the Sharingan. But they aren't. Strange......

Madara is one fucking person dude. His brother also felt the same way. People do dumb shit, regardless of their heritage. I find it funny that you have nothing to say about his clan voting against him for the Hokage seat. I suspected anyone replying to my post would turn a blind eye to that speicifc event because it's a huge obstacle to overcome with their arguement.

Tobirama isn't squeaky clean like you believe him to be. Deal with it.


----------



## Gaawa-chan (Mar 30, 2013)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> He believed it until he heard Tobirama's words.



Madara lost heart because of his own defeatist attitude while he spied on a private conversation between people he said he would trust.  His thoughts then spiraled into a worst case scenario and he then went on to perform acts that reinforced the mistrust that people had for the Uchihas.  He is responsible for his own damn actions and no amount of "B-but Tobirama said mean things!" changes that. Character A who did X is not absolved of all responsibility because Character B did Y.




> Where did I say anything of how other people used ET? Tobirama comming up with idea on a jutsu that disturbs the souls of departed, needs killing someone to summon the soul and then uses the summoned human to fight and "wipe the battlefield clean" are on Tobirama alone, not on someone else.
> 
> There is no evidence who put label "forbidden" on ET jutsu.



Let's put aside the fact that they were at war, we don't know why Tobirama invented Edo Tensei, or how he invented it, or when he used it or who he used it on or how often he used it or what the results of him using it were.

You said, and I quote, "He had no qualms of using people for ET. Scarred the whole world with it."

We don't know what his thoughts on his jutsu are as he's never spoken them.  And your second statement is one made in hindsight.  He could not have predicted that other people would use the technique as they have, and yet you fault him for his jutsu 'scarring the world.'  In case you had not noticed, he was not particularly pleased that Orochimaru had learned it.

Furthermore, where is your evidence that Tobirama is a:


> scientist who killed people for his experiments


as you put it? Because the only person I can recall being shown doing this is Orochimaru.

We don't have enough information to make any judgment call about Tobirama and Edo Tensei. Until Kishimoto clears up exactly what Tobirama did and thought with regards to this jutsu; Kishimoto may end up actually doing some of what you have said, but as of right now, your assumptions about it and faulting him for it is puff.




> As I said to someone earlier: Madara had Hashi's support, but mistrust of his own clan, the mistrust of Tobirama and the Senju clan stance on him is an unknown. Tobirama had support of Senju clan, his brother did listen to him enough to agree with him on election's idea, there is no evidence Uchiha hated Tobirama. Out of those two Madara was in worse position, when it comes to defense and implementation of his ideas like telling the Uchiha to leave Hidden Leaf.



I do not recall saying anything to the contrary.




> 1) Link removed
> Hashi telling Tobirama not to kill Madara and not to fight Uchiha anymore.



What happened after Hashirama truly died?  Tobirama KILLED THE UCHI- oh wait, no he didn't. 




> 2) Link removed
> Tobirama discussing with his brother what should be done with Uchihas (not only with Madara), because of the way they fuel their power-ups.
> 
> 3) Tobirama being cut in by Hashi for what he suggest to be done for "the greater good of the  Village".



Ooh, we're playing 'fill in the blanks!'  Okay, okay... here's one:

Tobirama was going to suggest... that the Uchihas be put in charge of the police force and given a secluded place to live near the prisons!

The problem with playing 'fill in the blanks' is that your personal biases will ALWAYS get in the way.  The ONLY honest position to take on this is that we don't know what Tobirama was going to say and unless Kishimoto tells us, we never will.




> 4) When Tobirama heard that Uchihas are dead, he stated their power and destroing each other benefited the Village Link removed while totally ommitting the fact that it was his own students and mental successors' orders, that caused an Uchiha to kill other Uchihas.




1. he could be in Sasuke shoes
Sarutobi does not mention any specific names.  Tobirama is neither psychic nor can he be held culpable for what Sarutobi and Co did and didn't do, particularly after his death any more than Jiraiya can be held culpable for what the rain nin did.

2. He was pointing out the irony of the situation. There is no reason for him to suddenly name-drop his students while discussing this.

3. Faulting him for 'not saying things,' particularly when he was making no comment about blame in that statement and instead trying to say something else entirely.




> 5) Sole notion of "crush Konoha" makes Tobirama say that Sasuke is malevolent like the rest of his clan (no differences are made here, Tobirama clearly says ALL Uchihas are the same)



I have never argued that Tobirama is not biased against the Uchihas.

Did Tobirama kill the Uchihas? No.

Did he use a non-violent 'solution' which in hindsight made matters worse? Yes.

I'm done with this conversation.  All you've done is put words in Tobirama's mouth.  Until I hear him say, "I was planning to wipe out the Uchihas" or "I was going to convince my brother that all the Uchihas should be killed because I thought my brother would have totally taken that even remotely seriously" or "I experimented on innocent people in my evil laboratory to create Edo Tensei so that I could do super evil things with my evil jutsu of evilness" or anything even remotely like that, you've got NOTHING to say except things almost everyone on these forums acknowledge, which is:

1. Tobirama was biased against the Uchihas and

2. Tobirama made a mistake with consequences he did not foresee when he tried to placate the Uchihas by making them the Konoha police force and

3. Some of Tobirama's underlings grew up to be either complete assholes or utter pussies, but he is not responsible for their actions.

The end.


----------



## Namikaze Minato Flash (Mar 30, 2013)

Quikdraw7777 said:


> When did I say "the exception becomes the rule?"



I don't know: the fact that you only named two exceptional Uchiha...?



> Tobirama makes things sound like once the Sharingan is awakened, the Uchiha Member in question is *always*  going to be mentally fucked. Itachi and Shisui are 2 people that prove this this is *not*  always the case. Don't know where you're having trouble comprehending that.



The potential due to the traumatic experience is always there. He was referring to that aspect of loss because one doesn't necessarily take such a thing as a walk in the park especially when feelings of hatred fuels that power further. Your talking about a man who has waged war with such a people his whole life. He had every right to be wary given when the rare cases that power was awakened (the Sharingan is supposedly rare amongst the clan), many lives of the Senju were taken...



> Yes, Itachi did put Sauke through hell. All part of a plan that his intelligence orchastrated in order to overtake the real mastermind of Akatsuki. He did all of this for the benefit of Konoha. Hell, in his most recent chapters he referring to himself as:
> 
> The Leaf's *Itachi Uchiha*.



Yeah, the same Itachi who recognize the cursed bloodline of his clan and realized his objective toward peace had to place their extermination into the equation... 



> wanted to use Kotoamatsukami to stop the chance of a Civil war, which would've subsequently allowed Konoha to be vulnerable to an invasion by another country. Danzou intercepted his attempt. He then gave his remaining eye to Itachi in order to preserve his hope.
> 
> Wow, these guys are mighty damn generous, considering that they should be Ax-Crazy Insane due to having acquired the next level of the Sharingan. But they aren't. Strange......



Again, they are exceptions. I wonder had Madara took that route instead of copping out, then Tobirama's lack of understanding wouldn't have been so cemented. While I don't agree with his tactics concerning the clan when he became Hokage, you have to understand his position in not wanting another of Madara's ilk to rise...



> Madara is one fucking person dude. His brother also felt the same way. People do dumb shit, regardless of their heritage. I find it funny that you have nothing to say about his clan voting against him for the Hokage seat. I suspected anyone replying to my post would turn a blind eye to that speicifc event because it's a huge obstacle to overcome with their arguement.
> 
> Tobirama isn't squeaky clean like you believe him to be. Deal with it.



We don't know the full details other than Tobirama wanted to keep surveillance over them. Some took that as preventing the Uchiha from taking positions of executive power and followed Madara's path, thus warranting more suspicion. And their absence during the Kyuubi attack didn't help matters either...


----------



## The enigmaNINJA (Mar 31, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> "He" as in you. I'm saying the avatar doesn't really matter. It's basically the flip of what Last Rose of Summer was just doing, which is really ridiculous.



Ok, I see.


----------



## Hitomi (Mar 31, 2013)

He's not completely good or evil. he's judgmental and prejudice, like most people are. 

there should be a third option on that poll. ?__?


----------



## Closet Pervert (Apr 1, 2013)

I like Him. He's one of the Brotherhood.


----------



## Tobirama Senju (Apr 1, 2013)

Became his most hardcore fan the moment I saw him, I still am will remain his most hardcore fan right to the end. He's awesome no matter what. We've had enough of goodie-two-shoes character so he's a fresh change from all that. He's good, But a badass good that does things his way. It's like the way he sees things are black and white there's no grey aka In-between for him.
It's funny tho, most of the ppl that hate Tobirama right now would the same thing as him if they were in his place like u know, Something similar happened to them IRL. Why? Because it's as realistic as it gets. Honestly how many of these haters would go like "Oh dude u and your friend killed my 2 brothers and friends and then tried to kill me but it's cool, Let's shake hands and play nice!" after beating up their sworn enemy? The hypocrisy is mighty strong in this forums.

P.S: That "Spawn of Satan" thing made e giggle.


----------



## HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil (Apr 2, 2013)

First of all he's not a racist, it's essentially a family he is prejudice towards not a race of people, and secondly that clan of people have been slaughtering his for his entire lifetime. It is hashirama that is the anomaly not him. It's more comparable to compare this to a platonic Romeo and Juliet as opposed to a race issue, the whole two feuding houses thing. Does anyone consider characters in that to be bigoted? I should hope not. Was he short sighted, possibly, he never sought peace or equality but then why would he? This isn't a baseless prejudice against those different from him, this was him not trusting a clan who warred with his own, and I'm presuming due to him not appearing since, caused the death of his father. Even before the truce there was mention of hashirama needing to kill his brother to bring peace...why would you embrace these people. Mortal enemies with a leader who is clearly unstable...he showed it there, and further confirmed it by essentially going evil with very little motivation. We all thought his brother dying would put him over the edge, and maybe it was the catalyst for all this, ,but in the end he just flipped. It's believable, but it hardly speaks for his already questionable psyche. 
Even Itachi is aware of his own clans ill intentions.
And think what tobirama did, he never killed these people when his brother died, his worst crime is keeping them in check...oh how dare the bigot not trust his mortal enemies...everything he has said has been vindicated throughout the manga, and those who want to claim that his words caused it all...well if that's all it took then Madara was too batshit crazy to be trusted anyway.


----------



## Arles Celes (Apr 2, 2013)

Something in between.

Clearly the guy isn't an idealistic boyscout as his brother and yet he doesn't seem to be so extreme(as of now at least) as say Danzou.

Tobirama is seen as guy who places logic and rational thinking over compassion but probably could have made an exception if it concerned someone he loved an not a clan to whom he lost 2 brothers and most likely hated.

His lack of trust though despite seeming to be justified appears to be portrayed as a serious flaw which lead to more trouble that it solved and creating most of mess that Naruto needs to "clean" in order to change the ninja world for the better.

However, in order for that to work most people(and not just the idealistic leader in charge) must be willing to put aside the differences to work for the common good. I guess this war offered the perfect chance for that.


----------



## Pirao (Apr 2, 2013)

adee said:


> I disagree, he's not at all pragmatic. Hashirama with his idealism is much more pragmatic. If you want stability in a village, you have to be less authoritative, yes but you don't have to be completely "democratic" either. Considering the Senjus won the first round, they had no reason to not cede a little to Uchiha even though the Uchiha were scared enough to vote for Hashirama. *The simple action of making Madara the hokage would have saved the village from much future anguish.*



Says who? Yeah, making a guy nobody liked (not even his own clan), who decided to go against everything the villaged stood for because Tobirama pointed out that nobody would vote for Madara, sounds like a great move, doesn't it?


----------



## Imagine (Apr 2, 2013)

Tobirama - Badass


----------



## Noobster (Apr 2, 2013)

Pirao said:


> Says who? Yeah, making a guy nobody liked (not even his own clan), who decided to go against everything the villaged stood for because Tobirama pointed out that nobody would vote for Madara, sounds like a great move, doesn't it?



I think it was actually because he predicted what would happen to the Uchiha and they didn't listen.


----------



## The777Man (Apr 2, 2013)

Tobirama was wise to be wary of the Uchiha, but he approached the situation too coldly and rationally. That ended up being his undoing. Had he opened up to the Uchiha a bit more, it probably would have made things better. 

The options are too extreme. Tobirama was a good person at heart and a decent leader, but he made some bad decisions that have contributed to the current state of the world (inventing Edo Tensei sure stands out).


----------



## Melas (Apr 2, 2013)

Hilarious thread.

The author seems to be desperate in his attempt to portray Tobirama as a being a primary mover in the internal problems that his village faced ultimately leading to a planned coup and near extermination of a founding clan. This is perhaps another chapter in his book regarding the moral ambiguity of the parties involved as opposed to the clear demarcation established earlier in the series.

Now while the segment about Konoha's crimes against little villages such as Nagato's, the arguments and story-line seemed passable, the current one is just cheap comedy, due to several reasons that do not necessarily require further exploration at this point.

The primary reason for it being comical is that as much a negative light the author wishes to portray Tobirama in, compared to the utterly irresponsible moron of his elder brother and flip-flopping, weak willed, hypocritical, joke of his brother's man-crush, he is not too bad. As for pathetic little Izuna, he is hardly worth commenting upon considering he was just fodder to be killed by Tobirama and instigate Madara's new round of hypocritical bitching.

It is a testament to the just how pathetic the quality of characters was in those times that among the major ones , despite his glaring character flaws, Tobirama emerges as the least "utter trash", so to speak.

So term him racist, bigot, hater or whatever else sates people's bitchig and ranting needs, as a character, I'd place him at the echelon of his era, though that's hardly worthwhile.


----------



## Nikushimi (Apr 2, 2013)

Massive racist asshole.

He's generally right, but motivated by the wrong reasons. I don't think he's entirely insensitive to the Uchiha, though, and I don't think he can be blamed for his prejudice towards them.

He's just another natural product of the system, like the Uchiha themselves.


----------



## HoriMaori (Apr 2, 2013)

May have been said, but wouldn't the term be 'clanist?'

Anyway, no beef with Nidaime. Those Uchiha are scum, which is why they are the villains


----------



## Nikushimi (Apr 2, 2013)

Tobirama is like one of those people who is outspoken against pitbulls because of their supposed genetic predisposition to violence as a breed. The Uchiha being the pitbulls, of course.

Although there may be some empirical evidence to back up his beliefs, whether or not he is right or wrong is something each individual has to determine for themselves. I don't think anyone can objectively say that he is either, although Kishimoto seems to be driving at the idea that there _were_ better alternatives to Tobirama's treatment of the Uchiha.


----------

