# Kakashi's Growth Over an Arc.



## Rocky (Jul 5, 2015)

Just a question pertaining to Kakashi's strength. How much better did he actually get in between the Pain & War arcs? 

It was clear that he still had a ways to go before even reaching the Sannin (Jiraiya) when he fought Pain, but once the war ended, I've seen him tiered next to Itachi and Minato.

So, did he get tiers stronger, or was it just inflation?


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## Alex Payne (Jul 5, 2015)

I think it was both inflation and growth. Kishimoto gave him "above Sannin" father for a reason. Plus early Part 2 statements that Kakashi is still young and developing new jutsu. So Kakashi was planned to at least reach Sannin's general level imo. Kishimoto should have given him some sort of power up from meeting his father in my opinion - to make this growth more realistic. But that would leave Gai out... So, yeah.


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## Rocky (Jul 5, 2015)

So, did he jump between arcs and reach (or surpass) them, and then fall back down once the war ended to be forever below them (and his father)?


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## Sadgoob (Jul 5, 2015)

Gotta' keep in mind that his dad was greater by reputation.

And reputation isn't always hand in hand with strength.


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## Bonly (Jul 5, 2015)

I say it was more so just inflation for the most part. Kakashi always had decent level of chakra/stamina but in the war arc Kishi pretty much took at shit on that idea and let Kakashi use multiple Raikiri's and Kamui's(and things of that nature) after Kakashi was worried about his chakra levels in chapter 568 and he constantly fought until he was actually given extra chakra from Kurama in chapter 609. Otherwise the major/only note in growth he had was his speed with Kamui and nothing else too much besides lolstamina.


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## Alex Payne (Jul 5, 2015)

Kakashi with Kamui-minigun is comfortably above Sannin I believe. Hokage Kakashi level is a mystery. Novel gave him some sort of new main Raiton tech. And I believe that he has the potential to at least reach Sannin level after losing Sharingan. If he continues to push himself. He is basically the new Sarutobi - thousand+ jutsu, every element mastered and god tier intelligence.


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## Deer Lord (Jul 5, 2015)

inb4 raikiri's wall of text.




on topic:
He jumped a tier.
Still below the sannin though.

Anyone who read the obito fight could have seen how wasted kakashi was after he used kamui once or twice.
Even if power inflation made is seem ridiculous.
Being on par with gated gai is kage-level at the very least though, and that is an improvement from the pain arc.


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## Alex Payne (Jul 5, 2015)

Implying there is a whole tier between Pain/Gokage Arc Kakashi and Sannin.


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## Deer Lord (Jul 5, 2015)

In my book there is.


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## Rocky (Jul 5, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Implying there is a whole tier between Pain/Gokage Arc Kakashi and Sannin.



Kakashi was _amazed_ that Jiraiya could fight against Pain (all six of them).

It was pretty evident that he wasn't on their level.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 5, 2015)

Your book sucks.


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## Deer Lord (Jul 5, 2015)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Your book sucks.


Thanks mate.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 5, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Kakashi was _amazed_ that Jiraiya could fight against Pain (all six of them).
> 
> It was pretty evident that he wasn't on their level.



Kakashi was also fighting the two strongest when he said that though.

And IIRC, Jiraiya never saw Deva's ability.


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## Empathy (Jul 5, 2015)

Jiraiya fought all six off-panel, and managed to kill Animal Path a second time at least.

*Edit:* Also, Animal > Asura imo.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 5, 2015)

I'd say it is mostly inflation. There was some growth too but even @ the end of the summit, Kakashi couldn't walk straight after warping a Susano'o arrow with full chakra reserves. 

I think liberal use of Kamui made Kakashi seem alot stronger than he actually is, and the liberal use came mostly  from 2 things. 

1 : He was rarely the front liner, he utilized Kamui mainly a means for support for others. 
2 : Power inflation(increased stamina, less strain).

The first point I mentioned is really major but generally overlooked. Imagine if It was Itachi that was sitting back in turret mode and using Amaterasu on distracted opponents or as means of support. I think we'd have a different perception of Amaterasu. 

With that said, I don't think Kakashi is on the same tier with Minato or Itachi.



Empathy said:


> Jiraiya fought all six off-panel, and managed to kill Animal Path a second time at least.
> 
> *Edit:* Also, Animal > Asura imo.



Deva didn't use his powers on him though. 
We know this because Fukasaku and Shima transfered all their knowledge about Pain to Konoha shinobi and Deva's powers were unknown.


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## Alex Payne (Jul 5, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Kakashi was _amazed_ that Jiraiya could fight against Pain (all six of them).
> 
> It was pretty evident that he wasn't on their level.


Kakashi wasn't amazed. He was questioning Jiraiya's ability to fight 6 at once. And we know that J-Man didn't fight 6 at once(which is evident by Pa having no knowledge on Deva's powers) - he quickly escaped and caught Animal Path in process.

Kakashi wasn't on Sannin level back then. But he was close enough to be considered a suitable replacement for Tsunade. By both J-Man and Tsunade. You don't talk like that about someone two tiers below you.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 5, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Kakashi was _amazed_ that Jiraiya could fight against Pain (all six of them).
> 
> It was pretty evident that he wasn't on their level.



 Jiraiya admitted he couldn't even fight against 3 of the Paths in Ninjutsu or Taijutsu or he would've gotten killed. Kakashi seriously had no knowledge of what occurred during the fight and just assumed Jiraiya could fight against all of the Paths which we know is false.


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## Duhul10 (Jul 5, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Kakashi was also fighting the two strongest when he said that though.
> 
> And IIRC, Jiraiya never saw Deva's ability.



dunno what to say about that, Fukasaku stated that EACH BODY CAN ONLY USE ONE POWER
and that finding out which is the ability is the key 

given extra chakra

and apparently, they did not know about Asura's abbilities either ( they did not show to know anything ), even though Fukasaku was there when Jiraiya was blindsided and saw asura and he saw the last projectile throw,yet nobody knew about that.

And they did not seem to know anything about human either


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## Jad (Jul 5, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> But that would leave Gai out... So, yeah.



Pretty sure Gai never made a miss step when fighting any of the top dogs except for Juubidara who he did more to than Minato or anyone else previously. That includes a list of modified Jinchuuruki, Obito, Gedomazou, Six Tails, Madara, Hachibi amplified Kisame. That's an impressive list of high level opponents that most of the Sannin didn't oppose at all.


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## Mercurial (Jul 5, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Just a question pertaining to Kakashi's strength. How much better did he actually get in between the Pain & War arcs?
> 
> It was clear that he still had a ways to go before even reaching the Sannin (Jiraiya) when he fought Pain, but once the war ended, I've seen him tiered next to Itachi and Minato.
> 
> So, did he get tiers stronger, or was it just inflation?



Shippuden pre War Arc Kakashi is stronger than that, anyway. In the 3rd databook is textually stated that Shippuden Kakashi is (at time before volume 43) Konoha's best ninja (> Gai, > Jiraiya, >> pre SM Naruto, >>> Tsunade) (). Viz scan. And by feats that definitely makes sense.

And yeah, War Arc 1 MS Kakashi is at the very least a tier upper his Shippuden pre War Arc incarnation: gaining perfect MS mastery with offensive and defensive long range Kamui (a dojutsu praised for his power by Rinnegan Madara), learning to teleport himself with Kamui and to re-warp back things he warped in the Kamui dimension, better speed/CQC feats and much, much, much better chakra to spend for his jutsu, powerful new Raiton jutsu (Raiden, Raikiri infused weapons) hype as one of the main players of the war and so on.

DMS Rikudo Kakashi with offensive Kamui that proved to be faster than Kaguya's S/T (that was so fast that blitzed Rinnegan Sasuke and almost blitzed Rikudo Senjutsu Naruto), defensive Kamui with phasing that is basically a perfect defense, Rikudo enhanced flying Perfect Susanoo that spams Kamui Shuriken (either one of them that creates a warp as big as the Perfect Susanoo itself) and can be used together with Kamui powers, self teleporting at max speed with both eyes together powered up with Rikudo chakra (basically a seal-less Hiraishin), Kamui Raikiri that blitzed and wounded the most powerful version of Kaguya in one panel (something that Naruto and Sasuke couldn't accomplish fighting together against a less powerful version of Kaguya), and other shit again, is obviously god tier hella powerful among the other god tier players.

Sharinganless Hokage Kakashi loses Sharingan (with all his benefits, precognition, genjutsu offense/defense, jutsu preempting and copying... and sadly also the good old dash with Raikiri + Sharingan precognition) and Mangekyo Sharingan (Kamui GG hax) and clearly everything he had for a brief time thanks to Obito's power up in the end of the fight against Kaguya. Still he is very very powerful with things like Raiton: Shinden (that amazed Onoki in the novel), Raiden, Raiton Kage Bunshin/Kage Bunshin feint + Raikiri, Raijuu Tsuiga, Raikiri infused weapons, Suiton Daibafuku/Suiryodan + Raijuu Tsuiga, great speed and taijutsu, top notch intellect. He is not a haxxed fighter, nor as deadly in CQC and quick exchanges as he was before, but he can defeat most of S-rank levels anyway, just fighting in a different way thanks to his tactical skill.



Rocky said:


> Kakashi was _amazed_ that Jiraiya could fight against Pain (all six of them).
> 
> It was pretty evident that he wasn't on their level.



Jiraiya never really fought the Six Paths at full power, since Fukasaku said nothing about Deva powers, that Kakashi had to discover by himself, hence Deva never really fought against Jiraiya, as he never used his Rinnegan powers against him. Deva alone > all the other bodies together. Nagato felt the need to send only Animal Path to fight Jiraiya. Jiraiya felt he needed to use his trump card, Sennin Mode, against only Animal Path. Later, in Sennin Mode, he admitted he was overwhelmed and with no chances to win against Animal, Preta and Human, and he had to run away and resort to a tactical move that was possible only in that favorable environment. 

Kakashi was fighting Deva Path, the strongest Path by far, the one that didn't need to even reveal his real powers against Jiraiya, and still Nagato felt the need to send Asura to help Deva against Kakashi, with Asura probably being Nagato's second strongest Path. Kakashi managed to fight both of them, discovering their powers, tricking and cornering them not once, but twice, without any need to use his trump card (Mangekyo Sharingan). Kakashi would have killed Deva and Asura with no plot fucking him: Asura was paralyzed and Deva had no klue on his position and just used his gravitational power: Kakashi could have easily silent blitzed him (like he did against Kakuzu) with Raikiri, or just use Kamui on him to warp his head off, we saw that his Kamui was already fast enough to warp away a missile, and a Shinra Tensei propelled nail with Deva unable to tell that he did: the Akimichi actually hindered him, because they fucked up what would have been Kakashi's following attack to Deva, since they were too slow to hit him even with a surprise attack, and weren't unable to kill Asura (that Kakashi would have defeated later); they only helped to distract Deva and pull the chains that Kakashi already prepared to capture him, but a couple of Kage Bunshin (to attack Deva from left and right) and a couple of fodder Mizu Bunshin (just to pull the chains) could have easily do the same.



Deer Lord said:


> In my book there is.



As people already said, your book sucks. And sadly Masashi Kishimoto thinks differently.



Jad said:


> Pretty sure Gai never made a miss step when fighting any of the top dogs except for Juubidara who he did more to than Minato or anyone else previously. That includes a list of modified Jinchuuruki, Obito, Gedomazou, Six Tails, Madara, Hachibi amplified Kisame. That's an impressive list of high level opponents that most of the Sannin didn't oppose at all.



Gai wasn't Kakashi's eternal rival just for show.


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## Euraj (Jul 5, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> I think it was both inflation and growth. Kishimoto gave him "above Sannin" father for a reason. Plus early Part 2 statements that Kakashi is still young and developing new jutsu. So Kakashi was planned to at least reach Sannin's general level imo. Kishimoto should have given him some sort of power up from meeting his father in my opinion - to make this growth more realistic. But that would leave Gai out... So, yeah.


Not necessarily. Guy was kept out of the Pain fight entirely and I'm fairly sure that was because he was planning on making him the level he was. And Guy said all the way back in Part I that he was stronger than Kakashi, so he was always a wild card. Kakashi was the one given the chance to go all out, flopped, and then suddenly he had the stamina of Zeus. 

There must have been a hella long time between the Summit and the war or something.


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## Rocky (Jul 5, 2015)

Jiraiya did fight all of the bodies at once guys. On a phone so I can't post links, but you can clearly see destruction in the environment that was not present before all of them jumped at Jiraiya.


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## thechickensage (Jul 5, 2015)

Kakashi is one of Konoha's best shinobi of all time, but with his sharingan gone, he's taken down from the peak of his baddassery... but if Mei and freaking Chojuro are considered Kage level, then Kakashi should be as well, even without the sharingan

By growth over an arc, I'm assuming you mean the war arc?  Well, Kishi removed certain rules about his endurance, letting him spam techniques (cough, kamui) that required intense concentration and wasted a lot of stamina.  

I think Kakashi is FAR MORE INTERESTING after losing the sharingan, and I would like to have seen him in fights without it to see how his fighting style changed...like if he still dares to use chidori without a sharingan, or if he developed a replacement lightning-based jutsu.

Kakashi is coolest when he wields many different jutsus and shows creativity in combat, and removing the sharingan is the best way to force him to use that genius intellect of his


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## FlamingRain (Jul 5, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Kakashi wasn't amazed. He was questioning Jiraiya's ability to fight 6 at once.



What translation did you read?

And what do you think he would have even based that on to begin with anyway? He only had Fukasaku's first-hand account of what happened to go by.



> J-Man didn't fight 6 at once(which is evident by Pa having no knowledge on Deva's powers) - he quickly escaped and caught Animal Path in process.



I think the change in _the_ _surroundings_ (which Rocky has mentioned) and the apparent disappearance of _Jiraiya's headband_ suggest otherwise.

Jiraiya saying he "finally" caught one implies it wasn't during a quick escape that Animal was caught, and I'm not sure what Pa having no knowledge on Deva's powers is based on.



> Kakashi wasn't on Sannin level back then. But he was close enough to be considered a suitable replacement for Tsunade. By both J-Man and Tsunade.



It'd have been one thing if they were both being considered at the same time, but Tsunade wasn't even being considered there because they were entertaining the possibilities _in the event that she left_.

I don't think being a worthy candidate for the Hokage position means being close to the person who previously held that spot.


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## Ersa (Jul 5, 2015)

Kakashi in the War Arc progressed to the point where he can comfortably match the Sannin and even those a bit better like terminal illness Itachi and Killer B. Anyone in the above tier will still stomp him though, people like Nagato, Minato and Edo Itachi still wipe the floor with him since they have means of dealing with Kamui and superior firepower or techniques. 

Before that I'd say he was even with most of the Gokage, his mastery of Kamui was good but his stamina was a serious issue and portrayal showed him being heavily outclassed by two members of Pain.


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## Turrin (Jul 5, 2015)

Kakashi got stronger, but he had the ability to Kamui snipe at high speeds back int he Pain-Arc and still clearly considered Jiraiya much stronger than him. So to be perfectly honest, I think it's just a matter of Sannin underestimation and Kamui overestimation.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 5, 2015)

After what happened with Sakura I think Kishi just stopped caring about being consistent with stamina levels at some point.

Or something about being close to the other Kamui Mangekyō had an impact on Kakashi.

I am really lookin' at that first one, though.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 5, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Kakashi got stronger, but he had the ability to Kamui snipe at high speeds back int he Pain-Arc and still clearly considered Jiraiya much stronger than him. So to be perfectly honest, I think it's just a matter of Sannin underestimation and Kamui overestimation.



He blinked the Deidara clone out of existence even before that.


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## Turrin (Jul 5, 2015)

^
People bring up Kakashi's increased stamina like it's some big mystery. The fact of the matter is stamina is not the issue, as no one ever talks stamina when arguing Kakashi wins, instead they talk Kamui GG like it's an free one-shot Technique. However like I said above Kakashi already had that super quick Kamui sniping ability in the Pain arc, yet was still in shock over Jiraiya's strength, so it's clearly overrated.



Strategoob said:


> He blinked the Deidara clone out of existence even before that.


True, which just supports the notion even more, that Kamui is overrated.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 5, 2015)

I think he got slightly stronger over time , he didn't jump up a tier in my opinion , he's still not strong as the sannin , his stamina and Kamui usage increased to the point where he can compete with them


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## The Undying (Jul 5, 2015)

My guess is that Kakashi didn't necessarily get _stronger_ so much as he was able to push himself to his absolute limits during the war. His statement after fighting Edo Zabuza sort of implies this.


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## Alex Payne (Jul 6, 2015)

So let me get this straight

1) 100% SM Jiraiya admits that three passively acting Paths would kill him if he doesn't come up with the plan
2) Just one Path without using his ability managed to stab one-armed Jiraiya while being inside J-Man's jutsu
3) Fukusaku had no knowledge on Deva Path
4) Pain wanted Jiraiya dead. Badly. Bansho Tennin into Asura/Human is like no-brainer.

You really want to argue that crippled Jiraiya fought against a unit superior to one 100% Jiraiya himself admits would kill him? That crippled Jiraiya countered Deva Path without prior knowledge? And that Fukusaku instantly forgot about that? And that after fighting 6 Paths Jiraiya suddenly got wounded by just 1 ? 

Don't you think something like - Shima throws up Dust Cloud, Asura shoots some rockets, Fukusaku summons Gourd Toad, Animal Path rushes and gets wrecked after stabbing Jiraiya would make more sense? Jiraiya knew he didn't stand a chance. Trying to fight and not hide is a bad idea.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 6, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Just a question pertaining to Kakashi's strength. How much better did he actually get in between the Pain & War arcs?
> 
> It was clear that he still had a ways to go before even reaching the Sannin (Jiraiya) when he fought Pain, but once the war ended, I've seen him tiered next to Itachi and Minato.
> 
> So, did he get tiers stronger, or was it just inflation?



He was also exceptionally different at the end of the War Arc, if you think about, that short time he was DMS, changed his chakra because apparently Kakashi can use all the elements right now whereas before best he could do was lightning, water and earth (same as Obito).

The only thing holding him back was his stamina and he conquered that in the war arc as well. He was only a tier behind Itachi, Jiraiya and half a tier behind Orochimaru/Tsunade, so it's not a big jump to conclude he hit that mark.

Of course this is assuming Kakashi still has the one sharingan and access to Kamui.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 6, 2015)

IMO the author retconned how elements work.

All ninja can _potentially_ use all five, if they practice hard at it.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 6, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> IMO the author retconned how elements work.
> 
> All ninja can _potentially_ use all five, if they practice hard at it.


You think so? It was such a huge deal when we first saw the rin'negan though, that's why I made such a big thing about it. On the other hand, we'll never know how much the rikoudu chakra effected Kakashi, apparently it made the Kamui eyes super strong, so I'm wondering what other effects it may have had on the body.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 6, 2015)

I'm certain the DataBook confirmed Kakashi being capable of using all 5 elements. 

 With the Rinnegan, it was implied that the user could * master * every jutsu making the implication that a user with the Sage's Chakra has an affinity for all elements. Kakashi doesn't have to fit that criteria and it's pretty much established he only has an affinity in Raiton, but has gained experience with all elements due to his Sharingan perception.


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## Trojan (Jul 6, 2015)

He improved slightly until he got Obito's chakra at the very end of the Arc. 

Besides that, not really much. He still needed help to deal with Zabuza's mist attack.
He basically did not do much of a damage if any to the Jinchuurikis

...etc

throughout the war arc Narudo/Sakura kept recharging him, and as such having a stronger attack.

Besides Kakashi with Obito's power, he is still weaker than the Sannin. Being tied with itachi, is not saying much
either since he (itachi) is on that level as well...

Tho itachi is still stronger than Kakashi.


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## Ersa (Jul 6, 2015)

Yes, tell me more about how Itachi is weaker then Orochimaru.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 6, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Yes, tell me more about how Itachi is weaker then Orochimaru.



 There's nothing to talk about. Orochimaru outright admitted inferiority to Itachi.


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## Ersa (Jul 6, 2015)

He also one-paneled him twice.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 6, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> He also one-paneled him twice.



 Both times at which he wasn't even at his best.


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## Trojan (Jul 6, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Yes, tell me more about how Itachi is weaker then Orochimaru.



If this is directed at me, then I don't know what do you mean. 

Itachi is going to defeat Oro if a battle happened. I don't think I ever denied that.


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## Ersa (Jul 6, 2015)

You said Kakashi is weaker then the Sannin and tied with Itachi. Doesn't that mean he's weaker then Tsuande and Orochimaru? 

Because being beaten twice and admitting inferiority doesn't mean you're stronger unless I'm mistaken.


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## Trojan (Jul 6, 2015)

that was about the OP's statement


> I've seen him tiered next to Itachi and Minato. So, did he get tiers stronger, or was it just inflation?



And you know that I don't fall for "itachi is "way"/stronger than the sanin"
Itachi with the sannin as presented in the manga is a matter of match ups. Yes, if itachi and Oro fight, itachi
will end up being the winner. Just like how if Itachi and Jiraiya fight, Jiraiya will end up being the winner. 

They are on the same level, but match ups are pretty much what will decide which one will end up winning. 

And honestly I think it's fairly obvious that Kishi's treatment of Jiraiya's character far exceeds that of Oro's (and itachi's). 
since some of itachi's fans seem to think that based on "Kishi's treatment" of X character. 

Edit:



> Sharingan is originally from Jiraiya児雷也(not Jiraiya 自来也in Naruto) off the classical ninja story. Kish didn't want to overload Jiraiya by giving sharingan that he let Uchiha have it instead.
> Mr. Kobayashi says that made the manga the most eye centred story ever.



Kishi does not think Jiraiya needs the Sharingan (unlike Oro who keeps fapping over it)



> 5.Kishi feel that Jiraiya's death was spectacular, therefore if he was edo tensei, it would be hard to draw naruto's reaction. that's why jiraiya did not re-appear.



and the only reason why he did not bring him back because he felt his death is great, and about Narudo's reaction. He never cared as much for ruining itachi's death, nor did he think it was as awesome. Neither did he have a problem with Sasuke's reaction. 

1- I think it obvious that Kishi's respect Jiraiya's character more.
2- If he ever did, he would have KCM Narudo, against Jiraiya. So, it's not like if those "feats" itachi did 
are impossible to Jiraiya in Kishi's head as in the fan's heads.


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## Santoryu (Jul 6, 2015)

Good enough to be relevant against the likes of Obito, Version 2 Jjnjuruki, and even Kaguya, albeit wit a few boosts. The man was praised by Rikuddo Sennin and Sage Madara. Need I say more?


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## Trojan (Jul 6, 2015)

He barely did anything by himself. 



> . The man was praised by Rikuddo Sennin


Not for his power.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 6, 2015)

"few boosts"


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## Atlantic Storm (Jul 6, 2015)

An interesting thread, but it doesn't quite fit in the Naruto Battledome.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 7, 2015)

Xillia said:


> Good enough to be relevant against the likes of Obito, Version 2 Jjnjuruki, and even Kaguya, albeit wit a few boosts. The man was praised by Rikuddo Sennin and Sage Madara. Need I say more?



DMS Kakashi is on another realm, I think OP wanted to say everything prior to that.


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## Xadidax (Jul 7, 2015)

Kakashi can't even use Raikiri anymore due to the loss of his sharingan.
So I'd say his development power-wise after the war arc definitely was slightly downgraded. But still, he DID become a JOUNIN at such a young age. In fact, after Rin's death (and Obito's supposed death), he became an Anbu and was considered 'too dangerous' to join them in missions since he was ruthlessly killing enemies IIRC


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## MS81 (Jul 7, 2015)

Kakashi and Gai duo are better than hashirama and madara duo imo....


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jul 8, 2015)

Please, no rogue ranking/tiering threads. Thanks.

_ Moving it back to the Battledome ~ Luna_


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## Cord (Jul 10, 2015)

I've always thought that the Kakashi who fought Pain was as strong as the Kakashi in the war arc. No substantial growth whatsoever, but I won't deny that he indeed somehow improve his Kamui usage in the latter arc by being more accustomed to using it (as seen when he did not immediately succumb to its effects after a few Kamui snipes compared to what we've seen in his previous fights). He died when he reached "his limit" against Pain and the time interval between that battle and the war hasn't been that long to ensure Kakashi somehow grew substantially . At least, not in that miniscule of a period. 

That said, I'm of the opinion that he's Sannin level in both of his incarnates.


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## Turrin (Jul 11, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> 1) 100% SM Jiraiya admits that three passively acting Paths would kill him if he doesn't come up with the plan
> 2) Just one Path without using his ability managed to stab one-armed Jiraiya while being inside J-Man's jutsu
> 3) Fukusaku had no knowledge on Deva Path
> 4) Pain wanted Jiraiya dead. Badly. Bansho Tennin into Asura/Human is like no-brainer.
> ...


AP the entire Jiraiya vs Pain battle was constructed around the idea that lack of knowledge against Pain was killer and Jiraiya was struggling against the paths because he lacked that knowledge. That's why as the battle progressed and Jiraiya gained more knowledge on the paths, he began to perform better against them. He went from accomplishing nothing against them when initially engaging them in SM, to using various Ninjutsu techniques to game around their abilities effectively in the hallway, because he began to form hypothesis on how Pain's abilities worked. That's also why the entire Pain arc was about the intel Jiraiya had gathered, Naruto putting that to use against Pain, Pain suggesting that hypothetically Jiraiya might have won w/ more intel, etc... Kishi may not have done the best job showing why w/o intel Jiraiya was useless against Pain, but with it his abilities proved useful, but that was the very clear authorial intent behind Jiraiya vs Pain and the Pain Arc.

So if your asking does it make sense that Jiraiya later in the match even down 1 arm, but possessing much more intel could perform better than he did previously in the match, enough so to take on the 6 Paths and than seal one in Toad Gourd, than yes, that fits exactly with what the arc presented us. As far as Deva Realm goes, the fact of the matter is we don't know how Pain fights w/ all 6 Paths present and Deva Path not on cool down. We literally never saw that, but he may still have stayed in that general formation where Ashura, Human, HG, and Animal take point, while Deva is in the middle and Naraka is in the back, with Deva both acting to protect Naraka if need be and as the necessary triumph card if the other paths are defeated or loosing. So Jiraiya may never have fought Deva's ability, he may have just fought the 4 other paths and while Ashura's abilities are unknown, they are a bit more straight forward and easy to adapt to than when Jiraiya was still unaware of duel vision and HG Realm. 

As far as the proposed scenario where Ashura simply fires off missiles and than Jiraiya flees, I really can't get behind that, because if it was such a short scene, than why didn't Kishi just show it, as it's not like he's saving many panels by not showing it. Usually off screen fighting is only used as a tool when a decent amount of the battle is skipped to save time or leave a great deal of abilities hidden. Plus the damage to the area does not seem consistent with that, while some parts look like they could have been caused by Ashura's Missiles, some other parts are too small or precise bits of damage to be caused by missiles. The way that there is different types of damage everywhere certainly suggests a great deal of fight off panel, which conforms with the troupe of how the off panel works better than a mere few seconds happening off panel.

Edit: That would also explain why Fukasaku was not at all surprised about Ashura's Rocket Fist, if he had used it previously off panel, and that's probably why Naruto mentions that Fukaksaku knew that Naraka was the one that could revive the other paths, because he probably saw Naraka use that power off panel.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 11, 2015)

Kakashi didn't seem to be all too different at the start of War Arc.  He also complained about chakra a lot, though complaining was all it seemed to amount to.  

Kakashi was supposed to reach that high a level, but Kishi did it by tying Kakashi's general level to his kamui, and then amping up his kamui to god levels.  So Kakashi became god.  At first I thought Kishi accidentally broke Kakashi, but didn't mean for him to be as broken as he was.  Then he started making it clear Kakashi was supposed to suddenly be that much more awesome, and it was done near exclusively through his kamui cannon.  A second kamui upgrade let him cut a god in half.  Hokage Kakashi is going to be generally kage level, but I don't think he's god anymore.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 11, 2015)

Atlantic Storm said:


> An interesting thread, but it doesn't quite fit in the Naruto Battledome.





Vaatu said:


> Please, no rogue ranking/tiering threads. Thanks.
> 
> _Moving it back to the Battledome ~ Luna_



Fight!  Fight!  Fight!


----------



## Cord (Jul 11, 2015)

Oh, I was the one who moved it back to the Bottledome. 

We're gonna have a triple threat match, Sannin style.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 11, 2015)

lol, this mods "fight" as short as it is, but it was hilarious!


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 11, 2015)

Lunα said:


> Oh, I was the one who moved it back to the Bottledome.
> 
> We're gonna have a triple threat match, Sannin style.



You know just for this debacle, we should make all three of you guys answer the thread debate style with one response each to answer the original question, and we'll determine who provided the best answer based on the panel of judges I have listed below  

Judges: Grimmjow, Turrin, Hussain, NarutoX28, Alex Payne, Rocky, Bonly

I'll take bets 

The winner will choose where the thread stays


----------



## Santoryu (Jul 12, 2015)

Objection!



asked _Shizune,_



Turrin said:


> Kakashi got stronger, but he had the ability to Kamui snipe at high speeds back int he Pain-Arc


But it was far more *detrimental * (at least in terms of the immediate after effects) to him back then. Even in the 5 Kage arc this happened: 



> and still clearly considered Jiraiya much stronger than him.


As a poster noted earlier, Kakashi wasn't aware that Jiraiya avoided engaging Deva in direct combat-but I digress, since Jiraiya *was stronger* than Kakashi at the point in the story.




> So to be perfectly honest, I think it's just a matter of *Sannin **underestimation* and *Kamui overestimation*.


That's a poor argument. Why does Kakashi, a main character, that has access to arguably the most broken jutsu in the series being stronger than the Sannin result in their underestimation? It doesn't. 

Thanks to Kamui, Obito was dancing around the likes of Naruto and Bee with absolute ease. Didn't Minato put it above his own space-time jutsu? 




Turrin said:


> ^
> People bring up Kakashi's increased stamina like it's some big mystery.


Considering it was in the final arc, it's not overly-surprising. 



> The fact of the matter is stamina is not the issue, as no one ever talks stamina when arguing Kakashi wins,


But it was, no? Keep in mind this was the man that would pass out after using the Sharingan for a little bit whilst only using a few jutsu. I'm aware that he was out of the shape at the time, but he has gotten stronger with every fight in the series. We seldom get extensive training arcs to highlight this, so we need to use common sense.



> instead they talk Kamui GG like it's an free one-shot Technique.


Against most of the Narutoverse, it is.



> However like I said above Kakashi already had that super quick Kamui sniping ability in the Pain arc, yet was still in shock over Jiraiya's strength, so it's clearly *overrated*.


A technique that's praised by Sage-Madara? Dude, he was indeed shocked by Jiraiya's battle with Pain, but the following arc he's confident enough to erase "Madara" out of existence? 
As stated earlier Kamui was more detrimental to him back then, nothing indicates he could use it to the same extent back then-but it was still deadly even during its infancy (sniping off Deidara's arm).



> True, which just supports the notion even more, that Kamui is* overrated*.


Call it what you will, but the facts are there to support that it's almost unstoppable: 

We clearly see Kakashi having problems using the regular Sharingan for even short periods of time earlier on in the series, but we later see him using it all day. He grew accustomed to it. He grew stronger. Same deal with the Mangekyo-Sharingan, expect it's even more detrimental. It's the final arc of a battle manga, trying to make sense of every single detail to justify Kakashi's huge power ups is just silly.


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## Turrin (Jul 12, 2015)

@Xillia

An increase in stamina doesn't have any effect on Kakashi's ability to one-shot with Kamui. Since he doesn't need extra stamina if he only needs one shot. Kakashi did improve during the Kage and War Arcs, because all Mangekyo users improve as they use their Mangekyo more in battle, but that is besides the point i'm making. If Kakashi considered Jiraiya much stronger than him in the Pain-Arc, Kamui is not oneshotting characters of Jiriaya's stature.


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## Mercurial (Jul 12, 2015)

Turrin said:


> @Xillia
> 
> An increase in stamina doesn't have any effect on Kakashi's ability to one-shot with Kamui. Since he doesn't need extra stamina if he only needs one shot. Kakashi did improve during the Kage and War Arcs, because all Mangekyo users improve as they use their Mangekyo more in battle, but that is besides the point i'm making. If Kakashi considered Jiraiya much stronger than him in the Pain-Arc, Kamui is not oneshotting characters of Jiriaya's stature.



He didn't. Pre War Arc Kakashi > Jiraiya by both feats (far more speed + Sharingan precognition + Raiton ninjutsu applied to CQC and to quick dashes that Jiraiya can't really survive, smarter, top notch clone feints that fooled Pain and Itachi with Raiton Kage Bunshin and Kage Bunshin, top notch Raiton > Doton: Yomi Numa, Sharingan precognition + fast handseals + Doton mastery > Doton: Yomi Numa, Doton underground fast travelling > Gamayu Endan, Suiton > Katon, Raiton > Doton, Raijuu Tsuiga that Jiraiya can't really defend from, Sharingan genjutsu that Jiraiya can't fight, Mangekyo Sharingan with long range Kamui that Jiraiya can't do anything against, Preta Path was dancing and running circles around Bunta so Kakashi will play with him since the next arc he is fending off multiple V2 Bijuu) and hype (databook calling Kakashi as Konoha's best shinobi, Pain sending weaker bodies to fight Jiraiya who was using his trump card than the ones he sent to fight Kakashi who didn't use his trump card). War Arc Kakashi pastes on Jiraiya, he is just that deadly. 

War Arc 1 MS Kakashi is at the very least a tier upper his Shippuden pre War Arc incarnation: gaining perfect MS mastery with offensive and defensive long range Kamui (a dojutsu praised for his power by Rinnegan Madara), learning to teleport himself with Kamui (sign or full mastery of the jutsu: as said in the 4th databook only with perfect mastery of the eye one can use the self warping to self teleport) and to re-warp back things he warped in the Kamui dimension, better speed/CQC feats and much, much, much better chakra to spend for his jutsu, powerful new Raiton jutsu (Raiden, Raikiri infused weapons) hype as one of the main players of the war and so on. More chakra/stamina lets him fight better, relying more on Mangekyo more and being even more on the offensive, and being able to handle an eventual prolonged battle against another strong character.

DMS Rikudo Kakashi is a top player among the god tiers so I won't even bring him to the equation. Jiraiya is stronger only that part 1 Kakashi.

Yes he is by both feats (here under spoiler tag) and hype (here under spoiler tag). If he is warping head sized masses so fast that they outspeed point blank Kamui propelled stake and Rinnegan Obito's reflexes (with full knowledge on the jutsu and the fact that it was going to be used) or in response to sudden attacks from Juubi jinchuriki or even giant things in the meantime of an istant Kuchiyose no jutsu, with KCM Minato not able to visually track what happened and Rinnegan Madara prasing the power of the dojutsu and the skill of the wielder, yes, yes he is.


*Spoiler*: __ 



- Kakashi can canonically warp a human body part (an head sized object) in the same time Obito needs to make it intangible and of a movement of 5 cm from KCM Naruto rushing to attack Obito (2)(3)
- Kakashi warps away two Susanoo arrows when both are already at half their way and his Sharingan was still the 3 tomoe one (4)(5)
- Kakashi warps away Minato's Rasengan countered by Juudara really in no time (6), Minato's arm kicked from Madara was hella fast if we think that Minato's body (obviously heavier and so less fast of the arm) went on Gaara so fast that his auto-defense couldn't activate in time (7); it also was a completely surprise attack that suddenly come out from Gaara's sand wall that blocked Kakashi's LoS (11).
- Kakashi warps away a giant arm of the Gedo Mazo while Madara is already summoning it away with instant space-time summoning jutsu (9) (Minato couldn't do anything in that situation than ask Kakashi taking care of it, Minato of all people couldn't even perceived what happened when Kakashi used Kamui on the Gedo Mazo, and had to ask him if he managed to kill it in time)
- Kakashi feints to warp Naruto's Rasengan and then insta-warps away his body before Obito's Kamui propelled stakes could hit him even with a point blank shot (before Kamui shooted stake that was hitting BM Naruto could move for more than a couple of cm), managing to make Obito think that Kakashi missed and he succesfully hit the clone (10)(11)(12) when actually Kakashi changed his warp from Naruto's Rasengan to his entire body, warping it with such speed and timing that Obito (with full knowledge (13) and top tier reactions boosted by Mangekyo and Rinnegan eyes) couldn't notice or perceive it. That was when Kakashi was moving fast (14)(15) and wasn't that close to the objective (16).
- Kakashi with a Kurama chakra supply (that was said to have increased 3x the power of his jutsu) could warp the Hachibi in the Kamui dimension and then re-warp it in the real world, and then finished all the chakra (17)(18)(19). Taking on account that Kakashi used also some chakra right before to travel between the Kamui world and the real world, I'd say it is pretty much clear that without any chakra supply he can warp a mass that is slightly bigger than 1/3 of the Hachibi (so also Kamui GG his head or any Bijuu's head with relative ease, with the fast execution shown against the Gedo Mazo... or things like a V4 Susanoo from Itachi).

So Kakashi can Kamui away human head sized objects in a more or less instant time and even with fast moving objects/people and unpredictable situations. And he can Kamui away human body sized objects in also nearly istant times, and even giant objects.





*Spoiler*: __ 



Thanks to the Kurama's chakra supply from Naruto, Kakashi's Kamui was depicted as a dangerous threat for even the Juubi. Just read what is said from databook about Kakashi's Kamui (and that was when it wasn't perfected yet) ()() and what Kakashi says after having faced the Rinnegan (knowing all its powers as he created counters to them together with Gai) and being against one believed to be Uchiha Madara and wielding the Rinnegan (22), not to mention that he was already confident that he could take out Madara (someone that he fully believed to be Madara) with Kamui pre War Arc. Kakashi's Kamui warped away even Juubi's jinchuriki Madara's Onmyoton Release who nullifies all ninjutsu bar the ones used with senjutsu chakra. Kamui is so powerful that one single eye make Kamui wielders more powerful than other Mangekyo Sharingan users that have both eyes.




He didn't consider him stronger at all. Jiraiya never really fought the Six Paths at full power, since Fukasaku said nothing about Deva powers, that Kakashi had to discover by himself, hence Deva never really fought against Jiraiya, as he never used his Rinnegan powers against him. Deva alone > all the other bodies together. Nagato felt the need to send only Animal Path to fight Jiraiya. Jiraiya felt he needed to use his trump card, Sennin Mode, against only Animal Path. Later, in Sennin Mode, he admitted he was overwhelmed and with no chances to win against Animal, Preta and Human, and he had to run away and resort to a tactical move that was possible only in that favorable environment.

Kakashi was fighting Deva Path, the strongest Path by far, the one that didn't need to even reveal his real powers against Jiraiya, and still Nagato felt the need to send Asura to help Deva against Kakashi, with Asura probably being Nagato's second strongest Path. Kakashi managed to fight both of them, discovering their powers, tricking and cornering them not once, but twice, without any need to use his trump card (Mangekyo Sharingan). Kakashi would have killed Deva and Asura with no plot fucking him: Asura was paralyzed and Deva had no klue on his position and just used his gravitational power: Kakashi could have easily silent blitzed him (like he did against Kakuzu) with Raikiri, or just use Kamui on him to warp his head off, we saw that his Kamui was already fast enough to warp away a missile, and a Shinra Tensei propelled nail with Deva unable to tell that he did: the Akimichi actually hindered him, because they fucked up what would have been Kakashi's following attack to Deva, since they were too slow to hit him even with a surprise attack, and weren't unable to kill Asura (that Kakashi would have defeated later); they only helped to distract Deva and pull the chains that Kakashi already prepared to capture him, but a couple of Kage Bunshin (to attack Deva from left and right) and a couple of fodder Mizu Bunshin (just to pull the chains) could have easily do the same.

In the 3rd databook is textually stated that Shippuden pre War Arc Kakashi is (at time before volume 43) Konoha's best ninja (> Gai, > Jiraiya, >> pre SM Naruto, >>> Tsunade) (). Viz scan. And by feats that definitely makes sense.

War Arc 1 MS Kakashi is at the very least a tier upper his Shippuden pre War Arc incarnation: gaining perfect MS mastery with offensive and defensive long range Kamui (a dojutsu praised for his power by Rinnegan Madara), learning to teleport himself with Kamui and to re-warp back things he warped in the Kamui dimension, better speed/CQC feats and much, much, much better chakra to spend for his jutsu, powerful new Raiton jutsu (Raiden, Raikiri infused weapons) hype as one of the main players of the war and so on.


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## Rocky (Jul 12, 2015)

>Jiraiya never fought all six

Jiraiya did fight all six paths, after losing his arm nonetheless. Kakashi presumably knew this because of Fukasaku, _who was there_. Kakashi thought this was amazing.

This is canon. People should stop trying to come up with excuses.


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## Turrin (Jul 12, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> He didn't.


Yes he did:



And the rest of this once again misses my point, and I also don't take you seriously when it comes to Kakashi, due to bias. So yeah I won't bother beyond this.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 13, 2015)

You can't deny Jiraiya's feat, even with one arm he fought the Paths for a considerable amount of time, but there's no way he could have won 6 vs. 1, without adequate knowledge and support (from the toads). The greatest problem he faced was not knowing what he was up against, which really accosted him. Kakashi, with full knowledge of each of the Paths would have ended the match quicker as well. He much like Jiraiya was also fighting an uphill battle due to lack of knowledge. 

But even so, I thought there was a considerable amount of PIS involving Deva Path, even after figuring out Deva's ability, all it would have taken was a feint to take him out of position, the fact that this didn't happen was probably because Kishi wanted Naruto to be the one to nix Deva and the other paths.


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## Mercurial (Jul 13, 2015)

Rocky said:


> >Jiraiya never fought all six
> 
> Jiraiya did fight all six paths, after losing his arm nonetheless. Kakashi presumably knew this because of Fukasaku, _who was there_. Kakashi thought this was amazing.
> 
> This is canon. People should stop trying to come up with excuses.



He never fought in the sense that it was something so great. Since he totally lost. Kakashi imagined that Jiraiya fought Deva + Asura + the others but Deva wasn't even serious as he never used his power, that Fukasaku never witnessed, not once, hence Kakashi had to completely discover by himself. As someone said, probably Fukasaku used Dust Cloud while Jiraiya took out Animal Path with the Gourd Prison. Jiraiya with SM and at full power plainly admitted that he was outclassed (to the point that he would have been killed if he didn't stop to fight them head on) by only Animal, Preta and Human Path. Deva (that uses his gravitational powers) is much stronger than that. Kakashi fought him with Nagato feeling the need to send Asura (second strongest body) to support Deva, while Nagato felt the need to fight Jiraiya with weaker Paths. Without using his trump card for basically all the fight Kakashi managed to discover Pain's powers, trick them and corner them not once but twice (with a help that helped him as much as hindered him), that with a stronger Pain that the one who Jiraiya, using his trump card, admitted his inferiority head on.



Turrin said:


> Yes he did
> 
> And the rest of this once again misses my point, and I also don't take you seriously when it comes to Kakashi, due to bias. So yeah I won't bother beyond this.





You didn't get that at all, I've already explained. Jiraiya with his trump card admitted inferiority to a Pain far weaker than full power Six Paths and far weaker than the one Kakashi fought and so on and so on.

I only reported canon feats and canon statements, not my opinions, if yoy don't like them that's fair but not call me biased for butthurt.


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## Duhul10 (Jul 13, 2015)

what do you mean with he totally lost? Yes, he lost the match while being  handicapped, yet still managed to kill another path.   Pain Arc Kakashi would still not get over those three paths, I mean he would not even get to that point. 
        And Jiraiya made that statement before he understood that each of them have a single ability.
 So, Jiraiya believed he is fighting 3 rinnegan users, with maybe lots of tricks and jutsus, that is why he taught he needs retreat. Either way after seeing the dust cloud, kawazu naki and the DB4 clarification, Jiraiya would have shit on those three + he did not fight them with summoning jutsu.


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## Turrin (Jul 13, 2015)

Honestly Jiraiya probably took down more than just Animal-Realm off panel, but the others were revived by Naraka, because that's the only explanation for how Fukasaku knew that Naraka had the ability to revive paths.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Yes he did:
> 
> 
> 
> And the rest of this once again misses my point, and I also don't take you seriously when it comes to Kakashi, due to bias. So yeah I won't bother beyond this.



Deva realm didn't use his powers, so it is moot.

Without his powers deva realm is chuunin level.


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## Turrin (Jul 13, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Deva realm didn't use his powers, so it is moot.
> 
> Without his powers deva realm is chuunin level.



Deva Realm using his powers or not literally has nothing to do with anything. Kakashi was commenting on how difficult it was to take on multiple paths due to shared vision, and thus as amazed Jiraiya could take on 6.


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## Duhul10 (Jul 13, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Deva realm didn't use his powers, so it is moot.
> 
> Without his powers deva realm is chuunin level.


 
if it is 1 vs 1 , he is not kage level ( without the abillities of course )
but adding another pair of eyes really means something, not to say his taijutsu was not bad either.


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## ARGUS (Jul 13, 2015)

Kamui GGs on all of the sannin, yet kakashi is not above them? how does that even make sense,

as  for kakashis stamina levels, well they have definitely improved throughout the  war arc, he can use his kamui more effectively and IMO has jumped a tier higher than what he was prior to the war, 

the strongest kakashi could beat is probably MS sasuke,


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## Mercurial (Jul 13, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> the strongest kakashi could beat is probably MS sasuke,



Kakashi could own MS Sasuke even pre War. By feats he has etter base skills and he is smarter, and his Kamui proved to be far faster than Sasuke's Susanoo arrows (1)(2). With Kamui he can defeat Sasuke very quickly before Sasuke can with Susanoo and Amaterasu, Kakashi could also enter Susanoo with a clone that uses his Doton underground fast travelling while he uses Kamui on Sasuke. By portrayal, it was said a lot of times by Kakashi that he was holding back as he didn't want to kill Sasuke who was his old discipule (3)(4), (while Sasuke was itching to kill him if possible), he just wanted to talk (5), and when Kakashi changed his mind and decided to kill Sasuke (something that he could have casually done with Kamui, as it was faster than any of Sasuke's attacks and with Sasuke that has no defense to it, as no defense is possible from Kamui after all), Naruto immediately had fear for Sasuke's life and felt the need to stop his master (6)(7).



Duhul10 said:


> if it is 1 vs 1 , he is not kage level ( without the abillities of course )
> but adding another pair of eyes really means something, not to say his taijutsu was not bad either.



Deva Path is kage level even without his gravitational powers, he has great speed, reflexes and taijutsu, and the haxxed chakra rods, not to mention his endurance. He can own S-ranked/kage levels with jutsu CQC.


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## Rocky (Jul 13, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Kakashi could own MS Sasuke even pre War.



He was stumbling after one Kamui. If Sasuke didn't go blind, Kakashi was a dead man.



Raikiri19 said:


> Deva Path is kage level even without his gravitational powers.



:sanji


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## Mercurial (Jul 13, 2015)

Rocky said:


> He was stumbling after one Kamui. If Sasuke didn't go blind, Kakashi was a dead man.
> 
> 
> 
> :sanji



Yeah, and Sasuke was going blind, if Kakashi wanted to kill him he could have casually used Kamui or attacked him when he suddenly felt the after effects of straining the eye. So what?

You are conveniently forgetting that Sasuke had killing intent while Kakashi didn't have. And that Kakashi was casually talking about killing him once he decided to do that, and Naruto was really afraid he could. Kamui was proved to be faster than Susanoo arrow and it's definitely faster than Amaterasu, so if Kakashi wants to kill Sasuke he kills him before he can try to kill him, not to mention that Kakashi can feint with Kage Bunshin, Doton trickery etc and have Sasuke waste his energies without a purpose, he is much smarter than him. Sasuke has more chakra but that means nothing if Kakashi can kill him quickly, a dragged battle won't happen. 

Deva Path is not overwhelmed by Kakashi or SM Naruto's speed. He reacts to KN6 and even outruns. Manages to dodge a SM enhanced Rasenshuriken (hypersonic) point blank after a surprise clone feint who he negged in the blink of an eye. If he wounds you in taijutsu you are his bitch most of times because of the hax effect of the chakra rods that don't let you control your chakra (people like Kakashi, SM Naruto and SM Jiraiya felt that power).

Yeah tell me if these are jonin level feats. Do you think that Asuma or Yamato could to that?


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## Kai (Jul 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Honestly Jiraiya probably took down more than just Animal-Realm off panel, but the others were revived by Naraka, because that's the only explanation for how Fukasaku knew that Naraka had the ability to revive paths.


You mean other than the three they took out with Gamarinsho which returned only moments later?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Deva Realm using his powers or not literally has nothing to do with anything. Kakashi was commenting on how difficult it was to take on multiple paths due to shared vision, and thus as amazed Jiraiya could take on 6.



It has to do with the fact that Deva realms powers make up more than half of Pain's power. 

From a narrative perspective, you can take that as an admission of inferiority or an emphasis on the difficulty of the situation, but only if you ignore the context.

Kakashi was having trouble because of Deva realms powers in the first place. I am pretty sure he wouldn't be saying the same thing if he was fighting any other realm in the place of Deva.

We also know for a fact that Jiriaya is incabable of taking all 6 of them, as he almost got killed by Animal realm in his toad gourd dimension.

That fight was over the moment Jiraiya lost an arm and Pain brough the other 3 bodies.



Rocky said:


> :sanji



I lol'd.


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## Trojan (Jul 13, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> You can't deny Jiraiya's feat, even with one arm he fought the Paths for a considerable amount of time, but there's no way he could have won 6 vs. 1, without adequate knowledge and support (from the toads). The greatest problem he faced was not knowing what he was up against, which really accosted him. Kakashi, with full knowledge of each of the Paths would have ended the match quicker as well.* He much like Jiraiya was also fighting an uphill battle due to lack of knowledge. *
> 
> But even so, I thought there was a considerable amount of PIS involving Deva Path, even after figuring out Deva's ability, all it would have taken was a feint to take him out of position, the fact that this didn't happen was probably because Kishi wanted Naruto to be the one to nix Deva and the other paths.



Please. 
What lack of knowledge? His situation cannot be compared to Jiraiya
1- He DID have knowledge on them.
2- He had back up from the village.
3- Pain did not know about his abilities either as he did about Jiraiya (his teacher). 





ARGUS said:


> Kamui GGs on all of the sannin,* yet kakashi is not above them? how does that even make sense,*



Simply because things does not go with such a ridiculous way like that. It's just as the BS of saying "Amatersu GG" when it does jack-shit. 

Tho where was "Kamui GG" against Pain, or the swordsmen, or the Jinchuurikis, or JJ SM Madara...etc?  


Kakashi did have Kamui since the start of Part 2, yet he never thought that he is on the same level
as Jiraiya.


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## Vice (Jul 13, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Please.
> What lack of knowledge? His situation cannot be compared to Jiraiya
> 1- He DID have knowledge on them.



He lacked the same knowledge Jiraiya had in how the shared vision works and had to figure that one out on his own, just like Jiraiya.



> 2- He had back up from the village.



Just Choji and Choza against the strongest path.



> 3- Pain did not know about his abilities either as he did about Jiraiya (his teacher).



Kakashi is a pretty well-known ninja and Pain had plenty of sources in Akatsuki (Itachi/Deidara/Zetsu) who either had prior knowledge of him, experienced his jutsu first hand or had the opportunity to spy on him at any moment. Deva Path also had backup against Kakashi as well, by the way. 



> Simply because things does not go with such a ridiculous way like that. It's just as the BS of saying "Amatersu GG" when it does jack-shit.
> 
> Tho where was "Kamui GG" against Pain, or the swordsmen, or the Jinchuurikis, or JJ SM Madara...etc?



Because Kakashi had a whole war to fight and ddin't need to waste chakra and eyesight on people he can handle without it. 

And Kakashi DID attempt to use Kamui on the Juubi and Madara.



> Kakashi did have Kamui since the start of Part 2, yet he never thought that he is on the same level
> as Jiraiya.



You know Kakashi got better with Kamui, right? His abilities with it weren't static throughout all of part 2.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 13, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Please.
> What lack of knowledge? His situation cannot be compared to Jiraiya
> 1- He DID have knowledge on them.
> 2- He had back up from the village.
> 3- Pain did not know about his abilities either as he did about Jiraiya (his teacher).



No one knew about Asura/Deva's power and Kakashi exhausted half his chakra figuring out the two.


----------



## MS81 (Jul 13, 2015)

Ok Kakashi took on 2 out of 6 paths. 
But the war arc he tearing bijuu version 2 asses apart.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jul 13, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> No one knew about Asura/Deva's power and Kakashi exhausted half his chakra figuring out the two.



 Wtih Deva's Powers, Jiraiya wouldn't have managed to escape and pull up his barrier trap on Animal Path to begin with.


----------



## mylastduchess (Jul 13, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> He didn't. Pre War Arc Kakashi > Jiraiya by both feats (far more speed + Sharingan precognition + Raiton ninjutsu applied to CQC and to quick dashes that Jiraiya can't really survive, smarter, top notch clone feints that fooled Pain and Itachi with Raiton Kage Bunshin and Kage Bunshin, top notch Raiton > Doton: Yomi Numa, Sharingan precognition + fast handseals + Doton mastery > Doton: Yomi Numa, Doton underground fast travelling > Gamayu Endan, Suiton > Katon, Raiton > Doton, Raijuu Tsuiga that Jiraiya can't really defend from, Sharingan genjutsu that Jiraiya can't fight, Mangekyo Sharingan with long range Kamui that Jiraiya can't do anything against, Preta Path was dancing and running circles around Bunta so Kakashi will play with him since the next arc he is fending off multiple V2 Bijuu) and hype (databook calling Kakashi as Konoha's best shinobi, Pain sending weaker bodies to fight Jiraiya who was using his trump card than the ones he sent to fight Kakashi who didn't use his trump card). War Arc Kakashi pastes on Jiraiya, he is just that deadly.
> 
> War Arc 1 MS Kakashi is at the very least a tier upper his Shippuden pre War Arc incarnation: gaining perfect MS mastery with offensive and defensive long range Kamui (a dojutsu praised for his power by Rinnegan Madara), learning to teleport himself with Kamui (sign or full mastery of the jutsu: as said in the 4th databook only with perfect mastery of the eye one can use the self warping to self teleport) and to re-warp back things he warped in the Kamui dimension, better speed/CQC feats and much, much, much better chakra to spend for his jutsu, powerful new Raiton jutsu (Raiden, Raikiri infused weapons) hype as one of the main players of the war and so on. More chakra/stamina lets him fight better, relying more on Mangekyo more and being even more on the offensive, and being able to handle an eventual prolonged battle against another strong character.
> 
> ...



If Kakashi fought Animal Path he would have been dead quicker... and you keep forgetting to mention the fact that Kakashi had 2 Akamachis to help him.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jul 13, 2015)

> Just a question pertaining to Kakashi's strength. How much better did he actually get in between the Pain & War arcs?


His shunshin speed improved, he gained the ability to filter Raiton into Kunai, and his reaction speed went from Susano Arrow level to Goudama level. 

His stamina also improved in terms of recovering from Kamuis nearly instantly, create bigger variants quicker, and of course utilizing more Ninjutsu overall.

His Kamui improved to the point of allowing him to warp himself into, and out of the dimension, which allocates nigh-instant blindside opportunities as well as long-range transportation instantly. 

In short, he went from low-kage to a [high] mid-kage 

Top of Mid-kage class:
(SM Jiraiya > Itachi = Kakashi > Kisame)



> It was clear that he still had a ways to go before even reaching the Sannin (Jiraiya) when he fought Pain, but once the war ended, I've seen him tiered next to Itachi and Minato.


Jiraiya is a better match-up for Pain because of his versatility and because he has techniques that bring armies to their knees, and even though Kakashi is versatile as well- his versatility is more suited for 1 on 1 battles- which made him a suitable weapon against Obito & Juubi Madara.  



> So, did he get tiers stronger, or was it just inflation?


He got a tier stronger, in terms of low-to-mid kage.

Ranked with the likes of (Low kage) Juugo, Hidan and Konan- and upgrading to the likes of (Mid kage) Jiraiya, Itachi & Kisame is, in my mind, a great improvement.

However, comparing the Sannin, Itachi or Kakashi to Minato is a comical notion. Base Minato is right below Nagato at the tippy top of the High-kage tier, which is right below low-god tier (guys like VotE Madara, Gai, Pre-Rikudo Naruto, Hashirama).


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 14, 2015)

mylastduchess said:


> If Kakashi fought Animal Path he would have been dead quicker... and you keep forgetting to mention the fact that Kakashi had 2 Akamachis to help him.


Animal Path was one of the weaker paths, the summons are a non-issue for Kakashi and all he need to do is deceive them. The moment the summoner is killed the match is over and Kakashi would have done it without the help of Chouza/Chouji.


----------



## Bonly (Jul 14, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Animal Path was one of the weaker paths, the summons are a non-issue for Kakashi and all he need to do is deceive them. The moment the summoner is killed the match is over and Kakashi would have done it without the help of Chouza/Chouji.



How would Kakashi at the time stop the multiplying dog by himself(let alone the other summonings) when Animal path can stay out of range and/or out of sight?


----------



## Turrin (Jul 14, 2015)

Kai said:


> You mean other than the three they took out with Gamarinsho which returned only moments later?


Which they didn't see revived, so how would they know how it was done?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> It has to do with the fact that Deva realms powers make up more than half of Pain's power.
> 
> From a narrative perspective, you can take that as an admission of inferiority or an emphasis on the difficulty of the situation, but only if you ignore the context.
> 
> ...


Your arguing against Facts. Kakashi cites Shared vision as the reason, not Deva Path's ability. Jiraiya did fight against all 6. 

And no Deva is not equal to half of Pain's power.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 14, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Your arguing against Facts. Kakashi cites Shared vision as the reason, not Deva Path's ability. Jiraiya did fight against all 6.



Here is a fact for you.
Kakuzu fought Shodai.



> And no Deva is not equal to half of Pain's power.



Thats why I said more.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Here is a fact for you.
> Kakuzu fought Shodai.


And Irrelevant one.



> Thats why I said more.


Yeah and your rating of Deva Realm is incorrect. Deva Realm is one of the strongest paths 1v1, like Ashura, Human, and Animal Realm, but honestly the most important paths to the collective power of Pain are HG-Realm and Naraka-Realm. Than Human, Animal, Ashura, and Deva will have varying effectiveness depending on the enemy.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 14, 2015)

Turrin said:


> And Irrelevant one.


Perfectly relevant, because it is the same thing.

Jiriaya "fighting" 6 paths under unknown circumstances doesn't amount to anything, unless you completely ignore the context.

Kakashi's experience of fighting Pain is based on the 2 stongest bodies.
Each path have a different power.

There is no fucking way you can equate fighting Deva and Asura to fighting Hell realm and Human realm.



> Yeah and your rating of Deva Realm is incorrect. Deva Realm is one of the strongest paths 1v1, like Ashura, Human, and Animal Realm, but honestly the most important paths to the collective power of Pain are HG-Realm and Naraka-Realm. Than Human, Animal, Ashura, and Deva will have varying effectiveness depending on the enemy.



Wanna make a poll ? 

Seriously man,  you are being unreasonably stubborn.

Deva's power is Pain's strongest power, hardest to figure out or fight around, that is fact. The moment Deva regained his powers, Naruto got shat on, while he was dealing with 5 of them without too much difficulty beforehand.

CST and CT are the only 2 techniques that put him above other kage levels, and guess which realms powers are those.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 14, 2015)

CT required Deva Path to go near Nagato as near as possible. It is not always available in fights, and CST required
to shut all the other paths down.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Perfectly relevant, because it is the same thing.
> 
> Jiriaya "fighting" 6 paths under unknown circumstances doesn't amount to anything, unless you completely ignore the context.
> 
> ...


copy - Your arguing against Facts. Kakashi cites Shared vision as the reason, not Deva Path's ability. - paste



> Wanna make a poll ?


No because you will twist the subject of the poll into making it about a 1v1 Fight, which is not what i'm saying.



> Deva's power is Pain's strongest power


Naraka is Pain's strongest Power. Literally Pain is unbeatable so long as Naraka is in play and that's why Pain's formation centers around defending Naraka, as Naraka is the most valuable Path. After Naraka it's HG Realm, because he shuts down Ninjutsu completely, which is the main style most Ninja fight with. 



> hardest to figure out or fight around, that is fact.


On an individual basis, yes. When talking about the collective power of Pain, no he isn't.



> The moment Deva regained his powers, Naruto got shat on, while he was dealing with 5 of them without too much difficulty beforehand.


No the moment Naruto reverted Base he got shat on. Naruto reverted to Base because of the efforts of Naraka, Deva, and HG Realms. Naraka reviving HG, Deva using BT,  and HG absorbing Naruto' Sennin Modo. 



> CST and CT are the only 2 techniques that put him above other kage levels, and guess which realms powers are those.


Irrelevant, because we talking about when all 6 paths are out, not when Nagato is focusing all his might on a single path. Of course a Focused Deva is the strongest. 

And no CST/CT/GM are not the only reasons Pain is above other Kages, he's above other Kages because his abilities are exceedingly hard to deal with w/o extremely detailed knowledge and at the heart of that is Shared Vision, Naraka, and HG Realms


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 14, 2015)

Turrin said:


> copy - Your arguing against Facts. Kakashi cites Shared vision as the reason, not Deva Path's ability. - paste
> 
> 
> No because you will twist the subject of the poll into making it about a 1v1 Fight, which is not what i'm saying.
> ...



Naah, I'll make a thread with a poll mate. I can't debate with someone who doesn't think Deva's powers are Pain's strongest weapon/asset. Thats basically ignoring the manga.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Naah, I'll make a thread with a poll mate. I can't debate with someone who doesn't think Deva's powers are Pain's strongest weapon/asset. Thats basically ignoring the manga.


I can't wait to see how ridiculous unrepresentative of what I was saying this poll is.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 14, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> So let me get this straight
> 
> 1) 100% SM Jiraiya admits that three passively acting Paths would kill him if he doesn't come up with the plan



He said that without knowing that what they had already displayed was all they could do, too.

The _"this is going from bad to worse"_ part is important, as is Jiraiya's _"yes!"_ moment _before noting that they each had one unique ability and only that ability_.

He wasn't losing against them as it was. I mean up to that point Pain was the only one to have taken any sort of damage (Human Pain's eyes); Jiraiya hadn't even been touched. But remember how he thought it was strange that Animal had only been using summonings because the Rinnegan should have enabled him to use many other techniques? Same thing was being considered there.

He _wasn't_ saying that the powers already shown by themselves would have led to his death, he didn't think that was all Pain was capable of at that moment. What he _was_ saying was that if what'd happened so far was an indication that things would have continued to get worse (i.e.- the paths continuing to pull out new skills like they had been because y'know...Rinnegan and all), he would have eventually been killed even if he was in Sage Mode.

_That_ was the reason his plan was considered a gamble- if what they had already shown was all they could (and thus would) do it'd work just fine, and if not, well...there could be a problem.

Things _did_ keep getting even worse, but it turned out that that was only _because of the other three Pains jumping in_ as opposed to the initial three whipping out even more skills themselves.



> 2) Just one Path without using his ability managed to stab one-armed Jiraiya while being inside J-Man's jutsu



I don't see what one out of six paths managing to injure Jiraiya at some point over the course of fighting all six, and dying, has to do with anything.



> 3) Fukusaku had no knowledge on Deva Path



How do you figure this again?



> 4) Pain wanted Jiraiya dead. Badly. Bansho Tennin into Asura/Human is like no-brainer.



Trying to Banshō Ten'in a man who can make Rasengans larger than his body without having to either first form clones or make handseals (among other things) into either of those paths would be very stupid of Nagato.



> You really want to argue that crippled Jiraiya fought against a unit superior to one 100% Jiraiya himself admits would kill him? That crippled Jiraiya countered Deva Path without prior knowledge?



White Zetsu said that Pain took a long time and Black Zetsu said it was because he was fighting Jiraiya, Obito commented on how Pain had his hands full/was delayed and attributed it to Jiraiya living up to his reputation, and Nagato himself admitted that he probably couldn't have won without that secret of his. Jiraiya saying he "finally" caught one of the Pains implies they had been at it for a while, too. None of that would make sense if Jiraiya couldn't even stand up to the six paths for some time without getting stomped and killed.

So yes, I'm going to argue that.

As for the second question...it depends on what you mean by "countered", because Deva used quite a few STs on Kakashi and the gang before anyone actually died, and without any of them actually defeating the ability, so...not having prior knowledge on Deva's ability doesn't mean he somehow wasn't involved in the fight despite rushing Jiraiya on panel.



> Don't you think something like - Shima throws up Dust Cloud, Asura shoots some rockets, Fukusaku summons Gourd Toad, Animal Path rushes and gets wrecked after stabbing Jiraiya would make more sense?



No.

We see the six paths charge Jiraiya _from_ the structures that we see destroyed later on. If the dust cloud ever went up, something happened before it. Probably quite a bit of something since somehow Jiraiya's face is scrapped up, his headband is missing, and his giant scroll is absent unlike before.

Again, if all that happened was a quick escape during which Animal was caught it's odd that Jiraiya would say he "_finally_ caught one" after Animal ran into Gama Hyōrō, because using the word "finally" implies they had been at it for a good while.

We get Kakashi talking about Jiraiya fighting all six likely _because Fukasaku's account involved him fighting all six_.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 14, 2015)

@FlamingRain

Fukasaku and Shima provided Konoha the information they had on each and every single path.
But Konoha had no idea about Deva's powers. Kakashi, Chouji and Chouza risked their lives for that information.
Kakashi actually had to die for it.
spread
It would make no sense for them to die for an information Konoha already had.
And how do I know Fukasaku shared information with Konoha  ? 

Here : 
spread

"the one gramps said could revive the others."

They had information about Pain's revival technique.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 14, 2015)

I really doubt Kishi changing this:


To this:


Was suppose to convey to readers hey barely anything happened off panel.


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 14, 2015)

It seems entirely possible to me that even if Tendo had used his powers against Jiraiya they (Jiraiya or the toads) might not have picked up on it. Imagine fighting Pain and in the all the commotion trying to analyze the others Path's abilities including Tendo's when he can basically use his ability without any kind of discernible action or motion *[1] [2]*. In fact, Nagato may have made it a point to only use Tedno's powers in a support role so as to better conceal it from being figured out.

For instance, just look at the second panel Turrin posted. That one pillar to the right looks like it may have collapsed as a result of being "ripped off" (via Tendo's power) more so than a result of destruction stemming from Shurado's missiles or some shit.

This explanation also fits nicely when you consider that Kishi wanted to hype Jiraiya as having fought all Six, in some capacity, while at the same time continuing to keep Tendo's--the main Path's--ability a secret to be discovered later.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 14, 2015)

Bonly said:


> How would Kakashi at the time stop the multiplying dog by himself(let alone the other summonings) when Animal path can stay out of range and/or out of sight?


Clone feints, elemental ninjutsu and etc. His fighting style is predicated on enemy offense, I don't see how Animal Path alone can make a difference. Animal Path attacks, Kakashi clone feints and follows up with one of his Raikiri.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 14, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Naraka is Pain's strongest Power. Literally Pain is unbeatable so long as Naraka is in play and that's why Pain's formation centers around defending Naraka, as Naraka is the most valuable Path. After Naraka it's HG Realm, because he shuts down Ninjutsu completely, which is the main style most Ninja fight with.


I disagree with this statement, Deva Path is essentially the strongest Path of Pain. All the others lack the raw power he brings to the table.


----------



## Bonly (Jul 15, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Clone feints, elemental ninjutsu and etc



Not a single one of those things can stop the multiplying dog though which means you failed to answer my question.



> His fighting style is predicated on enemy offense, I don't see how Animal Path alone can make a difference.



Animal path has a summon(the dog) that Kakashi can't put down and will have to constantly worry about. Animal path has a bird that can fly thus keeping her out of the majority of Kakashi's range attacks. Animal has a Chameleon that can turn invisible which managed to catch KCM Naruto off guard meaning if Kakashi wants to track it then he's gonna have to deal with some summons which isn't gonna be an easy task for him. Most(if not all) of animal paths summonings have the Rinnegan meaning more shared vision which makes it easier to evade Kakashi attacks. ect. I think you're underrating Animal path just little a bit.



> Animal Path attacks, Kakashi clone feints and follows up with one of his Raikiri.



Come on cuz really? You think it's that simple for Pain arc Kakashi? You're better then this.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 15, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> I disagree with this statement, Deva Path is essentially the strongest Path of Pain. All the others lack the raw power he brings to the table.



Its not all about raw-power. The support ability of Naraka adds more to the collective than the raw power of Deva.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jul 15, 2015)

Well, Naraka Path is essentially useless without the raw power of the other Paths and Naraka Path hardly ever pressured SM Naruto as much as Deva Path did from what was shown.


----------



## Bonly (Jul 15, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Well, Naraka Path is *essentially useless without the raw power of the other Paths* and Naraka Path hardly ever pressured SM Naruto as much as Deva Path did from what was shown.



Turrin is talking about them as a collective so mentioning the bold is irrelevant since as a collective Naraka has the raw power of the other paths.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 15, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Well, Naraka Path is essentially useless without the raw power of the other Paths and Naraka Path hardly ever pressured SM Naruto as much as Deva Path did from what was shown.


Again we are talking about which path is most useful when the paths are fighting as a collective. Naraka is the most useful since he can revive the other paths. And yes Naraka contributed heavily to SM-Naruto's downfall by reviving HG Realm and to SM-Jiriaya's downfall by reviving the other paths.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 15, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Its not all about raw-power. The support ability of Naraka adds more to the collective than the raw power of Deva.


The difference is Naraka Path got taken down by Konohamaru while it took 6+ Tailed Naruto to fight Deva Path alone.

You claimed Naraka was the strongest, which is incorrect, he is by definition the weakest since even Nagato opted use a powerless Deva Pain over using Naraka. 

Is he the best support member? Yes. Not the strongest from the bunch.


			
				Bonly said:
			
		

> Not a single one of those things can stop the multiplying dog though which means you failed to answer my question.
> 
> Animal path has a summon(the dog) that Kakashi can't put down and will  have to constantly worry about. Animal path has a bird that can fly thus  keeping her out of the majority of Kakashi's range attacks. A*nimal has a  Chameleon *that can turn invisible which managed to catch KCM Naruto off  guard meaning if Kakashi wants to track it then he's gonna have to deal  with some summons which isn't gonna be an easy task for him. Most(if  not all) of animal paths summonings have the Rinnegan meaning more  shared vision which makes it easier to evade Kakashi attacks. ect. I  think you're underrating Animal path just little a bit.


It creates the opening to take down the summoner, that's all he needs as all Kakashi would need to do is go underground attack Animal Path after a RKB feint.

*Kakashi has the sharingan*, he would see through the chameleon since the sharingan reveals chakra. He's fast enough to avoid any of the other summons.


----------



## Bonly (Jul 15, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> It creates the opening to take down the summoner, that's all he needs as all Kakashi would need to do is go underground attack Animal Path after a RKB feint.



Animal path can get on a flying bird. Welp there's go the whole underground attack thing.



> *Kakashi has the sharingan*, he would see through the chameleon since the sharingan reveals chakra. He's fast enough to avoid any of the other summons.



Itachi has the Sharingan, he didn't see the chameleon coming up on Naruto. Unless you think Itachi was being a dick, saw it and just didn't say anything which I don't think he would do at the time(maybe while alive but not Edo).


----------



## Turrin (Jul 15, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> The difference is Naraka Path got taken down by Konohamaru while it took 6+ Tailed Naruto to fight Deva Path alone.
> 
> You claimed Naraka was the strongest, which is incorrect, he is by definition the weakest since even Nagato opted use a powerless Deva Pain over using Naraka.
> 
> Is he the best support member? Yes. Not the strongest from the bunch.


That's not what I claimed, like at all. I claimed he adds the most to the collective power of Pain Rikudo. He does that through his support capabilities, not his individual 1v1 combat potential.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 15, 2015)

Turrin said:


> That's not what I claimed, like at all. I claimed he adds the most to the collective power of Pain Rikudo. He does that through his support capabilities, not his individual 1v1 combat potential.


Which I don't disagree with, he's the best support member.


			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Naraka is Pain's strongest Power.


I'm sorry but I cannot agree to that. I don't find his power to be the strongest.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 15, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Animal path can get on a flying bird. Welp there's go the whole underground attack thing.


Did he take flight against Konoha or while fighting Naruto?



Bonly said:


> Itachi has the Sharingan, he didn't see the chameleon coming up on Naruto. Unless you think Itachi was being a dick, saw it and just didn't say anything which I don't think he would do at the time(maybe while alive but not Edo).



Priorities Bonly, priorities, he would rather save Naruto and Bee.


----------



## Bonly (Jul 15, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Did he take flight against Konoha or while fighting Naruto?



Did Kakashi start off a fight with a feint followed by Raikiri right off the bat against any paths or any fight period? This is a fun game



> Priorities Bonly, priorities, he would rather save Naruto and Bee.



What did he have to save them from? In case you forgot the chameleon came up on Naruto when Itachi was talking to them meaning they didn't need to be saved at that point at time. Itachi still didn't say anything about it when he was looking in the general directions of where the chameleon came from.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 15, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Did Kakashi start off a fight with a feint followed by Raikiri right off the bat against any paths or any fight period? This is a fun game


Kakashi's started off matches with clone feints more times than Animal Path jumping on a summon.



Bonly said:


> What did he have to save them from? In case you forgot the chameleon came up on Naruto when Itachi was talking to them meaning they didn't need to be saved at that point at time. Itachi still didn't say anything about it when he was looking in the general directions of where the chameleon came from.


It wasn't there when Itachi was talking Naruto, it had to go pick up Nagato first and that happened when Kabuto exerted full control over Nagato. So it wasn't there until after Nagato was picked up.

If you notice that Killer Bee was still blown back but Itachi was not involved that. He therefore reacted to it, which is something Kakashi would be able to replicate.


----------



## Bonly (Jul 16, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Kakashi's started off matches with clone feints more times than Animal Path jumping on a summon.



And how many of those times did he used Raikiri right after he started with a clone first?




> It wasn't there when Itachi was talking Naruto, it had to go pick up Nagato first and that happened when Kabuto exerted full control over Nagato. So it wasn't there until after Nagato was picked up.



Two pages ago Itachi was talking. As you can see Itachi is facing towards Naruto. Nagato came from behind Naruto with the chameleon. Itachi still had his Sharingan on. That means that the chameleon(which would be a big mass of chakra to Itachi) went and picked up Nagato, walked towards Naruto in the direction he was looking at and then popped up to attack. And you're suggesting Itachi saw all of this and just said "Fuck it, I'm an edo so I'll be fine. Imma let everyone get hit by this attack so I can look badass, YOLO!!! Wait I came back via Edo Tensei I guess that means it's YOLT(you only live twice) for me!!!!"?



> If you notice that Killer Bee was still blown back but Itachi was not involved that. He therefore reacted to it, which is something Kakashi would be able to replicate.



Itachi was right next to Killer B. Naruto was hit by ST but he wasn't next to Killer B when Nagato went to attack him. So trying to use Itachi not popping up on panel doesn't mean that Itachi wasn't hit by that ST as by that logic Naruto didn't get hit as well so you can't really say that Itachi wasn't involved in that, unless you have a hidden scan showing Itachi getting out of dodge and what not upon which I happened to missed.


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## Turrin (Jul 16, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Which I don't disagree with, he's the best support member.
> 
> I'm sorry but I cannot agree to that. I don't find his power to be the strongest.


Why not? If he's the most valuable member for his support capabilities, his power is the strongest, when it comes to making up Pain's collective power.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 16, 2015)

Ninja as fast/reflexive as Kakashi can outmaneuver big summons with _zero_ trouble and go straight for the summoner. Even slow-ass part one Tsunade made a joke of fast-ass Manda.

Itachi blinded three summons with kunai in between panels while flickering in Nagato's face, for instance.

Similarly, Kakashi can easily hide from summons himself if Animal tries for attrition. There is no scenario where Animal kills Kakashi without summoning additional Pain bodies.​


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 16, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Why not? If he's the most valuable member for his support capabilities, his power is the strongest, when it comes to making up Pain's collective power.


Yeah, it makes Pain stronger as a team, but it's not the strongest aspect of the team. If he gets taken out, Pain can still win with Deva Path, which is what happened in Naruto vs. Pain, even after Hell Path was taken out, Nagato was able to continue with Deva. If it had been vice-versa, the match would have been over since Hell Path wouldn't put up as much of a fight as Deva.


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