# How Strong is Gai Sensei in Base?



## ChaddyMan1 (Oct 11, 2014)

Not only that, who is the strongest opponent you feel he can kill? 

If you think he can take a Uchiha, assume he's right about the whole looking at the feet thing.


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## Trojan (Oct 11, 2014)

Jonin level. @>@

in my opinion Gai with 7gates is weaker than the kages like A, Tsunade, Gaara..etc
So without them, he's further below that. I guess around Darui's level, or the other guy from Iwa..etc.


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## IchLiebe (Oct 11, 2014)

His whole thing is working so hard at taijutsu that no ninja can beat him. When you look at 8th gate, he's pretty much achieved that. In Base though, it'd be hard because of so many powerups. I would say Hebi Sasuke gets trashed, Darui gets beat. He can hirudora in base so that pretty much blows people the fuck away. It's hard to put where he is exactly.


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## Thunder (Oct 11, 2014)

He's elite jōnin level in base. Gai doesn't approach the kage tier until he utilizes gates.


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## Mercurial (Oct 11, 2014)

Thunder said:


> He's elite jōnin level in base. Gai doesn't approach the kage tier until he utilizes gates.



# Best taijutsu master in the Narutoverse
# Speed + reflexes enough to intercept a fight between Obito and KCM Naruto, saving Naruto at the last moment and being able to fend off Obito's CQC Kamui with only his taijutsu skill, when most of people (most of kage/S-rank level people) would be foddered and warped with ease
# Top tier reactions (Gates enhance speed and strength, not reflexes that need to be good already, hence also Lee's envy for Sasuke's Sharingan helping him using high speed at best)
# Strength that easily crashes giant boulders + best taijutsu skills than everyone else + very high level speed
# Doesn't approach the kage tier until he utilizes Gates


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## Thunder (Oct 11, 2014)

Yup, that's my opinion and listing feats I'm already aware of isn't going to change that. 

If you believe Gai is comparable to established kage levels without gates based on those showings more power to ya.


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## RBL (Oct 11, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Jonin level. @>@
> 
> in my opinion Gai with *7gates is weaker than the kages like A, Tsunade, Gaara..etc*
> So without them, he's further below that. I guess around Darui's level, or the other guy from Iwa..etc.



bro these dudes are fodder in front of a seven gated gai.


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## ATastyMuffin (Oct 11, 2014)

Hussain said:


> in my opinion Gai with 7gates is weaker than the kages like A, Tsunade, Gaara..etc
> mm



lol

Seven-Gated Guy was fast enough to push back Ten-Tails Jinchuriki *Madara* with a continuous barrage of hits. This means either two things: either Madara was being pressured enough that he didn't have time to throw a counter-attack (which makes Guy's attack and movement speed *ridiculously* above Sage Minato's) or Madara's own attacks weren't fast enough to touch Guy (which makes Guy's attack and movement speed *ridiculousl*y above Sage Minato's)

Either way, in that mode Guy _would blitz the living fuck_ out of Tsunade and Gaara and reduce them to a pile of smoldering ashes with an enhanced Morning Peacock vaporizing their bodies. If he can dodge Madara's attacks, you can _sure as hell_ bet Ay won't be landing any. Guy pounds the Raikage into the ground until he dies - and I imagine such wouldn't take too long, either.


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## Trojan (Oct 11, 2014)

Madara was going back for plot purposes as if he attacked Guy we wouldn't have seen the 8th gate. lol
as for his speed, even in the 8th Gate he barely moved an inch compare to BASE Minato who used his FTG twice. lol


and it's not about blitzing them. Even if he attacked Tsunade, so what? She will heal herself. The same with Gaara who's going to use the sand to protect himself as he did with Lee, even though he couldn't dodge any attack, but he was fine afterword because of the sand protection.  

as for punching A, it does not matter, just like with Kisame, he will survive. Lol 
and I would also think that A's body. especially with the lightning armour is much stronger actually. 



Brandon Lee said:


> bro these dudes are fodder in front of a seven gated gai.



Don't see that. U_U
imo 7th Gate Gai is Kisame's level.


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## RedChidori (Oct 11, 2014)

In short Gai is ultimate Jonin level .


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## FlamingRain (Oct 12, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Seven-Gated Guy was fast enough to push back Ten-Tails Jinchuriki *Madara* with a continuous barrage of hits.



No he wasn't.

Madara simply had no incentive to immediately stop Gai at the outset because the Taijutsu he was expecting was inconsequential (hence his red steam comment), unlike Obito escaping to box land while he was injured by a Rasengan imbued with natural energy, which was an issue he didn't want to have to deal with. If he actually aimed to stop Gai at the beginning, however, he could have; we can tell that Gai was never striking so fast as to render any attempt to do such useless because Madara popped a point-blank Hirudora, and that technique is Gai throwing his _*fastest*_ punch.

If the fastest punch isn't going too fast then none of the others were.



> Reduce them to a pile of smoldering ashes with an enhanced Morning Peacock vaporizing their bodies.



Based on what can Asakujaku vaporize either of them?

Asakujaku is weaker than Hirudora which didn't even crush Kisame, instead leaving him intact, just like the Shōten clone was left intact.

Evaporating those water sharks doesn't justify it either because a large part of Asakujaku's ability to do that was it being the same breadth as the wave. Madara's Katons possess such an intense heat that they can vaporize equally-sized volumes of water as well, as was showcased by the alliance's collaborated Suiton being turned into mist once it collided with Madara's flames. And in spite of this Tsunade's arms weren't exactly reduced to ashes when she batted away five of Madara's flame dragons.

Tsunade is not a body of water; she is too durable for him to vaporize, and since she isn't going to turn into a pile of ashes she's just going to regenerate right back to her unscathed state.

Gaara should be too durable to vaporize, too considering his sand armor. (Though without a recovery ability he'd be crippled by it even remaining intact, I guess, and essentially be beaten as a result.)



> If he can dodge Madara's attacks.



That never happened.


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## trance (Oct 12, 2014)

Gai with no gates is probably a very low Kage level ninja. He's mightily impressive even as even Obito praised his raw power while in base and has reactions quick enough to escape a point-blank Kamui from Obito. With the sixth and seventh gate, he reaches mid and high Kage level, respectively and with the eighth gate, he obviously ascends far higher.


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## Jad (Oct 12, 2014)

Morning Peacock destroyed Kisame, shouten or not, they were exact duplicates, right down to Itachi's Sharingan, a Kekkei Genkai, something you can't merely copy. Even Kakashi mentioned that. The jutsu that was used was a Nagato Rinnegan related technique. This is further substantiated that the Databook and the Manga both say Morning Peacock is a certain-kill Taijutsu maneuver. This is again backed up with further evidence, this time by the guy [Kisame] who has witnessed the move twice, an enemy, that it '_Destroys the Target_'. By all means, this technique both in description and illustration, not taking one into account only, but all the accumulated evidence, kills people of Kisame's level for *certain*, as in the name '*certain*-kill'. Note also that Gai literally got stronger in one arc by beating his exact clone, so to say Morning Peacock  he used on Shouten is the same as he used on the tidal wave of sharks is ludicrous. That, and the fact it's massively larger in size. Hell from a reader's stand point, it is even said "The flaming certain-kill Taijutsu has *surely killed Kisame*"[1]. So by definition, the technique was by all means, meant to kill Kisame before even the Shouten revelation was revealed. With all this said and done, Hirudora is even a more bigger move, so all those descriptions and points made for Morning Peaock, are just amplified for Hirudora.

Also note, that Madara used his obviously much smaller weighted Katon's at Tsunade from a strictly unfavorable scenario, hence weakened. His soul was literally leaving his body. This is proven by the fact that Madara has shown almost every scenario he can produce massive Katons that dwarf his oppnents size to that of an ant, yet the one he used on Tsunade, were _coincidentally_ smuch smaller versions, smaller than even Hebi Sasuke's versions? Again, I reiterate, his Katons have always been massive in size, yet the one time he did use them which were significantly smaller, was between his soul and him leaving his Edo body.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 12, 2014)

Jad said:


> Morning Peacock destroyed Kisame, shouten or not, they were exact duplicates, right down to Itachi's Sharingan, a Kekkei Genkai, something you can't merely copy.



We've seen fake Rinnegans in this manga, so I don't know where you're getting the idea that Kekkei Genkai can't be copied. And if they were exact duplicates Kakashi wouldn't have noticed something was off.

Oh and no, Kisame was _not_ destroyed. Read the chapters again. He is not a pile of ashes or an unrecognizable chunk of flesh, he is still there and he is still in one piece. As such, this provides us with no reason whatsoever to believe Tsunade is going to be vaporized by the technique, and if she isn't she's just going to regenerate from it.



> By all means, this technique both in description and illustration, not taking one into account only, but all the accumulated evidence, kills people of Kisame's level for *certain*, as in the name '*certain*-kill'.



The target it destroyed _was that wall of sharks_. Kisame's words do not imply that his own body would be eradicated by the technique. The opposite has already shown to be true, because Mukade was left intact by the technique and an even stronger "certain-kill" technique in Hirudora left Kisame intact after he was hit by even that. Asakujaku cannot succeed where Hirudora failed- because according to Gai himself the former is nothing compared to the latter.



> Also note, that Madara used his obviously much smaller weighted Katon's at Tsunade from a strictly unfavorable scenario, hence weakened.



The Katon being smaller does not make it any less _hot_. We have a precedent to believe that, if anything, it was even more hot, given that Sasuke and Hiruzen's condensed dragon Katons are both noted to be especially powerful.

The fact that she got hit by the Katons with shape-manipulation added into them just makes her look even better than she would have were it just the generic and formless flames that spread out over a wide area.


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## Deadway (Oct 12, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Don't see that. U_U
> imo 7th Gate Gai is Kisame's level.




 yea, ok. Don't know if you missed it but Gai absolutely destroyed Kisame once he opened the 7th gate. 

He murders any of the kages aside from Ei in a few seconds with the 7th gate.


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2014)

Deadway said:


> yea, ok. Don't know if you missed it but Gai absolutely destroyed Kisame once he opened the 7th gate.
> 
> He murders any of the kages aside from Ei in a few seconds with the 7th gate.



Defeating an opponent does not necessarily make you out of their level, Also, in case you haven't notice, Kisame was not even using his sword. 

No, he does not. Maybe only Mei, which even her can be a problem with the mist jutsu. 
Black Zetsu fodderstomped Madara, does that make him stronger than him?


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## trance (Oct 12, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Also, in case you haven't notice, Kisame was not even using his sword.



No but Kisame _did_ use his strongest jutsu.


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2014)

Trance said:


> No but Kisame _did_ use his strongest jutsu.



It does not make much of a different. If he had his sword, he would have been able to heal himself. 
B LATERALLY destroyed the rib cage, which is obviously much bigger damage that what Gai did, and yet Kisame recovered and return to fight as if nothing happened. 

So, healing the damage from Gai's jutsu shouldn't be a problem at all.


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## trance (Oct 12, 2014)

Hussain said:


> It does not make much of a different. If he had his sword, he would have been able to heal himself.



But the portrayal is there. 





> B LATERALLY destroyed the rib cage, which is obviously much bigger damage that what Gai did, and yet Kisame recovered and return to fight as if nothing happened.



Nope. _Zetsu_ healed the damage.


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## SSMG (Oct 12, 2014)

Id say Guy Sensei is kage level. Due to his speed and reaction times being on par with kcm narutos speed and obitos kamui. He is also capable of blocking attacks with ease that cause kcm naruto pain. Tie in his boulder smashing strength and the best taijutsu in the series thats easily kage level.

Seventh gate guy can proly solo the gokage though guys. he pushed back a juubi jin madara who wasnt wasting any time in fullfiling his moon eye plan... and the gokage got solod by a much weaker verison of madara....


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 12, 2014)

Thunder said:


> He's elite jōnin level in base. Gai doesn't approach the kage tier until he utilizes gates.


An Elite Jounin cannot force Rinnegan Obito to work his ass off to lay a single finger on them, and eventually fail to.

Teenage MS Obito actually put his hand on Prime Minato while unarmed, the fastest ninja in the world, and nearly did it a second time. He grappled his body with a chain at one point. Rinnegan Obito nearly put his hand directly on KCM Naruto's forehead twice, and chest at one point, touched MS Kakashi with relative ease throughout the battle, and casually wrapped up BM Naruto's bunshin attacking arm with a Mokuton branch. 

This is Gai's 1v1 feats against Rinnegan Obito [1] [2] [3] [4], this is KCM Naruto's 1v1 feat against Rinnegan Obito [1] [2]; and his 3v1 feat against Rinnegan Obito (bunshin feint + Gai saving him from being warped) [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]. In other words, Base Gai fared better against him than KCM Naruto did with a bunshin, and he saved him from Obito. He also fared better against him than MS Kakashi, who was kneed in the face, stabbed in the leg, and sliced across the mid-section. 

MS Obito warped a _team_ of Elite Jounin (Fu and Torune) in the matter of a few seconds [1] [2] after about a minute of scuffling, while unarmed, and they had knowledge on his technique. Armed Rinnegan Obito is an entirely different challenge altogether- he doesn't have to touch you with his hand- he can warp through you then knock you the fuck out with the Gunbai [1], or tear you the fuck up [1]. All Obito had to do was kick an arm to create an opening to put his hand on an elite jounin.  

Base Gai's body was not physically touched by Rinnegan Obito or the extension gunbai , his weapons were touched by choice as the alpha piece [A1] of a diversion to force Obito to materialize [1] [2] [3] (by warping his nunchucks to give Naruto a chance at hitting him Rasengan)- that's literally the only reason why his weapons were warped- Gai would never attack an intangible man with both chucks at once unless he wanted them to be grappled. The only one that comes close to his genius with taijutsu is Killer Bee, a man that requires 8 blades to do so, is mid-kage level in base, and is in the company of Juubi Jinchuriki Rinnegan Hashirdara as the only two men to this day to successfully predict and counter Minato's Flying Thunder God technique.

Base Gai is low-kage level at least, arguably mid-kage level if we consider how well he performed against Rinnegan Obito (better than KCM Naruto + Kakashi) who was _not_ fucking around. He literally would not have been beaten by Rinnegan Obito with his nunchucks unless he utilized his katon, even his warped weapons probably would have been deflected [1].

In short, your estimation of Base Gai is asinine, *Thunder*.


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## trance (Oct 12, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Seventh gate guy can proly solo the gokage though guys.



Ok. That's taking it too far. 

Tsunade or Ei would give him hard fights by themselves, maybe even edging out a win. The _entirety_ of the Gokage handily beat him.


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## SSMG (Oct 12, 2014)

Trance said:


> Ok. That's taking it too far.
> 
> Tsunade or Ei would give him hard fights by themselves, maybe even edging out a win. The _entirety_ of the Gokage handily beat him.



Guy in base is a good fight for any of the current gokage, hed beat some and lose to some imo.... so if you factor in seventh gate(which first gate is stated to be a 10x multipler so seventh gate must be alot more) than he should be way above them power that he could beat them before they knew it was a fight.


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## Deadway (Oct 12, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Defeating an opponent does not necessarily make you out of their level, Also, in case you haven't notice, Kisame was not even using his sword.
> 
> No, he does not. Maybe only Mei, which even her can be a problem with the mist jutsu.
> Black Zetsu fodderstomped Madara, does that make him stronger than him?



You're right, he didn't just defeat him, he destroyed him. Every single time Gai opens the gates against Kisame the fights over. His sword would benefit him in no way whatsoever.

You realize Madara defeated Sage Minato, mid Kamui Kakashi and Gaara in less than a second yet was blitzed to shit by 7th Gated Gai and you're telling me the kages stand a chance? Elaborate.

And Black Zetsu back stabbed him, they never fought.


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## trance (Oct 12, 2014)

SSMG said:


> .... so if you factor in seventh gate(which first gate is stated to be a 10x multipler so seventh gate must be alot more)



The seventh gate gives a 10 times multiplier, so the seventh gate must give him more?


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## Thunder (Oct 12, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> An Elite Jounin cannot force Rinnegan Obito to work his ass off to lay a single finger on them, and eventually fail to.



An elite jōnin who dedicated himself to rigorously training the body could. After all, an elite jōnin is simply a jōnin who's a cut above the rest. I'd say that definition still applies to base Gai even if it's broad in your view.

Fact is, I can't think of a single established kage class fighter base Gai would actually _defeat_. That's why I'm hesitant to place him on that tier. Holding your own against a kage level in one exchange is not enough to warrant definitive placement on that tier, in my opinion.



> Teenage MS Obito actually put his hand on Prime Minato while unarmed, the fastest ninja in the world, and nearly did it a second time. He grappled his body with a chain at one point.


Which is why Obito could've placed his hand on Gai if it were a one-on-one bout, after sucking up Sōshūga first for good measure. 

Also, Minato wasn't really in his prime then. The man died very young. In a few more years Sage Mode and Rasengan would've been mastered, probably.



> MS Obito warped a _team_ of Elite Jounin (Fu and Torune) in the matter of three seconds, while unarmed, and they had knowledge on his technique.


Two elite jōnin who clearly specialized in ninjutsu as they hailed from the Yamanaka and Aburame clans. And Obito did lose an arm during that exchange. 



> Base Gai's body and weapons were not physically touched by Rinnegan Obito or the gunbai until he chose to.


Gai wasn't planning on losing Sōshūga  which is why shock was expressed there. He merely capitalized on a unfavorable situation with Naruto and Kakashi's help.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 12, 2014)

Elite Jonin.

He took a bunch of fodder chunin and fodder jonin in base.  He's a cut above.  When it came to Shoten Kisame, who's pretty dang good, he needed gates.  When it came to full Kisame, he needed even more gates.  Gates were needed as well just to survive against the Jinchuuriki.  It's very clear that once he starts tangoing with strong people, he has to go gates.  You can mention Obito, but he would have lost that fight 1v1, couldn't win it 3v1, and we all found out that Obito's taijutsu level is around Kakashi level when it comes down to it.   Not to mention Guy's complete lack of diversity in base.  Kages typically have multiple avenues of attack.  Base Guy's only attack is taijutsu, and his strongest version of it is a spin kick.  Yeah that's cool, but spin kick into Mei's acid and tell me how that works out for you.

At 7th gate he can start taking out some actual kages.  At 8th gate he's above the kages at the cost of his life. 

I may as well have copy pasted Thunder.


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## Mercurial (Oct 12, 2014)

Thunder said:


> An elite jōnin who dedicated himself to rigorously training the body could. After all, an elite jōnin is simply a jōnin who's a cut above the rest. I'd say that definition still applies to base Gai even if it's broad in your view.
> 
> Fact is, I can't think of a single established kage class fighter base Gai would actually _defeat_. That's why I'm hesitant to place him on that tier. Holding your own against a kage level in one exchange is not enough to warrant definitive placement on that tier, in my opinion.
> 
> ...



Rank doesn't mean anything. Effective power does. Just think: Kakashi with Sharingan/MS is a jonin, Kakashi without Sharingan will be Hokage. Jonin version of Kakashi >> Hokage version of Kakashi, hell's sake. It's just a title.  People don't become stronger just because they put an hat on their head.

He could stomp a lot, it depends to the situation. With his speed he can dodge most of attacks and run around most defenses, with his strength he can shatter, with his taijutsu and reactions he can surprise and outmanouvre the opponent.

Obito was completely fucking around.

He actually was.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> He took a bunch of fodder chunin and fodder jonin in base.  He's a cut above.  When it came to Shoten Kisame, who's pretty dang good, he needed gates.  When it came to full Kisame, he needed even more gates.  Gates were needed as well just to survive against the Jinchuuriki.  It's very clear that once he starts tangoing with strong people, he has to go gates.  You can mention Obito, but he would have lost that fight 1v1, couldn't win it 3v1, and we all found out that Obito's taijutsu level is around Kakashi level when it comes down to it.
> 
> At 7th gate he can start taking out some actual kages.  At 8th gate he's above the kages at the cost of his life.



Shoten Kisame isn't 30% Kisame. It's Kisame with 30% of his chakra. Still a pretty strong friend with his Suiton ninjutsu, and with Gates he was absolutely murked. He only needed more Gates against Kisame to destroy all the sharks and find the scroll, with Kisame that was fighting in an environment that should have favored and helped him, and Gai wasn't fighting with intent to kill but to capture (hence why he called Hiru Tora an "one shot killing move far stronger than Asa Kujaku" but didn't show any kind of surprise when he saw Kisame battered but still alive, when he was astonished when Juudara was able to survive his Evening Elephant), while Kisame was fighting to kill. 

Gates were needed to kick the jinchuriki's ass all around, and hold off the Six Tails. No small feat, I'd say.

Obito isn't "strong people". He is "fucking fucking strong people". Also Kakashi's taijutsu is one of the best of the series, so I don't understand what you're saying.

He can fight and defeat some in base. Most with Gates up to 6th. With 7th he stomps most and could possibly defeat everyone bar Hashirama. With the 8th... LoL.


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## SSMG (Oct 12, 2014)

Trance said:


> The seventh gate gives a 10 times multiplier, so the seventh gate must give him more?



I dont know how you got seventh gate being a 10x when i said first gate gives him a 10x boost...


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## iJutsu (Oct 12, 2014)

Strong enough to hurt Jiraiya with a kick at base and make him bleed.


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## ScottofFury (Oct 12, 2014)

Base is low Kage level. 6 Gates puts him high Kage level. 7 Gates above Kage level. 

7 Gates Gai kills 95% of the Narutoverse.

War arc Gai is stronger than when he fought Kisame ....


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## Kai (Oct 12, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> He literally would not have been beaten by Rinnegan Obito with his nunchucks unless he utilized his katon, even his warped weapons probably would have been deflected.


Base Gai has one impressive exchange with Obito and you're bringing out the party favors for a flawless victory? 

Gai was shown to perform like that to prove he can hold his own in an exchange with Obito. That's it. In a full out fight between Base Gai and Obito, Gai would have gotten smothered. None of the teammates who were _coordinating attacks with each other_ had the capacity to solo Obito in that fight.


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## SSMG (Oct 12, 2014)

Kai said:


> Base Gai has one impressive exchange with Obito and you're bringing out the party favors for a flawless victory?
> 
> Gai was shown to perform like that to prove he can hold his own in an exchange with Obito. That's it. In a full out fight between Base Gai and Obito, Gai would have gotten smothered. None of the teammates who were _coordinating attacks with each other_ had the capacity to solo Obito in that fight.



ITP Not getting beaten by obito= a flawfless vicrory over obito....


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 12, 2014)

> An elite jōnin who dedicated himself to rigorously training the body could. After all, an elite jōnin is simply a jōnin who's a cut above the rest. I'd say that definition still applies to base Gai even if it's broad in your view.


No, an elite Jounin is relatively common in this verse. Most of the Konoha 12 are on that level, and all of the kage bodyguard were. Like Fu and Torune, they would not be capable of avoiding warping by armed Rinnegan Obito in an exchange- but Gai was. 



> Fact is, I can't think of a single established kage class fighter base Gai would actually _defeat_. That's why I'm hesitant to place him on that tier. Holding your own against a kage level in one exchange is not enough to warrant definitive placement on that tier, in my opinion.


He was stalemating Rinnegan Obito with ease- Tsunade, Mei and arguably Onoki would fail in this regard. 



> Which is why Obito could've placed his hand on Gai if it were a one-on-one bout, after sucking up Sōshūga first for good measure.


It was a one-on-one bout for 4 panels straight dude- look back at my post. He couldn't even hit him with Gunbai- you think he can put his physical hand on him?



> Also, Minato wasn't really in his prime then. The man died very young. In a few more years Sage Mode and Rasengan would've been mastered, probably.


It was the prime of his life dude, you cannot say someone "might have become stronger". 



> Two elite jōnin who clearly specialized in ninjutsu as they hailed from the Yamanaka and Aburame clans. And Obito did lose an arm during that exchange.


What does that matter? He warped two elite Jounin with advanced knowledge on his technique in the matter of 5 seconds- and the only reason he lost his arm is because _*he*_ physically touched them. 



> Gai wasn't planning on losing Sōshūga  which is why shock was expressed there. He merely capitalized on a unfavorable situation with Naruto and Kakashi's help.


He absolutely was, the entire basis of him moving at Obito alone was to get him to definitely solidify. Did you think he was going to let Obito warp him instead of his weapons? 

You can't honestly suggest Gai would throw both of his weapons at an intangible man parallel to each other in hopes of actually hitting him? He clearly intended to have his weapons grappled and warped. 

Dude, you need to refer to my scans. You provided nothing of substance in this post that would convince anyone that he was Elite Jounin at best.



> Base Gai has one impressive exchange with Obito and you're bringing out the party favors for a flawless victory?
> 
> Gai was shown to perform like that to prove he can hold his own in an exchange with Obito. That's it. In a full out fight between Base Gai and Obito, Gai would have gotten smothered. None of the teammates who were coordinating attacks with each other had the capacity to solo Obito in that fight.


Obito couldn't touch him while armed with Gunbai. His feats against him were superior to what KCM Naruto was capable of against Obito. 

What is your intention in denying his clear cut canon feats? Do you hate Gai? Do you want him to seem useless without gates? I'm not understanding...

Surviving against armed Rinnegan Obito in close quarters immediately puts you above Elite Jounin level, no question whatsoever.

Low-kage/Mid-kage levels that wouldn't survive against Rinnegan Obito in a single CQC exchange:
Hidan
Most of V2 Jins
Sasori
Chiyo
Sakura
Tsunade
Mei
Kakuzu
4th Kazekage
Hanzo
Mifune
2nd Mizukage
Hebi Sasuke
Orochimaru
Base Jiraiya
Onoki
SM Naruto

Your logic:
Base Gai who did, is on a significantly lower power level than them. Base Gai with chucks would *kill* some of them in close quarters in a single exchange and significantly injure some of the others.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 12, 2014)

I'd say he is definitely weaker than MSless Kakashi. Still a decent jounin tho.


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## LostSelf (Oct 12, 2014)

I actually think that brief Exchange with Obito was pretty impressive if we consider that Minato and KCM Naruto had a shorter exhange with Obito and they were manhandled.

However i am seeing crazy responses here. 7th Gated Gai is not soloing the Gokage. But it isn't losing to Gaara either, It's not Kisame level.

I think Gai is Kage level in base in what he does. His CqC abilities are so good that other Kages would need to use ninjutsu to prevail. He can handle some kages if they met in CqC, therefore kages like Mei making that mistake is something she would regret forever.

He would beat almost any Kage in what he does. Including Tsunade if the fight is strictly taijutsu. Wich means no regen and no enhanced strenght. And she is renowed for her CqC skills.

Mifune is another guy he could beat, but that's depending on how the battle actually plays out.


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## Bonly (Oct 12, 2014)

I'd put Base Gai at low Kage level


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## JuicyG (Oct 12, 2014)

ChaddyMan1 said:


> Not only that, who is the strongest opponent you feel he can kill?
> 
> If you think he can take a Uchiha, assume he's right about the whole looking at the feet thing.




What is base Gai exactly ? Does people still remember that Gai wears weights and never takes them off ?

I'd give base Gai high-jounin level. Only because he lacks versatility to make him kage-level. The speed and strength he posses in gates is so absurdly good that it boost Gai's tier level to near God-like


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 12, 2014)

Imo, Base Gai is high Jonin level.

But the beauty with him was the surprise, imagine a Jonin level ninja, will suddenly wreck havoc with his 7 gates, and Gai with 8 gates is or must be above Kage level.


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## IchLiebe (Oct 12, 2014)

8th gate Gai is god tier. The Gokages together would get fodderized.


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## Tainted Sun (Oct 12, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Jonin level. @>@
> 
> in my opinion Gai with 7gates is weaker than the kages like A, Tsunade, Gaara..etc
> So without them, he's further below that. I guess around Darui's level, or the other guy from Iwa..etc.



Tsunade wasn't able to land a blow to Kabuto, who is equal to a pre-timeskip Kakashi, who is inferior to Gai.

Base Gai would beat Tsunade any day of the week.


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## Santoryu (Oct 12, 2014)

Part 1 Hiruzen and Tsunade were Kage level.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 12, 2014)

Tainted Sun said:


> Tsunade wasn't able to land a blow to Kabuto, who is equal to a pre-timeskip Kakashi, who is inferior to Gai.



Kabuto was equal to Kakashi _before_ augmenting himself with the Hyōrōgan ninja steroids, so you can imagine that he was superior to him once he popped those into his system, and the Tsunade he figured he needed that against was extremely out of shape as well as in a blind rage on top of being incredibly rusty.

So what you actually mean to say is that a severely weakened Tsunade fought a bolstered Kabuto and she hit him not one _(1)_, not two _(2)_, but count 'em _three_ _(3)_ times, which made him realize it was too much for him to handle and that he needed to resort to abusing her hemophobia to stop her. Couldn't land a blow my foot.

Then you have to _also_ consider that current Tsunade is _far_ superior to this one by virtue of having exercised herself back into shape, as evidenced by her being able to boss summon and then supply _thousands_ of clones with the Chakra to perform Shosen on the grand majority of Konoha's villagers whereas the gone rotten incarnation that amped up Kabuto fought complained about the cost of having to use a single Shosen.


Tsunade smacks base Gai into the next area code every day of the week.


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## Thunder (Oct 12, 2014)

Base Gai beats Rinnegan Obito by himself. None of the Gokage can handle him.


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## Mercurial (Oct 12, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Kabuto was equal to Kakashi _before_ augmenting himself with the Hyōrōgan ninja steroids, so you can imagine that he was superior to him once he popped those into his system, and the Tsunade he figured he needed that against was extremely out of shape as well as in a blind rage on top of being incredibly rusty.
> 
> So what you actually mean to say is that a severely weakened Tsunade fought a bolstered Kabuto and she hit him not one _(1)_, not two _(2)_, but count 'em _three_ _(3)_ times, which made him realize it was too much for him to handle and that he needed to resort to abusing her hemophobia to stop her. Couldn't land a blow my foot.
> 
> ...


Kabuto ran away instead to fight  Kakashi not once, but twice. And Kakashi has better feats in everything. A subjective phrase from people that doesn't know much about who they are talking about mean nothing in comparison.

Kabuto trolled Tsunade hard, he wasn't even fighting seriously or with killing intent. He gave his back to her, for hell's sake. Not even Madara did that with the Gokage.

Yeah. That is if she could touch him that is a god knows how many times faster and more skilled in taijutsu.


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## Santoryu (Oct 12, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Kabuto was equal to Kakashi _before_ augmenting himself with the Hyōrōgan ninja steroids, so you can imagine that he was superior to him once he popped those into his system,



Conjecture.


Orochimaru noted that they were comparable; not like he had any way of  estimating Kakashi's power anyway considered he was away from the village for a while. Same case with Jiraiya. And even then, you have no way of proving that Orochimaru didn't take into account Kabuto's entire skill-se/fighting style when making that comment. In fact, Kabuto would have to take those pills to just keep pace with Kakashi, and even then he'd get overwhelmed. Brawling isn't one of Kabuto's prominent talents, his intelligence, tricks, coupled with his healing abilities are the reasons he did so well against Tsunade.

tl'dr saying part 1 Kabuto>Part 1 Kakashi because he took pills is a poor argument.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 12, 2014)

That's exactly the point of that match.

Kabuto was High Jonin, with full knowledge, wore out Tsunade, boosted himself with steroids to exceed his maximum, and was still coming up short, having to resort to her phobia to not die.  Essentially, Tsunade at her absolute lowest, was lowered even farther, to face a Kabuto who was better than he'd ever been, with all the conditions stacked in his favor, and that _almost_ made it even.  Elite Jonin vs Low Kage isn't a simple gap to cross.  Gates can do it, but they're needed.  

That's nothing to be ashamed of.  _So what_ if Guy can handle all but a handful of the strongest shinobi in base.  He _has_ gates.  He's not being disrespected, and if he could beat the kage in base, why would he even have gates? What purpose would they serve to his character?  Doesn't it cheapen the hard work and sacrifice and hellish training Guy put himself through to work up to the 8th gate if you insist everything beyond the number Rock Lee learned in part 1 is totally superfluous?  Or that the gap between High Jonin and kage is so easily crossed that you can bridge it with a longer named spin kick, or a pair of nunchaku?

Guy worked hard to master gates, because he's not naturally good enough compete with geniuses and those exceptional people who are selected as kages with just his taijutsu and turtle jumps.  His usage of gates to push himself into territory where he shouldn't belong, and is symbolic of his sacrifice and drive to prove a point to the world - that a person with no talent can surpass anyone if they're willing to dedicate their life and sacrifice it to do it.  

When Guy fights a monster like Kisame, or a kage chosen as the best of their village, or a transformed Jinchuuriki with a demonic powerplant inside their stomach, or a genius level opponent chosen by fate to inherit all the haxx, he doesn't beat them in base with nunchucks.  He goes, "F- You!  I will give my life to rise to your level and gain your acknowledgement as a true and worthy shinobi!" So he goes gates.  He suffers bones breaks, and muscle damage, and risks crippling himself for life by betting on a kinjutsu to upset the natural order of the universe with his youth.  Sometimes, even that's not enough to win.  He even said so himself, and so did his father.  But the point is, he'll do it, because even if he fails, he'll become nourishment and inspiration for the new generation that will exceed him.  _The sacrifice itself is the important part._ Not the victory.  That's a way better and more admirable character than basechucks solo kage Guy, who's an incredibly flat and boring and stu-ish interpretation of the character.  All the which you'd want to be that last things in the world for a character based off overcoming characters who share those traits.

I seriously wonder if the fans of Guy, who want him to be the bestest in base, even think about or care what that does to his literary character, when they disrespect his opponents, make light of the title of kage, and want everyone to believe Base Guy is already kage level, when 8th gate was introduced as an endpoint for the user to surpass a kage.  A level and title only a handful of prestigious, blessed, and chosen ninja could attain.  And for what?  A victory in a debate over a fight?  Guy's one of the only ninja who carried on the arc of Hard Work overcoming Genius in this manga.  Don't compromise that for less.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 12, 2014)




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## FlamingRain (Oct 12, 2014)

Santoryu said:


> Conjecture.



No more than anything else discussed here in the BD.

Again, Orochimaru said Kabuto couldn't hope to kill him because he was as only as strong as Kakashi, _Kakashi himself_ admitted that his then-current state wasn't enough with Kabuto around, and Jiraiya reiterated it once he arrived at the battlefield.

Trying to downplay the validity of Jiraiya and Orochimaru's sentiments when they actually _line up with Kakashi's own_ is a big reach out of desperation if I've ever seen it, _especially_ considering that while Orochimaru himself may have been away from the village _Kabuto was still acting as a spy_ in Konoha _where he apparently kept tabs on the ninjas there_ and freely _shared that data with Orochimaru_.

The evidence is there and it all points in one clear direction, which, by the way, _isn't_ in the direction that all their comments were a load of crap.


You can bring up the chances that the Hyōrōgan was accounted for, but consider that _Kakashi_ was making his judgment based on their hospital interaction (Anbu taken out and Kabuto mocking him for not bringing at least ten, Kabuto's escape, etc.) _where no pills were taken_. We saw how easily roided up Kabuto dropped Shizune as well; if that was a typical state for him to be in during combat he and Orochimaru could hardly have been expected to regard Shizune as a bothersome potential problem like they did before meeting for Tsunade's response. That would have made more sense with Kabuto _not_ being enhanced, like during their first encounter.

So I don't exactly think it's likely that those pills were considered.


Now, even without those pills Kabuto can still match Part 1 Kakashi's Doton ability, the summoning dogs can be checked by his area-of-effect Nehan Shōja no Jutsu, and his Chakra Scalpels (which can be manifested on both hands simultaneously and sustained for longer than Kakashi can sustain Raikiri) are still enough to stop any normal person dead in their tracks. Even fleeting taps from Kabuto (actually even simply blocking a strike with those scalpels active) would be crippling for Kakashi while Raikiri is only going to stop Kabuto if it strikes him in his vitals thanks to Shosen and In'yu Shōmetsu.

I'm not saying Kabuto _wins_ (I don't need to), but they do really seem to be very close already. So close that add the steroids and Kabuto > Kakashi just follows naturally.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Oct 12, 2014)

Gai is not a kage level shinobi in base and scraping up a smattering of good feats is not gonna change that unless you explain how he actually takes out a full fledged kage. Seriously this is worse than darui and kimimaro being considered kage level or itachi being a taijutsu god just stop it's enough already.

Yes gai is the best at what he does which is taijutsu but that without being pumped up by gates is not enough. He needs his triumph cards(gates) to compete with people using overpowered ninjutsu and transformations because all he can do is run and fight real good without them. What he gonna when a giant ninjutsu is flying towards him? Magically get out the way, move behind his opponent and roundhouse kick them? Exchanging blows with obito with some nunchucks does not make you kage level. Just like darui surviving a exchange with kin gin does not make him on the level of a kage. My idea of what it takes to constantly operate and be a actually factor in the kage level bracket means way more than that.

It's like saying base raikage is kage level without raiton because he can withstand damage that hurt tsunade without a wound, can chop giant wood release and blitz and break peoples neck in base. But we all know he need that raiton shroud to actually mean shit. Over-analyzing and squeezing everything you can out feats ain't gonna change that. Period. 

Gai is a really good example of a strong jonin in base.


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## ueharakk (Oct 12, 2014)

well, lets see his track record.

He got to Obito from a further distance than KCM Naruto did at almost the same time, so heʻs clearly as fast as KCM Naruto and faster than the speedsters like V2 Ei.
He could block Obitoʻs war fan with just his nunchucks, the same attack that KCM Naruto could hardly block, and narutoʻs the guy who can take* attacks like these to the face* with zero damage.
Then we have Gai firing off hirudorah that blew up edo rinnegan madaraʻs V3 susanoo and did enough damage to keep madara out for an entire chapter.

So Gaiʻs basically a faster, stronger V2 Ei (probably more durable too) who can use nunchucks, and who can fire nukes.  Heʻs probably at healthy itachiʻs or painʻs level, which is just made obvious by the fact that kishi kept Gai away from konoha when pain invaded.


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## Tainted Sun (Oct 12, 2014)

on second thought, wasn't a base gai getting owned by a 30% Kisame clone?


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## SSMG (Oct 12, 2014)

Tainted Sun said:


> on second thought, wasn't a base gai getting owned by a 30% Kisame clone?



A few problems with this statememt. first is that better feats override low end feats in debates.

second is that guys character is one who constantly trains to get better and improve his current self.. so feats from earlier on in te series doeant represent current base guy regardless.. 

And thrid guy was able to disarm that 30% legendary swordsmen clone so no he didnt get owned..


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## OG Appachai (Oct 12, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> well, lets see his track record.
> 
> He got to Obito from a further distance than KCM Naruto did at almost the same time, so heʻs clearly as fast as KCM Naruto and faster than the speedsters like V2 Ei.
> He could block Obitoʻs war fan with just his nunchucks, the same attack that KCM Naruto could hardly block, and narutoʻs the guy who can take* attacks like these to the face* with zero damage.
> ...


as i was reading this i couldnt help but feel that you were being sarcastic as fuck lol


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## Alex Payne (Oct 13, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> No more than anything else discussed here in the BD.
> 
> Again, Orochimaru said Kabuto couldn't hope to kill him because he was as only as strong as Kakashi, _Kakashi himself_ admitted that his then-current state wasn't enough with Kabuto around, and Jiraiya reiterated it once he arrived at the battlefield.
> 
> ...


Kakashi after seeing Kabuto's performance in the hospital said that with _someone like him_ helping _Orochimaru_ his _current_ isn't enough. This is completely different from simply admitting inferiority. Afterwards he got back in shape(DB stats increase) with Kabuto stating he is at a disadvantage in open/normal fight when they face each other again. 

Stating that Hyorogan isn't included in Kabuto's overall level when numerous assessments were made is like stating that Sharingan isn't included in Kakashi's level either. It's a standard "equipment" for both. Not a one-time thing.

I am not arguing that Kakashi is clearly superior. I simply found that Hyorogan Kabuto > Kakashi is very silly. It's fully within Kabuto's _core_ abilities to make those pills.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 13, 2014)

Firstly, I'm not sure why you italicized "current" as if I didn't already clarify that Kakashi said his "then-current" state. Secondly, I didn't say that was Kakashi admitting inferiority, but Kabuto is only helping Orochimaru like Kakashi would be helping Konoha. The implication that they are very close is obvious either way. And all Kabuto stated was that he didn't want to get his Jutsu copied if he used his skills carelessly, not that he was actually at a disadvantage, though even with them being equal it wouldn't have been surprising considering that it was _three-on-two_ in that scenario.

And the Hyōrōgan doesn't have to be a one-time thing for it to have not been included, it just has to be atypical. There is the Shizune example I mentioned which you said nothing about, as well as the fact that we've never seen those pills used again outside of his fight with Tsunade. It isn't normal for him to use, which is completely different than Kakashi and the Sharingan _which he is famous for because that's where 99% of his Jutsu come from_.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 13, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> well, lets see his track record.
> 
> He got to Obito from a further distance than KCM Naruto did at almost the same time, so heʻs clearly as fast as KCM Naruto and faster than the speedsters like V2 Ei.
> He could block Obitoʻs war fan with just his nunchucks, the same attack that KCM Naruto could hardly block, and narutoʻs the guy who can take* attacks like these to the face* with zero damage.
> ...


I disagree with most of this but the bolded.

Yes, Gai'd tear pain a new one and is obviously stronger than SM Naruto.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 13, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> And the Hyōrōgan doesn't have to be a one-time thing for it to have not been included, it just has to be atypical. There is the Shizune example I mentioned which you said nothing about, as well as the fact that we've never seen those pills used again outside of his fight with Tsunade. *It isn't normal for him to use*, which is completely different than Kakashi and the Sharingan _which he is famous for because that's where 99% of his Jutsu come from_.


We only saw one proper fight with Kabuto. The same fight he used those pills. Everything else was short skirmishes. We know that Kabuto is extremely skilled medic who made truth-serum and anti-mokuton drug, treated Oro's arms, treated Kimimaro. So - one proper fight in which he uses those pills. History of using and creating different medications. All that yet you for some reason assume that Kabuto's usage of that pill was _atypical_... Based on what? It was his only fight. What's next? It isn't normal for Sasori to use Sandaime Kazekage puppet? Or Kakuzu to start with 5 hearts?


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## FlamingRain (Oct 13, 2014)

Alex Payne said:


> We only saw one proper fight with Kabuto. The same fight he used those pills. Everything else was short skirmishes. We know that Kabuto is extremely skilled medic who made truth-serum and anti-mokuton drug, treated Oro's arms, treated Kimimaro. So - one proper fight in which he uses those pills. History of using and creating different medications. All that yet you for some reason assume that Kabuto's usage of that pill was _atypical_... Based on what? It was his only fight. What's next? It isn't normal for Sasori to use Sandaime Kazekage puppet? Or Kakuzu to start with 5 hearts?



Popping the pills only takes a split second so it isn't like he couldn't have done it in any of those other instances. You still haven't commented on Shizune being regarded as problem by the duo (and I guess Jiraiya as well) despite how swiftly she was dropped by roided up Kabuto, and do you not think he was expecting a "proper fight" with Kn3 or Team Kakashi (whether or not he actually got one is besides the point)? Those pills are no more typical of him than antidotes or sleep bombs are for Sakura or Tsunade (who are even better than he is at medications), and I really hope you don't really think Sakura walks around with antidotes all the time because she had them in her one proper fight.

Now since you brought it up, no, _isn't_ normal for Sasori to use the Third Kazekage. He didn't leave it against Kankuro, and he wouldn't have left it against Chiyo and Sakura either were it not for the thing getting destroyed. It is his favorite puppet, after all.  Put into perspective, his hype came from taking out the Third Kazekage and being able to take down a country, not from possessing that Kazekage's abilities for himself, because nobody even knew he had the thing until they specifically fought against it for themselves. We as the audience just put two and two together to _add onto_ the hype he already had, we _don't_ attribute his hype to the Third Kazekage that the people complimenting him had not seen, and Kakuzu has never started with all five of his hearts. Ever. So I don't even know why you brought him up.


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## J★J♥ (Oct 13, 2014)

Base Guy should be stronger than Minato and A.


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## ATastyMuffin (Oct 13, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I disagree with most of this but the bolded.
> 
> Yes, Gai'd tear pain a new one and is obviously stronger than SM Naruto.



Why do you disagree? Seven-Gated Guy is *much* faster and much stronger than Ay, and on top of that, he can launch instantaneous nukes with a single double-armed punch.

Ay doesn't even begin to compare.


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## Lord Aizen (Oct 13, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> # Best taijutsu master in the Narutoverse
> # Speed + reflexes enough to intercept a fight between Obito and KCM Naruto, saving Naruto at the last moment and being able to fend off Obito's CQC Kamui with only his taijutsu skill, when most of people (most of kage/S-rank level people) would be foddered and warped with ease
> # Top tier reactions (Gates enhance speed and strength, not reflexes that need to be good already, hence also Lee's envy for Sasuke's Sharingan helping him using high speed at best)
> # Strength that easily crashes giant boulders + best taijutsu skills than everyone else + very high level speed
> # Doesn't approach the kage tier until he utilizes Gates



- No 30% Kisame beat guy in base using taijutsu and his sword
- No way is guy better than A, Madara, and hashirama or tsunade in taijutsu 
- It was his use of the nunchucks that saved him but ok
- Definitely doesn't have top tier reactions. He's not on hashiramas madara, minato, tobirama, obito or itachis level
- his base speed is average


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## Lord Aizen (Oct 13, 2014)

Base guy is elite jonin
Gated guy 1-7 is low kage - high kage
8 gate guy is god tier


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## xenos5 (Oct 13, 2014)

Lord Aizen said:


> - No 30% Kisame beat guy in base using taijutsu and his sword
> - *No way is guy better than A, Madara, and hashirama or tsunade in taijutsu*
> - It was his use of the nunchucks that saved him but ok
> - Definitely doesn't have top tier reactions. He's not on hashiramas madara, minato, tobirama, obito or itachis level
> - his base speed is average





taijutsu isn,t just strength or speed. it,s mostly martial arts technique. noone in the narutoverse can compete with Gai in that.


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## SSMG (Oct 13, 2014)

Lord Aizen said:


> - No 30% Kisame beat guy in base using taijutsu and his sword
> - No way is guy better than A, Madara, and hashirama or tsunade in taijutsu
> - It was his use of the nunchucks that saved him but ok
> - Definitely doesn't have top tier reactions. He's not on hashiramas madara, minato, tobirama, obito or itachis level
> - his base speed is average



Everything you said in this post besides that guy was beaten by 30% kisame(but it wasnt due to kisame being better in taijutsu) is factually incorrect.


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 13, 2014)

He was losing to a Base Kisame in base himself while Kisame was not using some high end moves. High Jounin likely. I can see Asuma beating him in some scenarios.


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## OG Appachai (Oct 14, 2014)

most likely low kage level, he;d beat a large portion of the verse given his feats


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## Marsala (Oct 14, 2014)

Guy relies on the Gates in all serious situations. Without them, he has superb speed and taijutsu skill above most Jounin, but he's still limited and would probably lose to Asuma and Zabuza going all-out. Remember that opening the Initial Gate boosts your speed and strength considerably, and doing so is trivial for Guy. He probably fought with at least one Gate open throughout the war.


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