# Juubi vs. the Thing (Fantastic 4)



## strongarm85 (Dec 27, 2012)

Right before the fight starts, this happens.


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## Merlight (Dec 27, 2012)

Your picture doesn't show.


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## strongarm85 (Dec 27, 2012)

It was in my cashe memory before, thats why it loaded fine for me.

How about now?


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## Merlight (Dec 27, 2012)

yeah now it does now

Edit: omg


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## SsjAzn (Dec 27, 2012)

Thing wins. He fought class 100's like Hulk everyday back in the day.


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## Lurko (Dec 27, 2012)

It's clobbering time!


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 27, 2012)

Thing grabs it and snaps its neck


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## Qinglong (Dec 27, 2012)

I like the "I'm no Hero" bit


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 27, 2012)

The Thing shouldnt soil his hands on this. After all this is a guy who fights the likes of Galactus and Dr. Doom.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 27, 2012)

Qinglong said:


> I like the "I'm no Hero" bit



Ben's ten shades of awesome lol


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 28, 2012)

Qinglong said:


> I like the "I'm no Hero" bit



Heroes tend to be among the dead.


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## Qinglong (Dec 28, 2012)

Real Heroes find their way back home Cpt. America style

An Heroes find themselves on the morning newspaper


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## Tom Servo (Dec 28, 2012)

wrong section this needs to go in the Joke Battledome


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## feebas_factor (Dec 28, 2012)

Ben is country-level now? Seriously?

Toriko beat the Thing in previous threads and Juubi has significantly more firepower than that.



strongarm85 said:


> Right before the fight starts, this happens.



Because... a nuke is going to hurt Juubi? 

He'll be miles better off trying even just trying to punch it.


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## Cygnus45 (Dec 28, 2012)

idk if ben can tank that, what's the starting distance?


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## feebas_factor (Dec 28, 2012)

Cygnus45 said:


> idk if ben can tank that, what's the starting distance?



Admittedly Thing has some pretty insane damage soak in his better showings. Up to high island-level, at least.

But to my knowledge he's never no-sold .


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## strongarm85 (Dec 28, 2012)

I'm not sure if the standard assumption on starting distance has changed, but the old assumption used to be 10 meters.


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## TehChron (Dec 28, 2012)

strongarm85 said:


> I'm not sure if the standard assumption on starting distance has changed, but the old assumption used to be 10 meters.



And then there's the issue of charging time


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## Azrael Finalstar (Dec 28, 2012)

feebas_factor said:


> Admittedly Thing has some pretty insane damage soak in his better showings. Up to high island-level, at least.
> 
> But to my knowledge he's never no-sold .



Actually i wouldn't put it past him. This is marvel actually. But on a consistent basis now...


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## DarkTorrent (Dec 28, 2012)

strongarm85 said:


> I'm not sure if the standard assumption on starting distance has changed, but the old assumption used to be 10 meters.



It's 20m now.

But assuming this is true:



Danger Doom said:


> After all this is a guy who fights the likes of Galactus and Dr. Doom.



then I don't understand how could Benn lose to Toriko.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Dec 28, 2012)

I'm pretty sure Galactus even noticing Ben would be horrible jobbing on his part. And he'd probably have to be starving to death for that to happen, as well.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 28, 2012)

Toriko would beat the Juubi so I don't understand how this a>b>c logic is working here.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 28, 2012)

Fight the likes of doesnt translate to putting up a fight . 

Pretty sure there are scans of him getting swatted aside from Galactus .  

What I cant understand is since when the Juubi turn into a country buster?


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 28, 2012)

Since he fired a blast 300+ kilometers wide.


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## Qinglong (Dec 28, 2012)

It's second Form is a country buster

Although there was an argument about the the internal Bj- I mean, BD in cancerdome.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 28, 2012)

Guess I was thinking Country would be little bit bigger but I suppose thats entering Continental territory.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 28, 2012)

Endless said:


> Toriko would beat the Juubi so I don't understand how this a>b>c logic is working here.



It isn't that's just Feeblefactor doing what he always does in these threads


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## Qinglong (Dec 28, 2012)

No need for Ad hods IWD

Juubi is a countrybuster with massively hypersonic attacks based on what we've seen in its fight so he has a valid argument for being serious

Although I found the OP pic to be very not serious for a vs. match


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 28, 2012)

Qinglong said:


> It's second Form is a country buster
> 
> Although there was an argument about the the internal Bj- I mean, BD in cncerdome.



Looks more like a county buster.


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## Qinglong (Dec 28, 2012)

The internal one as well? I thought it didn't finish charging or something. And Hachibi seems to have got hurt as well but not serious damage.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 28, 2012)

I knew I saw this thread before.


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## Cygnus45 (Dec 28, 2012)

Considering Ben's fight resume, durability, and damage soak, I don't even think a country level blast would instantly kill him. Based on feats I've see, the damage would range from his head simply being rattled to hanging on within an inch of his life. If he gets his hands on the juubi, bloodlusted, he could literally tear it in half.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 28, 2012)

Qinglong said:


> No need for Ad hods IWD
> 
> Juubi is a countrybuster with massively hypersonic attacks based on what we've seen in its fight so he has a valid argument for being serious
> 
> Although I found the OP pic to be very not serious for a vs. match



that's not Ad hod that's the truth

and he's not a country buster I mean like I wanna see him kill a few million people before I accept that..he has massive range but call me when he levels an area the size of France


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 28, 2012)

Endless said:


> Since he fired a blast 300+ kilometers wide.



So he can country bust some of the smallest countries in the world at the least huh?


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## Qinglong (Dec 28, 2012)

The minimum for accepted country busting is Chixclub crater from what I remember

edit: it was oldwiki: 



> Country Level - (4.184e+23 - 1.6736e+29 joules) Countries can come in many sizes, but since we are attempting to classify for OBD purposes, a "country buster" creates a crater 100km in diameter. This is similar to the size of the Chicxulub crater that was carved out in the KT boundary event that "killed the dinosaurs". This event released 100 Teratons of energy, and this is the baseline for our country level.



Juubi's blast was what Endless said, 300km and in country busting range. That was second form anyway. Base form's stats were like Island+ Hypersonic+.


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## Cygnus45 (Dec 28, 2012)

IWD does have a point. Many explosions are huge and flashy but the actual damage done/energy outputs/etc turns out to be lower.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 28, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> So he can country bust some of the smallest countries in the world at the least huh?



being able to bust something the size of Malta or Haiti?

Thing gets back up bloodied and hurting then kills it


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 28, 2012)

I am pretty sure Thing took a hit from Mjolnir and got right back up. Now its up to debate exactly how much Thor was holding back.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 28, 2012)

Exactly what IWD was thinking is what I was thinking when you say country busting I immediately thought, so this guy can level half of the Land of water or something. Small Country I can see.


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## Qinglong (Dec 28, 2012)

Actually which Form is this anyway

Also is this an actually serious thread


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 28, 2012)

Cygnus45 said:


> IWD does have a point. Many explosions are huge and flashy but the actual damage done/energy outputs/etc turns out to be lower.



I see a big energy spike..that rises a hundred or so miles into the sky..I see the energy wave covering a wider distance

how much that went towards destruction and how much of it didn't



Danger Doom said:


> Exactly what IWD was thinking is what I was thinking when you say country busting I immediately thought, so this guy can level half of the Land of water or something. Small Country I can see.



When I think country buster for these debates I think Napa's two finger


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## DarkTorrent (Dec 28, 2012)

Cygnus45 said:


> IWD does have a point. Many explosions are huge and flashy but the actual damage done/energy outputs/etc turns out to be lower.


A link to the calc has been given.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 28, 2012)

Cygnus45 said:


> IWD does have a point. Many explosions are huge and flashy but the actual damage done/energy outputs/etc turns out to be lower.



The crater is what should be calced, I never trust those vertical blasts that flail into the air.
 If another look of it never pops up you could try guessing the curvature of it like a bowl or something I guess since they always end up like craters that are even on all sides.
In fact I think if you put 4 pictures of that side by side and put it in 3 dimensions you could since we know how the BB curve in relation to distance and how deep they are.
Not like I know if that's even possible though I don't touch calcs.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 28, 2012)

Thing has taken blows from Namor and Hulk

the guy was not turned into jello by a liver shot from Gladiator

it is going to take a lot..to convince me this thing can get passed Bens durability..then get passed Ben's insane damage soak after getting through said durability..then going through Bens insane threshold to pain..and will power

all before an angry thing rips it apart

edit- which poster made the calc


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## Qinglong (Dec 28, 2012)

Since people missed it the calc is Flutter's blog


So now I have to ask 1. Which Form Juubi and 2. Thing's highest DC showing that's not an outlier


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 28, 2012)

Qinglong said:


> Since people missed it the calc is Flutter's blog
> 
> 
> So now I have to ask 1. Which Form Juubi and 2. Thing's highest DC showing that's not an outlier



Juubi can't get through his durability or soak before dying


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 28, 2012)

the size of it may be ~small country, but considering it was razing mountains and launching them into low orbit it's country+ in yield (in OBD country starts at 7 teratons, not 100 teratons)



after so many threads I still have no idea where Bens durability/damage soak is .. it's high obviously, but it's gotta end somewhere


movement speed is another thing, its first form blitzed a hypersonic+ from several kilometers at least, second should not be slower, though it seems to prefer standing around more


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## Saitomaru (Dec 28, 2012)

Looks like Kishi decided to do a Kubo-esque explosion...


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 28, 2012)

The Thing did hurt the Stranger .


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## Cygnus45 (Dec 28, 2012)

DarkTorrent said:


> A link to the calc has been given.



I'm more impressed with the speed. Mach 160 is no joke, esp for a purely close range fighter like Thing.

If Juubi is far away, it can spam Bijuudamas and potentially k.o Ben (but not kill). No distance was established by the OP, so something as big and mindless as the Juubi wouldn't be able to employ that strategy. With knowledge and a bigger starting distance, it definitely could take out the Thing. One blast won't be enough, however. With standard rules, Ben tanks it, spits out some blood, closes the distance, and rips it in half.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 28, 2012)

Wonder how Juubi can handle a Thunderclap .


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 28, 2012)

> Mach 160 is no joke


that's just the speed of the attack itself

but as I said





> movement speed is another thing, its first form blitzed a hypersonic+ from several kilometers at least, second should not be slower, though it seems to prefer standing around more


it should be able to cover ground quickly just from its size .. provided it chooses to do so




> mindless


it does have a mind, we just haven't seen it yet, since it's being suppressed


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## Qinglong (Dec 28, 2012)

I was debating about it having a mind on that other forum

Captain Kurama seems to compare it to a force of Nature while Trollbito thinks it has too much conciousness


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 28, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> Wonder how Juubi can handle a Thunderclap .


TC is not concentrated like a punch, it's more like an explosion, so the potency of it being a concentrated attack is reduced


Juubi can handle explosions, considering it swallowed its own bomb and survived it exploding inside


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 28, 2012)

The thing is (no pun intended well maybe), We had a Ino Hinata combo diverging a Bijuudama of course from the Juubi. What to say a TC cant knock it of course to allow Ben to get in and wrestle it down?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 28, 2012)

> The thing is (no pun intended well maybe), We had a Ino Hinata combo diverging a Bijuudama from the Juubi. What to say a TC cant knock it of course to allow Ben to get in and wrestle it down?


they mindcontrolled Tobi (not Juubi) for 2 seconds to make him change the direction, wasn't done with brute force


and the TC could, provided it was strong enough and done in time

but if it utilizes its speed it should be able to put some distance between them to continue launching those bombs .. can't say if it would do that though


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## Cygnus45 (Dec 28, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> Wonder how Juubi can handle a Thunderclap .



It was covered in magma, dried up in concrete, and squished between two small mountains. a single thunderclap would stun it but wouldn't do crippling damage.



> that's just the speed of the attack itself



I know. Against a class 80 brick like Ben, the only thing that matters is the bijuudama. The Juubi's other stats are shit and it's size won't make up for the strength difference.



> it should be able to cover ground quickly just from its size .. provided it chooses to do so



Doesn't work like that. Fodder shinobi were tagging it with basic ass jutsus. It can tag ninjas we know have hypersonic reflexes, but from what we've seen it _certainly_ doesn't move around that fast. 



> it does have a mind, we just haven't seen it yet, since it's being suppressed



Then that's irrelevant until we see what it can do when it thinks on it's own.

I repeat, it doesn't even need to be that fast against Ben, it just needs to stay the hell away and spam as many bijuudamas as possible. But it may not be smart enough to do that, bloodlusted or not. At only 20 meters apart, it can land maybe 1 or 2 bijuudamas and Ben will be able to get back up from them and squash it.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Dec 28, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> after so many threads I still have no idea where Bens durability/damage soak is .. it's high obviously, but it's gotta end somewhere



Same problem here.

Where do we draw the line on Thing's feats? At what point do they turn into outliers and low showings for characters he has no business fighting?


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## Qinglong (Dec 28, 2012)

Anything involving Galactus/Abraxas or the usual suspects is outlier imo (by usual suspects, I mean the job kings)


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 28, 2012)

Pretty sure if you see Thing have Hulk bloodied  and on the ground after any fight, type of feat its an Outlier.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 28, 2012)

> It can tag ninjas we know have hypersonic reflexes, but from what we've seen it certainly doesn't move around that fast.


the first form did move that fast at least once, though I can't say about the second one for sure .. logically it shouldn't be slower, but it's not showing it yet





> I repeat, it doesn't even need to be that fast against Ben, it just needs to stay the hell away and spam as many bijuudamas as possible. But it may not be smart enough to do that, bloodlusted or not.


agreed

how many can Ben take though I can't really say


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## Saitomaru (Dec 28, 2012)

Cygnus45 said:


> Doesn't work like that. Fodder shinobi were tagging it with basic ass jutsus. It can tag ninjas we know have hypersonic reflexes, but from what we've seen it _certainly_ doesn't move around that fast.



It wasn't even attempting to dodge said basic ass jutsus. (IIRC) It blitzed Naruto who happens to be the second(?) fastest character in the verse, that bundled with its sheer size lends credence to its speed being rather high by Narutoverse standards.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Dec 28, 2012)

Thing's profile has his DC and durability at mountain level+, but whenever there are Thing threads people claim his stats are higher than that.

So what are they accepted to be? Island level, country level, continent level, planet level, what?


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## Qinglong (Dec 28, 2012)

If it's 20m away is it going to close range BD, it doesn't seem like it would normally do that from the last chapter and Obito forced it to (also was that a full powered country blast it ate or was that a partially charged shot)

Also as for getting hit by fodder shinigami, Madara told Obito to not even bother dodging some attacks to save energy for its tranformations


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 28, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Thing's profile has his DC and durability at mountain level+, but whenever there are Thing threads people claim his stats are higher than that.
> 
> So what are they accepted to be? Island level, country level, continent level, planet level, what?


one does not simply
@
get an easy answer in the OBD


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 28, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Thing's profile has his DC and durability at mountain level+, but whenever there are Thing threads people claim his stats are higher than that.
> 
> So what are they accepted to be? Island level, country level, continent level, planet level, what?



it should be above country due to soak


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## Cygnus45 (Dec 28, 2012)

> how many can Ben take though I can't really say



Not very many but 1 isn't gonna cut it and it's not gonna be able to fire much more than that with such a short starting distance.



> It wasn't even attempting to dodge said basic ass jutsus. (IIRC) It blitzed Naruto who happens to be the second(?) fastest character in the verse, that bundled with its sheer size lends credence to its speed being rather high by Narutoverse standards.



More like it caught Naruto off-guard when he was in mid-air and committing to his attack. The bijuu suddenly breaking free of it's concrete prison and attacking was the furthest thing from his mind.

I already acknowledged it can tag hypersonic characters (as it's done with some of the other naruto top tiers), and I repeat: *It doesn't need to be uber fast to catch Thing,* so there's no need to talk about how amazing it's speed is.



> So what are they accepted to be? Island level, country level, continent level, planet level, what?



Large island--low country level at his highest showings. Continent level or higher is just plain wanking. The Thing doesn't just have high durability, he has high damage soak and a never-give-up attitude. So people kind of place him higher than he really needs to be.


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## Orochibuto (Dec 28, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> that's not Ad hod that's the truth
> 
> and he's not a country buster I mean like I wanna see him kill a few million people before I accept that..he has massive range but call me when he levels an area the size of France



Juubi was calced as far as I know to be country buster, but people forget the "low" part. He can country bust in one shot, but countries like Monaco, not countries like France and Mexico.

Although this is on oneshot terms functionally he would be able to nuke countries like USA, France, etc. since he can spam said BDs and they have such a large range.


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## FireEel (Dec 28, 2012)

I.Don't.Get.It.

I really don't.

Why do we have serious discussions of Thing vs Captain America in the past.

And now we are getting a serious discussion of Thing vs Juubi?

Can we draw a goddamn line on where Ben Grimm stands in durability and power?

Do we scale him to a bloodlusted Hulk? Do we scale him to Wolverine? Do we scale him to Sandman(who's actually legit-ly owned Thing). Do we scale him to Spiderman(if memory serves me well enough, Pete actually fought Ben). Or Doctor Doom?

I remember Thing used to be the line between street-leveler and herald-level. But that's such a ridiculously broad definition.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 28, 2012)

well Cap does have the uber hax shield  .. and possibly the reactions to fight Ben .. he'd just need to make sure those rock fists hit the shield each time


though yeah, Ben seems to vary a lot

it'd be great for him to have his own calcable durability feat


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## Hardcore (Dec 28, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> it should be above country due to soak



So Ben has country-level DC and durability?


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## Qinglong (Dec 28, 2012)

EDIT: not worth it, it's Captain America

Passed discussions like that aren't worth bringing up


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 28, 2012)

Technically the Shield absorbs all kinetic force for Capt, really he shouldnt be able to handle a class 80.


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## Qinglong (Dec 28, 2012)

Cap has a notable loss to Deathstroke in 2006 and General Grievous in 2011

I'm having a very hard time buying Thing was a serious discussion


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## Krypton (Dec 28, 2012)

HardCore said:


> So Ben has country-level DC and durability?



No he doesn't.

Thing's damage soak and durability are high, but most are plot wise.


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## Qinglong (Dec 28, 2012)

There was calc done on his Thunderclap based on it covering a long distance wasn't it

Or did that come out to high Island level

I think TF mentioned it


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## FireEel (Dec 28, 2012)

Qinglong said:


> There was calc done on his Thunderclap based on it covering a long distance wasn't it
> 
> Or did that come out to high Island level
> 
> I think TF mentioned it



I remember a feat where Ben's thunderclap went through Doom's shielding.

Unfortunately therein lies the question, is that a high-showing for Thing or a low-showing for Doom.

Doom's shields have tanked some seriously haxed shit, and to assume that Thing can easily bust out such powerful thunderclaps would raise the question of 'Why doesn't he use them more often?'

See, Ben has some amazing endurance, but he doesn't tank that well. (as far as class 100 goes)

An example is his fight with the champion, where he lasted even longer than Colossus and was able to stand through his sheer will.

By that same logic, we do not look at Whitebeard and say he has amazing durability, but rather he has amazing endurance where he can withstand very high damage but force himself to go on fighting.

By this admission I would think that Ben is on the end of 'amazing endurance' rather than 'amazing durability'.


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## feebas_factor (Dec 28, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Thing's profile has his DC and durability at mountain level+, but whenever there are Thing threads people claim his stats are higher than that.
> 
> So what are they accepted to be? Island level, country level, continent level, planet level, what?





FireEel said:


> I.Don't.Get.It.
> 
> I really don't.
> 
> ...


Whatever-he-needs-to-be-to-beat-characters-I-don't-like level. 

Hence all the dismissive one-liners instead of actual thought that initially went into this thread.


Endless said:


> Toriko would beat the Juubi so I don't understand how this a>b>c logic is working here.



Just an illustration of the inconsistency/double standards being applied here. You don't need a>b>c logic to see that any version of Ben not being absurdly wanked is getting blasted here.

Even _if_ we decide to use his highest showings here and somehow figure one country-level blast _won't_ KO him, Juubi can literally just walk backwards far faster than Ben can run and keep firing them continuously.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 28, 2012)

but it's too stupid to walk feebas


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## Eldritch Sukima (Dec 28, 2012)

Walking is too pedestrian for the Juubi. It should only travel via continuous breakdancing.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Dec 28, 2012)

Juubi can leap tens of km fast enough to slap away the (former) fastest character in the series before he can dodge, he can take his own blast, which is country level, his organs are just as durable, he can literally finger flick away a bijuu dama and blow up a small country sized area, with enough power to send huge mountains flying, which makes the blast more powerful than it would be if it simply left a crater behind.


What are ben's stats again?


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## ZergKage (Dec 28, 2012)

Taking a beating from the Hulk level durability

Punching Galactus once or twice level punching power

Made an origami that made Reed pat me on the head level of intelligence

You know, basically the strongest character on Marvel Earth.


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## feebas_factor (Dec 28, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> but it's too stupid to walk feebas


Now Flutter, you shouldn't judge people eldritchesque abominations just by their appearances. 


Eldritch Sukima said:


> Walking is too pedestrian for the Juubi. It should only travel via continuous breakdancing.


Breakdancing and guitar picks then. Juubi wins with style. 


HeavyMetalThunder said:


> What are ben's stats again?



Nothing you'll ever see agreed on consistently, that's for sure... 

Wiki says mountain+ level, but even given his huge variabilty in showings that's pretty low-end. 

Island-level+ DC and hypersonic reactions is _fairly_ consistent and is what I've seen used in most previous threads. Plus a shitload of endurance against physical attacks from much stronger characters, of course.

...I have honestly never seen Ben seriously argued to be country level in DC before this thread though.


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## FireEel (Dec 28, 2012)

feebas_factor said:


> Now Flutter, you shouldn't judge people eldritchesque abominations just by their appearances.
> 
> Breakdancing and guitar picks then. Juubi wins with style.
> 
> ...



Joker vs Freddy thread = You high or something? Freddy's not a fucking dreamlord LOL. He's gonna look into Joker's dream and run for his fucking life.

Itachi vs Freddy thread(with circumstances favoring Itachi) = You high or something? Freddy's a fucking dreamlord LOL. He's gonna murder Itachi even with Susano'o.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 28, 2012)

HardCore said:


> So Ben has country-level DC and durability?



yes, he does when you are eating a blow from Gladiator and not turning into soup (unless you're an x-men then even Beak could take it..poor Gladz jobs soo hard to them) yeah

when you routinely get into brawls with and through your own sheer toughness and resistance to pain are able to function and use your skills to hang in there with characters that can one shot anyone from the HSt by clapping too hard you are at the very least country level

This entire thread and every thread like it where low marvel mid tiers get put up against Naruto character amuses me to no end.. the desperation in a few posters that try reaaalllyy hard to get a win for narido is kinda sad in a funny way


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 28, 2012)

feebas_factor said:


> Now Flutter, you shouldn't judge people eldritchesque abominations just by their appearances.
> 
> Breakdancing and guitar picks then. Juubi wins with style.
> 
> ...



I've seen she hulk claimed to be country level as well.
I forget the thread.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 28, 2012)

some solid calcs would really help Marvel in that tier


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## Qinglong (Dec 28, 2012)

I'd have to see the Thunderclap image again... I don't even remember which forum it was.

I do know one of Iron Man's older armors got bumped to at least small island level survivability (it was completely drained of power though) from an old fight with Terrax launching a rock the size of Manhattan  or so at him (and he's lifted Manhattan before).

EDIT: thefuck@gladiator's page, definitely need to see more info from that fight if he took a full blast from depowered Tyrant for no damage...


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## feebas_factor (Dec 28, 2012)

Consistently country-level Thing. 
For serious now.
Oh my.




Fluttershy said:


> Some solid calcs would really help Marvel in that tier


Pffft. Who really needs calcs when you can just handwave in powerscaling and claim validity/jobbing selectively and arbitrarily to suit whatever particular match you like? 


Unlosing Ranger said:


> I've seen she hulk claimed to be country level as well.
> I forget the thread.


 Most of it involved trying to assess She-Hulk's standing based on her relatively limited showings. Ben, though, was fairly concisely agreed to lose in his match-up against Toriko.

Which, again, is sort of amusing considering Juubi's stats are actually higher than Toriko's.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 28, 2012)

> Which, again, is sort of amusing considering Juubi's stats are actually higher than Toriko's.


only until surface area comes a-knockin 


and he loses out in speed atm


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 28, 2012)

feebas_factor said:


> Most of it involved trying to assess She-Hulk's standing based on her relatively limited showings. Ben, though, was fairly concisely agreed to lose in his match-up against Toriko.
> 
> Which, again, is sort of amusing considering Juubi's stats are actually higher than Toriko's.



Yea,that's the one.


----------



## HeavyMetalThunder (Dec 28, 2012)

> some solid calcs would really help Marvel in that tier



The only calc we have about the Thing is the one of the hydraulic press feat, the one when he overpowers a press that can plow through a planet.
Turns out it's low end town level.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 28, 2012)

don't think that can be properly quantified tbh

or even possible with a contraption like that


----------



## Qinglong (Dec 28, 2012)

I can take a look for the thunderclap scan, I think it was one of TF's posts

Found him taking 500,000 MV from Doom (for what that's worth)


*Spoiler*: __ 









Some others

*Spoiler*: __ 







Tranquil Fury said:


> Thing's thunderclap worked on armor that was above mountain level, Doom's armors and barriers vary but they generally take a lot to bring down like Johnny's flames or Susan who has more H4X barriers.
> 
> Doom's more recent showings imply his armor and shields are much stronger than back in the day. Makes sense he'd upgrade his tech as he gains more knowledge. Doom is dangerous due to magic+Tech+intelligence/super computer level thinking+ willpower+ other abilities, last one is banned.





Tranquil Fury said:


> Good for him now quantify how much stronger he is when he is serious else Thing clobbers him. He's survived hits from characters that make Akuma look like a baby such as Champion, Hulk, Namor and others who are class 100s. Thing is a determinator, his gimmick is taking hits from stronger characters and surviving repeatedly as those mentioned and above are proof, he's also a class 90 now. He could also thunderclap.





Ben Grimm said:


> I seriously doubt the Universal Champion hit Ben with a planet buster. Before their fight, the Champ apparently hit Sasquatch with a punch that would have shattered a mid-sized mountain. Ben tanked multiple mountain busting punches in that match
> 
> Also Ben tanked an Asteroid buster named Blaastar as well as a meteor buster named Shangra Star Dancer.





Tranquil Fury said:


> Thing has taken hits from characters that hit harder than Island level, that's like class 75 to 80 or so and Thing I believe is Class 90 now. It helps he's a determinator who takes more than he can dish out regularly as part of his character.





Tranquil Fury said:


> Class 90 is below guys who can destroy or move planets. He'd still hit in the millions of tons easily. Mountain level+ strength? I don't see why his thunderclap would'nt outright end the match. Off topic but what comic does he
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Ben Grimm said:


> Marvel two-in-one Annual #7
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Tranquil Fury said:


> Yusuke would take down Ben Grimm, he's mountain level+ but Yusuke is on par or above that easily. Yusuke has more speed than Ben, plus range and comparable strength. Ben has his thunderclap though. Still Ben Grimm is good money for Yusuke
> 
> Some feats for thing, works out with a machine that generated enough force to level a small mountain
> 
> ...





Tranquil Fury said:


> Survives this explosion here that is visible on the island, hurt his hand but not bad considering it's his weaker version
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...







This is what I found, still can't find the exact TC scan though


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 28, 2012)

every time you guys calculate marvel feats they come suspiciously below the opponents you have them fighting

forgive me if I chose to go purely by the feats in this case


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 28, 2012)

only Mike does comics calcs tbh


----------



## Qinglong (Dec 28, 2012)

Yeah, only EM really calcs them out

Pretty sure he did the calc for the random kyrptonian woman relativistic punch though


----------



## Huey Freeman (Dec 28, 2012)

FireEel said:


> Joker vs Freddy thread = You high or something? Freddy's not a fucking dreamlord LOL. He's gonna look into Joker's dream and run for his fucking life.
> 
> Itachi vs Freddy thread(with circumstances favoring Itachi) = You high or something? Freddy's a fucking dreamlord LOL. He's gonna murder Itachi even with Susano'o.





Offtopic: Both of those are wrong 1) Freddy is no, not even close to being a dreamLord, a dream lord would be Endless of Dreams. Freddy is just a manipulator . No dream lord depends on his victims dreams (See how drugs shut out Freddy). 

Second, why your analogy failed is because Joker couldnt be held to account by Spectre powers in fact it drove the Spectre, the wrath of the presence, mad and away. 


On Topic:

Make of what you will






Resisted Doom with SS and got a couple hits in (Doom got the better ).



Perfectly fine if you would consider the above under CIS or PIS. Just listing it.



Taking hits from Herc


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Dec 28, 2012)

Juubi takes this. He's way, way, faster than the thing. I've heard about him reacting to a hypersonic+ ICBM, but not anything MHS.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 28, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> Offtopic: Both of those are wrong 1) Freddy is no, not even close to being a dreamLord, a dream lord would be Endless of Dreams. Freddy is just a manipulator . No dream lord depends on his victims dreams (See how drugs shut out Freddy).
> 
> Second, why your analogy failed is because Joker couldnt be held to account by Spectre powers in fact it drove the Spectre, the wrath of the presence, mad and away.



That's amusing he tried to pull a stunt like that again?

as to the calcs I mean the ones done by the opposition in these threads.. not EM and Neverminds blog calcs


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Dec 28, 2012)

IWD, if you don't like the calcs why don't you try quantifying it yourself?


----------



## Qinglong (Dec 28, 2012)

I posted some feats and quotes from older threads about Thing already, depends if you think him taking attacks from Champion was Champion holding back massively or not (I know he's managed to take on weaker hulks and he did take hits from WWH without being completely flattened or one-two shotted iirc, Mr. Fantastic took around five hits if I remember right)

But yeah he's massively outclassed in speed against either form and starting distance is 10-20m however that helps/hurts and OP didn't even specify which Form he's fighting


----------



## Tom Servo (Dec 28, 2012)

what kind of strength feats does the Thing have? i mean i know he benchpresses mountains and crap but are there other feats higher than that?


----------



## feebas_factor (Dec 29, 2012)

Unfortunately all of the Thing's highest feats are just scaled straight from stronger characters he's fought with, which leaves us guessing arbitrarily at just how much his opponent was holding back/jobbing at the time.



Which I guess is the cause of a lot of the massive variability you see from thread to thread. 

While they're still impressive, none of his actually potentially calculable feats would come even remotely close to country level. I don't recall what his best explicit strength feat is but it's probably far less than he'd get from even moderate scaling anyway.


----------



## HeavyMetalThunder (Dec 29, 2012)

> as to the calcs I mean the ones done by the opposition in these threads.. not EM and Neverminds blog calcs



Well, EM is the only one that even bothers with comic calcs, anyway.


----------



## DHxCohaco (Dec 29, 2012)

IIRC the thing isn't even small country level  
but i could be wrong since my knowledge on comics sucks


----------



## Krypton (Dec 29, 2012)

DHxCohaco said:


> IIRC the thing isn't even small country level
> but i could be wrong since my knowledge on comics sucks



Not even close.


----------



## Calamity (Dec 29, 2012)

IMO, I think it'd be really good to have some consistent placements for the *more popular comic characters*, i.e. the people knowledgeable in comics should get together and decide/argue where exactly a popular comic book character stands, which feats are legit, which ones would be considered as outliers/low-showings, etc. and based on that come up with the stats. If there are multiple versions, then list them separately.

*Easier said than done I know.* Just a suggestion.

My experience on threads involving popular comic characters goes like this 


*Spoiler*: __ 




*Thread:* Massively Popular Comic character X vs not-so-popular comic/non-comic character Y
Poster 1: Uh huh...stomp thread. Y curbstomps.
Poster 2: Yeah, X is only street level. Y destroyed a planet. Y easily.
Poster 3: Nope. X did this and this. <posts scans> He is solid star level
Poster 2: Oh, I never knew he did this. Yeah, X wins then in that case.
Poster 1: Uh, those are outliers. Heck, Y punched Galactus <posts scans>, stopped Juggernaut, held the HOTU in his arms for a femtosecond, <insert feats here>.
Poster 3: Nope. Those are CIS/PIS/low-showings for Galactus. Punch Galactus you say? Here, X made Galactus trip which in turn caused the destruction of an entire multiverse and X survived it<posts scan>. That is far greater than anything Y has done. X is multiversal.
Poster 1: Hahahaha...that was starving Galactus at 0.00001% of his power. Here we see Galactus go all out <posts scan> and Y speedblitzes him.
<argument continues>
Innocent Bystander: ?????????



The above scenario is totally made-up BTW.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 29, 2012)

This entire thread is fucking hilarious. In the  thread, everyone ignored Raditz' actual feats and relied on powerscaling from Piccolo's PIS moonbuster and that was that.

Apparently people are too hypocritical to apply the same standard to Ben, who routinely tangles with (and beats) people with feats way better than Piccolo's


----------



## feebas_factor (Dec 29, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> This entire thread is fucking hilarious. In the  thread, everyone ignored Raditz' actual feats and relied on powerscaling from Piccolo's PIS moonbuster and that was that.
> 
> Apparently people are too hypocritical to apply the same standard to Ben, who routinely tangles with (and beats) people with feats way better than Piccolo's



Considering moonbusting takes over ten thousand times more energy than continent-busting (ex: Nappa), it is a bit of a stretch. Personally I'm of the opinion that none of the moonbusting feats are outliers and Dragonball's moon is just _extremely_ small.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 29, 2012)

but Raditz actually *was* >= Piccolo


----------



## HeavyMetalThunder (Dec 29, 2012)

> This entire thread is fucking hilarious. In the Juubi vs. Raditz thread, everyone ignored Raditz' actual feats and relied on powerscaling from Piccolo's PIS moonbuster and that was that.
> 
> Apparently people are too hypocritical to apply the same standard to Ben, who routinely tangles with (and beats) people with feats way better than Piccolo's



Dude, not saying Juubi wins, even though it's possible, but don't you think powerscaling gets a bit wonky when applied to a 50-whatever years old fiction with many retcons and crossovers and whatnot such as marvel? At least DB was written by the same author, there are inconsistencies, obviously, but it's still much more reliable than marvel when it comes to powerscaling. I'm not saying we should throw powerscaling out when it comes to western comics, but if there is a scan of him knocking back Galactus (which is likely) then it's probably inconsistent. I'm sure you can find hilariously low end showings too, but nobody ever takes those in account. IMO the best thing would be to find an "average" or something like that...his most consistent feats/fights/powerscaling(s).


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Dec 29, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> This entire thread is fucking hilarious. In the  thread, everyone ignored Raditz' actual feats and relied on powerscaling from Piccolo's PIS moonbuster and that was that.
> 
> Apparently people are too hypocritical to apply the same standard to Ben, who routinely tangles with (and beats) people with feats way better than Piccolo's



So what would you say Ben's stats are?


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 29, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> but Raditz actually *was* >= Piccolo



Yeah and you're basing this all on one feat. Ben has feats and has beaten people with way more and more impressive feats...



HeavyMetalThunder said:


> Dude, not saying Juubi wins, even though it's possible, but don't you think powerscaling gets a bit wonky when applied to a 50-whatever years old fiction with many retcons and crossovers and whatnot such as marvel? At least DB was written by the same author, there are inconsistencies, obviously, but it's still much more reliable than marvel when it comes to powerscaling.



Bullshit. That's an old troll argument invented by DBZtards and the Phenom Brigade.



> I'm not saying we should throw powerscaling out when it comes to western comics, but if there is a scan of him knocking back Galactus (which is likely) then it's probably inconsistent.



Because people are seriously claiming he's on the level of being a threat to Galactus 



> I'm sure you can find hilariously low end showings too, but nobody ever takes those in account. IMO the best thing would be to find an "average" or something like that...his most consistent feats/fights/powerscaling(s).



This is the same kind of bullshit that gets thrown around by trolls when they obviously don't intend to apply it honestly.

Let's try taking the "average" of DBZ characters, based on the damage they do in their fights. They're then mountain level or so at best.

Using this kind of metric people can just throw out any feats they don't like.

Someone posts Ben doing something beyond the capacity of the Juubi? "Oh, it's an outlier, it doesn't count." Why is it an outlier? Because it makes Ben stronger than Juubi


----------



## Gibbs (Dec 29, 2012)

How would Ben handle the Lazerdama? Or this:

or

damage shown below


 casually flicking away Hachibi's full power Bijuu Dama


Last one shows scale


i'm not saying Juubi would win, but how would he cope with that?


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 29, 2012)

Thunderclap it away, or just tank it. Or punch it away, since these chakra attacks can apparently be deflected by physical force.

I can show a nice feat of Ben punching over a giant creature made of living black holes but downplayers would call PIS on it


----------



## ThanatoSeraph (Dec 29, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Yeah and you're basing this all on one feat. Ben has feats and has beaten people with way more and more impressive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No... You're misunderstanding this. People are asking where we draw the line and where his high end feats become outliers within context of the story. This is the same thing we do for any character. It's just a hell of a lot harder to do with a comic character.



> Using this kind of metric people can just throw out any feats they don't like.



You still have to be able to peg him _somewhere_.

Because it is really confusing when in one thread he's pegged at island level and then in another thread he's argued to be far above that. From what little I've read with him in it, the latter is probably more likely, but I have no idea where the line is drawn and his high end feats become outliers.



> Someone posts Ben doing something beyond the capacity of the Juubi? "Oh, it's an outlier, it doesn't count." Why is it an outlier? Because it makes Ben stronger than Juubi



Mike, a lot of people have _no idea_ how strong Ben is and are just basing what they know on previous threads. If those feats aren't outliers then you correct them and tell them why it isn't one.

Of course there's always going to be downplayers but screw them. Just tell everyone how strong you'd peg him as and why.


----------



## HeavyMetalThunder (Dec 29, 2012)

> Bullshit. That's an old troll argument invented by DBZtards and the Phenom Brigade.



I wasn't actually comparing it with DBZ, dude, you brought that up in the first place. It was an example. Could've just used any other short fictional work.



> Because people are seriously claiming he's on the level of being a threat to Galactus



Another example. I know there are "feats" of low/mid tiers knocking much more powerful enemies off their feet, hence the example.




> Someone posts Ben doing something beyond the capacity of the Juubi? "Oh, it's an outlier, it doesn't count." Why is it an outlier? Because it makes Ben stronger than Juubi



I wouldn't even care about this, since I couldn't care less about this thread, but you can't just use every single damn feat ever appeared in the whole fucking franchise without taking in account the MASSIVE inconsitencies. He's consistently around island+ level, or at least that's what you hear the most in threads, why does it change every time?


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 29, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> No... You're misunderstanding this. People are asking where we draw the line and where his high end feats become outliers within context of the story. This is the same thing we do for any character. It's just a hell of a lot harder to do with a comic character.



He can hurt and take hits from legit class 100s in a slugfest, but should usually not be able to beat them straight-on. Is that good enough?



> You still have to be able to peg him _somewhere_.
> 
> Because it is really confusing when in one thread he's pegged at island level and then in another thread he's argued to be far above that. From what little I've read with him in it, the latter is probably more likely, but I have no idea where the line is drawn and his high end feats become outliers.



If they're consistent enough, they can't be outliers.



> Mike, a lot of people have _no idea_ how strong Ben is and are just basing what they know on previous threads. If those feats aren't outliers then you correct them and tell them why it isn't one.
> 
> Of course there's always going to be downplayers but screw them. Just tell everyone how strong you'd peg him as and why.



Did already.



HeavyMetalThunder said:


> I wasn't actually comparing it with DBZ, dude, you brought that up in the first place. It was an example. Could've just used any other short fictional work.



Just saying that the debating tactic is the same.



> Another example. I know there are "feats" of low/mid tiers knocking much more powerful enemies off their feet, hence the example.



It was a poor and misleading example, leading to a potential strawman claim.



> I wouldn't even care about this, since I couldn't care less about this thread, but you can't just use every single damn feat ever appeared in the whole fucking franchise without taking in account the MASSIVE inconsitencies. He's consistently around island+ level, or at least that's what you hear the most in threads, why does it change every time?



Because people downplay him and don't have a good handle on his power, or they tend to ignore how he consistently performs against class 100 enemies.

I'm planning to go through some FF comics and do my best to find some quantifiable feats though, so watch out for that in a few months or so.


----------



## HeavyMetalThunder (Dec 29, 2012)

> Just saying that the debating tactic is the same.



I was just saying that there are less inconsistencies in a short series made by one author, rather than in a long running series made by multiple authors. Probably I used the wrong example.



> It was a poor and misleading example, leading to a potential strawman claim



My bad. But you get the point, right?


----------



## ThanatoSeraph (Dec 29, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> He can hurt and take hits from legit class 100s in a slugfest, but should usually not be able to beat them straight-on. Is that good enough?


Yeah, sure that's fine. I can't really comment on how accurate it is due to my limited knowledge of Ben though.



> If they're consistent enough, they can't be outliers.


Yes, this is true. The problem of course comes in when people either don't know how consistent the feats are or try to downplay him by posting low end feats/calling things outliers.



> I'm planning to go through some FF comics and do my best to find some quantifiable feats though, so watch out for that in a few months or so.



That should help a lot in Thing threads. Good luck with that.


----------



## Orochibuto (Dec 29, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Thunderclap it away, or just tank it. Or punch it away, since these chakra attacks can apparently be deflected by physical force.
> 
> I can show a nice feat of Ben punching over a giant creature made of living black holes but downplayers would call PIS on it



Didnt you did the same thing you are complaining about on the Sora No Otoshimono feats? I am not sure if it was you, if it wasnt then my apology.

But seriously yes, people should start stopping to says "X feat in the canon material doesnt count" if it is there then its a feat and does count, so if there are feats of Ben beign capable of defeating Juubi then he is and thats it.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 29, 2012)

It's not that there are no such things as outliers/PIS, it's just that people can't keep calling that all the time to dismiss anything they don't like.


----------



## Treerone (Dec 29, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> It's not that there are no such things as outliers/PIS, it's just that people can't keep calling that all the time to dismiss anything they don't like.



Well if someone says "Ben hit X once" or "Ben took a hit from Y once" it sort of sounds like it happened that one time and that it isn't a normal feat for Ben. If you were thinking of doing F4 calc in the near future then that can help clear that up for a lot of people.


----------



## Shoddragon (Dec 29, 2012)

feebas_factor said:


> Considering moonbusting takes over ten thousand times more energy than continent-busting (ex: Nappa), it is a bit of a stretch. Personally I'm of the opinion that none of the moonbusting feats are outliers and Dragonball's moon is just _extremely_ small.


\
...... but then the moonbusting wouldn't be legit moonbusting anyway so there would be no point in bringing it up XD


----------



## Qinglong (Dec 29, 2012)

One of his best feats was fighting... Gladiator? iirc


----------



## Orochibuto (Dec 29, 2012)

Treerone said:


> Well if someone says "Ben hit X once" or "Ben took a hit from Y once" it sort of sounds like it happened that one time and that it isn't a normal feat for Ben. If you were thinking of doing F4 calc in the near future then that can help clear that up for a lot of people.



IT IS, repetition is not a necessity for beign a valid feat, the only thing is needed is not to be contradicted, if it isnt contradicted beyond the shadow of reasonable doubg its a feat, to have an "outlier" you need the highest degree of proof, lack of reptition isnt said proof, after all we are talking about dimissing a clear feat that appeared in the canon material. You cant dictate an author intent, if they show a feat in the canon material it means that at least at the time the author wanted to put said feat and only a clear contradiction can nulify it, a lack of repetition or using it just once isnt a contradiction.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 29, 2012)

Ben scraps with class 100s all of the time. Hell, he's fought the Hulk so often they have running gags about it, "just like old times" and such.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Dec 29, 2012)

Apparently people just skim through the scan of Ben knocking Silver Surfer on his ass.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 29, 2012)

Well if you mean the one from Surfer's first appearance, that was actually explained as Surfer just letting himself get hit since he didn't particularly care.


----------



## Tom Servo (Dec 29, 2012)

Quick question according to marvel database Thing's skin got sliced by Wolverine's claws

Does this mean Hulk's skin>>Thing's skin

Since Wolverine's claws couldnt cut Hulk's skin


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 29, 2012)

Wolverine has cut Hulk before. He's cut everybody, pretty much. That's just how wanked he is


----------



## Huey Freeman (Dec 29, 2012)

Who told you Adamantium cant cut Hulk?


----------



## Huey Freeman (Dec 29, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Wolverine has cut Hulk before. He's cut everybody, pretty much. That's just how wanked he is



Still hasnt been able to cut Colossus yet .


----------



## feebas_factor (Dec 29, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> He can hurt and take hits from legit class 100s in a slugfest, but should usually not be able to beat them straight-on. Is that good enough?



So... mountain-level? Low island level? High island level? Country level? 

Cause it changes every thread and AFAIK the vast majority of his feats don't square with where he scales. 

Eh, but if you don't feel like pegging him right at the moment though that's fine.



Endless Mike said:


> I'm planning to go through some FF comics and do my best to find some quantifiable feats though, so watch out for that in a few months or so.



Look forward to it. Hopefully we'll be able to have a bit of patience and refrain somewhat from Thing threads in the meantime.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 29, 2012)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> IWD, if you don't like the calcs why don't you try quantifying it yourself?



because I don't have too..where the fuck does it say in order to have an opinion on a characters feats I need to go and get into a math off with another poster?

Nowhere, that's where. I have an issue with them claiming that this thing on Radditz level or some shit thats its bijuu bomb is being treated as some nappa two finger crap..that it's going to take down someone who can duke it out with Hulk, Namor and the like for decades and not die instantly

coming back to me with "oh but those are high ends and his wiki says only this and the derbi is calced here" sounds like utter nonsense to me an application of ludacris double standards and then compensating for this by crying "oh but he doesn't do math! " or "oh but the showings are too high end because we say ignoring a character history that says otherwise older than my fucking parents!!"

This is what it feels like whenever these threads happen and its seriously bad, it shows there is a serious problem with the way things are currently being done here and that's a major problem.

tldr; no problem with calcs they serve a wonderful useful purpose of helping people easily analyze and comprehend why a feat is so bad ass..but they do not take precedence over the actual feats and using them as a means of downplaying the argument of the other side or character without them is a little weird 




Endless Mike said:


> Apparently people are too hypocritical to apply the same standard to Ben, who routinely tangles with (and beats) people with feats way better than Piccolo's



but Mike four to five decades of tustling with class 100's is just PIS! I thought you got the memo!



HeavyMetalThunder said:


> Dude, not saying Juubi wins, even though it's possible, but don't you think powerscaling gets a bit wonky when applied to a 50-whatever years old fiction with many retcons and crossovers and whatnot such as marvel?




this argument fails to work for a number of reasons the first being Marvel never had a COIE and the second being when something was retconned in marvel they made a big fucking deal of it.

going by this logic though DBZ being what thirty years old? Yeah we need to apply the same thing to them...or how about to Bastard and Saint Saiya that are again over a generation in age and clearly we should scrutinize everything!

Oh wait no..it doesn't work like that, sorry 

See if you are going to powerscale one side you apply it to the other if you don't then you are engaging in outright dishonesty 




HeavyMetalThunder said:


> At least DB was written by the same author, there are inconsistencies, obviously, but it's still much more reliable than marvel when it comes to powerscaling.



This is a statement that has no validity used as a crutch by the desperate or the depraved and almost universally by trolls.

one author can be inconsistent as many Akira toriyama and Masashi Kishimoto and Joseph Leob are all living proof of this. You will not and cannot attempt to apply a double standard based on the age or amount of authors

doing so opens the floodgates for all manner of dishonesty.



HeavyMetalThunder said:


> I'm not saying we should throw powerscaling out when it comes to western comics,



No that's exactly what you're saying 



HeavyMetalThunder said:


> IMO the best thing would be to find an "average" or something like that...his most consistent feats/fights/powerscaling(s).


\

I tell you what from now on we're going to dismiss every high end showing from Naruto and go by the average stuff for the sake of consistency

*listens to all the raging and roaring cries of a merciless double standard by the naruto hating comictards of the quality brigade*

yup...thought so

sorry but you don't get to dismiss high end showings because you feel their inconsistent while utilizing the high end showings of the other side

that type of hypocritical nonsense is to my knowledge still not allowed



Qinglong said:


> One of his best feats was fighting... Gladiator? iirc



That wasn't a fight

that was a rape

Ben got one shotted..his insides were more or less soup but he got back up and staggered to his feat

that is so insanely impressive it leads me to believe virtually nothing in the HST can harm him



Endless Mike said:


> Wolverine has cut Hulk before. He's cut everybody, pretty much. That's just how wanked he is



Boneclaw wolverine cutting Thanos


----------



## HeavyMetalThunder (Dec 30, 2012)

Way to misunderstand, IWD. I explained what I meant when I replied again to Mike.
What I meant is that you can't just pretend there are no outliers and PIS in Marvel. And by the way I couldn't care less about this thread, but for fuck's sake, there are outliers in marvel too! I'm not saying him going toe to toe with class 100s is one, and I never even said it. Same goes for any other fiction, actually. 

Pretty much this



> Well if someone says "Ben hit X once" or "Ben took a hit from Y once" it sort of sounds like it happened that one time and that it isn't a normal feat for Ben.



is what I meant. Sure, if he does so on a consistent basis, as you guys are saying, it's another thing.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Dec 30, 2012)

IMO power scaling off characters within that particular comic, such as human torch in the thing's case, is usually legit. It's powerscaling off crossovers that gets into a murky grey area.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Dec 30, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> because I don't have too..where the fuck does it say in order to have an opinion on a characters feats I need to go and get into a math off with another poster?
> 
> Nowhere, that's where. I have an issue with them claiming that this thing on Radditz level or some shit thats its bijuu bomb is being treated as some nappa two finger crap..that it's going to take down someone who can duke it out with Hulk, Namor and the like for decades and not die instantly
> 
> ...


Yeah, but all I'm saying is, if you think a calc is wrong, at least give an alternative scaling or a reason why, rather than just because lolisayso. It could be the said feat is an outlier, or the feat does not fully display the power of the said attack, but if so, you need to stop going on about the feat and don't attack the calcer. All they do is quantify what they see, they can't quantify the unquantifiable. Also, I think you might make a god calcer, so it might be worth making or anylising one or two.


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## Tom Servo (Dec 30, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> Who told you Adamantium cant cut Hulk?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 30, 2012)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> Way to misunderstand, IWD. I explained what I meant when I replied again to Mike.
> What I meant is that you can't just pretend there are no outliers and PIS in Marvel. And by the way I couldn't care less about this thread, but for fuck's sake, there are outliers in marvel too! I'm not saying him going toe to toe with class 100s is one, and I never even said it. Same goes for any other fiction, actually.
> .



yeah I'm aware of what you meant I'm nipping it in the butt..and as for not pretending about outliers existing, that's silly any comic expert knows they exists, hell we mock them readily in a lot of threads. I've avoided entire threads because one character was all outlier for example for christs sakes so you didn't have a valid case to raise there



jetwaterluffy1 said:


> IMO power scaling off characters within that particular comic, such as human torch in the thing's case, is usually legit. It's powerscaling off crossovers that gets into a murky grey area.



powerscaling off crossovers? If you mean between marvel titles I don't see why not, I mean I don't like abc logic, I don't like powerscaling, I don't see the issue of using Ben's history of fighting these guys to put him on a level..but total scaling away from feats = bad

that being said..crossovers between marvel characters and other stuff are flat out not canon period- no one has any business scaling anything from them



jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Yeah, but all I'm saying is, if you think a calc is wrong, at least give an alternative scaling or a reason why, rather than just because lolisayso. It could be the said feat is an outlier, or the feat does not fully display the power of the said attack, but if so, you need to stop going on about the feat and don't attack the calcer. All they do is quantify what they see, they can't quantify the unquantifiable. Also, I think you might make a god calcer, so it might be worth making or anylising one or two.



as long as their is a clique of people who think their mathematical interpretations supersede on panel scripture (though this is less prevalent in this section) as long as people continue to use the hard work of other posters (our calcers) as a crutch to determine a debate when they are too uninformed to make a proper decision themselves or are attempting to use them and a wiki article to mask their blatant biases as seen in this thread- I will be resisting it, and I will be advocating the traditional method.




godzillafan430 said:


> snip



inconsistent yeah, on the one hand you have Wolverine's claws being pushed back into his arm when he tries to stab Sentry, and like here fails to cut hulk

on another Bone claw wolverine draws blood on someone who can eat shots from Odin to the face and stagger back to his feat

basically- Adamantium should be able to cut whatever the hell it wants- marvel writers vary on whether Wolverine has the force required to push his claws to where they can mark up guys like hulk or not

best just toss it up to "lolwolverine"


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## brolyeuphyfusion (Dec 30, 2012)

The Thing wins with ease


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## Tom Servo (Dec 30, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> best just toss it up to "lolwolverine"



"lolverine"


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## Redterror (Dec 30, 2012)

Didn't the Thing survive a beating from Gladiator, a guy who destroyed planets?


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Dec 30, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> powerscaling off crossovers? If you mean between marvel titles I don't see why not, I mean I don't like abc logic, I don't like powerscaling, I don't see the issue of using Ben's history of fighting these guys to put him on a level."



The main reason why powerscaling in marvel is so tricky is because it is full of jobbing. The reason why it is full of jobbing is shared universe stuff. Therefore you are an awful lot safer scaling off non-shared universe stuff than things like the avengers. Not that you can't do it, it's just shared universe powerscaling is an awful lot more messy.


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## ZergKage (Dec 30, 2012)

Redterror said:
			
		

> Didn't the Thing survive a beating from Gladiator, a guy who destroyed planets?



If by survive you mean taking one punch and barely being able to remain conscious, then sure.




*Spoiler*: __


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## Redterror (Dec 30, 2012)

Thanks, its just that I've heard the feat referenced so many times before.


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## ZergKage (Dec 30, 2012)

NP, maybe there is another fight but this is the only one I could find.


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## Qinglong (Dec 30, 2012)

That isn't the fight I was talking about, it was another Ultimate(?) where Champion and Thing fought 3 rounds and Champion gave up because he didn't want to kill Thing.

Although not getting pasted is still pretty good, depending on how much Champion was holding back.


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## Redterror (Dec 30, 2012)

Qinglong said:


> That isn't the fight I was talking about, it was another Ultimate(?) where Champion and Thing fought 3 rounds and Champion gave up because he didn't want to kill Thing.
> 
> Although not getting pasted is still pretty good, depending on how much Champion was holding back.



Ah yeah that's the one, I mixed up the characters. That's actually a pretty good feat, is there any proof to suggest he was holding back significantly?


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 30, 2012)

Redterror said:


> Ah yeah that's the one, I mixed up the characters. That's actually a pretty good feat, is there any proof to suggest he was holding back significantly?



None, btw monkey from dexter's lab references it as well.
It all goes back to guess what Rocky.


He's beats them all (beating colossus in one round)Then












*Spoiler*: __


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## Redterror (Dec 30, 2012)

Is that the episode where Monkey fights Wrasslor (sounds like Randy Savage?)? If so, it was a very nice reference indeed. Regarding Ben though, his durability will save him against the Bijuu considering the feats, unless someone is willing to argue inconsistencies and what not?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 30, 2012)

godzillafan430 said:


> "lolverine"



that works too considering his fights with death or whatever



Redterror said:


> Didn't the Thing survive a beating from Gladiator, a guy who destroyed planets?




he got liver punched by Gladz and was barely able to stand but did manage..

I doubt Gladz was going full power this is a character who can out put multi-planet busting force just by flexing his bicep too hard. But its still impressive in "damage soak" kind of sense



jetwaterluffy1 said:


> The main reason why powerscaling in marvel is so tricky is because it is full of jobbing. The reason why it is full of jobbing is shared universe stuff. Therefore you are an awful lot safer scaling off non-shared universe stuff than things like the avengers. Not that you can't do it, it's just shared universe powerscaling is an awful lot more messy.



Which isn't true Pendaren and Lochdale on CBR got into it with Kurt Busiek the writer of that famous jlu/avengers cross over (or he was involved at least forget which) they challenged him a lot on the Superman vs Thor fight and eventually the damn author had to admit he jobbed Thor out..

crossovers can be just as full of bullshit


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 31, 2012)

The crossover was more of a fan service.

Also some of those fights were going to be the same outcome regardless. Aquaman instead of dropping a whale would have just shut down Namor brain.

Flash would still babyshake Quicksilver 

Elektra would still babyshake Catwoman.

Fights like

Lobo losing to Lolervine is one of the worst jobbs yet.

Wonder Woman to storm really? The chick has the speed of Mercury ffs.

And to those Spidey fans who live in a secluded world where Spidey doesnt have a jobber aura Superboy vs Spiderman is a clear example. 

/rant












When Ben weaker Ultimate version start showing energy manipulation such as absorption Juubi is even more fucked


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 31, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> Wonder Woman to storm really? The chick has the speed of Mercury ffs.
> 
> And to those Spidey fans who live in a secluded world where Spidey doesnt have a jobber aura Superboy vs Spiderman is a clear example.
> 
> /rant



The Lobo thing made sense given the explanation that Xavier paid the main man to take a dive- from what I understand of his character and what I remember from reading his books long ago was that, that's not an unbelievable thing.

Storm vs WW and SB vs SM was just plain shit though

and then the later crossover with Superman jobbing to carnage was just fucking fail


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## feebas_factor (Dec 31, 2012)

Minor update: Juubi just tanked one of his own teraton level blasts...
...detonating inside his stomach.

Link removed
Link removed
Link removed

So as long as Ben has consistently country level DC now. 
And can leap two kilometers into the air before it can take a single step backwards and climb inside its mouth and attack its interal organs. 

He has a pretty good chance here.


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## Qinglong (Dec 31, 2012)

I thought the blast wasn't fully charged?

Although Hachibi did lose a tooth from that.


Going by EM's statement it's going to be awhile before we get right into where Thing's durability/damage soak/endurance lie.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 31, 2012)

Qinglong said:


> I thought the blast wasn't fully charged?
> 
> Although Hachibi did lose a tooth from that.
> 
> ...



He also lost a tentacle from sasuke 
Watch him regrow his tooth.


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## Hyperion1O1 (Dec 31, 2012)

Can octopuses even regrow teeth?


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## DarkTorrent (Dec 31, 2012)

In lolfiction anything is possible.


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## Hyperion1O1 (Dec 31, 2012)

Lolkishi, thinking octopuses have teeth


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 31, 2012)

Xavier paid Lobo cash to lose to Wolverine ?


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Dec 31, 2012)

No, the cosmic brother did. Obviously.


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## steveht93 (Dec 31, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> that's not Ad hod that's the truth
> 
> and he's not a country buster I mean like I wanna see him kill a few million people before I accept that..he has massive range but call me when he levels an area the size of France



 

The energy yeild was accepted by good and well known members. And I think country busting starts at 1 teraton on the obd.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 31, 2012)

Country busting starts at 7 teratons.


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## Shivers (Dec 31, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> The Thing shouldnt soil his hands on this. After all this is a guy who fights the likes of Galactus and Dr. Doom.





Danger Doom said:


> Fight the likes of doesnt translate to putting up a fight .


If you know that, then what was the point of bringing up his fighting Galactus like it could be used to gauge his power in any way?


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## Emperor Joker (Dec 31, 2012)

all right this has gone on long enough.

if anybody feels like it should be re-opened VM me.


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