# Goku vs Superman (The most trascendental)



## realmathena1 (Jan 21, 2010)

So this is not a power vs, this is to see who of both you consider in the world of fiction to be the most trascendental and iconic character?


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 21, 2010)

realmathena1: After the Negging


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## realmathena1 (Jan 21, 2010)

I dont undersand you Darth what you want to say, also I searched in the search bar and didnt showed up (they showed up power battles only)


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## Fang (Jan 21, 2010)

what exactly does "trascendental" mean?


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## Nimademe (Jan 21, 2010)

Superman, easily.

When you were born, were you raised on Superman or Goku?

You were raised by the patriotic awesome of Superman.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 21, 2010)

The prey putting the target on its own back


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## Nimademe (Jan 21, 2010)

Oh c'mon, at least it's not a fight.

I know Superman vs Goku instills an automatic sense of troll alert in us, but you can't kill him just for that.


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## Hellspawn28 (Jan 21, 2010)

Superman wins when it comes to being more popular and more inconic. My grandfather knows who Superman is, and he is like 78 years old. Goku is popular, but he is not a house brand name though.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 21, 2010)

Nimademe said:


> Oh c'mon, at least it's not a fight.
> 
> Just because Superman vs Goku instills an automatic sense of troll alert in us, you can't kill him just for that.



But I am not the one going to do the killing, mein square


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## Sansao (Jan 21, 2010)

Nimademe said:


> Superman, easily.
> 
> When you were born, were you raised on Superman or Goku?
> 
> You were raised by the patriotic awesome of Superman.



I was raised on Saint Seiya 

and here in brazil i always tought that goku was more pupular than supes among the childrem. But that is just me.


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## C. Hook (Jan 21, 2010)

Supes created an entire genre pretty much by himself. He is THE superhero.

Goku had help. If I ask my nephew to name the most famous superhero, he knows exactly who to say. If I ask for the alien with spikey hair who can bust planets and stars in a Japanese cartoon, he gives me a quissical look.


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## Nimademe (Jan 21, 2010)

Basically, Superman stomps as much here as he does normally.

But do you notice that you never see Bruce Wayne and Superman at the same time? It's suspicious.


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## realmathena1 (Jan 22, 2010)

Darth Nihilus said:


> The prey putting the target on its own back



It was never my intent trolling man, if that is what you think, I just thought I have never seen a Goku vs Superman thread that is not a fight so I gave it a try, thats all


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 22, 2010)

I never called you a troll.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 22, 2010)

Nimademe said:


> Superman, easily.
> 
> When you were born, were you raised on Superman or Goku?
> 
> You were raised by the patriotic awesome of Superman.



the two most universally recognized words on the planet

meaning you can be..in a fucking jungle..under a rock surrounded by canabals

or in the lap of luxury in any modern city

no matter where you are..if you say these two words..people instantly know what trhey are

1, superman

2, coca cola

how the fuck can goku beat that?


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## Gunners (Jan 22, 2010)

Superman. To be honest it's a bit insulting comparing the two. In the beginning I suppose Superman was a bit of a dick but as time went on he was a character designed for people too idolise, an all round boyscout. 

With Goku not so much.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jan 22, 2010)

realmathena1 said:


> So this is not a power vs, this is to see who of both you consider in the world of fiction to be *the most trascendental and iconic character*?



Between the two?

Superman.

Easily.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 22, 2010)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Between the two?
> 
> Superman.
> 
> Easily.



true absolutely 

like i said the two words almost every one in the world immediately recognize regardless of nationality..location culture what ever

1, superman

2, coca cola..

i mean really when most of some seven billion people know who you are

your not a comic book character any more..your a modern..mythological hero


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## Narcissus (Jan 22, 2010)

This thread has indeed been done before. It ended with a lock. At any rate, placing Superman and Goku in any kind of situation that involves argument is just a bad idea all around because it can still draw trolls and fanboys. So this is still a bad thread.

But to answer the question, it's Superman.


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## Platinum (Jan 22, 2010)

Superman quite easily.


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## supreme91 (Jan 22, 2010)

While Goku is far cooler and more likable than Superman, Superman is far far more iconic to most people on these boards. This is because Superman has been around since the 1930's and he's an American character (most of us are Americans). 

One more thing, I don't think transcendental is the correct word to use in this context.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 22, 2010)

supreme91 said:


> While Goku is far cooler and more likable than Superman, Superman is far far more iconic to most people on these boards. This is because Superman has been around since the 1930's and he's an American character (most of us are Americans).



ERR it's not exclusively fucking American

it's all over the world..in every culture...almost every one..knows who superman is...


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## ChINaMaN1472 (Jan 22, 2010)

Superman is far more iconic Goku, probably more than any other fictional character in history.  Regardless of who's "more popular" within specific cultures, Superman has far surpassed Goku in influence globally.  You take Superman's logo vs. anything that represents Goku, I guarantee more people will know the Superman logo.

Superman has undoubtedly generated more revenue than Goku could ever hope to dream.  Superman has more fictional works than Goku.  Etc.


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## Gunners (Jan 22, 2010)

Goku has Dragonball evolution.


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## Daiyoukai Ramza (Jan 22, 2010)

Superman is the more iconic of the two, by far.

Hell, wouldn't be surprised if he was more iconic even in Japan.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 22, 2010)

Daiyoukai Ramza said:


> Superman is the more iconic of the two, by far.
> 
> Hell, wouldn't be surprised if he was more iconic even in Japan.



i think he is

allot of the new generation of  manga artists when asked what they grew up on you hear

"superman" "batman" "spiderman" "star wars/star trek" or "jack kirby"

you don't here "goku"

the guy..what did Astro boy and that phoenix saga.as massive an influence he is and not just in japan but around the world...

i think even he's surpassed by supes in japan


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## Whimsy (Jan 22, 2010)

Come on. Everyone (at least those not living under rocks) knows who superman is. I would doubt that many people of our parents generation know who Goku is.


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## Lina Inverse (Jan 22, 2010)

My grandma knows superman, and she's 86 years old.


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## Whimsy (Jan 22, 2010)

Lina Inverse said:


> My grandma knows superman, and she's 86 years old.



Well superman is 78


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## Tranquil Fury (Jan 22, 2010)

Superman, he's known by almost everyone on the Globe. Ask your grandparents who Superman is and they'll tell you, ask them who Goku is and they'll go "who?".  The creator of Dragonball  himself is a fan of Superman. Goku is based on Superman.


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## Gunners (Jan 22, 2010)

> i think he is
> 
> allot of the new generation of manga artists when asked what they grew up on you hear
> 
> ...


You're going overboard. I don't know who is more known between Superman and Goku in Japan but Superman does not have a greater influence over present Manga series than Dragonball.

Luffy for example if influenced by Goku.


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## Whimsy (Jan 22, 2010)

Gunners said:


> You're going overboard. I don't know who is more known between Superman and Goku in Japan but Superman does not have a greater influence over present Manga series than Dragonball.
> 
> Luffy for example if influenced by Goku.



And Goku was influenced by Superman. Doi-oi-oi-oi-oing.


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## enzymeii (Jan 22, 2010)

At least Goku never became electric


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## Glued (Jan 22, 2010)

Toriyama created this

[Youtube]ccVIighp4BI[/Youtube]

Now where did he get the idea for that?


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## Judas (Jan 22, 2010)

Superman is the most iconic. To think roughly 70 years of comic book history and still going strong.


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## Raigen (Jan 22, 2010)

I say Goku. A lot of people in the US grew up with Superman, but there are other countries where Goku was far more popular. All depends on where you live really. And I gotta say, you really think the Japanese, Chinese and other countries really wanted to see this symbol of American power in cartoon form after WW2? Of course the US kinda worshiped figures like Superman and Cap America, because really, to use Americans, they're like a phallic symbol we're waving at the world goin "We're the best and biggest! So screw the rest of you, right up Hiroshima and Nagasaki's asses!"

And don't get me wrong, Supes does have his good points. I have not hated his entire existence. But the thing is, DC tries waaaaay too hard with him. With Goku, it felt more natural. Like Superman, he started young and had to deal with various trials growing up. But, unlike Superman, Goku wasn't growing up with a "mother and father" figure to watch over him. Goku was a child when Old Gohan died (who in actuality was killed by Goku when he went Oozaru under a full moon and doesn't remember). Goku, despite being as a kid, still tried his hardest at everything he did and made friends along the way.

With Superman, soon as he showed up, people just loved him and he gets known the world over. Goku? Very few people on the whole planet knows who he is. Even fewer remember that he at one time claimed the title of World's Strongest Martial Artist after defeating Piccolo in the 23rd budokai.


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## Glued (Jan 22, 2010)

"When I first heard about DC's plans to "kill" Superman, I immediately called DC President Paul Levitz to beg him to cancel the idea. I forcefully made the argument that since Superman was such a recognized icon within America's overall popular culture, that DC had no more right to "kill" him than Disney had the right to "kill" Mickey Mouse. I went so far as to state that, in my opinion, DC didn't actually "own" Superman, but rather was a trustee of a sacred national image. "
-Chuck Rozanski.


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## Hotcherie (Jan 22, 2010)

Raigen brings up a good point. however, i say superman is the household name


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## Whimsy (Jan 22, 2010)

Goku's not more iconic though is he.


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## Glued (Jan 22, 2010)

Superman by Paul Hone
[YOUTUBE]BavGRZ_mF10[/YOUTUBE]

Its not Easy by Five for Fighting
[YOUTUBE]QOYIKw1NGSw[/YOUTUBE]

Wish I could Fly Like Superman by the Kinks
[YOUTUBE]fUT9KQ-LuaU[/YOUTUBE]

Superman's Song by Crash Test Dummies
[YOUTUBE]ihUIPlLw2ZE[/YOUTUBE]

Superman by Brown Boy
[YOUTUBE]WJ57dICVAco[/YOUTUBE]

I am Superman by REM
[YOUTUBE]lx8ZlbGYhw8[/YOUTUBE]

Kryptonite by 3 Doors Down
[YOUTUBE]Tpl6ncyxLGw[/YOUTUBE]


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## Norrin04 (Jan 22, 2010)

Superman with ease,Goku doesn't even compare in the slightest.


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## Rashou (Jan 22, 2010)

Superman had a good 40+ year head start on Goku. That alone gives him the win.


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## Raigen (Jan 22, 2010)

There's a ton of Goku and DBZ tributes on youtube. Supes being the US symbol doesn't make him more transcendental in my eyes. Btw, need I remind you, Superman 64 sucked hard. DBZ has a better and longer running game series than Superman/DC does.


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## Glued (Jan 22, 2010)

Raigen said:


> There's a ton of Goku and DBZ tributes on youtube. Supes being the US symbol doesn't make him more transcendental in my eyes. Btw, need I remind you, Superman 64 sucked hard. DBZ has a better and longer running game series than Superman/DC does.



Those were not just tributes, those were songs made by professional artists.


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## Raigen (Jan 22, 2010)

Which doesn't mean anything to me since most of them are American and who grew up on Superman. Goku has numerous themes from various Japanese artists/musicans and music instructors, but do they get noted here? No. Why? Not American.


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## Glued (Jan 22, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Which doesn't mean anything to me since most of them are American and who grew up on Superman. Goku has numerous themes from various Japanese artists/musicans and music instructors, but do they get noted here? No. Why? Not American.



Damn, I had no idea.


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## JustPimpin (Jan 22, 2010)

everyone knows Superman. Although I like Goku better.


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## Raigen (Jan 22, 2010)

They may not be major songs, but with the series and games and everything they've had to keep coming up with more and more themes and songs for Goku and the rest of the series. They have the regular themes, the opening tracks like "Cha-la Head-Cha-la" and in fact a number of more Americanized artists have done work for DBZ. Cha-La was actually re-done and sung by Gino Padilla. Then there's "Rock the Dragon" and I can't recall which band did that one.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 22, 2010)

Rashou said:


> Superman had a good 40+ year head start on Goku. That alone gives him the win.



Uh, Supes has been around since the 30s


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 22, 2010)

IlikeKuriso said:


> Raigen brings up a good point. however, i say superman is the household name



no he dosn't in the same countries he saying Americas hateds...you have raging superman fanatics

Raigens doing what he always does talk out of his but

never mind that like i've said Supermans the single most universally recognized word on the planet

almost every one knows who the fuck he is


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## Hellspawn28 (Jan 22, 2010)

Superman is rather popular in Japan also too. All of his movies expect for Superman 4 where boxoffice hits, and had a good long running tv series unlike the DB series where ended with GT, which sucked.


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## Glued (Jan 22, 2010)

Tamil superman
[YOUTUBE]QvvMbOzks7o[/YOUTUBE]


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## Raigen (Jan 22, 2010)

Dragonball has like 15-16 animated movies, from both Dragonball through DBZ, and Toriyama did a new one last year. One DBZ movie never even got released in the US.


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## realmathena1 (Jan 22, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Dragonball has like 15-16 animated movies, from both Dragonball through DBZ, and Toriyama did a new one last year. One DBZ movie never even got released in the US.



Is Goku named in a Bulk & Skull theme song?

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8wml2fTTTo[/YOUTUBE]

Ha, when Goku makes its way to Bulk & Skull we speak


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## death1217 (Jan 22, 2010)

to be honest it depends on where you grew up i grew up in the middle east  
and well anime was shit more popular over there then superman  goku was known to every kid and his parent  when i went to india (home country) i found it was a bit more balanced there but both of them were beaten by pokemon and beyblade


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## realmathena1 (Jan 22, 2010)

death1217 said:


> to be honest it depends on where you grew up i grew up in the middle east
> and well anime was shit more popular over there then superman  goku was known to every kid and his parent  when i went to india (home country) i found it was a bit more balanced there but both of them were beaten by pokemon and beyblade



Beyblade? At least in my country Beyblade became the typicall phenomena that made all my friends go crazy for 6 months and after that it was left in oblivion


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## God (Jan 22, 2010)

^ What are you trying to imply?


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## death1217 (Jan 22, 2010)

realmathena1 said:


> Beyblade? At least in my country Beyblade became the typicall phenomena that made all my friends go crazy for 6 months and after that it was left in oblivion



yes beyblade you can ask any guy or girl and they'd be able to tell the entire cast of beyblade in 60 seconds ...ANYONE! i was kinda creeped out by it but learned to acknowledge it and accept the craziness of the rapid fans i personally hated it and wanted to punch anyone who talks about it in the throat!


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## Stroev (Jan 22, 2010)

Give Goku a few decades' worth more time.

Then we can look into this.


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## Glued (Jan 22, 2010)

Turkish Superman Movie.

[Youtube]Yg8OXdDFWm0[/Youtube]


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## Lucaniel (Jan 22, 2010)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Between the two?
> 
> Superman.
> 
> Easily.



Yessssss

Read Superman: Peace On Earth if you disagree.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Jan 22, 2010)

IMO Goku is better, but he isn't even close to superman in popularity, but who knows what the future holds.


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## Raigen (Jan 22, 2010)

Here's a question for you. How many get famous for doing DC roles? Not many, since most actors are already well known or famous. Now, how many do you suppose became famous due to roles as playing voices in DBZ and/or other anime series? I can tell you; A Lot. There are tons of people who had previously done pretty minor voice roles in American shows and cartoons and weren't really recognized until they started doing voices for Anime characters, either in anime itself or their game genres, sometimes both.


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## realmathena1 (Jan 22, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Here's a question for you. How many get famous for doing DC roles? Not many, since most actors are already well known or famous. Now, how many do you suppose became famous due to roles as playing voices in DBZ and/or other anime series? I can tell you; A Lot. There are tons of people who had previously done pretty minor voice roles in American shows and cartoons and weren't really recognized until they started doing voices for Anime characters, either in anime itself or their game genres, sometimes both.



Is Goku or any DBZ thing in an official Bulk & Skull theme song?

No, really the power rangers is considered to be the major fictional event from JAPANESSE origin that caused a greater impact in the world, most than any anime and even power rangers is the "american" version it had its origin in super sentai, still ya know that when series started to become repetitive and boring power ranges got saved a lot of times thanks to Bulk & Skull popularity, for a short time they became the pillars of rating, why do you think they are only characters that lasted so long in the series? and would had lasted longer if the guy that acted Skull hadnt decided to go and finish his studies, this epic duo has Superman named in one of their songs


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## Azrael Finalstar (Jan 22, 2010)

realmathena1 said:


> Is Goku or any DBZ thing in an official Bulk & Skull theme song?


They are on robot chicken.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 22, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Here's a question for you. How many get famous for doing DC roles? Not many, since most actors are already well known or famous. Now, how many do you suppose became famous due to roles as playing voices in DBZ and/or other anime series? I can tell you; A Lot. There are tons of people who had previously done pretty minor voice roles in American shows and cartoons and weren't really recognized until they started doing voices for Anime characters, either in anime itself or their game genres, sometimes both.



wow thats a load of shit


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## Roronoa Zoro (Jan 22, 2010)

I Like Batman over Superman, but between Superman and Goku its Superman in pop and in a fight Goku


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## Rashou (Jan 22, 2010)

Darth Nihilus said:


> Uh, Supes has been around since the 30s



40*+* years. DB has been around since 1984- Superman's first appearance is 1938, according to Wiki, so that means it's like a 46 year difference. Anyway, point is Supes had a great head start.



Sazen Susanoo said:


> I Like Batman over Superman, but between Superman and Goku its Superman in pop and *in a fight Goku*



RUN MAN, BEFORE THE OBD SEES YOU!


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## Veranke Kuchiki (Jan 22, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Here's a question for you. How many get famous for doing DC roles? Not many, since most actors are already well known or famous. Now, how many do you suppose became famous due to roles as playing voices in DBZ and/or other anime series? I can tell you; A Lot. There are tons of people who had previously done pretty minor voice roles in American shows and cartoons and weren't really recognized until they started doing voices for Anime characters, either in anime itself or their game genres, sometimes both.



So, hmmm...
Do names like Christopher Reeve, Christian Bale, Linda Carter, Jack Nicholson and Ryan Reynolds ring a bell in you?

Which voice actors are you speaking of? Maybe only in U.S.A., here, voice actors barely do work outside the dubbing...lol.


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## Knight (Jan 22, 2010)

Superman breed hope and justice also he became a phenomenon among Scientist that study him. Several words where invent by his comics such as Brainiac. In the 30s he inspired many people down in the slums to fight for the American way during depression. him dying out would be the death of a patriotic symbol of America.

Goku was famous for inspiring out animes of the like, but Superman defined a Nation and its values


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## Knight (Jan 22, 2010)

Veranke Kuchiki said:


> So, hmmm...
> Do names like Christopher Reeve, Christian Bale, Linda Carter, Jack Nicholson and Ryan Reynolds ring a bell in you?
> 
> Which voice actors are you speaking of? Maybe only in U.S.A., here, voice actors barely do work outside the dubbing...lol.



It doesn't matter since Raigen doesn't get the fact that popularity will never beat something that became a symbol.


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## Raigen (Jan 22, 2010)

A lot of people forget that Transformers, Thundercats, and really a lot of old toons that people watched back in the day, were all ANIME or animation done by Japanese animators in Japan. And you know what? Back in its day, Thundercats was the highest rated Cartoon on the air doing even better than both G.I. Joe AND Transformers.


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## Knight (Jan 22, 2010)

Raigen said:


> A lot of people forget that Transformers, Thundercats, and really a lot of old toons that people watched back in the day, were all ANIME or animation done by Japanese animators in Japan. And you know what? Back in its day, Thundercats was the highest rated Cartoon on the air doing even better than both G.I. Joe AND Transformers.


And this has something to do with Superman being a symbol for nation while Goku only pop status how?


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## Raigen (Jan 22, 2010)

It's not about being an icon. Frankly, if you ever decided to look, Anime/Manga chars are so absurdly popular in Japan that they have no need for any one character, fictional or not, to define them. Anime is incredibly diverse, far more than American comics will ever be. Superman is just an illegal alien who grew up on a farm and just happened to be made an Icon for America because of some really fucked up times. Superman was designed to be that way, so he never really transcended beyond what he was made out to be.

Here's another thing. How many Comic (and I mean just comic) based conventions are there in a year? A dozen? Two? Well, for Anime/Manga, there's over 200 such conventions world wide in a year.


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## strongarm85 (Jan 22, 2010)

Rashou said:


> RUN MAN, BEFORE THE OBD SEES YOU!



Too late.


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## Chaosgod777 (Jan 22, 2010)

superman its over there since the world war ... toriyama was starting DB like when? 80s or some?


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## Chaosgod777 (Jan 22, 2010)

Ben Grimm said:


> Turkish Superman Movie.
> 
> [Youtube]Yg8OXdDFWm0[/Youtube]



by the way i think i just got a new favorite movie


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## Fang (Jan 22, 2010)

I like Goku better than Superman but I'll concede that Superman is more well known on average globally and internationally than him in general. Goku's massively well known and recongized as a household figure or name in Eastern Asia, not just Japan, but Superman is better on average around the world.

In this Superman beats Goku.


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## Knight (Jan 22, 2010)

Raigen said:


> It's not about being an icon. Superman is just an illegal alien who grew up on a farm and just happened to be made an Icon for America because of some really fucked up times. Superman was designed to be that way, so he never really transcended beyond what he was made out to be.
> 
> .



I took the liberty of deleting the crappy arguments out. how is being diverse have anything to do with the thread? Nothing, but comics have change a lot recently so I not sure what the fuck your talking about. Durr Thee threads is about the most influential out of the two which your second point that I deleted didn't even answer or had any significance at all because its an opinion. Illegal alien? 

Maybe thanks now the Mexicans and other foriegners can relate to him and despite his origin it didn't change the fact what he represent so your argument here is weak as usual plus he by that example you made made him even more transcending out of his circle because now illegal that hope for liberty can look for superman as that.


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## Chaosgod777 (Jan 22, 2010)

well DC wasnt exactly just epic comics


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## Knight (Jan 22, 2010)

Chaosgod777 said:


> well DC wasnt exactly just epic comics


thanks for bringing a parodist Superman site that isn't even official into the thread. but it was funny.


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## Chaosgod777 (Jan 22, 2010)

that was my point


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## paulatreides0 (Jan 22, 2010)

Raigen said:


> *Superman is just an illegal alien who grew up on a farm*


I'm sorry, I think in all your bullshit you confused SUPERMAN:

for BEANERMAN:


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLKI0FKr-_s[/YOUTUBE]


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 22, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Superman is just an illegal alien who grew up on a farm



What is Goku then? They're both literal aliens afterall.


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## Daiyoukai Ramza (Jan 22, 2010)

Now in session: Non Sequiturs 101, taught by Professor Raigen. Today's lesson is on Superma--sorry, Superhombre.


Please continue, Se?or Raigen.


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## Chaosgod777 (Jan 22, 2010)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> What is Goku then? They're both literal aliens afterall.



goku didnt even went to school... that proves that the awesome of the character doesnt come with his or her education.


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## Sephiroth (Jan 22, 2010)

Superman for sure, even if I don't like anything about him.

I hate characters without flaws.


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## Kurou (Jan 22, 2010)

Raigen said:


> . Superman is just an illegal alien who grew up on a farm



did you just? i know you didn't please tell me you didn't just say this and its a figure of my imagination._*Just*_ an illegal alien? goku is the same damn thing goku's beginning is essentially a carbon copy of superman!the difference is Superman became a symbol of america  because he stood for justice and peace.what does goku stand for? he's just a monkey >___>

why are they even being compared? superman is leagues above him when it comes to who is the most popular.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 22, 2010)

Daiyoukai Ramza said:


> Now in session: Non Sequiturs 101, taught by Professor Raigen. Today's lesson is on Superma--sorry, Superhombre.
> 
> 
> Please continue, Se?or Raigen.



haha oh that brings back memories


also yeah superman is illegal but he;s lived in the country long enough to be qualified as legal..not to mention he was adopted by Americans

making it moot I'm pretty sure the US government..would give him a passport and all if he asked


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## Glued (Jan 22, 2010)

Umm...wasn't Goku also flawless?



Sephiroth said:


> Superman for sure, even if I don't like anything about him.
> 
> I hate characters without flaws.


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## Fang (Jan 22, 2010)

No, Roshi entered the 21st Budokai as Jackie Chun just to teach his students to be humble and not let their talents go their egos or hubris, same again in the 22nd Budokai. And Goku is far from the strongest or most powerful fighter in Dragon Ball anyways.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 22, 2010)

terrible thread


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## Narcissus (Jan 23, 2010)

Honestly, both characters annoyed me to a certain level. They both have their idiosyncrasies that could just be outright irritating and there are characters from both series (DC and DB) who were more likable.

Anyway, this thread really needs to be locked.



TWF said:


> And Goku is far from the strongest or most powerful fighter in Dragon Ball anyways.



Superman is not the most powerful being in DC either.


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## Endless Mike (Jan 23, 2010)

Everyone knows who Superman is. In fact I think his S symbol was the most recognized symbol in the world at one time. How this is actually up for debate is beyond me.

Really I think the only fictional characters that can compete with Superman for recognizability are mythological characters like Hercules, then maybe Sherlock Holmes and some others.

EDIT: I just thought, Santa Claus would also probably qualify

BTW, the only people who say Superman is boring because he's invincible and has no flaws have obviously never read any comics featuring him.


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## Judas (Jan 23, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Everyone knows who Superman is. In fact I think his S symbol was the most recognized symbol in the world at one time. How this is actually up for debate is beyond me.
> 
> Really I think the only fictional characters that can compete with Superman for recognizability are mythological characters like Hercules, then maybe Sherlock Holmes and some others.
> 
> ...


*

*

That never ceases to amaze me.


----------



## Sephiroth (Jan 23, 2010)

Ben Grimm said:


> Umm...wasn't Goku also flawless?


I wouldn't say Goku was, but I don't like him much either.




Endless Mike said:


> BTW, the only people who say Superman is boring because he's invincible and has no flaws have obviously never read any comics featuring him.



I have, and I mean character flaws, which with most writers, he has none.

It's always nice to see Mr.Perfect get knocked around by Lobo or Darkseid.:ho


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## Kurou (Jan 23, 2010)

I feel like raigen took a shit on my childhood  

I'll never forgive him >_________________>


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## realmathena1 (Jan 23, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> US government..would give him a passport and all if he asked



The US goverment would hand itself to superman if he asked....... in an energic way


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## Endless Mike (Jan 23, 2010)

Sephiroth said:


> I have, and I mean character flaws, which with most writers, he has none.
> 
> It's always nice to see Mr.Perfect get knocked around by Lobo or Darkseid.



You should read the current New Krypton arc, he has to deal with a lot being torn between two cultures and being distrusted and such.


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## Piekage (Jan 23, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Which doesn't mean anything to me since most of them are American and who grew up on Superman. Goku has numerous themes from various Japanese artists/musicans and music instructors, but do they get noted here? No. Why? Not American.



Because we have no idea they exist? If you want something to get acknowledged, why not post it and raise awareness? I'm sure it's obvious based on what site we're on that we're open to none American based media.



> Here's a question for you. How many get famous for doing DC roles? Not many, since most actors are already well known or famous. Now, how many do you suppose became famous due to roles as playing voices in DBZ and/or other anime series? I can tell you; A Lot. There are tons of people who had previously done pretty minor voice roles in American shows and cartoons and weren't really recognized until they started doing voices for Anime characters, either in anime itself or their game genres, sometimes both.



None of this proves Goku is more popular than Superman. 

Do you have any proof of this information?

Plenty of DC voice actors were made popular because of their voice work in the DCAU. I believe someone has already listed examples.



> Here's another thing. How many Comic (and I mean just comic) based conventions are there in a year? A dozen? Two? Well, for Anime/Manga, there's over 200 such conventions world wide in a year.


And yet, Superman is still more popular than Goku. Strange, considering how many Anime based Cons there are when compared to Comics. And there are Comic conventions sceduled this year.


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## Endless Mike (Jan 23, 2010)

I thought a lot of conventions covered both anime and comic books.


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## Lucaniel (Jan 23, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> You should read the current New Krypton arc, he has to deal with a lot being torn between two cultures and being distrusted and such.



I always think that people who feel Superman is a bad character because he isn't an alcoholic, overly violent, introverted and insecure, bad-tempered or the like are missing the point. 

For me, he's an ideal as much as a character.

Also:


*Spoiler*: __


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## Endless Mike (Jan 23, 2010)

That's Hitman, I remember him


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 23, 2010)

Yep, Hitman #34, 'Of Thee I Sing'.

Garth Ennis


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## Veranke Kuchiki (Jan 23, 2010)

Raigen said:


> It's not about being an icon. Frankly, if you ever decided to look, Anime/Manga chars are so absurdly popular in Japan that they have no need for any one character, fictional or not, to define them. Anime is incredibly diverse, far more than American comics will ever be. Superman is just an illegal alien who grew up on a farm and just happened to be made an Icon for America because of some really fucked up times. Superman was designed to be that way, so he never really transcended beyond what he was made out to be.



Oh, and that's why Hulk, Spider-Man and the X-Men had manga based on them?
That's why Nobuhiro Watsuki based some of his character's designs on the X-Men, Punisher, Spawn and many others?
So, isn't Goku an alien who became an analogue of Superman? Regarding diversity on comics...i guess people like Alan Moore, Warren Ellis, Garth Ennis, Jill Thompson, Joss Whedon and some others would like to talk to you...
BTW, if they have no need for foreign characters, fictional or not; why people lik Rumiko Takahashi, Nobuhiro Watsuki and Masakazu Katsura admitted to being inspired by comic book characters to create characters like InuYasha and his gang, a lot of Rurouni Kenshin characters or the goddamn Zetman?



			
				Raigen said:
			
		

> Here's another thing. How many Comic (and I mean just comic) based conventions are there in a year? A dozen? Two? Well, for Anime/Manga, there's over 200 such conventions world wide in a year.



How many of them can compare to the Comic-con?
BTW, you never answered about my question on voice actors...



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> BTW, the only people who say Superman is boring because he's invincible and has no flaws have obviously never read any comics featuring him.



Indeed, my friend. Some people here need to read For the Man Who Has Everything, Distant Fires and Kingdom Come.


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## Clay Man Gumby (Jan 23, 2010)

Goku, 

Atleast he isn't struggling to outdo Wonder Woman in comic sales these days. 

World of New Krypton heh.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jan 23, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Anime is incredibly diverse, far more than American comics *will ever be.*



I call ridiculous bullshit on this.


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## Endless Mike (Jan 23, 2010)

It's Raigen. Ridiculous bullshit is practically guaranteed every time he posts.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Jan 23, 2010)

Comic Book Guy said:


> I call ridiculous bullshit on this.


Wouldn't they have abotuthe same amount of variance?


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 23, 2010)

TWF said:


> what exactly does "trascendental" mean?



highest rep of course.

Superdick is clearly a blenderite.


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## Banhammer (Jan 23, 2010)

> Japan that they have no need for any one character, fictional or not, to define them



Hahahahahahahahaha

From TvTropes, the idiot hero on anime

    *  Ash from Pokémon.
          o Similarly to Ash, considering they're based off the same character, Red, from Pokemon Special.
                + Red, like Ash, got over it, but considerably quicker. Gold, on the other hand, is lucky he's a Determinator, or he'd actually be dead.

    * Kazuma from S-CRY-ed. He is more philosophical than most examples of this trope, and prefers to think of himself as "hands-on" than stupid.
    * Luffy from One Piece.
          o Arguably, most (if not all) of the male Straw Hats period. Even Oda lampshades this in a SBS.
                + And they're all arguably faking it. 
    * Flint from Flint the Time Detective.
    * Bit Cloud from Zoids: New Century Zero.
    * Takuya from Digimon Frontier.
          o Preceded by Taichi and Daisuke; succeeded by Masaru.
          o Taichi and Daisuke, however, were more realistic than most examples of this trope, and matured as the series progressed. They also seemed closer to their actual ages than most of the other kids: both are eleven in the beginning of Digimon Adventure and Digimon Adventure 02. The only reason they ever seem like Idiot Heroes is because the rest of the characters are startlingly mature for their ages.
          o Also, the whole Western-featured Idiot Hero and Japanese-featured Lancer seems to have been averted in both Taichi's and Daisuke's case. Yamato (Lancer to Taichi) and Takeru (one of the two Lancers to Daisuke) are both part-French, and it is they who are blonde and blue-eyed instead.
          o It's safe to assume that almost every incarnation of Digimon has a leader/protagionist who is an Idiot Hero.
                + Takato would take exception, he has the personality type but is also rather Genre Savvy. 
          o This troper disagrees about Takuya. He's much more mature than the leaders in 01 and 02. 
    * Louie of Rune Soldier Louie — the despair of his adventuring buddies. The priestess who was directly ordered by her God to follow Louie as her personal Hero constantly cried "This is not my will!" and has no faith in his heroism until the final story arc.
    * Kamina from Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann embodies idiot heroism to a degree rarely seen, perfectly happy to run off a cliff brandishing a sword in an attempt to fight an enemy in a giant robot, and believing that sheer bloody minded determination can make up for any deficiency in skills or knowledge. A character-defining moment is when he stabs his Humongous Mecha with Simon's smaller drill-equipped mecha in an effort to combine them. If his universe didn't run on Rule Of Cool, that would have been rather awkward, especially since the thing almost impaled his head. Basically, the only thing that saves him is Genre Savvy. Alas, Kamina proved to be Too Dumb To Live, making an accidental Heroic Sacrifice in episode 8.
          o How dare you say that he was Too Dumb To Live, his death was the most awesome heroic and cool things ever! He was not being dumb, it was a Heroic Sacrifice that saved the Dai-Gurren Brigade.
                + In Kamina's defense, he's actually a fairly intelligent guy, but is acting in a way that will motivate Simon to suceed. oops w00t. 
    * Usagi from Sailor Moon is a rare female example, especially in the early series since she matures and becomes The Messiah.
    * ... And her evolutionary descendant, Nozomi from Yes! Precure 5, is an example as well.
    * Excel from Excel Saga is both a female example and a parody.
    * Goku from Dragon Ball, though this was partly due to Character Exaggeration in the anime.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 23, 2010)

o Other factors include him suffering massive head trauma as a baby (which is basically the biggest reason why he didn't end up a villain), growing up isolated from the outside world until he was at least twelve years old, and his only education to speak of was less than a year of learning basic reading and math from a perverted hermit. 
    * Yusuke, being what appears to be an Expy of Goku with a Jerkass Delinquent layer over him, also falls under this trope. He is severely, SEVERELY Book Dumb; he got a bloody 12 on a science test. Kuwabara is worse; he got a 7.
    * Naruto in Naruto, though it's primarily Book Dumb, and he's a lot better after the Time Skip... at least strategy-wise.
          o There's around one Idiot Hero per squad. Kiba and Choji are straight examples, while Lee and Guy are arguably a parody of this. 
    * Ikki from Air Gear.
    * Kid Muscle from Ultimate Muscle.
    * Tamaki Suoh from Ouran High School Host Club is so dumb, he concludes that his possessiveness towards, his nervousness around and wanting to kiss the first real female friend he's ever had is because he wants to be her... get ready for it... father. His Nakama knows he is dumb, but assumed this was just a metaphor. Then they learned that no, he really thinks that is logical. Even though Tamaki's hobby and job is entertaining women, so he knows what romance is. He's the school King of romance.
          o Luckily, he isn't really the King of the Host Club. We all know who the Shadow King is.
          o However, true to form, his idiocy ends up making him become The Messiah, helping all the others in the Host Club from their social problems.
          o Also his idiocity only relates to relationships, which is probably explained away by his own family history. He's actually second in his class, right after Kyoya. 
    * Gourry Gabriev from Slayers is pretty much a personification of this trope and is (as is all of Slayers) at least partly parody. He doesn't know basic facts about... well, pretty much anything other than food and fighting, and is prone to forgetting minor details like the names of his best friends, and that time a few months back when they saved the universe in an epic battle of good and evil. But his combat skills are such that he can assess the skills of other characters accurately just by glancing at them and can hold his own in a fight against everything up to deities when he has his legendary Sword of Light. Word Of God states that in addition to his skill with the sword, he's got the innate talent to be a truly frightening sorcerer — but he's too dumb to remember the necessary magic words.
          o Gourry subverted the trope, in a way, in the one time throughout the entire series that he showed any signs of intellect; when Xellos is finally revealed to be a Mazoku, good old Gourry is shocked to hear that no one else had figured it out. He had known since the beginning.
          o Speaking of Slayers, this is somewhat subverted in one episode ("Geoffry's Knighthood") with Geoffry, whose mother employes Lina and Naga to accompany him on his quests. Although Geoffry is an "idiot", he fails somewhat on the "hero" — all of the badass fighting is actually done by his mother ("disguised" by a bag over her head). However, the final Boss is genuinely terrified when Geoffry appears...
                + That's got little to do with Geoffry, though. As one comes to expect of Slayers, there's a new layer of parody here. The main boss is Geoffry's Dad!! And the reason for the fear is eminently logical; the man KNOWS his maniac of a wife will be by to defend Geoffry. That reaction is pure channeling of Harry Mudd, my friends. 
          o Gourry also subverts this trope in the original novel series where he is far more capable and his ditziness is closer to ObfuscatingStupidity. It's the anime series that flanderized this idiot trait to max.
          o Truth be told, Gourry isn't quite as stupid as he appears at first glance, even in the anime — it's actually a borderline Justified Trope. In pretty much every official bit of background detail, it's explicitly stated that, while he does have some memory problems, the main problem is he mingles a happy-go-lucky nature with a really screwed up/simple (depending on how you look at it) set of priorities: all he really cares about is fighting and where the next meal is coming from. Old enemies and absent comrades just aren't important enough to stress over. Gourry's ignorance of things that his allies know is also justifiable on two levels. On the meta level, this makes him the perfect tool to draw out expositions so that the viewers know what's going on. In the universe himself, Gourry's traveling companions are all professional magic users, one of whom is a trained sorceress, another is a princess and trained sorceress, and the third is the ex-pupil (and descendant) of one of the most powerful and learned wizards in the whole damn world. Gourry, by comparison, is a simple mercenary from the backwater desert country of Elmekia. Naturally, they're going to know far more about demons, spells, enchanted artifacts and other such occult lore. They don't tend to cover such material in military camps. 
    * Invoked recently in the Mahou Sensei Negima manga. The hero Negi Springfield is intelligent... intelligent enough to worry and hesitate. The Rival has stated that Negi needs more "idiocy" to be a better fighter (Negi goes on to ask his trainer how to be an idiot, like him). Compounding on this, according to flashbacks, Negi's legendary father Nagi appears to be a textbook example of an Idiot Hero. (For example: instead of memorizing his combat spells, he wades into battle with crib notes in one hand.)
          o Jack Rakan probably also counts. Maybe.
          o Kotaro definitely counts; he even prides himself on it. 
    * Goku from Saiyuki. The most recent manga chapters suggest that he is slowly maturing, however.
    * Azuma from Yakitate Japan, though he's more of a Genius Ditz.
    * Arguably, Shu from Now And Then Here And There.
    * Jil, from The Tower of Druaga. In battle, he's been known to do exactly the opposite of what his more experienced party mates consider the most sensible tactics. He's also one of the only characters on the quest for the purpose of slaying Druaga, and has been called a "Justice Freak". Comes complete with an Aloof Big Brother.
    * Arika Yumemiya from Mai-Otome, although in her case it's more a matter of being inexperienced with the world. She gains some confidence and competence as the series goes on, but while almost everyone else in Mai-Otome Zwei has become Older And Wiser, Arika lapses back into Idiot Hero mode.
          o Which is only one of the reasons why Zwei is subject to DisContinuity by the fans.


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## Banhammer (Jan 23, 2010)

Idiot Hero on Comics

    *  Flaming Carrot from the eponymous Flaming Carrot Comics, actually described in his origin story as "quintessentially retarded". Surprisingly, for some people he's actually a mentor and on occasion it even gives him the "superpower" of Zen Stupidity.
    * Enemies of the Green Lantern Corps attempted to discredit them by giving counterfeit power rings to several idiots. One of those idiots, a G'newtain named G'nort, uncovered their plot and helped defeat them. He was rewarded with membership in the real Green Lantern Corps.
          o His Batman The Brave And The Bold version takes this even farther, as he got his (admittedly unimportant) job in the corps because of his uncle and could only remember The Oath with a cheat sheet. 
    * The Tick 



Yup, three non factors.


So diverse the manga world. Sooooooooooooo diverse.


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## Lucaniel (Jan 24, 2010)

Comic Book Guy said:


> I call ridiculous bullshit on this.



Raigen is yet another one of those people who delude themselves into foreign = deep.

Sandman, alone, is more diverse than nearly all of anime/manga.


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## Raigen (Jan 24, 2010)

Your own self-delusions about me are almost laughable. The fact I'm born/raised American doesn't mean I'm going "Superman da winna!" like every other flaming fanboy out there. I grew up on the old Superman, Super Friends and all that. And I tell ya, it just stayed as old, boring crap that never really got interesting and the highest point in DC comics during the 80's was JLI when Bats KTFO'd Guy Gardner with one punch.

You want something good, you go Anime/Manga. You think because Anime/Manga did versions of American comic stuff it means we inspired it? That is just pathetic. Fuck our damn companies asked them to do it. And what do we get? We got *AWESOMENESS!!* You know why? Because they're better at it than we are. They took Witchblade, redefined the story, and made her absolutely delicious, in both the anime and manga, which're both fundamentally different. Have you not even seen for yourselves that anime/manga is becoming more and more popular every day?

And no, Conventions don't cover both Comics and Manga. Anime/Manga is its own genre. You might see people dressed as Comic characters at anime conventions, but that's cause they want to be dicks and can't afford to make a costume based on anime/manga characters. You are not a true Otaku until you do. Anime is taking over the world. It's a damn fact. Every time you see an animated comic movie now, it's all done by Japanese animators. Wonder Woman, Gotham Knight, Green Lantern: First Flight, Hulk vs., etc etc. You think we're that good? You'd be surprised at how wrong you are.

There are tons of anime/manga series that have depth to them, not all are designed that way. You'd have to actually get off your stereotypical asses and read different series to actually gain an understanding for how things're done. And btw, "Sandman: The Dream Eaters", joint work by Neil Gaiman and Amano Yoshitaka, the creator/designer behind the Final Fantasy Series, Gatchaman (aka G-Force, aka Battle of the Planets), Vampire Hunter D, and various other works/series.


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## paulatreides0 (Jan 24, 2010)

Superman has been around since *1938*

Goku has been around since...1985?

Furthermore, Superman has come to symbolize American culture and ideals: telling the truth, intergrity, goodness, charity, strength (both moral, and personality wise), character, uniqueness, unconditional love/care, and freedom/liberty, and justice.

Goku...meh.......

Superman has been adapted into every form of hero possible. He helped in 9/11 in comics, he fought Nazis and Commies, ANYTHIING and EVERYTHING major that's happened in the US since he came about HE has taken part in.

Goku....nothing...........

Superman is a SYMBOL of American culture. He's a symbol of what a good American could and should be. Goku's just a character who's strong. Superman has a legacy and will be remembered for ages and is a PART OF AMERICAN *CULTURE*. Goku...nowhere near as significant


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## Sen (Jan 24, 2010)

I think it depends on the country, Goku would probably be more famous/transcendental in some Asian countries where anime is so huge, but in America and a lot of the west it would definitely be Superman since that is kind of all over, as opposed to Goku who is only known in anime.


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## paulatreides0 (Jan 24, 2010)

Sen said:


> I think it depends on the country, Goku would probably be more famous/transcendental in some Asian countries where anime is so huge, but in America and a lot of the west it would definitely be Superman since that is kind of all over, as opposed to Goku who is only known in anime.



overall Superman is FARRRR more wellknown worldwide


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## Glued (Jan 24, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Your own self-delusions about me are almost laughable. The fact I'm born/raised American doesn't mean I'm going "Superman da winna!" like every other flaming fanboy out there. I grew up on the old Superman, Super Friends and all that. And I tell ya, it just stayed as old, boring crap that never really got interesting and the highest point in DC comics during the 80's was JLI when Bats KTFO'd Guy Gardner with one punch.
> 
> You want something good, you go Anime/Manga. You think because Anime/Manga did versions of American comic stuff it means we inspired it? That is just pathetic. Fuck our damn companies asked them to do it. And what do we get? We got *AWESOMENESS!!* You know why? Because they're better at it than we are. They took Witchblade, redefined the story, and made her absolutely delicious, in both the anime and manga, which're both fundamentally different. Have you not even seen for yourselves that anime/manga is becoming more and more popular every day?
> 
> ...



Calm down Raigen, I don't know how this thread became Japan vs America, manga vs comics, anime vs cartoons.

I do know that Superman has Indian versions and Turkey made their own Superman movie. TURKEY!

Let me repost Toriyama's own parody of Superman

[Youtube]ccVIighp4BI[/Youtube]

The point of this thread is about icons, how big Son Goku outside of Japan?


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## Jesusfreak (Jan 24, 2010)

I wasn't alive then...but does anyone remember what happened when supes died....people wore red and black all over the world, that sort of stuff


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## Lucaniel (Jan 24, 2010)

So according to Raigen Superman-voters have never read a manga with any depth

I guess Berserk, Monster, Vagabond, 20th Century Boys, Slam Dunk, REAL, Pluto and the lot are shallow as fuck then.


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## Emperor Joker (Jan 24, 2010)

Wow Raigen we're being a trifle bitter and being a raving lunatic today aren't we now. Seriously chill the fuck out, this is why Supes Vs. Goku is banned all it turns into is a clusterfuck.

Tell me Raigen is Until Death Do Us Part shallow then, because I like that, what about Full Metal Alchemist is that shallow. I like Manga plenty but that doesn't mean that Goku is more pupular than Supes is when Supes is actually known the world over.


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## Lucaniel (Jan 24, 2010)

Raigen, have you read these comics, for starters?

Watchmen
Sandman
Lucifer
Transmetropolitan
Preacher
Planetary
Fables

Because between Sandman and almost any other one of those you'd have more variety and depth then any and all manga.


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## Emperor Joker (Jan 24, 2010)

Lucaniel said:


> Raigen, have you read these comics, for starters?
> 
> Watchmen
> Sandman
> ...



Have you read Fables too. any of those on that list are excellent reads.


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## Narcissus (Jan 24, 2010)

This is why I said early on that this is a terrible thread that should be locked. It's quickly devolving into Anime/Manga vs. Comics. And besides, we already know Raigen is an idiot with no credibility.


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## Lucaniel (Jan 24, 2010)

Emperor Joker said:


> Have you read Fables too. any of those on that list are excellent reads.



Dammit, I knew I was missing something, thanks for the reminder

I'm not up to date on it but I've read a fair bit of it.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jan 24, 2010)

Raigen at the end of the day Superman is known globally by even the older generations. Goku is the least popular here compared to the likes of Superman and Batman on a global scale. You're just being bitter and flaming now. This is also not comics vs anime/manga, both comic book and anime/manga creators do interact with each other and try to exchange their styles so to speak. Fiction is either good or bad not East vs West and what's wrong if people want to dress up as comic book characters?

No one wants to be a true Otaku, that is the last thing anyone wants to be labelled as.


----------



## God (Jan 24, 2010)




----------



## Darth Nihilus (Jan 24, 2010)

Having a discussion about one of the sickle minded who needs no attention baffles my mind.


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## paulatreides0 (Jan 24, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Raigen at the end of the day Superman is known globally by even the older generations *and children*. Goku is the least popular here compared to the likes of Superman and Batman on a global scale. You're just being bitter and flaming now. This is also not comics vs anime/manga, both comic book and anime/manga creators do interact with each other and try to exchange their styles so to speak. Fiction is either good or bad not East vs West and what's wrong if people want to dress up as comic book characters?
> 
> No one wants to be a true Otaku, that is the last thing anyone wants to be labelled as.



corrected for accuracy


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## God (Jan 24, 2010)




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## God (Jan 24, 2010)




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## Azrael Finalstar (Jan 24, 2010)

Lucaniel said:


> Raigen, have you read these comics, for starters?
> 
> Watchmen
> Sandman
> ...


 I should neg this, but i won't. They are deep and have variety and are all rather cool to be sure, but what you said forgets classics on the manga/anime side.


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## God (Jan 24, 2010)

Does any classic manga have this?



Thought so


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## Endless Mike (Jan 24, 2010)

Raigen, you do know that an "otaku" is considered to be a socially inept nerd who is unhealthily obsessed with fictional characters and has no life at all, right?

Of course that probably describes you perfectly.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 24, 2010)

hadomaru said:


> I should neg this, but i won't.



How nice, considering all the times I decided not to neg you when I could have.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Jan 24, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> How nice, considering all the times I decided not to neg you when I could have.


Well, it would be rather hypocritcal of me, considering i don't neg. Well, i have 2-3 times, but yeah.


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## Endless Mike (Jan 24, 2010)

Trust me, if you're going to neg anyone, Raigen is the way to go.


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## Piekage (Jan 24, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Your own self-delusions about me are almost laughable. The fact I'm born/raised American doesn't mean I'm going "Superman da winna!" like every other flaming fanboy out there. I grew up on the old Superman, Super Friends and all that. And I tell ya, it just stayed as old, boring crap that never really got interesting and the highest point in DC comics during the 80's was JLI when Bats KTFO'd Guy Gardner with one punch.
> 
> You want something good, you go Anime/Manga. You think because Anime/Manga did versions of American comic stuff it means we inspired it? That is just pathetic. Fuck our damn companies asked them to do it. And what do we get? We got *AWESOMENESS!!* You know why? Because they're better at it than we are. They took Witchblade, redefined the story, and made her absolutely delicious, in both the anime and manga, which're both fundamentally different. Have you not even seen for yourselves that anime/manga is becoming more and more popular every day?



Every single thing in these paragraphs is opinionated. I personally think Anime!Witchblade sucked ass, and that's well before I read the original.



> And no, Conventions don't cover both Comics and Manga. Anime/Manga is its own genre. You might see people dressed as Comic characters at anime conventions, but that's cause they want to be dicks and can't afford to make a costume based on anime/manga characters. You are not a true Otaku until you do. Anime is taking over the world. It's a damn fact.* Every time you see an animated comic movie now, it's all done by Japanese animators. Wonder Woman*, Gotham Knight, *Green Lantern: First Flight, Hulk vs., etc etc.* You think we're that good? You'd be surprised at how wrong you are.



Got any proof on the bolded?

True Otaku? Who are you to judge someone else's love for anime? What the hell is a true otaku? I love the hell out of anime and manga, but I would never cosplay. I got nothing against it, it's just something I don't want to do. That certainly doesn't mean I don't really like anime, if that's what your implying.



> *There are tons of anime/manga series that have depth to them, not all are designed that way. You'd have to actually get off your stereotypical asses and read different series to actually gain an understanding for how things're done.* And btw, "Sandman: The Dream Eaters", joint work by Neil Gaiman and Amano Yoshitaka, the creator/designer behind the Final Fantasy Series, Gatchaman (aka G-Force, aka Battle of the Planets), Vampire Hunter D, and various other works/series.



I could say the same.


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## Abigail (Jan 24, 2010)

Raigen said:


> You are not a true Otaku until you do.



No one who actually knows what that word really means wants to be a true Otaku.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jan 24, 2010)

Raigen said:


> I grew up on the old Superman, Super Friends and all that. And I tell ya, it just stayed as old, boring crap that never really got interesting and *the highest point in DC comics during the 80's was JLI when Bats KTFO'd Guy Gardner with one punch.*



*FUCKING.
BULLSHIT.*​
DC Comics
- Arkham Asylum
- Batman: Killing Joke
- Batman: Year One
- Crisis on Infinite Earths
- Dark Knight Returns
- Miller's Ronin
- Moore's Swamp Thing
- Morrison's Animal Man & Doom Patrol
- debut of The Sandman
- Watchmen
- the Wolfman/Perez run on New Teen Titans

For Marvel Comics:
- Byrne's run on Uncanny X-Men
- Claremont's run on Uncanny X-Men
- Miller's run on Daredevil
- Simonson's run on The Mighty Thor

And other comics:
- Maus
- Moore's Miracleman
- V for Vendetta

Highest point in DC Comics during the 80s is Batman punching Guy? *FUCKING BULLSHIT*.

*Comics and manga are the same mediums*. Anime is a video medium. Different mediums have different things going for them, and their own unique potential.

Comics can have just as much depth as anime/manga and has arguably accomplished a lot more in terms of critical acclaim.



> You'd have to actually get off your stereotypical asses and read different series to actually gain an understanding for how things're done.



Take your own bloody advice before you can criticize comics strictly on the DC superhero.

80s is almost 30 bloody years ago. Welcome to the 2000s and the comics with it.


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## Sephiroth (Jan 24, 2010)

Lucaniel said:


> I always think that people who feel Superman is a bad character because he isn't an alcoholic, overly violent, introverted and insecure, bad-tempered or the like are missing the point.
> 
> For me, he's an ideal as much as a character.



Marvel fan, guilty as charged.



Abigail said:


> No one who actually knows what that word really means wants to be a true Otaku.



"true" Otaku.


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## Endless Mike (Jan 24, 2010)

How did you find a picture of Raigen?


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 24, 2010)

Batman punching Guy is fucking awesome though

Making him say sorry is just fuckwin incarnate


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## Azrael Finalstar (Jan 24, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Trust me, if you're going to neg anyone, Raigen is the way to go.


Maybe, but i find him immensely amusing


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 24, 2010)

hadomaru said:


> Maybe, but i find him immensely amusing



So did I once. Now the stupidity running rancid in this place has left me very snide and heartless.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 24, 2010)

I find Jedijohn to be amusing. I find Raigen to be heavily sickle minded.


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## hammer (Jan 24, 2010)

Darth Nihilus said:


> Batman punching Guy is fucking awesome though
> 
> Making him say sorry is just fuckwin incarnate



how about the times the green lanterns  bitch slaped him?


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 24, 2010)

I remember Bruce getting clocked by Hal


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## Knight (Jan 24, 2010)

Raigen needs a shrink.


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## B (Jan 24, 2010)

They both have overly bulged muscles. During their fight they will suddenly experience a vast amount of pain due to several muscle cramps. From a mix of the mass amount of roids they constantly take and the stress from their agony, they both die from cardiac arrest.
So, Kisame wins.


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## Abigail (Jan 24, 2010)

Sephiroth said:


> Marvel fan, guilty as charged.
> 
> 
> 
> "true" Otaku.


He's outside, therefore not a true Otaku.


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## Sephiroth (Jan 24, 2010)

Abigail said:


> He's outside, therefore not a true Otaku.



Otaku's gotta buy food to.


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## hammer (Jan 24, 2010)

Darth Nihilus said:


> I remember Bruce getting clocked by Hal



that makes anyone badass in my book everyone that arc was pissing themselfs when bruce talked then hes like PIMP SLAP and they are like OMFSALKFLAS i almost screamed in the book store when i read it


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## paulatreides0 (Jan 24, 2010)

Sephiroth said:


> Otaku's gotta buy food to.



They survive off of hot pockets, ramen, and ordered food 

True otaku, he not is


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 24, 2010)

hammer said:


> that makes anyone badass in my book everyone that arc was pissing themselfs when bruce talked then hes like PIMP SLAP and they are like OMFSALKFLAS i almost screamed in the book store when i read it


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## Sephiroth (Jan 24, 2010)

paulatreides0 said:


> They survive off of hot pockets, ramen, and ordered food
> 
> True otaku, he not is



True enough, but you can't catch pictures of Otaku in their natural habitat often.


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## Veranke Kuchiki (Jan 24, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Your own self-delusions about me are almost laughable. The fact I'm born/raised American doesn't mean I'm going "Superman da winna!" like every other flaming fanboy out there. I grew up on the old Superman, Super Friends and all that. And I tell ya, it just stayed as old, boring crap that never really got interesting and the highest point in DC comics during the 80's was JLI when Bats KTFO'd Guy Gardner with one punch.



Dude, i'm not even "american", and i like manga more than i like comic books...but we need to recognize that Superman is a goddamn symbol on his own...



			
				Raigen said:
			
		

> You want something good, you go Anime/Manga. You think because Anime/Manga did versions of American comic stuff it means we inspired it? That is just pathetic. Fuck our damn companies asked them to do it. And what do we get? We got *AWESOMENESS!!* You know why? Because they're better at it than we are. They took Witchblade, redefined the story, and made her absolutely delicious, in both the anime and manga, which're both fundamentally different. Have you not even seen for yourselves that anime/manga is becoming more and more popular every day?



I managed to check the first issues of Witchblade...and anime Witchblade is to the original comic book, what DB Evolution is to DB manga.

Awesomeness? Where?
The new "Wolverine anime" looks like a sad mix between Basilisk and some random shonen, Tokusatsu Spider-Man sucked big time, and Spidey manga was a failure that would make Spectacular Spider-Man look mature in comparison.



			
				Raigen said:
			
		

> And no, Conventions don't cover both Comics and Manga.



O RLY?


At least in my country, there is a "Comic book and manga expo", and it's really important...the same can be said for most of cons in Latin America...so, i can't imagine the Comic-Con people saying "please, otaku people get out of the building"...



			
				Raigen said:
			
		

> Anime/Manga is its own genre. You might see people dressed as Comic characters at anime conventions, but that's cause they want to be dicks and can't afford to make a costume based on anime/manga characters. You are not a true Otaku until you do. Anime is taking over the world. It's a damn fact. Every time you see an animated comic movie now, it's all done by Japanese animators. Wonder Woman, Gotham Knight, Green Lantern: First Flight, Hulk vs., etc etc. You think we're that good? You'd be surprised at how wrong you are.



Wow, someone has major otaku complex...



			
				Raigen said:
			
		

> There are tons of anime/manga series that have depth to them, not all are designed that way. You'd have to actually get off your stereotypical asses and read different series to actually gain an understanding for how things're done. And btw, "Sandman: The Dream Eaters", joint work by Neil Gaiman and Amano Yoshitaka, the creator/designer behind the Final Fantasy Series, Gatchaman (aka G-Force, aka Battle of the Planets), Vampire Hunter D, and various other works/series.



Really?
So what's it going to be? Something like Uzumaki, Akira or Dragon's Head compared to the freakin' Watchmen or Hellblazer?
Basilisk compared to Wanted or Punisher Max?
Damn, pal...i'm not even a comic book fan, but i have to recognize that sometimes, stories and characters are way deeper than Neon Genesis Evangelion, Mushishi or Ghost in the Shell...


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## hammer (Jan 24, 2010)

which makes hals slap more epic


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## Banhammer (Jan 24, 2010)

It's so depressing when you see one of these trolls who represent a great segment of society.


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## paulatreides0 (Jan 24, 2010)

Sephiroth said:


> True enough, but you can't catch pictures of Otaku in their natural habitat often.



to do so requires a brave, brave man who is able to stand the horrors of what would stand before him


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## Lina Inverse (Jan 24, 2010)

9 pages


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## Glued (Jan 24, 2010)




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## Lina Inverse (Jan 24, 2010)

"Batman belted him...and I missed it?"


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## hammer (Jan 24, 2010)




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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 24, 2010)




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## Whip Whirlwind (Jan 24, 2010)

Superman, i don't really see how anyone could make an argument otherwise and not be trolling.

However, the goddamn batman owns them both.


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## Platinum (Jan 24, 2010)

So this thread degenerated into Raigen being a biased Otaku.

As to be expected.


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## Banhammer (Jan 24, 2010)

To the dongmobile!


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## Platinum (Jan 24, 2010)

Raigen is always in the dongmobile.

It's his home away from home.


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## Petes12 (Jan 25, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Your own self-delusions about me are almost laughable. The fact I'm born/raised American doesn't mean I'm going "Superman da winna!" like every other flaming fanboy out there. I grew up on the old Superman, Super Friends and all that. And I tell ya, it just stayed as old, boring crap that never really got interesting and the highest point in DC comics during the 80's was JLI when Bats KTFO'd Guy Gardner with one punch.
> 
> You want something good, you go Anime/Manga. You think because Anime/Manga did versions of American comic stuff it means we inspired it? That is just pathetic. Fuck our damn companies asked them to do it. And what do we get? We got *AWESOMENESS!!* You know why? Because they're better at it than we are. They took Witchblade, redefined the story, and made her absolutely delicious, in both the anime and manga, which're both fundamentally different. Have you not even seen for yourselves that anime/manga is becoming more and more popular every day?
> 
> ...



Are you actually trying to say Goku is a better character than... any character at all, ever?


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## Comic Book Guy (Jan 25, 2010)

I believe Raigen is partly arguing that anime/manga _in general_ has more depth than Western comic books.

Which I abso-bloody-fucking-lutely disagree with in the previous page.


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## Whip Whirlwind (Jan 25, 2010)

Comic Book Guy said:


> I believe Raigen is partly arguing that anime/manga _in general_ has more depth than Western comic books.
> 
> Which I abso-bloody-fucking-lutely disagree with in the previous page.



Yea, same here, although admittedly im quite biased, no matter how objective i try to be.

But that has nothing to do with this thread.


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## Platinum (Jan 25, 2010)

Comic Book Guy said:


> I believe Raigen is partly arguing that anime/manga _in general_ has more depth than Western comic books.
> 
> Which I abso-bloody-fucking-lutely disagree with in the previous page.



Any one that has a semi developed brain would realize that comics have at least as much depth if not more than manga.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 25, 2010)

Comic Book Guy said:


> I believe Raigen is partly arguing that anime/manga _in general_ has more depth than Western comic books.
> 
> Which I abso-bloody-fucking-lutely disagree with in the previous page.



i have yet to see...any mangeka

get compared to Howard Tolkien lewis Lovecraft and Disney 

Jack Kirby and steve Dtiko stane lee and some of the old school creators of dc...

have for their contributions..


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## Heavenly King (Jan 25, 2010)

goku has trouble with lifting 40 tons lol. he had to go ssj to lift 40 tons come man. to many moses jrs running around here.. screaming  goku would beat superman


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## Glued (Jan 25, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> goku has trouble with lifting 40 tons lol. he had to go ssj to lift 40 tons come man. to many moses jrs running around here.. screaming  goku would beat superman



And Ben Grimm is class 85, yet we see him knocking down cosmic powered Doctor Doom.

The newest version of Superman can't even push back an asteroid the size of the moon, even with an army of Kyrptonians helping him out.

Comics and Manga are meant to be fun, not scientific.


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## noobthemusical (Jan 25, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> i have yet to see...any mangeka
> 
> get compared to Howard Tolkien lewis Lovecraft and Disney
> 
> ...



Stan Lee has a manga


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## blueblip (Jan 25, 2010)

death1217 said:


> to be honest it depends on where you grew up i grew up in the middle east
> and well anime was shit more popular over there then superman  goku was known to every kid and his parent  when i went to india (home country) i found it was a bit more balanced there but both of them were beaten by pokemon and beyblade


Same story as me bro, born in Dubai, folks from India, but it's the other way round for me. Then again, I was born in 84, and there was no DBZ around back then. But in my family, whether they are still in India or abroad, everyone to a man, woman, aunt, uncle, whatever sort of relation, knows who the hell Supes is. No one has so much as heard of Goku.

Screw that, when Supes and Lois got married, even Indian and Dubai newspapers carried it as a lead story. I mean, the thread ends with that. A comic book character who's fictional marriage is enough to be a leading story in the world's newspapers.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jan 25, 2010)

blueblip said:


> Screw that, when Supes and Lois got married, even Indian and Dubai newspapers carried it as a lead story. I mean, the thread ends with that. A comic book character who's fictional marriage is enough to be a leading story in the world's newspapers.



Not to mention, when he was killed off too.


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## Banhammer (Jan 25, 2010)

Comic Book Guy said:


> I believe Raigen is partly arguing that anime/manga _in general_ has more depth than Western comic books.
> 
> Which I abso-bloody-fucking-lutely disagree with in the previous page.



you know you're the spawn of satan when you force CBG to say fuck


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## Heavenly King (Jan 25, 2010)

Ben Grimm said:


> And Ben Grimm is class 85, yet we see him knocking down cosmic powered Doctor Doom.
> 
> The newest version of Superman can't even push back an asteroid the size of the moon, even with an army of Kyrptonians helping him out.
> 
> Comics and Manga are meant to be fun, not scientific.





didn't he hit doom off guard? i forget if he did or not. that's a good sell i am sure if he went under light speed he would have destroyed it and k.o him self again


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## Lucaniel (Jan 25, 2010)

hadomaru said:


> I should neg this, but i won't. They are deep and have variety and are all rather cool to be sure, but what you said forgets classics on the manga/anime side.



Name ones capable of standing up to Sandman.


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## blueblip (Jan 25, 2010)

^To be fair, Sandman is less of a comic book and more of a work of literature. As in, Sandman is in a different league altogether even when it comes to Western comics. I know staunch non-comic readers who have read Sandman and now swear by it. I mean, they even reject stuff like the Dark Knight Returns with the usual "lol it's just a comic, it's for kids", but swear that Sandman is one of the best works to come out of the 90s.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, there are manga that certainly are of great depth, which set them apart from most Eastern and Western comics and while may not be on par with Sandman, certainly come very close to it.

Osamu Tezuka especially has some brilliant stuff when he delves into the Buddhist view on reincarnation versus immortality. I highly recommend his work "Phoenix" (Hi No Tori for purists), as well as "Buddha". "Phoenix" is like his magum opus, and it really is very brilliant.

Then there is the Korean work known as the Colours Trilogy. While it isn't as good as Phoenix, let alone Sandman, it again is a wonderful work that follows a peasant girl and her widowed mother, and how both of them grow.

If you believe that only Western comics offer great depth, read some of these series and you will see that it's actually present in the East. It's just that these works are either older (Phoenix was written in the 60s I think) or like the Colour Trilogy, they are not popular (I think).


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## Comic Book Guy (Jan 25, 2010)

blueblip said:


> ^To be fair, Sandman is less of a comic book and more of a work of literature. As in, Sandman is in a different league altogether even when it comes to Western comics. I know staunch non-comic readers who have read Sandman and now swear by it. I mean, they even reject stuff like the Dark Knight Returns with the usual "lol it's just a comic, it's for kids", but swear that Sandman is one of the best works to come out of the 90s.



Maus had the same sort of regard back then.

It won a Pulitzer Prize Special Award (Letters) in 1992 but no one would look at it and say "it's a comic book" and acknowledge it winning a Pulitzer.


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## Endless Mike (Jan 26, 2010)

Ben Grimm said:


> And Ben Grimm is class 85, yet we see him knocking down cosmic powered Doctor Doom.
> 
> The newest version of Superman can't even push back an asteroid the size of the moon, even with an army of Kyrptonians helping him out.
> 
> Comics and Manga are meant to be fun, not scientific.



First of all, it was bigger than the moon. Second of all, it was surrounded by some kind of weird energy field. Please stop ignoring context.


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## Girl I don't care (Jan 26, 2010)

superman obviously, goku is for the 0.01% of the worlds population that read manga.


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## hammer (Jan 26, 2010)

superman is a troll and kills lous for the lulz goku aint got nothing on that


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## OutlawJohn (Jan 26, 2010)

I've been to Africa several times, they haven't heard of a Goku. Superman is as well known as America, if you know the United States exists, you know Superman exists. But I gotta love that Goku.


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## Heavenly King (Feb 16, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> First of all, it was bigger than the moon. Second of all, it was surrounded by some kind of weird energy field. Please stop ignoring context.




so i was right it wasn't a regular moon


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## Mappa Douji (Feb 16, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> so i was right it wasn't a regular moon



At the same time we don't know how strong the energy field was so it's a rather dead end for the GvS over at MVC.


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## Platinum (Feb 16, 2010)

Why revive this thread?


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## liquid spiral (Feb 16, 2010)

This is why superman wins


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## Mappa Douji (Feb 16, 2010)

Platinum said:


> Why revive this thread?



HK has been having problems with Moses over at MVC on the Goku vs Superman thread. lol.


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## Heavenly King (Feb 17, 2010)

Chibi_Hao said:


> HK has been having problems with Moses over at MVC on the Goku vs Superman thread. lol.





you mean laughing at moses and morpheus random made up lies.

moses

It’s, quite simply, because he can, dumbass. Guys like Superman, Thor and Silver Surfer are all Frieza-level beings. Goku’s many times more powerful than this.

this is the same guy who said he reads comics


What morpheus said
You have yet to prove that even Odin can tank a destructo disk. I’m not making more arguements/posting more scans until you refute it. If you can’t, the DBZ side simply wins. As for your debating skill, please let Thanos or herald take over. They’re actually incoherent and they have valid points sometimes unlike you.


this is what people of mvc vs forums have to deal with


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## Darth Nihilus (Feb 17, 2010)

This thread being open is like the mods wanting to see this turn out to be an actual vs. debate between both Goku and Superman, hoping that both sides of the argument will debate calm and collectedly.


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## Mappa Douji (Feb 17, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> you mean laughing at moses and morpheus random made up lies.
> 
> moses
> 
> ...


I think you misunderstand me when I say problems. lol. I didn't mean you have problems finding arguments, as I've seen scans, but it's more you vs two people who think Goku is a casual galaxy buster or something. Kind of hard to be double teamed. Even if you're correct. I also luled at the Odin thing.


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## Will Smith (Feb 17, 2010)

Wasn't Goku's back story influence by Supermans? Yeah, it's pretty obvious who is more iconic. . .This thread is retarded.



Lucaniel said:


> Because between Sandman and almost any other one of those you'd have more variety and depth then any and all manga.



Your not really that far off when you talk about manga, but japanese comics have another side as well; Gekiga for instance.


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## Heavenly King (Feb 17, 2010)

Chibi_Hao said:


> I think you misunderstand me when I say problems. lol. I didn't mean you have problems finding arguments, as I've seen scans, but it's more you vs two people who think Goku is a casual galaxy buster or something. Kind of hard to be double teamed. Even if you're correct. I also luled at the Odin thing.





i am use to people trying to attack me from all sides lol. (no homo) hao i think it's time to use more saint seiya and the getbackers in mvc more


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## Lucaniel (Feb 17, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> i am use to people trying to attack me from all sides lol. (no homo)



oh lol

why would you even say "no homo" no-one would try taking advantage of that


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## Nimademe (Feb 17, 2010)

Lucaniel said:


> oh lol
> 
> why would you even say "no homo" no-one would try taking advantage of that



Peter Noone is pleased.


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## Mappa Douji (Feb 17, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> i am use to people trying to attack me from all sides lol. (no homo) hao i think it's time to use more saint seiya and the getbackers in mvc more



Seriously. I'm tired of stupid dbz threads. It's like the only thing people read or something over there.


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## Darth Nihilus (Feb 17, 2010)

It's all they seem to know


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## Heavenly King (Feb 17, 2010)

Chibi_Hao said:


> Seriously. I'm tired of stupid dbz threads. It's like the only thing people read or something over there.



i been tired of them crazy insane power scaling lies more and more random made up crap. if akria never said it then they can't do it



Darth Nihilus said:


> It's all they seem to know



they don't even know dbz


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## Heavenly King (Feb 17, 2010)

Lucaniel said:


> oh lol
> 
> why would you even say "no homo" no-one would try taking advantage of that





i am just use to saying that lol


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