# Digimon vs Xenogears



## Fang (Jul 16, 2010)

Not sure if this belongs here but everything allowed for both sides.


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## God (Jul 16, 2010)

It'd be interesting to see WoE vs ZeedMillenniummon, but Id would get beat by the universals (there's like 30 of them). So it might be stalemate with WoE vs ZeedMillenniummon, but all things considered it's just a win for Digimon.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 16, 2010)

Xenogears is a game so wrong section. And the last people standing are the WoE, Fei, and Xenogears itself.


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## Seyta (Jul 16, 2010)

I don't really know anything about Xenogears, but as far as Digimon goes, they have one Multiversal and a small army of Universal-scale entities:

Multiversal:
-Zeedmillenniummon

Universal:
-Moon=Millenniummon
-Millenniummon
-Ogudomon
-Leviamon
-Examon
-Huanglongmon
-Susanoomon
-Omegamon-X
-Megidramon
-Apocalymon
-NEO
-Yggdrasil
-King Drasil

Universal by Powerscaling:
-Chronomon Holy Mode
-Dexmon
-GranDracmon
-Alphamon (Oryuuken)
-Ultimate Chaosmon
-Gaiamon
-Lucemon Satan Mode

There are quite a few more I think, but I'm not familiar with every continuation of Digimon, so I can't really make the call on the rest of them


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 16, 2010)

Fei/Id & Xenogears

here

Wave Existence

here

Deus

here


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## 11wongjk2 (Jul 16, 2010)

i have trouble seeing why an omnipresent multiverse buster who should be infinitely faster than anyone else can't spam multiverse busters infinitely


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## Seyta (Jul 16, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Fei/Id & Xenogears
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...



What I've gotten from this is that Xenogears has one Multiversal Entity, and two Universals?

Wave Existence= Multiversal
Fei Fong Wong= Universal (The Big Bang scale power)
Deus= Universal (the Wiki said this was his level of Durability)

Provided the Wave Existence can Match Zeedmillenniummon, the other two will likely be overwhelmed.


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## 11wongjk2 (Jul 17, 2010)

If we powerscale examon from card game, his avalon's gate is even stronger than omegamon X's grey sword which says a lot but it doesn't exactly tell me why he is considered universal


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## Seyta (Jul 17, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> If we powerscale examon from card game, his avalon's gate is even stronger than omegamon X's grey sword which says a lot but it doesn't exactly tell me why he is considered universal



Examon is just put at that level because of his size

The amount of data composing him was so large that it took until now for him to actually manifest in the Digital World...

Additionally, he's supposed to be the most powerful Dragon Digimon to ever exist, making him stronger than both Azulongmon and Huanglongmon

The latter of which was the creator of the Four Sovereigns


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## Nihilistic (Jul 17, 2010)

Aren't Xenogears higher on the OBD fiction tier list than Digimon?


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## Demon Of Elru (Jul 17, 2010)

No one in Digimon can beat Fei's PAS.

Digimon looses.


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## God (Jul 17, 2010)

^ Omegamon negates it.

Also, I have no idea why Xenogears is higher, but if Xenosaga is in the same multiverse, they also have U-DO which is another multiversal entity from what I've heard.


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## Demon Of Elru (Jul 17, 2010)

Cubey said:


> ^ Omegamon negates it.



Right he is going to negate somenthing that can alter infinite future phenomena--even those with probabilities as low as 0.

Yeah no that isn't happening because no one in Digimon has the power to negate or beat that.


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## 11wongjk2 (Jul 17, 2010)

Demon Of Elru said:


> Right he is going to negate somenthing that can alter infinite future phenomena--even those with probabilities as low as 0.
> 
> Yeah no that isn't happening because no one in Digimon has the power to negate or beat that.



it doesn't matter his omega gain force will keep on updating him about the new future


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## God (Jul 17, 2010)

Demon Of Elru said:


> Right he is going to negate somenthing that can alter infinite future phenomena--even those with probabilities as low as 0.
> 
> Yeah no that isn't happening because no one in Digimon has the power to negate or beat that.



Probability manipulation =/= protection from negation/nullification.


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## Weltall8000 (Jul 17, 2010)

Take it from him, he is obviously,_completely_ unbiased Mr. Demon of Elru...

But yeah, I like the name!


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 17, 2010)

Been a while but PAS works even outside time, Fei is the avatar of the Wave Existence that being which practically sweats out universes.


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## Demon Of Elru (Jul 17, 2010)

Cubey said:


> Probability manipulation =/= protection from negation/nullification.





> it doesn't matter his omega gain force will keep on updating him about the new future



Wrong both of you.

you two should read this thread:

 http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/502/08/

Digimon doesn't have a chance to win.


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## 11wongjk2 (Jul 17, 2010)

Demon Of Elru said:


> Wrong both of you.
> 
> you two should read this thread:
> 
> ...



which part of the thread do u want me to read?



> - ability to manipulate space & time
> - can alter infinite future phenomena--even those with probabilities as low as 0 (this is what makes him nigh-impossible to beat)
> -can distort space--effectively using the walls of spacetime as a blanket of defense and visibility
> - ability to harm non-corporeal beings
> ...


This?
Impressive

But I need some definitions before i can proceed to debate. what is infinite wave energy?


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## Demon Of Elru (Jul 17, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> which part of the thread do u want me to read?
> 
> This?
> Impressive
> ...



How about all the thread as well as reading this one:

 http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/502/08/


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 17, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> which part of the thread do u want me to read?
> 
> 
> This?
> ...



Wave Energy is the stuff the Wave Existence can create. A few droplets of it can create universes.


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## 11wongjk2 (Jul 17, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Wave Energy is the stuff the Wave Existence can create. A few droplets of it can create universes.



can Omegamon x delete it? and reset the energy so that he can use it?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 17, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> can Omegamon x delete it? and reset the energy so that he can use it?


WoE
 http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/502/08/

Omegamon X
 http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/502/08/

I dunno, you tell me.


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## Demon Of Elru (Jul 17, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> can Omegamon x delete it? and reset the energy so that he can use it?



I would love to see him trying.


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## God (Jul 17, 2010)

Demon Of Elru said:


> Wrong both of you.
> 
> you two should read this thread:
> 
> http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/502/08/



Read it already.



> Digimon doesn't have a chance to win.



:babylonianryoma


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## God (Jul 17, 2010)

Xenogear =/= WoE

WoE itself is multiversal, Xenogear only has universal showings. So yes, he can nullify it like he did Yggdrasil.


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## Demon Of Elru (Jul 17, 2010)

That shows you don't know how PAS works and the extent of Fei's powers is the same as the WE if you have read the thread and actually played the game, read perfect works you will know this but is clear you haven't.

and Omegamon negating PAS is hilarious.


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## God (Jul 17, 2010)

Demon Of Elru said:


> That shows you don't know how PAS works and the extent of Fei's powers is the same as the WE if you have read the thread and actually played the game, read perfect works you will know this but is clear you haven't.
> 
> and Omegamon negating PAS is hilarious.



I dont recall him doing anything multiversal. And even if he did, there's enough universe busters to make him shit his pants.

And Omegamon negating it isn't hilarious and he's destroyed the God of the the Digital World before, and you would know that if you had ever thought about reading up on it.


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## Demon Of Elru (Jul 17, 2010)

Cubey said:


> I dont recall him doing anything multiversal. And even if he did, there's enough universe busters to make him shit his pants.
> .



It doesn't matter the number because the WE is Multiversal Fei is the WE and PAS can alter infinite future phenomena--even those with probabilities as low as 0.

So it doesn't matter they don't have the power to negate or beat that.


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## 11wongjk2 (Jul 17, 2010)

Demon Of Elru said:


> It doesn't matter the number because the WE is Multiversal Fei is the WE and PAS can alter infinite future phenomena--even those with probabilities as low as 0.
> 
> So it doesn't matter they don't have the power to negate or beat that.


 what is altering the future gonna do when i know what you are going to be altering?

or this way

omegamon x deletes the seal around zeed and everyone dies


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## God (Jul 17, 2010)

Demon Of Elru said:


> It doesn't matter the number because the WE is Multiversal Fei is the WE and PAS can alter infinite future phenomena--even those with probabilities as low as 0.
> 
> So it doesn't matter they don't have the power to negate or beat that.



Like what was said the WoE would probably stalemate ZeedMillenniummon, so if Fei = WE then he's in that stalemate, which means that last guy gets utterly clobbered by all the universals.

And they dont need to be able to beat that as it's not gonna do anything to them. Fei cant kill UlforceVeedramon Super Ultimate either.


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## Demon Of Elru (Jul 17, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> what is altering the future gonna do when i know what you are going to be altering?
> 
> or this way
> 
> omegamon x deletes the seal around zeed and everyone dies



PAS works even outside time and you haven't understand that PAS can alter those with 0 probability meaning those that doesn't exist.


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## 11wongjk2 (Jul 17, 2010)

i still have trouble seeing why zeed won't be launching millions of multiverse busters before fei wong can even react

btw is 0 even a probability now


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## ~BLAZxBLUE~ (Jul 17, 2010)

Well, since this is the whole Digiverse, I don't see whats stopping Zeed from absorbing ABC and ENIAC to become Omnipotent.


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## 11wongjk2 (Jul 17, 2010)

what is abc and eniac


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## ~BLAZxBLUE~ (Jul 17, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> what is abc and eniac



The makers of the Digimon Multiverse, who are just under Zeed in power. They are two super computers who have controll over the Digimon multiverse, and If Zeed had succeeded in absorbing them, he would have become a true Omnipotent.


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## Seyta (Jul 17, 2010)

Doesn't matter if PAS functions outside of time.

Neither Zeedmillenniummon nor Moon=Millenniummon are bound by temporal restraints.

Zeedmillenniummon for one is omnipresent within the Digimon Multiverse

That being said, the entire "altering probability" thing is almost useless.
The Alpha Gain Force can effectively counter that since it has similar enough properties.
(I.E. When Alphamon fails to kill you, you're still dead)


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## Big Bοss (Jul 18, 2010)

Well some images to show you how Fei's PAS works.


*Spoiler*: __ 



[/QUOTE]





*Spoiler*: __ 








Saying PAS is useless is funny because Deus was strapped to a power source that can change infinite realities to its liking and infinite energy but he couldn't do nothing against Fei.

For PAS All phenomenal shifting are possible even with a value of zero = even those that don't exist, he has the power to change the future to something that has no possibility of happening. None whatsoever. 

Useless right.....

You would have to prove someone in Digimon has the power to nullify the power to alter infinite future phenomena even those with probabilities as low as 0 = those who are impossible and don't even exist, and in a Multiversal level.

But let's not stop here some useful quotes:



lambda said:


> And Xenogears is powered by a being that create universes by existing.





lambda said:


> Xenogears can endure the destruction of a dimension filled with WE energy, and the ripples created by this energy spilling from the Wave Existence create universes.






lambda said:


> Zetta said:
> 
> 
> > The point is that everything the Wave Existance can do, Demonbane can match.
> ...





Keollyn said:


> *tlwr*;
> 
> One of his first feats in Xenogears was beating and destroying Zohar-merged Deus. Now to fully understand how powerful Deus is, know that the Zohar is capable of producing infinite energy by manipulating _infinite_ parallel universes. It can even steal some from the Wave Dimension (which is energy far richer than any energy in the fourth dimension... even with what Zohar can produce)
> 
> ...



Having similar enough properties doesn't mean nothing because people with similar powers people that could use PAS and had acces to infinite energy couldn't do nothing agains't Fei.

Another thing is that Uroboros and Karellen are low-end multiversal.

- Karellen became a wave being.
- Uroboros is a being created from wave energy.

And remember Fei destroyed both of them with utter ease.

About the number issue let's quote Lambda again: not even DemonBane who can summon 92 other Demonbane's that are possibly more powerful than him can't do nothing against Fei and Xenogears because at this point, it doesn't matter how many Demonbane there is, because the number gets meaningless at this level. 

So the universal's from Digimon don't mean nothing in this fight.

The only one that possess some threat is Zeedmillenniummon and I doubt he can overcome Fei's PAS.


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## 11wongjk2 (Jul 18, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> Well some images to show you how Fei's PAS works.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



is he fast enough though?
no, he is still tanking millions of mulltiverse busters, and digimon also have guy who fuck with time. That said couldn't zeed just go back when fei wong was even born and kill him


oh and pas must really useful because 0 is like becoming omnipotent and fei wong is still not omnipotent


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 18, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> is he fast enough though?
> no, he is still tanking millions of mulltiverse busters, and digimon also have guy who fuck with time. That said couldn't zeed just go back when fei wong was even born and kill him



Fei inside Xenogears is tanking.



> Xenogears - Flew into the center of a black hole and took the entire Path of Sephirot exploding on him unharmed. The Path of Sephirot was filled with Wave Energy--something capable of creating a universe with a few drops



As for speed



> Xenogears - Noted immeasurable in a verse where faster than light speeds is calculable



As for power



> Xenogears - Destroyed Deus, Zohar and Urboros without much effort. For understanding of how powerful that would make him, know that the big bang couldn't even destroy Zohar--Zohar empowers Deus to maximum output when he merged and Urboros eclipse Zohar/Deus in power


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## Big Bοss (Jul 18, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> is he fast enough though?
> no, he is still tanking millions of mulltiverse busters, and digimon also have guy who fuck with time. That said couldn't zeed just go back when fei wong was even born and kill him
> 
> oh and pas must really useful because 0 is like becoming omnipotent and fei wong is still not omnipotent



For PAS All phenomenal shifting are possible even with a value of zero = even those that don't exist, he has the power to change the future to something that has no possibility of happening. None whatsoever.

You would have to prove someone in Digimon has the power to nullify the power to alter infinite future phenomena even those with probabilities as low as 0 = those who are impossible and don't even exist, and in a Multiversal level.

Yet with this power he isn't omnipotent but you will need a power greater than the one Fei has to be able to beat him.

As for the dude that can fuck with time that isn't doing nothing to Fei either the WE = Fei and PAS works even outside time and the WE is multiversal the range of powers is to great for them to compete.


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## Seyta (Jul 18, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> Well some images to show you how Fei's PAS works.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Several things:

1- The Demonbane statement means nothing.
You're dragging in an argument made against a separate series that wasn't conclusive to begin with.
Unless there was a canonical occurrence involving 92 Demonbanes entering Xenogears, that's not a valid point.

2- From what I'm getting from this thread:

http://www.onemanga.com/Witch_Hunter/12/27/

Fei's entire arsenal comes from his "Source God"

What he does to alter probability is shift through infinite realities until one is found in which the desired outcome is present, and then shift it back to the normal reality.

I don't see what this does to an omnipresent being.

As for altering the effect of probability manipulation in a case where the scenario desired has an occurring chance of Zero, Alphamon Oryuuken covers that.

The Alpha Gain Force allows him to manifest scenarios in which things that didn't happen happened.
For example, if he swings his sword at you and misses, the moment will repeat itself infinitely until a scenario occurs in which you die, despite the fact that he missed


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## 11wongjk2 (Jul 18, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Fei inside Xenogears is tanking.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



go back to the past? BTW millions can turn into billions or trillions(basically as much as it needs)


BTW digimon got a guy who defeated the future itself


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## Seyta (Jul 18, 2010)

As a side note, Zeedmillenniummon can't spam trillions of Multiverse busters.
I'm not really sure where that came from, but it most certainly wasn't in the Brave Tamer game

He was simultaneously bombing dimensions and universes out of existence, but millions, billions and trillions is a bit much.
There weren't even that many to begin with.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 18, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> go back to the past? BTW millions can turn into billions or trillions(basically as much as it needs)
> 
> 
> BTW digimon got a guy who defeated the future itself





> Saying PAS is useless is funny because Deus was strapped to a power source that can change infinite realities to its liking and infinite energy but he couldn't do nothing against Fei.
> 
> For PAS All phenomenal shifting are possible even with a value of zero = even those that don't exist, he has the power to change the future to something that has no possibility of happening. None whatsoever.



Meaning he can create a reality where he wins unless



> You would have to prove someone in Digimon has the power to nullify the power to alter infinite future phenomena even those with probabilities as low as 0 = those who are impossible and don't even exist, and in a Multiversal level.


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## Big Bοss (Jul 18, 2010)

Seyta said:


> Several things:
> 
> 1- The Demonbane statement means nothing.
> You're dragging in an argument made against a separate series that wasn't conclusive to begin with.
> Unless there was a canonical occurrence involving 92 Demonbanes entering Xenogears, that's not a valid point.



Actually it does mean somenthing because those Demonbane's would shit in anyone in Digimon and not even that kind of number would mean nothing against Fei, so the number of Digimosn doesn't mean nothing they would all get destroyed by Fei and they won't even have the power to harm him.



> 2- From what I'm getting from this thread:
> 
> http://www.onemanga.com/Witch_Hunter/12/27/
> 
> ...



Having the power to alter infinite future phenomena even those with probabilities as low as 0 = those who are impossible and don't even exist = being able to fuck up Zeed.



> As for altering the effect of probability manipulation in a case where the scenario desired has an occurring chance of Zero, Alphamon Oryuuken covers that.



Sure bring proof of it and while you are at it bring proof it can do it in a multiversal level.



> The Alpha Gain Force allows him to manifest scenarios in which things that didn't happen happened.
> For example, if he swings his sword at you and misses, the moment will repeat itself infinitely until a scenario occurs in which you die.



Nice but then again PAS = Multiversal range and power plus alter infinite future phenomena even those with probabilities as low as 0 = those who are impossible and don't even exist. > Alpha Gain Force.


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## God (Jul 18, 2010)

Wait wait, how does any of that happen with Zeed there.


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## 11wongjk2 (Jul 18, 2010)

Seyta said:


> As a side note, Zeedmillenniummon can't spam trillions of Multiverse busters.
> I'm not really sure where that came from, but it most certainly wasn't in the Brave Tamer game
> 
> He was simultaneously bombing dimensions and universes out of existence, but millions, billions and trillions is a bit much.
> There weren't even that many to begin with.



being omnipresent allow you to spam as much as you want. he just has to go to a lower unit of time and attack again

@garh

prove PAS can make Fei wong omnipotent and i will believe in altering the future even if the probability is 0


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 18, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> being omnipresent allow you to spam as much as you want. he just has to go to a lower unit of time and attack again



Being omnipresent means your whole being is everywhere at once. Which don't mean much if something like Xenogears can tank a place filled with Wave Energy.


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## 11wongjk2 (Jul 18, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Being omnipresent means your whole being is *everywhere* at once. Which don't mean much if something like Xenogears can tank a place filled with Wave Energy.



and at every point of time as well

ie,0.01s,0.001s,0.0001s,0.00001s

and the idea of everywhere, couldn't zeed just go into xenogears and blast fei wong from point blank


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## Big Bοss (Jul 18, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> @garh
> 
> prove PAS can make Fei wong omnipotent and i will believe in altering the future even if the probability is 0



Never said he is Omnipotent in fact I said he isn't.

And it doesn't matter if you believe it can alter those with probability of 0 because is what it does.

The game and PW are proof of it.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 18, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> and at every point of time as well
> 
> ie,0.01s,0.001s,0.0001s,0.00001s
> 
> and the idea of everywhere, couldn't zeed just go into xenogears and blast fei wong from point blank



Again, the whole PAS thing and the fact Xenogears can tank Wave Energy, plus destroying a being made out of Wave Energy (Uroboros). Fei in combination with Xenogears is one broken bastard.


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## 11wongjk2 (Jul 18, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Again, the whole PAS thing and the fact Xenogears can tank Wave Energy, plus destroying a being made out of Wave Energy (Uroboros). Fei in combination with Xenogears is one broken bastard.



How fast can fei react?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 18, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> How fast can fei react?



He rides a machine where even saying he's FTL is not enough. What do you think?


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## 11wongjk2 (Jul 19, 2010)

basch71 said:


> He rides a machine where even saying he's FTL is not enough. What do you think?



The fact that he travels means that he is still not omnipresent. And you are saying he can block a blast from someone that's omnipresent

It's like saying that Fei wong can defeat eternity 

although I would say eternity is a few level above zeed

oh and by any chance does this guy have any evil in him?


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## Seyta (Jul 19, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> Actually it does mean somenthing because those Demonbane's would shit in anyone in Digimon and not even that kind of number would mean nothing against Fei, so the number of Digimosn doesn't mean nothing they would all get destroyed by Fei and they won't even have the power to harm him.



Quite frankly, getting angry and swearing in your responses doesn't help anyone. It just leads to a deterioration of cohesiveness.

As for the Demonbanes, it's an invalid argument.
You're drawing up a fanfictional scenario in which Fei has actually dealt with 92 Demonbanes, which I can safely say has never happened.
It's like taking lambda's word as a canonical source, when there are still valid disagreements.

For example, if I were to quote Zetta right now, I could find a statement from him detailing how Fei would LOSE to 92 Demonbanes, and I'm sure that Zetta has just as much credibility with his claims as lambda.



Grαhf said:


> Having the power to alter infinite future phenomena even those with probabilities as low as 0 = those who are impossible and don't even exist = being able to fuck up Zeed.





Grαhf said:


> Nice but then again PAS = Multiversal range and power plus alter infinite future phenomena even those with probabilities as low as 0 = those who are impossible and don't even exist. > Alpha Gain Force.



I looked over the description you gave me of his power (the little comic strip)
Again, it didn't even include the ability to create a scenario whose outcome was "zero".

By definition, that ability falls solely to omnipotents, because an outcome whose probability of occurrence is zero is a scenario that should never happen. Only an omnipotent, which by definition can "do anything", is capable of making that scenario a reality.

This is different from a scenario that is improbable, which can be manifested by high-class reality warpers.
If the probability of occurrence was zero to begin with, than even the most powerful reality warpers cannot make it occur, because the probability of zero would already have factored in their powers.
On the other hand, if a probability of occurrence was NEARLY zero, say .0000000000000000000000000000000000000001, then a potent enough reality warper would BE responsible for the .0000000000000000000000000000000000000001 chance that it DID happen.

So I will ask you now.
Does it have the ability to manifest scenarios whose outcomes were absolutely zero?
Or does it have the ability to manifest scenarios whose outcomes were NEARLY zero?

The first would label the Wave Existence as an omnipotent.
If the Wave Existence is omnipotent, all you need to do is say so.




Grαhf said:


> Sure bring proof of it and while you are at it bring proof it can do it in a multiversal level.



He can't do it on a multiversal level
But as far as I'm aware, it isn't necessary to begin with


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 19, 2010)

How did Demonbane get into this? Can the person who brought it up not argue without it? What kind of debating tactic involves using A>B>C logic throuhg the use of OBD victories and losses? And what's this about Zeed spamming millions/trillions of Multiverse busters again? Proof.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 19, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> The fact that he travels means that he is still not omnipresent. And you are saying he can block a blast from someone that's omnipresent



What does omnipresence have to do with attack strength?



> It's like saying that Fei wong can defeat eternity
> 
> although I would say eternity is a few level above zeed
> 
> oh and by any chance does this guy have any evil in him?



What does this have to do with anything? Unless Zeed has enough strength to break his defenses and his power to make a future by shifting through infinite realities where he wins and makes it true, I'm not seeing any progress happening.


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## Seyta (Jul 19, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> How did Demonbane get into this? Can the person who brought it up not argue without it? What kind of debating tactic involves using A>B>C logic throuhg the use of OBD victories and losses? And what's this about Zeed spamming millions/trillions of Multiverse busters again? Proof.



For the Demonbane scenario, the poster is just angry 

For the trillions of multiverse busters, it never actually happened and is completely theoretical. 
I'm probably one of the only people who has played Brave Tamer, and I never saw such a thing in the game.

Neither side is making much sense at this point, which is always the issue that arises when nigh-omnipotent characters are pitted against each other


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## 11wongjk2 (Jul 19, 2010)

can i see his multiverse durability proof?

You show me this and I'll concede

oh and answer seyta's post


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## God (Jul 19, 2010)

Digimon just has way more people of the universal-multiversal calibre, so win through numbers. Xenogears only has Deus, and Id. Considering Id IS the WoE as people say, the WoE shouldn't count as a separate entity. So Zeed stalemates Id while Deus gets overwhelmed by the top-tiers, then they gang up on Id.

Or if the WoE IS a separate entity, then Id is not multiversal because he isn't actually the WoE (as people claim when they say Id = multiversal)


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## Seyta (Jul 19, 2010)

Cubey said:


> Digimon just has way more people of the universal-multiversal calibre, so win through numbers. Xenogears only has Deus, and Id. Considering Id IS the WoE as people say, the WoE shouldn't count as a separate entity. So Zeed stalemates Id while Deus gets overwhelmed by the top-tiers, then they gang up on Id.
> 
> Or if the WoE IS a separate entity, then Id is not multiversal because he isn't actually the WoE (as people claim when they say Id = multiversal)



The "ganging up" won't work.

Zeedmillenniummon would kill every universal-scale character in the crossfire. Even more so if Omegamon X makes it his first move to Delete Zeedmillenniummon's Fractal Code.
The only ones that might survive from the Digimon side are ENIAC, because it's a multiversal entity, and Moon=Millenniummon, because it can resurrect itself from the timestream.


----------



## 11wongjk2 (Jul 19, 2010)

excuse me but why are we treating digimon as if only one zeed exists? when milleniumon dies, he evolves into zeed

and i asssume tamers are included in this the digimon verse. so if we have a tamer who will jogress mugendramon and chimeramon together, we get another milleniumon. when it dies, another zeed comes into the game


----------



## God (Jul 19, 2010)

Only if he does something stupid like blow up the multiverse would they all die. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a reason for them to get caught as the universals' only challenge would be Deus, and Zeed's Id, so there wouldn't really be any need for confusion.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jul 19, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> can i see his multiverse durability proof?
> 
> You show me this and I'll concede
> 
> oh and answer seyta's post



Who? The Wave Existence? You are aware it has been repeatedly said here that it sweats out universes, you know? That being said Digimon does have more universals on it's side. Arguments involving Multiversals comes down to "Who has the bigger Multiversal power". We don't know which has the bigger Multiverse so it's best to leave this inconclusive or a draw.



> ENIAC, because it's a multiversal entity



Digimon has another Multiversal? Where is ENIAC from? I'm interested.

EDIT There is only one Zeed created from the fusion of those two, for some reason it never happens again.


----------



## 11wongjk2 (Jul 19, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Who? The Wave Existence? You are aware it has been repeatedly said here that it sweats out universes, you know? That being said Digimon does have more universals on it's side. Arguments involving Multiversals comes down to "Who has the bigger Multiversal power". We don't know which has the bigger Multiverse so it's best to leave this inconclusive or a draw.
> .



I'm talking about the xenogears. one of the members here said that xenogears can tank multiverse busters


----------



## Seyta (Jul 19, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> excuse me but why are we treating digimon as if only one zeed exists? when milleniumon dies, he evolves into zeed



Technically, Zeedmillenniummon's omnipresence should prevent that.

There was only one Millenniummon to begin with, one Moon=Millenniummon to evolve from him, and one Zeedmillenniummon after that.

The scenario in which there was simultaneously a Millenniummon and a Zeedmillenniummon would canonically have been impossible. It's only made possible now because we're using the OBD.

There were very special necessities for Millenniummon to digivolve twice to begin with. Namely, it was Ryo who killed him both times.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jul 19, 2010)

Xenogears is piloted by the Avatar of the Wave Existence, think Tenchi actually having more control in becoming Kami Tenchi. Theoretically near the end or so Fei can use all the powers of The Wave Existence. Fei/The Wave Existence's power should be the same at the end but it's been a while so I could be wrong.


----------



## Seyta (Jul 19, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Digimon has another Multiversal? Where is ENIAC from? I'm interested.
> 
> EDIT There is only one Zeed created from the fusion of those two, for some reason it never happens again.



ENIAC was the first Multiversal.
It's the entity from which every Universe in the Digital World originally spawned, and is present in every Digital Universe.

However, it was inferior to Zeedmillenniummon, and called on Ryo to save it, which was pretty much the plot of Brave Tamer.


----------



## God (Jul 19, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Xenogears is piloted by the Avatar of the Wave Existence, think Tenchi actually having more control in becoming Kami Tenchi. Theoretically near the end or so Fei can use all the powers of The Wave Existence. Fei/The Wave Existence's power should be the same at the end but it's been a while so I could be wrong.



Being the avatar of a multiversal being in and of itself does not warrant the same level of power. For example, Thanos even as an avatar of Death is not universal/multiversal unless it's with artifacts.

You'd have to show evidence of it. Has it ever been said that he is at WoE's level or that he can access all of its power? That or feats would be needed for these multiversal claims.


----------



## 11wongjk2 (Jul 19, 2010)

Seyta said:


> *It's only made possible now because we're using the OBD.
> *



OBd is a fascinating place. so now we have two zeed. how fun is that



Tranquil Fury said:


> Xenogears is piloted by the Avatar of the Wave Existence, think Tenchi actually having more control in becoming Kami Tenchi. Theoretically near the end or so Fei can use all the powers of The Wave Existence. Fei/The Wave Existence's power should be the same at the end but it's been a while so I could be wrong.



by this logic, julian solo=poseidon?


----------



## Seyta (Jul 19, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> OBd is a fascinating place. so now we have two zeed. how fun is that
> 
> 
> 
> by this logic, julian solo=poseidon?



Millenniummon can't become Zeedmillenniummon without the prior necessities for the Digivolution.

Namely, he needs Ryo to kill him, and then he needs to be so angry about it that his spirit revives from the dead to become Moon=Millenniummon.

And then Ryo has to kill him AGAIN.

It's not like a normal Digivolution.
Millenniummon was already far beyond Mega Level.
Two more Digivolutions couldn't possibly occur under normal circumstances without a catalyst to induce it.


----------



## 11wongjk2 (Jul 19, 2010)

Seyta said:


> Millenniummon can't become Zeedmillenniummon without the prior necessities for the Digivolution.
> 
> Namely, he needs Ryo to kill him, and then he needs to be so angry about it that his spirit revives from the dead to become Moon=Millenniummon.
> 
> ...



getting killed in crossfire doesn't make you angry? or getting killed by someone before you know it doesn't make you angry?


I honestly dont think milleniumon has 200EQ


----------



## Big Bοss (Jul 19, 2010)

Seyta said:


> -snip-



Ok, let's leave demonbane behind and I am not angry if you can take someone saying "shit" in a argument well that is to bad.

Well The WE is an nigh- omnipotent being who doesn't bother doing anything and still create universes by inadvertence. It produces infinite energy at any time.

In other words Xenogears haves infinite wave energy he won't run out of power and he will be granted with the power to win that is what PAS does, that is why you have to have a greater power than him if you want to beat him.

Meaning all of those Universal digimons won't be able to harm Fei the fact that Xenogears can endure the destruction of a dimension filled with WE energy proves they won't do nothing against him.



> I looked over the description you gave me of his power (the little comic strip)
> Again, it didn't even include the ability to create a scenario whose outcome was "zero".
> 
> By definition, that ability falls solely to omnipotents, because an outcome whose probability of occurrence is zero is a scenario that should never happen. Only an omnipotent, which by definition can "do anything", is capable of making that scenario a reality.
> ...



Description of PAS by Perfect Works:


*Spoiler*: __ 



A single phenomenon is indicated by an enclosed point, however, an infinite pool of potential phenomena also exists within the bounds of the plane. These event points are different derivatives of the most convenient phenomenon and can be classified into subcategories based on their derivative aspects or characteristics. The larger the area of a potential phenomenon, the greater its chances are of occurring (i.e. the most convenient phenomenon always has an area eclipsing that of the other phenomena). In this group, the area and the numbers equal zero, zero hours after the Big Bang. Immediately after the Big Bang, the total area becomes one allowing the area to grow in league with the passage of time. In laymen’s terms, space can be viewed as a concept of probability theory; the net complexity of which does not change immediately after creation, rather, the net complexity increases with the passage of time, yielding a new level of complexity and thus newer levels of complexity are born from the previous level (see figure 2 for reference).

How is the most convenient phenomenon for the Active Subject selected when its forecasted value is comparatively low considering other potential phenomenon? Normally, aiming for an event with a low probability is impossible as the Active Subject's "quest" is transformed into an actual event, as opposed to the desired event itself. Project Zohar, however, operates in an entirely the opposite manner; Zohar itself can alter and increase the possibility of a desired event, leaving all other probable phenomenon behind, rendering the desired phenomenon real; making the desired phenomenon the most convenient phenomenon. The technique behind all of this involves maintaining the total sum of the probabilities by inclining the phenomenal axis such that it intersects with the temporal axis while centering upon the desired phenomenon's "Material = Energy Shift Level" or "Energy Phase Distribution" values. A particular event exists alongside other probable events, like a needle in a haystack. To a certain extent, a particular event, much like the prick of a needle, can be unpleasant. Using Zohar as a magnifying glass of sorts, one can pinpoint and actualize more desirable circumstances by tilting the axis of probability in its favor (see figure 3 for reference).

After this, the desired event is "actualized," resetting the inclination of the
axis of probability. Between the start and finish of this process, energy from the displacement of entropy can be obtained. With present technology, only the "Energy Phase Distribution Axis" can be shifted, however, one loses the ability to produce an infinite amount of energy once the energy is compensated for targets outside of the active subject. Also, efficiency decreases as the space-time grid surrounding the Active Subject moves further from the vacuum but with respect to the Active Subject theory, this spatial energy is still available.

Zohar continues to select from among many different phenomena and how is this applied to the time axis? that time, contains both the beginning and the end of time simultaneously, the ratio 0 of the possible phenomena is not separate from this universe, but a separate universe is created.the beginning of that universe starts with the Big Bang and the rest is largely a mystery.




Last thing... since it was proven that Xenogears operates even without the Zohar, this is proof of Xenogears getting his powers DIRECTLY from the Wave Existence. And since the WE is back in his domain at the end and Xenogears is still operational, that means his power draws directly from this dimension. No longer a need for a middle-man.

about people doubting Fei = WE



The WE saying it clearly "my power went into you"



> He can't do it on a multiversal level
> But as far as I'm aware, it isn't necessary to begin with



You haven't bring proof of him being able to alter those with 0 probability and being able to do it in a multiversal scale is necessary for him to be able to beat Fei's PAS.

*props to Keo because I copy info he already posted*


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 19, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> can i see his multiverse durability proof?



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67RDfn49ZGo[/YOUTUBE]

0:00-4:32

The Path of Sephirot is filled with Wave Energy (the stuff where only a few droplets worth can create Universes) and they tanked the explosion. After hand Fei with Elly ride Xenogears back down to the planet.

It took me a bit, I had to watch everything since it's been years and I had to confirm it.


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 19, 2010)

I've been extremely preoccupied with RL things and a bit sick, but I've been pulled into this thread by the Diablo Corps, so I must answer and then get back to the real world :ho

So, what must I debunk?


----------



## 11wongjk2 (Jul 19, 2010)

Keollyn said:


> I've been extremely preoccupied with RL things and a bit sick, but I've been pulled into this thread by the Diablo Corps, so I must answer and then get back to the real world :ho
> 
> So, what must I debunk?



I rather you finish the MDMT

and it seems like xenogears is able to tank multiverse busters

I don't have much to say

but what happens if zeed absorbs the entire digiverse?


----------



## Big Bοss (Jul 19, 2010)

Keollyn said:


> I've been extremely preoccupied with RL things and a bit sick, but I've been pulled into this thread by the Diablo Corps, so I must answer and then get back to the real world :ho
> 
> So, what must I debunk?



Took you long enough 

already posted some of your info.


----------



## Id (Jul 19, 2010)

Hey guess what? since it’s the Xenoverse as a whole. Fie is not the only baddie dem digimon have to deal with. You basically set the stage for Zeed to confront Har directly.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jul 19, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> OBd is a fascinating place. so now we have two zeed. how fun is that
> 
> 
> 
> by this logic, julian solo=poseidon?



No, Julian is'nt as powerful as Poseidon in his real body. Fei on the other hand is as powerful as WE.


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 19, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> I rather you finish the MDMT
> 
> and it seems like xenogears is able to tank multiverse busters
> 
> ...



I would hope too, but I doubt I'd be signed on long anyway. It isn't like most matches aren't done for that round. I should really get someone to dual host (I.E. create the 3rd round matches).



Grαhf said:


> Took you long enough
> 
> already posted some of your info.



I only read what you sent me. Anything else changed?



Id said:


> Hey guess what? since it?s the Xenoverse as a whole. Fie is not the only baddie dem digimon have to deal with. You basically set the stage for Zeed to confront Har directly.



The Wave Existence? Oh that's just mean


----------



## Seyta (Jul 19, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> Ok, let's leave demonbane behind and I am not angry *if you can take someone saying "shit" in a argument well that is to bad.*



Notably enough this statement made no sense.



Grαhf said:


> A single phenomenon is indicated by an enclosed point, however, an infinite pool of potential phenomena also exists within the bounds of the plane. These event points are different derivatives of the most convenient phenomenon and can be classified into subcategories based on their derivative aspects or characteristics. The larger the area of a potential phenomenon, the greater its chances are of occurring (i.e. the most convenient phenomenon always has an area eclipsing that of the other phenomena). *In this group, the area and the numbers equal zero, zero hours after the Big Bang*. Immediately after the Big Bang, the total area becomes one allowing the area to grow in league with the passage of time. In laymen’s terms, space can be viewed as a concept of probability theory; the net complexity of which does not change immediately after creation, rather, the net complexity increases with the passage of time, yielding a new level of complexity and thus newer levels of complexity are born from the previous level (see figure 2 for reference).
> 
> *How is the most convenient phenomenon for the Active Subject selected when its forecasted value is comparatively low considering other potential phenomenon?* Normally, aiming for *an event with a low probability* is impossible as the Active Subject's "quest" is transformed into an actual event, as opposed to the desired event itself. Project Zohar, however, operates in an entirely the opposite manner; Zohar itself can alter and increase the possibility of a desired event, leaving all other probable phenomenon behind, rendering the desired phenomenon real; making the desired phenomenon the most convenient phenomenon. The technique behind all of this involves maintaining the total sum of the probabilities by inclining the phenomenal axis such that it intersects with the temporal axis while centering upon the desired phenomenon's "Material = Energy Shift Level" or "Energy Phase Distribution" values. *A particular event exists* alongside other probable events, like a needle in a haystack. To a certain extent, a particular event, much like the prick of a needle, can be unpleasant. Using Zohar as a magnifying glass of sorts, one can pinpoint and actualize more desirable circumstances by tilting the axis of probability in its favor (see figure 3 for reference).



I've enlarged all the necessary portions.
By definition, it enlarges the probability of a desired event occurring.
That event may have a LOW probability of occurring.
It also needs to EXIST alongside other probable events.

The necessity for it to exist indicates that the original probability of occurrence could not be zero.
If the probability of occurrence was zero, then it would not exist to begin with.

From this, it is fairly conclusive that it can't make a scenario occur in which the original probability of occurrence was zero.
The probability could be low, but it had to have been possible in some way to begin with.

I.E. It could be .00000000000000000000001 but the possibility had to "exist" for it to be targeted and expanded.
(unless of course, there is an alternate explanation that indicates something different)


----------



## Id (Jul 19, 2010)

Keollyn said:


> The Wave Existence? Oh that's just mean



Zeed needs a lecture in humility.


----------



## Big Bοss (Jul 19, 2010)

Keollyn said:


> I only read what you sent me. Anything else changed?



Well people saying PAS is useless and that it can't alter probability of 0.

Then you have the other of Universal being being able to harm Xenogears even when he can endure the destruction of a dimension filled with WE energy.

O and that Fei isn't the WE



> The Wave Existence? Oh that's just mean


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 19, 2010)

That's not the portion that states phenomenon probability can match zero and still be created.

That's just verbose explanation of how Energy Phase Distribution works.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 19, 2010)

Id said:


> Hey guess what? since it?s the Xenoverse as a whole. Fie is not the only baddie dem digimon have to deal with. You basically set the stage for Zeed to confront Har directly.



And Uroboros who's a being made from Wave Energy. And Krelian who esentially became a Wave being like WoE.


----------



## 11wongjk2 (Jul 19, 2010)

Seyta said:


> Notably enough this statement made no sense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



hey seyta do u know what happens if zeed absorbs ENIAC and ABC?


----------



## Vicious (Jul 19, 2010)

Seyta said:


> ENIAC was the first Multiversal.
> It's the entity from which every Universe in the Digital World originally spawned, and is present in every Digital Universe.
> 
> However, it was inferior to Zeedmillenniummon, and called on Ryo to save it, which was pretty much the plot of Brave Tamer.


Actually, ABC was the original creator of all the DWs. ABC acts in ENAIC's shadow and protects the DWs in case something happens to ENIAC (like a back-up computer). Both probably have the same powers, and both are inferior to Zeed.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 19, 2010)

Id said:


> Zeed needs a lecture in humility.



Why did I think Star Ocean 3 when I read that? It's the same line they used before the fight with Crowsel.


----------



## Seyta (Jul 19, 2010)

Keollyn said:


> That's not the portion that states phenomenon probability can match zero and still be created.
> 
> That's just verbose explanation of how Energy Phase Distribution works.



Why on Earth did he give me that explanation then??



11wongjk2 said:


> hey seyta do u know what happens if zeed absorbs ENIAC and ABC?



He would simply have grown more powerful

I'm not sure who said he would have become omnipotent, but that wouldn't have been the case as a portion of his power was always with Ryo. Moon=Millenniummon explained it when he told Ryo that they were like "Ying and Yang" and that his own demise would be Ryo's demise.


----------



## Id (Jul 19, 2010)

Keollyn said:


> That's not the portion that states phenomenon probability can match zero and still be created.
> 
> That's just verbose explanation of how Energy Phase Distribution works.



This. 

Lets not forget that if said event does not exist for PAS to take effect, then PAS would literally create the desired event (as in create the Universe) to match Fie’s desire.


----------



## God (Jul 19, 2010)

Id said:


> This.
> 
> Lets not forget that if said event does not exist for PAS to take effect, then PAS would literally create the desired event (as in create the Universe) to match Fie?s desire.



And who's gonna go to this universe?


----------



## 11wongjk2 (Jul 19, 2010)

Seyta said:


> Why on Earth did he give me that explanation then??
> 
> 
> 
> ...



so did the game say anything about if ryo gets absorbed as well?

anyway it seems like the digimons are going to lose


----------



## Big Bοss (Jul 19, 2010)

Seyta said:


> -snip-



Right did you read this?



> Zohar continues to select from among many different phenomena and how is this applied to the time axis? that time, contains both the beginning and the end of time simultaneously, the ratio 0 of the possible phenomena is not separate from this universe, but a separate universe is created.the beginning of that universe starts with the Big Bang and the rest is largely a mystery.





> And Uroboros who's a being made from Wave Energy. And Krelian who esentially became a Wave being like WoE.



true.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 19, 2010)

Cubey said:


> And who's gonna go to this universe?



Meaning Fei's wishes become reality. You're stuck with him. It was explained in that comic Graf posted.


----------



## Seyta (Jul 19, 2010)

Vicious said:


> Actually, ABC was the original creator of all the DWs. ABC acts in ENAIC's shadow and protects the DWs in case something happens to ENIAC (like a back-up computer). Both probably have the same powers, and both are inferior to Zeed.



Really?
Which game was that explained in?

I had to use translations for all the Adventure series since they were never released in the US


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jul 19, 2010)

Okay it seems the thread has begun to get going since knowledgeable posters from both sides are present.  Did'nt know Zeed made two other Multiversals look inferior, he moves up in power.


----------



## God (Jul 19, 2010)

Zeed would just warp reality back


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 19, 2010)

Seyta said:


> Why on Earth did he give me that explanation then??



Because it still defines how PAS works. It isn't an inaccurate gauge of its capabilities, so it isn't wrong to post that.

It's just probably not what your specifically looking for.


----------



## Id (Jul 19, 2010)

Cubey said:


> And who's gonna go to this universe?


Don't worry, it gets taken care off by PAS. 

Keo correct me if I am wrong. PAS will create the desired event, and shift the current universe with new universe.  Neat huh?


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 19, 2010)

Cubey said:


> Zeed would just warp reality back



And Fei creates a new reality. It'll be a stalemate.


----------



## God (Jul 19, 2010)

But the rest of the universe gets utterly shitstomped and Fei wont be able to do anything to anyone else if he's stalemating Zeed


----------



## Id (Jul 19, 2010)

basch71 said:


> And Fei creates a new reality. It'll be a stalemate.



Or the Zohar Modifier could absorb Zeed.


----------



## Seyta (Jul 19, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> Right did you read this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes. It orchestrates a case in which a separate Universe is created in order to manifest the conditions under which the scenario could occur.

This won't work on any entities who are present in several Universes at once.


----------



## Big Bοss (Jul 19, 2010)

Or someone can actually prove Zeed can actually do what PAS can no?


----------



## Fang (Jul 19, 2010)

Isn't Zeed completely beyond the Digimon multiverse?


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 19, 2010)

Cubey said:


> But the rest of the universe gets utterly shitstomped and Fei wont be able to do anything to anyone else if he's stalemating Zeed



Zeed vs

WoE
Fei in Xenogears
Uroboros
Krelian 
and essentially Deus since it merged with the Zohar and operates the same way Xenogears does.


----------



## Id (Jul 19, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Why did I think Star Ocean 3 when I read that? It's the same line they used before the fight with Crowsel.


Does a vid exist so I can look at it? 


basch71 said:


> And Uroboros who's a being made from Wave Energy. And Krelian who esentially became a Wave being like WoE.



Yup, Fei, and Har aren't the only big boyz.


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 19, 2010)

Id said:


> Don't worry, it gets taken care off by PAS.
> 
> Keo correct me if I am wrong. PAS will create the desired event, and shift the current universe with new universe.  Neat huh?



Pretty much. That's why even Zohar can shift through infinite ones. Remember that it was even finding events from the wave dimension?


----------



## God (Jul 19, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> Or someone can actually prove Zeed can actually do what PAS can no?



He doesn't have to, his reality warping is enough.



basch71 said:


> Zeed vs
> 
> WoE
> Fei in Xenogears
> ...



How many of them are multiversal?


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 19, 2010)

Why is this only directed to Fei?

Wave Existence, hello <------


----------



## 11wongjk2 (Jul 19, 2010)

Can they even touch Ogudomon? Ogudomon makes the power anything with malic offset

well this ability depends on the whether the characters of xenogears has any malic or not but with bloodlust on, i seriuosly doubt they don't


----------



## Big Bοss (Jul 19, 2010)

Cubey said:


> He doesn't have to, his reality warping is enough.



In fact he has because Fei and the WE can altear phenomea with 0 probability and Zeed being able to reality warp doesn't mean he can match that.



> WoE
> Fei in Xenogears
> Uroboros
> Krelian



Multiversal.


----------



## God (Jul 19, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> In fact he has because Fei and the WE can altear phenomea with 0 probability and Zeed being able to reality warp doesn't mean he can match that.



What the hell kind of logic is this? Of course it does because he can WARP REALITY.



> Multiversal.



Zeed
ABC
ENIAC

A mere one character less.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 19, 2010)

Id said:


> Does a vid exist so I can look at it?
> QUOTE]
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnK3yN5aW9A&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]
> ...


----------



## Seyta (Jul 19, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> Or someone can actually prove Zeed can actually do what PAS can no?



He doesn't.
His power doesn't lie in altering probability at all.

However, PAS has never dealt with an Omnipresent Multiversal entity of Zeedmillenniummon's caliber.



basch71 said:


> Zeed
> ENIAC
> ABC
> Moon
> ...



Correction made above.

Quite frankly, I'm not arguing for either side in particular anymore.
At this point, I'm simply making corrections to whichever side I can until I can find conclusive proof for one to win.


----------



## Seyta (Jul 19, 2010)

Keollyn said:


> Why is this only directed to Fei?
> 
> Wave Existence, hello <------



Because earlier in this thread somebody argued that Fei WAS the Wave Existence and we took his word for it.


----------



## Big Bοss (Jul 19, 2010)

Cubey said:


> What the hell kind of logic is this? Of course it does because he can WARP REALITY.



So could Krelian, Deus and Uroboros and they couldn't defeat Fei.

See my point?


----------



## Id (Jul 19, 2010)

Seyta said:


> However, PAS has never dealt with an Omnipresent Multiversal entity of Zeedmillenniummon's caliber.



Actually it has.


----------



## Seyta (Jul 19, 2010)

Id said:


> Actually it has.



Which one of the characters listed was Omnipresent?


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 19, 2010)

Seyta said:


> Because earlier in this thread somebody argued that Fei WAS the Wave Existence and we took his word for it.




Fei has the power of the WE.


----------



## Id (Jul 19, 2010)

Seyta said:


> Which one of the characters listed was Omnipresent?



Har (WoE), the creator of the Xenoverse.


----------



## Big Bοss (Jul 19, 2010)

Seyta said:


> Because earlier in this thread somebody argued that Fei WAS the Wave Existence and we took his word for it.



Because he is.

Fei = WE avatar = having the same power.

What Keo is trying to say is that the WE can be put in this fight as a separated being too.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 19, 2010)

Id said:


> Har (WoE), the creator of the Xenoverse.



Krelian counts too since he becomes a Wave being and he was the main villain.


----------



## God (Jul 19, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> Because he is.
> 
> Fei = WE avatar = having the same power.
> 
> What Keo is trying to say is that the WE can be put in this fight as a separated being too.



Like I said earlier, being an avatar of a being does not place you at their level. Case in point, Thanos. You need either statements directly proving Fei = WoE's power in its entirety or multiversal feats. Otherwise we go by his regular universe stuff.



Grαhf said:


> So could Krelian, Deus and Uroboros and they couldn't defeat Fei.
> 
> See my point?



Did they actually ever try to directly warp him? And were they on a level = to WoE, because that's where Zeed is as far as this thread's concerned.


----------



## Seyta (Jul 19, 2010)

Keollyn said:


> Fei has the power of the WE.



This would have clarified things much sooner.
We were all under the impression that the bolded portion was true, and that they were united as a single entity:



Demon Of Elru said:


> It doesn't matter the number because *the WE is Multiversal Fei is the WE* and PAS can alter infinite future phenomena--even those with probabilities as low as 0.
> 
> So it doesn't matter they don't have the power to negate or beat that.


----------



## Id (Jul 19, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> Because he is.
> 
> Fei = WE avatar = having the same power.
> 
> What Keo is trying to say is that the WE can be put in this fight as a separated being too.



Har should be a valid contender separate from Fie. 

When he was released from his fleshy enchantment. Har ascended back to the higher dimension, with Fie retaining the power of the WE.


----------



## Vicious (Jul 19, 2010)

Seyta said:


> Really?
> Which game was that in?
> 
> I had to use translations for all the Adventure series since they were never released in the US


Yes, in Brave Tamer.

After Zeed forced ENIAC to shut down, he tried to control the past but couldn't, a unseen force was preventing him to change the past to his whim - it was ABC. ENIAC (he barely had any power left) explained to Ryo that he was not truly the first computer. ABC, the real first computer, was the foundation of all the DWs that he built on. They were created at the same time, although the existence of ABC is only a rumor to most. ABC acts in ENIAC's shadow and protects the DWs in case something like this happens.

I used a emulator and used Ajora's site to help me out.


----------



## God (Jul 19, 2010)

Well I'm out of here.


----------



## Big Bοss (Jul 19, 2010)

Cubey said:


> Like I said earlier, being an avatar of a being does not place you at their level. Case in point, Thanos. You need either statements directly proving Fei = WoE's power in its entirety or multiversal feats. Otherwise we go by his regular universe stuff.





The WE saying it "my power went into you"



> Did they actually ever try to directly warp him? And were they on a level = to WoE, because that's where Zeed is as far as this thread's concerned.



Krelian yeah and he couldn't.


----------



## 11wongjk2 (Jul 19, 2010)

This is proabably the last argument that is valid for digimon side

What happens if omegamon x deletes the fractal code of zeed? would WE and all those characters from xenogear die or will they survive?


----------



## Id (Jul 19, 2010)

Cubey said:


> Like I said earlier, being an avatar of a being does not place you at their level. Case in point, Thanos. You need either statements directly proving Fei = WoE's power in its entirety or multiversal feats. Otherwise we go by his regular universe stuff.


I agree to a certain extant. But you need to keep in mind one thing. 

The description of how PAS works, comes directly by how the avatars interact with it. So all this talk of reality warping, and creating universe or effecting the multiverse are examples of how the Avatars make use PAS.


----------



## Big Bοss (Jul 19, 2010)

Id said:


> Har should be a valid contender separate from Fie.
> 
> When he was released from his fleshy enchantment. Har ascended back to the higher dimension, with Fie retaining the power of the WE.



Yeah.

So WE, Fei, Krelian, Uroboros how is Digimon going to win again?


----------



## Seyta (Jul 19, 2010)

I just need some sort of definitive clarification on the omnipresence of one of the Multiversal characters to know that Zeedmillenniummon loses.

Without it though, the Wave Existence dealing with them doesn't automatically give it the capability to deal with Zeed.


----------



## Seyta (Jul 19, 2010)

Vicious said:


> Yes, in Brave Tamer.
> 
> After Zeed forced ENIAC to shut down, he tried to control the past but couldn't, a unseen force was preventing him to change the past to his whim - it was ABC. ENIAC (he barely had any power left) explained to Ryo that he was not truly the first computer. ABC, the real first computer, was the foundation of all the DWs that he built on. They were created at the same time, although the existence of ABC is only a rumor to most. ABC acts in ENIAC's shadow and protects the DWs in case something like this happens.
> 
> I used a emulator and used Ajora's site to help me out.



Thanks for that.
There were a couple portions that didn't translate well for me and that was probably one of them


----------



## Id (Jul 19, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> This is proabably the last argument that is valid for digimon side
> 
> What happens if omegamon x deletes the fractal code of zeed? would WE and all those characters from xenogear die or will they survive?



Elaborate why Zeeds death would effect the Xeno-group?


----------



## 11wongjk2 (Jul 19, 2010)

http://www.onemanga.com/Witch_Hunter/12/27/

i would like to use the feat of the digvice blocking a univer/multiverse buster to buy time for omegamon x to deletezeed's fractal code



Id said:


> Elaborate why Zeeds death would effect the Xeno-group?




zeed doesn't die if his fractal code is deleted. Instead when the fractal code is deleted, mere existence ends


----------



## Id (Jul 19, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> zeed doesn't die if his fractal code is deleted. Instead when the fractal code is deleted, mere existence ends


Well factor in that the WoE is credited to giving birth to existence.


----------



## Big Bοss (Jul 19, 2010)

Id said:


> Well factor in that the WoE is credited to giving birth to existence.



And by inadvertence just by the spilling of some drops.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 19, 2010)

Seyta said:


> Thanks for that.
> There were a couple portions that didn't translate well for me and that was probably one of them



I checked if there were english patches and none. (bastards) And I didn't know Ryo was from Brave Tamers. He kicked ass with Cyberdramon in season 3 and he was my favorite character.


----------



## 11wongjk2 (Jul 19, 2010)

Id said:


> Well factor in that the WoE is credited to giving birth to existence.



Does this mean that you are going to agree that zeed's fractal code would kill everyone except from WE?


----------



## Id (Jul 19, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> And by inadvertence just by the spilling of some drops.



He is not called Wave *Existence* for nothing.


----------



## Seyta (Jul 19, 2010)

basch71 said:


> I checked if there were english patches and none. (bastards) And I didn't know Ryo was from Brave Tamers. He kicked ass with Cyberdramon in season 3 and he was my favorite character.



You might need to look around more.
I found mine several years ago (albeit it was translated somewhat crudely), and some of the links are dead now.

Ryo was from all three Anode/Cathode --> Brave
The problem is that none of them were released in the US.

It's the whole reason the games and the Millenniummon family are considered canonical to begin with, since there was a single flashback scene from the anime in which Ken dreamed about Ryo defeating Millenniummon.


----------



## Big Bοss (Jul 19, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> Does this mean that you are going to agree that zeed's fractal code would kill everyone except from WE?



It wouldn't affect Fei either since he has the power of the WE, Krelian became a wave being and Uroboros is there as well.


----------



## 11wongjk2 (Jul 19, 2010)

so in the end, it's still one multiveral vs three or four multiversal

I must try out xenogears someday as well


----------



## Fang (Jul 19, 2010)

There's more than one multiversal entity in Digimon.


----------



## 11wongjk2 (Jul 19, 2010)

TWF said:


> There's more than one multiversal entity in Digimon.



fractal code kills them along with the other characters


----------



## Id (Jul 19, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> Does this mean that you are going to agree that zeed's fractal code would kill everyone except from WE?



Well I figured once the Multiversal Abstracts clash (Har vs Zeed), only those of similar power level would still stand alive, and well. 

Har
Kreilen 
Fei/Xenogears
Uroboros
KrelianF 
And possibly Deus.

Note: Deus is a tough cookie, he has the power of the incomplete contact (Grahf), Elly, and the Zohar Modifier. You need someone above universal status to destroy him. 

So yes I can see weaker characters die from Zeeds death, if it brings death to existence. But those mentioned are in some shape, or formed hooked to the Wave Existence, I seriously doubt they would effected at all.


----------



## Gig (Jul 19, 2010)

I'd love to see some multiversal feats for Fei and Xenogears other than Hyberbole 

Maybe showing us it blowing up a universe would be a nice start


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 19, 2010)

Gig said:


> I'd love to see some multiversal feats for Fei and Xenogears other than Hyberbole
> 
> Maybe showing us it blowing up a universe would be a nice start



How about destroying Uroboros who is multiversal

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgXH8IbfsEQ[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Gig (Jul 19, 2010)

basch71 said:


> How about destroying Uroboros who is multiversal
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgXH8IbfsEQ[/YOUTUBE]



Nice boss fight where did it destroy the universe ? 

How about proving Uroboros is Multiversal do you have a video of it destroying the multiverse ?


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 19, 2010)

Gig said:


> Nice boss fight where did it destroy the universe ?



Uroboros is a being made of Wave Energy (the stuff that can make universes with a few droplets). And Fei in Xenogears destroys her. After that, the Path of Sephirot (the place they're in) which exists in the upper dimension is destroyed soon after.


----------



## Fang (Jul 19, 2010)

So no actual evidence or proof, only circumstantial supposition and theory? Cool story.


----------



## Gig (Jul 19, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Uroboros is a being made of Wave Energy (the stuff that can make universes with a few droplets). And Fei in Xenogears destroys her. After that, the Path of Sephirot (the place they're in) which exists in the upper dimension is destroyed soon after.


So ? I'm made of enough matter to destroy countless cities so I must be a multi city buster 

Why can't you provide what I asked for do these feats not exsist ?


----------



## God (Jul 19, 2010)

Where did Urboros use a multiversal attack on Fei, and where did Fei use a multiversal attack on Urboros? If neither of them did, they dont have multiversal durability or power and should get beaten by Zeed easily.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 19, 2010)

Gig said:


> I'm made of enough matter to destroy countless cities so I must be a multi city buster, why can't you provide what I asked for do these feats not exsist ?



By having the power to destroy that. Xenogears has access to Wave Energy as a source of power which has it stuck at infinite and this is it's strength. And again



> Xenogears - Destroyed Deus, Zohar and Urboros without much effort. For understanding of how powerful that would make him, know that the big bang couldn't even destroy Zohar--Zohar empowers Deus to maximum output when he merged and Urboros eclipse Zohar/Deus in power



Not to mention Fei has WoE's power, and said this straight to his face on screen.


----------



## Gig (Jul 19, 2010)

basch71 said:


> By having the power to destroy that. Xenogears has access to Wave Energy as a source of power which has it stuck at infinite and this is it's strength. And again


So? Getter Robo has infinite power yet it's not multiversal now can you provide me with feats or are you going to keep wasting my time ?



basch71 said:


> Not to mention Fei has WoE's power, and said this straight to his face on screen.


So? What feats does he have with this WoE power ?


----------



## Id (Jul 19, 2010)

Gig said:


> So? What feats does he have with this WoE power ?



Fie bonded with a higher dimensional being, which is WE.


----------



## God (Jul 19, 2010)

basch71 said:


> By having the power to destroy that. Xenogears has access to Wave Energy as a source of power which has it stuck at infinite and this is it's strength. And again



Yes, he has access to WE, but that doesn't mean he's multiversal. Silver Surfer has access to Galactus' Power Cosmic, but he's not > Galactus 



> Xenogears - Destroyed Deus, Zohar and Urboros without much effort. For understanding of how powerful that would make him, know that the big bang couldn't even destroy Zohar--Zohar empowers Deus to maximum output when he merged and Urboros eclipse Zohar/Deus in power



So powerscaling and stacking? All you said is Fei > Urboros > Zohar/Deus > Big Bang, so in other words Fei > Big Bang, or Fei = universal+

Not multiversal.



> Not to mention Fei has WoE's power, and said this straight to his face on screen.



So?


----------



## Gig (Jul 19, 2010)

Id said:


> Fie bonded with a higher dimensional being, which is WE.


Your point is ? 

Anubis in stargate who was a higher dimensional being bonded with a random Russian soldier, that russian is obviously universal now even though he has no feats


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 19, 2010)

> So? What feats does he have with this WoE power ?





> So? Getter Robo has infinite power yet it's not multiversal now can you provide me with feats or are you going to keep wasting my time with statements ?





I gave you feats, you're not getting it. Uroboros is made out of the same stuff WoE is which is Wave Energy. With that power, someone like WoE creates universes by existing. Xenogears has enough power output to destroy such a being.

And Fei's power with it is that whole PAS thing that was explained earlier which is creating a new reality by wishing for it even if the probability is not zero.



> Fie bonded with a higher dimensional being, which is WE.



This


----------



## Id (Jul 19, 2010)

Gig said:


> Your point is ?
> 
> Anubis in stargate who was a higher dimensional being bonded with a random Russian soldier, that russian is obviously universal now even though he has no feats



The feat was mentioned, he produced enough force to liberate WE from the Zohar (The same Zohar Modifier that tanked the big bang). And he defeated a higher dimensional being with ease.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 19, 2010)

Cubey said:


> Yes, he has access to WE, but that doesn't mean he's multiversal. Silver Surfer has access to Galactus' Power Cosmic, but he's not > Galactus
> 
> 
> 
> ...




WoE, the being who can create universes
Fei, WoE's avatar who has this same exact power
Xenogears, the machine who runs on infinite Wave Energy with Fei as the pilot.


----------



## Gig (Jul 19, 2010)

basch71 said:


> *I gave you feats, *you're not getting it. Uroboros is made out of the same stuff WoE is which is Wave Energy. With that power, someone like WoE creates universes by existing. Xenogears has enough power output to destroy such a being.


You are not giving me feats you are giving me statements which are completely different. 

Cell claims to have enough Ki to destroy the solar system, that is a statement not a feat. 

Piccolo Daimou nuked a city on panel which we get to clearly see, that is a feat. 

What you are doing is providing statements which has never been accepted in the OBD



basch71 said:


> And Fei's power with it is that whole PAS thing that was explained earlier which is creating a new reality by wishing for it even if the probability is not zero


Can you provide feats of him doing this ?

Cool story bro, now can you show me him using the power to destroy a universe ?


----------



## God (Jul 19, 2010)

> Yes, he has access to WE, but that doesn't mean he's multiversal. Silver Surfer has access to Galactus' Power Cosmic, but he's not > Galactus, or multiversal



**


----------



## Id (Jul 19, 2010)

basch71 said:


> WoE, the being who can create universes
> Fei, WoE's avatar who has this same exact power
> Xenogears, the machine who runs on infinite Wave Energy with Fei as the pilot.


Gig is more of focused on what Fie can do, and less on the extant of his empowerment. 

ABC logic does not need to be applied. Perfect Works state PAS allows Fie to shift if not out right create a universe to meet the desired event.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 19, 2010)

Id said:


> Gig is more of focused on what Fie can do, and less on the extant of his empowerment.
> 
> ABC logic does not need to be applied. Perfect Works state PAS allows Fie to shift if not out right create a universe to meet the desired event.



Even though he destroyed Uroboros which is his strongest output in power done in game.


----------



## Id (Jul 19, 2010)

Gig said:


> Can you provide feats of him doing this ?




*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Fang (Jul 19, 2010)

I'm not seeing feats, are you Gig?


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Jul 19, 2010)

I'm not sure why this argument is still going on?

We know Wave Existence creates universes.
We know Fei has the WE's power. All of it. The Wave Existence wanted Fei to destroy Zohar and free it so why the heck would it only give him some?
(how you get some out of infinity is anyone's guess but this is fiction)

So Fei should logically equal the WE in power.


----------



## Gig (Jul 19, 2010)

TWF said:


> I'm not seeing feats, are you Gig?



Nope just statements


----------



## God (Jul 19, 2010)

Like I said not being killed by the Big Bang only puts your durability at universal+ not multiversal.


----------



## Id (Jul 19, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Even though he destroyed Uroboros which is his strongest output in power done in game.



You have to dumb it down for anyone to understand what it means to beat Uroboros, or why it would be considered a Multiversal entity in the first place. 

Part of it has to be for being made of WoE. But most importantly for the fact that it is WoE being, that exist beyond the 4th dimension. They are higher dimensional entities.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Jul 19, 2010)

In actuality, I do not have a physical form. I am an 'Existence' of a higher dimension. A place you cannot perceive... But in terms you understand, it is a world where everything acts as kinds of waves...
*It is the source of this four-dimensional universe...* The place where time and space is controlled... The fluctuating void... The 'Wave Existence'."

+

"my power went into [Fei]"

So..1+1=2?


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 19, 2010)

Cubey said:


> Like I said not being killed by the Big Bang only puts your durability at universal+ not multiversal.



The Zohar is Universal+.


----------



## God (Jul 19, 2010)

Right and Zeed is MULTIversal. The only one here who could possibly count as multiversal here is WoE, and even he doesn't have durability feats.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Jul 19, 2010)

A bodiless existence from a higher dimension; it exists in the form of "waves" and thus, cannot be perceived, in its normal state, by the human mind.  *The universe originally existed in this dimension of waves before becoming the universe we are familiar with,* however, the boundary between the dimensions was broken by Zohar, and the Wave Existence trickled down
 into our three dimensional world."

Abel, the Contact:
"A mysterious boy accidentally stumbled upon a top-secret military research installation, an upon contact with the Wave Existence, he was imbued with unfathomable powers."

This is Word of God. It's as good as any feat.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 19, 2010)

Cubey said:


> Right and Zeed is MULTIversal. The only one here who could possibly count as multiversal here is WoE, and even he doesn't have durability feats.



Wave beings and upper dimensional entities are multiversal sinced what they're made of creates universes by existing.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Jul 19, 2010)

Cubey said:


> Right and Zeed is MULTIversal. The only one here who could possibly count as multiversal here is WoE, and even he doesn't have durability feats.



But the Zohar <<<<<< Fei = WE.

Zohar = Universal durability but it's also much weaker than Fei.
Powerscaling is necessary but it works here I think.


----------



## God (Jul 19, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Wave beings and upper dimensional entities are multiversal sinced what they're made of creates universes by existing.



I'm made up of atoms which can blow up cities. Clearly I'm a multi-city buster.

When has Zohar ever used this power to do something on a multiversal scale, and why is PAS multiversal when all it does is create ONE universe? Omegamon X should be able to cancel it despite not being multiversal since neither Fei nor Zohar are.

And they dont have multiversal durability to survive Zeed's attack.



Zaelapolopollo said:


> But the Zohar <<<<<< Fei = WE.
> 
> Zohar = Universal durability but it's also much weaker than Fei.
> Powerscaling is necessary but it works here I think.



That doesn't prove Fei's durability is multiversal at all.


----------



## Weltall8000 (Jul 19, 2010)

> In actuality, I do not have a physical form. I am *an* 'Existence' of a higher dimension. A place you cannot perceive... But in terms you understand, it is a world where everything acts as kinds of waves...
> It is the source of this four-dimensional universe... The place where time and space is controlled... The fluctuating void... The 'Wave Existence'."



From the quote, he seems to indicate he is an entity that inhabits this other dimension, not that he is or wields the power of that entire dimension.

And again, from the game anyways (I've never had the pleasure of reading the perfect works, if something contradicts I'd be interested in seeing a quote on the matter from it) nothing ever really establishes that it can destroy the universe or multiverse.



> But the Zohar <<<<<< Fei = WE.
> 
> Zohar = Universal durability but it's also much weaker than Fei.
> Powerscaling is necessary but it works here I think.



But if that's the case, why can Zohar trap and confine "Wave Existence" against its will for thousands of years, forcing it to find others to help free it?


----------



## Id (Jul 19, 2010)

Cubey said:


> I'm made up of atoms which can blow up cities. Clearly I'm a multi-city buster.
> 
> When has Zohar ever used this power to do something on a multiversal scale, and why is PAS multiversal when all it does is create ONE universe? Omegamon X should be able to cancel it despite not being multiversal since neither Fei nor Zohar are.


I would say PAS effecting Har would count as a Multiversal feat. 

As Perfect Works would explain. Zohar is a “Wish Machine”. When scientist desired to have the most potent/limitless energy source, Zohar met the desired wish (Through PAS) and shifted Har from the higher Plane to the lower dimension. 



Cubey said:


> That doesn't prove Fei's durability is multiversal at all.



The final setting in the game took place in the “Path of Sephiroth”, the home of the Higher Dimension entities filled with WoE matter (Keo correct me if I am wrong). Fie, and Elly survived the violent explosion inside that dimension. If you need a point of reference. Look at spills of the WoE creating a big bang giving birth to the lower dimension.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 19, 2010)

Cubey said:


> I'm made up of atoms which can blow up cities. Clearly I'm a multi-city buster.
> 
> When has Zohar ever used this power to do something on a multiversal scale, and why is PAS multiversal when all it does is create ONE universe? Omegamon X should be able to cancel it despite not being multiversal since neither Fei nor Zohar are.
> 
> ...



Did you miss the durability feat I posted last night of them tanking the explosion of the Path of Sephirot?

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67RDfn49ZGo&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]

I will requote myself



> 0:00-4:32
> 
> The Path of Sephirot is filled with Wave Energy (the stuff where only a few droplets worth can create Universes) and they tanked the explosion. After hand Fei with Elly ride Xenogears back down to the planet.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 19, 2010)

Weltall8000 said:


> And again, from the game anyways (I've never had the pleasure of reading the perfect works, if something contradicts I'd be interested in seeing a quote on the matter from it) nothing ever really establishes that it can destroy the universe or multiverse.



Perfect Works pretty much explains the whole game from A to Z.


----------



## Weltall8000 (Jul 19, 2010)

> Perfect Works pretty much explains the whole game from A to Z.



As I understand it, yes, that's what I hear. Matter of fact, do you have any kind of link to a good English translation of it? I'd like to read it.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Jul 19, 2010)

Weltall8000 said:


> As I understand it, yes, that's what I hear. Matter of fact, do you have any kind of link to a good English translation of it? I'd like to read it.





It's long and mostly boring in my opinion. But it does have some good info.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Jul 19, 2010)

But is that legal?
Tsk tsk. I don't support pirates!


----------



## Weltall8000 (Jul 19, 2010)

> But is that legal?
> Tsk tsk. I don't support pirates!



Generally, neither do I. However, as I understand it, the company is defunct...so, raspberries.


----------



## Id (Jul 19, 2010)

Weltall8000 said:


> But if that's the case, why can Zohar trap and confine "Wave Existence" against its will for thousands of years, forcing it to find others to help free it?


The Zohar is an total enigma in the Xenoverse. No one know who made it, or where it came from. Just that it predates the universe, and is completely perfect in its function.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Jul 19, 2010)

Weltall8000 said:


> Generally, neither do I. However, as I understand it, the company is defunct...so, raspberries.





lol I was joking anyway.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 19, 2010)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> lol I was joking anyway.



It's the pirate way. lol


----------



## Id (Jul 19, 2010)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> But is that legal?
> Tsk tsk. I don't support pirates!





Weltall8000 said:


> Generally, neither do I. However, as I understand it, the company is defunct...so, raspberries.



I am no lawyer, and can not comment in the legality of this document.  However I totally recommend  it, for its usefulness.


----------



## Demon Of Elru (Jul 19, 2010)

> I'm not sure why this argument is still going on?



-snip-

Is funny how TWF made an attempt of spite thread against Xenogears but it backfired lol.

The Zohar doesn't have universal durability the fact that to be able to destroy the Zohar Fei needed all the power of the WE is enough proof of his Durability being in Multiversal range but if you can understand that then your butthurt is strong.

Also forgetting about PAS and how no one in digimon can geat past that lol

the fact of Xenogears tanking the path of Sephiroth which is filled with wave energy the one that creates universes with drops, so again if you don't understand how much durability that gives to Xenogears lol again.

Also the WE created existence by inadvertence with a mere drop don't be stupid Cubey if a mere drop of a infinite being created universes then what the fuck do you think his full power will be?...don't answer because you will clearly fail in the answer like with Nasuverse lol Cubey.

for the  people:

WE = Fei = Multiversal

Xenogears = Multiversal Durability by tanking the path of Sephiroth

PAS = Multiversal

Zohar = low-end Multiversal Durability because it was needed all the power of the WE to destroy it.

Uroboros = Multiversal because is a being created with Wave energy.

Krelian = Multiversal because he is a wave being

TWF, Gig and Cubey go play Xenogears and read perfect works before trying to "debunk" things you don't know nothing about, especially Cubey and TWF that do it all the time and fail.


----------



## Weltall8000 (Jul 19, 2010)

> lol I was joking anyway.



I wasn't.

And I'm in the camp of Ninjas > Pirates.



> I am no lawyer, and can not comment in the legality of this document. However I totally recommend it, for its usefulness.



If I go down, I'm taking you and your ring of Xenogears contraband with me!


----------



## God (Jul 19, 2010)

Demon Of Elru said:


> BAAAWWWW CUBEY GIG TWF BEING MEAN BECAUSE XENOGEARS GETS WANKED BAWWWWW





But anyways



Demon Of Elru said:


> Because TWF is butthurt of GER losing to Fei and Cubey and Gig are butthurt because Digimon lost pretty simple.



So Xenogears loses? Ok then.



> Is funny how TWF made an attempt of spite thread against Xenogears but it backfired lol.



Actually Id was the one who made a spite against Giogio after TWF made this thread out of boredom.



> The Zohar doesn't have universal durability the fact that to be able to destroy the Zohar Fei needed all the power of the WE is enough proof of his Durability being in Multiversal range but if you can understand that then your butthurt is strong.



Who the fuck can understand anything in your posts? His durability isn't multiversal. We cant quantify the Path of Sephiroth's WE, so you can't say how much he took.



> Also forgetting about PAS and how no one in digimon can geat past that lol



All Delete 

t





> he fact of Xenogears tanking the path of Sephiroth which is filled with wave energy the one that creates universes with drops, so again if you don't understand how much durability that gives to Xenogears lol again.



So go ahead and calc that for me real quick. Quantify how many drops were in there and exactly how much durability it gives him. Until then, he's universal+



> Also the WE created existence by inadvertence with a mere drop don't be stupid Cubey if a mere drop of a infinite being created universes then what the fuck do you think his full power will be?...



Gee I dont know, speculate some more why dont you.



> don't answer because you will clearly fail in the answer like with Nasuverse lol Cubey.



Oh you mean how Gilgamesh ISN'T a planetbuster? Ok then.



> fot the butthurt people:
> 
> WE = Fei = Multiversal



Nope.



> Xenogears = Multiversal Durability by tanking the path of Sephiroth
> 
> PAS = Multiversal



Nope.



> Zohar = low-end Multiversal Durability because it was needed all the power of the WE to destroy it.



Nope.



> Uroboros = Multiversal because is a being created with Wave energy.



Nope.



> Krelian = Multiversal because he is a wave being



Nope.



> TWF, Gig and Cubey go play Xenogears and read perfect works before trying to "debunk" things you don't know nothing about, especially Cubey and TWF that do it all the time and fail.



Shut up Unknown.


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## Id (Jul 19, 2010)

Children behave.


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## Keollyn (Jul 19, 2010)

Oh the denial on the last couple of pages is typically wonderful.

I've been over all of this stuff about Xenogears for ages and now we're back again on this denial trip?

I'm sorry, but I'm not about to go over the same things again because people don't take 'establishments' all of a sudden (Gold Roger is now weaker than Ussop according to the denial crew)


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## Fang (Jul 19, 2010)

I still haven't seen any evidence purporting anything you guys have claimed. Also deleting my post doesn't help anything for you.


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## Id (Jul 19, 2010)

Keollyn said:


> Oh the denial on the last couple of pages is typically wonderful.
> 
> I've been over all of this stuff about Xenogears for ages and now we're back again on this denial trip?
> 
> I'm sorry, but I'm not about to go over the same things again because people don't take 'establishments' all of a sudden (Gold Roger is now weaker than Ussop according to the denial crew)



You know we've been on the defensive for 10 pages. Its time for Zeed to show his ability to spam spam/tank/manipulate these multiversal claims.


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## Seyta (Jul 19, 2010)

This is still going on?

Anyways, I can probably guarantee you now that you won't find any sort of video evidence you're looking for.

Anode/Cathode Tamer, D-1 Tamers, and Brave Tamer were all released only in Japan on the Wonderswan:


Excluding me and Vicious, I doubt anyone else in the OBD has actually played through all three of these. (Even with the pirated copies I managed to get a few years ago, the partially incomplete translations made it so I was struggling through quite a bit of it)

The best I could probably get you is this:
Link removed

Basically the beginning is Moon=Millenniummon resurrecting himself through the timeline since he has complete control over time, and becoming Zeedmillenniummon.

ENIAC, the multiversal entity who was the backup for ABC pretty much explains the threat of Zeedmillenniummon.
I.E. He has become a Multiversal Entity with Omnipresence throughout the Digital World, and was going to take full control of the Digital World once he got ENIAC out of the way (logically the only thing that opposes a Multiversal is another Multiversal). Also, that Zeedmillenniummon was being restrained by a fractal code, since his raw power without it would collapse all the Digital Universes.

-------------------------------------------

What isn't on the video,
Zeedmilleniummon succeeds in killing of ENIAC, and then faces ABC and Ryo, and ends up making himself into Ryo's partner, and subsequently returns to the Tamers Universe instead of the Adventures Universe (which is why Ryo had appearances in both series)

His abilities were summed up nicely enough in the Wiki.

He has:

-Omnipresence throughout the Digimon Multiverse
--This includes Adventures, Tamers, Frontier, Data, Xros, Savers, Chaos and all the others that I don't have the attention span to call up right now
-Multiversal-Level Destructive Capacity (His attacks were blowing Universes to smithereens, and he overpowered the two Multiversal entities who created and controlled the Digital Worlds)
-Complete control over time
-Creation abilities. He brought the Chaos Zone into existence
-Existence outside of Space and Time. When he collapses them he's still fully functional.

In all seriousness, the only point that I was still arguing for was Omnipresence.
While he has that, it would take the most powerful Multiversal Entities to affect him at all.

I.E. Standard Multiversals like ABC and ENIAC who oversaw the various Digital Universes couldn't do a thing to him.


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## God (Jul 19, 2010)

Aaaaand they're back on the defensive


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## Id (Jul 20, 2010)

Its no fun, when its only onside submitting evidence. I think I am done, Keo, and Grahf can handle it from here on.


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## Big Bοss (Jul 20, 2010)

First the WE being Multiversal and Fei having all of his power:



Keollyn said:


> *The source of the -Contact- power: The Wave Existence.​*​​
> 
> *What is the Wave Existence?*
> 
> ...



Plus:




Grαhf said:


> Link removed
> 
> 
> 
> ...



PAS having Multiversal range and power:



Keollyn said:


> *Phenomenon Alteration: Supplying the power.*​
> The Phenomenon Alteration System, or PAS for short, is a system used by Zohar/WE to supply the world of Xenogears with energy. This is what was stated in Perfect Works (PE for short; refers to Xenogears source book)
> 
> 
> ...


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## Big Bοss (Jul 20, 2010)

Now let's use some images to explain things better so you can understand:

For example this is the WE:



A pretty good image describing what it is an infinite wave of energy and one drop of that energy:



Created the 4D universe, humankind and the souls of humankind:






> KRELIAN
> "Before the beginning of the universe, in the undulating waves of the higher dimension, all things were one.
> It was the waves spilling out from there that created this four-dimensional universe of ours.
> 'Humankind' and the 'Souls of Humankind' that were born from there, are merely leftovers of those spilled waves



Now with this let's explain what it means Xenogears enduring the destruction of a dimension filled with wave energy:

If *one drop* can created a 4D universe, now a entire path filled with that energy exploding how much damage do you think that is?

Now you will come and say:



> So go ahead and calc that for me real quick. Quantify how many drops were in there and exactly how much durability it gives him



Well I don't know how much drops there were but is a safe to say there where a shit load of drops in fact yeah we can say it is *unquantifiable* and we can also say that gives him Multiversal Durability and that is thanks to the WE and PAS.

Now don't come and say " you said it yourself it is *unquantifiable*" yeah I said it and for that exact same reason we can say he has Multiversal Durability thanks to the WE and PAS because we already prove what the WE is and how *one drop* can create a 4D universe and by inadvertence, so the explosion of several of that drops is clear what type of durability you need to tank that.

But let's continue:



Keollyn said:


> *The realm of possibilities: What could the -Contact- do?*​
> Okay, since we understand that Zohar/WE supplies energy to the -Contact- through inclination of the temporal axis, what benefits would this bring to the -Contact-?
> 
> Well if you understand that the most improbable future event can be realized, even a probability of zero, this helps you understand the yield in output.
> ...


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## Big Bοss (Jul 20, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> the Slave generators:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





			
				Id said:
			
		

> Krelian, and Uroboros are Multiversal being because they are Wave Entities. Wave entities are not confined by the 4th dimension. 4th Dimension being well our universe. They are entities of a higher dimensional plane. Similar to dc's 5D Imps.
> 
> Fie is a step up from them, because he not only gained the power of Har (WoE), but his -Contact- with the Zohar Modifier permits him to perform PAS. PAS Shuffles through infinite realties, if not create said realities to meet the avatars desire. If desired reality can not be met by 4th dimension, it will energy shift to higher planes of reality to meet the -Contacts- desire.
> 
> And yes Har is a bonafied Multiversal. Mere spills of his matter gave birth to the Xenoverse. The make up of a the Xenoverse, are infinite number of realties, and higher dimensional planes.



Well I think I am not forgetting anything and with this you should understand why Krelian and Uroboros are Multiversal.

And none of them could do nothing against Fei as well for the Zohar I don't know if we can put it in Multiversal Durability but is pretty close because the game and PW confirm that it was needed all the power of the WE to destroy it.

If after all of this info you keep in denial then to bad for you but all the claims have been backed up.

Also:



			
				Id said:
			
		

> Its no fun, when its only onside submitting evidence



true.


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## 11wongjk2 (Jul 20, 2010)

just something to say

creating universe=/=destroy universe


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## Big Bοss (Jul 20, 2010)

Stupid photobucket, I will change the host just one second.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 20, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> just something to say
> 
> creating universe=/=destroy universe



And Wave Energy has way more than enough power to create multiple universes casually. And Xenogears applies this kind of power for combat. None of the Omnigears the rest of the party have can do this. Only Xenogears alone and Deus does something similar since it merges with the Zohar which has this incredible power.

Uroboros is self explainitory for being an Upper Dimensional entity.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 20, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> Stupid photobucket, I will change the host just one second.



Use imageshack


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## Big Bοss (Jul 21, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Use imageshack



Yeah is better but I think I fixed the links.


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## 11wongjk2 (Jul 21, 2010)

Posting actual evidence for the digimon side is sort of impossible

As you know, most if not all feats of zeed is from a game called brave tamer. As much as i don't want to admit it, digimon doesn't have such a big fanbase in the western region when compared to pokemon. This is probably one of the reason why a walkthrough ofthe game was never posted onto youtube(well..maybe if i search in japanese, there might be results). 

Secondly, the game was released on a console known as wonderswan, which was never released in the western regions. well. To make it worse, the console was discontinued which makes posting the evidence even harder. 

I would have posted feats if it was possible since i have the game. But the console itself was destroyed by my brother making it impossible for me to post evidence

Anyway, I believe that xenogears would eventually win but not after one hell of a fight


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## ~BLAZxBLUE~ (Jul 21, 2010)

I guess Xenogears wins after one hell of a fight.


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