# Juubidara VS Jigen



## LawdyLawd (Oct 7, 2019)

From all we know so far from the manga. Who takes it?! 

Scenario 2: no 3rd eye/Shinju tree absorbed/IT chakra supply

scenario 3: Jigen’s body limit removed


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 7, 2019)

Jigen couldnt down Naruto or Sasuke...Both of whom have HILARIOUSLY inferior staying power/durability/regen compared to JJ Madara especially Sasuke...

Hed laugh at those stakes neg diff via regen and easily outlasts Jigens time limit before stomping him

Mugen also neg diffs as Jigen lacks a Rinnegan that we can tell

Limbo neg diffs as theres no evidence he has SPSM either, or usage of NE whatsoever really, which means TSBs can likely fuck him REALLY hard

Mokuton also negates chakra absorption

Jigen needs to be more fleshed out before stepping to JJ Madara, he counters Jigens displayed simplistic abilities way too hard


321ice said:


> Scenario 2: no 3rd eye/Shinju tree absorbed


None of this matters

Pre SHinju Madara could regen from Yagai...Jigens attacks that werent downing Sasuke arent doing shit to him


321ice said:


> IT chakra supply


You mean that thing Kaguya did that Madara didnt?

Yeah restricting that is a real blow to Madaras arsenal 


321ice said:


> scenario 3: Jigen’s body limit removed


Jigen still cant down Madara and still has no discernible counters to Mugen or Limbo or TSBs and lacks any regen himself that we know of, I see Madara wearing him down here at worst if not flat out oneshotting with Mugen

BFR followed by pot seal gg

jigen neg diffs

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## Hina uzumaki (Oct 7, 2019)

Juubidara gets blacked


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 7, 2019)

Hina uzumaki said:


> Juubidara gets blacked


Really wouldnt go that far bud

Madaras only threat is the pot seal BFR thing

If you ignore that, Jigen is actually hard countered across the board


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## Hina uzumaki (Oct 7, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Really wouldnt go that far bud
> 
> Madaras only threat is the pot seal BFR thing
> 
> If you ignore that, Jigen is actually hard countered across the board


Including the small rods jigen can put in juubidara? How do you propose he counters that?


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 7, 2019)

Hina uzumaki said:


> Including the small rods jigen can put in juubidara? How do you propose he counters that?


By literally fucking laughing at their feeble attempts to hurt him??? 

kiddo, those amazing rods needed to tag Sasuke in the dozens before they wore him down and even then the dude started the fight winded from 2 dimension hops at least...AND Sasuke doesnt have regen...Least of all on Madaras JJ level...

Black rods doing anything to Madara through is regen when Jigen was laying into Sasuke with them with every opportunity he had and still barely downed him before running out of time himself is a fantasy here

Madaras visual prowess is also well above Sasukes in terms of detection capability as hes teh only Dojutsu user in the entire franchise, KAGUYA INCLUDED, thats able to see through Shadow Clones...So Jigens little shrinking trick also gets negged here.

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## LawdyLawd (Oct 7, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Really wouldnt go that far bud
> 
> Madaras only threat is the pot seal BFR thing
> 
> If you ignore that, Jigen is actually hard countered across the board



I agree, just wondering if anyone thought different. But yeah perhaps later on.


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## xingi (Oct 7, 2019)

Jigen is stronger but his only way to win is BFR pot seal otherwise Madara outlasts

Round 3: jigen could likely kill Madara as kurama stated jigen could still kill Naruto despite his Regen but we know jigen didn't do this before his body was at its limit


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## xingi (Oct 7, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> If you ignore that, Jigen is actually hard countered across the board


Not in physical strength department


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 7, 2019)

xingi said:


> Jigen is stronger but his only way to win is BFR pot seal otherwise Madara outlasts
> 
> Round 3: jigen could likely kill Madara as kurama stated jigen could still kill Naruto despite his Regen but we know jigen didn't do this before his body was at its limit


Madaras regen >>> Narutos bud


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 7, 2019)

xingi said:


> Not in physical strength department


Doesnt matter

He can compete just as Sasuke and Naruto did 

And Jigens blows arent nearly hard enough to kill him

Moot point


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## xingi (Oct 7, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Madaras regen >>> Narutos bud


Didn't say otherwise I was just throwing it out there based on kurama statement


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## BlackHeartedImp (Oct 7, 2019)

Naruto and Sauce probably would've beaten Jigen if they weren't nerfed into Oblivion for tension. Same goes for Madara. Every subsequent Rinnegan user after Nagato has only used like 2 Rinnegan techniques at a time in a fight, and Naruto should have honestly laughed at those rods piercing him and been able to find micro Jigen.

Madara is effectively Naruto AND Sasuke power set wise. Jigen's shown abilities are rather lackluster.


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 7, 2019)

xingi said:


> Didn't say otherwise


Your point has no merit when taking that into consideration bud


xingi said:


> based on kurama statement


Kuramas statement was based on Narutos ability to heal

Which is far beneath Madaras

The comparison is flawed from the jump, Kuramas statement means nothing here


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## Trojan (Oct 7, 2019)

Hard to judge with the nerfs and all that shit... 
but if we take that at face value

Jigen > Naruto > Sasuke > Asspulldara
So, yeah, Jigen shits on him...


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## Charmed (Oct 7, 2019)

hmm...
...
hmm...

I'm sorry, I'm not impressed by Jigen at all. Adult Naruto and Adult Sasuke look very weak when compared to their WA versions.
In fact, JJ Mads was much more impressive than Jigen.

To me... Madara wins.

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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 7, 2019)

Hussain said:


> if we take that at face value
> 
> Jigen > Naruto > Sasuke > Asspulldara
> So, yeah, Jigen shits on him


Yup thats totally how matchups work

Naruto and Sasukes Taijutsu didnt work on Jigen?

Clearly hes now got an answer for everything Madara has that he legit cant counter 

Nearly the whole chain is wrong anyway even ignoring ABC logic

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## Trojan (Oct 7, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Naruto and Sasukes Taijutsu didnt work on Jigen?


in case you haven't noticed, they used Ninjutsu as well... 
BM, PS, Amaterasu, S/T jutsu, clones...etc 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Clearly hes now got an answer for everything Madara has that he legit cant counter


Naruto & Sasuke got more or less stomped. 

Meanwhile, Asspulldara was running as a rat from them when they were 17 years olds. The difference is obvious to anyone with open eyes...  

Even Kaguya who was stated to be far stronger than Asspulldara couldn't stomp them as Jigen did... 

now, you wanna call it nerfs or whatever, sure...
But it is what it is...


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## Perfect Susano (Oct 7, 2019)

Madara's vision would allow him to counteract Jigen's shrinking ability and even if he were to get hit by shrunken rods, it doesn't matter due to the Ten Tails' healing factor.

The Naruto & Sasuke comparison isn't really accurate since they had a one shot ability against him via Six Paths CT, so they didn't have to beat him in conventional combat.

Currently, Naruto doesn't have Truth-seeking orbs which allowed him to seal the movements of Limbo and they don't have seals, so if they were to fight Madara in their current states, the fight would look much different. Plus Madara realized the limitations of Amenotejikara before he ran for his other eye which he did not during their fight.

Jigen can't see Limbo and Madara would catch on to his shrinking ability. He can't kill Madara or even weaken him and in a hypothetical scenario where he's immobilized by rods which is unlikely dubious due to the likely difference in power from being an actual Ten Tails' jinchuriki, a Limbo swap should suffice in escaping. Even sealing Madara in his pot wouldn't work since he can't immobilize him long enough.

In a scenario where Jigen has access to Isshiki's full power, he should win as he's probably stronger than Kaguya.

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## kayz (Oct 7, 2019)

V1 Jigen can hold his own and may possibly win via bfr. 5/10

For V2 Jigen- With higher stats, Jigen's physical blows can weaken Madara, even with his regen. They are that powerful. Took three hits to significantly affect Naruto's chakra control, and two for Sasuke.
When Madara is sufficiently weakened, black rods stake him. Then pot-sealing.

Not sure whether Jigen can interact with Limbo. If not, that'll do Madara some good here. But I still see Jigen's triumph 8/10. He will always get to the original Madara with superior speed and portal teleport ability.


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## Onyx Emperor (Oct 7, 2019)

Juubidara blitzoneshots every boruto character.


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## Kisaitaparadise (Oct 7, 2019)

Y'all talking bout Madara having asspulls this dude Jigen has a load up his ass.


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 7, 2019)

Hussain said:


> in case you haven't noticed, they used Ninjutsu as well...


Nowhere near to their full extent 


Hussain said:


> BM, PS, Amaterasu, S/T jutsu, clones...etc


Again, nowhere near to the level their peaks are at

And they fought him with 99% Taijutsu, and not even their best Taijutsu as Sasuke barely used Ameno, there was no usage of chakra streaming, Naruto made no use of KBs until the fight was legit over, no notable attacks in BM/PS, no Rinnegan abilities, no Genjutsu etc

They didnt even fucking FLY, Naruto forgot he had sensory abilities, Hell dude Naruto hasnt used a single clone feint this entire fucking manga ffs, at least not to my recollection, and he sure as fuck didnt against Jigen.

Youre delusional as fuck if you think thats a fair example of their full Ninjutsu ability 


Hussain said:


> Naruto & Sasuke got more or less stomped.


Jigen was 2 seconds from being gassed out

Honestly had Sasuke been fresh from the start its arguable they could have done more and exhausted him earlier 

And if Naruto didnt fight with Kodachi induced plot retardation, he alone could have stalled Jigen out with KB spamming


Hussain said:


> Meanwhile, Asspulldara was running as a rat from them when they were 17 years olds


In a manga where their abilities are actually properly used and fleshed out

Not nerfed into the fucking floor to create a false sense of tension in a shitty series only delusional morons can enjoy 

17 year old WA Naruto and Sasuke are individually >>>> What Kodachi portrays A TEAM of Naruto and Sasuke capable of doing

Fact 

Madara walling the former pair with one Jutsu and getting off Mugen despite their attempts to stop him is genuinely orders of magnitude more impressive than jigen BARELY stalling out the clock in a BS PIS attrition "victory"


Hussain said:


> The difference is obvious to anyone with open eyes...


So when are you gonna use yours?


Hussain said:


> Even Kaguya who was stated to be far stronger than Asspulldara couldn't stomp them as Jigen did


Cuz they made avid use of their abilities and didnt fight with toddler tier IQ for a start


Hussain said:


> you wanna call it nerfs or whatever, sure...


You also call it nerfs kiddo


Hussain said:


> Hard to judge with the nerfs


At least be consitent with your white knighting of a such a shit series 


Hussain said:


> it is what it is


And what it is is you as always missing the fucking point Hussain

Even if we said Jigen was vastly physically stronger and faster than Kishi canon Naruto and Sasuke (which he isnt, as they could keep pace with him) he still wouldnt have the tools to beat Madara you moron

His punches couldnt KO Naruto, and they couldnt KO Sasuke, even after repeated fucking impalement they could still fight him off before getting exhausted mere MOMENTS before Jigen himself was exhausted

Madara who has hilariously higher durability and regen than either of them can literally stand there and let Jigen wail on him until Jigen kills himself

He has no way to kill Madara if he couldnt fucking kill Sasuke genius

Only reason this is half a debate is BFR

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## Onyx Emperor (Oct 7, 2019)

To let Jigen win here you need to:
- Disable Madara's regeneration.
- Fodbid Madara to use Juubi bombs.
- Equalize speed and durability stats.
- Equalize adult Sasuke's PS to prime Sasuke's PS.
- Remove Madara's Limbo.
- Give Jigen discount sage mode to damage through truth seeking orbs.
- Remove Madara's genjutsu because we don't even have any reason to think Jigen has immunities to genjutsu lol (Boruto manga's constant PIS where characters don't use 80% of their abilities doesn't count as a reason at all).


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 7, 2019)

Jigen has a Karma Seal across his entire body the forum keeps ignoring that , obviously hearing from Kashin that’s what places him out of Naruto’s league and right now we know jack shit about it but based upon how casually he’s fucking then up in CQC I would say there is nothing Madara is doing to him in close and you have to consider dude has Juubi as a pet and still wants a Karma Seal using vessel which tells me it’s >>>>>> Rinnegan and all that war arc Senju/Uchiha Rikudo stuff.


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## sabre320 (Oct 7, 2019)

I think its pretty clear that jigen is being portrayed far above madara.....dude kicked through freaking rsm and rikudo ps like it was jelly....shit dosent make sense but its what it is, madaras old news adult naruto and sasuke together would murder him.


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 7, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> Jigen has a Karma Seal across his entire body the forum keeps ignoring that


No ones ignoring it

Its just flat out not a factor


Eliyua23 said:


> hearing from Kashin that’s what places him out of Naruto’s league


Only when Naruto has his ability dumbed massively down

No PIS Naruto solos Jigen via KB induced attrition

Its genuinely that simple

Jigens stamina is piss poor


Eliyua23 said:


> right now we know jack shit about it


And yet you cited it as a factor...Thats odd...


Eliyua23 said:


> based upon how casually he’s fucking then up in CQC


He didnt casually do shit

Had Naruto OR Sasuke had 30 more seconds of fight in them the fight was over

Hell they didnt even need more fight, had they stalled him for 30 more seconds theyd have won

Was also a nerfed Sasuke there


Eliyua23 said:


> I would say there is nothing Madara is doing to him in close


Minus fuck him up with Limbo or TSBs


Eliyua23 said:


> you have to consider dude has Juubi as a pet and still wants a Karma Seal using vessel which tells me it’s >>>>>> Rinnegan and all that war arc Senju/Uchiha Rikudo stuff.


That remains to be seen

And even if it ends up being true that hardly affects Jigen right now does it?


sabre320 said:


> madaras old news adult naruto and sasuke together would murder him.


Not with the ability they demonstrated against Jigen they fucking wouldnt 


sabre320 said:


> dude kicked through freaking rsm and rikudo ps like it was jelly


He did no damage to either avatar

Weve seen what Susanoo looks like when it gets busted through and it wasnt what Jigen did to it

Id say he has some method of bypassing them, hes not lolnoping them, likely something to do with his shrinking nonsense

If he hit hard enough to do that hed have liquefied Naruto or Sasuke with a single punch...Yet this didnt happen even when both were worn down by his spears


sabre320 said:


> I think its pretty clear that jigen is being portrayed far above madara


By beating a Naruto and Sasuke so nerfed that either of their 16 year old selves could solo them?

Nah


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## xingi (Oct 7, 2019)

Perfect Susano said:


> in a hypothetical scenario where he's immobilized by rods which is unlikely dubious due to the likely difference in power from being an actual Ten Tails' jinchuriki, a Limbo swap should suffice in escaping. Even sealing Madara in his pot wouldn't work since he can't immobilize him long enough.




Jigen is stronger than a ten tail's Jin plus keeps a ten tails of his own immobilized by his rods


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 7, 2019)

xingi said:


> Jigen is stronger than a ten tail's Jin


Not based on feats he isnt 


xingi said:


> plus keeps a ten tails of his own immobilized by his rods


Hashirama could immobilize the Juubi

Think he beats JJ madara too?


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## xingi (Oct 7, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Hashirama could immobilize the Juubi


Wasn't that an incomplete juubi?


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 7, 2019)

xingi said:


> Wasn't that an incomplete juubi?


And how do you know Jigens isnt?

Its way fucking smaller than the one we saw

Its also not in its final form unlike the one Hashirama sealed

Irrelevant anyway as JJs >>> Juubi and Madara is Jin of the full Juubi


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 7, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No ones ignoring it
> 
> Its just flat out not a factor
> 
> ...





“Koji praised Naruto's strength but noted not even he could defeat Jigen, considering the Kāma, like the one in Boruto's hand the only way to do it.”


Sorry but the guy says the only way to stop Jigen is a Karma Seal like the one Boruto has implying Naruto/Sasuke/Madara or anyone w/o that space alien shit is doing jack to him now his body is weak but it won’t matter because everyone is losing before it gets too serious anyways .


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 7, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Not based on feats he isnt
> 
> Hashirama could immobilize the Juubi
> 
> Think he beats JJ madara too?



You have a strong case of denial sir and we have been down this road before , it’s over man power scale is up and the WA is to this manga what the wave arc was to it .


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## Keishin (Oct 7, 2019)

Karma isnt the only way to defeat him... that's just bullshit talk. There's no reason to assume this man wont die from a razor in his brain. he gets pummeled by madara.

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## kayz (Oct 7, 2019)

Kage bunshins won't matter if Naruto used them. Jigen is not retarded like Kaguya.


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## Perfect Susano (Oct 7, 2019)

xingi said:


> Jigen is stronger than a ten tail's Jin plus keeps a ten tails of his own immobilized by his rods


It's a juvenile Ten Tails as stated by Sasuke. And it's obvious based on how small it is. Jigen is merely using this juvenile Ten Tails as a fuel source. He doesn't have as much chakra as it, let alone a matured 2nd stage Ten Tails which Madara is a jinchuriki of. Madara's chakra>Jigen's, so he isn't stopping Madara with rods and Limbo swap counters anyway.

Jigen's chakra is more so comparable to Naruto's in Six Paths Sage Mode than it is to a Ten Tails' Jinchuriki.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 7, 2019)

Rikudo CST should displace Jigen from the earth.

I mean, if we’re removing PiS and Dojutsu nerfs.

Wonder how Madara’s Sharingan Genjutsu would fair on an immensely weaker entity as well.

I mean, if we’re removing Dojutsu nerfs. I didn’t recall seeing why Madara lacked a Rikudo PS or Rikudo Genjutsu, did his Sharingan fade away when his eyes evolved? Why would that be the case? 

Does Sasuke get Rinnegan Genjutsu with a 6 Tomoe Rinnegan, but Madara not get Genjitsu with a 9 tomoe Rinnegan?

Hmmmm...

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## kayz (Oct 7, 2019)

Perfect Susano said:


> It's a juvenile Ten Tails as stated by Sasuke. And it's obvious based on how small it is. Jigen is merely using this juvenile Ten Tails as a fuel source. He doesn't have as much chakra as it, let alone a matured 2nd stage Ten Tails which Madara is a jinchuriki of. Madara's chakra>Jigen's, so he isn't stopping Madara with rods and Limbo swap counters anyway.
> 
> *Jigen's chakra is more so comparable to Naruto's in Six Paths Sage Mode than it is to a Ten Tails' Jinchuriki.*


You know this is speculation right? Jigen's chakra could be as big as the juubi's, even bigger.


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## kayz (Oct 7, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> Rikudo CST should displace Jigen from the earth.
> 
> I mean, if we’re removing PiS and Dojutsu nerfs.


Not when he can teleport


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 7, 2019)

kayz said:


> Not when he can teleport


Momoshiki teleported to earth.

What did the Rasengan say to the Momoshiki? Welcome to space.

At a certain point we need to stop avoiding the fact that both Sasuke and Madara retain the invisible untraceable gravity distortions of the Rinnegan that blew up a village when utilized by a fodder non transmigrant, and that they possess all-verse Genjutsu.

The real manga is over let’s move on from author nerfs. We’re cutting their arsenals in half for no reason, it’s ridiculous.

Jigen can utilize his full arsenal but Madara can’t use his in a battle that could result in his death? Nope. Bullshit.

He’s not going to choose to die, he’s going to put all of his strength into Tendo path like Nagato and send Jigen to another solar system or he’s going to use his 3 god eyes which represent the pinnacle of yin release to cast several layered simultaneous mind fucking illusions on him and turn Jigen into a vegetable.

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## xingi (Oct 7, 2019)

Perfect Susano said:


> It's a juvenile Ten Tails as stated by Sasuke. And it's obvious based on how small it is.


Not really accurate considering we are talking about someone that can shrink things...



Perfect Susano said:


> Jigen's chakra is more so comparable to Naruto's in Six Paths Sage Mode than it is to a Ten Tails' Jinchuriki.


Were are you getting these estimates of jigens Chakra from? Don't tell me it's because his body began to break... That was literally because jigens body couldn't handle the amount of power isshiki's karma was giving him, nothing about his Chakra was stated in that fight


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## xingi (Oct 7, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> Momoshiki teleported to earth.
> 
> What did the Rasengan say to the Momoshiki?


Momoshiki doesn't use portals like jigen... We were literally shown he can use it in battles as an escape mechanic faster than sasuke could strike, similar to Kaguya


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## kayz (Oct 7, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> Momoshiki teleported to earth.
> 
> What did the Rasengan say to the Momoshiki?


not when the rasengan killed him on impact. Momoshiki doesn't use portal like Jigen.
Jigen can teleport before CST hits him or even block it with giant stakes. That's assuming he won't even shrug it off.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 7, 2019)

kayz said:


> not when the rasengan killed him on impact. Momoshiki doesn't use portal like Jigen.
> Jigen can teleport before CST hits him or even block it with giant stakes. That's assuming he won't even shrug it off.


This is assuming he can sense gravity distortions, which hold no mass nor ill intent.

There’s still no counter to Madara using 3 simultaneous god Dojutsu to turn Jigen into a mind fuck vegetable. He’s a mini Hagoromo who’s descendants shit out immortal genjutsu (izanagi) by manipulating his son’s distant DNA ties and a multi-leveled regressed Dojutsu of Indra.

There’s no telling what kind of illusions Madara can improvise through his Rinnegan and Hagoromo level yin release.

The implication that Jigen would survive a fully amped CST by 3 Rinnegan Judara is pure conjecture. Make no mistake Madara is a significantly more powerful entity in overall power the only thing that makes this a fight is Jigen’s magic hacks.


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## Perfect Susano (Oct 7, 2019)

kayz said:


> You know this is speculation right? Jigen's chakra could be as big as the juubi's, even bigger.


Going to go with the more obvious conclusion that Jigen doesn't have more chakra than his fuel source.



xingi said:


> Not really accurate considering we are talking about someone that can shrink things...


There's no evidence that he shrunk it. He's only been shown to shrink inanimate objects. Based on the dialogue about it being stated to be juvenile, there's more supporting the notion that it's just a small Ten Tails.



> Were are you getting these estimates of jigens Chakra from? Don't tell me it's because his body began to break... That was literally because jigens body couldn't handle the amount of power isshiki's karma was giving him, nothing about his Chakra was stated in that fight


It's based on Kawaki's reaction to Naruto flaring his chakra and comparing him to Jigen. Naruto obviously can't beat him in combat, but their chakra is likely not too far apart.

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## kayz (Oct 7, 2019)

Perfect Susano said:


> Going to go with the more obvious conclusion that Jigen doesn't have more chakra than his fuel source.


How do you know it's his fuel source tho?
Kaguya had more chakra than Naruto and Sasuke, yet wanted to suck them dry.


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## kayz (Oct 7, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> This is assuming he can sense gravity distortions, which hold no mass nor ill intent.
> 
> There’s still no counter to Madara using 3 simultaneous god Dojutsu to turn Jigen into a mind fuck vegetable.
> 
> The implication that Jigen would survive a fully amped CST by 3 Rinnegan Judara is pure conjecture.


Well, I'll leave it that this is speculation of such feat. There's really no feat from Rikudo CST to judge anything.

As for Mindfuck (genjutsu), partner method (Isshiki inside Jigen) fucks everything up.
IT is the only way to go. Even that depends if they fight at night.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 7, 2019)

kayz said:


> Well, I'll leave it that this is speculation of such feat. There's really no feat from Rikudo CST to judge anything.
> 
> As for Mindfuck (genjutsu), partner method (Isshiki inside Jigen) fucks everything up.
> IT is the only way to go. Even that depends if they fight at night.


Partner method did not work for basic Senju 3-toma Genjutsu and A Senpo toad genjutsu.

This is assuming the illusion occurs in real time. A Dojutsu user of this power and skill level would be easily capable of replicating the effects of Tsukuyomi on a single opponent at a much higher stress rate.

You think Hagoromo can’t kill Jigen with an illusion?

That Hagoromo’s copy can’t incapacitate Jigen with it?

The guy created 9 immortal living beings with it.

His fodder descendants became immortal with it (izanagi).

Hagoromo and Madara by extension, as a near copy per Hagoromo’s own words, are literal wizards who can do almost anything with a thought and some chakra.


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## kayz (Oct 7, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> Partner method did not work for basic Senju 3-toma Genjutsu and A Senpo toad genjutsu.


Till date, that wasn't explained. But, it's most likely that Obito cast genjutsu on the three-tails inside Mizukage too. Just like he did with Kurama inside Kushina.

Tailed beasts are susceptible to strong genjutsu. I don't think genjutsu is affecting an Otsutsuki with a dojutsu.



DaVizWiz said:


> This is assuming the illusion occurs in real time. A Dojutsu user of this power and skill level would be easily capable of replicating the effects of Tsukuyomi on a single opponent at a much higher stress rate.
> 
> You think Hagoromo can’t kill Jigen with an illusion?
> 
> ...


None of this is in Madara's arsenal. Or, he would have used against teen Naruto.



DaVizWiz said:


> Hagoromo and Madara by extension are literal wizards who can do almost anything with a thought and some chakra.


And Jigen who's most like Kaguya's superior, isn't?


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## Perfect Susano (Oct 7, 2019)

kayz said:


> How do you know it's his fuel source tho?
> Kaguya had more chakra than Naruto and Sasuke, yet wanted to suck them dry.


I'm not seeing how that's even equivalent. Jigen had been going to the Ten Tails multiple times to absorb chakra and when he did his Karma advanced to his 2nd stage. The chakra he absorbs from the Ten Tails is what allows him to go into his 2nd stage Karma and regain a portion of Isshiki's strength. If you don't agree with that interpretation then fine, but I feel it's obvious that he's using the Ten Tails as a source of strength just like Momoshiki & Kinshiki go through dimensions farming chakra as a power source and just like Momoshiki used Kinshiki himself as a power source.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 7, 2019)

kayz said:


> Till date, that wasn't explained. But, it's most likely that Obito cast genjutsu on the three-tails inside Mizukage too. Just like he did with Kurama inside Kushina.
> 
> Tailed beasts are susceptible to strong genjutsu. I don't think genjutsu is affecting an Otsutsuki with a dojutsu.
> 
> ...


There’s nothing implying they’re not vulnerable you simply choose to believe it because the authors cannot fit it into the plot realistically. Genjutsu is broken it should’ve never been introduced into the series and it’s why Genjutsu was restricted from every uchiha for most of the manga.

Toad Genjutsu overrode Nagato’s ability to break his own jutsu (Pain) out of the illusion. Stop implying partner method is a solution to god illusions.

No one is breaking Hagoromo’s illusions. Nobody. They’re not some shitty chakra distortion by ninja they’re a whole other level of illusion beyond the unbreakable Tsukuyomi and Koto that literally can’t be broken by a partner due to the time warp and the fact that even the opponent is unaware they’re being manipulated as koto alters the subconscious. 

Are you implying Judara wasn’t nerfed by Kishimoto? Really? The dude that used one half of a Rinnegan path during the duration of his mode? 

Lol. Jigen isn’t even an immortal he’s no where near Kaguya’s level.


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## xingi (Oct 7, 2019)

Kayz said:


> And Jigen who's most like Kaguya's superior, isn't?





DaVizWiz said:


> Lol. Jigen isn’t even an immortal he’s no where near Kaguya’s level.


Isshiki is kaguya's superior... Jigen is only a vessal


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## kayz (Oct 7, 2019)

Perfect Susano said:


> I'm not seeing how that's even equivalent. Jigen had been going to the Ten Tails multiple times to absorb chakra and when he did his Karma advanced to his 2nd stage. The chakra he absorbs from the Ten Tails is what allows him to go into his 2nd stage Karma and regain a portion of Isshiki's strength.


"Jigen has been going to ten-tails multiple times"

- How do you know this wasn't the first? Or, since a millennia?


"Karma advanced to second stage" 

- yet, still went back to base Jigen. Even, Kawaki's enter version 2. I don't think a juubi's needed for that.


Or, Isshiki has been the one in charge (not Jigen) right from the get go, and does not need to regain "his strength". The juubi's could just be alternative source, after his been using his for quite a while, and that while could be a millennia.


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## kayz (Oct 7, 2019)

xingi said:


> Isshiki is kaguya's superior... Jigen is only a vessal


Yea, meant to say Isshiki.


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## xingi (Oct 7, 2019)

kayz said:


> " Isshiki has been the one in charge (not Jigen) right from the get go


We don't have full confirmation but this is what most people believe right now. Jigen has never really been jigen since his introduction


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## kayz (Oct 7, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> There’s nothing implying they’re not vulnerable you simply choose to believe it because the authors cannot fit it into the plot realistically. Genjutsu is broken it should’ve never been introduced into the series and it’s why Genjutsu was restricted from every uchiha for most of the manga.


Or genjutsu is not as broken in this manga as you think.



DaVizWiz said:


> Toad Genjutsu overrode Nagato’s ability to break his own jutsu (Pain) out of the illusion. Stop implying partner method is a solution to god illusions.


That is not partner method as Pain is a dead body without its own chakra. Jigen's not dead, Isshiki is in control of the body.



DaVizWiz said:


> No one is breaking Hagoromo’s illusions. Nobody. They’re not some shitty chakra distortion by ninja they’re a whole other level of illusion beyond the unbreakable Tsukuyomi and Koto that literally can’t be broken by a partner due to the time warp and the fact that even the opponent is unaware they’re being manipulated as koto alters the subconscious.
> 
> 
> Are you implying Judara wasn’t nerfed by Kishimoto? Really? The dude that used one half of a Rinnegan path during the duration of his mode?


Woah, I think we should stop there. Hagoromo hasn't shown any illusions, neither did Madara beyond sharingan/MS genjutsu and IT.




DaVizWiz said:


> Lol. Jigen isn’t even an immortal he’s no where near Kaguya’s level.


Isshiki is definitely immortal, likewise Jigen as an extension. He's been there since Kaguya, more than a millennia. I'm thinking you didn't read previous chapters before the last one


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## T-Bag (Oct 7, 2019)

madara with the rinneisharingan could potentially use kaguya's  so you're not gonna trap him forget about it.


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## xingi (Oct 7, 2019)

T-Bag said:


> madara with the rinneisharingan could potentially use kaguya's  so you're not gonna trap him forget about it.


But there's no real confirmation he can do this tho


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## T-Bag (Oct 7, 2019)

xingi said:


> But there's no real confirmation he can do this tho


correct, but it's common sense. all ototsuki have spacetime techniques, considering madara is kaguya's vessel (3rd eye user) who used several of kaguya's techniques, don't see why he can't


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## Grinningfox (Oct 7, 2019)

T-Bag said:


> madara with the rinneisharingan could potentially use kaguya's  so you're not gonna trap him forget about it.



likely not and either way it can’t be used in vs battle format because it’s never happened


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## kayz (Oct 7, 2019)

T-Bag said:


> madara with the rinneisharingan could potentially use kaguya's  so you're not gonna trap him forget about it.


Yomotsu Hirasaka has nothing to do with her third eye tho.
Must be the other ability, amenominaka.


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## Perfect Susano (Oct 8, 2019)

kayz said:


> "Jigen has been going to ten-tails multiple times"
> 
> - How do you know this wasn't the first? Or, since a millennia?
> 
> ...


Even if Jigen doesn't need it to enter 2nd stage, absorbing it's chakra could be the reason he's so strong in that state. He's clearly absorbing chakra from it to increase his power. 

When he goes to the Ten Tails he states _"Sorry, but...I'll be taking a bit more"_, which means he went there multiple times to absorb chakra from it. He's literally doing the same thing that most Otsutsuki have been shown to do. Farming chakra to increase their power.

It's not really contestable that he uses it as a source of power. Black Zetsu needed to absorb chakra from the people trapped in Infinite Tsukiyomi for Kaguya to manifest despite her already being a part of Madara. Isshiki could just be using the Ten Tails as a chakra source to regain power in the same vein. But as he's regaining that power, his current vessel which is Jigen wouldn't be able to handle it.


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## kayz (Oct 8, 2019)

Perfect Susano said:


> Even if Jigen doesn't need it to enter 2nd stage, absorbing it's chakra could be the reason he's so strong in that state. He's clearly absorbing chakra from it to increase his power.
> 
> When he goes to the Ten Tails he states _"Sorry, but...I'll be taking a bit more"_, which means he went there multiple times to absorb chakra from it. He's literally doing the same thing that most Otsutsuki have been shown to do. Farming chakra to increase their power.
> 
> It's not really contestable that he uses it as a source of power. Black Zetsu needed to absorb chakra from the people trapped in Infinite Tsukiyomi for Kaguya to manifest despite her already being a part of Madara. Isshiki could just be using the Ten Tails as a chakra source to regain power in the same vein. But as he's regaining that power, his current vessel which is Jigen wouldn't be able to handle it.


Too much too argue speculation. We'll let manga decide.


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## xingi (Oct 8, 2019)

Perfect Susano said:


> Even if Jigen doesn't need it to enter 2nd stage, absorbing it's chakra could be the reason he's so strong in that state.


It's not.... Isshiki literally states jigens body cannot handle the power from his karma. He's that strong because of isshiki's karma

And to debunk the jigen needs juubi to enter v2, kawaki was able to enter v2 without juubi.

As for why he needs juubi chakra...who knows.. my theory is that he needs it to maintain jigens body


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## kayz (Oct 8, 2019)

xingi said:


> It's not.... Isshiki literally states jigens body cannot handle the power from his karma. He's that strong because of isshiki's karma
> 
> And to debunk the jigen needs juubi to enter v2, kawaki was able to enter v2 without juubi.
> 
> As for why he needs juubi chakra...who knows.. my theory is that he needs it to maintain jigens body


Even the fact that a good portion of his chakra must be inside Kawaki.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 8, 2019)

kayz said:


> Or genjutsu is not as broken in this manga as you think.
> 
> 
> That is not partner method as Pain is a dead body without its own chakra. Jigen's not dead, Isshiki is in control of the body.
> ...


or it is, as it was implied to be, and nerfed for the majority of the manga, as it was.

Pain bodies have chakra pathways which is why they were affected by genjutsu and why they’re capable of manifesting Ninjutsu. The chakra is sent through the black receivers.

Gedo Parh Control’s Pain, the 7th Path. Nagato could not break his own puppets out of Genjutsu despite heaving full control over the chakra filtering into them, as it was his chakra.

What the fuck are you trying to prove? Partner method stinks get over it. Naruto couldn’t even counter Toneri’s Genjursu, he was put out by Toneri in a death state despite having 100% Kurama in his body and Sakura working on him the entire time.

He made the bijuu with an illusion. Hagoromo can cast illusions at will he visited Naruto and Sasuke in their dreams while they were dying from another dimension.

You don’t seem to understand the power of Hagoromo. Let me make it simple. Hagoromo isn’t just an alien, like the scrub Oro’s, he is a Demi god wizard that achieved the ability to create life with chakra. Even after he’s dead he can time travel and teleport in and out of being dead to transfer his powers to other people, having completel and utter full knowledge on everything that is going on within the world despite being dead for hundreds of years. This is probably because he spawned from an alien that was transformed into an actual god.

Momoshiki was not immortal and he is as old as any of them. As was Kinshiki.

Kaguya cannot be removed from the world of the living. There is no conceivable way to take what she is, which is an abomination, and move her essence into the pure world.

Jigen is an alien, as is his superior. as was Kaguya/.

Kaguya came to earth as an Oto alien, then she ate a chakra fruit that bore from the blood of the world’s dead . A spiritual power, and became more than an alien. She became a literal god, not a living species, a god, the only one we’re aware of.

Her son is a demigod.

Madara is a near full copy of the demigod, by the demigods’ own admission.

Whar can the demigod do? Anything he wants, including creating 9 extremely powerful immortal beings with intelligent personalities. The implication that he can do this, time travel, visit people in their death dreams but can’t cast illusions with his yin release mastery and his illusion casting alien eyes is absurd.

I reiterate the fact that he created the bijuu with an illusion, yin release chakras, then brought them to life with yang release. This guy’s copy can’t cast a Rinnesharingan illusion on Jigen?


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## JayK (Oct 8, 2019)

Are we talking about Isshiki or just the vessel?

If it's the former then we have an Otsutsuki at hand who is foreshadowed to be superior to Kaguya.

If it's the later Madara's only hope is that the lasts long enough for the vessel to break as he is hilariously outmatched in every imaginable way bar regen (and even that might be subject to change in the future). Dude can legit just pummel/BFR Madara into the pot seal like he did with Nardo/Sauce.


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## Perfect Susano (Oct 8, 2019)

xingi said:


> It's not.... Isshiki literally states jigens body cannot handle the power from his karma. He's that strong because of isshiki's karma
> 
> And to debunk the jigen needs juubi to enter v2, kawaki was able to enter v2 without juubi.
> 
> As for why he needs juubi chakra...who knows.. my theory is that he needs it to maintain jigens body


He absorbs chakra from the Ten Tails to gain power. That's not really debateable. The Ten Tails obviously powered up his Karma state which is why he automatically went into it upon absorbing the Ten Tails chakra. No longer saying he needs it for V2 Karma.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 8, 2019)

I thought Jigen was supposed to be orders of magnitude stronger than current Naruto and Sasuke, stated to be the strongest shinobi ever, who in turn managed to beat Kaguya like a decade ago when they were supposedly not as strong as they are now, and Kaguya in turn was orders of magnitude stronger than Juubi Madara.  But then, I don't read or watch Boringto and the powerscaling has been beyond all comprehension since the Juubi appeared in the War Arc.

I remember when this series was about ninjas.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Artistwannabe (Oct 8, 2019)

Madara can probably outlast the first round
If there are no limits for Jigen Madara gets absolutely destroyed. He is faster, stronger (his punching is as strong as Kaguya's Vacuum Palms, since it oneshot Sasuke's Susanoo.) In the end, Madara gets sealed into that black pot.


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## kayz (Oct 8, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> Pain bodies have chakra pathways which is why they were affected by genjutsu and why they’re capable of manifesting Ninjutsu. The chakra is sent through the black receivers.
> 
> Gedo Parh Control’s Pain, the 7th Path. Nagato could not break his own puppets out of Genjutsu despite heaving full control over the chakra filtering into them, as it was his chakra.


Are the Paths living bodies?? I'll answer - NO!
They have chakra pathway system, yes. But no chakra of themselves, because they are technically dead bodies. 
Jigen is alive; he has chakra. Genjutsu aims to control an opponent's chakra. Isshiki is already in control of Jigen's chakra, hence why he's influencing Jigen. So which chakra would genjutsu control??



DaVizWiz said:


> What the fuck are you trying to prove? Partner method stinks get over it. Naruto couldn’t even counter Toneri’s Genjursu, he was put out by Toneri in a death state despite having 100% Kurama in his body and Sakura working on him the entire time.



You know if Kurama was also affected by that genjutsu?



DaVizWiz said:


> He made the bijuu with an illusion. Hagoromo can cast illusions at will he visited Naruto and Sasuke in their dreams while they were dying from another dimension.
> 
> You don’t seem to understand the power of Hagoromo. Let me make it simple. Hagoromo isn’t just an alien, like the scrub Oro’s, he is a Demi god wizard that achieved the ability to create life with chakra. Even after he’s dead he can time travel and teleport in and out of being dead to transfer his powers to other people, having completel and utter full knowledge on everything that is going on within the world despite being dead for hundreds of years. This is probably because he spawned from an alien that was transformed into an actual god.
> 
> ...


Sorry bro. This long ass statement won't fly. Feats of Hagoromo's genjutsu in combat or literally gtfo, with this weak attempt. 

And since when do we give feats of someone else to another. Why all of a sudden you want to give Hagoromo's abilities to Madara??


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## Arles Celes (Oct 8, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> By literally fucking laughing at their feeble attempts to hurt him???
> 
> kiddo, those amazing rods needed to tag Sasuke in the dozens before they wore him down and even then the dude started the fight winded from 2 dimension hops at least...AND Sasuke doesnt have regen...Least of all on Madaras JJ level...
> 
> ...



Only Sasuke's Sharingan could see through Jigen's ability. Not his Rinnegan. Can Juubi Madara turn his Sharingan back on? Does he know it might work in the first place? And when Jigen uses V2 Karma not even the Sharingan can cut it out anymore.

Madara still cannot land a hit on Jigen even in his V1 form. His ninjutsu will be cancelled by Karma. His only hope is MT...assuming Jigen lets him and assuming it will work on him at all given he is an Otsutsuki. Even Truth Seeking Balls might not be so effective against someone who got O clan chakra.

Worst case scenario if Jigen cannot see Limbo clones is to trap Madara in his dimension. Pretty much what Obito tried all the time against his opponents.




WorldsStrongest said:


> No PIS Naruto solos Jigen via KB induced attrition
> 
> Its genuinely that simple
> 
> Jigens stamina is piss poor



Jigen could easily handle Naruto's RSM clones when accessing V1 Karma. Only Karma V2 exhausts his body. Without Sasuke, Naruto cannot see Jigen when he is shrinking even when he knows how Jigen's ability works.

Naruto hardly used more clones against JJ Madara than against Jigen.


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 8, 2019)

Citing the wiki...

Thats actually fucking adorable


Eliyua23 said:


> Sorry but the guy says the only way to stop Jigen is a Karma Seal


Cool and hes wrong

As the Naruto/Sasuke fight proved


Eliyua23 said:


> his body is weak but it won’t matter because everyone is losing before it gets too serious anyways .


If he couldnt KO Sasuke before his body gave up on him hes not KOing JJ Madara who can regenerate 50% of his body from nothing with no effort

Pull your head out of your twat


Eliyua23 said:


> You have a strong case of denial sir


You have a strong case of moronic thinking 


Eliyua23 said:


> we have been down this road before , it’s over man power scale is up and the WA is to this manga what the wave arc was to it .


And this is just flat out fucking stupid

The WA is visibly more impressive than anything in Boruto

Youd have to be blind to not see that

Even @Hussain can see that and hes the biggest Boruto guzzling troll I can name


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## OneShotPerfected (Oct 8, 2019)

What kind of troll question is this


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## LawdyLawd (Oct 8, 2019)

OneShotPerfected said:


> What kind of troll question is this



obviously not if there’s 3 pages of hot and horny debaters but go off


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## Arles Celes (Oct 8, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> And this is just flat out fucking stupid
> 
> The WA is visibly more impressive than anything in Boruto
> 
> ...



That is mostly due to Ikemoto's limited drawing skills.

Compare the Movie Boruto(or even the anime version) Momoshiki fight to the Manga Boruto Momoshiki fight. In the former Naruto and Sasuke look like gods who can destroy the ground with light speed fast shunshin. In the latter it is just Momo and Naruto exchanging a few punches and kicks that hardly look like moon shatterers.

Its obvious that if Ikemoto drew the Last fight between Naruto and Toneri they wouldn't destroy even a small mountain.

It hardly means that movie Momo is a hundred time more powerful than manga Momo though. Ike simply got a long way to go.

The portrayal seems to replace the special effects.


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## xingi (Oct 8, 2019)

Arles Celes said:


> That is mostly due to Ikemoto's limited drawing skills.
> 
> Compare the Movie Boruto(or even the anime version) Momoshiki fight to the Manga Boruto Momoshiki fight. In the former Naruto and Sasuke look like gods who can destroy the ground with light speed fast shunshin. In the latter it is just Momo and Naruto exchanging a few punches and kicks that hardly look like moon shatterers.
> 
> ...


Kawaki's AOE is still the biggest Ike has drawn in the manga


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## OneShotPerfected (Oct 8, 2019)

321ice said:


> obviously not if there’s 3 pages of hot and horny debaters but go off



I'll answer your question in your original post then.

Scenario 2: Jigen. Juudara without the God tree is EVEN weaker than his peak form. In Juudara's peak form, he is weaker than Kaguya, arguably the *former* strongest character so far. Jigen without the vessel body limit would be even stronger than Kaguya because he is able to keep Karma v2 for a much longer time. With Karma v2, Jigen can absorb all ninjutsu (GG Kaguya), is probably the strongest taijutsu user ever (kicked through Kurama avatar and Susanoo like nothing, maybe Gai 8th gate is better but debatable), and is most likely immune to genjutsu or else Sasuke would have tried something.

Scenario 3: Jigen. Same thing as before. Without the body limit, Jigen is leagues above even peak Juudara. Even with the body limit, Jigen is stronger than peak Juudara. The body limit's main disadvantage is that it limits how long Jigen can sustain Karma v2. Jigen would wipe the floor with Juudara in the time limit we saw in Ch. 38, he doesn't need hours or days to finish him off

Reactions: Like 1


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## Raiken (Oct 8, 2019)

From what we know and have seen from Jigen so far. Madara wins.

Maybe Jigen would do well against Madara when he first became the Juubi Jinchuuriki, but after his gradual power ups, it becomes more of a loosing battle for Jigen.


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## Arles Celes (Oct 8, 2019)

xingi said:


> Kawaki's AOE is still the biggest Ike has drawn in the manga



So it seems. 

If we measure power by level of destruction then Kawaki>>>> Jigen


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## Raiken (Oct 8, 2019)

kayz said:


> Yomotsu Hirasaka has nothing to do with her third eye tho.
> Must be the other ability, amenominaka.


The two abilities are clearly tied together.


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## JayK (Oct 8, 2019)

Naruto/Boruto is still gonna be Planet level by EoS because Ikemoto is a garbage artist who can't draw environmental damage.


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 8, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Citing the wiki...
> 
> Thats actually fucking adorable
> 
> ...



Yep , bad case of denial


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## Raiken (Oct 8, 2019)

Jigen could beat Juubito, he stalemates the weakest Juudara, and looses to the stronger versions.

At least based on what he's shown so far, e.g. "current" Jigen.


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## kayz (Oct 8, 2019)

Cryorex said:


> The two abilities are clearly tied together.


No. Momoshiki can use it. Urashiki did it without activating rinnegan. There was never a time, unlike the amenominaka, where any panel referenced the rinnesharingan doing it. 
The ability is not a dojutsu

Reactions: Like 1


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## blk (Oct 8, 2019)

By powerscaling (not feats... since visually there is nothing in Boruto that is remotely comparable to Naruto) Jigen should be faster and physically stronger than Madara.

However that is by no means enough. 

With just cqc he can't bypass Madara's regen and will probably have an hard time busting the TSB too.

The black rods are mostly useless, they do very little damage apparently since even Sasuke, with no regen and nowhere near Madara's durability, survived them.

The sealing pot can probably be used only if the opponent is stunned/paralyzed or similar like Naruto was (otherwise he could have sealed them directly without bothering to fight). 
Which again won't happen thanks to Madara's regen, durability and swapping with Limbo ability. 

So sure, Jigen outclasses Madara in cqc, but i just don't see anyway for him to either kill the JJ or incapacitate him.

Imo Madara wins by outlasting, since he has virtually unlimited stamina and chakra thanks to the Ten Tails, while Jigen can fight at JJ levels for a short amount of time.


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## sabre320 (Oct 8, 2019)

blk said:


> By powerscaling (not feats... since visually there is nothing in Boruto that is remotely comparable to Naruto) Jigen should be faster and physically stronger than Madara.
> 
> However that is by no means enough.
> 
> ...


You are seriously underselling what jigen did against the duo...naruto and sasuke were limited by pis but the author makes it clear jigen is meant to be on another level to madara....dude didnt just have an edge in cqc he freaking bumrushed their rikudo avatars and kicked through them like they were paper...not even kaguya replicated it with such ease its ridiculous... the rods are insanely hax are damn near undetectable and the nano tech hax is uncounterable 1v1...the same rods easily grew large enough to pin down the rsm avatar so they are easily capable of deathly harm...
Honestly madara would get bumrushed by him and absolutely smashed. Madara was getting blitzed bu teen sasuke and damaged and cut apart by simple chidori flow...jigen was knocking through adult sasukes ps like it was butter...and madara lacks spacetime tech ...which jigen easily capitalized on against naruto.


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## blk (Oct 8, 2019)

sabre320 said:


> You are seriously underselling what jigen did against the duo...naruto and sasuke were limited by pis but the author makes it clear jigen is meant to be on another level to madara....dude didnt just have an edge in cqc he freaking bumrushed their rikudo avatars and kicked through them like they were paper...not even kaguya replicated it with such ease its ridiculous... the rods are insanely hax are damn near undetectable and the nano tech hax is uncounterable 1v1...the same rods easily grew large enough to pin down the rsm avatar so they are easily capable of deathly harm...
> Honestly madara would get bumrushed by him and absolutely smashed. Madara was getting blitzed bu teen sasuke and damaged and cut apart by simple chidori flow...jigen was knocking through adult sasukes ps like it was butter...and madara lacks spacetime tech ...which jigen easily capitalized on against naruto.



Sure he is strong as hell, but i still don't see anything in his arsenal that can definitively kill JJ Madara. 
Also the TSB might prove a strong enough defense. 

Also can Jigen even see Limbo? That would be another factor.

The nano jutsu can be seen via Rinnegan, like Sasuke did.

What teen Naruto and Sasuke did to Madara isn't of much relevance.
Since we don't know if they are really any stronger as adults for first, and for second Jigen too was almost decapitated by Sasuke's sword, so..

Remember also that Jigen's stamina and chakra are extremely limited.
It really doesn't take much to outlast him. 

Naruto with much less durability and regenerative power than JJ Madara lasted almost enough to outlast Jigen for example. 
And in a sense, if it wasn't for him being temporarily incapacitated and sealed, he would have outlasted given a bit of rest time (since Kurama would have healed and recharged his chakra by absorbing natural energy).

Also i suspect that Jigen was able to pass through PS and Kurama Avatar with some special power and not raw strength... But for now that's speculative.

Imo is performace, while good, isn't all that much.


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## Altiora Night (Oct 9, 2019)

Cryorex said:


> From what we know and have seen from Jigen so far. Madara wins.
> 
> Maybe Jigen would do well against *Madara when he first became the Juubi Jinchuuriki*, but after his gradual power ups, it becomes more of a loosing battle for Jigen.


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## Onyx Emperor (Oct 9, 2019)

I btw like how naruto's body > jigen's punches >> fox avatar and susanoo. Just shows the (in)competence if author.


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## Altiora Night (Oct 9, 2019)

The Overvoid said:


> I btw like how naruto's body > jigen's punches >> fox avatar and susanoo. Just shows the (in)competence if author.


Naruto still got kicked out of RSM in 2 hits though. 

Naruto lost a chakra fist struggle against Kaguya and was hit by her vacuum fists, which were powerful to _*easily*_ destroy Sasuke’s Perfect Susano’o. Yet, it’s not like he took significant damage or something. 

IIRC, Naruto was even flying right through one of her chakra fists in one instance.

What of it now ? Incompetence ? BS ?

At least Jigen kicked Naruto out of RSM with his hits, unlike Kaguya, who should have given what she could do to Sasuke’s PS.


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## Onyx Emperor (Oct 9, 2019)

Omfg atop trying to sew a scaling string from Kaguya to Jigen.
EOS Naruto and adult Naruto are 2 different levels of power, adult one isn't even laying near EOS, and that's proven by lack of feats.


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## Altiora Night (Oct 9, 2019)

The Overvoid said:


> Omfg atop trying to sew a scaling string from Kaguya to Jigen.
> EOS Naruto and adult Naruto are 2 different levels of power, adult one isn't even laying near EOS, and that's proven by lack of feats.


Naw champ.

You were talking about the “(in)competence” regarding “Naruto’s body > Jigen’s punches > avatars”.

My point is that Kaguya’s chakra fists were not capable of punching Naruto out of his RSM when Jigen was able to do so in 2 hits... when *they should have*. That’s the point.

Lmao @ adult Naruto not being close to EOS Naruto. He just wasn’t strong enough and even called Jigen ‘too strong’. You’re definitely gonna hit a wall sooner or later if your opponent is overwhelmingly more powerful than you are. Besides, it’s not the same artist anymore ( from Kishi to Ike ) and obviously, how fights are executed are gonna be different. The anime could easily add more to this fight. The execution of this fight could have been better, but the author’s intent remained that Jigen was way more powerful than the two of them combined. You’d be wise to remember that.


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## Onyx Emperor (Oct 9, 2019)

Idc how you see jigens portrayal, i can see no destruction from Sasuke's PS.


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## Altiora Night (Oct 9, 2019)

The Overvoid said:


> Idc how you see jigens portrayal, i can see no destruction from Sasuke's PS.


It’s more than a matter of how I see his portrayal bruddah.

Naruto, not me, outright called Isshiki too strong, which is backed by how the duo got thrashed; this was nothing more than the author’s intent.

I agree that Naruto & Sasuke could have shown more, but hey, Isshiki was fighting in a vessel that could barely contain the current amount of power he has, and he still has a pet Ten-Tails in his dimension, meaning he will gain access to way more power and abilities in the future. Dude was severely limited himself.


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## Onyx Emperor (Oct 9, 2019)

Too strong for current naruto... yea..
And the juubi, it's small + he takea tiny bits of juubi chakra.


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## Altiora Night (Oct 9, 2019)

The Overvoid said:


> Too strong for current naruto... yea..
> And the juubi, it's small + he takea tiny bits of juubi chakra.


It’s a _juvenile_ Ten-Tails, but somehow it did give him quite a boost.

As Sasuke hinted, Isshiki is likely planning to drain the entire planet of chakra. Thus, his Ten-Tails may grow bigger in the future as a result.


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## Onyx Emperor (Oct 9, 2019)

Ok, cool. But i don't like thinking that guys who were leveling mountains in a swing of susanoo now cannot even destroy a hill level aoe, so i scale "naruto" and "boruto" via obd terms (calcing speed, destruction, durability, etc) separately from each verse.


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## Arles Celes (Oct 9, 2019)

Altiora Night said:


> Naruto still got kicked out of RSM in 2 hits though.
> 
> Naruto lost a chakra fist struggle against Kaguya and was hit by her vacuum fists, which were powerful to _*easily*_ destroy Sasuke’s Perfect Susano’o. Yet, it’s not like he took significant damage or something.
> 
> ...



Tbh both Madara and Kaguya were incredibly incompetent.

They threw crazy shit left and right but Naruto and Sasuke could match, dodge or even overpower whatever was thrown at them and emerge from both fights pretty much without any visible wounds. Kaguya being unable to kill a lone Naruto after she decided that he must be killed and wasting chakra to the point she was exhausted was just the cherry on top of the cake. Sure, she was a PS buster(which Jigen can do with a mere kick) but she had not delivered any wounds of note to Sasuke himself.

Jigen does not use any chakra kamehamehas or mechas but the guy's competence cannot be denied. He utterly stomped Naruto and Sasuke bringing the latter to the verge of death and sealing the former(with confirmation that he could have killed him if he really wanted).


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## Arles Celes (Oct 9, 2019)

Altiora Night said:


> It’s a _juvenile_ Ten-Tails, but somehow it did give him quite a boost.
> 
> As Sasuke hinted, Isshiki is likely planning to drain the entire planet of chakra. Thus, his Ten-Tails may grow bigger in the future as a result.



Might be a juvenile Juubi or had its size diminished to fit the prison.

Both that and even Isshiki's goal to drain the planet of chakra are just speculation though.

Isshiki might want to seek war with other O clan members/eat them, he might seek merely the perfect host to wield his power, he might seek to become an omnipotent god somehow or something completely different.


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## JayK (Oct 9, 2019)

The Overshit will never let go and accept that Adult Fate Bros > Teen Fate Bros.

But what do I expect from a blatant troll who obviously doesn't know the source material and came crawling out of the deepest depths of comicvine.


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## Altiora Night (Oct 9, 2019)

Arles Celes said:


> Might be a juvenile Juubi or had its size diminished to fit the prison.


This. He could have used his shrinking ability in combination with the rods to keep the beast suppressed and in the state it currently is.



> Both that and even Isshiki's goal to drain the planet of chakra are just speculation though.
> 
> Isshiki might want to seek war with other O clan members/eat them, he might seek merely the perfect host to wield his power, he might seek to become an omnipotent god somehow or something completely different.


I think that he may want to drain the planet of chakra, but he surprisingly hasn’t targeted the Tailed Beasts yet so far.


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## Femme (Oct 9, 2019)

Madara, he is the jubbi + sasuke (like) . 

Jigen doesn’t have the power to cast an IT


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## Onyx Emperor (Oct 9, 2019)

JayK said:


> The Overshit will never let go and accept that Adult Fate Bros > Teen Fate Bros.
> 
> But what do I expect from a blatant troll who obviously doesn't know the source material and came crawling out of the deepest depths of comicvine.


why are you talkimg, scum? Didn't i show you difference between adult sasuke's susanoo power and EMS madara'?


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## Onyx Emperor (Oct 9, 2019)

Arles Celes said:


> Jigen does not use any chakra kamehamehas or mechas but the guy's competence cannot be denied. He utterly stomped Naruto


Lol. Fun fact, if Naruto used... or rather if naruto still COULD use 1k clones and utilized it, he would make Jigen waste all of his strength on clones.


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## Arles Celes (Oct 10, 2019)

The Overvoid said:


> Lol. Fun fact, if Naruto used... or rather if naruto still COULD use 1k clones and utilized it, he would make Jigen waste all of his strength on clones.



In the whole War arc Naruto only used plenty of clones to fight after Kurama gathered enough chakra for him(he couldn't on his own), to play time and still those clones were going down super fast. We saw V1 Karma Jigen casually disposing around 4-5 RSM clones in a few seconds. V1 Karma does not strain Jigen's body.


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## Onyx Emperor (Oct 10, 2019)

Arles Celes said:


> In the whole War arc Naruto only used plenty of clones to fight after Kurama gathered enough chakra for him(he couldn't on his own)


And now you SUDDENLY remember what happened in chapter 1.


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## Altiora Night (Oct 10, 2019)

Arles Celes said:


> In the whole War arc Naruto only used plenty of clones to fight after Kurama gathered enough chakra for him(he couldn't on his own), to play time and still those clones were going down super fast. We saw V1 Karma Jigen casually disposing around 4-5 RSM clones in a few seconds. V1 Karma does not strain Jigen's body.


Yep.

He was fighting on equal grounds with them whilst in V1 and would have had landed fatal blows had each of them not interfered to help the other one. Jigen even had a confident smile at several instances during the fight. Sasuke even discovered the mechanics behind Jigen’s ability thanks to Naruto utilizing his clones to give them some time to analyze what’s going on.

It is also always forgotten by many that Naruto and Sasuke fighting together is more than a matter of 1 + 1 = 2. It was even stated by the Boruto movie novel that they had long surpassed calculations like that. If V1 Jigen was equal to a combination of them, then he’s much stronger than them individually even whilst in V1.


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## Arles Celes (Oct 10, 2019)

The Overvoid said:


> And now you SUDDENLY remember what happened in chapter 1.



Creating plenty of RSM clones requires FAR more chakra than creating plenty of base clones.

Post the Immortals arc Naruto no longer uses KB to overwhelm his enemy via sheer numbers anyway(which never worked for him anyway aside from the Mizuki fight).


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## Onyx Emperor (Oct 10, 2019)

Arles Celes said:


> Creating plenty of RSM clones requires FAR more chakra than creating plenty of base clones.


He did it against Kaguya and felt no discomfort.


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## Arles Celes (Oct 10, 2019)

The Overvoid said:


> He did it against Kaguya and felt no discomfort.



Again: He needed Kurama gather extra chakra for him to perform that feat.

What happened to 1000 KCM/BM/BSM clones when attacking Madara, Obito, Juubito, Juudara,  Toneri, Sasuke...?

It was just to survive till Sasuke is rescued anyway. A desperate gamble.

Him feeling no shown discomfort means little. Kaguya was no shown weakened after each time she used Amenominaka but it still left her exhausted. Even Kaguya's chakra levels aren't botomless. Neither are Naruto's.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Altiora Night (Oct 10, 2019)

T-Bag said:


> madara with the rinneisharingan could potentially use kaguya's  so you're not gonna trap him forget about it.


So now Madara got fucking abilities he never used and probably couldn’t even use ?

Cool.

Dude was on a loan; he became Ten-Tails’ Jinchūriki and absorbed the Divine Tree but turns out he was administering testosterone blockers and estrogen doses into himself in order to turn into a woman. 

At least Isshiki’s powers are his own.


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## Onyx Emperor (Oct 10, 2019)

Arles Celes said:


> Again: He needed Kurama gather extra chakra for him to perform that feat.
> 
> What happened to 1000 KCM/BM/BSM clones when attacking Madara, Obito, Juubito, Juudara,  Toneri, Sasuke...?
> 
> ...


ok, now i just see attempts to justify PIS. So Jigen is a strong enemy and Naruto isn't using one of his main last resources? Ok.


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## Altiora Night (Oct 10, 2019)

The Overvoid said:


> ok, now i just see attempts to justify PIS. So Jigen is a strong enemy and Naruto isn't using one of his main last resources? Ok.


As if ‘PIS’ was non-existent during the fights against Madara and Kaguya.


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## Arles Celes (Oct 10, 2019)

The Overvoid said:


> ok, now i just see attempts to justify PIS. So Jigen is a strong enemy and Naruto isn't using one of his main last resources? Ok.



And Jigen sparing Naruto's life and trying to incapacitate him at every turn despite Kurama's confirmation that Jigen can kill Naruto is not PIS?

Come on...either both Naruto and Jigen are under PIS or Jigen handily defeated Naruto when they were both in character.


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## Onyx Emperor (Oct 10, 2019)

Altiora Night said:


> As if ‘PIS’ was non-existent during the fights against Madara and Kaguya.


at least MC used everything they had.


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## Altiora Night (Oct 10, 2019)

The Overvoid said:


> at least MC used everything they had.


No, lmao.


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## Onyx Emperor (Oct 10, 2019)

Altiora Night said:


> No, lmao.


Yes, they did. Except of what they showed in VOTE 2, cuz these were novations that they simply didn't think of in battle against Kaguya since they didn't even have the power of sage for an hour.
And after having these power for years they don't use most of their op abilities (because they're weaker and physically cannot utilize them, but borutowankers will think otherwise) just to show jigen's "power". When you nerf a protagonist to show how "strong" a villain is when he beats the shit out of protagonist - it's worse than PIS via outliers or villain's CIS.


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## IamSomeone (Oct 10, 2019)

The Overvoid said:


> Yes, they did. Except of what they showed in VOTE 2, cuz these were novations that they simply didn't think of in battle against Kaguya since they didn't even have the power of sage for an hour.
> And after having these power for years they don't use most of their op abilities (because they're weaker and physically cannot utilize them, but borutowankers will think otherwise) just to show jigen's "power". When you nerf a protagonist to show how "strong" a villain is when he beats the shit out of protagonist - it's worse than PIS via outliers or villain's CIS.



lol what....??


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## Onyx Emperor (Oct 10, 2019)

IamSomeone said:


> lol what....??


Which part didn't you understand?
The one where Jigen, current Naruto and current Sasuke aren't even close to VOTE 2 Naruto and Sasuke?
Or the one where Naruto and Sasuke don't use most of their abilities?


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## IamSomeone (Oct 10, 2019)

The Overvoid said:


> Which part didn't you understand?
> The one where Jigen, current Naruto and current Sasuke aren't even close to VOTE 2 Naruto and Sasuke?
> Or the one where Naruto and Sasuke don't use most of their abilities?



Wdym by Jigen not being close to VOTE 2 Naruto and Sasuke?


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## Onyx Emperor (Oct 10, 2019)

IamSomeone said:


> Wdym by Jigen not being close to VOTE 2 Naruto and Sasuke?


Are you asking about meaning? Literal meaning.


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## IamSomeone (Oct 10, 2019)

The Overvoid said:


> Are you asking about meaning? Literal meaning.



How is Jigen not stronger than VOTE 2 Naruto and Sasuke?


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## Onyx Emperor (Oct 10, 2019)

IamSomeone said:


> How is Jigen not stronger than VOTE 2 Naruto and Sasuke?


His feats aren't promising. If you separate current Naruto/Sasuke from "Naruto" series you'll see how weak they are, for example.... Too sad, many users of this forum aren't ready to accept the sad truth.
fixed 1st img link


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## IamSomeone (Oct 10, 2019)

The Overvoid said:


> His feats aren't promising. If you separate current Naruto/Sasuke from "Naruto" series you'll see how weak they are, for example.... Too sad, many users of this forum aren't ready to accept the sad truth.
> fixed 1st img link



He kicked through susanoo though...


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## Onyx Emperor (Oct 10, 2019)

And now compare these 2 susanoos......


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## IamSomeone (Oct 10, 2019)

The Overvoid said:


> And now compare these 2 susanoos......



I think that's just how Ikemoto draws...


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