# Itachi vs. Pain/Nagato



## Shinobi1jutsu (Apr 4, 2018)

.

For this question... lets assume that both are healthy, and are fighting in an open neutral environment...

1. Itachi Uchiha vs. Pain

2. Itachi Uchiha vs. Nagato

Without a doubt Itachi Uchiha was one of the strongest shinobi ever. In the Akatsuki, it seemed as though Pain was considered to be slightly higher, but I'm not so sure he really was. Both Itachi and Pain/Nagato have serious OP jutsu, and I'm not sure who would beat who. Pain/Nagato might be able to absorb Amateratsu, or disperse it with an almighty push like he did when he and Itachi were reanimated, but wouldn't Pain/Nagato be susceptible to Itachi's 3-Day Long torture genjutsu?! I mean if Jiraya's toad friends can do it, wouldn't Itachi be able to win an easy victory just with that one move?! Conversely, there is a strong possibility that Pain/Nagato might be able to win an easy victory over Itachi with Chibaku Tensei. If you think Itachi would beat Pain one-on-one, then... do you also think Itachi could beat a healthy Nagato?!?!?!?  

What are your thoughts???


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## Topace (Apr 4, 2018)

Healthy Nagato rapes Itachi with little effort.


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## Bonly (Apr 4, 2018)

Pain was clearly portrayed as Itachi's superior imo. Pain would win in a fight between the two, Itachi doesn't have the chakra to take out all six paths nor does he have the defense to protect himself from everything they can do, best Itachi can do is take out a path or two but that's about it. Then Itachi has to work with no knowledge so he'll need to figure out which path can do what and depending on which paths he take out and in what order, paths can be brought back via Naraka path. If Pain was to use CST,ST, and CT is more firepower then everything Itachi has soooooo adding everything else and Itachi is fighting a losing battle until his death. Nagato does even better so yeah

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 4, 2018)

There is a reason why Pein the face leader. He is stronger than Itachi. Itachi is scary good but some people are the worst matches for him
Pein is one of them.


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## Ghost Of The Uchiha (Apr 4, 2018)

Pain would mid diff itachi:
-doesnt have enough firepower to deal with CT as he needed bee's and naruto's assistance in canon   
-CST would one shot even V4
-shared vision,preta, ST and summons counter amaterasu
Healthy Nagato wastes him with little effort.


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## Ultrafragor (Apr 4, 2018)

Itachi is overpowered by Pain, but does someone want to try to explain how Nagato's real body isn't insta'd by Tsukuyomi? 

Or any level of genjutsu gg, for that matter?


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 4, 2018)

Pain slaps itachi with like mid diff

Nagato slaps like 3 itachis with neg diff

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 4, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> Itachi is overpowered by Pain, but does someone want to try to explain how Nagato's real body isn't insta'd by Tsukuyomi?
> 
> Or any level of genjutsu gg, for that matter?


Isn't Dojutsu useless against a Rinnegan user. That is why Jman used a sound based genjutsu? 
Can someone clarify?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kai (Apr 4, 2018)

Nagato makes Itachi into a small moon and calls it a day. As long as Pain gets within range of Nagato, Itachi doesn't stand much of a chance without assistance.


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## Shinobi1jutsu (Apr 4, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> Itachi is overpowered by Pain, but does someone want to try to explain how Nagato's real body isn't insta'd by Tsukuyomi?
> 
> Or any level of genjutsu gg, for that matter?



This was my whole point... how could Pain/Nagato possibly beat Itachi when Itachi can just use Tsukuyomi, and win instantly


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## Shinobi1jutsu (Apr 4, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Pain slaps itachi with like mid diff
> 
> Nagato slaps like 3 itachis with neg diff



How does Pain/Nagato win when Itachi can just use Tsukuyomi, and win instantly?!


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## Ultrafragor (Apr 4, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Isn't Dojutsu useless against a Rinnegan user. That is why Jman used a sound based genjutsu?
> Can someone clarify?



That comment would appear to be a gross misinterpretation of Sasuke saying his Susano'o was able to block out the light from the Infinite Tsukuyomi because his Susano'o was composed of Rinnegan chakra.


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## Shinobi1jutsu (Apr 4, 2018)

Kai said:


> Nagato makes Itachi into a small moon and calls it a day. As long as Pain gets within range of Nagato, Itachi doesn't stand much of a chance without assistance.




How does Pain/Nagato win when Itachi can just use Tsukuyomi, and win instantly?!


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## Shinobi1jutsu (Apr 4, 2018)

Bonly said:


> Pain was clearly portrayed as Itachi's superior imo. Pain would win in a fight between the two, Itachi doesn't have the chakra to take out all six paths nor does he have the defense to protect himself from everything they can do, best Itachi can do is take out a path or two but that's about it. Then Itachi has to work with no knowledge so he'll need to figure out which path can do what and depending on which paths he take out and in what order, paths can be brought back via Naraka path. If Pain was to use CST,ST, and CT is more firepower then everything Itachi has soooooo adding everything else and Itachi is fighting a losing battle until his death. Nagato does even better so yeah




How does Pain/Nagato win when Itachi can just use Tsukuyomi, and win instantly?!


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 4, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> That comment would appear to be a gross misinterpretation of Sasuke saying his Susano'o was able to block out the light from the Infinite Tsukuyomi because his Susano'o was composed of Rinnegan chakra.


No I was talking about reading somewhere that ocular genjutsu doesn't work on a Rinnegan user (Pain)  and that is why jiraiya used frog song. My memory about this is a bit off so yeah. If any one can confirm I'll be happy. 
Not disputing your statement, you maybe absolutely correct and I just don't know it yet so I am just asking for Confirmation.


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## Bonly (Apr 4, 2018)

Shinobi1jutsu said:


> How does Pain/Nagato win when Itachi can just use Tsukuyomi, and win instantly?!



Having a Sharingan can help break/resist Tsukuyomi. Nagato has eyes that's two lvls about that as he has the Rinnegan and they are Madara Uchiha's actual eyes. So Nagato has a good chance to break out or not be taken out by it. While Nagato doesn't have Uchiha blood in him, he does have Senju blood in him which might also do the trick. So basically Nagato has things which could help him resist Tsukuyomi enough to not be taken out or outright break out of it.


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## Ultrafragor (Apr 4, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> No I was talking about reading somewhere that ocular genjutsu doesn't work on a Rinnegan user (Pain)  and that is why jiraiya used frog song. My memory about this is a bit off so yeah. If any one can confirm I'll be happy.
> Not disputing your statement, you maybe absolutely correct and I just don't know it yet so I am just asking for Confirmation.



Its not like Jiraiya had the option to use visual genjutsu......

Reactions: Like 1


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## Maverick04 (Apr 4, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> That is why Jman used a sound based genjutsu?


Again those Paths didn't have the rinnegan..It was just a projection of rinnegan in their eyes..And the reason JMan used audio genjutsu was because he had no other alternative..Ninjutsu and taijutsu were useless as stated by Fukasaku



Ultrafragor said:


> Nagato's real body isn't insta'd by Tsukuyomi?


Maybe he can sense the Mangekyou Sharingan abilities..Then probably use something like a Panda summon to block the LOS..Thats the only logical explanation



Ultrafragor said:


> Or any level of genjutsu gg, for that matter?


Regular sharingan genjutsu against a superior dojutsu is pretty useless..And I don't know if finger genjutsu can help Itachi here either

OT: Against Paths of Pain it depends on the knowledge and whether Sharingan genjutsu would work on the paths or not..Even then Itachi can run out of chakra and die since Pain the superior of the two and Itachi would be hard-pressed into using his bigger jutsus..And CT can't be countered anyways by Itachi so it's a win for Pain mid to high diff depending on the knowledge.

Against Healthy Nagato well let me put it this way, Itachi gets molested really bad..I mean the guy while having bad legs was baby shaking KCM Naruto and Killer Bee..Itachi's only option is probably Totsuka blade and Tsukuyomi if he can catch him in one that is..While Nagato can kill him in 'n' number of ways..Itachi gets Low diff'd at worst


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 4, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> Its not like Jiraiya had the option to use visual genjutsu......


That is beside the point. Wasn't it because genjutsu doesn't work on another person with a dojutsu eye that the Uchiha had izanagi and izanami which do not require eye contact, as a counter for the eye contact thing. 
Jman having a visual genjutsu or not., I recall somewhere being said that since this frog song is a sound based one, it will work on even a a Rinnegan user. I may be wrong again with the last part of jiraiya's reasoning, but yeah the 3 eyes are supposed to negate ocular genjutsu.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 4, 2018)

RahulPK04 said:


> Again those Paths didn't have the rinnegan..It was just a projection of rinnegan in their eyes..A



OK... My bad.


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## Hi no Ishi (Apr 4, 2018)

S1: Even if Itachi comes out swinging with everything he has and he gets an Amaterasu and a Tsukiyomi off before being attacked _and_ it wasn't Preta or Deva who can just neg the flame, that still leaves 4 Pains and a Itachi on his knees coughing blood. 

Genjutsu only affects the Pain body that is hit as shown by the Jiraiya fight, so a trip to Naraka path fixes that easily. 

Pain maybe mid diff.

S2: Nagato makes Itachi his bitch again. 
Don't forget Itachi was able to tag Nagato because Nagato was murdering two high Kages while weakened and under control of someone who didn't know his powers well. 

Before that he had just been ST'd out of the fight by a Nagato he couldnt even find.

Low diff for Nagato.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Apr 4, 2018)

Itachi rapes this dude.Chibaku Tensei?Itachi slaps this dude.Shinra Tensei?Slaps this dude.Jigokudo?Useless against a speedster like Itachi.Ningendo?Completely useless.Shurado?Dodged.Chikushoudou?Bitch slapped,literally.Bansho Tenin?Incoming Amaterasu.

Plus,Do not require eye contact for genjutsu.Do not require eye contact for Tsukiyomi.Tsukiyomi cannot be broken by Uchiha Blood;Itachi was blatantly fabricating the truth.Tsukiyomi can control time and mass and matter and space.Once Pain is inside the illusion he gets atomized in the Tsukiyomi Realm,getting his soul and body completely crushed;and the hot stress would be transfered to the real life Nagato and he will helplessly die.Controlling Time makes the illusion impossible to break.Infinite time is in Itachi's Hands in that said space.Kakashi claimed Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan Genjutsu cannot be broken by anyone.Chibaku trash Tensei is vaguely understood+purposely misconcepted like the trash jutsu it is.It cannot absorb living things.If that was so Itachi could have elevated towards the core instead of standing in a foothold.Yasaka Magatama is a sacred weapon just like Totsuka No Tsurugi and Yata No Kagami.They are part of the legendary Imperial Regalia of Japan which Kishi symbolically gave to Itachi.Itachi was schooling Naruto's brain since he was so tensed on getting killed by said attack.It could actually be weird if Naruto stood there like a lifeless cow so Kishi had to give him some role.So this part of his arsenal slaps CT.He can also kill Pain/Nagato while they are constructing the technique.Totsuka trashes him,Yata mirrors his head and kills him with it.

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## Bookworm (Apr 4, 2018)

I don't know about Pain, but Nagato loses to Tsukuyomi.

Reactions: Creative 2


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## Ultrafragor (Apr 4, 2018)

RahulPK04 said:


> Again those Paths didn't have the rinnegan..It was just a projection of rinnegan in their eyes..And the reason JMan used audio genjutsu was because he had no other alternative..Ninjutsu and taijutsu were useless as stated by Fukasaku
> 
> 
> Maybe he can sense the Mangekyou Sharingan abilities..Then probably use something like a Panda summon to block the LOS..Thats the only logical explanation
> ...



I'm not sure about Nagato being fast enough to block LoS. 

And higher dojutsu aren't immediately immune to genjutsu. Maybe if Nagato could access the Sharin part of the Rinnegan he had, but he was only able to access the Rinne powers. So, he has no increased affinity towards genjutsu, definitely not compared to Itachi, the shining example of a clan whose kkg is basically genjutsu. 

EMS Sasuke and MS Itachi getting caught in Kabuto's genjutsu just because he had Sage Mode shows the superior eyes can still be trapped. Mangekyo chakra is > Senjutsu chakra (as indicated by Karin saying Sasuke's developing MS chakra was denser than his CS2 chakra and also by Madara being unimpressed with Hashirama's Senjutsu chakra and easily controlling it on his first encounter with it) 

Nagato is definitely susceptible to illusions.

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## Tri (Apr 4, 2018)

Pain likely beats Itachi by either overwhelming or outlasting him here.

Nagato should handily win.


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## savior2005 (Apr 4, 2018)

Under normal circumstances in a setting that's not Amekagure, Pein legit low diffs Itachi.
Alive Prime Nagato negs Itachi.


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## Serene Grace (Apr 4, 2018)

Nagato...Let's not discuss such a rape stomp

Pein mid diffs Itachi

Genjutsu is useless, even if we say genjutsu would work on the superior rinnegan in the first place it would likely be useless tactic against pein. We know Nagato "heard" frog song and saw inside frog song, yet we likewise know it had absolutely no impact on him. Genjutsu controls the chakra focus on, this is likely in light of the fact that the impact genjutsu does not go through Nagatos chakra rods. Genjutsu can affect the bodies, yet can't influence Nagato through them. Frog song likely worked as it did since it's described as "disconnecting its targets from the real world" which essentially removed Nagato's ability to wake them up. The paths would get caught in the genjutsu, while Nagato simply turns their chakra system off, and puts it back up again, not to mention the after effects of Tsukuyomi would be useless against dead bodies that can also just be shut down and awaken by Nagato reversing its effects.

Susanoo and Amaterasu are made useless by preta path again. I have no reason to believe that Preta wouldn't be able to absorb Itachi Susanoo quick since it  the.

From far range, Pein can use his asura lasers and rockets that were levelling buildings in the leaf village which would clearly force Itachi to use Susanoo which would ultimately hurt him in the end due to his bad stamina plus the adverse effects of Susanoo()()

Animal summonings force MS sharingan usage from Itachi especially the Cerberus which he has no means to bring down by conventional means. Genjutsu is useless as well for them since Nagato uses the receives to control them and can simply just shut their systems down as well

CT and CST are oneshots, though I'm not of the opinion that those are needed, Deva and Preta wall the fuck out of Itachi


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## Kisame (Apr 5, 2018)

Nagato might lose to Tsukiyomi but by portrayal he should high diff Itachi.

Pain would mid diff Itachi.


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## Zero890 (Apr 5, 2018)

Finger Genjutsu GG, Nagato has no feats against Genjutsu.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## The_Conqueror (Apr 5, 2018)

Pain wins mid diff with summonings as a distraction and ST and Ashura to make sure Itachi camps into susanoo after which he will leave openings soon after

Nagano destroys him low diff


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## LostSelf (Apr 5, 2018)

Nagato didn't appear when Jiraiya captured the paths in genjutsu. I don't think his mind was affected completely. Especially with other paths around.


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## Gin Ichimaru's Shadow (Apr 5, 2018)

Shinobi1jutsu said:


> .
> 
> For this question... lets assume that both are healthy, and are fighting in an open neutral environment...
> 
> ...


Nagato(healthy or not). He still has Shurado's rockets,devouring soul,ST and CT.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 5, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Nagato...Let's not discuss such a rape stomp
> 
> Pein mid diffs Itachi
> 
> ...





Ma & Pa's genjutsu works by sound. Nagato never hears the actual sound with the chakra infused in it. 

Tsukuyomi, however, works by eye contact, and we know that Itachi has the ability to control people in genjutsu's while  being outside a sensor's range. 


Also, why the hell would Itachi need to use Susano to defend against rockets and such when Jiraiya, who is SLOWER than Itachi and is LESS SMART was able to avoid it without Susano.


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## Hi no Ishi (Apr 5, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Ma & Pa's genjutsu works by sound. Nagato never hears the actual sound with the chakra infused in it.
> 
> Tsukuyomi, however, works by eye contact, and we know that Itachi has the ability to control people in genjutsu's while  being outside a sensor's range.
> 
> ...


He clearly does hear what they hear and see what they see. Both should be equally effective.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 5, 2018)

Nagato>Itachi>Pein imo


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## Sapherosth (Apr 5, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> He clearly does hear what they hear and see what they see. Both should be equally effective.




He hears it, sure, but the chakra contained within that sound isn't transferred back to Nagato. Its just sound.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 5, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Itachi rapes this dude.Chibaku Tensei?Itachi slaps this


With what 

That thing he has thats stronger than his strongest ranged jutsu that required a FRS and a TBB working in conjunction with it to break CT?

Oh wait...Itachi doesnt have any ranged technique stronger than his strongest raged technique...Thats right


Sage light said:


> Shinra Tensei?Slaps this


How 

How does Itachi slap an intangible shockwave that could level villages and decimate Boss summons and break every bone in their body and also negate ninjutsu on the level of FRS casually?

Oh thats right...He doesnt


Sage light said:


> Jigokudo?Useless against a speedster like Itachi


Jigokudo isnt a combat oriented path regardless

Although it does have a OHKO ability 

And its used to revive fallen paths...Making Itachi have to play a long game...Which he cannot do


Sage light said:


> Ningendo?Completely useless


How the fuck do you figure 

The thing could rip KCM narutos soul out of his body and he trained to resist its effects

If itachi passes in CQC range, either by his own volition or due to Deva path forcing him to do so, hes vulnerable to this technique...And its a OHKO


Sage light said:


> Shurado?Dodged


Im sure its totally that easy when fighting 6 to 1 odds with the addition of boss summons that itachi will be beset upon from all angles



Sage light said:


> Chikushoudou?Bitch slapped


Literally none of Animal paths summons are fun for itachi to deal with

If he doesnt use MS (which really hurts him in the long run to do) he isnt downing one with force


Sage light said:


> Bansho Tenin?Incoming Amaterasu


Then Deva simply has preta eat it off of him, Asura intercept it for him as hed likely be the one in front of Deva due to a combo attack if hes using BT at all, or suffers the damage for 5 seconds then STs it off of him

Or deva dies and is simply revived by Jigokudo

Either way Itachi takes 1 step forward and 2 steps back, as amaterasus costs are steep for him and pain can neg diff counter this like 4 different ways


Sage light said:


> Do not require eye contact for genjutsu.Do not require eye contact for Tsukiyomi


Are you drunk?

Visual genjutsu doesnt require eye contact?

All right bud 


Sage light said:


> Once Pain is inside the illusion he gets atomized in the Tsukiyomi Realm


Granted, Tsukuyomi is an issue, but Pain knows of Itachis abilities and has superior dojutsu to Itachi

Its possible that even in the event of getting tagged with genjutsu, he can break out of it


Sage light said:


> Controlling Time makes the illusion impossible to break


Tell that to Hebi sasuke 


Sage light said:


> Chibaku trash Tensei is vaguely understood+purposely misconcepted like the trash jutsu it is.It cannot absorb living things


Yeah...Literally all of this is wrong...And hilariously so


Sage light said:


> Yasaka Magatama is a sacred weapon just like Totsuka No Tsurugi and Yata No Kagami.


No it isnt 

Madara and Sasuke can BOTH use a better version of the jutsu than itachi can 

Its not a spirit weapon if multiple people can use it simultaneously 


Sage light said:


> this part of his arsenal slaps CT


LOL

Yasaka magatama is soloing CT

Been awhile since ive seen someone claim this BS

Had a good laugh tho so thanks 


Sage light said:


> He can also kill Pain/Nagato while they are constructing the technique


Pain?

Maybe...As it takes some prep for him to use CT...But then youd have to ignore all the other shit Pain can do aside from CT that also kills itachi without much difficulty 

Nagato?

Hell no...He can shit out CTs casually with no warning

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## Serene Grace (Apr 5, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Also, why the hell would Itachi need to use Susano to defend against rockets and such when Jiraiya, who is SLOWER than Itachi and is LESS SMART was able to avoid it without Susano.


Asura isn't in his village, therefore he nukes the fuck outta Itachi with lasers and rockets



Sapherosth said:


> Tsukuyomi, however, works by eye contact, and we know that Itachi has the ability to control people in genjutsu's while being outside a sensor's range.


Cool how does any of this prove that Nagato would be affected by the ocular genjutsu 

Did you actually read a single thing I typed


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## Hi no Ishi (Apr 5, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> He hears it, sure, but the chakra contained within that sound isn't transferred back to Nagato. Its just sound.


Then why would the chakra contained in vision reach Nagato? 

Genjutsu works the same way, audio or visual, it controls the mind through chakra.

We have seen that even controling the mind of a Pain body does not affect the real one, so why would this be different?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## 50 pesos (Apr 5, 2018)

Nagato pretty weak against genjutsu tbh so this one in Itachi's favor no matter how strong Nagato is

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Gohara (Apr 5, 2018)

I respectfully disagree with some of the interpretations of Nagato's portrayal.  Nagato being the leader of that organization is not only an act but Itachi is also acting.  So Nagato being one of the leaders doesn't necessarily suggest anything.  Being a leader of an organization is counterproductive to Itachi's role as a spy.

The Paths version of Nagato states that Jiraiya can match up on par with him.  And Kisame seems to rank Itachi superior to Jiraiya.  Itachi has also easily bested Orochimaru who is also a Legendary Sannin.  Itachi also shows no worry about Nagato in that match up.  That being said a good argument can be made for any of those characters winning.  Itachi has an edge in my opinion.

Reactions: Like 1 | Creative 1


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## Braiyan (Apr 5, 2018)

People really need to stop playing the "Pain has no defense against genjutsu because Frog Song" card (especially when Itachi is just as vulnerable to Frog Song). Even ignoring the fact that Nagato possesses the evolved version of eyes built for fighting genjutsu, there's also . 

That's Inoichi being amazed at the genjutsu blocks and traps Nagato set up in the mind of one of his subordinates, even admitting they would be . This is the same Inoichi who was brought in to extract info from Nagato's subordinate when Ibiki couldn't, Ibiki being the head of Konoha's Torture Force and a man hyped for his interrogation skills. If Nagato can develop genjutsu traps that give trouble to guys whose skills and equipment were geared towards info extraction, then he is no noob at genjutsu. He should get the benefit of the doubt to perform at least as well as _*Sakura *_did against Itachi's genjutsus.

And then there's the fact that Jiraiya spent at least as long training Nagato as he did Naruto, who knows how to defend against genjutsu. Except in Nagato's case, he does not have horrendous chakra control and was even hyped for quickly mastering everything Jiraiya taught him. It's even more likely in Nagato's case that defending against genjutsu would be one of those lessons, considering Jiraiya wanted to make sure the Ame Orphans would be able to survive in a war torn country by themselves.

Reactions: Winner 3 | Optimistic 1


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## savior2005 (Apr 5, 2018)

This isn't a matter of who wins, its a matter of how badly Itachi gets decimated.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Apr 6, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> With what
> 
> That thing he has thats stronger than his strongest ranged jutsu that required a FRS and a TBB working in conjunction with it to break CT?
> 
> Oh wait...Itachi doesnt have any ranged technique stronger than his strongest raged technique...Thats right


Itachi was teaching Naruto how to survive in tense situations.



> How
> 
> How does Itachi slap an intangible shockwave that could level villages and decimate Boss summons and break every bone in their body and also negate ninjutsu on the level of FRS casually?
> 
> Oh thats right...He doesnt


Tsunade resisted through chakra in feet.Itachi dodged ST in canon.




> Jigokudo isnt a combat oriented path regardless
> 
> Although it does have a OHKO ability
> 
> And its used to revive fallen paths...Making Itachi have to play a long game...Which he cannot do


It never'll be long.Not when The G.O.A.T is on scene.One shotted this in canon.



> How the fuck do you figure
> 
> The thing could rip KCM narutos soul out of his body and he trained to resist its effects
> 
> If itachi passes in CQC range, either by his own volition or due to Deva path forcing him to do so, hes vulnerable to this technique...And its a OHKO


Never gets caught.



> Im sure its totally that easy when fighting 6 to 1 odds with the addition of boss summons that itachi will be beset upon from all angles


He creamed a bigger, stronger, powerful version of Nagato.His speed is no joke.




> Literally none of Animal paths summons are fun for itachi to deal with


Itachi physical strength is no joke.He pushed back Naruto so easily it's not funny.This is a Itachi weaker than alive form.He could beat down the summons.



> If he doesnt use MS (which really hurts him in the long run to do) he isnt downing one with force


Doesn't need to.



> Then Deva simply has preta eat it off of him, Asura intercept it for him as hed likely be the one in front of Deva due to a combo attack if hes using BT at all, or suffers the damage for 5 seconds then STs it off of him
> 
> Or deva dies and is simply revived by Jigokudo


Bansho Tenin is unidirectional, can be dodged.Amaterasu is a living flame.Preta only absorbs chakra.
Not revival if Jigokudo gets oneshotted.




> Either way Itachi takes 1 step forward and 2 steps back, as amaterasus costs are steep for him and pain can neg diff counter this like 4 different ways


Deathbed Itachi Amaterasu covered the entire Uchiha Radius.



> Are you drunk?
> 
> Visual genjutsu doesnt require eye contact?
> 
> All right bud


Itachi controls out of sensory division.



> Granted, Tsukuyomi is an issue, but Pain knows of Itachis abilities and has superior dojutsu to Itachi


Itachi dojutsu can see everything in the universe.He takes it in superiority.



> Its possible that even in the event of getting tagged with genjutsu, he can break out of it


How?



> Tell that to Hebi sasuke


Itachi was fighting his loved one.



> Yeah...Literally all of this is wrong...And hilariously so
> 
> No it isnt
> 
> ...


Yasaka is Imperial Regalia Weapon.Combined with Totsuka Yata Deities.

Chibaku Tensei requires foot hold.The only CT absorbing living things is Six Paths CT.



> LOL
> 
> Yasaka magatama is soloing CT
> 
> Been awhile since ive seen someone claim this BS


Been a while since I have heard it not soloing.



> Had a good laugh tho so thanks


Welcome.



> Pain?
> 
> Maybe...As it takes some prep for him to use CT...But then youd have to ignore all the other shit Pain can do aside from CT that also kills itachi without much difficulty
> 
> Nagato?


Both are the same in my eyes, one is a bit stronger.



> Hell no...He can shit out CTs casually with no warning


So what? CT ain't doing sh!t anyways.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 6, 2018)

Too much trolling happening here.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 6, 2018)

Gohara said:


> I respectfully disagree with some of the interpretations of Nagato's portrayal.  Nagato being the leader of that organization is not only an act but Itachi is also acting.  So Nagato being one of the leaders doesn't necessarily suggest anything.  Being a leader of an organization is counterproductive to Itachi's role as a spy.
> 
> The Paths version of Nagato states that Jiraiya can match up on par with him.  And Kisame seems to rank Itachi superior to Jiraiya.  Itachi has also easily bested Orochimaru who is also a Legendary Sannin.  Itachi also shows no worry about Nagato in that match up.  That being said a good argument can be made for any of those characters winning.  Itachi has an edge in my opinion.


But itachi ranks himself equal to Jiraiya.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 6, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Then why would the chakra contained in vision reach Nagato?
> 
> Genjutsu works the same way, audio or visual, it controls the mind through chakra.
> 
> We have seen that even controling the mind of a Pain body does not affect the real one, so why would this be different?




You obviously didn't read my posts in this thread.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 6, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> But itachi ranks himself equal to Jiraiya.


 

He ranks himself "equal" to the Sannins, which includes Orochimaru. He never specifically stated Jiraiya's name AND he was only responding to Kisame's statements about the SANNINS. But this contradicts Oro's statement which stated that Itachi is stronger than himself (AKA Sannin). The circumstance in which he said that isn't even a question in terms of legitimacy. 

Itachi's statement on the other hand is clearly questionable given the type of ninja he is and the circumstances.


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## Hi no Ishi (Apr 6, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> You obviously didn't read my posts in this thread.


I did.

It's just that vague mentions of long distance Genjutsu does not = He can control Nagato through a pain path getting caught, because in cannon that still does not get you Nagato.

And if Genjutsu GG from a distance or through controlled bodies was a thing that would work on Nagato why didn't he just do that when he had ample opportunity, and no one watching him?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 6, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> He ranks himself "equal" to the Sannins, which includes Orochimaru. He never specifically stated Jiraiya's name AND he was only responding to Kisame's statements about the SANNINS. But this contradicts Oro's statement which stated that Itachi is stronger than himself (AKA Sannin). The circumstance in which he said that isn't even a question in terms of legitimacy.
> 
> Itachi's statement on the other hand is clearly questionable given the type of ninja he is and the circumstances.



Flawed theory. Why would he rank himself equal to Sannins in general when he already beat Orochimaru, a sannin ? They were specifically talking about Jiraiya there and not Sannin in general.
Kisame also says he might be a match for the leaf's number one and one of the 7 deadly swordsmen of the mist. It means the both of them. Jiraiya might be match for them. That is what he said. If he was referring to sannin in general, why would he say that when one of them already lost to Itachi , let alone being a match for the both ?
Further evidence that he was talking specifically about Jiraiya.
And Itachi's statement isn't questionable because he still set a trap for Jiraiya and went to capture Naruto and abandoned it when Jiraiya showed up. As I said earlier, he killed his whole clan for the village, he doesn't give a darn about Jiraiya unless he is strong and both Kisame and Itachi did nothing nad ran mainly because Itachi was out of chakra and di not want ot risk it.
So no wishful misinterpretations of what Itachi said. There is clearly no questionable circumstances. Itachi said what he means.

Reactions: Like 1 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Apr 6, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> I did.
> 
> It's just that vague mentions of long distance Genjutsu does not = He can control Nagato through a pain path getting caught, because in cannon that still does not get you Nagato.
> 
> And if Genjutsu GG from a distance or through controlled bodies was a thing that would work on Nagato why didn't he just do that when he had ample opportunity, and no one watching him?


How is it vague?Ao who saw through Kotoamatsukami said he cannot see Itachi Genjutsu.Ao sweated when he thought Itachi can control the shinobi division without being detected from long range.They meant what they said.Itachi did not use it against Nagato because he has a liking towards holding back and doing things just for fun.Remember Kabuto saying Itachi has many jutsus and powers and chose not to use it?There are several instances where Itachi 'chose' not to use certain techniques.


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## Hi no Ishi (Apr 6, 2018)

Sage light said:


> How is it vague?Ao who saw through Kotoamatsukami said he cannot see Itachi Genjutsu


Source?


Sage light said:


> Ao sweated when he thought Itachi can control the shinobi division without being detected from long range.


That would be the vague undefined reference. 
It's like me saying Ibiki claiming Pain can use any jutsu he wants means he can use Tsukiyomi on Itachi. 


Sage light said:


> Itachi did not use it against Nagato because he has a liking towards holding back and doing things just for fun.


This is your unsourced personal interpretation. Not a stated thing.


Sage light said:


> Remember Kabuto saying Itachi has many jutsus and powers and chose not to use it?


No. Source?


Sage light said:


> There are several instances where Itachi 'chose' not to use certain techniques.


This is also your personal interpretation. Not a stated fact anywhere.


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## Jackalinthebox (Apr 6, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Flawed theory. Why would he rank himself equal to Sannins in general when he already beat Orochimaru, a sannin ? They were specifically talking about Jiraiya there and not Sannin in general.
> Kisame also says he might be a match for the leaf's number one and one of the 7 deadly swordsmen of the mist. It means the both of them. Jiraiya might be match for them. That is what he said. If he was referring to sannin in general, why would he say that when one of them already lost to Itachi , let alone being a match for the both ?
> Further evidence that he was talking specifically about Jiraiya.
> And Itachi's statement isn't questionable because he still set a trap for Jiraiya and went to capture Naruto and abandoned it when Jiraiya showed up. As I said earlier, he killed his whole clan for the village, he doesn't give a darn about Jiraiya unless he is strong and both Kisame and Itachi did nothing nad ran mainly because Itachi was out of chakra and di not want ot risk it.
> So no wishful misinterpretations of what Itachi said. There is clearly no questionable circumstances. Itachi said what he means.


Flawed theory. Why would he refer to Jiraiya's strength seperate from the Sannin, when him being a Sannin was what made him view him so highly to begin with? The rest of your post is honestly just nonsense for the most part

A bunch of questionable ass stuff was said during the Akatsuki introduction. Itachi claimed Kisame would be a nonfactor against base Jiraiya, base Jiraiya was confident he could solo both Itachi & Kisame while in base & Sasuke & Naruto thought they had a chance against the Akatsuki. Yet, we know all that stuff is complete bs


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## Bookworm (Apr 6, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Flawed theory. Why would he rank himself equal to Sannins in general when he already beat Orochimaru, a sannin ? They were specifically talking about Jiraiya there and not Sannin in general.
> Kisame also says he might be a match for the leaf's number one and one of the 7 deadly swordsmen of the mist. It means the both of them. Jiraiya might be match for them. That is what he said. If he was referring to sannin in general, why would he say that when one of them already lost to Itachi , let alone being a match for the both ?
> Further evidence that he was talking specifically about Jiraiya.
> And Itachi's statement isn't questionable because he still set a trap for Jiraiya and went to capture Naruto and abandoned it when Jiraiya showed up. As I said earlier, he killed his whole clan for the village, he doesn't give a darn about Jiraiya unless he is strong and both Kisame and Itachi did nothing nad ran mainly because Itachi was out of chakra and di not want ot risk it.
> So no wishful misinterpretations of what Itachi said. There is clearly no questionable circumstances. Itachi said what he means.



Itachi didn't give one iota about Jiraiya anyway. Itachi not only turned his back on Jiraiya, but he used Tsukuyomi again, this time on Sasuke, even while Jiraiya was present and after he used it on Kakashi prior to this engagement. Itachi who's MO is to use genjutsu didn't even try to use genjutsu on Jiraiya even though Jiraiya looked him in the eyes. He didn't use Amaterasu on him even though he could kill him easily, especially in the scenario in the manga.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Apr 6, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Source?



Manga.It says 'error' when I try posting link.



> That would be the vague undefined reference.
> It's like me saying Ibiki claiming Pain can use any jutsu he wants means he can use Tsukiyomi on Itachi.


That's not what ibiki meant actually.In japanese he said "Rikudou no me wo hanasu no shinobi.......komareba donna jutsu wa jashusthemo fushigwa nai"
Which means "Six path eye possessing shinobi......no matter what kind of jutsu he uses....it's not surprising'.He was not sure of Pains abilities at that point.Shikaku says that after he is sure of Itachi's Capabilities.



> This is your unsourced personal interpretation. Not a stated thing.


Implied thing.Itachi could've killed Tobi and Pain in Akatsuki by hype alone.Because Pain never touched Konoha during his lifetime nor did Tobi.Why did he not do that?He was willing to kill his father and mother for the clan.



> No. Source?


Addressed.



> This is also your personal interpretation. Not a stated fact anywhere.


Implied interpretation.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Itachi didn't give one iota about Jiraiya anyway. Itachi not only turned his back on Jiraiya, but he used Tsukuyomi again, this time on Sasuke, even while Jiraiya was present and after he used it on Kakashi prior to this engagement. Itachi who's MO is to use genjutsu didn't even try to use genjutsu on Jiraiya even though Jiraiya looked him in the eyes. He didn't use Amaterasu on him even though he could kill him easily, especially in the scenario in the manga.


Doesn't prove much. If he didn't give an iota about Jiraiya, why set a trap for him in the first place? Reason.. Jiraiya was a factor. If he didn't give an iota about Jim why not use the ametarasu and get rid off him and make it easier? Why run?


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## Bookworm (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Doesn't prove much. If he didn't give an iota about Jiraiya, why set a trap for him in the first place? Reason.. Jiraiya was a factor. If he didn't give an iota about Jim why not use the ametarasu and get rid off him and make it easier? Why run?



Because Itachi wasn't even thinking of really fighting Jiraiya.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Flawed theory. Why would he refer to Jiraiya's strength seperate from the Sannin, when him being a Sannin was what made him view him so highly to begin with? The rest of your post is honestly just nonsense for the most part



If he had already with little effort beaten a Sannin, why should he even care about another one? Reason? He is not referring to him just because he is a Sannin.
If he could defeat orochimaru with little effort, why plan all that shit against jiraiya, both are Sannin after all? Why can't he waltz in and wreck his shit?
Based on your theory itachi should look at every jonin in konoha the same way because they all are jonins.



Jackalinthebox said:


> A bunch of questionable ass stuff was said during the Akatsuki introduction. Itachi claimed Kisame would be a nonfactor against base Jiraiya, base Jiraiya was confident he could solo both Itachi & Kisame while in base & Sasuke & Naruto thought they had a chance against the Akatsuki. Yet, we know all that stuff is complete bs



Just because itachi said someone may be a threat to him doesn't make it questionable. Ni proof to say it is questionable. Kisame thought he could be a match for the both of them. Why would he think so if he knows another Sannin already got to Itachi alone.
You seriously want to include a 12 yr old Naruto's rant with itachi in the same bracket? An itachi who has seen  and done shit? Just because a 12 yr Naruto said he could solo Akatsuki and that being bs, you going to out it on the characters who are way smarter and more experienced than him? You just bought itachi down.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Because Itachi wasn't even thinking of really fighting Jiraiya.


Was he thinking of really fighting Kakashi when they encountered ? Why not run from there too. Reason, he knows he can wreck Kakashi. 
Itachi has Naruto in his grasp, the objective of his mission and still didn't want to fight? 
Bish please.


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## Bookworm (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Was he thinking of really fighting Kakashi when they encountered ? Why not run from there too. Reason, he knows he can wreck Kakashi.
> Itachi has Naruto in his grasp, the objective of his mission and still didn't want to fight?
> Bish please.



Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu couldn't have killed Jiraiya in the manga scenario, when Jiraiya first appeared?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu couldn't have killed Jiraiya in the manga scenario, when Jiraiya first appeared?


Could they have landed perfectly in the first scenario? Let me go along with you and say they do land. Then why not kill him and take Naruto. He went through all of that shit, fought Kakashi and gave away the technique of his jutsu all to get Naruto right? Why hot foot?  
Remember when the Kakashi situation got messy and he instantly ordered Kisame for his capture and against jiraiya they just ran.


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## Bookworm (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Could they have landed perfectly in the first scenario? Let me go along with you and say they do land. Then why not kill him and take Naruto. He went through all of that shit, fought Kakashi and gave away the technique of his jutsu all to get Naruto right? Why hot foot?
> Remember when the Kakashi situation got messy and he instantly ordered Kisame for his capture and against jiraiya they just ran.


Itachi didn't actually want to capture Naruto he just wanted to send a message to Danzo, that he was alive.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Itachi didn't actually want to capture Naruto he just wanted to send a message to Danzo, that he was alive.


Then why actually set a trap for Jiraiya if he didn't want to get Naruto. He did visit his hotel. What if Jiraiya did not show up, would he be like "okay cool.. Let the boy go", no. He came to capture him and also send a message. By capturing Naruto he is sending a message..
Dont tell me he pretended to capture Naruto in the hotel and knew jiraiya or Sasuke would come at the right time to save him.


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## Bookworm (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Then why actually set a trap for Jiraiya if he didn't want to get Naruto. He did visit his hotel. What if Jiraiya did not show up, would he be like "okay cool.. Let the boy go", no. He came to capture him and also send a message. By capturing Naruto he is sending a message..
> Dont tell me he pretended to capture Naruto in the hotel and knew jiraiya or Sasuke would come at the right time to save him.


So he wouldn't have to fight Jiraiya. Itachi didn't want to capture Naruto, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't. Besides it is possibility that Itachi knew someone would come for Naruto, considering he not only told Kakashi he was there for Naruto, who knew he wanted the Kyuubi, but he said that there was a possibility of more reinforcements from Konoha. 

Hell he could of had the women act strangely to give away the fact she was under genjutsu, for instance she could of been insistent of taking as far away as possible from Naruto. There's loads of ways Itachi could gave away the fact she was under genjutsu.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> So he wouldn't have to fight Jiraiya. Itachi didn't want to capture Naruto, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't. Besides it is possibility that Itachi knew someone would come for Naruto, considering he not only told Kakashi he was there for Naruto, who knew he wanted the Kyuubi, but he said that there was a possibility of more reinforcements from Konoha.
> 
> Hell he could of had the women act strangely to give away the fact she was under genjutsu, for instance she could of been insistent of taking as far away as possible from Naruto. There's loads of ways Itachi could gave away the fact she was under genjutsu.


And why wouldn't he want to fight jiraiya when  he so eagerly fought Kakashi?
You saying he wanted get Naruto so someone else couldn't? 
And you are actually suggesting itachi used his genjutsu to create suspicion in Jiraiya. Really bruh.
Based on what evidence is this.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jackalinthebox (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> If he had already with little effort beaten a Sannin, why should he even care about another one? Reason? He is not referring to him just because he is a Sannin.
> If he could defeat orochimaru with little effort, why plan all that shit against jiraiya, both are Sannin after all? Why can't he waltz in and wreck his shit?
> Based on your theory itachi should look at every jonin in konoha the same way because they all are jonins.
> 
> ...


Your entire argument holds no weight. Kisame & Jiraiya hyped up Jiraiya based on him being a Sannin. They had nothing else to go off of. The Sannin are supposed to be on the same level, so your all Jonin being equal example falls flat 

I'm saying a bunch of dumb shit was said in those chapters. Stuff that was later contradicted. Kurenai & Asuma are experienced Jonin, yet even with knowledge on the Akatsuki duo, they still thought they had it in the bag. Characters underrate and overrate eachother all the time

You don't honestly believe Itachi's statements are all actually true do you? That would basically mean that base Jiraiya = Itachi + Kisame + at least one other Akatsuki member. Would also mean base Jiraiya >> Orochimaru...neither of those things are even remotely accurate


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## Bookworm (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> And why wouldn't he want to fight jiraiya when  he so eagerly fought Kakashi?
> You saying he wanted get Naruto so someone else couldn't?
> And you are actually suggesting itachi used his genjutsu to create suspicion in Jiraiya. Really bruh.
> Based in what evidence is this.



He fought Kakashi because he was insistent on learning the Akatsuki's goal of capturing Naruto. 
I'm saying he didn't want to capture Naruto, but he would to keep if he thought necessary. 
I'm saying he _could_ of created suspicion in Jiraiya.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> And why wouldn't he want to fight jiraiya when  he so eagerly fought Kakashi?
> You saying he wanted get Naruto so someone else couldn't?
> And you are actually suggesting itachi used his genjutsu to create suspicion in Jiraiya. Really bruh.
> Based in what evidence is this.



When did he "so eagerly fought kakashi" ?  It was explicitly stated by Kakashi himself that Itachi didn't kill him on purpose.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Then why actually set a trap for Jiraiya if he didn't want to get Naruto. He did visit his hotel. What if Jiraiya did not show up, would he be like "okay cool.. Let the boy go", no. He came to capture him and also send a message. By capturing Naruto he is sending a message..
> Dont tell me he pretended to capture Naruto in the hotel and knew jiraiya or Sasuke would come at the right time to save him.





You do realise that Itachi can control the woman from a distance, right?   Itachi could have easily allowed Jiraiya to identify that the girl was in a genjutsu. That's how he was able to be absolutely sure that Jiraiya would come save Naruto on time AND act as if he's trying to capture Naruto at the same time. 


Most people miss this fact. Itachi can control the woman to act suspicious so Jiraiya catches on.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Zero890 (Apr 7, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> When did he "so eagerly fought kakashi" ?  It was explicitly stated by Kakashi himself that Itachi didn't kill him on purpose.




*Spoiler*: __ 








How lucky that Gai arrived

Reactions: Like 2


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> When did he "so eagerly fought kakashi" ?  It was explicitly stated by Kakashi himself that Itachi didn't kill him on purpose.


Eagerly doesn't mean fight to kill. Naruto wanted to fight Sasuke during the ce, and Lee wanted to eagerly fight Neji eagerly doesn't mean they wanted to kill each other. 
Eagerly here means fighting without a second thought. Which he did against Kakashi but not against Jiraiya. Because reasons.


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## Zero890 (Apr 7, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Most people miss this fact. Itachi can control the woman to act suspicious so Jiraiya catches on.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> You do realise that Itachi can control the woman from a distance, right?   Itachi could have easily allowed Jiraiya to identify that the girl was in a genjutsu. That's how he was able to be absolutely sure that Jiraiya would come save Naruto on time AND act as if he's trying to capture Naruto at the same time.
> 
> 
> Most people miss this fact. Itachi can control the woman to act suspicious so Jiraiya catches on.


Just because he can, does not mean he did. Why would he even have to. He doesn't give a shit about Jiraiya. There is zero backing apart from the fact that you so badly want it to that way, which isn't evidence In  fact.
Itachi was all good with Kisame killing Asuma and Kurenei and you say he didn't want anyone to die. 
You say he didn't want to capture Naruto but manga suggests otherwise. You say he made the girl act weird while the manga doesn't even back it up.


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## Zero890 (Apr 7, 2018)

Wait, he's Itachi....

He had planned that Jiraiya miraculously arrives to save Naruto and he is a great sensor and knew that Gai was also going to get to save Kakashi.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Bookworm (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Just because he can, does not mean he did. Why would he even have to. He doesn't give a shit about Jiraiya. There is zero backing apart from the fact that you so badly want it to that way, which isn't evidence I  fact.



There's zero evidence that Itachi couldn't have just Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi Jiraiya and been done with it.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> There's zero evidence that Itachi couldn't have just Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi Jiraiya and been done with it.


I never said he couldn't, I said he didn't and that is fact. He didn't because he knew better. He had wasted his  Chakra by giving bad dreams to his brother and was out of gas.
If it was so easy, why didn't he. He was okay with using it on Kakashi, why not jiraiya and be done with him. No more obstacles.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Bookworm (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> I never said he couldn't, I said he didn't and that is fact. *He didn't because he knew better.* He had wanted his  Chakra by giving bad dreams to his brother and was out of gas.
> If it was so easy, why didn't he. He was okay with using it on Kakashi, why not jiraiya and be done with him. No more obstacles.



It doesn't matter why he didn't, the more fact that Itachi could use Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi to end the battle with Jiraiya instantly, is enough. What you just said in the bolded part of the quote, answers your question. According to you he used it on Sasuke and was out of chakra, hence why he didn't use it on Jiraiya. Itachi thought Sasuke was more important than Naruto or Jiraiya.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> It doesn't matter why he didn't, the more fact that Itachi could use Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi to end the battle with Jiraiya instantly, is enough. What you just said answers your question. According to you he used it on Sasuke and was out of chakra, hence why he didn't use it on Jiraiya. Itachi thought Sasuke was more important than Naruto or Jiraiya.



He still had enough for an amaterasu he used later so no. He could have used it on jiraiya on sight. But he didn't and ran. Why,, because reasons...
He had zero issues wasting it on Kakashi which proved costly on the long run. And yet he didn't use amaterasu on Jiraiya... If he did, he could have taken Naruto and be done.


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## Bookworm (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> He still had enough for an amaterasu he used later so no. He could have used it on jiraiya on sight. But he didn't and ran. Why,, because reasons...
> He had zero issues wasting it on Kakashi which proved costly on the long run. And yet he didn't use amaterasu on Jiraiya... If he did, he could have taken Naruto and be done.



Like I said it really doesn't matter why he didn't, Itachi could have ended the battle instantly.


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## Zero890 (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> It doesn't matter why he didn't, the more fact that Itachi could use Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi to end the battle with Jiraiya instantly, is enough. What you just said in the bolded part of the quote, answers your question. According to you he used it on Sasuke and was out of chakra, hence why he didn't use it on Jiraiya. Itachi thought Sasuke was more important than Naruto or Jiraiya.



You are applying the "why he did not do this or that" that happens in many battles in this manga, to give some examples: 

why Jiraiya did not use Gamagushi Shibari in the hall and killed the 3 Paths of Pain without much trouble ? 

Why does not Kakashi use more Jutsus if is supposed to have a thousand? 

Why did not Hashirama use Shinsusenju against Jubito? 

Why did not Kakashi use Kamui in Tendo?

If Itachi does not use anything, it's because he could not, that's all.


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## Bookworm (Apr 7, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> You are applying the "why he did not do this or that" that happens in many battles in this manga, to give some examples:
> 
> why Jiraiya did not use Gamagushi Shibari in the hall and killed the 3 Paths of Pain without much trouble ?
> 
> ...



So you're saying Itachi could not use Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi on Jiraiya?


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## Zero890 (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> So you're saying Itachi could not use Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi on Jiraiya?



Yes.


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## Jackalinthebox (Apr 7, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Yes.


No.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Zero890 (Apr 7, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> No.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Like I said it really doesn't matter why he didn't, Itachi could have ended the battle instantly.


Like I said. He didn't.. And ran. Which means he knew better not to.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Your entire argument holds no weight. Kisame & Jiraiya hyped up Jiraiya based on him being a Sannin. They had nothing else to go off of. The Sannin are supposed to be on the same level, so your all Jonin being equal example falls flat.


So you do believe Itachi regards all jonin as equal cause he regards all sannin as equal without loooking at individual abilities ? 



Jackalinthebox said:


> I'm saying a bunch of dumb shit was said in those chapters. Stuff that was later contradicted. Kurenai & Asuma are experienced Jonin, yet even with knowledge on the Akatsuki duo, they still thought they had it in the bag. Characters underrate and overrate eachother all the time.



All the examples you gave are characters underrating opponents and not themselves as you say happened with Itachi here.
So no, there is no reason for Itachi to generalize  say he is a threat just because he is a sannin. He already beat one sannin so he doesn't need to hype jiraiya unless he was looking at his potential and not the mere fact that he is a sannin. ( which again has no evidence btw)



Jackalinthebox said:


> You don't honestly believe Itachi's statements are all actually true do you?


I or even you for that matter don't have a shred of proof to say that Itachi lying..so yes. 



Jackalinthebox said:


> That would basically mean that base Jiraiya = Itachi + Kisame + at least one other Akatsuki member. Would also mean base Jiraiya >> Orochimaru...neither of those things are even remotely accurate


That is the mistake in the way you look at this. Just because A beats B and B beats C doesn't mean A beats C. Ity all depends on the individuals in every combat. Killer Bee got beat by Kisame who got beat by might guy.. Doesn't mean Guy is stronger than bee or would beat him automatically cause he beat Kisame and Kisame beat him. One type of ninja has an advantage over an another specific type. That is all. You pooling all the sannin together and saying Itachi also did the same is meaningless.


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## Jackalinthebox (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> So you do believe Itachi regards all jonin as equal cause he regards all sannin as equal without loooking at individual abilities ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How are you still managing to miss the point? The Sannin are supposed to be comparable. It's not a generic rank like Chunin or Jonin or even Kage. Your example doesn't work, point blank


Characters have underrated themselves too. Obito for example said he would be dead if Itachi knew more about him, but that's honestly doubtful.

You might as well change your argument already...you have nothing to go off of. Jiraiya was being hyped because he was a Sannin, Itachi & Kisame have nothing else to go off of. Theres absolutely nothing to suggest they've ever seen eachother fight. Yet you wanna make assumptions instead of just going with what was blatantly shown to be the case 


Except Jiraiya isn't a hard counter to any of these characters and that can only take you so far to begin with. Just concede, you have no leg to stand on


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> How are you still managing to miss the point? The Sannin are supposed to be comparable. It's not a generic rank like Chunin or Jonin or even Kage. Your example doesn't work, point blank..


Sannin isn't even a rank and doesn't need to be comparable. It could have been any 3 Ninja who cornered hanzo. It hljust means 3 ninja. Your comparison is invalid.



Jackalinthebox said:


> You might as well change your argument already...you have nothing to go off of. Jiraiya was being hyped because he was a Sannin, Itachi & Kisame have nothing else to go off of. Theres absolutely nothing to suggest they've ever seen eachother fight. Yet you wanna make assumptions instead of just going with what was blatantly shown to be the case


And yet you have nothing to show that it was based solely on him being a Sannin. People keep arguing that Itachi knows about jmans sage mode and here someone says he only knows he's  a Sannin. Itachi is a learned genius according to fans and he doesn't know anything about jiraiya's rep apart from him being a Sannin?
Why don't you itachi fans stick to one.
And instead of asking me to back down, show some evidence and make me.




Jackalinthebox said:


> Except Jiraiya isn't a hard counter to any of these characters and that can only take you so far to begin with. Just concede, you have no leg to stand on


And you think itachi knows jiraiya isn't a hard counter and only spared him? Doesn't matter if he is a hard counter or not.He still did nothing to Jiraiya and ran. Jman at least tried to trap them. Itachi's reaction was to run.
So instead of begging me to give up, give me proofs to say that Itachi was lying or bluffing.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Sannin isn't even a rank and doesn't need to be comparable. It could have been any 3 Ninja who cornered hanzo. It hljust means 3 ninja. Your comparison is invalid.



If Jiraiya was a special case, why not just mention Jiraiya alone? Why mention "Sannin" ? 




> And yet you have nothing to show that it was based solely on him being a Sannin. People keep arguing that Itachi knows about jmans sage mode and here someone says he only knows he's  a Sannin. Itachi is a learned genius according to fans and he doesn't know anything about jiraiya's rep apart from him being a Sannin?
> Why don't you itachi fans stick to one.
> And instead of asking me to back down, show some evidence and make me.



Funny how no names were mentioned and only the title Sannin was. 




> And you think itachi knows jiraiya isn't a hard counter and only spared him? Doesn't matter if he is a hard counter or not.He still did nothing to Jiraiya and ran. Jman at least tried to trap them. Itachi's reaction was to run.
> So instead of begging me to give up, give me proofs to say that Itachi was lying or bluffing.



Plenty of proof was already given. You just decide to ignore it and stick to ONE statement despite the fact that it contradicts many other statements and feats.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> If Jiraiya was a special case, why not just mention Jiraiya alone? Why mention "Sannin" ?.



He said he is one of the Sannin .. As in identity .  They were practically observing them so It is pretty damn clear he was particularly talking about jiraiya.
When you look at someone and talk about them, you don't need to use names. It is understood who you are referring to. 





Sapherosth said:


> Funny how no names were mentioned and only the title Sannin was..


Because they knew who they were referring to as they were looking at them. They can use he/she instead of names. That is basic English.






Sapherosth said:


> Plenty of proof was already given. You just decide to ignore it and stick to ONE statement despite the fact that it contradicts many other statements and feats.


Yeah. Plenty proof about how you'd like it to be that way but no actual canonical proof. You so desperately want itachi and Kisame's statements to be bluffs but have zero proof to say otherwise. If a statement has no ulterior meanings it is to be taken as a fact. Here Itachi's statements have none.
So yeah... Still no Canonically accurate proof but all hypothesis and speculations.


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## Bookworm (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Like I said. He didn't.. And ran. Which means he knew better not to.



So Jiraiya is stronger than Itachi, because Itachi didn't use MS to one shot Jiraiya, when he could have?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> So Jiraiya is stronger than Itachi, because Itachi didn't use MS to one shot Jiraiya, when he could have?


Why do you draw to conclusions which I didn't even state. Never have I Said jiraiya or either one is stronger because there was no Canonical evidence on who is strong or weak.. All we know are through Itachi's statements which puts them on a somewhat equal footing.. Itachi knew better not to tangle with him in that scenario  and left.. That is what I said because that is what happened.
There was nothing stopping itachi from using any of those techniques but he didn't so stop with the notion that Itachi spared him for the sake of the village and shit. He does not give a shit. . That must say something about where they stand.


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## Mar55 (Apr 7, 2018)

Seems the Itachi brigade is returning to full force, what a time we have ahead of us.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Bookworm (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Why do you draw to conclusions which I didn't even state. Never have I Said jiraiya or either one is stronger because there was no Canonical evidence on who is strong or weak.. All we know are through Itachi's statements which puts them on a somewhat equal footing.. Itachi knew better not to tangle with him in that scenario  and left.. That is what I said because that is what happened.
> There was nothing stopping itachi from using any of those techniques but he didn't so stop with the notion that Itachi spared him for the sake of the village and shit. He does not give a shit. . That must say something about where they stand.



Itachi is a known liar, Itachi said only someone with a sharingan and the kekkai genkai can stop him, if Jiraiya can stop him than that contradicts that statement.

 It says nothing about where they stand that Itachi didn't use Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi on Jiraiya, the only way that can be used to indicate where they stand is if you assume that the techniques wouldn't OHKO Jiraiya. Your assuming Itachi didn't use MS because you think wouldn't be effective.


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## Jackalinthebox (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Sannin isn't even a rank and doesn't need to be comparable. It could have been any 3 Ninja who cornered hanzo. It hljust means 3 ninja. Your comparison is invalid.
> 
> 
> And yet you have nothing to show that it was based solely on him being a Sannin. People keep arguing that Itachi knows about jmans sage mode and here someone says he only knows he's  a Sannin. Itachi is a learned genius according to fans and he doesn't know anything about jiraiya's rep apart from him being a Sannin?
> ...


You're an idiot. You just keep ignoring what's said in favor of twisting things to fit your asinine rhetoric. Id be better off talking to a brick wall

Nice to know I wasted my time. Well have fun sounding like a perpetual dumbass as you continue your shit posting


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> You're an idiot. You just keep ignoring what's said in favor of twisting things to fit your asinine rhetoric. Id be better off talking to a brick wall
> 
> Nice to know I wasted my time. Well have fun sounding like a perpetual dumbass as you continue your shit posting


Classic internet warrior resorting to abuse... 
Please by all means.. Pour out your itachi fantasies to said brick wall.

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Itachi is a known liar, Itachi said only someone with a sharingan and the kekkai genkai can stop him, if Jiraiya can stop him than that contradicts that statement


He said someone with a sharingan kekkei can break out of Tsukuyomi not stop him. Enough fantasies. 
He is not a known liar.. No proof  he only lied to Sasuke. He has no reason to lie here if he could have taken out jiraiya at his whim. 



Trolling said:


> It says nothing about where they stand that Itachi didn't use Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi on Jiraiya, the only way that can be used to indicate where they stand is if you assume that the techniques wouldn't OHKO Jiraiya. Your assuming Itachi didn't use MS because you think wouldn't be effective.


Nope.. Never said it wouldn't be Ineffective. 
I only said itachi bailed out cause he didn't want any trouble in that situation.  Nor have I assumed anything about the effectiveness of an attack. 
How many people gave eaten the amaterasu and how many have died? Do a count. 
Having a ohko=/= instant victory. Other ninjas can also dodge and attack you know. And itachi knew that. So he bailed.


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## Bookworm (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> He said someone with a sharingan kekkei can break out of Tsukuyomi not stop him. Enough fantasies.
> He is not a known liar.. No proof he only lied to Sasuke. He has no reason to lie here if he could have taken out jiraiya at his whim.


Nope he said only someone with a sharingan and kekkai genkai can stop him, in the Viz translation. lol



PradyumnaR said:


> Nope.. Never said it wouldn't be Ineffective.
> I only said itachi bailed out cause he didn't want any trouble in that situation. Nor have I assumed anything about the effectiveness of an attack.
> How many people gave eaten the amaterasu and how many have died? Do a count.
> Having a ohko=/= instant victory. Other ninjas can also dodge and attack you know. And itachi knew that. So he bailed.


So Jiraiya would dodge Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu? Your assuming that Itachi knew that Itachi knew that Jiraiya would be able to dodge Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi 

And since were taking statements at face value, Zetsu said Itachi was invincible and Sasuke said that Itachi was perfect, so Jiraiya isn't equal to Itachi at all.


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## Zero890 (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> So Jiraiya would dodge Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu?
> 
> And since were taking statements at face value, Zetsu said Itachi was invincible and Sasuke said that Itachi was perfect, so Jiraiya isn't equal to Itachi at all.



Itachi said that in the best case they would die and he would take Kisame into account. 

Jiraiya> invincibility

Reactions: Like 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Nope he said only someone with a sharingan and kekkai genkai can stop him, in the Viz translation. lol
> 
> 
> So Jiraiya would dodge Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu?
> ...


So .. Zetsu is as credible as itachi now? I don't have a problem with that. But I assume itachi knows more about himself than zetsu. 

And nope, he referred to Tsukuyomi.  Why don't you open a new thread and see what people think about it. ( wait isn't he a known liar? ). But let me entertain your wish here and assume he said he was talking about himself in general, that would be all the more reason for him to not attack jiraiya and run. 
But if he was saying the truth, then him saying jiraiya cannot be taken down by him is also true. Same person said both statements.


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## Gohara (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> But itachi ranks himself equal to Jiraiya.



Right but he's acting because he's a spy, Itachi is on the same team as Jiraiya.  Kisame seems surprised because he ranks Itachi superior to Jiraiya.  And Itachi has far superior portrayal to another Legendary Sannin.  So that makes me think that Itachi is superior to Jiraiya who is around the same tier as the Paths version of Nagato.


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## Bookworm (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> So .. Zetsu is as credible as itachi now? I don't have a problem with that. But I assume itachi knows more about himself than zetsu.
> 
> And nope, he referred to Tsukuyomi. Why don't you open a new thread and see what people think about it. ( wait isn't he a known liar? ). But let me entertain your wish here and assume he said he was talking about himself in general, that would be all the more reason for him to not attack jiraiya and run.
> But if he was saying the truth, then him saying jiraiya cannot be taken down by him is also true. Same person said both statements.


Itachi said he thought himself to be unstoppable, after the first time he said he could only be stopped by a sharingan user, there's no conflict with what Zetsu said.

Itachi said that only someone with a kekkai genkai and sharingan can stop him. Why? He didn't say, lol. I'll humor you though, even if he meant he couldn't be stopped by non sharingan users because of Tsukuyomi, he still thought it to be true.

So Itachi was lying when he said that he only a sharingan user could stop him, but not when he said that Jiraiya could beat him?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Gohara said:


> Right but he's acting because he's a spy, Itachi is on the same team as Jiraiya.  Kisame seems surprised because he ranks Itachi superior to Jiraiya.  And Itachi has far superior portrayal to another Legendary Sannin.  So that makes me think that Itachi is superior to Jiraiya who is around the same tier as the Paths version of Nagato.


He is a spy but only when it's good for the village. It doesn't stop him from doing other crimes for akatsuki. He doesn't care about jiraiya because dead jiraiya or captured Naruto =/= konoha in danger. And logically, he had no reason to lie.
He said fighting Kakashi would be at cost, that was true.
He told not to underestimate guy, that was also true. So why would only this be a lie.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Itachi said he thought himself to be unstoppable, after the first time he said he could only be stopped by a sharingan user, there's no conflict with what Zetsu said.
> 
> Itachi said that only someone with a kekkai genkai and sharingan can stop him. Why? He didn't say, lol. I'll humor you though, even if he meant he couldn't be stopped by non sharingan users because of Tsukuyomi, he still thought it.
> 
> So Itachi was lying when he said that he only a sharingan user could stop him, but not when he said that Jiraiya could beat him?


Like I said before, he never said only a sharingan user can stop him. That's your version. He said only a sharingan kekkei can break out of Tsukuyomi. So I say he is telling the truth both times.


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## Bookworm (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Like I said before, he never said only a sharingan user can stop him. That's your version. He said only a sharingan kekkei can break out of Tsukuyomi. So I say he is telling the truth both times.



In the Viz version yes he did. 

And than he said he during a completely different time that he thought himself unstoppable.


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## Gohara (Apr 7, 2018)

Jiraiya is amazing for the village and besting Jiraiya would hinder that village significantly, and his reason for lying is so that he has an excuse​

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> In the Viz version yes he did.
> 
> And than he said he during a completely different time that he thought himself unstoppable.


Okay.. Let us say he did call himself invincible. Isn't it sad that he knows he is unbeatable and yet ranks himself below jiraiya even with Kisame's help. 
So in Itachi's words and not mine 
Jiraiya > Itachi... ( he always tells the truth)


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Gohara said:


> Jiraiya is amazing for the village and besting Jiraiya would hinder that village significantly, and his reason for lying is so that he has an excuse​


With much respect... I'd disagree. He only steers akatsuki clear from Konoha. Not everyone else. He knew orochimaru was hell bent to destroy konoha yet he didn't kill him even when he had a chance . He didn't even care when it was attacked.
His job as a spy is to keep akatsuki away from the village. Not everyone else.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mar55 (Apr 7, 2018)

>calls Kakashi skilled and praises his ability
>says not underestimate Guy and praises his ability
>says Jiraiya is about his level and praises his ability

But he was only lying about Jiraiya? Sure thing, kiddo.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Winner 1


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## The_Conqueror (Apr 7, 2018)

Jiraiyas portrayal throught the manga states shows that Itachis statement was not just a hoax but a fact 

"Jiraiya confirmed that he has ascended past the title of sanin and has achieved the epitome of frog arts that is sage mode" 

"In pt2 there was a mention of jiraiya being around the reason why akastuki. Could not make a move"

"Portrayed strong enough to threaten the leader of akatsuki under no knowledge circumstances in his own turf"

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 2


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## Zero890 (Apr 7, 2018)

Gohara said:


> Jiraiya is amazing for the village and besting Jiraiya would hinder that village significantly, and his reason for lying is so that he has an excuse​



Kakashi killing was also bad for the village and capturing Naruto was also bad (in the sense that Akatsuki would get a Biju) and Itachi was close to doing both ... killing Jiraiya was a minor problem than capturing Naruto.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Bookworm (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Okay.. Let us say he did call himself invincible. Isn't it sad that he knows he is unbeatable and yet ranks himself below jiraiya even with Kisame's help.
> So in Itachi's words and not mine
> Jiraiya > Itachi... ( he always tells the truth)



Well if you want to take both statements to be true, even though their contradictory, by all means do so.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Well if you want to take both statements to be true, even though their contradictory, by all means do so.


It's your problem you only want his statement about jiraiya to be a bluff when he has praised others also, which turned out to be true. 
And nope, as I said you misinterpreted his statement about sharingan to suit your fantasy. So no contradiction here. Even if it was, still under the words of most truthful itachi ( who for some odd reason only lies when said subject is jiraiya ) 
Jiraiya >Itachi ( unbeatable  just so you forget )


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## Kai (Apr 7, 2018)

Mar55 said:


> >calls Kakashi skilled and praises his ability
> >says not underestimate Guy and praises his ability
> >says Jiraiya is about his level and praises his ability
> 
> But he was only lying about Jiraiya? Sure thing, kiddo.


Yet just one chapter prior when he says he can't be defeated except by one with Uchiha blood, he's lying



And yet, just one chapter afterwards Kisame still questions why retreat is necessary with [Itachi's] power, Itachi simply says there's no need to be impatient and that he used Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, needing rest.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Bookworm (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> It's your problem you only want his statement about jiraiya to be a bluff when he has praised others also, which turned out to be true.
> And nope, as I said you misinterpreted his statement about sharingan to suit your fantasy. So no contradiction here. Even if it was, still under the words of most truthful itachi ( who for some odd reason only lies when said subject is jiraiya )
> Jiraiya >Itachi ( unbeatable just so you forget )


What does Itachi praising others have to do with him praising Jiraiya?

He said he thought himself unstoppable to Sasuke, with no mention of sharingan. This was several years after he made the first comment about only a sharingan user could stop him. So yes, there is contradiction.


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## Mar55 (Apr 7, 2018)

Kai said:


> Yet just one chapter prior when he says he can't be defeated except by one with Uchiha blood, he's lying


Obviously, since it refers to the ability to deal with his Sharingan and, more specifically, Tsukuyomi. Regardless I don't see how that even relates to what I said, since I never said he was lying to begin with.


Kai said:


> And yet, just one chapter afterwards Kisame still questions why retreat is necessary with [Itachi's] power, Itachi simply says there's no need to be impatient and that he used Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, needing rest.


I'm missing what the point of this statement was....? He used 2 MS moves, we know those take a toll. What's the confusion?

Also, that's a gross misuse of that emote.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> What does Itachi praising others have to do with him praising Jiraiya?
> 
> He said he thought himself unstoppable to Sasuke, with no mention of sharingan. This was several years after he made the first comment about only a sharingan user could stop him. So yes, there is contradiction.


OH it has everything to do with it.. Why does he only have to lie about jiraiya ? Any concrete proof on why he bluffs about jiraiya's ability but praises guy and Kakashi ? Nope.. Because your bluff fantasy forgot to take that Into account.
According to you.. Anything pro itachi true.. But anything anti is a bluff  even if he says it himself( for no practical or logical reason that too ).
Slow clap.


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## Bookworm (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> OH it has everything to do with it.. Why does he only have to lie about jiraiya ? Any concrete proof on why he bluffs about jiraiya's ability but praises guy and Kakashi ? Nope.. Because your bluff fantasy forgot to take that Into account.
> According to you.. Anything pro itachi true.. But anything anti is a bluff ( for no practical or logical reason ).
> Slow clap.


Any concrete proof that Itachi was lying when he said only someone with a sharingan can stop him?
What was stopping Itachi from OHKO'ing Jiraiya with Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu when he first saw Jiraiya?


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## Mar55 (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Any concrete proof that Itachi was lying when he said only someone with a sharingan can stop him?


Lie or not isn't the issue, we know others without said blood can beat him, because they demonstrated the capability to do so. Like say Kabuto, or Kakashi, or Pain, or Tobirama, or Minato, or Hashirama, etc.


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## Mar55 (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> What was stopping Itachi from OHKO'ing Jiraiya with Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu when he first saw Jiraiya?


Tsukuyomi relies on eye contact, something that's seemingly ignored in all debates involving Itachi.

Amaterasu is a much more valid attempt, but nothing can be said on that front, since Jiraiya simply never faced off against it.


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## Bookworm (Apr 7, 2018)

Mar55 said:


> Lie or not isn't the issue, we know others without said blood can beat him, because they demonstrated the capability to do so. Like say Kabuto, or Kakashi, or Pain, or Tobirama, or Minato, or Hashirama, etc.


 Itachi demonstrated he could OHKO Jiraiya, especially in the manga scenario.


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## Mar55 (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Itachi demonstrated he could OHKO Jiraiya, especially in the manga scenario.


Okay....? This doesn't really mean anything. It's not even relevant to the debate at hand, which should be about Pain and Itachi.


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## Bookworm (Apr 7, 2018)

Mar55 said:


> Okay....? This doesn't really mean anything.



It means Itachi could have easily beaten Jiraiya if he used Amaterasu on him.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Any concrete proof that Itachi was lying when he said only someone with a sharingan can stop him?
> What was stopping Itachi from OHKO'ing Jiraiya with Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu when he first saw Jiraiya?


No need to prove he was talking about Tsukuyomi and was telling the truth. Simple. You have twisted it to suit your fantasy here.
I've answered this before and yet to go back to this one question again and again. SMH
Other Shinobi can dodge and attack as well.
Having a OHKo =/= instant win. It should land. Jiraiya ain't gonna wait, he has seen more battle years than Itachi's adulthood.
Itachi knows that, especially when he is up against a man he thought was superior to him.

And yeah.. He demonstrated he could OHKo Jman by turning The other way and hot footing it out of there like a black friday sale. Yeah. You just keep dragging Itachi's credibility down in your attempts.


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## Zero890 (Apr 7, 2018)

@PradyumnaR


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## Kai (Apr 7, 2018)

Mar55 said:


> I'm missing what the point of this statement was....? He used 2 MS moves, we know those take a toll. What's the confusion?


Everything Itachi says checks out and Kisame wouldn't need to question him anything, and yet Kisame pushes the envelope like the author intends.

Kisame questioned why retreat was necessary [with Itachi's power] even after encountering Jiraiya. Itachi's only response was "There's no need to be impatient...none." Then he mentions how he also needs to rest.

Searching for the "Fourth Hokage's legacy", who was with Jiraiya, was a lie. He came to the village to send a message to Danzo and counselors he was still alive.

Only one who possessed his bloodline possibly defeating him was also a lie.

Itachi aiming to kill Sasuke with his moves was a lie. If he wanted to, Sasuke would be dead as made clear by Tobi. He even calculated Sasuke's 'contingency plans' to force Orochimaru out of Sasuke's body as also outright stated by Tobi.

Itachi stated Madara stole Izuna's eyes to gain the EMS and that was also a complete lie. Izuna willingly offered his eyes as shown in the flashback.

So asking why Itachi "only lied about Jiraiya" is a complete misnomer as not only was his character as a double agent built to lie from the beginning, half of his damn lies exist in the same arc as when they encounter J-man and Naruto, an encounter that in of itself was completely irrelevant to Itachi's goals.


According to FANZ logic, Itachi should have told Kisame he _already_ told him he and J-man would end up killing each other in their first conversation when Kisame asked why they were retreating.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Zero890 (Apr 7, 2018)

Itachi says that nobody who is not an Uchiha can defeat him = true. 

Jiraiya says he can kill Kisame and Itachi at the same time = false.


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## Bookworm (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> No need to prove he was talking about Tsukuyomi and was telling the truth. Simple. You have twisted it to suit your fantasy here.
> I've answered this before and yet to go back to this one question again and again. SMH
> Other Shinobi can dodge and attack as well.
> Having a OHKo =/= instant win. It should land. Jiraiya ain't gonna wait, he has seen more battle years than Itachi's adulthood.
> ...



Really, how so? I said Itachi said no one can stop him, but a sharingan user, whether or not it's because of Tsukuyomi doesn't matter, he didn't think someone without a sharingan could stop him. 
First Amaterasu doesn't take long activate. Second Do you have any proof that Jiraiya would attack Itachi before he used Amaterasu.


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## Zero890 (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> First Amaterasu doesn't take long activate.




*Spoiler*: __


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## Bookworm (Apr 7, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> *Spoiler*: __



Itachi used Amaterasu after one panel when he was escaping from Jiraiya's jutsu.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Really, how so? I said Itachi said no one can stop him, but a sharingan user, whether or not it's because of Tsukuyomi doesn't matter, he didn't think someone without a sharingan could stop him.


He said someone only with a sharingan and kekkei can break his tsukuyomi. Not that only a sharingan heir can defeat him.
He said it because kakashi thought he can stand upto Itachi's Mangekyou jutsu with his sharingan. Otherwise itachi has no reason to even state it. Why would he give away ways to defeat himself out of context.... SMH ( classic example of favorable misinterpretation )


Trolling said:


> First Amaterasu doesn't take long activate. Second Do you have any proof that Jiraiya would attack Itachi before he used Amaterasu.


Jiraiya has so many attacks that take lesser time than Amaterasu. And he did attack by using Toad Mouth trap.
And i said Jiraiya doesn't need to attack before the amaterasu is launched. He can dodge.

And..let me use your logic for a second ( I'm am momentarily equating myself to  you with these...)
1. Any proof that Itachi can activate Amaterasu before Jman can attack ?
2. Any proof Itachi can use the tsukuyomi before Jman can attack ?
3 . Any proof Itachi can use tsukuyomi twice without break ?
4 . Any proof Itachi can attack Jiraiya before he does something ? ( I know he can run before Jiraiya attacks...but doesn't count )


Answer these the next time you quote me or reply to me.


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## Zero890 (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Itachi used Amaterasu after one panel when he was escaping from Jiraiya's jutsu.



That does not mean that it does not take time to activate, in fact most of the time the user's blood reaches the end of his face before Amaterasu appears.


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## Jackalinthebox (Apr 7, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> *Spoiler*: __


That's easily the slowest activation time we've seen. You're choosing the lowest end showing over all the other more consistent ones...don't be too blatantly biased or anything

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Bookworm (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> He said someone only with a sharingan and kekkei can break his tsukuyomi. Not that only a sharingan heir can defeat him.
> He said it because kakashi thought he can stand upto Itachi's Mangekyou jutsu with his sharingan. Otherwise itachi has no reason to even state it. Why would he give away ways to defeat himself out of context.... SMH ( classic example of favorable misinterpretation )


If you want to deny what was actually said in the viz translation that's fine, I know your a troll anyway.



PradyumnaR said:


> Jiraiya has so many attacks that take lesser time than Amaterasu. And he did attack by using Toad Mouth trap.
> And i said Jiraiya doesn't need to attack before the amaterasu is launched. He can dodge.
> 
> And..let me use your logic for a second ( I'm am momentarily equating myself to you with these...)
> ...



How would Jiraiya dodge Amaterasu?

Funny enough, I was acting like you when kept asking for proof for everything. Not that I have to prove that, Itachi could have easily used Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi while he was talking to Jiraiya, free opportunity to OHKO Jiraiya.

Now I have a question for you


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Kai said:


> .
> 
> Searching for the "Fourth Hokage's legacy", who was with Jiraiya, was a lie. He came to the village to send a message to Danzo and counselors he was still alive.


yet he needlessy wasted time, a tsukuyomi ,an amaterasu and a lot of chakra and life from whatever he had remaining ....
he came to get Naruto and send a message at the same time.



Kai said:


> .Only one who possessed his bloodline possibly defeating him was also a lie.


Only he was referring to his sharingan jutsu and not himself as a ninja.



Kai said:


> Itachi stated Madara stole Izuna's eyes to gain the EMS and that was also a complete lie. Izuna willingly offered his eyes as shown in the flashback.


Itachi thought Tobi was Madara ( a guy who no one knew much about ) and he told Sasuke what he thought was true and thus he made a mistake. Itachi also said you need to kill your friend to awaken the mangekyou... Did he lie ?? No because he wanted Sasuke to get the mangekyou and challenge him. But was it true that you needed to kill your pal.. Absolutely not.
In the jiraiya incident, he is talking about himself, so no margin of error.
Your logic about him lying about madara( who was tobi and he didn't know ) and him speaking about himself is a very weak one.
Itachi also said to sasuke  you need to kill your friend to awaken the mangekyou... Did he lie ?? No because he wanted Sasuke to get the mangekyou and challenge him and kill him. But was it true that you needed to kill your pal.. Absolutely not. He only said what he thought was true.



Kai said:


> So asking why Itachi "only lied about Jiraiya" is a complete misnomer as not only was his character as a double agent built to lie from the beginning, half of his damn lies exist in the same arc as when they encounter J-man and Naruto, an encounter that in of itself was completely irrelevant to Itachi's goals.


Him being a double agent he could have lied about the abilities of other shinobi to akatsuki..yet he didn't. His job as a double agent was to steer akatsuki from the village. Nothing else. To him J-man is nothing of any importance.
And he didn't need to bluff his way out of an encounter.



Kai said:


> .According to FANZ logic, Itachi should have told Kisame he _already_ told him he and J-man would end up killing each other in their first conversation when Kisame asked why they were retreating.


According to itachi fans logic, Itachi didn't have to capture naruto but still went through the pain of clashing with kakashi..running away from gai...using genjutsu on a random woman, luring jiraiya out and almost capturing naruto,....because he didn't want to capture him.. And BTW, he also planned all this ..even to the part here jiraiya would come to save Naruto.  SMH


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> If you want to deny what was actually said in the viz translation that's fine, I know your a troll anyway.


Says the gentleman who is called trolling. How credible.




Trolling said:


> Funny enough, I was acting like you when kept asking for proof for everything. Not that I have to prove that, Itachi could have easily used Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi while he was talking to Jiraiya, free opportunity to OHKO Jiraiya.


Funny enough you are the one to talk about proof as your whole arguement is based off of nothing but fanboyism and the notion that you believe itachi was lying particularly about Jman and not anyone else. Not that you have any proof itachi was lying anyways. I only asked for proof for that..You were the one who went into " can amaterasu hit jiraiya direction. " Which had noting to do with what I asked. Yet I entertained that hypothesis of yours and now you are out of steam asking the same questions over and over again.


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## Bookworm (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Says the gentleman who is called trolling. How credible.


Well since you don't believe me, what was said in the viz translation than?



PradyumnaR said:


> Funny enough you are the one to talk about proof as your whole arguement is based off of nothing but fanboyism and the notion that you believe itachi was lying particularly about Jman and not anyone else. Not that you have any proof itachi was lying anyways. I only asked for proof for that..You were the one who went into " can amaterasu hit jiraiya direction. " Which had noting to do with what I asked. Yet I entertained that hypothesis of yours and now you are out of steam asking the same questions over and over again.


Why does Itachi have to lie when praising Kakashi and Gai, just because he did with Jiraiya? You say I have no proof, but the Viz translation supports my argument that Itachi did lie in one of the 2 contradictory statements. Conveniently you keep dismissing what the Viz translation says. Kisame even questions why someone like Itachi had to run from Jiraiya. And if we take statements at face value like you are doing, than Itachi is perfect and invincible, according to two other people.


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## Zero890 (Apr 7, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> That's easily the slowest activation time we've seen. You're choosing the lowest end showing over all the other more consistent ones...don't be too blatantly biased or anything



Normally Amaterasu takes a few seconds to come out while the blood leaves the user's eye. So yes, it is not inconsistent


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Well since you don't believe me, what was said in the viz translation than?


Even in the Viz translation..he was reffering to Tsukuyomi. Or are you talking about Viz trans magically having proof of the Itachi Bluff ??




Trolling said:


> Why does Itachi have to lie when praising Kakashi and Gai, just because he did with Jiraiya? You say I have no proof, but the Viz translation supports my argument that Itachi did lie in one of the 2 contradictory statements. Conveniently you keep dismissing what the Viz translation says. Kisame even questions why someone like Itachi had to run from Jiraiya. And if we take statements at face value like you are doing, than Itachi is perfect and invincible, according to two other people.


Why do ou so convinently think he is lying ?? Why does he even have to lie about Jiraiya ?? Why only jiraiya and not anyone else ? Any specific reason ?? Apart from the fantastical " sparing the poor old sannins's life " ???? Do you have any answers or are you going to go back to " can jiraiya dodge Amaterasu ? " 
Show me the proof that Itachi is lying . I have read so many translations and not one...even the official anime which is riddled with fillers has not even one scene in all of those wealth of episodes which indicates he was bluffing. Go on..show me.
And you want to take statements at face value ?
Jiraiya >/= Itachi and Kisame ( As said by itachi )


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## Bookworm (Apr 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Even in the Viz translation..he was reffering to Tsukuyomi. Or are you talking about Viz trans magically having proof of the Itachi Bluff ??


What Itachi said implies that he couldn't be stopped by non sharingan user, because of Tsukuyomi. Itachi latter on said he thought he was unstoppable, at another time. Kakashi at one time implied that Tsukuyomi can't be broken by non sharingan users, as well. And Kisame asked why someone like Itachi had to escape Jiraiya. That's 4 statements vs your 1. I have more evidence to support my argument.


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## Mar55 (Apr 7, 2018)

I feel like this isn't even about the topic at hand anymore, therefore I don't care.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Trolling said:


> What Itachi said implies that he couldn't be stopped by non sharingan user, because of Tsukuyomi. Itachi latter on said he thought he was unstoppable. Kakashi at one time implied that Tsukuyomi can't be broken by non sharingan users, as well. And Kisame asked why someone like Itachi had to escape Jiraiya. That's 4 statements vs your 1. I have more evidence to support my argument.


What have you proven by this ? That itachi said sharingan user with kekkei can break the tsukuyomi ? That is exactly what I was saying. Thanks for proving me right. All of those points hinge on the fact that the enemey should be caught in the tsukuyomi. Jiraiya can avoid being caoght. He already knows how sharingan users cast genjutsu. Kakshi foolishly thought his eye can counter it but he learned it the hard way. Look what happened when itachi tried it on kakashi the second time. He was stopped . All ypur points prove what I said... Itachi was reffering to breaking out of Tsukuyomi and not himself as a ninja. 
Ask Might guy if he cared about sharingan genjutsu and all when he was ready to fight itachi. You don't need to break it if you can avoid being caught. What did Itachi do when he heard Guy could anticipate someone by looking at their feet ?? 

And Im still waiting for your proof of the Itachi Bluff.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Anyways... @Mar55 , you are right. This was Nagato vs itachi..
Nagato still wins.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Gohara (Apr 7, 2018)

I'm not suggesting everything that Itachi is and isn't lying about.  My point is simply that Itachi has a reason to lie and Kisame doesn't.  Itachi needs an excuse and Kisame doesn't.  And when you combine all that with Itachi's far superior portrayal to another Legendary Sannin it makes the most sense in my opinion.

@ zero.

But spies do that a lot, almost do things to act convincingly but not do them because they're on their team.

@PradyumnaR 

Orochimaru is on their team when they confront and it makes sense that Itachi wouldn't do something so suspicious as defending Konoha openly.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Kai (Apr 7, 2018)

Gohara said:


> My point is simply that Itachi has a reason to lie and Kisame doesn't.  Itachi needs an excuse and Kisame doesn't.


This is precisely why our views as readers are best aligned with Kisame's in scenes depicting Itachi, especially the earlier ones.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Jackalinthebox (Apr 7, 2018)

Good ole Itachi still deceiving the readers with his lies, years after his death

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Gohara (Apr 7, 2018)

However his character wouldn't have proof of that so it would still look suspicious


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## koton123 (Apr 7, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> Itachi is overpowered by Pain, but does someone want to try to explain how Nagato's real body isn't insta'd by Tsukuyomi?
> 
> Or any level of genjutsu gg, for that matter?


Rinnegan is completely Immune to visual genjutsu, he only got caught by Jirayas genjutsu because it was a sound genjutsu not to mention a very high rank secretive genjutsu.


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## Ultrafragor (Apr 7, 2018)

koton123 said:


> Rinnegan is completely Immune to visual genjutsu, he only got caught by Jirayas genjutsu because it was a sound genjutsu not to mention a very high rank secretive genjutsu.



Why would you think that?

Sharingan isn't even immune to genjutsu


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## Mar55 (Apr 7, 2018)

Gohara said:


> However his character wouldn't have proof of that so it would still look suspicious


Aside from the fact that Kakuzu has a reputation for killing his teammates, without any suspicions being brought upon him.

Obito already knew his goals, he has nothing to hide .

Reactions: Like 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 7, 2018)

Mar55 said:


> Itachi is a horrible spy and a horrible supposedly good guy, he's bad at everything minus being a dutiful Akatsuki member. Weird, that.


Moreover, his biggest plan of making Sasuke follow his will to protect the village failed. Naruto had to fix it for him.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mar55 (Apr 8, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Moreover, his biggest plan of making Sasuke follow his will to protect the village failed. Naruto had to fix it for him.


Boi, don't even get me started. I'll light Itachi's ass up for the fuckery he considered "taking care of Sasuke," and I ain't talking Amaterasu either.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sapherosth (Apr 8, 2018)

Mar55 said:


> Aside from the fact that Kakuzu has a reputation for killing his teammates, without any suspicions being brought upon him.
> 
> *Obito already knew his goals, he has nothing to hide .*




I guess you missed the point where Obito stated that Itachi died without knowing just how much Obito knew about him ?


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## Mar55 (Apr 8, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> I guess you missed the point where Obito stated that Itachi died without knowing just how much Obito knew about him ?


No, I didn't.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Apr 8, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Was he thinking of really fighting Kakashi when they encountered ? Why not run from there too. Reason, he knows he can wreck Kakashi.
> Itachi has Naruto in his grasp, the objective of his mission and still didn't want to fight?
> Bish please.


Kakashi : "I see....so the time flow made me think it was 3 days when it was only a instant......why didn't he just kill me...?"

^^^You think Itachi is serious now?

Also.........

Tobi : "Itachi came to the Konoha Village to warn the elders that he was alive and well and if, Sasuke was safe or not, to check"


^^You think Itachi was serious with Jiraiya?

And capturing Naruto?

Reactions: Like 3


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 8, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Kakashi : "I see....so the time flow made me think it was 3 days when it was only a instant......why didn't he just kill me...?"
> 
> ^^^You think Itachi is serious now


Then why ask Kisame to kill them off later. 
If he wasn't serious, why usebone of his best and taxing jutsus. 



Sage light said:


> Tobi : "Itachi came to the Konoha Village to warn the elders that he was alive and well and if, Sasuke was safe or not, to check"


Then why even go to the pain of genjutsu a random woman and lure jiraiya away if he wasn't serious? Why ask Naruto to come along with him? Why be OK with Kisame slicing off narutos legs? 



Sage light said:


> ^^You think Itachi was serious with Jiraiya?
> 
> And capturing Naruto?


As i said before.. If he is not serious, Why set a trap for jiraiya, go to Naruto,accidentally  get himself in a situation where he had to use Tsukuyomi and ama and gtfo without a fight? 
You have no proof he wasn't serious with jiraiya.


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 8, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Itachi was teaching Naruto how to survive in tense situations.


Its amazing to me how you can completely miss a simple point

It doesnt matter what itachi was telling KCM naruto and it doesnt matter that Itachi knew that long range techniques would be useful against a giant floating thing in the sky...A 3rd grader could tell you that in order to hit something far away, you need to have range...

What DOES matter is that Itachi states Yasaka is his STRONGEST ranged attack...And we know its FAR inferior to a TBB...That CT tanked...

Therefore...It os 100% impossible for itachi to break CT on his own

He is simply outgunned and blatantly not powerful enough on his own


Sage light said:


> Tsunade resisted through chakra in feet


No

They ATTEMPTED to resist it that way

They didnt succeed 


Sage light said:


> Itachi dodged ST in canon


A unidirectional one

It can be used as a shockwave that hits everything


Sage light said:


> It never'll be long.Not when The G.O.A.T is on scene


Yeah

Im now aware youre an adorable little troll

This is pathetic man

No one is taking anything that tumbles out of your face seriously now


Sage light said:


> Never gets caught.


Stronger and faster people than he is did 

This is also not an argument

But idk what i expected from a 13 year old troll with a keyboard


Sage light said:


> He creamed a bigger, stronger, powerful version of Nagato.His speed is no joke.


He "creamed" nagato 

Sit down bud

You reach any higher youre gonna pull a muscle 


Sage light said:


> Itachi physical strength is no joke.He pushed back Naruto so easily it's not funny.This is a Itachi weaker than alive form.He could beat down the summons.


Itachi never at any point "pushed back" naruto

KCM naruto and Bee were trying to talk to him while Itachi was trying to KILL THEM...Not trying to actually fight him...Aznd fun fact...ITACHI is the one who got pushed back

And he got pushed back by BASE Killer Bee

So cute try


Sage light said:


> Doesn't need to.


Itachi doesnt need to beat Pains summons 

Huh

Amazing

What do they just pack up and leave once they realize they are fighting "the GOAT" 


Sage light said:


> Bansho Tenin is unidirectional, can be dodged.Amaterasu is a living flame.Preta only absorbs chakra.


D...Did you just suggest Itachi can dodge magnetism?

That he wont even notice until its ALREADY TAKEN EFFECT?

And did you further claim that Amaterasu cant be absorbed by the rinnegan?




Sage light said:


> Not revival if Jigokudo gets oneshotted.


With what 

How is itachi tagging the path that Pain keeps the most protected at all times 

How would he KNOW to focus on this path in the first place 


Sage light said:


> Deathbed Itachi Amaterasu covered the entire Uchiha Radius.


Yes and it doesnt matter how much chakra he shits out...Deva and Preta path can deal with any amount of amaterasu Itachi uses...


Sage light said:


> Itachi controls out of sensory division


What the fuck does this even mean


Sage light said:


> Itachi dojutsu can see everything in the universe.He takes it in superiority.


May i just say you are doing an AMAZING job of solidifying yourself as a troll not to be taken seriously 

Itachi sees everything in the universe?

His eyes are superior to the FUCKING RINNEGAN which are literally the EYES OF GOD and are stated to be an UPGRADE to Sharingans evolution?

Stop it 


Sage light said:


> Itachi was fighting his loved one.


Itachi himself states the technique can be broken....He also stated Kakashi could resist its effects...

Doesnt matter who itachi was fighting


Sage light said:


> Yasaka is Imperial Regalia Weapon.Combined with Totsuka Yata Deities.


In actual mythology sure

Not in this manga

In this manga the Yasaka are a garbage tier technique that every MS user has access to...They are commonplace and are legit juts Susanoo shuriken...


Sage light said:


> Been a while since I have heard it not soloing.


This is just getting sad now

Yasaka is soloing CT...

Stop


Sage light said:


> Both are the same in my eyes, one is a bit stronger.


No....nagatos is stated and shown to be much stronger than Pains


Sage light said:


> So what? CT ain't doing sh!t anyways.




CT 1 shots

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 8, 2018)

Mar55 said:


> Seems the Itachi brigade is returning to full force, what a time we have ahead of us.


Id rather that than the months upon months of sannin BS we have had

Not that whats being said about Itachi is more believable dont get me wrong...Its just that the sannin shit is getting old now

Itachi wank once again running rampant would be a change of scenery if nothing else

Do it @Sapherosth @Trolling @Sage light 

Bring "the GOAT" back full force

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 8, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> That's easily the slowest activation time we've seen. You're choosing the lowest end showing over all the other more consistent ones...don't be too blatantly biased or anything


Thats what Sannin fans do...

Low ends only...For anyone who isnt a sannin anyway

Sannin get scaled to high ends of people ABOVE THEM

Like Jman replicating Nagatos or JJ obitos sensory feats for instance

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## Mar55 (Apr 8, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Id rather that than the months upon months of sannin BS we have had
> 
> Not that whats being said about Itachi is more believable dont get me wrong...Its just that the sannin shit is getting old now
> 
> ...


Don't do this, Itachi's black fire will burn this forum to the ground.

I've seen it many a time, it's a black hell as dark as the hearts of his wankers.


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## koton123 (Apr 8, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> Why would you think that?
> 
> Sharingan isn't even immune to genjutsu


Nobody with the rinnegan has been caught under visual genjutsu, sasuke rinnegan was completely immune to the the infinite tsukuyomi.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 8, 2018)

koton123 said:


> Nobody with the rinnegan has been caught under visual genjutsu, sasuke rinnegan was completely immune to the the infinite tsukuyomi.










Obito had the Rinnegan AND the Sharingan. Yet he chose the Sharingan to defend against genjutsu. This is proof enough.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 8, 2018)

Mar55 said:


> Don't do this, Itachi's black fire will burn this forum to the ground.
> 
> I've seen it many a time, it's a black hell as dark as the hearts of his wankers.


But its a change of pace nonetheless

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Serene Grace (Apr 8, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Nagatos or JJ obitos sensory feats for instance


And yet your logic is Nagato>SM Naruto in sensing

Though really lets not act like Uchiha wankers don't make outlandish claims


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## Zero890 (Apr 8, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Thats what Sannin fans do...
> 
> Low ends only...For anyone who isnt a sannin anyway
> 
> ...



You say that Nagato is immune to Genjutsus and can react to V3 Ay ... abilities that he does not have. 

But Jiraiya with Sensing (good counter of Amaterasu) is stupid


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## Bookworm (Apr 8, 2018)

I already said how I think Itachi's wins, against Nagato. Tsukuyomi GG.


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## Gohara (Apr 8, 2018)

@ mars.

I'm more so referring to the suspicions of defending Konoha.


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## Jackalinthebox (Apr 8, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Thats what Sannin fans do...
> 
> Low ends only...For anyone who isnt a sannin anyway
> 
> ...


Only a matter of time before Sannin wankers start claiming Jiraiya can gather all the available NE on the planet like RSM Nardo and use it to create a Senpo Cho Odama Rasengan on the level of Indra's Arrow


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 8, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> You say that Nagato is immune to Genjutsus


He has the rinnegan and has genjutsu blocks and has sensroy ability and has knowledge on it

Never have i ever claimed he was immune to it, but hes more than equipped to AVOID it


Zero890 said:


> and can react to V3 Ay


Theres no such thing as V3 A 

And hes reacted to Killer Bees V2 Lariat, which would be near V2 A in speed (tho i freely admit its slower) and also reacted to Amaterasu with sensing

The latter of which is also near A's speed 

These are things you ignore then bring up this argument out of context to try and make me look bad

And every time you flop


Zero890 said:


> But Jiraiya with Sensing (good counter of Amaterasu) is stupid


SM Kabutos sensing, which has better sensory feats than Jmans, didnt detect Amaterasu preemptively on panel

Jman, who is the worst practiced sage in the manga, with no sensory feats or capabilities to speak of, isnt outperforming that

Hes just not

And its ridiculous to claim he can


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## Serene Grace (Apr 8, 2018)

The salt in this thread bruh


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 8, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> And yet your logic is Nagato>SM Naruto in sensing


My logic is Nagato has better feats in a single aspect of sensing 

Because he does 

He also has comparable sensing range and penetrative power to SM or KCM naruto...As he sensed Kbuto from entire countries away through a barrier meant to expressively stop sensing

But go ahead

Dodge the point that Naruto, Kabuto, or Jman have never sensed buildup on panel

Go ahead


Serene Grace said:


> Though really lets not act like Uchiha wankers don't make outlandish claims


Nowhere near as bad as SM Jman>Pain>KN6>SM Naruto>SM Jman 

Somehow that logic train makes sense to you people

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Zero890 (Apr 8, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> He has the rinnegan and has genjutsu blocks and has sensroy ability and has knowledge on it
> 
> Never have i ever claimed he was immune to it, but hes more than equipped to AVOID it



The Rinnegan is not immune to Genjutsus and he does not have any "Genjutsu blocks" 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Theres no such thing as V3 A
> 
> And hes reacted to Killer Bees V2 Lariat, which would be near V2 A in speed (tho i freely admit its slower) and also reacted to Amaterasu with sensing
> 
> ...



V3 = Onoki + A4

Lol V2 Bee close to being as fast as V2 A4  

I thought Troyse was the only one who thought that.

Nagato receives Amaterasu directly, he never reacted 

But he can react to A4 + Onoki 




WorldsStrongest said:


> SM Kabutos sensing, which has better sensory feats than Jmans, didnt detect Amaterasu preemptively on panel
> 
> Jman, who is the worst practiced sage in the manga, with no sensory feats or capabilities to speak of, isnt outperforming that
> 
> ...



The worst sage is Minato sorry.

Amaterasu was not even addressed to Kabuto, he had no need to do anything. And it has been seen twice that Sensing allows you to predict Amaterasu before it appears. Jiraiya has Sensing but for you the Nagato's reactions are more canon than a skill that the DB gives to Jiraiya.


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## Serene Grace (Apr 8, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> The worst sage is Minato sorry


I wouldn't bother arguing this with him as well


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Apr 8, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> The Rinnegan is not immune to Genjutsu


I didnt say it was 


WorldsStrongest said:


> Never have i ever claimed he was immune to it, but hes more than equipped to AVOID it





Zero890 said:


> he does not have any "Genjutsu blocks"





Braiyan said:


> People really need to stop playing the "Pain has no defense against genjutsu because Frog Song" card (especially when Itachi is just as vulnerable to Frog Song). Even ignoring the fact that Nagato possesses the evolved version of eyes built for fighting genjutsu, there's also .
> 
> That's Inoichi being amazed at the genjutsu blocks and traps Nagato set up in the mind of one of his subordinates, even admitting they would be . This is the same Inoichi who was brought in to extract info from Nagato's subordinate when Ibiki couldn't, Ibiki being the head of Konoha's Torture Force and a man hyped for his interrogation skills. If Nagato can develop genjutsu traps that give trouble to guys whose skills and equipment were geared towards info extraction, then he is no noob at genjutsu. He should get the benefit of the doubt to perform at least as well as _*Sakura *_did against Itachi's genjutsus.
> 
> And then there's the fact that Jiraiya spent at least as long training Nagato as he did Naruto, who knows how to defend against genjutsu. Except in Nagato's case, he does not have horrendous chakra control and was even hyped for quickly mastering everything Jiraiya taught him. It's even more likely in Nagato's case that defending against genjutsu would be one of those lessons, considering Jiraiya wanted to make sure the Ame Orphans would be able to survive in a war torn country by themselves.





Zero890 said:


> V3 = Onoki + A4


Oh so its a fanfic term

Whatever

Most people say Backpack A 

Either way theres no reason to assume that he cant at least mentally react and activate ST...Which is all he needs to do and their combo is nulled


Zero890 said:


> Lol V2 Bee close to being as fast as V2 A4


They are close in speed...

A is faster, as i stated myself





WorldsStrongest said:


> Bees V2 Lariat, which would be near V2 A in speed (tho i freely admit its slower)



But the gap isnt massive



Zero890 said:


> I thought Troyse was the only one who thought that.


Dont compare me to troys bullshit


Actually try fucking reading what i type before you put words in my mouth


Zero890 said:


> Nagato receives Amaterasu directly, he never reacted


Cool




Zero890 said:


> The worst sage is Minato sorry.


The worst sage is Jman...He cant enter the Mode reliably without aid...As fucking stated...He has no sensory feats...And he cant properly balance the energy...

You Jman wankers can ignore these facts and circle jerk your headcanon all you fucking want

Doesnt change the fact youre all wrong and blatantly ignoring canon



Serene Grace said:


> I wouldn't bother arguing this with him as well


Its not me youre arguing with its kishi 

3 strikes for Jman and one strike for minato

Pretty clear whos is the worst


Zero890 said:


> Amaterasu was not even addressed to Kabuto, he had no need to do anything


Wasnt aimed at Nagato either and he sensed it 

This just proves my point even more

Piss poor argument


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 8, 2018)

Nagato stomps as does Pain. 

Tsukuyomi will fail against Nagato because he exceeds the criteria needed to resist Tsukuyomi.

Sasuke was able to do it with Uchiha eyes, just the Sharingan. 

Nagato has a Senju body and the highest level of Uchiha eyes which became Rikudou eyes. He was described as a Rikudou like Madara and Hagoromo.


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## Bookworm (Apr 8, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Nagato stomps as does Pain.
> 
> Tsukuyomi will fail against Nagato because he exceeds the criteria needed to resist Tsukuyomi.
> 
> ...



Nagato isn't a Senju and Uchiha DNA is needed not Senju.


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## Serene Grace (Apr 8, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> This is gonna be rich coming from a guy who cant interpret spoonfed feats and statements and instead routinely wanks his fav


What does wanking my fav have to do with this? You sound mad, though i'd be mad as well if I mad a weakass rebuttal like this



WorldsStrongest said:


> And ive also educated your ass on this whole Nagato thing like 6 times
> 
> And every fucking time you act like we never had this debate


This is how I feel but the other way around, the fuck outta here about educating shit



WorldsStrongest said:


> The only difference is this logic of yours is asinine as RSM Naruto is a user of the exact method of a sensory ability that DOES detect Amaterasu


Bruh you didn't just contradict yourself now. You just fucking said that Naruto who uses the same method of sensing like Nagato to sense chakra can't sense Amaterasu
. Infact Naruto has superior method being SM sensing 
Nope, that's your retarded logic. RSM Naruto has never shown to do it on panel, therefore, he can't



WorldsStrongest said:


> He has better feats at picking up buildup


And what is he doing when he's picking up the build up? Sensing chakra..right? You have to be trolling me



WorldsStrongest said:


> And has comparable feats of range and ignoring barriers


Yes, of which he was directly connected to the guy he was sensing. What proof is there that he would have sensed anything had he not been connected?



WorldsStrongest said:


> Sensing build up is *not the same thing* as *normal sensing*


 this is one of stupidest things I've seen on these forums.


He's sensing the movement of chakra within the MS. The fuck is this?



WorldsStrongest said:


> This is literally JUST scale
> 
> Which nagato can compete with


It's not just scale

> Naruto deciphered the chakra signatures of his entire clan, ultimately sensing everyone's chakra within the village
> Naruto 

All better feats than Nagato has ever shown or could hope to show, and the yall happened without Nagato being connected to Kabuto.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Nagato being connected to Kabuto doesnt mean nearly as much as you think it does


Really? Because that was what Itachi outright said helped them track Kabuto, something you ignore



WorldsStrongest said:


> He has better feats at picking up buildup


Nagato sensed it. FACT. 

Naruto is better sensor than Nagato feats. FACT. 

The only argument that you have for Nagato being anywhere near the level of SM Naruto in feats is a feat where the dude was directly connected to him via ET, you also have no proof he would have sensed anything without being connected. FACT. 

You for some reason bring Muu up when he's a horseshit sensor in comparison to SM Naruto by feats, portrayal, common sense. Also don't even have proof whether he ever tried to conciously reverse track Kabuto. FACT. 

You have nothing son, sit the fuck down.



WorldsStrongest said:


> So you just being dumb on purpose or have you not read the manga?


You shouldn't be calling him dumb when you're comparing to Nagato knowing Amaterasu is coming before its release thanks to sensing, not actually physically or even mentally reacting to it. By your logic Base bee has V2 levels of reactions as well since he reacted to the buildup physically by throwing his sword 

Amaterasu's build up speed=/= Amaterasu's actual speed.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Mu for instance, you know that feat of narutos where he detects the absences of a SINGLE CHAKRA hes INTIMATELY familiar with? Well,


Still inferior to Naruto visualizing the entire SA with sensing alone, or deciphering the chakra signatures of his entire village.

Anyways weak-ass rebuttal as a whole. You're out of your mind if you think you can bring smoke to me with subpar debating like this


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## Serene Grace (Apr 8, 2018)

@WorldsStrongest thanks for the neg bro


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 8, 2018)

This post is pathetic

All of it is just Grace's typical semantics and mental gymnastic horseshit coupled with false equivalences id expect from Troy

Sad shit

Im done here with you man

Youre not listening to reason or canon(and also think the same of me which is ironic) so i suggest we just stop wasting each others time

Its also getting a tad off topic which ill take as probably my fault but whatever

Quote me again, dislike me, neg me

Whatever i dont care

You wont get another response from me on this topic

Way too much wasted effort on this shit already


Serene Grace said:


> What does wanking my fav have to do with this?


Gee i wonder


Serene Grace said:


> This is how I feel but the other way around, the fuck outta here about educating shit


Fine

Dont mind me

Stay wrong for all i care

Dont educate yoursle

Entirely your decision 


Serene Grace said:


> Bruh you didn't just contradict yourself now. You just fucking said that Naruto who uses the same method of sensing like Nagato


No i didnt youre just failing at reading English again 

I said Naruto has the same technique as OBITO due to both being RSM users...And RSM has been used to sense amaterasu ON PANEL

I didnt say Naruto has the same technique as Nagato

Because he doesnt 

And no

Thats not me saying Nagato is a better sensor or a sensor on par with RSM users...Before your flawed logic makes you jump at this and put words in my mouth

Thats me saying Nagato simply has a unique sensory technique

A technique that just so happens to be more precise than toad SM users 


Serene Grace said:


> RSM Naruto has never shown to do it on panel therefore he can't


Obito has done so using RSM

Naruto is an RSM user on par with if not greater than Obito

The feats are transferable

Stupid attempt at a strawman yet agin


Serene Grace said:


> And what is doing when he's picking up the build up? Sensing chakra..right?


In a precise manner

Its not the same thing as preemptively responding to someone building up chakra withing a specific fucking body part at a moments notice

As i said

But this is just another of your amazing false equivelences

Which i guess are gonna become your new thing based off of this thread


Serene Grace said:


> Yes, of which he was directly connected to the guy he was sensing


Which i detailed why is nowher near as monumental as you think it is 


Because other legendary sensors still failed to find kabuto but nagato succeeded


Serene Grace said:


> this is one of stupidest things I've seen on these forums.


This is how i feel every time i see you post anything related to Jman 

Your suspension of disbelief regarding the man is hysterical

As is the way you blatantly ignore canon information

Like youre doing right here and laughing while you do it


Serene Grace said:


> He's sensing the movement of chakra within the MS. The fuck is this?


Which requires more precision than simply just "hurr sensing hurr"

But you went and ignored all of that again

So stellar work


Serene Grace said:


> It's not just scale


It IS just scale

And the factors of it that ARENT scale have been matched AND EXCEEDED by sensors PROVEN to be INFERIOR to NAGATO

Pull your head out of your ass and youd see that


Serene Grace said:


> > Naruto deciphered the chakra signatures of his entire clan, ultimately sensing everyone's chakra within the village


Naruto never in his entire fucking life sensed the Uzumaki clan 

What the fuck are you on?

And again...This is JUST scale

Which has been addressed already

But sure man

Keep pissing in the wind

Only makes you look that much worse


Serene Grace said:


> Really? Because that was what Itachi outright said helped them track Kabuto


I never said it didnt fucking help

i said its not as big of a factor as you make it out to be

Again, shit strawman

Thats like 3 now

Proud


Serene Grace said:


> Nagato sensed it. FACT.


Im aware

I brought it up


Serene Grace said:


> Naruto is better sensor than Nagato by feats. FACT.


Not in all areas he isnt

And even if i was to concede on Naruto being better you have no fucking leg to stand on with your Jman wank regardless 


Serene Grace said:


> The only argument that you have for Nagato being anywhere near the level of SM Naruto in feats is a feat


That naruto doesnt have of sensing jutsu buildup

And then teh fact that Nagato outperformed the entire SA and the entire Edo army and Nrutos passive sensing thats country wide by detecting Kabutos chakra when everyone else failed

Meaning they are at least peer to one another, with Nagato having an edge in one category due to better feats

This isnt fucking rocket science



Serene Grace said:


> You for some reason bring Muu up when he's a horseshit sensor in comparison to SM Naruto by feats, portrayal, common sense. FACT.


Except by feats hes better than naruto at differentiating chakra signatures as hes distinguished thousands of shinobi apart by village despite never laying eyes on ANY Of them and also detects a fucking descendant of a guy standing next to him who he has ALSO never met and remarks on that

Naruto felt the absence of Kakashis chakra

Whats more impressive 

Go ahead

Be biased again


Serene Grace said:


> You have nothing son, sit the fuck down.


You sit your fucking ass down kid

You act like youve made a point which is fucking hilarious considering you cant stay away from false equivelence to save your life


Serene Grace said:


> Still inferior to Naruto visualizing the entire SA with sensing alone, or deciphering the chakra signatures of his entire village.


Mus feats of distinguishing the entire SA apart by nation of origin andsensing relatives is peer to that at the very least

Youd see that if you werent hilariously biased


Serene Grace said:


> @WorldsStrongest thanks for the neg bro


Anytime

Woulda just disliked you but im rating capped


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## Zero890 (Apr 8, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I didnt say it was



You say "he has Rinnegan" as if that countered the Genjutsu



WorldsStrongest said:


> Oh so its a fanfic term
> 
> Whatever
> 
> ...



There is no reason either to suppose that he can even react mentally. You debated with me because Jiraiya did not have reaction feats but you are giving Nagato reactions without feats. Hell this is even worse because you say that he can react to A4 + Onoki. Double standard.

Shinra Tensei also does not help him at all, A4 simply approaching Nagato again before 5 seconds pass.



WorldsStrongest said:


> They are close in speed...
> 
> A is faster, as i stated myself



This is based on nothing, A4's Shunshin is much faster than V2 Bee... Kisame could react to 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Cool



He didn't


*Spoiler*: __ 










WorldsStrongest said:


> The worst sage is Jman...He cant enter the Mode reliably without aid...As fucking stated...He has no sensory feats...And he cant properly balance the energy...
> 
> You Jman wankers can ignore these facts and circle jerk your headcanon all you fucking want
> 
> Doesnt change the fact youre all wrong and blatantly ignoring canon



 

Minato says: "I am very bad with Sage mode" 
Fukasaku: "Jiraiya was a true sage"

Damn Fukasaku even says "maybe" Naruto could overcome Jiraiya and Naruto was a pefect sage.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Wasnt aimed at Nagato either and he sensed it
> 
> This just proves my point even more
> 
> Piss poor argument



Then according to you, Nagato is a better sensor than a perfect Sage like KabutoKappa


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 8, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> You say "he has Rinnegan" as if that countered the Genjutsu


I then stated that due to every other advantage he has, he avoids it

I never argued that hed magically lolnope it


Zero890 said:


> There is no reason either to suppose that he can even react mentally. You debated with me because Jiraiya did not have reaction feats but you are giving Nagato reactions without feats


Sure there is

His sensory feats combined with his base reactions mean he can very likely pull at least a mental reaction which is far faster than physical reactions 

Jman hasnt reacted to anything even REMOTEL:Y as fast as V2 Bee or Amaterasu so this...


Zero890 said:


> Double standard.


Is bullshit 

Suggesting Nagato can AT LEAST mentally react to someone who is PEER to the fastest shit hes reacted to, and saying Jman CANT react to something thats FASTER than a SLOWER GUY whos ALSO FASTER than ANYTHING Jman has EVER reacted to isnt a double standard

Try again


Zero890 said:


> Shinra Tensei also does not help him at all, A4 simply approaching Nagato again before 5 seconds pass.


The only issue with that is how about no?

Because Nagatos STs would be more powerful than Pains who could toss teh Gma trio miles away and break every bone in their bodies

Poor old ohnoki isnt taking that hit well at all

Also, in this scenario, A is LIGHTENED is he not? Meaning hes thrown much further away than he normally would be and is more susceptible to ST


Zero890 said:


> This is based on nothing, A4's Shunshin is much faster than V2 Bee


I never said otherwise

You are literally making a big dealing out of fucking semantics

Ive stated myself i view A as faster as he visibly is by feats and hype, i just said that Bees speed isnt bad by comparison either

Still wholeheartedly stating i believe A>Bee

But go ahead

Lets keep up with the semantics bullshit


Zero890 said:


> He didn't


Oh you mean when He had control over his body again while Kabuto was having a stroke?

Yeah thats totally applicable to a Nagato being forced to fight his friends right?

Smh


Zero890 said:


> Minato says: "I am very bad with Sage mode"
> Fukasaku: "Jiraiya was a true sage"
> 
> Damn Fukasaku even says "maybe" Naruto could overcome Jiraiya and Naruto was a pefect sage.


Minatos later feats and accomplishments shit on all of this

Pa also states that Jman cant use SM unaided, Jman has no feats of using any of SMs special abilities, Jman cant properly balance the energy within himself wheres Minato CAN

But yeah lets ignore that because reasons


Zero890 said:


> Then according to you, Nagato is a better sensor than a perfect Sage like KabutoKappa


No

According to you sannin wankers who are incapable of seeing the big picture and love false equivalences tho?

I can see how youd have that flawed view of my interpretation


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 8, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Nagato isn't a Senju and Uchiha DNA is needed not Senju.



He's Senju lineage was why he was chosen to have Madara's eyes. 

By your logic, all Senju would have lost to the Uchiha during the Senju v Uchiha days because they lacked the Uchiha genes to counter Tsukuyomi.

Uchiha DNA is half of Rikudou DNA... Senju is the other half. Nagato has both halves. 

Now, unless you're going to tell me Itachi can beat the first Rikudou, Hagoromo, with Tsukuyomi then this is an open and shut case.


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## Bookworm (Apr 8, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He's Senju lineage was why he was chosen to have Madara's eyes.
> 
> By your logic, all Senju would have lost to the Uchiha during the Senju v Uchiha days because they lacked the Uchiha genes to counter Tsukuyomi.
> 
> ...



He's not a Senju though and he wasn't said to have Senju blood. If Nagato has both Senju and Uchiha blood Madara wouldn't of had to transfer his own Rinnegan to Nagato, Nagato would have been able to awaken it on his own. Also Nagato wasn't able to use the Rinnegan inherited sharingan abilities from Madara. 

The only way that's true is if there was other Uchiha who had Tsukuyomi and we don't know that to be the case. Even if there was, there nothing suggesting there was a lot, so Senju wouldn't be destroyed. 

How so?


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## Jackalinthebox (Apr 8, 2018)

Even if SM Jiraiya can sense the chakra build up of Amaterasu...the hell's he gonna do about it? He obviously isn't dodging it

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Zero890 (Apr 8, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Sure there is
> 
> His sensory feats combined with his base reactions mean he can very likely pull at least a mental reaction which is far faster than physical reactions
> 
> Jman hasnt reacted to anything even REMOTEL:Y as fast as V2 Bee or Amaterasu so this...



He has no feats, V2 Bee is not even close to V2 A4, much less V2 A4 + Onoki.

Jman has not reacted to anything, neither Nagato in fact Jiraiya is also >>>> Nagato in speed and you say that Jiraiya has no chance to react but Nagato does 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Is bullshit
> 
> Suggesting Nagato can AT LEAST mentally react to someone who is PEER to the fastest shit hes reacted to, and saying Jman CANT react to something thats FASTER than a SLOWER GUY whos ALSO FASTER than ANYTHING Jman has EVER reacted to isnt a double standard
> 
> Try again



Except that V2 Bee is not close to being as fast as A4...

Double standard.



WorldsStrongest said:


> The only issue with that is how about no?
> 
> Because Nagatos STs would be more powerful than Pains who could toss teh Gma trio miles away and break every bone in their bodies
> 
> ...



A4+Onoki blitzed Nagato will not even have time to use ST.

Show me some feat of Nagato reacting to someone near the speed of A4 + Onoki ... Yes, there is no proof and that's what you complained about when we discussed Jiraiya. 



WorldsStrongest said:


> I never said otherwise
> 
> You are literally making a big dealing out of fucking semantics
> 
> ...



A4 + Onoki> V2 A4 >> V2 Bee Nagato can not react 




WorldsStrongest said:


> Oh you mean when He had control over his body again while Kabuto was having a stroke?
> 
> Yeah thats totally applicable to a Nagato being forced to fight his friends right?
> 
> Smh



The fact is that he did not react, he does not have FEATS so he can not react 

Do not blame me, I'm just applying your logic.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Minatos later feats and accomplishments shit on all of this
> 
> Pa also states that Jman cant use SM unaided, Jman has no feats of using any of SMs special abilities, Jman cant properly



I will follow the advice of @Serene Grace 



WorldsStrongest said:


> No
> 
> According to you sannin wankers who are incapable of seeing the big picture and love false equivalences tho?
> 
> I can see how youd have that flawed view of my interpretation



Sensing>Amaterasu.


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## Zero890 (Apr 8, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Even if SM Jiraiya can sense the chakra build up of Amaterasu...the hell's he gonna do about it? He obviously isn't dodging it



Jiraiya+Sensing>Hebi Sasuke>Amaterasu

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Ashi (Apr 8, 2018)

A unbalanced thread that got derailed to such an extent would’ve already been locked not too long ago


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## Serene Grace (Apr 8, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Even if SM Jiraiya can sense the chakra build up of Amaterasu...the hell's he gonna do about it? He obviously isn't dodging it


A simple dust cloud or multiple clones blocking the LOS negs that. If Itachi can't see he can't use it or he simply wastes it on clones


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## Bookworm (Apr 8, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> A simple dust cloud or multiple clones blocking the LOS negs that. If Itachi can't see he can't use it or he simply wastes it on clones



Remember when Itachi used Amaterasu on Gokakyu, it engulfed it. That's exactly what would happen to the dust cloud, with Jiraiya in it.

Clones = Tsukuyomi GG.


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## Serene Grace (Apr 8, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Remember when Itachi used Amaterasu on Gokakyu, it engulfed it. That's exactly what would happen to the dust cloud, with Jiraiya in it.
> 
> Clones = Tsukuyomi GG.


LOL, not sure if "trolling"

the dust cloud clogs Itachi's eyes, therefore, he can not use amaterasu  

So Itachi would use Tsukuyomi in response to Jiraiya summoning clones to guard against amaterasu? This the type of arguments Itachi's fanbase has


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## Jackalinthebox (Apr 8, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Jiraiya+Sensing>Hebi Sasuke>Amaterasu


Except Itachi had to refrain from killing or maiming Sasuke while he'll be looking to turn Jiraiya into a bonfire 


Serene Grace said:


> A simple dust cloud or multiple clones blocking the LOS negs that. If Itachi can't see he can't use it or he simply wastes it on clones


More like Jiraiya goes up in flames along with his dust cloud & clones

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Bookworm (Apr 8, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> LOL, not sure if "trolling"
> 
> the dust cloud clogs Itachi's eyes, therefore, he can not use amaterasu



You are talking about the dust cloud used against pain right? How close are you expecting them to be?


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## Serene Grace (Apr 8, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> More like Jiraiya goes up in flames along with his dust cloud & clones


Yah because Itachi would be able to use Amaterasu while having his eyesight clogged

How will he go up in flames if his clones are hit with it instead? 



Trolling said:


> You are talking about the dust cloud used against pain right? How close are you expecting them to be?


The dust cloud was . Jiraiya doesn't even need to be close


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## Zero890 (Apr 8, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Except Itachi had to refrain from killing or maiming Sasuke while he'll be looking to turn Jiraiya into a bonfire



Except Itachi tried to hit Sasuke with Amaterasu.


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## Jackalinthebox (Apr 8, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Yah because Itachi would be able to use Amaterasu while having his eyesight clogged
> 
> How will he go up in flames if his clones are hit with it instead?
> 
> ...


Wait, are you talking about Shima's Jutsu that was used vs Pain? I seriously hope not. Laughable to think there's even the slightest chance in hell that Jiraiya would sense the build up, tell Shima to use the Jutsu & then for Shima to pull it off before Jiraiya gets hit with Amaterasu 

By Itachi not closing his eye & instead continuing to make more flames. We've seen bursts of Amaterasu that easily covered dozens of meters. Stop making up fanfic scenarios where characters/abilities are suddenly weaker just because they're up against a character you like 


Zero890 said:


> Except Itachi tried to hit Sasuke with Amaterasu.


That doesn't refute my point at all. Surely you can do better than that


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## Serene Grace (Apr 8, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Wait, are you talking about Shima's Jutsu that was used vs Pain? I seriously hope not. Laughable to think there's even the slightest chance in hell that Jiraiya would sense the build up, tell Shima to use the Jutsu & then for Shima to pull it off before Jiraiya gets hit with Amaterasu


Too bad Jiraiya doesn't need to tell them shit is coming. Both ma or pa can sense chakra, therefore if any of them sense the buildup, primarily Shima she throws the dust cloud off 



Jackalinthebox said:


> We've seen bursts of Amaterasu that easily covered dozens of meters.


Wrong that was an Amaterasu that spread across the tree/leaves etc. For this to happen it would be dependant on the location, and even then isn't something likely for Itachi to do given the strain it puts on him. 



Jackalinthebox said:


> Stop making up fanfic scenarios where characters/abilities are suddenly weaker just because they're up against a character you like


Bro lets get it straight Itachi's stamina is shit. His stamina is subpar as pre-canon hence he tries his best never to use MS unless he really has to

Me coming up with a scenario where he doesn't spam MS..is canon same way I don't come up with scenarios where Jiraiya just spams yomi numa in other matchups


Jackalinthebox said:


> By Itachi not closing his eye & instead continuing to make more flames.


The initial amaterasu would already be wasted on the clones if you mean Itachi would use another Amaterasu, act like that seems unlikely from someone of his intellect. Think about it. Using an MS jutsu whilst already knowing your opponent has a method of countering it


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## LostSelf (Apr 8, 2018)

Gai adds himself to the match and solos Itachi, Nagato, Serene Grace and World Strongest.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## Zero890 (Apr 8, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> That doesn't refute my point at all. Surely you can do better than that



Although he did not want to kill him, it does not mean he did not want to burn him with Amaterasu. Itachi wanted to do it to get Orochimaru out of Sasuke's body.


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## Bookworm (Apr 8, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Yah because Itachi would be able to use Amaterasu while having his eyesight clogged
> 
> How will he go up in flames if his clones are hit with it instead?
> 
> ...



Wouldn't they have to know about Amaterasu to even know to use dust cloud? Besides Itachi can just opt to using Gokakyu, instead of even building up chakra for Amaterasu, if they would just dust cloud for Amaterasu.


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## Serene Grace (Apr 8, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Besides Itachi can just opt to using Gokakyu, instead of even building up chakra for Amaterasu, if they would just dust cloud for Amaterasu.


confused, do you mean he'd use just Gokakyu, or Gokakyu then Amaterasu?

If just Gokakyu.. well, couldn't he outright tank Gokakyu with SM durability? Or just overwhelm him with superior and larger katons such as Senpo: Goemon




Trolling said:


> Wouldn't they have to know about Amaterasu to even know to use dust cloud?



Arguable whether or not Jiraiya knows about Amaterasu tbh, it's likely he research on it but then its likely that he didn't, we know there are resources given the cloud managed to get info on it just whether or not Jiraiya looked into. Though _he does know about Tsukuyomi _which could very be what ma and pa believing is accumulating rather then Amaterasu.


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## Bookworm (Apr 8, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Well, couldn't he outright tank Gokakyu with SM durability? Or just overwhelm him with superior and larger katons such as Senpo: Goemon


I don't know about tanking it, but Goemon is a superior katon jutsu. 



Serene Grace said:


> Arguable whether or not Jiraiya knows about Amaterasu tbh, its likely he research on it but then its likely that he didn't, I'll honestly and graciously admit that. Though _he does know about Tsukuyomi _which could very be what ma and pa believing is accumulating rather then Amaterasu.



Why do you say he knows about Tsukuyomi? They probably wouldn't believe Itachi was building up for Tsukuyomi unless they were looking into his eyes.


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## Serene Grace (Apr 8, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Why do you say he knows about Tsukuyomi?


Because he saw it being used in canon, Itachi also used to incapacitate Kakashi. Very likely Kakashi passed on knowledge to him about the jutsu



Trolling said:


> They probably wouldn't believe Itachi was building up for Tsukuyomi unless they were looking into his eyes.


Well, they're sensing the chakr_a specifically_ from Itachi's *eyes*. Sensing the build-up is, in fact, sensing the movement of charka in the eyes, after all

So they wouldn't necessarily need to be looking to know


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## Bookworm (Apr 8, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Well, they're sensing the chakr_a specifically_ from Itachi's *eyes*. Sensing the build-up is, in fact, sensing the movement of charka in the eyes, after all
> 
> So they wouldn't necessarily need to be looking to know


He still wouldn't have a reason to use the dust cloud, because they ​would be avoiding eye contact anyway, just regular genjutsu could be deadly to Jiraiya, with 2 controllable frogs on his shoulder. I mean even, if they did used dust cloud, what than? 

Itachi doesn't even have to rely solely on MS, he has KB + fast handseals.


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## Jackalinthebox (Apr 8, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Too bad Jiraiya doesn't need to tell them shit is coming. Both ma or pa can sense chakra, therefore if any of them sense the buildup, primarily Shima she throws the dust cloud off


For starters, Nagato has obviously seen and felt Amaterasu being used before. So for your scenario to even be at all viable, Shima would have to already be summoned as well as have full knowledge on Ama. Even then, you're assuming Shima is fast to sense the build up, recognize what it means, clap her hands together and expel enough dust to blind Itachi before the flames start to emerge on Jiraiya. Frankly, I don't think the scenario is even worth being taken seriously


Serene Grace said:


> Wrong that was an Amaterasu that spread across the tree/leaves etc. For this to happen it would be dependant on the location, and even then isn't something likely for Itachi to do given the strain it puts on him.


Nope. Some of those bursts were big enough to cover the tops of a few trees. Obviously big enough to consume both Jiraiya and some clones. Not to mention the Ama bursts vs Cerberus were large enough to engulf Naruto multiple times over. No need to take my word for it though, here's proof

Not likely for him to do? Even though we've already seen him do it in canon? Because somehow that makes sense. Itachi had already used the Mangekyo twice on top of a multitude of other Jutsus before those huge Ama bursts. He ended up covering 200+ meters with flames, he won't need to keep it up for that long this time since he'll be aiming to kill this time around


Serene Grace said:


> Bro lets get it straight Itachi's stamina is shit. His stamina is subpar as pre-canon hence he tries his best never to use MS unless he really has to
> 
> 
> 
> Me coming up with a scenario where he doesn't spam MS..is canon same way I don't come up with scenarios where Jiraiya just spams yomi numa in other matchups


Unless he really has to...yeah, because he really needed to use Tsukuyomi against kid Sasuke, Kakashi & 12 year old Sasuke. He's obviously going to use his best techs when up against a strong kage fighter. He isn't retarded and he's shown that he can use the Mangekyo at least three times on top of a few other Jutsu

Spam MS? The scenario I mentioned had Itachi using Amaterasu once. One use of the Mangekyo = spamming? Kinda sad that you have to come up with excuses where Jiraiya's opponents hold back so that he can win. 


Serene Grace said:


> The initial amaterasu would already be wasted on the clones if you mean Itachi would use another Amaterasu, act like that seems unlikely from someone of his intellect. Think about it. Using an MS jutsu whilst already knowing your opponent has a method of countering it


Fanfic, dawg. Bursts that can cover dozens of meters aren't going to be stopped by a few clones and Itachi will obviously see someone making clones right in front of his face and be ready for it thanks to his Sharingan. Unless Jiraiya can magically teleport afterwards, making clones isn't gonna do anything but get him roasted


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## Mar55 (Apr 8, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> But its a change of pace nonetheless


Nooooooooooooo!!


Trolling said:


> I already said how I think Itachi's wins, against Nagato. Tsukuyomi GG.


Requires eye contact, an unlikely option when Nagato is bombarding him with Rinnegan techs.


Gohara said:


> @ mars.
> 
> I'm more so referring to the suspicions of defending Konoha.


Which no one would have reason to suspect, since that's "completely outlandish" and doesn't even track considering killing other missing nin is common among missing nin and Akatsuki.


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## wooly Eullerex (Apr 9, 2018)

7 pages?.. ...did the rinnegan user beat the sharingan user yet?


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## Serene Grace (Apr 9, 2018)

Trolling said:


> He still wouldn't have a reason to use the dust cloud, because they ​would be avoiding eye contact anyway


Countering or fighting dojutsu is contingent on blocking the LOS. If Jiraiya, ma or pa sense a gigantic build up of chakra specifically from a dojutsu, it would honestly be asisne for them to not at least attempt to block the LOS, or go for their best option and use the dust cloud.




Trolling said:


> 2 controllable frogs on his shoulder.


Dust cloud, pre-knowledge on amaterasu, clones LOS blockers and keeping their distance makes genjutsu hard



Trolling said:


> I mean even, if they did used dust cloud, what than?


Attack, and or imploy a possible frog call to paralyze Itachi then one shot him with COR or Yomi Numa



Trolling said:


> Itachi doesn't even have to rely solely on MS


Yes he does dude, thats the only way he can actually hurt Jiraiya



Trolling said:


> he has KB + fast handseals.


And what hit him with kunais, shurkiens and katons that can be outright tanked? Anything that isn't MS is useless bar genjutsu which I mentioned how it can be avoided



Jackalinthebox said:


> Shima would have to already be summoned


Well no shit lol



Jackalinthebox said:


> have full knowledge on Ama


Nope, she can very well be expecting Tsukuyomi or even just regular genjutsu. That and countering/ fighting dojutsu is contingent when it comes actually defeating it, no reason assume Ma, Pa and Jiraiya would stand like retards when they sense a huge build up of chakra specifically from a dojutsu. 



Jackalinthebox said:


> Even then, you're assuming Shima is fast to sense the build up


As Nagato did, an SM user with enhanced perception and reactions shouldn't have much problem



Jackalinthebox said:


> recognize what it means


Well, of course, Jiraiya would tell her of Tsukuyomi's and genjutsu's existence before the fight even began



Jackalinthebox said:


> clap her hands together and expel enough dust to blind Itachi before the flames start to emerge on Jiraiya.


Reference Nagato who was able to warn Bee and Naruto, express more dialogue and finally, Bee was able to throw his sword all before the build up



Jackalinthebox said:


> Nope. Some of those bursts were big enough to cover the tops of a few trees.


What do you mean by "some" that was one Amaterasu

Ok, the size of the top of a tree<<<<<multiple human sized clones being summoned



Jackalinthebox said:


> Not likely for him to do? Even though we've already seen him do it in canon?


You mean the fucking fight he was trying to die in? 


 Ignoring that even if he does Jiraiya isn't gonna stand there like a retard, he'll probably just shunsin away while he's occupied with the clones or throw his balance off with katon, or even yomi numa



Jackalinthebox said:


> Itachi will obviously see someone making clones right in front of his face and be ready for it thanks to his Sharingan.


And do what? Amaterasu appears at the focal point of the user's sight, it doesn't extend to what the user can't see. If clones are blocking Jiraiya he has no other choice but to burn them instead of Jiraiya. Common sense lol


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## Mar55 (Apr 9, 2018)

walpurgis Burgoo said:


> 7 pages?.. ...did the rinnegan user beat the sharingan user yet?


That was done in the first 2 pages, the rest just devolved from there.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Jackalinthebox (Apr 9, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> As Nagato did, an SM user with enhanced perception and reactions shouldn't have much problem
> 
> Reference Nagato who was able to warn Bee and Naruto, express more dialogue and finally, Bee was able to throw his sword all before the build up


I'm convinced you aren't even trying to make sense anymore. She obviously doesn't scale to a stronger version of the dude that casually ganked her & Fukasaka in canon. For fucks sake, Kakashi's raiton bunshin reacted to Bansho Ten'in far better than Fukasaka did. An arc later Kakashi was forced to use a Kamui to avoid getting skewered by a Susano'o arrow, yet you think a slower character is going to make multiple physical movements & spit out a bunch of dust before a Jutsu of comparable speed to the arrow hits


Oh look, going with the lowest showing of Amaterasu. Big surprise. A few panels after that Nagato isn't even able to successfully warn of Ama. Obito saw Amaterasu coming and still wasn't able to do shit, Danzo got sniped by it before he could do anything either. Hebi Sasuke, a character with speed on par with Kakashi couldn't do anything but take a couple steps in the time it took Amaterasu to charge up & start releasing flames


Serene Grace said:


> What do you mean by "some" that was one Amaterasu
> 
> Ok, the size of the top of a tree<<<<<multiple human sized clones being summoned


You can see the different groupings of flames in the panel I posted. I'm well aware that it was only one use of Amaterasu

Now you're just being a dishonest debater. Those bursts are far larger than you're trying to make them out to be, then a few panels later they had spread to cover over a couple hundred meters. Regardless, I already mentioned the AoE of Amaterasu used against Cerberus was big enough to easily fit a handful of Nardo's in it. The initial AoE of the Ama used vs Gyuki was huge, dozens of meters without a doubt. Itachi is going to see the clones coming with his Sharingan and will just continue to focus on the area of the clones, creating more flames, Jiraiya gets barbecued.



Serene Grace said:


> You mean the fucking fight he was trying to die in?
> 
> 
> Ignoring that even if he does Jiraiya isn't gonna stand there like a retard, he'll probably just shunsin away while he's occupied with the clones or throw his balance off with katon, or even yomi numa


It was already his third use of the Mangekyo and he used it three more times after. Using Amaterasu once or twice isn't going to kill him you dolt. Sasuke used a massive amount of flames when he used Ama vs B...yet he was fine and he had just got done fighting for his life

Jiraiya isn't going to have the time to pull off those Jutsu is the thing. Which you inconveniently disregard in favor of wanking your fave. If he stands there and tries to weave signs he gets covered in fire, if he tries to run away he gets hit with Ama faster than Sauce did when he tried to run


Serene Grace said:


> And do what? Amaterasu appears at the focal point of the user's sight, it doesn't extend to what the user can't see. If clones are blocking Jiraiya he has no other choice but to burn them instead of Jiraiya. Common sense lol


He spreads the flames obviously...leaving Jiraiya with no choice but to run and eventually get caught. I know people like to go full retard when it comes to Amaterasu in the battledome, but anyone with half a brain will tell you it's a running joke in the battledome and blatantly downplay.

You've even admitted that you're a Jiraiya wanker...not that it's hard to tell with your constant downplay of characters and abilities so that your guy looks better. I suggest you sit back and get some tips from some of the actually competent debaters, then rethink your approach. After that, maybe you'll stop getting embarrassed and made to look dumb so often. Just some friendly advice, considering I've been seeing you get constantly shredded in threads ever since I started posting in the NBD again. I mean...just look how bad you're doing against me right now, I'm schooling you like I'm your dad

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Apr 9, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Again, I repeat, take a while off from posting in vs threads and become better at debating. Feel free to ask me some tips. Until then, you aren't worth my time
> 
> 
> I can only trash your whack ass arguments so many times before I lose interest and become too bored to care anymore


feelings mutual


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## Bookworm (Apr 9, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Dust cloud, pre-knowledge on amaterasu, clones LOS blockers and keeping their distance makes genjutsu hard


Unless Dust cloud is used from the beginning, Itachi can still put Jiraiya in genjutsu and if he keeps his distance there's not much Jiraiya can hit Itachi with. Clones are no good. Not to mention, Itachi can simply shunshin out of the range of Dust Cloud.



Serene Grace said:


> Attack, and or imploy a possible frog call to paralyze Itachi then one shot him with COR or Yomi Numa


Frog Call wouldn't stop Susanoo. Itachi can use LOS blocker to switch with a clone, so even if Jiraiya gets him, it would just be a clone.



Serene Grace said:


> And what hit him with kunais, shurkiens and katons that can be outright tanked? Anything that isn't MS is useless bar genjutsu which I mentioned how it can be avoided


Jiraiya hasn't tanked a katon before.  If there trying to fight him close range, it would be very easy for him to catch one of them with genjutsu. Itachi has an explosive clone as well and Yasaki Magatama also has the strength of several explosive tags.


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## Serene Grace (Apr 9, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Frog Call wouldn't stop Susanoo


It clearly has paralytic affects hence it paralyzed Pein's summonings. If frog call is used on itachi he'll be stunned likely momentarily, but good enough for an opening.

Yomi Numa could sink Susanoo while Itachi is temporaily paralyzed


Trolling said:


> Itachi can use LOS blocker to switch with a clone


What? 

The quote you responded to says Jiraiya could hit Itachi with a frog call in conjunction with Yomi Numa or COR, I'm confused about what you're refuting.



Trolling said:


> Unless Dust cloud is used from the beginning


No reason for it to not be used at the beginning, they're going against a dojutsu user whose entire fighting style bases around his LOS and what it can see.



Trolling said:


> Jiraiya hasn't tanked a katon before


Sage body was shown to be on a completely different level in comparison to its base body, Itachi's katons do not have extraordinary feats from what I remember, even then a katon can be stalemated by an even stronger katon from Jiraiya or just simply evaded with sage enhanced speed reflexes and perception



Trolling said:


> If there trying to fight him close range, it would be very easy for him to catch one of them with genjutsu.


Not if the dust cloud is up. If he decides to shunsin way then he can't really catch them genjutsu 



Trolling said:


> Clones are no good.


Why?



Trolling said:


> Itachi has an explosive clone as well


Zero features of actually hurting a competent shinobi



Trolling said:


> Yasaki Magatama also has the strength of several explosive tags


"Anything that isn't MS can be outright tanked or evaded". Yasaki Magatama beads are apart of MS, no? 

Regardless they get evaded, they don't have any notable speed features from what I remember.


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## Tri (Apr 9, 2018)

I feel like this thread has served its purpose 

@FlamingRain @Blu-ray


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## Blu-ray (Apr 9, 2018)

This thread managed to exist and get to 11 pages all while I was completely oblivious to its existence.

I need a break.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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