# MS Sasuke vs Tsunade



## JayK (Aug 28, 2019)

Should be a good match up according to some geniuses in the NBD.

Starting Distance: 25m
SoM: Bloodlusted
Location: an overszied chess board
Restrictions: good match ups don't need restrictions right?


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 28, 2019)

chidori eiso x2, gg


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## Maverick04 (Aug 28, 2019)

This Sasuke destroys Tsunade and kills Sakura for shits and giggles.


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## t0xeus (Aug 28, 2019)

Slug > Ocean > Atmosphere > Emo kid > Slug

Sasuke wins low diff 

Cuts Tsunade in half before she decides to release seal


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## Soul (Aug 28, 2019)

JayK said:


> Restrictions: good match ups don't need restrictions right?



Wrong. Good thing this is a terrible match-up.


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## Grinningfox (Aug 28, 2019)

Hahahhahahahahaha


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## Shazam (Aug 28, 2019)

JayK said:


> Should be a good match up according to some geniuses in the NBD.
> 
> Starting Distance: 25m
> SoM: Bloodlusted
> ...



Enton GG. 

Healthy Orochimaru could win however. 

So still near that Sannin level


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## t0xeus (Aug 28, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Enton GG.
> 
> Healthy Orochimaru could win however.
> 
> So still near that Sannin level


Healthy Orochimaru is beyond Sannin level


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## Grinningfox (Aug 28, 2019)

t0xeus said:


> Healthy Orochimaru is beyond Sannin level



No he’s not


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## Ishmael (Aug 28, 2019)

JayK said:


> Should be a good match up according to some geniuses in the NBD.
> 
> Starting Distance: 25m
> SoM: Bloodlusted
> ...



Which version.


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## t0xeus (Aug 28, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> No he’s not


How doesn't ET put Orochimaru lile full tier above


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## Grinningfox (Aug 28, 2019)

t0xeus said:


> How doesn't ET put Orochimaru lile full tier above



If this is what you meant than sure

Restricting that and then all the Sannin are same level


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## t0xeus (Aug 28, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> If this is what you meant than sure
> 
> Restricting that and then all the Sannin are same level


ET is Orochimaru's trump card like for Jiraiya SM or for Tsunade Byakugo is
Why'd you restrict it and not the other two


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## Ishmael (Aug 28, 2019)

t0xeus said:


> ET is Orochimaru's trump card



Hydra is his trump card, ET is some prep based sht that has to be specified if he can use it.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Bonly (Aug 28, 2019)

Once Sasuke uses the MS jutsu he’ll overwhelm her with Enton and Ama


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## Grinningfox (Aug 28, 2019)

t0xeus said:


> ET is Orochimaru's trump card like for Jiraiya SM or for Tsunade Byakugo is
> Why'd you restrict it and not the other two



No 

ET is a  powerful technique  but it wasn’t his trump card until after he was revived with a Zetsu body and absorbed Kabuto’s knowledge and power .

Eight headed serpent was his greatest technique and it is on par with SM and Byakugo


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## Ishmael (Aug 28, 2019)

Ms sasuke wins low diff. Between starting his fights out with his toughest techs, being versatile enough to keep Tsunade at a distance and top her in cqc he should take this comfortably.


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## Shazam (Aug 28, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> If this is what you meant than sure
> 
> Restricting that and then all the Sannin are same level



Roughly


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## Grinningfox (Aug 28, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Roughly



Sure


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## t0xeus (Aug 28, 2019)

Samael said:


> Hydra is his trump card, ET is some prep based sht that has to be specified if he can use it.


@Grinningfox 
Hydra is his trump card from Akatsuki days


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## JayK (Aug 28, 2019)

If Tsunade stomps too hard throw in Itachi.


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## Ishmael (Aug 28, 2019)

JayK said:


> If Tsunade stomps too hard throw in Itachi.



Stop it


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## Kisame (Aug 28, 2019)

Tsunade is closer to Hebi Sasuke's level.


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## Ishmael (Aug 28, 2019)

Where the Tsunade troops? I have time today.


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## Grinningfox (Aug 28, 2019)

t0xeus said:


> @Grinningfox
> Hydra is his trump card from Akatsuki days



All the way up to the War Arc .

Edo Tensei wasn’t his best move until he got the + version from Kabuto . He used ET just to fuck with Hiruzen in PT


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## Zembie (Aug 28, 2019)

Shark said:


> Tsunade is closer to Hebi Sasuke's level.


That goes for all Sannin tbh. Base Jiraiya loses to Hebi due to matchup, Oro probably loses for the same reason.


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## Charmed (Aug 28, 2019)

I think Tsunade is stronger, but it's a bad match up.
If this was MS Sasuke, when he fought against Bee, I could see Tsunade winning.
But she still has no counter to Amaterasu... hmm so it'll be a tie?


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## t0xeus (Aug 28, 2019)

Charmed said:


> I think Tsunade is stronger, but it's a bad match up.
> If this was MS Sasuke, when he fought against Bee, I could see Tsunade winning.
> But she still has no counter to Amaterasu... hmm so it'll be a tie?


No, that means it's a loss for Tsunade


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## Charmed (Aug 28, 2019)

t0xeus said:


> No, that means it's a loss for Tsunade


I was thinking of a scenario in which Sasuke runs out of chakra quickly, and Tsunade manages to smash him.
If Tsunade was tagged with Amaterasu, then she will die eventually too, couse I don't know how she can "heal" Amaterasu, or seal it.
So in this scenario it's a tie, both die.


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## t0xeus (Aug 28, 2019)

Charmed said:


> I was thinking of a scenario in which Sasuke runs out of chakra quickly, and Tsunade manages to smash him.
> If Tsunade was tagged with Amaterasu, then she will die eventually too, couse I don't know how she can "heal" Amaterasu, or seal it.
> So in this scenario it's a tie, both die.


MS Sasuke doesn't really use Amaterasu/Enton sparingly, he spams it


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## Speedyamell (Aug 28, 2019)

Danzo fight Sasuke should win high diff. Any lesser version of ms Sasuke gets pasted.


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## Grinningfox (Aug 28, 2019)

Charmed said:


> I was thinking of a scenario in which Sasuke runs out of chakra quickly, and Tsunade manages to smash him.
> If Tsunade was tagged with Amaterasu, then she will die eventually too, couse I don't know how she can "heal" Amaterasu, or seal it.
> So in this scenario it's a tie, both die.



Nah she gets Ama’d


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## Francyst (Aug 28, 2019)

Charmed said:


> I think Tsunade is stronger, but it's a bad match up.
> If this was MS Sasuke, when he fought against Bee, I could see Tsunade winning.
> *But she still has no counter to Amaterasu... hmm so it'll be a tie?*


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## Charmed (Aug 28, 2019)

t0xeus said:


> MS Sasuke doesn't really use Amaterasu/Enton sparingly, he spams it



hmm, but can she heal it to outlast Sasuke, though? Of course healing Amaterasu won't make it disappear... but will give her a chance to smash Sasuke and then she dies too.


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## t0xeus (Aug 28, 2019)

Charmed said:


> hmm, but can she heal it to outlast Sasuke, though? Of course healing Amaterasu won't make it disappear... but will give her a chance to smash Sasuke and then she dies too.


She wouldn't even be able to see him through the flames on her body

Let alone that the oxygen would deplete very quickly around her head because of the heat, so she might even pass out from suffocation in a short moment


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## Charmed (Aug 28, 2019)

t0xeus said:


> She wouldn't even be able to see him through the flames on her body
> 
> Let alone that the oxygen would deplete very quickly around her head because of the heat, so she might even pass out from suffocation in a short moment


hmmm you don't say...
I was thinking of the fact that Amaterasu burns sloooowly... but I didn't think about the lack of oxygen... I mean, in the end it doesn't matter how fast she can heal herself, or how much chakra she has, she still needs to breathe, or else, she'll pass out...

Yeah, so I guess she loses then, it's just a bad match up.
I'd still rank her higher overall, though.


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## hbcaptain (Aug 28, 2019)

MS Sasukes is a cut stronger as well as a bad matchup for Tsunade due to Ama/Enton, he wins without much struggle here.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JayK (Aug 28, 2019)

Samael said:


> Stop it


Should I add Kakashi to the MS duo aswell?


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## Ishmael (Aug 28, 2019)

JayK said:


> Should I add Kakashi to the MS duo aswell?



Stop it lmao there doesn't seem to be any Tsunade supporters here man, but what inspired this thread. I must know.


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## Kisame (Aug 28, 2019)

Zembie said:


> That goes for all Sannin tbh. Base Jiraiya loses to Hebi due to matchup, Oro probably loses for the same reason.


For me Base Jiraiya, Tsunade and Hebi Sasuke are on the same level. Jiraiya (I.e starts in base but can go SM) is a level/tier above them.

Orochimaru is somewhere in between Jiraiya and Hebi Sasuke; he's supposed to be slightly inferior to Jiraiya meaning he's superior to Base Jiraiya.


Jiraiya

*Average gap*

Orochimaru

*Average gap*

Hebi Sasuke
Base Jiraiya
Tsunade


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## Hi no Ishi (Aug 28, 2019)

Zembie said:


> That goes for all Sannin tbh. Base Jiraiya loses to Hebi due to matchup, Oro probably loses for the same reason.


Jiraiya is kinda a bad matchup for Hebi Sasuke actually; A guy who covers you and the area in flammable oil as an opening attack vs a dude who uses sparks with almost every attack isnt really good.
Outside of that I would count Hebi as a solid match for any Sannin on their best day.

OT: MS Sasuke is above any Sannin individually and is a horrible match up for Tsunade in general


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## Shazam (Aug 28, 2019)

Dude is super salty about Sannin lol


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## Shazam (Aug 28, 2019)

Zembie said:


> That goes for all Sannin tbh. Base Jiraiya loses to Hebi due to matchup, Oro probably loses for the same reason.



Healthy Orochimaru does not lose to Hebi Sasuke. You crazy? 

Base Jiraiya is a tough one, could go either way.


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## t0xeus (Aug 28, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> A guy who covers you and the area in flammable oil as an opening attack


When did that happen?


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## Sufex (Aug 28, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Dude is super salty about Sannin lol


You cant talk when you spammed spite threads about the masters for days non stop.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 28, 2019)

Uh

*Link Removed* Sasuke who opens with it even while exhausted as per canon

Hard counters Tsunade as she cant activate Byakugo instantly and needs time to cast hand seals

Also hard counters regen *Link Removed*...With BETTER and MORE SUSTAINABLE regen than Byakugo is regardless...

Inb4 "Tsunade punches away the fire" that SPAWNS DIRECTLY ON HER PERSON FASTER THAN SHE CAN PROCESS A THOUGHT

As if the speeds of a literal throwaway Katon or its power can be compared to the pinnacle of Fire release capable of burning other fire and keeping pace with Raikages top speeds

Sasuke unironically low diffs here

1 Jutsu and its over

Tsunades fighting style also makes her susceptible to genjutsu as well, something else Sasuke readily employs that she has no answer for.

Katsuyu is also negged with it.


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## Kisame (Aug 28, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Jiraiya is kinda a bad matchup for Hebi Sasuke actually; A guy who covers you and the area in flammable oil as an opening attack vs a dude who uses sparks with almost every attack isnt really good.
> Outside of that I would count Hebi as a solid match for any Sannin on their best day.
> 
> OT: MS Sasuke is above any Sannin individually and is a horrible match up for Tsunade in general


Gamayu Endan can be countered by Manda.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 28, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Jiraiya is kinda a bad matchup for Hebi Sasuke actually


Not really


Hi no Ishi said:


> A guy who covers you and the area in flammable oil as an opening attack


The Oil largely comes from his summons if you mean any meaningful amount of it

And Summons are hard countered by Sasukes genjutsu

Hed also never tag Sasuke with the variant and pitiful amount he tagged Konan with, and any amount of oil on the battlefield can easily be weaponized by Sasuke just as much as Jiraiya as hes also a Katon user

And in the event Sasuke WAS tagged (however unlikely) a simply skin shedding gets rid of the Oil on him while also setting up a Kirin prep window simultaneously...


Hi no Ishi said:


> a dude who uses sparks with almost every attack isnt really good.


Sure it is

As I just went over, the oil is usable by both Jiraiya AND Sasuke to augment their attacks if Jiraiya just leaves it laying around


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## Sufex (Aug 28, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Not really
> 
> The Oil largely comes from his summons if you mean any meaningful amount of it
> 
> ...


Not to mention Jmans use of katon and oil only helps hebi set up kirin eaiser.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 28, 2019)

Tsunade’s closer to Hebi Sasuke IMO. I wouldn’t even put Orochimaru above MS sasuke and I think that he’s the strongest of the Sannin.


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## Mithos (Aug 28, 2019)

t0xeus said:


> No, that means it's a loss for Tsunade



Sasuke had Amaterasu but would have died before he used it during the Bee fight. There's no reason that couldn't be the case against Tsunade if we're talking about early versions of MS Sasuke. 

It would take Danzo-fight MS Sasuke to _reliably _defeat Tsunade, in my opinion.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 28, 2019)

Matto said:


> It would take Danzo-fight MS Sasuke to _reliably _defeat Tsunade, in my opinion.



Danzō-fight MS Sasuke probably dies immediately because he likes to block with ribcage Susano'o before striking back.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 28, 2019)

FlamingRain said:


> Danzō-fight MS Sasuke probably dies immediately because he likes to block with ribcage Susano'o before striking back.


Base Tsunade isnt breaking Ribcage Susanoo bud

She needed help from the Raikage and repeated hits to break Madaras ribcage and thats while she was AMPED on Byakugo

Shes also dying long before she gets close to Sasuke to punch the guy anyway


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## ShinAkuma (Aug 28, 2019)

Ahem..... @Femme


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## FlamingRain (Aug 28, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Base Tsunade isnt breaking Ribcage Susanoo bud



Tsunade cited a _general_ rule about Byakugō when she released it as soon as she went on the offensive against Madara, so she will not be in base against someone who's killed Akatsuki members in the past.



> She needed help from the Raikage and repeated hits to break Madaras ribcage and thats while she was AMPED on Byakugo



She didn't need Raikage _or_ repeated hits to put a dent in the thing with her _first_ shot and crack that entire side. Raikage couldn't budge it until Ohnoki added weight to him despite being strong enough to break through Sasuke's at the Kage Summit with the same chop. Tsunade punches Sasuke's Susano'o and the leftover force will tear his head off.



> Shes also dying long before she gets close to Sasuke to punch the guy anyway



Danzō started running from the other side of the bridge and Sasuke's response was to put up ribcage Susano'o, not light him up with Amaterasu.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 28, 2019)

FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade cited a _general_ rule about Byakugō when she released it as soon as she went on the offensive against Madara, so she will not be in base against someone who's killed Akatsuki members in the past.


A guy who killed Akatsuki members =/= Madara

Tsunade didnt open with Byakugo against Oro or Pain either man


FlamingRain said:


> She didn't need Raikage _or_ repeated hits to put a dent in the thing with her _first_ shot


Yeah

But denting the thing with Byakugo hits isnt shit 

And her Base doesnt scale to that, so its even less shit

If Tsunades Byakugo amped hits can just barely crack Madaras ribcage do pardon me if I dont assume that shes turning Sasuke froma  solid to a liquid through his own Ribcage with just her Base hits


FlamingRain said:


> Raikage couldn't budge it until Ohnoki added weight to him


V1 Raikage


FlamingRain said:


> despite being strong enough to break through Sasuke's at the Kage Summit with the same chop


Wasnt the same chop

The attack that broke Sasukes Susanoo was a V2 chop

Not a V1 chop

And regardless, the Raikages attacks on Sasuke merely break a single Susanoo rib, they dont bypass the defense at all


FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade punches Sasuke's Susano'o and the leftover force will tear his head off.


Yeah no


FlamingRain said:


> Danzō started running from the other side of the bridge and Sasuke's response was to put up ribcage Susano'o, not light him up with Amaterasu.


Sasuke was initially fucking with Danzo as he needed information regarding the massacre

He wouldnt just murder Danzo immediately without having a chat with him


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## Ishmael (Aug 28, 2019)

FlamingRain said:


> Danzō started running from the other side of the bridge and Sasuke's response was to put up ribcage Susano'o, not light him up with Amaterasu.



First you have to take into account of the events that were going on at the time and the intelligence/mindset of sasukes character.

One during the whole danzo thing there was another reason for him just simply not lighting danzo up from the jump but later on we see him spamming Ama just as he would against an opponent. 

Two these are different opponents which means a different strategy/ style of fighting. He knows Tsunade has the stregnth, knows she's a medical ninja and her biggest advantage comes from cqc engagements. So why wouldn't he neutralize any type of chance of her getting the advantage?  He's liable to shoot Amaterasu at this stage that isn't an argument imo, there's to much evidence going against someone saying he isn't. Therefore it shouldn't be hard to come to an conclusion that sasuke a prodigy who has shown great tactical ability in fights wouldn't try to neutralize his opponents biggest advantage.

There is no personal vendetta going on with these two, he doesn't need confirmation on anything, he can fight as he wants and has no need to hold back. Tsunade will get hit with Amaterasu before she can get in striking range with sasuke and there's nothing she can do about it. She isn't fast enough to make sasuke camp in susanoo because he can't keep up with her speed, he's very good in taijutsu himself so she's not backing him down either.  

He's liable to use ama or susanoo arrow, one of the two before she is to use her seal or get into striking distance.


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## Ishmael (Aug 28, 2019)

Would she even survive being crushed via the hand of ribcage susanoo?


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## Ishmael (Aug 28, 2019)

Or is her durability good enough to stop enough force that turned another into paste if I'm not mistaken.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 28, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> A guy who killed Akatsuki members =/= Madara



I didn't claim that. That is why I pointed out that she cited a general rule and even italicized general. 

Being Madara level is not a requirement.



> Tsunade didnt open with Byakugo against Oro or Pain either man



Neither fact matters because she hadn't even completed it when she fought Orochimaru and all she did was talk when Pain appeared in front of her.



> Yeah
> 
> But denting the thing with Byakugo hits isnt shit



Raikage put less cracks in the ribcage when he had Ohnoki adding to his weight as he struck, which means there's an incredible difference in strength because Ohnoki used that technique to take his rock fist from not scratching Gengetsu's clam to smashing all the way through it to the ground.



> And her Base doesnt scale to that, so its even less shit



Doesn't matter whether her base scales to that or not because she won't be in base.



> V1 Raikage
> 
> Wasnt the same chop
> 
> The attack that broke Sasukes Susanoo was a V2 chop



Didn't look like V1 Raikage when he first took off, and if his attack didn't do anything to Madara himself (another thing which illustrates how huge the strength gap is between himself and Tsunade given that she punched a giant hole into Madara and not a single Kage thought there was anything suspect about it) he certainly wouldn't have exerted less effort striking Susano'o once he saw it. Raikage was actually standing still when he chopped Sasuke whereas he had gravity on his side when he tried and failed to damage Madara's ribcage so if anything he hit harder when he struck Madara's than he did Sasuke's.



> And regardless, the Raikages attacks on Sasuke merely break a single Susanoo rib, they dont bypass the defense at all



It still hit Sasuke and caused him to cough up blood, so the exponentially stronger Tsunade would straight up kill him.



> Sasuke was initially fucking with Danzo as he needed information regarding the massacre
> 
> He wouldnt just murder Danzo immediately without having a chat with him



He didn't need to wait until Danzō attacks for that, he chose to because that's just how he is, and he didn't care too much  regardlessor he wouldn't have been so quick to squish him.


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## Phenomenon (Aug 28, 2019)

Tsunade isn't beating MS and above versions of Sasuke, He has the tools to put her down, Chidori variants and a superior Amaterasu to his brother are enough to cause her serious problems without taking a Susanoo covered with Enton protection that can last long enough into consideration.


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## Femme (Aug 28, 2019)

Is this really a thread, tsunade crushes him. Tsunade has literally showed immunity to most Sharingan attacks, she looks Madara in the eye. He susanoo isn’t saving him from anything. Amaterasu will burn, but it leaves Sasuke open for a punch.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 28, 2019)

Samael said:


> First you have to take into account of the events that were going on at the time and the intelligence/mindset of sasukes character.



I am. Otherwise I'd be like everyone else in this thread saying that Sasuke fries Tsunade with Amaterasu before she gets near him. Sasuke's response to incoming melee attacks has been Susano'o from the time he achieved it to the Danzō fight. Sasuke started spamming Amaterasu _after_ Danzō backed off and attacking from there.



> Two these are different opponents which means a different strategy/ style of fighting.



You ought to take your own advice and account for intelligence, because _at that time_ Sasuke did not know anything about Danzō's fighting style, just that he was charging him. Not once has it been suggested that Sasuke knows about Tsunade's strength or medical expertise either so why would he not act the same way with her? Madara had even more advanced eyes than Sasuke and yet didn't realize her strength until _after_ he saw her actually hit something.



> he doesn't need confirmation on anything,



I _was_ going to say he didn't need it with Danzō either but upon re-reading the fight he did say "so it was true" before squishing him. I'll give you that, but it doesn't change the fact that when people have approached him he has responded with Susano'o and he doesn't know Tsunade will be able to break through to him.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 28, 2019)

FlamingRain said:


> Not once has it been suggested that Sasuke knows about Tsunade's strength or medical expertise either



Let me clarify here. He knows she's a master of medicine. What he doesn't know is the true extent of her ability to heal/regenerate.


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## zaddyxx22 (Aug 28, 2019)

Shark said:


> Tsunade is closer to Hebi Sasuke's level.


all of the sannin can comfortably defeat Hebi sauce


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## Kisame (Aug 28, 2019)

zaddyxx22 said:


> all of the sannin can comfortably defeat Hebi sauce


No they can't, Orochimaru can with some difficulty, Jiraiya with his ultimate form SM and Tsunade with extreme difficulty.


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## zaddyxx22 (Aug 28, 2019)

Shark said:


> No they can't, Orochimaru can with some difficulty, Jiraiya with his ultimate form SM and Tsunade with extreme difficulty.


 edit: if Kirin doesn't come into play
and I think you're over rating Hebi Sasuke


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## JayK (Aug 28, 2019)

3 pages of Tsunade vs MS Sasuke

See? I told you guys this was a good match up.


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## Blu-ray (Aug 28, 2019)

Not sure why people are making it out to be some sort of spite to be honest. Sasuke's opening move against Danzo was to block his punch with a ribcage Susanoo'o. If he tries that shit against Tsunade, he's getting serious injuries if not getting killed outright. So it's not like she's so inferior that she can't kill him or has no business fighting him or something.

Granted his mindset is bloodlusted here, so she's getting lit up by Ama and dying a slow painful death as soon as the match starts, but it's not like her odds of winning are zero percent in a more neutral scenario. 5, maybe 10% tops.


WorldsStrongest said:


> If Tsunades Byakugo amped hits can just barely crack Madaras ribcage do pardon me if I dont assume that shes turning Sasuke froma solid to a liquid through his own Ribcage with just her Base hits


You can't even begin to compare Madara's ribcage Susano'o to Sasuke's though. Just look at the damage A4 managed against Sasuke's, and what he managed against Madara's. In the first one *Link Removed* and hit Sasuke in the neck with enough force to make him hack up blood, while in the second his only managed to make a *Link Removed* Even with Onoki weighing him down, A's lighting chop still failed to deal as much damage to Madara's ribcage as it did to Sasuke's. If she hits his ribcage, she's maiming him if not killing him outright.

Reactions: Like 1


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## weegee22 (Aug 28, 2019)

Femme said:


> Is this really a thread, tsunade crushes him. Tsunade has literally showed immunity to most Sharingan attacks, she looks Madara in the eye. He susanoo isn’t saving him from anything. Amaterasu will burn, but it leaves Sasuke open for a punch.



Oh, you really have no clue how screwed Tsunade really is.


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## Kisame (Aug 28, 2019)

Sasuke protecting himself with Susano'o isn't a weakness or something against him.

Kishimoto didn't draw Sasuke blocking Danzo with Susano'o for us to conclude "Sasuke is in danger against anything above ribcage Susano'o in the beginning of a fight". I doubt that was going through Kishi's mind.

Also, Sasuke wasn't trying to kill Danzo (for  now), only interrogate him. So if we're being so critical of this one instance we could at best say Sasuke is in danger against Tsunade if he's trying to interrogate her.

Sasuke also lacked knowledge of Danzo's strength, manga knowledge (neutral) means he knows Tsunade is Hokage/Sannin.
Sasuke is faster, more reactive, and has sharingan (with direct emphasis from the author on Sasuke evading _fast CQC specialists_).

Tsunade is not even as strong as Sasuke by portrayal, let alone be so far above him he doesn't get to display most of his arsenal before being one-shot casually.

It's no different than saying Sasuke catches her in a genjutsu and slices her with Chidori Eiso as his first move, except this is less inconceivable because Sasuke is actually portrayed above her.


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## BlackHeartedImp (Aug 28, 2019)

The only way Tsunade can win is if Sasuke starts wanting body.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 28, 2019)

Blu-ray said:


> You can't even begin to compare Madara's ribcage Susano'o to Sasuke's though


Thats not what I was doing

Madaras Ribcage >>> Sasukes in the exact same way that Byakugo Tsunades CES >>> Base Tsunades

I wasnt arguing that Sasuke is gonna soak up multiple Byakugo punches and combos from Tsunade with Ribcage alone, I was arguing that one BASE CES hit is hardly going to put Sasuke out of commission through the defence of Susanoo

WHats gonn ha[ppen is shes gonna tag Susanoo, and its probably gonna suck for Sasuke, but hes gonna be fine even if Susanoo gets severely damaged if not outright destroyed.

As shown with Kirin vs Itachi (*Link Removed*,*Link Removed*) and Juubito dropslam vs EMS Sasuke and BSM Naruto (1,*Link Removed*) , Susanoo can get DUSTED, literally oneshotted from 100%-0% in an instant, and teh user will retain full functionality and combat performance and will take little to no lasting damage and can just get back up and manifest an EVEN STRONGER form of susanoo immediately after...

So Tsunade tags Sasuke, gets blocked with Susanoo but likely laid out anyway, recovers and oneshots with Amaterasu

Best case scenario for Tsunade


Blu-ray said:


> In the first one *Link Removed*


With V2 against Sasuke

He used V1 against Madaras ribcage

He states after that attack that he will "go faster and up his damage" as a result

And that was BEFORE he knew Onoki could augment his speed which he finds out like 3 pages later when they all listen to Onokis plan

Meaning, he wouldnt have said that if he was already in V2


Blu-ray said:


> Even with Onoki weighing him down, A's lighting chop still failed to deal as much damage to Madara's ribcage as it did to Sasuke's.


*Link Removed*

Then followed up by a V2 attack compared to Madaras that only took V1 hits

Further, As attack there not decimating Madaras ribcage is PIS

Pure and simple

For some reason, *Link Removed* or something or Onoki being fatigued or whatever, or maybe A doesnt move nearly at top speed prior to hitting Madara unlike the first time (which would make sense as hes midair and cant exactly sprint at top speed, and was also trying to coordinate with the much slower Tsunade) A's attack doesnt hit nearly as hard as his earlier one. As earlier, A hits hard enough to not only bypass Ribcage, but DECIMATES a fully formed V3 susanoo in fact


Blu-ray said:


> If she hits his ribcage, she's maiming him if not killing him outright.


I adamantly disagree

Reactions: Like 1


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## Devil_Jin (Aug 28, 2019)

Tsunade neg diffs with light speed reactions


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## Speedyamell (Aug 28, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> MS Sasukes is a cut stronger as well as a bad matchup for Tsunade due to Ama/Enton, he wins without much struggle here.


Nah. Tsunade can swat ama away with ces. We already saw her swat away flame(literally gas), against madara already.
That amaterasu is going to give Sasuke a quick win against a sannin is fanfic


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## Speedyamell (Aug 28, 2019)

Shark said:


> Tsunade is closer to Hebi Sasuke's level.


No. Suigetsu knows Sasuke well and still considered an Oro that still hadn't gotten back his hand seals a threat to Sasuke *even with Ems*. 
The sannin are on the same tier as Ms sasuke and a tier above hebi.
Hebi Sasuke gets that on by any sannin


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## Ishmael (Aug 28, 2019)

FlamingRain said:


> I am. Otherwise I'd be like everyone else in this thread saying that Sasuke fries Tsunade with Amaterasu before she gets near him. Sasuke's response to incoming melee attacks has been Susano'o from the time he achieved it to the Danzō fight. Sasuke started spamming Amaterasu _after_ Danzō backed off and attacking from there



We won't go anywhere if you're only going to address the Danzo fight. Sasuke is shown using Ama freely before that fight and unless it's been said by the OP that this is specifically the Danzo fight sasuke I don't know why you're ignoring previous encounters. 



FlamingRain said:


> You ought to take your own advice and account for intelligence, because _at that time_ Sasuke did not know anything about Danzō's fighting style, just that he was charging him. Not once has it been suggested that Sasuke knows about Tsunade's strength or medical expertise either so why would he not act the same way with her? Madara had even more advanced eyes than Sasuke and yet didn't realize her strength until _after_ he saw her actually hit something.



I'll concede to this point. 



FlamingRain said:


> when people have approached him he has responded with Susano'o and he doesn't know Tsunade will be able to break through to him.



He approached Danzo that way, in the kage summit he has numerous panels fighting outside of susanoo before using it. I'm sure he'd have no issue sizing up Tsunade using your claim that he womt use Amaterasu and enhancing her in cqc becsuse that's very IC for sasuke. His sharingan and the speed he has himself should let him get a glimpse at Tsunades strength, she's bound to miss a kick or punch and show him that he needs to be cautious. 

Again different measures for different people as well, he used the susanoo against the raikage to save from being hurt to badly via Raiger Bomb. Before that there was no susanoo and after he only had it up for insurance towards the raikages speed. I get what you're saying but sasuke has no need to hold susanoo up against Tsunade, especially when he can opt for something that'll put her down and he doesn't always throw up susanoo when approached.


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## Azula (Aug 28, 2019)

As per war arc Tsunade can shrug off flames so Amaterasu is useless. She will heal any damage.

Arrows are also useless, she wil take them out her body and throw it back at Sasuke. (The same way she threw Madara's sword right back at him)

So it comes down to breaking through Susanoo which is smaller and thus weaker than Madara's. She could summon Katsuyu (also immune to flames or arrows) and weaken it by acid attacks and then repeatedly attack it.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Zero890 (Aug 28, 2019)

Samael said:


> Sasuke is shown using Ama freely before that fight and unless it's been said by the OP that this is specifically the Danzo fight sasuke I don't know why you're ignoring previous encounters.



In previous encounters Sasuke used Amaterasu almost at the end of the fight: 


Against Bee, that was his trump card.
In the five Kage summit, the battle had several events before he used Ama: Jugo was defeated, Cee was Genjutsu'd by him, Suigetsu was defeated and he recivied the liger bomb.

Tell me if I am missing something but for now I have not seen Amaterasu be his first move.


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## Zero890 (Aug 28, 2019)

Azula said:


> As per war arc Tsunade can shrug off flames so Amaterasu is useless. She will heal any damage.



True, this can _potentially _counter Amaterasu. I am not sure completely.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Ishmael (Aug 28, 2019)

Zero890 said:


> In previous encounters Sasuke used Amaterasu almost at the end of the fight:
> 
> 
> Against Bee, that was his trump card.
> ...



I've acknowledged that and I also gave my reasons as to why those little skirmishes aren't going to help determine the use of ama here. My whole point is it'll be used, rather he chooses to pull it out during the end, middle or start is up in the air but it'll be used. He doesn't need it to win so eh.


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## Ishmael (Aug 28, 2019)

Zero890 said:


> True, this can _potentially _counter Amaterasu. I am not sure completely.



I hope you're both playing around


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## Maverick04 (Aug 28, 2019)

Samael said:


> I hope you're both playing around


Good ol' Sannin fanclub circle jerking

Reactions: Like 1


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## Azula (Aug 28, 2019)

Zero890 said:


> True, this can _potentially _counter Amaterasu. I am not sure completely.



Amaterasu>regular fire in strength but is still much the same. It has also been pushed off few times so the same counter would work on it.


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## Zero890 (Aug 28, 2019)

Samael said:


> He doesn't need it to win so eh



For me Kirin is his only option to defeat her besides Amaterasu.



Samael said:


> I hope you're both playing around



Nope, Tsunade on panel managed to deflect Madara's flames. But as I said, im not sure.


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## BlackHeartedImp (Aug 28, 2019)

Tsunade swatting amaterasu is... interesting. In the first place, it spawns on its target so it's not like she's going to see it coming. She's not as fast as Ay so she can't dodge it, and removing it means losing a limb and having to regrow it. Contrary to popular belief, she's only "immortal" so far as having enough chakra to sustain herself. If she runs out, she very well can die. She's got large enough amounts to keep at it, but she's going to run out eventually due to amaterasu burning away at her or, if she amputates herself, expending chakra to regenerate. 

Notice what Ay says to her and how _she does not refute it_. Tsunade can be exhausted if she just decides to tank everything, which leaves her open to being killed any number of ways once auto-heal gets turned off (not to mention she's actively shortening her lifespan, forcing her cells to heal and regenerate beyond the norm).

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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 28, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> No. Suigetsu knows Sasuke well and still considered an Oro that still hadn't gotten back his hand seals a threat to Sasuke *even with Ems*.
> The sannin are on the same tier as Ms sasuke and a tier above hebi.
> Hebi Sasuke gets that on by any sannin


Nah. I don’t think so. The only Sanin that stands a good chance against Sasuke with MS is Orochimaru with Edo Tensei.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 28, 2019)

Sasuke bitch slaps her youthful appearance off her . 
Low to mid diff.


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## Azula (Aug 29, 2019)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> Tsunade swatting amaterasu is... interesting. In the first place, it spawns on its target so it's not like she's going to see it coming



Amaterasu spawning is irrelevant because the only point relevant here is that Tsunade can force the flames off her body even after they have made contact. The method by which flames travel is not relevant. Madara's fire burnt her skin after making contact with her.


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed* *Link Removed*





*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*




The two situation aren't any different once the flames have landed. Tsunade sees it on her body and throws it off.

Her skin will get burnt but she will heal from it.

As for lasting long, Sasuke too would have to keep fighting long enough that she reaches the point of exhaustion.

Tsunade had fought so long she had broken off two v3 Susanoo swords and was sending a 3rd one flying away. From what Raikage said the fighting was going for too long and it was only the end of the fight was shown.


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## Francyst (Aug 29, 2019)

Why do people keep bringing up Tsunade batting away Madara's fireball as if all elemental ninjutsu have the same form.

This is like saying if someone can block Water Dragon they can block Tobirama's Severing Wave

Reactions: Like 2


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 29, 2019)

Francyst said:


> Why do people keep bringing up Tsunade batting away Madara's fireball as if all elemental ninjutsu have the same form.
> 
> This is like saying if someone can block Water Dragon they can block Tobirama's Severing Wave



To be fair though, Katons aren’t physical solids that anyone should be able to bat with their fists. But Tsunade still achieved this. Whether they’re balls of fire or blasts of lightning or globs of water, Tsunade should be able to bat them away.

There’s only some things I can think of that this might not work on eg. a giant wall of fire/water (too big), Amaterasu (it would stick to her hands and spread) and pressurised attacks like Severing Wave, Raiton pencil or Rasenshuriken.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ishmael (Aug 29, 2019)

Zero890 said:


> Nope, Tsunade on panel managed to deflect Madara's flames. But as I said, im not sure.



I doubt she'll swat Amaterasu, it spawns on target and it's never been shown to be deflected. A4 had on a layer of raiton armor and still needed to cut a limb to deal with Amaterasu. Oral rebirth was needed to deal with it, izanagi was needed by obito and danzo to deal with it as well. 

This isn't some basic fire tech that can be batted away and it's one that can be controlled.

Tsunade doesn't appear to be batting anything away in that panel but tanking, In no way is she tanking something that killed danzo in seconds once the intensity of the flames was increased.


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## Speedyamell (Aug 29, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Nah. I don’t think so. The only Sanin that stands a good chance against Sasuke with MS is Orochimaru with Edo Tensei.


Nah.. it was an *Armless Oro *that suigetsu considered a threat for sasuke. Armless Oro is below tsunade.
Ms sasuke is not hugely above the sannin


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## Architect (Aug 29, 2019)

Lightning techniques would wreck Tsunade.
Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi would wreck Tsunade.


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## Speedyamell (Aug 29, 2019)

Azula said:


> Amaterasu spawning is irrelevant because the only point relevant here is that Tsunade can force the flames off her body even after they have made contact. The method by which flames travel is not relevant. Madara's fire burnt her skin after making contact with her.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


Also.. this.


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## BlackHeartedImp (Aug 29, 2019)

Azula said:


> Amaterasu spawning is irrelevant because the only point relevant here is that Tsunade can force the flames off her body even after they have made contact. The method by which flames travel is not relevant. Madara's fire burnt her skin after making contact with her.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


This is nonsense. She can physically see the fireballs and jumped to intercept them. That's not happening with amaterasu, she's going to be standing one second and then being charred the next. 

What Tsunade supposedly did also doesn't line up with how that fight played out, considering she didn't just bat away his majestic destroyer flame when they got dunked into the deep forest bloom. She *deflected* his fireballs, it's not like she just grabbed the flames and threw them away. The anime also had an interesting visual where she can be seen having coated her arms in chakra to do so, which makes sense.

Sasuke had just run through the kage gauntlet in that panel and was fighting respawns, he's not short on stamina by any means, that whole fights plan was for him to outlast Danzo, which he did. He also had enough stamina left to engage Kakashi, take a swing at Sakura, and clash jutsu with Naruto. The advantage he has in this fight is that he's not going to have expend as much energy as Tsunade is to keep regenerating. Amaterasu doesn't cost anything to maintain, and we've seen him use it multiple times in succession. He can also just coat his susanoo in it, so she gets lit up anytime she tries to hit him like Ay did.


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## Ishmael (Aug 29, 2019)

Sakura lover and flaming rain are the only ones that save this camp from looking pitiful lol, some of the worst debaters come from this little crew and I'm not even joking.


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## Santoryu (Aug 29, 2019)

Maverick04 said:


> Good ol' Sannin fanclub circle jerking



*Sannin Band


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## Ishmael (Aug 29, 2019)

Now that I think about it in that worse debaters thread some of that camp were reoccurring names being brought up in there


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## Santoryu (Aug 29, 2019)




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## Speedyamell (Aug 29, 2019)

Samael said:


> Sakura lover and flaming rain are the only ones that save this camp from looking pitiful lol, some of the worst debaters come from this little crew and I'm not even joking.





Samael said:


> Now that I think about it in that worse debaters thread some of that camp were reoccurring names being brought up in there


That moment when you can't make a valid argument/counter-argument and have to resort to posting garbage that has nothing to do with the discussion..


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## Azula (Aug 29, 2019)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> This is nonsense. She can physically see the fireballs and jumped to intercept them. That's not happening with amaterasu, she's going to be standing one second and then being charred the next.



So? She can act when the flames spawn on her body. It is not late too act then as you keep saying.



BlackHeartedImp said:


> What Tsunade supposedly did also doesn't line up with how that fight played out, considering she didn't just bat away his majestic destroyer flame when they got dunked into the deep forest bloom. She *deflected* his fireballs, it's not like she just grabbed the flames and threw them away. The anime also had an interesting visual where she can be seen having coated her arms in chakra to do so, which makes sense.



A lot of Madara's fire techs are far too big and they already had Mei to deal with it. The last one was near human size and so is amaterasu when it appears initially.

Amaterasu gets deflected the same and it poses no threat. She can coat her body in chakra if that's what it takes. Does amaterasu appearing early on her body prevent her from pushing out chakra from her body? No.

If manga physics say flames can be swatted away by Tsunade then she can do it.



BlackHeartedImp said:


> Sasuke had just run through the kage gauntlet in that panel and was fighting respawns, he's not short on stamina by any means, that whole fights plan was for him to outlast Danzo, which he did. He also had enough stamina left to engage Kakashi, take a swing at Sakura, and clash jutsu with Naruto. The advantage he has in this fight is that he's not going to have expend as much energy as Tsunade is to keep regenerating. Amaterasu doesn't cost anything to maintain, and we've seen him use it multiple times in succession.



Amaterasu and Susanoo take put strain on Sasuke. We never saw Tsunade struggling to recover from a deep cut, as long as Byakugo is active she doesn't struggle. She only falls when she is empty on chakra.



BlackHeartedImp said:


> He can also just coat his susanoo in it, so she gets lit up anytime she tries to hit him like Ay did.



He gets drowned in acid then, ribcage is too weak to protect him from Katsuyu's acid.


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## Speedyamell (Aug 29, 2019)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> This is nonsense. She can physically see the fireballs and jumped to intercept them. That's not happening with amaterasu, she's going to be standing one second and then being charred the next.
> 
> What Tsunade supposedly did also doesn't line up with how that fight played out, considering she didn't just bat away his majestic destroyer flame when they got dunked into the deep forest bloom. She *deflected* his fireballs, it's not like she just grabbed the flames and threw them away. The anime also had an interesting visual where she can be seen having coated her arms in chakra to do so, which makes sense.
> 
> Sasuke had just run through the kage gauntlet in that panel and was fighting respawns, he's not short on stamina by any means, that whole fights plan was for him to outlast Danzo, which he did. He also had enough stamina left to engage Kakashi, take a swing at Sakura, and clash jutsu with Naruto. The advantage he has in this fight is that he's not going to have expend as much energy as Tsunade is to keep regenerating. Amaterasu doesn't cost anything to maintain, and we've seen him use it multiple times in succession. He can also just coat his susanoo in it, so she gets lit up anytime she tries to hit him like Ay did.


No. It's not. The point is that tsunade was burned by the flames. Meaning they weren't batted as soon as they came, which would mean she batted them off of her. That's what will happen with amaterasu.

And tsunade's stamina makes sasuke's look like shit. A few burns would make but a blip in her reserves. Especially when she can summon katsuyu to counter it after experiencing it once.

Sasuke coating his susanoo with Ama won't save him. He is going to die if she hits it before she has to worry about the burns.

Danzo fight sasuke, who had gotten stronger, and possesses more powerful variants of susanoo to help him better defend from tsunade's hits, as well as being much more tactical than he was when he first started fighting at fks, could high diff tsunade.
But amaterasu is not the end all be all, and previous versions like the one that fought Ay or bee, would loose to tsunade.

Reactions: Like 1


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## BlackHeartedImp (Aug 29, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> Nah.. it was an *Armless Oro *that suigetsu considered a threat for sasuke. Armless Oro is below tsunade.
> Ms sasuke is not hugely above the sannin


Suigetsu was terrified of Orochimaru from the start. It's not like he knew much about EMS Sasuke, either. He was trying to run away, as a matter of fact.


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## BlackHeartedImp (Aug 29, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> No. It's not. The point is that tsunade was burned by the flames. Meaning they weren't batted as soon as they came, which would mean she batted them off of her. That's what will happen with amaterasu.
> 
> And tsunade's stamust makes sasuke's look like shit. A few burns would make a blip in her reserves. Especially when she can summon katsuyu to counter and after experiencing it once.
> 
> ...


Danzo fight Sasuke is exactly who I'm arguing for. Anyhow, are you saying she batted the flames after they latched onto her? Cuz I'd have to disagree, she swung at them with her arms and got burned from minimal contact is what I'm seeing. Amaterasu burns a lot hotter and is going to cause more damage each time she swings at it (if she even has the ability to do so consistently). 

I'm stiil struggling to see what Katsuyu does in that specific instance. She can split apart, which is helpful, but makes her useless as an offensive weapon. Her acid could kill him... Or he could just dodge it. I always got the feeling Oro was saying he'd let Katsuyu barf on him instead of her being able to outright kill him


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## FlamingRain (Aug 29, 2019)

Samael said:


> We won't go anywhere if you're only going to address the Danzo fight. Sasuke is shown using Ama freely before that fight and unless it's been said by the OP that this is specifically the Danzo fight sasuke I don't know why you're ignoring previous encounters.



Danzō-fight Sasuke is peak MS Sasuke and so the one referred to by default. He wasn't that different in the rest of the Kage Summit anyway once he got Susano'o.



> He approached Danzo that way, in the kage summit he has numerous panels fighting outside of susanoo before using it.



Because he didn't have it the entire time he was running the Kage gauntlet.

After he unlocked it he:

Tried to block Raikage with it before anything further
Blocked Mei with it before anything else
Blocked Chōjurō with it before anything else
Blocked Danzō with it before anything else
In at least the latter three cases he could have tried a different tactic. He was obviously fond of showcasing his new ability by blocking with it and then retaliating. Doesn't need to be something he's done every single time, just often enough.



> I'm sure he'd have no issue sizing up Tsunade using your claim that he womt use Amaterasu and enhancing her in cqc becsuse that's very IC for sasuke.



That's more lC for Hebi Sasuke, not MS Sasuke. Tsunade missing a kick or punch would only reveal her strength if she wound up striking the ground. She's not aiming for more than one person here, nor will any real chase have started yet.


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## MaruUchiha (Aug 29, 2019)

Blu-ray said:


> Not sure why people are making it out to be some sort of spite to be honest. Sasuke's opening move against Danzo was to block his punch with a ribcage Susanoo'o. If he tries that shit against Tsunade, he's getting serious injuries if not getting killed outright.


Sasuke was trying to get an answer from Danzo he wasn't even trying to fight yet, what kind of antifeat is this?


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 29, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> Nah.. it was an *Armless Oro *that suigetsu considered a threat for sasuke. Armless Oro is below tsunade.
> Ms sasuke is not hugely above the sannin


That’s it really relevant. What’s relevant are his feats. MS Sasuke is decisively above the Sannin sans Orochimaru with Edo Tensei.


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## Turrin (Aug 29, 2019)

I think the fight really depends on if Orochimaru schooled Sasuke on Tsunade abilities otherwise it’s kind of anyone’s game. I think it’s unfair to talk about Sasuke ability to one-shot Tsunade with Enron/Amaterasu if he doesn’t have knowledge, but then disregard the fact that Sasuke could easily be one-shot by Tsunade strength without knowledge of it; simply by pulling the exact same tactics he used throughout the Kage relying on Rib-cage Susanoo to defend him which Tsunade no sells.

I also don’t agree with the assertion that Sasuke is above the Sannin. Sasuke would loose to Orochimaru with Edo Tensei period; as he has no counter to the Tensei. And we saw his ass get raped even with EMS with sound based Techs so it’s not like Jiraiya can’t win. And I already outlined how Tsunade can. Logically these fights are close and come down to knowledge; and tactics employed. So even if I place MS Sasuke a bit higher then the Sannin the idea that he’s a whole level above is just not right IMO.


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## Femme (Aug 29, 2019)

weegee22 said:


> Oh, you really have no clue how screwed Tsunade really is.


He was only confident in defeating WA tsuande who was mummified


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## Azula (Aug 29, 2019)

Samael said:


> I doubt she'll swat Amaterasu, it spawns on target and it's never been shown to be deflected.



By that logic Tsunade has never been shown to be burnt by amaterasu so she won't be burnt by it?

Also Amaterasu _*has *_been deflected, it was deflected by ST. Amaterasu doesn't come with a superglue.



Samael said:


> A4 had on a layer of raiton armor and still needed to cut a limb to deal with Amaterasu. Oral rebirth was needed to deal with it, izanagi was needed by obito and danzo to deal with it as well.



A4, Hebi Sasuke, Obito and Danzo do not have Tsunade's super strength, they cannot do what she can.

This is irrelevant.

Itachi was burnt by Hebi Sasuke's regular fire, he cannot do what Tsunade can do which is use her strength to swat away fire.

Why are you telling us what other characters cannot do?



Samael said:


> This isn't some basic fire tech that can be batted away and it's one that can be controlled.



Amaterasu shares characteristics with regular fire, it consumes wind jutsu just like a regular fire, it can be absorbed by preta path just like regular fire, it is made up of chakra just like regular fire. It comes in flames juts like regular fire. The only difference is that it doesn't extinguish easily with water so lasts long.

Controlling Amaatersu is limiting to extinguishing it, how is that supposed to be helpful?



Samael said:


> Tsunade doesn't appear to be batting anything away



Look closely, she is very obviously swatting away fire from her hands.

Reactions: Like 1


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## BlackHeartedImp (Aug 29, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I think the fight really depends on if Orochimaru schooled Sasuke on Tsunade abilities otherwise it’s kind of anyone’s game. I think it’s unfair to talk about Sasuke ability to one-shot Tsunade with Enron/Amaterasu if he doesn’t have knowledge, but then disregard the fact that Sasuke could easily be one-shot by Tsunade strength without knowledge of it; simply by pulling the exact same tactics he used throughout the Kage relying on Rib-cage Susanoo to defend him which Tsunade no sells.
> 
> I also don’t agree with the assertion that Sasuke is above the Sannin. Sasuke would loose to Orochimaru with Edo Tensei period; as he has no counter to the Tensei. And we saw his ass get raped even with EMS with sound based Techs so it’s not like Jiraiya can’t win. And I already outlined how Tsunade can. Logically these fights are close and come down to knowledge; and tactics employed. So even if I place MS Sasuke a bit higher then the Sannin the idea that he’s a whole level above is just not right IMO.


I don't disagree with most of this, just that the situation with EMS Sasuke and sound tech is a lot different. Jiraiya's gonna have a hell of a time trying to set up anything with ma and Pa compared to SM Kabuto.


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## t0xeus (Aug 29, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> Nah.. it was an *Armless Oro *that suigetsu considered a threat for sasuke. Armless Oro is below tsunade.
> Ms sasuke is not hugely above the sannin


Suigetsu that saw Sasuke last time fighting against Ay

He doesn't know shit about current Sasuke


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## Symmetry (Aug 29, 2019)

Is this even a question?


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## Sufex (Aug 29, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Is this even a question?


Im genuinely unsure which side you're even on here


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## JayK (Aug 29, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Is this even a question?


The amount of responses suggest yes.


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## Ishmael (Aug 29, 2019)

Azula said:


> Also Amaterasu _*has *_been deflected, it was deflected by ST. Amaterasu doesn't come with a superglue.



It wasn't deflected but pushed off off him via gravitational manipulation, deflecting something is changing it's course, ama had already found and landed on its course nagato simply blew it off. Tsunade doesn't have Shinra tensei and her tanking basic flames isn't indication of her being able to deflect attacks. 

Give me a minute please...


Speedyamell said:


> That moment when you can't make a valid argument/counter-argument and have to resort to posting garbage that has nothing to do with the discussion..




Yet you see me doing it countless times in this thread, lol shut up and watch me work on the sidelines little buddy. 



Azula said:


> By that logic Tsunade has never been shown to be burnt by amaterasu so she won't be burnt by it?



Name one person that's deflected Amaterasu meaning they've sent it in a different direction....... name one object in the narutoverse that's done so.. I'll wait. 



Azula said:


> A4, Hebi Sasuke, Obito and Danzo do not have Tsunade's super strength, they cannot do what she can.



What does super strength have to do with Tsunade dealing with Amaterasu? You suggesting she punches ama and sends it flying? Will she stomp the ground and make the flames shake and go away? No. Why because it can't be done and won't happen. 



Azula said:


> This is irrelevant.



Yet you're arguing thar Tsunade strength will help her against Amaterasu...well  I'll be damned we got us a 



Azula said:


> Itachi was burnt by Hebi Sasuke's regular fire, he cannot do what Tsunade can do which is use her strength to swat away fire.



Tsunade was burnt via madaras flames as well she simply tanked them due to her seal.... do you not see the on her skin? She even says "Guh" indicating pain being dealt in the panel. 



Azula said:


> The only difference is that it doesn't extinguish easily with water so lasts long.



Water can't put the flame out, read the manga. 



Azula said:


> Look closely, she is very obviously swatting away fire from her hands.



She's tanking it which is why she has the burn marks and indicates she's in pain by saying "Guh"...


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## Symmetry (Aug 29, 2019)

Sufex said:


> Im genuinely unsure which side you're even on here




MS sasuke lol


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## Ishmael (Aug 29, 2019)

FlamingRain said:


> Danzō-fight Sasuke is peak MS Sasuke and so the one referred to by default. He wasn't that different in the rest of the Kage Summit anyway once he got Susano'o.



By default?  So if I make a thread SM Naruto vs Tsunade you'll automatically assume I'm referring to WA Naruto? Or would you ask for clarification. 



FlamingRain said:


> Because he didn't have it the entire time he was running the Kage gauntlet.
> 
> After he unlocked it he:



You went on to list circumstantial situations. 



FlamingRain said:


> Tried to block Raikage with it before anything further



Due to his speed and inability to follow his movements fully. 



FlamingRain said:


> Blocked Mei with it before anything else



Was on E chakra wise and had to protect himself against the acid mist/lava.



FlamingRain said:


> Blocked Chōjurō with it before anything else



Was on E can't give specifics because I don't recall chojuros moment in the FKS. 



FlamingRain said:


> Blocked Danzō with it before anything else



Still circumstantial, he's seen combating as I said before pulling out susanoo, he can fight without it is my point and yes it'll eventually come out but I don't think he just shoots for it outright. Which is what you're suggesting. The moments you gave are him after holding it up for a period of time due to reasons that Tsunade won't give or replicate so why would he camp in susanoo vs her again? 



FlamingRain said:


> That's more lC for Hebi Sasuke, not MS Sasuke. Tsunade missing a kick or punch would only reveal her strength if she wound up striking the ground. She's not aiming for more than one person here, nor will any real chase have started yet.



Agree to disagree, imo he still has the taticsl ability, he showed so when towards the end of the Danzo fight he was observing his eyes and creating the illusions to counter what he'd observed.


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## weegee22 (Aug 29, 2019)

Azula said:


> By that logic Tsunade has never been shown to be burnt by amaterasu so she won't be burnt by it?
> 
> Also Amaterasu _*has *_been deflected, it was deflected by ST. Amaterasu doesn't come with a superglue.
> 
> ...


You're forgetting that the instant Sasuke spawns Amaterasu, he can immediately spread it with Kagutsuchi. Also, Shinra Tensei isn't a physical attack and expels a force from the entire body. For what it did to Amaterasu, it's not that dissimilar to Naruto's chakra cloak negging Amaterasu. You can't do that with a punch, especially when Amaterasu easily spreads especially with Kagutsuchi on top.

@Femme 

Tell me EXACTLY how Tsunade stands a chance. 

She has no counter to Amaterasu + Kagutsuchi, v3 Susano'o, fast af Susano'o arrows which were too fast for even Kakashi to dodge, Sasuke's vastly superior combat speed and that he can fly with his hawk summon.


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## Ishmael (Aug 29, 2019)

@JayK You deadass wrong for this thread and you know it.


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## Sufex (Aug 29, 2019)

weegee22 said:


> @Femme
> 
> Tell me EXACTLY how Tsunade stands a chance.


Oh god...


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## Santoryu (Aug 29, 2019)

weegee22 said:


> @Femme
> 
> Tell me EXACTLY how Tsunade stands a chance.
> 
> She has no counter to Amaterasu + Kagutsuchi, v3 Susano'o, fast af Susano'o arrows which were too fast for even Kakashi to dodge, Sasuke's vastly superior combat speed and that he can fly with his hawk summon.


To gain a accurate precise perspective of Sūnade's Power gotta read the presumed DB's. All Chill & set they.

Shit like_ "God Sky Comet dropping like utter shit on humanity" e_xists statement form. The general grasp of Japnese or generally Kishi's contexture grammaticality implication's would be _utter shit_ by the fu_c_king WaYne.

Grasping elementalities like fictional verbiose pertaining Narūto'd no'll be that key of unravel the incessant disgustingly brain-savvy detrimentalities, intrinsically linked extricebilities, of Manga.

Don't say hyperbole when you're met with brain breaking intelllectualities. That's dat key.

Hyperbole? Sorry bitch there's no hyperfuckingf_u_ck(b_a_ll)bole here. Straight up none like.

Deal with it.

When you're met with a certain statement grammatically you don't wanna generate that brain IQ on elementally synthesiZe or wanna exude that literally explicitly taint like hyperbole you don't wanna deal fucking wit-it what do you do?

You clinically cry hyperball'Z. Fuck off, fam that's not how it works. That's straight up na how it works, like really.

I'd explicitly elucidate a specific degree.

WA Bee= WA Sūna B (W/O Hyakūgo)

Not sure how B-boost's stack's. Gotta bypass mo research & less (reality) TV.

Anything else I'd implicitly see explicit IQ glib retarded derangement. I'd explicitly strike a period on dat pierce elucidate insightfully.

Jane.


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## Turrin (Aug 29, 2019)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> I don't disagree with most of this, just that the situation with EMS Sasuke and sound tech is a lot different. Jiraiya's gonna have a hell of a time trying to set up anything with ma and Pa compared to SM Kabuto.


Which is why Jiraiya can actually loose to MS Sasuke, while Kabuto rapes him


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## BlackHeartedImp (Aug 29, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Which is why Jiraiya can actually loose to MS Sasuke, while Kabuto rapes him


Nothing to disagree over then.


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## Femme (Aug 29, 2019)

weegee22 said:


> You're forgetting that the instant Sasuke spawns Amaterasu, he can immediately spread it with Kagutsuchi. Also, Shinra Tensei isn't a physical attack and expels a force from the entire body. For what it did to Amaterasu, it's not that dissimilar to Naruto's chakra cloak negging Amaterasu. You can't do that with a punch, especially when Amaterasu easily spreads especially with Kagutsuchi on top.
> 
> @Femme
> 
> ...


She uses her chakra enhanced strength to brute the flames always from her like she did with Madara a , like Nagato did with Shinra tensi. 
Also Amaterasu weakens him, it leaves him open for a finishing blow. Karin survived it, bee survived it, etc.

Tsuande shanarooos v3 susanoo, she was only slightly slower than the raikage, and we wouldn’t even think this if Madara didn’t say anything , they were keeping up with each other .

Kakashi isn’t that great, her reflexes are sharper. She canonically reacted at the speed of light. 
Her one paneling Shizune, we didn’t even see her attack. ( who was more or less the same speed as kakashi) byakugou tsunade isn’t that far from Ay I’m speed , look at the feats . 

Flying means running away


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 29, 2019)

Francyst said:


> Why do people keep bringing up Tsunade batting away Madara's fireball as if all elemental ninjutsu have the same form.
> 
> This is like saying if someone can block Water Dragon they can block Tobirama's Severing Wave





Beware Trolls | Do Not Feed​


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## Omote (Aug 29, 2019)

5 pages for genjutsu gg

Classic NBD


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## Kisaitaparadise (Aug 29, 2019)

Chidori


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## Maverick04 (Aug 29, 2019)

Looking at the number of pages in this post..


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## BlackHeartedImp (Aug 29, 2019)

Femme said:


> She uses her chakra enhanced strength to brute the flames always from her like she did with Madara a , like Nagato did with Shinra tensi.
> Also Amaterasu weakens him, it leaves him open for a finishing blow. Karin survived it, bee survived it, etc.
> 
> Tsuande shanarooos v3 susanoo, she was only slightly slower than the raikage, and we wouldn’t even think this if Madara didn’t say anything , they were keeping up with each other .
> ...


The speed of light 
You're officially my favorite poster.


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## Alucardemi (Aug 30, 2019)

The reason for Tsunade being able to deflect Great Dragon Fire Technique seems to be that the jutsu has a sizable component of spatial manipulation. That's why something like a Rasengan has a solid surface that can be interacted with despite being pure chakra, which largely works like a plasma (such as fire). Since the shape's contained as a dragon's, that ought to give the projectile enough resistance on its surface to be pushed away, as it's trying to maintain its shape. If she tried to flick Amaterasu off her body, all that would happen is that the fire would part and engulf her hand, as there's no tensile surface to push against and drag it away (it's a plasma).


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## Speedyamell (Aug 30, 2019)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> Suigetsu was terrified of Orochimaru from the start. It's not like he knew much about EMS Sasuke, either. He was trying to run away, as a matter of fact.


Suigetsu in like his first scene was revealed to have been planning to kill Oro.. (apparently because he was aware of his dire illness and sealed arms),
And he was one of the characters that knew Ms Sasuke the best and yet still considered orochimaru without his arms a threat to sasuke. Which further reinstates the fact that Ms sasuke is not hugely above the sannin. Surpassing them with minimal difference at best.


Lee-Sensei said:


> That’s it really relevant. What’s relevant are his feats. MS Sasuke is decisively above the Sannin sans Orochimaru with Edo Tensei.


Your opinion and interpretation of feats is not definitive. Suigetsu knows Sasuke well enough for his thoughts to matter in the situation and it directly contradicts the idea that Ms Sasuke is above the sannin by some huge margin.


t0xeus said:


> Suigetsu that saw Sasuke last time fighting against Ay
> 
> He doesn't know shit about current Sasuke


It's not current sasuke that is being discussed here though is it?
Even if the Sasuke suigetsu was referring to was the one that fought Ay, that would still mean an Armless Oro was a threat to that Sasuke.
Meaning Ms Sasuke(pre danzo fight) is at best ≥ armless Oro who is far inferior to an Oro that actually has access to his ninjutsu.


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## t0xeus (Aug 30, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> Suigetsu in like his first scene was revealed to have been planning to kill Oro.. (apparently because he was aware of his dire illness and sealed arms),
> And he was one of the characters that knew Ms Sasuke the best and yet still considered orochimaru without his arms a threat to sasuke. Which further reinstates the fact that Ms sasuke is not hugely above the sannin. Surpassing them with minimal difference at best.
> 
> Your opinion and interpretation of feats is not definitive. Suigetsu knows Sasuke well enough for his thoughts to matter in the situation and it directly contradicts the idea that Ms Sasuke is above the sannin by some huge margin.
> ...


You think the gap between Healthy Orochimaru and armless Orochimaru is bigger than between Raikage fight MS Sasuke and EMS Sasuke?


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## Speedyamell (Aug 30, 2019)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> Danzo fight Sasuke is exactly who I'm arguing for.


Yes. I conceded that she's more likely to loose against this version(and not because ama is somehow an immiedate game ender.) But that she would trash previous versions.



BlackHeartedImp said:


> Anyhow, are you saying she batted the flames after they latched onto her? Cuz I'd have to disagree, she swung at them with her arms and got burned from minimal contact is what I'm seeing. Amaterasu burns a lot hotter and is going to cause more damage each time she swings at it (if she even has the ability to do so consistently).


You were trying to imply that because she is not fast enough, she can't swat away the flames(amaterasu) after they touch her since they are already on her. And I pointed out the fact that tsunade still suffering severe burns even against flames that she appeared to slap away almost instantly, means that her skin spent some time in contact with the flames before she actually blasted them away, therefore indicating that she can still blow away amaterasu even if she's not fast enough to outright react.

And she doesn't need to do it more than once since katsuyu is a better option, and likely comes out after she experiences it once



BlackHeartedImp said:


> I'm stiil struggling to see what Katsuyu does in that specific instance. She can split apart, which is helpful, but makes her useless as an offensive weapon. Her acid could kill him... Or he could just dodge it.


She is a giant ass slug that can split..
Sasuke's is not going to have a field day tagging tsunade with ama further with a big slug that can split into more big slugs around to block Los. When said slug can also counter ama by shedding off affected parts, and also possesses acid that is still a threat to enton coated susanoo. And Ms sasuke is not very mobile with susanoo active iirc



BlackHeartedImp said:


> I always got the feeling Oro was saying he'd let Katsuyu barf on him instead of her being able to outright kill him


Nah. He was making a scenario. And if he actually had ill intentions, he won't just let katsuyu tag him.. he was reassuring/putting Katsuyu at rest with the fact that she can actually kill him if he tries sth. And katsuyu wouldn't have agreed if there was like zero chance of landing the acid


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## Speedyamell (Aug 30, 2019)

t0xeus said:


> You think the gap between Healthy Orochimaru and armless Orochimaru is bigger than between Raikage fight MS Sasuke and EMS Sasuke?


No. It is as big if not bigger than the Gap between raikage fight sasuke and danzo fight sasuke


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## t0xeus (Aug 30, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> No. It is as big if not bigger than the Gap between raikage fight sasuke and danzo fight sasuke


Oh I see how you mean it

Yeah you're prolly right about that


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## BlackHeartedImp (Aug 30, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> Yes. I conceded that she's more likely to loose against this version(and not because ama is somehow an immiedate game ender.) But that she would trash previous versions.
> 
> 
> You were trying to imply that because she is not fast enough, she can't swat away the flames(amaterasu) after they touch her since they are already on her. And I pointed out the fact that tsunade still suffering severe burns even against flames that she appeared to slap away almost instantly, means that her skin spent some time in contact with the flames before she actually blasted them away, therefore indicating that she can still blow away amaterasu even if she's not fast enough to outright react.
> ...


I wasn't implying anything to do with her speed in regards to swatting the flames. Just that amaterasu is going to burn more severely once she gets hit, forcing out more of her chakra to sustain her condition. She also can't disperse them, so they're going to be littering the battlefield and she's going to have to mind her maneuvering (like when the flames surrounded the forest around the Uchiha hideout).

Katsuyu is a decent enough point, though she hardly seems to be used offensively outside of the deadlock back in part I. I'll concede this.

I'm going to need to see the moment where Suigetsu ponders armless Orochimaru being a threat to MS Sasuke though, because I don't remember it. He freaked out when Sasuke was about to revive Oro in the war, but that would suggest he's a threat to EMS Sasuke, which is silly. Even then, Sasuke was the one who straight up beat armless/sick Orochimaru and sealed him in the first place back before he assembled Hebi.


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## Azula (Aug 31, 2019)

Samael said:


> It wasn't deflected but pushed off off him via gravitational manipulation



This is just wordplay, Nagato threw it away, pushed it away, it comes down to the same thing it is no longer on his body.



Samael said:


> Name one person that's deflected Amaterasu meaning they've sent it in a different direction....... name one object in the narutoverse that's done so..



Another example.


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*






Samael said:


> What does super strength have to do with Tsunade dealing with Amaterasu? You suggesting she punches ama and sends it flying? Will she stomp the ground and make the flames shake and go away? No. Why because it can't be done and won't happen.



How did Tsunade threw away the flames then if not with her strength?



Samael said:


> Yet you're arguing thar Tsunade strength will help her against Amaterasu...well I'll be damned we got us a



You are being dishonest or deliberately obstuse.

Tsunade's strength comes in different forms, she can lift heavy objects, kick things, elbow things. Her strength isn't limited to punching.

She can apply her strength in many ways and that's what she did. She clearly swung her hands forcefully and that's why the flames went away.



Samael said:


> Tsunade was burnt via madaras flames as well she simply tanked them due to her seal.... do you not see the on her skin? She even says "Guh" indicating pain being dealt in the panel.





Samael said:


> She's tanking it which is why she has the burn marks and indicates she's in pain by saying "Guh"...



You can see the flames going away from Tsunade in the bottom unless you are blind.



Samael said:


> Water can't put the flame out, read the manga.



I said the same thing but I guess I could have put it more clearly.[/QUOTE]

Reactions: Like 1


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## Azula (Aug 31, 2019)

Hmm I wonder why one character has to run away from fire while one character can swat it away


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed* *Link Removed*
*Link Removed*




Could it be that different characters have different abilities and they have different ways of countering attacks? 

Nah, it's just Sannin wanking!

Reactions: Like 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Aug 31, 2019)

Well its interesting people lowballing Tsunade against Sasuke while the same Sasuke schooled by each kage in the summit . Saved by Taka Members, saved by Zetsui saved by Tobi (twice) . And yet he fodderizes Tsunade who forced the GREAT Madara to bring his V3 Susano clones ?

Sasuke's defense against A4 is a death sentence against Tsunade. she can rip thru that ripcage susano and kill him. and then cut her arm and skin for amaterasu then heal back again.

I dont have any problem with the idea of Sasuke's victory against Tsunade. He is capable of doing that. But people recognizing this as a missmatch ? Its NBD acting hypocrite all over again.

People says things like "Eizox2 + Chidori gg" realy ?? I mean REAAALYY ? That woman took susano sword stab and yasaka magatama in a row in seconds and didnt bother at all ? And now Sasuke gonna kill him ? She is cleaved in half by Madara and yet she has resillience enough to live, summon large portion of katsuyu and keep her teammates alive. And yet suddenly Eizo become a threat to her ?  

Its funny. Tsunade has her own shot, and Sasuke has his. It could go to either way.

Danzo fight fed and hyped up angry V3 Susano Sasuke migh win via Susano arrows and bigger Susano (its still dangerous for him tho) But ı dont think early FKS Sasuke (Who fought against A4) could survive from Tsunade's tremendous assault.

Reactions: Like 1


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## LostSelf (Aug 31, 2019)

The moment Amaterau comes into play, it's game over. 

And the chances of Sasuke losing to her before are slim. He's faster, precog, can deal good damage with Chidori Katana that she can't block or ranged Raiton like that chidori that made a lot of holes in Itachi.

Even without Amaterasu, he is a good matchup for her considering his skillset. But Amaterasu is something she hardly can counter.


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## weegee22 (Aug 31, 2019)

False equivalence
@Azula 

Tsunade punched away fire projectiles. You can't just punch away Amaterasu which DIRECTLY ignites on the body. And again, the Naruto one is another false equivalence, his chakra cloak acted as a detachable armour. Tsunade doesn't have that.

Reactions: Like 5


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## Sufex (Aug 31, 2019)

>using two completely unrelated techniques to say what counters one will counter another
>when the techniques themselves have completely different properties
>using an instance that shows ama cant be avoided without special means to say it can be swatted away, despite the fact it spawns directly via LOS


Totally not bais guiz


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## Ishmael (Aug 31, 2019)

Azula said:


> This is just wordplay, Nagato threw it away, pushed it away, it comes down to the same thing it is no longer on his body.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]


We're just gonna chop it up like this, I provided scans, gave you the definition of what a deflection really is and all the other bs. 

We're not going to see eye to eye and I don't got time to babysit, agree to disagree.


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## Crow (Aug 31, 2019)

_Bloodlusted? _Amaterasu to the face ends this battle.


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## Grinningfox (Aug 31, 2019)

This has way too many pages


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## Azula (Aug 31, 2019)

weegee22 said:


> False equivalence
> @Azula
> 
> Tsunade punched away fire projectiles. You can't just punch away Amaterasu which DIRECTLY ignites on the body. And again, the Naruto one is another false equivalence, his chakra cloak acted as a detachable armour. Tsunade doesn't have that.



Tsunade did not "punch" them, there are 5-6 of them and she only has two fists. Her entire arm was burned so they struck her the entire length of her arm.

They were thrown away by her strength.  She swung her arms and the flames were thrown away. If you have a better explaination give it. Tsunade's strength isn't limited to her fists.

Directly igniting on her body is entirely irrelevant unless you can prove Amaterasu comes with a superglue that will prevent it from getting shaken off. Prove that Amaterasu will get stuck with superglue and resist getting shaken off.

Amaterasu can be countered in a dozen way. Every ninja has it's own unique abilities that cannot be duplicated by anyone else. Naruto did not have to detach anything though.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Devil_Jin (Aug 31, 2019)

So let me get this right basically tsunade goes super saiyan and deflects away ama with her great strength ?

And the equivalent of this is a gravity manipulator who uses his own body as the core? Seems plausible

Reactions: Like 1


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## Santoryu (Aug 31, 2019)

Amirsh said:


> So let me get this right basically tsunade goes super saiyan and deflects away ama with her great strength ?
> 
> And the equivalent of this is a gravity manipulator who uses his own body as the core? Seems plausible



i warned you about the lewdness but you didnt listen


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## Devil_Jin (Aug 31, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> i warned you about the lewdness but you didnt listen


Forgive me senpai


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## FlamingRain (Aug 31, 2019)

Azula said:


> Prove that Amaterasu will get stuck with superglue and resist getting shaken off.



What do you think of Gyuki not shaking off Amaterasu when he fought Taka?


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## Sufex (Aug 31, 2019)

FlamingRain said:


> What do you think of Gyuki not shaking off Amaterasu when he fought Taka?


He wasn't a Sannin


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## Ishmael (Aug 31, 2019)

Amirsh said:


> So let me get this right basically tsunade goes super saiyan and deflects away ama with her great strength ?
> 
> And the equivalent of this is a gravity manipulator who uses his own body as the core? Seems plausible



Yeah we got  like posters here


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## t0xeus (Aug 31, 2019)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> She is cleaved in half by Madara and yet she has resillience enough to live, summon large portion of katsuyu and keep her teammates alive.


She summons Katsuyu after Madara goes into PS imo


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## Azula (Aug 31, 2019)

FlamingRain said:


> What do you think of Gyuki not shaking off Amaterasu when he fought Taka?



Kishi already had a counter in mind for Gyuki.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Francyst (Aug 31, 2019)

FlamingRain said:


> What do you think of Gyuki not shaking off Amaterasu when he fought Taka?


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## weegee22 (Aug 31, 2019)

Azula said:


> Tsunade did not "punch" them, there are 5-6 of them and she only has two fists. Her entire arm was burned so they struck her the entire length of her arm.
> 
> They were thrown away by her strength.  She swung her arms and the flames were thrown away. If you have a better explaination give it. Tsunade's strength isn't limited to her fists.
> 
> ...



Ask 4th Raikage, Hebi Sasuke (who HAD to use Oral Rebirth just to escape), Cerberus and that samurai's armour if Amaterasu doesn't act like a superglue. 

Tsunade backhanding the fireballs was how she was able to deflect more than two, as backhanding them gives her more opportunities to knock them away. I think you seem to forget the fact that CES actually expels chakra, so Tsunade technically had a small chakra shield on her hands. So she technically didn't punch them away directly with her bare skin.


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## Symmetry (Aug 31, 2019)

While initially I thought this was pretty clear, I think I underplayed tsunade. I think I ignored that she does have ways to win and it is a possiblity  and not as unlikely as I thought.


Sasuke in MS is most likely to try and block a 100 healings amped punch or kick with ribcage susanoo. Sasuke didn’t even try and use the higher versions against the raikage. The thing is tsunade bursts through that level of susanoo easily.

Sasuke trying to block that attack with a ribcage means it’s going to both break and send him hurling towards a surface. That will do some damage. A tsunade follow up attack from this could prove to be fatal, although this is iffy.

Sasuke would the most likely amp up the susanoo, in which case Katsuyu comes out. Katsuyu poses a big threat. Amaterasu doesn’t really do anything to her since she can split apart, and the immobile susanoo would be drenched in acid by the much larger summon.

There’s no reason to assume the acid won’t work, so that’s an option.

If tsunade gets in a position to smash the full body susanoo, she can do so as well as she did against a Madara clone. That would also prove to be troublesome.

Tsunade already states she can regrow limbs, so she can sack a limb that’s hit with Amaterasu and be fine.


If Sasuke goes in Cqc against Tsuande withou knowledge on instant regen that could easily be gg. A stab into her would lead to a fatal grab, and if tsunade grabs him once that’s it.


Truths be told the only way MS Sasuke can really get rid of Katsuyu is kirin, which takes some lengthy prep and Amaterasu use.

Genjutsu could be broken with partner method, so Katsuyu is fine.

Sasuke Amaterasu slam could potentially drain tsunade’s Chakra, but considering the length of her fight with Madara, it’s entirely possible she outlasts his Amaterasu spam.


I selled tsunade way too short here early.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ishmael (Aug 31, 2019)

Disagree, funny, optimistic..


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## Symmetry (Aug 31, 2019)

Samael said:


> Disagree, funny, optimistic..




The last two are great qualities.


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## JayK (Aug 31, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> The last two are great qualities.


Not in the NBD.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Santoryu (Aug 31, 2019)

Samael said:


> Disagree, funny, optimistic..



you can add lewd to that


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## X III (Aug 31, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> While initially I thought this was pretty clear, I think I underplayed tsunade. I think I ignored that she does have ways to win and it is a possiblity and not as unlikely as I thought.


Nah, she gets wrecked. Like, it's an actual stomp. Not even close.



Orochimaru op said:


> Sasuke in MS is most likely to try and block a 100 healings amped punch or kick with ribcage susanoo. Sasuke didn’t even try and use the higher versions against the raikage. The thing is tsunade bursts through that level of susanoo easily.


No, he flat out COULDN'T use higher states of Susanoo against the Raikage because he didn't HAVE them at that time.

You'd also have to be pretty hypocritical to use this as an argument for Sasuke while to conveniently try to pretend that Tsunade starts all her fights off with 100 Healings.



Orochimaru op said:


> Sasuke trying to block that attack with a ribcage means it’s going to both break and send him hurling towards a surface. That will do some damage. A tsunade follow up attack from this could prove to be fatal, although this is iffy.


No, it won't be happening in the first place. And you'd literally have to ignore a good portion of Sasuke's arsenal to even say that Tsunade can do anything to him in a follow up.



Orochimaru op said:


> Sasuke would the most likely amp up the susanoo, in which case Katsuyu comes out. Katsuyu poses a big threat. Amaterasu doesn’t really do anything to her since she can split apart, and the immobile susanoo would be drenched in acid by the much larger summon.


No, he can literally ignore Katsuyu altogether and one-shot Tsunade with Ama.

Even if Katsuyu comes out, Amaterasu is indeed a GG because it will spread around the battlefield and envelope all her parts.



Orochimaru op said:


> the immobile susanoo would be drenched in acid by the much larger summon.


Susanoo isn't immobile. The user can  while inside it.



Orochimaru op said:


> There’s no reason to assume the acid won’t work, so that’s an option.


Yeah there is. Sasuke's Susanoo  and emerged .



Orochimaru op said:


> If tsunade gets in a position to smash the full body susanoo, she can do so as well as she did against a Madara clone. That would also prove to be troublesome.


No. If a full body Susanoo is formed then Tsunade's screwed. It'll require her   to actually  the thing and if it grabs a hold of her it's a . It also has a  AND an ONTOP of the skeleton (which will already take a while for Tsunade to break on its own). Not to mention, it can screw her over by  in order to wear her out and Sasuke can simply and , which you haven't even properly addressed in your post despite it being the most viable option for him.

If what it takes to make an argument for Tsunade in your post is to literally ignore half of Sasuke's abilities and assume that he'll fight like a moron while Tsunade fights just like how you want her to, then she's probably not actually winning.



Orochimaru op said:


> Tsunade already states she can regrow limbs, so she can sack a limb that’s hit with Amaterasu and be fine.


No, because Amaterasu covers her . Not just her limbs.



Orochimaru op said:


> If Sasuke goes in Cqc against Tsuande withou knowledge on instant regen that could easily be gg. A stab into her would lead to a fatal grab, and if tsunade grabs him once that’s it.


No, because he's perfectly capable of dodging pretty much everything she can throw out, and even if she does land a hit on him he can just defend with Susanoo.

Not to mention, Genjutsu gg. Hell, he can literally paralyze her with Chidori Nagashi and crush her with a Susanoo arm at close distance.



Orochimaru op said:


> Truths be told the only way MS Sasuke can really get rid of Katsuyu is kirin, which takes some lengthy prep and Amaterasu use.


Nah, Amaterasu is still a gg. Not like it needs to comes out in the first place when Tsunade gets killed before she can even summon Katsuyu.



Orochimaru op said:


> Genjutsu could be broken with partner method, so Katsuyu is fine.


Well yes, Katsuyu can probably shake it off especially if she splits into multiple pieces, but Tsunade's not safe from it at all times. Unless she just has Katsuyu conveniently summoned right as the battle starts or something, Sasuke's Genjutsu's a big threat for her.



Orochimaru op said:


> Sasuke Amaterasu slam could potentially drain tsunade’s Chakra, but considering the length of her fight with Madara, it’s entirely possible she outlasts his Amaterasu spam.


Nope, because you're assuming that Amaterasu will conveniently only hit her limbs or some nonsense when every single time it's been used it's shown to affect the victim's whole body.

Sasuke could literally set up an object as big as the in fire, so the notion that he'll only catch Tsunade's limbs is borderline ridiculous, especially if you're seriously insinuating that he goes an entire fight only catching her limbs.



Orochimaru op said:


> I selled tsunade way too short here early.


No, the only one you're selling short here is Sasuke. Your earlier analysis on the fight is probably way more accurate than this one.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Azula (Aug 31, 2019)

It is not my problem if other characters don't get counters.

If he thinks gyuki doesn't get to shake off Amaterasu with his strength nothing I can do.

What goes on his mind cannot be guessed, what he puts in manga though is plain to see.

Tsunade also didn't get to deal with Madara's gigantic fireballs only the small ones.


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## Azula (Aug 31, 2019)

weegee22 said:


> Ask 4th Raikage, Hebi Sasuke (who HAD to use Oral Rebirth just to escape), Cerberus and that samurai's armour if Amaterasu doesn't act like a superglue



I am not saying that any ninja can shake off Amaterasu.

I am saying the ninjas with proven feats to shake off flames can do it and only Tsunade has the feats, everyone else just runs from fire because they cannot do it.



weegee22 said:


> . I think you seem to forget the fact that CES actually expels chakra, so Tsunade technically had a small chakra shield on her hands. So she technically didn't punch them away directly with her bare skin



I am not really concerned with how it happened, only that it happened.

So byakugo forms a sort of chakra shield on her body...? That only supports the argument that Amaterasu will be deflected since Naruto too could deflect it with a sort of chakra shield.


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## Trojan (Aug 31, 2019)

It can go either way. Probably Tsunade ends up winning more times than not by outlasting... 


---
Side note: Funny how am I not seeing Tobirama's fanboys saying
"Tsunade is a Senju, she must be super fast, has great Genjutsu and Genjutsu counters, amazing Ninjutsu ...etc etc"


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## weegee22 (Sep 1, 2019)

Azula said:


> I am not saying that any ninja can shake off Amaterasu.
> 
> I am saying the ninjas with proven feats to shake off flames can do it and only Tsunade has the feats, everyone else just runs from fire because they cannot do it.
> 
> ...



The hell are you on lmao? I only stated that CES only expels chakra from her hands and feet, so basically wherever she ATTACKS with. Tsunade only had that shield around her hands. 

Now if she was a Juuken user, different story, but even then it wouldn't work, since something like Body Blow won't work on areas that don't have tenketsu. So my point still stands.


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## Speedyamell (Sep 1, 2019)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> m going to need to see the moment where Suigetsu ponders armless Orochimaru being a threat to MS Sasuke though, because I don't remember it. He freaked out when Sasuke was about to revive Oro in the war, but that would suggest he's a threat to EMS Sasuke, which is silly. Even then, Sasuke was the one who straight up beat armless/sick Orochimaru and sealed him in the first place back before he assembled Hebi


That's exactly the panel i'm talking about. And no it's not necessarily silly, it just further emphasizes how strong these legendary three shinobi, which y'all think are a joke really are.
I in fact only used it in relation to Ms sasuke, because it was pointed out to me that suigetsu only "saw" Sasuke's power up until early fks. Which is still good hype orochimaru as it would mean he is still considered a threat to that Sasuke even without arms.
Which would put an Oro with arms above said sasuke and around the stronger danzo fight version.


It's also hilarious to bring up beating an Oro that was on his deathbed as a feat for sasuke. When suigetsu in the same panel I'm referring to, pointed out was only possible due to Oro not having arms, and which sasuke himself basically acknowledged he could only accomplish because of oro's dire condition.
The two already huge nerfs aside, Oro was also still trying to capture rather than kill. And everybody and their mother knows that Oro could have still killed once he paralysed him with toxins if he wanted to.
Bringing up Bos Sasuke here is a joke. As an Armless, literally near death Oro would have still beaten him if he had killing intent


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## Speedyamell (Sep 1, 2019)

FlamingRain said:


> What do you think of Gyuki not shaking off Amaterasu when he fought Taka?


What does this even have to do with anything??
Does bee use CES like tsunade does?
Do they have the same abilities?
On top of the fact that bee already countered amaterasu in his own way.. and duped Sasuke, who took back home a giant chunk of octopus tentacle with pride and didn't know?

Tsunade is the first person to show she can with her CES physically interact with something like fire - aka a literal ball of gas. Has nothing to do with bee whatsoever


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## Richard Lionheart (Sep 1, 2019)

If Sasuke fights like he did during the Kage Summit, it just might end in a draw. The Raikage almost destroyed his ribcage, since it was a lot weaker than Madaras. Tsunade will open it, even if her arms are on fire. If he attacks without his Susanno and gets stuck with his arm in her chest, he is dead. 
Susanno arrows and Amaterasu are definetly his best bet.


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## t0xeus (Sep 1, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> While initially I thought this was pretty clear, I think I underplayed tsunade. I think I ignored that she does have ways to win and it is a possiblity  and not as unlikely as I thought.
> 
> 
> Sasuke in MS is most likely to try and block a 100 healings amped punch or kick with ribcage susanoo. Sasuke didn’t even try and use the higher versions against the raikage. The thing is tsunade bursts through that level of susanoo easily.
> ...


You're assuming Sasuke for some reason targets Tsunade's limbs with Amaterasu which makes no sense for him to do

He will obviously use it on a vital part of her body like head or torso, and in that case Tsunade is fucked


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## BlackHeartedImp (Sep 1, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> That's exactly the panel i'm talking about. And no it's not necessarily silly, it just further emphasizes how strong these legendary three shinobi, which y'all think are a joke really are.
> I in fact only used it in relation to Ms sasuke, because it was pointed out to me that suigetsu only "saw" Sasuke's power up until early fks. Which is still good hype orochimaru as it would mean he is still considered a threat to that Sasuke even without arms.
> Which would put an Oro with arms above said sasuke and around the stronger danzo fight version.
> 
> ...


Why do you insist on slinging around accusations, speedy? I don't think any less of the sannin than you do (Tsunade maybe but we're in the shitter with that woman already), I just think some of these statements and/or "hype" you bring up are overblown. 

And yeah, it all comes back to Orochimaru wanting body, lol. Hazuki would be proud. Anyway, taking Suigetsu at face value is flawed, as I've said. He:

-Doesn't have intricate knowledge of Sasuke. Knowing him "well enough" doesn't make him an authority on things, especially since his knowledge wasn't up to date.
-Likely doesn't know about Orochimaru's full power either.
-Is scared of Oro to begin with since he's, ya know, the guy who captured and experimented on him then basically jailed him. 

He's fought with Sasuke and seen his techniques, but fear makes people do or say irrational/illogical things all the time. That wasn't hype for Oro, that was just cowardice on display.

Proper hype for Oro would be when he faced down Kakashi in part I and had him shook just by approaching him. Scaring witless someone who, up to that point, hadn't backed down from anyone and was shown to be perhaps the most competent character in the series besides Hiruzen, was great hype. It was also properly followed up in his fight with Hiruzen (the first kage level battle shown in the series).


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## FlamingRain (Sep 1, 2019)

weegee22 said:


> The hell are you on lmao? I only stated that CES only expels chakra from her hands and feet, so basically wherever she ATTACKS with. Tsunade only had that shield around her hands.
> 
> Now if she was a Juuken user, different story, but even then it wouldn't work, since something like Body Blow won't work on areas that don't have tenketsu. So my point still stands.



No such limitations for CES have ever been suggested. It is simply a precise gathering and releasing of Chakra. A user can use whatever part of her body she wants to unleash it. The feet should actually be the last place Tsunade could apply CES with because they're stated to be the hardest part of the body to manipulate Chakra in yet she's done it. The rest of the body is fair game considering that and the fact that we've seen inferior medical specialists focus Chakra into other body parts for techniques with even higher acquisition difficulty (Shosen/In'yu Shōmetsu).


Speedyamell said:


> What does this even have to do with anything??



Strength was brought up. BM Bee should be at least comparable to Tsunade in strength so if this would work why would Bee not shake Amaterasu off?

True, Bee doesn't use CES like Tsunade, but what difference does that actually make when the charge-up and release are internal? That's why Kishi doesn't draw Chakra around her when she attacks the way he does with Butterfly Chōji, and it's why Madara didn't simply use Preta to absorb her hit before begrudgingly resorting to a wood doppelgänger.


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## weegee22 (Sep 1, 2019)

FlamingRain said:


> No such limitations for CES have ever been suggested. It is simply a precise gathering and releasing of Chakra. A user can use whatever part of her body she wants to unleash it. The feet should actually be the last place Tsunade could apply CES with because they're stated to be the hardest part of the body to manipulate Chakra in yet she's done it. The rest of the body is fair game considering that and the fact that we've seen inferior medical specialists focus Chakra into other body parts for techniques with even higher acquisition difficulty (Shosen/In'yu Shōmetsu).
> 
> 
> Strength was brought up. BM Bee should be at least comparable to Tsunade in strength so if this would work why would Bee not shake Amaterasu off?
> ...



Actually, that's exactly why Tsunade and Sakura (especially Sakura) relied mostly on their hands for their taijutsu. Thank you for the reminder.

I don't think Kabuto was expelling chakra out of his wounds when he was tanking those otherwise-fatal attacks, he was clearly healing internally first, you can even see that his wounds were healing inside first and then out. Mystical Palm jutsu is purely focused from the hands too.

I imagine that when Tsunade used her kicks, she used her own natural raw strength (which Sakura arguably lacks) and amped it with her Byakugo. Just like how Lee was focusing his chakra in his limbs for his taijutsu, Tsunade did the same for her legs on top of her own natural strength. So she probably never expelled chakra from her feet. But with her hands she did.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 1, 2019)

weegee22 said:


> Actually, that's exactly why Tsunade and Sakura (especially Sakura) relied mostly on their hands for their taijutsu. Thank you for the reminder.
> 
> I don't think Kabuto was expelling chakra out of his wounds when he was tanking those otherwise-fatal attacks, he was clearly healing internally first, you can even see that his wounds were healing inside first and then out. Mystical Palm jutsu is purely focused from the hands too.
> 
> I imagine that when Tsunade used her kicks, she used her own natural raw strength (which Sakura arguably lacks) and amped it with her Byakugo. Just like how Lee was focusing his chakra in his limbs for his taijutsu, Tsunade did the same for her legs on top of her own natural strength. So she probably never expelled chakra from her feet. But with her hands she did.



Kabuto healing internally without actually expelling his Chakra doesn't undermine to the point because Tsunade and Sakura aren't expelling their Chakra either; CES is an internal process itself. We saw Sakura use Shosen while her hands were pre-occupied against Sasori so while Shosen is _typically_ used with the hands it _can_ be used with other parts of the user's body. It's the same with CES, hence Tsunade's Tsūtenkyaku being a thing (databook description tells us that she's using her Chakra for that, not just her natural strength, and that's pre-Byakugō).


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## Azula (Sep 1, 2019)

FlamingRain said:


> Strength was brought up. BM Bee should be at least comparable to Tsunade in strength so if this would work why would Bee not shake Amaterasu off?



This is a bit like arguing that Nagato shouldn't be able to absorb Amaterasu because he '*had*' to push off the flames. But we know that's not true because Amaterasu can be absorbed as seen later on. Things are added all the time in the manga. And alot of people also said that B shouldn't be able to cut off his own limbs, that too was proven to be wrong when B cut off his own limb later on. A character can counter with something but also have another counter later on.

Kishi had a counter in mind for B at the time, and it is in octopus nature to leave a limb when faced with a predator and escape, so it also fits in with an octopus themed character like B.

*So the counter for Amaterasu was in line with the theme of the character who is making it's first appearance more than anything else*.



> When under attack, some octopuses can perform arm , in a manner similar to the way  and other  detach their tails. The crawling arm may distract would-be predators. Such severed arms remain sensitive to stimuli and move away from unpleasant sensations. Octopuses can .





Everyone who is a matrix fan

@Francyst @Sufex @UltimaDude @JayK @Omote @Braiyan @Santoryu @Kai @ShadowSoul @weegee22

A little knowledge for you. 

Can B shake off Amaterasu?, it depends whether Bijuu strength is similar to CES because ultimately it depends on the writer who is probably not an expert in physics.

I personally think that when B is like this, then should be easily able to get rid of anything on the level of Amaterasu, it will just bounce of him, but he has to get in the position for the spinning and be already spinning.

Reactions: Like 1


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## FlamingRain (Sep 1, 2019)

Azula said:


> This is a bit like arguing that Nagato shouldn't be able to absorb Amaterasu because he '*had*' to push off the flames.



No.

I'm not trying to argue with what you said. I get what you've been saying. I just wanted to know what you thought of that instance with Bee, and there I was telling Speedy why I brought said instance up in the first place.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Devil_Jin (Sep 1, 2019)

This is ridiculous 

Tsunade shaking off fireball projectiles and getting injured by it does not  prove she can counter sasuke's ama. Amaterasu will cover her whole body from upside down and it's far stronger and it has shown on panel that it can counter regeneration which can all overwhelm tsunade . Even in this fanfiction of her shaking ama off with the pain she is in it's still useless as kagutsuchi immediately returns every flame back to her body.

People act like sasuke is going to sit there and appreciate tsuande shaking ama off. NO there will be dozens of susanoo arrows and punches raining on her while she's occupied with ama which would crush her while also ama would continously burn.

So let me break it down.  This sasuke reacted physically to V1 A with 3T and reacted mentally to V2 A's shunshin with MS (and most of sasuke's attack and defense is mentally).  So he outclasses tsunade in speed comfortably.

She has no answer to arrows that where too fast for MS kakashi and V4 susanoo 
No answer to genjutsu and no answer to ama+kagutsuchi

In before I get called a tsunade hater


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## Symmetry (Sep 1, 2019)

X III said:


> Nah, she gets wrecked. Like, it's an actual stomp. Not even close.
> 
> 
> No, he flat out COULDN'T use higher states of Susanoo against the Raikage because he didn't HAVE them at that time.
> ...




I forgot sasuke couldn’t. Jse higher states against the raikage, sorry about that. Tsunade herself says no medical ninja shall engage in battle unless they use the 100 healings, and that holds up as she only went to fight madara when she used it. I suppose you can say she didn’t use it against Kabuto but I think Ms sasuke is a little more threatening then a shinobi she knew nothing about. This also was pre will of fire tsunade who didn’t like opening her seal because it shortened her life, post will of fire tsunade is different.


I still think Sasuke would still use the ribcage. Maybe full body skeleton but that’s still the same durability, just more bones. It still doesn’t have the extra layers and such. Depending on the battlefield if he gets shot into a giant boulder and creates some dust that could lead to a follow up. 


Katsuyu could split the part of the Amaterasu off her like naruto did. 


Amaterasu on her torso would be bad, so it depends where it lands, although 100 healings keeps her alive long enough for th figh ti end in a draw with Amaterasu.

Acid mist could melt sasuke susanoo, so acid slime should too as well.


Would the chidori stream scramble a lightning user? 



Manifesting a full susanoo is not moronic and something MS sasuke Danzo fight would definetly do,m. 


I never said tsunade wins but I initially said his was neg diff but I take that back. I can see times she wins.


Sasuke wins 7 out of 10 imo


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## Dr. White (Sep 1, 2019)

Raiton Flow in Katana.

Chidori Eiso.

Chidori through the face.

Genjutsu.

Amaterasu.

Susanoo Arrow through the dome.

Kirin.

Pick your poison.


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## X III (Sep 1, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> I forgot sasuke couldn’t. Jse higher states against the raikage, sorry about that.


No problem.



Orochimaru op said:


> Tsunade herself says no medical ninja shall engage in battle unless they use the 100 healings, and that holds up as she only went to fight madara when she used it. I suppose you can say she didn’t use it against Kabuto but I think Ms sasuke is a little more threatening then a shinobi she knew nothing about. This also was pre will of fire tsunade who didn’t like opening her seal because it shortened her life, post will of fire tsunade is different.


Sure, but even against Madara it took her a while before actually using it.

I'm just saying that if you apply the Susanoo CIS to Sasuke, then you do the same to Tsunade.



Orochimaru op said:


> I still think Sasuke would still use the ribcage. Maybe full body skeleton but that’s still the same durability, just more bones. It still doesn’t have the extra layers and such. Depending on the battlefield if he gets shot into a giant boulder and creates some dust that could lead to a follow up.


Even his full body is dangerous for Tsunade because if it grabs her, she's done for.

And he still has his fully clothed Susanoo, so.. 



Orochimaru op said:


> Katsuyu could split the part of the Amaterasu off her like naruto did.


But Amaterasu spreads and would cover her entirely before she can even split.

Look at what Amaterasu did to .



Orochimaru op said:


> Amaterasu on her torso would be bad, so it depends where it lands, although 100 healings keeps her alive long enough for th figh ti end in a draw with Amaterasu.


No, Ama . She'll just be on the floor dying like Nagato until her regeneration wears off.



Orochimaru op said:


> Acid mist could melt sasuke susanoo, so acid slime should too as well.


Acid mist isn't the same as Katsuyu's acid. 

Katsuyu's acid has no feats so we can't say for certain, but seeing as how Susanoo has already tanked Mei's lava which is pretty much the same as Katsuyu's acid, it's safe to say that it won't do much to Susanoo.



Orochimaru op said:


> Would the chidori stream scramble a lightning user?


No.



Orochimaru op said:


> Manifesting a full susanoo is not moronic and something MS sasuke Danzo fight would definetly do,m.


Okay, but you're just assuming he fights in a dumb way and are ignoring a lot of the parts of his arsenal. Where are his Raiton variants, his Genjutsu, his hawk? 

Why can't he one shot with Amaterasu?

He's fast enough to run circles around Tsunade and react to all her attacks.

His V3 Susanoo is a gg.



Orochimaru op said:


> I never said tsunade wins but I initially said his was neg diff but I take that back. I can see times she wins.
> 
> 
> Sasuke wins 7 out of 10 imo


I'd change that to a 9/10, but respectable opinion


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 1, 2019)

How does such an obvious fucking stomp thread get almost 200 replies?


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## Symmetry (Sep 1, 2019)

X III said:


> No problem.
> 
> 
> Sure, but even against Madara it took her a while before actually using it.
> ...




Tsuande used 100 healings the swings she fought madara herself. Before that she did not engage. The rule is that once you engage an enemy on the frontlines a Sam medic, use 100 healings. That’s what she did and will do for sasuke.

I don’t think if susanoo grabs her it’s gg. Fatigued base tsunade can lift up a weapon fitting of a biju casually. 

Idk what to say man. Sometimes Amaterasu spreads like crazy and others you can neg it by shedding off the clothes.


I would assume acid slime is better then acid mist since it’s much more condensed

Actually, I forgot chidori existed, br this gives tsunade another way to win. If sasuke and tsunade charge at each other like the raikage and he did priori, and he sticks a chidori in her heat, he’s gonna get grabbed and either have his arm ripped off or be slammed into the ground, and his ribcage susanoo can’t tank it like before.

Also tsunade is a lightning user so she ain’t trying paralyzed


V3 susanoo is met with Katsuyu

Genjutsu didn’t land when she fought madara so she’s good. 

Hawk would definetly help.


He has way better reactions, but his speed isn’t way higher then her.


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## X III (Sep 1, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> How does such an obvious fucking stomp thread get almost 200 replies?


You should read the upper replies. You have people saying that Tsunade can deflect Amaterasu like she deflected Madara's fireballs. That shit made me want to throw up tbh.


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## sabre320 (Sep 1, 2019)

Sasuke is absolutely the worst opponent for tsunade...he focuses on hax and precision that specializes in taking out bruisers. He has shown the cqc agility and reactions to outmaneuver and outreact v1 AND LAND A CLINICAL heart strike, with knowledge he can easily outmanover tsnade and land a head shot with either eiso or chidori.

Once ms comes into play its a stomp...sasukes genjutsu ignores her endurance and durability and without maintaining eyecontact she is open to sasukes headshots.

The real deathcard for her is sasukes enton. Amaterasu is absolutely a hellish counter to her, she posseses nowhere near the speed or reactions to dodge or interrupt it, and it completely bypasses regen as seen with the juubi and cerberus. Only option is removing the body part and...sasuke can simply aim for her torso. The worst part is lets assume she manages to separate the amaterasu[absolutely disgusting fanfic logic] through a miracle sasuke can simply remanouver the ama with enton to smother her in flames. She simply is helpless against enton.. and all the while sasuke is immune to her assault via enton coated sussano.


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## X III (Sep 1, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Tsuande used 100 healings the swings she fought madara herself. Before that she did not engage. The rule is that once you engage an enemy on the frontlines a Sam medic, use 100 healings. That’s what she did and will do for sasuke.


What about against Kabuto? Against Orochimaru? (their second battle in chapter 171)

She doesn't always activate it.



Orochimaru op said:


> I don’t think if susanoo grabs her it’s gg. Fatigued base tsunade can lift up a weapon fitting of a biju casually.


It can just crush her too. Either way works.



Orochimaru op said:


> Idk what to say man. Sometimes Amaterasu spreads like crazy and others you can neg it by shedding off the clothes.


Obvious PIS, and armor isn't the same as clothes anyway.

Amaterasu would work here. That's just a fact.



Orochimaru op said:


> I would assume acid slime is better then acid mist since it’s much more condensed


Mei's lava which is similar to Katsuyu's acid failed so I don't see how it'll work. But even if it does, Sasuke can just jump.



Orochimaru op said:


> Actually, I forgot chidori existed, br this gives tsunade another way to win. If sasuke and tsunade charge at each other like the raikage and he did priori, and he sticks a chidori in her heat, he’s gonna get grabbed and either have his arm ripped off or be slammed into the ground, and his ribcage susanoo can’t tank it like before.


He can just use a higher stage of Susanoo. He can also paralyze her with Chidori Nagashi or trap her in a Genjutsu. And he can just attack from a range and bisect her with Chidori Spear. He can literally kill Tsunade in like half a dozen ways with just his base arsenal. She matches up really badly with him.



Orochimaru op said:


> Also tsunade is a lightning user so she ain’t trying paralyzed


Chidori Nagashi should work just fine. Tsunade can't emit lightning from her entire body. She can just coat her hands with it IIRC.



Orochimaru op said:


> V3 susanoo is met with Katsuyu


Who gets Ama gg'd.



Orochimaru op said:


> Genjutsu didn’t land when she fought madara so she’s good.


Madara never attempted to use Genjutsu on her. That's literally all there is to it. He was playing around the whole time. 

And to say that she's just "good" from Genjutsu is a really dumb argument. Literally everybody Sasuke's fought against has gotten caught in his Genjutsu. Fucking   have gotten  in each others' Genjutsu before. 



Orochimaru op said:


> He has way better reactions, but his speed isn’t way higher then her.


She'll still struggle to land any hits on him whatsoever.


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## Symmetry (Sep 1, 2019)

X III said:


> What about against Kabuto? Against Orochimaru? (their second battle in chapter 171)
> 
> She doesn't always activate it.
> 
> ...




Kabuto was Pre will of fire and Orochimaru had no arms, and she just used creation rebirth prior and was summoning katsuyu with Jman in the back ready to help.


If the band tries to break her she can brute force her way out


Idk man, Amaterasu doesn’t kill katsuyu as she can glob it off as naruto did, and it’s inconsistent, it depends where it hits. 

If she slammed him in the ground after being hit with chidori idk if he has the time to manifest higher stages of susanoo, that takes some time and he barely managed to use the ribcage in time.


Why can’t she emit some lightning chakra? She has bear perfevt chakra control being s medic ninja.


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## Isaiah13000 (Sep 1, 2019)

JayK said:


> Should be a good match up according to some geniuses in the NBD.
> 
> Starting Distance: 25m
> SoM: Bloodlusted
> ...


 Sasuke wins without much trouble, Tsunade cannot do anything against Amaterasu nor breach Sasuke's Susanoo. Literally the only possible way Tsunade could win is if Sasuke acted like he did against Danzo, and let her punch him only to block with ribcage Susanoo: Which would result in his immediate death for obvious reasons. But he is bloodlusted, so the chances of him doing that are slim to none. She gets assaulted by a combination of Susanoo arrows and Amaterasu and dies quickly.


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## Symmetry (Sep 1, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Sasuke wins without much trouble, Tsunade cannot do anything against Amaterasu nor breach Sasuke's Susanoo. Literally the only possible way Tsunade could win is if Sasuke acted like he did against Danzo, and let her punch him only to block with ribcage Susanoo: Which would result in his immediate death for obvious reasons. But he is bloodlusted, so the chances of him doing that are slim to none. She gets assaulted by a combination of Susanoo arrows and Amaterasu and dies quickly.




Katsuyu preforms we’ll against his full body susanoo


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## Devil_Jin (Sep 1, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Katsuyu preforms we’ll against his full body susanoo


What's katsuyu gonna do exactly ? You mean tanking or actually attacking the susanoo?


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## Ishmael (Sep 1, 2019)

Amirsh said:


> What's katsuyu gonna do exactly ? You mean tanking or actually attacking the susanoo?



Hope he doesn't mean attacking it when her offensive feats are shit.


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## Isaiah13000 (Sep 1, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Katsuyu preforms we’ll against his full body susanoo


The state of mind is bloodlusted, so Tsunade would be out for the kill as well. The OP doesn't specify knowledge either, so I assume it's manga, meaning Tsunade doesn't know what MS Sasuke is capable of and will rush in like she did against Madara. Except this time she'll be met with Susanoo arrows through the gut, and then roasted alive with Amaterasu. But let's say she does summon Katsuyu, what can Katsuyu do except stall for Tsunade? Her acid won't breach Sasuke's V4 Susanoo, and she can't protect Tsunade from his arrows since they would just go right through her. She'd also get lit up by Amaterasu, so she'd have to split up and divide to avoid burning to death: Which means Tsunade can't take shelter inside of her. So either way, I don't see how Tsunade is supposed to be able to win this one.


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## JayK (Sep 1, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> The OP doesn't specify knowledge either,


You are free to tell me the  _*I N S A N E*_  changes in the outcome of this Bloodlusted fight with full/no knowledge.


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 1, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> I don’t think if susanoo grabs her it’s gg. Fatigued base tsunade can lift up a weapon fitting of a biju casually.


And even V2 Susanoo has the physical strength to decimate stone pillars several meters thick with a shockwave from its sword without even directly touching them

And V2 Susanoo also has physical strength necessary to literally liquify a human being with a squeeze 

Something Tsunade has only replicated with Byakugo strength 


Orochimaru op said:


> Idk what to say man. Sometimes Amaterasu spreads like crazy and others you can neg it by shedding off the clothes.


And you go with its more consistent middle ground showings 

Not its low ones

You dont see people in here claiming Sasuke can take a CES punch to the jaw or never gets tagged simply because Oro and Kabuto had such performances against Tsunade now do you?


Orochimaru op said:


> I would assume acid slime is better then acid mist


Literally just an assumption 

Something you have nothing to back 

Acid mist has better feats and as a result its better by default 


Orochimaru op said:


> it’s much more condensed


And acid mists Ph is specifically stated to be entirely up to user discretion 

So this means dick 


Orochimaru op said:


> I forgot chidori existed, br this gives tsunade another way to win.


Yikes


Orochimaru op said:


> If sasuke and tsunade charge at each other like the raikage and he did priori, and he sticks a chidori in her heat, he’s gonna get grabbed and either have his arm ripped off or be slammed into the ground


1. Love how people still dont know how Byakugo works. Tsunade doesnt have passive regen. If she swings at Sasuke like this, she’s getting finessed and her heart is exploding and shes dying. End of story.
2. Susanoo will absolutely take an attack like that from Tsunade. Already gone over this. Susanoo likely gets fucked up, but Sasuke is gonna still be fine. Id also really argue that a CES punch is way ahead of a drop slam simply due to how CES functions. 


Orochimaru op said:


> his ribcage susanoo can’t tank it like before.


Yes it will

Susanoo took Liger Bomb and a V2 attack from the Raikage and only lost a portion of 2 measly ribs 

Even assuming Tsunades strength is so much higher than the Raikages that she vastly outperforms that in a single attack, and literally atomizes Susanoo, Sasuke will still be fine.

As shown when Kirin atomized Itachis and when Juubito atomized EMS Sasukes both in one instant hit, the user retains little to no damage and can simply get right back up and power into a SUPERIOR Susanoo in BOTH instances to top it off 


Orochimaru op said:


> tsunade is a lightning user so she ain’t trying paralyzed


Thats not how this works bud


Orochimaru op said:


> V3 susanoo is met with Katsuyu


And Katsuyu is met with Genjutsu enslavement 

And even without this Katsuyu accomplishes absolutely nothing against susanoo


Orochimaru op said:


> Genjutsu didn’t land when she fought madara so she’s good.


Thats really dumb logic

Madara stated up down left and right he was toying with them

Then again, youre the same guy who thinks Tsunade blitzed Madara in the same exchange where she ends up fucking impaled...So...



Orochimaru op said:


> He has way better reactions, but his speed isn’t way higher then her.


How bout yes the fuck he does tho

By a country goddamn mile

The fuck did I just read 



X III said:


> You should read the upper replies. You have people saying that Tsunade can deflect Amaterasu like she deflected Madara's fireballs. That shit made me want to throw up tbh.


Not surprised


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## Symmetry (Sep 1, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> And even V2 Susanoo has the physical strength to decimate stone pillars several meters thick with a shockwave from its sword without even directly touching them
> 
> And V2 Susanoo also has physical strength necessary to literally liquify a human being with a squeeze
> 
> ...




What Amaterasu does is up in the air. If it hits her torso I’m not gonna sit here and be like “she just strips lol” like maybe that would work based on showings but we have other showings saying that’s stupid, so I don’t buy it. Now if it hits like an arm or something that’s different. 

Chidori is indeed getting ranked, whether she rips his arm off afterwards or punches him or throws him who knows.

Genjutsu is  met with partner method.

If the susanoo breaks I don’t think he can manifest it immediately after so that would give her a window of opportunity.

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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 1, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> What Amaterasu does is up in the air.


No

No its not

It turned a Biju into a screaming prison bitch and ate through A’s V2 RnY shroud instantly 

When Tsunades durability, even when relying on her seal, is on BASE RAIKAGES level as shown by the teleportation feat

She gets cooked


Orochimaru op said:


> maybe that would work based on showings


Nope


Orochimaru op said:


> Chidori is indeed getting ranked, whether she rips his arm off afterwards or punches him or throws him who knows.


No 

No its not

If she doesnt have Byakugo active, which she NEVER opens with, shes dying

Period

And any counter on her behalf that isnt outright dodged gets met with susanoo


Orochimaru op said:


> Genjutsu is met with partner method.


FROM WHO

Whos her partner

Do fucking tell


Orochimaru op said:


> If the susanoo breaks I don’t think he can manifest it immediately after


Refer to canon


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## X III (Sep 2, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Kabuto was Pre will of fire


How does that stop her from using Byakugou?



Orochimaru op said:


> Orochimaru had no arms


So? He was still a threat.



Orochimaru op said:


> and she just used creation rebirth prior and was summoning katsuyu with Jman in the back ready to help.


None of this stops Tsunade from using Byakugou. 

Your argument is that a medical ninja must always use Byakugou when engaging the opponent. That's clearly proven wrong in both these instances.



Orochimaru op said:


> If the band tries to break her she can brute force her way out


The Susanoo arm can crush her into a pillar too. If Tsunade gets caught off guard, then she's done for.



Orochimaru op said:


> Idk man, Amaterasu doesn’t kill katsuyu as she can glob it off as naruto did, and it’s inconsistent, it depends where it hits.


Aside from the fact that it canonically worked on a dog that has shown the ability to split into pieces just like Katsuyu.

It's not inconsistent at all. It can spread to cover all of Katsuyu before she can split. That's all there is to it.



Orochimaru op said:


> If she slammed him in the ground after being hit with chidori idk if he has the time to manifest higher stages of susanoo, that takes some time and he barely managed to use the ribcage in time.


Susanoo's activation speed feats are better than what Tsunade's shown speed-wise. Unless you think Itachi saved himself from Kirin using a measly Ribcage, Sasuke can indeed activate Susanoo in time to save hismelf.



Orochimaru op said:


> Why can’t she emit some lightning chakra? She has bear perfevt chakra control being s medic ninja.


Because she's only shown the ability to coat her hands?


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## riousrain (Sep 3, 2019)

Jutsu vs jutsu, amaterasu hard counters her regen. At the moment Byakugo doesn't have a property that effectively counters Ama. Unless she always carries a sealing scroll like Jiraiya, Amaterasu will make the fight hell for her.

She may be able to coat herself with Katsuyu before the attack hits her but that move is quite far fetched. I do see her snatching some wins however due to her insane resilience.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 3, 2019)

Shark said:


> For me Base Jiraiya, Tsunade and Hebi Sasuke are on the same level. Jiraiya (I.e starts in base but can go SM) is a level/tier above them.
> 
> Orochimaru is somewhere in between Jiraiya and Hebi Sasuke; he's supposed to be slightly inferior to Jiraiya meaning he's superior to Base Jiraiya.
> 
> ...



I think Tsunade and Orochimaru are stronger than Base Jiraiya, but he outshines both of them inside of Sage Mode.

Orochimaru outshines even Sage Mode Jiraiya while he was Edo Tensei prepared.

But Tsunade could technically be stronger than Sage Mode Jiraiya as well if she had enough chakra stored up inside of her seal, allowing for endless regeneration, more powerful punches and possibly a larger Katsuyu Kuchiyose.

Hebi Sasuke gets paralysed with Orochimaru’s blood despite his teacher being on his deathbed. Had Orochimaru not been on the brink of death and desperately needed a new body, he could have easily killed Sasuke without the need to transfer bodies. Sasuke admits as much.

Tsunade landed hits on an MS user and his clones. But even Madara’s clones could land a hit on V1 A4 in his split second lapse of attention. Even Kage Summit Arc Sasuke couldn’t achieve this, never mind Hebi.

Base Jiraiya is the closest to Hebi Sasuke in power IMO, although he’s fast enough to keep up with his speed, uses clones, possessses the willpower to survive Genjutsu and stab wounds, and can use Toad Stomach which stops Sasuke from getting to a range and bringing out Kirin.

I’d put Hebi Sasuke at the bottom of Mid Kage, Jiraiya somewhere in the middle, Tsunade and Orochimaru at the top/bottom of High Kage, and SM Jiraiya in the low-mid echelons of High Kage. Orochimaru w/ ET goes into Top Tier or God Tier.

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