# Archie Super Sonic in Dragon Ball



## Mabel Gleeful (Feb 10, 2017)

Inspired by this:

What's the most powerful Dragon Ball character that Super Sonic from Archie comics can beat?


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## Blocky (Feb 10, 2017)

I heard something about archie Sonic being muitlversal and shit.

DBZ\GT would get stomped, Idk about super.

My guess he stops at Zeno or Giygas Zamasu


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## xenos5 (Feb 10, 2017)

Archie Sonic is wanked to hell. I kinda agree with a lot of the sentiments shown in this blog 

He very likely doesn't make it past Z. Definitely dies in Super.


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## xenos5 (Feb 10, 2017)

Blocky said:


> I heard something about *archie Sonic being multiversal and shit.*
> 
> DBZ\GT would get stomped, Idk about super.
> 
> My guess he stops at Zeno or Giygas Zamasu



I think that comes from a lot of misconceptions. I linked a blog that shows the misonceptions in the post above this one so you can see what I mean.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Feb 10, 2017)

he still has hax and is way faster than manga DB.


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## Gomu (Feb 10, 2017)

They would get stomped hard. Dragon Ball, even Zenos. By Super Sonic. Despite the universe being recreated, Sonic kept his Speed and Destructive Potential from the old universe. That means he can still run through the multiverse easily, is at least A Solar System Buster at base and can tank the same thing due to his wormhole speed feat (which is unquantifiable). 

Archie Sonic is basically a more powerful version of the Flash really. He can reality warp with Chaos Control with his feats from World Collide, had fought Dark Gaia who was the embodiment of Darkness, etc. Also unlike the old universe where it was stated to be "Multi-Universe" it was confirmed in Silver's Future that the Sonic Universe is indeed a .



If we're using Sonic Archie Verse, are we using stuff like the World's Collide and Unite crap?

Sigma was threatening the entire dimensional matrix of the entire "Multiverse" and his powers got so strong that even Super Sonic and Megaman's Chaos Controls had no effect upon the holes in dimensional space he was creating making him above Multiversal.

Overall, Super Sonic would Solo through Chaos Control alone. Not to mention all the haxes it encompasses.

Reactions: Dislike 6


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## Nep Heart (Feb 10, 2017)

Some unquantifiable shit about crossing the entire multiverse twice in a day is apparently a thing. He probably the hax to get very far since Archie Sanic is basically a tryhard attempt at being The Flash. Not sure how legit is destroying a black hole that absorbed multiple stars.

 All this is just cursory knowledge, I mostly am only into the games anyway.


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## Gomu (Feb 10, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Some unquantifiable shit about crossing the entire multiverse twice in a day is apparently a thing. He probably the hax to get very far since Archie Sanic is basically a tryhard attempt at being The Flash. Not sure how legit is destroying a black hole that absorbed multiple stars.
> 
> All this is just cursory knowledge, I mostly am only into the games anyway.


Not only "attempting", he outdoes him in every possible way, shape and form, your mileage may vary with characterization, but power-wise, he's faster, stronger and has overall better haxes.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Juub (Feb 10, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Not only "attempting", he outdoes him in every possible way, shape and form, your mileage may vary with characterization, but power-wise, he's faster, stronger and has overall better haxes.


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## The Runner (Feb 10, 2017)

I can believe Archie Sanic being better That Post-Crisis, to a point

But better that the Flash in general?

Kek


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## xenos5 (Feb 10, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> he still has hax and is way faster than manga DB.



What kinds of hax?


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## Gomu (Feb 10, 2017)

You don't have to. Sonic is so fast he outblitzes Quickman. Quickman can keep up with a Megaman who was using Flashman's ability to stop time (completely) as in this is Dio's complete time stop. And completely makes an utter fool out of him. 



He is immune to "Time Stop" while in his Roboticized form, but this is implied to be just his "speed" as the form is only made to make him a slave and give him extra gadgets it doesn't actually boost his speed. It's even stated by Wily that he had to build a processor for Sonic to keep up with his own speed so it downgraded it.


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## Gomu (Feb 10, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> I can believe Archie Sanic being better That Post-Crisis, to a point
> 
> But better that the Flash in general?
> 
> Kek


Preference doesn't overcome facts, sorry if it's a hard pill to swallow. He can do almost everything Flash can do in his normal form, and it's stated that it's at least a thousandfold multiplier when in Super Sonic in Pre-Genesis Wave.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 10, 2017)

so Gomu is wanking again

no surprises here

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4


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## Gomu (Feb 10, 2017)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> so Gomu is wanking again
> 
> no surprises here


Yes please. Show me what I've lied about then? What have I wanked. Sonic can vibrate his molecules at the same speed, but because this is a "kids book" he doesn't do the gruesome shit that Flash does. He can time stop with chaos control, can move within frozen time without chaos emeralds. So long as "the wind" exists, so too does Sonic. Invisibility by Moving your molecules at a high frequency, etc. 

What stops Sonic from stopping time and being R-Rated with Flash?


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## Blocky (Feb 10, 2017)

I have a feeling he's getting that shit from MVC.

Anyways, How big the archie multiverse? It had capcom and sega universes IIRC but still.


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## Gomu (Feb 10, 2017)

Blocky said:


> I have a feeling he's getting that shit from MVC.
> 
> Anyways, How big the archie multiverse? It had capcom and sega universes IIRC but still.


We don't know how.

I'm not getting anything from MVC, I don't even go to places like that. I study the Archie Sonicverse as well as the Sonic Gameverse.


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## The Runner (Feb 10, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Preference doesn't overcome facts, sorry if it's a hard pill to swallow. He can do almost everything Flash can do in his normal form, and it's stated that it's at least a thousandfold multiplier when in Super Sonic in Pre-Genesis Wave.


How fascinating

Mind proving it by typing down an actual list of all of Sonic's casual powers? His most impressive feat.

Because we currently have  an Amped Wally West with the fastest charted feat of the OBD under his belt

Who is STILL not the fastest Flash in the verse


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## Gomu (Feb 10, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> How fascinating
> 
> Mind proving it by typing down an actual list of all of Sonic's casual powers? His most impressive feat.
> 
> ...


Now you know that people like Flash more than Sonic, stop it please.

Sonic in his base form while weaker than he is now, was capable of running throughout a Multiverse in the span of a single day. This is through the Cosmic Interstate/




 (Just added forgot where it was)

An unquantifiable feat was stopping a Solar System Black Hole from engulfing the Solar System. In base. This also counts as a durability feat as shortly after he was sent flying through space. -





Like I showed before, he is immune to time slowing and stopping effects possibly either due to being "just that fast" or because he has the hax. But that's unquantifiable.


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## Freddy Mercury (Feb 10, 2017)

Blocky said:


> I have a feeling he's getting that shit from MVC.



He's not. MVC wanked Archie Sonic to Megaversal levels

What Gomu is claiming holds merits. Archie Sonic is better than Flash from my knowledge, as Archieverse usually turns shit like logic and the laws of  physics into gags


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## Gomu (Feb 10, 2017)

Freddie Mercury said:


> He's not. MVC wanked Archie Sonic to Megaversal levels
> 
> What Gomu is claiming holds merits. Archie Sonic is better than Flash from my knowledge


I don't hold him to Megaversal unless stated feats show, I've no reason to lie. If the Flash is faster than he is.

Btw, What's up Freddie man, how the hell have you been bro!


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## Freddy Mercury (Feb 10, 2017)

Gomu said:


> I don't hold him to Megaversal unless stated feats show, I've no reason to lie. If the Flash is faster than he is.
> 
> Btw, What's up Freddie man, how the hell have you been bro!



I'm not saying you are. i'm saying that is the reason why your argument is different from MVC's.

Also nm, just chilling at home on my birthday.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gomu (Feb 10, 2017)

Freddie Mercury said:


> I'm not saying you are. i'm saying that is the reason why your argument is different from MVC's.
> 
> Also nm, just chilling at home on my birthday.


No I know ya not. I quoted ya because I wanted to talk to ya man. It's been QUITE a while.


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## Gomu (Feb 10, 2017)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> so Gomu is wanking again
> 
> no surprises here


Don't forget to show me where I was wanking, make it a learning experience for me.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Gordo solos (Feb 10, 2017)

Freddie Mercury said:


> Also nm, just chilling at home on my birthday.


Happy birthday


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## The Runner (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Now you know that people like Flash more than Sonic, stop it please.
> 
> Sonic in his base form while weaker than he is now, was capable of running throughout a Multiverse in the span of a single day. This is through the Cosmic Interstate/
> 
> ...


I don't see any of this reaching the best tiers of the Flash, like Pre-Crisis Barry or Kingdom Come Flash

And that's just me eyeballing your statements, rather than looking at your scans

Considering you have a history of intentionally misrepresenting the feats you post to further your argument


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## Montanz (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Now you know that people like Flash more than Sonic, stop it please.
> 
> Sonic in his base form while weaker than he is now, was capable of running throughout a Multiverse in the span of a single day. This is through the Cosmic Interstate/


What's the timeframe for all of that?

The feat is not 100% perfectly measurable(then again so are most feats), but based on this line "_several hundred side trips across the cosmic interstate later_"  we can deduce he traveled to at least 200 different universes and that is enough to work out a distance.

being honest, he is not anywhere near as fast as flash, even assuming he crossed 1000 times the estimated diameter of the universe in a hour or two he is only reaching quadrillions of times FTL, flash is casually into the septillions and his best feat is something crazy like 10e30 times FTL.


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 11, 2017)

Montanz said:


> What's the timeframe for all of that?
> 
> The feat is not 100% perfectly measurable(then again so are most feats), but based on this line "_several hundred side trips across the cosmic interstate later_"  we can deduce he traveled to at least 200 different universes and that is enough to work out a distance.
> 
> being honest, he is not anywhere near as fast as flash, even assuming he crossed 1000 times the estimated diameter of the universe in a hour or two he is only reaching quadrillions of times FTL, flash is casually into the septillions and his best feat is something crazy like *10e30* times FTL.


Over 1e43 x FTL actually since it was him going from the Earth to the Moon within a Planck instant.

Reactions: Like 1 | Useful 1


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> I don't see any of this reaching the best tiers of the Flash, like Pre-Crisis Barry or Kingdom Come Flash
> 
> And that's just me eyeballing your statements, rather than looking at your scans
> 
> Considering you have a history of intentionally misrepresenting the feats you post to further your argument


You can think what you want to think, the feats are there. Misinterpreting what? Make sure you go down to the comments section of that blog so you don't... "misinterpret" anything.


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Over 1e43 x FTL actually since it was him going from the Earth to the Moon within a Planck instant.


It was the "Multiverse", the Cosmic Interstate traverses the Multiverse, I can show you a statement where it states the same thing.


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> It was the "Multiverse", the Cosmic Interstate traverses the Multiverse, I can show you a statement where it states the same thing.


O-kay? A little weird you're replying to me correcting Montanz's statement about the Flash's speed. It's been a long ass time since I last read Archie Sonic so I'm not really going to comment on much of anything. I just saw something about Flash's speed and wanted to correct it.


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## The Runner (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> You can think what you want to think, the feats are there. Misinterpreting what? Make sure you go down to the comments section of that blog so you don't... "misinterpret" anything.


We both know what I think about your argument.

And we both know you are incredibly unreliable, especially when it comes to context of certain feats

I'm well in my rights to be skeptical of you


Gomu said:


> It was the "Multiverse", the Cosmic Interstate traverses the Multiverse, I can show you a statement where it states the same thing.


???

He just corrected @Montanz Flash feat

The quote literally never questioned you about the properties of Sonic's feat.

Kind of Tone deft for you here dude


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## The Runner (Feb 11, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> O-kay? A little weird you're replying to me correcting Montanz's statement about the Flash's speed. It's been a long ass time since I last read Archie Sonic so I'm not really going to comment on much of anything. I just saw something about Flash's speed and wanted to correct it.


Ninja'd


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> O-kay? A little weird you're replying to me correcting Montanz's statement about the Flash's speed. It's been a long ass time since I last read Archie Sonic so I'm not really going to comment on much of anything. I just saw something about Flash's speed and wanted to correct it.


I just chose either one of you it didn't matter. I wanted to get in between that before it went deep. It's a Multiverse, not a Universe, he's traveling to Multiverses, he's moving to different realities from the Cosmic Interstate.


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 11, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Ninja'd


Sorry, Jogga, but my point is mine! 


*Spoiler*: __


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## The Runner (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> I just chose either one of you it didn't matter. I wanted to get in between that before it went deep. It's a Multiverse, not a Universe, he's traveling to Multiverses, he's moving to different realities from the Cosmic Interstate.


Umm, ok?


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Umm, ok?
> 
> Did anybody question this?


You guys are trying to make it seem like he was traveling through HIS universe, he was traveling to thousands of universes though even running clear across to Reverse Mobius/Moebius


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## The Runner (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> You guys are trying to make it seem like he was traveling through HIS universe, he was traveling to thousands of universes though even running clear across to Reverse Mobius/Moebius


Umm...

We were talking about the Flash

Learn 2 Read dude


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Umm...
> 
> We were talking about the Flash
> 
> Learn 2 Read dude



Make sure you read too.



Montanz said:


> What's the timeframe for all of that?
> 
> The feat is not 100% perfectly measurable(then again so are most feats), but based on this line "_several hundred side trips across the cosmic interstate later_"  we can deduce he traveled to at least 200 different universes and that is enough to work out a distance.
> 
> being honest, he is not anywhere near as fast as flash, even assuming he crossed 1000 times the estimated diameter of the universe in a hour or two he is only reaching quadrillions of times FTL, flash is casually into the septillions and his best feat is something crazy like 10e30 times FTL.



He was going through the multiverse. It was not the same diameter of the universe itself, it was literally a multiverse, in which he had to take MULTIPLE stops within a short period of time, probably less than a day.


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## The Runner (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Make sure you read too.
> 
> 
> 
> He was going through the multiverse. It was not the same diameter of the universe itself, it was literally a multiverse, in which he had to take MULTIPLE stops within a short period of time, probably less than a day.


Here you go again with this inane bullshit

Seriously, read what @Blakk Jakk was addressing, which was the thing you replied to

just, read what you replied to


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Here you go again with this inane bullshit
> 
> Seriously, read what @Blakk Jakk was addressing, which was the thing you replied to
> 
> Read what you replied to



If you don't see this I'm just not gonna talk to you anymore about it, K.



Gomu said:


> I just chose either one of you it didn't matter. I wanted to get in between that before it went deep. It's a Multiverse, not a Universe, he's traveling to Multiverses, he's moving to different realities from the Cosmic Interstate.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## The Runner (Feb 11, 2017)

Geez louise

Even _I'm _not dense enough to compleatly ignore the fact that Blakk Jakk wasn't talking about Sonic or his Multiverse but just correcting Montana about the Flash feat

@Montanz @Blakk Jakk @Gordo solos
See what I mean when I say that he has a tendency to intentionally minsrepresent shit for his own sake?


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> If you don't see this I'm just not gonna talk to you anymore about it, K.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Nep Heart (Feb 11, 2017)

I like how this thread went from Archie Sonic vs DBverse to Archie Sonic vs The Flash tho.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> I like how this thread went from Archie Sonic vs DBverse to Archie Sonic vs The Flash tho.


Sonic beats the shit out of DBS, that's why it happened.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Sonic beats the shit out of DBS, that's why it happened.


I don't think that warrants a comparison to The Flash especially since there's a Flash that is omnipresent across other dimensions.


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## xenos5 (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Sonic beats the shit out of DBS, that's why it happened.



Only your wanked version you're not going to convince anyone else to use.


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I don't think that warrants a comparison to The Flash especially since there's a Flash that is omnipresent across other dimensions.


So the current Flash is omnipresent, and will always be omnipresent?


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> So the current Flash is omnipresent, and will always be omnipresent?


No that's not what I mean. I was referring to Kingdom Come Flash. The current one isn't at least not that I know of.


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Only your wanked version you're not going to convince anyone else to use.


Please tell me what I wanked? I guarantee you that if you check the comments of that blog, the "wanked" stuff you seem to think you know is bullshit. I wanked nothing. All the feats, I gave in this thread were shown. You can't wank what's shown unless there's a caveat to it. There were no caveats. 



Also stop using a word you don't know. That's not what wanked means, I didn't upscale any characters. I've even stated that their are LIMITS to what they can do. If you keep using that word then I can't take you seriously as I'm showing evidence and am waiting for you.


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> No that's not what I mean. I was referring to Kingdom Come Flash. The current one isn't at least not that I know of.


Right, you're talking about a specific version of Flash, I'm talking about the current version of Archie Sonic.


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Right, you're talking about a specific version of Flash, I'm talking about the current version of Archie Sonic.


I wouldn't know because I'm not reading the current comics partly because I'm broke and I'm not a fan of the Post-Flashpoint comics.


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## SSBMonado (Feb 11, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> He very likely doesn't make it past Z. Definitely dies in Super.


> might not make it through Z

So this means Archie isn't the strongest version of Sonic (thanks to edgelord Sonic from secret rings being universal)? Comic books, you have failed me!


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

If anyone can show me where I wanked, please. I beg you. DO NOT HESITATE! I want to see it. If you are looking at this blog.



PLEASE. Be sure to read the comments. If you are a sensible person, if you aren't then I have nothing to prove to you anyway because I could show you the feats all day, and you'd say "nope wanking".

The multiverses were stated to be in a , Sigma has called them  we don't know how large the multiverse is, but it is far larger than Super's as it has more than "12" Universes anyway.



All the information is right here. If you need to use Ultra Guys Blog to go against what I say. MAKE SURE, you read what is stated in the comments section. Because people are rebutting things he has stated. It is not all correct, I did admit that he had some good rebuttals, but not all of them are good. If you don't, it isn't any skin off my bones, I'll do as I do any feat, keep it for rainy days when it needs to be seen again. But if you are sensible and you do see flaws in what I consider then by all means, I do not mine going back, checking and improving or throwing out a feat. But I'm not going to do that because consensus or people who don't want a character to be overtaken, say so. Never. You'll have to show me why.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Feb 11, 2017)

we admitted he beats Z, but Super Sonic cant beat Super. Thats reserved for shit like Titan Tails or Mammoth Mogul who are multiversal casually.


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## NightmareCinema (Feb 11, 2017)

Beerus Hakai's the furry.

Why the fuck this went on for this long is beyond me.

Reactions: Like 6


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## Montanz (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Make sure you read too.
> 
> 
> 
> He was going through the multiverse. It was not the same diameter of the universe itself, it was literally a multiverse, in which he had to take MULTIPLE stops within a short period of time, probably less than a day.



A multiverse is literally just a collection of universes. he doesn't need to travel more distance than the one equivalent to the number of universes he traveled to. And it's arguable wether or not he even had to travel a considerable chunk of them.


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

Montanz said:


> A multiverse is literally just a collection of universes. he doesn't need to travel more distance than the one equivalent to the number of universes he traveled to. And it's arguable wether or not he even had to travel a considerable chunk of them.


Except it was shown that when people do travel through this interstate, that yes, they are traveling the distances in lightspeed. But you also can't use factors like him traveling the universe, as he is not traveling within his own universe, as I stated, it is a dimension throughout the multiverse.


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## Toaa (Feb 11, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> No that's not what I mean. I was referring to Kingdom Come Flash. The current one isn't at least not that I know of.


He was only omnipresent within a city though and thats just from a statement which is up to interpretation.I dont think kingdom come has many issues.Completly unrelated to the match though.I know nothing about sonic.


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

Toaa said:


> He was only omnipresent within a city though and thats just from a statement which is up to interpretation.I dont think kingdom come has many issues.Completly unrelated to the match though.I know nothing about sonic.


Sonic wins this match they're salty. I don't think Blakk is salty, meh.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

Yo Salties, if you think of this as anything more than a joke. You're stupid.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## xenos5 (Feb 11, 2017)

The most i'm willing to buy is super sonic being in the large planet level+ to small star range.

Irregardless of his speed I don't see him doing anything to buu. I haven't seen any hax in this thread shown that would be able to bypass Buu's insanely good regeneration and nigh endless stamina.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Feb 11, 2017)

Yea and a Flash writer could say that no one is faster than him. it doesnt make it true you broken record

Reactions: Agree 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Feb 11, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> The most i'm willing to buy is super sonic being in the large planet level+ to small star range.
> 
> Irregardless of his speed I don't see him doing anything to buu. I haven't seen any hax in this thread shown that would be able to bypass Buu's insanely good regeneration and nigh endless stamina.


hes got timestop and BFR with some hax stuff here and there.


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> The most i'm willing to buy is super sonic being in the large planet level+ to small star range.
> 
> Irregardless of his speed I don't see him doing anything to buu. I haven't seen any hax in this thread shown that would be able to bypass Buu's insanely good regeneration and nigh endless stamina.


So you mean to tell me. Him being able to reset his ENTIRE REALITY is only planet level. He would have to have power that was either on par with or above the Genesis Wave Emitter to be able to perform that feat. The Genesis Wave, resets the entire multiverse to the whims of the person who uses it. 

You're out of your mind with this downplay. That's hilarious.


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## xenos5 (Feb 11, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> hes got timestop and BFR with some hax stuff here and there.



What kind of BFR? With instantaneous movement kais can travel to different universes so Buu should be capable of the same since he copied IM from Kibito Kai.


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## xenos5 (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> So you mean to tell me. Him being able to reset his ENTIRE REALITY is only planet level. He would have to have power that was either on par with or above the Genesis Wave Emitter to be able to perform that feat. The Genesis Wave, resets the entire multiverse to the whims of the person who uses it.
> 
> You're out of your mind with this downplay. That's hilarious.



Ultraguy explained in the blog post that he was only able to manipulate the already existing genesis wave because of its connection to chaos energy. He didn't make a genesis wave of his own or nullify the genesis wave which would definitely require him to be more powerful than it.


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> What kind of BFR? With instanteous movement kais can travel to different universes so Buu should be capable of the same since he copied IM from Kibito Kai.


Chaos Control is Battlefield Removal as Sonic Adventure 2 is canon to the comics, Chaos Energy on Super Sonic's scale can reset the universe, he can also use it to empower his attacks, which he does. He's a Multiversal Reality Warping MFTL+ character, who can time stop (superior to Hit's Time Stop) and in the old universe could resist effects from Multi-Universal Entities (now it would be called Multiverse because people here do not like Multi-Universe, and it was more than a 1000 zones, which Sonic also was fighting against before the Genesis Wave). They showed it in the ending of Sonic Adventure 2.


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Ultraguy explained in the blog post that he was only able to manipulate the already existing genesis wave because of its connection to chaos energy. He didn't make a genesis wave of his own or nullify the genesis wave which would definitely require him to be more powerful than it.


It doesn't matter. HE RESET HIS OWN REALITY, HE WAS CAPABLE OF OVERPOWERING THE EFFECTS OF THE GENESIS WAVE! This is why I say you're a moron if you listen to people who don't know what the fuck their talking about. He still "fixed" what should not have been "fixed" with Chaos Energy, that gives him the ability to rewrite the laws of his own reality. DO NOT FORGET that that's what he did. All it mans is that to do that he still needs to have some sort of focus for the abilities, it does not mean he doesn't have the power.

Simpler terms, basically, Sonic has the juice, the Genesis Wave Emitter has the focus.

Also before someone says "Megaman helped him". No. Megaman was shooting entirely at his OWN reality, and Sonic his own. They both reset their own realities.


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 11, 2017)

Toaa said:


> He was only omnipresent within a city though and thats just from a statement which is up to interpretation.I dont think kingdom come has many issues.Completly unrelated to the match though.I know nothing about sonic.


I'm going with Alex Ross' designer notes. He said Wally was omnipresent across different dimensions and constantly stepping into other realities. It backs up Spectre's statement.


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## xenos5 (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Chaos Control is Battlefield Removal as Sonic Adventure 2 is canon to the comics, Chaos Energy on Super Sonic's scale can reset the universe, he can also use it to empower his attacks, which he does. He's a Multiversal Reality Warping MFTL+ character, who can time stop (superior to Hit's Time Stop) and in the old universe could resist effects from Multi-Universal Entities (now it would be called Multiverse because people here do not like Multi-Universe, and it was more than a 1000 zones, which Sonic also was fighting against before the Genesis Wave). They showed it in the ending of Sonic Adventure 2.



This is pointless. You're never going to convince me of the bullshit DC/durability levels you're trying to push for Sonic being at. 

I would rather debate whether or not Sonic's hax would be effective against a character like Buu who can escape BFR, has regen to the point he can come back from smoke, and doesn't have any bodily functions that could be significantly affected due to his magical nature.


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> This is pointless. You're never going to convince me of the bullshit DC/durability levels you're trying to push for Sonic being at.
> 
> I would rather debate whether or not Sonic's hax would be effective against a character like Buu who can escape BFR, has regen to the point he can come back from smoke, and doesn't have any bodily functions that could be significantly affected due to his magical nature.


Then don't worry about it. He still wins, you're just salty. And I could care less.

I'm not pushing anything, he did it.


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## xenos5 (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Then don't worry about it. He still wins, you're just salty. And I could care less.
> 
> I'm not pushing anything, he did it.



Why don't you just bring up all of the haxes you think Archie Sonic has and show scans for them rather than wasting my time?


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Why don't you just bring up all of the haxes you think Archie Sonic has and show scans for them rather than wasting my time?


I already did that in another thread, look for it yourself in this one, buddy. 

I hope you looked at those comments, too. For example. How about the fact that Sonic stopped that Black Hole with his speed alone. It was black hole that could absorb entire solar systems, how in the bloody hell, is Sonic Planet/Star Level if he stops a blackhole that is Solar System Busting. That makes sense to you? In his base form. One of the biggest plot points happen from that in Pre-Genesis Wave so it can't be called a fluke.


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## Toaa (Feb 11, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I'm going with Alex Ross' designer notes. He said Wally was omnipresent across different dimensions and constantly stepping into other realities. It backs up Spectre's statement.


Is he the writer?Prob a stupid question.


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## The Runner (Feb 11, 2017)

Toaa said:


> Is he the writer?Prob a stupid question.


Artist for the comic, mostly


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 11, 2017)

Toaa said:


> Is he the writer?Prob a stupid question.



KC was written by him and Mark Waid


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## xenos5 (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> I already did that in another thread, look for it yourself in this one, buddy.
> 
> I hope you looked at those comments, too. For example. How about the fact that Sonic stopped that Black Hole with his speed alone. It was black hole that could absorb entire solar systems, how in the bloody hell, is Sonic Planet/Star Level if he stops a blackhole that is Solar System Busting. That makes sense to you? In his base form. One of the biggest plot points happen from that in Pre-Genesis Wave so it can't be called a fluke.



Sonic didn't stop a blackhole. He destroyed a weapon. That's what this scan you posted in the other thread indicates  . Destroying a weapon=/=having the same power as that weapon. Would you claim the ships in star wars that attacked the weak points on the death star that lead to its destruction have the same power as the death star?

EDIT: And looking at the other thread none of the haxes you mentioned would be effective against Buu.


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Sonic didn't stop a blackhole. He destroyed a weapon. That's what this scan you posted in the other thread indicates  . Destroying a weapon=/=having the same power as that weapon. Would you claim the ships in star wars that attacked the weak points on the death star that lead to its destruction have the same power as the death star?


How the fuck did he destroy a weapon that could implode with enough energy that it could destroy an entire star system? He didn't even touch it, he ran at such speed that he contained it and was sent away by the implosion. This downplay, how about you go check those comments, I see you still haven't, otherwise you wouldn't have asked such a stupid question from that blog.


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## The Runner (Feb 11, 2017)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> KC was written by him and Mark Waid


shit, I had The Kingdom stuck in my head for some reason when thinking about the writing team


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## xenos5 (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> How the fuck did he *destroy a weapon that could implode with enough energy that it could destroy an entire star system?* He didn't even touch it, he ran at such speed that he contained it and was sent away by the implosion. This downplay, how about you go check those comments, I see you still haven't, otherwise you wouldn't have asked such a stupid question from that blog.



Its durability sounds lower than its destructive capacity.


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Its durability sounds lower than its destructive capacity.


It's a fucking black hole creator, he did not touch the machine, it was creating a black hole, he contained the implosion with his sheer speed. There was no durability about it. He neutralizes the blackhole which is why he was sent flying to another galaxy.


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## SSBMonado (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> It's a fucking black hole creator, he did not touch the machine, it was creating a black hole, *he contained the implosion with his sheer speed.* There was no durability about it. He neutralizes the blackhole which is why he was sent flying to another galaxy.


Uh, if that's supposed to be literal than it completely shoots the feat in the foot, because crap like that is about as quantifiable as Superman turning back time by flying around the earth really fast.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 11, 2017)

@Sir Jogga @Toaa 

Here's what I was referring to.

Alex Ross' designer notes.

*Spoiler*: __ 









Norman McCay also confirms Ross' word.

*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> Uh, if that's supposed to be literal than it completely shoots the feat in the foot, because crap like that is about as quantifiable as Superman turning back time by flying around the earth really fast.


Except he was stopping a black hole that could generate enough power to absorb whole solar systems. It's all on my thread, I'm not gonna explain it to those who don't wanna listen, if you don't wanna listen why? All I know is ARCHIE Super Sonic beats DBS. Too much hax, too much firepower.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

@xenos5 

The  Super Sonic and Megaman fixed. Don't be salty.


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## The Runner (Feb 11, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> because crap like that is about as quantifiable as Superman turning back time by flying around the earth really fast.


I'm pretty sure it's 'cause the Planet spinned in reverse thanks to Superman time traveling, rather than Superman time traveling because he made the Planet spin in reverse

Regardless, it's your message that I agree with anyhow

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> I'm pretty sure it's 'cause the Planet spinned in reverse thanks to Superman time traveling, rather than Superman time traveling because he made the Planet spin in reverse
> 
> Regardless your message I agree with


Except this wasn't a time traveling feat, this was a "stop an ever expanding Blackhole from expanding and destroying the Star System" feat. Two completely different feats.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## xenos5 (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Except this wasn't a time traveling feat, this was a "stop an ever expanding Blackhole from expanding and destroying the Star System" feat. Two completely different feats.



You said it was accomplished with "sheer speed". That's completely nonsensical and cannot apply to Destructive Capacity.


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## Toaa (Feb 11, 2017)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> KC was written by him and Mark Waid


And thats why i had the premonition that it would be a stupid question.


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> You said it was accomplished with "sheer speed". That's completely nonsensical and cannot apply to Destructive Capacity.


Sure, whatever. *Thumb up.*


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## Toaa (Feb 11, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> @Sir Jogga @Toaa
> 
> Here's what I was referring to.
> 
> ...


What is wrong with the drawings?Seems more like a painting and less like a comic.


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## SSBMonado (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Except he was stopping a black hole that could generate enough power to absorb whole solar systems. It's all on my thread, I'm not gonna explain it to those who don't wanna listen, if you don't wanna listen why? All I know is ARCHIE Super Sonic beats DBS. Too much hax, too much firepower.


First of all, get your attitude checked. Repeatedly calling people "salty" isn't a suitable replacement for valid points. 

Secondly, the big elephant whose flabby rolls are resting on this supposed feat is the speed thing. Sonic nullifying a black hole "with his speed" means precisely fuck-all by nature regardless of how big the black hole's DC might have had.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 11, 2017)

Toaa said:


> What is wrong with the drawings?Seems more like a painting and less like a comic.


Alex Ross is a painter.


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> First of all, get your attitude checked. Repeatedly calling people "salty" isn't a suitable replacement for valid points.
> 
> Secondly, the big elephant whose flabby rolls are resting on this supposed feat is the speed thing. Sonic nullifying a black hole "with his speed" means precisely fuck-all by nature regardless of how big the black hole's DC might have had.


I just tell it like it is. If I'm showing feats and their constantly downplayed, I tend to call people salty.

It's not a might have, if you check my thread... It states .


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## SSBMonado (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> It's not a might have, if you check my thread... It states .


It could have been high complex sugsversal for all the difference it makes. That's also not the point I was making at all. The point is nullifying an attack regardless of its DC by "sheer speed" is not a feat. It's technobabble nonsense that doesn't scale to anything

Reactions: Like 2


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> It could have been high complex sugsversal for all the difference it makes. That's also not the point I was making at all. The point is nullifying an attack regardless of its DC by "sheer speed" is not a feat. It's technobabble nonsense that doesn't scale to anything


Whatever you say. *Thumb up.* Only Sonic had the "Power" to stop said machine. Like I said, if ever there is anything stated about Archie Sonic, his feats are... Stopping a Black Hole from expanding (Solar System Level), Super Sonic fixing his reality (Megaman fixed his own reality, both are multiverses), Sonic moving at several times the speed of light to travel the Cosmic Interstate which is him traveling distances of Lightspeed. Super Sonic is vastly superior to Base Sonic. That is about all I need.

Still though, the entire point of this is. Super Sonic rapestomp Z and Super due to their multiverse NOW being infinite. He is effectively, Multiversal to an unknown scale.

With that I'm done. Have a nice day. *Waves*

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Beerus Hakai's the furry.
> 
> Why the fuck this went on for this long is beyond me.


Oh and before I forget this statement, and this will be my last one.  says hi.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## The Runner (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Except this wasn't a time traveling feat, this was a "stop an ever expanding Blackhole from expanding and destroying the Star System" feat. Two completely different feats.


Again, Context is key here.

 Nobody was talking to you, nor your precious feat.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## The Runner (Feb 11, 2017)

See what I mean when I say that this guy is nuts?


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 11, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Ultraguy explained in the blog post that he was only able to manipulate the already existing genesis wave because of its connection to chaos energy. He didn't make a genesis wave of his own or nullify the genesis wave which would definitely require him to be more powerful than it.



that's what it looks like to me too 


*Spoiler*: __ 









it's like Surfer manipulating the Crunch (not the Big Crunch, totally different thing) to beat two guys who beat up Galactus

he can't output anywhere near that power on his own, but he's able to manipulate it

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Toaa (Feb 11, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Alex Ross is a painter.


And thats why the art looks so weird?


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 11, 2017)

Toaa said:


> And thats why the art looks so weird?


I like his art personally but it may not be for everyone. He does his pencils and inks first than colors it in with his paint. I can understand if it's not your cup of tea.


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## Toaa (Feb 11, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I like his art personally but it may not be for everyone. He does his pencils and inks first than colors it in with his paint. I can understand if it's not your cup of tea.


No its not that i dont like it.Its just diffrent from most comics i have looked at.Well most scans come from the threads though.Im not a comic reader.Except some flash issues.Though the art looks like the lucifer issues.


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 11, 2017)

Toaa said:


> No its not that i dont like it.Its just diffrent from most comics i have looked at.Well most scans come from the threads though.Im not a comic reader.Except some flash issues.Though the art looks like the lucifer issues.


There's not a lot of painters in comics so it's fair to be taken aback by it. Alex Ross is pretty famous though even if all he does now is just paint Marvel covers.


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## Toaa (Feb 11, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> There's not a lot of painters in comics so it's fair to be taken aback by it. Alex Ross is pretty famous though even if all he does now is just paint Marvel covers.


Shouldnt comics be drawn by painters?Though any related profession should also be good.


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 11, 2017)

Toaa said:


> Shouldnt comics be drawn by painters?Though any related profession should also be good.


Comics don't attract many painters AFAIK. I think @Sir Jogga knows more about this than me.


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## Toaa (Feb 11, 2017)

Should probably be cartoonists most of the time.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Whatever you say. *Thumb up.* Only Sonic had the "Power" to stop said machine. Like I said, if ever there is anything stated about Archie Sonic, his feats are... Stopping a Black Hole from expanding (Solar System Level), Super Sonic fixing his reality (Megaman fixed his own reality, both are multiverses), Sonic moving at several times the speed of light to travel the Cosmic Interstate which is him traveling distances of Lightspeed. Super Sonic is vastly superior to Base Sonic. That is about all I need.
> 
> Still though, the entire point of this is. Super Sonic rapestomp Z and Super due to their multiverse NOW being infinite. He is effectively, Multiversal to an unknown scale.
> 
> With that I'm done. Have a nice day. *Waves*


Well if youre done then we can reach an actual conclusion in this thread. He beats Z and stops at higher end characters in Super.


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## The Runner (Feb 11, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Comics don't attract many painters AFAIK. I think @Sir Jogga knows more about this than me.


They do, a lot 

But DC and Marvel have much less due to their direction


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## xenos5 (Feb 11, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Well if youre done then we can reach an actual conclusion in this thread. He beats Z and stops at higher end characters in Super.



Does he even beat Z? the DC/durability feats he's presented have been debunked and none of the hax I've seen him mention in this or the other thread would be enough to deal with Buu from what I can see.


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## NightmareCinema (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Oh and before I forget this statement, and this will be my last one.  says hi.



Beerus says "hello" back then proceeds to Hakai Enerjak out of existence as well for disrespecting a God of Destruction.

Or Beerus literally stabs him to death with chopsticks.

Either or.

Reactions: Like 4 | Funny 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Feb 11, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Does he even beat Z? the DC/durability feats he's presented have been debunked and none of the hax I've seen him mention in this or the other thread would be enough to deal with Buu from what I can see.


IIRC Sonic has some bullshit resurrection ability thats let him survive crazy stuff like having his soul erased. I could be wrong but unless its anime DBZ, they cant even touch Super Sonic. Hes got some higher end feats like surviving universal stuff, but all the DC feats for anything close to that for him have been debunked. 

He stalemates Buu in anime Z, should beat manga, and Super craps all over him.


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Beerus says "hello" back then proceeds to Hakai Enerjak out of existence as well for disrespecting a God of Destruction.
> 
> Or Beerus literally stabs him to death with chopsticks.
> 
> Either or.


OK now I'm back. So Beerus is Multi-Universal now? Super Sonic fought Enerjak multiple times. Enerjak is superior to a guy that could crush millions of multi-universes. Enerjak can erase existences by disassembling molecular structures. Hakai does the same thing, except Enerjak hits harder, much, much harder. He gets blitzed and crushed, Beerus doesn't stand a chance against the Archie Sonicverse as Zenos doesn't either. They'd both get crushed into a fine paste.

Sorry if you don't feel that way.



Please prove that Beerus can destroy Millions of Multi-Universes.


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## xenos5 (Feb 11, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> IIRC Sonic has some bullshit resurrection ability thats let him survive crazy stuff like having his soul erased. I could be wrong but unless its anime DBZ, they cant even touch Super Sonic. Hes got some higher end feats like surviving universal stuff, but all the DC feats for anything close to that for him have been debunked.
> 
> He stalemates Buu in anime Z, should beat manga, and Super craps all over him.



How would he beat manga Buu if he stalemates with anime Buu? Isn't the only difference between the two their speed?


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

Wow the downplay here. I give evidence it's overlooked... You see this is what's so fun about being here. Babies need to cry themselves to sleep because they don't want their characters to get fucked hard. Super Sonic sees the DBS universe as a play thing. I love Dragon Ball and I know damn well that Sonic has faced characters far superior to anything Super has or ever will see.


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## Nep Heart (Feb 11, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> How would he beat manga Buu if he stalemates with anime Buu? Isn't the only difference between the two their speed?



 Tbf, Anime Buu powerscales off a calc that got several hundred FOEs, which is hilariously above Manga Buu. So, Anime Buu should safely be able to curbstomp upper-mid solar system level characters, not so much for Manga Buu... unless there was a new calc I am missing.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 11, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Tbf, Anime Buu powerscales off a calc that got several hundred FOEs, which is hilariously above Manga Buu. So, Anime Buu should safely be able to curbstomp upper-mid solar system level characters, not so much for Manga Buu... unless there was a new calc I am missing.



 

anime exclusive flashback thing for Boo, in case anyone cares

Reactions: Informative 4


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## NightmareCinema (Feb 11, 2017)

This brings me back to those Sonic threads of 2011.

They were shit then, they're still shit now.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## xenos5 (Feb 11, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Tbf, Anime Buu powerscales off a calc that got several hundred FOEs, which is hilariously above Manga Buu. So, Anime Buu should safely be able to curbstomp upper-mid solar system level characters, not so much for Manga Buu... unless there was a new calc I am missing.



Ok so Anime Buu should be able to absorb Sonic or transmute him (since that resurrection shit OSA mentioned would prevent him from ending the fight just by killing him).

But since the "solar system level feat" Gomu tried to push for Archie Super Sonic was just some nonsense because of how it was done with pure speed what feat would place Archie Super Sonic at a level that Manga Buu wouldn't be able to deal with?


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## SSBMonado (Feb 11, 2017)

If Sonic has no way to put Buu down, then absorption would be an option. 
I don't know how Sonic's resurrection-whatever works, but Buu's absorption doesn't actually kill you - or at least not immediately. Presumably you don't truly die from it until you are permanently absorbed into his being, at which point Buu would have already gained all of Sonic's hax permanently as well.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> This brings me back to those Sonic threads of 2011.
> 
> They were shit then, they're still shit now.


I'm waiting for that Beerus Multiversal destruction feat.

Mammoth Mogul's feats are lesser than actual Enerjak feats and Sonic fought them multiple times. You don't even know what the fuck you're talking about. If you do then you'd show those oh so beautiful feats you have stored. I don't remember Beerus Hakai-ing a being of Multi-Universal Power, do you?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> If Sonic has no way to put Buu down, then absorption would be an option.
> I don't know how Sonic's resurrection-whatever works, but Buu's absorption doesn't actually kill you - or at least not immediately. Presumably you don't truly die from it until you are permanently absorbed into his being, at which point Buu would have already gained all of Sonic's hax permanently as well.


He's too fast for Buu. Already stated this. This place doesn't even believe that Buu is FTL, which is funny. You guys sound contradictory as hell right now.


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## xenos5 (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> He's too fast for Buu. Already stated this. This place doesn't even believe that Buu is FTL, which is funny. You guys sound contradictory as hell right now.



Buu easily has ways of circumventing a speed disadvantage. Just letting his opponent wear himself out attempting to damage him, separating into many clones, changing his consistency so when his opponent tries to punch him they get stuck etc...


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## SSBMonado (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> He's too fast for Buu. Already stated this. This place doesn't even believe that Buu is FTL, which is funny. You guys sound contradictory as hell right now.


Buu is crafty and has all the time in the world to come up with some trick to catch Sonic off-guard.
> Sonic punches/kicks/charges through/whatever Buu, causing him to fly appart
> a piece of Buu's body sticks to Sonic's glove/boot/spine/whatever
> Buu makes that piece expand
> Buunic get

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Buu easily has ways of circumventing a speed disadvantage. Just letting his opponent wear himselfout  attempting to damage him, separating into many clones, changing his consistency so when his opponent tries to punch him they get stuck etc...


What speed advantage? When a character can just stop time and blast him out of existence. Which Super Sonic can easily do. Against Buu he doesn't even have to become Super, he can stay base, run circles around him and chop him in half, thanks to being Solar System Busting. This is Archie Sonic, not Game Sonic, Archie is far superior to Game Sonic.


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## Nep Heart (Feb 11, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Ok so Anime Buu should be able to absorb Sonic or transmute him (since that resurrection shit OSA mentioned would prevent him from ending the fight just by killing him).
> 
> But since the "solar system level feat" Gomu tried to push for Archie Super Sonic was just some nonsense because of how it was done with pure speed what feat would place Archie Super Sonic at a level that Manga Buu wouldn't be able to deal with?



 My knowledge on Archie Sonic is only limited to cursory research, so, I can only go off that limit of mine. Anyway, the black hole generator might be small galaxy level on sheer size of black hole alone, but problem is proving it is a realistic black hole in the first place. I'm pretty cautious about black hole feats myself because fictional authors are rarely knowledgeable on them and black holes tend to lead to massively inflated results without other feats of more straightforward nature to corroborate. Of course, I only speak for base Sonic.

 Super Sonic should certainly stomp pre-Super, manga or anime, since some of the Zone busting he's dealt with are galaxy sized at minimum. I'm not arguing for universe or multiverse level Super Sonic, just saying Super Sonic is at the very least galaxy level at the most extreme conservation, him being above that is likely though.


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> Buu is crafty and has all the time in the world to come up with some trick to catch Sonic off-guard.
> > Sonic punches/kicks/charges through/whatever Buu, causing him to fly appart
> > a piece of Buu's body sticks to Sonic's body
> > Buu makes that piece expand
> > Buunic get


Hahahahahahaha... The downplay here.

Buu is definitely the smartest character in Dragon Ball.


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> My knowledge on Archie Sonic is only limited to cursory research, so, I can only go off that limit of mine. Anyway, the black hole generator might be small galaxy level on sheer size of black hole alone, but problem is proving it is a realistic black hole in the first place. I'm pretty cautious about black hole feats myself because fictional authors are rarely knowledgeable on them and black holes tend to lead to massively inflated results without other feats of more straightforward nature to corroborate. Of course, I only speak for base Sonic.
> 
> Super Sonic should certainly stomp pre-Super, manga or anime, since some of the Zone busting he's dealt with are galaxy sized at minimum. I'm not arguing for universe or multiverse level Super Sonic, just saying Super Sonic is at the very least galaxy level at the most extreme conservation, him being above that is likely though.


At least you're giving it something. If you need me to give you feats for Sonic, I will Ampchu, you should know me by now that if I fault myself, I'll say it. We've had these conversations before.


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## SSBMonado (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Hahahahahahaha... The downplay here.
> 
> Buu is definitely the smartest character in Dragon Ball.


He's pretty damn smart, yes. Lest you forget, academic intellect is not the only type of intelligence there is. Goku flat out admitted that even fat buu was a combat genius, and every other version of him is superior in pretty much every way.


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## xenos5 (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> What speed advantage? When a character can just stop time and blast him out of existence. Which Super Sonic can easily do. Against Buu he doesn't even have to become Super, he can stay base, run circles around him and chop him in half, thanks to being Solar System Busting. This is Archie Sonic, not Game Sonic, Archie is far superior to Game Sonic.



Firstly Being "chopped in half" does absolutely nothing to Buu. Secondly that "solar system level feat" you were trying to push for was not accepted by anyone due to it being done "through sheer speed".


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> He's pretty damn smart, yes. Lest you forget, academic intellect is not the only type of intelligence there is. Goku flat out admitted that even fat buu was a combat genius, and every other version of him is superior in pretty much every way.


No, Kid Buu was a savage, Super Buu was the smartest Buu overall. Sonic is a combat genius, a short-order strategist, and has been the Co-Leader of the Freedom Fighters since the book started. He's too fast for Buu in base, and too strong for him in Super Sonic. I believe that Buu is a Solar System Buster, of course but he's not fast enough to catch Sonic at all.


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Firstly Being "chopped in half" does absolutely nothing to Buu. Secondly that "solar system level feat" you were trying to push for was not accepted by anyone due to it being done "through sheer speed".


Ahhh so Buu has never been hurt by sheer force. You want to give me that lie now. I could care less if you don't accept it. He did it. Don't accept it. Just like you don't accept Super Sonic being Multiversal and beating Super. I've showed proof of that too and you still denied it.


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## NightmareCinema (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> I'm waiting for that Beerus Multiversal destruction feat.
> 
> Mammoth Mogul's feats are lesser than actual Enerjak feats and Sonic fought them multiple times. You don't even know what the fuck you're talking about. If you do then you'd show those oh so beautiful feats you have stored. I don't remember Beerus Hakai-ing a being of Multi-Universal Power, do you?


Refer back to 2011 for the debunking of your Sonic wank.

Got tired of that shit six years ago.

If anything, you're the one who doesn't know what the fuck you're talking about considering you're still pushing for debunked shit.

Enerjak gets obliterated for being shit.

End of story.


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Refer back to 2011 for the debunking of your Sonic wank.
> 
> Got tired of that shit six years ago.
> 
> ...


For being shit in what? What did you debunk again? What we were talking about about was Multi-Universal versus Multiversal. He's still Multi-universal, chump.

So he (Zenos) loses. And by extension, Beerus. It's cool man.

Trying to make yourself look good doesn't help against feats. Dragon Ball gets pulverized. And you want to know what's worse. An abomination like . Beats him.


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## SSBMonado (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> No, Kid Buu was a savage, Super Buu was the smartest Buu overall.


So? Kid Buu is completely insane, but he is still shown to be extremely skilled in combat and easily the most creative when it comes to exploiting his unique biology.



> Sonic is a combat genius, a short-order strategist


Does this BS fall under goalpost moving? Sonic's talent was never part of this argument. The fact is that all versions of Buu are geniuses in combat and would therefore be able to come up with a way to absorb Sonic eventually.



> I believe that Buu is a Solar System Buster, of course but he's not fast enough to catch Sonic at all.


That's odd. Judging by that black hole business, you seem to believe that speed translates to DC, so one would think that you'd believe DC to translate into speed as well.


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## NightmareCinema (Feb 11, 2017)

You know, all this gives me an idea.


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> So? Kid Buu is completely insane, but he is still shown to be extremely skilled in combat and easily the most creative when it comes to exploiting his unique biology.
> 
> 
> Does this BS fall under goalpost moving? Sonic's talent was never part of this argument. The fact is that all versions of Buu are geniuses in combat and would therefore be able to come up with a way to absorb Sonic eventually.
> ...


And it gets ripped apart in Base. And it gets completely disintegrated, in Super Form.

Except he'd be dead because Sonic is far faster than he is. He cannot touch Sonic. He is not touching Sonic. he will never touch Sonic. 

His speed stopped an implosion and he tanked said implosion. *Shrugs* Super Sonic would utterly annihilate everyone in Super. That's not wank, that's fact.


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 11, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> You know, all this gives me an idea.


Do it


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## The Runner (Feb 11, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> You know, all this gives me an idea.


Whatever it is, do it good sir


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## OneSimpleAnime (Feb 11, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Ok so Anime Buu should be able to absorb Sonic or transmute him (since that resurrection shit OSA mentioned would prevent him from ending the fight just by killing him).
> 
> But since the "solar system level feat" Gomu tried to push for Archie Super Sonic was just some nonsense because of how it was done with pure speed what feat would place Archie Super Sonic at a level that Manga Buu wouldn't be able to deal with?


We saw Sonic resist Transmutation from Enerjak so that wont work. Absorption is only an option for Anime Buu and Sonic still has timestop and i believe feats of traversing different dimensions so Buu cant hold him.

Honestly Gomu if you had a better rep or if a well-known/respected poster was pushing for some of these upgrades? I might be inclined to back them up and provide fair arguments for some of them. But youve dug yourself into a shit hole so these upgrades wont be happening any time soon.


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## Blocky (Feb 11, 2017)

God, this reminds back from 2011/10 on OBD and MVC.

It's like i went back in time.

Anyways, Gomu's ego shines as usual.

Beerus should win if others are saying is true.


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## xenos5 (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> *Ahhh so Buu has never been hurt by sheer force.* You want to give me that lie now. I could care less if you don't accept it. He did it. Don't accept it. Just like you don't accept Super Sonic being Multiversal and beating Super. I've showed proof of that too and you still denied it.



Are you for real? That isn't even close to what I said. If you know anything about Buu you'd know why being chopped in half would mean absolutely nothing to him.


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Are you for real? That isn't even close to what I said. If you know anything about Buu you'd know why being chopped in half would mean absolutely nothing to him.


... So physical ki-enhanced blows do nothing to him. It's not about being "cut in half" it's about being cut in half by a force that overpowers his own durability. Which is how this place has always worked.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

Blocky said:


> God, this reminds back from 2011/10 on OBD and MVC.
> 
> It's like i went back in time.
> 
> ...


How does he win against a Sonic that is Multiversal, far faster than light, has time stop and teleportation, can blast him with chaos energy to completely disintegrate him.

My egos not shining on anything. You're idiots.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## xenos5 (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> ... So physical ki-enhanced blows do nothing to him. It's not about being "cut in half" it's about being cut in half by a force that overpowers his own durability. Which is how this place has always worked.





Buu can come back from ashes/smoke. Doesn't matter what amount of force he's cut in half with it won't negate his regen.


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Buu can come back from ashes/smoke. Doesn't matter what amount of force he's cut in half with it won't negate his regen.


Yet he was affected by Gohan's punches and kicks. Hell Goku even bit the bastard.

He can be affected just fine by physical strikes. But that's not even the point since Super Sonic completely disintegrates his molecules. I don't know how you don't get this.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## xenos5 (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Yet he was affected by Gohan's punches and kicks. Hell Goku even bit the bastard.
> 
> He can be affected just fine by physical strikes.



He was affected by them but still ended up with no damage he couldn't recover from in less than a second. You should also remember Majin Vegeta punching and kicking Buu thousands of times and it having practically no effect as buu just bloated himself up again to get rid of the dents. 



Gomu said:


> But that's not even the point since Super Sonic completely disintegrates his molecules. I don't know how you don't get this.



You said "base form Sonic would "run circles around him and chop him in half. You never said anything about disintegration. You acted as if chopping buu in half would in any way kill or incapacitate buu when it wouldn't. I don't buy the level you're trying to put base sonic or super sonic at as well but that's besides the point.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> He was affected by them but still ended up with no damage he couldn't recover from in less than a second.
> 
> 
> 
> You said "base form Sonic would "run circles around him and chop him in half. You never said anything about disintegration. You acted as if chopping buu in half would in any way kill or incapacitate buu when it wouldn't. I don't buy the level you're trying to put base sonic or super sonic at as well but that's besides the point.


No I talked about Super Sonic's energy blasts through this shit too. Check again.


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## xenos5 (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> No I talked about Super Sonic's energy blasts through this shit too. Check again.



I was specifically addressing the shit about base sonic and you acting as if buu being chopped in half would mean anything to him. I don't even think base sonic has any energy blast techniques so disintegration wouldn't really be an option for him.


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> I was specifically addressing the shit about base sonic and you acting as if buu being chopped in half would mean anything to him. I don't even think base sonic has any energy blast techniques so disintegration wouldn't really be an option for him.


It doesn't matter, Buu still gets chopped up. Just like any other character with Regeneration, a hard enough force would still kill him, no matter how strong his regenerative property was. Even characters like Beerus showed that in Super when Fat Buu was trounced by him.


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## xenos5 (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> It doesn't matter, Buu still gets chopped up. Just like any other character with Regeneration, a hard enough force would still kill him, no matter how strong his regenerative property was. Even characters like Beerus showed that in Super when Fat Buu was trounced by him.



Beerus didn't kill buu tho. If Buu can endure an attack from Beerus and recover from it fairly quickly (he got up and tried to fight Beerus again for a bit after getting blasted) he's not having his regen tapped out by Sonic.


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## Gomu (Feb 11, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Beerus didn't kill buu tho. If Buu can endure an attack from Beerus and recover from it fairly quickly (he got up and tried to fight Beerus again for a bit after getting blasted) he's not having his regen tapped out by Sonic.


No... He wasn't trying to kill Buu, even showing off like he was playing with him. I guess the entire cast of Z Fighters have Buu's Regenerative abilities now.


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## xenos5 (Feb 11, 2017)

Gomu said:


> No... He wasn't trying to kill Buu, even showing off like he was playing with him. I guess the entire cast of Z Fighters have Buu's Regenerative abilities now.



He casually smacked the rest of the Z fighters but used a large ki attack against Buu 
He doesn't have any vital body parts. So there's no part of him that can be struck to deal fatal damage to him. He can just be vaporized but not really a way to kill him other than that (except for really hax shit like soul destruction).


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> He casually smacked the rest of the Z fighters but used a large ki attack against Buu
> He doesn't have any vital body parts. So there's no part of him that can be struck to deal fatal damage to him. He can just be vaporized but not really a way to kill him other than that (except for really hax shit like soul destruction).


Nah, unless you can prove that you can't claim it. Beerus was fooling around with the Z fighters. Gohan was overpowering Super Buu with physical attacks mostly, etc. He shouldn't be hurt at all by Physical attacks if they weren't affecting him.


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## twirdman (Feb 12, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Nah, unless you can prove that you can't claim it. Beerus was fooling around with the Z fighters. Gohan was overpowering Super Buu with physical attacks mostly, etc. He shouldn't be hurt at all by Physical attacks if they weren't affecting him.



Being hurt isn't the same thing as being destroyed by.  You can't claim that something that has never shown to do any permanent harm to him can kill him just because.  No physical attack caused him any permanent or even remotely lasting harm.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

twirdman said:


> Being hurt isn't the same thing as being destroyed by.  You can't claim that something that has never shown to do any permanent harm to him can kill him just because.  No physical attack caused him any permanent or even remotely lasting harm.


Then you would have to prove someone like say... Hit wouldn't be able to affect him.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Feb 12, 2017)

post the multiversal feat or w.e, this thread was incredibly hard to follow on account of all the random off topic flash stuff


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

Alright. The feats in here. - 

@Nighty the Mighty


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## accountmaker (Feb 12, 2017)

There sure is a lot of hate for Archie Sonic. I know next to nothing of the Comics, save for there being a St Patrick's day version of Sonic with  a dope jacket. However, I will say a few things: escaping or destroying a black hole isn't possible in real life, but this is fiction. Sonic using "pure speed" is the equivalent of DB characters shaking the planet with their Ki; not realistic, but possible within that fictional world. Sonic destroying a black hole with his energy, which you need to move at all (V=ma.aka Sanic has a fuck ton of energy) alone is a feat in and of itself. IT is a lesser version of Chaos Control across all platforms. Worse case scenario, Sonic and Buu get deadlocked in a game of intergalactic peekaboo. Lastly, no one in canon DBZ (I haven't watched Super) is tagging any version of Super Sonic, so Buu absorbing Sonic is out of the question. Just my two cents. Again, I don't read Archie, nor have I watched a significant amount DBS. This is just common sense. You can't apply "real world" physics to cartoons, otherwise not even The Flash would be above light-speed :/


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

accountmaker said:


> There sure is a lot of hate for Archie Sonic. I know next to nothing of the Comics, save for there being a St Patrick's day version of Sonic with  a dope jacket. However, I will say a few things: escaping or destroying a black hole isn't possible in real life, but this is fiction. Sonic using "pure speed" is the equivalent of DB characters shaking the planet with their Ki; not realistic, but possible within that fictional world. Sonic destroying a black hole with his energy, which you need to move at all (V=ma.aka Sanic has a fuck ton of energy) alone is a feat in and of itself. IT is a lesser version of Chaos Control across all platforms. Worse case scenario, Sonic and Buu get deadlocked in a game of intergalactic peekaboo. Lastly, no one in canon DBZ (I haven't watched Super) is tagging any version of Super Sonic, so Buu absorbing Sonic is out of the question. Just my two cents. Again, I don't read Archie, nor have I watched a significant amount DBS. This is just common sense. You can't apply "real world" physics to cartoons, otherwise not even The Flash would be above light-speed :/


Maybe Game Sonic is getting tagged as I wholly believe Dragon Ball is FTL after the feat with Piccolo and definitely during the Freeza Arc, Sonic should still be vastly faster than just FTL in Super Sonic given the huge increase in parameters and the main power he gains is a huge increase in his speed overall.


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## SSBMonado (Feb 12, 2017)

accountmaker said:


> There sure is a lot of hate for Archie Sonic. I know next to nothing of the Comics, save for there being a St Patrick's day version of Sonic with  a dope jacket. However, I will say a few things: escaping or destroying a black hole isn't possible in real life, but this is fiction. Sonic using "pure speed" is the equivalent of DB characters shaking the planet with their Ki; not realistic, but possible within that fictional world. Sonic destroying a black hole with his energy, which you need to move at all (V=ma.aka Sanic has a fuck ton of energy) alone is a feat in and of itself. IT is a lesser version of Chaos Control across all platforms. Worse case scenario, Sonic and Buu get deadlocked in a game of intergalactic peekaboo. Lastly, no one in canon DBZ (I haven't watched Super) is tagging any version of Super Sonic, so Buu absorbing Sonic is out of the question. Just my two cents. Again, I don't read Archie, nor have I watched a significant amount DBS. This is just common sense. You can't apply "real world" physics to cartoons, otherwise not even The Flash would be above light-speed :/


The problem with the feat is NOT that a black hole got destroyed. Not at all. The problem is in the manner it was done. Sonic did it "through sheer speed", which simply is unquantifiable BS that  can't even be translated into speed, much less DC or durability


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> The problem with the feat is NOT that a black hole got destroyed. Not at all. The problem is in the manner it was done. Sonic did it "through sheer speed", which simply is unquantifiable BS that  can't even be translated into speed, much less DC or durability


You're not really listening to him. Sonic took that implosion at point blank range and the energy of the weapon had enough force to generate a system busting black hole. He needed the energy to stop it which was stated in a scan I had.


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## accountmaker (Feb 12, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> The problem with the feat is NOT that a black hole got destroyed. Not at all. The problem is in the manner it was done. Sonic did it "through sheer speed", which simply is unquantifiable BS that  can't even be translated into speed, much less DC or durability


My point exactly. It can't be "quantified" because it's a cartoon. Same goes for Dragon Ball. The point is, however, that it _can_ be done. Vegeto _can _destroy a star. Gohan _can _smack away a Ki blasts and have it drill through the Earth in seconds. Gotenks _can_ scream hard enough to tear through an unstable region in spacetime during the Super Buu Skirmish. Sonic _can_ destroy a black hole with "sheer speed". If anything it's more impressive than if it were quantifiable, since no one in Dragon Ball has shown anything close to that, especially with "sheer speed". Just my two cents. I can tell this will devolve into a shitstorm, so I'm out.


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

accountmaker said:


> My point exactly. It can't be "quantified" because it's a cartoon. Same goes for Dragon Ball. The point is, however, that it _can_ be done. Vegeto _can _destroy a star. Gohan _can _smack away a Ki blasts and have it drill through the Earth in seconds. Gotenks _can_ scream hard enough to tear through an unstable region in spacetime during the Super Buu Skirmish. Sonic _can_ destroy a black hole with "sheer speed". If anything it's more impressive than if it were quantifiable, since no one in Dragon Ball has shown anything close to that, especially with "sheer speed". Just my two cents. I can tell this will devolve into a shitstorm, so I'm out.


It will. People think I'm undermining them when they're actually undermining all the feats I showed for Sonic. It always devolves. Thanks for being unbiased.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Feb 12, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> The problem with the feat is NOT that a black hole got destroyed. Not at all. The problem is in the manner it was done. Sonic did it "through sheer speed", which simply is unquantifiable BS that  can't even be translated into speed, much less DC or durability


if i actually cared enough to back Gomu up (i dont) then i would tell you that the motherfucking Flash also accomplishes everything through "sheer speed". We could quantify it but Gomu dug his own grave

Reactions: Funny 1


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## SSBMonado (Feb 12, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> if i actually cared enough to back Gomu up (i dont) then i would tell you that the motherfucking Flash also accomplishes everything through "sheer speed". We could quantify it but Gomu dug his own grave


Doesn't the motherfucking Flash accomplish everything through the power of "I don't have to explain shit" (i.e. Speedorce)?
I don't know how the speedforce is treated, so I can't really comment on it.


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> Doesn't the motherfucking Flash accomplish everything through the power of "I don't have to explain shit" (i.e. Speedorce)?
> I don't know how the speedforce is treated, so I can't really comment on it.


Sonic does this with his own speed. There is no power source, there is nothing "helping him". This was the power reinforced by that speed. Sonic has always been one, if not the, fastest character in his universe. Although that joke about him being "faster than anyone else in fiction" was a joke, the creators constantly call him "The Fastest Thing Alive" as not a joke, that is his literal moniker.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Feb 12, 2017)

im not explaining it further. if you want to push for upgrades by helping Gomu, thats up to you

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> im not explaining it further. if you want to push for upgrades by helping Gomu, thats up to you


He's not PUSHING anything. He's being unbiased. Big fucking difference. You don't have to like something to see that it should get what it's showing. That's fucking logic.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## OneSimpleAnime (Feb 12, 2017)

yea and i dont care or respect you enough to read your arguments. 


Gomu said:


> Big fucking difference.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## SSBMonado (Feb 12, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> im not explaining it further. if you want to push for upgrades by helping Gomu, thats up to you


I don't really see the relation here, given that the speedforce is Flash's primary source of pow- oh fuck it, where's the damn comic?

<5 minutes later>

So after finally caving and actually reading the comic, I'm noticing a whole host of different problems.
1 What Sonic affected with his speed was not a black hole. In fact there never was a black hole. That beholder looking dude (DnD Beholder, not the comic book character) explains that the machine would create a black hole AFTER completing its rotating around itself. Sonic simply stopped the machine's rotation, which caused it to jam up and implode.
The way the beholder explains it makes it clear that the black hole had not yet come into existence when Sonic intervened, making the first half of the feat completely meaningless.

2 Sonic didn't tank anything. And by "anything" I mean "anything meaningful". The walrus explains that causing the machine to jam up will cause it and its surroundings to implode. That implosion is what Sonic tanked, but exactly what magnitude said implosion had is neither stated nor hinted, making the second half of the feat completely meaningless as well. 

So yeah, we just spent the better part of like 4 pages talking about absolutely fucking nothing.


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> I don't really see the relation here, given that the speedforce is Flash's primary source of pow- oh fuck it, where's the damn comic?
> 
> <5 minutes later>
> 
> ...


If I were to do what you just did here, I would be ridiculed for... oh wait.

The machine was already generating the energy to create the black hole which was why they stated "it was too late", Sonic would have still needed the energy to cause the black hole to stop. Because the energy was already reaching its peak energy levels. So I don't know how that helps your case. Might want to go and read a bit more thoroughly there, 5 minutes might not be enough, buddy.

Sonic tanked the implosion of a machine that could unleash a Solar System Absorbing Black Hole. The energy source would STILL have that much power within it, and he absorbed said force with his speed. So you're still wrong.

And you've been wrong. Which is why I'm not trying to convince your asses anymore. It happened, believe what you want to believe.

Edit: Also adding this to the equation of whether Super Sonic is a multiversal Reality warper. - 

See 30A and B for details, and if you don't then you're ignorant and I won't debate with you anymore. You'll just be stupid.


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## SSBMonado (Feb 12, 2017)

Gomu said:


> The machine was already generating the energy to create the black hole which was why they stated "it was too late", Sonic would have still needed the energy to cause the black hole to stop.


So your word counts for more than the damn source material? Care to point out your name in the credits, then?
The villain very clearly states that the black hole would only be created after the process was complete. Moreover, he stated that the resulting spacetime rift is what would have created the black hole. I.e. the black hole would have been created through spacetime shenanigans, NOT through energy outputted by the machine.



> Sonic tanked the implosion of a machine that could unleash a Solar System Absorbing Black Hole. The energy source would STILL have that much power within it, and he absorbed said force with his speed. So you're still wrong.


Except the machine wasn't even going to create a black hole. Its purpose was described as ripping open a rift in spacetime, which in turn would have created a black hole.
Essentially, the machine was doing the space hax equivalent of cutting a hole in an airplane window. Other processes (air pressure in this analogy, spacetime shenanigans in the comic) would then have led to the desired end result (depressurization in the analogy, a black hole in the comic) on their own


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> So your word counts for more than the damn source material? Care to point out your name in the credits, then?
> The villain very clearly states that the black hole would only be created after the process was complete. Moreover, he stated that the resulting spacetime rift is what would have created the black hole. I.e. the black hole would have been created through spacetime shenanigans, NOT through energy outputted by the machine.
> 
> 
> ...


Except he was stopping the process. He ran reverse of the run of the process, and stopped the energy. That left over energy would still be enough to create the black hole. You can't say because it didn't make the black hole it didn't have that much energy as it was still on the verge of making that black hole.

That's what a fucking black hole is, it's a rip in space time. - 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-19822295


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## SSBMonado (Feb 12, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Except he was stopping the process. He ran reverse of the run of the process, and stopped the energy.


He stopped the damn dial from moving. That's all the comic states. And again, nowhere was it stated that the dial was supplying the energy to create the black hole. On the contrary, even, as I have already explained.



> That left over energy would still be enough to create the black hole. You can't say because it didn't make the black hole it didn't have that much energy as it was still on the verge of making that black hole.


Again, the dial wasn't supplying the energy to create the black hole



> That's what a fucking black hole is, it's a rip in space time. -
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-19822295


And your point is...? You're basically saying that the villain's plan was to create a black hole in order to create a different black hole. Yeah, that's not redundant at all.
Whatever definition you wish to use IRL, the fact is that the terms "spacetime rift" and "black hole" were not regarded as the same thing by the villain of that comic. 


And another problem:
Even had the process been completed, the dial would not have created a black hole. Why? Because  isn't a fucking black hole. It appears to be a vastly oversized X-zone spell from Final Fantasy 6 or any other generic "hole in space" from in any number of other pieces of fiction, none of which we count as actual black holes. 

The only reason we give actual black holes SS level DC is because they are able to exert that level of energy on their own through their own gravity. In cases like this where a black hole isn't a superdense object but a simple hole in the sky, that justification doesn't work any more.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> He stopped the damn dial from moving. That's all the comic states. And again, nowhere was it stated that the dial was supplying the energy to create the black hole. On the contrary, even, as I have already explained.


 - For the third time I think I've said this.



SSBMonado said:


> Again, the dial wasn't supplying the energy to create the black hole


See the fucking picture.



SSBMonado said:


> And your point is...? You're basically saying that the villain's plan was to create a black hole in order to create a different black hole. Yeah, that's not redundant at all.
> Whatever definition you wish to use IRL, the fact is that the terms "spacetime rift" and "black hole" were not regarded as the same thing by the villain of that comic.


The rift would still need the energy to create a fucking black hole.

There's no problem I see. The rift would have had the energy to envelop the world into a black hole, the rift would have grown to the size of the solar system. The rift would have still became a black hole, and that rift would still need the energy to CREATE that black hole. The Quantum Dial has a power source that generates enough energy to create a rift that creates the process of a black hole. You're just arguing what you want here, the rift is made to create a black hole, the rift is powered by enough force to create that same black hole.


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## xenos5 (Feb 12, 2017)

Gomu said:


> There's no problem I see. The rift would have had the energy to envelop the world into a black hole, the rift would have grown to the size of the solar system. The rift would have still became a black hole, and that rift would still need the energy to CREATE that black hole. The Quantum Dial has a power source that generates enough energy to create a rift that creates the process of a black hole. You're just arguing what you want here, the rift is made to create a black hole, the rift is powered by enough force to create that same black hole.



Creating a space-time rift is something accomplished through hax, not power. The machine creating the space-time rift would in no way scale to the power of the black-hole. It's more like me using soul hax to destroy the soul of a powerful character and that character's power being released upon their soul being destroyed and destroying a bunch of shit as a side effect than any of the analogies you gave.


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Creating a space-time rift is something accomplished through hax, not power. The machine creating the space-time rift would in no way scale to the power of the black-hole. It's more like me using soul hax to destroy the soul of a powerful character and that character's power being released upon their soul being destroyed and destroying a bunch of shit as a side effect than any of the analogies you gave.


If you don't read that goddamn picture stating that the Quantum Dial was capable of destroying the Solar System...


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## SSBMonado (Feb 12, 2017)

Gomu said:


> - For the third time I think I've said this.


Sure the dial is capable of wiping out the solar system - by creating a rift that would then cause a fake black hole to happen. 
A vague description in a recap doesn't trump actual on-panel exposition by knowledgeable characters. 



> There's no problem I see. The rift would have had the energy to envelop the world into a black hole, the rift would have grown to the size of the solar system. The rift would have still became a black hole, and that rift would still need the energy to CREATE that black hole. The Quantum Dial has a power source that generates enough energy to create a rift that creates the process of a black hole. You're just arguing what you want here, the rift is made to create a black hole, the rift is powered by enough force to create that same black hole.


As Xenos already said, you can't quantify the creation of this type of rift, because ripping a hole into space is hax by definition. 

So that rift would have eventually grown big enough to suck up the whole solar system. Does that mean its creation required SS level energy? NO! Because creating a spacetime rift is hax no matter how big you make it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> Sure the dial is capable of wiping out the solar system - by creating a rift that would then cause a fake black hole to happen.
> A vague description in a recap doesn't trump actual on-panel exposition by knowledgeable characters.
> 
> 
> ...


They specifically say the dial because the dial itself generates enough energy to induce the rift that would have made the black hole, bro. You can't discount that. The Quantum Dial had enough energy to do that, you keep trying to discount what was stated by WORD OF GOD itself. That the Quantum Dial's rift had enough energy to cause a black hole. Which is what I'm saying. Sonic not only used his speed to induce a reversal of this effect, he also tanked that force at ground zero.


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## SSBMonado (Feb 12, 2017)

Gomu said:


> They specifically say the dial because the dial itself generates enough energy to induce the rift that would have made the black hole, bro. You can't discount that. The Quantum Dial had enough energy to do that, you keep trying to discount what was stated by WORD OF GOD itself. That the Quantum Dial's rift had enough energy to cause a black hole. Which is what I'm saying. Sonic not only used his speed to induce a reversal of this effect, he also tanked that force at ground zero.


Except your precious word of god makes no mention of energy of any kind. All it says is that the dial can wipe out the solar system. It does not dispute the fact that it would wipe out the solar system by creating a rift through hax. 

Get it through that thick skull of yours. Creating a rift in spacetime is only possible through hax, not conventional energy.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> Except your precious word of god makes no mention of energy of any kind. All it says is that the dial can wipe out the solar system. It does not dispute the fact that it would wipe out the solar system by creating a rift through hax.
> 
> Get it through that thick skull of yours. Creating a rift in spacetime is only possible through hax, not conventional energy.


... So now you don't think a piece of machinery... has any power source...


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## SSBMonado (Feb 12, 2017)

Gomu said:


> ... So now you don't think a piece of machinery... has any power source...


I'm still here. Just so you know when you're done attacking that straw man.

Of course the stupid machine has some kind of power source, and it could run on hamster wheels for all the difference it makes.
Assuming it runs on solar system level power or anything even close to it would be an absolutely asinine leap, because for the umpteenth time: Conventional energy and hax are not related


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## twirdman (Feb 12, 2017)

Gomu said:


> ... So now you don't think a piece of machinery... has any power source...



Just because it has a power source it doesn't mean that power source is capable of generating the energy of the stated destruction when it was said hax were responsible for the destruction.  For instance say a character is capable of opening a rift to a dimension of pure antimatter that machine is theoretically capable of destroying the entire universe.  If I destroy that machine, before it creates the rift, and survive the destruction it does not mean I have universal DC nor do I have universal durability.


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> I'm still here. Just so you know when you're done attacking that straw man.
> 
> Of course the stupid machine has some kind of power source, and it could run on hamster wheels for all the difference it makes.
> Assuming it runs on solar system level power or anything even close to it would be an absolutely asinine leap, because for the umpteenth time: Conventional energy and hax are not related





twirdman said:


> Just because it has a power source it doesn't mean that power source is capable of generating the energy of the stated destruction when it was said hax were responsible for the destruction.  For instance say a character is capable of opening a rift to a dimension of pure antimatter that machine is theoretically capable of destroying the entire universe.  If I destroy that machine, before it creates the rift, and survive the destruction it does not mean I have universal DC nor do I have universal durability.




Just gonna keep posting this until you get it. The Quantum Dial itself had the power to destroy the solar system by creating the rift that made the black hole. So, just get ready for me to post this multiple times when you say something stupid.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## SSBMonado (Feb 12, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Just gonna keep posting this until you get it. The Quantum Dial itself had the power to destroy the solar system by creating the rift that made the black hole. So, just get ready for me to post this multiple times when you say something stupid.


Except nobody is denying any of this. The dial has the power to destroy a solar system - through hax. 
Your precious chapter summery doesn't imply that the dial destroys shit through conventional force, no matter how desperate you may be to have your wank justified.


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> Except nobody is denying any of this. The dial has the power to destroy a solar system - through hax.
> Your precious chapter summery doesn't imply that the dial destroys shit through conventional force, no matter how desperate you may be to have your wank justified.


It's a piece of machinery... that can make a rift... that can cause a black hole. it would have to have the energy to perform that feat. That energy does not just come from nowhere...

Yeah, wanking... that's cute. Find out what wanking is when I don't have a piece of evidence that says "capable of wiping out a solar system" and "only Sonic had the "power" to stop it".


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## xenos5 (Feb 12, 2017)

Gomu said:


> It's a piece of machinery... that can make a rift... that can cause a black hole. it would have to have the energy to perform that feat. That energy does not just come from nowhere...
> 
> Yeah, wanking... that's cute. Find out what wanking is when I don't have a piece of evidence that says "capable of wiping out a solar system" and "only Sonic had the "power" to stop it".



Having enough energy to do hax (creating a rift)=/= having enough energy to perform the same destruction the hax does. If the machine could just destroy the solar system on its own what fucking point would there be to using a rift rather than cutting out the middleman and just using an energy beam or some shit like that.

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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Having enough energy to do hax (creating a rift)=/= having enough energy to perform the same destruction the hax does. If the machine could just destroy the solar system on its own what fucking point would there be to using a rift rather than cutting out the middleman and just using an energy beam or some shit like that.


Except Word of God stated that it did...


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## xenos5 (Feb 12, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Except Word of God stated that it did...



You're taking the most literal interpretation of the statement and taking it as fact rather than matching the interpretation of the statement with what actually happens. It has "solar system level power" only through the most indirect roundabout means rather than directly having it and that's all that matters.

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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)




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## xenos5 (Feb 12, 2017)

Your interpretation =/= the facts. You can spam that as much as you like, it won't change anything.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Your interpretation =/= the facts. You can spam that as much as you like, it won't change anything.


The facts are that the Word of God states that that is the capacity of the machine, not the black hole itself. Stop it.


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## xenos5 (Feb 12, 2017)

Gomu said:


> The facts are that the Word of God states that that is the capacity of the machine, not the black hole itself. Stop it.



You are using a faulty interpretation of the statement you call word of god. Your interpretation is not a fact.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> You are using a faulty interpretation of the statement you call word of god. Your interpretation is not a fact.


No, because Sonic was flung to another fucking galaxy by the energy which the machine held. Which is also fucking stated in the picture. You're literally trying to dictate what the fucking Word of God means, you don't even read the fucking comics and you're doing it. Stop it.


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## xenos5 (Feb 12, 2017)

Gomu said:


> No, because Sonic was flung to another fucking galaxy by the energy which the machine held. Which is also fucking stated in the picture. You're literally trying to dictate what the fucking Word of God means, you don't even read the fucking comics and you're doing it. Stop it.



Being flung to a far off place in an unknown timeframe isn't a solar system level feat.


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Being flung to a far off place in an unknown timeframe isn't a solar system level feat.


That's not the fucking point. The point is, he took that energy to the face. The amount of energy which created a rift that could create a black hole that was large enough to engulf the . Doesn't matter if that isn't a solar system level feat (though one day I'd like to get that calculated, and it's implied to be in a short period of time at that).

See you don't read shit. You know Dragon Ball. You have a bias towards Dragon Ball. You've proven that after I tried to state that Super Sonic was Multiversal level and even showed why. I have nothing to prove with you. I don't even know why I'm having a back and forth with you.

You can't interpret something you don't know about and twist it. It was the Quantum Dial that made the rift. The Quantum Dial houses the energy to make that rift. It was stated by Word of God that the weapon itself was what was generating the power to do so. They gave it a Destructive Capacity. You can't say that it "came from nothing" because it was hax. And it was hax developed as machinery it was powered by something, Sonic took that something to the face and didn't die.

That's all the explanation I need. Super Sonic beats Dragonball, if you continue to deny that, then that's a "you" problem. But Sonic is a Solar System Buster and Tanker because it was stated by Word of God that that was the feat he performed by using his own power to perform it (speed or not, you still needed that energy), the Quantum Dial had a Solar Systems capacity of energy. That's it. That's all. So if you ever make this thread again, be ready for me to do this again and again. If will be done each and every fucking time.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## xenos5 (Feb 12, 2017)

Gomu said:


> That's not the fucking point. The point is, he took that energy to the face. *The amount of energy which created a rift* that could create a black hole that was large enough to engulf the . Doesn't matter if that isn't a solar system level feat (though one day I'd like to get that calculated, and it's implied to be in a short period of time at that).



The amount of energy to create a rift in space-time always is and always will be unquantifiable because it is HAX. It doesn't matter how much destructive power the rift shows the thing that creates it does not have the same level of power.



Gomu said:


> You've proven that after I tried to state that Super Sonic was Multiversal level and even showed why. I have nothing to prove with you. I don't even know why I'm having a back and forth with you.



I'm not any different than any other person in this thread who won't accept your bullshit claims. You can try pushing it on some other forum but the OBD as a whole ain't buying that shit. If you're going to keep on trying to peddle the same shit here you're going to keep on getting denied. So maybe the OBD isn't the place for you.



Gomu said:


> So if you ever make this thread again



I didn't make this thread in the first place. What the fuck are you talking about?


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## Freddy Mercury (Feb 12, 2017)

>10 pages

Really?


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

Freddie Mercury said:


> >10 pages
> 
> Really?


You know I never give up. It's a trait of mine to be as annoying as possible.


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## Freddy Mercury (Feb 12, 2017)

Also Archie is multiversal

Reactions: Like 2


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> The amount of energy to create a rift in space-time always is and always will be unquantifiable because it is HAX. It doesn't matter how much destructive power the rift shows the thing that creates it does not have the same level of power.
> 
> I'm not any different than any other person in this thread who won't accept your bullshit claims. You can try pushing it on some other forum but the OBD as a whole ain't buying that shit. If you're going to keep on trying to peddle the same shit here you're going to keep on getting denied. So maybe the OBD isn't the place for you.
> 
> I didn't make this thread in the first place. What the fuck are you talking about?


It does, because it generates the black hole, as stated by the word of god.

Bullshit claims, Word of God stated that the Super Genesis Wave fucked the old continuity and Sonic fixed it and made a new one.

That has nothing to do with you. Just to all the stupid naysayers.


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## xenos5 (Feb 12, 2017)

Gomu said:


> It does, because it generates the black hole, as stated by the word of god.
> 
> Bullshit claims, Word of God stated that the Super Genesis Wave fucked the old continuity and Sonic fixed it and made a new one.
> 
> That has nothing to do with you. Just to all the stupid naysayers.



It doesn't take a specific amount of energy to generate hax and the rift is hax. The rift generates the "black hole". If the machine could use that much power on its own there would be no point to using a rift. It cannot replicate the destructive power the rift has on its own so it has to create the rift.


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> It doesn't take a specific amount of energy to generate hax and the rift is hax. The rift generates the "black hole". If the machine could use that much power on its own there would be no point to using a rift. It cannot replicate the destructive power the rift has on its own so it has to create the rift.


Except Word of God says it is the reason why the black hole was created in the first place. Do I need to show the picture again. Maybe I need to place a rectangle around the words.


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## Freddy Mercury (Feb 12, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> It doesn't take a specific amount of energy to generate hax and the rift is hax. The rift generates the "black hole". If the machine could use that much power on its own there would be no point to using a rift. It cannot replicate the destructive power the rift has on its own so it has to create the rift.



Then where is the energy coming from?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 12, 2017)

Gomu said:


> It's a trait of mine to be as annoying as possible.



that's one thing people will agree with you on

Reactions: Agree 7 | Funny 3


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> that's one thing people will agree with you on


Only to downplayers though. When people make actual good points, I tend to try not to annoy them. Then again you guys know what it means to annoy others when you don't get your way as well.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## twirdman (Feb 12, 2017)

Freddie Mercury said:


> Then where is the energy coming from?



The energy comes from the machine but the energy is not sufficient to generate a solar system level attack.  It uses hax to do something that allows it to destroy more than it would through raw energy alone.

Say you have a device that is capable of doing two things first using all its energy to release a laser beam and second transmuting anything it touches to antimatter using some science magic woo.  Being able to transmute the Earth to antimatter doesn't mean someone who survives the laser beam is capable of surviving a star busting attack.


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## xenos5 (Feb 12, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Except Word of God says it is the reason why the black hole was created in the first place. Do I need to show the picture again. Maybe I need to place a rectangle around the words.



You're the one not getting things here. Statements are supporting evidence meant to go with other pieces of visual evidence and other statements. The other statements and visuals support the statement meaning the machine had the power to create the rift and the rift had the power to create the "black hole". You are taking a statement in a void and ignoring all evidence that supports it having a different interpretation than the one you want it to have. That is extremely dishonest.



Freddie Mercury said:


> Then where is the energy coming from?



In DBS SSR Black created a space-time rift with a slash from his energy scythe. An endless amount of clones each with universe level+ DC/durability (they could hurt SSB Goku and Vegeta) kept coming out of the rift. Does Black have unlimited power? Hell no. The rift's power =/= the power of the one or thing who created the rift. This is pretty much the same.

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## Fang (Feb 12, 2017)

Where's the multiversal feats?


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> You're the one not getting things here. Statements are supporting evidence meant to go with other pieces of visual evidence and other statements. The other statements and visuals support the statement meaning the machine had the power to create the rift and the rift had the power to create the "black hole". You are taking a statement in a void and ignoring all evidence that supports it having a different interpretation than the one you want it to have. That is extremely dishonest.


Once again, Word of God stated it. Not me. I don't need to twist their words to make shit work for me. You're doing it.


xenos5 said:


> In DBS SSJR Black created a space-time rift with a slash from his energy scythe. An endless amount of clones each with universe level+ DC/durability (they could hurt SSB Goku and Vegeta) kept coming out of the rift. Does Black have unlimited power? Hell no. The rift's power =/= the power of the one or thing who created the rift. This is pretty much the same.


The clones were coming because Black commanded them to come. They stopped after he stopped commanding them to. He was the one that created the tear in space time. They followed his directions. He made them.


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## xenos5 (Feb 12, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Once again, Word of God stated it. Not me. I don't need to *twist their words to make shit work for me.* You're doing it.



That is exactly what you're doing. And I like how you ignored how I said that you can't take one piece of evidence in a void but have to see how it fits with other evidence. That was my main point. 



Gomu said:


> The clones were coming because Black commanded them to come. They stopped after he stopped commanding them to. He was the one that created the tear in space time. They followed his directions. He made them.



The rift in space-time connected to an already existing dimension and Black was able to manipulate that already existing energy that came out of the dimension. The clones were not created by him. If Black could create an infinite amount of universe level+ clones he'd be practically multiverse level. That'd be asinine.


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> That is exactly what you're doing. And I like how you ignored how I said that you can't take one piece of evidence in a void but have to see how it fits with other evidence. That was my main point.


No... I can take a piece of evidence from the people who create the fucking comic though.



xenos5 said:


> The rift in space-time connected to an already existing dimension and Black was able to manipulate that already existing energy that came out of the dimension. The clones were not created by him. If Black could create an infinite amount of universe level+ clones he'd be practically multiverse level. That'd be asinine.


No it wouldn't, he said he didn't know what it was. Characters in DB have been shown affecting space-time these days, Vegeta powering up for example caused a dimensional explosion, Goku cracks open a theoretical plane of existence by destroying the Time-Skipped Dimension of Hit, etc. That's within their power. And has been since Goku gaining SSG. Black just used said abilities in a new way.

Btw you still don't believe Super Sonic is Multiversal. Even though he fought against Multi-Universal foes as well, right? So he'd still win.


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## xenos5 (Feb 12, 2017)

Gomu said:


> No... I can take a piece of evidence from the people who create the fucking comic though.



You're ignoring all the other evidence "from the people create the fucking comic though". One piece of evidence doesn't hold superiority to every other statement or visual evidence. They form a cohesive whole.



Gomu said:


> No it wouldn't, he said he didn't know what it was. Characters in DB have been shown affecting space-time these days, Vegeta powering up for example caused a dimensional explosion, Goku cracks open a theoretical plane of existence by destroying the Time-Skipped Dimension of Hit, etc. That's within their power. And has been since Goku gaining SSG. Black just used said abilities in a new way.



An infinite amount of universe level+ clones takes a fuckton of power to create. Making a rift through space-time slicing hax doesn't. It just takes hax. The rift created the clones. Black didn't and it would be beyond his power to create that many clones on that level of power.


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## NightmareCinema (Feb 12, 2017)

Fang said:


> Where's the multiversal feats?


If the Space Marine thread's anything to go by, there are none.

Hell, if all the threads we had back in 2011 were anything to go by, they don't exist.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> You're ignoring all the other evidence "from the people create the fucking comic though". One piece of evidence doesn't hold superiority to every other statement or visual evidence. They form a cohesive whole.
> 
> 
> 
> An infinite amount of universe level+ clones takes a fuckton of power to create. Making a rift through space-time slicing hax doesn't. It just takes hax. The rift created the clones. Black didn't and it would be beyond his power to create that many clones on that level of power.


I didn't ignore anything. The rift had the energy to create the fucking black hole. That should have been the end of the fucking discussion.

I could care less about that.

You didn't answer my question.


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> If the Space Marine thread's anything to go by, there are none.
> 
> Hell, if all the threads we had back in 2011 were anything to go by, they don't exist.


And that's the problem here. You can't say feats don't exist because you don't want them to, bro. Thanks for showing that bias though.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Feb 12, 2017)

Oh boy I can argue for Multiversal Guilty Gear now since they created a Microverse in it and it was going to destroy everything if it wasn't contained.

Happy Day, Happy day.

Reactions: Funny 10


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## xenos5 (Feb 12, 2017)

Gomu said:


> I didn't ignore anything. The rift had the energy to create the fucking black hole. That should have been the end of the fucking discussion.
> 
> I could care less about that.
> 
> You didn't answer my question.



SSBmonado read the comic and presented his own evidence that contradicted the statement meaning what you thought it meant. That's where the discussion should've ended.


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> SSBmonado read the comic and presented his own evidence that contradicted the statement meaning what you thought it meant. That's where the discussion should've ended.


He didn't present any evidence, that's the thing. He only stated words. He tried to make the rifts energy seem insignificant when it kicks start the process, it still needs enough energy to perform it. I got all the time in the world to continuously argue this with you.


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## xenos5 (Feb 12, 2017)

Gomu said:


> He didn't present any evidence, that's the thing. He only stated words. He tried to make the rifts energy seem insignificant when it kicks start the process, it still needs enough energy to perform it. *I got all the time in the world to continuously argue this with you.*



I don't have any more time I want to waste on you. Last time i'll give you this helpful advice. If you want your shit to be accepted this is not the forum for you. You'd have better luck pushing it on a forum like MvC or comicvine.


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## NightmareCinema (Feb 12, 2017)

Gomu said:


> And that's the problem here. You can't say feats don't exist because you don't want them to, bro. Thanks for showing that bias though.



Oh, you mean the feats that everyone and their mother debunked back in 2011 when it was found out that the people pushing for them took them out of context as well as lacking a skill known as READING COMPREHENSION?

Yeah, sure. Continue with this farce, though. The OBD needs someone to laugh at after Tonathan's meltdown got him banned.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> I don't have any more time I want to waste on you. Last time i'll give you this helpful advice. If you want your shit to be accepted this is not the forum for you. You'd have better luck pushing it on a forum like MvC or comicvine.


I really don't care. I like the faces coming in stating something isn't true when it is. And the blatant bastards saying it "doesn't exist", like a certain person has just done. It's fun for me. And you're going to hear a lot more from me if the situation should come up again. That's all I'm saying. Especially if it's Dragon Ball.

Btw, does Sonic win or not? You didn't answer the question properly.


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Oh, you mean the feats that everyone and their mother debunked back in 2011 when it was found out that the people pushing for them took them out of context as well as lacking a skill known as READING COMPREHENSION?
> 
> Yeah, sure. Continue with this farce, though. The OBD needs someone to laugh at after Tonathan's meltdown got him banned.


What feats did they debunk? Last I checked, Mammoth Mogul was crushing millions of multi-universes, Enerjak was deatomizing people, Sonic was still moving far above just MFTL, etc, etc. Nothing has changed. You said they didn't exist when they do.


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## Fang (Feb 12, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> If the Space Marine thread's anything to go by, there are none.
> 
> Hell, if all the threads we had back in 2011 were anything to go by, they don't exist.



So Tonathan all over again.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1 | Winner 4


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## NightmareCinema (Feb 12, 2017)

Fang said:


> So Tonathan all over again.


Pretty much, yeah.


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

Yep, just imagine something doesn't exist..... that's the way.


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## Freddy Mercury (Feb 12, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Oh, you mean the feats that everyone and their mother debunked back in 2011 when it was found out that the people pushing for them took them out of context as well as lacking a skill known as READING COMPREHENSION?
> 
> Yeah, sure. Continue with this farce, though. The OBD needs someone to laugh at after Tonathan's meltdown got him banned.



Yeah you clearly don't remember shit lol.

What was debunked was implication that M.M crushed all of the zones/universes at once, which would make him a high multiversal threat. In the end people decided that because it was no proper timeframe that we could only assume he was crushing the bare minimum of two at once. Which in the end still makes him multiversal, just not as high up in the tier.

Titan Tails however flat out reversed everything M.M did all at once on panel, and still remains the top dog of Archieverse with characters like Super Sonic, Hyper Knuckles, Master Mogul and Enerjak falling behind.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## twirdman (Feb 12, 2017)

Gomu said:


> What feats did they debunk? Last I checked, Mammoth Mogul was crushing millions of multi-universes,* Enerjak was deatomizing people*, *Sonic was still moving far above just MFTL*, etc, etc. Nothing has changed. You said they didn't exist when they do.



Deatomizing people doesn't sound very impressive at all.  It takes 3 gigajoules to vaporize a human sized enemy that is less than 1 ton of TNT equivalent it is a joke to basically anyone in anything significant.  Faster than MFTL is like saying below sub zero it has no freaking meaning.


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## Freddy Mercury (Feb 12, 2017)

Hating Gomu or the Sonic fanbase is one thing, but let's not act like Archie isn't a powerful verse.

Reactions: Like 2


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## OneSimpleAnime (Feb 12, 2017)

Freddie Mercury said:


> Also Archie is multiversal


yea the top tiers are, like Titan tails and Mammoth Mogul


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

twirdman said:


> Deatomizing people doesn't sound very impressive at all.  It takes 3 gigajoules to vaporize a human sized enemy that is less than 1 ton of TNT equivalent it is a joke to basically anyone in anything significant.  Faster than MFTL is like saying below sub zero it has no freaking meaning.


Except he could do it to almost anyone he wished to. OK.


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

Freddie Mercury said:


> Yeah you clearly don't remember shit lol.
> 
> What was debunked was implication that M.M crushed all of the zones/universes at once, which would make him a high multiversal threat. In the end people decided that because it was no proper timeframe that we could only assuming he was crushing the bare minimum of two at once. Which in the end still makes him multiversal, just not as high up in the tier.
> 
> Titan Tails however flat out reversed everything M.M did all at once on panel, and still remains the top dog of Archieverse with characters like Super Sonic, Hyper Knuckles, Master Mogul and Enerjak falling behind.


They dream it doesn't exist. None of it exists. By extension if I dream JJBA, Guilty Gear, DB, and nothing that's well liked exist, I'd be completely within my scope. Luckily I'm not high.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Merlight (Feb 12, 2017)

Freddie Mercury said:


> What was debunked was implication that M.M crushed all of the zones/universes at once, which would make him a high multiversal threat. In the end people decided that because it was no proper timeframe that we could only assuming he was crushing the bare minimum of two at once. Which in the end still makes him multiversal, just not as high up in the tier.
> 
> Titan Tails however flat out reversed everything M.M did all at once on panel, and still remains the top dog of Archieverse with characters like Super Sonic, Hyper Knuckles, Master Mogul and Enerjak falling behind.



IIRC, they show the parallel universes on tv screens and they each turn to black pretty quickly. So some degree of multiversal, ja.  

The black hole shit is not quantifiable; summed up the argument against it is the energy to create a space-time rift is not fucking requiring any sort of energy beyond the explanation of lolhax. I'm gonna have to agree here based on that.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Nep Heart (Feb 12, 2017)

Like, is there any other feats to which base Sonic has performed or powerscales to anywhere on that level? Having multiple feats on a similar level is really handy to corroborate with each and have some nice consistency that can ward off neysayers. It also singles out outliers in the process.

Either way, I feel the whole rift generator (which apparently isn't even a scientifically accurate black hole as I'm discovering) is off topic since this thread is about Super Sonic, whom I agreed would wipe out pre-Super DBverse easily given there has been showings of Zone busting containing galaxies in them that Super Sonic scales to. At least galaxy level is certain.


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Like, is there any other feats to which base Sonic has performed or powerscales to anywhere on that level? Having multiple feats on a similar level is really handy to corroborate with each and have some nice consistency that can ward off neysayers. It also singles out outliers in the process.
> 
> Either way, I feel the whole rift generator (which apparently isn't even a scientifically accurate black hole as I'm discovering) is off topic since this thread is about Super Sonic, whom I agreed would wipe out pre-Super DBverse easily given there has been showings of Zone busting containing galaxies in them that Super Sonic scales to. At least galaxy level is certain.


Things like tanking the Ultimate Annihilator and whatnot, but I didn't use those feats as they are more controversial.


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## Gomu (Feb 12, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Like, is there any other feats to which base Sonic has performed or powerscales to anywhere on that level? Having multiple feats on a similar level is really handy to corroborate with each and have some nice consistency that can ward off neysayers. It also singles out outliers in the process.
> 
> Either way, I feel the whole rift generator (which apparently isn't even a scientifically accurate black hole as I'm discovering) is off topic since this thread is about Super Sonic, whom I agreed would wipe out pre-Super DBverse easily given there has been showings of Zone busting containing galaxies in them that Super Sonic scales to. At least galaxy level is certain.


Btw did you ever look at my thread, Ian Flynn stated that the Super Genesis Wave destroyed the old multiverse and Sonic fixed it with Chaos Energy.


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## Nep Heart (Feb 13, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Things like tanking the Ultimate Annihilator and whatnot, but I didn't use those feats as they are more controversial.



 Why is that the case?



Gomu said:


> Btw did you ever look at my thread, Ian Flynn stated that the Super Genesis Wave destroyed the old multiverse and Sonic fixed it with Chaos Energy.



 I might give it a good look once I buy my new PC, which I am likely getting towards the end of the month. Kinda difficult to give stuff an extensive look on phone.


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## Gomu (Feb 13, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Why is that the case?
> 
> 
> 
> I might give it a good look once I buy my new PC, which I am likely getting towards the end of the month. Kinda difficult to give stuff an extensive look on phone.


It basically erases things from existence. It was implied to be able to erase everything from existence and also removed the barriers around the multiverse from the Cosmic Interstate meaning easier travel, those barriers shielded others from being able to move throughout the multiverse (Sonic and all the other Sonic's could do so thanks to Zonic the Zone Cop being able to control what goes in or out of it having helped Sonic on the sidelines). So that's damn controversial and even I have skepticism on it. He tanked it but Robotnik didn't basically.

 - If you can see that from your phone.

And It's alright, at least you're not saying it's shit and being dogmatic about it.


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## Archetype (Feb 14, 2017)

Ok. I've read over this entire thread, and I made an account just to say this.

I have a feat that I'm surprised no one has brought up yet. Just before Tails became Titan Tails in issue 150. Master Mogul tried to blast Tails, but Sonic pushed him out of the way and got hit instead. Sonic was KO'd but thought to be dead. If Mogul's attack potency is Universe to low Multiverse like some others have stated earlier in this thread. Then this is Sonic's best durability feat bar none. And because this feat was Sonic is his base form, Super Sonic would obviously be stronger. On top of all of that, this feat could possibly scale to Enerjak as well.


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## xenos5 (Feb 14, 2017)

Archetype said:


> Ok. I've read over this entire thread, and I made an account just to say this.
> 
> I have a feat that I'm surprised no one has brought up yet. Just before Tails became Titan Tails in issue 150. Master Mogul tried to blast Tails, but Sonic pushed him out of the way and got hit instead. Sonic was KO'd but thought to be dead. If Mogul's attack potency is Universe to low Multiverse like some others have stated earlier in this thread. Then this is Sonic's best durability feat bar none. And because this feat was Sonic is his base form, Super Sonic would obviously be stronger. On top of all of that, this feat could possibly scale to Enerjak as well.



You seem to be new to VS debating. It sounds like you haven't heard what an outlier is before. If it took a much more powerful form of Tails than any super form Sonic has shown to beat Master Mogul than you should know it's supreme bullshit for Base Sonic to be able to tank any attacks from Master Mogul. The feat is as invalid as Spiderman beating Firelord was.


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## Archetype (Feb 14, 2017)

I'm new to this site, but not new to the concept of vs debating. I know what an outlier is, Game Sonic, Shadow, and Silver scaling to Solaris is one. And Knuckles punching Sonic out of his super form is another. 

I never said Sonic tanked any of Mogul's attacks. Quite the opposite, one of Mogul's casual attacks KO'd Sonic, and both Tails and Mogul thought he was dead. Sonic didn't tank anything. But I fail to see how this feat is an outlier because Super Sonic displayed a multiverse level feat by trying to undo the Super Genesis Wave that caused the reboot. So it's not like this is the only feat on this level. 

I never said Sonic was equal to, or even close to Master Mogul in terms of overall power (He isn't). Just that Sonic's durability scales off of Mogul's attack potency for surviving one of his attacks. The comic makes it abundantly clear that Titan Tails and Mogul are easily the strongest in the verse.


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## xenos5 (Feb 14, 2017)

Archetype said:


> I'm new to this site, but not new to the concept of vs debating. I know what an outlier is, Game Sonic, Shadow, and Silver scaling to Solaris is one. And Knuckles punching Sonic out of his super form is another.
> 
> I never said Sonic tanked any of Mogul's attacks. Quite the opposite, one of Mogul's casual attacks KO'd Sonic, and both Tails and Mogul thought he was dead. Sonic didn't tank anything. But I fail to see how this feat is an outlier because Super Sonic displayed a multiverse level feat by trying to undo the Super Genesis Wave that caused the reboot. So it's not like this is the only feat on this level.
> 
> I never said Sonic was equal to, or even close to Master Mogul in terms of overall power (He isn't). Just that Sonic's durability scales off of Mogul's attack potency for surviving one of his attacks. The comic makes it abundantly clear that Titan Tails and Mogul are easily the strongest in the verse.



The genesis wave feat has been debunked and the OBD does not accept multiversal Super sonic. 

Base Sonic being the one surviving it on top of that makes it far too much of an outlier (I doubt he's been shown surviving anything near that level of power in any other instance) for it to not be ignored.


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## Archetype (Feb 14, 2017)

Ultra's blog didn't address the part of the Super Genesis Wave I'm talking about. It only said that Sonic's Chaos Control wasn't infinite. Which was something I already knew. Unless you're referring to something else. 

When I brought up the Genesis Wave feat, I meant to say the feat was that Sonic (mostly) undid it, and put the universe back together. Not that Sonic survived the event. The Super Genesis Wave feat happened at he very end of the Pre Genesis continuity and is effectively an end of series feat. It, and getting KO'd by Mogul are 2 of Pre Genesis Sonic's best feats. I'm not saying the series _can't_ have outliers. But I fail to see how a character could replicate a feat the continuity ended with. Especially if said character already has one other feat on a comparable level to it. Establishing some form of consistency. 

I apologize if I sound rude, but if Sonic had only one feat around that level, then I totally understand people claiming it to be an outlier. But that's not what we see here.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Feb 14, 2017)

Game Sonic, Shadow and Silver beating Solaris is barely an outlier, thanks to "lolChaos Emeralds work based off emotion" and it isnt a solo feat we can scale to any single Super form. it's only possible when you have all 3 of them.


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## xenos5 (Feb 14, 2017)

Archetype said:


> Ultra's blog didn't address the part of the Super Genesis Wave I'm talking about. *It only said that Sonic's Chaos Control wasn't infinite.* Which was something I already knew. Unless you're referring to something else.
> 
> When I brought up the Genesis Wave feat, I meant to say the feat was that Sonic (mostly) undid it, and put the universe back together. Not that Sonic survived the event. The Super Genesis Wave feat happened at he very end of the Pre Genesis continuity and is effectively an end of series feat. It, and getting KO'd by Mogul are 2 of Pre Genesis Sonic's best feats. I'm not saying the series _can't_ have outliers. But I fail to see how a character could replicate a feat the continuity ended with. Especially if said character already has one other feat on a comparable level to it. Establishing some form of consistency.
> 
> I apologize if I sound rude, but if Sonic had only one feat around that level, then I totally understand people claiming it to be an outlier. But that's not what we see here.



No it also mentioned that Sonic was able to control the already existing genesis wave through its connection to chaos energy. Manipulating an already existing powerful energy =/= having the same level of power on his own. 

Even if the genesis wave feat were to be accepted (which it won't be) base sonic performing something on the same level is nonsensical and would still be an outlier. Sonic's much weaker base form performing on the same level as his super form doesn't work


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> The genesis wave feat has been debunked and the OBD does not accept multiversal Super sonic.
> 
> Base Sonic being the one surviving it on top of that makes it far too much of an outlier (I doubt he's been shown surviving anything near that level of power in any other instance) for it to not be ignored.


I could care less what the OBD accepts by the way. The OBD doesn't accept evidence of the majority thinks a series is shit. That's always how the OBD rolls, it doesn't make it right. You still don't even believe Pre-Genesis Wave Sonic would beat Dragon Ball and he's still Multi-Universal from a feat of Mammoth Mogul crushing Millions of Universes. Which makes absolutely no sense.

That's why I don't give a damn.


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## Archetype (Feb 14, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> *No it also mentioned that Sonic was able to control the already existing genesis wave through its connection to chaos energy.* Manipulating an already existing powerful energy =/= having the same level of power on his own.
> 
> Even if the genesis wave feat were to be accepted (which it won't be) base sonic performing something on the same level is nonsensical and would still be an outlier. Sonic's much weaker base form performing on the same level as his super form doesn't work



Yes. You just proved my point. Sonic used Chaos Energy on a level strong enough to fix his universe. This shows he can control and/or manipulate chaos energy on that level. That's exactly what I said. I never argued it was something Sonic could do anytime, anywhere. I even agree with that this feat is for Sonic's hax, it wouldn't apply for any of his stats like his durability or speed. 

I'm not putting Base Sonic on the same level or above his Super Form. I never argued Base Sonic is equal to his Super Form. Only that Base Sonic scales to Mogul's AP. The Genesis Wave feat is actually a lot better than surviving a blast from Mogul. I only said that logically, Sonic's super form should be stronger than his base form. Not the other way around. I think you got what I said backwards. Base Sonic is clearly weaker than Super Sonic.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Feb 14, 2017)

Sonic could not fix the universe on his own. he needed the Genesis Wave to fix it. that means he cant normally output power on that scale.

Also Gomu, complaining about the way the OBD works while posting in the OBD, what a great way to get people to listen to you

Reactions: Like 2


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Sonic could not fix the universe on his own. he needed the Genesis Wave to fix it. that means he cant normally output power on that scale.
> 
> Also Gomu, complaining about the way the OBD works while posting in the OBD, what a great way to get people to listen to you


I don't give a damn.

Also it still takes that much energy to fix it and he was going to fix it again in World's unite. The old universe had already been shattered.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Archetype (Feb 14, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> *Sonic could not fix the universe on his own. he needed the Genesis Wave to fix it. that means he cant normally output power on that scale.*
> 
> Also Gomu, complaining about the way the OBD works while posting in the OBD, what a great way to get people to listen to you



I agree. Sonic used the chaos energy that was there in addition to his own to recreate his universe. I never argued it was something he could do anytime, anywhere. Only that his control over chaos energy allowed him to remake his universe.


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

Archetype said:


> I agree. Sonic used the chaos energy that was there in addition to his own to recreate his universe. I never argued it was something he could do anytime, anywhere. Only that his control over chaos energy allowed him to remake his universe.


Chaos Energy extends to physical attributes, it can be used like ki in Dragon Ball to condense that energy into impacts. Knuckles uses it, Shadow uses it, even Chip uses it, etc, just not on the level of their Super Forms. Chaos Energy is a reality warping force that also has the ability to increase and magnify the force of impacts, so they would still be Multiversal.


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## Archetype (Feb 14, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Chaos Energy extends to physical attributes, it can be used like ki in Dragon Ball to condense that energy into impacts. Knuckles uses it, Shadow uses it, even Chip uses it, etc, just not on the level of their Super Forms. Chaos Energy is a reality warping force that also has the ability to increase and magnify the force of impacts, so they would still be Multiversal.



Oh, I'm aware of how chaos energy can be used. I just want to prove Sonic can manipulate chaos energy (wether it be his, someone else's, or both) to at least recreate his universe. If I can get that point across, I'm happy.


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

Archetype said:


> Oh, I'm aware of how chaos energy can be used. I just want to prove Sonic can manipulate chaos energy (wether it be his, someone else's, or both) to at least recreate his universe. If I can get that point across, I'm happy.


They don't care about that. They vomit at the thought of a Furry being stronger than a bunch of other universes. Nothing was "debunked" they just don't like the evidence.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## twirdman (Feb 14, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Chaos Energy extends to physical attributes, it can be used like ki in Dragon Ball to condense that energy into impacts. Knuckles uses it, Shadow uses it, even Chip uses it, etc, just not on the level of their Super Forms. Chaos Energy is a reality warping force that also has the ability to increase and magnify the force of impacts, so they would still be Multiversal.



Just because Chaos energy can be used to do those things and they can manipulate a large amount of chaos energy doesn't mean they have such energy at their disposal at all times.  Trying to claim that is like trying to claim the Charmed Ones are universal because they have manipulated universal level powers before.  It is asinine.


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

twirdman said:


> Just because Chaos energy can be used to do those things and they can manipulate a large amount of chaos energy doesn't mean they have such energy at their disposal at all times.  Trying to claim that is like trying to claim the Charmed Ones are universal because they have manipulated universal level powers before.  It is asinine.


Except the Multiversal Power is strictly on Super forms. And the 7 Chaos Emeralds were the main sources that powered the Super Genesis Wave. How does Super Sonic come into being again, do you know or do I have to explain that.


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## Archetype (Feb 14, 2017)

Gomu said:


> They don't care about that. They vomit at the thought of a Furry being stronger than a bunch of other universes. Nothing was "debunked" they just don't like the evidence.



Not sure I agree with all of that. Some of the feats aren't as impressive as people claim. Like the black hole machine being stopped by Sonic's speed before it could actually make a black hole. But I know Sonic getting shot by Mogul and Sonic using chaos energy to repair his universe are pretty impressive. And a slew of early Archie feats like the Cosmic Interstate Highway don't have good arguments against them. (In my opinion) As they usually devolve to something along the lines "lol toonforce." And don't really address the feat in question. But I don't want to stray too far off topic.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

Archetype said:


> Not sure I agree with all of that. Some of the feats aren't as impressive as people claim. Like the black hole machine being stopped by Sonic's speed before it could actually make a black hole. But I know Sonic getting shot by Mogul and Sonic using chaos energy to repair his universe are pretty impressive. And a slew of early Archie feats like the Cosmic Interstate Highway don't have good arguments against them. (In my opinion) As they usually devolve to something along the lines "lol toonforce." And don't really address the feat in question. But I don't want to stray too far off topic.


It's not straying from the topic. Sonic is far faster than DB characters, and far superior in DC, he wins 10 times out of 10. Hakai won't affect him, and he could just stop time and kill them that way.


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## Archetype (Feb 14, 2017)

Gomu said:


> It's not straying from the topic. Sonic is far faster than DB characters, and far superior in DC, he wins 10 times out of 10. Hakai won't affect him, and he could just stop time and kill them that way.



By DB characters. Do you mean Original Dragonball, DBZ, or Super?


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

Archetype said:


> By DB characters. Do you mean Original Dragonball, DBZ, or Super?


Doesn't matter. He's faster than all of them.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Feb 14, 2017)

Sonic aint faster than shit, as pointed out multiple times here. The cosmic interstate is basically a shortcut for travel between universes


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## Archetype (Feb 14, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Doesn't matter. He's faster than all of them.



I don't full agree. Sonic is certainly faster than Original Dragonball and DBZ characters. But Super is where I hear characters start hitting speeds in the quadrillions of FTL or so. We could argue time stop could mitigate this, but I believe many DB Super characters to be faster. And how would Sonic be immune to Haki?


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## Archetype (Feb 14, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Sonic aint faster than shit, as pointed out multiple times here. The cosmic interstate is basically a shortcut for travel between universes



Yes. The shortcut is over a hundred thousand lightyears long. The feat kinda has to be some degree FTL no matter how you cut it.


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

Archetype said:


> Yes. The shortcut is over a hundred thousand lightyears long. The feat kinda has to be some degree FTL no matter how you cut it.


Low-balling it is Billions of times the Speed of Light, and he was weaker than he was later. It isn't an outlier as it was referenced numerous times.


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## Archetype (Feb 14, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Low-balling it is Billions of times the Speed of Light, and he was weaker than he was later. It isn't an outlier as it was referenced numerous times.



The Cosmic Interstate feat was referenced later? Do you know how many times and/or where it was? And where did you get billions of times FTL from lowballing it? What timeframe did you use?


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## twirdman (Feb 14, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Low-balling it is Billions of times the Speed of Light, and he was weaker than he was later. It isn't an outlier as it was referenced numerous times.



And billions of times would make him molasses against DBS top tiers.  The difference between that and calcs for DBS would be equivalent to the difference between my walking speed and the speed of light.


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## Archetype (Feb 14, 2017)

twirdman said:


> And billions of times would make him molasses against DBS top tiers.  The difference between that and calcs for DBS would be equivalent to the difference between my walking speed and the speed of light.



Yeah. Just as I thought. Super characters have a huge speed advantage.


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## twirdman (Feb 14, 2017)

Archetype said:


> Yeah. Just as I thought. Super characters have a huge speed advantage.



Yeah DBS is quadrillions for top tiers.  Until we get a calc putting Sonic above that Sonic is not faster than DBS.


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

Archetype said:


> The Cosmic Interstate feat was referenced later? Do you know how many times and/or where it was? And where did you get billions of times FTL from lowballing it? What timeframe did you use?


They didn't use a time frame. 148,000 Lightspeed in "under a minute" as a low-ball to factor the feat with the 1000 Sonic run.






Where I got the calc from.


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

twirdman said:


> Yeah DBS is quadrillions for top tiers.  Until we get a calc putting Sonic above that Sonic is not faster than DBS.


They aren't going to have a calc, or accept a calc, that's what bias is.


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## Archetype (Feb 14, 2017)

twirdman said:


> Yeah DBS is quadrillions for top tiers.  Until we get a calc putting Sonic above that Sonic is not faster than DBS.



Ok. That pretty much confirms to me that Sonic could handle DBZ, but wouldn't get very far into DBS at all. As I'm assuming those quadrillion times FTL calcs scale to pretty much every relevant character.


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

Archetype said:


> Ok. That pretty much confirms to me that Sonic could handle DBZ, but wouldn't get very far into DBS at all. As I'm assuming those quadrillion times FTL calcs scale to pretty much every relevant character.


Except once again, that's a low ball, the high-end of said feat is trillions of times, at base, and Sonic has an a thousand fold advantage as Super Sonic. If we take it literally, he is however far superior in speed than Base Sonic, and still has Time Stop.


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## Archetype (Feb 14, 2017)

Gomu said:


> They didn't use a time frame. 148,000 Lightspeed in "under a minute" as a low-ball to factor the feat with the 1000 Sonic run.



So the Cosmic Interstate feat is referenced later. Nice to know. But I thought Super transformation buffs were by 1,000%, are they times a thousand?


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## twirdman (Feb 14, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Except once again, that's a low ball, the high-end of said feat is trillions of times, at base, and Sonic has an a thousand fold advantage as Super Sonic. If we take it literally, he is however far superior in speed than Base Sonic, and still has Time Stop.



OK so lets give you the trillion and then multiply that a thousand fold and that would barely put him in the same speed tier as DBS which is 72 quadrillion times the speed of light.  So you better hope for double digit trillions.


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## xenos5 (Feb 14, 2017)

twirdman said:


> Yeah DBS is quadrillions for top tiers.  Until we get a calc putting Sonic above that Sonic is not faster than DBS.



its also 2 Quintillion for Zeno due to how fast the energy used for his erasure of the future trunks timeline/multiverse spread


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

Archetype said:


> So the Cosmic Interstate feat is referenced later. Nice to know. But I thought Super transformation buffs were by 1,000%, are they times a thousand?


Except Multi-versal by itself is far higher than 1000% of an increase, so it's far higher than that. That's why I said you don't take it seriously.



twirdman said:


> OK so lets give you the trillion and then multiply that a thousand fold and that would barely put him in the same speed tier as DBS which is 72 quadrillion times the speed of light. So you better hope for double digit trillions.


Once again, that's a low-ball. That was only a small portion of the cosmic interstate and he ran towards the other side of the Multiverse. Also. Time Stop, invincibility, Sonic can't be atomized or erased by a force weaker than his own durability.


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## twirdman (Feb 14, 2017)

Gomu said:


> They aren't going to have a calc, or accept a calc, that's what bias is.



Do you feel kind of silly given even accepting your highball estimate and multiplier you still lose to DBS despite your claim that Sonic was so much faster?  This isn't someone ignoring feats or lowballing this is me taking you at face value and comparing it to DBS speed feats.  So will you admit now that sonic is slower than DBS?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

twirdman said:


> Do you feel kind of silly given even accepting your highball estimate and multiplier you still lose to DBS despite your claim that Sonic was so much faster?  This isn't someone ignoring feats or lowballing this is me taking you at face value and comparing it to DBS speed feats.  So will you admit now that sonic is slower than DBS?


Again, Super Sonic is far faster than base. Sonic still wins. I don't feel silly because that was his casual speed on running through the Multiverse.


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## twirdman (Feb 14, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Except Multi-versal by itself is far higher than 1000% of an increase, so it's far higher than that. That's why I said you don't take it seriously.
> 
> 
> Once again, that's a low-ball. That was only a small portion of the cosmic interstate and he ran towards the other side of the Multiverse. Also. Time Stop, invincibility, Sonic can't be atomized or erased by a force weaker than his own durability.
> ...



Your quote in bold.  So I'll give you trillions and then multiply that by 1000 that gives you quadrillions which is slower or around the level of the 72 quadrillion feat and significantly slower than Zero's 2 quintillion.  You can't go back and say your high end is now a lowball.  What kind of silliness is that.


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

twirdman said:


> Your quote in bold.  So I'll give you trillions and then multiply that by 1000 that gives you quadrillions which is slower or around the level of the 72 quadrillion feat and significantly slower than Zero's 2 quintillion.  You can't go back and say your high end is now a lowball.  What kind of silliness is that.


You need to go back and read what he said in the blog, bro.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## twirdman (Feb 14, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Again, Sonic is far faster than base. Sonic still wins. I don't feel silly because that was his casual speed on running through the Multiverse.



I give you your high end and I give you your 1k multiplier and you still complain that is a low end and Sonic is actually like 100s of times faster to match the speed of Zeno.  I don't see how I can argue with that.  If you can just say nope Sonic is as fast as he needs to be I don't know how we can work it out.  You need to actually pin a speed on Sonic so we can actually say who is faster.  You just saying Sonic is faster just causes us to run in circles.  This is why you aren't taken seriously.


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## twirdman (Feb 14, 2017)

Gomu said:


> You need to go back and read what he said in the blog, bro.



What the hell are you talking about I'm taking your numbers.   If your numbers are wrong fix them don't tell me I'm wrong because you cited the wrong numbers.


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

twirdman said:


> I give you your high end and I give you your 1k multiplier and you still complain that is a low end and Sonic is actually like 100s of times faster to match the speed of Zeno.  I don't see how I can argue with that.  If you can just say nope Sonic is as fast as he needs to be I don't know how we can work it out.  You need to actually pin a speed on Sonic so we can actually say who is faster.  You just saying Sonic is faster just causes us to run in circles.  This is why you aren't taken seriously.


And once again, read the fucking blog.


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## twirdman (Feb 14, 2017)

Gomu said:


> And once again, read the fucking blog.



Why am I going to read a fucking blog.  You provide another fucking feat.  The feat you listed isn't up to snuff I don't care what else the blog says unless it has a better feat.  If it has a better feat trot that one out and we'll see how it stacks up.  I'm not going to do your work when you are the one claiming that Sonic is faster than DBS and citing a feat that doesn't support it.


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

Because you're not reading it correctly, it said at a low-ball, he'd be traveling trillions of times the speed of light, no matter what. AT A LOWBALL.
_
Now, if we seriously lowball this feat and say it took him an entire minute just to travel 148,000 light years, he'd still be moving trillions of times ftl. You'd have to be 31,612,903x the speed of light just to travel one light year within a second. Now, pretending it took him an entire 60 seconds to go across 148,000 light years, he'd be traveling at an incredible 77,978,494,623x light speed. That's over 77 billion times the speed of light. And that's if we *lowball.*_


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## twirdman (Feb 14, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Because you're not reading it correctly, it said at a low-ball, he'd be traveling *trillions *of times the speed of light, no matter what. AT A LOWBALL.
> _
> Now, if we seriously lowball this feat and say it took him an entire minute just to travel 148,000 light years, he'd still be moving trillions of times ftl. You'd have to be 31,612,903x the speed of light just to travel one light year within a second. Now, pretending it took him an entire 60 seconds to go across 148,000 light years, he'd be traveling at an incredible 77,978,494,623x light speed. That's over *77 billion times* the speed of light. And that's if we *lowball.*_



You realize trillions and billions are different numbers right?  Like one is 3 orders of magnitude higher than the other.  Even 77 billion is 13 times slower than 1 trillion.  You said trillion was the high end so I used that.  The blog has 77 billion as a low end, again fitting with the billion you said for a low end, trillions could easily be high end for the feat which with a thousand fold increase for super sonic would put super sonic at quadrillions which is exactly where non Zeno characters sit.  Also you even state that the thousand might be Sonic bullshitting but I'm willing to take it at face value since with the feat you gave it still makes him slower than Super characters.  If you want to use a different high end than you shouldn't have said  

*Except once again, that's a low ball, the high-end of said feat is trillions of times, at base, and Sonic has an a thousand fold advantage as Super Sonic. If we take it literally, he is however far superior in speed than Base Sonic, and still has Time Stop*.

The important part being bolded, underlined, italicized, and embiggend so you don't miss the part where you said high end was trillions so I used trillions.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

twirdman said:


> You realize trillions and billions are different numbers right?  Like one is 3 orders of magnitude higher than the other.  Even 77 billion is 13 times slower than 1 trillion.  You said trillion was the high end so I used that.  The blog has 77 billion as a low end, again fitting with the billion you said for a low end, trillions could easily be high end for the feat which with a thousand fold increase for super sonic would put super sonic at quadrillions which is exactly where non Zeno characters sit.  Also you even state that the thousand might be Sonic bullshitting but I'm willing to take it at face value since with the feat you gave it still makes him slower than Super characters.  If you want to use a different high end than you shouldn't have said
> 
> *Except once again, that's a low ball, the high-end of said feat is trillions of times, at base, and Sonic has an a thousand fold advantage as Super Sonic. If we take it literally, he is however far superior in speed than Base Sonic, and still has Time Stop*.
> 
> The important part being bolded, underlined, italicized, and embiggend so you don't miss the part where you said high end was trillions so I used trillions.


Where did it say high-end again, though. That's my fault. OK bad words. Doesn't make it right. Where did it say that's his high-end?


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## twirdman (Feb 14, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Where did it say high-end again, though. That's my fault. OK bad words. Doesn't make it right. Where did it say that's his high-end?



So you spent multiple post calling me a moron because you can't even correctly post the feat and you put this half assed fucking apology.  Also your calc still shows 77 billion as a low end and doesn't post any high end.  I have no idea why it says trillion since clearly the calc gives billions.  Since the high end would need to be 1k times faster than that just to get to a speed where a 1k multiplier would put him on par with non Zeno speed feat we have for Z I see no reason to think that is the case.  Unless you give some reason why the number has to be 1000 times faster than what was calced and actually 25000 times faster to make him close to Zeno than you need to say why that is true.


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

twirdman said:


> So you spent multiple post calling me a moron because you can't even correctly post the feat and you put this half assed fucking apology.  Also your calc still shows 77 billion as a low end and doesn't post any high end.  I have no idea why it says trillion since clearly the calc gives billions.  Since the high end would need to be 1k times faster than that just to get to a speed where a 1k multiplier would put him on par with non Zeno speed feat we have for Z I see no reason to think that is the case.  Unless you give some reason why the number has to be 1000 times faster than what was calced and actually 25000 times faster to make him close to Zeno than you need to say why that is true.


Because that's BASE Sonic. Base Sonic is far inferior to Super Sonic.


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## ultraguy (Feb 14, 2017)

Eh to be honest I actually wish people wouldn't use my blog to start arguments on other websites, given it tends to lead to in fighting(no offense to whoever brought it up).

for what it's worth I actually made a blog on sonic for anyone interested


I'm not really interested on going out of my way to argue any points or force anybody to see anything from a certain point of view though, so make of it what you want


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## twirdman (Feb 14, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Because that's BASE Sonic. Base Sonic is far inferior to Super Sonic.



I told you I'm giving you your 1k multiplier for Super Sonic.  Do you want to fucking change that to?  This is why everyone thinks your fucking wanking.  I'm giving you what you asked for and showing you it is slower than Super so you are saying "well actually Sonic is faster" show some fucking proof.  Is it just you not knowing how numbers work?

It goes thousand, million, *billion*, trillion, quadrillion, quintillion.    Bold is where you are saying base sonic is at a low end underline is where DBS is.  That is a 1 million times difference.  Specifically you said 77 billion and DBS non Zeno is 72 quadrillion so 930k times faster.  Giving your 1k multiplier for super that gives DBS is 930 times faster.  Are you claiming the feat is 930 times lower than listed since that seems quite a statement without something to back it up and even giving that it would still be almost 30 times slower than Zeno.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

twirdman said:


> I told you I'm giving you your 1k multiplier for Super Sonic.  Do you want to fucking change that to?  This is why everyone thinks your fucking wanking.  I'm giving you what you asked for and showing you it is slower than Super so you are saying "well actually Sonic is faster" show some fucking proof.  Is it just you not knowing how numbers work?
> 
> It goes thousand, million, *billion*, trillion, quadrillion, quintillion.    Bold is where you are saying base sonic is at a low end underline is where DBS is.  That is a 1 million times difference.  Specifically you said 77 billion and DBS non Zeno is 72 quadrillion so 930k times faster.  Giving your 1k multiplier for super that gives DBS is 930 times faster.  Are you claiming the feat is 930 times lower than listed since that seems quite a statement without something to back it up and even giving that it would still be almost 30 times slower than Zeno.


Once again, Base Sonic.


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## twirdman (Feb 14, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Once again, Base Sonic.



Yes base Sonic is billions of times FTL.  According to you and your 1k multiplier that makes Super Sonic trillions of times FTL.  DBS is quadrillions of times FTL.  Quadrillions>trillions.  Do you understand now?  I feel like I'm talking to a dumb brick wall.


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

twirdman said:


> Yes base Sonic is billions of times FTL.  According to you and your 1k multiplier that makes Super Sonic trillions of times FTL.  DBS is quadrillions of times FTL.  Quadrillions>trillions.  Do you understand now?  I feel like I'm talking to a dumb brick wall.


I said not to take the thousandfold multiplier seriously multiple times, Multiversal is far more than 1000%.


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## xenos5 (Feb 14, 2017)

Gomu said:


> I said not to take the thousandfold multiplier seriously multiple times, Multiversal is far more than 1000%.



Again no one is accepting the Super Sonic being multiversal. And if you don't want to use the 1000x multipler than the multiplier is completely unquantifiable and Super Sonic is just unquantifiably above trillions c. You can't just make up a higher multiplier because you don't like the multiplier you've got or don't think it's high enough.

Reactions: Like 2


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## twirdman (Feb 14, 2017)

Gomu said:


> I said not to take the thousandfold multiplier seriously multiple times, Multiversal is far more than 1000%.



2 things one 1000X is not 1000% two you are the one who stated to use 1000 times.  Also you are claiming multiversal so obviously has to be higher than 1000X but the multiversal isn't being accepted so there isn't a strong basis for over 1k times and even if it was accepted there is no proof that just because he is more than 1000 times more powerful he also must be more than 1000 times faster.  What I'm getting from your arguing is Sonic to you operates at the speed of plot where the plot this time is being faster than DBS.


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Again no one is accepting the Super Sonic being multiversal. And if you don't want to use the 1000x multipler than the multiplier is completely unquantifiable and Super Sonic is just unquantifiably above trillions c. You can't just make up a higher multiplier because you don't like the multiplier you've got or don't think it's high enough.


No you're not. People have accepted it. @Freddie Mercury @Merlight 

You're saying they are nobody. But in reality you guys have a twisted sense of right and wrong or logic. People are accepting it, you just don't want to. The power source powering the machine was the same as Sonic used, there was nothing changing the powers of the Chaos Emeralds, he holds that much power. Period.


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

twirdman said:


> 2 things one 1000X is not 1000% two you are the one who stated to use 1000 times.  Also you are claiming multiversal so obviously has to be higher than 1000X but the multiversal isn't being accepted so there isn't a strong basis for over 1k times and even if it was accepted there is no proof that just because he is more than 1000 times more powerful he also must be more than 1000 times faster.  What I'm getting from your arguing is Sonic to you operates at the speed of plot where the plot this time is being faster than DBS.


Again I stated to not take it seriously though. I see you're using what you want to use. Go back and copy paste when I said that in its entirety.

But he's multiversal, the Chaos Emeralds were the power source for the machine in the first place. Sonic Manipulates that energy and changes the reality, if Eggman hadn't ran into him things would have been changed to his liking. But it was still changed the multiverse as shattered.

Once again using what you want from the situation and saying Word of God means nothing. Super loses. Period.


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

twirdman said:


> Yes base Sonic is billions of times FTL.  According to you and your 1k multiplier that makes Super Sonic trillions of times FTL.  DBS is quadrillions of times FTL.  Quadrillions>trillions.  Do you understand now?  I feel like I'm talking to a dumb brick wall.


Then stop talking then, this will be an endless loop. Because I feel like you're an idiot too.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## twirdman (Feb 14, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Again I stated to not take it seriously though. I see you're using what you want to use. Go back and copy paste when I said that in its entirety.
> 
> 
> *Except once again, that's a low ball, the high-end of said feat is trillions of times, at base, and Sonic has an a thousand fold advantage as Super Sonic. If we take it literally, he is however far superior in speed than Base Sonic, and still has Time Stop.*



That one where you say thousand fold advantage.  So you either get the 1k you said or the far superior which is absolutely unquantifiable.


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## ultraguy (Feb 14, 2017)

Can't we just agree that everyone who took the time out of their lives to post in this thread is an idiot(including me), and move on with our lives?

I kid obviously. But seriously I wouldn't get that upset about this. Also legit surprised nobody looked at the second blog for sonic I posted, going over all his abilities.


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## xenos5 (Feb 14, 2017)

Gomu said:


> No you're not. People have accepted it. @Freddie Mercury @Merlight
> 
> You're saying they are nobody. But in reality you guys have a twisted sense of right and wrong or logic. People are accepting it, you just don't want to. The power source powering the machine was the same as Sonic used, there was nothing changing the powers of the Chaos Emeralds, he holds that much power. Period.



You're using two users in this thread and ignoring how everyone else does not accept that shit. Freddie Mercury and Merlight do not speak for the OBD. The former is a joke who just says "Ajimu Solos" in every thread involving Ajimu because he's got a hard on for her and the latter is a guy who's tried to wank Mario to absurd levels with Mario Galaxy shit. They have nowhere near as much respect in this community as guys like NightmareCinema and Fang.

You cannot treat your own opinion you can get barely anyone to accept as fact. For the sake of argument you should ignore it and just try to argue why the speed you're so desperately pushing for should be accepted on its own merits. Using "Super Sonic is multiversal so clearly the Super Form should boost his speed much higher than 1000x as well" as an argument would require everyone to believe super sonic is multiversal but clearly the majority don't. Try to argue for the speed without inserting your own personal opinion about the stat boost the super form has for DC/durability and try to find some objective facts.


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

twirdman said:


> That one where you say thousand fold advantage.  So you either get the 1k you said or the far superior which is absolutely unquantifiable.


Except once again. I said "don't take it seriously" in context. Yet you took it seriously.


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> You're using two users in this thread and ignoring how everyone else does not accept that shit. Freddie Mercury and Merlight do not speak for the OBD. The former is a joke who just says "Ajimu Solos" in every thread involving Ajimu because he's got a hard on for her and the latter is a guy who's tried to wank Mario to absurd levels with Mario Galaxy shit. They have nowhere near as much respect in this community as guys like NightmareCinema and Fang.
> 
> You cannot treat your own opinion you can get barely anyone to accept as fact. For the sake of argument you should ignore it and just try to argue why the speed you're so desperately pushing for should be accepted on its own merits. Using "Super Sonic is multiversal so clearly the Super Form should boost his speed much higher than 1000x as well" as an argument would require everyone to believe super sonic is multiversal but clearly the majority don't. Try to argue for the speed without inserting your own personal opinion about the stat boost the super form has for DC/durability and try to find some objective facts.


Yes because you ignore the fact that most of those posts were to mock the Sonic feats because you don't want DBS to lose. I've showed the feats, yet you've done nothing but hammered them down. It's not an opinion if I'm using the evidence from the canon. Please go see what an opinion is.


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## xenos5 (Feb 14, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Yes because you ignore the fact that most of those posts were to mock the Sonic feats because you don't want DBS to lose. I've showed the feats, yet you've done nothing but hammered them down. It's not an opinion if I'm using the evidence from the canon. Please go see what an opinion is.



I already explained why I don't see the feat as valid. Manipulating shit=/=having the same level of power as what you're manipulating. 

I didn't just pretend the feat didn't exist. I showed why I don't think it works and nothing you said makes me think my explanation is wrong. 

You're using what I see as a faulty interpretation of the evidence. So I don't see it as fact and plenty of other users don't as well. You should know that's not changing by know. So why don't you try to work around that and argue solely for the speed instead of using something you know you're not going to change people's opinions on to try to support your argument for the speed?


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> I already explained why I don't see the feat as valid. Manipulating shit=/=having the same level of power as what you're manipulating.
> 
> I didn't just pretend the feat didn't exist. I showed why I don't think it works and nothing you said makes me think my explanation is wrong.
> 
> You're using what I see as a faulty interpretation of the evidence. So I don't see it as fact and plenty of other users don't as well. You should know that's not changing by know. So why don't you try to work around that and argue solely for the speed instead of using something you know you're not going to change people's opinions on to try to support your argument for the speed?


Except Ian Flynn, the main writer of Sonic said that the Super Genesis Wave destroyed the entire multiverse, Sonic fixed it.



30A and 30B please.


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## twirdman (Feb 14, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Except Ian Flynn, the main writer of Sonic said that the Super Genesis Wave destroyed the entire multiverse, Sonic fixed it.
> 
> 
> 
> 30A and 30B please.



How does any of this have to do with speed.  We don't scale speed from DC.  Just because someone got stronger doesn't mean they got faster.  Even if people accepted multiversal that doesn't give us anything about his speed.  Even if you win on this argument you've won nothing.


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## xenos5 (Feb 14, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Except Ian Flynn, the main writer of Sonic said that the Super Genesis Wave destroyed the entire multiverse, Sonic fixed it.
> 
> 
> 
> 30A and 30B please.



That doesn't really contradict anything. The super genesis wave destroyed shit, it didn't dissipate afterwards, and Super Sonic manipulated the remaining energy of the super genesis wave to restore shit. If he is never shown doing it with his own pure power alone than it is meaningless.


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> That doesn't really contradict anything. The super genesis wave destroyed shit, it didn't dissipate afterwards, and Super Sonic manipulated the remaining energy of the super genesis wave to restore shit. If he is never shown doing it with his own pure power alone than it is meaningless.


So where did the energy to bring back the multiverse come from then Champ. Where did he get the Energy from the Super Genesis Wave, he wasn't taking from any source but what he had from his own being and the Chaos Energy. Go back and look at those scans. Where did he get that energy from.


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

twirdman said:


> How does any of this have to do with speed.  We don't scale speed from DC.  Just because someone got stronger doesn't mean they got faster.  Even if people accepted multiversal that doesn't give us anything about his speed.  Even if you win on this argument you've won nothing.


We're not even talking about speed anymore, if you want a joke here. I could show you the scan where it said "Sonic is the fastest thing on any world (universe)" but just like the thousand fold shit, it was meant as a joke.

Speed doesn't even matter when a person can't harm you, can be time stopped, and be killed by a Chaos-Enhanced Punch.


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## ultraguy (Feb 14, 2017)

If I remember correctly actually. Sonic attempted to use chaos control to turn things back to normal. Eggman interrupted him and shot at the chaos control ball and the resulting reaction called the genesis wave to go out of control and "fail".



That's what caused the multiverse to collasp, which then recreated itself on its own. With the shards from the old reality being what created the "genisis portals" found in the second megaman crossover.


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## xenos5 (Feb 14, 2017)

Gomu said:


> So where did the energy to bring back the multiverse come from then Champ. Where did he get the Energy from the Super Genesis Wave, he wasn't taking from any source but what he had from his own being and the Chaos Energy. Go back and look at those scans. Where did he get that energy from.





Crimson Dragoon said:


> that's what it looks like to me too
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



CD pretty much put it exactly as I would.


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## Gomu (Feb 14, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> CD pretty much put it exactly as I would.


OK let me put it the way it was supposed to be seen.



Notice he says "We used the Chaos Emeralds". Where did they even touch the machine. Where did they even touch the machine, show it to me. They just magically gained the energy to manipulate the multiverse. Please show it. 

So let me count down. Scans. Word of God. The Power Source (that runs the machine) isn't accepted for evidence. Right? I feel sorry for Dragon Ball then, because technically, if we go by what you just said, it's not getting any upgrades, as it should be treated the same way. Just because ki can destroy space time, doesn't mean that the characters can destroy the universe, only Gods of Destruction and Zeno can destroy universes. No matter how much the narrator states it. You guys will stay planet level, as all I saw were worlds being destroyed. Not suns, just matter disassembling, just could be an after effect. But the universe wasn't destroyed.


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## ultraguy (Feb 15, 2017)

TBH it's incredibly ambiguous as to if Sonic can actually warp reality and cause changes to the world in a manner similar to a genesis wave on his own. The most he's ever done is use chaos control to return things to normal when the effect of a genesis wave where currently ongoing(well and turn back time a few seconds in one case). Other than that attempt to fix reality falling apart due to overuse of genesis portals in the second crossover, which actually failed showing he has limits unlike the claimed to be limitless super genisis wave Eggman was using(despite both technically using the same power source).

He probably wont use powers like that outright at any point in the comics future in my opinion as well.

On another note, I do find all this talk about reality warping in archie kind of ironic. The fleetway sonic comics had much more blatant instances of reality warping for example, with Eggman himself getting the power to alter time lines and even poof people out of existence with a thought at one point due to chaos emerald power(granted neither sonic or super sonic ever did this, but It's weird to not see it brought up).

Again I literally posted a blog with information like this a page ago. It's not the same blog that was posted at the beginning of the thread and literally has feats that are probably FTL to MFTL for even base sonic(albeit not all from archie).


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

ultraguy said:


> TBH it's incredibly ambiguous as to if Sonic can actually warp reality and cause changes to the world in a manner similar to a genesis wave on his own. The most he's ever done is use chaos control to return things to normal when the effect of a genesis wave where currently ongoing. Other than that attempt to fix reality falling apart due to overuse of genesis portals in the second crossover, which actually failed showing he has limits unlike the claimed to be limitless super genisis wave Eggman was using.


I never stated Sonic had no limits though, that's what they are trying to imply. Multiversal manipulate and power control has nothing to do with having "no limits". If it can be pointed out when I ever stated this, please do. Because I hate when my words are twisted.



ultraguy said:


> He probably wont use powers like that outright at any point in the comics future in my opinion as well.


That's your opinion.



ultraguy said:


> On another note, I do find all this talk about reality warping in archie kind of ironic. The fleetway sonic comics had much more blatant instances of reality warping for example, with Eggman himself getting the power to alter time lines and even poof people out of existence with a thought at one point due to chaos emerald power(granted neither sonic or super sonic ever did this, but It's weird to not see it brought up).


Fleetway Sonic is not Archie Sonic. Fleetway Sonic is his own entity, that's why I never use him in Archie debates.



ultraguy said:


> Again I literally posted a blog with information like this a page ago. It's not the same blog that was posted at the beginning of the thread and literally has feats that are probably FTL to MFTL for even base sonic(albeit not all from archie).


I don't care about all that, just because his powers don't have any limits, does not mean he can't control it to manipualte a multiverse. Are you forgetting about Sigma, Sigma-3 was superior (energy wise) to Sonic and Megaman's Super Forms. The reason why he lost was because he was weakened. Sigma-3 (G. Sigma) was going to control all of reality, Megaman and Sonic's multiverses are just single parts of that reality, that is what they fixed.


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## Orochibuto (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> But he's multiversal, the Chaos Emeralds were the power source for the machine in the first place. Sonic Manipulates that energy and changes the reality, if Eggman hadn't ran into him things would have been changed to his liking. But it was still changed the multiverse as shattered.



Well to be honest, is highly probable Eggman and Wily harnessed the emeralds in a way superior way than Sonic could.

I mean, through the series they dealt with way worse stuff than the ol 7 emeralds, like Master Mogul and Titan Tails.

Neither of those remotely achieved what Eggman and Wily did with the Reset Button: Change the nature of the Chaos Force itself entirely and alter the multiverse in a fundamental level, taking away Sonic's connection with the CF which Eggman believed made Sonic invincible. Fuck, the change in the freaking artstyle is attributed to the genesis wave.

So even if both used the 7 emeralds, it is clear the button harnessed them beyond anything seen in the series.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Orochibuto said:


> Are you talking about the cosmic reset button?


The Cosmic Reset Button was with a single Chaos Emerald. That's only a Genesis Wave.

The Super Genesis Wave was with all 7 Chaos Emeralds. They built an entire machine for that effect. It changed the Multiverse.


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## ultraguy (Feb 15, 2017)

Uh most of the feats I was talking about are from Archie. Additionally Sigma had ambitions to control infinite reality, but outside his monologue about the power he wanted to obtain(which people tend to post out of context), he never really got much further than probably leeching the power from a few dozen or hundred planets.

Sonic and megman also didn't fix the reality meldown in the second crossover. the whole event got stopped from happening sonic 06 style.Likewise my point was more that Eggman himself specifically has said using the 7 chaos emeralds to make a genesis wave can let them do pretty do anything(granted perhaps a NLF) and Sonic can't match that barrier

On another note again to the people who never bothered reading my follow up blog. I did admit if you were going to make sonic multiversal or whatever, using the genesis wave stuff would be the best way to argue for it. I'm just acknowledging that it's not one everyone would take with absolute certainty. So trying to push it tends to lead to endless debate. The fact it's probably unlikely Sonic will actually replicate such abilities on his own, also makes it a bit inconclusive.


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## Orochibuto (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> The Cosmic Reset Button was with a single Chaos Emerald. That's only a Genesis Wave.
> 
> The Super Genesis Wave was with all 7 Chaos Emeralds. They built an entire machine for that effect. It changed the Multiverse.



Wily and Eggman built another reset button, and it is clear that it harnessed the emeralds way beyond what sonic could.


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> OK let me put it the way it was supposed to be seen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They manipulated the remaining energy from the genesis wave. The genesis wave is energy itself so they wouldn't have to touch the machine to manipulate it.

Nice attempt at putting words in my mouth. I never said WOG is completely invalid as evidence (though if it's some ridiculous shit like Toph being hulk level that can be ignored using "Death of the author"). I'm saying the WOG you're presenting doesn't contradict my argument at all.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Orochibuto said:


> Wily and Eggman built another reset button, and it is clear that it harnessed the emeralds way beyond what sonic could.


So Ian Flynn stating that the multiverse was broken after the Super Genesis Wave hit, and then Sonic fixing it... Sigma was stronger than Sonic and Megaman's Super Forms after that point, thus he literally cracked all of their realities (as in Capcom, and Segaverses) which he said he would do. Sonic even stated that they'd done it right but reality was so twisted that it couldn't be fixed. I never stated that Sonic's power was unlimited, I said he fixed HIS reality and Megaman fixed HIS reality. Those are both Multiverses, which was stated by Sigma himself.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> They manipulated the remaining energy from the genesis wave. The genesis wave is energy itself so they wouldn't have to touch the machine to manipulate it.
> 
> Nice attempt at putting words in my mouth. I never said WOG is completely invalid as evidence (though if it's some ridiculous shit like Toph being hulk level that can be ignored using "Death of the author"). I'm saying the WOG you're presenting doesn't contradict my argument at all.


THEY DID NOT MANIPULATE LEFT OVER ENERGY FROM THE FUCKING...

OK no... Please give me a scan that says that.


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> THEY DID NOT MANIPULATE LEFT OVER ENERGY FROM THE FUCKING...
> 
> OK no... Please give me a scan that says that.



That's exactly what it looks like. The swirling white spiral shit is the genesis wave correct? Well it's still around when Sonic and Megaman are manipulating chaos energy to fix everything. The genesis wave is pretty much pure chaos energy so it makes sense that's what they're manipulating and the swirling white spiral shit even still seems to be around while they're doing the restoration so it hadn't yet dissipated.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> That's exactly what it looks like. The swirling white spiral shit is the genesis wave correct? Well it's still around when Sonic and Megaman are manipulating chaos energy to fix everything. The genesis wave is pretty much pure chaos energy so it makes sense that's what they're manipulating and the swirling white spiral shit even still seems to be around while they're doing the restoration so it hadn't yet dissipated.


No, you're wrong. It was them. And they tried it again in World's Unite without the Swirling Vortex, and the reason why it didn't work is because more than Sonic and Megaman's Realities were fucked. Their places are still Multiverses.

Show me a scan though where is this swirling vortex of energy at. The Super Genesis Wave was shot, the machine made it output more energy than it had. Law's of conservation wouldn't like that shit because if you're using a battery it only has so much energy.


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## Orochibuto (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> So Ian Flynn stating that the multiverse was broken after the Super Genesis Wave hit, and then Sonic fixing it... Sigma was stronger than Sonic and Megaman's Super Forms after that point, thus he literally cracked all of their realities (as in Capcom, and Segaverses) which he said he would do. Sonic even stated that they'd done it right but reality was so twisted that it couldn't be fixed. I never stated that Sonic's power was unlimited, I said he fixed HIS reality and Megaman fixed HIS reality. Those are both Multiverses, which was stated by Sigma himself.



My point is that you cant compare what Eggman and Wily machine can do with the 7 emeralds (or even just 1) to what Sonic can do.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Orochibuto said:


> My point is that you cant compare what Eggman and Wily machine can do with the 7 emeralds (or even just 1) to what Sonic can do.


But he did it. Ian Flynn says that it was broken. The Multiverse was completely shattered. Sonic created a new multiverse.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

You know what, let's make this simple as possible. Find me where they stated they were using the left over energies of the Super Genesis Wave, because maybe it's something I'm not seeing. As even when talking about it in passing, Sonic says it was the Chaos Emeralds first. So if you can find that, I'll concede.


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> No, you're wrong. It was them. And they tried it again in World's Unite without the Swirling Vortex, and the reason why it didn't work is because more than Sonic and Megaman's Realities were fucked. Their places are still Multiverses.
> 
> Show me a scan though where is this swirling vortex of energy at. The Super Genesis Wave was shot, the machine made it output more energy than it had. Law's of conservation wouldn't like that shit because if you're using a battery it only has so much energy.



I already showed the swirling vortex when I quoted CD. all the scans in the spoiler in his quote show the swirling vortex.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> I already showed the swirling vortex when I quoted CD. all the scans in the spoiler in his quote show the swirling vortex.


Show me where it STATED that it was them using the Swirling Vortex as once again, Sonic accounts they were using the Chaos Emeralds. Show me. Something. The artistic license doesn't show that either. Footnotes, documentation, something that says "they used the power of the Super Genesis Wave" to perform their feat. The Super Genesis Wave had already fired. Please show me.


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Show me where it STATED that it was them using the Swirling Vortex as once again, Sonic accounts they were using the Chaos Emeralds. Show me. Something. The artistic license doesn't show that either. Footnotes, documentation, something that says "they used the power of the Super Genesis Wave" to perform their feat. The Super Genesis Wave had already fired. Please show me.



They said they manipulated chaos energy. The Super Genesis wave IS chaos energy. If the Swirling Vortex still exists and the Super Genesis Wave's energy hasn't dissipated I see no reason to assume the chaos energy that they're manipulating isn't what's right in front of them.


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## ultraguy (Feb 15, 2017)

Eh this is the last response, then I'm done for the night(for what it's worth I actually started to enjoy this talk. It's nice to see others opinions on subjects and see if there are any weakness in a given argument).

Anyway the ability they used is called chaos control. An ability for controlling chaos energy. Sonic says that himself.



The way it's written can actually be interpreted multiple ways. For example it could probably be interpreted as Sonic forming some energy spear version of chaos control and then hurling it at the genesis wave to control and undo it's effects. That probably has some bearing given eggman messing up the shot is what caused the Genesis wave to go out of control and "fail" in the first place. Eggman's words of it being the genesis wave that failed and not sonic, is also a bit telling.

You could also consider it as Sonic just warping reality back to normal on his own power. This probably has some bearing given Sonic at least thought he could fix reality with chaos control in the second crossover, despite no genesis wave being involved(albeit he failed in this case).

Like I said it's somewhat ambiguous and it's not an ability I think there's a high chance of being elaborated on. At the very least Sonic's never used this ability for anything other than returning reality to normal and personally I think the power would side more on the side of hax than stats if played straight anyway.

So anyway again I made a follow up blog on sonic compilng all his abilities and feats in all canons. If anyone is actually interested in reading it, it's here here:


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> They said they manipulated chaos energy. The Super Genesis wave IS chaos energy. If the Swirling Vortex still exists and the Super Genesis Wave's energy hasn't dissipated I see no reason to assume the chaos energy that they're manipulating isn't what's right in front of them.


No. Chaos Energy is from the Chaos Emeralds. Which they are powered by. Try again. Find a scan. Super Genesis Wave. Please. Chaos Energy, please. There were also no absorbing effects in those scans either, the balls were forming as orbs from within their own bodies. Scans please. And please don't say the orb could be from the Swirling Vortexes. They did it again in World's Unite. No such effect either. You don't know shit about Archie Sonic, please go on though.


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> No. Chaos Energy is from the Chaos Emeralds. Which they are powered by. Try again. Find a scan. Super Genesis Wave. Please. Chaos Energy, please. There were also no absorbing effects in those scans either, the balls were forming as orbs from within their own bodies. Scans please.



The Super Genesis Wave comes from the chaos emeralds and is essentially chaos energy amped to its zenith. 

Not saying wikis are valid as evidence but I pretty much agree with how this wiki stated it happened 

"but they were still able to infiltrate the wave while in their super forms, in which they attempted to reverse with "

They infiltrated the wave so they could control it and reverse it with chaos control.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

ultraguy said:


> Eh this is the last response, then I'm done for the night(for what it's worth I actually started to enjoy this talk. It's nice to see others opinions on subjects and see if there are any weakness in a given argument).
> 
> Anyway the ability they used is called chaos control. An ability for controlling chaos energy. Sonic says that himself.
> 
> ...


You're assuming a lot here. I want valid, viable proof it was the Super Genesis Wave, because they keep saying it is. But i saw no words about that. Sonic could always manipulate Chaos Energy, what makes this so different? Swirling vortexes ok. Super Genesis Wave = Chaos Energy? Wanna know why? Because Chaos Emeralds are raw reserves of Chaos Energy. You can't tap from a battery that does not have the supply of power you need.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> The Super Genesis Wave comes from the chaos emeralds and is essentially chaos energy amped to its zenith.
> 
> Not saying wikis are valid as evidence but I pretty much agree with how this wiki stated it happened
> 
> ...


I didn't use the Wiki as evidence, you can't either. Scans please. Wiki could be wrong. I need the scan that says they were using Chaos Energy from the Wave itself and not from the Chaos Emeralds.

And I see you're looking at what you want to look at because I edit at said wiki from time to time. Scans please.


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> I didn't use the Wiki as evidence, you can't either. Scans please. Wiki could be wrong. I need the scan that says they were using Chaos Energy from the Wave itself and not from the Chaos Emeralds.
> 
> And I see you're looking at what you want to look at because I edit at said wiki from time to time. Scans please.



There is no scan showing them doing exactly what you're claiming either. It's all up to interpretation.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> There is no scan showing them doing exactly what you're claiming either. It's all up to interpretation.


Oh... so he admits he doesn't know what he's talking about. Guess what Sonic thought he could do again... From your own source I might add.

During World's Unite, I might add.


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Oh... so he admits he doesn't know what he's talking about. Guess what Sonic thought he could do again... From your own source I might add.
> 
> During World's Unite, I might add.



A super charged chaos control to manipulate the Super Genesis Wave again and reverse it. I don't see your point. It's still just up to interpretation.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> A super charged chaos control to manipulate the Super Genesis Wave again and reverse it. I don't see your point. It's still just up to interpretation.


But there was no fucking Genesis Wave there, how the fuck were they going to manipulate it again?

World's Collide and Unite are two different events, something I know you didn't know because you've spouted bullshit since you came.

But it still won't get accepted.


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## ultraguy (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Oh... so he admits he doesn't know what he's talking about. Guess what Sonic thought he could do again... From your own source I might add.
> 
> During World's Unite, I might add.



Uh dude I literally just pointed this out. I already know this and made a point of mentioning all the arguments and counter arguments in my second blog.

I'm not even arguing against you. I pretty much said your view isn't totally invalid, just that trying to enforce it(or the other view) might come down to a matter of opinion.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

ultraguy said:


> Uh dude I literally just pointed this out. I already know this and made a point of mentioning all the arguments and counter arguments in my second blog.
> 
> I'm not even arguing against you. I pretty much said your view isn't totally invalid.


That wasn't even at you, that was at xenos. I even made it towards xenos.


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## ultraguy (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> That wasn't even at you, that was at xenos. I even made it towards xenos.



Ah my mistake.

Well whatever night.


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## Fang (Feb 15, 2017)

Consensus stands: Sonic gets stomped into the dust in Super.

>Gomu's nonsense about trying to scale DC with speed

Nope.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Fang said:


> Consensus stands: Sonic gets stomped into the dust in Super.
> 
> >Gomu's nonsense about trying to scale DC with speed
> 
> Nope.


Then show the scan where it says it or shut the fuck up. Cause no one from Super is hurting Super Sonic. As in ever. And they have plenty of hax to kill them with. Get to it. Oh wait you won't, because this is all you do. You like to taunt and talk shit but you show no merit. Usual Fang tactics. That's all you can do. Didn't know shit about Super in the last thread, don't know shit about Super now, yet joins the thread because he can do nothing but taunt. He's like the Flavor Flav of OBD.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Feb 15, 2017)

Fang is a respected debater who is so astronomically beyond you in debating skill. shut up Gomu

Reactions: Winner 1


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## twirdman (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Then show the scan where it says it or shut the fuck up. Cause no one from Super is hurting Super Sonic. As in ever. And they have plenty of hax to kill them with. Get to it. Oh wait you won't, because this is all you do. You like to taunt and talk shit but you show no merit. Usual Fang tactics. That's all you can do. Didn't know shit about Super in the last thread, don't know shit about Super now, yet joins the thread because he can do nothing but taunt. He's like the Flavor Flav of OBD.



Except the speeds we have for Sonic are laughably slower than Super and they have hax to take Sonic down.

Also when there are multiple interpretations for a feat, as is the case here since you cannot provide any proof that he created the needed energy on his own and the scan of him trying again and failing just shows he was overconfident in his abilities not that he could have definitely done it for a less severe breaking, we tend to take the one that is more in line with all his other showings.  If you have multiple showings of multiversal manipulation then you are free to bring those up and maybe then we can say he is multiversal and the genesis wave feat was legitimately multiversal but just repeating your interpretation of a feat over and over again isn't going to make it true.


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## Volt manta (Feb 15, 2017)

I remember when Sonic was simple. And fun. Now we're trying to argue about whether pulling the switch on a power grid somehow gives you city block DC.

I'm sure this was more fun pre 2013.

Particularly fun moment:


xenos5 said:


> In DBS SSR Black created a space-time rift with a slash from his energy scythe. An endless amount of clones each with universe level+ DC/durability (they could hurt SSB Goku and Vegeta) kept coming out of the rift. Does Black have unlimited power? Hell no. The rift's power =/= the power of the one or thing who created the rift. This is pretty much the same.





Gomu said:


> Once again, Word of God stated it. Not me. I don't need to twist their words to make shit work for me. You're doing it.
> 
> The clones were coming because Black commanded them to come. They stopped after he stopped commanding them to. He was the one that created the tear in space time. They followed his directions. He made them.





xenos5 said:


> That is exactly what you're doing. And I like how you ignored how I said that you can't take one piece of evidence in a void but have to see how it fits with other evidence. That was my main point.
> 
> 
> 
> The rift in space-time connected to an already existing dimension and Black was able to manipulate that already existing energy that came out of the dimension. The clones were not created by him. If Black could create an infinite amount of universe level+ clones he'd be practically multiverse level. That'd be asinine.





Gomu said:


> No it wouldn't, he said he didn't know what it was. Characters in DB have been shown affecting space-time these days, Vegeta powering up for example caused a dimensional explosion, Goku cracks open a theoretical plane of existence by destroying the Time-Skipped Dimension of Hit, etc. That's within their power. And has been since Goku gaining SSG. Black just used said abilities in a new way.





Gomu said:


> That's within their power.


This niqqa's has logic like the Oroborous. He literally concluded through his own words that by his own system, Blacku could output an infinite amount of energy. Meaning he's Screwattack Superman's equivalent, and everyone in the verse that's above him is some degree of Infinity+1. While Sonic is just "Multiverse" with a x1000 multiplier... and someone want to check that for me? Because I can't remember a single time or place that that's ever been stated, though I admit I stopped playing the Sonic games in 2000.



At least some of the relevant shit he's going to keep bringing up. Someone posted a scan of the actual comic containing the rift scenario, but I can't seem to find it now. Poor Ultraguy being ignored; he worked hard on those blogs. And this thread is worse than the one where Divell claimed he could beat a bear 1v1. At least I had mental images to keep me warm.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ayy lmao (Feb 15, 2017)

Volt manta said:


> And this thread is worse than the one where Divell claimed he could beat a bear 1v1. At least I had mental images to keep me warm.


1v1 bare handed or with a weapon?


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## Nep Heart (Feb 15, 2017)

Volt manta said:


> And this thread is worse than the one where Divell claimed he could beat a bear 1v1.



 You mean HnK pressure points don't work on bears? HnK isn't real either? Life is such a lie, I tell ya.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Volt manta (Feb 15, 2017)

Ayy lmao said:


> 1v1 bare handed or with a weapon?


You'd like to believe it was with a weapon. But this niqqa was convinced he could find and hit the pressure points on several hundred pounds worth of bear.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## twirdman (Feb 15, 2017)

Here it is in all its "glory"

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

twirdman said:


> Except the speeds we have for Sonic are laughably slower than Super and they have hax to take Sonic down.
> 
> Also when there are multiple interpretations for a feat, as is the case here since you cannot provide any proof that he created the needed energy on his own and the scan of him trying again and failing just shows he was overconfident in his abilities not that he could have definitely done it for a less severe breaking, we tend to take the one that is more in line with all his other showings.  If you have multiple showings of multiversal manipulation then you are free to bring those up and maybe then we can say he is multiversal and the genesis wave feat was legitimately multiversal but just repeating your interpretation of a feat over and over again isn't going to make it true.





Volt manta said:


> I remember when Sonic was simple. And fun. Now we're trying to argue about whether pulling the switch on a power grid somehow gives you city block DC.
> 
> I'm sure this was more fun pre 2013.
> 
> ...


Hakai is nothing more than erasure from existence, and characters like Enerjak do the same thing. Sonic can't be Time Stopped or slowed in Base. Sonic is stronger than them by a gargantuan amount, etc etc. Prove that he's not Multiversal by showing he used the Super Genesis Wave.

You don't gotta like Sonic to say that he has the feats. He's shown them. Deleting 24 universes will never beat a character that has the ability to fight against someone who can destroy millions of universes, and that was before he manipulated his power to create another multiverse after the old one was destroyed.

You'd also need to prove that Hakai can destroy a Multiversal character who has shown the ability to survive de-atomization which Knucklejak was going to do Pre-Genesis Wave.

Also there was no interpretation. Sonic said he used the Chaos Emeralds, not the Genesis Wave. Please show the scan where it stated he used the Genesis Wave. I'll wait.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Fang is a respected debater who is so astronomically beyond you in debating skill. shut up Gomu


He sure as hell hasn't shown it. Oh look more bias. What has he shown here that can be used for debating again? He said something was debunked, but not what was actually debunked because nothing was debunked other than the size of the verses, Mogul destroyed Millions of Universes, compared to DBS, 24. He's basically someone who talks big but falls short.


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## Mabel Gleeful (Feb 15, 2017)

twirdman said:


> Here it is in all its "glory"





Divell said:


> Pressure points, bear goes down.





Divell said:


> Untrained humans have survived encounters with Bears. Just like anything out of fiction, animals have pressure points. Do the math.





Divell said:


> Have you studied Martial Arts, Karate, or anything like that? Have you studied or read about pressure points?

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Ayy lmao (Feb 15, 2017)

twirdman said:


> Here it is in all its "glory"





Volt manta said:


> You'd like to believe it was with a weapon. But this niqqa was convinced he could find and hit the pressure points on several hundred pounds worth of bear.



Oh jesus christ what am I reading


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Volt manta said:


> You'd like to believe it was with a weapon. But this niqqa was convinced he could find and hit the pressure points on several hundred pounds worth of bear.


What does this have to do with Dragon Ball and Archie Sonic, please take that out of here.


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## Fang (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> *snip*



You've lied on the scans you've posted.
You've lied about DBS in the VS thread with Saint Seiya.
You've lied about Archie's Sonic and you are clearly demonstrating you are the second coming of Tonathan with your dishonest representation of how those feats in Sonic work. 

You've also demonstrated a complete lack of knowing how to debate, stone-walling others, repeating yourself ad naseum, personal attacks, misusing and constantly making fallacies like poisoning the well, appealing to motives, personal appeal (repeatedly), and outright lying while contradicting yourself without fail.

No one is buying the majority of your claims because you've completely poisoned your credibility, kiddo.

Kudos.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

@Fang



Fang said:


> You've lied on the scans you've posted.
> You've lied about DBS in the VS thread with Saint Seiya.
> You've lied about Archie's Sonic and you are clearly demonstrating you are the second coming of Tonathan with your dishonest representation of how those feats in Sonic work.
> 
> ...


Can you give examples of what I lied about. As in use your super debating skills to show what I lied about. Those "exceptional" skills you have, for more than just one liners. Like you usually do. Because you're terrible?

DBS... Zenos destroyed 24 universes when he destroyed Trunks' multiverse. That's what you were fighting against. That's what he did. For an "exceptional" debater, your lack of common sense and forward thinking is shit. I'll call you "exceptional" in the most sarcastic tone from now on. Because you lack any of the skills that make one exceptional. I'm not exceptional, but I'm not as horrible as you are. You didn't even know Zeno destroyed 24 universes, how about you ask @God Movement about it. He's a better debater than me. But not you. You're terrible, but "exceptional" at the same time.

Then you'd happily show examples instead of leaving and then coming back so no one remembers that you stated what you did, so you can show me the error of my ways. Show that dishonesty, throw away statements, feats and facts like you always do. Like the "exceptional" debater that you are.

Personal attacks? Only when people personally attack me. You're right about that. I don't know these motives though. I posted all the information your "exceptional" brain needed to understand and you threw it away. That's why I don't listen to you. Because you're so exceptional that you can't think through the simplest things and make a good comeback, but you hype yourself up to being right so much that you're wrong on most accounts.

Just like old Fang.

Just like old Fang. Make sure you stop wasting peoples times and saying I lied about something and actually get off your ass and show what I lied about next time. Stop being "exceptional" Fang. Be actually exceptional, not this fake ultimate hero status that you've built for yourself from brown-nosing idiots who like to lick the tip.


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## Fang (Feb 15, 2017)

>literally all this too long didn't read

Neat, Gomu is on ignore with Tonathan.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Fang said:


> >literally all this too long didn't read
> 
> Neat, Gomu is on ignore with Tonathan.


Good ol' @Fang immediate response but hyping yourself to be this exceptional debater who doesn't actually debate in debates.


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## Freddy Mercury (Feb 15, 2017)

Why is this thread still going?


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Freddie Mercury said:


> Why is this thread still going?


I don't know anymore. No matter how much I try to give them the information they want, they don't take it. Take a horse to a drinking hole but they still need to want to drink its water.

You're right. I'll keep all the information I've gained here and place it in the Meta thread as well as my Google Drive, maybe give it to a higher ranking "debater" than the supposedly "exceptional" debaters in this thread.

@KaiserWombat @Nighty the Mighty or any mod or admin. Please close this thread. 

Dragon Ball Super loses.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## SSBMonado (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> I don't know anymore. No matter how much I try to give them the information they want, they don't take it. Take a horse to a drinking hole but they still need to want to drink its water.
> 
> You're right. I'll keep all the information I've gained here and place it in the Meta thread as well as my Google Drive, maybe give it to a higher ranking "debater" than the supposedly "exceptional" debaters in this thread.
> 
> ...


I was about to ask what the hell you are even here for, given that the only thing you've succeeded in so far is tanking your reputation. But this posts reveals why - it's 'cause you're high as a fucking kite. 

Oh, sure, you graciously tried to lead us stupid mules to your drinking hole of wisdom and we're just too dumb to drink. Better luck next time. Maybe then you'll have something to contribute instead of repeatedly pointing us to a stand box and insisting that it's a fountain.


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## Merlight (Feb 15, 2017)

inb4lock

Archie Super Sonic and his peers are at least planet level with overpowering the GBE of a planet by like 3 statements listed in ultraguys blog. Pretty confident in those statements since Scrouge said he was getting the fuck off of the parallel planet while Super Sonic and Enerjak were fighting since they would "tear the planet apart" when they were hitting each other.

Now for the multiversal stuff, ultraguy pointed out that Mongul had been in a position to control the entire Chaos Force due to Knuckles death, so simply scaling Enerak to Mongul's feat since he gained his power would be erroneous. The beam blast that Sonic survived from Mongul could've been way less than multiversal, since it was so casual.

Haven't really read through the genesis wave stuff enough to give an opinion.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> I was about to ask what the hell you are even here for, given that the only thing you've succeeded in so far is tanking your reputation. But this posts reveals why - it's 'cause you're high as a fucking kite.
> 
> Oh, sure, you graciously tried to lead us stupid mules to your drinking hole of wisdom and we're just too dumb to drink. Better luck next time. Maybe then you'll have something to contribute instead of repeatedly pointing us to a stand box and insisting that it's a fountain.


No because if you check no one has given a shred of evidence here but me. No one. What evidence they used was from a blog of misguided explanations and tried to use that for evidence. But, you're on Ignore now, it's all good.


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## Amae (Feb 15, 2017)

An accurate summarization of this thread (loud):


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Merlight said:


> inb4lock
> 
> Archie Super Sonic and his peers are at least planet level with overpowering the GBE of a planet by like 3 statements listed in ultraguys blog. Pretty confident in those statements since Scrouge said he was getting the fuck off of the parallel planet while Super Sonic and Enerjak were fighting since they would "tear the planet apart" when they were hitting each other.
> 
> ...


Archie Sonic is easily above that though, check my other thread in the Meta Battledome. 

Mammoth Mogul was using a fraction of Enerjak's Power. He was using that power to crush Millions of verses, and had succeeded at that, which was why Tails undid his destruction with his own power.

Feats, Word of God, Statements from the Characters obviously don't mean anything here. Because that's how it's always been.

But yeah, this thread needs to be closed.


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## Freddy Mercury (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Dragon Ball Super loses.



Umm no they don't. I agreed that Archie as a whole was stronger than Super due to the top tiers. But Super Sonic does not scale to them. Hell, he got knocked out of his super form in his clash with Knuckles which only destroyed one Zone.

On a good day he'll be lucky to make it to Zamasu.


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## Merlight (Feb 15, 2017)

I really don't recall that statement of a fraction. But even if you can prove that I'm pretty sure the conditions for Mongul to be that powerful weren't there for Enerjak. Hence the scaling to Super Sonic performance against Enerjak not being a good substitute for comparing him to Mongul.

Damn divell take some steroids and you can fight a bear. 

Or you could just make a pit trap and troll the bear.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Freddie Mercury said:


> Umm no they don't. I agreed that Archie as a whole was stronger than Super due to the top tiers. But Super Sonic does not scale to them. Hell, he got knocked out of his super form in his clash with Knuckles which only destroyed one Zone.
> 
> On a good day he'll be lucky to make it to Zamasu.


Except that was against an equally powerful character... And when he was far weaker. Do you really think Knuckles would be weaker than Sonic in a Super Form.

Super Sonic has fought characters who scale to Mammoth Mogul. Mogul destroyed millions of universes. Last time I checked, DB had 24.


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## Es (Feb 15, 2017)

Did someone tell poor Gomu archie is getting shitcanned ?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blocky (Feb 15, 2017)

This kind of thread shouldn't be more detail as it already is.

Least the good thing that came out of this that it has lot of activity in it, But not the way we wanted to have.


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## Fang (Feb 15, 2017)

Es said:


> Did someone tell poor Gomu archie is getting shitcanned ?



He'll ignore it. Just like he ignored being pointed out about lying about his scans, being dishonest, wanking Sonic, abusing fallacious arguments, personal bias being observed (as he and Orchibuto were caught multiple times red-handed years and years ago of doing) repeatedly, his paranoia and bullshit about some kind of OBD hivemind against Sonic, being caught having no fucking idea what he's talking about with Saint Seiya and DBS (muh Shura "God Cloth bullshit").

The list goes on.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Merlight said:


> I really don't recall that statement of a fraction. But even if you can prove that I'm pretty sure the conditions for Mongul to be that powerful weren't there for Enerjak. Hence the scaling to Super Sonic performance against Enerjak not being a good substitute for comparing him to Mongul.
> 
> Damn divell take some steroids and you can fight a bear.


Mammoth Absorbs Enerjak's Power - 
Mammoth Proceeds to destroy Multi-Universes - 
I don't know what there isn't to get here...


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## Merlight (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Mammoth Absorbs Enerjak's Power -
> Mammoth Proceeds to destroy Multi-Universes -
> I don't know what there isn't to get here...




The last two sentences in this scan:


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Merlight said:


> The last two sentences in this scan:


What am I not seeing here. Enlighten me.

You do realize Chaos Knuckles was on par with Enerjak right?


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## Merlight (Feb 15, 2017)

literally ad verbatim here mate.

"If (He) Knuckles had stayed in the afterlife and remained one with the chaos force it would've remained in balance.
...Mongul used this to his advantage. Its unbalance gave Mogul the powerr to take its power completely".


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Merlight said:


> literally ad verbatim here mate.
> 
> "If (He) Knuckles had stayed in the afterlife and remained one with the chaos force it would've remained in balance.
> ...Mongul used this to his advantage. Its unbalance gave Mogul the powerr to take its power completely".


... I still don't get it. Knuckles was a living battery of Chaos Force. That unbalance allowed for him to absorb that power, that power was the power of Chaos Knuckles. Read completely through what's being told. Knuckles had just returned from being Chaos Knuckles, so he had limited reserves but still had remnants of that Chaos Energy, but those reserves were finite. 

There's no ad verbatim there. And I'm being respectful to you here. You're not showing me anything. Chaos Knuckles was what Knuckles was before that incident. Chaos Knuckles was on par with Enerjak having became a living Chaos Emerald.


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## Volt manta (Feb 15, 2017)

How fast did you say Super Sonic was again?


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Volt manta said:


> How fast did you say Super Sonic was again?


Far faster than base which could go billions to trillions of times faster than light.


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## Volt manta (Feb 15, 2017)

But you don't have a definite number for that speed? Just "somewhere faster?"


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Volt manta said:


> But you don't have a definite number for that speed? Just "somewhere faster?"


Nope, all I know is Super Sonic is far faster than Sonic. That doesn't matter though because DBS hax is not powerful enough to kill Sonic, Time Stop, Teleportation and Chaos Energy disintegrate them. Because Millions of Universes versus 24 and whatnot, and that's also by their strongest character, doesn't scale to the gods or even the Dai Shinkai who is stated to be "the strongest warrior" by Whis.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

@xenos5, show the proof. You still have a chance, I don't know why you stopped if you had proof you would show it. 

All I see is downplay here.


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## Volt manta (Feb 15, 2017)

I haven't read too much of Archie Sonic, so i'm going mostly by what's been shown in this thread. You're saying Super Sonic scales to Mammoth Mongul, which makes him high multiversal, correct?


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Volt manta said:


> I haven't read too much of Archie Sonic, so i'm going mostly by what's been shown in this thread. You're saying Super Sonic scales to Mammoth Mongul, which makes him high multiversal, correct?


No, Mogul is not Multiversal, He's destroyed Millions of Universes. Sonic is Multiversal because he fixed his reality, his universe, which is stated by Sigma to be a multiverse. And is shown when characters from different series like Okami, Street Fighter, etc. Join to fight against Sigma. They both repaired their own realities.

to explain the Mogul principle, in 2011 there was a big argument on whether Sonic was multiversal, or multi-universal, with characters like Enerjak and Mogul manipulating Enerjak's energy. We conceded it as Multi-Universal because millions.

The realities were destroyed by the Super Genesis Wave (a Super Genesis Wave is made by the 7 Chaos Emeralds capable of changing entire realities in this case, multiverses).

Ian states that yes, Sonic's universe was a multiverse as well. The Multiverse was destroyed by the Super Genesis Wave. @xenos5 please show that they used the Super Genesis Wave to recreate their Multiverse instead of the Chaos Emeralds (both the machine and the Super Forms). The reason they made the machines is because Wily and Eggman cannot manipulate Chaos Energy, the machine has nothing to do with the output of power. The machine was made to manipulate the power to do their bidding.

Sonic resets and fixes his universe (thanks to Eggman's blunder), Megaman recreates his universe completely without drawbacks.

Sonic tries this same stunt again in Unite, he says he can and is sure that he could, there was no Super Genesis Wave. @xenos5 please show where they used a Super Genesis Wave in World's Unite. The reason why he can't was because reality was too damaged due to Sigma affecting EVERYONES realities. Which makes him scale higher as God Sigma (Sigma-3). Sigma stated that was what he was going to do, control infinite realities/worlds. Worlds in this case were universes. We know he isn't lying because during World's Unite Megaman and Sonic's Universes were connected together.


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## Merlight (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> You do realize Chaos Knuckles was on par with Enerjak right?



That works as evidence to put them on peers I guess? Have the Fang or whoever refute that then since Mogul sucked away that same power to do his multi-universe destroying and its stated there to be the same/equal and Super Sonic fistcuffed with that power.

Skimming over the speed debate for bajillion lightyears crossed for the cosmic interstate, I'm not seeing a reliable timeframe.

Not that I'm seeing anything properly cited for the DBS side either lol


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Nope, all I know is Super Sonic is far faster than Sonic. That doesn't matter though because DBS hax is not powerful enough to kill Sonic, Time Stop, Teleportation and Chaos Energy disintegrate them. Because Millions of Universes versus 24 and whatnot, and that's also by their strongest character, doesn't scale to the gods or even the Dai Shinkai who is stated to be "the strongest warrior" by Whis.



SSBKK Goku can resist timestop, Hit can resist timestop (because he has it as well), the gods of destruction and anyone stronger than them can resist timestop (iirc it was implied or stated when Champa was about to kill Hit), teleportation means jack shit in dragonball as plenty of characters have it including the main character. That small amount of hax is pathetic compared to the entirety of DBS honestly.

DBS Hax is easily powerful enough to kill Sonic. Beerus's hakai would destroy Sonic's soul, and Black's space-time slicing hax with his scythe would easily cut through Sonic for instance.

And DBS's defensive hax is even better. Hit's time hax goes beyond normal time hax as he can time freeze character who can resist/move in his timestop. Hit can make himself practically unreachable while still being able to attack his opponent with shockwaves by going into his pocket dimension. Beerus has energy nullification. Beerus can seal characters into objects. Whis has a pretty good BFR. Fusion Zamasu becomes Noncorporeal after his physical body is destroyed. Botamo can send attacks that him into another dimension.

Super Sonic has a snowball's chance in hell against all of that.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Merlight said:


> That works as evidence to put them on peers I guess? Have the Fang or whoever refute that then.
> 
> Skimming over the speed debate for bajillion lightyears crossed for the cosmic interstate, I'm not seeing a reliable timeframe.
> 
> Not that I'm seeing anything cited for the DBS side either lol


But there was nothing there that stated anything lacking about the powers he had. I don't get what you're implying, Mogul absorbed the remainder of Chaos Knuckles' power.

He ran across the multiverse in less than an afternoon. He was trying to save his friends, and had a tussle with Evil Sonic (Scourge) and ran back, in this time he had a race with him as well which took up a few seconds, they both raced around Dark Mobius and Sonic still shows up in time to save the day, he was in a hurry here.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> SSBKK Goku can resist timestop, Hit can resist timestop (because he has it as well), the gods of destruction and anyone stronger than them can resist timestop (iirc it was implied or stated when Champa was about to kill Hit), teleportation means jack shit in dragonball as plenty of characters have it including the main character. That small amount of hax is pathetic compared to the entirety of DBS honestly.
> 
> DBS Hax is easily powerful enough to kill Sonic. Beerus's hakai would destroy Sonic's soul, and Black's space-time slicing hax with his scythe would easily cut through Sonic for instance.
> 
> ...


When did Hit resist timestop. I don't remember that one. Please enlighten me.  Just because he can control time skipping does not mean he can resist it. You'd have to show evidence. And it's funny you don't think characters with the power to destroy actual multiverses are stronger than gods who can barely destroy 4 universes when they do battle.

Except the Hakai has only been shown on weaker characters. NLF right there, downplayer. Space and time you say? Chaos Powers are made of that... I wonder what happens...

Once again against weaker characters. Beerus is weaker than Super Sonic. You still haven't shown where they used the Super Genesis Wave to power them. Because a scan says "Chaos Emeralds". It was never stated that they used it, there was no implications that that's what they used.

Might wanna reverse that last one.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Merlight said:


> That works as evidence to put them on peers I guess? Have the Fang or whoever refute that then since Mogul sucked away that same power to do his multi-universe destroying and its stated there to be the same/equal and Super Sonic fistcuffed with that power.
> 
> Skimming over the speed debate for bajillion lightyears crossed for the cosmic interstate, I'm not seeing a reliable timeframe.
> 
> Not that I'm seeing anything properly cited for the DBS side either lol


Fang does not refute. He downplays and antagonizes. If he doesn't like something he whines about it and calls you a liar. I've experienced it enough time to know. You see he didn't come back at anything I stated right. I would have happily listened.


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## Merlight (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> But there was nothing there that stated anything lacking about the powers he had. I don't get what you're implying, Mogul absorbed the remainder of Chaos Knuckles' power.
> 
> He ran across the multiverse in less than an afternoon. He was trying to save his friends, and had a tussle with Evil Sonic (Scourge) and ran back, in this time he had a race with him as well which took up a few seconds, they both raced around Dark Mobius and Sonic still shows up in time to save the day, he was in a hurry here.



The scan you added which had Doctor Finitevus statement would mean that whatever the balance shtick did that allowed Mogul to be that powerful was equal to Enerjak.

"less than an afternoon." I'm assuming there is a character quote for this?

Then ask someone else besides Fang? Seems like you guys have bad blood and you guys won't get any progress anyway


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Merlight said:


> The scan you added which had Doctor Finitevus statement would mean that whatever the balance shtick did that allowed Mogul to be that powerful was equal to Enerjak.
> 
> "less than an afternoon." I'm assuming there is a character quote for this?
> 
> Then ask someone else besides Fang? Seems like you guys have bad blood and you guys won't get any progress anyway


You mean we're actually debating here. HOLY SHIT! WE'RE ACTUALLY DEBATING! in a debating forum... wow... Thank you man, even if you don't agree with this, you're doing what a bunch of other bastards have not been. Respect to you.

On your first statement, yes, Chaos Knuckles powers were uncontrollable though. Enerjak's spirit was more controllable and thus he was stronger but not because of a greater amount of power, it was more finesse which was what the Doc was referring to. Knuckles literally turns to Chaos Knuckles for an instant when transforming to Enerjak.

To the second one:








So no we don't know an exact time frame but it could not have been more than a day or even a few hours.

I don't deal with Fang, I laugh at Fang.


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## Volt manta (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> No, Mogul is not Multiversal, He's destroyed Millions of Universes. Sonic is Multiversal because he fixed his reality, his universe, which is stated by Sigma to be a multiverse. And is shown when characters from different series like Okami, Street Fighter, etc. Join to fight against Sigma. They both repaired their own realities.
> 
> to explain the Mogul principle, in 2011 there was a big argument on whether Sonic was multiversal, or multi-universal, with characters like Enerjak and Mogul manipulating Enerjak's energy. We conceded it as Multi-Universal because millions.
> 
> ...


So Sonic is multi universal for manipulating the power of the Super Genesis Wave in order to fix his own reality?


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Volt manta said:


> So Sonic is multi universal for manipulating the power of the Super Genesis Wave in order to fix his own reality?


No, Ian calls him Multiversal. Please don't do that. I'm being respectful to you now. I said Mogul was Multi-Universal, not Sonic.  Proof - 
See question 30 for details.


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> When did Hit resist timestop. I don't remember that one. Please enlighten me.  Just because he can control time skipping does not mean he can resist it. You'd have to show evidence. And it's funny you don't think characters with the power to destroy actual multiverses are stronger than gods who can barely destroy 4 universes when they do battle.
> 
> Except the Hakai has only been shown on weaker characters. NLF right there, downplayer. Space and time you say? Chaos Powers are made of that... I wonder what happens...
> 
> ...



Hit can move in his own timestop and give other characters resistance to his timestop (the mob boss). Hit's also faster than Sonic so he'd be able to activate his timestop before Sonic could activate his. 

Are you fucking serious? Soul destruction isn't an NLF. You have to be able to resist soul hax for it to not work. 

I don't buy your bullshit about "Super sonic being multiversal" and I never will. I am done arguing about that as nothing I say will get through your thick head.

Show me a scan of Sonic being hit by just spatial slicing hax and not getting cut in half let alone space-time slicing hax and then we can talk.


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## Volt manta (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> No, Ian calls him Multiversal. Please don't do that. I'm being respectful to you now. I said Mogul was Multi-Universal, not Sonic.  Proof -
> See question 30 for details.


_#30a Did the Super Genesis Wave actually destroy Sonic's multiverse? 

Yes.

#30b then how come Blaze's world was seemingly unaffected? 

It was affected – it was “waved” too. It wasn’t wiped out because of the power of the Jeweled Scepter._

So if Sonic's not multi-universal, then what exactly is his DC? And does he scale to Mammoth Mogul?


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## Merlight (Feb 15, 2017)

"So no we don't know an exact time frame but it could not have been more than a day or even a few hours."
Well the sky turns red at the end of the travel feat so I guess 12 hours would be max.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Hit can move in his own timestop and give other characters resistance to his timestop (the mob boss). Hit's also faster than Sonic so he'd be able to activate his timestop before Sonic could activate his.
> 
> Are you fucking serious? Soul destruction isn't an NLF. You have to be able to resist soul hax for it to not work.
> 
> ...


That's his own time stop... Of course he can move in it. What's the point of not being able to move in a time you stop? Jotaro always had the ability to use time stop, but he didn't know it until seeing Dio do it multiple times. Does that mean Jojo had an immunity to Time Stop before this? Nope. Your logic is not sound for this, also Sonic is immune to time stops, unlike Hit, he did not have a time stop switch, yet could still move in Flash-man's Time stop which affects everything.

Actually it is. Because once again, you need to show it affecting a being on Multiversal Super Sonic's scale.

Then don't argue, accept it and move on. I've shown my evidence. Can you show me where they used that Super Genesis Wave, even without that, Sonic still fought beings that could crush millions of universes, still far above what DBS has even dreamt of doing. You'd still lose.

You'd need to prove that Black Goku or Zamasu are on par with Zeno even if that were the case. Zeno is the strongest character in DBS, no one comes close to his abilities.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Volt manta said:


> _#30a Did the Super Genesis Wave actually destroy Sonic's multiverse?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> ...


I just said he was Multiversal... He fixed the Universe that was destroyed. I said this multiple times. Mammoth Mogul is inferior to him after the Genesis Wave incident.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Merlight said:


> "So no we don't know an exact time frame but it could not have been more than a day or even a few hours."
> Well the sky turns red at the end of the travel feat so I guess 12 hours would be max.


That's just a color scheme issue though, sky also turns red during him and Sally's shows of affection but it's more probable that they were celebrating right after they saved the day. They would have said something if it was the next day instead.


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## Volt manta (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> I just said he was Multiversal... He fixed the Universe that was destroyed. I said this multiple times. Mammoth Mogul is inferior to him after the Genesis Wave incident.


But by using the power of the Super Genesis Wave? So this is something he couldn't normally do?


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## Merlight (Feb 15, 2017)

Or it really is sunset. 
Well its clearly not dark or nighttime when he arrived and the sky is still blue before that part so I'd just go with 12 hours since its still midday when he had left them.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Volt manta said:


> But by using the power of the Super Genesis Wave? So this is something he couldn't normally do?


Show a scan of that please. Just like @xenos5, if you can show a scan then you'll be right.

I don't know where you're getting that from, he did the same thing in Unite, was going to without a Genesis Wave, Sigma was much stronger than them power-wise. They won because Sigma lost that power (due to Wily and Eggman tampering with it) but the effect lingered and started to crack reality.


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## Volt manta (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Show a scan of that please. Just like @xenos5, if you can show a scan then you'll be right.
> 
> I don't know where you're getting that from, he did the same thing in Unite, was going to without a Genesis Wave, Sigma was much stronger than them power-wise. They won because Sigma lost that power (due to Wily and Eggman tampering with it) but the effect lingered and started to crack reality.


So in the second circumstance, Sonic actually reset the multiverse without the power of the Super Genesis Wave?


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## Catalyst75 (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> I don't buy your bullshit about "Super sonic being multiversal" and I never will. I am done arguing about that as nothing I say will get through your thick head.



I know I have come across this behavior elsewhere from someone very similar.

Shall we call this Sonic "GomuSonic", and make a "TonathanSuperman vs. GomuSonic" thread?

------------------------------------

Let me put my thoughts into here.  I have heard of the Super Genesis Wave on TV Tropes when browsing the series, but I needed to look up the details on the wiki.

From my understanding...Oh, I'll just let Sonic himself explain:



The Super Genesis Wave had already propagated in the above image, and Sonic's statement about using Chaos Control shows the connection between the two Chaos Energy-derived phenomena.  In other words, the Super Genesis Wave is a "refined", artificial form of Chaos Control.

The Super Genesis Wave is triggered by using the power of all seven Chaos Emeralds through a machine a version of Robotnik created.  Chaos Control is a technique that allows one to manipulate said energy.  In the above case, the ambient energy from the Super Genesis Wave.

This does not make Super Sonic "multiversal" by any means; the Genesis Wave itself is created by the Genesis Reactor tapping into the Chaos Emeralds.  Super Sonic and Super Armor Mega Man were not affected because *they themselves are empowered with Chaos Energy.
*
They are simply manipulating the Chaos Energy of a process that had already finished to undo what was done.



> So in the second circumstance, Sonic actually reset the multiverse without the power of the Super Genesis Wave?



No.  There was a time paradox reset.  Chaos Control couldn't do anything to fix what happened in "Worlds Unite".   Xander used a Genesis Portal to go to the point where Sigma would have kick-started the event, and killed him before Sigma could transfer himself into Sonic's world.

Reactions: Like 1


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> That's his own time stop... Of course he can move in it. What's the point of not being able to move in a time you stop? Jotaro always had the ability to use time stop, but he didn't know it until seeing Dio do it multiple times. Does that mean Jojo had an immunity to Time Stop before this? Nope. Your logic is not sound for this, also Sonic is immune to time stops, unlike Hit, he did not have a time stop switch, yet could still move in Flash-man's Time stop which affects everything.
> 
> Actually it is. Because once again, you need to show it affecting a being on Multiversal Super Sonic's scale.
> 
> You'd need to prove that Black Goku or Zamasu are on par with Zeno even if that were the case. Zeno is the strongest character in DBS, no one comes close to his abilities.



Do you not know what hax is? By definition a character's durability does not mean shit against it. You have to have a specific resistance against it to not be effected by it. 

Beerus Hakai's sonic, Sonic's soul gets destroyed, end of.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Volt manta said:


> So in the second circumstance, Sonic actually reset the multiverse without the power of the Super Genesis Wave?


The power of the Genesis Wave is Chaos Energy. Chaos Emeralds. It's not that it isn't the power of the Genesis Wave, it's that Chaos Energy is a term used for EVERYTHING that involves Chaos Energy. The wave was emitted by the Chaos Emeralds, Sonic and Megaman used the energy of the Chaos Emeralds to transform not the Super Genesis Wave. The first instance they didn't use it either.



xenos5 said:


> Do you not know what hax is? By definition a character's durability does not mean shit against it. You have to have a specific resistance against it to not be effected by it.
> 
> Beerus Hakai's sonic, Sonic's soul gets destroyed, end of.



Then show me when Beerus used it on Zeno or a God comparable to or above him and you should be fine.



Catalyst75 said:


> I know I have come across this behavior elsewhere from someone very similar.
> 
> Shall we call this Sonic "GomuSonic", and make a "TonathanSuperman vs. GomuSonic" thread?


Whatever you want to call it.



Catalyst75 said:


> They are simply manipulating the Chaos Energy of a process that had already finished to undo what was done.


Because the multiverse was already destroyed. Right? So they had to create another one. How did they go about doing that?


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## Punchsplosion (Feb 15, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> I know I have come across this behavior elsewhere from someone very similar.
> 
> Shall we call this Sonic "GomuSonic", and make a "TonathanSuperman vs. GomuSonic" thread?
> 
> ...



Okay....I have question.

How does that not yield (I'm not arguing multiversal) DC/Durability to whatever energy they are manipulating?  Especially, if they undo everything happens in a relatively short time frame.  Once again, I'm not arguing for Gomu's points.

I'll just use the FFVII example.

Cloud is empowered by the spirit energy of the Life Stream.  Hax like Toad and damage spells like Fire are empowered by the spirit energy of the Life Stream.  Cloud resists Toad and tanks a high level Fire spell.  It yields him resistance to transfiguration and Durability to the amount of energy the Fire spell can produce.  We don't enforce specialized circumstances for Cloud (and company) to say that he doesn't get the durability because he is empowered by the same stuff that the Fire spell is as well.

Just want some clarification.  Because it would seem that Super Sonic still gets scaled to the energy output of the Genesis Wave with that explanation.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Punchsplosion said:


> Okay....I have question.
> 
> How does that not yield (I'm not arguing multiversal) DC/Durability to whatever energy they are manipulating?  Especially, if they undo everything happens in a relatively short time frame.  Once again, I'm not arguing for Gomu's points.
> 
> ...


I don't mind you not defending my points, thank you for just seeing how ridiculous this is. At least you see the problem.


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## Gordo solos (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Nope, all I know is Super Sonic is far faster than Sonic. That doesn't matter though because DBS hax is not powerful enough to kill Sonic, Time Stop, Teleportation and Chaos Energy disintegrate them. Because Millions of Universes versus 24 and whatnot, and that's also by their strongest character, doesn't scale to the gods or even the Dai Shinkai who is stated to be "the strongest warrior" by Whis.


Errr you don't know the definite value for his speed? Billions of times FTL is severely below the Angels

Even the Hakaishin are accepted be at least that fast


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> Errr you don't know the definite value for his speed? Billions of times FTL is severely below the Angels
> 
> Even the Hakaishin are accepted be at least that fast


Good thing this is Super Sonic who should be far faster than Base... which I keep saying. And it still does not matter. Time Stop, Teleportation and Chaos Energy Manipulation.

Also don't forget it said "billions to trillions" of times as a low-ball. Zen-O is far stronger than anything in Super, he's leagues above the Gods and the Angels.


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## Gordo solos (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Good thing this is Super Sonic who should be far faster than Base... which I keep saying. And it still does not matter. Time Stop, Teleportation and Chaos Energy Manipulation.
> 
> Also don't forget it said "billions to trillions" of times as a low-ball. Zen-O is far stronger than anything in Super, he's leagues above the Gods and the Angels.


Yeah, but by how much? Being "far faster" than billions of times FTL means nothing to DBS.

Whis is quadrillion's of times FTL at the bare minimum (flying across entire galaxies in a couple of seconds is a bitch). All the other Angels are on par with him. There's Dai Shinkan who's "far faster" than the Angels, and naturally there's two Zenos (there's actually more of him in different timelines but I won't get into that) who shit over everyone else

As for the hax, pretty sure he needs to be fast enough to use it (unless I'm mistaken) and he's at a disadvantage in speed here from what I'm seeing

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Volt manta (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> The power of the Genesis Wave is Chaos Energy. Chaos Emeralds. It's not that it isn't the power of the Genesis Wave, it's that Chaos Energy is a term used for EVERYTHING that involves Chaos Energy. The wave was emitted by the Chaos Emeralds, Sonic and Megaman used the energy of the Chaos Emeralds to transform not the Super Genesis Wave. The first instance they didn't use it either.


But they actually reset their realities? And without the Super Genesis Wave?


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Then show me when Beerus used it on Zeno or a God comparable to or above him and you should be fine.





That's not necessary at all. It doesn't matter if you're multiversal or if you're fucking omniversal. If your soul has no defense against soul hax, soul hax will destroy your soul.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> Yeah, but by how much? Being "far faster" than billions of times FTL means nothing to DBS.
> 
> Whis is quadrillion's of times FTL at the bare minimum (flying across entire galaxies in a couple of seconds is a bitch). All the other Angels are on par with him. There's Dai Shinkan who's "far faster" than the Angels, and naturally there's two Zenos (there's actually more of him in different timelines but I won't get into that) who shit over everyone else
> 
> As for the hax, pretty sure he needs to be fast enough to use it (unless I'm mistaken) and he's at a disadvantage in speed here from what I'm seeing


Alright... was trying to hold this back so someone could look at it, but I see I'm going to have to pull it out, maybe someone can look at it now.

plus.google.com/103034663155486160860/posts/C5Mpcu3VAi8

Not that it'll be accepted. But I just want to see.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> That's not necessary at all. It doesn't matter if you're multiversal or if you're fucking omniversal. If your soul has no defense against soul hax, soul hax will destroy your soul.


It has always been necessary. Please do, because you're implying that Zen-O can be killed by Beerus.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Volt manta said:


> But they actually reset their realities? And without the Super Genesis Wave?


OMFG bro... The Super Genesis Wave is Chaos Energy. There are not two different energies being used here. The Super Genesis Wave is a byproduct of Chaos Energy. If you keep asking stupid questions I'm going to start being more unpleasant and ignoring you.

I see no one wants to answer @Punchsplosion 's question btfw.


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## twirdman (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> It has always been necessary. Please do, because you're implying that Zen-O can be killed by Beerus.



Or Zeno has soul destruction resistance.  This is literally how it always goes.  If someone has hax we don't give resistance unless the person they are against has specifically shown resistance.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

twirdman said:


> Or Zeno has soul destruction resistance.  This is literally how it always goes.  If someone has hax we don't give resistance unless the person they are against has specifically shown resistance.


Then you'd need to show it being used on a character more powerful. That's called "feats" btw.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Alright... was trying to hold this back so someone could look at it, but I see I'm going to have to pull it out, maybe someone can look at it now.
> 
> plus.google.com/103034663155486160860/posts/C5Mpcu3VAi8
> 
> Not that it'll be accepted. But I just want to see.


Make sure no one forgets this. Has some interesting information.


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Then you'd need to show it being used on a character more powerful. That's called "feats" btw.



Why are you being so obtuse? Hax by definition bypasses physical durability. It doesn't matter how high the durability.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Why are you being so obtuse? Hax by definition bypasses physical durability. It doesn't matter how high the durability.


Nah, when I joined threads about it, it was always "was it used on anyone more powerful". Considering in DBS, hax like Time Skip can be broken by characters like Goku who is inferior to Sonic, you'd be hard press for me to believe anything you say. Especially since DBS is one of the series I study the most. You're telling this to a guy who goes into deeper detail about the series.


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## Blade (Feb 15, 2017)

22 pages

22 pages without making sense and being an eternal time loop of annoyance



:vegitopls

Reactions: Like 4


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Punchsplosion said:


> Okay....I have question.
> 
> How does that not yield (I'm not arguing multiversal) DC/Durability to whatever energy they are manipulating?  Especially, if they undo everything happens in a relatively short time frame.  Once again, I'm not arguing for Gomu's points.
> 
> ...


Still waiting on someone to answer this. I want clarification too.


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> *Nah, when I joined threads about it, it was always "was it used on anyone more powerful".* Considering in DBS, hax like Time Skip can be broken by characters like Goku who is inferior to Sonic, you'd be hard press for me to believe anything you say. Especially since DBS is one of the series I study the most. You're telling this to a guy who goes into deeper detail about the series.



Whatever threads you're talking about must've been infested with complete retards. That is not how hax works in the slightest.

You seem to have a rotten foundation for VS debating. So it doesn't matter how "in depth" you think you've gone into DBS since you don't understand shit and you can't debate for shit.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Whatever threads you're talking about must've been infested with complete retards. That is not how hax works in the slightest.


Oh trust me. This thread seems just like the others.

You still have yet to show me that resistance to Time Stop. The effects on a stronger being. Etc. Pretty sure Beerus can't do that to Whis, and it ain't because of soul hax.



xenos5 said:


> You seem to have a rotten foundation for VS debating. So it doesn't matter how "in depth" you think you've gone into DBS it doesn't matter since you don't understand shit and you can't debate for shit.



That's funny coming from the guy who doesn't accept feats scans and word of god.

Should I explain to you what an actual debate is? Facts and evidence doesn't seem to work here when there's a bias.


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## twirdman (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Alright... was trying to hold this back so someone could look at it, but I see I'm going to have to pull it out, maybe someone can look at it now.
> 
> plus.google.com/103034663155486160860/posts/C5Mpcu3VAi8
> 
> Not that it'll be accepted. But I just want to see.




Well I can immediately tell you the first calculation is completely wrong.  2.5450135e+42(2.5 tredecillion mt) = 1.064833648e+58 N this is nonsensical.  This is like saying gravity is 9/8 m/s the numbers are the same but you are using the wrong units.  Joules cannot be equated to newtons and the calculator specifically say it is converting MT, which is the same type of things as joules, to newton meters not simply newtons.

I'll need to examine the second one a bit more in depth but given the first calc I'm not holding out much hope for it being correct.  Also the fact you didn't spot that error makes me question how much you've really thought about this and how much you just want to spout wank,


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

twirdman said:


> Well I can immediately tell you the first calculation is completely wrong.  2.5450135e+42(2.5 tredecillion mt) = 1.064833648e+58 N this is nonsensical.  This is like saying gravity is 9/8 m/s the numbers are the same but you are using the wrong units.  Joules cannot be equated to newtons and the calculator specifically say it is converting MT, which is the same type of things as joules, to newton meters not simply newtons.
> 
> I'll need to examine the second one a bit more in depth but given the first calc I'm not holding out much hope for it being correct.  Also the fact you didn't spot that error makes me question how much you've really thought about this and how much you just want to spout wank,


Not from me though. You'll have to take it up with that guy. Like I said, Billions and Trillions is a low-ball. That'd be Sonic's casual speed.


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## Merlight (Feb 15, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> Yeah, but by how much?





1000x his base it seems


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Oh trust me. This thread seems just like the others.



You've tanked your reputation to the point you're becoming a joke like Tonathan was. You trying to sit on a high horse here is laughable. You seem to have learned about how hax works from people who know nothing about how hax works. You should lurk through a bunch of threads and come back when you know how it ACTUALLY works.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Merlight said:


> 1000x his base it seems


Again, that was just from Sonic fighting with him though. The speed at which he could move or attack should be far higher than that considering that they explode what @Ampchu called, "A galaxy-sized zone".

Same shit happens in DB.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> You've tanked your reputation to the point you're becoming a joke like Tonathan was. You trying to sit on a high horse here is laughable. You seem to have learned about how hax works from people who know nothing about how hax works. You should lurk through a bunch of threads and come back when you know how it ACTUALLY works.


Except I'm not sitting on a high horse. I'm debating with @Merlight. You don't know what you're talking about so I keep saying it. I keep showing Multiverse, Multiverse, Multiverse, and you keep saying "blasphemy". You don't even know how hax fucking works. Has he shown it being used on another God of his level for example. Show it or it doesn't apply. Has its been stated that he can destroy anything he desires, even stronger beings? Show it, or it doesn't matter. It's always been like this.

Funny thing is, I've been here longer than your ass. You've just been licking more tips than I have.


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## TYPE-Rey (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Except I'm not sitting on a high horse. I'm debating with @Merlight. You don't know what you're talking about so I keep saying it. I keep showing Multiverse, Multiverse, Multiverse, and you keep saying "blasphemy". You don't even know how hax fucking works. Has he shown it being used on another God of his level for example. Show it or it doesn't apply. Has its been stated that he can destroy anything he desires, even stronger beings? Show it, or it doesn't matter. It's always been like this.
> 
> Funny thing is, I've been here longer than your ass.


 Hax works on a person unless that person showed some kind of  resistance to that specific hax technique. Dosen't matter if the person who gets attacked with hax is stronger or not than the person who fired it


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> You don't even know how hax fucking works. Has he shown it being used on another God of his level for example. Show it or it doesn't apply. Has its been stated that he can destroy anything he desires, even stronger beings? Show it, or it doesn't matter. It's always been like this.



It has never been like that and I have no idea about what fantasy world you've been living in where that's been the case. 

You can ask anyone here even the people who agree with you in certain areas and they'll tell you that hax does not work the way you are trying to say it works. Hax bypasses physical durability. When someone's soul is being attacked their physical durability means jack and shit. The strength and durability of someone's physical body does not in any way matter in regards to their soul's defenses.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Feb 15, 2017)

Punchsplosion said:


> Okay....I have question.
> 
> How does that not yield (I'm not arguing multiversal) DC/Durability to whatever energy they are manipulating?  Especially, if they undo everything happens in a relatively short time frame.  Once again, I'm not arguing for Gomu's points.
> 
> ...


Okay, Cloud is not empowered by the lifestream directly. Materia is a crystallization of knowledge formed by the lifestream/make energy. Using the materia grants the person the knowledge, it doesnt empower them and Cloud is >>>> any materia shown


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## TYPE-Rey (Feb 15, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Hax works on a person unless that person showed some kind of  resistance to that specific hax technique. Dosen't matter if the person who gets attacked with hax is stronger or not than the person who fired it


Example. Lancer from F/S/N is capable of killing Arcueid , a being much much much much stronger than him because of his haxxedd spear. Probably never gonna happen because he will never get close but it's a posibility


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Hax works on a person unless that person showed some kind of  resistance to that specific hax technique. Dosen't matter if the person who gets attacked with hax is stronger or not than the person who fired it


Then the rules have changed since I've been here then... Just like the rules for how to determine DC and the rules with how characters don't have to show feats to do something... So many things have changed... So many things have stayed the same.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> It has never been like that and I have no idea about what fantasy world you've been living in where that's been the case.
> 
> You can ask anyone here even the people who agree with you in certain areas and they'll tell you that hax does not work the way you are trying to say it works. Hax bypasses physical durability. When someone's soul is being attacked their physical durability means jack and shit. The strength and durability of someone's physical body does not in any way matter in regards to their soul's defenses.





Gomu said:


> Then the rules have changed since I've been here then... Just like the rules for how to determine DC and the rules with how characters don't have to show feats to do something... So many things have changed... So many things have stayed the same.


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## twirdman (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Not from me though. You'll have to take it up with that guy. Like I said, Billions and Trillions is a low-ball. That'd be Sonic's casual speed.



You read it though right?  You aren't just posting things without reading them and if you did read it how did you not see how flawed the first calc is.  It is even more flawed than I thought since after equating energy with force it equates acceleration with speed.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

twirdman said:


> You read it though right?  You aren't just posting things without reading them and if you did read it how did you not see how flawed the first calc is.  It is even more flawed than I thought since after equating energy with force it equates acceleration with speed.


I  read it through, just wanted to get it checked. It's not gonna be accepted even if it was true, because bias. Everything here was done in bias, even blatant shit that should be simple. Bias.


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## TYPE-Rey (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Then the rules have changed since I've been here then... Just like the rules for how to determine DC and the rules with how characters don't have to show feats to do something... So many things have changed... So many things have stayed the same.


No the rules never changed .. you either don't understand the concept , or you are one vile asshole twisting stuff around to accomodate your desired result. I tend to think it
s the latter, but that's just me

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> No the rules never changed .. you either don't understand the concept , or you are one vile asshole twisting stuff around to accomodate your desired result. I tend to think it
> s the latter, but that's just me


Nah the rules have changed, then again I didn't come back here until Summer of 2016 and i was gone since 2012. The rules have changed young-blood. They always change when a show or character no one likes gets feats towards a "superior quality series".

Also that's very ironic right now.


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## twirdman (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> I  read it through, just wanted to get it checked. It's not gonna be accepted even if it was true, because bias. Everything here was done in bias, even blatant shit that should be simple. Bias.



You read it and didn't see the flaw in the first calc?  Again I have to ask do you have any idea how calcs actually work.  Do you know the difference between energy and force?  Do you know the difference between speed and acceleration?  I mean it'd be one thing if he did a kinetic energy calc for a FTL feat but he did something infinitely stupider than that and you needed us to tell you it was wrong?


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Nah the rules have changed, then again I didn't come back here until Summer of 2016 and i was gone since 2012. The rules have changed young-blood. They always change when a show or character no one likes gets feats towards a "superior quality series".



You are being delusional. There was never any rule or conensus in the OBD establishing hax doesn't work on stronger characters. It's always been quite the opposite actually.


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## TYPE-Rey (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Nah the rules have changed, then again I didn't come back here until Summer of 2016 and i was gone since 2012. The rules have changed young-blood. They always change when a show or character no one likes gets feats towards a "superior quality series".


Even IF the rules changed, you could have done a little reasearch and a  little lurking and you would have found out . It's not our problem that you are not prepared or informed about basic stuff.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

twirdman said:


> You read it and didn't see the flaw in the first calc?  Again I have to ask do you have any idea how calcs actually work.  Do you know the difference between energy and force?  Do you know the difference between speed and acceleration?  I mean it'd be one thing if he did a kinetic energy calc for a FTL feat but he did something infinitely stupider than that and you needed us to tell you it was wrong?


I wanted someone to check it, it wasn't made from me. I wanted to see what would be acceptable and what wouldn't, I always say I'm not a calcer, I don't do math here, I collect feats and statements and scour the net for statements and word of god, I've never been a calculator, then again I had to repeatedly tell you and the others to use common sense so intelligence comes in all shapes and sizes.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> You are being delusional. There was never any rule or conensus in the OBD establishing hax doesn't work on stronger characters. It's always been quite the opposite actually.


Using the shit that was redone in 2015-2016 helps you how?


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Even IF the rules changed, you could have done a little reasearch and a  little lurking and you would have found out . It's not our problem that you are not prepared or informed about basic stuff.


Once again, I don't care. Sonic doesn't get affected by it as Enerjak tried a similar feat anyway, it didn't work.

Enerjak is by far superior to anything Beerus has or ever will show btw.


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## twirdman (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> I wanted someone to check it, it wasn't made from me. I wanted to see what would be acceptable and what wouldn't, I always say I'm not a calcer, I don't do math here, I collect feats and statements and scour the net for statements and word of god, I've never been a calculator, then again I had to repeatedly tell you and the others to use common sense so intelligence comes in all shapes and sizes.



Spend an afternoon learning the most basic of stuff so you don't post utter trash.


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Using the shit that was redone in 2015-2016 helps you how?



I've been here since 2014. I'm pretty sure that page is just the same as it was before being redone.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

twirdman said:


> Spend an afternoon learning the most basic of stuff so you don't post utter trash.


Considering I've heard you guys spout bullshit ALL WEEK you'll live.


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## twirdman (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Once again, I don't care. Sonic doesn't get affected by it as Enerjak tried a similar feat anyway, it didn't work.
> 
> Enerjak is by far superior to anything Beerus has or ever will show btw.



What you showed for Enerjak you yourself said was deatomization not soul hax.  Do you have any scans of him using soul hax?


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## Volt manta (Feb 15, 2017)

Punchsplosion said:


> Okay....I have question.
> 
> How does that not yield (I'm not arguing multiversal) DC/Durability to whatever energy they are manipulating?  Especially, if they undo everything happens in a relatively short time frame.  Once again, I'm not arguing for Gomu's points.
> 
> ...


This is something slightly different. Just because you can manipulate energy on a certain scale doesn't mean that you generate that amount of energy on your own. Like being plugged into any power source; once it's gone, it no longer applies to you. And the Genesis Wave wasn't created by Sonic.

To your example, it's like taking feats from a Sephiroth soaked in Life Stream, and applying all the feats from the Life Stream to his normal base form.


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## Punchsplosion (Feb 15, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Okay, Cloud is not empowered by the lifestream directly. Materia is a crystallization of knowledge formed by the lifestream/make energy. Using the materia grants the person the knowledge, it doesnt empower them and Cloud is >>>> any materia shown



Cloud (and everything that is born) is apart of the Life Stream.  Given that the expanded unincluded back story from the translated Ultimania states that the entire universe started as one giant Life Stream before all of the planets and stars formed and individual Life Streams cropped up.  But it seems to suggest that all Life Streams are connected.  Cloud actively utilizes his willpower to tap into more spiritual energy....aka the Life Stream if the universe.

However, I will use a better example.  Sephiroth spent years inside the Life Stream drawing power from it to perform multiple feats.  The same still applies to him.  He also crafts a negative Life Stream through Geostigma to further enhance his power.

Further more.  The materia is knowledge and power.  They use mako and materias sans a caster to power numerous machines.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

twirdman said:


> What you showed for Enerjak you yourself said was deatomization not soul hax.  Do you have any scans of him using soul hax?


Nope. If you can show me a scan of anyone resisting time stop (and no not time skip guys) you'll be good.


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## Nep Heart (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Using the shit that was redone in 2015-2016 helps you how?



 To be fair, there was very minimal changes to that article beyond a few changes in wording. Other than that, it's the very same article from the original wikispace that has been around well before 2012. Even back at that time, the article still noted soul manipulation is broken because physical stats are irrelevant against such a metaphysical attack.

 So, yeah, no, durability =/= hax resistance, those require their own feats separate from being physically tough.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## TYPE-Rey (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Once again, I don't care. Sonic doesn't get affected by it as Enerjak tried a similar feat anyway, it didn't work.
> 
> Enerjak is by far superior to anything Beerus has or ever will show btw.


So when you get called out for your cancerous bullshit you don't care.. what a great fucking attitude you have there. Thank God there aren't a lot of people like you in here, otherwise this would be one of the lower cricles of Hell. I can't believe i'm saying this but i think you have the potential to be worse than Tonathan.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> To be fair, there was very minimal changes to that article beyond a few changes in wording. Other than that, it's the very same article from the original wikispace that has been around well before 2012. Even back at that time, the article still noted soul manipulation is broken because physical stats are irrelevant against such a metaphysical attack.
> 
> So, yeah, no, durability =/= hax resistance, those require their own feats separate from being physically tough.


A type of hax would be Super Sonic's invincibility correct? Other than what can actually hurt him right?


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## Punchsplosion (Feb 15, 2017)

Volt manta said:


> This is something slightly different. Just because you can manipulate energy on a certain scale doesn't mean that you generate that amount of energy on your own. Like being plugged into any power source; once it's gone, it no longer applies to you. And the Genesis Wave wasn't created by Sonic.
> 
> To your example, it's like taking feats from a Sephiroth soaked in Life Stream, and applying all the feats from the Life Stream to his normal base form.



That makes sense.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> So when you get called out for your cancerous bullshit you don't care.. what a great fucking attitude you have there. Thank God there aren't a lot of people like you in here, otherwise this would be one of the lower cricles of Hell. I can't believe i'm saying this but i think you have the potential to be worse than Tonathan.


When the cancer is a series doesn't get it's just due because you dislike it, is that not cancerous as well. You're coming at me as if I care. But I don't. All I care about is the facts. You've called me a liar. Cool, prove I'm a liar with evidence. But back in 2012, people asked that question. You guys want to forget that, that's fine. It's got nothing to do with me. If hax affects him, cool. But Sonic still has Time Stop, Invincibility, Invisible Speed, Vibration Manipulation, Chaos Energy Manipulation, and Teleportation.


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 15, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> To be fair, there was very minimal changes to that article beyond a few changes in wording. Other than that, it's the very same article from the original wikispace that has been around well before 2012. Even back at that time, the article still noted soul manipulation is broken because physical stats are irrelevant against such a metaphysical attack.
> 
> So, yeah, no, durability =/= hax resistance, those require their own feats separate from being physically tough.


Again with my Harlock example.

He himself is a street leveler but he's got mind and soulfuck resistance feats up to planet level.

If Sonic shows that kind of resistance on a universal scale, he would get past Hakai fine.


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## Nep Heart (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> A type of hax would be Super Sonic's invincibility correct? Other than what can actually hurt him right?



 I'd say case by case, depends on the category of attacks and influence invulnerability has negated as well as the best scope it has demonstrated.

 Example: If invulnerability has negated planetary reality warping, no amount of reality warping equal to or less than that will ever get around that invulnerability.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Punchsplosion said:


> That makes sense.


But here's what they aren't telling you.

The Chaos Emeralds are the main power source, Sonic could manipulate that source to change what that source could change. There weren't two different sources here. They changed what should not have been changed if that were the case as the Super Genesis Wave should have been too large to change just like the effect Sigma-3 had on all those different realities. So the fact that they both changed their universes that power would still apply to them.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> I'd say case by case, depends on the category of attacks and influence invulnerability has negated as well as the best scope it has demonstrated.
> 
> Example: If invulnerability has negated planetary reality warping, no amount of reality warping equal to or less than that will ever get around that invulnerability.


Then they'd need to show that Super Sonic's invincibility wouldn't protect him from the hax or would i need to show it wouldn't. Because once again, De-atomization did not affect him and he makes it a point to say to Enerjak-Knuckles that "I'm invincible" when he's trying to use multiple haxes on him.


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Nope. If you can show me a scan of anyone resisting time stop (and no not time skip guys) you'll be good.



Hit has time skip and time stop as separate abilities. He used timestop against Goku and he also used it against the mob boss. You can clearly see him stating "Time for everyone except us has been stopped" in this clip


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Hit has time skip and time stop as separate abilities. He used timestop against Goku and he also used it against the mob boss. You can clearly see him stating "Time for everyone except us has been stopped" in this clip


But that was his own time stop, it does not mean that he's immune to other time stops. You'd need to prove he was immune because of course a person with their own time stop wouldn't be affected by their own time stop, that would make no sense. You'd have to prove that shit.


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Then they'd need to show that Super Sonic's invincibility wouldn't protect him from the hax or would i need to show it wouldn't. Because once again, De-atomization did not affect him and he makes it a point to say to Enerjak-Knuckles that "I'm invincible" when he's trying to use multiple haxes on him.



You'd need to show it would. With a scan of attack that is meant to directly attack Sonic or Super Sonic's soul not affecting him. If he actually has a feat like that.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> You'd need to show it would. With a scan of attack that is meant to directly attack Sonic or Super Sonic's soul not affecting him. If he actually has a feat like that.


I already admitted he doesn't. But that also would not matter as Time Stop.


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## Nep Heart (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Then they'd need to show that Super Sonic's invincibility wouldn't protect him from the hax or would i need to show it wouldn't. Because once again, De-atomization did not affect him and he makes it a point to say to Enerjak-Knuckles that "I'm invincible" when he's trying to use multiple haxes on him.



 Pretty much everything the invulnerability covered. If it's shown instances of negating messing with Super Sonic's soul on the same level or better than Beerus' Hakai, he should lolnope it if that is the case.



Blakk Jakk said:


> Again with my Harlock example.
> 
> He himself is a street leveler but he's got mind and soulfuck resistance feats up to planet level.
> 
> If Sonic shows that kind of resistance on a universal scale, he would get past Hakai fine.



 Harlock is gonna be the bad physical stats, massive hax resistance example of OBD 2017, isn't he?


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> But that was his own time stop, it does not mean that he's immune to other time stops. You'd need to prove he was immune because of course a person with their own time stop wouldn't be affected by their own time stop, that would make no sense. You'd have to prove that shit.



Hit has stored enough stopped time to make a small pocket dimension. He is able to move around in that environment unihibited despite it not being time he created but already existing time. He should have time hax resistance on the level where someone should need to have greater time hax than his own to affect him.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Pretty much everything the invulnerability covered. If it's shown instances of negating messing with Super Sonic's soul on the same level or better than Beerus' Hakai, he should lolnope it if that is the case.
> 
> 
> 
> Harlock is gonna be the bad physical stats, massive hax resistance example of OBD 2017, isn't he?


Then they would win based on that argument, I have no problem stating that. But Sonic would still have the hax to stop them and kill them before they could Hakai.


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Then they would win based on that argument, I have no problem stating that. But Sonic would still have the hax to stop them and kill them *before they could* Hakai.



That implies Super Sonic has a speed advantage against Beerus. He doesn't. We've been over this. Beerus Hakais sonic before he can react.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Hit has stored enough stopped time to make a small pocket dimension. He is able to move around in that environment unihibited despite it not being time he created but already existing time. He should have time hax resistance on the level where someone should need to have greater time hax than his own to affect him.


Once again... You'd have to show that he is immune to time stop. He can't even hurt Sonic for that matter. Anyone with Hakai I'll grant you that. But Sonic is faster than most of those characters, Gods would be the only issues, not even the Angels as they haven't shown said resistances. He's still Multiversal, and even if you don't believe that, he's still low Multiversal from fighting Mammoth Mogul and Enerjak.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> That implies Super Sonic has a speed advantage against Beerus. He doesn't. We've been over this. Beerus Hakais sonic before he can react.


Except he doesn't. Sonic is still billions to trillions of times the speed of light in base. He's faster as Super Sonic. If anything they'd be on equal terms in speed.


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## twirdman (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Then they would win based on that argument, I have no problem stating that. But Sonic would still have* the hax to stop them and kill them before they could Hakai.[*/QUOTE]
> 
> Why?  You haven't shown any feat remotely putting Sonic as fast as DBS.  You cannot just keep saying it is true.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

Once again, the feat of destroying 12 universes is in the quadrillions, from a being that's above anything other characters would be able to do.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

OK. Please do not tell me that lower tier characters get speed feats from God tiers. Holy shit this place has fucking changed so much... I'm going to have a field day with One Piece then.


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Except he doesn't. Sonic is still billions to trillions of times the speed of light in base. He's faster as Super Sonic. If anything they'd be on equal terms in speed.



Beerus is in the high trillions to possibly quadrillions. They are not equal in speed at all. 



			
				God Movement said:
			
		

> Essentially we know it would take Whis a confirmed 35 minutes to travel to Earth from Beerus' planet. If so, even assuming Beerus' planet was on the complete opposite side of the universe there's no way Whis could possibly travel from Kaio's planet (which is in the centre of the universe) to Earth (which is confirmed in the DBS manga to be on the edge of the universe) in a mere 3 minutes.
> 
> The distance should be as follows (icons are irrelevant as they are simply placeholders. For all intents and purposes, relative to Enma Daioh's place Kaio's planet is in the center of the universe as it is only a measly 1 million km distance away which is nothing to a light year):
> 
> ...







Gomu said:


> Once again, the feat of destroying 12 universes is in the quadrillions, from a being that's above anything other characters would be able to do.



No, the feat of destroying 12 universes is in the low quintillions. Whis has shown multiple feats in the quadrillions and Beerus is not far behind Whis in speed.


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 15, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Harlock is gonna be the bad physical stats, massive hax resistance example of OBD 2017, isn't he?


Is there a more perfect encapsulation than that?


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Beerus is in the high trillions to possibly quadrillions. They are not equal in speed at all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I heard "possible", remember this is a low-balled Base Sonic we're talking about. You think that Super Sonic, a character that's supposed to be vastly superior to Sonic, would be that much lower at Base Sonic's CASUAL speed.


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> I heard "possible", remember this is a low-balled Base Sonic we're talking about. You think that Super Sonic, a character that's supposed to be vastly superior to Sonic, would be that much lower at Base Sonic's CASUAL speed.



I'm not going to entertain this bullshit. Unless you have a speed feat with an actual value in the high trillions for Super Sonic there is no reason to arbitrarily assume that's the exact amount higher in speed Super Sonic is compared to a speed feat from Base Sonic. You can't use guesswork to try to get a character to the speed you want them to be at. That's not measurable so it's unquantifiable.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> I'm not going to entertain this bullshit. Unless you have a speed feat with an actual value in the high trillions for Super Sonic there is no reason to arbitrarily assume that's the exact amount higher in speed Super Sonic is compared to a speed feat from Base Sonic. You can't use guesswork to try to get a character to the speed you want them to be at. That's not measurable so it's unquantifiable.


And that's why I said "let's just say they're on a similar speed to one another", he would still be time stopped because that would be the case.


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## twirdman (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> I heard "possible", remember this is a low-balled Base Sonic we're talking about. You think that Super Sonic, a character that's supposed to be vastly superior to Sonic, would be that much lower at Base Sonic's CASUAL speed.



Except you haven't provided a speed feat above the 77 billion for Sonic as base.  The feat for Beerus is 10k times that fast.  Unless you have something showing Sonic moving in the very high trillion to low quadrillion Sonic loses in speed.

You cannot just say they are similar in speed when there are multiple orders of magnitude separating them.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

twirdman said:


> Except you haven't provided a speed feat above the 77 billion for Sonic as base.  The feat for Beerus is 10k times that fast.  Unless you have something showing Sonic moving in the very high trillion to low quadrillion Sonic loses in speed.


You finish reading that thing I placed. Quintillions and Sextillions?

Sonic ran from one side to the other side of the multiverse, 148,000 is a small part of that multiverse, Base Sonic = Quintillions of times, Super = Sextillions of times. Or did you stop looking it over, I'll ask someone else if you did.

So do you want it to be similar speed or not, otherwise people seem to be getting sniped.


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> And that's why I said "let's just say they're on a similar speed to one another", he would still be time stopped because that would be the case.



Why should I accept them being on a similar speed tier? That's being far too generous giving Super Sonic a higher speed boost than has ever been shown. You can say "base sonic did it casually" all you want but if you don't have proof Super Sonic's speed multiplier is on the level if boosts him to the high trillions c I have no reason to accept your claim.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Why should I accept them being on a similar speed tier? That's being far too generous giving Super Sonic a higher speed boost than has ever been shown. You can say "base sonic did it casually" all you want but if you don't have proof Super Sonic's speed multiplier is on the level if boosts him to the high trillions c I have no reason to accept your claim.


Sonic is Quintillions to Sextillions of times the speed of light, that's why. I'm gonna become what you guys wanted, time to stop trying to be civil when you guys haven't been civil. Zen-O is getting sniped, Beerus and the other gods are non-factors, and Sonic completely beats the shit out of the DBS verse. Dislike that, but it's true. He doesn't even have to lift a finger. Reality warp the universe out of existence with a "snap".

And it's one of those casual slow snaps. The ones where you smile before doing it because they can't do shit about it.


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## twirdman (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> You finish reading that thing I placed. Quintillions and Sextillions?
> 
> Sonic ran from one side to the other side of the multiverse, 148,000 is a small part of that multiverse, Base Sonic = Quintillions of times, Super = Sextillions of times. Or did you stop looking it over, I'll ask someone else if you did.



Yeah the assumption in it were asinine.  Seemed like he was just multiplying shit together arbitrarily to get a super big number.  Also he pulled a time frame completely out of his ass but that isn't nearly as big as just assuming that Sonic crossed 1 billion zones because he ended up in a different universe than his own.  Or even that he entered a different universe and not simply a different zone when zones are separate universes anyways.  All we know is in his wrong turn he crossed a single zone and given the time frame of 1 minute that would be your number divided by one billion for a total of the 100 billion you cited before.


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> time to start spouting nonsense



Have fun with that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

twirdman said:


> Yeah the assumption in it were asinine.  Seemed like he was just multiplying shit together arbitrarily to get a super big number.  Also he pulled a time frame completely out of his ass but that isn't nearly as big as just assuming that Sonic crossed 1 billion zones because he ended up in a different universe than his own.  Or even that he entered a different universe and not simply a different zone when zones are separate universes anyways.  All we know is in his wrong turn he crossed a single zone and given the time frame of 1 minute that would be your number divided by one billion for a total of the 100 billion you cited before.


Sorry but running through the multiverse and the multiverse is stretched in light years, and Sonic was casually doing this beats whatever ya say. It's all good man, you don't have to accept it anymore. I'm going to have fun with this.


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## twirdman (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> *Sonic is Quintillions to Sextillions of times the speed of light*, that's why. I'm gonna become what you guys wanted, time to stop trying to be civil when you guys haven't been civil. Zen-O is getting sniped, Beerus and the other gods are non-factors, and Sonic completely beats the shit out of the DBS verse. Dislike that, but it's true. He doesn't even have to lift a finger. Reality warp the universe out of existence with a "snap".
> 
> And it's one of those casual slow snaps. The ones where you smile before doing it because they can't do shit about it.



No he's not.  I'll give you maybe 100 billion.  Hell I'll say he crossed the 1000 zones to get the 1000 copies of himself say he did this in 12 hours which is an earlier estimate, that would give 107 billion times light speed.  I'm not giving you he crossed 1 billion zones in a minute since that is utterly asinine.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Have fun with that.


I haven't been. I'm going to. Sonic's invincibility means he can tank whatever is thrown at him, he tanked Enerjak's hax, and thus we can assume he can tank the Gods' haxes. Not that it matters, when he enters they're already dead. Remember in that post about those calcs that he said Quintillion's is also a low-ball. But he's doing it for the masses. What a great guy he is, he doesn't want your brains to fry from the sheer speed this little blue bastard can move.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

twirdman said:


> No he's not.  I'll give you maybe 100 billion.  Hell I'll say he crossed the 1000 zones to get the 1000 copies of himself say he did this in 12 hours which is an earlier estimate, that would give 107 billion times light speed.  I'm not giving you he crossed 1 billion zones in a minute since that is utterly asinine.


Not a maybe. It's Quintillions. Sonic still got back to Sally and company within the same afternoon. If we low-ball that he's traversing thousands upon millions upon billions of times those light years just to get to the other side. It's what Evil Sonic said. He was on the complete opposite side of the Multiverse. And he was having PROBLEMS WITH DIRECTIONS! HILARIOUS!

But no worries though he still gets his ass whooped by anything above Multiversal+, if they can catch him. Hahaha... Sextillions of Times the speed of light. Damn.


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## twirdman (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> I haven't been. I'm going to. Sonic's invincibility means he can tank whatever is thrown at him, he tanked Enerjak's hax, and thus we can assume he can tank the Gods' haxes. Not that it matters, when he enters they're already dead. Remember in that post about those calcs that he said Quintillion's is also a low-ball. But he's doing it for the masses. What a great guy he is, he doesn't want your brains to fry from the sheer speed this little blue bastard can move.




Also in case you were wondering even with that ridiculous calc would still make him slow as fuck compared to Flash.  Just wanted you to know that since you claimed Sonic could beat the Flash.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

twirdman said:


> Also in case you were wondering even with that ridiculous calc would still make him slow as fuck compared to Flash.  Just wanted you to know that since you claimed Sonic could beat the Flash.


It's not ridiculous, it was calced right. The first one I'll give you because we don't know the sheer size of the zone, but he also had a good reason. He tried to use the relative size of a spacial zone instead going by word of god. So that's fine, he's wrong or he's right, still Multiversal Sonic by feats alone. But the speed boy... The speed boy BOY! Sextillions, This boy is burning the fuck out of some rubber.


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## Volt manta (Feb 15, 2017)



Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

It's funny how you bring that up yet ask questions about how a character with the ability to control and manipulate that energy to return an entire Multiverse into existence when it was explained multiple times why. Insane Trolling indeed. Chaos Emeralds aren't even Planet Level. They're just Wall Level. Everything in fiction is wall level.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

I think we've broken him  .


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## twirdman (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> It's not ridiculous, it was calced right. The first one I'll give you because we don't know the sheer size of the zone, but he also had a good reason. He tried to use the relative size of a spacial zone instead going by word of god. So that's fine, he's wrong or he's right, still Multiversal Sonic by feats alone. But the speed boy... The speed boy BOY! Sextillions, This boy is burning the fuck out of some rubber.



Except the scan could easily be and probably should be interpreted as there are a million zones in the multiverse.  There are not 1 million multiverse which were being crushed.  So that would cut the speed by a factor of 1000 by itself since you wouldn't multiply the number of zones by the number of zones.  The size of the zone is also bigger than he said so you account for that.  The calc is severely flawed.  Also why a 1 minute time frame.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> I think we've broken him  .


No I was trying to pander to the rules of trolls. Now I've just said "fuck it". But yeah, They get turn into Multiversal space dust.


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

twirdman said:


> Except the scan could easily be and probably should be interpreted as there are a million zones in the multiverse.  There are not 1 million multiverse which were being crushed.  So that would cut the speed by a factor of 1000 by itself since you wouldn't multiply the number of zones by the number of zones.  The size of the zone is also bigger than he said so you account for that.  The calc is severely flawed.  Also why a 1 minute time frame.


Nope. It's a Multiverse. Ian stated that the old universe was in fact a multiverse. Sonic fixed that. Mammoth was crushing separate multi-universes, but the Cosmic Interstate STILL connects to the Multiverse. Of which this bastard is completely correct. Word of God man... It's so beautiful... Ian man you're the greatest guy.


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

This is honestly hilarious. You can keep on rambling like a madman all you want, Gomu. It's vastly entertaining

Reactions: Like 3


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> This is honestly hilarious. You can keep on rambling like a madman all you want, Gomu. It's vastly entertaining


Not as entertaining as how Sonic can casually kill the entire DBS cast if he wants. 

"Time Stop..."


Then this happens.

"All in a days work."


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Not as entertaining as how Sonic can casually kill the entire DBS cast if he wants.
> 
> "Time Stop..."
> 
> ...



Your desperate attempts to make others salty only shows how salty you yourself are  . Your tears are delicious

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 2


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## Gomu (Feb 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Your desperate attempts to make others salty only shows how salty you yourself are  . Your tears are delicious


You mean you weren't with all your dislikes? The salt comes from the actions, every time your little DBSverse got destroyed you disliked me. You can take them back if you want now to save face on that. But it seems a certain person who constantly storms out is the person whose most salty. I stood my ground. 

Now I don't give a shit anymore. So have fun with that.

Remember though. DBS loses.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## xenos5 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> You mean you weren't with all your dislikes? The salt comes from the actions, every time your little DBSverse got destroyed you disliked me. You can take them back if you want now to save face on that. But it seems a certain person who constantly storms out is the person whose most salty. I stood my ground.
> 
> Now I don't give a shit anymore. So have fun with that.
> 
> Remember though. DBS loses.



I see idiocy in a post I dislike the post. Simple as that. You're going so tryhard with lengthy posts like this that you come off extremely childish . You put in so much effort for a reaction you'll never get.


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## Catalyst75 (Feb 15, 2017)

Punchsplosion said:


> How does that not yield (I'm not arguing multiversal) DC/Durability to whatever energy they are manipulating? Especially, if they undo everything happens in a relatively short time frame. Once again, I'm not arguing for Gomu's points.



*Because they cannot output that energy on their own. * 

The Super Genesis Wave Energy was generated by an external source.  Sonic said so himself: they were going to "channel" the Super Genesis Wave to restore the multiverse back to normal.  It was not a level of energy they produced themselves, but they can use Chaos Control in order to manipulate the ambient Chaos Energy of the Genesis Wave.  

In other words, Super Sonic on his own cannot generate that much Chaos Energy.  That is why he would not scale to the Super Genesis Wave's overall effect.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 7


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## Alchemist of Atlas (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Nope. It's a Multiverse. Ian stated that the old universe was in fact a multiverse. Sonic fixed that. Mammoth was crushing separate multi-universes, but the Cosmic Interstate STILL connects to the Multiverse. Of which this bastard is completely correct. Word of God man... It's so beautiful... Ian man you're the greatest guy.



You are one fine example of why Sonic's fandom is among the worst.

Reactions: Agree 6


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## Volt manta (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Chaos Emeralds aren't even Planet Level. They're just Wall Level. Everything in fiction is wall level.


This is so beautifully deluded in and out of context I had to make it my signature. It's February 15, and nothing in 2017 is ever going to make me laugh harder.

Reactions: Like 5


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## twirdman (Feb 15, 2017)

Volt manta said:


> This is so beautifully deluded in and out of context I had to make it my signature. It's February 15, and nothing in 2017 is ever going to make me laugh harder.



On the plus side that gives a boost to some characters.  Wall level Sherlock Holmes for the win.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 15, 2017)

twirdman said:


> On the plus side that gives a boost to some characters.  Wall level Sherlock Holmes for the win.


Harlock solos 

He don't even need the Arcadia to solo Bleach

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 2


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## marks3684 (Feb 15, 2017)

This thread went places. 



Blakk Jakk said:


> Harlock solos
> 
> He don't even need the Arcadia to solo Bleach

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Catalyst75 (Feb 15, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Not as entertaining as how Sonic can casually kill the entire DBS cast if he wants.
> 
> "Time Stop..."



Not the God-tier characters.  Super Sonic in any continuity has not shown himself to possess enough destructive capacity to destroy a Universe on his own.  Even if he can "stop time" for them, he does not have the power necessary to kill them.


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## Hachibi (Feb 16, 2017)




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## Blocky (Feb 16, 2017)

I love how the mods didn't close this after it went on for 11 pages.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Feb 16, 2017)

This was left open way too long

Reactions: Agree 2


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