# Minato vs Tobirama debunked



## Monarch (Nov 22, 2020)

I'm going to get a lot of shit for this but here I go:

A lot of people are convinced that Minato is stronger than Tobirama , but I beg to differ , it's quite the opposite :

This belief is based on a couple of major facts :

1.Minato supposedly being faster than him in both reactions and speed.

2.Minato being a better user of FTG.

3.Minato being a more ''complete'' version of him.

4.Him being able to turn the tide in a war , getting a flee on sight order , killing thousands shinobies.

5.Having more feats.

While those arguments seem to be correct at the first glance since Tobirama himself states Minato is a better user of his jutsu , they begin losing credibility if one digs the manga and thinks logically about this.Most people who put Minato over him will justify their beliefs by providing the first 3 arguments , so let's get into it :

Minato being ''faster'' than him.Physical speed and teleportation are different , by Tobirama admission , Minato'ss better at the body flicker technique (shunshin) which is teleportation.But there is no manga panel which states that tobirama is physically slower than Minato in speed and reactions and Tobirama doesn't say that either.Here is the proof: Tobirama says ''teleportation'' , not speed.Minato was able to arrive first because he is the best user of shunshin than all the other hokage.In a fight between the 2 speedsters , shunshin is irrelevant as FTG trumps it.On top of that , shunshin is used primarily for travelling , not fighting which proves this point even further.

Now , onto Minato's being a better FTG user . Minato is a better FTG user because he has more versatile use of it , for example , being able to carry more marked kunais and use them in battle.As he did against Bee and A4 , but that doesn't make him any faster , only more versatile with FTG.

Now , onto their portrayal of physical speed and reactions during the War Arc. Keep in mind that both of them are EDO which makes them slower in terms of reactions and physical speed.However , for most of the time , Minato was in KCM.Why is this a big deal? Because KCM allowed Naruto to outspeed A4 in physical speed , gave him an insane boost to his reactions and the same here applies for Minato since both of them have 50% of Kurama sealed in them.So outside of FTG , Minato got an insane boost which more than makes up for his EDO state , it's not unreasonable to assume that KCM Minato is now faster than A4 OUTSIDE OF FTG.Tobirama was able to mark Juubito on OWN with FTG as you can see here : But not only he was able to mark him , but also apply some explosive tags on him as well during that time frame , and Obito only realized it after he was marked : . This was crucial later on as he was able to save Naruto and Sasuke from getting blown up by Juubito.And KCM Minato was there unable to do anything , he was not fast enough to react to the orb which was NEXT TO HIM , like almost 0 distance but Tobirama used the mark he applied earlier and used FTG twice before the orb exploded : Notice how close it is to Minato. Here he saves them and is able to react before a KCM Minato could even move or react and he uses FTG before the orb even explodes.On the other hand , this is a KCM amped Minato going against Juubito : Not only he is not able to mark Juubito on his own like Tobirama DID but also loses his arm. Now , there are 2 counter arguments to this :

1.Tobirama lost half his body.

Yes , he lost half his body but he was able to mark him , Minato on the other hand could not , even while being amped by KCM.

2.That was an incomplete Juubito.

Fair enough , but EDO KCM Minato's feats against incomplete Juubito put him at the very worst equal in physical speed and reactions to EDO Tobirama , and at the very best , below him as well. For one , KCM Minato was not able to react to incomplete's Juubito kick even with FTG : and his best feat was saving Naruto and Sasuke at the last second from getting their skulls caved in by Juubito, I would also like to mention he used Chakra arms here , he didn't run or charge at them to FTG them.This strongly implies that chakra arms move faster than he can run , which means they are significantly faster than A4 as well :.He saved them in the last possible second while Tobirama was able to mark him and place paper bombs on him at the same time.KCM Minato could not mark him , was kicked by him and against the complete version he couldn't do anything.So without Tobirama here who is ''slower'' than base minato as many people say :

1.Naruto and Sasuke would have been dead , KCM Minato blown up as well.

2.There would have been no way of damaging Juubito since Tobirama figured out he was vulnerable to SM and already had the mark on which he applied on Juubito himself.

So to recap : EDO Tobirama was fast enough to react to complete Juubito which is faster than incomplete Juubito and FTG him with the mark he left and his exploding orb. KCM amped EDO Minato could not react to incomplete Juubito's kick EVEN WITH FTG.Tobirama marked incomplete Juubito and placed explosive tags on him.KCM Minato was stomped by complete Juubito.

So we can already conclude that EDO Tobirama has much better reactions and physical speed than KCM amped EDO Minato.So we can conclude that there is no way base minato or even SM Alive Minato has better reactions and physical speed than Alive Tobirama since:

1.KCM is faster than SM

2.Alive Tobirama is even FASTER

Now , some people will say that he was able to keep up in base with 8G Gai , but that is not true : So , let me break it down to you like this: Lee is able to react to them , Lee was far on the ground and threw the Kunai , Gai was in the air and closer to Madara as you can see on the panel , yet the Kunai arrives there before Gai and the TSB touch each other.By what they are implying , Lee is faster than 8G Gai and has better reactions than him.If Lee could react here who wasn't even in 7G could , it's pretty obvious base minato can too.This is what happened when base Minato tried to attack Madara .He couldn't react to Madara and got his arm cut off , he couldn't react a second time and got kicked back.Therefore base Minato cannot react to 8G Gai who is faster than Juudara.
This is 7G Gai almost touching Madara btw , and since Madara is dodging him and not attacking implies that 7G Gai can react to him , meaning 7G Gai has better reflexes (and speed) than Base Minato , and possibly even KCM Minato given that Juudara>>>>Juubito.KCM Minato could not react to a complete Juubito that cut off his arm , so it makes sense that he could not react to Juudara even if he was in KCM . And if TSB are faster than Juudara himself , well , this proves my point even further.

Also , there were many instances where Juudara was getting raped pretty hard by 8G Gai and could not react to him in time :

He was literally trying to coat himself in a sphere because he could not keep up with him , and he got hit by Gai before he could react as he can see in the last panel.So no , Juudara could not react to Gai properly. So let's recap 8G Gai speed and reflexes >Juudara speed and reflexes>Juubito speed and reflexes>7G Gai speed and reflexes ( even though he almost tagged Juudara and Madara was only dodging not hitting , implying he could react but I'm being modest here)>KCM Minato speed and reflexes > Base Minato speed and reflexes.

I'm not saying 7G Gai is JJ obito or madara tier , actually far from it .But he really is fast , and like I said earlier , being faster does not necessarily make you stronger. As both Minato and Tobirama lose against Madara or Hashirama despite being faster.

I don't mean to shit on Minato , he is still one of my favorite characters . But it's really disgusting how much the 2nd Hokage gets underrated and people actually believe he is fodder because Swagkage thinks he loses against Kisame which is laughable.Or because he does not have too many feats and screentime. Peace

TL : DR : Tobirama is faster than Minato 

Minato needs KCM just to compete

Since this is a battle of speed and both have FTG , the one who gets marked first loses.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 10 | Funny 1 | Disagree 13 | Coolest Guy! 2


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## Monarch (Nov 22, 2020)

@King789 @Halcyonite @Phenomenon @Orochimaru op @Orochimaruwantsyourbody @WorldsStrongest @Shazam


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## Grinningfox (Nov 22, 2020)

@New Folder

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 2


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## Draco Bolton (Nov 22, 2020)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> I'm going to get a lot of shit for this but here I go:
> 
> A lot of people are convinced that Minato is stronger than Tobirama , but I beg to differ , it's quite the opposite :
> 
> ...


@New Folder  DONT LOOK!!!

LOOK AWAY

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Grinningfox (Nov 22, 2020)

Draco Bolton said:


> @New Folder  DONT LOOK!!!
> 
> LOOK AWAY


Nah he needs to see this


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## Grinningfox (Nov 22, 2020)



Reactions: Funny 1


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## Hina uzumaki (Nov 22, 2020)

@t0xeus @dergeist @J★J♥ What do you guys think? Surely its a lie amiryte?


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## t0xeus (Nov 22, 2020)

Hina uzumaki said:


> @t0xeus @dergeist @J★J♥ What do you guys think? Surely its a lie amiryte?


Too long for me to read through completely

But his tldr conclusion:


ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> TL : DR : Tobirama is faster than Minato
> 
> Minato needs KCM just to compete
> 
> Since this is a battle of speed and both have FTG , the one who gets marked first loses.


is correct

Though KCM Minato lags behind ET Tobirama by quite a lot, so I wouldn't say he can compete with Living Tobirama in reflexes

Reactions: Agree 2 | Dislike 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 22, 2020)

@ObitoOfTheOrangeMask 

Minato was stated and shown to have a better Body Flicker and FTG mastery ( teleport more people at a time, more pre-marked kunai, FTG Barrier ), pound for pound he has better speed and understanding of the FTG. 

He also does have better reflexes than Tobirama.

But that doesn't mean much as Tobirama  has better EXP (Warring States plus being exposed to Founder level opponents) and & intellect and Suiton Mastery.

Minato only became a master of FTG while Tobirama did not because Minato specialized in the jutsu, while Tobirama was an inventor of many. Minato had FTG mastered before he had completed the rasengan.


NBD'ers tend to ignore mental stats when rating characters, so  in their minds it comes down to whether or not the faster character can beat the slower one, which is not the correct way of looking at things.


And you're also correct about Shunshin. Shunshin is a misunderstood jutsu in this manga, it is not representative of a character's average speed.

And you're also correct Body Flicker is irrelevant in any case since both of their FTG move at the same speed, and neither character is blitzing the other with mere Shunshin.

And a disadvantage in reflexes can also be bypassed by reading an opponent's movement and acting ahead of time, as Base Killer Bee did to Minato.


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## Trojan (Nov 22, 2020)

Draco Bolton said:


> @New Folder  DONT LOOK!!!
> 
> LOOK AWAY


I just read the first 2 sentences or so, gave him disagreed, and moved on.

not planning to waste my time with Tobirama's wankers.  
thank you for the heads up tho. 



Grinningfox said:


> @New Folder

Reactions: Agree 4 | Funny 1 | Friendly 1 | Disagree 6 | Dislike 1


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## Bonly (Nov 22, 2020)

Damn he put in all that effort just for Minato to still be stronger, wild

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 6 | Funny 2 | Kage 1 | Disagree 1


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## Dannyson97 (Nov 22, 2020)

Bonly said:


> Damn he put in all that effort just for Minato to still be stronger, wild



Dunno , this is what usually happens when people who actually think Jiraya > Itachi and Kisame decide.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 22, 2020)

Dannyson97 said:


> Dunno , this is what usually happens when people who actually think Jiraya > Itachi and Kisame decide.


Or the people that have Darui as stronger  than post-retcon Tobirama, and only scale Tobirama based on pre-retcon feats.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## dergeist (Nov 22, 2020)

Hina uzumaki said:


> @t0xeus @dergeist @J★J♥ What do you guys think? Surely its a lie amiryte?





t0xeus said:


> Too long for me to read through completely
> 
> But his tldr conclusion:
> 
> ...



I'm with t0x on this one.


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## Monarch (Nov 22, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Or the people that Darui as stronger  than post-retcon Tobirama, and only scale Tobirama based on pre-retcon feats.



Or the people who believe Tsunade > Hashirama bcuz she heals herself with byakugo and continues fighting if impaled by black rods from Alive Madara while Hashirama could not do anything.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Speedyamell (Nov 22, 2020)

Well I actually went through the post and you didn't actually address/debunk most of the reasons people claim minato wins/is superior..


ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Now , onto Minato's being a better FTG user . Minato is a better FTG user because he has more versatile use of it , for example , being able to carry more marked kunais and use them in battle.As he did against Bee and A4 , but that doesn't make him any faster , only more versatile with FTG.


This for instance, doesn't really make sense. The point is that being more versatile is an advantage to minato.. you basically reiterated that and said "but it doesn't make him faster" and acted like you've debunked that advantage somehow..


In regards to tobirama's statement, why are you certain he's talking about shunshin and not ftg? You know.. also teleportation?


And Your main argument for why tobirama is "better" (literally the opposite of what the narrative implies but ok) revolves around him having better reaction speed due to his feats against juubito, the first of which is him placing tags and an ftg mark on obito.. but not only was that a mindless juubito, but tobirama didn't place the tags physically.. he had initiated the technique which forms paper tags in the body, and those got attached when obito brushed through him.
The feat of him placing an ftg mark is legit, but there are huge implications for him having to basically die to mark a mindless obito..
Minato didn't get the chance for that, he was facing an obito that was actually in control and one who obviously wouldn't let himself fall for the same trick.

The second feat is him teleporting the tsb orb before minato and then teleporting juubito. You kept comparing this to minato actually 1v1ing juubito like it's the same thing but it's not.. tobirama could do that because he had already marked juubito and could teleport directly to he and his orb. And he did that from off panel when juubito wasn't focused on him. That can in no way be compared to a situation where minato was in a direct confrontation with obito.. like at all

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Disagree 4


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## ChojuroIsMeiSImp (Nov 22, 2020)

Their feats in the war arc are inconsistent really but I'm still giving it to Tobirama for the amount of effort u put in.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1 | Neutral 1 | Disagree 1


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## Dannyson97 (Nov 22, 2020)

ChojuroIsMeiSImp said:


> Their feats in the war arc are inconsistent really but I'm still giving it to Tobirama for the amount of effort u put in.


Ok but how are they inconsistent


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## ChojuroIsMeiSImp (Nov 22, 2020)

Dannyson97 said:


> Ok but how are they inconsistent


They are inconsistent because like OP mentioned KCM Minato has trouble with Juubito but at the same time he is able to synchronize with Might Gai who was blitzing Juudara every second . And claiming that Might Gai would have moved slower to avoid hitting Minato is headcanon anyway

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ChojuroIsMeiSImp (Nov 22, 2020)

But until someone comes and proves him wrong with actual arguments instead of just giving him a negative reaction I'm not changing my stance on this post


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## Zembie (Nov 22, 2020)

Tobirama teleported to the TSB thanks to the mark he had on Obito.
Minato reacted to 8G Gai, he's obviously faster in reactions as well.
It also doesn't matter whether Minato had KCM vs controlled Juubito, since he couldn't do the same shtick and sacrifice himself (and it's good that he didn't, because Obito negged the Edo Tensei healing).

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Bob74h (Nov 22, 2020)

Tobirama admitted inferiority to minato, get over it.
Manga > Your Headcanon

Juubito stomped tobirama so they dont scale, get over it.
Manga > Your Headcanon

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## ChojuroIsMeiSImp (Nov 22, 2020)

Zembie said:


> Tobirama teleported to the TSB thanks to the mark he had on Obito.


That is already mentioned on the post.


Zembie said:


> Minato reacted to 8G Gai, he's obviously faster in reactions as well.


Ok but why he got blitzed by Juudara then?This is where it starts to get inconsistent.


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 22, 2020)

Bob74h said:


> Tobirama admitted inferiority to minato in speed and FTG mastery, never said he was weaker 1v1,  get over it.


Fixed



Bob74h said:


> Manga > Your Headcanon


precisely



Bob74h said:


> Juubito stomped tobirama so they dont scale, get over it.


Manga> your feelings. Tobirama's reaction speed scales to Juubito's body flicker as he physically placed a FTG marking on him. Get over it.



Bob74h said:


> Manga > Your Headcanon


Agreed

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bob74h (Nov 22, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Manga> your feelings. Tobirama's reaction speed scales to Juubito's body flicker as he physically placed a FTG marking on him. Get over it.


Juubito ripped him in half and did not face any damage as a result of those tandem bombs.
Manga > your headcanon, get over it.

Tobirama does not scale to any war arc characters because none of his feats suggest such a thing.
Torune scales to obito by this logic because he consciously injected poison beetles into obito's artificial arm, mental reactions are not feats unless you think gamers scale to mike tyson because they mentally perceive getting beat up.




ThirdRidoku said:


> precisely


Yeah so tobirama scales below minato as per his statement

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 22, 2020)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> ow does it make him faster given that is teleportation? Minato is better at FTG than Tobirama , does that make him stronger? Naruto could use kage bunshin no jutsu better than almost any character who uses the technique , does that make him stronger if we take into account all of his versions.


It's like saying IA Naruto> Minato because he has a better rasengan lol

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Bob74h (Nov 22, 2020)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Explain to me why KCM Minato was not able to react to incomplete Juubito's kick?


Tobirama was not able to react ether saying as he got ripped in half and completely bodied but keep ignoring the manga and in series evidence so you can wank.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Monarch (Nov 22, 2020)

Bob74h said:


> Juubito ripped him in half and did not face any damage as a result of those tandem bombs.
> Manga > your headcanon, get over it.


???? I didn't say he sustained any damage


Bob74h said:


> Tobirama does not scale to any war arc characters because none of his feats suggest such a thing.
> Torune scales to obito by this logic because he consciously injected poison beetles into obito's artificial arm, mental reactions are not feats unless you think gamers scale to mike tyson because they mentally perceive getting beat up.


 


Bob74h said:


> Yeah so tobirama scales below minato as per his statement


Is Jiraya with full intel going to scale above Pain as per Pain's statement ?

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 22, 2020)

Bob74h said:


> Juubito ripped him in half and did not face any damage as a result of those tandem bombs.
> Manga > your headcanon, get over it.
> 
> Tobirama does not scale to any war arc characters because none of his feats suggest such a thing.
> Torune scales to obito by this logic because he consciously injected poison beetles into obito's artificial arm, mental reactions are not feats unless you think gamers scale to mike tyson because they mentally perceive getting beat up


Placing a FTG marking isn't a mental reaction. Manga and Occam Razor> your feelings

And no Torune's bugs only need physical contact to transfer as per manga fight.

He mentally reacted to form the paper bombs, then PHYSICALLY reacted to place FTG marking on Juubito.


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## Dannyson97 (Nov 22, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Placing a FTG marking isn't a mental reaction. Manga and Occam Razor> your feelings
> 
> And no Torune's bugs only need physical contact to transfer as per manga fight.
> 
> He mentally reacted to form the paper bombs, then PHYSICALLY reacted to place FTG marking on Juubito.



Don't bother with him , he actually thinks Tsunade can last more against Alive Madara then Edo Hashirama who wasn't able to move when he got those rods impaled on his back.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Informative 1


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## Dannyson97 (Nov 22, 2020)

ChojuroIsMeiSImp said:


> They are inconsistent because like OP mentioned KCM Minato has trouble with Juubito but at the same time he is able to synchronize with Might Gai who was blitzing Juudara every second . And claiming that Might Gai would have moved slower to avoid hitting Minato is headcanon anyway


Ok , you have a point. But if one character has better feats than another in a setting even do they contradict each other , I choose the former.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Bob74h (Nov 22, 2020)

You tobirama stans take him getting ripped in literal half as a feat for the second hokage when the intention of the scene was to showcase juubito's power and this is further proven when he straight up tanks tobirama's tandem bombs.

But keep ignoring the manga so you can wank, You canon idiots are amazing like you will only use the manga but then will pretend certain scenes do not exist when convenient to you like mifune boding hanzo and jiraya soloing itachi and kisame as examples.

Im not biased unlike people here so when i see a scene of lee boding sasuke or sasuke boding team 7, I accept the scene for what it is and use it accordingly however humans here like to ignore certain scenes or information because it puts their favorite character lower then they would like which is part of the reason why versus debates are stupid, It's just a popularity contest most of the time like the most infamous example today would be tobirama > minato in spite of the manga saying otherwise.

Reactions: Lewd 1 | Dislike 2


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 22, 2020)




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## ChojuroIsMeiSImp (Nov 22, 2020)

Speedyamell said:


> Well I actually went through the post and you didn't actually address/debunk most of the reasons people claim minato wins/is superior..


Wrong and you didn't really address all of his statements . You cherry picked to sound convincing . Also your arguments are bad.


Speedyamell said:


> This for instance, doesn't really make sense. The point is that being more versatile is an advantage to minato.. you basically reiterated that and said "but it doesn't make him faster" and acted like you've debunked that advantage somehow..


Is instantaneous speed faster than instantaneous speed ? They are instant ... How can he ''teleport'' faster if he places more marked kunais?


Speedyamell said:


> In regards to tobirama's statement, why are you certain he's talking about shunshin and not ftg? You know.. also teleportation?


Read the manga in both japanese and english my dude.


Speedyamell said:


> Your main argument for why tobirama is "better" (literally the opposite of what the narrative implies but ok) revolves around him having better reaction speed due to his feats against juubito, the first of which is him placing tags and an ftg mark on obito.. but not only was that a mindless juubito, but tobirama didn't place the tags physically.. he had initiated the technique which forms paper tags in the body, and those got attached when obito brushed through him.
> The feat of him placing an ftg mark is legit, but there are huge implications for him having to basically die to mark a mindless obito..
> Minato didn't get the chance for that, he was facing an obito that was actually in control and one who obviously wouldn't let himself fall for the same trick.


Read the post again


Speedyamell said:


> The second feat is him teleporting the tsb orb before minato and then teleporting juubito. You kept comparing this to minato actually 1v1ing juubito like it's the same thing but it's not.. tobirama could do that because he had already marked juubito and could teleport directly to he and his orb. And he did that from off panel when juubito wasn't focused on him. That can in no way be compared to a situation where minato was in a direct confrontation with obito.. like at all


Read the post again

Reactions: Agree 1 | Friendly 1 | Dislike 2


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## Bob74h (Nov 22, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> And no Torune's bugs only need physical contact to transfer as per manga fight.


He has control of the insects and this was shown when he took the poison beetles off of fuu's body.
He also carried fu's body around when fu was controlling ao.


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 22, 2020)

Bob74h said:


> You tobirama stans take him getting ripped in literal half as a feat for the second hokage when the intention of the scene was to showcase juubito's power and this is further proven when he straight up tanks tobirama's tandem bombs.
> 
> But keep ignoring the manga so you can wank, You canon idiots are amazing like you will only use the manga but then will pretend certain scenes do not exist when convenient to you like mifune boding hanzo and jiraya soloing itachi and kisame as examples.
> 
> Im not biased unlike people here so when i see a scene of lee boding sasuke or sasuke boding team 7, I accept the scene for what it is and use it accordingly however humans here like to ignore certain scenes or information because it puts their favorite character lower then they would like which is part of the reason why versus debates are stupid, It's just a popularity contest most of the time like the most infamous example today would be tobirama > minato in spite of the manga saying otherwise.


Manga> your feelings.

Tobirama physically reacted to Juubito and you deny it while calling me biased and touting yourself as un  biased

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Bob74h (Nov 22, 2020)

Dannyson97 said:


> Tsunade can last more against Alive Madara then Edo Hashirama who wasn't able to move when he got those rods impaled on his back.


I said tsunade can heal over injuries due to hundred healings while hashirama cannot, thats because edo hashirama is made of inorganic material therefore his healing jutsu would not work.  
 I never claimed tsunade > hashirama so what are you talking about

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Bob74h (Nov 22, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Tobirama physically reacted to Juubito and you deny it while calling me biased and touting yourself as un biased


Juubito bodied him and tobirama's tandem bombs did no damage, It's clear they dont scale.
He got bodied and nothing you say will change that fact so you argue semantics all day and it wont matter.

As much as you want tobirama to one shot juubito, It does not happen and you can ignore evidence all you like but juubito bodies tobirama in spite of your feelings on the matter

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Kassion97 (Nov 22, 2020)

This is like a superman vs goku thread

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Kassion97 (Nov 22, 2020)

I can feel the salt emanating and I enjoy it

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 22, 2020)

All I know is 
TSB > juubi Madara movement as that’s what he opted to to interrupt double kamui 
At that point we already saw base Minato ans kakashi could react to it 

a whole discussion then went into their plan to support Gai based on previous evidence 

gaara admitted his sand was too slow and he couldn’t defend against it . Minato said take my Kunai I’ll protect you 

we then see him step in to remove the TSB against gai 

calling that feat an interception feat despite the large discussion that went into it before hand is quite dishonest and stupid . No other interception feat had a discussion tied to it 

as such that single reaction feat alone would always put Minato reaction > tobirama 

all this thread shows is kishi has entirely no consistency . Further demonstrated when Minato forgot he could use SM against juubito when BM mode would have helped him gather it quicker . Yet the genius lad decides to remember it against juubi Madara

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Bob74h (Nov 22, 2020)

Kassion97 said:


> I can feel the salt emanating and I enjoy it


It's not salt, Im just no longer taking them seriously because at this point their just denying evidence.
Im not going to take ignorant humans seriously regardless of what side or whom they be.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Dislike 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 22, 2020)

Bob74h said:


> He has control of the insects and this was shown when he took the poison beetles off of fuu's body.
> He also carried fu's body around when fu was controlling ao.


Doesn't change the fact the bugs also still have minds of their own, and simply touching his target can be enough for them to be transmitted.

And even if Torune did react mid-kamui warp then that's a feat for him

He already showed he could mentally react to Obito's combat speed when he threw a kunai at him to protect Fuu from Obito's punch.



Bob74h said:


> Juubito bodied him and tobirama's tandem bombs did no damage, It's clear they dont scale.
> He got bodied and nothing you say will change that fact so you argue semantics all day and it wont matter.
> 
> As much as you want tobirama to one shot juubito, It does not happen and you can ignore evidence all you like but juubito bodies tobirama in spite of your feelings on the matter


Lel. Tobirama placed a FTG marking in response to Juubito's shunshin

In spite of your feelings, Tobirama's physical reaction speed scales to Juubito's movement speed, though obviously Tobirama is slower

I never said Tobirama can one shot Juubito lmao.

Just that his reactions scale to Juubito's movement speed.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Kassion97 (Nov 22, 2020)

Bob74h said:


> It's not salt, Im just no longer taking them seriously because at this point their just denying evidence.
> Im not going to take ignorant humans seriously regardless of what side or whom they be.


Then why do you even bother wasting your time to reply?


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## Bob74h (Nov 22, 2020)

Btw you didt debunk anything, You merely used headcanon and pretended like you made some point when your whole argument rests off of ignoring the fact tobirama got bodied.
You also posted a scan of tobirama stating the fourth hokage is better then me so you debunked yourself but continue living in ignorance because ignorance is bliss right?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Bob74h (Nov 22, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Doesn't change the fact the bugs also still have minds of their own, and simply touching his target can be enough for them to be transmitted.


Then why  didt they transmit when torune was carrying fu's body around?




ThirdRidoku said:


> And even if Torune did react mid-kamui warp then that's a feat for him


He would of had to of technically speaking but it means nothing as he could not physically react.




ThirdRidoku said:


> Lel. Tobirama placed a FTG marking in response to Juubito's shunshin


He already had a ftg marking before that point, This has been debunked like 50 times already.



ThirdRidoku said:


> In spite of your feelings, Tobirama's physical reaction speed scales to Juubito's movement speed, though obviously Tobirama is slower


If he scaled to juubito then why didt he dodge and place the ftg mark, I guess he just wanted to get hit.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Bob74h (Nov 22, 2020)

Kassion97 said:


> Then why do you even bother wasting your time to reply?


Because it's comical to watch humans who claim to be smarter then me act like fools and because they were addressing my arguments.
Like these people seriously think tobirama had enough speed to place an ftg mark on juubito without noticing but he's not fast enough to dodge attacks from him like it's so stupid that it's amusing

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Monarch (Nov 22, 2020)

I have no choice but to get over it , do I?


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 22, 2020)

Bob74h said:


> Then didt they transmit when torune was carrying fu's body around?


because he chose not to.



Bob74h said:


> e would of had to of technically speaking but it means nothing as he could not physically react.


Okay? so what, Tobirama could physically react



Bob74h said:


> He already had a ftg marking before that point, This has been debunked like 50 times already.


Nonsense lmao. This is how desperate you're getting. When could Tobirama have placed a FTG marking on Juubito other then just before Juubito bisected him. He needs physical contact to place it.



Bob74h said:


> If he scaled to juubito then why didt he dodge and place the ftg mark, I guess he just wanted to get hit.


because he isn't fast enough to dodge.

Man, you call yourself a king but you don't know the difference between physical reactions and leg movement speed?

Juubito crossed more distance than Tobirama did in the scene and all Tobirama could do is mentally react and form paper bombs in his body and at the same time lift his right arm  and place a marking on Juubito.

Tobirama's mental reactions + reflex with lifting an arm and tagging juubito with a marker means he scales to Juubito's shunshin from a standard distance in just  PHYSICAL REACTION lmao


That doesn't mean Tobirama's movement/running speed/side stepping speed is faster than Juubito or scales. He is blatantly much slower in that regard as Juubito crossed 10 meters in the time that Tobirama couldn't sidestep, he could only mental react with chakra moulding to cause paper bomb formation inside his body, then lifted his arm and reached a few inches and maintain contact long enough to place FTG marker before getting bisected.

It's not a difficult concept, and shouldn't be for someone with a supreme and royal intellect as yours.

But the issue is you letting feelings getting in your way since you literally think Tobirama is a fodder and has no feats or portrayal lol.

Check your bias plz.


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## Bob74h (Nov 22, 2020)

I admit when im wrong like most recently, I was wrong about neji and hiashi being amped by kyubi chakra when deflecting the juubi's attacks however these tobirama stans love to double down on their ignorance and stupidity instead of admitting when they were wrong like any humble or rational man would.

Like these stans love to say tobirama placed an ftg mark and tagged juubito but if he's that fast as you claim then why didt he dodge that attack and if he scales to juubito then why did those tendem bombs do no damage.
It's obviously that intent of the scene was to showcase juubito's power however tobirama would rather ignore narrative intentions because of their own bias

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Monarch (Nov 22, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> because he chose not to.
> 
> 
> Okay? so what, Tobirama could physically react
> ...


You are wasting your time.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Bob74h (Nov 22, 2020)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> I have no choice but to get over it , do I?


That or you live in ignorance, Your choice really.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Informative 1 | Dislike 1


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## Dannyson97 (Nov 22, 2020)

Bob74h said:


> That or you live in ignorance, Your choice really.


A bit weird coming from someone who thinks Tsunade can last more than hashi


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## Dannyson97 (Nov 22, 2020)

Zembie said:


> Tobirama teleported to the TSB thanks to the mark he had on Obito.


Can you even read properly?It's already stated in the post , why bother mention it.


Zembie said:


> Minato reacted to 8G Gai, he's obviously faster in reactions as well.


Why couldn't he react to Juudara then ? Juudara was slower than 8g Gai.


Zembie said:


> It also doesn't matter whether Minato had KCM vs controlled Juubito, since he couldn't do the same shtick and sacrifice himself (and it's good that he didn't, because Obito negged the Edo Tensei healing).


Incomplete juubito did not neg the healing , complete juubito could due to better use of orbs.


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 22, 2020)

Bob74h said:


> I admit when im wrong like most recently, I was wrong about neji and hiashi being amped by kyubi chakra when deflecting the juubi's attacks however these tobirama stans love to double down on their ignorance and stupidity instead of admitting when they were wrong like any humble or rational man would.
> 
> Like these stans love to say tobirama placed an ftg mark and tagged juubito but if he's that fast as you claim then why didt he dodge that attack and if he scales to juubito then why did those tendem bombs do no damage.
> It's obviously that intent of the scene was to showcase juubito's power however tobirama would rather ignore narrative intentions because of their own bias


You're irrationally straw-manning my argument cause your EGO/pride is too big to admit Tobirama's reaction speed scales to Juubito's movement speed, even though Juubito's movement speed is in fact much faster than Tobirama's.

You're arguing with feelings at this point Bobby.

No one is saying Tobirama scales to Juubito overall.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dannyson97 (Nov 22, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> You're irrationally straw-manning my argument cause your EGO/pride is too big to admit Tobirama's reaction speed scales to Juubito's movement speed, even though Juubito's movement speed is in fact much faster than Tobirama's.


He's been doing that on every post.


ThirdRidoku said:


> You're arguing with feelings at this point Bobby.


Well to him , Feeling >>>Thinking


ThirdRidoku said:


> No one is saying Tobirama scales to Juubito overall.


Well , to him speed=power.Either he doesn't know to read or needs to consult the dictionary.He also utilizes ABC logic which is wrong.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Bob74h (Nov 22, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> because he chose not to.


So it's a conscious effort on the user not an on contact transmission like you stated before, Thanks for conceding.




ThirdRidoku said:


> Okay? so what, Tobirama could physically react


He never physically damaged or keep up with juubito, He got bodied and ripped in half.
Thats what happened regardless of how you feel, get over it.




ThirdRidoku said:


> because he isn't fast enough to dodge.


So he does not scale to juubito then because he's not comparable so again, Thanks for conceding.




ThirdRidoku said:


> at the same time lift his right arm and place a marking on Juubito.


Show me the scan of that happening.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Tobirama could do is mentally react and form paper bombs in his body


Evidence suggesting he was forming paper bombs inside of him while he was engaging juubito



ThirdRidoku said:


> Man, you call yourself a king but you don't know the difference between physical reactions and leg movement speed?


If you cannot make any valid maneuverers against your opponent then physically reacting means literally nothing.




ThirdRidoku said:


> But the issue is you letting feelings getting in your way since you literally think Tobirama is a fodder and has no feats or portrayal lol.


He has feats, It's just that none of them put him that high like his only positive showcases are him somewhat keeping up with hiruzen and bodying madara's featless younger brother.

Ive stated as such before infact

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Bob74h (Nov 22, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> You're irrationally straw-manning my argument cause your EGO/pride is too big to admit Tobirama's reaction speed scales to Juubito's movement speed


Sure he mentally perceived that he was getting bodied but so did sasuke when he fought lee in part 1 but nobody claims sasuke in the chuinn exams scales to lee now do they so it's obvious that there's bias here because similar circumstances were not given the same treatment.



ThirdRidoku said:


> You're arguing with feelings at this point Bobby.



Your the one who's claiming tobirama scales to juubito in spite of what the manga shows so if anyone is arguing based off of feelings here, It's you.



Dannyson97 said:


> Well , to him speed=power.Either he doesn't know to read or needs to consult the dictionary.He also utilizes ABC logic which is wrong.


Speed does not scale to power nor have i ever said that.
Like as a example shisui has trouble with rando anbu but has massive speed thanks to his mastery of the body flicker technique.


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## Bob74h (Nov 22, 2020)

Dannyson97 said:


> A bit weird coming from someone who thinks Tsunade can last more than hashi


Never claimed that, I stated that she can heal over injuries that edo hashirama cannot thanks to the hundred healings jutsu.
Hashirama beat madara while tsunade nearly died so ofc hashirama stomps his daughter and ive even stated as much before

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 22, 2020)

Bob74h said:


> So it's a conscious effort on the user not an on contact transmission like you stated before, Thanks for conceding.


it's not one or the other lol. Naruto can consciously control Kurama's chakra arms but Kurama can also fight for him as well. It's both.



Bob74h said:


> He never physically damaged or keep up with juubito, He got bodied and ripped in half.
> Thats what happened regardless of how you feel, get over it.


He physically reacted before getting bodied and ripped and half. That's what happened regardless of how you feel. Get over it.

Juubito is one of the fastest characters in the verse, So Tobirama reacting at all means much slower characters would be dodged or reacted to with much more ease.




Bob74h said:


> So he does not scale to juubito then because he's not comparable so again, Thanks for conceding.


I never said he scales tp Juubito in speed. I said REACTIONS lmao.




Bob74h said:


> Show me the scan of that happening.


it's the only way the FTG mark can get on Juubito with all known facts. Occam's razor. I don't have a scan to show you so you're out of luck. But that was the only time Tobirama was in physical contact with juubito and could have placed it.




Bob74h said:


> Evidence suggesting he was forming paper bombs inside of him while he was engaging juubito


because Edo Tensei don't randomly have paper bombs inside their body.
Gojo requires you to create paper bombs using your own body as a medium.
meaning it requires mental reaction.




Bob74h said:


> If you cannot make any valid maneuverers against your opponent then physically reacting means literally nothing.


lmao. So you concede Tobirama physically reacted now? 






Bob74h said:


> Sure he mentally perceived that he was getting bodied but so did sasuke when he fought lee in part 1 but nobody claims sasuke in the chuinn exams scales to lee now do they so it's obvious that there's bias here because similar circumstances were not given the same treatment.


He  mentally AND physically responded to Juubito unlike Sasuke did to Lee.

Tobirama performed better. And unlike Lee, Juubito is one of the fastest characters in the verse.



Bob74h said:


> Your the one who's claiming tobirama scales to juubito in spite of what the manga shows so if anyone is arguing based off of feelings here, It's you.



I said his PHYSICAL REACTION speed  scales to Juubito's movement speed

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Speedyamell (Nov 22, 2020)

ChojuroIsMeiSImp said:


> Wrong and you didn't really address all of his statements . You cherry picked to sound convincing . Also your arguments are bad.
> 
> Is instantaneous speed faster than instantaneous speed ? They are instant ... How can he ''teleport'' faster if he places more marked kunais?
> 
> ...


You're just as obtuse as the person you're d*ckriding

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Lewd 1 | Dislike 1


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## Lyren (Nov 22, 2020)

No Minato is way stronger than Tobirama according to feats and portrayal period  
One stalemated A4 and B at the same time, is faster and better with ftg, the other lost to base kinkaku twice

Reactions: Winner 3 | Optimistic 1 | Lewd 1


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## Bob74h (Nov 22, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> I don't have a scan to show you so you're out of luck.


So you have no proof that this feat, Your hyping even happened.




ThirdRidoku said:


> lmao. So you concede Tobirama physically reacted now?


He physically perceived him getting ripped in half however he still does not have the physical speed to dodge or keep up with him so they do not scale as stated before.




ThirdRidoku said:


> it's not one or the other lol. Naruto can consciously control Kurama's chakra arms but Kurama can also fight for him as well. It's both.


It's never shown that the beetles act on their own infact their controlled by the user in every circumstance shown like right here as another example

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Bob74h (Nov 22, 2020)

Lyren said:


> No Minato is way stronger than Tobirama according to feats and portrayal period


Yes but tobirama stans prioritize their good ol headcanon hence why they scale tobirama to juubito in spite of the manga showcasing that juubito bodies

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Speedyamell (Nov 22, 2020)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Wrong.
> 
> How does it make him faster given that is teleportation? Minato is better at FTG than Tobirama , does that make him stronger? Naruto could use kage bunshin no jutsu better than almost any character who uses the technique , does that make him stronger if we take into account all of his versions.
> 
> ...


All you did was repeat the same dumbass shit..
Did I say having more markers makes minato faster in my response? I mentioned that it's simply an advantage he has over tobirama and because it's not something you can argue against you went ahead to straw manning an issue that was never brought up

Oh. So you posted a translation that said teleportation, then looked for one that said shunshin instead? Your clown self isn't aware shunshin and teleportation have been used interchangeably to also describe ftg?


I don't know.. maybe it's because once again minato wasn't focused on obito? He was literally focused on saving naruto prior and then quickly got caught offguard by the kick.
It's not even the argument that tobirama could have faster reactions that's the problem.. it's the shitty comparisons you make to arrive at that conclusion that are whack

Reactions: Disagree 3 | Dislike 2


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 22, 2020)

Lyren said:


> No Minato is way stronger than Tobirama according to feats and portrayal period
> One stalemated A4 and B at the same time, is faster and better with ftg, the other lost to base kinkaku twice


Tobirama didn't have FTG when he fought Kinkaku originally.

Like I said before, DB2 says FTG is Minato's original creation, something that was not explicitly retconned until Chapter 625, thus there is no proof Tobirama had FTG in his arsenal when Kishi revealed his losses to to Gold and Silver Bros to us.

This is supported by his inability to teleport his team back to Konoha, despite the fact he later showed markings on the Hokage monument.

Tobirama was retconned just like his older brother, the moment he was revived in the War Arc.

FTG-less Tobirama losing to Kin/Gin doesn't mean anything






Bob74h said:


> So you have no proof that this feat, Your hyping even happened.


Occam's Razor is the proof. FTG markings don't magically appear on people. he must have reacted and placed it  before getting bisected period.



Bob74h said:


> He physically perceived him getting ripped in half however he still does not have the physical speed to dodge or keep up with him so they do not scale as stated before.


REACTION SPEED=/= movement speed



Bob74h said:


> It's never shown that the beetles act on their own infact their controlled by the user in every circumstance shown like right here as another example


ok fine w/e

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Zembie (Nov 22, 2020)

Dannyson97 said:


> Can you even read properly?It's already stated in the post , why bother mention it.


Didn't really bother reading the post, calm down.


Dannyson97 said:


> Why couldn't he react to Juudara then ? Juudara was slower than 8g Gai.


Ask Kishimoto, later feats > earlier feats.


Dannyson97 said:


> Incomplete juubito did not neg the healing , complete juubito could due to better use of orbs.


That's exactly what I said?


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## Kassion97 (Nov 22, 2020)

So I guess this is how those forums work , no civil discussions , insults and is overall full of toxicity.


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## Kassion97 (Nov 22, 2020)

Why can't we just act like normal people even if we feel the other person is wrong? This has been going on for years , almost every debating forum is full of toxic people who get into fights because of fictional characters.


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 22, 2020)

Kassion97 said:


> So I guess this is how those forums work , no civil discussions , insults and is overall full of toxicity.


it could be easily avoided if people stopped trolling and rating Tobirama based on pre-retcon feats
 

Like so far the only arguments presented are
Minato >=A+B> Darui> Base Kin+Gin> Tobirama

So Minato is three tiers above a Tobirama who didn't have FTG and wasn't yet retconned into being the fastest of his time.

Big deal lol.

It's blatantly stated and shown and that tobirama did not have FTG in his original backstory.


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 22, 2020)

all while ignoring and even denying Tobirama's reaction feat against Juubito's shunshin lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kassion97 (Nov 22, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> it could be easily avoided if people stopped trolling and rating Tobirama based on pre-retcon feats
> 
> 
> Like so far the only arguments presented are
> ...


Yes , but from what I noticed , fights start even if there is no trolling involved


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## Kassion97 (Nov 22, 2020)

How can those forums even be called legit when there are people who believe that MS Obito and Nagato are founder level?How can those forums even be considered a good debating platform when on almost every thread things start to get heated?It's just laughable,


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## Kassion97 (Nov 22, 2020)

Like I join the forums today I see this thread being the most discussed and the very first thing I see those people spewing venom at each other.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Friendly 1


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## Serene Grace (Nov 22, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> it could be easily avoided if people stopped trolling and rating Tobirama based on pre-retcon feats
> 
> 
> Like so far the only arguments presented are
> ...


It honestly could. I don’t even have a problem with minato being slightly better. But having him one or two tiers above tobirama is hot bullshit

Reactions: Winner 2 | Disagree 1


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## Final Jutsu (Nov 22, 2020)

Tobirama retcon?

Reactions: Like 2 | Lewd 1 | Dislike 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 22, 2020)

Serene Grace said:


> It honestly could. I don’t even have a problem with minato being slightly better. *But having him one or two tiers above tobirama is hot bullshit*


It's exactly the kind of uninformed posts like below that lead to the bolded conclusion




Final Jutsu said:


> Tobirama retcon?


Prove Tobirama had FTG when his original death scene and described multiple losses to Kin/Gin were written in the War Arc

Ergo, prove he had FTG in the author's mind before Chapter 625,  when the author explicitly retconned his unstated Space Time Ninjutsu ( as stated by Minato during Kyuubi attack flashback)  into being Flying Thunder God when he kills izuna, officially confirming he was now the creator of the technique and had it in his time, and minato simply learned it later on and improved on it.

Minato was explicitly stated to have created FTG, which means it couldn't have existed in Tobirama's time


Good luck, when post-retcon Tobirama had FTG markings on the Hokage Monuments as shown in Chapter 629, yet no one on his team or himself suggested it in a situation where they needed to retreat as a group.

And if he had it in the first place, then Base Kin/Gin would have been defeated in the first place.


Until then, Kishimoto's decision to reinforce his death to the bros in DBIV coud just be interpreted as an inconsistency/outlier, as he already drew the death and emphasized his loss too many times to give a believable explanation as to why he lost or worse yet couldn't escape with FTG even after his entire backstory was retconned so that he had it available before his fights with Kin/Gin

While also keeping in mind, Tobirama like his bro was retconned into being brought back weaker in P1, showing Kishi was already in the process of retconning Tobirama as soon as he retconned Hashirama into being a mythical threat that could deal with Madara's PS.

If you think Darui is stronger than Tobirama or Base Kin/Gin, and don't see how it's a combination of both Tobirama being retconned and Kishi simply not plugging the holes in his retroactive powerscaling of Tobirama, then I can't help you further on this topic.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Phenomenon (Nov 22, 2020)

Bob74h said:


> You tobirama stans take him getting ripped in literal half as a feat for the second hokage when the intention of the scene was to showcase juubito's power and this is further proven when he straight up tanks tobirama's tandem bombs.
> 
> But keep ignoring the manga so you can wank, You canon idiots are amazing like you will only use the manga but then will pretend certain scenes do not exist when convenient to you like mifune boding hanzo and jiraya soloing itachi and kisame as examples.
> 
> Im not biased unlike people here so when i see a scene of lee boding sasuke or sasuke boding team 7, I accept the scene for what it is and use it accordingly however humans here like to ignore certain scenes or information because it puts their favorite character lower then they would like which is part of the reason why versus debates are stupid, It's just a popularity contest most of the time like the most infamous example today would be tobirama > minato in spite of the manga saying otherwise.


Do you want me to get the pram out for ya.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 23, 2020)

Phenomenon said:


> Do you want me to get the pram out for ya.


the majority opinion isn't even in favour of Tobirama is the most ironic thing about Bob's post

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Gin Ichimaru (Nov 23, 2020)

Minato vs Tobirama is pretty debatable and I go back and forth on it

But Tobirama is overall stronger. Minato being a touch faster than Tobirama doesn't matter when you match them up vs anyone else in the verse. Meanwhile Tobirama has Edo Tensei which puts him over the top for me

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Phenomenon (Nov 23, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> the majority opinion isn't even in favour of Tobirama is the most ironic thing about Bob's post


Exactly


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## Bob74h (Nov 23, 2020)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> Minato vs Tobirama is pretty debatable and I go back and forth on it


No it's the second hokage blatantly stated him >minato
the thread creator debunked himself by showcasing this scan but headcanon is more important then facts as per the usual so who cares

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 23, 2020)

Bob74h said:


> No it's the second hokage blatantly stated him >minato
> the thread creator debunked himself by showcasing this scan but headcanon is more important then facts as per the usual so who cares


so speed = power now huh


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## Speedyamell (Nov 23, 2020)

ChojuroIsMeiSImp said:


> Don't confuse me with your parents who gave birth to a retard like you.





ChojuroIsMeiSImp said:


> This answer alone proves how much of a biased mentally challenged





ChojuroIsMeiSImp said:


> can't come up with counter arguments moron





ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> As dumb as it is to vegetable like you





ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> You are mentally challenged at this point





ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> go back to the circus or the mental ward you crawled out of





ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> you moron.


@FlamingRain 
@MShadows 
@LostSelf 
Are you guys on leave or..?

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 1


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## Monarch (Nov 23, 2020)

Speedyamell said:


> You're just as obtuse as the person you're d*ckriding

Reactions: Agree 3 | Funny 1


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## MShadows (Nov 23, 2020)

How about you guys chill and have a civilized debate? Take a break if needed to cool off. 

 

Consider this a warning!

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Friendly 1


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## Kassion97 (Nov 23, 2020)

MShadows said:


> How about you guys chill and have a civilized debate? Take a break if needed to cool off.
> 
> 
> 
> Consider this a warning!


That's exactly what I've been saying


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## Grinningfox (Nov 23, 2020)

This thread has been hilarious

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Tsukuyomi (Nov 23, 2020)

Grinningfox said:


> This thread has been hilarious


The best

Reactions: Friendly 1 | Dislike 1


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## Zembie (Nov 23, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> it could be easily avoided if people stopped trolling and rating Tobirama based on pre-retcon feats
> 
> 
> Like so far the only arguments presented are
> ...


Fucking DB even calls Hiraishin Minato's "original" technique, it's obviously retconned.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Trojan (Nov 23, 2020)

Zembie said:


> Fucking DB even calls Hiraishin Minato's "original" technique, it's obviously retconned.


it's not about whether a retcon/asspull happened or not for Tobirama. It's WHEN it happened.

Some of Tobirama's wanker think his FTG asspull didn't happen until Hashirama's flashback showing Tobirama Vs Izuna.

Thus, dismissing his defeats repeatedly Vs Kin&Gin.

where other, far more intelligent people, shows that Minato did mention that Tobirama does have S/T jutsu (FTG) since Minato Vs Obito's fight. Which was before Kin&Gin came back during the War Arc, when Kishi repeatedly stated that they stomped Tobirama.

That's the main source of denial that Tobirama's wankers are diagnosed with...

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1 | Disagree 3 | Dislike 2


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## Dannyson97 (Nov 23, 2020)

New Folder said:


> it's not about whether a retcon/asspull happened or not for Tobirama. It's WHEN it happened.
> 
> Some of Tobirama's wanker think his FTG asspull didn't happen until Hashirama's flashback showing Tobirama Vs Izuna.
> 
> ...



You are wasting your time here my man. You better go make Jiraya vs Itachi and Kisame threads on all vs debating platforms to see how many people will call you ''intelligent'' .

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1 | Kage 1


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## Lamuledetraspatas (Nov 23, 2020)

Dannyson97 said:


> You are wasting your time here my man. You better go make Jiraya vs Itachi and Kisame threads on all vs debating platforms to see how many people will call you ''intelligent'' .



Dammmmmmm

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Trojan (Nov 23, 2020)

Dannyson97 said:


> You are wasting your time here my man. You better go make Jiraya vs Itachi and Kisame threads on all vs debating platforms to see how many people will call you ''intelligent'' .


your argument is stupid. The lesson is not from "how many people", it's about the source material that we have.
We do have the manga clearly having Jiraiya to be stronger than them.

if ALL people, but one said Jiraiya is weaker, then all of those people are wrong. It's that simple.
and that one guy would be correct

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## Dannyson97 (Nov 23, 2020)

New Folder said:


> your argument is stupid. The lesson is not from "how many people", it's about the source material that we have.
> We do have the manga clearly having Jiraiya to be stronger than them.


Idk , Pain said Jiraya would have won with full intel.Do you actually believe that since he was already struggling with 3 paths already and when all of them showed up he got negged?Pretty sure his statement was even more ''accurate'' since he was just done stomping him unlike Itachi who never even fought Jiraya , or trained with him anyway.And claiming that he would have since both of them are from the leaf is headcanon anyway.


New Folder said:


> if ALL people, but one said Jiraiya is weaker, then all of those people are wrong. It's that simple.
> and that one guy would be correct


You just got destroyed already , why continue to embarrass yourself even further?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Informative 1


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## PereVentele (Nov 23, 2020)

New Folder said:


> your argument is stupid. The lesson is not from "how many people", it's about the source material that we have.
> We do have the manga clearly having Jiraiya to be stronger than them.
> 
> if ALL people, but one said Jiraiya is weaker, then all of those people are wrong. It's that simple.
> and that one guy would be correct



If his argument is stupid why not make a thread then where u put both Itachi and Kisame against Jiraya.When 90%+ will say Itachi alone handles Jiraya you gonna call them stupid and salty Itachi fans as well?

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Trojan (Nov 23, 2020)

Dannyson97 said:


> Idk , Pain said Jiraya would have won with full intel.Do you actually believe that since he was already struggling with 3 paths already and when all of them showed up he got negged?Pretty sure his statement was even more ''accurate'' since he was just done stomping him unlike Itachi who never even fought Jiraya , or trained with him anyway.And claiming that he would have since both of them are from the leaf is headcanon anyway.


Sure, why not?  We have seen how naruto made quick work out of them because he only had info on them.
Heck, even Kakashi & Gai stated that they can counter Pain's paths now that they know of their abilities. 

*Spoiler*: _1_ 



*Link Removed*




also, he wasn't "negged". He faced all of them with arm and still managed to deat one path
(the location they were in was destroyed after the fight)



Dannyson97 said:


> You just got destroyed already , why continue to embarrass yourself even further?


you must be a 2 years old child. 

you must also think when people were saying Earth is flat, they were correct because they were the majority? 

please go get educated. You're an embarrassment for humankind lol 


and again, stop bringing your insecurities about your favorite in different threads. 

if you want a Jiraiya Vs itachi thread, go and make one. 


thank you and good luck

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Dannyson97 (Nov 23, 2020)

PereVentele said:


> If his argument is stupid why not make a thread then where u put both Itachi and Kisame against Jiraya.When 90%+ will say Itachi alone handles Jiraya you gonna call them stupid and salty Itachi fans as well?


+1 Or make a similar thread like OP saying this to see how many people agree with him.


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## Trojan (Nov 23, 2020)

PereVentele said:


> If his argument is stupid why not make a thread then where u put both Itachi and Kisame against Jiraya.When 90%+ will say Itachi alone handles Jiraya you gonna call them stupid and salty Itachi fans as well?


he can make one if he wants. I am not holding his hands.  

he is the one getting salty over his favorite in a thread that has nothing to do with him.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Architect (Nov 23, 2020)

Same shit, both are meh

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MShadows (Nov 23, 2020)

Get back on topic

Reactions: Like 2


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## Dannyson97 (Nov 23, 2020)

New Folder said:


> Sure, why not?  We have seen how naruto made quick work out of them because he only had info on them.
> Heck, even Kakashi & Gai stated that they can counter Pain's paths now that they know of their abilities.


Pain was already exhausted from blowing up the entire village and couldn't use the deva path ability until most of his paths were destroyed.He had boss summons like Gamabunta to help him unlike Jiraya.Besides , Jiraya could not react to the Asura path and got his arm cut off while Naruto blitzed it , this may imply Naruto is much faster.


New Folder said:


> *Spoiler*: _1_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pain was not even fighting at full power.


New Folder said:


> you must be a 2 years old child.


Good , so your mental capacity is below to that of a 2 year old child.


New Folder said:


> you must also think when people were saying Earth is flat, they were correct because they are the majority?


What does this have to do with the post?And no , the earth is not flat , your brain is because it got squeezed pretty hard at birth.


New Folder said:


> please go get educated. Your an embossment for humankind lol


You're* . Good to know your grammar matches your non existent mental capacity as well.


New Folder said:


> and again, stop bringing your insecurities about your favorite in different threads.


The very fact that u don't have the balls to make such a thread proves you are the one who is being insecure.



New Folder said:


> if you want a Jiraiya Vs itachi thread, go and make one.


Why not make it yourself?Afraid you will be called for bias and stupidity?


New Folder said:


> thank you and good luck


Thanks , good luck to you as well.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Zembie (Nov 23, 2020)

This thread is a fucking mess, that's all I can say about it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Friendly 1


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## Tsukuyomi (Nov 23, 2020)

Zembie said:


> This thread is a fucking mess, that's all I can say about it.


Tbf all of this could have been avoided if people could put their bias or hateboner for Tobirama aside and debate objectively

Reactions: Friendly 4 | Dislike 1


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 23, 2020)



Reactions: Agree 1


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## Trojan (Nov 23, 2020)

Dannyson97 said:


> Pain was already exhausted from blowing up the entire village and couldn't use the deva path ability until most of his paths were destroyed.He had boss summons like Gamabunta to help him unlike Jiraya.Besides , Jiraya could not react to the Asura path and got his arm cut off while Naruto blitzed it , this may imply Naruto is much faster.


So be it. Kishi can make whatever the hell scenario he wants. He can make it so Pain cannot make his big attacks like CST or CT
since he is in the rain village. Jiriaya could use more clones to target the other paths while Frog Song being pulled off. 

How come you are so adamant in knowing that's it's IMPOSSIBLE for Kishi to hold his pencil and paper and draw whatever scenario he sees fit? 



Dannyson97 said:


> Pain was not even fighting at full power.


Again, irrelevant. 
Because if Pain want fighting at full power as you claim, Kishi can make that excuse if he wants Vs Jiraiya
or makes Jiriaya stronger, or whatever the hell he wants. 

for you to say that statement is impossible, is you saying Kishi can't draw/right whatever he wants. 
which is obviously not the case...



Dannyson97 said:


> What does this have to do with the post?


I guess you must be spoon-fed everything, huh?
it doesn't matter how many people agree or disagree with you. If you are wrong, you are wrong.
If the number were to increase, the wrong will continue to be wrong. 

if all Naruto-readers were to be itachi-tards, and they claim "itachi is stronger than Kaguya" (for example)
that will not make their claim correct because there are thousands/millions of them.  



Dannyson97 said:


> The very fact that u don't have the balls to make such a thread proves you are the one who is being insecure.


why should I make threads that you are bitching about? Or can you not make it yourself? 

Not to mention, I already know that this forum is flooded with itachi's fanboys anyway. If that what you are looking for


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## Lamuledetraspatas (Nov 23, 2020)

Aight , so I will give my opinion on this thread starting with OP.

OP is definitely not a saint here seeing as how he reacted.But I can't blame him too hard since people came out and gave negative reactions to his post without actually addressing his arguments in a complete and respectful manner.For example , some users just got tagged here to just neg his post without giving any insight , those who tried became offensive and started insulting him.Others made fun of his post.

Looking at the entire thread and all the posts in it makes me consider that this is not even a debate at all.I may get shit on for this but OP's arguments were at least decent when it came to determining who is faster or who wins.Was his post long? Definitely , but as a debater , you should at least address 70% of his arguments in order to give credibility to your opinion and in a respectful and civil manner.Even if he is wrong , insulting each other and just saying X wins or Y is faster is a not debating , it's pretty much offensive behaviour . And seeing as both OP and the others who posted are largely guilty of this , both sides are wrong.

Reactions: Friendly 5 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Itachi san88 (Nov 23, 2020)



Reactions: Funny 2


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## PereVentele (Nov 23, 2020)

New Folder said:


> Not to mention, I already know that this forum is flooded with itachi's fanboys anyway. If that what you are looking for


Ok then , but I'm pretty sure not all forums are biased towards Itachi.Do you think that making a ''Jiraya vs Itachi'' thead on an unbiased forum will get Jiraya the win?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Nov 23, 2020)

PereVentele said:


> Ok then , but I'm pretty sure not all forums are biased towards Itachi.Do you think that making a ''Jiraya vs Itachi'' thead on an unbiased forum will get Jiraya the win?


they are biased, obviously.

It's one thing to say "itachi can defeat Jiraiya". that's an opinion you can respect.
It's another thing to claim "LOOOL, FUCK NO!! ITACHI IS 2-3 ABOVE ALL SANNIN COMBINED!"

Then you know that type of tards are only talking out of their asses out of love for the favorites. 

the closest example for this is the manga telling us about Mu Vs Gengetsu = their death.
One can even say s/he think one of them is slightly stronger/weaker than the other. And that's fine...

Where itachi's wankers take their fanboyism to a completely different level and act as if he is in a completely different tier when he isn't.  

as for the other itachi's wanker, who seems to be offended by Kisame's inclusion, I already debated this before. Kisame is a tier lower than them, it doesn't matter if it were

Jiraiya Vs itachi & Kisame
or
Jiraiya & Kisame Vs itachi.

the difficulty will remain the same in a manga-context. You could say, Kisame's presence is irrelevent.


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## Lyren (Nov 23, 2020)

Tfw you make 6 dupes to increase your OP agree ratings

Reactions: Funny 7


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## Speedyamell (Nov 23, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Tfw you make 6 dupes to increase your OP agree ratings


Lmao how shamelessly desperate

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Final Jutsu (Nov 23, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Tfw you make 6 dupes to increase your OP agree ratings


 I just noticed. I thought you were kidding. 6 "members" in the agree got banned. Nearly all actual members disagree with the opening post.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Trojan (Nov 23, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Tfw you make 6 dupes to increase your OP agree ratings


honestly I was wondering from where did all those people pop up, and how come are they all Tobi-tards 

whose dupes are they tho? 

is it you, @t0xeus ?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## t0xeus (Nov 23, 2020)

New Folder said:


> honestly I was wondering from where did all those people pop up, and how come are they all Tobi-tards
> 
> whose dupes are they tho?
> 
> is it you, @t0xeus ?


No, though someone could make a dupe to fight the Minato wank seeing how you got your @Bob74h dupe (probabl?) now to underrate Tobirama.


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## Trojan (Nov 23, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> No, though someone could make a dupe to fight the Minato wank seeing how you got your @Bob74h dupe (probabl?) now to underrate Tobirama.


Bitch, please.

You seriously think I would say retarded ass shit as Fugaku & Oro are stronger than Minato?

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Monarch (Nov 23, 2020)

New Folder said:


> Bitch, please.
> 
> You seriously think I would say retarded ass shit as Fugaku & Oro are stronger than Minato?


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## Bob74h (Nov 23, 2020)

New Folder said:


> You seriously think I would say retarded ass shit as Fugaku & Oro are stronger than Minato?


Fugaku was confident he could beat the entire leaf village that includes minato plus fugaku thought he could control kurama at full power whilie minato died fighting that same njuu.

hiruzen stated to anko that was 13 years ago in regards to orochimaru meaning he was not confident that minato could have beaten orochimaru


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## Trojan (Nov 23, 2020)

Bob74h said:


> Fugaku was confident he could beat the entire leaf village that includes minato plus fugaku thought he could control kurama at full power whilie minato died fighting that same njuu.


I don't debate filler.   
Also "was confident" is shit argument anyway. The Gokage were confident they will defeat Madara as well, and we know how
that ended up to be. 



Bob74h said:


> hiruzen stated to anko that was 13 years ago in regards to orochimaru meaning he was not confident that minato could have beaten orochimaru


lol what?  
13 years ago was in reference to when Obito attacked the village with Kurama. It has nothing to do with Oro's power.


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 23, 2020)

New Folder said:


> it's not about whether a retcon/asspull happened or not for Tobirama. It's WHEN it happened.
> 
> Some of Tobirama's wanker think his FTG asspull didn't happen until Hashirama's flashback showing Tobirama Vs Izuna.
> 
> ...


Stupid logic.
You're ASSUMING Minato was talking about FTG in that chapter.

When back then, we had no reason to believe he was talking about FTG, as readers.

You can't look at a retcon retroactively, and say Kishi had it planned out at X point in time as he was writing.


Tobirama didn't have FTG or he would have escaped back to Konoha with his team period. He can teleport two people at a time, even up to 4 based on his War arc Feats, and had markings on Hokage Monument.


Back then, the reader knew Tobirama had A space-time ninjutsu. Nowhere does Minato say it was FTG.

Therefore it's irrelevant. You only say it's FTG because now that he has been retconned, Minato could only be talking about FTG, but that's WITH the retcon.


Before the retcon, Minato was original creator of FTG period, which means you are being dishonest, assuming you were reading the manga back in 2011/2012 or whenever the hell that chapter was written. if you believed Minato was talking about FTG.

The reader had no reason to believe it was FTG, assuming they read Databook 2,  but just some other unnamed teleporation jutsu that was also surpassed by Obito's Kamui.


Later on, Kishi finally decided on Tobirama getting FTG, and it was a simple retcon since he was already stated to have a Space/time ninjutsu, even though it's still bullshit and shit on what he already established.

Having a space-time ninjutsu wasn't supposed to mean he had FTG originally because it's explicitly stated in DB2 and implied by his decision making in his death story that he did not have FTG. 


And like it or not FTG is a big boost to one's speed and gives you any position you want in space instantly, and as such it's a huge advantage in combat.

Restrict Minato from using FTG or Space Time Barrier, and let's see if he still beats A+B , Hussain.

Just because the author never explicitly retconned Tobirama's loss now that he had FTG still doesn't change the fact  the loss makes no sense, and is a PIS scene, as post retcon the death story happens the same way as already written, which means he didn't have FTG as an option to escape a force  that supposedly outmatched him. But lacking FTG is ALSO the very same reason he would have been outmatched, and if he had it available he wouldn't need to retreat from Kinkaku Unit in the first place, as he would now be stronger than them based on his late War Arc feats and portrayal.


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## Trojan (Nov 23, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Stupid logic.
> You're ASSUMING Minato was talking about FTG in that chapter.


No, you are being stupid. As per always.

Minato said Tobirama has S/T jutsu
Tobirama turned out to have a FTG
FTG is a S/T jutsu

Therefore, Tobirama's S/T jutsu = FTG.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Dislike 1


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## t0xeus (Nov 23, 2020)

New Folder said:


> Bitch, please.
> 
> You seriously think I would say retarded ass shit as Fugaku & Oro are stronger than Minato?


Saying something that goes against your beliefs to throw off the mods is a smart move after all.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Neutral 2


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