# Kakashi Vs. Itachi



## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 29, 2014)

I recently watched the Kakashi filler arc in the anime, and even though it might not be canon, it had some cool interactions with Anbu Kakashi and Anbu Itachi. It got me thinking which of the two is more skilled without all these crazy god-like powers.

So how about *Current Kakashi Vs. Itachi at his best*. Both only have access to the normal sharingan.



Location: Kakashi Vs. Sasuke
Restrictions: Mangekyo Sharingan
Mindset: IC (Intent to kill)
Distance: 30 meters
Knowledge: Manga

Scenario 1: No prep time for either combatants.

Scenario 2: 30 minute prep time for both combatants.

Scenario 3: No knowledge or prep time for either combatants.

Scenario 4: Unlock the Mangekyo for both (just for fun, I know it probably isn't very balanced)


----------



## Rocky (Aug 29, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Scenario 1: No prep time for either combatants.



Current Kakashi blitzes and snaps Itachi's neck.



> Scenario 2: 30 minute prep time for both combatants.



Eventually, ^.



> Scenario 3: No knowledge or prep time for either combatants.



^.



> Scenario 4: Unlock the Mangekyo for both (just for fun, I know it probably isn't very balanced)



^.

Or, Kakashi can send Itachi's crotch to join Kaguya's bone before Itachi processes what happened.

Or he can activate Perfect Susano'o and swing in Itachi's general direction. 


______

Godkashi kept pace with Super Kaguya and claimed to have the power of Rikudō, which is the same power as Godruto and Godsauce, who can 1v1 Jūbi Jins.

Itachi can't 1v1 Jūbi Jins.


----------



## Garcher (Aug 29, 2014)

If we talk about manga current Kakashi, Itachi solos neg dif


----------



## JuicyG (Aug 29, 2014)

LOL...hmmmhahaha


Itachi solos this fodder


----------



## Hachibi (Aug 29, 2014)

Kakashi blitz him with Raikiri for the first 3 scenarios, Kamui GG for the fourth


----------



## crisler (Aug 29, 2014)

The attitude difference between Itachi and Kakashi in part1 would be a good answer.

Itachi was confident, Kakashi was worried.


----------



## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 29, 2014)

crisler said:


> The attitude difference between Itachi and Kakashi in part1 would be a good answer.
> 
> Itachi was confident, Kakashi was worried.



This isn't part one Kakashi. And he was worried about the Mangekyo, which he now has as well and is restricted in this fight anyway.


----------



## crisler (Aug 29, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> This isn't part one Kakashi. And he was worried about the Mangekyo, which he now has as well and is restricted in this fight anyway.



With all of their MS restricted, kakashi is practically part1 kakashi and so is Itachi.

Kakashi was worried even before Itachi boasted about his Tsukuyomi.


----------



## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 29, 2014)

crisler said:


> With all of their MS restricted, kakashi is practically part1 kakashi and so is Itachi.
> 
> Kakashi was worried even before Itachi boasted about his Tsukuyomi.



I... don't think you've been reading the manga for the past 500 chapters so... yeah, I'll just leave it at that.


----------



## crisler (Aug 29, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> I... don't think you've been reading the manga for the past 500 chapters so... yeah, I'll just leave it at that.



raiton bunshin is all that kakashi improved in base ever since part1. i doubt one bunshin skill is enough to change the outcome.

other than that, kakashis' been using skills he had in part1 (raikiri, bunshins) or MS. The same goes with Itachi, as he's been using MS mainly.


----------



## JuicyG (Aug 29, 2014)

crisler said:


> raiton bunshin is all that kakashi improved in base ever since part1. i doubt one bunshin skill is enough to change the outcome.
> 
> other than that, kakashis' been using skills he had in part1 (raikiri, bunshins) or MS. The same goes with Itachi, as he's been using MS mainly.




Increased speed feats. Higher chakra reserves. For restricted MS form. Without MS what has Itachi shown that clearly puts him above Itachi? Nothing. 

Anything above this is a stomp in Kakashi's favor, Itachi literally gets babyshaked.


----------



## crisler (Aug 29, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Increased speed feats. Higher chakra reserves. For restricted MS form. Without MS what has Itachi shown that clearly puts him above Itachi? Nothing.
> 
> Anything above this is a stomp in Kakashi's favor, Itachi literally gets babyshaked.



Increased speed? show me panels of his speed improvements.

higher chakra reserves is mostly due to kyuubi chakra.

You want to know what puts Itachi above kakashi in base? ask part1 kakashi cuz clearly he knew he was in trouble when facing itachi.


----------



## JuicyG (Aug 29, 2014)

crisler said:


> Increased speed? show me panels of his speed improvements.
> 
> higher chakra reserves is mostly due to kyuubi chakra.
> 
> You want to know what puts Itachi above kakashi in base? ask part1 kakashi cuz clearly he knew he was in trouble when facing itachi.




Part 1 kakashi is clearly not current kakashi. Thats ovi, why you are comparing the two I have zero ideas...

First off, the databook shows an improvement in speed from part 1 -part 3 from 4 to 4.5. Its not a lot, but its more than what he was in part 1.

It is likely with MS restricted, both itachi and kakashi will engage in CQC which kakashi has shown to be clearly better and more adapted in. 

Before the timeskip kakashi barely could keep up with Itachi but in part 2 and forward

[4]

Itachi's ninjutsu would likely be weaker than Kakashi's as well considering this is current kakashi


----------



## Hachibi (Aug 29, 2014)

Comparing part 1 Kakashi with Current Kakashi


----------



## crisler (Aug 29, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Part 1 kakashi is clearly not current kakashi. Thats ovi, why you are comparing the two I have zero ideas...
> 
> First off, the databook shows an improvement in speed from part 1 -part 3 from 4 to 4.5. Its not a lot, but its more than what he was in part 1.
> 
> ...



I don't exactly know how the databook works, so I won't get further into that alright. But 4-> 4.5 clearly doesn't seem like a huge improvement, especially when Itachi already had 5 (although I know direct comparison is inaccurate way to judge their speed)

I don't see how kakashi is more better and adapted in CQC battle, especially when the two of them fought it was pretty much even if not Itachi having the upper hand. In part1, kakashi couldn't even follow itachis' speed with sharingan and even in part2 he fought a 30% clone, WITH naruto and others' help. Even then Itachi wasn't outmatched in terms of CQC. In fact, considering the fact that kakashi was trying best to avoid genjutsu while itachi was trying catch him in one, and actually succeeded (though it was a bunshin), won't it be fair to say Itachi had better performance in that battle? And it's not like Itachi never showed close CQC abilties against other, in fact he showed he was quite capable when fighting against Sasuke and Bee.

That link you gave me doesn't really mean much, I never expected Kakashi to not be able to do that. 

Kakashis' elemental versatility is above Itachi, not his overall ninjutsu skills. Hiruzen is more versatile as he has all 5 elements but I'm not sure if his ninjutsu is greater than others. Itachi has the upper hand in genjutsu.


----------



## crisler (Aug 29, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Comparing part 1 Kakashi with Current Kakashi



As if kakashis' base developed THAT much  laughable, when even sasuke stopped developping his base form after he gained his MS. Kakashi is no different from any other MS users in that his development in base practically stopped as he got MS.


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 29, 2014)

I don't know if your trolling or what but Kakashi has definitely improved. He has reaction feats on the level of 8th gate Gai. He reacted as fast as KCM Minato and moved just as fast as him. Itachi ain't got shit on that alone.


----------



## JuicyG (Aug 29, 2014)

crisler said:


> I don't exactly know how the databook works, so I won't get further into that alright. But 4-> 4.5 clearly doesn't seem like a huge improvement, especially when Itachi already had 5 (although I know direct comparison is inaccurate way to judge their speed)
> 
> I don't see how kakashi is more better and adapted in CQC battle, especially when the two of them fought it was pretty much even if not Itachi having the upper hand. In part1, kakashi couldn't even follow itachis' speed with sharingan and even in part2 he fought a 30% clone, WITH naruto and others' help. Even then Itachi wasn't outmatched in terms of CQC. In fact, considering the fact that kakashi was trying best to avoid genjutsu while itachi was trying catch him in one, and actually succeeded (though it was a bunshin), won't it be fair to say Itachi had better performance in that battle? And it's not like Itachi never showed close CQC abilties against other, in fact he showed he was quite capable when fighting against Sasuke and Bee.
> 
> ...





In CQC there taijutsu is about even, but the close range ninjutsu that Kakashi uses like the raikri will give Kakashi the upper hand. Part 1 Kakashi-Part 2 kakashi are not on the same levels. So going back to what happened in part 1 is almost trash now when your using current kakashi. Itachi totally outclasses Kakashi in part 1 MAINLY DUE TO MS.

Also kakashi would now have 2 3T sharingans, in part 1 he only had one to use. Makes a huge difference


----------



## Garcher (Aug 29, 2014)

You know, current Kakashi has lost the Sharingans.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 29, 2014)

Kakashi would fodder stomp Itachi in all scenario's. Kakashi has Hagaromo's Senjutsu Chakra, and can apply it even outside of MS-Techniques; remember Kakashi's Kurokaminari-Rarikiri. Yeah Itachi w/o MS has nothing on that. With MS Kakashi's Double Kamui and Hagoromo Senjutsu empowered P-Susano'o would also demolish Itachi.


----------



## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 29, 2014)

Ok... It's really not worth arguing whether or not base Kakashi has improved since part one. You obviously haven't been paying attention to the manga since the start of part two, because Kakashi had already improved within that two year time skip alone. And he's only been getting stronger since then.

One thing that I would like to clarify... you are putting _way_ too much stock in Kakashi's encounter with Itachi in part one. Kakashi knew about Itachi's genjutsu abilities and that's what he was afraid of. He immediately told his teammates to avoid eye contact. Also, to Kakashi's knowledge at the time, Itachi had killed his *entire* clan. Which we now know isn't true. He had help from Obito. But that kind of reputation would be frightening to anyone. 

Finally... I'd like to point out that you've basically proven yourself wrong by focusing on that encounter. You say Kakashi hasn't improved much and then parade that part one encounter like it has any weight on these characters currently. But when you look at Kakashi's encounter with Itachi in part two, he's clearly more confident and he even manages to outsmart him. How is that not a perfectly marked improvement? And even *that* encounter is _completely_ outdated now.


----------



## Hachibi (Aug 29, 2014)

crisler said:


> As if kakashis' base developed THAT much  laughable, when even sasuke stopped developping his base form after he gained his MS. Kakashi is no different from any other MS users in that his development in base practically stopped as he got MS.



Considering he could fight V2 Edo Jin, Rinnegan Obito in Kamuiland and mentally reacting to susano arrow, he didn't improve at all


----------



## crisler (Aug 29, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> In CQC there taijutsu is about even, but the close range ninjutsu that Kakashi uses like the raikri will give Kakashi the upper hand. Part 1 Kakashi-Part 2 kakashi are not on the same levels. So going back to what happened in part 1 is almost trash now when your using current kakashi. Itachi totally outclasses Kakashi in part 1 MAINLY DUE TO MS.
> 
> Also kakashi would now have 2 3T sharingans, in part 1 he only had one to use. Makes a huge difference



Having 2 3T sharingan makes the battle even better for Itachi. Kakashi always had, and will have trouble using the sharingan as non-uchiha body. 

Itachi KNOWS kakashi has raikiri. He already did when sasuke used against him in part1. unless itachi somehow decides to directly confront raikiri like naruto does with his rasengan, chidori is just another kunai, especially for someone like itachi who's so physically weak that a shuriken is enough to make him bleed. 

Look at part1 again. Before knowing Itachi has MS kakashi already knows he's in danger by confronting him. That's when it was a 2:3 with 2 solid jounins in his team.


----------



## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 29, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> You know, current Kakashi has lost the Sharingans.



You can't even see his eyes in the newest chapter, so that's not confirmed. But to clarify, Kakashi has both sharingan in this fight. Let's not get into semantics.


----------



## crisler (Aug 29, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Considering he could fight V2 Edo Jin, Rinnegan Obito in Kamuiland and mentally reacting to susano arrow, he didn't improve at all



fighting with bijuu jins -> raikiri.
kamui land fight -> uhm...fighting obito who can't use kamui is now such a great feat?
susanoo arrow -> MS.


----------



## Hachibi (Aug 29, 2014)

crisler said:


> fighting with bijuu jins -> raikiri.
> kamui land fight -> uhm...fighting obito who can't use kamui is now such a great feat?
> susanoo arrow -> MS.



-Since when Raikiri need MS?
-Yeah, because Obito doesn't have a sharingan and a rinnegan for precognition and shit. And beside, Kakashi couldn't use Kamui too.
-Considering the arrow was fired when he only had 3T Sharingan.Hell, they were two arrows actually.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 29, 2014)

Kakashi fodderstomps low difficult.


----------



## crisler (Aug 29, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Ok... It's really not worth arguing whether or not base Kakashi has improved since part one. You obviously haven't been paying attention to the manga since the start of part two, because Kakashi had already improved within that two year time skip alone. And he's only been getting stronger since then.
> 
> One thing that I would like to clarify... you are putting _way_ too much stock in Kakashi's encounter with Itachi in part one. Kakashi knew about Itachi's genjutsu abilities and that's what he was afraid of. He immediately told his teammates to avoid eye contact. Also, to Kakashi's knowledge at the time, Itachi had killed his *entire* clan. Which we now know isn't true. He had help from Obito. But that kind of reputation would be frightening to anyone.
> 
> Finally... I'd like to point out that you've basically proven yourself wrong by focusing on that encounter. You say Kakashi hasn't improved much and then parade that part one encounter like it has any weight on these characters currently. But when you look at Kakashi's encounter with Itachi in part two, he's clearly more confident and he even manages to outsmart him. How is that not a perfectly marked improvement? And even *that* encounter is _completely_ outdated now.



Stronger, yes, but base wise? No. He's been getting more proficient with the usage of his MS and perhaps have more experience, especially with uchihas, but fighting against non-ms itachi doesn't require any of those. He already knew enough about Itachi back then besides the MS, but he was still worried. 

It's not just about Kakashi. Naruto and Sasuke just had huge developments even in base because they were at the center of their developing age. Kakashi already was a full jounin in part1, perhaps slightly rusty, but that's about it. MS is his biggest accomplishments in part2, but base-wise he's not significantly different from part1. All of the feats he's shown in part2 are mainly already through what he had in part1.


----------



## crisler (Aug 29, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> -Since when Raikiri need MS?
> -Yeah, because Obito doesn't have a sharingan and a rinnegan for precognition and shit. And beside, Kakashi couldn't use Kamui too.
> -Considering the arrow was fired when he only had 3T Sharingan.Hell, they were two arrows actually.



He fought with the jins using taijutsu and raikiri. He had both of them in part1. 
Kamui was the one and only threatening ninjutsu Obito had. And Obito intended to get his heart pierced, in order to remove madaras' seal.
Why the hell are you mentioning MS feats when I'm talking about base kakashi and base itachi


----------



## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 29, 2014)

crisler said:


> Stronger, yes, but base wise? No. He's been getting more proficient with the usage of his MS and perhaps have more experience, especially with uchihas, but fighting against non-ms itachi doesn't require any of those. He already knew enough about Itachi back then besides the MS, but he was still worried.
> 
> It's not just about Kakashi. Naruto and Sasuke just had huge developments even in base because they were at the center of their developing age. Kakashi already was a full jounin in part1, perhaps slightly rusty, but that's about it. MS is his biggest accomplishments in part2, but base-wise he's not significantly different from part1. All of the feats he's shown in part2 are mainly already through what he had in part1.


----------



## crisler (Aug 29, 2014)

Just to clear things up, I'm not just attacking Kakashi without his MS. I'd say the same thing about Itachi as well, but I just don't because ever since his introduction he had the MS. I'd say the same thing for Sasuke and Naruto. Sasuke's base is no different from what he had during Hebi Sasuke, and Naruto probably the same during part 2. Everything they've been doing is activate/utilize their best forms, like kakashi and all other shinobis. Not that it's wrong, but it definitely means their development in base isn't as fast as it used to be.

I believe, if there were any significant differences, kishi would have done anything to make the readers notice it: like how he conveniently added "His powers are much stronger than the six path of pain" during naruto and nagatos' encounter, or "is he better than itachi?" comment by C about Sasukes' flame.

Other than that, no.


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 29, 2014)

Kakashi was able to combo with 8th gate Gai. This is a man who got cut up by Zabuza in part 1. That alone is a huge speed improvement. He moved just as fast as Obito to block Kaguya's bones. Again a huge improvement over part 1.

Chakra wise. 5 mins of fighting, a suiton kage bunshin, 2 suitons and he was barely able to move for days. He used ms 6 times, raikiri 4/5 times, a doton, after using 2 kage bunshin that cut his chakra in half twice so he was at 25% when he did that. And ALL OF THAT WAS BEFORE HE GOT KYUUBI CHAKRA.

To say he hasn't improved is fucking retarded and you should feel bad for even trying to debate it.


----------



## Hachibi (Aug 29, 2014)

crisler said:


> He fought with the jins using taijutsu and raikiri. He had both of them in part1.
> Kamui was the one and only threatening ninjutsu Obito had. And Obito intended to get his heart pierced, in order to remove madaras' seal.
> Why the hell are you mentioning MS feats when I'm talking about base kakashi and base itachi



-So basically Part 1 Kakashi can fight V2 Jin in taijutsu and not get destroyed?


-Doesn't change the fact that he didn't get destroyed by him. And btw, Obito has more dangerous jutsu like Bakufu Ranfu or the mokuton he used against the mist ninja 

-I'm talking about 3T Sharingan,which they both have and isn't restricted for the first 3 scenario.


----------



## crisler (Aug 29, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Kakashi was able to combo with 8th gate Gai. This is a man who got cut up by Zabuza in part 1. That alone is a huge speed improvement. He moved just as fast as Obito to block Kaguya's bones. Again a huge improvement over part 1.
> 
> Chakra wise. 5 mins of fighting, a suiton kage bunshin, 2 suitons and he was barely able to move for days. He used ms 6 times, raikiri 4/5 times, a doton, after using 2 kage bunshin that cut his chakra in half twice so he was at 25% when he did that. And ALL OF THAT WAS BEFORE HE GOT KYUUBI CHAKRA.
> 
> To say he hasn't improved is fucking retarded and you should feel bad for even trying to debate it.



He was protecting useless kids when fighting Zabuza. Obito was a moving zombie who was half dead. I don't know what the fucking magic made them move when the two ashura/indra transmigrants couldn't, but comparing his movements with obito brings him down, not up.

All those things you've listed as chakra wise, I was under the impression that those were developement in his proficiency, not his chakra pool. chakra pools don't change (which is precisely why being born with huge chakra pool is important). And it was more centered around his MS proficiency, which i'm excluding here.


----------



## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 29, 2014)

"I was under the impression that those were development in his proficiency"

...


So... how is that not an improvement, exactly? Getting more proficient at something... hmm.


----------



## crisler (Aug 29, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> -So basically Part 1 Kakashi can fight V2 Jin in taijutsu and not get destroyed?
> 
> 
> -Doesn't change the fact that he didn't get destroyed by him. And btw, Obito has more dangerous jutsu like Bakufu Ranfu or the mokuton he used against the mist ninja
> ...



kakashi was as powerful as kisame in part1, meaning he was at least lower akatsuki tier. I don't think it's a stretch that kakashi in part1 was already capable of fighting v2 jins. A bijuu itself might be difficult, but v1~v2 jin is still possible, due to having elemental versatility and raikiri which is a powerful penetrating ninjutsu. It's just uneffective against itachi because it's like using a lightsaber against a cat.


----------



## crisler (Aug 29, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> "I was under the impression that those were development in his proficiency"
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



MS mainly, I said....and 1 more raikiri isn't a deciding factor. Using a kunai or raikiri is just the same against the foes like itachi when hitting him is the key. he's fucking weak all, you need is a stab and he can't even heal


----------



## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 29, 2014)

crisler said:


> MS mainly, I said....and 1 more raikiri isn't a deciding factor. Using a kunai or raikiri is just the same against the foes like itachi when hitting him is the key. he's fucking weak all, you need is a stab and he can't even heal


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 29, 2014)

crisler said:


> He was protecting useless kids when fighting Zabuza. Obito was a moving zombie who was half dead. I don't know what the fucking magic made them move when the two ashura/indra transmigrants couldn't, but comparing his movements with obito brings him down, not up.



Zabuza straight outplayed and beat Kakashi tactically, something no one else has ever done. And I'm including Itachi. Kakashi would be dead if not for those "useless" kids.

He still did a combo with 8th gate Gai. When black Zetsu went after Obito, Kakashi and KCM Minato reacted at the same time and moved just as fast as each other. Again, leaps and bounds over part 1



> All those things you've listed as chakra wise, I was under the impression that those were developement in his proficiency, not his chakra pool. chakra pools don't change (which is precisely why being born with huge chakra pool is important). And it was more centered around his MS proficiency, which i'm excluding here.



No. A jutsu always cost the exact same.

Say raikiri takes 5 points of chakra (got no idea how to do it percentage wise so this will have to do). Kakashi can use 9 points on raikiri and waste 4 points, but he always has to use atleast 5 points or the jutsu don't work. Now, this is Kakashi. One of the greatest genius's of the manga and to say it is bad at chakra control is fucking retarded. Beginning of the manga Sakura had perfect chakra control. Sasuke was almost perfect. Naruto was eh, but by the end had great chakra control. This is Kakashi, who became a jounin by age 13, has 3 elements, over 1000 jutsu. His chakra control is going to be one of the best. So his chakra pool got bigger.


----------



## Hachibi (Aug 29, 2014)

crisler said:


> kakashi was as powerful as kisame in part1, meaning he was at least lower akatsuki tier. I don't think it's a stretch that kakashi in part1 was already capable of fighting v2 jins. A bijuu itself might be difficult, but v1~v2 jin is still possible, due to having elemental versatility and raikiri which is a powerful penetrating ninjutsu. It's just uneffective against itachi because it's like using a lightsaber against a cat.



Kisame's position isn't stable tho, since it depend of the number of chakra he absorb. And no, Kakashi was scared shirtless against Orochimaru and he himself had problem with KN4 Naruto, which I rank below the V2 Jin


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 29, 2014)

crisler said:


> *kakashi was as powerful as kisame in part1,* meaning he was at least lower akatsuki tier. I don't think it's a stretch that kakashi in part1 was already capable of fighting v2 jins. A bijuu itself might be difficult, but v1~v2 jin is still possible, due to having elemental versatility and raikiri which is a powerful penetrating ninjutsu. It's just uneffective against itachi because it's like using a lightsaber against a cat.


----------



## crisler (Aug 29, 2014)

Alright, seeing as a lot of you are going against what I think with I guess I'll have to re-read the manga and check the details to make sure if I'm right or wrong. Slowly starting to feel that I'm probably not giving kakashi much credit here. Obviously this issue has no answer (Since kishi never displayed it), but thanks for your comments and corrections. Good night for everyone.


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 29, 2014)

crisler said:


> Alright, seeing as a lot of you are going against what I think with I guess I'll have to *re-read the manga* and check the details to make sure if I'm right or wrong. Slowly starting to feel that I'm probably not giving kakashi much credit here. Obviously this issue has no answer (Since kishi never displayed it), but thanks for your comments and corrections. Good night for everyone.



Yeah you go "re"-read the manga. Kakashi has clearly gotten better.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Aug 29, 2014)

War arc kakashi before gaining Obitos sharingan was on par or slightly behind Itachi at that point. Current kakashi destroys Itachi


----------



## Alex Payne (Aug 29, 2014)

Kakashi with Rikudo Chakra is clearly above Itachi due to improved physical stats. But skill-wise I'd say they are about equals. Kakashi improved tremendously after Part 1 while Itachi apparently became weaker due to shifting his efforts to combat illness - meaning that Part 1 was possibly his peak.


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 29, 2014)

What physical stats did Kakashi get from receiving Obito's Sharingan? I mean his reactions and speed feats that were already great.


----------



## Alex Payne (Aug 29, 2014)

You mean fighting powered up Kaguya was within War Arc Kakashi's capabilities?


----------



## Bkprince33 (Aug 30, 2014)

Kakashi wins this having So6 paths chakra is to broken, he could very well beat itachi in base like this.


Skill wise there equal tho, kakashi being proficient in ninjutsu, itachi being proficient in genjutsu



shot out to obito tho he the real mvp


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 30, 2014)

Itachi beat Orochimaru in seconds with no effort whatsoever.

Kakashi was too scared to even attack Orochimaru.

There's your answer.


----------



## Sorin (Aug 30, 2014)

Seems you have missed a whole lot of Naruto manga Niku.

Not that i blame you, part 2 is ass, but some people developed new powers from their part 1 counterparts. You should check out the other fights which didn't involve Itachi.


----------



## Jad (Aug 30, 2014)

Sorin said:


> Seems you have missed a whole lot of Naruto manga Niku.
> 
> Not that i blame you, part 2 is ass, but some people developed new powers from their part 1 counterparts. You should check out the other fights which didn't involve Itachi.



Tiers were so much easier to understand back then. Everyone was already pretty much ranked already. Jounin were Jounins. Kages were Kages. S Rank Missing nins were juse as you would expect, etc...


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 30, 2014)

Sorin said:


> Seems you have missed a whole lot of Naruto manga Niku.
> 
> Not that i blame you, part 2 is ass, but some people developed new powers from their part 1 counterparts. You should check out the other fights which didn't involve Itachi.



I admit I skimmed the OP a bit out of sheer laziness but I thought he was talking about Anbu Kakashi vs. Anbu Itachi.

In which case, I stand by what I said.


----------



## Sorin (Aug 30, 2014)

Anbu Kakashi is probably not even sniffing begining of part 1 Kakashi level, let alone anbu Itachi which was pretty much the version who destroyed, together with Obito, the uchiha clan.

Edit: @ Jad

Yeah you had a pretty stable powerscale. Tiers were tiers. 

Hayate was a special jounin if i'm not mistaken and yet he blitzed Neji while being fucking sick. Just looking at their feats you'd think Neji was superior. Not close.

Shikamaru was goddamn overwhelmed by the presence of 5 measly sound chunins and was already praying to god for forgiveness. Asuma came and cleaned house like a boss.


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 30, 2014)

That's my point.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 30, 2014)

IMO Itachi's always been the most skilled ninja in the manga in terms of technical execution of basic jutsu and weapons. That's why the author didn't need to introduce fancy ones for him. 

This is also why I primarily like to argue about base Itachi, because his base skills are so refined that he can beat most Kage level just with the basics due to overwhelming speed, skill, and insight. 

Moreover, these were all developed by an astoundingly young age before declining from sickness. What could his base skills have been at part I Kakashi's age of 26 if he had remained healthy?

As a 13 year old ANBU, Itachi defeated Orochimaru and many mature Uchiha with basic skills. Part I Kakashi, at 26 years old, was terrified of Orochimaru and likewise called the blood of true Uchiha terrifying.

With that said, Current Kakashi obviously defeats even peak Itachi comfortably, but it's not because of superior talent or genius, just the circumstance of the possession of specific chakra.
​


----------



## Ryuzaki (Sep 6, 2014)

Prime Kakashi (w/Rikoudo Obito chakra) solos without much difficulty..although this weeks Kakashi gets stomped really easily.


----------



## Rain (Sep 6, 2014)

Kakashi loses because he's a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 6, 2014)

I am not sure whats the challange here. Itachi is superior to Kakashi(bar rikodou powerups). He wins all scenarios.


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 6, 2014)

Kakashi > Itachi nuff said


----------



## Semiotic Sacrilege (Sep 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am not sure whats the challange here. Itachi is superior to Kakashi(bar rikodou powerups). He wins all scenarios.



Yeah, your opinion is certainly not biased at all! 
ck


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 6, 2014)

Itachi can only win with surprise Koto. If he doesn't Kakashi eventually lands a kamui Raikiri or PS comes out.

If you mean Kakashi as of this latest chapter he gets curbsomped.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 6, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Yeah, your opinion is certainly not biased at all!
> ck



Where is the bias in it ? 

Up until Kakashi was granted ass pull rikodou powers he was never on par with Itachi, he was always a tier or two below.


----------



## StickaStick (Sep 6, 2014)

War-Arc Kakashi is more or less around Alive-Itachi's level. Probably a tab bit below. 

Anyway, Kakashi with Rikudo chakra stomps. Current Kakashi gets stomped.


----------



## Semiotic Sacrilege (Sep 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Where is the bias in it ?
> 
> Up until Kakashi was granted ass pull rikodou powers he was never on par with Itachi, he was always a tier or two below.



Well, he was Itachi's superior in the Anbu for quite some time. He was chunin/jonin long before Itachi. And he outsmarted Itachi in his fight with Naruto. I'd say the only clear advantage Itachi has ever had over Kakashi is the Mangekyo. They're more or less even in base stats. Which is what this fight is. I'd argue that Kakashi has the upper hand in intellgence, ninjutsu, and taijustu. They're about even when it comes to speed, strength, and stamina. And Itachi has the upper hand in genjutsu. 

If you think that Kakashi doesn't even stand a _chance_ when both their Mangekyo are restricted... I'd call that a bias.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 6, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Well, he was Itachi's superior in the Anbu for quite some time.


No he wasn't, Itachi was captain of his own squad. Also Kakashi is 9 years older than Itachi.



> He was chunin/jonin long before Itachi


See above. Itachi also never got to be a Jonin but still was able to Join akatsuki at 13, something Kakashi would barely qualify for at Wave Arc.

he also soloed Orochimaru at 13, something 27 year old Kakashi was out of his reach.



> And he outsmarted Itachi in his fight with Naruto


Itachi was trying to buy time. Kakashi was extremely scared and precautious against his 30% clone, and it was ended through combined efforts of Naruto and Kakashi.



> I'd say the only clear advantage Itachi has ever had over Kakashi is the Mangekyo.


Both are amazing in base, Kakashi with the edge in ninjutsu, Itachi in genjutsu, and both similarly skilled in Kenjutsu/Taijutsu. Itachi would hold a slight edge in the later based on feats and having two sharingan.



> intellgence,


Not really they are pretty equal here.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 6, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Well, he was Itachi's superior in the Anbu for quite some time.



Itachi was the Black Ops commander, and Part I Kakashi was basing 17-year-old Itachi holding back based on his knowledge of how amazing a 13-year-old Itachi was as a ninja.​


Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> He was chunin/jonin long before Itachi.



Because of war-time. If you want to gauge their actual ability as prodigies, look no further than comparing how 11-year-old Itachi and 26-year-old Kakashi held themselves when facing Orochimaru...​


Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> And he outsmarted Itachi in his fight with Naruto.



He really didn't. Itachi simply had more on his plate due to being outnumbered and not focusing entirely on Kakashi each time, either by focusing on Kurenai or keeping Naruto in genjutsu.​


Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> I'd argue that Kakashi has the upper hand in intellgence, ninjutsu, and taijustu.



Itachi's 30% clone seemed to be a tad smoother in taijutsu than Kakashi's 50% clone. Itachi also has better hype and feats with weapons and ninjutsu execution. 

As for intelligence, Kakashi is at best equal. Itachi's actually a true genius, not just a ninja genius. You can tell by looking at the two when they were both 12 year olds. One's bright, and one's brilliant.​


----------



## Alex Payne (Sep 6, 2014)

I often argue for Itachi's side myself but you guys are blowing it of proportion. Itachi was extremely gifted, true. But he was also born with advanced bloodline which while also requiring to be mastered allows one to reach high level faster. Plus getting Mangekyo is well... cheap. And in Itachi's case it was fully coincidental. While Sharingan for Kakashi was a double-edged sword until MS mastery. Being genius means a lot of things not just reaching certain level faster. I have no doubt that people like Tobirama and Hiruzen reached/exceeded 13-year old Itachi's level when they were older than 13. Are they less gifted or dumber? No.


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 6, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> No he wasn't, Itachi was captain of his own squad. Also Kakashi is 9 years older than Itachi.



At age 13. Kakashi was a jounin (second highest rank besides Hokage, stated in the manga) at 13.



> See above. Itachi also never got to be a Jonin but still was able to Join akatsuki at 13, something Kakashi would barely qualify for at Wave Arc.
> 
> he also soloed Orochimaru at 13, something 27 year old Kakashi was out of his reach.



He was in the village at 13 and wasn't a jounin unlike Kakashi was at that age.

He "soloed" because of MS (we never saw the fight progress beyond the regular genjutsu but it obviously did as Itachi knew of Oro's hydra). It required no training. And he wouldn't have got in Akatsuki either. Kakashi was extremely out of shape facing a ninja who's a Sannin. You could say Itachi was more willing to fight than Kakashi but we never saw Kakashi vs Oro to say Kakashi couldn't win.



> Itachi was trying to buy time. Kakashi was extremely scared and precautious against his 30% clone, and it was ended through combined efforts of Naruto and Kakashi.



Kakashi wasn't scared at all. Itachi actually shit his pants at Kakashi hinting that he had MS. Kakashi didn't need Naruto but used teammwork for efficiency 



> Both are amazing in base, Kakashi with the edge in ninjutsu, Itachi in genjutsu, and both similarly skilled in Kenjutsu/Taijutsu. Itachi would hold a slight edge in the later based on feats and having two sharingan.



Kakashi has knocked people out with base genjutsu in an instant, something Itachi has never done. 2 sharingan mean shit, ask Obito.



Strategoob said:


> Itachi was the Black Ops commander, and Part I Kakashi was basing 17-year-old Itachi holding back based on his knowledge of how amazing a 13-year-old Itachi was as a ninja.​



He wasn't when he first joined ANBU.



> Because of war-time. If you want to gauge their actual ability as prodigies, look no further than comparing how 11-year-old Itachi and 26-year-old Kakashi held themselves when facing Orochimaru...​



LOL, "because of war time". That's the excuse Itachi's mom used AGAINST Itachi. Kakashi proved he was jounin level at 13.



> He really didn't. Itachi simply had more on his plate due to being outnumbered and not focusing entirely on Kakashi each time, either by focusing on Kurenai or keeping Naruto in genjutsu.​


[/quote]

Kakashi was hindered by saving Kurenai and Asuma. And Itachi never cared about keeping Naruto in genjutsu. He just put him in one. Once it was broke, he showed no interest in trying again.



> Itachi's 30% clone seemed to be a tad smoother in taijutsu than Kakashi's 50% clone. Itachi also has better hype and feats with weapons and ninjutsu execution.​




Kakashi has gotten far better. As for ninjutsu excution, read the part 1 fight. Kakashi used just as much jutsu in the same amount of time as Itachi.



> As for intelligence, Kakashi is at best equal. Itachi's actually a true genius, not just a ninja genius. You can tell by looking at the two when they were both 12 year olds. One's bright, and one's brilliant.


[/quote]

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. At age 13 one's ANBU captian and one's a jounin.

ANBU=fodders who have NEVER showed anything special. 
Jounin=Highest rank besides Hokage and Kakashi took out 2 ANBU with one genjutsu no dif. That should tell you everything.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 6, 2014)

alex payne said:


> I often argue for Itachi's side myself but you guys are blowing it of proportion. Itachi was extremely gifted, true. But he was also born with advanced bloodline which while also requiring to be mastered allows one to reach high level faster. Plus getting Mangekyo is well... cheap. And in Itachi's case it was fully coincidental. While Sharingan for Kakashi was a double-edged sword until MS mastery. Being genius means a lot of things not just reaching certain level faster. I have no doubt that people like Tobirama and Hiruzen reached/exceeded 13-year old Itachi's level when they were older than 13. Are they less gifted or dumber? No.



Why is it wrong to say they're less gifted? Take Mozart and Beethoven. One was innately gifted and a genius child, but both were genius adults, and I think Beethoven was better overall.

I'd still say Mozart was more gifted, however, simply based on their childhood aptitudes. Granted, I don't know what Tobirama was like as a child so I don't really compare their childhoods.​


			
				IchLiebe said:
			
		

> It required no training. And he wouldn't have got in Akatsuki either.



Itachi was an associate in Akatsuki before gaining the MS, as Hiruzen mentioned that post-massacre, Itachi had to watch over them alone, without Konoha's support.

This also follows with the timeline established by Akatsuki and Orochimaru, that Itachi was 11 when he forced Orochimaru out, which was before Shisui was killed and Itachi gained the MS.

Itachi was simply a special prodigy, Ich. He could hang with S-class ninja based on his ridiculous ninjutsu speed, weapon skill, heightened intelligence, and legendary genjutsu aptitude.​


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 6, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Why is it wrong to say they're less gifted? Take Mozart and Beethoven. One was innately gifted and a genius child, but both were genius adults, and I think Beethoven was better overall.
> 
> I'd still say Mozart was more gifted, however, simply based on their childhood aptitudes. Granted, I don't know what Tobirama was like as a child so I don't really compare their childhoods.​



I started talking around 1 year old, Einstein didn't talk until he was 4. I'm fucking stupid compared to him. I saw a thing that said he couldn't read till he was 9, I was reading at 6. Again, I'm no where near as smart or gifted as him.


----------



## Alex Payne (Sep 6, 2014)

Itachi was literary born with built-in Kage-lvl jutsu. Not just potential to to use advanced jutsu. Actual jutsu. I don't like to belittle his personal achievements with those eyes but having techniques of that level literally imprinted in your body isn't about being genius or being gifted(when we are talking about talent obviously).


----------



## Ghost (Sep 6, 2014)

^ Not all Uchiha are able to awaken the Sharingan.


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 6, 2014)

saikyou said:


> ^ Not all Uchiha are able to awaken the Sharingan.



Yes, every Uchiha has the potential. Not all go through the trauma to get it though.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 6, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> I started talking around 1 year old, Einstein didn't talk until he was 4. I'm fucking stupid compared to him. I saw a thing that said he couldn't read till he was 9, I was reading at 6. Again, I'm no where near as smart or gifted as him.



Einstein was another example that came to mind, as he's a genius, but not extraordinarily gifted in terms of being a prodigy or having a naturally high aptitude, like say Tesla or Pascal. 

It's "genius vs. hard work." With that said, however, I do believe those internet facts are myths, as Einstein has a high amount of misinformation circulating about him.​


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 6, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Itachi was literary born with built-in Kage-lvl jutsu. Not just potential to to use advanced jutsu. Actual jutsu. I don't like to belittle his personal achievements with those eyes but having techniques of that level literally imprinted in your body isn't about being genius or being gifted(when we are talking about talent obviously).



The Sharingan itself can be factored in, however, because it essentially gives any individual that obtains it an IQ of 200+ with photographic memory, insight, and replication abilities.

But I'm not factoring Tsukuyomi into my estimate of Itachi's aptitude. Rather his ability with the basics: weapons, seals, and how he excelled beyond other 200+ Sharingan users in basic. 

After all, we saw him beat down three 3-tomoe adults in an instant. KN0 Naruto at the end of part I couldn't touch someone that had attained the 3-tomoe Sharingan for two seconds.​


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 6, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Einstein was another example that came to mind, as he's a genius, but not extraordinarily gifted in terms of being a prodigy or having a naturally high aptitude, like say Tesla or Pascal.
> 
> It's "genius vs. hard work." With that said, however, I do believe those internet facts are myths, as Einstein has a high amount of misinformation circulating about him.​



It's more about what you have given to you. The smartest or most gifted person in the world could be in a village on some island and have no way to learn. Kakashi had to do all his hard work with nothing but talent while Itachi had sharingan to help with everything. And despite this at age 13 Kakashi was the highest rank besides hokage and Itachi was captain of fodders.


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 6, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> The Sharingan itself can be factored in, however, because it essentially gives any individual that obtains it an IQ of 200+ with photographic memory, insight, and replication abilities.
> 
> But I'm not factoring Tsukuyomi into my estimate of Itachi's aptitude. Rather his ability with the basics: weapons, seals, and how he excelled beyond other 200+ Sharingan users in basic.
> 
> After all, *we saw him beat down three 3-tomoe adults in an instant*. KN0 Naruto at the end of part I couldn't touch someone that had attained the 3-tomoe Sharingan for two seconds.​



And it means nothing. They are featless. Fodders. Sasuke beat 1000 ninja training with Orochimaru. That doesn't mean he can beat 1000 ninja of any kind. We know nothing about them. Asuma beat 10 chunnin level ninja in a split second with no dif. Do you think he could do that to part 1 Lee because he's a genin and doesn't have any teammates?


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 6, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> And it means nothing. They are featless. Fodders.



They had 3-tomoe Sharingan. Consider that Obito was considered a loser among the Uchiha by Kakashi, then with just a 2-tomoe Sharingan, he was saving Kakashi's butt left and right.

So take some adult elite Uchiha with the 3-tomoe Sharingan, and you can see that they wouldn't be fodder relative to kid Kakashi by any stretch of the imagination.​


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 6, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> They had 3-tomoe Sharingan. Consider that Obito was considered a loser among the Uchiha by Kakashi, then with just a 2-tomoe Sharingan, he was saving Kakashi's butt left and right.​



Consider that Obito was a named and important character. Cocky and Obnoxious Kakashi said that to Obito. Compared to him, he thought everyone was a loser. He was a gennin at age 5, chunnin at 6 and a fucking jounin at 13. As Minato said, he spent a lot of time with his Dad the white fang and held high expectations. 

He saved Kakashi once in battle because sharingan can see chakra. He saw the invisible guy. Once again, it's a cheap eye that takes no talent. However saying that fodders are good because of it is bullshit. 

Again, Asuma soloed 10 chunnin in a split second. Could he do that to part 1 Rock Lee who's a gennin? If you have any sense, the answer is no. And that tells you everything you need to know about those fodder.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 6, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Well, he was Itachi's superior in the Anbu for quite some time. He was chunin/jonin long before Itachi. And he outsmarted Itachi in his fight with Naruto. I'd say the only clear advantage Itachi has ever had over Kakashi is the Mangekyo. They're more or less even in base stats. Which is what this fight is. I'd argue that Kakashi has the upper hand in intellgence, ninjutsu, and taijustu. They're about even when it comes to speed, strength, and stamina. And Itachi has the upper hand in genjutsu.
> 
> If you think that Kakashi doesn't even stand a _chance_ when both their Mangekyo are restricted... I'd call that a bias.



Well others adressed this post before I did, but I still can cover a few things.

I'd say the only *decisive* advantage Itachi had over Kakashi is Mangekyou and Genjutsu. Although he is still statistically(and has better feats) faster and has better taijutsu display. We shouldn't forget that he is also superior in weapon(projectiles) usage which Itachi made use of in every fight.

Kakashi has ninjutsu diversity and thats about it, which imo doesn't allow Kakashi to edge out Itachi when everything else is considered. 


As for intelligence, Kakashi didn't outsmart Itachi. He "tricked" a shouten clone, who wasn't even serious about the engagement, and executed a plan with the help of his team m8s. 
I'd rate their intelligence around the same level, with Itachi having a clear edge with his superior insight and knowledge.

edit : 



IchLiebe said:


> I started talking around 1 year old, Einstein didn't talk until he was 4. I'm fucking stupid compared to him. I saw a thing that said he couldn't read till he was 9, I was reading at 6. Again, I'm no where near as smart or gifted as him.



That kinda destroys your own argument, which is basically saying that Kakashi made it to jounin @ a younger age than Itachi.

Also Itachi, at the age of 13 could just send a Sannin running tail between his legs, even mock him to his face.
Kakashi at the age of 26 was loading his pants because of the sole presence of that very same sannin.


The talent/genius/skill gap between the two is pretty immense. It has always been that way.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Sep 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am not sure whats the challange here. Itachi is superior to Kakashi(bar rikodou powerups). He wins all scenarios.


Barring Susano'o, I'd say they are dead even.


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Well others adressed this post before I did, but I still can cover a few things.
> 
> I'd say the only *decisive* advantage Itachi had over Kakashi is Mangekyou and Genjutsu. Although he is still statistically(and has better feats) faster and has better taijutsu display. We shouldn't forget that he is also superior in weapon(projectiles) usage which Itachi made use of in every fight.



Kakashi has actually used more than kunai's and shurikens. He made use of wire, chains, caltrops, and much more. He beats him in weapon usage, not to mention he has raiton flow. Kakashi has better feats in taijutsu and speed. He reacted to Kaguya.



> Kakashi has ninjutsu diversity and thats about it, which imo doesn't allow Kakashi to edge out Itachi when everything else is considered.



Diversity, advantage as doton>suiton and suiton>katon, and everything else. 



> As for intelligence, Kakashi didn't outsmart Itachi. He "tricked" a shouten clone, who wasn't even serious about the engagement, and executed a plan with the help of his team m8s.
> I'd rate their intelligence around the same level, with Itachi having a clear edge with his superior insight and knowledge.



He TRICKED Itachi, no "". He tricked him.



> edit :
> That kinda destroys your own argument, which is basically saying that Kakashi made it to jounin @ a younger age than Itachi.
> 
> Also Itachi, at the age of 13 could just send a Sannin running tail between his legs, even mock him to his face.
> ...



The thing is Kakashi did it without sharingan while Itachi didn't. Itachi has no accomplishments without his sharingan. 

Also Itachi, at the age of 13 had boo-hoo MS powers which are crazy powerful. Take no skill, no talent, and doesn't require you to be a genius.

Kakashi at the age of 26 IS STILL ALIVE. That sole accomplishment shits on Itachi.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 6, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Itachi was literary born with built-in Kage-lvl jutsu. Not just potential to to use advanced jutsu. Actual jutsu. I don't like to belittle his personal achievements with those eyes but having techniques of that level literally imprinted in your body isn't about being genius or being gifted(when we are talking about talent obviously).



That's not fair though. Everyone with a Kekkai Genkai has to work to be good at what they do. Itachi has shown the best 3 tomoe use. Itachi was obviously a genius mastering the 3 tomoe at such a young age, and awakening MS at 13. Itachi's genius was highlighted by the genis sasuke himself being in his shadow, Itachi beating 3 Uchiha elders, and his ability to kill the clan.

Kakashi, Minato, Tobirama come to mind when I hear genius. Minato, Shikamaru, Kimmimaro, Sasuke can be thrown in.


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 6, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> That's not fair though. Everyone with a Kekkai Genkai has to work to be good at what they do. Itachi has shown the best 3 tomoe use. Itachi was obviously a genius mastering the 3 tomoe at such a young age, and awakening MS at 13. Itachi's genius was highlighted by the genis sasuke himself being in his shadow, Itachi beating 3 Uchiha elders, and his ability to kill the clan.
> 
> Kakashi, Minato, Tobirama come to mind when I hear genius. Minato, Shikamaru, Kimmimaro, Sasuke can be thrown in.



They have to train theirs. Sasuke instantly could use sharingan when he got it. When he got 3 tomoe, he instantly could use it perfectly. Kakashi, a non Uchiha, could use it when it was first implanted. I don't know where you get Itachi has the best 3 tomoe use. Kakashi is the one who copied 1000 ninjutsu, copied taijutsu, and knocked people out with genjutsu (something Itachi has only done with MS, Kakashi did it with 3 tomoe on two people and instantly knocked them out).

Sasuke wasn't a genius really. He was good, better than everyone in his class but that's not saying much. Sakura had better chakra control, Shikamaru was smarter. He was just better overall. It wasn't until he got sharingan that his genius started to shine and I wonder why that is .


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 6, 2014)

> IchLiebe said:
> 
> 
> > They have to train theirs. Sasuke instantly could use sharingan when he got it. When he got 3 tomoe, he instantly could use it perfectly.
> ...


----------



## Semiotic Sacrilege (Sep 7, 2014)

I'm not gonna get into *all* this right now. But there's a few things I'd like to address.

Itachi has NOT shown more feats in Taijutsu or Ninjutsu at all. Kakashi VS. Kakuzu AND Hidan alone is a more impressive feat than anything we've seen Itachi do. Not to mention Kakashi Vs. Obito, Kakashi Vs. The Seven Swordsmen, and even Kakashi Vs. Zabuza. I don't know how anyone could think Itachi has displayed more skill in Taijutsu. He's certainly no slouch, but we've barely seen him get his hands dirty. 

Kakashi also has way more Ninjustu feats & hype. Now, this isn't exactly fair because Kakashi has also gotten more panel time than Itachi. But there's not much evidence in Itachi's favor regardless. As for intelligence, both are extremely gifted. But Kakashi is simply a better tactician. He's shown this in practically every fight he's in. He's not only smart, but he thinks fast and always three steps ahead. He proved that he outclassed Itachi in this regard in their fight against his clone. Kakashi also figured out Obito's weakness, something Itachi failed to do (but attempted when he implanted that Amaterasu in Sasuke).

Also, the only reason Itachi "beat" Orochimaru is because of the Mangekyo. Without it he wouldn't have stood any better of a chance than Kakashi.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 7, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Itachi has NOT shown more feats in Taijutsu or Ninjutsu at all.


Kakashi stomped Hebi Sauce, fended off 3 Uchiha Jonin, defended himself from Killbee/Naruto at close range, and defended/dodged Killer Bee's seven sword dance. Plus his ability to press Sage Kabuto with a sword and defend from his scalpel.



> Kakashi VS. Kakuzu AND Hidan alone is a more impressive feat than anything we've seen Itachi do. Not to mention Kakashi Vs. Obito, Kakashi Vs. The Seven Swordsmen, and even Kakashi Vs. Zabuza. I don't know how anyone could think Itachi has displayed more skill in Taijutsu. He's certainly no slouch, but we've barely seen him get his hands dirty.


See above.

[/QUOTE] As for intelligence, both are extremely gifted. But Kakashi is simply a better tactician. He's shown this in practically every fight he's in. He's not only smart, but he thinks fast and always three steps ahead. He proved that he outclassed Itachi in this regard in their fight against his clone.[/QUOTE] 
Kakashi emplys better strategy but Itachi effortlessly analyzes and counters things better. He was able to analyze and counter Pain Paths on the fly, beat Kabuto in a chess game, and generally as never really been threatened in a a fair fight for exactly those reasons.



> Kakashi also figured out Obito's weakness, something Itachi failed to do (but attempted when he implanted that Amaterasu in Sasuke).


Kakashi figured it out by fighting him with Gai and KCM/BM Naruto's help. Itachi never fought Obito, yet was still smart enough to press him after death which Obito survived just barely.



> Also, the only reason Itachi "beat" Orochimaru is because of the Mangekyo. Without it he wouldn't have stood any better of a chance than Kakashi.


So you don't read the manga? Itachi used a 3 tomoe genjutsu to bind Oro. When Itachi is using MS genjutsu it's called Tsukuyomi, and his MS is clearly active. 
Itachi clearly has 3 tomoe in that scene


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 7, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Kakashi has actually used more than kunai's and shurikens. He made use of wire, chains, caltrops, and much more. He beats him in weapon usage,


Using more variety of weapons doesn't make someone better. Then Tenten beats everyone 

Itachi made better use of Kunai and Shurikens, and has shown better precision with them, to the degree that Kakashi could never dream of.
So no, Kakashi isn't even close.



> not to mention he has raiton flow. Kakashi has better feats in taijutsu and speed. He reacted to Kaguya.


Raiton flow is ninjutsu, and Kakashi doesn't have better feats in taijutsu(no idea where you got that from) or speed. And reacting to kaguya proves he is faster than Itachi how ? And didn't he have asspull rikodou powers @ that point ? 



> Diversity, advantage as doton>suiton and suiton>katon, and everything else.


I agree that Kakashi has more diversity and edge in ninjutsu. I just said it isn't enough.



> He TRICKED Itachi, no "". He tricked him.


Tricking someone doesn't mean you are smarter, especially under circumstances like those.



> The thing is Kakashi did it without sharingan while Itachi didn't. Itachi has no accomplishments without his sharingan.


Itachi was considered the best student academy has ever seen, and thats without the sharingan.
Also it is a shitty argument, Itachi is a natural born Uchiha, he awakened sharingan and mastered it @the age of 8. You can't hate him for his bloodline limit.

Kakashi @ the age of 13, without a sharingan was struggling against regular rock jounins.
Itachi was taijutsu blitzing 3 tomoe uchiha's when he was @ that age. 
Gap is huge. Like, really huge. Kakashi and Itachi were always miles apart, when you look their growth on age basis. 



> Also Itachi, at the age of 13 had boo-hoo MS powers which are crazy powerful. Take no skill, no talent, and doesn't require you to be a genius.


Irrelevant as Itachi defeated Orochimaru with genjutsu and a Kunai.



> Kakashi at the age of 26 IS STILL ALIVE. That sole accomplishment shits on Itachi.



When Kakashi was 26, Itachi was 18 and was still alive as well. 

Kakashi suffered more defeats than anyone else in the manga, how is that for an accomplishment ? 



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> I'm not gonna get into *all* this right now. But there's a few things I'd like to address.
> 
> Itachi has NOT shown more feats in Taijutsu or Ninjutsu at all. Kakashi VS. Kakuzu AND Hidan alone is a more impressive feat than anything we've seen Itachi do.



Stopped reading here. 

Then you should take a look @ his moves against Hebi Sasuke and KCM Naruto & B. They are all opponents much stronger than Kakuzu or Hidan.

No one is saying Kakashi is bad @ taijutsu, its just that Itachi edges him out with superior feats.
Hell, take a look @ their engagement in the shouten battle. Itachi manhandled Kakashi in taijutsu pretty quick.


----------



## Bonly (Sep 7, 2014)

"Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread

Bonly, *Turin Turambar*"

Lol people and their dupes. Anyway Itachi at his best would be Edo Itachi and Kakashi in base lacks a sealing jutsu to put down Edo Itachi for good so Itachi would win by default.  

As for Healthy Itachi vs Kakashi, Kakashi can deal with Itachi's elemental jutsu. Kakashi has Suitons to deal with Itachi's Katons. Itachi can just copy Kakashi Suitons(since Itachi can use Suitons as well) and use it to cancel Kakashi's Suiton if Kakashi uses them. Kakashi also as Dotons such as Moguragakure and Doryūheki to help counter Itachi's Sutions. Kakashi already knows to avoid eye contact with Itachi and had a short fight without looking into Itachi''s eyes successfully so Kakashi will try hard to not fall for any genjutsu that Itachi throws at him via the Sharingan. Kakashi has already avoided one of Itachi's clone feints as well as react quickly against an exploding clone from Itachi. With Kakashi's increase in speed+stamina overtime and Kakashi only getting tactically better and already dealing with Itachi's moves, Kakashi can match up to base Itachi while in base for the most part overall wise. With that said while Kakashi has a deadly and versatile ninjutsu moveset, Itachi holds the advantage in jutsu speed and with his set ups Itachi can do, it may lead to Itachi landing a hit he might not have before hand. Crows clouding Kakashi's LoS can lead to Kakashi getting genjutsu which in the short time it takes Kakashi to break out Itachi can take advantage of it and bring out some clones, maybe land a deadly blow(depending on the distance), as we saw with B Itachi used a Katon to blow B's LoS which allowed him to get behind him or when he used a genjutsu followed by a Katon right after words taking advantage of the short time B was under the genjutsu,  ect. So to me this is a question of who can trick who the best with their set ups to land the deadly blow which could go either way imo


----------



## Santoryu (Sep 7, 2014)

Itachi being better than Kakashi with kunai's is a myth. You could say they're comparable. Kakashi held off V2 Jinjuriki, Hidan, and Zabuza with a kunai despite the latter two wielding superior weapons.


A one eyed Sharingan Kakashi (the one that beat Obito) is more than enough to defeat Itachi, albeit with difficulty. They are comparable in physical abilities; one could argue Itachi's genjutsu-prowess is superior but the Copy ninja has developed counters to that and his own resistance to genjutsu has exponentially improved. Kakashi has the elemental advantage too, his Suiton cancels out Itachi's signature Katon due to the elemental cycle. Itachi obviously has his Manygeko-Sharingan abilities, but Kamui alone is more efficient than any of them, both offensively and defensively. And I think the manga recently solidified the fact that Kakashi is the best in-battle tactician in the series. 


 Kakashi at the height of his powers would utterly-destroy any version of Itachi.


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Using more variety of weapons doesn't make someone better. Then Tenten beats everyone
> 
> Itachi made better use of Kunai and Shurikens, and has shown better precision with them, to the degree that Kakashi could never dream of.
> So no, Kakashi isn't even close.



Quality and quantity>>>Quality. Itachi hasn't shown this great amazing shit everyone hypes him with. He always hit non moving targets.



> Raiton flow is ninjutsu, and Kakashi doesn't have better feats in taijutsu(no idea where you got that from) or speed. And reacting to kaguya proves he is faster than Itachi how ? And didn't he have asspull rikodou powers @ that point ?



Not here. And he was slower due to the gravity dimension. Not to mention him combo'ing with 8th gate Gai. Having the same reactions as KCM Minato.



> I agree that Kakashi has more diversity and edge in ninjutsu. I just said it isn't enough.



Except it is. There's nothing Itachi can do in speed, taijutsu, ninjutsu, nor genjutsu. AND Kakashi's smarter and has tricked him twice already.



> Tricking someone doesn't mean you are smarter, especially under circumstances like those.



Everyone knows Kakashi's tactic, and Itachi still fell for it.



> Itachi was considered the best student academy has ever seen, and thats without the sharingan.
> Also it is a shitty argument, Itachi is a natural born Uchiha, he awakened sharingan and mastered it @the age of 8. You can't hate him for his bloodline limit.



Best student means shit. Shikamaru was considered a Naruto level student and look how that went. 

I'm not hating him for his bloodline limit. I'm saying he never accomplished anything without it and that's valid when talking about skill and talent when his is a major boost in those. At the same age as Kakashi became a jounin, Itachi wasn't able to. Kakashi learned rasengan and created chidori. Itachi had nothing then to prove he was on the level on Kakashi in the genuis department.



> Kakashi @ the age of 13, without a sharingan was struggling against regular rock jounins.
> Itachi was taijutsu blitzing 3 tomoe uchiha's when he was @ that age.
> Gap is huge. Like, really huge. Kakashi and Itachi were always miles apart, when you look their growth on age basis.



Blitzing 3 tomoe FODDER. We don't even know their rank. They were probably chunnin. Could've been fucking gennin. We don't know. We know Kakashi fought jounin. Kakashi was a jounin. Itachi was a chunnin who was in ANBU (again a fodder group who have never showed anything) who beat no jounin on record till he got MS. Again, no talent there.



> Irrelevant as Itachi defeated Orochimaru with genjutsu and a Kunai.



Orochimaru had KN4 cut him in half. If you think the fight ended there, your stupid.



> When Kakashi was 26, Itachi was 18 and was still alive as well.



Who's alive right now? Hint, it's not Itachi.



> Kakashi suffered more defeats than anyone else in the manga, how is that for an accomplishment ?



Yeah, everyone knows Uchiha's are the best at running away from fights. Kakashi helped(and by help I mean without him they wouldn't have) defeat Kaguya. Does Itachi got shit on that? How about beating Obito? Itachi got anything close to that. And by the way he beat Obito 1v1.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 7, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Quality and quantity>>>Quality. Itachi hasn't shown this great amazing shit everyone hypes him with. He always hit non moving targets.


How did quality become a part of the equation ? You were only mentioning quantity. 

I am not going to bother posting Itachi's kunai feats, because I am very well aware that you've read those parts of the manga, so please, if you think Kakashi has better, go ahead and post them. Otherwise, drop it.
Pretty sure even Turrin'd disagree with you here. Which translates into "Itachi wins by a motherfucking landslide."




> Not here. And he was slower due to the gravity dimension. Not to mention him


How does gravity slow down his reflexes ? 



> combo'ing with 8th gate Gai. Having the same reactions as KCM Minato.



Off combat feat, that means Lee and Gaara had the same reactions too.




> Except it is. There's nothing Itachi can do in speed, taijutsu, ninjutsu, nor genjutsu. AND Kakashi's smarter and has tricked him twice already.


Itachi has better speed feats, better taijutsu feats and better genjutsu feats.
Itachi has fought smarter opponents and defeated them, and Kakashi only tricked shouten Itachi.




> Everyone knows Kakashi's tactic, and Itachi still fell for it.


Bunshin feint by no means indicate how smart someone is. If thats the case,  then Naruto is the smartest shinobi in the manga.




> Best student means shit. Shikamaru was considered a Naruto level student and look how that went.


I know how it went, he is still chuunin level.




> I'm not hating him for his bloodline limit. I'm saying he never accomplished anything without it and that's valid when talking about skill and talent when his is a major boost in those. At the same age as Kakashi became a jounin, Itachi wasn't able to. Kakashi learned rasengan and created chidori. Itachi had nothing then to prove he was on the level on Kakashi in the genuis department.


Itachi's eyes are a part of his body, an inborn ability. Itachi's shinobi career started @ 7 and he activated and mastered sharingan by the age of 8.
So yes, there is nothing valid about what you are trying to say here.

Kakashi without sharingan was about to lose to Zabuza. He is pretty much fodder without it.
Not sure what you are trying to prove.



> Blitzing 3 tomoe FODDER. We don't even know their rank. They were probably chunnin. Could've been fucking gennin. We don't know. We know Kakashi fought jounin. Kakashi was a jounin. Itachi was a chunnin who was in ANBU (again a fodder group who have never showed anything) who beat no jounin on record till he got MS. Again, no talent there.


Obito was a fucking chuunin too, and right after he awakened 2 tomoe he killed a jounin.
I am pretty sure 3 tomoe Uchiha adults who were in the police force were stronger than Obito.

Also aren't you cute whining about Itachi's MS requiring no talent. At least he didn't recieve 2 magical eyes out of thin air that granted him power beyond his reach, as a fucking adult.




> Orochimaru had KN4 cut him in half. If you think the fight ended there, your stupid.



Unless you have evidence that it didn't, you are full of shit. Oh wait, you are.

Also a couple of manga lessons for you. First off, Orochimaru can only re-attach his torso, because of his white snake form, which doesn't have arms or legs. You can confirm this by reading Kn3 vs Oro, he had to use oral rebirth after he lost his arm. He didn't casually regrow it or reattach it.

Second off, when someone is paralyzed with genjutsu, they can't utilize chakra and use techniques. If you take notice, Orochimaru was trying to dispel the genjutsu and Itachi didn't let him, cut his hand off before he could. Orochimaru wasn't able to utilize chakra, thus he wasn't able to use a kawarimi or any technique that'd prevent him from losing his hand

The point of that encounter is to show that Itachi was superior to Orochimaru, which it does. Orochimaru was at Itachi's mercy, and Itachi could have easily gone for his head, but he didn't. 

And you are welcome, giving you this information for free 



> Who's alive right now? Hint, it's not Itachi.


Thanks to tons of other people.
Hell, if it wasn't for two genins, he'd drown in Zabuza's water prison.



> Yeah, everyone knows Uchiha's are the best at running away from fights. Kakashi helped(and by help I mean without him they wouldn't have) defeat Kaguya. Does Itachi got shit on that? How about beating Obito? Itachi got anything close to that. And by the way he beat Obito 1v1.



Kakashi had nothing to do with Obito's defeat, and if it wasn't for Obito's "lol I am back from heaven handing free power ups" moment, Kakashi would still be on his knees reminding himself how useless he was compared to Sakura. Fucking Sakura of all people.
I am glad my favorite character didn't have to compare himself to Sakura at any point in the manga, or I'd kill myself.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 7, 2014)

Santoryu said:


> Itachi being better than Kakashi with kunai's is a myth. You could say they're comparable. Kakashi held off V2 Jinjuriki, Hidan, and Zabuza with a kunai despite the latter two wielding superior weapons.



Itachi held off Bee's 8 swords, which is better, and actually has feats and hype involved with throwing kunai, which is their primary utility. Itachi is very clearly superior with weapons.​


Santoryu said:


> A one eyed Sharingan Kakashi (the one that beat Obito) is more than enough to defeat Itachi, albeit with difficulty. They are comparable in physical abilities; one could argue Itachi's genjutsu-prowess is superior



One doesn't need to _argue_ that...​


Santoryu said:


> And I think the manga recently solidified the fact that Kakashi is the best in-battle tactician in the series.



Solidified how? We've seen how Itachi and Kakashi analyzed and respectively handled Rinnegan shared vision, and that's what they can fairly be compared on.​


----------



## Trojan (Sep 7, 2014)

it's really hilarious that in one thread Kakashi solos both Hashirama and Madara in 1 minute, and in this thread
he loses to itachi, or there IS a debate for him losing to itachi! 

I guess itachi is also way stronger than Hashirama and Madara after all. 

(Not as if I ever believed that DMS Kakashi is stronger than them, but just saying. )


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> How did quality become a part of the equation ? You were only mentioning quantity.
> 
> I am not going to bother posting Itachi's kunai feats, because I am very well aware that you've read those parts of the manga, so please, if you think Kakashi has better, go ahead and post them. Otherwise, drop it.
> Pretty sure even Turrin'd disagree with you here. Which translates into "Itachi wins by a motherfucking landslide."



Again, Itachi has only hit non moving targets. Kakashi has more than just kunai and shuriken and has utilized them in combat. Tenten has 1000 different kunai's. Kakashi has ninja wire, chains, caltrop, and whatever he needs in any situation. Lets get real, no ninja has died from a thrown kunai. There's a reason. It's easy as hell to dodge.



> How does gravity slow down his reflexes ?



Slows down his speed. He had to cross one hell of a distance to get there.



> Off combat feat, that means Lee and Gaara had the same reactions too.



friend, IT WAS DURING COMBAT. WE SAW THE WHOLE THING. .



> Itachi has better speed feats, better taijutsu feats and better genjutsu feats.
> Itachi has fought smarter opponents and defeated them, and Kakashi only tricked shouten Itachi.



Post Itachi keeping pace with Uchiha Obito, beating someone who's as good as Obito in Taijutsu, and knocking someone out with base genjutsu. That's Kakashi's feats, and Itachi doesn't come close. 

Itachi noticed Kakashi here. There wouldn't have been a reason for him to notice him if he knew he was there.



> Bunshin feint by no means indicate how smart someone is. If thats the case,  then Naruto is the smartest shinobi in the manga.



I'm not using it to say he's the smartest. I'm saying he can trick Itachi. Although he is smarter, gennin before Itachi, chunnin before Itachi (before Itachi even became a gennin if I remember. Kakashi was chunnin at 6 and Itachi became a genin at 7 or 8), and a jounin at 13 where Itachi went to fodder ANBU club.



> I know how it went, he is still chuunin level.



. Shikamaru was one of the worse students there and he has an IQ of over 200.



> Itachi's eyes are a part of his body, an inborn ability. Itachi's shinobi career started @ 7 and he activated and mastered sharingan by the age of 8.
> So yes, there is nothing valid about what you are trying to say here.
> 
> Kakashi without sharingan was about to lose to Zabuza. He is pretty much fodder without it.
> Not sure what you are trying to prove.



Kakashi was also bad out of shape and even said so. Let Itachi not fight for years and see how it goes.



> Obito was a fucking chuunin too, and right after he awakened 2 tomoe he killed a jounin.
> I am pretty sure 3 tomoe Uchiha adults who were in the police force were stronger than Obito.



Didn't the guy only get hit because he thought Obito couldn't see him? And Obito is a named character. He's not a fodder like those 3 tomoe Uchiha.




> Also aren't you cute whining about Itachi's MS requiring no talent. At least he didn't recieve 2 magical eyes out of thin air that granted him power beyond his reach, as a fucking adult.



Not my fault Kakashi's got connections.




> Unless you have evidence that it didn't, you are full of shit. Oh wait, you are.
> 
> Also a couple of manga lessons for you. First off, Orochimaru can only re-attach his torso, because of his white snake form, which doesn't have arms or legs. You can confirm this by reading Kn3 vs Oro, he had to use oral rebirth after he lost his arm. He didn't casually regrow it or reattach it.
> 
> ...



First off, Itachi just let Orochimaru go. A threat to the village and he just let him go. NO.

Second off, You know Orochimaru could oral rebirth there.

Third off, If Itachi didn't beat real body Orochimaru then he didn't beat him.



> Thanks to tons of other people.
> Hell, if it wasn't for two genins, he'd drown in Zabuza's water prison.



You mean the saviors of the world. The only reason Itachi lived through the Uchiha massacre was because of Hiruzen. 



> Kakashi had nothing to do with Obito's defeat, and if it wasn't for Obito's "lol I am back from heaven handing free power ups" moment, Kakashi would still be on his knees reminding himself how useless he was compared to Sakura. Fucking Sakura of all people.
> I am glad my favorite character didn't have to compare himself to Sakura at any point in the manga, or I'd kill myself.



I'm not talking Juubito. I'm talking Obito. Kakashi put a fucking raikiri through him after defeating him in taijutsu.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Sep 7, 2014)

Hussain said:


> it's really hilarious that in one thread Kakashi solos both Hashirama and Madara in 1 minute, and in this thread
> he loses to itachi, or there IS a debate for him losing to itachi!
> 
> I guess itachi is also way stronger than Hashirama and Madara after all.
> ...


Peak Kakashi (vs. Kaguya) would solo Itachi, they just made stipulations to limit his ability in order to give Itachi a fighting chance. Personally, I've seen them as equals since the start of Part 2, with Itachi having an advantage (if only, with Susano'o) up until the last few chapters. However, I think if Kakashi has the ability to phase through things, I'd say he'd have the advantage.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 9, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Again, Itachi has only hit non moving targets


That means what exactly ? 
Come back when Kakashi manages to alter his weapons trajectories in mid air to hit targets he can't see or throw kunai with such angle that it even bypasses the Rinnegan's field of vision.



> . Kakashi has more than just kunai and shuriken and has utilized them in combat.


Not as effectively. Thats the whole point. Never mind the fact that he has literally 0 hype regarding weapons while Itachi was praised on more than one occasion and has shown outstanding feats with them.


> Tenten has 1000 different kunai's. Kakashi has ninja wire, chains, caltrop, and whatever he needs in any situation. Lets get real, no ninja has died from a thrown kunai. There's a reason. It's easy as hell to dodge.


Irrelevant.



> Slows down his speed. He had to cross one hell of a distance to get there.


That was plot, rin's ghost pulled them. 
Or are you trying to suggest that Kakashi & Obito are faster/more powerful than Naruto, Sasuke or Kaguya ? 



> friend, IT WAS DURING COMBAT. WE SAW THE WHOLE THING. .


No friend. Gaara, Kakashi, Lee and Minato weren't fighting. They INTERCEPTED when Gai was fighting Madara. Big motherfucking difference. Learn the basics.

And if that proves that Kakashi has reactions on par with KCM Minato, then it proves that Gaara  and Lee also have on par reactions with KCM Minato.




> Post Itachi keeping pace with Uchiha Obito, beating someone who's as good as Obito in Taijutsu, and knocking someone out with base genjutsu. That's Kakashi's feats, and Itachi doesn't come close.


Uchiha Obito is fodder without Kamui.
Who did Kakashi knock out with base genjutsu ? 




> Itachi noticed Kakashi here. There wouldn't have been a reason for him to notice him if he knew he was there.



What ? Itachi has shown no surprise when he dispersed the bunshin, and pulling a bunshin didn't give Kakashi any strategic advantage there. Also the one who noticed Kakashi underwater was Itachi's bunshin, not Itachi himself. Itachi came out on top in that encounter. You don't know what the fuck you are talking about. 




> I'm not using it to say he's the smartest. I'm saying he can trick Itachi.


He can trick a massively restricted non serious Itachi, I'll give you that.




> Although he is smarter, gennin before Itachi, chunnin before Itachi (before Itachi even became a gennin if I remember.


This has nothing to do with smarts.
Guys like Yamato and Gai also became chuunin before Itachi did.

@ the time of war, people were getting promted quickly to assist in the battlefield.




> Kakashi was chunnin at 6 and Itachi became a genin at 7 or 8), and a jounin at 13 where Itachi went to fodder ANBU club.


And yet Itachi @ 13 was eating Sannin for breakfast while 26 year old Kakashi's initial reaction in a confrontation against a sannin was to load his pants.

So unless you think Kakashi got weaker in time, then 13 year old Itachi was much much much stronger than 13 year old Kakashi.



> . Shikamaru was one of the worse students there and he has an IQ of over 200.


And thats all he has. Shikamaru is a great strategist, not a great shinobi.





> Kakashi was also bad out of shape and even said so. Let Itachi not fight for years and see how it goes.


He still wouldn't lose to Zabuza 




> Didn't the guy only get hit because he thought Obito couldn't see him? And Obito is a named character. He's not a fodder like those 3 tomoe Uchiha.


Those characters have names. And they have a better sharingan than Obito.





> Not my fault Kakashi's got connections.


I glad you are starting to see that Kakashi is shit without others 



> First off, Itachi just let Orochimaru go. A threat to the village and he just let him go. NO.


How was Itachi supposed to know about Orochimaru's plans of destroying the village ? 
And yes, he either let Oro go, or Orochimaru escaped. They are basically the same thing.




> Second off, You know Orochimaru could oral rebirth there.


Oral rebirth is a kawarimi, you have to use it inconjunction with an attack.
Kawarimi can't be used after the damage is done, it beats the purpose of the jutsu.




> Third off, If Itachi didn't beat real body Orochimaru then he didn't beat him.


What the hell does this mean ? 




> You mean the saviors of the world. The only reason Itachi lived through the Uchiha massacre was because of Hiruzen.


Or because Itachi was the one doing the massacre and decided not to kill himself 



> I'm not talking Juubito. I'm talking Obito. Kakashi put a fucking raikiri through him after defeating him in taijutsu.


Obito without Kamui is fodder and on top of that he wasn't using any ninjutsu against Kakashi.

And oh, didn't obito admit that he let Kakashi stab him in the chest to get rid of Madara's seal ?


----------



## Turrin (Sep 9, 2014)

For the life of me I do not understand how this issue is so debated in this thread. Are people forgetting that even w/o MS Kakashi has Hagoromo's chakra.

Kakashi w/ SO6P chakra was reacting to attacks from Kaguya, so how in the world is Itachi's speed or taijutsu even going to be remotely an issue here. Kakashi would dance circles around Itachi, while wielding SO6P-Senjutsu-Kurokaminari Raitons that were able to damage the sentient god that is Kaguya. Itachi can't do anything against that, except die a horrible death.

Give Itachi MS, and Kakashi would still win w/o  much difficulty. With Hagoromo's chakra Kakashi is in a completely different stratosphere than Itachi.


----------



## Santoryu (Sep 9, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi held off Bee's 8 swords, which is better, and actually has feats and hype involved with throwing kunai, which is their primary utility. Itachi is very clearly superior with weapons.​



Actually, you're right; Itachi's feats are better in this regard. I concede. To say he's better with weapons altogether though? Kakashi picked up Zabuza's blade (a blade that's rather heavy as it gave Suigetsu trouble) and used it rather efficiently; taking out Kisame's former master in the process. 






> Solidified how? We've seen how Itachi and Kakashi analyzed and respectively handled Rinnegan shared vision, and that's what they can fairly be compared on./indent


Kakashi has outsmarted Itachi in battle before. I'm not saying they're worlds apart, but in this war  Kakashi's tactics and analytical abilities were praised multiple times-to the point that Gai noted he was the best analyst in the manga. Rikkudo Sennin's comments were just the icing on the cake.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 9, 2014)

Kakashi is better at setting up tactics like a strategist (think Kakashi and Akimichi vs Deva), while Itachi is more analytical and decisive (think countering to Hagueki and Mukai Tensei on a dime). 

Kakashi didn't really trick Itachi. Itachi's mission was to waste time. Where as Kisame was actually trying to kill Team 10, it was clear Itachi was just doing his job and lesiurely fighting the squad with 30% power. Hence why when Naruto rasengan's Itachi you have Itachi getting the "last laugh".


----------



## Santoryu (Sep 9, 2014)

> while Itachi is more analytical and decisive (think countering to Hagueki and Mukai Tensei on a dime).


[/B]
I could say "think Kakashi and co vs Obito".




> Kakashi didn't really trick Itachi. Itachi's mission was to waste time. Where as Kisame was actually trying to kill Team 10



This argument is tenuous, considering Itachi uses this from the get go. 

,





> it was clear Itachi was just doing his job and lesiurely fighting the squad with 30% power. Hence why when Naruto rasengan's Itachi you have Itachi getting the "last laugh".




The 30% chakra had no effect on Itachi's *intelligence and tactical skills*. Itachi *himself stated* that he did not notice until it was already too late. Kakashi was able to capture Itachi, and make him wide open for an attack.

Oh, and he even attempted genjutsu on a bunshin.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 9, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Kakashi is better at setting up tactics like a strategist (think Kakashi and Akimichi vs Deva), while Itachi is more analytical and decisive (think countering to Hagueki and Mukai Tensei on a dime).


Sasuke figured out how to counter Muki-Tensei. Itachi did not figure out how to counter Haguki he just muscled through it due to WOF and Edo-Buffs. He did know that Kabuto would likely target Sasuke because of his Orochimaru ambitions, but we quickly saw the limit to that style of planning when Itachi got hit by Muki-Tensei because of it. 

Kakashi is all around better than Itachi, in terms of intelligence. The guy was compared to Shikkamaru who has a 200IQ. He out smarted Itachi himself with a Bushin-Feint. Figured out Kamui, something Itachi himself failed to accomplish. Figured out the strategy necessary to defeat Kaguya. And was praised by Hagoromo himself for his insight. If your unwilling to accept Kakashi is better than Itachi in this regard than you are unwilling to accept anyone is. 



> Kakashi didn't really trick Itachi. Itachi's mission was to waste time. Where as Kisame was actually trying to kill Team 10, it was clear Itachi was just doing his job and lesiurely fighting the squad with 30% power. Hence why when Naruto rasengan's Itachi you have Itachi getting the "last laugh".


Yes he did trick Itachi. Itachi thought he caught the real Kakashi, but Kakashi was one step ahead of him, and he actually caught Itachi with his Bushin. That's literally the definition of a trick.


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 9, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That means what exactly ?
> Come back when Kakashi manages to alter his weapons trajectories in mid air to hit targets he can't see or throw kunai with such angle that it even bypasses the Rinnegan's field of vision.



Can't see but knows they're there. Here's the thing, He's never hit anything that was moving. The rinnegan's field of vision where he was out of it. Kabuto was paying him no attention. It was perfectly set up for him. If you think weapons do anything here then you underestimate Kakashi so much it's fucking laughable. At best it's even. Kakashi not only has the arsenal but the skill.



> Not as effectively. Thats the whole point. Never mind the fact that he has literally 0 hype regarding weapons while Itachi was praised on more than one occasion and has shown outstanding feats with them.



When was he praised? His "outstanding" feats are on non moving targets. I can throw a rock and hit a tree, I must be a major league baseball player.



> Irrelevant.



It's not.



> That was plot, rin's ghost pulled them.
> Or are you trying to suggest that Kakashi & Obito are faster/more powerful than Naruto, Sasuke or Kaguya ?



Plot's the reason Itachi hit his targets.
Not suggesting.



> No friend. Gaara, Kakashi, Lee and Minato weren't fighting. They INTERCEPTED when Gai was fighting Madara. Big motherfucking difference. Learn the basics.



They were fighting. They made a plan, they told Gai the plan. The only time you can call interception feat is when we don't know where they are and are offpanel. Here we know their starting distance and they were in the whole chapter.



> And if that proves that Kakashi has reactions on par with KCM Minato, then it proves that Gaara  and Lee also have on par reactions with KCM Minato.



Nope. Just Lee, (Gaara had no part of that that step of the combo) and he didn't react with Minato. Minato reacted to him. He threw the kunai and Minato then hiraishin'd and did his thing. And I don't believe I even posted that to say he has reactions on par with KCM Minato so check the scan again.



> Uchiha Obito is fodder without Kamui.
> Who did Kakashi knock out with base genjutsu ?



Mokuton, Madara size katons, Reactions comparable to Minato, genjutsu, izanagi and a shit ton of other stuff.

Kakashi instantly sharingan genjutsu's TWO people and knocks them out instantaneously WITH ONE SHARINGAN. ANBU ROOT BY THE WAY. And I'm sure you know Kakashi knocked out Sakura using a base genjutsu without sharingan. 




> What ? Itachi has shown no surprise when he dispersed the bunshin, and pulling a bunshin didn't give Kakashi any strategic advantage there. Also the one who noticed Kakashi underwater was Itachi's bunshin, not Itachi himself. Itachi came out on top in that encounter. You don't know what the fuck you are talking about.



The clone would know if Itachi did. If it wasn't for Kurenai, Kakashi would've been on top there. He knew which was the bunshin and everything.



> He can trick a massively restricted non serious Itachi, I'll give you that.



And that Itachi is just as smart as any.



> This has nothing to do with smarts.
> Guys like Yamato and Gai also became chuunin before Itachi did.
> 
> @ the time of war, people were getting promted quickly to assist in the battlefield.



And yet Might Dai was a fucking gennin and knew the 8th gates. Remember the only time it was ever mentioned for someone going through ranks faster because of war was AGAINST ITACHI. By his mom no less.



> And yet Itachi @ 13 was eating Sannin for breakfast while 26 year old Kakashi's initial reaction in a confrontation against a sannin was to load his pants.
> 
> So unless you think Kakashi got weaker in time, then 13 year old Itachi was much much much stronger than 13 year old Kakashi.



It was actually stated in the manga that Kakashi got weaker so I don't know what you're talking about.



> And thats all he has. Shikamaru is a great strategist, not a great shinobi.



Yet he was promoted to chunnin before all his other classmates, including Gaara who's a kage.



> He still wouldn't lose to Zabuza



Take away MS and does. Not only that but I believe I've argued several times that Zabuza beats MS Itachi.



> Those characters have names. And they have a better sharingan than Obito.



What's their names? Don't google it or go to Narutowiki. Exactly, you don't know because they are one time appearance fodder.



> I glad you are starting to see that Kakashi is shit without others



Itachi said he was shit because he didn't have others. 

Kakashi approves teamwork=alive.
Itachi works alone=dead, hell did he even make it to 20.



> How was Itachi supposed to know about Orochimaru's plans of destroying the village ?
> And yes, he either let Oro go, or Orochimaru escaped. They are basically the same thing.



Orochimaru didn't hide it. Missing nin from Konoha=threat to Konoha and he just let him go, LOLOL. 



> Oral rebirth is a kawarimi, you have to use it inconjunction with an attack.
> Kawarimi can't be used after the damage is done, it beats the purpose of the jutsu.



I'm pretty sure they use it after they take damage to heal.



> What the hell does this mean ?



If he didn't beat Orochimaru's real body then he didn't beat him. Self explanatory.



> Or because Itachi was the one doing the massacre and decided not to kill himself



Or because Hiruzen let Itachi and didn't decide to off him with his clan.



> Obito without Kamui is fodder and on top of that he wasn't using any ninjutsu against Kakashi.
> 
> And oh, didn't obito admit that he let Kakashi stab him in the chest to get rid of Madara's seal ?



Obito used a fireball jutsu.

Didn't Obito stab Kakashi? Makes it look pretty serious.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Sep 9, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Kakashi is better at setting up tactics like a strategist (think Kakashi and Akimichi vs Deva), while Itachi is more analytical and decisive (think countering to Hagueki and Mukai Tensei on a dime).
> 
> Kakashi didn't really trick Itachi. Itachi's mission was to waste time. Where as Kisame was actually trying to kill Team 10, it was clear Itachi was just doing his job and lesiurely fighting the squad with 30% power. Hence why when Naruto rasengan's Itachi you have Itachi getting the "last laugh".


Kakashi tricked him and Itachi realized it afterwards. But he's done that against far more dangerous and stronger shinobi than Itachi as well, so it's not surprising he be able to execute a bunshin against Itachi.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 9, 2014)

Santoryu said:


> This argument is tenuous, considering Itachi uses this from the get go.



... except he didn't. There was fighting going on while Naruto was in genjutsu.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 9, 2014)

Santoryu said:


> The 30% chakra had no effect on Itachi's *intelligence and tactical skills*.



Uh, no. Of course having limited chakra and being outnumbered would affect your tactics. For instance, in every other fight, Itachi uses a bunshin himself when his opponents can't see him.

So why didn't his 30% clone do so against Kakashi like he did against Sasuke, Bee, or p1 Kakashi? Because it was a 30% clone, and he couldn't. He even said the clone was out of chakra.

And yeah, I'm tired of seeing people say that using a clone feint on an outnumbered opponent (i.e. the clone flanking Kurenai) makes you smarter. Kakashi had a heavy advantage each time.

You don't see ignorant-ass Zabuza fans claiming that Zabuza outsmarted Kakashi at every angle and that Kakashi needed Genin to bail him out, now do you? It's a shit-argument. 

If you want to compare their actual intelligence, measure it by their growth rate and feats. Itachi's growth hype and finding legendary items, creating mass genjutsu, trap seals, eye surgeries, etc. wins. 

And all that considering that you'd have to give part II Itachi another _5 years_ to develop before he could even fairly be compared to part I Kakashi in terms of how long they had to grow and invent...

Lastly, I don't even think Itachi continued training hard after his sickness kicked after p1. Give him health and a reason to get way stronger from from 18-26 and watch him shame Kakashi.​


----------



## Rocky (Sep 9, 2014)

Kakashi is a better strategist and tactician. 

Itachi is better at everything else.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Kakashi is a better strategist and tactician.
> 
> Itachi is better at everything else.


Not really. Kakashi is better at everything w/ Hagoromo's chakra. W/o Hagoromo's Chakra he is still better or equivalent at everything other than Genjutsu. Really what set Itachi apart from Kakashi is his Uchiha-Blood and nothing more.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Kakashi is a better strategist and tactician.
> 
> Itachi is better at everything else.



everything else do you like itachi having more chakra?
or the fact that itachi has more than 1000 jutsu, and better than the PS, and Kamui

or the fact that he countered Obito's Genjutsus...

...etc


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 9, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Uh, no. Of course having limited chakra and being outnumbered would affect your tactics. For instance, in every other fight, Itachi uses a bunshin himself when his opponents can't see him.
> 
> So why didn't his 30% clone do so against Kakashi like he did against Sasuke, Bee, or p1 Kakashi? Because it was a 30% clone, and he couldn't. He even said the clone was out of chakra.​




And what would the bunshin do? Kakashi still clone feinted him. The clone would just attack that while Itachi stands right there as he always does and then Kakashi still outsmarted him.



> And yeah, I'm tired of seeing people say that using a clone feint on an outnumbered opponent (i.e. the clone flanking Kurenai) makes you smarter. Kakashi had a heavy advantage each time.
> 
> You don't see ignorant-ass Zabuza fans claiming that Zabuza outsmarted Kakashi at every angle and that Kakashi needed Genin to bail him out, now do you? It's a shit-argument.



He was at a disadvantage and got hit because of protecting Kurenai.

Zabuza straight got Kakashi. He did a double bunshin feint that was genius. He just didn't do anything close to it again or people would claim that.



> If you want to compare their actual intelligence, measure it by their growth rate and feats. Itachi's growth hype and finding legendary items, creating mass genjutsu, trap seals, eye surgeries, etc. wins.



Growth rate. Kakashi was a genin at 5, Itachi at 7, chunnin at 6, Itachi at 9(or was it 8?) and a jounin at 13 while Itachi had to go to ANBU. Kakashi wins.

Finding items? I'm sure he was given them. Doubt he found them.

Where is the mass genjutsu? The hype that was never justified? How about Kakashi actually using genjutsu to knock people out while Itachi always needed MS.

Trap seals? Kakashi had sealing jutsu.

Eye surgery in a manga where Madara just rips an eye and plucks it in with no surgery.

How about kakashi knowing that byakugan was a mutation from sharingan? Knowing 3 elements. Having sharingan genjutsu and base genjutsu. Getting MS and using susanoo despite being non Uchiha. He knew about the SoT6P which Itachi has never shown knowledge on. Kakashi has shown knowledge on a lot of shit. More so than Itachi.



> And all that considering that you'd have to give part II Itachi another _5 years_ to develop before he could even fairly be compared to part I Kakashi in terms of how long they had to grow and invent...
> 
> Lastly, I don't even think Itachi continued training hard after his sickness kicked after p1. Give him health and a reason to get way stronger from from 18-26 and watch him shame Kakashi.



Kakashi growth and inventing beats Itachi at 13. 

You don't think? He just gave up even though he wanted to kill Madara Uchiha. Yeah, I don't think so.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Sep 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Not really. Kakashi is better at everything w/ Hagoromo's chakra. W/o Hagoromo's Chakra he is still better or equivalent at everything other than Genjutsu. *Really what set Itachi apart from Kakashi is his Uchiha-Blood and nothing more*.


More or less what I agreed with and the advantage Itachi had in genjutsu was to some extent mitigated by Kakashi's advantage in ninjutsu.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> W/o Hagoromo's Chakra he is still better or equivalent at everything other than Genjutsu. Really what set Itachi apart from Kakashi is his Uchiha-Blood and nothing more.



Um, I was talking about intelligence. 

Though Itachi is better at ninjutsu, genjutsu, and probably equivalent to Kakashi in taijutsu. 

Susano'o & Amaterasu > One eyed Kamui.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 21, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Um, I was talking about intelligence.
> .


Besides being a tactician and strategist what other facets of intelligence matter in the Naruto-world? Unless were including knowledge within intelligence, in which case Kakashi is better than Itachi there as well, given he's vastly more experienced, seen through more jutsu, etc....



> Though Itachi is better at ninjutsu
> Susano'o & Amaterasu > One eyed Kamui.


So were just ignoring the 1K+ Jutsu that Kakashi mastered or the fact that he had to master MS w/o Uchiha blood. Just because Itachi is magically granted certain Ninjutsu techniques for being an Uchiha doesn't make him better at Ninjutsu, it just means he has more potent techniques. Just like if someone handed Konohamaru all 7 Mist Swords, that wouldn't suddenly make him better at Kenjutsu than Zabuza, it would mean he has better swords.



> and probably equivalent to Kakashi in taijutsu.


Kakashi and Itachi have an equal score in the DB, and than Kakashi can open at least 1-Gate, so that puts him above Itachi automatically.


----------



## Semiotic Sacrilege (Sep 21, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Um, I was talking about intelligence.
> 
> Though Itachi is better at ninjutsu, genjutsu, and probably equivalent to Kakashi in taijutsu.
> 
> Susano'o & Amaterasu > One eyed Kamui.



Itachi better than Kakashi in Ninjustu?


----------



## Rocky (Sep 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Unless were including knowledge within intelligence, in which case Kakashi is better than Itachi there as well, given he's vastly more experienced, seen through more jutsu, etc....



Itachi's wisdom was compared to that of a Hokage at age _seven._



> So were just ignoring the 1K+ Jutsu that Kakashi mastered or the fact that he had to master MS w/o Uchiha blood. Just because Itachi is magically granted certain Ninjutsu techniques for being an Uchiha doesn't make him better at Ninjutsu, it just means he has more potent techniques. Just like if someone handed Konohamaru all 7 Mist Swords, that wouldn't suddenly make him better at Kenjutsu than Zabuza, it would mean he has better swords.



This actually makes no sense. Itachi wasn't handed his Mangekyou ninjutsu for being an Uchiha. Very few Uchiha in the history of fucking time have actually awakened it, and even fewer have used Susano'o. 

Having more jutsu ≠ having better jutsu. Itachi has better ninjutsu.



> Kakashi and Itachi have an equal score in the DB, and than Kakashi can open at least 1-Gate, so that puts him above Itachi automatically.



Itachi's skill with weapons recloses any gap.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Kakashi and Itachi have an equal score in the DB, and than Kakashi can open at least 1-Gate, so that puts him above Itachi automatically.



You mean equal tier. Which doesn't mean they are equal.
 Itachi has better feats. So no, Kakashi isn't above Itachi automaticaly. We've seen how Shouten Itachi manhandled Kakashi's clone casually.


----------



## Mercurial (Sep 21, 2014)

Even left eye Sharingan/Mangekyo Sharingan with Kamui space-time barrier for offense and defense + self teleporting between the dimensions or from a place to another shits on Amaterasu + Susanoo + Tsukuyomi. Tsukuyomi is avoided without making eye contact, Amaterasu is reacted and outspeeded with Kamui's offense (for fuck's sake, even base Killer Bee could throw a sword before Edo Itachi could launch Amaterasu from his eye, after he had already cried blood... just remember how Kakashi managed to Kamui an entire body in front of the eyes of Obito, who with top notch dojutsu and reflexes and full knowledge couldn't even perceive the warp thanks to Kakashi's timing and speed in his execution, how Kakashi could warp the arm of the Gedo Mazo while Madara was already summoning it at him with S/T ninjutsu, etc), Susanoo is warped away or Itachi is warped in the Susanoo, it doesn't give any special defense against Kamui, that is hyped to be uncounterable once landed (and feats agree, Kamui could warp even Juudara's Onmyoton shield that works out ninjutsu).

Kakashi with his War Arc display has also better feats in everything bar genjutsu, War Arc Kakashi mid diffs Itachi. Shippuden Kakashi wins slightly. Part 1 Kakashi ofc loses, DMS Kakashi totally shits on.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 21, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Itachi's wisdom was compared to that of a Hokage at age _seven._


And Kakashi was able to lead entire teams as a Chunin at age 6. He probably also had Hokage wisdom by age 7. Whatever wisdom counts for anyway.



> This actually makes no sense. Itachi wasn't handed his Mangekyou ninjutsu for being an Uchiha. Very few Uchiha in the history of fucking time have actually awakened it, and even fewer have used Susano'o.


We literally saw how MS works through Sasuke, and it was powered by emotional responses not gaining skill in Ninjutsu. And yes Itachi's awakening of MS basically amounts to Shisui handing it to him by committing suicide in front of him.



> Having more jutsu ≠ having better jutsu. Itachi has better ninjutsu.


No, having Better Ninjutsu, doesn't equal being better at Ninjutsu.

Literally the only reason Itachi has better Ninjutsu than Kakashi, is because he was born an Uchiha. Kakashi also met the requirements to awaken MS at a young age, and his MS is actually better than Itachi's. Problem is he wasn't an Uchiha so he only had 1 Sharingan, he got from Obito. That's all there is too it.



> Itachi's skill with weapons recloses any gap.


Taijutsu is hand to hand combat, suddenly weapons are being counted for Itachi, and like skill with thrown weapons equals being able to activate Gates. Come on. Were talking about a man who frequently spared with Might Gai and had amply oppertunity to copy his movements. And it's not like Kakashi isn't extremely proficient with weapons as well.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Sep 21, 2014)

There about even im talking about (war arc kakashi) without dms and sage chakra.


I have itachi slightly mainly due to the fact that genjutsu is a easier win condition then hitting a opponent with ninjutsu, the faster hand signs also give him the advatage of pulling out his jutsu faster.


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 21, 2014)

If we are comparing the two at their highest levels Itachi gets STOMPED on by DMS


----------



## Rocky (Sep 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> And Kakashi was able to lead entire teams as a Chunin at age 6. He probably also had Hokage wisdom by age 7. Whatever wisdom counts for anyway.



Leading Genin/Chunin teams ≠ Hokage wisdom. 



> We literally saw how MS works through Sasuke, and it was powered by emotional responses not gaining skill in Ninjutsu. And yes Itachi's awakening of MS basically amounts to Shisui handing it to him by committing suicide in front of him.



If you think going through a bad time is all it takes to awaken the Mangekyou, then far more Uchiha would have awakened it throughout history.

Also, activating the Mangekyou doesn't grant you Susano'o. That was rare among the Mangekyou apparently. Even the regular MS ninjutsu don't automatically come with the MS itself. That's why Sasuke wasn't busting out Stage 4 Susano'o against B.



> No, having Better Ninjutsu, doesn't equal being better at Ninjutsu.



That's what it means to me. What else could it mean? 

EMS Madara has like 4 justu we know about, and he beats out Kakashi in ninjutsu all the same.



> Literally the only reason Itachi has better Ninjutsu than Kakashi, is because he was born an Uchiha. Kakashi also met the requirements to awaken MS at a young age, and his MS is actually better than Itachi's. Problem is he wasn't an Uchiha so he only had 1 Sharingan, he got from Obito. That's all there is too it.



What's your point?

This is an _incredibly_ stupid statement. It takes more than birth as an Uchiha to master the Sharingan, unlock the Mangekyou, and become incredibly proficient in its techniques. 

Not only that, but Kakashi was literally _handed_ his most powerful technique by Obito. So if your claiming Itachi's ninjutsu skill is a result of his birth (which is false), then Kakashi's would be a result of the Sharingan, which Obito actually gave to him for free.

Just stop.



> Taijutsu is hand to hand combat, suddenly weapons are being counted for Itachi, and like skill with thrown weapons equals being able to activate Gates. Come on. Were talking about a man who frequently spared with Might Gai and had amply oppertunity to copy his movements. And it's not like Kakashi isn't extremely proficient with weapons as well.



Kenjutsu is a subset of Taijutsu, so it could be counted. Itachi also has better feats in the area, like keeping up with Naruto.


----------



## Arles Celes (Sep 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Sasuke figured out how to counter Muki-Tensei. Itachi did not figure out how to counter Haguki he just muscled through it due to WOF and Edo-Buffs. He did know that Kabuto would likely target Sasuke because of his Orochimaru ambitions, but we quickly saw the limit to that style of planning when Itachi got hit by Muki-Tensei because of it.
> 
> Kakashi is all around better than Itachi, in terms of intelligence. The guy was compared to Shikkamaru who has a 200IQ. He out smarted Itachi himself with a Bushin-Feint. Figured out Kamui, something Itachi himself failed to accomplish. Figured out the strategy necessary to defeat Kaguya. And was praised by Hagoromo himself for his insight. If your unwilling to accept Kakashi is better than Itachi in this regard than you are unwilling to accept anyone is.
> 
> ...



Shikaku is smarter than Shikamaru despite his IQ never being brought into question and outsmarting someone with a bunshin feint is hardly so impressive as anyone can do it...hell, I recall Itachi in part 1 fooling Kakashi with a bunshin feint too. Part 1 Naruto could probably fool Current Sasuke with it despite Sasuke's intelligence being praised much more. And Itachi was way less motivated to win than Kakashi was the last time they fought and motivation can play quite a difference.

As for Kamui, Kakashi had the same tool at his disposal and so it was easier for him to sort it out. Itachi doesn't have Kamui so he doesn't have the same benefit. Reagrding Kakashi's strategy against Kaguya we do not know how Itachi would do since he didn't participate in it. Besides Hagoromo praised more his leadership skills than anything. And Black Zetsu despite his jerkass tendencies praised Itachi's intelligence.

Personally I see Shika, Itachi and Kakashi in a similar super smart tier and since Kishi faps to them all giving them praise all the time even if there is a difference in "smartness" between them I doubt it is more than marginal. Though Shika MIGHT be the best since strategies are his main gimmick while Kakashi and Itachi are quite powerful and their intelligence is just one of their weapons. I guess I could add Hiruzen as a potential contender too...


----------



## babaGAReeb (Sep 21, 2014)

double MS kakashi is way too stronk

itachi loses healthy or not


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 21, 2014)

Its very interesting to see that Double MS Kakashi >>>>>>> Double MS Itachi. And Kakashi isnt even an Uchiha. Take away the PS and you still have DMS kakashi w/ war arc feats+ stamina which still mid-diffs Itachi


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 21, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> Shikaku is smarter than Shikamaru despite his IQ never being brought into question and outsmarting someone with a bunshin feint is hardly so impressive as anyone can do it...hell, I recall Itachi in part 1 fooling Kakashi with a bunshin feint too. Part 1 Naruto could probably fool Current Sasuke with it despite Sasuke's intelligence being praised much more. And Itachi was way less motivated to win than Kakashi was the last time they fought and motivation can play quite a difference.



Kakashi knew it was a bunshin the entire time. The only reason he hit him is because he had to protect Kurenai. Itachi was fooled by Kakashi's bunshin in that exchange.

Anyways, ninjutsu. Kakashi has 3 elements, Itachi has two. Kakashi has S/T jutsu, Itachi doesn't. Both have sealing. Kakashi has summonings, Itachi does too but Kakashi's are better (tracking and fighting, Itachi's is just for diversion really which any summon can do. Kakashi's can kill people). They both got susanoo and if everyone believes the horseshit that susanoo don't require eyes and merely needs them to be awaken then Kakashi keeps it. Kakashi wins in ninjutsu no matter how you look at it. Tsukiyomi is genjutsu. Amaterasu isn't versatile and has been beaten too many times. Susanoo can be beat while Kamui can't.

HOKAGE WISDOM MEANS JACK SHIT. It means Itachi held the village over his clan. It literally takes no intelligence.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> And Kakashi was able to lead entire teams as a Chunin at age 6. He probably also had Hokage wisdom by age 7. Whatever wisdom counts for anyway.


Itachi has sharingan, he probably copied over 1000 jutsu as well.



Raikiri19 said:


> Even left eye Sharingan/Mangekyo Sharingan with Kamui space-time barrier for offense and defense + self teleporting between the dimensions or from a place to another shits on Amaterasu + Susanoo + Tsukuyomi. Tsukuyomi is avoided without making eye contact, Amaterasu is reacted and outspeeded with Kamui's offense (for fuck's sake, even base Killer Bee could throw a sword before Edo Itachi could launch Amaterasu from his eye, after he had already cried blood... just remember how Kakashi managed to Kamui an entire body in front of the eyes of Obito, who with top notch dojutsu and reflexes and full knowledge couldn't even perceive the warp thanks to Kakashi's timing and speed in his execution, how Kakashi could warp the arm of the Gedo Mazo while Madara was already summoning it at him with S/T ninjutsu, etc), Susanoo is warped away or Itachi is warped in the Susanoo, it doesn't give any special defense against Kamui, that is hyped to be uncounterable once landed (and feats agree, Kamui could warp even Juudara's Onmyoton shield that works out ninjutsu).
> 
> Kakashi with his War Arc display has also better feats in everything bar genjutsu, War Arc Kakashi mid diffs Itachi. Shippuden Kakashi wins slightly. Part 1 Kakashi ofc loses, DMS Kakashi totally shits on.



War arc Kakashi accomplished nothing, other than defeating 7 swordsman with a division behind his back. He did nothing featwise that'd put him on Itachi's level, let alone above him. He didn't recieve any hype that'd place him on Itachi's level either. 

Kakashi is a solid support nin. He isn't big boy league material though. He always had stronger allies doing the actual fighting while he contributed from the side lines.



JuicyG said:


> Its very interesting to see that Double MS Kakashi >>>>>>> Double MS Itachi. And Kakashi isnt even an Uchiha. Take away the PS and you still have DMS kakashi w/ war arc feats+ stamina which still mid-diffs Itachi



Kakashi being Uchiha or not is irrelevant. He has the power of the most broken Uchiha.


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 21, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kakashi being Uchiha or not is irrelevant. He has the power of the most broken Uchiha.





It is relevant, Itachi spoke of it in part 1 about Kakashi not having the Uchiha blood which made it rder for him to use the Sharingan as fluently as the clan.

Kakashi > Itachi just come to terms with it because thats how it is buddy


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 21, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> It is relevant, Itachi spoke of it in part 1 about Kakashi not having the Uchiha blood which made it rder for him to use the Sharingan as fluently as the clan.


Itachi mentioned that sharingan would tire him easily, which was true @ that point.



> Kakashi > Itachi just come to terms with it because thats how it is buddy


No its not, buddy. 

You may argue that Kamui is more broken than Itachi's MS jutsus, but then, it is Obito's sharingan.
Without the power of the Uchiha, Kakashi is more useless than Sakura(self admission).


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 21, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi mentioned that sharingan would tire him easily, which was true @ that point.
> 
> 
> No its not, buddy.
> ...



He specifically said Kakashi would never be able to use the sharingan's full potential because he wasn't an Uchiha. And Kakashi still did.

Without sharingan Kakashi became a Jounin. Itachi without sharingan would be hard pressed to pass the chunin exams, he's garbage without sharingan.


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 21, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi mentioned that sharingan would tire him easily, which was true @ that point.
> 
> 
> No its not, buddy.
> ...




Lmao

Trying to take away from what Kishi gave Kakashi in order to justify your Itachi > Kakashi are we ? 

And without the power of Uchiha one can say the same about Itachi now couldnt we ? Just stop it man, ever since DMS Kakashi came along its been Kakashi >>>>>>>>>>>> Itachi. Some even argue war arc kakashi > Itachi. Itachi's soloing king top tier days are over and he will NEVER be over DMS kakashi. Sorry.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 22, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> He specifically said Kakashi would never be able to use the sharingan's full potential because he wasn't an Uchiha. And Kakashi still did.


And he never did.

Kakashi only used sharingan's full potential after Obito traveled back from heaven with kamui, jumped inside Kakashi's body and somehow managed to give him a temporary EMS.




> Without sharingan Kakashi became a Jounin. Itachi without sharingan would be hard pressed to pass the chunin exams, he's garbage without sharingan.





Ok I admit you managed to make me laugh with this one.



JuicyG said:


> Lmao
> 
> Trying to take away from what Kishi gave Kakashi in order to justify your Itachi > Kakashi are we ?


Kishimoto already took it away 



> And without the power of Uchiha one can say the same about Itachi now couldnt we ? Just stop it man, ever since DMS Kakashi came along its been Kakashi >>>>>>>>>>>> Itachi. Some even argue war arc kakashi > Itachi. Itachi's soloing king top tier days are over and he will NEVER be over DMS kakashi. Sorry.



None is arguing that. 

But lets admit it, if Obito was Konohomaru's friend, Konohomaru would be in Kakashi's position. It was the cheapest power up in this entire manga, and boy we've seen cursed seals and Kyuubi lol.


----------



## J★J♥ (Sep 22, 2014)

Hmm hard to say Kakashit or Shitachi.
Id say Kakashit


----------



## Bloo (Sep 22, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> So how about *Current Kakashi Vs. Itachi at his best*. Both only have access to the normal sharingan.


Current Kakashi? Honestly? Current Kakashi gets annihilated against Prime Itachi. Kakashi's fighting style, for the most part, revolves around his Sharingan. Current Kakashi no longer has that. He can't even appropriately use Raikiri without the Sharingan.


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 22, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> And he never did.
> 
> Kakashi only used sharingan's full potential after Obito traveled back from heaven with kamui, jumped inside Kakashi's body and somehow managed to give him a temporary EMS.


But it wasn't EMS, it was just double MS, and we clearly can tell that by the design of the MS being the same as it was before. Its just that Kakashi was so skilled with the sharingan he was able to master it to a fuller extent than any previous sharingan weilder. And by that I don't mean it advanced it as far, but mastered it. He was able to do something with MS that only EMS users can achieve.





> Ok I admit you managed to make me laugh with this one.


But is true. Without sharingan Kakashi had already created techniques, leading squads, and became a jounin. Itachi without sharingan means that his genjutsu prowess would take a major hit(as he uses sharingan for all of his genjutsu) and is base arsenal is laughable compared to the base arsenal of jounin such as Asuma and others. While Kakashi still has his summons, 1 thousand jutsu, 3 elements, and able to use Rakiri although with a drawback.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 22, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Leading Genin/Chunin teams ≠ Hokage wisdom.


Straw-man, considering I never said it did. I said Kakashi also showed great wisdom at a young age. Now would you care to prove to me that Kakashi did not have Hokage "level" wisdom at age 7; or that his wisdom isn't superior to Itachi's now. Heck Kakashi understood he couldn't do everything on his own and the importance of utilizing his companions effectively from the very start of the manga, something Itachi couldn't grasp until his entire life was over. 



> If you think going through a bad time is all it takes to awaken the Mangekyou, then far more Uchiha would have awakened it throughout history.


We don't know how many Uchiha had Mangekyo. But most are not going to see their best friend or brother die before their eyes. Can you show me anywhere in the manga where Ninjutsu skill was associated with gaining MS Techniques.



> Also, activating the Mangekyou doesn't grant you Susano'o. That was rare among the Mangekyou apparently. Even the regular MS ninjutsu don't automatically come with the MS itself. That's why Sasuke wasn't busting out Stage 4 Susano'o against B.


Susnao'o activates once the person has activated their MS techniques in each eye; which is a product of emotion. The higher stages of Susano'o were also shown to activate as a product of emotion. 



> That's what it means to me. What else could it mean?
> 
> EMS Madara has like 4 justu we know about, and he beats out Kakashi in ninjutsu all the same.


It can mean that you were gifted powerful techniques w/o actually needing some insane degree of Ninjutsu skill to acquire them. Which is exactly the case for Itachi.



> What's your point?
> 
> This is an incredibly stupid statement. It takes more than birth as an Uchiha to master the Sharingan, unlock the Mangekyou, and become incredibly proficient in its techniques.


Again attacking a straw-man. I never said being born an Uchiha is enough. You must be

A) Born as an Uchiha
B) Experience great emotional response

Not every Uchiha will survive long enough to A) experience a great enough emotional response to awaken the various stages of Sharingan and B) than experience more emotional responses to awaken MS and it's subsequent techniques.

However none of the requirements are being good at Ninjutsu. An Uchiha who only trained in Taijutsu or Genjutsu could awaken MS and gain their subsequent techniques



> Not only that, but Kakashi was literally handed his most powerful technique by Obito. So if your claiming Itachi's ninjutsu skill is a result of his birth (which is false), then Kakashi's would be a result of the Sharingan, which Obito actually gave to him for free.


Agreed the difference is Kakashi had to actually invent a component of his Kamui, the forming of a barrier around the target to do the long-range warp. Also outside of Sharingan Kakashi has shown the perquisite Ninjutsu skill to copy and master 1K Jutsu along with inventing an S-Rank Jutsu himself. Itachi hasn't shown any of this.



> Kenjutsu is a subset of Taijutsu, so it could be counted. Itachi also has better feats in the area, like keeping up with Naruto.


Where was Kenjutsu stated to be a subset of Taijutsu? And if you want to talk about Kenjutsu, Kakashi was running around wielding Zabuza's sword like nothing. He also wielded Tanto's back in his Anbu days and White-Fang's tanto before then. 

Itachi keeping up with Naruto has to do with speed and reactions, not completely Taijutsu skill. But anyway Kakashi was keeping up with V2-Jins that had Rinnegan and Sharingan. He kept up with Obito who kept up with Naruto. He's spared with Might Gai and took on multiple 7 Mist Swordsmen. And he didn't even open the Gates. Need I even go on.



Arles Celes said:


> Shikaku is smarter than Shikamaru despite his IQ never being brought into question.


Shikaku was directly shown to out maneuver Shikkamaru in strategy at Shogi. So we have a direct example that confirms his intelligence; not to mention him coming from the same gene pool as Shikkamaru. On the flip side of this Itachi has no direct comparison that indicates he's >= Kakashi in intelligence; in-fact the only instances which we have to compare them resulted in Kakashi always being one step ahead of Itachi



> and outsmarting someone with a bunshin feint is hardly so impressive as anyone can do it...


This is not true at all. Naruto can do it because of his unpredictability, ability to spam Bushin at mass, or his enemy not having knowledge of his Bushin skills. There is also the fact that he has been using Bushin as his bread and butter for years, and was trained by a legendary sannin as well as Kakashi in how to us Bushin most effectively. 

Kakashi out maneuvering Itachi amount to more than simply using bushin to confuse the enemy anyway. Kakashi utilized Itachi's own technique to slip underground while creating a Bushin to trick Itachi. He than got Itachi to engage the Bushin in CQC so he could hold Itachi in place for Naruto to finish him off with Oddoma-Rasengan. Kakashi was able to accurately predict and guide all of Itachi movements to achieve the ends result he wished for; simply put he completely out played Itachi.



> .hell, I recall Itachi in part 1 fooling Kakashi with a bunshin feint too.


Than you are wrong. It was once again Kakashi that fooled Itachi with a Bushin Feint:
completely obliterated the football field sized platform he and Taka were fighting on
completely obliterated the football field sized platform he and Taka were fighting on



> And Itachi was way less motivated to win than Kakashi was the last time they fought and motivation can play quite a difference.


Oh please, Kakashi outplayed Itachi in terms of strategy both times he faced him



> As for Kamui, Kakashi had the same tool at his disposal and so it was easier for him to sort it out. Itachi doesn't have Kamui so he doesn't have the same benefit.


Kakashi figured out the right way to fight Obito even before he realized his Kamui was the same as his, when Obito appeared before him, yamato, and Naruto.  Itachi had literally years upon years to figure out Obito's ability and ways to combat it, yet in the end he could not do it. Kakashi figured out a way to deal with it after seeing the ability used a once. 



> Reagrding Kakashi's strategy against Kaguya we do not know how Itachi would do since he didn't participate in it.


Yeah and we don't know how Konohamaru would do ether since he didn't participate. That doesn't take away from the fact that Kakashi's feats are better than Itachi's.



> Besides Hagoromo praised more his leadership skills than anything. And Black Zetsu despite his jerkass tendencies praised Itachi's intelligence.


Okay, and what did he do as team-leader? He developed the strategy to defeat Kaguya and lead his team to enact it. So Hagoromo is praising his strategic ability, when speaking about his leadership. 

So BZ the man who was out maneuvered by Kakashi considered Itachi intelligent, but not more intelligent than himself. 

So basically going off BZ's thoughts, we'd end up with Kakashi > BZ > Itachi > Most People, which is something I agree with 



> Personally I see Shika, Itachi and Kakashi in a similar super smart tier and since Kishi faps to them all giving them praise all the time even if there is a difference in "smartness" between them I doubt it is more than marginal. Though Shika MIGHT be the best since strategies are his main gimmick while Kakashi and Itachi are quite powerful and their intelligence is just one of their weapons. I guess I could add Hiruzen as a potential contender too...


Itachi has no where near the IQ hype to be compared to Shikka. Where he's potentially better than Shikka is his exp (or wisdom) and knowledge. However, even that can be debated considering the amount of knowledge and exp Shikka would have amassed in this war.

Kakashi on the other hand is comparable to Shika IQ wise, and he also has decisively more exp and knowledge.

Kakashi > Shika > Itachi


----------



## Altair21 (Sep 22, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> *But it wasn't EMS, it was just double MS, and we clearly can tell that by the design of the MS being the same as it was before. Its just that Kakashi was so skilled with the sharingan he was able to master it to a fuller extent than any previous sharingan weilder. And by that I don't mean it advanced it as far, but mastered it. He was able to do something with MS that only EMS users can achieve.But is true.* Without sharingan Kakashi had already created techniques, leading squads, and became a jounin. Itachi without sharingan means that his genjutsu prowess would take a major hit(as he uses sharingan for all of his genjutsu) and is base arsenal is laughable compared to the base arsenal of jounin such as Asuma and others. While Kakashi still has his summons, 1 thousand jutsu, 3 elements, and able to use Rakiri although with a drawback.



All of this is wrong. The sharingan Obito lent Kakashi was anything but normal and Kakashi himself admits that. It was strengthened by the rikudo chakra inside Obito hence why he was even able to perform PS to begin with. That chakra strengthened the eyes to the point where they were as strong as a pair of EMS eyes or possibly stronger. It had nothing to do with Kakashi's skill.


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 22, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> *the cheapest power up in this entire manga, and boy we've seen cursed seals and Kyuubi lol.*





Sounds like a personal problem. Go tell Kishi to give Itachi a 'cheap' power up so your guy isn't left in some bottom tier



Bloo said:


> *Current Kakashi? Honestly? Current Kakashi* gets annihilated against Prime Itachi. Kakashi's fighting style, for the most part, revolves around his Sharingan. Current Kakashi no longer has that. He can't even appropriately use Raikiri without the Sharingan.




This thread was created before the chapters came where Kakashi lost his sharingan. So treat it as such


----------



## Bloo (Sep 22, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> This thread was created before the chapters came where Kakashi lost his sharingan. So treat it as such


Okay. If PS Kakashi is being discussed, then he stomps unless Itachi can somehow land Izanami without dying (assuming it would even work on Kakashi). If this is War Arc Kakashi before PS, then it can go either way, in my opinion. I would give Itachi a slight edge due to having the more powerful MS, seeing as how he has three MS techniques to Kakashi's single technique.


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 22, 2014)

War Arc Kakashi vs Itachi is a solid match up indeed, but I'd also still go with Itachi, slightly.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 22, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> But it wasn't EMS, it was just double MS, and we clearly can tell that by the design of the MS being the same as it was before. Its just that Kakashi was so skilled with the sharingan he was able to master it to a fuller extent than any previous sharingan weilder. And by that I don't mean it advanced it as far, but mastered it. He was able to do something with MS that only EMS users can achieve.


Dude Obito gave him his eyes as they were. Kakashi didn't do anything extra with them. Like you said, the pattern is the same with Obito's.
Kakashi didn't master anything.

Its like, a cook comes to your house and bakes a cake and then hands it to you and then you go inside and show it to your guests and they tell you that you'r a great cook.
Which you are not, someone else did that for you.



> But is true. Without sharingan Kakashi had already created techniques, leading squads, and became a jounin.


And he was struggling against regular rock jounins and would get his ass ripped open if an Uchiha didn't help him with his magic eyes.



> Itachi without sharingan means that his genjutsu prowess would take a major hit(as he uses sharingan for all of his genjutsu) and is base arsenal is laughable compared to the base arsenal of jounin such as Asuma and others. While Kakashi still has his summons, 1 thousand jutsu, 3 elements, and able to use Rakiri although with a drawback.



Itachi had sharingan since he was 8. Basically he had sharingan right after he graduated from academy and had it with him through out his whole ninja career. There wasn't a time for him without the sharingan, so obviously his fighting style revolves around it. 
Thats like saying Hashirama is shit without Mokuton. Stupid comparison.

Also finger genjutsu solos shit tiers like asuma and others. It'd solo Kakashi too if he didn't have sharingan to break him out of it. Food for thought.



JuicyG said:


> Sounds like a personal problem. Go tell Kishi to give Itachi a 'cheap' power up so your guy isn't left in some bottom tier


Lol no, I'd hate to see my favorite character get 'cheapaned' to that extend. That was the equavalent of Kishimoto saying "this character is so fucking weak that I had to asspull a power up for him to become relevant again."

And it was a temporary power up anyways. Lasted about a couple of minutes, not sure if we can even consider it a part of Kakashi's power.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Now would you care to prove to me that Kakashi did not have Hokage "level" wisdom at age 7.



Young Kakashi was being taught life lessons by Gaiden Obito....



> We don't know how many Uchiha had Mangekyo. But most are not going to see their best friend or brother die before their eyes.



Actually, most likely did, as it was constant war back when the Uchiha were around.



> Susnao'o activates once the person has activated their MS techniques in each eye; which is a product of emotion. The higher stages of Susano'o were also shown to activate as a product of emotion.



You would still need skill to use the higher leveled techniques. 



> It can mean that you were gifted powerful techniques w/o actually needing some insane degree of Ninjutsu skill to acquire them. Which is exactly the case for Itachi.



You may not need insane ninjutsu skill to _acquire_ them, but utilizing them in battle at a high level is a different story.



> However none of the requirements are being good at Ninjutsu. An Uchiha who only trained in Taijutsu or Genjutsu could awaken MS and gain their subsequent techniques



That doesn't mean they'd be any good at them without the proper ninjutsu proficiency to use them effectively. 



> Agreed the difference is Kakashi had to actually invent a component of his Kamui, the forming of a barrier around the target to do the long-range warp. Also outside of Sharingan Kakashi has shown the perquisite Ninjutsu skill to copy and master 1K Jutsu along with inventing an S-Rank Jutsu himself. Itachi hasn't shown any of this.



I don't know what you're talking about with Kamui there, but regardless, inventing ninjutsu does not mean one is superior in ninjutsu.



> Itachi keeping up with Naruto has to do with speed and reactions, not completely Taijutsu skill. But anyway Kakashi was keeping up with V2-Jins that had Rinnegan and Sharingan. He kept up with Obito who kept up with Naruto. He's spared with Might Gai and took on multiple 7 Mist Swordsmen. And he didn't even open the Gates. Need I even go on.



I'm pretty sure their eyes fade completely white upon activating version 2, so they didn't have the Sharingan precognition. 

That said, KCM Naruto > v2 Han (or whoever it was), and Obito never fought Naruto hand to hand without Kamui. Kakashi's fights against Gai and the swordsmen were off panel, so we don't know how he did, and we don't know how Itachi would do either.


----------



## Semiotic Sacrilege (Sep 22, 2014)

Rocky said:


> -snip-



You failed to address the most important parts of Turrin's argument in my opinion. Like...



Turrin said:


> Where was Kenjutsu stated to be a subset of Taijutsu? *And if you want to talk about Kenjutsu, Kakashi was running around wielding Zabuza's sword like nothing. He also wielded Tanto's back in his Anbu days and White-Fang's tanto before then. *
> 
> *Itachi keeping up with Naruto has to do with speed and reactions, not completely Taijutsu skill. But anyway Kakashi was keeping up with V2-Jins that had Rinnegan and Sharingan. He kept up with Obito who kept up with Naruto. He's spared with Might Gai and took on multiple 7 Mist Swordsmen. And he didn't even open the Gates. Need I even go on.*
> 
> ...



Also, you're making a LOT of assumptions about the Mangekyo that have no basis in the manga. On the flip side, Turrin is making logical deductions from the only examples we've seen directly from the manga. Just saying!


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 22, 2014)

BTW

MS is restricted here anyhow....seriously Itachi gets murdered


----------



## Turrin (Sep 22, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Young Kakashi was being taught life lessons by Gaiden Obito.....


Gaiden Kakashi learned the importance of companions from Obito. Itachi had to die to learn that same lesson, when he was 21 years old. So what exactly is your point.



> Actually, most likely did, as it was constant war back when the Uchiha were around.


Yes it was War. So let's compare it to the current War. Given that there were individual battles taking place across an entire country, not everyone was in the same place at all times. If Lee died to 7M Swordsmen, and Neji was an Uchiha, he wouldn't be around to see Lee die to gain MS, as he'd be off fighting his own battle. Or let's compare it to the third shinobi war; Tsunade was not around to see Nawaki die. 

Basically you'd need 1 Uchiha with Three-Tome to be fighting on the same battlefield as his most treasured person, and to see that person die. This is not something that is going to happen often, and the probability of it happening is basically totally up to the whims of the author. So if Kishi only wants it to happen twice (Izuna and Madara) than there is no reason that can not be the case. 

But can you show me where it was stated that Izuna and Madara were the only ones with MS anyway?



> You would still need skill to use the higher leveled techniques.


Give me one panel that states you need a great deal of Ninjutsu skill to use MS Techniques



> You may not need insane ninjutsu skill to acquire them, but utilizing them in battle at a high level is a different story.


Utilizing the skill tactically comes down to intelligence, not skill in Ninjutsu. It would only be skill in Ninjutsu if a certain style of utilizing the technique required a certain level of Ninjutsu skill to reproduced. Sasuke using shape manipulation with Enton or Kakashi having to create a barrier to control where the Kamui worm hole appears, those things require skill with Ninjutsu when utilizing those techniques that way. Itachi never demonstrated any of that with his MS techniques. 



> That doesn't mean they'd be any good at them without the proper ninjutsu proficiency to use them effectively.


What proficiency in Ninjutsu does it take to use Amaterasu. You look at the target LOL.
What proficiency in Ninjutsu does it take to command Susano'o. It automatically moves via the users will power. 

There is literally no Ninjutsu skill required there. If you equalized Itachi's intelligence and speed/reactions w/ Tenten, and gave them both the same MS Techs, they'd perform exactly the same, despite Itachi being vastly more skilled in Ninjutsu  than Tenten. In-fact if Lee was given Itachi's MS Techniques or Gai, despite them being utter shit in Ninjutsu those techniques would be more dangerous because of their vastly superior speed/reflexes. 



> I don't know what you're talking about with Kamui there, but regardless, inventing ninjutsu does not mean one is superior in ninjutsu.


If Kakashi invent a D-rank Technique no it wouldn't, but inventing an S-Rank Technique, while the other person hasn't even shown the ability to utilize a single S-rank technique, let alone invent one, makes the difference extremely clear. This add on top of Kakashi 1K Jutsu. Kakashi having vastly superior feats in Nature Alteration and Shape manipulation, and so on.



> I'm pretty sure their eyes fade completely white upon activating version 2, so they didn't have the Sharingan precognition.


The shroud has white eyes, not the Jins. But irregardless, they were clearly presented as being much stronger and more difficult to handle in CQC than 1-Tailed versions, and the 1-Tailed versions were already keeping up with B and KCM-Naruto, the same as Itachi was. So Kakashi automatically has at least an equal feat to Itachi, if not a superior one, and he can still open at least one gat on top of it, and has only gotten more experienced since then.


----------



## Joakim3 (Sep 22, 2014)

Base sharingan vs. base sharingan? Kakashi takes this more times than not (with hard/extreme dif)

While Itachi is faster and better at CqC, Kakashi trumps him in stamina, tactics and most importantly variety which ultimately give him the win.


----------



## StickaStick (Sep 22, 2014)

Kakashi never mastered the Sharingan. That would require obtaining EMS (the Sharingan's highest order barring Rinnegan variants) and reaching it's full potential (Perfect-Susanoo) naturally. As other have pointed out, Kakashi was literally gifted Perfect-Susanoo via Obito's spiritual energy imbued with Rikudou Chakra. Hypothetically, Obito could have chosen another individual to grant the same gift. Obviously Kakashi was well suited for this prospect considering his prior experience having used the Sharingan, but none of that came into play in his "unlocking" Perfect Susanoo. 

I would also like someone to show my where it's explicitly or implicitly implied that a lack of Uchiha blood was somehow the reason for why it took Kakashi all the way from Kakashi Gaiden to the Gaara Retrial Arc to first show the ability to use the Kamui S-T barrier, and very poorly at that. The main argument for this seems to center around Itachi's dialogue with Kakashi where Itachi tells him that he didn't have true Uchiha blood and that it is what made the Uchihas the masters of the Sharigan; however, Itachi then clarifies by stating that he would show Kakashi the true power of the Sharigan held by a trueblood Uchiha, obviously referring to MS which grants unique dojutsu. This would seem to imply that Itachi thought because  Kakashi lacked Uchiha blood he could never obtain the higher orders of the Sharigan (i.e., it's true power), which as we know is patently false considering Kakashi unlocked his MS the same time as Obito.

Nothing here refers to the idea that because Kakashi lack Uchiha blood and it's heritage that that provided extra obstacles to his mastering the Sharingan. And it most certainly does not suggest any barriers to the extent of Kakashi needing the time in-between Kakashi Gaiden and the GRA to show a simple S-T barrier. The most one could say it that because of Kakashi inability to turn the Sharingan on-and-off naturally it would have made the task of training it a bit more difficult.. 

I also find this argument between the two of inherited advantages a bit unsettling. We know Itachi won the inheritance lottery by being born a Uchiha and gifted with the potential to reach reach higher plateaus than other individuals would ordinarily have access to; say, someone like Kakashi. However, Kakashi had his own advantages as well. Such as being born to an absolute genius in Sakumo and being mentored for some time by Minato. People who could properly cultivate someone like Kakashi at an early age and teach him how to harness his potential. Itachi didn't have the same benefit with Fugaku who, if anything, made life more difficult for Itachi by putting him in precarious positions. Anyway, who gives a fuck. Both are obviously to supposed to be seen as extremely intelligent in most if not all facets. I would give Kakashi the edge ultimately due to his superior tactical and deduction feats and superior hype given by Hagoromo.


----------



## Santoryu (Sep 22, 2014)

> Kakashi never mastered the Sharingan. That would require obtaining EMS (the Sharingan's highest order barring Rinnegan variants) and reaching it's full potential (Perfect-Susanoo) naturally. As other have pointed out, Kakashi was literally gifted Perfect-Susanoo via Obito's spiritual energy imbued with Rikudou Chakra. Hypothetically, Obito could have chosen another individual to grant the same gift. Obviously Kakashi was well suited for this prospect considering his prior experience having used the Sharingan, *but none of that came into play in his "unlocking" Perfect Susanoo*.



Baseless conjecture 

Kakashi did master *his* version of the Sharingan. He only had one. Using PS would be impossible because he only had one, irregardless of his skill-level. Kakashi might have been "gifted" PS, but a technique is only as good as the user. Fact is that Kakashi with both eyes had the necessary potency, efficiency, and general-skill to not only utilize PS, but combine it with other abilities too.

And some people still persist on neglecting the fact that Kakashi has access to at least the first gate which is a taijutsu technique. You can pine for it as much as you want, but Itachi isn't better in taijutsu. They are comparable.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Sep 22, 2014)

Itachi is much like Naruto, Sasuke , Minato he was praised for his rapid growth as it pertains to becoming a powerful shinobi at a young age and also the fact that he had the insight of an adult to learn about the shinobi world and think of others at a young age , Itachi's prasie has nothing to do with tactical abilities , leading a team , mastering abilities without KG , teaching , ect . all the things that Kakashi has demonstrated to be incredible for , Kakashi's tactical abilities were compared to Shikamaru's and not Itachi and based on hype and feats Shikamaru>>>>Itachi in battle strategies, Itachi spent 7 yrs with Obito yet never figured out Kamui while it took Kakashi all of 5 minutes , Itachi is very knowledgable of the shinobi world and is one of the best overall "ninjas" of all time but he's not more intelligent than Kakashi.


----------



## StickaStick (Sep 22, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Itachi spent 7 yrs with Obito yet never figured out Kamui while it took Kakashi all of 5 minutes , Itachi is very knowledgable of the shinobi world and is one of the best overall "ninjas" of all time but he's not more intelligent than Kakashi.


Couple of things here. Obito made it clear after surviving the Tensha Fūin Amaterasu that Itachi had never seen Kamui before; i.e., one of the secrets he kept from him.

Kakashi actually had seen Obito use it twice before the War-Arc; once during the 2nd Sasuke Retrival Arc (or whatever it's called) and the Kage Summit. So he had plenty of time to think it over. And then during the War-Arc when he figured it out he was in part aided by the fact that he too possessed Kamui. Not that I think Itachi would have figured it out any sooner under similar circumstances (I don't) but lets not make it out to be something that it's not.



Santoryu said:


> Baseless conjecture


Just curious, by why would you call it "baseless conjecture" and then proceed to apparently agree with me when you say this 

_Kakashi might have been "gifted" PS[...]_



> Kakashi did master *his* version of the Sharingan.


Two things: one, this isn't factually true. Kakashi even just prior to having his Sharingan taken by Mads was still being held back by his less-than-perfect control over the S-T barrier and in how large he could make the worm hole. Just pointing that out.

Secondly, even if this were true, that's not what we're talking about. As in, Kakashi's mastery of his Sharingan =/= Mastery of _The _Sharingan.



> He only had one. Using PS would be impossible because he only had one, irregardless of his skill-level. Kakashi might have been "gifted" PS, but a technique is only as good as the user.


I never argued against any of this, as it's all common knowledge. So I'm not sure why you're throwing it in here.



> Fact is that Kakashi with both eyes had the necessary potency, efficiency, and general-skill to not only utilize PS, but combine it with other abilities too.


Invoking Perfect Susanoo in Kakashi's case had nothing to do with any of the things you listed, as he was shown to have auto-access to it from the get-go. We know this case is unique because in other instances Susanoo has been shown to develop in stages. Sasuke made this abundantly clear.


----------



## Bloo (Sep 22, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Itachi is much like Naruto, Sasuke , Minato he was praised for his rapid growth as it pertains to becoming a powerful shinobi at a young age and also the fact that he had the insight of an adult to learn about the shinobi world and think of others at a young age , Itachi's prasie has nothing to do with tactical abilities , leading a team , mastering abilities without KG , teaching , ect . all the things that Kakashi has demonstrated to be incredible for , Kakashi's tactical abilities were compared to Shikamaru's and not Itachi and based on hype and feats Shikamaru>>>>Itachi in battle strategies, Itachi spent 7 yrs with Obito yet never figured out Kamui while it took Kakashi all of 5 minutes , Itachi is very knowledgable of the shinobi world and is one of the best overall "ninjas" of all time but he's not more intelligent than Kakashi.


This post is riddled with inaccuracies. The comment on Itachi spending 7 years with Obito is garbage. We don't have any solid evidence that they interacted much at all after the Uchiha Massacre. You say that as if they were best pals. It was even heavily hinted that Itachi had no idea about Kamui. Obito's comment to himself that if he hadn't kept secrets from Itachi, Itachi would have killed him at that point, heavily implies that it was Kamui. With Obito being dead, with nothing left to reveal, Kamui is the only logical explanation for what he did to survive that assault.

Itachi was able to figure out the Rinnegan's shared vision instantly and countered it flawlessly. Furthermore, he was able to strategize a way to cancel Chibaku Tensei. I'm sorry, Kakashi is a very intelligent shinobi. But, if anything, Itachi is equal to or greater than Kakashi in terms of intelligence due to portrayal and hype. The main person to hype Kakashi's intelligence is Naruto at the very beginning of Part II. Hiruzen praised Itachi's intelligence as being on par with a Kage from the age of 7. Hiruzen >>> Naruto at the beginning of Part II in terms of reliability in that way, and that hype from Hiruzen is much more impressive than Naruto's comment.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Sep 22, 2014)

Rocky said:


> What's your point?
> 
> This is an _incredibly_ stupid statement. It takes more than birth as an Uchiha to master the Sharingan, unlock the Mangekyou, and become incredibly proficient in its techniques.
> 
> ...


I think what he's saying overall is Kakashi has been shown to master ninjutsu better than Itachi has. Itachi may have a couple of potent ninjutsu related to his dojutsu but when it comes to skill and versatility, I believe Kakashi has him beat. Short of the 5th Mizukage or the Oonoki, I don't think we've seen anyone else master the elements like Kakashi has. 

When it comes to the sharingan, I think DMS Kakashi > Itachi (any version). While it's true he didn't have to work for it he was able to utilize fairly efficiently. Back to the main point, though when it comes raw ninjutsu, Kakashi has Itachi beat in the same regard that Itachi has Kakashi beat when it comes to genjutsu.

As great as Itachi has been, he has not uniquely created a technique on his own, whereas Kakashi created the Raikiri/Chidori at fairy young age. 



> Kenjutsu is a subset of Taijutsu, so it could be counted. Itachi also has better feats in the area, like keeping up with Naruto.


That doesn't really account for much, as Naruto wasn't really trying to engage Itachi but besides that, Kakashi was able to keep up with Sharingan/Rin'negan Obito and defeat him in a 1 vs. 1 combat. 

What has Itachi done that grants him rank in kenjutsu?


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 22, 2014)

Ryuzaki said:


> What has Itachi done that grants him rank in kenjutsu?



He held a sword and his name is Itachi. Itachi could pick up a rock and people would claim he would beat Madara with the rock because of his "weapons skill".


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 22, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> He held a sword and his name is Itachi. Itachi could pick up a rock and people would claim he would beat Madara with the rock because of his "weapons skill".




This is SOO right.


The Itachi wank in BD is ridiculous. People are seriously gay over the guy. Sorry people he's not all that, theres many above him at this point, just face it.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Sep 23, 2014)

Ryuzaki said:


> What has Itachi done that grants him rank in kenjutsu?




1.His kunai skill blind sided pains summons

2. he took on killer bee with a kunai and came out unharmed, not like he harmed bee either but being able to dance with bee and not get hit is a extremly good feat as bee is most likely the best swordsman in the manga.

3.he kept up with sage powered oppenent with just a sword and was able to cut his horn to start up the izanami loop.

4.he took on heibi sasuke with just a kunai and was pressuring him.


even in the filler arc when kakashi was chidoring ppl to death itachi was just killing people with kunai's

i would say kishi went out his way to show that itachi is skilled with kenjutsu, kakashi is skilled as well, but i edge itachi because he was able to utilize kenjutsu against high level opponents



JuicyG said:


> This is SOO right.
> 
> 
> The Itachi wank in BD is ridiculous. People are seriously gay over the guy. Sorry people he's not all that, theres many above him at this point, just face it.



there are many people above itachi but this just sounds like hate to me lol


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 23, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> 1.His kunai skill blind sided pains summons



BLIND sided. As in Pain couldn't see Itachi. If Itachi didn't hit them it would be terrible. Also not kenjutsu.



> 2. he took on killer bee with a kunai and came out unharmed, not like he harmed bee either but being able to dance with bee and not get hit is a extremly good feat as bee is most likely the best swordsman in the manga.



No. He defended as much as Sasuke did. The exact same actually. He just ran while Sasuke stayed and fought. If Itachi stayed and fought, the same would've happened to him as it happened to Sasuke.



> 3.he kept up with sage powered oppenent with just a sword and was able to cut his horn to start up the izanami loop.



He didn't keep up. Kabuto blitzed him and cut him in half. He stayed in susanoo and Kabuto tagged him a couple of times.  He only cut Kabuto because of ninjutsu.



> 4.he took on heibi sasuke with just a kunai and was pressuring him.



Hebi Sasuke's kenjutsu is overrated. He ain't shit.



> i would say kishi went out his way to show that itachi is skilled with kenjutsu, kakashi is skilled as well, but i edge itachi because he was able to utilize kenjutsu against high level opponents



Kakashi used a sword he never touched and was so huge Suigetsu had some trouble with it and used it to beat the 7 sevenswordsmen, cutting one in half. That alone puts him above Itachi in kenjutsu.


----------



## Semiotic Sacrilege (Sep 23, 2014)

I'd say that Kakashi has just as many Kenjutsu feats as Itachi. 

-Zabuza
-Kakuzu AND Hidan (At the same time...)
-7 Swordsman
-Obito

I'm not so sure Itachi could hold his own against these opponents without his Mangekyo nearly as well as Kakashi did. Kakashi's timing and skill when it comes to Taijutsu, Kenjutsu, and Ninjustu are always on full display in his fights. I wouldn't say that Kakashi specializes in any of these categories over the other. He's always using them together. Infusing Raiton into his weapons. Using Taijustu to test opponents with his Raiton clones.  And then finishing them with Ninjutsu.

Itachi is certainly no slouch in these categories. But I would not say his feats are more impressive than Kakashi's either. It's not entirely fair since we've gotten to see more of Kakashi throughout the series. But you can't give Itachi the edge on hype and guesswork alone. In my opinion, both Itachi and Kakashi are on a very similar level in all these aspects. But Kakashi's superior combat tactics and his utilization of these skills in tandem with each other gives him the edge.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Sep 23, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> BLIND sided. As in Pain couldn't see Itachi. If Itachi didn't hit them it would be terrible. Also not kenjutsu.



the manga claims different, 

Welp she could always give this a try

it states itachi shurikens where able to hit even the blind spots, it doesn't state itachi was only successful because he blindsided the summons, kabuto clearly hypes itachi shuriken skills and i rather go with paraphrasing the author then the opinion of a bias poster any day of the week.



IchLiebe said:


> No. He defended as much as Sasuke did. The exact same actually. He just ran while Sasuke stayed and fought. If Itachi stayed and fought, the same would've happened to him as it happened to Sasuke.



Bee stopped to write a rhyme while he was fighting sasuke, and in addition sasuke had back up, he didn't remotely show the same focus, itachi also dodged a sneak attack from bee and bee had samhada vs itachi there performances where clearly different against bee

sasuke and itachi was both pushed back by bee's seven sword dance, the main difference is sasuke got hit while itachi didn't, sasuke was struck before he even charged back in,



IchLiebe said:


> He didn't keep up. Kabuto blitzed him and cut him in half. He stayed in susanoo and Kabuto tagged him a couple of times.  He only cut Kabuto because of ninjutsu.



You skipped the page where he cut kabutos horn off and clashed with his chakra scapels, needless to say itachi wasn't allowed to kill kabuto.



IchLiebe said:


> Hebi Sasuke's kenjutsu is overrated. He ain't shit.



This is false, sasuke has had very good kenjutsu since the start of part 2, he was able to pressure yamato with kenjutsu while yamato had sai and sakura for back up, deidara, he also struck madara.



IchLiebe said:


> Kakashi used a sword he never touched and was so huge Suigetsu had some trouble with it and used it to beat the 7 sevenswordsmen, cutting one in half. That alone puts him above Itachi in kenjutsu.



Kakashi is very skilled as well so i won't downplay him like you do itachi, but keeping up with sage powered kabuto, killer bee and pressuring another 3 tomoe sharingon user with a kunai while said user had the sword of kusanagi is a more impressive feat imo, and itachi also holds more skill with throwing the kunai as well.




Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> I'd say that Kakashi has just as many Kenjutsu feats as Itachi.
> 
> -Zabuza
> -Kakuzu AND Hidan (At the same time...)
> ...



All very good feats for kakashi, but i really wouldn't see why itachi wouldn't be able to replicate them, i see them as close equals but i edge itachi when it comes to kenjutsu and cqc because he retains a speed advantage, and his fast hand seals allows him to pressure his opponents with his clones and not just feint them.

kakashi has the versatility advantage tho i give him that, kakashi always been versatile from jump


----------



## Ryuzaki (Sep 23, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> 1.His kunai skill blind sided pains summons
> 
> 2. he took on killer bee with a kunai and came out unharmed, not like he harmed bee either but being able to dance with bee and not get hit is a extremly good feat as bee is most likely the best swordsman in the manga.
> 
> ...


Itachi was running away from Killer Bee, the moment that sword style came out, he wasn't having any of that. But Kakashi's practiced with and fought against swordsmen of equal caliber or stronger. He's had better showing and more versatile feats (e.g. using chains, enhancing his techniques with lightning ninjutsu) of kenjutsu than Itachi has. Just be shear showtime, Kakashi has Itachi beat in that category.

Itachi's only advantage solely rests in his ability to utilize genjutsu, which prior to the Obito fight, was a much wider gap and has decreased since then. But it's still an advantage due to his expertise in it as about as solid as Kakashi's advantage in ninjutsu.


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 23, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> the manga claims different,
> 
> (1)
> 
> it states itachi shurikens where able to hit even the blind spots, it doesn't state itachi was only successful because he blindsided the summons, kabuto clearly hypes itachi shuriken skills and i rather go with paraphrasing the author then the opinion of a bias poster any day of the week.



He wasn't paying attention to Itachi at all. He didn't attack him and was focused on the jins. Saying anything other than that is stupid. How could he fight two people of that calibur while tracking Itachi, who was hidden somewhere, and account for everything. 



> Bee stopped to write a rhyme while he was fighting sasuke, and in addition sasuke had back up, he didn't remotely show the same focus, itachi also dodged a sneak attack from bee and bee had samhada vs itachi there performances where clearly different against bee



Bee dodged Itachi's sneak attack, not the other way around. Samehada means jack shit as Itachi didn't tangle with it at all. Sasuke and Suigetsu both got trashed in kenjutsu.



> sasuke and itachi was both pushed back by bee's seven sword dance, the main difference is sasuke got hit while itachi didn't, sasuke was struck before he even charged back in,



The main difference is Sasuke charged while Itachi didn't. If Itachi did the same would've happened to him.



> You skipped the page where he cut kabutos horn off and clashed with his chakra scapels, needless to say itachi wasn't allowed to kill kabuto.



You skipped the page where Kabuto states he forgot he had a horn. So obviously he didn't take it into account when dodging and with anyone else it would be a miss by quite a bit (not everyone has horns). And he also used ninjutsu to help land it.

Itachi only blocked an attack. No kenjutsu about it. It literally didn't take any skill. All he had to do was have good reactions. There was no prolonged scuffle or any kenjutsu moves. How about when Itachi got stabbed or cut in half. 



> This is false, sasuke has had very good kenjutsu since the start of part 2, he was able to pressure yamato with kenjutsu while yamato had sai and sakura for back up, deidara, he also struck madara.



Proof? Yamato has never shown great kenjutsu or taijutsu. Sai blocked Sasuke perfectly and countered him and Sasuke used Chidori nagashi to stop him. Deidara isn't a taijutsu or kenjutsu fighter and Sasuke only pressured him because of speed, not skill. He hit a blind Madara, 300 chapters after the Sasuke we're talking about. You're comparing Hebi Sasuke to EMS Sasuke.



> Kakashi is very skilled as well so i won't downplay him like you do itachi, but keeping up with sage powered kabuto, killer bee and pressuring another 3 tomoe sharingon user with a kunai while said user had the sword of kusanagi is a more impressive feat imo, and itachi also holds more skill with throwing the kunai as well.



He didn't keep up with Kabuto. He got tagged multiple times and only "won" because of EMS Sasuke.




> All very good feats for kakashi, but i really wouldn't see why itachi wouldn't be able to replicate them, i see them as close equals but i edge itachi when it comes to kenjutsu and cqc because he retains a speed advantage, and his fast hand seals allows him to pressure his opponents with his clones and not just feint them.
> 
> kakashi has the versatility advantage tho i give him that, kakashi always been versatile from jump



Kakashi has kept up with Itachi in handseals. In their part 1 scuffle Kakashi couldn't "follow" his handseals but used the same amount of jutsu and covered the same distance as Itachi in the same amount of time (both used a bunshin and a suiton, and their real body's moved to advantageous spots). In the second skirmish Itachi used fireball, Kakashi used a doton, and a clone. Kakashi was never far from Itachi in speed and currently is atleast as fast although I believe Kakashi is faster as he showed reactions equal to RM Minato.


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 23, 2014)

Ryuzaki said:


> Itachi's only advantage solely rests in his ability to utilize genjutsu, which prior to the Obito fight, was a much wider gap and has decreased since then. But it's still an advantage due to his expertise in it as about as solid as Kakashi's advantage in ninjutsu.



Itachi only wins on hype in genjutsu. In feats, IN BASE, Kakashi wins out. He knocked out 2 ANBU in 2-3 panels with his base sharingan genjutsu. Itachi has never shown anything close.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Sep 23, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Itachi only wins on hype in genjutsu. In feats, IN BASE, Kakashi wins out. He knocked out 2 ANBU in 2-3 panels with his base sharingan genjutsu. Itachi has never shown anything close.



And this is where i stop debating with you, you think kakashi is better then itachi at genjutsu   



clearly if you believe this, it's pointless to argue with you.

good day sir


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 23, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> And this is where i stop debating with you, you think kakashi is better then itachi at genjutsu
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, don't. This is bullshit. Itachi fans keep bitching out on genjutsu fights because his "hype" is the only fucking thing he has outside Tsukiyomi. Show me some shit in base. Has he ever knocked anyone out with a base genjutsu? NOT ONCE IN THE ENTIRE MANGA. Kakashi knocked out 2 people with 1 sharingan at the same fucking time. How he even got his sharingan to knock out two people at once is beyond me, and here's the scan. 2 ANBU ROOT tasked with keeping SM Naruto in the village knocked out instantly by 1 sharingan Kakashi, fucking top that with FEATS.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Sep 23, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> No, don't. This is bullshit. Itachi fans keep bitching out on genjutsu fights because his "hype" is the only fucking thing he has outside Tsukiyomi. Show me some shit in base. Has he ever knocked anyone out with a base genjutsu? NOT ONCE IN THE ENTIRE MANGA. Kakashi knocked out 2 people with 1 sharingan at the same fucking time. How he even got his sharingan to knock out two people at once is beyond me, and here's the scan. 2 ANBU ROOT tasked with keeping SM Naruto in the village knocked out instantly by 1 sharingan Kakashi, fucking top that with FEATS.



Itachi has defeated a sanin level opponent with his base sharingon, and a kunai, orochimaru fear came just from itachi using 3 tomoe genjutsu on him. the same person who kakashi was to scared to take on back in part 1


itachi 3 tomoe genjutsu soloed deidara.



shouten a 30% clone itachi soloed naruto with finger genjutsu



Good day sir


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 23, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Itachi has defeated a sanin level opponent with his base sharingon, and a kunai, orochimaru fear came just from itachi using 3 tomoe genjutsu on him. the same person who kakashi was to scared to take on back in part 1



Paralyze=/=knocked out. 



> itachi 3 tomoe genjutsu soloed deidara.



Didn't knock him out.



> shouten a 30% clone itachi soloed naruto with finger genjutsu



It took a full 2/3 minutes before Itachi could get him close to being out. Kakashi knocked out 2 people instantly. Itachi's feats don't hold up here.

Again, Itachi has never knocked someone out with genjutsu. Kakashi did it against 2 people instantly with 1 sharingan using sharingan genjutsu. Sharingan genjutsu takes eye contact and he got 2 in 1 shot with 1 eye. Itachi can paralyze someone and they can break the genjutsu by spiking their chakra while Kakashi knocks them out instantly and they can't do a damn thing about it.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Sep 24, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Itachi only wins on hype in genjutsu. In feats, IN BASE, Kakashi wins out. He knocked out 2 ANBU in 2-3 panels with his base sharingan genjutsu. Itachi has never shown anything close.



Idk about that, I naturally give Itachi the go ahead in genjutsu, but not on hype. Itachi's demonstrated on a few occasions why he is the best genjutsu user in the manga. Kakashi can probably hold his own much like he did against Obito, but by no means is he better than Itachi at it.


----------



## Jagger (Sep 24, 2014)

This thread was confusing me until I realized it was made around the time Kakashi's power was above 98% of the characters.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Sep 24, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Paralyze=/=knocked out.


Paralyzing a sanin level opponent who has a decent rank in genjutsu > knocking out some fodder.



IchLiebe said:


> Didn't knock him out.


No but if nobody broke up the fight he would have killed himself that feat would have been much better then simply knocking out a fodder once again  



IchLiebe said:


> It took a full 2/3 minutes before Itachi could get him close to being out. Kakashi knocked out 2 people instantly. Itachi's feats don't hold up here.


once again a 30 percent clone did that to a naruto who trained himself to resist genjutsu, your bringing up 2 fodder shinobi who naruto and everybody else itachi used genjutsu on is clearly above, where was kakashi genjutsu skills when he faced orchimaru? or deidara? don't worry ill wait.




IchLiebe said:


> Again, Itachi has never knocked someone out with genjutsu. Kakashi did it against 2 people instantly with 1 sharingan using sharingan genjutsu. Sharingan genjutsu takes eye contact and he got 2 in 1 shot with 1 eye. Itachi can paralyze someone and they can break the genjutsu by spiking their chakra while Kakashi knocks them out instantly and they can't do a damn thing about it.



your brining up kakashi knocking out 2 fodder, where is kakashi's genjutsu prowess vs real characters? kabuto put a whole stadium to sleep using genjutsu but you don't here anybody spouting the none sense you are, feats, hype, and the data book all disagree with you


when kakashi reverses a genjutsu from kurenai a master genjutsu user herself with a simple glance then we can talk.


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 24, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Paralyzing a sanin level opponent who has a decent rank in genjutsu > knocking out some fodder.



Orochimaru hasn't shown anything in genjutsu. He's actually shown to be very weak against genjutsu. Sasuke beat him worse than Itachi.



> No but if nobody broke up the fight he would have killed himself that feat would have been much better then simply knocking out a fodder once again



Or there's the chance the person notices it's a genjutsu and breaks it. Against Kakashi they go instantly out and he can finish them however he wants.



> once again a 30 percent clone did that to a naruto who trained himself to resist genjutsu, your bringing up 2 fodder shinobi who naruto and everybody else itachi used genjutsu on is clearly above, where was kakashi genjutsu skills when he faced orchimaru? or deidara? don't worry ill wait.



30% means jack shit. It just means he couldn't use all his jutsu because he didn't have enough chakra. The genjutsu he used cost the same amount of chakra no matter what. Naruto has literally never broke a genjutsu. I can train to run in the Olympics, Usain Bolt is still going beat my ass. And Naruto stayed up and put up a fight against the genjutsu. 

They can be fodder and it still be a good feat. This isn't a taijutsu bout or anything. This is Kakashi knocking out 2 ninja's instantly without them being able to resist. Kakashi can do that to anyone as the feat stands no matter what. If he punched two fodders out then you could say it, but in a genjutsu thing you can't. Same way if Itachi knocked out a fodder or did any of his genjutsu feats on a fodder, you would use it because it would still be viable.




> your brining up kakashi knocking out 2 fodder, where is kakashi's genjutsu prowess vs real characters? kabuto put a whole stadium to sleep using genjutsu but you don't here anybody spouting the none sense you are, feats, hype, and the data book all disagree with you



Kabuto put civilians asleep. Every ninja (except some genins) broke it way before they went out. It also wasn't instantly. It took 10 or so seconds.



> when kakashi reverses a genjutsu from kurenai a master genjutsu user herself with a simple glance then we can talk.



He actually used handseals and everything but whatever. Call me when Itachi can knock 2 people out instantly at a glance with 1 sharingan.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 24, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Orochimaru hasn't shown anything in genjutsu. He's actually shown to be very weak against genjutsu. Sasuke beat him worse than Itachi.



And those fodder have ? 

Itachi taijutsu blitzed 3 Uchiha with 0 difficulty.

Conclusion : Itachi is a better taijutsu user than Gai.


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> And those fodder have ?
> 
> Itachi taijutsu blitzed 3 Uchiha with 0 difficulty.
> 
> Conclusion : Itachi is a better taijutsu user than Gai.



. It's a genjutsu. If it took them 5 seconds to pass out then you and him would have merit to saying it's fodder, however it was INSTANTLY. Meaning their was no time to do jack shit like break it. Meaning if he did that to fucking Itachi, Itachi would go out because he wouldn't have time to defend or counter it.

Exactly the reason here. We don't know how fast the Uchiha's are. We don't know how good they are in taijutsu. In the genjutsu feat, none of that matters. They were put in a genjutsu and instantly went out. It doesn't matter how fast they are, how skilled they are, or anything.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 24, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> . It's a genjutsu. If it took them 5 seconds to pass out then you and him would have merit to saying it's fodder, however it was INSTANTLY. Meaning their was no time to do jack shit like break it. Meaning if he did that to fucking Itachi, Itachi would go out because he wouldn't have time to defend or counter it.
> 
> Exactly the reason here. We don't know how fast the Uchiha's are. We don't know how good they are in taijutsu. In the genjutsu feat, none of that matters. They were put in a genjutsu and instantly went out. It doesn't matter how fast they are, how skilled they are, or anything.



Lol let me get this straight.

So you are saying that being able to knock out 2 fodder with genjutsu translates into being able to do the same to everyone else ?

Ok, fair enough.

Itachi was able to taijutsu blitz 3 Uchiha @ the same time. It took an instant for him to do that. That means he can take out Madara, Sasuke and Obito with taijutsu too, all at the same in an instant.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 24, 2014)

Only Rikudou Kakashi is defeating Itachi.
Itachi wrecks any other version, especially the current one.


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Lol let me get this straight.
> 
> So you are saying that being able to knock out 2 fodder with genjutsu translates into being able to do the same to everyone else ?
> 
> ...



.

Kakashi INSTANTLY knocks out 2 people with genjutsu. In genjutsu, everyone gets a chance. If you suck at genjutsu then you're fucked, however if you're good, you break it. Look at every genjutsu ever used.

Itachi against Kurenai, she had time to break it.
Itachi against Naruto, he had time to break it.
Itachi against Kakashi, he had time to break it.
Itachi against Deidara, he had time to break it.
Itachi against Orochimaru, he had time to break it.
Itachi against Sasuke, he had time to break it.
Kabuto at the chunnin exams, everyone had time to break it.
Sasuke against Deidara, he had time to break it.
Sasuke against Orochimaru, he had time to break it.
Frog Song against Pain, HE HAD TIME TO BREAK IT.

Literally everytime, they have a chance to break it. Here the fodder didn't. They instantly went out so against anyone else, they instantly go out.

Itachi "blitz'd" three Uchiha with unknown speed, unknown taijutsu skill, and unknown reflexes. AND IT WAS OFF PANEL. HUGE HUGE difference. 

In genjutsu everything stands, in taijutsu it depends on skill.
In genjutsu, if it takes 10 seconds to knock out a civilian, then it takes 10 seconds to do the same to Madara. However, Madara is more than likely to break it while the civilian can't. Against Kakashi, there is no time.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Sep 24, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> .
> 
> Kakashi INSTANTLY knocks out 2 people with genjutsu. In genjutsu, everyone gets a chance. If you suck at genjutsu then you're fucked, however if you're good, you break it. Look at every genjutsu ever used.
> 
> ...


Dude I think you are taking it too far, I agree Kakashi's excellence in genjutsu is something to behold but I don't think he's better than Itachi in the field. Kakashi's feat was shown to establish that he has some prowess in genjutsu in both occasions, however he's nowhere near Itachi using it start battles or in mid-battles with as much finesse as Itachi has shown. 

He lives up to his 4.0 until the Pre-War Arc and after fighting against Obtio and defeating him I would wager he is at 4.5, but in terms of skill, he's no where near talented as Itachi.That's just how their character was designed.


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 24, 2014)

Ryuzaki said:


> Dude I think you are taking it too far, I agree Kakashi's excellence in genjutsu is something to behold but I don't think he's better than Itachi in the field. Kakashi's feat was shown to establish that he has some prowess in genjutsu in both occasions, however he's nowhere near Itachi using it start battles or in mid-battles with as much finesse as Itachi has shown.
> 
> He lives up to his 4.0 until the Pre-War Arc and after fighting against Obtio and defeating him I would wager he is at 4.5, but in terms of skill, he's no where near talented as Itachi.That's just how their character was designed.



Itachi has hype. Sure he has the "best" genjutsu feats in the manga, but he has 90% of them. He has never knocked anyone out. Kakashi has. And in genjutsu that matters a lot. Obito kept a perfect jin under genjutsu for a long period of time and couldn't keep Kakashi in genjutsu. Yet that's a 4.5 in genjutsu? Feats>>>>Hype>>>>bullshit fans make up. Kakashi's feats win here. 

EDIT: I'm not saying Kakashi is going to do it mid fight or start with it. He doesn't use genjutsu really nor am I arguing he uses it here. I'm saying he has better BASE genjutsu than Itachi.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 24, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> .
> 
> Kakashi INSTANTLY knocks out 2 people with genjutsu. In genjutsu, everyone gets a chance. If you suck at genjutsu then you're fucked, however if you're good, you break it. Look at every genjutsu ever used.
> 
> ...



Ok I get you. Kakashi can defeat RS with genjutsu. Because he knocked out 2 fodder with it.

Itachi can defeat RS with taijutsu. Because he knocked out 3 Uchiha with 3 tomoe sharingan.

We are applying the same logic here. Don't understand what the fuss is about.


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Ok I get you. Kakashi can defeat RS with genjutsu. Because he knocked out 2 fodder with it.
> 
> Itachi can defeat RS with taijutsu. Because he knocked out 3 Uchiha with 3 tomoe sharingan.
> 
> We are applying the same logic here. Don't understand what the fuss is about.



Prove RS has the durability, speed, reactions, and taijutsu skill as those 3. 

Kakashi's genjutsu doesn't have any time to break it. Plain and simple.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 24, 2014)

Actually, most of the people at the CE had no time to break Kabuto's.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 24, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Prove RS has the durability, speed, reactions, and taijutsu skill as those 3.
> 
> Kakashi's genjutsu doesn't have any time to break it. Plain and simple.



Time is relative. It changes from person to person. 1 second can be a pretty short window for Konohomaru, but it is an eternity for Raikage because of his reaction speed.

And those fodder got knocked out in 1 panel because they are fodder, not because of the speed of Kakashi's genjutsu. Just like how Itachi off paneled 3 Uchiha with 0 difficulty. If they had better taijutsu, then obviously Itachi'd have a harder time.

Same applies to Kakashi, and the fodder he knocked out. 


But if you want me to prove what you asked me to, why don't you start off by proving to me that those fodder kakashi knocked out have better genjutsu prowess, intelligence and chakra control than Ebisu ?


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 24, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Actually, most of the people at the CE had no time to break Kabuto's.



Several panels passed. Note the ANBU and random ninja already broke it in the second scan.


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Time is relative. It changes from person to person. 1 second can be a pretty short window for Konohomaru, but it is an eternity for Raikage because of his reaction speed.



No. Sure raikage has faster reactions but that doesn't mean he perceives everything going slower.

Also, are you saying Ei can break Tsukiyomi because 1 second takes a long time for him?



> And those fodder got knocked out in 1 panel because they are fodder, not because of the speed of Kakashi's genjutsu. Just like how Itachi off paneled 3 Uchiha with 0 difficulty. If they had better taijutsu, then obviously Itachi'd have a harder time.



Off paneled, we have no idea how good a fight they put up or anything. Those fodder got knocked out because Kakashi's genjutsu is that good.



> Same applies to Kakashi, and the fodder he knocked out.



Nope. We saw everything between Kakashi and the fodder. Itachi's feat is off paneled so we know nothing of their taijutsu feats.



> But if you want me to prove what you asked me to, why don't you start off by proving to me that those fodder kakashi knocked out have better genjutsu prowess, intelligence and chakra control than Ebisu ?



I don't have to. Kakashi's genjutsu knocked out two people instantly. Their genjutsu skill means nothing because they didn't have time to break it. 

Basically the same as this feat. It tells us Sasuke is fast. Except here we can say people with better reactions fair better because they can see it coming and dodge or counter. However in the genjutsu when they were put under genjutsu, they instantly went out and had no time to break it.


----------



## Pocalypse (Sep 24, 2014)

Why are people arguing Kakashi's Genjutsu vs Itachi's? Just look at the opponents Itachi has faced compared to Kakashi. Itachi has a much better record than anything Kakashi has shown. Wtf? This shouldn't even be a debate.


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 24, 2014)

Say you use the same genjutsu on two people. This genjutsu is one potent enough to knock someone out. Say the one Itachi used on Naruto in beginning of part 2.

The first person is Itachi.

The second person is Kurenai's baby.

What happens to each? How long does it take for the genjutsu to knock them out. And I mean exactly the same as he did to Naruto. Does the baby just go out because it's in a genjutsu? No, Itachi has to put it out like he tried against Naruto. He tried to choke Naruto out there and Naruto resisted but was going out. Itachi would break it. The baby wouldn't put up resistance and go out before Naruto did. However it would still take time as Itachi would have to choke him out in the genjutsu like he tried against Naruto.

The reason Tsukiyomi is so dangerous is because you can get a full genjutsu that lasts 72 hours to happen instantly and there's no time to break it. It's the same for Kakashi (not saying he used Tsukiyomi. I'm saying he can knock them out instantly. Not make 1 second take 72 hours in his genjutsu which is far more dangerous as you can experience a lot more trauma there).


----------



## Pocalypse (Sep 24, 2014)

Jeez, what the hell has Kurenai's baby done to you? Kind of a sick mind don't you think? Using babies as examples as something to choke out. 

Anyway, doesn't change my point. Kakashi knocked 2 fodders out, yes they were fodder. He's not going to be able to knock out any ninjas of the caliber Itachi faced with his Genjutsu, Kakashi will have to implement the same thing as well. The difference is the level of opponents. Itachi can already catch most of the high tier based characters with just his base Sharingan Genjutsu.


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 24, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> Jeez, what the hell has Kurenai's baby done to you? Kind of a sick mind don't you think? Using babies as examples as something to choke out.



I couldn't think of any fodders name .



> Anyway, doesn't change my point. Kakashi knocked 2 fodders out, yes they were fodder. He's not going to be able to knock out any ninjas of the caliber Itachi faced with his Genjutsu, Kakashi will have to implement the same thing as well. The difference is the level of opponents. Itachi can already catch most of the high tier based characters with just his base Sharingan Genjutsu.



Why? Why won't it knock anyone else out? This genjutsu knocks people out instantly and gives them no chance to break aka Tsukiyomi without the 72 hours. WHY WOULDN'T IT? Name one reason the same genjutsu used on the fodder wouldn't knock Itachi out at the same speed.

And I'm not saying Kakashi uses it. I'm saying his base genjutsu is better than Itachi's base genjutsu. Not that he uses it on everyone.


----------



## Pocalypse (Sep 24, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Why? Why won't it knock anyone else out? This genjutsu knocks people out instantly and gives them no chance to break aka Tsukiyomi without the 72 hours. WHY WOULDN'T IT? Name one reason the same genjutsu used on the fodder wouldn't knock Itachi out at the same speed.
> 
> And I'm not saying Kakashi uses it. I'm saying his base genjutsu is better than Itachi's base genjutsu. Not that he uses it on everyone.



I just told you, the level of the opponents. You think that just because Kakashi can knock out 2 fodders with his Genjutsu instantly, this can apply to any other character regardless of their level. If it was that easy then he would be knocking all of his opponents out with his Genjutsu since you are making it seem like it?s a one-hit KO technique for everyone. Why go through the trouble of fighting when Kakashi has this ?instant one-hit technique? that can knock anyone out?


----------



## Semiotic Sacrilege (Sep 24, 2014)

Ryuzaki said:


> Dude I think you are taking it too far, I agree Kakashi's excellence in genjutsu is something to behold but I don't think he's better than Itachi in the field. Kakashi's feat was shown to establish that he has some prowess in genjutsu in both occasions, however he's nowhere near Itachi using it start battles or in mid-battles with as much finesse as Itachi has shown.
> 
> He lives up to his 4.0 until the Pre-War Arc and after fighting against Obtio and defeating him I would wager he is at 4.5, but in terms of skill, he's no where near talented as Itachi.That's just how their character was designed.



This ^^^ 

I think Kakashi has shown against Itachi in part two and Obito in the war arc that Itachi won't be tricking or finishing off Kakashi very easily with Genjutsu. I don't think it's a question that Itachi is more skilled in Genjutsu overall though. It's kinda his thing...

Genjutsu:
Itachi>Kakashi

Taijutsu:
Itachi=Kakashi

Ninjutsu:
Itachi<Kakashi

Speed:
Itachi=Kakashi

Intelligence:
Itachi<Kakashi

Stamina:
Itachi<Kakashi


Is how I see it. To be clear, Itachi is above Kakashi in Genjutsu but Kakashi can hold his own in that field. Just like I'd put Kakashi above Itachi in Ninjutsu but Itachi could still hold his own there as well. I think Kakashi has shown a big improvement to his Stamina in the war arc (and not from the chakra boosts). This will help him out against Itachi but it's not a huge factor. I think they are more or less even in Taijutsu and Speed. I don't think either one of them is going to win based on an advantage in these categories. 

The biggest factor that sets them apart is Kakashi's Intelligence in my opinion. Itachi is certainly not dumb. He's probably one of the smartest in the manga... but Kakashi is smarter. Unlike Genjutsu or Ninjutsu where you can mitigate an advantage by being skilled in that same category, when you're smarter... that's it. Kakashi is going to outsmart Itachi. Itachi can counter Kakashi's plans better than most, but Kakashi is always going to be at least one step ahead. Intelligence encompasses all the other categories. It's not just about skill... it's about using your abilities to their fullest potential and using them together.

Just how I see it at least.


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 24, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> I just told you, the level of the opponents. You think that just because Kakashi can knock out 2 fodders with his Genjutsu instantly, this can apply to any other character regardless of their level. If it was that easy then he would be knocking all of his opponents out with his Genjutsu since you are making it seem like it?s a one-hit KO technique for everyone. Why go through the trouble of fighting when Kakashi has this ?instant one-hit technique? that can knock anyone out?



His genjutsu was instant. The mechanics of genjutsu show that the same would happen to anyone he used that same genjutsu on. Put anyone in place of those fodder and they go out.

The level of opponent mean nothing. Do you think a bigger chakra pool, or more talent magically makes the genjutsu lasts longer so you have time to break it? No, it don't give a shit about your skill, chakra pool, level, or tier. 

Plot obviously. Why did Naruto blitz Kaguya at the beginning of the fight? He showed he could do it. Why didn't he blitz her the entire time?


----------



## Pocalypse (Sep 24, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> His genjutsu was instant. The mechanics of genjutsu show that the same would happen to anyone he used that same genjutsu on. Put anyone in place of those fodder and they go out.
> 
> The level of opponent mean nothing. Do you think a bigger chakra pool, or more talent magically makes the genjutsu lasts longer so you have time to break it? No, it don't give a shit about your skill, chakra pool, level, or tier.
> 
> Plot obviously. Why did Naruto blitz Kaguya at the beginning of the fight? He showed he could do it. Why didn't he blitz her the entire time?



Level of opponents mean nothing? Are you serious? So you think Kakashi can knock out a Jinchuuriki with his Genjutsu then? Even when a Jin can break out from it due to the help of the Bijuu? Your logic is retarded if you don?t take the opponent?s level into consideration. I take it you agree that Itachi can beat 8th Gated Gai then in Taijutsu, because Itachi has shown to kick his opponents quiet far, Gai?s Taijutsu level shouldn?t be taken into consideration, right? His Genjutsu is instant against fodder, nothing else. 

Naruto couldn?t blitz Kaguya, certain factors like resolve and shit helped him in taking off Kaguya?s arm. This has nothing to do with what I?m saying, I?m not the one going around and saying a successful attack on one person applies to everyone else in the series because that?s just stupid. As I said, if Kakashi was this so spectacular at Genjutsu then he wouldn?t need to use his other abilities, he can just go around and one-shot everyone with his omnifuckingpresent Genjutsu that he seems to have, but he doesn?t.


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 24, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> Level of opponents mean nothing? Are you serious? So you think Kakashi can knock out a Jinchuuriki with his Genjutsu then? Even when a Jin can break out from it due to the help of the Bijuu? Your logic is retarded if you don?t take the opponent?s level into consideration. I take it you agree that Itachi can beat 8th Gated Gai then in Taijutsu, because Itachi has shown to kick his opponents quiet far, Gai?s Taijutsu level shouldn?t be taken into consideration, right? His Genjutsu is instant against fodder, nothing else.
> 
> Naruto couldn?t blitz Kaguya, certain factors like resolve and shit helped him in taking off Kaguya?s arm. This has nothing to do with what I?m saying, I?m not the one going around and saying a successful attack on one person applies to everyone else in the series because that?s just stupid. As I said, if Kakashi was this so spectacular at Genjutsu then he wouldn?t need to use his other abilities, he can just go around and one-shot everyone with his omnifuckingpresent Genjutsu that he seems to have, but he doesn?t.



This is what happens when you argue against Itachi. Everyone throws bullshit examples around. I already explained the taijutsu examples above. Reactions, skill, and speed play into factor. But nonetheless look below. 

Answer this. Why can't someone break Tsukiyomi? It's a genjutsu. Any high tier should break it by what you say. So how come people say it's impossible to break?


----------



## Ryuzaki (Sep 24, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> This ^^^
> 
> I think Kakashi has shown against Itachi in part two and Obito in the war arc that Itachi won't be tricking or finishing off Kakashi very easily with Genjutsu. I don't think it's a question that Itachi is more skilled in Genjutsu overall though. It's kinda his thing...
> 
> ...


Basically, how I feel about comparing the two...I don't see the reason to comparing DMS Kakashi to anyone generally, because he was probably the strongest shinobi in the manga, outside of perhaps Kaguya and Rin'negnan Madara.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 24, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> No. Sure raikage has faster reactions but that doesn't mean he perceives everything going slower.


Thats what it is. When you are pumped with adrenaline, you get the sensation that time is slowing down. It actually isn't. 



> Also, are you saying Ei can break Tsukiyomi because 1 second takes a long time for him?


I didn't say that. I just gave it as an example to show the relativity concept of time.



> Off paneled, we have no idea how good a fight they put up or anything. Those fodder got knocked out because Kakashi's genjutsu is that good.


They got knocked out pretty fast, they obviously didn't put up a good fight, otherwise Itachi'd be hurt. 

No, those fodder got knocked out fast because they are fodder. 



> Nope. We saw everything between Kakashi and the fodder. Itachi's feat is off paneled so we know nothing of their taijutsu feats.
> 
> I don't have to. Kakashi's genjutsu knocked out two people instantly. Their genjutsu skill means nothing because they didn't have time to break it.


You don't seem to get it.
Admit it, you are ichliebe's mental brother who takes over during the day so thats why I feel like debating someone with single digit IQ. 

Look, those fodder got knocked out by genjutsu in 1 panel because they are fodder. Not because of Kakashi's genjutsu prowess.

If say Konohomaru defeats 2 fodder with taijutsu in 1 move, does that mean Konohomaru's taijutsu is better than Gai's or does that mean his taijutsu is *good relative to those fodder ? *

Thats the case with Kakashi.
Kakashi is good with genjutsu enough to knock out 2 fodder instantly. Big whoop-de-doo. Still shit compared to Itachi's worst feat.



> Basically the same as this feat. It tells us Sasuke is fast. Except here we can say people with better reactions fair better because they can see it coming and dodge or counter. However in the genjutsu when they were put under genjutsu, they instantly went out and had no time to break it.



Lol. Thanks for defeating your own argument. Yes, it is exactly the same. Sasuke's speed is godlike relative to that fodder. Just like how Raikage's speed is good like relative to Sasuke's own.

Kakashi's genjutsu prowess is god like relative to 2 fodder. Just like how Itachi's genjutsu prowess is godlike relative to Kakashi's own.


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 24, 2014)

Answer this, why is tsukiyomi so hard? Because it happens instantly right? Well Kakashi's genjutsu happened instantly right? So why would Kakashi's genjutsu suddenly take 30 seconds to effect Itachi or anyone? There's no logical reason it would. There's no reason in the manga that it would. There's nothing except you don't want it that way.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 24, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Answer this, why is tsukiyomi so hard? Because it happens instantly right?


No.



> Well Kakashi's genjutsu happened instantly right?


No.



> So why would Kakashi's genjutsu suddenly take 30 seconds to effect Itachi or anyone?


Because someone like Itachi can instantly break it without breaking a sweat.



> There's no logical reason it would. There's no reason in the manga that it would. There's nothing except you don't want it that way.



Lol back to square one. There is no logic in what you are trying to insinuate here.


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No.
> No.


 
How so?



> Because someone like Itachi can instantly break it without breaking a sweat.



It took time for him to switch Kurenai's back on her. No one has ever instantly broke a genjutsu.



> Lol back to square one. There is no logic in what you are trying to insinuate here.



Tell me how someone breaks his genjutsu when they don't have time to do it. Or are you going to say it takes longer because they are higher tier than fodder giving him time to break it?


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 24, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> How so?


Because Tsukiyomi takes an instant in the real world, but the experience lasts 72 hours in a dimension which Itachi can do anything to his victim.
Being instantaneous prevents outside interference, and 72 hours of torture results in death or coma. It also can't be dispelled unless you are an Uchiha. That is why it is scary.


Kakashi's genjutsu defeated them in an instant in real world, but we didn't see the exerience in their minds. 
Sasuke knocked out C in an instant too, but the genjutsu experience didn't last an instant.



> It took time for him to switch Kurenai's back on her. No one has ever instantly broke a genjutsu.


You just said Tsukiyomi is instant and guess what ? Sasuke broke it.



> Tell me how someone breaks his genjutsu when* they don't have time to do it.*



This is fanfiction.
Everybody has time to break a genjutsu.


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because Tsukiyomi takes an instant in the real world, but the experience lasts 72 hours in a dimension which Itachi can do anything to his victim.
> Being instantaneous prevents outside interference, and 72 hours of torture results in death or coma. It also can't be dispelled unless you are an Uchiha. That is why it is scary.
> 
> 
> ...





*Itachi gets stomped *


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because Tsukiyomi takes an instant in the real world, but the experience lasts 72 hours in a dimension which Itachi can do anything to his victim.
> Being instantaneous prevents outside interference, and 72 hours of torture results in death or coma. It also can't be dispelled unless you are an Uchiha. That is why it is scary.



Exactly. Itachi can make that 72 hours happen in an instant meaning there's nothing you can do because you can't break it. You can't spike your chakra and break it and there's no time for partner method. Even Kakashi said it affects you in an instant and there's nothing you can do to cancel the effects.



> Kakashi's genjutsu defeated them in an instant in real world, but we didn't see the exerience in their minds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------

