# 5 Itachis vs Gokage



## Ersa (Dec 2, 2014)

I hold no accountability for the motive of this thread. :ignoramus

*Location*: Five Kage vs Madara
*Distance*: 20m
*Knowledge*: Full
*Mindset*: Serious
*Restrictions*: None
*Conditions*: 
- Itachi is healthy with good eyesight.


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## ARGUS (Dec 2, 2014)

Itachs wreck them 

3 itachis alone are way too much for the gokage let alone 5


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## iJutsu (Dec 2, 2014)

Itachi's eyes will be dripping with blood, but not his own blood.


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## Bkprince33 (Dec 2, 2014)

Itachi soloes


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 2, 2014)

Itachi is 4 too many here.

Itachi soloes


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## Turrin (Dec 2, 2014)

Itachi's would be winning, but I don't see what they can do against Massive Jinton, I feel like the match would still end there.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 2, 2014)

Lightened Ei takes this in a flash.

Dealing with 25 V3 Susano Madara's > Dealing with 5 Living Itachi


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## Bloo (Dec 2, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Lightened Ei takes this in a flash.
> 
> *Dealing with 25 V3 Susano Madara's > Dealing with 5 Living Itachi*


I wouldn't say that. Madara was playing with them so much it was pathetic. Those Susano'o are not in the same league as Itachi's V4 Susano'o with Totsuka. Aside from PS Susano'o, Itachi's Susano'o seemingly was more lethal.

The Itachis overpower the Gokage pretty easily, in my opinion.


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## Turrin (Dec 2, 2014)

Bloo said:


> I wouldn't say that. Madara was playing with them so much it was pathetic. Those Susano'o are not in the same league as Itachi's V4 Susano'o with Totsuka. Aside from PS Susano'o, Itachi's Susano'o seemingly was more lethal.
> 
> The Itachis overpower the Gokage pretty easily, in my opinion.


How do Itachi's deal with Massive Jinton Cube?


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 2, 2014)

Bloo said:


> I wouldn't say that. Madara was playing with them so much it was pathetic. Those Susano'o are not in the same league as Itachi's V4 Susano'o with Totsuka. Aside from PS Susano'o, Itachi's Susano'o seemingly was more lethal.
> 
> The Itachis overpower the Gokage pretty easily, in my opinion.


Each of their V3 Susanos are literally the same size as his V4.

What made it more lethal than his V3? The fact that Itachi's Susano blade would've sealed Tsunade only? Then again, Tsunade was hit by the blades because 
1. She was fighting sloppy, which Ei confronted her about
2. She was individually outnumbered 5 to 1, as were all of the Kage

Lightened Ei shunshins around all of them casually, then you have Super Jinton Cube, Super Suiton Dragon, Lightened Sand (which pulled Edo Madara out of Susano casually) and 5% Katsuya to contend with. Itachi wouldn't be capable of downing lightened Ei unless they killed Onoki, which is impossible as he'd be on the elusive Ei's back.

Ei and Onoki can fight for hours, the healthiest version of Itachi wouldn't last half an hour in this level of battle, they'd have to have Susano up at all times.


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## Trojan (Dec 2, 2014)

The Kages still win.

Tsunade gives her chakra to Onoki, and he destroy all of them at the same time as he did with 25 of Madara's clones who were using their Susanoos.


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## LostSelf (Dec 2, 2014)

Being stomped by 5 featless Susano'o controlled by someone who wasn't serious =/=defeating Itachi's.

Each Itachi is superior to each kage. The 5 kage are fighting against 5 superior shinobis that won't hold back like Madara did.

Their only chances are lightened Ei or their huge Jinton cube. Aside from that, they will fall one by one.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 2, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Lightened Ei takes this in a flash.
> 
> Dealing with 25 V3 Susano Madara's > Dealing with 5 Living Itachi



Newsflash, A can't destroy V4 Susano'o.

Also 25 v3 Madara's were clones and they were able to defeat goakge as individuals anyways, except for Onoki.


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## JuicyG (Dec 2, 2014)

Distance favors Itachi hard. That is all


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## Trojan (Dec 2, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Being stomped by 5 featless Susano'o controlled by someone who wasn't serious =/=defeating Itachi's.
> 
> Each Itachi is superior to each kage. The 5 kage are fighting against 5 superior shinobis that won't hold back like Madara did.
> 
> Their only chances are lightened Ei or their huge Jinton cube. Aside from that, they will fall one by one.



they weren't stomped, THEY stomped them. Also, if Madara was not serious with them, he wouldn't have used the Susanoo, but rather would have kept the clones without them. 

Also, even if we went with what you said that they were stomped, being stmped by 25 clones of MADARA who were using the Susanoo =/= being defeated by itachi who's SEVERAL tiers below madara's level. 

- Says you? Where was it ever implied that itachi is superior to anyone of them at all?


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 2, 2014)

Susanoo isn't getting through Gaara's defense

Gokage take this
Jinton GG


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## Deleted member 23 (Dec 2, 2014)

Turrin said:


> How do Itachi's deal with Massive Jinton Cube?



Yata mirror. 1 Itachi is more than enough for the gokages


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## Turrin (Dec 2, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Being stomped by 5 featless Susano'o controlled by someone who wasn't serious =/=defeating Itachi's.
> 
> Each Itachi is superior to each kage. The 5 kage are fighting against 5 superior shinobis that won't hold back like Madara did.
> 
> Their only chances are lightened Ei or their huge Jinton cube. Aside from that, they will fall one by one.



Gaara, Tsunade, Ei, and Onoki are at least around Itachi's strength, with Stone-Will Onoki at the very least being extremely close to Itachi (if not stronger). Mei is the only one who can be argued to be an entire "level" down from Itachi, though personally that is not something I believe, as I think Mei simply gets underestimated. However I would agree that 5 Itachi collectively are ahead of the Gokage in individual might. 

If each Gokage squared off against an Itachi 1v1 than Itachi's would likely win, as Itachi would beat Mei (even by my estimate of Mei's abilities) much more often than not. Itachi would beat Ei more often not and being a good counter to Tsunade he'd beat her more often than not (unless we gave her Pain-Arc Byakugou Chakra, in which case I lean closer to Tsunade). Gaara vs Itachi could go ether way, as Gaara has the right knowledge and abilities to make him a good match up against Itachi,  Stone Will Onoki vs Itachi could also probably go ether way, though I lean towards Onoki slightly. So in the end it would probably be 3 Itachi vs Onoki and Gaara, even if they managed to beat their Itachi's, and they'd loose in that instances. 

However the problem is this isn't individual match ups, rather it's a team battle, and in a team battle a bunch of clones aren't going to open up the possibility for hax combinations the same way unique characters that bring their own unique abilities to the table are. Hence why Team Gokage has access to combinations that team Itachi can't handle.



klad said:


> Yata mirror. 1 Itachi is more than enough for the gokages


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## Trojan (Dec 2, 2014)

Onoky alone was able to make all 5 clones extremely heavy that they can't move, so he was able to solo them even without any help from the others. 

At 20m, tell me how A is not speedblitzing him, when Minato got almost a punch to the face. 
Mei can use her Mist as she did against madara, and that's would make more than half of itachi's arsenal useless.
(All Genjutsu and Amatersu)


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## Corax (Dec 2, 2014)

5 Itachi should win. Amaterasu is a so-so jutsu,but if it lands for example on Tsunade/Mei they ll be put down. Oonoki on A might get away with their speed,but two of them against 5 wont make it.


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## Trojan (Dec 2, 2014)

Amatersu is useless. Gaara can protect them with his sand as he was covering his sister and brother.
Even though I can't believe people still take that shit seriously.


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## JuicyG (Dec 2, 2014)

Itachi is stronger individually than the Gokage. He can probably still 50/50 them with 3 Itachi's, all healthy. Minato can probably get em' with 2 though


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 2, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Newsflash, A can't destroy V4 Susano'o.
> 
> Also 25 v3 Madara's were clones and they were able to defeat goakge as individuals anyways, except for Onoki.


Ei casually opens it like a tin can with super weighted rock raiton chop, turning Itachi into tuna. 

They didn't defeat a single Kage individually. Not that that matters, the Gokage, as a collective unit, are supremely stronger with their combination attacks than they are fighting multiple enemies individually. Proof in their Raiton Sand Suiton Dragon, Super Jinton Cube, Weightless A, Weightless Sand, and their air combination attack chemistry.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 2, 2014)

Actually Itachi is only stronger than Tsunade and Mei.

Ohnok Jintons right off the bat
Gaara blocks him and outlast
Ay just outlasts. Or drop him like he dropped Sasuke


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## LostSelf (Dec 2, 2014)

Hussain said:


> they weren't stomped, THEY stomped them. Also, if Madara was not serious with them, he wouldn't have used the Susanoo, but rather would have kept the clones without them.





You see this? Those are Gaara and Mei in the floor, helpless.



This? This is Tsunade collapsing and Ei falling.



You see those dots in front of Madara's Susano'o? Those dots are Tsunade, Gaara and Mei helpless in the floor? And what's Madara doing? Nothing. What could he have done there? He could've slaughtered Gaara, Mei and Tsunade considering they could barely stand up, as shown here:



Yes, they were stomped and only survived because Madara let them. Like almost the entire fight.



> Also, even if we went with what you said that they were stomped, being stmped by 25 clones of MADARA who were using the Susanoo =/= being defeated by itachi who's SEVERAL tiers below madara's level.



This is not Madara. Those are Mokubunshins that weren't even trying as i showed you above.



> - Says you? Where was it ever implied that itachi is superior to anyone of them at all?



Ask Orochimaru, Tsunade's equal, who is around that level, that called Itachi am impossible dream, and was one panelled when Itachi was blind and dead. I am pretty sure that if we go through portrayals, Itachi's would put theirs to shame.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 2, 2014)

Edo Itachi's portrayal is higher
Sick Itachi's isn't

The Gokage forced Madara to use his full power. Even though he was kidding it's bigger than anything Sick Itachi has shown


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## LostSelf (Dec 2, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Edo Itachi's portrayal is higher
> Sick Itachi's isn't
> 
> The Gokage forced Madara to use his full power. Even though he was kidding it's bigger than anything Sick Itachi has shown



Almost dead Itachi was said to be able to kill Hebi Sasuke if he wanted and the difference between them was big enough for Itachi to guide the fight at his own will without Sasuke noticing.

Hebi Sasuke was or in the level of Deidara, or above Deidara, who was not far from Onoki or was in the level of Onoki. (Some could consider Hebi Sasuke to be above Orochimaru because he absorbed his powers).

And there you have the strongest of the Gokage being below, or at best tied with sick Itachi by portrayal. Not to mention the healthy one.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 2, 2014)

Three Itachis could pull this off. Five of them would slaughter the five Kage, since Itachi is head and shoulders above them all individually.


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## sabre320 (Dec 2, 2014)

The gokages only chance is the dynamic duo of a and oonoki ...oonoki lightens a and rides his mighty steed at turbo v2 lightning speed that dodges any of itachis attacks...while oonoki can jinton the itachis.....wait a minute..thats a awesome strategy...itachi is helpless against this brilliant fusion...the dynamic duo takes this!


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## Nikushimi (Dec 2, 2014)

Sadly, super speed and Jinton won't save them from a good ol' clone switch followed by a blindside attack.


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## sabre320 (Dec 2, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Sadly, super speed and Jinton won't save them from a good ol' clone switch followed by a blindside attack.



Itachis fastest attack is amaterasu...a side stepped amaterasu at point blank range with v2 this ones even faster..jinton can eliminate the sussanos and has good aoe and range the dynamic duo are legit


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## iJutsu (Dec 2, 2014)

As fast as Ei is, he still got wrecked by a binding sharingan genjutsu. Itachi's version of Tsukuyomi would wreck all of them. Itachi can also do clones, so it's more like 10 Itachi vs Gokage. He doesn't even have to get close to them. A blindspot shuriken to the head will do the job.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 2, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Actually Itachi is only stronger than Tsunade and Mei.



Itachi is stronger than all five by a considerable margin.



> Ohnok Jintons right off the bat



Oonoki is as fast as Deidara; he is not getting attack priority on Itachi at any reasonable starting distance. Itachi will Genjutsu him and/or physically blitz and kick the living shit out of him and use him for throwing weapon target practice at close range, before Jinton can even be charged. Given that Obito had time to grab Sasuke and warp out of the Jutsu's AoE before it hit and Madara casually let it graze him, it's not unreasonable to say Itachi could probably just dodge it, anyway.



> Gaara blocks him and outlast



Gaara is proven unable to block the Magatama and Susano'o in general by himself. He also has no defense against Genjutsu.



> Ay just outlasts.



A gets clone feinted and attacked from behind.



sabre320 said:


> Itachis fastest attack is amaterasu...a side stepped amaterasu at point blank range with v2 this ones even faster..jinton can eliminate the sussanos and has good aoe and range the dynamic duo are legit



Meaningless if Itachi just clone switches and blindsides them. Can't dodge what you can't see.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 2, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Almost dead Itachi was said to be able to kill Hebi Sasuke if he wanted and the difference between them was big enough for Itachi to guide the fight at his own will without Sasuke noticing.



Ok and? Anyone could do thay



> Hebi Sasuke was or in the level of Deidara, or above Deidara, who was not far from Onoki or was in the level of Onoki. (Some could consider Hebi Sasuke to be above Orochimaru because he absorbed his powers).


Ohnoki is above Deidara that should be obvious. 
And so what about Orochimaru?



> And there you have the strongest of the Gokage being below, or at best tied with sick Itachi by portrayal. Not to mention the healthy one.


How so?


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 2, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi is stronger than all five by a considerable margin.


Nope he's not



> Oonoki is as fast as Deidara; he is not getting attack priority on Itachi at any reasonable starting distance. Itachi will Genjutsu him and/or physically blitz and kick the living shit out of him and use him for throwing weapon target practice at close range, before Jinton can even be charged. Given that Obito had time to grab Sasuke and warp out of the Jutsu's AoE before it hit and Madara casually let it graze him, it's not unreasonable to say Itachi could probably just dodge it, anyway.


No he really cant. You need to be as fast as V2 Ei to dodge Jinton. Madara had to use the Rinnegan even he wasn't fast enough speed wise.



> Gaara is proven unable to block the Magatama and Susano'o in general by himself. He also has no defense against Genjutsu.


Nope. Wrong again
Madara's attacks are much more powerful than Itachi's. Magatama didn't all the way get through his defense. The scan was vague.




> A gets clone feinted and attacked from behind.


He flickers out of the way and smacks Itachi.




> Meaningless if Itachi just clone switches and blindsides them. Can't dodge what you can't see.


They can't do the same to him?


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## Nikushimi (Dec 3, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Nope he's not



Yes he is. He beat Orochimaru effortlessly, and that's something most of the five Kage can't do period. The five Kage aren't even on Itachi's level.

Kisame trumps most of the five Kage; he deferred to Itachi, too.



> No he really cant. You need to be as fast as V2 Ei to dodge Jinton. Madara had to use the Rinnegan even he wasn't fast enough speed wise.



Madara did dodge Jinton, though. He let it graze his armor off so he could show the Kage his Hashirama chestjob. And A doesn't have V2.



> Nope. Wrong again
> Madara's attacks are much more powerful than Itachi's.



His Susano'o wasn't shown to be any stronger than Itachi's. And each of his individual Magatama got through; Itachi can fire multiple Magatama attached in a ring.



> Magatama didn't all the way get through his defense. The scan was vague.



Um, there was nothing vague about it; the Magatama cracked the far side of Oonoki's stone golem, which was behind Gaara's sand shield.



> He flickers out of the way and smacks Itachi.



A doesn't have eyes in the back of his head, so that's not feasible.

The Raikage nearly crippled himself fighting a much less capable MS user who couldn't make clones. Itachi destroys him.



> They can't do the same to him?



Only Oonoki can use clones and Itachi can produce them faster. Oonoki is also completely useless outside of Jinton, offensively-speaking, so there is nothing his clones could accomplish anyway.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 3, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Yes he is. He beat Orochimaru effortlessly, and that's something most of the five Kage can't do period. The five Kage aren't even on Itachi's level.


He beat Orochimaru because he was careless. The 5 kage are above his level


> Kisame trumps most of the five Kage; he deferred to Itachi, too.


Nah



> Madara did dodge Jinton, though. He let it graze his armor off so he could show the Kage his Hashirama chestjob. And A doesn't have V2.


No he didn't dodge it, he got hit.
A doesn't have V2 really? 




> His Susano'o wasn't shown to be any stronger than Itachi's. And each of his individual Magatama got through; Itachi can fire multiple Magatama attached in a ring.


Yes it was. 
And so? 




> Um, there was nothing vague about it; the Magatama cracked the far side of Oonoki's stone golem, which was behind Gaara's sand shield.


Cracked. Yes not ripped through, but there were many fired so it possible Gaara's shield had blocked some



> A doesn't have eyes in the back of his head, so that's not feasible.


Neither does Itachi. And yes it is feasible.
[/QUOTE]The Raikage nearly crippled himself fighting a much less capable MS user who couldn't make clones. Itachi destroys him.[/QUOTE]
No he doesn't. Itachi doesn't have Enton coated Susanoo




> Only Oonoki can use clones and Itachi can produce them faster. Oonoki is also completely useless outside of Jinton, offensively-speaking, so there is nothing his clones could accomplish anyway.


Itachi is completely useless outside of Susanoo. But that doesn't matter and neither does your statement. They could accomplish many things.


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## Itachі (Dec 3, 2014)

Itachi wins. It's not easy though, I could still see Onoki getting off a Jinton. However, Itachi is superior to each of the Kage, except Ei, imo. With full knowledge, I think Itachi would take out Onoki first, since he has a one shot technique like Jinton. Still, the Gokage have Jinton and Hidden Mist Jutsu on their side, I don't think it's as big of a stomp as people are making it out to be. With full knowledge against 5 Itachis, I don't think that they are going to hold back. Even so, this is a massive advantage for Itachi since he's an avid Bunshin user, 5 real Itachis then a number of Karasu Bunshin gives him a substantial advantage.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 3, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Ei casually opens it like a tin can with super weighted rock raiton chop, turning Itachi into tuna.


evidence ? Or are you talking out of your ass as usual ?



> They didn't defeat a single Kage individually.


Ei was defeated.
Tsunade was in the verge of defeat.
Mei was defeated and Gaara was also a in bad shape and his words indicate that he'd be defeated soon as well.



> Not that that matters, the Gokage, as a collective unit, are supremely stronger with their combination attacks than they are fighting multiple enemies individually. Proof in their Raiton Sand Suiton Dragon, Super Jinton Cube, Weightless A, Weightless Sand, and their air combination attack chemistry.


No.
 Itachi can hit Onoki with Amaterasu when he is stationary in the process of being chakra pumped by Tsunade.

Madara was dicking around, Itachi won't. 
Itachi low difs.


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## ARGUS (Dec 3, 2014)

people are seriously not taking everything into perspective, as itachis win this comfortably

 - With the battle being 5v5, and iitachi being aware of their teamwork, he simply fights each of the gokage indiviidually, instead of fighting them as a team 

 - Tsunade and Mei are one shotted from amaterasu, especially when neither of them have the means to counter the jutsu,, and the jutsus constant burning effect, renders tsunades  byakugou useless, therefore once shes set ablaze, itachi uses V4 susanoo blade to behead her, 

 - Gaaras strongest defense was dented, by madaras YM, whereas Itachis V4 susanoo slashes were obliterating orochimarus hydra like butter, meaning that itachi uses his V4 totsuka blade to breach through gaaras defenses and seal him off, and with hi V4 having a large blade span, this is certainly happening, 

 - Now we have 3 fresh itachis, and 2 relatively fine itachis vs Onoki And Ay, where jinton is the only thing thats bypassing thier susanoos, and seeing how it leaves onoki wide open for amaterasu, just makes this not a good option, and with Onoki being on Ays back, this just allows itachis to vastly outnumber and outclass them with their susanoos and get them to catch Ay in a tsukuyomi and finish them off, 

 - With Ay down, Onoki gets set ablaze by amaterasu, regardless of what he does, and him attempting to close the distance to use weighted boulder is just suicide when itachi can easily keep track of his speed, and put him under a genjutsu, or just use susanoo slashes to butcher him in half


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## LostSelf (Dec 3, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Ok and? Anyone could do thay



Really? Like who? Gaara in the desert could not do it with Deidara, a significantly less powerfl Shinobi than Itachi. And even if we give Gaara the benefit of having to protect his village (something that only happened in the end), this doesn't match the notion that Itachi was less than one hour of dying. Let alone that Deidara was with Little clay and not going for the kill.

Tsunade, Mei and Onoki wouldn't be able to do the same. Ei is a maybe, but who knows how strong can a dying Ei be?



> Ohnoki is above Deidara that should be obvious.



Their showings are similar and they both fought like equals. And even if Onoki is above Deidara, the margin is minuscule. He is still below Sick Itachi.



> And so what about Orochimaru?



Orochimaru, Tsunade and Jiraiya's equal, around the Gokage's level individually. Being fodderzied along with his strongest jutsu by Itachi's agonizing corpse.

To be stomped by someone who is agonizing. THat alone should tell you the difference between Itachi and the people of Orochimaru's level. Call it Tsunade, Gaara, Onoki, Ei and Mei. And Hebi Sasuke _might_ be above Orochimaru.



> How so?



Explained above.


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## Icegaze (Dec 3, 2014)

depends if itachi decides to be a dick and start with ama, 2 or more kages die off that bat
the only person who can attack quicker than itachi can use ama is Ei.


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## Turrin (Dec 3, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Their showings are similar



In what universe is this even remotely true? Onoki's portrayal against Madara puts even Deidara's best showings to shame by a vast margin. He was countering Jutsu that were far beyond Deidara's pay grade and was praised by Uchiha Madara himself. 



> and they both fought like equals. And even if Onoki is above Deidara, the margin is minuscule. He is still below Sick Itachi


They both fought like equals LOL. They did not fight, period. Literally Onoki was about to Jinton Deidara instantly, and Akatsuchi stopped them, than they flew around each other for a bit and Kabuto summoned Deidara back before they could make a move against each other. You make it sound as if they had some grand equal fight until Kabuto ended the match, but literally they did nothing, and the only implication of how ether would have performed against the other is A) that Onoki would have fodderized him in the beginning if Akatsuchi didn't stop him and B) that Deidara throwing a C4 bomb would have obviously lost to atomizing lazer beam. Than later Deidara went on to be portrayed losing to the ambush squad in the war, while Onoki was the stand out among the Gokage against Edo-Madara.

Onoki's abilities are vastly better than Deidara's
Onoki's performances are vastly better then Deidara's
Onoki has stone-will and Deidara does not

I really fail to see how Deidara and Onoki flying around for a bit nullifies all of that, and makes them roughly equals, I really do.



> He is still below Sick Itachi.


And this is based on what exactly. Onoki was taking on Jutsu that are beyond Sick-Itachi's capabilities and he was winning against 5 Madara clones with similar abilities to Sick-Itachi, So I really see absolutely no compelling evidence for even Healthy/Edo-Itachi being above Onoki, let alone Sick-Itachi. Onoki and Itachi are the same level or Onoki is stronger.


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## sabre320 (Dec 3, 2014)

iJutsu said:


> As fast as Ei is, he still got wrecked by a binding sharingan genjutsu. Itachi's version of Tsukuyomi would wreck all of them. Itachi can also do clones, so it's more like 10 Itachi vs Gokage. He doesn't even have to get close to them. A blindspot shuriken to the head will do the job.



Wow you think itachis taking out gokage with shuriken.........ahan.. guess what a got caught in sharingan genjutsu while exhausted in v1 presuured by 5 madaras in a battefield of 25 sussanos with his attention diverted by tsunades plight of fighting 5 sussanos...a v2 enhanced a ya....with oonoki on his back guiding and helping ya..


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## sabre320 (Dec 3, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> people are seriously not taking everything into perspective, as itachis win this comfortably
> 
> - With the battle being 5v5, and iitachi being aware of their teamwork, he simply fights each of the gokage indiviidually, instead of fighting them as a team
> 
> ...



You do realise each kage was taking on 5 sussanos...gaara can keep his distance his sand could take 5 sussano swords.....and is fast enough to block enton..he flies out of range while carrying and defending the gokage mei casts mist....as cover...out of range oonoki charges giant inton or the a and oonoki backpack combo wreaks havoc as a lightened v2 a is faster then what itachi can handle itachis can only tank in sussano which jinton can pierce while onookis on a,s back especially while being supported by gaaras sand and meis mist


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 3, 2014)

ARGUS, Itachi does not make the decision to fight them individually. The Kage make that decision. What in the world would warrant them splitting up when their power super inflates with teamwork?

Lightened Ei can shunshin around all of his attacks and slap the Susanos around like dolls, for much longer than Itachi can manifest Susano and remain alive.

Healthy or not Healthy, his reserves are garbage. He can't maintain Susano for longer than five minutes. Ei+Onoki can easily fight for hours.


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 3, 2014)

Totsuka spam sealing?


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## ARGUS (Dec 3, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> You do realise each kage was taking on 5 sussanos...gaara can keep his distance his sand could take 5 sussano swords....


doesnt matter since those susanoos didnt breach his defenses, and are still weaker than V4 susanoo,, 
when his strongest defense sand was still  breached by Yasaka Magatama, certainly implies that Totsuka blade from V4 breaches through and seals him off, 




> .and is fast enough to block enton..


Which is nowhere near as fast as amaterasu 



> he flies out of range while carrying and defending the gokage


with his defense breached, and him being sealed, he is not protecting even himself, let alone the gokage as well 


> mei casts mist....as cover...


She gets one shotted by amaterasu before she does anything at all, 
especiallly when itachi only needs to look at her and shes set ablaze 



> out of range oonoki charges giant inton


It gets intercepted by amaterasu and he gets set on fiire, 
jinton is not being landed here 



> or the a and oonoki backpack combo wreaks havoc as a lightened v2 a is faster then what itachi can handle itachis can only tank in sussano which jinton can pierce while onookis on a,s back especially while being supported by gaaras sand and meis mist


Either A is using his own offense which anything above V2 susanoo can tank, 
or he is using added weight rock techniques which increase his mass and power but decrease his speed to attack itachi, which is good and all but all itachi needs to do is swing his blade and he gets caught within its vicinity, 
him being able to get caught by susanoos and put under genjutsu also takes him out, 

and Onoki firing jinnton is not happenning, when he needs Ay to evade it, and he cant form jinton at his back, and jinton is just getting interrrupted by amaterasu, before it even lands so he diies




DaVizWiz said:


> ARGUS, Itachi does not make the decision to fight them individually. The Kage make that decision. What in the world would warrant them splitting up when their power super inflates with teamwork?


Ok, 



> Lightened Ei can shunshin around all of his attacks and slap the Susanos around like dolls, for much longer than Itachi can manifest Susano and remain alive.


He still cant breach V4 susanoo, 
and whether itachi could track him or not, all he needs is to swing his blade the moment Ay attempts to close the distance, and Ay gets caught within its vicinity 



> Healthy or not Healthy, his reserves are garbage. He can't maintain Susano for longer than five minutes. Ei+Onoki can easily fight for hours.


Yet there are 5 itachis here, 
so 25mins are more than enough


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 4, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Really? Like who? Gaara in the desert could not do it with Deidara, a significantly less powerfl Shinobi than Itachi. And even if we give Gaara the benefit of having to protect his village (something that only happened in the end), this doesn't match the notion that Itachi was less than one hour of dying. Let alone that Deidara was with Little clay and not going for the kill.



These are different characters. Don't compare one to the other.
Part 2 Gaara is stronger than Hebi Sasuke. 
Deidara >= Hebi Sasuke


> Tsunade, Mei and Onoki wouldn't be able to do the same. Ei is a maybe, but who knows how strong can a dying Ei be?


What the hell are you talking about?




> Their showings are similar and they both fought like equals. And even if Onoki is above Deidara, the margin is minuscule. He is still below Sick Itachi.


Don't powerscale.
Deidara can actually beat Itachi. He has the capability to do so. Wanna know why? He doesn't have lightning.




> Orochimaru, Tsunade and Jiraiya's equal, around the Gokage's level individually. Being fodderzied along with his strongest jutsu by Itachi's agonizing corpse.
> 
> To be stomped by someone who is agonizing. THat alone should tell you the difference between Itachi and the people of Orochimaru's level. Call it Tsunade, Gaara, Onoki, Ei and Mei. And Hebi Sasuke _might_ be above Orochimaru.


Tsunade is above Orochimaru
So is Gaara, Ay, and Ohnoki
Maybe Mei but nope.





> Explained above.


Oh lol


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 4, 2014)

The thing about it is.
Gaara blocked 5 Susanoo swords >>> YM


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## Nikushimi (Dec 4, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> The thing about it is.
> Gaara blocked 5 Susanoo swords >>> YM



Clone Susano'o.

A stopped one with his bare hand.

A lost to base Killer B in the Lariat duel.

Base Killer B was restrained by Edo Nagato.

Itachi's Susano'o ripped Edo Nagato's arms off with a swing of its own.



Kazekage94 said:


> He beat Orochimaru because he was careless.



Itachi beat Orochimaru because of Genjutsu and a kunai (and the Totsuka Blade, the second time).



> The 5 kage are above his level



Hiruzen was stated to be the strongest of the five Kage, yet he admitted he probably couldn't beat Orochimaru. Orochimaru flat-out said Itachi was stronger.



> Nah



Kisame damn sure beats Mei, Tsunade, and Gaara.



> No he didn't dodge it, he got hit.



Madara said he allowed it to remove his clothing so he could show the Hashirama face. Implicit in that claim is that he controlled Jinton's ability to hit him.



> A doesn't have V2 really?



V2 is the dark tailed cloak. A is not a Jinchuuriki; he has neither V2 nor V1. His Jutsu is Raiton: Shunshin.



> Yes it was.



Prove it. You're wrong, but prove it. ck



> And so?



Three Magatama > one > Gaara's sand.



> Cracked. Yes not ripped through, but there were many fired so it possible Gaara's shield had blocked some



Either the Magatama vary hugely in velocity, which was not shown to be the case because they all impacted at about the same time, or they all penetrated and caused damage to the stone golem. Gonna go ahead and assume the latter.



> Neither does Itachi.



Itachi can clone feint; they can't.



> And yes it is feasible.



No it is not, because for the second time, they can't dodge what they can't see.



> No he doesn't. Itachi doesn't have Enton coated Susanoo



Itachi doesn't need it because he can clone feint and hit A with Amaterasu directly from behind.



> Itachi is completely useless outside of Susanoo. But that doesn't matter and neither does your statement.



Itachi can physically blitz and shred Oonoki with his bare hands, that's not useless.



> They could accomplish many things.



Oonoki's clones can't do jack shit because they can't use Jinton, which is Oonoki's only worthwhile offense against a ninja of this level.


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## Thunder (Dec 4, 2014)

I consider Itachi to be above the Gokage on an individual basis. Ōnoki may come out on top with Jinton in some scenarios. But I lean towards Itachi roughly eight times out of ten (on average) in the other match-ups. 

When you get down to it, Itachi's Mangekyō Sharingan provides high caliber offensive and defensive options. And many of these characters lack the versatility to counter them all.


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## LostSelf (Dec 4, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> These are different characters. Don't compare one to the other.



If he cannot do it, with a Bijuu for chara reserves, against a Deidara that's not going for the kill, he is not doing that to Hebi Sasuke while he is dying.



> Part 2 Gaara is stronger than Hebi Sasuke.



No, he is not. In the desert maybe.



> Deidara >= Hebi Sasuke



Deidara might've been in the level of Hebi Sasuke or below. The point is that a sick and dying Itachi played with that kind of level opponent while dying.



> What the hell are you talking about?



Answering what you are bringing. You said that Tsunade, Ei, Onoki and Mei can do what Itachi did to Hebi Sasuke. We've seen how an almost passing out Tsunade fights, she was helpless against Asura Path. We don't know how an almost death Ei, Onoki and Mei can fight.so you really have no base to asume they can replicate what Itachi did.



> Don't powerscale.
> Deidara can actually beat Itachi. He has the capability to do so. Wanna know why? He doesn't have lightning.



Tenten can actually beat Madara if she slashes his throat.



> Tsunade is above Orochimaru



No. She is in the level of Orochimaru without ET.



> So is Gaara, Ay, and Ohnoki



They are not above Orochimaru either. At best they are in the same tier.



> Maybe Mei but nope.



Maybe not. Mei is not above Orochimaru.

*@Turrin*: I see honestly no point on debating the same stuff all over again and once again about Deidara (And i am not the first one that heavily disagrees with your view on him). It's just won't go anywhere. I can actually play the same card and use Onoki's worst moments to damage his portrayal. Like how Gaara had to keep saving his ass against the Trollkage. How you said the fight would go even tells it.

But you get it. Our visions about Deidara are vastly different.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 4, 2014)

Itachi's will pick them off one by one.

What do you think Kage's will do when Itachi blindsides Mei or Tsunade right from the start ? It'll force Onoki or A or Gaara to force their hand to defend them, which will leave openings in their own defeses which Itachi can exploit.

Seriously, Itachi takes this eaaasssy.


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## Turrin (Dec 4, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> *@Turrin*: I see honestly no point on debating the same stuff all over again and once again about Deidara (And i am not the first one that heavily disagrees with your view on him). It's just won't go anywhere. I can actually play the same card and use Onoki's worst moments to damage his portrayal. Like how Gaara had to keep saving his ass against the Trollkage. How you said the fight would go even tells it.
> 
> But you get it. Our visions about Deidara are vastly different.


How is needing to be saved against Trollkage, after already having fought another Kage and before stone-will, anywhere near as bad as getting raped by the ambush-squad? If were comparing worst performances, Onoki is also ahead by a huge margin.

Besides that, my point wasn't simply towards their worst performances, it was also towards Onoki's best performance, being vastly better than Deidara's best performance, as well as Onoki's abilities and hype being well above Deidara's. The reason I bring up the ambush-squad battle was because you literally were speaking towards how Kishi portrayed the two in the war, you can't say well the fight stopped with both of them about to use some of their powerful jutsu so they are portrayed as equals in the war-arc, and than proceed to ignore the successive portrayal they both received. Sure when they met at turtle island it was unclear whether Onoki or Deidara was better as they were stopped from really going at it and Onoki's abilities were largely unknown, but than these things were clarified in the war, with Onoki receiving better portrayal, hype, and abilities in the war than Deidara has ever had; and that's not even going off Deidara's ambush-squad portrayal, but even Deidara's best portrayals are nowhere near what Onoki was doing against Madara.



> How you said the fight would go even tells it.


Again to me it's like you stopped considering anything ether showed beyond the turtle island encounter. Sure at that encounter we don't know how things would shake out, because we don't know Onoki's abilities well enough. If Onoki's Jinton remained in small cube shapes Deidara might have survived Onoki's initial Jinton or had a chance to get him with C4, before he could close the distance between himself and Deidara to hit him with the small Jinton cube. But the moment Kishi showed the cone-Jinton was a long-range blast it should have been extremely apparent that Deidara was fucked against that at the start of the battle and in their C4 vs Jinton clash. At the start of the battle how would Deidara avoid a large-beam of Jinton, which Onoki can wield towards him while moving at the same speeds as Deidara? In the C4 vs Jinton clash, C4 would be throw into a Jinton beam which would atomize it or Deidara himself would be atomized before being able to form the katsu-seal since Jinton-beam would be able to cross that distance much quicker due to it being a long-range beam.



> But you get it. Our visions about Deidara are vastly different.


If you don't want to discuss it that's fine, but than don't try to simply dismiss my points, on the basis that others don't agree with my evaluation of Deidara, instead of actually addressing my points, otherwise it just gives off the impression that you have no real answer to these points and are just trying to avoid them for that reason.


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## Icegaze (Dec 4, 2014)

I certainly agree with turin that onoki is easily a tier above deidara 
however onoki is the only kage that that can be said of in the gokage squad 

gaara still looses to deidara. so does Mei and tsunade

as for this match up again no one has any reasonable argument for why itachi doesnt light Mei and tsunade up once the match starts. only Ei is faster than said jutsu. so Ei can attack first however can only attack 1 itachi at a time, any of the other 4 can use amaterasu and murder the women 

or pick out onoki. if onoki dies at the star itachi steam rolls its not even debatable. 

if u think it is, try do a thread 5 or 4 itachis vs yonkage. no onoki!!! trust me they would die laughably


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 4, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> I certainly agree with turin that onoki is easily a tier above deidara
> however onoki is the only kage that that can be said of in the gokage squad


Umm no.
Ay has lightning for crying out loud. He literally can't be harmed unless by C3. He is too fast and literally smacks Deidara.

Tsunade will be a high difficulty match for Deidara.

C3 is useless against Gaara since it goes vertical. Gaara can kill Deidara long before he uses C4 and that's with no knowledge. Just give him killing intent. His other bombs are useless

Mei will be a mid difficulty match for Deidara.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 4, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> If he cannot do it, with a Bijuu for chara reserves, against a Deidara that's not going for the kill, he is not doing that to Hebi Sasuke while he is dying.


Gaara still has massive reserves and one action to trick another person doesn't make you better.


> No, he is not. In the desert maybe.


In the desert he is wayyy better. Hebi Sasuke can't fly and isn't escaping those sand tsunamis period.
In a normal terrain he is still better.



> Deidara might've been in the level of Hebi Sasuke or below. The point is that a sick and dying Itachi played with that kind of level opponent while dying.


Ok



> Answering what you are bringing. You said that Tsunade, Ei, Onoki and Mei can do what Itachi did to Hebi Sasuke. We've seen how an almost passing out Tsunade fights, she was helpless against Asura Path. We don't know how an almost death Ei, Onoki and Mei can fight.so you really have no base to asume they can replicate what Itachi did.


Read what i said above.



> Tenten can actually beat Madara if she slashes his throat.


But that's unrealistic. Deidara has better odds of winning against Itachi than 1010 with Madara.




> No. She is in the level of Orochimaru without ET.


Nope she's above him but not by much. 



> They are not above Orochimaru either. At best they are in the same tier.


They really are.


> Maybe not. Mei is not above Orochimaru.


Agreed but she can push him.


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## Icegaze (Dec 4, 2014)

Yes i know Ei beats deidara 
No doubt about that sorry if that was unclear 

Tsunade will be trolled by C4 casually nothing difficult about that. once he notices she can heal he atomizes her 

Ok kazekage c3 is useless against your BF, C4 however kills him with no knowledge and with knowledge. 

What stops deidara from starting out with C4 was the first thing he did when fighting onoki

and lol Mei cant even reach deidara, he drops bombs on her till it hits. or decides to be an asshole and drops c4 and then she dies

Now as for itachi he rapes tsunade and mei since they are women

gaara can be argued  and the other guys. but from the offset this could become a 5 vs 3 battle


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## Complete_Ownage (Dec 4, 2014)

LoL at deidara being mentioned in the same group as War arc Gaara & Oonoki. Both easily a good tier above him at this point


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## sabre320 (Dec 4, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> LoL at deidara being mentioned in the same group as War arc Gaara & Oonoki. Both easily a good tier above him at this point



Thankyou gaara in particular gets underrated....he has far surpassed his older feats against deidara his growth was shown against his dad for god sakes...


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## Icegaze (Dec 4, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> LoL at deidara being mentioned in the same group as War arc Gaara & Oonoki. Both easily a good tier above him at this point



I get that about onoki
But seriously people what is so different between war arc gaara and the one that fought deidara
I am not being dense but I see no difference at all. His sand wasn't stated to be faster, he has less chakra now 
The only thing I can say is he got smarter with his usage of sand but that's about it 

The dude will never have a way of doing anything about c4. It owns him pun intended

@sabre what growth 
What did he do he couldn't do before ??? People just be hyping pointlessly 

Gaara hasn't done anything he couldn't when he fought deidara 
No one even cared to mention that he had improved or anything 
Seriously kishi makes a point to state such doesn't he?


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 4, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Yes i know Ei beats deidara
> No doubt about that sorry if that was unclear


It's cool



> Tsunade will be trolled by C4 casually nothing difficult about that. once he notices she can heal he atomizes her


Exactly which will make it a high difficulty match.


> Ok kazekage c3 is useless against your BF, C4 however kills him with no knowledge and with knowledge.


Yes it is. But why would Deidara use his second to strongest technique against a no knowledge opponent?


> What stops deidara from starting out with C4 was the first thing he did when fighting onoki


Because he had knowledge on him and knew Ohnoki was powerful.


> and lol Mei cant even reach deidara, he drops bombs on her till it hits. or decides to be an asshole and drops c4 and then she dies
> Her water dragons are massive and was able to ensnare a joking Madara who is far worse than a joking Deidara. Nothing short of C3 os affecting her. If C3 or C4 comes out it's a mid to high difficulty match.


Now as for itachi he rapes tsunade and mei since they are women[/QUOTE]
Agreed. 
gaara can be argued  and the other guys. but from the offset this could become a 5 vs 3 battle[/QUOTE]
Agreed too but as long as they are being protected they can't be harmed.


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## Icegaze (Dec 4, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> It's cool
> 
> 
> Exactly which will make it a high difficulty match.
> ...


Agreed. 
gaara can be argued  and the other guys. but from the offset this could become a 5 vs 3 battle[/QUOTE]
Agreed too but as long as they are being protected they can't be harmed.[/QUOTE]

No kazekage
If he uses the first c1 which lands on tsunade and she heals he will proceed to use c4
Cuz he isn't going to appreciate his art being rejected 

Now as for gaara protecting them he would have to have his sand in line of sight before itachi attempts using the technique 
If gaara does then yh no issues they will be protected 

And gaara himself can handle ama no doubt


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## sabre320 (Dec 4, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> I get that about onoki
> But seriously people what is so different between war arc gaara and the one that fought deidara
> I am not being dense but I see no difference at all. His sand wasn't stated to be faster, he has less chakra now
> The only thing I can say is he got smarter with his usage of sand but that's about it
> ...



His sand is fast enough to block amaterasy/enton strikes...he can casually overpower golddust that could hold down shukaku....he blocked 5 sussano sword strikes while exhausted and while focused on saving mei with his last sand...dude can spread out sand to act as a sensor...


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## Icegaze (Dec 4, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> His sand is fast enough to block amaterasy/enton strikes...he can casually overpower golddust that could hold down shukaku....he blocked 5 sussano sword strikes while exhausted and while focused on saving mei with his last sand...dude can spread out sand to act as a sensor...




He did not block Amaterasu 
Seriously this argument is old 
Amaterasu is not a projectile please from the 20 times it was used 19 of them show it appears on target 

Yes dude can do all those things I already said I think he can handle himself against itachi

His sand did nothing it could not do before 
You would have to explain and prove why he wouldn't have been able to block madara susanoo strikes 
At the time he fought deidara


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## Veracity (Dec 4, 2014)

They still really have no answer to Tsuande amped Jinton . Like no answer at all.


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## ueharakk (Dec 4, 2014)

A>B>C logic has itachi at least at, most likely above the level of any of the individual gokages, however the way the gokage's abilities stack against MS users: oonoki's offense, gaara's defense, tsunade's support might allow the gokage to win.

Although, I'm not sure if even oonoki's tsunade-amped super jinton can bust the V4 Susanoo Yaata version of this:
.  Think about it, all that has to do is withstand the jinton long enough for itachi to move through the jinton, at which point tsunade and oonoki are pretty much gg'd especially since itachi's would be equally as bloodlusted as them.

I'd say itachis win this more than not, even in the ideal situation where gokage go bloodlusted full power offensive from the getgo.


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## sabre320 (Dec 4, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> A>B>C logic has itachi at least at, most likely above the level of any of the individual gokages, however the way the gokage's abilities stack against MS users: oonoki's offense, gaara's defense, tsunade's support might allow the gokage to win.
> 
> Although, I'm not sure if even oonoki's tsunade-amped super jinton can bust the V4 Susanoo Yaata version of this:
> .  Think about it, all that has to do is withstand the jinton long enough for itachi to move through the jinton, at which point tsunade and oonoki are pretty much gg'd especially since itachi's would be equally as bloodlusted as them.
> ...



Dude what.... thats very improbable....and the yatas are not going to cover the whole space the giant jinton..is huge and the cube atomizes anything inside


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## LostSelf (Dec 4, 2014)

Turrin said:


> How is needing to be saved against Trollkage, after already having fought another Kage and before stone-will, anywhere near as bad as getting raped by the ambush-squad? If were comparing worst performances, Onoki is also ahead by a huge margin.



Nothing really. Just saying that their worst performances doesn't damage their best ones unless they were handicapped. Something very well forgotten by the people who base Deidara's strenght on his fight with the squad.



> Besides that, my point wasn't simply towards their worst performances, it was also towards Onoki's best performance, being vastly better than Deidara's best performance, as well as Onoki's abilities and hype being well above Deidara's. The reason I bring up the ambush-squad battle was because you literally were speaking towards how Kishi portrayed the two in the war, you can't say well the fight stopped with both of them about to use some of their powerful jutsu so they are portrayed as equals in the war-arc, and than proceed to ignore the successive portrayal they both received. Sure when they met at turtle island it was unclear whether Onoki or Deidara was better as they were stopped from really going at it and Onoki's abilities were largely unknown, but than these things were clarified in the war, with Onoki receiving better portrayal, hype, and abilities in the war than Deidara has ever had; and that's not even going off Deidara's ambush-squad portrayal, but even Deidara's best portrayals are nowhere near what Onoki was doing against Madara.



Onoki fought with 4 others kage level opponents, against a playful Madara and being healed. Onoki would've lost against the Susano'os just like everybody else. Onoki did nothing to Madara aside from hitting him _only_ when Madara allowed it.

Onoki's performance against Madara is by no means comparable to Deidara's, as both are completely different and we all know that Deidara could've lasted the same if Madara was allowing him to do so. Now, if Madara didn't allow it, both, Onoki and Deidara would not last seconds.

Onoki did a _bit_ better than the other kages. We have no idea how he compares to Deidara, and if he is above, it's not much.



> Again to me it's like you stopped considering anything ether showed beyond the turtle island encounter. Sure at that encounter we don't know how things would shake out, because we don't know Onoki's abilities well enough. If Onoki's Jinton remained in small cube shapes Deidara might have survived Onoki's initial Jinton or had a chance to get him with C4, before he could close the distance between himself and Deidara to hit him with the small Jinton cube. But the moment Kishi showed the cone-Jinton was a long-range blast it should have been extremely apparent that Deidara was fucked against that at the start of the battle and in their C4 vs Jinton clash. At the start of the battle how would Deidara avoid a large-beam of Jinton, which Onoki can wield towards him while moving at the same speeds as Deidara? In the C4 vs Jinton clash, C4 would be throw into a Jinton beam which would atomize it or Deidara himself would be atomized before being able to form the katsu-seal since Jinton-beam would be able to cross that distance much quicker due to it being a long-range beam.



I stopped believing that we were going to get to a common point all the times we debated about Deidara. Both techniques are different, both shinobis have different skillset. But Deidara is as deadly as Onoki. Just look how he flipped an island turtle or how deadly his C4 is. Thing is that we don't even know if Deidara would've tricked Onoki with C4. And had that happened, nothing would've saved him. Obviously, in a clash, Jinton almost best everything. But that alone doesn't make Onoki stronger than others.



> If you don't want to discuss it that's fine, but than don't try to simply dismiss my points, on the basis that others don't agree with my evaluation of Deidara, instead of actually addressing my points, otherwise it just gives off the impression that you have no real answer to these points and are just trying to avoid them for that reason.



There is no need for me to bring others to this discussion, remeber that you quoted something directed to Kazekage. I just answered you. Because honestly there's not much to say. You were basing Deidara's skills on, and forgive me if that sounds rude, ilogical or non comparable conclusions. And Onoki lasting long against Madara is no testament of his powers. All the kages lasted that much because Madara let them. If Deidara were there, he would've lasted as much as Madara wanted, just like everybody.

So, that is not comparable. The other conclusion i find ilogical is, and i will say it to let you give me your opinion (once again) and see if this opinion of mine can change, is considering Deidara slow or easly blitzed because Sai did it.

Let's put it this way: Deidara reacts to Sasuke, reacts to 5 tier in speed Gai. Get's blitzed by Sai. The ilogical conclusion would be saying that Deidara is slow, because that would be saying that Gai and Sasuke is slow. Wich is the most logical conclusion, Turrin?

Some parts of this is out of the thread, as you can see. And yes, i was trying to avoid a long debate that won't take us anywhere. It happened like 4 times if i am not mistaken. Not because i have nothing to say.


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## Gibbs (Dec 4, 2014)

Jinton GG

Ay Blitzes GG


Itachi ain't getting past Gaara's Sand.


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## LostSelf (Dec 4, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Gaara still has massive reserves and one action to trick another person doesn't make you better.



Gaara with massive reserves could not beat Deidara while Itachi with a lot less chakra and agonizing could beat Hebi Sasuke and Orochimaru with ease. See the huge difference between both?



> In the desert he is wayyy better. Hebi Sasuke can't fly and isn't escaping those sand tsunamis period.
> In a normal terrain he is still better.



I wouldn't call Gaara wayy better than Hebi Sasuke. I am pretty sure that he can defeat him in a fight. However, in a normal terrain, things are very different..



> Read what i said above.



There's nothing to prove that agonizing Gokage individually would beat Sasuke _and_ Orochimaru. Actually, their skillset and feats shows the opposite.



> But that's unrealistic. Deidara has better odds of winning against Itachi than 1010 with Madara.




He has better odds but needs circunstances that heavily favors him to beat Itachi.



> Nope she's above him but not by much.



All Sannins were portrayed to be equal and a part of the Sannin Deadlock. Jiraiya can be the onle exception due to his Sage Mode. But aside from that, even if Tsunade counters Orochimaru, that doesn't mean she is above him. She is his equal.



> They really are.



Based on what, exactly?



> Agreed but she can push him.



Sure she can fight him, she is generally in his level. But this is at best.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 4, 2014)

Full knowledge the Kages would fall back and form a strategy. They have Mei that is able to put up mist which hinders the sharingan. Gaara can block Amaterasu, can sense through sand particles to find location if need be and can solo 2 Itachis by himself. Raikage can blitz Itachi all day long and not get hit at all, he liger bombs Susanoo, A and onoki combo solo all 5. Tsunade isn't doing much at all. Onoki wrecks shit, he can solo all 5 Itachis by himself. Take flight and jinton blast, golems for defense, weighted rock technique(to lighten or weigh down) Itachis.


5 Itachis get out strategized and drastically lacks enough killing power. Sure Amaterasu and Susanoo are dangerous(with Mist its chances of hitting are low, A can dodge, Onoki can dodge given the amount of distance, Tsunade heals faster than Amaterasu burns, Gaara can block everything Itachi dishes out beside maybe a Totsuka stab, but Gaara should be able to evade it.)Tsukuyomi will be useless.

I believe when they had their hardest time is when Madara summoned 25 moku-bunshins with legged Susanoo that were able to seperate the kages, whom were still able to coordinate in defense and assault to win. A was doing well against his 5 but was distracted and got caught(literally caught) by Madara. Onoki solod the 5 legged Susanoo.


Kage 9/10 just for the offchance that Itachi is able to out maneuver the kages in the beginning but that is very slim given full knowledge.


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## Turrin (Dec 4, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Nothing really. Just saying that their worst performances doesn't damage their best ones unless they were handicapped. Something very well forgotten by the people who base Deidara's strenght on his fight with the squad.


Both their worse and best should be considered. Unless they got stronger since their worst performance; in Onoki's case that's debatable with stone-will, but irregardless it wasn't really all that bad of a performance to begin with. While Deidara was basically at his best, being buffered further by Edo-Tensei vs the ambush-squad. Again not ignoring Deidara's better performances, but can we at least agree that Deidara's worst performance is a-lot worse than Onoki's?



> Onoki fought with 4 others kage level opponents, against a playful Madara and being healed.noki's performance against Madara is by no means comparable to Deidara's, as both are completely different and we all know that Deidara could've lasted the same if Madara was allowing him to do so. Now, if Madara didn't allow it, both, Onoki and Deidara would not last seconds.


The Jutsu Madara was using when toying around were still well above anything Deidara had ever faced in the manga cannon; Tree-World, Flower-Tree-World, Meteors, etc...  I can't really see Deidara being able to deal with Madara's Meteors, Flower-Tree World+Susano'o, 5 Susano'o-Weilding-Clones, etc... ether. Onoki was also out-performing the other Gokage and was praised by Madara as the one supporting the Gokage up against him, something I also can't see Deidara accomplishing.



> Onoki would've lost against the Susano'os just like everybody else.


I think at the very least this is extremely debatable, as Onoki was winning against his Susano'o to the extent where he was even able to save Ei at the same time as dealing with them. So it really did not seem at all guaranteed that he'd loose to his clones, in-fact logically speaking with them slowed down he should have then been able to use his high speed flight and Jinton to defeat them. This was even after dealing with a number of Madara's other Jutsu and forming a multitude of combinations with the Gokage, which ate up his chakra.



> Onoki did a bit better than the other kages. We have no idea how he compares to Deidara, and if he is above, it's not much.


Onoki did a-lot better than Mei, Ei, and Gaara. Tsunade is the only one where I'd say you could argue he only did a bit better than. But ether way I fail to see what Deidara has done that is comparable to that. 



> I stopped believing that we were going to get to a common point all the times we debated about Deidara. Both techniques are different, both shinobis have different skillset. But Deidara is as deadly as Onoki. Just look how he flipped an island turtle or how deadly his C4 is


I really don't have a problem with the idea that Deidara has equally deadly skills as Onoki, offensively speaking. The problem is that Onoki beats him out in all other regards. Onoki is vastly more versatile than Deidara considering how many different nature alterations Onoki can use versus Deidara who only demonstrated Doton, than besides Onoki's signature Jinton he has a number of other very effective techniques. Onoki is also the vastly more experienced and knowledgable fighter. And even more importantly Onoki does not have major weaknesses in his fighting style, like Deidara does with Raiton and quite frankly his own arrogance.



> Thing is that we don't even know if Deidara would've tricked Onoki with C4. And had that happened, nothing would've saved him. Obviously, in a clash, Jinton almost best everything. But that alone doesn't make Onoki stronger than others.


I don't see how Deidara tricks Onoki w/ C4 when him and C4 are consumed by a atomizing Jinton-Beam. I mean can you explain to me how exactly you envision that exchange playing out, where somehow C4 is thrown at Onoki's Jinton beam and comes out on top?



> There is no need for me to bring others to this discussion


Yet that's exactly what you did

_Lostself, "And i am not the first one that heavily disagrees with your view on him"_



> You were basing Deidara's skills on, and forgive me if that sounds rude, ilogical or non comparable conclusions


You based Deidara's skills in comparison to Onoki's on how they were portrayed in the war:

_Lostself, "and they both fought like equals"_

I respond to that, but discussing my thoughts on that portrayal. So if that's illogical, than your initial response to Kazekage was also illogical, because I did nothing different than you, yourself did, except I took into account more of the events of the war-arc and how those events reflect on how they were portrayed, instead of stopping at their """fight"""" on turtle island.



> And Onoki lasting long against Madara is no testament of his powers. All the kages lasted that much because Madara let them. If Deidara were there, he would've lasted as much as Madara wanted, just like everybody.


Actually the Gokage lasted because Onoki saved their asses from Flower-Tree-World + Susano'o. He also was the only one besides Tsunade that wasn't defeated by the Susano'o-Clones, and even Tsunade was loosing while Onoki was winning. He also saved Ei from the Susano'o clones, and is arguably the main reason that Gaara survived the meteors as well. So he basically saved the Gokages a number of times. 



> So, that is not comparable. The other conclusion i find ilogical is, and i will say it to let you give me your opinion (once again) and see if this opinion of mine can change, is considering Deidara slow or easly blitzed because Sai did it.


I never said Sai blitz'd Deidara. I said the Ambush-Squad fodderized him, as a single unite. Sai did get the drop on Deidara, but that is because the other members of his team were distracting Deidara and gave him that opening.



> Let's put it this way: Deidara reacts to Sasuke, reacts to 5 tier in speed Gai. Get's blitzed by Sai.


Noooo, stop, right now. Deidara did not, nor ever has reacted to Gai. He clashed with tenten, literally the SFX is metal clashing with metal and we literally see Gai does not have a metal weapon in his hand, and only Tenten uses those. Deidara also react to an attack from Sasuke that was aimed at Tobi, and than the second time Tobi warned him and he had to use a bomb to blow himself away from Sasuke to survive, and immediately after that admitted he need to get the hell out of there because Sasuke was too fast for him. Sasuke and Gai are indeed to fast for Deidara to handle and can blitz him depending on how they stage the attack.



> The ilogical conclusion would be saying that Deidara is slow, because that would be saying that Gai and Sasuke is slow. Wich is the most logical conclusion, Turrin?


Deidara isn't slow, he has a 4.5 in speed, which is commendable, just usually he is put up against characters that are much faster than a 4.5 in speed (or have faster jutsu than that) in the NBD, or are equally as fast as him, but have more skill in CQC and/or tricky CQC abilities that can get him if given the chance. The other issue is Deidara does not avoid CQC as much as he should, due to arrogance. I mean just to give examples with a quick search of Deidara match ups, we've got: Deidara up against characters like Gai, B, Susano'o wielding clones, and so on. 



> Wich is the most logical conclusion, Turrin?


The most logical conclusion is Deidara would beat Sai alone hands down, but if you put him IC against characters that excel in CQC, he can very easily be destroyed before he gets a chance to take flight, which is where his real game starts. He barely made it to flight against Hebi-Sasuke w/ Tobi there, and unfortunately the manga has power-scaled tremendously since then and now many of the characters he's put up against are more lethal than Hebi-Sasuke in CQC. 

Conversly the Sai fight also tells us that if Deidara is distracted in a team setting or by someone using clones/summons to act as partners he can get cornered and taken down before flight even if the person is not otherwise better than him at CQC.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 4, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> A>B>C logic has itachi at least at, most likely above the level of any of the individual gokages, however the way the gokage's abilities stack against MS users: oonoki's offense, gaara's defense, tsunade's support might allow the gokage to win.
> 
> Although, I'm not sure if even oonoki's tsunade-amped super jinton can bust the V4 Susanoo Yaata version of this:
> .  Think about it, all that has to do is withstand the jinton long enough for itachi to move through the jinton, at which point tsunade and oonoki are pretty much gg'd especially since itachi's would be equally as bloodlusted as them.
> ...





Cubed Jinton given its mechanics bypass Yata's defense. And Jinton is stated and shown to destroy "EVERYTHING" in its path. Jinton has the feats to back up its hype of being able to destroy everything. This ridiculous notion that YM blocks everything is based on illogical statements, the most it ever blocked on page was Kirin, or the Snakes depends on how you look at it. Jinton has 3 elements the only Kekkai Tota in existence and in ninjustu capability is only surpassed by the Omyouton wielded by Jyuubi-jins.

Jinton's destructive capability is absolute.

@LostSelf- I don't no any ninja outside of SM Hashirama(makes a buddha sized down and attacks the meteor with thousands of mokuton trees(this is absolutely pushing all of Hashirama's abilities) and even then its a 50/50, GodTierNaruto, Jyuubi jins(if Omyouton can cut it apart quick enough) Those meteors were HUGE, and Onoki stopped 1 and fucking survived the impact of the other one, the impacts that Onoki took were astounding if you think about it(the force of the first meteor when Onoki first made contact, then when the second meteor crashed into the first one). To discredit him because he needed to be healed and needed chakra, of course he did he got hit by two meteors...two.

I will explain this later if need be about the force of the meteors but its late.


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## LostSelf (Dec 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Both their worse and best should be considered. Unless they got stronger since their worst performance; in Onoki's case that's debatable with stone-will, but irregardless it wasn't really all that bad of a performance to begin with. While Deidara was basically at his best, being buffered further by Edo-Tensei vs the ambush-squad. Again not ignoring Deidara's better performances, but can we at least agree that Deidara's worst performance is a-lot worse than Onoki's?



Onoki lacked Stone of will. Deidara's is weird for reasons i will explain in the Sai part. Yeah, his worst performance was worse than Onoki's. I agree completely.



> The Jutsu Madara was using when toying around were still well above anything Deidara had ever faced in the manga cannon; Tree-World, Flower-Tree-World, Meteors, etc...  I can't really see Deidara being able to deal with Madara's Meteors, Flower-Tree World+Susano'o, 5 Susano'o-Weilding-Clones, etc... ether. Onoki was also out-performing the other Gokage and was praised by Madara as the one supporting the Gokage up against him, something I also can't see Deidara accomplishing.



But it wasn't Onoki the only one who was taking on Madara's attacks. Gaara was holding his own as well against his set of 5 Susano'os, like Mei. Deidara has a lot more movement than those two. He would've flied out of range and last more than even Tsunade, bombarding the Susano'os. Flower tree world is a jutsu Onoki defeated by will, i cannot argue against that as i acknowledge that Onoki did better than them.

But, Onoki couldn't use Jinton by the time he was facing the Susano'os. It was a matter of time before he fell victim like the others.



> think at the very least this is extremely debatable, as Onoki was winning against his Susano'o to the extent where he was even able to save Ei at the same time as dealing with them. So it really did not seem at all guaranteed that he'd loose to his clones, in-fact logically speaking with them slowed down he should have then been able to use his high speed flight and Jinton to defeat them. This was even after dealing with a number of Madara's other Jutsu and forming a multitude of combinations with the Gokage, which ate up his chakra.



He slowed them down. But he had nothing in his arsenal by the time that would allow him to damage the clones. The chakra he had left was likely not enough to do the job for him. Also, he needs to stand still in order to use Jinton. The Susano'os could Split and attack him from different angles.


> Onoki did a-lot better than Mei, Ei, and Gaara. Tsunade is the only one where I'd say you could argue he only did a bit better than. But ether way I fail to see what Deidara has done that is comparable to that.



I actually don't think he did a lot better than them. He did better, that's for sure as he had the only jutsu that could bypass the Susano'o's defenses. Thing is, that Gaara and Mei took almost everything a cocky Madara allowed them to take. Deidara, who has more power than Mei and more mobility would have no troubles taking what Mei and Gaara took. His only issues are how his bombs would interact with the Gokage's team attacks. But that doesn't have to do with his skils. Deidara did nothing comparable to that because he didn't face a god tier enemy that let him live long enough. But we can compare his skills with the ones of the Gokage to say if he could've taken them or not. 



> I really don't have a problem with the idea that Deidara has equally deadly skills as Onoki, offensively speaking. The problem is that Onoki beats him out in all other regards. Onoki is vastly more versatile than Deidara considering how many different nature alterations Onoki can use versus Deidara who only demonstrated Doton, than besides Onoki's signature Jinton he has a number of other very effective techniques. Onoki is also the vastly more experienced and knowledgable fighter. And even more importantly Onoki does not have major weaknesses in his fighting style, like Deidara does with Raiton and quite frankly his own arrogance.



Raiton doesn't completely disable Deidara. In fact, to disable C4 you need to know it's coming or kill the man before he uses it. A raiton user without a method of knowing C4 would die regardless, or even then, a raiton user that cannot keep up with his guiding bombs would be useless. I actually don't think versatility puts somebody a lot above another one. Look at Ei, for example. But i do admit it gives you an advantage depending on some circunstances. I don't adress knowledge and experience because i agree that Onoki has more.




> I don't see how Deidara tricks Onoki w/ C4 when him and C4 are consumed by a atomizing Jinton-Beam. I mean can you explain to me how exactly you envision that exchange playing out, where somehow C4 is thrown at Onoki's Jinton beam and comes out on top?



It is because i don't think Deidara would go head to head against a jutsu he knows he can't overcome. Onoki could hit a clone there or could not. We will never know. But aside from that, in that fight, Onoki didn't look superior, Deidara either.



> Yet that's exactly what you did
> 
> _Lostself, "And i am not the first one that heavily disagrees with your view on him"_



This was to clarify the big difference between opinions about Deidara. It was not meant to bash you or anything. Just that other posters didn't convice you in something that i, too, think and debated with you as well and being one of the reasons i said we would not go far debating it again.


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## LostSelf (Dec 5, 2014)

> You based Deidara's skills in comparison to Onoki's on how they were portrayed in the war:
> 
> _Lostself, "and they both fought like equals"_
> 
> I respond to that, but discussing my thoughts on that portrayal. So if that's illogical, than your initial response to Kazekage was also illogical, because I did nothing different than you, yourself did, except I took into account more of the events of the war-arc and how those events reflect on how they were portrayed, instead of stopping at their """fight"""" on turtle island.



But they did fight as equals. The fight was brief, but none of them looked to have the upper hand until Deidara was called back. I don't personally think that Onoki's (or the Gokage) feats against Madara are something that puts them above the others if you think that Madara could've countered and killed the 5 of them anytime he wanted. It's like if i fight Mayweather, he let's me fight until the last round and beats me, and then people calls me stronger than other profesional boxers. Every feat, every punch he let me hit and throw won't be something that we can say i can do better than others because we don't know at what extent Mayweather allowed me to fight and how many attacks he let me use. The same thing can be applied to the Gokage.

The feat of Onoki taking on the meteor was not about himself only. Gaara was there, too. And his fight was backed up with 5 other kages (one of them a healer that brought him to the fight after the meteor left him out cold in a team effort with Gaara). 




> Actually the Gokage lasted because Onoki saved their asses from Flower-Tree-World + Susano'o. He also was the only one besides Tsunade that wasn't defeated by the Susano'o-Clones, and even Tsunade was loosing while Onoki was winning. He also saved Ei from the Susano'o clones, and is arguably the main reason that Gaara survived the meteors as well. So he basically saved the Gokages a number of times.



Indeed. Flower-Tree-Wold is something i cannot deny. Tsunade was defeated by the Susano'os, to be fair. Onoki was only stalling. He had no hopes of outlasting the clones and it seemed as he couldn't use enough Jinton to take them out. He was going to lose in the end. Like how Ei was stalling, but lost because he worried about Tsunade.

Gaara is also a reason why Onoki survived the meteor, too.



> I never said Sai blitz'd Deidara. I said the Ambush-Squad fodderized him, as a single unite. Sai did get the drop on Deidara, but that is because the other members of his team were distracting Deidara and gave him that opening.



Deidara was not distracted. He was looking directly at Sai. Sai moved in a linear direction towards him and yet he could not react until Sai was behind him.



> Noooo, stop, right now. Deidara did not, nor ever has reacted to Gai. He clashed with tenten, literally the SFX is metal clashing with metal and we literally see Gai does not have a metal weapon in his hand, and only Tenten uses those. Deidara also react to an attack from Sasuke that was aimed at Tobi, and than the second time Tobi warned him and he had to use a bomb to blow himself away from Sasuke to survive, and immediately after that admitted he need to get the hell out of there because Sasuke was too fast for him. Sasuke and Gai are indeed to fast for Deidara to handle and can blitz him depending on how they stage the attack.



What happened when Tenten throws a weapon was off panel. Gai was the closest to Deidara and was the fastest of the team. Tenten nor anyone there would've moved as fast as Gai. And i don't think Gai let him run away in order to pursue him. Therefore Deidara should've escaped his hands before.

Tobi had to warn Deidara after he distracted him. When Deidara was going to detonate, Tobi asked him to stop, Deidara then looks at Tobi and Sasuke uses that chance to attack. Deidara reacted a surprise attack there. And sure, Deidara was not going to win in the ground. He is an aerial fighter.



> Deidara isn't slow, he has a 4.5 in speed, which is commendable, just usually he is put up against characters that are much faster than a 4.5 in speed (or have faster jutsu than that) in the NBD, or are equally as fast as him, but have more skill in CQC and/or tricky CQC abilities that can get him if given the chance. The other issue is Deidara does not avoid CQC as much as he should, due to arrogance. I mean just to give examples with a quick search of Deidara match ups, we've got: Deidara up against characters like Gai, B, Susano'o wielding clones, and so on.



I should agree with the matches Deidara is being put in NBD.



> The most logical conclusion is Deidara would beat Sai alone hands down, but if you put him IC against characters that excel in CQC, he can very easily be destroyed before he gets a chance to take flight, which is where his real game starts. He barely made it to flight against Hebi-Sasuke w/ Tobi there, and unfortunately the manga has power-scaled tremendously since then and now many of the characters he's put up against are more lethal than Hebi-Sasuke in CQC.



Depending on the distance, i would agree with this, too.



> Conversly the Sai fight also tells us that if Deidara is distracted in a team setting or by someone using clones/summons to act as partners he can get cornered and taken down before flight even if the person is not otherwise better than him at CQC.



You know, the main reason why i call what happened with the squad as 'bullshit' or 'Nakama power plot' is because Deidara was not distracted. Actually, what happened there was the most clear speedblitz i've ever seen in the series.


Deidara is mocking at Sai, looking directly at him
Sai gets angry and grabs his book.
Deidara mocks him more, looking at him directly.
Sai looks at Deidara with anger, draws and moves in Deidara's direction.
Sai appears behind Deidara at the same time he finishes his drawing. Wich was extremely fast.

Nakama power, plot or Sai enraged is faster than Gai and Sasuke, in my eyes.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 5, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Gaara with massive reserves could not beat Deidara while Itachi with a lot less chakra and agonizing could beat Hebi Sasuke and Orochimaru with ease. See the huge difference between both?


Dude so?
Deidara is better suited for Gaara. And we are past the start of Part 2.
Orochimaru was careless and you can't prove he can beat Hebi Sasuke with ease at all.




> I wouldn't call Gaara wayy better than Hebi Sasuke. I am pretty sure that he can defeat him in a fight. However, in a normal terrain, things are very different..


Desert Gaara decimates Hebi Sasuke. 10/10 low difficulty at most.
Normal terrain Gaara would have more difficulty but would still win more times than not. 



> There's nothing to prove that agonizing Gokage individually would beat Sasuke _and_ Orochimaru. Actually, their skillset and feats shows the opposite.


No it doesn't. 
Ay Ohnoki Gaara and maybe Tsunade can beat both.



> He has better odds but needs circunstances that heavily favors him to beat Itachi.


Heavily? No. Flight really helps him.



> All Sannins were portrayed to be equal and a part of the Sannin Deadlock. Jiraiya can be the onle exception due to his Sage Mode. But aside from that, even if Tsunade counters Orochimaru, that doesn't mean she is above him. She is his equal.


No she isn't. She's stronger than him.  It's one hit then he's dead. 


> Based on what, exactly?


Feats.





> Sure she can fight him, she is generally in his level. But this is at best.


And?


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## ueharakk (Dec 5, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Cubed Jinton given its mechanics bypass Yata's defense. And Jinton is stated and shown to destroy "EVERYTHING" in its path. Jinton has the feats to back up its hype of being able to destroy everything. This ridiculous notion that YM blocks everything is based on illogical statements, the most it ever blocked on page was Kirin, or the Snakes depends on how you look at it. Jinton has 3 elements the only Kekkai Tota in existence and in ninjustu capability is only surpassed by the Omyouton wielded by Jyuubi-jins.


jinton's best feat is destroying V3 susanoos given an unspecified amount of time....

I fail to see how that means its databook hype gets taken to be literal.  Onmyouton is even more advanced than jinton, yet ems sauske's skeletal susanoo hand can stall the attack.  Nothing is 'absolute', this recent databook even said that madara's ranton travels at the speed of light and is unavoidable, yet the one time it's used in the manga.... naruto avoids it.

YM doesn't block anything, it didn't even block kirin since kirin destroyed susanoo however it's the shield of a V4 susanoo, therefore it's at least as durable as the thing it protects unless feats show otherwise, and a V4 susanoo is much more durable than a V3 as it has a layer of actual susanoo armor, it's not naked like madara's legged.


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## Icegaze (Dec 5, 2014)

only useful part of ichibe post is jinton can by pass susanoo. No doubt there. 
amaterasu can by pass onoki speed casually 

also please in no way shape or form can gaara defeat 2 itachi thats just BS

i mean madara v3 susanoo gaara needed his sand lightened to make it faster  to even hold it down and that was in a desert 

yes madara >>>>>>>>>>>>but thats not because he has jutsu like PS 

thats like saying because minato>>>>>>>>>>>naruto pre FRS arc that means minato rasengan>>> naruto odama rasengan
or same as saying gururu budda is weaker than any of hashirama jutsu because hashirama is soo much more powerful 

seriously people overhype gaara stats, the only useful thing kishi showed is he can by pass a bottom less susanoo with sand at the bottom. 

however in no way shape or form did he show he could overpower it. considering he was in a desert why not just tsunami it ???

gaara has not shown he can overpower susanoo V4 which should be and is most likely stronger than madara V3. unless someone can tell me why my analogy is wrong. i mean are we saying if base naruto uses odama rasengan that its going to be weaker than minato rasengan?? really. both jutsu have the same properties, shape manipulation. the more chakra the stronger the jutsu.  I strongly doubt madara uses more chakra to manifest his v3 than itachi to manifest his V4

gaara can troll amaterasu, but not because he can block it, its because he can simply shed his sand armor 
what gaara blocked was an enton projectile, amaterasu isnt 1. 

the jutsu has been shown over 10 times, only 3 times was it shown to travel same way kakashi kamui was shown to travel the first time 

every other time amaterasu was used it just appeared on the target. 

the 3 times it traveled were 

1) against sasuke
2) against hachibi
3) against raikage

please mention another time it traveled


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## Bkprince33 (Dec 5, 2014)

5 itachi's means none of the Kage's can even make eye contact with itachi, tsukiyomi would fuck anyone of them up.


Amaterasu would also fuck anyone of them up only a can dodge.


And people are really sleeping on totsuka, there won't be a tsunade still fighting after she gets pierced, once totsuka hits her, that's it she's a goner.

5 totsuka's running around and 5 Yata shields are way to much for the gokage to handle.





   @ urehakkk


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## Turrin (Dec 5, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Onoki lacked Stone of will. Deidara's is weird for reasons i will explain in the Sai part. Yeah, his worst performance was worse than Onoki's. I agree completely.


And should that not logically put Deidara's range for how we can expect Kishi to have him perform lower than Onoki's. For example if their best performance was rated as a 5 equally (which I disagree, with, but for arguments sake), while Onoki's low performance is a 3, and Deidara's is a 1. Than he's going to have more poor performances than Onoki, which should be factored in.



> But it wasn't Onoki the only one who was taking on Madara's attacks. Gaara was holding his own as well against his set of 5 Susano'os, like Mei


Onoki wasn't the only one, but he was doing the best and consistently portrayed as the one enabling the Gokage to survive the encounter with Madara.



> Deidara has a lot more movement than those two. He would've flied out of range and last more than even Tsunade


I really struggle to see how Deidara makes it flight against 5 Madara clones.



> But, Onoki couldn't use Jinton by the time he was facing the Susano'os. It was a matter of time before he fell victim like the others. He slowed them down. But he had nothing in his arsenal by the time that would allow him to damage the clones. The chakra he had left was likely not enough to do the job for him.


Where is it stated that he couldn't use Jinton. He needed Tsunade's help for the massive cube-Jinton, but he doesn't need that "level" of Jinton to defeat just the clones he was facing.



> Also, he needs to stand still in order to use Jinton. The Susano'os could Split and attack him from different angles.


He doesn't need to stand still to use Jinton, he was flying around while spinning his Jinton when he cleared out Flower-Tree World. 

ST
ST



> I actually don't think he did a lot better than them. He did better, that's for sure as he had the only jutsu that could bypass the Susano'o's defenses. Thing is, that Gaara and Mei took almost everything a cocky Madara allowed them to take. Deidara, who has more power than Mei and more mobility would have no troubles taking what Mei and Gaara took.


Again Mei and Gaara only survived that long, because of Onoki. We removed Onoki from that equation, and Gaara dies to Madara's meteors. All the Gokage die to Flower Tree World. They all die to Susano'o-Clones. Onoki was the main factor they were able to survive, even against Madara fucking around. He also individually did better than any of the other Gokage against the Madara clones and was the one being praised by Madara

So realistically nether Mei or Gaara, could have taken what Madara was dishing out, so even if one wants to say Deidara can take what those 2 can (though I disagree, especially in the case of Gaara whose defensive capabilities a far beyond Deidara's), than he too could not have taken what Madara was dishing out ether.



> His only issues are how his bombs would interact with the Gokage's team attacks. But that doesn't have to do with his skils.


Yes that does have to do with his skills. Onoki was able to be effective against Madara's Jutsu in numerous situations, because he has two very powerful skill sets; weight alteration and Jinton. Deidara would be less useful because he only has one super powerful  skill Kibaku Nendo, and is therefore less versatile than Onoki, and would not be as effective in numerous different situations. Which should speak towards Onoki's superiority as a ninja.



> Deidara did nothing comparable to that because he didn't face a god tier enemy that let him live long enough. But we can compare his skills with the ones of the Gokage to say if he could've taken them or not.


The discussion was about how Deidara was portrayed in the war-arc and the manga as a whole, so the he didn't get a chance is not going to cut it as an argument. Onoki getting to fight a god-tier and being the stand out among 4 other Kages in that battle, is simply better than any portrayal Deidara has gotten in the manga-cannon. We can discuss how Deidara would do against the individual Gokage or in that situation, but no matter the conclusion drawn there, that won't change how they are portrayed in the manga, and Onoki was portrayed better. So at least give Onoki his dues for having a superior portrayal in the manga, and a way superior portrayal in the War-Arc.



> Raiton doesn't completely disable Deidara. In fact, to disable C4 you need to know it's coming or kill the man before he uses it. A raiton user without a method of knowing C4 would die regardless, or even then, a raiton user that cannot keep up with his guiding bombs would be useless.


I didn't say any mook with Raiton owns Deidara. I said Deidara has a huge weakness to Raiton, and just because if Deidara survives long enough against a Raiton user to use C4 in a no knowledge scenario where the Raiton users has no way to detect the C4 bombs at the time of it's use, doesn't mean Raiton isn't a huge weakness Deidara has, all it means is that Deidara can still win against Raiton users, depending on their level of skill and their knowledge, which was obvious to begin with.



> I actually don't think versatility puts somebody a lot above another one. Look at Ei, for example. But i do admit it gives you an advantage depending on some circunstances.


And Ei is really not going to win a-lot of fights against other Kages, unless under beneficial circumstances for himself, due to that lack of versatility. He also underperformed compared to Onoki.



> It is because i don't think Deidara would go head to head against a jutsu he knows he can't overcome. O


Than what was Deidara going to do there, because it sure looked like he was going to throw C4 at Onoki, while Onoki was going to blast him and anything else in his path with Jinton. 



> noki could hit a clone there or could not. We will never know. But aside from that, in that fight, .


He could not hit a clone, because we saw that was the real Deidara when he was de-summoned by Kabuto. 



> Onoki didn't look superior, Deidara either


At the time no, in hindsight when we learned what he could do with Cone Jinton he did. As it's obvious that had he released it in the beginning Deidara would have been killed by it. Additionally Jinton beam would have killed him in the C4 clash. Unless again you can describe how this does not occur.



> This was to clarify the big difference between opinions about Deidara. It was not meant to bash you or anything. Just that other posters didn't convice you in something that i, too, think and debated with you as well and being one of the reasons i said we would not go far debating it again.


Ok



> But they did fight as equals. The fight was brief, but none of them looked to have the upper hand until Deidara was called back


Come on Lostself, Onoki literally never even threw a punch. That's not even a fight. You must know your reaching here, please just admit that much.



> . I don't personally think that Onoki's (or the Gokage) feats against Madara are something that puts them above the others if you think that Madara could've countered and killed the 5 of them anytime he wanted. It's like if i fight Mayweather, he let's me fight until the last round and beats me, and then people calls me stronger than other profesional boxers. Every feat, every punch he let me hit and throw won't be something that we can say i can do better than others because we don't know at what extent Mayweather allowed me to fight and how many attacks he let me use. The same thing can be applied to the Gokage.


That comparison is extremely flawed.

It's more like Mayweather fights you and 4 other champion boxers, using a certain percentage of his strength. You perform better than those 4 other champion boxers, and counter a percentage of his strength that most champion boxers could not. Obviously your not as good as mayweather, because he wasn't fighting all out and was just messing around, but your still better than 4 other champion boxers and still are able to contend with a level of strength most could not.

It's the same with Onoki, he's not god tier like Madara, but he's clearly better than the other Gokage, which is a huge feat. He also clearly has the skills to contend with abilities that would own most characters, considering how he handled Meteors, Flower-Tree World, Susano'o-Clones. That should not be all discounted because Madara wasn't giving him his best.



> The feat of Onoki taking on the meteor was not about himself only. Gaara was there, too. And his fight was backed up with 5 other kages (one of them a healer that brought him to the fight after the meteor left him out cold in a team effort with Gaara).


Onoki did the most against the meteor and Gaara supported him. It's still an enormous feat considering that level of attack that meteor was. 



> Deidara was not distracted. He was looking directly at Sai. Sai moved in a linear direction towards him and yet he could not react until Sai was behind him.


Deidara was not looking at Sai the entire time, Deidara was facing forward when Sai hit him.


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## Turrin (Dec 5, 2014)

> What happened when Tenten throws a weapon was off panel. Gai was the closest to Deidara and was the fastest of the team. Tenten nor anyone there would've moved as fast as Gai. And i don't think Gai let him run away in order to pursue him. Therefore Deidara should've escaped his hands before.


Again it could not have been Gai, because Gai did not have a metal weapon in hand that could have made the SFX. There are tons of instances in a team battle where a slower character attacks first and than the faster character comes in to attack. 

Irregardless of those facts, if Gai had attacked Deidara and Deidara avoided it, it would have simply been due to Gai being exhausted to the point of the feat being irrelevant anyway. So ether way you slice it, it's irrelevant to bring up.



> Tobi had to warn Deidara after he distracted him. When Deidara was going to detonate, Tobi asked him to stop, Deidara then looks at Tobi and Sasuke uses that chance to attack. Deidara reacted a surprise attack there. And sure, Deidara was not going to win in the ground. He is an aerial fighter.


Deidara gives no shits about Tobi calling out to him, he gave no shits about detonating his bomb next to Tobi in similar situation against Sanbi. This is a bad excuse man. And if we happen to buy into it, it still shows that Deidara could have easily lost to someone as fast as Sasuke, with any minimal distraction or if he wasn't lucky enough to have a C1 explosive handy, or if Tobi wasn't around to be the target of the first attack. So even still it's extremely clear that Deidara can easily loose to character of that speed in CQC before he can take flight. Grant you can argue he could also have a chance to reach flight against enemies of Sasuke's speed depending on the conditions of the match, how he acts, and how they act, however it should not be discounted that he can loose to those fighters in that way, and if they are better than Sasuke at CQC than his chances of losing before flight increase.



> I should agree with the matches Deidara is being put in NBD.


So yeah, that's why my responses in threads are usually Deidara looses before taking flight, because he's usually put up against characters more adept in CQC than Sasuke, who already was good enough to take him down, even disregarding the Tobi instance, depending on how the match played out.



> Depending on the distance, i would agree with this, too.


Deidara really needs distance and knowledge. Distance alone isn't enough because he would still likely get drug into CQC, as he has chosen to do ether do that himself or allow his enemies to do that despite already having distance, a number of times. So unless Deidara knows for a fact he absolutely can't win in CQC, and has the distance to comfortably reach flight before the enemy closes in on him he is most likely going to have to deal with trying to escape CQC at the beginning of the match, which is where he has a good shot to loose most NBD matches, due to who he's paired up against.



> Nakama power, plot or Sai enraged is faster than Gai and Sasuke, in my eyes.



Deidara is looking at Sai on Pg11, all of Pg 12 is focused on Sai so we have no clue where Deidara was looking, and than on Pg 13 Sai is behind Deidara while Deidara is looking in the completely opposite direction. Rather than call PNJ or Nakama power up, it makes more sense that Deidara shifted his focus elsewhere during Pg 12, allowing Sai to get behind him on Pg13. This also fits with Deidara's comment of not taking Sai seriously on Pg 11. 

And actually Sai would not need to be faster than Sasuke to blitz Deidara anyway, his bird and neo would need to be equally as fast as Sasuke, considering Sasuke did the same thing getting behind Deidara and Deidara only escaped due to having a C1 explosive to detonate. If he didn't have one against Sasuke, he would have been also hit. So honestly while I feel Deidara did get distracted by other members while arrogantly dismissing Sai, I would sooner embrace the idea that Sai's Bird/Neo are as fast as Sasuke than I would just calling it outright BS.


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## Icegaze (Dec 5, 2014)

i agree with turrin onoki was the reason the gokage didnt laughably die

now considering itachi would know who the biggest treat is. i think there is full knowledge here. itachi goes straight for amaterasu to onoki

if onoki isnt there the other kage would not last 5 mins.


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## Veracity (Dec 5, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> i agree with turrin onoki was the reason the gokage didnt laughably die
> 
> now considering itachi would know who the biggest treat is. i think there is full knowledge here. itachi goes straight for amaterasu to onoki
> 
> if onoki isnt there the other kage would not last 5 mins.



It was easily Tsuande and Onoki together .


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## Icegaze (Dec 5, 2014)

U didn't get my post 
Onoki was the one that talked them up not once but twice 
Saved all of them twice 

Tsunade gave him chakra that was it 

My point is take onoki out of the pic vs 20 susanoo the other 4 kage would have all been killed


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## Veracity (Dec 5, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> U didn't get my post
> Onoki was the one that talked them up not once but twice
> Saved all of them twice
> 
> ...



Tsuande also was the medic of the team. Meaning she was off panel healing and chakra replenishing them the entire time, hence the need for Madara to want to kill her before the others as per his own words. Then there's the fact that a medical ninja is considered just as important( maybe more) then any other ninja in a squadron by itself. Tsuande not only heals, but she fights on the frontline. That alone would boost her importance substantially. 

Tsuande also healed Onoki and Gaara at arrival and saved them from imminent death after Madara had dipped. Then there's the fact that Onoki and the Kage would have perished if it wasn't for Tsuande amping his Jinton, so no it wasn't only a Onoki thing.


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## Icegaze (Dec 5, 2014)

Ok my bad it wasn't only an onoki thing 
However onoki was the only one madara room special note of 

And the fact is outside onoki in this match up no of them have the fire power to breach susanoo or the ability to stop it 

So they get baby shaked if onoki dies


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Dec 5, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Being stomped by 5 featless Susano'o controlled by someone who wasn't serious =/=defeating Itachi's.
> 
> Each Itachi is superior to each kage. The 5 kage are fighting against 5 superior shinobis that won't hold back like Madara did.
> 
> Their only chances are lightened Ei or their huge Jinton cube. Aside from that, they will fall one by one.



Do you remember when featless non-serious Madara toyed with Naruto and he died?

Do you remember when featless non-serious Madara toyed with Sasuke and he died?

Do you remember when featless non-serious Madara toyed with 9 bijuu and he ate them?

Do you remember when featless non-serious Madara toyed with Tobirama and he ate sealing spikes?

Do you remember when featless non-serious Madara toyed with the alliance and he wiped out an entire division?

Do you remember when featless non-serious Madara toyed with little Onoki and the previous Tsuchikage, and he that kage lived the rest of his life covered in bandages?

Do you remember when featless non-serious Madara annoyed cartographers the world over by making them have to re-draw all the maps from desert, to crater, to forest in one hour?

Do you remember when featless non-serious Madara had the entire world against him, and he pulled off his master plan to become the Juubi right in front of their faces?

Do you remember how featless non-serious Madara got more and more pissed off when the Gokage kept almost sealing him, and wouldn't up and die every time he tried to kill them, and had to continually use more and more of his power until he topped off at a featless Perfect Susano?

I'm not arguing this match, but I don't get why them forcing Madara to get serious doesn't count for more than all those guys who never made him try or up his game.  That in and of itself is a feat few if any can claim.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 5, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> also please in no way shape or form can gaara defeat 2 itachi thats just BS


Eh Idk. 

i mean madara v3 susanoo gaara needed his sand lightened to make it faster  to even hold it down and that was in a desert[/QUOTE]
Lightened sand is weaker than regular sand
No it wasn't in a desert. At least not a sand desert.



> seriously people overhype gaara stats, the only useful thing kishi showed is he can by pass a bottom less susanoo with sand at the bottom.


What are people overhyping? 


> however in no way shape or form did he show he could overpower it. considering he was in a desert why not just tsunami it ???


What are you talking about?
If you are referring to the war, Gaara had people to protect. A sand Tsunami wouls have ended dozens of his comrades lives. 


> gaara has not shown he can overpower susanoo V4 which should be and is most likely stronger than madara V3. unless someone can tell me why my analogy is wrong. i mean are we saying if base naruto uses odama rasengan that its going to be weaker than minato rasengan?? really. both jutsu have the same properties, shape manipulation. the more chakra the stronger the jutsu.  I strongly doubt madara uses more chakra to manifest his v3 than itachi to manifest his V4


Why wouldnt Madara's be stronger than Itachi? Madara is leagues stronger.  That last part is false. Madara has far more chakra than Itachi. He has PS after all. 



> gaara can troll amaterasu, but not because he can block it, its because he can simply shed his sand armor
> what gaara blocked was an enton projectile, amaterasu isnt 1.


When Itachi fired Ama at Hebi Sasuke it looked like a projectile.



> the jutsu has been shown over 10 times, only 3 times was it shown to travel same way kakashi kamui was shown to travel the first time
> 
> every other time amaterasu was used it just appeared on the target.
> 
> ...


Against Sasuke it was projected.
Same for Hachibi
And it traveled after the Raikage dodged it.


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## Veracity (Dec 6, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Ok my bad it wasn't only an onoki thing
> However onoki was the only one madara room special note of
> 
> And the fact is outside onoki in this match up no of them have the fire power to breach susanoo or the ability to stop it
> ...



He acknowledged Tsuandes ability too:
*probably doesn't apply to hashirama and his massive chakra resreves in this context.*
*probably doesn't apply to hashirama and his massive chakra resreves in this context.*

If anything Tsuande and Onoki are the only characters he actually acknowledged. So I would assume they were the most relevant characters to the battle.

So the kage wold be screwed without Onoki or Tsuande.


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## trance (Dec 6, 2014)

5 solos in one thread? Unprecedented.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 6, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Dude what.... thats very improbable....and the yatas are not going to cover the whole space the giant jinton..is huge and the cube atomizes anything inside



Yata isn't an ordinary shield with a static form.

It can expand and provide a full frontal defense :


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## Icegaze (Dec 6, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> He acknowledged Tsuandes ability too:
> * it eradicated the V2 and blew them away with ease*
> * it eradicated the V2 and blew them away with ease*
> 
> ...



Your right 
However in this scenario 
How would tsunade be useful without onoki??

No other kage can even harm susanoo 
No onoki in this scenario they will die


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## Pocalypse (Dec 6, 2014)

I always held the opinion that 1 Itachi could hold his own against the Gokage, he might lose at the end but he'd take the majority of them out. 5 Itachi's is way too much. The Genjutsu field and range will crush the Gokage. Not to mention they have to deal with multiple Amaterasu spam and Totsuka slashes, and if it's a mixture, that'd be even hard because one can dodge Amaterasu then the other would be set up in catching a Tsukiyomi or get sealed.


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## Icegaze (Dec 6, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Eh Idk.
> 
> i mean madara v3 susanoo gaara needed his sand lightened to make it faster  to even hold it down and that was in a desert


Lightened sand is weaker than regular sand
No it wasn't in a desert. At least not a sand desert.


What are people overhyping? 

What are you talking about?
If you are referring to the war, Gaara had people to protect. A sand Tsunami wouls have ended dozens of his comrades lives. 

Why wouldnt Madara's be stronger than Itachi? Madara is leagues stronger.  That last part is false. Madara has far more chakra than Itachi. He has PS after all. 


When Itachi fired Ama at Hebi Sasuke it looked like a projectile.


Against Sasuke it was projected.
Same for Hachibi
And it traveled after the Raikage dodged it.[/QUOTE]

Go back and read the manga 
Gaara attacked madara in a desert everyone knows that 

Gaara sand was made lighter so it could be faster 

I didn't read the rest for obvious reasons

As for the Amaterasu I already mentioned what you mentioned only 3 times has it travelled the remaining 7 it appeared on target 
Makes no sense to go with the 3/10 when far more examples show it appearing 


Also itachi v4>> madara v3
For one madara V3 doesn't have a mirror which is designed to troll elemental jutsu nor does it have a sake sword 
It also lacks a layer of chakra 

Being stronger than Itachi doesn't mean his lesser susanoo would be 

Minato >>> P2 naruto however Odama rasengan from naruto >>>>> minato rasengan


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 6, 2014)

People only think it was a desert but it wasn't. Gaara grinded that sand before hand. 

Suna is a desert. 
The place they were at was a Rocky terrain not a sand desert.

He lightened his sand so that Gaara can have better control. That doesn't mean he wasn't able to replicate the same move without it.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 6, 2014)

Dude no.

How is Itachi's V4 better? Because of some damn weapons? That doesn't make it better in any way.
Madara's V3 would destroy Itachi's V4.


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## Icegaze (Dec 6, 2014)

You are free to believe that 
Same way u believing there weren't in a desert cuz of some few rocks 
Please google desert 
You will notice some have rocks 

Poor excuse 
Fact is gaara wanted his sand to be faster to have easier control but so it could be faster

V4>>V3 especially the legless one that fought gaara feel free to make a poll about it 

Totsuka is clearly more powerful than some bendy looking swords he stabs gaara sand he seals it 

If he can seal oro strongest tech and oro himself casually he seals gaara sand 

Also tskuyomi GG something madara didn't try against gaara cuz punching him around was more fun 


I guess next you will start claiming madara legless V3 is better than sasuke V4 with Enton blade 

Please that's just BS madara being stronger doesn't make a weaker form of his jutsu stronger than their strongest form 

Either itachi or sasuke susanoo would have instantly GG tsunade when madara susanoo pierced her in the same situation . I don't get how their susanoo isn't stronger and more dangerous and thicker with more layers etc. All madara has over either is stamina which isn't helped by the fact that they were clones  and madara was fooling around . 

It would be like saying gaara desert imperial funeral in part 1 is weaker than his dad desert coffin 

Makes no sense to think that.

Like I said if onoki looses they all die shortly after


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## sabre320 (Dec 6, 2014)

If oonoki gets on his mighty steed raikage gokage can win if he does not and the dynamic duo of a and oonoki is cut short kages lose...simple as that


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## Icegaze (Dec 6, 2014)

I love your logic 
Because all of those tactics are quicker and faster to use than itachi can use Amaterasu 

He can start with 5 AMA and kill 3 of the 5 Kage off the bat 

Why not ?? Same way onoki can attempt Jinton laser dama off the bat and win this match by himself 

However his Jutsu is slower than Amaterasu


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 6, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> You are free to believe that
> Same way u believing there weren't in a desert cuz of some few rocks
> Please google desert
> You will notice some have rocks


I said a sand desert if you were understanding. Not every desert would benefit Gaara.


> Poor excuse
> Fact is gaara wanted his sand to be faster to have easier control but so it could be faster


He never stated that


> V4>>V3 especially the legless one that fought gaara feel free to make a poll about it


Maybe but not when it comes to Madara


> Totsuka is clearly more powerful than some bendy looking swords he stabs gaara sand he seals it
> Sand isn't alive, so you cant seal it.
> If he can seal oro strongest tech and oro himself casually he seals gaara sand


Can't seal sand and Gaara can fly in the air and blow him up


> Also tskuyomi GG something madara didn't try against gaara cuz punching him around was more fun


In every fight against an Uchiha, genjutsu was a non factor for Gaara. Why because its not enough.




> I guess next you will start claiming madara legless V3 is better than sasuke V4 with Enton blade


Not anymore


> Please that's just BS madara being stronger doesn't make a weaker form of his jutsu stronger than their strongest form


Sttonger than someone elses yes it does.
V3 legged can move around able quicker than V4.
Plus if you think Sasuke 5 kage's V4 is stronger than Mads V3 you need to check yourself


> Either itachi or sasuke susanoo would have instantly GG tsunade when madara susanoo pierced her in the same situation . I don't get how their susanoo isn't stronger and more dangerous and thicker with more layers etc. All madara has over either is stamina which isn't helped by the fact that they were clones  and madara was fooling around .


One thicker layer. Itachis would have because of Totuska but that doesnt mean it's stronger.
It would be like saying gaara desert imperial funeral in part 1 is weaker than his dad desert coffin[/QUOTE]
It most liekly is seeing how his dad is stronger than him during that time


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## Icegaze (Dec 6, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> I said a sand desert if you were understanding. Not every desert would benefit Gaara.
> 
> He never stated that
> 
> ...


It most liekly is seeing how his dad is stronger than him during that time[/QUOTE]

It was a sand desert that's the bloody point I am making 
There was enough sand for gaara to make a tsunami when he attacked the Edo tensei kage before 
So clearly he had all the sand he could ask for 

 gaara has never fought a sharingan user who uses genjutsu over ninjutsu so BS utterly crap post . LEt me guess your fictional gaara is immune to it as well yeah

Enton makes susanoo swings more dangerous so does totsuka it is completely BS to think that a regular V3 swing is harder to deal with or more powerful 
Nothing backs it up 

Yes V3 legs can move faster and don't have a false bottom I know however V3 is incapable I sealing a stabbed target or nullifying elemental attacks 

Fact still remains gaara didn't just casually overpower V3 he couldn't even do that 

Gaara in a desert couldn't even pin down jokey boy who for all we know is barely faster if at all than the likes of V1 Ei

Yet it's this same gaara that would cause itachi Susanoo problems .  

No reason sand can't be sealed . If he can stab it he can seal it


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## IchLiebe (Dec 6, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> jinton's best feat is destroying V3 susanoos given an unspecified amount of time....


Yet what has defended against Jinton successfully? Nothing.





> I fail to see how that means its databook hype gets taken to be literal.  Onmyouton is even more advanced than jinton, yet ems sauske's skeletal susanoo hand can stall the attack.  Nothing is 'absolute', this recent databook even said that madara's ranton travels at the speed of light and is unavoidable, yet the one time it's used in the manga.... naruto avoids it.


Ill have to look at that scan again, but still doesn't matter. Jinton has shown to eat through its target immediately.

And that goes to show what hype is...bullshit without feats.





> YM doesn't block anything, it didn't even block kirin since kirin destroyed susanoo however it's the shield of a V4 susanoo, therefore it's at least as durable as the thing it protects unless feats show otherwise, and a V4 susanoo is much more durable than a V3 as it has a layer of actual susanoo armor, it's not naked like madara's legged.


Well of course but to take it from being stronger than v4 to it can block anything is ridiculous, especially given its only feats of blocking anything are rather un-impressive.


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## Rocky (Dec 6, 2014)

I love how the dude is banned but that image is still there while I'm eating.


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## Icegaze (Dec 6, 2014)

Mods please remove said profanity 
Susanoo V4 has armor as has been pointed out how could people think a Susanoo with a shield and armor is less durable than one without armor or shield with no special weapons to boot 
Gaara cannot just tsunami itachi susanoo nor is it his fighting style or he would have against jokey boy and Madara Susanoo clones yet he did not 

Fact is onoki is the only solid threat to itachi the rest can't handle him once he goes V4
As for Ei darting around that would not help him win unless anyone thinks itachi would foolishly burn up chakra when he can step it down to V1 that Ei still can't break 

tsunade and Mei are non factors 

Itachi will know to target tsunads first so she eats Amaterasu and dies first second into battle 

Onoki follows 
The other 3 will probably just give up cuz makes no sense to continue


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## LostSelf (Dec 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> And should that not logically put Deidara's range for how we can expect Kishi to have him perform lower than Onoki's. For example if their best performance was rated as a 5 equally (which I disagree, with, but for arguments sake), while Onoki's low performance is a 3, and Deidara's is a 1. Than he's going to have more poor performances than Onoki, which should be factored in..



Didn't Kishi said Deidara was the most dangerous Edo? I read this multiple times. How they performed in different circunstances is not something that determines how Kishi sees it. Nagato lost in one panel, against Shinobis way weaker than Madara. And i guess we agree that Nagato is above Onoki,



> Onoki wasn't the only one, but he was doing the best and consistently portrayed as the one enabling the Gokage to survive the encounter with Madara.



Sometimes. Onoki wouldn't have accomplished what he did if Tsunade didn't heal him and Gaara didn't help him with the meteors.



> I really struggle to see how Deidara makes it flight against 5 Madara clones.


The same way Onoki managed to touch his 5 Susano'o clones without being stabbed to death. He is as fast as Deidara in the air. Slower than Deidara in physical movement. It's a possibility that the clones gave the Gokage more than one opportunity to survive, as they did once in canon 



> Where is it stated that he couldn't use Jinton. He needed Tsunade's help for the massive cube-Jinton, but he doesn't need that "level" of Jinton to defeat just the clones he was facing.


Then why he didn't atomized the Susano'os?



> He doesn't need to stand still to use Jinton, he was flying around while spinning his Jinton when he cleared out Flower-Tree World.
> 
> *blow a hole in V3 susanoo*
> *blow a hole in V3 susanoo*


He was moving his hands. Maybe it's just me but i don't see him flying around. I meant that he couldn't fight moving all his body with Jinton activated.



> Again Mei and Gaara only survived that long, because of Onoki. We removed Onoki from that equation, and Gaara dies to Madara's meteors. All the Gokage die to Flower Tree World. They all die to Susano'o-Clones. Onoki was the main factor they were able to survive, even against Madara fucking around. He also individually did better than any of the other Gokage against the Madara clones and was the one being praised by Madara



The thing is that without Gaara and Tsunade, Onoki would've died too to the meteors. Would've died to to his Susano'o clones or to Madara. Onoki didn't help Tsunade nor Mei/Gaara with their clones. He just helped Ei. I acknowledge the praise he received by Madara, wich is why i agree he did better.



> So realistically nether Mei or Gaara, could have taken what Madara was dishing out, so even if one wants to say Deidara can take what those 2 can (though I disagree, especially in the case of Gaara whose defensive capabilities a far beyond Deidara's), than he too could not have taken what Madara was dishing out ether.



Then you say Deidara would've fallen to Flower tree world just like Tsunade, Mei, Ei and Gaara? True. Gaara had less mobility, but to avoid debating about completely different Shinobis, Mei has less defensive capabilities than Deidara, has less movement and is not as fast as him and cannot use clones/trickery. She was a far easier target than Deidara would've been.



> Yes that does have to do with his skills. Onoki was able to be effective against Madara's Jutsu in numerous situations, because he has two very powerful skill sets; weight alteration and Jinton. Deidara would be less useful because he only has one super powerful  skill Kibaku Nendo, and is therefore less versatile than Onoki, and would not be as effective in numerous different situations. Which should speak towards Onoki's superiority as a ninja.



Being a bad matchup for somebody doesn't affect one's portrayal. Kisame managed to defeat Bee by matchup. But this by no means put Kisame above Bee. Onoki only has one jutsu that can kill somebody. Deidara, on the other hand, has a lot. One of them pretty hard to counter, while Onoki's are more likely to be dodged.



> The discussion was about how Deidara was portrayed in the war-arc and the manga as a whole, so the he didn't get a chance is not going to cut it as an argument. Onoki getting to fight a god-tier and being the stand out among 4 other Kages in that battle, is simply better than any portrayal Deidara has gotten in the manga-cannon. We can discuss how Deidara would do against the individual Gokage or in that situation, but no matter the conclusion drawn there, that won't change how they are portrayed in the manga, and Onoki was portrayed better. So at least give Onoki his dues for having a superior portrayal in the manga, and a way superior portrayal in the War-Arc.



It's not that Deidara didn't fight Madara. Is that Onoki fought somebody what would've stomped him any time he wanted. And somebody that, stomped Onoki along his sensei without using his bigger techs. Showing a weaker form of somebody and losing doesn't erase his own's best feats. I never argued about Deidara's showcasing in the war because that was pure bullshit. for the reasons i stated in the last post.



> I didn't say any mook with Raiton owns Deidara. I said Deidara has a huge weakness to Raiton, and just because if Deidara survives long enough against a Raiton user to use C4 in a no knowledge scenario where the Raiton users has no way to detect the C4 bombs at the time of it's use, doesn't mean Raiton isn't a huge weakness Deidara has, all it means is that Deidara can still win against Raiton



Fair enough, even though i still don't consider this damaging to his portrayal. He is still as dangerous as Onoki can be.



> And Ei is really not going to win a-lot of fights against other Kages, unless under beneficial circumstances for himself, due to that lack of versatility. He also underperformed compared to Onoki.



Ei has a pretty good shot at Gaara, completely can take out Mei, can defeat Tsunade and can outlast Onoki. Not winning 10/10 matches. But the dude can.



> Than what was Deidara going to do there, because it sure looked like he was going to throw C4 at Onoki, while Onoki was going to blast him and anything else in his path with Jinton.



I don't think he was going to throw it at Onoki's Jinton with knowledge. He could've dodged and throw it, or attempt to. Unless he is very stupid to do that knowing it cannot defeat Jinton. Being that way i would lose a lot of hope on this character. But we will never know.



> He could not hit a clone, because we saw that was the real Deidara when he was de-summoned by Kabuto.



Agree.




> At the time no, in hindsight when we learned what he could do with Cone Jinton he did. As it's obvious that had he released it in the beginning Deidara would have been killed by it. Additionally Jinton beam would have killed him in the C4 clash. Unless again you can describe how this does not occur.




I adressed this above.




> Come on Lostself, Onoki literally never even threw a punch. That's not even a fight. You must know your reaching here, please just admit that much.



The fight was off-panel. How do you know he didn't throw a punch?



> That comparison is extremely flawed.
> 
> It's more like Mayweather fights you and 4 other champion boxers, using a certain percentage of his strength. You perform better than those 4 other champion boxers, and counter a percentage of his strength that most champion boxers could not. Obviously your not as good as mayweather, because he wasn't fighting all out and was just messing around, but your still better than 4 other champion boxers and still are able to contend with a level of strength most could not.
> 
> It's the same with Onoki, he's not god tier like Madara, but he's clearly better than the other Gokage, which is a huge feat. He also clearly has the skills to contend with abilities that would own most characters, considering how he handled Meteors, Flower-Tree World, Susano'o-Clones. That should not be all discounted because Madara wasn't giving him his best.



I already agreed with this. Onoki did better than the other Kages. I adressed the other examples.



> Onoki did the most against the meteor and Gaara supported him. It's still an enormous feat considering that level of attack that meteor was.



Indeed. But we are not sure if Onoki would've done it by himself as i doubt Kishi would've wasted panel time. Therefore Onoki probably wouldn't have survived without backup.



> Deidara was not looking at Sai the entire time, Deidara was facing forward when Sai hit him



*blow a hole in V3 susanoo*
*blow a hole in V3 susanoo*
Link removed


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 6, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> It most liekly is seeing how his dad is stronger than him during that time


Yes.
It was a sand desert that's the bloody point I am making 


> There was enough sand for gaara to make a tsunami when he attacked the Edo tensei kage before
> So clearly he had all the sand he could ask for


No he wasn't. Suna didnt look anything like that. He made a Tsunami 
1.He knew a war was coming
2. He grinded it before hand


> gaara has never fought a sharingan user who uses genjutsu over ninjutsu so BS utterly crap post . LEt me guess your fictional gaara is immune to it as well yeah


1. I never said he was immune
2. It doesn't matter. Sharingan is the Sharingan. He has an ability to counter that


> Enton makes susanoo swings more dangerous so does totsuka it is completely BS to think that a regular V3 swing is harder to deal with or more powerful
> Nothing backs it up


The fact that it's Madara is more than enough. You have no evidence to suggest that they are.


> Yes V3 legs can move faster and don't have a false bottom I know however V3 is incapable I sealing a stabbed target or nullifying elemental attacks


That doesn't apply to everyone's V4. TOtuska is useless against flying opponents. V3 is better suited against Gaara because it's not open at the bottom. 


> Fact still remains gaara didn't just casually overpower V3 he couldn't even do that


He couldn't use his full capabilities in that fight.


> Gaara in a desert couldn't even pin down jokey boy who for all we know is barely faster if at all than the likes of V1 Ei


Once again. Not a sand desert, and other people were there. Gaara could of already caught JB if he wanted.


> Yet it's this same gaara that would cause itachi Susanoo problems .


Gaara is better suited for Itachi's Susanoo forms.


> No reason sand can't be sealed . If he can stab it he can seal it


You can only seal living things. Read the manga. You cant seal fucking sand.


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## LostSelf (Dec 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Again it could not have been Gai, because Gai did not have a metal weapon in hand that could have made the SFX. There are tons of instances in a team battle where a slower character attacks first and than the faster character comes in to attack.



It's not what i said. I am not talking about that panel. 

*Here* is when Gai and the others find him.

After this, the only reason that Tenten throws him a weapon is because he managed to get away. Unless we say that Gai did nothing and let him, being the closest one to him, or that Tenten's hand speed is faster than Gai to the point that she could do this.

The sole reason of Deidara running away having Gai so close is because Gai couldn't get him.



> Irregardless of those facts, if Gai had attacked Deidara and Deidara avoided it, it would have simply been due to Gai being exhausted to the point of the feat being irrelevant anyway. So ether way you slice it, it's irrelevant to bring up.



It's not like Deidara was fresh.



> Deidara gives no shits about Tobi calling out to him, he gave no shits about detonating his bomb next to Tobi in similar situation against Sanbi. This is a bad excuse man. And if we happen to buy into it, it still shows that Deidara could have easily lost to someone as fast as Sasuke, with any minimal distraction or if he wasn't lucky enough to have a C1 explosive handy, or if Tobi wasn't around to be the target of the first attack. So even still it's extremely clear that Deidara can easily loose to character of that speed in CQC before he can take flight. Grant you can argue he could also have a chance to reach flight against enemies of Sasuke's speed depending on the conditions of the match, how he acts, and how they act, however it should not be discounted that he can loose to those fighters in that way, and if they are better than Sasuke at CQC than his chances of losing before flight increase.


Yet, he did gave a shit about Tobi:

*Here*

That panel above shows Deidara throwing bombs and Sasuke countering them. It shows the bombs falling near Tobi and it shows Deidara keeping an eye on Sasuke. And, of course, it show Tobi telling Deidara to not detonate them.

*Here*

And the first thing we see in that panel is Deidara putting his attention _on_ Tobi and not detonating. The first thing we see in the panel is Deidara taking his attention off Sasuke and giving a shit about his partner. That moment was what Sasuke used to try to blindside him.

If it was a blitz and Sasuke was fast enough to move that distance without Deidara noticing then no amount of warning from Tobi would've saved him, because when Deidara found out, Sasuke already covered most of the distance, therefore, Deidara would've still been blitzed.

Or, if Sasuke was always capable of blitzing him, he would have done so directly and not moving a greater distance to get behind Deidara. Something he couldn't do and what those panels are showing is Sasuke taking advantage of Deidara's distraction.



> So yeah, that's why my responses in threads are usually Deidara looses before taking flight, because he's usually put up against characters more adept in CQC than Sasuke, who already was good enough to take him down, even disregarding the Tobi instance, depending on how the match played out.



Fair enough.



> Deidara really needs distance and knowledge. Distance alone isn't enough because he would still likely get drug into CQC, as he has chosen to do ether do that himself or allow his enemies to do that despite already having distance, a number of times. So unless Deidara knows for a fact he absolutely can't win in CQC, and has the distance to comfortably reach flight before the enemy closes in on him he is most likely going to have to deal with trying to escape CQC at the beginning of the match, which is where he has a good shot to loose most NBD matches, due to who he's paired up against.



Well, he took Sasuke lightly. So yeah, if the fighter is faster than Sasuke and more adept, call it Gai or Bee, by the time Deidara finds out they are too fast it might be too late. I agree, even though it depends on his arrogant mindset.



> Deidara is looking at Sai on Pg11, all of Pg 12 is focused on Sai so we have no clue where Deidara was looking, and than on Pg 13 Sai is behind Deidara while Deidara is looking in the completely opposite direction. Rather than call PNJ or Nakama power up, it makes more sense that Deidara shifted his focus elsewhere during Pg 12, allowing Sai to get behind him on Pg13. This also fits with Deidara's comment of not taking Sai seriously on Pg 11.



It's not like that. Deidara was talking to Sai, and Sai responded, as i showed above. There is no reason for Deidara to talk to Sai and then look to another place when Sai began to attack. The panels are very linear there. Deidara talks to Sai, Sai answers and attacks. He didn't take Sai seriously, i agree. But he didn't with Sasuke either, at a closer distance. And Sasuke couldn't blitz him in the same way.



> And actually Sai would not need to be faster than Sasuke to blitz Deidara anyway, his bird and neo would need to be equally as fast as Sasuke, considering Sasuke did the same thing getting behind Deidara and Deidara only escaped due to having a C1 explosive to detonate. If he didn't have one against Sasuke, he would have been also hit. So honestly while I feel Deidara did get distracted by other members while arrogantly dismissing Sai, I would sooner embrace the idea that Sai's Bird/Neo are as fast as Sasuke than I would just calling it outright BS.



Answered this above as well.

Also, forgive me from taking too long to reply.


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## LostSelf (Dec 6, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Do you remember when featless non-serious Madara toyed with Naruto and he died?
> 
> Do you remember when featless non-serious Madara toyed with Sasuke and he died?
> 
> ...



Madara was not featless. We know he was fast, because he blitzed SM Naruto and reacted to Tobirama, also we know he was durable, because he took Bijuu Pinball. The only thing we know is that the Susano'o clones are durable (Tooking Tsunade's punches) and could bypass Gaara's sand as a team. But they couldn't even overpower Ei, who was blocking one of them with one hand.

Madara might've or might've not used more force against some than others. We also know that the Bijuus are stronger than the Gokage by a long shot (they together) and the power Madara used was super effective.

I am not saying their feats doesn't count. They count. I just disagree with how people uses those feats. Forcing Madara to be serious after a long time. Long time that Madara could've used to kill them over and over again pretty easly. And they managed to force him to that because the Susano'os let them live.

THe Gokage are as good as the firepower that Madara used for them. No more, no less. And 5 Itachis taking them individually are going to be a lot harder than a playfull Madara. Not with more firepower, but those are going with killing intent. I already said the Gokage can win if they do what they did to the Susano'os. Because fighting individually would prove for them to be harder than what Madara used. For the sole reason that Itachi is going to kill them.


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## LostSelf (Dec 6, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Dude so?
> Deidara is better suited for Gaara. And we are past the start of Part 2.
> Orochimaru was careless and you can't prove he can beat Hebi Sasuke with ease at all.



Yeah, he is. And yes, we are past the start of part 2. This was just a comparison, because as you see, the difference between Gaara of beggining of part 2 and war arc is not bigger than the difference of sick-agonizing-non kiling intent Itachi to healthy Itachi with killing intent. Therefore he is still above the Gokage individually.



> Desert Gaara decimates Hebi Sasuke. 10/10 low difficulty at most.
> Normal terrain Gaara would have more difficulty but would still win more times than not.



It depends on the terrain as Sasuke can bypass Gaara's defenses with Chidori. And is quite durable as you can see. Gaara needs more sand in order to do it. And even though i agree that war Gaara is above Hebi Sasuke, the difference is not even close to be close to how more powerful a healthy Itachi is compared to Hebi Sasuke. Noting that he could've killed him Hebi Sasuke while dying.



> No it doesn't.
> Ay Ohnoki Gaara and maybe Tsunade can beat both.



Doubtful. Ei is a given. Onoki falls to Kirin if Sasuke can use it so easly. Just like Tsunade would, and even if she beats him, she won't beat Orochimaru as well considering her condition. Now, let's assume they can, for the sake of the argument. They cannot do it in an agonizing state like Itachi did. And remember, the Itachi they are fighting is not the agonizing one.

Heavily? No. Flight really helps him.

Yeah, to stall the inevitable only.



> No she isn't. She's stronger than him.  It's one hit then he's dead.



Shino can also kill with one touch actually. One physicall hit kill doesn't guarantee you a win. Tsunade and Katsuyu, both fall to Yomi Numa and Goemon. Jiraiya is too versatile to be caught by Tsunade. And he counters her pretty well.



> Feats.



What feats?




> And?



The lowest versi?n of Itachi stomped him. Just imagine what the strongest versi?n of Itachi would do to one of her level. Called Gaara, Tsunade, and the same Mei.


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## Turrin (Dec 6, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Didn't Kishi said Deidara was the most dangerous Edo? I read this multiple times.



Kishi said Deidara had the potential to be if he spammed CO. However Deidara's hesitance to belittle his master work prevented him from doing this. 



> How they performed in different circunstances is not something that determines how Kishi sees it. Nagato lost in one panel, against Shinobis way weaker than Madara. And i guess we agree that Nagato is above Onoki,


The comparison doesn't work since the team Nagato lost to was VASTLY more impressive than the team Deidara lost to. 



> Sometimes. Onoki wouldn't have accomplished what he did if Tsunade didn't heal him and Gaara didn't help him with the meteors.


Sometimes should still be enough to put his performances in that fight well above even Deidara's best considering the quality of Jutsu he was up against.



> The same way Onoki managed to touch his 5 Susano'o clones without being stabbed to death. He is as fast as Deidara in the air. Slower than Deidara in physical movement. It's a possibility that the clones gave the Gokage more than one opportunity to survive, as they did once in canon


Nothing really indicates Onoki was just buzzing around the Susano'o evading all of their attacks. Onoki could have used Iwabushin to help him and used Dotons as much as speed to defend until he got an opening to weigh them down. Beyond that Onoki doesn't need to rely on his clay mount to reach those speeds, which means less openings.



> Then why he didn't atomized the Susano'os?


It could have easily been that he just managed to weigh them down by the time we returned to the Gokage, than he saved Ei, and than he decided to combo with Tsunade to deal with more Susano'o than just the ones he's facing.



> He was moving his hands. Maybe it's just me but i don't see him flying around. I meant that he couldn't fight moving all his body with Jinton activated.


He starts on the ground man, but by the time we see him releasing Jinton he is above the tree line.



> The thing is that without Gaara and Tsunade, Onoki would've died too to the meteors. Would've died to to his Susano'o clones or to Madara. Onoki didn't help Tsunade nor Mei/Gaara with their clones. He just helped Ei. I acknowledge the praise he received by Madara, wich is why i agree he did better.


Onoki was also already exhausted at the time of the meteors, so he could have probably dealt with it by himself, if he was at full strength. Him dying against his clones is an assumption a strange assumption considering he was winning against them to the extent where he was able to help another Gokage with theirs. 

Anyone would have died to Madara, but he is the main reason the Gokage lasted as long as they did.



> Then you say Deidara would've fallen to Flower tree world just like Tsunade, Mei, Ei and Gaara? True. Gaara had less mobility, but to avoid debating about completely different Shinobis, Mei has less defensive capabilities than Deidara, has less movement and is not as fast as him and cannot use clones/trickery. She was a far easier target than Deidara would've been.


Yes Deidara would have died there and there is zero doubt in my mind. Onoki's flight speed is the same as Deidara's fast C1 mount and he got hit into the poison despite it, and Deidara does not have Onoki's will to overcome the poison. If he's not on the C1 mount he would get skewered by the eruption of the trees before the poison was even necessary.



> Being a bad matchup for somebody doesn't affect one's portrayal. Kisame managed to defeat Bee by matchup. But this by no means put Kisame above Bee. Onoki only has one jutsu that can kill somebody. .


What does being a bad match up have to do with anything I said about versatility?



> Deidara, on the other hand, has a lot. One of them pretty hard to counter, while Onoki's are more likely to be dodged


If were not counting other Jinton forms than I'm not counting other Kibaku Nendo forms, in which case Deidara also only has one attack.



> t's not that Deidara didn't fight Madara. Is that Onoki fought somebody what would've stomped him any time he wanted. And somebody that, stomped Onoki along his sensei without using his bigger techs. Showing a weaker form of somebody and losing doesn't erase his own's best feats. I never argued about Deidara's showcasing in the war because that was pure bullshit. for the reasons i stated in the last post.


You need to stop this, because it's become frustrating. Literally i've said five times now that my point was not that Onoki was fighting Madara going all out, it was that what Madara used even when fucking around and Onoki countered was well beyond anything Deidara has countered. Ether address the point or not, but don't keep repeating something that has literally nothing to do with what I said.



> Fair enough, even though i still don't consider this damaging to his portrayal. He is still as dangerous as Onoki can be.


If he's as dangerous as Onoki, but has bigger weakness, than of course it effects his portrayal.



> Ei has a pretty good shot at Gaara, completely can take out Mei, can defeat Tsunade and can outlast Onoki. Not winning 10/10 matches. But the dude can.


Ei will only certainly beat Mei if the match starts at short-range, otherwise Mei will just blind Ei with Demonic Mist, which gives her openings to attack and Ei not knowing about Futton could also be disastrous for him.

Ei can't get through Gaara's ultimate defense and can't even touch Gaara when he's flying. Ei would get overwhelmed once Gaara grinds enough sand.

Ei can't even touch Onoki while he's flying, and Onoki has a myriad of ways to get the drop on Ei

Tsunade  probably would beat Ei by tanking his blows with Byakugou and than hitting him with her super strength

Ei can't deal with Trollkage or Mu at all. He'd also struggle with Yondaime-Kazekage if he took flight. And all the other Kages we've seen he flat out looses to for obvious reasons.



> I don't think he was going to throw it at Onoki's Jinton with knowledge. He could've dodged and throw it, or attempt to. Unless he is very stupid to do that knowing it cannot defeat Jinton. Being that way i would lose a lot of hope on this character. But we will never know.


How is he dodging the beam when Onoki moves at the same speed as him, but now has a massive reach advantage with the beam in his hands?



> The fight was off-panel. How do you know he didn't throw a punch?


Because literally he was just waiting to get Deidara away from turtle island to use Jinton, and once he does than he started fighting.



> I already agreed with this. Onoki did better than the other Kages. I adressed the other examples.


And is not doing better than 4 different Kages, better than anything Deidara has ever done. I mean come on man.



> After this, the only reason that Tenten throws him a weapon is because he managed to get away. Unless we say that Gai did nothing and let him, being the closest one to him, or that Tenten's hand speed is faster than Gai to the point that she could do this.
> 
> The sole reason of Deidara running away having Gai so close is because Gai couldn't get him


You mean like the 90 other times in the manga we see a slower characters attack before a faster character?



> It's not like Deidara was fresh.


So it's irrelevant because both were not fresh. Again come on man, you know that Deidara can't handle Gai in CQC, heck we have imperical data that tells us he can't. So let's stop this.



> And the first thing we see in that panel is Deidara putting his attention on Tobi and not detonating. The first thing we see in the panel is Deidara taking his attention off Sasuke and giving a shit about his partner. That moment was what Sasuke used to try to blindside him.


Deidara was putting his attention on Sasuke escaping from his view.



> If it was a blitz and Sasuke was fast enough to move that distance without Deidara noticing then no amount of warning from Tobi would've saved him, because when Deidara found out, Sasuke already covered most of the distance, therefore, Deidara would've still been blitzed.


Sasuke's Shunshin was what blitz'd Deidara, Sasuke still needed to follow up with a physical attack which Deidara was able to react to.



> Or, if Sasuke was always capable of blitzing him, he would have done so directly and not moving a greater distance to get behind Deidara. Something he couldn't do and what those panels are showing is Sasuke taking advantage of Deidara's distraction.


He used Shunshin's speed to get behind him and set up his attack. His Shunshin speed was too much for Deidara to follow. Deidara can keep up with Sasuke's movement speed.



> Well, he took Sasuke lightly. So yeah, if the fighter is faster than Sasuke and more adept, call it Gai or Bee, by the time Deidara finds out they are too fast it might be too late. I agree, even though it depends on his arrogant mindset.


Or 5 Susano'o clones?



> It's not like that. Deidara was talking to Sai, and Sai responded, as i showed above. There is no reason for Deidara to talk to Sai and then look to another place when Sai began to attack. The panels are very linear there. Deidara talks to Sai, Sai answers and attacks. He didn't take Sai seriously, i agree. But he didn't with Sasuke either, at a closer distance. And Sasuke couldn't blitz him in the same way.


Deidara says to Sai basically that Sai can't do anything to him, so yes it would fit that Deidara would than look away underestimating Sai.


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## Icegaze (Dec 7, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Yes.
> It was a sand desert that's the bloody point I am making
> 
> No he wasn't. Suna didnt look anything like that. He made a Tsunami
> ...



sustain the technique, and have it follow Killer Bee to his substitute.

Everyone please use small words and explain to laze kage how this is a bloody desert 
Look at the sand all around despite the tsunami

I have no evidence to suggest a susanoo with extra armor who a seal sword and a shield is stronger than one without one ?? I am comparing this to madara bottom less susanoo V3 which gaara couldn't overpower 

Seriously if you think it's stronger then  you don't get the manga at all 

Gaara has zero counter to genjutsu and will not see it coming why should he be different to every single other character with knowledge who feel in genjutsu ? Itachi looks at him he is caught it's very very simple 

I love your cop out why couldn't he use his full abilities in that fight ? Go on what's your BS excuse 

Fact is gaara never shower he could over power a bottom less susanoo V3 
Which is smaller than V4 and uses less chakra 

Minato is stronger than part 2 naruto at the start that doesn't make minato rasebfan suddenly more powerful than naruto Odama 

That is the difference between a weapon less V3 and V4 with weapons 

Being madara doesn't simply make his basic usage of a lesser form stronger 

What next you would say his Katon>>> Amaterasu which is Enton just for the lol 

Madara is stronger due to access to techniques they don't have like PS and more chakra 

You can see how with just V3 and lower susanoo forms the kage could fight him 

He went to PS and they lost hope . If his V3 was sooo many levels above all the other susanoo seen before that they won't even have had a shot against it 

In any case gaara also failed to tsunami jokey boy who isn't even all that fast 
Kimimaro CS2 while running on his sand wasn't even tsunami and crushed

Gaara only shot against susanoo is Sand at the bottom which he himself said it is pointless to attack it directly . Why say that if he can just overpower it 

Lord knows sandiame raikage won't say that he will just overpower it for example


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## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2014)

Full knowledge is helpful in evading Tsukuyomi and whatnot, but it's equally helpful to Itachi, because he would then know what combinations could bring him down. Namely, Onoki.​


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## Icegaze (Dec 7, 2014)

Good post strat
However even with full knowledge of tskuyomi it's ridiculously hard to avoid 
That would mean never looking above itachi neck 

Cuz all could be killed by it especially gaara and onoki who tend to levitate above itachi all he would need to do is look up


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 7, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> *2*
> 
> Everyone please use small words and explain to laze kage how this is a bloody desert
> Look at the sand all around despite the tsunami


Its not a sand desert. Thats why Gaara needed the Tsunami in the first place to flood the area.



> I have no evidence to suggest a susanoo with extra armor who a seal sword and a shield is stronger than one without one ?? I am comparing this to madara bottom less susanoo V3 which gaara couldn't overpower


Because of other people. What if he throws his Skysand Defensive Wall on it?
[QSeriously if you think it's stronger then  you don't get the manga at all 
I think that Itachi's V4 is sttonger than his lower forms but it depends on the person when it comes to Susanoo. 


> Gaara has zero counter to genjutsu and will not see it coming why should he be different to every single other character with knowledge who feel in genjutsu ? Itachi looks at him he is caught it's very very simple


Flight? 3rd Eye Technique? 



> I love your cop out why couldn't he use his full abilities in that fight ? Go on what's your BS excuse


What part of not wanting to harm comrades dont you understand?
Thats like saying Nagato using CT when he has 6 people fighting with him.



> Fact is gaara never shower he could over power a bottom less susanoo V3
> Which is smaller than V4 and uses less chakra


Susanoo uses a good amount of chakra anyway. Yes he has shown that he can.
That's like saying a water Tsunami can't affect a dumb truck.


> Minato is stronger than part 2 naruto at the start that doesn't make minato rasebfan suddenly more powerful than naruto Odama


Depends on the move. Does Minato have Odama?



> Being madara doesn't simply make his basic usage of a lesser form stronger


It is when you have more power than his fellow Uchiha.



> Madara is stronger due to access to techniques they don't have like PS and more chakra


O..k


> You can see how with just V3 and lower susanoo forms the kage could fight him


And?


> He went to PS and they lost hope . If his V3 was sooo many levels above all the other susanoo seen before that they won't even have had a shot against it


Many cant use full capabilities and I know they lost but they forced him to use PS


> In any case gaara also failed to tsunami jokey boy who isn't even all that fast
> Kimimaro CS2 while running on his sand wasn't even tsunami and crushed


He had to protect other comrades. Kimimaro was caught



> Gaara only shot against susanoo is Sand at the bottom which he himself said it is pointless to attack it directly . Why say that if he can just overpower it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Icegaze (Dec 7, 2014)

Ok he didn't want to harm his comrades In the fight in canon why would he want to now 

Gaara did not grind any sand it was a desert. Show a panel in that entire battle field that doesn't have sand . The entire ground the walked on was sand 

Flight is not a counter to genjutsu or both onoki and deidara would have nothing to fear from it 

Yet onoki mentioned genjutsu once they brought up madara in convo and deidara trained his eye to counter it . He still got caught btw while flying 

3rd is linked to gaara optic nerve . Genjutsu it will genjutsu gaara read the technique description  . If you are thinking gaara sends the eye high up for a landscape view you must realize itachi will notice. Considering gaara always closes one eye when using the technique


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## IchLiebe (Dec 7, 2014)

I love how people think shinobis inherently fight looking into their targets eyes for the entirety of the battle.


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## Icegaze (Dec 7, 2014)

I like how you think they don't 
If I look at ur face we are going to be making eye contact 

Please show 1 panel of an opponent not making eye contact with his enemy while not actively trying to do so 


U make it sound like Danzo ran into Sasuke eye twice 

Or that C looked into sasuke eye willingly 

Or that deidara did the same against itachi and sasuke 

Or that naruto who tried to avoid itachi genjutsu twice still got caught 

Avoiding eye contact is something gai trained to do 

The very fact that he said such a skill requires training very inherently shows that ninja make eye contact by default when they fight 


Thus far in this entire manga of 700 chapters no uchiha based fighter has not successfully pulled off genjutsu
Despite the opponent at every single time but deidara case having full knowledge of genjutsu

let's not act like genjutsu is something u can just avoid when every single battle fought by uchiha it has been used successfully


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 8, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Ok he didn't want to harm his comrades In the fight in canon why would he want to now


I was under the impression we were discussing 1v1


> Gaara did not grind any sand it was a desert. Show a panel in that entire battle field that doesn't have sand . The entire ground the walked on was sand


That isn't sand on the bloody ground. It had grass, Gaara just had to grind. 


> Flight is not a counter to genjutsu or both onoki and deidara would have nothing to fear from it


Its a counter because you dont have to directly look into someone's eyes if you can attack from the sky. It's easier than fighting with taijutsu. 


> Yet onoki mentioned genjutsu once they brought up madara in convo and deidara trained his eye to counter it . He still got caught btw while flying


Deidara was cocky. Ohnoki never got caught in a genjutsu.


> 3rd is linked to gaara optic nerve . Genjutsu it will genjutsu gaara read the technique description  . If you are thinking gaara sends the eye high up for a landscape view you must realize itachi will notice. Considering gaara always closes one eye when using the technique


The 3rd Eye is merely a spec. Why would Itachi search for something so small?
Not to mention Gaara can put it anywhere, he doesn't have to put it directly in front of himself. Plus Itachi will be trying to get out of the Tsunami s range. He won't have time to use genjutsu.


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## Icegaze (Dec 8, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> I was under the impression we were discussing 1v1
> 
> That isn't sand on the bloody ground. It had grass, Gaara just had to grind.
> 
> ...



How did deidara get caught then  while flying ? also note C and danzo were at an obvious distance from sasuke and still got caught 

please show a scan 1 single trace of grasss in that battlefield. you are making that up 

how wont he have time to use genjutsu?? he only need look. when has itachi not had time, every fight he has had he has used it. are we to assume this tsunami which gaara failed to use against madara is somehow so fast itachi cant simply look at gaara? or use crows to do it??

prove deidara was arrogant, against sasuke he certainly wasnt he was frustrated and hates the sharingan but thats it.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 9, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> How did deidara get caught then  while flying ? also note C and danzo were at an obvious distance from sasuke and still got caught


Deidara is a cocky shit. And got caught
Gaara is more intelligent than all 3 of them



> please show a scan 1 single trace of grasss in that battlefield. you are making that up


Look at the anime. It's green. Sand isn't green.


> how wont he have time to use genjutsu?? he only need look. when has itachi not had time, every fight he has had he has used it. are we to assume this tsunami which gaara failed to use against madara is somehow so fast itachi cant simply look at gaara? or use crows to do it??


Gaara would be using sand like crazy period. Throwing Tsunami's that's why.


> prove deidara was arrogant, against sasuke he certainly wasnt he was frustrated and hates the sharingan but thats it.


Gaara is smarter than him.


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## Ersa (Dec 9, 2014)

Anime is not canon.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 10, 2014)

It still wasn't a desert(sand)


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## Icegaze (Dec 10, 2014)

Lol sadly it was 
Stop being butthurt

So it was sand but not desert sand is that really your excuse 

Anime isn't canon 

As for gaara being smarter than all 3 Kishi the author disagrees with u


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## StarWanderer (Dec 10, 2014)

LOL. Itachi's have a win.



> Lol sadly it was
> Stop being butthurt
> 
> So it was sand but not desert sand is that really your excuse
> ...



Anime isnt canon? Prove that.


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## Icegaze (Dec 10, 2014)

lol 

in anime naruto throws a rasengan. thats more than enough proof. 

canon is manga!!! seriously. i see why u got such poor ratings. you really are a moron

for all those who know this including kazekage 94, anime isnt canon. he was being petty


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## StarWanderer (Dec 10, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> lol
> 
> in anime naruto throws a rasengan. thats more than enough proof.
> 
> ...



Maybe Anime is a more canonical interpretation of Manga. Anyway, until you have a statement from Kishimoto that Anime is not canon, it is canon.


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## Icegaze (Dec 10, 2014)

Like I said keep believing that 
Feel free to ask around what is used as canon

Also the fact that the sand was green doesn't not make it sand 

It's still green sand . So feel free to think anime is canon like I said you are new 

When Uve heard enough anime isn't canon ull get it


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## StarWanderer (Dec 10, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Like I said keep believing that
> Feel free to ask around what is used as canon
> 
> Also the fact that the sand was green doesn't not make it sand
> ...



Bla-bla-bla. Anime still can be a more canonical interpretation of Manga. And, until we have a statement from Kishimoto that anime isnt canon, it is canon.

Discussion is over.


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## Icegaze (Dec 10, 2014)

hahah, sure bla bla 
says the guy with the negative rating. one wonders why

canon=original source=manga 

green sand is sand, feel free to explain why gaara cant control green sand. is he allergic ?


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## StarWanderer (Dec 10, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> hahah, sure bla bla
> says the guy with the negative rating. one wonders why
> 
> canon=original source=manga
> ...



Anime may be more canonical interpretation of manga. And i am still waiting for Kishimoto's line of Anime not being canon.

As for rating, well, it seems a lot of fanboys, like you, had their butts hurt a lot.


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## Icegaze (Dec 10, 2014)

how could it be 

how can an adaptation of somethign be more original that what it is adapted from?

well u shall keep ur negative ratings. u clearly deserve them. cuz frankly i havent met another idiot like u


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## IchLiebe (Dec 10, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> hahah, sure bla bla
> says the guy with the negative rating. one wonders why
> 
> canon=original source=manga
> ...



I believe what he was talking about is that there is rocks even in that environment. Gaara doesn't have an inherent ability to control all sand, only the sand he touches(or his sand touches)


You act as if having neg rep is a terrible thing and automatically shows the persons ability at debating, when in fact the reputation system isn't anything more than a popularity vote. And not to mention we have a Rep God that can send anyone and everyone into the depths of red and never return from it at the slightest whim. Due to rep circles and everything else the rep system is rather broken.


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## Icegaze (Dec 10, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> I believe what he was talking about is that there is rocks even in that environment. Gaara doesn't have an inherent ability to control all sand, only the sand he touches(or his sand touches)
> 
> 
> You act as if having neg rep is a terrible thing and automatically shows the persons ability at debating, when in fact the reputation system isn't anything more than a popularity vote. And not to mention we have a Rep God that can send anyone and everyone into the depths of red and never return from it at the slightest whim. Due to rep circles and everything else the rep system is rather broken.



when someone is unpopular there is normally a reason. for example moronic posting. 
its odd u say this despite not having negative repping which means to the general public u arent a moronic poster. simply put 

my point was there was an abundance of sand on the battlefield. what jouki boy was running on was sand. 

u sound like ur bitching over reps though. 

everything is a general opinion contest. a crazy person is only called that cuz others arent crazy.

if everyone says black and u white, something must be wrong with u cuz the general public certainly cant think they are all wrong 

not a NF topic 

so back on track. jouki boy was running on sand the battlefield was sand. didnt help gaara catch jouki boy though


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 10, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Lol sadly it was
> Stop being butthurt
> 
> So it was sand but not desert sand is that really your excuse
> ...



No one is butthurt.
Gaara isn't more intelligent than Deidara, C and Darui ?
He's the fucking Kazekage. Was put in charge of an army for Godsake.


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## Icegaze (Dec 10, 2014)

sorry why is gaara more intelligent that those 3. please explain 

Ei is the fucking raikage. does that make him more intelligent than them 

Ei is the general commander. i guess he is smarter than everyone since no one else was put as general commander 

at least argue with some brain. common!!! u are much much better than this seriously. u could be like jad or raikiri99 some day. i get people have fandom's but argue better. it would be more interresting


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 11, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> sorry why is gaara more intelligent that those 3. pllease explain
> 
> Ei is the fucking raikage. does that make him more intelligent than them
> 
> ...



What the fuck is wrong with you. If you honestly think Deidara is smarter you're just plain stupid.
Gaara outsmarted the 2nd Mizukage and found a way to defeat Joki Boy. Was Intelligent enough to keep an eye out on Ohnoki just in case something happened. 
C Darui and Deidara have no intelligence on that level.


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## Icegaze (Dec 11, 2014)

no whats wrong with you and ur BS explanation he is kage thereforre he is smarter than those who arent


deidara outsmarted gaara. so i do not get your point   

unless u think gaara anticipated eating a C1 to the face just to have his bijuu extracted later

blown away

bottom right panel looks an awful lot like sand. hmmmm all the way out there. but yh lets keep denying its not a desert. because there were rocks around. lol

more sand 

blown away


blown away

so can we at least admit gaara in a desert struggled to pin down jouki boy. 

if onoki dies the kages loose. laughably


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 12, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> no[/url] whats wrong with you and ur BS explanation he is kage thereforre he is smarter than those who arent
> 
> 
> deidara outsmarted gaara. so i do not get your point
> ...



Omg dude.

Gaara had no knowledge on Deidara. 
The Mizukage had knowledge on Gaara and Gaara had knowledge on him.
Gaara didn't know what Deidara could do. So for you to say he outsmarted him that's a complete lie. Gaara didn't know anything about Deidara.

Not to mention, Gaara got smarter from the beginning of Part 2. It's wayy behind thatpoint. Deidara if anything never changed. 

If Gaara didn't have no comrades around and he was in a desert he would of never struggled. 

Plus I already explained that the terrain wasnt a desert. Gaara grinded that sand you showed too. 
If you look at Kimi vs Gaara, you'll find that sand was on the terrain but it still looked like there was grass there from the start. 

Bottom line Gaara grinded the sand he used against the Mizukage. 
You can't prove that the place was a desert just because there was sand there. Gaara most likely was off panel grinding.


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## RedChidori (Dec 13, 2014)

Itachi-Sama soloes. Five Susano'o with Spiritual Weapons beat the Gokage  .


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