# G4 Luffy (Infinite) and Law vs. Marco



## Deleted member 211714 (May 30, 2015)

Interested in seeing how people think the duo would fare against Marco~
G4 Luffy (Infinite) has been pretty wanked around here, and I've seen people infer that he is around Marco's level without the limit on that mode.

Personally, I don't think the two of them would stand a chance against Marco, considering his level of endurance/stamina is much higher than their combined pool. He can also casually regenerate from shit like Gamma Knife and go through G4 Luffy's attacks like nothing when Yasakani no Magatama was no-sold - which should logically be stronger than Luffy's entire assault on Doffy - so their options are essentially nonexistent, if you ask me.

Discuss.


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## Canute87 (May 30, 2015)

Marco loses.

Shambling Kong Gun to the throat.


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## barreltheif (May 30, 2015)

The duo wins after a long fight. Law is kind of a bad matchup for Marco, and infinite G4 Luffy is close to Marco's level anyway.


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## trance (May 30, 2015)

Marco still takes it. Marco is one of the strongest characters that isn't an Admiral or an Emperor.


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## Tenma (May 31, 2015)

DD should be at least equal to Marco without regen, if not stronger.

G4 Luffy holds him back for long enough to Law to catch him by surprise (WB Pirates specialty) and slice him into half/pop his heart out. Infinite G4 not required.


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## NO (May 31, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> Interested in seeing how people think the duo would fare against Marco~
> G4 Luffy (Infinite) has been pretty wanked around here, and I've seen people infer that he is around Marco's level without the limit on that mode.
> 
> Personally, I don't think the two of them would stand a chance against Marco, considering his level of *endurance/stamina is much higher than their combined pool*. He can also casually regenerate from shit like Gamma Knife and go through G4 Luffy's attacks like nothing when Yasakani no Magatama was no-sold - which should logically be stronger than Luffy's entire assault on Doffy - so their options are essentially nonexistent, if you ask me.
> ...


I actually can't take this post seriously.

First off, *Marco has NOWHERE NEAR the amount of endurance or stamina Law has.* This is not even up for debate, this is a canonical statement. Law's heart was squeezed by Vergo 6-7 times and he still stood up to fuck him up afterwards. Then he defended himself against Fujitora and DD for an extended period of time, got shot up by DD, had his arm ripped off by DD, and still survived all this bullshit. Stamina? The kid was spamming his DF ability almost every chapter these past 2 arcs. Unless you can show us better defensive feats for Marco (you won't; because I've memorized every manga panel involving Marco), there is no you can make this argument.

Second, you seem to be deluded like any Marco fan on this board. Since when does Marco have unlimited regeneration? Law and Luffy have proven they can attack and apply long-term pressure even before G4. We've pretty much established, on this very board, that unlimited regen Marco can take any character in One Piece out. Establish a rational restraint on Marco's regen.

Third, Yasakani no Magatama is not stronger than Luffy's entire assault on DD. Take any 10 rational OL posters, repeat this statement to them, and they will tell you this is the strongest admiral wanking they've ever read.


G4 Luffy and Law take Marco low-diff, assuming low-capacity regen and mid-diff assuming high-capacity.


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## Gohara (May 31, 2015)

Luffy and Law win with high to extremely high difficulty, IMO.  Luffy alone can put up a great fight against Marco.  Luffy having Law's help gives them the edge.


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## Finalbeta (May 31, 2015)

Law has not the speed to tag Marco he will probably go crazy trying to see these speedsters go at incredible mach speeds before he can process a though


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## Wayne With The Ism (May 31, 2015)

Tenma said:


> DD should be at least equal to Marco without regen, if not stronger.
> 
> G4 Luffy holds him back for long enough to Law to catch him by surprise (WB Pirates specialty) and slice him into half/pop his heart out. Infinite G4 not required.



Lol hell no.

OT: The question is if you think the duo can defeat an admiral. Marco is at the level of admirals with better sustainability and enough firepower to take the duo down individually. All this talk about stamina and other bs cannot even be applied because Marco doesn't have enough panel time to show what he's made of. All we know is that Marco is at the level of admirals who should theoretically have better stamina and endurance than Law.


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## NO (May 31, 2015)

WasaluBadassLamar said:


> Lol hell no.
> 
> OT: The question is if you think the duo can defeat an admiral. *Marco is at the level of admirals* with better sustainability and enough firepower to take the duo down individually. All this talk about stamina and other bs cannot even be applied because *Marco doesn't have enough panel time to show what he's made of.* All we know is that Marco is at the level of admirals who should theoretically have better stamina and endurance than Law.


Keep laughing, you're still not proving anything. Marco can fight against an admiral and bother them. *Many people can do that*, including two people like Luffy and Law. That doesn't equate to Marco = Admiral, which you seem to be cautious about insinuating.

Law has shown superior endurance and stamina feats. If you want to jack up Marco's stats in those regards, show us the canon that proves it (other than "he fought admirals" - which showed us nothing in regards to his stamina/endurance). And if you want to use the "not enough panel time"-cop out, then don't magically give Marco the benefit of the doubt, when the two characters matched up against him have an abundance of amazing feats.


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## RileyD (May 31, 2015)

Can he regenerate from his pieces being STOLEN note, not destroyed, still connected to him via law's magic?
Does law still have the seastone cuffs that doflamingo put in his possession? (PIS prevented him from putting them on doflamingo in one of his trickery moments, but non PIS marco gets nullified)

Also g4 fodderized doflamingo, something that marco can't do. Luffys speed and damage output are superior and g4 canonically tanks all blunt force damage (presumably unless the persons haki is yonkou tier) and marco's flames don't burn so the talons (and not the kicks themselves) are the only things that can damage luffy. Marco has superior endurance but his regeneration is not infinite.

SBS 58
O: Yeah, I know... I've omitted the explanation from this war arc, because I focused on the pacing and wanted to move the story forward. To explain Marco's ability just a little bit: he's Zoan, so he does have a body. But since he's got "the blue fire of revival" - the Phoenix's ability - wounds will regenerate, so attacks will not damage him *(though there's a limit to the regeneration)*. In other words, the flames are for regeneration. *These blue flames don't have the characteristics of actual fire - they don't spread and burn things, and they aren't hot.* They're completely different from Ace's flames. I might touch on this in the main story at some point, so I'll leave it at this for now.


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## Amol (May 31, 2015)

Marco wins of course.
They still don't have level of offensive power that requires to put down Marco.
Marco also has better haki to the level I doubt Law's slashes will even work on him.
He was speed wise keeping with Kizaru.
So G4 Luffy is not having speed advantage here .
I can easily see Marco outlasting them.
They need one more SN like Kid to defeat Marco.


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## Bernkastel (May 31, 2015)

Marco's fruit is broken. I doubt those 2 are enough to bypass his regen.The guy took attacks from all 3 admirals without any notable injury ..he also survived a punch from Garp ffs 

Law's only chance of hitting Marco is catching him off guard cause the latter's haki should be much better.And Luffy albeit strong in G4 i don't think brute force will be enough to put down a fighter of Marco's calibre.


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## RileyD (May 31, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> Marco's fruit is broken. I doubt those 2 are enough to bypass his regen.The guy took attacks from all 3 admirals without any notable injury ..he also survived a punch from Garp ffs
> 
> Law's only chance of hitting Marco is catching him off guard cause the latter's haki should be much better.And Luffy albeit strong in G4 i don't think brute force will be enough to put down a fighter of Marco's calibre.



Would Law's fruit even cause regen? Marco isn't being cut, he is having his parts manipulated.  He could do what he did to Vergo (seperate body parts into buggy sized chunks immobilizing him) if Luffy was there to distract him.

 Also Law owns a pair of Seastone cuffs and is used to applying them to enemies and he is more suited to trolling distracted enemies than Onigumo.


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## Bernkastel (May 31, 2015)

RileyD said:


> Would Law's fruit even cause regen? Marco isn't being cut, he is having his parts manipulated.  He could do what he did to Vergo (seperate body parts into buggy sized chunks immobilizing him) if Luffy was there to distract him.
> 
> Also Law owns a pair of Seastone cuffs and is used to applying them to enemies and he is more suited to trolling distracted enemies than Onigumo.



WB's life was in danger the time he got distracted..everyone would've got distracted there..they're drawn as human beings not as machines who feel nothing.There's no reason for Marco to be distracted here.

Also his haki should be superior to Law so unless they somehow catch him off guard i don't see how  he could bypass his haki/regen even with his hax DF.

Law's DF is exceptionally hax against opponents in the same ballpark but Marco isn't one of those guys and there's no reason to assume he could "cut" him unless they severely weaken him.


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## RileyD (May 31, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> WB's life was in danger the time he got distracted..everyone would've got distracted there..they're drawn as human beings not as machines who feel nothing.There's no reason for Marco to be distracted here.
> 
> Also his haki should be superior to Law so unless they somehow catch him off guard i don't see how  he could bypass his haki/regen even with his hax DF.
> 
> Law's DF is exceptionally hax against opponents in the same ballpark but Marco isn't one of those guys and there's no reason to assume he could "cut" him unless they severely weaken him.



Laws fruit is unpredictable and is ideal for these sort of switch up trolls, unlike Onigumo the Zoan VA.
g4 Luffy is enough to distract Marco.

It's not a matter of overcoming regen because he is not being INJURED, his parts are still connected to his body through the Ope link . 
Now this is just how I see the fruits interracting, but if they work differently then it doesn't really make sense, Law would keep detatching bodyparts, but they would still be connected to Marco through the Ope link and thus controllable so Law could decapitate Marco 100 times and we would end up with 100 headless marcos still controllable by Marco.

Now haki defense is the only thing really saving Marco, and we know haki is a finite resource. 
By making Luffy have infinite haki pool to support G4 it is ridiculous to think Marco can keep clashing with someone immune to blunt force damage with comporable if not superior stats while trying to avoid someone haxing him.


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## Bernkastel (May 31, 2015)

^ No Luffy won't distract Marco cause the latter can just charge and slice Law's throat w/o fear of getting hurt in the process due to his hax DF.

The only threat here is Luffy but due to regen he can just ignore him and go straight for Law.Once he's dead Luffy will fall sooner or later.


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## RileyD (May 31, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> ^ No Luffy won't distract Marco cause the latter can just charge and slice Law's throat w/o fear of getting hurt in the process due to his hax DF.
> 
> The only threat here is Luffy but due to regen he can just ignore him and go straight for Law.Once he's dead Luffy will fall sooner or later.



g2 luffy was protecting Law against Doflamingo, g4 with can protect Law against Marco. 

In a battle of endurance "infinite g4" luffy is gonna beat Marco because Marco doesn't have an infinite haki pool.
Marco has no impressive slashing feats with his talons, realisitcally he isn't doing any damage to luffy.


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## Finalbeta (May 31, 2015)

Aren't you guys underrating the speed factor ? 

Marco could be even faster than G4 Luffy, how the hell is Law giving Luffy a valid support here?


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## Bernkastel (May 31, 2015)

RileyD said:


> g2 luffy was protecting Law against Doflamingo, g4 with can protect Law against Marco.
> 
> In a battle of endurance "infinite g4" luffy is gonna beat Marco because Marco doesn't have an infinite haki pool.
> Marco has no impressive slashing feats with his talons, realisitcally he isn't doing any damage to luffy.



His haki was strong enough to bypass Kizaru's and Kiji's logia intangibility and send them flying.
He is portrayed very close to the admirals so there's no reason to assume that he won't be able to do any damage to Luffy.
And again he doesn't need to beat him yet..all he has to do is throw the "balloon man" away till he slices Law.

Also as Finalbeta says Marco should be faster than Luffy and Law.


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## RileyD (May 31, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> His haki was strong enough to bypass Kizaru's and Kiji's logia intangibility and send them flying.
> He is portrayed very close to the admirals so there's no reason to assume that he won't be able to do any damage to Luffy.
> And again he doesn't need to beat him yet..all he has to do is throw the "balloon man" away till he slices Law.
> 
> Also as Finalbeta says Marco should be faster than Luffy and Law.


Joz made Aokiji bleed,Doflamingo should be able to make Aokiji and Kizaru bleed, as should luffy.
It isn't the hardest thing to do. Making someone bleed and being on their level is not the same thing.
Joz got fodderized by Doflamingo, someone whose reactions cannot keep up with g4. The gap between reactions of 2 arm Joz and Marco should not be greater than the gap between g4 and g2 luffy.


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## Bernkastel (May 31, 2015)

RileyD said:


> Joz made Aokiji bleed,Doflamingo should be able to make Aokiji and Kizaru bleed, as should luffy.
> It isn't the hardest thing to do. Making someone bleed and being on their level is not the same thing.
> Joz got fodderized by Doflamingo, someone whose reactions cannot keep up with g4. The gap between reactions of 2 arm Joz and Marco should not be greater than the gap between g4 and g2 luffy.



DD never fodderised Jozu.Jozu was just fine when he's shown again after he got parasited.Meaning either DD showed mercy or Jozu escaped.Noone fodderised anyone there.


What makes you think that Luffy would make Marco flinch if even Akainu or any of the other admirals weren't able to do so?


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## RileyD (May 31, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> DD never fodderised Jozu.Jozu was just fine when he's shown again after he got parasited.Meaning either DD showed mercy or Jozu escaped.Noone fodderised anyone there.
> 
> 
> What makes you think that Luffy would make Marco flinch if even Akainu or any of the other admirals weren't able to do so?



Doflamingo was more interested in Crocodile than Jozu so he didn't drown him or shoot him in the teeth or put a five colour string down his neck to shred his non diamond internals.
Also he broke out of ice age easily but Jozu couldn't.

What are you getting at with that comment? Of course the admirals could beat the shit out of Marco, that isn't up for debate. Luffy could send Marco flying just like he sends Marco flying, it may or may not do very little damage after regen (though his regen is not infinite). and Marco could NOT send Luffy flying due to his blunt force immunity, this effectively gives luffy ring out control and superior battlefield control, someone like Law could capitalize on this by cuffing him.

Luffy is most likely going to be taking on yonkous in 4 years real world time with very little massive jumps in power, 4 years ago people thought luffy was on Jinbe's level, now Luffy is taking down Doflamingo people are downplaying Doflamingo and claiming that he was weakened dramatically more than luffy despite on panel dialogue between luffy and doflamingo contradicting that. In 4 years we'll hear how Big Mam is fodder compared to Kaido and Marco, and in another 4 years we'll hear how Teach and Akaniu could no diff Kaido and how Kaido was only at 4.357% when he fought luffy.


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## Bernkastel (May 31, 2015)

RileyD said:


> Doflamingo was more interested in Crocodile than Jozu so he didn't drown him or shoot him in the teeth or put a five colour string down his neck to shred his non diamond internals.
> Also he broke out of ice age easily but Jozu couldn't.



That's pure speculation.We have no idea how the 2 interacted after Jozu got parasited.
Also Jozu and DD were by 2 different attacks and DD was warned and Kiji wasn't there to fight.
In the case of Jozu they were in the middle of a war and Jozu was distracted by WB's sickness.



> What are you getting at with that comment? Of course the admirals could beat the shit out of Marco, that isn't up for debate. Luffy could send Marco flying just like he sends Marco flying, it may or may not do very little damage after regen (though his regen is not infinite). and Marco could NOT send Luffy flying due to his blunt force immunity, this effectively gives luffy ring out control and superior battlefield control, someone like Law could capitalize on this by cuffing him.



No admiral could beat the shit out of Marco.Aokii and Akainu are the only ones who would win anytime and Kizaru would need extreme diff if he manages to win while with Fuitora it could go either way.
Superior haki renders blunt force immunity useless.Also Marco can also use slashes to cut him.
Not even Akainu was able to pass through Marco in order to reach Luffy.No way in hell is Luffy sending Marco flying anytime soon.



> Luffy is most likely going to be taking on yonkous in 4 years real world time with very little massive jumps in power, 4 years ago people thought luffy was on Jinbe's level, now Luffy is taking down Doflamingo people are downplaying Doflamingo and claiming that he was weakened dramatically more than luffy despite on panel dialogue between luffy and doflamingo contradicting that. In 4 years we'll hear how Big Mam is fodder compared to Kaido and Marco, and in another 4 years we'll hear how Teach and Akaniu could no diff Kaido and how Kaido was only at 4.357% when he fought luffy.



I don't really get the point of this comment.BM or any other yonkou for that matter will never be fodder to anyone.


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## StrawHat4Life (May 31, 2015)

This is probably a mid difficulty (maybe on the upper end) fight for the duo. Luffy with infinite G4 would push Marco to a borderline high difficulty fight all on his own. Add in Law's hax and seemingly inexhaustible reserves, and they'll simply overwhelm Marco.


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## barreltheif (May 31, 2015)

RileyD said:


> people are downplaying Doflamingo and claiming that he was weakened dramatically more than luffy despite on panel dialogue between luffy and doflamingo contradicting that. In 4 years we'll hear how Big Mam is fodder compared to Kaido and Marco, and in another 4 years we'll hear how Teach and Akaniu could no diff Kaido and how Kaido was only at 4.357% when he fought luffy.




Doflamingo was grievously wounded by Law, and his injuries were far worse than Luffy's. This is beyond dispute. Law's ultimate attack > a punch from a dying Bellamy.





Bernkastel said:


> That's pure speculation.We have no idea how the 2 interacted after Jozu got parasited.




We do know how they interacted. Doffy sat on Jozu and had a conversation with Crocodile for a chapter. Then Croc threw a sand tornado at them.




> Also Jozu and DD were by 2 different attacks and DD was warned and Kiji wasn't there to fight.




Right. Against Doffy, Aokiji used a massive attack that froze a large portion of Punk Hazard. Against Jozu, he used a tiny attack that froze Jozu's arm, and then casually dusted off his hands.




> In the case of Jozu they were in the middle of a war and Jozu was distracted by WB's sickness.




Wrong again. Jozu was distracted by _Marco _getting hit, not WB. Marco was hit by Kizaru's laser, which didn't harm him at all, but Jozu was still distracted by this and lost the fight.


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## RileyD (May 31, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> That's pure speculation.We have no idea how the 2 interacted after Jozu got parasited.
> Also Jozu and DD were by 2 different attacks and DD was warned and Kiji wasn't there to fight.
> In the case of Jozu they were in the middle of a war and Jozu was distracted by WB's sickness.


Jozu can't escape from Ice, Doflamingo can, he is one of two people to escape from Aokiji's ice. He has a much better portrayal than Jozu in everything except the ability to tank damage specifically coming from slash attacks.



> No admiral could beat the shit out of Marco.Aokii and Akainu are the only ones who would win anytime and Kizaru would need extreme diff if he manages to win while with Fuitora it could go either way.
> Superior haki renders blunt force immunity useless.Also Marco can also use slashes to cut him.
> Not even Akainu was able to pass through Marco in order to reach Luffy.No way in hell is Luffy sending Marco flying anytime soon.


Akainu would beat the shit out of Marco, read those chapters again you have selective memory.
Marco could barely *slow a severly bleeding Akainu down* depsite him and the other WB pirates all focusing on that goal.
Marco slowed him down for ONE ATTACK and then shouted and Jinbe to escape with him (he couldn't protect him in a closed environment he needed distance to be created)
WB QUAKED HIM
Ivankov Hell winking to slow him down
Crocodile slowing him down and blasting Luffy/Jinbe to Buggy
Buggy flying them
Jinbe TAKING A HIT meant for Luffy
Law turning up with a submarine
Coby buying precious seconds (as confirmed by Shanks as saving Luffy)
Shanks appearing and stopping Akainu

But yeah sure, Akainu couldn't get past Marco to kill Luffy.

Aokiji could freeze marco and then put him in the sea, low diff, no CoC or vibrations to break out of the ice. 

Kizaru is faster and has better portrayal vs Marco. 

Fuji is doing nothing this arc, but his gravity hax could probably force Marco to ring out/drowning depending on the environment.

If luffy sent Doflamingo flying as far as he did he can send marco flying a smaller but still significant distance, marco does NOT have massive blowback resistance, he has regen. One of G4's massive upgrades is his blowback from the recoil.

How superior does someones haki have to be to negate blunt force immunity? We have no idea. I'm betting it is very difficult to pass through blunt force hence why it was made such a big deal of how he has effectively regained his grand line ability in the new world otherwise it would be no different from normal haki defence. Doflamingo has slightly better haki but could not overcome his new defence, and it works *differently to haki defence in that he actually bounces*. Haki allows the user to touch and damage the fruit users body as normal, so when you are fighting a logia it becomes a straight haki +strength vs haki+ durability match with the intangibility negated.
Supposing there is a threshold of haki superiority it would be relegated to yonkou tier characters not second in commands.

We also have no idea to the limits of Marco's regen, just like we didn't know Laws power used stamina, I'm betting it turns out to be very limited, because Marco is a good guy and good guys aren't allowed hax without repercussions. 


> I don't really get the point of this comment.BM or any other yonkou for that matter will never be fodder to anyone.


People are claiming Doflamingo is massively inferiror to Marco despite his portrayal in the war v.s his closest peer. They are doing that to artificially inflate the power scales and downplay luffy's achievements. With every victory of Luffy they will downplay his strength.


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## Bernkastel (May 31, 2015)

barreltheif said:


> We do know how they interacted. Doffy sat on Jozu and had a conversation with Crocodile for a chapter. Then Croc threw a sand tornado at them.



Oh right my memory sux as usual.Still DD never fodderised him.not even close.




> Right. Against Doffy, Aokiji used a massive attack that froze a large portion of Punk Hazard. Against Jozu, he used a tiny attack that froze Jozu's arm, and then casually dusted off his hands.



Concentrated attacks can be more lethal than huge AoE attacks.And Kiji didn't just freeze him he also attacked him after he froze.Same would have happened to Doffy if Kiji wanted to attack.




> Wrong again. Jozu was distracted by _Marco _getting hit, not WB. Marco was hit by Kizaru's laser, which didn't harm him at all, but Jozu was still distracted by this and lost the fight.



Still point stands that Jozu was distracted.DD was warned first and still got frozen instantly and stayed alive cause plot/Kiji allowed it.


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## RileyD (May 31, 2015)

barreltheif said:


> Doflamingo was grievously wounded by Law, and his injuries were far worse than Luffy's. This is beyond dispute. Law's ultimate attack > a punch from a dying Bellamy.


Bellamy dying or not means nothing, he had this broken haki attack with a massively unwieldly set of requirements (person to stand still and tank your telegraphed attack, set of narrowly constructed walls to actually bounce off of)

He took 3 of these attacks basically unguarded, and ended up in a much worse state afterwards vs. Doflas attacks in the arc which barely made him spit up blood and he was generally reacting to, blocking etc. These attacks were all stronger/ did more damage than an athlete thread, whether that makes any sense logically or not, it is the case.

It was a massive set up move that Luffy tanked out of pride, it was like Lucci tanking G3, .retarded


Law overrated his move (it didn't even PUT DOWN Doflamingo who was about to KILL law in retaliation witha  five colour strings style move) go reread this. And he underrated Doflamingos ability to mitigate it's effects through his ridiculous fruit- hence the shock at him getting up and going back with very little slow down from his earlier portrayals.


You are going against what Oda has stated clearly on panel out of your own idea of what the manga should be.

Doflamingo noticed and taunted Luffy that he got weaker, Luffy replied that "you got weaker too".
Why would Doflamingo taunt Luffy for becoming weaker if he was the one suffering more of a handicap. 
 Again why would Doflamingo actively taunt Luffy about his handicap if he was more handicapped than Luffy?


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## Bernkastel (May 31, 2015)

RileyD said:


> Jozu can't escape from Ice, Doflamingo can, he is one of two people to escape from Aokiji's ice. He has a much better portrayal than Jozu in everything except the ability to tank damage specifically coming from slash attacks



No Jozu actually fought Aokiji pretty well till he got distracted..DD got frozen instantly after being warned first and all he did is pant and run away.He certainly didn't have better portrayal.Kiji was so casuall with DD it isn't even funny.



> People are claiming Doflamingo is massively inferiror to Marco despite his portrayal in the war v.s his closest peer. They are doing that to artificially inflate the power scales and downplay luffy's achievements. With every victory of Luffy they will downplay his strength.



He is inferior but not massively.DD and Jozu are closer to each other than they are to Marco.
Marco is closer to the admirals than he is to  Jozu/DD.
His feats,portrayal and hype clearly indicates that much.
I don't think Luffy is downplayed by any sane person especially after G4.With infinite G4 is above DD.

And sorry but i won't read that tl;dr  so please summarise it if you don't mind.


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## RileyD (May 31, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> Still point stands that Jozu was distracted.DD was warned first and still got frozen instantly and stayed alive cause plot/Kiji allowed it.


Jozu lost due to his carelessness during a fight. 
DD got frozen in the first place because of plot, he didn't have to keep his back to Aokiji and go against his warning but did it anyway just so Oda could show he could break out of the ice to the readers.
He Instantly broke out, turned around and went into defensive mode, then casually struts past Aokiji,  Doflas portrayal here was very good against an admiral (ignoring warnings, breaking out of something only WB has done), walking away from Aokiji, and the purpose was to hype him as the villain for the arc...

It's a much better portrayal than Joz, you really can't deny that.


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## Bernkastel (May 31, 2015)

RileyD said:


> Jozu lost due to his carelessness during a fight.
> DD got frozen in the first place because of plot, he didn't have to keep his back to Aokiji and go against his warning but did it anyway just so Oda could show he could break out of the ice to the readers.
> He Instantly broke out, turned around and went into defensive mode, then *casually struts past Aokiji*,  Doflas portrayal here was very good against an admiral (ignoring warnings, breaking out of something only WB has done), walking away from Aokiji, and the purpose was to hype him as the villain for the arc...
> 
> It's a much better portrayal than Joz, you really can't deny that.



Cause he let him as he wasn't there to fight hiim.

Point is that during that scene Kiji was casual af..with his hands in his pockets.Him breaking out of Kiji's ice was ok but the fact that he froze him and the just stood there instead of breaking him instantly diminishes the feat quite a bit as it means that Aokiji simply wasn't interested in killing him and allowed him to live.


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## RileyD (May 31, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> No Jozu actually fought Aokiji pretty well till he got distracted..DD got frozen instantly after being warned first and all he did is pant and run away.He certainly didn't have better portrayal.Kiji was so casuall with DD it isn't even funny.


DD Ignored his warning and broke out of his move, walked past him and taunted him. This was a plot device to hype Doflamingo.
Jozu did NOT have a good fight with Aokiji who relied on the chaos of the war and trying to backstab Aokiji *while he was being attacked by WB*.
Marco's portrayal vs Kizaru was him intercepting an attack meant for WB, kicking him while grimacing, then Kizaru not even shown standing up, but being in a relaxed stance in the immediate next panel with zero damage giving orders to VAs casually.



> He is inferior but not massively.DD and Jozu are closer to each other than they are to Marco.
> Marco is closer to the admirals than he is to  Jozu/DD.
> His feats,portrayal and hype clearly indicates that much.


Marco's only two feats are his movement speed (not reactions) and his regen. He has not had more hype than Doflamingo. Doflamingos feats are vastly more impressive.
We haven't seen Doflamingo fight an admiral properly, I'd estimate he'd do better than Marco, because he actually has damaging attacks.



> I don't think Luffy is downplayed by any sane person especially after G4.With infinite G4 is above DD.
> 
> And sorry but i won't read that tl;dr  so please summarise it if you don't mind.


DD's handicap vs Luffys handicap is overplayed in direct contradiction to the dialogue.
tl;dr: Jinbe escaped with luffy, Shank stopped Akainu, Marco didn't stop or really even slow down Akainu.
further tl;dr: G4 blunt force defense was hyped and is not going to go away except vs blackbeard's fruit hence hyping the final fight.


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## RileyD (May 31, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> Cause he let him as he wasn't there to fight hiim.
> 
> Point is that during that scene Kiji was casual af..with his hands in his pockets.Him breaking out of Kiji's ice was ok but the fact that he froze him and the just stood there instead of breaking him instantly diminishes the feat quite a bit as it means that Aokiji simply wasn't interested in killing him and allowed him to live.



Doflamingo was taunting with his hands in his pockets half the time, was not taking Aokiji seriously by ignoring his warning. 
You could say the same thing about not trying to crack whitebeard, freezing is lethal and it usually kills his enemy, he didn't think he needed to coup de grace. He didn't even coup de grace Jozu by snapping his neck frozen.
Doflamingo negated Aokiji's main method of killing despite having his back to Aokiji and not taking him seriously, and without the hax of the Gura Gura.
Aokiji didn't want to fight Doflamingo partially because he would probably suffer some injuries from a fight and because his demands were met.


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## Bernkastel (May 31, 2015)

RileyD said:


> DD Ignored his warning and broke out of his move, walked past him and taunted him. This was a plot device to hype Doflamingo.
> Jozu did NOT have a good fight with Aokiji who relied on the chaos of the war and trying to backstab Aokiji *while he was being attacked by WB*.
> Marco's portrayal vs Kizaru was him intercepting an attack meant for WB, kicking him while grimacing, then Kizaru not even shown standing up, but being in a relaxed stance in the immediate next panel with zero damage giving orders to VAs casually.



Ignored and got frozen instantly before he could move a finger.Then he broke out and run away.when did he taunt him? As i said before my memory sux so please provide the scan if u can. 



> Marco's only two feats are his movement speed (not reactions) and his regen. He has not had more hype than Doflamingo. Doflamingos feats are vastly more impressive.
> We haven't seen Doflamingo fight an admiral properly, I'd estimate he'd do better than Marco, because he actually has damaging attacks.



Marco kept up with Kizaru kicked both him and Aokiji sending both flying and blocked an enraged Akainu from getting Luffy.Being the first mate of the WSM and current leader of the WB pirates..Shanks wanted to recruit him and has a fruit that tops even the logias.

Please show me the feats or hype that DD has over Marco.
Cause fighting Luffy/Law and not even managin to kill them is not even close.
Marco tangoed with actuall top-tiers while DD struggles vs high tiers.




> DD's handicap vs Luffys handicap is overplayed in direct contradiction to the dialogue.
> tl;dr: Jinbe escaped with luffy, Shank stopped Akainu, Marco didn't stop or really even slow down Akainu.


I agree if you mean that Luffy almost equally injured as DD as i dont think Gamma knife did much since the latter managed to stitch the wounds before it's too late.

Point is Akainu couldn't get past Marco directly and had to avoid him in order to reach Luffy.Otherwise he would beat the shit out of him as you said and be dne with it.



> further tl;dr: G4 blunt force defense was hyped and is not going to go away except vs blackbeard's fruit hence hyping the final fight.



Was hyped how? Cause DD an inferior character than Marco couldn't bypass ut when in G4?
Marco has better haki and strength.He can also use slashes.


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## RileyD (May 31, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> Ignored and got frozen instantly before he could move a finger.Then he broke out and run away.when did he taunt him? As i said before my memory sux so please provide the scan if u can.


Chapter 699, no running, he strutted past Aokiji and told him he heard bad rumours about him,hands in pockets grinning. Look at the distance Dofla covered with his hand, he moved it from the air to 10cm away from smokers face before getting frozen. 


> Marco kept up with Kizaru kicked both him and Aokiji sending both flying and blocked an enraged Akainu from getting Luffy.Being the first mate of the WSM and current leader of the WB pirates..Shanks wanted to recruit him and has a fruit that tops even the logias.
> 
> Please show me the feats or hype that DD has over Marco.
> Cause fighting Luffy/Law and not even managin to kill them is not even close.
> Marco tangoed with actuall top-tiers while DD struggles vs high tiers.


Shanks is a playful guy, half of that was trolling WB by asking his crewmember to join him, Marco is strong good guy belonging to his strongest rival, if Doflamingo was a good guy and Shanks had access to talk to him I'm sure he'd invite Doflamingo to his crew. It tops them in terms of regen, not lethality and the regen has limits.


Marco BLOCKED ONE ATTACK from Akainu, he didn't "tango" with them in any meaningful way. 
He could not stop Akainu from killing Luffy, someone on the same level should be able to stall and protect someone, as Luffy stalled and protected Law from Doflamingo several times, as Vista stalled and protected Luffy from Mihawk. Luffy needed the help of about 8 people, one of whom was Shanks to survive Akainu.

Marco Regenned from a Kizaru attack aimed at WB 553
Kicks Kizaru in 554 a fodder Marine is scared for Kizaru "Kizaru- oh" *He is standing completely undamaged *giving orders to VA. this was a pretty funny reaction shot actually.
Marco saves luffy from a non serious Aokiji with a back stab kick that does zero damage to Aokiji in 566
Vice Admiral ambushes him in 569
Marco Regens an attack in 575 from Akainu but is not able to slow Akainu down to save luffy by himself
Marco uses haki with Vista but does no damage to Akainu


Doflamingo feats: Birdcage
parasiting someone of Jozu's caliber 
capable of King's haki clashes
Capable of escaping Aokiji's ice
Stopping fujitoras attacks 
Tanking g4 hits with that blowback, without regen.
Frankly keeping up with g2 is a massively underrated feat seeing how fast luffy is.



> Point is Akainu couldn't get past Marco directly and had to avoid him in order to reach Luffy.Otherwise he would beat the shit out of him as you said and be dne with it.


Marco's regen takes time to deal with, doesn't mean it is difficult, time was so important and crucial that even Coby's talking slowed Akainu down enough to save luffy, he couldn't afford to waste time on Marco. 
Could Akainu beat the shit out of Sabo? Sure, could he beat the shit out of Sabo if he had the entire revolutionary army fighting him as well and his main goal was to kill an unconscious fodder being protected by Jinbe, Vista,Crocodile, WHITEBEARD and seconds away from escaping.



> Was hyped how? Cause DD an inferior character than Marco couldn't bypass when in G4?
> Marco has better haki and strength.He can also use slashes.


The reason why PIS let Doffy who couldn't react to g4 to hit Luffy was 1) to showcase Culverin 2) To show the regaining of blunt force immunity. It is completely different to normal haki guard. 

What would be the point of reintroducing blunt force immunity for it to be overcome by haki again. It would be no different from haki guarding at that point. I don't understand what you think Oda reintroduced this for if not to demonstrate this. The internal monologues, and the mirroring of "it's useless" and even the pose luffy made while doing it all mirror east blue/grand line era ability, for the new world. It is not going to be taken down by anything short of the Yami negating his fruit. A lot of thought was put in how this ability was shown.

Doffy used athlete which is cutting as well and more impressive than those talons.
Marco doesn't have better haki or strength, he did no damage to any admiral and relied on cheap shots for ALL his hits. Doflamingo would do *some * damage to an admiral before being beaten, marco would just keep regenning while doing no damage himself.


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## Bernkastel (May 31, 2015)

RileyD said:


> Chapter 699, no running, he strutted past Aokiji and told him he heard bad rumours about him,hands in pockets grinning. Look at the distance Dofla covered with his hand, he moved it from the air to 10cm away from smokers face before getting frozen.



Don't take everything literally.."running" away "moving his fingers"..yeah he moved 10cm point is he couldn't touch Smoker once Aokiji decided that.Obviously he wasn't running..what i meant is that despite his cockiness he still decided to run away instead of fighting even though Kiji's casual ice attack he acted all high and mighty.



> Shanks is a playful guy, half of that was trolling WB by asking his crewmember to join him, Marco is strong good guy belonging to his strongest rival, if Doflamingo was a good guy and Shanks had access to talk to him I'm sure he'd invite Doflamingo to his crew. It tops them in terms of regen, not lethality and the regen has limits.



No he isn't just a strong guy..Jozu was there too and so was Vista...but Shanks noticed Marco and talked directly to him ignoring the others. "Ifs" dont account for anything in DD's case..you can't use an "if" scenario to hype him.

Lethality means little compared to the ablilities his fruit provides.
He didn't even flinch when taking head on YnM one of the deadliest DFs in existence.
Imo that fruit is up there with Gura gura and other top tier fruits like ope ope.



> Marco BLOCKED ONE ATTACK from Akainu, he didn't "tango" with them in any meaningful way.
> He could not stop Akainu from killing Luffy, someone on the same level should be able to stall and protect someone, as Luffy stalled and protected Law from Doflamingo several times, as Vista stalled and protected Luffy from Mihawk. Luffy needed the help of about 8 people, one of whom was Shanks to survive Akainu.



Luffy wasn't chased by Akainu only..and yeah he tanked one attack that completely stopped Akainu from killing Luffy.Most people would be dead by that attack including DD.
But one person alone can't protect Luffy in a war full of Marines so ofc he would get help from many people.

Also i ask you again..if Akainu a much stronger character couldn't at least push/send flying/move away Marco in order to reach Luffy what makes you think that Luffy will be able to protect Law from Marco?The guy has propably the best defense in the manga.

Akainu was enraged..Mihawk wasn't even remotely serious as Akainu was and wasn't really trying to kill Luffy...you can't compare those 2 scenarios.



> Marco Regenned from a Kizaru attack aimed at WB 553
> Kicks Kizaru in 554 a fodder Marine is scared for Kizaru "Kizaru- oh" *He is standing completely undamaged *giving orders to VA. this was a pretty funny reaction shot actually.
> Marco saves luffy from a non serious Aokiji with a back stab kick that does zero damage to Aokiji in 566
> Vice Admiral ambushes him in 569
> ...



What des it matter if it was aimed at WB? he still tanked all of it.Him overpowering him and sending him flying with a casual kick is more than enough.Kizaru used one of his strongest techniques and didn't even make him flinch.

Aokiji was pretty serious as he was about to kill him.
How do you know it did zero damage?Just cause he wasn't dead by freaking kick doesn't mean it did zero damage.

Yeah their haki was obviously unstable since haki=willpower and they just lost Ace.
Also Akainu has superior haki and great DF mastery so it's understandable that at their state they weren't able to connect.




> Doflamingo feats: Birdcage
> parasiting someone of Jozu's caliber
> capable of King's haki clashes
> Capable of escaping Aokiji's ice
> ...



Plotcage.
Ok.
See Chinjao.
Ok many people of that caliber or higher could do that.
What attacks? i only remember a moment where DD's foot is at Fuji's sword.
I don't know what blowback is but he never tanked anything from G4.He survived a few attacks.Tanking =/= taking no/minimal damage.
What do you mean?




> Marco's regen takes time to deal with, doesn't mean it is difficult, time was so important and crucial that even Coby's talking slowed Akainu down enough to save luffy, he couldn't afford to waste time on Marco.
> Could Akainu beat the shit out of Sabo? Sure, could he beat the shit out of Sabo if he had the entire revolutionary army fighting him as well and his main goal was to kill an unconscious fodder being protected by Jinbe, Vista,Crocodile, WHITEBEARD and seconds away from escaping.



Ofc it's difficult..you also have to bypass his natural defenses on top of his regen.Not any attack can harm him.

Akainu wasn't alone...he had an army of Marines too.Marco alone obviously couldn't protect Luffy from everyone there but he certainly could if it was Marco vs Akainu just till Luffy escapes.




> What would be the point of reintroducing blunt force immunity for it to be overcome by haki again. It would be no different from haki guarding at that point. I don't understand what you think Oda reintroduced this for if not to demonstrate this. The internal monologues, and the mirroring of "it's useless" and even the pose luffy made while doing it all mirror east blue/grand line era ability, for the new world. It is not going to be taken down by anything short of the Yami negating his fruit. A lot of thought was put in how this ability was shown.



That's NLF.You can't say that he has blunt forcce immunity in a fight vs a stronger character than he fought before.Till Luffy shows more the most he can guard is DD level kicks.Otherwise we might as well say he can defend against Garp's punches.



Doffy





> used athlete which is cutting as well and more impressive than those talons.
> Marco doesn't have better haki or strength, he did no damage to any admiral and relied on cheap shots for ALL his hits. Doflamingo would do *some * damage to an admiral before being beaten, marco would just keep regenning while doing no damage himself.



What the...seriously show me those feats DD damaging an admiral.And Marco did damage..it ust wasn't enough to put them down which is to be expected since it was mostly to protect others and not direct fights.

Ofc he has...DD's best feat is beating Law/G2-G3 Luffy.
Marco being able to connect with admirals,keeping up,damaging(even though not much) and defending against all 3 of them implies that DD < Marco.


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## Tenma (Jun 1, 2015)

Jozu fought on par with Aokiji and was consistently portrayed in a similar light to Marco. He's not much weaker.

Pretty sure it was generally accepted DD was stronger than Jozu until Law and Luffy were shown to be capable of fighting him, then people started saying the Admirals could low-diff him or some shit. Even after Fuji has proven helpless in his birdcage.

Based on their individual performances against him, Luffy and Law together going all out would have decisively defeated DD. It should be harder for Marco, but the duo should prevail.


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## Yuki (Jun 1, 2015)

Tenma said:


> Jozu fought on par with Aokiji and was consistently portrayed in a similar light to Marco. He's not much weaker.



Jozu attacked him once and then got oneshot the next time he was on panel. Meanwhile Marco attacked all 3 admirals and took attacks from two of them multiple attacks in the case of Kizaru. Plus he took an attack from Garp and still exited the war pretty much unscathed. While Jozu had to be moved out by others after one attack from Kuzan. 



> Pretty sure it was generally accepted DD was stronger than Jozu until Law and Luffy were shown to be capable of fighting him, then people started saying the Admirals could low-diff him or some shit. Even after Fuji has proven helpless in his birdcage.



No, people said that Jozu was stronger for ages. Some even said Vista was stronger years ago. DDs stance in that way has not changed that much at all. Most people still consider him at that level. I my self find Jozu and Vista extremely overrated. 



> Based on their individual performances against him, Luffy and Law together going all out would have decisively defeated DD. It should be harder for Marco, but the duo should prevail.



Yes they would have if they fought him together. It would have been a mid dif fight at most.


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## Tenma (Jun 1, 2015)

> Jozu attacked him once and then got oneshot the next time he was on panel. Meanwhile Marco attacked all 3 admirals and took attacks from two of them multiple attacks in the case of Kizaru. Plus he took an attack from Garp and still exited the war pretty much unscathed. While Jozu had to be moved out by others after one attack from Kuzan.



They fought for longer than the duration of WB vs Akainu and when we next saw him Jozu was unscratched.



> No, people said that Jozu was stronger for ages. Some even said Vista was stronger years ago. DDs stance in that way has not changed that much at all. Most people still consider him at that level. I my self find Jozu and Vista extremely overrated.



Eh, coulda sworn most people still believed DD superior, or at least it was an approximate 50-50 split.

The Marineford crew (Admirals+WB+top commanders) in general is hilariously overrated. For reasons I don't know (beating up VAs and pre-skip Luffy? eh) they seem to be considered grossly above the current protagonists/villians no matter how impressive their feats are.



> Yes they would have if they fought him together. It would have been a mid dif fight at most.



Unless you believe Marco would have defeated DD easily the SN duo should be able to beat him too.


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## Ryuksgelus (Jun 1, 2015)

Marco would defeat DD easily :/.

Damn, probably 2-3 years of these kinds of  G4 threads until Kaidou no sell blocks a Kong Gun or laughs off a direct hit.


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## Bernkastel (Jun 1, 2015)

Tenma said:


> Eh, coulda sworn most people still believed DD superior, or at least it was an approximate 50-50 split.
> 
> The Marineford crew (Admirals+WB+top commanders) in general is hilariously overrated. For reasons I don't know (beating up VAs and pre-skip Luffy? eh) they seem to be considered grossly above the current protagonists/villians no matter how impressive their feats are.




Compared to current villains/protagonists i doubt they're overrated.
The guys at MF fought top-tiers all around.
The strongest person after the time-skip is DD and the strongest opponent he fought was Luffy/Law,both strong high tiers but that's it. DD in his 2 skirmishes with admirals never fought so we can't be sure how well he would do against them but he should give them mid diff for sure.


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## Tenma (Jun 1, 2015)

> Compared to current villains/protagonists i doubt they're overrated.
> The guys at MF fought top-tiers all around.
> The strongest person after the time-skip is DD and the strongest opponent he fought was Luffy/Law,both strong high tiers but that's it. DD in his 2 skirmishes with admirals never fought so we can't be sure how well he would do against them but he should give them mid diff for sure.



See, that's precisely the kind of logic I was talking about.

'The C3 fought the top tiers at Marineford while Fuji didn't, hence they must be stronger!'
'DD is weaker than everyone notable n MF! (Including Vista and Jozu)'

At this point, we don't know where Luffy, Zoro and Law stand compared to the Marineford guys. No admiral has even beaten any of them (on the contrary, Dressrossa showed that VAs were shit to them and they could decently fight against an Admiral), nor have they shown to be weaker than a Yonkou Commander (Burgess certainly didn't look overpowering to M3 levels and even Sabo didn't seem far above them).

DD has decisively beaten both Luffy and Law at this stage, indicating he is quite abit above them both. There's no reason for him to fall below Jozu and Vista. The Marineford guys don't exist in their little bubble of invincibility.


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## Bernkastel (Jun 1, 2015)

Tenma said:


> See, that's precisely the kind of logic I was talking about.
> 
> 'The C3 fought the top tiers at Marineford while Fuji didn't, hence they must be stronger!'
> 'DD is weaker than everyone notable n MF! (Including Vista and Jozu)'



Whoever believes Vista is stronger than DD is delusional..there's nothing suggesting that..and Jozu imo is nigh equal to DD and it could go either way between the 2 as both of them would give mid diff to an admiral.
I'm not sure what u mean with the Fuji statement but till he shows more than the other admirals  he shouldn't get the benefit of the doubt.But even so their difference if any exists should be minmal.



> At this point, we don't know where Luffy, Zoro and Law stand compared to the Marineford guys. No admiral has even beaten any of them (on the contrary, Dressrossa showed that VAs were shit to them and they could decently fight against an Admiral), nor have they shown to be weaker than a Yonkou Commander (Burgess certainly didn't look overpowering to M3 levels and even Sabo didn't seem far above them).



Decently fight? i doubt it..Zoro has shown nothing that would give an admiral more than mid diff at most.Same goes for Luffy w/o G4. 
As for the commanders it depends..not all commanders are the same and we don't even know where Burgess stands in BB hierarchy. Marco in this case is the strongest 1st mate imo.



> DD has decisively beaten both Luffy and Law at this stage, indicating he is quite abit above them both. There's no reason for him to fall below Jozu and Vista. The Marineford guys don't exist in their little bubble of invincibility.



Same as above..Vista isn't ..Jozu should be nigh equal to him and could go either way between them imo.


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## Coruscation (Jun 1, 2015)

> Whoever believes Vista is stronger than DD is delusional..there's nothing suggesting that..



How is there nothing suggesting that? How is that remotely delusional?

Vista did better against Mihawk than DD did against G4.

I repeat.

Vista did better against Mihawk than DD did against G4.

This is fact. Cold hard fact.

Does anyone believe G4 > Mihawk? Raise your hands now.

You would have to argue that Mihawk was holding back so much that in a serious fight he would treat Vista even worse than G4 treated Doflamingo. Which, if true, makes the entire scene between him and Vista almost completely meaningless. Because the point of the scene was that Vista was a respectable opponent who could hold his own with Mihawk, but if in truth he would get wrecked even worse than G4 wrecked Mingo then those things aren't true.

It is still theoretically possible. Oda is odd like that sometimes. But don't parade about this crap about it being _delusional_.

We've now finally seen Doflamingo get his ass absolutely wrecked. By G4 Luffy. A powerful mode but is it Yonkou level? Vista fought a Yonkou level individual and _didn't_ get that badly wrecked. People have been saying for years on end that that is an incredibly impressive portrayal. The downplayers have argued tooth and nail. But what now? Doffy got tossed around like a ragdoll by a most probably not Yonkou level entity. So where does the argument go from here?

Maybe it's time to accept Oda has consistently avoided showing Doffy being able to actually 1v1 a Yonkou/Admiral class fighter for an actual reason?

This is NOT the time to be downplaying Vista. We've just seen how badly Doffy did against G4 Luffy whilst Vista did clearly better against one of the strongest individuals in the OP verse.


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## Bernkastel (Jun 1, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> How is there nothing suggesting that? How is that remotely delusional?
> 
> Vista did better against Mihawk than DD did against G4.
> 
> ...



Mihawk wasn't even remotedly serious..Vista would give mid diff to a serious Mihawk.Luffy also reacted to Mihawk's attacks...should i consider pre-skip Luffy at his level? ofc not.

To think that Vista is stronger than DD would mean that he is a low top-tier and Jozu a stronger character an even stronger top-tier.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 1, 2015)

Yea Vista is a top tier.

And Jozu and even stronger top tier.

Comparing Vista vs mihawk. To luffy running away from Mihawk


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## Bernkastel (Jun 1, 2015)

Point is Mihawk wasn't even trying...Vista only managed to hold off a non-serious Mihawk dealing zero damage.
That's no indication of him being stronger than DD or even a top-tier..


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## RileyD (Jun 1, 2015)

Tenma said:


> DD has decisively beaten both Luffy and Law at this stage, indicating he is quite abit above them both. There's no reason for him to fall below Jozu and Vista. The Marineford guys don't exist in their little bubble of invincibility.



Re-read the arc and see that the majority of times luffy was attacked and  actually damaged was Bellamy PIS/ babysitting Law, not to mention PIS of g4 Luffy "being one attack away" but wasting time just so we can have 6 chapters of bird cage and an "epic end"

"decisively" is far too strong a word for Luffy vs Doffy, they were very evenly matched, compared to law who landed one hit on doflamingo by himself the whole arc and kept getting incapacitated.

G4 is an example of being decisively stronger than Doffy

This isn't a knock to Doflamingo, just Luffy is that strong.


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## Lawliet (Jun 1, 2015)

Anyone who thinks Vista > Doffy is delusional. Yeah I said it and I'll say it again, delusional. There's no amount of posts you can make that can convince me of otherwise. 

Yes Mihawk was holding that much Coru you better believe it unless you believe MF Luffy can also dodge Mihawk and stall the amount of time he did against Mihawk. You must believe that Mihawk wasn't holding 90% of his strength which is why NOT ONLY VISTA, BUT EVEN LUFFY WAS ABLE TO LOOK SEMI DECENT AGAINST HIM. That or you think  pre skip Luffy  and Mihawk are actually comparable to the point where Mihawk fails to land a 2nd hit on Luffy even when he was actually trying.

Coru plz, stop arguing for the sake of arguing.

Doffy > Vista



> Comparing Vista vs mihawk. To luffy running away from Mihawk



Yes I'll fucking compare it, why not? Mihawk and Vista were literally shown fighting for like what, one page? Where we saw Luffy successfully dodge Mihawk multiple times. And not only that, Mihawk only landed ONE ATTACK in their entire encounter and it was an off guard attack Luffy did not see coming because he thought he got away the first time, which he was wrong about. Now... Can Mihawk really not land even a 2nd attack on pre skip Luffy? You really believe that? You must. Or you believe he held most of his strength back. 

That or you believe he held against Luffy and went out on Vista which is dumb.

We all saw that Pica can fucking stall. But what happens when he and Zoro actually go at it, head to head? He got fucking destroyed. He got destroyed. I am not fucking talking about the admiral launching Zoro and all that bullshit. I am talking about when the two actually confronted each other face to face with Pica's intentions to actually fight Zoro to the end this time with his full body Haki. He got fucking destroyed. Mihawk would destroy Vista the same way Zoro destroyed Pica and if you really think otherwise then embrace yourself for the incoming disappointment you'll encounter once Oda reintroduces the WB's for their final fall.


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## Ryuksgelus (Jun 1, 2015)

Using Luffy and Pica as an argument for why Mihawk held back against Vista. New lows on the OL. Funny you can't use a single scene of Mihawk and Vista to prove Mihawk>>>>Vista. Nope it has to be completely unrelated scenes with completely different characters

Yep, the delusional person is the person who takes the dialog and portrayal at face value instead of making up his own facts.

*Not the person *who apparently thinks the contrasting portrayal between the ants and Vista is purposely misleading. You must think Marco was overrating Vista and sending him on a suicide mission too huh. That MIhawk asked to end the fight because of plot.

Please stop being an idiot and if you can't kill yourself because you're obscenely stupid.. Mihawk does not waste time with weaklings. That was *the entire point *of the scene with the trannies. They were not worth remembering. 

Vista is a person Mihawk never met yet still made a mental note about him. Who Mihawk politely asked to stop a skirmish. If he could have ended it he would have done so. You're only argument is that all the information that contracts your asinine viewpoint is must be misleading PIS because you say so.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 1, 2015)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Anyone who thinks Vista > Doffy is delusional. Yeah I said it and I'll say it again, delusional. There's no amount of posts you can make that can convince me of otherwise.
> 
> Yes Mihawk was holding that much Coru you better believe it unless you believe MF Luffy can also dodge Mihawk and stall the amount of time he did against Mihawk. You must believe that Mihawk wasn't holding 90% of his strength which is why NOT ONLY VISTA, BUT EVEN LUFFY WAS ABLE TO LOOK SEMI DECENT AGAINST HIM. That or you think  pre skip Luffy  and Mihawk are actually comparable to the point where Mihawk fails to land a 2nd hit on Luffy even when he was actually trying.
> 
> ...







Mihawk does not ask fodder to stop a match. If Mihawk could give Vista the G4 treatment he would of and went about his business like he did vs Mr.1  It should also go without saying that Luffy has Plot Shield. A White-beard Pirate that was just introduced(Vista) has no such plot shield.  What reason is there for Mihawk not to defeat Vista quickly, its not like oda had vista to do some super important plot relevant actions later in the war.


So again not comparable 

Comparing Vista vs Mihawk to Pica Vs Zoro is even more absurd. How exactly was Vista stalling Mihawk like Pica did to Zoro with what exactly? 

Here are the facts.

Mihawk and Vista Clash on Marcos command*(Meaning Marco thinks Vista can hold off Mihawk, oh but what the hell does marco know dude is stupid)*
Mihawk shows Respect to Vista.*(Meaning Vista is no random scrub) *
Mihawk and Vista precede to fight off-panel.*(Self explanatory they fight, not a one shot, not a one sided beat down they fight)*
Mihawk asks Vista if they can stop fighting.*(Apparently Mihawk wants to leave but instead of steamrolling vista like Zoro did Pica he just asks, makes sense)*
Vista Says that would be good for both of us.*(Vista implies that continuing the fight would be bad for both of them, aka Vista does not think Mihawk can roll over him, but of course a veteran pirate swordsmen of a Yonkou crew surely must be underestimating the hell out of the WSS).*

Unlike with the Main Character Mihawk has no reason not to make a joke out of Vista. So cry more but Mihawk can't give Vista the G4 treatment. Absolutely nothing implies he can.  Vista>DD.


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## Coruscation (Jun 1, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> Mihawk wasn't even remotedly serious..Vista would give mid diff to a serious Mihawk.Luffy also reacted to Mihawk's attacks...should i consider pre-skip Luffy at his level? ofc not.
> 
> To think that Vista is stronger than DD would mean that he is a low top-tier and Jozu a stronger character an even stronger top-tier.



If Mihawk wasn't remotely serious what is the point of that scene to you? Anyone with functioning eyes can tell the point was to tell us *Vista is strong*. Now tell me: if the thing in the scene that tells us Vista is strong is just one big fakeout, _what is the point of the scene_? Is it a scene Oda threw in there quite literally for shits and giggles? Or to deceive the readers about how strong the 5th Commander of the WB pirates are? Now why on earth would he want to do that?

I agree Vista would give only give Mihawk mid diff at best. But that's actually better than what Doflamingo was accomplishing against Gear 4th. And I ask again do you really believe Gear 4th >= Mihawk?



			
				Lawliet said:
			
		

> You must believe that Mihawk wasn't holding 90% of his strength which is why NOT ONLY VISTA, BUT EVEN LUFFY WAS ABLE TO LOOK SEMI DECENT AGAINST HIM. That or you think pre skip Luffy and Mihawk are actually comparable to the point where Mihawk fails to land a 2nd hit on Luffy even when he was actually trying.



An absurd non-sequitur, Lawliet. There's no relation between Mihawk's fights with Vista and his "fight" against Luffy. He was toying with Luffy, teasing him. Against Vista the first words he spoke were that he would be a fool not to know the name of the man in front of him, who was confidently smiling and had his crewmate's full trust in being able to hold off the World's Strongest.

Believing that Vista would actually get SHITWRECKED by Mihawk if the latter began to get serious goes against every single thing about Vista's portrayal and the point of such a scene existing in the first place. What basis do you have for it? Your own personal refusal to believe a relatively unimportant character might actually be stronger than an arc villain like Doflamingo? That's bullshit. Arc villains are basically as strong as their time of showing up in the story in this series. Croc was a badass mofo with shit-tons more screentime, importance and love from the author than Vista can ever dream of -- but Vista would slice his head off zero diff any day of the week. Story importance =/= strength unless the characters are comparable to begin with. Vista is a crewmember of a defunct Yonkou crew that used to be the world's strongest, Doffy is a big time arc villain for Luffy and NW underground broker. They're not remotely comparable to begin with so using story importance to grade their power is utterly fallacious.

This section's obsession with deciding to believe absurd things just because they don't like the idea of certain characters being stronger than others is laughable. When people take those ideas and start to claim that believing anything else than said absurd thing is delusional, it's just sad.

Vista has something Doflamingo and all his fanboys wishes so badly he had. Portrayal of ACTUALLY FIGHTING a Yonkou level character in the world and gaining considerable respect from them in a straight up 1v1 situation. Meanwhile where do we have Doffy? Over in the corner here, getting thrashed around like a ragdoll by start of NW Luffy. Ho-hum.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 1, 2015)

I think some people think G4 Luffy smacking DD around is not a negative feat for DD in terms of his comparison to top tiers. 

Someone who gets smacked around by Luffy is not, and i repeat not doing anything to Mihawk besides get cut down from the other side of whatever island they are fighting on.

Marco, Jozu, and vista were not smacked around by Upper Top tiers(Admirals/Mihawk), DD *WAS* smacked around by Luffy.....Thats the end of discussion people.


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## Bernkastel (Jun 1, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> If Mihawk wasn't remotely serious what is the point of that scene to you? Anyone with functioning eyes can tell the point was to tell us *Vista is strong*. Now tell me: if the thing in the scene that tells us Vista is strong is just one big fakeout, _what is the point of the scene_? Is it a scene Oda threw in there quite literally for shits and giggles? Or to deceive the readers about how strong the 5th Commander of the WB pirates are? Now why on earth would he want to do that?



Plot to save Luffy...same reason DD/Mihawk didn't fodderise Croc or taking a brilliant punk with no notable inuries. MF was full of PIS.
Vista was there to get introduced as WB commander like most commanders and help Luffy escape Mihawk.



> I agree Vista would give only give Mihawk mid diff at best. But that's actually better than what Doflamingo was accomplishing against Gear 4th. And I ask again do you really believe Gear 4th >= Mihawk?.



The reason Luffy didn't instantly activate G4 vs DD is because he wouldn't be able to finish him off without weakening him first.
So the fight was overall very high diff fight and Luffy started dominating only after G4 and DD was previously  weakened.

Luffy would need very high diff/extreme to beat DD overall in a 1v1.

Vista would get the same treatment.

Obviously G4th is < Mihawk.


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## Ryuksgelus (Jun 1, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> Plot to save Luffy...same reason DD/Mihawk didn't fodderise Croc or taking a brilliant punk with no notable inuries. MF was full of PIS.
> Vista was there to get introduced as WB commander like most commanders and help Luffy escape Mihawk.



So where is the information that you have that tells us Vista confrontation with Mihawk is like Croc's aganst Jozu? This idea that a characters* only portrayal* is someone flawed makes no goddamn sense.

It's quite frankly stupid. You cannot just say something that happened is wrong or misleading when nothing, absolutely nothing, suggests it is. 

This is not fucking hard. Blueno had good portrayal. Then his fight with Luffy and Jyabura's fight with Sanji showed us those scenes were misleading. Vista has no such scenes so how can you claim he is probably like Blueno and Crocodile?


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## Coruscation (Jun 1, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> Plot to save Luffy...same reason DD/Mihawk didn't fodderise Croc or taking a brilliant punk with no notable inuries. MF was full of PIS.
> Vista was there to get introduced as WB commander like most commanders and help Luffy escape Mihawk.



Bullshit. There is no reason for Oda to *deceive us about Vista*. He is not an important character. There is no conceivable reason to portray him with red herrings. He is as strong as he was portrayed to be. Vista is clearly portrayed as one of the core pillars holding up the WB pirates by being a swordsman able to go head to head with Mihawk. You can't throw that out the window and call it PIS with absolutely zero evidence for it. That's nothing but bias.



> The reason Luffy didn't instantly activate G4 vs DD is because he wouldn't be able to finish him off without weakening him first.
> So the fight was overall very high diff fight and Luffy started dominating only after G4 and DD was previously  weakened.
> 
> Luffy would need very high diff/extreme to beat DD overall in a 1v1.
> ...



Even if he couldn't finish him he was still kicking his ass all over the place with G4. Doflamingo was practically helpless. He used his best and biggest and literally couldn't even land a scratch on Luffy. Vista was doing better than that against Mihawk. You think Mihawk > Gear 4th? Then you are in absolutely no position to call it delusional to believe Vista > Doffy. There is nothing delusional about that. It makes perfect sense based on each of their performances against a Yonkou class individual and G4 Luffy respectively. Doffy > Vista is what has now become much harder to justify now that we've seen Doffy's limits. He basically can't do shit against G4 whilst Vista could demonstrably do shit, even if only a little, against Mihawk.


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## Tregis (Jun 1, 2015)

I'm going have to go with Coruscation here. 

Unfortunately, until we have something to base G4 power level wise other than Doflamingo, we won't be able to determine just how strong Doflamingo is due to his poor showing against Luffy's G4.

I don't think it's absurd to _think_ that G4 grants Luffy an insane power boost that temporarily pushes him past a person of Doflamingo's standing quite dominantly. However, until we see just how big of a jump it is with more feats, I'll have to assume that Vista is stronger based on his portrayal and feats.




But to get back on topic, It all falls down to whether or not Law can manage to cut Marco. His DF should counter Marco's regeneration, but unless he can manage to cut marco, I do not see Luffy/Law winning.

Logic should dictate that Marco should have stronger Haki than Law, so I'm not very convinced that Law could cut him, which allows him to have his regeneration this fight. 

If G4 weren't infinite I'd just say that Marco outlasts G4 luffy and destroys him afterwords, but with it being infinite, and Luffy's lesser CoA haki, Marco should be able to damage luffy through his G4 mode despite him being able to retain his elasticity.

With law there, it's as I said - If Law can't cut, or directly damage Marco, then he's a non-issue this fight. Gamma knife and his other non manipulating attacks can be regenerated, making him almost useless outside of prolonging the fight for luffy who lacks the defense to protect against Marco, and lacks the offensive power to put Marco down due to his Regeneration.

I say Marco wins mid/high difficulty due to the fact that he shouldn't be faster than G4 luffy, and it should take some time/effort to put down both Law/Luffy when they're working in tandem, but he should come out of this quite fine.


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## Amol (Jun 1, 2015)

Corus , G4 did thrashed DD like a ragdoll but it was weakened DD(and it took huge PIS to weakened him._ It was Red Hawk+ Injection Shot + Counter Shock + G4 which thrashed DD around Dressrosa_).
We don't know how Vista would have faired against G4 if he was in same condition like DD.
No one is saying G4 > Mihawk but conditions were different.
Luffy and Law were going bloody murder after DD while Mihawk was clearly wasn't interested in battle (He himself asked to stop it).
Situations aren't pure black and white you are trying to portray them(making it contest between G4 and Mihawk).
I am not really advocating for any side but it is very reasonable to think that DD is stronger than Vista.
Edit : How do you think Mihawk vs DD will go? You think DD won't be able to accomplish what Vista did ?


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## Jossaff (Jun 1, 2015)

Mihawk was playing in Marineford , is pretty stupid to believe he went serious against the mustache guy ; by the logic of the nigglets above me , Crocodile is a top tier for clashing against Mihawk , Doflamingo and Akainu or tanking Jozu

Vista is a High High tier at best not a top tier .


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## Tregis (Jun 1, 2015)

Jossaff said:


> Mihawk was playing in Marineford , is pretty stupid to believe he went serious against the mustache guy ; by the logic of the nigglets above me , Crocodile is a top tier for clashing against Mihawk , Doflamingo and Akainu or tanking Jozu
> 
> Vista is a High High tier at best not a top tier .



He may not have gone all out, but to think he wasn't being serious is quite odd. From what it seemed, he respected Vista, I do think they had a serious sparring match for a short while as that scene was to portray Vista's strength and position among the Whitebeard pirates.

And on the Crocodile note, it's quite clear that Crocodile never had a direct fight with any of the above characters besides Jozu. He blocked Mihawk as he was testing Luffy, who most would believe, was NOT serious against Luffy. He threw an attack at Doflamingo, while Doflamingo was unharmed and didn't engage after that, and he blindsided Akainu while doing zero damage and didn't engage him after that either.

It's quite clear that Crocodile was not in their league, unlike vista who we know IS in their league.


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## Jossaff (Jun 1, 2015)

Tregis said:


> He may not have gone all out, but to think he wasn't being serious is quite odd. From what it seemed, he respected Vista, I do think they had a serious sparring match for a short while as that scene was to portray Vista's strength and position among the Whitebeard pirates.
> 
> And on the Crocodile note, it's quite clear that Crocodile never had a direct fight with any of the above characters besides Jozu. He blocked Mihawk as he was testing Luffy, who most would believe, was NOT serious against Luffy. He threw an attack at Doflamingo, while Doflamingo was unharmed and didn't engage after that, and he blindsided Akainu while doing zero damage and didn't engage him after that either.
> 
> It's quite clear that Crocodile was not in their league, unlike vista who we know IS in their league.



Crocodile may have sparred against Mihawk off-paneled . 

Portrayal? , Only feat Vista has is fighting a non serious Mihawk , you truly believe that someone in "Mihawks" league would fail to injure Akainu as Vista did ? .


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## Tregis (Jun 1, 2015)

Jossaff said:


> Crocodile may have sparred against Mihawk off-paneled .
> 
> Portrayal? , Only feat Vista has is fighting a non serious Mihawk , you truly believe that someone in "Mihawks" league would fail to injure Akainu as Vista did ? .



I never said he was as strong as Mihawk, just in the same league. He's at least a low top tier which wouldn't mean he's out of Mihawk's/Akainu's league. Is he as strong as either of them, NO. But it means he could give them a fight without getting shit on.

It also makes zero sense for Mihawk not to be serious, given the portrayal of the scene, and his given respect of Vista.


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## Coruscation (Jun 1, 2015)

Amol said:


> Corus , G4 did thrashed DD like a ragdoll but it was weakened DD(and it took huge PIS to weakened him._ It was Red Hawk+ Injection Shot + Counter Shock + G4 which thrashed DD around Dressrosa_).
> We don't know how Vista would have faired against G4 if he was in same condition like DD.
> No one is saying G4 > Mihawk but conditions were different.
> Luffy and Law were going bloody murder after DD while Mihawk was clearly wasn't interested in battle (He himself asked to stop it).
> ...



There is no indication that Doflamingo was physically weakened and slowed down. On the contrary, he seemed remarkably well adjusted and was speeding about the place just fine. By all indications the only thing that was really hurt was his endurance. Luffy himself was also fighting under a significant amount of duress as Oda, and Doflamingo, went out of their way to point out.

I'm not portraying them as black and white. I'm *responding* to the idea that it's *delusional* to think Vista > Doflamingo. That is an absurd statement when Vista had a better showing against a stronger enemy. I haven't even necessarily strongly advocated Vista > Doflamingo. I'm saying that this is absolutely no time to be spouting off things like calling people delusional if they believe Vista > DD when DD just got his world absolutely rocked by something that is very _very_ likely inferior to Mihawk. You'll notice I haven't called anyone delusional for believing the opposite. It's a hard argument at this point, definitely, but it's possible.

The situations are different but the entire point of citing how Mihawk personally praised Vista, Vista's confidence, Marco's confidence in his crewmate (have you ever seen Zoro confidently suggest Sanji to take care of someone that he would get absolutely molested by? The confidence of very long-time crewmates in one another is not as meaningless as people around here love to pretend when it comes to the Whitebeards) and the fact that their fight ended when Mihawk asked to call it off -- is that Vista _wouldn't_ be getting absolutely hammered even in a serious fight. We all know Mihawk held back. But so did Vista. It was a fairly light spar but the entire point is that both could ramp it up; that Mihawk couldn't just get serious and wreck Vista. That is quite literally the whole point. If Vista would get annihilated in a real fight all this stuff means nothing, it's just fluff, meaningless, misleading. There's no reason to believe Oda put in all this praise for the top swordsman of the top crew just for it to be misleading. That is an idea invented by anti-Whitebeard types on this forum.

And obviously, serious Mihawk should be > serious G4.

Which is why it's quite a hard argument that Doflamingo is superior to Vista. How can he do _better_ than Vista against Mihawk and yet get so devastated by Gear 4th? Just how does that add up? It makes no sense at all taken at face value. Vista got more respect from a stronger enemy.

I don't think they're particularly far apart; I've held the opinion for years that Doflamingo and Vista could pretty much go either way or perhaps go to Vista with high difficulty. To this moment I stand by that belief and find it quite nicely supported in the manga. But there is a key difference, the key difference that I and others have kept pointing to over the years: Vista got a straight up extended 1v1 against a Yonkou class individual. No bullshit, no one-off ambiguous scuffle or merely the threat of a fight, no beating around the bush. Just straight up 1v1ing an absolutely top class individual and gaining remarkable statements of respect from him. Think about how Mihawk actually treated him. If Mihawk went up against Fujitora and the same thing happened - Mihawk saying "I would be a fool not to know you", Fuji seeming completely calm and confident, their fight seeming even and being called off voluntarily by Mihawk - people would go apeshit over it and praise Fuji. But here people do everything in their might to downplay the scenario. Why? Cause it's Vista/WB pirates.

Oda has consistently, persistently avoided having Doflamingo do this. He's put him in multiple situations to show he's not complete trash, but he's never allowed him to do what Jozu and Vista did. And now we see him getting thrashed around by start of NW Luffy. There's a silver lining here is what I'm saying. People love to ignore this and pretend as if the feats of directly 1v1ing a Yonkou level fighter in an extended fight is meaningless. It isn't. And we're about to start seeing why.


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## RF (Jun 1, 2015)

People still desperately trying to twist the Vista/Mihawk clash around instead of accepting very straigthforward portrayal.

Never change OL.


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## Jossaff (Jun 1, 2015)

Tregis said:


> I never said he was as strong as Mihawk, just in the same league. He's at least a low top tier which wouldn't mean he's out of Mihawk's/Akainu's league. Is he as strong as either of them, NO. But it means he could give them a fight without getting shit on.
> 
> It also makes zero sense for Mihawk not to be serious, given the portrayal of the scene, and his given respect of Vista.



Let me show the difference between someone who is in their league .

Jozu had a free shot against Aokiji , made him bleed and sparred with a serious aokiji for a time.

While Vista only failed to do any damage against Akainu ,only Marco was able to stop him for a while.

Marco and Jozu are low top tiers , since they were able to damage and hold a serious top tier but still ultimately loosing , Vista only "played " with Mihawk , when Mihawk  was stopped by Crocodile , he cease his chase against Luffy  , you truly believe that if Mihawk took the war seriously would have been stopped Crocodile, of course not , the only shichibukai that were really trying in Marineford were Hancock to protect Luffy and Moria probably .


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## StrawHat4Life (Jun 1, 2015)

If Mihawk was really serious then Vista wouldn't have walked out of that battlefield under his own power. Not saying he was fucking around either but c'mon now.


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## Tregis (Jun 1, 2015)

StrawHat4Life said:


> If Mihawk was really serious then Vista wouldn't have walked out of that battlefield under his own power. Not saying he was fucking around either but c'mon now.



It's clear he wasn't going all out, but to think he wasn't even taking vista seriously is an odd statement. I view it as him being serious, not so much that he had killing intent on Vista, it being more of a sporty spar between two world class swordsmen.

It's obvious that if Mihawk went all out he'd handily beat Vista, but that doesn't mean he wasn't being serious while sparring with Vista. I don't see Mihawk shitting on vista THAT badly.

He can be serious sparring with vista while not going all out on him.


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## Ruse (Jun 1, 2015)

Meth said:


> People still desperately trying to twist the Vista/Mihawk clash around instead of accepting very straigthforward portrayal.
> 
> Never change OL.



So much of this


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## Amol (Jun 1, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> There is no indication that Doflamingo was physically weakened and slowed down. On the contrary, he seemed remarkably well adjusted and was speeding about the place just fine. By all indications the only thing that was really hurt was his endurance. Luffy himself was also fighting under a significant amount of duress as Oda, and Doflamingo, went out of their way to point out.
> 
> I'm not portraying them as black and white. I'm *responding* to the idea that it's *delusional* to think Vista > Doflamingo. That is an absurd statement when Vista had a better showing against a stronger enemy. I haven't even necessarily strongly advocated Vista > Doflamingo. I'm saying that this is absolutely no time to be spouting off things like calling people delusional if they believe Vista > DD when DD just got his world absolutely rocked by something that is very _very_ likely inferior to Mihawk. You'll notice I haven't called anyone delusional for believing the opposite. It's a hard argument at this point, definitely, but it's possible.
> 
> ...



I do agree with you that this board tend to downplay WB commanders .
Though you will agree that everything that Vista got came from drawing conclusions from story and not from actual on panel feats .
Anyway all I was trying to point out that it not just G4 that thrashed DD around.
It was combination of Red Hawk + Infection Shot + Gamma Knife + Counter Shock +G4 that thrashed DD around .
Luffy and Law are two strongest SN out there and both of them went all out on DD and still failed to kill him .
People are comparing Luffy+ Law going all out to non serious Mihawk not just G4.
Anyway as I said Vista could be stronger than DD but it is very reasonable to think other way around.
In any case difference shouldn't be much in those two .


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## Jossaff (Jun 1, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> There is no indication that Doflamingo was physically weakened and slowed down. On the contrary, he seemed remarkably well adjusted and was speeding about the place just fine. By all indications the only thing that was really hurt was his endurance. Luffy himself was also fighting under a significant amount of duress as Oda, and Doflamingo, went out of their way to point out.



Actually there were many indications that Doflamingo was physically weakened , before the Gamma knife Luffy using G2 and G3 was unable to land a single hit on Doflamingo by his own , he was constantly being blitzed and throwd away by Doflamingo ; after G2 Luffy was able to contest with him and even land a few hits and  in 1 ocassion blitzed Doflamingo , even Luffy remarked how badly injured DD was after Law's attacks , Law even though he was going to die after that .



Coruscation said:


> The situations are different but the entire point of citing how Mihawk personally praised Vista, Vista's confidence, Marco's confidence in his crewmate (have you ever seen Zoro confidently suggest Sanji to take care of someone that he would get absolutely molested by? The confidence of very long-time crewmates in one another is not as meaningless as people around here love to pretend when it comes to the Whitebeards) and the fact that their fight ended when Mihawk asked to call it off -- is that Vista _wouldn't_ be getting absolutely hammered even in a serious fight. We all know Mihawk held back. But so did Vista. It was a fairly light spar but the entire point is that both could ramp it up; that Mihawk couldn't just get serious and wreck Vista. That is quite literally the whole point. If Vista would get annihilated in a real fight all this stuff means nothing, it's just fluff, meaningless, misleading. There's no reason to believe Oda put in all this praise for the top swordsman of the top crew just for it to be misleading. That is an idea invented by anti-Whitebeard types on this forum.



We also saw Doflamingo praising Sanji strengh for a few moments later low diff him ,  and yes have also seen Zoro relieved once Sanji appeared to take care of Jabura ,  im not saying Mihawk would have been able to no diff Vista , but he's clearly not as strong as the other 2 top commanders in Whitebeard crew 



Coruscation said:


> And obviously, serious Mihawk should be > serious G4.
> 
> Which is why it's quite a hard argument that Doflamingo is superior to Vista. How can he do _better_ than Vista against Mihawk and yet get so devastated by Gear 4th? Just how does that add up? It makes no sense at all taken at face value. Vista got more respect from a stronger enemy.



Thats obvious  , which is why we all know Mihawk>Doflamingo

But as i said before we had very clear signs of how badly injured Doflamingo was , but even like that he was able to hold G4 for 20 minutes recieving only 4 hits , cant see how that is being devastaded.
Cant see a healthy DD  having many troubles against G4 Luffy , Oda clearly portrayed that Luffy needs use his ultimate form against an extremely injured DD to have a chance , and even so we all saw who's the one that needs to be carried to escape.
I can also say recall Aokiji respecting Doflamingo strenght by telling Smoker to movilize the admirals .

still this is my opinion , in my point of view i've always seen Marco>Doflamingo>Jozu>Vista


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## Coruscation (Jun 1, 2015)

Amol said:


> I do agree with you that this board tend to downplay WB commanders .
> Though you will agree that everything that Vista got came from drawing conclusions from story and not from actual on panel feats .
> Anyway all I was trying to point out that it not just G4 that thrashed DD around.
> It was combination of Red Hawk + Infection Shot + Gamma Knife + Counter Shock +G4 that thrashed DD around .
> ...



I don't consider feats vs. portrayal an issue. They're both useful and both fallible. What matters is correct interpretations.

It was G4 that thrashed Doflamingo around. Whatever he had taken before did at best slow him down and weaken him to enable the thrashing. But there's absolutely no confirmation of how it did so and if so how much, and how that relates to how Luffy himself was slowed down by his injuries that were pointed out by Oda through Doflamingo himself. What we saw is that DD was bouncing around just fine, smiling, looking solid, after performing his emergency treatment. He was no doubt hurting, but so was Luffy. There was no indication that either of them were slowed down or physically weaker.

Luffy + Law isn't the appropriate comparison at all. They fought him separately. First a wounded Law against a healthy Mingo. Then a wounded Luffy against a Mingo who was wounded by Law with Luffy's help.



			
				Jossaff said:
			
		

> Actually there were many indications that Doflamingo was physically weakened , before the Gamma knife Luffy using G2 and G3 was unable to land a single hit on Doflamingo by his own , he was constantly being blitzed and throwd away by Doflamingo ; after G2 Luffy was able to contest with him and even land a few hits and in 1 ocassion blitzed Doflamingo



These aren't indications that Doflamingo was physically weakened. We never once saw him do something pre-Gamma Knife that he tried to do post-Gamma Knife but failed to. On the contrary: 

- post-Gamma Knife he took an Eagle Bazooka straight to his chest and didn't even cough up blood. Previously he took a Red Hawk and got knocked on his ass, coughed up a lot of blood and had a very pained expression on his face.

- he sent Luffy flying with Athlete Thread even harder than he sent him flying with his kicks before Gamma Knife, despite Luffy getting up a solid block.

- he managed to dodge Gear 2nd attacks both pre and post Gamma Knife. Once before it, once after it. No notable difference.

- he blocked Luffy's first Haki attack comfortably with his arm. Only when Luffy winded up and delivered an even stronger hit did Doflamingo stumble. We never saw him try to block such an attack pre-Gamma Knife and fail.

Where are the differences? Just because Luffy did better doesn't mean it was because Doflamingo was weakened. Luffy himself was weakened too. There was even a moment where Luffy was weakened but Doflamingo hadn't taken Gamma Knife yet, so the advantage was clearly in Doflamingo's favor in terms of wear and tear - and this is when he dodged the G2 Hawk Gatling, although he then failed to hit Luffy with his countering Break White.

A fight is dynamic. It's not a computer program determining outcomes through numbers. Luffy was doing a little better after Gamma Knife, but there is nothing saying this is due to GK weakening Doflamingo. Rather we can plainly see that Luffy is putting in more effort and fighting better, harder, and simply that different things are happening in the fight. Because it's dynamic. 

Doffy first landed a hit on Luffy with the help of his clone sneaking up from behind while he blocked Jet Gatling. The second time because Luffy got hit by the plotgun and stared while Doflamingo and Trebol ganged up on Law. The third time because his hands were locked and Bellamy and the Black Knight came at him simultaneously. Those are the only times Doflamingo managed to inflict any damage on Luffy pre-Gamma Knife. 

Post Gamma Knife we saw him land his first hit by dodging a G2 move at close range, then overpowering Luffy's block with Athlete Thread. That's definitely more impressive than anything he did pre-Gamma Knife. The second time he tanked an Eagle Bazooka straight to his chest and immediately countered with Over Heat, then moved in blindingly fast to kick Luffy in the back. That is also, arguably, more impressive than the hits he landed pre-Gamma Knife. The third time he caught Luffy with a kick while he was slowed down from G3. Which is, meh. But overall, as you can see, Doflamingo was really doing just as well before and after Gamma Knife. Partially this is no doubt because Luffy was also injured. It wasn't only Doflamingo. But Luffy was also more serious and fighting harder since he got pissed to high hell by what Doflamingo did to Bellamy.



> We also saw Doflamingo praising Sanji strengh for a few moments later low diff him , and yes have also seen Zoro relieved once Sanji appeared to take care of Jabura



He said "you're not half bad" with an arrogant smile on his face while easily blocking a big move. We didn't see anyone from the Straw Hats express complete confidence in Sanji's ability to take on Doflamingo. The situations aren't comparable. Sanji got praised, but also instantly low-diffed. Doflamingo didn't ask him politely to call the fight off, he simply ended it the moment he wanted. The exact thing we know Mihawk couldn't do. It's the totality of Vista's portrayal that tells us each individual part is significant.



> but even like that he was able to hold G4 for 20 minutes recieving only 4 hits , cant see how that is being devastaded.



That didn't happen. 20 minutes was referring to Bird Cage, the proper translations and later chapters coming out have made that clear.



> I can also say recall Aokiji respecting Doflamingo strenght by telling Smoker to movilize the admirals.



Doflamingo clearly can't be beaten by Vice Admirals. So you'll have to send an Admiral. Doesn't mean that doing so isn't overkill. But you'll also have to consider that Doflamingo has an entire crew backing him up, and that the Marines also had Luffy and Law to worry about. The fact that Akainu sends _one Admiral_ against the whole Donquixote pirates, the whole Straw Hat pirates and Trafalgar Law shows you how highly the Marines rate an Admiral compared to Doflamingo. Very.


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## StrawHat4Life (Jun 1, 2015)

Ce





Tregis said:


> It's clear he wasn't going all out, but to think he wasn't even taking vista seriously is an odd statement. I view it as him being serious, not so much that he had killing intent on Vista, it being more of a sporty spar between two world class swordsmen.
> 
> It's obvious that if Mihawk went all out he'd handily beat Vista, but that doesn't mean he wasn't being serious while sparring with Vista. I don't see Mihawk shitting on vista THAT badly.
> 
> He can be serious sparring with vista while not going all out on him.



Mihawk clearly respected Vista. To me though someone is serious when their intent is to actually, you know, win. Mihawk was just content to exchange slashes and nothing more. Nor did he attempt to stop an unscathed Vista from withdrawing. Those aren't the actions of someone taking a fight seriously.


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## X18999 (Jun 1, 2015)

Here we go again with this Vista wanking...   

If he and the rest of the commanders minus Jozu couldn't stop Akainu long enough for Jinbei to get away (regardless of how much fodder were backing them up) then the dude isn't top anything.

Honestly I believe that, considering how powerful Luffy is now, that the WB were ranked by power (just not officially) meaning Vista was the fifth strongest commander.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 1, 2015)

StrawHat4Life said:


> If Mihawk was really serious then Vista wouldn't have walked out of that battlefield under his own power. Not saying he was fucking around either but c'mon now.



Well no one thinks vista>=Mihawk, so that goes without saying.

What we do know is that Mihawk did not wish to put forth the effort to take out Vista, seeing as he was the one who asked to end the fight.

Which says all you need to know about Vistas strength. If mihawk could of just sent him flying G4 style across marineford passed his guard he would of done so.


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## Lawliet (Jun 1, 2015)

@ Coru



> This section's obsession with deciding to believe absurd things just because they don't like the idea of certain characters being stronger than others is laughable.



Ehm. That's you buddy. That is you.

Luffy > Vista.

And I believe this 100%. Come at me all at once and let's see what you got. cuz I'm 100% sure Law and Luffy would take down Vista without going through the same shit they had to go through with Doffy.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 1, 2015)

Vista would cut Luffy in half.


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## Lawliet (Jun 1, 2015)

Lmao. Okay. I just hope you're ready for disappointment when they are reintroduced.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 1, 2015)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Lmao. Okay. I just hope you're ready for disappointment when they are reintroduced.



I'm ready for disappointment.

As I'm sure oda will off panel most of it.


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## Kobe (Jun 1, 2015)

We need some of these opinions on reshaping the tier list:



Kobe said:


> Dear residents of OL, we need some help with reshaping the tier list in OP Battledome. Come cast your votes so that we can have a quality tier list to be used in awesome tournaments ahead.
> 
> Link:
> 
> +Reps to all voters.


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## Jossaff (Jun 1, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> I
> 
> It was G4 that thrashed Doflamingo around. Whatever he had taken before did at best slow him down and weaken him to enable the thrashing. But there's absolutely no confirmation of how it did so and if so how much, and how that relates to how Luffy himself was slowed down by his injuries that were pointed out by Oda through Doflamingo himself. What we saw is that DD was bouncing around just fine, smiling, looking solid, after performing his emergency treatment. He was no doubt hurting, but so was Luffy. There was no indication that either of them were slowed down or physically weaker.



At best slowed him down ? Law though he was about to die , you should re-read the Doflamingo vs Luffy chapters , Doflamingo kept dissapearing in front of Luffy and attacking him from behind before he could even react , that's the best way to resume how the fight always went before the Gamma knife .  even on their physsical clashes Doflamingo was always the one who kept sending Luffy away , only after Gamma knife Luffy could compete with him in speed and strenght , actually lading a few blows , thing which was imposibble for him before . 

The fact of him smiling is the nature of the character, we also saw him smiling after recieving all G4 arsenal , does it means he wasnt hurt ? . and you cant really compare the wound Luffy recieved from Bellamy to the ones Doflamingo recieved.



Coruscation said:


> I
> 
> These aren't indications that Doflamingo was physically weakened. We never once saw him do something pre-Gamma Knife that he tried to do post-Gamma Knife but failed to. On the contrary:
> 
> ...




They are pretty notable examples of he being weakened.

-First of all he dodged the eagle bazzoka ,and you cant compare a Red hawk with the previous one.

-Thats the whole point of Luffy using G4 isnt it ? , he knew he could win without it , even after Doflamingo being extremely injured , he still kept the upper hand.

-Point 3 , before the Gamma knife Luffy was repeating the sanji treatment all over again , only after law attack , he managed to compete but still ultimately failing

-Of couse we never saw him block an attack with his arms , cuz he was just too fast for Luffy to get on attack range , on previous scenes we saw Luffy trying to get close enough for Doflamingo just disappear in front of him and attack him from behind .

Again you cant possibily compare Luffy wound with Doflamingo ones , Bellamy is what at best a mid tier ? that Sanji diable jambe is probably stronger to all Bellamy displayed.

You claim that Luffy was only being serious only after Gamma knife , so all his statements about "kicking Mingo ass " were idle ? , is like saying Luffy was only fighting seriously against Crocodile on the last minutes of their fight.



Coruscation said:


> I
> 
> 
> He said "you're not half bad" with an arrogant smile on his face while easily blocking a big move. We didn't see anyone from the Straw Hats express complete confidence in Sanji's ability to take on Doflamingo. The situations aren't comparable. Sanji got praised, but also instantly low-diffed. Doflamingo didn't ask him politely to call the fight off, he simply ended it the moment he wanted. The exact thing we know Mihawk couldn't do. It's the totality of Vista's portrayal that tells us each individual part is significant.
> ...



Thas just the nature of the character , on everysingle fight he had , even with Aokiji , he was laughing his ass off . Mihawk also recognized Daz bones does this means they're equals?  of course not 

Really ? , then what Nami , Chopper and the others did once they saw Sanji , weren't they relieved?  Of course they are different scenarios Doflamingo was completely serious since the SH and Law were trying to fuck up his kingdom , he was going for the kill no matter what ,so he praised him but still kicked his ass . 

You think if Mihawk were in similar situation and a huge motivation such as Doflamingo , would politely ask Vista to stop ? . No , he would have defeated Vista , im not saying he would have done it with the same diff as DD took Sanji but still .

The translations showed that it passed 20 minutes since Luffy activated G4 , if you're still not sure go listen the One piece podcasts.

Aokiji only talked about Doflamingo when told Smoker to movilise the admirals , or did he say the SH and Law are moving to Dressrosa , Doflamingo is also there so you should movilize the Admirals? , Again Nop , and still Fujitora never showed by himself , he had plenty vice admiral with him , not saying that DD could take an admiral but he is more than capable of giving a Difficult fight to one .


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## Ryuksgelus (Jun 2, 2015)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Lmao. Okay. I just hope you're ready for disappointment when they are reintroduced.



Are you trolling or mentally ill?

I mean there can be no way you are this cringe worthy stupid.

I kinda want to refuse to believe this because there is just no way someone can read a story and skew it this fucking badly and call out a rational poster like you are doing.

I seriously think most people who doubt Vista only do so because he is a minor character and actually know better.

I mean *it is not a debate. *Vita i*s factually stronger than Luffy and Doflamingo. *This is 100% black&white here. Any one saying otherwise is either lying or trolling. 

A creationist has a better argument than someone who  seriously typed what you have been posting.

Better arguments can be made for bringing back slavery or getting rid of suffrage. That is how asinine you sound.


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## Coruscation (Jun 2, 2015)

Jossaff said:
			
		

> Law though he was about to die



He wasn't, he repaired most of the damage and from then on was up and about smiling and darting around and sending Luffy flying still. There's no indication he was slowed down or weakened in terms of physicality or reaction speed.



> Doflamingo kept dissapearing in front of Luffy and attacking him from behind before he could even react , that's the best way to resume how the fight always went before the Gamma knife



No it's not, you're either lying or exaggerating. Go re-read.



> The fact of him smiling is the nature of the character



He wasn't smiling when G4 blew his ass across the country. He was smiling after fixing himself up after Gamma Knife. He then kept winning over Luffy.



> you cant really compare the wound Luffy recieved from Bellamy to the ones Doflamingo recieved.



I didn't compare them. DOFLAMINGO HIMSELF did.



> They are pretty notable examples of he being weakened.
> 
> -First of all he dodged the eagle bazzoka ,and you cant compare a Red hawk with the previous one.
> 
> ...



No they bloody well aren't. I just explained how.

No he didn't. He dodged _one._ The second one got him dead on. But he took zero damage. This doesn't remotely support the idea that he was physically weakened, it's his BEST tanking feat out of the entire fight and it happened post Gamma Knife.

G4 has absolutely nothing to do with it. Read again, make a proper response.

No he freaking wasn't. Read the actual scenes and you'll see that's not the case at all. I literally described the only times Doflamingo ever landed a hit on Luffy pre-Gamma Knife and how he did it. They are not more impressive than what he did post-Gamma Knife. A fight is dynamic. It goes through phases. It isn't a series of mathematical equations always dictating the same exact outcome must happen at all times. Luffy did better post Gamma Knife because he fought better. That's all there is to it. Every time we saw DOFLAMINGO do something he did it just as impressively as pre-Gamma Knife. It was Luffy who shaped up his game and didn't behave like a careless idiot anymore. But even then was still losing.

*This never happened.* You are lying or misremembering, please go re-read the fights, it's incredibly silly for me to type up arguments in response to you stating things that never happened from your faulty memory.



> You claim that Luffy was only being serious only after Gamma knife , so all his statements about "kicking Mingo ass " were idle ? , is like saying Luffy was only fighting seriously against Crocodile on the last minutes of their fight.



No, I claimed that Luffy got *even more* serious after Bellamy's defeat. Do you read One Piece? Have you perhaps noticed that Luffy tends to fight harder when he gets really, really, really pissed? Yeah, that's what happened there. Luffy got waaay more pissed at Doflamingo after the Bellamy incident than he was before.



> Mihawk also recognized Daz bones does this means they're equals? of course not



Stop using this absurd fallacy. Oda didn't intend for Vista to be another Daz Bones.



> ou think if Mihawk were in similar situation and a huge motivation such as Doflamingo , would politely ask Vista to stop ? . No , he would have defeated Vista , im not saying he would have done it with the same diff as DD took Sanji but still .



There is no "but still". Mihawk CAN NOT DO THAT to Vista. Every. Single. Thing. about how Oda portrayed Vista tells us this and reinforces it. Every single thing. Vista's confidence, Marco's confidence, Mihawk's initial respect and Mihawk respectfully asking to call the fight off. If this happened with a person the OL weren't dead set on downplaying maximally you'd never hear the end of it. But since it's Vista here come the excuses and downplaying in full force.



> Really ? , then what Nami , Chopper and the others did once they saw Sanji , weren't they relieved?



Nami and Chopper aren't Zoro or Luffy who know Sanji's strength and what he's capable of. And they didn't even think he could do a good job fighting Doflamingo. Of course they were relieved to be saved, what the hell else would they be?



> The translations showed that it passed 20 minutes since Luffy activated G4 , if you're still not sure go listen the One piece podcasts.



Viz's translation didn't say that and it doesn't add up very well when you look at how 27 minutes had passed since Bird Cage started moving 7 minutes after G4 ran out. G4 wasn't up for the entirety of Bird Cage moving. It was only up for 2 chapters whereas BC was moving for 3-4 chapters before that. So no.



> Aokiji only talked about Doflamingo when told Smoker to movilise the admirals , or did he say the SH and Law are moving to Dressrosa , Doflamingo is also there so you should movilize the Admirals? , Again Nop



Read. Read more carefully. Aokiji said to mobilize the Admirals because no VA can take Doflamingo. Common sense. It doesn't mean an Admiral isn't overkill. Aokiji was also saying they need to move largely because of the CONSEQUENCES of Doflamingo going down. You know, a war potentially breaking out with the Yonkou and all that? That's what they needed those Admirals for. *Akainu* sent Fujitora alone to possibly take on Doffy, Luffy, Law, Zoro, Sanji, Diamante, Trebol, Pica, Franky, Robin, Gladius, Lao G, Brooke etc.

*What does that tell you about how the Fleet Admiral sees Doflamingo by himself in relation to one of his Admirals?*

Oh. But he had "fodder-to-Bartolomeo" Maynard and Bastille. So that changes everything.


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## Lawliet (Jun 2, 2015)

Ryuksgelus said:


> Are you trolling or mentally ill?
> 
> I mean there can be no way you are this cringe worthy stupid.
> 
> ...



Factually stronger than Luffy and Doflamingo? Don't make me laugh. Doflamingo > both Vista and Jozu individually. The only WB pirates that are putting Doflamingo down are WB himself and Marco. Even Marco is a possibility and not a guarantee. Doffy vs Marco is a debate. Doffy vs Vista? omg, just stop already. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



inb4 10 lines of insults


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## Lawliet (Jun 2, 2015)

> He wasn't, he repaired most of the damage and from then on was up and about smiling and darting around and sending Luffy flying still. There's no indication he was slowed down or weakened in terms of physicality or reaction speed.




Doffy himself said it's not a healing/regeneration ability. He merely stopped the attack from doing more damage which is what it was going to do. Doffy told Luffy that it looks like he's close to his end and Luffy replied by saying you are too after taking Law's big hit. 

But hey, what do I know.


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## Amol (Jun 2, 2015)

Can we stop being bunch of arrogant assholes?
Really no one has proof hard enough to call their side factual correct or other side delusional.
It is perfectly possible for either to be stronger than other.
In any case there isn't much strength gap in DD and Vista .


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 2, 2015)

See Amol actually being resonable. GTFO Amol only ass holes in my OBD.


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## Coruscation (Jun 2, 2015)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Doffy himself said it's not a healing/regeneration ability. He merely stopped the attack from doing more damage which is what it was going to do. Doffy told Luffy that it looks like he's close to his end and Luffy replied by saying you are too after taking Law's big hit.
> 
> But hey, what do I know.



I never said he healed or regenerated. The argument is as to how the damage he took impacted his active performance. Did he move 10% slower? Did his attacks carry 10% less force? Did he respond 15% slower? There is no indication as to any of this. People in One Piece can take huge amounts of damage and still fight at their full capacity in terms of response time and physical movements. Especially endurance monsters which Doffy is one.

All we know for a fact, is that he was damaged. Having already taken damage means there's less damage he can take before he reaches his limit. But we also know the same is true for Luffy. Doffy could be slowed down or weakened in the terms above, but so could Luffy. There's no indication of either. Oda didn't do anything to highlight it. All he highlighted was that both Luffy and Doffy had already taken a substantial amount damage. That's it.

Not enough to read what someone actually said, apparently.


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## RF (Jun 2, 2015)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Factually stronger than Luffy and Doflamingo? Don't make me laugh. Doflamingo > both Vista and Jozu individually. The only WB pirates that are putting Doflamingo down are WB himself and Marco. Even Marco is a possibility and not a guarantee. Doffy vs Marco is a debate. Doffy vs Vista? omg, just stop already.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



You've absolutely convinced me with all the rock solid evidence you provided.




Seriously, you're an idiot.


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## Cosmicflash12 (Jun 2, 2015)

Luffy can honestly solo macro is not impressive so i think luffy mid diff


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## kidgogeta (Jun 2, 2015)

Marco is Luffys physical superior in every way atm. Add in Marcos fruit and Luffy doesn't have any hope of doing damage on his own. Hes just a meat shield for Laws set ups. If the duo DOES win this its only because of Law, who  did all the legwork vs Doflamingo as well.

Infinite G2 / G3 threads were fine. But saying infinite G4 is also basically saying infinite haki pool+ power up. That's a dumb thing to allow in the battledome.


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## Green Monkey (Jun 2, 2015)

Haven't read any of this thread because I'm an asshole.

I say Luffy + Law win high difficulty though. Working in tandem I'm fairly sure they  can find a way to incapaciate Marco with law's ability + Luffy fighting him. I honestly think G4 Luffy is strong enough that Marco has to pay 100% full attention to him if he doesn't want to get tossed around. Then again, I think Marco is a lot weaker than most of you.

High difficulty means going full out but not taking significant damage to me. Extreme difficulty being going all out while taking heavy damage.


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## Ryuksgelus (Jun 3, 2015)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Factually stronger than Luffy and Doflamingo? Don't make me laugh. Doflamingo > both Vista and Jozu individually. The only WB pirates that are putting Doflamingo down are WB himself and Marco. Even Marco is a possibility and not a guarantee. Doffy vs Marco is a debate. Doffy vs Vista? omg, just stop already.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Scans?

Dialog?

Stop making statements and provide proof. You have none. We all know this.

I'm insulting you because you are being stupid. 

There is not a shred of respect your argument deserves because it has zero basis other than your belief.  You can either be trolling or stupid. No in between because there is absolutely no way you are right.


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