# current Gohan vs DBZ Vegito



## snipernaadi (Feb 27, 2017)

1.BL
2.IC

Vegeto is affected by Super`s retconned fusion rule


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## Adamant soul (Feb 27, 2017)

Vegito stomps.


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## Kaaant (Feb 27, 2017)

I thought Super characters were hilariously above Z?


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## SSBMonado (Feb 27, 2017)

Kaaant said:


> I thought Super characters were hilariously above Z?


And Gohan will be once we get some more definitive feats from him. It's just a matter of time


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## Adamant soul (Feb 27, 2017)

Kaaant said:


> I thought Super characters were hilariously above Z?



Gohan hasn't done anything to warrant that scaling yet.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 27, 2017)

Gohan stomps if we don't nerf post-God ki SSJ Goku, who Gohan was on par with during their sparring session


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## Toaa (Feb 27, 2017)

Yeah gohan managed to trade blows with ssj goku.That at least give him ssg red form stats.


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## AgentAAA (Feb 27, 2017)

depends on how serious we treat that sparring match, really. Goku's been known to limit his power as early as frieza saga to test out the waters

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Drake3513 (Feb 27, 2017)

Vegito stomps.and scaling gohan from a sparring match with goku is kinda stupid.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Disagree 4


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 27, 2017)

Goku outright admits things got out of hand in the end

unless there are outright statements of holding back (Gohan specifically said not to do so BTW), I see no reason to not take it as legit

otherwise, it's all just subjective opinions

besides, it's not like Super's a stranger to random retarded power-ups

Reactions: Agree 5 | Disagree 2


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## Jag77 (Feb 27, 2017)

3rd Form Frost stomped Base Goku who is SSJG level. 

Piccolo then went on to keep up pace and pressure an Exhausted final form frost which should still be SSJG level 

SSJ Gohan can two shot opponents stronger than that Piccolo. 

Dragon Ball Super's powerscaling is by far as cringe as it can get in fiction but I gotta say Gohan stomps here.


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## Divell (Feb 27, 2017)

Vegito teaches Gohan how to punch.


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## Toaa (Feb 27, 2017)

Then gohan punches him and vegito dies


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## Divell (Feb 27, 2017)

He lacks speed and strength. Vegito was playing with a much more stronger Buuhan. Current Gohan is still below his Mystic version.


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## Blocky (Feb 27, 2017)

Would lavender be god-tier too and stomps on vegito as well?

Because anything is god-tier in super really.


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## trance (Feb 27, 2017)

Considering Gohan was trading blows with his dad with neither having an apparent edge and had his durability complimented by Champa, it seems Gohan takes this


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## God Movement (Feb 27, 2017)

Yeah, most evidence currently points to Gohan being in the God Tier range so Vegito is getting wrecked pretty bad.


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## Drake3513 (Feb 28, 2017)

Im pretty sure toriyama and toei forgot that base goku is ssjg level. it would explain why everybody can keep up with base goku.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 28, 2017)

or we're underrating end of Buu saga characters *shrugs*



Drake3513 said:


> Im pretty sure toriyama and toei forgot that base goku is ssjg level. it would explain why everybody can keep up with base goku.



Could be

Just an unsubstantiated opinion as of right now though


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## Divell (Feb 28, 2017)

I guess a Buu that hasn't fought in a couple of years is also a god tier. Let me explain something,

The Omni King.
The angels.
Beerus, Champa
SSB Goku and Vegeta.
SSG Goku.
Vegito.
Vegito's shit.
Buuhan who absorbed Mystic Gohan, you know, Gohan after awakening all of his power, meaning, that's the maximu he would ever get.
Mystic Gohan.
Buutenks.
Buucolo.
Evil Buu.
Buu.
Current Gohan said that he wasn't quite on Mystic Gohan's lv yet. So no. Current Gohan is nowhere near being a god tier.


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## Juub (Feb 28, 2017)

God Movement said:


> Yeah, most evidence currently points to Gohan being in the God Tier range so Vegito is getting wrecked pretty bad.


Isn't the only evidence his sparring match with Goku? The fact he couldn't straight up destroy Lavender with a single punch makes it hard to believe he is God-tier unless for some reason Basil is SSJ2-tier and Lavender is God-tier. I'd say there is more suggesting he isn't God-tier than there is that he is.

Reactions: Like 1


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## NightmareCinema (Feb 28, 2017)

Juub said:


> Isn't the only evidence his sparring match with Goku? The fact he couldn't straight up destroy Lavender with a single punch makes it hard to believe he is God-tier unless for some reason Basil is SSJ2-tier and Lavender is God-tier. I'd say there is more suggesting he isn't God-tier than there is that he is.


The fact that Gohan in base is equal to Piccolo.

The same Piccolo that fought Final Form Frost back in the U6 arc.

The spar with Goku is just a validation that Gohan's been getting back into shape.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Toaa (Feb 28, 2017)

Juub said:


> Isn't the only evidence his sparring match with Goku? The fact he couldn't straight up destroy Lavender with a single punch makes it hard to believe he is God-tier unless for some reason Basil is SSJ2-tier and Lavender is God-tier. I'd say there is more suggesting he isn't God-tier than there is that he is.


And bergamo is god tier while his siblings are ssj2 tier?Wouldnt he help them?


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## Juub (Feb 28, 2017)

God Movement said:


> This.


Refresh my memory. What puts Frost at God-tier?


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## NightmareCinema (Feb 28, 2017)

Juub said:


> Refresh my memory. What puts Frost at God-tier?


Overwhelming base Goku while in his Assault Form.


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## God Movement (Feb 28, 2017)

Juub said:


> Refresh my memory. What puts Frost at God-tier?





NightmareCinema said:


> Overwhelming base Goku while in his Assault Form.



This. If you recall this is the same Base Goku that was able to destroy the huge Sphere of Destruction, fight against a fired up Beerus and is on the same tier as Base Vegeta who can stomp SSJ3 Gotenks as if he was Yajirobe.


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## Juub (Feb 28, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Overwhelming base Goku while in his Assault Form.





God Movement said:


> This. If you recall this is the same Base Goku that was able to destroy the huge Sphere of Destruction, fight against a fired up Beerus and is on the same tier as Base Vegeta who can stomp SSJ3 Gotenks as if he was Yajirobe.


Thank you fellas. I recall I was studying for exams while watching the tournament saga so I likely glossed over that part.

At one point I was legit wondering if there might be two forms for Goku and Vegeta that are indiscernible in appearance. One using God-Ki and the other one not using God Ki.


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## Supersentaiguy (Feb 28, 2017)

Gohan is still not quite 100% the pl he had in buu saga. Vegito stomps.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Drake3513 (Feb 28, 2017)

I dont know why people keep saying dbs gives everyone retarded powerups. The only one who gotone is trunks and even that was said to be due to his rage.as for piccolo his special beam cannon is like krillins destructo disc as in its a durability ignoring attack.so piccolo does not scale to gohan unless gohan actually overpowers a special beam cannon.


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## NightmareCinema (Feb 28, 2017)

Drake3513 said:


> I dont know why people keep saying dbs gives everyone retarded powerups. The only one who gotone is trunks and even that was said to be due to his rage.as for piccolo his special beam cannon is like krillins destructo disc as in its a durability ignoring attack.so piccolo does not scale to gohan unless gohan actually overpowers a special beam cannon.


Because it does.

That's what happens when you have that fight between Goku and Beerus and the latter saying that Goku's still able to keep up because of him absorbing the SSJG transformation's power into himself, making it so that Goku didn't drastically lose power even after losing the transformation.

Seriously, rewatch the fight and pay attention to what's being said this time.

Does it make sense? No. Did the power creep happen anyway? Abso-fucking-lutely it did.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 28, 2017)

Drake3513 said:


> I dont know why people keep saying dbs gives everyone retarded powerups. The only one who gotone is trunks and even that was said to be due to his rage.as for piccolo his special beam cannon is like krillins destructo disc as in its a durability ignoring attack.so piccolo does not scale to gohan unless gohan actually overpowers a special beam cannon.



Wasn't just Makankosappo 

Piccolo kept pace with and physically overpowered Frost to the point the fucker resorted to poison *shrugs*

And Frost himself, even weakened, was something Vegeta needed to ascend to SSJ for.  While he pulled that punch of his, by virtue of being SSJ its going to be a punch stronger than anything he'd throw in base.  Frost not being reduced to gore by that punch is a durability feat itself.  Still of further note is that the punch broke the dome

The fun part comes in when you realize your follow up assertion that "Piccolo was holding back in the spar" has no basis within the narrative and functions as an assumptions not intrinsic to Piccolo's personality *shrugs*


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## Drake3513 (Feb 28, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Because it does.
> 
> That's what happens when you have that fight between Goku and Beerus and the latter saying that Goku's still able to keep up because of him absorbing the SSJG transformation's power into himself, making it so that Goku didn't drastically lose power even after losing the transformation.
> 
> ...


It makes sense that goku got a power boost he gained a new form.
But trunks's power boost doesn't make sense. That is what I am trying to say.
And I have watched the fight multiple times because I really like it.


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## xenos5 (Feb 28, 2017)

God Movement said:


> Yeah, most evidence currently points to Gohan being in the God Tier range so Vegito is getting wrecked pretty bad.



Most evidence is just two pieces of evidence, really. Gohan being said to have trained with Piccolo who battled Frost, and Gohan sparring with Goku. But as I said in the DB feats thread i'm a little iffy on those due to it likely being Toei forgetting about Goku being able to use god ki in base and ssj. For Lavender to be able to not be oneshotted by a low god tier character he'd have to be far above Basil (since Basil is only star level+ from his fight with buu) when there's no implication that, that's the case (the trio de dangers seem more all around the same general level).

i'd like to see more instances of Gohan and Piccolo doing stuff that would put them in god tier. I'm unsure about it at the moment.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 28, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Most evidence is just two pieces of evidence, really. Gohan being said to have trained with Piccolo who battled Frost, and Gohan sparring with Goku. But as I said in the DB feats thread i'm a little iffy on those due to it likely being Toei forgetting about Goku being able to use god ki in base and ssj. For Lavender to be able to not be oneshotted by a low god tier character he'd have to be far above Basil (since Basil is only star level+ from his fight with buu) when there's no implication that, that's the case (the trio de dangers seem more all around the same general level).
> 
> i'd like to see more instances of Gohan and Piccolo doing stuff that would put them in god tier. I'm unsure about it at the moment.



All this amounts to is opinion and emotional appeals *shrugs*

There's room for discussion about if Buu arc characters are being undersold due to retroactive feats, nothing more

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Toaa (Feb 28, 2017)

Also goku is clearly sparing with bergamo.And people are forgetting that in base goku can would hit who was treating vegeta as a ragdoll.Either base is god lv or buu saga characters are not as weak as star lv.


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## Divell (Feb 28, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Overwhelming base Goku while in his Assault Form.


Not enough. SSJ2 Goku was also being matched by SSJ2 Trunks, who was only at Buu Saga lvs. Base Goku is far from being close to his God version, who is still far from being a god tier.


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## The Mathemagician (Feb 28, 2017)

Lavender wasn't outright curbstomped by Gohan, and Lavender by no means is even Super Boo level. Vegetto stomps Gohan.


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## NightmareCinema (Feb 28, 2017)

Divell said:


> Not enough. SSJ2 Goku was also being matched by SSJ2 Trunks, who was only at Buu Saga lvs. Base Goku is far from being close to his God version, who is still far from being a god tier.


>Buu Saga levels
>When he's been fighting Goku Black for a year before deciding to go back to the past to get help
>Got a lot of Zenkai boosts to begin with

Yeah, no.


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## Fang (Feb 28, 2017)

Ah I see Divell making things up again with his weird head canon.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Blade (Feb 28, 2017)

Blade said:


> i believed that Gohan after his training with Piccolo was low God Tier levels back in the U6 Saga
> 
> as we saw a bit later, Piccolo, was legit low god tier levels in the U6 vs U7 tournament
> 
> ...




let's end this right here, right now

we accept low God tier Gohan, yes or no?

i just rewatched the Lavenda battle and more carefully this time, and i have to say that Gohan had many chances of easily oneshotting the shit out of him, Lavenda was way inferior in legit hth battle against him

his lolpoison only helped him to cause trouble to Gohan

so yeah, i am going back at my opinion of having Gohan as part of the low god tiers


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## Divell (Feb 28, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> >Buu Saga levels
> >When he's been fighting Goku Black for a year before deciding to go back to the past to get help
> >Got a lot of Zenkai boosts to begin with
> 
> Yeah, no.


>Fight Black for a year.
All he did was literally run away.


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## NightmareCinema (Feb 28, 2017)

Divell said:


> >Fight Black for a year.
> All he did was literally run away.


>Flashbacks show Future Trunks being healed up by Future Mai
>Because of his encounters with Black
>Prior to their latest clash before Trunks got to the time machine
>Running away

Still a huge negative.


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## Divell (Feb 28, 2017)

Blade said:


> let's end this right here, right now
> 
> we accept low God tier Gohan, yes or no?
> 
> ...


We don't. Gohan's maximum lv was going to be Mystic Gohan. That's as far as he would go. Even SSG Goku who is leagues above SSJ3 Gohan, SSJ2 Vegeta, Mystic Gohan, etc, is well below the actual God tiers of DB Super. This guys are Buu saga at most.


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## Divell (Feb 28, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> >Flashbacks show Future Trunks being healed up by Future Mai
> >Because of his encounters with Black
> >Prior to their latest clash before Trunks got to the time machine
> >Running away
> ...


Healing, not the same as having someone coming back from a near death experience that is what give them the Zenkai boost.


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## NightmareCinema (Feb 28, 2017)

Fang said:


> Ah I see Divell making things up again with his weird head canon.



Indeed he is. It's both amusing and annoying.



Blade said:


> let's end this right here, right now
> 
> we accept low God tier Gohan, yes or no?
> 
> ...



I accept it.

I'd put Gohan at around SSJ2 Trunks' level as of right now, to be honest.


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## trance (Feb 28, 2017)

Divell said:


> We don't. Gohan's maximum lv was going to be Mystic Gohan. That's as far as he would go. Even SSG Goku who is leagues above SSJ3 Gohan, SSJ2 Vegeta, Mystic Gohan, etc, is well below the actual God tiers of DB Super. This guys are Buu saga at most.


 
first off, Gohan's max is what Toriyama deems it to be and can change it at his leisure, especially since DB is going through some crazy inflations with Super

second, SSJG Goku is god level...that was the whole point of his fight with Beerus, to showcase what a battle between two gods looks like


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## Divell (Feb 28, 2017)

Kyouko said:


> first off, Gohan's max is what Toriyama deems it to be and can change it at his leisure, especially since DB is going through some crazy inflations with Super
> 
> second, SSJG Goku is god level...that was the whole point of his fight with Beerus, to showcase what a battle between two gods looks like


He can retconned it in the future. SSG Goku is still far below Beerus, who would get owned by Wiz, who would get owned by his father, who would get owned by the Omni King. Gohan is not God Tier. Even Goku right now being a God Tier is hard to see with the huge difference in power between him and the top dogs.


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## trance (Feb 28, 2017)

Divell said:


> He can retconned it in the future.


 
He already did



> SSG Goku is still far below Beerus, who would get owned by Wiz, who would get owned by his father, who would get owned by the Omni King. Gohan is not God Tier. Even Goku right now being a God Tier is hard to see with the huge difference in power between him and the top dogs.


 
admittedly, tiers are fanmade and subjective

so, arguing this is pointless tbh


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## Fang (Feb 28, 2017)

Also why is Divell using made up fanon terms like Mystic?


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## Divell (Feb 28, 2017)

Kyouko said:


> He already did
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He hasn't. Gohan hasn't reached Mystic yet.

Especially when Toriyama ignores power lvs. But can't help but still try to put some sense into it.


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## trance (Feb 28, 2017)

Divell said:


> He hasn't. Gohan hasn't reached Mystic yet


 
except he has

literally, nothing in Super points to him still being weaker than his Buu Saga "mystic" form

>Vegeta cited his potential as greater than his and Goku's
>Same character wanted Gohan on the team in the U6-U7 tournament
>Piccolo can compete against final form Frost
>Gohan is comparable to Piccolo in just his base form
>Had his durability praised by Champa
>Traded blows with his father who has the power of SSJG in his base form
>Deemed a suitable replacement for Vegeta in the preliminary fights

does it make any sense for him to have gotten so much stronger after just a bit of basic training especially considering he slacked off for several years? nope. did it happen anyway? yep


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## Volt manta (Feb 28, 2017)

Divell said:


> He can retconned it in the future. SSG Goku is still far below Beerus, who would get owned by Wiz, who would get owned by his father, who would get owned by the Omni King. Gohan is not God Tier. Even Goku right now being a God Tier is hard to see with the huge difference in power between him and the top dogs.


That's a pretty damn terrifying thought, considering trading shots with Beerus he almost leveled the universe. Considering who he's been fucking up throughout the series, that's a little bit worse. Whether or not he's on Beerus' level, saying he's not at the power he was before is a damn shaky claim.

As for the fight an super itself, I think it's pretty safe to say that when it comes to powerscaling in general, we have to take it on a case by case basis, priority pointing more towards Super's current powerscaling than what might have happened in DBZ. Because otherwise, we're going to argue ad nauseum over this shit, instead of accepting the fact that the writers don't really give a single fuck about powerscaling from DBZ, unless they're making a joke or a flashback. Does that mean universal Krillin? No(Unless he shows the feats for it  ) . Does that mean we have to get into a heated argument everytime someone shows their scaling's different from their DBZ version? I would like to hope not.


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## Claudio Swiss (Feb 28, 2017)

Also to note piccolo special beam cannon was able to break through vados barrier which could tank attacks from champa.
Which also surprised him.


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## xenos5 (Feb 28, 2017)

Blade said:


> let's end this right here, right now
> 
> *we accept low God tier Gohan, yes or no?*
> 
> ...



I'd want to wait and see if the later showings he gets in the tournament support or contradict him being at that level. I feel like Gohan'll probably achieve a god form of his own anyway (through Whis training or during the tournament) and that could be the definitive evidence for or against it since once you get a god form in DBS your base gets upgraded as well. So if Gohan does get a god form he may comment on how he feels a lot stronger even in base which wouldn't make too much sense if he was already low god tier before that point. And if he doesn't comment on his base form being any stronger than it'd be a good indication he was already low god tier.

Or another thing that could happen is Gohan could fight an opponent in the tournament that is definitively in or not in god tier. Lavenda seems definitively not god tier. So if Gohan only matches or doesn't oneshot another opponent who in one way or another seems definitively not god tier that would be evidence for him not being god tier. And if he fights an opponent who's definitely god tier, yeah... that'd be all that's required to prove him being god tier.


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## Divell (Feb 28, 2017)

Kyouko said:


> except he has
> 
> literally, nothing in Super points to him still being weaker than his Buu Saga "mystic" form
> 
> ...


Except getting his ass handed by someone who is around Buu. 

Vegeta said that. But that's before Goku and Vegeta obtain the God power.
As the same many far weaker than Buu.
Who was getting his ass handed to him by SSj Goku.
So? From Piccolo being skilled enough to outsmart Frost, who couldn't kill his opponent, to Gohan being stronger than Mystic form, is a huge gap.
Praising someone is not much to argue for power lvs.
Did you seriously just said this. Goku on his base form doesn't have the God power, he can access it on his own. And sparring doesn't mean much. 
So did Buu. He took Gohan because he didn't had many other to work with. Piccolo, Gohan, Vegeta and Buu, are literally the only worth fighters mentioning, and Piccolo was nowhere to be found. Vegeta was busy. So Gohan was the only option. 
Gohan is still not on his Mystic Form, nowhere near.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Divell (Feb 28, 2017)

Volt manta said:


> That's a pretty damn terrifying thought, considering trading shots with Beerus he almost leveled the universe. Considering who he's been fucking up throughout the series, that's a little bit worse. Whether or not he's on Beerus' level, saying he's not at the power he was before is a damn shaky claim.
> 
> As for the fight an super itself, I think it's pretty safe to say that when it comes to powerscaling in general, we have to take it on a case by case basis, priority pointing more towards Super's current powerscaling than what might have happened in DBZ. Because otherwise, we're going to argue ad nauseum over this shit, instead of accepting the fact that the writers don't really give a single fuck about powerscaling from DBZ, unless they're making a joke or a flashback. Does that mean universal Krillin? No(Unless he shows the feats for it  ) . Does that mean we have to get into a heated argument everytime someone shows their scaling's different from their DBZ version? I would like to hope not.


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## trance (Feb 28, 2017)

Divell said:


> Except getting his ass handed by someone who is around Buu.


 
wut?



> Vegeta said that. But that's before Goku and Vegeta obtain the God power.


 
newsflash...Goku and Vegeta have god ki by this time



> As the same many far weaker than Buu.


 
wut?



> Who was getting his ass handed to him by SSj Goku.


 
Yea but his third form can overwhelm Goku's base



> So? From Piccolo being skilled enough to outsmart Frost, who couldn't kill his opponent, to Gohan being stronger than Mystic form, is a huge gap.


 
Piccolo was close enough to Frost's level that he couldn't simply bulldoze through him or his attacks



> Praising someone is not much to argue for power lvs.


 
Being at his Buu Saga level of powers wouldn't warrant this praise



> Did you seriously just said this. Goku on his base form doesn't have the God power, he can access it on his own. And sparring doesn't mean much.


 
wtf? yes he does. have you even been paying attention since Super started?



> So did Buu. He took Gohan because he didn't had many other to work with. Piccolo, Gohan, Vegeta and Buu, are literally the only worth fighters mentioning, and Piccolo was nowhere to be found. Vegeta was busy. So Gohan was the only option.


 
ok


> Gohan is still not on his Mystic Form, nowhere near.


 
you're right. he's far above it


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## NightmareCinema (Feb 28, 2017)

Beerus already said that your base gets upgraded after achieving a god tier transformation.

He literally says that after first experiencing surprise as to why normal SSJ Goku is still able to hurt him after losing the SSJG transformation. Beerus smirked and told himself that it was over after seeing the transformation fizzle out before being decked in the schnozz by an untransformed Goku.

Base Goku then punched Beerus' Sphere of Destruction out of existence.

Goku kept that level of power.

Then there's also SSJ Goku slapping away a ki blast from Whis in Episode 77. And that was from a Goku who was far rustier than when he fought against Gohan just two episodes ago.

All these talks of "retcon" and "Toei forgetting" are talking out of their asses because they have no proof for any of these whatsoever. None of this "forgot" shit has been mentioned on-screen in the show nor mentioned by Toriyama himself.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Claudio Swiss (Feb 28, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Beerus already said that your base gets upgraded after achieving a god tier transformation.
> 
> He literally says that after first experiencing surprise as to why normal SSJ Goku is still able to hurt him after losing the SSJG transformation. Beerus smirked and told himself that it was over after seeing the transformation fizzle out before being decked in the schnozz by an untransformed Goku.
> 
> ...


Exactly I know super powerscale is a mess but unless it's been stated on screen or unless Tori mentions it there's no reason to assume they suddenly gotten weaker.
Also add
Base vegeta stomping ssj3 gotenks 
Base goku going being equal to base vegeta
Base goku lasting much longer against beerus in (Monaka suit) much better than he did as ssj3 in bog where he stomped and fought beerus to the point whis had to stop the fight.


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## Juub (Feb 28, 2017)

Why do you guys bother arguing with a guy who titles himself King of Trolls?


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## Fang (Feb 28, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> I'd want to wait and see if the later showings he gets in the tournament support or contradict him being at that level. I feel like Gohan'll probably achieve a god form of his own anyway (through Whis training or during the tournament) and that could be the definitive evidence for or against it since once you get a god form in DBS your base gets upgraded as well. So if Gohan does get a god form he may comment on how he feels a lot stronger even in base which wouldn't make too much sense if he was already low god tier before that point. And if he doesn't comment on his base form being any stronger than it'd be a good indication he was already low god tier.
> 
> Or another thing that could happen is Gohan could fight an opponent in the tournament that is definitively in or not in god tier. Lavenda seems definitively not god tier. So if Gohan only matches or doesn't oneshot another opponent who in one way or another seems definitively not god tier that would be evidence for him not being god tier. And if he fights an opponent who's definitely god tier, yeah... that'd be all that's required to prove him being god tier.



He's going to, if that happens, likely get a similar form to Future Trunks "Super Saiyan 2 Rage Form" thing I imagine. Toriyama and DBS writers aren't going to keep hinting and foreshadowing Gohan's decline and return to rising prime just to bank him off as being a side note character given everything with the Freeza Returns arc to indicating he's been returning to training with Piccolo, and the story deliberately keeping Gohan away from danger in the Zamasu/Goku Black/Future Trunks arc with this Universe Survival Tourney now.  

And again back to the Lavendar thing, the dude was having issues with base Gohan until he brought up the poison sneak attack bullshit. Once even while blinded, weakened, and suffering from that he was dominating Lavendar until it spread to the point of nerfing his power that they were even again. Hell, Gohan's still the benchmark for anyone not named Goku or Vegeta as the strongest fighter on Earth even rusted out as CT and CD have pointed out many a time now.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Adamant soul (Mar 1, 2017)

Fang said:


> He's going to, if that happens, likely get a similar form to Future Trunks "Super Saiyan 2 Rage Form" thing I imagine.



Oh Gohan's more than likely going to get Super Saiyan Ikari/Rage (though that will probably be when they decide on a permanent name for that form if they don't stick with Ikari). He's being set up to do well in the tournament given how thing's are progressing right now.


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## NightmareCinema (Mar 1, 2017)

Fang said:


> He's going to, if that happens, likely get a similar form to Future Trunks "Super Saiyan 2 Rage Form" thing I imagine. Toriyama and DBS writers aren't going to keep hinting and foreshadowing Gohan's decline and return to rising prime just to bank him off as being a side note character given everything with the Freeza Returns arc to indicating he's been returning to training with Piccolo, and the story deliberately keeping Gohan away from danger in the Zamasu/Goku Black/Future Trunks arc with this Universe Survival Tourney now.
> 
> And again back to the Lavendar thing, the dude was having issues with base Gohan until he brought up the poison sneak attack bullshit. Once even while blinded, weakened, and suffering from that he was dominating Lavendar until it spread to the point of nerfing his power that they were even again. Hell, Gohan's still the benchmark for anyone not named Goku or Vegeta as the strongest fighter on Earth even rusted out as CT and CD have pointed out many a time now.


Yup. People are forgetting that even when blinded, when Gohan used his other senses, Lavender couldn't land a hit on him.

And after turning Super Saiyan, Lavender couldn't do shit until the poison kicked in again.

That's more a point to how powerful Lavender's poison is than Gohan being weak, all things considered.


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## Juub (Mar 1, 2017)

Adamant soul said:


> Oh Gohan's more than likely going to get Super Saiyan Ikari/Rage (though that will probably be when they decide on a permanent name for that form if they don't stick with Ikari). He's being set up to do well in the tournament given how thing's are progressing right now.


I think they'll give him back his Mystic or Ultimate form.


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## Montanz (Mar 1, 2017)

Didn't gohan get some MFTL scaling from that parasyte thing he fought in ep 74?
The thing did travel to earth from a planet outside our solar system within days at worst.

One may not accept him being god tier but he sure as fuck isn't below his z era self, otherwise a lot of characters from the same era would become mftl by extension.


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## Adamant soul (Mar 1, 2017)

Juub said:


> I think they'll give him back his Mystic or Ultimate form.



I mean I'd be okay with that but I think this would be a good opportunity to truly return Gohan to his place up there with Goku and Vegeta which would make more sense with a new form for him rather an old one. AND they could give people the explanation of SSJI they've been asking for. Like establish that it's a half saiyan specific version of SSJB (which is more than likely what it is but confirmation would be nice).


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## Perpetrator Rex (Mar 1, 2017)

I don't think you can say Piccolo is God Tier, but Gohan isn't. 

Piccolo was on par with a weakened Frost who is capable of going toe to toe with SSJ Goku, when healthy.

Gohan is shown sparing with a SSJ Goku who is *OVER* *10x* stronger than the one that fought Frost. Even if Goku was holding back, it aint *that* much. Might as well, not even went Super Saiyin.


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## Fang (Mar 1, 2017)

Didn't a base Gohan tank a Blueberry Goku's baseball throw?


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## NightmareCinema (Mar 1, 2017)

Fang said:


> Didn't a base Gohan tank a Blueberry Goku's baseball throw?


Yup. During Episode 70.

Champa even complimented how tough Gohan is for taking that head-on.


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## Gordo solos (Mar 1, 2017)

Lavender vs Piccolo would have been a lot closer match


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## Toaa (Mar 1, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Yup. During Episode 70.
> 
> Champa even complimented how tough Gohan is for taking that head-on.


I believe the evidence of goku sparring with gohan and both actually going all out accidentally is a better proof.In 77 goku was sparing with whis and deflected his blast with ssj form.Point is why would whis train someone that is as strong as frieza or even buu.


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## Fang (Mar 1, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Yup. During Episode 70.
> 
> Champa even complimented how tough Gohan is for taking that head-on.



Thought so.



Toaa said:


> I believe the evidence of goku sparring with gohan and both actually going all out accidentally is a better proof.In 77 goku was sparing with whis and deflected his blast with ssj form.Point is why would whis train someone that is as strong as frieza or even buu.



Work on your reading comprehension please.


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## Gordo solos (Mar 1, 2017)

Toaa said:


> What?


That had nothing to do with what he asked


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## Toaa (Mar 1, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> That had nothing to do with what he asked


I believe that question was somehow meant as proof that gohan is within ssg goku's lv.


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## Fang (Mar 1, 2017)

Toaa said:


> I believe that question was somehow meant as proof that gohan is within ssg goku's lv.



Not really, hence why I asked you to work on your comprehension.


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## Toaa (Mar 1, 2017)

Fang said:


> Not really, hence why I asked you to work on your comprehension.


I dont believe thats exactly reading comprehension but whatever.


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## shade0180 (Mar 1, 2017)

Anyway where did anyone got that Gohan's limit is the one the old kai gave?


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## Fang (Mar 1, 2017)

Toaa said:


> I dont believe thats exactly reading comprehension but whatever.



Considering you completely misconstrued my question and the post replying to it, I think you might to try again.


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## Toaa (Mar 1, 2017)

Fang said:


> Considering you completely misconstrued my question and the post replying to it, I think you might to try again.


Of course because i never directly answered to your question.What i did was to bring up another instance which explains how gohan is also god tier.


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## Gordo solos (Mar 1, 2017)

Divell said:


> Except getting his ass handed by someone who is around Buu.


I'm not sure what you're trying to say here



Divell said:


> Vegeta said that. But that's before Goku and Vegeta obtain the God power.


What? Both Goku and Vegeta have SSJB when he said that. They have God ki at that point



Divell said:


> As the same many far weaker than Buu


What? Vegeta is far stronger than Boo at this point. I think you didn't understand what he said



Divell said:


> Who was getting his ass handed to him by SSj Goku.


Frost in his weaker Assault form overwhelmed Base Goku. His base was amped up from the God power-up



Divell said:


> So? From Piccolo being skilled enough to outsmart Frost, who couldn't kill his opponent, to Gohan being stronger than Mystic form, is a huge gap.


Even while exhausted, Frost's final form shouldn't be below his Assault form. Piccolo was still fast enough to react to his attacks and hold him in submission



Divell said:


> Praising someone is not much to argue for power lvs.


Depends on the situation. But no. GoD's like Beerus think Ultimate Gohan (since, you know, they _did_ fought) is trash. It's valid enough



Divell said:


> Did you seriously just said this. Goku on his base form doesn't have the God power, he can access it on his own. And sparring doesn't mean much.


Goku being God tier in base form was common knowledge even when the movies were still new dude 



Divell said:


> So did Buu. He took Gohan because he didn't had many other to work with. Piccolo, Gohan, Vegeta and Buu, are literally the only worth fighters mentioning, and Piccolo was nowhere to be found. Vegeta was busy. So Gohan was the only option.


Vegeta was busy, yeah. But he still picked Gohan so it's not like it matters.

Why are you making it sound like Piccolo is stronger than Gohan? You do know Gohan is stronger than him, right? Super still depicts him as being Earth's strongest warrior beside Goku and Vegeta



Divell said:


> Gohan is still not on his Mystic Form, nowhere near.


Your opinion, but whatever


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## Fang (Mar 1, 2017)

Toaa said:


> Of course because i never directly answered to your question.What i did was to bring up another instance which explains how gohan is also god tier.



Seeing as how your still missing the point completely, you are hopeless.


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## Toaa (Mar 1, 2017)

Fang said:


> Seeing as how your still missing the point completely, you are hopeless.


What point?Dont like my reply get over it.


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

SSJ Kid Trunks bruised his Future Self


SSJ Kid Trunks > Vegetto confirmed


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## Blocky (Mar 1, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> SSJ Kid Trunks bruised his Future Self
> 
> 
> SSJ Kid Trunks > Vegetto confirmed


You mean the part where he didn't want fight and hold back on?

Sure, that's on a pair with Vegito for some reason.


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## Gordo solos (Mar 1, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> SSJ Kid Trunks bruised his Future Self
> 
> 
> SSJ Kid Trunks > Vegetto confirmed


Trunks kept wailing on him for god knows how long, was exhausted, and still didn't do shit to his future self who was holding back. All while Future Trunks was base and Kid Trunks was SSJ

You could have used a better argument tbh


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## Fang (Mar 1, 2017)

Toaa said:


> I dont believe thats exactly reading comprehension but whatever.



Except it is, especially given the evidence you keep supplying showing you have no idea what we were talking about before you interjected:



Fang said:


> Didn't a base Gohan tank a Blueberry Goku's baseball throw?





NightmareCinema said:


> Yup. During Episode 70.
> 
> Champa even complimented how tough Gohan is for taking that head-on.



This is the tangent.

This is you being nonsensical:



Toaa said:


> *I believe the evidence of goku sparring with gohan and both actually going all out accidentally is a better proof.*In 77 goku was sparing with whis and deflected his blast with ssj form.Point is why would whis train someone that is as strong as frieza or even buu.



Work on your reading comprehension. You arrived at a stupid conclusion that had nothing to do with what we are talking about and made nonsensical remarks thereon in. Highlighting the bolded here to show this had jackshit to do with me and NM's conversation.


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> Trunks kept wailing on him for god knows how long, was exhausted, and still didn't do shit to his future self who was holding back. All while Future Trunks was base and Kid Trunks was SSJ
> 
> You could have used a better argument tbh




Well he didnt fight back that's for sure, but he did knock him on his ass


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## Worldbreaker (Mar 1, 2017)

Vegito stomps

Using the same logic of Gohan being god level because he spared with SSJ Goku would give Future Trunks an above level when he first arrived, because he managed to fight SSJ2 and SSJ3 Goku, and we know Trunks wasn't god level at that point, it's obvious Goku can control his power and set it up so he can fight in an equal level with his opponents


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

Worldbreaker said:


> Vegito stomps
> 
> Using the same logic of Gohan being god level because he spared with SSJ Goku would give Future Trunks an above level when he first arrived, because he managed to fight SSJ2 and SSJ3 Goku, and we know Trunks wasn't god level at that point, it's obvious Goku can control his power and set it up so he can fight in an equal level with his opponents




Im just convinced that, save for SSJB


The concept of absorbing God's power has pretty much been scrapped/retconned


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## trance (Mar 1, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Im just convinced that, save for SSJB
> 
> 
> The concept of absorbing God's power has pretty much been scrapped/retconned


 
nah

it's still there, just some instances are more obvious than others


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## NightmareCinema (Mar 1, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> Anyway where did anyone got that Gohan's limit is the one the old kai gave?


From their asses because Old Kai only said that he's going to release all of Gohan's still-dormant power at once.

Never did Old Kai once said that Gohan wouldn't be able to grow stronger after doing so.



Worldbreaker said:


> Vegito stomps
> 
> Using the same logic of Gohan being god level because he spared with SSJ Goku would give Future Trunks an above level when he first arrived, because he managed to fight SSJ2 and SSJ3 Goku, and we know Trunks wasn't god level at that point, it's obvious Goku can control his power and set it up so he can fight in an equal level with his opponents


Doesn't change the fact that base Goku still got overwhelmed by Assault Frost. 

Piccolo fought Final Form Frost.

Both Gohan and Future Trunks obviously scale to Piccolo.



TensaXZangetsu said:


> Im just convinced that, save for SSJB
> 
> 
> The concept of absorbing God's power has pretty much been scrapped/retconned


Nope. Not mentioned anywhere so this is just speculation at best.

The last thing said about this is still Beerus saying Goku absorbed it so that's what we're going with.


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

Kyouko said:


> nah
> 
> it's still there, just some instances are more obvious than others




Then it's obviously just a wash


Cabba being casually one shot by SSJ B Vegeta while seemingly having the power to make Beerus sweat doesn't pose a red flag for you?


Same for SSJ2 Trunks?


Either Saiyan Beyond God is some sort of Ultimate Gohan-esque Transformation, or the idea was scrapped altogether


Tho Im not gonna bother wasting my time w/ OBD when they're set in their ways

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Fang (Mar 1, 2017)

Not too mention again that even Goku and Vegeta with their Blueberry God forms has Vegeta outright stating Gohan's potential to grow is far greater then their own.


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## trance (Mar 1, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Then it's obviously just a wash
> 
> 
> Cabba being casually one shot by SSJ B Vegeta while seemingly having the power to make Beerus sweat doesn't pose a red flag for you?
> ...


 
like I said, some instances are more obvious than others

but altogether? until we get confirmation that it's been retconned/scrapped, we still go with it


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

Kyouko said:


> like I said, some instances are more obvious than others
> 
> but altogether? until we get confirmation that it's been retconned/scrapped, we still go with it




The Manga petty much follows Buu Saga scale


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## trance (Mar 1, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> The Manga petty much follows Buu Saga scale


 
the anime is better, tho

and also canon


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

Kyouko said:


> the anime is better, tho
> 
> and also canon



lol not it's not


And so is the Manga

Reactions: Agree 1


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## trance (Mar 1, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> lol not it's not


 
anime > manga

stay mad



> And so is the Manga


 
never said it wasn't


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

Kyouko said:


> anime > manga
> 
> stay mad
> 
> ...




W/e man


Believe what you like


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## Gordo solos (Mar 1, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> The Manga petty much follows Buu Saga scale


Manga is a different continuity. That should be obvious since Black and Hit are much weaker in the manga than they are in the anime


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## Worldbreaker (Mar 1, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Im just convinced that, save for SSJB
> 
> 
> The concept of absorbing God's power has pretty much been scrapped/retconned



I personally believe Goku can adjust his power but I don't agree at all that everyone that doesn't die from a punch from Goku is now god level



NightmareCinema said:


> Doesn't change the fact that base Goku still got overwhelmed by Assault Frost.
> 
> Piccolo fought Final Form Frost.
> 
> Both Gohan and Future Trunks obviously scale to Piccolo.



The fact that you are mentioning Piccolo a character who declines to train with Goku because he can't keep up with him as your proof is not a really good idea also Piccolo fought an exhausted final form Frost and was just keping his distance

A  character that struggles to fight Dabura is not god level


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> Manga is a different continuity. That should be obvious since Black and Hit are much weaker in the manga than they are in the anime




Yet adapted from the same script


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## Fang (Mar 1, 2017)

If you're talking about DBS canon, then the anime is primary source while the manga is secondary. And from what I heard from CD, GM, and others is that the manga can differ radically from how events happen in the story compared to the anime. I think the most blatant with this is the whole tournament arc with Hit getting trounced more easily by Goku where its literally the opposite of that in the anime.

Regardless:

DBS anime takes precedence over the DBS manga, which is there to add supplemental information and have an alternative view of things. Think of Star Wars EU/pre-Disney canon with EU/Legends being canon where it doesn't contradict things in the movies and shows.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Blocky (Mar 1, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Then it's obviously just a wash
> 
> 
> Cabba being casually one shot by SSJ B Vegeta while seemingly having the power to make Beerus sweat doesn't pose a red flag for you?
> ...


Then why are you still here talking.


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## Gordo solos (Mar 1, 2017)

Fang said:


> If you're talking about DBS canon, then the anime is primary source while the manga is secondary. And from what I heard from CD, GM, and others is that the manga can differ radically from how events happen in the story compared to the anime. I think the most blatant with this is the whole tournament arc with Hit getting trounced more easily by Goku where its literally the opposite of that in the anime.
> 
> Regardless:
> 
> DBS anime takes precedence over the DBS manga, which is there to add supplemental information and have an alternative view of things. Think of Star Wars EU/pre-Disney canon with EU/Legends being canon where it doesn't contradict things in the movies and shows.


Basically, in the manga their base and SSJ forms are still operating at Z levels. It's SSJB/G that's god tier


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## NightmareCinema (Mar 1, 2017)

Worldbreaker said:


> I personally believe Goku can adjust his power but I don't agree at all that everyone that doesn't die from a punch from Goku is now god level
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're wrong when it comes to Saint Seiya and now you're wrong when it comes to Dragon Ball. Kurou was right in calling you Wrongbreaker.

Piccolo physically overpowered Frost at the end and the latter had to resort to using his poison. Piccolo's Makankosappo blew a hole through the dome. SSJ Vegeta's punch to Frost then cracked the dome as well. The same dome that took Champa's attacks with no damage.

Trunks fought Dabura before he fought Black so stop trying to twist shit here.


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

Fang said:


> If you're talking about DBS canon, then the anime is primary source while the manga is secondary. And from what I heard from CD, GM, and others is that the manga can differ radically from how events happen in the story compared to the anime. I think the most blatant with this is the whole tournament arc with Hit getting trounced more easily by Goku where its literally the opposite of that in the anime.
> 
> Regardless:
> 
> DBS anime takes precedence over the DBS manga, which is there to add supplemental information and have an alternative view of things. Think of Star Wars EU/pre-Disney canon with EU/Legends being canon where it doesn't contradict things in the movies and shows.




You obviously don't understand how the serialization of Super works but ok


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## God Movement (Mar 1, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> You obviously don't understand how the serialization of Super works but ok



Regardless. The anime is accepted as the main canon source in 99.9% of places. So that's what we will go with in debates. This debate is old and tired at this point.


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

God Movement said:


> Why are people still claiming the God power disappeared with no proof?
> 
> Proof 1:
> 
> ...





Someone who can fight on par w/ someone else who made Beerus sweat, can get casually one-shotted by SSJB Vegeta?

K.


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

God Movement said:


> Regardless. The anime is accepted as the main canon source in 99.9% of places. So that's what we will go with in debates. This debate is old and tired at this point.



K.

The anime's flawed when it comes to consistency but let's use it anyway cause our Power Level Boner tells us to


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## God Movement (Mar 1, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Someone who can fight on par w/ someone else who pressed Beerus, can get casually one-shotted by SSJB Vegeta?
> 
> K.



Beerus held back of course against Goku, like he did against SSJG Goku. So yes, SSJB can one shot low god tier fighters with no problem. There are levels to god tier, why are you unable to grasp this concept?


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## God Movement (Mar 1, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> K.
> 
> The anime's flawed when it comes to consistency but let's use it anyway cause our Power Level Boner tells us to



It's the the main source of Super that's put at the forefront evidently. That's why we use it. It has nothing to do with consistency. You're not going to make anybody start using the manga because you like it more. Enough of this.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

God Movement said:


> Beerus held back of course against Goku, like he did against SSJG Goku. So yes, SSJB can one shot low god tier fighters with no problem. There are levels to god tier, why are you unable to grasp this concept?




So Vegeta at that point in time was stronger than the Beerus that fought Goku?


That's really your argument?


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

God Movement said:


> It's the the main source of Super that's put at the forefront evidently. That's why we use it. It has nothing to do with consistency. You're not going to make anybody start using the manga because you like it more. Enough of this.





Let's cut the crap, it comes out SOONER.

That's the only reason you use it as evidence

Reactions: Dislike 5


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## Gordo solos (Mar 1, 2017)

No one has the right to say the manga is more consistent with power levels because recently the powerscaling went (before Black's power up)

SSJ2 Vegeta>>>>Black>>>FPSSJ2 Trunks~SSJ3 Goku


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## God Movement (Mar 1, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> So Vegeta at that point in time was stronger than the Beerus that fought Goku?
> 
> 
> That's really your argument?



What? Do I need to make a powerscale so you understand?

Serious Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJB > Non-Serious Beerus > SSJG = SSJ Vegeta/Goku > SSJ Cabba > Base Cabba/Vegeta/Goku

Does this make more sense?


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## God Movement (Mar 1, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Let's cut the crap, it comes out SOONER.
> 
> That's the only reason you use it as evidence



You want us to use the manga which doesn't even have the Revival of F Arc in it? Are you drunk?

It's so obvious that it isn't the main source of canon that it's not even funny. We use it because it has never been described as promotional material, the manga however HAS. By Toyotaro his damn fucking self.


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> No one has the right to say the manga is more consistent with power levels because recently the powerscaling went (before Black's power up)
> 
> SSJ2 Vegeta>>>>Black>>>FPSSJ2 Trunks~SSJ3 Goku



This was explained since SSJ2 Vegeta outperformed SSJ3 Goku

SSJ Black and SSJ2 Vegeta are on par




God Movement said:


> What? Do I need to make a powerscale so you understand?
> 
> Serious Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJB > Non-Serious Beerus > SSJG = SSJ Vegeta/Goku > SSJ Cabba > Base Cabba/Vegeta/Goku
> 
> Does this make more sense?



SSJ Cabba and SSJ Vegeta are equals


So SSJG can give Beerus a good fight, but gets one shot by SSJB Vegeta


Yup makes sense.


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

God Movement said:


> You want us to use the manga which doesn't even have the Revival of F Arc in it? Are you drunk?
> 
> It's so obvious that it isn't the main source of canon that it's not even funny. We use it because it has never been described as promotional material, the manga however HAS. By Toyotaro his damn fucking self.




Toyotaro has also explicitly stated he sticks to the script that Toriyama gives him, when TOEI on the other hand is infamous for embellishing it.


You're getting desperate at this point, my man.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## God Movement (Mar 1, 2017)

> SSJ Cabba and SSJ Vegeta are equals
> 
> 
> So SSJG can give Beerus a good fight, but gets one shot by SSJB Vegeta
> ...



No they aren't equals.

SSJG can give a limited Beerus a good fight, there's a big difference.

You see, you're making up strawman arguments because you can't actually refute what's being put before you. Let's quickly expose your strawman arguments.

I clearly state here the difference between a serious Beerus and a Beerus that's holding back.



> Serious Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJB > Non-Serious Beerus > SSJG



You ignore this.

I then state that SSJ Cabba is WEAKER than SSJ Vegeta.



> SSJG = SSJ Vegeta/Goku > SSJ Cabba



So can you explain to us all why you are making up imaginary arguments to debate against?



TensaXZangetsu said:


> Toyotaro has also explicitly stated he sticks to the script that Toriyama gives him, when TOEI on the other hand is infamous for embellishing it.
> 
> 
> You're getting desperate at this point, my man.



Which they have the greenlight to do. Anyway, this argument is boring. We'll continue to use the anime as long as Super runs and long after it finishes. If you want to debate the manga then make a thread stating you're using the manga version.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

God Movement said:


> No they aren't equals.
> 
> SSJG can give a limited Beerus a good fight, there's a big difference.
> 
> ...



And Did SSJB Vegeta look like he was putting any effort into one shotting Cabba? He literally gave him the SSJ3 Goku vs Beerus treatment

So according to you, Beerus has to more effort into stalemating SSJG Goku than Vegeta does to one shot him



> You ignore this.
> 
> I then state that SSJ Cabba is WEAKER than SSJ Vegeta.



That's not what's presented in canon


> So can you explain to us all why you are making up imaginary arguments to debate against?



I'd rather you address my points than call out random fallacies that dont exist



> Which they have the greenlight to do. Anyway, this argument is boring. We'll continue to use the anime as long as Super runs and long after it finishes. If you want to debate the manga then make a thread stating you're using the manga version.




Another desperate attempt to hide the fact that using the Super anime as evidence is a slippery slope


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## God Movement (Mar 1, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> And Did SSJB Vegeta look like he was putting any effort into one shotting Cabba? He literally gave him the SSJ3 Goku vs Beerus treatment



That can happen since SSJB >> SSJG. Hard to understand right?



> So according to you, Beerus has to more effort into stalemating SSJG Goku than Vegeta does to one shot him



He didn't put any effort in. He limited himself.



> That's not what's presented in canon



So you didn't watch the fight at all then? Vegeta took Cabba's punch right to his head at the end and no sold it. He was letting Cabba get hits in. He's stronger. End of.



> I'd rather you address my points than call out random fallacies that dont exist



I exposed you for using strawman arguments. Sorry, no way around it, we've all seen it.



> Another desperate attempt to hide the fact that using the Super anime as evidence is a slippery slope



You are horrible at this.


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## Divell (Mar 1, 2017)

Kyouko said:


> wut?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


News Flash, Goku and Vegeta can access to the Ki, they don't have it constantly activated. Piccolo was getting his ass handed to him until decided to use tricks to buy time. Piccolo was charging his best attack to put a dent on Frost, while Frost couldn't use his full power otherwise would kill him. Mystic Gohan is something Gohan has not


Gordo solos said:


> I'm not sure what you're trying to say here
> 
> 
> What? Both Goku and Vegeta have SSJB when he said that. They have God ki at that point
> ...


Except that Ultimate Gohan has not appeared since Buu saga. 

Look, Mystic Gohan/Ultimate Gohan, is Gohan's maximum potential brought forth. That's the strongest he would ever get without an extra power such as the SSG. Is explained that once their maximum potential is awaken. They can't become stronger than that via any normal means such as training. Gohan unless he awakens SSG like his father, Vegeta or Trunks' variation. Then he won't be stronger than what he was at Buu saga.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Fang (Mar 1, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> You obviously don't understand how the serialization of Super works but ok



Prove it.


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

God Movement said:


> That can happen since SSJB >> SSJG. Hard to understand right?



SSJG can make  Beerus get somewhat serious, yet cant do the same against SSJB Vegeta?



> He didn't put any effort in. He limited himself.



No, Against SSJ3 there was no effort.

Comparing that fight to his battle with SSJG Goku is night and day. While Beerus wasnt using his full strength, he did have to get somewhat serios



> So you didn't watch the fight at all then? Vegeta took Cabba's punch right to his head at the end and no sold it. He was letting Cabba get hits in. He's stronger. End of.



So him getting pushed back was all an act? Blocking on move doesnt make you the stronger one by default

If Vegeta is stronger, then it's not by a wide margin




> I exposed you for using strawman arguments. Sorry, no way around it, we've all seen it.



There are no strawmen, I dont even think you know what that means. You just have a selective method in powerscaling



> You are horrible at this.



Concession accepted

Reactions: Dislike 5


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

Fang said:


> Prove it.




Are you being for real?


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## Fang (Mar 1, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Are you being for real?



Yeah, I'm asking you for evidence of the manga having a higher precedent for being more canon the anime which contradicts Toyataro's own words as well as Toriyama's. Post evidence.

Reactions: Like 5


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## God Movement (Mar 1, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> SSJG can make  Beerus get somewhat serious, yet cant do the same against SSJB Vegeta?



Serious Beerus > SSJB KKx10 > SSJB > Limited Beerus > SSJG

So we have identified Beerus used much less than 10% against SSJG Goku. How is that Beerus being serious? Time to let it go mate.

EDIT:

In fact it's worse because current SSJB Goku is in the range of 10x stronger than he was in the U6 Arc. So Beerus could have used even 1% against Goku.



> No, Against SSJ3 there was no effort.
> 
> Comparing that fight to his battle with SSJG Goku is night and day. While Beerus wasnt using his full strength, he did have to get somewhat serios



Semantics. He still wasn't serious with SSJG. He hasn't been serious yet in the series.



> *So him getting pushed back was all an act?* Blocking on move doesnt make you the stronger one by default
> 
> If Vegeta is stronger, then it's not by a wide margin



YES. Base Cabba is equal to Base Vegeta but SSJ Vegeta is clearly stronger than SSJ Cabba.



> There are no strawmen, I dont even think you know what that means. You just have a selective method in powerscaling
> 
> 
> 
> Concession accepted



"A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument"

This is literally exactly what you did. Why are you playing stupid? Admit you did it and move on.


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

Fang said:


> Yeah, I'm asking you for evidence of the manga having a higher precedent for being more canon the anime which contradicts Toyataro's own words as well as Toriyama's. Post evidence.




Toyataro states that he sticks to script and makes very few deviations, TOEI on the other hand has a track record of the exact opposite

In the end the primary canon would just be the rough drafts Toriyama creates, but good luck getting a hold of those

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Fang (Mar 1, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Toyataro states that he sticks to script and makes very few deviations, TOEI on the other hand has a track record of the exact opposite
> 
> In the end the primary canon would just be the rough drafts Toriyama creates, but good luck getting a hold of those



I'm not seeing any evidence, statements, or proof that elevates the manga above the anime; just your head canon on what counts which is very much not going to to be accepted by anyone. That isn't going to fly here. Put up or shut up, that simple.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Gordo solos (Mar 1, 2017)

Divell said:


> Except that Ultimate Gohan has not appeared since Buu saga.
> 
> Look, Mystic Gohan/Ultimate Gohan, is Gohan's maximum potential brought forth. That's the strongest he would ever get without an extra power such as the SSG. Is explained that once their maximum potential is awaken. They can't become stronger than that via any normal means such as training. Gohan unless he awakens SSG like his father, Vegeta or Trunks' variation. Then he won't be stronger than what he was at Buu saga.


Are...are you getting this info from HST tards that know nothing about this series or something 

I thought Ultimate Gohan being in BOG, both in the film and Super, is blatantly obvious

Maximum/full potential statements have always been a thing in DB. Elder Kai's potential unlock bringing out everything in him was retconned. Especially since Gohan's hyped to have the best potential in the series, and even Trunks can reach SSJB level


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

God Movement said:


> Serious Beerus > SSJB KKx10 > SSJB > Limited Beerus > SSJG
> 
> So we have identified Beerus used much less than 10% against SSJG Goku. How is that Beerus being serious? Time to let it go mate.



This fucking desperation man


He confirmed to be using 10% against SSJ2 Vegeta, is SSJ Vegeta SSJB level now?

Bringing in numbers because youre running low on concrete evidence just sad man



> Semantics. He still wasn't serious with SSJG. He hasn't been serious yet in the series.



I'd argue Frieza was serious against Goku at 50%, but he still dominated that match up and misuse of semantics

No different for Beerus


> YES. Base Cabba is equal to Base Vegeta but SSJ Vegeta is clearly stronger than SSJ Cabba.



Doesnt prove much



> "A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument"
> 
> This is literally exactly what you did. Why are you playing stupid? Admit you did it and move on.




No, I pretty much stated why your powerscale doesnt hold up. It sounds dumb, cause it is. You just prefer to wank to your silly PL's

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

Fang said:


> I'm not seeing any evidence, statements, or proof that elevates the manga above the anime; just your head canon on what counts which is very much not going to to be accepted by anone. That isn't going to fly here. Put up or shut up, that simple.





The interview is out there, bringing it here is not worth my time. And considering you're probably not gonna look for it either I'd say YOU should STFU

The anime getting more attention doesn't make it more canon, since the Anime has filler and the Manga does not

The only way you'd claim otherwise is if you think that TOEI writes Super

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## NightmareCinema (Mar 1, 2017)

Fang said:


> I'm not seeing any evidence, statements, or proof that elevates the manga above the anime; just your head canon on what counts which is very much not going to to be accepted by anone. That isn't going to fly here. Put up or shut up, that simple.


I think I read from somewhere that Toriyama is more involved with the anime than the manga, despite Toyotaro saying that he doesn't deviate from Tori's rough drafts.

Don't really remember where, though.

But yeah, still seeing nothing here that puts the manga above the anime in terms of canon.


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## God Movement (Mar 1, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> This fucking desperation man
> 
> 
> He confirmed to be using 10% against SSJ2 Vegeta, is SSJ Vegeta SSJB level now?
> ...



So you believe that?

Just so we're clear. You believe that SSJB KKx10 Goku is stronger than Beerus?

Reply in your own time.



> I'd argue Frieza was serious against Goku at 50%, but he still dominated that match up and misuse of semantics
> 
> No different for Beerus



But the MATH doesn't add up. If we are to believe he did then SSJB KKx10 Goku is stronger than Beerus by a wide margin. He isn't.



> Doesnt prove much



Can't say you're making sense anymore.



> No, I pretty much stated why your powerscale doesnt hold up. It sounds dumb, cause it is. You just prefer to wank to your silly PL's



Is it meltdown time already?

Reactions: Like 1


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## NightmareCinema (Mar 1, 2017)

God Movement said:


> Is it meltdown time already?


It's been meltdown time since he bitched about DA OBD being set in its own ways about which version of DBS is "more canon" and it's just been a downward spiral since then.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Fang (Mar 1, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> The interview is out there, bringing it here is not worth my time. And considering you're probably not gonna look for it either I'd say YOU should STFU



Difference is the burden of proof is on you to prove your claim, and you are failing at that badly:

Also checking:

Toriyama does script work for both the manga and the anime, difference here is the manga is a promotional work specifically NOTED to promote the anime. Do you understand this? The manga is subordinate to the anime and the films. The manga which penned under Toyotaro deviates his continuity significantly from the anime's. 

The manga is a more filtered and altered version of the events in the story in from the anime. Toyotaro adapts it in a different way to present a different account of plot points. Toriyama's involvement with it is less then his with the anime since Toriyama directly supervises and heads the scriptwork for the anime, Toyotaro simply works down from there.

So no: DBS Super canon goes anime > then manga.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

God Movement said:


> So you believe that?
> 
> Just so we're clear. You believe that SSJB KKx10 Goku is stronger than Beerus?
> 
> Reply in your own time.



I believe that numbers are shit way of calculating PL, since they're never consistent

You throwing them out is nothing more than a silly copout



> But the MATH doesn't add up. If we are to believe he did then SSJB KKx10 Goku is stronger than Beerus by a wide margin. He isn't.



Numbers in DB aren't consistent. Beerus stated to be using 10% of his max power against SSJ2 Vegeta

According to you it'd be closer to .01% or sumthin





> Is it meltdown time already?




I'll take this as yet another concession


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

Fang said:


> Difference is the burden of proof is on you to prove your claim, and you are failing at that badly:
> 
> Also checking:
> 
> ...




Re-read my post I added a few details


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## God Movement (Mar 1, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> I believe that numbers are shit way of calculating PL, since they're never consistent
> 
> You throwing them out is nothing more than a silly copout



You can believe what you want. If SSJB KKx10 Goku cannot beat Beerus (he can't) then Beerus was toying with SSJG Goku. As if that wasn't obvious regardless.

Anyway, I would advise you put your DBS manga book down for a moment and actually watch the anime.


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

God Movement said:


> You can believe what you want. If SSJB KKx10 Goku cannot beat Beerus (he can't) then Beerus was toying with SSJG Goku. As if that wasn't obvious regardless.
> 
> Anyway, I would advise you put your DBS manga book down for a moment and actually watch the anime.




And, I would advise you actually look at the Anime objectively than with your PL boner. You'd see that the powerscale is a slippery slope to the point where PL's dont even fucking matter in the long run

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Fang (Mar 1, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Re-read my post I added a few details



You just added more garbage without providing any evidence.

No one literally NO ONE is buying this from you so you can be as much a broken record as you want, its not going to change our standards with DBS anime being the primary canon for the story. And again you fail at even the most rudimentary and basic of debating decorum here by being unable to even be assed to physically prove your argument.

Reactions: Like 5


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## Perpetrator Rex (Mar 1, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> lol not it's not
> 
> 
> And so is the Manga


I tend to agree.

I think it comes down to preference for this site, because you seriously can't argue one is more canon than the other, based on the totality of evidence. There is enough evidence on both sides.

At first I thought the intense aversion to the manga on this site was some inside joke, but I see it's not. Crazy.


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

Fang said:


> You just added more garbage without providing any evidence.
> 
> No one literally NO ONE is buying this from you so you can be as much a broken record as you want, its not going to change our standards with DBS anime being the primary canon for the story. And again you fail at even the most rudimentary and basic of debating decorum here by being unable to even be assed to physically prove your argument.




So you think TOEI writes Super then, correct? The Arale special was canon to u? As well as the baseball episode?


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## Adamant soul (Mar 1, 2017)

Well this certainly went somewhere didn't it? 

I'm just gonna say anime is more canon but the scaling is bloated as hell (not that this means literally anything when it comes to which is more canon). Much as I don't like Gohan already being god tier (I want him to reach that in the tournament) it's looking that way based on the evidence. Gonna have to begrudgingly change my vote to Gohan winning.


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## Fang (Mar 1, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> So you think TOEI writes Super then, correct? The Arale special was canon to u? As well as the baseball episode?



Holy smokes look at those strawmans.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1


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## xenos5 (Mar 1, 2017)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> At first I thought aversion of the manga on this site was some inside joke, but I see it's not. Crazy.



How is it crazy to not like a manga adaptation of an anime that rushes events to a ridiculous degree with breakneck pacing due it coming out only once a month? Is it not understandable how that would be unsatisfying to a lot of people?


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> How is it crazy to not like a manga adaptation of an anime that rushes events to a ridiculous degree with breakneck pacing due it coming out only once a month? Is it not understandable how that would be unsatisfying to a lot of people?



Manga doesn't rush shit, TOEI just adds a bunch of filler.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Ashi (Mar 1, 2017)

Fang said:


> Holy smokes look at those strawmans.




Anime is canon to you, those are in the anime.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Perpetrator Rex (Mar 1, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> How is it crazy to not like a manga adaptation of an anime that rushes events to a ridiculous degree with breakneck pacing due it coming out only once a month? Is it not understandable how that would be unsatisfying to a lot of people?



Wait, so you think the anime *isn't* as rushed or even more so than the manga? Do you really believe that?

Let's be honest, you guys like/use the anime cuz it has all the feats and it's ahead. Nothin wrong that. Cuz seriously, the manga and anime are tellin the same God Damn story, 90%, the same God Damn way. We all know it.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## trance (Mar 1, 2017)

Divell said:


> News Flash, Goku and Vegeta can access to the Ki, they don't have it constantly activated.


 
it really is



> Piccolo was getting his ass handed to him until decided to use tricks to buy time. Piccolo was charging his best attack to put a dent on Frost, while Frost couldn't use his full power otherwise would kill him.


 
if Piccolo was utter trash to Frost, he shouldn't have had to resort to his poison just to escape his grasp but he did because Piccolo was close enough to him in strength that he couldn't immediately brush him aside



> Mystic Gohan is something Gohan has no.


 
right again

he's surpassed it


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## Gordo solos (Mar 2, 2017)

Back in 2015, I remember seeing a statement from the man himself saying that the _anime _is the continuation of his work, not the manga. That's promotional material

It has nothing to do with the feats since the universe shaking shit is in the manga lol


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## Fang (Mar 2, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Anime is canon to you, those are in the anime.



>doesn't address my point
>gives non related argument
>attacks arguments not made by me

Cute.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Perpetrator Rex (Mar 2, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> I remember seeing a statement from the man himself saying that the _anime _*is the continuation of his work*


The same shit is said about the manga. Not even kidding. The difference in canon validity between the mediums is mythical.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Ashi (Mar 2, 2017)

Fang said:


> >doesn't address my point
> >gives non related argument
> >attacks arguments not made by me
> 
> Cute.






Here you go.

Now fuck off


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## Fang (Mar 2, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Here you go.
> 
> Now fuck off



This literally addresses nothing about the anime at all being inferior to the manga. In fact you sunk your own claims here:



> Fundamentally, I don't deviate from the major plotlines that Toriyama's laid down. As far as the plot getting from A to B, that's written as Toriyama it lays down. *But as far as the details between those plot points, I'm free to fill them in myself*.



So congratulations on proving the point that the manga doesn't supersede the anime. Hell Toyotaro is outright admitting here he deviates in his own interruption of the story further away from Toriyama's direction. Case in point Hit vs Goku, Goku Black vs Vegeta, etc...

@KaiserWombat 
@Nighty the Mighty could you come here and do something about this guy?

Reactions: Funny 5 | Winner 1


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## xenos5 (Mar 2, 2017)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> Wait, so you think the anime *isn't* as rushed or even more so than the manga? Do you really believe that?



Yes. The manga skips over content that develops the characters like the two episodes with Hit and two episodes with Krillin that were between the future trunks arc and the Universe Survival Arc. As well as the episode where Vegeta goes on a trip to an amusement park with his family showing further how much he's changed. And it makes fights a lot shorter cutting out a lot of the cool action and fighting choreography the anime has.



Perpetrator Rex said:


> Let's be honest, you guys like/use the anime cuz it has all the feats and it's ahead. Nothin wrong that. Cuz seriously, the manga and anime are tellin the same God Damn story, 90%, the same God Damn way. We all know it.



I genuinely like the anime better for reasons more than feats and it being ahead. There are big differences that make the manga truly worse for me. I think one of the best examples of this is how Black was changed. Rather than being the savage that he is in the anime the manga removes the saiyan influences his body has on his personality and makes him more whiny like Zamasu. When Vegeta is beating him rather than staying calm, cool, and collected he has a complete temper tantrum. And towards the end when Vegeta's about to use final flash on him he even looks terrified and is closing his eyes. 

You can see all of this in just chapter 19 

EDIT: The chapter also ruins hakai by making it Beerus doing a generic vaporization attack rather than in the anime how he erases his opponent completely with a very cool effect.


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## Qinglong (Mar 2, 2017)

>posts a link which shoots down his own argument

literally Thor 2.0

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Ashi (Mar 2, 2017)

Fang said:


> This literally addresses nothing about the anime at all being inferior to the manga. In fact you sunk your own claims here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lol, He was talking about minor details

And really crying to the mods cause someone disagreed?

OBD man...

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Perpetrator Rex (Mar 2, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Yes. The manga skips over content that develops the characters like the two episodes with Hit and two episodes with Krillin that were between the future trunks arc and the Universe Survival Arc. As well as the episode where Vegeta goes on a trip to an amusement park with his family showing further how much he's changed. And it makes fights a lot shorter cutting out a lot of the cool action and fighting choreography the anime has.


That's filler, bro. Do you like the Z filler, too?
Not to mention those *are *legitimate reasons to like the anime better, but besides you, I have not seen anyone make these points.


xenos5 said:


> I genuinely like the anime better for reasons more than feats and it being ahead. There are big differences that make the manga truly worse for me. I think one of the best examples of this is how Black was changed. Rather than being the savage that he is in the anime the manga removes the saiyan influences his body has on his personality and makes him more whiny like Zamasu. When Vegeta is beating him rather than staying calm, cool, and collected he has a complete temper tantrum. And towards the end when Vegeta's about to use final flash on him he even looks terrified and is closing his eyes.
> 
> You can see all of this in just chapter 19


See man, now you're gettin really deep in the weeds. . .But okay, if you legitimately feel Black is no longer a savage in the manga. . .The shit all looks the same to me, though.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Fang (Mar 2, 2017)

>minor details
>completely fudges entire plot points and only matches end results

You're spinning a head canon that only you perceive with no evidence to support it being above the anime which has a closer working relationship with Toriyama's storyboards, scripts, and writing supervision. Not buying it. Hell to add to this, the manga does a complete 180 from both the movie and the anime with Beerus vs Goku and the former's reaction to Goku getting his God power up, both versions not remotely matching Toyotaro's weird Beerus not giving a shit reaction while the other two too.

Fact you posted an interview that directly shows this is hilarious.


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## Worldbreaker (Mar 2, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> You're wrong when it comes to Saint Seiya and now you're wrong when it comes to Dragon Ball. Kurou was right in calling you Wrongbreaker.
> 
> Piccolo physically overpowered Frost at the end and the latter had to resort to using his poison. Piccolo's Makankosappo blew a hole through the dome. SSJ Vegeta's punch to Frost then cracked the dome as well. The same dome that took Champa's attacks with no damage.
> 
> Trunks fought Dabura before he fought Black so stop trying to twist shit here.



Me being right or wrong of a thread that has nothing to do with this and people changing my name to sound funny is irrelevant 

For the second time you're ignoring the fact the Frost was exhausted from fighting Goku when he faced Piccolo, not to mention that the Makankossapo is a special technique that's supposed to do that type of thing, it's supposed to deal damage to characters that are stronger like in his fight with Raditz where his normal attacks didn't do shit but the Makankossapo managed to kill Raditz plus Goku, you're argument it's like saying Krillin was on the same level as Frieza in namek because he managed to cut his tale, not to mention that Goku knew Piccolo was weaker than Frost

Black wasn't that big of a deal either, the Saiyan gods said they could beat him without any problems at that time of the story, Black wasn't God level when he fought Trunks in his timeline

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Ashi (Mar 2, 2017)

Fang said:


> >minor details
> >completely fudges entire plot points and only matches end results
> 
> You're spinning a head canon that only you perceive with no evidence to support it being above the anime which has a closer working relationship with Toriyama's storyboards, scripts, and writing supervision. Not buying it. Hell to add to this, the manga does a complete 180 from both the movie and the anime with Beerus vs Goku and the former's reaction to Goku getting his God power up, both versions not remotely matching Toyotaro's weird Beerus not giving a shit reaction while the other two too.
> ...




Show me your proof that Toriyama is worker any closer to the Anime?


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## Ashi (Mar 2, 2017)

Also funny how you skimmed over this little tidbit 



> Every month, I'll create a storyboard for him to review, and then he'll give me input and suggest changes. When I'm working with Toriyama, there are many portions he gives me props for coming up with, but he is very particular about other things and always points them out for me to correct. And when he corrects me, I think “Wow, I guess I don't completely understand the way he looks at things,” so his corrections and feedback are incredibly accurate and helpful. It's a lot of fun to be able to get closer to his way of thinking.


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## Fang (Mar 2, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Show me your proof that Toriyama is worker any closer to the Anime?



Ah nope.



			
				Toyotaro said:
			
		

> Fundamentally, I don't deviate from the major plotlines that Toriyama's laid down. As far as the plot getting from A to B, that's written as Toriyama it lays down. *But as far as the details between those plot points, I'm free to fill them in myself*.



The argument was originally you claiming Toyotaro has more involvement from Toriyama with the manga then Toei does with the anime. You have repeatedly failed to address this.

Burden's still on you.



TensaXZangetsu said:


> Also funny how you skimmed over this little tidbit



It doesn't address anything with Toriyama's relation with the anime so why should I care? You're terrible at this.


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## Ashi (Mar 2, 2017)

Fang said:


> I don't even understand what you're saying here. And still not seeing any evidence or proof of Toyotaro's manga which deviates from the anime being more canon. Especially when it lacks consistency with the films on top of the TV series.
> 
> Try again.




Toyatarou's always getting input from Toriyama, If Toriyama wanted say... SSJBKKx10, it would've been in the Manga.


But guess what, it wasn't. And Going in circles doesn't change that Toriyama's word is the ultimate canon and the Manga has been shown to be more in line with his vision

Reactions: Dislike 4


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## Fang (Mar 2, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Toyatarou's always getting input from Toriyama, If Toriyama wanted say... SSJBKKx10, it would've been in the Manga.



So what, Toriyama does the storyboards, drafting, supervision of scripts, and writing for the anime as well. So this relates to the manga superceding the anime how? Especially again when the anime is literally a promotional side-work according to Toei for the anime? Are you not getting this?



> But guess what, it wasn't. And Going in circles doesn't change that Toriyama's word is the ultimate canon and the Manga has been shown to be more in line with his vision





"Dragon Ball Super anime: story written and supervised by Akira Toriyama".

Nope.

Actually sod it, on ignore you go, no one can be this obstinate and not be intentionally trolling.


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## Ashi (Mar 2, 2017)

Fang said:


> So what, Toriyama does the storyboards, drafting, supervision of scripts, and writing for the anime as well. So this relates to the manga superceding the anime how? Especially again when the anime is literally a promotional side-work according to Toei for the anime? Are you not getting this?



That just means that the anime gets more attention overall, who says Toriyama is in there makin changes when TOEI is infamous for filler and deviations?

Especially when the Manga is probably drawn ahead of time but released after the Anime, especially since the last trailer used Manga panels for promotional material.



> "Dragon Ball Super anime: story by Akira Toriyama".
> 
> Nope.
> 
> Actually sod it, on ignore you go, no one can be this obstinate and not be intentionally trolling.




Stay being a smug bitch, gotta save face when you're cornered, right?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Ashi (Mar 2, 2017)

So this is the OBD, instead of a constructive discussion you just silence all who disagree.


Maybe Krory was right about you guys having delicate sensibilities


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## Fang (Mar 2, 2017)

"It just means I can't provide a refutation for the fact that you have links and proof of the anime being more directly supervised and involved with Toriyama but blah blah muh Toyotaro's story is more important and canon because uh...I say so" riveting.

Really, you're done here.

>Edit:

>Krory fanboy too

Ayyyy lmao

Definitely a troll. Yep keeping this one on ignore.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Son Wukong (Mar 2, 2017)

Didn't Toriyama mention in an interview that Goku absorbed the god powers to himself and ergo doesn't need to go SSG again? Toyataro pretty much objected Toriyama and brought SSG back at the U6VsU7 tournament. The anime clearly takes the precedence over manga.


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## xenos5 (Mar 2, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> So this is the OBD, instead of a constructive discussion you just silence all who disagree.
> 
> 
> Maybe Krory was right about you guys having delicate sensibilities



Fang tried to have a constructive discussion with you. You stonewalled and refused to post evidence for more than half of the debate. When you finally did post evidence when others countered it and showed how it didn't actually help your argument but hurt it you refused to acknowledge the evidence was insufficient and stonewalled further. There's no point trying to debate someone who's purposely being intellectually dishonest.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ashi (Mar 2, 2017)

Fang said:


> "It just means I can't provide a refutation for the fact that you have links and proof of the anime being more directly supervised and involved with Toriyama but blah blah muh Toyotaro's story is more important and canon because uh...I say so" riveting.
> 
> Really, you're done here.
> 
> ...




You're going in circles, I gave you my proof of his involvement w/ the Manga


You bring me yours of his involvement in the anime or GTFO


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## Ashi (Mar 2, 2017)

Son Wukong said:


> Didn't Toriyama mention in an interview that Goku absorbed the god powers to himself and ergo doesn't need to go SSG again? Toyataro pretty much objected Toriyama and brought SSG back at the U6VsU7 tournament. The anime clearly takes the precedence over manga.




So then why didnt Toriyama stop it?


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## Ashi (Mar 2, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Fang tried to have a constructive discussion with you. You stonewalled and refused to post evidence for more than half of the debate. When you finally did post evidence when others countered it and showed how it didn't actually help your argument but hurt it you refused to acknowledge the evidence was insufficient and stonewalled further. There's no point trying to debate someone who's purposely being intellectually dishonest.




I posted my evidence tho? in both instances


If he fails to convince me then that's his problem

He was going in circles the entire time anyway so whatever


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## Divell (Mar 2, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> Are...are you getting this info from HST tards that know nothing about this series or something
> 
> I thought Ultimate Gohan being in BOG, both in the film and Super, is blatantly obvious
> 
> Maximum/full potential statements have always been a thing in DB. Elder Kai's potential unlock bringing out everything in him was retconned. Especially since Gohan's hyped to have the best potential in the series, and even Trunks can reach SSJB level


I have read the series myself. Gohan himself has said he didn't keep up with his training. And now he has to access to SSj to power up, when before he didn't had to/couldn't tranform as Mystic Gohan was a permanent form of him at the moment, SSj activated and everything. Trunks reached SSj Blue, but after being in multiple contacts with God Ki, like Vegeta.


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## Divell (Mar 2, 2017)

Kyouko said:


> it really is
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Remember they are all restricted as neither can't kill the other otherwise they would be disqualified. Piccolo had to use all of his techniques and even at the end, all Frost did was take the easy win. Even against Goku he didn't stood a chance even in his Ultimate form.

Mystic Gohan is his maximum potential being awaken. He hasn't reached it yet, when he is still needing to use SSj to transform.


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## Son Wukong (Mar 2, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> So then why didnt Toriyama stop it?



The manga was initially announced as an adaptation of the anime, and is still much further behind and even Toyorato has admitted to be receiving input from the anime staff but not actually much input from Toriyama. If anything, Toyataro seems to give more input to Akira Toriyama than vice-verse seeing how Toyataro helped in the design of 2/3rd of the Hakaishins.

Do you understand this?
Drop the conversation.


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## Ashi (Mar 2, 2017)

Son Wukong said:


> The manga was initially announced as an adaptation of the anime, and is still much further behind and even Toyorato has admitted to receiving input from the anime staff but not actually much input from Toriyama. If anything, Toyataro seems to give more input to Akira Toriyama than vice-verse seeing how Toyataro helped in the design of 2/3rd of the Hakaishins.
> 
> Do you understand this?
> Drop the conversation.



*sigh*

Both are simply adaptation of a draft written by Toriyama, sure they give eachother their 2 cents but that's ultimately all there is to it.


TOEI has a knack for adding filler as well as embellishing elements, yet somehow the forum manages to flip it on its head. Even tho we know that Toriyama has a lot of input in the Manga, so if there was element in the Anime that didn't make it in the manga, it's likely TOEI added it.


What TOEI adds that the Manga doesnt? Who tf knows


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## Son Wukong (Mar 2, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> I posted my evidence tho? in both instances
> 
> 
> If he fails to convince me then that's his problem
> ...



Except Fang did his job and proved how Toyataro modifies crucial arc elements to his liking which heavily differentiates from Toriyama's set rules. The burden of proof is still over you - Please prove that manga takes the precedence despite of all the contradictions.


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## Ashi (Mar 2, 2017)

Son Wukong said:


> E
> 
> 
> Except Fang did his job and proved how Toyataro modifies crucial arc elements to his liking which heavily differentiates from Toriyama's set rules. The burden of still over you - Please prove that manga takes the precedence despite of all the contradictions.



No he didn't, he talked in circles and skimmed over one piece that pretty much invalidates the claim the Toyatarou is the one adding(or in this case, removing) the filler


Toyatarou spoke about there being only words to follow, not missing plot points. So if anything, he's merely missing pieces of art direction.

Stay being hive minded tho.


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## Son Wukong (Mar 2, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> *sigh*
> 
> Both are simply adaptation of a draft written by Toriyama, sure they give eachother their 2 cents but that's ultimately all there is to it.
> 
> ...



TOEI adds filler, ofcourse- Its done in order to lengthen the episodes or provide a gap for arc transition. How does this deduct the anime's superiority? The filler has nothing to do with the actual plot points which is executed just as Toriyama wishes it to be.

Please retract to the interview quote.

"As far as the plot getting from A to B, that's written as Toriyama it lays down. But as far as the details between those plot points, I'm free to fill them in myself.""

Toyataro clearly admits that he modifies the details of plot points. And this modification has been as crucial as going against Toriyama's defined rules of the SSG transformation, which is only possible via ritual.

The evidence for the anime's superiority>>>>>your "evidence" for manga's superiority. You're simply providing dull headcannons and pegging them over factual evidence.


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## Gordo solos (Mar 2, 2017)

Divell said:


> I have read the series myself. Gohan himself has said he didn't keep up with his training. And now he has to access to SSj to power up, when before he didn't had to/couldn't tranform as Mystic Gohan was a permanent form of him at the moment, SSj activated and everything. Trunks reached SSj Blue, but after being in multiple contacts with God Ki, like Vegeta.


When he fought Beerus, he still had his full-potential unlocked. The BOG arc only took place a couple months after the Boo arc, and while all the other Saiyans transformed to fight Beerus, Gohan just powered up and went to fight him

DBS retconned the statement about him not using SSJ along with his Ultimate form


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## trance (Mar 2, 2017)

Divell said:


> Remember they are all restricted as neither can't kill the other otherwise they would be disqualified. Piccolo had to use all of his techniques and even at the end, all Frost did was take the easy win. Even against Goku he didn't stood a chance even in his Ultimate form.


 
Doesn't matter if killing was restricted. He could've simply lolnoped everything Piccolo threw at him and just KO'ed him if he was vastly superior...but he didn't because he wasn't



> Mystic Gohan is his maximum potential being awaken. He hasn't reached it yet, when he is still needing to use SSj to transform.


 
He can access it, tho

He did against Beerus and look where that got him

Let me make something clear; Buu Saga power levels are complete and utter garbage in Super. If Gohan was still weaker than his Buu Saga "mystic" form, Goku would've given him the same treatment purple Vegeta gave Gotenks. You think Champa would praise Gohan if he was still below his Buu Saga "mystic" form? You think Vegeta would say his potential surpasses his and his father's if his maximum is only his Buu Saga "mystic" form?


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## Ashi (Mar 2, 2017)

Son Wukong said:


> TOEI adds filler, ofcourse- Its done in order to lengthen the episodes or provide a gap for arc transition. How does this deduct the anime's superiority?



Filler is rarely done well, but you're obviously a TOEI sycophant that just nods their head yes to every decision they  make

Just filling up time isn't good writing... that's clear as day



> Please retract to the interview quote.
> 
> "As far as the plot getting from A to B, that's written as Toriyama it lays down. But as far as the details between those plot points, I'm free to fill them in myself.""




How is this proof that TOEI has any more details to work with? Toriyama's draft is probs the same to both the anime and the manga alike. 



> Toyataro clearly admits that he modifies the details of plot points. And this modification has been as crucial as going against Toriyama's defined rules of the SSG transformation, which is only possible via ritual.




You are that dense huh? TOEI and Toyatarou both work with the draft their given. That being said, we KNOW Toriyama approved of he changes of the Manga, not sure about the Anime

SSG being accessed via transformation is another way to interpret him having absorbed it's power, it doesn't go against the plot at all.


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## NightmareCinema (Mar 2, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> -Snipped for a whole lot of bitching and nothing of substance-
> 
> SSG being accessed via transformation is another way to interpret him having absorbed it's power, it doesn't go against the plot at all.



Except it does go against the plot.

Beerus stated in both the BoG movie and in Super that Goku absorbed the power into himself which is why he can still keep up even after losing the SSJG transformation.

TORIYAMA HIMSELF said in an interview that Goku absorbed the power into himself even without the transformation and that it powered up Goku's normal
SSJ transformations. 

Guess who the sole outlier for this particular plot point is? Toyotaro's manga.

"Doesn't deviate from plot points" huh, Toyotaro.


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## trance (Mar 2, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Beerus stated in both the BoG movie and in Super that Goku absorbed the power into himself which is why he can still keep up even after losing the SSJG transformation


 
just wanna add that he did this without even realizing what he did

so, this whole "Goku/Vegeta don't always have god ki in base form and have to access it" stuff that's being spouted off needs to stop

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ashi (Mar 2, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Except it does go against the plot.
> 
> Beerus stated in both the BoG movie and in Super that Goku absorbed the power into himself which is why he can still keep up even after losing the SSJG transformation.
> 
> ...



Toriyama approved it, tho so chances are it's what he would've wanted
'
It's not like Goku needs to see Krillin die everytime he wants to go ssj, same principle really.



Kyouko said:


> just wanna add that he did this without even realizing what he did
> 
> so, this whole "Goku/Vegeta don't always have god ki in base form and have to access it" stuff that's being spouted off needs to stop





SSJ was triggered by rage, but then they can do it via control now.  God Ki is probably the same principle


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## Son Wukong (Mar 2, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Filler is rarely done well, but you're obviously a TOEI sycophant that just nods their head yes to every decision they  make
> 
> You are that dense huh? TOEI and Toyatarou both work with the draft their given. That being said, we KNOW Toriyama *approved* of the changes of the Manga, not sure about the Anime
> 
> SSG being accessed via transformation is another way to interpret him having absorbed it's power, it doesn't go against the plot at all.



Jesus Christ, yes he did approve the changes because he's satisfied with them, not that its accurate. We know that Toriyama has constantly appreciated Toyataro on his character designs and his version of the portrayal of the plot points. This doesn't *CHANGE* the fact that it still, *INFACT goes against the established rules* -* The rules initially set by the author himself*. I reiterate for the final time, Toriyama implied in an interview that Goku absorbed the SSG powers to himself, which is why he was able to keep up with Beerus at the climax of their battle. This is further substantiated by Goku's description of SSB - "This is a Super Saiyan with the powers of a Super Saiyan God" On the contrary, the manga portrays Goku's baseline relatively weaker as his baseline isn't SSG level amped and has to undergo the transformation itself.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ashi (Mar 2, 2017)

Son Wukong said:


> Jesus Christ, yes he did approve the changes because he's satisfied with them. We know that Toriyama has constantly appreciated Toyataro on his character designs and his version of the portrayal of the plot plots. This doesn't *CHANGE* the fact that it still, *INFACT goes against the established rules* -* The rules initially set by the author himself*. I reiterate for the final time, Toriyama implied in an interview that Goku absorbed the SSG powers to himself, which is why he was able to keep up with Beerus at the climax of their battle. This is further substantiated by Goku's description of SSB - "This is a Super Saiyan with the powers of a Super Saiyan God" On the contrary, the manga portrays Goku's baseline relatively weaker as his baseline isn't SSG level amped and has to undergo the transformation itself.




It doesn't go against anything, it's a seperate interpretation.

You could say that it's God Ki Goku that's red instead of looking like base.


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## Ashi (Mar 2, 2017)

This isn't even an OBD thread... but in the DB section


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## Amae (Mar 2, 2017)

Isn't it past this guy's bed time?


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## Son Wukong (Mar 2, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> It doesn't go against anything, it's a seperate interpretation.
> 
> You could say that it's God Ki Goku that's red instead of looking like base.



So basically you have two sources.
Source 1 - Follows the word of god
Source 2 - Modifies the word of god

Yet you seem to pick the second source.
Oh c'mon man, you're better than that.


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## Ashi (Mar 2, 2017)

Son Wukong said:


> So basically you have two sources.
> Source 1 - Follows the word of god
> Source 2 - Modifies the word of god
> 
> ...



....

*sigh*

Flipping it on it's head... as usual.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 2, 2017)

Dragon ball SUper is trash who cares which one is canon

Reactions: Funny 2 | Disagree 4 | Dislike 1


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## Son Wukong (Mar 2, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> ....
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> Flipping it on it's head... as usual.



Its alright man, I accept your concession.


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## trance (Mar 2, 2017)

DBS is better than OP


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## Son Wukong (Mar 2, 2017)

Kyouko said:


> DBS is better than OP


Inb4 OP fans triggered


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## NightmareCinema (Mar 2, 2017)

>Manga doesn't have filler
>Has a chapter dedicated to Super DB Kart

Totally no filler.

Not to mention that the so-called "filler" in the anime gets mentioned in future events as well and keeps in continuity with other events as well.

The starry liquid that Bulma was experimenting with during the Potafeau arc was fuel for the Time Machine which comes in handy during the Future Trunks arc.

Goku noted that he now knows how Vegeta felt when Goku was fighting against Copy-Vegeta during the Potafeau arc.

The Goku vs. Hit 2-parter was a callback to the U6 arc.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Gordo solos (Mar 2, 2017)

The fact the anime made Goku and Vegeta fuse into Vegetto (unlike a certain other anime making them fuse into Gogeta) should also tell you how canon it is


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## Ashi (Mar 2, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> >Manga doesn't have filler
> >Has a chapter dedicated to Super DB Kart
> 
> Totally no filler.
> ...





Your straw grasping is fucking unreal dude, in both versions Trunks takes a breather after returning to the future.

And if Toriyama didnt write it down, it's filler. TOEI doesn't write Super, Toriyama does

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Clutch (Mar 2, 2017)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> you seriously can't argue one is more canon than the other, based on the totality of evidence. There is enough evidence on both sides.


I disagree, slightly. There is NO evidence on either side. Just fan interpretations of vague author comments. I do agree that it comes down to preference, as we discussed before, Dragon Ball has no canon as far as Toriyama is concerned.

I'd be scared to ask the man if GT was canon, he'd probably say yes. He did come out and say the films are in a different dimension, so I give him credit for that. He also said, in an interview Herms posted on twitter, that he wished for Toyataro to be more involved with the anime, obviously because he is closer to Toyataro.


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## Blade (Mar 2, 2017)

filthy NINGENS, everywhere :zamasustare

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Perpetrator Rex (Mar 2, 2017)

ColumbianDrugLord said:


> I disagree, slightly. There is NO evidence on either side. Just fan interpretations of vague author comments. I do agree that it comes down to preference, as we discussed before, Dragon Ball has no canon as far as Toriyama is concerned.
> 
> I'd be scared to ask the man if GT was canon, he'd probably say yes. He did come out and say the films are in a different dimension, so I give him credit for that. He also said, in an interview Herms posted on twitter, that he wished for Toyataro to be more involved with the anime, obviously because he is closer to Toyataro.


My motto with Dragon Ball, specifically; if it is not *clearly* stated or shown, it's fandom. _Reasonably assumed _shit keeps getting overturned and that Vegito fusion was the last straw. 

Canon has never officially been discussed, so it's up in the air.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 3


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## NightmareCinema (Mar 2, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Your straw grasping is fucking unreal dude, in both versions Trunks takes a breather after returning to the future.
> 
> And if Toriyama didnt write it down, it's filler. TOEI doesn't write Super, Toriyama does



>Straw-grasping
>"B-BUT MUH MANGA! IF THEY WON'T ACCEPT IT I'LL JUST STONEWALL! THAT'LL SHOW DUH OH-BEE-DEE HIVEMIND!!!!!1!!!!1!!"

Anime's the main canon. Deal with it. Even your lord and savior Toyotaro said that he also gets directions from Toei so topkek.




Blade said:


> filthy NINGENS, everywhere :zamasustare



Zamasu was right all along. He should've exterminated all of them, brah.

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


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## Gordo solos (Mar 2, 2017)

Blade said:


> filthy NINGENS, everywhere :zamasustare

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ashi (Mar 2, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> >Straw-grasping
> >"B-BUT MUH MANGA! IF THEY WON'T ACCEPT IT I'LL JUST STONEWALL! THAT'LL SHOW DUH OH-BEE-DEE HIVEMIND!!!!!1!!!!1!!"
> 
> Anime's the main canon. Deal with it. Even your lord and savior Toyotaro said that he also gets directions from Toei so topkek.
> ...


 
Literally just one big autistic ad hominem but whatever you say

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 5


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## Clutch (Mar 2, 2017)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> My motto with Dragon Ball, specifically; if it is not *clearly* stated or shown, it's fandom. _Reasonably assumed _shit keeps getting overturned and that Vegito fusion was the last straw.
> 
> Canon has never officially been discussed, so it's up in the air.


As we discussed some time ago, I don't think Toriyama or even Toei for that matter, ever really cared about this sort of thing so it never actually mattered. It still doesn't matter, so unlike most fictional properties, what is and isn't just isn't clear. I largely agree on this front. 

Assumptions on the part of fans in the Dragon Ball community are largely just that, assumptions. That said, Toriyama has muddied the waters himself with his own statements.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 2


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## Fang (Mar 2, 2017)

Irrelevant, the anime takes precedence given the manga is side-work to the anime itself. As it stands, nothing is changing our current default assumption the anime is the primary canon for DBS.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Perpetrator Rex (Mar 2, 2017)

ColumbianDrugLord said:


> As we discussed some time ago, I don't think Toriyama or even Toei for that matter, ever really cared about this sort of thing so it never actually mattered. It still doesn't matter, so unlike most fictional properties, what is and isn't just isn't clear. I largely agree on this front.
> 
> Assumptions on the part of fans in the Dragon Ball community are largely just that, assumptions. T*hat said, Toriyama has muddied the waters himself with his own statements.*


Bingo. _*Chris Sabat voice*
_
Cuz again, dude doesn't care. The way Tori feels about Dragon Ball is probably how Hank Ketchum feels about Dennis Menace. LOL This shit ain't that deep.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Clutch (Mar 2, 2017)

Many say Mr.Toriyama is quite machiavellian. He made the series childishly simply in just the right ways so that when you analyze it all, you will get his true, deeper message. NWO!

He's in the Illuminati


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## AgentAAA (Mar 2, 2017)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> So you think TOEI writes Super then, correct? The Arale special was canon to u? As well as the baseball episode?


it's not canon "to anyone".
It's just canon.
Arale's special as well as the baseball episode should be canon - Toriyama loves adding a bit of silliness in his manga every chance he gets. See: Every other manga he's done, along with the buu arc.
Why are you so certain it's due to Toei fucking up, or something? Tori has a lot of control, few people are really willing to contradict him at this point, and neither of those things are things Toriyama would not enjoy writing himself.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blocky (Mar 2, 2017)

Why are you guys even talking about canon again?

Go make a meta-thread if you guys wanna talk it out that much


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## Divell (Mar 3, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> When he fought Beerus, he still had his full-potential unlocked. The BOG arc only took place a couple months after the Boo arc, and while all the other Saiyans transformed to fight Beerus, Gohan just powered up and went to fight him
> 
> DBS retconned the statement about him not using SSJ along with his Ultimate form


No he didn't. Remember, Gohan himself admitted to had weakened for lack of training, just a few months later.

DBS hasn't retconned it yet. Not statements has been made.



Kyouko said:


> Doesn't matter if killing was restricted. He could've simply lolnoped everything Piccolo threw at him and just KO'ed him if he was vastly superior...but he didn't because he wasn't


In order to not kill Piccolo, he needed to restrict himself, and he was indeed vastly superior as he had Piccolo cornered all day long.




> He can access it, tho


When he reaches again said potential, yes.



> He did against Beerus and look where that got him


Did what against Beerus.



> Let me make something clear; Buu Saga power levels are complete and utter garbage in Super. If Gohan was still weaker than his Buu Saga "mystic" form, Goku would've given him the same treatment purple Vegeta gave Gotenks. You think Champa would praise Gohan if he was still below his Buu Saga "mystic" form? You think Vegeta would say his potential surpasses his and his father's if his maximum is only his Buu Saga "mystic" form?


I'm sorry, did you even check 2 chapters ago? Fat Buu, literally the weakest version of the Buu, was able to trash one of the wolf. Gohan, was able to barely hold his own against another of the group. And in case you forgot, 

Mystic Gohan.
Buutenks.
Buucolo.
Evil Buu.
Slim Buu.
Fat Buu.
Current Gohan, is barely only barely superior to Fat Buu. And that's being generous. Gohan, in the intro was even see, showcasing the Mystic power again. Meaning in this saga, he will obtain once again such power. But until then, he is still not on the same lv yet.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Fang (Mar 3, 2017)

>current Gohan "barely" superior to Buu

That's why Buu had a harder team with the weakest brother while Gohan was more then a match for the middle brother in his base form right, the same brother whose much stronger then Basil? Talk about being willfully wrong.

Also why does this guy keep using "Mystic" which is literally a made up fanon term? Chou Gohan is literally either translated from Japanese in the Buu Saga after the Elder Kaioshin unlocks his final power as "Super" Gohan or "Ultimate" Gohan.


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## SSBMonado (Mar 3, 2017)

It's clear that Gohan was going very slow against Lavender at the start of the fight.
After getting blinded and poisoned, he managed to react to a bloodlusted kick from Lavender, which he only noticed after it already _touched his hair_
Speed scales linearly with all other stats in DB, so that alone shows the difference between current Gohan and Levender. Add 2 stages of SS on top of that and Buu is getting fodderized

And yeah, it seems the implications are compounding that we've been underselling Buu saga characters. 
- a Cell tier character like Trunks catching up to god tiers very quickly
- Piccolo being relevant against an opponent post-god-ki base Goku couldn't beat
- Gohan sparring with SS Goku
- Basil and Lavender still being considered among the strongest U9 fighters even though the eldest brother will be putting up a fight against Goku


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## trance (Mar 3, 2017)

Divell said:


> In order to not kill Piccolo, he needed to restrict himself, and he was indeed vastly superior as he had Piccolo cornered all day long.


 
>couldn't break out of Piccolo's grasp
>had to resort to poison to win
>vastly superior to Piccolo





> When he reaches again said potential, yes.
> 
> Did what against Beerus.


 
Gohan used his ultimate form against Beerus...and got floored

again, to reiterate, Buu Saga power levels are complete and utter garbage in Super



> I'm sorry, did you even check 2 chapters ago? Fat Buu, literally the weakest version of the Buu, was able to trash one of the wolf. Gohan, was able to barely hold his own against another of the group. And in case you forgot,


 
lel

Gohan had Lavenda outclassed from the start...the latter only remained in the game because of his lelpoison. Then, when Gohan adjusts to the shitty situation he's in, he goes on to casually block and/or parry Lavender's attacks



> Mystic Gohan.
> Buutenks.
> Buucolo.
> Evil Buu.
> ...


This is also wrong. Buutenks was smacking Gohan around like a punching bag

Also, wtf is "Slim Buu"



> Current Gohan, is barely only barely superior to Fat Buu. And that's being generous. Gohan, in the intro was even see, showcasing the Mystic power again. Meaning in this saga, he will obtain once again such power. But until then, he is still not on the same lv yet.


 
If he was only barely superior to fat Buu, he wouldn't be able to go toe to toe against a god ki mastered SSJ Goku or gain praise from a Hakaishin or have his potential cited as _still _surpassing Goku's and Vegeta's. Why? *Because Buu Saga power levels are complete weaklings compared to Super god tiers*

We were literally shown this in the first arc...and again in the form of SSJ3 Gotenks vs. Purple Vegeta


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## Juub (Mar 3, 2017)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> Bingo. _*Chris Sabat voice*
> _
> Cuz again, dude doesn't care. The way Tori feels about Dragon Ball is probably how Hank Ketchum feels about Dennis Menace. LOL This shit ain't that deep.


I honestly thought Hank Ketchum was Ash Ketchum's dad and you were about to say the way Toriyama feels about DBS is the way Hank Ketchum feels about Ash Ketchum cause he doesn't give a darn about him.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Mar 3, 2017)

Gohan sparring with Goku doesn't mean anything, that's why is a sparring.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Claudio Swiss (Mar 3, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Gohan sparring with Goku doesn't mean anything, that's why is a sparring.


Gohan was able To trade blows with goku and even got a good hit on him gohan even told goku not it hold back.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Mar 3, 2017)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Gohan was able To trade blows with goku and even got a good hit on him gohan even told goku not it hold back.



But is not a serious fight, the effort they seem to make isn't all that telling do to how ki works.

Like every single time someone seemed to be on equal grounds with someone until   "ok now im serious" or " he can't win"

Even if Gohan was as strong as Goku he would still get wrecked in a real fight do to the diference in skill, like Goku predicting Hit timeskip in order to counter it at the start of their fight.

I would put it as Goku leveling himself with Gohan more than anything else, he would still have fun doing it and Gohan would get benefits either way.


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## NightmareCinema (Mar 3, 2017)

>Made Goku feel that palm strike
>Told his dad not to hold back
>Goku admits that he got carried away after Chi-Chi stops the match
>Doesn't mean anything

Ha, you wish it didn't mean anything.


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## Claudio Swiss (Mar 3, 2017)

Goku even mention gohan was impressive
Also to note in the later episodes goku was able to dodge and later deflect a ki blast from whis.
Edit:


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## SSBMonado (Mar 3, 2017)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Also to note in the later episodes goku was able to dodge and later deflect a ki blast from whis.
> Edit:


Ok, now THAT is something that doesn't mean anything. There's no way in hell Whis was being serious in that fight. That ki blast was strong enough to force Goku to go super, but that is all you can infer from it.


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## NightmareCinema (Mar 3, 2017)

An extremely casual Whis was trouncing both post-God Ki Goku and Vegeta back in the RoF arc.

Goku deflecting a blast like that from Whis several arcs later, even if it was a held back blast, and in his normal Super Saiyan transformation as well, is still pretty damn impressive.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Gordo solos (Mar 3, 2017)

Divell said:


> No he didn't. Remember, Gohan himself admitted to had weakened for lack of training, just a few months later.
> 
> DBS hasn't retconned it yet. Not statements has been made.
> 
> ...


I don't know why you're so convinced it wasn't Ultimate Gohan that fought against Beerus. A few months of slacking off doesn't mean he got that much weaker (it usually takes years for that to happen with Gohan ). All the Saiyans transformed against him and Piccolo was awe-struck that Gohan lost, he didn't say anything like that for Boo

Also Bootenks is stronger than Gohan

Literally all the intros had Gohan powering up in his Ultimate form


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## NightmareCinema (Mar 3, 2017)

Adding on to my above point about Goku deflecting Whis' blast: that was from Episode 77. Goku explicitly says that he's been getting rusty because of the lack of a good fight the past few months which is why he decided to visit Beerus and Whis in the first place.

In comparison, Gohan fought an in-shape Goku in Episode 75.

So yeah.


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## Claudio Swiss (Mar 3, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> An extremely casual Whis was trouncing both post-God Ki Goku and Vegeta back in the RoF arc.
> 
> Goku deflecting a blast like that from Whis several arcs later, even if it was a held back blast, and in his normal Super Saiyan transformation as well, is still pretty damn impressive.


Thank you for proving my point also let's do a compare and contrast.
While at the start of the bog arc goku couldn't do Jack shit to him


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## Fang (Mar 3, 2017)

To be fair, Ultimate Gohan was somewhat holding out if losing against Super Buu (Gotenks).


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## Gordo solos (Mar 3, 2017)

Fang said:


> To be fair, Ultimate Gohan was somewhat holding out if losing against Super Buu (Gotenks).


He had some nice showings like breaking out of Buu's bubblegum thing and dodging his attack from point-blank range, so that's true

Overall though I don't remember Gohan actually damaging him


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## Fang (Mar 3, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> He had some nice showings like breaking out of Buu's bubblegum thing and dodging his attack from point-blank range, so that's true
> 
> Overall though I don't remember Gohan actually damaging him



They were landing blows evenly on each other, flying kicks, matching Ki blasts, punches, speed, etc...It wasn't until he constrained Gohan and started wailing on him that the fight started to swing in Buu's favor.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## KaiserWombat (Mar 3, 2017)

wait a minute

this is most definitely in the wrong section

oh well, no biggie, just need to redire-

> 5 pages long
> posted on Monday

...

...

...

f
u
c​f u c k c u f
c
u
f​
Because this is _*not*_ the first time this has happened in here in recent weeks: please, stop being assholes and posting Dragon Ball-only threads in the OBD. Go to the fucking Dragon Ball section instead like a normal person and annoy those people with these scenarios

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4


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## Sablés (Mar 3, 2017)

lock it


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 3, 2017)

Sablés said:


> lock it


pop it!


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 3, 2017)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> pop it!


twist it!


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## Juub (Mar 3, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> He had some nice showings like breaking out of Buu's bubblegum thing and dodging his attack from point-blank range, so that's true
> 
> Overall though I don't remember Gohan actually damaging him


We accept fillers?


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## Crimson Dragoon (Mar 3, 2017)

Juub said:


> We accept fillers?



not really

just to note, even in the anime, Gohan was only really even with Bootenks when both were holding back

when both got serious, it went pretty much exactly like the manga did


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## God Movement (Mar 3, 2017)

KaiserWombat said:


> wait a minute
> 
> this is most definitely in the wrong section
> 
> ...



I would agree, but posting it in the OBD honestly gives a lot of these fights a lot of different input and better analysis. It would be cool if there was a way for the same thread to simultaneously exist in both sections.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gordo solos (Mar 3, 2017)

Juub said:


> We accept fillers?


?

It was in the manga


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## Juub (Mar 3, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> ?
> 
> It was in the manga


Gohan got wrecked by Buutenks in the manga. Didn't land one clean hit on him.

I thought you meant him holding his own. He didn't do well at all in the manga.


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## Gordo solos (Mar 3, 2017)

Juub said:


> Gohan got wrecked by Buutenks in the manga. Didn't land one clean hit on him.
> 
> I thought you meant him holding his own. He didn't do well at all in the manga.


I meant being able to break out of Buu's bubblegum constraint and reacting to his Kamehameha


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## Fang (Mar 3, 2017)

There's also that blast going through both sides of the Earth. But yeah in the manga Gohan breaks out of the Ki technique holding him down and still dodges Super Buu (Gotenks) Ki attack at close range.


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## Gordo solos (Mar 3, 2017)

Oh shit it was Gotenks' move he used on Gohan 

I mixed it up with the move Fat Boo used on Vegeta


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Mar 4, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> >Made Goku feel that palm strike
> >Told his dad not to hold back
> >Goku admits that he got carried away after Chi-Chi stops the match
> >Doesn't mean anything
> ...



Goku fought Cell and Beers on seemingly equal grounds and we know he wasn't on their level, same thing happened when Trunks came back he pushed Goku to use SS3 even thoug he wasn't god level until after his training with Vegeta. 

Sparrings aren't serious fights.


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## Akira1993 (Mar 4, 2017)

Going with Vegito, Gohan is still not reading IMO.


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