# Itachi vs. Kabuto (with a slight twist)



## Nikushimi (Jun 29, 2013)

*Location:* Kabuto's Cave
*Distance:* Itachi just burst through the wall, a la the manga.
*Knowledge:* Full
*Mindset:* In-character; Itachi is allowed to kill/seal Kabuto this time.
*Conditions/Restrictions:*
-Itachi is alive, but assume his health and eyesight are restored so that he is basically in the same condition as his Edo Tensei self (minus infinite chakra + regen).
-Kabuto starts in Sage Mode with his eyes protected by the anti-Genjutsu brille.
-Kabuto may NOT use any of the powers he assimilated from other shinobi.  What this means is, he only has Sage Mode, Hakugeki, and Muki Tensei, plus his base arsenal. *No Taka powers, no Orochimaru powers, no Sound 4 powers, no Edo Tensei.* For the sake of argument, assume he can maintain Sage Mode indefinitely, even without Jugo's ability.


So who takes it under these restrictions?


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## trance (Jun 29, 2013)

Wasn't Kabuto overpowering them without the assimilated abilities or at least fighting on par?


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## Nikushimi (Jun 29, 2013)

Trance said:


> Wasn't Kabuto overpowering them without the assimilated abilities or at least fighting on par?



It's hard to answer that without at least some explanation of what you're referring to.

Itachi endured Hakugeki and could've defended Sasuke from Muki Tensei (at the cost of protecting himself); I don't know if you would call that "overpowering" or "fighting on par," but it's definitely not the same as actually beating them.


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## trance (Jun 29, 2013)

I have to go back and reread the fight then. Some parts are a bit fuzzy.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 29, 2013)

I don't blame you; that shit almost put me to sleep, even with Itachi participating.


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## Chad (Jun 29, 2013)

Itachi only endured Hakugeki because he was an edo tensei and could not feel the heavy vibrations.


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## Ghost (Jun 29, 2013)

Bluenote said:


> Itachi only endured Hakugeki because he was an edo tensei and could not feel the heavy vibrations.


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## Kai (Jun 29, 2013)

I was going to suggest Hakugeki as an almost immediate game ender in Kabuto's favor, but without Taka/Orochimaru's powers, he'll easily be just as affected by the light and vibrations (no Suigetsu).

Without Hakugeki and assimilated powers, Kabuto can't win. Itachi can react to Muki Tensei with Susano'o now that he doesn't have to dull his reactions in protecting Sasuke, and then proceed to fry Kabuto's standard body having zero modifications with Amaterasu.

How is Kabuto supposed to survive against the Mangekyo at the very least without Orochimaru's snake powers?


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## KeyofMiracles (Jun 29, 2013)

Itachi definitely takes this, no questions asked. The two main things that led me to have Kabuto beat Itachi were his Mugen Onsa and Hakugeki.

-Without Suigetsu's abilities, Kabuto will be affected by Hakugeki as much as Itachi would be so he wouldn't be able to do anything due to the vibrations so that's out.
-Mugen Onsa is restricted.

Without Orochimaru's powers, Itachi could take him out with an Amaterasu.


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## Turrin (Jun 29, 2013)

First off I strongly disagree with people saying Itachi would win this with Amaterasu. Kabuto would sense Itachi is going to use Amaterasu and than simply attack Itachi interrupting the Jutsu or block LOS.

With that out of the way lol Niku, of course Itachi wins in this scenario you've essentially taken all of Kabuto's abilities from him and left him with SM, chakra scalpels, and Muki Tensei which is not all that good in this location against Amaterasu. The best Kabuto can do here is just aim dodge with SM sensing as long as possible, but it's highly highly unlikely he could do so long enough to outlast Itachi. 

So yeah one-sided thread is one-sided. Now I'm not sure it would be one-sided in the manga, because Kabuto may have other Jutsu all his own that when combined with SM could still be a problem, but from current knowledge it certainly is.


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## IchLiebe (Jun 29, 2013)

Chakra scapel>Susanoo
see the color of chakra
see the color of chakra

Hakugeki to paralyze and drop Susanoo, followed by Muki Tensei to kill.


Muki Tensei Itachi can not evade nor protect against. Sasuke wasn't even being targeted so either thats shows he is stupid or dumb.


Kabuto takes this easily, hes' to fast for Itachi, to smart and counters everything thanks to sage sensing.

He still has snakes though and the powers learned from Oro, he just doesn't have Orochimaru's body that he used. But things like Oral rebirth and stuff should not be taken from him as he learned to jutsu and not just incorporated into his body like Suigetsu's power.

Plus Amaterasu hitting Kabuto....lol

What about Manda II thats exclusively his own summon as Sasuke couldn't summon him.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 29, 2013)

Bluenote said:


> Itachi only endured Hakugeki because he was an edo tensei and could not feel the heavy vibrations.



Are you SSM12's dupe?

Because Itachi was very clearly feeling the vibrations:

see the color of chakra

He was even covering his ears.

SSM12 is the only one I have ever known of who remains in complete denial of this, which is why I gotta ask if you're not him.


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## Baroxio (Jun 29, 2013)

The restrictions placed upon kabuto are unnecessary. All Itachi needs to beat him is full knowledge for both or no knowledge for both.

I posted my reasoning in an earlier Kabuto v Itachi thread:



Baroxio said:


> joshhookway said:
> 
> 
> > How Does itachi deal with Kayuyu though?
> ...


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## IchLiebe (Jun 29, 2013)

^Why didn't Sasuke react to it, cause he couldn't

Edo's don't feel pain, dead bodies don't feel pain. The vibrations fucked him up but he wasn't feeling pain.

There was an alive and dead Uchiha, the alive Uchiha couldn't react, the dead could now I wonder why as Itachi was shown not to handle injuries that well. Amaterasu bout killed him against Sasuke, still dropped Susanoo and creates an opening for a second of which Kabuto can do many attack to end it, even through a chakra scalpel.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 29, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Chakra scapel>Susanoo
> see the color of chakra
> see the color of chakra



I know you're not this stupid.

Itachi deactivated Susano'o and THEN Kabuto hit him with the chakra scalpel.

Which isn't going to happen because Kabuto can't use Orochimaru's Jutsu (including Oral Rebirth) here.



> Hakugeki to paralyze and drop Susanoo,



Does not work on Itachi completely:

see the color of chakra



> followed by Muki Tensei to kill.



Itachi has full knowledge and knows the Jutsu can be negated with heat.

He also demonstrated the ability to react to the Jutsu already:

see the color of chakra

But you knew that.



> Muki Tensei Itachi can not evade nor protect against. Sasuke wasn't even being targeted so either thats shows he is stupid or dumb.



No, it shows he was protective of Sasuke. He did not know Kabuto wouldn't target Sasuke and he knew he could regenerate thanks to Edo Tensei, so it wasn't a risk he was willing to take to protect his brother.

If Itachi wanted to, he could've just protected himself with Susano'o. And he doesn't have to worry about Sasuke now because Sasuke isn't here, so there goes that excuse.



> Kabuto takes this easily, hes' to fast for Itachi,



Which is why Itachi kept pace with him:

see the color of chakra



> to smart



Which is completely baseless and countered by the fact that Itachi could even anticipate his moves to some extent:

see the color of chakra

see the color of chakra

Kabuto even thought he had the ability to sense chakra because of this:

see the color of chakra



> and counters everything thanks to sage sensing.



Sage sensing did not counter Susano'o:

see the color of chakra

And just because it is difficult for Itachi to hit him does not mean it's impossible; it is also difficult for Kabuto to hit Itachi with Susano'o constantly getting in the way and Itachi being about as fast as him.



> He still has snakes though and the powers learned from Oro, he just doesn't have Orochimaru's body that he used. But things like Oral rebirth and stuff should not be taken from him as he learned to jutsu and not just incorporated into his body like Suigetsu's power.



Like Sasuke trained for them? No. He assimilated those Jutsu when he took in Orochimaru's DNA, like Sasuke did.

And for the purposes of this thread, I'm dictating that he doesn't have them. End of discussion.



> Plus Amaterasu hitting Kabuto....lol



What's "lol" about it?

Other than you acting like an ignorant dingus when we all know you are just here to denigrate Itachi like you always do.

You're not fooling anyone and the truly sad thing is that you might actually be convincing newer members that you're an idiot or just someone who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

But we both know better than that, don't we?


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## Nikushimi (Jun 29, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> ^Why didn't Sasuke react to it, cause he couldn't



Itachi isn't Sasuke.



> Edo's don't feel pain, dead bodies don't feel pain.



I'm sure you (don't) have proof of this.



> The vibrations fucked him up but he wasn't feeling pain.



That very visibly isn't true, based on his facial expression.

There are numerous instances where Edo Tensei can be seen or heard in what looks like pain, including one instance where Sasori is pulled down on top of Deidara by Kankuro's chakra strings and the latter cries out in what is unmistakably pain.

Then you have Hanzou gutting himself like the Dish of the Day and making a constipated face while he's doing it.



> There was an alive and dead Uchiha, the alive Uchiha couldn't react, the dead could now I wonder why



Probably because Itachi is just better able to handle it than Sasuke.

Of course if you have actual evidence that it's because of Edo Tensei and not just conjecture, feel free to present it for my consideration.



> as Itachi was shown not to handle injuries that well.



I don't even know what the fuck this is and I haven't the inclination to ask because I know it'll only lead to something awful.

So I'll just say "No" and submit this for your approval:

see the color of chakra



> Amaterasu bout killed him against Sasuke, still dropped Susanoo and creates an opening for a second of which Kabuto can do many attack to end it, even through a chakra scalpel.



Kabuto would have to actually avoid the Amaterasu before being able to do anything to Itachi.

Just like Sasuke.


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## IchLiebe (Jun 29, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I know you're not this stupid.
> 
> Itachi deactivated Susano'o and THEN Kabuto hit him with the chakra scalpel.


 Nope first panel he had Susanoo active, next panel he was in half. Why would he deactivate Susanoo? Chakra? There is no reason or proof he deactivated Susanoo.





> Which isn't going to happen because Kabuto can't use Orochimaru's Jutsu (including Oral Rebirth) here.


 And Sasuke was capable of Oral Rebirth, but it doesn't matter thanks to sage sensing and Kabuto's own great healing abilities.





> Does not work on Itachi completely:
> 
> Link removed


Link removed Gets paralyzed

Link removed Still paralyzed
Link removed Still paralyzed.

So it works pretty well.





> Itachi has full knowledge and knows the Jutsu can be negated with heat.
> 
> He also demonstrated the ability to react to the Jutsu already:
> 
> ...


 Hakugeki +Muki Tensei will end the fight as i have said. Nothing you have said changes that.





> No, it shows he was protective of Sasuke. He did not know Kabuto wouldn't target Sasuke and he knew he could regenerate thanks to Edo Tensei, so it wasn't a risk he was willing to take to protect his brother.


 Actually he did know Kabuto wouldn't target Sasuke with deadly force.
Link removed
And it was still a fatal blow, even though he was ET he was still vulnerable to being overwritten by a tag.





> If Itachi wanted to, he could've just protected himself with Susano'o. And he doesn't have to worry about Sasuke now because Sasuke isn't here, so there goes that excuse.


 And we don't know how Susanoo would've protected Itachi, it didn't protect Sasuke as Sasuke was in no danger as Kabuto and Itachi both said. Also even Susanoo is vulnerable to muki tensei as the ground below Susanoo is still open.


> Which is why Itachi kept pace with him:
> 
> Link removed


 Oh really.

Link removed
Link removed

And look at the distance that Kabuto closed
Link removed
Link removed

This is where it gets good
Senses the sword and blocks it, so kunai are useless as well
Link removed

Susanoo hand encircling Kabuto not even a foot away


Link removed

Did Itachi just try a blitz?

Link removed

Holy Shit Kabuto got through Susanoo yet again
Link removed

Look at his jutsu speed, he was able to counter a point blank in the face katon
Link removed

Link removed





> Which is completely baseless and countered by the fact that Itachi could even anticipate his moves to some extent:


 ITachi didn't anticipate shit, he reacted after the fact but Kabuto clearly showed he was superior land multiple fatal blows in a small time frame whereas Itachi landed none.





> Link removed
> 
> Link removed
> 
> Kabuto even thought he had the ability to sense chakra because of this:


 Thank you, you just yourself said Itachi knew Kabuto wouldn't harm Sasuke was trying to consume Sasuke.





> Sage sensing did not counter Susano'o:
> 
> Link removed
> 
> And just because it is difficult for Itachi to hit him does not mean it's impossible; it is also difficult for Kabuto to hit Itachi with Susano'o constantly getting in the way and Itachi being about as fast as him.


 No but when did Susanoo hit Kabuto? Arrows? Magatama? Trying to grab the real Kabuto that wasn't a foot away from an enclosed hand. Susanoo was always in the way yet Kabuto got around it multiple time, Hakugeki, Chakra scalpel, a fucking non-chakra infused sword....Do I need to continue?





> Like Sasuke trained for them? No. He assimilated those Jutsu when he took in Orochimaru's DNA, like Sasuke did.
> And for the purposes of this thread, I'm dictating that he doesn't have them. End of discussion.


 You can't take away the snakes that he has. He's been to the dragon cave, the place of snakes that Orochimaru hadn't been to. Kabuto is a better snake master than Orochimaru fact. Manda II is still allowed as that is exclusively Kabuto's summon as Sasuke couldn't summon him. Also funny how Sasuke without Orochimaru's DNA can still summon snakes. Ill take away Juugo, Karin, and Suigetsu's but not the snakes, and Ill take away oral rebirth.





> What's "lol" about it?


 Amaterasu hitting Kabuto, hell even Sasuke was dodging before Itachi cast it, I highly doubt someone leagues above Sasuke in sensing and speed will get hit, he also has doton techs and can hide underground and as I showed has great jutsu execution speed....thats whats funny.





> Other than you acting like an ignorant dingus when we all know you are just here to denigrate Itachi like you always do.


 And all you do is hype him up and try to cherry pick the manga whereas the entire Kabuto fight clearly showed he was a tier above the brothers, 2 tiers alone.





> You're not fooling anyone and the truly sad thing is that you might actually be convincing newer members that you're an idiot or just someone who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.


 Or I am showing them the pathetic attempts that Itachi fans use to try a solidify their character as a top tier when he clearly isn't. The manga clearly depicts what I have said and proven.





> But we both know better than that, don't we?


I don't know about you.


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## IchLiebe (Jun 29, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi isn't Sasuke.


 Same MS techs, Sasuke is better as he has range and chakra capacity needed to continuously use MS.





> I'm sure you (don't) have proof of this.


 Ive never seen an Edo cry out in pain, do you have proof dead people feel pain.





> That very visibly isn't true, based on his facial expression.
> 
> There are numerous instances where Edo Tensei can be seen or heard in what looks like pain, including one instance where Sasori is pulled down on top of Deidara by Kankuro's chakra strings and the latter cries out in what is unmistakably pain.
> 
> Then you have Hanzou gutting himself like the Dish of the Day and making a constipated face while he's doing it.


 So when Itachi was getting cut in half, sword through his gut, arm being ripped off. He was just suppressing his natural instinct to cry out in pain.....no. And those were much more grievous injuries then falling on someone, Hanzou could've been straining to cut through armor and body. And you strain when your constipated not take a tab.





> Probably because Itachi is just better able to handle it than Sasuke.
> 
> Of course if you have actual evidence that it's because of Edo Tensei and not just conjecture, feel free to present it for my consideration.


 I have provided evidence that an alive person feels more effects from Hakugeki as a dead person was the only one able to react to it wheras the alive person wasn't able to do anything....at all.





> I don't even know what the fuck this is and I haven't the inclination to ask because I know it'll only lead to something awful.
> 
> So I'll just say "No" and submit this for your approval:
> 
> Link removed


 Approval denied. As I have said before alive Itachi only ever used Susanoo for 1 minute tops. And that just shows that Edo's don't feel pain as Itachi spammed Susanoo more than he did when he was alive, and showed no obvious drawbacks from MS as he did when he was alive.





> Kabuto would have to actually avoid the Amaterasu before being able to do anything to Itachi.


 With his jutsu speed and base speed that is easy, all he has to do is doton:hiding like a mole, then pop up under Susanoo with a chakra scalpel or just bite Itachi's arm off...GG, Itachi wouldn't be able to dodge due to the grievous drawback MS has on him.





> Just like Sasuke.


Nope, Sasuke had to get hit then recover and fire back cause he didn't have the necessary jutsu to escape its path, Sasuke could've chidori through the roof but he is dumb.


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## IchLiebe (Jun 29, 2013)

Link removed  With his fucking head band.


After re-reading this fight I have concluded that Kabuto uses dirty tricks and tactics and is smarter than anyone else.


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## Chad (Jun 29, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Are you SSM12's dupe?
> 
> Because Itachi was very clearly feeling the vibrations:
> 
> ...



Since when does covering your ears mean that you feel a bunch of vibrations? It just means it's really loud.

As Sasuke says, the *vibrations* cause the bones to vibrate against the flesh. that is the pain. Does Edo Itachi have bones? No. Does Living Itachi have bones? Yes.


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## Baroxio (Jun 29, 2013)

^ 


I just don't even. 

0/10. Bad troll is bad.


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## joshhookway (Jun 29, 2013)

Kabuto stomps with Edo Tensei. He summons the coffins and proceed to gangrape Itachi


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## IchLiebe (Jun 29, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> ^
> 
> 
> I just don't even.
> ...



Or you even going to debate or just troll.


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## Turrin (Jun 30, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Are you SSM12's dupe?
> 
> Because Itachi was very clearly feeling the vibrations:
> 
> ...


Niku it's made clear in the manga that the pain Edo's suffer is dulled, it's even commented on by Hanzo. They still seem to experience some Pain, but still...it's ridiculous to think they pain threshold is not higher, considering we've seen them handling having arms slashed and being blown to bits casually. Itachi handled Haguki better because his body was buffed via being an Edo it's really that simple.


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## BroKage (Jun 30, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> -Kabuto may NOT use any of the powers he assimilated from other shinobi.  What this means is, he only has Sage Mode, Hakugeki, and Muki Tensei, plus his base arsenal. *No Taka powers, no Orochimaru powers, no Sound 4 powers, no Edo Tensei.*




Without his implants Kabuto lacks a good method to survive Amaterasu or a reliable means to bypass Susano'o (White Rage may or may not work since Itachi overcame it as an Edo, he could use headhunter mole jutsu but then he's at Itachi's mercy). Without the White Snake's or Uzumaki's DNA enhancing his body he'll be slower and unlikely to dodge the Sword of Totsuka. Oral Rebirth and Phantom Sound Chains were Kabuto's aces against Itachi.

Hell since Kabuto lacks Hydration here, he'll be in danger against Itachi's exploding clones. 

If you're trying to stir up thought that Itachi's a better ninja than Kabuto if both are left to natural devices, well no shit, Kabuto already admitted that he was born with relatively little talent and stole power to make things even. To be fair Itachi needed to see his best friend die to gain MS so it's not like either's top tier hax is completely natural.

If that wasn't your aim though I'm sorry.


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## IchLiebe (Jun 30, 2013)

Shice said:


> Without his implants Kabuto lacks a good method to survive Amaterasu or a reliable means to bypass Susano'o (White Rage may or may not work since Itachi overcame it as an Edo, he could use headhunter mole jutsu but then he's at Itachi's mercy). Without the White Snake's or Uzumaki's DNA enhancing his body he'll be slower and unlikely to dodge the Sword of Totsuka. Oral Rebirth and Phantom Sound Chains were Kabuto's aces against Itachi.


 Bullshit, Sage sensing means he will never get hit by amaterasu and an alive Itachi can't keep spamming MS. Reliable means to bypass Susanoo; chakra scalpel, hell in the fight against the brothers what does he have not to counter Susanoo[my previous post hold the evidence I suggest you go and read it.] No his speed comes from sage mode and sage sensing, Not Uzumakiz's or Orochimaru's DNA, hell vs Tsunade he dodge a leg drop from less than 2 ft away while submerged in the ground, and he didn't use a doton. 





> Hell since Kabuto lacks Hydration here, he'll be in danger against Itachi's exploding clones.


 Im not sure if serious?
[1]
Now add to the fact that it cuts Itachi's chakra and that Kabuto has insane regeneration speed and unlimited chakra....wont' work and a pretty sad argument.





> If you're trying to stir up thought that Itachi's a better ninja than Kabuto if both are left to natural devices, well no shit, Kabuto already admitted that he was born with relatively little talent and stole power to make things even. To be fair Itachi needed to see his best friend die to gain MS so it's not like either's top tier hax is completely natural.


 Bullshit, Kabuto has been a genius since day one and an amazing medical ninja that even puts Tsunade to her limits. Itachi had his powers handed to him, he was born with an asspull while Kabuto had to gain those abilities he wasn't born with them.
If that wasn't your aim though I'm sorry. [/QUOTE]


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## Nikushimi (Jun 30, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Nope first panel he had Susanoo active, next panel he was in half. Why would he deactivate Susanoo? Chakra? There is no reason or proof he deactivated Susanoo.



Except we can see clearly that Itachi deactivated Susano'o:

Link removed

Bottom panels on the left column.

Apparently he had to do it to activate Izanami.

And seriously, don't play dumb with me:

Link removed

You can plainly see that there is no Susano'o protecting Itachi when Kabuto hits him.

This goes beyond the limits of human stupidity; you are just trolling and denying what is visibly on-panel.



> And Sasuke was capable of Oral Rebirth, but it doesn't matter thanks to sage sensing and Kabuto's own great healing abilities.
> Link removed Gets paralyzed
> 
> Link removed Still paralyzed
> ...



Itachi can activate Susano'o during Hakugeki and use it to stop Muki Tensei.



> And it was still a fatal blow, even though he was ET he was still vulnerable to being overwritten by a tag.



But if Sasuke were alive, Sasuke could protect him. Itachi would know this.

Besides that, Itachi is protective of Sasuke; it's not really surprising he did so at the cost of his own safety.



> And we don't know how Susanoo would've protected Itachi, it didn't protect Sasuke as Sasuke was in no danger as Kabuto and Itachi both said. Also even Susanoo is vulnerable to muki tensei as the ground below Susanoo is still open.



Susano'o can protect from all directions, including below; Madara was submerged on his back in Mei's lava and came out unharmed.

As for Muki Tensei getting through Susano'o, don't kid yourself; that Jutsu kept Kirin from killing Itachi and Muki Tensei is nowhere near that level.



> Oh really.
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...



Half of these examples are Itachi setting up Izanami with a clone by getting Kabuto to stab it.



> Holy Shit Kabuto got through Susanoo yet again
> Link removed



Kabuto got through Itachi's Susano'o aura, not a protective layer of Susano'o. 



> Look at his jutsu speed, he was able to counter a point blank in the face katon
> Link removed
> 
> Link removed



And I noticed you conveniently left out the part where Itachi blitzed him with his own Suiton before he could use it himself.



> ITachi didn't anticipate shit, he reacted after the fact but Kabuto clearly showed he was superior land multiple fatal blows in a small time frame whereas Itachi landed none.



Are you even paying attention? I just linked you to the pages where Kabuto complimented Itachi for predicting his moves.



> Thank you, you just yourself said Itachi knew Kabuto wouldn't harm Sasuke was trying to consume Sasuke.



Which is totally irrelevant because what I'm trying to show you is Kabuto's acknowledgement of Itachi's insight.

Though I don't even know why I bother, because you're trolling and you're not going to listen no matter what I say (or you're going to twist it around into something else and keep dragging out the conversation).

The point is, even Kabuto admitted Itachi could read him and thought he must have some extrasensory detection ability because of it.



> No but when did Susanoo hit Kabuto? Arrows? Magatama? Trying to grab the real Kabuto that wasn't a foot away from an enclosed hand. Susanoo was always in the way yet Kabuto got around it multiple time, Hakugeki, Chakra scalpel, a fucking non-chakra infused sword....Do I need to continue?



Both Itachi and Sasuke grabbed Kabuto with their Susano'o. The Magatama successfully kept him from moving and this is despite the fact that they weren't supposed to kill or seal him. The point is, it can be done.



> You can't take away the snakes that he has. He's been to the dragon cave, the place of snakes that Orochimaru hadn't been to. Kabuto is a better snake master than Orochimaru fact. Manda II is still allowed as that is exclusively Kabuto's summon as Sasuke couldn't summon him.



I didn't take that away; Kabuto could summon the original Manda, too. He has snake Kuchiyose.

I also kept his Sage Mode and his Senjutsu accessible, so it should be obvious that I acknowledge his training at Ryuuchidou.



> Also funny how Sasuke without Orochimaru's DNA can still summon snakes.



Sasuke had a snake summoning contract even before he assimilated Orochimaru, just like Kabuto did.



> Amaterasu hitting Kabuto, hell even Sasuke was dodging before Itachi cast it, I highly doubt someone leagues above Sasuke in sensing and speed will get hit,



Except Sasuke did get hit, and Kabuto is not "leagues above" him in speed; he is slightly faster, but not enough to make much of a difference (especially with the Juin being a kind of "fake" Sage Mode).



> he also has doton techs and can hide underground and as I showed has great jutsu execution speed....thats whats funny.



If Kabuto goes underground Itachi is just going to camp until he has to come up for air and then Totsuka him.



> And all you do is hype him up and try to cherry pick the manga whereas the entire Kabuto fight clearly showed he was a tier above the brothers, 2 tiers alone.



That's not what the manga showed at all.

Itachi was able to fight Kabuto evenly and maybe even beat him alone; what gave Kabuto the edge was his intel on the brothers and all of his various Jutsu they didn't know he had (like Mugen Onsa). That, combined with the fact that the brothers had to capture him safely to end Edo Tensei, was what made Kabuto the one in control of the fight.

Sasuke would've been able to beat him alone, too; hell, it may even have been a stomp if EMS Sasuke shows us something good later (like expedient setup of Kirin via Enton).



> Or I am showing them the pathetic attempts that Itachi fans use to try a solidify their character as a top tier when he clearly isn't.



No one is saying Itachi is top tier; that went out the window the second we saw what Madara could do, maybe even earlier.

I don't know what your beef with Itachi is but don't make that shit _my_ problem.



> The manga clearly depicts what I have said and proven.



The manga clearly depicts whatever you want it to if you go cherrypicking for whatever you want and ignore the rest of it, which is what you are doing.



IchLiebe said:


> Same MS techs, Sasuke is better as he has range and chakra capacity needed to continuously use MS.



Which has nothing to do with pain/noise tolerance.



> Ive never seen an Edo cry out in pain, do you have proof dead people feel pain.



I already posted the scan of Edo Itachi cringing and covering his ears from Hakugeki.

And besides that, they aren't dead- they're reanimated.

They even bleed.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 30, 2013)

> So when Itachi was getting cut in half, sword through his gut, arm being ripped off. He was just suppressing his natural instinct to cry out in pain.....no.



Itachi has better pain tolerance than most people. It figures, given that he's pretty much one of the most hardened badasses in the manga. Gaara said torture would pretty much be useless against the Akatsuki because they'd never cracked under it; they're all too hardcore. These were like, his exact words.



> And those were much more grievous injuries then falling on someone, Hanzou could've been straining to cut through armor and body. And you strain when your constipated not take a tab.



You strain like shit when you take a stab. I can vouch for that one myself.

You can go back and look at that scene for yourself, but I'm telling you, it looked like Hanzou was in pain.



> I have provided evidence that an alive person feels more effects from Hakugeki as a dead person was the only one able to react to it wheras the alive person wasn't able to do anything....at all.



Fallacy.

You have shown that the alive person was affected and the reanimated person was _less_-affected. You have NOT shown that the reanimated person was less-affected BECAUSE he was reanimated.

You have not established that causality. You have merely made an observation, which can be written off as coincidence or substituted with an alternative hypothesis (e.g., "Itachi is better at tolerating such trauma").

If Sasuke were less-affected than Itachi, that wouldn't mean reanimated people are more susceptible to pain.

It's the same logic; that is not sufficient evidence.



> Approval denied. As I have said before alive Itachi only ever used Susanoo for 1 minute tops.



Really? Please show me how you quantified that timeframe, because to my knowledge, no one else (including the brainiacs who do complicated manga calculations all the time just for shits and giggles) has been able to do so.



> And that just shows that Edo's don't feel pain as Itachi spammed Susanoo more than he did when he was alive,



Edo Itachi had infinite chakra, so there were no consequences for him.



> and showed no obvious drawbacks from MS as he did when he was alive.



Bleeding from the eye is not an obvious drawback? If that shit happened to me, I would get myself tested.



> With his jutsu speed and base speed that is easy, all he has to do is doton:hiding like a mole, then pop up under Susanoo with a chakra scalpel or just bite Itachi's arm off...GG, Itachi wouldn't be able to dodge due to the grievous drawback MS has on him.



Itachi can just see that coming and dodge. If Kabuto doesn't have some way to distract him, Itachi won't just stand there waiting to be attacked.



> Nope, Sasuke had to get hit then recover and fire back cause he didn't have the necessary jutsu to escape its path, Sasuke could've chidori through the roof but he is dumb.



Sasuke did Chidori through the roof, but he couldn't do that before he was hit.

So Kabuto's basically screwed if he tries that.



Bluenote said:


> Since when does covering your ears mean that you feel a bunch of vibrations? It just means it's really loud.



...They never taught you in school what sound is, did they?



> As Sasuke says, the *vibrations* cause the bones to vibrate against the flesh. that is the pain. Does Edo Itachi have bones? No. Does Living Itachi have bones? Yes.



Edo Itachi is a recreation of Itachi's body. Yes, he has bones. And blood, too, which implies a cardiovascular system. And Genjutsu works (Kotoamatsukami), so he even has a functioning brain.



joshhookway said:


> Kabuto stomps with Edo Tensei. He summons the coffins and proceed to gangrape Itachi



Read the restrictions before posting in a match, please.



Turrin said:


> Niku it's made clear in the manga that the pain Edo's suffer is dulled, it's even commented on by Hanzo. They still seem to experience some Pain, but still...it's ridiculous to think they pain threshold is not higher, considering we've seen them handling having arms slashed and being blown to bits casually. Itachi handled Haguki better because his body was buffed via being an Edo it's really that simple.



If it's really so simple, then let's see your evidence.

I've already provided mine...and proved that everything you just said is bullshit, because we clearly see Itachi reacting adversely to Hakugeki, just like Sasuke.


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## Turrin (Jun 30, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> If it's really so simple, then let's see your evidence.
> 
> I've already provided mine...and proved that everything you just said is bullshit, because we clearly see Itachi reacting adversely to Hakugeki, just like Sasuke.


No reaction to what should cause extreme pain and most characters go onto chat casually after receiving these  injuries:

1. 5 Swords through body time to casually talk puppets
2. Samurai Sword Slash to the head, might as well flashback
3. Arm Hacked off, Lazers, Sword Slash, and more Lazers, whatever i'll just use my severed body parts for weapons
4. Giant Skull Crushing Fist let me casually gush about how proud i am
5. Amaterasu, the Juubi's a pussy, I can't even feel these flames
6. Giant War God Sword can't everyone have a casual talk with someone with a sword through the stomach?
7. Planetary Rasengan shmasengan
8.  Missing Half a Brain from explosion who cares
9. Meteor crushed me to nothing, was that suppose to hurt? 
10. My arm was Atomized , whatever bro
11. Arm and Leg Atomized & than electrocuted consistently while crushed by sand, meh might as well casually talk about my own power.
12. Bruce Lee kicked me in half, no reaction

More coming soon considering theirs edos still in play.

Yeah i'm sure vibrations are more painful then being crushed to nothing by a meteor


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## Bonly (Jun 30, 2013)

Itachi should be able to win more times then not. When Kabuto used Senpo: Hakugeki he said he was safe due to Suigetsu's DNA which allows him to liquefy his body to take the vibrations gently as well as his snake cornea to block the blinding light. Kabuto may be able to block the light but he'll still feel the vibrations which will hurt him so Kabuto isn't likely to use that jutsu. Itachi was fast enough to react to Kabuto's Senpo: Muki Tensei and protect Sasuke. Itachi should easily be able to put up Susanoo  to protect himself.

This leaves Kabuto with his bas arsenal and his base arsenal isn't enough to beat Itachi. Kabuto needs the DNA from other people or edo tensi to beat Itachi.


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## IchLiebe (Jun 30, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Except we can see clearly that Itachi deactivated Susano'o:
> 
> Muki Tensei
> 
> Bottom panels on the left column.


 Ill give you that, but still Itachi put his guard down for no reason...So hes dumb.





> Apparently he had to do it to activate Izanami.
> 
> And seriously, don't play dumb with me:
> 
> ...


 Still Kabuto got around Susanoo, even if Itachi dropped it. And good job you took away 1 Susanoo busting feat of the 3 Kabuto has.





> Itachi can activate Susano'o during Hakugeki and use it to stop Muki Tensei.


 Not if he is alive, Sasuke couldn't alive neither can Itachi. They are the fucking same more or less. Sasuke even commented that he couldn't maintain Susanoo. Now add to the fact that Susanoo also harms the user Itachi won't be in good condition even if he did manage to survive and that takes away from Itachi's chakra pool. Leaving him with maybe 2 MS usages.





> But if Sasuke were alive, Sasuke could protect him. Itachi would know this.
> 
> Besides that, Itachi is protective of Sasuke; it's not really surprising he did so at the cost of his own safety.


 So you admit how Itachi knew Kabuto what Kabuto would do. If Kabuto chose to attack Itachi, he would overwritten him. Why would he rely on Sasuke against a sage who is stomping them. Sasuke threw sword....caught. Sasuke grabbed Kabuto....Kabuto escaped an enclosed hand. With someone with the speed and reactions of Kabuto, why rely on someone to save you?



> Susano'o can protect from all directions, including below; Madara was submerged on his back in Mei's lava and came out unharmed.


 The lava didn't come up from the ground. Unless you believe that Susanoo aura reaches underground and would tear up the ground just by walking across it, but it has never done that, and has been shown to be vulnerable underneath.





> As for Muki Tensei getting through Susano'o, don't kid yourself; that Jutsu kept Kirin from killing Itachi and Muki Tensei is nowhere near that level.


 YM blocked most of it, and still didn't tank it. Muki Tensei uses the ground underneath Susanoo(Itachi's don't have legs) and impales Itachi or forces him out of Susanoo.





> Half of these examples are Itachi setting up Izanami with a clone by getting Kabuto to stab it.


 And you count Itachi's Izanami feats. Alright that just gives credit to Kabuto.





> Kabuto got through Itachi's Susano'o aura, not a protective layer of Susano'o.


 A chakra construct regardless. Aura's protect as well, thats a barrier.





> And I noticed you conveniently left out the part where Itachi blitzed him with his own Suiton before he could use it himself.


 After they was in Izanami.





> Are you even paying attention? I just linked you to the pages where Kabuto complimented Itachi for predicting his moves.


 Kabuto said Itachi predicted "who" Kabuto was going for and thus protected Sasuke.





> Which is totally irrelevant because what I'm trying to show you is Kabuto's acknowledgement of Itachi's insight.


 Which is irrelevant as Itachi dropped Susanoo and was cut in half...good insight. Oh and how Itachi dodged all his attacks.... Yea Itachi didn't do shit insight wise.





> Though I don't even know why I bother, because you're trolling and you're not going to listen no matter what I say (or you're going to twist it around into something else and keep dragging out the conversation).


 I am not trolling I have given reasonable explanations as well as manga proof that Kabuto is superior. Your the one trolling as you can't even see what the manga makes very clear.





> The point is, even Kabuto admitted Itachi could read him and thought he must have some extrasensory detection ability because of it.


 I've done commented on this. Itachi didn't block any attacks, except a eating attempt on Sasuke of which was luck and in these circumstance he can not replicate.





> Both Itachi and Sasuke grabbed Kabuto with their Susano'o. The Magatama successfully kept him from moving and this is despite the fact that they weren't supposed to kill or seal him. The point is, it can be done.


 And what happened to Itachi and Sasuke? Oh thats right they grabbed Oro, then Kabuto, then Kabuto oral rebirth and ripped Itachi's arm off...through Susanoo. The Magatama stopped him from moving? Since when did he have a paralyzing area of effect?





> I didn't take that away; Kabuto could summon the original Manda, too. He has snake Kuchiyose.


 As well as snakes such as his belly snake and snake techs as he is more snake like then Orochimaru ever was and had been to the dragon cave, so snake jutsu wise I would put Kabuto>Orochimaru or do you think that Kabuto won't be able to use oral rebirth now that Oro isn't inside him.





> I also kept his Sage Mode and his Senjutsu accessible, so it should be obvious that I acknowledge his training at Ryuuchidou.


 So you should give him all snake abilities including oral rebirth that he has shown as those are techniques that he didn't just acquire by Oro's DNA but training to use those jutsu.





> Sasuke had a snake summoning contract even before he assimilated Orochimaru, just like Kabuto did.


 Sasuke had the CS, Kabuto didn't. Actually Oro had to summon the snakes in the Sannin fight, not Kabuto. Those are jutsu that he learned not through watching. Orochimaru never taught Kabuto like he did Sasuke.





> Except Sasuke did get hit, and Kabuto is not "leagues above" him in speed; he is slightly faster, but not enough to make much of a difference (especially with the Juin being a kind of "fake" Sage Mode).


 Fake, he went to the dragon cave and trained for it. Plus he was in sage mode longer than Naruto so right now he is a perfect sage as he can keep drawing in natural chakra while Naruto has to take a minute to draw in.





> If Kabuto goes underground Itachi is just going to camp until he has to come up for air and then Totsuka him.


 So Itachi is going to wait for 5mins with Susanoo up for Kabuto to appear. That going off of human beings can go 4 mins without oxygen w/o passing out. Itachi can't maintain Susanoo for that long. And a horrible strat, so Itachi will try it.





> That's not what the manga showed at all.
> 
> Itachi was able to fight Kabuto evenly and maybe even beat him alone; what gave Kabuto the edge was his intel on the brothers and all of his various Jutsu they didn't know he had (like Mugen Onsa). That, combined with the fact that the brothers had to capture him safely to end Edo Tensei, was what made Kabuto the one in control of the fight.


 Bullshit, Kabuto barely had knowledge of MS, he hadn't even seen Susanoo before this and his first move countered it perfectly. Itachi can't beat him alone, did you not see Kabuto wiping his ass all over Itachi's face?





> Sasuke would've been able to beat him alone, too; hell, it may even have been a stomp if EMS Sasuke shows us something good later (like expedient setup of Kirin via Enton).


 Yes Sasuke has more chakra thus he can fight longer and with more powerful techs, Itachi can't maintain Susanoo for long and really weak chakra.





> No one is saying Itachi is top tier; that went out the window the second we saw what Madara could do, maybe even earlier.


 Oh yea.





> I don't know what your beef with Itachi is but don't make that shit _my_ problem.
> 
> 
> 
> The manga clearly depicts whatever you want it to if you go cherrypicking for whatever you want and ignore the rest of it, which is what you are doing.


 I think you read the manga backwards or something because the Kabuto vs Uchiha bros is so construed by you that I don't think you have read the entire fight...yet. I have no beef with Itachi, I have beef with people thinking that he is the greatest ninja and unstoppable which is not reality. Kabuto man handled Itachi.





> Which has nothing to do with pain/noise tolerance.
> 
> 
> 
> I already posted the scan of Edo Itachi cringing and covering his ears from Hakugeki.


 Yes because of sound not he bones rubbing together.





> And besides that, they aren't dead- they're reanimated.
> 
> They even bleed.


Oh and we they get cut in half, blood splatter all over the place and you see bones popping out instead we see what looks like paper? Not blood, not bones, but paper.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2013)

Not sure if those restrictions are necessary... Makes this pretty one sided imo. 
Itachi having full knowledge and killing intent(and the permission to kill Kabuto this time around) secures the win in his favor. 
Taking away all those abilities from Kabuto leaves him no chance to win this.

We've already seen Itachi can defend himself from Kabuto's 2 strongest jutsus without even having prior knowledge. There is absolutely nothing Kabuto can do to Itachi here.
Itachi on the other hand has many options. He can either distract Kabuto with a bunshin or magatama spam, or even restrict his area of movement by circling him with Amaterasu, and then finish him off with Totsuka. or just with a Susano'o punch(without karin's healing factor and Suigetsus abilities he turns into puddle of shit).

Itachi with medium difficulty.


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## IchLiebe (Jun 30, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi has better pain tolerance than most people. It figures, given that he's pretty much one of the most hardened badasses in the manga. Gaara said torture would pretty much be useless against the Akatsuki because they'd never cracked under it; they're all too hardcore. These were like, his exact words.


 LOL what a fucking baseless claim. Thats like me saying Osama would never crack under torture, so he have better pain tolerance. Hardened badass? Lol, Kisame still felt pain to the point it woke him up, he didn't give up any information and they mindfuck not torture as thats an unreliable way to give accurate information. Unless your pain receptors are cut off you will still feel pain, now how you handle that pain is different.





> You strain like shit when you take a stab. I can vouch for that one myself.


 So when you stab something you are in pain....Emo(jk)





> You can go back and look at that scene for yourself, but I'm telling you, it looked like Hanzou was in pain.


 ? "Shakes head in disappointment"





> Fallacy.
> 
> You have shown that the alive person was affected and the reanimated person was _less_-affected. You have NOT shown that the reanimated person was less-affected BECAUSE he was reanimated.


 Thats exactly how it shows it. Alive person-couldn't maintain or reform Susanoo. Dead person made of paper- formed partial Susanoo.


> You have not established that causality. You have merely made an observation, which can be written off as coincidence or substituted with an alternative hypothesis (e.g., "Itachi is better at tolerating such trauma").
> 
> If Sasuke were less-affected than Itachi, that wouldn't mean reanimated people are more susceptible to pain.


 Sasuke was effect more than Itachi, which would mean reanimated people are less susceptible to pain.





> It's the same logic; that is not sufficient evidence.


 No its not the same logic.


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## Rocky (Jun 30, 2013)

Bluenote said:


> Since when does covering your ears mean that you feel a bunch of vibrations? It just means it's really loud.
> 
> As Sasuke says, the *vibrations* cause the bones to vibrate against the flesh. that is the pain. Does Edo Itachi have bones? No. Does Living Itachi have bones? Yes.




It's kind of cute that you don't know what sound is.

Nevertheless, Edo Itachi has bones. The zombies even have blood. Itachi wouldn't look like that if he didn't have bones.


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## IchLiebe (Jun 30, 2013)

^Proof, I've never seen an edo bleed


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## Bonly (Jun 30, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> ^Proof, I've never seen an edo bleed



Hanzo used a summoning jutsu which requires blood(IIRC) to work(except in Nagato's case it seems) so it should hint that Edo's have blood. Also Jiraiya said that when Naruto went V2 he was also covered in his own blood as well as chakra and since Kin(or Gin)kaku was able to go V2, it can hint to them having blood. But we have never seem an Edo outright bleed, just give hints that they have blood.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> ^Proof, I've never seen an edo bleed



his own blood



I swear this kid doesn't read the manga...


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## Bonly (Jun 30, 2013)

And I now feel stupid


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 30, 2013)

Muki Tensei ensures that Kabuto stomps. This time, with no Sasuke, Kabuto can ensure the entire cave crushes Itachi.


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## Antos (Jul 1, 2013)

Itachi is either to fast to get hit by Muki Tensei or has more than enough time to put up a defense and plus amaterasu heat counters it word from Kabuto's own mouth also stopping as to not run into a defensive amaterasu is in no way the same as dodging a offensive one.  Nagato also showed us that MS jutsu being sensed can feel the very same.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Muki Tensei ensures that Kabuto stomps. This time, with no Sasuke, Kabuto can ensure the entire cave crushes Itachi.



Susano'o





IchLiebe said:


> Until you show blood being splatter from him getting cut in half. Or any Edo getting injured and bleeding. I consider that a drawback to MS, such as Mu drawback to splitting.



So Itachi's edo body produced blood for convenience 

Anyways concession accepted.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jul 1, 2013)

Wow seriosuly? Having restrictions in certain battles makes it more interesting however once it goes to an extreme like this one whats the point? This is pretty much limiting kabuto to having stone weapons vs Itachi who has modern weapons...well you get the point

Itachi easily wins in this scenario

With no restrictions kabuto rape stomps living Itachi and takes it with moderate-high difficulty against Edo Itachi


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 1, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Susano'o



The _entire _cave i.e. not holding back the impact because Sasuke is there.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The _entire _cave i.e. not holding back the impact because Sasuke is there.



Susano'o is stronger than the cave.
Come at me bro


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 1, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Susano'o is stronger than the cave.
> Come at me bro



If Itachi can form a strong enough Susanoo, by all means he can. However: The. Entire. Cave. 

Think about it.


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Jul 1, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> *Location:* Kabuto's Cave
> *Distance:* Itachi just burst through the wall, a la the manga.
> *Knowledge:* Full
> *Mindset:* In-character; Itachi is allowed to kill/seal Kabuto this time.
> ...



I am sorry , but even with the abilities of the sound 5 and Oro, Itachi still wins!

Itachi proved He is too much for kabuto without any restriction while trying to only capture, not kill and while protecting sasuke too.. That means that Itachi was able to beat kabuto as a Sage and using the abilities of all Oro's lackeys while holding back and protecting his brother too...

And without sasuke to get in the way, itachi would not of ever been hit by any of Kabuto's jutsu...
And without holding back to capture... Use of full susanoo arsenal, amaterasu, ect will now be open for use. WHich is too much for kabuto IMO...

If he could not even stand up against an itachi who was barely using any jutsu and holding back so much while trying to protect his brother. Then has no chance against Itachi who doe snot have to hold back, protect anyone or capture not kill...

Itachi wins unless sasuke tries to help lol!


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If Itachi can form a strong enough Susanoo, by all means he can. However: The. Entire. Cave.
> 
> Think about it.



I did, and I still think Susano'o is stronger. I mean the rocks will just break on Susano'o's armor. 
And Itachi has full knowledge in this match up, he can use Amaterasu on the cave to return it back to normal. So even if you think that Susano'o will succumb to the cave, there is another way Itachi can defend against it.


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## Baroxio (Jul 1, 2013)

Plus Amaterasu >> Muki Tensei in activation speed.

So with full knowledge that technique isn't going to do shit.

Just another example of how Itachi's superior execution speed gives him the win against Kabuto in a full knowledge scenario.


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 1, 2013)

Probably Itachi. These are a lot of restrictions. There is no reliable way for him to avoid amaterasu now. Genjutsu gets avoided of course but honestly Itachi with quite a few of his base moves can pressure Kabuto. Kabuto really only has chakra scapel, the sound dragon, and the cave spikes. His SM does not seem to give durability or strength enhancements. Just great sensing abilities, speed buff, and enhancement of ninjutsu, taijutsu, and genjutsu. Sensing/speed makes bunshin feints hopeless. Even with Sasuke's help, he could only get a horn. So no Sasuke then no horn. Suiton can beat his katons. Actually on second thought, no Itachi is going to need the Mangekyou still.

Cave spikes will require Susano as will the sound dragon. If he can sense amaterasu, he might be able to use his cave transformation to attack him quickly to interrupt the amaterasu like what Bee was going to do except with a much faster attack. However with the flames on the field, he may not be able to use his cave spikes anymore. So a second amaterasu may be enough to finish him. Getting through Susano is also a problem. Sound dragon might be able to leave him open long enough to do it but he needed Suigetsu's body to use it effectively. Without it, he won't be able to use it as well. Itachi however just needs to land an amaterasu or Totsuka which can be done if Itachi can counter the sound dragon. With full knowledge he may be able to hit it with amaterasu before it can reach him.

I would likely give it to Itachi more often than not. But hand it to Kabuto with 80 percent of his arsenal restricted, he can still give Fanfiction Itachi a fight.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 2, 2013)

Dragon Sage Ash said:


> I am sorry , but even with the abilities of the sound 5 and Oro, Itachi still wins!
> 
> Itachi proved He is too much for kabuto without any restriction while trying to only capture, not kill and while protecting sasuke too.. That means that Itachi was able to beat kabuto as a Sage and using the abilities of all Oro's lackeys while holding back and protecting his brother too...
> 
> ...



I agree with this.



Turrin said:


> No reaction to what should cause extreme pain and most characters go onto chat casually after receiving these  injuries:
> 
> 1. 5 Swords through body time to casually talk puppets
> 2. Samurai Sword Slash to the head, might as well flashback
> ...





Damn, Turrin. You really went all-out.

Well, I can't say I'm not at a loss here, but this still doesn't explain Hanzou's, Deidara's, and Itachi's visible reactions of discomfort.

Could just be "lol Kishi" as I don't see any other consistent explanation here.

More to the original point, Itachi _was_ definitely affected by Hakugeki, so the argument that it didn't work because he's an Edo Tensei is unfounded; it _did_ work- just not fully.



IchLiebe said:


> Ill give you that, but still Itachi put his guard down for no reason...So hes dumb.



Or he had to do it for Izanami.

The guy with a 5 in Intelligence is definitely not dumb. At the absolute worst, it's PIS.



> Still Kabuto got around Susanoo, even if Itachi dropped it. And good job you took away 1 Susanoo busting feat of the 3 Kabuto has.



Kabuto doesn't have any Susano'o-busting feats; he lacks the offensive power and the only Jutsu he can use in this match with the capability of disabling Susano'o is Hakugeki, which does not work against Itachi completely.



> Not if he is alive, Sasuke couldn't alive neither can Itachi. They are the fucking same more or less. Sasuke even commented that he couldn't maintain Susanoo.



As similar as Itachi and Sasuke are, there are still differences between them.

Sasuke has better Amaterasu control.

Itachi has better Genjutsu control.

Itachi is smarter and more experienced than Sasuke.

Sasuke has more stamina than Itachi.

Itachi is apparently just better at handling Hakugeki. It's not really unusual or surprising; differnet shinobi would handle exposure to it differently.



> Now add to the fact that Susanoo also harms the user Itachi won't be in good condition even if he did manage to survive and that takes away from Itachi's chakra pool. Leaving him with maybe 2 MS usages.



Well...no.

Susano'o only harms the user after it's been used for a long time (which means the user would have to be near the end of their run anyway). Partial activation for a few seconds is not going to rob Itachi of any significant amount of chakra, and he can use four MS techs normally (five if you count Tensha Fuuin; I don't know why you wouldn't, but I concede that it's impossible to tell).



> So you admit how Itachi knew Kabuto what Kabuto would do. If Kabuto chose to attack Itachi, he would overwritten him. Why would he rely on Sasuke against a sage who is stomping them. Sasuke threw sword....caught. Sasuke grabbed Kabuto....Kabuto escaped an enclosed hand. With someone with the speed and reactions of Kabuto, why rely on someone to save you?



Because if Sasuke gets bonked on the head and goes nighty-night, Itachi is stuck playing keep-away with his unconscious meat sack while fighting Kabuto. That's just one more handicap he didn't need.

Although I'm just speculating at this point; I honestly don't know what Itachi's reasoning was. I just know he could activate Susano'o in time to protect Sasuke from Muki Tensei (even if he didn't need it) and Sasuke isn't here this time.



> The lava didn't come up from the ground. Unless you believe that Susanoo aura reaches underground and would tear up the ground just by walking across it, but it has never done that, and has been shown to be vulnerable underneath.



The lava was cast under Madara and he was knocked into it:

no reaction

no reaction

And then submerged in it completely:

no reaction

Susano'o protected him from it.

Apparently it just fazes through the ground when the user moves; some kind of selective intangibility that Kishimoto hasn't bothered to address.

I don't know how it works, but we have clear evidence that there is no opening in the Jutsu.



> YM blocked most of it, and still didn't tank it.



We didn't see what blocked it. There is no evidence that the Yata Mirror was or wasn't used.



> Muki Tensei uses the ground underneath Susanoo(Itachi's don't have legs) and impales Itachi or forces him out of Susanoo.



Why wouldn't Susano'o just move with Itachi? There's nothing holding it in place.

Itachi has knowledge of Muki Tensei and a Jutsu that can neutralize it, anyway. Why are we even discussing this?



> And you count Itachi's Izanami feats. Alright that just gives credit to Kabuto.



Why wouldn't I? Some of the feats you linked (like Kabuto stabbing Itachi through his Susano'o aura) were also performed inside Izanami, which does not exaggerate abilities as far as I know.



> A chakra construct regardless. Aura's protect as well, thats a barrier.



Defensive feats for the Susano'o aura? None?

Okay then.

The only thing we have is Kabuto penetrating it with a sword. That aura could've been paper-thin and weaker than rice paper for all we know.



> After they was in Izanami. Kabuto said Itachi predicted "who" Kabuto was going for and thus protected Sasuke. Which is irrelevant as Itachi dropped Susanoo and was cut in half...good insight. Oh and how Itachi dodged all his attacks.... Yea Itachi didn't do shit insight wise.



Just because Itachi took hits from Kabuto doesn't make his feat of predictive insight any less valid.

This is what typically happens when people of the same level fight each other: They take attacks. They avoid and block some, but they do take them.

We saw Itachi block Kabuto's chakra scalpel with a sword, so it's not like Kabuto can just run circles around him freely.



> I am not trolling I have given reasonable explanations as well as manga proof that Kabuto is superior. Your the one trolling as you can't even see what the manga makes very clear. I've done commented on this. Itachi didn't block any attacks, except a eating attempt on Sasuke of which was luck and in these circumstance he can not replicate.



You have provided nothing reasonable; you are defending the effectiveness of two Jutsu Itachi has already proven he can counter and now has the knowledge to do so in advance.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 2, 2013)

> And what happened to Itachi and Sasuke? Oh thats right they grabbed Oro, then Kabuto, then Kabuto oral rebirth and ripped Itachi's arm off...through Susanoo.



Kabuto can't use Oral Rebirth here. So he gets grabbed and then crushed and that's the end.



> The Magatama stopped him from moving? Since when did he have a paralyzing area of effect?



Itachi cast the Magatama around Kabuto using the boar-hunting strategy and blocked off his path of movement in all directions so that Sasuke could pin him with an arrow. He can do that here and Amaterasu Kabuto himself.



> As well as snakes such as his belly snake and snake techs as he is more snake like then Orochimaru ever was and had been to the dragon cave, so snake jutsu wise I would put Kabuto>Orochimaru or do you think that Kabuto won't be able to use oral rebirth now that Oro isn't inside him.



Doesn't matter because Oral Rebirth was Orochimaru's Jutsu, not Kabuto's; Kabuto never showed it himself and we saw Sasuke gain it just by absorbing Oro's power like Kabuto did.



> So you should give him all snake abilities including oral rebirth that he has shown as those are techniques that he didn't just acquire by Oro's DNA but training to use those jutsu.



We don't know that; he only used such Jutsu after assimilating Orochimaru so it isn't fair to just assume that he could before.

If you are not satisfied with that, you can make your own thread with your own conditions.



> Sasuke had the CS, Kabuto didn't. Actually Oro had to summon the snakes in the Sannin fight, not Kabuto. Those are jutsu that he learned not through watching. Orochimaru never taught Kabuto like he did Sasuke.



No. Orochimaru was not capable of Kuchiyose with his arms sealed; he had Kabuto performing the summoning for him:

no reaction

It was the same with the fodder snakes at the start of that fight, too.



> Fake, he went to the dragon cave and trained for it. Plus he was in sage mode longer than Naruto so right now he is a perfect sage as he can keep drawing in natural chakra while Naruto has to take a minute to draw in.



Naruto is a perfect sage, too; I don't see why that is relevant. He still isn't fast enough to just dodge Amaterasu without being able to escape Itachi's LOS before Itachi can lock onto him.



> So Itachi is going to wait for 5mins with Susanoo up for Kabuto to appear. That going off of human beings can go 4 mins without oxygen w/o passing out. Itachi can't maintain Susanoo for that long. And a horrible strat, so Itachi will try it.



Sasuke kept Susano'o up for at least 7 minutes against Danzou (going by his Izanagi count), and that includes his use of Amaterasu and everything else.

Itachi should be able to maintain Susano'o for at least half that long, even sick, given that his stamina is only a tier below Sasuke's.

Not that Itachi needs to keep Susano'o up while Kabuto is underground; I don't know where that came from.



> Bullshit, Kabuto barely had knowledge of MS, he hadn't even seen Susanoo before this and his first move countered it perfectly.



Er, Kabuto knew about it through Edo Nagato. Same goes for Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi (the latter by Naruto's word-of-mouth), and I'm sure the international super spy whose hobby is collecting shinobi skill details on his Ninja Info Cards has probably at least _heard_ the MS hype going around since Sasuke attacked the Kage Summit.

This is the same guy who recreated Rinnegan in Uchiha Madara apparently and you think he doesn't have substantial knowledge of MS? Please.



> Itachi can't beat him alone, did you not see Kabuto wiping his ass all over Itachi's face?



I saw Kabuto trying to convince Sasuke to help him take Itachi down twice and Kabuto only hitting Itachi for bullshit PIS reasons when Itachi could've just one-shotted him with his sealing sword from the get-go if he wanted to.



> Yes Sasuke has more chakra thus he can fight longer and with more powerful techs, Itachi can't maintain Susanoo for long and really weak chakra. Oh yea. I think you read the manga backwards or something because the Kabuto vs Uchiha bros is so construed by you that I don't think you have read the entire fight...yet.



This is not that fight.

Kabuto's lost all the abilities he stole and now Itachi has proper intel and the go-ahead to take him down by any means.



> I have no beef with Itachi, I have beef with people thinking that he is the greatest ninja and unstoppable which is not reality. Kabuto man handled Itachi.



And again, the circumstances made that possible more than Kabuto's actual abilities did. Itachi can counter 90% of his arsenal with just Amaterasu and has the Totsuka no Tsurugi that he just needs to find a way to stick through Kabuto's gut before he keels over from exhaustion, which shouldn't be much of a problem given that he was fast enough to match Kabuto in a physical clash.



> Yes because of sound not he bones rubbing together.Oh and we they get cut in half, blood splatter all over the place and you see bones popping out instead we see what looks like paper? Not blood, not bones, but paper.



That's what happens when Edo Tensei are destroyed; their composition breaks down. But when they are intact, their bodies are replicants of living ones. That's why they look like people and not just people-shaped mounds of paper and dirt.

We've seen them bleed. We've seen them breath and we know they have cardiovascular systems via Hanzou; the paralysis experienced by Hanzou (which Kankurou described as numbness) suggests that the poison was probably a neurotoxin, which means even the peripheral nervous system is intact and functioning. The very fact that Itachi was bothered by Hakugeki's noise proves he has working ears and a brain to process that sensory input. Kotoamatsukami proved that Edo Tensei have working brains. What more do you need?



IchLiebe said:


> LOL what a fucking baseless claim. Thats like me saying Osama would never crack under torture, so he have better pain tolerance. Hardened badass? Lol, Kisame still felt pain to the point it woke him up, he didn't give up any information and they mindfuck not torture as thats an unreliable way to give accurate information. Unless your pain receptors are cut off you will still feel pain, now how you handle that pain is different.



You call it a baseless claim and then you provide backup for it yourself; Kisame is a perfect example. He used pain to his advantage and resisted any attempt to read his mind. He bit off his own tongue *and then started laughing*.



> So when you stab something you are in pain....Emo(jk)



I have been stabbed and it fucking hurts. 

It's not something you really need to experience to understand, though. It hurts even before it breaks skin; that's your body's way of telling you "stop doing that."



> ? "Shakes head in disappointment"



Look for yourself.



> Thats exactly how it shows it. Alive person-couldn't maintain or reform Susanoo. Dead person made of paper- formed partial Susanoo.
> Sasuke was effect more than Itachi, which would mean reanimated people are less susceptible to pain.



And Itachi was still clearly affected by it, so the claim that he somehow didn't feel it because he was an Edo Tensei is bullshit. He clearly did feel it; it just didn't stop him.



> No its not the same logic.



It is exactly the same logic.

You are observing a difference and then arbitrarily picking one explanation for it when there are (better) alternatives available.



IchLiebe said:


> ^Proof, I've never seen an edo bleed



...Amaterasu?



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Muki Tensei ensures that Kabuto stomps. This time, with no Sasuke, Kabuto can ensure the entire cave crushes Itachi.



Unless Muki Tensei can generate forces in excess of what Itachi survived in Kirin, it isn't doing anything to him.

But Muki Tensei has shown nowhere near that level of power, so no.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If Itachi can form a strong enough Susanoo, by all means he can. However: The. Entire. Cave.
> 
> Think about it.



...I'm thinking about it, and I'm not seeing how an attack of that level is supposed to breach Susano'o.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 2, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So you choose 3 people, 1 who is over dramatic to oppose the position that 5+ people showed. You remember when Animal path was being tortured, was she screaming out in pain...NO SHE WAS FUCKING DEAD. Pain is for an indication that you got hurt or hurting, if your dead you can overcome the pain as you can tell yourself, "It doesn't matter what pain I feel I have an undying body." [/quote]
More to the original point, Itachi _was_ definitely affected by Hakugeki, so the argument that it didn't work because he's an Edo Tensei is unfounded; it _did_ work- just not fully.
[/quote] Ill give that he was blinded and deafened. Sasuke was alive and more susceptible to pain because he was alive and self preservation is top priority of almost anyone and couldn't maintain Susanoo nor reform it. Yea your right, it busted Susanoo, blinded, and deafened Itachi...thats a big drawback. What about instead of using eat no jutsu, he used Muki Tensei or any other basic ninjutsu. And I love how hakugeki just disappeared.





> Or he had to do it for Izanami.


 Baseless. 
The guy with a 5 in Intelligence is definitely not dumb. At the absolute worst, it's PIS.[/quote] I haven't seen him do nothing that constitutes that 5 unlike Kabuto has.





> Kabuto doesn't have any Susano'o-busting feats; he lacks the offensive power and the only Jutsu he can use in this match with the capability of disabling Susano'o is Hakugeki, which does not work against Itachi completely.


 Vs Itachi you can just outlast Susanoo. Chakra scalpel will get through skeletal Susanoo, not full form. Hakugeki plus kunai GG, Hakugeki plus anything equals gg.





> As similar as Itachi and Sasuke are, there are still differences between them.
> 
> Sasuke has better Amaterasu control.
> 
> ...


 And Sasuke's better with Susanoo. Itachi's stamina is what limits him so much, he won't be able to match Kabuto toe to toe while using MS techs to try and kill him of which won't work due to sage sensing. And having counters to it. I wonder how hakugeki would effect Amaterasu since ST has an effect on it.





> Susano'o only harms the user after it's been used for a long time (which means the user would have to be near the end of their run anyway). Partial activation for a few seconds is not going to rob Itachi of any significant amount of chakra, and he can use four MS techs normally (five if you count Tensha Fuuin; I don't know why you wouldn't, but I concede that it's impossible to tell).


 Now Itachi has 5 MS techs...Im done

last thing im going to say because i know Kabuto will win and im not going to argue when you are using dumb logic. Itachi is going to have a hard time even hitting him.

Also do you not think that Kabuto went through probably the most difficult training that one can be put through after assimilating Orochimaru. Why I give him those techniques is because it isn't a kekkai genkai, its a ninjutsu. And Kabuto made a much better use of it than Orochimaru did. What about ET do you not think that he couldn't use that until he got assimilated with Orochiamaru? Or is that also Oro hidden kekkai genkai? I won't give him Orochimaru's true form though. 

Kabuto still has military ration pills, blood stopping pills and the almighty ninja info cards.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 2, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> ...I'm thinking about it, and I'm not seeing how an attack of that level is supposed to breach Susano'o.



The smokes alone were able to stab Itachi, we've nothing to say the level of Susanoo that Itachi was able spawn in that situation would've withstood Muki Tensei. I doubt it will withstand a Muki Tensei that is not going to be hindered.



> Unless Muki Tensei can generate forces in excess of what Itachi survived in Kirin, it isn't doing anything to him.
> 
> But Muki Tensei has shown nowhere near that level of power, so no.



Being hit with lightning is different to having an entire cave crushing you. 

Muki Tensei allows Kabuto to freely manipulate the environment. Unless Itachi can withstand the pressure of an entire cave crushing him, I don't see him doing too well. Especially in a battlefield like a cave.


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