# Jiraiya vs. 3rd Kazekage, 4th Kazekage, and Gaara



## Nikushimi (Jul 20, 2014)

*Location:* Sunagakure
*Distance:* 100m
*Knowledge:* Full
*Mindset:* In-character
*Conditions/Restrictions:*
-Jiraiya starts in base form, but he is allowed to retreat temporarily and prep Sage Mode if he wants to.
-The village is evacuated.
-Assume the 3rd Kazekage retains all of the puppet's feats from fighting Sakura and Chiyo, minus puppet modifications like arm blades and poison. It probably doesn't matter, but just assume his speed/reaction time and physical attributes are on par with Gaara and the 4th.

*Scenario 2:* Jiraiya starts in Sage Mode.


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## Alex Payne (Jul 20, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> *Location:* Sunagakure
> *Distance:* 100m
> *Knowledge:* Full





Nikushimi said:


> *Location:* Sunagakure





SM Jiraiya in another location might beat all three imo. But not in Suna.


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## J★J♥ (Jul 20, 2014)

Unless Jiraya starts with hour of prep in sage mode fused with Ma and Pa and attacks first he dies in nano seconds.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 20, 2014)

The location kills Jiraiya more than anything else, though Jiraiya's summons make up for it


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## Destiny Monarch (Jul 20, 2014)

Location is what utterly destroys Jiraiya. In a other location he could have a shot (Though Gaara's Sand mixed with his dads might still be a handful).


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## Nikushimi (Jul 20, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Lol that was Part 2 and he was protecting his village



Without the village, he has no desert sand. Without the desert sand, Deidara has no reason to drop C3, since the whole point was to divert that sand so Gaara would have to defend with his bomb-ridden Absolute Defense. ck



> He isnt worthless as he performed well against Sasuke



He literally blocked one attack from an injured/tired Sasuke and then Sasuke retreated (Gaara brought backup and Sasuke was just getting out of a fight with the Raikage).



> You forget that Gaara isn't the only you put on this thread. You have 2 other kages against Jiraya who gets curbstomped. Sage Mode doesn't cannot overpower a Tsunami.



Sage Mode can send a boss-sized giant bull or a boss-sized giant rhino sailing through the air like a plush toy. I'd say Jiraiya can handle everything short of having the entire desert dropped on him. The giant toad trio also lift their own weight very casually when they leap over multiple kilometers. Gaara not only has to overpower all these fuckers, but he has to do it with enough force against each of them to deal critical damage. Not seeing how he can pull that off, even if he totally forgets to use some of his sand to defend himself (which would be suicide).

Gamabunta (and probably the other giant toads, since Gamakichi can do it) can produce oil (which apparently dulls the movement of and reduces the cohesion of Gaara's sand), too, and in large enough quantities to spray over almost a village-sized area.


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## Ennoia (Jul 20, 2014)

I believe Only SM Jiraiya stands a chance here but he still loses badly. In fact, Gaara may solo so to add in his father only makes things much worse. Its unclear just how much sand the third could use but given he is supposed to be superior to the fourth this is a complete stomp. Regular summons die on the spot and Ma and Pa dont have large enough scale of jutsu to be effective. The only advantage Jiraiya has is one of speed in SM and flight negates that along with this ridiculous distance and full knowledge. Jiraiya likely wont even use big summons given he actually cares about his and this is IC; the scale of jutsu coming at him is simply too much for him to handle.

My only variable is what SM Yomi Numa is capable of.


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## Veo (Jul 20, 2014)

Gaara alone in this scenario is more than a good match up for Jiraya. Deidara could fly thus he had an enormous mobility, much better than Jiraya even in SM. Adding two other sand users tips the scale heavily towards suna trio.

Suna wins low diff.


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## Turrin (Jul 20, 2014)

1 Kage is enough to give Jiraiya a tough fight. 2 Kages are far too much for him to handle. 3 Kages rape stomp.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 20, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Without the village, he has no desert sand. Without the desert sand, Deidara has no reason to drop C3, since the whole point was to divert that sand so Gaara would have to defend with his bomb-ridden Absolute Defense. ck
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. The village doesn't supply Gaara with sand  Gaara is not in Part 2 anymore. Jiraya is NOT as fast as Deidara

2. K

3. You always revert back to the summons. Without summons Jiraya is nothing. Summons are the only thing that saves him briefly. A Jiraya vs thread becomes his summon vs 

Do you not see the point? You honestly made this thread. 3 kages vs 1. You terribly underrate Gaara and his elders. You overrate Jiraya who has no chance in hell in Gaaras home terrain. You reallly hate Gaara. Jiraya can't compete with all of these together in the desert. Get over it. This thread should be locked due to a major shitstomp.


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## OG Appachai (Jul 20, 2014)

In a desert? Jiraiya gets low diffed. The toads are killed or dispelled easily, anyone of the kazekage can crush a limb and it would be over for them. Or iron sand can pierce them and kill them too. 

After that jiraiya will fall victim to their massive AOE attacks. This is overkill bro


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 20, 2014)

Base Jiraiya can't avoid burial by just Gaara alone.

The location is a desert, he explode lifts the sand on Jiraiya's position and buries him [1].


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## Nikushimi (Jul 20, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> 1. The village doesn't supply Gaara with sand





That is exactly what it does.

He sure didn't pull it out of his ass.



> Gaara is not in Part 2 anymore.



That is just factually incorrect...



> Jiraya is NOT as fast as Deidara



They have the same speed statistic in the third databook, and Sage Mode ought to give J-man a significant edge since Pain needed shared vision to keep up with his movement.



> 3. You always revert back to the summons. Without summons Jiraya is nothing. Summons are the only thing that saves him briefly. A Jiraya vs thread becomes his summon vs
> 
> Do you not see the point?



I don't disagree with you, but Jiraiya's summons aren't restricted here, so I'm afraid I don't see your point...



> You honestly made this thread. 3 kages vs 1. You terribly underrate Gaara and his elders. You overrate Jiraya who has no chance in hell in Gaaras home terrain. You reallly hate Gaara.



I don't hate Gaara any more than I hate Jiraiya. I mean, I hate them both, but I hate Jiraiya a little more. He just happens to be a hell of a lot stronger than Gaara and is equipped with a natural counter to his sand (oil).

Gaara lost to a Deidara who came with a low supply of clay and fought without killing intent.



> Jiraya can't compete with all of these together in the desert. Get over it. This thread should be locked due to a major shitstomp.



No one has even attempted to explain how Gaara deals with having his sand jizzed on by Gamabunta's massive oil load--nevermind what happens when Jiraiya decides to set it all on fire.



DaVizWiz said:


> Base Jiraiya can't avoid burial by just Gaara alone.



Deidara did. 



> The location is a desert, he explode lifts the sand on Jiraiya's position and buries him [1].



Why would Jiraiya not just dodge it or break it apart by summoning a giant toad?


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## Dr. White (Jul 20, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> That is exactly what it does.
> 
> He sure didn't pull it out of his ass.
> 
> ...


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## Nikushimi (Jul 20, 2014)

I seriously just had a major WTF moment when I read those lines.

Like how the fuck are you even supposed to react to something that blatantly wrong?

It's not like Sunagakure providing Gaara with a topographical advantage wasn't explicitly mentioned by Deidara, either.


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## RedChidori (Jul 20, 2014)

OG Appachai said:


> In a desert? Jiraiya gets low diffed. The toads are killed or dispelled easily, anyone of the kazekage can crush a limb and it would be over for them. Or iron sand can pierce them and kill them too.
> 
> After that jiraiya will fall victim to their massive AOE attacks. This is overkill bro



This is accurate for me .


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## Dr. White (Jul 20, 2014)

In scenario 1, Jiraiya just dies. No explanation needed.

In scenario 2, Gaara is still gonna always be able to find Jiraiya with his sensor sand and third eye. He should be able to attack from starting distance since it is Suna,  Thrid Kaze will go after Jiraiya guided by Gaara on the cloud, or a sand clone on the cloud (since gaara can lol at sand usage here) and they occupy Jiraiya. Meanwhile Gaara's dad has been prepping gold to fudge over Jiraiya. Him and his son attack on a different front, and completely overwhelm even Sage Jiraiya. Even things that would usually be helpful here.

His only chance would be to get in a building before detected and hide inside a frog, inside like a closet. But even if he comes back with frog song prepped he has to make it to the enemy (who has been promptly prepping their respective minerals.), at bet I can see him taking out the 3rd Kaze, but even that is highly doubtful.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 20, 2014)

^That's all oil, btw.


*Spoiler*: __ 









GG, sand user.

Also, good luck killing these three:


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 20, 2014)

> Deidara did.


Deidara was on a clay bird above a village full of citizens. 



> Why would Jiraiya not just dodge it or break it apart by summoning a giant toad?


Excuse me? 

SM Jiraiya wouldn't even avoid that sand lift if he were on top of Gamabunta, are you aware how large the AoE of that sand is? Read the panel dude.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 20, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Deidara was on a clay bird above a village full of citizens.



All that really means is he has the option to evade vertically and sustain it.

Jiraiya can't sustain it, but he can at least jump really fucking high and far thanks to his toads.



> Excuse me?
> 
> SM Jiraiya wouldn't even avoid that sand lift if he were on top of Gamabunta, are you aware how large the AoE of that sand is? Read the panel dude.



I'm saying Gamabunta's fat ass would plow through that shit like Oprah body-slamming somebody's sandcastle at the beach.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 20, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> That is exactly what it does.
> 
> He sure didn't pull it out of his ass.
> 
> ...



Gaara's Large AoE attacks overwhelm the toad oil fire combo. 

The village isn't made of sand  herp derp

Jiraya can't fly. Like Kimimaro got caught if he could fly then the Tsunami would have been useless. 
Jiraya gets blown up. Read everyone else's comment lol no one agrees with you. You're alone.
This is the second time I've proved you wrong.
It's funny because in Part 2 Gaara had the Shukaku. He doesn't have it anymore. War Arc is Part 3


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## Nikushimi (Jul 20, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Gaara's Large AoE attacks overwhelm the toad oil fire combo.



Gaara can't manipulate sand that's been drenched with oil.



> The village isn't made of sand  herp derp



No--it just happens to be built on top of a fucking desert. 



> Jiraya can't fly. Like Kimimaro got caught if he could fly then the Tsunami would have been useless.



Kimimaro doesn't have any giant toads to hitch a ride on.



> Jiraya gets blown up. Read everyone else's comment lol no one agrees with you. You're alone.
> This is the second time I've proved you wrong.



It would be one thing if everyone was actively addressing my arguments, but that's not what's going on; they're just repeating the same mistakes over and over again, individually.

No one has addressed Gaara's weakness to oil or Jiraiya's ability to produce it. No one has addressed how Gaara is supposed to deal with the boss toads. No one has addressed how Gaara is actually supposed to catch Jiraiya when he couldn't even catch Deidara (aerial mobility is a moot point when J-man can just leap around multiple kilometers in one stride on top of a pet mountain).



> It's funny because in Part 2 Gaara had the Shukaku. He doesn't have it anymore. War Arc is Part 3



This seems entirely arbitrary, because the only distinction between parts 1 and 2 in the manga is a large timeskip, and there hasn't been another one of those to signal the transition to a part 3. The anime went from being "Naruto" to "Naruto Shippuuden" when part 2 rolled around; no such change has taken place for this mythical part 3 you have imagined.

Are you seriously drawing the line based on whether or not Gaara has Shukaku? Pretty sure Gaara's not the main character of this manga, so that doesn't seem appropriate.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 20, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Gaara can't manipulate sand that's been drenched with oil.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Jiraya doesn't start with his summons out as he will be taken out quickly as soon as the battle begins. As if any of the toads are going to use all of their oil on the sand. Even that won't work as Gaara is accompanied with 2 other kages.

Yes THE VILLAGE IS BUILT ON THE DESERT! The village DOESN'T supply him with sand the terrain does. The terrain is not the village. 

Jiraya alone can't leap kilometers high. Gaara's sand is way faster than him. Your best argument is oil in which they are in a desert. Oil does NOTHING to village sized sand. You think a summon will beat the 3 Kazekages in a desert? Wow that's a ludicrous brief. Village Sized Sand >>>>>>>>> Jirayas oil. With no proof of how much oil he can use on his own, you can't use that. You still aren't taking into account of what the other Kazekages can do.

If you still believe they are in Part 2 then you're just plain stupid.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 20, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> All that really means is he has the option to evade vertically and sustain it.
> 
> Jiraiya can't sustain it, but he can at least jump really fucking high and far thanks to his toads.
> 
> I'm saying Gamabunta's fat ass would plow through that shit like Oprah body-slamming somebody's sandcastle at the beach.


No Gamabunta wouldn't... the frog would be torpedo'd into the air just as Jiraiya would be.

Look at the panel dude, that is millions of gallons of sand lifted several kilometers into the air in matter of a couple seconds, from what I'm looking at it's AoE extends at least half a kilometer in diameter on the base floor- and in the air the sand actually spreads out like a tree's branches several kilometers away from the base [1] [2]

Jiraiya isn't evading it, his frogs aren't evading it, not that he'd have ample time to summon them regardless... he's blown up half a second into start battle.

Look at the size of this sand sphere in comparison to Deidara's body [1] [2], he can drop that sphere on Jiraiya and this wall of sand on him [3]


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## ARGUS (Jul 21, 2014)

Jiraiya gets wrecked,


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## StickaStick (Jul 21, 2014)

Gaara alone with this location and distance would give Jiraiya a good fight. Adding two other Kages (particulary _Kaze_kages) makes it a route.


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## Rocky (Jul 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> 1 Kage is enough to give Jiraiya a tough fight.



Jiraiya mops the floor with Gaara (or the other, weaker two) just as easily as he did with Konan. Sage Mode makes it a gargantuan stomp.



> 2 Kages are far too much for him to handle.



Jiraiya can summon frogs that swing around building sized weapons without the slightest hint of fatigue. _Any_ of the Gama Toads can stall _any_ of the lowly Kazekage until Jiraiya himself is done violating the other.

If he uses Sage Mode (and he doesn't need to), then he melts both Kage with Goemon and leaves. 



> 3 Kages rape stomp.



More like "3 Kage make the fight debatable."


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## Dr. White (Jul 21, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> ^That's all oil, btw.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Gaara has a desert to work with. He won't be running out of sand anytime soon. Also gaara with full will anticipate this and probably mix with his dads sand to make it heavier.

Summons get trapped in quicksand, or spiked by Iron release.

I would agree with you if this wasn't Suna


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 21, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Jiraiya mops the floor with Gaara (or the other, weaker two) just as easily as he did with Konan. Sage Mode makes it a gargantuan stomp.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are you seriously saying 3 makes it debatable? Why are you trolling.
Gaara alone in the FUCKING desert would give Jiraya a fight if not win. Jiraya alone is mid-tier Kage. Gallons of sand overpowers oil indefinitely. The Kazekages only need to kill Jiraya and the summonsdisappear. You underrate them terribly. Its sad. Get over it


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## tanman (Jul 21, 2014)

This is basically the desert version of Jiraiya v. Pain.
The kazekages might be weaker than Pain overall but they have a much bigger homefield advantage. With the city evacuated, Gaara is nigh untouchable. His biggest limitation is chakra exhaustion. But that shouldn't be too much of trouble as the other two kages can take advantage of all the sand to camouflage their attacks and take him out quickly.


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## Empathy (Jul 21, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Gaara lost to a Deidara who came with a low supply of clay and fought without killing intent.



To be fair, Gaara didn't fight with killing intent either. There's a good chance he could've killed Deidara when he got a hold of his arm, if that were his goal. I think Jiraiya has a fair chance to beat them if the location didn't give Gaara a tremendous advantage. I don't see why the character who controls sand and acquires more sand as the battle progresses, wouldn't exponentially grow stronger in proportion if you start him surrounded by nothing but sand. Jiraiya again, has decent odds if the location weren't advantageous to either side. Gaara would logically begin a lot stronger if the location where say, the sand dimension Kaguya trapped Sasuke in, than Amegakure for example.



Nikushimi said:


> I'm saying Gamabunta's fat ass would plow through that shit like Oprah body-slamming somebody's sandcastle at the beach.



To perhaps incline you to reconsider this line of unsubstantiated conjecture, I'll provide a brief listing of resiliency and strength of Gaara's sand thusly. Gaara's sand was able to:


No sell the entire explosive force of a village-busting _C3_.
Mitigate the damage sustained by Madara's giant meteorites
Resist the force of Madara's blows using _Susanoo_
Halt the chains from _Gedo Mazou_ that were dragging all the bijuu powerlessly against their will

Unless Bunta is considerably physically stronger than every one of the bijuu, him trying to truck his way through Gaara's village-sized helpings of sand would be like you or I trying to Kool-Aid Man our way through the Great Wall.


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## trance (Jul 21, 2014)

> Location: Sunagakure



With a location like this, Gaara is now _ridiculously_ stronger than he actually is. 

With the village evacuated, he'll go full on with a city-sized sand tsunami that Jiraiya has virtually zero chance of avoiding or countering and assuming he doesn't get caught, he faces _another_ sand tsunami and with the sheer crushing pressure Gaara's sand is capable of, J-Man gets crushed to the size of a grapefruit.


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Jiraiya mops the floor with Gaara (or the other, weaker two) just as easily as he did with Konan. Sage Mode makes it a gargantuan stomp.


I assume you mean because of Oil? If that's the case than the situations aren't really comparable. Gaara can overcome his weakness to Oil through producing more sand than the person can produce Oil. Considering the match starts at 100m w/ full knowledge. Gaara is not going to come in close and get owned by Oil. He's going to keep his distance and grind out enough sand to overcome the Oil before engaging Jiriaya. Well that would be the case if the location wasn't Sungakuru where Gaara can instantly conjure a quantity of sand far beyond the amount of Oil Jiriaya can produce (and that's even back at the start of PII). Considering the location Oil is not a threat whatsoever to Gaara and in-fact Jiriaya is the one that could end up PWN'd by Gaara's opening Sand-Tsunami not the other way around. 



> Jiraiya can summon frogs that swing around building sized weapons without the slightest hint of fatigue. Any of the Gama Toads can stall any of the lowly Kazekage until Jiraiya himself is done violating the other.


No they can't. The Gamma Toads would get PWND by the Kazekage's attacks. They are massive targets to be sniped with Satetsu or Sealed/Crushed by Imperial Sand Coffin. Given the location if Gaara is one of the two Kazekage's he'd wipe them all out instantly with Sand Tsunami. Hell even Yondaime-Kazekage whose the weakest of the three defeated Shukaku who is much stronger than any of the Gamma-Trio or even all 3 combined. 

Gama-Trio can offer support when up against one enemy, but they aren't taking on even a single Kage enemy by themselves. Or at least they've never once shown that aptitude. 



> If he uses Sage Mode (and he doesn't need to), then he melts both Kage with Goemon and leaves.


Goemon gets overwhelmed by the scale of the Kazekage's Tsunami's. Or they simply fly above it with their sand. Goemon is literally the least threatening of the techniques Sennin Modo Jiriaya could employ. 



> More like "3 Kage make the fight debatable."


In no universe does Kishi want us to believe Jiriaya is able to take 3 Kazekage (in Sunagakuru no less). In-fact nowhere does Kishi indicate Jiriaya can even take 2 Kazekages. Jiriaya's limit is 1 Kazekage and under the most favorable conditions against the weakest Kazekages maybe pushing two of them to mid diff. That's it. 

You need to be Nagato level of above to take on two Kages (even the weakest Kages) and win.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 21, 2014)

We got massive Kazekage haters. Rocky has joined the club. Oh well.


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## Rocky (Jul 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I assume you mean because of Oil? If that's the case than the situations aren't really comparable. Gaara can overcome his weakness to Oil through producing more sand than the person can produce Oil.



Jiraiya doesn't need to stand there and try to overpower an entire damn desert with oil. He can avoid the sluggish sand waves using his Toad's massive leaping distance, just like Deidara did with his clay owl. 

Every so often, he can launch Gamayu Endan (ie. a cannon of flaming oil) Gaara's way, something sand cannot really block. 



> No they can't. The Gamma Toads would get PWND by the Kazekage's attacks. They are massive targets to be sniped with Satetsu or Sealed/Crushed by Imperial Sand Coffin. Given the location if Gaara is one of the two Kazekage's he'd wipe them all out instantly with Sand Tsunami.



Last time I checked, the Gama Toads are not inanimate objects. They can think, evade, block, etc. 



> Goemon gets overwhelmed by the scale of the Kazekage's Tsunami's. Or they simply fly above it with their sand. Goemon is literally the least threatening of the techniques Sennin Modo Jiriaya could employ.



I've only seen Gaara produce a mass of sand capable of overwhelming a miniature lake of molten oil, and even that's up for debate. 

They cannot fly either, as Jiraiya can turn their footholds into swampland with Yomi Numa.



> In no universe does Kishi want us to believe Jiriaya is able to take 3 Kazekage (in Sunagakuru no less)
> 
> Jiriaya's limit is 1 Kazekage and under the most favorable conditions against the weakest Kazekages maybe pushing two of them to mid diff. That's it.



Is this a "portrayal" argument? 

Under more favorable circumstances, Jiraiya was said to be capable of bringing down Pain. I don't agree with that per say, but I suppose Kishimoto does.

This is the same Pain that went into Konoha guns blazing, murdering hordes of fodder, multiple Elite jōnin, and the Kage-tier Kakashi...._at the same time_. Then he blew the fucking village up, knocking its Legendary Hokage into a coma. Then, without rest & an intent-to-capture mindset, he one paneled the Gama Trio, impaled Sage Fukusaku, and incapacitated a Sage Mode Naruto _with preparation_. 

Imo, the three Kazekage would get pasted by Pain with an intent to kill, so if Jiraiya can apparently handle him (in Kishimoto's mind), then Jiraiya can handle the Kage.


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## Hachibi (Jul 21, 2014)

This thread would be good if the location wasn't suna 

they beat Jiraiya low difficulty and Sage Jiraiya mid difficulty


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 21, 2014)

>Overrated Jiraya

>Believes he can beat 3 kage members with toads

>Gets fucked by Gaara alone


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## Rocky (Jul 21, 2014)

Gaara couldn't even beat a Deidara that wasn't allowed to hit him with anything above C1.

Jiraiya kept up with Pain.

Jiraiya _murks. _


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## Hachibi (Jul 21, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Gaara couldn't even beat a Deidara that wasn't allowed to hit him with anything above C1.
> 
> Jiraiya kept up with Pain.
> 
> Jiraiya _murks. _



Early Shippuden Gaara=/=Current Gaara

Current Gaara could do fight Edo Mu and Edo Mizu gauntlet style


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## Dr. White (Jul 21, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Gaara couldn't even beat a Deidara that wasn't allowed to hit him with anything above C1.
> 
> Jiraiya kept up with Pain.
> 
> Jiraiya _murks. _



Worst logic I have ever seen you attempt to use.

Diedara is the perfect counter to Gaara. Gaara also had to worry about his village it was a terrorist attack, not a Budokai match up.

Jiraiya high - extreme diff'd the 2/3 of the weakest offensive paths, and got low diffed by the six of them.

Jiraiya doesn't get close to murking here.


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## Rocky (Jul 21, 2014)

Gaara had Shukaku against Deidara, though.

Mū was beaten by Naruto & Ōnoki; Gaara merely provided footing for Naruto.

Gaara did beat Trollkage, but the Mizukage spent the vast majority of that fight telling everybody exactly how his techniques worked. There was also leftover gold dust from Gaara's fight with his father, which was conveniently perfect for subduing Joki Boi, and Gaara only knew that to begin with because the Mizukage told him. Seems like pretty STACKED conditions in favor of the good guy.


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## Rocky (Jul 21, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Diedara is the perfect counter to Gaara.



No, he is not.  



> Gaara also had to worry about his village it was a terrorist attack, not a Budokai match up.



Deiadara would have left the sand village alone had Gaara not had an enormous advantage because of it. 

The pros and cons of the location even out.



> Jiraiya high - extreme diff'd the 2/3 of the weakest offensive paths, and got low diffed by the six of them.



Jiraiya fought three without knowledge and won, which is farther than Gaara would get.

Pain even claimed that with more knowledge, Jiraiya could've won that fight. If that is true, J-man murks Gaara, like I said. 

Jiraiya also murks by feats, considering he has multiple combinations that involve gallons of "Gaara's weakness."


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 21, 2014)

Why does he keep using ABC logic. 

So tf what. Jiraya still lost to Pain.  They were coming one after the other

The conditions with the Deidara fight did not even out. Deidara has an enormous advantage. Flight!

Gaara literally controls the very thing Jiraya is stepping on. He gets low diff'd
You guys need to stop using Early Part 2 Gaara for Current Gaara's battles. Current Gaara is clearly portrayed higher.

Gaara didn't use the Shukaku because he would have put the villagers in danger. Deidara didn't even kill him. Gaara used up his lsst bit of chakra and wad knocked out.


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## Hachibi (Jul 21, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Gaara didn't use the Shukaku because he would have put the villagers in danger. Deidara didn't even kill him. Gaara used up his lsst bit of chakra and wad knocked out.



we're not sure if Gaara was a perfect jin back then but I agree with you about the rest of your post


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 21, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> we're not sure if Gaara was a perfect jin back then but I agree with you about the rest of your post



No I don't think he was but he could force himself to sleep right?


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## Hachibi (Jul 21, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> No I don't think he was but he could force himself to sleep right?



His Dream about Naruto shocked Shukaku so deeply that he let Gaara sleep since then


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 21, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> His Dream about Naruto shocked Shukaku so deeply that he let Gaara sleep since then



Lololololol


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 22, 2014)

Jiraiya's only chance is to mold the location into a swamp immediately with yomi numa to avoid getting a desert dumped on his head at match start.  But Gaara can pull sand from farther than I think Jiraiya can terraform, like he did against the edo kages, so it's still unbalanced.


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Jiraiya doesn't need to stand there and try to overpower an entire damn desert with oil. He can avoid the sluggish sand waves using his Toad's massive leaping distance, just like Deidara did with his clay owl.
> .


Gamabunta can't leap high enough to avoid Gaara's Sand Tsunami. Deidara never avoided it ether. In the Deidava vs Gaara instance Gaara could not use it because he couldn't drop all that sand on the village, which Deidara was flying over; additionally Gaara was trying to capture Deidara rather than kill him.



> Every so often, he can launch Gamayu Endan (ie. a cannon of flaming oil) Gaara's way, something sand cannot really block.


Why can't sand block it. We've seen Sand block Fire before (Black-Flames of Amaterasu no less).



> Last time I checked, the Gama Toads are not inanimate objects. They can think, evade, block, etc.


This has nothing to do with my response. Yes they can evade and block, but they can't evade or block the Kazekage's attacks, because they are out-matched. 



> I've only seen Gaara produce a mass of sand capable of overwhelming a miniature lake of molten oil, and even that's up for debate.


Yondaime-Kazekage's Gold Dust Tsunami matched Gaara's Sand Tsunami, when they fought.

And once again they can simply fly above it.



> They cannot fly either, as Jiraiya can turn their footholds into swampland with Yomi Numa.


Jiriaya creates the swamp and than they lift themselves up with Sand/Dust/Iron.



> nder more favorable circumstances, Jiraiya was said to be capable of bringing down Pain. I don't agree with that per say, but I suppose Kishimoto does


Pain is not stronger than 3 Kazekage (especially in the desert). Pain defeated many Konoha shinobi, but he never faced multiple Kage-Class enemies at once. He faced them gauntlet style, which doesn't really matter for Pain as his massive chakra prevented him from tiring and his abilities allowed him to revive the paths.

If Jiraiya faced the Kazekage's gauntlet style, full knowledge, and w/o Gaara having the topograpical advantage than he'd perform better as well. And could perhaps win depending on the limits of his Sennin Modo chakra supply.


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## LostSelf (Jul 22, 2014)

Deidara faring well against the desert, in wich, like Turrin said, Gaara was avoiding to harm his village, is not something bad for Gaara. Being airborne against a source of sand that comes from the floor is very, very different than handlng the same sand when you are standing on it.

And Gaara's sand was overwhelming enough to pressure the three Kages with one assault, and managed to trap them with relative ease.

Things get worse when Gaara can pull the same amount of sand he pulled against Deidara, but this right, right below his victim's feets. This is something that not everybody can take.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 22, 2014)

Jiraiya fires off a village sinker Yomi Numa and calls it a day.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 22, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Jiraiya fires off a village sinker Yomi Numa and calls it a day.



And depletes his entire chakra and passes out, only for the Kazekages to crush him


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## Rocky (Jul 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Gamabunta can't leap high enough to avoid Gaara's Sand Tsunami. Deidara never avoided it ether. In the Deidava vs Gaara instance Gaara could not use it because he couldn't drop all that sand on the village, which Deidara was flying over; additionally Gaara was trying to capture Deidara rather than kill him.



Gamabunta doesn't have to jump _over_ the wave. He can jump away from from it.

Not that Gaara would bring down such a massive amount of sand on top of his village, evacuated or not.



> Why can't sand block it. We've seen Sand block Fire before (Black-Flames of Amaterasu no less).



Amaterasu isn't ignited oil.



> But they can't evade or block the Kazekage's attacks, because they are out-matched.



Which attacks are you referring to?



> Yondaime-Kazekage's Gold Dust Tsunami matched Gaara's Sand Tsunami, when they fought.



The wave of sand Gaara used against the Edo Kage isn't overwhelming a lake of Sage powered burning oil. 



> Jiriaya creates the swamp and than they lift themselves up with Sand/Dust/Iron.



And Jiraiya turns those sand/dust/iron footholds to swampland with Yomi Numa.



> Pain is not stronger than 3 Kazekage (especially in the desert). Pain defeated many Konoha shinobi, but he never faced multiple Kage-Class enemies at once. He faced them gauntlet style, which doesn't really matter for Pain as his massive chakra prevented him from tiring and his abilities allowed him to revive the paths.



What are you talking about? Pain faced the entire leaf village at once. The bodies weren't near each other, but they were still all fighting some part of the Leaf military at any given time. Even without Naruto and Gai, Konoha's combined military might should be above that of two or three Kazekage.

Hell, I don't really see the team of Kazekage beating all five Gama Toads and then _incapacitating_ Naruto with prep either. Then beating Hinata only for that to send to Naruto into a Kyubified frenzy. Then incapacitating Rokubi Naruto, etc.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 22, 2014)

Jiraya can't produce a desert filled of Yomi Numa or it would deplete all his chakra. That Yomi Numa he used against Manda wasn't nearly enough to cover an entire desert. 
The other Kazekages can use gold or iron at will. And produce a lot of it.

Gaara can solo actually. Sand Bullets GG.


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## Hachibi (Jul 22, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Jiraya can't produce a desert filled of Yomi Numa or it would deplete all his chakra. That Yomi Numa he used against Manda wasn't nearly enough to cover an entire desert.
> The other Kazekages can use gold or iron at will. And produce a lot of it.
> 
> Gaara can solo actually. Sand Bullets GG.



Didn't he needed Shukaku for the Sand Bullet against Sage Madara? 
Also, Shukaku isn't restricted, Bijuudama GG


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 22, 2014)

Not sure if you're trolling or what Rocky.. most of the shit you're saying is outright ridiculous dude..

Base Jiraiya beating Current Gaara in a location where he's entrapped by buildings with a desert floor? Gama Trio beating 3 Kazekages in Suna... let alone Curent Gaara? 

Dude... you piss me off.

Jiraiya is blown up a kilometer by his sand at start battle, he canonically lifts waves of sand arguably a miles away, kilometers into the air with a base diameter that looked greater than half a kilometer and curved waves trailing away kilometers from the base of the explosive lift toward Deidara's direction. 

Jiraiya cannot avoid his sand in this location, it doesn't matter if you started him in SM on top of Gamabunta.


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Gamabunta doesn't have to jump _over_ the wave. He can jump away from from it.


He couldn't escape it scope.



> Not that Gaara would bring down such a massive amount of sand on top of his village, evacuated or not.


I see no stipulations in the opening that Gaara needs to fight while protecting the village.



> Amaterasu isn't ignited oil.


What does it matter?



> Which attacks are you referring to?


Pretty much any attack as the Dust/Iron/Sand all have better speed feats than the Toads.



> The wave of sand Gaara used against the Edo Kage isn't overwhelming a lake of Sage powered burning oil.


There is so much sand than Oil, that yes it will simply cover it.



> And Jiraiya turns those sand/dust/iron footholds to swampland with Yomi Numa.


This assumes Jiriaya can transform any material, even if said material is impuned with chakra into a swamp. If he can do that he'd solo anyone in the verse with Yomi Numa, as he could just turn peoples bodies into the swamp.



> What are you talking about? Pain faced the entire leaf village at once. The bodies weren't near each other, but they were still all fighting some part of the Leaf military at any given time. Even without Naruto and Gai, Konoha's combined military might should be above that of two or three Kazekage.


Who did any of the Pain bodies fight that was even remotely close to the level of a Kazekage, besides Kakashi



> Hell, I don't really see the team of Kazekage beating all five Gama Toads and then incapacitating Naruto with prep either. Then beating Hinata only for that to send to Naruto into a Kyubified frenzy. Then incapacitating Rokubi Naruto, etc.


But they would. Naruto can't even survive Gaara's intro Tsunami in the desert.


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## Psp123789 (Jul 22, 2014)

Jirayia would  probably win this if it wasn't for the location. The kazekages never were exactly  the strongest kages.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 22, 2014)

Psp123789 said:


> Jirayia would  probably win this if it wasn't for the location. The kazekages never were exactly  the strongest kages.



The 3rd was the fourth no. Gaara is the strongest of the Gokage or atleast second


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 22, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> Didn't he needed Shukaku for the Sand Bullet against Sage Madara?
> Also, Shukaku isn't restricted, Bijuudama GG



I don't think he needs Shukaku really. Maybe they would be slower but still.


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## Psp123789 (Jul 22, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> The 3rd was the fourth no. Gaara is the strongest of the Gokage or atleast second


 In a neutral ground? Doubt it. Even with an environmental advantage i don't see him beating Onoki. Suna overall has had the weakest kages.


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## Hachibi (Jul 22, 2014)

Shukaku and Gaara have a Teamwork Spirit, so Perfect Jin Gaara?


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 22, 2014)

Psp123789 said:


> In a neutral ground? Doubt it. Even with an environmental advantage i don't see him beating Onoki. Suna overall has had the weakest kages.



Neutral meaning outside second strongest. 
You can't prove it has the weakest. The fourth isn't that weak as he was able to subdue the Shukaku.
Gaara is hella strong.
He can beat Ohnoki if the location was a desert.


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## Bonly (Jul 22, 2014)

Jiraiya might have had a good shot if they weren't in Suna but in a place full of Sand the Kazekages should win more times then not.


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## Psp123789 (Jul 22, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Neutral meaning outside second strongest.
> You can't prove it has the weakest. The fourth isn't that weak as he was able to subdue the Shukaku.


Yes i can. When looking at the feats of the other villages it's pretty obvious. Kirigakure is the only village the sand is possibly stronger than.



> Gaara is hella strong.
> He can beat Ohnoki if the location was a desert.


Only under favorable conditions is gaara able to beat onoki and even then his victory is not certain considering his performance against deidara.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 22, 2014)

Psp123789 said:


> Yes i can. When looking at the feats of the other villages it's pretty obvious. Kirigakure is the only village the sand is possibly stronger than.
> 
> 
> Only under favorable conditions is gaara able to beat onoki and even then his victory is not certain considering his performance against deidara.



1.  Thank you for agreeing

2. Current Gaara saved ohnoki he isnt in the beginning of Part 2 anymore. Thanks for agreeing again.


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## Hachibi (Jul 22, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> 1.  Thank you for agreeing
> 
> 2. Current Gaara saved ohnoki he isnt in the beginning of Part 2 anymore. Thanks for agreeing again.



Don't worry, Perfect Jin Gaara may be a thing


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## genii96 (Jul 23, 2014)

Jiraiya gets merked


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## JuicyG (Jul 23, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> The 3rd was the fourth no. Gaara is the strongest of the Gokage or atleast second




Someone needs to smack u boy 

Gaara is NOT the strongest of the Gokage, and for that matter all Kazekages were mediocre Kage at best


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 23, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Someone needs to smack u boy
> 
> Gaara is NOT the strongest of the Gokage, and for that matter all Kazekages were mediocre Kage at best



In a desert yes. I said or atleast the second. Gaara is powerful and so was his dad.


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## Bloo (Jul 23, 2014)

Psp123789 said:


> Only under favorable conditions is gaara able to beat onoki and even then his victory is not certain *considering his performance against deidara.*


Considering Deidara's fighting style being a good counter to Gaara's, Gaara's mindset, and the fact that this was beginning of Part II, that statement should not be made anymore. War Arc Gaara >>>>> the Gaara that fought Deidara.


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