# Saber Vs Kratos Vs Emerald Weapon



## Cthulhu-versailles (Nov 10, 2010)

Saber from Fate Stay Night 
Vs 
Kratos from the God of War 
Vs
emerald weapon from FF7
Vs
Dante from devil may cry 
Vs
Samus from metroid games


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## Cypher0120 (Nov 10, 2010)

Saber's out due to the fact that Dante would probably beat her barring Avalon.

Kratos is outsped and outstyled by Dante in previous debates as well.

Emerald Weapon has no feats.

I'd say it's between Dante and Samus.

(Or a Dante/Saber/Samus...)


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## Crimson King (Nov 10, 2010)

How is Dante beating Saber?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Nov 10, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> How is Dante beating Saber?



Time stop.


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## Crimson King (Nov 10, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Time stop.



A rank Magic Resist says no to it.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Nov 10, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> A rank Magic Resist says no to it.



Has she resisted time stop?


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## Hoshino Rika (Nov 10, 2010)

Kratos can take attacks from someone who can lift the planet, can overpower said person and reacted to lightning.

The answer is clear. Kratos lifts the Emerald Weapon with one hand and beats the others to death with it.


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## Big Bοss (Nov 10, 2010)

IIRC only Gilgamesh has feats of resisting time stop, so unless you have feats of Saber doing the same she can't.


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## Crimson King (Nov 10, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Has she resisted time stop?



Has the time stop affect someone with that high in magic resist?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Nov 10, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> Kratos can take attacks from someone who can lift the planet, can overpower said person and reacted to lightning.
> 
> The answer is clear. Kratos lifts the Emerald Weapon with one hand and beats the others to death with it.



Improvising now are we?


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## Crimson King (Nov 10, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> IIRC only Gilgamesh has feats of resisting time stop, so unless you have feats of Saber doing the same she can't.



Gilgamesh has an E in magic resist.


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## Cypher0120 (Nov 10, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> Kratos can take attacks from someone who can lift the planet, can overpower said person and reacted to lightning.
> 
> The answer is clear. Kratos lifts the Emerald Weapon with one hand and beats the others to death with it.



Timestop, Pandora's Omen then Laser Cannon round to the eyes says Hi.

Saber activates Avalon to get immunity for a while so Kratos is free to do whatever he wants until he gets sniped.

Samus does... what Samus does.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 10, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Improvising now are we?



Dinobot would approve


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Nov 10, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Gilgamesh has an E in magic resist.



He also has trinkets that boost that shit.


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## Big Bοss (Nov 10, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Gilgamesh has an E in magic resist.



So?

Man is simple feats of Saber showing she can resist time stop or she can't.


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## Crimson King (Nov 10, 2010)

Cypher0120 said:


> Timestop, Pandora's Omen then Laser Cannon round to the eyes says Hi.
> 
> Saber activates Avalon to get immunity for a while so Kratos is free to do whatever he wants until he gets sniped.
> 
> Samus does... what Samus does.



Doesn't Samus have a black hole launcher?


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## Crimson King (Nov 10, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> So?
> 
> Man is simple feats of Saber showing she can resist time stop or she can't.



If someone with an E in magic resist can, then someone with A would be able to do it easily.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 10, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Doesn't Samus have a black hole launcher?



depends on which version


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## Big Bοss (Nov 10, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> If someone with an E in magic resist can, then someone with A would be able to do it easily.



1. Because the person that has E in magic resist has a shit load of artifacts that can boost that.

2.Because you don't know what Gilgamesh did to resist the time stop.

3. Because Saber doesn't have any feat of resisting time stop.

Keyword feat.


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## Crimson King (Nov 10, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> depends on which version


So Samus solos if she gets all her weapons.


Grαhf said:


> 1. Because the person that has E in magic resist has a shit load of artifacts that can boost that.
> 
> 2.Because you don't know what Gilgamesh did to resist the time stop.
> 
> ...



I don't recall Gilgamesh puling any artifact out to cancel the timestop.

Again, there's the A Rank>E rank


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## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 10, 2010)

Dante can't stop time by the way if you're talking about Quicksilver 

Bangle of Time stops time but it only works on fodder and I don't remember any cutscene feats for it

there's a third time-manipulation item in DMC I think, but I don't remember what it was


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## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 10, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> So Samus solos if she gets all her weapons.



if it's pseudo-blackholes similar to Vong ones or Guyver ones (though those ones can become real black holes, given time), I doubt it'd be a match-winner here


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## Big Bοss (Nov 10, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> .
> I don't recall Gilgamesh puling any artifact out to cancel the timestop.
> 
> Again, there's the A Rank>E rank



So you don't know what he did, and again there is the feat thing.

I am not going to keep this argument but again is simple unless you have *feats* of Saber resisting time stop she can't


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## Crimson King (Nov 10, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> So you don't know what he did, and again there is the feat thing.
> 
> I am not going to keep this argument but again is simple unless you have *feats* of Saber resisting time stop she can't



Kinda moot now anyways if what CD says is true.


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## Big Bοss (Nov 10, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Kinda moot now anyways if what CD says is true.



Not really because this doesn't have to do anything with Dante but the fact of Saber resisting time stop when she doesn't have any feat for it.


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## Crimson King (Nov 10, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> if it's pseudo-blackholes similar to Vong ones or Guyver ones (though those ones can become real black holes, given time), I doubt it'd be a match-winner here



Right. So who knows alot about the Metroid series?


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## Crimson King (Nov 10, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> Not really because this doesn't have to do anything with Dante but the fact of Saber resisting time stop when she doesn't have any feat for it.



I meant for this match.

If the time stop thing comes up again, we'll talk about it there.


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## Hoshino Rika (Nov 10, 2010)

Cypher0120 said:


> Timestop, Pandora's Omen then Laser Cannon round to the eyes says Hi.
> 
> Saber activates Avalon to get immunity for a while so Kratos is free to do whatever he wants until he gets sniped.
> 
> Samus does... what Samus does.



Remind me again how many of these character hit with the force of a planet?

None?

Ok cool.


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## Big Bοss (Nov 10, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> Dante can't stop time by the way if you're talking about Quicksilver
> 
> Bangle of Time stops time but it only works on fodder and I don't remember any cutscene feats for it



This looks like time stop to me:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItTtRm6sZks[/YOUTUBE]


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## Hoshino Rika (Nov 10, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> This looks like time stop to me:
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItTtRm6sZks[/YOUTUBE]



Who cares? Nobody here can harm Kratos nor outspeed him.


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 10, 2010)

Saber resisted a localised time stop in Fate IIRC. Caster froze the space around her and she broke out quite easily.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 10, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> This looks like time stop to me:
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItTtRm6sZks[/YOUTUBE]



I used to think that too, until I realized falling rocks aren't all that fast.  Similar stuff has been pulled off in Kamen Rider Kabuto with regular Clock Up, and Clock Up certainly doesn't stop time. 

basically Quicksilver is Dante's version of Clock Up


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 10, 2010)

But yeah, Kratos wins. Nothing to see here, go home. Thread sucks if you can't fit all the combatants into the title. So on and so forth.


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## Big Bοss (Nov 10, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> I used to think that too, until I realized falling rocks aren't all that fast.  Similar stuff has been pulled off in Kamen Rider Kabuto with regular Clock Up, and Clock Up certainly doesn't stop time.
> 
> basically Quicksilver is Dante's version of Clock Up



 I see but IIRC even the description of the attack says he stops time, so?


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## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 10, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> I see but IIRC even the description of the attack says he stops time, so?



that's Bangle of Time's description, Quicksilver is described as basically super-fast movement for Dante while the enemies all slow down


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## Big Bοss (Nov 10, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> that's Bangle of Time's description, Quicksilver is described as basically super-fast movement for Dante while the enemies all slow down





> The Quicksilver Style is a time-controlling style appearing in Devil May Cry 3 which is obtained from Geryon. It allows Dante to move at lightning quick speeds relative to enemies and the environment[1], thus allowing him to experiment with different tactics and combos



That is the description of a wiki I found, while it seems it isn't fully time stop it still gives him a massive advantage in speed (don't know if the lightning speed is right)


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 10, 2010)

lightning quick speeds *relative to enemies and the environment*

Yeah, fancy language and metaphor.


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## Cypher0120 (Nov 10, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> Who cares? Nobody here can harm Kratos nor outspeed him.



Saber beating Hercules says Hi.



skiboydoggy said:


> But yeah, Kratos wins. Nothing to see here, go home. Thread sucks if you can't fit all the combatants into the title. So on and so forth.



My thread was better. It had Starkiller. >_>

Dante's in MvC3, better than Kratos's appearance in Soul Calibur.


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## Hoshino Rika (Nov 10, 2010)

Cypher0120 said:


> Saber beating Hercules says Hi.


Hercules doesn't show his legendary power as a servant. Possibly because Ilya doesn't have enough power to power him enough to lift the planet. Unless you can show me him doing so?

As far as we know, his Noble Phantasm only allows him 12 lives and not his augmented strength. Your point is moot.

There's also the point that in the mythology version that FSN follows, he might have lifted the sky instead of the planet (there are variations where Atlas lifts either). In God Of War, we saw Atlas lift the planet. We didn't in FSN. Obviously, lifting the sky would take a lot less effort than lifting the planet.

Kindly adress these points and show me FSN Hercules lift the Earth.


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## KaiserWombat (Nov 10, 2010)

Kratos auto-loses because actual Spartans >>>>>> him.


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## Cypher0120 (Nov 10, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> Hercules doesn't show his legendary power as a servant. Possibly because Ilya doesn't have enough power to power him enough to lift the planet. Unless you can show me him doing so?
> 
> As far as we know, his Noble Phantasm only allows him 12 lives and not his augmented strength. Your point is moot.
> 
> ...



And yet nothing about that shows anything about Kratos's durability.

Same with the Servants. What legend is there that shows King Arthur can make a giant beam of light with her sword to raze the surrounding area?

Where's Hercules' feat in God of War of lifting the planet? All we see hear is that he supposedly did the twelve labors. Kratos may have the ability to do that for a brief period of time with the chains... he's the one that has actual feats. Even still, Atlas only fully carried the world once the pillar that holds the world was broken.

Prior to being chained there by Kratos, the pillar was still partially holding it up. 


In fact, forget that. Where's Kratos's feats of resisting piercing and slashing attacks? All he has going for him is reaction speed, not movement speed. Saber and Dante can still take him on comfortably.


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## Hoshino Rika (Nov 10, 2010)

Cypher0120 said:


> And yet nothing about that shows anything about Kratos's durability.


Getting hit by real Hercules who has mentioned the labours and we've seen Atlas benchpressing the planet. Stop trying to cherrypick and actually play the game.




> Same with the Servants. What legend is there that shows King Arthur can make a giant beam of light with her sword to raze the surrounding area?


How is this relevant? This has nothing to do with Berserker.




> Where's Hercules' feat in God of War of lifting the planet? All we see hear is that he supposedly did the twelve labors. Kratos may have the ability to do that for a brief period of time with the chains... he's the one that has actual feats. Even still, Atlas only fully carried the world once the pillar that holds the world was broken.


What are you talking about?

Pillar was broken in Chains of Olympus. Before that, Atlas was in Tartarus but not carrying the world. Only after Kratos chained him did he do it.
Hence, Hercules could only do the 12 labours AFTER Chains of Olympus but BEFORE God Of War III. Seeing as how there are YEARS between the games, this works perfectly since Chains of Olympus happens about 5 years before God Of War I.

Hercules, according to the labours, lifted the planet. Kratos took hits from Hercules and was able to overpower him. This means that:

A. Kratos can take hints from someone who can lift a planet.
B. Kratos overpowered Hercules. Hence Kratos is stronger than Hercules.




> Prior to being chained there by Kratos, the pillar was still partially holding it up.


Your point is moot as explained earlier. There is no prior. 



In God of War: Chains of Olympus, the goddess Persephone develops a scheme in which she, with the aid of Atlas, will destroy the pillar, causing the entire world to fall into chaos. 

Atlas was the one who DESTROYED the pillar. So either Atlas is lifting the world or the pillar is. Since the labours explicitely state Hercules took over for Atlas, Hercules lifted the world.



> In fact, forget that. Where's Kratos's feats of resisting piercing and slashing attacks? All he has going for him is reaction speed, not movement speed. Saber and Dante can still take him on comfortably.


You mean the people who can't harm Kratos at all due to his massive durabillity? Also learn physics. Blunt and pierce is the same thing just on a smaller surface. If your resistance to blunt damage (IE: taking attacks from someone who can benchpress planets) is strong enough, then low tier bullshit like Excalibur and Sparda are not even strong enough to pierce his skin.

Show me Saber or Dante damaging someone who can take attacks from someone who can lift planets. Don't say Berserker because Berserker has never fought himself in canon and we don't even know if the FSN version of Hercules lifted the planet or the sky.


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## Hoshino Rika (Nov 10, 2010)

More info:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLv8Wj_M10g&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]

Hercules mentions that while Kratos was being crowned God Of War, he was being sent to get an apple. He's talking about his 11th labour, the Apple Of The Hesperides.



Finally making his way to the Garden of the Hesperides, Heracles tricked Atlas into retrieving some of the golden apples for him, by offering to hold up the heavens for a little while (Atlas was able to take them as, in this version, he was the father or otherwise related to the Hesperides)

In the God Of War version, he holds the planet (though several versions of the story say he holds the planet aswell). 6min 50 seconds. Kratos overpowers Hercules. Both of them have one of the Nemean Cestus (equal footing in weaponry) and punch eachother. Kratos's punch nullify's Hercules's and knocks him back.

Anything more to do add or is Kratos soloing enough for you?


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## Cypher0120 (Nov 10, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> Snip-wank.



So now Kratos's skin is impenetrable to the weapons of the others? Really?

Bullshit.

Kratos doesn't tank direct hits from Atlas, nor Cronus.

Where's his defense against a bullet to the eyes? Or a transdimensional cut from Yamato. Or hell, just plain 2 Bangles of Time from DMC 1 and 2, and Quicksilver...

You say in Chains of Olympus, he can tank something that can hold up the world, yet in God of War 1, he dies from a somewhat hypersonic pillar thrown by Ares. Need I remind you that every single QTE involving Atlas is not Kratos tanking anything, but avoiding and dodging Atlas.

And in God of War 2, Kratos struggles greatly against just two of Atlas's fingers. He never faced the full strength of a Titan like Atlas bearing down on him.

Saying Excalibur won't harm him.... oh, let's see. Gilgamesh's armor tanked his own Ea, which has trans-dimensional properties as well, and yet Saber cut straight through it. 

Prove to me that Kratos's durability is more than building-level.


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## Ky Hakubi (Nov 10, 2010)

Ok Hoshino, as I haven't had the oppurtunity to play Chains of Olympus (and have failed thus far to find videos of Atlas' appearance in said game on youtube) the only attacks by him I recall Kratos taking was being squeezed between his thumb and forefinger, which is nowhere approaching even a fraction of the power he used to hold the planet.

Second, the mythology of God of War has been severely altered from it's original forms. Hercules makes mention of being sent for the Apple, but no mention of using Atlas to get it for him, and as such certainly makes no mention of holding his burden. As such, there is no proof that he held the planet and therefore his greatest strength feat is when he lifts the balcony and shakes you around a bit.

Thirdly, as far as I know piercing needs far less force to penetrate and cause damage. Take professional boxers. They can tank a few full force punches without issue, yet a single needle will penetrate and draw blood with absolutely no effort at all. While the forces involved are exponetially greater, my point remains the same. Since there's no undeniable proof that Kratos tanks blows from planet-hoisting opponents, his durability isn't at that level.

While I'm not argueing against his massive strength and durability on the whole (because it is considerable), I'm contesting his ability to shrug of attacks of the magnitude you're suggesting. If anyone's got some vids of him tanking a full on punch or something from Atlas, I'll concede the point, but I also fail to recall him bouncing swords and such off his skin. He can get stabbed and sliced well enough.

Also, if Kratos truly had lightning speed reaction, then nothing in the games should ever touch him, as I doubt anything save maybe Hermes and Zeus himself would be able to move at those speeds. As such, all he does is get the Golden Fleece in the path of the lightning, which I don't recall him doing in a cutscene. Therefore his playing ball-lightning tennis with Zeus is gameplay and a moot point.

Again, if anyone has a vid of him dodging lightning in a vid, I'll concede. Until then, he's got his hands full in this fight. Dante and Samus both have a decent arsenal of weapons and techniques to keep him busy, though it's possible he can reflect Aran's beam attacks with the Fleece. 

The only absolute I can state with confidence though is Emerald goes down. Hard.


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## Hoshino Rika (Nov 10, 2010)

Cypher0120 said:


> So now Kratos's skin is impenetrable to the weapons of the others? Really?
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> ...


Being able to tank attacks from someone who benchpresses planets.
I like how you're just calling out attacks without proving they can actually hurt someone of his level. You know why?

Because Dante never fought someone as strong as Kratos in his fodder verse.


> You say in Chains of Olympus, he can tank something that can hold up the world, yet in God of War 1, he dies from a somewhat hypersonic pillar thrown by Ares. Need I remind you that every single QTE involving Atlas is not Kratos tanking anything, but avoiding and dodging Atlas.


Atlas is also a lot stronger than Hercules.

1. He's been lifting the planet for YEARS.
2. He lifted it with three arms while using the fourth to attack Kratos. Yes, he can remove 1/4th of his power and still comfortably hold the planet.

What part of this is hard of you to understand?



> And in God of War 2, Kratos struggles greatly against just two of Atlas's fingers. He never faced the full strength of a Titan like Atlas bearing down on him.


Read above.



> Saying Excalibur won't harm him.... oh, let's see. Gilgamesh's armor tanked his own Ea, which has trans-dimensional properties as well, and yet Saber cut straight through it.


I'm not seeing any benchpressing planets in that description. Is it me or can't you prove anything? I proved my case with footage from the game. Your turn.



> Prove to me that Kratos's durability is more than building-level.


Check above. He took attacks from Mr Planet Benchpresser up there. If you don't accept the proof, that's fine. I'll accept your concession.



Ky Hakubi said:


> Ok Hoshino, as I haven't had the oppurtunity to play Chains of Olympus (and have failed thus far to find videos of Atlas' appearance in said game on youtube) the only attacks by him I recall Kratos taking was being squeezed between his thumb and forefinger, which is nowhere approaching even a fraction of the power he used to hold the planet.


Hercules lifting planet.


> Second, the mythology of God of War has been severely altered from it's original forms. Hercules makes mention of being sent for the Apple, but no mention of using Atlas to get it for him, and as such certainly makes no mention of holding his burden. As such, there is no proof that he held the planet and therefore his greatest strength feat is when he lifts the balcony and shakes you around a bit.


Atlas is in God Of War.
Game Atlas is the same as mythology Atlas.
Hercules is in God Of War.
Game Hercules is the same as real Hercules.
Hercules mentioned labour where he lifts the planet.

What part of this is hard?



> Thirdly, as far as I know piercing needs far less force to penetrate and cause damage. Take professional boxers. They can tank a few full force punches without issue, yet a single needle will penetrate and draw blood with absolutely no effort at all. While the forces involved are exponetially greater, my point remains the same. Since there's no undeniable proof that Kratos tanks blows from planet-hoisting opponents, his durability isn't at that level.


Yes, there is.

You can deny it's there but I've posted the video that says otherwise. Your concession is accepted.



> While I'm not argueing against his massive strength and durability on the whole (because it is considerable), I'm contesting his ability to shrug of attacks of the magnitude you're suggesting. If anyone's got some vids of him tanking a full on punch or something from Atlas, I'll concede the point, but I also fail to recall him bouncing swords and such off his skin. He can get stabbed and sliced well enough.


Wrong. Getting stabbed by enemies = gameplay mechanics.
As I've said before, Hercules lifted the world. He mentions it himself. You denying it has no value since the proof is there.

When did Zeus ever get stabbed in a cutscene after becoming a God?
Oh right, when Zeus (a god) stabbed him with the Sword Of Olympus (legendary godkilling sword). See a correlation there?

Not to mention, Kratos had the power of Hope. This is used as a handwave for his super human god-killing bullshit.


> Also, if Kratos truly had lightning speed reaction, then nothing in the games should ever touch him, as I doubt anything save maybe Hermes and Zeus himself would be able to move at those speeds. As such, all he does is get the Golden Fleece in the path of the lightning, which I don't recall him doing in a cutscene. Therefore his playing ball-lightning tennis with Zeus is gameplay and a moot point.


I like how you call this gameplay but fodders hurting Kratos is not. Hypocrite.



> Again, if anyone has a vid of him dodging lightning in a vid, I'll concede. Until then, he's got his hands full in this fight. Dante and Samus both have a decent arsenal of weapons and techniques to keep him busy, though it's possible he can reflect Aran's beam attacks with the Fleece.


More like he stomps effortlessly.

Here's another point. Kratos absorbed Hades's soul. He is now Lord Of The Underworld. When he dies, he goes to Hades but he can walk straight out in his capacity as Hades. How are they gonna kill him again?

Hell, the epilogue even hints that Kratos can't die since his tomb is empty with a trail of blood going leading away from it. This would mean he survived his own suicide on the hands of the Blade Of Olympus which killed him last time this happened and he had to timefuck his way out of that problem.

So yeah, even if these feeble characters can HARM Kratos (which they can't), killing him only midly inconviences him.


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## BenTennyson (Nov 10, 2010)

*sigh*

I wish I had the time to go into multi-quote breakdown post mode. But courses are eating me alive right now.

I lol'd at the notion of Kratos being at mere building level durability however. (It's more like mountain level conservatively. no bullshit.) 

And yeah, I'll say again, the lightning is legit. It has nothing to do with gameplay as he blocked it with the BoO just as it was fired in a cutscene and reacted to a 'lightning bullet' later in another cutscene in GoW3. Even a mid-tier Olympian like Artemis has shown lightning speed reactions (yes.) As for the 'nothing should touch him' bit, well, considering what I just said, and that other than immortals he hardly gets hit by anything, it just means his attackers are that damn fast or as in a few instances, catch him completely unaware--usually a combination of both.

Seriously, he has such a collection of feats from so many console and handheld games, canon comics and a canon official novel as well, that I'm not surprised that you guys aren't on top of it all.


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## Ky Hakubi (Nov 10, 2010)

Nice way of avoiding the issue Hoshiko. Hercules doesn't state he held the planet. He just made a referance to the labor. There's no proof he didn't get the Apple himself in this universe, and apparently all of the Atlas fight was dodging, therefore Kratos never tanked an attack from Atlas.

You seemed confused by the fact that the God of War incarnations are not the same as their mythological counterparts.

So yeah, give me a video of Kratos resisting planet level strength from Atlas himself. There's no proof that Hercules held the planet, so he has no feats for it. Talking about an apple is not proof of this, so don't even try using that as proof as you have been. 

I also never stated that fodder should be able to hurt Kratos. Stop putting words in my mouth. The characters in this fight are far beyond fodder in any case.

Kratos walking back out of Hades is an option, but unless the GoW Underworld has connections to other worlds (which I seriously doubt), then Kratos isn't getting back to the fight. Something tells me The Room of Spirit and Time doesn't have a door to his universe. Kratos might not be able to permanently die, but he can still lose to ringout.


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## BenTennyson (Nov 10, 2010)

Btw. The novel did indeed state that hercules held up the world in place of atlas for a time.

Considering he completed the labors anyway, and that unless specifically needed to be altered for the story that the myths hold to true form, this should have been more than enough.


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## Hoshino Rika (Nov 10, 2010)

I see no counter evidence; Concession accepted.


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## Cypher0120 (Nov 10, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> I see no counter evidence; Concession accepted.



I see no evidence of Kratos being able to resist a trans-dimensional cut from Yamato.

Or resisting a time-freeze.

Or surviving a bullet through the eyes. Let alone a Spiral Sniper round. Or Gatling Gun Fire. Or a Laser cannon.

Don't claim victory just because some people didn't reply for a while.


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## Hoshino Rika (Nov 10, 2010)

Not seeing anything that can top being punched by someone who can lift a planet.
Try again bro.


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## Cypher0120 (Nov 10, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> Not seeing anything that can top being punched by someone who can lift a planet.
> Try again bro.



Kratos isn't catching him.

What's preventing Dante from sniping him long range while time is stopped?


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## Hoshino Rika (Nov 10, 2010)

Cypher0120 said:


> Kratos isn't catching him.
> 
> What's preventing Dante from sniping him long range while time is stopped?



Nothing.

What's to prove that Dante can actually hurt him?

Nothing.


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## Cypher0120 (Nov 10, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> Nothing.
> 
> What's to prove that Dante can actually hurt him?
> 
> Nothing.



I haven't seen any feats of Kratos resisting time stop. Or a bullet through the eyes. Or are you saying his eyes are Superman level now?

Nor do I see Kratos tanking a trans-dimensional cut from Yamato. No defense there.

A Laser Cannon from Pandora straight through the head? You'll still say Kratos can tank that? Where's his tanking feats?


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## Hoshino Rika (Nov 10, 2010)

Cypher0120 said:


> I haven't seen any feats of Kratos resisting time stop. Or a bullet through the eyes. Or are you saying his eyes are Superman level now?
> 
> Nor do I see Kratos tanking a trans-dimensional cut from Yamato. No defense there.
> 
> A Laser Cannon from Pandora straight through the head? You'll still say Kratos can tank that? Where's his tanking feats?



He tanked a guy than can benchpress a planet. Do you have any idea how big the power gap is?

You think a measly fodder level sword or a laser can cope with the WEIGHT OF A FUCKING PLANET?


----------



## kageyame (Nov 10, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> He tanked a guy than can benchpress a planet. Do you have any idea how big the power gap is?
> 
> You think a measly fodder level sword or a laser can cope with the WEIGHT OF A FUCKING PLANET?



Show Hercules holding the planet.

Or 

Show Kratos Tanking Hits from Atlas

because neither of them happens in the games.

Most the myths in GoW are way diferent that the actual Mythology, so there no proof that the labors played out the same, as was said before.

And I'm not even considering the fact, that Atlas wasn't holding the world, he was holding the *Sky*, and if you can prove how much the Sky weights I would like to see the calcs.


And lastly, if you insist that just because he is the same Hercules from Mythology ans all the feats should mantain, then you have to accepts that Saber also beat said Hercules, and even more powerful, thanks to the Mad Enhancement of Berserker Class...


----------



## Cypher0120 (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm questioning the canonicity of the novels.

Considering how the games are primary canon, and yet the novel has no meeting of Kratos and Hades to gain the Army of Hades spell, that's just one contradiction.

I'm still looking through the rest of it.


----------



## Knight (Nov 10, 2010)

skiboydoggy said:


> Saber resisted a localised time stop in Fate IIRC. Caster froze the space around her and she broke out quite easily.



That's more like ME's statsis not a true time stop.


----------



## Hoshino Rika (Nov 10, 2010)

kageyame said:


> Show Hercules holding the planet.
> 
> Or
> 
> ...



You need to play god of war and  read my posts better because all you're doing is repeating bullshit I already adressed. Have a neg.



Cypher0120 said:


> I'm questioning the canonicity of the novels.
> 
> Considering how the games are primary canon, and yet the novel has no meeting of Kratos and Hades to gain the Army of Hades spell, that's just one contradiction.
> 
> I'm still looking through the rest of it.



Cypher being more canon that the authors because he can't win.


----------



## kageyame (Nov 10, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> You need to play god of war and  read my posts better because all you're doing is repeating bullshit I already adressed. Have a neg.



the problem is, you never adressed, you avoided, which is quite diferent.

And i don't recall anyone before call on the fact that canonically Atlas is holding the sky, and that alone makes the labors totally diferent.

And if it soo easy to prove your points, why don't you provide videos? because saying to play the games (which i have played, btw) is not how you should go about it.


----------



## God (Nov 10, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> A rank Magic Resist says no to it.



It ain't magic, bro.

Dante wins via timestop


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 10, 2010)

Cubey said:


> Dante wins via timestop



One which works only on fodder and has no cutscene feats that I know of and another which isn't time-stop at all.  I heard there's a third one, would you like to tell me about that? 

Dante ain't time-fucking shit unless you have proof


----------



## Cypher0120 (Nov 10, 2010)

Both of you, address the Kratos wank before tearing out each others' throats first.


----------



## God (Nov 10, 2010)

How the hell is any one of them not time-stop? And yeah, it doesn't effect enemies, maybe the creators weren't thinking when they came up with that. Prove time-stop wont work.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 10, 2010)

Cubey said:


> How the hell is any one of them not time-stop? And yeah, it doesn't effect enemies, maybe the creators weren't thinking when they came up with that. Prove time-stop wont work.



Quicksilver isn't time stop, the description itself states that.  Its single cutscene feat isn't enough to prove it, which I said on the last page.  Bangle of Time has _no_ cutscene feat that I remember

Burden of Proof is on you, Cubert


----------



## God (Nov 10, 2010)

Geryon the Timesteed was a time manipulator, and Quicksilver was its power originally. Where's the problem?


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 10, 2010)

Making falling rocks look frozen isn't enough to say it's a timestop is the problem.  You do know there are degrees of time manipulation, right?  Time-slow is the best thing I'm willing to accept until proven otherwise.  Similar shit has been seen with normal Clock Up in Kamen Rider Kabuto, and that sure as hell isn't time stop.


----------



## God (Nov 10, 2010)

The rocks stopped in the end. Obviously the whole nearly get hit in the head and then slowly stop the rocks in a "badass" way was done for a coolness effect. That doesn't disprove the fact that it was intended to be, and is, time manipulation. It is as a limited level, but enough to immobilize an opponent long enough for decapitation


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 10, 2010)

Still not time stop, Cubert


----------



## Cypher0120 (Nov 10, 2010)

Cubey said:


> The rocks stopped in the end. Obviously the whole nearly get hit in the head and then slowly stop the rocks in a "badass" way was done for a coolness effect. That doesn't disprove the fact that it was intended to be, and is, time manipulation. It is as a limited level, but enough to immobilize an opponent long enough for decapitation



Time or not, that's still long enough to kill the others, right? Saber's Magic Resistance may or may not help against that unlike that other featless guy, but barring time manipulation... Dante still has a bunch of other tools to use.


----------



## God (Nov 10, 2010)

It clearly is, CD. And yeah, he has other shit as well.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 10, 2010)

Clearly my ass

that's Clock Up level at the most


----------



## God (Nov 10, 2010)

Isn't Clock Up time manipulation? 

What is there to argue here? Quicksilver was used by a time manipulating demon, you got a clip of it. In-game, it stops time as well. No point in trying to deny it.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 10, 2010)

Clock Up doesn't stop time, numbnuts 

In-game it slows down the enemies, not stop them.  The description also disagrees with you.  

Making falling rocks look frozen doesn't require time-stop, and since that happens to be its only cutscene showing, well it doesn't look good for your side of the argument


----------



## God (Nov 10, 2010)

LMFAO

"Making falling rocks *look* frozen"

Could this argument be any worse? The fact that the rocks WERE frozen in time, the power came FROM a time manipulating horse called Geryon the TIMEsteed, there's an artifact called the Bangle of TIME, and the CHRONOheart in which both their descriptions discuss time manipulation, make your side practically non-existent 

So, time-stop > decapitation > win. Excellent.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 10, 2010)

again, time-manipulation=/=time stop 

Quicksilver isn't described as stopping time, falling rocks aren't that fucking fast so making them look frozen doesn't imply time stop, only that he's moving so fast that they might as well be.  Bangle of Time only works on fodder unless you have cutscenes, and provide proof for Chronoheart as well.

You are a terrible debater BTW


----------



## God (Nov 10, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> again, time-manipulation=/=time stop
> 
> Quicksilver isn't described as stopping time, *falling rocks aren't that fucking fast so making them look frozen doesn't imply time stop,* only that he's moving so fast that they might as well be.  Bangle of Time only works on fodder unless you have cutscenes, and provide proof for Chronoheart as well.
> 
> You are a terrible debater BTW



Haven't slept all day. At this point I'm debating out of boredom.

Anyways, the bolded is you twisting what was plainly shown to meet your own ends. The fucking rocks froze, there's nothing more to say. Time-manipulation doesn't have to be timestop, but in this case it is.

Moving on, what are any of them going to do once immobilized?


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 10, 2010)

falling rocks are slow as fuck, Cubey, and making them look frozen isn't impressive at all

It's like that scene in Hyperion where Kassad wears the Phase Suit and sees a bird 'frozen' while in the process of flapping its wings.  The bird actually isn't frozen and Kassad is so fast that in his view, the bird will complete the flapping of its wings if he gave it say, a few minutes, maybe even hours.


----------



## God (Nov 10, 2010)

Ack, okay, moving on, when he uses time-_slow_ what is anyone gonna do to stop their heads getting cut off?


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Nov 10, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> falling rocks are slow as fuck, Cubey, and making them look frozen isn't impressive at all
> 
> It's like that scene in Hyperion where Kassad wears the Phase Suit and sees a bird 'frozen' while in the process of flapping its wings.  The bird actually isn't frozen and Kassad is so fast that in his view, the bird will complete the flapping of its wings if he gave it say, a few minutes, maybe even hours.



That scene is only impressive because there's an Ouster laser snailing to him.

Laser>>>Falling rocks.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 10, 2010)

Slow-mo laser dodging (real lasers, not the prissy KHII ones) for the win


----------



## Dariustwinblade (Nov 11, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> So Samus solos if she gets all her weapons.
> 
> 
> I don't recall Gilgamesh puling any artifact out to cancel the timestop.
> ...



stop putting Gameplay elements and states with no feats as evidence.

Or Else Dante can move at lightning speed. Resist Absolute Zero, and lol at Hellfire.

OR become INVINCIBLE AT Dreadnought mode or Majin Trigger mode.


----------



## Dariustwinblade (Nov 11, 2010)

Dante uses, Jackpot!

/thread


----------



## Ky Hakubi (Nov 11, 2010)

BenTennyson said:


> Btw. The novel did indeed state that hercules held up the world in place of atlas for a time.
> 
> Considering he completed the labors anyway, and that unless specifically needed to be altered for the story that the myths hold to true form, this should have been more than enough.



If the novels are in fact canon, then I can accept that Herc held the world. Using a vid that doesn't have but a single offhand referance to something from the character's mythology as proof of unwitnessed feats as Hoshiko has been isn't going to convince me, especially as I see no reason to believe that Hercules' labors went as written in Greek mythology, since the writers skewed so much of the mythology for the game. Based on the encounters of the game, few of the stories from mythology actually proceed as they were written (told) centuries ago. 

Kratos kills Medusa. There goes Perseus' tale. He obtains the Goldeen Fleece. What happened to Jason? He opens Pandora's Box unleashing the evils unto the world, which is the basis for the entire narrative of the third game. What happened to Pandora's story? Oh yeah, she was locked in a maze built by Deadalus. Given the liberties already taken, I'm not convinced that Hercules held the world unless it showed it in a video, unless the novels are canon. If they are, since it stated that he did, then I will concede that point.

If there's a cutscene of Kratos reacting to lightning (which I have no reason to believe that Zeus isn't throwing real lightning) as you are suggesting, then I concede that point as well. any chance you can post it Ben?

But still, just because Kratos can take a punch of that magnitude doesn't mean he's completely impervious to everything. It's a hell of a lot easier to tank a punch to the face than it is a sword.

I don't recall Kratos being immune to time-fuckery either (which time slow still is, even if it's not a complete stop). Lightning reaction times aren't going to help him there.


----------



## Dariustwinblade (Nov 11, 2010)

Btw how much does the sky weight?


----------



## Crimson King (Nov 11, 2010)

Dariustwinblade said:


> herp derp



Thank you for showing us you have no idea what you're talking about.


----------



## Cypher0120 (Nov 11, 2010)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Btw how much does the sky weight?



Go ask Chicken Little.


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 11, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Right. So who knows alot about the Metroid series?



Belatedly present.

The Darkburst isn't a real black hole, it's a very violent and temporary rift into Dark Aether's dimension or a similar one. Enemies killed by it are shown being ripped into tiny pieces and sucked into the rift, but it has no cutscene feats and very tough enemies can take multiple shots during gameplay, although they still have that 'ripped apart and pulled in' death animation when they go down. Even if the killing power of the suction (Which extends at least several meters beyond the rift) is unquantifiable, the dimensional rift part should certainly work as advertised if Samus can knock her opponents into it.


----------



## Hoshino Rika (Nov 11, 2010)

kageyame said:


> the problem is, you never adressed, you avoided, which is quite diferent.
> 
> And i don't recall anyone before call on the fact that canonically Atlas is holding the sky, and that alone makes the labors totally diferent.
> 
> And if it soo easy to prove your points, why don't you provide videos? because saying to play the games (which i have played, btw) is not how you should go about it.


Reread the previous post. Herc mentions him going after the Apple.

Do we have any reason to doubt it didn't happen like in the legend?


----------



## kageyame (Nov 11, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> Reread the previous post. Herc mentions him going after the Apple.
> 
> Do we have any reason to doubt it didn't happen like in the legend?



Yes, because in the legend he is not holding the *World* he is holding the *sky* so it won't fall on earth, and you are dodgind this the entire argument.

If this part is diferent, why would the rest be equal? the burden of proof is on you that the labor occurred on the same way as the myth.


----------



## Hoshino Rika (Nov 11, 2010)

kageyame said:


> Yes, because in the legend he is not holding the *World* he is holding the *sky* so it won't fall on earth, and you are dodgind this the entire argument.
> 
> If this part is diferent, why would the rest be equal? the burden of proof is on you that the labor occurred on the same way as the myth.



Learn Greek Mythology.

Myths have several variations. To give an example, the 11th Labour has the following ones:

1. The Apple is normal.
2. The Apple is made out of gold.
3. The Apple is the same Apple Eris threw to start the Trojan War.
4. Atlas held the sky.
5. Atlas held the planet.
6. Atlas went to get the Apple because the Hesperides were in love with him.
7. Atlas went to get the Apple because the Hesperides were his daughters.
8. Atlas willingly took back his burden.
9. Atlas was tricked to taking it back.
10. Atlas was petrified by Zeus for this betrayal, becoming the Atlas mountains.
11. Atlas was petrified by the head of Medusa.

All of these accurate since Greek myths are VERBAL STORIES which changed as they were told depending on who told them, what point they were trying to make and wich region in Greece you were when they told you.

God Of War took the one where he holds the planet as is clearly shown. There is no reason to doubt. Again, learn about mythology before you run your mouth.


----------



## kageyame (Nov 11, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> Learn Greek Mythology.
> 
> Myths have several variations. To give an example, the 11th Labour has the following ones:
> 
> ...



Funny, besides the game, there's no indication that Atlas ever hold the world, since it would make no sence, as it's punishment from Zeus was exactly eternally separate Gaia (earth) and Uranos(heavens).

The reason some people think he hold the world happens much latter, (on 1500), because a map of the world used Atlas as a drawing, but intead of holding the Heavens, he was holding a map of known wolrd, (which wasn't even similar to the Greek world, BTW)

So, perhaps you should learn your myths, before calling someone on it.

And again we fall on the topic at hand, the myth plays totaly different in GoW, show proof or concede, simple as that.


----------



## Hoshino Rika (Nov 11, 2010)

Try again bro.

The myth was popularised before the map was made. Hence why you have several legendary heroes like Hercules and Theseus interacting with him.

The myth doesn't play out differently. Please prove it does. Show me how it played out differently because otherwise, Occam's razor says I'm right.


----------



## kageyame (Nov 11, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> Try again bro.
> 
> The myth was popularised before the map was made. Hence why you have several legendary heroes like Hercules and Theseus interacting with him.
> 
> The myth doesn't play out differently. Please prove it does. Show me how it played out differently because otherwise, Occam's razor says I'm right.



Show us your version of the myth with a reason why would Atlas hold the world instead of sky, 
So far you only using blanquet statements with no proof whatowever, if your version of the myth is so common, it shouldn't be hard to provide proof.


----------



## Hoshino Rika (Nov 11, 2010)

kageyame said:


> Show us your version of the myth with a reason why would Atlas hold the world instead of sky,
> So far you only using blanquet statements with no proof whatowever, if your version of the myth is so common, it shouldn't be hard to provide proof.



He did shrug of a hit from the King

Not common amirite?

Also, stop shifting the Burden Of Proof. I've already proved he did the labours and he mentions the 11th Labour.

You're the one who says he didn't lift it despite the myth saying he did.

Prove your case instead of acting cocky and going DUR HUR YOU'RE WRONG. I have no evidence on your part.

Either post evidence related to God Of War of concede. I'm waiting.


----------



## kageyame (Nov 11, 2010)

Ok, I ask for evidence of A, and you provide evidenceof B.

You didn't provide proof far what I asked, the images you shown are all recent, excluding the very 1st one, which is a statue, and gues what Atlas is holding on the Statue? Yes, the heavens... (well, I guess you didn't even know that that is the despiction of heavens, which is a globe with the constelations drawn on it)

I'm not shifting the burden of proof, it was always yours and you haven't provide any valid so far.

you want the despiction of myth, here we go:

wikypedia:


"... Atlas continues to be a commonly used icon in western culture, as a symbol of strength or stoic endurance. He is often shown kneeling on one knee while supporting an enormous round globe on his back and shoulders. The globe originally represented the celestial sphere of ancient astronomy, rather than the earth. The use of the term atlas as a name for collections of terrestrial maps and the modern understanding of the earth as a sphere have combined to inspire the many depictions of Atlas' burden as the earth. ..."

enciclopedia Myticha:

(again, no mention of the world, just the heavens...)

Mythography:
Link removed
(again, desciption of him holding the sky, not world)

Aside from the game, and some modern art, were's you proof form Atlas suporting the World instead of the heavens.

which comes back you our main point, there no proof _how_ the labors were done in the end, specially considering that Atlas is in the underworld by God of War timeline, instead of near the garden Hesperides...


----------



## Hoshino Rika (Nov 11, 2010)

Your point is moot. It's a variation and no wikipedia article is going to convince me otherwise.

Not to mention, the makers mentioned the labour for a reason. They obviously know mythology so they knew what they were implying.

Why are you acting like you know better?


----------



## kageyame (Nov 11, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> Your point is moot. It's a variation and no wikipedia article is going to convince me otherwise.
> 
> Not to mention, the makers mentioned the labour for a reason. They obviously know mythology so they knew what they were implying.
> 
> Why are you acting like you know better?




Are you the developer now? so why are you assuming what they think? 

But it was a nice cop out from your part, concession accepted.


----------



## Hoshino Rika (Nov 11, 2010)

kageyame said:


> Are you the developer now? so why are you assuming what they think?
> 
> But it was a nice cop out from your part, concession accepted.



You apparently are since you're putting words in their mouth.

Let's look at the amount of evidence I've brought: video's, pictures and text.

You: BOOHOO IT CAN'T BE THE SAME BECAUSE THAT WOULD MAKE KRATOS TOO STRONG.

The only one conceeding here is you bro. Stop being so cocky and show me some real evidence. Where are you video's?

Oh right, they don't exist because you're fucking wrong. Occam's Razor says I'm right and the Burden of proof is on you to show Hercules didn't do it.

Show me. You can't just tell me I've conceeded when you've been losing this debate this entire time. What are you, a child?


----------



## Sephiroth (Nov 11, 2010)

What kind of match up is this? :/


----------



## Hoshino Rika (Nov 11, 2010)

Sephiroth said:


> What kind of match up is this? :/



A match that Kratos wins casually.


----------



## kageyame (Nov 11, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> You apparently are since you're putting words in their mouth.
> 
> Let's look at the amount of evidence I've brought: video's, pictures and text.
> 
> ...



When did I put anything in the developers mouth? show when I said they did something.

I've put enough proof that Real mythology and the events of GoW plays radically diferent, but it's not my problem if your ego prevents you from accepting it, after all  3 diferent sites (2 of those related specifically to mythology) > your fanfiction.

Ocram Razor would only be valid if all other events in mythology played the same, but Alas, they _almost never did_, so you don't have a case.

And lastly, you don't prove a negative, perhaps beside trying to insult others, you actually tried to debunk my points this would be more productive.

And call other a child is a very mature thing to do in a forum.


----------



## Hoshino Rika (Nov 11, 2010)

1. What proof? What part of "it's a variation" don't you understand? In some versions he lives the sky, in others he lifts the Earth. That all depends on how it was translated, when and where.

2. I have already proven that Hercules did the 12 labours and that Atlas lifts the planet in GoW hence Hercules did too. Your argument is that the 12 labours didn't happen in GoW like in the myth. I want you to prove this. No negative here.

Learn how burden of proof works.


----------



## Cypher0120 (Nov 11, 2010)

Still no durability feat.

Even if Kratos can hold up the world, that means jack shit if he can't take the same amount of punishment. He will not have planet-level durability.

Sniper round to the eyes.


----------



## Hoshino Rika (Nov 11, 2010)

Cypher0120 said:


> Still no durability feat.
> 
> Even if Kratos can hold up the world, that means jack shit if he can't take the same amount of punishment. He will not have planet-level durability.
> 
> Sniper round to the eyes.



He took hits from Hercules, the said planet-lifter.

Kratos has planet level durabillity.


----------



## Cypher0120 (Nov 11, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> He took hits from Hercules, the said planet-lifter.
> 
> Kratos has planet level durabillity.



And your proof that every single hit from Hercules can do anything to the world?


----------



## kageyame (Nov 11, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> 1. What proof? What part of "it's a variation" don't you understand? In some versions he lives the sky, in others he lifts the Earth. That all depends on how it was translated, when and where.
> 
> 2. I have already proven that Hercules did the 12 labours and that Atlas lifts the planet in GoW hence Hercules did too. Your argument is that the 12 labours didn't happen in GoW like in the myth. I want you to prove this. No negative here.
> 
> Learn how burden of proof works.



Again, show me one variation in which he lift the earth, so far you shown none beside some pictures that I already proven have nothing to do with the myth itself, but rather are interpretations born after 15th/16th century. You're yet to provide proof of the myth itself based on your personal interpretation, show some lore, some book or literary work despicting your version of the myth, or concede the point.

now back at the labors, (yet again), we don't know anything about them  besides that they were done. How did hercules did it, how did Atlas decide to go along with hercules requeirements?  Atlas wasn't even in the correct place, by GoW standards, but you conveniently ignore this time and again.

All the videos show Kratos being schooled by Atlas, and winning against an hercules that, by the game feats, can be imobilized in a small amount of earth, (how did this happens if the can hold the world is a wonder...)

I cannont prove something that *we both didn't see*, (that why you can't prove a negative, btw), and Ocram Razor that you keep spouthing don't fit because in most of the cases the events in the myths don't happen even similar to the game, why just one that is convenient to you would play out exact the same? Actualy Occran Razor would say that it plays off diferent as well...

(I would only be able to reply tomorrow, so I guess this discussion will have to waith until them.)


----------



## Hoshino Rika (Nov 11, 2010)

Cypher0120 said:


> And your proof that every single hit from Hercules can do anything to the world?



Why would the guy that can lift the planet not use his entire power while bloodlusted?

The intro makes it clear that Hercules hates the living fuck out of Kratos. He's not pulling his punches.


----------



## Hoshino Rika (Nov 11, 2010)

kageyame said:


> Again, show me one variation in which he lift the earth, so far you shown none beside some pictures that I already proven have nothing to do with the myth itself, but rather are interpretations born after 15th/16th century. You're yet to provide proof of the myth itself based on your personal interpretation, show some lore, some book or literary work despicting your version of the myth, or concede the point.


Encyclopedia of greek mythes and stories and Greek And Roman Myths. Two books used by history teachers in their training. Both of them mention this variation. Excuse me if I take their word over fucking wikipedia .



> now back at the labors, (yet again), we don't know anything about them  besides that they were done. How did hercules did it, how did Atlas decide to go along with hercules requeirements?  Atlas wasn't even in the correct place, by GoW standards, but you conveniently ignore this time and again.


He wasn't? He's lifting the planet. He was chained there 5 years before God Of War I. Hercules did the labour at the start of God Of War II (while you were being crowned God Of War, I was sent to retrieve an apple). Atlas is at the correct place. You have no idea what you're talking about. Decide? Atlas has no way to decide. He is chained by the chains of Olympus. He can't refuse.


> All the videos show Kratos being schooled by Atlas, and winning against an hercules that, by the game feats, can be imobilized in a small amount of earth, (how did this happens if the can hold the world is a wonder...)


1. Atlas is obviously way stronger than a mere planet lifter. He was casually throwing chunks of MOUNTAIN at the gods during the Great War.
2. Immobilized? Kratos HIT the chunk down with his own strength and started pounding away at Hercules's FACE. You try lifting yourself when you're constantly being smacked in the face by an iron knuckle going at a force that can lift a planet.



> I cannont prove something that *we both didn't see*, (that why you can't prove a negative, btw), and Ocram Razor that you keep spouthing don't fit because in most of the cases the events in the myths don't happen even similar to the game, why just one that is convenient to you would play out exact the same? Actualy Occran Razor would say that it plays off diferent as well...


You have no idea how Occam's Razor works. The myth happens in the game too and there is no reason to think it doesn't. Everyone, including the makers, said that he did the 12 labours. That's word of god right there. The novel of God Of War even states he lifted the world. How hard is this to understand?


----------



## Cypher0120 (Nov 11, 2010)

I'm taking this to the Meta-Battledome.


----------



## Hoshino Rika (Nov 11, 2010)

Cypher0120 said:


> I'm taking this to the Meta-Battledome.



Be my guest.


----------



## Phunin (Nov 11, 2010)

Kratos would solo all of them. Wouldn't even be a fair fight


----------



## Ky Hakubi (Nov 11, 2010)

Since when the hell was Kratos a planet lifter? And unless Kratos was physically holding on to Herc, then it would be no problem to lift him unless Hercules has shit durability.

Just being able to throw chunks of mountain doesn't mean Atlas is more than a planet lifter. If you can LIFT a planet, throwing chunks of it is small potatoes.

If Atlas is chained by Chains of Olympus that he 'can't refuse' or whatever, then how could he give the burden to Hercules in the first place, especially considering that Hercules is NOT on Olympian and would have no jurisdiction to release his bonds. Sounds to me like Hercules never had the oppurtunity to hold the world.

As for the novel, is in fact canon? I've always known books based on other works to have anywhere from minor to major discrepancies. Just sayin'.

For Occam's Razor, the simplist solution... The myth goes forward as normal. However, which variation is this? Is this based on Atlas retaking his burden without a fuss, or due to Hercules' trickery? Is this where the Hesperides are his daughters or in love with him? I'll grant you that all the variations I've heard/read have Atlas retrieve the apples, but if he's chained in place, how can he relinquish his burden? Also, there seems to be a variation that Hercules himself steals the apples. In this case, with Atlas being chained in place, the simplest solution is that Hercules stole them himself, though this is moot if the novel is canon. I'm just listing theories.

However, that leaves the problem with Kratos' "planet level durability"

My understanding is that if you have X level durability, than you can withstand an attack that can destroy X. If this is true, than it sounds as if you're claiming that Hercules is a planet buster, which is a huge sight different than lifting something. I call BS. I can lift a 300lbs steel weight over my head. I sure as shit can't destroy it. Just because Hercules lifted the planet doesn't mean he can destroy it. That would mean Kratos still has the durability to withstand a cubic shit-ton of force, I just doubt it's planet level. I suppose it'd still put him above the damage output of the rest of the characters, barring supernatural attacks.


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## Hoshino Rika (Nov 12, 2010)

Ky Hakubi said:


> Since when the hell was Kratos a planet lifter? And unless Kratos was physically holding on to Herc, then it would be no problem to lift him unless Hercules has shit durability.
> 
> Just being able to throw chunks of mountain doesn't mean Atlas is more than a planet lifter. If you can LIFT a planet, throwing chunks of it is small potatoes.
> 
> ...



Errr, Hercules is an Olympian.


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## Ky Hakubi (Nov 12, 2010)

No, Hercules is not. He is mortal, at least until Zeus grants him immortality at the time of his death which apparently doesn't happen in the GoW universe.

Kratos even asks why he aspires to be an Olympian (because he isn't one) in the video you yourself posted.


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## Lucifeller (Nov 12, 2010)

Okay, let's see.

Dante does resist being impaled by his sword, but his death animation if you lose to Phantom makes it very clear he can't survive having his head taken off (it is Phantom eating his head, for those who wonder). Pretty much everyfreakingone in this matchup can decapitate him with little effort should they get anywhere within striking range.

Emerald Weapon's best attack is Aire Tam Storm, which does damage equal to number of Materia equipped x 1111. Nobody uses Materia in this fight, so Emmy might as well be shit. Everything else it does is harmless compared to Aire Tam Storm.

Saber has the best base speed feats, and has a strong case for just blitzing everybody else as soon as the fight starts, since Dante needs to activate Quicksilver to be faster... and Saber can just chop his head off before he can do that.

Kratos is slow, but he does have some really nice endurance and raw strength feats, and has a habit of not STAYING dead regardless.

Samus... seriously? SAMUS? You do know what typically happens to any location she fights in, right? My money is on some self destruct activating and her getting out just in time while everyone else gets caught in a planet shattering explosion. How many planets has she totaled in various ways throughout her career? Three? Four? I remember Zebes, SR388 and Phaaze, and I think there was a fourth one...


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## Hoshino Rika (Nov 12, 2010)

Ky Hakubi said:


> No, Hercules is not. He is mortal, at least until Zeus grants him immortality at the time of his death which apparently doesn't happen in the GoW universe.
> 
> Kratos even asks why he aspires to be an Olympian (because he isn't one) in the video you yourself posted.



Whatever. Point remains, Hercules mentions doing the labour.

Either show me a video of him doing the labour differently or go away since according to the novel, he lifts the planet.


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## Cypher0120 (Nov 12, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> Whatever. Point remains, Hercules mentions doing the labour.
> 
> Either show me a video of him doing the labour differently or go away since according to the novel, he lifts the planet.



Proof that the creators themselves called the novel canon and doesn't contradict what happened in the game? We don't know the circumstances of Hercules lifting the planet, that can't really be used.

Either way, like mentioned in the Meta, Kratos nowhere near has the durability you suggest to resist Excalibur, Yamato, Sparda, and various long-range weaponry by Dante and Samus.

He gets blitzed as well.


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## Hoshino Rika (Nov 12, 2010)

Cypher0120 said:


> Proof that the creators themselves called the novel canon and doesn't contradict what happened in the game? We don't know the circumstances of Hercules lifting the planet, that can't really be used.
> 
> Either way, like mentioned in the Meta, Kratos nowhere near has the durability you suggest to resist Excalibur, Yamato, Sparda, and various long-range weaponry by Dante and Samus.
> 
> He gets blitzed as well.





The Official Novel Of The Game. Nice try bro.

Show me Excalibur, Yamato, Sparda, Dante or Samus doing damage akin to getting punched by someone who can lift a planet. Just yelling out names and not showing feats is very bad debate.

Kratos has dodged lightning bolts by the god of thunder himself. Remind me again when these other people have some reflex akin to half the speed of light?


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## Cypher0120 (Nov 12, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> The Official Novel Of The Game. Nice try bro.
> 
> Show me Excalibur, Yamato, Sparda, Dante or Samus doing damage akin to getting punched by someone who can lift a planet. Just yelling out names and not showing feats is very bad debate.
> 
> Kratos has dodged lightning bolts by the god of thunder himself. Remind me again when these other people have some reflex akin to half the speed of light?



Doesn't have to. If it can bypass Kratos's physical defense, it'll kill him. Stabbing his eye or shooting it will count.


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## Ky Hakubi (Nov 12, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> Whatever. Point remains, Hercules mentions doing the labour.
> 
> Either show me a video of him doing the labour differently or go away since according to the novel, he lifts the planet.



Nice way to avoid the arguement. That wasn't even the point I was trying to make. If you read my post previous to this one, you'd realize I pretty much dropped the Labour arguement.

However, you also say that Kratos is a planet lifter, whether you misspoke or not, I don't know. I don't recall a strength feat anywhere near approaching this.

My main arguement though was contesting Kratos' alleged "planet level durability". The only way this can be true is if Hercules is a planet buster, which is nowhere close to being. He can lift the planet. Fine, whatever. I'll buy that he's a mountain buster, maybe an island buster at best, but he ain't planet level. If he was, I doubt he would have needed help killing the hydra, unless you expect me to believe that the hydra is planet level also.


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## kageyame (Nov 12, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> Encyclopedia of greek mythes and stories and Greek And Roman Myths. Two books used by history teachers in their training. Both of them mention this variation. Excuse me if I take their word over fucking wikipedia .



So in the end you don't have the proof, just a generic 2 history book.

If you can't post the scans, you can just explain the myth, and not just say LOL he hold the World in one Variation, there must be a history behind the event that led Atlas to Hold the World Instead of the Skies.

But in the end, this and all the rest might as well be a moot point, if the novel states that Hercules did hold up the world, and the novel is proven Canon (there's a diference between oficial work and canon material, I hope you know that), then he indeed a continent lifter (You didn't forgot that Greek ancient world is composed only by a part of Europe, Africa and Asia, right?  oh, and ther world should be flat, )

(need sleep now, almost 18 hours @ work thanks to a DB refresh is killing me, probally look this tread on sunday...)


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## Axl Low (Nov 13, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> Who cares? Nobody here can harm Kratos nor outspeed him.



Refer to Samus vs Kratos
Where Samus wins nicely


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## Hand of Judgement (Nov 13, 2010)

GoW 2 and 3 I belive outlines how hercules is clearly not a planet lifter, neitheri s Kratos.

His best durability feat is taking on a slap by Cronos and then lifting the hand up (with effort mind you). 

Kratos is strong/durable but not planet level. Also anyone talking about "holding the world on their shoulders" based on the Atlas/Hercules myth should take into account how Greeks viewed the world, and how it is in their actual myth. Not how it is in reality.


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## Axl Low (Nov 14, 2010)

Honestly it goes something like this:

Saber/Dante/Samus
Dante/Samus
Kratos
E Weapon

lol feats for E weapon
lol Kratos
Dante vs Samus is ???
But if it was a straight out brawl with Saber and Dante and Samus
I dunno
I'd think Saber would be on top unless Dante and Samus team up on her even then...
Meh.


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