# Edo Tobirama vs 5 Kages



## joshhookway (Mar 30, 2014)

Location: Madara vs Kages
Knowledge: manga
Restrictions: none


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## richard lewis (Mar 30, 2014)

does tobirama get any edo's?


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## Cognitios (Mar 30, 2014)

When I saw this thread I knew you were the one to make it XD
Kage win, low-mid difficulty, max.
Onoki and A are enough to catch him, Gaara acts as defense, to destroy Tobirama marks, and to catch Tobirama Mei as long range support, and Tsunade acts as a medic.
Tobirama doesn't have anything besides exploding tags to take them out. I don't see him getting close to anyone but Mei and Tsunade, assuming Onoki is piggy backing A. Tsunade can heal through it and Mei isn't exactly needed.


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## Turrin (Mar 30, 2014)

Onoki, Gaara, and Tsunade are both at least within the same league as Tobirama. I think he's better, don't get me wrong, but he wouldn't be low-diffing any of them. So the 5 Kages combined murder Nindaime


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## Bonly (Mar 30, 2014)

As with most Edo vs Gokage threads this comes down to one thing mainly. Can the Edo(Tobi) take out Gaara and Onoki first or would the Gokage as a team manage to stop the Edo(Tobi) before those two are taken out. If one thinks Tobi can then Tobi would win eventually but if one thinks Tobi couldn't then he'd lose. I think Tobi may put up a fight but I don't think he'd be able to take out both Onoki+Gaara fast enough.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 30, 2014)

Everyone here save Mei could solo Tobirama with the correct stipulations (mainly knowledge).

He isn't beating Onoki, period. 

Gaara can fly out of his attacking range.

Ei can tank and dodge everyone of his attacks, or outlast him.

Tsunade summons Katsuya, and outlasts him.

Mei cannot beat Tobirama.


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## Veracity (Mar 30, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Everyone here save Mei could solo Tobirama with the correct stipulations (mainly knowledge).
> 
> He isn't beating Onoki, period.
> 
> ...



No. Not even close. Tobirama beats them all. He might even be able to take 3 out at a time.


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## Trojan (Mar 30, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Everyone here save Mei could solo Tobirama with the correct stipulations (mainly knowledge).
> 
> He isn't beating Onoki, period.
> 
> ...



I agree that A, and Onoki defeat him, but I don't see how can gaara defeat him. @.@
Tsunade probably lose more times than not as well.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 30, 2014)

Edo tobirama would get steamrolled by Onoki+A+Gaara(for sealing)...actually A and gaara could do it mid diff.
He does not even have a way to avoid jinton AoE sweeps. Really onoki, tsunade and Mei are not needed.

Hurrible match.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 30, 2014)

> No. Not even close. Tobirama beats them all. He might even be able to take 3 out at a time.


Tobirama is shit-stomped into the dirt with low difficulty. 

Overall, he might be the weakest Hokage if we take Hiruzen's hype and edo feats into consideration. 
5% Katsuya automatically puts Tsunade above Tobirama in capabilities. 
Hashirama and Minato are clearly stronger than him. 



> I agree that A, and Onoki defeat him, but I don't see how can gaara defeat him. @.@
> Tsunade probably lose more times than not as well.


How does Tobirama defeat Gaara is the better question. 

Tsunade beats Tobirama the moment Katsuya is summoned.


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## Trojan (Mar 30, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Tobirama is shit-stomped into the dirt with low difficulty.
> 
> Overall, he might be the weakest Hokage if we take Hiruzen's hype and edo feats into consideration.
> 5% Katsuya automatically puts Tsunade above Tobirama in capabilities.
> ...



1- Tobirama has always been the weakest out of the 4 Hokages, indeed. 
2- Tobirama has some water jutsus, and he's faster than Gaara's sand as well. 
He can make his sand useless with his water jutsus. @.@

3- mmm, I think the explosion tags will work against Katsuyu


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 30, 2014)

> 1- Tobirama has always been the weakest out of the 4 Hokages, indeed.
> 2- Tobirama has some water jutsus, and he's faster than Gaara's sand as well.
> He can make his sand useless with his water jutsus. @.@
> 
> 3- mmm, I think the explosion tags will work against Katsuyu


1. Gaara can manipulate millions of gallons of sand instantly from over a kilometer away
2. Tobirama's greatest Suiton technique was a water beam that destroyed a couple trees
3. Gaara mixed sand into Mei's water dragon, and grappled Madara within a Susano


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## Trojan (Mar 30, 2014)

Well, if you said it that way. 
but still, that does not really mean that Gaara will win every single time.
He did not do that against the Mizukage, or Mu for example because it will take tons of chakra to control that.
Not to mention Tobirama could just teleport away, if he has some seals away.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 30, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Well, if you said it that way.
> but still, that does not really mean that Gaara will win every single time.
> He did not do that against the Mizukage, or Mu for example because it will take tons of chakra to control that.
> Not to mention Tobirama could just teleport away, if he has some seals away.


No one suggested he would win every time, if you look back you'll see that I said he could solo Tobirama with the _right stipulations_.

Normally, Current Gaara does defeat Tobirama most of the time. His presence among the elite facing Judara now is clearly meant to suggest such.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Mar 30, 2014)

Unless one believes Tobirama has some exceedingly powerful Edos, I don't see him winning. Honestly, worse case scenario for the Gokage is having to wage a war of attrition in which they would eventually win, and I heavily doubt it would even come to that. He simply doesn't have the firepower to take on that many strong opponents at once.


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## RedChidori (Mar 30, 2014)

BAMFlash's em all with Hiraishingiri (Flying Thunder God Slash) .


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## Weapon (Mar 30, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Onoki, Gaara, and Tsunade are both at least within the same league as Tobirama. I think he's better, don't get me wrong, but he wouldn't be low-diffing any of them. So the 5 Kages combined murder Nindaime




This is pretty much spot on to what I was going to say, except for Gaara post Bijuu Extraction but they will still get the job done regardless.

All it comes down to, is Edo Tobirama =/= Edo Madara

 Edo Madara w/ Modifications trumps Edo Tobirama and had an arsenal that could wipe the floor with Gokage, Tobirama doesn't.


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## Veracity (Mar 30, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Tobirama is shit-stomped into the dirt with low difficulty.
> 
> Overall, he might be the weakest Hokage if we take Hiruzen's hype and edo feats into consideration.
> 5% Katsuya automatically puts Tsunade above Tobirama in capabilities.
> ...



Tobirama is superior to base Minato. I DARE you to argue otherwise. Tobirama possess a shunshin faster then KCM Minato's hand speed, FTG basically on par with Minato, and the fastest hand speed in the manga bar Juubito and juubidara. He also posses more stamina and a bit more intelligence then Minato. 

That also puts above Tsuande and Featless Hiruzen .

I don't see how anybody in the Gokage bar lightened Ay who can hit a ninja that could react and tag Juubito himself. A ninja who has hand speed that shits on base Minato's, a ninja who posses a shunshin superior to base Minato's, a ninja who fought in conjunction with a speedster like KCM Minato( far faster then Ay) and a ninja who ultimately possesses Kage Bunshin + FTG.


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## Trojan (Mar 30, 2014)

Tobirama reacted to mindless-v1 obito, by dying basically.  
he couldn't even handle kin & gin, I suppose that put him below Darui's level? 

Also, according to that logic, his speed is slower than Hiruzen (Hiruzen saved Naruto, before Tobirama could reach him) Hiruzen is slower than Tsunade according to the databook. Also, we saw Gaara's sand stopped A's attack on Sasuke. So, basically all the Gokage can blitze Tobirama according to that logic.


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## Veracity (Mar 30, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Tobirama reacted to mindless-v1 obito, by dying basically.
> he couldn't even handle kin & gin, I suppose that put him below Darui's level?
> 
> Also, according to that logic, his speed is slower than Hiruzen (Hiruzen saved Naruto, before Tobirama could reach him) Hiruzen is slower than Tsunade according to the databook. Also, we saw Gaara's sand stopped A's attack on Sasuke. So, basically all the Gokage can blitze Tobirama according to that logic.



I cannot count how many times I've proved everything you just said wrong specially to YOU. I'm not doing it again. Tobirama is superior.


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## Weapon (Mar 30, 2014)

Also to add on to what I said, even if Tobirama does know the tweaks and perks to Edo Tensei I don't think it will benefit him that much.


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## Trojan (Mar 31, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I cannot count how many times I've proved everything you just said wrong specially to YOU. I'm not doing it again. Tobirama is superior.



Well, your opinion is not really a proof of anything, you discredit a straight forward statement, for you own bias toward Tobirama so to speak. With that said, I did not even mean to start a debate between Minato and Tobirama. 

What I was saying is Hiruzen is faster than Tobirama (otherwise he would have reached Naruto before Hiruzen), and according to the DB3 Tsunade is faster than Hiruzen, she also reacted to Madara's fire jutsu before A, so she also faster than the later (), the same with Gaara.

So, basically team Gokage are also speeddemonds 
and they are all faster than Tobirama (according to Tobirama's fans great logic)

anyway, regardless of that, Tobirama gets fodderized low difficult, and that's being generous. U_U


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## joshhookway (Mar 31, 2014)

LOL at you people thinking Onouki and Raikage could beat Tobirama. Tobirama is leagues above their speed.

Let's not forget that Tobirama can make 5 clones and turn it into a one vs one with all the kages.


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## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

I greatly doubt that Ei vs Tobirama would play out any differently than Ei vs Minato, if it were to take place in the manga; and therefore I really doubt Ei is beating Tobirama. I mean Tobirama has Ei completely outclassed in Ei's most important stat; speed. That should go a really long way in demonstrating who is better in this match. Especially considering Minato outclassing Ei in speed was enough for Ei to faun all over Minato's ability as a Shinobi and pretty much the same held true when KCM-Naruto outclassed Ei in speed. Simply put Ei seems to acknowledge that if someone is faster than him, they are most like a superior shinobi to him


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## Rocky (Mar 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I greatly doubt that Ei vs Tobirama would play out any differently than Ei vs Minato, if it were to take place in the manga; and therefore I really doubt Ei is beating Tobirama. I mean Tobirama has Ei completely outclassed in Ei's most important stat; speed. That should go a really long way in demonstrating who is better in this match.




Not necessarily. Imo, Kishimoto considers Minato faster than Tobirama, and Ei was in inches of beating Minato during their first encounter. Tobirama most likely wouldn't avoid unless he had prior knowledge on the Raikage.


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## Trojan (Mar 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I greatly doubt that Ei vs Tobirama would play out any differently than Ei vs Minato, if it were to take place in the manga; and therefore I really doubt Ei is beating Tobirama. I mean Tobirama has Ei completely outclassed in Ei's most important stat; speed. That should go a really long way in demonstrating who is better.



Just because Minato was faster than A, that does not mean Tobirama will do the same because Minato is better than him as well. Also, A almost hit Minato, so how would Tobirama with inferior reaction speed react to A? 

Not to mention he does not really need to be faster than Tobirama to defeat him. Kin & gin were not nearly as fast as A, yet they floored Tobirama!


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## ARGUS (Mar 31, 2014)

Gokage win this low/mid diff,,, 

-They have large scale jintons along with Meis suitons, Gaaras sand based attacks and Tsunade and A at CQC to have a large enough AOE to overcome Tobiramas limits of FTG,,,
Tobirama may be able to take out 1 or 2 if they work separately but together as a team,, Gokage are too formidable for him



DaVizWiz said:


> Everyone here save Mei could solo Tobirama with the correct stipulations (mainly knowledge).
> 
> He isn't beating Onoki, period.
> 
> ...


No, as of right now it should be prominent that Tobirama individually is superior to all of the current gokage,,, 

@Bold - If u think that A can dodge FTG then u really need to read the manga,,, The mere fact that Tobirama managed to mark Juubito who is much faster than A alone should be eminent enough,that Tobirama would end up marking A,,, regardless of how the fight proceeds,,once A is marked,, Tobirama can use FTG slash on hiis neck and unlike his father,, A is not tanking that 

Tsunade gets defeated quite comfortably by Tobirama,, as FTG constant attacks would end up immobilising her,,, so no way in hell is she outlasting if shes getting constantly attacked



DaVizWiz said:


> Overall, he might be the *weakest Hokage* if we take Hiruzen's hype and edo feats into consideration.


Tobirama is roughly the equivalent to Base Minato who stomps Tsunade and Hiruzen,,, if we go by feats including edo feats,,, 
He has FTG,, that alone puts him in the top tier,,,
u may interpret this in a different way but its clear that even kishi has portrayed Tobirama to be in the same level as atleast MS Madara if not EMS Madara....
Gaara vs. Kimimaro
Gaara vs. Kimimaro
and no this scan is not related to jus CQC


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## Rocky (Mar 31, 2014)

Kifflom!! said:


> @Bold - If u think that A can dodge FTG then u really need to read the manga,,, The mere fact that Tobirama managed to mark Juubito who is much faster than A alone should be eminent enough,that Tobirama would end up marking A.




Tobirama marked Jubito while Jubito tore him in half.



> regardless of how the fight proceeds,,once A is marked,, Tobirama can use FTG slash on hiis neck and unlike his father,, A is not tanking that




Sasuke's Raiton Katana bounced off Ei and Chidori gave him a minor cut.

Tobirama's Kunai literally don't even make it past the Raiton shroud.


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## ARGUS (Mar 31, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Tobirama marked Jubito while Jubito tore him in half.


He is edo here isnt he,,, so why cant he mark A
besides Juubito tearing him in half still shows that tobirama managing to mark him,, while getting stomped is a biig deal,,, since juubito is on a whole other level to everyone bar madara and juubi jins





> Sasuke's Raiton Katana bounced off Ei and Chidori gave him a minor cut.
> 
> Tobirama's Kunai literally don't even make it past the Raiton shroud.


Kunai maybe,, but a sword to the neck can atleast injure him


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## Rocky (Mar 31, 2014)

Kifflom!! said:


> He is edo here isnt he,,, so why cant he mark A




He can, but one of the other Kage would just dismember him further while he's in half, taking away his opportunity to use the explosive tag chain or Hiraishin. 



> Kunai maybe,, but a sword to the neck can atleast injure him




We saw him take a sword to the neck with no damage.


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## Veracity (Mar 31, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Well, your opinion is not really a proof of anything, you discredit a straight forward statement, for you own bias toward Tobirama so to speak. With that said, I did not even mean to start a debate between Minato and Tobirama.
> 
> What I was saying is Hiruzen is faster than Tobirama (otherwise he would have reached Naruto before Hiruzen), and according to the DB3 Tsunade is faster than Hiruzen, she also reacted to Madara's fire jutsu before A, so she also faster than the later (), the same with Gaara.
> 
> ...



My opinion seems to be good enough that nobody on the entire forums can prove me wrong lol. 

I don't discredit anything lol. You even admired Tobirama was referring to FTG. This means that Minato simply had"better" FTG in which I agree completely at that specific time.

No lol I've Explained this to you countless times. Tobirama could not get close to Naruto because of the ever growing god tree forming infront of him in which he was was trying to destroy. Hirzuen on the other hand was not covered by trees, and even if he was it's more of a power thing between Suiton and Enma. Lol if you read the chapter agains you'd notice Tobiramas didn't even move because Naruto was blocked. 

This isn't the same old and chakra low Hiruzen lol. Also DB doesn't add in shunshin, in which Hirzuen is the Ninjustu master of the manga.

A had RnY inactivated btw.

I agree he loses but not low difficulty.


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## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Just because Minato was faster than A, that does not mean Tobirama will do the same because Minato is better than him as well. Also, A almost hit Minato, so how would Tobirama with inferior reaction speed react to A?


Tobirama also held the title as WFM, and his speed operates off of space-time. To me that clearly puts him ahead of Ei, whether Minato is faster than him or not. Only difference might be is that Ei's fist grazes Tobirama, instead of not hitting him at all. However, Ei's fist getting so close to Minato was probably simply drawn that way for dramatic effect, and shouldn't be taken that seriously, as Kishi plays with the way he demonstrates the differences in speed all the time.

Beyond that  where has Minato has been indicated to have better reactions than Tobirama?



> Not to mention he does not really need to be faster than Tobirama to defeat him. Kin & gin were not nearly as fast as A, yet they floored Tobirama!


Ei is not Gin & Kin. Nothing indicates Ei is on their level. Besides the fact that they brought Tobirama to the brink of death and Ei has no accomplishments even remotely as good as that, the way Ei was freaking the fuck out at the mention of their name, goes a long way to suggesting his inferiority:

Tsunade, "Calm down Raikage you're supreme commander remember"
Ei, "You don't know how fearsome the gold & silver brothers truly are"
Ei, "They are the worst criminals in Kumogakure history"

Ei, "No ordinary human can wield those treasured tools. They drain such a massive volume of chakra that most who try die. But they are now more like monsters infused with the chakra of the nine-tailed beast"

Those are just some general freak-outs on Ei's part. But what's even more telling than that is this:

Ei, "Hurry if Kinkaku has transformed we won't be able to stop him"

Ei clearly doesn't know how to stop KN6-Kinkaku, outside of the Amber-Sealing Pot, which indicates that the brothers with KN6 are individually superior to Ei, let alone their combined might.

----------------

As for how the brothers defeated Tobirama despite being slower. They must have had abilities/Jutsu that were able to handle Tobirama's superior speed, it's that simple. However comparing Ei to them is faulty. Ei is not only inferior to them in strength, but unlike them, the main attribute Kishi has focused on as Ei's best ability is speed and has also focused on Ei himself believing shinobi that demonstrate a higher speed than him are his superiors; so a character being faster than Ei, means more in determining whose superior in Ei's case than it will ever mean in the case of shinobi like Gin&Kin. 

Not saying this is a perfect science, but when we combine this, with the fact that Tobirama's portrayal has been overwhelming more favorable than Ei's, It seems extremely doubtful that we'd see Ei defeat Tobirama 1v1.


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## Trojan (Mar 31, 2014)

Turrin 

I'm using iPad now, so I won't go in details. 

How does what A said indicate his inferiority when he actually wanted to go there 
to defeat them?? Even Darui was actually better than them until kinkaku used his kurama mode! 
I don't see how A can be inferior to them honestly!


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## joshhookway (Mar 31, 2014)

Weapon said:


> Also to add on to what I said, even if Tobirama does know the tweaks and perks to Edo Tensei I don't think it will benefit him that much.



Unlimited chakra definitely helps him since he can make a lot of clones similar to what Madara did.

Clones will definitely disrupt the kages teammate work and I think Tobirama can destroy the kages 1 v1


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## BroKage (Mar 31, 2014)

Tobirama kinda has a problem in the fact that none of his attacks have a reliable way to hit flying Onoki or flying Gaara. Ay also tanks all of his attacks.

Tobirama can kill Tsunade with a kunai/sword to the brain/neck, and use his sensor skills to hunt down Mei even if she puts up mist (plus they'd both die to exploding tag spam), but I don't see a way for him to beat the above 3 Kages.


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## Dominus (Mar 31, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Everyone here save Mei could solo Tobirama with the correct stipulations (mainly knowledge).
> 
> He isn't beating Onoki, period.
> 
> ...



Even with Katsuyu, I don't see her beating Tobirama.



DaVizWiz said:


> Normally, Current Gaara does defeat Tobirama most of the time. His presence among the elite facing Judara now is clearly meant to suggest such.



I guess Gaara would beat Hashirama too then?


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## Alita (Mar 31, 2014)

I think tobirama is being underestimated here. He is definitely faster than all of the 5 kages and outrunning large scale AOE attacks shoulden't be a problem for him either since he has shown to be able to maintain his speed over large distances. And I'm very confident that continuous explosion attack of his could fuck over any kage save for maybe gaara with sand defenses or onoki. 

He definitely has much better chances at victory here then people give him credit for.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 31, 2014)

The only place Tobirama is bamflashing to is about 30ft under, to his fucking grave. :sanji

The Gokage stomp.​​


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## joshhookway (Mar 31, 2014)

BroKage said:


> Tobirama kinda has a problem in the fact that none of his attacks have a reliable way to hit flying Onoki or flying Gaara. Ay also tanks all of his attacks.
> 
> Tobirama can kill Tsunade with a kunai/sword to the brain/neck, and use his sensor skills to hunt down Mei even if she puts up mist (plus they'd both die to exploding tag spam), but I don't see a way for him to beat the above 3 Kages.





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