# Frieza vs The Super Skrull



## Heavenly King (Mar 15, 2010)

this battle take place on Asgard.. no bloodlust no planet busting. this is a fight to the death


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## Shagari (Mar 15, 2010)

This thread seems very familar lol. I say it could go either way if its not a rapestomp thread (which seems to be the case) unless somebody can say otherwise.


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## Heavenly King (Mar 15, 2010)

Shagari said:


> This thread seems very familar lol. I say it could go either way if its not a rapestomp thread (which seems to be the case) unless somebody can say otherwise.



well who do you think would win


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## Shagari (Mar 15, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> well who do you think would win



Hard to say, but I am going with Frieza because of his higher destructive output and possibly battle speed although Skrull has more variety of abilities.


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## Hellspawn28 (Mar 15, 2010)

They both take planet busting before, and Super Skrull's supernova is very powerful. I'm not so sure if Freeza can surrive comsic flames or not, but it can go either way.


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## Vanthebaron (Mar 15, 2010)

Super Skrull wins (if its the one with the powers of the FF)


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## Endless Mike (Mar 15, 2010)

Brain bubble FTW


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## Raigen (Mar 15, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Brain bubble FTW



Agreed.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 15, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Agreed.



In that case, I change my mind.


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## Darth Nihilus (Mar 15, 2010)

Has this ever happened before?


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## enzymeii (Mar 15, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Agreed.





Endless Mike said:


> In that case, I change my mind.



Well played, Raigen, well played 

edit:
In all seriousness, would brain-bubble even work?  It has to have a limit, especially since we're putting it against a guy with nearly planet-level durability.  Just wondering if there's any precedent.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Mar 15, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> In that case, I change my mind.


like i said last time you two agreed, even a  stopped watch is correct twice per day. unless its digital.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 15, 2010)

Yeah it would work, considering it pretty much ignores conventional durability. Kl'rt also has enough power to absorb Praxagora's self-destruct which destroyed a planet-size weapon.


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## Knight (Mar 15, 2010)

Raigen and Mike...


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## Hellspawn28 (Mar 15, 2010)

Since Planet busting attacks are not allowed then Frieza would just fire moon busting attacks instend, and Super Skrull should be fine from it afterwards.


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## Diskyr (Mar 16, 2010)

When has Frieza demonstrated the speed and strength feats to harm Superskrull? hell, Super skrull takes this since he can go supernova and incinerate the planet, but not destroy it though. I don't see Frieza survivng that. i would like the creator of DBZ to put some scientific input on his characters, like how fast goku is, or how durable Vegeta


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## Raigen (Mar 16, 2010)

Really all Klr't has to do is survive Freeza's incessant giggling and give him an aneurysm via brain-bubble. Freeza has no defense against such a thing and he still needs his brain to live (even if he did survive without a piece of it when ruined by Goku and exploded on Namek). Really even though Klr't isn't as fast as Freeza all he has to do is survive a few attacks and then brain-bubble and it's over, and he's more than capable of that.


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## Diskyr (Mar 16, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Really all Klr't has to do is survive Freeza's incessant giggling and give him an aneurysm via brain-bubble. Freeza has no defense against such a thing and he still needs his brain to live (even if he did survive without a piece of it when ruined by Goku and exploded on Namek). Really even though Klr't isn't as fast as Freeza all he has to do is survive a few attacks and then brain-bubble and it's over, and he's more than capable of that.



Exactly of course


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## Hellspawn28 (Mar 16, 2010)

Diskyr said:


> Super skrull takes this since he can go supernova and incinerate the planet, but not destroy it though. I don't see Frieza survivng that.



Freeza did surrived after having been cut in half and the remainder of his body blown in half and survived the planet exploding during the end of the Namke Saga. He might surrived his Supernova, but Freeza has no way on hurting him neither.


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## Estrecca (Mar 16, 2010)

Personally, I'd bet on Freeza blitzing. 

Super-Skrull might have the combined powers of the F4, plus shapeshifting, but I don't remember him having speed feats worth shit.


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## Heavenly King (Mar 16, 2010)

Hellspawn28 said:


> Freeza did surrived after having been cut in half and the remainder of his body blown in half and survived the planet exploding during the end of the Namke Saga. He might surrived his Supernova, but Freeza has no way on hurting him neither.



dbz characters have the weakest durability i have ever seen in mangas hands down . they can dish it out but can't take it. i don't see freiza surviving a super nova at all. it was his own planet buster that he tank by the way. alot of top tier dbz characters don't have no type of defense against mind rapes, matter manipulation and other attacks that most dc and marvel characters deal with on a daily base in battles


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## chulance (Mar 16, 2010)

Super Skrull....

He has Thing's strength, so...yeah. Actually how fast is SS? Does Frieza have the speed advantage in this?

DBZ was a martial arts manga, not some cosmic place that dealt with the stuff you mentioned, but come to think of it there durability is pretty bad.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 16, 2010)

No, their durability is decent, it just doesn't match up to their offensive power.

Anyway SSkrull has been seen fighting in space at high speed against Herald levelers.


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## chulance (Mar 16, 2010)

I see, this means SS can take it?

He has better speed, durability, cosmic flames, and all that jazz. DBZ can dish out, more then they can take. I mean there durability surpasses HST's, but against cosmic tiers it's nothing.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 16, 2010)

> He has better speed, durability, cosmic flames, and all that jazz. DBZ can dish out, more then they can take. I mean there durability surpasses HST's, but against cosmic tiers it's nothing.





stupid reasons to say x wins a fight #12233 - HE'S A COSMIC DURR




> DBZ was a martial arts manga, not some cosmic place that dealt with the stuff you mentioned, but come to think of it there durability is pretty bad.



what the hell are you on about, they had planet busting attacks and people taking said planet busters, what exactly is so bad about their durability, and also what the fuck kind of "martial arts manga" involves planets being blown up


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## Endless Mike (Mar 16, 2010)

Actually no one ever survived a confirmed planet buster head - on.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 16, 2010)

what, never?

then what're all the planet-level durability claims?


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## heavy_rasengan (Mar 16, 2010)

So then Super Skrull does have speed feats on par with Frieza? Thats what I see winning this battle but also wouldn't Frieza's destructo disks deal some damage? They also follow you if i remember correctly. Would Skrulls durability prevent him from being cut into pieces?


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## Estrecca (Mar 16, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Anyway SSkrull has been seen fighting in space at high speed against Herald levelers.



Context is everything. Which Herald levelers? Some heralds like the Surfer and Stardust are speedy as hell, whereas guys like Terrax are slowpokes. 



Endless Mike said:


> Actually no one ever survived a confirmed planet buster head - on.



Hmm... Frieza survived being in Namek when the planet exploded, after being cut in half by his own attack. This is _distinctly_ undeniable.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 16, 2010)

It was Surfer. Surfer won but Kl'rt was able to follow him and get some hits in on him.

And as I have said before, surviving on the surface of an exploding planet is different from being hit with an entire planet destroying attack head-on, because on the surface you only absorb a small part of the blast.


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## Estrecca (Mar 16, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> It was Surfer. Surfer won but Kl'rt was able to follow him and get some hits in on him.



Do you remember where this happens? Not doubting your word, I mostly want to know.



> And as I have said before, surviving on the surface of an exploding planet is different from being hit with an entire planet destroying attack head-on, because on the surface you only absorb a small part of the blast.



Yes, inverse square law. I can live with this qualifier.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 16, 2010)

In was in a Silver Surfer Annual, I forget the issue number. Here's a scan:

illusions

To be fair here's Surfer pwning him:

illusions


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## Hotcherie (Mar 16, 2010)

Well, Cell took a kamehameha wave and a final flash, but he didn't exactly come out unscathed.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 16, 2010)

Exactly, they destroyed the parts of him they hit but they didn't hit his entire body so he regenerated.


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## Tranquil Fury (Mar 16, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Actually no one ever survived a confirmed planet buster head - on.



They can't survive in space so they'd die(Barring Cell and Buu) but apart from that Cell did take Goku's Kamehameha and regen. After that you can only powerscale but planet durability as far as blowing up a planet the size of Earth should count. 

EDIT Well yeah but that Goku was much stronger than Frieza and characters do get stronger than Perfect Cell. I doubt that Kamehameha from Goku would do anything to someone like Vegetto.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 16, 2010)

Like I said, that attack only hit the top part of his body, and it destroyed it.


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## Hotcherie (Mar 16, 2010)

Didn't cell take a big bang attack, or was that anime only.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 16, 2010)

Hotcherie said:


> Didn't cell take a big bang attack, or was that anime only.



In the anime fillers one of the Cell Jrs. deflected one


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## RandomLurker (Mar 16, 2010)

Hotcherie said:


> Didn't cell take a big bang attack, or was that anime only.



The blast Vegeta blasted Cell with during the final Kamehameha clash was possibly a Big Bang attack. Though it was super perfect Cell tanking it, so...


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## Endless Mike (Mar 16, 2010)

Like I've said before, the way durability against ki works in DBZ is weird. Apparently if you're more powerful than the other guy you can hurt him more with an attack that does less damage, because it cancels/compromises their defensive ki aura or something.


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## Raigen (Mar 16, 2010)

You guys still don't understand DBZ. They control the effect of their attacks. Vegeta fired a planet-buster at Freeza and Freeza punted it effortlessly into space at 1% of his power. I've shown this a number of times. DBZ durability is actually very, very high. However they lack mostly in mental defenses and have nothing to stop energy absorption or matter transmutation (except Vegito for some reason).


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## chulance (Mar 16, 2010)

Yup no one's tanked a planet buster in Buu.

Heck the only people who've destroyed a planet are Freiza, Cell, and Buu. And Scouter Vegeta in a filler. Freiza was torn up by a planet buster, Buu regenerated, and Cell regened. So without regen, or a form of self sustence no one can tank planet busters.

I say SS takes this.


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## Raigen (Mar 16, 2010)

Freeza took Namek exploding after having the shit kicked out of him by Goku, with one arm, no lower body, and near death. The only reason why anyone besides some of the villains wouldn't survive the planet exploding is because they can't breathe in space. They can all survive planet-busting attacks and above, that's not even in question despite how much people like to argue the point. It's simply that 99% of the cast can't survive outside of the atmosphere.

Vegeta was planet-busting in Saiyan Saga. And no people don't count filler Arlia. Piccolo was Moonbusting+, Nappa was a continent-buster. Vegeta at 18k PL was Planet-nuking. To believe otherwise is ridiculous. Also, Freeza was nuking planets in his Base Form with a max pl of around 500k. Meaning, if you wanted to go by numbers, Freeza in his base level could put out near 28x the level of force Saiyan Saga Vegeta was capable of.

Vegeta shooting a planet-buster at Freeza occurred both in the Manga and Anime. Piccolo stated it as such and all the anime did was give it better visualization.


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## Hellspawn28 (Mar 16, 2010)

Freeza does have better speed since I don't recall Super Skrull having that great of combat speed. Coun't Freeza also BFR him too?


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## Shagari (Mar 16, 2010)

Hellspawn28 said:


> Freeza does have better speed since I don't recall Super Skrull having that great of combat speed. Coun't Freeza also BFR him too?



True. He can go FTL but that's only in traveling not combat speed. I starting to think Frieza is winning this one unless somebody can present to me more evidence to the contrary.


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## Raigen (Mar 16, 2010)

*shakes head* Their combat speed is FTL. DBZ'ers are notoriously faster in battle than they are when traveling. Which is why no one ever believes they're that fast.


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## Havoc (Mar 16, 2010)

Hellspawn28 said:


> Freeza does have better speed since I don't recall Super Skrull having that great of combat speed. Coun't Freeza also BFR him too?


Just wondering, how many appearances of SS have you actually read?


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## God (Mar 16, 2010)

Brain Bubble/Suffocating Bubble FTW.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 16, 2010)

Raigen said:


> You guys still don't understand DBZ. They control the effect of their attacks. Vegeta fired a planet-buster at Freeza and Freeza punted it effortlessly into space at 1% of his power. I've shown this a number of times. DBZ durability is actually very, very high. However they lack mostly in mental defenses and have nothing to stop energy absorption or matter transmutation (except Vegito for some reason).



Raigen, claiming you understand something better than anyone else here (except maybe Wesley) is laughable.

Apparently if you have a higher PL you can deflect/resist ki attacks better, and also damage your opponent with attacks that have less actual destructive power behind them.

My theory makes much more sense as it doesn't involve completely ignoring conservation of energy. Even your example supports my idea: Vegeta's attack didn't actually detonate when it hit Frieza, he deflected it first. If you toss a grenade at me and I throw it away before it explodes, that doesn't mean I tanked the explosion.



Raigen said:


> Freeza took Namek exploding after having the shit kicked out of him by Goku, with one arm, no lower body, and near death. The only reason why anyone besides some of the villains wouldn't survive the planet exploding is because they can't breathe in space. They can all survive planet-busting attacks and above, that's not even in question despite how much people like to argue the point. It's simply that 99% of the cast can't survive outside of the atmosphere.



Okay, here you make a logical leap from "survive on the surface of an exploding planet" to "survive a planet - busting attack head - on" way after I already explained the difference in a previous post.



> Vegeta was planet-busting in Saiyan Saga.



No he wasn't.



> And no people don't count filler Arlia. Piccolo was Moonbusting+, Nappa was a continent-buster.



According to the news report, his attack only destroyed/damaged several cities and they blamed it on an earthquake. Not exactly a continent scale attack.



> Vegeta at 18k PL was Planet-nuking. To believe otherwise is ridiculous.



Why, because he claimed it when he was having a nervous breakdown and freaking out? He also claimed he was the strongest in the universe at that point, and he knew for a fact that wasn't true. Hyperbole claims from unreliable characters are not proof.



> Also, Freeza was nuking planets in his Base Form with a max pl of around 500k.



We never actually saw him destroy planet Vegeta in the manga. The only time we saw him planet bust was on Namek and via a chain reaction.



> Meaning, if you wanted to go by numbers, Freeza in his base level could put out near 28x the level of force Saiyan Saga Vegeta was capable of.



Except power levels don't scale linearly with destructive capacity, else the farmer would have more power than a nuclear arsenal. 



> Vegeta shooting a planet-buster at Freeza occurred both in the Manga and Anime. Piccolo stated it as such and all the anime did was give it better visualization.



Except Piccolo had never seen a planet buster at that point, so how would he know it was one? He had no reference point to go by.



Raigen said:


> *shakes head* Their combat speed is FTL. DBZ'ers are notoriously faster in battle than they are when traveling. Which is why no one ever believes they're that fast.



Because there is no evidence for this whatsoever, and only trolls try to claim it.

Using simple logic, if they could not travel that fast then they would never be able to dodge physical attacks by moving out of the way, which they do.


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## RandomLurker (Mar 16, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> We never actually saw him destroy planet Vegeta in the manga. The only time we saw him planet bust was on Namek and via a chain reaction.



This one <- Freeza busts planet Vegeta in base form

And Bardock is canon


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## Azrael Finalstar (Mar 16, 2010)

Whats the best Skrull has tanked? I personally beleive that DBZers have Planet Level Durability, though its not as impressive as the attacks they launch. IE, a deathball from Freeza wouldn't tickle buu.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 16, 2010)

RandomLurker said:


> This one <- Freeza busts planet Vegeta in base form
> 
> And Bardock is canon



Please show me where we see the planet being destroyed in that scan.



hadomaru said:


> Whats the best Skrull has tanked? I personally beleive that DBZers have Planet Level Durability, though its not as impressive as the attacks they launch. IE, a deathball from Freeza wouldn't tickle buu.



Yes it wouldn't, because Buu has higher ki so his power can negate it/dampen its influence. Also the death ball in the manga was the attack that caused a chain reaction so I'm not sure it's even supposed to be effective on living beings. Really this is the only theory that makes sense considering they can get hurt by attacks that do so little collateral damage.

Anyway you have read Annihilation, right? He tanked being in the center of the explosion of a planet-sized weapon.


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## RandomLurker (Mar 16, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Please show me where we see the planet being destroyed in that scan.



I'm going by logic.

Toriyama participated in the making of the Bardock: Father of Goku TV-special.
He depicted Bardock in the manga and references to what happened during the special.
Therefore, it's logical to assume that the special can be considered canon.
You don't have to believe my logic. I only believe so, because it's logical enough for me.

Or you could just call Toriyama and ask him


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## Endless Mike (Mar 16, 2010)

Actually he said later after the special was made that he liked the character of Bardock so much he included him in the manga. Implies he didn't create the character or the story himself. Just because he put a tribute to the special in the manga doesn't make the special itself canon. I've argued this before.

To use an analogy, the third X-Men movie included the line "I'm the Juggernaut, bitch!" as a tribute to the internet video, that doesn't make the video canon to the X-Men movie verse.


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## God (Mar 16, 2010)

This one

Read up guys


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## Azrael Finalstar (Mar 16, 2010)

He beat the straw hats. he solos.


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## God (Mar 16, 2010)

> - Thunderclap: See the article on it
> 
> - Brain Bubble: Sort of a misnomer, as this technique refers to creating a forcefield anywhere inside of the opponent's body (usually the head) and expanding it, causing them to explode from the inside
> 
> ...



...................


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## supreme91 (Mar 16, 2010)

Frieza is way too fast for SS. If endless mike thought SS was a good opponent for the strawhat pirates, how does SS have any chance against Freiza? Nothing in SS's powerset indicates super-reflexes. At best he has HT reflexes.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 16, 2010)

supreme91 said:


> Frieza is way too fast for SS. If endless mike thought SS was a good opponent for the strawhat pirates, how does SS have any chance against Freiza? Nothing in SS's powerset indicates super-reflexes. At best he has HT reflexes.



I was only testing the OP wankers.

And yes, Kl'rt has better speed feats, see the Surfer battle above. Not to mention all he has to do to perform a brain bubble is think.


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## supreme91 (Mar 16, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> I was only testing the OP wankers.
> 
> And yes, Kl'rt has better speed feats, see the Surfer battle above. Not to mention all he has to do to perform a brain bubble is think.



There have been plenty of inconsistencies regarding characters being able to hit herald levels characters. Using common sense, Super Skrull should not have extreme super speed; just look at his power set (powers of fantastic four). The fastest he should be able to go is HT level or a little above.

If an author allowed wolverine to hit Silver Surfer and engage him in combat, I would not accept the implications of the fight. Such a feat contradicts his power set. He did not get extreme super speed as an ability, and such an indication is contradictory to common sense.

The same reasoning should be used for Super Skrull.


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## Diskyr (Mar 16, 2010)

RandomLurker said:


> I'm going by logic.
> 
> Toriyama participated in the making of the Bardock: Father of Goku TV-special.
> He depicted Bardock in the manga and references to what happened during the special.
> ...



What logic? Just because you believe so? So by your thinking, I can believe that Superman can kill Galactus just because I believe it's the only logical reason for me?

DBZ'ers have the speed, but they have never shown any planet busting or solar system busting attacks. They only implied to do so. Goku had to turn SS2-SS3 just to move a small mountain. The Thing has way more strength than this. I don't see anything Frieza can do to kill Kl'rt


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## Azrael Finalstar (Mar 16, 2010)

. Buu casually nuked earth once.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 16, 2010)

supreme91 said:


> There have been plenty of inconsistencies regarding characters being able to hit herald levels characters. Using common sense, Super Skrull should not have extreme super speed; just look at his power set (powers of fantastic four). The fastest he should be able to go is HT level or a little above.



Except, you know, he does. He's flown through space over interplanetary distances many times.



> If an author allowed wolverine to hit Silver Surfer and engage him in combat, I would not accept the implications of the fight. Such a feat contradicts his power set. He did not get extreme super speed as an ability, and such an indication is contradictory to common sense.



On the ground Surfer often lets opponents hit him, this was a fight in space when they were both maneuvering at high speed.



> The same reasoning should be used for Super Skrull.



Wrong as shown above, in addition like I said he only has to think to use brain bubble.

Anyway you're using the typical DBZ fan hypocrisy of not accepting powerscaling for speed when that's all you do, since Frieza has pretty much no actual speed feats and his speed is purely powerscaled from other characters.


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## Estrecca (Mar 16, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> In was in a Silver Surfer Annual, I forget the issue number. Here's a scan:
> 
> calced



If I am reading this right, this is an amped Super Skrull (by this power broadcast mentioned by the Silver Surfer's thoughts) and the complete absence of movement lines for the board suggests that the Surfer was standing still in the middle of space for some reason.

This is downright terrible evidence to try to argue that the Super Skrull has speed competitive with the Silver Surfer.


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## God (Mar 16, 2010)

Because Buu = Frieza amirite


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## Endless Mike (Mar 16, 2010)

Diskyr said:


> . Goku had to turn SS2-SS3 just to move a small mountain.



That was filler. Stop arguing on my side, you're making me look bad.


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## supreme91 (Mar 16, 2010)

Look at the official speed ranking for Super Skrull 
And look at the official speed ranking for Spiderman )


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## Endless Mike (Mar 16, 2010)

Estrecca said:


> If I am reading this right, this is an amped Super Skrull (by this power broadcast mentioned by the Silver Surfer's thoughts) and the complete absence of movement lines for the board suggests that the Surfer was standing still in the middle of space for some reason.



If you knew his history you would know that's the way he used to get his powers before they became internalized.



> This is downright terrible evidence to try to argue that the Super Skrull has speed competitive with the Silver Surfer.



calced
calced
calced
calced

You can clearly see they were both maneuvering in space.


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## Diskyr (Mar 16, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> That was filler. Stop arguing on my side, you're making me look bad.



What the hell are you going to do? Call the admins on me? You don't own the site and you definitely can't tell me what I can and cannot do. I stated that fact because I know supporters of DBZ may use that argument. I'm trying to support Super Skrull's reasons for winning and Frieza's reasons for losing. 

I may be new here, but your 1337 number of posting does not make you better than anyone else so may I suggest you to keep your rude mouth shut if you're going to talk smack like that? 

Troll


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## Endless Mike (Mar 16, 2010)

supreme91 said:


> Look at the official speed ranking for Super Skrull
> And look at the official speed ranking for Spiderman )



You think the Marvel site's ratings actually mean anything 

Nova's speed is ranked at only 4 when he has confirmed feats of going billions of times FTL. Comic evidence overrules all of that.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 16, 2010)

Diskyr said:


> What the hell are you going to do? Call the admins on me? You don't own the site and you definitely can't tell me what I can and cannot do. I stated that fact because I know supporters of DBZ may use that argument. I'm trying to support Super Skrull's reasons for winning and Frieza's reasons for losing.
> 
> I may be new here, but your 1337 number of posting does not make you better than anyone else so may I suggest you to keep your rude mouth shut if you're going to talk smack like that?
> 
> Troll



The point is that you are hurting your own case. Instead of politely bowing out now, you just flame, I would have let you get away with it for being new but now you're reacting like a butthurt troll, so negged.


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## Diskyr (Mar 16, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> The point is that you are hurting your own case. Instead of politely bowing out now, you just flame, I would have let you get away with it for being new but now you're reacting like a butthurt troll, so negged.



Excuse me, but do you expect me to get bullied by the likes of people like you? I stated one little thing from the anime that people may use to support Frieza's case and you insult me for it? Don't act like a badass just because you have 20,000+ posts


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## supreme91 (Mar 16, 2010)

"Super-Skrull has been genetically altered to possess all the powers of the Fantastic Four. As such, he can elongate any part of his body, emit and control flames, use his control over flame to fly, become invisible, form invisible force fields, possess superhuman strength, and transform into a rocky hide/body armor. He is also capable of hypnosis."

Nothing in his power set allows him extreme speed. His supposed "speed feat" is inconsistent with his powers. Spiderman had some clean blows on him during an encounter. So now Spiderman is as fast as Silver Surfer? During his encounter with the fantastic four he should have been able to blitz them easily, but he didn't. And obviously since comics have countless authors, inconsistent feats will be shown.


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## God (Mar 16, 2010)

SS becomes invisible and launches one Brain-Bubble.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Mar 16, 2010)

^ Well, hey, Spiderman tagged firelord


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## Endless Mike (Mar 16, 2010)

Diskyr said:


> Excuse me, but do you expect me to get bullied by the likes of people like you? I stated one little thing from the anime that people may use to support Frieza's case and you insult me for it? Don't act like a badass just because you have 20,000+ posts



Postcount has nothing to do with it. Using anime filler and saying DBZ has no planet busters and other bad arguments like that merely serve to hurt your side of the case. All I did was point this out and you got all pissed off.



supreme91 said:


> "Super-Skrull has been genetically altered to possess all the powers of the Fantastic Four. As such, he can elongate any part of his body, emit and control flames, use his control over flame to fly, become invisible, form invisible force fields, possess superhuman strength, and transform into a rocky hide/body armor. He is also capable of hypnosis."
> 
> Nothing in his power set allows him extreme speed.



Too bad, he has it, as proved in the comics.



> His supposed "speed feat" is inconsistent with his powers. Spiderman had some clean blows on him during an encounter. So now Spiderman is as fast as Silver Surfer?



He obviously wasn't using his maximum speed. It's not like Spidey could actually hurt him, considering he has the powers of Thing and Reed. Besides, Spidey has precog.



> During his encounter with the fantastic four he should have been able to blitz them easily, but he didn't. And obviously since comics have countless authors, inconsistent feats will be shown.



You know he was weaker when he first showed up to battle the FF, and Human Torch is no slouch in the speed department himself (escape velocity is well within his capabilities). Furthermore, Reed and the rest don't just go into battle willy-nilly, they use strategy and prep to fight. Stop denying what is clearly shown. In their first fight Kl'rt was owning the shit out of them until they disrupted his powers.

EDIT: BTW, Kl'rt actually showed antimatter generation as well. which would fuck Frieza up royally.

EDIT: Speed feat:

calced

This beats Frieza taking several minutes to reach Porunga who was only a few km away (see, I can use low showings to misrepresent powers too!)


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## supreme91 (Mar 16, 2010)

hadomaru said:


> ^ Well, hey, Spiderman tagged firelord



Exactly my point. His power set dictates that he's 10-15 times faster than humans, but that feat contradicts that. Which disproves the feat.


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## supreme91 (Mar 16, 2010)

My philosophy on the matter is to examine feats with a characters proven power set in mind. Your philosophy is to examine feats first and try to change a given power set with the feats. Since we differ in these key respects and thus view things with a different eye, we cannot disprove one another in this aspect while using different measuring sticks. So this debate is best left as it is.

EDIT:This philosophy is only for comics, where characters more or less have static power sets.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 16, 2010)

It makes more sense to go with what is actually shown than with databook stuff, because the primary canon overrides the secondary canon. Saying "Hey he can't do that, that's not listed under his powers!" When he clearly just did it is kind of retarded.


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## supreme91 (Mar 16, 2010)

So you think I'm retarded for disputing all of these feats  this old avy, which are all "primary" canon? I would put Super Skrull's speed feat in the same category. Common sense overrides "primary" canon.

EDIT: Forgot about Gambit beating Gladiator


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## Endless Mike (Mar 16, 2010)

There's a difference between PIS and consistently shown abilities. Super Skrull has been consistently shown to have super speed.

(Besides, a lot of those can be rationalized somewhat anyway)


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## Hellspawn28 (Mar 16, 2010)

> We never actually saw him destroy planet Vegeta in the manga.



Well we did see him pointing down his death ball attack in the manga in a small flash back, but I don't think that counts. But I believe Skrull would win this with his Brain bubble technique, and Freeza has no way on hurting him though. BFR for Freeza would be the best way for him to win IMO.


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## Raigen (Mar 16, 2010)

I've already said that Klr't wins, but I am getting rather tired of all the crap people spout against DBZ for no more reason than sheer spite. Vegeta's a planet-buster in SS, Freeza's a planet-buster at his weakest. Bardock movie is canon, it proves this. There's no getting around it. Freeza cleaved a planet in half with two fingers to show off. Vegeta fired a planet-buster at Freeza who punted it away. Get over it. They need to put in more force than the other guy can take in order to do damage and that tells you it's gotta exceed planet-busting force.

People cling to the Manga saying it's only canon when people use Anime feats which're the same as the Manga, only giving us more visual aid as to what they hell they're doing. Aside from the ridiculous amounts of filler and further PIS, the fights are the same, only longer to fill up time slots.


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## C. Hook (Mar 16, 2010)

Raigen said:


> I've already said that Klr't wins, but I am getting rather tired of all the crap people spout against DBZ for no more reason than sheer spite. Vegeta's a planet-buster in SS, *Freeza's a planet-buster at his weakest.* Bardock movie is canon, it proves this. There's no getting around it. Freeza cleaved a planet in half with two fingers to show off. Vegeta fired a planet-buster at Freeza who punted it away. Get over it. They need to put in more force than the other guy can take in order to do damage and that tells you it's gotta exceed planet-busting force.



I'm barely a DB fan and I know that isn't true.


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## Raigen (Mar 16, 2010)

Yeah, Freeza in base form nuking Planet Vegeta 30'odd years prior to the series beginning somehow means he's not a Planet-Buster.


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## neodragzero (Mar 16, 2010)

Super Skrull wins. His feats speak for themselves...


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## Fang (Mar 16, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> And as I have said before, surviving on the surface of an exploding planet is different from being hit with an entire planet destroying attack head-on, because on the surface you only absorb a small part of the blast.



What about Zenkai Vegeta's final Ki attack that Freeza deflected with a kick? Piccolo was worried that Vegeta was trying to destroy the planet (which Aldric confirmed in his French DB volume) when Freeza overheard him and decided not to take it unguarded?

Would that count? Just playing devil's advocate here.


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## Narcissus (Mar 17, 2010)

^

Actually Mike already answered your question. Page 3, post 49.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 17, 2010)

Raigen said:


> I've already said that Klr't wins, but I am getting rather tired of all the crap people spout against DBZ for no more reason than sheer spite.



It's called logic.



> Vegeta's a planet-buster in SS



Disproven already.



> Freeza's a planet-buster at his weakest.



No he isn't



> Bardock movie is canon, it proves this.



No it isn't.



> There's no getting around it. Freeza cleaved a planet in half with two fingers to show off.



Wrong, I've already explained this to you and proved it with manga evidence multiple times, you are simply trolling now since you keep making this claim which has been continually refuted. His slash was only a km or so long and it didn't even penetrate the crust.




You can clearly see the slice ends about a km away.

You are a liar, this is why everyone considers you a troll, because you have been repeatedly proven wrong and you keep making the same claims despite the fact that they have been debunked repeatedly.



> Vegeta fired a planet-buster at Freeza who punted it away. Get over it.



Possible planet buster, as there is no proof, and furthermore I already explained that since it didn't actually detonate when it hit him it's not a durability feat.



> They need to put in more force than the other guy can take in order to do damage and that tells you it's gotta exceed planet-busting force.



Except for all the times that it clearly doesn't. Negating the enemy's defensive ki aura makes more sense, as this aura is proven to exist (see Krillin vs. Vegeta on Namek. SSJ2 Goku vs. Vegeta, etc.)



> People cling to the Manga saying it's only canon when people use Anime feats which're the same as the Manga, only giving us more visual aid as to what they hell they're doing. Aside from the ridiculous amounts of filler and further PIS, the fights are the same, only longer to fill up time slots.



Listen to yourself "The same, only longer" - meaning they added a bunch of extra stuff in, meaning *they're not the same.* The anime is not canon, fucking deal with it. This isn't some anti-DBZ conspiracy, the same holds true for any series without an official canon policy, original work only. The Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, etc. animes are also non - canon.

Really Raigen, there are only two explanations for the kinds of posts you make: Either you don't even read my responses to you and just post the same crap over and over again ignoring when I completely debunked it, or you know I've proven you wrong and you keep making the same claims anyway. Either way, it's trolling.


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## heavy_rasengan (Mar 17, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> No it isn't.



I thought Toriyama confirmed that the Bardock movie is canon?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 17, 2010)

supreme91 said:


> Look at the official speed ranking for Super Skrull
> And look at the official speed ranking for Spiderman )



so basically your gonna pretend that the super skrull hasn`t done things like contain a supernova and other shit with his body

or that paibok a weaker modified skrull could tank a herald blast that destroyed a fleet and atmospheric rentry

your being biased


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## Will Smith (Mar 17, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> .
> 
> Anyway SSkrull has been seen fighting in space at high speed against Herald levelers.



Lemme guess, a Jobbing Surfer?



Lucaniel said:


> what, never?
> 
> then what're all the planet-level durability claims?



No ones ever straight up tanked a blast that can destroy a planet before. Closest person was Cell and he dodged at the last second, not to mention he has regen.


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## Havoc (Mar 17, 2010)

Tekken said:


> What kind of God awful writing is behind such a thing?


How is that awful writing?


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## Will Smith (Mar 17, 2010)

Havoc said:


> How is that awful writing?



Because Heralds are suppose to be insanely strong, but they lose to Super Skrull? Once I found out it was surfer, I stopped being surprised.


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## Raigen (Mar 17, 2010)

You're such fail. You claim I'm lying when all I'm doing is going right off what's said by the chars themselves and there's no Narrator to dispute these facts. I'm also not going by some ridiculous fan translation. I go by what I bought myself.


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## Fang (Mar 17, 2010)

Can't believe I posed an argument similar to him.


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## Raigen (Mar 17, 2010)

Fact is, there's nothing stating the planet isn't divided. Does the Artist have to include every minute detail? Does the rest of the cut not simply get smaller the longer it goes? Also, is there anything to suggest that gash does not penetrate all the way *through* the planet instead of simply across? I feel like every time someone throws out some ridiculous DBZ based thread, more and more people attempt to de-power DBZ'ers with absurd arguments to strip them of their feats and abilities.


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## Will Smith (Mar 18, 2010)

How could the planet be divided when your scan clearly shows that it is not?


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## heavy_rasengan (Mar 18, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> so basically your gonna pretend that the super skrull hasn`t done things like contain a supernova and other shit with his body
> 
> or that paibok a weaker modified skrull could tank a herald blast that destroyed a fleet and atmospheric rentry
> 
> your being biased



Can you or anyone else explain something to me?

Comic book characters have different writers, so how is it distinguished what is canon and what is not? Also how is consistency vs inconsistency gauged. For example, I always thought that Hulk was an extremely powerful but slow creature and as far as I knew, he was always depicted as that. For example in WWH, Planet Hulk etc. But you guys told me that he tags speedsters but is that not inconsistent? Or is my traditional view of Hulk being slow inconsistent?


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## heavy_rasengan (Mar 18, 2010)

Tekken said:


> How could the planet be divided when your scan clearly shows that it is not?



Yeah that is why Toriyama has some vague shit. Like it clearly shows that it is not divided yet they are so *surprised* by the attack that it makes you think it HAD to be divided. Also krillen saying " he sliced up the planet" but it only showed a small part sliced up yet krillen still said that. Very confusing.


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## Will Smith (Mar 18, 2010)

heavy_rasengan said:


> Can you or anyone else explain something to me?
> 
> 
> Comic book characters have different writers, so how is it distinguished what is canon and what is not?
> ...





The characters aren't creator owned. So, the canon is owned by the publisher.


Well, assuming we are dealing with consistent continuity showings.
The smart thing to do is too debate the character by writing trends. That's to say, we should separate the characters based on the various interpretations across their career.





heavy_rasengan said:


> Yeah that is why Toriyama has some vague shit. Like it clearly shows that it is not divided yet they are so *surprised* by the attack that it makes you think it HAD to be divided. Also krillen saying " he sliced up the planet" but it only showed a small part sliced up yet krillen still said that. Very confusing.



Their surprised by the _scale_ of the attack, It cut through an unspecified length through the planet. Raigen on the other hand is trying to state that Frieza's attack cut _through n through_. As if it sliced the planet in two, nothing indicates that.


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## heavy_rasengan (Mar 18, 2010)

Tekken said:


> The characters aren't creator owned. So, the canon is owned by the publisher.
> 
> 
> Well, assuming we are dealing with consistent continuity showings.
> ...



ohh i see, now I understand why people are so against comic vs manga. Thank you. 

You see that is the problem, there are so many instances of a character that you may virtually list any showing and claim it as proof as long as that instance has been shown a couple times. Yet even those couple times are nothing to the consistent trend in which the character follows. This is why I was so surprised at the DBZverse VS WWH thread a while ago. I always thought Hulk to be a slow character but everyone was telling me that he is a *consistent* speedster on par with hypersonic and even FTL characters. 

Yeah but still, Piccolo went from claiming Vegeta threw a planet busting attack to being surprised at Frieza causing a mere scathe to the planet


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## Will Smith (Mar 18, 2010)

heavy_rasengan said:


> ohh i see, now I understand why people are so against comic vs manga. Thank you.



The same thing can happen in manga, but it is less likely because there is usually a single author. Which makes things far consistent.


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## Fang (Mar 18, 2010)

Aren't you the guy who said Dragon Ball has "toon force"? Seriously?.

Anyway Freeza's Ki slash technique was him at 50%, screwing around, and it cut through the island to the horizon, don't know how deep the scathing was, but it looked to be a couple hundred meters deep and about a dozen kilometers at most long.

Impressive shit, but not "planet" bisecting. And even if he did cut the planet literally in half, the gravity in the core would just slam the half immediately back together.


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## Raigen (Mar 18, 2010)

Up until he vaped it anyway. Still doesn't take away stated busting of Planet Vegeta 30+ yrs prior in his base form, confirmed by the cast, King Kai, and Bardock movie. I don't see how anyone can argue with that.

Anyway, yes with manga one writer makes everything pretty consistent instead of comics with different writers and half of them not seeming to know jack about the character(s), sometimes making them weaker than they actually are or way overpowered than they usually appear to be, creating vast inconsistencies in not just appearances but even the characters personality itself.

With Freeza saga, anyone else nuking the planet would be bad. Freeza busting it woulda meant end of series with everyone dead and also no possibility of re-getting the Dragonballs for his immortality wish. Plus PIS/CIS ensuring Freeza's sadistic evil nature in gradually torturing and killing off people slowly as a means of showing off how powerful he is and only really got serious when Goku had managed to actually hurt him with that 50xKaioken (or was it 20?) Kamehameha that Freeza blocked 1handed. Then the giant Genkidama which messed Freeza up a bit, but still kept up the "gonna rape you first" instead of just planet-nuking.

At the very least the fighting in the Manga is a lot faster than the anime. Like 10 episodes of fighting Freeza is like 2-3 volumes in the Manga.


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## Fang (Mar 18, 2010)

Stop using unspecified and unknown status secondary canon events to try and save face. He didn't cut the planet in half, he didn't' bust/vaporize Vegetsei since we don't know what happened off panel aside from what Toriyama drew of Bardock and him.

For all we know Freeza reverted to his true form, went back to his base form after he launched his Death Bal at the planetl, and sat there laughing his ass off afterwards.

Is that conceivable? Yes, Zarbon knows about his transformations and henshin forms to save energy and Ki, Vegeta commented on this, therefore its the most simple and well connected ad hoc arguments to debunk your claims Raigen.

You are contradicted by Vegeta himself.


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## Will Smith (Mar 18, 2010)

TWF said:


> Aren't you the guy who said Dragon Ball has "toon force"? Seriously?.



I should've clarified that I mean't early DB. Not, later into the series.


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## Fang (Mar 18, 2010)

The manga become serious at the 21st Budokai and onward. The only blatant example of toon force was Goku going to the moon and back in like a single panel to drop off Boss Rabbit and his two cronies to punish him after he beat up his gang.


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## Will Smith (Mar 18, 2010)

What about Arale punching Blue across a country or Piccolo one shotting the moon  with no effort at all? 

Edit: I think it became serious much later than that.


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## Fang (Mar 18, 2010)

Piccolo one shotting the moon is more in line with that level of power around the end of Part I DB/Part II's start then Roshi's.

Arale has punched a planet in half in Dr. Slump, its not really a gag feat.


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## Will Smith (Mar 18, 2010)

TWF said:


> Arale has punched a planet in half in Dr. Slump, its not really a gag feat.



Wait, when Arale punched the planet in two it was a gag. But, toon force isn't really about gags, it's non sequiturs. It doesn't make physical sense despite the fact that it's being used to illustrate super strength. Otherwise it should be visual hyper-bole, but that's fiction so whatever.


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## Fang (Mar 18, 2010)

There is no such thing as physical or tangible hyperbole. You can't say "its toon force/hyperbole" that Goku kicked or smashed apart a large island if he actually did it. Therefore its not hyperbole, which is why here action trumps dialogue, golden rule. Character statements are falliable and therefore possibly wrong. 

Action is not, it shows us what they can do. We know there are a shitload of planet busters in Dragon Ball because someone whose strength and power that sent the benchmark in the middle of the second part was surpassed hundreds of times over by others.

Not hyperbole.

Anyway Arale was portrayed as being ridiculous strong from the get-go in Dr. Slump since she was introduced. Her level of strength isn't standard to DB anyway so your argument is basically groundless here.


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## Will Smith (Mar 18, 2010)

TWF said:


> There is no such thing as physical or tangible hyperbole. You can't say "its toon force/hyperbole" that Goku kicked or smashed apart a large island if he actually did it. Therefore its not hyperbole, which is why here action trumps dialogue, golden rule. Character statements are falliable and therefore possibly wrong.




Actually, the rule is we treat actions in fiction as if they are real based on the Suspension of Disbelief method. Also, it's Toon Force= Non sequitur not Hyperbole. I edited.




> Anyway Arale was portrayed as being ridiculous strong from the get-go in Dr. Slump since she was introduced. Her level of strength isn't standard to DB anyway so your argument is basically groundless here.




Where did I claim that it was, I was listing examples.


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## Fang (Mar 18, 2010)

Tekken said:


> Actually, the rule is we treat actions in fiction as if they are real based on the Suspension of Disbelief method. Also, it's Toon Force= Non sequitur not Hyperbole. I edited.



My point was Goku's FTL moon feat is a gag feat/toon force, completely out of scale and context with the actual levels of power shown in the series to it's end from the 21st Budokai in Part 1 to the Kid Buu arc in Part 2.

And it has nothing to do with not making flow in a logical sense so it's not a non sequitar at all. 

She tossed General Blue to Egypt, and punched people into space, so its scaled consistently with her level of strength in Slump, but again it has nothing to do with DB continuity since Penguin Village is a cross over when she debuted to help out Goku.



> Where did I claim that it was, I was listing examples.



Okay,  and it's still off topic here regardless...


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## Will Smith (Mar 18, 2010)

TWF said:


> And it has nothing to do with not making flow in a logical sense so it's not a non sequitar at all.



Eh. . .Logic is about the consistency of rules.  Law of Non - contradiction was clearly violated by Goku when he climbed to the moon.



TWF said:


> She tossed General Blue to Egypt, and punched people into space, so its scaled consistently with her level of strength in Slump,



Don't we analyze feats in ODB and I'm pretty sure strength is an issue of body mechanics. Does punching people into space logical to body physics, if not then we cannot analyze it. and if the Manga-ka is trying to use it as an example of super strength. Then  it's a non-sequitur.




TWF said:


> Okay,  and it's still off topic here regardless...



I'm pretty sure we are both partaking in an off-topic discussion, my man.


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## Fang (Mar 18, 2010)

Because the same force that can split an Earth sized planet in twine would render a normal human in the real world into atomized molecules or whatever isn't completely consistent in almost all of fiction. Which is why we have suspension of disbelief regardless to define that point out for everyone.

And with Arale, she isn't a Dragon Ball character, so the standard for Dr. Slump again, is not the same as Dragon Ball. So her feats are consistent in that fiction, not in Dragon Ball. So it's not a non sequitar regardless of your argument that it won't work for DB (which I am in agreement with).That should be clear and obvious here.

No one should be able to go faster than light due to the theory of relativity (I think, I'm not a physicist don't hold this to me if I'm wrong) but you have characters who can cross solar distances 40 times over in a single second while light remains stuck only moving a meter.

Anyways back to subject, Freeza's physical strength alone puts him at multi-island+ seeing as he was dusting off attacks from a PLAYFUL Goku like that.


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## Will Smith (Mar 18, 2010)

TWF said:


> Because the same force that can split an Earth sized planet in twine would render a normal human in the real world into atomized molecules or whatever isn't completely consistent in almost all of fiction. Which is why we have suspension of disbelief regardless to define that point out for everyone.



I agree, but a force like that can't be an example of physical strength. It's far out of it's parameters, it's more like an act of God. Which is why I implying the bisection of a planet too super strength is a non-sequitur. But, it doesn't matter you're right since it's consistent. I'll drop it.



TWF said:


> And with Arale, she isn't a Dragon Ball character, so the standard for Dr. Slump again, is not the same as Dragon Ball. So her feats are consistent in that fiction, not in Dragon Ball. So it's not a non sequitar regardless of your argument that it won't work for DB (which I am in agreement with).That should be clear and obvious here.
> 
> No one should be able to go faster than light due to the theory of relativity (I think, I'm not a physicist don't hold this to me if I'm wrong) but you have characters who can cross solar distances 40 times over in a single second while light remains stuck only moving a meter.




I'm not gonna hold it against you, lol. But, I'm gonna concede here. Since, you are right.


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## Fang (Mar 18, 2010)

The planet bisecting never happened anyways since Raigen is making stuff up. Freeza's planet slashing Ki attack cut through a couple of islands and covered length wise, a dozen kilometers or so at most and probably only reached a depth of a few hundred meters.

In no way shape or form is he close to splitting planets aparts with Ki techniques like that.


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## Havoc (Mar 18, 2010)

Tekken said:


> Because Heralds are suppose to be insanely strong, but they lose to Super Skrull? Once I found out it was surfer, I stopped being surprised.


What herald did he beat?

Do you actually know how strong SS is?


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## Will Smith (Mar 18, 2010)

Havoc said:


> What herald did he beat?
> 
> Do you actually know how strong SS is?



He allegedly beat Surfer, The same surfer who's skin allows him too dip into stars and emerge unscathed and take planet busting attacks from Korvac. Unless, this is exclusively current version then I really wouldn't know.


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## Havoc (Mar 18, 2010)

Ok, but he didn't beat him.


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## Will Smith (Mar 18, 2010)

Havoc said:


> Ok, but he didn't beat him.



That's why I was surprised, it wouldn't make sense if he did.


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## Heavenly King (Mar 18, 2010)

people should also remember it was frieza own planet buster that he tank. i am sure he shouldn't be hurt by his own attack


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## Lucifeller (Mar 18, 2010)

Let's remember that Frieza was FUBARed by the Namek experience. Between being cut in half by his own Kienzan ripoff, being nuked by Goku and getting caught in Namek exploding, he had to have 99% of his body rebuilt with cybernetic parts just to survive.

He's a cockroach, but being hard to kill doesn't equal being hard to mutilate/cripple/immobilize.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 18, 2010)

heavy_rasengan said:


> I thought Toriyama confirmed that the Bardock movie is canon?



No, he said he liked the movie so he made the character and his rebellion against Frieza canon by putting him in the manga.



Tekken said:


> Lemme guess, a Jobbing Surfer?



He didn't beat Surfer, Surfer won both fights they had. The point is that Kl'rt was able to tag him and hang with him for a while.



Raigen said:


> You're such fail. You claim I'm lying when all I'm doing is going right off what's said by the chars themselves and there's no Narrator to dispute these facts. I'm also not going by some ridiculous fan translation. I go by what I bought myself.
> 
> *snip*



Okay, what? It clearly shows the planet is not cut in half. Visuals override dialogue, we can see the cut ends about a kilometer away in the scan I posted. Furthermore, your translation (mine says "he cut a rift into the planet" which is equally ambiguous) doesn't say he cut it in half either. It says he "sliced it up" which doesn't imply the entire planet was cut. Technically I can slice the earth by cutting a short line in the ground a few inches deep.



Raigen said:


> Fact is, there's nothing stating the planet isn't divided.



Except for the scans clearly showing it isn't. 



> Does the Artist have to include every minute detail? Does the rest of the cut not simply get smaller the longer it goes?



It abruptly stops after a while. I don't see how you can deny this.



> Also, is there anything to suggest that gash does not penetrate all the way *through* the planet instead of simply across?



There is no lava or seismic activity. Before you say that I have unrealistic expectations of realism for a fantasy comic, keep in mind that we do see these things later on in the Namek saga, when Frieza's blast actually did reach the core.



> I feel like every time someone throws out some ridiculous DBZ based thread, more and more people attempt to de-power DBZ'ers with absurd arguments to strip them of their feats and abilities.



No, you have it backwards, the biased ones are the fanboys like you who attempt to inflate their powers to be way beyond what they actually are. The actual evidence is on my side, I'm afraid.



heavy_rasengan said:


> ohh i see, now I understand why people are so against comic vs manga. Thank you.
> 
> You see that is the problem, there are so many instances of a character that you may virtually list any showing and claim it as proof as long as that instance has been shown a couple times. Yet even those couple times are nothing to the consistent trend in which the character follows. This is why I was so surprised at the DBZverse VS WWH thread a while ago. I always thought Hulk to be a slow character but everyone was telling me that he is a *consistent* speedster on par with hypersonic and even FTL characters.



Hulk has never shown to be slow. If anything instances where he is portrayed as slow are the outliers. Sure he's not as fast as guys like Superman, Silver Surfer, etc. but he is fast. 



> Yeah but still, Piccolo went from claiming Vegeta threw a planet busting attack to being surprised at Frieza causing a mere scathe to the planet



There's a lot of stuff like that in DBZ actually. Piccolo was amazed by a small crater Nappa made when he himself had blown up the moon just shortly before that.



Raigen said:


> Up until he vaped it anyway. Still doesn't take away stated busting of Planet Vegeta 30+ yrs prior in his base form, confirmed by the cast, King Kai, and Bardock movie. I don't see how anyone can argue with that.



Of course he destroyed planet Vegeta, but in which form he did it and how he did it was unknown (it could have taken multiple blasts, he could have used a chain reaction like he did on Namek, etc.) The Bardock movie is non-canon.


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## Hellspawn28 (Mar 18, 2010)

> There's a lot of stuff like that in DBZ actually. Piccolo was amazed by a small crater Nappa made when he himself had blown up the moon just shortly before that.



Ture, but it's not like collateral damage metters in most battles since it always reduced due to the Plot. DOV Spectre against Captain Marvel for example only destroy the whole city, when their high end feats put them above that level.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 18, 2010)

Well that battle was mostly on the astral/magical plane.


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## Heavenly King (Mar 23, 2010)

i am going with super skrull


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## heavy_rasengan (Mar 23, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> people should also remember it was frieza own planet buster that he tank. i am sure he shouldn't be hurt by his own attack



Surviving a planet buster is not the same thing as surviving a planet exploding...


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## keikokusama (Mar 23, 2010)

i think Any form of Freeza takes it, with restrictions Freeza still faster n have more durability (see his fight to the death against Goku), he also has control over pyscho/telekinesis, in the 1st place he just have to speed blitz or blast him or cut him through FTW pullstop


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## heavy_rasengan (Mar 23, 2010)

keikokusama said:


> i think Any form of Freeza takes it, with restrictions Freeza still faster n have more durability (see his fight to the death against Goku), he also has control over pyscho/telekinesis, in the 1st place he just have to speed blitz or blast him or cut him through FTW pullstop



You should read the entire thread, Frieza is not speedblitzing someone that can hang with silver surfer...


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## Shagari (Mar 23, 2010)

heavy_rasengan said:


> Surviving a planet buster is not the same thing as surviving a planet exploding...


Pretty much. It's much easier to a deflect a planet buster than survive a planet exploding. 

It's like the difference between surviving a grenade being thrown at you and a grenade actually exploding. You an throw the grenade away before it denotes, but I seriously doubt you could survive the grenade's explosion. 

That's why every in DBZ tries to deflect planet busters lol.


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## C. Hook (Mar 23, 2010)

Shagari said:


> Pretty much. It's much easier to a deflect a planet buster than survive a planet exploding.
> 
> It's like the difference between surviving a grenade being thrown at you and a grenade actually exploding. You an throw the grenade away before it denotes, but I seriously doubt you could survive the grenade's explosion.
> 
> That's why every in DBZ tries to deflect planet busters lol.



There's also the fact that a planet buster hitting you and actually going off will hurt more than being on an exploding planet, due to the conservation of energy.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Mar 23, 2010)

Estrecca said:


> Personally, I'd bet on Freeza blitzing.
> 
> Super-Skrull might have the combined powers of the F4, plus shapeshifting, but I don't remember him having speed feats worth shit.



Oh how the shoe has turned from my semi-rant in the cyclops thread!!!!!  Actually,  I don't know how seriously you''d take it or if it's even a speefeat persay, but  in

FF4 #18 SEPTEMBER 1963: A Skrull Walks Among Us!
-The feats-

1. Skrull stretches his entire body, and the narrator notes in exactly 30 seconds he covers 100 miles to the Skrull sea to retrieve a fish from the bottom of the ocean. Said 30 seconds if for the trip there and back.

2. Reed winds up to hit SS with his arms stretched up into a hammer, and before Reed can hit him SS stretches his arm from New York all the way to the Palisade Shore, grabs some earth, brings it back, and blocks the attack. Said feat was noted to have occured in a split second. 
----

I find both the above kind of funny and extremly funky, but those were in his very first appearance.


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