# MS Obito vs Sannin



## Itachі (Feb 5, 2016)

*Location:* Sannin vs Hanzo

*Distance:* 25 metres

*Mindset:* IC

*Knowledge:* Full

*Restrictions:* Edo Tensei

This is Pre-War Arc Obito.


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## hbcaptain (Feb 5, 2016)

Sannin can't touch Obito and Obito stil can touch the sannin using Kamui projectiles , basically he wins high diff .


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## Icegaze (Feb 5, 2016)

Sanin win this 

2 of the 3 can use clones . Obito is going have a hard time wrapping any of them without interference 

Frog katas would also be a massive surprise attack issue

Reactions: Winner 1


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## hbcaptain (Feb 5, 2016)

I forgot about Pa&Ma's Genjutsu , the sannin win due to that .


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## Clowe (Feb 5, 2016)

Obito solos the Sannin, genjutsu takes care of summons and he proceeds to warp, none of them are fast enough to escape.

He was keeping up with a team vastly superior to these three by himself. Naruto, the most proficient clone user in the manga would have been soloed had it not been for Kakashi.


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## Icegaze (Feb 5, 2016)

Naruto is far from the most proficient clone user 

Very far 

His clone has no tricks to it . Like none at all 

Obito ain't reacting to something he can't sense in the form of frog katas

How can obito genjutsu the Summons when their partners would break them out shortly after . A waste of obito time if you ask me


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## Rocky (Feb 5, 2016)

Naruto legit pwned Kakuzu with a clone trick.


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## Clowe (Feb 5, 2016)

He doesn't need to see attacks to pass through them, as long as Jiraiya makes an attack gesture Obito will use Kamui and pass through effortlessly.

And he can just Genjutsu the summons again, ain't like he's gonna run out of chakra or anything. Although Katsuyu can split so she'll be more troublesome, nothing that he can't handle though, healing is useless here since Obito doesn't need to harm them to defeat them, and he's fast enough to avoid the acid. On the other hand the Sannin ain't fast enough to escape from a warp attempt.

They get soloed.


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## copydog123 (Feb 5, 2016)

Sannin fodderizes Obito and Oro steals him as specimen for his next research.


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## Alucardemi (Feb 5, 2016)

Obito dances around them. Dude intercepted point-blank Jinton and clearly reacted to a Raikage bum-rush seemingly even faster than Minato. They're never touching him, they don't have the speed.

Neither the wits to catch him in feints. Obito's one of the most skilled and tactical fighters in the entire manga. If the Bee, Gai, Naruto and Kakashi team-up couldn't touch him, the Sannin sure as shit aren't doing it.


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## ARGUS (Feb 5, 2016)

Obito wins 

 -- genjutsu one shots orochimaru. And puts him out of commission 

 -- all summons are non factor, and will be ravaged by katon 

 -- all attacks are slipped through. Tsunade eventually gets beheaded by a giant shuriken. AndJiraiya simply gets sent to kamui


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## Saru (Feb 5, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Frog katas would also be a massive surprise attack issue




Obito has full knowledge.

***​
This is a close match up IMO, but I think Obito would win. We've already seen him keep pace with faster opponents in Gai and KCM Naruto (who were also using combination attacks), and that was without Obito using any sort of jutsu other than Kamui. If Jiraiya attempted to achieve Sage Mode, Tsunade and Orochimaru would have to buy time, and Tsunade would stand a high chance of being sent to Boxland since she's the most physically aggressive of the Sannin. By the time Jiraiya has entered Sage Mode, Obito might have already taken out a third of his team.

The only way the Sannin can feasibly win is through Gama Rinshou, and even then, Obito has Izanagi as insurance.

It would likely be a solid high to extreme difficulty match for Obito, but I think he would come out victorious nonetheless.


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## Ersa (Feb 5, 2016)

Obito wins by playing it smart and utilizing genjutsu.

He was able to control someone with genjutsu protection (Yaguya) so he could have Tsunade punch her own head off or Jiraiya fuck up the SM process and turn into stone. And from a portrayal aspect, we're looking at a two tier difference here so numbers aren't a factor in any respect.


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## Saru (Feb 5, 2016)

Ersa said:


> Obito wins by playing it smart and utilizing genjutsu.
> 
> He was able to control someone with genjutsu protection (Yaguya) so he could have Tsunade punch her own head off or Jiraiya fuck up the SM process and turn into stone. And from a portrayal aspect, we're looking at a two tier difference here so numbers aren't a factor in any respect.




Two tier? I wouldn't rate Obito that highly over any of the Sannin, personally. The Yagura thing is also ambiguous, because Danzo said "maybe" Yagura had established full control over Sanbi. I don't doubt Obito's ability to genjutsu boss summons, but using genjutsu to manipulate Tsunade into fighting someone else is a huge stretch IMO. Obito was never praised for his genjutsu prowess.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Feb 5, 2016)

Obito got his arm destroyed by Torune and Fu...

The sanin win by two ways.

Either they out last Obito which is possible because Obito can't go intangible forever or they non stop barrage him while Jiraiya goes into SM then frog song one shots.

But I can also see Obito winning if he warps one of them early.


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## Ersa (Feb 5, 2016)

Saru said:


> Two tier? I wouldn't rate Obito that highly over any of the Sannin, personally. The Yagura thing is also ambiguous, because Danzo said "maybe" Yagura had established full control over Sanbi. I don't doubt Obito's ability to genjutsu boss summons, but using genjutsu to manipulate Tsunade into fighting someone else is a huge stretch IMO. Obito was never praised for his genjutsu prowess.


I think there's a two tier gap between the Sannin and Obito.

Tier 1
Nagato
Edo Itachi/Minato
Obito

Tier 2
Sick Itachi
Killer B
NBD auto-SM Jiraiya

Tier 3
Tsunade/Orochimaru/Jiraiya



Obito's genjutsu is of a very high level, not on par with Itachi but not that far either.


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## Saru (Feb 5, 2016)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Obito got his arm destroyed by Torune and Fu...




You should go back and reread that fight. Fū and Torune's teamwork played no role in Obito's arm getting fucked up. It was Obito deciding to take action and go in for a quick warp and Torune managing to react by infecting his arm mid-warp. I _want_ to believe the Sannin can beat Obito, but they don't have unique abilities like the ones Torune had, and when Obito fought opponents that were faster than any of the Sannin 100 chapters later, he was able to fend off their combination without receiving a scratch.




Ersa said:


> I think there's a two tier gap between the Sannin and Obito.
> 
> Tier 1
> Nagato
> ...




I would probably have something more like:

*Elites:*
Nagato
Madara (Mangekyō Sharingan)
Minato
Itachi (Healthy) / *Obito (Mangekyō Sharingan)* / Tobirama / Killer B
Danzō (Kotoamatsukami)

--


*High Kage:*
Naruto (Sage Mode) / Sasuke (Mangekyō Sharingan)
*Jiraiya* / Kakashi  / Gai 
*Orochimaru (no Edo Tensei)*
Ōnoki
A
*Tsunade*

***​
Match ups are still a thing, but I do agree that Obito is a cut above any of the Sannin.




> Obito's genjutsu is of a very high level, not on par with Itachi but not that far either.




Yeah, that's the maybe I was talking about. Yagura's databook entry probably adds some clarification. Either way I wouldn't really be surprised if Obito did genjutsu someone with control over their bijuu, as Sasuke was able to suppress the tailed beast in Naruto at the beginning of Part 2 before he had even obtained the Mangekyō. Obito may have done something similar to subjugate Sanbi and then used genjutsu to control Yagura. Either way, I still think it would be a bit of stretch to say that Obito would be capable of controlling someone on the level of the Sannin (especially someone with Tsunade's precision in chakra control) to such an extreme extent in the middle of a disadvantaged battle.


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## Hazuki (Feb 6, 2016)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> But I can also see Obito winning if he warps one of them early.



actually, even if obito warp jiraiya or orochimaru 
i'm sure that they can find a way to come back thanks to their summon


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 6, 2016)

Given the Sannin's praise, I don't think MS Obito can handle all of them at once until the War Arc where he attained the Rinnegan.


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## Icegaze (Feb 6, 2016)

Saru said:


> Obito has full knowledge.
> 
> ***​
> This is a close match up IMO, but I think Obito would win. We've already seen him keep pace with faster opponents in Gai and KCM Naruto (who were also using combination attacks), and that was without Obito using any sort of jutsu other than Kamui. If Jiraiya attempted to achieve Sage Mode, Tsunade and Orochimaru would have to buy time, and Tsunade would stand a high chance of being sent to Boxland since she's the most physically aggressive of the Sannin. By the time Jiraiya has entered Sage Mode, Obito might have already taken out a third of his team.
> ...



Means they have full knowledge as well 

All oro has to do to not get wrapped is go Yamata 

Jiriaya can jump in tsunade shadow and use that to counter attack obito when he tries to wrap tsunade 

The sanin have options tbh

I can't see how they loose 

The first thing they will do is spam the field with clones to allow for feint attacks


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## Bonly (Feb 6, 2016)

Obito eventually sucks up all three of them to boxland. Obito should be able to react to whatever they can dish out and just phase through it all, if need be Obito can start to use genjutsu,Izanagi, and Mokuton to help get the job done.


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## Yoko (Feb 6, 2016)

Obito annihilates them.  This isn't even close to being a balanced match.  Obito handled a better Sage than Jiraiya, a better Taijutsu user than Tsunade, and a better AOE-jutsu user than Orochimaru . . . simultaneously.  Even then, they only landed a hit because their fourth team member was a ninjutsu technician that had one of the manga's most broken techniques, and which coincidentally just so happened to perfectly counter Obito's.

Full knowledge means little because the above team, which is collectively much, _much_ stronger than the Sannin, had information on Kamui's function before going in,  and yet they failed to land a single blow until the other version of Kamui was being actively utilized to coordinate carefully timed hits.  And given Obito didn't actually use the Rinnegan in that battle, this being an earlier iteration of Obito shouldn't matter or hinder his performance in any way.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Feb 6, 2016)

Yoko said:


> Obito annihilates them.  This isn't even close to being a balanced match.  Obito handled a better Sage than Jiraiya, a better Taijutsu user than Tsunade, *and a better AOE-jutsu user than Orochimaru* . . . simultaneously.  Even then, they only landed a hit because their fourth team member was a ninjutsu technician that had one of the manga's most broken techniques, and which coincidentally just so happened to perfectly counter Obito's.
> 
> Full knowledge means little because the above team, which is collectively much, _much_ stronger than the Sannin, had information on Kamui's function before going in,  and yet they failed to land a single blow until the other version of Kamui was being actively utilized coordinate carefully timed hits.  And given Obito didn't actually use the Rinnegan in that battle, this being an earlier iteration of Obito shouldn't matter or hinder his performance in any way.



When was Orochimaru ever a good AOE user?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 6, 2016)

They could maybe do something with Orochimaru's neuro-toxin gas.  It's the only thing they have that Obito would get hit by between phasing.


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## Yoko (Feb 6, 2016)

Mandara no Jin.

Sen'eijashu.

Yamata.

But if you prefer Jiraiya being the AOE user (which is perfectly fine), that doesn't really take away from my main point  which is that anything the Sannin individually excelled at, the team of Naruto / Guy / Killer Bee / Kakashi could do just as good if not better.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 6, 2016)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> When was Orochimaru ever a good AOE user?



Prolly when he big bad wolf'd a forest and spit a tidal wave of snakes that in turn spit out swords.  It's not typically his bag baby, yeah.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 6, 2016)

Tsunade is a non factor here. Taijutsu is useless against Obito and her healing abilities won't be needed as Obito's main and most guaranteed means of offense is the kamui warp.
She may actually compromise their team work because she is the slowest and the most linear one here, it is likely that Orochimaru and Jiraiya may have to constantly look out to protect her.
She might end up being a liability.

I'd say Jman + Oro vs Obito would be a better match up. In which case it can go eitherway.



Yoko said:


> Mandara no Jin.
> 
> Sen'eijashu.
> 
> ...



The thing is, B was hardly doing anything. It was mostly Naruto engaging and Gai & Kakashi providing back up. And both Naruto and Gai are strictly CQC fighters without any subtle attacks so Obito had no problem trolling them with Kamui. 
Not saying he can't do the same thing to Jiraiya and Oro but Naruto and Gai are more limited in their offense and defense in terms of versatility.


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## Icegaze (Feb 6, 2016)

@grimm Actually tsunade would be obito obvious target 

She will be the bait 

Jiriaya can hide in her shadow and attack obito when he tries to wrap her 

He can do so easily since he can use clones 

Oro is also a clone user and someone who may or may not have the ability to spit himself the knstant obito touches him 

He also has a surprise factor with being able to spit Kusanagi out from his mouth 

I think either Jiriaya or orochimaru can do as good as base gai did with all their techniques , probably even better

Would be surprised if base gai with nunchucks is more unpredictable than the entire sum of orochimaru moves 

From extending neck, to extending sword , to snake hands , to use oral rebirth via snake hands, clones , controlling Kusanagi with his fingers 

Base gai , KCM naruto and Kakashi may have more fire power however are far more predictable in battle


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 6, 2016)

He activates Izanagi and warps all 3 while receiving mortal injuries, which do not stop him.

Steel rod in Jiraiya's head [1] via Izanagi blindside would prove faster than warping him.

The others just get warped to bypass their regeneration, this is done methodically with Izanagi blindside, and Bakufu Ranbu [1]/Mokuton [2] distractions leading to a teleporation blindside [1] or those attacks coming out of the teleportation/Izanagi blindside. 

As for these three hitting him at any time, that's impossible. With Izanagi running, it doesn't matter if their attacks touch him, bar a beheading, he can continue to warp anyone while receiving mortal injuries because the guy wasn't killed by a Raikiri through the heart , warped away right afterward and then casted a Six Paths Coffin Seal before KCM Minato laid on a full body slash spilling his blood like milk , which was even prior to his body being further damaged by chakra rods spewing out of it [2], and did not even pass out prior to the Juubi hopping in him. 

Barring a Tsunade headshot punch, I don't think anything would stop this guy from warping his target if he gets his hand on them before they get their hand on him. Given the Izanagi blindside potential, his teleporation blindside potential, and Bakufu Ranbu which sets both up rather well, I see no reason why he wouldn't be able to put his hand on his target and warp them before losing his life (and poofing back somewhere). 

Assuming he is "killed" prior to completing Kamui on an opponent (Tsunade headshots, Orochimaru headshots with Kusanagi), he just poofs on the other side of them with his hand on them again with Izanagi, and begins warping nigh instantly, and that time it'd work.


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## Yoko (Feb 6, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> And both Naruto and Gai are strictly CQC fighters without any subtle attacks so Obito had no problem trolling them with Kamui.




I wouldn't classify Bijuudama as a strictly CQC move. Naruto was also actively using Kage Bunshin in that fight (that's how they hit Obito in the end) so I wouldn't call that an advantage that Jiraiya or Orochimaru has over him. Guy also has Hirudora and Asa Kujaku, but I concede that point because he didn't use them against Obito.



> Not saying he can't do the same thing to Jiraiya and Oro but Naruto and Gai are more limited in their offense and defense in terms of versatility.




I can agree if we're just gauging what jutsu they actually used in that fight.  Overall, though, I'd argue they're far more versatile.

I can't agree with "BM Naruto + base Guy + Kakashi providing sniping support" being less versatile or dangerous than Orochimaru and Jiraiya.  Naruto can literally do everything that Jiraiya can barring Katons which is easily offset by having access to Rasenshuriken.  Orochimaru's AOE snake attacks pale in comparison to Bijuudama, and Naruto's Bijuu avatar's yellow-flash-level speed makes him tens of times more dangerous.  BM Naruto alone is stronger than the Sannin as a collective unit.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 6, 2016)

Yoko said:


> I wouldn't classify Bijuudama as a strictly CQC move. Naruto was also actively using Kage Bunshin in that fight (that's how they hit Obito in the end) so I wouldn't call that an advantage that Jiraiya or Orochimaru has over him. Guy also has Hirudora and Asa Kujaku, but I concede that point because he didn't use them against Obito.



The thing is, Naruto's KB tactic only worked because of Kamui.
Otherwise Naruto himself wasn't utilizing bunshins effectively. As much as Naruto's bunshin strategies are cool and all Obito can just go intangible and they become useless.

Once they figured a way to circumvent his phasing with Kakashi's Kamui, they started steamrolling him. But then, you don't need Naruto's skillset to accomplish that because Kamui was the key here. As long as you can bait him into phasing, Kakashi's Kamui would compliment the abilities of any other Kage level with similar success. More or less.




> I can agree if we're just gauging what jutsu they actually used in that fight.  Overall, though, I'd argue they're far more versatile.


I'd say Naruto's attacks don't have much subtlety and they are all variants of pretty much the same thing and most of them are delivered in close quarters. 
Kamui counters everything, but it is particularly good at countering CQC and melee attacks. 



> I can't agree with "BM Naruto + base Guy + Kakashi providing sniping support" being less versatile or dangerous than Orochimaru and Jiraiya.  Naruto can literally do everything that Jiraiya can barring Katons which is easily offset by having access to Rasenshuriken.  Orochimaru's AOE snake attacks pale in comparison to Bijuudama, and Naruto's Bijuu avatar's yellow-flash-level speed makes him tens of times more dangerous.  BM Naruto alone is stronger than the Sannin as a collective unit.



Conscious and effective use of Kamui is certainly a stronger asset than anything Jiraiya or Oro has but like I said, once Kakashi has figured it out, Obito got steamrolled. 
He was causing problems before when Gai and Naruto were attacking him CQC.

I don't think any AOE attack in itself is valuable here, so Bijuudama's superiority over Jiraiya or Oro's arsenal is not that important. Bijuudama became handly only because it forced Obito to go fully intangible and as a result got him tagged by Naruto's clone inside the dimension.

If Oro and Jiraiya go for a similar tactic, which will be hard without Kamui, then any AOE attack that can force Obito to go intangible will cause a similar effect, regardless of its strength in comparison to a bijuudama.


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## Saru (Feb 6, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Naruto and gai combo had no element of surprise to it or an attack in his blind spot . Not like what Jiriaya can pull off by hiding in tsunade shadow for example
> 
> Cleaning house with AoE techniques means he will be met by AoE techs from the sanin . Bunta comes out and makes obito katon irrelevant
> 
> Obito fire barrier tech is quite useful though .




My point being that Kage Bunshin feinting probably wouldn't be an effective strategy if Obito could handle Naruto's Kage Bunshin feints, and the Sannin have far less chakra to divide amongst the Bunshin in the first place.




> Point is he isn't lol wrapping them as they can easily take that out of the equation . Especially in oro case




Orochimaru's, like, the only one of the Sannin who can avoid it due to his size.


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## Alucardemi (Feb 6, 2016)

I'm not sure Orochimaru can avoid it due to his size. Long-range version of Kamui could warp the Hachibi, so I don't see why close-range cannot perform a similar feat.


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## Itachі (Feb 6, 2016)

Imo this match goes to Obito 8.5/10 times, Sannin are versatile but I can't really see it going their way.


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## Icegaze (Feb 6, 2016)

Saru said:


> My point being that Kage Bunshin feinting probably wouldn't be an effective strategy if Obito could handle Naruto's Kage Bunshin feints, and the Sannin have far less chakra to divide amongst the Bunshin in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not if Jiriaya goes into sage mode 

Oro can also use senjutsu , naruto doesn't have more chakra than nature itself 

Jiriaya can avoid by simply using clones repeatedly 

Obito fighting style makes it so easy for Jiriaya to go into SM 

Off the bat they all summon their boss summon . Jiriaya creates a clone and hides in bunta mouth to gather SM 

Oro after summoning manda can then go yamata

Now at this point your argument is probably obito would have got in close range with 1 of them and already wrapped them 

To which I disagree firmly 



This is the same guy who couldn't wrap base gai quickly . Gai could fend him off , I don't assume he will be able to here 

Or while Jman and oro summon , tsunade throws smoke bombs . Obito ain't rushing in blind here 

It's 3 vs 1 any sanin can buy a few seconds for the other to set up themselves to prevent wrapping all together 

Obito gets himself killed 

KCM naruto , gai and Kakashi though stronger also did not use the full extent of their skills to fight obito

I mean obito actually never even got the chance to engage Kakashi , and that was with just KCM naruto charging at him

boss summons would be an annoyance as they provide very adequate cover for the sanin


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## Eliyua23 (Feb 6, 2016)

Obito got his shit kicked in by Konan and needed Izanagi to survive , he got touched by Fu and Torune , Danzo thought he could beat him , Obito would have a tough fight with any one of the Sannin all 3 of them and they take him decisively , the problem with Obito in this incarnation is that he has little to no offense he has nothing in his arsenal that could put them down for good.


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## Saru (Feb 6, 2016)

*@Icegaze:* Jiraiya's attempt to hide in Bunta's mouth gets laughed at. Obito pops up in Bunta's mouth with him and warps him. Yamata is largely useless since Obito can just... Phase through it. It's not particularly fast. And Tsunade is certainly to slow to avoid Kamui. This is not about coordination; it's about speed. The Sannin as a unit have attacks which are too slow to strike Obito. There's also the fact that he can likely outlast all of them.



Eliyua23 said:


> Obito got his shit kicked in by Konan and needed Izanagi to survive , he got touched by Fu and Torune , Danzo thought he could beat him , Obito would have a tough fight with any one of the Sannin all 3 of them and they take him decisively




Konan has something that none of the Sannin have and required tons of prep to accomplish. Fuu and Torune didn't do jack to Obito, and the Sannin can't do what Torune did because they don't have microscopic bugs surrounding their body (Obito's only needed point of contact). Danzo's thoughts are irrelevant. Part 1 Sasuke thought he could beat Itachi.




> the problem with Obito in this incarnation is that he has little to no offense he has nothing in his arsenal that could put them down for good.




Kamui puts people down for good.


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## Icegaze (Feb 6, 2016)

Of course obito phases through Yamata. However he can't wrap it like at all 

Obito is going to wrap in bunta mouth ? With no knowledge Jiriaya is in bunta mouth 

Didn't know he was omnipotent 

That's some saru knowledge for you 


It's all about coordination . He isn't 3 times faster than them


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## LostSelf (Feb 6, 2016)

Two speedesters couldn't lay a hand on Obito. In fact, Gai was better in base, considering not even his speed would've been able to tag Obito.

I don't see a possible maneuver that would allow them to tag him. He's just too broken and they lack unpredictable jutsus.


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## Saru (Feb 6, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Of course obito phases through Yamata. However he can't wrap it like at all
> 
> Obito is going to wrap in bunta mouth ? With no knowledge Jiriaya is in bunta mouth
> 
> ...




I mean, if he sees him enter his mouth and has full knowledge, then yeah... The Sharingan can see chakra.

And Obito doesn't have to be three times faster with Kamui. In fact, I would guess that he's a tad bit slower than Gai  and definitely slower than KCM Naruto... But Sharingan precognition negates a non-instantaneous speed advantage heavily. Sharingan precognition and Kamui is about as good as it gets in terms of adaptability, because speed disadvantages can be buffered with precognition, and all other kind of disadvantages (size, strength, skill, lethality, etc.) are negated by Kamui.


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## Bringer (Feb 6, 2016)

You know... With full knowledge it might be beneficial for one of the Sannin's to get warped into box land...


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## Icegaze (Feb 6, 2016)

Saru said:


> I mean, if he sees him enter his mouth and has full knowledge, then yeah... The Sharingan can see chakra.
> 
> And Obito doesn't have to be three times faster with Kamui. In fact, I would guess that he's a tad bit slower than Gai  and definitely slower than KCM Naruto... But Sharingan precognition negates a non-instantaneous speed advantage heavily. Sharingan precognition and Kamui is about as good as it gets in terms of adaptability, because speed disadvantages can be buffered with precognition, and all other kind of disadvantages (size, strength, skill, lethality, etc.) are negated by Kamui.



Like how it sees someone hiding in hidden mist 

Sharingan isn't perfect mate 

Certainly he negates a lot with Kamui however his eyes can still be fooled easily so 

As shown through out the manga


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## Saru (Feb 6, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Like how it sees someone hiding in hidden mist




Well, Gamabunta and Jiraiya don't share the same chakra, so Obito won't have that problem.


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## Icegaze (Feb 6, 2016)

Rinnegan couldn't see naruto in bunta mouths

Enough said


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## Clowe (Feb 6, 2016)

Oh and warping giant things is not really that much trouble as shown with Kakashi warping Gyuki in seconds, so Yamata and summons are also susceptible to that.


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## Icegaze (Feb 6, 2016)

With his chakra boosted 3 times 
It's cute when people try to forget that 

Really cute


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## $Kakashi$ (Feb 6, 2016)

Even if one of them gets sucked up via kamui, they can still help the other two by attacking the body there.


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## Alucardemi (Feb 6, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> With his chakra boosted 3 times
> It's cute when people try to forget that
> 
> Really cute



And Obito has a pretty equivalent booster in the form of Senju DNA, on top of already having more chakra and chakra quality than Kakashi due to being Uchiha.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 6, 2016)

Kakashi's abilities with Kamui seemed to be on par with Obito's without Kurama's Chakra. With it, it should far exceed Obito's. Having Senju DNA shouldn't be enough to yield a 3x boost to Obito's base abilities.


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## LostSelf (Feb 6, 2016)

The only way the method of hitting an intangible Obito would work is if they force Obito to phase in the same place he warped somebody.

If he moves, then the other guy/girl in Kamuiland should anticipate where he will appear. Not so easy when Obito can avoid it.

Now, Tsunade could do something cool if she creates a lot of Katsuyu clones to keep watch and spit acid. She might get him that way, tbh.


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## Alucardemi (Feb 6, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Kakashi's abilities with Kamui seemed to be on par with Obito's



Obito is an Uchiha and the eye's original user. There's no way or form this belief is true in portrayal.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Feb 6, 2016)

Saru said:


> *@Icegaze:* Jiraiya's attempt to hide in Bunta's mouth gets laughed at. Obito pops up in Bunta's mouth with him and warps him. Yamata is largely useless since Obito can just... Phase through it. It's not particularly fast. And Tsunade is certainly to slow to avoid Kamui. This is not about coordination; it's about speed. The Sannin as a unit have attacks which are too slow to strike Obito. There's also the fact that he can likely outlast all of them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




What would Obito do against Koto ? and the Sannin have something Konan didn't have numerous array of techniques , and man power to bother Obito


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 7, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> Two speedesters couldn't lay a hand on Obito. In fact, Gai was better in base, considering not even his speed would've been able to tag Obito.
> 
> I don't see a possible maneuver that would allow them to tag him. He's just too broken and they lack unpredictable jutsus.



His Katons and Shurikens wont do much and if he absorbs one of them, the absorbed Sannin can attack him when he uses Kamui to go through other Sannin's attacks.


----------



## LightningForce (Feb 7, 2016)

Alucardemi said:


> Obito is an Uchiha and the eye's original user. There's no way or form this belief is true in portrayal.



Kakashi has had the eye for about as long as Obito has.

Experienced similar trauma to attain the 3-tomoe variant (and acquired MS at the same time, although he didn't know about it back then).

Was known as 'Kakashi of the Sharingan,' a moniker separate and surpassing the reputation of some of the most reputable Uchiha in the clan.

Copied over 1000 jutsu; could use Sharingan genjutsu on ANBU ROOT level members.

Mastered his MS over about a year. Although he suffered severe side effects from using it, that didn't diminish his ability to utilize it effectively and even outplay Obito a few times.

Later on, we have this, indicating that the full power of Obito's set of eyes can be brought out by two people.

And of course, last but not least, DMS Kakashi had a superior showing and release of Obito's power (Kamui Raikiri, Kamui Shuriken, Perfect Susano'o).

That Kakashi was below Obito in terms of doujutsu is a heavy downplay of the former's skill, especially when, again, we had this to indicate otherwise.

So yeah, by portrayal *Kakashi is equal if not superior* in some aspects of using Obito's Sharingan set. The only thing that was ever stopping him was the additional chakra drainage from being a non-Uchiha.

--

As for the match, people are really, really downplaying the efficacy of having more than one opponent against Obito, and the Sannin are not getting stomped with *full knowledge of Obito's abilities*. Obito's ability is only dangerous one-on-one; when he warped one of his foes on two instances in the manga, he literally got fucked over:





The warped members can and will exploit Obito's connection to the Kamui dimension. Once that happens, Obito loses his main arsenal to win the match.


----------



## Alucardemi (Feb 7, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> Kakashi has had the eye for about as long as Obito has.
> 
> Experienced similar trauma to attain the 3-tomoe variant (and acquired MS at the same time, although he didn't know about it back then).
> 
> ...



So, lets see. He copied some fodder jutsu. Used genjutsu on Anbu fodder. Suffers severe side-effects whenever he used the Sharingan. Needed diversions and help from Naruto and Gai to successfully con Obito -- otherwise Obito cancelled his Kamui with no effort, twice over. 
And what, you're trying to use DMS Kakashi, the guy literally _using Obito's chakra and soul_? Really? Hey, I guess this means that the original eye-user does have superior prowess, by default, like its stated in the manga. Not to mention, y'know, Rikudou Chakra.

Please. Kakashi is a bit chump compared to Obito. He relied mostly on power Obito gave him. 

Come back when he can do something like control Mizukages, supress Bijuus, and whatnot with his Sharingan. Obito cancelled his shitty Kamui snipe twice over. And you're telling me Kakashi is more proficient, despite not being the original eye-user? Please.


----------



## LightningForce (Feb 7, 2016)

Alucardemi said:


> So, lets see.



Let's see indeed.



> He copied some fodder jutsu.



Copied Suiton: Suiryudan, a B-rank ninjutsu, with a total of 44 handseals [1][2], exactly matching Zabuza, a skilled Suiton user himself, in both execution and power of the jutsu.

Tripped out Zabuza and copied Suiton: Daibakufu, an A-rank jutsu, before Zabuza could even use it himself [1] [2].

Copied Rasengan, an A-rank ninjutsu [1].

Mind you, this was before Kishi discarded the practical application of Sharingan being able to copy movements.

I don't know where you get this notion that he only copied 'fodder jutsu,' since we know that he can at least copy A-rank ninjutsu, and which would fall under the 1000 jutsu he's ever copied. Definitely not 'fodder jutsu,' and definitely one of the most impressive usages of Sharingan we've ever seen.



> Used genjutsu on Anbu fodder.



He also equally canceled out Obito's genjutsu, mind you [1].



> Suffers severe side-effects whenever he used the Sharingan.



In Part I that was the case, but that notion was discarded from the beginning of Part II, and replaced with the dangerous side-effects of using the MS instead. Unless you can find me an instance of Kakashi losing his step or passing out from exhaustion due to Sharingan *alone* after the timeskip. 



> Needed diversions and help from Naruto and Gai to successfully con Obito -- otherwise Obito cancelled his Kamui with no effort, twice over.



And how does that make him inferior to Kakashi? The two eyes cancel each other out. Kakashi can go in and out of the dimension. His Kamui snipe is extremely fast, accurate, and precise. Obito can't defeat Kakashi in the same manner as he does to most others.



> And what, you're trying to use DMS Kakashi, the guy literally _using Obito's chakra and soul_? Really? Hey, I guess this means that the original eye-user does have superior prowess, by default, like its stated in the manga. Not to mention, y'know, Rikudou Chakra.



And *was Obito in control of Kakashi?* Did Kakashi's skill with Kamui diminish or did he indicate that he was not in complete control of his newfound eye powers? I never saw Obito using Susano'o, not even a ribcage version, during the time he had both of his eyes.



> Please. Kakashi is a bit chump compared to Obito. *He relied mostly on power Obito gave him.*



The bolded contributes nothing to your argument. I am literally arguing about Kakashi's skill with Kamui, and Sharingan in general. Of course he was overly reliant on it, because from the moment he got it, that's what his main skill set revolved around.

Kakashi can literally do anything with Kamui that Obito can, assuming the same pair of eyes.



> Come back when he can do something like control Mizukages, supress Bijuus, and whatnot with his Sharingan. Obito cancelled his shitty Kamui snipe twice over. And you're telling me Kakashi is more proficient, despite not being the original eye-user? Please.





The power to control and suppress tailed beasts is an automatic ability granted by an MS user. And that includes Kakashi.



The manga has made it clear that the eyes are supposed to cancel each other out. It's not a matter of skill. You're simply grasping at straws here.

Also, don't twist what I said out of context. I said that they were *equal, if not superior, in some aspects*. Like Kakashi's long-range Kamui snipe is better than Obito's, based on feats. At worst they are equal in proficiency, based on their battle in the Kamui dimension. Otherwise, Obito would've also landed a fatal shot on Kakashi in their final clash.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 7, 2016)

Alucardemi said:


> Please. Kakashi is a bit chump compared to Obito. He relied mostly on power Obito gave him.



Let's see how far Obito goes without Hashirama's DNA.


----------



## Matty (Feb 7, 2016)

Welcome to Boxland


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 7, 2016)

matty1991 said:


> Welcome to Boxland



If he absorbs one Sannin, the absorbed one can attack him within Kamui dimension whenever he uses intangibility to go through other Sannin's attacks.


----------



## Yoko (Feb 7, 2016)

Or, he can just warp one in there, Genjutsu and kill them in isolation, and go back outside and do the same to the others.  Or he could warp them to farther areas in the dimension that do not overlap with the immediate combat zone.


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 7, 2016)

Yoko said:


> Or, he can just warp one in there, Genjutsu and kill them in isolation, and go back outside and do the same to the others.  Or he could warp them to farther areas in the dimension that do not overlap with the immediate combat zone.



Yeah, maybe. He can do to them the same thing he did to Fu and Torune.


----------



## LightningForce (Feb 7, 2016)

Yoko said:


> Or, he can just warp one in there, Genjutsu and kill them in isolation, and go back outside and do the same to the others.  Or he could warp them to farther areas in the dimension that do not overlap with the immediate combat zone.



MS Obito without Kamui intangibility (i.e. fighting in the Kamui dimension) drops a good tier down. He's not taking down any Sannin without difficulty, and fighting two Sannin in a row will definitely be hard for him, especially if it's up against Tsunade or Oro who are notorious regenerators.

The Sannin can take this handily, since they have full knowledge and thus a grasp of the mechanics of Kamui as well as the secret to countering Obito's intangibility.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 7, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> They could maybe do something with Orochimaru's neuro-toxin gas.  It's the only thing they have that Obito would get hit by between phasing.



Gamarinshō could work, couldn't it?



LostSelf said:


> The only way the method of hitting an intangible Obito would work is if they force Obito to phase in the same place he warped somebody.
> 
> If he moves, then the other guy/girl in Kamuiland should anticipate where he will appear. Not so easy when Obito can avoid it.
> 
> Now, Tsunade could do something cool if she creates a lot of Katsuyu clones to keep watch and spit acid. She might get him that way, tbh.


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 7, 2016)

Obito fazes through all of their shit and either chokes them into a Genjutsu submission or warps them away one at a time.


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 7, 2016)

I never understood that aspect of Kamui. 

Like, we have seen that it' s literally a dimension of seemingly never ending boxes. 

Yet team Kakashi took advantage of him by sending a clone to wait for him, couldn't he just appear somewhere else in the boxland, far away from the first person he warped?

If not Sannin would win Imo. He'd have to bring them in and fight them 1v1 Netero style. Without warping idk if he can beat them all gantlet style.

Can anyone clear this up?


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 7, 2016)

Maybe he simply has the control to go wherever he wants when he tries absorbing his full body, but not when he phases partially- so when he does that the body parts he warps wind up in the alternate dimension equivalent of that same spot.

Or something.


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 7, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Maybe he simply has the control to go wherever he wants when he tries absorbing his full body, but not when he phases partially- so when he does that the body parts he warps wind up in the alternate dimension equivalent of that same spot.
> 
> Or something.


That's what I was thinking too. Kamui is just a really weird jutsu in general. I don't even understand why there is a projection of his body in the space being sent to the other dimension. If he is displacing that space, there should be a rift. Even if he is switching space itself, the space containing his matter would be in the other dimension equaling out to no proejction of said body part. Like when Kakashi/Madara warped into Kamui dimension there was no proejction of Kakashi, or Madara's top half.

Tobi ust use a hologram no jutsu to boot


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 8, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> I never understood that aspect of Kamui.
> 
> Like, we have seen that it' s literally a dimension of seemingly never ending boxes.
> 
> ...



There are some mysterious aspects of Kamui.

Like for example, how Obito moves verticaly when he is intangible, how he tracks his whereabouts in the other dimension(or vice versa) or why he needs to warp himself to go to Kamui dimension when he has  the capability of sending body parts or himself as a whole to that dimension instantly with his other ability.


----------



## Alucardemi (Feb 8, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> Copied Suiton: Suiryudan, a B-rank ninjutsu, with a total of 44 handseals [1][2], exactly matching Zabuza, a skilled Suiton user himself, in both execution and power of the jutsu.
> 
> Tripped out Zabuza and copied Suiton: Daibakufu, an A-rank jutsu, before Zabuza could even use it himself [1] [2].
> 
> ...



Fodder shit. Not impressive. Next.



LightningForce said:


> He also equally canceled out Obito's genjutsu, mind you [1].



In a fight Obito had to basically huide Kakashi into destroying his heart. Please, as if fucking Kakashi has as good a genjutsu as a natural Uchiha. Hilarious.



LightningForce said:


> In Part I that was the case, but that notion was discarded from the beginning of Part II, and replaced with the dangerous side-effects of using the MS instead. Unless you can find me an instance of Kakashi losing his step or passing out from exhaustion due to Sharingan alone after the timeskip.



Lol





LightningForce said:


> And how does that make him inferior to Kakashi? The two eyes cancel each other out. Kakashi can go in and out of the dimension. His Kamui snipe is extremely fast, accurate, and precise. Obito can't defeat Kakashi in the same manner as he does to most others.



Gee, idk. Maybe because Obito can easily spam that ability while Kakashi looks like shit after it? Maybe because he's the original user, and by default, a better one because of genetics?

Not to mention that he easily destroyed a Kamui barrier the size of the Gedo Mazo's head being made by Kakashi -- so how is size going to save the Sannin from a more proficient Kamui user? Since he has the ability to cancel fields with his Kamui, he sure as shit can create the same fields when sucking. Remember his expulsion field that he combo'd with a Katon? Fucking Yamata is getting at least half its body cleaved by suction if you still believe he can't draw everything in lol.



LightningForce said:


> And was Obito in control of Kakashi? Did Kakashi's skill with Kamui diminish or did he indicate that he was not in complete control of his newfound eye powers? I never saw Obito using Susano'o, not even a ribcage version, during the time he had both of his eyes.



Because Obito was half-dead and dying from using Rinne Tensei, as Naruto stated.

Give him his health and he'd do Kamui Katons the size of a shopping mall, lmao. Kakashi can go eat his 1000 fodder jutsu he never uses.



LightningForce said:


> Kakashi can literally do anything with Kamui that Obito can, assuming the same pair of eyes.



Except, you know, genjutsu Mizukages. Control Bijuus. Negate barriers the other is creating via their Kamui with the fucking short-range version. Use Kamui without a  massive stamina drain.

Face it -- Kakashi is a loser. A chump, a washed-out has-been, compared to the original user of the heavenly eyes.



LightningForce said:


> And that includes Kakashi.



Prove it. All their conversations intrinsically assume, from their only experience, an _Uchiha _with the Mangekyou Sharingan.



LightningForce said:


> It's not a matter of skill.



Oh, terrific. So you can see that Kakashi is outskilled by a ninja of Obito's caliber, at least.



LightningForce said:


> Like Kakashi's long-range Kamui snipe is better than Obito's, based on feats.



Better at what, getting Kakashi on his knees? Lol. Obito can easily -- easily cancel his barriers if he sees them. If he had the long-range version, he'd warp the Hachibi with no need for a boost.



LightningForce said:


> based on their battle in the Kamui dimension.



Yes, again with the fight that Obito was basically leading Kakashi through a leash to get the desired outcome.

I could go on, but I think I'll stop here. Dragging Kakashit's name through the mud is fun, but I anticipate much larger walls of text as this goes on. 

Stay warm and cozy in the knowledge that Kakashi is a loser, that's the best outcome.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 8, 2016)

Alucardemi said:


> Lol



Kakashi literally just mentioned that he used MS...

I don't understand why you're putting down Kakashi when Obito was gifted with vast amounts of knowledge from Madara & Zetsu, Senju DNA and an Uchiha body.


----------



## LightningForce (Feb 8, 2016)

Alucardemi said:


> Fodder shit. Not impressive. Next.



 let's take Naruto's main ninjutsu and call it fodder shit. Let's take a water dragon jutsu that Mei uses against Madara and call it fodder shit. Let's take water shockwaves that tore apart the landscape and call it fodder shit. Stay ignant, my NBD fellow.




> In a fight Obito had to basically huide Kakashi into destroying his heart. Please, as if fucking Kakashi has as good a genjutsu as a natural Uchiha. Hilarious.



Dismissing manga feats. I wouldn't expect anything else from an ignant poster like you.

Obito did not coordinate that fight. Kakashi clashed evenly with Obito, and knocked his ass flat on the ground back [1][2]. There are so many ways in which Obito could have led Kakashi to destroy his heart, and you think Obito would choose such an embarrassing manner? Obito let Kakashi destroy his heart in the final clash, and that's it.



> Lol



_Unless you can find me an instance of Kakashi losing his step or passing out from exhaustion *due to Sharingan alone after the timeskip.*_



Kakashi literally said those effects were from MS. No reading comprehension from you, and still no scans to disprove my claim.



> Gee, idk. Maybe because Obito can easily spam that ability while Kakashi looks like shit after it? Maybe because he's the original user, and by default, a better one because of genetics?
> 
> Not to mention that he easily destroyed a Kamui barrier the size of the Gedo Mazo's head being made by Kakashi -- so how is size going to save the Sannin from a more proficient Kamui user? Since he has the ability to cancel fields with his Kamui, he sure as shit can create the same fields when sucking. Remember his expulsion field that he combo'd with a Katon? Fucking Yamata is getting at least half its body cleaved by suction if you still believe he can't draw everything in lol.



I don't know what you're trying to get at. I already know that Kamui puts a good, noticeable strain on Kakashi. *Kamui only.* 3-tomoe Sharingan maintenance is nothing to Kakashi after the timeskip.

And Obito has half of Hashirama's cells built into his body. That's the only reason why he could spam that shit for so long without going blind. We know for a fact what happens to MS users (Sasuke, Itachi) when they spam their MS techniques. Almost everything that Obito could do, he could do because of Hashi cells. So again, you have no point.



> Because Obito was half-dead and dying from using Rinne Tensei, as Naruto stated.
> 
> Give him his health and he'd do Kamui Katons the size of a shopping mall, lmao. Kakashi can go eat his 1000 fodder jutsu he never uses.



You haven't addressed my point at all. Where is his ribcage Susano'o? Where was his Susano'o at all? Itachi was able to use a V4 Susano'o near death, and Sasuke could still put one up near exhaustion, if only for a short time [1].



> Except, you know, genjutsu Mizukages. Control Bijuus. Negate barriers the other is creating via their Kamui with the fucking short-range version. Use Kamui without a  massive stamina drain.





You honestly believe he could do all of that without Hashirama's cells? Hashirama's cells which allowed Danzo to wield 10 Sharingan, drastically shorten Shisui's MS cooldown, and even preserve Madara well up into his old age? Yeah, no. Sure he might still be more adept to handle his own Sharingan than Kakashi, but without Hashi's cells and Madara's training, he'd be nothing.

Seems like you just like to ignore panels that destroy your argument, including Sasuke explaining that controlling tailed beasts is an automatic ability granted by MS *at the cost of one's eyesight*. Obito doesn't have this because he's being bolstered by Hashi's cells. Give that to Kakashi, and he'd also be singing a different tune and dancing to it. 



> Face it -- Kakashi is a loser. A chump, a washed-out has-been, compared to the original user of the heavenly eyes.



You're reaching. Let me just show you this panel again, since you have a habit of being ignant about manga panels:





> Prove it. All their conversations intrinsically assume, from their only experience, an _Uchiha _with the Mangekyou Sharingan.







> Oh, terrific. So you can see that Kakashi is outskilled by a ninja of Obito's caliber, at least.



How the fuck did you even get that from my statement? Please don't answer, because I'm sure you're just going to use a sidetracked, illogical argument that simply ignores many aspects of the manga.





> Yes, again with the fight that Obito was basically leading Kakashi through a leash to get the desired outcome.



Kakashi could have literally finished off Obito and headshot him sooner if not for his guilt.




and Obito missed his vital spot, to which *he absolutely had no reason to.*



> I could go on, but I think I'll stop here. Dragging Kakashit's name through the mud is fun, but I anticipate much larger walls of text as this goes on.
> 
> Stay warm and cozy in the knowledge that Kakashi is a loser, that's the best outcome.



It's entertaining countering all of your arguments and displaying the flaws and strawmans of your argument, since the manga isn't on your side with this one. But do stop, since you'll keep on embarrassing yourself further.

Stay ignant, my NBD fellow.  Come back when you've read the manga again.




Itachі said:


> Kakashi literally just mentioned that he used MS...
> 
> I don't understand why you're putting down Kakashi when Obito was gifted with vast amounts of knowledge from Madara & Zetsu, Senju DNA and an Uchiha body.



He's just really insecure that Kakashi might be equal to if not better than Obito at wielding his own Sharingan. But that's okay. Hypocritical fanboys are the worst since they like to ignore manga feats and portrayal.


----------



## That Bastard F R E I Z A (Feb 8, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> I forgot about Pa&Ma's Genjutsu , the sannin win due to that .



A propagating sound on a person that shifts into another space?


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 8, 2016)

Obito's senses remain intact when he phases so it would probably work.

It doesn't make any less sense than him being able to see while he's doing it.


----------



## Empathy (Feb 8, 2016)

Yoko said:


> Or, he can just warp one in there, Genjutsu and kill them in isolation, and go back outside and do the same to the others.  Or he could warp them to farther areas in the dimension that do not overlap with the immediate combat zone.



How easy would it be for him to just genjutsu and kill them, though? Tsunade and Orochimaru don't go down easily, and if he fights them in the another dimension, he either can't use _Kamui_ anymore, or if he does, he risks parts of his body materializing in the real world to be targeted by the remaining Sannin.


----------



## Saru (Feb 8, 2016)

I doubt the Sannin will know where Obito re-phases to in the real world.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 8, 2016)

They'd see the parts pop up, would they not?

Especially since they can each get a number of extra eyes on the field.


----------



## Alucardemi (Feb 8, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Kakashi literally just mentioned that he used MS...
> 
> I don't understand why you're putting down Kakashi when Obito was gifted with vast amounts of knowledge from Madara & Zetsu, Senju DNA and an Uchiha body.



I'm just hating for the sake of hating because that guy seemed to really like Kakashi, lol.



			
				LightningForce said:
			
		

> let's take Naruto's main ninjutsu and call it fodder shit. Let's take a water dragon jutsu that Mei uses against Madara and call it fodder shit. Let's take water shockwaves that tore apart the landscape and call it fodder shit. Stay ignant, my NBD fellow.



Hahahahahahaha!

Holy fucking shit; you really think the Hiruzen lite-ness is impressive?

Hey, I thought you were just stroking Kakashi's cock. I didn't realize you were serious.



			
				LightningForce said:
			
		

> Obito did not coordinate that fight.



Yeah, Obito left his entire plan to become the Jinchuuriki of the Ten Tails up to chance. That's precisely what he told Madara. He was, after all, a brilliant guy(and the coolest too, according to some yellow-haired ruffian).



			
				LightningForce said:
			
		

> Unless you can find me an instance of Kakashi losing his step or passing out from exhaustion due to Sharingan alone after the timeskip.



Dang, I was hoping you wouldn't read that thoroughly. Or like, maybe just take a glance.

Guess I underestimated you. My bad.



			
				LightningForce said:
			
		

> I don't know what you're trying to get at. I already know that Kamui puts a good, noticeable strain on Kakashi. Kamui only. 3-tomoe Sharingan maintenance is nothing to Kakashi after the timeskip.



O-ookay. This doesn't change much in regards to anything I said, though.



			
				LightningForce said:
			
		

> And Obito has half of Hashirama's cells built into his body. That's the only reason why he could spam that shit for so long without going blind.



Actually, Kakashi's eye works perfectly fine despite his Kamui usage. If that's the case, its probably better to speculate that its a trait intrinsic to Kamui, rather than Hashi-juice.



			
				LightningForce said:
			
		

> Almost everything that Obito could do, he could do because of Hashi cells.



Hey, I don't really have a problem with Obito having grafted cells that give him power, honestly. No version of him without that power exists, just like no version of Kakashi without Shari--

Oh. Well, uh.



			
				LightningForce said:
			
		

> You haven't addressed my point at all. Where is his ribcage Susano'o? Where was his Susano'o at all? Itachi was able to use a V4 Susano'o near death, and Sasuke could still put one up near exhaustion, if only for a short time [1].



Uh, I think Sasuke and exhaustion isn't really comparable to being dead inside and white-haired via Rinne-tensei, you know.



			
				LightningForce said:
			
		

> You honestly believe he could do all of that without Hashirama's cells?



Why do you keep saying this? Does this make Kakashi less of a shit than Obito in some way? Is this like that penis-envy thing, except it comes down to Hashiboob instead of penis this time?

Hey, look, everyone is endowed differently, you know. Some people just get good genetics in that department~



			
				LightningForce said:
			
		

> Sure he might still be more adept to handle his own Sharingan than Kakashi, but without Hashi's cells and Madara's training, he'd be nothing.



What, is training envy a thing now, too?



			
				LightningForce said:
			
		

> including Sasuke explaining that controlling tailed beasts is an automatic ability granted by MS at the cost of one's eyesight. Obito doesn't have this because he's being bolstered by Hashi's cells. Give that to Kakashi, and he'd also be singing a different tune and dancing to it.



Er, dude. Chill for a second, take a break from the Kakashi riding, and remember that Kakashi's eyesight also hasn't deteriorated, which kinda kills the premises of this argument.

And lets not forget that, unlike Sasuke, Kakashi doesn't have the skill to supress Bijuu with his Sharingan. That's the whole reason Yamato exists, you know. Even if Kakashi was growing blind by the day, according to you, he'd still have the prowess and technique to handle a shitty Kyuubi leak like Sasuke. But he used a fucking seal from Jiraiya instead lol.

So, we have Obito taming the 100% Kyuubi, Sasuke supressing the Kyuubi, Obito likely supressing the Sanbi to control Yagura, and finally, Kakashi being unable to supress Kyuubi leaks.

You know -- when you remember that neither Itachi nor Sasuke at the point of their battle even knew about Kakashi's Mangekyou, this is really the weakest argument you've brought me. I don't even want to troll this one away, its just wrong.



			
				LightningForce said:
			
		

> You're reaching. Let me just show you this panel again, since you have a habit of being ignant about manga panels:



What's next, you're gonna show me the Sage saying Kakashi led everyone to win the battle? Oh, spare me Fagoromo, please.



			
				LightningForce said:
			
		

> How the fuck did you even get that from my statement?



Its, like, literally what you said, dude.



			
				LightningForce said:
			
		

> and Obito missed his vital spot, to which he absolutely had no reason to.



He had no reason to hit it either. He could've killed Kakashi any number of years ago and gotten his eye back, but didn't. He just didn't give a shit, man.

Like he told Madara "Either or works just fine."



			
				LightningForce said:
			
		

> Stay ignant



Okay, I will...


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## Yoko (Feb 8, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> MS Obito without Kamui intangibility (i.e. fighting in the Kamui dimension) drops a good tier down. He's not taking down any Sannin without difficulty, and fighting two Sannin in a row will definitely be hard for him, especially if it's up against Tsunade or Oro who are notorious regenerators.




The guy controlled six Dojutsu wielding Bijuu and participated in a multi-day war.  The last thing I'm worried about is his stamina.  The threat posed by regenerators is dampened when the opponent has full knowledge.  Obito binds them with Genjutsu that could hold a perfect Jinchuuriki and proceeds to decapitate them.



Empathy said:


> How easy would it be for him to just genjutsu and kill them, though? Tsunade and Orochimaru don't go down easily.




He can fry Tsunade with a Juubi sized Katons and while she's regenerating he separates her head from the rest of her body.  Or he could wield his giant shuriken or chakra rods and use his vastly superior speed and Sharingan precognition to decapitate her.  Or he could Genjutsu her and, while she is immobilized, he decapitates her. 

Orochimaru gets the Itachi treatment; he gets Genjutsu'd and immobilized, after which Obito proceeds to skewer him prior to him spitting new bodies.  Or, he could repeatedly fry him with previously mentioned Juubi-sized Katons.



> and if he fights them in the another dimension, he either can't use _Kamui_ anymore, or if he does, he risks parts of his body materializing in the real world to be targeted by the remaining Sannin.




In the post of mine that you're quoting:



			
				Me said:
			
		

> Or he could warp them to farther *areas in the dimension that do not overlap with the immediate combat zone*.


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## LightningForce (Feb 9, 2016)

Alucardemi said:


> -snip-



Don't know if you were trolling or not, but I think you did a pretty good job of getting me pumped. 

Anyways, all I'm saying is that Kakashi has been able to use his borrowed Sharingan at an equal level to that of Obito by the end of the War Arc, demonstrating expert use of Kamui. Obito himself said that the two could unleash the true potential of his Sharingan. Kakashi's problem with MS is the exact same problem faced by that of a standard MS user, who's not bolstered by Hashi cells or Six Paths chakra. The only advantage Obito would have is stamina and less chakra consumption.



Yoko said:


> The guy controlled six Dojutsu wielding Bijuu and participated in a multi-day war.  The last thing I'm worried about is his stamina.  The threat posed by regenerators is dampened when the opponent has full knowledge.  Obito binds them with Genjutsu that could hold a perfect Jinchuuriki and proceeds to decapitate them.



The only reason he was able to do that is because he had the Rinnegan, which enhances the ability to control them. Besides, the Edo hosts were his puppets in the first place, robbed of their free will; only the beasts were somewhat resisting. Besides, Rinnegan Obito is vastly superior to that of MS Obito, the latter whom we're talking about.

We don't know how the Yagura controlling incident went down. I am betting my money that it wasn't as easy as simply controlling a tailed beast in a matter of seconds.

He could definitely put them in a genjutsu, but he lacks any finishing moves.



> He can fry Tsunade with a Juubi sized Katons and while she's regenerating he separates her head from the rest of her body.  Or he could wield his giant shuriken or chakra rods and use his vastly superior speed and Sharingan precognition to decapitate her.  Or he could Genjutsu her and, while she is immobilized, he decapitates her.



This is *IC MS Obito* we're talking about. He has his mask on, and I don't think he is going to fight using Katons since he won't want to reveal himself (as ridiculous as it sounds, it's solid manga portrayal). He didn't do it for Minato, Konan, or Fuu/Torune. Obito also doesn't have chakra rods without wielding the Rinnegan. It's more likely he'll use his giant shuriken.



> Orochimaru gets the Itachi treatment; he gets Genjutsu'd and immobilized, after which Obito proceeds to skewer him prior to him spitting new bodies.  Or, he could repeatedly fry him with previously mentioned Juubi-sized Katons.



I'm not sure if Orochimaru can be genjutsu'd as easily as when he first confronted Itachi; he has a 5 in genjutsu in the third databook, higher than Sasuke himself. Again, MS Obito's style revolved around using Kamui, not Katons prior to taking off his mask. Oro can easily poison him with neurotoxins or bind his movements using a cursed seal mark. It won't be easy for him with Kamui.

But I forgot MS Obito has Izanagi, so that might be useful for him.


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## Dr. White (Feb 9, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> He could definitely put them in a genjutsu, but he lacks any finishing moves.


Human Path, or Mokuton Spike Split to the brain would suffice.




> This is *IC MS Obito* we're talking about. He has his mask on, and I don't think he is going to fight using Katons since he won't want to reveal himself (as ridiculous as it sounds, it's solid manga portrayal). He didn't do it for Minato, Konan, or Fuu/Torune. Obito also doesn't have chakra rods without wielding the Rinnegan. It's more likely he'll use his giant shuriken.


That's nonsense. Obito didn't use KAton in those situation sbecause it wasn't called for. Minato vs him was a split battle second of speed as they had other things to attend to, vs Konan it was like a sneak battle, and he was gonna abuse Kamui and just genjutsu choke her, and Fu and torune were legit fodder to him, and he treated them as such.

IC battledome Obito is not gonna worry about revealing his identity, just like Ic Lee is still going to punch sakura's face in. Those are IC characteristics completely independent of combat mindset.

Plus Kakashi already used Suiton through his mask 

[/QUOTE]


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## LightningForce (Feb 9, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Human Path, or Mokuton Spike Split to the brain would suffice.



This is MS Obito, not Rinnegan Obito.

Pretty sure that ain't Obito's tech, but Spiral Zetsu's.



> That's nonsense. Obito didn't use KAton in those situation sbecause it wasn't called for. Minato vs him was a split battle second of speed as they had other things to attend to, vs Konan it was like a sneak battle, and he was gonna abuse Kamui and just genjutsu choke her, and Fu and torune were legit fodder to him, and he treated them as such.
> 
> IC battledome Obito is not gonna worry about revealing his identity, just like Ic Lee is still going to punch sakura's face in. Those are IC characteristics completely independent of combat mindset.
> 
> Plus Kakashi already used Suiton through his mask


[/QUOTE]

There's a difference between being IC with respect to relationships between characters, and IC in battle. In the battledome, we usually assume the latter. For example, IC Madara will never use PS unless the opponent he's facing is at least on the Gokage level. IC MS Obito is masked Obito, so although he might not be worried about revealing his identity, he's not going to spam Juubi-sized Katons continuously at a character when he has better and efficient ways of dealing with them using ninja tools. His Mokuton is insignificant, literally the only time he's ever shown great usage of it was when he wore the Zetsu suit.

Scans of Kakashi using Suiton through his mask?  although that would be a pretty nice feat for him, and would enable him to use many other ninjutsu usually done by mouth.


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## Dr. White (Feb 9, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> This is MS Obito, not Rinnegan Obito.
> 
> Pretty sure that ain't Obito's tech, but Spiral Zetsu's.



Oh y bad, well then Mokuton can still kill, and genjutsu/Kamui help facilitate that. (once again I'm just saying he has the means, not that I think he does it)



> he's not going to spam Juubi-sized Katons continuously at a character when he has better and efficient ways of dealing with them using ninja tools.


He's going to need it as he sees fit. He used it when fighting multiple people at once, and vs the alliance as a whole. He is facing the Sannin here, so if needs huge LOS block, general dangerous throw away move, or a counter to something, he's going to do just that.



> His Mokuton is insignificant, literally the only time he's ever shown great usage of it was when he wore the Zetsu suit.


He still had Hashi DNA implanted in him and making up his body, which grants him usage. He doesn't need to show great usage again because the Zetsu suit didn't amp his stats higher than they were in pt. 2 (Obito was a prime aged adult, who was strong enough to block Suigetsu sword barehanded.), so as long as he can use it, he would do as god or better.

Scans of Kakashi using Suiton through his mask?  although that would be a pretty nice feat for him, and would enable him to use many other ninjutsu usually done by mouth.[/QUOTE]


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## Kurak (Feb 9, 2016)

Obito is raped.


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## Empathy (Feb 12, 2016)

Yoko said:


> He can fry Tsunade with a Juubi sized Katons and while she's regenerating he separates her head from the rest of her body.  Or he could wield his giant shuriken or chakra rods and use his vastly superior speed and Sharingan precognition to decapitate her.  Or he could Genjutsu her and, while she is immobilized, he decapitates her.



Juubi-size katon sure would've came in handy against Kakashi, unless you think Obito was holding back the entire time with the intention of losing (which is possible). Anyway, I don't think it would be allowed to get that big unless Obito started a great distance away and even so, I don't think it would kill Tsunade. It'd have to completely vaporize her to overwhelm her regeneration, and I don't believe it would based on the destruction it caused to the battlefield in both instances of its usage. Madara was capable of the same kind of katons you're referring to, which also would've come in handy. I don't agree with decapitation killing Tsunade with _Byakugo_ active either. She was treated as invulnerable with it active against Madara and only seemed susceptible when it faltered. I would think when facing five Madaras with v3 _Susanoos_, decapitation would've been a feasible threat. Genjutsu is another option the Madara clones were shown actively employing, and Tsunade was apparently able to stop it from happening to her (or if it did, she took the free shot and pressed on). 

Immobilizing her with chakra rods could work though, once he's got enough in to restrain her. But I don't think it's as simple as you make it out to be. Base Obito is less lethal than Itachi in genjutsu and taijutsu in my opinion, and base Itachi versus Tsunade is still a pretty debatable topic in the BD, even if you don't think so. I don't think it'd be as easy as Obito using precognition to weave through her every move whilst seamlessly filling her with chakra rods. Tsunade only needs to lay a hand on Obito once to end it, and it's possible if Obito's stuck while impaling her. Neither scenario is one I think would happen ten times out of ten, so the instances where Tsunade is able to lay a hand on Obito further contribute to his odds of losing. Obito having to face the Sannin 1on1 without _Kamui_ after warping them (and win each one), is an arduous path to victory. Base Kakashi was ostensibly capable of besting him under those circumstances, and I don't believe you'd argue his vast superiority over every Sannin. 



> Orochimaru gets the Itachi treatment; he gets Genjutsu'd and immobilized, after which Obito proceeds to skewer him prior to him spitting new bodies.  Or, he could repeatedly fry him with previously mentioned Juubi-sized Katons.



The Itachi treatment is pretty useless if you've no means of sealing him. If Orochimaru's caught in genjutsu, I think he has a fair shot at breaking it, or at worst, it gives Obito enough time for a free hit, which Orochimaru will then just shrug off. I don't think preempting him from spitting a new body will do anything. Kabuto eviscerated Orochimaru pretty badly, and Orochimaru just crawled right back out once he was finished. Trying to skewer Orochimaru is liable to get Obito poisoned. _Katon: Bakufuu Ranbu_, I'm not convinced is a threat to Orochimaru. Again, based on its level of damage left and how easily Naruto blocked it in both instances, I'm sure Manda or _Sanjuu Rashomon_ would protect from it, depending on how you think _Kuchiyose no Jutsu_ works in the box dimension (I think there's a strong case that can be presented for it). If you don't believe he has those options, then he can just use _Yamata no Jutsu_, which Obito will be hard-pressed in defeating. If base Kakashi can bring the fight to Obito like that, then I don't see how Orochimaru would be so easily dealt with.



> In the post of mine that you're quoting:



Ah, my mistake. That's another thing that's not as simple as I think you're making it out to be, though. Kurama was able to coordinate his attacks with Kakashi's placement in the other dimension, but later they just had Kakashi warp a Naruto KB and have him wait for Obito there. They were able to keep his full body in the other dimension by nuking the battlefield, which is pretty easily replicable through _Gamayu Endan_, whilst having some of the Sannin's forces in the other dimension waiting for him. The sensei and jinchuuriki team's strategy is replicable by the Sannin, is my point.


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## Itachі (Feb 12, 2016)

I agree with many of your points but how does Tsunade fight Obito effectively without a head?


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## Empathy (Feb 12, 2016)

I'd imagine one would grow back, similar to how Kakuzu's _Jiongu_ were still active when he was killed. [1] [2] In this case, if the user dies and there's no chakra to continue powering it, you'd think the jutsu would end, except Kakuzu showed that jutsu can continue to function shortly after death, even its power source is cut off. Again, I'm basing my assumption on Tsunade's portrayal as being invulnerable with it active. I don't think she would be treated that way if all it took was a head-shot to kill her instantly (something that part I Kakashi did to fodders [1]) to keep her down. It'd be undeserving of its hype in that case. I would think that a head-shot would've been within the realm of possibility for five Madara clones with legged v3 _Susanoos_ (not that I think one was actually done, as that would be a little too gruesome for a children's manga if her face were entirely gored with a giant sword). So in order to keep her down, I think it would take an attack that leaves her nothing to regenerate from (similar to how Orochimaru admitted KN4's _Bijuudama_ could kill him) or you'd have to outlast her regeneration once _Byakugo_ wears off.


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## Itachі (Feb 12, 2016)

Obito's not going to sit there and let it grow back though, with full knowledge he's going to try and do everything he can to incapacitate her. How long do you think it would take for her head to grow back?


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## Empathy (Feb 12, 2016)

Which he can do with chakra rods, like I said. I don't think it's going to grow back monstrously like in the _Men in Black_. [*Link Removed*] Tsunade's regeneration just sort of makes stuff mistily reappear through pixels. She's not like Kisame or Orochimaru in the monster regeneration category (at least with _Byakugo_, not _Sozo Saisei_, which I'd presume head-shots can beat).


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## Itachі (Feb 12, 2016)

Empathy said:


> Which he can do with chakra rods, like I said. I don't think it's going to grow back monstrously like in the _Men in Black_. [*Link Removed*] Tsunade's regeneration just sort of makes stuff mistily reappear through pixels. She's not like Kisame or Orochimaru in the monster regeneration category (at least with _Byakugo_, not _Sozo Saisei_, which I'd presume head-shots can beat).



Oh, I didn't read up to that part. I think that it's more likely that Tsunade's head would regen her body rather than Tsunade's body regenerating her head, simply because the seal is located on the head and I think that Tsunade needs a continuous stream of Chakra from the seal to be able to grow her head back.

I don't think that her regeneration is going to be fast though, I imagine that it would take a while to regenerate her head. Even Kaguya took a while to regenerate.


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## Saru (Feb 12, 2016)

I also think decapitation would put Tsunade out of commission for a while, and I for one believe that she could regenerate from such an injury. However, unlike Kakuzu, Tsunade's body control has not been significantly altered by kinjutsu, so without a head, her body would be helpless. Byakugou's regeneration rate wasn't slow, but it wasn't much faster than Sozou Saisei from what I remember. Her abdomen was still in the process of healing after she was knocked away by Madara's Magatama.

That said, I do think that Tsunade could paste herself back together with Katsuyu very quickly, and Katsuyu (or a teammate, provided one is available) should be able to buy Tsunade the short amount of time she would need to accomplish such a regeneration feat.


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## Bringer (Feb 12, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Oh, I didn't read up to that part. I think that it's more likely that Tsunade's head would regen her body rather than Tsunade's body regenerating her head, simply because the seal is located on the head and I think that Tsunade needs a continuous stream of Chakra from the seal to be able to grow her head back.
> 
> I don't think that her regeneration is going to be fast though, I imagine that it would take a while to regenerate her head. Even Kaguya took a while to regenerate.



While I agree that her head would probably grow a body than her body growing a head, I could see why people would think otherwise. When she uses Byakogou, her tattoos cover her entire body, and her seal is no longer present. 

Now I don't think Kishi would ever have Tsunade get decapitated. If she grows a new body then we have a nude Tsunade with her old body laying there on the ground. If she grows a new head then we have Tsunade's severed head just laying on the ground.


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## Itachі (Feb 12, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> While I agree that her head would probably grow a body than her body growing a head, I could see why people would think otherwise. When she uses Byakogou, her tattoos cover her entire body, and her seal is no longer present.
> 
> Now I don't think Kishi would ever have Tsunade get decapitated. If she grows a new body then we have a nude Tsunade with her old body laying there on the ground. If she grows a new head then we have Tsunade's severed head just laying on the ground.



While the Chakra from the seal is flowing through her entire body, her body would be cut off from that Chakra if the source was gone, no? But that's assuming that Chakra is pumped into Tsunade actively instead of all of the Chakra from Byakugo being pumped into her at once.


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