# Would you remove Gen 5 Pokemon from future games if you had the chance?



## DocileBadger (Aug 10, 2015)

The fate for arguably the most controversal batch of Pokemon to date


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## Aduro (Aug 10, 2015)

No, quite a few were lame like garbador and the tranquil line, but there were also ones I like such as litwick and zorua . Every generation has a few bad eggs and I think 5 had more really bad ones than any other, but that's no reason to throw it out completely.


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## tari101190 (Aug 10, 2015)

Yes and the few pokes that are good I would just add to the Kalos dex.


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## DocileBadger (Aug 10, 2015)

Out of curiosity which ones would be removed and the ones added to Kalos dex?


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## tari101190 (Aug 10, 2015)

Too many to list, but roughly half of them realistically.

So upto or around 78 of them. Which includes most of the legendaries, but excludes the starters.


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## Jagger (Aug 10, 2015)

No, I like them.

If anything, the pokemon introduced in the sixth generation were the least favourite so far.


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## DocileBadger (Aug 10, 2015)

156(entire Gen 5 roster)-78 equals...78. So, that means half of Gen 5 is bad in your eyes lol.


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## tari101190 (Aug 10, 2015)

DocileBadger said:


> 156(entire Gen 5 roster)-78 equals...78. So, that means half of Gen 5 is bad in your eyes lol.





Jagger said:


> No, I like them.
> 
> If anything, the pokemon introduced in the sixth generation were the least favourite so far.



Yeah but Gen 6 only had like 72 or something, so adding the good 78 from Gen 5 would make a complete region of around 150.


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## Swarmy (Aug 12, 2015)

At least 60% of my favourite pokes are from gen 5, are you nuts 

I don't understand the hate for gen 5 pokemon designs....


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## Jagger (Aug 12, 2015)

> with Dragon Dance that shouldn't even be allowed to go together.



Sounds like Salamance and Moxie.


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## Jυstin (Aug 12, 2015)

Nah nah nah nah.

Intimidate all day erry day.

Actually wait. No, that's Krookodile.

It's fine. I'll just bring Ice Shard Swinub for Moxie Salemence. Neish :]


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## Aduro (Aug 12, 2015)

Jυstin said:


> It's fine. I'll just bring Ice Shard Swinub for Moxie Salemence. Neish :]



That's still only a 2HKO in the best case scenario. Heck even the standard mamoswine set isn't a guaranteed OHKO with ice shard. The standard life orb Weavile on the other hand will destroy it. It can outspeed a mega salamence too, if it hasn't used dragon dance. Then again neither can switch in, which is why Mega Mence was banned.


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## Jυstin (Aug 12, 2015)

Always wondered why they banned things on the criteria of "It has no switch ins". I mean, no Mon likes to switch into any attack with a base of like 110 or higher unless it resists it and you predict that move, especially if it's at +1. If the opponent has a threat that I can take out, but have no switch-ins against it, that's when I make what I call a tactical sacrifice. Sometimes you gotta sack a Mon off to win the battle, or "Lose the battle to win the war".

Though in general, almost anything with a single DDance up has the potential to sweep unless you've got something prepared for it.

It's got a conundrum. If it has a DDance up and is at full health, it can live an Ice Shard (but I'd just Gen 5 crit it anyway). The problem is getting a DDance up without sustaining any damage. Or if the opponent has no priority, but then anything that's set up a DDance has almost nothing to fear if the opponent doesn't have priority.


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## Satsuki (Aug 12, 2015)

Fuck no, gen five had my favourite Pokemon


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## Jagger (Aug 12, 2015)

Jυstin said:


> Nah nah nah nah.
> 
> Intimidate all day erry day.
> 
> ...


Salamance has Intimidate too, though.


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## Jυstin (Aug 12, 2015)

Jagger said:


> Salamance has Intimidate too, though.




Yeah that's what I mean 

If I were using Mega Mence, though I'm not too fond of megas, it'd probably be Intimidate so I don't take any damage while I'm using my Boost Gear.

Scrafty I'd definitely do Moxie though. It needs the extra power. I haven't used one yet, but I've seen a few and come to expect the little hoodlum.


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## Yami Munesanzun (Aug 12, 2015)

> No, quite a few were lame like garbador



Whuh?

Seed Bomb, Drain Punch, Gunk Shot and Explosion, bruh.


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## Aduro (Aug 12, 2015)

Jυstin said:


> Always wondered why they banned things on the criteria of "It has no switch ins". I mean, no Mon likes to switch into any attack with a base of like 110 or higher unless it resists it and you predict that move, especially if it's at +1. If the opponent has a threat that I can take out, but have no switch-ins against it, that's when I make what I call a tactical sacrifice. Sometimes you gotta sack a Mon off to win the battle, or "Lose the battle to win the war".



There are always a few ou or below pokemon that can take an unboosted or even +1 hits from every ou pokemon without being totally ruined. Banded talonflame is walled by rotom-w and azumarill,mega gyardos by ferrothorn and mega ampaharos. They'll take a little damage but even if you don't predict too well it should be an acceptable loss (like if a ferrothorn takes an earthquake instead of a waterfall from gyarados). However ones that really aren't blocked by anything that is viable and legal in a tier are banned, like mega kangaskahn which quickly power-up punches or crunches almost everything it can't body slam to death outside of ubers and sets up boosts while attacking with power-up punch.



> Though in general, almost anything with a single DDance up has the potential to sweep unless you've got something prepared for it.
> 
> It's got a conundrum. If it has a DDance up and is at full health, it can live an Ice Shard (but I'd just Gen 5 crit it anyway). The problem is getting a DDance up without sustaining any damage. Or if the opponent has no priority, but then anything that's set up a DDance has almost nothing to fear if the opponent doesn't have priority.


If your opponent doesn't have anything prepared to stop a set-up physical sweeper they're an idiot or an NPC.


 If someone is able to set up something  like a non-mega salamence with dragon dance and get 6 OHKOs, the salamence's opponent has failed due to incompetence because they didn't have something physically bulky or fast enough to burn it or paralyse it, catch in in outrage and wall it, or force a switch. An experienced player will guess when you are trying to set up and burn your dragon dancer with something like cofagrigus or paralyse it with mega slowbro, or whirlwind its boosts away with skarmory or mandibuzz before it can attack or dance twice. Or send in an intimidate granbull and choose whether to hit paralysis or play rough to cripple or damage your dragon.




As for scrafty, mach punch, will kill it fairly easily if you go for an attacking nature and evs, and so will any fairy type. Its a fairly bulky mon with decent typing even after one dragon dance it won't be that fast anyway. Its best set is probably a resting one with bulk up rather than dragon dance.


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## Jυstin (Aug 13, 2015)

It's more accurate to say that standard Talonflame is walled by standard Rotom-W, within Smogon's metagame of OU. Aside from the Uber tier, the other tiers are not based on how good a Pokemon is, but is merely usage-based, so even if I'm using what's considered an OU Mon, I will prepare it for more than just OU threats.

Case in point: when the casting breakdowns for Game of Thrones season 6 surfaced.

My opponent made the mistake of assuming my Persian was standard, and grossly underestimated what it can do.

Anyway Talonflame's not the best example because even with a Choice Band, it's still just a base 80 Atk Pokemon. Plus, if you happen to have something that resists Brave Bird with decent defenses, you can pretty easily switch into it because it's usually very predictable, unless it's not the auto-pilot set. Pokemon that actually have Atk power and a wider variety of moves, on the other hand, you're always taking a chance if you switch something in on them, especially if they're at +1.

Even Weezing, as defensive as can be, can't switch into a +1 Mega Salamence's Return. I mean it can, but it'll die next turn. If it's not +1, then it can switch in and burn the sunovabitch, but in order to switch into Mons that are in the higher Atk tiers and are boosts, you need a dedicated wall, and one that resists the attack you're switching into. No team can have a wall for every type of attack, so it's always a gamble. That's why sacrifices are often inevitable, whether you keep your Mon in to die, or you switch into a Mon of yours that you don't need or has done its job, so it can go down in order for you to get a free switch.

Also not every team will be prepared to stop something that's got a Dragon Dance or two up, just like not every team will have something to counter Trick Room, or to deal with a certain weather team, or to deal with unconventional sets on popular Mons that cause them to predict wrong, or even entry hazard users. Especially if people are trying their own strategies, there won't be enough room to counter or deal with every threat out there.

I mean, it could be incompetence, or it could be that their team was equipped to deal with threats that were not whatever particular Pokemon beat them, which is why sweeps aren't that uncommon. Just like my opponent was not equipped to deal with my Persian. They were actually using Smogon standard sets, and given the information they had, made only one real mistake in the battle, which was not switching to Darkrai right away the moment that my Persian revealed to not be using Fake Out or U-Turn, because it was their only Mon that outsped Persian. But even then the chances by then weren't in their favor, since Persian was behind a Sub with Hone Claws up, meaning Darkrai's only chance would be to dodge the 80% Hypnosis the turn it broke Persian's Sub, and then dodge it the next turn or crit/flinch with Dark Pulse, or get a first turn wake up along with a crit or flinch with Dark Pulse.

Especially if you're not playing in a tiny metagame that consists of the same 10 Mons, there are too many threats in the mixed tier, and too many strategies, to predict and deal with them all.

Also I think Scrafty has the defenses to, uninvested, live a Mach Punch (Conkeldurr's doesn't even come close to an OHKO, even with a crit). Base 115 aren't they? Any DDance Moxie Scrafty would carry Drain Punch, so they're not as easily picked off by priority. Fairies, on the other hand, can be a problem. I was thinking Gen 5 with that set. Scrafty could carry Poison Jab over Zen Headbutt to deal with Fairies, but then it's open to Fighting types. Luckily Gen 5 has no Fairies, so that's no problem.


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## Aruarian (Aug 13, 2015)

Yes. There are about 5 pokemon/lines that I like from that gen. And I hated the games themselves.


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## Sauce (Aug 13, 2015)

No, they're apart of the history. Love them or hate them.


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## Punished Kiba (Aug 13, 2015)

No. 

Hydreigon, Haxorus, Zoroark, Excadrill, Braviary, Volcarona, Beartic, Zekrom, Kyurem are all Beastly.


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## Xiammes (Aug 13, 2015)

Jυstin said:


> Always wondered why they banned things on the criteria of "It has no switch ins". I mean, no Mon likes to switch into any attack with a base of like 110 or higher unless it resists it and you predict that move, especially if it's at +1. If the opponent has a threat that I can take out, but have no switch-ins against it, that's when I make what I call a tactical sacrifice. Sometimes you gotta sack a Mon off to win the battle, or "Lose the battle to win the war".



There shouldn't be a single pokemon that can freely just kill any pokemon its against without any major consequences in a competitive tier. There has to be viable check and counter, sure you can get swept by a single pokemon, but that has be by you poor team balance, make your team weak to ice? You deserve to get swept by a Mamoswine.

However a big problem recently with Smogon is that they don't like theory mon or act on it. Like if we take out this pokemon, this other pokemon could become really dominate. For example, when Aegislash was banned, people lost a viable check to Greninja.

This is why I call for a major restructure of the OU list with freeing several ubers. Thing is Smogon is scared of major change and would rather keep banning shit in OU till they have something they like.


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## Aduro (Aug 13, 2015)

Jυstin said:


> Case in point: when the casting breakdowns for Game of Thrones season 6 surfaced.
> 
> My opponent made the mistake of assuming my Persian was standard, and grossly underestimated what it can do.



They made the mistake of thinking u wouldn't break sleep clause and hit 5 hypnosis in a row. Dick move bro.









> Also not every team will be prepared to stop something that's got a Dragon Dance or two up, just like not every team will have something to counter Trick Room, or to deal with a certain weather team, or to deal with unconventional sets on popular Mons that cause them to predict wrong, or even entry hazard users. Especially if people are trying their own strategies, there won't be enough room to counter or deal with every threat out there.



Every decent team should be able to deal with powerful physical attackers, its not an obscure set like rain or trick room, its the most common way to attack in the current metagame.


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## Jυstin (Aug 14, 2015)

Hey there's no clauses in official battles. Those be Smogon-only rules. If they allow me to set up 2 Hone Claws so my Hypnosis never misses, they deserve their whole team to be put to sleep  Though tbh, I only needed like 2 Hone Claws to OHKO everything but Deoxys-D, so putting Latios to sleep wasn't really necessary. Though had I not used more Hone Claws, I'd have run out of PP with Last Resort on the Palkia, but I had a Sashed Lv1 Smeargle with Trick Room, Endeavor, Bullet Punch, and Spore, so it wouldn't have mattered. Didn't expect the Persian to sweep to be honest, but they already knew there would be no clauses since it wasn't an online battle (meaning it was a friend I could talk to) and because I told them they could Pokegen whatever they wanted to battle me with.

Anyway, there should always be something to deal with a powerful attacker. Now something with base 140 or higher Atk/SpAtk and at +1, it'll be harder to reliably wall that without type advantage, at least not without running the risk of being swept. At least, you definitely can't switch into it safely. The team with the Persian had a unique Mewtwo that had Focus Sash, Psych Up, Me First, Drain Punch, and Psychic, so it could deal with something like a Salamence that's DD'd a few times, and a Prankster Sableye with Will-O-WIsp, and a physically defensive Shuckle with Contrary Shell Smash, Rocky Helmet, and Power Split, so I guess it's a little hypocritical to say not every team would have something like that.

Especially since the one I'm training now has a completely physically defensive Weezing and a specially defensive Eviolite Lickitung with Cloud Nine that could wall Primal Kyogre for days unless it has Calm Mind, but this team I specifically made with a designated physical wall, special wall, special sweeper, physically-based mixed sweeper, physically defensive Calm Mind sweeper, and a hazard suicide utility lead with Destiny Bond. Though I've definitely trained others that were focused on other things, like one with a strong core of Wish + Regenerator Alomomola, Will-O-Wisp + Haze Cofagrigus, and Pursuit Slaking. Many Slaking sweeps were had xD

Though while that team could pull off a lot of synergy and sweeps, and could definitely live a hit after a Dragon Dance, it didn't really have anything to outright stop a DDancer cold. Unless... was my Intimidate Metal Burst Mawile on that team? Can't remember  If it was, then I retract my last statement, but I didn't have it there to specifically deal with that.


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## Aruarian (Aug 14, 2015)

Sauce said:


> No, they're apart of the history. Love them or hate them.



Spelling is important, kids.


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## DocileBadger (Aug 14, 2015)

Hangat?r said:


> Spelling is important, kids.



You mean punctuation(spelling would imply he misstyped a word).


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## tari101190 (Aug 14, 2015)

Keep Gen 5 apart from Pokemon history.


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## Lortastic (Aug 31, 2015)

tari101190 said:


> Keep Gen 5 apart from Pokemon history.



Nah. Keep Gen 5 a part of Pokemon history.

I love PWT!


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## Saru (Dec 12, 2015)

Definitely not. Chandelure, Conk, Hydreigon, Reuniclus, Escavalier, Meloetta, and Axew alone are enough for me not to.


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## Godly Giraffe - King of the Uverworld (Dec 12, 2015)

I can't even remember a good portion of gen 5 Pokemon 

Never happened with any generation that came before. Most were shit.


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## Xiammes (Dec 12, 2015)

> Eviolite Lickitung with Cloud Nine that could wall Primal Kyogre for days



Primal Kyogre is trash, literally only justifiable reason for its existence is a counter to primal groudon.


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## Jυstin (Dec 14, 2015)

Perhaps, though doubtful that it doesn't rightfully belong among the cusp of Ubers, just because P Groudon is better.

But the ability to take a STAB base 110 attack coming from a Modest 252 SpAtk Mon that has base 180 SpAtk with over half its HP left is no small feat.

That was the point.

Though a physically defensive Lickitung can perform similarly against an Adamant max Atk P Groudon.


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## Alita (Jan 8, 2016)

> Yes and the few pokes that are good I would just add to the Kalos dex.



This. The same with 4th gen mons too. The only ones I would keep from 4th and 5th gens include...

(Mega) Lopunny
Buneary
Croagunk
Toxicroak
Axew
Fracture
Haxorus
Snivy
Servine
Serperior
Zekrom
Reshiraham
Chimchar
Monferno
Infernape

There are probably a few from 5th gen I'm forgetting.


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## Alita (Jan 8, 2016)

Xiammes said:


> Primal Kyogre is trash, literally only justifiable reason for its existence is a counter to primal groudon.


Also Haters gonna hate. Primal kyogre is awesome.


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## Lucy75 (Jan 10, 2016)

Yes as well as the 4th gen.


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## Aduro (Jan 10, 2016)

Alita54 said:


> Also Haters gonna hate. Primal kyogre is awesome.



Awesome? Yes, useful in battle, no. Scarf Kyogre is way more viable because base 90 speed sucks in ubers, especially with only 90 defence. They put too much physical power on primal kyogre when its already better as a bulky special attacker, it needed defence or speed to not get f***ed by stuff like Zekrom or Hirn Leech Xerneas after being whittled down a little by U-Turns.

@Alita you missed so many awesome pokemon and evolution lines, Weavile? Galvantula? Darkrai? Zoroark? Victini? Froslass? Excadrill? Glaceon? Beartic? Gallade? Azelf? Ramparos?  IMO they all either look awesome and/or improve the metagame. They're sure better than some of the crappier gen 1 pokemon like Lickitung (although admittedly that thing's gen IV evoltion was absolutely terrible), voltorb & electrode, Mrs Popo AKA Jynx, and Mr Sex Offender AKA Mr. Mime


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## Sunrider (Jan 11, 2016)

You could ask this question of any gen. 

I personally liked fewer gen 3 Pokemon than I did gen 5, and I barely remember the gen 4 Pokemon. 

Let's just eliminate half those lineups, too.


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## Basior (Jan 13, 2016)

I prefer Gen 5 over Gen 4 any day.


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## Mickey Mouse (Jan 13, 2016)

Anybody's list of pokemon they liked from Gen 5 that does not include Golurk is invalid.


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## GMF (Jan 13, 2016)

Didn't have much of an attachment to anyone in Gen 5 other than Zebstrika, Haxorus, and a few others but no probably not.


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## Alita (Feb 1, 2016)

Aduro said:


> Awesome? Yes, useful in battle, no. Scarf Kyogre is way more viable because base 90 speed sucks in ubers, especially with only 90 defence. They put too much physical power on primal kyogre when its already better as a bulky special attacker, it needed defence or speed to not get f***ed by stuff like Zekrom or Hirn Leech Xerneas after being whittled down a little by U-Turns.
> 
> @Alita you missed so many awesome pokemon and evolution lines, Weavile? Galvantula? Darkrai? Zoroark? Victini? Froslass? Excadrill? Glaceon? Beartic? Gallade? Azelf? Ramparos?  IMO they all either look awesome and/or improve the metagame. They're sure better than some of the crappier gen 1 pokemon like Lickitung (although admittedly that thing's gen IV evoltion was absolutely terrible), voltorb & electrode, Mrs Popo AKA Jynx, and Mr Sex Offender AKA Mr. Mime



I mentioned that I probably missed a few pokes. Amongst the ones you mentioned I'd only keep Rampardos and Glaceon. And the only gen one pokes I'd dump are lickitung and maybe Mr. Mine.

Primal Kyogre from my experience is great in doubles/triples since the perma rain removes fire and boosts water moves and gives perfect accuracy to thunder which is great for teammates like scizor, ferrothorn, manectric, etc.


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## Breadman (Feb 10, 2016)

Gen 5 was actually one of my favs. The only pokemon who I can think that have "crappy" designs are...

-Amoongus
-Vanillish
-Garbador

Those evolutionary lines. Apart from that though, what else is there to add? Not much, really... all others have solid designs, even if you don't like them that much, you can't deny that they aren't well designed.


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## scerpers (Feb 10, 2016)

nope. got to take the good with the bad, even if there is a _lot _of bad.


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