# Sandaime Raikage vs. Itachi



## StickaStick (Oct 3, 2014)

*Location*: Area where Naruto fought Sandaime Raikage
*Distance*: 25m
*Knowledge*: Full
*Mindset*: I.C.; To Kill

Genjustu is restricted.


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## JuicyG (Oct 3, 2014)

Why can't Itachi catch Tankage with Ama ?


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## Rocky (Oct 3, 2014)

Even if Amaterasu cannot hurt him, which is debatable in its own right, it can suffocate him.


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## JuicyG (Oct 3, 2014)

I dont see Ama not working on him though...I'm not sure where people get the notion that he can _'shake' _it off


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## Sabox (Oct 3, 2014)

raikage defeats him he is faster than itachi and amaterasu is weak as hell it couldnt burn sasuke 

so much for the sun temp


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## Alex Payne (Oct 3, 2014)

Yeah, Amaterasu-in-the-face should be potent enough to at least incapacitate Raikage if not outright kill him. Itachi would need to work for it though. But with Susano and bunshins he should be fine imo.


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## t0xeus (Oct 3, 2014)

Itachi's not gonna hit Sandaime Raikage with Amaterasu when he has full knowledge. 

On the other side, Sandaime can't blitz Itachi because with full knowledge, Itachi is gonna use ribcage Susanoo from the start.

The fight then just depends on if One-Finger Nukite can get through ribcage/V2/V3 Susanoo, if the answer is yes, then Sandaime stomps.

If the answer is no, then Raikage outlasts, since Itachi has no way of hurting him.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 3, 2014)

I just see a black fire sandaime running at Itachi.


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## ARGUS (Oct 3, 2014)

Most likely a draw, 

Itachi can burn the raikage with amatearasu, whhilst the third raikage can tearr through all of itachis susanoo with his hell stab and kill him, 
itachi dies by a nukite 
whilst the raiakge burns to death, 

iif genjutsu is unrestricted then itachi definitely wins this


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## LeBoyka (Oct 3, 2014)

Itachi seals with susanoo sword. (It's not restricted; i forget name.)

But Sandaime can also seal, theoretically, with the pot/jar thing... Ima go with Itachi, cus he actually sealed someone.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 3, 2014)

Itachi oneshots with Amaterasu. 

Refer to FRS vs Cerebrus / Amaterasu vs Cerebrus.


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## Legendary Itachi (Oct 3, 2014)

I don't see Sandaime carry a big pot in fighting, not like Itachi can't burn it with a Katon though, or throw away with Susanoo arm. 

BTW, Raikagernaut gets grabbed by Susanoo before he touches Itachi, clone feints will work as well.


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## Monster (Oct 3, 2014)

Itachi rapes.


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## Ghost (Oct 3, 2014)

Itachi can easily clone feint Sandaime and hit him in the face with Amaterasu.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 3, 2014)

Clone feint (Dodai basically did this for Naruto with his rubber ball Jutsu, and the Raikage took the bait for quite some time) + Amaterasu.

Itachi wins decisively, low-moderate difficulty.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 3, 2014)

If Kishi had a Naruto clone win with Rasengan, you better believe he'd have Itachi win with a genjutsu where he tricks the Raikage into stabbing himself, similar to how Itachi beat Deidara.

Maybe he'd have the Raikage endure Amaterasu for that _oh damn_ factor, but in the end, Itachi would use his intellect and use Raikage's ultimate sword to pierce the ultimate shield.​


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## Quikdraw7777 (Oct 3, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Clone feint (Dodai basically did this for Naruto with his rubber ball Jutsu, and the Raikage took the bait for quite some time) + Amaterasu.
> 
> Itachi wins decisively, *low-moderate difficulty*.




Eeeeeeeeeasy there, killa.

And you do realize that Sandaime Raikage was under the jurisdiction of Edo Tensei? He himself even stated that his body (and his fellow Kage's) were programmed to recognize jutsu and respond accordingly.

With knowledge, he'll know that there's no way in f!ck Itachi is outlasting him in a battle of attrition. He'll just throw a relentless Raiton Armor assault on the Uchiha - until Itachi's body can no longer withstand the strain of Susanoo's taxes.

The restriction of Genjutsu (Itachi's infamous sell-point) really cripples him here.


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## Turrin (Oct 3, 2014)

Sandaime can most likely evade Amaterasu. He may not be as fast as Ei, but you don't need to be to evade Amaterasu, he just needs to be fast enough to escape Itachi's view with Shunshin. Given that KCM-Naruto considered the guy fast and considering his reflexes are still in hyper-drive from RNY, he'd probably be able to do it. Also given that Hellbringer is significantly more potent than FRS, I think he probably be able to cut through Susano'o with it, or at least cut through Susano'os limbs to defend himself, and he has the necessary speed to react to it. Kurokaminari could also be a problem considering how potent it seems hyped to be, and than there is the Amber-Sealing-Jar which can end Itachi w/o knowledge of it.

Itachi's main avenue for victory against Sandaime would be a complex ploy Tsukuyomi or Izanami, but since that's restricted here, I see Sandaime-Raikage having a good shot of beating Itachi more often than not.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 3, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Sandaime can most likely evade Amaterasu. He may not be as fast as Ei, but you don't need to be to evade Amaterasu, he just needs to be fast enough to escape Itachi's view with Shunshin. Given that KCM-Naruto considered the guy fast and considering his reflexes are still in hyper-drive from RNY, he'd probably be able to do it. Also given that Hellbringer is significantly more potent than FRS, I think he probably be able to cut through Susano'o with it, or at least cut through Susano'os limbs to defend himself, and he has the necessary speed to react to it. Kurokaminari could also be a problem considering how potent it seems hyped to be, and than there is the Amber-Sealing-Jar which can end Itachi w/o knowledge of it.
> 
> Itachi's main avenue for victory against Sandaime would be a complex ploy Tsukuyomi or Izanami, but since that's restricted here, I see Sandaime-Raikage having a good shot of beating Itachi more often than not.



What a load of shit.


A managed to escape Sasuke's vision with V2. His regular speed was countered by Sasuke. 

As far as we know Sandaime doesn't have V2. Also Itachi is faster than Sasuke. 
Additionally,  there is absolutely 0 evidence that suggests Sandaime is fast enough to escape Itachi's vision. 

All conclusion leads us to believe that Itachi'd casually oneshot Sandaime with Amaterasu. I am not even sure why people keep mentioning clone feints. Itachi doesn't need a distraction, he is perfectly capable of dealing with Sandaime's speed. KCM Naruto was doing that without using his max speed.


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## Jagger (Oct 3, 2014)

The Red Dog Akainu said:


> raikage defeats him he is faster than itachi and amaterasu is weak as hell it couldnt burn sasuke
> 
> so much for the sun temp


Maybe Kishimoto was reffering to the Sun's surface, which its temperature is lower than lightning, yet, we've seen shinobi standing next to a Chidori/Raikiri without problem. After all, it seems the characters in Naruverse tend to be more physicalsly durable than in our real universe.

Also, Itachi did not aim at Sasuke, but his wings, to push Orochimaru out. Obito pointed that out while explaining the meaning behind Itachi's death and actions.


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## Trojan (Oct 3, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Sandaime can most likely evade Amaterasu. He may not be as fast as Ei, but you don't need to be to evade Amaterasu, he just needs to be fast enough to escape Itachi's view with Shunshin. Given that KCM-Naruto considered the guy fast and considering his reflexes are still in hyper-drive from RNY, he'd probably be able to do it. Also given that Hellbringer is significantly more potent than FRS, I think he probably be able to cut through Susano'o with it, or at least cut through Susano'os limbs to defend himself, and he has the necessary speed to react to it. Kurokaminari could also be a problem considering how potent it seems hyped to be, and than there is the Amber-Sealing-Jar which can end Itachi w/o knowledge of it.
> 
> Itachi's main avenue for victory against Sandaime would be a complex ploy Tsukuyomi or Izanami, but since that's restricted here, I see Sandaime-Raikage having a good shot of beating Itachi more often than not.



How is the Izanami going to work against him? 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> What a load of shit.
> 
> 
> A managed to escape Sasuke's vision with V2. His regular speed was countered by Sasuke.
> ...



How do you know that Itachi is faster than the Sasuke that faced A?
Also, it's true that A needed a higher level of the lightning armour, but Sasuke also needed a higher level than the Amatersu, and even then he failed, and only manage to burn A's arms because HE attacked him by his own will.  

Sasuke's level with Ninjutsu is higher than itachi's. 

******

OT: the 3rd win. 
He can outlast itachi, he has the superior speed and everything basically. 

black flame is countered with black lightning.


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## Turrin (Oct 3, 2014)

Hussain said:


> How is the Izanami going to work against him?


Raikage doesn't have many different moves, so I think Itachi at least has a chance to set up two similar points with Bushin, while relying on Susano'o and those same bushin to defend him. Obviously  it's risky though because if Sandaime accepts himself it will fail, but I could see Itachi winning this way with extremely high difficulty.


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## Van Konzen (Oct 3, 2014)

Itachi casts Amaterasu, hits Juggernaught, 
but Jugger gives no fuck of whatever this black shit of flame is and blitzes and stuck a finger in Itachi's ass while the king has his eyes being blurry with the after effects of casting MS..


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## imrunningoutacoconutoil (Oct 3, 2014)

Probably a tie, if Raikage's not Edoed.
@legendary itachi: LOL atyour sig. Where did you get that?


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## Trojan (Oct 3, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Raikage doesn't have many different moves, so I think Itachi at least has a chance to set up two similar points with Bushin, while relying on Susano'o and those same bushin to defend him. Obviously  it's risky though because if Sandaime accepts himself it will fail, but I could see Itachi winning this way with extremely high difficulty.



What I meant is the Raikage does not pretend to be someone else and deny reality...etc
so he would just escape the loop.


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## Jagger (Oct 3, 2014)

I'm pretty sure that can just give Itachi enough time to figure out how to kill him.

Regardles of whether Raikage accepts himself or not, he'll have to first realize he's inside a loop and break out of it. It doesn't happen instantaneously.


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## Kazekage94 (Oct 3, 2014)

3rd wins. 
Hebi Sasuke evaded Ama so with full knowledge the 3rd can.

The Raikage can take anything Itachi can dish out.
He is quicker as well.

He wins mid to high difficulty


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 3, 2014)

Hussain said:


> How do you know that Itachi is faster than the Sasuke that faced A?


manga.



> Also, it's true that A needed a higher level of the lightning armour, but Sasuke also needed a higher level than the Amatersu, and even then he failed, and only manage to burn A's arms because HE attacked him by his own will.


What ? 

A needed V2 to escape Sasuke's vision. Anything short of that would fail. I don't see how anything else you said is relevant.



> Sasuke's level with Ninjutsu is higher than itachi's.


Irrelevant.



> OT: the 3rd win.
> He can outlast itachi, he has the superior speed and everything basically.


Sasuke outmanuevered A and landed a hit on him. How is Sandaime's speed a problem here ?



> black flame is countered with black lightning.


Black lightning is countered by Yata. 
Troll harder. You've become a shadow of your former self.


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## JuicyG (Oct 3, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Most likely a draw,
> 
> Itachi can burn the raikage with amatearasu, whhilst the third raikage can tearr through all of itachis susanoo with his hell stab and kill him,
> itachi dies by a nukite
> ...



The answer is most likely the best one on thread



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi oneshots with Amaterasu.
> 
> Refer to FRS vs Cerebrus / Amaterasu vs Cerebrus.




I think Ama will kill the Raikage, but I doubt it is an immediate death. I still see Raikage hell stabbing the susano and killing Itachi in the process, then melting out afterwards.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 3, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> I think Ama will kill the Raikage, but I doubt it is an immediate death. I still see Raikage hell stabbing the susano and killing Itachi in the process, then melting out afterwards.



  No.


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## JuicyG (Oct 3, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No.




Annddd why not ? 

Wait, don't tell me.....Its because of the fanboy disease right ? Am I right ? I'm right aren't I...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 3, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Annddd why not ?
> 
> Wait, don't tell me.....Its because of the fanboy disease right ? Am I right ? I'm right aren't I...



I don't know.... The notion that Sandaime can stay composed enough to defeat Itachi while being burned down to nothing by Amaterasu sounded a bit ridiculous.  Especially when you consider the fact that he can't do it even when he isn't being vaporised by Amaterasu, unless you think Amaterasu makes him stronger or something


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## JuicyG (Oct 3, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't know.... The notion that Sandaime can stay composed enough to defeat Itachi while being burned down to nothing by Amaterasu sounded a bit ridiculous.  Especially when you consider the fact that he can't do it even when he isn't being vaporised by Amaterasu, unless you think Amaterasu makes him stronger or something




Lets take another look at A and sasuke's Ama shall we....

Except this time Sandaime is more durable. Its certainly not out of the realm of real possibilities


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 3, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Lets take another look at A and sasuke's Ama shall we....
> 
> Except this time Sandaime is more durable. Its certainly not out of the realm of real possibilities



Lets.

This time Sandaime isn't ignited by the tip of his hand but his whole upper body. This time his opponent isn't restricted to using just the weakest stage of Susano'o.

And I don't think Sandaime and A's durability are far off, if there is any difference.
Just after that chick hyped Sandaime for being able to tank light speed travel because of his durability, A did the same.


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## Trojan (Oct 3, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> manga.


would you be so kind, and put those scans? 


> What ?
> 
> A needed V2 to escape Sasuke's vision. Anything short of that would fail. I don't see how anything else you said is relevant.



No, Gaara's sand is slower than A, yet they were fast enough against the Amatersu. 
.




> Sasuke outmanuevered A and landed a hit on him. How is Sandaime's speed a problem here ?


mm, do you mean when he used the Chidori? 
and I don't see the problem with that honestly, hebi Sasuke burned itachi's hands as well. In addition, while Sasuke has a great move for that situation (Chidori) itachi does not, so I don't see how he can  benefit from what Sasuke did. As such, he (itachi) won't be able to do a thing here.



> Black lightning is countered by Yata.
> Troll harder. You've become a shadow of your former self



1- I was talking about the Amatersu, but either way, itachi's chakra is very small, he can only last so much using the Susanoo. It's a suicide move for alive itachi as we saw in the manga, so even if he protected himself with the Susanoo, he will eventually die shortly. 

2- just because I don't agree with you, that does not mean I'm trolling. But if that makes you feel good, then I suppose you can continue telling yourself that.


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## JuicyG (Oct 3, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Lets.
> 
> This time Sandaime isn't ignited by the tip of his hand but his whole upper body. This time his opponent isn't restricted to using just the weakest stage of Susano'o.



Why do we automatically give Itachi a perfect shot ? Is he not capable of coming short of his goals ?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> And I don't think Sandaime and A's durability are far off, if there is any difference.
> Just after that chick hyped Sandaime for being able to tank light speed travel because of his durability, A did the same.



Sandaime is more durable. That is exactly what he is known for if nothing else. Tanking KCM fuuton rasengans is a pretty good place to start looking. And the fact that his own hell stab was the only thing that ever pierced him.


The thing is that Sandiame's hell stab should break through even V4 Susano. Its manifested into a single particular point of attack. If Sandiame blitzes Itachi, the susano will go up and Ama will come out. So it ends as Raikage burns to death and Itachi catches a hell stab to the chest...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 3, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Why do we automatically give Itachi a perfect shot ?


When did he ever miss ? Why would he ever miss ? Also Amaterasu spreads pretty fast. You can check how fast Cerebrus was engulfed, or how fast that small tennis ball sized flame spread through Tobi's entire upperbody in just 1 panel.



> Is he not capable of coming short of his goals ?


Lol'd.

And Raikage trips and falls as he is about to land a hellstab. 



> Sandaime is more durable. That is exactly what he is known for if nothing else.


Thats not a proper argument.



> Tanking KCM fuuton rasengans is a pretty good place to start looking. And the fact that his own hell stab was the only thing that ever pierced him.


And Chidori could barely penetrate A's chest, an attack which is extremely similar to Nukite.



> The thing is that Sandiame's hell stab should break through even V4 Susano.


Based on ?



> If Sandiame blitzes Itachi,


Which he can't.



> the susano will go up and Ama will come out.


What the hell does this mean ? 



> So it ends as Raikage burns to death and Itachi catches a hell stab to the chest...



This is fanfiction. No basis or whatsoever.

There is no evidence that Raikage can stay composed when Amaterasu eats away his face.
There is no evidence that Raikage can penetrate V4 Susano'o, let alone Shield of Yata.


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## JuicyG (Oct 3, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> When did he ever miss ? Why would he ever miss ?



Sasuke didn't hit A's face, could Sandiame w/ full knowledge not put up his arm to block it ? 

Examples of Itachi coming short ( _This Is A Shout Out To Hussian_ )

1-he was supposed to be a spy for Konoha, what has he even done during those 10 years? *Nothing*. 
2- he supported the Akatsuki by making Deidara join them.
3- he told the Akatsuki about Konoha's team.
4- he told Sasuke to kill Naruto, and he is the one who made him a criminal as well.


And unless you think that Itachi's Susano has the same durability has the 8 tails, Sandiame Raikage can pierce it. Also Sandiame Raikage is not slow, he dodged the Fūton: Rasenshuriken twice, both times when Naruto was trying to sneak attack him. So I'm positive he should be able to blitz Itachi, which is why Itachi will immediately go for susano.



PS: This was my 1,000th post in NF ( Thanks everyone for this glorious moment )


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## Dr. White (Oct 3, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Sasuke didn't hit A's face, could Sandiame w/ full knowledge not put up his arm to block it ?
> 
> Examples of Itachi coming short ( _This Is A Shout Out To Hussian_ )
> 
> ...


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## Bonly (Oct 3, 2014)

To keep the answer short and sweet, Ama GG more or less. The Sandaime is gonna get hit and when it does he's gonna have to start chopping off  body parts(depending where Ama hits) otherwise he dies as the flames end up spreading all over his body blinding him and all that jazz.


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## Trojan (Oct 3, 2014)

> -False, him throwing his mission in Konoha saved Kakashi (who would obviously become important later), and saved Naruto from being captured.


آNever done such thing. He ordered Kisame to take kakashi, and Gai who was the one who saved him. He tried to take Naruto, and Jiraiya was the one who's protecting him all the time. Rather, itachi told Sasuke to kill Naruto to obtain the MS. 



> He also kept Tobi from attacking Konoha until his death. What happened immediately after Itachi's death? Pein got sent to Konoha.


and Kakuzu and Hidan went before that, and killed Asuma and the others. 
itachi himself game them info about Konoha's team, and he stood in their face, so the Akatsuki can get the Bijuu without any problem. 



> True, but you can't be an effective spy and not get your hands somewhat dirty, that's the whole thing about being a spy. But his accomplishments above, as well as him sitting out when his group fought Son goku, more than makes up for it.


you could say that had he ever given Konoha any info whatsoever, even the smallest info, but he gave them absolutly nothing. 

- Don't get Son Goku point.  



> Not really. His skin has been burnt by Amaterasu, and pierced by Minato's kunai. Hachibi is nowhere near as durable as Susano imo.



Minato's Kunai did not really hit him because of what B did though. @>@


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## Hachibi (Oct 3, 2014)

Look like this end in Amaterasu solo'ing, which is ironic considering it has been fodder for most of his apparance .


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## JuicyG (Oct 3, 2014)

I still dont agree with Sandiame lying down and dying from Ama without landing a critical hit on Itachi. This is full intel btw, but people tend to disregard that when Itachi is involved. A would have killed Sasuke, but a more durable verison couldnt do the same with Itachi, with knowledge.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 3, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> I still dont agree with Sandiame lying down and dying from Ama without landing a critical hit on Itachi. This is full intel btw, but people tend to disregard that when Itachi is involved. A would have killed Sasuke, but a more durable verison couldnt do the same with Itachi, with knowledge.



Itachi doesnt just have v1 Susano'o and the 3rd doesn't have v2 shunshin..


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 3, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Sasuke didn't hit A's face,


That doesn't mean Itachi'll do the same thing. I think the author usually avoids head shots because its too graphic and disturbing. But whatever, Sasuke hit A's chest, another vital area. Lets see what happenes within a couple of seconds of ignition : Link removed
Link removed

Link removed



> could Sandiame w/ full knowledge not put up his arm to block it ?


Highly doubt it. He doesn't have A's V2, which means he can't react to Amaterasu.

Even if he did, hypothetically, it wouldn't change much. Amaterasu'd spread through out his whole body within a couple of seconds or alternatively Itachi could hit him again. Just like how he hit the bird and Nagato, or two heads of cerebrus consecutively.



> Examples of Itachi coming short ( _This Is A Shout Out To Hussian_ )
> 
> 1-he was supposed to be a spy for Konoha, what has he even done during those 10 years? *Nothing*.


Kept Konoha standing. Obito sent Pain immediately to Konoha right after Itachi's death and admitted that the reason why he didn't touch Konoha was because of him. That alone is one of the greatest accomplishments anyone has ever done to protect Konoha.



> 2- he supported the Akatsuki by making Deidara join them.


Because if it wasn't for Deidara, it would be someone else. Or they'd find another way to get Deidara to join them. This argument is stupid.



> 3- he told the Akatsuki about Konoha's team.


He didn't. Actually, it is a very good example to show that Itachi wasn't willing to help Akatsuki. They asked him to give info about Naruto and he said "he is the one who'll scream and charge @ you." Which is basically nothing.



> 4- he told Sasuke to kill Naruto, and he is the one who made him a criminal as well.


No he didn't. He told Sasuke to kill his best friend. Sasuke & Naruto weren't best friends back then. Itachi also didn't force Sasuke to do anything. He just taught him the way to activate MS, which was the only option for Sasuke @ that point(considering he didn't have any family or close relatives left). There is nothing wrong with that.



> And unless you think that Itachi's Susano has the same durability has the 8 tails,


It is much more durable than Hachibee lol.



> Sandiame Raikage can pierce it.


Evidence ?



> Also Sandiame Raikage is not slow, he dodged the Fūton: Rasenshuriken twice, both times when Naruto was trying to sneak attack him.


So did Deva realm.



> So I'm positive he should be able to blitz Itachi,


Dodging FRS twice = blitzing Itachi ?

I am curious, how did you arrive to that conclusion ? Whats the correlation ?


Lets put fanfiction aside for a second. 

Here are some manga facts for you : 

Sandaime is as fast as A. 
Sasuke outmanuvered and landed a blow on A.
A wasn't able to blitz Sasuke till he switched to V2, which Sasuke was still able to react.
Itachi is faster than Sasuke.
Sandaime doesn't have V2 shroud.

Sandaime doesn't have the capability of blitzing Itachi.

Read the fucking manga. 



> which is why Itachi will immediately go for susano.


Itachi may choose to use Susano'o. Is that a bad thing for him or the Raikage ? Lol.


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## JuicyG (Oct 3, 2014)

@ Grimm

I will come back to this later today. I have some things I need to tend to first..

But LOL I'll be back...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 3, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> @ Grimm
> 
> I will come back to this later today. I have some things I need to tend to first..
> 
> But LOL I'll be back...



I wouldn't if I were you but sure be my guest, foolish little Juicy. 

But before you do, read the chapter where Itachi beat the shit out of Sasuke in the hotel in part 1. Maybe that can prepare you for whats gonna happen.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 3, 2014)

Quikdraw7777 said:


> Eeeeeeeeeasy there, killa.
> 
> And you do realize that Sandaime Raikage was under the jurisdiction of Edo Tensei? He himself even stated that his body (and his fellow Kage's) were programmed to recognize jutsu and respond accordingly.
> 
> ...



Edo Tensei or not, it's worth observing that the Raikage's casual speed is nothing Itachi can't handle (or misdirect); even the 3rd's best shown speed falls utterly short of what has been required to evade Amaterasu successfully in the past. Given the Raikage's limited moveset, linear attack patterns, and relatively predictable offense in general, Itachi shouldn't have much trouble getting into his blind spot to hit him with Amaterasu.



Turrin said:


> Sandaime can most likely evade Amaterasu. He may not be as fast as Ei, but you don't need to be to evade Amaterasu, he just needs to be fast enough to escape Itachi's view with Shunshin. Given that KCM-Naruto considered the guy fast and considering his reflexes are still in hyper-drive from RNY, he'd probably be able to do it. Also given that Hellbringer is significantly more potent than FRS, I think he probably be able to cut through Susano'o with it, or at least cut through Susano'os limbs to defend himself, and he has the necessary speed to react to it. Kurokaminari could also be a problem considering how potent it seems hyped to be, and than there is the Amber-Sealing-Jar which can end Itachi w/o knowledge of it.
> 
> Itachi's main avenue for victory against Sandaime would be a complex ploy Tsukuyomi or Izanami, but since that's restricted here, I see Sandaime-Raikage having a good shot of beating Itachi more often than not.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> What a load of shit.



^

Nothing suggests the 3rd is capable of dodging Amaterasu. And he certainly can't dodge it from a blind spot, which is an easy situation for Itachi to engineer at any point of his choosing.


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## Van Konzen (Oct 3, 2014)

What if I told you Third Raikage doesn't need to dodge Amaterasu coz he can tank it..


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## Nikushimi (Oct 3, 2014)

morpheus.jpg


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## Thunder (Oct 3, 2014)

The idea that Sandaime Raikage is going to run around and fight normally after being lit on fire by Amaterasu is laughable, in my opinion. 

Eventually the black flames overwhelm him.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 3, 2014)

What do you mean..."you people"?


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## Trojan (Oct 3, 2014)

Thunder said:


> The idea that Sandaime Raikage is going to run around and fight normally after being lit on fire by Amaterasu is laughable, in my opinion.
> 
> Eventually the black flames overwhelm him.



the idea that itachi will spam it is even more laughable though, especially with his chakra.


> *Edo Tensei or not, it's worth observing that the Raikage's casual speed is nothing Itachi can't handle *(or misdirect); even the 3rd's best shown speed falls utterly short of what has been required to evade Amaterasu successfully in the past. Given the Raikage's limited moveset, linear attack patterns, and relatively predictable offense in general, Itachi shouldn't have much trouble getting into his blind spot to hit him with Amaterasu.





*Spoiler*: __ 








Sorry, I felt like posting that.U_U
lol F Naruto, just amazing.


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## Thunder (Oct 3, 2014)

Hussain said:


> the idea that itachi will spam it is even more laughable though, especially with his chakra.



Why would Itachi have to "spam" Amaterasu? They have full knowledge here so Itachi is aware of the Sandaime Raikage's speed. 

Which means Itachi will work to get the Sandaime Raikage in a position where he's vulnerable before casting Amaterasu.


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## Trojan (Oct 3, 2014)

Thunder said:


> Why would Itachi have to "spam" Amaterasu? They have full knowledge here so Itachi is aware of the Sandaime Raikage's speed.
> 
> Which means Itachi will work to get the Sandaime Raikage in a position where he's vulnerable before casting Amaterasu.



- and the Raikage is also aware of itachi's Amatersu. Which means he can stay running and itachi can't do anything about it. 

- Such as?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Thunder (Oct 3, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - and the Raikage is also aware of itachi's Amatersu. Which means he can stay running and itachi can't do anything about it.



The Sandaime Raikage lacks sensing abilities and he doesn't possess Ē's top speed, it seems. So I don't see him dodging Itachi the entire match. 



> - Such as?


Kage Bunshin feints and distractions. Itachi is intelligent enough to set up a plan that would work.


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## Trojan (Oct 3, 2014)

Thunder said:


> The Sandaime Raikage lacks sensing abilities and he doesn't possess Ē's top speed, it seems. So I don't see him dodging Itachi the entire match.
> 
> Kage Bunshin feints and distractions. Itachi is intelligent enough to set up a plan that would work.



- Who said he needs a sensing ability?
Sasuke knew that itachi is going to use his Amatersu, and despite being slower than the 3rd, he was able to dodge the Amatersu for a long time, and it only got him because of his wing. 

- seriously now?
the 3rd fought 10,000 foe at the same time, and 1 clone will be able to accomplish that for itachi?

itachi was spying on the Akatsuki for 10 years, and he still couldn't come up with anything and did not know everything, what makes you think he will all of sudden do that? Especially with BZ's statement that itachi does not understand things very quickly and how much of a dense he is.


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## Ersa (Oct 3, 2014)

Itachi lights him up and smokes a cigarette inside Susanoo while the Sandaime burns to death. Either that or he dodges the Sandaime for days with Karasu clones and his own natural reflexes. The dude's got better reflexes then initial EMS Sasuke so tracking the Sandaime is not a fucking problem given MS Sasuke could track the faster V1 Ei.

And you have to be borderline stupid to think Kishimoto will write the real Itachi losing to someone who was more or less *Naruto's clone's *whipping boy.


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## Thunder (Oct 3, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - Who said he needs a sensing ability?
> Sasuke knew that itachi is going to use his Amatersu, and despite being slower than the 3rd, he was able to dodge the Amatersu for a long time, and it only got him because of his wing.



Itachi wasn't trying to kill Sasuke, there. 

And you need to stop running at some point if you're going to attack, right? Especially if your only attacks are taijutsu. There's black lighting but we don't know anything about the Sandaime's usage of it. 



> - seriously now?
> the 3rd fought 10,000 foe at the same time, and 1 clone will be able to accomplish that for itachi?


Madara fought the entire alliance. Does that mean he can't be taken off guard?



> itachi was spying on the Akatsuki for 10 years, and he still couldn't come up with anything and did not know everything, what makes you think he will all of sudden do that? Especially with BZ's statement that itachi does not understand things very quickly and how much of a dense he is.


Irrelevant. 

Itachi isn't trying to bring down a criminal organization from the inside here. He's not dealing with abilities that are all that strange. Itachi's facing one man and happens to knows everything about this man's fighting style.

Trickery is always employed by Itachi when he fights. He doesn't just come at you and swing. To deny this is to deny canon. Regardless of your personal views Itachi was noted to be intelligent by the author numerous times. This is expressed in the manga via character statements and in the databook via a five.

One negative statement in reference to a character does not negate every positive statement.


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## Jagger (Oct 3, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - seriously now?
> the 3rd fought 10,000 foe at the same time, and 1 clone will be able to accomplish that for itachi?
> 
> itachi was spying on the Akatsuki for 10 years, and he still couldn't come up with anything and did not know everything, what makes you think he will all of sudden do that? Especially with BZ's statement that itachi does not understand things very quickly and how much of a dense he is.


There's a significant difference between being quick-witted in battle and just failing when it comes to insight and planning for the long-run. 

Naruto is definitely not the best qualified leader out there, however, he can adapt to every situation pretty quickly, so you have an example of the difference between both. Itachi did understand how things were after he died and he even lectured Naruto out of being stubborn, so he's not THAT dense. However, those two situations can't be compared as one talks about morals, a ninja's way and duty, etc. and the other one is strategic planning in battles.


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## Ersa (Oct 3, 2014)

Wasn't the BZ statement indirect praise to Itachi's intelligence?


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## Trojan (Oct 3, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Wasn't the BZ statement indirect praise to Itachi's intelligence?



Not really, it's just Sasuke is denser than itachi. Like itachi for example is stupid, but sasuke is more.


If BZ said that Sasuke is less intelligent than itachi, then yeah sure, but it's not the case. It does however make itachi better than sasuke.


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## Ersa (Oct 4, 2014)

All that statement implies is that Itachi is smarter then Sasuke not that Itachi is stupid. I could say "Heh, you're dumber then Einstein," but that by no means implies Einstein is dumb. Everything else is subjective.

BZ also gave a lot of praise to Itachi during the Uchiha brothers fight, he seems to have a high opinion of him.


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## StickaStick (Oct 4, 2014)

Thunder said:


> Itachi wasn't trying to kill Sasuke, there.


Correct, he was trying to hit Sasuke's wing. However, Sasuke made it difficult for Itachi by Shunshin'ing away. If Hebi Sasuke could evade Ama even momentarily, then you can bet the house that Sandaime would be able to as well. Chances are Itachi would probably be forced to pre-empt Sandaime and cast the black flames in a spot he suspects Sandaime will move; a task made easier with Sharingan precog of course, but not a given. 

Honestly Sandaime could possibly outlast by playing his cards perfectly and being aware at all times of Itachi's clone game and the threat of Ama + Totsuka strikes. I don't even view this as an impossible task given the stamina and endurance edge that Sandaime holds over Itachi. And at the same time Sandaime could pick his spots and force Itachi into using chakra intensive abilities (e.g., Susanoo to defend himself), making a war of attrition more probable.


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## Trojan (Oct 4, 2014)

I disagree. U_U

if you want to make such comparison, both parties should have the same thing for it to make sense. Unless you're being sarcastic, which Zetsu was not. If you want to call someone dumb, and compare him to another one, that one who's being compared to should be dumb at some level because the purpose is to put the first one down/insult him.


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## Icegaze (Oct 4, 2014)

I agree with the format here best post so far 
The rest are mostly weak 

Knowledge is full this is how I believe it plays out 

itachi molds chakra for AMA
Raikage pressures itachi clone feints 
has enough for a little Amaterasu and catches Raikage 
Who uses black lightning on itachi . Itachi susanoo to defend himself 
By then Raikage is engluffed but not down he tries a last ditch effort and itachi uses v4 susanoo and clashes with him
Raikage is defeated. 

however if for example by using black lightning which is a full body lighting release tech if that could get rid of Amaterasu 
Raikage would win 11/10


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## Thunder (Oct 4, 2014)

The Format said:


> Correct, he was trying to hit Sasuke's wing. However, Sasuke made it  difficult for Itachi by Shunshin'ing away. If Hebi Sasuke could evade  Ama even momentarily, then you can bet the house that Sandaime would be  able to as well. Chances are Itachi would probably be forced to pre-empt  Sandaime and cast the black flames in a spot he suspects Sandaime will  move; a task made easier with Sharingan precog of course, but not a  given.



I'm not arguing the Sandaime Raikage will eat an Amaterasu to face at match start or something if was your impression. 

Like I mentioned to Hussein in the part of my post you clipped off, the Sandaime Raikage is not going to win by simply employing Shunshin and being defensive. He's got to engage Itachi at some point. And the Sandaime Raikage is more vulnerable in such a scenario.

It's possible the Sandaime Raikage fights a perfect match here, getting off all his best moves while evading all of Itachi's best moves. But not likely.


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## trance (Oct 4, 2014)

> Distance: 25m
> Knowledge: Full
> Mindset: I.C.; To Kill



It's like you want Itachi to win? 

Raikagenaut moves in. Itachi clone feints and ends it with either Totsuka or Amaterasu to the face. Full knowledge benefits Itachi much more than Raikagenaut


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## Nikushimi (Oct 4, 2014)

...So would now be a bad time to point out that the 3rd Raikage couldn't dodge a fucking Rasengan from Sage Naruto?

Like HELL is he dodging Amaterasu.


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## Hachibi (Oct 4, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> ...So would now be a bad time to point out that the 3rd Raikage couldn't dodge a fucking Rasengan from Sage Naruto?
> 
> Like HELL is he dodging Amaterasu.



He was in the air at the time tho.

But yeah, he isn't gonna dodge Amat form a Itachi that isn't holding back.


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## Trojan (Oct 4, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> ...So would now be a bad time to point out that the 3rd Raikage couldn't dodge a fucking Rasengan from Sage Naruto?
> 
> Like HELL is he dodging Amaterasu.



No, it will be good time to point out that Kabuto was the one who's controlling him, and he did not
expect the child's plan to be that. 

itachi couldn't even dodge Kabuto's fingers like HELL is he dodging the 3rd's finger.


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## Hachibi (Oct 4, 2014)

Hussain said:


> No, it will be good time to point out that Kabuto was the one who's controlling him, and he did not
> expect the child's plan to be that.
> 
> *itachi couldn't even dodge Kabuto's fingers *like HELL is he dodging the 3rd's finger.


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## Trojan (Oct 4, 2014)

ok?
you know I'm talking about this, right?


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## Hachibi (Oct 4, 2014)

Hussain said:


> ok?
> you know I'm talking about this, right?



I know, and it was a surprise attack.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Oct 4, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> ...So would now be a bad time to point out that the 3rd Raikage couldn't dodge a fucking Rasengan from Sage Naruto?
> 
> Like HELL is he dodging Amaterasu.




So would NOW be a bad time to wonder whether or not Amaterasu can incapacitate Sandaime Raikage before he exhausts Itachi defenses?

I mean, it could barely burn through Karin's clothing & Samurai Armor......two subjects that are *FAR*  from his level of durability...

Facts.


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## Bonly (Oct 4, 2014)

Quikdraw7777 said:


> So would NOW be a bad time to wonder whether or not Amaterasu can incapacitate Sandaime Raikage before he exhausts Itachi defenses?
> 
> I mean, it could barely burn through Karin's clothing & Samurai Armor......two subjects that are *FAR*  from his level of durability...
> 
> Facts.



What you mean to say is that Sasuke using Ama could barely do that. After Itachi hit Sasuke with Ama Sasuke had half his body(or the husk behind more so) was burnt away. When Itachi used Ama on Jiraiya's Gamaguchi Shibari he burnt a hole in it. 

Not only that but the flames can spread really fast. When Edo Itachi used Ama on Nagato's dog it hit the dog on two heads then we see the flames are huge and start spreading to it's under belly two panels later. When Edo Itachi used Ama on Nagato and his bird we see the a small part of the bird's beak is hit yet in the next panel it seems like the entire top of it's head going to it's back is in flames. We also see Itachi use a small burst of Ama on Sasuke's Katon and then the flames spread extremely fast in the next panel. If the Sandaime is hit he runs the risk of it spreading to the point where he won't be able to see and since he's not a sensor he won't be able to find Itachi which means he likely won't "exhausts Itachi defenses". 

If you wanna list facts about Ama then fine but lets not only look at the bad showings of it when Sasuke uses Ama only. Lets also take a look at Itachi using Ama himself and see how Ama can have good showings as well.


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## Almondsand (Oct 5, 2014)

Heh... It really seems I'm not needed here to detail how this battle will go. Itachi wins low difficulty without genjutsu. 

Anyway theres things that needs to be addressed when people discuss Itachi in the battledome and try to nerf his capabilities without using context of the manga:

1) Itachi feats that involve Sasuke and Konoha ninja should always first be noted that Itachi was handicapped and not serious in the slightest in any fights involving Konoha Ninja, he's always nerfed his abilities enough for them. This include Orochimaru, Sasuke, Kakashi, Guy, Asuma, Naruto, Kurenai, Obito.. All lived when he could had killed them easily at any moment. 

2) Itachi feats with Amatarasu should always take precedence over Sasuke's feats(which are all failures/nerfed). Itachi has shown better skill with Amaterasu, even without shape manipulation, he managed to kill and hit, as well as deal greater damage than Sasuke has ever shown. Reason Itachi success rate with Amaterasu is better is because he is a much better strategist and doesn't show his next move before his opponent is already harmed by it.

3) Genjutsu is OP for a reason, that is why it is limited in the manga itself. People need to get the notion out of their head that all ninja past the genin level can counter genjutsu, especially from Itachi. Why do you think Itachi was removed from the manga? No other character has shown as much versatility and 100% success rate like he has with illusion techniques, and not be serious. Itachi is the only prominent character that is genjustsu oriented and smart enough to make strategies based around all of his techniques. Kishimoto knew the only way to kill the guy off was by AIDS or some other lame excuse, because he didn't have a character especially his main characters with competing qualities like Itachi.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 5, 2014)

^Read the OP. Genjutsu is restricted. And Itachi couldn't ever kill Obito 'easily' at any point in the Manga. If that was the case, why didn't he just do that? At any rate, Itachi should win. Amaterasu would end up covering the Third Raikage's entire body within a couple of seconds after hitting him, even spreading onto his face and simultaneously blinding him and making him run around like a maniac, unable to see where he's going or where his opponent is.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Oct 5, 2014)

How are you guys claiming that Itachi can strike him so easily with Amaterasu?



Naruto even notes that the 3rd Raikage was just as fast as his son. We've seen how successful Sasuke was in hitting him with the jutsu offensively. Hell, we've seen SASUKE himself dodged Itachi's Amaterasu for a good while - and he was not nearly as fast as this man. 


Itachi is going to require Susanoo at all times to prevent himself from getting torn apart by the Sandaime's Hellstab Hand. All the Raikage has to do is zip around him wildly to ensure he keeps Susanoo active, and thus, exhaust all of his chakra.

That's why I said it's just a "battle of attrition". The 3rd Raikage probably is aware that no one else has anything close to the amount of stamina he showcases, so if he can't oneshot you he'll just wear you out to the point that you're too exhausted to fight anymore.

Again, Itachi is being severely handicapped here. The OP knows that Itachi can use genjutsu to manipulate the Raikage into stabbing himself, so he restricted it - which makes this battle far more complicated.


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## Sabox (Oct 5, 2014)

true man lolamaterasu isnt  going to catch him


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## Turrin (Oct 5, 2014)

Thunder said:


> I'm not arguing the Sandaime Raikage will eat an Amaterasu to face at match start or something if was your impression.
> 
> Like I mentioned to Hussein in the part of my post you clipped off, the Sandaime Raikage is not going to win by simply employing Shunshin and being defensive. He's got to engage Itachi at some point. And the Sandaime Raikage is more vulnerable in such a scenario.
> 
> It's possible the Sandaime Raikage fights a perfect match here, getting off all his best moves while evading all of Itachi's best moves. But not likely.


Thunder i'm not sure why you don't think Sandaime-Raikage can evade Amaterasu consistently. Evading Amaterasu just comes down to moving outside of the users field of view when they goto cast it. In-order to do this you need to react the indicators that Amaterasu is coming. Sandaime's reflexes might not be at Ei's level but they were good enough that KCM-Naruto compared him to Ei. So they should be more than sufficient to see Itachi's eye is bleeding (or straining, or simply evolving into MS) and use Shunshin to escape Itachi's field of view. This means the most important factor is knowledge. Does Sandaime know about Amaterasu or even MS; we don't know the answer to that, however we do know the black-flames were employed back in Tobirama's time as he was familiar with not just them, but Enton as well, so it's certainly possible he's aware of the MS and the jutsu, depending on his age as well as how much he intel he had gathered in his role as Raikage about the Leaf Village. 

In this regard the question of whether Sandaime knows about Amaterasu (or MS) is not much different than whether Itachi knows about the Amber-Sealing Jar or the offensive output of Hell-Bringer. If Itachi is aware of these Jutsu he will take the necessary precautions to evade or bring out his strongest defenses to defend, however if he's not than he's liable to be caught by the Jar or choose the wrong avenue for defense against Hell-Bringer; such as bringing out Stage 1 Susano'o to defend only for Hellbringer to plow right through killing him. He's also liable to attempt and attack he believes will kill Sandaime, only for the attack to glance off him, and give Sandaime the initiative to attack him in CQC with Hell-Bringer killing him; basically the same thing that happened with Sasuke vs Ei, where Ei got the opening to power-bomb him, but Hell-Bringer being a one-shot makes this a fatal mistake for Itachi.

The only difference is that Itachi is more likely to go down to Hellbringer or Amber-Sealing Jar, than Sandaime is to Amaterasu, in a no knowledge scenario, because Sandaime is more willing to use these techniques, than Itachi is, as they don't come at a high cost to his person, while Amaterasu is not only demanding chakra wise on Itachi, but causes perminent damage to his person. That's why Itachi only brings Amaterasu out later in the fight, while always going for Basic Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, & Genjutsu first. Sandaime on the other hand brings out Hell-Bringer casually and has no reason to hold back on utilizing the Amber-Sealing Jar as well, due to his massive endurance completely mitigating the strain.

In this battle knowledge is key to victory, but due to the restrictions placed on Itachi, Sandaime has more options to one-shot in a no knowledge scenario, and will bring out his one-shot options much quicker. While in a full knowledge scenario itachi doesn't have much options for taking down the Sandaime-Raikage, and Sandaime wins out in an attrition war. This is not to mention that Amaterasu itself is not likely to be a oneshot on Sandaime unless it hits him perfectly; yes he'll go down eventually unless Sandaime removes that part of his body, but until that happens Itachi has a giant flame golem going all out to kill him, before he dies himself.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 5, 2014)

Quikdraw7777 said:


> How are you guys claiming that Itachi can strike him so easily with Amaterasu?
> .



Prove that Sandaime has the reactions or the speed to evade Amaterasu.
Protip : You can't.


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## Bonly (Oct 5, 2014)

Quikdraw7777 said:


> How are you guys claiming that Itachi can strike him so easily with Amaterasu?



I don't think most people believe he'll easily do it, most just believe that he can do it eventually. 



> Naruto even notes that the 3rd Raikage was just as fast as his son.



Actually Naruto only noted that the Raikages are fast but he didn't note that the Sandaime was as fast as A exactly. You can actually see Naruto thinking of A in V1(not in V2) when he made the comment in said panel and V1 speed isn't be to much of a problem for Itachi.



> We've seen how successful Sasuke was in hitting him with the jutsu offensively.



The only jutsu Sasuke managed to hit Itachi with was a Katon Dargon(same one he used to prep Kirin) after Itachi drained alot of chakra before hand, Kirin(which he used Susanoo to defend from), and the shadow shuriken which Itachi didn't use Susanoo to protect himself.  With multiple fails and a few successes(all of which were or arguably could have been defended from had Itachi wanted to), I don't think that says to much.



> Itachi is going to require Susanoo at all times to prevent himself from getting torn apart by the Sandaime's Hellstab Hand. All the Raikage has to do is zip around him wildly to ensure he keeps Susanoo active, and thus, exhaust all of his chakra.



Jugo was able to put up a guard when A was inches from him(though he still got a big hole in his chest). We've seen that Saw with the Sharingan Sasuke was able to dodge A's elbow at the last second and land a blow. The Sandaime hasn't been shown to be as fast as V2 A nor has he gotten the hype to be as fast as V2 A and V1 speed isn't enough to force Itachi to use Susanoo constantly. 



> That's why I said it's just a "battle of attrition". The 3rd Raikage probably is aware that no one else has anything close to the amount of stamina he showcases, so if he can't oneshot you he'll just wear you out to the point that you're too exhausted to fight anymore.



Sure if this was purely about a battle of attrition you'd have a point, sadly Ama can mess that up for the Sandaime.



> Again, Itachi is being severely handicapped here. The OP knows that Itachi can use genjutsu to manipulate the Raikage into stabbing himself, so he restricted it - which makes this battle far more complicated.



I agree Genjutsu would make things a bit easier but more complicated or not Itachi still has the tools to land the final blow.


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## Ashi (Oct 5, 2014)

Dodging two KCM Rasenshurikens amounts to dodging to Amaterasu 


That being said I don't see Itachi winning this one


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## Quikdraw7777 (Oct 5, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Prove that Sandaime has the reactions or the speed to evade Amaterasu.
> Protip : You can't.




○ Hebi Sasuke was evading Itachi's flames to the point that Itachi nearly destroyed his own eye by the time he was able to hit him.

○ Raiton Armor reflexes > Hebi Sasuke.


Thanks for playing Grimm.
Come back anytime.



There is nothing else in Itachi's arsenal for 3rd Raikage to even consider paying attention to.
He has two options:

1) Get torn open like a bag of chips at a party by Hellstab Hand

2) Use Amaterasu & Susanoo to the point that his eye is mush and his body can't even stand on its own accord.

Either way, it's good night Mr. Uchiha.


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## Turrin (Oct 5, 2014)

Bonly said:


> The only jutsu Sasuke managed to hit Itachi with was a Katon Dargon(same one he used to prep Kirin) after Itachi drained alot of chakra before hand, Kirin(which he used Susanoo to defend from), and the shadow shuriken which Itachi didn't use Susanoo to protect himself.  With multiple fails and a few successes(all of which were or arguably could have been defended from had Itachi wanted to), I don't think that says to much.


I think its important to note that Ei's elbow came inches away from Sasuke's face, and with the extra length that Nukite grants Sandaime, Sasuke would have had his brain pierced. Same thing with Juugo where he'd not just have dent in his chest, but he'd have been stabbed through the heart. Ei and Sandaime might be similar speeds, but the lethality of Sandaime's attack makes it more difficult to evade or defend against. Itachi can probably react in time to put his guard up, but what good does that do, when Hell-Bringer would go right through his guard killing him, and the extra range of Hell-Bringer will force Itachi to evade by much greater distances than the hairs breath Sasuke evade in. I don't see Itachi being able to defend with anything short of higher end Susano'o (and even that's not a sure thing against an attack much more powerful than FRS); and bushin are I suppose good for one hit

Edit: It's all fine and dandy to say Sandaime gets done in by Amaterasu, but Itachi needs to survive in the time leading up to when he decides to use Ama, the time it takes to land Ama, and most likely a good bit of time after landing Ama, due to the fact that Sandaime is unlikely to go down right away. This is a tall order against someone who possess Sandaime's speed and an attack Itachi can't defend against outside maybe S4-Susano'o (and that's a big fucking maybe). Than there is also Amber-Sealing-Jar which is near impossible to deal w/ w/o knowledge and Kurokaminari.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 5, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> He was in the air at the time tho.
> 
> But yeah, he isn't gonna dodge Amat form a Itachi that isn't holding back.



Simple solution: Itachi waits until the Raikage is airborne/in a position where he can't easily dodge.



Hussain said:


> No, it will be good time to point out that Kabuto was the one who's controlling him, and he did not
> expect the child's plan to be that.



Kabuto was controlling him when he dodged the FRS and did everything else, too.

So if you're gonna play that angle, then the 3rd has no feats we can use anyway.



> itachi couldn't even dodge Kabuto's fingers like HELL is he dodging the 3rd's finger.



The 3rd Raikage doesn't have a giant snake to ambush Itachi from, so he can't replicate that feat.



Quikdraw7777 said:


> So would NOW be a bad time to wonder whether or not Amaterasu can incapacitate Sandaime Raikage before he exhausts Itachi defenses?
> 
> I mean, it could barely burn through Karin's clothing & Samurai Armor......two subjects that are *FAR*  from his level of durability...
> 
> Facts.



Durability means dick-all when he's on _fire_.

And don't give me those weak-ass arguments about Karin's cloak and the samurai armor; we both know Kishi hasn't exactly been consistent with Amaterasu's burn rate.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 5, 2014)

Ei's arm was barely affected by Sasuke's Amaterasu, dude's hand brace wasn't even partially damaged from the flames after he cut his arm off several panels later. He didn't display an ounce of pain or distraction when he went to split him in half with his drop kick after his arm was ignited. 

Amaterasu is not faster than FRS, and the 3rd Raikage dodged it in base (entered V1 after noticing it thrown) with sun glare blocking his vision. He then dodged it a second time in mid-air, and then showed that he knew the third throw was coming from Naruto, but simply could no longer evade it from that close of a distance.

Aside from being able to dodge it outright, his body is largely the most durable individual specimen known to man. Ei's arm took virtually no damage from Amaterasu, it literally just hung on top of his Raiton Cloak. 

Itachi may be able to hit him in the face with it via a bunshin feint, but this is Sick Itachi, not Healthy Itachi. He, and his clones, are slower than Sasuke's CS2 Katons, they're ripped through with relative ease. 

The notion that he cannot dodge it, and the notion that he can't otherwise simply ignore the flames as they do nothing but hang on top of his Raiton cloak is absurd.

This dude could literally shunshin away from him and maintain a 300m distance at all times, until Itachi drops of exhaustion. Not chakra exhaustion, physical exhaustion. The 3rd Raikage can fight at near-peak capacity for 72 hours against an army of 10,000 ninja. Sick Itachi would need a nap after 2 hours of an extended conflict, and he wouldn't even have had to utilize any of his chakra- his physical deficiencies from illness would warrant a rest after having 3-toma Sharingan activated for more than an hour. This dude literally hasn't fought for more than 10 minutes at any point in the manga other than when he was 13, healthy, with brand new MS eyes. Forget the chakra exhaustion, his physical stamina is atrocious. He will not be able to stay on his feet vigilant for more than a couple hours with that level of an illness. 

The only question is whether or not the 3rd Raikage is intelligent enough to exploit this advantage by staying away.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Oct 5, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Simple solution: Itachi waits until the Raikage is airborne/in a position where he can't easily dodge.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So by this logic, any Katon user could've done the guy in at any point in his life.

Some of you guys really underestimate the point Kishi was trying to drive home with this man's Durability:


○ His body could withstand the force of being transported to a location at the *speed of light*.

○ He was able to fight, (and receive blows from) a Bijuu without acquiring a single scratch.

○ It was revealed that the only scar he DID receieve came from one of his OWN techniques.


There are only a few things in the verse that could probably kill him instantly. Jinton is obviously one of those techniques that do the job - becuase it destroys at the *molecular*  level. Amaterasu is not. When you look at the idea that his son (Ei) had an arm engulfed in these flames and didn't even so much as flinch, speaks volumes on just how tough these guys are.

While Amaterasu can burn through anything, it does NOT ignore the toughness of said materials. This is what effects the rate at which the target is consumed. That's where plenty of people are getting off track with this jutsu.

Even if he's hit (which is a feat all by itself), it's going to take a bit of time before it becomes a detriment to Sandaime Raikage's fighting capabilites, as I'm sure his toughness is above that of his son.

Itachi on the other hand, isn't going to hit the Raikage on the first attempt if the latter is already made privy to the fact that he must dodge it at all costs. The more he uses it, the less chakra he has on the defensive front with Susano'o.


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## Sabox (Oct 5, 2014)

stop it man uchiha fans will always bring fanfics in their thread and other BS just so their fav can win


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## Sabox (Oct 5, 2014)

The Red Dog Akainu said:


> stop it man uchiha fans will always bring fanfics in their thread and other BS just so their fav can win



i mean some of them not all


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## Quikdraw7777 (Oct 5, 2014)

The Red Dog Akainu said:


> i mean some of them not all





Hahaha perhaps.
I actually like Itachi myself, but this is cray cray.



And did you actually just quote and respond to yourself?


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## Trojan (Oct 5, 2014)

> =Nikushimi;51899909]
> Kabuto was controlling him when he dodged the FRS and did everything else, too.
> So if you're gonna play that angle, then the 3rd has no feats we can use anyway.



That's cool and all, except he can't replace the 3rd mind.



> The 3rd Raikage doesn't have a giant snake to ambush Itachi from, so he can't replicate that feat.


He does not need to, as the unlike Kabuto, the 3rd won't be cut in half from the Susanoo's sword. 


> Durability means dick-all when he's on _fire_.
> 
> And don't give me those weak-ass arguments about Karin's cloak and the samurai armor; we both know Kishi hasn't exactly been consistent with Amaterasu's burn rate.


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## StickaStick (Oct 5, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> 1) Itachi feats that involve Sasuke and Konoha ninja should always first be noted that Itachi was handicapped and not serious in the slightest in any fights involving Konoha Ninja, he's always nerfed his abilities enough for them. This include Orochimaru, Sasuke, Kakashi, Guy, Asuma, Naruto, Kurenai, Obito.. All lived when he could had killed them easily at any moment.


Which is why Itachi had to use round-about tactics in order to try to kill Obito 

In reality both were probably weary of the other's abilities and had little incentive to directly engage the other.



> 2) Itachi feats with Amatarasu should always take precedence over Sasuke's feats(which are all failures/nerfed). Itachi has shown better skill with Amaterasu, even without shape manipulation, he managed to kill and hit, as well as deal greater damage than Sasuke has ever shown. Reason Itachi success rate with Amaterasu is better is because he is a much better strategist and doesn't show his next move before his opponent is already harmed by it.


Nope, Sasuke is clearly the more skilled individual with Ama, as evidenced by his ability to outright manipulate the black flames with Enton Kagutsuchi. The difference in the showings between them ultimately can be summed up as Sasuke's Ama uses have been in more precarious situations; situations where Itachi would have failed as well.



> 3) Genjutsu is OP for a reason, that is why it is limited in the manga itself. People need to get the notion out of their head that all ninja past the genin level can counter genjutsu, especially from Itachi. Why do you think Itachi was removed from the manga? No other character has shown as much versatility and 100% success rate like he has with illusion techniques, and not be serious. Itachi is the only prominent character that is genjustsu oriented and smart enough to make strategies based around all of his techniques. Kishimoto knew the only way to kill the guy off was by AIDS or some other lame excuse, because he didn't have a character especially his main characters with competing qualities like Itachi.


Hebi Sasuke broke out/avoiding being hit by Itachi's strongest genjutsu (barring the situational Izanami) Tsukuyomi, so no Itachi's genjutsu is not the be-all end-all that you're making it out to be.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 5, 2014)

The Red Dog Akainu said:


> stop it man uchiha fans will always bring fanfics in their thread and other BS just so their fav can win





The Red Dog Akainu said:


> i mean some of them not all





Quikdraw7777 said:


> And did you actually just quote and respond to yourself?






This cracked me up.



Quikdraw7777 said:


> ○ Hebi Sasuke was evading Itachi's flames to the point that Itachi nearly destroyed his own eye by the time he was able to hit him.


When did that happen ?




> ○ Raiton Armor reflexes > Hebi Sasuke.


Its not actually, Sasuke without CS boost was able to outmanuver A and land a hit on him. Which means with sharingan precog Sasuke's reactions are effectively faster than A. Adding up CS boost would just increase the difference.
But thats for another discussion.


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## Thunder (Oct 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Thunder i'm not sure why you don't think Sandaime-Raikage can evade Amaterasu consistently. Evading Amaterasu just comes down to moving outside of the users field of view when they goto cast it. In-order to do this you need to react the indicators that Amaterasu is coming. Sandaime's reflexes might not be at Ei's level but they were good enough that KCM-Naruto compared him to Ei. So they should be more than sufficient to see Itachi's eye is bleeding (or straining, or simply evolving into MS) and use Shunshin to escape Itachi's field of view. This means the most important factor is knowledge.



Evading Amaterasu is not going to be a simple task for Sandaime because even Ē ? who was compared to Sandaime ? needed Raiton no Yoroi "V2" in order to successfully avoid the flames. A level of speed not achievable by Sandaime (you'd think something like that would've been directly mentioned) thus it's far more likely to me Naruto was talking about their normal "V1" speed there.

So unless you can convince me otherwise I'm just not seeing how Itachi would fail to land _one_ Amaterasu with some intelligent planning. When it comes to giving characters the benefit of the doubt I tend to look at portrayal and Itachi has been portrayed better than Sandaime in my view. Genjutsu is large part of Itachi's portrayal but so is the Mangekyō Sharingan. After all, it was Amaterasu and Susanō  which Itachi used to fight Nagato. 

Oh, the knowledge is full Turrin. So Sandaime knows about Amaterasu. Not sure which version of Itachi this is, though, since the OP didn't specify. If this _is_ indeed sick Itachi your scenario has more validity.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 5, 2014)

Quikdraw7777 said:


> So by this logic, any Katon user could've done the guy in at any point in his life.



Nah, the Raiton armor will offer some protection.

But he is not immune to heat, and Amaterasu will stay lit on his body instead of just dissipating like a normal Katon. It will eventually eat through his Raiton armor and then take to his flesh.



> Some of you guys really underestimate the point Kishi was trying to drive home with this man's Durability:
> 
> 
> ○ His body could withstand the force of being transported to a location at the *speed of light*.
> ...



Wait, why does Jinton get a free pass simply because of the "level" at which it attacks the body? Would not the Raikage's "molecules," that constitute his incredibly resilient body, have to be durable themselves in order to keep from ripping apart under exposure to trauma? For that matter, fire doesn't burn at a molecular level? Fire consumes oxygen. 



> When you look at the idea that his son (Ei) had an arm engulfed in these flames and didn't even so much as flinch, speaks volumes on just how tough these guys are.



He cut that arm off himself precisely because of Amaterasu...



> While Amaterasu can burn through anything, it does NOT ignore the toughness of said materials. This is what effects the rate at which the target is consumed. That's where plenty of people are getting off track with this jutsu.



The burn rate is plot-decided. I'm just gonna say that up-front, because it is.

But that's not really the issue; the issue is whether or not it can kill the 3rd, and for lack of explicit proof...we do have reason to believe so.



> Even if he's hit (which is a feat all by itself),



Sage Naruto pulled it off with a Rasengan. 



> it's going to take a bit of time before it becomes a detriment to Sandaime Raikage's fighting capabilites, as I'm sure his toughness is above that of his son.



This won't necessarily impede the progress of the flames, however. Or keep them from blinding and asphyxiating the Raikage.



> Itachi on the other hand, isn't going to hit the Raikage on the first attempt if the latter is already made privy to the fact that he must dodge it at all costs. The more he uses it, the less chakra he has on the defensive front with Susano'o.



Itachi can use a clone feint to distract the Raikage, and then hitting him with Amaterasu shouldn't be a problem.

Although I don't see any reason to believe the 3rd is fast enough to dodge Amaterasu in the first place, or why Itachi couldn't simply light him up directly.


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## Turrin (Oct 5, 2014)

Thunder said:


> Evading Amaterasu is not going to be a simple task for Sandaime because even Ē ? who was compared to Sandaime ? needed Raiton no Yoroi "V2" in order to successfully avoid the flames. .


Ei went Max-Speed to deal with MS in general. Which was not just evading Amaterasu, but blitzing Sasuke and breaking through Susano'o. Nothing says he needed exactly Max-speed to evade a straight forward Amaterasu shot.



> thus it's far more likely to me Naruto was talking about their normal "V1" speed there.


I agree he was talking about Ei's typical RNY speed, rather than the max-speed Ei is capable of with Shunshin. But Sandaime was also not using Shunshin when that comparison was made. So if Sandaime roughly equals Ei w/o Shunshin, he's probably not terribly far off from Ei's max-speed with his own Shunshin.



> So unless you can convince me otherwise I'm just not seeing how Itachi would fail to land one Amaterasu with some intelligent planning. When it comes to giving characters the benefit of the doubt I tend to look at portrayal and Itachi has been portrayed better than Sandaime in my view. Genjutsu is large part of Itachi's portrayal but so is the Mangekyō Sharingan. After all, it was Amaterasu and Susanō which Itachi used to fight Nagato.


When it comes to portrayal Sandaime fought Hachibi to a draw, and seemingly did it w/o the Amber-Sealing-Jar, and partly due to Hachibi getting lucky that Sandaime literally fell on his own sword. I don't see Itachi being that far above someone capable of beating or even drawing with the second strongest Bijuu. Or we can also look at Sandaime-Raikage taking on 10,000 Shinobi for 3-days and 3 nights, something which is again at least in Itachi's league. He's also the strongest Raikage, and has a number of amazing abilities. So I don't think portrayal places Itachi higher than Sandaime-Raikage or at least not that much higher, and that's Itachi w/o being heavily restricted as he is here.



> Oh, the knowledge is full Turrin. So Sandaime knows about Amaterasu. Not sure which version of Itachi this is, though, since the OP didn't specify. If this is indeed sick Itachi your scenario has more validity.


Than I really struggle to see Sandaime-Raikage getting hit easily by it.


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## Thunder (Oct 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Ei went Max-Speed to deal with MS in general.  Which was not just evading Amaterasu, but blitzing Sasuke and breaking  through Susano'o. Nothing says he needed exactly Max-speed to evade a  straight forward Amaterasu shot.



That makes no sense because Ē was already capable of blitzing Sasuke.  Hence why Sasuke manifested Susanō and kept it active for the duration  of the match ? to protect himself. Ē didn't need his super Shunshin to  destroy Susanō. We know this because Ē broke a rib while standing still.

The hit and run strategy was safely employed with just V1 speed. Ē's  super Shunshin was used only once during the whole fight and it was used  to dodge Amaterasu. As soon as Sasuke's eyes starting bleeding Shī  realizes Ē is going to use his super Shunshin to counter what's coming,  so the implication is clear.

I think it's safe to assume Ē knew about the black flames considering Shī also had some information on it. 



> I agree he was talking about Ei's typical RNY speed, rather than  the max-speed Ei is capable of with Shunshin. But Sandaime was also not  using Shunshin when that comparison was made. So if Sandaime roughly  equals Ei w/o Shunshin, he's probably not terribly far off from Ei's  max-speed with his own Shunshin.


Sandaime used Shunshin _at least_  once after that, though. And there were no afterimages. Shunshin is  just a burst of speed. Not something Kishimoto comments on all that  much.



> When it comes to portrayal Sandaime fought Hachibi to a draw, and  seemingly did it w/o the Amber-Sealing-Jar, and partly due to Hachibi  getting lucky that Sandaime literally fell on his own sword. I don't see  Itachi being that far above someone capable of beating or even drawing  with the second strongest Bijuu. Or we can also look at Sandaime-Raikage  taking on 10,000 Shinobi for 3-days and 3 nights, something which is  again at least in Itachi's league. He's also the strongest Raikage, and  has a number of amazing abilities. So I don't think portrayal places  Itachi higher than Sandaime-Raikage or at least not that much higher,  and that's Itachi w/o being heavily restricted as he is here.


Put  Itachi in the same situation and Amaterasu stops Gyūki dead in its  tracks and with far less effort. 

Itachi has faced stronger characters (Nagato / Sage Kabuto) and has  accumulated a lot of hype throughout the manga. Itachi is simply more  important to the storyline because of his connection to Sasuke as a  benchmark. That should factor into his portrayal. 

So there's no doubt in my mind Kishimoto would have Itachi come out on  top if he wrote this fight, albeit with some difficultly. 



> Than I really struggle to see Sandaime-Raikage getting hit easily by it.


I don't think it will be easy.


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## Bonly (Oct 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Why? Is there something that hints more towards the former rather than the latter? I would personally think Ei being exceedingly quick even w/o his max-speed would lean more towards the latter, than Sasuke triumphing RNY Ei's speed so extensively.



Jugo was able to react and put up a defense at the last second. With Sasuke's speed he showed(which was above Jugo's) and Sharingan I see no reason for me to believe it's latter rather then the former.




> Your the one who brought up the situation



Can you show me where I brought up the situation of "put Itachi in the exact same position of Jugo"? 



> So question is can Susano'o defend Nukite, right?



If you want to ask a question to an obvious answer then sure.



> He doesn't just stick out his finger, the Raiton chakra extends from his finger in the form of a spear:
> Link removed



I was simplifying.



> And what do you mean Ei can do the same thing? When has Ei shown he can form the Nukite spear extending from his finger?



A can stick out a finger just like his dad can more or less, he just won't as long of a spear 




> No I haven't been.



Yes, yes you have.



> Okay, fair enough, but eventually necessitates Itachi surviving until he lands Amaterasu, and than probably some time afterwards given Sandaime's durability. Which again would depend on how he defends against Nukite and Kurokaminari.



Upon which I see Itachi landing it before he get hit by a deadly blow.



> How?



"Itachi has clones, crows(which can be used for clones), and the enviroment to help cause distractions to set up feints and get in good positions to land a deadly hit"




> The clone can do plenty of stuff, but none of it would faze Sandaime, and the clone could not defend Nukite.



Crow clones can turn into crows which can cloud the Sandaime's sight for a second or two which allows Itachi to gain some distance or maybe set up another clone for a feint or things of that nature.



> Itachi feinted Kabuto w/ Sasuke help. And Kabuto was clearly unaware of the truth depth Itachi clone feinting skills, which will not be an issue for Sandaime here.



So with a distraction(which Itachi has the tools to make here) he was able to feint a Sage Mode Sensor? 



> By universal I was talking about considering many different scenario's. However if we want to talk about the likelihood of someone knowing about how the treasure tools work, it doesn't seem like many outside Kumokaguru do, and even inside Kumogakuru a top ninja like Darui did not.



If we're talking about the likelihood of someone knowing about the pot, you can bet Kishi would likely have Itachi as one of the few.




> Kurokaminari aside, which I don't think we can make any judgments for or against at this point. Nukite is hyped to be vastly stronger than FRS, so I wouldn't say that with the same level of confidence that you are.



I don't see FRS getting through Itachi's V4 Susanoo nor do I see Nukite doing such.



> And you base this on what? When has Susano'o withstood an attack like FRS, let alone one that is much more powerful.



I'd base it on the DB which has the Yata Mirror being able to stop the attacks from the five basic elements.


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## Thunder (Oct 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Ei did not blitz Sasuke before super-shunshin. In-fact Sasuke aim dodged Ei's attack and landed Chidori on him. Ei than took the initiative to grab Sasuke, while Sasuke was in a compromised position due to his attack failing.



Ē barely fought with Sasuke before super Shunshin was used. They charged at each other and that was pretty much it. If their initial clashes were prolonged would've seen more blitzing action.



> Ei used his super shunshin to get behind Sasuke and set up Raigyaku Suihei.


Sasuke was standing around like Madara is prone to do when he's got Susanō active. Not seeing how such a burst of speed was necessary to get behind a _stationary_ target.



> And obviously the placement of the attack mattered, unless we are to believe Raigyaku Suihei is more powerful than Raigā Bomu


The placement didn't matter. We're talking about a glorified chop which had no running momentum behind it. 

Raigyaku Suihei is a more _focused_ attack than Raigā Bomu is. Not a more powerful one. Ē de-horned Gyūki with Raigyaku Suihei. Would Raigā Bomu have accomplished that feat? Of course not. However, that doesn't mean Raigyaku Suihei > Raigā Bomu. You're comparing two very dissimilar attacks here. 



> I agree Ei knew about the flames and so did Shi. So if the Super-Shunshin was only used to counter Amaterasu, than you'd think Shi would have said that, instead of citing MS in general.


From Shī's perspective Sasuke could have other Mangekyō Sharingan jutsu besides Amaterasu and Susanō. So it makes sense to be more general in that case. "Mangekyō Sharingan" covers any and all possibilities. 

I say Amaterasu was _directly_ countered by Ē because Kishimoto went out of his way to show it. 

You've got to view this from a causal reader's perspective otherwise you'll fall into the trap of looking too deeply into the matter. A causal reader would not infer Ē countered Susanō with speed. A casual reader would infer Ē countered Amaterasu with speed. Because it was highlighted by the author. 



> In fairly certain Kishi just didn't bother to show us. After all we know Ei used Max-Speed a number of other times, and yet there was no after-image those times ether.


Eh. You're right Turrin. Seems it was a one time thing. My mistake.



> Not really dude. Hachibi would just block it with it's tentacle (as it did in the manga cannon) and than separate the tentacle from it's body (as we saw it do in the manga cannon, against another attack).


Removing the tentacle didn't stop the flames from rapidly spreading the first time. Why would it now? And it's not like Itachi couldn't light him up a second time for good measure. Kirābī escaped with a clever usage of Kawarimi but Gyūki won't be so lucky.



> And even if that weren't the case, Hachibi would have it's own one-shots via TBB & Continuos TBB.


Depends on who gets off their attack first. I'm pretty sure Itachi could survive at least one Bijūdama with Susanō and the Yata Mirror. It was stated bijū are less powerful without their hosts.



> He faced those characters with significant help and upgrades.


Doesn't take away from the fact Itachi faced them, though. Then there's all the hype statements . . . Kishimoto loves Itachi. Look at the latest chapter. A heated debate about Itachi. 



> More importance doesn't effect strength, it effects panel time. More panel time usually means more numerous feats, so it makes it easier to argue for more plot relevant characters in NBD, but that doesn't represent where they actually are suppose to be in strength. For example Hinata has more plot relevance than most rookies for example, yet she is one of the weakest rookies. Gaara is extremely plot relevant, but he won't beat Hachibi easily. To give but a few examples. Not to mention Hachibi has been quite plot relevant alongside B, acting as Naruto's Jinchuuriki mentors.


I'm not saying plot relevance is the _only_ factor. It just ties in with everything else we know about Itachi. 



> I can understand Itachi coming out ontop, but I can't understand an Itachi whose restricted from his best Ninja-Art coming out on top.


Genjutsu is Itachi's thing but so the Mangekyō Sharingan. It grants him access to two of the strongest and most revered ninjutsu in the verse. 

Illusions are often used by Itachi in order to set up attacks. So he'll compensate by relying on other forms of distractions instead.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Oct 6, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Nah, the Raiton armor will offer some protection.
> 
> But he is not immune to heat, and Amaterasu will stay lit on his body instead of just dissipating like a normal Katon. It will eventually eat through his Raiton armor and then take to his flesh.
> 
> ...




*sigh*

Well, we're just going to have to "agree to disagree" sir.

......because we both have our solid points, and the way things are going, it doesn't look like either of us is going to be swayed and withdraw to the opposing party - even if we keep at it for another 5 pages.


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## Turrin (Oct 6, 2014)

Thunder said:


> Ē barely fought with Sasuke before super Shunshin was used. They charged at each other and that was pretty much it. If their initial clashes were prolonged would've seen more blitzing action.


How could we see more blitzing action, when we saw Sasuke evade Ei's strike? 



> Sasuke was standing around like Madara is prone to do when he's got Susanō active. Not seeing how such a burst of speed was necessary to get behind a stationary target.


Just because he was standing in one instance doesn't mean he would continue to do so. Ei had already experienced Sasuke being able to react to his R1 speed, and land his own attack. There is really no reason to dick around at slower speeds giving Sasuke more openings once MS came into play.



> The placement didn't matter. We're talking about a glorified chop which had no running momentum behind it.


Fair enough, but if placement didn't matter than surely being able to catch Sasuke off guard did. Otherwise Sasuke could have potentially evade Raigyaku Suihei, as he did Ei's Erubō, or put a Susano'o hand in the way to absorb more of that attack. 



> From Shī's perspective Sasuke could have other Mangekyō Sharingan jutsu besides Amaterasu and Susanō. So it makes sense to be more general in that case. "Mangekyō Sharingan" covers any and all possibilities.


Okay, but following that same train of thought, Ei could have been thinking the same thing, I.E. Sasuke could have more MS Jutsu so it's best to pull out my top speed and corner him completely rather than giving Sasuke any openings to use MS against him.



> You've got to view this from a causal reader's perspective otherwise you'll fall into the trap of looking too deeply into the matter. A causal reader would not infer Ē countered Susanō with speed. A casual reader would infer Ē countered Amaterasu with speed. Because it was highlighted by the author.


It's hard for ether of us to speculate what a casual reader would infer, because we aren't casual readers. However if you want to take the text at it's most base value, than Shi stating Ei is using Max-Speed to counter MS, is a general statement and not explicitly referring to Amaterasu. It would be taking a step further, to say, that the technique he was shown countering was Amaterasu, therefore MS refers to only Amaterasu, and Ei absolutely needed his top-speed to evade Amaterasu, and even if he was a few miliseconds slower he would have failed.



> Removing the tentacle didn't stop the flames from rapidly spreading the first time. Why would it now? And it's not like Itachi couldn't light him up a second time for good measure. Kirābī escaped with a clever usage of Kawarimi but Gyūki won't be so lucky.


It's hard to apply the Sasuke situation to Itachi

1) The Amaterasu Sasuke used was extremely massive, we do not know if Itachi can even create one on that scale (it's no mystery that Sasuke is better with the black-flames than Itachi) or how much it would tax Itachi who has less chakra than Sasuke, and even Sasuke himself was tax'd quite heavily

2) Killer B was stagging the entire thing so he could go on vacation. If he was there to win or if it was Hachibi we don't know how events would have played out. There does seem to me time where something as fast as Hachibi could cut it's tentacle off, if it choose to do so instead of trying to extinguish the flames by jumping in the water. 

-------

But let's consider for a second that Itachi can uses such a massive Amaterasu, and Hachibi can't cut his tentacle free in time. Hachibi was still able to continue to rampage with the Amaterasu flames on him up until the moment B was completely separate from the Kwarimi. So if Hachibi was hit he'd still be attacking Itachi for some time, which undoubtably Itachi would need Susano'o to survive. So were still talking about Itachi using a massive Amaterasu and Susano'o, besides any other Jutsu he may have used prior to releasing Amaterasu. That is still a high difficulty match is it not.



> Depends on who gets off their attack first. I'm pretty sure Itachi could survive at least one Bijūdama with Susanō and the Yata Mirror.


Why do you think Susano'o can survive a TBB from the second strongest Bijuu? Or continuous TBB



> Doesn't take away from the fact Itachi faced them, though


Hachibi faced the Juubi, so does that make Hachibi's hype better. 



> then there's all the hype statements . . .


Itachi has a-lot of hype statements, but none when they come to strength excel defeating Hachibi or taking on an army of 10K, etc... by a vast margin where it's clear that Itachi would win w/ heavy restrictions.



> .  Kishimoto loves Itachi. Look at the latest chapter. A heated debate about Itachi.


Kishimoto stated his favorite Edo-Tensei was Deidara; considering Itachi was also an Edo-Tensei that means he favored Deidara more. Yet he had Deidara get WTFPWN'd by the ambush-squad. Like I said favoritism can lead to more panel time, which can lead to more feats, but it doesn't change how strong Kishimoto views the character.



> I'm not saying plot relevance is the only factor. It just ties in with everything else we know about Itachi.


And i'm saying that plot relevance or Kishi's favoritism do not add anything in a discussion of strength. 



> Genjutsu is Itachi's thing but so the Mangekyō Sharingan. It grants him access to two of the strongest and most revered ninjutsu in the verse.
> 
> Illusions are often used by Itachi in order to set up attacks. So he'll compensate by relying on other forms of distractions instead.


Itachi's isn't just about illusions, but if X & Y characters are reasonably close to each other in strength, and you restrict a number character-X's main abilities, even if character-X started out a bit stronger than character-Y, there is no guarantee that character-X would still be viewed the same strength wise in relation to character-Y.

This is what i'm trying to highlight to you about portrayal. All of Itachi's portrayal is based around Itachi having Genjutsu. Take Genjutsu away and non of Itachi's general portrayal really applies anymore. So to argue portrayal in a scenario where Itachi w/o Genjutsu has never really recieved any portrayal seems a bit fruitless to me, because even if we agree Itachi's portrayed as stronger than Sandaime, we're going to be talking about an Itachi who has Genjutsu, not an Itachi whose Genjutsu is restricted.



Bonly said:


> Jugo was able to react and put up a defense at the last second. With Sasuke's speed he showed(which was above Jugo's) and Sharingan I see no reason for me to believe it's latter rather then the former.


I'm confused. If Juugo reacted and put up a defense at the last second and Sasuke evaded at the last second. That supports Sasuke being faster than Juugo because he was able to evade while Juugo could not. But I don't see how that supports Sasuke being able to evade much quicker than he actually did.



> Can you show me where I brought up the situation of "put Itachi in the exact same position of Jugo"?


You brought up the Juugo example, under the context of if Juugo can block so can Itachi. Something I agreed with, but I am now following that to it's logical conclusion, of what Itachi would block with and how that would hold up to Nukite. If this wasn't your intent please explain to me the purpose of the Juugo example.



> If you want to ask a question to an obvious answer then sure.


Why is the answer obvious?



> I was simplifying. A can stick out a finger just like his dad can more or less, he just won't as long of a spear


So we agree that the reach of Sandaime's Nukite attack is much greater than Ei's Erubō than?



> Upon which I see Itachi landing it before he get hit by a deadly blow.


Which is dependent on Susano'o being able to defend Nukite, correct?



> "Itachi has clones, crows(which can be used for clones), and the enviroment to help cause distractions to set up feints and get in good positions to land a deadly hit


When Itachi clone feints he's always right next to the clone, hiding behind the clone (or the clone hiding behind him). He's never used clone feint to create a massive golf in distance between himself and the enemy, nor does he really have the skills to do so. Kakashi typically uses clones this way, but he uses Doton to slip underground, which Itachi doesn't have. So I can see how clones could be used in CQC, but not to remove Itachi from CQC entirely. 

As for the environment, you'd have to explain more about that.



> Crow clones can turn into crows which can cloud the Sandaime's sight for a second or two which allows Itachi to gain some distance or maybe set up another clone for a feint or things of that nature.


I don't see the crows doing anything here, because they can't damage Sandaime in anyway, and Sandaime is much faster than them. So if the Bushin turns into crows, Sandaime will just shunshin right after the real Itachi.



> So with a distraction(which Itachi has the tools to make here) he was able to feint a Sage Mode Sensor?


Against Kabuto two Stage 3 - Susano'o were used as the distract, so no he does not have the tools to make such a distraction here. Nor do I think it's fair to even use this comparison. 

If you want to tell me how Itachi will distract Sandaime sufficiently enough to clone feint him feel free, but this is not an apt example.



> If we're talking about the likelihood of someone knowing about the pot, you can bet Kishi would likely have Itachi as one of the few.


Itachi knows a-lot about Konoha, but he's never shown a detailed knowledge of Kumogakuru or it's special weapons. Itachi may or may not know about it, but Kishi will give him knowledge off it because lolz it's Itachi, is not an argument worth discussing.



> I don't see FRS getting through Itachi's V4 Susanoo nor do I see Nukite doing such.
> I'd base it on the DB which has the Yata Mirror being able to stop the attacks from the five basic elements.


According to the DB Yata Mirror can change it's affinity to the appropriate one to defend the attack. However also according to the manga, the two elemental jutsu need to be off equal strength, for elemental affinities to come into play.

That brings us back around to the question of whether Yata Mirror is of equal strength to a jutsu that is much stronger than FRS. (and possibly even a TBB, as Hachibi implied he used a TBB against Sandaime ineffectually).


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> This is what i'm trying to highlight to you about portrayal. All of Itachi's portrayal is based around Itachi having Genjutsu. Take Genjutsu away and non of Itachi's general portrayal really applies anymore. So to argue portrayal in a scenario where Itachi w/o Genjutsu has never really recieved any portrayal seems a bit fruitless to me, because even if we agree Itachi's portrayed as stronger than Sandaime, we're going to be talking about an Itachi who has Genjutsu, not an Itachi whose Genjutsu is restricted.



Thats a retarded argument. Especially in BD.

But even from the manga perspective, it still doesn't make sense. Itachi fought Nagato without using any genjutsu. Against Kabuto, the same. Itachi being hyped for genjutsu doesn't change the fact that he can kill Raikage with Amaterasu or basically out muscle him with Susano'o. Genjutsu is Itachi's forte, but it isn't his bread and butter like Kamui is for Obito or Hirashin for Minato. You take away genjutsu and Itachi still has an extremely lethal high end arsenal that will allow him to defeat people around his level.

Itachi was portrayed way above Sandaime, so restricting Itachi makes perfect sense.
Naruto managed to bring down Sandaime with a clone and a rasengan.


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## StickaStick (Oct 6, 2014)

In the examples you cited Itachi had Edo buffs and help. 

Here he has neither. 

Not sure what you mean about Kabuto either; Izanami = genjutsu.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Oct 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats a retarded argument. Especially in BD.
> 
> But even from the manga perspective, it still doesn't make sense. Itachi fought Nagato without using any genjutsu. Against Kabuto, the same. Itachi being hyped for genjutsu doesn't change the fact that he can kill Raikage with Amaterasu or basically out muscle him with Susano'o. Genjutsu is Itachi's forte, but it isn't his bread and butter like Kamui is for Obito or Hirashin for Minato. You take away genjutsu and Itachi still has an extremely lethal high end arsenal that will allow him to defeat people around his level.
> 
> ...





Now was this Sandaime himself fighting?
Or Sandaime being controlled via a jutsu?


Because if it's the latter (which it was), then the bolded holds no merit towards this fight.



And Brah, Susano'o isn't "out muscling" a man who exchanged physical blows with a Bijuu.
Hell, the Full Version of Sasuke's Suanso'o got its back blown out by a Fuuton with the combined force of Danzou and his Tapir summon. Can't really see how Itachi's is much stronger, especially when he doesn't even have the amount of Chakra Sasuke possessed at the time to maintain his.


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## JuicyG (Oct 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Naruto managed to bring down Sandaime with a clone and a rasengan.




That was a tactical move that allowed Naruto the win. Itachi without knowledge wouldn't have the stamina to last long enough to figure that out and then execute the similar tactic. True Itachi has Ama but I'm still in the thought process that Sandiame can dodge it unless Itachi gets close enough.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 6, 2014)

Quikdraw7777 said:


> Now was this Sandaime himself fighting?
> Or Sandaime being controlled via a jutsu?
> 
> Because if it's the latter (which it was), then the bolded holds no merit towards this fight.


Aside from his mindset, his capabilities don't change.
We've seen the extend of his power and ability.

And from a portrayal stand point, it doesn't change the fact that he was relatively weak and uninmportant compared to Itachi.



> And Brah, Susano'o isn't "out muscling" a man who exchanged physical blows with a Bijuu.


We know that he chopped off B's tentacles. Other than that we don't know how much he harmed him but I guess if he had it was probably through his Nukite.
Do you doubt for a second that Totsuka can't chop off B's tentacles like hot knife through butter ? 



> Hell, the Full Version of Sasuke's Suanso'o got its back blown out by a Fuuton with the combined force of Danzou and his Tapir summon. Can't really see how Itachi's is much stronger, especially when he doesn't even have the amount of Chakra Sasuke possessed at the time to maintain his.



I am not sure what your point is.



StickaStick said:


> In the examples you cited Itachi had Edo buffs and help


. 
What are edo buffs ?
And against Kabuto he was heavily restricted. He didn't access any of his arsenal properly.




> Here he has neither.


Doesn't need them either.



> Not sure what you mean about Kabuto either; Izanami = genjutsu.



Itachi had to capture him alive, and he didn't use Izanami as a crutch during the whole fight.



JuicyG said:


> That was a tactical move that allowed Naruto the win. Itachi without knowledge wouldn't have the stamina to last long enough to figure that out and then execute the similar tactic.


First off, Itachi doesn't need to do the same thing Naruto did. 
Also Itachi is much smarter and sightful than Naruto or Sandaime Raikage. If he needs to employ a tactic, I am pretty sure he can do it quickly and effectively. Like he has always done before.
Itachi isn't sick here, so I don't think stamina will become too big of a deal either, especailly when you consider Itachi can end Raikage with Amaterasu fairly quickly.



> True Itachi has Ama but I'm still in the thought process that Sandiame can dodge it unless Itachi gets close enough.


Your thought process is wrong, because it doesn't have anything to do with what we've read in the manga.


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## StickaStick (Oct 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What are edo buffs ?


Those things that allow Itachi to use his MS without tangible drawbacks and avoid "dying".



> And against Kabuto he was heavily restricted. He didn't access any of his arsenal properly.


Okay. Kabuto was restricted as well w/ lack of killing intent and his best Edos already on the battlefield.



> Doesn't need them either.


Genjutsu would ensure a low-mid diff. victory against Sandaime. Without it, it could go either way IMO.



> Itachi had to capture him alive, and he didn't use Izanami as a crutch during the whole fight.


Itachi planned his entire strategy around using Izanami; a task made easier by the fact that he could take any hits and couldn't "die". Itachi and Sasuke were fucked without it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 6, 2014)

StickaStick said:


> Those things that allow Itachi to use his MS without tangible drawbacks and avoid "dying".


His sickness caused all that. So again, I am not sure what you are referring to with "Edo buffs."



> Okay. Kabuto was restricted as well w/ lack of killing intent and his best Edos already on the battlefield.


Kabuto tried to hit Itachi as hard as he could. He only was cautious with Sasuke.



> Genjutsu would ensure a low-mid diff. victory against Sandaime. Without it, it could go either way IMO.


There is nothing Sandaime can do against Susano'o or Amaterasu. Again, I am not really sure how this can go eitherway when Sandaime has no way of fighting against those techniques. 



> Itachi planned his entire strategy around using Izanami; a task made easier by the fact that he could take any hits and couldn't "die". Itachi and Sasuke were fucked without it.


Izanami didn't do anything to Kabuto or protected them from anything, and didn't came into effect up until the end of the battle.

And like I already mentioned, they were up against someone whom they couldn't risk harming, that prevented them from attacking him all together with their strongest moves.

My overall point is, Genjtusu isn't a crutch for Itachi. As Hirashin is for Minato, Kamui is for Obito, Raiton cloak is for A, sand is for Gaara and many other similar examples. You take those stuff away from those characters, and yes, they lose 90-99% of their power. 
You take away genjutsu from Itachi, and he still has Amaterasu and Susano'o which are stronger techniques than his genjutsu anyways.

The thing is, Itachi with Tsukiyomi could oneshot Raikage, making this a low dif win.
You take that away, and he can still oneshot him with Amaterasu. Difficulty doesn't change.


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## StickaStick (Oct 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> His sickness caused all that. So again, I am not sure what you are referring to with "Edo buffs."


"Sick" Itachi = Canon Alive Itachi. Canon Alive Itachi in the examples you cited gets murked. 

It isn't only his sickness btw. Even back when he used Tsukuyomi on Kakashi there were drawbacks. And again after he used Ama on Jiraiya's toad thing. Using MS has always had it's drawbacks for Itachi.



> Kabuto tried to hit Itachi as hard as he could.


Impossible, since he also had to keep tabs on Sasuke. 



> There is nothing Sandaime can do against Susano'o or Amaterasu. Again, I am not really sure how this can go eitherway when Sandaime has no way of fighting against those techniques.


Sure there is. He can, you know, not get hit by them. Something even Hebi Sasuke was able to do after Itachi tried to set his wing on fire. Same deal with Susanoo + Totsuka.

How he attacks Susanoo depends on whether Hellstab can piece V4. If not, Sandaime can wait Itachi out until his reliance on Susanoo exhausts his chakra.



> Izanami didn't do anything to Kabuto or protected them from anything, and didn't came into effect up until the end of the battle.


What does it matter if it only went into effect at the end? It was their only method of winning.



> And like I already mentioned, they were up against someone whom they couldn't risk harming, that prevented them from attacking him all together with their strongest moves.


Not that it matters, but what exactly could they done unrestricted? 

Tsukuyomi, Ama, and Totsuka are all useless against Kabuto.



> My overall point is, Genjtusu isn't a crutch for Itachi. As Hirashin is for Minato, Kamui is for Obito, Raiton cloak is for A, sand is for Gaara and many other similar examples. You take those stuff away from those characters, and yes, they lose 90-99% of their power.


You take away their powers, and Kishi writes new ones in. These characters are all going to be in their spot spot regardless.

It's also a bit disingenuous to take away all of these characters crutches and not take away Itachi's crutch, which is MS. Do that and he becomes fodder like everyone else. In some cases worse.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 6, 2014)

itachi wins via amatarasu, or totsuka should do the trick.


The third doen's have v2 speed and won't be able to outrun amatarasu for ever and will get tagged, even if he continuous to fight, the amatarasu will just eventually burn threw his tuff skin thus granting itachi the win


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## IchLiebe (Oct 6, 2014)

I doubt totsuka pierces Raikage. A bijuubomb didn't hurt him. A KMC rasenshuriken didn't do shit to him despite having element advantage. I just don't see it.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 6, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> I doubt totsuka pierces Raikage. A bijuubomb didn't hurt him. A KMC rasenshuriken didn't do shit to him despite having element advantage. I just don't see it.



While i don't believe it will go threw him like butter or like how it wen't threw orochimaru


i do believe it will pierce his skin, with totsuka i don't believe it has to deal a killing blow to absorb someone.


then there's amatarasu


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## IchLiebe (Oct 6, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> While i don't believe it will go threw him like butter or like how it wen't threw orochimaru
> 
> 
> i do believe it will pierce his skin, with totsuka i don't believe it has to deal a killing blow to absorb someone.
> ...



It must impale the target, one would say that is logically a fatal blow. 


And, amaterasu is weak and burn slowly. Compare it to how quick Karin's clothes were to be burned...it isn't doing much in the battle.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 6, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> It must impale the target, one would say that is logically a fatal blow.



where does it say it must impale the target? ive heard it must pierce the target, but not impale.




IchLiebe said:


> And, amaterasu is weak and burn slowly. Compare it to how quick Karin's clothes were to be burned...it isn't doing much in the battle.



well that was sasuke's amatarasu so instead of arguing inconsistencies im just going to point out, how quickly itachi's amatarasu downed cerberous and nagato.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Oct 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Aside from his mindset, his capabilities don't change.
> We've seen the extend of his power and ability.
> 
> And from a portrayal stand point, it doesn't change the fact that he was relatively weak and uninmportant compared to Itachi.
> ...




My point?

Is that Susano'o (aside from PERFECT form) is not infallible. Danzou revealed that, with a powerful enough attack concentrated on a single spot, one can tear open an area on the jutsu.

Hell, even when Itachi used it to brace himself against Kirin, it didn't compelety negate the attack -as evidenced when Itachi was laying face down in the rubble when the dust cleared.

And you say "Amaterasu will end it quickly"....
Since when did the technique ignore the durability of it's targets?
It's not Jinton, man. Itachi would still have to elude this guy IF he does land the jutsu, which is going to be difficult to do when he winces from the pain of casting it - JUST like he did with Sasuke EVERY time he used it.

And do yourself a favor and forget about that Sword of Totsuka. If it's a physical strike not on par with a bijuudama, it's not even worth enough for the Raikage to pay attention to. You know that.


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## JuicyG (Oct 6, 2014)

Quikdraw7777 said:


> My point?
> 
> Is that Susano'o (aside from PERFECT form) is not infallible. Danzou revealed that, with a powerful enough attack concentrated on a single spot, one can tear open an area on the jutsu.
> 
> ...




Thats what I been trying to get across to Grimm. It doesnt seem to work, in fact he will comment back on this fabulous post and try to find some reason (nonexistent) to say your wrong. 

I believe that Itachi can land the amaterasu, though i believe with no knowledge he'll miss the first attempt underestimating Raikages speed. During the Hell stab blitz Itachi will through up Susanoo and land the second amaterasu and I think they both eventually K.O themselves. Amaterasu eventually kills Raikage and the hell stab hits Itachi. Itachi will not expect the hell stab is that powerful (again no knowledge) and thus get tagged. 

Very rational view right there


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## StickaStick (Oct 6, 2014)

@JuicyG.

Not sure if you're discussing something slightly unrelated from this thread, but both Itachi and Sandaime have full knowledge here.



Quikdraw7777 said:


> My point?
> 
> Is that Susano'o (aside from PERFECT form) is not infallible. Danzou revealed that, with a powerful enough attack concentrated on a single spot, one can tear open an area on the jutsu.



To be fair, it's very up in the air whether Jigokuzuki can actually pierce V4 Susanoo or not; the lower levels I don't think there's much question that it could, but with full knowledge I doubt Itachi would risk using anything less than V4 if it looks like Sandaime is going in for a strike. Besides that, Sandaime can't replicate what Danzo did because his means of tearing open Susanoo were very different from Sandaime's. 

It's also questionable which version of Susanoo he used against Kirin, as V4 likely would have been too slow to match Kirin's speed so I don't believe it broke through Itachi's highest Susanoo form which is really what's in question here.

The other stuff I more or less agree with.


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## Bonly (Oct 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I'm confused. If Juugo reacted and put up a defense at the last second and Sasuke evaded at the last second. That supports Sasuke being faster than Juugo because he was able to evade while Juugo could not. But I don't see how that supports Sasuke being able to evade much quicker than he actually did.



Jugo can't see where his enemy is gonna be before he does such like the Sharingan can and yet he still managed to put up a defense. Sasuke has the luxury of being able to see where A is gonna be before he does such and he's faster then Jugo. 




> You brought up the Juugo example, under the context of if Juugo can block so can Itachi. Something I agreed with, but I am now following that to it's logical conclusion, of what Itachi would block with and how that would hold up to Nukite. If this wasn't your intent please explain to me the purpose of the Juugo example.



The point of the example is simple. Sandaime was suggest to be as fast as V1 A. Thus if someone like Jugo can manage to put up a block at the last second, someone with Itachi's speed and reactions which are better then Jugo's, Itachi shouldn't be getting lolblitzed 24/7 like Quickdraw was suggesting. 



> Why is the answer obvious?



Yata Mirror.




> So we agree that the reach of Sandaime's Nukite attack is much greater than Ei's Erubō than?



Sure we can agree that the reach is more wasn't denying that.




> Which is dependent on Susano'o being able to defend Nukite, correct?



No.



> When Itachi clone feints he's always right next to the clone, hiding behind the clone (or the clone hiding behind him). He's never used clone feint to create a massive golf in distance between himself and the enemy, nor does he really have the skills to do so. Kakashi typically uses clones this way, but he uses Doton to slip underground, which Itachi doesn't have. So I can see how clones could be used in CQC, but not to remove Itachi from CQC entirely.



Itachi never does such because he doesn't need to. If he wants to then he has the tools to do it with his jutsu activation speed.



> As for the environment, you'd have to explain more about that.



It's not rocket science. There are multiple large rocks in the area which Itachi can use for cover if he gets the chance.  



> I don't see the crows doing anything here, because they can't damage Sandaime in anyway, and Sandaime is much faster than them. So if the Bushin turns into crows, Sandaime will just shunshin right after the real Itachi.



Well no shit they can't hurt him. Again the point of crows can be to distract for a second or two to allow another set up. That's it, nothing more, nothing less. 




> Against Kabuto two Stage 3 - Susano'o were used as the distract, so no he does not have the tools to make such a distraction here. Nor do I think it's fair to even use this comparison.



You failed to answer the question so I'll ask again. This is a yes or no question. So with a distraction he was able to feint a Sage Mode Sensor?



> If you want to tell me how Itachi will distract Sandaime sufficiently enough to clone feint him feel free, but this is not an apt example.



Already did.




> Itachi knows a-lot about Konoha, but he's never shown a detailed knowledge of Kumogakuru or it's special weapons. Itachi may or may not know about it, but Kishi will give him knowledge off it because lolz it's Itachi, is not an argument worth discussing.



I don't care if you find it worth discussing or not whether you like it or not Kishi has a high chance to pull something out his ass for Itachi. It's that simple, not saying he does or he doesn't just pointing that out if you wanna talk about "likelihood".




> According to the DB Yata Mirror can change it's affinity to the appropriate one to defend the attack. However also according to the manga, the two elemental jutsu need to be off equal strength, for elemental affinities to come into play.
> 
> That brings us back around to the question of whether Yata Mirror is of equal strength to a jutsu that is much stronger than FRS. (and possibly even a TBB, as Hachibi implied he used a TBB against Sandaime ineffectually).



No that brings you back to that question. It doesn't bring me back to the question because I have no reason to believe FRS nor Nukite is getting through it.


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## JuicyG (Oct 6, 2014)

StickaStick said:


> @JuicyG.
> 
> Not sure if you're discussing something slightly unrelated from this thread, but both Itachi and Sandaime have full knowledge here



My apologizes. Its been a little while since I read the OP


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## Thunder (Oct 6, 2014)

*@Turrin*

We could keep going back and forth in circles like we've been doing but I feel we're not going to convince each other. And I don't wish to argue for the sake of arguing. So I'm pulling out.

You believe the Sandaime Raikage evades Amaterasu and I believe it will get him. Let's agree to disagree.


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## JuicyG (Oct 6, 2014)

Either way.

Its obviously a great match up made. Reps to OP and a few others who made good points.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Oct 6, 2014)

StickaStick said:


> @JuicyG.
> 
> Not sure if you're discussing something slightly unrelated from this thread, but both Itachi and Sandaime have full knowledge here.
> 
> ...




*1st Bolded*
Sooooo, one of Danzou's casual attacks (amped up by extra wind from a summon), Is more effective than that of literally *THE*  strongest concentrated technique of one of the men with *THE*  most chakra in the history of Naruto? IF Sandiame is able to open up Susano'o with Hellstab Hand Itachi is dead; he'll just keep the momentum going and put his entire arm right clean through his body.


Yeeeeah.......I'm going to have my doubts on that...


*2nd Bolded:*
SO you're telling me that Ei's Raiga Bomb and Raiton Chop can snap the bones on Sasuke's incomplete Susano'o like twigs, but a *natural* Bolt of lightning - which Zetsu explicitly stated exceeded that of human capability as far as destructive power - couldn't do a damn thing to Itachi's incomplete version?


Do you really think there is that much of a gap between the toughness of their Susano'o!?


This just keeps getting more interesting by the minute.


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## Turrin (Oct 6, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Jugo can't see where his enemy is gonna be before he does such like the Sharingan can and yet he still managed to put up a defense. Sasuke has the luxury of being able to see where A is gonna be before he does such and he's faster then Jugo.
> .


Which again is represented by Sasuke being able to evade Ei's strike while Juugo could barely block it.



> The point of the example is simple. Sandaime was suggest to be as fast as V1 A. Thus if someone like Jugo can manage to put up a block at the last second, someone with Itachi's speed and reactions which are better then Jugo's, Itachi shouldn't be getting lolblitzed 24/7 like Quickdraw was suggesting.


R1 Ei and Sandaime were compared on the basis of "normal"-speed. We never got to see Sandaime's Shunshin speed. So while I won't take a position that Sandaime can certainly blitz Itachi w/ Shunshin, I'm not going to entirely rule out the possibility ether. Though the match starting at 25m w/ knowledge should give Itachi ample oppertunity to pull out Susano'o, if a blitz were to be an issue.



> Yata Mirror.


I don't see Yata as an obvious answer for reasons I expressed at the bottom of my last post.



> Sure we can agree that the reach is more wasn't denying that.


Than can we also agree that it's more difficult to evade than Ei's Erebo?



> Itachi never does such because he doesn't need to. If he wants to then he has the tools to do it with his jutsu activation speed.


Jutsu activation speed doesn't bend space & time. It's not like Itachi can suddenly teleport 20m away when he creates a Bushin. If Itachi creates a Bushin, the Bushin will be made right next to or in-front of him, in which case Itachi's only avenue to cloak himself or the bushin is hiding in it's shadow. Again he doesn't have a jutsu to doton underground, teleport away from the bushin's location, etc...



> It's not rocket science. There are multiple large rocks in the area which Itachi can use for cover if he gets the chance


I would think more LOS blockers, when Itachi's avenue for victory is suppose to be Amaterasu, would not be a good thing. 

Can he hide with them, sure, if he can escape Sandaime, which considering Sandaime's speed is a major problem.



> Well no shit they can't hurt him. Again the point of crows can be to distract for a second or two to allow another set up. That's it, nothing more, nothing less.


I don't see how something that is completely ineffectual to Sandaime will distract him. He doesn't have deal with the crows, he can just ignore them and shunshin right towards Itachi. 



> You failed to answer the question so I'll ask again. This is a yes or no question. So with a distraction he was able to feint a Sage Mode Sensor?


I already answered it, he was not able to do it; him and Sasuke combined were able to.



> I don't care if you find it worth discussing or not whether you like it or not Kishi has a high chance to pull something out his ass for Itachi. It's that simple, not saying he does or he doesn't just pointing that out if you wanna talk about "likelihood".


There have been plenty of times where Itachi hasn't seen a jutsu before. And it's not like Itachi pulls knowledge about things that it would be extremely contrived for him to know about. Like if Itachi magically knew about 100% FRS, despite it not being completed until after he died, than I'd take this claim more seriously. Otherwise it just seems like I want my character to win, but I don't know how, therefore I'll rest my argument on divine intervention.

And also to be frank the character that is more likely to pull off additional unseen Jutsu or knowledge would be Sandaime, because he's had a-lot less panel time to show what he's got, and he even has an ability like Kurokaminari that we never got to seem him use in his very brief display. So if one wants to go down this road, it should be Sandaime getting the benefit of the doubt more than Itachi.



> No that brings you back to that question. It doesn't bring me back to the question because I have no reason to believe FRS nor Nukite is getting through it.


Which brings me back to asking why? And no you can't just say Yata, because as I detailed, Yata's nature change ability is not sufficient to guarantee it's ability to block FRS, let alone Nukite. 

It's fine if you just have a feeling it would, but be straight-forward about the fact that this is based on nothing besides going with you gut.



Thunder said:


> *@Turrin*
> 
> We could keep going back and forth in circles like we've been doing but I feel we're not going to convince each other. And I don't wish to argue for the sake of arguing. So I'm pulling out.
> 
> You believe the Sandaime Raikage evades Amaterasu and I believe it will get him. Let's agree to disagree.


Actually I think Itachi can hit Sandaime w/ Amaterasu depending on the situation, but I could also see Sandaime evading consistently depending on the situation. The situation being the condition of the match as well as how Itachi choose to act strategically versus how Sandaime does. Basically I don't find it cut and dry ether way. However I do favor Sandaime's odds (or the odds of a draw) against a heavily restricted Itachi, because I think Itachi has a taller order to survive Sandaime until he hits him with Amaterasu and than probably quite a bit afterwards; and additionally I feel the two are portrayed around the same "level" when at their best, so Itachi being heavily restricted is at a disadvantage.


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## Thunder (Oct 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Actually I think Itachi can hit Sandaime w/ Amaterasu depending on the situation, but I could also see Sandaime evading consistently depending on the situation. The situation being the condition of the match as well as how Itachi choose to act strategically versus how Sandaime does. Basically I don't find it cut and dry ether way. However I do favor Sandaime's odds (or the odds of a draw) against a heavily restricted Itachi, because I think Itachi has a taller order to survive Sandaime until he hits him with Amaterasu and than probably quite a bit afterwards; and additionally I feel the two are portrayed around the same "level" when at their best, so Itachi being heavily restricted is at a disadvantage.



Well, I wouldn't say Itachi is heavily restricted here at all considering Itachi performs well in fights without genjutsu. Removing Raiton no Yoroi from the Sandaime Raikage or Ē is a better example of a heavy restriction. Because they have little showings without it.


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## Turrin (Oct 6, 2014)

Thunder said:


> Well, I wouldn't say Itachi is heavily restricted here at all considering Itachi performs well in fights without genjutsu. Removing Raiton no Yoroi from the Sandaime Raikage or Ē is a better example of a heavy restriction. Because they have little showings without it.


Orochimaru can perform well in situations when restricted from Yamata no Orochi, but I'd still consider that a heavy restriction. So I'm going to have to disagree with the idea that just because someone can perform well despite restrictions, doesn't mean they aren't heavily restrict. To me it's a heavy restriction, when some of that person's best abilities and jutsu are taken away. As for this situation in particular it's not hard to see why Genjutsu would open up additional possibilities for him defeating Sandaime, and giving him more win conditions.


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## Thunder (Oct 6, 2014)

That's a poor example as well in my eyes because we've never seen  Orochimaru use Yamata outside of one instance, and it was virtually  useless in that one instance. Yamata wasn't even used during the war.  Clearly it's not a jutsu Orochimaru absolutely _needs_. 

To me a restriction becomes "heavy" when it debilitates a character to  the point where they can no longer fight effectively against foes they  could beat otherwise. 

Itachi can fight _effectively_ against the Sandaime Raikage and others without genjutsu. Because he still has his trump card — the Mangekyō Sharingan. 

Restricting regeneration from Tsunade, Raiton no Yoroi from Ē, and  Suiton from Kisame — these are examples of heavy restrictions in my  book.


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## Turrin (Oct 6, 2014)

Thunder said:


> That's a poor example as well in my eyes because we've never seen  Orochimaru use Yamata outside of one instance, and it was virtually  useless in that one instance. Yamata wasn't even used during the war.  Clearly it's not a jutsu Orochimaru absolutely _needs_.
> 
> To me a restriction becomes "heavy" when it debilitates a character to  the point where they can no longer fight effectively against foes they  could beat otherwise.
> 
> ...


I think this just comes down to how you define "heavy", which is ultimately opinion based, as we have no scale given to use in the manga, where someone says a character is "heavily" restricted one time, but not in another to form a canonical definition for "heavy". So while I agree that what your talking about is more serious restrictions, I'd also qualify them as more than "heavy"-restrictions; more like crippling-restrictions, since the restrictions are leaving no way for the one restricted to win against the opposition.

I think Itachi can win despite the restrictions placed on him here, however I think the restrictions make his odds of winning a decent bit smaller than they would be w/o these restrictions, which is why I'd consider them "heavy"


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## Thunder (Oct 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I think this just comes down to how you define "heavy", which is ultimately opinion based, as we have no scale given to use in the manga, where someone says a character is "heavily" restricted one time, but not in another to form a canonical definition for "heavy". So while I agree that what your talking about is more serious restrictions, I'd also qualify them as more than "heavy"-restrictions; more like crippling-restrictions, since the restrictions are leaving no way for the one restricted to win against the opposition.



Pretty much. Comes down to how you use "heavy" in this context. I like to keep things simple by describing restrictions as "heavy" or "not heavy". But there's nothing wrong with adding more options.



> I think Itachi can win despite the restrictions placed on him here, however I think the restrictions make his odds of winning a decent bit smaller than they would be w/o these restrictions, which is why I'd consider them "heavy"


Well _any_ stipulations the OP thinks up could reduce a character's odds of winning. These are hypothetical bouts after all and none of us can be one-hundred percent certain how they'd go if Kishimoto were in control. 

Starting a character at a short or long distance could have more of an impact on the match than we may think, for example.

But yeah, I'm just rambling. Fair enough.


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## JuicyG (Oct 7, 2014)

Have we come to a conclusion yet ? lmao


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## StickaStick (Oct 7, 2014)

Quikdraw7777 said:


> *1st Bolded*
> Sooooo, one of Danzou's casual attacks (amped up by extra wind from a summon), Is more effective than that of literally *THE*  strongest concentrated technique of one of the men with *THE*  most chakra in the history of Naruto? IF Sandiame is able to open up Susano'o with Hellstab Hand Itachi is dead; he'll just keep the momentum going and put his entire arm right clean through his body.
> 
> 
> Yeeeeah.......I'm going to have my doubts on that...


Never said it was impossible (In fact I think it could), I just don't see how such a conclusion can be reached based on a comparison to a completely different kind of attack. BTW, Danzo's combo with Baku with used against Sasuke's V3 Susanoo, not the complete one.




> *2nd Bolded:*
> SO you're telling me that Ei's Raiga Bomb and Raiton Chop can snap the bones on Sasuke's incomplete Susano'o like twigs, but a *natural* Bolt of lightning - which Zetsu explicitly stated exceeded that of human capability as far as destructive power - couldn't do a damn thing to Itachi's incomplete version?
> 
> 
> ...


Where did I say Kirin couldn't do anything against the incomplete version?

Anyway, even relatively small incremental increases can make a significant difference in the aggregate. If you keeping adding those increases from V1 to V2 to V3 to V4 it quickly adds up. So yes, it would not surprise me if Kirin could completely shatter V1 or even V2 but have little noticeable effect on V4.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 7, 2014)

StickaStick said:


> "Sick" Itachi = Canon Alive Itachi. Canon Alive Itachi in the examples you cited gets murked.


We assume Itachi is healthy unless it is specified that he is sick. His illness was just plot nerf, so that his loss to Sasuke would be somewhat beliavable, but hey, if you want Itachi to lose this badly why don't you specify that in the op ?
But bad news for you,  Itachi being sick wouldn't effect this outcome, when a single amaterasu is more than enough to do the job and even sick Itachi can use that without having any problems.



> It isn't only his sickness btw. Even back when he used Tsukuyomi on Kakashi there were drawbacks. And again after he used Ama on Jiraiya's toad thing. Using MS has always had it's drawbacks for Itachi.


It was part 1. 
In part 1 Kakashi got hospitalized after he used sharingan more than 3 minutes. 

Plus, Itachi used MS 3 times that day, as well as other stuff and he didn't keel over and cough blood.



> Impossible, since he also had to keep tabs on Sasuke.


Keeping tabs on Sasuke doesn't change the fact  that Kabuto used his strongest jutsus and hit Itachi as hard as he could.



> Sure there is. He can, you know, not get hit by them. Something even Hebi Sasuke was able to do after Itachi tried to set his wing on fire. Same deal with Susanoo + Totsuka.


Unless Itachi is trying to keep sandaime alive, like he was doing with Sasuke, he hits Sandaime with Amaterasu and kills him.

Did you read the aftermath of Itachi vs Sasuke ? I doubt you did.

What do you mean Same deal with Susano'o and totsuka ? Are you suggesting that Sandaime can dodge Totsuka indefinitely ? Itachi can never get a chance to strike back or counter attack ?

But thats absolute horseshit. If Sandaime Raikage attacks Itachi, doesn't that give Itachi to counter attack him ? Like how sasuke did against A, and how Naruto did against Sandaime Raikage ?



> How he attacks Susanoo depends on whether Hellstab can piece V4. If not, Sandaime can wait Itachi out until his reliance on Susanoo exhausts his chakra.


If Sandaime stays back, Itachi turns off Susano'o and takes a nap and replenish his chakra until Sandaime decides to attack again.
He can activate Susano'o faster than a lightning can strike, so no, he doesn't need to keep it on all times. He is smarter than Sandaime. Do you think Itachi will go "omg sandaime is staying back he'll outlast me eventhough it is completely OOC what am I gonna do I fucking lost this " ?
I don't think he will.



> What does it matter if it only went into effect at the end? It was their only method of winning.


My point is, "genjutsu" isn't something that is essential for Itachi's survival.



> Not that it matters, but what exactly could they done unrestricted?


Fuck is shit up ? 



> Tsukuyomi, Ama, and Totsuka are all useless against Kabuto


I am pretty sure Totsuka would oneshot him but hey thats probably crazy me right ? 
When Itachi and Sasuke worked an offensive strategy together, Kabuto ended up getting hit twice. If they had killing intent, they would have killed him right there.

I think the whole point of Kabuto repeating constantly that Itachi & Sasuke weren't *allowed* to kill him was to point out that they could have if they wanted to.



> You take away their powers, and Kishi writes new ones in. These characters are all going to be in their spot spot regardless.


Same goes for Itachi then. You have to tell this to Turrin.



> It's also a bit disingenuous to take away all of these characters crutches and not take away Itachi's crutch, which is MS. Do that and he becomes fodder like everyone else. In some cases worse.


This has nothing to do with what we are discussing here.
I suggest you re-read Turrin's and my posts to get a better idea about our debate.



Quikdraw7777 said:


> My point?
> 
> Is that Susano'o (aside from PERFECT form) is not infallible. Danzou revealed that, with a powerful enough attack concentrated on a single spot, one can tear open an area on the jutsu.


I don't get the deal with such generalizations. "X was able to do this, so can Y" is not a valid argument unless X & Y have similar arsenals.

Danzo slashed through Susano'o's exposed back, and the only reason why Sasuke was exposed is because he was being pinned down by Danzo's summon.

How is Raikage going to get behind Itachi and destroy his back before Itachi can retaliate ? 

How is Danzo's fuuton slash comparable to Raikage's hellstab ?



> Hell, even when Itachi used it to brace himself against Kirin, it didn't compelety negate the attack -as evidenced when Itachi was laying face down in the rubble when the dust cleared.


Kirin is manitudes stronger and faster than anything Sandaime can dishout and Itachi probably didn't have time to use the Stage 4 to defend from it.
In fact, we were shown the stage 2 around Itachi after he got up, so I am assuming that was what he used to defend himself with.



> And you say "Amaterasu will end it quickly"....
> Since when did the technique ignore the durability of it's targets?


Since when anything withstood Amaterasu with its durability ?
Don't waste your precious time. Because it didn't happen in the manga. 
Juubi had to rip of a chunk of its body to survive, Raikage had to chop off his arm to survive despite his arm being grazed by a small enton(Sasuke didn't hit him with Amaterasu). 
FRS tanking cerebrus got engulfed and erased within seconds. Hachibee shared a similar fate.



> It's not Jinton, man. Itachi would still have to elude this guy IF he does land the jutsu, which is going to be difficult to do when he winces from the pain of casting it - JUST like he did with Sasuke EVERY time he used it.


The fight is over the instant Raikage is hit with Amaterasu. He will be engulfed within a second or two and he won't be able to see anything, he won't be able to do anything because of pain and flames eating through his flesh and his nerves and eyes and everything.

Any other scenario can be classified as a "Chuck Norris does X" kind of joke.



> And do yourself a favor and forget about that Sword of Totsuka. If it's a physical strike not on par with a bijuudama, it's not even worth enough for the Raikage to pay attention to. You know that.



What ? Why does it have to be on par with a bijuu dama ? How do you know its not on par with a bijuudama ? Is hellstab on par with a bijuudama ?


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## IchLiebe (Oct 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> We assume Itachi is healthy unless it is specified that he is sick. His illness was just plot nerf, so that his loss to Sasuke would be somewhat beliavable, but hey, if you want Itachi to lose this badly why don't you specify that in the op ?
> But bad news for you,  Itachi being sick wouldn't effect this outcome, when a single amaterasu is more than enough to do the job and even sick Itachi can use that without having any problems.



No we don't. We assume sick Itachi because we use the last living version of a character if not specified. Healthy Itachi is fanfic, we don't know jack shit about him. Should I assume Prime Hiruzen in Hiruzen thread unless specified? No, that's fucking stupid.



> Unless Itachi is trying to keep sandaime alive, like he was doing with Sasuke, he hits Sandaime with Amaterasu and kills him.



Ei fought while on fire, you think Sandaime can't.



> If Sandaime stays back, Itachi turns off Susano'o and takes a nap and replenish his chakra until Sandaime decides to attack again.
> He can activate Susano'o faster than a lightning can strike, so no, he doesn't need to keep it on all times. He is smarter than Sandaime. Do you think Itachi will go "omg sandaime is staying back he'll outlast me eventhough it is completely OOC what am I gonna do I fucking lost this " ?
> I don't think he will.



Sasuke bragged about kirin for 10+pages. Itachi didn't wait for Kirin to come down before activating it. If so then Kabuto would never have hit him.



> I am pretty sure Totsuka would oneshot him but hey thats probably crazy me right ?



FRS didn't do anything to him. I don't see totsuka piercing him, as it's feats are lacking.



> I don't get the deal with such generalizations. "X was able to do this, so can Y" is not a valid argument unless X & Y have similar arsenals.



It's called comparisons. If Naruto's rasengan hurts Sakura, Sasuke's chidori will hurt her.



> Danzo slashed through Susano'o's exposed back, and the only reason why Sasuke was exposed is because he was being pinned down by Danzo's summon.



And Raikages attack has hype beyond belief. A FRS, and bijuudama didn't hurt him while his own attack did. Danzo's jutsu isn't that strong.



> How is Raikage going to get behind Itachi and destroy his back before Itachi can retaliate ?



By being faster.



> How is Danzo's fuuton slash comparable to Raikage's hellstab ?



Being weaker. Would you put it on the same level as KCM FRS or bijuudama?



> Kirin is manitudes stronger and faster than anything Sandaime can dishout and Itachi probably didn't have time to use the Stage 4 to defend from it.



Itachi had over 10 pages to prep for it.



> In fact, we were shown the stage 2 around Itachi after he got up, so I am assuming that was what he used to defend himself with.



Itachi can use yata mirror in stage 2.



> Since when anything withstood Amaterasu with its durability ?
> Don't waste your precious time. Because it didn't happen in the manga.
> Juubi had to rip of a chunk of its body to survive, Raikage had to chop off his arm to survive despite his arm being grazed by a small enton(Sasuke didn't hit him with Amaterasu).
> FRS tanking cerebrus got engulfed and erased within seconds. Hachibee shared a similar fate.



He just has to live long enough to kill ITachi.

will finish later.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 7, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> No we don't. We assume sick Itachi because we use the last living version of a character if not specified. Healthy Itachi is fanfic, we don't know jack shit about him. Should I assume Prime Hiruzen in Hiruzen thread unless specified? No, that's fucking stupid.


It isn't even remotely the same thing.
We've seen Itachi without the effects of his disease after he came back as an Edo. Remove Edo health/chakra regen and that is healthy Itachi.

We haven't seen what Prime Hiruzen is, nor we have any idea how powerful he was.



> Ei fought while on fire, you think Sandaime can't.


Ei's hand was lit on fire with enton, after he briefly came in contact with it. Amaterasu wasn't cast on him.
Unless it happens the same to Sandaime, no, he can't fight while on fire 



> Sasuke bragged about kirin for 10+pages. Itachi didn't wait for Kirin to come down before activating it. If so then Kabuto would never have hit him.


If I point a gun @ you and tell that I am about to shoot you, you still can't react to the bullet.

Kabuto hit Itachi because of 2 reasons, 

1 : Itachi lowered his guard deliberately,
2 : It was a surprise attack. You can't react to something that you can't see or feel coming. 
Based on this example, I can safely conclude that Itachi can consistently blitz Nagato regardless of any circumstance.



> FRS didn't do anything to him. I don't see totsuka piercing him, as it's feats are lacking.


What is FRS's best feat ?



> It's called comparisons. If Naruto's rasengan hurts Sakura, Sasuke's chidori will hurt her.


Lol'd.



> And Raikages attack has hype beyond belief. A FRS, and bijuudama didn't hurt him while his own attack did. Danzo's jutsu isn't that strong.


When did a bijuudama hit him ? 
Also different attacks have different properties. Bijuudama is explosive damage, high armor defenses are more durable against explosive type attacks but can be pierced by thrusting ones.



> By being faster.


He doesn't possess the necessary speed to be able to do that.



> Being weaker. Would you put it on the same level as KCM FRS or bijuudama?


KCM FRS and Bijuudama aren't on the same level.
Also I'd like to see evidence that Danzo's fuuton is weaker than FRS.



> Itachi had over 10 pages to prep for it.


Prep what ? 



> Itachi can use yata mirror in stage 2.


No he can't. He can use it on stage 3.




> He just has to live long enough to kill ITachi.


Then he has to sit back and wait for Itachi to die of old age or his illness or whatever the fuck is going to kill him but Sandaime doesn't possess the capability of doing so.



> will finish later.


Don't bother. You've already lost.


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## JuicyG (Oct 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What is FRS's best feat ?
> 
> Also I'd like to see evidence that Danzo's fuuton is weaker than FRS.




The fact that a *base* Naruto's FRS severly damages the body at the cellular level & has so many individual strikes that even the sharingan wielders (Yes, your precious Itachi too) is unable to count them all. 

[1]

Again, even in base the FRS severs all nerve channels in the body, leaving the target unable to move after being struck. They also attack the entire chakra circulatory system, which cannot be repaired by any form of medical ninjutsu whatsoever.

[1]

Now it was KCM Naruto that was tossing FRS's at the 3rd Raikage, who was tanking it or dodging it. Its safe to say the FRS is more powerful than Danzo's fuuton strikes.


Also the FRS was able to stun the 9 tails...
[1]


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## Quikdraw7777 (Oct 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It isn't even remotely the same thing.
> We've seen Itachi without the effects of his disease after he came back as an Edo. Remove Edo health/chakra regen and that is healthy Itachi.
> 
> We haven't seen what Prime Hiruzen is, nor we have any idea how powerful he was.
> ...


 

....you do realize that if Itachi doesn't bother to keep the maximum level of his Susano'o active - he dies. Ei was able to smack the shit out of Sasuke ( can even see the bruise on his neck)  even when he was enveloped within his Susanoo's rib cage. Nothing less than Itachi's strongest form will cushion him from the One Finger Nuktie - and that's provided he's facing him (Yata Shield assistance).


And again, how is Amaterasu so easy to land?

Every target Itachi has used it against was either stationary or didn't have their attnetion on him - two circumstances which will be nonexistent now that he has a man clad in Raiton Armor going mercilessly for his head and his alone. The Sandiame isn't exactly slow enough where Itachi can "pick & choose" where he lands the technique.....that's just foolishness to assume it's that easy for him.


It's either 

○ Battle of Attrition

OR

○ Itachi sacrifices an incredible amount of chakra attempting to land an "incapacitaing" blow with Amaterasu. I mean, afterall, we've seen how much Ei bitched about the pain of Amaterasu being unbearable and making him unable to fight right?

The man almost went on to kill Sasuke after he was struck - who was clutching his eye in pain.
Same case with Ei's father and Sasuke's brother.


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## JuicyG (Oct 7, 2014)

Still the same


Itachi misses with first ama and lands second as Raikage pierces susano with hell stab and they both K.O


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## IchLiebe (Oct 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It isn't even remotely the same thing.
> We've seen Itachi without the effects of his disease after he came back as an Edo. Remove Edo health/chakra regen and that is healthy Itachi.
> 
> We haven't seen what Prime Hiruzen is, nor we have any idea how powerful he was.



You're so full of shit, it's ridiculous. Edo Health and chakra regen is EDO ITACHI. That's what he had. We can't just magically say, "well take away everything edo gives you and that's healthy Itachi." .That's like people saying take Gai's weights off and he blitz's. We don't know if he has weights on, but if he does we've never seen him without them.

Healthy Itachi is fanfic bullshit the Itachifans made so Itachi could be better. GTFO with that shit. We assume last living incarnation unless stated otherwise. Otherwise we'd argue about whether we were using part I or part II incarnations of every goddamn thread.



> Ei's hand was lit on fire with enton, after he briefly came in contact with it. Amaterasu wasn't cast on him.
> Unless it happens the same to Sandaime, no, he can't fight while on fire



Why not? Ei showed no signs of discomfort and his dad's durability is leagues above his.



> If I point a gun @ you and tell that I am about to shoot you, you still can't react to the bullet.



No, I react before you fucking shoot.



> Kabuto hit Itachi because of 2 reasons,
> 
> 1 : Itachi lowered his guard deliberately,
> 2 : It was a surprise attack. You can't react to something that you can't see or feel coming.
> Based on this example, I can safely conclude that Itachi can consistently blitz Nagato regardless of any circumstance.



1. HORSE SHIT. PROVE IT.
2. He was looking right at Kabuto, what the fucking happened to pre-cog?



> What is FRS's best feat ?



The fucking destruction it did in the Kakuzu fight, SM FRS fucking disintegrated a body by destroying it's FUCKING cells. KCM chakra shroud on others make their attacks powered up 3x. and they have one tail. Naruto's got it all so you can imagine. What's Danzo's best feat?



> Lol'd.



I know...smart shit makes you laugh because you're too used to Itachi fanfic bullshit.



> When did a bijuudama hit him ?
> Also different attacks have different properties. Bijuudama is explosive damage, high armor defenses are more durable against explosive type attacks but can be pierced by thrusting ones.



Hachibi thought his bijuudama gave Raikage his scar.

Itachi's susanoo is high armor defense thus can be pierced by hellstab.



> He doesn't possess the necessary speed to be able to do that.



Itachi doesn't have the speed to hit Raikage.



> KCM FRS and Bijuudama aren't on the same level.
> Also I'd like to see evidence that Danzo's fuuton is weaker than FRS.



FRS has affinity advantage against him. I'd like to see Danzo's fuuton feats, I've said the FRS feats and will post scans if you don't remember them.



> Prep what ?



Susanoo for Kirin.



> No he can't. He can use it on stage 3.



Stage 1. Stage two it appears.




> Then he has to sit back and wait for Itachi to die of old age or his illness or whatever the fuck is going to kill him but Sandaime doesn't possess the capability of doing so.



Hebi Sasuke ran away from amaterasu for 5 seconds, Raikage does the same except he fucking obiliterates Itachi.


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## Blaze Release (Oct 8, 2014)

Not sure where Turrin or others have gotten the idea that restricting genjutsu is enough to hamper Itachi.
DB scores along with his other ninjutsu feats are enough to say he is equally good at ninjutsu and taijutsu, sure we didn't see alot of this but we saw enough.



Anyway there are so many ways for Itachi to land amaterasu or any other attack on sandaime or other speedy ninja's. His crow summonings or karasu bunshin's when disperse attack the user and temporarily block their sight. We have seen this many times. This is enough time combined with his handspeed to launch attacks/feints if needed. 

This could easily cover amaterasu's weakness which is the prep time.

Secondly it appears the prep time for amaterasu is only there for the first initial amaterasu. Once the first prep is done, an amaterasu user has never needed to continuously need prep for each amaterasu they use in a fight.

Third is the Transcription seal that is available for MS users and Itachi has already shown feats of being able to use it, funny enough with amaterasu as well.
Link removed

With this form of seal the only prep needed is the one needed to seal the technique, however that doesn't take long as itachi merely poked sasuke's head for it. Anyway the technique once the intended target has been given or the requirement is met, it catches the intended target by surprise leaving them with little chance of escape. Obito who appears to have good reflexes was caught in it as there was absolutely no hint given.

Anyway we have seen that amaterasu can affect a shinobi even in their raiton amour, enough for EI to cut his harm. Itachi may not be as good with amaterasu as sasuke, but he has shown signs of being able to control it and make it spread, as well as extinguishing it. WIth one good amaterasu which i believe he should be able to make it land, he can then make it spread instead of another amaterasu's blast.

Finally sandaime's body is useless here. He may be durable but those are agains't impact based techniques. Like Kidoumaru's durable webs, a technique that burns like amaterasu or acid should do the trick. Durability isn't saving him from turning to ash

Don't even believe Sandaime's speed is enough to trouble itachi or dodge amaterasu.
Itachi mid diff imo


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## Bonly (Oct 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Which again is represented by Sasuke being able to evade Ei's strike while Juugo could barely block it.



Glad you agree




> R1 Ei and Sandaime were compared on the basis of "normal"-speed. We never got to see Sandaime's Shunshin speed. So while I won't take a position that Sandaime can certainly blitz Itachi w/ Shunshin, I'm not going to entirely rule out the possibility ether. Though the match starting at 25m w/ knowledge should give Itachi ample oppertunity to pull out Susano'o, if a blitz were to be an issue.



Glad you agree. 



> I don't see Yata as an obvious answer for reasons I expressed at the bottom of my last post.



Then you're on you're own.



> Jutsu activation speed doesn't bend space & time. It's not like Itachi can suddenly teleport 20m away when he creates a Bushin. If Itachi creates a Bushin, the Bushin will be made right next to or in-front of him, in which case Itachi's only avenue to cloak himself or the bushin is hiding in it's shadow. Again he doesn't have a jutsu to doton underground, teleport away from the bushin's location, etc...



Jutsu activation speed allows him to quickly distractions to help. Itachi was fast enough to be able to create a clone right in front of Hebi Sasuke's face without him noticing. After pulling out some Shurikens Itachi was able to use a Suiton and get a exploding clone out when there was none in sight. Itachi can summon crows to be in the  Sandaime's LoS which can buy Itachi a second or two to make clones. Making clones(crows or shadow) can split up the Sandaime's focus between the two(or more depending on how many he make) Itachi's if they run if different directions mean Itachi can gain some distance if The Sandaime chose the wrong one which means Itachi could make another clone or two(crows or Shadow) to buy more time to gain some distance. While his jutsu activation speed "bend space & time" and "It's not like Itachi can suddenly teleport 20m away when he creates a Bushin", Itachi can still use his fast activation speed to help gain some distance with tools he has. He may not do it instantly but he has the tools to do.



> I would think more LOS blockers, when Itachi's avenue for victory is suppose to be Amaterasu, would not be a good thing.



Depends on how he uses it, if he made a big Ama in the general spot then the LoS might not be to much of a problem though it all depends on how he uses them.



> Can he hide with them, sure, if he can escape Sandaime, which considering Sandaime's speed is a major problem.



Glad you agree.



> I don't see how something that is completely ineffectual to Sandaime will distract him. He doesn't have deal with the crows, he can just ignore them and shunshin right towards Itachi.



They can block his LoS for a second which can take his attention off of Itachi for a second which can allow Itachi to make a clone or two which could give Itachi the chance to gain some distance.




> I already answered it, he was not able to do it; him and Sasuke combined were able to.



Concession accepted.



> There have been plenty of times where Itachi hasn't seen a jutsu before. And it's not like Itachi pulls knowledge about things that it would be extremely contrived for him to know about. Like if Itachi magically knew about 100% FRS, despite it not being completed until after he died, than I'd take this claim more seriously. *Otherwise it just seems like I want my character to win, but I don't know how, therefore I'll rest my argument on divine intervention.*



No shit, here's not an all seeing god(yet ) so of course there are jutsu he hasn't seen. Then you either haven't been paying attention or you're being a bit slow here if you think the bold so I'm going to lay it out clearly for you and maybe you'll get it this time.


*Spoiler*: __ 




-Itachi is Kishi's favorite

-We don't know if Itachi does or doesn't know about how the pot works.

-You said "By universal I was talking about considering many different scenario's. However if we want to talk about the likelihood of someone knowing about how the treasure tools work, it doesn't seem like many outside Kumokaguru do, and even inside Kumogakuru a top ninja like Darui did not."

- Are with me so far? 

- Now so far nothing has been hinted or said that the Sage's tools were unknown to most outside of Kumo as well as in Kumo.

- What we do know is that there are history books with info on these tools. What we do know is that they was using the tools when they left the village. What we do know is that Tsunade knows about yet Darui an a top ninja inside Kumo didn't know about.

- With that being the case that people had the tools listed in history books. We know others outside of Kumo has seen and/or heard about the tools. We know that there is a possiblity that info can be written down or passed along other people. We know that, that means there's a possibility that Itachi has a few ways to know about the pot.    

- Now I'm going to quote myself on what I said before when he talked about the pot. "whether you like it or not Kishi has a high chance to pull something out his ass for Itachi(talking about knowledge in this case if it wasn't clear the first time around). It's that simple, *not saying he does or he doesn't* just pointing that out if you wanna talk about "likelihood".

- So now we get to here. We know there are a few possible ways for info on the tools to be spread. We know Itachi has shown to be a knowledge person.  We know that I have outright said that I'm not saying Itachi does or doesn't actually have knowledge on the pot. We know Itachi is Kishi favorite. So how is me bringing up that there's a chance Itachi knows about the pot due to possible knowledge and Kishi's wanking result in it being a case of "Otherwise it just seems *like I want my character to win, but I don't know how, therefore I'll rest my argument on divine intervention*"?






> And also to be frank the character that is more likely to pull off additional unseen Jutsu or knowledge would be Sandaime, because he's had a-lot less panel time to show what he's got, and he even has an ability like Kurokaminari that we never got to seem him use in his very brief display. So if one wants to go down this road, it should be Sandaime getting the benefit of the doubt more than Itachi.



Nothing but irrelevant shit. Don't care about the the likeliness of someone pulling off unseen jutsu, not even sure how you got to the unseen jutsu of these two. Pay attention and stay on track, we were talking about the "likelihood" of  knowledge on the pot, not about people using unseen jutsu.




> Which brings me back to asking why? And no you can't just say Yata, because as I detailed, Yata's nature change ability is not sufficient to guarantee it's ability to block FRS, let alone Nukite.



You didn't detail anything good enough to make me think otherwise so like I said before it brings you back to that question, not me. 



> It's fine if you just have a feeling it would, but be straight-forward about the fact that this is based on nothing besides going with you gut.



I am being straight forward, DB and manga(if you wanna look at Black Zetsu ) is what I base it on.


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## StickaStick (Oct 8, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> We assume Itachi is healthy unless it is specified that he is sick. His illness was just plot nerf, so that his loss to Sasuke would be somewhat beliavable, but hey, if you want Itachi to lose this badly why don't you specify that in the op ?


No we don't, because you nor I nor anyone else knows what a "Healthy" Itachi looks like. All we can do is speculate; something his fans readily enjoy because it gives them an inch where they can take a couple miles.

Itachi's loss to Sasuke was believable because Itachi tanked the fight; his sickness honestly wasn't needed although Kishi threw it in there for some reason, IDK. 



> But bad news for you,  Itachi being sick wouldn't effect this outcome, when a single amaterasu is more than enough to do the job and even sick Itachi can use that without having any problems.


You can only say it wouldn't effect the outcome if you presume he can hit Sandaime with Ama in his first few attempts. If not, then his illness becomes a significant determining factor in the match-up.



> It was part 1.
> In part 1 Kakashi got hospitalized after he used sharingan more than 3 minutes.


lol

This was the closest to a canon "healthy" Itachi we've seen and you want to chalk it up to PTI. Sorry, you don't get to decide what counts and what doesn't. This isn't like Itachi's statement towards Jiraiya which can be interpreted in a myriad of ways. There's nothing to suggest that the drawbacks he received in PTI from using his MS have been retconned. In fact, his DB state of a 2.5 in stamina further supports this. 



> Plus, Itachi used MS 3 times that day, as well as other stuff and he didn't keel over and cough blood.


He still suffered noticeable drawbacks.



> Keeping tabs on Sasuke doesn't change the fact  that Kabuto used his strongest jutsus and hit Itachi as hard as he could.


It does make a difference because without Sasuke there Kabuto's method of attaching Itachi may have been different. Despite that, Kabuto still fucked up Itachi several times, including one or two of them where he needed saving from Sasuke.



> Unless Itachi is trying to keep sandaime alive, like he was doing with Sasuke, he hits Sandaime with Amaterasu and kills him.


Why can't he avoid Itachi's LoS? FTR, Ama may appear instantaneously, but its activation isn't. There's a delay between when Itachi summons the black flames and when they actually appear. This is the opportunity for someone fast enough--someone like Sandaime--to Shunshin away out of the direct spot with Itachi is summoning the black flames. 



> Did you read the aftermath of Itachi vs Sasuke ? I doubt you did.


Did you pay attention to the context of the fight, or see just what you want to see? Itachi wasn't trying to kill Sasuke but he was still attempting to set his wing on fire, likely feeling it was safe because he probably knew Sasuke absorbed Oro and could use Oral Rebirth. The idea that Itachi intentionally tried to miss Sasuke as he was Shunshin'ing doesn't make any sense if we consider that Itachi was trying not to give away that fact that he was tanking the fight.



> What do you mean Same deal with Susano'o and totsuka ? Are you suggesting that Sandaime can dodge Totsuka indefinitely ? Itachi can never get a chance to strike back or counter attack ?


He could; but there's also as good a chance Sandaime can continuously evade it as well. 



> But thats absolute horseshit. If Sandaime Raikage attacks Itachi, doesn't that give Itachi to counter attack him ? Like how sasuke did against A, and how Naruto did against Sandaime Raikage ?


If Sandaime attacks Itachi he very well could counter-attack, but at that point he might already be tearing through Itachi's Susanoo with Hellstab and at that point the best Itachi can hope for is a draw by landing an Ama.



> If Sandaime stays back, Itachi turns off Susano'o and takes a nap and replenish his chakra until Sandaime decides to attack again.
> He can activate Susano'o faster than a lightning can strike, so no, he doesn't need to keep it on all times. He is smarter than Sandaime. Do you think Itachi will go "omg sandaime is staying back he'll outlast me eventhough it is completely OOC what am I gonna do I fucking lost this " ?
> I don't think he will.


By wait out I didn't' necessarily mean stay back. In fact, a better method of waiting him out in my estimation would be staying close enough to force Itachi to use Susanno which would also allow him to better stay under the possibility of Totsuka strikes and stay out of his LoS for Ama.



> My point is, "genjutsu" isn't something that is essential for Itachi's survival.


Fair enough.



> Fuck is shit up ?


I'd favor DSM Kabuto fucking his shit up more than the other way around.



> I am pretty sure Totsuka would oneshot him but hey thats probably crazy me right ?


Well, for one, I doubt it could catch Kabuto since he isn't a stationary target and Totsuka has no speed feats to speak of in terms of actually moving around the sword. Second, if he does get hit I don't see why he couldn't just use his version of Suika no Jutsu to escape.



> When Itachi and Sasuke worked an offensive strategy together, Kabuto ended up getting hit twice. If they had killing intent, they would have killed him right there.


If Kabuto had killing intent he uses Mugen Onsa and impales Sasuke with a Muki Tensei; and with no one to break Itachi out of the genjutsu he easily rewrites the ET command. Or something like that.



> I think the whole point of Kabuto repeating constantly that Itachi & Sasuke weren't *allowed* to kill him was to point out that they could have if they wanted to.


I think the fact that the manga demonstrated that Kabuto could have killed Sasuke and then rewrote Itachi's command but didn't because he wanted to keep Sasuke alive was to point out that he could have if he wanted to.



> Same goes for Itachi then. You have to tell this to Turrin.
> 
> This has nothing to do with what we are discussing here.
> I suggest you re-read Turrin's and my posts to get a better idea about our debate.


My bad. I have no idea what you guys are talking about so I'll leave this part alone.


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## Turrin (Oct 8, 2014)

@Bonly

I don't know how to proceed with this convo if I present manga-cannon that says taking on the opposing nature is not enough by itself to defend a jutsu, and yet you still say it is. You might as well be arguing Omoi's raiton enhanced sword could block Naruto's Chou Oddoma FRS, just because it's enchanted with the opposing affinity. So until you can get passed that or show some willingness to expand on your position beyond that, there is no point  even going further with your other points.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 8, 2014)

The Sandaime goes down to a clone feint and amaterasu imo.

A clone feint isn't necessary to hit the raikage with Amaterasu it's just IC.

I think the Sandaime is at a similar level of speed with Ei in V1. 

Ei, who was knowledgeable of Amaterasu, did not think V1 was enough to dodge Amaterasu and compensated by immediately charging to V2 speed[1]. Since Sandaime hasn't demonstrated the ability to go V2 he gets toasted.


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## Bonly (Oct 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @Bonly
> 
> I don't know how to proceed with this convo if I present manga-cannon that says taking on the opposing nature is not enough by itself to defend a jutsu, and yet you still say it is. You might as well be arguing Omoi's raiton enhanced sword could block Naruto's Chou Oddoma FRS, just because it's enchanted with the opposing affinity. So until you can get passed that or show some willingness to expand on your position beyond that, there is no point  even going further with your other points.



Wrong. I'm not saying that the opposite nature of a jutsu is enough to defend from another jutsu on the basis of it being an opposite nature alone. I'm saying that with the hype the Yata Mirror has it should be on a high enough level to where it being the opposite nature should stop an FRS and protect Itachi and so far in your two replies after mentioning it you haven't brought anything to the table to say why the Yata isn't at a high level to do such. So I can't "get pass it" when you don't bring anything to the table to have me consider otherwise


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## StickaStick (Oct 8, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> The Sandaime goes down to a clone feint and amaterasu imo.
> 
> A clone feint isn't necessary to hit the raikage with Amaterasu it's just IC.
> 
> ...



Ei specifically references MS in that scan. 

Honestly, Ei would have upped his RYN in response to any ability he considered a significant threat, as he did MS here. Increased speed and durability isn't just an Ama counter, it's catch-all kind of counter. 

Also, Sandaime doesn't need V2 speed in order to avoid Ama--he just needs to be fast enough to stay out of Itachi's view of where he's casting the black flames. Something even Hebi Sasuke was able to do momentarily.


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## Turrin (Oct 8, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Wrong. I'm not saying that the opposite nature of a jutsu is enough to defend from another jutsu on the basis of it being an opposite nature alone. I'm saying that with the hype the Yata Mirror has it should be on a high enough level to where it being the opposite nature should stop an FRS and protect Itachi and so far in your two replies after mentioning it you haven't brought anything to the table to say why the Yata isn't at a high level to do such. So I can't "get pass it" when you don't bring anything to the table to have me consider otherwise


What hype? Are you talking about the hyperbolic DB/Zetsu statement which is very clearly false? If so than Sandaime's ultimate sword that can pierce through the ultimate shield is equally hyperbolic and has more feats to back it up.


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## Bonly (Oct 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> What hype? Are you talking about the hyperbolic DB/Zetsu statement which is very clearly false? If so than Sandaime's ultimate sword that can pierce through the ultimate shield is equally hyperbolic and has more feats to back it up.







"."

And then there's Black Zetsu's statement.

Now obviously I don't think it'll block any and all attacks but with the way Kishi is portraying the Yata Mirror in both the manga and the databook it's has me believe it's one suppose to be viewed as one hell of a defense on at/near the top of the level when it comes defending against the five basic elemental jutsu.


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## Trojan (Oct 9, 2014)

Did not the child see itachi's Susanoo, and yet he stated that Gaara's defence is the strongest. @>@


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## Ersa (Oct 9, 2014)

Gaara's defense was shattered by Yasaka Magatama.

It's about as strong as Gaara is which is not very.


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## Trojan (Oct 9, 2014)

So, since it's the strongest according to the child, we can assume that Yata mirror can't even take an attack from the Magatamas either?


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## Ersa (Oct 9, 2014)

Not really since Yasaka is explosive tag level and the Mirror already survived that.


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## Turrin (Oct 9, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Now obviously I don't think it'll block any and all attacks but with the way Kishi is portraying the Yata Mirror in both the manga and the databook it's has me believe it's one suppose to be viewed as one hell of a defense on at/near the top of the level when it comes defending against the five basic elemental jutsu.


How is what you posted any different than this:



> NINJUTSU; Saikou Zettai Bougyo: Shukaku no Tate (Absolute Defense of Solidity Ultimate*: Shukaku's Shield)
> User: Gaara
> Defensive; Close range; Rank: none
> 
> ...



Or this:



> NINJUTSU; Suna no Tate (Sand Shield)
> User: Gaara
> Defensive; Close range; Rank: none
> 
> ...




So based on the same logic CE-Gaara's basic Sand Shield would also block FRS and Nukite


Or actually would the world just explode if FRS made contact with CE-Gaara's Sand shield, since according to the DB 50%-FRS reduces everything to nothing,_ "↑The tornado-like gale resounds with a thunderous roar!! Afterwards, nothing remains but the ruins of the enemy and the silence after the storm."_

Edit: In reality these hype statements "loosely" apply to the point in the manga they are made. For example back in the CE Prelims when DBI was released, given the techniques/abilities we'd seen up till that point Gaara's absolute defense could dam near block anything. Same deal with Gaara's Saikou Zettai Bougyo: Shukaku no Tate in the SRA arc, given what we'd seen of Jutsu/abilities up till that point it could dam near block everything. Same deal with Tsunade's Gensis of Rebirth making her unkillable in battle, up till that point it could dam near enable Tsunade to survive everything. And so on.

However these statements don't continue to apply, in future arcs where new more powerful abilities are revealed. Many things from the Sannin-Arc and Rescue-Sasuke Arc, were shown strong enough to triumph CE-Gaara's absolute defense. Many abilities revealed in successive arcs after the SRA-Arc, would triumph Gaara's Shukaku no Tate's defense. Many Jutsu revealed in successive arcs would kill Tsunade, despite Gensis of Rebirth, in-fact Kishi felt the need to give her a higher level version in PII via Byakugo

Yata Mirror is no different, it could probably block dam near everything we'd seen up to the point that it was revealed, but that doesn't continue to apply to more powerful techniques revealed in successive arcs. That's why I'd consider it plausible that based on Yata's hype it could block 50%-FRS despite it having nowhere near the feats to support it. But the hype is irrelevant to me when discussing 100%-FRS and Nukite, two vastly more powerful Jutsu revealed in successive arcs, that no longer fall under Yata's sphere of hype.


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## Trojan (Oct 9, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Not really since Yasaka is explosive tag level and the Mirror already survived that.



mmm, that's a good proof. @>@


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## Hachibi (Oct 9, 2014)

Surprised this thread is still kicking.

Hussain, you are a brilliant necromancer


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## Icegaze (Oct 9, 2014)

I don't get how this thread is still up and running 
I would agree with all those who have said the sandaime can tank AMA and keep going 
But if he was really superior to itachi why remove genjutsu people ?

Itachi susanoo V4 should be able to tank nikute or even V3
Yata doesn't need feats to counter an elemental based technique 
It would be like saying Kisame daikodan can't absorb the Raikage shroud 
I don't see anyone saying that . So why can't Yata laughably tank something it is built to tank


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## IchLiebe (Oct 9, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> I don't get how this thread is still up and running
> I would agree with all those who have said the sandaime can tank AMA and keep going
> But if he was really superior to itachi why remove genjutsu people ?
> 
> ...



That was a dumb comparison. No limit fallacies are dumb. Yata mirror has no feats. It blocked explosive tags, WOW. We don't know if it was used to tank Kirin(susanoo got busted anyways as Itachi was hurt after it). That's me coming up to you and saying I got a shield that can block a nuke, and you punch it and nothing happens. Then you going,"HOLY SHIT, IT REALLY CAN BLOCK A NUKE." Hype ass statements with no feats. 

I would give a list of attacks I don't think Kisame's daikodan can't absorb(Mostly Madara, Naruto, Hashirama, etc jutsu's) but that's because I feel it has a limit like samehada showed.

EDIT: I'm not saying if it wasn't for samehada, then it could absorb anything. I'm saying I'm basing it off of what samehada has shown and that I feel it can absorb more than samehada.


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## Turrin (Oct 9, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> I don't get how this thread is still up and running
> I would agree with all those who have said the sandaime can tank AMA and keep going
> But if he was really superior to itachi why remove genjutsu people ?


I think it's hard to tell whose stronger or whether they are equal. Sandaime and his Jutsu have a-lot of hype, but we only saw a watered-down Sandaime fight for 2 chapters, versus Itachi whose had tons of panel time (most of the time with enhancements or handicaps) .  Given that I don't see how a clear judgment can really be made.



> Itachi susanoo V4 should be able to tank nikute or even V3


Even V3? V3's defense was overcome by Baku + Fuuton combo. Why do you think Baku Combo > FRS, let alone something like Nukite which is much greater than FRS? 



> Yata doesn't need feats to counter an elemental based technique. So why can't Yata laughably tank something it is built to tank


Yata takes on the opposing elemental affinity. So, if faced with Nukite it would take on a Fuuton affinity. But that alone is not enough to defeat Nukite; it also has to be off the same strength as Nukite. Hence why Atsui's Katon flow sword can't block FRS. As of right now Yata does not have feats (or statements) saying it's strength is at the level of FRS, let alone the much stronger Nukite.

Given that we really can't say whether or not it could block Nukite



> It would be like saying Kisame daikodan can't absorb the Raikage shroud


Kisame's daikodan functions entirely differently than Yata. Daikodan doesn't clash with an elemental technique, it absorbs the chakra out of it. Therefore Daikodan, unlike Yata, does not need to be the same strength as the technique it's clashing with to win the clash, because it will absorb what's fueling the technique causing it to dissipate. 

However even still I do not approve off applying a no limits fallacy to Daikodan, which to this day still has not even a single feat (or statement establishing it's limits or lack there off). As if we apply said no limits fallacies than we end up with some pretty silly conclusions like Kisame's Daikodan could absorb a Juubi TBB.


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## Bonly (Oct 11, 2014)

Turrin said:


> How is what you posted any different than this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Difference is they didn't receive the same hype as the Yata Mirror. 




> Or actually would the world just explode if FRS made contact with CE-Gaara's Sand shield, since according to the DB 50%-FRS reduces everything to nothing,_ "↑The tornado-like gale resounds with a thunderous roar!! Afterwards, nothing remains but the ruins of the enemy and the silence after the storm."_



Of course not, the Yata Mirror would save the world 



> Yata Mirror is no different, it could probably block dam near everything we'd seen up to the point that it was revealed, but that doesn't continue to apply to more powerful techniques revealed in successive arcs. That's why I'd consider it plausible that based on Yata's hype it could block 50%-FRS despite it having nowhere near the feats to support it. *But the hype is irrelevant to me when discussing 100%-FRS and Nukite,* two vastly more powerful Jutsu revealed in successive arcs, that no longer fall under Yata's sphere of hype.



Good for you then, the hype is still relevant for me whether they could from the future arcs or not and hype will continue to be relevant whenever I discuss the Yata Mirror .


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## Turrin (Oct 11, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Difference is they didn't receive the same hype as the Yata Mirror.


Yata's hype was that it can block anything. Sand Shield and Shukak no Tate's hype is that they can block anything. The hype is the same. The only difference is that they happened at different points in the manga, and therefore we know Yata is better. But that has nothing to do with super powerful techniques that were revealed arcs later.



> Good for you then, the hype is still relevant for me whether they could from the future arcs or not and hype will continue to be relevant whenever I discuss the Yata Mirror .


The problem is, that I don't see how your drawing the line between what falls under Yata's hype and what doesn't. Clearly you don't think it would block anything, like Kaguya's massive Gododama (or at least I should hope not), but you do think it would block a number of things based on that hype. So again where is the line and how are you distinguishing it. Intuition? If so, fine, but admit that's what your doing, and don't run around telling other people that Yata would definitely block Nukite and they are wrong for questioning whether or not it could.


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## Bonly (Oct 11, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Yata's hype was that it can block anything. Sand Shield and Shukak no Tate's hype is that they can block anything. *The hype is the same.* The only difference is that they happened at different points in the manga, and therefore we know Yata is better. But that has nothing to do with super powerful techniques that were revealed arcs later.



So the sand shields were also hyped as being a legendary item along with Totsuka as well?



> The problem is, that I don't see how your drawing the line between what falls under Yata's hype and what doesn't. Clearly you don't think it would block anything, like Kaguya's massive Gododama (or at least I should hope not), but you do think it would block a number of things based on that hype. So again where is the line and how are you distinguishing it. Intuition? If so, fine, but admit that's what your doing, and don't run around telling other people that Yata would definitely block Nukite and they are wrong for questioning whether or not it could.



The line is simple. Any of the five basic elemental jutsu that are used for attacking would be countered unless they have massive power+AoE which could go either way depending on how the jutsu and Yata Mirror would interact. So a jutsu like Futon: Choodama Rasenshuriken has a good chance to overpower the Yata Mirror due to it's massive size and power, more or less. Only other time is if it has hype which I believe is better then the Yata Mirror. And yes I will continue to say Yata Mirror will block Nukite and continue to tell someone else they are wrong if they reply to me saying it can't until I'm given a reason to believe otherwise.


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## Icegaze (Oct 11, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I think it's hard to tell whose stronger or whether they are equal. Sandaime and his Jutsu have a-lot of hype, but we only saw a watered-down Sandaime fight for 2 chapters, versus Itachi whose had tons of panel time (most of the time with enhancements or handicaps) .  Given that I don't see how a clear judgment can really be made.
> 
> 
> Even V3? V3's defense was overcome by Baku + Fuuton combo. Why do you think Baku Combo > FRS, let alone something like Nukite which is much greater than FRS?
> ...



Sorry did you just say Yata doesn't have statements to suggest it can tank nikute ?
Black zetsu clearly stated itachi can't be beat when using the technique 
Black zetsu is kaguya
No other tech has a better DB statement 
Yes I agree no feats back it up but no feats go against it


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## Turrin (Oct 11, 2014)

Bonly said:


> So the sand shields were also hyped as being a legendary item along with Totsuka as well?


Nope, but I thought you were talking about the blocks anything hype. Something being a legendary item doesn't tell us anything, because there is nothing saying a legendary items is, X-good or Y-bad. There's a vast array of legendary items varying in potency. For example Banana-Fan, a legendary item, can also produce all nature affinities as Yata is hyped to do, but it's nature changes are on a level that would be fodder compared to FRS.



> The line is simple. Any of the five basic elemental jutsu that are used for attacking would be countered unless they have massive power+AoE which could go either way depending on how the jutsu and Yata Mirror would interact. So a jutsu like Futon: Choodama Rasenshuriken has a good chance to overpower the Yata Mirror due to it's massive size and power, more or less. Only other time is if it has hype which I believe is better then the Yata Mirror. .


Okay you explained where the line is for you; now can you explain why you've drawn the line there? I.E. what exactly states that it can block FRS, but would potentially loose to Chou Oddoma FRS? And you can't just say it's hype, because i'm asking what part of the hype indicates the line should be placed there.

While your at it can you explain what reasoning you have for  Chou Oddoma FRS > Nukite?



> And yes I will continue to say Yata Mirror will block Nukite and continue to tell someone else they are wrong if they reply to me saying it can't until I'm given a reason to believe otherwise.


That's not how credible discussion works. You can't say someone else is wrong, if you literally have nothing to support your assertions, besides you just guessing that Yata can block this, but can't block that.



Icegaze said:


> Sorry did you just say Yata doesn't have statements to suggest it can tank nikute ?
> Black zetsu clearly stated itachi can't be beat when using the technique
> Black zetsu is kaguya
> No other tech has a better DB statement
> Yes I agree no feats back it up but no feats go against it


Yes that's exactly what I said. BZ's Statement and the DB's statement only apply to the moment when they are made in the manga, I.E. up till that point Yata could block virtually any technique we've seen. However they do not apply to vastly more powerful techniques we've seen arcs later, anymore than Tsunade saying she's invincible with Gensis of Rebirth means she's tanking Juubi's TBB and living to tell the tail. Something virtually invincible in the Uchiha-Bros arc is not so in the Pain-Arc, Kages-arc, or War-Arc. 

I mean just think about it for a second BZ also calls Itachi invincible, but even Edo-Itachi needed help to survive Nagato and Kabuto. That should be a clear indicator that these statements no longer apply.

Now if we started getting these statements again about Itachi's Yata-Mirror in the War-Arc i'd take the hype more seriously, but so far that is not the case.


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## Icegaze (Oct 11, 2014)

Fair point turrin 
You are right I guess 
Though that would mean you are saying nikute >Kirin
since that tech was shown right before Yata was used


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## StickaStick (Oct 11, 2014)

I'm not sure BZ's statement is worth much no matter how you interpret it, because regardless of anything else BZ is not infallible and can be (and is) wrong; something you would think ppl would have figured out after reading the Kaguya fight.

Also find it interesting that certain individuals want to take a statement made hundreds of chapters ago as anything other than hyperbole but would completely disregard the fact that BZ basically referenced Itachi as an idiot not too long ago.


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## Bonly (Oct 11, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Nope, but I thought you were talking about the blocks anything hype. Something being a legendary item doesn't tell us anything, because there is nothing saying a legendary items is, X-good or Y-bad. There's a vast array of legendary items varying in potency. For example Banana-Fan, a legendary item, can also produce all nature affinities as Yata is hyped to do, but it's nature changes are on a level that would be fodder compared to FRS.



I was talking about all the hype it has in general and being a legendary item helps to put it's hype above the sand shields you mention.




> Okay you explained where the line is for you; now can you explain why you've drawn the line there? I.E. what exactly states that it can block FRS, but would potentially loose to Chou Oddoma FRS? And you can't just say it's hype, because i'm asking what part of the hype indicates the line should be placed there.



The way jutsu should work. It's the same way as how if Shukaku shot off his Futon Renkudan at Pre Wave arc Sasuke's fireball. Even though Katon>Futon the sheer size and power difference should allow it to blow out the flames like the cool summer breeze can potentially blow out the fire on a lighter. FRS makes a big dome once it explodes when the FRS(before exploding) is about the size of a human. If the dome gets that big when the FRS is about human size then the dome from an FRS of this size should be many many times bigger. So the flame of the Yata Mirror has a very good chance get overpowered by the massive amount of Futon the COFRS makes. 



> While your at it can you explain what reasoning you have for  Chou Oddoma FRS > Nukite?



I believe COFRS> FRS and I believe FRS>= Nukite so you can prolly guess why I find COFRS>Nukite. 



> That's not how credible discussion works. You can't say someone else is wrong, if you literally have nothing to support your assertions, besides you just guessing that Yata can block this, but can't block that.



The support I have is the DB and the hype it's gotten which leads me to make such assertions.


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## Turrin (Oct 11, 2014)

Bonly said:


> I was talking about all the hype it has in general and being a legendary item helps to put it's hype above the sand shields you mention.


In terms of defensive hype you can't go above being invincible. So I fail to see how being a legendary item can raise somethings hype beyond, the highest point. I believe Yata's hype is better, but that is because I think temporality matters, as in the point in the manga the statements are made, but you don't agree with that, so I don't see how your making the distinction.



> The way jutsu should work. It's the same way as how if Shukaku shot off his Futon Renkudan at Pre Wave arc Sasuke's fireball. Even though Katon>Futon the sheer size and power difference should allow it to blow out the flames like the cool summer breeze can potentially blow out the fire on a lighter. FRS makes a big dome once it explodes when the FRS(before exploding) is about the size of a human. If the dome gets that big when the FRS is about human size then the dome from an FRS of this size should be many many times bigger. So the flame of the Yata Mirror has a very good chance get overpowered by the massive amount of Futon the COFRS makes.


The problem is how big a Jutsu is does not necessarily define how strong it is. We know Nukite is stronger than FRS, despite FRS AOE being much larger than Nukite's.  



> I believe COFRS> FRS and I believe FRS>= Nukite so you can prolly guess why I find COFRS>Nukite.


Nukite was blatantly shown to be much stronger than FRS. So I don't get this at all.

impossible… the rasen shuriken did not work…!\

if his body is the strongest shield… how did he receive that!?\\
The rasen shuriken did not even leave a scratch and yet!!\\

I thought that he suffered that wound when his own move hit his chest \\
It was his shame because it was a wound that he inflicted upon himself\\
He was the ninja that possessed the strongest spear and the strongest shield…\\ surely this is a contradiction\\
So it means that the raikage’s spear was stronger huh…



> The support I have is the DB and the hype it's gotten which leads me to make such assertions.


How does Yata's hype support it can block Nukite/FRS, anymore than CE-Gaara's ultimate defense hype supports it can block a Juubi TBB.


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## Icegaze (Oct 12, 2014)

Turrin because gaara defence doesn't do anything specific to block a BD
While Yata specifically does something to help it defeat an elemental technique


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## IchLiebe (Oct 12, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Turrin because gaara defence doesn't do anything specific to block a BD
> While Yata specifically does something to help it defeat an elemental technique



That's a terrible point to argue. Gaara's defense blocks, that's what it's always done. Just because Yata has more complicated mechanics doesn't make it better.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 12, 2014)

Sigh* 2014 and where comparing garra's sand shield to yata mirror



kishimoto retconned garra's sand shield hype by having people bypass it and by having garra get hit , clearly it's not invincible, yata's hype was never disproven in the manga, so the 2 is far from comparable when we go by manga facts and common sense.


Not that I believe the shield is invincible but I do believe it to be alot better then you guy's are tying to give it credit for.


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## IchLiebe (Oct 12, 2014)

The difference is we got to see it enough for people to bypass it. Yata is nothing but hype right now. Atleast Gaara's shield got plenty of feats of blocking shit before being busted.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 12, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> The difference is we got to see it enough for people to it bypass it. Yata is nothing but hype right now least Gaara's shield got plenty of feats of blocking shit before being busted.



The author made the statement when itachi was alive, he could of chose to retcon It when itachi was brought back to life yet he didn't. 

We can atleast scale it to v4 susano durability and v4 susano blocked alot more shyt then garra's sand shield, throw in the shields special mechanics from the databook and the 2 aren't remotely comparable


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## Turrin (Oct 12, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Turrin because gaara defence doesn't do anything specific to block a BD
> While Yata specifically does something to help it defeat an elemental technique


But now your arguing mechanics instead of hype. And I've already explained why the mechanics of Yata does not mean it could necessarily block FRS, or Nukite


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## Bonly (Oct 12, 2014)

Turrin said:


> In terms of defensive hype you can't go above being invincible. So I fail to see how being a legendary item can raise somethings hype beyond, the highest point. I believe Yata's hype is better, but that is because I think temporality matters, as in the point in the manga the statements are made, but you don't agree with that, so I don't see how your making the distinction.




Man legendary items are always better then so pleb normal items and if the hype of something is invincible then being a legendary allows the hype to raise even further and pierce the heaven! 



> The problem is how big a Jutsu is does not necessarily define how strong it is. We know Nukite is stronger than FRS, despite FRS AOE being much larger than Nukite's.



Indeed but we know that COFRS is stronger the FRS and the sheer size of the Futon it puts out would be huge which means it has a good chance to overpower the flame.  



> Nukite was blatantly shown to be much stronger than FRS. So I don't get this at all.



Then we see it differently.



> impossible? the rasen shuriken did not work?!\
> 
> if his body is the strongest shield? how did he receive that!?\\
> The rasen shuriken did not even leave a scratch and yet!!\\
> ...



Nope still doesn't mean it's stronger. FRS attacks the inside as well as the outside and it can destroy the chakra tubes in ones body. The Sandaime was an Edo which would mean he wouldn't be effected the same way. Had he been alive I have no reason to believe he would have gotten up and started running around like he did in canon. It might have better piercing power but that alone isn't enough to say it's better/stronger then FRS overall wise to me.



> How does Yata's hype support it can block Nukite/FRS, anymore than CE-Gaara's ultimate defense hype supports it can block a Juubi TBB.



Rock Lee.


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## Turrin (Oct 12, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Man legendary items are always better then so pleb normal items and if the hype of something is invincible then being a legendary allows the hype to raise even further and pierce the heaven!


We're not comparing normal items to legendary ones though. We are comparing two powers used for defense that are both given the highest hype possible, that they are "invincible". Being a legendary item can't bring that up any further, because there is nothing beyond "invincible" in terms of defensive hype.



> Indeed but we know that COFRS is stronger the FRS and the sheer size of the Futon it puts out would be huge which means it has a good chance to overpower the flame.


Whether it overpowers the Yata Mirror's nature change or not has nothing to do with size though. It specifically has to do with the power behind the Jutsu. In that regard COFRS has more power behind it than FRS, which gives it the potential to overcome defenses that FRS can not. However this still doesn't explain why you have decided Yata can't be overcome by FRS, but can be overcome by COFRS. 

To put it in more simple terms, there are only a couple arguments you can make with Yata's defensive capabilities. 

1) You could believe it's literally invincible due to it's hype, which means it could block both FRS and COFRS. 
2) You could go purely by feats, in which case the argument would be that we don't know if it can block FRS or COFRS, or not
3) You could go off temporality, in which case the argument would be it was nigh invincible as of the Uchiha-Bros arc, but this would not pertain to powerful Jutsu like FRS revealed afterwards. So again we wouldn't know if it can block FRS or COFRS, or not

However you've rejected all three of these arguments as the basis for your assertions. So other than you just putting forward a guess based on intuition, I don't see how you can possibly be making your assertions.



> Then we see it differently.


No you see it differently than the author and Naruto, which is nonsensical



> Nope still doesn't mean it's stronger. FRS attacks the inside as well as the outside and it can destroy the chakra tubes in ones body.


How is internal damage even prudent to the discussion. Is Yata Mirror a physical entity with organs, chakra network, etc...? All that matters here is the power of both Jutsu. Nukite was displayed as blatantly more powerful than FRS when it cut through the Ultimate-Shield like a hot knife through butter, while FRS w/ the elemental advantage failed to leave even a single scratch on Sandaime.





> The Sandaime was an Edo which would mean he wouldn't be effected the same way


If Sandaime was heavily damaged internally he would have also been down for the count. Edo's don't regenerate from internal damage immediately, as shown by Hanzo being done in by poison. Additionally the needles also have to pierce through the outer body to reach the internal network, but Sandaime doesn't even receive a single scratch from FRS, so we know the needles never made it through his Ultimate-Shield.



> Had he been alive I have no reason to believe he would have gotten up and started running around like he did in canon. It might have better piercing power but that alone isn't enough to say it's better/stronger then FRS overall wise to me.


What Jutsu is "better" is not relevant to the discussion of what Jutsu is more powerful. Nukite is factually much more powerful than FRS.. FRS may or may not be a better Jutsu despite it being less powerful, due to other factors that determins how good a Jutsu is. However what's important in this discussion where both are going up against a non-living shield is solely power.



> Rock Lee.


Discussing Rock Lee brings this into the sphere of feats, rather than hype. It's extremely obvious that CE-Gaara's ultimate defense feats do not support it's hype, But the problem is that nether does Yata's.


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## IchLiebe (Oct 12, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> The author made the statement when itachi was alive, he could of chose to retcon It when itachi was brought back to life yet he didn't.
> 
> We can atleast scale it to v4 susano durability and v4 susano blocked alot more shyt then garra's sand shield, throw in the shields special mechanics from the databook and the 2 aren't remotely comparable



He could of chose to back up the claims when Itachi was edo'd and he chose not to. 

Scaling it to susanoo for no reason. It has nothing to do with susanoo. No relation or anything. It's just some shield Itachi found.


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## Bonly (Oct 12, 2014)

Turrin said:


> We're not comparing normal items to legendary ones though. We are comparing two powers used for defense that are both given the highest hype possible, that they are "invincible". Being a legendary item can't bring that up any further, because there is nothing beyond "invincible" in terms of defensive hype.



So you're not comparing a normal item of Gaara's sand to the legendary item of the Yata mirror? 




> Whether it overpowers the Yata Mirror's nature change or not has nothing to do with size though.



Stop reading here. If you don't think the size of a jutsu can help overpower the jutsu of an opposite nature then there's no need to go further.



> No you see it differently than the author and Naruto, which is nonsensical



Huh kinda like you and the Yata Mirror.




> How is internal damage even prudent to the discussion.



Stop reading here. You really need to actually pay attention to what what's going on before you reply. You did this earlier when we talked about "likelihood" and you went out of the topic we were talking about. 




> If Sandaime was heavily damaged internally he would have also been down for the count. Edo's don't regenerate from internal damage immediately, as shown by Hanzo being done in by poison.



Edo Tensei's don't have the same exact normal body as a normal living person and nothing says they can't regen damn near immediately. Just because it didn't happen with one Edo doesn't mean it won't happen with another Edo, we've seen this happen before with the Edo's.  



> Additionally the needles also have to pierce through the outer body to reach the internal network, but Sandaime doesn't even receive a single scratch from FRS, so we know the needles never made it through his Ultimate-Shield.



Not having a scratch on him doesn't prove the needles never made it through, just look at Kakuzu didn't have a scratch on the outside of his body that he didn't get beforehand. 



> What Jutsu is "better" is not relevant to the discussion of what Jutsu is more powerful.



Well no shit sherlock, why do you think I put "/stronger"



> Nukite is factually much more powerful than FRS.. FRS may or may not be a better Jutsu despite it being less powerful, due to other factors that determins how good a Jutsu is. However what's important in this discussion where both are going up against a non-living shield is solely power.



Lol much more powerful my ass and as you asked I answered your question.




> Discussing Rock Lee brings this into the sphere of feats, rather than hype. It's extremely obvious that CE-Gaara's ultimate defense feats do not support it's hype, But the problem is that nether does Yata's.



Feats add into hype as well.


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## IchLiebe (Oct 12, 2014)

SM FRS disintegrated a body, we're talking RM FRS here. You can imagine how much stronger it is.


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## Bonly (Oct 12, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> SM FRS disintegrated a body, we're talking RM FRS here. *You can imagine how much stronger it is*.



SM FRS>KCM FRS in power.


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## Rocky (Oct 12, 2014)

I don't really know what the basis for that is...


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## IchLiebe (Oct 12, 2014)

Bonly said:


> SM FRS>KCM FRS in power.



LOL. KCM can hand out chakra shrouds that give people 3 times power boost. Naruto can do that on a whim. KCM>>>>>>>1 tailed shroud. But please, show me some scans that support that.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 12, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> He could of chose to back up the claims when Itachi was edo'd and he chose not to.
> 
> Scaling it to susanoo for no reason. It has nothing to do with susanoo. No relation or anything. It's just some shield Itachi found.



Kool story bro.



What would be the point of a shield if it's weaker or less durable then the object it's guarding??

then there's also the fact that only s4 susano can use these weapons



To bad that "some shield" has been hyped to be a legendary item that even orochimaru  sought after.

I rather use these clues to scale it to v4 then to down grade it for absolutely no reason other then you not liking the character.

its like your whole arguement is it's featless therefore it's weak which makes no sense your better off just saying your unsure instead of asserting a baseless arguement


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## Turrin (Oct 12, 2014)

Bonly said:


> So you're not comparing a normal item of Gaara's sand to the legendary item of the Yata mirror?


Gaara's  Sand Shield is an item 

Pretty sure it's a Jutsu.



> Stop reading here. If you don't think the size of a jutsu can help overpower the jutsu of an opposite nature then there's no need to go further.


I don't think anything. It's a fact that size is not the sole determining factor for how powerful a Jutsu/attack/ability is. There are many Jutsu that are much larger than Juubito's black element, but they aren't even in the same stratosphere strength wise. Same thing with Kaguya's ash-bone. And the list goes on and on from there.



> Huh kinda like you and the Yata Mirror.


If the situation with Yata was really the same as your suggesting, we wouldn't even be having this conversation because we would have already seen Yata blatantly demonstrate more power than FRS or Nukite. However in reality that is not the case.



> Stop reading here. You really need to actually pay attention to what what's going on before you reply. You did this earlier when we talked about "likelihood" and you went out of the topic we were talking about.


Your the one who brought up internal damage 



> Edo Tensei's don't have the same exact normal body as a normal living person and nothing says they can't regen damn near immediately. Just because it didn't happen with one Edo doesn't mean it won't happen with another Edo, we've seen this happen before with the Edo's.


When?



> Not having a scratch on him doesn't prove the needles never made it through, just look at Kakuzu didn't have a scratch on the outside of his body that he didn't get beforehand.


Kakuzu body was completely shredded, so I don't really have any clue what your talking about here.



> Well no shit sherlock, why do you think I put "/stronger"


Than why did you even bring it up, considering what jutsu is functionally better holds no relevance to this conversation. If you knew what you were doing, than all this makes it seem like is that you were intentionally attacking a straw-man.



> Lol much more powerful my ass and as you asked I answered your question.


I asked what makes you think FRS is more powerful than Nukite, which this holds no relevance towards



> Feats add into hype as well.


So again nether have the feats to substantiate their hype.


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## Bonly (Oct 12, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> LOL. KCM can hand out chakra shrouds that give people 3 times power boost. Naruto can do that on a whim. KCM>>>>>>>1 tailed shroud. But please, show me some scans that support that.



No BM Naruto can hand out chakra shrouds that does such, KCM Naruto never has. SM gives boost of power KCM Naruto only gets more chakra and as you said it yourself SM FRS disintegrated a pain body, can you show KCM FRS doing the same?


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## IchLiebe (Oct 12, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Kool story bro.
> 
> What would be the point of a shield if it's weaker or less durable then the object it's guarding??



To say it's there. Make him feel safer. List goes on.



> then there's also the fact that only s4 susano can use these weapons



Actually s2 susanoo can too. And that was the only time we saw the shield in action.



> To bad that "some shield" has been hyped to be a legendary item that even orochimaru  sought after.



And? Bigfoots a legend. Nessy's a legend. Legend's are hype. Take into account people bullshitting and exaggerations and it's nothing much.



> I rather use these clues to scale it to v4 then to down grade it for absolutely no reason other then you not liking the character.
> 
> its like your whole arguement is it's featless therefore it's weak which makes no sense your better off just saying your unsure instead of asserting a baseless arguement



I'm not saying it's weak. I'm saying it's only feat is blocking explosive tags and that's where I'll draw my conclusions from.


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## IchLiebe (Oct 12, 2014)

Bonly said:


> No BM Naruto can hand out chakra shrouds that does such, KCM Naruto never has. SM gives boost of power KCM Naruto only gets more chakra and as you said it yourself SM FRS disintegrated a pain body, can you show KCM FRS doing the same?



BM gives Kurama's chakra out. Naruto doesn't get more chakra, he's using Kurama's chakra. That's the reason his shunsin in RM is better and faster than SM. RM Naruto has only used FRS on the 3rd raikage, juubi, juubito, and juubidara. So of course non of them got destroyed.


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## Bonly (Oct 12, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Gaara's  Sand Shield is an item
> 
> Pretty sure it's a Jutsu.



Garaa's sand shield is made out of sand, an item.




> If the situation with Yata was really the same as your suggesting, *we wouldn't even be having this conversation* because we would have already seen Yata blatantly demonstrate more power than FRS or Nukite. However in reality that is not the case.



And yet here we are anyway even with the blatantly hype it's gotten.



> When?



Not a single Edo Tensei has shown blood expect for Itachi is one example of all the Edo's not being the same. 



> Kakuzu body was completely shredded, so I don't really have any clue what your talking about here.



No it wasn't, his body was completely intact after the hit and had no big cuts or anything, just the same scratch marks he had from earlier in the fight. 



> Than why did you even bring it up, considering what jutsu is functionally better holds no relevance to this conversation. If you knew what you were doing, than all this makes it seem like is that you were intentionally attacking a straw-man.



To see if your panties in a bunch which happened lol. Brought up one word, better, and you focus on that one word as if it's important rather then more so on the power part lol 



> I asked what makes you think FRS is more powerful than Nukite, which this holds no relevance towards.



Upon which I answered.




> So again nether have the feats to substantiate their hype.



Well Yata's feats so far is that it blocks what come in contact with which goes with it's hype to block all attacks


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## Bonly (Oct 12, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> BM gives Kurama's chakra out. Naruto doesn't get more chakra, he's using Kurama's chakra. That's the reason his shunsin in RM is better and faster than SM. RM Naruto has only used FRS on the 3rd raikage, juubi, juubito, and juubidara. So of course non of them got destroyed.



So Naruto has his own set of chakra and then Kurama's chakra is another set yet your saying that using Kurama's chakra doesn't give him access to more chakra he wouldn't have?


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## IchLiebe (Oct 12, 2014)

Bonly said:


> So Naruto has his own set of chakra and then Kurama's chakra is another set yet your saying that using Kurama's chakra doesn't give him access to more chakra he wouldn't have?



Kurama's chakra=/=Naruto's chakra. Chakra can be more potent in different individuals. Such as Madara's and Hashirama's are more powerful than Kakashi's or Itachi's. Kurama's chakra>>>>>>Naruto's.

You're said he only gets more chakra trying to make it sound like it ain't shit while it is.


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## Turrin (Oct 12, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Garaa's sand shield is made out of sand, an item.


It's still the jutsu that makes the sand into a powerful defensive shield. We were never comparing Yata to just some sand 



> And yet here we are anyway even with the blatantly hype it's gotten.


So now your arguing that we should take it's hype seriously, and it can indeed block anything?



> Not a single Edo Tensei has shown blood expect for Itachi is one example of all the Edo's not being the same.


That does not show that Edo-Tensei regen is different for Edos, that just shows Itachi has a Jutsu with a special effect that other Tensei do not have.



> No it wasn't, his body was completely intact after the hit and had no big cuts or anything, just the same scratch marks he had from earlier in the fight.


Yes it was:
gives boost of power
gives boost of power



> To see if your panties in a bunch which happened lol. Brought up one word, better, and you focus on that one word as if it's important rather then more so on the power part lol


So you were trolling. So than why should I even take you seriously anymore?



> Upon which I answered.


No you just answered why you feel FRS is better, not more powerful.



> Well Yata's feats so far is that it blocks what come in contact with which goes with it's hype to block all attacks


Okay, so the same is true for Gaara's SRA Shukaku no Tate defense. So it to should be held to the same standards as Yata?


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## Bonly (Oct 12, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Kurama's chakra=/=Naruto's chakra. Chakra can be more potent in different individuals. Such as Madara's and Hashirama's are more powerful than Kakashi's or Itachi's. Kurama's chakra>>>>>>Naruto's.



Is it or is it not more chakra that he has access to?



> You're said he only gets more chakra trying to make it sound like it ain't shit while it is.



Not saying it ain't shit or anything just saying what it is, which is more chakra.


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## IchLiebe (Oct 12, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Is it or is it not more chakra that he has access to?



His chakra's so powerful it had to be sealed last so the other tailed beasts chakra could counterbalance it and gedo mazou wouldn't be destroyed.



> Not saying it ain't shit or anything just saying what it is, which is more chakra.



Whatever.


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## Bonly (Oct 12, 2014)

Turrin said:


> It's still the jutsu that makes the sand into a powerful defensive shield. We were never comparing Yata to just some sand



Indeed we weren't but the jutsu still uses an item so when you brought non legendary items and non legendary items I just had to point that out 



> That does not show that Edo-Tensei regen is different for Edos, that just shows Itachi has a Jutsu with a special effect that other Tensei do not have.





> Yes it was:
> His chakra's so powerful it had to be sealed last so the other tailed beasts chakra could counterbalance it and gedo mazou wouldn't be destroyed.
> His chakra's so powerful it had to be sealed last so the other tailed beasts chakra could counterbalance it and gedo mazou wouldn't be destroyed.



No it wasn't:
http://www.mangapanda.com/93-347-8/naruto/chapter-342.html



> So you were trolling. So than why should I even take you seriously anymore?



Take me seriously or don't take me serious I don't care, I haven't taken you seriously for a couple of months honestly but tis be fun once in a while to play around. 




> No you just answered why you feel FRS is better, not more powerful.



No I answered why it's equal to or more power then.



> Okay, so the same is true for Gaara's SRA Shukaku no Tate defense. So it to should be held to the same standards as Yata?



Close to it, but not quite, Yata Mirror did a better job so it's on a slightly higher standard.


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## Bonly (Oct 12, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> His chakra's so powerful it had to be sealed last so the other tailed beasts chakra could counterbalance it and gedo mazou wouldn't be destroyed.



Wasn't it also said that it took three days to seal a Bijuu? Wasn't both shit on by Madara as well? But anyway glad you agree.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 12, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> To say it's there. Make him feel safer. List goes on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So the legendary shield is just there to be there or to make itachi feel safe this, is the best you could come up with? ?




Except this isn't real life, it's a fictional world where kishimoto gets decides what is legendary and what isn't


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## IchLiebe (Oct 12, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Wasn't it also said that it took three days to seal a Bijuu? Wasn't both shit on by Madara as well? But anyway glad you agree.



More powerful chakra>More chakra. And Madara sealed Kurama last.


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## Rocky (Oct 12, 2014)

Bonly said:


> No BM Naruto can hand out chakra shrouds that does such, KCM Naruto never has. SM gives boost of power KCM Naruto only gets more chakra.



More Chakra = _More Power._

Just look at what KCM does to his body flicker. It enhances ninjutsu all the same.



> and as you said it yourself SM FRS disintegrated a pain body, can you show KCM FRS doing the same?



KCM Naruto never fought Pain.


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## Bonly (Oct 12, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> More powerful chakra>More chakra.



Glad you agree.



> And Madara sealed Kurama last.



Madara sealed Kurama at the same time as Gyuki, not afterwords.


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## IchLiebe (Oct 12, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Glad you agree.



RM Chakra>>>>>>>SM in potency and quantity.



> Madara sealed Kurama at the same time as Gyuki, not afterwords.



Gyuki went in first. Notice how Kurama is behind him, no beside.


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## Bonly (Oct 12, 2014)

> Gyuki went in first. Notice how Kurama is behind him, no beside.



They look pretty next to each to me and they were both sucked at at once, it didn't wait for Gyuki to be sealed then Kurama so yeah.


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## IchLiebe (Oct 12, 2014)

Just stop. Hachibi is clearly closer to the statue and Kurama went in last.


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## Turrin (Oct 12, 2014)

@
Bonly, I still don't see reasoning from you for why Yata should block somethings, but not others besides your intuition, so I suspect you don't have one and are just filibustering at this point to avoid just coming out and saying so. So I really don't see any reason to continue this discussion, especially when you openly admit your trolling in at least certain parts of your posts.


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## Bonly (Oct 12, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Just stop. Hachibi is clearly closer to the statue and Kurama went in last.



Why should I stop, I thought you of all people would appreciate me denying the obvious because YOLO!, like yourself



Turrin said:


> @
> Bonly, I still don't see reasoning from you for why Yata should block somethings, but not others besides your intuition, so I suspect you don't have one and are just filibustering at this point to avoid just coming out and saying so. So I really don't see any reason to continue this discussion, especially when you openly admit your trolling in at least certain parts of your posts.



You've been given the reasons why but until the next time you reply to me and we do the dance once more my good sir


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