# FUZE=Kazakiri (ToAru) vs Magneto



## ~Greed~ (Jul 22, 2010)

Fight takes place in academy city.
Bloodlusted
PIS/CIS are off
They start 50 feet apart.

How does this go?


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## SniperStyle (Jul 22, 2010)

Magneto takes this soundly. If its Academy city he can manipulate the iron and metal around him and suffocate her, however she does have that railgun thing which would be a problem, if magneto couldnt make a psychic forcefield


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 22, 2010)

SniperStyle said:


> Magneto takes this soundly. If its Academy city he can manipulate the iron and metal around him and suffocate her, however she does have that railgun thing which would be a problem, if magneto couldnt make a psychic forcefield



Your probably thinking of Mikoto. She isn't in this match.

This should give you a idea about Kazakiri's powers.


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## SniperStyle (Jul 22, 2010)

hmmmm, so whats stopping magneto from using the iron sand in the city to go into her body and destroy the core? I dont see any move that could get past magneto's shield. Also whats stopping magneto from causing the entire city to crumble upon her in a giant storm of flying metal that will rip her core to shreds? But what im trying to understand here is the ability to read the future she has. I know its not more than 10 seconds, or it cant be used in a fight right?


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## pikachuwei (Jul 22, 2010)

i didnt know Fuze=kazakiri was like darkwing accel and DL other people's esper powers.

From what i know of the both of them FUZE should take this easily. If she also has access to accelerator's powers this is even moar lulz.


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## Xelloss (Jul 22, 2010)

She is not corporeal you can damage her body all you want and that wont bring her down, she also have a insulation field around her to avoid magnetism and also have magnetic powers.


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## Fang (Jul 22, 2010)

Being incorporeal or intangible isn't a problem for Magneto.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 22, 2010)

Magneto controls the entire EM spectrum and has shown he can fuck with other people's life forces and manages to make wormholes 

I snicker at the 'avoiding magnetism' stuff when Mags has shown some very esoteric techniques


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 22, 2010)

Let's look:

-Magneto fucks with Electro Magnetic Spectrum on a planetary scale
-He can counter teleportation, he has punked a teleporter
-He can manipulate gravity too
-He can manipulate lightning
-He has gone up against storm and elemental attacks
-He can create wormholes for BFR
-He has resisted Xavier's psionic attacks
-He has reflected psionic attacks back
-Thought speed in Marvel>lightspeed, Magneto is a psionic so yeah
-He can also fly
-He can also manipulate photons and has fought light manipulation
-His forceshield has tanked planetary attacks
-He can manipulate things at a molecular level
-He can use magnetism on things not magnetic through diamagnetism
-He's broken out of a bear hug from Hercules
-he's fought the Avengers and X-men
-Precog is useless if you can't react
-Magneto is not a vampire
-Magneto does not use magic

Any other abilities from the wiki I forgot to counter?


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## Veikuri (Jul 22, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Let's look:
> 
> -Magneto fucks with Electro Magnetic Spectrum on a planetary scale
> -He can counter teleportation, he has punked a teleporter
> ...



Corrected most of the stuff.


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## Banhammer (Jul 22, 2010)

Magneto while powernerfed picked the kitty bullet from lightyears away and brought it back to earth in three days.

He lifted himself and prometheus into the uper atmosphere while most of the iron in his blood was turned into lead

I'm guessing he hurls his enemy into the sun without much effort


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## Fang (Jul 22, 2010)

Hasn't his shields blocked/tanked planet-busters from Herald class opponents?


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 22, 2010)

> Never done it in an actual fight



What? He reversed gravity in a fight casually.


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## Veikuri (Jul 22, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> What? He reversed gravity in a fight casually.



In what fight?


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 22, 2010)

Link removed

This one assuming it's canon.


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## Banhammer (Jul 22, 2010)

TWF said:


> Hasn't his shields blocked/tanked planet-busters from Herald class opponents?



Blows from Gallactus once. But current magneto can't output energy the same way as before. He's still... Adjusting.
Some of his feats are amazing and others are... weird.


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## Veikuri (Jul 22, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Link removed
> 
> This one assuming it's canon.



I mean't in an actually fight, not training.


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## Banhammer (Jul 22, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> I mean't in an actually fight, not training.


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## Veikuri (Jul 22, 2010)

How am I trolling/emo/whatever that is?


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## Banhammer (Jul 22, 2010)

Did you just call Terezi emo?!?!


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## Veikuri (Jul 22, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> Did you just call Terezi emo?!?!



It looks emo as hell.

Anyone want to post a way FUZE=Kazakiri can win so we can get this thread rolling?


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 22, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> It looks emo as hell.



that's where you're wrong


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 22, 2010)

pikachuwei said:


> i didnt know Fuze=kazakiri was like darkwing accel and DL other people's esper powers.
> 
> From what i know of the both of them FUZE should take this easily. If she also has access to accelerator's powers this is even moar lulz.



She doesn't have accelerator or Kakine's powers since they are divine in nature. She does have everything else.



TWF said:


> Being incorporeal or intangible isn't a problem for Magneto.



Her true body exists on another plane of existence.



Veikuri said:


> Anyone want to post a way FUZE=Kazakiri can win so we can get this thread rolling?



- Her sepheric wings can atomize him. These wings surround her body and are each several kilometers long (I think they were 100 kilometers long)

- Is immortal, can not be killed unless he can find and hit her core which is on another plane of existence. Basically she can regen from nothing.

- Is currently fighting a reality warping planet buster, who can make every person on earth switch bodies, and cause a solar eclipse, so unless magneto can throw out more then that he isn't harming her.

- She can teleport all Magneto's organs out of his body just by thinking about it. So unless Magneto can survive like that he is screwed.

- Can read minds, so she can probably read his mind to find out what he is going to do before hand. She can also mind rape people into killing themselves or make them her mind slave. Though considering that he xavior's rival this may not work.

- She can see into the future, so she can probably see what he is going to do before he does it.

- Can become invisible and hide her presence (not sure if this will work against magneto though)


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## SniperStyle (Jul 22, 2010)

this sounds like a purposely rapeing thread to me >_<


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## God (Jul 22, 2010)

No it isn't


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 22, 2010)

It'll be more even, if the fact she's virtually unkillable unless her opponent can cross dimensions and destroy her core. Which makes her sound like an even more h4x version of the Former Crimson King.


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## kyrax12 (Jul 22, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> She doesn't have accelerator or Kakine's powers since they are divine in nature. She does have everything else.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why in the world did you make this thread then?

It seems like your bias and on Kazakiri's side.


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## God (Jul 22, 2010)

It's not a rape or stomp by any means but FUZE=Kazakiri probably wins.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 22, 2010)

kyrax12 said:


> Why in the world did you make this thread then?
> 
> It seems like your bias and on Kazakiri's side.



I made a thread asking what character would be a good match for her. I was told Magneto may be a good match, so I made a match between them.



basch71 said:


> It'll be more even, if the fact she's virtually unkillable unless her opponent can cross dimensions and destroy her core. Which makes her sound like an even more h4x version of the Former Crimson King.



I actually asked xelloss if he could confirm her core is in another dimension. I know the other angels cores are in another dimension, but I remember in the anime normal Kazakiri had her core in her body. Then again, that was normal Kazakiri, and not FUZE.


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## Veikuri (Jul 22, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> She doesn't have accelerator or Kakine's powers since they are divine in nature. She does have everything else.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Response in bold. Also a few questions.

-What is she? As in: Is she like the Kyubi who is a mass of energy or a regular body with gdlk powers? etc
-What are normal ways people in her manga fight her.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 22, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> Is this a physical attack?



Yes. Here is a picture of what the wings look like. Mind you this is a half awakened FUZE.





> Is she undefeated in her own world, also can she be knocked out?


She is undefeated, but there are people in her verse that are considered stronger then her, and one character who is the same level as her. She has never been shown to be knocked out. Even before she became FUZE (when she was weak) she had her head destroyed and she just regenerated. Knocking her out probably won't work.



> Magneto in Eve of Destruction crucified Xavier by reversing the iron in his blood so he could think or perform any actions. Possibly this way if she cannot be defeated.



She doesn't have any blood., bones, iron or whatever in her body. Her body is basically a empty shell.



> Magneto's wins usually aren't "I can planet bust you, it's usually him saying "lol I control your power". She seems to work off Magnetism and elemental manipulation which I was reading in your link. One of Magneto's easiest wins are people that fall under Magnetism and they don't call him the Master for nothing.



She doesn't work off magnetism, she just has a magnetism ability. her main powers aren't really elemental manipulation, she just has that ability because she is a manifestation of every psychic's AIM (which is basically a psychics powers). 




> If she does something like this before Magneto can react then GG to Magneto honestly, but Magneto in X-Necrosha(A recent comic) has shown to put up a defense to reality warpers.



Her precog may help in catching him with her teleportation. It isn't reality warping, It's just a advance form of teleportation.



> She cannot read his mind. Something no one in Marvel can do unless they weaken him enough or he isn't trying to kill them. In Eve of Destruction when the X-Men freed Xavier he even gave up because he knew Xavier could just stop him from using his own Magnetism, but this is really only given to Xavier and people like Psylocke/Jean Grey(Phoenix)/Emma Frost and the list goes on can usually never touch his mind or his builds resistant.



Like I said, I didn't think that would work.



> I really can't argue against this.. How does she lose in her manga? >.> honest question with that ability.



She has never lost. The only character above her is Aiwass. And Gabriel  should be around the same level as her. The only way she can die is by negating her existence. In the novels, she said that if she touched Kamijou Touma's Imagine Breaker she would die, because it would Consider her supernatural and kill her. 



> Won't work against him.


Like I said, I didn't think it would.



> -What is she? As in: Is she like the Kyubi who is a mass of energy or a regular body with gdlk powers? etc
> -What are normal ways people in her manga fight her.



She is a considered a artificial angel, or a fallen angel in her verse. She exists as a manifestation of every psychic's AIM (which is basically a psychics powers).


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 22, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Her true body exists on another plane of existence



BFR with wormhole is still do able.



> Her sepheric wings can atomize him. These wings surround her body and are each several kilometers long (I think they were 100 kilometers long)



Magneto can do things on a molecular, atomic and even electron level(Diamagnetism). He also has flown to space with ease and with his thought speed reaction he can dodge it. 



> Is immortal, can not be killed unless he can find and hit her core which is on another plane of existence. Basically she can regen from nothing



No, She's regening from her core which is in another dimension so attacks that work on a dimensional level are required, not nothing. Magneto has no counter for this, not sure if astral projection will work.  BFR still applies.



> Is currently fighting a reality warping planet buster, who can make every person on earth switch bodies, and cause a solar eclipse, so unless magneto can throw out more then that he isn't harming her



He can't harm her because of her immortality, his moveset is about H4X.



> She can teleport all Magneto's organs out of his body just by thinking about it. So unless Magneto can survive like that he is screwed



Unless she can move >lightspeed she is not doing anything, I just explained that teleportation won't work on Magneto, he has a forcefield that can stop people from teleporting. I remember him putting one around his house that stops people from teleporting but could be wrong.



> Can read minds, so she can probably read his mind to find out what he is going to do before hand. She can also mind rape people into killing themselves or make them her mind slave. Though considering that he xavior's rival this may not work



Yes this won't work, Magneto has gone up against psionics and has powers of his own.



> She can see into the future, so she can probably see what he is going to do before he does it



Unless she can move>lightspeed this will not matter. Precog is useless if your body can't move to react.



> Can become invisible and hide her presence (not sure if this will work against magneto though)



It won't, he has other ways of seeing. He can see things on a molecular level even see photons. He could also do what she does to sense invisible things with his own magnetism powers as it too is part of his moveset.


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## Veikuri (Jul 22, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Yes. Here is a picture of what the wings look like. Mind you this is a half awakened FUZE.
> .


What type of damage does that do? Usually physical direct attacks don't work on him. 





> She is undefeated, but there are people in her verse that are considered stronger then her, and one character who is the same level as her. She has never been shown to be knocked out. Even before she became FUZE (when she was weak) she had her head destroyed and she just regenerated. Knocking her out probably won't work.


How fast is her regeneration and can it be taxed like Wolverine's?




> She doesn't work off magnetism, she just has a magnetism ability. her main powers aren't really elemental manipulation, she just has that ability because she is a manifestation of every psychic's AIM (which is basically a psychics powers).


 What is her main way of attack then?






> Her precog may help in catching him with her teleportation. It isn't reality warping, It's just a advance form of teleportation.


 Teleportation usually doesn't work against Magneto. X-Men have Nightcrawler and Magneto can sense where he is going to land due to a rip in the electromagntic spectrum. Something like that. 




> She is a considered a artificial angel, or a fallen angel in her verse. She exists as a manifestation of every psychic's AIM (which is basically a psychics powers)


 Did they give a reason why Magneto would be a good fight against this person? Her being immortal/regening from anything isn't helping.


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## Kurou (Jul 22, 2010)

Wow. Never knew Magneto was such a badass. I knew he was badass but not to this extent.


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## Fang (Jul 22, 2010)

I severely doubt this chick can compare to Charles in mental attacks, capacity, range, or output. In fact I'm pretty sure with his electromagnetism abilities he created psionic shields or buffers on his mind IIRC.


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## God (Jul 22, 2010)

^ If Jean and Emma cant mess with Magneto's mind, there's no way she's going to.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 22, 2010)

Philosoph?a said:
			
		

> *Magneto vs Proteus
> 
> 
> 
> ...



he's pretty good with the whole energy manipulating thing


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 22, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> What type of damage does that do? Usually physical direct attacks don't work on him.


It's atomic destruction. basically whatever her wings touch gets atomized. Her wings also completely surround her body.



> How fast is her regeneration and can it be taxed like Wolverine's?



I believe it's instant. It hasn't ever been taxed before.




> What is her main way of attack then?


She usually uses her energy sword, her barrier and her sepheric wings.



> Teleportation usually doesn't work against Magneto. X-Men have Nightcrawler and Magneto can sense where he is going to land due to a rip in the electromagntic spectrum. Something like that.


I see. Teleporting may not work then. 




> Did they give a reason why Magneto would be a good fight against this person? Her being immortal/regening from anything isn't helping.



I'm guessing it was because of the amount of abilities she has. They just stated that magneto would likely be a good match.




TWF said:


> I severely doubt this chick can compare to Charles in mental attacks, capacity, range, or output. In fact I'm pretty sure with his electromagnetism abilities he created psionic shields or buffers on his mind IIRC.



I didn't say she did. I even stated that mental attacks likely wouldn't work.


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## Veikuri (Jul 22, 2010)

I give this to the Kazakiri person tbh. Unless she has low stamina Magneto can just counter all of her techs, but can't really harm her. He doesn't have infinite stamina so he will eventually tire out.  


I give Kazakiri 9/10.


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## Banhammer (Jul 22, 2010)

100 km is impressive

100 light years is more.

Kazakiri is lucky if she realizes she's passing through the sun by the time she the notion the battle has started hits her.


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## God (Jul 22, 2010)

Sun won't kill her.


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## Xelloss (Jul 22, 2010)

Personally I hate kazaraki character so I am rooting for magneto


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## Kurou (Jul 22, 2010)

Cubey said:


> Sun won't kill her.



I'm guessing it counts as BFR so~


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## Xelloss (Jul 22, 2010)

To a angel with teleport and dimensional travel?


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 23, 2010)

I just got clarification from xelloss and it seems Kazakiri's core is actually inside her body unlike with the other angels.

Not sure if that changes the direction of the match though.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 23, 2010)

then Magneto's energy manipulation could come into play


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## God (Jul 23, 2010)

Ok, Magneto takes this.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 23, 2010)

Cubey said:


> Ok, Magneto takes this.



I don't think the outcome changes that much just because her core is in her body. She is still very hard to kill.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 23, 2010)

No the Outcome is still Erik wins just far more easily now that practically anything he does at thought speed would end this. He could have BFR'd her even without this new development. Magneto's only weakness is he subconsciously restrains himself but can still do some ridiculously powerful feats. Magneto has a moveset that's damn near unfair(Doom himself has stated this) because he can manipulate and do so many different abilities even outside his psionic ones.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 23, 2010)

Judging by her profile on the wiki, she should be able to win, because Magneto can't hit her core. The closest thing I can remember to him hitting things in other dimensions was creating a wormhole, but that's really not relevant here. If someone can post a scan of him attacking or affecting things across dimensions though, I would be willing to change my mind.

It seems like Nate Gray would be a better match for her.


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## pikachuwei (Jul 23, 2010)

^its been confirmed her core isnt in alternate dimension now. so wat do u think of the matchup now?


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## Endless Mike (Jul 23, 2010)

So where is it then?


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 23, 2010)

Inside her body which just means instead of BFR he can now actually hurt her.


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## Xelloss (Jul 23, 2010)

Again BFR would be useless to a dimensional teleporter, her core is inside her body (unless novel 21 change this on any way).


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## MisterShin (Jul 23, 2010)

Does Fuze=Kazakiri have the powers/abilities of all Level 5's

If so then she wins using Kakines power, it will be able to bypass Magneto's Sheilds.


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## God (Jul 23, 2010)

Her core is in her body which means she's killable, unless she has perfect/true regeneration or immortality, which I'm pretty sure she doesn't.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 23, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> So where is it then?



In her body. I made the mistake of assuming her core was in another dimension like it is with all other angels. Though novel 21 may change her core's location, otherwise she would probably have a harder time fighting Gabriel.



MisterShin said:


> Does Fuze=Kazakiri have the powers/abilities of all Level 5's
> 
> If so then she wins using Kakines power, it will be able to bypass Magneto's Sheilds.



She doesn't have Kakine's powers, or accelerators powers, since those are divine in nature. She has all the other level 5's powers though.



Cubey said:


> Her core is in her body which means she's killable, unless she has perfect/true regeneration or immortality, which I'm pretty sure she doesn't.



She has almost perfect immortality, the only way to kill her is to kill her core. If Magneto doesn't kill her core then she will regenerate.


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## MisterShin (Jul 23, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> She doesn't have Kakine's powers, or accelerators powers, since those are divine in nature. She has all the other level 5's powers though.


That seems a little strange considering they both give off the strongest levels of AIM of the level 5's. 

I guess it means their abilities cannot be copied, thats why they made clones of misaka instead, makes sense i guess.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 23, 2010)

MisterShin said:


> That seems a little strange considering they both give off the strongest levels of AIM of the level 5's.
> 
> I guess it means their abilities cannot be copied, thats why they made clones of misaka instead, makes sense i guess.



Be glad she doesn't copy Imagine Breaker.


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## Big Bοss (Jul 23, 2010)

So in the end Magneto wins via destroying her core yes or no?


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## MisterShin (Jul 24, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> So in the end Magneto wins via destroying her core yes or no?


Magneto must destroy her core to win.
Although i wont be easy with the amount of automatic forcefields she can create and then the antimatter wings and then the regeneration on top of this. She also wont be easy to hit with teleportation and hypersonic movement.

Her forcefields include an unknown forcefield, a telekinetic shield, Atomic shield (converts electrons to dissolve attack).

The fun dont stop there, she has electromagnetism like Magneto, water/ice/fire/earth/wind/light manipulation, teleportation and more.

I think the *winner* will be decided on *who has the most stamina*. 

I know magneto has done crazy stuff like wormhole and shields have take blasts from Galactus. 
But how long would his shields last against Galactus? Im sure it is dependant on Mags stamina.
Anyone know what Mags forcefield is composed off? It some tough shizzle if it stand up to Galactus and teleporting does not work inside off it.


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## Black Sabbath II (Jul 24, 2010)

I see this going either way really, but for the fact that I'm a major magneto fanboy I'm going to say Magneto takes it 60/40. 

Though someone will have to explain HOW magneto is going to destroy her core since I'm still a bit unsure. BFR won't work against a person who could just teleport back in an instant so that's out of the question.


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## Veikuri (Jul 24, 2010)

KumogakureRaikage said:


> I see this going either way really, but for the fact that I'm a major magneto fanboy I'm going to say Magneto takes it 60/40.
> 
> Though someone will have to explain HOW magneto is going to destroy her core since I'm still a bit unsure. BFR won't work against a person who could just teleport back in an instant so that's out of the question.



I'd say Kazakiri takes this 80/20 and Magneto is my favorite Marvel character.. Magneto fanboys are just something else..


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## Kurou (Jul 24, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> I'd say Kazakiri takes this 80/20 and Magneto is my favorite Marvel character.. Magneto fanboys are just something else..


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## pikachuwei (Jul 25, 2010)

i dunno, magneto should have the reaction advantage to launch the first attack here, but without prior knowledge i dont think he will hit the core with his first shot in which case FUZE eats him 

btw someone said something about magneto being able to precog TP or sumthing? explain how it works or FUZE uses move point (or point move i forgot which it is) and teleports a concrete block into him.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 25, 2010)

For the last time, teleporting won't work on him, why do you repeat a debunked point. What precog? I said precog is useless when Magneto can react to light and is a psionic from Marvel while  she is not lightspeed. She has no knowledge on him either and no she won't be able to read his mind either. He could dodge or block or counter almost everything. Teleporting, psionic attacks, elemetal attacks and destruction of matter are all she can do in a nutshell based on her moveset, offcourse it's a wiki so if she can do more then do tell.

Teleporting is useless as already explained
Magnetism/electricity is a bad idea against Magneto
Elemental attacks not damaging enoughor fast enough
Magneto can manipulate various energies
Her psionic attacks are useless against him
He has the reactions and movement speed to dodge
Magneto can manipulate things on atomic level and even electrons too

At worst it's a stalemate till he tires. I seem to recall seeing a scan where he took control of She Hulk.


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## pikachuwei (Jul 25, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> For the last time, teleporting won't work on him, why do you repeat a debunked point. What precog? I said precog is useless when Magneto can react to light and is a psionic from Marvel while  she is not lightspeed. She has no knowledge on him either and no she won't be able to read his mind either. He could dodge or block or counter almost everything. Teleporting, psionic attacks, elemetal attacks and destruction of matter are all she can do in a nutshell based on her moveset, offcourse it's a wiki so if she can do more then do tell.
> 
> Teleporting is useless as already explained
> Magnetism/electricity is a bad idea against Magneto
> ...


i know you debuanked, i just kinda forgot how it worked

and how fast is magneto's movement speed? even if he has godly reaction times, if he cant move out of the way of an attack fast enough it wont work.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 25, 2010)

He can sense disruptions in the magnetic lines of force, he can basically see and sense things as patterns of magnetic and electrical energy. He said he could sense Nightcrawler's destination even before he could thus rendering his teleportation useless. His shield can also block teleportation, they just end up hurting themselves against it. Having such reaction speed means he can react fast enough to put up a barrier or counter.

Movement speed let's him fly into space easily and back, so high hypersonic.


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## MisterShin (Jul 25, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> He can sense disruptions in the magnetic lines of force, he can basically see and sense things as patterns of magnetic and electrical energy. He said he could sense Nightcrawler's destination even before he could thus rendering his teleportation useless. His shield can also block teleportation, they just end up hurting themselves against it. Having such reaction speed means he can react fast enough to put up a barrier or counter.
> 
> Movement speed let's him fly into space easily and back, so high hypersonic.


Fuze=Kazakiri can do the same thing, in relation to sensing electro-magnetic energies etc. I dont think she has done anything to a teleporter though.

Magneto Shield is created via Electro-Magnetism at the atomic level i believe.
So i think Fuze=Kazakiri can use her Electro-Magnetism, which is also on the atomic level to *weaken* Magneto Shield enough to allow teleportations or other of her abilities to punch through the shield.

I dont think a win is possible for Magneto against Fuze=Kazakiri.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 25, 2010)

Magneto's shield can block depending on what he sets it to, Magneto's electro magnetism>Fuze, he's not called the Master of magnetism for nothing. You have yet to post feats of Fuze with regards to electromagnetism that say it'll do anything to Magneto. Magneto can manipulate things on the molecular/atomic/photon/electron level too. He's fucked with machines designed to counter magnetism and I recall him fucking plastic. He can make things from the atoms in the air. He's screwed with Thor's hammer and Wolverine's adamantium. 

If he wants he could summon a metal pipe from China while in France, his range is just insane. He's punked out Storm's lightning attacks and she's powerless to take back control from Magneto.

He could screw with her motor functions or block the supply of oxygen to her brain or give her the bottle effect which worked even on Jean Grey Phoenix. Magneto has so many abilities, lots of incredible raw power and experience fighting the likes of X-men, Avengers, Hulk, Inhumans, Hercules and many others so there is nothing in her moveset he can't handle.

His shields can't ne phased through, teleported through, messed with by various energies or even be harmed by someone who can find the weakness in things because no weakness was detected.  He could decontruct her atom by atom if he wanted.


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## Rashou (Jul 25, 2010)

Looking at both profiles it seems like her movement speed is on par with his, though Magneto apparently has faster reactions. In essence, she won't be able to hit him easily, but since she can teleport, is intangible, and has her own shields (no idea how powerful they are, though) and the hundreds (I think) atomizing wings I think this match is fairly close. Honestly though, Point Move sounds pretty broken. How does Magneto's teleportation interception work? Knowing a teleport is going to happen and being able to stop, or at least redirect it, are two different things. For instance, if Point Move works like it says then she can teleport his head off and him knowing "My head will be teleported" isn't going to help.


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## God (Jul 25, 2010)

He knows when something is going to teleport before it does and has reactions at c.


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## Rashou (Jul 25, 2010)

So he can't actually redirect or stop it?


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## God (Jul 25, 2010)

Yes, his shields stop things from being teleported at/to him, so he would stop the teleportation of a cement block from being put in his heart or used to take his head off 

As for teleporting his head itself, like I said, he knows before it happens and has lightspeed reactions. He could easily stop it.


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## pikachuwei (Jul 26, 2010)

just because he has lightspeed reactions doesnt mean he can dodge it

if i had hypersonic reactions i still wont be able to dodge a bullet at point blank, my body wont move fast enough.


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## God (Jul 26, 2010)

The stupidest thing I've ever EVER heard


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## noobthemusical (Jul 26, 2010)

pikachuwei said:


> just because he has lightspeed reactions doesnt mean he can dodge it
> 
> if i had hypersonic reactions i still wont be able to dodge a bullet at point blank, my body wont move fast enough.



...

What the fuck is the logic behind either of those statements.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 26, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> He can sense disruptions in the magnetic lines of force, he can basically see and sense things as patterns of magnetic and electrical energy. He said he could sense Nightcrawler's destination even before he could thus rendering his teleportation useless. His shield can also block teleportation, they just end up hurting themselves against it. Having such reaction speed means he can react fast enough to put up a barrier or counter.



How exactly does one react to having their brains teleported out of their bodies. Kakzkiri doesn't teleport herself or teleporting objects into him, she teleports parts of her opponents bodies out of their bodies. Even with lightspeed reactions, I would think that would be hard to do.



Cubey said:


> Yes, his shields stop things from being teleported at/to him, so he would stop the teleportation of a cement block from being put in his heart or used to take his head off



Her move point ability doesn't teleport objects towards inside or to another destination. Movepoint basically teleports pieces of parts of people's bodies  off of a person. It can be used like normal teleportation, but it rarely is.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 26, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> How exactly does one react to having their brains teleported out of their bodies. Kakzkiri doesn't teleport herself or teleporting objects into him, she teleports parts of her opponents bodies out of their bodies. Even with lightspeed reactions, I would think that would be hard to do



You have yet to prove he could do anything before Magneto  thinks about doing something to her and doing so at thought speed. He goes up against people who can react and attack at the same.  Now in addition to that he has his shield which blocks teleportation.



> Her move point ability doesn't teleport objects towards inside or to another destination. Movepoint basically teleports pieces of parts of people's bodies  off of a person. It can be used like normal teleportation, but it rarely is.



Well then I'm not sure here, his shield's ability to block teleporation may or may not work here. It's stopped people from teleporting into what the shield covers, whether it'll work on the opposite I don't know but then again has movepoint worked on something that blocks teleporation? If so then I'll conceed it'll go through his shield, till then it's 50/50. He still has faster attack/reactions, he could just use one of his many H4X abilities mentioned here.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 26, 2010)

So he can control all the electricity in the world? I don’t see how that is going to help him much here.


How is that more impressive then Kazakiri’s shields? She has the shields of all espers in the city, meaning she has a atomization shield,  a TK barrier, a particle shield, and many more types of shields. She also has her Sepheric wings to protect her, and they atomize whatever they touch. The only shield she doesn’t have is Accelerators vector field, and her shields are likely MUCH better then that considering she is fighting Gabriel in the next novel. 



>



I already said her mind raping would be useless against him.


I don’t really understand what he did here. Did he follow them after they teleported? That feat alone really isn't going to help him against Move Pointer. 



>



I don’t see what he did here either…. Did he tank a nuke or something?  Because that isn’t really that impressive if that is what he did. Accelerator can tank nukes, and Kazakiri would make him her bitch.



Tranquil Fury said:


> You have yet to prove he could do anything before Magneto  thinks about doing something to her and doing so at thought speed. He goes up against people who can react and attack at the same.  Now in addition to that he has his shield which blocks teleportation.



Move pointer is thought speed. Kazakiri can just think about it and his heart/brain/whatever organ she wants to steal would teleport out of his body.



> Well then I'm not sure here, his shield's ability to block teleporation may or may not work here. It's stopped people from teleporting into what the shield covers, whether it'll work on the opposite I don't know but then again has movepoint worked on something that blocks teleporation? If so then I'll conceed it'll go through his shield, till then it's 50/50. He still has faster attack/reactions, he could just use one of his many H4X abilities mentioned here.



So basically it only stops people and things from teleporting into his shields? From what I can tell, Kuroko's teleportation would be completely useless on him, but move pointer will probably still work, since she isn't actually entering his shield in any way.

The only shields that move pointer hasn't worked on is accelerators Vector field(which isn't technically a shield). It would still get past all of the other shields shown in the series though(like mikoto's electromagnetic shield and iron sand barrier, Mugino's atomization shield, Harumi's TK shield, and every other shield shown in the series.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2010)

Call me when her shields take attacks like Uni-powered Spider-man's blasts and Thor's Mjolnir


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 26, 2010)

doesn't Mag's shield jam teleportation overall

kind of like how Wars shields should just stop Feddie ships from teleporting stuff into them or out, unless it was some wank fanfic scenario


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## Veikuri (Jul 26, 2010)

You do realize he can only do that while hooked up to that machine? Even after that it damaged his DNA badly to the point he couldn't use his power without a medium.

Nice.

Only reason Xavier needed Jean was because of the suit he is using. It enables him to walk as long as he uses his mental power. Meaning he can't fully use his mental powers in that scan.


This scan doesn't open on my PC, what is it?



Lol. Old ass scan and you never see Magneto do that outside of the danger room. In fact he never does that again iirc.





> *Spoiler*: __


 I don't see what you're trying to prove here? This is a one on one.

Yes, his shields are strong. 




> lol.


You really only have two credible scans. the Thor/She-Hulk one and the nuke one. The rest look appealing if you've never read an X-Men title before.




Endless Mike said:


> Call me when her shields take attacks like Uni-powered Spider-man's blasts and Thor's Mjolnir


I think you should press next on the Spider-Man one.. Magneto even said he couldn't take Cosmic Spider on. He was too strong for him. =/


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2010)

Yes, but he did take a blast from him without damage.

Also the scan you can't see is Magneto holding off a telepathic attack by Professor X and multitasking by manipulating metal around him to trap him simultaneously.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 26, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Call me when her shields take attacks like Uni-powered Spider-man's blasts and Thor's Mjolnir



What can both of those do? What kind of damage do they put out?


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> What can both of those do? What kind of damage do they put out?



This kind of damage:




In case you couldn't tell, that thing was larger than multiple stars.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 26, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> This kind of damage:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well crap, his shields are stronger then hers then. Her strongest one can likely only stand up to planet busting (if she is going to fight Gabriel on even ground).


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## Veikuri (Jul 26, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Yes, but he did take a blast from him without damage.
> 
> Also the scan you can't see is Magneto holding off a telepathic attack by Professor X and multitasking by manipulating metal around him to trap him simultaneously.



Where do you get your information from lol? Spider-Man's blast went past his shield and hurt Magneto to the point he thought his chances of winning were low(this is one hit).


Thor's damage output is pretty random, but usually consistant mid-high, but in that picture Thor wasn't at full power during his confrontation vs Magneto.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> Where do you get your information from lol? Spider-Man's blast went past his shield and hurt Magneto to the point he thought his chances of winning were low(this is one hit).



He took at least one without damage. I remember seeing the scan.



> Thor's damage output is pretty random, but usually consistant mid-high, but in that picture Thor wasn't at full power during his confrontation vs Magneto.



I never denied a serious Thor can beat Magneto. However Magneto can tank his hits to a degree.


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## Veikuri (Jul 26, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> He took at least one without damage. I remember seeing the scan.




They only fought in one issue(Cosmic Spider vs Magneto) and the first beam Spider-man sent at Magneto he commented on his power. Spider-Man hit him again and ran to save some people because he threw a car at magneto and it hit a boat. Then Magneto confirmed to himself Spidey wasn't a mutant. I don't see how him taking the FIRST hit and commenting on it followed by a few pages him taking another one yet that one deals 0 damage to him. He's never been over-dramatic.





> I never denied a serious Thor can beat Magneto. However Magneto can tank his hits to a degree.



That response was more for Greed since he asked a question, but I'd love to see a REAL thor vs magneto fight in the comic.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> They only fought in one issue(Cosmic Spider vs Magneto) and the first beam Spider-man sent at Magneto he commented on his power. Spider-Man hit him again and ran to save some people because he threw a car at magneto and it hit a boat. Then Magneto confirmed to himself Spidey wasn't a mutant. I don't see how him taking the FIRST hit and commenting on it followed by a few pages him taking another one yet that one deals 0 damage to him. He's never been over-dramatic.



I never said 0 damage, I said he tanked it. That is, he deflected it and was not killed or seriously injured.



> That response was more for Greed since he asked a question, but I'd love to see a REAL thor vs magneto fight in the comic.



Last one I saw, Thor used a trick to win by manipulating his power with Mjolnir.


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## Veikuri (Jul 26, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> I never said 0 damage, I said he tanked it. That is, he deflected it and was not killed or seriously injured.


My bad, I see a lot in this thread that is falsely wrong. A lot of people seem to over-hype Magneto faaar to much.




> Last one I saw, Thor used a trick to win by manipulating his power with Mjolnir.


I liked that fight even tho Magneto lost. I wished they would of fought during the 90s tho =/


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## pikachuwei (Jul 27, 2010)

noobthemusical said:


> ...
> 
> What the fuck is the logic behind either of those statements.



what im trying to say is even if you have godly reaction if ur movement isnt fast enough reaction wont help much, you'd just know earlier that u will die

its kinda like how that arrancar guy from bleach got poisoned by mayuri, his senses were heightened to that every second was like a hundred years to him, but his body was so far behind his senses he couldnt dodge that stab anyway. (i dont really remember what happened so sorry if i made mistakes)


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 27, 2010)

The mechanics behind some Shonen is not the same as the mechanics behind marvel, DC and Star Wars with regards to thought speed and in Marvel I remember Xavier saying thought speed>Light. Now what does manipulating the magnetic field on such level do? It shows how insane his control over magnetism is if his other ridiculous feats were'nt, it was stated there was a character who could become one with the EM spectrum but the difference between him and Magneto was Mags holds back.

Magneto could decontruct this chick, he's recreated things with a mere gesture and in an old issue made things from thin air by manipulating the atoms. He's even manipulated the molecules of an ice spike. So yes he could deconstruct her. Magneto can do 98% pf what she can better. He could rip the iron from her blood or give her the bottle effect or  cut the oxygen supply to her brain. Well that's just some of the nasty and yet amazing things he could do to her. Her core is not in another dimension, she is now screwed. What chance she had of winning is gone.

Whoever said Magneto was a good match up was obviously either joking or wanted a reverse rape. She only has one move which would work on him that point move while he has many moves. I can post scans to back up all this as well.


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## pikachuwei (Jul 27, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> The mechanics behind some Shonen is not the same as the mechanics behind marvel, DC and Star Wars with regards to thought speed and in Marvel I remember Xavier saying thought speed>Light. Now what does manipulating the magnetic field on such level do? It shows how insane his control over magnetism is if his other ridiculous feats were'nt, it was stated there was a character who could become one with the EM spectrum but the difference between him and Magneto was Mags holds back.
> 
> Magneto could decontruct this chick, he's recreated things with a mere gesture and in an old issue made things from thin air by manipulating the atoms. He's even manipulated the molecules of an ice spike. So yes he could deconstruct her. Magneto can do 98% pf what she can better. He could rip the iron from her blood or give her the bottle effect or  cut the oxygen supply to her brain. Well that's just some of the nasty and yet amazing things he could do to her. Her core is not in another dimension, she is now screwed. What chance she had of winning is gone.
> 
> Whoever said Magneto was a good match up was obviously either joking or wanted a reverse rape. She only has one move which would work on him that point move while he has many moves. I can post scans to back up all this as well.



but its reaction speed, i think the mechanics behind that is universal. isnt reaction speed (the speed at which u can sense something) different from movement speed (the speed at which ur physical body can move? so if someone has high reaction speed but low movement speed it would still be difficult for them to dodge. for instance it would be easy to kill a garden snail even if said snail had lightspeed reactions. it would be able to react to my foot stepping on it, but its body cannot move out of the way fast enough. reaction isnt everything (i dont doubt magneto is as slow as a snail, im just trying to make a point)

and considering that Fuze is just an empty shell (shes basically a high concentration of AIM) most of the attacks u just mentioned are useless

she has no brain, blood watever, she is basically a hollow mannequin (albeit a mannequin that can move and feels like a human) with her Core inside


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 27, 2010)

Magneto cannot travel at such speeds and he has never faced someone who could teleport something from inside his shield, he usually stops those who try to get inside so that ability is the only problem he has. Keyword is most attacks not all but Magneto can do counter or handle most of her attacks as well. Magneto can't BFR her either so may'be he could use his ability to manipulate things on an atomic level. 

Otherwise I'm not sure what he can do(did'nt know she was hollow), BFR is useless on her and if he can't put her down that point move will do him in. 

The version of magneto needed to have been specified, this one is basically Magneto Prime so he gets all his best showings, all characters are assumed to be at their strongest form unless stated otherwise.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 27, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Magneto cannot travel at such speeds and he has never faced someone who could teleport something from inside his shield, he usually stops those who try to get inside so that ability is the only problem he has. Keyword is most attacks not all but Magneto can do counter or handle most of her attacks as well. Magneto can't BFR her either so may'be he could use his ability to manipulate things on an atomic level.
> 
> Otherwise I'm not sure what he can do(did'nt know she was hollow), BFR is useless on her and if he can't put her down that point move will do him in.
> 
> The version of magneto needed to have been specified, this one is basically Magneto Prime so he gets all his best showings, all characters are assumed to be at their strongest form unless stated otherwise.



Her body is hollowed? Plus she has regen until her core is destroyed? That throws a majority of Mag's attacks out the window.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 27, 2010)

Yes if she's Hollowed then most of his attacks do go out the window, I agreed with this in the very post you quoted her core is made of what? it has to be made of atoms/molecules or some kind of energy. Depending on what will matter for this fight.


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## Veikuri (Jul 27, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> The mechanics behind some Shonen is not the same as the mechanics behind marvel, DC and Star Wars with regards to thought speed and in Marvel I remember Xavier saying thought speed>Light. Now what does manipulating the magnetic field on such level do? It shows how insane his control over magnetism is if his other ridiculous feats were'nt, *it was stated there was a character who could become one with the EM spectrum but the difference between him and Magneto was Mags holds back.*
> 
> Magneto could decontruct this chick, he's recreated things with a mere gesture and in an old issue made things from thin air by manipulating the atoms. He's even manipulated the molecules of an ice spike. So yes he could deconstruct her. Magneto can do 98% pf what she can better. He could rip the iron from her blood or give her the bottle effect or  cut the oxygen supply to her brain. Well that's just some of the nasty and yet amazing things he could do to her. Her core is not in another dimension, she is now screwed. What chance she had of winning is gone.
> 
> Whoever said Magneto was a good match up was obviously either joking or wanted a reverse rape. She only has one move which would work on him that point move while he has many moves. I can post scans to back up all this as well.


Are you really bringing Joesph into this argument?  He was stronger than Magneto dude..


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 27, 2010)

But he was called an imitation of magneto with the only difference being Magneto holding back, I was'nt arguing for who was stronger between the two just wanted to give an idea of what Magneto could do with his magnetism powers, he has other feats.


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## Veikuri (Jul 27, 2010)

Yes, he was called an imitation of Magneto because someone cloned him.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 27, 2010)

You are missing the point to the statement, Magneto holds back his power subconsicously. I'm not arguing for Joseph vs Magneto, the point was to give an idea of his powers. The difference between the two in power was Magneto held back while Joseph did not so yeah. I should have used some of his other feats of magnetism instead.


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## Veikuri (Jul 27, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> You are missing the point to the statement, Magneto holds back his power subconsicously. I'm not arguing for Joseph vs Magneto, the point was to give an idea of his powers. The difference between the two in power was Magneto held back while Joseph did not so yeah. I should have used some of his other feats of magnetism instead.



Yes, you should have.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 27, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Her body is hollowed? Plus she has regen until her core is destroyed?


Yes.




Tranquil Fury said:


> Yes if she's Hollowed then most of his attacks do go out the window, I agreed with this in the very post you quoted her core is made of what? it has to be made of atoms/molecules or some kind of energy. Depending on what will matter for this fight.


Her core is made of a pure concentration of .


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## Endless Mike (Jul 27, 2010)

If it's an energy field, Magneto can fuck it up.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 27, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> If it's an energy field, Magneto can fuck it up.



The AIM? Its basically the source of a espers powers. I don't know if it would be considered a energy field (even though that is what the wiki says). AIM is made by espers imposing their own reality on the world. Has Magento been shown to mess with something like that? It's not really a energy field, but rather a "reality warping field".

I don't believe AIM is even similar to anything in marvel.

Saying that magneto can control AIM is like saying he could control every espers powers. Like Kakine's Unknown Matter, or accelerators Vector Shield.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 27, 2010)

He can control pretty much every form of energy


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 27, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> He can control pretty much every form of energy



AIM isn't necessarily a form of energy. Accelerators Vector field isn't energy but that falls under AIM. Kakine's Unknown matter isn't a form of energy, but that is AIM. The Queens Mind controlling powers aren't energy but that is AIM. etc. Misaka's and Mugino's powers might fall under energy, but just taking control of them isn't going to do much.

What types of energy has he been shown to control?

The power kind of sounds like a no limits fallacy.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 27, 2010)

All of the electromagnetic spectrum, gravity, nuclear forces, psionic energy, cosmic energy, time/space, heat, magic, pretty much everythin.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 27, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> All of the electromagnetic spectrum, gravity, nuclear forces, *psionic energy*, cosmic energy, time/space, heat, magic, pretty much everythin.



This is what AIM technically is so...


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 27, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> All of the electromagnetic spectrum, gravity, nuclear forces, psionic energy, cosmic energy, time/space, heat, magic, pretty much everythin.



Again, That kind of sounds like a no limits fallacy. There has to be a limit to that. I didn't see him controlling thor's powers, or any of the other characters powers he was fighting in the scans. Being able to do that with no limit would make him almost unbeatable outside of reality warping and speed blitz.

Either way, Kazakiri's main power is to simply "exist". Kazakiri also controls 2.3 powers, He is likely not going to be able to control all of them. I would think that 2.3 million powers coming at him at once would at least pose some form of threat to him.

Veikuri seems to be pretty knowledgeable when it comes to Magneto, and also seems to be fairly unbiased, so I would like to know his opinion as well.



basch71 said:


> This is what AIM technically is so...



The power is made through enhancing the mind yes, but in reality it is just personal reality warping. But like I said, even if that was the case, this seems to be a no limits fallacy. Has he every controlled 2.3 million powers at once?


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## Endless Mike (Jul 27, 2010)

That's because Thor has better control than him. And 2.3 million BB guns are still no match for one nuke.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 27, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Again, That kind of sounds like a no limits fallacy. There has to be a limit to that. I didn't see him controlling thor's powers, or any of the other characters powers he was fighting in the scans. Being able to do that with no limit would make him almost unbeatable outside of reality warping and speed blitz.
> 
> Either way, Kazakiri's main power is to simply "exist". Kazakiri also controls 2.3 powers, He is likely not going to be able to control all of them. I would think that 2.3 million powers coming at him at once would at least pose some form of threat to him.
> 
> ...



Let me ask this, is one of those abilities Ars Magna?


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 27, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> That's because Thor has better control than him.



And who says Kazakiri doesn't have better control of her powers then magneto? They are her powers after all.....well kind of.



> And 2.3 million BB guns are still no match for one nuke.



Have you heard of the level upper network? In the level upper arc of the railgun manga, every esper who used the level upper system had their powers enhanced. The reason for this was because there were other people in the city who also has similar powers in the network. The level upper system only has 10,000 people in the system, and yet it could turn someone who could only use his powers to make a can pop and fizzle into a level 4 esper who could blow up whole buildings with a tin can or a spoon. The system that Kazakiri runs on is almost exactly the same as the one the level upper system ran on. In a sense, All of Kazakiri's powers were boosted the same way that the level upper users powers were boosted, except a thousand fold. Kazakiri has 2.3 million powers, much more then the 10,000 powers that were used in the level upper arc. Each of her powers are boosted many times over because she has several AIM that are very similar to one another in her powerset. Basically, each of these "BB gun level powers" are much stronger then they would be if it was used by any other person, some of them are probably town level if not much more. This isn't even counting how broken some of her powers are. 



basch71 said:


> Let me ask this, is one of those abilities Ars Magna?



No, Index has that power, she is much much weaker then kazakiri though.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 27, 2010)

Actually, after doing some research about Psionic energy and reading about some examples of it. it doesn't seem to be much like AIM.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 27, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> And who says Kazakiri doesn't have better control of her powers then magneto? They are her powers after all.



Call me when she breaks the armor of a Celestial, or manipulates cosmic energy from the entire universe.



> Have you heard of the level upper network? In the level upper arc of the railgun manga, every esper who used the level upper system had their powers enhanced. The reason for this was because there were other people in the city who also has similar powers in the network. The level upper system only has 10,000 people in the system, and yet it could turn someone who could only use his powers to make a can pop and fizzle into a level 4 esper who could blow up whole buildings. The system that Kazakiri runs on is almost exactly the same as the one the level upper system ran on. In a sense, All of Kazakiri's powers were boosted the same way that the level upper users powers were boosted, except a thousand fold. Kazakiri has 2.3 million powers, much more then the 10,000 powers that were used in the level upper arc. Each of her powers are boosted many times over because she has several AIM that are very similar to one another in her powerset. Basically, each of these "BB gun level powers" are much stronger then they would be if it was used by any other person, some of them are probably multi city block level if not much more. This isn't even counting how broken some of her powers are.



Feats or GTFO

BTW, average size of a city block (taking a higher value): 410 by 410 feet.



Multiplied by 2.3 million and applying the inverse square law, we get around 305 square km. Which is a circle with a radius of around 5.6 km. Which is pathetic.


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## Veikuri (Jul 27, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Call me when she breaks the armor of a Celestial, or manipulates cosmic energy from the entire universe.


And when has Magneto done any of this?



I've never seen Magneto manipulate cosmic energies. His psionic attacks are fairly weak. Unless he has his modified helmet it shouldn't be a problem. 

If her core isn't any type of energy then he can't really manipulate it. Even IF it was it isn't normal to Magneto so he would need a sample of it(IE: Proteus(a reality warper) tried to use his powers against him and he ripped him out of a body he tried to manipulate). He needs time to perform this and it won't be a speed blitz. That's giving him the benefit of the doubt, but I don't see him doing that.

2.3 million powers? Does that mean that 2.3m different powers hitting him at once? Not familiar with the manga so not sure what that means.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 27, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Call me when she breaks the armor of a Celestial, or manipulates cosmic energy from the entire universe.



Magneto has done this? Again, I'd like to hear Veikuri's opinion, since he seems to be fairly unbias.




> Feats or GTFO



Of how the level upper arc? I can get scans of that.



> Multiplied by 2.3 million and applying the inverse square law, we get around 305 square km. Which is a circle with a radius of around 5.6 km. Which is pathetic.



That actually isn't that bad.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 27, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> And when has Magneto done any of this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you for sharing that info. I value your opinion on this, since even though your obviously a big magneto fan you seem to be fairly unbias.



> 2.3 million powers? Does that mean that 2.3m different powers hitting him at once? Not familiar with the manga so not sure what that means.



Pretty much yes. A lot of the powers are kind of similar though, as I stated above.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 27, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> And when has Magneto done any of this?



I was referring to Thor.



> I've never seen Magneto manipulate cosmic energies. His psionic attacks are fairly weak. Unless he has his modified helmet it shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> If her core isn't any type of energy then he can't really manipulate it. Even IF it was it isn't normal to Magneto so he would need a sample of it(IE: Proteus(a reality warper) tried to use his powers against him and he ripped him out of a body he tried to manipulate). He needs time to perform this and it won't be a speed blitz. That's giving him the benefit of the doubt, but I don't see him doing that.



He was capable of manipulating the Phoenix Force to a limited degree.



> That actually isn't that bad.



It is compared to the kind of damage Magneto can do.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jul 27, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> It is compared to the kind of damage Magneto can do.



Meh, It was actually what I was thinking it would be. Thanks for the calc either way though. I didn't even think that would be possible to calc.


----------



## Veikuri (Jul 27, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Thank you for sharing that info. I value your opinion on this, since even though your obviously a big magneto fan you seem to be fairly unbias.
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty much yes. A lot of the powers are kind of similar though, as I stated above.



No problem. 2.3m is a little bit too much for him imo. Unless they're fairly weak he could possibly shield himself from some and redirect some into each other to cancel out. That's a farfetch theory tho.



Endless Mike said:


> He was capable of manipulating the Phoenix Force to a limited degree.


When was this?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 27, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> No problem. 2.3m is a little bit too much for him imo. Unless they're fairly weak he could possibly shield himself from some and redirect some into each other to cancel out. That's a farfetch theory tho.



Not really. This is Prime Magneto, remember.




> When was this?



When he fought Jean Grey.


----------



## Veikuri (Jul 27, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Not really. This is Prime Magneto, remember.



Which is that?



> When he fought Jean Grey.



Going to have to slim it down... She is a X-Man.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jul 27, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> No problem. 2.3m is a little bit too much for him imo. Unless they're fairly weak he could possibly shield himself from some and redirect some into each other to cancel out. That's a farfetch theory tho.



Some of them may be weak(the boosted level 0's), but according to the calc EM did, a lot of those powers could do 5.6 km worth of damage.

Also, like you said, even if AIM was some form of energy, he would have to sample it since it is foreign to him, correct? That may hinder him as well considering that he would have to sample 2.3 million different types of energy, since AIM is different for each person.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 27, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> Which is that?



Basically all of his best canon showings apply.



> Going to have to slim it down... She is a X-Man.








Link removed



~Greed~ said:


> Some of them may be weak(the boosted level 0's), but according to the calc EM did, a lot of those powers could do 5.6 km worth of damage.



Which would be like a fart against Mags' shields.



> Also, like you said, even if AIM was some form of energy, he would have to sample it since it is foreign to him, correct? That may hinder him as well considering that he would have to sample 2.3 million different types of energy, since AIM is different for each person.



Her core is only made of one type, correct?


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jul 27, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Her core is only made of one type, correct?



No, Her core is a manifestation of _all_ esper powers.



> Which would be like a fart against Mags' shields.



2.3 million 5.6 km blasts going off at once is only going to be a fart against his shields?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 27, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> No, Her core is a manifestation of _all_ esper powers.



But does that mean it's made out of more than one type of energy?


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 27, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> But does that mean it's made out of more than one type of energy?



It's all AIM but different variations due to numbers of different powers.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 27, 2010)

So in other words, not that difficult to destroy. Really, he doesn't even have to affect it directly, just crush it with EM or open a wormhole and send it to the sun.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jul 27, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> But does that mean it's made out of more than one type of energy?



In a sense yes. AIM is different for each esper. That little core is basically made up of all of those espers powers.


----------



## Veikuri (Jul 27, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Basically all of his best canon showings apply.


So pretty much a load of inconsistencies that favor Magneto? 





> Link removed


I always saw the bottle effect as putting a magnetic bubble on Jean so she couldn't tap into the earth's power. What's the random scan suppose to mean?




~Greed~ said:


> Some of them may be weak(the boosted level 0's), but according to the calc EM did, a lot of those powers could do 5.6 km worth of damage.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, like you said, even if AIM was some form of energy, he would have to sample it since it is foreign to him, correct? That may hinder him as well considering that he would have to sample 2.3 million different types of energy, since AIM is different for each person.



Yes, but his mind is extremely fast so idk how long it would take for him to find out. Also the fact he doesn't know that will kill him/her.

edit: That blast won't damage him too much if he is able to get a proper shield up.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 27, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> So pretty much a load of inconsistencies that favor Magneto?



It's not inconsistent if there are tons of high showings. 



> I always saw the bottle effect as putting a magnetic bubble on Jean so she couldn't tap into the earth's power. What's the random scan suppose to mean?



The one that explains that his power is comparable to Jean's?


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jul 27, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> Yes, but his mind is extremely fast so idk how long it would take for him to find out. *Also the fact he doesn't know that will kill him/her*.



That's a good point. How would he know of that weakness...



Veikuri said:


> That blast won't damage him too much if he is able to get a proper shield up.



Then I guess Kazakiri should stick with her atomizing attacks and hax abilities, rather then the abilities that rely on pure power.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 27, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> That's a good point. How would he know of that weakness...



The weakness is basically to destroy something inside of her body. That's a pretty easy to thing to figure out and a very obvious thing to try.


----------



## Veikuri (Jul 27, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> It's not inconsistent if there are tons of high showings.


A lot of those old things either been recton or OOC for him to do. Most are good, but the gravity shit is stupid. A majority of them also only show half of what actually happened and not the big picture.




> The one that explains that his power is comparable to Jean's?



I get that, but what are you getting at?


> The weakness is basically to destroy something inside of her body. That's a pretty easy to thing to figure out and a very obvious thing to try.


I don't know the mechanics of her body and if it's with the 2.3m other espers it will take some time.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 27, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> A lot of those old things either been recton or OOC for him to do.



Show me proof of these retcons. Also in the OBD, characters are bloodlusted by default.



> Most are good, but the gravity shit is stupid. A majority of them also only show half of what actually happened and not the big picture.



It's been stated multiple times that Magneto can control the entire Unified Field Theory. That includes gravity.



> I get that, but what are you getting at?



That he's incredibly powerful and versatile?



> I don't know the mechanics of her body and if it's with the 2.3m other espers it will take some time.



Not really, as it's not proven he needs to analyze and individually counter each one.


----------



## Veikuri (Jul 27, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Show me proof of these retcons. Also in the OBD, characters are bloodlusted by default.


Magneto's powerful mind? Recton. 
Magneto not needing his shield to fend off telepaths? Recton
Magneto being a telepath? Recton
Xorn being Magneto? recton
Magneto killing Jean grey? recton

I don't know every single recton, but there are a bunch. 





> It's been stated multiple times that Magneto can control the entire Unified Field Theory. That includes gravity.


Yeah.. Almost 40 to 50 years ago dude. Show me another scan of Magneto manipulating gravity. I'll wait.



> That he's incredibly powerful and versatile?


 I know this. I just don't put him on a huge pedastal of old feats.





> Not really, as it's not proven he needs to analyze and individually counter each one.




This is pretty recent. This year in fact.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 27, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> Magneto's powerful mind? Recton
> Magneto not needing his shield to fend off telepaths? Recton
> Magneto being a telepath? Recton
> Xorn being Magneto? recton
> ...



Wait, you're talking about things that are retcons instead of things that have been retconned? If a retcon changes continuity, the newer version is canon.

I thought you meant things that we were claiming have been retconned and no longer apply. If it's the opposite, then there's no problem. Also I haven't been using Xorn.



> Yeah.. Almost 40 to 50 years ago dude. Show me another scan of Magneto manipulating gravity. I'll wait.



No, even one of the scans I posted was recent and it said he could. In case you didn't know, the Unified Field Theory is electromagnetism + gravity + the strong and weak nuclear forces.



> I know this. I just don't put him on a huge pedastal of old feats.



If he's done something, that means he's capable of it. It's been 65 years since the US used nuclear bombs in war, does that mean they can't do it now?



> *snip*
> 
> This is pretty recent. This year in fact.



Proteus is a powerful reality warper, who can change the laws of physics. I'm talking about just using energy to crush the core.


----------



## Veikuri (Jul 27, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Wait, you're talking about things that are retcons instead of things that have been retconned? If a retcon changes continuity, the newer version is canon.


Yes, but a person who doesn't really read comics or none at all and go off a feats page then they wouldn't know that Xavier can rape Magneto's mind on a WHIM. It's just he has that superman complex and wouldn't rape someone's mind. Except Magneto recently(10 years ago lol)




> I thought you meant things that we were claiming have been retconned and no longer apply. If it's the opposite, then there's no problem. Also I haven't been using Xorn.


I was talking more in general to your Prime Magneto statement. 



> No, even one of the scans I posted was recent and it said he could. In case you didn't know, the Unified Field Theory is electromagnetism + gravity + the strong and weak nuclear forces.


It was in response to your all things showing in cannon. Not that you posted things that aren't cannon. The biggest one in this thread is whoever posted the Magneto takes over the world. I <3 that picture, but it has no place in a battle. Plus you do know that things outside of the electro fields RAPE his stamina? Kind of like Kakashi using Mangekyou.



> If he's done something, that means he's capable of it. It's been 65 years since the US used nuclear bombs in war, does that mean they can't do it now?



The difference is that the US said they wouldn't use nukes and this is a comic book... 



> Proteus is a powerful reality warper, who can change the laws of physics. I'm talking about just using energy to crush the core.


Did you actually read X Necrosha? He needed to battle her and her to use his powers on him until he could actually do what the scan showed. See here. You only get the feat without the battle. So it makes people think he can do that on a whim.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 27, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> Yes, but a person who doesn't really read comics or none at all and go off a feats page then they wouldn't know that Xavier can rape Magneto's mind on a WHIM. It's just he has that superman complex and wouldn't rape someone's mind. Except Magneto recently(10 years ago lol)



I've seen Mags resist him several times.



> I was talking more in general to your Prime Magneto statement.



That doesn't include Xorn as it's not the same character.



> It was in response to your all things showing in cannon. Not that you posted things that aren't cannon. The biggest one in this thread is whoever posted the Magneto takes over the world. I <3 that picture, but it has no place in a battle. Plus you do know that things outside of the electro fields RAPE his stamina? Kind of like Kakashi using Mangekyou.



He only needs to use it once after he's determined the location of the core.



> The difference is that the US said they wouldn't use nukes and this is a comic book...



Nope, they never said that. There's a general international agreement not to use them, but if things came down to it, they would. Nuclear war was only narrowly avoided several times during the Cold War.

The point is that only one showing is necessary to establish a capability, unless it is massively inconsistent. The fact that Magneto has manipulated gravity, and reliable sources have consistently said that he can, means he can.



> Did you actually read X Necrosha? He needed to battle her and her to use his powers on him until he could actually do what the scan showed. See here. You only get the feat without the battle. So it makes people think he can do that on a whim.



I'm not following what you're trying to say here.


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## God (Jul 27, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> I'm not following what you're trying to say here.



It's the blind man/elephant analogy. When you go by a small piece and not the whole picture, you are bound to get the wrong idea. If you see one scan in a respect thread and not the rest of the fight, something that was done with several other factors might seem to you like something that the character can do easily and is a part of their normal moveset


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## Veikuri (Jul 27, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> I've seen Mags resist him several times.


Magneto himself said that Xavier doesn't hit him with full power. Magneto on another occasion straight GAVE UP once he saw Xavier came back to his sense and said he can simply stop him from using his own powers. Also shown to mind rape him and use Magneto's own power against him. You only see the resists of Xavier not trying to kill Magneto. Right now it comes down to whoever activated their power.




> That doesn't include Xorn as it's not the same character.


Xorn was Magneto.


He only needs to use it once after he's determined the location of the core.




> Nope, they never said that. *There's a general international agreement* not to use them, but if things came down to it, they would. Nuclear war was only narrowly avoided several times during the Cold War.


 The only agreement Magneto made with the world was he wouldn't do any terrorist attacks. What is your point anyway? Your analogy isn't good.




> The point is that only one showing is necessary to establish a capability, unless it is *massively inconsistent*. The fact that Magneto has manipulated gravity, and reliable sources have consistently said that he can, means he can.


Bold for emphasis. Post scans of people saying he can manipulate gravity




> I'm not following what you're trying to say here.


Seeing only one picture of something doesn't show you the capabilities of all of his doing. Just like you think he can simply destroy the core when it isn't anything like he has seen before.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 28, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> Magneto himself said that Xavier doesn't hit him with full power. Magneto on another occasion straight GAVE UP once he saw Xavier came back to his sense and said he can simply stop him from using his own powers. Also shown to mind rape him and use Magneto's own power against him. You only see the resists of Xavier not trying to kill Magneto. Right now it comes down to whoever activated their power.



I have no doubt that an all - out Xavier would beat Magneto in a mental battle. But he can resist.



> Xorn was Magneto.



Only temporarily. That counts as an external powerup which is not used by default



> The only agreement Magneto made with the world was he wouldn't do any terrorist attacks. What is your point anyway? Your analogy isn't good.



My point is that just because a capability hasn't been used often or for a long time, it doesn't mean that it never happened.



> Bold for emphasis. Post scans of people saying he can manipulate gravity





You need to manipulate gravity to create a wormhole





> Seeing only one picture of something doesn't show you the capabilities of all of his doing. Just like you think he can simply destroy the core when it isn't anything like he has seen before.



It sounds similar to psionic energy. Furthermore, if it has a physical existence I'm fairly certain powerful blasts/energy would destroy it or at least disrupt it.


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## Veikuri (Jul 28, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> I have no doubt that an all - out Xavier would beat Magneto in a mental battle. But he can resist.


 If Xavier wanted to mind rape him Magneto can do nothing about it.





> Only temporarily. That counts as an external powerup which is not used by default


Temporarily? More like retconned hard as hell =/




> My point is that just because a capability hasn't been used often or for a long time, it doesn't mean that it never happened.


 Or maybe Marvel threw it away. If you read Mutant Genesis you'd know.





> You need to manipulate gravity to create a wormhole


The American theoretical physicist John Archibald Wheeler coined the term wormhole in 1957; however, in 1921, the German mathematician Hermann Weyl already had proposed the wormhole theory, in connection with mass analysis of *electromagnetic field* energy.

A quick search gave me that. Meaning it also has to do with the EM field.





Okay?




> It sounds similar to psionic energy. Furthermore, if it has a physical existence I'm fairly certain powerful blasts/energy would destroy it or at least disrupt it.


 Are you one of those people who don't take into consideration that the opponent will be fighting while he tries this?


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 28, 2010)

> Yes, but a person who doesn't really read comics or none at all and go off a feats page then they wouldn't know that Xavier can rape Magneto's mind on a WHIM. It's just he has that superman complex and wouldn't rape someone's mind. Except Magneto recently(10 years ago lol)



Yeah but when Magneto resisted Xavier and attacked Storm with thought speed he was'nt a psionic. The fact he can resist him is still a good feat. Look, I can admit Magneto would lose. Magneto, Galactus and recently Thor and Odin are my fav Marvel characters but I sure as hell don't wank them. In OBD unless the version is specified the character gets all their canon feats except those which were based on some external power up like with the use of some device. If a writer wants to wank Magneto in a canon showing then that too is counted. 

No one here has stated Magneto could do everything on a whim. You may be unbiased but you're not understanding how the OBD rules apply. We usually recommend that the version of the character is specified so we don't use every feat even old ones, that's not the case here since no version was specified.


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## Rashou (Jul 28, 2010)

Semi off-topic, but I'm thinking light novel To-Aru verse shouldn't be used in the OBD anymore, what with a lack of actual evidence for their abilities. Plot summaries are good and all, and I trust Greed and Xelloss, but considering we don't have many of the actual novels translated (only 2, last time I checked Baka-tsuki, with like 4 or 5 more partially translated... out of 20) it makes it hard to debate for or against them fairly. There's also the chance that the guy who summarized them misinterpreted events or that there are multiple interpretations as to what happen in some instances. Without more source material translated it seems like a no go for an OBDverse, outside of the manga and anime, of course. 

Just saying.


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## pikachuwei (Jul 28, 2010)

season 2 is coming out so hopefully we will get FUZE = kazakiri animated (shes in light novel 13 though, so if season 2 index is like season 1 and only animates 6 novels, 7 ~ 12.... T__T)

oh and tranquil fury, heres a pic i found of hyouka Kazakiri ( kazakiri in her weak pre artificial angel stage, aka FUZE = kazakiri)

Raw

its not hte best picture to show her hollowness, for that i really recommend you go and watch the anime, but basically her body is just a shell with the AIM core matrix contained in her head (that glowing thing)


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 28, 2010)

I see thank you for posting that pic, but it appears to be quite glaring and that's a major weakess for her opponent to know in advance she's hollow, it would save Magneto on using ineffective attacks and tell him how better to go about the fight. It really depends on whether magneto can affect that or not. I'll give the anime a go since it's used here and what I've heard has caught my interest.


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## pikachuwei (Jul 28, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> I see thank you for posting that pic, but it appears to be quite glaring and that's a major weakess for her opponent to know in advance she's hollow, it would save Magneto on using ineffective attacks and tell him how better to go about the fight. It really depends on whether magneto can affect that or not. I'll give the anime a go since it's used here and what I've heard has caught my interest.



sadly season 1 consists of the 1st 6 light novels which are by far the weakest and most uninteresting, plus the anime waters down many feats from the light novel The plot also hardly moves in season 1 (it really only starts moving in novel 7 lol)  however its still decent as far as anime goes (excluding touma's narutoesque cliche corny inspirational speeches throughout the series.) Season 2 shall hopefuly be much better.


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## Xelloss (Jul 28, 2010)

I normally try to use characters that already have feats... gabriel is a weird case while he does have feats on the anime those where downplayed a lot.

But is also the reason why I dont like to use the likes of Aqua, Terra, Fiama, Knight leader, Laura and a lot of the high tiers.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jul 28, 2010)

Rashou said:


> Semi off-topic, but I'm thinking light novel To-Aru verse shouldn't be used in the OBD anymore, what with a lack of actual evidence for their abilities. Plot summaries are good and all, and I trust Greed and Xelloss, but considering we don't have many of the actual novels translated (only 2, last time I checked Baka-tsuki, with like 4 or 5 more partially translated... out of 20) it makes it hard to debate for or against them fairly. There's also the chance that the guy who summarized them misinterpreted events or that there are multiple interpretations as to what happen in some instances. Without more source material translated it seems like a no go for an OBDverse, outside of the manga and anime, of course.
> 
> Just saying.



Actually, Volumes 7, 9, 12, 10, are fully translated. Volume 15 is partially translated, as is volume 20 last I checked. and Volume 13 may as well be fully translated since only a few sections are missing. Volume 8 is halfway translated.

It's actually fairly usable, even though the majority of the volumes are not translated. We have much less usable series in the OBD, and yet we still use them.



Tranquil Fury said:


> I see thank you for posting that pic, but it appears to be quite glaring and that's a major weakess for her opponent to know in advance she's hollow, it would save Magneto on using ineffective attacks and tell him how better to go about the fight. It really depends on whether magneto can affect that or not. I'll give the anime a go since it's used here and what I've heard has caught my interest.



I think the fact that it glows was filler. The core of the AIM burst fetus, which is another artificial angel with a similar shaped core, didn't glow like that. The fact that she is hollow is kind of glaring though. Mind you, he still has to get past her 100km long wings to attack her and find out she is hollow. And Move Pointer may still work as others have stated.


----------



## Veikuri (Jul 28, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Yeah but when Magneto resisted Xavier and attacked Storm with thought speed he was'nt a psionic. The fact he can resist him is still a good feat. Look, I can admit Magneto would lose. Magneto, Galactus and recently Thor and Odin are my fav Marvel characters but I sure as hell don't wank them. In OBD unless the version is specified the character gets all their canon feats except those which were based on some external power up like with the use of some device. If a writer wants to wank Magneto in a canon showing then that too is counted.


 If you're talking UXM #150 then yes, he was a latent telepath during that time. 



> No one here has stated Magneto could do everything on a whim. You may be unbiased but you're not understanding how the OBD rules apply. We usually recommend that the version of the character is specified so we don't use every feat even old ones, that's not the case here since no version was specified.


Iirc people were saying he could just rip out her core.


----------



## Rashou (Jul 28, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Actually, Volumes 7, 9, 12, 10, are fully translated. Volume 15 is partially translated, as is volume 20 last I checked. and Volume 13 may as well be fully translated since only a few sections are missing. Volume 8 is halfway translated.
> 
> It's actually fairly usable, even though the majority of the volumes are not translated. We have much less usable series in the OBD, and yet we still use them.


Maybe it's just FUZE=Kazakiri (and the other people that Xelloss mentioned) who should be avoided. Since I'm guessing these volumes don't cover much of any of the feats from these guys. 

I honestly can't think of any other series where the source material was less than half translated and we still use it in the OBD. The closest would probably be Saint Seiya episode G, but scans are still available (where as we can't get excerpts from the light novels, etc. here) or Getbackers, but, again, scans were still possible to find. Oh, Kongoh Banchou too, but it's not used that much anymore (and wasn't used much to begin with).


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jul 28, 2010)

Rashou said:


> Maybe it's just FUZE=Kazakiri (and the other people that Xelloss mentioned) who should be avoided. Since I'm guessing these volumes don't cover much of any of the feats from these guys.


Actually, FUZE is in volume 13 and that is almost completely translated. She showed her antimagic capabilities in that volume by almost killing Vent just by existing. And though she has no actual "feats" of her using all other espers powers, it is a extremely logical assumption that she can, since she runs on almost exactly the same system as the AIM Burst, which has the 10,000 powers of the power users he was hooked up to. Her existance itself is basically because of other people's powers.




> I honestly can't think of any other series where the source material was less than half translated and we still use it in the OBD. The closest would probably be Saint Seiya episode G, but scans are still available (where as we can't get excerpts from the light novels, etc. here) or Getbackers, but, again, scans were still possible to find. Oh, Kongoh Banchou too, but it's not used that much anymore (and wasn't used much to begin with).



I believe I remember some other series that aren't translated being used, but if not then whatever.


----------



## pikachuwei (Jul 29, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Actually, FUZE is in volume 13 and that is almost completely translated. She showed her antimagic capabilities in that volume by almost killing Vent just by existing. And though she has no actual "feats" of her using all other espers powers, it is a extremely logical assumption that she can, since she runs on almost exactly the same system as the AIM Burst, which has the 10,000 powers of the power users he was hooked up to. Her existance itself is basically because of other people's powers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i mean isnt hte imaginary districts themselves formed by the Student's AIM? and isnt kazakiri the manistifaetion (spelling ?) of the imaginary districts?


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jul 29, 2010)

pikachuwei said:


> i mean isnt hte imaginary districts themselves formed by the Student's AIM? and isnt kazakiri the manistifaetion (spelling ?) of the imaginary districts?



It's something like that I guess.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 1, 2010)

So, What's the conclusion for this thread?


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 1, 2010)

Kazakiri wins imo.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 1, 2010)

Fucking Magneto, how do his powers work?

Anyway,



Veikuri said:


> If Xavier wanted to mind rape him Magneto can do nothing about it.



He could resist it for long enough to hurt Xavier with his powers. After all, if the hero can beat the villain effortlessly, it's not much of a comic.



> Temporarily? More like retconned hard as hell =/



Same effect



> Or maybe Marvel threw it away. If you read Mutant Genesis you'd know.



You'd need evidence of that though.



> The American theoretical physicist John Archibald Wheeler coined the term wormhole in 1957; however, in 1921, the German mathematician Hermann Weyl already had proposed the wormhole theory, in connection with mass analysis of *electromagnetic field* energy.
> 
> A quick search gave me that. Meaning it also has to do with the EM field.



You obviously don't understand the science. A wormhole is a stabilized black hole, which can't exist without gravity.



A theory of quantum gravity is necessary to understand if they're possible.



> *snip*
> 
> Okay?



That's just a character history. It doesn't go in-depth about his powers like the link I provided does.



> Are you one of those people who don't take into consideration that the opponent will be fighting while he tries this?



Of course not but it's already been proven his shields can take anything she can dish out.



Veikuri said:


> Kazakiri wins imo.



Wrong.


----------



## MisterShin (Aug 1, 2010)

I think we all agree Fuze=Kazakiri wins

Magneto can only survive as long as his shield last.

Also can someone confirm if Magneto can do powerful attacks whilst still holding his shield, im sure he cannot due to the concentation involved with maintaining the shield.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 1, 2010)

MisterShin said:


> I think we all agree Fuze=Kazakiri wins



Wrong.



> Magneto can only survive as long as his shield last.



Which will be more than enough.



> Also can someone confirm if Magneto can do powerful attacks whilst still holding his shield, im sure he cannot due to the concentation involved with maintaining the shield.



He doesn't need to concentrate, it's automatic.


----------



## MisterShin (Aug 1, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Which will be more than enough.


Fuze=Kazakiri has more stamina than Magneto

I dont find it possible for Fuze=Kazakiri to lose this match, she has Precog, which will alert her of incoming attacks and stuff.

She has many forcefields, she has many sense to detect people and attacks incase they can bypass precog.

She can manipulate many energies (elemental, EM, psychic), rendering those types of attacks useless.

She has High speed regeneration equal to or superior to this.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 1, 2010)

Does anyone have a counter for Kazakiri just using Move Pointer on him? Ive seen scans of Magneto defending against objects getting sent towards him, but not of him being able to get past his own body parts getting teleported out of his body.


----------



## Darklyre (Aug 1, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Does anyone have a counter for Kazakiri just using Move Pointer on him? Ive seen scans of Magneto defending against objects getting sent towards him, but not of him being able to get past his own body parts getting teleported out of his body.



Magneto's shield prevents teleportation from both inside and out. It's why Nightcrawler has never been able to teleport Magneto away from a fight.


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 1, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Fucking Magneto, how do his powers work?
> 
> Anyway,
> 
> ...


God Loves, Man Kills. Magneto said himself that Xavier doesn't fight anyone at full power. Xavier's mind got taken over and shot a ful powered psi blast and Magneto couldn't even walk after that. This is with his shields up. 

Eve of Destruction: Magneto says if Xavier can easily stop Magneto from using his own mutant power if he wanted to and started to yell at him for only using that power against him.

Secret Wars: Xavier says something like forgive me spider-man and mind wipes him.

It's pretty known that Xavier doesn't go full power against his opponents. 





> Same effect


No, Xorn actually was Magneto until Marvel said no thank you. It's a fact.




> You'd need evidence of that though.


How would I possibly give evidence when there have been times where his telepathic abilities would help him out a lot yet he doesn't use them? 





> You obviously don't understand the science. A wormhole is a stabilized black hole, which can't exist without gravity.



"The American theoretical physicist John Archibald Wheeler coined the term wormhole in 1957; however, in 1921, the German mathematician Hermann Weyl already had proposed the wormhole theory, in connection with mass analysis of electromagnetic field energy"

It falls under electromagnetic field even if gravity is needed.



> A theory of quantum gravity is necessary to understand if they're possible.


 This is Marvel.





> That's just a character history. It doesn't go in-depth about his powers like the link I provided does.


And I'm reading it why?




> Of course not but it's already been proven his shields can take anything she can dish out.


 You do know his shields and every other shield in Marvel universe gets weaker as people hit them? 




> Wrong.


 there's no way to beat her/him from what I've seen she can do. 





~Greed~ said:


> Does anyone have a counter for Kazakiri just using Move Pointer on him? Ive seen scans of Magneto defending against objects getting sent towards him, but not of him being able to get past his own body parts getting teleported out of his body.



I'm pretty sure someone has asked in the X-Men or comic if someone can teleport through his shield and it was a no, but light goes right past his shields. Sadly he can manipulate light.


----------



## MisterShin (Aug 1, 2010)

Darklyre said:


> Magneto's shield prevents teleportation from both inside and out. It's why Nightcrawler has never been able to teleport Magneto away from a fight.


We know you cannot teleport something *into* the shield.

We dont know if Magneto can stop someone teleporting something *out* of the shield.

E.g. Fuze=Kazakiri can teleport Magneto heart and brain out of his body, whilst his shield is on.

If Magneto can stop people teleporting his heart/brain out of his body with his shield on, then i would like proof.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Aug 1, 2010)

> there's no way to beat her/him from what I've seen she can do



Which is what? one move which is still up in the air as to whether it will work or not?


----------



## Fang (Aug 1, 2010)

MisterShin said:


> We know you cannot teleport something *into* the shield.
> 
> We dont know if Magneto can stop someone teleporting something *out* of the shield.
> 
> ...



He's stopping teleporting both ways.

Don't wank it.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 1, 2010)

TWF said:


> He's stopping teleporting both ways.
> 
> Don't wank it.



Proof please. I've only seen him stopping things getting teleported into his shields.


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 1, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Proof please. I've only seen him stopping things getting teleported into his shields.



I can go read X Necrosha again, but IIRC Proteus was able to change the iron in Magneto's blood to lead. So he was able to fuck with his body i'm just not sure if he had a shield up. I'm not home right now so can't confirm if he had his shield up. I wll be home in a few days if this thread is still up and running. Going to try and see if I can find the scans of the fight tho.



Tranquil Fury said:


> Which is what? one move which is still up in the air as to whether it will work or not?



The fact she can insta regen from anything. Also the only way to defeat her is destroying her core which doesn't seem like it's made out of energy. Plus idk if OBD rules give Magneto auto-knowledge on her core. Almost forgot she will eventually break his shields.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Aug 1, 2010)

That depends on whether or not he could dispose of her in time before his shields go, her attacks don't seem to compare to what he's blocked. The core part is/was being discussed. Magneto is bloodlusted as is she so depending on whether or not he can affect her core matters.


----------



## Xelloss (Aug 1, 2010)

OP didnt give any side prior knowlagde to any side so we asume no, they fight with any intelligence they get during the match.


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 1, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> That depends on whether or not he could dispose of her in time before his shields go, her attacks don't seem to compare to what he's blocked. The core part is/was being discussed. Magneto is bloodlusted as is she so depending on whether or not he can affect her core matters.



And how will he harm her?


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 2, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Does anyone have a counter for Kazakiri just using Move Pointer on him? Ive seen scans of Magneto defending against objects getting sent towards him, but not of him being able to get past his own body parts getting teleported out of his body.



You're being asinine in asking for proof. If it works one way, there's no reason it wouldn't work the other way. Otherwise I can ask you to prove that her powers work on Thursdays.



Veikuri said:


> God Loves, Man Kills. Magneto said himself that Xavier doesn't fight anyone at full power. Xavier's mind got taken over and shot a ful powered psi blast and Magneto couldn't even walk after that. This is with his shields up.



Taken over by who? Which issue was this? 



> Eve of Destruction: Magneto says if Xavier can easily stop Magneto from using his own mutant power if he wanted to and started to yell at him for only using that power against him.



Scan please.



> Secret Wars: Xavier says something like forgive me spider-man and mind wipes him.



He erased Spider-Man's memory of fighting the X-Men. How is that relevant?



> It's pretty known that Xavier doesn't go full power against his opponents.



Magneto usually doesn't either, though.



> No, Xorn actually was Magneto until Marvel said no thank you. It's a fact.



Which is why I said it was temporary. Point is, it's not relevant anymore.



> How would I possibly give evidence when there have been times where his telepathic abilities would help him out a lot yet he doesn't use them?



First of all, we were talking about gravity manipulation, not telepathy. Magneto on his own doesn't have offensive telepathy, and I never claimed he did. Second of all "this power would have been useful in certain situations, but he didn't use it, therefore he doesn't have it, even though he's actually demonstrated it previously" is an absolutely terrible argument. You're assuming every fight is completely free of CIS and PIS and everyone always uses their powers to their maximum potential (you even admitted earlier in this post that wasn't true, as you talked about how Xavier always holds back). Does Superman suddenly not have super speed because he doesn't use it sometimes? 



> "The American theoretical physicist John Archibald Wheeler coined the term wormhole in 1957; however, in 1921, the German mathematician Hermann Weyl already had proposed the wormhole theory, in connection with mass analysis of electromagnetic field energy"
> 
> It falls under electromagnetic field even if gravity is needed.



If gravity is needed, explain how he did it without gravity.



> This is Marvel.



Uh-huh, and while we take liberties when analyzing fiction if something clearly defies the laws of physics, whenever a real-world phenomena (such as a wormhole) appears, we analyze it using real - world science unless it is specifically stated or shown not to apply in that instance.



> And I'm reading it why?



It talks about how he can manipulate gravity.



> You do know his shields and every other shield in Marvel universe gets weaker as people hit them?



First of all, not true. The High Evolutionary once created a forcefield that absorbed energy from everything that attacked it, so it actually became stronger as people hit it. Not relevant to this match, but it disproves your statement. Second of all, if she's allowed to just pound on his shield indefinitely while he does nothing, then sure it's going to break eventually. But that's not the scenario.



> there's no way to beat her/him from what I've seen she can do.



Just rip apart all the matter and energy in her body, it will get the core too.



Veikuri said:


> I can go read X Necrosha again, but IIRC Proteus was able to change the iron in Magneto's blood to lead. So he was able to fuck with his body i'm just not sure if he had a shield up. I'm not home right now so can't confirm if he had his shield up. I wll be home in a few days if this thread is still up and running. Going to try and see if I can find the scans of the fight tho.



Proteus is a reality warper. Just because reality warping can bypass something doesn't mean that mere teleportation will.



> The fact she can insta regen from anything. Also the only way to defeat her is destroying her core which doesn't seem like it's made out of energy.



It's described as energy in the very source Greed linked to. He's just bullshitting by saying it's not. If he wants to he can open a wormhole and send the core into a star or a black hole.


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 4, 2010)

> Taken over by who? Which issue was this?


God Loves, Man kill... Scan below is self explanatory 



> Scan please.







> He erased Spider-Man's memory of fighting the X-Men. How is that relevant?


Because he holds back a lot.



> Magneto usually doesn't either, though.


Unless it's a hero/good guy he is fighting he usually does. It's not CIS/PIS he doesn't kill the X-Men either.




> Which is why I said it was temporary. Point is, it's not relevant anymore.


 Someone or you asked for a retcon and I gave you one. How is it suddenly not relevant anymore?




> First of all, we were talking about gravity manipulation, not telepathy. Magneto on his own doesn't have offensive telepathy, and I never claimed he did. Second of all "this power would have been useful in certain situations, but he didn't use it, therefore he doesn't have it, even though he's actually demonstrated it previously" is an absolutely terrible argument. You're assuming every fight is completely free of CIS and PIS and everyone always uses their powers to their maximum potential (you even admitted earlier in this post that wasn't true, as you talked about how Xavier always holds back). Does Superman suddenly not have super speed because he doesn't use it sometimes?


DC=/=Marvel, but you have horrible analogies. If Superman stops using his super speed for 40 years and only shows he can use super speed in an emulated room aka "Danger Room" then I'd call it out too. Difference is that Superman uses speed as Magneto uses metal. 




> If gravity is needed, explain how he did it without gravity.


Where did Marvel say gravity was needed? 

Let me help you out 

*Spoiler*: __ 







Scan of where Magneto's secondary mutation is gravity manipulation? I'll wait.



> Uh-huh, and while we take liberties when analyzing fiction if something clearly defies the laws of physics, whenever a real-world phenomena (such as a wormhole) appears, we analyze it using real - world science unless it is specifically stated or shown not to apply in that instance.


Welcome to Marvel's inconsistencies 



> It talks about how he can manipulate gravity.



Marvel.WIKIA?   GO!



> First of all, not true. The High Evolutionary once created a forcefield that absorbed energy from everything that attacked it, so it actually became stronger as people hit it. *Not relevant* to this match, but it disproves your statement. Second of all, if she's allowed to just pound on his shield indefinitely while he does nothing, then sure it's going to break eventually. But that's not the scenario.



Nuff said. Try and be logical for once.



> Just rip apart all the matter and energy in her body, it will get the core too.


Ugh someone in this thread said she wasn't made out of energy or something I believe or didn't have iron in her blood.




> Proteus is a reality warper. Just because reality warping can bypass something doesn't mean that mere teleportation will.


Light can also bypass his shields too. 




> It's described as energy in the very source Greed linked to. He's just bullshitting by saying it's not. If he wants to he can open a wormhole and send the core into a star or a black hole.



Which?


----------



## Kurou (Aug 4, 2010)

^/Scene. 
























































ACT 2 ==>


----------



## Id (Aug 4, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Proof please. I've only seen him stopping things getting teleported into his shields.



He once kept the X-Men at bay within a force field, Nightcrawler could not teleport out of it.

*Spoiler*: __ 




It's a peaceful day...the weather is beautiful according to Nightcrawler.(Don't worry this will become relevant as we move along)

From a distance: 
- Magneto tears a ship apart. 
- Raps Storm up in a piece of metal and prevents her from using her lightning by locking up the bio-electric current in her body.
- Inhibits Nightcrawler from teleporting
- Now here's the relevance...possibly manipulates the size of that wave magnetically.
-Sets up a forcefield around Moira's lab...of solidified air, knocking Colossus backwards and preventing the X-Men from proceeding any further.
-Rips a junk of the ground out using a forcefield bubble and hurls it towards a wall.
-Causes an Iron Door to glow red hot...and then white hot...eventually causing it to explode.


----------



## Lucifeller (Aug 4, 2010)

MisterShin said:


> Also can someone confirm if Magneto can do powerful attacks whilst still holding his shield, im sure he cannot due to the concentation involved with maintaining the shield.



In his very first appearance Mags had no trouble whatsoever holding up his shields while throwing half a military base at the original X-Men. He only retreated because Xavier showed up.

I should also probably point out that he INJURED A COSMIC ENTITY - namely the Phoenix Force itself, killing the host was just icing on the cake - to the point that even the not cosmically aware realized the universe had suddenly gone very, very wrong.

And the one time his powers go out of control (in X-Men: The End, when he's overloaded by one of the Imperial Guard members), he shorts out and kills everything with a nervous system on the entire Shi'ar throneworld. Which is basically anything above bacteria level.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 5, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> God Loves, Man kill... Scan below is self explanatory
> 
> *snip*



In your first scan, it mentions that some device was amplifying Xavier's powers, and also that he used every last bit of his power at once (which would have exhausted him too), and Magneto still wasn't taken out (weakened, yes, but still kicking). He even had enough power left to attack a group of people.

In the second scan it is implied that Xavier slowly wormed his way into Magneto's mind over a long period of time, without him knowing.

Show me Charles completely routing Magneto in a direct confrontation.



> Because he holds back a lot.



Okay, and how does the ability to mindwipe Spider-Man translate to the ability to to do the same thing to Magneto?



> Unless it's a hero/good guy he is fighting he usually does. It's not CIS/PIS he doesn't kill the X-Men either.



Some of the X-Men are very powerful, but he has had the opportunity to kill many of them and didn't take it.



> Someone or you asked for a retcon and I gave you one. How is it suddenly not relevant anymore?



Because it was retconned? Look, my point is that I'm not using the Xorn powers in my argument on this thread, so bringing it up was irrelevant.



> DC=/=Marvel



Same logic applies.



> but you have horrible analogies. If Superman stops using his super speed for 40 years and only shows he can use super speed in an emulated room aka "Danger Room" then I'd call it out too. Difference is that Superman uses speed as Magneto uses metal.



The point is that if a character demonstrates an ability which can reasonably exist within their powerset, and there is no evidence they have lost that ability, it can be used. 



> Where did Marvel say gravity was needed?
> 
> Let me help you out
> *snip*
> Scan of where Magneto's secondary mutation is gravity manipulation? I'll wait.



That's an old scan, before his powers were revealed to be able to manipulate the unified field theory.



> Welcome to Marvel's inconsistencies



The incident I'm referring to involves a wormhole. A wormhole is defined by science. The moment Marvel decides to use a scientific term, their material becomes subject to science. If it had been explicitly explained that the wormhole they used was not the same as a RL wormhole, you would have an argument, but you don't. For example, it is mentioned in some comics that the words "dimension" and "universe" can be used interchangeably, thus they are admitting that their dimensions don't fit the scientific definition of the word. However, no such thing is present in this scenario. The fact remains: You can't create a wormhole without manipulating gravity.



> Marvel.WIKIA?  GO!



Didn't I already explain that the entry there was mostly a biography and didn't go into very much detail about his powers?



> Nuff said. Try and be logical for once.



You're the one who made a false statement. I just disproved it.



> Ugh someone in this thread said she wasn't made out of energy or something I believe or didn't have iron in her blood.



Iron doesn't matter, he's demonstrated the ability to disrupt nearly all types of matter and energy. If he can manipulate cosmic energy and the Phoenix Force, why can't he fuck up her core?



> Light can also bypass his shields too.



Only when he allows it to.

Link removed



> Which?



Either? Does it matter?


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 5, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> In your first scan, it mentions that some device was amplifying Xavier's powers, and also that he used every last bit of his power at once (which would have exhausted him too), and Magneto still wasn't taken out (weakened, yes, but still kicking). He even had enough power left to attack a group of people.


Scan of it exhausting Xavier. He wasn't attacking the people just holding them off. He also said he can't hold them off for long. Mere humans. He also cannot walk. 



> In the second scan it is implied that Xavier slowly wormed his way into Magneto's mind over a long period of time, without him knowing.



Actually false. He is using his Magnetic powers a page or two before seeing Xavier and the next scan WOLVERINE guts him. This is after seeing Xavier. Stop twisting his words.



> Show me Charles completely routing Magneto in a direct confrontation.


Magneto gets mind raped by Xavier twice in Fatal Attractions when he gets angry. 



> Okay, and how does the ability to mindwipe Spider-Man translate to the ability to to do the same thing to Magneto?


It doesn't. It shows he doesn't like to take advantage of his powers. Scan of Magneto doing this? Only time I ever see Magneto feeling bad is when he almost kills a mutant. 




> Some of the X-Men are very powerful, but he has had the opportunity to kill many of them and didn't take it.


 Why would Magneto kill an X-Man?




> Because it was retconned? Look, my point is that I'm not using the Xorn powers in my argument on this thread, so bringing it up was irrelevant.


 Xorn's powers were Magneto's powers until the retcon.



> Same logic applies.






> The point is that if a character demonstrates an ability which can reasonably exist within their powerset, and there is no evidence they have lost that ability, it can be used.


That's just stupid. Like in a recent thread Spider-man dodged a bolt of lightning and people believe he is a casual lightning dodger. Which is obviously false. People should use consistent scans. Not a scan of a man training a bunch of kids in a emulated room. 




> That's an old scan, before his powers were revealed to be able to manipulate the unified field theory.


Scan of Magneto having a secondary mutation. 




> The incident I'm referring to involves a wormhole. A wormhole is defined by science. The moment Marvel decides to use a scientific term, their material becomes subject to science. If it had been explicitly explained that the wormhole they used was not the same as a RL wormhole, you would have an argument, but you don't. For example, it is mentioned in some comics that the words "dimension" and "universe" can be used interchangeably, thus they are admitting that their dimensions don't fit the scientific definition of the word. However, no such thing is present in this scenario. The fact remains: You can't create a wormhole without manipulating gravity.


 Magneto obviously did. Same reason why he can manipulate fire ice lightning earth metal. Same reason why he can be a telepath. Same reason why can use forcefields. Blah blah blah. He is the "Master of Magnetism" for a reason. I also showed you that electromagnetism is used. That can be the key why he can.  




> Didn't I already explain that the entry there was mostly a biography and didn't go into very much detail about his powers?


 and comics or gtfo. Let me use naruto.wikia to prove points in bd threads 



> You're the one who made a false statement. I just disproved it.


 What did you disprove? 



> Iron doesn't matter, he's demonstrated the ability to disrupt nearly all types of matter and energy. If he can manipulate cosmic energy and the Phoenix Force, why can't he fuck up her core?


/sigh scan of him manipulating cosmic energy and the PF.. Also he is unfamiliar with her core so it will take him time to even find out if he can.



> Only when he allows it to.
> 
> Link removed


Do you even read the comics or just one scan of each issue? 
They planned for that to happen. 



> Either? Does it matter?


I didn't see where it said it was energy so link?


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 5, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> Scan of it exhausting Xavier.



It said it took all of his power, so it's just common sense.



> He wasn't attacking the people just holding them off. He also said he can't hold them off for long. Mere humans. He also cannot walk.



Still enough to shoot lightning, the point is that he wasn't fully incapacitated.



> Actually false. He is using his Magnetic powers a page or two before seeing Xavier and the next scan WOLVERINE guts him. This is after seeing Xavier. Stop twisting his words.



Just because he was capable of using his powers doesn't mean that he wasn't being mindfucked. After all, he was still using them in the first scan after he got blasted.



> Magneto gets mind raped by Xavier twice in Fatal Attractions when he gets angry.



Scans please.



> It doesn't. It shows he doesn't like to take advantage of his powers. Scan of Magneto doing this? Only time I ever see Magneto feeling bad is when he almost kills a mutant.



Doing what, holding back?

Here you go:


 (this also states he can manipulate gravity)



> Why would Magneto kill an X-Man?



If they were trying to kill him, or interfere with one of his plans.



> Xorn's powers were Magneto's powers until the retcon.



But they're not anymore. And I'm not using them. So what's your point?



> That's just stupid. Like in a recent thread Spider-man dodged a bolt of lightning and people believe he is a casual lightning dodger. Which is obviously false. People should use consistent scans. Not a scan of a man training a bunch of kids in a emulated room.



Spider-Man has a little thing called spider sense, aka precognition. It allows him to see what is going to happen before it does, and react to it. That's how he can dodge lightning.



> Scan of Magneto having a secondary mutation.



It's the same mutation, it's just more versatile than he originally thought.



> Magneto obviously did. Same reason why he can manipulate fire ice lightning earth metal. Same reason why he can be a telepath. Same reason why can use forcefields. Blah blah blah. He is the "Master of Magnetism" for a reason. I also showed you that electromagnetism is used. That can be the key why he can.



It can't be done without gravity. He did it, therefore he manipulated gravity. How hard is it to grasp this concept?  



> and comics or gtfo. Let me use naruto.wikia to prove points in bd threads



The site I used gets its information directly from the comics, however it's not essential to my argument, so I'll drop it if you wish.



> What did you disprove?



That every forcefield in Marvel gets weaker whenever it is attacked.



> /sigh scan of him manipulating cosmic energy and the PF.. Also he is unfamiliar with her core so it will take him time to even find out if he can.



I posted the Phoenix scans earlier in the thread, but if you insist, here they are again:





Link removed

He was unfamiliar with a lot of stuff before he fought it but still managed to manipulate it.



> Do you even read the comics or just one scan of each issue?
> They planned for that to happen.



He blocked photons. Photons are light. Therefore, he can block light. Where is your point?



> I didn't see where it said it was energy so link?



I was talking about using a wormhole to send it to a star or a black hole.

Also, since you asked:



(Emphasis Mine)


> An Involuntary Movement (AIM)  is a term used to refer to the phenomena in which an esper involuntarily produces an invisible *energy* field that all espers involuntarily produce


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 5, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> It said it took all of his power, so it's just common sense.


 Speculation.





> Still enough to shoot lightning, the point is that he wasn't fully incapacitated.


 That's not lightning as Magneto can't summon lightning. It's just his magnetism. 





> Just because he was capable of using his powers doesn't mean that he wasn't being mindfucked. After all, he was still using them in the first scan after he got blasted.


 What? Are you trying to say Xavier didn't shut his mutant power off or forced him not to use it?





> Scans please.







> Doing what, holding back?
> 
> Here you go:
> 
> ...



to reiterate: "Unless it's a *hero/good guy* he is fighting he usually does. It's not CIS/PIS he doesn't kill the X-Men either." 




> If they were trying to kill him, or interfere with one of his plans.


 Unless you're talking about Silver Age Magneto he rarely ever wants to kill the X-Men. Only time he did was when he was turned into an infant and the X-Men let one of their friends(Miora) take care of him. He felt humiliated. Other than that he doesn't really fight the X-Men as they fight him.  



> But they're not anymore. And I'm not using them. So what's your point?


That someone asked for retcons of Magneto and I listed one. Why do you keep bringing Xorn up then?




> Spider-Man has a little thing called spider sense, aka precognition. It allows him to see what is going to happen before it does, and react to it. That's how he can dodge lightning.


  Are you really suggesting he is a casual lightning dodger? If so you clearly don't know anything of Marvel and you don't need to read comics to know that.



> It's the same mutation, it's just more versatile than he originally thought.


It's obviously not the same mutation if he has two powers.





> It can't be done without gravity. He did it, therefore he manipulated gravity. How hard is it to grasp this concept?


 Possibly he did it with the gravity around him. Who knows. We do have gravity on earth. Ya know?





> The site I used gets its information directly from the comics, however it's not essential to my argument, so I'll drop it if you wish.


If marvel.com doesn't have it then it was either retcon or something.



> That every forcefield in Marvel gets weaker whenever it is attacked.


Okay captain literal.




> I posted the Phoenix scans earlier in the thread, but if you insist, here they are again:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He used the bottle effect. Why can't you see this?




> He was unfamiliar with a lot of stuff before he fought it but still managed to manipulate it.


 Like?



> He blocked photons. Photons are light. Therefore, he can block light. Where is your point?


She let him do it.




> I was talking about using a wormhole to send it to a star or a black hole.
> 
> Also, since you asked:
> 
> ...


Was that so hard?


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 5, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> Speculation.



No, just basic logic. If you use up all of your power, you're going to be exhausted, unless you have infinite stamina.



> That's not lightning as Magneto can't summon lightning. It's just his magnetism.



First of all, yes he can.



You don't even have an excuse for this one, as lightning can easily be created with his original base powerset.

Second of all, it looked like lightning in the scan to me.



> What? Are you trying to say Xavier didn't shut his mutant power off or forced him not to use it?



No, I'm saying that Xavier was doing it covertly when he was unaware of it, not in a direct clash of wills.



> *snip*



The text in those scans is too small for me to read. Do you have them in better resolution?



> to reiterate: "Unless it's a *hero/good guy* he is fighting he usually does. It's not CIS/PIS he doesn't kill the X-Men either."



Xavier doesn't count as a good guy? Also the second scan states he holds back in general.



> Unless you're talking about Silver Age Magneto he rarely ever wants to kill the X-Men.



Silver age is still canon, there was no continuity reboot in Marvel like there was in DC.



> Only time he did was when he was turned into an infant and the X-Men let one of their friends(Miora) take care of him. He felt humiliated.



Yes, I saw that. Funny story.



> Other than that he doesn't really fight the X-Men as they fight him.



So you've read every comic he's ever been in and you know that was the only time? 



> That someone asked for retcons of Magneto and I listed one. Why do you keep bringing Xorn up then?



You claimed the material I was using was retconned. You're the one bringing him up.



> Are you really suggesting he is a casual lightning dodger? If so you clearly don't know anything of Marvel and you don't need to read comics to know that.





Let me see if I can explain this to you again: Spider-Man has precognition. This means he can see things before they happen. So if a lightning bolt is going to be fired at him, he can dodge it by moving *before* it is actually fired. Meaning he doesn't have to be anywhere near as fast as it to dodge it.



> It's obviously not the same mutation if he has two powers.



It's one power, it's just a very versatile power with many applications.



> Possibly he did it with the gravity around him. Who knows. We do have gravity on earth. Ya know?



That would still entail manipulating gravity. Notice I never claimed he could simply generate gravity from nothing.



> If marvel.com doesn't have it then it was either retcon or something.



The Marvel.com bios don't go indepth into the powers and abilities of characters, I can show you scans of Silver Surfer, Thor, etc. doing tons of stuff that isn't listed on their bios there.



> Okay captain literal.



Hey, you made the claim, I just responded to it.



> He used the bottle effect. Why can't you see this?



And? He still resisted her attacks, made her expend her power, and then drained it. You asked for scans of him manipulating the Phoenix Force, that's exactly what I gave you. How he did it shouldn't matter.



> Like?



Uni-Power. Power Cosmic. Phoenix Force. Mjolnir. Proteus' power. etc.



> She let him do it.



Photons are photons. If he can block them, it means he can block light. Dazzler's power is to turn sound into light. Unless you're suggesting that what she hit him with some some kind of fake light, you have no argument.



> Was that so hard?



That link has been posted previously in this thread, you know.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 5, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> She does, novel 21 most of those power are fairly useless, and also she and accelerator are different in ways, she is a mass of AIM given form and counciness, also she is by no means magic immune as she consume AIM to sustain herself.


Where did you get that info xelloss? I'm interested in this. I just edited out those abilities from her wiki profile since I didn't think she used them. But if she did then I guess it should be changed back.


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 5, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> No, just basic logic. If you use up all of your power, you're going to be exhausted, unless you have infinite stamina.





> First of all, yes he can.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't even have an excuse for this one, as lightning can easily be created with his original base powerset.


Can we stop with the half-assery? Storm created the Lightning and he sent it right back to her. This is what you get when you only read one scan of an issue. Do you even read these issues?

*Spoiler*: __ 










> Second of all, it looked like lightning in the scan to me.


 That's cool. It's not.




> No, I'm saying that Xavier was doing it covertly when he was unaware of it, not in a direct clash of wills.


In Eve of Destruction? If so, then no.



> The text in those scans is too small for me to read. Do you have them in better resolution?


I just did a print screen, so no. You can just look at the pictures.



> Xavier doesn't count as a good guy? Also the second scan states he holds back in general.


What?



> Silver age is still canon, there was no continuity reboot in Marvel like there was in DC.


Yes there was. Ask any Magneto fan the difference between Silver Age Magneto and Claremont Magneto.




> So you've read every comic he's ever been in and you know that was the only time?


 Most of them that are in the Uncanny/X-Men vol 2. Feel free to post any I haven't read. I love to read issues I haven't, but from what I've seen it goes like this. "Magneto does something, X-Men fight him, He asks why, they keep attacking, he either beats them up and tells them to leave or loses". Like I said the infant story is the only one where he said he wanted to kill the X-Men. You can even see by the way he fights them he only does so to KO them. 

He wants them on his side or succeed. Not dead.




> You claimed the material I was using was retconned. You're the one bringing him up.


 You or someone else asked for some of Magneto's retcons so I listed them. Nuff said. You went and picked out Xorn out of the 3-5 I listed.




> Let me see if I can explain this to you again: Spider-Man has precognition. This means he can see things before they happen. So if a lightning bolt is going to be fired at him, he can dodge it by moving *before* it is actually fired. *Meaning he doesn't have to be anywhere near as fast* as it to dodge it.


  So you agree he isn't a casual lightning dodger? From going by that thread even he was shocked he could dodge it. There is a difference in dodging and being fast enough to dodge it. 




> It's one power, it's just a very versatile power with many applications.
> 
> 
> 
> That would still entail manipulating gravity. Notice I never claimed he could simply generate gravity from nothing.


So you agree it is electromagnetic wormhole he is using?



> The Marvel.com bios don't go indepth into the powers and abilities of characters, I can show you scans of Silver Surfer, Thor, etc. doing tons of stuff that isn't listed on their bios there.


Cool story. I don't go by websites, you do.




> And? He still resisted her attacks, made her expend her power, and then drained it. You asked for scans of him manipulating the Phoenix Force, that's exactly what I gave you. How he did it shouldn't matter.



She draws on the power of the earth. He put her in an magnetic bubble so she can't draw into her powers. The end. Don't make it out to be something it isn't.





> Uni-Power.


Who?


> Power Cosmic.


Who? 





> Phoenix Force.


 responded


> Mjolnir


Metal


> Proteus' power


Took him the end of the fight.



> Photons are photons. If he can block them, it means he can block light. Dazzler's power is to turn sound into light. Unless you're suggesting that what she hit him with some some kind of fake light, you have no argument.






> That link has been posted previously in this thread, you know.


That's why I asked which.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Aug 5, 2010)

So Magneto the master of Magnetism can't use electricity/lightning? If he can manipulate it then he can do it.  And to be fair the fact she could'nt tap into the Phoenix force and lost is still impressive. He's also probably refering to Captain Uni Spiderman but I have'nt read that one.


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 5, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> So Magneto the master of Magnetism can't use electricity/lightning? If he can manipulate it then he can do it.  And to be fair the fact she could'nt tap into the Phoenix force and lost is still impressive. He's also probably refering to Captain Uni Spiderman but I have'nt read that one.



I said summon lightning, it's obvious he can control it. He just can't produce it unless theres a storm or Storm, haha. The fight was great, but he never actually manipulated her PF in the fight.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Aug 5, 2010)

Lightning is probably the easiest power for him to replicate due to his movese, and he has diamagnetism which implies he could manipulate electrons. BTW after rereading that scan of Phoenix it says her psionic attack rivalled Xavier and I'm fairly certain she was'nt holding back, he still resisted briefly and begun fighting back. Just saying. 

I have'nt read everything with Magneto but lightning is'nt so farfetched.


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 5, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Lightning is probably the easiest power for him to replicate due to his movese, and he has diamagnetism which implies he could manipulate electrons. BTW after rereading that scan of Phoenix it says her psionic attack rivalled Xavier and I'm fairly certain she was'nt holding back, he still resisted briefly and begun fighting back. Just saying.
> 
> I have'nt read everything with Magneto but lightning is'nt so farfetched.



far fetched and it actually happening is two different things. He's never summoned lightning or any elemental attack without a medium. That's cannon.


----------



## Lucifeller (Aug 6, 2010)

On the other hand, he's summoned electrical discharges with his power. At least twice, in fact - once in Genosha while Cassandra Nova's hunk of junk was attacking it (it was useless because the thing was insulated), and once in X-Men: The End, where an electromagnetic impulse literally fried with a static burst the nervous systems of every living thing above a bacteria on the whole Shi'ar throneworld. Granted, his power was shorting out at the time, but all the Imperial Guardswoman who attacked him did was release the restraints on said power - ie, it's what he can do if he STOPS holding back.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 6, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> Can we stop with the half-assery? Storm created the Lightning and he sent it right back to her. This is what you get when you only read one scan of an issue. Do you even read these issues?



Lucifeller already covered this.



> In Eve of Destruction? If so, then no.



Then post him overwhelming him in a direct clash of power.



> I just did a print screen, so no. You can just look at the pictures.



Pictures only tell half the story. If I can't read the text, then it's meaningless. If you have the comic, PM it to me and I'll read it myself.



> What?



You say Xavier holds back against Magneto. I say Magneto also holds back. You say only against good guys. I say Xavier is a good guy. Also I pointed out that that scan also says Magneto holds back in general. Pretty easy to understand.



> Yes there was. Ask any Magneto fan the difference between Silver Age Magneto and Claremont Magneto.



Obviously some things have been retconned, but most of the events in the Silver Age of Marvel are still canon, as there was no Crisis on Infinite Earths or whatever to reset them. Lots of new comics I read still reference stuff from that era.



> Most of them that are in the Uncanny/X-Men vol 2. Feel free to post any I haven't read. I love to read issues I haven't, but from what I've seen it goes like this. "Magneto does something, X-Men fight him, He asks why, they keep attacking, he either beats them up and tells them to leave or loses". Like I said the infant story is the only one where he said he wanted to kill the X-Men. You can even see by the way he fights them he only does so to KO them.



This is still an appeal to ignorance, and it supports my original point anyway.



> You or someone else asked for some of Magneto's retcons so I listed them. Nuff said. You went and picked out Xorn out of the 3-5 I listed.



I mentioned that because it was irrelevant, the others were fine since they were currently canon.



> So you agree he isn't a casual lightning dodger? From going by that thread even he was shocked he could dodge it. There is a difference in dodging and being fast enough to dodge it.



I never said he was fast enough. I said he could dodge it because he has precognition. Do you know what precognition is? It means you know what is going to happen before it does so you can react to it in advance.

Let's say you're pointing a gun at me. Obviously I can't move anywhere near as fast as a bullet, but if I can see that you are about to pull the trigger, I can move out of the way before you fire and the bullet will miss me, since once it is fired, I'm no longer in the way. That's how Spider-Man can dodge lightning. Like here when he's fighting Electro: 





> So you agree it is electromagnetic wormhole he is using?



There's no such thing as a purely electromagnetic wormhole, unless Marvel says there is and that's what he's using. They just said it was a wormhole. Meaning he had to have manipulated gravity to create it.



> Cool story. I don't go by websites, you do.



You're the one who just said you were going by the Marvel.com website.



> She draws on the power of the earth. He put her in an magnetic bubble so she can't draw into her powers. The end. Don't make it out to be something it isn't.



No, Magneto was the one drawing on the power of the earth's magnetic field. It was stated in the scans. Phoenix's power comes from the Phoenix Force, which is a cosmic entity. In the scans posted, she compared it to the stars, not the earth. It was never said that he cut her off from her powers, after they clashed for a while, she was exhausted, and he drained her powers from her. You're the one who is misinterpreting the events shown.



> Who?



Spider-Man



> Who?



Galactus, in Secret Wars. Xavier and Magneto were trying to contact him telepathically, but after it wasn't working, Xavier wanted to stop but Magneto kept pushing. It eventually triggered a reflex from Galactus that blasted them with the Power Cosmic, but Magneto protected himself and Xavier against it.



> responded



Your response was insufficient and I debunked it.



> Metal



Enchanted Asgardian metal, which properties that allow energy manipulation and magnetic control just like Magneto can do.



> Took him the end of the fight.



He was dying and poisoned.



> *snip*



So Monica took him by surprise. Doesn't change the fact that he can block it if he knows it's coming.



> That's why I asked which.



Huh? Which what?


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 6, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Lucifeller already covered this.



Scan or issue #? I'm skeptical about what you two post.



> Then post him overwhelming him in a direct clash of power.


 I just did, twice. There is no clash unless Xavier isn't trying to kill him. Like I said before. If Xavier wants Magneto down, then Magneto can't do anything about it hence why he upgraded his helmet to block attacks. 




> Pictures only tell half the story. If I can't read the text, then it's meaningless. If you have the comic, PM it to me and I'll read it myself.


 This is starting to become work. Just accept that Xavier went into Magneto's mind and sent Avalon + Magneto into orbit by using Magneto's own powers. Find it yourself. Uncanny X-Men #304 



> You say Xavier holds back against Magneto. I say Magneto also holds back. You say only against good guys. I say Xavier is a good guy. Also I pointed out that that scan also says Magneto holds back in general. Pretty easy to understand.


Which scan says he holds back? The chick who is cloned him? I'd like scans rather then a scan of one person during the 90s who hardly knows him. 





> Obviously some things have been retconned, but most of the events in the Silver Age of Marvel are still canon, as there was no Crisis on Infinite Earths or whatever to reset them. Lots of new comics I read still reference stuff from that era.


Yes, but Magneto during the Silver Age was a Doom-lite trying to rule the world and killing the X-Men. Here comes Claremont who revamped his whole character to being the villian/hero/whatever you can sympathize with and no longer caring about killing the X-Men and being the savior of the mutant race. I'm done with this post as you clearly don't even know what you're talking about.




> This is still an appeal to ignorance, and it supports my original point anyway.


 Point of?


I mentioned that because it was irrelevant, the others were fine since they were currently canon.





> I never said he was fast enough. I said he could dodge it because he has precognition. Do you know what precognition is? It means you know what is going to happen before it does so you can react to it in advance.
> 
> Let's say you're pointing a gun at me. Obviously I can't move anywhere near as fast as a bullet, but if I can see that you are about to pull the trigger, I can move out of the way before you fire and the bullet will miss me, since once it is fired, I'm no longer in the way. That's how Spider-Man can dodge lightning. Like here when he's fighting Electro:



So you believe Spidey to be a casual lightning dodger?



> There's no such thing as a purely electromagnetic wormhole, unless Marvel says there is and that's what he's using. They just said it was a wormhole. Meaning he had to have manipulated gravity to create it.





It's not impossible. 



> You're the one who just said you were going by the Marvel.com website.


I only linked it to give you the official website and not some wikia.



> No, Magneto was the one drawing on the power of the earth's magnetic field. It was stated in the scans. Phoenix's power comes from the Phoenix Force, which is a cosmic entity. In the scans posted, she compared it to the stars, not the earth. It was never said that he cut her off from her powers, after they clashed for a while, she was exhausted, and he drained her powers from her. You're the one who is misinterpreting the events shown.


 That was my bad I guess.




> Spider-Man


Scan?



> Galactus, in Secret Wars. Xavier and Magneto were trying to contact him telepathically, but after it wasn't working, Xavier wanted to stop but Magneto kept pushing. It eventually triggered a reflex from Galactus that blasted them with the Power Cosmic, but Magneto protected himself and Xavier against it.


It's called a forcefield iirc. 



> Your response was insufficient and I debunked it.


Bout time.



> Enchanted Asgardian *metal*, which properties that allow energy manipulation and magnetic control just like Magneto can do.


Nuff said.




> He was dying and poisoned.


He said it himself he needed time. Stop trying.



> So Monica took him by surprise. Doesn't change the fact that he can block it if he knows it's coming.


 You said light can't get in it. It did.




> Huh? Which what?



which link about fuze


----------



## Lucifeller (Aug 6, 2010)

> Scan or issue #? I'm skeptical about what you two post.



I only have the actual Italian issues, which are numbered differently from the US ones to boot (one Italian comic generally contains three or four American-size ones), so I can't even provide an issue number because it'd follow the Italian numbering, which is most likely fairly worthless to you. And I don't have a scanner - no payola to get one... I spend it all in comics, manga and games, hahaha.

Sorry.


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 6, 2010)

What's the title issue/year and what not?


----------



## Lucifeller (Aug 6, 2010)

I told you, they are the ITALIAN TRANSLATION. I only know the Italian title. However, you should be able to find it very easily - it happens when Cassandra Nova sends her mega-sentinel to flatten Genosha, which at the time was Mags's domain. 16 million dead mutants are kinda hard to forget...

Of course, that show was worthless, as Cassandra Nova wasn't stupid - the mega-sentinel was magnetism-proof AND insulated against high voltage. Mags defeated it by throwing a fuckton of metal (more or less the whole capital city) at it, in the end. Got killed in the process, though.

The second instance is in the miniseries X-Men: The End. Part 3: Men and X-Men, specifically. Mags scrubs clean the whole Shi'ar Throneworld when he's ambushed by a member of the Shi'ar Imperial Guard whose power is to make others' powers supercharge, apparently. He was holding a wormhole connecting Earth and the Throneworld open, too, which is why he was caught off guard.


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 6, 2010)

Woah. If you're talking about New X-Men #115-116 or so. Don't remember EXACT issue but it's around 115-120 for sure. Magneto was handicapped during the giant Sentinal attack and did nothing in that fight. Did the huge sentinal attack again because I'm reading New X-Men right now so haven't finished it, but I'm long past the Sentinal attack.

I just googled X-Men the end lmao and got "X-Men: The End is a 2004-2006 trilogy of miniseries detailing the last days of the X-Men and their adventures in a *noncanon* future, part of their The End series. It is written by Chris Claremont and drawn by Sean Chen, with Greg Land & later Gene Ha doing the cover art."


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 7, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> Scan or issue #? I'm skeptical about what you two post.



Take it up with him.



> I just did, twice. There is no clash unless Xavier isn't trying to kill him. Like I said before. If Xavier wants Magneto down, then Magneto can't do anything about it hence why he upgraded his helmet to block attacks.



Wait, you were talking about him helmetless? His helmet is standard equipment, why would he not get it in an OBD fight.



> This is starting to become work. Just accept that Xavier went into Magneto's mind and sent Avalon + Magneto into orbit by using Magneto's own powers. Find it yourself. Uncanny X-Men #304



I can acquire that, but it might take several days. I'll get back to you once I've read it.



> Which scan says he holds back? The chick who is cloned him? I'd like scans rather then a scan of one person during the 90s who hardly knows him.



This scan:



Beast is the one saying it.

Here it is also said that the only difference between Magneto and his clone Joseph was that he didn't have Magneto's subconscious self - restraint:





> Yes, but Magneto during the Silver Age was a Doom-lite trying to rule the world and killing the X-Men. Here comes Claremont who revamped his whole character to being the villian/hero/whatever you can sympathize with and no longer caring about killing the X-Men and being the savior of the mutant race. I'm done with this post as you clearly don't even know what you're talking about.



His character motivations have changed, doesn't mean his powers have been retconned.



> Point of?



My point that Magneto in this thread is completely unrestrained and at the peak of his powers, and not holding back. So he has a good chance of winning this.



> So you believe Spidey to be a casual lightning dodger?





Let me try to explain this one more time. This is a very simple concept, the fact that you fail to comprehend it either means you are incredibly dense or you are just trying to piss me off on purpose.

Spidey is nowhere near as fast as a bolt of lightning. However, due to his Spider-sense, he can see that Electro is going to fire lightning at him before he actually does it. That way, he can move out of the way a split second before Electro fires, and thus the lightning misses. That is how he can "dodge" lightning. This is not difficult to understand.



> It's not impossible.



Did you even read those articles? They're not talking about an actual wormhole, but about a physical tunnel that matter could pass through where it would be shielded from electromagnetism, and thus invisible. Basically just an invisible tunnel, not an actual wormhole. That's not what Magneto did.



> I only linked it to give you the official website and not some wikia.



And then you said you didn't go by websites at all.



> Scan?



Link removed



> It's called a forcefield iirc.



Capable of stopping the Power Cosmic, that's impressive. Not to mention that he and Xavier were able to push Galactus' mental defenses to that point when most everyone else who tried to fight him in that story arc were just ignored by him.



> Nuff said.



All metal is created equal now? Mjolnir is not made of any kind of metal found on earth, it's Uru enchanted by Odin himself, and Thor can use it to control energy just like Magneto can.



> He said it himself he needed time. Stop trying.



Yeah, he said that _after_ he was poisoned and dying. Thinking he was at peak performance is wrong.



> You said light can't get in it. It did.



Blatant lie. I said that light can't get in *unless he allows it to*. In the scan you posted, he was taken by surprise, and obviously didn't have his shield set up to block light. I posted a scan proving he can block light if he wants to.



> which link about fuze



That was the link that states it's energy. Greed is trying to contradict it.

Also, I have a question for you, Greed. Can Kazakiri attack over interstellar distances? Magneto can. What's stopping him from just wormholing to Alpha Centauri or someplace and then blasting her from there?


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 7, 2010)

> Wait, you were talking about him helmetless? His helmet is standard equipment, why would he not get it in an OBD fight.


If you're going to post scans of Magneto resisting telepathic attacks and say his helmet stops them then post them of 2000+. Before the X-Men movie his helmet was just that, a helmet.



> This scan:
> 
> 
> 
> Beast is the one saying it.


 It doesn't say he holds back wth..



> Here it is also said that the only difference between Magneto and his clone Joseph was that he didn't have Magneto's subconscious self - restraint:



And ironically the only difference between Joe is he is just a stronger Magneto 



> His character motivations have changed, doesn't mean his powers have been retconned.



I thought we were talking about his motivation to kill the X-Men/good guys?? 



> My point that Magneto in this thread is completely unrestrained and at the peak of his powers, and not holding back. So he has a good chance of winning this.


 Okay?







> Let me try to explain this one more time. This is a very simple concept, the fact that you fail to comprehend it either means you are incredibly dense or you are just trying to piss me off on purpose.
> 
> *Spidey is nowhere near as fast as a bolt of lightning*. However, due to his Spider-sense, he can see that Electro is going to fire lightning at him before he actually does it. That way, he can move out of the way a split second before Electro fires, and thus the lightning misses. That is how he can "dodge" lightning. This is not difficult to understand.



Simple as that. I rest my case with that.



> Did you even read those articles? They're not talking about an actual wormhole, but about a physical tunnel that matter could pass through where it would be shielded from electromagnetism, and thus invisible. Basically just an invisible tunnel, not an actual wormhole. That's not what Magneto did.


Yes, I read it. Who's to say the writer of that issue didn't expand on that? It's not far fetch and plausible since he is known as the "Master of Magnetism"




> And then you said you didn't go by websites at all.


 I don't. Doesn't mean marvel.com is false. I like to stick to comics. Just like I'd read a DB(Naruto) if it was in front of me but I wouldn't bring it into a conversation.



Link removed
Is that suppose to be unfamiliar? 




> Capable of stopping the Power Cosmic, that's impressive. Not to mention that he and Xavier were able to push Galactus' mental defenses to that point when most everyone else who tried to fight him in that story arc were just ignored by him.


Stop riding that scene lmao. Magneto got pissed because Galactus made them look like "worms" or some vermin I believe. It was simply a reaction blast to it. 



> All metal is created equal now? Mjolnir is not made of any kind of metal found on earth, it's Uru enchanted by Odin himself, and Thor can use it to control energy just like Magneto can.


When has Magneto used mjolnir to control energy? 





> Yeah, he said that _after_ he was poisoned and dying. Thinking he was at peak performance is wrong.


You're reaching hard as hell for that. Did you bother to read that story either?




> Blatant lie. I said that light can't get in *unless he allows it to*. In the scan you posted, he was taken by surprise, and obviously didn't have his shield set up to block light. I posted a scan proving he can block light if he wants to.


Scan of Magneto having a force field only for elemental/energy attacks and a separate one for physical. 




> Also, I have a question for you, Greed. Can Kazakiri attack over interstellar distances? Magneto can. What's stopping him from just wormholing to Alpha Centauri or someplace and then blasting her from there?


 Why wouldn't she just teleport back if she can't?


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 7, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> If you're going to post scans of Magneto resisting telepathic attacks and say his helmet stops them then post them of 2000+. Before the X-Men movie his helmet was just that, a helmet.



You yourself said that the helmet was upgraded to stop telepathy.



> It doesn't say he holds back wth..





			
				Beast (emphasis mine) said:
			
		

> Thank your various deities for the conflict in his soul. *That's at least kept him manageable over the years*.... Within Erik Lehnsherr is the rational man who struggles constantly with the methods employed by Magneto to achieve what he believes are his righteous goals.... *if those two elements ever reconcile - well, there would be no practical limit to what he could accomplish.*



How does that not imply that he subconsciously holds back?



> And ironically the only difference between Joe is he is just a stronger Magneto



They have the same potential power, the only difference is that *Magneto holds back.* This is stated directly in the scan.



> I thought we were talking about his motivation to kill the X-Men/good guys??



No, it started when you said that he didn't kill them because he wasn't strong enough to do so.



> Simple as that. I rest my case with that.



Uh-huh. Yet your point in the first place bringing him up was saying it was an outlier/inconsistent feat that he dodged lightning, while I pointed out that it wasn't due to his precognition. In other words, it makes perfect sense that he can dodge it without actually being as fast as it due to his powerset, as I've already explained.



> Yes, I read it. Who's to say the writer of that issue didn't expand on that? It's not far fetch and plausible since he is known as the "Master of Magnetism"



And you accuse me of reaching

What the article is talking about is creating a physical tunnel out of metamaterials which would make objects entering it invisible. Not actually creating an Einstein-Rosen bridge between two points in space, which is what Magneto did.



> I don't. Doesn't mean marvel.com is false. I like to stick to comics. Just like I'd read a DB(Naruto) if it was in front of me but I wouldn't bring it into a conversation.



Then why bring up the website in the first place? I've provided tons of evidence from the comics.



> *snip* Is that suppose to be unfamiliar?



It's Spider-Man empowered by the Uni-Power, which is a mysterious cosmic energy connected to the Enigma Force from the Microverse. It's certainly not something you would routinely encounter.



> Stop riding that scene lmao. Magneto got pissed because Galactus made them look like "worms" or some vermin I believe. It was simply a reaction blast to it.



Uh-huh, and he not only shielded against it, but managed to actually reach Galactus' reflexes to cause that to happen.



> When has Magneto used mjolnir to control energy?



I said Thor used it to control energy. The point is that Thor has so much control over it that Magneto manipulating it against Thor's will is an impressive feat.



> You're reaching hard as hell for that. Did you bother to read that story either?



So, according to you, someone who is poisoned and dying can perform just as well as if they were healthy?

Tell you want, why don't you drink some cyanide and then come back and debate me again. According to your logic, it shouldn't diminish your capacity at all 



> Scan of Magneto having a force field only for elemental/energy attacks and a separate one for physical.



Strawman. I never said that. I said he can alter his forcefield to stop certain things, like photons. I already showed you a scan of him blocking light, which proves he can do it. You're just trying to nitpick and dance around the central point, since your chief argument here has been refuted.



> Why wouldn't she just teleport back if she can't?



First of all, I was asking Greed. Second of all, he would need to prove she can teleport across that distance, as well as track his wormhole.


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 7, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> You yourself said that the helmet was upgraded to stop telepathy.




Yes, in like the year 2001ish or whenever the X-Men movie was made. Point?




> How does that not imply that he subconsciously holds back?


Seems like they're talking about Erik the man and Magneto the mutant.



> They have the same potential power, the only difference is that *Magneto holds back.* This is stated directly in the scan.


Cool story, exactly why are we buying into baselss feats now? 




> No, it started when you said that he didn't kill them because he wasn't strong enough to do so.


When? Direct quote please.


> Uh-huh. Yet your point in the first place bringing him up was saying it was an outlier/inconsistent feat that he dodged lightning, while I pointed out that it wasn't due to his precognition. In other words, it makes perfect sense that he can dodge it without actually being as fast as it due to his powerset, as I've already explained.


I asked if he was a *casual* lightning dodger. You agree he isn't. Simple.


> And you accuse me of reaching


Why is it reaching that the Master of Magnetism used Magnetism in his powers?



> What the article is talking about is creating a physical tunnel out of metamaterials which would make objects entering it invisible. Not actually creating an Einstein-Rosen bridge between two points in space, which is what Magneto did.


Cool story, I said maybe they expanded.




> Then why bring up the website in the first place? I've provided tons of evidence from the comics.



Because it's Marvel's official website and maybe you didn't know about it?



> It's Spider-Man empowered by the Uni-Power, which is a mysterious cosmic energy connected to the Enigma Force from the Microverse. It's certainly not something you would routinely encounter.


He encountered it earlier and almost got defeated.



> Uh-huh, and he not only shielded against it, but managed to actually reach Galactus' reflexes to cause that to happen.


 Cool story again.. Is this suppose to mean something?



> I said Thor used it to control energy. The point is that Thor has so much control over it that Magneto manipulating it against Thor's will is an impressive feat.


 Until Thor forces it back to himself 



> So, according to you, someone who is poisoned and dying can perform just as well as if they were healthy?


 According to Marvel someone who is poisoned and dying can perform just as well as if they were healthy. Notice he doesn't control Proteus until he touches Magneto. *sigh*



> Tell you want, why don't you drink some cyanide and then come back and debate me again. According to your logic, it shouldn't diminish your capacity at all


 Only if I'm able to control the earths EM




> Strawman. I never said that. I said he can alter his forcefield to stop certain things, like photons. I already showed you a scan of him blocking light, which proves he can do it. You're just trying to nitpick and dance around the central point, since your chief argument here has been refuted.


And I showed you one of someone who WANTED to get past his shield. Don't you see that? The scan you posted was planned for her to do that. All according to plan as Madara would say.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 7, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> Yes, in like the year 2001ish or whenever the X-Men movie was made. Point?



Point is that it's allowed in this thread.



> Seems like they're talking about Erik the man and Magneto the mutant.



Exactly. He struggles within himself because some of his ideologies conflict. That causes him to hold back.



> Cool story, exactly why are we buying into baselss feats now?



It's directly stated that he only seems stronger because he doesn't hold back as much.



> When? Direct quote please.



Link removed



> Unless it's a hero/good guy he is fighting he usually does. *It's not CIS/PIS he doesn't kill the X-Men either.*


 Emphasis mine. If you say it's not CIS, that means it's not related to his character or mentality, and if you say it's not PIS, that means it's not due to the plot. The only other explanation is that he was not powerful enough to do so, which is what you are implying.



> I asked if he was a *casual* lightning dodger. You agree he isn't. Simple.



Define casual. If the bolt moves in a relatively predictable path, and (if it's being fired by someone) the person firing it can't move his hands and react at lightning speed, then he should have no trouble dodging it due to his spider-sense.



> Why is it reaching that the Master of Magnetism used Magnetism in his powers?



It's reaching to assume that he created a wormhole without gravity based on an article that wasn't even published when the comic was written that you misinterpreted to mean something completely different from what it does. In that other scan I posted with Beast talking about him holding back, it also says he can use gravity.



> Cool story, I said maybe they expanded.



You mean completely misinterpreted the article like you did, and even if they did, that means nothing unless you can prove that's what they meant, other than just calling it a traditional wormhole like they did in the comic, which requires gravity.



> Because it's Marvel's official website and maybe you didn't know about it?



Are you kidding? I've been laughing at the "fan - voted" powergrid ratings on there for years.



> He encountered it earlier and almost got defeated.



You mean in the same story arc? The fact that he could barely hold it off one time but deflect it easily the next time pretty much proves what I'm saying.



> Cool story again.. Is this suppose to mean something?



Yes, it means he can analyze and learn to fight against unusual types of powers. (Of course I'm not claiming that he has any chance of beating or even hurting Galactus, he is just too powerful. But doing what he did was impressive).



> Until Thor forces it back to himself



The fact he can control it at all against Thor's control is impressive. You want to swap Magneto for Thor in this thread? Because he'd do even better.



> According to Marvel someone who is poisoned and dying can perform just as well as if they were healthy. Notice he doesn't control Proteus until he touches Magneto.



That's just stupid. He was obviously severely damaged and dying, yet he still managed to fight and win. What I'm saying is that if he was healthy, he could have done what he did faster and more efficiently. Not that it even matters, I mean he did win in the end, didn't he?



> Only if I'm able to control the earths EM



Are you seriously arguing that Magneto's powers are not diminished or weakened in any way by being *poisoned and dying?*

That's just.... wow. I'd accuse you of trolling if many of your other points weren't rather rational. But still, wow.



> And I showed you one of someone who WANTED to get past his shield. Don't you see that? The scan you posted was planned for her to do that. All according to plan as Madara would say.



He was taken by surprise and didn't have his shield set up to block photons then, so she could get in. Like I said before, unless you were arguing that Dazzler was using some kind of "fake" photons (which is not part of her powerset), then there is nothing to refute the fact that he can block light if he wants to.


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 7, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Point is that it's allowed in this thread.


 That's odd.





> Exactly. He struggles within himself because some of his ideologies conflict. That causes him to hold back.


That scan you can interpret it however you want. I think that more leans towards him using his powers to destroy the human race.  




> It's directly stated that he only seems stronger because he doesn't hold back as much.


 Or because he is a younger Magneto.




> Link removed
> 
> Emphasis mine. If you say it's not CIS, that means it's not related to his character or mentality, and if you say it's not PIS, that means it's not due to the plot. The only other explanation is that he was not powerful enough to do so, which is what you are implying.


I guess it's more CIS he doesn't want to slaughter mutants. Point?



> Define casual. If the bolt moves in a relatively predictable path, and (if it's being fired by someone) the person firing it can't move his hands and react at lightning speed, then he should have no trouble dodging it due to his spider-sense.


Lightning strikes > Spider-Man might not be able to react in time. It's easy to block something predictable for the most part. 





> It's reaching to assume that he created a wormhole without gravity based on an article that wasn't even published when the comic was written that you misinterpreted to mean something completely different from what it does. In that other scan I posted with Beast talking about him holding back, it also says he can use gravity.


 I guess I'm reaching because he said this. Everything thus far has been behind his power of magnetism.





You mean completely misinterpreted the article like you did, and even if they did, that means nothing unless you can prove that's what they meant, other than just calling it a traditional wormhole like they did in the comic, which requires gravity.




> You mean in the same story arc? The fact that he could barely hold it off one time but deflect it easily the next time pretty much proves what I'm saying.


Or it proves my point that he needs to be in contact with something he is unfamiliar with 



> Yes, *it means he can analyze and learn to fight against unusual types of powers.* (Of course I'm not claiming that he has any chance of beating or even hurting Galactus, he is just too powerful. But doing what he did was impressive).


 That's roughly what I said a few days ago in this thread >.>




> The fact he can control it at all against Thor's control is impressive. You want to swap Magneto for Thor in this thread? Because he'd do even better.


He took it out of Thor's grasp and Thor wanted it back so pulled it to himself. 

Not my thread, but Thor would do worst if Magneto can control it's core. I don't know the limits of that things regen.



> That's just stupid. He was obviously severely damaged and dying, yet he still managed to fight and win. What I'm saying is that if he was healthy, he could have done what he did faster and more efficiently. Not that it even matters, I mean he did win in the end, didn't he?


Do you know why he was severely damaged?




> Are you seriously arguing that Magneto's powers are not diminished or weakened in any way by being *poisoned and dying?*
> 
> That's just.... wow. I'd accuse you of trolling if many of your other points weren't rather rational. But still, wow.


What does my opinion matter? Obviously in X Necrosha it didn't matter. That's canon. Don't underestimate Magneto.



> He was taken by surprise and didn't have his shield set up to block photons then, so she could get in. Like I said before, unless you were arguing that Dazzler was using some kind of "fake" photons (which is not part of her powerset), then there is nothing to refute the fact that he can block light if he wants to.


It's canon she wanted him to do that to her. You can't refute that.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 7, 2010)

I acquired the issue you named (Uncanny X-Men #304) and read it (despite the terrible 90s art style), and here's what I have to say about it: While you are right that Xavier did defeat Magneto in a mental battle, it was after he had been fighting a lot of the other X-Men, and Xavier himself was completely exhausted afterwards, just like I said he would be. Furthermore, it actually debunks your other claim that Magneto never wants to kill the X-Men, since in that issue, he was threatening to kill them. That's why Professor X let loose his full power against him.



Veikuri said:


> That's odd.



Why? It's current and canon.



> That scan you can interpret it however you want. I think that more leans towards him using his powers to destroy the human race.



He has attempted to do that several times, but pay specific attention to what Beast says: 



> if those two elements ever reconcile - well, there would be no practical limit to what he could accomplish.



Meaning he would be stronger if he wasn't holding back.



> Or because he is a younger Magneto.



Excuse me if I go by what the comic says over what you say.



> I guess it's more CIS he doesn't want to slaughter mutants. Point?



Concession Accepted, then.



> Lightning strikes > Spider-Man might not be able to react in time. It's easy to block something predictable for the most part.



He can react in time as long as he uses spider-sense to see them coming before they happen, so he dodges in advance.



> I guess I'm reaching because he said this. Everything thus far has been behind his power of magnetism.
> 
> *snip*



Too bad that was from before the scans I posted when he realizes his powers are more advanced than that. The way it generally works is that if newer stuff directly contradicts older stuff, we go with the newer stuff.



> Or it proves my point that he needs to be in contact with something he is unfamiliar with



He wasn't in direct physical contact with Galactus. The point is that he can adapt to Kazakiri's powers to hold them off better while he counterattacks.



> That's roughly what I said a few days ago in this thread >.>



It seems you're arguing the opposite since you're saying he won't be able to analyze or disrupt her core.



> He took it out of Thor's grasp and Thor wanted it back so pulled it to himself.



He was able to move it while Thor was still holding it:



He was also able to stop it when it was tracking him:





> Not my thread, but Thor would do worst if Magneto can control it's core. I don't know the limits of that things regen.



Not really, as Thor has better control over dimensional portals, more firepower, more exotic powers (antimatter, transmutation, etc.) better energy drain, much better stamina, anti-magic, atomic disintegration, soul manipulation, intangibility, weather control, gravity, etc. Everything I've said Magneto can do in this thread, Thor can do better. He has way more powers than most people give him credit for, people often say Silver Surfer has a billion different powers but Thor has at least as many.



> Do you know why he was severely damaged?



Because of Proteus? Kazakiri doesn't have Proteus' abilities, so I don't see how that's relevant.



> What does my opinion matter? Obviously in X Necrosha it didn't matter. That's canon. Don't underestimate Magneto.



It obviously mattered as there was nothing stating that he wasn't weakened at all. In fact, they made a big deal of the fact that he was, however he still managed to fight through it and win. My point is that if he hadn't been damaged like that he would have won faster.



> It's canon she wanted him to do that to her. You can't refute that.



It's canon that he can block photons. Photons are light. Therefore, he can block light. Doesn't matter if she wanted him to or not, proof is that he did it.


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 7, 2010)

> I acquired the issue you named (Uncanny X-Men #304) and read it (despite the terrible 90s art style), and here's what I have to say about it: While you are right that Xavier did defeat Magneto in a mental battle, it was after he had been fighting a lot of the other X-Men, and Xavier himself was completely exhausted afterwards, just like I said he would be. Furthermore, it actually debunks your other claim that Magneto never wants to kill the X-Men, since in that issue, he was threatening to kill them. That's why Professor X let loose his full power against him.


My mind is a lil foggy on 304 to be exact, but I do remember the issue quite well. One of my favorites. He was trying to recruit the X-Men to his spaceship(Avalon) and most declined except for Colossus. The reason Xavier sent him away is Magneto's ways of doing things. Read the part where they both look crazy yelling at each other.



> Why? It's current and canon.


Mixing feats.




> He has attempted to do that several times, but pay specific attention to what Beast says:



It really sounds like he is talking about Magneto himself and not about his powers. Justifying the ends to means. Is something Magneto and Xavier always went back and forth with. 





> Excuse me if I go by what the comic says over what you say.


Then go read Magneto War if you think otherwise. I don't have those issues, but I do remember Magneto mentioning something about Joseph being younger than he is. I believe the last issue if you want to find it. His statement > stalker




> He can react in time as long as he uses spider-sense to see them coming before they happen, so he dodges in advance.


 Can we just drop this? I really don't care for spidey right now.




> Too bad that was from before the scans I posted when he realizes his powers are more advanced than that. The way it generally works is that if newer stuff directly contradicts older stuff, we go with the newer stuff.


When did he realize his powers were more then that? scans? Older Magneto did more technical shit than current Magneto. It's just Magneto you see is more of a power house. 



> He wasn't in direct physical contact with Galactus. The point is that he can adapt to Kazakiri's powers to hold them off better while he counterattacks.


Cool. He never manipulated anything of Galactus. So point? Please don't reply by it's a good feat of durability etc etc I know that.



> It seems you're arguing the opposite since you're saying he won't be able to analyze or disrupt her core.


 I said from the very beginning. That Magneto needs time to manipulate her core. I also gave two sides. A side of if he can't manipulate her core he loses badly and if he can he will need time. Nothing has changed. Maybe you attacked the first part and never read the second.



> He was able to move it while Thor was still holding it:
> 
> 
> 
> He was also able to stop it when it was tracking him:



Both are sneak attacks. Not sure about the journey but defiantly the Super Villian Team Up one. 



> Not really, as Thor has better control over dimensional portals, more firepower, more exotic powers (antimatter, transmutation, etc.) better energy drain, much better stamina, anti-magic, atomic disintegration, soul manipulation, intangibility, weather control, gravity, etc. Everything I've said Magneto can do in this thread, Thor can do better. He has way more powers than most people give him credit for, people often say Silver Surfer has a billion different powers but Thor has at least as many.



Again, I never said Thor was weak. I just said IF magneto can manipulate her core he will have an easier time. If he can't Thor would be a better fighter. 



> Because of Proteus? Kazakiri doesn't have Proteus' abilities, so I don't see how that's relevant.
> 
> 
> 
> It obviously mattered as there was nothing stating that he wasn't weakened at all. In fact, they made a big deal of the fact that he was, however he still managed to fight through it and win. My point is that if he hadn't been damaged like that he would have won faster.



The reason why he is weakened is because of Proteus. Now if Magneto was weakened and then started fighting proteus I can give him something, but he is weakened because fighting proteus. 



> It's canon that he can block photons. Photons are light. Therefore, he can block light. Doesn't matter if she wanted him to or not, proof is that he did it.


It's also canon that light can go past his shields. Remember this isn't pokemon where people go "Dazzler I choose you! Dazzler use "Light"." She saw an opportunity to attack and she went for it and succeed.

It's like saying Magneto vs Thor. Sure Magneto can manipulate his hammer... Only to the extent that Thor allows him. If Thor wants his hammer he gets his hammer.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Aug 8, 2010)

her core being inside her may seal her fate ...and atomizing the guy assuming she can even bypass his defenses in the first place may not do him in..he;s errm "reconstructed" himself once..and I think even built a photon like holographic body for some dead chick to say goodbye to another or multiple i forget

his own abilities regarding energy manipulation means he can absorbed an opponents attacks augmenting his stamina..and done so as a means to out last an enemy

he can alter and transmutate energy and matter and has done so..so she risks the potential of the longer this fight goes...the more he "figures" out what she's made of and just converts her to harmless radiation or something and dissipates her and unless she can come back from this. it should count as a ten count/win

as to Erics stamina I believe he has kept a few million or so tons of rock in orbit as his personal pimp palace twenty four seven three sixty five for a good while with out it ever straining him in the slightest...and even engaged the avengers Thor and co...while keeping it up and not...really being weakened enough for it to fall

gramps is..god damned tough 

long shot I'm describing mind you and this is all assuming Eric at his prime..and not as he is now

if not I recommend..classic stephen Strange or his master the Ancient one..or as EM said..nate grey 

he may loose here..or he may not...for me is coin toss


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## Kurou (Aug 8, 2010)

Wow, IWD, haven't seen you in a while sup man?


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 8, 2010)

Been a while Watchdog but where did he do some of those feats? I would like to read those. "Photon like holographs","reconstruction". What?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Aug 8, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Been a while Watchdog but where did he do some of those feats? I would like to read those. "Photon like holographs","reconstruction". What?



 I was in Argentina visiting family and then some work...and I caught a really nasty chest bug so I'm pretty ktfo'd 

Mind you upon reflection I maybe misinterperating what the girl said but I think its when the Empire (Shi'ar) frag either genosha or some place where Erics at and there be loved ones and so he flies into a rage and I think he constructs using photons for this one character to explain whats happening...and I think say goodbye and she explains all melodramatically the depth of his powers

then I think Eric takes off after the birdmen to lay on some beat downs

now the thing his consistent high end feats of energy manipulation are pretty freaking insane for a non magical/herald type character



KurouKetsu said:


> Wow, IWD, haven't seen you in a while sup man?



sick as a dog furious at the bastard politicians in charge of the homeland....and enjoying the nice miami whether lol

oh that and posting  obviously..glad to see a fellow magneto fan on the site...though it seems he's caused some drama?


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## Banhammer (Aug 9, 2010)

The M meteor wasn't by the way. When magneto gets taken out I think it started to fall into collision


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## Endless Mike (Aug 9, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> Yet he was hesitant to attack Wolverine



Not in the comic I read.

More proof:






> Because Magneto during the time he has his helmet tele-proof. He cannot match Xavier in a psi battle. It's a pretty easy fight if X wants to. When Magneto battles Xavier via telepathic Xavier is holding back. Saying Magneto can resist X plus has a helmet is mixing feats.



He can resist him naturally, but the helmet helps him resist even better. What's wrong with that explanation?



> It really doesn't sound like he's talking about gravity. If he was he wouldn't say IF he would say SINCE those two. Because, like you said he already manipulated gravity. Why say if they when it already happened? I believe he is talking about Erik and Magneto as two separate people.







> Stellar fusion, children, is born of the interaction between gravity and magnetism!





> Like I said, read Magneto War. I'm pretty sure Magneto himself says that Joseph is a younger version of him. I'm not 100% of the dialogue tho.



I never denied that. What I'm saying is that's not the reason Joseph was more powerful.



> Answered above



You didn't answer the wormhole bit (in fact you dropped it after I pointed out how badly you had misinterpreted that article). I already responded to the other part.



> Again, what does this prove?



That Magneto is capable of affecting powerful and exotic beings and forms of energy.



> *Even IF it was it isn't normal to Magneto so he would need a sample of it*



Which he can do by analyzing the energy fields



> I never said it would take long, but people assume it will go "Fight! speedblitz"



This fight would probably last at least a few minutes, no matter who wins.



> I'm honestly skeptical about that tbh. A couple of pages before that he says he felt the power of his attack and his chances of winning were diminishing.



Against Phoenix? He still won, didn't he? And the Phoenix Force is cosmic energy. He drained it from Jean.



> This is how the scene goes...
> Magneto walks in > Tosses anything metal or within his powers. Says he just wants to talk. They attack him and say he's lying(about the Doom gas thing). He kidnaps Beast and break the control Doom has over him. Unless the issue I had was broken Magneto had a preemptive strike.



You're missing the point. Your interpretation of the scene assumes that Thor just happens to comment on how Magneto can control Mjolnir before even trying to regain control of it. My interpretation is that he affects it and Thor reacts to try to get it back, but has trouble, so then he makes his comment.

Then of course there's the scene from Journey Into Mystery where Magneto stops Mjolnir as it is pursuing him. 



> This is my fandom taking over. I'd like to see Magneto fight more than Thor



The point was that you said that Thor can regain control of Mjolnir meant Magneto controlling it wasn't a good feat, I was just pointing out how good Thor was, so it's still a good feat.



> That's a valid excuss tho. Magneto's weakness is a product of Proteus. It's not like Magneto came into battle weakened. Proteus DID that to him.



And Kazakiri doesn't have Proteus' powers, so your point is?



> Why doesn't it? Magneto wasn't able to touch Proteus until he physically and mentally tried to touch Magneto. It's not like Magneto did what you think on a whim. He got a sample of it when Proteus touched him.



Proteus was a non-corporeal being possessing someone else. Physical contact doesn't mean much under those circumstances.



> Scan of him allowing light through.



You already posted one yourself. Monica going through his shields, as he obviously hadn't set them up to block light at that point. Makes sense, after all, since if light couldn't get it, he wouldn't be able to see. So letting light in is the default setting, but he can block it if he wishes to.



> No, I'm not dismissing Mjolnir. It's the same thing in fact. If Thor or Magneto knows light is coming through he will manipulate it before it gets past his shield. You think light CAN'T get past his shield. I know if he knows it's coming it won't, but to say it CAN'T is wrong.



It can't if he doesn't want it to and sets up his shield to block it. The Dazzler scan proves this. Of course there are limits, if he was hit by a laser fired from a powerful Herald - level character or higher it could overwhelm his shields, but the same is true for any kind of attack. 



> Yes I know, but to say Magneto can take Mjolnir away Thor indefinite is like saying Light cannot past through his shield.



Strawman, I never said he could take it away from him indefinitely. Only someone on Odin's level or above could do that.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go watch Dr. Who.


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 10, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Also, I have a question for you, Greed. Can Kazakiri attack over interstellar distances? Magneto can.



She probably could, since she doesn't require air, and can fly. It would just take her forever to get back to where she was. I don't know if that would count as a BFR though.



> What's stopping him from just wormholing to Alpha Centauri or someplace and then blasting her from there?


Whats Alpha Centauri? If he can teleport her to somewhere very far away then he can probably win by BFR, since it would take her a while to get back to the fight.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> She probably could, since she doesn't require air, and can fly. It would just take her forever to get back to where she was. I don't know if that would count as a BFR though.



What I mean is does she have that kind of range. Magneto can influence things from light-years away with his powers.



> Whats Alpha Centauri?







> If he can teleport her to somewhere very far away then he can probably win by BFR, since it would take her a while to get back to the fight.



He could maybe do that, but my idea was that he would teleport himself and attack her from outside of her range.


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 10, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> What I mean is does she have that kind of range. Magneto can influence things from light-years away with his powers.


No, I believe her range is planetary at best. 




>



I guess I didn't think when I said that. This is what I get for sleeping through science class.



> He could maybe do that, but my idea was that he would teleport himself and attack her from outside of her range.



He has attacks that can reach from lightyears away?


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## Kurou (Aug 10, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> He has attacks that can reach from lightyears away?





Banhammer said:


> 100 km is impressive
> 
> 100 light years is more.
> 
> Kazakiri is lucky if she realizes she's passing through the sun by the time she the notion the battle has started hits her.




That was posted around page 3.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2010)

Yes. See this, for example: 





Keep in mind this was while he was weakened. Additionally, that thing was moving at FTL speed, and it became denser the farther it traveled, and was already powerful enough to destroy the earth when it was launched.


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 10, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Yes. See this, for example:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So he changed the direction of the bullet thing while it was lightyears away from him?

That proves he can use use his magnetism abilities while far away I guess. 

Would he be able to control Kazakiri's body to keep her from coming back? Though even if he couldn't, it would take Kazakiri a very long time to get back to the fight, since she is only hypersonic. I would think that would be a BFR anyways.

Also, How far can he wormhole people?


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## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> So he changed the direction of the bullet thing while it was lightyears away from him?
> 
> That proves he can use use his magnetism abilities while far away I guess.
> 
> ...



You're missing the point. I'm not suggesting he BFR her (although that is a viable option), I'm suggesting he wormholes himself far away and uses his long range to attack her when she can't retaliate.

Also his range shown was only across the earth, but he could likely go farther, and he can also survive in space so he could use wormholes to hop to a destination one by one.


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 10, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> You're missing the point. I'm not suggesting he BFR her (although that is a viable option), I'm suggesting he wormholes himself far away and uses his long range to attack her when she can't retaliate.



I thought you were saying that he could wormhole her away and attack her from a distance, not that he could wormhole himself away and attack from a distance. My mistake. 



> Also his range shown was only across the earth, but he could likely go farther, and he can also survive in space so he could use wormholes to hop to a destination one by one.



I see what your saying now. Do you have any proof that he could use his abilities to his fullest from that far away? Because all I saw him do was redirect the ship Kitty Pride was in. 

Was his intent to hurt kitty Pride? If that was the case then why wouldn't he just attack her directly from that distance? But yea, if he can actually attack her from that far away, and hurt her enough to kill her, then he would likely win.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 10, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Was his intent to hurt kitty Pride?



no, he actually got her out of the shell


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## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> I thought you were saying that he could wormhole her away and attack her from a distance, not that he could wormhole himself away and attack from a distance. My mistake.



Well he could probably do both. 



> I see what your saying now. Do you have any proof that he could use his abilities to his fullest from that far away? Because all I saw him do was redirect the ship Kitty Pride was in.



Something with more than enough KE to destroy the earth.



> Was his intent to hurt kitty Pride? If that was the case then why wouldn't he just attack her directly from that distance? But yea, if he can actually attack her from that far away, and hurt her enough to kill her, then he would likely win.



No, he was just trying to redirect its path so it didn't hit earth.


----------



## Fang (Aug 10, 2010)

Magneto gonna pull a Luke.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 10, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Well he could probably do both.



I know, which is why I said it didn't really make much of a difference either way.



> Something with more than enough KE to destroy the earth.


I see. He may be able to win if he can harm her from a distance then. Though if he could deliver enough energy to destroy the earth then why hasn't he actually done it? He should be listed as a planet buster rather then a life wiper if that is the case. Then again, how accurate is he when attacking things from far away? 



> No, he was just trying to redirect its path so it didn't hit earth.



Oh, I see. Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> I see. He may be able to win if he can harm her from a distance then. Though if he could deliver enough energy to destroy the earth then why hasn't he actually done it? He should be listed as a planet buster rather then a life wiper if that is the case. Then again, how accurate is he when attacking things from far away?



He as no reason to want to destroy the earth 

Also he tracked the thing while it was moving at FTL speed


----------



## Fang (Aug 10, 2010)

Probably has to do with the overreaching fact that Magneto only wants to subjugate or enslave baseline humanity and take the world for Mutants because he views his kind as homo superior to homo sapiens.


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 10, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Not in the comic I read.
> 
> More proof:



The next issue, X-Men #25 Wolverine vs Magneto and Wolverine says "Hesitant bub?" and slashes him. Meaning that Magneto wasn't trying to kill them at that point.



> He can resist him naturally, but the helmet helps him resist even better. What's wrong with that explanation?


 Post-helmet? No he can't.




The chick asks "How so?" And he goes into Erik and Magneto. No where is it said he can manipulate gravity. 




> I never denied that. What I'm saying is that's not the reason Joseph was more powerful.


 Go read it.




> You didn't answer the wormhole bit (in fact you dropped it after I pointed out how badly you had misinterpreted that article). I already responded to the other part.


  I said I believe it was a EM wormhole. 





> That Magneto is capable of affecting powerful and exotic beings and forms of energy.


He didn't effect Galatus. Galatus didn't notice anything. It was just a reflex. C'mon do you honestly think that Magneto would manipulate someone to shoot something at him? 




> Which he can do by analyzing the energy fields


Which proves my point that he will need time. Why are we still talking about this if we both agree?




> Against Phoenix? He still won, didn't he? And the Phoenix Force is cosmic energy. He drained it from Jean.


Spider-Man




> You're missing the point. Your interpretation of the scene assumes that Thor just happens to comment on how Magneto can control Mjolnir before even trying to regain control of it. My interpretation is that he affects it and Thor reacts to try to get it back, but has trouble, so then he makes his comment.


 I forgot that Thor doesn't make comments on everything he does 




> Then of course there's the scene from Journey Into Mystery where Magneto stops Mjolnir as it is pursuing him.


 And tell me how did that end? 




> The point was that you said that Thor can regain control of Mjolnir meant Magneto controlling it wasn't a good feat, I was just pointing out how good Thor was, so it's still a good feat.


Cool




> And Kazakiri doesn't have Proteus' powers, so your point is?


That Magneto was only beaten up because of his enemy. 





> Proteus was a non-corporeal being possessing someone else. Physical contact doesn't mean much under those circumstances.


Go re-read X Necrosha.



> You already posted one yourself. Monica going through his shields, as he obviously hadn't set them up to block light at that point. Makes sense, after all, since if light couldn't get it, he wouldn't be able to see. So letting light in is the default setting, but he can block it if he wishes to.


Scan of Magneto able to switch his shield from physical to others.




> It can't if he doesn't want it to and sets up his shield to block it. The Dazzler scan proves this. Of course there are limits, if he was hit by a laser fired from a powerful Herald - level character or higher it could overwhelm his shields, but the same is true for any kind of attack.


 A lot of shit can't hit Magneto if he doesn't want to, but it's called tactics from his opponent to allow that to hit him. 




Endless Mike said:


> Yes. See this, for example:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He was at full health before trying this


----------



## Lucifeller (Aug 10, 2010)

TWF said:


> Probably has to do with the overreaching fact that Magneto only wants to subjugate or enslave baseline humanity and take the world for Mutants because he views his kind as homo superior to homo sapiens.



From a biological standpoint he was right, and before House of M, mutants WERE going to supplant humans as the new human species, since they were the next step in evolution.

Hard to argue with facts. The man may have employed crappy methods, but his logic was sound, and given the general attitude of humans towards mutants, I can't exactly blame him for not wanting dialog - most humans in Marvel are racist fucks or ignorant idiots who wouldn't talk to any mutant, bad or good, on principle or out of ignorance and fear.


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 10, 2010)

Lucifeller said:


> From a biological standpoint he was right, and before House of M, mutants WERE going to supplant humans as the new human species, since they were the next step in evolution.
> 
> Hard to argue with facts. The man may have employed crappy methods, but his logic was sound, and given the general attitude of humans towards mutants, I can't exactly blame him for not wanting dialog - most humans in Marvel are racist fucks or ignorant idiots who wouldn't talk to any mutant, bad or good, on principle or out of ignorance and fear.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> The next issue, X-Men #25 Wolverine vs Magneto and Wolverine says "Hesitant bub?" and slashes him. Meaning that Magneto wasn't trying to kill them at that point.



He obviously was as he was going to wipe out the human race and any mutants who didn't follow him.



> Post-helmet? No he can't.



Where is this stated?



Here it says that he erected mental barriers, which are unrelated to the helmet.



> The chick asks "How so?" And he goes into Erik and Magneto. No where is it said he can manipulate gravity.



It's implied by Beast in the second dialogue balloon.



> Go read it.



Burden of proof is on you to come up with scans that disprove my point. I'm not going to do your work for you.



> I said I believe it was a EM wormhole.



And I pointed out that there was no such thing IRL, and if there was such a thing in Marvel's fictional universe, it would have been mentioned, but they just said "wormhole". Furthermore, the article you linked to try to support it was completely misunderstood by you. So you have no argument here.



> He didn't effect Galatus. Galatus didn't notice anything. It was just a reflex. C'mon do you honestly think that Magneto would manipulate someone to shoot something at him?



He obviously effected him, since a reflex is defined as an automatic reaction to something. If there was no effect, there would have been nothing to react to. He didn't actually accomplish anything other than the equivalent of making Galactus blink, but even that is impressive considering how powerful big G is.



> Which proves my point that he will need time. Why are we still talking about this if we both agree?



Because you seem to think it will take too long and he'll lose.



> Spider-Man



He was able to face him more effectively later. And the Jean example still stands.



> I forgot that Thor doesn't make comments on everything he does



A lot of the time he doesn't. However, it would make absolutely no sense to comment first before even trying to do something about it.



> And tell me how did that end?



Stop strawmanning, I never said Magneto could beat Thor, in fact I've said in this very thread that Thor's control is greater than his. But the fact that he's able to do what he can to Mjolnir is impressive.



> That Magneto was only beaten up because of his enemy.



*Which won't happen here as Kazakiri doesn't have those same powers, so he'll be able to do to her what he did to Proteus but faster.*

Get it?



> Go re-read X Necrosha.



Stop telling me to read stuff. If it supports your argument, then post a scan of it, instead of making me do all of the legwork for you. I've been posting scans in this thread to support my arguments, not just telling you to read the comics they come from.



> Scan of Magneto able to switch his shield from physical to others.



I never said he switched it from physical to energy, it can block one or both. If you want another scan of him deflecting light, here:

here on the wiki.

He deflects light around him to make himself invisible.

Here it says he can control the entire EM Spectrum (that includes light):

Hidan's type 2 immortality



> A lot of shit can't hit Magneto if he doesn't want to, but it's called tactics from his opponent to allow that to hit him.



Aka a surprise attack.



> He was at full health before trying this



But not full power.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 10, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> He as no reason to want to destroy the earth


No, I know he doesn't want to destroy earth, since he wants it for mutant kind. I meant that if he could use a attack with enough power to wipe out a planet _on his opponent_, then why hasn't he? I should have clarified, sorry.




> Also he tracked the thing while it was moving at FTL speed


Judging from  Veikuri's post, it took a lot out of him to do that. Though considering that Kazakiri would only be on the other side of the planet(in comparison to far away in space like in the scans you posted), It's likely it wouldn't take as much out of him as it did when he controlled the bullet thing.

Out of curiosity, has he ever showed to attack people from the other side of the globe in the comics? I would think it would make it much easier for him to win against his opponents if he did this


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 10, 2010)

He has been shown using his powers on something on another side of the cosmos...

Hasn't the kitty bullet feat been discussed in this thread yet?


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 10, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> He has been shown using his powers on something on another side of the cosmos...
> 
> Hasn't the kitty bullet feat been discussed in this thread yet?



No, EM posted that already. I was just wondering if he has every attacked someone from the other side of the globe. Because that should be a really easy way for him to win fights.

But, again, since Magneto can deliver enough force to redirect a spaceship from lightyears away, he should be able to atleast harm Kazakiri from the other side of the planet. Unless that was a really high end feat and contradicts his eariler showings of power.

I'll give my concession here unless it actually was a inconsistent feat. If anyone still has anyone questions about Kazakiri for this thread then feel free to ask me though.


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 10, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> He obviously was as he was going to wipe out the human race and any mutants who didn't follow him.


Actions speak louder than words.





> Where is this stated?









> Here it says that he erected mental barriers, which are unrelated to the helmet.


I said *post-helmet*. 




> It's implied by Beast in the second dialogue balloon.


You still never told me why Beast is speaking in a past tense if Magneto was manipulating gravity in that scan.




> Burden of proof is on you to come up with scans that disprove my point. I'm not going to do your work for you.


It gets tiresome when you bring something up without knowing anything about it. 



> And I pointed out that there was no such thing IRL, and if there was such a thing in Marvel's fictional universe, it would have been mentioned, but they just said "wormhole". Furthermore, the article you linked to try to support it was completely misunderstood by you. So you have no argument here.


Because it was never stated he can control gravity. Every of his other powers dwell from the singular source... "Magnetism". He also doesn't have a secondary mutation. 



> He obviously effected him, since a reflex is defined as an automatic reaction to something. If there was no effect, there would have been nothing to react to. He didn't actually accomplish anything other than the equivalent of making Galactus blink, but even that is impressive considering how powerful big G is.



Post scans of the confrontation.



> Because you seem to think it will take too long and he'll lose.


When did I say he'll take too long?




> He was able to face him more effectively later. And the Jean example still stands.


When?



> A lot of the time he doesn't. However, it would make absolutely no sense to comment first before even trying to do something about it.


This is Thor we're talking about dude... He almost ALWAYS talks while attacking/defending/anything. Point is. Magneto came in with a preemptive strike. You cannot refute this.



> Stop strawmanning, I never said Magneto could beat Thor, in fact I've said in this very thread that Thor's control is greater than his. But the fact that he's able to do what he can to Mjolnir is impressive.


Cool stuff. What's your point?



> *Which won't happen here as Kazakiri doesn't have those same powers, so he'll be able to do to her what he did to Proteus but faster.*
> 
> Get it?


Faster? PROTEUS HAD TO TOUCH HIM. What don't you get about this? They above earth in a battle and Magneto didn't do ANYTHING to him. Only until Proteus touched Magneto is when he counter attacked. Stop dodging that or making up your own story. Like I said and will keep saying. Go read it.




> Stop telling me to read stuff. If it supports your argument, then post a scan of it, instead of making me do all of the legwork for you. I've been posting scans in this thread to support my arguments, not just telling you to read the comics they come from.


 I've been doing most of the work and you just half post something. Like the scan where he summons lightning and attacks Storm, when in fact Storm summoned it.





> I never said he switched it from physical to energy, it can block one or both. If you want another scan of him deflecting light, here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 10, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> Without any external amps, don't think so. He was able to bring his helmet from one part of the globe to him, but he needed a good amount of concentration to do so.



So then attacking Kazakiri from the other side of the globe would be hard if not impossible to do?


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Aug 10, 2010)

Lucifeller said:


> From a biological standpoint he was right, and before House of M, mutants WERE going to supplant humans as the new human species, since they were the next step in evolution.
> 
> Hard to argue with facts. The man may have employed crappy methods, but his logic was sound, and given the general attitude of humans towards mutants, I can't exactly blame him for not wanting dialog - most humans in Marvel are racist fucks or ignorant idiots who wouldn't talk to any mutant, bad or good, on principle or out of ignorance and fear.



actually I think they where designed to supplant..the celestials..or the cosmic order or something  but not humanity...

that man kind reacted the way it did and does...is no surprise humans are dicks..its why we're the dominate species on earth after all


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 10, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> So then attacking Kazakiri from the other side of the globe would be hard if not impossible to do?



Pretty much. He's shown to do a planetary EMP attack, but it didn't do any damage to people beside turning off all the electricity on the planet causing hospitals/planes and what not leading to deaths.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 10, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> Pretty much. He's shown to do a planetary EMP attack, but it didn't do any damage to people beside turning off all the electricity on the planet causing hospitals/planes and what not leading to deaths.



That won't really effect Kazakiri very much lol.


----------



## Lucifeller (Aug 11, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> So then attacking Kazakiri from the other side of the globe would be hard if not impossible to do?



He had no trouble attacking cities from Asteroid M. Mostly, he appeared in person to make an impression - a stupid thing to do, but I chalk that up to either publicity stunt or CIS. He doesn't really NEED to come off Asteroid M to waste things and people.

Hell nothing prevents him from going on Asteroid M and then simply colonydropping every satellite in orbit around Earth (and there's a LOT of that crap around Earth) on anyone he damn well pleases to soften them up, then finish the job with his powers while they are recovering. Nothing except comicbook drama conventions, that is.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 11, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> No, EM posted that already. I was just wondering if he has every attacked someone from the other side of the globe. Because that should be a really easy way for him to win fights.



Can't remember. It seems very likely, specially since Storm has this feat, and they're both Alpha level.


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 11, 2010)

Lucifeller said:


> He had no trouble attacking cities from Asteroid M. Mostly, he appeared in person to make an impression - a stupid thing to do, but I chalk that up to either publicity stunt or CIS. He doesn't really NEED to come off Asteroid M to waste things and people.
> 
> Hell nothing prevents him from going on Asteroid M and then simply colonydropping every satellite in orbit around Earth (and there's a LOT of that crap around Earth) on anyone he damn well pleases to soften them up, then finish the job with his powers while they are recovering. Nothing except comicbook drama conventions, that is.



Asteroid M falls under the category of amps, no?


----------



## Lucifeller (Aug 12, 2010)

How is it an amp? It's a piece of rock Magneto decided to rip off the surface of Earth and put in orbit with his power... and he KEEPS the damn thing there himself.

If anything, it's a tool to him. And since he's the one physically keeping it up there, it should be allowed.

Hell, if things really go badly, he can always pull a Char and colonydrop Axis Asteroid M on Fuze. Immense power or not, I'm fairly certain that'd leave a nasty mark...


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 12, 2010)

Lucifeller said:


> How is it an amp? It's a piece of rock Magneto decided to rip off the surface of Earth and put in orbit with his power... and he KEEPS the damn thing there himself.
> 
> If anything, it's a tool to him. And since he's the one physically keeping it up there, it should be allowed.
> 
> Hell, if things really go badly, he can always pull a Char and colonydrop Axis Asteroid M on Fuze. Immense power or not, I'm fairly certain that'd leave a nasty mark...




Because it amplifies his powers?


----------



## MisterShin (Aug 12, 2010)

Lucifeller said:


> How is it an amp? It's a piece of rock Magneto decided to rip off the surface of Earth and put in orbit with his power... and he KEEPS the damn thing there himself.
> 
> If anything, it's a tool to him. And since he's the one physically keeping it up there, it should be allowed.
> 
> Hell, if things really go badly, he can always pull a Char and colonydrop Axis Asteroid M on Fuze. Immense power or not, I'm fairly certain that'd leave a nasty mark...


Fuze can atomize it, EM or Earth Manipulate. 

Can Magneto be frozen? Or does his shield somehow stop this.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Aug 12, 2010)

Show that Fuzw can atomise something as big as an asteroid though that may not even be necessary. That ice attack is not fast enough and no it would not do anything to his shield. He has once manipulated the molecules of an ice spike so ice may not be such a good idea.


----------



## Lucifeller (Aug 12, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> Because it amplifies his powers?



Please tell me you are joking. Someone with Mags as an avatar should know that Asteroid M itself did NOTHING to amp his powers - in fact, it actually tied up part of his power because he had to constantly adjust its orbit to keep it from either being shuttled into space or crashing on Earth. It was no amp whatsoever. About the only real amps Mags used were a piece of Celestial tech once, and the Kick drug (which is Sublime, anyway, and counts more as mind control than amping...).


----------



## MisterShin (Aug 12, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Show that Fuzw can atomise something as big as an asteroid though that may not even be necessary. That ice attack is not fast enough and no it would not do anything to his shield. He has once manipulated the molecules of an ice spike so ice may not be such a good idea.


I cannot show that she can atomise something that big, but as you said it is not necessary to destroy it when you can teleport away from it.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Archangel Gabriel (on left) vs Fuze=kazakiri (on right)
Up and coming battle in (To Aru)


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 12, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> No, I know he doesn't want to destroy earth, since he wants it for mutant kind. I meant that if he could use a attack with enough power to wipe out a planet _on his opponent_, then why hasn't he? I should have clarified, sorry.



Because it would cause unwanted collateral damage?



> Out of curiosity, has he ever showed to attack people from the other side of the globe in the comics? I would think it would make it much easier for him to win against his opponents if he did this



Here he is manipulating stuff from halfway around the world:



Here he's manipulating 37 satellites while fighting the Avengers:




Here he picks up Fabian Cortez and flings him 50 miles away:



There are more, but these should be sufficient for now.



Veikuri said:


> Actions speak louder than words.



You mean like how he had that Avalon ship causing massive destruction all over the earth? No mutants could have possibly been in danger from that, right?



> *snip*



And you believe what he says? Xavier doesn't believe it. He says it's a trap. Magneto has demonstrated telepathy and telepathic defenses without his helmet.



> I said *post-helmet*.



And when do you define the cutoff for that to be?



> You still never told me why Beast is speaking in a past tense if Magneto was manipulating gravity in that scan.



Another strawman. I never said he was doing it at that specific moment. Magneto himself wasn't even in that scan. They were talking about what he had done and what he could do.



> It gets tiresome when you bring something up without knowing anything about it.



I apparently know more about it than you, since you can't show me the part that contradicts what I'm saying.



> Because it was never stated he can control gravity. Every of his other powers dwell from the singular source... "Magnetism". He also doesn't have a secondary mutation.



We've been over this before. He reversed gravity (I know you'll say that doesn't count because it's old but you have no proof he lost that ability), Beast said he could manipulate gravity, he created the wormhole which proves he can manipulate gravity, and it is said he embodies the Unified Field Theory, which includes gravity. A secondary mutation is not necessary, as he simply was unable to fully master all of his original powers at first. He has been getting more powerful over the years.

Here is an official profile which says he can control gravity:



^You can't argue with that.



> Post scans of the confrontation.



Sure thing:





> When did I say he'll take too long?



When you said he would lose the fight.



> When?



When what? I already posted scan of the Jean/Phoenix fight.



> This is Thor we're talking about dude... He almost ALWAYS talks while attacking/defending/anything. Point is. Magneto came in with a preemptive strike. You cannot refute this.



But not before trying to react to something.



Here he and Beta Ray Bill lift Asgard without saying anything. My Thor folder is huge but it took only a few seconds to find that, and that's just the first example.



> Cool stuff. What's your point?



That Magneto can affect strange and unusual forms of matter and energy.



> Faster? PROTEUS HAD TO TOUCH HIM. What don't you get about this? They above earth in a battle and Magneto didn't do ANYTHING to him. Only until Proteus touched Magneto is when he counter attacked. Stop dodging that or making up your own story. Like I said and will keep saying. Go read it.



Proteus is a non-corporeal being. Do you deny this?



> I've been doing most of the work and you just half post something. Like the scan where he summons lightning and attacks Storm, when in fact Storm summoned it.



He reversed it on her, how does that not imply control of lightning?

If you want a scan of him creating electricity by himself, look here:



Here Magneto has created a storm with lightning that Storm says she can't control:





> This is your logic it seems.
> 
> Person blocks a punch therefor cannot be hit by a punch.



You are so fond of the strawman fallacy. I never said he can't be hit by light, I said that he can set up his shield to block it. I've proven that already, you're ignoring the evidence.



> Proof he was not at full power.





Here Emma Frost says he had psychic shields up, disproving your "no telepathic defenses without his helmet" spiel.

As for your question, read here:





> Despite this and the High Evolutionary's apparent ability to retrieve the bullet and Kitty, *Magneto chose to focus on regaining his powers*, though he memorized the metals of the bullet allowing him to keep a trace on it.



Emphasis Mine.

For a Magneto fan, you sure seem to be downplaying him a lot.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 12, 2010)

it's always great to see Endless Mike doing the old scan karate


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 12, 2010)

Thanks. I enjoy a good debate.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 12, 2010)

Emma Frost of course needing no vouching when it comes to psychic power housing.


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 12, 2010)

> Here he is manipulating stuff from halfway around the world:


 This looks familiar... Isn't he in that wagon with them..?




> Here he picks up Fabian Cortez and flings him 50 miles away:


He asked from across the globe.





> You mean like how he had that Avalon ship causing massive destruction all over the earth? No mutants could have possibly been in danger from that, right?


What?



> And you believe what he says? Xavier doesn't believe it. He says it's a trap. Magneto has demonstrated telepathy and telepathic defenses without his helmet.


Logically? Yes. Story wise? No.



> And when do you define the cutoff for that to be?


When he starts putting tech in his shield to block telepaths, of course.



> Another strawman. I never said he was doing it at that specific moment. Magneto himself wasn't even in that scan. They were talking about what he had done and what he could do.


The scan I was talking about is Magneto making a wormhole. Why is Beast talking in a past tense if he's talking about the wormhole?



> I apparently know more about it than you, since you can't show me the part that contradicts what I'm saying.


Like?



> We've been over this before. He reversed gravity (I know you'll say that doesn't count because it's old but you have no proof he lost that ability), Beast said he could manipulate gravity, he created the wormhole which proves he can manipulate gravity, and it is said he embodies the Unified Field Theory, which includes gravity. A secondary mutation is not necessary, as he simply was unable to fully master all of his original powers at first. He has been getting more powerful over the years.


Also the fact he's in the danger room doing that. 



> Here is an official profile which says he can control gravity:
> 
> 
> 
> ^You can't argue with that.



Now was that so hard then linking wikia pages and what not? 
Sure thing:







> When you said he would lose the fight.


I've never said he'd take too long. I said it will take time. Which you seem to agree moments ago. 




> When what? I already posted scan of the Jean/Phoenix fight.


Spider-Man


But not before trying to react to something.





> Here he and Beta Ray Bill lift Asgard without saying anything. My Thor folder is huge but it took only a few seconds to find that, and that's just the first example.


Good to know out of 50 years Thor doesn't comment on something once. 



> That Magneto can affect strange and unusual forms of matter and energy.


Cool story. 




> Proteus is a non-corporeal being. Do you deny this?


 Point?




> He reversed it on her, how does that not imply control of lightning?


When did I say he cannot manipulate lightning?


> If you want a scan of him creating electricity by himself, look here:


 Issue?



> Here Magneto has created a storm with lightning that Storm says she can't control:


Without using amps please.




> You are so fond of the strawman fallacy. I never said he can't be hit by light, I said that he can set up his shield to block it. I've proven that already, you're ignoring the evidence.


Again, cool story. It's canon that light can get past his shield and it's also canon that he can block light. 





> Here Emma Frost says he had psychic shields up, disproving your "no telepathic defenses without his helmet" spiel.


Emma fucking Frost. I've said before anyone beside Xavier he can fend off. Xavier will rape his mind if he chooses without his shield. That is canon. 

I like how you dodge my scans which Magneto states it himself. 

As for your question, read here:



> Emphasis Mine.


WTF. High Evolutionary notices Kitty's bullet and informs Magneto that it is a mutant with phases ability. Magneto says it himself he has more important things to deal with(getting his mutant powers back) and remembers the bullet. Really that is the ultimate twist of facts 



> For a Magneto fan, you sure seem to be downplaying him a lot.


 I like Magneto not featneto.



Lucifeller said:


> Please tell me you are joking. Someone with Mags as an avatar should know that Asteroid M itself did NOTHING to amp his powers - in fact, it actually tied up part of his power because he had to constantly adjust its orbit to keep it from either being shuttled into space or crashing on Earth. It was no amp whatsoever. About the only real amps Mags used were a piece of Celestial tech once, and the Kick drug (which is Sublime, anyway, and counts more as mind control than amping...).


 Are you kidding me?  Asteriod M was notorious for having dangerous technology against humans.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 12, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> This looks familiar... Isn't he in that wagon with them..?



No. Mesmero was in the wagon.



> He asked from across the globe.



He was asking for general long - range attacks and manipulation.



> What?



It's in the comic you told me to read. The Avalon ship was causing disruptions and destruction all over the earth.



> Logically? Yes. Story wise? No.



If it's in the story, it's true story-wise. You're simply grasping at straws here.



> When he starts putting tech in his shield to block telepaths, of course.



Which is when? Because if you don't define it, then you can just say that any scan I post was before that happened.



> The scan I was talking about is Magneto making a wormhole. Why is Beast talking in a past tense if he's talking about the wormhole?



I'm talking about this scan:



Beast says he can use gravity. I've only showed this to you about a dozen times.



> Like?



Like? That's up to you, buddy. If you say that my interpretation of a scan is wrong, you have to back that up by posting scans that show you're right.



> Also the fact he's in the danger room doing that.



So you have one possible point of evidence against one of my examples. So what?



> Now was that so hard then linking wikia pages and what not?



So you admit he can manipulate gravity?



> I've never said he'd take too long. I said it will take time. Which you seem to agree moments ago.



You said he would lose the fight. That implies that you think it would take him too long, since he would be defeated before he was done.



> Spider-Man



Here:

Link removed

I posted this already.



> Good to know out of 50 years Thor doesn't comment on something once.





Did you miss the part where I found this casually after looking through my folder for only a few seconds? How many examples would I need to post for you to accept it?

It doesn't change the core fact that Thor's reflexes would make him try to retake control of Mjolnir before saying anything, and this is bolstered by the Journey into Mystery scan where Magneto manipulates Mjolnir.



> Point?



The point is that physical bodies are only a host for him. So physical contact is not very relevant.



> When did I say he cannot manipulate lightning?



When I said it looked like he was using lightning after being weakened.



> Issue?



Not sure. I don't memorize the issue numbers of every comic I read. Why is that information even necessary? I know it's canon to 616.



> Without using amps please.



What amp did he have there?

Besides, it's stated multiple times that he controls the entire electromagnetic spectrum. Saying that he can't create lightning is just asinine.



> Again, cool story. It's canon that light can get past his shield and it's also canon that he can block light.



Because he can allow it in or not. This is a very simple concept, why can't you understand it?



> Emma fucking Frost. I've said before anyone beside Xavier he can fend off. Xavier will rape his mind if he chooses without his shield. That is canon.



Moving the goalposts. You said he had no mental defenses at all without his helmet.



> I like how you dodge my scans which Magneto states it himself.



I already brought that up. He was lying. Xavier didn't believe him and said it was a trap. Do you even read the scans you post? Besides, I'm pretty sure the scan with Emma Frost I posted is newer than the one you posted.



> WTF. High Evolutionary notices Kitty's bullet and informs Magneto that it is a mutant with phases ability. Magneto says it himself he has more important things to deal with(getting his mutant powers back) and remembers the bullet. Really that is the ultimate twist of facts



It proves his powers weren't at full capacity.



> I like Magneto not featneto.



So you ignore all of the evidence I post?



> Are you kidding me? Asteriod M was notorious for having dangerous technology against humans.



Post a scan of it amping Magneto's own powers.


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 12, 2010)

No. Mesmero was in the wagon.



He was asking for general long - range attacks and manipulation.




> It's in the comic you told me to read. The Avalon ship was causing disruptions and destruction all over the earth.


Are you talking about his planetary EMP blast?





> If it's in the story, it's true story-wise. You're simply grasping at straws here.


What? You asked if I believed him. If I were in that universe and people were killing my kind then I would believe him. See Colossus. Reading wise I wouldn't go along with him. How am I grasping at straws?




> Which is when? Because if you don't define it, then you can just say that any scan I post was before that happened.



Anything post Genosha, after Xorneto if you don't want to consider him Magneto. Some do.



> I'm talking about this scan:
> 
> 
> 
> Beast says he can use gravity. I've only showed this to you about a dozen times.


Yes, this is post Magneto's wormhole right? If so, why is Beast talking in a past tense if he already manipulated gravity. It doesn't seem like he's talking about Magneto's power and more about if Erik and Magneto. Like I said countless times.



> Like? That's up to you, buddy. If you say that my interpretation of a scan is wrong, you have to back that up by posting scans that show you're right.


I do.



> So you have one possible point of evidence against one of my examples. So what?


Which is very plausible. 



> So you admit he can manipulate gravity?


If that's canon then yes. 



> You said he would lose the fight. That implies that you think it would take him too long, since he would be defeated before he was done.


 He would lose the fight going by the beginning of the thread when Greed said her core wasn't in her and she can regen from any attack. Like honestly what is he to do there? I even said if he can manipulate her core it will take time, not saying he'll lose, but people kept posting blitz one-liners.




> Here:
> 
> Link removed
> 
> I posted this already.


When did they fight anytime before and after this as cosmic spidey?




> Did you miss the part where I found this casually after looking through my folder for only a few seconds? How many examples would I need to post for you to accept it?
> 
> It doesn't change the core fact that Thor's reflexes would make him try to retake control of Mjolnir before saying anything, and this is bolstered by the Journey into Mystery scan where Magneto manipulates Mjolnir.


Are you honestly arguing that Thor talks almost as much as Deadpool when he fights? Like seriously? I don't even read his stuff except when he makes appearances and I know his ass talks talks talks. It's like IC for him to do that.




> The point is that physical bodies are only a host for him. So physical contact is not very relevant.


What is your point in this post? Magneto tried to manipulate Proteus after he touched him. Told him he needed a sample. Which he got when he got touched. Why are you arguing this?




> When I said it looked like he was using lightning after being weakened.


I said he cannot summon lighting. Like Storm. He's more like movie Pyro when it comes to that. 




> Not sure. I don't memorize the issue numbers of every comic I read. Why is that information even necessary? I know it's canon to 616.


Like I've said countless times. Reading only one scan and not knowing what happened before or after can be misleading.




> What amp did he have there?


 You know that scan where it says "Magneto now controls the world"? That amp. 



> Besides, it's stated multiple times that he controls the entire electromagnetic spectrum. Saying that he can't create lightning is just asinine.


I guess now he can create fire,gamma waves,cosmic rays,proton rays etc?




> Because he can allow it in or not. This is a very simple concept, why can't you understand it?


Because it sounds stupid to say he can only be hit when he allows it. 



> Moving the goalposts. You said he had no mental defenses at all without his helmet.


Like I said before. If Xavier wants to mind rape him he has no defense against it. Why can't you see that? This isn't math. Xavier does not = telepath and you cannot replace X with E.



> I already brought that up. He was lying. Xavier didn't believe him and said it was a trap. Do you even read the scans you post? Besides, I'm pretty sure the scan with Emma Frost I posted is newer than the one you posted.


516... 522.. c'mon it's not THAT newer. Just because Xavier doesn't believe him doesn't mean he's lying. 

This isn't the first time Magneto joined the X-Men and we all know(should know) how badly that went.




> It proves his powers weren't at full capacity.


No it doesn't. That is what they're talking about. A flashback.



> So you ignore all of the evidence I post?


You asked a question and I answered it. If I was ignoring everything you wrote I wouldn't sit here and reply to each of your post. I'm saying I like Magneto as a whole. Not just his higher-end feats.




> Post a scan of it amping Magneto's own powers.






This should be enough. I'm not going to dig through every Asteroid M encounter and post every scan. I hope you can read the first one. I know it's a lil small, but photobucket keeps shrinking the scans.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 13, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> That's because it come down to earth. It wasn't meant to hurt anyone and no one got hurt. He was recruiting the X-Men. Trying I should say.



And he was going to kill any mutant who wouldn't join him. It sure looked like it was hurting people.



> They have a history together and it always ends by Magneto doing something drastic.



And your point is?



> Because you post a scan of said arc and I assume you read it.



If you think my scans are misleading or that I am misinterpreting them, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate this with your own scans.



> Yes, he can.



So then what are we arguing about?



> Yes, like 5-7 pages prior to that one. The same fight.



So you answered your own question. What was the point of asking it, then?



> Do you disagree that something along the lines of Asgard or the like isn't coming out of Thor's mouth almost every time he attacks or what not?



Not before he actually reacts with his reflexes.



I found this after only a few more seconds of looking through my folder.



> You probably have. He gets trolled too much for my liking.



He just recently beat Sentry in Siege despite all the hype Sentry was getting.



> Yes Magneto disrupted his energy field after Proteus tried to take over Magneto's body. Not before and not after. Proteus even switched Magneto's blood to lead and he did nothing.



He was able to keep fighting and eventually figured out how to defeat him. Post a scan that says it wouldn't have been possible without the physical contact.



> I meant Pyro can manipulate flames, but cannot summon it. Magneto can manipulate lightning and what not, he just can't summon it.



I am fairly certain he can, as it makes perfect sense within his powerset, but you've come up with excuses to dismiss all the examples I've found. I suppose we could compromise and say that we have no clear-cut examples of him doing so (until I find some, that is, I'm pretty sure they exist).



> I know he can use electricity.



Then why can't he use lightning?



> Not to that effect. He was literally about to destroy the EM spectrum with that amp thing. Joseph had to sacrifice his body to restore the order. Ala Magneto damaged his DNA and got repowered later on to an even bigger state.



Think about what you're saying for a minute. He's already so powerful, more powerful than Storm, who can create lightning. But you're saying that what is needed for him to create lightning is more power to his traditional powerset. That means the ability to create lightning should already be within his power at normal levels, unless you are arguing that he is too weak to do it, which makes no sense at all.



> So you believe he could summon Gamma and cosmic rays? Without a medium.



They are part of the EM spectrum, which he controls. So I don't see why not.



> Completely different.



How so? Both are events that have been shown to happen in the comics.



> Fixed that for you.



I already acknowledged she's not as strong as him. But she's not weak by any means.



> I also never said he had no telepathic defense at all. I said again. If Xavier wants to mind rape Magneto, then Magneto cannot do anything about it bar his helmet.



Or use his other powers to distract or incapacitate Xavier before his mind is overwhelmed.





> Why should Xavier actually believe him? Magneto doesn't exactly have a good past.



So then you admit his words are unreliable.



> Because that is what Xavier is talking about if you bother to read the *entire scan*.
> *snip*
> Xavier:All of this--The time, The place, The false prentience-- *It's always a trap*. I'm so tired of this, Magneto. This stupid endless cycle...
> 
> Notice how he calls him Magneto also...



I've read it the first time, and I'm not seeing your point here. 



> The bullet thing is Magneto at full stamina. The article you're talking about is a flashback when he didn't have his mutant power fully restored yet. Mixing the two is mixing feats.



Multiple people on KMC told me they were certain he was not at full power when he did that.



> what's that have to do with me liking Magneto?



Nothing, but this is an OBD thread, so the rules for which should be upheld.



> I never said he draws on the asteroid for power.... That is one of Magneto's bases. A lot of dangerous technology is on there for him to use against humanity.



You said that the asteroid itself amplifies his powers.



> Read Wolverine's line. "Who knows what he might do with it again" referring to the shit he's done up there on Asteroid M. If it did nothing, why would they care if he got his orbital base back?



Strawman. I never said it did nothing, but the vague terms used to describe the technology mean it could be practically anything at all.


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 13, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> And he was going to kill any mutant who wouldn't join him. It sure looked like it was hurting people.


Actions speak louder than words again. When Magneto came he reversed the iron in their blood so they wouldn't be able to use their mutant ability. There is no showings that Avalon did any damage to people.




> And your point is?


Reason why Xavier doesn't trust Magneto. 



> If you think my scans are misleading or that I am misinterpreting them, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate this with your own scans.


I have been when able. 



> So then what are we arguing about?



You tell me? 



> So you answered your own question. What was the point of asking it, then?



You made it seem like they had a separate fight.



> Not before he actually reacts with his reflexes.
> 
> 
> 
> I found this after only a few more seconds of looking through my folder.


I completely forgot what we were arguing about. I just remember Magneto did a pre-emptive strike against the Avengers. What is your point with all of this honestly?



> He just recently beat Sentry in Siege despite all the hype Sentry was getting.


Sentry wanted to die. If you read Siege and all the drama it brought you defiantly would know this.



> He was able to keep fighting and eventually figured out how to defeat him. Post a scan that says it wouldn't have been possible without the physical contact.


How could I possibly post a scan of that? You have to show proof he would of. 




> I am fairly certain he can, as it makes perfect sense within his powerset, but you've come up with excuses to dismiss all the examples I've found. I suppose we could compromise and say that we have no clear-cut examples of him doing so (until I find some, that is, I'm pretty sure they exist).


Find come concrete proof and come back.




> Then why can't he use lightning?


*sigh* He can use lightning.. He just can't summon it. Just like he can't summon a gamma explosion without a medium.




> Think about what you're saying for a minute. He's already so powerful, more powerful than Storm, who can create lightning. But you're saying that what is needed for him to create lightning is more power to his traditional powerset. That means the ability to create lightning should already be within his power at normal levels, unless you are arguing that he is too weak to do it, which makes no sense at all.


That's her mutant power, not his.




> They are part of the EM spectrum, which he controls. So I don't see why not.


 He controls it, but he can't control something that isn't there. Just like he can't magically make metal out of nothing.



> How so? Both are events that have been shown to happen in the comics.


Look. I'm not saying he is immune or weak to light attacks. I'm just saying they CAN get past his shields. It's canon. He doesn't have a switch to block certain attacks. 



> I already acknowledged she's not as strong as him. But she's not weak by any means.


I never said she was weak. She just isn't strong enough. Big difference.



> Or use his other powers to distract or incapacitate Xavier before his mind is overwhelmed.


Xavier can simply make him not use his mutant power. Xavier vs Magneto boils down to who uses their mutant ability first. This is Magneto without his shield. Magneto with his shield would beat Xavier hands down.


> So then you admit his words are unreliable.



Obviously not if Xavier hits him with a psi blast in the next scan.......



> I've read it the first time, and I'm not seeing your point here.


It's not a matter of Magneto lying, it's more of this happened before and ended with him betraying the X-Men. It would be like Magneto allowing Fabian Cortez on his team again. You don't need to be telepathic to assume he'll betray you *again*.




> Multiple people on KMC told me they were certain he was not at full power when he did that.


Is KMC even official or do you mean the members?




> Nothing, but this is an OBD thread, so the rules for which should be upheld.


You asked why I was downplaying Magneto and I answered. What does that have to do with OBD?



> You said that the asteroid itself amplifies his powers.


I said Asteriod M amps his powers. Meaning his technology on there. Did you/him really think it was just an Asteriod with nothing in it?




> Strawman. I never said it did nothing, but the vague terms used to describe the technology mean it could be practically anything at all.


 It's like asking what's in the bat cave. "Bunch of technology." would be accurate as they've never snooped around in there. What do YOU think is in Asteroid M? Even Magneto said in that scan that there is dangerous stuff that can be used against mutants. The same stuff he was using against earth/humans and more.


----------



## Lucifeller (Aug 14, 2010)

> I said Asteriod M amps his powers. Meaning his technology on there. Did you/him really think it was just an Asteriod with nothing in it?



Dude... it's a piece of rock the size of Manhattan. The mere fact he HAS it is cause to worry since he can colonydrop it - do you have even a vague idea how much DAMAGE Mags can do with Asteroid M to the planet?

Hint: the rock that allegedly killed the dinos was estimated to have been about the size of a truck. Asteroid M is several hundred times that size. Can you say 'planetary extinction'? THAT's why everyone's worried about Mags getting Asteroid M back. It's a hugantic chunk of freaking rock that can kill nearly everything above bacteria on the planet if Mags is so inclined. Tech my ass, all he needs to do to cause a massacre is drop the damn thing...


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 14, 2010)

magneto can't generate electricity what?


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 14, 2010)

Multiple people on KMC told me they were certain he was not at full power when he did that.


magneto is yet to regain full powers since M day


----------



## Kurou (Aug 14, 2010)

Did Magneto win yet?


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 14, 2010)

Lucifeller said:


> Dude... it's a piece of rock the size of Manhattan. The mere fact he HAS it is cause to worry since he can colonydrop it - do you have even a vague idea how much DAMAGE Mags can do with Asteroid M to the planet?
> 
> Hint: the rock that allegedly killed the dinos was estimated to have been about the size of a truck. Asteroid M is several hundred times that size. Can you say 'planetary extinction'? THAT's why everyone's worried about Mags getting Asteroid M back. It's a hugantic chunk of freaking rock that can kill nearly everything above bacteria on the planet if Mags is so inclined. Tech my ass, all he needs to do to cause a massacre is drop the damn thing...


Idk if this is a troll post or what... You can't be serious with this answer.



Banhammer said:


> Multiple people on KMC told me they were certain he was not at full power when he did that.
> 
> 
> magneto is yet to regain full powers since M day


Comic scan please.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 14, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> Comic scan please.



you mean the fact that he can't hold the M-Asteroid afloat for long, the fact that x-predators made him sick, or the fact that the author himself has stated this?


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 15, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> you mean the fact that he can't hold the M-Asteroid afloat for long, the fact that x-predators made him sick, or the fact that the author himself has stated this?



I'm not doubting you, but I would like the official source of it. He can hold A-M, but he'd need to meditate constantly iirc.


----------



## Lucifeller (Aug 15, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> Idk if this is a troll post or what... You can't be serious with this answer.



It's not a troll post. In a couple of occasions Magneto has threatened simply dropping Asteroid M on Earth, reasoning that mutants were better equipped to face the catastrophic damage it would cause, while humans would most likely all perish. It was in his more villainous phases. Some X-Men even lampshaded his threat by saying he was starting to sound like Apocalypse, what with survival of the fittest and all.

Asteroid M is first and foremost a safe haven for Mags and his followers, anyway. Most of the tech on it allows it to, y'know, be HABITABLE IN SPACE. Because it's, after all, a rock in vacuum. All that technocrap is very likely to be for making it habitable, and of what isn't, there were at least a couple firearms, so I'm guessing it has something akin to the Grypios-2 colony laser in Gundam. Nowhere is it ever mentioned that it jacks up Mags's powers, and if it did it'd make no sense, because Mags could hold Asteroid M afloat even from the ground... for extended periods... while fighting, so his attention wasn't even fully on it.

The only times when Mags was CONFIRMED to be amped by something in the comic itself (as opposed to speculation based on vague remarks by others) was when he was hooked up to Celestial tech and when he was hopped up on Kick.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> Actions speak louder than words again. When Magneto came he reversed the iron in their blood so they wouldn't be able to use their mutant ability. There is no showings that Avalon did any damage to people.



Because hurricane - force winds and waves are completely harmless, right?



> Reason why Xavier doesn't trust Magneto.



It's a good reason. If he's proven himself to be untrustworthy, why do you trust him?



> I have been when able.



Yes, but I'm just saying that "go read it again" isn't a good argument.



> You tell me?



Well I've already proven he can manipulate gravity, so now we seem to be discussing 5 main points:

1. Whether Magneto can generate lightning

2. The extent and nature of Magneto's mental defenses

3. Whether Magneto can effect Mjolnir

4. Whether Magneto was at full power during his recent feats.

5. Whether Magneto's shields can block light

However all of these seem to be irrelevant to the main topic of discussion, so I'm not sure why we are even arguing about them in this thread.



> You made it seem like they had a separate fight.



I said no such thing.



> I completely forgot what we were arguing about. I just remember Magneto did a pre-emptive strike against the Avengers. What is your point with all of this honestly?



That Magneto is capable of temporarily wresting control of Mjolnir away from Thor.



> Sentry wanted to die. If you read Siege and all the drama it brought you defiantly would know this.



Sentry did, but the Void didn't. The Void was taking control of Sentry and fighting.



> How could I possibly post a scan of that? You have to show proof he would of.



Proof is the fact that he did. He wasn't in physical contact when he defeated Proteus.



> *sigh* He can use lightning.. He just can't summon it. Just like he can't summon a gamma explosion without a medium.



Then in that amped scan, he was clearly summoning it. So therefore you accept he can do so if his power is boosted. But why wouldn't he be able to do it in base form, if more power is all that's required?



> That's her mutant power, not his.



His mutant power is the ability to control the electromagnetic spectrum. Lightning falls under that.



> He controls it, but he can't control something that isn't there. Just like he can't magically make metal out of nothing.



Metal is matter, EM spectrum is energy. He can obviously generate energy.



> Look. I'm not saying he is immune or weak to light attacks. I'm just saying they CAN get past his shields. It's canon. He doesn't have a switch to block certain attacks.



He has shown the ability to set up his shields to block or deflect light. When they're not set up that way, light can get through. This is not difficult to understand. That scan you posted of Monica going through his shields, if he had had his shields set up to block light, she wouldn't have been able to get through. However, she took him by surprise when his shields weren't set up to block light.



> I never said she was weak. She just isn't strong enough. Big difference.



Still, the fact that his defenses could keep her out while he was concentrating on something else was impressive.

If Professor X seriously tried to fuck up Magneto's mind, could he do it? Yes. But he couldn't do it instantly or effortlessly.



> Xavier can simply make him not use his mutant power. Xavier vs Magneto boils down to who uses their mutant ability first. This is Magneto without his shield. Magneto with his shield would beat Xavier hands down.



So basically what I already said.



> Obviously not if Xavier hits him with a psi blast in the next scan.......



So then what was the point of posting that scan, especially since you already admitted that he does have some mental defenses without his helmet?



> It's not a matter of Magneto lying, it's more of this happened before and ended with him betraying the X-Men. It would be like Magneto allowing Fabian Cortez on his team again. You don't need to be telepathic to assume he'll betray you *again*.



Exactly. Therefore, the claim that he has no mental defenses without his helmet is false. Maybe no mental defenses capable of resisting Xavier, but they still exist.



> Is KMC even official or do you mean the members?



The members. They said that after M-Day (I tried to read House of M but I really just couldn't get into it) he has not been fully repowered. Banhammer supports this, and he reads more X-Men than I do.



> You asked why I was downplaying Magneto and I answered. What does that have to do with OBD?



You see that navigation bar on the top of your screen? It says "outskirts battledome". That's where we are, and where this thread is.



> I said Asteriod M amps his powers. Meaning his technology on there. Did you/him really think it was just an Asteriod with nothing in it?



Of course not, but you seemed to be implying there was some kind of device there that was constantly beaming power to him or powering him up.



> It's like asking what's in the bat cave. "Bunch of technology." would be accurate as they've never snooped around in there.



There have actually been a lot of comics going in - depth on the items in the Batcave.



> What do YOU think is in Asteroid M? Even Magneto said in that scan that there is dangerous stuff that can be used against mutants. The same stuff he was using against earth/humans and more.



I see no evidence that that included any kind of remote power amping device, as you seemed to be implying. The only thing close to that was that magnetic intensifier, and he had to strap that to his head.

To use your analogy, let's say Batman is fighting someone. In the middle of the fight, the Batcave is destroyed somehow. Batman then loses the fight. Even though Batman has a lot of useful technology and devices inside of the Batcave, it wouldn't make sense to say "Batman would have won that fight if the Batcave wasn't destroyed, because it was powering him up".



Lucifeller said:


> Dude... it's a piece of rock the size of Manhattan. The mere fact he HAS it is cause to worry since he can colonydrop it - do you have even a vague idea how much DAMAGE Mags can do with Asteroid M to the planet?
> 
> Hint: the rock that allegedly killed the dinos was estimated to have been about the size of a truck. Asteroid M is several hundred times that size. Can you say 'planetary extinction'? THAT's why everyone's worried about Mags getting Asteroid M back. It's a hugantic chunk of freaking rock that can kill nearly everything above bacteria on the planet if Mags is so inclined. Tech my ass, all he needs to do to cause a massacre is drop the damn thing...



Actually, this in incorrect. The impactor that caused the K/T extinction event was estimated to be around 10 km across. Although that's still probably smaller than Asteroid M.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 15, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> I'm not doubting you, but I would like the official source of it.



And here, I quote the interview



			
				Fraction said:
			
		

> *GN Comics: A couple issues back we got Magneto's account of what he's been up to and how he regained his powers. One disparity I'm wondering about is how he claimed to be reborn and called himself "a man of 20 again", but when they battled the Predator X clones he exhausted himself pretty quickly, even admitting that he felt like an old man.*
> 
> Fraction: Right.
> 
> ...


----------



## Lucifeller (Aug 16, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Actually, this in incorrect. The impactor that caused the K/T extinction event was estimated to be around 10 km across. Although that's still probably smaller than Asteroid M.



I stand corrected then. My bad.


----------



## pikachuwei (Aug 16, 2010)

Lucifeller said:


> I stand corrected then. My bad.



i was gonna insert rude comment, but u stand corrected so alg ;D


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 16, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Because hurricane - force winds and waves are completely harmless, right?


Not sayin it wouldnt hurt but it didnt cause any damage nor was he trying to




> It's a good reason. If he's proven himself to be untrustworthy, why do you trust him?


whats this have to do with mental defense?



> Yes, but I'm just saying that "go read it again" isn't a good argument.


i assume you have the issue so reading it wont be hard. not like there is a om where we can post scans easily





> 1. Whether Magneto can generate lightning


everytime ive seen him do it there was a medium


> 2. The extent and nature of Magneto's mental defenses


like i said to greed anyone but xavier he can resist. 


> 3. Whether Magneto can effect Mjolnir


he can. its canon



> 4. Whether Magneto was at full power during his recent feats.


he seems perfectly fine in legacy. uncanny is on some other shit in 516



> 5. Whether Magneto's shields can block light


it can, but light can also pass



> However all of these seem to be irrelevant to the main topic of discussion, so I'm not sure why we are even arguing about them in this thread.


its what happens when one side doesnt post a strat to defeat magnus




> I said no such thing.


never said you did



> That Magneto is capable of *temporarily * wresting control of Mjolnir away from Thor.


ok?



> Sentry did, but the Void didn't. The Void was taking control of Sentry and fighting.


thats why he died.


Proof is the fact that he did. He wasn't in physical contact when he defeated Proteus.





> Then in that amped scan, he was clearly summoning it. So therefore you accept he can do so if his power is boosted. But why wouldn't he be able to do it in base form, if more power is all that's required?


ill reread it for you again later because i dont have it on me right now




> His mutant power is the ability to *control* the electromagnetic spectrum. Lightning falls under that.


bolded for truth



> Metal is matter, EM spectrum is energy. He can obviously generate energy.


yet ive never seen him do it



> He has shown the ability to set up his shields to block or deflect light. When they're not set up that way, light can get through. This is not difficult to understand. That scan you posted of Monica going through his shields, if he had had his shields set up to block light, she wouldn't have been able to get through. However, she took him by surprise when his shields weren't set up to block light.


proof..



> Still, the fact that his defenses could keep her out while he was concentrating on something else was impressive.


thats normal for him




> If Professor X seriously tried to fuck up Magneto's mind, could he do it? Yes. But he couldn't do it instantly or effortlessly.


says who?



> So basically what I already said.


when?



> So then what was the point of posting that scan, especially since you already admitted that he does have some mental defenses without his helmet?


you wanted a scan of him saying he is powerless against x.




> Exactly. Therefore, the claim that he has no mental defenses without his helmet is false. Maybe *no mental defenses capable of resisting Xavier*, but they still exist.


you are finally catching on


The members. They said that after M-Day (I tried to read House of M but I really just couldn't get into it) he has not been fully repowered. Banhammer supports this, and he reads more X-Men than I do.





> You see that navigation bar on the top of your screen? It says "outskirts battledome". That's where we are, and where this thread is.


what did downplaying magneto have to do with obd?




> Of course not, but you seemed to be implying there was some kind of device there that was constantly beaming power to him or powering him up.


it should be common sense that most of the shit he does up there is due to the techno he mad.



> There have actually been a lot of comics going in - depth on the items in the Batcave.


i mean if an xman or someone from dc whos never been in the bat cave




> I see no evidence that that included any kind of remote power amping device, as you seemed to be implying. The only thing close to that was that magnetic intensifier, and he had to strap that to his head.


You said there is none yet say that the intensifier is one? thats just of his products up there. another is when he augmented his helmet to control minds 



> To use your analogy, let's say Batman is fighting someone. In the middle of the fight, the Batcave is destroyed somehow. Batman then loses the fight. Even though Batman has a lot of useful technology and devices inside of the Batcave, it wouldn't make sense to say "Batman would have won that fight if the Batcave wasn't destroyed, because it was powering him up".


what the hell does that have to do with magneto using asteriod m




Banhammer said:


> And here, I quote the interview



so he just has low stamina?


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 18, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> Not sayin it wouldnt hurt but it didnt cause any damage nor was he trying to



There are only two options here:

1. He's an idiot and didn't think bringing this ship that could disrupt global weather patterns would harm anyone

2. He was willing to harm people

1 is obviously not true.



> whats this have to do with mental defense?



Since you've conceded that he does have mental defenses without his helmet, I guess we can drop this point.



> i assume you have the issue so reading it wont be hard. not like there is a om where we can post scans easily



It's intellectually lazy since you're relying on me to do your work for you. If there is evidence in a comic supporting your argument, then the responsibility is yours to present that evidence in a debate, not just tell the other guy to go read it.



> everytime ive seen him do it there was a medium



What do you mean, a medium?



> like i said to greed anyone but xavier he can resist.



You are aware that there are telepaths in the MU who are on Xavier's level or higher, right?



> he can. its canon



I know that. I suppose I should have phrased that as "the extent to which he can affect it".



> he seems perfectly fine in legacy. uncanny is on some other shit in 516



Banhammer provided a quote suggesting otherwise.



> it can, but light can also pass



Yes, if he allows it to.



> its what happens when one side doesnt post a strat to defeat magnus



So basically, we're agreed he wins this, we're just arguing over the minutiae of how he does so. This is so pointless.



> ok?



Agreed.



> thats why he died.



It was an anticlimactic battle though, if you ask me.



> ill reread it for you again later because i dont have it on me right now



Ok. I'm aware of the amp you're talking about, BTW, but I don't know why it would give him a new ability he's never had before.



> bolded for truth



Uh-huh. You do realize that generating lightning is actually very simple, right? All you need to do is induce an electrostatic differential between two points. You could do it yourself with common household items.



Whereas Magneto can manipulate electricity and magnetism to a level far beyond what even our most advanced technology in real life can accomplish.



> yet ive never seen him do it



Never seen him generate energy?



Here he powers a ship, even saying that he is the power.

Then there's this:



This one also has lightning generation (I can't wait for whatever excuse you'll use to ignore it).



> proof..



What more proof do you want? I've showed multiple scans of him consciously blocking light. That proves he can do it if he wishes to.



> thats normal for him



Which means he is impressive.



> says who?



Says comic events? Even in the example you specifically named, Uncanny #304, they struggled for a while before Xavier was able to take control of Magneto's powers, and he was exhausted at the end.



> when?



I'm saying Magneto is a legitimate threat to Xavier. You said the same thing.



> you wanted a scan of him saying he is powerless against x.



I don't recall asking for that specifically.



> you are finally catching on



When I say "resisting", I mean putting up a strong defense. Holding him off for a while is something he can definitely do.



> what did downplaying magneto have to do with obd?



Just saying that high - end feats are normally accepted here, unless they are completely contradictory or illogical (example: Hulk destroying a dimension with a thunderclap).



> it should be common sense that most of the shit he does up there is due to the techno he mad.



Show me evidence that there is some kind of remote power enhancer on Asteroid M which was constantly powering him up.



> You said there is none yet say that the intensifier is one? thats just of his products up there. another is when he augmented his helmet to control minds



You missed the key word, remote. Aka operating from long distances. The magnetic intensifier was a device he had to strap to his head, so we could obviously tell when he wasn't using it. You're implying that the mere existence of Asteroid M gives him more power wherever he is, I would like some evidence of a device that does that.



> what the hell does that have to do with magneto using asteriod m



You're implying that it serves as an amp to his power. In other words, if he does something while Asteroid M exists, it means he's being amped. There is no evidence of this.



> so he just has low stamina?



That's not what it says.


----------



## Lina Inverse (Aug 18, 2010)

Waitaminute

Magneto's powers work on Thor's hammer? 

To what extent?


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 18, 2010)

They work on Uru. It's not like he can all on the Storm on the earthquakes with it.


----------



## Lina Inverse (Aug 18, 2010)

I was on the impression before that uru was not affected by the electromagnetic spectrum due to it being mystical in nature. Guess I was wrong then


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 18, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> There are only two options here:
> 
> 1. He's an idiot and didn't think bringing this ship that could disrupt global weather patterns would harm anyone
> 
> ...



He's an idiot and didn't think that? Next issue he lets out a EM pulse that shuts off the whole world's electricity. Don't mistake him for Charles Xavier. 



> It's intellectually lazy since you're relying on me to do your work for you. If there is evidence in a comic supporting your argument, then the responsibility is yours to present that evidence in a debate, not just tell the other guy to go read it.


 Because a lot of time you post scans where the previous page or next page debunks your statements. 




> What do you mean, a medium?


Like Storm creates lightning and he then manipulates it. He builds something to create the lightning and he controls it. Pyro uses a lighter as a medium to create the fire he needs to control. 




> You are aware that there are telepaths in the MU who are on Xavier's level or higher, right?


 What is your point? Who cares about a telepath Magneto has NEVER fought. 



> Banhammer provided a quote suggesting otherwise.


"*He has the body of an old man but his power are restored*" If you want a Magneto with half of his power Dark Seduction is the one I believe where he isn't fully powered. This Magneto seems to be able to do anything he use to, just doesn't have the stamina of a 20 yr old.



> Yes, if he allows it to.


ugh. I guess I can say for everyone who blocks a hit... "They can only get hit by it if they allow themselves to.




> So basically, we're agreed he wins this, we're just arguing over the minutiae of how he does so. This is so pointless.


You're the one who went microscopic. 




> It was an anticlimactic battle though, if you ask me.


It was stupid if you ask me... Hype up Seige only to say Sentry will be back :/



> Ok. I'm aware of the amp you're talking about, BTW, but I don't know why it would give him a new ability he's never had before.


 Because he had so much power that it disrupted the EM field around him and storms were brewing. Not sure if he knew it would happen or not, but it's not like he made a storm around the world. 



> Uh-huh. You do realize that generating lightning is actually very simple, right? All you need to do is induce an electrostatic differential between two points. You could do it yourself with common household items.
> 
> 
> 
> Whereas Magneto can manipulate electricity and magnetism to a level far beyond what even our most advanced technology in real life can accomplish.


I didn't know theory crafting was canon in OBD?




> Never seen him generate energy?
> 
> 
> 
> Here he powers a ship, even saying that he is the power.


 We are talking about lightning..... 




> Then there's this:
> 
> 
> 
> This one also has lightning generation (I can't wait for whatever excuse you'll use to ignore it).


Unless I'm getting trolled it says that it is an energy pulse...



> What more proof do you want? I've showed multiple scans of him consciously blocking light. That proves he can do it if he wishes to.


 Multiple? I've only seen one. Beside I showed you that light CAN get past his shields. What more do you want?




> Which means he is impressive.


And the point of that was?



> Says comic events? Even in the example you specifically named, Uncanny #304, they struggled for a while before Xavier was able to take control of Magneto's powers, and he was exhausted at the end.


He wasn't struggling. He was talking to Erik.. c'mon you would of had a better shot if you said they were struggling in X-Men vol 2 #25.



> I'm saying Magneto is a legitimate threat to Xavier. You said the same thing.


Ok..





> I don't recall asking for that specifically.






> When I say "resisting", I mean putting up a strong defense. Holding him off for a while is something he can definitely do.


Post some newer scans of Magneto resisting Xavier for the slightest bit that's not a psi-bolt or Xavier showing Magneto that he is wrong. For the most part Magneto drops like a fly if he doesn't have his helmet on and Xavier means business. Shit, he even gave up once he saw Xavier in Eve of Destruction because he KNEW he was no match for Xavier's telepathic abilities. You cannot refute that except for posting a 40 year old scan of a small psi-bolt feat. 


Just saying that high - end feats are normally accepted here, unless they are completely contradictory or illogical (example: Hulk destroying a dimension with a thunderclap).





> Show me evidence that there is some kind of remote power enhancer on Asteroid M which was constantly powering him up.


I never said constantly powering him up and I showed you some scans already. I don't know EVERY instance where he has some tech from Asteroid M, but is defiantly is canon he builds things up there. 


Here is another one. I condensed it into one picture so it can be read easier. 


> You missed the key word, remote. Aka operating from long distances. The magnetic intensifier was a device he had to strap to his head, so we could obviously tell when he wasn't using it. You're implying that the mere existence of Asteroid M gives him more power wherever he is, I would like some evidence of a device that does that.


Show me when I said that the existence of Asteroid M would gives him more power. It's like his own bat cave.




> You're implying that it serves as an amp to his power. In other words, if he does something while Asteroid M exists, it means he's being amped. There is no evidence of this.


 Why wouldn't he use his technology up there? 



That's not what it says.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 19, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> He's an idiot and didn't think that? Next issue he lets out a EM pulse that shuts off the whole world's electricity. Don't mistake him for Charles Xavier.



The point is that he's not an idiot. He would know that what he was doing was potentially a threat to mutants living on earth. Meaning he is willing to kill mutants if he has to, acceptable losses.



> Because a lot of time you post scans where the previous page or next page debunks your statements.



If that's what you think, then prove it. Post those previous or next pages that you think debunk my claims.



> Like Storm creates lightning and he then manipulates it. He builds something to create the lightning and he controls it. Pyro uses a lighter as a medium to create the fire he needs to control.



I posted a scan where he didn't need to do that.



> What is your point? Who cares about a telepath Magneto has NEVER fought.



You said he could resist anyone other than Xavier.



> "*He has the body of an old man but his power are restored*" If you want a Magneto with half of his power Dark Seduction is the one I believe where he isn't fully powered. This Magneto seems to be able to do anything he use to, just doesn't have the stamina of a 20 yr old.



Way to selectively quote the article.



> He's not the unstoppable, ultimate power that he once was. He might have his powers back and might feel like he's young and in his prime, but he absolutely is not.



And you accuse me of taking evidence out of context.



> ugh. I guess I can say for everyone who blocks a hit... "They can only get hit by it if they allow themselves to.



No, the point is that he can set up his shield to block light or not. He normally doesn't, because it's easier if he can, you know, actually see things outside of his shield. It's perfectly possible for someone using a light-based attack to hit him or take him by surprise when his shield is set this way. However, he can also set the shield to block light. It requires a conscious decision.

To use an analogy, let's say you have the option of using a firewall on your computer when you're online. This firewall will protect you from hackers and viruses, however it has a downside to using it (say, your connection speed is much slower or you can't access certain websites). So you normally browse without the firewall on. However, if you want, you can activate it. If you get infected by a virus without the firewall on, that doesn't mean that the firewall never existed.



> You're the one who went microscopic.



I'm only responding to the claims and arguments you've made.



> It was stupid if you ask me... Hype up Seige only to say Sentry will be back



I agree, I even wrote a rant about it in the convo a while ago. However, Thor did come off as being impressive in the story.



> Because he had so much power that it disrupted the EM field around him and storms were brewing. Not sure if he knew it would happen or not, but it's not like he made a storm around the world.



I never said he did. The ability to create a storm across the whole world is not the capability that is being debated here, it's the ability for him to create lightning at all. As you just acknowledged, Magneto can do it if he has enough power. So do you really think his normal levels of power being too weak are the only thing that stop him from creating lightning? Because that would make no sense.



> I didn't know theory crafting was canon in OBD?



Real - life science is "canon" in the OBD, unless a fictional work specifically shows that it should not apply. Magneto's powers, while fictional, are based on real - life scientific concepts, such as electromagnetism.



> We are talking about lightning.....



In your last post, you responded to my claim that "he can obviously generate energy" by saying "yet I've never seen him do it". Obviously I assumed you meant generating energy, not specifically lightning, because that's what you responded to.



> Unless I'm getting trolled it says that it is an energy pulse...



Which had already happened by the point in that scan, hence the devastation around him. Yet you can see lightning around him as a residual effect. It's even directly said "You threw lightning from your eyes".



> Multiple? I've only seen one.



Dazzler scan and the infiltration of Attilan:

this link



[QUOTE]Beside I showed you that light CAN get past his shields. What more do you want?[/QUOTE]

:facepalm

Which is perfectly explained by what I've been trying to say this entire time. He didn't have his shields set up to block light at that time, and he was taken by surprise. That in no way invalidates the fact that he can set them up to block light if he wishes to.

[QUOTE]And the point of that was?[/QUOTE]

The original point was that he can win this fight, but since you seem to agree with that already....

[QUOTE]He wasn't struggling. He was talking to Erik.. c'mon you would of had a better shot if you said they were struggling in X-Men vol 2 #25.[/QUOTE]

So both of their faces contorted in effort with energy flashing between them now means they aren't struggling?



I don't know about you, but I don't make a face like that when I'm just talking. And this goes on for like 4 more pages.

[QUOTE]Post some newer scans of Magneto resisting Xavier for the slightest bit that's not a psi-bolt or Xavier showing Magneto that he is wrong. For the most part Magneto drops like a fly if he doesn't have his helmet on and Xavier means business. Shit, he even gave up once he saw Xavier in Eve of Destruction because he KNEW he was no match for Xavier's telepathic abilities. You cannot refute that except for posting a 40 year old scan of a small psi-bolt feat.[/QUOTE]

Giving up makes sense if you know you can't win, even if you can resist. And where do you define the cutoff for "newer"?

[QUOTE]I never said constantly powering him up and I showed you some scans already. I don't know EVERY instance where he has some tech from Asteroid M, but is defiantly is canon he builds things up there. [/QUOTE]

Uh-huh. And how does this support your original point, that the mere existence of Asteroid M qualifies as a power amp?

[QUOTE]*snip*
Here is another one. I condensed it into one picture so it can be read easier. [/QUOTE]

Nice scan. Too bad I asked for an actual amp to his powers, rather than something that gives him a completely different power (mind control).

[QUOTE]Show me when I said that the existence of Asteroid M would gives him more power. It's like his own bat cave.[/QUOTE]

Link removed

You're saying the asteroid itself qualifies an an amp and he wouldn't be able to do the things Lucifeller is saying without it.

[QUOTE]Why wouldn't he use his technology up there? [/QUOTE]

That's not what I'm saying. You're implying that whenever we see him using his powers there, he's using some kind of amp, even if it is not stated or shown.


----------



## Lucifeller (Aug 19, 2010)

> If he has Asteroid M in this situation then he goes and finds equipment to power him up. How isn't that an amp?



How about because Magneto is PROUD of his power as a mutant and has shown repeatedly that said pride prevents him from actually USING external help the majority of the time? There's a reason why the vaguely defined, unspecified 'equipment' on Asteroid M is basically brought up ONCE and then forgotten about - it's because Mags is about as likely to stoop as low as to augment his power (thus admitting he's not all that superior after all) as Doom is to ask Richards for help. Which is to say, it may happen once in a blue moon.

On the other hand, he's not at all above colonydropping Asteroid M on something that sufficiently annoys him. It'd let him flaunt his powers too.


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 19, 2010)

Lucifeller said:


> How about because Magneto is PROUD of his power as a mutant and has shown repeatedly that said pride prevents him from actually USING external help the majority of the time? There's a reason why the vaguely defined, unspecified 'equipment' on Asteroid M is basically brought up ONCE and then forgotten about - it's because Mags is about as likely to stoop as low as to augment his power (thus admitting he's not all that superior after all) as Doom is to ask Richards for help. Which is to say, it may happen once in a blue moon.
> 
> On the other hand, he's not at all above colonydropping Asteroid M on something that sufficiently annoys him. It'd let him flaunt his powers too.


I'm sorry, but I can't take you serious. Sorry. I've already posted scans of him augmenting his powers. Magneto War his powers were augmented. Stop with the baseless claims and post scans of him saying what you're preaching. 


Ya know what? I'll help you out. Acts of Vengeance Magneto vs Skull; Magneto thinks lowly of Doom & Skull for resorting to robots to augment their superiority.


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 19, 2010)

Lucifeller said:


> snip



Then post the name of the Italian issue or the name of said arc. Story should still be the same.  

Eh you're not missing much with MvC2 online unless you're a scrub yourself. Too much bitching.

I just helped you out with the Doom/Skull part. I have no idea where you're getting the "he's too proud to use amps"


----------



## Lucifeller (Aug 20, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> Then post the name of the Italian issue or the name of said arc. Story should still be the same.
> 
> Eh you're not missing much with MvC2 online unless you're a scrub yourself. Too much bitching.
> 
> I just helped you out with the Doom/Skull part. I have no idea where you're getting the "he's too proud to use amps"



The most I can give you is the NUMBER of the Italian issue, if I can track them down in my mountain of comics, manga and assorted crap. Here in Italy, unfortunately, they don't really believe in slapping titles on the covers and often take massive liberties bowdlerizing the original titles (seriously, how do you translate something as simple as 'Here comes tomorrow' to 'L'alba di un nuovo domani' (literally 'A new tomorrow's dawn'?).

Fucking translators love making the Italian titles as corny as possible, even if they are very faithful to the dialogue itself...


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 20, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> Ugh you're reading into things too much and what is the point of this? It didn't hurt anyone.



You know this how? There was no statement that no one was hurt and they could hardly check all the damage over the entire world.



> I have been. To name two the Storm and Dazzler one.



The first one was just you shifting the goalposts and demand me to show him making lightning from nothing (which I eventually did find an example of). The second one didn't prove anything as it did not undermine my point that he could block light.



> Obviously people that he has fought before. How would I know if he could resist xx character he's never fought before? Also, X is the strongest telepathic person on the planet so It's not like finding someone stronger than him is common.



He fought Galactus in Secret Wars.

Also, just to note, I have seen people argue that Dr. Strange is a stronger telepath than Xavier, and Xavier is just the strongest mutant telepath on earth, while Strange is the strongest period. Not sure if I believe that, but just throwing it out there.



> Prime refers to his stamina.



It specifically states that he's not the power he once was. Not to mention he was redirecting the bullet for quite a long time.



> I'm waiting for the scan of him saying he sets his shields to block different things.



I've directly shown it. He blocks Dazzler's attacks and mentions how it's easy for him, then I showed him being invisible in Attilan. He's obviously not invisible all of the time, so therefore it's a conscious power he can activate. This is so simple and obvious I can't understand why you're denying it.



> Except Magneto isn't that weak. A shield to him should be effortless.



That has nothing to do with what I'm saying. Putting up a shield is effortless, and so is setting it to block light. But he normally doesn't do that, because that would mean he couldn't see outside of the shield. However, he can do it if he wishes to, and if the shield is not set up to block light, he can be taken by surprise by light-based attacks. I've explained this several dozen times already, but you keep failing to grasp this incredibly simple concept. Exactly what are you having trouble with here?



> Or maybe that storm was a side effect? I don't know. Creating a storm has never been in his power set.



If it's a side effect of him using his powers, it's still counts as him generating lightning. Also the fact that Storm couldn't control it implies that Magneto was controlling it himself.



> Then what's the point of using feats?



To show what a character is capable of?

If you only are given the information that "this guy can manipulate lightning" that's not saying much, as you don't know how, or to what extent, or many other factors. Feats give you this.



> You drift away from the subject too much. Why are we talking about energy now?



Because I said "He can obviously generate energy." You responded to that by saying "yet I've never seen him do it." So I provided a scan of him doing it. Okay?



> I guess it's also canon he's a monster...? The description says energy pulse...



Yes, the pulse had already happened. The lightning was part of it, and it existed as a residue.

Also:



			
				Dictionary.com said:
			
		

> mon·ster
> /ˈmɒnstər/ Show Spelled[mon-ster] Show IPA
> –noun
> 1.
> ...



I don't see why definitions 4 and 7 wouldn't apply to him. In fact, mutants in general have been called monsters a lot by characters in Marvel.



> Give it up or post a scan of him saying he sets his shields to physical or energy based.



This is the same strawman you used before, and I already explained why that wasn't my claim! You're just repeating yourself now.

Ban Mido VS Demon Eyes Kyo



			
				Me said:
			
		

> Strawman. I never said that. I said he can alter his forcefield to stop certain things, like photons. I already showed you a scan of him blocking light, which proves he can do it. You're just trying to nitpick and dance around the central point, since your chief argument here has been refuted.



I don't know how I can explain this to you more simply:

He doesn't normally have his shield set up to block light, however he can if he wants to. This is proven by the fact that he has shown that ability.

Let's look at the dialogue in the second scan:



> His power prevents the ordinarily energy - acute senses of Black Bolt, lord of the Inhumans, from noting his presence.
> 
> ....All is as the white pilgrim would have it.



Meaning he is making himself invisible, aka *blocking light* by his own will. He is not normally invisible, so this is obviously something he can *decide to do if he wishes to.*

You're the one who needs to concede this point because it is so ridiculously obvious that you're pretty much just making a fool of yourself by denying it now.



> I don't know about you, but I don't have the ability to control the EM spectrum or read minds. They're just talking.



Is it normal for glowing flashes of energy to surround people when they're just talking?

Besides, on the next page after that, it says that he's already trying to control Magneto's powers, but there's a whole extra page of "just talking" before he manages to succeed. Meaning Mags was resisting.

And if we go by your logic, that Xavier can instantly defeat Magneto if he wants to, why would Magneto bother talking to him if he knows this, instead of just using his powers to disable him before he puts the mind whammy on him?



> He was dominating prior to seeing Xavier.



Huh? How does this answer my question?



> Like I said. I never said the mere existence of A M powers him. He uses technology from it.



That is what you implied, though.



> Magneto is a latent telepath. He augmented that power with tech from Asteroid M. Simple. Did you also ignore the fact he TELEPORTED the X-Men and Cap A? The X-Men were on the run, this certainly would of helped them a lot...



Too bad we were specifically talking about his magnetic powers. Hence this whole argument is a red herring.



> If he has Asteroid M in this situation then he goes and finds equipment to power him up. How isn't that an amp?



You would have to prove he was using equipment to enhance his powers in any given situation. Seeing as, in every scan you posted where he was doing so, it was specifically noted, that shouldn't be too difficult. You can't just say he's using amps if it is not evident he is doing so at the time.



> How about it's time for you to show me how I'm wrong since I've posted a couple of scans to prove what I'm saying.



No, you've posted scans proving he has various undefined technology on Asteroid M, and that some of it can be used to enhance his powers, but that is always specifically noted, you can't apply it as a generalization. And even if you were trying to say that he always has this stuff working, that would mean it would be classified under standard equipment, meaning he would get in in an OBD fight like this, too. So either way you lose.


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 20, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> You know this how? There was no statement that no one was hurt and they could hardly check all the damage over the entire world.


Because it's speculation to think otherwise, so please tell me. How many people did it hurt? 


The first one was just you shifting the goalposts and demand me to show him making lightning from nothing (which I eventually did find an example of). The second one didn't prove anything as it did not undermine my point that he could block light.





> He fought Galactus in Secret Wars.


Post a scan of Galactus even attempting to mind rape Magneto. Go ahead. I'll wait. 


> It specifically states that he's not the power he once was. Not to mention he was redirecting the bullet for quite a long time.



Like I said he seems perfectly fine in Legacy and looks to be young in Avengers.



> I've directly shown it. He blocks Dazzler's attacks and mentions how it's easy for him, then I showed him being invisible in Attilan. He's obviously not invisible all of the time, so therefore it's a conscious power he can activate. This is so simple and obvious I can't understand why you're denying it.


This is really getting no where. You have the "Since he blocked it once he cannot get hit with it ever again"




> That has nothing to do with what I'm saying. Putting up a shield is effortless, and so is setting it to block light. But he normally doesn't do that, because that would mean he couldn't see outside of the shield. However, he can do it if he wishes to, and if the shield is not set up to block light, he can be taken by surprise by light-based attacks. I've explained this several dozen times already, but you keep failing to grasp this incredibly simple concept. Exactly what are you having trouble with here?


Proof he doesn't normally set his shield to block light.  Proof he can't see outside of his shield.



> If it's a side effect of him using his powers, it's still counts as him generating lightning. Also the fact that Storm couldn't control it implies that Magneto was controlling it himself.


Or that it was too strong for her? 



> To show what a character is capable of?
> 
> 
> 
> If you only are given the information that "this guy can manipulate lightning" that's not saying much, as you don't know how, or to what extent, or many other factors. Feats give you this.



I'm saying whats the point of feats if theory crafting is made canon



> Because I said "He can obviously generate energy." You responded to that by saying "yet I've never seen him do it." So I provided a scan of him doing it. Okay?


I guess, but I was talking about lightning.




> Yes, the pulse had already happened. The lightning was part of it, and it existed as a residue.
> 
> Also:
> 
> ...


~inserts a prof X quote saying mutants are just like humans. #4 is false, because this is before "Magneto" and he was trying to protect his kid.




> This is the same strawman you used before, and I already explained why that wasn't my claim! You're just repeating yourself now.
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...


You're just making stuff up..

Let's look at the dialogue in the second scan:



> Meaning he is making himself invisible, aka *blocking light* by his own will. He is not normally invisible, so this is obviously something he can *decide to do if he wishes to.*
> 
> You're the one who needs to concede this point because it is so ridiculously obvious that you're pretty much just making a fool of yourself by denying it now.


I never said he can't block light. I said he's not IMMUNE to it, like you think he is.



> Is it normal for glowing flashes of energy to surround people when they're just talking?
> 
> Besides, on the next page after that, it says that he's already trying to control Magneto's powers, but there's a whole extra page of "just talking" before he manages to succeed. Meaning Mags was resisting.


Wrong. He says he will have to. Not that he was already trying. 




> And if we go by your logic, that Xavier can instantly defeat Magneto if he wants to, why would Magneto bother talking to him if he knows this, instead of just using his powers to disable him before he puts the mind whammy on him?


In Eve of Destruction? Possibly because Xavier already did it? C'mon would he let Wolverine gut him like that?




> Huh? How does this answer my question?


Magneto was winning the fight prior to seeing Xavier, It's not like it was a losing battle. My bad I didn't read your last part. The cut off would be after Eve of Destruction.




> That is what you implied, though.


No, it wasn't.




> Too bad we were specifically talking about his magnetic powers. Hence this whole argument is a red herring.


his telepathic ability is magnetic. Plus if you read the scan  

"He just whisked them away on waves of pure magnetic force. "

"You never had mental powers like this before! You must have found some-thing on that asteriod base of yours"




> You would have to prove he was using equipment to enhance his powers in any given situation. Seeing as, in every scan you posted where he was doing so, it was specifically noted, that shouldn't be too difficult. You can't just say he's using amps if it is not evident he is doing so at the time.


 Pretty sure the volcano scan I've seen is also due to Asteroid M also. 




> No, you've posted scans proving he has various undefined technology on Asteroid M, and that some of it can be used to enhance his powers, but that is always specifically noted, you can't apply it as a generalization. And even if you were trying to say that he always has this stuff working, that would mean it would be classified under standard equipment, meaning he would get in in an OBD fight like this, too. So either way you lose.


Okay, standardize equipment for 60s/70s Magneto


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 21, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> Because it's speculation to think otherwise, so please tell me. How many people did it hurt?





			
				Uncanny X-Men #304 Narration said:
			
		

> Its effects, however, can be felt to the very farthest reaches of the globe. The havoc that is caused by the leviathan that is Avalon's sudden presence - its violation of the earth's electromagnetic field, will mar the landscape... will ravage the citizenry of the planet for weeks to come... Savage whipping winds shriek across the eastern seaboard... tides lash at the coastline with the fury of a rampaging hurricane



I don't know about you, but I would call that more than just speculation. It's directly stated in the comic. You're just denying obvious facts now.



> Post a scan of Galactus even attempting to mind rape Magneto. Go ahead. I'll wait.



I never said he did. You were just talking as if he had never fought anyone with stronger abilities than Xavier.



> Like I said he seems perfectly fine in Legacy and looks to be young in Avengers.



Key words are "seems" and "looks". It's a canon statement that he's not the man he used to be.



> This is really getting no where. You have the "Since he blocked it once he cannot get hit with it ever again"





No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Try actually reading my words.



			
				Me said:
			
		

> However, he can do it if he wishes to, and if the shield is not set up to block light, *he can be taken by surprise by light-based attacks.*



Get it? In the scan you posted, Monica took him by surprise when his shields weren't set up to block light. I'm not denying that that can happen, as it clearly did happen. I'm just saying that if he wishes to, he can set up his shields to block light.



> Proof he doesn't normally set his shield to block light.



The fact that light normally reaches him? The fact that he's not normally invisible? I've covered all of these points so many times, you are just being willfully ignorant now, that's the only explanation.



> Proof he can't see outside of his shield.



It's called logic. If his shield is blocking light, then no light is reaching his eyes, meaning he can't see. Obviously he has other senses he can use, but I would think he would prefer to use his sight if it's an option.



> Or that it was too strong for her?



Storm is capable of manipulating weather on a global scale. If a local storm, created as a side - effect of the powers of an amped Magneto is beyond her control, then why wouldn't creating a single lightning bolt be within his capabilities at normal levels?



> I'm saying whats the point of feats if theory crafting is made canon



I don't know what you're talking about. If someone's power is described as "the ability to control the entire EM spectrum", and we have instances of that person taking control of lightning bolts, and instances of that person with an amp that did not give him any new powers creating a lightning storm beyond the capability of a powerful weather manipulator to control, and instances of that person using an electric shock to stun someone, and instances of what clearly looks like lightning firing off from his body along with someone saying "you threw lightning from your eyes", I'd say that's more than enough evidence to say he can generate lightning.

If I was making the argument purely on the grounds that it should be scientifically possible according to the definition of his powerset, that wouldn't be sufficient evidence, but when you combine that with all of the other evidence I've listed, it provides a compelling case.



> I guess, but I was talking about lightning.



This line of argument started when I said his power to control the EM spectrum should allow him to create lightning. You said no, because it just said control, and not create, and gave the example that he can't create metal from nothing. However, I rebutted that metal was matter and not energy, and he can generate energy. So the point is that your "he can't create metal" argument is a red herring and not applicable.



> ~inserts a prof X quote saying mutants are just like humans.



Exactly, but not all people believe that. In fact, that's the entire point of the X-Men series, that people are prejudiced against mutants. The girl in the scan I posted said he was a monster, and she is an inhabitant of Marvel earth. Unless you are going to claim that no one on Marvel earth would ever call a mutant a monster (and that would be denying the whole original idea of the X-Men franchise), this objection is pretty weak.



> #4 is false, because this is before "Magneto" and he was trying to protect his kid.



Correct, but he still caused damage and death.



> I never said he can't block light. I said he's not IMMUNE to it, like you think he is.



When did I ever say that? I've been repeatedly stating that if his shields aren't set up to block light, he can be taken by surprise by light - based attacks before he can try to block them. I even said that if his shields are set up that way, he's not completely immune to light, as powerful enough light attacks (the example I gave was a Herald level laser blast) could breach his shields.



> Wrong. He says he will have to. Not that he was already trying.



Wait, let me get this straight: You're saying he realizes he'll have to do it, but he doesn't actually try until later, even though Magneto is attacking him and his students? You're making Xavier out to be an idiot, and he's not.

Also, you didn't answer my question: Is it normal for there to be glowing flashes of energy radiating off of people when they're just talking?



> In Eve of Destruction? Possibly because Xavier already did it? C'mon would he let Wolverine gut him like that?



No, I was still talking about Uncanny #304. Why would you think I would suddenly start referring to a completely different incident?



> No, it wasn't.



Then what was your point? If you concede that the mere existence of Asteroid M doesn't act as a constant amp, then your objection to Lucifeller was completely irrelevant.



> his telepathic ability is magnetic.



Proof of this please?



> Plus if you read the scan
> 
> "He just whisked them away on waves of pure magnetic force. "
> 
> "You never had mental powers like this before! You must have found some-thing on that asteriod base of yours"



Teleportation (unless you count wormholes, and that's not what he used there) is not part of his normal powerset. Also, the fact that it was pointed out means it's easy to tell when he's not using it.



> Pretty sure the volcano scan I've seen is also due to Asteroid M also.



I didn't post any "volcano scan". If you're talking about this: 

original costume

He states in the first panel it's his personal power. Of course, he could be lying, but it's irrelevant anyway as I didn't even use that scan in this argument.



> Okay, standardize equipment for 60s/70s Magneto



Way to ignore the majority of my reply. Every scan you've posted where he was using technology to amp himself had it specifically noted. So you can't just assume it's the case if it's not mentioned.


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 25, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> I don't know about you, but I would call that more than just speculation. It's directly stated in the comic. You're just denying obvious facts now.


What is your point exactly? That Avalon hurt people fodder that was never mention? 





> I never said he did. You were just talking as if he had never fought anyone with stronger abilities than Xavier.


Why do you keep on drifting off topic? Why do we talk about one thing and you bring up something completely irrelevant? Let's stick to telepaths okay? Who cares if he fought someone who can destroy planets. We're talking about telepathic opponents. 




> Key words are "seems" and "looks". It's a canon statement that he's not the man he used to be.


Yet there's nothing wrong with his showings in other issues.




> No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Try actually reading my words.
> 
> 
> 
> Get it? In the scan you posted, Monica took him by surprise when his shields weren't set up to block light. I'm not denying that that can happen, as it clearly did happen. I'm just saying that if he wishes to, he can set up his shields to block light.



99% of the shit he gets hit with is a surprise attack. Welcome to the world of Marvel? You're giving out misleading information.



> The fact that light normally reaches him? The fact that he's not normally invisible? I've covered all of these points so many times, you are just being willfully ignorant now, that's the only explanation.


 The fuck? When does light normally reach him inside his shields? 



> It's called logic. If his shield is blocking light, then no light is reaching his eyes, meaning he can't see. Obviously he has other senses he can use, but I would think he would prefer to use his sight if it's an option.


Marvel logic =/= human. People like Magneto see the world differently than us.



> Storm is capable of manipulating weather on a global scale. If a local storm, created as a side - effect of the powers of an amped Magneto is beyond her control, then why wouldn't creating a single lightning bolt be within his capabilities at normal levels?



1) The artic is the medium for his "storm"
2) He's not normally amped to the point where he controls the world like he did. 
3) What local storm are you talking about?





> I don't know what you're talking about. If someone's power is described as "the ability to control the entire EM spectrum", and we have instances of that person *taking control* of lightning bolts, and instances of that person with an amp that did not give him any new powers creating a storm *in the artic *beyond the capability of a powerful weather manipulator to control, and instances of that person using an electric shock to stun someone, and instances of what clearly looks like lightning firing off from his body along with someone *clueless* saying "you threw lightning from your eyes", I'd say that's more than enough evidence to say he can generate lightning.


 FTFY



> If I was making the argument purely on the grounds that it should be scientifically possible according to the definition of his powerset, that wouldn't be sufficient evidence, but when you combine that with all of the other evidence I've listed, it provides a compelling case.


Your grounds are:
We've seen lightning in his eyes
We've seen him shock Beast

You don't have hard proof. If I said Magneto could manipulate metal. I can show you hard evidence. If I said Magneto could manipulate iron in the blood in different ways. I can show you hard evidence. If I said Magneto can manipulate lightning. I can show you hard evidence. 


My mind is a bit iffy on Siege, but the heroes get a power up, yet the artist who did the art didn't draw it out too good. Therefor it didn't look like they received anything, yet we know they did. Sometimes the art doesn't match the story as there are two different people doing each.




> This line of argument started when I said his power to control the EM spectrum should allow him to create lightning. You said no, because it just said control, and not create, and gave the example that he can't create metal from nothing. However, I rebutted that metal was matter and not energy, and he can generate energy. So the point is that your "he can't create metal" argument is a red herring and not applicable.


You're just typing to type for this one..




> Exactly, but not all people believe that. In fact, that's the entire point of the X-Men series, that people are prejudiced against mutants. The girl in the scan I posted said he was a monster, and she is an inhabitant of Marvel earth. Unless you are going to claim that no one on Marvel earth would ever call a mutant a monster (and that would be denying the whole original idea of the X-Men franchise), this objection is pretty weak.


What.Exactly.Is.Your.Point?




> Correct, but he still caused damage and death.


 And? Since when did Death = monster?




> When did I ever say that? I've been repeatedly stating that if his shields aren't set up to block light, he can be taken by surprise by light - based attacks before he can try to block them. I even said that if his shields are set up that way, he's not completely immune to light, as powerful enough light attacks (the example I gave was a Herald level laser blast) could breach his shields.


Let's just toss this since you're argument is purely speculation to help your cause.




> Wait, let me get this straight: You're saying he realizes he'll have to do it, but he doesn't actually try until later, even though Magneto is attacking him and his students? You're making Xavier out to be an idiot, and he's not.


Orrrrrrrrr he's hoping Magneto would come to his senses. This is just like a Naruto vs Sasuke thing. Naruto(Xavier) is hoping Sasuke(Magneto) comes to his senses and stop that bullshit, but they don't. The next issue Xavier finally sees he won't change and rapes his mind.



> Also, you didn't answer my question: Is it normal for there to be glowing flashes of energy radiating off of people when they're just talking?


 Remember. This is a comic. It's normally for Magneto to have red/white eyes. Red usually signifies he's(Xavier) is about to use his power in fact. You're grasping at artistic drawings now. 



> No, I was still talking about Uncanny #304. Why would you think I would suddenly start referring to a completely different incident?


Oh. Because Magneto has never been mind raped like that before? Take the time to read the comics sometimes. You'll answer your own questions ._. 

When has Xavier been known to completely shut down someone's mind on a normal day? 




> Then what was your point? If you concede that the mere existence of Asteroid M doesn't act as a constant amp, then your objection to Lucifeller was completely irrelevant.


Because Marvel comics isn't OBD? Who really believes that Magneto can output normally the way he does up on Asteriod M? 

Either post scans of him doing so or your point is invalid. I've already showed you he has technology up there so do almost anything. Now it's your turn instead of finding ways to counter it without proof. 



> Proof of this please?


To reiterate, he does not have a secondary mutation.... 





> Teleportation (unless you count wormholes, and that's not what he used there) is not part of his normal powerset. Also, the fact that it was pointed out means it's easy to tell when he's not using it.


Or the fact that I don't know every use of Asteriod M? 
Also he whisked them away on pure magnetic force. The power is normal. What he is doing it, not so much.




> I didn't post any "volcano scan". If you're talking about this:
> 
> here
> 
> He states in the first panel it's his personal power. Of course, he could be lying, but it's irrelevant anyway as I didn't even use that scan in this argument.


Yes, the hologram is what Magneto is talking about. He was using it again a little bit before in this issue. Beside the fact you see Magneto in front of a computer...



> Way to ignore the majority of my reply. Every scan you've posted where he was using technology to amp himself had it specifically noted. So you can't just assume it's the case if it's not mentioned.



Yes, but those aren't his only showings when A-M is around.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 25, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> What is your point exactly? That Avalon hurt people fodder that was never mention?



That it was a worldwide disaster and definitely contradicts your idea that Magneto was not not willing to actually kill anyone in that instance. 



> Why do you keep on drifting off topic? Why do we talk about one thing and you bring up something completely irrelevant? Let's stick to telepaths okay? Who cares if he fought someone who can destroy planets. We're talking about telepathic opponents.



Xavier once tried to attack Galactus telepathically and it did nothing.

If you want to talk about other strong telepaths, we have the likes of Dr. Strange, Cassandra Nova, Apocalypse, etc.



> Yet there's nothing wrong with his showings in other issues.



They don't measure up to his classic PLs, it's stated that he's not at full power.



> 99% of the shit he gets hit with is a surprise attack. Welcome to the world of Marvel? You're giving out misleading information.



No, I'm giving canon information supported by comic evidence. If he knows something is going to use light-based attacks on him, he can set up his shield to block light. I have posted scans of this, your denial is just getting ridiculous.



> The fuck? When does light normally reach him inside his shields?




.....

Really?

The fact that he can see, and the fact that people can normally see him? This doesn't mean anything?

Do I need to explain how vision works to you? The eye can see due to taking in the light that hits it and interpreting it as images. These images are formed by light reflecting off of other objects. If light cannot reach something, it cannot reflect off it, and it cannot be seen (just like the scan I posted where Magneto is infiltrating Attilan). If light cannot reach someone's eyes, then they cannot see. This is the kind of thing you learn in 1st grade science class.



> Marvel logic =/= human. People like Magneto see the world differently than us.



Yes, just like I said, he has other senses he can use, but sight is a very important sense and he would generally prefer to use it if he can. The fact that he is normally visible to others proves it too.



> 1) The artic is the medium for his "storm"



Don't you just mean the location? What does that have to do with anything?



> 2) He's not normally amped to the point where he controls the world like he did.



Way to ignore my point. I'm saying if all he needs to make lightning is more power than he normally has, you must be saying that the only thing stopping him from creating lightning at his normal levels is that he is too weak, but that makes no sense, as he can easily do things that require far more power than creating a lightning bolt.



> 3) What local storm are you talking about?



The one Storm couldn't control, but the part in the area around her.



> FTFY



So, being in the arctic magically gives you new powers? If I go there, I can make lightning now? Why does that matter?

And I'm fairly certain that most people know what lightning is and what it looks and sounds like. She says he used lightning, there is no reason to doubt her, especially since we can even see the lightning around him.



> Your grounds are:
> We've seen lightning in his eyes



And around his body

And the woman said he was using it.

And when amped he could use it to a very high level, so using it at a weaker level should not be impossible.

And it makes perfect sense within the context of his powerset.

Thanks for ignoring most of my evidence.



> You don't have hard proof. If I said Magneto could manipulate metal. I can show you hard evidence. If I said Magneto could manipulate iron in the blood in different ways. I can show you hard evidence. If I said Magneto can manipulate lightning. I can show you hard evidence.



I have shown you evidence. You're just unfairly dismissing it.



> My mind is a bit iffy on Siege, but the heroes get a power up, yet the artist who did the art didn't draw it out too good. Therefor it didn't look like they received anything, yet we know they did. Sometimes the art doesn't match the story as there are two different people doing each.



Woman says lightning. Art shows lightning. Saying "well the art is wrong and she doesn't know what she's talking about" is a ridiculously flimsy argument, especially as you have no evidence for either.



> You're just typing to type for this one..



No, I was explaining why I posted that scan and argued with you about it. Are you saying that you retract your original claim that he can only control and not create energy?



> What.Exactly.Is.Your.Point?



That using the fact that she called him a monster as grounds to dismiss her words is illogical. She said lightning. We see lightning. Conclusion: lightning.



> And? Since when did Death = monster?



Anyone or anything who kills people can be referred to as a monster. A man-eating animal is called a monster. A murderer is called a monster. The use of the word in this context is not proof of anything.



> Let's just toss this since you're argument is purely speculation to help your cause.



No, it is canon, as proven by scans I have posted many times. He shows the ability to block light against Dazzler. He shows the ability to block light to such an extent as to make himself completely invisible when visiting Attilan. He is not normally invisible. Therefore, it is a power that he can switch on and off at will. It even says in the scan that he is willing it to happen. What part of this is confusing to you?



> Orrrrrrrrr he's hoping Magneto would come to his senses. This is just like a Naruto vs Sasuke thing. Naruto(Xavier) is hoping Sasuke(Magneto) comes to his senses and stop that bullshit, but they don't. The next issue Xavier finally sees he won't change and rapes his mind.



Bad example, as when it comes to Sasuke, Naruto is an idiot. Xavier already knew Magneto was serious and wasn't going to stop.

Let's analyze Xavier's dialogue, shall we?



			
				Uncanny X-Men #304 said:
			
		

> For all your talk of "ruling" the world, you've lost sight of the reality that it is the world that has always ruled you! In your youth, it took away the family in which you were born! As a man, it robbed you of the family you created! *You could have been a force for good in this world*, and as your friend, maybe the only friend you've ever allowed inside your heart, I can attest to the inherent goodness of *the man you once were!* But you lacked courage, Eric. The fortitude to rise above the challenges life set you. Instead, you *became the angry, bitter man I see before me!*



Note the bolded parts. If Xavier really believed he could change Magneto's mind, he would have said "You can still be a force for good in this world", 
I can attest to the inherent goodness inside you", and "You don't need to be this angry, bitter man". Instead, he talks about it in the past tense, as it has already happened, and he is beyond redemption.

If that's not enough for you, look at the narration on the very next page:





			
				Uncanny X-Men #304 said:
			
		

> Though he realizes the resulting bio-electric feedback is agonizing to his students, Xavier also knows that he has no choice if he is to save his charges as well as all those people threatened by Avalon's presence



This not only proves that he was already attacking him mentally, as it said he had no choice - that includes "hoping Magneto would come to his senses". In addition, it also supports my point about Magneto being willing to kill, as it says that the X-Men are in danger from him, and mentions the danger of Avalon. That's why Professor X had to stop him. He was going to kill them. You can't spin this any other way.

In addition, he didn't wait until the next issue like you said, he mentally took control of Magneto's powers and launched Avalon into space in that very same issue.



> Remember. This is a comic. It's normally for Magneto to have red/white eyes. Red usually signifies he's(Xavier) is about to use his power in fact. You're grasping at artistic drawings now.



I'm not talking about eyes. I'm talking about the energy flashes. Do I have to draw you a picture?



Also the scan mentions "bio-electric feedback". What's that supposed to be, if they're not actually using their powers on each other?



> Oh. Because Magneto has never been mind raped like that before? Take the time to read the comics sometimes. You'll answer your own questions ._.



I've already read it at least 6 times since we started this debate. It doesn't support what you're saying. At all.



> When has Xavier been known to completely shut down someone's mind on a normal day?



You'd think the fact that Magneto was threatening to kill him, along with most of the population of the entire planet, would not qualify as a "normal day"


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 25, 2010)

Part 2 (Continued):



> Because Marvel comics isn't OBD? Who really believes that Magneto can output normally the way he does up on Asteriod M?



Lucifeller does. I do. Pretty much everyone except you does. If there's clearly an amp involved, fine. But most of the time there isn't.



> Either post scans of him doing so or your point is invalid. I've already showed you he has technology up there so do almost anything. Now it's your turn instead of finding ways to counter it without proof.



So you're asking for impressive, clearly non-amped feats while not on Asteroid M? Did you perhaps forget the interstellar bullet moving that was posted a few pages ago? He was sitting on the ground when he did that. Or his fight with Jean in Phoenix Mode? Hell, pretty much every scan of his power that's been posted on this thread didn't take place on Asteroid M.



> To reiterate, he does not have a secondary mutation....
> *snip*



Okay, but that's moot anyway, since he was specifically stated and shown to be using a device to amp his powers in that scan with Captain America.



> Or the fact that I don't know every use of Asteriod M?



Doesn't mean you can just make things up to fill in the gaps in your knowledge.



> Also he whisked them away on pure magnetic force. The power is normal. What he is doing it, not so much.



Uh-huh. If he's never demonstrated that ability unamped, and it's not just a stronger version of one of his normal abilities, it's not part of his normal powerset.



> Yes, the hologram is what Magneto is talking about. He was using it again a little bit before in this issue. Beside the fact you see Magneto in front of a computer...



Yeah, my computer has a "cause volcano" button too. It sure comes in handy.

What about the fact that he's not typing at the computer or doing anything with it, but instead gesturing with his hands, like he often does when he uses his powers?

You talk about speculation a lot, but speculation is what you're doing. If there's no proof he's using an amp in any given situation, you can't just assume he is, especially when it's specifically pointed out whenever he does use one.



> Yes, but those aren't his only showings when A-M is around.



What exactly are you trying to say here?


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Aug 25, 2010)

> My mind is a bit iffy on Siege, but the heroes get a power up, yet the artist who did the art didn't draw it out too good. Therefor it didn't look like they received anything, yet we know they did. Sometimes the art doesn't match the story as there are two different people doing each.



What? Everybody had a magic aura around them that only appeared when Loki started his ritual, and was gone after the Void oneshotted Loki and the Stones after getting tired of that magic bullshit.

Coipel did his job just fine.


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 25, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> That it was a worldwide disaster and definitely contradicts your idea that Magneto was not not willing to actually kill anyone in that instance.


Yet instead of him and his team fighting the X-Men he choose to not fight them. It's canon he is not there to fight. 



> Xavier once tried to attack Galactus telepathically and it did nothing.
> 
> If you want to talk about other strong telepaths, we have the likes of Dr. Strange, Cassandra Nova, Apocalypse, etc.


Scans of Magneto fighting them telepathically. 





> They don't measure up to his classic PLs, it's stated that he's not at full power.


What is his classic powers to you? 60s/70s/80s? You don't seem to realize that he isn't a power brute like most feats show. He doesn't output planetary attacks on the norm. 



> No, I'm giving canon information supported by comic evidence. If he knows something is going to use light-based attacks on him, he can set up his shield to block light. I have posted scans of this, your denial is just getting ridiculous.







> .....
> 
> Really?
> 
> ...


I see how you work. If I show a scan of him amped you say he doesn't normally have that power, but when you do it's fine 

If he's only shown that ability through an amp then he doesn't normally have that power. Simple as that. Magneto has never shown that much power in Magneto War to the point if he didn't control it, the world would be destroyed. My scan is more justifiable than yours seeing as it's perfectly logical for him to do that without an amp, but you don't see me saying he can with a lil more power. 


The one Storm couldn't control, but the part in the area around her.




> So, being in the arctic magically gives you new powers? If I go there, I can make lightning now? Why does that matter?



And I'm fairly certain that most people know what lightning is and what it looks and sounds like. She says he used lightning, there is no reason to doubt her, especially since we can even see the lightning around him.





> And around his body
> 
> And the woman said he was using it.
> 
> ...


 Because I'm going with the writer's description of it being an energy pulse, sorry. Do you seriously believe a weaker Magneto could create a Magnetic storm let alone during a battle...




> Woman says lightning. Art shows lightning. Saying "well the art is wrong and she doesn't know what she's talking about" is a ridiculously flimsy argument, especially as you have no evidence for either.


Yet the caption says e.pulse which he normally uses.




> No, I was explaining why I posted that scan and argued with you about it. Are you saying that you retract your original claim that he can only control and not create *lightning*?


No.




> That using the fact that she called him a monster as grounds to dismiss her words is illogical. She said lightning. We see lightning. Conclusion: lightning.



My grounds to dismiss it would be that the author said it was an energy pulse. 



> Anyone or anything who kills people can be referred to as a monster. A man-eating animal is called a monster. A murderer is called a monster. The use of the word in this context is not proof of anything.


I don't care. I'm tired of this pointless drifting. 




> No, it is canon, as proven by scans I have posted many times. He shows the ability to block light against Dazzler. He shows the ability to block light to such an extent as to make himself completely invisible when visiting Attilan. He is not normally invisible. Therefore, it is a power that he can switch on and off at will. It even says in the scan that he is willing it to happen. What part of this is confusing to you?


You like to look at one scan and run a touchdown with it. I'll even use your scan. He blocks dazzler's light, yet he is visible. Therefore he shouldn't be since you believe unless he is invisible his shields aren't set to block light. 



> Bad example, as when it comes to Sasuke, Naruto is an idiot. Xavier already knew Magneto was serious and wasn't going to stop.





> Let's analyze Xavier's dialogue, shall we?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You really have terrible reading comprehension.... This is another Naruto v Sasuke thing. 







> If that's not enough for you, look at the narration on the very next page:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 He starts to use his powers when his eyes are red.



> In addition, he didn't wait until the next issue like you said, he mentally took control of Magneto's powers and launched Avalon into space in that very same issue.


He mind raped Magneto in X-Men #25. That's canon. 



> I'm not talking about eyes. I'm talking about the energy flashes. Do I have to draw you a picture?
> 
> 
> 
> Also the scan mentions "bio-electric feedback". What's that supposed to be, if they're not actually using their powers on each other?


Um...  You tell me.

*Spoiler*: __ 












> I've already read it at least 6 times since we started this debate. It doesn't support what you're saying. At all.


Do you read comics backwards? Magneto knows Xavier doesn't resort to drastic measures against him. Saying something like in EoD Xavier shut down his mind to support something that happened in Fatal Attractions doesn't work. 




> You'd think the fact that Magneto was threatening to kill him, along with most of the population of the entire planet, would not qualify as a "normal day"



Yet every other time Magneto does what you're saying Xavier doesn't mind rape him. This has been going on for what 20-30 years in the x-men universe until Xavier finally said fuck you?


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 25, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Part 2 (Continued):
> 
> 
> 
> Lucifeller does. I do. Pretty much everyone except you does. If there's clearly an amp involved, fine. But most of the time there isn't.


So pretty much two people who seem to be pretty clueless on Magneto/X-Men stuff believe that? I can't take someone serious who believes Asteroid M's purpose is to be dropped and destroy the world. 




> So you're asking for impressive, clearly non-amped feats while not on Asteroid M? Did you perhaps forget the interstellar bullet moving that was posted a few pages ago? He was sitting on the ground when he did that. Or his fight with Jean in Phoenix Mode? Hell, pretty much every scan of his power that's been posted on this thread didn't take place on Asteroid M.


Which K.O'd him afterward? Not a very impressive battle feat. Yet he was saying Magneto can do a bunch of stuff while on Asteriod M. So I take it you or him know something I don't. Post up or shut up. Stop dodging.




> Okay, but that's moot anyway, since he was specifically stated and shown to be using a device to amp his powers in that scan with Captain America.


How is my scan moot, yet the magnetic storm with a even STRONGERx300 amp not? 




> Doesn't mean you can just make things up to fill in the gaps in your knowledge.


Post a scan and I'll tell you. I've already proved my point. Now it's time for you or Luc to show up. Stop asking me to post scans only to say it's stated or some bullshit. 




> Uh-huh. If he's never demonstrated that ability unamped, and it's not just a stronger version of one of his normal abilities, it's not part of his normal powerset.


This is what I have to say:






> Yeah, my computer has a "cause volcano" button too. It sure comes in handy.





> Additionally, he uses a device to allow him to cause an eruption in Varykino which totally destroys the city









Everywhere with a review says it's a computer he's using. In this whole issue he's been using technology and holograms. Burden of proof is on you now. 






> What about the fact that he's not typing at the computer or doing anything with it, but instead gesturing with his hands, like he often does when he uses his powers?


 Because the volcano is already there? He already won. 



> You talk about speculation a lot, but speculation is what you're doing. If there's no proof he's using an amp in any given situation, you can't just assume he is, especially when it's specifically pointed out whenever he does use one.


Post scans or be quiet. 



> What exactly are you trying to say here?


That one of you said he can just stay up in Asteriod M and use his powers, yet don't post any scans of it. Post up or shut up. I've shown you that he can and does use amps from Asteriod M. Now it's time for you to post scans and stop speculating.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 25, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> Yet instead of him and his team fighting the X-Men he choose to not fight them. It's canon he is not there to fight.



He was going to kill them since they wouldn't join him. This was stated many times in the comic. 



> Scans of Magneto fighting them telepathically.



Magneto doesn't fight telepathically. He defends telepathically.



> What is his classic powers to you? 60s/70s/80s? You don't seem to realize that he isn't a power brute like most feats show. He doesn't output planetary attacks on the norm.



If "most feats" show it, then wouldn't that make it true? Reference Immortal Watchdog talking about him shrugging off Shi'ar weapons back when they were uber powerful and stuff like that. Of course the point is moot because Banhammer provided a direct quote.



> I see how you work. If I show a scan of him amped you say he doesn't normally have that power, but when you do it's fine



What? You posted this in my response to how he can block light. He doesn't need any amps to do that.



> If he's only shown that ability through an amp then he doesn't normally have that power. Simple as that. Magneto has never shown that much power in Magneto War to the point if he didn't control it, the world would be destroyed. My scan is more justifiable than yours seeing as it's perfectly logical for him to do that without an amp, but you don't see me saying he can with a lil more power.



There are different kinds of amps. There are the kind that simply increase the power of abilities that a character already has. The thing you're talking about with Magneto controlling the world is this kind of amp.

Then there's the kind that give the character completely new abilities they don't normally have. Such as the ability to mindrape people. You can't just talk about them as if they were the same, because they're not.



> Because I'm going with the writer's description of it being an energy pulse, sorry. Do you seriously believe a weaker Magneto could create a Magnetic storm let alone during a battle...
> 
> Yet the caption says e.pulse which he normally uses.
> 
> My grounds to dismiss it would be that the author said it was an energy pulse.



How does that preclude there being lightning? The energy pulse had already happened by the time the scan shows, yet the lightning is still there. So it's obviously not referring to the lightning. You would only have a point here if the narration said it was an energy pulse and also that there was no lightning involved.

The scan says "It was an energy pulse akin to the shockwave of a thermonuclear explosion".

It doesn't say "It was an energy pulse akin to the shockwave of a thermonuclear explosion, and definitely not lightning, and there is no lightning involved even now after it's over".

Just because there was an energy pulse doesn't mean there wasn't also lightning.



> I don't care. I'm tired of this pointless drifting.



Concession Accepted.



> You like to look at one scan and run a touchdown with it. I'll even use your scan. He blocks dazzler's light, yet he is visible. Therefore he shouldn't be since you believe unless he is invisible his shields aren't set to block light.



He was only blocking the light coming from her direction. Also you can say it's artistic license. After all, we can still see him in the scan in Attilan where he is clearly stated and shown to be invisible. It's for the benefit of the reader. Unless you're going to claim he wasn't really invisible at all and Black Bolt and all the other Inhumans were blind or just ignored him for some reason. You are still avoiding answering my central point:



			
				Me said:
			
		

> He shows the ability to block light to such an extent as to make himself completely invisible when visiting Attilan. He is not normally invisible. Therefore, it is a power that he can switch on and off at will. It even says in the scan that he is willing it to happen.



Answer this. Stop trying to dodge it.



> You really have terrible reading comprehension.... This is another Naruto v Sasuke thing.
> 
> *snip*



First scan doesn't prove anything as it said in the previous scan that he had no choice and that he was already using his powers.

Second scan isn't even from the same issue (It's from X-Men #25 I think), and it only supports my point because Xavier says he's given up on trying to change Magneto.



> He starts to use his powers when his eyes are red.



Magneto or Xavier? It doesn't matter, as they were both clearly using their powers in 304.



> He mind raped Magneto in X-Men #25. That's canon.



That's not what I'm disputing. I'm not even talking about X-Men #25, I never have been. I do have the issue, and I can talk about it if you insist, but my arguments are not relying on it, and not using it. It's completely irrelevant that he mindraped Magneto in #25, because I am talking about Uncanny X-Men #304. You completely dodged all of my points:



			
				Me said:
			
		

> If that's not enough for you, look at the narration on the very next page:
> 
> 
> 
> This not only proves that he was already attacking him mentally, as it said he had no choice - that includes "hoping Magneto would come to his senses". In addition, it also supports my point about Magneto being willing to kill, as it says that the X-Men are in danger from him, and mentions the danger of Avalon. That's why Professor X had to stop him. He was going to kill them. You can't spin this any other way.



Answer this.



> Um...  You tell me.
> 
> *snip*



I posted that very scan earlier in this thread. The flashes there are Bishop absorbing energy. This is even directly stated.



> *snip*



These next two scans are just more of the same. Magneto releasing energy and Bishop absorbing it, and Rogue trying to absorb Magneto's energy. In every case, the flashes are used to denote some type of power or energy. There was no one else fighting by the time Xavier took on Magneto (the rest had been incapacitated). Yet there was energy being emitted from both of them.



> Do you read comics backwards? Magneto knows Xavier doesn't resort to drastic measures against him. Saying something like in EoD Xavier shut down his mind to support something that happened in Fatal Attractions doesn't work.



Xavier directly stated he was going to do so, and Magneto kept resisting him. In addition, he was actually trying to kill Xavier, as well as all humans on earth and all mutants on earth who refused to join him in Avalon. He should have known that would push Xavier to drastic measures.



> Yet every other time Magneto does what you're saying Xavier doesn't mind rape him. This has been going on for what 20-30 years in the x-men universe until Xavier finally said fuck you?



Until that point Magneto had been trying to save mutants, but then he just snapped and said "Okay, if you guys don't join me, you're dead". It's directly stated that Xavier had no other choice. He even announced his intentions out loud to Magneto, but Magneto was still fighting against him. Besides, it's not the first time Xavier tried to mindrape him. An earlier scan of an attempt has been posted on this thread already.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 25, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> So pretty much two people who seem to be pretty clueless on Magneto/X-Men stuff believe that? I can't take someone serious who believes Asteroid M's purpose is to be dropped and destroy the world.



Strawman. Lucifeller never said that was its purpose. He said that it could possibly be used for that purpose. If you have to lie about what someone else said to make them look untrustworthy, your claims are pretty weak.



> Which K.O'd him afterward? Not a very impressive battle feat.



Not KO'd, he had to meditate and concentrate while doing it, but was still able to keep up mental defenses strong enough to block Emma Frost. And he did it for a long time, many hours. At the end he passed out, but if he was in a battle, why would it last that long? Most battles he would be put it would also take place at much closer range.



> Yet he was saying Magneto can do a bunch of stuff while on Asteriod M. So I take it you or him know something I don't. Post up or shut up. Stop dodging.



That's a laugh, coming from you. I don't know if Lucifeller was specifically referring to any feats (I can't read his mind, after all), but if you're going to claim that every feat he's ever done while on Asteroid M was amped, the burden of proof is on you to prove that, since non-amped is the default state.



> How is my scan moot, yet the magnetic storm with a even STRONGERx300 amp not?



Because they are different types of amps. An amp that boosts your preexisting powers is not the same as an amp that gives you completely new powers. Anyway my point was that you can't use that amp as evidence that he's amped all the time when on Asteroid M because it was specifically pointed out in that instance.



> Post a scan and I'll tell you. I've already proved my point. Now it's time for you or Luc to show up. Stop asking me to post scans only to say it's stated or some bullshit.



What kind of scan do you want? A scan of him doing something impressive from Asteroid M where it's specifically stated that he's not amped? Because that would be a pretty ridiculous request. Non - amped is the default state, that's why it's stated whenever he is amped. If he does something and it's not stated or implied he has an amp, we assume that he doesn't.



> This is what I have to say:
> 
> *snip*



I wasn't talking about creating storms. Are you even paying attention? I was talking about him teleporting people the way he did in the scan you posted.



> *snip*
> 
> Everywhere with a review says it's a computer he's using. In this whole issue he's been using technology and holograms. Burden of proof is on you now.



So when I link to a site which is not official (the profile of Magneto that said he could use gravity) you don't accept it and say if it's not on Marvel.com it doesn't count. Then you link to a bunch of unofficial sites too. 

Needless to say, I have not actually read that issue, I just found that scan when searching for Magneto and volcanoes once you mentioned it (despite what you say, I have read most of the issues I've got my other scans from). So I can give this one to you. It was never important to my argument in the first place. 



> Post scans or be quiet.



Scans of *what?* What kind of scan could I reasonably be expected to post to prove that he's not always amped? You're the one who made the claim that whenever he is on Asteroid M, he is being amped, so you the burden of proof is on you to prove it. Posting scans of individual instances where he was amped using Asteroid M technology doesn't prove anything, because it is always specifically stated. You can't just extrapolate that to assume that whenever he's on Asteroid M he's being amped by something.



> That one of you said he can just stay up in Asteriod M and use his powers, yet don't post any scans of it. Post up or shut up. I've shown you that he can and does use amps from Asteriod M. Now it's time for you to post scans and stop speculating.



Lucifeller made the claims about him attacking the earth from Asteroid M. Why don't you ask *him* to post scans of it?


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 25, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> He was going to kill them since they wouldn't join him. This was stated many times in the comic.


Yes, if they didn't join.  Like I said. He was not there to fight them.





> Magneto doesn't fight telepathically. He defends telepathically.


Way to cop out  Post scans or shut up. Stop dodging. 



> If "most feats" show it, then wouldn't that make it true? Reference Immortal Watchdog talking about him shrugging off Shi'ar weapons back when they were uber powerful and stuff like that. Of course the point is moot because Banhammer provided a direct quote.


If you can only show. Say 30(idk the exact #) scans of him doing amazing in the span of 60 years. That's obviously not his average showings.



> What? You posted this in my response to how he can block light. He doesn't need any amps to do that.


Sorry that part was for the last quote. 



> There are different kinds of amps. There are the kind that simply increase the power of abilities that a character already has. The thing you're talking about with Magneto controlling the world is this kind of amp.
> 
> Then there's the kind that give the character completely new abilities they don't normally have. Such as the ability to mindrape people. You can't just talk about them as if they were the same, because they're not.


As I said Magneto's mind powers were due to Magnetism. He manipulated his kids bloodstream to mold their thoughts. Basic Magneto move.

The scan with Captain America it's augmented so he wiped the prejudice out of people's minds. Is that mindrape to you or are you talking about another scan?

Magneto has never shown to create any type of storm without that heavy ass amp.  



> How does that preclude there being lightning? The energy pulse had already happened by the time the scan shows, yet the lightning is still there. So it's obviously not referring to the lightning. You would only have a point here if the narration said it was an energy pulse and also that there was no lightning involved.


The attack he did was a energy pulse. Do you agree? What lightning attack did he use or are you saying a little lightning sparkle is good enough to say he can create lightning? 



> The scan says "It was an energy pulse akin to the shockwave of a thermonuclear explosion".
> 
> It doesn't say "It was an energy pulse akin to the shockwave of a thermonuclear explosion, and definitely not lightning, and there is no lightning involved even now after it's over".


Nor does it say "It was an energy pulse akin to the shockwave of a thermonuclear explosion, and there was defiantly lightning for cosmetic effects" 



> Just because there was an energy pulse doesn't mean there wasn't also lightning.


Answer this. What attack did Magneto use in that scan?




> He was only blocking the light coming from her direction. Also you can say it's artistic license. After all, we can still see him in the scan in Attilan where he is clearly stated and shown to be invisible. It's for the benefit of the reader. Unless you're going to claim he wasn't really invisible at all and Black Bolt and all the other Inhumans were blind or just ignored him for some reason. You are still avoiding answering my central point:


How do you know he was only blocking light coming from her direction? It looks to be all around him in the scan. 



> Answer this. Stop trying to dodge it.


What am I answering exactly? The scan states he's invisible. No other scan says he is invisible or suggests he is normally invisible with his shields. 



> First scan doesn't prove anything as it said in the previous scan that he had no choice and that he was already using his powers.


Yes he has no choice, but he refuses to believe that Magneto has changed. 

"For years I convinced myself you weren't to blame for your actions. Each confrontation I hoped would be our last -- Because I was sure you would come to your senses"



> Second scan isn't even from the same issue (It's from X-Men #25 I think), and it only supports my point because Xavier says he's given up on trying to change Magneto.



"I have hidden behind our philosophical differences for too long, always willing to forgive you for your transgressions. I can no longer do that"

Prior to this he was only trying to show that Magneto's ways were wrong. After Magneto almost killed Wolverine is when Xavier gives up on him. It doesn't support your point as he did nothing in the previous issue(#304)





> Magneto or Xavier? It doesn't matter, as they were both clearly using their powers in 304.


Xavier doesn't use his powers until his eyes are red. Xavier's eyes turn red when he is about to do something like that. 




> That's not what I'm disputing. I'm not even talking about X-Men #25, I never have been. I do have the issue, and I can talk about it if you insist, but my arguments are not relying on it, and not using it. It's completely irrelevant that he mindraped Magneto in #25, because I am talking about Uncanny X-Men #304. You completely dodged all of my points:


X-Men #25 is completely valid. It's the next issue in the story. It's not like I'm talking about something 20 years later. You can even SEE the differences in Xavier in the two. In 304 he still thinks Magneto will turn around. So he tosses him and avalon into space. In #25 he gives up on him and takes away his mind. 


> Answer this.


Xavier did NOT use his powers until his eyes are red. He is still trying to convince Magneto his way is wrong. How can you not see this? Do you really think Magneto wouldn't know or the author would fail to tell us that Magneto is resisting? The author or someone in the issue points out that he is resisting or what not. Nothing is said AT ALL. 


> I posted that very scan earlier in this thread. The flashes there are Bishop absorbing energy. This is even directly stated.



Scan #1
Magneto is reversing the iron in everyone's blood so they cannot use their mutant power or something. Bishop is under this effect too, but absorbs the energy. Everyone gives Bishop that power so he can hurt Magneto.

Don't you think it's a bit odd Cyclops is touching Bishop insteading of....Shooting him with his optic blasts like he normally does?




> These next two scans are just more of the same. Magneto releasing energy and Bishop absorbing it, and Rogue trying to absorb Magneto's energy. In every case, the flashes are used to denote some type of power or energy. There was no one else fighting by the time Xavier took on Magneto (the rest had been incapacitated). Yet there was energy being emitted from both of them.


The other two scans everyone has energy around them.



> Xavier directly stated he was going to do so, and Magneto kept resisting him. In addition, he was actually trying to kill Xavier, as well as all humans on earth and all mutants on earth who refused to join him in Avalon. He should have known that would push Xavier to drastic measures.


Where is it said that Magneto is resisting Xavier? You're just making shit up as they are just talking at this point. 




> Until that point Magneto had been trying to save mutants, but then he just snapped and said "Okay, if you guys don't join me, you're dead". It's directly stated that Xavier had no other choice. He even announced his intentions out loud to Magneto, but Magneto was still fighting against him. Besides, it's not the first time Xavier tried to mindrape him. An earlier scan of an attempt has been posted on this thread already.


A psi-bolt doesn't count as mind raping..... He hasn't snapped. That has always been his way of doing things as a villain... When he got revamped. Previously to that he was out to rule the world.


----------



## Veikuri (Aug 25, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Strawman. Lucifeller never said that was its purpose. He said that it could possibly be used for that purpose. If you have to lie about what someone else said to make them look untrustworthy, your claims are pretty weak.





> He had no trouble attacking cities from Asteroid M. Mostly, he appeared in person to make an impression - a stupid thing to do, but I chalk that up to either publicity stunt or CIS. He doesn't really NEED to come off Asteroid M to waste things and people.
> 
> Hell nothing prevents him from going on Asteroid M and then simply colonydropping every satellite in orbit around Earth (and there's a LOT of that crap around Earth) on anyone he damn well pleases to soften them up, then finish the job with his powers while they are recovering. Nothing except comicbook drama conventions, that is.



He said two things. He can attack people from Asteriod M or drop it on people. 




> Not KO'd, he had to meditate and concentrate while doing it, but was still able to keep up mental defenses strong enough to block Emma Frost. And he did it for a long time, many hours. At the end he passed out, but if he was in a battle, why would it last that long? Most battles he would be put it would also take place at much closer range.


Do you know what K.O. stands for? Knocked Out. After he brought the bullet he fainted. What is wrong with you.


> That's a laugh, coming from you. I don't know if Lucifeller was specifically referring to any feats (I can't read his mind, after all), but if you're going to claim that every feat he's ever done while on Asteroid M was amped, the burden of proof is on you to prove that, since non-amped is the default state.



How is the burden of proof on me when I don't even know what he's talking about. Again stop dodging and post scans. Burden of proof is on you or him. Saying "He can do this now prove me wrong" without scans is not how it should be. If it is then I'm just going to stop replying.



> Because they are different types of amps. An amp that boosts your preexisting powers is not the same as an amp that gives you completely new powers. Anyway my point was that you can't use that amp as evidence that he's amped all the time when on Asteroid M because it was specifically pointed out in that instance.



What gave him completely new powers? I still don't know what you're talking about. 



> What kind of scan do you want? A scan of him doing something impressive from Asteroid M where it's specifically stated that he's not amped? Because that would be a pretty ridiculous request. Non - amped is the default state, that's why it's stated whenever he is amped. If he does something and it's not stated or implied he has an amp, we assume that he doesn't.


Post something so I can work with. It doesn't have to say he's not amped. You two seem to just throw out speculation and avoid posting scans to back up some statements. I never asked for a scan of him not amped. I said post the scan Luc was talking about how he can attack from Asteriod M. You just like to that things out of hand.




> I wasn't talking about creating storms. Are you even paying attention? I was talking about him teleporting people the way he did in the scan you posted.



That's what an amp does. He can make people fly. What's the next step? Teleportation. 



> So when I link to a site which is not official (the profile of Magneto that said he could use gravity) you don't accept it and say if it's not on Marvel.com it doesn't count. Then you link to a bunch of unofficial sites too.


 I'm not saying it's offical, but reading the issue and him IN FRONT of a computer creating a volcano which is NOT in his powers. Do you seriously believe he can just whisk a volcano at will? 



> Needless to say, I have not actually read that issue, I just found that scan when searching for Magneto and volcanoes once you mentioned it (despite what you say, I have read most of the issues I've got my other scans from). So I can give this one to you. It was never important to my argument in the first place.



It's UXM 150.. The same issue where is resists a psi bolt from Xavier. The same issue with the Storm vs Magneto lightning thing...



> Scans of *what?* What kind of scan could I reasonably be expected to post to prove that he's not always amped? You're the one who made the claim that whenever he is on Asteroid M, he is being amped, so you the burden of proof is on you to prove it. Posting scans of individual instances where he was amped using Asteroid M technology doesn't prove anything, because it is always specifically stated. You can't just extrapolate that to assume that whenever he's on Asteroid M he's being amped by something.


Like I said. How can I possibly post a scan of something I don't even know? He just makes a blanket statement he can attack from Asteriod M. What could I possibly post? The burden of proof is on Lucifier. How the hell is it on me?




> Lucifeller made the claims about him attacking the earth from Asteroid M. Why don't you ask *him* to post scans of it?


I have. He made excuses. So since you agreed with him. I'm asking you.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 25, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> Yes, if they didn't join.  Like I said. He was not there to fight them.



Colossus was the only one who agreed to join. The others said they wouldn't, and he was going to kill them. That's why Xavier mindraped him. It was stated in the narration.



> Though he realizes the resulting bio-electric feedback is agonizing to his students, Xavier also knows that he has no choice if he is to save his charges as well as all those people threatened by Avalon's presence





> Way to cop out Post scans or shut up. Stop dodging.



Will a story summary suffice?



This guy was a stronger telepath than Xavier and he basically sifted through Magneto's mind easily.



> If you can only show. Say 30(idk the exact #) scans of him doing amazing in the span of 60 years. That's obviously not his average showings.



I hate this argument. In order to satisfy you, I would have to post hundreds or thousands of scans. Do you really think that is a reasonable request to make?

As a general rule, 3 instances should be more than enough to establish a capability. 10 or more should be reaching into unquestionable territory. When 30 isn't enough for you, you're just trolling. Unless you can provide specific counterexamples to disprove the events of all of those scans, you can't just demand more infinitely.



> As I said Magneto's mind powers were due to Magnetism. He manipulated his kids bloodstream to mold their thoughts. Basic Magneto move.
> 
> The scan with Captain America it's augmented so he wiped the prejudice out of people's minds. Is that mindrape to you or are you talking about another scan?



Captain America said he's never had that power before.



> Magneto has never shown to create any type of storm without that heavy ass amp.



The ability to create storms is not what I'm talking about. I'm just talking about the ability to create lightning. Even one measly lightning bolt.



> The attack he did was a energy pulse. Do you agree? What lightning attack did he use or are you saying a little lightning sparkle is good enough to say he can create lightning?



And the lightning couldn't be a side effect of the energy pulse, or occur in addition to the energy pulse? It was stated and shown that he was creating lightning. As for "a little lightning sparkle", the whole lightning debate started when I commented on a scan of a weakened Magneto holding some people off, and said it looked like he was using lightning. Then you said he couldn't, and we got into this whole thing. But the "little lightning sparkles" in the energy pulse scan are much bigger than the ones in the scan that started this whole thing. Which means that if you admit these "sparkles" are a form of lightning, there's no reason the bolts in the scan I was originally talking about couldn't also be lightning or some form of electricity.



> Nor does it say "It was an energy pulse akin to the shockwave of a thermonuclear explosion, and there was defiantly lightning for cosmetic effects"



It doesn't need to, because

A. We can see the lightning
B. The lightning is commented on in dialogue



> Answer this. What attack did Magneto use in that scan?



He did not use any attack in that scan. The scan shows us what happened after the attack was already over. He had used an energy pulse like you said, but we can see lightning as an aftereffect.



> How do you know he was only blocking light coming from her direction? It looks to be all around him in the scan.



We can see representations of the individual photons he is blocking. They are being fired by Dazzler. Also, you dodged my point again.



> What am I answering exactly? The scan states he's invisible. No other scan says he is invisible or suggests he is normally invisible with his shields.



Exactly. That proves he can activate the invisibility if he wants to. Which means he can block light if he wants to.



> Yes he has no choice, but he refuses to believe that Magneto has changed.
> 
> "For years I convinced myself you weren't to blame for your actions. Each confrontation I hoped would be our last -- Because I was sure you would come to your senses"



Note that he's speaking in the past tense here. Meaning he no longer believes that.



> "I have hidden behind our philosophical differences for too long, always willing to forgive you for your transgressions. I can no longer do that"
> 
> Prior to this he was only trying to show that Magneto's ways were wrong. After Magneto almost killed Wolverine is when Xavier gives up on him. It doesn't support your point as he did nothing in the previous issue(#304)



He did nothing? So Avalon just randomly flew into space by itself? Xavier clearly used a mental attack on Magneto in that issue.



> Xavier doesn't use his powers until his eyes are red. Xavier's eyes turn red when he is about to do something like that.



Explain these then:


here
here
 (this is Xavier and Cassandra Nova as fetuses, in case you didn't know)

here
here

There are a lot more where this came from. The red eyes thing is hardly a universal rule, or even used that often.



> X-Men #25 is completely valid. It's the next issue in the story. It's not like I'm talking about something 20 years later. You can even SEE the differences in Xavier in the two. In 304 he still thinks Magneto will turn around. So he tosses him and avalon into space. In #25 he gives up on him and takes away his mind.



Yet both attacks qualify as a mindrape or mental attack. In #304 Magneto managed to resist for a while and Xavier was exhausted at the end. 



> Xavier did NOT use his powers until his eyes are red. He is still trying to convince Magneto his way is wrong. How can you not see this? Do you really think Magneto wouldn't know or the author would fail to tell us that Magneto is resisting? The author or someone in the issue points out that he is resisting or what not. Nothing is said AT ALL.



Energy pulsing around them? The narration saying that Xavier is doing it despite the bio-electric feedback it would cause (which is spoken of in the present tense?)




> Scan #1
> Magneto is reversing the iron in everyone's blood so they cannot use their mutant power or something. Bishop is under this effect too, but absorbs the energy. Everyone gives Bishop that power so he can hurt Magneto.
> 
> Don't you think it's a bit odd Cyclops is touching Bishop insteading of....Shooting him with his optic blasts like he normally does?



What does that have to do with anything?



> The other two scans everyone has energy around them.



That's because they're being attacked by Magneto. You said yourself that Magneto was trying to reason with Xavier and not attacking him.



> Where is it said that Magneto is resisting Xavier? You're just making shit up as they are just talking at this point.



Xavier says he's going to try to take mental control of Magneto's powers. The narration confirms it's happening. Yet it doesn't succeed until several pages later.



> A psi-bolt doesn't count as mind raping.....



Why not? It's a mental attack. Why does trying to take control of his powers temporarily count but not that?



> He hasn't snapped. That has always been his way of doing things as a villain... When he got revamped. Previously to that he was out to rule the world.



Xavier's dialogue suggests Magneto had gone too far. As you've been saying, in the next issue Xavier completely accepts this.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 25, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> He said two things. He can attack people from Asteriod M or drop it on people.



Can you read? That post you quoted doesn't even talk about dropping Asteroid M, it talks about dropping satellites. When he did talk about dropping the asteroid, he was just saying that was something he could possibly do with it, not its original purpose. The purpose of a car is not to run over people, but that doesn't mean you can't use it for that if you want to. 



> Do you know what K.O. stands for? Knocked Out. After he brought the bullet he fainted. What is wrong with you.



Again, can you read? That was after over 24 hours of effort. Unless he's in a battle that you think would take such a long time (and very few battles would), that's irrelevant.



> How is the burden of proof on me when I don't even know what he's talking about. Again stop dodging and post scans. Burden of proof is on you or him. Saying "He can do this now prove me wrong" without scans is not how it should be. If it is then I'm just going to stop replying.



Again, I don't know what specific instances he is referring to. It was never my argument. Ask him for those scans, not me.



> What gave him completely new powers? I still don't know what you're talking about.



Captain America: "You've never had powers like this before".



> Post something so I can work with. It doesn't have to say he's not amped. You two seem to just throw out speculation and avoid posting scans to back up some statements. I never asked for a scan of him not amped. I said post the scan Luc was talking about how he can attack from Asteriod M. You just like to that things out of hand.



Again, ask him, as that was the claim he made, not one I made.



> That's what an amp does. He can make people fly. What's the next step? Teleportation.



So amped flight naturally leads to teleportation? That's a new one. Superman can fly, and he can amp himself by flying near or in the sun, but I've never seen him gain the ability to teleport from that. Do you have any evidence for this assertion at all?



> I'm not saying it's offical, but reading the issue and him IN FRONT of a computer creating a volcano which is NOT in his powers. Do you seriously believe he can just whisk a volcano at will?



Not any more than I believe a computer can create one. The purpose of a computer is calculation, not volcano-making. It was obviously some other kind of device, which is not evident in the scan alone. And Magneto has shown the ability to move earth and ground, so really all he would have to do is use his powers to break a hole in the earth's crust and lava would naturally flow out. Lava also has a lot of melted metal in it. Not saying that's what he did in that instance (again, I didn't read that issue), but I don't see why it would not be possible. Anyway arguing about it is irrelevant since you brought up the volcano thing, not me, and it's not pat of my argument. 



> It's UXM 150.. The same issue where is resists a psi bolt from Xavier. The same issue with the Storm vs Magneto lightning thing...



Like I said, I haven't read that one. However, I've read most of the others being mentioned in this thread.



> Like I said. How can I possibly post a scan of something I don't even know? He just makes a blanket statement he can attack from Asteriod M. What could I possibly post? The burden of proof is on Lucifier. How the hell is it on me?



I interpreted your comments as saying that he is always amped whenever he's on Asteroid M.



> I have. He made excuses. So since you agreed with him. I'm asking you.



I have no reason to doubt him, but it's not my job to make his argument for him. The stuff about Asteroid M was never part of my original claims.


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## Veikuri (Aug 25, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Colossus was the only one who agreed to join. The others said they wouldn't, and he was going to kill them. That's why Xavier mindraped him. It was stated in the narration.


I call it self defense. If Magneto was really there to kill him they would be dead. He was trying to reason with Xavier and everyone. Like he ALWAYS does. 






> Will a story summary suffice?
> 
> 
> 
> This guy was a stronger telepath than Xavier and he basically sifted through Magneto's mind easily.


When did Alpha telepathically rape Magneto? Unless you consider turning him into an infant. I read Defenders #16. 




> I hate this argument. In order to satisfy you, I would have to post hundreds or thousands of scans. Do you really think that is a reasonable request to make?
> 
> As a general rule, 3 instances should be more than enough to establish a capability. 10 or more should be reaching into unquestionable territory. When 30 isn't enough for you, you're just trolling. Unless you can provide specific counterexamples to disprove the events of all of those scans, you can't just demand more infinitely.



No, but when you have at least 1000 scans showing how he normally fights. I'd rather use that. I have been countering your posts. I meant 30 as in everything he does. Like he reacts to Quicksilver once or twice therefore he is FTL or whatever. That is stupid. 



> Captain America said he's never *like* that power before.


 Meaning his mental powers are a lot stronger out of no where. Not that he doesn't have that power. 




> The ability to create storms is not what I'm talking about. I'm just talking about the ability to create lightning. Even one measly lightning bolt.
> 
> 
> 
> And the lightning couldn't be a side effect of the energy pulse, or occur in addition to the energy pulse? It was stated and shown that he was creating lightning. As for "a little lightning sparkle", the whole lightning debate started when I commented on a scan of a weakened Magneto holding some people off, and said it looked like he was using lightning. Then you said he couldn't, and we got into this whole thing. But the "little lightning sparkles" in the energy pulse scan are much bigger than the ones in the scan that started this whole thing. Which means that if you admit these "sparkles" are a form of lightning, there's no reason the bolts in the scan I was originally talking about couldn't also be lightning or some form of electricity.


I viewed it as him pushing them back with his magnetic powers. If he were to shock one of them he would of probably been sentenced to death. Something he doesn't want. 




> It doesn't need to, because
> 
> A. We can see the lightning
> B. The lightning is commented on in dialogue
> ...


You just answered yourself.



> We can see representations of the individual photons he is blocking. They are being fired by Dazzler. Also, you dodged my point again.


What point would that be?



> Exactly. That proves he can activate the invisibility if he wants to. Which means he can block light if he wants to.


Or that invisibility thing was just there for plot and later shown he doesn't need to be invisible?





> Note that he's speaking in the past tense here. Meaning he no longer believes that.


Because they're in the present tense?



> He did nothing? So Avalon just randomly flew into space by itself? Xavier clearly used a mental attack on Magneto in that issue.


Yes, but I was referring to damaging Magneto. Not sending him on his way only to return.




> Explain these then:
> 
> 
> here
> ...


Artistic value. In X-Men #25 when Xavier gets serious and rapes his mind his eyes are red. When he is probing his mind prior to this his eyes are normal/shaded. Coincidence? 




> Yet both attacks qualify as a mindrape or mental attack. In #304 Magneto managed to resist for a while and Xavier was exhausted at the end.


You can't place Xavier sending Magneto away in the same boat as Xavier taking away Magneto's mind virtually killing him.




> Energy pulsing around them? The narration saying that Xavier is doing it despite the bio-electric feedback it would cause (which is spoken of in the present tense?)


What did the bio-electic feedback have to do with his telepathic abilities? 





> What does that have to do with anything?


There's energy around them.




> That's because they're being attacked by Magneto. You said yourself that Magneto was trying to reason with Xavier and not attacking him.


In that second scan Xavier and Magneto are talking. Do you believe that Xavier is trying to mind rape him at that point too? 




> Xavier says he's going to try to take mental control of Magneto's powers. The narration confirms it's happening. Yet it doesn't succeed until several pages later.


several? The next two pages are a full page spread then he gets mind raped. wth is several to you? I count a full page spread as 1. 



> Why not? It's a mental attack. Why does trying to take control of his powers temporarily count but not that?


That's like touching a girl's butt and saying you raped her....





> Xavier's dialogue suggests Magneto had gone too far. As you've been saying, in the next issue Xavier completely accepts this.


Okay?


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## Veikuri (Aug 25, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Can you read? That post you quoted doesn't even talk about dropping Asteroid M, it talks about dropping satellites. When he did talk about dropping the asteroid, he was just saying that was something he could possibly do with it, not its original purpose. The purpose of a car is not to run over people, but that doesn't mean you can't use it for that if you want to.



I quoted the wrong one, my bad.



> Again, can you read? That was after over 24 hours of effort. Unless he's in a battle that you think would take such a long time (and very few battles would), that's irrelevant.


 Then what is your point exactly? Or is this just to help my argument that current Magneto isn't that weak? 



> Again, I don't know what specific instances he is referring to. It was never my argument. Ask him for those scans, not me.


then why are you asking me for proof?



> Captain America: "You've never had powers like this before".


Meaning it's stronger. 




> So amped flight naturally leads to teleportation? That's a new one. Superman can fly, and he can amp himself by flying near or in the sun, but I've never seen him gain the ability to teleport from that. Do you have any evidence for this assertion at all?


Magneto technically doesn't "fly" he rides the magnetic waves as said in Secret Wars. If you augment that then teleportation isn't too far fetched. 



> I interpreted your comments as saying that he is always amped whenever he's on Asteroid M.


No, someone who reads X-Men should know what I'm talking about. That's like me calling the bat cave an amp and someone saying the mere existence of the bat cave isn't an amp 



> I have no reason to doubt him, but it's not my job to make his argument for him. The stuff about Asteroid M was never part of my original claims.


You sure make it sound like you're on his side.


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## Fang (Aug 25, 2010)

Luke already got through his To-Aru gauntlet thread, why is this still going on for Erik still.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 25, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> I call it self defense. If Magneto was really there to kill him they would be dead. He was trying to reason with Xavier and everyone. Like he ALWAYS does.



It was stated to be defense of not only himself, but his students and everyone in the world. 



> When did Alpha telepathically rape Magneto? Unless you consider turning him into an infant. I read Defenders #16.



He's able to enter and probe his mind without being resisted. I read that one a long time ago but I don't have any scans of it.



> No, but when you have at least 1000 scans showing how he normally fights.



Post 1000 scans. Go ahead. I dare you. Find 1000 scans of what you're talking about and post them in this thread.



> I'd rather use that. I have been countering your posts. I meant 30 as in everything he does. Like he reacts to Quicksilver once or twice therefore he is FTL or whatever. That is stupid.



Quicksilver has only been upgraded to FTL very recently. I don't think Magneto has dodged him since then. However, he does have lots of feats of reaction to fast characters and phenomenon, although this debate is so tedious I'd prefer not to open up yet another topic of discussion. 



> Meaning his mental powers are a lot stronger out of no where. Not that he doesn't have that power.



He says "You never had mental powers like this before". If he could control minds before like you said, why would simply using his powers to paralyze a half dozen people be such an upgrade?



> I viewed it as him pushing them back with his magnetic powers. If he were to shock one of them he would of probably been sentenced to death. Something he doesn't want.



He wouldn't have to kill them. Just lightly shock them, enough to keep them back, like a taser.



> You just answered yourself.



What? I'm not denying that the energy pulse happened, or that it was different from the lightning, I'm just saying there was lightning too.



> What point would that be?





			
				Me said:
			
		

> Also you can say it's artistic license. After all, we can still see him in the scan in Attilan where he is clearly stated and shown to be invisible. It's for the benefit of the reader. Unless you're going to claim he wasn't really invisible at all and Black Bolt and all the other Inhumans were blind or just ignored him for some reason.



That point.



> Or that invisibility thing was just there for plot and later shown he doesn't need to be invisible?



You're saying he can't actually become invisible despite it being clearly shown and stated in the scan? 



> Because they're in the present tense?



If he still believed that he would be speaking in the present tense. The fact that he's speaking in the past tense means that he doesn't believe that anymore. This is basic grammar.



> Yes, but I was referring to damaging Magneto. Not sending him on his way only to return.



A mental attack is a mental attack. My argument is that Magneto can resist Xavier's telepathic attacks to an extent, and won't lose to them instantly, as you seem to be claiming. The intent behind the attack is irrelevant.



> Artistic value. In X-Men #25 when Xavier gets serious and rapes his mind his eyes are red. When he is probing his mind prior to this his eyes are normal/shaded. Coincidence?



Your entire argument relies on artistic cues. Xavier's eyes aren't always red when he's using his powers. I've just proven that. Also, the colorist for UXM #304 was different than the one for #25.




Mike Thomas for the first one, Joe Rosas for the second. So you can't claim it's a rule used by a specific colorist.



> You can't place Xavier sending Magneto away in the same boat as Xavier taking away Magneto's mind virtually killing him.



The intent was different, but both attacks require overcoming Magneto's mental defenses in order to access his mind. That's what I'm arguing about, not about what Xavier does to it once he has access.



> What did the bio-electic feedback have to do with his telepathic abilities?



The narration states that Xavier has to mentally attack Magneto, even though the bio-electric feedback is dangerous to his students. This implies that the danger of said feedback would not be present if he was not attempting to mentally attack Magneto. This means that it is a direct result of his telepathic attack. It's not that difficult to figure out.



> There's energy around them.



....And?



> In that second scan Xavier and Magneto are talking. Do you believe that Xavier is trying to mind rape him at that point too?



I believe Xavier was trying to mindrape him from the moment after he said "by using my mental powers to commandeer Magneto's own!" The narration supports this. Also, you dodged my point. The energy around the other X-Men is because Magneto is attacking them. If Magneto was not attacking Xavier, why was there energy around him?



> several? The next two pages are a full page spread then he gets mind raped. wth is several to you? I count a full page spread as 1.



Well it starts in the first panel of the "commandeer Magneto's own" scan. Then there are all the rest of the panels on that page. After that there's a two - page spread while Magneto is still resisting. He doesn't succeed until the page after that. On the next page, he collapses in exhaustion.



> That's like touching a girl's butt and saying you raped her....



Again, like I said, breaching Magneto's mental defenses is what I'm focusing on, not what he does to his mind once he's in. If someone has strong mental defenses, then battering them down and proceeding to destroy his mind shouldn't be much more difficult than battering them down and proceeding to implant an image of a cute puppy in his head. It's the battle against the mental defenses that requires the most effort.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 25, 2010)

I don't think it's even about Mags vs FUZE anymore


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## Endless Mike (Aug 25, 2010)

Veikuri said:


> Then what is your point exactly? Or is this just to help my argument that current Magneto isn't that weak?



You asked for impressive feats of Magneto not on Asteroid M. That counts as one.



> then why are you asking me for proof?



Because you were saying that he's always amped when in Asteroid M.



> Meaning it's stronger.



Wouldn't he have said "You've never had mental powers as strong as this before", then?



> Magneto technically doesn't "fly" he rides the magnetic waves as said in Secret Wars. If you augment that then teleportation isn't too far fetched.



Not really. We can make things levitate today using magets, just pumping more power into the magnets doesn't make them teleport. The two abilities are completely unrelated.



> No, someone who reads X-Men should know what I'm talking about. That's like me calling the bat cave an amp and someone saying the mere existence of the bat cave isn't an amp



Didn't we go through this analogy already?



> You sure make it sound like you're on his side.



We both disagree with you, that doesn't mean we both have to use the exact same arguments and should be expected to always know what the other one is talking about. The people who disagree with you are individuals, not some monolithic entity. The burden of proof is on the person who made the claim. Asking me to prove his claims for him is not a valid argument, as I am under no obligation to do so.



TWF said:


> Luke already breezed through his To-Aru gauntlet, why is this still going on for Erik.



It's already agreed he wins, this guy just won't stop nitpicking about a bunch of stuff.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Aug 25, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> I don't think it's even about Mags vs FUZE anymore



It stopped being about that several pages ago. Now I believe it's about Magneto's abilities through continuity or something. To much tl;dr.


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 25, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> I don't think it's even about Mags vs FUZE anymore



It isn't. Magneto won. They are arguing about something else entirely now. So yea, if you guys (EM and Veikuri) want to argue about Magneto's powers then feel free to create a thread in the meta. Locking this since this has gone way off topic.


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