# Mewtwo vs. Lugia



## Gorblax (May 1, 2009)

Take feats from all media regarding each. Fight is in mid-air, above the Pokemon Stadium from the N64 game.


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## skiboydoggy (May 1, 2009)

Lugia got defeated by Pryce's Delibird. Mewtwo needed all of Red's Pokemon and a Master Ball to take down. This is rape.


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## Senbonzakura (May 1, 2009)

I guess its mewtwo.


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## The World (May 1, 2009)

I thought Lugia was stronger than Mewtwo from the movie.


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## Tranquil Fury (May 1, 2009)

Mewtwo?He had an IQ surpassing Alakazam who was 5,000 something so Mewtwo can think at 1/trillionth of a sec or so Plus He could just teleport Lugia into the Sun or something.I could be wrong have'nt played Pokemon in a long time.


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## enzymeii (May 1, 2009)

In the movie, iirc, Mewtwo was able to telepathically shut down every other Pokemon's special abilities.  Don't see what's stopping him from just giving Lugia a stroke right off the bat.


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## The World (May 1, 2009)

Isn't Lugia a psychic type too?


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## Tranquil Fury (May 1, 2009)

Yes Lugia is a psychic and flying type.


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## Falco-san (May 1, 2009)

But Mewtwo's psychic abillities stil outclass Lugia. Mewtwo wins.


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## Deaf Ninja Reaper (May 1, 2009)

HAHAHA!

It's long time since I last heard that name Mewtwo (in a school where every single children went CRAZY for Pokeman when it was firstly shown in UK)

So Mewtwo would laugh and happily rape the hell out of Lugia.

But team Lugia up with Mew, then maybe Mewtwo would lose.....BADLY.


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## ipakmann (May 1, 2009)

Roxxas said:


> I thought Lugia was stronger than Mewtwo from the movie.



how did you gather this?


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## Tiocfaidh ?r l? (May 1, 2009)

Well Lugia is clearly stronger based on game mechanics and clearly more awesome as well so I give him the nod 





On a serious note, I don't think Mewto beat anyone of Lugia's speed or psychic ability in the movie, so it could definitely be close.  



enzymeii said:


> Don't see what's stopping him from just giving Lugia a stroke right off the bat.



I don't think that would work on a legendary that can take on Moltres, Articuno, and Zapdos all at the same time.  Lugia is literally the guardian of the seas.  I will give my final verdict once I have time to watch clips from both movies.


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## Akatora (May 1, 2009)

There's mroe than 1 Lugia, there's only 1 Mewtwo

THe strongest Lugia I think would be stronger than Mewtwon, but the average Lugia should be below Mewtwo


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## ipakmann (May 1, 2009)

Game wise mewtwo would utterly rape Lugia 


Stat wise Lugia can take a lot but can't really dish anything out. While mewtwo can take a hit and dish out loads of damage in pokemon Mewtwo, Arceus, and Deoxys have the highest offensive stats complmented with amazing speed. 
In other words Lugia isn't winning this.


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## Tiocfaidh ?r l? (May 1, 2009)

here - Mewto vs Mew
here - Lugia vs Moltres, Articuno and Zapdos

Lugia looks much more impressive IMO.  Faster, and his aeroblast looks much more devastating than Mewtwo's attacks.  (6:16 of second video).

Lugia wins


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## Xelloss (May 1, 2009)

Ohh please dont bring stat wise mewtwo would cry on his bed agains a well trained Blissy


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## Shirō Kazami (May 1, 2009)

Xelloss said:


> Ohh please dont bring stat wise mewtwo would cry on his bed agains a well trained Blissy



Lul, Bulk Up/Taunt/Selfdestruct Mewtwo laughs at Blissey who expect CM/spec versions.

Oh yeah, CM Mewtwo > Lugia anyway.


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## Tiocfaidh ?r l? (May 1, 2009)

ipakmann said:


> Game wise mewtwo would utterly rape Lugia



No. 

Where are you pulling this from your ass?  I have the offical pokemon guide for gold/silver right next to me (yes, I'm a loser) and Lugia and HO-OH have the best stats out of any pokemon from red, blue, yellow, gold, or silver.  Here is the best online site I can find on quick notice.  Link removed.  

Any other site you search is going to tell you the same thing.  An average Lugia's 99 stats > an average Mewtwo's.  I say "average" because it depends on various factors such as whether or not you used rare candy, what level you raised Lugia from, etc.  Also, Lugia's aeroblast has a higher power rating than Psychic (although slightly less accuracy).  And the point brought up about Lugia's weak attack is moot.  The difference between Lugia's special attack (which controls the damage for psychic) is smaller than the difference between his special defense and Mewtwo's special defense.  Mewtwo's special defense is AWFUL.

Lugia wins 9/10 times if both are level 99.  I will add some youtube gamebow videos if I find the time but it's clear to anyone not pulling information out of their ass that Lugia is clearly superior stat and move wise.


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## Abigail (May 1, 2009)

Mewtwo is far more awesome. /fanboy


But yeah, Mewtwo rapes.


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## Shirō Kazami (May 1, 2009)

Carsul said:


> Lugia is clearly superior stat and move wise.



Epic failure. They both have a base stat total of 680.


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## Tiocfaidh ?r l? (May 1, 2009)

Ahahaha, just realized how much more Mewtwo gets raped than I thought.  Psychic attacks against Psychic pokemon HALVES the damage.  Also Psychic is a special attack and Lugia has one of the highest special defenses in the game.  Aeroblast has a power ranking of 100 compared to to Psychic's power ranking of only 90.  AND Aeroblast has in increased chance of a critical hit.  Mewtwo get's shit on pretty much.


So I came across this



Jugglenaut said:


> Epic failure. They both have a base stat total of 680.



YO DAWG I HERD YOU LIKE REP SO I PUT A NEG IN YUR NEG SO YOU CAN FAIL WHILE YOU FAIL

Pokemon's base stats posted online are based on AVERAGES.  If you catch two level 10 pidgeys there base stats are NOT going to be the same.  Lugia has higher stats on _*average*_.  And my point still stands that he has a better move base that plays well to Mewtwo's weaknesses.


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## Shirō Kazami (May 1, 2009)

> Pokemon's base stats posted online are based on AVERAGES. If you catch two level 10 pidgeys there base stats are NOT going to be the same. Lugia has higher stats on average.


So where's this proof that Lugia has higher stats on average? 
Your opinion? 

Hint for retards: IVs are completely random.


Last time I checked, 680 base average = 680 average. Derp.


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## Tiocfaidh ?r l? (May 1, 2009)

Jugglenaut said:


> So where's this proof that Lugia has higher stats on average?
> Your opinion?
> 
> Hint for retards: IVs are completely random.
> ...



You are forgetting effort values and since one can catch Lugia at a lower level (40) by the time it gets to the level you catch wild Mewtwo (60 something?) the same level Lugia is stronger because of the effort points.  This is why the Pokemon we raise from a lower level are stronger.

Regardless of stats, Lugia is the clear victor because Mewtwo's strongest attack is halved because of Lugia's type, while Lugia can use his best attack (aeroblast) and give normal damage.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 1, 2009)

You're actually using game mechanics in a debate? Why the hell?


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## Shirō Kazami (May 1, 2009)

Carsul said:


> You are forgetting effort values and since one can catch Lugia at a lower level (40) by the time it gets to the level you catch wild Mewtwo (60 something?) the same level Lugia is stronger because of the effort points.  This is why the Pokemon we raise from a lower level are stronger.



LOL AT USING EVS AS AN EXCUSE. 
Guess what, I can give Mewtwo the same 510 EVs that Lugia has by training it too. LOL at levels making a difference before 100.

At least if you're going to argue game mechanics, get them RIGHT.

Derp.


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## The World (May 1, 2009)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> You're actually using game mechanics in a debate? Why the hell?



Everybody has been apparently in this thread.


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## Tiocfaidh ?r l? (May 1, 2009)

Jugglenaut said:


> LOL AT USING EVS AS AN EXCUSE.
> Guess what, I can give Mewtwo the same 510 EVs that Lugia has by training it too. LOL at levels making a difference before 100.
> 
> At least if you're going to argue game mechanics, get them RIGHT.
> ...



Yes, so eventually Mewtwo can catch up to Lugia in total stats but Lugia is stronger on average because you can raise it from a lower level.  Thank you for proving my point.  Unfortunately I can not find an official guide online at the moment, so we both might have to agree to disagree.  

And again, like I said before, even if we gave _Mewtwo_ slightly higher stats Lugia would _still_ win.  Mewtwo's psychic attack is ineffective compared to Lugia's aeroblast.  Also, sometimes it comes down to the person who get's the first attack.



Roxxas said:


> Everybody has been apparently in this thread.



OP says ALL media.  DERP.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 1, 2009)

Carsul said:


> Lugia looks much more impressive IMO.  Faster, *and his aeroblast looks much more devastating than Mewtwo's attacks.*  (6:16 of second video).
> 
> Lugia wins


Motherfukin planet storm. Where was Lugia during that shit? Hiding? Mewtwo did with the wave of a hand what an imbalance between the great birds did over time. Really...




			
				Roxxas said:
			
		

> Everybody has been apparently in this thread.


I still say why the hell!?


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## Tiocfaidh ?r l? (May 1, 2009)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Motherfukin planet storm. Where was Lugia during that shit? Hiding? Mewtwo did with the wave of a hand what an imbalance between the great birds did over time. Really...




What planet storm are you referring to? Clip please.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 1, 2009)

The one he was gonna wipe all life off the planet with. You know, the whole plot of the movie.


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## Tiocfaidh ?r l? (May 1, 2009)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> The one he was gonna wipe all life off the planet with. You know, the whole plot of the movie.



No I don't know.  Burden of proof is still on you.  If you can't provide a clip or a wiki entry about this so called "planet storm", then I accept your concession


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## Shiron (May 1, 2009)

Carsul said:
			
		

> Yes, so eventually Mewtwo can catch up to Lugia in total stats but Lugia is stronger on average because you can raise it from a lower level. Thank you for proving my point. Unfortunately I can not find an official guide online at the moment, so we both might have to agree to disagree.
> 
> And again, like I said before, even if we gave _Mewtwo_ slightly higher stats Lugia would _still_ win. Mewtwo's psychic attack is ineffective compared to Lugia's aeroblast. Also, sometimes it comes down to the person who get's the first attack.


Jugglenaut is correct on this though; it doesn't matter at all when you apply effort values. They will still have the same exact effect of adding 1 stat point for every 4 EVs, regardless of when you use them. Thus, IVs and EVs don't matter at all, as they can both get the same. Mewtwo and Lugia both have access to the same 510 EVs and the same maximum of 31 IVs in a stat, so their existence doesn't change anything.

He's also correct in saying that they have the same Base Stat total; they even have the same exact values for their stats, only switched around:
Texts From Last Night
Texts From Last Night

And no, base stat's are not "averages." Base stats are the values that the game uses to determine the stats of a particular species of Pokemon; the final stats a Pokemon will have are base on the base stats, with the nature, EVs, and IVs factored in. If you want the formula for how stats are determined, just read the first section of this article:
Link removed

Now then, it's true that Mewtwo and Lugia have the same BST. However, Mewtwo's stat distribution is a bit better, having an overall rating of 2146 compared to Lugia's 1606 when the stas are plugged in:
Link removed

However, that doesn't mean that Mewtwo would be more likely to win; it just means that it has stats in places that will be more beneficial more often over time; it's possible for individual cases to vary though and not quite go the way the rating would suggest, so it's best to analyze the stats themselves and see what they suggest. 

Looking at their stats, Mewtwo has the same Special Attack as Lugia has Special Defense, so not much headway would be made there (although Mewtwo can use Choice Specs, whereas there is no Choice item for Special Defense). Lugia has the advantage when it comes to the physical side, having more defense than Mewtwo has Attack. So, it seems that Lugia would have the advantage based on that, and stall Mewtwo out.

However, this is when the actual moves and speed of the Pokemon come into play, which make it not quite work out that way. Mewtwo is much faster than Lugia. It also has access to the move Taunt. Since Lugia's offenses aren't really it's great asset, it's more forced to used stalling tactics, using things thing Toxic and Whirlwind combined with entry hazards to defeat things. However, Taunt stops such moves. Those moves removed, Lugia has to rely on its mediocre (by Uber standars) offensive abilities. When it comes to offense though, as pointed out, Mewtwo is quite clearly superior. Therefore, the battle would most likely go to Mewtwo.


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## Onomatopoeia (May 1, 2009)

> Regardless of stats, Lugia is the clear victor because Mewtwo's strongest attack is halved because of Lugia's type, while Lugia can use his best attack (aeroblast) and give normal damage.



Type advantages are unique to the game. They are essentially meaningless in the show and movies. 

Psychic attacks can hurt Dark pokemon for instance. Ghost attacks can hurt normals. Electric attacks are notorious for being able to rape the shit out of ground Pokemon.

Mewtwo is an obscenely powerful psychic type pokemon and the fact that Lugia is part psychic will have no effect whatsoever on the fact that Mewtwo would rape the shit out of it.

Lugia uses Aerobeam? Mewtwo dodges it. Assuming he doesn't put up a shield. See, the difference between Aerobeam and Psychic is that Aerobeam is a beam. It can be dodged. Psychic can not be dodged.


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## mystictrunks (May 1, 2009)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Motherfukin planet storm. Where was Lugia during that shit?



It hadn't been created yet.


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## Tiocfaidh ?r l? (May 1, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Type advantages are unique to the game. They are essentially meaningless in the show and movies.



WRONG.  In the anime, the only reason why Pikachu beat Onyx in the first gym was because the sprinkler system went off.  Also, When Ash is battling the trainer with the Dragonite (at the end of the Orange Islands?) Brock CLEARLY states the importance of type advantage.  However, he notes that Ash hasn't been training his pikachu for as long as the other trainer's Pokemon, so a type difference won't be the deciding factor.  I can provide clips if need be but it's going to take me a while to find them  It should be quite clear to anyone who's watched multiple seasons of the anime how type advantages played a factor.



Onomatopoeia said:


> Electric attacks are notorious for being able to rape the shit out of ground Pokemon.


Clips please.  Or at least explain what battle(s) you are referring to.




Onomatopoeia said:


> Mewtwo is an obscenely powerful psychic type pokemon and the fact that Lugia is part psychic will have no effect whatsoever on the fact that Mewtwo would rape the shit out of it.


Lugia is half psychic and is ALSO obscenely powerful.  

For one,watch the full clip which I already linked to in a previous post.  

Also, here's some additional info: I have an interest in seeing rating statistics
The three legendary birds balance out the Earth's climate and Lugia is even more powerful than them.  He is the guardian of the sea.



Onomatopoeia said:


> Lugia uses Aerobeam? Mewtwo dodges it.


Well, he probably will dodge quite a few.  See longer explanation a little further down.



Onomatopoeia said:


> Assuming he doesn't put up a shield.



Lugia can put up a shield as well.  Re watch the Lugia clip.  He puts it up for a short time during that fight.



Onomatopoeia said:


> See, the difference between Aerobeam and Psychic is that Aerobeam is a beam. It can be dodged. Psychic can not be dodged.



Regardless of whether or not Psychic can be "dodged" it is not effective against other legendary Psychic Pokemon.  See Mew's battle against Mewtwo.  Why is that Mewtwo didn't just crush Mew with Psychic?  Because Mew is too close to his own level.  Now, where is your proof that Mew is  a more powerful psychic than Lugia?  

Also, if someone was to calc aerobeam's speed from the movie clip of Lugia's fight it would be VERY fast.  In Mewtwo's fight (I do realize that Mew was just playing around) Mew got hit by a MUCH slower traveling shadow ball.  Just from comparing the two clips one can see that Lugia can not only travel faster but his aeroblast travels faster than Mewtwo's attacks.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 1, 2009)

Carsul said:


> No I don't know.  Burden of proof is still on you.  If you can't provide a clip or a wiki entry about this so called "planet storm", then I accept your concession



I hate you for making me sift through this... I actually had to watch them to find the times!
I have an interest in seeing rating statistics
Mewtwo waving his hand to make the storm at 7:22-8:33
myth on the storm at 9:40
I have an interest in seeing rating statistics
Mewtwo declares his intentions at 6:44

He also rewound time at the end of the movie and loves shadowball, an anti-psychic attack since you love game mechanics.


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## Onomatopoeia (May 1, 2009)

Carsul said:


> In the anime, the only reason why Pikachu beat Onyx in the first gym was because the sprinkler system went off.



Onyx is a ground type. Water or no there's no way Pikachu could have beaten it if type advantages held any meaning. 




> Brock CLEARLY states the importance of type advantage.



An importance that can be discarded at a moment's notice, only being observed for particularly dramatic purposes.



> Clips please.  Or at least explain what battle(s) you are referring to.



Lookie lookie

Notice how that Ground type was defeated by an electric attack.
If type advantages had any meaning Rhydon would have ignored that attack altogether.


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## Onomatopoeia (May 1, 2009)

Does Lugia have any psychic abilities for Mewtwo to outclass in the first place?


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 1, 2009)

Aokiji said:


> Proof     ?


Did you ever see Lugia make a storm like Mewtwo did? How about fight another powerful psychic while supressing 40 other pokemon's powers?



Onomatopoeia said:


> Does Lugia have any psychic abilities for Mewtwo to outclass in the first place?


Yes, he used a psychic shield multiple times. And talked.


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## RAGING BONER (May 1, 2009)

MewTwo rapes...wanna know why?

nothing to do with powers at all, both of which are top tier...rather their intelligence is what matters, of which MewTwo is certainly far above Lugia.

Mew2 will outsmart Lugia in any number of ways in accordance with his godlike IQ.


Also, Mew2 is the most violent and savage of ALL pokemon...he is basically perma bloodlust, while all Lugia does is sleep at the bottom of the seas.


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## Tiocfaidh ?r l? (May 1, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Onyx is a ground type. Water or no there's no way Pikachu could have beaten it if type advantages held any meaning.



here)

First off, he's rock/ground.  

Second off, he beat Onyx_ because of the sprinklers _( as I already stated).  That was the whole point of the sprinklers going off - getting Onyx soaken wet.  It was the first point in the series that illustrated the disadvantages of being being the wrong type for your opponent. Pikachu was losing (because of his type disadvantage) and the water allowed the electricity to conduct through Onyx better, just barely giving Pikachu the win.



Onomatopoeia said:


> An importance that can be discarded at a moment's notice, only being observed for particularly dramatic purposes.



It's actually prevalent multiple times throughout the series and is consistent with game mechanics to a degree if you actually think about it.  A pokemon that's been trained for much longer (say a level 60) is going to beat a  relatively new pokemon (say a level 35) even if it has a type disadvantage.  However, when two pokemon in the series face each other, and its not made obvious that one of the trainer's pokemon is _much_ stronger, type advantage does play a role. 

Another example that comes to mind is Sabrina, the psychic trainer stating her dominance over fighting pokemon.  Again, I again try to find clips if necessary ^.^ Will take me a while though considering I'm already responding to three people.  ANOTHER example that comes to mind is his how the creators emphasized electrics strength over water in Ash's battle against Misty.




Onomatopoeia said:


> here
> 
> Notice how that Ground type was defeated by an electric attack.
> If type advantages had any meaning Rhydon would have ignored that attack altogether.



STRAWMANNNNNNN
  Did you even, like, WATCH the clip.  The ONLY reason why Pikachu won is because the horn acted like a lightning rod.  The creators of the series even explicitly had Ash's foe state 'HA, lightning attacks won't work."  Ground's dominance over lightning attacks wasn't ignored in ANY way.  In both examples of pikachu beating a ground or rock pokemon there was some extraneous factor as to why he won (the sprinkler system, the "lightning rod")  These elements would not have even been added into the fight if the series creators were ignoring the element chart.

You have yet to provide a valid example of the element chart being ignored in any way.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 1, 2009)

~RAGING BONER~ said:


> nothing to do with powers at all, both of which are top tier...



Top tier? Really? You saying they could fight with Arceus evenly?


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## The World (May 1, 2009)

Carsul said:


> OP says ALL media.  DERP.



I wasn't being sarcastic. DERP.


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## Onomatopoeia (May 1, 2009)

Fact: Onyx is a ground type. 
Fact: Ground types are immune to electrical attacks.
Fact: Using a water attack and then using and electric attack does not make Onix suddenly vulnerable to electrical attacks.
Conclusion: Type advantages are only observed when the anime wants to observe them.

Rhydon the same. Lightning rod? WTF is that shit. Hell, the game itself even discredited that one with the Lightning Rod ability.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 1, 2009)

Mewtwo uses Shadow Ball!
It's super effective!
Lugia has fainted! 
/thread

I can pull the weakness crap too! Wanna address what Mewtwo did in the movie at some point instead of going down this lame path?


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## Tiocfaidh ?r l? (May 1, 2009)

Argument ad Nauseum


Onomatopoeia said:


> Fact: Onyx is a ground type.
> Fact: Ground types are immune to electrical attacks.




1. HES A ROCK AND GROUND DERP Source)

2. In the anime, they chose to portray rock/ground and ground as being strong (as opposed to being completely immune) to electric types.  In no way did the creators throw the element chart out the window.  This is in fact, may be the only part of the element wheel they modified for the sake of making the anime more interesting. 



Onomatopoeia said:


> Fact: Using a water attack and then using and electric attack does not make Onix suddenly vulnerable to electrical attacks.



 .  In the anime ground pokemon are STRONG against electric, not completely immune.  Water conducts electricity.  The water on Onyx increased the electric shock of Pikachu's attack.  It's not that hard to understand. 




Onomatopoeia said:


> Conclusion: Type advantages are only observed when the anime wants to observe them.


Which is consistently throughout the series, with a few moments that the animators forsake the element chart to make the battles more interesting.



Onomatopoeia said:


> Rhydon the same. Lightning rod? WTF is that shit.



Watch the clip again.  Eventually it will sink again.  

By the way, I accept your concession


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## Onomatopoeia (May 1, 2009)

> 1. HES A ROCK AND GROUND DERP sasunaru fluffy)



That is not in any way relevant so I intentionally neglected to mention it. DERP.



> In the anime, they chose to portray rock/ground and ground as being strong (as opposed to being completely immune) to electric types



In other words they intentionally deviate from the element chart. See? I was right.



> This is in fact, may be the only part of the element wheel they modified for the sake of making the anime more interesting.



Johto. The Ghost gym leader chick. Gengar used Shadow Ball on Team Rocket's normal type Meowth. It worked.


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## Tiocfaidh ?r l? (May 1, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> -snip-



You didn't prove your argument in any way whatsoever.  As already stated, the animators chose to modify small portions of the element chart in order to make certain episodes more interesting.  You said earlier that the element wheel was only important in game mechanics.  That is simply not true.  It appears consistently throughout the series with a few exceptions and a few modifications (making electric weak to ground instead of completely useless).  It is even stressed at certain points by having Pokemon need to use the environment to their advantage to overcome type differences.

Since you have nothing further to add I have other points to look at =)



Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> I hate you for making me sift through this... I actually had to watch them to find the times!
> Newsmax
> Mewtwo waving his hand to make the storm at 7:22-8:33



Decent casual feat - creating large waves in the sea and summoning thunderclouds.  Unfortunately we don't know how terrible a storm a serious Mewtwo could unleash.  Also, Lugia could probably fly in such a storm easier than Mewtwo himself.  

Furthermore, the storms from Articuno and the other birds were more impressive.  Here is the clip: Link removed.  Lugia is almost as powerful as the three legendary birds combined.



Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> He also rewound time at the end of the movie and loves shadowball, an anti-psychic attack since you love game mechanics.



Well that would do some good damage if it hit.  Unfortunately, I am not good at calcs but it seems like Mewtwo might have a hard time hitting him based on Lugia's flying speed.  He was avoiding attacks from three flying legendaries at the same time while fighting back.  I don't even think he'd get hit more than once.

Mewtwo's most impressive feat so far which would could possibly give him an edge is his manipulation of time.  However, one can question why he didn't use it in his battle against Mew if it could be used to win a battle situation so easily.

Addressing the "prophecy" of Mewtwo bringing about the end of the world - the same was said to happen if the balance wasn't restored between Articuno, Moltres, and Zapdos.  That's besides the fact that it's just a prophecy and doesn't offer and hard evidence for Mewtwo's or the bird's respective strengths.



Onomatopoeia said:


> What I said was "The anime only follows the elemental chart when it wants to". See watch:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm going to follow the advice from your user title and accept your concession


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## Onomatopoeia (May 1, 2009)

What I said was "The anime only follows the elemental chart when it wants to". See watch:



Onomatopoeia said:


> Type advantages are only observed when the anime wants to observe them.



True I did say it was unique to the game, but I went on to say they were "essentially" meaningless in the show. The "essentially" part means that while it is not set in stone it is effectively true unless a bit of drama needs to be injected into the formula.

In other words, I'm still right.


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## Azure Flame Fright (May 1, 2009)

Carsul said:


> WRONG.  In the anime, the only reason why Pikachu beat Onyx in the first gym was because the sprinkler system went off.



Remember just before that?

When Brock used his Geodude?

The one Ash's Pikachu raped with one Thundershock?

It's a ground type.


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## Darth Nihilus (May 1, 2009)

This thread has become hilarious.


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## Tiocfaidh ?r l? (May 2, 2009)

Azure Flame Kite said:


> Remember just before that?
> 
> When Brock used his Geodude?
> 
> ...



Was that before or after he was RAPED by Brock's rock/ground pokemon the first time around?


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## Darth Nihilus (May 2, 2009)

Before or after Brock's father had helped Ash's Pikachu increase in strength and power to help combat against Brock's Pokemon?


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## Tiocfaidh ?r l? (May 2, 2009)

It's super effective!! Wait a second.....It doesn't do anything at all...well very little.  What's your fav perfume or cologne? (Episode 5 Part 1 6:18)

At the beginning of episode 5 part 2, Ash is super-charging his Pikachu.  A little further in Misty comments "stubborn, it would be a lot easier if he used some of mine too."  DURR.  I wonder what she was was hinting at.  Misty = water trainer.  Water = strong against ground/rock.

Episode 5, part 2 1:32 - Look how much Pikachu was super-charged.  Obviously a normal electric Pokemon wouldn't do any more damage to onyx than Pikachu did in his first encounter.  This is the length Ash had to go to win.  Again, illustrating that it is very difficult to overcome the type difference.  

Episode 5 part 2 2:30 - Brock explicitly states "Bad strategy.  Don't you know that flying Pokemon are weak against rock types."

Episode 5 part 2 3:10 - Pikachu one shots Geodude.  Do you know why?  It's not that hard to understand.  To put into "game terms"  that would be like the equivalent of a level 40 Pokemon beating a level 20 Pokemon even though it's weak against it's type.  Pikachu was "super-charged."  In the anime ground Pokemon are not immune to electric attacks; they are just weak against it.  The extremely high level of voltage was able to overcome this type difference.  It's really not that hard to understand.  I don't think the creators decided to explicitly reference the element wheel a minute previously only to totally ignore it later in the fight.  

Episode 5 part 2 3:36 Pikachu has so much electricity he can't even control it.  It BARELY hurts onyx.  

Episode 5 part 2 4:20 Pikachu is STILL getting raped.  In their second encounter.  While being supercharged.  Brock orders Onyx to stop in order to prevent Pikachu from getting knocked out.

Episode 5 part 2 4:48 "ASH, Rock Pokemon are weakened by water!" (Oh shi-)

6:10 "Winning the match because of that wouldn't prove anything."

Do I really need to continue?   The element wheel is obviously shown throughout the series (especially in this battle and Misty's).

The element wheel referenced in the manga: What's your fav perfume or cologne?

Pokemon type does transfer from game mechanics, hence the element in the attacks used against each other will play an important role in this match up between Lugia and Mewtwo.



Darth Nihilus said:


> Before or after Brock's father had helped Ash's Pikachu increase in strength and power to help combat against Brock's Pokemon?



Which is exactly my point.  The creators of the series made it clear that it would take a super-charged electric Pokemon in addition to changes in the environment (the sprinklers going off) in order to overcome a type difference.  If the creators did not want to make the element wheel important they likely wouldn't have bothered with Pikachu losing the first time and his subsequent super-charging.  They certainly wouldn't have added in the twist with the sprinkler system.


----------



## Darth Nihilus (May 2, 2009)

Or that Pikachu was strong enough to take on ground type Pokemon, just not all Ground types in general, aka Onix since he was stronger than Geodude, making him more of a challenge for Pikachu to overcome, that and thanks to the sprinklers.


----------



## Chibi kitsune (May 2, 2009)

Mew2 wins no matter how you look at it

Anime/Movie standards
Mew is said to be the most powerful pokemon, the then clone it and make it way stronger, that's mew2.

Games wise
going by the moves they can learn
Mew2 rapes with a huge amount of moves that are super effective

going by moves they learn without tm
he can use guard swap to make his defense and sp. defense high while lowering lugias

should lugia use aerobeams mew2 can just use me first, which basically makes lugia take the same hit but as if it were supereffective

only one I'm not sure about if the manga versions


----------



## Tiocfaidh ?r l? (May 2, 2009)

Chibi kitsune said:


> Mew2 wins no matter how you look at it



Okay, let's take a look at your argument.



Chibi kitsune said:


> Anime/Movie standards-
> Mew is said to be the most powerful pokemon,


Was never stated or implied



Chibi kitsune said:


> the then clone it and _*make it way stronger*_, that's mew2.


Proof please.   




Chibi kitsune said:


> only one I'm not sure about if the manga versions



You are not sure about anything from the looks of it


----------



## Chibi kitsune (May 2, 2009)

Carsul said:


> Was never stated or implied
> 
> 
> Proof please.


could've sworn they said both in the game and movie, but it has been ages, especially about mew supposedly being the strongest pokemon 



Carsul said:


> You are not sure about anything from the looks of it


same could be said about you


----------



## skiboydoggy (May 2, 2009)

So Mewtwo rapes across all media, right? Right.
In game terms? Almost everyone will prefer using Mewtwo. Choice Specs or one shot of Nasty Plot and it basically becomes the best sweeper in the game, although in the Uber environment everybody and his cousin resists Psychic.
Manga? Lugia got taken down by Pryce's Delibird, and Pryce wasn't even there. Mewtwo needed Red's entire force and a Master Ball to capture, and Mewtwo didn't even take any damage.
Anime? Mewtwo was going to destroy the world, and all the trainers invited could do absolutely nothing to it. Lugia? No such glory.


----------



## Chibi kitsune (May 2, 2009)

Mew2 tends to do fairly well against other ubers
Lugia struggles with many regular types, his flying type hurts him more than it helps


----------



## Darth Nihilus (May 2, 2009)

skiboydoggy said:


> So Mewtwo rapes across all media, right? Right.
> In game terms? Almost everyone will prefer using Mewtwo. Choice Specs or one shot of Nasty Plot and it basically becomes the best sweeper in the game, although in the Uber environment everybody and his cousin resists Psychic.
> Manga? Lugia got taken down by Pryce's Delibird, and Pryce wasn't even there. Mewtwo needed Red's entire force and a Master Ball to capture, and Mewtwo didn't even take any damage.
> Anime? Mewtwo was going to destroy the world, and all the trainers invited could do absolutely nothing to it. Lugia? No such glory.



In this situation, I hate it when you're right.


----------



## Chibi kitsune (May 2, 2009)

what did they do with mew2 after catching it?

is red like the best trainer ever now?


----------



## skiboydoggy (May 2, 2009)

Chibi kitsune said:


> what did they do with mew2 after catching it?
> 
> is red like the best trainer ever now?


Red caught Mewtwo _because_ he was the best trainer ever. And by the end of the Sevii Islands arc? He commands the respect of Mewtwo and Deoxys, meaning if he ever decided to go batshit, the whole world would basically end.


----------



## mystictrunks (May 2, 2009)

Isn't Red 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 dead


----------



## skiboydoggy (May 2, 2009)

mystictrunks said:


> Isn't Red
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



Nope. He gets turned to stone, then we jump to the Emerald arc, where Emerald is trying to get Jirachi. Guess what his wish is?


----------



## Tranquil Fury (May 2, 2009)

Alakazam has an IQ of 5,000 which is like a Supercomputer, Mewtwo eats Alakazam with his sheer psychic power which means he can think faster than a Super Computer.In Tournaments I've heard he's banned.Mewtwo has more moves than Lugia and his are better.When did Lugia erase someone's memories?Can Lugia teleport?Can Lugia supress the powers of 40 pokemon?


----------



## dwabn (May 2, 2009)

lugia is far more badass and would win (tho im a bias fanboy on this matter)


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 2, 2009)

Carsul said:


> Decent casual feat - creating large waves in the sea and summoning thunderclouds.  Unfortunately we don't know how terrible a storm a serious Mewtwo could unleash.  Also, Lugia could probably fly in such a storm easier than Mewtwo himself.


That casual feat is well above anything Lugia ever dreamed of. And Lugia being able to fly in it wasn't the point. The point is Mewtwo had the power to do that with his mind! And his powers aren't even fully tapped! Are you begining to grasp the scope of his powers?  



> Furthermore, the storms from Articuno and the other birds were more impressive.


They didn't make that storm, the imbalance between their powers changed the current which created the storm. Mewtwo made that storm to destroy all life with his mind alone.




> Well that would do some good damage if it hit.  Unfortunately, I am not good at calcs but it seems like Mewtwo might have a hard time hitting him based on Lugia's flying speed.  He was avoiding attacks from three flying legendaries at the same time while fighting back.  I don't even think he'd get hit more than once.


Game mechaincs 100% accuracy lulz. Check out the damage Mewtwo did with his unfocused power.
act like a mod
You really think Lugia is tanking hits from that?



> Mewtwo's most impressive feat so far which would could possibly give him an edge is his manipulation of time.  However, one can question why he didn't use it in his battle against Mew if it could be used to win a battle situation so easily.


I'm gonna assume it took effort he couldn't spare when he was fighting Mew. Besides he wanted to beat Mew in a straight fight.





			
				Tranquil Fury said:
			
		

> Lugia teleport?


IIRC Mewtwo never used teleport.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (May 2, 2009)

^You sure?I have'nt played in a while but should'nt he know Teleport like Mew?


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 2, 2009)

I don't remember him using it in the movies which is the only media I am using seriously. I'm sure he can learn it in the games but since I've been ridiculing their use, yeah...


----------



## Tranquil Fury (May 2, 2009)

I think Ill watch Mewtwo's return, he'll have more feats there I suppose.


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 2, 2009)

Sadly he had better feats in Mewtwo Strikes Back... He had his hands tied for most of Mewtwo Returns. He did however say he was twice as powerful.


----------



## SmashSk8er (May 2, 2009)

In Return he has good feats. He move's the lake under the mountain and then erases the memory of Team Rocket.


----------



## Tiocfaidh ?r l? (May 2, 2009)

skiboydoggy said:


> So Mewtwo rapes across all media, right? Right.


Wrong.  He might hold a slight advantage in the game version as explained by Æsahættr (Post #33). In the movie versions, Lugia has the superior feats shown on screen.  (This is shown further down in this post).  The manga version is as close as the game version.


skiboydoggy said:


> In game terms? Almost everyone will prefer using Mewtwo.


Let's assume for a second you had proof that "most" people prefer using Mewtwo
That is still an Ad Populum fallacy.  Nice try though.


skiboydoggy said:


> Choice Specs or one shot of Nasty Plot and it basically becomes the best sweeper in the game, although in the Uber environment everybody and his cousin resists Psychic.


I'm not even going to bother getting further into the debate on which Pokemon would win in a game battle.  Both are uber and either one can win depending on various factors (i.e. whether or not Mewtwo causes Paralyze when using Thunder; whether or not Aeroblast hits critically; whether or not Lugia has recover and if he has leftovers).


skiboydoggy said:


> Manga? Lugia got taken down by Pryce's Delibird, and Pryce wasn't even there. Mewtwo needed Red's entire force and a Master Ball to capture, and Mewtwo didn't even take any damage.


Mewtwo DID take damage from Blaine's rapidash.  Here is the manga chapter:  .   Also, Red's team was still young at that point ,yet his premature team was enough to capture Mewtwo.


skiboydoggy said:


> Lugia got taken down by Pryce's Delibird, and Pryce wasn't even there.



What chapter was this again?



skiboydoggy said:


> Anime? Mewtwo was going to destroy the world, and all the trainers invited could do absolutely nothing to it.


I don't see your point.  Mew also has the power to destroy the world.  So does Lugia.  The only difference is that Lugia and Mew wouldn't want to do such a thing.  None of them have actual feats of "destroying" the world anyways, so it's just pointless speculation.  We need to look at hard feats and compare the two to see who would win.


skiboydoggy said:


> Lugia? No such glory.


See above

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now if we look at their actual feats from the movies: 

Here is a clip from Lugia's appearance in Pokemon 2000: War of the God's: 

1:47 - Lugia creates a huge vortex (Mewtwo makes a similar looking, but smaller, vortex with Psybeam in the manga). ).
2:29 -2:35 - Dodging attacks from zapdos, moltres, and articuno (all the while flying much faster than the speed Mewtwo has ever displayed)
2:44 -2:52 - Water vortex again  (can't think of the name of the attack off the top of my head)
3:00 - Breaks out of articuno's ice effortlessly
3:35 - Shields himself to block the birds' attacks (Mewtwo probably has a stronger shield but Lugia flies considerably faster, so he can just dodge Mewtwo's attacks anyways.  Nor does Lugia rely on his shield heavily in character).
3:38 - Considerable durability.  Tanks attacks from all three birds without dying (although he is knocked out for a short period of time)
4:10 - Lugia uses recover? (Not 100 percent sure.  Don't remember the movie perfectly and don't have time to watch all of it).
4:46 - Shield
6:15 - 6:21 Aeroblast.  (I can easily see Mewtwo getting hit by this attack based on the speed he's shown)
----------------------------------------------------
Mewtwo's feats from a clip of Mewtwo Strikes Back (also titled Pokemon: The First Movie)


0 -1:00 Consists of Mewtwo using his telekinetic powers to cause explosions in the research facility
1:32 Mewtwo's shadow ball (It is definitely formed faster than Lugia's aeroblast but it travels much slower.  I don't really think Lugia will have a hard time dodging it at all). 
1:56 - 2:05 Mewtwo and Mew flying around.  Seems to me like Lugia is faster.
2:22 - Mew takes a hit from shadowball and is perfectly fine

Another feat from a second clip of Mewtwo strikes back:


7:22-8:33 - Casually summoning thunderclouds and making large waves 
(I've already addressed this once, but I'll comment on it again -  We have no idea how large of a storm Mewtwo could create if he was going all out.  It probably isn't even that effective in combat seeing how he didn't use his manipulation of the weather against Mew.  I.E., he didn't rip the roof off the stadium with huge gusts of wind.  It seems to me like Mewtwo's best attacks in actual combat have nothing to do with his manipulation of the weather.  Furthermore, in order to create a large enough storm to hurt Lugia he'd have to put himself in the middle of such a storm, putting himself in danger).



Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> He also rewound time at the end of the movie and loves shadowball, an anti-psychic attack since you love game mechanics.


There is no indication at all that Mewtwo can just send a high level psychic Pokemon back in time in the middle of a battle.  Also, Mew got hit by shadowball and tanked it fine.  It will obviously do damage to Lugia but he should be able to tank a couple shadowballs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now if we compare the feats between the movie versions:

Lugia is obviously faster, has amazing evasive abilties, and has a ranged attack that travels through the air faster (aeroblast).  He also has a mediocre shield.

Mewtwo can also fly, albeit not as fast.  His shield is very strong but I doubt it could tank aeroblast so he'd have to do his best to avoid it.  He can pop off shadowball's in quick succession with no charge time.  However,  they don't travel as fast as aeroblast and should be easily dodged by Lugia (seeing as how Lugia can dodge attacks from three flying legendaries at once).  His psybeam and psychic attacks can be dismissed as he didn't use them against Mew.  The simplest assumption is that these psychic abilities won't work against another Psychic of his own caliber.

    Based on the actual feats from the movies and not using hyperbole (omg, I'm so powerful I can destroy the world with a wave of my hand), Lugia is the clear victor between the movie versions.


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 2, 2009)

Did you see Mewtwo level the buildings? I bet you didn't even though I linked it. Did you see him flying after Giovanni's mansion got leveled? It was faster than anything Lugia managed. Mewtwo displayed FAR more power than Lugia, it's really a joke to compair them. Really, watch what Mewtwo did at the start of the movie and imagine what he could really do if he wanted and this is Mewtwo at his weakest no less.


----------



## Darth Nihilus (May 2, 2009)

The best feat we've seen outside of calming storms would be using Aeroblast to destroy the building that Lawrence was in, or supposedly it was Aeroblast. I haven't gotten to see its feats in the manga, outside of Lugia causing massive damage throughout the underwater lair of Team Rocket, which still doesn't compare to what Mewtwo has done. 

Mewtwo wins overall.


----------



## skiboydoggy (May 2, 2009)

Carsul said:


> Wrong.  He might hold a slight advantage in the game version as explained by ?sah?ttr (Post #33). In the movie versions, Lugia has the superior feats shown on screen.  (This is shown further down in this post).  The manga version is as close as the game version.
> 
> Let's assume for a second you had proof that "most" people prefer using Mewtwo
> That is still an Ad Populum fallacy.  Nice try though.



Don't bother using Ad Populus when the Pokemon tier lists are separated into Overused, Underused, and Never Used. People's opinions obviously do matter, and Mewtwo holds the advantage with its incredible offensive ability second only to Attack Form Deoxys, which has the disadvantage of dying to everything.



> Mewtwo DID take damage from Blaine's rapidash.  Here is the manga chapter:  Link removed.   Also, Red's team was still young at that point ,yet his premature team was enough to capture Mewtwo.



Red's team was still young? This is Pokemon fucking League Champion Red. At that point in time he was already the best Trainer in the world bar _none_. Even the Elite Four had to cheapshot him.



> What chapter was this again?



It was one of the Gold/Silver chapters, I can't remember which one it is right now without the books on hand. Probably VS Delibird or something.



> I don't see your point.  Mew also has the power to destroy the world.  So does Lugia.  The only difference is that Lugia and Mew wouldn't want to do such a thing.  None of them have actual feats of "destroying" the world anyways, so it's just pointless speculation.  We need to look at hard feats and compare the two to see who would win.



Wrong. Mewtwo can destroy the world and proceeds to do so with his own power. Lugia has to do something funky related to his role as the guardian of the balance of the elements to achieve what Mewtwo can do with pure psychic might.



> Based on the actual feats from the movies and not using hyperbole (omg, I'm so powerful I can destroy the world with a wave of my hand), Lugia is the clear victor between the movie versions.



If only Mewtwo was going all out in his strongest form. Hint: He wasn't.


----------



## Tiocfaidh ?r l? (May 3, 2009)

skiboydoggy said:


> -snip-




As already stated, Lugia's special def. > Mewtwo's special attack and Lugia's def. > Mewtwo's attack.  The stat that actually _does _ give him an edge in this battle is his speed.  

(It is to be noted that in the following description I am referring to the battles from Pokemon stadium.  Also it is important to note that two trainers will never know the move set the opponent is using so it is in part a guessing game trying to figure out the moves of your opponent).

Mewtwo's higher speed will generally allow him to use taunt before Lugia can use any move.  The problem with this tactic is that a CB offensively-built Lugia can easily counter an offensive Mewtwo with taunt.  One simply gives Lugia 3 attack moves,recover, and equips a choice band (this item raises attack by 50%).  Mewtwo is further fucked if taunt only lasts two turns as a level 99 Mewtwo generally can't KO a level 99 Lugia in this amount of turns. Lugia then uses recover, and finishes off Mewtwo with aeroblast.  

Choice-Band Lugia counter to Mewtwo:
Moveset
Aeroblast
Earthquake
Shadowball
Recover
Equipped with
Choice Band
Ev's
116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spe 

This type of Lugia will beat Mewtwo the majority of the time.  The reason you don't see it often is because this setup leads it to a quick loss against many other uber Pokemon.  Hence, it wouldn't be the best setup to pick in a stadium match when it's 6 vs 6.  One would be better off using a defensive/stalling Lugia.  

However, _this_ battle that we are discussing based on the OP is based on a hypothetical match between _just_ Lugia and Mewtwo.  Hence, if two stadium players were to face each other they would each equip the best moveset for this particular match.  If Lugia _only_ has to worry about Mewtwo then he can make a moveset to easily counter Mewtwo's moveset.

I am interested to see if anybody has any viable movesets that would work against Lugia on a 1 v. 1 match.  One possible "counter" to a CB Lugia is to equip Mewtwo with choice specs.  However, this prevents Mewtwo from using taunt.  Lugia can then repeatedly use it's stalling and healing skills when necessary.  The best possible counter (that I can think of) for Mewtwo to use against Lugia is the following:

Moveset
Taunt
Calm Mind
Thunder
Shadowball
Equipped
Leftovers

What will generally happen with this setup against CB Lugia: 
Mewtwo will get the first attack because of it's speed and taunt's priority.  Lugia will then use aeroblast.  Mewtwo will then use Calm Mind.  Lugia will use aeroblast again.  Mewtwo will use thunder.  Lugia will use aeroblast (or recover if taunt is over).  Mewtwo will use thunder again.  Lugia will use aeroblast and KO Mewtwo on the fourth hit.

Mewtwo can win the above setup if:  
-Thunder paralyzes Lugia (30% chance of Paralyzation).
-Thunder hits critically multiple times (small chance of this happening)
-Lugia doesn't land any critical hits with aeroblast
-Taunt lasts for 4 turns instead of the minimum 2 & Thunder paralyzes Lugia preventing it from recovering

Lugia can win the above setup if:
-He doesn't get paralyzed by Thunder
-Thunder misses once or multiple times (70% accuracy)
-Aeroblast hits critically _once_.  A 99 CB Lugia can generally KO a 99 Mewtwo in 3 hits when 1 aeroblast lands critically.  In addition, aeroblast has an increased crit. chance
-Taunt only lasts for 2 or 3 turns giving Lugia the option to use recover if need be

There are a lot of factors that could turn the tide in either party's favor but as I said before, a Lugia meant to solely counter Mewtwo holds the slight advantage.  

If a Mewtwo meets a Lugia in a 6v6 stadium battle the opposite holds true, because Lugia will likely have a defensive/stalling build that favors an off. Mewtwo. 



skiboydoggy said:


> Red's team was still young? This is Pokemon fucking League Champion Red.
> 
> At that point in time he was already the best Trainer in the world bar _none_. Even the Elite Four had to cheapshot him.



When was the last time you read the manga?   

Red was _not_the best trainer in the world at the point when he caught Mewtwo.  He was _one of_ the best trainers in _Kanto._  This is _before_ the Indigo Plateau and _before_ the story returned to him again in Pokemon Adventures: FireRed and LeafGreen.  Even at the end of FR/LG, Red is still not the top trainer in the world.

Also it is to be noted that Mewtwo did not take on _all_ of Ash's Pokemon at once.  He took on 6 of Ash's Pokemon with his psybeam.  I have my doubts that he would've been able to beat all 40+ of Ash's Pokemon at the same time.  Here is a scan of Mewtwo using Psybeam on Ash's Pokemon (the funnel).
the snippet about Adam's seventh wife



skiboydoggy said:


> It was one of the Gold/Silver chapters, I can't remember which one it is right now without the books on hand. Probably VS Delibird or something.



You are going to have point out the chapter if you want me (or anyone for that matter) to take your word on this feat.  This feat is not found in "vs. Delibird" or "vs.  Lugia" or "vs Lugia and Ho-Oh."  I'm not spending hours looking for it and since the burden of proof is on the positive, it is your job to find it good sir.



skiboydoggy said:


> Wrong. Mewtwo can destroy the world and proceeds to do so with his own power.



Wrong.

At no point did Mewtwo _ever_ destroy the world or even come _close_ to taking over the entire pokemon world.  The whole point of the clones that he made in the first movie was to aid him in his conquering of the world because he was not strong enough to do so on his own.




skiboydoggy said:


> If only Mewtwo was going all out in his strongest form. Hint: He wasn't.





There is no reason at _all_ to assume that Mewtwo wasn't going all out against Mew.  The battle would play a key factor in who was to rule the pokemon world; the genetically engineered pokemon or the original pokemon.  Mewtwo _knew_ Mew was his equal.  There was absolutely no reason at all for Mewtwo to hold back.  

 He directly states in the following clip that he _was_ using all his power.

the snippet about Adam's seventh wife (Around 1:40)  
"As Mew and I gathered all of our strength for one final confrontation." 

Since Mewtwo was obviously using all of his strength in his battle against Mew we have to carefully observe what feats he displayed in this battle and use it as a main factor to gauge his strength.

The feats that he displayed in this battle as well as his other feats are inferior to Lugia's movies feats as I already explained in post #76.  Hence, Lugia reigns supreme.

Also, sorry for the tl;dr post


----------



## Shirō Kazami (May 3, 2009)

Carsul said:


> Choice-Band Lugia counter to Mewtwo:
> Moveset
> Aeroblast
> Earthquake
> ...




Choice Band with RECOVER? 
Have fun recovering when you're already locked into Aeroblast/Shadow Ball. 

Here's another hint: Aero/Shadow Ball don't get boosted by CB as well.

Banded 252 atk Lugia (hell, I'll even give you Adamant nature for the lulz) Aeroblast to 4/0/0 def Mewtwo: 33.90% - 39.83% 
I WONDER WHY?

If Mewtwo follows your failure of a strategy and CMs after Taunt, Aeroblast does 22.88% - 26.84%. 

Oh yeah, Mewtwo easily 2HKOs with Thunder with/without CM in the first place.

*EPIC FAIL*

I guess I could make any Mewtwo set that specifically counters Lugia, but oh wait, everything already does.


----------



## The six paths of pain (May 3, 2009)

i think mewto would win


----------



## Sasori (May 3, 2009)

This thread is hilarious.

First it starts of with bringing in game mechanics, which I guess is justifiable by the opening post, but meh..

Then it involves people who try to argue game mechanics who do not fully understand them.

Then after the arrival of people that do understand the game mechanics the previous debators are forced to attempt to mix anime feats with game mechanics 

All in all some pretty poor debating in this thread lol


----------



## Tiocfaidh ?r l? (May 3, 2009)

Jugglenaut said:


> -snip-



Maybe you should put more than 30 seconds into your posts 
FAIL

For starters, Aeroblast is a Physical attack, _not_ a special attack It _is _ boosted by choice band.  Secondly, even if Mewtwo _doesn't_ use Calm Mind and spams Thunder (after opening with taunt) he's _still _going to get killed by a CB boosted Aeroblast before Thunder kills Lugia.  Third, it is quite obvious to have a healing move such as Recover on Lugia on a 1 v 1 battle.

I can break this down all nice and neat for when you when I get back, but since you don't bother putting any thought into your replies, I shall do the same for you.











Sasori said:


> This thread is hilarious.



Why don't you get off your high horse and leave the thread if you have nothing intelligent to add.  People always amuse me who come into threads pointing at stupidity solely to raise their own point count.



Sasori said:


> First it starts of with bringing in game mechanics, which I guess is justifiable by the opening post, but meh..


No shit sherlock.  The OP said _all media_

Hence the discussion on which versions of Lugia would win (game, manga, animated) and which version of Mewtwo would win.




Sasori said:


> Then after the arrival of people that do understand the game mechanics the previous debators are forced to attempt to mix anime feats with game mechanics



Did you even,like, _read_ the thread.  Do you understand _why_ game mechanics were brought up in the conversation of animated Lugia vs Mewtwo?  Here's a hint.  The element wheel _clearly_ and _consistently_ appears throughout the animated series (all seasons mind you) and to a lesser extent the movies.  It is also apparent in the manga.  Hence, Lugia would be weaker to ghost type attacks even if we are _not_ talking about the game version.


----------



## Shirō Kazami (May 3, 2009)

Carsul said:


> For starters, Aeroblast is a Physical attack, _not_ a special attack It _is _ boosted by choice band.  Secondly, even if Mewtwo _doesn't_ use Calm Mind and spams Thunder (after opening with taunt) he's _still _going to get killed by a CB boosted Aeroblast before Thunder kills Lugia.  Third, it is quite obvious to have a healing move such as Recover on Lugia on a 1 v 1 battle.




Like I said before, maybe you should know your game mechanics before you try to argue like a dumbass.

A Tale of Two Sisters

I don't see physical anywhere on that page. Instead, I see SPECIAL.

And I like how you still say that CB Lugia can recover when it's going to be locked into an offensive move.
Apparently, you don't even know how Choice items work 

Oh, and since you tricked out a Lugia set in a failed attempt to prove that you could beat standard Mewtwo, I'll just run a standard Specs Thunder Mewtwo which OHKOs your 116/0/0 defense. 


DERP.


----------



## Tiocfaidh ?r l? (May 3, 2009)

Jugglenaut said:


> Like I said before, maybe you should know your game mechanics before you try to argue like a dumbass.
> 
> This One
> 
> I don't see physical anywhere on that page. Instead, I see SPECIAL.



Aeroblast was changed to special in gen 4.  DAWWWW
We are discussing gold/silver lugia and Poke stadium 1 and 2, no?!?



Jugglenaut said:


> And I like how you still say that CB Lugia can recover when it's going to be locked into an offensive move.
> Apparently, you don't even know how Choice items work



That's my fault.  That's what happens when you don't sleep for 24 hours.  Anyway,  CB boosted aeroblast gen II Lugia >standard Mewtwo build.

I will show this to you clearly with plugged in stats once I get a chance, since you don't seem to comprehend.



Jugglenaut said:


> Oh, and since you tricked out a Lugia set in a failed attempt to prove that you could beat standard Mewtwo, I'll just run a standard Specs Thunder Mewtwo which OHKOs your 116/0/0 defense.



 How would you know in advance what build of Lugia I'm going to use.  If you prepare the above build in preparation against Lugia, how do you know I won't have a def. Lugia with leftovers, roost, aeroblast and a special def raising ability.  Thunder has a 30% chance to miss.  Roost will cut down on its damage and heal through it (along with leftovers).  Aeroblast has an amazing crit rate and accuracy.  Lugia would win this scenario about 50% of the time.


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## Shirō Kazami (May 3, 2009)

Carsul said:


> Aeroblast was changed to special in gen 4.  DAWWWW
> We are discussing gold/silver lugia and Poke stadium 1 and 2, no?!?



BAWWW, I guess Choice items and Roost exist in Gen II then.
Nice try.


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## Tiocfaidh ?r l? (May 3, 2009)

Jugglenaut said:


> BAWWW, I guess Choice items and Roost exist in Gen II then.
> Nice try.



I'm pretty sure you can use Choice Band in Stadium 2.  I'll try to find that for you and edit it in but I'm multitasking atm, so it might take a bit ^.^


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## Shirō Kazami (May 3, 2009)

Carsul said:


> I'm pretty sure you can use CB in Poke Stadium 2.  Ill try to find that for you.



Really? Have you EVER played Stadium 2 then? 

Other than Berries, Leftovers, Thick Club and Light Ball, these are the only held items in 2nd gen that actually apply in Stadium battles: 

*Spoiler*: __ 




Berserk Gene  
Charcoal
Black Belt   
Quick Claw
Bright Powder
Focus Band 
Hard Stone  
Lucky Egg  
Magnet      
Mystic Water 
Pink Bow  
Poison Barb  
Scope Lens 
Sharp Beak  
Silver Powder 
Spell Tag    
Twisted Spoon 




CB started to appear in Emerald onward.


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