# All People That Can Beat a Healthy/Mobile Nagato?



## Rob (Apr 12, 2013)

Who are they? 

I feel like he should be in the top 5 or 6 (I could be very very wrong). 

*Given: *
-Rikudou (If you want to count him)
-Hashirama
-Madara

Post away! 

*Note:* Again, this is a fully Mobile, and Healthy Nagato.


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## ueharakk (Apr 12, 2013)

Naruto, Obito that's about it

and of course edo tensei users.


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## Bonly (Apr 12, 2013)

I'd say the Given,BM Naruto, Kabuto, Orochi and Obito. Nagato is strong but I have him in my top 10 list.


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## Magician (Apr 12, 2013)

Not counting the Rikudo fam. Probably only, Obito, BM Naruto, Hashirama, and Madara. So top 5 for him.


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## Kai (Apr 12, 2013)

Besides the OP's given, only Naruto and Tobi can beat Nagato. The next shinobi with the best chance at beating him is probably Minato.

Sasuke should surpass Nagato really soon as foreshadowed by Tobi.


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## Dr. White (Apr 12, 2013)

By Healthy Nagato I assume you basically mean Post-Absorption Edo Nagato, just living, and without effects of plugging Gedo.

100 Percentiles:
-Hashirama
-Edo Madara
-BM Naruto
-Prime SM Kabuto(unrestricted)
-Rinnengan Tobi w/ Paths

75th Percentile:
-EMS Sasuke(w/ Taka)
-EMS Madara
-KCM Naruto(If he isn't being a complete dumbass)
-Rinnengan Tobi

50th Percentile:
-Edo Itachi
-Edo Minato
-Kakashi & Gai(War Arc Feats)
-Hiruzen(via Shiki Fujin)
-EMS Sasuke

25th Percentile 
-Minato
-Itachi
-Killer Bee
-Tobirama(Based on portrayal/the little feats he has)

Honorable Mention:
-Mu
-Sand Trio
-Kakashi(via Kamui)
-Sandaime Raikage


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## Rocky (Apr 12, 2013)

EMS Madara should really be in the 100th percentile. Kyuubizord runs Nagato over casually.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 12, 2013)

For certain we know only other Rinnegan users have the best shot of beating Nagato. Other than that, everyone else (at the moment) is shaky ground given that the Rinnegan has powers that can deal with most situations. Even its deadly almost catch-22 situation where it forces you into close combat, but it has jutsu that makes that a bad move e.g. Shinra Tensei.

Remember considering only the Six Paths jutsu, Kabuto thought mobility would help him mow down Naruto, Bee and Itachi at the same time. That should give you an idea of what sort of level a mobile Nagato can operate at with just the Rinnegan abilities. The level increases when you factor in what Outer Path skill he has alongside his Ninjutsu skill.

To add some perspective, the Ninjutsu skill alone was enough to force Jiraiya to go into SM (taking it seriously) from the start. A reaction that no other shinobi has triggered, even high levels like Kisame and Itachi.


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## Rob (Apr 12, 2013)

Kabuto? Orochimaru? 

Why do I feel like Nagato would win those two battles?


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## Joakim3 (Apr 12, 2013)

Discounting the given....

BM Naruto & Rinne-Obito are the only people who could realistically take out a completely un-gimped healthy Nagato (that includes his _Pein Rikudo_ before facing Nagato)

You can also add Kabuto & Oro to the list if they start spamming _Edo Tensei_

Everyone else fails horrifically, as 98% of the verse can't even beat his _Pein Rikudo_ let alone him, and assuming they do manage to beat them.... Nagato himself would wipe them off the planet all over again with full knowledge of there abilities to boot

So yes if you include fighting his _Pein Rikudo_ first he is in the top 5, with Sasuke being the only other person who will realistically surpass him by mangas end


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## Nikushimi (Apr 13, 2013)

Itachi, Minato, Sasuke, and Kabuto can do it, though a "perfect" Nagato would be the more probable victor against any of them.

Naruto and Obito are givens, I would say.

That's pretty much it. So Nagato is definitely "top 10" material.


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## Meruem (Apr 13, 2013)

People stronger than Nagato:

RS
Madara
Hashirama
Obito
Naruto
Minato
Elder son of RS
Younger son of RS
Kabuto
Konohamaru
Meant to hit top 10 but hit 15 on accident.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 13, 2013)

Kakashi wasn't mentioned by most. At this rate he blindside warps himself as efficiently as Obito.

He should kill Nagato rather casually with a simple bushin distraction and blindside kamui head-shot. 

Other than Kakashi and OP mentioned:

*Naruto, Obito, Danzo and Killer Bee w/Samehada *win more often than not against a living healthy Nagato. *BL'd SM Jiraiya* can sink him with Yomi Numa, *Mu* can blindside him while invisible, *Oro/Kabuto* can overpower him with edo army, *BL'd Minato* can surprise him with FTG Lv.2- etc. 

Tier wise he is in the top 10 in the manga, nearing the middle of that list. The rinnegan is power incarnate. 

Match-up wise, he could lose to the likes of Hanzo's Ibuse if given the right degree of underestimation. That's the thing about match-ups, even the most powerful combatants can fall to mid or low tiers if they have a single weakness. So really, what's the point of a tier list? 

Knowledge also plays an important part in any simulation, because Nagato has shown time and time again to be an ego inflated psychopath who consistently enjoys playing cat and mouse tactical warfare with his enemy: a clear weakness which many lower tiers could take advantage of.

In many simulations, a cripple Edo Nagato has a better chance of winning than a living healthy mobile Nagato namely because of his reckless style of fighting.


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## Dominus (Apr 13, 2013)

The ones you mentioned and Obito and Naruto. Edo Tensei users may win if they use it immediately.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 13, 2013)

What's all this I'm hearing about Edo Tensei user*s*?

We still don't have feats for Tobirama's Edo Tensei, Orochimaru would get shitfucked by Pain, Edo Tensei or not, and Kabuto is just too God damned incompetent for it to make any difference against someone of Nagato's level.


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## Rob (Apr 13, 2013)

Still not too sure how Kabuto or Oro (Or Minato/Itachi) beat him. A healthy him. 120% Mobile/healthy... 

It's not like the first two can just call in ET when they want, since he's... you know... fighting them... 

(Unless I missed something on being able to ET whenever you want)


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## Vergil642 (Apr 13, 2013)

Apart from Hashirama, Madara and RS...

-Itachi depending on knowledge. Tsukuyomi would put Nagato down and a Genjutsu+Kunai to the heart would potentially work too.

-Kakashi could Kamui him into oblivion, though his summons might be able to summon him back out of the Kamui dimension.

-Obito could use his own Rinnegan abilities, plus Mokuton and Kamui warpage to deal with him.

-Kabuto could manage it by summoning his Edo Army and having an Edo Itachi Tsukuyomi him.

Orochimaru would have a shot if he could control Hashirama. Naruto would get manhandled because Nagato can just nom his chakra shroud in BM or KCM and his SM is just too weak to deal with Nagato.


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## Rob (Apr 13, 2013)

Well, I mean in a 1v1. 

So no ET spamming. 

Obviously Kabuto and Oro could beat him when summoning a shit ton of Jinchuriki, Kage, and othe S-ranks. 

But individually?


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## KeyofMiracles (Apr 13, 2013)

Madara, Hashirama, Obito and Naruto.


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## joshhookway (Apr 13, 2013)

RobLucciRapes said:


> Still not too sure how Kabuto or Oro (Or Minato/Itachi) beat him. A healthy him. 120% Mobile/healthy...
> 
> *It's not like the first two can just call in ET when they want, since he's... you know... fighting them... *
> 
> (Unless I missed something on being able to ET whenever you want)



Can you tell me what this means.  I don't know how to read.



Here's my list:

Kakashi: Kamui gg

Naruto: Clones and Chakra Cloak gg

Killer Bee: 8 tails whirlwind

Obito: kamui gg

Gai: Afternoon Tiger gg. Rinnegan is weak to taijutsu.

Orochimaru: Edo Tensei gg

Kabuto: Edo Tensei/ Dragon Orb gg

SM Jiraiya: Frog Song gg

Itachi: Toksuka cannon

Deidara; c 3 spam GG

Tobirama: Edo Tensei GG


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## Deleted member 211714 (Apr 14, 2013)

Top 5, I'd say~

A healthy, mobile Nagato w/ GM is superior to BM Naruto, in my opinion.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 14, 2013)

King Itachi said:


> Top 5, I'd say~
> 
> A healthy, mobile Nagato w/ GM is superior to BM Naruto, in my opinion.



I have to agree. The only Naruto that can adequately fight Nagato (or any Rinnegan user) is one who merges Kurama's power with SM. I'm sure such a Naruto will exist one day.


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## Big Mom (Apr 14, 2013)

As of now, Nagato is in the fifth slot in my list (only go by feats):

0. Juubi
1. Madara Uchiha
2. Obito Uchiha
3. Kabuto (without Edo Tensei)
4. BM Naruto
5. Nagato


As soon as we get feats for the Hokages and EMS Sasuke, Nagato will no longer make the Top 5.


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## ATastyMuffin (Apr 14, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I have to agree. The only Naruto that can adequately fight Nagato (or any Rinnegan user) is one who merges Kurama's power with SM. I'm sure such a Naruto will exist one day.



Care to explain why Nagato w/ Gedo Mazo > BM Naruto?


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 14, 2013)




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## ImSerious (Apr 14, 2013)

Naruto, Minato, Obito, Tobirama, Hashirama, Madara.


Thats about it.


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## blk (Apr 14, 2013)

Aside from the given, Obito has good chances of beating Nagato.

Then there are Itachi and Minato that can give to him a difficult fight, but i would generally favor the Rinnegan user.




ATastyMuffin said:


> Care to explain why Nagato w/ Gedo Mazo > BM Naruto?



Hmm, how does Naruto's attacks get past Preta Path?


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## Rob (Apr 14, 2013)

I always figured Nagato is superior to Minato. 

Does Minato have anything protective of Chibaku Tensei?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 14, 2013)

RobLucciRapes said:


> Does Minato have anything protective of Chibaku Tensei?



His only defences are circumstantial.


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (Apr 14, 2013)

Top 10, most likely

Hashirama 
Madara 
Tobi 
Naruto
Nagato/Itachi/Minato
Tobirama/EMS Sasuke
Kabuto


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## crystalblade13 (Apr 14, 2013)

Vergil642 said:


> Apart from Hashirama, Madara and RS...
> 
> -Itachi depending on knowledge. Tsukuyomi would put Nagato down and a Genjutsu+Kunai to the heart would potentially work too.
> 
> ...



naruto would win. he's too fast to be tagged by absorption, and nothing aside from full blown shinra tensei (which isnt spammable) is stopping a biju mode chakra roar (which is spammable).

once their off balance its biju ball spam gg.


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## joshhookway (Apr 14, 2013)

blk said:


> Aside from the given, Obito has good chances of beating Nagato.
> 
> Then there are Itachi and Minato that can give to him a difficult fight, but i would generally favor the Rinnegan user.
> 
> ...



Kyuubi roar

6 tails kyuubi outpowered Deva's shinra tensei. BM Transformation roars will kill Nagato.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 14, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Care to explain why Nagato w/ Gedo Mazo > BM Naruto?



Preta Path ultimately negates everything and anything BM Naruto could ever try. With Sage Mode, even though he'd be weaker, he still had something on the Preta Path: the Frog Katas.

Hence I said a SM-Kurama power fusion would help Naruto with Rinnegan users. KCM/BM combos with the Frog Katas would be the perfect counter for the Preta Path while providing a more than adequate skill set to fight the other powers the Rinnegan has.


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## ueharakk (Apr 15, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Preta Path ultimately negates everything and anything BM Naruto could ever try.


everything and anything except well you know, knocking nagato out with a  flash shunshin punch or slitting nagato's throat with a flash shunshin punch or shockwave roar.

Heck nagato can get hit by a rasengan if he can't put preta path up in time to absorb the rasengan.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> With Sage Mode, even though he'd be weaker, he still had something on the Preta Path: the Frog Katas.


he can use SM while using BM....  and in addition to frog Kata's he can still overload Nagato wit natural energy by making him absorb SM attacks via preta path or making him absorb a SM clone.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Hence I said a SM-Kurama power fusion would help Naruto with Rinnegan users. KCM/BM combos with the Frog Katas would be the perfect counter for the Preta Path while providing a more than adequate skill set to fight the other powers the Rinnegan has.


Do you mean actually fusing SM and BM?  Because he can already use SM clones while in BM/KCM...


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## Deleted member 211714 (Apr 15, 2013)

I think he is referring to the *actual* fusion of SM and BM, ueharakk. 

Naruto hasn't used individual clones that possess their combined strength - let alone on his own - which is why the feat would make a vast difference.


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## blk (Apr 15, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Kyuubi roar
> 
> 6 tails kyuubi outpowered Deva's shinra tensei. BM Transformation roars will kill Nagato.



The Shinra Tensei that Deva used against the Kyuubi wasn't one of his most powerful.
Infact, i believe that the one that Deva used against the toads [1] or the one that Nagato used against Bee and Naruto [2] should be enough for push away BM Naruto and his roar.

Aside from the roar, i don't know what BM Naruto has for take down Nagato.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 15, 2013)

blk said:


> The Shinra Tensei that Deva used against the Kyuubi wasn't one of his most powerful.
> Infact, i believe that the one that Deva used against the toads [1] or the one that Nagato used against Bee and Naruto [2] should be enough for push away BM Naruto and his roar.
> 
> Aside from the roar, i don't know what BM Naruto has for take down Nagato.


Problem being as already said above by several posters:

1. Roar can be spammed- ST cannot. Thus, Roar, Roar. Nagato dies. The *larger* ST showcased versus the frog trio cannot be prepped before the roar hits- Deva charged that release. More importantly, it does not mean this ST is stronger than any other ST used in the manga- it's simply larger.

2. Roar is faster than ST, stronger than ST, and 6-tailed undisciplined Naruto already stood ground and roared through Nagato's point-blank ST. BM Naruto tanked a direct sniper lazerdama- which is faster than any variant of ST and CLEARLY more destructive- and he didn't move an inch. Susano-armored Kurama tanked a direct exploding TBB- and didn't move an inch. At this rate, I'm confident BM Naruto would jog through CST. 

3. Nagato is one man- Naruto is 1,000

4. KCM Naruto dodged Nagato's initial ST while base Killer B did not. Thus, BM Naruto can shunshin above the ST, and roar again- killing Nagato. 

5. Nagato is slower than BM Naruto, KCM Naruto, and probably SM Naruto- as his paths weren't visually reacting to majority of SM Naruto's attacks

6. BM Roar, Frog Call, Frog Song, and KCM Clone spam are all viable routes to kill Nagato. Spree-fire TBB and Superbijuudama would also probably kill Nagato regardless of Preta Path- the shock wave force behind the speed of them would send him flying once it hit his absorption sphere. Suggesting Nagato can absorb several TBBs in conjunction, or a massive country busting sphere TBB without sustaining bodily damage from the shock force behind them is laughable. Superbijuudama would also explode before he absorbed all of it. The largest chakra variant Preta Path has ever absorbed was Omeda Rasengan, and that took him two seconds. Preta struggled to absorb a single FRS as it nearly cut through his absorption sphere. I'm confident a normal spree-fire TBB would freight train through Nagato's body before he even managed to absorb 10% of it, or explode before he drained half of it- which sends him flying and turns his internals into jelly mesh. Samehada even has it's limits on how much chakra it can drain per-second. In these panels- we also see that Preta cannot instantly drain chakras. Judging by the speed and size of most TBBs, it's highly doubtful he manages to absorb a hole through them before they make contact with his body- vaporizing him- or of course explode- vaporizing/mortally wounding his internals. 

7. While Nagato lacks a logical route to kill BM Naruto


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## Coldhands (Apr 15, 2013)

Hashirama, Madara, Obito and Naruto are pretty much the only ones imho.


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## blk (Apr 15, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Problem being as already said above by several posters:
> 
> 1. Roar can be spammed- ST cannot. Thus, Roar, Roar. Nagato dies. The *larger* ST showcased versus the frog trio cannot be prepped before the roar hits- Deva charged that release. More importantly, it does not mean this ST is stronger than any other ST used in the manga- it's simply larger.



Shinra Tensei will push away Naruto as well, not only the roar, the 5 seconds of cooldown will be already passed by the time that Naruto stands up again. Therefore, Nagato will be able to re-use ST when Naruto comes and tries to fire a roar at him once again.
Further, Nagato will likely start to send summons and shoot missiles/lasers while Naruto is being pushed, so the latter won't be able to go after Nagato the moment he recovers.

The more the gravity attracts (pushes, in this case), the stronger it is.



> 2. Roar is faster than ST, stronger than ST, and 6-tailed undisciplined Naruto already stood ground and roared through Nagato's point-blank ST. BM Naruto tanked a direct sniper lazerdama- which is faster than any variant of ST and CLEARLY more destructive- and he didn't move an inch. Susano-armored Kurama tanked a direct exploding TBB- and didn't move an inch. At this rate, I'm confident BM Naruto would jog through CST.



The roar is not faster, i don't know what makes you think that it is.

The Juubi's laser is not faster than gravity and the fact that it didn't moved BM Naruto is totally irrelevant: Shinra Tensei's is designed for push away things, while the Juubi's laser is not.



> 3. Nagato is one man- Naruto is 1,000



The clones cannot touch Nagato, since Preta Path will absorb them.

Also, when did Naruto made 1000 clones?



> 4. *KCM Naruto dodged Nagato's initial ST* while base Killer B did not. Thus, BM Naruto can shunshin above the ST, and roar again- killing Nagato.



When did this happened?



> 5. Nagato is slower than BM Naruto, KCM Naruto, and probably SM Naruto- as his paths weren't visually reacting to majority of SM Naruto's attacks



Not sure about SM Naruto, but i agree with the rest.



> 6. BM Roar, Frog Call, Frog Song, and KCM Clone spam are all viable routes to kill Nagato. Spree-fire TBB and Superbijuudama would also probably kill Nagato regardless of Preta Path- the shock wave force behind the speed of them would send him flying once it hit his absorption sphere. Suggesting Nagato can absorb several TBBs in conjunction, or a massive country busting sphere TBB without sustaining bodily damage from the shock force behind them is laughable. Superbijuudama would also explode before he absorbed all of it. The largest chakra variant Preta Path has ever absorbed was Omeda Rasengan, and that took him two seconds. Preta struggled to absorb a single FRS as it nearly cut through his absorption sphere. I'm confident a normal spree-fire TBB would freight train through Nagato's body before he even managed to absorb 10% of it, or explode before he drained half of it- which sends him flying and turns his internals into jelly mesh. Samehada even has it's limits on how much chakra it can drain per-second. In these panels- we also see that Preta cannot instantly drain chakras. Judging by the speed and size of most TBBs, it's highly doubtful he manages to absorb a hole through them before they make contact with his body- vaporizing him- or of course explode- vaporizing/mortally wounding his internals.



FRS cutting through absorption? Country busting Bijuudama? I don't remember any of these things, you should link scans that show them.

The largest amount of chakra that Preta Path absorbed was Killer Bee's shroud, which i believe to have a greater quantity of chakra than a Bijuudama.
Not only that, but it was absorbed in seconds.

It was also implied that Preta Path could have absorbed Onoki's super Jinton.

The Bijuudama spheres will stop the their movement the moment they arrive the barrier, Nagato won't be touched by them.

The shockwave of the Bijuudama is not impressive most of the times, with Asura Path Nagato should be able to withstand it.

Moreover, Nagato can simply repel everything with Shinra Tensei.



> 7. While Nagato lacks a logical route to kill BM Naruto



Nagato can outlast Naruto and kill him when the BM is over.

Another thing to keep in mind is that every bit of Kyuubi's chakra that Nagato absorbs will power up him greatly.


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2013)

It's hard because just saying he's mobile doesn't tell us his actual movement speed. I need that to be able to answer the thread.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 15, 2013)

> Shinra Tensei will push away Naruto as well, not only the roar, the 5 seconds of cooldown will be already passed by the time that Naruto stands up again. Therefore, Nagato will be able to re-use ST when Naruto comes and tries to fire a roar at him once again.
> Further, Nagato will likely start to send summons and shoot missiles/lasers while Naruto is being pushed, so the latter won't be able to go after Nagato the moment he recovers.


You're suggesting he can release an ST powerful enough to push through a shock wave roar that sent 5 bijuu flying thousands of meters and manage to somehow knock back a colossal statue of Kurama's compact chakra afterwards? 

I've provided feats of BM Naruto tanking a direct Juubi laserdama- the fastest and most destructive weapon in the manga by far- without moving an inch.

Your logic: Nagato's panic defensive ST will push through Kurama's bijuu tossing roar and send Naruto flying to the point he cannot recover before ST will be used again. 

You are ridiculous. 



> The more the gravity attracts (pushes, in this case), the stronger it is.


Your boss-sized ST is simply a larger AoE of a gravity burst- it does not mean that the damage inflicted on anything in that AoE would be grossly more devastating than if it were concentrated in a smaller AoE. Nagato's base ST's bust concrete and destroy SM clones. What suggests they're any weaker than his boss-sized ST?



> The roar is not faster, i don't know what makes you think that it is.


What makes you think it's slower? 

ST isn't an instant attack. KCM Naruto, SM Naruto, Ma and Pa all dodged ST variants. 



> The Juubi's laser is not faster than gravity and the fact that it didn't moved BM Naruto is totally irrelevant: Shinra Tensei's is designed for push away things, while the Juubi's laser is not.


Gravity doesn't have a fixed speed- it depends on how close I am and how large the host is. The earth is bigger than the moon, I'm on earth, thus I'm being pulled to it at a faster rate than the moon. 

The Juubi's laserdama was shown as nearly instant in blowing a blast at BM Naruto and Gyuki who were several hundred meters away. It's the fastest Ninjutsu in the manga. 

The fact it did not move Naruto is totally relevant- the power behind that stream of compacted destructive chakra moving at that ridiculous speed would move anything else in the verse casually. Your notion that *any ST variant* has a better chance of pushing anything back at a faster rate than laserdama is absolute folly. 



> The clones cannot touch Nagato, since Preta Path will absorb them.


They can blindside him, throw FRS at different angles, drop Food Cart Destroyers on him in CQC, and outright blitz him before he can initiate Preta path. 



> Also, when did Naruto made 1000 clones?


Several times in the series. Most recently against Madara before he destroyed all of them with Mokuton. 



> FRS cutting through absorption? Country busting Bijuudama? I don't remember any of these things, you should link scans that show them.


I'm positive FRS was showing visual capacity to cut and resist Preta's absorption. I'm also positive superbijuudama is a country buster. 

I don't feel like getting the scans, but should you go back and read those chapters- you will see for yourself. 



> The largest amount of chakra that Preta Path absorbed was Killer Bee's shroud, which i believe to have a greater quantity of chakra than a Bijuudama.
> Not only that, but it was absorbed in seconds.


HIGHLY doubtful. B's chakra shroud is just that, enough chakra to cover his body. A TBB is visually massively larger than B's cloak, and is compacted explosive chakra. If you're suggesting B's cloak contains more chakra than several spree-TBBs or a country busting superbijuudama you're wrong. 



> It was also implied that Preta Path could have absorbed Onoki's super Jinton.


Implied isn't correct in the least regard. Madara absorbed a small-release of Jinton- that's all. Onoki's Jinton crumbles in comparison to the amount of chakra used in superbijuudama or several spree-TBBs. 



> The Bijuudama spheres will stop the their movement the moment they arrive the barrier, Nagato won't be touched by them.


Highly doubtful- they move across village distances in a fraction of a second, and reflect off each other to explode several kilometers away seconds after deflection. 

To suggest Nagato, a man who required several seconds to fully absorb V2 B's cloak at point-blank has the capacity to absorb a safe hole through ridiculous-velocity spammed TBBs or country nukes is absurd. I've already told you Preta required several panels to absorb a simple Omeda Rasengan, and nearly was killed by an FRS that was visually cutting through his absorption sphere. These techniques aren't even worth mentioning when compared to the speed and size of your standard TBB. He will attempt at absorbing it, begin sucking the front of the TBB in- only to be overwhelmed and literally plowed through and vaporized by 2 or 3 other TBBs colliding and pushing the first, causing a massive explosion. 



> The shock wave of the Bijuudama is not impressive most of the times, with Asura Path Nagato should be able to withstand it.


How is Asura path helping Nagato deal with the shock-wave force behind the high-velocity compact spinning bomb? Once it reaches Nagato a trail of air will whip back toward him similar to what happens when you lay under a plane taking off. Imagine a massive plane coming directly at you at 500mph, then suddenly disappearing before making contact with your face (Absorbed).

The shock-wave force following behind spree-fire TBBs can likely be compared to that of mini-roars. 

Imagine Neo is a TBB. The displaced air following him because of his speed alone destroys the landscape. Now, imagine Neo flying at this speed then suddenly stopping in front of you, what happens? The glass-shattering, car-pulling air displacement following behind will come right at you and rip your skin off, break every bone and blood vessel in your body and sever your spine paralyzing you, liquefy your organs, pin-ball your brain around in your skull cracking it and causing massive hemorrhages and permanent brain damage, instantly putting you into a coma and finally it sends you flying very, very far. In short, you will die instantly. 

This is what happens to Nagato attempting to absorb a TBB. Obviously it doesn't move as fast as Neo, but it certainly moves fast enough to do the above. 



> Moreover, Nagato can simply repel everything with Shinra Tensei.


No he can't we've already been over this. 

If he repels the TBB (which is improbable considering it's size and speed), 10 KCM clones move in from behind and kill him, or Naruto kills him with a roar. 



> Nagato can outlast Naruto and kill him when the BM is over.


Nagato outlasting BM Naruto? Highly improbable, Naruto is clearly a stamina god and by all means would kill Nagato before the 5 minute limit is reached. 



> Another thing to keep in mind is that every bit of Kyuubi's chakra that Nagato absorbs will power up him greatly.


No it won't. He's already healthy, and his techniques have not shown greater power after absorbing enemy chakra.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 15, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> everything and anything except well you know, knocking nagato out with a  flash shunshin punch or slitting nagato's throat with a flash shunshin punch or shockwave roar.
> 
> Heck nagato can get hit by a rasengan if he can't put preta path up in time to absorb the rasengan.



That didn't help him against a stationary Nagato, so it will not help him against a mobile Nagato. 

Naruto did try to slam a Rasengan on Nagato and came to the same conclusion he did in their last battle: Ninjutsu won't cut it.



> he can use SM while using BM....  and in addition to frog Kata's he can still overload Nagato wit natural energy by making him absorb SM attacks via preta path or making him absorb a SM clone.



If he can sure, but we've not seen that. "Heck" when a SM clone disperses, it has no effect on KCM/BM Naruto. On top of that when KCM Naruto tries to enter SM, he gets out of KCM.



> Do you mean actually fusing SM and BM?  Because he can already use SM clones while in BM/KCM...



He has to be able to fuse. Sage clones get demolished by powers like the God and Demon Path whereas KCM/BM get shut down by the Preta Path.

No matter what form Naruto uses, he's always falls short when fighting a Rinnegan. The only way for Naruto to ever overcome the Rinnegan is to actually fuse those forms together. That way he retains the ability to counter the Preta Path while being able to handle the rest.


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## ueharakk (Apr 15, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That didn't help him against a stationary Nagato, so it will not help him against a mobile Nagato.


when did naruto try that against a stationary nagato?  Preta path is canonically bypassed if you can hit nagato before he can react.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Naruto did try to slam a Rasengan on Nagato and came to the same conclusion he did in their last battle: Ninjutsu won't cut it.


reread the condition in which I said a rasengan can work on nagato.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If he can sure, but we've not seen that. "Heck" when a SM clone disperses, it has no effect on KCM/BM Naruto. On top of that when KCM Naruto tries to enter SM, he gets out of KCM.


what have we not see him do?  We've seen him have clones enter SM while the real is in BM/KCM, we've seen frog katas is a legit counter to preta path, and we've seen when you overload preta path it turns to stone.

Why would a SM clone dispersing have an affect on KCM/BM Naruto?  KCM/BM Naruto have magnitudes more chakra than Sage Naruto, entering sage mode requires balancing natural energy with the chakra you have on hand.  



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He has to be able to fuse. Sage clones get demolished by powers like the God and Demon Path whereas KCM/BM get shut down by the Preta Path.


Demon path?  How does demon path demolish sage clones that can dodge sandaime raikage at point blank and counterblitz him?
What about multiple sage clones some disguised as things like FRS that either get absorbed by nagato in which case he gets turned into stone or they pop out and frog kata him as he tries to absorb them?  What about two waves of SM clones one to take the first shinra tensei, then next to go for the kill?  What about SM clones protected and delivered right onto nagato via BM Naruto's chakra arms?

KCM/BM Naruto's OFFENSIVE NINJUTSU is shut down by preta path, in no way shape or form are they themselves shut down the actual mode or naruto himself.  
Flash shunshin blitzing or kunai throat slash still ends Nagato.  And working with BM and KCM, like described above there are tons of tactics naruto can use to get the sage clones up close and personal.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> No matter what form Naruto uses, he's always falls short when fighting a Rinnegan. The only way for Naruto to ever overcome the Rinnegan is to actually fuse those forms together. That way he retains the ability to counter the Preta Path while being able to handle the rest.


That's just a baseless assertion that plays ignorant to Naruto's current abilities and the canonical counters Naruto has against Nagato.


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## Vergil642 (Apr 15, 2013)

crystalblade13 said:


> naruto would win. he's too fast to be tagged by absorption, and nothing aside from full blown shinra tensei (which isnt spammable) is stopping a biju mode chakra roar (which is spammable).
> 
> once their off balance its biju ball spam gg.



Nagato just has to think it and he can have Fuujutsu Kyuuin up. He also managed to get the drop on KCM Naruto and never once got blitzed by him. There's no reason to assume Naruto can blitz him, meaning Fuujutsu Kyuuin is always a viable defence.

And with that one Jutsu Naruto has nothing he can use against Nagato. SM isn't going to be strong enough to deal with Asura Realm strength and durability when KCM wasn't and with Fuujutsu Kyuuin up Nagato can casually absorb Kurama's Chakra from Naruto. All those Bijudama mean dick when their chakra just gets absorbed.


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## Joakim3 (Apr 15, 2013)

While I'm 100% with @euharakk on BM Naruto beating a healthy Nagato, when it comes to the BM Naruto blitzing debate... 

The only problem I see is Nagato has never been flat out blitzed (even by speedsters) save the time Shurado was tagged mid air (and even then it couldn't dodge mid flight). He was perfectly reacting to SM Naruto's CqC assaults while exhausted and this is without chakra sensing (something an _Raiton no Yori_ enhanced Raikagenaut failed to do)

Adding his chakra buildup sensing and you see where the problems starts compiling. It's simply a matter of his upper limit reactionary interpretation (i.e If kishi would show BM Naruto fodder blitzing Nagato via shunshin vs. a healthy Nagato being able to react/defend against it). 

While I don't deny Naruto _can't_ blitz Nagato, I just don't confidently see it happening without the aid of a good bit of distractions to disrupt Nagato's sensing/focus 











Side Note *If we assume Nagato's outpacing of _Shinra Tensei_ is a legitement speed feat, than crippled he can damn near match Flash/V2 shunshin, meaning blitzing is completely out of the question


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## Kai (Apr 15, 2013)

Vergil642 said:


> SM isn't going to be strong enough to deal with Asura Realm strength and durability when KCM wasn't


SM physical power is tiers beyond Asura Path's.



			
				Vergil642 said:
			
		

> and with Fuujutsu Kyuuin up Nagato can casually absorb Kurama's Chakra from Naruto. All those Bijudama mean dick when their chakra just gets absorbed.


This doesn't take into account the actual force behind Naruto's Bijuu Mode attacks. A shockwave that flung five bijuus by a mere gesture will send Nagato flying unless he sacrifices five seconds to hold his ground with Shinra Tensei.

BM Naruto is undoubtedly superior to Nagato on most fronts and is backed by *four* different instances of fighting the Rin'negan.


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## Joakim3 (Apr 15, 2013)

Kai said:


> SM physical power is tiers beyond Asura Path's.



Gakido was capable of physically restraining SM Naruto, while Ningendo casually caught SM Jiraiyas punch with hand.... and consensus is Shurado vastly stronger. 

Shurado replicated Killer B's Gyuki enhanced throwing feat.. with 1/6 of Nagato's chakra and physically managed to tear off SM Jiraiya arm

We simply don't know the upper limit of the paths strength, the only thing we know is the a CONSIDERABLY stronger than your average kage and rival SM users strength/durabilty


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## GunX2 (Apr 15, 2013)

Only Danzo can handle all that power.


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## Rob (Apr 15, 2013)

Turrin said:


> It's hard because just saying he's mobile doesn't tell us his actual movement speed. I need that to be able to answer the thread.





DaVizWiz said:


> Your boss-sized ST is simply a larger AoE of a gravity burst- it does not mean that the damage inflicted on anything in that AoE would be grossly more devastating than if it were concentrated in a smaller AoE. Nagato's base ST's bust concrete and destroy SM clones. What suggests they're any weaker than his boss-sized ST?



I'm sorry, but isn't it only common sense that The bigger it is, the more damage it has? 

For example, if I popped a balloon next to you, you probably wouldn't even feel it really. But let's say I popped a balloon the size of a city next to you, you'd probably feel it. 



Also, can someone fill me in on what FRS is?


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## Meruem (Apr 15, 2013)

Fuuton: Rasenshuriken ^


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## Akitō (Apr 15, 2013)

Naruto and Tobi should beat him simply by virtue of their overwhelming strength. Minato has a good chance because he's so much smarter than Nagato, but I wouldn't favor him as Nagato's Shinra Tensei is a viable way around Hiraishin. Kabuto can obviously defeat Nagato if he has Edo Tensei available, and he has a solid chance even if he doesn't: Kabuto without Edo Tensei is a character I've come to consider as Nagato's equal, but I think in an open field (which is what I'm assuming the location of this bout is) Nagato would be the favorite. 

Orochimaru is a given if he has Edo Tensei; anyone saying that Edo Tensei won't help him is fooling themselves and trying to make too much of the Itachi > Orochimaru statement. Think logically: even if Orochimaru has to control the reincarnated bodies manually (which is a wild assumption that isn't actually true), it's ridiculous to place him on such a low pedestal to force the outcome of him losing with the power of numerous Hokage at his disposal. And no, Nagato will _not_ be soul-sucking Orochimaru and his pawns like so many people love to declare: they're top-tier shinobi, not low-level chūnin.


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## Yashoda (Apr 15, 2013)

- Hashirama
- Edo Madara
- BM Naruto
- SM Kabuto (good chance)
- Obito w/ & w/o Jinchūriki Paths


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 15, 2013)

Kai said:


> SM physical power is tiers beyond Asura Path's.



That depends on the SM user. If the user had surreal physical strength in their base form, then SM will doubtlessly put them miles above the Demon Realm's physical power. 
However if they didn't have too much physical power (in terms of immense) to work with, then you can still argue that _in that case_ SM's physical power won't topple Demon Realm's.

Which one SM Naruto falls under is probably up for debate.



ueharakk said:


> when did naruto try that against a stationary nagato?  Preta path is canonically bypassed if you can hit nagato before he can react.



What happened when Nagato was hit by Bee? Preta Path shut him down.



> reread the condition in which I said a rasengan can work on nagato.



Why wouldn't a sensor like Nagato be able to react to Naruto? Clue: he'll sense the chakra build up on his feet for the Shunshin. Shinra Tensei is a good counter to knock Naruto back if he tries to do much then Nagato himself can get to Naruto with amazing speed and shut him down with the Preta Path.
Remember cripple Nagato outpacing ST to get behind Bee? A healthy Nagato is more than capable of that.



> what have we not see him do?  We've seen him have clones enter SM while the real is in BM/KCM, we've seen frog katas is a legit counter to preta path, and we've seen when you overload preta path it turns to stone.
> 
> Why would a SM clone dispersing have an affect on KCM/BM Naruto?  KCM/BM Naruto have magnitudes more chakra than Sage Naruto, entering sage mode requires balancing natural energy with the chakra you have on hand.



Despite SM, the clones could still be countered by ST and ironically the Preta Path. Clones are absorbent hence Naruto kept them away from that body.

In theory it should've given that SM from a clone does go back to the real one. For some reason this doesn't happen when Naruto is in KCM/BM.


> Demon path?  How does demon path demolish sage clones that can dodge sandaime raikage at point blank and counterblitz him?
> What about multiple sage clones some disguised as things like FRS that either get absorbed by nagato in which case he gets turned into stone or they pop out and frog kata him as he tries to absorb them?  What about two waves of SM clones one to take the first shinra tensei, then next to go for the kill?  What about SM clones protected and delivered right onto nagato via BM Naruto's chakra arms?
> 
> KCM/BM Naruto's OFFENSIVE NINJUTSU is shut down by preta path, in no way shape or form are they themselves shut down the actual mode or naruto himself.
> Flash shunshin blitzing or kunai throat slash still ends Nagato.  And working with BM and KCM, like described above there are tons of tactics naruto can use to get the sage clones up close and personal.



How does Naruto do much to bodies which forced him (due to shared vision) to use an invisible attack like the Frog Katas?
Popping and trying frog katas won't work when Shinra Tensei works almost instantly.

Plus clones won't be effective if you encourage Nagato to use a missile spam or bombs alongside the God Realm.

Actually the whole mode is shut down. Remember, it shut down SM once; KCM/BM are pure chakra so they can be shut down too.

See the first section on why Shunshin and slitting is one of the worst things Naruto can try to do to Nagato.



> That's just a baseless assertion that plays ignorant to Naruto's current abilities and the canonical counters Naruto has against Nagato.



A valid assertion. Your main point hinged on clone tactics whilst ignoring Nagato's answers to them (Demon Realm powers alongside God and Preta) whilst underestimating the ones you do factor in. In addition you've not seemingly considered that these powers can be used at the same time. 

A canonical counter Nagato has to Naruto's forms are the Preta Path; he shut down one before. SM beat Nagato's Preta Path while Naruto was entering it (so he got exposed to a lot of natural energy). 
However BM/KCM are not safe because they are chakra with no special components. Not even BM is safe, even if it comes from Kurama. Remember V2 for Bee comes from Gyuki and look what happened.

Think about it: SM Naruto struggled a lot against weaker versions of Nagato's jutsu, so obviously the stronger versions would wreck him; SM can only truly get past the Preta Path. 
KCM Naruto can combat the rest, but like 99.9% of characters in this manga, he gets shut down by the Preta Path. 

Put them together and you have the Rinnegan's natural enemy.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 15, 2013)

> I'm sorry, but isn't it only common sense that The bigger it is, the more damage it has?
> 
> For example, if I popped a balloon next to you, you probably wouldn't even feel it really. But let's say I popped a balloon the size of a city next to you, you'd probably feel it.


You could be right. But I'm not so sure that balloon example applies when compared someone who can control gravity bursts. 

I'm not exactly sure why I'm debating this, other than to challenge the notion that a larger AoE ST isn't particularly more powerful scan-wise. I mean, I simply don't see anything in the manga suggesting boss-sized ST would significantly destroy someone worse than that of a point-blank small burst ST. In my mindset, it simply pushes further, thus extending the same amount of force over a larger distance- and to some that can be considered more devastating as it lasts longer- but to me it's just a prolonged variant of Nagato's normal ST. If the normal ST's force isn't enough to kill or wound the opponent- all it's doing is pushing him/her further out than the normal ST. 

I'm probably wrong as CST/Boss sized ST have been looked at as superior to normal ST in lethality on the forum, but I wouldn't mind if someone would make me look like an idiot by making me understand.

A final note: I'm surprised Danzo (Koto) and Kakashi (Kamui) have not been mentioned as frequently as Kabuto and Orochimaru in chances to defeat Nagato.


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## Rob (Apr 15, 2013)

I heard Kakashi Tards are the worst here, second to Itachi... 

Not sure Kakashi is going to lolKamui Nagato, tbh.


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## Meruem (Apr 15, 2013)

RobLucciRapes said:


> I heard Kakashi Tards are the worst here, second to Itachi...
> 
> Not sure Kakashi is going to lolKamui Nagato, tbh.



Not really.  Itachitards aren't the worst here anyways.  Don't listen to the people that say that.  Kakashi fans are usually pretty fair actually, Kakashi is just ridiculously hax now.


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## blk (Apr 16, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> You're suggesting he can release an ST powerful enough to push through a shock wave roar that sent 5 bijuu flying thousands of meters and manage to somehow knock back a colossal statue of Kurama's compact chakra afterwards?
> 
> I've provided feats of BM Naruto tanking a direct Juubi laserdama- the fastest and most destructive weapon in the manga by far- without moving an inch.
> 
> Your logic: Nagato's panic defensive ST will push through Kurama's bijuu tossing roar and send Naruto flying to the point he cannot recover before ST will be used again.



The Bijuu clearly weren't pushed _thousands_ of meters away [1].

On the other hand, being pushed thousands of meters away is exactly what happened to the 3 toads [2 ; 3].
They were sent far outside Konoha, and they crushed all the objects that were in the way also.

These 3 toads are similar to BM Naruto in dimension.

By feats, Shinra Tensei can be far more powerful than the roar and has far better pushing power than the Juubi's laser (which has very limited feats, so i'm not sure why you bring it up).



> Your boss-sized ST is simply a larger AoE of a gravity burst- it does not mean that the damage inflicted on anything in that AoE would be grossly more devastating than if it were concentrated in a smaller AoE. Nagato's base ST's bust concrete and destroy SM clones. What suggests they're any weaker than his boss-sized ST?



Something that attracts (or in this case, repels) more stuff and from greater distance than another object, has a stronger gravitational power.

Hence, regarding the gravity, a bigger "AoE" equates to a greater power.



> What makes you think it's slower?
> 
> ST isn't an instant attack. KCM Naruto, SM Naruto, Ma and Pa all dodged ST variants.



When did this happened?



> Gravity doesn't have a fixed speed- it depends on how close I am and how large the host is. The earth is bigger than the moon, I'm on earth, thus I'm being pulled to it at a faster rate than the moon.
> 
> The Juubi's laserdama was shown as nearly instant in blowing a blast at BM Naruto and Gyuki who were several hundred meters away. It's the fastest Ninjutsu in the manga.
> 
> The fact it did not move Naruto is totally relevant- the power behind that stream of compacted destructive chakra moving at that ridiculous speed would move anything else in the verse casually. Your notion that *any ST variant* has a better chance of pushing anything back at a faster rate than laserdama is absolute folly.



When did i said that _any_ ST variants has a better chance of pushing something back?

I always talked about the Shinra Tensei that was used against the toads, or even stronger ones for that matter, but i never wrote what you are suggesting.



> They can blindside him, throw FRS at different angles, drop Food Cart Destroyers on him in CQC, and outright blitz him before he can initiate Preta path.



Everything aside from Food Cart Destroyer is absorbed.

Since Nagato is a sensor and showed the ability to perceive chakra build-ups, i'm sure that he can sense if a Shunshin is about to being used and prepare Preta Path in advance. Add to this his impressive reaction feats, and the chances of getting hit before being able to activate Preta Path become slim.

Moreover, Nagato has several summons that can help him greatly in dealing with clones.



> Several times in the series. Most recently against Madara before he destroyed all of them with Mokuton.



They are nowhere near 1000 [4].



> I'm positive FRS was showing visual capacity to cut and resist Preta's absorption. I'm also positive superbijuudama is a country buster.
> 
> I don't feel like getting the scans, but should you go back and read those chapters- you will see for yourself.



I saw the scans and the super Bijuudama is clearly not a country buster, nor it seemed that the FRS was cutting through Preta Path.



> HIGHLY doubtful. B's chakra shroud is just that, enough chakra to cover his body. A TBB is visually massively larger than B's cloak, and is compacted explosive chakra. If you're suggesting B's cloak contains more chakra than several spree-TBBs or a country busting superbijuudama you're wrong.
> 
> Implied isn't correct in the least regard. Madara absorbed a small-release of Jinton- that's all. Onoki's Jinton crumbles in comparison to the amount of chakra used in superbijuudama or several spree-TBBs.



Perhaps you are right regarding the shroud.

Madara said that he couldn't absorb the super Jinton because he or his clones didn't activated Preta Path in time: therefore it is implied that had he activated Preta Path in time, the Jinton would have been absorbed.

Additionally, i think that the super Jinton is at least comparable to a "standard" Bijuudama, since for destroy at molecular scale, extremely high level of energy are required.



> Highly doubtful- they move across village distances in a fraction of a second, and reflect off each other to explode several kilometers away seconds after deflection.
> 
> To suggest Nagato, a man who required several seconds to fully absorb V2 B's cloak at point-blank has the capacity to absorb a safe hole through ridiculous-velocity spammed TBBs or country nukes is absurd. I've already told you Preta required several panels to absorb a simple Omeda Rasengan, and nearly was killed by an FRS that was visually cutting through his absorption sphere. These techniques aren't even worth mentioning when compared to the speed and size of your standard TBB. He will attempt at absorbing it, begin sucking the front of the TBB in- only to be overwhelmed and literally plowed through and vaporized by 2 or 3 other TBBs colliding and pushing the first, causing a massive explosion.



Chakra based attacks stop in front of Preta Path because of its very nature.

"It disperses chakra within one's body by spinning it within one's body in the opposite direction; as a result, this technique can absorb any ninjutsu based technique, regardless of power, without harming the user."

This comes from the third databook.



> How is Asura path helping Nagato deal with the shock-wave force behind the high-velocity compact spinning bomb? Once it reaches Nagato a trail of air will whip back toward him similar to what happens when you lay under a plane taking off. Imagine a massive plane coming directly at you at 500mph, then suddenly disappearing before making contact with your face (Absorbed).
> 
> The shock-wave force following behind spree-fire TBBs can likely be compared to that of mini-roars.
> 
> ...



The problem is that this feature of the Bijuudama is not consistent.

I can remember showings where Bijuudama had strong shockwaves following them, but there are others where there is none (or a very weak one).
Thus, i'm not sure what Kishimoto wants to portray in this case.

But to be honest, i admit that your stance is preferable.



> No he can't we've already been over this.
> 
> If he repels the TBB (which is improbable considering it's size and speed), 10 KCM clones move in from behind and kill him, or Naruto kills him with a roar.



Shinra Tensei pushed away the 3 giant toads thousands of meters away, i'm sure that it can repel a Bijuudama (if used in a strong enough variant).

Further, the same jutsu makes Nagato able to impede Naruto from charging the strongest Bijuudama.

Clones will be sensed and absorbed if they come close to Nagato, or stopped by summons, or destroyed by the same Shinra Tensei that repelled the Bijuudama.



> Nagato outlasting BM Naruto? Highly improbable, Naruto is clearly a stamina god and by all means would kill Nagato before the 5 minute limit is reached.



Nagato is also a stamina god, and if he is able to survive, 5 minutes of fighting will be nothing for him.

Preta Path definitely renders him capable of outlasting Naruto (if he can survive against him, of course).



> No it won't. He's already healthy, and his techniques have not shown greater power after absorbing enemy chakra.



That's because he never absorbed very strong chakra, aside from when he took the Hachibi's (which in fact, powered him up).


There are also other possibilities to consider:

- Nagato can go airborne at a distance where all of Naruto's arsenal can be avoided, and keep bombarding him with lasers, missiles and sending summons, so that he will need to stay in the BM.
After 5 minutes, Nagato will come down and finish a non-BM Naruto.

- Bansho Tenin can be used as a counter to Bijuudama. Infact, with it Nagato can affect Naruto's aim causing his Bijuudama to miss, or can use it directly on the Bijuudama for change its direction, or, lastly, can use rocks (or whatever object that is in the nearby) for intercept the Bijuudama and making it explode mid-way.

- Much like the above, Asura's lasers and missiles can be used for intercept the Bijuudama and making it explode mid-way.


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## BroKage (Apr 16, 2013)

If we're not counting Edo Tensei and Bijuu summons, Nagato's easily top 5. But if I'm being generous the following have a chance at beating him:

Hashirama
Rinnegan Madara
BM Naruto
Rinnegan Obito
SM Kabuto
EMS Sasuke
Pain 
Itachi
Minato
Tobirama
Muu (if he can really only be sensed by contact)
Hachibi Killer Bee
Danzo (Koto GG)
Kakashi (Kamui GG)

I'd say Nagato's the favorite against all the ninja under BM Naruto, though.


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## Seon (Apr 16, 2013)

So a fan fiction version of Nagato? As the Nagato we know is not mobile at all. 

Ummm, naruto, sasuke, madara, hashirama, Tobi. So he's top ten.


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## ueharakk (Apr 16, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What happened when Nagato was hit by Bee? Preta Path shut him down.


so what?  Nagato was able to rip bee's cloak off for two reasons: 
1) he could react to bee both mentally and physically and even in that, he barely was able to do it in time
2) Bee's lariat makes contact with his opponent for an extended period of time rather than instant contact like a punch or kunai throat slash.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Why wouldn't a sensor like Nagato be able to react to Naruto? Clue: he'll sense the chakra build up on his feet for the Shunshin. Shinra Tensei is a good counter to knock Naruto back if he tries to do much then Nagato himself can get to Naruto with amazing speed and shut him down with the Preta Path.


It doesn't matter if Nagato can sense naruto building up chakra in his feet for the shunshin, that just means he knows that naruto has chakra built up for shunshin.  He doesn't know when naruto is going to actually release that chakra and use the actual shunshin. 

While Nagato was chanelling all his chakra into deva path, even deva was barely able to unleash a shinra tensei against mere KN6 level speed.  Nagato was barely able to put up preta path in time to absorb Bee's lariat.  Neither of those are even in the same tier as Ei let alone KCM or BM Naruto speed.

And the funny thing is that all of this is arguing Naruto vs Nagato in a 1 vs 1 situation, which is not going to be the case in a fight since Naruto will have BM, KCM and Sage clones about which easily divides nagatos focus and making him waste shinra tenseis.  

So nothing suggests nagato can even mentally react to Naruto's flash shunshin let alone put up preta path or intercept him with a shinra tensei even in a 1 vs 1 situation let alone multiple clones capable of doing so vs nagato.






Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Remember cripple Nagato outpacing ST to get behind Bee? A healthy Nagato is more than capable of that.


Cripple nagato did that via his summon taking him there....  




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Despite SM, the clones could still be countered by ST and ironically the Preta Path. Clones are absorbent hence Naruto kept them away from that body.


If he absorbs the clone, he runs the risk of turning into stone.  And of course while he's looking or focusing on the clones, he gets blitzed.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> In theory it should've given that SM from a clone does go back to the real one. For some reason this doesn't happen when Naruto is in KCM/BM.


No it shouldn't have since the sage chakra isn't anywhere near the amount of chakra he has in those two forms.  If it was close to that amount then that would make sense.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How does Naruto do much to bodies which forced him (due to shared vision) to use an invisible attack like the Frog Katas?
> Popping and trying frog katas won't work when Shinra Tensei works almost instantly.


Naruto has knowledge on nagato's shared vision and thus would easily destroy nagato's eyes with even sage clones, not even the FRS spamming KCM clones.
And _if we assume Nagato hasn't wasted his shinra tensei in order to counter something else_, nagato wastes a shinra tensei on one the clone and then he's open to getting blitzed or frog katad by another clone transformed as a thrown object.  



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Plus clones won't be effective if you encourage Nagato to use a missile spam or bombs alongside the God Realm.


why would that make a difference against SM clones who can dodge the 3rd fastest shinobi at point blank and counterblitz him, and KCM clones who are as fast as Ei?  What's the best thing missiles have ever been implied of tagging? chouji?  I would agree that the laser has an AoE wide enough to hit SM clones and do enough damage to pop them, however that only takes care of a small arc of clones and the laser does have a noticeable charge time.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Actually the whole mode is shut down. Remember, it shut down SM once; KCM/BM are pure chakra so they can be shut down too.


of course they "can" be shut down, but that isn't what's going to happen based on the abilities naruto has.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> A valid assertion. Your main point hinged on clone tactics whilst ignoring Nagato's answers to them (Demon Realm powers alongside God and Preta) whilst underestimating the ones you do factor in. In addition you've not seemingly considered that these powers can be used at the same time.


I did not ignore Demon realms powers alongside preta and deva's.   My post have taken into account those realms being used to their fullest and simultaneously.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> A canonical counter Nagato has to Naruto's forms are the Preta Path; he shut down one before. SM beat Nagato's Preta Path while Naruto was entering it (so he got exposed to a lot of natural energy).
> However BM/KCM are not safe because they are chakra with no special components. Not even BM is safe, even if it comes from Kurama. Remember V2 for Bee comes from Gyuki and look what happened.


That's irrelevant as Nagato has to grab BM/KCM naruto which is not happening with the later two's speed and sensing and nagato.  



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Think about it: SM Naruto struggled a lot against weaker versions of Nagato's jutsu, so obviously the stronger versions would wreck him; SM can only truly get past the Preta Path.
> KCM Naruto can combat the rest, but like 99.9% of characters in this manga, he gets shut down by the Preta Path.


That's once again irrelevant since it's not a gauntlet of NAgato vs SM NAruto, then Nagato vs KCM Naruto then NAgato vs BM Naruto  all the while naruto can't use any clones while in those forms.

In addition to that, SM Naruto didn't struggle a lot against weaker versions of nagato's jutsu, Naruto was dominating the pain fight at pretty much all times while he was in SM.  Pain didn't even succeed in damaging SM Naruto throughout the entire fight, it was only when naruto reverted to base that the roles were reversed.

Every single one of your explanations is nagato vs 1 naruto in a 1 vs 1 situation with deva path ready to go, however that is not the case in an actual fight since Nagato is going to have to fight multitudes of SM clones, multiple KCM clones and BM Naruto who can protect his SM and KCM clones from nagato or transport them there.

If nagato wastes his shinra tensei on one of narutos transformed sm clones, then naruto throws another one and kata's nagato's head off, or while nagato's focused on that one SM clone, a KCM clone or the real naruto flashblitzes him.  Nagato was barely able to put up preta path in time against V2 Killer bee coming straight at him from the front, how in the world is he going to defend against BM Naruto or KCM Naruto's flash shunshin which is tiers faster than that?




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Put them together and you have the Rinnegan's natural enemy.


Sure Naruto with SM and KCM/BM fused would be the rinnegan's natural enemy, however why does Naruto not being the rinnegan's natural enemy mean that he loses?  Does one have to be the rinnegan's natural enemy in order to beat a rinnegan user?



Joakim3 said:


> Gakido was capable of physically restraining SM Naruto, while Ningendo casually caught SM Jiraiyas punch with hand.... and consensus is Shurado vastly stronger.


- Naruto was confident that he could have broken Gakido's hold any time he wanted to.

- if ningendo did casually catch a full powered SM Jiraiya's punch then he'd be tiers stronger than Deva path, and thus I don't see why shurado would be vastly stronger. 





Joakim3 said:


> Shurado replicated Killer B's Gyuki enhanced throwing feat.. with 1/6 of Nagato's chakra and physically managed to tear off SM Jiraiya arm


that still doesn't really compared to tossing a giant rhino toss into the sky and SM Jiraiya's arm was most likely torn off by the drill hand he used on tsunade or one of some kind of mechanized weapon.



Joakim3 said:


> We simply don't know the upper limit of the paths strength, the only thing we know is the a CONSIDERABLY stronger than your average kage and rival SM users strength/durabilty


i don't think they do rival SM users strength and durability.  Preta path was killed by a single punch, deva path was sent flying and couldn't even stand after blocking a kick.  You don't get those kind of results from having similar durability and strength to SM Naruto.  Asura and ningendo would be the only one that I'd argue would be in the SM users realm of strength.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 16, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> so what?  Nagato was able to rip bee's cloak off for two reasons:
> 1) he could react to bee both mentally and physically and even in that, he barely was able to do it in time
> 2) Bee's lariat makes contact with his opponent for an extended period of time rather than instant contact like a punch or kunai throat slash.



A cripple reacting to a V2 says a lot. The kunai throat slash will be seen through, Itachi was able to keep up with Naruto not using Shunshin, as was Obito and even Madara. All three lacking in supreme speed like Naruto, Naruto himself proves the speed won't be as definitive as you think.


> It doesn't matter if Nagato can sense naruto building up chakra in his feet for the shunshin, that just means he knows that naruto has chakra built up for shunshin.  He doesn't know when naruto is going to actually release that chakra and use the actual shunshin.
> 
> While Nagato was chanelling all his chakra into deva path, even deva was barely able to unleash a shinra tensei against mere KN6 level speed.  Nagato was barely able to put up preta path in time to absorb Bee's lariat.  Neither of those are even in the same tier as Ei let alone KCM or BM Naruto speed.
> 
> ...



If Nagato can sense the enormous amount of chakra Naruto puts on his feet, it will be generally easy to guess Naruto's game. Nagato would effortlessly do that and prepare for it. He doesn't have to wait for aim for Naruto at the last moment.

A single omnidirectional Shinra Tensei puts a stop to your clone argument. God Realm was able to take out a whole bunch, leaving Naruto with two; Nagato's ST would generally be stronger as per se Naruto, faster too.

You do realise not every foe is going to put themselves in a disadvantageous position by only reacting to Naruto's speed at the last moment. If they notice the Shunshin build up, they'll prepare. It just happens Nagato has the most convenient counter.
Though Obito was able to react to Naruto's Shunshin speed with a simple fan. This could be due to the Sharingan, however from how you are describing the speed that should have not been possible.




> Cripple nagato did that via his summon taking him there....



Show me the summon. I mean show me taking him there. A task like this will be hard for you because it didn't do so. Otherwise Nagato won't be been able to react to Bee and _move_ to Naruto being held down.



> If he absorbs the clone, he runs the risk of turning into stone.  And of course while he's looking or focusing on the clones, he gets blitzed.
> 
> 
> No it shouldn't have since the sage chakra isn't anywhere near the amount of chakra he has in those two forms.  If it was close to that amount then that would make sense.



You misunderstand how the stone process works. If he absorbs a full Sage Mode, nothing bad will happen. If he absorbs Naruto's chakra *while Naruto is entering Sage Mode* then he'll turn to stone. Otherwise Naruto won't have tried making sure his _Sage_ clones didn't touch Preta.



> Naruto has knowledge on nagato's shared vision and thus would easily destroy nagato's eyes with even sage clones, not even the FRS spamming KCM clones.
> And _if we assume Nagato hasn't wasted his shinra tensei in order to counter something else_, nagato wastes a shinra tensei on one the clone and then he's open to getting blitzed or frog katad by another clone transformed as a thrown object.



Naruto has knowledge on shared vision, but has shown he still falls for it e.g. Han and Roushi. 

Why would chakra capacity be an issue for Nagato when in a chakra deprived state he was able to fight many Konoha ninja, Naruto _and_ use Rinne Tensei?

Don't confuse God Realm and Nagato, Nagato has other options: Demon Realm's powers would be incredibly helpful. Your "easily destroy" by the virtue of "knowledge" works against you, for Nagato has knowledge on the frog katas thus would just overwhelm Naruto with missiles and God Realm's powers when he can. This is assuming he doesn't compliment it with the array of Ninjutsu he mastered.



> of course they "can" be shut down, but that isn't what's going to happen based on the abilities naruto has.



Actually that's exactly what would happen. Naruto is an oddity here. One set of his abilities (SM) lose to all Nagato's powers except Preta Realm. Yet the other set (Kurama) can perfectly fight all the rest except the Preta Path. 

It may not happen easily, however it will if Naruto recklessly charges a Shunshin against a sensor.



> I did not ignore Demon realms powers alongside preta and deva's.   My post have taken into account those realms being used to their fullest and simultaneously.



You only tackled how each individual power would be taken, not how they'd be handled together. For example why would Nagato meaninglessly use ST when he has Demon Realm for offence?

Why would he need to worry much about chakra when Naruto's attacks refuel him. In addition why would he need to worry when he knows he'll force Naruto into close combat? Bearing in mind in CQC, the Rinnegan's powers tend to dominate.



> In addition to that, SM Naruto didn't struggle a lot against weaker versions of nagato's jutsu, Naruto was dominating the pain fight at pretty much all times while he was in SM.  Pain didn't even succeed in damaging SM Naruto throughout the entire fight, it was only when naruto reverted to base that the roles were reversed.



Sage Naruto did struggle, even after Pain was disadvantaged from the start. Against one power, the God Realm and we didn't even get to see how he'd handle the Demon Realm's offense, a Path which would've allowed God Realm to use ST/BT at meaningful points.

The amount of help Naruto got in that fight automatically shows how well he faired. Here Nagato's can use stronger versions of Pain's jutsu, all of them at the same time and can execute them faster.



> Sure Naruto with SM and KCM/BM fused would be the rinnegan's natural enemy, however why does Naruto not being the rinnegan's natural enemy mean that he loses?  Does one have to be the rinnegan's natural enemy in order to beat a rinnegan user?



Given the fighting style that the Rinnegan provides, it looks like the answer to that is yes. Preta Path forces either Taijutsu or Genjutsu, unless you're lucky like Jiraiya (wherein his Genjutsu would be underrated) then this puts you at a disadvantage.
God Realm, Demon Realm among others make close combat suicidal.


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## ueharakk (Apr 16, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> A cripple reacting to a V2 says a lot. The kunai throat slash will be seen through, Itachi was able to keep up with Naruto not using Shunshin, as was Obito and even Madara. All three lacking in supreme speed like Naruto, Naruto himself proves the speed won't be as definitive as you think.


Being crippled has nothing to do with Nagato's mental reactions or ability to use jutsu that are activated by thought.

All three of those guys are speedsters with Madara being the fastest, then Tobi, then itachi in addition to having the sharingan which canonically allows much slower people to keep up with much faster ones.  

And finally Naruto wasn't even using his Ei-level movement speed against any of those guys.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If Nagato can sense the enormous amount of chakra Naruto puts on his feet, it will be generally easy to guess Naruto's game. Nagato would effortlessly do that and prepare for it. He doesn't have to wait for aim for Naruto at the last moment.


How would Nagato go about doing that?  And if he's focused on Naruto with his chakra built up in his feet, he's wide open to getting blitzed by other narutos SM or KCM or the real.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> A single omnidirectional Shinra Tensei puts a stop to your clone argument. God Realm was able to take out a whole bunch, leaving Naruto with two; Nagato's ST would generally be stronger as per se Naruto, faster too.


God realm took out mere base clones that were point blank around him.  BM Naruto can protect his clones with his chakra shroud, SM clones are more durable than base clones, KCM Naruto is durable to take nagato's shinra tenseis with no damage, and they can brace themselves with chakra arms to avoid taking damage like base naruto did in canon.  

And then after nagato wastes his shinra tensei doing that, he has no defense against counterblitz or the same frog kata clone transformation thing.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You do realise not every foe is going to put themselves in a disadvantageous position by only reacting to Naruto's speed at the last moment. If they notice the Shunshin build up, they'll prepare. It just happens Nagato has the most convenient counter.
> Though Obito was able to react to Naruto's Shunshin speed with a simple fan. This could be due to the Sharingan, however from how you are describing the speed that should have not been possible.


But how exactly can nagato prepare for that, especially when he's up against a multitude of other clones who can potentially oneshot him and are fast as hell and are being protected by the BM chakra cloak?

And Naruto didn't use shunshin against Obito as not only does his KCM shunshin not blow up the ground when he uses it, but Naruto wouldn't have been able make a rasengan midshunshin if he was moving at that speed.





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Show me the summon. I mean show me taking him there. A task like this will be hard for you because it didn't do so. Otherwise Nagato won't be been able to react to Bee and _move_ to Naruto being held down.


That's like saying "prove that KCM Naruto is faster than Konohomaru".  I can't show a panel that proves that's what happened, but based on the evidence we have in the manga KCM Naruto being faster is the most plausible explanation.  
It's the same thing with cripple nagato.  Even after he becomes prime nagato, Kabuto still says he has mobility issues, and while he is crippled, Nagato needs itachi in order to help him walk and even tells Naruto that he can't move on his own.

Based on the fact that the chameleon is and has shown to be much more mobile than nagato and is right next to nagato's location I think it's easily more plausible that the chameleon transported him there rather than nagato moving there himself.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You misunderstand how the stone process works. If he absorbs a full Sage Mode, nothing bad will happen. If he absorbs Naruto's chakra *while Naruto is entering Sage Mode* then he'll turn to stone. Otherwise Naruto won't have tried making sure his _Sage_ clones didn't touch Preta.


Pa says Preta absorbed too much senjutsu, which is why he underwent frog petrification.  I don't understand how absorbing naruto's sage chakra while he is entering the mode would differ from when he is in sage mode.  In order to enter sage mode or create sage chakra, you have to mix perfectly equal portions of natural energy and your own chakra.  Naruto has the balance down perfectly, thus all preta path is doing is absorbing the same senjutsu chakra that the SM Naruto normally uses.

And naruto didn't use his clone against preta path because it wouldn't have turned him into stone as we saw it required an entire entry of sage mode in order to turn preta into stone. Naruto had used 2 FRS, whatever chakra his sage clones had would have been insiginificant.  




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Naruto has knowledge on shared vision, but has shown he still falls for it e.g. Han and Roushi.


How does that instance show Naruto has a lack of knowledge or combat prowess regarding shared vision?  The only way he could eliminate shared vision of the paths is to actually defeat the paths, which is what he was trying to do.

Against nagato it's the same thing except nagato's shared vision entities are not as combat worthy as the jinks.  Naruto's clones easily deal with any of Nagato's shared vision entities, the only one that would give him problems would maybe be cerebrus, but then again it got incapacitated by a FRS.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Why would chakra capacity be an issue for Nagato when in a chakra deprived state he was able to fight many Konoha ninja, Naruto _and_ use Rinne Tensei?


How was Nagato in a chakra deprived state against Konoha?  Only his body is emaciated, his actual chakra was not said to be deprived, in addition to that, he had preta path constantly absorbing craptons of jutsu while fighting in konoha, so he was constantly being replenished that way.  Though now that I say that, I concede this point as fighting a chakra monster like naruto will most plausibly replenish nagato's chakra throughout the fight.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Don't confuse God Realm and Nagato, Nagato has other options: Demon Realm's powers would be incredibly helpful. Your "easily destroy" by the virtue of "knowledge" works against you, for Nagato has knowledge on the frog katas thus would just overwhelm Naruto with missiles and God Realm's powers when he can. This is assuming he doesn't compliment it with the array of Ninjutsu he mastered.


um.... multiple sage mode clones, some disguised as FRS or projectiles coming into nagato... and if nagato wants to focus on overwhelming sage clones he gets blitzed by the real or KCM clones.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Actually that's exactly what would happen. Naruto is an oddity here. One set of his abilities (SM) lose to all Nagato's powers except Preta Realm. Yet the other set (Kurama) can perfectly fight all the rest except the Preta Path.


SM doesn't lose to all nagato's powers except preta realm, nagato needs deva path in order to beat SM Naruto.

Preta path doesn't counter KCM and BM Naruto's shunshin blitzes and you once again are just generalizing and ignoring the fact that it's all of these modes going against nagato at once.





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You only tackled how each individual power would be taken, not how they'd be handled together. For example why would Nagato meaninglessly use ST when he has Demon Realm for offence?


um... you yourself posed shinra tensei as the ends all defensive move for nagato to bail him out of a pinch.  However naruto can generate pinch after pinch situation against Nagato as I have demonstrated throughout our debate.  

And demon realm at best will keep sage clones at bay, in which case nagato gets blitzed by KCM clones or BM Naruto or forced or transformed sage clones or sage clones delivered by chakra arms.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Why would he need to worry much about chakra when Naruto's attacks refuel him. In addition why would he need to worry when he knows he'll force Naruto into close combat? Bearing in mind in CQC, the Rinnegan's powers tend to dominate.


You can't simply generalize and say "rinnegan's powers tend to dominate in CQC" you'd have to show how it does.  And if Nagato engages a naruto in CQC he gets blitzed by other narutos or frog katad by other narutos or blitzed by the very naruto he is trying to engage considering his reaction time against bee.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sage Naruto did struggle, even after Pain was disadvantaged from the start. Against one power, the God Realm and we didn't even get to see how he'd handle the Demon Realm's offense, a Path which would've allowed God Realm to use ST/BT at meaningful points.


How did Naruto struggle against deva realm or any of the paths?  Naruto wasn't even damaged by him.  It took a combination of deva and preta to first take naruto out of sage mode in order for them to beat naruto.  



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The amount of help Naruto got in that fight automatically shows how well he faired. Here Nagato's can use stronger versions of Pain's jutsu, all of them at the same time and can execute them faster.


so basically you retract your statement about Pain giving SM Naruto trouble since you can't bring up any points or feats of him doing so?  And SM Naruto was as equally gimped in that fight due to him not being able to fuse with ma and pa, and most of the 'help' in the fight was intel about pains abilities which naruto already has in this thread and doesn't factor into the comparison.

The rest about nagato being able to use stronger versions of pain's jutsus is just a resume A>B>C logic post.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Given the fighting style that the Rinnegan provides, it looks like the answer to that is yes. Preta Path forces either Taijutsu or Genjutsu, unless you're lucky like Jiraiya (wherein his Genjutsu would be underrated) then this puts you at a disadvantage.
> God Realm, Demon Realm among others make close combat suicidal.


Brotherin going by this logic, Hashirama and EMS Madara + 100% Kurama going at Nagato 3 vs 1 would still lose to him since they come across the same problem as naruto.


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