# Itachi vs. Superman :maybe



## Nikushimi (Jun 17, 2013)

The new Man of Steel movie version, obviously.

*Location:* Metropolis
*Distance:* 10m
*Knowledge:* They both know they are fighting superhumans. Nothing specific, though.
*Mindset:* In-character
*Conditions/Restrictions:*
-Edo Itachi, good eyesight, *no regen/immortality*.

*Scenario 2:* Itachi vs. Zod (after acclimating to Earth's environment).

*Scenario 3:* Itachi vs. Zod's lackies (the chick and the juggernaut, wearing their special masks).


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 17, 2013)

Lex luthor solos


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## Expelsword (Jun 17, 2013)

Does Superman start the fight looking directly at him?
This battle lasts less than a second in all cases.


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## trance (Jun 17, 2013)

If Itachi can't put them in a genjutsu *as soon as* the matches start, he gets torn in half.


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## Chad (Jun 18, 2013)

Lazers said:


> If Itachi can't put them in a genjutsu *as soon as* the matches start, he gets torn in half.



Trance, genjutsu doesn't work on non-Naruto characters unless energy is equalized.


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## trance (Jun 18, 2013)

Bluenote said:


> Trance, genjutsu doesn't work on non-Naruto characters unless energy is equalized.



But that's what the OP might have wanted, otherwise Itachi has absolutely no chance.


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## feebas_factor (Jun 18, 2013)

Meh. Supes may win, purely due to some speed advantage.



Expelsword said:


> Does Superman start the fight looking directly at him?
> This battle lasts less than a second in all cases.



Itachi can summon Susanoo fast enough to block lightning, and it can easily shrug off a small-building level attack like nothing (assuming you're referring to Superman's heat vision). Heck, it blocked megaton-level attacks with its shield, which is actually more than this version of Superman has ever been shown to dish out.



Bluenote said:


> Trance, genjutsu doesn't work on non-Naruto characters unless energy is equalized.



I assumed equalized was the default, but either way, OP probably should have specified.


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## Linkofone (Jun 18, 2013)

Why Edo Itachi? Why not healthy not sic- ...

nevermind.


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## Saitomaru (Jun 18, 2013)

feebas_factor said:


> Itachi can summon Susanoo fast enough to block lightning



Last I checked this was disputed. One side claimed that he reacted to it, the other side said he reacted to Sasgay's babbling. I'd lean toward the latter purely because lightning timing would put Itachi above pretty much everyone in his verse. And someone did a calc for MoS Supes's Heatvision, not sure if you saw that or if its results are even relevant.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jun 18, 2013)

It really wouldn't.

Technically Pein's dodging of FRS is multiple times faster as a reaction feat than Itachi reacting to lightning.

People need to remember that it's hundreds of meters above him, so he therefore has hundreds of meters to react over.


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## Tacocat (Jun 18, 2013)

Darth's right. Lightning timing can even be subsonic, depending on the logistics of the feat.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jun 18, 2013)

Very true.

Lightning timing isn't the super fast speed feat most people make it out to be.

It can be, but it's certainly not the most often outcome.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 18, 2013)

Bluenote said:


> Trance, genjutsu doesn't work on non-Naruto characters unless energy is equalized.



I was under the impression that energy was equivocated by default.



feebas_factor said:


> Meh. Supes may win, purely due to some speed advantage.



IIRC, Supes was clocked at mach 24+ in MoS. Current OBD calcs have Itachi at mach 40. 



> I assumed equalized was the default, but either way, OP probably should have specified.



Equalized (energy equivalence or whatever you want to call it, that is).



Saitomaru said:


> Last I checked this was disputed. One side claimed that he reacted to it, the other side said he reacted to Sasgay's babbling.



He reacted to the lightning. Anyone disputing that is ignoring the fact that we see Kirin flash on Itachi's face as it descends before we see Susano'o anywhere. He also still had his Mangekyou Sharingan activated, which he didn't after switching on Susano'o.



> I'd lean toward the latter purely because lightning timing would put Itachi above pretty much everyone in his verse.



See below:



Nightbringer said:


> It really wouldn't.
> 
> Technically Pein's dodging of FRS is multiple times faster as a reaction feat than Itachi reacting to lightning.
> 
> People need to remember that it's hundreds of meters above him, so he therefore has hundreds of meters to react over.



^This. This so much.

The timeframe given for Kirin's strike time is .001 seconds, putting Itachi's reaction time somewhere lower than that.

That's not anywhere near as absurd as the mach 40 bullshit that is being taken seriously these days.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 18, 2013)

I was under the impression solar energy couldn't be equivocated to chakra shimi


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## Nikushimi (Jun 18, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> I was under the impression solar energy couldn't be equivocated to chakra shimi



It's just meaningless world mechanics. That stuff is completely frivolous and has no bearing on a comparison of their capabilities.

Genjutsu is basically a mindfuck; it doesn't really matter how it's supposed to work on the body.


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## feebas_factor (Jun 18, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Last I checked this was disputed. One side claimed that he reacted to it, the other side said he reacted to Sasgay's babbling. I'd lean toward the latter purely because lightning timing would put Itachi above pretty much everyone in his verse. And someone did a calc for MoS Supes's Heatvision, not sure if you saw that or if its results are even relevant.



Yep. In fact I was only other person to post in that thread  (did a quick TNT conversion). 

As for the lightning feat... yeah, it does bear mentioning (as posters above did) that "blocking lightning" here is literally just blocking a bolt from across its full distance down from the sky; still fast, but still a far cry from legit lightning-timing feats that actually take place over standard combat distances.



Nikushimi said:


> IIRC, Supes was clocked at mach 24+ in MoS. Current OBD calcs have Itachi at mach 40.



Jeez, that friggin' calc boost. 

I believe throwing Zod into orbit was potentially granting Superman triple-digit-mach attack speed, but that's assuming it's valid that velocities resulting from an attack can be directly related to attack velocity itself (somewhat debateable topic in itself).

If so, Supes could have a substantial speed advantage; if not enough to blitz, then at least enough to run circles around Itachi.

Then again, I haven't actually seen the movie... so I actually can't really even judge if such a calc is accurate or not. 



Unlosing Ranger said:


> I was under the impression solar energy couldn't be equivocated to chakra shimi



Depends on the application in question. Genjutsu is just messing with energy flows to mess up your senses/mind, so (as far as I know) it's always been permitted fairly liberally with equivocation.


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## Tacocat (Jun 18, 2013)

The gravity engine is what was stated to be mach 24+.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 18, 2013)

feebas_factor said:


> Jeez, that friggin' calc boost.
> 
> I believe throwing Zod into orbit was potentially granting Superman triple-digit-mach attack speed, but that's assuming it's valid that velocities resulting from an attack can be directly related to attack velocity itself (somewhat debateable topic in itself).
> 
> ...



I don't recall Supes throwing Zod into space.

I thought they just kind of flew into space together while they were fighting.



SuperTacocat said:


> The gravity engine is what was stated to be mach 24+.



Wasn't Clark flying along with it or something?

Lol, I've already forgotten 90% of the movie.

I really should've gotten my money back.


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## Tacocat (Jun 18, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I don't recall Supes throwing Zod into space.
> 
> I thought they just kind of flew into space together while they were fighting.


Supes threw Zod into a satellite from Earth, which is why they started fighting in space.



> Wasn't Clark flying along with it or something?


No, it landed in India and IIRC he was still in Metropolis. In any case, he'd still be faster than it with his casual feats.



> Lol, I've already forgotten 90% of the movie.
> 
> I really should've gotten my money back.


Did you not like it?


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 18, 2013)

feebas_factor said:


> Depends on the application in question. Genjutsu is just messing with energy flows to mess up your senses/mind, so (as far as I know) it's always been permitted fairly liberally with equivocation.



So Itachi can genjutsu the sun?


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## Shiorin (Jun 18, 2013)

Lightning timer Itachi one-shots Supes with Amaterasu then seals him away forever with Susano'o sword. No chance. Real. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Actually,


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jun 18, 2013)

I dunno, does the sun have a brain? 

Seriously, the fact that people ever even tried to make such an argument is pretty asinine and retarded.

It's on par with Bleach intang and invisibility.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 18, 2013)

Nightbringer said:


> I dunno, does the sun have a brain?
> 
> Seriously, the fact that people ever even tried to make such an argument is pretty asinine and retarded.
> 
> It's on par with Bleach intang and invisibility.



Itachi is sun level for real he can use his black fires and engluf de sunz 
Who was the guy that said that, some guy with puppets for a sig?
Oh man I need to see that again just so I can laugh at it.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 18, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> Did you not like it?



Man of Steel?

Well, I generally don't like terrible movies. So yeah, I didn't care for it.

Poor scripting + shoddy acting. Cool action scenes, but that's about it.

It felt like an extremely-high-budget adaptation of a Superman fan fiction. With virtually 100% of the budget poured into the visual effects and zero attention paid to anything else.


Superman: Crash this alien engine into that alien engine and you'll create a-"

Scientist: -a singularity! Of course! That plan makes PERFECT SENSE AND ISN'T OVERSIMPLISTIC OR SCIENTIFICALLY DESTITUTE IN THE SLIGHTEST!"

---

Zod: I'm a complete dick and I'm gonna incinerate this innocent family with my eye lasers!

Superman: DON'T DO IT, ANAKIN. I HAVE THE HIGH GROUND.

Zod: *does it*

Superman: *necksnap*

Zod: *dead*

Superman: I JUST KILLED A DANGEROUS SOCIOPATH WHO POSED AN IMMEDIATE THREAT TO ME AND MY ENTIRE PLANET. WORLD'S SMALLEST VIOLIN, PLAY ME A SYMPHONY WHILE I RELEASE MY PRIMAL UCHIHA ANGST BY SCREAMING.


And Zod generally being a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).

I mean, I could go on a rant and complain about any number of other things that were wrong with Man of Steel, but that would require time and effort I just don't feel invested enough to put forward right now.

I think I'll just settle for calling it a terrible movie.



Unlosing Ranger said:


> So Itachi can genjutsu the sun?



The sun has no mind to fuck.



Unlosing Ranger said:


> Itachi is sun level for real he can use his black fires and engluf de sunz
> Who was the guy that said that, some guy with puppets for a sig?
> Oh man I need to see that again just so I can laugh at it.



Yata Mirror can tank the Death Star's laser. 

I wonder who the idiot was that said that.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 18, 2013)

so Niku hated the movie, hence this thread ? 




> Seriously, the fact that people ever even tried to make such an argument is pretty asinine and retarded.
> 
> It's on par with Bleach intang and invisibility.


^



anyway





> -Edo Itachi, good eyesight, *no regen/immortality*.


Itachis reactions are Mach 40+, distance is 10m .. so at this distance Supes needs to be over 10 times faster, i.e. Mach 400+ to punch I-man before he can erect Susanoo or dodge .. 1 punch should put him down

whether he is Mach 400+ or not we'll probably only know for sure when someone does a proper speed calc with timeframes and all


if he isn't then he won't be able to get through Susanoo .. but he can still pick it up and throw it into orbit ?


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## Nikushimi (Jun 18, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> so Niku hated the movie, hence this thread ?



Nah.

I didn't make any threads after Dark Knight Rises and I thought that was worse.

This is just the usual troublemaking Itachi thread. 



> anyway
> Itachis reactions are Mach 40+, distance is 10m .. so at this distance Supes needs to be over 10 times faster, i.e. Mach 400+ to punch I-man before he can erect Susanoo or dodge .. 1 punch should put him down
> 
> whether he is Mach 400+ or not we'll probably only know for sure when someone does a proper speed calc with timeframes and all
> ...



Tsukuyomi, GG?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 18, 2013)

> Tsukuyomi, GG?


he'd have to make eye contact with someone much faster then him 


also, I don't think IC Itachi opens with Tsukuyomi


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## Nikushimi (Jun 18, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> he'd have to make eye contact with someone much faster then him
> 
> 
> also, I don't think IC Itachi opens with Tsukuyomi



If he's being picked up and thrown into orbit, I think IC Itachi will do whatever it takes to not let that happen.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 18, 2013)

but Superman can pick him up from behind 


no eye contact there


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 18, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> The sun has no mind to fuck.



Do you want me to arrange that match then?
Because I could.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Yeah I was generally upset about the desecration of Superman's character in MoS.  Le sigh.  Man of Steel?  More like Man of Punches Stuff Until It Needs More Punching.

Anyways, in the other thread Super-Punch Man was casually above Mach 300.  So, he probably has enough speed to blitz Itachi.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

what desecration?


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## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

> Superman: I JUST KILLED A DANGEROUS SOCIOPATH WHO POSED AN IMMEDIATE THREAT TO ME AND MY ENTIRE PLANET. WORLD'S SMALLEST VIOLIN, PLAY ME A SYMPHONY WHILE I RELEASE MY PRIMAL UCHIHA ANGST BY SCREAMING.



you realise that isn't even a slightly valid criticism


superman is pretty much just a nice guy who's been raised on a farm. sure, he has superpowers, but he hasn't ever even been in a fight because it was too dangerous for him to cut loose before the kryptonians came. he's a virtual stranger to violence

actual soldiers experience severe post-traumatic stress after they take a life

and you're gonna complain that he screamed after snapping someone's neck?


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> what desecration?



Oh Luc I don't want to rant about what I disliked about the movie in here.  I shouldn't have even brought it up but I agree with Niku.  My major gripe was just that I don't feel the movie did an apt job of convincing me that Zod needed to die and that Superman had to kill him before exhausting every possibility like Superman ACTUALLY does in the comics.  Superman stories are supposed to inspire and I left that movie depressed as shit.

And I felt the scream was contrived and overdramatic.  I get the point of it.  However, my brother and friend attempted to counter my argument against killing Zod with "but that scream man.  He felt what he did."  I don't like the fact that Superman gets off clean with killing another Kryptonian (basically becoming one in the process even though he was trying to display that he is human).


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## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

dude

zod was like an inch of movement away from incinerating a family

supes was desperately straining to keep him in place and failing, because zod is as strong as he is

if he moved upwards, downwards, sideways, or generally risked loosening his grip in any way, they might've died 

i mean

what did you want from him?


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

We can talk about it more in pm's or vp's if you want Luc.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

no just post here i highly doubt niku minds



> And I felt the scream was contrived and overdramatic.



w/e

killing people hurts



> I don't like the fact that Superman gets off clean with killing another Kryptonian (basically becoming one in the process even though he was trying to display that he is human).



becoming one what?

becoming a kryptonian?

he was always a kryptonian....


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> dude
> 
> zod was like an inch of movement away from incinerating a family
> 
> ...



Put his hands over Zod's eyes maybe.  Like Superman would do in the comics.  Plus, Superman just proved that he was stronger by besting him in combat.  Then, we harp back on Jor-El's speech about overcoming limits...etc.  They set up these grand life-lessons and rules about what Superman is supposed to be all so he can shit over all of the premises at the end of the movie.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> no just post here i highly doubt niku minds
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The point of him destroying the Genesis Chamber and Zod was the he was severing his ties with his birth planet/heritage.  However, by killing Zod because of what he believes to be correct, he is basically doing what Zod did at the start of the movie.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> Put his hands over Zod's eyes maybe.  Like Superman would do in the comics.  Plus, Superman just proved that he was stronger by besting him in combat.  Then, we harp back on Jor-El's speech about overcoming limits...etc.  They set up these grand life-lessons and rules about what Superman is supposed to be all so he can shit over all of the premises at the end of the movie.



dude, they were clearly pretty much even. supes was just more experienced with superpowered combat, and more imaginative

also he had _both his hands_ around zod's neck and zod has still managing to slowly turn towards them

if he'd removed one hand to put it over zod's eyes, that would clearly have given zod more than enough freedom to kill them

he had _no choice_


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## Saitomaru (Jun 18, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> It's just meaningless world mechanics. That stuff is completely frivolous and has no bearing on a comparison of their capabilities.
> 
> *Genjutsu is basically a mindfuck*; it doesn't really matter how it's supposed to work on the body.



A really shitty mindfuck.



Nikushimi said:


> Man of Steel?
> 
> Well, I generally don't like terrible movies. So yeah, I didn't care for it.
> 
> ...



I completely disagree.



Punchsplosion said:


> Oh Luc I don't want to rant about what I disliked about the movie in here.  I shouldn't have even brought it up but I agree with Niku.  My major gripe was just that I don't feel the movie did an apt job of convincing me that Zod needed to die and that Superman had to kill him before exhausting every possibility like Superman ACTUALLY does in the comics.  Superman stories are supposed to inspire and I left that movie depressed as shit.
> 
> And I felt the scream was contrived and overdramatic.  I get the point of it.  However, my brother and friend attempted to counter my argument against killing Zod with "but that scream man.  He felt what he did."  I don't like the fact that Superman gets off clean with killing another Kryptonian (basically becoming one in the process even though he was trying to display that he is human).



I liked the fact that Superman killed Zod. It tied up the loose end of him coming back and gave Superman a more "realistic" feel. I'm going to miss Zod though.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Yeah killing people hurts.  What about that little story that Alan Moore did back in 86 about Superman killing Mr. Mxy?  Ya know?  Where he says that killing people is wrong, especially for Superman.  And it fucks him up enough to go into a chamber with gold kryptonite that permanently strips him of his powers as penance for doing so.  I do not like seeing Superman get off morally for wasting some dude.  That scream represents what he goes through after that moment?  Well, too bad they ruined it with one of the campiest scenes from a comic book movie literally 5 seconds later.


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## Əyin (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> Oh Luc I don't want to rant about what I disliked about the movie in here.  I shouldn't have even brought it up but I agree with Niku.  My major gripe was just that I don't feel the movie did an apt job of convincing me that Zod needed to die and that Superman had to kill him before exhausting every possibility like Superman ACTUALLY does in the comics.  Superman stories are supposed to inspire and I left that movie depressed as shit.
> 
> And I felt the scream was contrived and overdramatic.



You realize that Superman had no choice but to kill him in such desperate situation like that. Zod will continue his vengeance to Supes and humanity no matter what happens even if Superman manages to subdue him. 

Depressed? I say reality ensues. Inspiring? in reality, it did not work like that, it only cause fears.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> dude, they were clearly pretty much even. supes was just more experienced with superpowered combat, and more imaginative
> 
> also he had _both his hands_ around zod's neck and zod has still managing to slowly turn towards them
> 
> ...



Sorry, but after what I saw displayed by Superman in the movies he is more than fast enough to place his hands over Zod's eyes before Zod could incinerate them.  Additionally, he is obviously strong enough to force Zod's head away from the people because he breaks Zod's fucking neck.

And once again, I bring up the point about Jor-El saying Kal could overcome his limitations.  So, that only applies to every other scene in the movie except for this one time.  Sorry.  I disagree with the writers call to make Superman kill someone and literally suffer no ramifications.  Maybe they will address it in the sequel.  But for now.  I didn't enjoy it.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

AntiReality said:


> You realize that Superman had no choice but to kill him in such desperate situation like that. Zod will continue his vengeance to Supes and humanity no matter what happens even if Superman manages to subdue him.
> 
> Depressed? I say reality ensues. Inspiring? in reality, it did not work like that, it only cause fears.



I would rather him have pulled an animated DCU move and had him lobotomize Zod than outright killing him.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

My point is that the writers failed to capture what makes Superman who he is.  I also hated Amy Adams acting in the movie and the forced intimate scene between two characters who I felt had NO chemistry whatsoever.  I dislike the violent way they did the non-linear storytelling of Clark's past.  I hate shaky cam.

The action was amazing.  Acting was great from most of the cast.  The score was ridiculous.  However, that was all overshadowed by how much I disliked what the writers did with the plot of the movie.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> Yeah killing people hurts.  What about that little story that Alan Moore did back in 86 about Superman killing Mr. Mxy?  Ya know?  Where he says that killing people is wrong, especially for Superman.  And it fucks him up enough to go into a chamber with gold kryptonite that permanently strips him of his powers as penance for doing so.  I do not like seeing Superman get off morally for wasting some dude.  That scream represents what he goes through after that moment?  Well, too bad they ruined it with one of the campiest scenes from a comic book movie literally 5 seconds later.



that's 100% your own problem

he was put in an impossible position and there is no court in the entire world that would convict him of murder for killing zod before he killed an innocent family

"get off morally", my ass



Punchsplosion said:


> Sorry, but after what I saw displayed by Superman in the movies he is more than fast enough to place his hands over Zod's eyes before Zod could incinerate them.  Additionally, he is obviously strong enough to force Zod's head away from the people because he breaks Zod's fucking neck.
> 
> And once again, I bring up the point about Jor-El saying Kal could overcome his limitations.  So, that only applies to every other scene in the movie except for this one time.  Sorry.  I disagree with the writers call to make Superman kill someone and literally suffer no ramifications.  Maybe they will address it in the sequel.  But for now.  I didn't enjoy it.


what is it with you, dude?

superman and zod were fighting evenly for like 10 minutes with neither proving faster than the other, but you're suddenly pretending superman is fast enough to get his hands on zod's eyes before zod _moves his head slightly to the right_?

and breaking his neck was the only permanent solution, he couldn't keep forcing his head away forever, he was pretty much completely spent after having to overcome that gravity field and fight zod

and blah blah overcome his limitations, guess what, clark overcame his limitations about a hundredfold by destroying that terraforming engine, and he managed to save metropolis from a bunch of kryptonians

your incessant harping on about how he didn't overcome his limitations and do something besides killing zod is wrong-headed and based entirely on a narrow conception of what "overcoming limitations" actually means

pretty sure doing what's necessary to save lives even if it's going to tear you up inside is "overcoming limitations", too

your "suffer no ramifications" is such total bullshit. what did you expect, did you expect him to get tried and sentenced to exile from earth? did you expect him to kill himself? he's gonna live with what he did and that's a ramification


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> that's 100% your own problem
> 
> he was put in an impossible position and there is no court in the entire world that would convict him of murder for killing zod before he killed an innocent family
> 
> ...



This is why I didn't want to discuss this hear Luc because you are getting aggressive.  I am simply explaining my distaste for the movie and why I feel that way.

To quickly address some of your points.

I expected them to show the emotional journey that Superman had to go through instead of feeling the need to include a scene where some dumb bitch tells her commanding officer that "He is kinda hot."  Lulz.

And once again, he couldn't overcome his limitations to stop Zod without killing him?  Okay.  Whatever.

How about the fact that he was fast enough to get behind Zod and secure a necklock on his foe?

The point is I don't feel like the writers cared about doing anything other than making Superman kill someone.  They didn't care to have him find a creative way around it.  They wanted to do it and took no efforts to allow the character to be who he truly is.  Additionally, I feel they contradicted their own established premises on what Clark was trying to achieve by killing Zod without giving me the catharsis that I would have liked to experience.  So, yes I walked out depressed about the movie I have been most excited to see in the past 5 years.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

And did I say it wasn't my own problem?  The whole point of the conversation was you wanting to know why I didn't like it.  You talking to me like this is an exercise in justification for why you enjoyed it.  Well, good for you.


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## Ulti (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> I would rather him have pulled an animated DCU move and had him lobotomize Zod than outright killing him.



Superman lobotomizing in the DCAU was portrayed as how far off the rails he was in that reality. That would of been even worse


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Even more off-topic Luc...but I love your avatar.  I'm in the middle of Season 4 right now of SN and it is amazing!


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## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

> I expected them to show the emotional journey that Superman had to go through instead of feeling the need to include a scene where some dumb bitch tells her commanding officer that "He is kinda hot." Lulz.



yeah, that one's on them



> And once again, he couldn't overcome his limitations to stop Zod without killing him? Okay. Whatever.



that situation was objectively impossible to resolve without risking flash-frying four innocent people, get over it



> How about the fact that he was fast enough to get behind Zod and secure a necklock on his foe?



because he'd just pile-driven him into that station floor and zod was stunned, ffs



> The point is I don't feel like the writers cared about doing anything other than making Superman kill someone.



whatever that means



> They didn't care to have him find a creative way around it.



_there are no creative ways around it_



> They wanted to do it and took no efforts to allow the character to be who he truly is.



he made every effort to stop zod non-fatally

he managed to get rid of the other kryptonians without fatalities

he was in an impossible situation

it's a much braver move to have him kill zod 



> Additionally, I feel they contradicted their own established premises on what Clark was trying to achieve by killing Zod without giving me the catharsis that I would have liked to experience. So, yes I walked out depressed about the movie I have been most excited to see in the past 5 years.



that couldn't be more subjective if it tried


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## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> And did I say it wasn't my own problem?  The whole point of the conversation was you wanting to know why I didn't like it.  You talking to me like this is an exercise in justification for why you enjoyed it.  Well, good for you.



>amateur psychoanalysis

well done



Punchsplosion said:


> Even more off-topic Luc...but I love your avatar.  I'm in the middle of Season 4 right now of SN and it is amazing!



good stuff


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Hunteri Heroci said:


> Superman lobotomizing in the DCAU was portrayed as how far off the rails he was in that reality. That would of been even worse



Really?  Because the first instance of it was with Justice Lord Superman and he did it to stop Doomsday.  The second instance of it was with regular Supes when he was trying to stop Doomsday.  I saw it as an act of desperation against a soulless monster.  And he still didn't kill his foe.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

>lobotomising someone is better than killing them
>you can do anything to someone as long as you don't kill them


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> yeah, that one's on them
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sigh....Luc it's intentionally subjective.  It's my own opinion.  It's why I started the sentence with "I feel..."

There are no creative ways around it because the writer intentionally wrote the story that way.  I just didn't enjoy it.  Get irritated with me all you like.  I'm entitled to my own opinion.  Just as you are entitled to your entirely subjective one.


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> >lobotomising someone is better than killing them
> >you can do anything to someone as long as you don't kill them



Wow...thanks for that grand leap in flawed logic.  I wasn't attempting to go down that path.  Just saying lobotomizing a foe that could potentially heal from it or use the advanced tech that Superman could eventually piece together given what he knows about other alien races existing would be better than killing him.  There is always the threat that Zod would come back.  However, that is the dilemma of Superman.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

> I would rather him have pulled an animated DCU move and had him lobotomize Zod than outright killing him.



there is pretty much no 'grand leap' there



> Just saying lobotomizing a foe that could potentially heal from it or use the advanced tech that Superman could eventually piece together given what he knows about other alien races existing would be better than killing him.



unless i'm missing something, a lobotomy requires at least some precision and focus

supes is a guy from a farm who's worked menial jobs all his life

exactly how would he have the knowledge to do a lobotomy


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

I didn't say that Superman was A LOT faster than Zod.  Just that he got drop on him during that pitched air battle enough to get behind him.  He overcame Zod's strength when he snapped his neck.  So, he could have done so slowly with enough motivation.  He also could have covered Zod's eyes or attempted to intercept Zod's heat vision with his own.  Just some things I thought could have been done.  Or since Zod was entirely focused on using that power, just lift him into the air by his neck.


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> there is pretty much no 'grand leap' there
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Really?  Because he didn't display medical knowledge earlier in the film and precision with his HV when the machine attacked Lois ?  And he couldn't possibly try to overcome his own limitations by seeking a solution outside of breaking his opponents neck?  He couldn't have tried the heat vision thing even if it didn't work?  Ya know, just to distract Zod into stopping his HV.  Which would have been more powerful for me, if he had even tried anything else before just snapping someone's neck.  He couldn't just lift Zod and choke him until he passed out from lack of blood flow?


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Once again Luc.  We are of differing opinions.  I'm letting this drop.


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

I mean, Lois sure was lucky that Superman didn't fry her insides when she got stabbed by that machine because he is SO imprecise.  But yeah.  He's just a farmer.  Anyways, I'm done.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> Really?  Because he didn't display medical knowledge earlier in the film with Lois when the machine attacked her?  And he couldn't possibly try to overcome his own limitations by seeking a solution outside of breaking his opponents neck?  He couldn't have tried the heat vision thing even if it didn't work?  Ya know, just to distract Zod into stopping his HV.  Which would have been more powerful for me, if he had even tried anything else before just snapping someone's neck.  He couldn't just lift Zod and choke him until he passed out from lack of blood flow?



>burning a wound shut is "medical knowledge"
>burning a wound shut means he can do brain surgery

your point holds no water, give it up

he was choking him already, that whole time, ffs. he wasn't doing anything. 

and he was slowly losing in strength while trying to pull his head away too. if he tried to pull zod up he risked giving him room to move/changing the angle of his laser vision



Punchsplosion said:


> Once again Luc.  We are of differing opinions.  I'm letting this drop.



whatever



Punchsplosion said:


> I mean, Lois sure was lucky that Superman didn't fry her insides when she got stabbed by that machine because he is SO imprecise.  But yeah.  He's just a farmer.  Anyways, I'm done.



are you seriously trying get snippy with your god-awful point

are you seriously pretending that because he was able to use his heat vision lightly, that he could perform a lobotomy

holy shit realise how retarded that is


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Luc she was hemorrhaging internally.  He had to cauterize an internal wound.  He actually recognized that she was and knew what to do to stop it.  But it's a grand leap to assume he COULD try to do something like that.  Or ya know?  Just hit Zod with heat vision in the head, making him stop his own heat vision.

Whatever, you can be an insulting prick all you want about my points.  I haven't been an asshole in this debate and you are starting to because you are getting frustrated.  Way to be mature.  You are displaying a reason why the OBD has become a shithole as of late because of arrogant posters with shit attitudes about other peoples opinions.  I didn't want to get into this discussion.  Yet, you wanted to in this forum so you could kill some time and feel better about yourself while trying to invalidate someone else's problems that they had with source of entertainment.  We are seriously done now, Luc.  I will kindly defer to my previous position of "I didn't enjoy the movie."


----------



## Saitomaru (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> I didn't say that Superman was A LOT faster than Zod.



He'd need to be a good deal faster to take one of his arms off of Zod and move it in front of Zod's face before Zod moved his now less-restricted head slightly to the right.



> Just that he got drop on him during that pitched air battle enough to get behind him.



Zod was dazed, that's how he got behind him and got him into a headlock.



> He overcame Zod's strength when he snapped his neck.



As I said before, it doesn't take much strength at all to snap a person's neck. Especially not if they're straining and trying to turn their head in a direction. That makes it easier since you can use their force against them.



> So, he could have done so slowly with enough motivation.



He was straining to keep Zod from turning his head an inch to the right.



> He also could have covered Zod's eyes



Already explained why this is bullshit.



> or attempted to intercept Zod's heat vision with his own.



That's a mighty big assumption. Was their heat vision shown to be able to do this? Especially when they'd be pointing in the same general direction rather than the typical fictional opposing beam lay-out.



> Just some things I thought could have been done.



You sound entirely too desperate to come up with a solution that meets your vision of how the film should have gone. The movie was pretty obviously not meant to play out like your typical non-lethal happy ever after. Supes was in a bind and there were innocent lives at stake. Rather than gambling with their lives and trying something off the wall, he made the hard choice and killed Zod. 



> Or since Zod was entirely focused on using that power, just lift him into the air by his neck.



This is seriously the ONLY good solution you've come up with. Only problem being that Supes was under pressure and this is MoS Supes, not the oh so creative one from the comics.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

> Luc she was hemorrhaging internally. He had to cauterize an internal wound. He actually recognized that she was and knew what to do to stop it. But it's a grand leap to assume he COULD try to do something like that. Or ya know? Just hit Zod with heat vision in the head, making him stop his own heat vision.



surgeons will be pleased to learn that closing up an internal bleed means you can also disconnect lobes in the brain

it'll save on med school

p.s. if he tried to burn into his brain with no anatomical knowledge of what to do, he would kill him just the same

don't quit your day job to become a superhero strategist



> Whatever, you can be an insulting prick all you want about my points. I haven't been an asshole in this debate and you are starting to because you are getting frustrated. Way to be mature. You are displaying a reason why the OBD has become a shithole as of late because of arrogant posters with shit attitudes about other peoples opinions.



stop being a fairy because people aren't being nice to you on the internet



> I didn't want to get into this discussion. Yet, you wanted to in this forum so you could kill some time and *feel better about yourself *while trying to invalidate someone else's problems that they had with source of entertainment.


>still trying the amateur psychoanalysis


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> He'd need to be a good deal faster to take one of his arms off of Zod and move it in front of Zod's face before Zod moved his now less-restricted head slightly to the right.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I get that Sait.  I just didn't enjoy the way he was written.


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> surgeons will be pleased to learn that closing up an internal bleed means you can also disconnect lobes in the brain
> 
> it'll save on med school
> 
> ...



There is a huge difference between someone not being nice and disrespecting another poster.  Which you obviously need to learn about.  However, since you seem to enjoy being a dick I will leave you to that.


----------



## Saitomaru (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> Luc she was hemorrhaging internally.  He had to cauterize an internal wound.  He actually recognized that she was and knew what to do to stop it.  But it's a grand leap to assume he COULD try to do something like that.  Or ya know?  Just hit Zod with heat vision in the head, making him stop his own heat vision.



He has xray vision, its not hard for him to xray her and see that she's bleeding internally. And was there anything shown in the movie to suggest that he could have burned through Zod's head with his HV? You're making too many assumptions based only on what you've seen in other variations of Superman.


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> He has xray vision, its not hard for him to xray her and see that she's bleeding internally. And was there anything shown in the movie to suggest that he could have burned through Zod's head with his HV? You're making too many assumptions based only on what you've seen in other variations of Superman.



I'm saying he could have tried anything other than killing Zod.  That was my only point.  That there were things he could have potentially tried.  The writers obviously didn't want it to not end in death.  And I didn't agree with it.  So, sue me.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> There is a huge difference between someone not being nice and disrespecting another poster.  Which you obviously need to learn about.  However, since you seem to enjoy being a dick I will leave you to that.



calling your (retarded) point retarded isn't the grievous, psychologically damaging assault you seem to think it is

get over yourself


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> calling your (retarded) point retarded isn't the grievous, psychologically damaging assault you seem to think it is
> 
> get over yourself



Insulting someone by calling their point retarded because you don't agree with it and I need to get over myself?  Cool story bro.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

>because you don't agree with it

i've pointed out three different ways in which it is objectively retarded

- superman is not a neurosurgeon
- attempting that could easily have killed zod
- lobotomising is extremely inhumane and scarely better than killing

you're in denial


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> >because you don't agree with it
> 
> i've pointed out three different ways in which it is objectively retarded
> 
> ...



- You asked for proof of Superman using HV controlled and precise.  I gave it to you.

- Or it could have worked.  Or knocked Zod out.  Or caused him to stop using his HV.  The point is he could have tried.

- Thanks for admitting that it is better.  

I'm not in denial.  I already mentioned that they intentionally wrote the movie this way and it is that very principle that I don't agree with.


----------



## Vice (Jun 18, 2013)

This thread is stupid and everyone entertaining it should feel bad.

And Lucaniel constantly white knighting a movie he didn't even like is also stupid.


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

You liked the ending.  I didn't.  Can we leave it at that now Luc or must we continue back and forth with one of us insulting the other while the other is just expressing how he feels?


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

...i never asked for any such proof?

and 'controlled and precise' means shit when he doesn't know how to do brain surgery



> - Or it could have worked. Or knocked Zod out. Or caused him to stop using his HV. The point is he could have tried.



or it could've overloaded his brain so he let all of his heat vision loose and killed the family for sure

>blah blah blah hypotheticals in a vacuum!
>see, i have a point!



> Thanks for admitting that it is better.



>he's not superman if he kills, but he can be my superman if he does something almost as despicable as killing!

lol



Vice said:


> And Lucaniel constantly white knighting a movie he didn't even like is also stupid.



i'm legitimately curious as to where you get the impression i didn't like it

i really, really liked it


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 18, 2013)

I challenge any moronic calc that has itachi at mach 40


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> Insulting someone by calling their point retarded because you don't agree with it and I need to get over myself?  Cool story bro.



Flaming people's arguments is explicitly acceptable actually


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

Vice said:


> This thread is stupid and everyone entertaining it should feel bad.



also, it's...a totally standard battledome thread

inb4 >well all of you are stupid hohoho


----------



## Bullbob (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> Sorry, but after what I saw displayed by Superman in the movies he is more than fast enough to place his hands over Zod's eyes before Zod could incinerate them.  Additionally, he is obviously strong enough to force Zod's head away from the people because he breaks Zod's fucking neck.
> 
> And once again, I bring up the point about Jor-El saying Kal could overcome his limitations.  So, that only applies to every other scene in the movie except for this one time.  Sorry.  I disagree with the writers call to make Superman kill someone and literally suffer no ramifications.  Maybe they will address it in the sequel.  But for now.  I didn't enjoy it.



What if his "supassing his limitations" was symbolism to say he needed to get over his refusal to kill someone even if it was the right thing?? So in a sense he surpassed his limitation of not being willing to kill lolll.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

Bullbob said:


> What if his "supassing his limitations" was symbolism to say he needed to get over his refusal to kill someone even if it was the right thing?? So in a sense he surpassed his limitation of not being willing to kill lolll.



that's what i said, too


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 18, 2013)

Banhammer said:


> I challenge any moronic calc that has itachi at mach 40



Also, I refuse to rehash the Faraday issue


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 18, 2013)

though I will take back the "moronic" bit.
Some people actually put hard work in those


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> unless i'm missing something, a lobotomy requires at least some precision and focus



- There ya go.

- Yep it is a possibility.  And it could have killed him. Or it could have done what I said.  Yeah, it is hypothetically better than outright breaking someones neck without trying to not destroy another life.  Let's just bomb everyone in the world everywhere because diplomatic relationships might not work.

- No, he's not Superman because he didn't try hard enough to not kill.


----------



## Vice (Jun 18, 2013)

Superman vs. Itachi is a standard battledome topic? Seriously?


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Banhammer said:


> Flaming people's arguments is explicitly acceptable actually



I'm not saying it isn't acceptable.  It's just an asshole move.


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

WAIT!  Luc you didn't even like the fucking movie?


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> - There ya go.
> 
> - Yep it is a possibility.  And it could have killed him. Or it could have done what I said.  Yeah, it is hypothetically better than outright breaking someones neck without trying to not destroy another life.  Let's just bomb everyone in the world everywhere because diplomatic relationships might not work.
> 
> - No, he's not Superman because he didn't try hard enough to not kill.



meh

he doesn't know how to do brain surgery

also your point has essentially been whittled down to the _extremely small_ difference between someone who'll burn holes in someone's brain to make them stop killing people, or someone who'll just kill them

and if you're resting on what is virtually a technicality as a case for what makes someone superman or _not_ superman, i think i can walk away from this satisfied

because that is definitely retarded


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> WAIT!  Luc you didn't even like the fucking movie?





Lucaniel said:


> i really, really liked it





Vice said:


> Superman vs. Itachi is a standard battledome topic? Seriously?



for crying out loud

MoS superman is not a millionth as powerful as actual superman

this thread is actually not that uneven 

stop being so obtuse


----------



## Saitomaru (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> I'm saying he could have tried anything other than killing Zod.  That was my only point.  That there were things he could have potentially tried.  The writers obviously didn't want it to not end in death.  And I didn't agree with it.  So, sue me.



I'm on the opposite side here. I prefer him not wasting his time doing stupid/useless shit while innocent lives are at stake. Especially something that he'd have no reason to believe would work. Him attempting something only for it to fail would have come across (to me) as him being willing to risk other's lives rather than do what was necessary. If you've ever been in a fight you should now that its only afterwards that you can see all the shit you COULD have done. When you're in the heat of the moment, the simplest solution is usually the most obvious. And once you spot that solution all other solutions begin to lose their appeal. 'Why try this plan that might fail when I can do this and be guaranteed success?'. MoS Superman showed that he was willing to make that tough choice, and I respect him for it. I think the movie has caught WAY too much flak simply because it didn't hold true to some people's perception of what Supes is.


----------



## Vice (Jun 18, 2013)

MoS Superman is hilariously faster.

MoS Superman is hilariously stronger.

How is this not uneven again?


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> meh
> 
> he doesn't know how to do brain surgery
> 
> ...



It might be retarded to you.  However, other people might not agree.  And your point basically whittles down to, it's hopeless anyways so go all out.  Which is the complete opposite of the message of the movie.  "What does that 'S' stand for?"

"It's not an 'S'.  On my world, it is the symbol for hope."

"Kal-El, this symbol is of the house of El and it means hope."

That is retarded.

You admitted that it was better, and it is.  Given what Clark knows about himself (he heals quickly).  It is worth the risk.  Additionally, he could have just used it to attempt to knock Zod out or disrupt the heat vision period without the lobotomy.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

his susanoo stopped kirin, i.e. it can stop what superman can dish out, though if MoS supes punches it enough, it should break apart

if there's a mach 40 calc for itachi, over a 10m starting distance, he can arguably get it up

and supes has no defense against any genjutsu


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> I'm on the opposite side here. I prefer him not wasting his time doing stupid/useless shit while innocent lives are at stake. Especially something that he'd have no reason to believe would work. Him attempting something only for it to fail would have come across (to me) as him being willing to risk other's lives rather than do what was necessary. If you've ever been in a fight you should now that its only afterwards that you can see all the shit you COULD have done. When you're in the heat of the moment, the simplest solution is usually the most obvious. And once you spot that solution all other solutions begin to lose their appeal. 'Why try this plan that might fail when I can do this and be guaranteed success?'. MoS Superman showed that he was willing to make that tough choice, and I respect him for it. I think the movie has caught WAY too much flak simply because it didn't hold true to some people's perception of what Supes is.



I get what you are saying.  Which is why a fair amount of people enjoyed the movie.  Superman is about making those hard choices though and more times than not, he chooses the road that might not realistically work.  However, part of being Superman is making it work.  So, I didn't like the movie for that reason.


----------



## Saitomaru (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> - There ya go.
> 
> - Yep it is a possibility.  And it could have killed him. Or it could have done what I said.  Yeah, it is hypothetically better than outright breaking someones neck without trying to not destroy another life.  Let's just bomb everyone in the world everywhere because diplomatic relationships might not work.
> 
> - No, he's not Superman because he didn't try hard enough to not kill.



So, when was their heat vision shown to be able to burn through their heads? Did it ever show that kind of power? If it did why were you suggesting that he stick his hand in the way?


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> spoilers



FLUTTER I AM SO SORRY!!!


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> It might be retarded to you.  However, other people might not agree.  And your point basically whittles down to, it's hopeless anyways so go all out.  Which is the complete opposite of the message of the movie.  "What does that 'S' stand for?"
> 
> "It's not an 'S'.  On my world, it is the symbol for hope."
> 
> ...



>"it's hopeless anyways so go all out"
>implying that is even a vague approximation of my point
>implying my point is not that when four people's lives are on the line and you are almost completely out of options, it is not reprehensible to kill someone endangering them

pfft


>some bizarre straw-clutching connection between the symbol and the specific situation of zod broiling innocent people

nope


>healing quickly from minor wounds
>therefore a cauterised, severed lobe can heal

nope


----------



## Vice (Jun 18, 2013)

Are we really trying to claim that Itachi reacted to lightning when Sasuke gave him a twenty-minute monologue before he even launched the attack? 

And Itachi's not mach 40. Where is this bullshit coming from?


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> So, when was their heat vision shown to be able to burn through their heads? Did it ever show that kind of power? If it did why were you suggesting that he stick his hand in the way?



I'm saying he could have tried it.  It effortlessly cut through all manner of metal (both domestic and alien).  Plus, Kryptonians were shown not to be invincible.  Clark was cut by alien tech earlier in the movie.  Faora was knocked out by a missile.


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> >"it's hopeless anyways so go all out"
> >implying that is even a vague approximation of my point
> >implying my point is not that when four people's lives are on the line and you are almost completely out of options, it is not reprehensible to kill someone endangering them
> 
> ...



Sigh.  My point was that he wasn't out of options.  HV to the head in an attempt to disrupt the HV or knock Zod out.  A missile knocked Faora out cold earlier in the movie.  You are assuming he was because it suits your argument.  However, I have more than enough justification to believe that a dose of HV (since it cut through domestic and alien metal effortlessly yet Clark could control it enough to not destroy Lois) could work in subduing Zod.

Just following the path that the movie takes buddy with my reasoning on hope and that Clark is supposed to be more than human and kryptonian.  Yet, he gives up hope for Zod and shuffles him loose from this mortal coil.

Once again, he doesn't have to try to lobotomize unless the knock out isn't working.


----------



## Bullbob (Jun 18, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> He'd need to be a good deal faster to take one of his arms off of Zod and move it in front of Zod's face before Zod moved his now less-restricted head slightly to the right.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree with everything you said except the neck snapping part. There is 0 evidence that snapping someone,s neck is easy. Actually all evidence proves the contrary especially if the other person is either tensing, or stronger/as strong as you.  Most neck snapping techniques taught in martial arts have no basis because let,s be frank, who the hell has actually us4ed them for real to test it.. 


Neck snapping techniques were actually taight in the US military since WW2 but were dropped in the 80 s do you know why?? Because it was decided by most army doctors that it had no basis in anatomy and since they couldn,t really try it on people to test it out....


Finally, even if you could snap someone's neck it in no way means death or instant victory. Some people are paralysed, some people just get their vertebrae broken but don,t suffer other ill efect exept needing a neck cast for the vertabrae to heal correctly. Instant death is rarer specially when the force used isn't catastrophic (like lets say dropping from a high height directly on your neck).


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

However, as Sait said earlier, this version of Superman is no where near as creative as comic Supes.  So, whatever.  It is all hypothetical, but I just feel that the Batman movies were way better (DKR not included) in staying truer to what the character represented.  And I feel there is more than enough justification to have written Supes as not murdering Zod as there was to do so.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

in the scant seconds before zod managed to turn his head enough to kill the family, you think it's reasonable to expect clark, on pretty much his first week on the job, to think of that?  and you consider it some sort of "death of hope" or some moral blemish on him that he didn't?



> A missile knocked Faora out cold earlier in the movie.



i...am not recalling this

and a missile has concussive force, not just heat


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 18, 2013)

Vice, kindly crawl back to the Naruto BD


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Bullbob said:


> I agree with everything you said except the neck snapping part. There is 0 evidence that snapping someone,s neck is easy. Actually all evidence proves the contrary especially if the other person is either tensing, or stronger/as strong as you.  Most neck snapping techniques taught in martial arts have no basis because let,s be frank, who the hell has actually us4ed them for real to test it..
> 
> 
> Neck snapping techniques were actually taight in the US military since WW2 but were dropped in the 80 s do you know why?? Because it was decided by most army doctors that it had no basis in anatomy and since they couldn,t really try it on people to test it out....
> ...



Did you read Forest Griffin's book?  It shows the proper technique for snapping a neck.  It's more of a front choke/guillotine combination hold than a rear naked.  Pretty interesting stuff.  However, it definitely isn't easy.  Superman overcoming Zod's resistance to snap the neck in the direction opposite of Zod's force application is something insanely hard.  Like I was saying, it shows that motivation could have allowed Supes the victory without killing him opponent.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

by the way

if the fight had ended with supes burning smoking, bloody holes into zod's scalp, him convulsing, and falling face-down on the ground...

that would actually be _worse_ than what happened


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> in the scant seconds before zod managed to turn his head enough to kill the family, you think it's reasonable to expect clark, on pretty much his first week on the job, to think of that?  and you consider it some sort of "death of hope" or some moral blemish on him that he didn't?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep, Luc.  What ends the fight for her against the humans isn't Superman.  She gets knocked out when trying to stop it with her hand head on.


----------



## Vice (Jun 18, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> Vice, kindly crawl back to the Naruto BD



I tend to avoid that place because everyone is an Itachi-wanking idiot there too.


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> by the way
> 
> if the fight had ended with supes burning smoking, bloody holes into zod's scalp, him convulsing, and falling face-down on the ground...
> 
> that would actually be _worse_ than what happened



Oh no doubt.  I totally agree visually.  However, if he just used it to disrupt the heat vision or knock Zod out because of the increased heat directly applied to the brain.  It would have been cool.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> Yep, Luc.  What ends the fight for her against the humans isn't Superman.  She gets knocked out when trying to stop it with her hand head on.



i see to remember her getting caught in an explosion, soldiers advancing on her, and her coming out of the smoke and blitzing them to hell 

i'll look it up

wait, no-one's written a detailed plot summary yet

can anyone confirm?


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Yeah, it shocked the hell out of me when it knocked her out.



Search for missile.


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## Vice (Jun 18, 2013)

Yeah, it happened. She was carried off and the Kryptons retreated.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

i see. on the other hand, since faora and the other guy, together, weren't at that point able to take supes alone, and hadn't manifested heat vision and proper flight, they clearly weren't at full power and full durability, unlike zod


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## Bullbob (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> Did you read Forest Griffin's book?  It shows the proper technique for snapping a neck.  It's more of a front choke/guillotine combination hold than a rear naked.  Pretty interesting stuff.  However, it definitely isn't easy.  Superman overcoming Zod's resistance to snap the neck in the direction opposite of Zod's force application is something insanely hard.  Like I was saying, it shows that motivation could have allowed Supes the victory without killing him opponent.



It has no bearing even if Forrest says it. Prove Forrest has snapped somebody's neck with such a technique?? And to claim someone knows a technique better than the others would mean it has been tried and has been proven more sucessful than alll other neck breaking "techniques" taught by alll kinds of martial arts  (which we have no proof of again).

I'm not saying it's completely impossible but it would be hard as hell and if pulled off would be half luck. At that point instead of neck breaking and wasting that energy it would be 100 times better to go for a  regular choke, specially if you have the person's back.


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## Saitomaru (Jun 18, 2013)

Bullbob said:


> I agree with everything you said except the neck snapping part. There is 0 evidence that snapping someone,s neck is easy. Actually all evidence proves the contrary especially if the other person is either tensing, or stronger/as strong as you.  Most neck snapping techniques taught in martial arts have no basis because let,s be frank, who the hell has actually us4ed them for real to test it..
> 
> 
> Neck snapping techniques were actually taight in the US military since WW2 but were dropped in the 80 s do you know why?? Because it was decided by most army doctors that it had no basis in anatomy and since they couldn,t really try it on people to test it out....
> ...



You seem to be taking 'neck snapping' to mean killing via breaking their neck. I never said anything about killing via breaking their neck. But, breaking someone's neck IS easy. Not having the chance to actually test it doesn't change that fact. And lol @ 80s army doctors having anything to do with modern day martial arts. And you also seemed to have misunderstood what I mean when I said "Especially not if they're straining and trying to turn their head in a direction. That makes it easier since you can use their force against them.", I didn't say going in the opposite direction their force is applied. If you go and watch that scene Supes twists Zod's head in the direction Zod was trying to turn. Don't ask me how he did that and still managed to prevent Zod from killing those people. But he did. The feat in question starts at about 2:07:24. I guess you could argue that they just didn't portray the scene properly.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

> . If you go and watch that scene Supes twists Zod's head in the direction Zod was trying to turn. Don't ask me how he did that and still managed to prevent Zod from killing those people. But he did.



i think that's the thing

he moved _with_ zod and pulled his head upwards so the beam went over the family's heads, and then pulled it far enough around for it to snap

so the "he was strong enough to bend it the opposite way, so he should've done something else" isn't true


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> i see. on the other hand, since faora and the other guy, together, weren't at that point able to take supes alone, and hadn't manifested heat vision and proper flight, they clearly weren't at full power and full durability, unlike zod



Luc she kicked Superman's ass in that fight.  She displayed better control of her speed than him and far better strength feats by chucking/knocking him really far away.  To me, it looked like Superman didnt have control of his powers, not the other way around.  However, I do get what you are saying.  I agree that they weren't at full durability/power.  However, HV feats far outstripe what a missile was doing.  HV was able to cut through anything it hit.  Zod actually injures Clark with it if I am not mistaken.


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## Saitomaru (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> i see to remember her getting caught in an explosion, soldiers advancing on her, and her coming out of the smoke and blitzing them to hell
> 
> i'll look it up
> 
> ...



Yeah, it happened. 



Bullbob said:


> It has no bearing even if Forrest says it. Prove Forrest has snapped somebody's neck with such a technique?? And to claim someone knows a technique better than the others would mean it has been tried and has been proven more sucessful than alll other neck breaking "techniques" taught by alll kinds of martial arts  (which we have no proof of again).
> 
> I'm not saying it's completely impossible but it would be hard as hell and if pulled off would be half luck. At that point instead of neck breaking and wasting that energy *it would be 100 times better to go for a  regular choke, specially if you have the person's back.*



I don't disagree with you here, especially no the bolded. On problem being the idea of choking someone who doesn't need to breathe/was fine lying under water for a while and fighting in space. I guess you could cut of their blood flow, but that'd require that we assume that their body works that way (not saying this is an outlandish assumption, just mentioning it).


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## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> Luc she kicked Superman's ass in that fight.  She displayed better control of her speed than him and far better strength feats by chucking/knocking him really far away.  To me, it looked like Superman didnt have control of his powers, not the other way around.  However, I do get what you are saying.  I agree that they weren't at full durability/power.  However, HV feats far outstripe what a missile was doing.  HV was able to cut through anything it hit.  Zod actually injures Clark with it if I am not mistaken.



dude, she couldn't even fly

and i really wouldn't say she kicked his ass

she had another guy backing her up who was a foot taller than clark

and she was clearly way better with CQC and an experienced fighter, but i definitely think clark was the stronger one


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## Bullbob (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> Yeah, it shocked the hell out of me when it knocked her out.
> 
> 
> 
> Search for missile.[/QWasn't it also theorised that the missile just gave her a sensory overoad and not actual full out damage. Because they are stille getting used to their heightened senses (super hearig, and all types of vision) it would be reasonnable for someone unaccustomed to it (unlike Clark who has dealt with th?se senses his whole life) to be overloaded vy the bright light and big sound of a missile exploding next to her with those heightened senses.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> dude, she couldn't even fly
> 
> and i really wouldn't say she kicked his ass
> 
> ...



I'm just saying she ragdolled his ass good.  She actually hit him with a casual punch that knocked him all the way across the town with enough forward momentum to hit the vault door perpendicular to the ground without losing any height.


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## Saitomaru (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> i think that's the thing
> 
> he moved _with_ zod and pulled his head upwards so the beam went over the family's heads, and then pulled it far enough around for it to snap
> 
> so the "he was strong enough to bend it the opposite way, so he should've done something else" isn't true



I guess that makes sense.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

wait, that was it 

when the missile cracked open her headgear, she started hearing shit from all over the place and using x-ray vision and became totally disoriented



Punchsplosion said:


> I'm just saying she ragdolled his ass good.  She actually hit him with a casual punch that knocked him all the way across the town with enough forward momentum to hit the vault door perpendicular to the ground without losing any height.



was that even her or was it the big guy?

also, not a big town

plus, clark knocked the big guy across town into a railroad, and if he didn't do the same to her at some point, it was only because of her greater skill


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> wait, that was it
> 
> when the missile cracked open her headgear, she started hearing shit from all over the place and using x-ray vision and became totally disoriented
> 
> ...



She did it to him while in IHOP when he rushed her.

The distance for the railroad to from their position in town wasn't that far as they were near it.  The only thing that stopped Clark from traveling to another town was that vault door.  Zach did an interview saying that he specifically put that scene into the movie to display the strength of his opponents, or something like that.  He was only stopping that fast because of the vault door.  There is an interview break down of the scene on Screenrant.


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## Bullbob (Jun 18, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> You seem to be taking 'neck snapping' to mean killing via breaking their neck. I never said anything about killing via breaking their neck. But, breaking someone's neck IS easy. Not having the chance to actually test it doesn't change that fact. And lol @ 80s army doctors having anything to do with modern day martial arts. And you also seemed to have misunderstood what I mean when I said "Especially not if they're straining and trying to turn their head in a direction. That makes it easier since you can use their force against them.", I didn't say going in the opposite direction their force is applied. If you go and watch that scene Supes twists Zod's head in the direction Zod was trying to turn. Don't ask me how he did that and still managed to prevent Zod from killing those people. But he did. The feat in question starts at about 2:07:24. I guess you could argue that they just didn't portray the scene properly.



Prove to me it's easy even using the person's movement against them. Show me clips of people or documents that  demonstrate  a martial artist (asassin or soldier also accepted)  that has "easily snapped" peoples' neck on repeated occasions and not by freak accident.

I would bet you a 100 $ that it would be 10 times easier to just pick up the other person and pile drive them on their neck than to sucessfully use those "easy neck breaking techniques".


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## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> She did it to him while in IHOP when he rushed her.
> 
> The distance for the railroad to from their position in town wasn't that far as they were near it.  The only thing that stopped Clark from traveling to another town was that vault door.  Zach did an interview saying that he specifically put that scene into the movie to display the strength of his opponents, or something like that.  He was only stopping that fast because of the vault door.  There is an interview break down of the scene on Screenrant.



well, the synopsis for that clearly states the difference was combat skill, though


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Skip to the times I specified, it'll save you the time of searching.



Give me the times again please.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 18, 2013)

I won't need to watch the movie after reading this thread 


abandoning now


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> well, the synopsis for that clearly states the difference was combat skill, though



Yeah but her strength isn't anything to actively shrug at.  Like I said, she blasted him across town with no sign of stopping.


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## Saitomaru (Jun 18, 2013)

Bullbob said:


> Prove to me it's easy even using the person's movement against them. Show me clips of people or documents that  demonstrate  a martial artist (asassin or soldier also accepted)  that has "easily snapped" peoples' neck on repeated occasions and not by freak accident.
> 
> I would bet you a 100 $ that it would be 10 times easier to just pick up the other person and pile drive them on their neck than to sucessfully use those "easy neck breaking techniques".



Are you fucking retarded? Did you even bother reading what I typed? I clearly specified going WITH their motion, not going against it. And I never EVER fucking said neck snapping was the best solution to knocking out/killing your opponent. Learn to read before you bother replying. If I wanted to kill an opponent a throw would be a LOT easier than trying to fight for positioning and then snapping their neck. It'd also be more likely to work. But even then, there are easier ways to kill someone. Methods that are tried and true.

TL;DR- You apparently lack the reading comprehension to properly understand my replies, kindly fuck off until you have attained the required 'skills'.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> Yeah but her strength isn't anything to actively shrug at.  Like I said, she blasted him across town with no sign of stopping.



alright

it's immaterial anyways tbh

she didn't get knocked out by the missile, she was overwhelmed by her own untrained senses bc the missile broke her headgear


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Sorry Luc but he snaps it the opposite way.  Just watched it.

In fact, it's super implausible because he does twist it to the right first slightly.  Thereby, ensuring that they are incinerated.  Yet, for some reasons Zod's heat vision shuts off at that instant despite the neck snapping not occurring until the extension from the opposite side.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

link me to this?


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## Bullbob (Jun 18, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Are you fucking retarded? Did you even bother reading what I typed? I clearly specified going WITH their motion, not going against it. And I never EVER fucking said neck snapping was the best solution to knocking out/killing your opponent. Learn to read before you bother replying. If I wanted to kill an opponent a throw would be a LOT easier than trying to fight for positioning and then snapping their neck. It'd also be more likely to work. But even then, there are easier ways to kill someone. Methods that are tried and true.
> 
> TL;DR- You apparently lack the reading comprehension to properly understand my replies, kindly fuck off until you have attained the required 'skills'.



Ironic how you attack my reading skills and yet have clearly not noticed i have said in my last post to prove it was easy snapping their neck* EVEN using their own movement*. Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black.

I see a whole lot of underserved insults in your post yet no counter argumnent or proof. Concession accepted.


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## Saitomaru (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> Give me the times again please.



Okay

Into orbit feat: 2:06:03

Neck snap: 2:07:24

Supes vs Zod's peeps in the small town: 1:31:12

Supes vs Zod minor 'fight': 1:29:20

Girl kryptonian (who's name escapes me) gets hit by a missile: 1:37:21

Supes vs Zod big fight: 2:00:56 (<-- with talking) 2:01:55 (<--skip most of the talking).


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## Saitomaru (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> Sorry Luc but he snaps it the opposite way.  Just watched it.
> 
> In fact, it's super implausible because he does twist it to the right first slightly.  Thereby, ensuring that they are incinerated.  Yet, for some reasons Zod's heat vision shuts off at that instant despite the neck snapping not occurring until the extension from the opposite side.



He very obviously twists it to the right and then Zod's head snaps/bounces/however you want to describe the motion-- back to the left. I agree on it making no sense that the people didn't die.



> Ironic how you attack my reading skills and yet have clearly not noticed i have said in my last post to prove it was easy snapping their neck EVEN using their own movement. Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black.
> 
> I see a whole lot of underserved insults in your post yet no counter argumnent or proof. Concession accepted.



No, I can read perfectly fine. I found it irritating for you to misrepresent what it was that I said. And even going so far as to bet against that false representation. I will agree that I have little proof to back up my side, however, I did find this . Not sure if that's even a proper source. And as I said, I never said shit about killing via neck breaking.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

watched it on here

he moves him in the direction he's turning and then pulls his neck the other way

100%


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## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

lel so yeah i dunno why they didn't die (he pulled zod's head up slightly?) but he wasn't actively wrenching his head AGAINST the direction zod was moving, he moved with zod, and then moved against him


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## Doge (Jun 18, 2013)

Superman does not have chakra, therefore, genjutsu does not work.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> lel so yeah i dunno why they didn't die (he pulled zod's head up slightly?) but he wasn't actively wrenching his head AGAINST the direction zod was moving, he moved with zod, and then moved against him



Still completely implausible and shitty attention to detail.  Also, implies that he could have just done that without killing his opponent by simple turning Zod around and smashing his head into the ground over and over until he was unconscious or punch him really hard or lift him up by his neck.  Blah blah blah.  Yea watching that further solidified my stance on that scene.

Or move his hands fast enough to grab the head to stop it from moving (which he did) or intercept the HV.


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## Saitomaru (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> or intercept the HV.



With what? One second you're implying it can burn through their skulls the next you're acting like they can stop it with their hands. Make up your mind.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

i think the retarded execution of that neck-snap supports your stance tbh


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> With what? One second you're implying it can burn through their skulls the next you're acting like they can stop it with their hands. Make up your mind.



I said that it could potentially.  Superman still could have attempted it.  It's a method of stopping said attack.  He also could have done any of the other things I have listed.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> i think the retarded execution of that neck-snap supports your stance tbh



Coolbeans.  It was pretty retarded.


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## Saitomaru (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> I said that it could potentially.  Superman still could have attempted it.  It's a method of stopping said attack.  He also could have done any of the other things I have listed.



Wait, tried which thing? Tried burning through Zod's skull? Or potentially lost most of a hand by sticking it in the way? If its the second option... I'll have to disagree. Had he attempted to stick is hand in the way AND lost most of that hand because of it people wouldn't just be insulting the movie because Supes killed, they'd be calling Supes stupid as fuck for doing that. I prefer this nice, clean ending rather than an ending featuring him trying and failing a bunch of things. This way we know he is not willing to gamble with innocent lives.



Punchsplosion said:


> Coolbeans.  It was pretty retarded.



Yep.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Wait, tried which thing? Tried burning through Zod's skull? Or potentially lost most of a hand by sticking it in the way? If its the second option... I'll have to disagree. Had he attempted to stick is hand in the way AND lost most of that hand because of it people wouldn't just be insulting the movie because Supes killed, they'd be calling Supes stupid as fuck for doing that. I prefer this nice, clean ending rather than an ending featuring him trying and failing a bunch of things. This way we know he is not willing to gamble with innocent lives.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep.



Like I said before.  You and Luc are entitled to like the reasons that you said.  And I am equally entitled to dislike it for going against what I believe are core Superman principles.  I think they could have done it and still made it realistic.  Or at least justified it a little more for me all-the-while actively showing me that he feels remorse for what he did other than a scream.  It would have set with me better had the showed the angst and flashed into Superman's mind their battle destroying countless cities if he didn't end it that way.  I don't like implied shit because I love this character.  Show me why he had to do it.  And then show me that he gives a fuck.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

> Or at least justified it a little more for me all-the-while actively showing me that he feels remorse for what he did other than a scream. It would have set with me better had the showed the angst and flashed into Superman's mind their battle destroying countless cities if he didn't end it that way. I don't like implied shit because I love this character. Show me why he had to do it.



i can live with the problem being the execution


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> i can live with the problem being the execution



Exactly, I really didn't enjoy the execution of the material.


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## Ulti (Jun 18, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> I won't need to watch the movie after reading this thread
> 
> 
> abandoning now



If I were you I would avoid the threads until I had seen the movie.


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## feebas_factor (Jun 18, 2013)

So this match apparently just comes down to speed calcs... again.

*If Supes is high-triple-digit-Mach:* he blitzes Itachi before he can even erect Susanoo and snaps his neck.

*If Supes is low-triple-digit-Mach:* he fails to blitz, but can try for the space-throw (though it should be substantially harder to throw Susanoo into orbit than it was to throw Zod) or space-carry (though this risks getting Genjutsu'd in the 4-5 seconds it'll take to get there).

*And if Supes is double-digit-Mach:* he pounds uselessly on Susanoo's shield until he gets caught by Amaterasu/Genjutsu, stabbed with Totsuka sword and sealed.



kresh said:


> Superman does not have chakra, therefore, genjutsu does not work.



OP equalized so that genjutsu works. Pretty standard.


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## B Rabbit (Jun 18, 2013)

Do the rules. Genjutsu can still harm Superman. Even if he doesn't have chakra.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion stahp


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Punchsplosion stahp



Hey, I told Luc I didn't want to do this.  Lol.


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## Tacocat (Jun 18, 2013)

You didn't have to.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> You didn't have to.



Luc goaded me into doing it in the forum.  I wanted to talk via pm or vp.  Yeah, I didn't have to in hindsight.  However, I felt that Luc deserved to know what I meant by "desecration".  It's over now and has been for a couple of hours.  So, whatever.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

he's already stopped m8s

and anyway by the end of it, on the last page, i'd seen his viewpoint in its entirety and recognised it as valid, which is a better result than 99% of obd threads get, so...


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 18, 2013)

Does superman have a phantom zone in the movie y/n?


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> he's already stopped m8s
> 
> and anyway by the end of it, on the last page, i'd seen his viewpoint in its entirety and recognised it as valid, which is a better result than 99% of obd threads get, so...



Thanks good sir.  I value you and Sait as respected posters coming into debate about certain things you didn't agree with.

Yes, Unlosing Ranger.  There is a "Phantom Zone".  Sorta.


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## Bullbob (Jun 18, 2013)

Alright, getting back on the main subject, I wanna adress the point punchsplosion made about it being uncharacteristic for Superman to kill Zod even to save innocents. I know you Supes doesn't necessarily kill but didn't he kill at least a bunch of people (talking about his post crisis self) in comics and in canon stories? I mean there is the obvious example of destroying Darkseid's essence in final crisis, he was also trying to kill Doomsday in their "death of Superman fight" (he actually did kill Doomsday but he didn,t knw the creature could come back to life). If I'm not mistaken in an 80's canon storyline he even kills the same three characters from the Man of steel movie with green kryptonite (Zaora, Zod and Quex Ul) because they had commited genocide and killed millions.

In the New 52 universe, Superman also kills the fake "Russian Zod" albeit inadvertently.
I mean even in the original movies, Superman kills Zod at the end (and at that point Zod had become depowered making it even less necessary than in Man of steel to klill him). 

So all in all, it's not uncharacteristic for Supes to kill Zod since he's done so in multiple occasions when it benefited the greater good and in multiple realities.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 18, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> Thanks good sir.  I value you and Sait as respected posters coming into debate about certain things you didn't agree with.
> 
> Yes, Unlosing Ranger.  There is a "Phantom Zone".  Sorta.



Sorta? The kind of Sorta where supes can't throw him back in?


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Sorta? The kind of Sorta where supes can't throw him back in?



By the end of the movie, he can't.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 18, 2013)

Bullbob said:


> Alright, getting back on the main subject, I wanna adress the point punchsplosion made about it being uncharacteristic for Superman to kill Zod even to save innocents. I know you Supes doesn't necessarily kill but didn't he kill at least a bunch of people (talking about his post crisis self) in comics and in canon stories? I mean there is the obvious example of destroying Darkseid's essence in final crisis, he was also trying to kill Doomsday in their "death of Superman fight" (he actually did kill Doomsday but he didn,t knw the creature could come back to life). If I'm not mistaken in an 80's canon storyline he even kills the same three characters from the Man of steel movie with green kryptonite (Zaora, Zod and Quex Ul) because they had commited genocide and killed millions.
> 
> In the New 52 universe, Superman also kills the fake "Russian Zod" albeit inadvertently.
> I mean even in the original movies, Superman kills Zod at the end (and at that point Zod had become depowered making it even less necessary than in Man of steel to klill him).
> ...



I was just pointing out that I feel it wasn't done correctly.  I.E. It didn't convince me that Superman even really needed to do so at that particular moment.  I'm aware of the times when he has killed.  For instance, he destroyed Hank Henshaw (Cyborg Superman) twice.  Just didn't set right with me.  From the outset of the second half of the movie, I could tell he was going to kill him.  I just hoped by the time it happened, I would feel as though he did everything he could to avoid it.  I did not.

Additionally, just because it happens a handful of times, doesn't mean it is characteristic of the character.  It is characteristic of Clark to find another way.  This happens almost to the point of detriment in the majority of Superman comics.  He spends all his time saving people and trying NOT to kill the villain that he almost loses the fight.  It's uncharacteristic for him to kill.  It happens.  But it is still uncharacteristic.


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 18, 2013)

Can someone explain to me how someone able to catch something under speed that is being accelerated even more by the earth gravity due to reentry slower than a guy who basically watch his bro give him the shittiest monologue before launching an attack.


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## Saitomaru (Jun 19, 2013)

Danger Doom said:


> Can someone explain to me how someone able to catch something under speed that is being accelerated even more by the earth gravity due to reentry slower than a guy who basically watch his bro give him the shittiest monologue before launching an attack.



Cuz light flashes


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