# A vs Tsunade



## joshhookway (Jul 22, 2013)

Location: Sannin field
SOM: IC
Distance: 40 m
Restrictions: none
Knowledge: None


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## tanman (Jul 22, 2013)

No knowledge? Not even reputation?
A will get socked.

With manga knowledge, I would give it to A (with an opportunity for a double K.O.)


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## Ennoia (Jul 22, 2013)

I believe A will blitz in v2 and possibly punch her jaw off, if she happens to dodge somehow she will likely try to counter and miss to which A finds out about her strength. A proceeds to go v2 and she loses as she is not capable of tagging him in any way and he can just keep tagging her until her seal runs out. I cannot see A losing unless he is restricted to v1 and then I think its a stretch still.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 22, 2013)

Doesn't he treat her like Juugo and get smacked?


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## Mithos (Jul 22, 2013)

No knowledge? He probably tries to block one of her punches and dies. 

Or he gets blind-sided after he hits her and she regenerates. 

Tsunade wins.


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## Rocky (Jul 22, 2013)

I see it as Ei activating Ration no Yori while Tsunade activates Byakugo. Then the two duke it out, with Ei using speed to compensate for the strength gap, and Tsunade using strength to compensate for the speed gap. Tsunade let's Ei land what he believes to be a kill-blow, and she plows through and scores a hit. 

Normally Tsunade's blows can be fatal, but much to her surprise, Ei survives with his freakish durability. He realizes he can't beat Tsunade without pulling out all the stops, and amps up to max power.  He then utilizes the super Shunshin to leave her vision, flank her, and chop her in the neck severing it, similar to what he did to Sasuke. Only this time, there is no Susano'o, and her regeneration doesn't cover having her head blasted off.


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## Ashi (Jul 22, 2013)

if Tsunade can counterattack A's moves then she can win high diff


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## tanman (Jul 22, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I see it as Ei activating Ration no Yori while Tsunade activates Byakugo. Then the two duke it out, with Ei using speed to compensate for the strength gap, and Tsunade using strength to compensate for the speed gap. Tsunade let's Ei land what he believes to be a kill-blow, and she plows through and scores a hit.
> 
> Normally Tsunade's blows can be fatal, but much to her surprise, Ei survives with his freakish durability. He realizes he can't beat Tsunade without pulling out all the stops, and amps up to max power.  He then utilizes the super Shunshin to leave her vision, flank her, and chop her in the neck severing it, similar to what he did to Sasuke. Only this time, there is no Susano'o, and her regeneration doesn't cover having her head blasted off.



I would completely agree with this analysis if it weren't for the fact that neither of them have knowledge. Not even reputation knowledge. I don't know why A would put up his Raiton Armor so quickly. And I _definitely_ don't know why Tsunade would put up Byakugo so quickly.


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## Rocky (Jul 22, 2013)

tanman said:


> I would completely agree with this analysis if it weren't for the fact that neither of them have knowledge. Not even reputation knowledge. I don't know why A would put up his Raiton Armor so quickly. And I _definitely_ don't know why Tsunade would put up Byakugo so quickly.




Ei because he always fights with it.

Tsunade because she (apparently) isn't allowed to fight without it.


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## Veracity (Jul 22, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Ei because he always fights with it.
> 
> Tsunade because she (apparently) isn't allowed to fight without it.



Ay has only been in like 3 actual battles. I which he had a reason to activate how lighting armor.

- Against a man who he thought killed his brother. The fact that he had the strentgh to "kill" Bee is enough to activate the gates

- Another against the freaking Yellow Flash.  IIRC he knew of Minato's rep

- The last against the strongest Uchiha. With the most Rep of pretty much anyone.

Ay isn't brining out lighting armor. He gets one hit KO'D.


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## Rocky (Jul 22, 2013)

Him not using it is out of character actually. It would be like the Uchiha not using their Sharingan.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 22, 2013)

Ei immediately used RnY against

1: Gyuki
2: Minato
3: Sasuke
4: Obito
5; Kisame
6: Naruto
7: Madara

Ei has never not used RnY from the start except against White Zetsu. When he had his bodyguards and the rest of the Kage, Mifune, and all of their bodyguards for backup.


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## trance (Jul 22, 2013)

He used Raiton no Yoroi against Naruto even though he only wanted to stop Naruto and Bee.


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## Veracity (Jul 22, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Ei immediately used RnY against
> 
> 1: Gyuki
> 2: Minato
> ...



Those are still all reasons to use it. 

- Gyuki is the 8 tails
-Obito was the leader of the Akasuki, and had just previously warped Sasuke away.
- Kisame was baby shaking a perfect Jin
- and Naruto has so much Rep it's disgusting. Along with a perfect Jin on his side.

Against a 5 foot women(who doesn't look dangerous at all), with no reputation or general knowledge what's so ever. Ay aint using dat Armor.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 22, 2013)

Sooooo....despite the fact that high level ninja generally aren't ignorant of the sense of their opponent, and despite the fact that Ei has never entered a serious battle without it...he is going to not use it here....

Yeah, _sure_.


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## Rocky (Jul 22, 2013)

This is a pointless argument. He's still fast enough without the armor, and she won't be counterpunching though a kill-shot if she isn't using her Regeneration.

The first kick he dodges is going to alert him to her strength anyway.


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## Mithos (Jul 22, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I see it as Ei activating Ration no Yori while Tsunade activates Byakugo. Then the two duke it out, with Ei using speed to compensate for the strength gap, and Tsunade using strength to compensate for the speed gap. Tsunade let's Ei land what he believes to be a kill-blow, and she plows through and scores a hit.
> 
> *Normally Tsunade's blows can be fatal, but much to her surprise, Ei survives with his freakish durability. He realizes he can't beat Tsunade without pulling out all the stops, and amps up to max power*.  He then utilizes the super Shunshin to leave her vision, flank her, and chop her in the neck severing it, similar to what he did to Sasuke. Only this time, there is no Susano'o, and her regeneration doesn't cover having her head blasted off.



A is not surviving one of Tsunade's blows though. She can split the earth apart with a single finger, crack and send Susano'o flying with a single punch and then shatter it with a kick, and her strength was compared to Sakura's new strength - the fact that Sakura's punch "might" be stronger than Tsunade's means that Tsunade's is at least around that level of power. 

If A survives the punch or kick, he will not be in a condition to fight Tsunade. 

One hit and he loses. He will either be dead, incapacitated or in a condition where he will not be able to avoid a second hit, which would surely finish him off.


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## Rocky (Jul 22, 2013)

Yeah no. How many durability feats does this guy need. He survived being "ripped to shreds" without need of medical attention. Tsunade's feats against the ground do little for me, and cracking rib-cage Susano'o does not equate to killing Ei with one punch.

As long as he puts up some kind of guard, he'll be conscious, and able to fight.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 22, 2013)

I am getting kinda tired of hearing Sakura's new found feats being applied retroactively to Tsunade through some ambiguous line from a character not even familiar with Tsunade's actual level of ability.


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## Mithos (Jul 22, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Yeah no. How many durability feats does this guy need. He survived being "ripped to shreds" without need of medical attention. Tsunade's feats against the ground do little for me, and cracking rib-cage Susano'o does not equate to killing Ei with one punch.
> 
> As long as he puts up some kind of guard, he'll be conscious, and able to fight.



Being "ripped to shreds" isn't the same kind of damage though, so that's an irrelevent feat. 

Tsunade's punch obliterated the torso of Madara's mokuton clone - and given her lack of reaction to the damage her punch caused, it would do that to Madara's real body or it would have been a give-away that she hit a clone. Something that obliterates a person's chest is going to break enough of A's bones and likely cause internal damage. If he survives, he's not going to be able to his insane speed cause he will too injured. He will not be overwhelming her with speed after taking that kind of damage - if he even survives in the first place. Tsunade is not slow and she has good reactions; she can handle a severely injured A. 



SubtleObscurantist said:


> I am getting kinda tired of hearing Sakura's new found feats being applied retroactively to Tsunade through some ambiguous line from a character not even familiar with Tsunade's actual level of ability.



Unless Tsunade has gotten weaker since Hashirama last saw her, which is unlikely, I think we can consider it an accurate statement. 

Also, the point of the comment was to make a clear parallel between Sakura and Tsunade to show Sakura has caught up: saying their strength is comparable; the ability to summon Katsuyu; and even the ability to use Katsuyu's "remote healing". The only thing Sakura hasn't shown is Tsunade-level regeneration, which is likely coming. Kishimoto was using Hashirama as his "medium" to help show this comparision between them to empahsize Sakura's growth. I agree though, that he should have picked a better character - Shizune or Hiruzen would have been more appropriate.


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## Rocky (Jul 23, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> Being "ripped to shreds" isn't the same kind of damage though, so that's an irrelevent feat.



Damage is damage. Being resistant to cutting is actually better than being resistant to blunt force, as cutting is concentrated.

The outskirts Battledome even scales an entire category up. To them, if someone can take a Town-level cutting attack, that means they can take a City-level blunt force attack. I believe them; it makes sense. It's the same reason why you can survive a punch just fine, but if you were stabbed, there'd be trouble. 



> Something that obliterates a person's chest is going to break enough of A's bones and likely cause internal damage.



Tsunade's punch can tear the torso off a normal Shinobi. Maubi's technique can rip a normal Shinobi to shreds. To me, the latter sounds much, much worse.




> If he survives, he's not going to be able to his insane speed cause he will too injured. He will not be overwhelming her with speed after taking that kind of damage - if he even survives in the first place. Tsunade is not slow and she has good reactions; she can handle a severely injured A.




If he blocks, he'll be fine. The Ration cloak should protect him from most of the blow. 

Tsunade isn't slow, but she isn't more reflexive than Sasuke, who was physically helpless against Max-Power Ei. She isn't reacting in time to guard. It appeared that even Minato couldn't do that.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 23, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> Unless Tsunade has gotten weaker since Hashirama last saw her, which is unlikely, I think we can consider it an accurate statement.



It's not a statement which _can_ be precisely accurate or inaccurate. It's ambiguous and it doesn't lend one to believe that Hasharima actually had a precise gauge of Tsunade's level of physical power. It's _so_ far beyond what Tsunade has demonstrated, and since the last time Hasharima saw Tsunade was when she was a child, it seems to me that Hasharima was _powerscaling_ his granddaughter's strength. If she was that strong compared to Ei, she should have been able to completely and utterly demolish Madara's Susano'o in one hit. Even at higher stages. Because what Sakura showed is likewise many leaps and bounds beyond Ei. 


> Also, the point of the comment was to make a clear parallel between Sakura and Tsunade to show Sakura has caught up: saying their strength is comparable; the ability to summon Katsuyu; and even the ability to use Katsuyu's "remote healing". The only thing Sakura hasn't shown is Tsunade-level regeneration, which is likely coming. Kishimoto was using Hashirama as his "medium" to help show this comparision between them to empahsize Sakura's growth. I agree though, that he should have picked a better character - Shizune or Hiruzen would have been more appropriate.



I think Kishi was actually showing that Sakura had surpassed her sensei like her comrades had and could stand beside them as an equal shinobi. Now just like Tsunade was not a combat specialist and therefore was not Jiraiya or Orochimaru's equal in an all out battle, Sakura is not equal to Sasuke or Naruto in combat. Indeed, had Kishi intended to say that Sakura was a little above Tsunade in her sheer physical strength, Hiruzen or Shizune would have been the way to go. Because absent clear statements from a character who knows Tsunade's strength, I am not going to retroactively hype up Tsunade's abilities far above what she has shown in an area where she has plenty of feats to draw from.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 23, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Ei immediately used RnY against
> 
> 1: Gyuki
> 2: Minato
> ...



You forgot how he didn't use it against the desk or that window.  That was all base.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 23, 2013)

Raikage Ay used _Mach Punch_!

Tsunade used _Revenge_!

It's a critical hit!

Raikage Ay fainted!

_Byakugo _used _Full Restore_ on Tsunade!

Tsunade gained 3567 ryo experience points!


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 23, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> I am getting kinda tired of hearing Sakura's new found feats being applied retroactively to Tsunade through some ambiguous line from a character not even familiar with Tsunade's actual level of ability.



It's clear that Tsunade megaton-punched her way out of the womb, and then healed her mother by Hashirama's statements.  Why can't you accept this?



FlamingRain said:


> Raikage Ay used _Mach Punch_!
> 
> Tsunade used _Revenge_!
> 
> ...



Tsunade lost 3567 ryo at the Game Corner....


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## Bonly (Jul 23, 2013)

No knowledge? A is likely to go V1 which Tsunade should be able to react decently against. After A thinks he put her down she'll counter attack and either hit him or he'll barely dodge. It really depends if Tsunade would be able to land a killing blow on A before he see's her strength and goes V2.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jul 23, 2013)

Ei_ _floors_ Tsunade.

Tsunade _stands_ back up.

Ei_ _chops_ Tsunade. 

Tsunade loses mobile function.

Ei_ walks away.


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## LostSelf (Jul 23, 2013)

Ei wins if Tsunade cannot kill him or severely injure him with her punch. He was blocking Susano'o blades with his hands in RnY. A cutting attack.

Cutting attacks have shown to damage shinobis with a lot of durability to blunt force. So, for Ei to be able to hold that blade with his hand should give us an indication of how big his durability is. Though i'm not going to assume anything here.

If Tsunade misses a hit, she's screwed. Ei is going V2 and is cutting her head off or her arms if she somehow blocks (I don't think she will) his hit, with ease.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 23, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Cutting attacks have shown to damage shinobis with a lot of durability to blunt force.



Ay can cut himself with _Raigyaku Suihei_ with hardly, if any effort. _Susano'o _tanked this attack with a full swing behind it. Tsunade then punched a fist-sized hole in _Susano'o_ while cracking the rest of that side and it flew.

If she connects she is going to mess him up.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 23, 2013)

Yeah, I don't think a direct shot will kill him because he's absurdly durable, but I do think it will mess him up enough to change the situation.

I also don't think he'll use his max speed, but he will use RnY because that's what Raikage does when he fights, however I'm not sure Tsunade really activates her seal on someone she thinks is a random dude.  But she can survive a blunt force attack anyway, and that's what Raikage overwhelmingly favors.  

If we ever got a match where Raikage had knowledge and Tsunade didn't, I'd say he stomps her 10/10 times by killing her with a death chop before she activates her seal.


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## trance (Jul 23, 2013)

Surprised no one's mentioned Infinity Gauntlet level Katsuyu.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 23, 2013)

We prefer imagining a cool super strength battle.


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## LostSelf (Jul 23, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Ay can cut himself with _Raigyaku Suihei_ with hardly, if any effort. _Susano'o _tanked this attack with a full swing behind it. Tsunade then punched a fist-sized hole in _Susano'o_ while cracking the rest of that side and it flew.
> 
> If she connects she is going to mess him up.



Ei didn't have his shroud activated when he did that, only in the arm he was using to cut the other [1].

What he accomplished with the Susano'o blades was with his shroud. It gives him absurd durability.

It can also explain why Madara had to resort to genjutsu Ei and took the opportunity to strike with the Susano'o blades when Ei's shroud wore off [2].

Anyway i'm not affirming he will tank her hit or something like that. Just pointing some things here.


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## trance (Jul 23, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> We prefer imagining a cool super strength battle.



Ok. 

He can't really beat her regeneration but I reckon he can do hit and run till her regeneration runs out. Even in base, Ei's faster and can possibly outlast her.


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## Rocky (Jul 23, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Ay can cut himself with _Raigyaku Suihei_ with hardly, if any effort. _Susano'o _tanked this attack with a full swing behind it. Tsunade then punched a fist-sized hole in _Susano'o_ while cracking the rest of that side and it flew.
> 
> If she connects she is going to mess him up.




Ei didn't have Raiton no Yori activated.


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## Ersa (Jul 23, 2013)

Where is Madara level Katsuyu?

City level acid should change the odds somewhat.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 23, 2013)

Rasant plz.



LostSelf said:


> Ei didn't have his shroud activated when he did that, only in the arm he was using to cut the other [1].
> 
> What he accomplished with the Susano'o blades was with his shroud. It gives him absurd durability.
> 
> ...



I'm not denying that Ay is incredibly durable, I agree with that 100%. I just think Tsunade's strength would still screw him up.

I thought what Madara was waiting for was an immobile Ay.

Slicing =/= stabbing.  I can stab you with a pencil, but I can't slice you with one I mean, you can try to slice a plate of armor and not get anywhere, but then stab it and go right through.



Rocky said:


> Ei didn't have Raiton no Yori activated.



Yes, I forgot.

Still, I find it more likely that she would cripple him in the event that she connected with him.


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## Rocky (Jul 23, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Still, I find it more likely that she would cripple him in the event that she connected with him.




What exactly has Tsunade done to suggest such a thing anyway. Just the Susano'o cracking feat? Ei's own physical power coupled with his immense durability should allow him to block her punches just fine.

Again, Tsunade's attacking with blunt force against a man that only took a scratch from the Chidori, a concentrated piercing attack. The armor on top of his natural buff makes him just so ridiculously durable. I don't see mere punches being enough.


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## Undead (Jul 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> What exactly has Tsunade done to suggest such a thing anyway. Just the Susano'o cracking feat?


I'm not defending Tsunade / taking her side here, but it's common sense that she'd be able to pull off such a feat, judging by the raw power she can deliver. The magnitude of her *earth shattering strength* will snap people in half. The human body can't take that kind of force. She doesn't need to have a shown feat on somebody to believe it.


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## Rocky (Jul 23, 2013)

Paragon said:


> I'm not defending Tsunade / taking her side here, but it's common sense that she'd be able to pull off such a feat, judging by the raw power she can deliver. The magnitude of her *earth shattering strength* will snap people in half. The human body can't take that kind of force. She doesn't need to have a shown feat on somebody to believe it.




I don't know what you're really talking about here.

As it stands, it sounds like you're trying to portray the Raikage as a normal human.


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## Undead (Jul 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I don't know what you're really talking about here.
> 
> It sounds to me though that you're trying to portray the Raikage as a normal human.


Ok, then let me ask you this question.

You question Tsunade's ability to be able to shatter someone like Ei's body, because you've seen no feats from her that support her in being able to do so. What feat(s) have you seen from Ei where he's endured direct hits from someone with monster strength such as Tsunade?


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## LostSelf (Jul 23, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I'm not denying that Ay is incredibly durable, I agree with that 100%. I just think Tsunade's strength would still screw him up.
> 
> I thought what Madara was waiting for was an immobile Ay.
> 
> Slicing =/= stabbing.  I can stab you with a pencil, but I can't slice you with one I mean, you can try to slice a plate of armor and not get anywhere, but then stab it and go right through.



Yeah, i'm not saying it won't, i chose not to affirm anything here though.

Sure, but the Susano'os were hitting Ei, or at least, forcing him to block slicing attacks. If they managed to do that, they probably tried and could've managed to stab him. But Ei's shroud and him blocking their sword made it impossible. Look how he was surprised that Sasuke touched him with his armor with a piercing attack. Madara probably managed to get a stab hit, but failed.

Of course, this is just assumption basing it on his Chidori's feat and blocking the Susano'o slashes.

I know that stabbing is not the same as cutting as well.


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## Rocky (Jul 23, 2013)

Paragon said:


> Ok, then let me ask you this question.
> 
> You question Tsunade's ability to be able to shatter someone like Ei's body, because you've seen no feats from her that support her in being able to do so. What feat(s) have you seen from Ei where he's endured direct hits from someone with monster strength such as Tsunade?



For starters, "monster strength" is a broad term. Ei himself has monster strength, just not as much as Tsunade.

To answer your question, Ei shrugged off Chidori with virtually no damage. He walked out of Maubi's shredder technique unscathed. He wears a layer of armor and has immense physical strength himself. Since attacks that pierce, cut, or slice do more damage than blunt force, Tsunade's going to have quite the uphill battle in "crippling" The Raikage, even with a direct hit.

Since the Raikage is much faster, I'm sure he could manage to _block_ her blows. Weaker people can still block against a stronger foe's punches. Itachi could block Sage Kabuto, and KCM Naruto. Deva could block Sage Naruto. Madara could block Ei. Kakashi could block the V2 Jinchuriki. Muu could block Ei. Human realm could block Jiraiya......This is not an uncommon occurrence. Just because a large strength gap exists does not mean the weaker Ninja cannot guard and continue to fight, especially when said Ninja is cloaked in lighting armor and naturally incredibly durable.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> What exactly has Tsunade done to suggest such a thing anyway. Just the Susano'o cracking feat? Ei's own physical power coupled with his immense durability should allow him to block her punches just fine.
> 
> Again, Tsunade's attacking with blunt force against a man that only took a scratch from the Chidori, a concentrated piercing attack. The armor on top of his natural buff makes him just so ridiculously durable. I don't see mere punches being enough.



Madara took Ei's full speed punch for no damage, while Tsunade's punch blew Madara apart.  



Trance said:


> Ok.
> 
> He can't really beat her regeneration but I reckon he can do hit and run till her regeneration runs out. Even in base, Ei's faster and can possibly outlast her.



I figure that could happen, where he just runs in and out and around her, even though it's really out of character and not at all how I see the Raikage.  But even then, they both have absurd chakra levels, so it'll take a long time before she runs out of juice.  I expect Tsunade to get his patterns down or predict his attack, and land or exchange a hit on him at some point while she's getting picked apart and knocked around.

The chidori thing was also because the armor and the attack were of the same element, so it got mostly diffused.  

The awesome feat is the chidori-gatana bouncing off his neck.  That feat was awesome.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> What exactly has Tsunade done to suggest such a thing anyway. Just the Susano'o cracking feat? Ei's own physical power coupled with his immense durability should allow him to block her punches just fine.





Paragon said:


> What feat(s) have you seen from Ei where he's endured direct hits from someone with monster strength such as Tsunade?



"Physical power coupled with his immense durability", what? Physical strength doesn't increase resistance to damage, what do you mean "coupled with"?

And yes, the _Susano'o_ cracking feat is why. I don't think Ay could take anything _Susano'o_ itself couldn't. Even her 20 years out of shape feats in Part 1 cause me to feel he wouldn't be able to just block her strike and keep going without jacking up his arm in the process. And heck, that _Tsutenkyaku_ was still apparently _natural_ (being labeled as Taijutsu in the databook instead of Ninjutsu like chakra-enhanced punches, and believably so given her lifting Bunta's blade), imagine what that would be like when she's in shape, and even worse, when magnified by her chakra. Her strength has gotten way more attention than his durability, and I simply don't feel he can take her blow without being injured for it.



> Again, Tsunade's attacking with blunt force against a man that only took a scratch from the Chidori, a concentrated piercing attack. The armor on top of his natural buff makes him just so ridiculously durable. I don't see mere punches being enough.



Raiton diffuses Raiton. _Chidori_'s penetrative power wasn't at it's height in that situation.

I think Sasuke would break his fingers on _Susano'o _if he hit it with _Chidori_, honestly.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> For starters, "monster strength" is a broad term. Ei himself has monster strength, just not as much as Tsunade.
> 
> To answer your question, Ei shrugged off Chidori with virtually no damage. He walked out of Maubi's shredder technique unscathed. He wears a layer of armor and has immense physical strength himself. Since attacks that pierce, cut, or slice do more damage than blunt force, Tsunade's going to have quite the uphill battle in "crippling" The Raikage, even with a direct hit.
> 
> Since the Raikage is much faster, I'm sure he could manage to _block_ her blows. Weaker people can still block against a stronger foe's punches. Itachi could block Sage Kabuto, and KCM Naruto. Deva could block Sage Naruto. Madara could block Ei. Kakashi could block the V2 Jinchuriki. Muu could block Ei. Human realm could block Jiraiya......This is not an uncommon occurrence. Just because a large strength gap exists does not mean the weaker Ninja cannot guard and continue to fight, especially when said Ninja is cloaked in lighting armor and naturally incredibly durable.



Ei doesn't really block, though.  He uses his immense durability and his RnY to tank damage and smash guards, because blocking is what the other people are doing if they're lucky.  The ones he's smashing.  Like he didn't block Sasuke's chidori-gatana to his neck, because he laughs at them, and he didn't block chidori either because he was too busy throwing elbows to care about his piddly jutsu.  Then he suplexed Sasuke.

The only time I recall him blocking anything was when he blocked those Susano blades, and I kind of think that's because he was just standing around trying to figure out what to do because his one dimensional fighting style was incapable of effecting the Madara clones.  In other words, he was reduced to defending.  To say nothing of his distraction of crushing on Tsunade.


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## Veracity (Jul 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> What exactly has Tsunade done to suggest such a thing anyway. Just the Susano'o cracking feat? Ei's own physical power coupled with his immense durability should allow him to block her punches just fine.
> 
> Again, Tsunade's attacking with blunt force against a man that only took a scratch from the Chidori, a concentrated piercing attack. The armor on top of his natural buff makes him just so ridiculously durable. I don't see mere punches being enough.



I learned the hard way, but Sasukes Chidori did a lot more then just "scratch" Ay. It pierced his skin around 2 to 3 inches. Lets not compare Chidori to Tsunades strentgh even if they do deliver different types of damage.  Her finger created a giant fissure. She accomplished that feat almost effortlessly. 

I'm surprised about this coming from you. The same person who thinks destroying Sasukes chest region is more impressive then cracking Sussano. If Tsunade didn't just "destroy"
But absolutely obliterated pretty much all of Madara's body, then why wouldn't she be able to hurt Ay? Unless you assume Sussano<lighting Armor. Then I don't understand you.


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## Rocky (Jul 23, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> "Physical power coupled with his immense durability", what? Physical strength doesn't increase resistance to damage, what do you mean "coupled with"?



Immense physical strength makes it easier to block someone with immense physical strength themselves. I mean, there are guys that can block the Hulk that aren't even close to him, and that's one example in many. Even though Tsunade's ridiculously strong, so is Ei. You could argue there's a large gap, and I'd agree with you. However, this gap is no bigger than say, the gap between Sage Naruto & Tendo.



> And yes, the _Susano'o_ cracking feat is why. I don't think Ay could take anything _Susano'o_ itself couldn't. Even her 20 years out of shape feats in Part 1 cause me to feel he wouldn't be able to just block her strike and keep going without jacking up his arm in the process. And heck, that _Tsutenkyaku_ was still apparently _natural_ (being labeled as Taijutsu in the databook instead of Ninjutsu like chakra-enhanced punches, and believably so given her lifting Bunta's blade), imagine what that would be like when she's in shape, and even worse, when magnified by her chakra. Her strength has gotten way more attention than his durability, and I simply don't feel he can take her blow without being injured for it.



When someone guards against an attack, the damage is reduced. That's the point of guarding. Ei can crack Susano'o, yet Madara could block him without injury. Hell, Jiraiya could launch a giant bull, yet Human real one-handed him. As long as Ei avoids taking a direct punch, he's fine.




> Raiton diffuses Raiton. _Chidori_'s penetrative power wasn't at it's height in that situation.



Maybe Chidori diffused the cloak? Sasuke's hand was obviously still covered in lightning, so there is no indication that the technique was weaker. Besides, Ei still has his cutting resistance feats against Maubi & Sasuke's sword. 



> I think Sasuke would break his fingers on _Susano'o _if he hit it with _Chidori_, honestly.



I honestly don't know why you think that.


*@ Pirate*

He'll figure out her strength long before she actually lands a hit. Ei's does tend to dodge things as well. I have a hard time believing he's just going to stand there and do nothing while she swings at him.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 23, 2013)

Flaming Rain and I post in stereo.

Except for Sasuke breaking his fingers.  I don't think that would happen.


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## Rocky (Jul 23, 2013)

Tell me, if Ei couldn't punch Madara out with one hit, how will Tsunade punch out Ei? Do we really believe the strength gap between Ei & Tsunade is larger than the one between Ei & Base Madara?


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## trance (Jul 23, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> I learned the hard way, but Sasukes Chidori did a lot more then just "scratch" Ay. It pierced his skin around 2 to 3 inches. Lets not compare Chidori to Tsunades strentgh even if they do deliver different types of damage.  Her finger created a giant fissure. She accomplished that feat almost effortlessly.
> 
> I'm surprised about this coming from you. The same person who thinks destroying Sasukes chest region is more impressive then cracking Sussano. If Tsunade didn't just "destroy"
> But absolutely obliterated pretty much all of Madara's body, then why wouldn't she be able to hurt Ay? Unless you assume Sussano<lighting Armor. Then I don't understand you.



Considering Sasuke's Chidori probably would've blown a hole clean through his body without RnY, it's impressive.

Now, visualize this...

They start with no knowledge, so I'm gonna say Tsunade uses much less than her full strength (which is still insane as you mentioned her finger fissure) while Ei either dodges with ease or tanks it. If he tanks it, I can see it at most staggering him (remember this is Tsunade's less than full strength attack). When that happens, he'll realize she has the strength to cause him damage and then goes V1 and proceed to continuously evade her attacks while delivering lethal karate chops  which causes her to get serious and use Byakugo to heal the wounds. Ei then sees her wounds rapidly healing and decides that he has to decapitate her (as he won't know her regeneration has a limit and probably won't bother to find out since Ei doesn't like to drag things out). He then goes V2 and blindsides and decapitates her or cuts her arms (since he'll know those are his biggest problems).


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 23, 2013)

For funzies, go compare old rusty Tsunade's  vs Orochimaru, to Ei's  on Sasuke-his best move and most destructive feat.  

Hers is about 1.5-2x as large, and deeper.  She's probably gotten stronger since then, since I don't think she's stayed static.  I mean, the Tsunade who fought armless Oro and Kabuto can't be the one who played rock em sock em edos with Madara, which shouldn't be how I call that fight because he mostly rocked and socked the kages, but it sounded fun to say so I couldn't help myself.

Base Madara also taijutsu clashed a lot with Hashirama, and Hashirama is super Tsunade.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> When someone guards against an attack, the damage is reduced. That's the point of guarding. Ei can crack Susano'o, yet Madara could block him without injury. Hell, Jiraiya could launch a giant bull, yet Human real one-handed him. As long as Ei avoids taking a direct punch, he's fine.



The point of guarding is to reduce injurious damage done to the core of the body by using something else, and whatever you block with, will suffer the damage. I can kick someone hard enough to break their arm, whether they're as strong as I am or whether they have it in front of their face (or chest-gear, in my case) or anywhere else has little effect on whether or not I can break it.

Madara blocked Ay because Madara's body is just that durable, period. Madara is Madara, durability feat for him, he is just that much better than Jugo (Ay _chopped_ Sasuke's _Susano'o_, and _punched_ Madara, tho). It was not because his arm somehow took less damage by being held in a different position. If Ay hit with enough force to break _Madara_'s bones, he would have done it there block or not. I don't get your Human Realm example either, because we already saw what happens when Jiraiya kicks a Human. Sage Jiraiya is hella strong, he would shatter a normal person's bones, but when he kicked Human in the head what happened? His eyes got hurt cuz those are squishy, but his nose didn't break and his skull didn't crack. He was only able to catch that punch because his body was durable enough to not break in doing so.



> Maybe Chidori diffused the cloak?



Possibly.



> I honestly don't know why you think that.



Just a feel not heavily based on anything other than my own picturing him stabbing it reminding me of Danzo snapping his Kunai _(1)_.


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## Rocky (Jul 23, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> The point of guarding is to reduce injurious damage done to the core of the body by using something else, and whatever you block with, will suffer the damage. I can kick someone hard enough to break their arm, whether they're as strong as I am or whether they have it in front of their face (or chest-gear, in my case) or anywhere else has little effect on whether or not I can break it.



It's very unlikely that someone just as physical capable as you will falter to one guarded kick. If that's person's wearing armor, it's even less likely.



> Madara blocked Ay because Madara's body is just that durable, period. Madara is Madara, durability feat for him, he is just that much better than Jugo. It was not because his arm somehow took less damage by being held in a different position. If Ay hit with enough force to break _Madara_'s bones, he would have done it there block or not.



Madara's arm is not more durable than Sasuke's Susano'o, which Ei has broken the bones of. Is your new stance Madara's arm > Susano'o? Madara's even blocked Tsunade, yet you argue her muscles were cut using nothing but circumstantial evidence. There isn't any proof, and Kishimoto didn't mention it at all. Funny, right? Some believe we were just supposed to infer it based on something that happened hundreds of chapters ago.

Didn't Orochimaru also tank her punch back in part one, after her strength had returned? Yet you question Ei's ability to block her even back then?

Ei is plenty durable/strong enough to not have his bones shatter against Tsunade. Itachi was able to block Naruto, despite the latter being easily strong enough to break bone. 



> I don't get your Human Realm example either, because we already saw what happens when Jiraiya kicks a Human. Sage Jiraiya is hella strong, he would shatter a normal person's bones, but when he kicked Human in the head what happened? His eyes got hurt cuz those are squishy, but his nose didn't break and his skull didn't crack. He was only able to catch that punch because his body was durable enough to not break in doing so.



We can use other examples. Sage Naruto breaking Preta's neck with one indirect punch, yet Tendo  blocks and is uninjured. Are you going to take the stance that Tendo is massively more durable than Preta? You can, but I honestly see it as one blocked and one didn't.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> It's very unlikely that someone just as physical capable as you will falter to one guarded kick. If that's person's wearing armor, it's even less likely.



Pretty sure if I could manage to kick my own arm I would break it as well.



> Madara's arm is not more durable than Sasuke's Susano'o, which Ei has broken the bones of. Is your new stance Madara's arm > Susano'o?



No, I just pointed out that Ay broke Sasuke's _Susano'o_ with a _chop_, not a _punch_. He _punched_ Madara. Though it seems I edited that in after you quoted me.



> Madara's even blocked Tsunade, yet you argue her muscles were cut using nothing but circumstantial evidence. There isn't any proof, and Kishimoto didn't mention it at all. Funny, right? Some believe we were just supposed to infer it based on something that happened hundreds of chapters ago.



Yes I believe that if he hadn't noted her strength but did later, she seemingly suffered lacerations internally as well, and her strength can be disabled by cutting her muscles, we should infer that such was indeed the case here.

I don't think that's in any way a ridiculous interpretation.



> Didn't Orochimaru also tank her punch back in part one, after her strength had returned? Yet you question Ei's ability to block her even back then?



Orochimaru was initially KO'd by that punch, and woke up when Manda disappeared and he began falling which snapped him out of it. I don't think that's tanking, seeing as it had enough of an effect on him for him to realize he needed to escape instead of continuing. Orochimaru is also anatomically snakey and bendy and elastic for some reason- which should handle blunt force better than normal.

I do think Ay can block that Tsunade, I just question his ability to block without serious repercussions.



> Itachi was able to block Naruto, despite the latter being easily strong enough to break bone.



It looks like Naruto was the one blocking Itachi rather than the other way around if that little "burst" on Naruto's arm under Itachi's fist is anything to go by _(1)_.



> We can use other examples. Sage Naruto breaking Preta's neck with one indirect punch, yet Tendo blocks and is uninjured. Are you going to take the stance that Tendo is massively more durable than Preta? You can, but I honestly see it as one blocked and one didn't.



I thought the point of _Kawazu Kumite_ was that the natural energy aura acted as an actual physical extension of the body during attacks- like a _Hien_ that isn't a blade so much as a punch.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 23, 2013)

> Immense physical strength makes it easier to block someone with immense physical strength themselves. I mean, there are guys that can block the Hulk that aren't even close to him, and that's one example in many. Even though Tsunade's ridiculously strong, so is Ei. You could argue there's a large gap, and I'd agree with you. However, this gap is no bigger than say, the gap between Sage Naruto & Tendo.



Deva got his face his face kicked in through his guard, and flew across the field.  



> Madara's even blocked Tsunade, yet you argue her muscles were cut using nothing but circumstantial evidence. There isn't any proof, and Kishimoto didn't mention it at all. Funny, right? Some believe we were just supposed to infer it based on something that happened hundreds of chapters ago.



For starters, her kick looks awfully like it went under his guard.  But that aside, Tsunade was coughing blood and showed how her skin was rended from Mabui's teleportation.  Given how it's supposed to "tear people to pieces," and we know wounded Tsunade has less strength than normal Tsunade, it's not a wild or unjustified claim to say that surviving a trip through a blender made her kick less hard, given how she later blew up the same guy with a punch.  Legs are just stronger than arms, and so kicks are stronger than punches, obviously.  Hence why her best move is a heel drop.


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## Legend777 (Jul 23, 2013)

If Ei isn't being reckless I don't see Tsunade tagging him once he activates his Raiton no Yoroi . It'd be only a matter of time before he realizes that his normal punches wouldn't work , forcing him to go V2 and chopping her in half .

Ei wins this mid-hard diff .


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## Larcher (Jul 23, 2013)

Ei will always go into Raito no Yuri he has good comprehensive skills and I doubt he will not use it taking on board he knows nothing about her. 

It will all depend on who makes the first move if Tsunade starts making attempts at hitting first Ei should be able to grasp her superiority in strength and she won't be hitting him in even V1 and.

Since people are talking about how people act in character Tsunade usually starts off in Taijutsu and won't summon Katsuya for  a considerable amount of time which is a big role to what separates her from the V2 Blitz

I feel that Ei will most likely decicde to interchange form V1 to V2 and finishing her off form then on would be self explanatory.


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## Alita (Jul 23, 2013)

What's stopping A from blitzing tsunade and chopping her head off agian?


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## Veracity (Jul 23, 2013)

Trance said:


> Considering Sasuke's Chidori probably would've blown a hole clean through his body without RnY, it's impressive.
> 
> Now, visualize this...
> 
> They start with no knowledge, so I'm gonna say Tsunade uses much less than her full strength (which is still insane as you mentioned her finger fissure) while Ei either dodges with ease or tanks it. If he tanks it, I can see it at most staggering him (remember this is Tsunade's less than full strength attack). When that happens, he'll realize she has the strength to cause him damage and then goes V1 and proceed to continuously evade her attacks while delivering lethal karate chops  which causes her to get serious and use Byakugo to heal the wounds. Ei then sees her wounds rapidly healing and decides that he has to decapitate her (as he won't know her regeneration has a limit and probably won't bother to find out since Ei doesn't like to drag things out). He then goes V2 and blindsides and decapitates her or cuts her arms (since he'll know those are his biggest problems).



How do you know Chidori would do so? If anything, that helps my point out. Chidori hasn't show to actually be that impressive. Aside from cutting through a chest region(pretty easily) and tearing through Garras Sand shield. The latter being pretty impressive I guess. However, Tsunade with her FINGER tore though solid ground literally effortlessly. Unless you want to nit pick at every Tsunade feat, and continue to downgrade her then let's put  this into perspective. Honestly, just think about the damage your finger can do compared to your full punch. There is an extremely wide gap.

Now visualize this...

Ay rushes in base(no implication to assume he's any faster then Tsunade), he goes in for the punch only for Tsunade to dodge and counterstrike. She hits him in the chest and proceeds to destroy and all of his chest and muscle bones. He no longer is in a condition to battle. One more hit will end him.


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## Ennoia (Jul 23, 2013)

I would assume that base A is still superior to Tsunade in speed, Zetsu pretty much confirmed this when he was blitzed. I have trouble believing that Tsunade could even tag base A in which case he is far less likely to even attempt to tank her attack and when she misses he will know of her strength. There is no situation in which I see him getting hit to even talk about whether or not he can tank it.


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## trance (Jul 23, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> How do you know Chidori would do so? If anything, that helps my point out. Chidori hasn't show to actually be that in impressive. Aside from cutting through a chest region(pretty easily) and tearing through Garras Sand shield. The later being pretty impressive I guess.



Ei's praise implied that few things can harm him in RnY, even a concentrated, piercing attack like Chidori. 

Hell, Sasuke's Raiton-enhanced katana bounced off Ei's RnY.

And yes, Part I Sasuke tore through Gaara's condensed sand sphere with insane ease and only become stronger over the timeskip.



> However, Tsunade with ou her FINGER tore though the solid grown literally effortlessly. Unless you won't to nit pick at every Taunase and feat, and continue to downgrade her then let's out this into perspective.



I'm not downgrading Tsunade. You're downgrading Ei. He's not as durable as his father but he still has some ridiculous durability. As Rocky pointed out, he survived Mabui's technique with *no damage* when Mabui said that aside from Ei's father, no one could ever hope to survive as they would be torn to shreds.



> You're Honestly, just think about the damage your finger can do compared to your full punch. There is an extremely wide gap.



I understand that Tsunade *does* have the strength to kill *if* she connected with direct punch. Keyword though: if.



> Now visualize this...
> 
> Ay rushes in base(*no implication to assume he's any faster then Tsunade*), he goes in for the punch only for Tsunade to dodge and counterstrike. She hits him in the chest and proceeds to destroy and all of his chest and muscle bones. He no longer is in a condition to battle. One more hit will end him.



Are you kidding? Even in base, Ei's the fastest of the Five Kage. Tsunade's not slow but she's simply not in Ei's league.


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## Veracity (Jul 23, 2013)

Trance said:


> Ei's praise implied that few things can harm him in RnY, even a concentrated, piercing attack like Chidori.
> 
> Hell, Sasuke's Raiton-enhanced katana bounced off Ei's RnY.
> 
> ...



It's implied that few things can survive Tsunades punch. Especially after shattering Sussano. It's also implied that Ay has no where near the level of defense Sussano applies. This is shown when a Chidori pierced 3 inches into him. You can't deny that Sasuke would break his freaking fingers on any form of Sussano. So then again, this implies that Tsunades punch would have the same effect on Ay that it did on Sussano. UNLESS you can prove that RnY>Sussano or Sussano<Chidori, then what I said still stands. She's going to shatter Ay.

The funny part is that im not even arguing about RnY Ay, I'm taking about Base Ay's durability. Of course you could compensate by saying Tsunade won't apply a lot of power, but then again you all claim that RnY increasing his durability a substantial amount, so he's still taking extremely severe wounds from a single punch in base form.

Also, Ay surviving Mabuis technique actually gives the win to Tsunade. It is impressive that he did survive the tech, however it is a fact that he was pierced by a mere Chidori. Tsunade on the other hand survived this technique with her regen. This proves that unless Ay can completely shred her body instantly, then she won't die. With the help of Katusyu, she can trump Ay.


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## trance (Jul 23, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> It's implied that few things can survive Tsunades punch. Especially after shattering Sussano. It's also implied that Ay has no where near the level of defense Sussano applies. This is shown when a Chidori pierced 3 inches into him. You can't deny that Sasuke would break his freaking fingers on any form of Sussano. So then again, this implies that Tsunades punch would have the same effect on Ay that it did on Sussano. UNLESS you can prove that RnY>Sussano or Sussano<Chidori, then what I said still stands. She's going to shatter Ay.



It's actually very possible that Chidori could pierce Susanoo. It's a *concentrated, piercing attack*. So piercing tough defenses shouldn't be new for Chidori.



> The funny part is that im not even arguing about RnY Ay, I'm taking about Base Ay's durability. Of course you could compensate by saying Tsunade won't apply a lot of power, but then again you all claim that RnY increasing his durability a substantial amount, *so he's still taking extremely severe wounds for a single punch in base form*.



Again, that's *if* she connects. You keep forgetting base Ei > Tsunade in speed. 



> Also, Ay surviving Mabuis technique actually gives the win to Tsunade. It is impressive that he did survive the tech, however it is a fact that he was pierced by a mere Chidori. Tsunade on the other hand survived this technique with her regen. This prows that unless Ay can completely shred her body instantly, then she won't die. With the help of Katusyu, she can trump Ay.



She's not regenerating her head being cut off and Ei can slice off body parts with ease.

Also, Katsuyu may not be restricted but this has become a battle between super strength users as PoW said.


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## Rocky (Jul 23, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Pretty sure if I could manage to kick my own arm I would break it as well.



How does MMA even fucntion.




> I don't think that's in any way a ridiculous interpretation.



I do, because it's a significant point and it was never mentioned that it was actually the case. The only reason it's brought up is because people think Madara shouldn't be able to block Tsunade. 

Based on how this Manga is written, Kishimoto wouldn't leave something like that up in the air for us to infer. Especially not since the last time it happened was hundreds of chapters ago.



> Orochimaru is also anatomically snakey and bendy and elastic for some reason- which should handle blunt force better than normal.



Orochimaru's skull is still a solid, hard skull. A skull that remained intact.




> It looks like Naruto was the one blocking Itachi rather than the other way around if that little "burst" on Naruto's arm under Itachi's fist is anything to go by _(1)_.



Itachi guarded against Naruto's kick in that panel, and they also traded hits while they were falling.



> I thought the point of _Kawazu Kumite_ was that the natural energy aura acted as an actual physical extension of the body during attacks- like a _Hien_ that isn't a blade so much as a punch.



Pretty much. When Naruto scored a clean hit on Preta Path, he broke its neck. When he struck Deva, the path was able to guard, and he just got sent flying. Tendo isn't even durable enough to _survive_ a Base Rasengan, so I'm hesitant to attribute that to the 'insane durability' Tendo might have.

I think if Ei blocked Tsunade, he would get sent flying, just like Tendo did against Naruto. Or Muu against Ei, etc.


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## Veracity (Jul 23, 2013)

Trance said:


> It's actually very possible that Chidori could pierce Susanoo. It's a *concentrated, piercing attack*. So piercing tough defenses shouldn't be new for Chidori.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No it won't. Something as simple as Chidori isn't going to Sussano. One of the greatest defenses.
Sasuke. If Onnoki has to increase Ay's weight for him to simply crack Sussano. Then a weak ass Chidori isn't doing much even if it's piercing damage. 

The thing is, you can't prove this. Base Ay has no impressive speed feats. V1  Ay isn't even that impressive. Tsunade managed to fight along side v1 Ay just fine, and attacked in conjunction with him. Stop underestimating her.

If the technique didn't have the power to shred her face and neck apart, then how will Ay? It's not even in his character to do so. I see him performing a body slam or a simple punch.

Why wouldn't she be smart and use her slug? It an tank blows and is a major distaraction. She could just have a bunch of mini slugs crawl on her and she could yank anything Ay dishes out


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## trance (Jul 23, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> No it won't. Something as simple as Chidori isn't going to Sussano. One of the greatest defenses.
> Sasuke. If Onnoki has to increase Ay's weight for him to simply crack Sussano. Then a weak ass Chidori isn't doing much even if it's piercing damage.



He did more than crack it. He replicated Tsunade's feat of damaging Susanoo.



> The thing is, you can't prove this. Base Ay has no impressive speed feats.



Base Ei grabbed Zetsu before any of the other Kage, their bodyguards and Mifune could react.



> *V1  Ay isn't even that impressive*.



This is a joke and serious underestimation of Ei's speed.

In V1, he was keeping up with and initially outpacing KCM Naruto (who was serious but not fully serious like he was when he dodged Ei's V2 attack). 

Tsunade has no hope of keeping up with KCM Naruto.



> *Tsunade managed to fight along side v1 Ay just fine, and attacked in conjunction with him*. Stop underestimating her.



Scans? 



> If the technique didn't have the power to shred her face and neck apart, then how will Ay?



What? 



> *It's not even in his character to do so*. I see him performing a body slam or a simple punch.



He doesn't use his chop as much as his punch but he's used it enough it can be considered part of his main arsenal.



> Why wouldn't she be smart and use her slug? It an tank blows and is a major distaraction. She could just have a bunch of mini slugs crawl on her and she could yank anything Ay dishes out



It was meant as a joke since this debate has been about Ei and Tsunade and no one was bringing up Katsuyu.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 23, 2013)

The ribcage of Susano'o isn't a hugely impressive defensive, in the grand scheme of things. Ei took off a couple ribs with his attacks and was confident his third attack would break right through. And Sasuke didn't say his defense had surpassed Gaara's until he used the full bone form. And I remember Chidori going through Gaara's defense.

The notion that a Chidori against the ribcage of Susano'o would go the same way as a kunai is....mind numbing.


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## Veracity (Jul 23, 2013)

Trance said:


> He did more than crack it. He replicated Tsunade's feat of damaging Susanoo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It did indeed, however that has a heavy v2 Ay. So that's completely irrelevant.

Was Tsunade present when Ay did so? Don't make me pull out that Madara fireball scan.

Tsunade fought in conjunction with Ay:
feat of damaging Susanoo

And you might want to read this to get a better understanding of her speed:
feat of damaging Susanoo

And this:


Lol and guess it is a hella of a lot more interesting just 1 on 1. 
In 1 on 1 only, I think it will be a really good battle, however with Katsuyu, I think she can win.


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 23, 2013)

Suigetsu and Juugo reacted to him and Tsunade was able to fight in tandem with him. She is also the Hokage. I believe she can react to his V1 attacks just fine and unlike most shinobi in the manga, she is actually strong enough to block his attacks and counterattack effectively. Tsunade will be getting pressured by his speed so she uses byakugou using her healing, strength, and durability to make up for the speed disadvantage. Tsunade should have an advantage because those hits she is delivering to A will be catching up to him fast while Tsunade will just heal.

However the fight takes a sudden turn when A upgrades to V2. His speed should be too fast for her to track. However, he takes a little time to pump chakra into his shroud. Tsunade may feel uneasy and opt to summon Katsuya. If she does, she can win this with acid coming from different directions and if she is knocked down and he jumps in mid air for the finish, acid could be a problem for him. Tsunade might win like that. Acid+Punch combo. 

If she does not summon Katsuya, A will have a nice advantage. I doubt he will think he needs to instantly go for decapitation and I believe all of his attacks have not even had any blade like qualities. I could be wrong here cause I don't know A that well. But he should be knocking her around like a pinball. She is going to need an opening to summon. A can win if he uses some blade like attack and decapitates if we are assuming that is the only way to defeat byakugou. He will need to do this before she summons however.

It is also worth noting that her nerve scramble would be perfect against an opponent who is as physical as A. This would allow her to deliver a vicious series of attacks before A even upgrades to V2.

Definitely a good match, but I like Tsunade's odds a bit more than A's here. So Tsunade with extreme difficulty.



Rocky said:


> Itachi could block Sage Kabuto, and KCM Naruto. Deva could block Sage Naruto. Madara could block Ei. Kakashi could block the V2 Jinchuriki. Muu could block Ei. Human realm could block Jiraiya....


Itachi against Sage Kabuto showed similar strength between them. Both flew back the same distance after the collision. So I doubt Snake SM grants too big of a strength increase. I think against KCM Naruto that shows how much he held back both speed wise and strength wise. Their kicks collided and they deflected off each other. Naruto is a similar level of strength to Itachi in base. In KCM, his strength increases greatly so kicks shouldn't be deflecting as if even in strength. Deva, Madara, and Kakashi all flew back when they blocked. Think Muu didn't block. Human Realm appears to just be really strong. He blocked his punch with 1 hand.

I agree with the point you are making though. Being stronger does not mean you can not necessarily block. Like A vs Tsunade here.


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## Pein (Jul 23, 2013)

Ei, low difficulty. Tsunade ain't tagging him and even if she does it ain't putting down Ay who has insane durability and pain tolerance. His fastest punch would obliterate her head.


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## trance (Jul 23, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Was Tsunade present when Ay did so? Don't make me pull out that Madara fireball scan.



So, Tsunade can react faster than Gaara, Dānzo and Mifune all of whom have solid reaction/movement speed feats?



> Tsunade fought in conjunction with Ay:
> here



That's attacking speed. I'm talking about movement speed. Base Bee and V1 Ei Lariat'd each at the same time, it doesn't make base Bee faster than his brother.



> And you might want to read this to get a better understanding of her speed:
> here
> 
> And this:



I'll get back to you on both of these.



> Lol and guess it is a hella of a lot more interesting just 1 on 1.
> In 1 on 1 only, I think it will be a really good battle, however with Katsuyu, I think she can win.



People just overhype Katsuyu to Skyfather levels. She's tough but she's not invincible.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> How does MMA even fucntion.



Lot's of paramedics and wrapping stuff to hold crap in place. 



> I do, because it's a significant point and it was never mentioned that it was actually the case. The only reason it's brought up is because people think Madara shouldn't be able to block Tsunade.



Reasonably so: she can hit him in the chest so hard that she takes off half of his arm _(1)_ , but putting his arms up somehow doesn't result in him missing an arm? I can see why people have a hard time getting on board with that.

Successful block or not (though the position of Tsunade's foot, it's direction, and the crescent his body makes looks like Tsunade's kick went under his arms and hit him in the stomach imo)- he would have still noted her strength there had she been at full strength, and he didn't until she hit _Susano'o_.



> Based on how this Manga is written, Kishimoto wouldn't leave something like that up in the air for us to infer. Especially not since the last time it happened was hundreds of chapters ago.



Kishi _does_ leave things like that up in the air tho: Kishi didn't bring up the _Rinnegan_'s chakra vision when everybody _except_ Madara could see through Mei's mist- but we can still reasonably assume it was because of the _Rinnegan_ being clouded by the chakra visual before Mei made the mist thick enough to obscure everyone else's vision.



> Orochimaru's skull is still a solid, hard skull.



I honestly doubt it _(2)_.



> Itachi guarded against Naruto's kick in that panel, and they also traded hits while they were falling.



I think Itachi's leg was raised above Naruto's kick before it connected. The speed lines on Itachi's foot are going upwards instead of towards Naruto like the rest of his body. And Naruto seems to be on the defensive on the way down up until Killer Bee swings Samehada at him, where Itachi retreated before being hit by Naruto's next swing.



> Pretty much. When Naruto scored a clean hit on Preta Path, he broke its neck. When he struck Deva, the path was able to guard, and he just got sent flying. Tendo isn't even durable enough to _survive_ a Base Rasengan, so I'm hesitant to attribute that to the 'insane durability' Tendo might have.



You don't have to actually break bone to break a neck, just dislocate something. The bones in your arm are harder to dislocate- your arm just gets pushed back into a bend whereas your neck can twist way out of line and not line back up.



> I think if Ei blocked Tsunade, he would get sent flying, just like Tendo did against Naruto. Or Muu against Ei, etc.



I still see an arm breaking as he's sent flying to be honest. 

I also don't think Muu blocked, if he tried to he failed, he looks like he just got hit and flew both when Ay first appeared and when being lightened by Onoki.


----------



## Veracity (Jul 23, 2013)

Trance said:


> So, Tsunade can react faster than Gaara, Dānzo and Mifune all of whom have solid reaction/movement speed feats?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I could say the same thing about Tsunades fireball feat, in which Ay witnessed.

With Bee, they have to time their speed in conjunction and perfectly balance their power. That's the point of the double lariat.  Don't you dare say Ay slowed down for Tsunade. He has no reason to. She just kept perfect lace with him. And wouldn't attack speed really help in this debate? Regarding Tsunade close range dodging his attacks. Plus Base Ay has poor movement feats.

& because Katsuyu is a fucking Boss!


----------



## trance (Jul 23, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> I could say the same thing about Tsunades fireball feat, in which Ay witnessed.



Bring it up.



> With Bee, they have to time their speed in conjunction and perfectly balance their power. That's the point of the double lariat.



They were opposing each other, so it was separate Lariats instead of a double.



> Don't you dare say Ay slowed down for Tsunade. He has no reason to. She just kept perfect lace with him. And wouldn't attack speed really help in this debate?



It would help if Ei was attacking her but I'm talking about evading (i.e. movement speed).



> Regarding Tsunade close range dodging his attacks.



Her attack speed is the same as his. Meaning they can throw a punch at the same time but we're talking about movement speed which Ei excels at.



> Plus Base Ay has poor movement feats.



So, restraining Zetsu before any of the Kages (who like I said have good speed feats) could react is a "poor feat"?



> & because Katsuyu is a *fucking Boss!*



Eh.


----------



## Ennoia (Jul 23, 2013)

I would argue their attack speed is not the same, his reflexes surpass hers. The link of both of them attacking means nothing as they were both transported directly infront of the attackers; all it shows is that they were both capable of reacting not that their reaction speeds are close to each other. And Madara and Kabuto were stunned by the flash of light, that instance dosent prove anything. Tsunade has very few reaction feats to say shes consistently dodging or capable of tagging A.


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 23, 2013)

What are y'all talking about? Tsunade has been performing combination attacks with A, attacking before A could, and appears faster than Suigetsu and Juugo who BOTH reacted to A. She blocks his attacks just fine. And to land a hit? She can easily grab his fist since she can react and since she is stronger she can pull him towards her while punching with the other hand. She can tank a punch to create an opening and land a hit. She can take a Raiger Bomber and respond with a kick to his chest. Not that difficult of a concept to get. And if she opts to use nerve scrambler.... then this match is over. Cause she can wreck him 10 times over before his nerve signals get back to normal.


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## Ennoia (Jul 23, 2013)

Provide links. Every time I see something that has to do with Tsunade the feats are extremely bias.


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## Veracity (Jul 23, 2013)

Trance said:


> Bring it up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You mean the feat where she intercepts Madara's Katon before any of the Kage could react? Basically the same feat Ay provided but on a much higher level seeing as they all were In battle mode1)

IIRC they both still have to equal their attacking power. I'll re read those chapters. It's still irrelevant though, cause Ay had absolutely no reason to slow for her.

Nobody cares if Ay has faster movement speed. He's Ay, he's going to rush in and lose his entire chest region, because Tsunade( yep I just said Tsunade) has faster reactions then base Ay. End of discussion. Unless you can prove that base Ay has after reactions and more defense then Sussano. 

I've ready proven that Tsunade is pretty even to v1 Ay. Not its time for you to prove me wrong.

Or just like rosencrantz just said, she could simply tap him and scramble his nerves. There  you go, end of game


----------



## Ennoia (Jul 23, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> You mean the feat where she intercepts Madara's Katon before any of the Kage could react? Basically the same feat Ay provided but on a much higher level seeing as they all were In battle mode1)


Tsunade was in battle mode as she has her seal active, everyone else was tired and out of gas. This is most true for Onoki because he literally just said he was out of chakra.



> Nobody cares if Ay has faster movement speed. He's Ay, he's going to rush in and lose his entire chest region, because Tsunade( yep I just said Tsunade) has faster reactions then base Ay. End of discussion. Unless you can prove that base Ay has after reactions and more defense then Sussano.


Show her reaction speed, A blitzed Zetsu before anyone did anything and Zetsu commented on his speed after seeing most battles in history and knowing Itachi's abilities; this is the ultimate comment. She has nothing comparable to this.



> I've ready proven that Tsunade is pretty even to v1 Ay. Not its time for you to prove me wrong.


You didnt though, you arnt looking at the whole picture. You showed her and A attacking Madara and Mu with proves nothing, her attacking Madara after Mizukage attacked him which proves nothing, and her reacting with the seal released when everyone else was tired. These are not notable feats.



> Or just like rosencrantz just said, she could simply tap him and scramble his nerves. There  you go, end of game


You cant seriously think she is landing that, this has only worked on a man with his eyes closed.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 23, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> because Tsunade( yep I just said Tsunade) has faster reactions then base Ay.



No she doesn't.

Ay has beast mode reflexes. Tsunade has great reflexes _and_ adaptive judgment skills on top of those that, in the end, afford her a greater window of time to react to attacks than her raw reflexes alone. Most fighters can't predict or recognize patterns as well as Tsunade, and only start reacting once something is closer- they react _instinctively_ when something is near. Tsunade is trained to predict an incoming event and start timing/coordinating her movements earlier on than what she would if relying solely on her reflexes. Of course, she has to have prior experience witnessing it recognize it in order to do that, unlike Ay, but in this particular case I'm pretty sure a war veteran would have witnessed dragon head Katons before.

Tsunade intercepted it before Ay because she _already knew where the fireballs were going to be at what time before they actually got there_. Think about it as a knock-off Sharingan, but Ay is still more _reflexive_ than she is. Put Ay and Tsunade up against Killer Bee's 7-sword-style and guess who does better. (Hint: Ay).


----------



## Veracity (Jul 23, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> No she doesn't.
> 
> Ay has beast mode reflexes. Tsunade has great reflexes _and_ adaptive judgment skills on top of those that, in the end, afford her a greater window of time to react to attacks than her raw reflexes alone. Most fighters can't predict or recognize patterns as well as Tsunade, and only start reacting once something is closer- they react _instinctively_ when something is near. Tsunade is trained to predict an incoming event and start timing/coordinating her movements earlier on than what she would if relying solely on her reflexes. Of course, she has to have prior experience witnessing it recognize it in order to do that, unlike Ay, but in this particular case I'm pretty sure a war veteran would have witnessed dragon head Katons before.
> 
> Tsunade intercepted it before Ay because she _already knew where the fireballs were going to be at what time before they actually got there_. Think about it as a knock-off Sharingan, but Ay is still more _reflexive_ than she is. Put Ay and Tsunade up against Killer Bee's 7-sword-style and guess who does better. (Hint: Ay).



Show me some base Ay feats.


----------



## Veracity (Jul 23, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Tsunade was in battle mode as she has her seal active, everyone else was tired and out of gas. This is most true for Onoki because he literally just said he was out of chakra.
> 
> 
> Show her reaction speed, A blitzed Zetsu before anyone did anything and Zetsu commented on his speed after seeing most battles in history and knowing Itachi's abilities; this is the ultimate comment. She has nothing comparable to this.
> ...



I'm not even talking to you. Don't butt in this debate and add absolutely nothing. Your post is useless to me. Especially considering you don't prove anything, you just say that all her speed feats prove nothing. This is even the case with the Katon feat, which apparently AY of all people was far more exhausted then Tsunade. Stop quoting me, I'm not taking to you.


----------



## Ennoia (Jul 23, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> I'm not even talking to you. Don't butt in this debate and add absolutely nothing. Your post is useless to me. Especially considering you don't prove anything, you just say that all her speed feats prove nothing. This is even the case with the Katon feat, which apparently AY of all people was far more exhausted then Tsunade. Stop quoting me, I'm not taking to you.





Likes boss said:


> Tsunade fought in conjunction with Ay:
> (1)
> 
> In 1 on 1 only, I think it will be a really good battle, however with Katsuyu, I think she can win.


The link of both of them attacking means nothing as they were both transported directly infront of the attackers; all it shows is that they were both capable of reacting not that their reaction speeds are close to each other. And Madara and Kabuto were stunned by the flash of light, that instance dosent prove anything. Tsunade has very few reaction feats to say shes consistently dodging or capable of tagging A.

Katsuya provides no support because she has no speed feats that says she is of any use.


Likes boss said:


> I could say the same thing about Tsunades fireball feat, in which Ay witnessed.
> 
> With Bee, they have to time their speed in conjunction and perfectly balance their power. That's the point of the double lariat.  Don't you dare say Ay slowed down for Tsunade. He has no reason to. She just kept perfect lace with him. And wouldn't attack speed really help in this debate? Regarding Tsunade close range dodging his attacks. Plus Base Ay has poor movement feats.
> 
> & because Katsuyu is a fucking Boss!


Base A has poor movement feats yet grabbed Zetsu because anyone could react.

You said Tsunade reacted when everyone else couldnt, they were all tired and she had her seal active, you cannot refute that she was near peak at the time.

You said it was a feat for her catching up to hit Madara. This is not a feat because she was standing directly infront of him and Mei threw him towards Tsunade (you can tell because she looks to have tossed him over the Water Spout) and A. Even in this moment Tsunade has ample time to get in position to attack making it not a speed feat. If she was so fast she would have dodged his attack instead of standing there being saved by Mei.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 23, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> You said Tsunade reacted when everyone else couldnt, they were all tired and she had her seal active, you cannot refute that she was near peak at the time.



No she wasn't near her peak and people need to stop acting like she was. _Byakugo_ _*does not*_ remove fatigue. And given that Tsunade passed out as soon as she deflected those fireballs, I'd say she was every bit as tired as they were _if not moreso_. The other Kage were in no worse a condition than she was, and heck Ay would have been in the _best_ condition of any Kage because he has the most stamina by far, so let's not use this  "they were tired" excuse because _so was she_.


----------



## LostSelf (Jul 24, 2013)

Tsunade was fatigated and without damage and the other kages were fatigated but with damage. She still was in better condition than them.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 24, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Tsunade was fatigated and without damage and the other kages were fatigated but with damage. She still was in better condition than them.



Please show me the injuries of the other Kages.

Actually, I want you to show me any of them were as tired as Tsunade was, to the point where they were about to pass out as soon as they did anything.


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## Punished Pathos (Jul 24, 2013)

A gets one shotted.
The long way ends up somewhere between A blitzing Tsunade only to find out that the Slug Princess can regenerate and shatter nerves upon contact.
Tsunade can counter A's jutsu with that Body Pathway Derangement jutsu.
The jutsu she used on Kabuto.
It confuses the nerves system, something that is a big catalyst in A's speed Jutsu.
As soon as Tsunade and A trade blows, this will take effect.
A will lose his biggest power.


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 24, 2013)

E is a billion times faster than Tsunde.

He can raiton shroud her head off before she can even fucking begin to make the seals for Byakugo.

Not even close to fair what the fuck is this thread.


----------



## Veracity (Jul 24, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> The link of both of them attacking means nothing as they were both transported directly infront of the attackers; all it shows is that they were both capable of reacting not that their reaction speeds are close to each other. And Madara and Kabuto were stunned by the flash of light, that instance dosent prove anything. Tsunade has very few reaction feats to say shes consistently dodging or capable of tagging A.
> 
> Katsuya provides no support because she has no speed feats that says she is of any use.
> 
> ...



The light flashing has nothing to nothing to do with anything.
If Ay was faster he would would have hit first. End of discussion.

Also, you probably should read the next page of that scan. He doesnt have the energy tk react, but the energy to jump after Tsunade?Fatigued my ass

Katsuyu doesn't need speed feats to attach her self to Tsunade.


----------



## trance (Jul 24, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> You mean the feat where she intercepts Madara's Katon before any of the Kage could react? Basically the same feat Ay provided but on a much higher level seeing as they all were In battle mode:Water Spout



Ei didn't do anything mostly likely because he thought Mei was gonna do something (as Suiton > Katon) and didn't know she couldn't (as it was in her mind that she said she wouldn't make it). So, Mei was the one who directly got outsped. Also, Madara's Katon is powerful but not all that fast. When he first appeared, a bunch of fodder reacted to and neutralized his Katon and later Mei did.



> IIRC they both still have to equal their attacking power.



Bee has slower movement speed than Ei (everyone knows that) but his attacking speed is equal to V1 Ei's.



> I'll re read those chapters. It's still irrelevant though, cause Ay had absolutely no reason to slow for her.



That whole transportation and knocking back Mū and Madara is a bit eh. I'm gonna say neither were using their top speed as they mainly repelled them to defend Gaara and Onōki.



> Nobody cares if Ay has faster movement speed. He's Ay, he's going to rush in and lose his entire chest region,



Who's to say Tsunade will use her full power punch. She may only give a warning punch and if you say Tsunade kills Ei with a non-serious punch, you're clearly downplaying.




> because *Tsunade( yep I just said Tsunade) has faster reactions then base Ay. End of discussion.* Unless you can prove that base Ay has after reactions and more defense then Sussano.



You haven't proven this. Not even close. 



> I've ready proven that Tsunade is pretty even to v1 Ay. *Not its time for you to prove me wrong.*



Oh I don't know...the fact that V1 Ei initially outpaced KCM Naruto, who is far faster than any of the other Kages?



> Or just like rosencrantz just said, she could simply tap him and scramble his nerves. There  you go, end of game



She got an arrogant, little punk who as Ennoia said had his eyes closed. With no knowledge, she's not using it at the beginning of the fight.

Also, there's no need for rudeness. Ennoia saw something he disagreed with and there's nothing wrong with jumping into the middle like he did since this is a public forum. FlamingRain did the same thing. 

If someone quoted me trying to disprove my side of the argument, I wouldn't even care.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 24, 2013)

I can see Mei being worn, but Ei's dad fought for three days straight, and Ei himself has bijuu level chakra supplies and stamina.  He's also the only guy on the team we never saw Tsunade give a chakra boost or heal.  The only "damage" he took the whole fight was the genjutsu attack, because susano swords bounced off his forearms.  Even when Madara pulled out perfect Susano, he told the Mizukage to shut up and wanted to continue fighting.  

I don't know why Tsunade beat him to the punch or suddenly got faster than Mei's suitons.  Perhaps Ei was counting on Mei, and Tsunade realized she wasn't going to make it first or just got more impatient.  But what I don't buy it being because he was too tired or injured to bolt at those fireballs.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 24, 2013)

> Ei didn't do anything mostly likely because he thought Mei was gonna do something (as Suiton > Katon) and didn't know she couldn't (as it was in her mind that she said she wouldn't make it). So, Mei was the one who directly got outsped. Also, Madara's Katon is powerful but not all that fast. When he first appeared, a bunch of fodder reacted to and neutralized his Katon and later Mei did.



That's a different katon.

Madara used the dragon flame bombs that Sasuke shot into the atmosphere.  Which means they do go pretty far pretty fast.  So fast, they even have feats of catching a tired and exhausted and near blind Itachi, and burning his sleeve off.  ...  Yeah.  I guess it's not bad by katon standards, but those are katon standards.  I just like to say Madara's are faster and better because it's Madara.


----------



## Veracity (Jul 24, 2013)

Trance said:


> Ei didn't do anything mostly likely because he thought Mei was gonna do something (as Suiton > Katon) and didn't know she couldn't (as it was in her mind that she said she wouldn't make it). So, Mei was the one who directly got outsped. Also, Madara's Katon is powerful but not all that fast. When he first appeared, a bunch of fodder reacted to and neutralized his Katon and later Mei did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I could say the same about the other Kage. They decided to watch cause Ay could handle it . Ay's arms>Zetsu. And why would Ay not dodge? He's fighting the strongest ninja he's ever faced during  a freaking war. He's not stupid. And it seems to me like Mei caused that Justu at the very last moment. Ay had time to dodge. Doesn't matter if fodder dodged it, Ay didn't react. End of discussion.

So is Tsunades.

How is that eh? You can't prove shit. Don't discount a feat just because you think it's "eh."
They're fighting the strongest Uchiha ever, they have no reason to slow down. She kept pace. End of discussion.

She created a large fissure in the ground with her freaking finger. I've already explained this. This is BASE Ay. She's still destroying his chest with even a casual punch. Stop backtracking. Base Ay has so-so defense. Nothing special without RnY .


I haven proven this? You haven't even mustered up a decent debate. She kept pace with v1 Ay. End of discussion.

I honestly don't care. She fought in conjunction with that same Ay.

If she an land a punch, then she can land a single touch. And the technique isnt specified to certain part of the body, doesn't even mention that in the wiki.

I think we're done here?


----------



## trance (Jul 24, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> That's a different katon.
> 
> Madara used the dragon flame bombs that Sasuke shot into the atmosphere.  Which means they do go pretty far pretty fast.  So fast, they even have feats of catching a tired and exhausted and near blind Itachi, and burning his sleeve off.  ...  Yeah.  I guess it's not bad by katon standards, but those are katon standards.  I just like to say Madara's are faster and better because it's Madara.



Your mentioning Itachi doesn't sound like much of a feat lol.


Likes boss said:


> I could say the same about the other Kage. They decided to watch cause Ay could handle it . Ay's arms>Zetsu. And why would Ay not dodge? He's fighting the strongest ninja he's ever faced during  a freaking war. He's not stupid. And it seems to me like Mei caused that Justu at the very last moment. Ay had time to dodge. Doesn't matter if fodder dodged it, Ay didn't react. End of discussion.
> 
> So is Tsunades.
> 
> ...



Wow, I had respect for you as a debater but this just spews "fanboy" and "downplay".

You're right. We're done here. 

Good fucking game.


----------



## LostSelf (Jul 24, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Please show me the injuries of the other Kages.
> 
> Actually, I want you to show me any of them were as tired as Tsunade was, to the point where they were about to pass out as soon as they did anything.



Of course they were injured, let's not make it look like Tsunade was much more injured than them when she had an instant jutsu that healed her all the time. They won't be having troubles to stand up for nothing. All of them were injured. The diference here is that Byakugo healed Tsunade, while the others didn't have that luxury.

Mei and Gaara were more tired than her i bet. They fell and couldn't stand up anymore until Onoki talked to them. Onoki was probably the only one not that tired, and he won't jump on those fireballs.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 24, 2013)

> Your mentioning Itachi doesn't sound like much of a feat lol.



Yeah.  It is incredibly hard to find a feat where a katon actually touches somebody who doesn't chop into it, and double rare for it to actually do damage.  

None the less, it's impossible for me to believe that a missile that Madara intended to "take down," the Gokage with something Itachi's arm can tank.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 24, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Of course they were injured, let's not make it look like Tsunade was much more injured than them when she had an instant jutsu that healed her all the time. They won't be having troubles to stand up for nothing. All of them were injured. The diference here is that Byakugo healed Tsunade, while the others didn't have that luxury.



I didn't say Tsunade was more injured. I asked for their injuries, which are pretty much _non-existent_ _at that moment much like Tsunade's own_.



> Mei and Gaara were more tired than her i bet. They fell and couldn't stand up anymore until Onoki talked to them.



You mean they were more tired than Tsunade _before_ she pumped Onoki with enough chakra to produce a _Jinton_ cube 1/3rd the size of _Perfect Susano'o_.

Afterwards, however, reason to believe they would have passed out in their next move?



> Onoki was probably the only one not that tired, and he won't jump on those fireballs.



He could have put a golem in the way again if he could act fast enough.


----------



## Bonly (Jul 24, 2013)

People still overrating Tsunade jumping in front of Madara's fire balls? Lol.


----------



## Veracity (Jul 24, 2013)

Trance said:


> Your mentioning Itachi doesn't sound like much of a feat lol.
> 
> 
> Wow, I had respect for you as a debater but this just spews "fanboy" and "downplay".
> ...



Lol thanks I guess? Because you can't prove me wrong?

I feel so unloved.

Cool I guess.


----------



## LostSelf (Jul 24, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I didn't say Tsunade was more injured. I asked for their injuries, which are pretty much _non-existent_ _at that moment much like Tsunade's own_.



We don't need to see their injuries. We already see them being kicked out by the Susano'os and being unable to return to the fight for a while.



> You mean they were more tired than Tsunade _before_ she pumped Onoki with enough chakra to produce a _Jinton_ cube 1/3rd the size of _Perfect Susano'o_.



We clearly saw Mei not being able to launch a suiton properly, something that doesn't require much physical movement, while Tsunade moved like nothing to take away the fireballs. It's clear she was in better conditions thanks to Byakugo.



> Afterwards, however, reason to believe they would have passed out in their next move?



They were in worse condition before Byakugo wore off.



> He could have put a golem in the way again if he could act fast enough.



But he wasn't. And this is the guy that could switch Ei's weight in time in his V2 state. He was surely messed up as well.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 24, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> We don't need to see their injuries. We already see them being kicked out by the Susano'os and being unable to return to the fight for a while.



Which would be because of fatigue, not because the strikes crippled them.

If we see the Kages and see no injuries on said Kages that means they're not there.



> We clearly saw Mei not being able to launch a suiton properly, something that doesn't require much physical movement, while Tsunade moved like nothing to take away the fireballs.



She was launching it just fine, Madara simply used a Katon quicker than the ones he was using earlier and she couldn't whip it up in time.



> They were in worse condition before Byakugo wore off.



No they were not.



> But he wasn't. And this is the guy that could switch Ei's weight in time in his V2 state. He was surely messed up as well.



Mmhmm.

Except there was no _injury_ he could be messed up by since he didn't get hit.


----------



## trance (Jul 24, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Lol thanks I guess? Because you can't prove me wrong?
> 
> I feel so unloved.
> 
> Cool I guess.



Becsuse you spout Tsunade is as fast as V1 Ei, can oneshot him with a non-serious punch, and somehow has far better reactions than him even though none of this shows in the manga? Either Tsunade fanboying (or girl) or Ei downplaying or both.

Well, I've said all I wanted. You can respond if you want, I'm done. 

Peace.


----------



## LostSelf (Jul 24, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Which would be because of fatigue, not because the strikes crippled them.
> 
> If we see the Kages and see no injuries on said Kages that means they're not there.



Gaara was using his sand to defend himself, Mei was using her mist. They stopped attacking after they were hit. Unless the Susano'os used Drain punch on them, what took them out of the fight was the hit.



> She was launching it just fine, Madara simply used a Katon quicker than the ones he was using earlier and she couldn't whip it up in time.



The last one? No. She countered a katon much closer before when she was in good condition, even if the last one was faster. But here, with a bigger distance, she couldn't do it in time, while Tsunade could do it. I don't see how Tsunade was in worse condition here.



> No they were not.



If regenerating all the damage she received, while the others did not healed their wounds, minors or not, is not being in better condition, i don't know what would be.

Tsunade has more stamina than Gaara and Mei, healed all the damage she received, and we see Mei's fatigated face when she was going to throw a suiton. Nothing says Tsunade was worse.



> Mmhmm.
> 
> Except there was no _injury_ he could be messed up by since he didn't get hit.



The kages (But Tsunade) fought Madara with no injuries. Now we know who's the weakest Kage .

Onoki had no more chakra left probably.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 24, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> They stopped attacking after they were hit.



Tired Kages being tired took a while to get up because they were tired.



> The last one? No. She countered a katon much closer before when she was in good condition, even if the last one was faster.



She was no closer that time tho.



> But here, with a bigger distance, she couldn't do it in time, while Tsunade could do it. I don't see how Tsunade was in worse condition here.



Because it was faster than the first one. Tsunade dealing with the fireballs first doesn't mean she's in better condition than Mei _or_ any of the other Kage.



> Tsunade has more stamina than Gaara and Mei, healed all the damage she received, and we see Mei's fatigated face when she was going to throw a suiton. Nothing, but speculation says Tsunade was worse.



 @ "fatigued face" when her face is no more fatigued than anyone else's.

Tsunade has more stamina, yes, but Tsunade and Mei have different skillsets, and Tsunade was using up more chakra than Mei was. Mei spat generic _Suitons_ and _Yotons_, Gaara using his sand like he always does. Tsunade was refilling all of their chakra reserves, healing, regenerating herself, and punching and kicking _Susano'o_s around with strength enhanced by chakra. However, where I can confirm Tsunade was exhausted enough to lose mobility after her next move, you can't confirm the same for Mei. As such, _*your*_ claim is speculation. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that in and of itself, but you're kind of being a hypocrite with that last line as you've yet to prove the other Kage were even _as_ bad off as Tsunade at that moment, let alone _worse off_. So I send that right back at you "_Nothing, but speculation says the other Kage were worse_".



> The kages (But Tsunade) fought Madara with no injuries. Now we know who's the weakest Kage .



Well think about it for a moment: Tsunade, as the regenerating Kage, wouldn't have as much cover as the other Kages. Why concern themselves with the injuries of someone who will almost instantaneously heal said injuries off when you have 3 other allies who actually stay injured if they get injured. Tsunade should not have been their first priority in that situation. So she got less help, getting injured as you get tired _is to be expected_.

But you can't have it both ways. When they met back up, was Tsunade more injured than the others? You were just trying to say she was better off and now you're trying to say she's the weakest because she was the worst off. Pick a side, brah. 

And Onoki could still move, yet he didn't get to before Tsunade dealt with those Katons.


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## LostSelf (Jul 24, 2013)

You're the one claiming that the Kages didn't get hit hard enough as to be injured, while Tsunade was. If that's the case, the one kicked out and injured was her and the Kages defended much better .

Let's put it this simple:

Let's make Tsunade's condition at that time as an equipable item. 

You equiped Tsunade with "Colosal, magical chest" and that gave her the condition she had when Madara fired the fireballs. That "Item" allowed her to effectively jump and punch Madara's attack

Now, if you equip that "Item" to Mei, she would've used a suiton, because the conditions or stamina this item could've given her would've allowed her to do it.

But since Mei doesn't have Colosal, magical chest, she couldn't while Tsunade did.

In other words, Mei having better condition at the time would've allowed her to attack _IF_ Tsunade with worse condition could effectively jump. But since Mei had a _worse_ condition than Tsunade's, she was not able to do it.


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## Ennoia (Jul 24, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> No she wasn't near her peak and people need to stop acting like she was. _Byakugo_ _*does not*_ remove fatigue. And given that Tsunade passed out as soon as she deflected those fireballs, I'd say she was every bit as tired as they were _if not moreso_. The other Kage were in no worse a condition than she was, and heck Ay would have been in the _best_ condition of any Kage because he has the most stamina by far, so let's not use this  "they were tired" excuse because _so was she_.



She only passed out because thats what the jutsu does to her. At no point does Tsunade show fatigue unlike here when both A and Gaara are panting. She had ample time to rest before Madara did that feat and she had full chakra, maybe i exaggerated but she was in a far better position than everyone else.

Actually I found another link, she was panting then used the jutsu and she stopped.


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## Lawrence777 (Jul 24, 2013)

Can Tsunade scramble the Raikage's movements through his Raiton no Yorai?

Doing so would enable Tsunade to land a clean strike on the disabled Raikage, ending the fight in her favor.

The reason I ask is because that scramble technique has a raiton affinity.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 24, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> You're the one claiming that the Kages didn't get hit hard enough as to be injured, while Tsunade was. If that's the case, the one kicked out and injured was her and the Kages defended much better .



You're the one claiming they were more injured than she was with no visual to back it up.

Tsunade went quicker than other Kages. Dat. Simple.



> In other words, Mei having better condition at the time would've allowed her to attack _IF_ Tsunade with worse condition could effectively jump. But since Mei had a _worse_ condition than Tsunade's, she was not able to do it.



Once again no. Tsunade being able to do something in a smaller window of time than Mei does not mean that Tsunade was in better condition and things would be different otherwise. Tsunade acting first _is not proof_ of being in the best condition.



Ennoia said:


> She only passed out because thats what the jutsu does to her. At no point does Tsunade show fatigue unlike here when both A and Gaara are panting. She had ample time to rest before Madara did that feat and she had full chakra, maybe i exaggerated but she was in a far better position than everyone else.
> 
> Actually I found another link, she was panting then used the jutsu and she stopped.



The specific jutsu had nothing to do with it. The jutsu ran out and Tsunade passed out because Tsunade used up all of her chakra, which can actually be _fatal_.

Tsunade does not need to be sucking air for us to realize she is tiring. Let's go to what Ay said "Hokage! You're fighting style's *getting* sloppy!" (1). You think Tsunade just started taking more hits for no reason, or do you think she was tiring out and becoming easier to hit? Yeah she was tiring out otherwise there would have been no change. And you're looking at Gaara and Ay _landing_, not panting.

What the mess do you mean she had full chakra? _Byakugo_ does not make Tsunade an _Edo Tensei_ which never runs out of gas, and she's been pumping out chakra like everyone else since she got there.

And I hope you realize Tsunade is panting from having lacerations everywhere. . .please use your brain.


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## Ennoia (Jul 24, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> The specific jutsu had nothing to do with it. The jutsu ran out and Tsunade passed out because Tsunade used up all of her chakra, which can actually be _fatal_.
> 
> Tsunade does not need to be sucking air for us to realize she is tiring. Let's go to what Ay said "Hokage! You're fighting style's *getting* sloppy!" (1). You think Tsunade just started taking more hits for no reason, or do you think she was tiring out and becoming easier to hit? Yeah she was tiring out otherwise there would have been no change. And you're looking at Gaara and Ay _landing_, not panting.
> 
> ...



Possibly, but all I know is what she said. Kakashi said the same thing when he used MS to block sauces arrow and was stumbling, he wasnt out of chakra.

I think she was starting to get reckless because Madara pissed her off, that dosent mean she was tired. Or she could have been purposely tanking the hits in order to end the fight faster. Dont remember seeing "haa" used as a landing, Tsunade also just landed and you can see the arrow is pointing at their faces.

When using Byakugo she does not know her limits, we found this out when it ran out on her and she didnt know it. While her chakra does have limits Byakugo boosts that limit to an insane amount. She was in a far better condition than everyone else.

Your point is irrelevant she is panting and it stopped, the same thing works here as we never see her panting ever even with massive stabs and when coughing up blood, and we know Kishi expresses tiredness with panting continually.


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## Veracity (Jul 24, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Possibly, but all I know is what she said. Kakashi said the same thing when he used MS to block sauces arrow and was stumbling, he wasnt out of chakra.
> 
> I think she was starting to get reckless because Madara pissed her off, that dosent mean she was tired. Or she could have been purposely tanking the hits in order to end the fight faster. Dont remember seeing "haa" used as a landing, Tsunade also just landed and you can see the arrow is pointing at their faces.
> 
> ...



-Or she could simply be tired? Why over explain things when you can just simplify them. Why would she be mad at Madara? Why would that change her fighting style in that specific instance? 

-And if Ay was so tired, then why was he so fast to leap of the ground in this scan:
Here

I thought he was to tired to dodge or react to Madara's Katon? I thought Ay had Bjiuu level chakra. Weird how he would tire out even before Mei.

& sorry about acting like a bitch in my first post. Wasn't a good day.


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## Ennoia (Jul 24, 2013)

Because nothing throughout the entire fight suggests that she was tired, its clear she was pissed off and she even says that is the only way she can do it. When you see A leaping, notice he does not have shroud; the most important time to use it, Gaara attempts to use sand but cannot when a few chapters ago he saved Mei from a distance away, Onoki never moves, they are tired.

The Katon was fast, Tsunade passed out in mid air which is not fast.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 24, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> I think she was starting to get reckless because Madara pissed her off, that dosent mean she was tired. Or she could have been purposely tanking the hits in order to end the fight faster. Dont remember seeing "haa" used as a landing, Tsunade also just landed and you can see the arrow is pointing at their faces.



The _Susano'o_ army portion of the fight lasted from day well into the night; why would she take so long to get reckless after Madara pissed her off? If it was because Madara pissed her off she would have been reckless the entire time and Ay wouldn't have said "getting" sloppy as if it was some new development.

Because unlike the other two, Tsunade can't fly, and can't make the same sound because she can't land light as a feather from such a height. The "arrow" is not pointing at Gaara's face by the way.

I cannot believe I'm seeing it suggested that Hachibi-level chakra Ay started to tire before Tsunade.



> When using Byakugo she does not know her limits, we found this out when it ran out on her and she didnt know it. While her chakra does have limits Byakugo boosts that limit to an insane amount. She was in a far better condition than everyone else.



Even if she can't know the _exact moment_ her chakra is going to run out I'm pretty certain she, as any ninja, would have a general idea of around what time it would happen. Maybe it ran out a minute before she thought it would, but that hardly means anything because as far as she was concerned it didn't matter because Madara was disappearing anyway; as long as she got rid of the Katon first, which she did, then she was in the clear. Trolling _Edo Tensei_'s cancellation was not part of the equation or something she could anticipate.

_Byakugo_ removes wounds, not fatigue. Chakra is synonymous with stamina, Tsunade can get tired while using _Byakugo_. For Tsunade to be in such a state that she would lose mobility as soon as she performed another action suggests that she was every bit as tired of not more tired than everyone else. Which is understandable given she had the biggest burden since she was supplying chakra handouts and healing while also fighting off her own clones when everybody else just dealt with clones. If Tsunade could remove her own fatigue it would mean she could never be exhausted, _*ever*_, and we know that _isn't_ the case.



> Your point is irrelevant she is panting and it stopped.



She is panting because of lacerations. Logically, when said lacerations are no longer there, she would not be panting anymore. It _is not because_ she refreshed her own stamina. 

When we saw Tsunade take a knee, that was also a side of _tiring out_. But wait a second, we don't see any of the other Kages desperately sucking in air either, so why you single out Tsunade as not huffing and puffing to say she isn't tired without saying the same for everyone else is something that can only be attributed to double standards is it not? Kishi expresses it continually? Well then by your logic the other Kage weren't tired either. I guess they can remove their fatigue. 

 I am really unsure if I want to continue with this topic if that's where it's going to go.


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## LostSelf (Jul 24, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> You're the one claiming they were more injured than she was with no visual to back it up.



I guess we don't have to look too deep to know that they were injured since i doubt that they fought all this time without being  hurt..



> Tsunade went quicker than other Kages. Dat. Simple.



Fell quicker you mean? Yeah, when her replenishing jutsu ran out. Before that? No.



> Once again no. Tsunade being able to do something in a smaller window of time than Mei does not mean that Tsunade was in better condition and things would be different otherwise. Tsunade acting first _is not proof_ of being in the best condition.




Of course it is.

Don't expect me to buy that Tsunade, almost passing out, jumped in front of some fireballs that were too fast for a Mei that was in better condition than her AND in close range she hit ALL of them with her amazingly fast striking speed. And then, passed out. I won't.

It's pretty clear that Byakugo had her in better conditions than the other kages. It's even clear how she begins to feel the after effects after Byakugo wore off and not before (When she jumped).


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## FlamingRain (Jul 24, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> I guess we don't have to look too deep to know that they were injured since i doubt that they fought all this time without being  hurt.



Like I said:



FlamingRain said:


> Well think about it for a moment: Tsunade, as the regenerating Kage, wouldn't have as much cover as the other Kages. Why concern themselves with the injuries of someone who will almost instantaneously heal said injuries off when you have 3 other allies who actually stay injured if they get injured. Tsunade should not have been their first priority in that situation. So she got less help, getting injured as you get tired _is to be expected_.



The rest would have had each other's backs more than Tsunade's, hence not being injured.



> Don't expect me to buy that Tsunade, almost passing out, jumped in front of some fireballs that were too fast for a Mei that was in better condition than her AND in close range she hit ALL of them with her amazingly fast striking speed. And then, passed out. I won't.



The same Tsunade, almost passing out, crossed _half of Konoha_. 

If we have to agree to disagree then we have to agree to disagree.

But I'll say it again. Tsunade dealing faster, does not necessitate Tsunade being better off than Mei. You can say Mei was tired and I can say Tsunade was too and it cancels out.


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (Jul 24, 2013)

Do you guys think Orochimaru is more durable than the Raikage or could at least take more damage? 
I'm just wondering

Cause if not, Raikage should be able to take quite a few Tsunade punches

If you believe so, then the gap in durabilty between Raikage and Orochimaru would have to be huge if you think Tsunade would be able to one-shot the Raikage

The same on who took Mabui teleportation technique w/ no side effects, shrugged off a Chidori and a Chidori blade in almost the same chapter, and showed no symptons of pain when Amaterusu engulfed his arm or when he cut it off 

And then theres the speed thing

Tsunade could probably hit the Raikage 

I just don't see it being enough to put him down

A wins mid-high difficulty


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## Ennoia (Jul 24, 2013)

We are not going to agree on this minor stuff, do you or do you not agree that Tsunade was in the best condition? Mei was punched by Susanoo, Gaara was hit by 5 Susanoo, and A was placed under a genjutsu. The fact is that none of them were shown to even be able to so much as cast a jutsu to save Tsunade when she was about to get stabbed. We can discuss how tired she was all day but the facts are there, the Kage were in no position to do anything at that point but her and its because of Byakugo; I cannot see how you can disagree with this.


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## ueharakk (Jul 24, 2013)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> Do you guys think Orochimaru is more durable than the Raikage or could at least take more damage?
> I'm just wondering
> 
> Cause if not, Raikage should be able to take quite a few Tsunade punches



If your talking about Tsunade punching Orochimaru in part 1, then that's not a good representation of current tsunade w/ byakugo activated as part 1 tsunade's hits were nothing compared to Sakura's own and would even have a hard time measuring up to some of Ei's hits.

By hype, Tsunade is at least Sakura's level in striking power which would mean her strength has been retconned since part 1, she got a lot stronger since part 1, or byakugo greatly amplifies its user's strength (what I believe).


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## FlamingRain (Jul 24, 2013)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> Do you guys think Orochimaru is more durable than the Raikage or could at least take more damage?
> I'm just wondering



I think in the face of slicing/piercing attacks Ay is harder to damage, but Orochimaru is more resistant to blunt force due to his almost elastic anatomy.

Orochimaru should be more resilient as well. I'm not sure he's actually felt real pain aside from _Shiki Fujin_ messing with his soul.

At the same time, that Tsunade was weaker than current Tsunade.



> Tsunade could probably hit the Raikage
> 
> I just don't see it being enough to put him down



Now that I'm thinking about it: If Tsunade hit him, he'd go flying even though he could survive. Could she not catch up to him in the air similar to how Sakura caught the Juubling and follow up?



Ennoia said:


> We are not going to agree on this minor stuff, do you or do you not agree that Tsunade was in the best condition? Mei was punched by Susanoo, Gaara was hit by 5 Susanoo, and A was placed under a genjutsu. The fact is that none of them were shown to even be able to so much as cast a jutsu to save Tsunade when she was about to get stabbed. We can discuss how tired she was all day but the facts are there, the Kage were in no position to do anything at that point but her and its because of Byakugo; I cannot see how you can disagree with this.



I think they were in similar condition. Mei pretty much shrugged off that punch, thanks to landing on a soft cushion of sand. Gaara did not get hit by the swords, but got senf flying by the force of the swords hitting his shield, but then landed on a soft cushion of sand. Genjutsu does no harm and Ay couldn't be as tired as Tsunade because he has much higher stamina levels. Yes they were in a position to do something (1), but Madara at that point was closer to her than the fireballs ever were to the Kage and Dan beat them there.


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## LostSelf (Jul 24, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> But I'll say it again. Tsunade dealing faster, does not necessitate Tsunade being better off than Mei. You can say Mei was tired and I can say Tsunade was too and it cancels out.



I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that Byakugo was the reason she was able to do that.

And Mei, in condition was able to counter a Katon fast enough before the Katon hit Tsunade [1] to not being able to shoot one in time. Tsunade might be faster than Mei, but there's no way she will jump that fast before a Mei, that was in better conditions than her could at least spit the suiton.

Tsunade also looks fine and surprised that Byakugo wore off. And _after_ Byakugo wore off it was when she began to pass out.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 24, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> And Mei, in condition was able to counter a Katon fast enough before the Katon hit Tsunade [1] to not being able to shoot one in time.



Going from countering what would be a slower Katon in a big smothering wave to being unable to counter what would be a quicker Katon in dragon bullets isn't saying much.


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 25, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Provide links. Every time I see something that has to do with Tsunade the feats are extremely bias.


that kind of wound can't be healed by even advanced medical ninjutsu.
that kind of wound can't be healed by even advanced medical ninjutsu.
Suigetsu and Juugo reacting. Haven't shown to be too exceptionally fast characters yet reacted to his speed. She can block and since she is stronger she can overpower him and make an opening.

that kind of wound can't be healed by even advanced medical ninjutsu.
Attacking in unison with Oonoki/A. She met them in mid air and kicked at the same speed of the chop. She moved as fast as flying Oonoki and kicked at a speed similar to V1 A. That's one hell of a feat and shows she can at the very least react to his attacks to block and can counter. Being faster than someone does not mean you can not land a hit on said person at all. Especially when you are a taijutsu user. She can tank a punch and then punch him in the opening. Not that hard to understand. Skill matters more than speed. And both are 5 tier.


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## joshhookway (Jul 25, 2013)

Will Tsunade's punches damage A, if chidori barely did anything?


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 25, 2013)

Raikage stomps.

One hit from Tsunade isn't putting Ei down, unless it is a direct shot to the skull; he possesses the speed to evade such attacks, anyway. As soon as her monstrous strength comes into play, a subsequent Shunshin/neck slash is evident.


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## Skaddix (Jul 26, 2013)

Indeed he dodged Jugo's blast at point blank range with his arm embedded in Jugo.


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## LostSelf (Jul 26, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Going from countering what would be a slower Katon in a big smothering wave to being unable to counter what would be a quicker Katon in dragon bullets isn't saying much.



Yeah, considering that there's not proof only speculating that the last Katon was much faster, to the point of Mei not reacting in time at all against a Katon shot in a much bigger distance between Madara and the target (But having time to think to herself) and to the point where Tsunade could counter this one but not evade the first.




It's not convincing at all.


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## Zetnodan (Jul 26, 2013)

*I think A wins.*

I





Likes boss said:


> Ay has only been in like 3 actual battles. I which he had a reason to activate how lighting armor.
> 
> - Against a man who he thought killed his brother. The fact that he had the strentgh to "kill" Bee is enough to activate the gates
> 
> ...



I love how A isn't allowed to put up Lightning Armor because... he doesn't feel like it or whatever? But Tsunade takes this fight so seriously that she just puches the Black off his face without any rep to back it up. She just Beats the shit out of this random stranger? If she wins with High diff that Diff would be A fighting at his best and if he does that Tsunade Loses.


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## Veracity (Jul 26, 2013)

Zetnodan said:


> I
> 
> I love how A isn't allowed to put up Lightning Armor because... he doesn't feel like it or whatever? But Tsunade takes this fight so seriously that she just puches the Black off his face without any rep to back it up. She just Beats the shit out of this random stranger? If she wins with High diff that Diff would be A fighting at his best and if he does that Tsunade Loses.



Um no? Ay isn't using RnY and Tsunade isn't using her Regen. Then she destroys his chest region with a single punch. Doesn't matter if its her strongest punch or a casual punch.
She created fissures with her single finger(casual) and tore through Sussano(strongest)

However, Base Ay has no feats to suggest that he can tank a hit that shreds though solid ground like butter.

Also have you seen Tsunade? She's a foot shorter then Ay, she looks completely innocent, and has absolutely no muscle tone. Why would Ay take her seriously?

On the other hand, have you seen Ay?


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## Grimsley (Jul 26, 2013)

tsunade wins. with katsuyu unrestricted it's a definite win.


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