# How did obito escape amaterasu?



## Sufex (Jun 30, 2019)

Amaterasu lasts until his target is completely gone.

So as long as it hits him logically that would reach the 5 minute limit and Obito would have been dead, just as it would've been the same result in the fight with Konan, i dont think kamui works after the damage has but same way i dont think kamui would help against shinra tensei if already tagged as the damage already registers. Im unsure of the flames would stick to him though, which is what this weoghs on. Itachi also had knowlege on kamui so why would he place a trap that could be so easily negged. Therefore i think obito escaped with the Izanagi.

Since he had a lot of Sharingan eyes in reserve, he could have easily replaced the eye he had just used, just as he did after fighting Konan. AND he could have implied this, by the lines (if I recall well), "Even Itachi didn't know everything about me". That he could use Izanagi, or that he has those Sharingan reserves (since Itachi never knew about the eyes collected by Tobi, or Tobi's expertise in using this rare and forbidden jutsu


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## WorldsStrongest (Jun 30, 2019)

Could have only been Kamui or Izanagi 

Fuck if I know which one tho

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Trojan (Jun 30, 2019)

Kamui as stated in the databook.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Android (Jun 30, 2019)

Kamui, as already explained in the DB.


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## hbcaptain (Jun 30, 2019)

He used Kamui as per Databook.

He phased throught it.


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## Sufex (Jun 30, 2019)

Android said:


> Kamui, as already explained in the DB.


Scan?


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jun 30, 2019)

The databook is dated. 

The explanation of Obito using Kamui to phase through something that's already attached to his body is buke. 

It doesn't make sense when we look at how Torune Abruame's micro-bugs necessitated immediate arm amputation. 

And Izanagi first surfaced after the third Book was written, so it can hardly mention that as a reason to escape, potentially spoiling an important plot point.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Grinningfox (Jun 30, 2019)

Databook 3 days he used Kamui


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## Android (Jun 30, 2019)

Sufex said:


> Scan?



From the DB

_No one has a clue as to what Tobi-Madara's powers are. Even before Akatsuki members, he never exerted them. In his rare battle happenstances, jutsu hardly leave any traces upon him. *His ability lets attacks fail to connect without exception, keeps his body unscathed after Itachi's Amaterasu, and apparently transcends space so he can vanish into thin ai*r. And here is the biggest question of all: why is Madara alive? Contemporary to Konoha's creation, the man supposed to have died at the Valley of the End lives to this day, his appearance unchanged. The jutsu that kept Madara alive, deceiving even Hashirama, the First Hokage, is known to Madara and him alone..._


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## hbcaptain (Jun 30, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> The explanation of Obito using Kamui to phase through something that's already attached to his body is buke.


Amaterasu isn't attached to his body.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jun 30, 2019)

Android said:


> From the DB
> 
> _No one has a clue as to what Tobi-Madara's powers are. Even before Akatsuki members, he never exerted them. In his rare battle happenstances, jutsu hardly leave any traces upon him. *His ability lets attacks fail to connect without exception, keeps his body unscathed after Itachi's Amaterasu, and apparently transcends space so he can vanish into thin ai*r. And here is the biggest question of all: why is Madara alive? Contemporary to Konoha's creation, the man supposed to have died at the Valley of the End lives to this day, his appearance unchanged. The jutsu that kept Madara alive, deceiving even Hashirama, the First Hokage, is known to Madara and him alone..._


 Well I guess this thread is essentially done

Reactions: Like 1


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## nobody (Jun 30, 2019)

Plot no jutsu.


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## Bonly (Jun 30, 2019)

DB gives that benefit to Kamui


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jun 30, 2019)

DB III also reffers to Tobi as Madara...


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## BlackHeartedImp (Jun 30, 2019)

I thought it was pretty obvious that it was Kamui. Izanagi hadn't been introduced yet and Obito's ability to slip through objects and teleport was well known at that point.

Keep in mind that he was crushed by a boulder and dying the very first time he used it. Things being in physical contact with him before he activates it doesn't stop him from slipping through them if he's still alive. Amaterasu doesn't insta-kill so he likely just slipped through.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jun 30, 2019)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> Keep in mind that he was crushed by a boulder and dying the very first time he used it.



Umm.... what ? 

I'm pretty sure this doesn't happen. 

He awakens the mangekyou _after _watching Rins death. Long after Madara has salvaged his broken body.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 30, 2019)

Standard plot nerf is all


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## Hi no Ishi (Jun 30, 2019)

He used Kamui to drop it off in Boxland and came back.

Reactions: Like 1


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## BlackHeartedImp (Jun 30, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Umm.... what ?
> 
> I'm pretty sure this doesn't happen.
> 
> He awakens the mangekyou _after _watching Rins death. Long after Madara has salvaged his broken body.


I remember reading him slipping through the rocks for some reason  my memory has betrayed me again, I suppose. Thanks for the correction.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 30, 2019)

He warped it away to boxland. 

I don't think he phased throught it, since it had landed on him already and the Amaterasu would have fallen through the floor and spread in the cave.

Kamui users have been shown to be able to specifically target their body/clothing when warping an object so that it is not affected by the warp.


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## MaruUchiha (Jun 30, 2019)

Obito would've just laughed it off and absorbed it right there if it was Kamui, not stumbled back into the dark screaming, Itachi knew Amaterasu would kill him while he's solidified.. Plus he came back with his clothes not damaged at all. Izanagi is the only right answer


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## Android (Jun 30, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Obito would've just laughed it off and absorbed it right there if it was Kamui, not stumbled back into the dark screaming, Itachi knew Amaterasu would kill him while he's solidified.. Plus he came back with his clothes not damaged at all. Izanagi is the only right answer


So you are just going to ignore the DB ?


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## MaruUchiha (Jun 30, 2019)

Android said:


> So you are just going to ignore the DB ?


And what did the not-canon databook say about this? (Not that i really care or take the databook all that serious)


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 30, 2019)

He took his shirt off. Like madara.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Android (Jun 30, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> And what did the not-canon databook say about this? (Not that i really care or take the databook all that serious)


Sure, your interpretation holds more weight than the DB 

Anyway, here you go:

_No one has a clue as to what Tobi-Madara's powers are. Even before Akatsuki members, he never exerted them. In his rare battle happenstances, jutsu hardly leave any traces upon him. *His ability lets attacks fail to connect without exception, keeps his body unscathed after Itachi's Amaterasu, and apparently transcends space so he can vanish into thin ai*r. And here is the biggest question of all: why is Madara alive? Contemporary to Konoha's creation, the man supposed to have died at the Valley of the End lives to this day, his appearance unchanged. The jutsu that kept Madara alive, deceiving even Hashirama, the First Hokage, is known to Madara and him alone..._


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jun 30, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> He took his shirt off. Like madara.



But his shirt was still on when he came back.



Unless... there's a wardrobe in boxland ??


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## Trojan (Jun 30, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Obito would've just laughed it off and absorbed it right there if it was Kamui, not stumbled back into the dark screaming, Itachi knew Amaterasu would kill him while he's solidified.. Plus he came back with his clothes not damaged at all. Izanagi is the only right answer


clearly, you don't know how Izanagi works.  

Izanagi needs to be activated BEFORE he is being hit, not after. Otherwise, why didn't Obito get his arm back after he used
Izanagi against Konan?


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## Dr. White (Jun 30, 2019)

Who knows with Kishi writing, but the DB argument takes priority. Doesn't make sense mechanically though. Obito's own words also suggest izanagi "I'd be dead if I hadn't kept a few secrets from Itachi". Itachi knew about Kamui given he scouted Obito and obito used kamui to infiltrate the old uchiha grounds. So izanagi would be something in his arsenal Itachi wouldn't be aware of.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Dr. White (Jun 30, 2019)

Hussain said:


> clearly, you don't know how Izanagi works.
> 
> Izanagi needs to be activated BEFORE he is being hit, not after. Otherwise, why didn't Obito get his arm back after he used
> Izanagi against Konan?


No...? Danzo was blitzed many times over and activated Izanagi after...that's the whole shitck of Izanagi. Obito was injured because of the time length cap on Izanagi vs the time of paper ocean. 

Madara literally programmed Izanagi to activate after his death lmao.


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## MaruUchiha (Jun 30, 2019)

Android said:


> _*His ability lets attacks fail to connect without exception, keeps his body unscathed after Itachi's Amaterasu, and apparently transcends space so he can vanish into thin ai*r_


You're just proving how full of shit the databook is.. Are they seriously trying to claim AMaterasu didn't touch his body?


Hussain said:


> Izanagi needs to be activated BEFORE he is being hit, not after. Otherwise, why didn't Obito get his arm back after he used
> Izanagi against Konan?


Because.. He didn't need his arm back or something? Idk. But why else would Obito reappear with his clothes undamaged? It had to be Izanagi

Reactions: Like 1


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## A Optimistic (Jun 30, 2019)

It's Izanagi.

Itachi already knew about Kamui since he caught Obito sneaking into the Uchiha hideout. So Itachi came up with a plan to get around Kamui. Then Obito said he only survived because he kept a secret from Itachi, aka Izanagi. And finally, Shino already demonstrated what happens when an attack touches Obito and he uses Kamui right after. That didn't happen this time so how can it be Kamui?

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Trojan (Jun 30, 2019)

Dr. White said:


> No...? Danzo was blitzed many times over and activated Izanagi after...that's the whole shitck of Izanagi. Obito was injured because of the time length cap on Izanagi vs the time of paper ocean.
> 
> Madara literally programmed Izanagi to activate after his death lmao.


Can you post an example of Danzo getting blitzed before activating Izanagi?


- Yes, Asspulldara prepared that BEFORE his battle with Hashirama, not after he was "killed"


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## Dr. White (Jun 30, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Can you post an example of Danzo getting blitzed before activating Izanagi?
> 
> 
> - Yes, Asspulldara prepared that BEFORE his battle with Hashirama, not after he was "killed"


Yes...Izanagi is activated while being damaged...As the user is making . You don't activate it prior, or else you would be making the moments prior an illusion and thus still taking the damage.

Madara pre programmed it prior so that he would be able to be buried and thus escape detection, but the jutsu still *activated* after his death.

Thus your argument is invalid, and Obito would have obviously used Izanagi to erase amaterasu when struck. Similar to Danzo doing it when being pierced by the arrow. 

1+1= 2 and all that jazz.


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## Android (Jun 30, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> You're just proving how full of shit the databook is.. Are they seriously trying to claim AMaterasu didn't touch his body?




No, it refers to his ability has a whole. Kamui makes him unable to be touched by the attacks, but it also lets them slip through him when activated. Obito wasn't even in ghost mode when Amaterasu hit him.

No, for you to claim that the DB is full of scrap you have you to back up your claims with a more valid source.

Your interpretation isn't one.



MaruUchiha said:


> Because.. He didn't need his arm back or something?


Garbage ass response. Stop using the clothes argument, we fucking saw characters get caught in explosions and not get their clothings burn. 

Or it could be an art error, which are a recurring theme in this manga.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tri (Jun 30, 2019)

He used Kamui.


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## Alita (Jun 30, 2019)

kamui


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 30, 2019)

*Izanagi*​
*Why not Kamui?* 
He _could_ have warped it using Kamui, theoretically speaking, but this is an unlikely event on that specific occasion, for several reasons:

Itachi planned this in spite of being aware of Kamui. Meaning that genius himself expected Kamui to not be able to evade it. Even Tobi noted how even Itachi didn't know all his secrets, that he would have died otherwise.
Secondly, Tobi was in a lot of pain almost immediately (as proven by shrieking, being forced back, saying he would have been killed, letting his mask fall off his hand), suggesting difficulty in creating an accurate barrier space with such erratic and painful flames.
He still had his clothes on and looked just fine. To think this was an art error is very strange to me, since Kishimoto was very focused on clothes in this chapter (and because we know what the alternative, Izanagi, can accomplish).
Warping in the flames, theoretically speaking, would involve warping the surface of his clothes/skin in contact with the fire, because A) the flames were already spreading very fast and B) his shrieking and intense pain proves that the fire had burned through his clothing (his attire, bar the mask, has no special durability I'm aware of). 
Phasing would have meant the flames passing through him; that did not happen.
*Why Izanagi?* 

Tobi (Obito Uchiha) had sufficient time to mentally note what was happening (). Amaterasu made contact on his . 
As his mask drops from his hand, the fire and he is forced back into the shadows with his head sharply facing downwards as he shrieks in agony ().
We get a fully body of him appearing completely . Clearly Kishimoto knew what he was doing; this was not an error of the art. 
Tobi explains that he's alive because Itachi didn't know everything about him (). Tobi shows authority here as he clearly understands what exactly Itachi did even after evading damage. It is true that Sasuke used Amaterasu, but it is also true, as far as I am establishing, that Tobi manipulated his reality - the Amaterasu inflicted upon _him_ simply _became_ an illusion to reality. 
From Danzo's usage of Izanagi, it's clear he uses Izanagi just before he would get hurt (as Karin explained, and as we see him with his hand sign weaved). Even though he _appeared_ to get fatally stabbed, he was in fact just fine in terms of physical damage (). 
We now discover why Itachi was unaware of Izanagi ().
Tobi explains how the Izanagi, for a certain period of time, can rewrite anything disadvantageous to the user, such as damage or even death, as a dream (). Tobi also clearly demonstrates a sound understanding of the number of eyes and the effect of using multiple eyes for Izanagi () and asserts a notion of time. From existing knowledge, we know that Tobi had a reserve of Uchiha eyes. 
The reason Tobi was able to extend his illusion via time-delay was because of his Senju cells and Uchiha lineage (); he was effectively a Sage of the Six Paths and was truly able to control Hashirama's power (). 
When Madara Uchiha used Izanagi to survive, he invoked a time-delay mechanism with Izanagi on his right eye; his death _became_ a dream and he _rewrote _his coming back to life as his reality (). 


*Spoiler*: _Scans_ 




397.2-3

397.3

397.4

397.4-5

397.12

397.10-11

478.14-15

478.16-17

479.2-3

479.4-5

510.10-11

510.12-13

681.12-13





When things like this happen, and we have all the information at hand by the end of the series, it is _*not* _open to interpretation. Initially, readers naturally thought either that Tobi used Izanagi or Kamui (or something else). If we assume Izanagi and short-range Kamui to be the only reasonable possibilities, and trust that no mistakes were made in the evidence itself (i.e. no significant art errors, for example), then it can be *proved*, via logic and deductive reasoning, that short-range Kamui was _not _used, thereby _*proving*_ it had to be Izanagi (as that's the _*only*_ option left). The evidence for Izanagi, however, is of utmost strength, so it's not like it's some kind of far-fetched notion in any event.

Simply put, the proof that short-range Kamui was not used is Tobi remaining unscathed - thus, Izanagi, the only other possibility, no matter how improbable (and actually it's very probable), must be the truth.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


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## Trojan (Jun 30, 2019)

Izanagi most likely did not even exist back then...

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Kai (Jun 30, 2019)

A Optimistic said:


> It's Izanagi.
> 
> Itachi already knew about Kamui since he caught Obito sneaking into the Uchiha hideout. So Itachi came up with a plan to get around Kamui. Then Obito said he only survived because he kept a secret from Itachi, aka Izanagi. And finally, Shino already demonstrated what happens when an attack touches Obito and he uses Kamui right after. That didn't happen this time so how can it be Kamui?


Kamui has different applications that Kakashi thought it was different techniques at play - that is, until he tested it and recognized everything was one jutsu.

Itachi understands Tobi being able to slip through physical objects. He doesn’t know about people or objects being sent to another dimension.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 30, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Izanagi most likely did not even exist back then...


1. I proved it wasn't short-range Kamui or phasing. So what do you think Tobi was referring to?
2. Kishimoto proved it existed in the in-verse past (by flashback to Madara). He even gave it an extra detail during Konan's fight, tying it all the way to Six Paths. Tobi also noted that thanks to Itachi not knowing everything about him, he lived. He also explained it as a technique unknown even among the Uchiha in Danzo's fight. Konan and Zetsu knew some things about Kamui, so I wouldn't be surprised if Uchiha Itachi knew his fair share (as alluded to by Tobi). 



Kai said:


> Kamui has different applications that Kakashi thought it was different techniques at play - that is, until he tested it and recognized everything was one jutsu.
> 
> Itachi understands Tobi being able to slip through physical objects. He doesn’t know about people or objects being sent to another dimension.


While you're right, I believe regardless of Itachi's knowledge on it, he still hoped for some kind of surprise attack. Konan knew Tobi had to materialise to attack, I wouldn't put it past Uchiha Itachi to know at least that much.


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## Trojan (Jun 30, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> 1. I proved it wasn't short-range Kamui or phasing. So what do you think Tobi was referring to?
> 2. Kishimoto proved it existed in the in-verse past (by flashback to Madara). He even gave it an extra detail during Konan's fight, tying it all the way to Six Paths. Tobi also noted that thanks to Itachi not knowing everything about him, he lived. He also explained it as a technique unknown even among the Uchiha in Danzo's fight. Konan and Zetsu knew some things about Kamui, so I wouldn't be surprised if Uchiha Itachi knew his fair share (as alluded to by Tobi).


you did not prove anything really. 
something does not make sense to you, does not mean it's not the case. We do have direct proof that it's Kamui. 

2- lol, no. Kishi adding something in a flashback years later, does not mean he had it in mind at the time IRL. 
otherwise, he wouldn't have fucked up everything and contradicted himself numerous times.

Heck, even AFTER he actually showed Izanagi in the manga, it's fairly obvious that he did not even know how he wanted it to be.
Seeing how originally to use Izanagi you must have both Uchiha & Senju power.

Just for him to bring excuses out of his ass for itachi to have Izanami which convincedly was perfectly made for Kabuto.
and has Asspulldara preparing Izanagi even before he got Hashi's cells implemented in him.


Much less thinking he has Izanagi and how it works planned several years before it appeared in the manga 



Furthermore, itachi does actually know about Izanagi, it's Kamui that he does not know about...


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 30, 2019)

Hussain said:


> you did not prove anything really.
> something does not make sense to you, does not mean it's not the case. We do have direct proof that it's Kamui.
> 
> 2- lol, no. Kishi adding something in a flashback years later, does not mean he had it in mind at the time IRL.
> ...


1. You haven't proved I didn't prove it wasn't short-range Kamui. 
2. You're saying he didn't have it at the time because Kishimoto didn't think of it then, but you didn't prove how it was Kamui or something else, as opposed to it being Izanagi. 
3. You've given no specific examples of things Kishimoto would have messed up if he did have Izanagi in mind at the time of Tobi surviving Amaterasu. 
4. You've referred to Izanami but that is not what we're discussing. 
5. It's not that short-range Kamui doesn't make sense _to me_, it's that objective it would contradict hand-drawn facts. I explained these facts in my post. Feel free to rebut the points made in post.


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## Trojan (Jun 30, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> 1. You haven't proved I didn't prove it wasn't short-range Kamui.


I did. The databook flat-out says it is. 
and all I am seeing in your post "it's UCHIHA ITACHI" 



Mad Scientist said:


> 2. You're saying he didn't have it at the time because Kishimoto didn't think of it then, but you didn't prove how it was Kamui or something else, as opposed to it being Izanagi.


I did.
1- We are told it's Kamui
2- Izanagi must works BEFORE the opponent is being attacked, NOT after. 



Mad Scientist said:


> 3. You've given no specific examples of things Kishimoto would have messed up if he did have Izanagi in mind at the time of Tobi surviving Amaterasu.


I did.
1- Izanagi. Originally needed both Uchiha & Senju power, then it did not.
2- Hagu. Originally was the one who fought the Juubi on his own, then he added Hamura to serve for a parallel to Sasuke.
3- Water-style. Originally you couldn't use it without water source besides someone on Tobirama's level, in part 2 everyone and their mothers can. 

those are 3 examples, no need to list a million one.  




Mad Scientist said:


> 4. You've referred to Izanami but that is not what we're discussing.


it's directly related. As I told you, Izanagi was originally only usable for those who have Uchiha & Senju power.
However, in order for Kishi to asspull Izanami for itachi, he retconned Izanagi so now every fodder uchiha was using it, and they
were "abusing it", which resulted in Izanami to be created.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 30, 2019)

Hussain said:


> I did. The databook flat-out says it is.


You've stated that the DB flat-out says it. 

Where?


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## Kai (Jun 30, 2019)

Top caption: “Tobi’s body disappears into nothing. Is this also one of Madara’s abilities?”

The databook treating Kamui like different techniques are being done yet it’s all just one jutsu which is the Kamui.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 30, 2019)

Kai said:


> Top caption: “Tobi’s body disappears into nothing. Is this also one of Madara’s abilities?”
> 
> The databook treating Kamui like different techniques are being done yet it’s all just one jutsu which is the Kamui.


I disagree. Above all else, "No one knows the extent of Madara's true powers.", the first line in that sub-section, takes precedence. Third DB covers 245 to 402 (appearing unscathed by Amaterasu occurred in 397). This DB page is all about powers we don't know much about. When you look back on just how much Tobi knew about Izanagi, everything starts to make sense. Besides, nowhere here do I see a flat-out statement that Kamui was used, seems to be more about how little we know of his powers.



Hussain said:


> 2- Izanagi must works BEFORE the opponent is being attacked, NOT after.


Nothing in what I said contradicts this.


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## Speedyamell (Jun 30, 2019)

The DB does imply it's kamui. It leaves room for doubt though.. and the way I see it, it's explaining tobi's powers based on how inverse characters saw it at the time.. not exactly how it actually is. It even describes obito as if he were actually madara. Clearly showing that the DB was more or less reiterating what was generally believed inverse rather than pure fact.
Although there's nothing illogical about it being kamui...
obito can warp people and objects by simply initiating contact with them.. he could have easily just warped the flames away.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 30, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> Although there's nothing illogical about it being kamui...
> obito can warp people and objects by simply initiating contact with them.. he could have easily just warped the flames away.


Answer honestly.

Did you read my ?



Speedyamell said:


> The DB does imply it's kamui. It leaves room for doubt though.. and the way I see it, it's explaining tobi's powers based on how inverse characters saw it at the time.. not exactly how it actually is. It even describes obito as if he were actually madara. Clearly showing that the DB was more or less reiterating what was generally believed inverse rather than pure fact.


I do like this. However, it leaves room for _a lot_ of doubt and curiosity.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 30, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> But his shirt was still on when he came back.
> 
> 
> 
> Unless... there's a wardrobe in boxland ??


Who.. Knows..
Dude had spare sharingan... Wouldn't be far-fetched if he some shirt in a closet.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 1, 2019)

Anyone who'd argue Kamui would be factually retarded or straight up autistic. The baffling idioy on such threads are what it is.



Sage light said:


> The Databook entry posted here factually miscontrues the context, and it's original implication. The Viz translation has it as_ "his body unscathed by Amaterasu"_ and not the_ "keeps"_.
> 
> Even if we're going by the unofficial excerpt, the "," gives away the _generality_ of the excerpt, not _specifically_ extrapolating on _Kamui_ alone.
> 
> ...

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Azula (Jul 1, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*




Pretty clear it was Kamui, same situation as Kakashi and Rasengan.

Izanagi is also not a secret, it's a famous jutsu and Itachi would be familiar with it, same as Izanami.


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## Quipchaque (Jul 1, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> DB III also reffers to Tobi as Madara...



I mean he is Madara at that point. And the databook won't use spoilers to tell us otherwise cause it is only supposed to rehash plot points instead of solving them so obviously it won't say "well aaactually you know this is Obito" .

On topic: I think it was Kamui because at this point his power is supposed to get hyped instead of showing him pull out desperate last ditch efforts so I believe we are meant to attribute this to his Kamui.


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## dergeist (Jul 1, 2019)

He used Kamui until they nerfed it. 

Original Kamui allows him to get rid of attacks like Amaterasu that hit him. Nerfed Kamui only allows him to phase or send away body parts to the other dimension. If Obito sent a body part to the other dimension to get rid of Amaterasu it would still be burning and we know he had his body intact. That means there was a time where he could send jutsu there while keeping his body parts intact.


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## Uchiha Maddy (Feb 20, 2021)

Kamuy. Why would he sacrifice a sharingan just to evade some fodder amaterasu?  make no sense


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## Mad Scientist (Feb 20, 2021)

I was afraid my 2019 posts would be embarrassing, but why were there 16 votes for Kamui again?

Man's clothes were just fine despite screaming in agony. Ergo, Izanagi. Can't believe this was a contentious topic. The amount of headcanon it would take for it to be Kamui... "Thankfully, Itachi didn't know everything about me" pretty much sums it up...

Reactions: Funny 1 | Neutral 2


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## hbcaptain (Feb 20, 2021)

DB3


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## dabi (Feb 20, 2021)

Of course he used Kamui. He isn't Danzo, where he uses Izanagi to escape fodder jutsus like amaterasu


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## BlackMantle (Feb 20, 2021)

omg there are still ignorant people here

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 20, 2021)

Has already been answered by the author himself

Reactions: Kage 4


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## BlackMantle (Feb 20, 2021)

Artistwannabe said:


> Has already been answered by the author himself


at that time, Izanagi hadn't yet been introduced and of course he wouldn't spoil about it, use your brain omg. Everything about Kamui and Izanagi has been explained in detail further in the story, and it's not hard to add 2 + 2. You can also remember how Sasuke, after attacking Obito and roughly understanding how his Kamui works, was going to use Amaterasu on him and that explains why he was kept away from the battlefield for so long

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 20, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


> at that time, Izanagi hadn't yet been introduced and of course he wouldn't spoil about it, have your brain omg. Everything about Kamui and Izanagi has been explained in detail further in the story, and it's not hard to add 2 + 2. You can also remember how Sasuke, after attacking Obito and roughly understanding how his Kamui works, was going to use Amaterasu on him and that explains why he was kept away from the battlefield for so long


This doesn't even remotely matter, if you have actual proof that it's Izanagi then feel free to show me the scan. Obito could have easily wrapped the flames away


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## Illusory (Feb 20, 2021)

I believe he detached the White Zetsu portion that was burned and replaced it with stock White Zetsu via Kamui, similar to what he did against Torrune when Torrune’s bugs wrecked Obito’s arm.

The reason Obito said he would have died if he didn’t keep secrets from Itachi is not purely because of phasing, which Obito never seemed to keep secret, but because of the replaceable nature of his body in conjunction with the S/T-swap.

It’s also the only thing that makes sense, because Itachi later says that Izanagi isn’t very rare for Uchiha to use, plus logically if Amaterasu sticks before Izanagi then it should stay stuck. So I don’t think Izanagi makes sense either.

The movie story Kishi wrote also suggests that Amaterasu can’t just be brushed off by Kamui. So overall, I’m pretty sure it was the White Zetsu body S/T swapping that is being referred to there.


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 20, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


> read my and Mad Scientist comments


I've read them all, I am yet to be convinced. What @Illusory said is actually more feasible then what you guys are proposing. Remember that Izanagi has to be activated before the damage for it to not stick too.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Tsukuyomi (Feb 20, 2021)

Illusory said:


> I believe he detached the White Zetsu portion that was burned and replaced it with stock White Zetsu via Kamui, similar to what he did against Torrune when Torrune’s bugs wrecked Obito’s arm.
> 
> The reason Obito said he would have died if he didn’t keep secrets from Itachi is not purely because of phasing, which Obito never seemed to keep secret, but because of the replaceable nature of his body in conjunction with the S/T-swap.
> 
> ...


This actually seems feasible.


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 20, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


> I've never met dumber people who refer to dumb databooks without using brain. Okay, Obito is Madara, no one in Akatsuki knew about Kamui (especially Konan, Nagato, Itachi and black zetsu) and of course he used Kamui, which he couldn't possibly use or replaced his whole body with Hashirama cells via Kamui  I'd rather not waste my time on this forum


Instead of crying about how people are "dumb" you should start lining up your arguments and proof of how you're right. The Databooks are an official source written by the author himself so good luck trying to discredit his words lol.
Now I suppose you will start brining up those funny hyperbole statements, but you have to be really stupid to actually take them in a literal sense. If he used Izanagi he had to activate it before anything happened to his body, because Izanagi prevents damage only during it's duration, not before.
Remember that when Obito used Izanagi against Konan he still retained his previous damage from the battle against her, stop being obtuse please.

Reactions: Like 3 | Dislike 1


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 20, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


> How dumb you are omfg, you don't even know how Izanagi works and trying to prove something to me?  Have you even seen Itachi's explanation of Izanagi in fight against Kabuto?


I don't have to watch anything, I've already read the manga. You still have no argument against what I said, Izanagi reverses damage only during it's duration, if you die before you manage to cast Izanagi you die. That's why Obito still had his damage that he retained against Konan before using it, stop being obtuse. For a person who calls others retards you sure aren't any better yourself honey.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 20, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


>


So you don't have anything to say? Concession accepted.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 20, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


> What a shame, you should at least not embarrass yourself, fucking troll


How am I a troll? You haven't posed a single argument to support your point so far, instead of disliking and all that I want you to sit me down and prove me wrong. It seems that you can't do that so I will accept that as a concession, simple as that.


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## Zembie (Feb 20, 2021)

Kamui as per DB

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 20, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


> if you are not a dumb troll, then at least just watch the video without excuses and admit that you are wrong


I don't need to watch it, I've already read the entire manga. The part that you're showing me is anime *FILLER* so your argument is even worse.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 20, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


> well, as required to prove (and this episode is not a filler, so your troll lies didn't pass here either)


You haven't proved anything sweetheart. and most of the episode is actually filler. Show me the manga scans, not anime episodes.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 20, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


>


Show me the manga scans to support your point, I am waiting.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 20, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


> It's better to just ignore the trolls


So you have nothing to say? No manga scans to support your points? No counter-argument to mine?
Concession accepted.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Dislike 1


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## JayK (Feb 20, 2021)

It was clearly Kamui.

Ironically enough, the follow up panels are also the ones used to misinterpret Obito's rank compared to Itachi.  I guess people just don't like accepting that Obito's statement was in response to the Amaterasu trap Itachi set in Sauce's eyes.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Tsukuyomi (Feb 20, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


> It's better to just ignore the trolls


As @JayK  would eloquently put it.
You are an eggplant


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## Tsukuyomi (Feb 20, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


> That's the dumbest troll I've ever met


That is very ironic coming from a failed dupe who can't argue for shit

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 20, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


> Ok, anime doesn't count, I understand the position of the dumb trolls on this forum


It doesn't factually count, as it's filler sweetheart. I.E it's not written by Kishimoto himself. Are you gonna tell me Naruto actually fought some stupid ninja ostrich?

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Tsukuyomi (Feb 20, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


> Ok, anime doesn't count, I understand the position of the dumb trolls on this forum


It seems like someone doesn't know what filler is

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Tsukuyomi (Feb 20, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


> As I said before, I haven't met the dumber people on the forums yet


No one asked.

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 20, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


> As I said before, I haven't met the dumber people on the forums yet


If you don't like it, leave. Nobody's forcing you to stay.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Tsukuyomi (Feb 20, 2021)

It seems we got a new Bob on this forum  
@Soldierofficial


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## Tsukuyomi (Feb 20, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


> make your own convenient guesses  I think u just brain dead trolling obitards


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 20, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


> I'm just laughing, thank you for paying so much attention to me, dumb trolls


It takes me a second to respond, you haven't really done anything amazing,

Reactions: Like 1


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 20, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


> I just find it funny that I am 100% right in this situation, and you are trying to invent excuses for yourself   I have seen this more than once and its always funny


Cringe

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 20, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


> Believe me, you are much more cringy in my point of view


Well, your point of view is clearly wrong and misinformed so I don't really care

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 20, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


>


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## Soldierofficial (Feb 20, 2021)

Code said:


> It seems we got a new Bob on this forum
> @Soldierofficial



Maybe this is his dupe

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Siskebabas (Feb 20, 2021)

Not again Maru with his dupes

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4 | Funny 1


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## Soldierofficial (Feb 20, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


> you didn't dislike all of my posts, you're not trying hard enough



I've already done it, enjoy those 26 dislikes


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## Mad Scientist (Feb 20, 2021)

Artistwannabe said:


> Instead of crying about how people are "dumb" you should start lining up your arguments and proof of how you're right.


@BlackMantle I have to agree with @Artistwannabe here. Don't get me wrong, I feel your sentiment, but currently @Illusory is on an anti-Itachi parade for a year (due to losing a bet) so you can take his words with a pinch of salt, and the scan in the databook fails to prove it was due to Kamui; it just mentions remaining unscathed from Amaterasu was one of Obito's powers without concretely referring to the methodology, which I agree with you is obviously credited to Izanagi in hindsight.

Specifically...
- Deflecting all attacks → Kamui (warping)
- Remaining unscathed after Amaterasu → Izanagi
- Vanishing through the air → Kamui (phasing)


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## Soldierofficial (Feb 20, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


> thx


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## Sloan (Feb 20, 2021)

Super Dupe

Reactions: Funny 3


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## BlackMantle (Feb 20, 2021)

Mad Scientist said:


> @BlackMantle I have to agree with @Artistwannabe here. Don't get me wrong, I feel your sentiment, but currently @Illusory is on an anti-Itachi parade for a year (due to losing a bet) so you can take his words with a pinch of salt, and the scan in the databook fails to prove it was due to Kamui; it just mentions remaining unscathed from Amaterasu was one of Obito's powers without concretely referring to the methodology, which I agree with you is obviously credited to Izanagi in hindsight.
> 
> Specifically...
> - Deflecting all attacks → Kamui (warping)
> ...


I'm just enjoying the moment on the dumbest forum I've ever met, I've already stopped being serious so don't bother with it

Reactions: Lewd 1 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Feb 20, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


> I've never met dumber people who refer to dumb databooks without using brain. Okay, Obito is Madara, no one in Akatsuki knew about Kamui (especially Konan, Nagato, Itachi and black zetsu) and of course he used Kamui, which he couldn't possibly use or replaced his whole body with Hashirama cells via Kamui * I'd rather not waste my time on this forum*


Good idea, we don't need anymore posters who act like this here.


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## Sloan (Feb 20, 2021)

The Mods after they slay their thousandth Dupe:

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 20, 2021)

Um...Maru?


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## Quipchaque (Feb 20, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


> ofc it was Izanagi, idk how not everyone still knows about it



Because Izanagi was not part of the story at that point. "Madara" 's invincibility was always connected to his Kamui portrayal. Besides Obito said "if Itachi knew my secrets I would be dead now".. Sounds more like a Kamui Moment tbh because Izanagi works as a game Changer that is almost impossible to Bypass. Kamui on the other Hand has a Ton of weaknesses.


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## Quipchaque (Feb 20, 2021)

Mad Scientist said:


> I was afraid my 2019 posts would be embarrassing, but why were there 16 votes for Kamui again?
> 
> Man's clothes were just fine despite screaming in agony. Ergo, Izanagi. Can't believe this was a contentious topic. The amount of headcanon it would take for it to be Kamui... "Thankfully, Itachi didn't know everything about me" pretty much sums it up...



I doubt Kishimoto cares about the clothes in that scene lol. Especially since Kamui was still an unsolved mystery, meaning he needed to make it as random as possible. Heck for all we know even Kishimoto Himself did not have any concrete ideas how to make the ability look like for Obito yet.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## T-Bag (Feb 21, 2021)

Logically Izanagi makes more sense considering it was a secret that even Konan, who kept his eye on him wasn’t aware of and came out completely unscathed, but if the databook suggests it was kamui then it is what it is. Kishi probably wasnt sure himself about the mechanics of kamui. Now that we know how kamui works, shino’s buggs should have followed him since they were attached to his body.

itachi had fought along side “madara” during the uchiha massacre, you’d expect him to at least know about kamui considering it was his signature ability and not so much a secret.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2 | Optimistic 1


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## T-Bag (Feb 21, 2021)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> I doubt Kishimoto cares about the clothes in that scene lol. Especially since Kamui was still an unsolved mystery,meaning he needed to make it as random as possible. Heck for all we know even Kishimoto Himself did not have any concrete ideas how to make the ability look like for Obito yet.


Excellent post, yep


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## Final Fantasy (Feb 21, 2021)

JayK said:


> Ironically enough, the follow up panels are also the ones used to misinterpret Obito's rank compared to Itachi. I guess people just don't like accepting that Obito's statement was in response to the Amaterasu trap Itachi set in Sauce's eyes.


Obito's statement being in reference to the Amaterasu trap wouldn't make sense if he used kamui


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 21, 2021)

T-Bag said:


> Logically Izanagi makes more sense considering it was a secret that even Konan, who kept his eye on him wasn’t aware of and came out completely unscathed, but if the databook suggests it was kamui then it is what it is



Or maybe the Databook is wrong (or unhelpful) again...?


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## T-Bag (Feb 21, 2021)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Or maybe the Databook is wrong (or unhelpful) again...?


I wouldnt say that because sasuke did in fact defeat the tsukuyomi/Mangekyo sharingan. The jutsu didnt beat itself. While it’s true itachi could have killed him maybe at any time, the statement about sasuke beating the tsukuyomi is legit.

and as far as the kamui/ama argument goes that was likely kishi’s idea since it was still a mystery. So we have to go with the db.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## BlueMeteor (Feb 21, 2021)

Chopped off white Zetsu arm and grew a new one in 2 seconds is what I’m going with.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 21, 2021)

T-Bag said:


> I wouldnt say that because sasuke did in fact defeat the tsukuyomi/Mangekyo sharingan. The jutsu didnt beat itself. While it’s true itachi could have killed him maybe at any time, the statement about sasuke beating the tsukuyomi is legit.
> 
> and as far as the kamui/ama argument goes that was likely kishi’s idea since it was still a mystery. So we have to go with the db.



A) Yeah, like he defeated Itachi.

B) Nope. The DB is even actually vague here - one can argue that cannot be ignored.


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## T-Bag (Feb 21, 2021)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> A) Yeah, like he defeated Itachi.
> 
> B) Nope. The DB is even actually vague here - one can argue that cannot be ignored.


He _did _defeat itachi. Whether itachi let him or whatever doesn't matter lol.

Well it's vague because like I said the jutsu was still a mystery _at the time_ but it clearly indicates it's kamui. Does that make sense today? No. But at the time it did, we were led to believe so (just like in the manga)

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 21, 2021)

T-Bag said:


> He _did _defeat itachi. Whether itachi let him or whatever doesn't matter lol



Ah, cool. Thank you for clarifying.

Hebi > Itachi after all


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## T-Bag (Feb 21, 2021)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Ah, cool. Thank you for clarifying.
> 
> Hebi > Itachi after all


no....I said he defeated itachi, not that he > itachi.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 21, 2021)

T-Bag said:


> no....I said he defeated itachi, not that he > itachi.



Yeah, he defeated Itachi fairly, therefore he > Itachi.

According to your logic, not mine.


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## T-Bag (Feb 21, 2021)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yeah, he defeated Itachi fairly, therefore he > Itachi.
> 
> According to your logic, not mine.


what? no. I admitted itachi let him win, that's not up to debate lol. I was pointing out the databook is technically right that sasuke defeated itachi because that's what happened in the manga, is it not?


BlackMantle said:


> "Logically" - exactly. There are finally some smart people here, because I'm already annoyed by dumb people here who aren't guided by logic and simply refer to the idiotic databook, while I and many others tried to find the most logical explanation for this, but if we still believe the databook and the fact that happens further in the story, it turns out that this is all just an usual dumb plot hole (so Itachi and the rest of Akatsuki were unaware of Kamui and Kamui worked the way it shouldn't work), which I didn't want to admit because of respect for Kishimoto. But apparently we have to admit that he is not a genius and makes such dumb plot holes, although I thought he was capable of such great twists... Then we can close this useless topic, trust the databook, admit that Obito used Kamui, this is a dumb plot hole and Kishimoto is a bit of an idiot


Basically lol. It's obvious going by the databook he had intended kamui to have been the trick, but as he developed the jutsu over time... in retrospect it makes you scratch your head. However it's clear his _intention _was kamui at the time even though it doesnt make sense today knowing what we know.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 21, 2021)

T-Bag said:


> what? no. I admitted itachi let him win, that's not up to debate lol. I was pointing out the databook is technically right that sasuke defeated itachi because that's what happened in the manga, is it not?



Pretty much no one could be truthful in calling it a defeat. Itachi let the kid kill him.


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## T-Bag (Feb 21, 2021)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Pretty much no one could be truthful in calling it a defeat. Itachi let the kid kill him.


yeah well you could say the same about biden beating trump. While the truth is Trump shoulda been the winner, the records will show Biden won. They write down the results even if they were achieved via bs.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 21, 2021)

T-Bag said:


> yeah well you could say the same about biden beating trump. While the truth is Trump shoulda been the winner, the records will show Biden won. They write down the results even if they were achieved via bs.



Imagine still being salty your guy lost - fair and square, at that (the only ''bs'' I can see is coming from you and your faction, Trump's claims of fraud have been found false multiple times)  

Imagine being so salty you're bringing it up in a comic book discussion  

Pathetic 

Aaaannnnd....you're on my ignore list. I can tolerate your delusions about Madara, but politics...that's quite another matter.


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## blk (Feb 21, 2021)

JayK said:


> It was clearly Kamui.
> 
> Ironically enough, the follow up panels are also the ones used to misinterpret Obito's rank compared to Itachi.  I guess people just don't like accepting that Obito's statement was in response to the Amaterasu trap Itachi set in Sauce's eyes.



Lol classic Obito wankers.

So you are saying that Itachi can kill Obito with A SINGLE use of Amaterasu, used in a random occurrence through Sasuke, if done right (whatever that may be)....

But that for some reason this wouldn't work if Itachi himself was the one to snipe Obito with Ama? Even considering that he himself could specifically wait to do it in optimal circumstances and multiple times?

How tf does that make sense?

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Hazuki (Feb 21, 2021)

it's an interesting subject

first of all, the context is particular
obito is in a friendly posture with sasuke
he takes off his mask to make him understand that sasuke can trust him

in this context, obito has no reason to activate its kamui or to be intangible.
and by the time he removes his mask halfway, the amaterasu is already activated near his head.
he takes the amaterasu almost in the face and during 3 or 4 pages we can hear him suffering in the dark.

So it proves that this surprise attack hit Obito, who was not in a combat situation at the base, he was just facing a depressed and weakened sasuke.

after several pages of suffering, we see him recovering his mask.
and say that he would have died if itachi knew everything about him.
he suggests that itachi with all the knowledge about obito, could have killed obito using sasuke that would have attacked him with his amaterasu by surprise in a situation of peace.

already I think that logically itachi knew that obito could teleport and be intangible thanks to kamui, otherwise how can obito present himself as a madara, the one who controls everything, if he never proved to itachi that he had special powers?

it's logical to think that itachi knew at least that obito could use the kamui.

The question is, did he know the extent of kamui?
We don't know.

we just know that obito was surrounded by the ants of shino which absorbed his chakra and thus touched his body.
and even in this situation obito managed to disappear thanks to kamui.

did itachi know that obito was able to use the kamui while he was hit? i don't know.

for the izanagi this is the most logical version
obito was struck by the amaterasu by surprise, he suffered for several pages and came back to take his mask as if nothing had happened.

for me there are two possibilities


-  it's the kamui , obito found a way to disappear as he did against shino
and in this case  we can considered that itachi may not have known that obito could disappear while he was hit.
it's logic argument if itachi  wasn't aware about the extend of kamui


it is the izanagi , obito suffered during a moment of the amaterasu and before dying he uses the izanagi to come back.
but at the same time itachi himself knows how to use izanami,i hate troubble to  believe that itachi was not aware that obito can use izanagi.

obito said
"I would have died if itachi had known of my abilities."

the problem is that logically itachi is still supposed to know that "madara uchiha" can use izanagi
and he  is also supposed to know that "madara uchiha" uses kamui

however if we assume that itachi was aware about obito izanagi maybe itachi wasn't aware about the full extend of kamui

so it's still very difficult to figure out
it really depend how far itachi knew about obito

the izanagi version is very logic , but it's not that logic if we supposed that even itachi who is an uchiha user of izanami wasn't aware about knowledge such as obito as izanagi user
( itachi isn't an idiot , he is an uchiha , izanami user but had no knowledge about izanagi obito ?  hum I can't imagine that )

the extend of kamui is also very logic if we considere that itachi didn't really knew about what's the limit of the kamui  ( capacity to disappearing even when surrounded by thousands of insects)

it is more likely that itachi knew that obito could use the izanagi than to know everything about his kamui.

*the kamui remains much more mysterious than the izanagi*

if itachi could do the izanami, there is nothing illogical to think that itachi knew that obito (madara) could use the izanagi.
this is not necessarily the case for kamui
itachi must have known about it, but how much did he know?

finally I would say that for uchiha itach an  izanami user, I think his lack of knowledge about obito( madara)   is more logical with the kamui rather than the izanagi.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 21, 2021)

@FlamingRain @MShadows Is this guy a dupe?


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## Quipchaque (Feb 21, 2021)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> @FlamingRain @MShadows Is this guy a dupe?



Wow ruuude. Why in the World would you even care about that? Are you salty about his Thread or what??

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Quipchaque (Feb 21, 2021)

Hazuki said:


> it's an interesting subject
> 
> first of all, the context is particular
> obito is in a friendly posture with sasuke
> ...





Again we do not know if the kamui ability was already fleshed out in Kishimoto's head and given how much was still unknown about Kamui for the reader it is fairly possible that Kishimoto just did not care about consistency in that amaterasu scene. One could also easily explain this with Obito being a Troll. He loves to pretend how much he got hurt. and making it look so impossible and illogical only added to Kishimoto's idea to make Obito look like the real Madara and make him as impressive+mysterious as possible. 
It also gives him more credibility if the reader believes that it was not his last ditch ability that saved him but his most basic mangekyo ability, the Kamui. Which is why I assume Kishimoto wants us to believe it was in fact the Kamui. In any case the flames seemingly Hitting him does not necessarily mean anything. Nor does his off-guard Attitude because even if he was off-guard It is also possible that Obito auto-activates Kamui even if he feels he is safe. 

You also say Itachi Has to know about kamui to credibly Fall for "Madara" 's fake identity. That is not necessarily true. After all who else could teach him about the mangekyo sharingan, the history of the Uchiha and control the 9-tails? It only makes sense that he would believe it was in fact "Madara". Also knowing about kamui does not necessarily mean Itachi has to know its weaknesses so "Madara" Thinking to himself that he would be dead does not automatically disprove the possibility that he used kamui.


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## JayK (Feb 21, 2021)

Final Fantasy said:


> Obito's statement being in reference to the Amaterasu trap wouldn't make sense if he used kamui


You are correct.

It in fact actually makes perfect sense.



blk said:


> Lol classic Obito wankers.
> 
> So you are saying that Itachi can kill Obito with A SINGLE use of Amaterasu, used in a random occurrence through Sasuke, if done right (whatever that may be)....
> 
> ...


I never said any of this shit but sure.

Whichever mental gymnastics help you sleep at night.


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## Mad Scientist (Feb 21, 2021)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> I doubt Kishimoto cares about the clothes in that scene lol.


That's fine, but nothing at all suggests it is more likely Kishi just somehow forgot about the clothes that were burned through by the fires of a technique that made Obito scream in agony—the databook reference, remarking him as having remained _unscathed,_ clarifies as much. Pay attention to the clothing detail that Kishimoto pays attention to throughout the manga.

You may have had an inch if we hadn't seen a huge close-up panel of Obito in the aftermath.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> Especially since Kamui was still an unsolved mystery, meaning he needed to make it as random as possible. Heck for all we know even Kishimoto Himself did not have any concrete ideas how to make the ability look like for Obito yet.


Kishimoto only needed to make Obito's actions sufficiently mysterious. Hindsight allows us to easily connect the dots—the author does explain himself in the end. Obito's mysterious phasing? Explained. Why Kakashi couldn't warp him? Explained. How Obito appeared to remain completely unscathed after being hit directly by Itachi's Amaterasu, which is able to burn through all things, which made him scream in agony? Explained. Not only was it used during Konan's fight, it was used by Danzo and was referenced by Itachi, with him even using a different but similar technique. You may have had a point if there was no obvious answer in hindsight.


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## Quipchaque (Feb 21, 2021)

Mad Scientist said:


> That's fine, but nothing at all suggests it is more likely Kishi just somehow forgot about the clothes that were burned through by the fires of a technique that made Obito scream in agony—the databook reference, remarking him as having remained _unscathed,_ clarifies as much. Pay attention to the clothing detail that Kishimoto pays attention to throughout the manga.
> 
> You may have had an inch if we hadn't seen a huge close-up panel of Obito in the aftermath.
> 
> ...



You are assuming a Lot here. No one says Kishimoto wanted to give us a hint with the clothing detail, no one says Kishimoto Wrote what the databook emphasizes and means to tell us anything with that emphasized Detail either, no one says Obito legitimately was in pain he could have been Messing around or Kishimoto wanted to create a red herring, nobody says he wanted to make it As logical and easy to See through what Truly happened As possible.

I really don't think you can Pinpoint exactly what is going on in that scene and Chances are Kishimoto does not care that we can either. I assume it was kamui and I will Gladly Accept if you believe otherwise but As long As there is no direct reference in the Manga I will not Accept any explanation of you As Canon. I believe it was kamui and agree to disagree.


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## blk (Feb 21, 2021)

JayK said:


> You are correct.
> 
> It in fact actually makes perfect sense.
> 
> ...



So you agree that Itachi with knowledge would kill Obito as stated in canon?


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## ShinAkuma (Feb 21, 2021)

Most likely Obito's solution is related to something Itachi could not know, so Kamui is probably out.

So something to do with being half white zetsu or Izanagi is my guess.

And I just put more thought into it than Kishi did when writing it.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Danisor (Feb 21, 2021)

Kamui succ, that's how.


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## Isaiah13000 (Feb 21, 2021)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Because Izanagi was not part of the story at that point. "Madara" 's invincibility was always connected to his Kamui portrayal. Besides Obito said "if Itachi knew my secrets I would be dead now".. Sounds more like a Kamui Moment tbh because Izanagi works as a game Changer that is almost impossible to Bypass. Kamui on the other Hand has a Ton of weaknesses.


Itachi also knew about Izanagi in general too, so it only makes sense to be Kamui. Konan has known Obito even longer than Itachi has and is the only known member who figured out how it all worked so it does make sense.

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## Final Fantasy (Feb 21, 2021)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Itachi also knew about Izanagi in general too, so it only makes sense to be Kamui. Konan has known Obito even longer than Itachi has and is the only known member who figured out how it all worked so it does make sense.


It doesn't make sense if it was kamui he used to defeat Amaterasu, because if that's the case than it doesn't matter how Itachi uses Amaterasu it, Obito can just use Kamui to beat it no matter what. So Obito wouldn't have said that Itachi could have killed him, if he was referring to that specific scenario.

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## Isaiah13000 (Feb 21, 2021)

Final Fantasy said:


> It doesn't make sense if it was kamui he used to defeat Amaterasu, because if that's the case than it doesn't matter how Itachi uses Amaterasu it, Obito can just use Kamui to beat it no matter what. So Obito wouldn't have said that Itachi could have killed him, if he was referring to that specific scenario.


Something like Amaterasu being able to kill Obito at all in general makes no sense to be blunt. Whether its Kamui or Izanagi both of them should be able to counter it. Kamui can warp away anything that Obito is in contact with and Izanagi can undo anything that Obito is hit with, so regardless the statement makes no sense because Amaterasu can't kill Obito regardless. DB3 also states that it is Kamui that he uses to do it based on what people have posted in this thread so far.


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## Mider T (Feb 21, 2021)

What is Inzagi?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sloan (Feb 21, 2021)

The Amaterasu lands on Obito’s right sude of the body(arm first).   That’s zetsu. He probably Kamui’d the right part of his body or phased it until Amaterasu was done burning.  Though im confused why he teleported to boxland.

Could be Izanagi as well both work to elimate the tgreat.


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## T-Bag (Feb 21, 2021)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Itachi also knew about Izanagi in general too, so it only makes sense to be Kamui. Konan has known Obito even longer than Itachi has and is the only known member who figured out how it all worked so it does make sense.


Izanagi was originally explained to be a power of the six paths before it was retconned. When obito told konan he used izanagi she was stunned how a uchiha could possibly use it. So with this in mind, itachi couldnt have known about izanagi, even konan a close confidant wasnt aware of it.


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## Hazuki (Feb 21, 2021)

Final Fantasy said:


> ,* because if that's the case than it doesn't matter how Itachi uses Amaterasu , * Obito can just use Kamui to beat it no matter what. So Obito wouldn't have said that Itachi could have killed him, if he was referring to that specific scenario.



of course it matter

itachi did not use amaterasu on obito by himself or even during a fight
he trapped sasuke eyes ( who was totally weaken ) so that at the moment when obito takes off his mask in a context of friendship, he takes the amaterasu in his face.

itachi knew very well that obito was going to approach sasuke as a trusted friend and show him his face to prove his sincerity.

when obito admits that he would have died if itachi had been aware of all his abilities.
it just shows that itachi could have done more, for example used twice the amaterasu to prevent obito from acting.

it is important to understand that the situation was  very special.
everyone would have taken the amaterasu in the face in this context
it doesn't mean that amaterasu is effective against obito, it's just that in this very precise context, obito could have died without his powers.

it's still human beings, if obito is eating with sasuke and suddenly sasuke uses amaterasu, obito won't guess the surprise attack and counter it.

even a simple kunai  might kill obito  in a context of peace with a suprise attack 

the context is very important


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## Final Fantasy (Feb 22, 2021)

Hazuki said:


> it just shows that itachi could have done more, for example used twice the amaterasu to prevent obito from acting.


How would using twice the Amaterasu have prevented Obito from acting?


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## Hazuki (Feb 22, 2021)

Final Fantasy said:


> How would using twice the Amaterasu have prevented Obito from acting?



I don't know, it was just an example like that.
I did not try to find out what strategy itachi could have used.

maybe using the amaterasu twice in a precise timing would not have given obito time to disappear.
we don't really know the limits of obito's power, apart from its 5 minutes limit and that it can disappear even when attacked by thousands of insects.

but what we do know is that obito could have died if he had not kept certain things to himself.

it doesn't change the fact that this is a unique situation.
and in this situation, it's totally normal to take the amaterasu in the face and die.

what's interesting is that obito said to sasuke
"in order to kill me itachi placed a jutsu in you, or at least to keep me away from you."

so even obito assumed that itachi didn't think his amaterasu trap  would kill  obito necessarily
he knew that itachi was aware  about his lack of knowledge  of obito's hidden abilities and that it wouldn't be enough to kill him.

and when edo itachi learned that sasuke was manipulated by obito 
he was not so surprised, he understood that his trap was not enough because obito had kept some knowledge  for himself


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Feb 23, 2021)

Artistwannabe said:


> Has already been answered by the author himself


The extract isn't explicit on how he accomplished that. Like Kamui definitely doesn't have the ability to reflect all offensive attacks, it just says that his body is unscathed ie., recieved no damage which doesn't translate to him explicitly using Kamui to accomplish that. Additionally there are some inconsistencies in that extract, him transcending space is an ability he never displayed in the later arcs which implies that the author either glossed it over or him accomplishing that is simply an artistic choice to obscure the visual effects of his actual Kamui application.

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## Mad Scientist (Feb 23, 2021)

MagicalMiraclesOfWater65 said:


> him transcending space is an ability he never displayed in the later arcs


He can transport parts of his body to the Kamui dimension. That's how he achieved the windmill disappearance trick.


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## The_Conqueror (Feb 23, 2021)

Izanagi only works after it is activated so obito needed to have activated izanagi before the a mate tau hit him. 
Or may be obito had maybe implanted izanagi for specific situations to activate like itachi did with amaterasu on sasuke 

Kamui seems the best option , backed by databook and no need of elaborate hypothesis

Reactions: Agree 3


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## BlackMantle (Feb 23, 2021)

mods you didn't delete all my posts, work harder lol

Reactions: Funny 1


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## BlackMantle (Feb 23, 2021)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Itachi also knew about Izanagi in general too, so it only makes sense to be Kamui. Konan has known Obito even longer than Itachi has and is the only known member who figured out how it all worked so it does make sense.


I already explained it logically, the secret that Obito kept from Itachi might not have been the izanagi itself, but the collection of sharingans after the Uchiha clan massacre, besides, Obito obviously had one eye, so Itachi could assume that he would sacrifice this eye for the sake of izanagi and that might be enough for him, if this is not another plot hole and it turns out that you cannot use the only eye for izanagi, because there wasn't a single case of sacrifice of the last eye, even Danzo didn't use it, although it might have made sense to him


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## BlackMantle (Feb 23, 2021)

The_Conqueror said:


> Izanagi only works after it is activated so obito needed to have activated izanagi before the a mate tau hit him.
> Or may be obito had maybe implanted izanagi for specific situations to activate like itachi did with amaterasu on sasuke
> 
> Kamui seems the best option , backed by databook and no need of elaborate hypothesis


it has already been decided that the databook is undoubtedly a trusted data source, Obito actually used Kamui and this is a plot hole, but you're the second person to claim that izanagi couldn't have been used at that moment and I'd like to see the proofs that this is impossible (because at least for the anime I provided the proofs of the possibility of that). In my understanding, he used izanagi right before his death and had already chosen the best outcome of fate for himself at that moment, thanks to which he was reborn unharmed or you could consider the scenario where Madara taught Obito how to program izanagi to be used right after death, why not (but the case of Madara using izanagi after death doesn't really seem logical compared to how izanagi was shown earlier, so it's probably a plot hole as well)?


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Feb 23, 2021)

Mad Scientist said:


> He can transport parts of his body to the Kamui dimension. That's how he achieved the windmill disappearance trick.


But shouldn't the fact that he never displayed it in the later arcs imply that that the feature is no longer valid? I mean, during the WA he couldn't erase parts of his body (w/ his clothing) creating that exact vanishing effect which likely implies he no longer possesses that ability. Tbf MS Obito was likely retconned like exemplified by him stating he possessed sensory abilities (when he tracked Taka) which he never displayed after the revelation.


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## Mad Scientist (Feb 23, 2021)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> You are assuming a Lot here. No one says Kishimoto wanted to give us a hint with the clothing detail,


Actually, I'm not. You are the one making the heavy assumptions. For example, the idea that Kishimoto not wanting to reveal details via the clothing somehow is more real than a huge panel of Obito (among other panels) in which his shoulders are *vividly unscathed*—a reference to which is even literally made in the databook. You understand where I'm going with this? We *directly* see _*proof*_ that his shoulder remains unscathed. You are implying that was not real, because Kishimoto didn't want to reveal details—begs the question why Kishimoto didn't just keep Obito's shoulder out of the reader's sight. I would appreciate the plausibility of your point if Obito's shoulder was hidden, or if we saw him from a bird's eye point of view, but neither of these things were the case. The author _*wanted us to see*_ that Obito's appearance was _*perfectly fine*_.

​
Obito even internally notes "or else I *would* be dead," solidifying the fact that Amaterasu did in fact make contact with some form of Obito, which is corroborated by his screaming agony, Sasuke's shock, and praise of Itachi.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> no one says Kishimoto Wrote what the databook emphasizes and means to tell us anything with that emphasized Detail either,


Do you realise that databooks are just _summaries_ of the volumes/manga chapters that each book covers—the fourth one covers up to Chapter 695, for example. It states nothing that is not already present in the manga. It may, in some cases, provide some clarification, but it doesn't have anything notable which isn't already in the manga. Databooks are just summaries of the chapters, with interesting tidbits here and there. Flavour text aside, all meaningful statements are found in the manga. It spells out what is basically common sense. With such strong ties to the manga, the authored databooks carry more substance than the opinions of random Internet posters. *If Kishimoto didn't mean to emphasise or tell us anything with "that emphasized Detail either," why are details emphasised in the databook?!*

That hindsight has been the subject of an ill fate which relegates its role to that befitting an abandoned scrapyard when it would otherwise be integral to the reader's toolkit is a disgrace. I urge you to wield it. Please. The databook listed three examples of Obito's powers; filling in the answers is elementary when you understand this.

- "Deflecting all attacks" → Kamui (warping)
- "Remaining unscathed after Amaterasu" → Izanagi
- "Vanishing through the air" → Kamui (phasing)

*Is deflecting attacks achieved by phasing?* Of course not. Phasing does not "deflect" attacks.

*How did Obito remain completely unscathed after apparently being directly hit by Amaterasu?* Notice how Obito mentally reacted to Amaterasu before it actually hit him? Is it not plausible that he could have used Izanagi there, especially when Obito could use Izanagi in the face of billions of exploding tags, and someone like Danzo could react with Izanagi to Sasuke's V3 Susanō arrows?

​
Notice how Danzo also appeared to take damage but had instead used Izanagi?

​
*How did Obito vanish through the air?* By transferring parts of his body into the Kamui dimension.

All of the above can be deduced straight from the manga.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> no one says Obito legitimately was in pain he could have been Messing around or Kishimoto wanted to create a red herring, nobody says he wanted to make it As logical and easy to See through what Truly happened As possible.


There was no red herring. But the genjutsu _was_ there. The readers simply didn't know how to interpret it, at the time. Like the illusory (to-be-rewritten) Danzo, the illusory Obito was clearly in pain...


​
...why else would he then go on to strongly praise Itachi and internally note "or else I *would *be dead"?

Why was Obito shocked about Amaterasu activating?

​
Why was his body angled as if he were trying to react away from the flames?



DiscoZoro20 said:


> I really don't think you can Pinpoint exactly what is going on in that scene and Chances are Kishimoto does not care that we can either. I assume it was kamui and I will Gladly Accept if you believe otherwise but As long As there is no direct reference in the Manga I will not Accept any explanation of you As Canon. I believe it was kamui and agree to disagree.


May I ask, what exactly is difficult to pinpoint? Do these unpinpointable events _need _to be explained for it to be the obvious conclusion (Izanagi) as opposed to the far more contrived Kamui explanation that would have posters like you assume:

1. The writer had some intention to "deceive" despite hard evidence being shoved in our faces that Obito's shoulder was unscathed _both _by the manga and databook.
2. Obito was just orchestrating a play when being struck by the highest fire style jutsu; *"he could have been Messing around"*?
3. His praise about Itachi is rendered ambiguous in spite of how vividly he seems to honour him.
4. Kamui was somehow able to warp _flames_ that had already been attached to his shoulder while he was screaming in agony?

...

Where there exists a simple, accurate explanation, why would you go to such lengths to defend a clearly inaccurate one?

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## Mad Scientist (Feb 23, 2021)

MagicalMiraclesOfWater65 said:


> But shouldn't the fact that he never displayed it in the later arcs imply that that the feature is no longer valid? I mean, during the WA he couldn't erase parts of his body (w/ his clothing) creating that exact vanishing effect which likely implies he no longer possesses that ability. Tbf MS Obito was likely retconned like exemplified by him stating he possessed sensory abilities (when he tracked Taka) which he never displayed after the revelation.


Could you link a scan or reference the chapter you're talking about? I would imagine he didn't because it wasn't necessary. He reacted to 6G Gai's kick btw, which could suggest he had nice sensory abilities.


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## Sloan (Feb 23, 2021)

Mad Scientist said:


> Could you link a scan or reference the chapter you're talking about? I would imagine he didn't because it wasn't necessary. He reacted to 6G Gai's kick btw, which could suggest he had nice sensory abilities.


I assume Miracles is talking about:

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## Transcendent Shinobi (Feb 23, 2021)

I just re watched the scene where Obito is getting burned alive by the black flames and he is clearly in pain and dying in the darkness you can hear it. Kamui has a specific noise when it activates and you don't hear it. He definitely used Izanagi. Him grunting in searing pain means Kamui was never activated. Lastly it takes a few seconds before he reappears before Sasuke, if it was truly Kamui he would have reappeared instantly. Obito then brags about Itachi not knowing things about him. It is so obviously Izanagi that I don't even know what else to say.

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## BlackMantle (Feb 24, 2021)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> I just re watched the scene where Obito is getting burned alive by the black flames and he is clearly in pain and dying in the darkness you can hear it. Kamui has a specific noise when it activates and you don't hear it. He definitely used Izanagi. Him grunting in searing pain means Kamui was never activated. Lastly it takes a few seconds before he reappears before Sasuke, if it was truly Kamui he would have reappeared instantly. Obito then brags about Itachi not knowing things about him. It is so obviously Izanagi that I don't even know what else to say.


yeah, if we're guided by logic


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## BlackMantle (Feb 24, 2021)

So? The_Conqueror, Artistwannabe have something to say? Btw I've already proved my point of view with the example of Madara, who was able to choose and change his fate even after death, so there is no reason to believe that this cannot be done before death. So either I'm right and it's possible, or it's a plot hole (for manga), take your pick


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## BlackMantle (Feb 24, 2021)

MagicalMiraclesOfWater65 said:


> But shouldn't the fact that he never displayed it in the later arcs imply that that the feature is no longer valid? I mean, during the WA he couldn't erase parts of his body (w/ his clothing) creating that exact vanishing effect which likely implies he no longer possesses that ability. Tbf MS Obito was likely retconned like exemplified by him stating he possessed sensory abilities (when he tracked Taka) which he never displayed after the revelation.


I don't even take the explanation of replacing the whole body with Hashirama cells with the help of Kamui seriously, it's even less logical than just using Kamui


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Feb 24, 2021)

Mad Scientist said:


> Could you link a scan or reference the chapter you're talking about? I would imagine he didn't because it wasn't necessary. He reacted to 6G Gai's kick btw, which could suggest he had nice sensory abilities.


Did he react to a blindside kick? If so I'll concede, but I think that if the author legitimately believes that a specific artistic choice is part of a character's power, he would illustrate it a bit more frequently like there's a single feat of him doing that which doesn't explicitly align with his general portrayal, especially since MS Obito had lots of screen time to showcase the last dregs of his power plentifully.


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 24, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


> So? The_Conqueror, Artistwannabe have something to say? Btw I've already proved my point of view with the example of Madara, who was able to choose and change his fate even after death, so there is no reason to believe that this cannot be done before death. So either I'm right and it's possible, or it's a plot hole (for manga), take your pick


Madara was already stated to code his Izanagi beforehand to be activated after death, while Obito was clearly taken off-guard and the next time we see him use it against Konan he activates it the instant he's about to die. So we know Obito doesn't employ what Madara does by the fact that we've seen how he uses Izanagi afterwards. It's on you to prove that he does so.
And to all the people who say he used Izanagi the moment Amaterasu struck him, why couldn't he just use Kamui in that instance then? It's less of a gain to waste one eye on a fodder jutsu lmao.

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## BlackMantle (Feb 24, 2021)

Artistwannabe said:


> Madara was already stated to code his Izanagi beforehand to be activated after death, while Obito was clearly taken off-guard and the next time we see him use it against Konan he activates it the instant he's about to die. So we know Obito doesn't employ what Madara does by the fact that we've seen how he uses Izanagi afterwards. It's on you to prove that he does so.
> And to all the people who say he used Izanagi the moment Amaterasu struck him, why couldn't he just use Kamui in that instance then? It's less of a gain to waste one eye on a fodder jutsu lmao.


So you admit it's possible? And I already noticed that you're not good with logic, because I don't understand why you think that Obito couldn't have used izanagi in the way he needed to in order to survive. If you compare it to the Konan example it's not clear exactly how he used izanagi, but he expected the attack and could prepare it in advance, but in Amaterasu's case he didn't expect this attack and could only use izanagi before his death (not just before the attack as you think), change his fate and revive unharmed, or he always had programmed izanagi and changed his fate after death as Madara taught him. As for why he couldn't use Kamui, it's obvious that you haven't even read past posts, because we already discussed this and Obito can't use Kamui after he's already been attacked (at the very least, you can cite fights against Minato, Konan and Danzo's bodyguards and it makes sense, because how can he use Kamui when he can't even concentrate?) and in the most logical case of Kamui's work, Amaterasu should have just gone through him. Also the fact that Itachi and the rest of the Akatsuki didn't know about Kamui is clearly a plot hole.


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 24, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


> So you admit it's possible? And I already noticed that you're not good with logic, because I don't understand why you think that Obito couldn't have used izanagi in the way he needed to in order to survive. If you compare it to the Konan example it's not clear exactly how he used izanagi, but he expected the attack and could prepare it in advance, but in Amaterasu's case he didn't expect this attack and could only use izanagi before his death (not just before the attack as you think), change his fate and revive unharmed, or he always had programmed izanagi and changed his fate after death as Madara taught him. As for why he couldn't use Kamui, it's obvious that you haven't even read past posts, because we already discussed this and Obito can't use Kamui after he's already been attacked (at the very least, you can cite fights against Minato, Konan and Danzo's bodyguards and it makes sense, because how can he use Kamui when he can't even concentrate?) and in the most logical case of Kamui's work, Amaterasu should have just gone through him. Also the fact that Itachi and the rest of the Akatsuki didn't know about Kamui is clearly a plot hole.


You completely didn't read my post it seems, or any of the posts before actually. It's quite clear how he uses Izanagi against Konan, by activating it once he realizes he's going to die. Why didn't he have it already set up as he had before against Itachi's Amaterasu? It's just a better application of Izanagi, no? This Konan instance already proves Obito does not use Izanagi that way, and you have to prove that he does. As for how the flames can "pass through him" he can easily remove the flames using Kamui, which is what I am trying to argue for. Why I mentioned the Kamui phase is because if he had the ample time to react to use Izanagi, why couldn't he just activate phasing (which is actually subconscious as stated in the Databook). Fact is that he got hit already, and Izanagi goes out of the window. Why? Because he can only use it before he got hit (as we've seen Izanagi does not restore you from damage already taken before activating it). We know he does not use it the way Madara did, as we've already seen how he uses it in action later. So what does that leave us with?

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## dergeist (Feb 24, 2021)

Artistwannabe said:


> Has already been answered by the author himself



Original Kamui was broken af, since Obito literally transported a jutsu away while retaining his body and keeping it fully intact. And it also means on contact at that, which means he should be been able to do that to anybody or any jutsu which touched him. If his body went there it would still be roasting. However, it got nerfed for WA.

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## BlackMantle (Feb 24, 2021)

Okay, I'm done with this guy


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 24, 2021)

BlackMantle said:


> Okay, I'm done with this guy


Concession accepted

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## Final Fantasy (Feb 24, 2021)

Artistwannabe said:


> This Konan instance already proves Obito does not use Izanagi that way


No, that only proves he didn't use it that way vs Konan

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## BlackMantle (Feb 24, 2021)

Artistwannabe said:


> Concession accepted


Yeah, I should've said "with this troll"


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## Final Fantasy (Feb 24, 2021)

Artistwannabe said:


> As for how the flames can "pass through him" he can easily remove the flames using Kamui, which is what I am trying to argue for


If he could remove the flames, why didn't he do that from the beginning? Why does it take so long for him to come out of the shadows?

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## Artistwannabe (Feb 24, 2021)

Final Fantasy said:


> No, that only proves he didn't use it that way vs Konan


If he could use it the way Madara can, why doesn't he always have his eye set up that way? It's more efficient. But no, he had to use it before he died. You have to prove that he can use it this way, not me. I already have proof of the opposite.


Final Fantasy said:


> If he could remove the flames, why didn't he do that from the beginning? Why does it take so long for him to come out of the shadows?


Dramatic effect? He was also caught off-guard, so he probably needed time to recompose himself.

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## Final Fantasy (Feb 24, 2021)

Artistwannabe said:


> I already have proof of the opposite.


What proof do you have of the opposite? 



Artistwannabe said:


> Dramatic effect?


There's no reason for Obito to just let himself burn, if he knows he can deal with it from the get go.

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## Artistwannabe (Feb 24, 2021)

Final Fantasy said:


> What proof do you have of the opposite?


The Konan instance where we see how Obito actually applies Izanagi into battle, simple.


Final Fantasy said:


> There's no reason for Obito to just let himself burn, if he knows he can deal with it from the get go.


As I said before, he was caught off-guard and probably needed to recompose himself. Amaterasu burns as "hot as the sun", that's an insane amount of pain you have to power through.

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## Final Fantasy (Feb 24, 2021)

Artistwannabe said:


> As I said before, he was caught off-guard and probably needed to recompose himself. Amaterasu burns as "hot as the sun", that's an insane amount of pain you have to power through.


It still wouldn't make sense for it to be Kamui, because if that was the case then Itachi could have never killed him with Amaterasu.

Also he didn't make the Kamui sound either.

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## Artistwannabe (Feb 24, 2021)

Final Fantasy said:


> It still wouldn't make sense for it to be Kamui, because if that was the case then Itachi could have never killed him with it.


Itachi in a million years would never be able to kill Obito, but that is out of the question. We don't actually know how much Itachi knew about "Madara's" abilities, heck it's more strange for it to be Izanagi considering Itachi knows every in and out of it and even it's counter jutsu Izanami.


Final Fantasy said:


> Also he didn't make the Kamui sound either.


Anime doesn't really count as they can't take creative liberties from the author.

Actually we have never even seen Obito wrap anything to his pocket dimension before this too. So that just adds up to everything else.

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## Final Fantasy (Feb 24, 2021)

Artistwannabe said:


> Anime doesn't really count as they can't take creative liberties from the author.


I'm not talking about anime, in the manga there wasn't the sfx for kamui

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## Artistwannabe (Feb 24, 2021)

Final Fantasy said:


> I'm not talking about anime, in the manga there wasn't the sfx for kamui


That can easily be explained by him wanting to keep how he survived mysterious etc... We still did not know Madara could wrap anything else but himself into the pocket dimension, heck we didn't even know he had one in the first place at that point in the manga.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Final Fantasy (Feb 24, 2021)

Artistwannabe said:


> heck it's more strange for it to be Izanagi considering Itachi knows every in and out of it and even it's counter jutsu Izanami.


Itachi couldn't use Izanami on Obito in that instant.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 24, 2021)

Final Fantasy said:


> Itachi couldn't use Izanami on Obito in that instant.


That's irrelevant though, the Amaterasu was a last ditch effort
He know extensively about Izanagi so I don't see why that would be a mysterious secret to somebody who knows it so well he even knows it's counter.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Final Fantasy (Feb 24, 2021)

Artistwannabe said:


> That's irrelevant though, the Amaterasu was a last ditch effort as Itachi when revived already assumed Tobi survived


I'm just saying there's no point in saying that Itachi knew the in's and out's of Izanagi and had Izanami, because it doesn't make a difference.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 24, 2021)

Final Fantasy said:


> I'm just saying there's no point in saying that Itachi knew the in's and out's of Izanagi and had Izanami, because it doesn't make a difference.


It does make a difference though, as him knowing Izanagi so well means it's not that much of a secret to be kept from him lol.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Final Fantasy (Feb 24, 2021)

Artistwannabe said:


> It does make a difference though, as him knowing Izanagi so well means it's not that much of a secret to be kept from him lol.


He didn't know as far as I know whether Obito had a second eye.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 24, 2021)

Final Fantasy said:


> He didn't know as far as I know whether Obito had a second eye.


He assumed Obito was Madara who had both Eternal Mangekyou. Not to mention Itachi knew Obito was fighting the corps alone, it's stupid to think he wouldn't have taken something.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Final Fantasy (Feb 24, 2021)

Artistwannabe said:


> He assumed Obito was Madara who had both Eternal Mangekyou


Obito claimed he (Madara) was injured.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 24, 2021)

Final Fantasy said:


> Obito claimed he was injured.


You can be injured in many ways.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Final Fantasy (Feb 24, 2021)

Artistwannabe said:


> You can be injured in many ways.


Honestly if I was Itachi I would think there's no point to the mask unless he had one eye.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 24, 2021)

Final Fantasy said:


> Honestly if I was Itachi I would think there's no point to the mask unless he had one eye.


I would think it's to concieve his identity lol. Itachi literally thought he was Madara Ucbiha

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Final Fantasy (Feb 24, 2021)

Artistwannabe said:


> I would think it's to concieve his identity lol


He wouldn't need a one eye mask to conceal his identity.  Besides when he first met Itachi his hair was exactly like Madara and when he fought Minato he wasn't trying to conceal his identity. I don't think he ever tried to conceal he was madara.

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## Artistwannabe (Feb 24, 2021)

Final Fantasy said:


> He wouldn't need a one eye mask to conceal his identity.  Besides when he first met Itachi his hair was exactly like Madara and when he fought Minato he wasn't trying to conceal his identity. I don't think he ever tried to conceal he was madara.


The sheer fact is why would he wear a mask when he's proudly proclaiming he's Madara? Fact is most of the verse is stupid as hell. Why not proudly just show his "glorious" face if he was the real deal?

Reactions: Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## Final Fantasy (Feb 24, 2021)

Artistwannabe said:


> Why not proudly just show his "glorious" face if he was the real deal?


His face could be scarred.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 24, 2021)

Final Fantasy said:


> His face could be scarred.


And that's enough of a reason to hide your face? Kisame unironically was the only one that was smart enough to want proof of his claims lol. I mean technically half of Obito's face is fucked up so he could probably pass as an uglier Madara lol

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## T-Bag (Feb 24, 2021)

Sloan said:


> I assume Miracles is talking about:


Obito never had sensory powers, he's just using vague terms " i have powers" to keep his abilities a mystery and have people guessing (just like he did with itachi and the others)
We found out it was actually Zetsu who pinpoints people's locations and alerts Tobi where they are.

It's actually more _genius. _I miss “Madara”  fuck obito


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## Artistwannabe (Feb 24, 2021)

T-Bag said:


> Obito never had sensory powers, he's just using vague terms " i have powers" to keep his abilities a mystery and have people guessing (just like he did with itachi and the others)
> We found out it was actually Zetsu who pinpoints people's locations and alerts Tobi where they are.
> 
> It's actually more _genius. _I miss “Madara”  fuck obito


How can you say that?

*Spoiler*: __ 




Obito senses Sasuke through *another dimension* after the white Zetsu spores have been removed from him

The Shinobi alliance is preventing BOTH of Madara and Obito's sensory abilities to be used
Or how about every time he caught up to Minato who had no Zetsu spores or anything of that sort?
Or how about Obito sensing which Bijuu chakra Naruto has been missing? And so on...

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Neutral 1


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## T-Bag (Feb 24, 2021)

Artistwannabe said:


> How can you say that?
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


I'm sure there are ways to explain those; i.e Obito being juubi's jinchuriki previously, and the alliance referring to Madara and Obito as a team, since they were working together.

But Obito not being a sensor is clear when you consider these:





You can clearly see it was Zetsu who_ pinpointed_ people's location for tobi, because he's incapable of doing it himself.
That's how he found out taka's location.


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## BlackMantle (Feb 24, 2021)

better not feed this troll​


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## Mad Scientist (Feb 24, 2021)

MagicalMiraclesOfWater65 said:


> Did he react to a blindside kick?


Looks like a blindside to me, which makes sense as approaching from the blindside gives an opponent less time to react.

T-bag's post above suggests Obito may not be a sensor.



MagicalMiraclesOfWater65 said:


> If so I'll concede, but I think that if the author legitimately believes that a specific artistic choice is part of a character's power, he would illustrate it a bit more frequently like there's a single feat of him doing that which doesn't explicitly align with his general portrayal, especially since MS Obito had lots of screen time to showcase the last dregs of his power plentifully.


That may be the case if it was relevant, but what Obito displayed there was more of a parlour trick. In battle, it would generally be a waste of chakra to phase his entire body every time someone merely tried punching him. Though there is one other instance in which he phased his entire body, which was against KCM2 Naruto.

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## BlackMantle (Feb 28, 2021)

Btw, I just realized another little detail in favor of Izanagi, if Kishi would've intended Izanagi, it's understandable why he made Obito take off his mask and then drop it (and even emphasized it), because to use Izanagi the eye must be open (ofc Obito wanted to show his sharingan, but he didn't have to take off his mask for that), although I don't believe Kishi can be that smart


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## Mar55 (Feb 28, 2021)

It was Kamui, lol.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## BlackMantle (Feb 28, 2021)

Look at this "There is no jutsu to escape its fury" from the incredibly reliable DB3, yeah!


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## Kisame (Mar 1, 2021)

You _can_ argue that based on mechanics Kamui wasn't what was used there to escape Amaterasu as many have pointed out already itt, however it is stated that it was indeed Kamui so the answer is Kamui but Kishi didn't care that much about specific details for this scene as it was supposed to be mysterious anyways.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## BungeeGumEnthusiast (Aug 6, 2021)

Most likely kamui as the databook implied and if I'm not mistaken you have to activate Izanagi *before* the jutsu takes effect and not after


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## Raiken (Aug 6, 2021)

How many times this thread getting necrod lol.

Also like Ziggy said on Page 1, Kamui makes no sense. Amaterasu had already hit him, and he had to amputate his arm against those Aburame Bugs. Databooks have a history of being wrong.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Raiken (Aug 6, 2021)

BungeeGumEnthusiast said:


> Most likely kamui as the databook implied and if I'm not mistaken you have to activate Izanagi *before* the jutsu takes effect and not after


He was only on fire. Not like hed been crushed or anything.

In the darkness he likely used the correct signs, activated and then used Izanagi.


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## BungeeGumEnthusiast (Aug 6, 2021)

Raiken said:


> He was only on fire. Not like hed been crushed or anything.
> 
> In the darkness he likely used the correct signs, activated and then used Izanagi.


A lot of things don't make sense in the series. If we say it was Izanagi that also doesn't make sense since he has to activate it before the flames hit him.

I think he just transported the flames into the dimension tbh.


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## Sleepless (Aug 6, 2021)

Kamui. He phased through it by sending his body in the dimension without the Amaterasu.

Reactions: Creative 1 | Kage 1


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 7, 2021)

BungeeGumEnthusiast said:


> Most likely kamui as the databook implied


In which line was that implied?



BungeeGumEnthusiast said:


> and if I'm not mistaken you have to activate Izanagi *before* the jutsu takes effect and not after


I don't think that's the case. Izanagi rewrites reality; why can't it rewrite a reality where the user is being damaged? Besides, there was a moment where Tobi noticed the Amaterasu while it had not reached him yet.

Using Kamui wouldn't make sense as he'd have to warp his own arm off as the barrier space is spherical and the flames had spread fast on the right side of his body, not to mention that his clothes were completely unscathed despite the Amaterasu clearly having latched onto him so it couldn't have been Kamui.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## BungeeGumEnthusiast (Aug 7, 2021)

Mad Scientist said:


> In which line was that implied?


"No one knows the extent of Madara's true powers. No member of the Akatsuki has ever seen them. Only during a rare battle has he ever left traces of his jutsu. *He has the power to deflect all offensive abilities, his body unscathed due to Itachi's Amaterasu, and vanish through the air as though transcending into space."*



Mad Scientist said:


> I don't think that's the case. Izanagi rewrites reality; why can't it rewrite a reality where the user is being damaged? Besides, there was a moment where Tobi noticed the Amaterasu while it had not reached him yet.


Because the jutsu wasn't activated before the damage had taken place, which is something that needs to take place in order for it to undo damage.



Mad Scientist said:


> Using Kamui wouldn't make sense as he'd have to warp his own arm off as the barrier space is spherical and the flames had spread fast on the right side of his body, not to mention that his clothes were completely unscathed despite the Amaterasu clearly having latched onto him so it couldn't have been Kamui.


Kaguya, Naruto and Jigen's clothes were all unscathed when amaterasu landed on them, so it's not like it's impossible for Obito's to also be intact.

Databook just implied he kamui'd the flames off of his body; whether it makes sense or not is up for discussion, but I'm pretty sure he did somehow.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## MustardPN (Aug 7, 2021)

BungeeGumEnthusiast said:


> Because the jutsu wasn't activated before the damage had taken place, which is something that needs to take place in order for it to undo damage.


Madara activated Izanagi after his death and was able to revive himself though


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## Mar55 (Aug 7, 2021)

MustardPN said:


> Madara activated Izanagi after his death and was able to revive himself though


No, he set a time activated seal into his own eye.

Just like Itachi did with Amaterasu in Sasuke's eye.

That's not what you're implying it is.


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## TraderJoe (Aug 7, 2021)

This was an interesting read. @Mad Scientist ended it at page 2 and yet it continued for 5 more pages...

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1 | Friendly 1 | Disagree 1


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## Mar55 (Aug 7, 2021)

It was Kamui, so he's wrong.


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## MustardPN (Aug 7, 2021)

Mar55 said:


> No, he set a time activated seal into his own eye.
> 
> Just like Itachi did with Amaterasu in Sasuke's eye.
> 
> That's not what you're implying it is.


I know, but the point is that Izanagi was able to undo the damage that Madara recieved before activating it


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## Mar55 (Aug 7, 2021)

MustardPN said:


> I know, but the point is that Izanagi was able to undo the damage that Madara recieved before activating it


No? It wasn't.

Madara literally had a sword wound in his chest and grafted Hashirama's skin onto it.


It just undid his actual death, he was still scarred.


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## TraderJoe (Aug 7, 2021)

Mar55 said:


> It was Kamui, so he's wrong.


Izanagi explains why he and his clothing are perfectly intact and unscathed. We have an instance where Obito was hit and needed to cut off his arm against some bugs.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MustardPN (Aug 7, 2021)

Mar55 said:


> No? It wasn't.


It was literally able to undo his death as you said


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## Mar55 (Aug 7, 2021)

TraderJoe said:


> Izanagi explains why he and his clothing are perfectly intact and unscathed


Artistic license also explains that.

Just Kaguya being covered in Amaterasu, absorbing and being untouched. 


TraderJoe said:


> We have an instance where Obito was hit and needed to cut off his arm against some bugs.


Not sure I understand the relevance?

One was infected with nano-bugs, meaning they are now inside of his body. How would he possibly deal with that via Kamui?

Amaterasu is just a physical phenomena on the surface layer of the body, which Kamui is extremely suited towards handling.


MustardPN said:


> It was literally able to undo his death as you said


And he was also still wounded from said death, as I said.

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## TraderJoe (Aug 7, 2021)

Mar55 said:


> Artistic license also explains that.
> 
> Just Kaguya being covered in Amaterasu, absorbing and being untouch


I see. The anime also depicted this. If we assume the art and the animation are off, Kamui would make sense to me. It's an assumption I don't feel necessary to make to come up with a reasonable conclusion of the facts. 



Mar55 said:


> Not sure I understand the relevance?
> 
> One was infected with nano-bugs, meaning they are now inside of his body. How would he possibly deal with that via Kamui?
> 
> Amaterasu is just a physical phenomena on the surface layer of the body, which Kamui is extremely suited towards handling


Fair point.

Lastly, Obito does remark that his ability to escape was directly related to Itachi not knowing everything about him. It's hard to believe he's referring to Kamui.

Izanagi, in my opinion, fits the facts better and makes the least amount of assumptions to explain Obito's escape.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## MustardPN (Aug 7, 2021)

Mar55 said:


> And he was also still wounded from said death, as I said.


Which proves he can undo the damage he recieved before the activation of Izanagi
But apparently not all of it as he wasn't able to undo the damage from Hashirama
Either that or he consciously didn't undo all the damage in order to apply Hashirama's cells into his wounds


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## Mar55 (Aug 7, 2021)

TraderJoe said:


> It's an assumption


It isn't, because this is not the first time someone has sustained an attack that didn't even mark their clothes. This is ever present in fiction.

Mind you, that's ignoring that the canonical explanation is it being Kamui.


TraderJoe said:


> It's hard to believe he's referring to Kamui.


Itachi doesn't know anything about Kamui, but is extremely aware of Izanagi. That aside, he believes Obito Madara. So he would obviously assume he also knows of Izanagi and Izanami.

This conclusion doesn't work for that alone.


TraderJoe said:


> Izanagi, in my opinion, fits the facts better and makes the least amount of assumptions to explain Obito's escape.


This just wrong because the explanation in canon is Obito surviving with Kamui.


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## Mar55 (Aug 7, 2021)

MustardPN said:


> Which proves he can undo the damage he recieved before the activation of Izanagi
> But apparently not all of it as he wasn't able to undo the damage from Hashirama
> Either that or he consciously didn't undo all the damage in order to apply Hashirama's cells into his wounds


You've lost the plot.

The main point is this: Izanagi has to be activate prior to harm or set to activate at a later interval. Obito did not do either of these and there is no in story reason for us to assume he has.

This is several leaps in logic to ignore what the series is telling you.


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## MustardPN (Aug 7, 2021)

Mar55 said:


> You've lost the plot.
> 
> The main point is this: Izanagi has to be activate prior to harm or set to activate at a later interval. Obito did not do either of these and there is no in story reason for us to assume he has.
> 
> This is several leaps in logic to ignore what the series is telling you.


I've never argued that, my point was that it's possible to undo the damage you recieved before activating Izanagi
My intention wasn't proving that Obito used Izanagi, i believe he used Kamui
Just wanted to correct that one statement by BungeeGumEnthusiast

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Mar55 (Aug 7, 2021)

MustardPN said:


> I've never argued that, my point was that it's possible to undo the damage you recieved before activating Izanagi
> My intention wasn't proving that Obito used Izanagi, i believe he used Kamui
> Just wanted to correct that one statement by BungeeGumEnthusiast


I apologize for my hasty behaivor. I be dumb.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Friendly 1


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## TraderJoe (Aug 7, 2021)

Mar55 said:


> It isn't, because this is not the first time someone has sustained an attack that didn't even mark their clothes. This is ever present in fiction.
> 
> Mind you, that's ignoring that the canonical explanation is it being Kamui.
> 
> ...


Are you referring to this for the cannon explanation?


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## Mar55 (Aug 7, 2021)

TraderJoe said:


> Are you referring to this for the cannon explanation?


Ye.


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## Siskebabas (Aug 7, 2021)

Holy necro no jutsu
Anyways, it was kamui. Izanagi has to be activated prior damage not after it

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## TraderJoe (Aug 7, 2021)

Mar55 said:


> Ye.


It comes off way to vague for any specifics to be obtained. I am not convinced it points to anything really. 

Anyways, I think all the details have been hashed out here, let's just agree to disagree.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mar55 (Aug 7, 2021)

The entire third passage is about Kamui, so are the two images accompanying it.


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## TraderJoe (Aug 7, 2021)

You are using a databook entry that begins with "No one knows the extent of Madara's power" and doesn't refer to Kamui specifically being used against Amatersu. If you read the exact entry: "He has the power to deflect all offensive attacks, his body is unscathed due to Itachi's Amaterasu, and vanish through the air as though transcending space."

These are each 3 separate powers: deflect all offensive attacks, body unscathed and vanishing through the air. None of this contradicts Izanagi being used for ability number 2. Additionally, the first ability is obviously hyperbolic.

Let me get this straight, this is the so called canon explanation for Kamui which you are giving more weight to the actual manga panels?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Siskebabas (Aug 7, 2021)

TraderJoe said:


> You are using a databook entry that begins with "No one knows the extent of Madara's power" and doesn't refer to Kamui specifically being used against Amatersu. If you read the exact entry: "He has the power to deflect all offensive attacks, his body is unscathed due to Itachi's Amaterasu, and vanish through the air as though transcending space."
> 
> These are each 3 separate powers: deflect all offensive attacks, body unscathed and vanishing through the air. None of this contradicts Izanagi being used for ability number 2. Additionally, the first ability is obviously hyperbolic.
> 
> Let me guess this straight, this is the so called canon explanation for Kamui which you are giving more weight to the actual manga panels?


Two point goes to izanagi while all three points easily apply to kamui. 
All izanagi is not space time jutsu, while kamui is, ir cant be more clear


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## TraderJoe (Aug 7, 2021)

Siskebabas said:


> Two point goes to izanagi while all three points easily apply to kamui.
> All izanagi is not space time jutsu, while kamui is, ir cant be more clear


The main point is that the databook doesn't directly contradict Izanagi being used for how Obito evaded Amaterasu. At the moment, it's being treated as its the cannon explanation - this simply isn't true. Moreover, the databook entry was created prior to the introduction of Izanagi to the fanbase; clearly, there would be care not to spoil any future events.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Siskebabas (Aug 7, 2021)

TraderJoe said:


> The main point is that the databook doesn't directly contradict Izanagi being used for how Obito evaded Amaterasu. At the moment, it's being treated as its the cannon explanation - this simply isn't true. Moreover, the databook entry was created prior to the introduction of Izanagi to the fanbase; clearly, there would be care not to spoil any future events.


Nothing about izanagi is space time, so it contradicts it, if you want to go further izanagi doesnt stop attacks, while kamui does, so even first point contradicts izanagi, its kamui


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## TraderJoe (Aug 7, 2021)

Siskebabas said:


> Nothing about izanagi is space time, so it contradicts it, if you want to go further izanagi doesnt stop attacks, while kamui does, so even first point contradicts izanagi, its kamui


I never said that. The powers can be Kamui, Izanagi, Kamui... and when you combine that with the actual manga where his cloth are intact, the fact the databook wouldn't want to reveal Izangi, there's no contradiction here.


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## TraderJoe (Aug 7, 2021)

Funny enough the last paragraph also points to Izanagi. Clearly, Izanagi was already incepted at this point.


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## Siskebabas (Aug 7, 2021)

TraderJoe said:


> I never said that. The powers can be Kamui, Izanagi, Kamui... and when you combine that with the actual manga where his cloth are intact, the fact the databook wouldn't want to reveal Izangi, there's no contradiction here.


No one is hiding izanagi, its mostly plot irrelevant jutsu and its reveal was way way into the future. Kamui being kamui thousand times bigger secret than fucking useless izanagi


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## TraderJoe (Aug 7, 2021)

Siskebabas said:


> No one is hiding izanagi, its mostly plot irrelevant jutsu and its reveal was way way into the future. Kamui being kamui thousand times bigger secret than fucking useless izanagi


Honestly, not sure what you are debating. 

The strongest argument for Kamui and conversely against Izanagi was that "the canon explanation for how Obito escaped Amatersu is Kamui". After further investigating this claim, it doesn't actually hold up. There's no canon explanation and the databook doesn't directly state that Kamui was used here.


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## Siskebabas (Aug 7, 2021)

TraderJoe said:


> Honestly, not sure what you are debating.
> 
> The strongest argument for Kamui and conversely against Izanagi was that "the canon explanation for how Obito escaped Amatersu is Kamui". After further investigating this claim, it doesn't actually hold up. There's no canon explanation and the databook doesn't directly state that Kamui was used here.


I will repeat it again since you seem to cant understand simple points. 
Neither kamui or izanagi existed as names at those points, as kamui was manga long kept secret so people cant find out tobi=obito
1. Kamui deflects attacks, not izanagi
2. Body unscathed applies to both
3. Vanishing and trancending space is clearly kamui, as would obito appear and vanish through manga, and its his main power and biggest secret
So youre just plainly wrong


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## TraderJoe (Aug 7, 2021)

Siskebabas said:


> I will repeat it again since you seem to cant understand simple points.
> Neither kamui or izanagi existed as names at those points, as kamui was manga long kept secret so people cant find out tobi=obito
> 1. Kamui deflects attacks, not izanagi
> 2. Body unscathed applies to both
> ...


You are making an assumption, i.e. these powers need to belong to one ability. They do not.


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## Stygai (Aug 27, 2021)

The big question isn't if it's Kamui or Izanagi, it's this:

How has no one asked Kishi for answers to this question?


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## Grinningfox (Aug 27, 2021)

DBIII says Kamui


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## GrandBenja (Aug 27, 2021)

This scene is completely misunderstood. Obito never "escaped" Amaterasu; Itachi never attempted to kill him in the first place. As I explained in my misconception thread, Obito engineered the whole scene in order to get Sasuke to his side.
Obito never was in any danger; he had Kamui activated the whole time.


GrandBenja said:


> Misconception 13 - Itachi implanted an anti-Obito Amaterasu in Sasuke's eye.
> 
> I've seen a couple of debates around the following question: did Obito use Kamui or Izanagi to survive Itachi's Amaterasu? Such conversations are a bit ironic, considering Itachi's attempt at killing Obito never happened in the first place. This scene has been misunderstood.
> 
> ...

Reactions: Funny 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Quipchaque (Aug 27, 2021)

I'd say it makes sense to be kamui for multiple reasons. 

1."Madara" At this point in time was supposed to look invincible and very casual about it. Kamui fits that bill better than his last ditch effort Izanagi. 

2. Izanagi was not yet the focus of the story and it is unlikely Kishimoto would add that randomly. Manga are typically build very systematically. 

3. there were barely any consistent restrictions. Shino's insects didn't get warped whem they swarmed him, accordingto Hinata it happened instantly and the swirl effect didn't appear either. So there is no reason to assume that it shouldn't work.


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## Reddan (Aug 27, 2021)

Despite what some people keep repeating the darabook does NOT say it was Kamui. It is ambiguous about the abilities Obito has displayed and does not give on technique for all his abilities.

Mad Scientist has already shown why Obito used Izanagi and managed to pull it off just before the flames hit

Reactions: Agree 2 | Dislike 1


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## blk (Aug 27, 2021)

DB heavily implies Kamui, so that's it. 


Even tho it doesn't really make sense now that we know how phasing work (the flames should still stay on him even if he sent that part of the body to boxland since they were attached  to his body) but what can you do


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## Reddan (Aug 27, 2021)

blk said:


> DB heavily implies Kamui, so that's it.
> 
> 
> Even tho it doesn't really make sense now that we know how phasing work (the flames should still stay on him even if he sent that part of the body to boxland since they were attached  to his body) but what can you do


The Databook just kept things ambiguous.  No jutsu was named and it was never said if his abilities were one or several.

It would be similar to say, 

"Who is this Onoki, who possess the ability to fly in the air, carry island sized turtles and vaporise walls."

Nothing is explained and it does not necessarily follow that all those abilities come from the same technique

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1 | Dislike 1


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## blk (Aug 27, 2021)

Reddan said:


> The Databook just kept things ambiguous.  No jutsu was named and it was never said if his abilities were one or several.
> 
> It would be similar to say,
> 
> ...



But it did talk about a Space Time ability. 

So there is little doubt it has to be Kamui.


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## Reddan (Aug 27, 2021)

blk said:


> But it did talk about a Space Time ability.
> 
> So there is little doubt it has to be Kamui.


It spoke about his abilities.  This doesn't mean it's down to one technique or even that they are linked.

If they said what is the jutsu then it would imply they were the same. However, it is just talking about his abilities.

When you look at the next paragraph it even references Izanagi, because it questions what was the ability that Madara used to survive Hashirama.

Reactions: Like 1


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## GrandBenja (Aug 27, 2021)

I noticed your "funny" reactions. Now let me hear your arguments.


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## Quipchaque (Jan 21, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yeah, he defeated Itachi fairly, therefore he > Itachi.
> 
> According to your logic, not mine.



He is right though, what are you saying? T-Bag merely refers to the fact that Itachi died and Sasuke did not which is by technicality Sasuke's victory. No need to go into semantics there since noone credible would ever pretend that Sasuke was stronger anyway.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jan 21, 2022)

Obito doesn't need intangibilty. He can use short range warping of other objects with his eye. And also he looked alright physically too after that so he probably warped the flames away.


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 21, 2022)

blk said:


> DB heavily implies Kamui, so that's it.
> 
> 
> Even tho it doesn't really make sense now that we know how phasing work (the flames should still stay on him even if he sent that part of the body to boxland since they were attached  to his body) but what can you do


Even Shinos Insects were onto him and he evaded them just fine so the same should apply to Amaterasu.


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