# Tsunade vs. Hiruzen



## Miyamoto Musashi (Aug 30, 2013)

Location: VotE

Knowledge: Manga

Scenario 1: Restrictions: Shiki Fuijin
Scenario 2: Restrictions: The Slug, Shiki Fuijin.


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## Mithos (Aug 30, 2013)

Hiruzen's portrayal and hype put him above any of the current Gokage. 

So I think he would win.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Aug 30, 2013)

What if I said feats only?


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## Veracity (Aug 30, 2013)

Of Hiruzen engages in Taijustu, he gets demolished. One might say, he could keep her away with Katons and doton Justu, but his stamina is garbage. So I'll say Tsunade.


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## Trojan (Aug 30, 2013)

by hype Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage, and the strongest of the Gokage. So, he stomps.

by feats, Tsunade wins, unless Hiruzen used SF.


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## 2Broken (Aug 30, 2013)

It is kind of ridiculous that I can say this seeing how long he has been in the manga and how important his role in it has been, buuuuuuuttttt.......

Hiruzen needs more feats.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Aug 30, 2013)

Edit: Restricting Shiki Fuijin


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## johnsuwey (Aug 30, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> by hype Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage, and the strongest of the Gokage. So, he stomps.
> 
> by feats, Tsunade wins, unless Hiruzen used SF.



It said he WAS the strongest of the kage.  
Not the strongest of the Hokage.


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## trance (Aug 30, 2013)

Kabuto said he was strongest of the Five Kage even in his old age, that would put him above Onōki (who has been Tsuchikage for many years) who is arguably the strongest of the current Five Kage...

So, by hype, Hiruzen...

By feats, Tsunade...


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## johnsuwey (Aug 30, 2013)

Mr. E Man said:


> Kabuto said he was strongest of the Five Kage even in his old age, that would put him above Onōki (who has been Tsuchikage for many years) who is arguably the strongest of the current Five Kage...
> 
> So, by hype, Hiruzen...
> 
> By feats, Tsunade...



Onoki's old ass is the strongest Kage?
Because I recall Gaara carrying his ass a whole bunch.


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## Trojan (Aug 30, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> It said he WAS the strongest of the kage.
> Not the strongest of the Hokage.



Not sure what are you talking about! 
because I can see that's it "Hokage"



「三代目は　特に歴代の中でも最強と言われポロフェッサーと呼ばれた天才だったんだぞ！」
"The sandaime, in particular, was a genius nicknamed the 'Professor,' and was called the strongest of all the Hokage".



Databook 1, Page 117
"プロフェッサー"と崇められる歴代最強の火影

The "Professor" revered as the strongest Hokage in history.


Databook 1, Page 119
"歴代最強""天才"など,三代目火影を形 容する言葉はに満ちている.

"History's Strongest", "Genius", etc., there are many words that describe the Sandaime Hokage.



DB2 Pg 84
Konohamaru paragraph:
歴代最強の火影と謳われた、三代目� �血を継ぐ木ノ葉丸。?木ノ葉崩し?� ��より敬愛する祖父を失い、その心は 悲しみに覆われる。だが必ずや里を� �る大樹に成長するであろう。果てぬ� ��標の祖父を目指して・ ・・！！

Konohamaru, descended from Sandaime, who was praised as history?s strongest Hokage

are not those words "Hokage" ?


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## johnsuwey (Aug 30, 2013)

And that is why you don't read the Databooks.

As far as I know the manga said Kage, and not Hokage.
If it did say Hokage, then it was probably sucking up.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 31, 2013)

Most of what Kabuto says is general garbage. Most of the ninja around Kabuto's age never witnessed other hokage in battle. It's nothing more than common popular opinion being spoken into the ear of Kabuto because Hiruzen lived long as fuck and kept the village prospering.

A logical individual would understand he's obviously weaker than Hashirama. FTG alone puts Minato and Tobirama above Hiruzen. In reality, he's, at most, tied with Tsunade as the 4th strongest. She can defeat as many ninja as he can on a tier list.

This, all irrelevant to the fact that Jiraiya, Kakashi and the 4th Raikage- advanced ninja who taught, learned from and battled him believed Minato was the greatest ninja- not just Hokage. 

Hype is said by characters to bring suspense and excitement to the manga- It's gossip. We don't need a character to tell us who's stronger- most of the time it's wrong anyway.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 31, 2013)

Basically like a Sakura vs. Kakashi thread, we all know how this is going to end.

Hiruzen in a stomp via Enma.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 31, 2013)

By hype Tsunade, because she is one of the legendary Sannin. When Oro attacked the village they suggested  that they needed another sannin to defeat him. Hiruzen admitted that he was weaker than Oro.

By feats, it could go either way, but I think Tsunade would win because Hiruzen's attack power won't be enough to destroy her, and CQC against Tsunade would be too dangerous for Hiruzen.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 31, 2013)

Tsunade would win.

Sans _Fūinjutsu: Shiki Fūjin_, Tsunade likely more or less has full knowledge on Sarutobi (as his student for so many years), whereas Sarutobi probably has no knowledge on _Sōzō Saisei/Byakugō no Jutsu_ (even Jiraiya and Orochimaru didn't). 

Tsunade can tank pretty much everything Hiruzen throws at her. Her evasion skills alone likely render his _Shuriken Kage Bunshin no Jutsu_ and _Katon: Karyū Endan_ useless. (Unless Part 2 increases the flames' size proportionately to the increase in size of his shuriken?)

Concerning Taijutsu and close-quarters, Hiruzen can't put a tag on her at the expense of a kick to the face like he did against Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama, as he will be killed upon impact. With that tactic a no-go, Sarutobi might still have the additional aid of Enma, but crushing damage Tsunade can tank. It's actually pretty likely for her to grab a hold of the other end of Sarutobi's staff as he hits her, and then use it to throw him into the stratosphere. (Although if she grabs Enma, he might partially transform and grab Tsunade before they sail off like Team Rocket, but she can just slam him into the ground cuz that works, too.)

_Even if by some miracle_ (like, it ain't happenin') Hiruzen could avoid Tsunade closing in on him, the Slug Princess can simply fall back on Katsuyu, which could honestly solo. I won't be too surprised if Katsuyu can spray _Zesshi Nensan_ more quickly than Sarutobi can spit out and erect _Doton: Doryūheki_, which Tsunade and/or Katsuyu could obliterate anyway, and Enma's _Kongō Rōheki_ defense possesses a glaring imperfection in the fact that there are many holes in it for the acid to splash through. Conversely, Hiruzen can't harm Katsuyu (or her summoner).

It's also common sense that an old man wouldn't outlast a Senju and Uzumaki descended individual even without getting into the massive disparity in feats (village healer vs. . .what exactly?), though it shouldn't come down to this anyway.

So. . .as far as I can see, this battle is impossible for Hiruzen to win from virtually any angle. The most he could have done is force a draw with _Shiki Fūjin_ (now restricted) if for whatever reason he realized he was outmatched quicker here than he did against Orochimaru. A lot quicker, since Tsunade isn't as playful as her former snake teammate.



Matto-sama said:


> Hiruzen's portrayal and hype put him above any of the current Gokage.
> 
> So I think he would win.



By portrayal and hype: Hiruzen can't match a Sannin unless he's in his prime. Hiruzen was revived as the same old man.

One of the current Five Kage is a Sannin.



Feats: El-oh-el.


He does not win this, Matto.


*Spoiler*: _Though I wouldn't mind this_ 





Winchester Gospel said:


> _"Hmph."
> 
> "ENMA!"
> 
> ...



In which case Hiruzen wins.


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## ShadowReaper (Aug 31, 2013)

Feats only - Tsunade
Hype included - Hiruzen roflstomps.
I am inclined for the second, as many chars that didn't have any impressive feats or no feats at all lived up to their hype.


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## Garcher (Aug 31, 2013)

hiruzen .... don't know how tsunade can defend herself overtime versus kage shuriken!


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## zimmawannatuba (Aug 31, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> By hype Tsunade, because she is one of the legendary Sannin. When Oro attacked the village they suggested  that they needed another sannin to defeat him. Hiruzen admitted that he was weaker than Oro.
> 
> By feats, it could go either way, but I think Tsunade would win because Hiruzen's attack power won't be enough to destroy her, and CQC against Tsunade would be too dangerous for Hiruzen.



Sannin never meant above Kage level.
They got they when they were likely only S class.



ShadowReaper said:


> Feats only - Tsunade
> Hype included - Hiruzen roflstomps.
> I am inclined for the second, as many chars that didn't have any impressive feats or no feats at all lived up to their hype.



How are Tsunade's feats better?

Hiruzen took on Orochimaru, which in base is likely the strongest of the Sannin.  Easily stronger than Tsunade.  Yet, Hiruzen essentially tied him, despite fighting Edo Tensei of the 1st and 2nd.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 31, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Location: VotE
> 
> Knowledge: Manga
> 
> ...



Going by manga feats and portrayal, Tsunade stomps.

Even in Part I, Sarutobi stated that he didn't believe any shinobi in Konoha had the strength to face and overcome Orochimaru in direct combat, including even himself. This is supported by Ebisu also stating that the only one who could possibly be expected to still be capable of defeating Orochimaru at that juncture would have to be one of his former comrades, i.e. another one of the Legendary Sannin, and Tsunade just so happens to be one of them. Manga knowledge likely favors Tsunade here, seeing as Sarutobi hadn't seen her for a long time and might not have any knowledge on Sozo Saisei or Byakugou, and died before she even returned to the village.

In their fight in the manga, Orochimaru clearly managed to best Sarutobi, but at the cost of his  arms and his ability to use most of his jutsu. On the other hand, Orochimaru quickly lost to Tsunade in their fight, in spite of both of them being mutually handicapped at the time, something that seems to validate Ebisu's statement. While I know that A > B and B > C doesn't necessarily translate to A > C in every instance, it surely does in this one. In CQC, Tsunade has a clear advantage over Hiruzen. A single hit from her destructive strength would instantly end Hiruzen's life, with even a mere finger strike from her having the capacity to deal critical damage to the much older Sandaime Hokage.

Even if Sarutobi pulled out Enma and had him enter staff form, Tsunade could probably just smash through Enma with her Susano'o-busting strength and then finish Sarutobi off with a single punch. It's also worth noting that Sarutobi is utterly incapable of doing any lasting damage to Tsunade, due to the latter's ability to use top-tier medical Ninjutsu such as Sozo Saisei and Byakugou that would instantly and automatically heal any wound that she receives from her former master or his pet staff. In contrast, even a relatively light hit from Tsunade has the potential to do serious damage to Sarutobi, so she has a serious edge here. Though it's unnecessary, Ranshinsho can be pretty problematic here too.

Tsunade also has a pretty clear advantage over Sarutobi in terms of speed, seeing as she managed to keep pace with Base Ei throughout the war, and even coordinate an attack with an Onoki-enhanced v2 Ei against Madara's Susano'o. She also managed to take Orochimaru by surprise using her speed, something Saru could never do. Sarutobi's Kage Bunshin Shuriken can be either dodged or punched through by Tsunade. I don't see Sarutobi's Katons being even remotely threatening to someone like Tsunade, who managed to guard against five of Uchiha Madara's Katons (stronger than Hiruzen's) and fully recovered from any burn damage she had received in just a few seconds. 

Sarutobi's Doton and Enma Cage are hardly useful defenses against someone who can shatter Susano'o with her physical attacks - Susano'o, the manga's one true ultimate defense, that is only surpassed by the chakra shroud of BM Naruto and the body of Juubi Obito in terms of durability. Kage Bunshins might help Sarutobi evade some of Tsunade's attacks and possibly land some blows on her, but seeing as how she managed to fend off 5 Susano'o clones for an incredibly long time (from day till dusk) and even succeed in knocking one of them down (something that the much faster Ei couldn't do), his KBs would get wasted pretty easily, and he would be next to die.

To be quite honest, Tsunade doesn't even need Katsuyu to win either scenario. This is a stomp thread, in her favor, and unless Hiruzen gets new feats, it's probably going to stay that way. I'd also like to note that Kabuto's old comment about Hiruzen being the strongest of the 5 main villages' Kages is probably outdated by now, seeing as Onoki managed to live past Hiruzen's death and kept on honing his skills, to the point that Deidara believed that Onoki was even faster in spite of his more advanced age. He also rediscovered his 'Stone Will', which gave him the strength and determination to power through at least three super moves from Madara that could've otherwise killed the 5 Kage.

If Sarutobi had Shiki Fuujin, he'd have a chance at victory, but I wouldn't see him using it IC, as he only used it against Orochimaru and his Edo Tensei due to the threat they posed to Konoha, and also because all three of them were nigh immortal and couldn't be killed by normal means. I don't see Sarutobi being so desperate to win that he would even end up sacrificing his own soul and the possibility of a happier afterlife. Even so, Tsunade would probably have taken him out before he ever got a chance to use it.


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## Garcher (Aug 31, 2013)

@above me Tsunade beat Oro without arms so he can't use his ninjutsu ... imagine tsunade without arms. Oro is clearly stronger than Tsunade. It was also mentioned in the manga at this time Hiruzen was the strongest hokage ever, lol. I wouldn't build on that statement.


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## crystalblade13 (Sep 1, 2013)

hiruzen gets his head punched off due to the fact that he cant put her down and she only needs one hit to win.


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## Bonly (Sep 1, 2013)

Tsunade should win more times then not. With Byakugo she can heal from anything Hiruzen hits her and eventually power through to him and take him out and she could outlast Hiruzen as well. Only way I can see Hiruzen winning is if he caught Tsunade in Emma's cage then had Emma poof back to Monkey mountain(or wherever the hell he lives at) thus Hiruzen wins by ringout.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 1, 2013)

The databook may have claimed Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage but . . the context with which it was used in should be looked at carefully as well.



> " The Sandaime, in particular, was a genius nicknamed the 'Professor,' and *was called* the strongest of all the Hokage ".





> " The 'Professor' *revered as* the strongest Hokage in history. "





> " Konohamaru, descended from Sandaime, who *was praised as* history’s strongest Hokage "



In each instance the databook doesn't outright claim he _was_ the strongest, but rather that it had been said that he was. And I should point out, that the one who in fact stated this was _Iruka_, who in the first place is hardly one to judge strength. Furthermore, even to the old man's dismay, it was something that had been said _in the past_. 

Also, I think it only takes a bit of common sense to see that Kabuto's comment about Hiruzen being the strongest of the five Kage was a hyperbole. Kabuto probably said this in the knowledge of Hiruzen _as he was_ in his prime, rather than in his old age - even Orochimaru was shocked at how much weaker he was during their battle.

Heck, we only have to look at Hiruzen's current display against Obito, where he fired a bunch of giant shuriken and then called it a day once he was blitzed. Furthermore, before the power of his predecessors, who are warping bijuudamas and sparring with Madara, Hiruzen looks pretty shabby. So no, I don't think his hype redeems him very much at all.

Unless he can pull out some uber Sage Mode to save his ass, he gets whooped by Tsunade. Although, she too may have a Sage Mode under her belt, so even that might not be enough.​​


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## Trojan (Sep 1, 2013)

> Heck, we only have to look at Hiruzen's current display against Obito, where he fired a bunch of giant shuriken and then called it a day once he was blitzed. Furthermore, before the power of his predecessors, who are warping bijuudamas and sparring with Madara, Hiruzen looks pretty shabby. So no, I don't think his hype redeems him very much at all.



Well, Hashi & Madara got fodderized as well by obito. I can't see the different. @.@


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## Veracity (Sep 1, 2013)

Elia said:


> Well, Hashi & Madara got fodderized as well by obito. I can't see the different. @.@



When did Madara or Obito even get hit by Obito? I'm guessing your referring to the latest chapter?


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 3, 2013)

I almost forgot to add, I don't see how Tsunade wins if we are comparing by hype at all.


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## Van Konzen (Sep 3, 2013)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Even if Sarutobi pulled out Enma and had him enter staff form, Tsunade could probably just smash through Enma with her Susano'o-busting strength and then finish Sarutobi off with a single punch.



smash through an Adamantine staff Enma? 

a staff supposed to be unbreakable,
let alone had the force to push a FULL Kurama on a significant distance..

a wood cut Tsunade into half, how much more an adamantine staff
that could easily break those Hashirama woods?


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## Veracity (Sep 3, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> smash through an Adamantine staff Enma?
> 
> a staff supposed to be unbreakable,
> let alone had the force to push a FULL Kurama on a significant distance..
> ...



Like a 5% Hashirama clone that was completely fodder. You really shouldn't compare Hashirama DNA to that shitty Thing Oro summoned

One a serious note, I don't see her breaking the staff either lol. However, she doesn't need to at all.
She can beat him in other ways.


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## Jad (Sep 3, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> let alone had the force to push a FULL Kurama on a significant distance..
> ?



Scan please.

Are you referring to this page? I don't see Hiruzen staff anywhere on that page pushing the Kyuubi, and he also implies it was a group effort with "We've".


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## P3IN (Sep 3, 2013)

By feats tsuande outclasses him especially in taijustu, he will get demolished, his stamina is also poor.

Hype wise, hiruzen


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## Van Konzen (Sep 3, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Like a 5% Hashirama clone that was completely fodder. You really shouldn't compare Hashirama DNA to that shitty Thing Oro summoned
> 
> One a serious note, I don't see her breaking the staff either lol. However, she doesn't need to at all.
> She can beat him in other ways.



no matter how you spell it, it is still a WOOD.

she could break it if her arms has Kusanagi DNA! 



Jad said:


> Scan please.
> 
> Are you referring to this page? I don't see Hiruzen staff anywhere on that page pushing the Kyuubi, and he also implies it was a group effort with "We've".



ohw my apology for not being a manga ninja and sticking to it..

I do still appreciate their anime version whether they are ridiculously
animated, still the best way to see how things worked more clearly..


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## Veracity (Sep 4, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> no matter how you spell it, it is still a WOOD.
> 
> she could break it if her arms has Kusanagi DNA!
> 
> ...



That same wood was catching and tanking TBB's. it's not just wood.


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## EliteJD (Sep 4, 2013)

By hype Hiruzen takes this. By feats Tsunade should take this easily


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## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 7, 2013)

Tsunade has this in the bag. Nothing Hiruzen can use will put her down for good bar Shiki Fuijin thanks to her Byakugo and she can easily outlast him and finish him off if she wanted to play around which wouldn't take too long. I doubt Hiruzen can actually beat a member of the Sannin if they are serious and trying to kill him instead of playing around/holding back like Orochi did.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 7, 2013)

I'm personally thinking those claims in the DB refers to Prime Hiruzen, not Elderly Hiruzen where he's substantially weaker than what he used to be.

 Anyways, I'd say Tsunade can take this. Byakugo has her tanking every hit. It allowed her to survive Madara fairly well. Not to mention once punch will literally break Hiruzen considering it smashed through Madara's Susanoo.


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## Van Konzen (Sep 8, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> I doubt Hiruzen can actually beat a member of the Sannin if they are serious and trying to kill him instead of playing around/holding back like Orochi did.



yes as long as he is in his elderly state..
though imo, Enma+Hiruzen would still give them a good fight..

at same age? 

they could be fighting for their lives..


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## Ghost (Sep 8, 2013)

Tsunade low diff. She outclasses him in almost every category.


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## Van Konzen (Sep 11, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Like a 5% Hashirama clone that was completely fodder. You really shouldn't compare Hashirama DNA to that shitty Thing Oro summoned
> 
> One a serious note, I don't see her breaking the staff either lol. However, she doesn't need to at all.
> She can beat him in other ways.



ohw Hiruzen just shattered Juubi woods.. 

lets see if the tide will turn on the next chapters..


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## Veracity (Sep 11, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> ohw Hiruzen just shattered Juubi woods..
> 
> lets see if the tide will turn on the next chapters..



Featless Juubi wood. And seriously. As it stands he's barely worth his Hokage title. He needs to show some serious feats.


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## Van Konzen (Sep 12, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Featless Juubi wood. And seriously. As it stands he's barely worth his Hokage title. He needs to show some serious feats.




it is raping the whole alliance and even Nardo needed someone to save his ass..
source of all chakra including hashi's.. and you call it featless.. :rofl

it's just a plain busting scene on the notion that
enma+hiru combo not gaining respect on countering hashi's wood in part 1,
and now we seem them do that to a God Tier wood.. 

oh well..


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## trance (Sep 12, 2013)

God of Shinobi > Slug Princess.


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## Chad (Sep 12, 2013)

Hiruzen:
>Faster Speed (Mach 100+)
>3 RDS

GG Katsuyu and Tsunade


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## Veracity (Sep 12, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> it is raping the whole alliance and even Nardo needed someone to save his ass..
> source of all chakra including hashi's.. and you call it featless.. :rofl
> 
> it's just a plain busting scene on the notion that
> ...



 
The wood had no durabilty feats. It just overwhelmes and chakra sucks. That's why a simple Suiton Justu was cutting them like butter. It just OVERWHELMES the target.

And the person above this post must be Trance. I can tell by the constant Tsunade hate. Pretty sad


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## trance (Sep 12, 2013)

> And the person above this post must be Trance. I can tell by the constant Tsunade hate. Pretty sad



I don't like to be accused of things. I already said Tsunade wins.


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## Van Konzen (Sep 12, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> The wood had no durabilty feats. It just overwhelmes and chakra sucks. That's why a simple Suiton Justu was cutting them like butter. It just OVERWHELMES the target.
> 
> And the person above this post must be Trance. I can tell by the constant Tsunade hate. Pretty sad



You are implying hashirama wood is still > juubi wood? 


the suiton used by Tobirama is intended to do such..
water can cut thru steel how much more a wood..


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## Veracity (Sep 12, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> You are implying hashirama wood is still > juubi wood?
> 
> 
> the suiton used by Tobirama is intended to do such..
> water can cut thru steel how much more a wood..



From what we've seen, in terms of durabilty, yes Hashirama's is currently superior. His wood techniques tanked a Full powered 9 tailed BD, and his Buddha statue tanked 9 of those + PS swords. Unless you think Enma>BD, then my point still stands.

And don't compare wood to steel. In this manga, wood is far harder.


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## Van Konzen (Sep 13, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> From what we've seen, in terms of durabilty, yes Hashirama's is currently superior. His wood techniques tanked a Full powered 9 tailed BD, and his Buddha statue tanked 9 of those + PS swords. Unless you think Enma>BD, then my point still stands.
> 
> And don't compare wood to steel. In this manga, wood is far harder.



dafuq did I just read?


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## Veracity (Sep 13, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> dafuq did I just read?



You read what I typed. If you think it dumb, then you should probably prove me wrong instead of making that face.


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## Van Konzen (Sep 13, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> You read what I typed. If you think it dumb, then you should probably prove me wrong instead of making that face.



it is not about proving who is right or wrong, I've had enough on your thoughts
and it wont make me feel better going all the sorts of debunking anyones ideas..

reading the manga and enjoying it would be better..


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