# Kizaru vs. Marco & Onigumo



## Shanks (Jun 12, 2014)

In character
30 meters
random island
current knowledge


*Let's go*

Edit: fuck, wrong section again.,,


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jun 12, 2014)

Onigumo is a non-factor. Kizaru beats Marco high diff like he always does.


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## Firo (Jun 12, 2014)

Onigumo has what  feats exactly?
Kizaru wins.


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## Shanks (Jun 12, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Onigumo is a non-factor. Kizaru beats Marco high diff like he always does.



Onigumo has these, remember?


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## Magician (Jun 12, 2014)

Kizaru, high-extreme diff.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jun 12, 2014)

Handcuffs aren't going to stop a laser shower from vaporizing Onigumo...


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## Goomoonryong (Jun 12, 2014)

Kizaru takes out Onigumo with a few kicks then beats Marco high diff.


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## Shanks (Jun 12, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Handcuffs aren't going to stop a laser shower from vaporizing Onigumo...





Goomoonryong said:


> Kizaru takes out Onigumo with a few kicks then beats Marco high diff.



Marco can keep up with Kizaru's speed and tank all of his attacks to save the Monkey VA to create openings, guys.


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## Nox (Jun 12, 2014)

Kizaru. Mid High Difficulty and above.


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## Luke (Jun 12, 2014)

Kizaru wins with high difficulty.


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## Nox (Jun 12, 2014)

Master Luke said:


> Kizaru wins with high difficulty.



Really? Then tell me what difficulty is Kizaru vs Marco.


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## Shanks (Jun 12, 2014)

Deus Machina said:


> Really? Then tell me what difficulty is Kizaru vs Marco.



High to Very High IMO. Here's for reasoning:


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## Luke (Jun 12, 2014)

Deus Machina said:


> Really? Then tell me what difficulty is Kizaru vs Marco.



High. 

Marco was pretty damn impressive at Marineford, and the way he's been hyped along with his position among the Whitebeard pirates lead me to believe that it would be a tough fight for Kizaru.


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## Extravlad (Jun 12, 2014)

Where did you find this beautiful fan art of Sabo at 12?


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## Shanks (Jun 12, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Where did you find this beautiful fan art of Sabo at 12?



At 12? Huh?

Found it on facebook. Original pic here:


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## Nox (Jun 12, 2014)

Master Luke said:


> High.
> Marco was pretty damn impressive at Marineford, and the way he's been hyped along with his position among the Whitebeard pirates lead me to believe that it would be a tough fight for Kizaru.



I share the same sentiments . Howver that bring me to the real question. If you believe that Kizaru vs Marco is high diff then how come you said Kizaru vs Marco and Onigumo is high difficulty as well? 

Are you saying that Onigumo gets one shot and is a complete non factor?


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## Luke (Jun 12, 2014)

Deus Machina said:


> I share the same sentiments . Howver that bring me to the real question. If you believe that Kizaru vs Marco is high diff then how come you said Kizaru vs Marco and Onigumo is high difficulty as well?
> 
> Are you saying that Onigumo gets one shot and is a complete non factor?



Yeah, pretty much


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## Pyro (Jun 12, 2014)

I'd still say Kizaru wins this with high difficulty.


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## Extravlad (Jun 12, 2014)

Sabo is looking like a child on this pic.


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## trance (Jun 13, 2014)

Goomoonryong said:


> Kizaru takes out Onigumo *with a few kicks* then beats Marco high diff.



A 'few' kicks? 

One kick and Onigumo goes down. That's not downplaying him either.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 13, 2014)

_Onigumo is only a factor if Akainu is around and get's a heart attack. Kizaru extreme difficulty, or just short of against Marco._


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## savior2005 (Jun 13, 2014)

kizaru lets onigumo put the cuffs on. kizaru then proceeds to beat the shit outta marco and onigumo


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 13, 2014)

Kizaru vs. Marco can go either way, so the addition of one VA should make them edge it.


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## Urouge (Jun 13, 2014)

^ nah kizaru wins high diff. The only reason kiz wasn't able to dispatch marco was because it takes a while to cancel out his regen. He should be nigh equal with akainu and equal with aokiji so birdy has no chance really. He will push him high to very high diff at best


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## Orca (Jun 13, 2014)

Kizaru extreme diff. Kizaru's strongest attack shown so far was shrugged off by Marco like it was nothing. That tells me that it would take everything Kizaru has to put down Marco.


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## trance (Jun 13, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Kizaru extreme diff. Kizaru's strongest attack shown so far was shrugged off by Marco like it was nothing. That tells me that it would take everything Kizaru has to put down Marco.



It depends on if Kizaru can exhaust Marco's regeneration before Marco can knock out Kizaru.


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## TheWiggian (Jun 13, 2014)

The Troll got this around high-very high diff


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jun 13, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Kizaru vs. Marco can go either way, so the addition of one VA should make them edge it.





Urouge said:


> ^ nah kizaru wins high diff. The only reason kiz wasn't able to dispatch marco was because it takes a while to cancel out his regen. *He should be nigh equal with akainu and equal with aokiji so birdy has no chance really. He will push him high to very high diff at best*


All of my yes to this.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jun 13, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> It depends on if Kizaru can exhaust Marco's regeneration before Marco can knock out Kizaru.



>Marco even having  a remote chance of knocking out Kizaru 





Like you say it'll be a question of waiting for Marco to hit his regeneration limit at which point he becomes fodder to someone like Kizaru. Boring work but not exactly difficult. 


I don't think Onguimo is as fodder as you make out though. He turns it from a medium difficulty win for Kizaru to a high difficulty one.


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## Vengeance (Jun 13, 2014)

Kizaru high difficulty imo, they have not the means to take him down.


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## Magentabeard (Jun 13, 2014)

Could go either way. Kizaru vs Marco is pretty much a stalemate but Onigumo is around and has dangerous handcuffs.


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## blueframe01 (Jun 13, 2014)

The duo wins this. Kizaru & Marco were dead equals in the war, and it was decided with Onigumo's intervention. With him on Marco's side this time, it would pretty much end the same way, but with Kizaru in the losing end IMO.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jun 13, 2014)

blueframe01 said:


> The duo wins this. Kizaru & Marco were dead equals in the war


They had two small clashes, heck, Kizaru spent more time trolling Luffy than fighting Marco. I fail to see how that makes them dead equal.


blueframe01 said:


> With him on Marco's side this time, it would pretty much end the same way, but with Kizaru in the losing end IMO.


Onigumo is an absolute nonfactor. Either 1.) a kick from Kizaru sends him into orbit or 2.) Yasakini no Magatama wipes him off the face of the planet.


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## trance (Jun 13, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> >Marco even having  a remote chance of knocking out Kizaru



I know. That's why Borsalino wins every time. 



> I don't think Onguimo is as fodder as you make out though. He turns it from a medium difficulty win for Kizaru to a high difficulty one.



Come now, AK. Onigumo is good, no doubt, but even with those handcuffs, he was only able to pry them on Marco when the latter was in his human form (i.e. much weaker) and with severe injuries no less. This will never happen to Kizaru. One quick blitz followed by a moderately powered up kick is enough to incapacitate Borsalino's fellow marine for several days.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 13, 2014)

I don't see how "being an Admiral" makes Kizaru as powerful as Akainu and Aokiji; those two were portrayed to be equals. Kizaru and the new Admirals are weaker than them. Kizaru, in particular, doesn't have any ambition and stops at Marco level. It's not like that is downplaying Kizaru , either, as Marco is fucking strong in his own right.


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## Firo (Jun 13, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Like you say it'll be a question of waiting for Marco to hit his regeneration limit at which point he becomes fodder to someone like Kizaru. Boring work but not exactly difficult.


I never understood this argument. Yes Marco has a regen limit.. But we dont even know what it is.  Not to mention Kizaru should have a limit to how many atacks he can endure from Marco. I'm not saying that Marco would win or anything btw.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jun 13, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> I don't see how "being an Admiral" makes Kizaru as powerful as Akainu and Aokiji; those two were portrayed to be equals. Kizaru and the new Admirals are weaker than them.


The Logia Trio were portrayed as very close to each other in terms of strength, especially when they each went up against Whitebeard; Kizaru held down his bisento with one foot, put a hole or two in the Yonko, then aimed for Ace's key at the same time. The difference between the Admirals is so small that it barely even matters, and I view the new Admirals on the same level as the Logia Trio until shown otherwise.


King Itachi said:


> Kizaru, in particular, doesn't have any ambition and stops at Marco level.


Whitebeard didn't have any ambition, all he wanted was a family, yet he was the Strongest Man in the World, so what's your point?


Red Hood said:


> I never understood this argument. Yes Marco has a regen limit.. But we dont even know what it is.  Not to mention Kizaru should have a limit to how many atacks he can endure from Marco. I'm not saying that Marco would win or anything btw.


Don't take him too seriously, AK loves downplaying the WB Commanders.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 13, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> The Logia Trio were portrayed as very close to each other in terms of strength, especially when they each went up against Whitebeard; Kizaru held down his bisento with one foot, put a hole or two in the Yonko, then aimed for Ace's key at the same time. The difference between the Admirals is so small that it barely even matters, and I view the new Admirals on the same level as the Logia Trio until shown otherwise.



The only thing your notion proves is bad match-ups. Akainu/Aokiji are brawler types and were suitable opponents for WB. Kizaru, on the other hand, is too fast and can exploit WB's lack of defense that's granted by Logia intangibility and/or something akin to Marco's phoenix form.

At the time, Whitebeard was stronger than any C3, but his state at MF was completely disadvantageous. I believe the difference between Kizaru/Marco is smaller than that of Kizaru vs. Akainu/Aokiji. In their clash, Kizaru and Marco were shown to be equals. 

Kizaru's offense ~ Marco's defense
Kizaru's speed ~ Marco's flight
Their respective weaknesses aren't far apart, either. 

Oda *never* intended to place Kizaru on the same level as his counterparts.



> Whitebeard didn't have any ambition, all he wanted was a family, yet he was the Strongest Man in the World, so what's your point?



That's ambition. 
His family kept him strong and moving forward; he even went to the lengths of invading MF to save a fellow nakama. 

And Whitebeard wasn't WSM at Marineford. He lost too much strength over time, and I believe the likes of Garp/Shanks were stronger.


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## Coruscation (Jun 13, 2014)

I don't see Onigumo being much of a game changer in a battle between two titans like Marco and Kizaru. The main reason he was able to land a crippling blow on Marco in the war was simply that Marco was already distracted, focusing only on trying to get to Whitebeard and was recuperating from twin lasers by Kizaru. Kizaru wins with high difficulty, like in a standard fight.


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## Magentabeard (Jun 13, 2014)

Funny how "no means to take him down" works both ways. Kizaru demonstrated that he can't get past Marco defense and the fight was a deadlock. Atleast Marco can kick Kizaru around and hope for Onigumo to cuff him.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jun 13, 2014)

Wait...Kizaru shoots Onigumo in the head, steals his cuffs, then nails Marco with them. Kizaru mid diff.


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## monkey d ace (Jun 13, 2014)

lel. kizaru wins as usual


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## Venom (Jun 13, 2014)

Kizaru gives Onigumo the Supernova treatment and mid or high diffs Marco


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jun 14, 2014)

Red Hood said:


> I never understood this argument. Yes Marco has a regen limit.. But we dont even know what it is.  Not to mention Kizaru should have a limit to how many atacks he can endure from Marco. I'm not saying that Marco would win or anything btw.



But we then draw from the other evidence available to us to supplement that. 

Law has recently confirmed what most sensible people believed, which was that using these sort of haxxed moves drains stamina fast. So not only does Marco have to worry about hitting his regeneration limit but also about fatiguing. Subsequently he may also lose via fatigue before losing because he hits his regeneration limit.

And for your last point all you have to do is compare the difference in attacks between the pair of them. Marco's kicks can be parried or just blocked with an arm whereas Kizaru's attacks actually kill. You saw that during the war where the only way Marco could negate them was to utilise his DF ability - without it there was a real risk he could have been killed. There's night and day between them and hence I don't see anything wrong in assuming that Kizaru wouldn't face that much of a challenge dealing with them. This is an inherent problem that Marco has whenever he has to face a certifiable top tier - a lack of any real threat. 

You could then suggest that Marco has a higher stamina capacity than Kizaru and that Kizaru may fall before he manages to reach Marco's fatigue or regeneration limit (which I personally find a laughable notion). However seeing a fellow Admiral last ten days against a fellow top tier should dissuade you from that notion. And that's compounded by the fact that with Marco's overall attacking capability being kind weak in comparison, Kizaru shouldn't be really pushed the same way Akainu and Aokiji were when they face one another.


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## GIORNO (Jun 14, 2014)

I don't think Marco would last as long as an Admiral in terms of endurance, much less produce the same feats required to take down an Admiral.

Kizaru mid diff.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jun 14, 2014)

Now that I have a laptop again...


King Itachi said:


> The only thing your notion proves is bad match-ups. Akainu/Aokiji are brawler types and were suitable opponents for WB. Kizaru, on the other hand, is too fast and can exploit WB's lack of defense that's granted by Logia intangibility and/or something akin to Marco's phoenix form.
> 
> Oda *never* intended to place Kizaru on the same level as his counterparts.


Kizaru isn't on the same level as his comrades, huh? Yet he was able to fire massive laser showers capable of catastrophic damage (and he was holding back at MF, just like his other Admirals), he trolled the WSM and aimed for Luffy's key at the same time, and clashed with three First Mates (one of whom was a living legend), and literally only received one scratch. Seems to me Kizaru is on their level.


King Itachi said:


> In their clash, Kizaru and Marco were shown to be equals.


They. Had. Two. Clashes. I can remember more of Kizaru trolling Luffy tbh and I'm not kidding either.


King Itachi said:


> That's ambition.
> His family kept him strong and moving forward; he even went to the lengths of invading MF to save a fellow nakama.


All Whitebeard was doing while he got older was sailing around with his crew, he was content to live his days out. Other examples include Garp, who actually turned down the promotion, all he wanted was to eat doughnuts and kick pirate ass, yet that didn't stop him from fighting the Pirate King in near death battles. Shanks and Rayleigh are just slackers and party lovers, yet Shanks is a candidate for WSM, and Rayleigh stalemated Kizaru even after twenty years of retirement. So yeah, using ambition is a piss poor way to determine power levels.


King Itachi said:


> And Whitebeard wasn't WSM at Marineford. He lost too much strength over time, and I believe the likes of Garp/Shanks were stronger.


Yeah, you "believe" that Garp and Shanks were stronger than Whitebeard...but oh wait, you can't prove it, can you?


monkey d ace said:


> lel. kizaru wins as usual


How many more Marco vs Kizaru threads do you think we'll have? 


Venom said:


> Kizaru gives Onigumo the Supernova treatment and mid or high diffs Marco


Nah, high diff is just right.


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## Orca (Jun 14, 2014)

Not that I disagree on Kizaru beating Marco but just to address a couble of things.



			
				Admiral Kizaru said:
			
		

> Law has recently confirmed what most sensible people believed, which was that using these sort of haxxed moves drains stamina fast. So not only does Marco have to worry about hitting his regeneration limit but also about fatiguing. Subsequently he may also lose via fatigue before losing because he hits regeneration limit



Law didn't say that these kind of hax abilities fatigue their df users, he said only his room fatigues him. The size of his room is directly related to his stamina.

Plus Marco doesn't activate his regen. It's an inherent ability of his zoan form. That's like saying Lucci fatigues by staying in his zoan form. The whole point of regen is to completely regenerate body cells. So fatigue doesn't matter. Otherwise regen would lose its meaning and there would also be no point of a having a limit. As Oda said, there is a limit for regen that we don't know of.

However fatigue in its most basic form applies to everyone. Kizaru is fatigued by using large chunks of energy with his pika pika fruit. Fujitora is fatigued by spending energy on using gravity.



			
				Admiral Kizaru said:
			
		

> And for your last point all you have to do is compare the difference in attacks between the pair of them. Marco's kicks can be parried or just blocked with an arm whereas Kizaru's attacks actually kill. You saw that during the war where the only way Marco could negate them was to utilise his DF ability - without it there was a real risk he could have been killed.



Ofcourse Marco uses his df ability. That's the same as saying Kizaru only has large AOE due to his df.. I mean duh. Ofcourse both of them are using their DFs. Marco's kicks can be blocked and parried whereas Kizarus attacks can be shrugged off by Marco like they were nothing. Now ofcourse there's a limit to his regen just like there's a limit for Kizaru's body as to how much abuse it can take and there's also a limit to how much energy Kizaru can drain in large scale AOE attacks.


Now whether Marco can push Kizaru to ten days or not is entirely speculation and I'm not trying to prove whether Marco can do it or not. I was just trying to address the arguments you were using against Marco.


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## GIORNO (Jun 14, 2014)

How strong do you guys think Onigumo is in the first place?


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jun 14, 2014)

нιѕσкα said:


> How strong do you guys think Onigumo is in the first place?


Around the general level of the M3 and Vergo imo, though he does seem to be one of the senior Vice Admirals. Either way, I think he won't be enough to turn the tide in Marco's favor, I don't see him surviving Yasakini no Magatama.


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## GIORNO (Jun 14, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Around the general level of the M3 and Vergo imo, though he does seem to be one of the senior Vice Admirals. Either way, I think he won't be enough to turn the tide in Marco's favor, I don't see him surviving Yasakini no Magatama.



And Momonga? IMO Momonga seems to be one of the stronger VAs. Then again, Onigumo is a Zoan so that might add to his strength. It's so hard to tell because MF didn't do them any justice.

Regardless, I agree, the VA doesn't turn the tide for shit. It would require all the VA's bar Garp to do anything serious.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jun 14, 2014)

нιѕσкα said:


> And Momonga? IMO Momonga seems to be one of the stronger VAs. Then again, Onigumo is a Zoan so that might add to his strength. It's so hard to tell because MF didn't do them any justice.
> 
> Regardless, I agree, the VA doesn't turn the tide for shit. It would require all the VA's bar Garp to do anything serious.


If anything, Kizaru might win even easier with the VA in this match, because as I mentioned earlier, he may just be able to steal Onigumo's cuffs and nail Marco with them.


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## GIORNO (Jun 14, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> If anything, Kizaru might win even easier with the VA in this match, because as I mentioned earlier, he may just be able to steal Onigumo's cuffs and nail Marco with them.



Haha, he would kick them at the speed of light so they wouldn't even affect him then he slaps Marco to death.


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## trance (Jun 14, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Law didn't say that these kind of hax abilities fatigue their df users, he said only his room fatigues him. The size of his room is directly related to his stamina.





			
				cnet said:
			
		

> Law: *My ability takes a hefty toll on my stamina the more I use it*...!! // I need to stay at my best in preparation for the way back. / You get it?! // We have to save every ounce of strength we can!!! // This is Doflamingo we're dealing with...!!!



He doesn't just say "Room" drains his stamina, he means his _entire_ DF ability. 

Also, in a relatively weakened state from holding off Issho and Doffy for an extended period of time (which would require constant use of his abilities), he was able to create a "Room" that was significant fraction of the size of Green Bit and later, still had enough energy left to stall Doffy for a good length of time.


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## Kaiser (Jun 15, 2014)

I don't see Onigumo making a difference, but Kizaru is only barely stronger than Marco in my book if any. And i agree with people thinking he is weaker than Aokiji and Akainu. 

They are the ones who have been shown to be marine rivals since their early days, they are the one who were proposed to be fleet admiral from either sides, they are the one who fought close to equal during a 10days battle, they are the ones who fought a healthier version of WB when Kizaru only took on a WB already close to death  

Aokiji one-shoted Jozu the moment he dropped his guard. Even with Onigumo's help, Kizaru couldn't do as such to Marco despite having plenty of free-shots due to Marco not even paying attention to him


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## trance (Jun 15, 2014)

Blake said:


> They are the ones who have been shown to be marine rivals since their early days, they are the one who were proposed to be fleet admiral from either sides, they are the one who fought close to equal during a 10days battle, they are the ones who fought a healthier version of WB *when Kizaru only took on a WB already close to death*



And Kizaru was getting the better of him too. He restrained his bisento and shot a laser through him.


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

Only barely str.... What? Are you for real?


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## Kaiser (Jun 15, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> And Kizaru was getting the better of him too. He restrained his bisento and shot a laser through him.


Sure but the portrayal is there


нιѕσкα said:


> Only barely str.... What? Are you for real?


I believe so, can you prove otherwise? In their exchanges, Marco even got the better of him if anything. Kizaru couldn't phase him when Marco sent him flying and requested the marines to watch out for his aerial attacks. 

Even while dropping his guard and not paying attention to him, restrained on sea stones by one of his collegues, he still couldn't put him down despite having plenty of free-shots. 

It's not underestimating Kizaru either considering Marco is strong in his own right. We're talking about someone who was put in the same breath with other yonkou. If anything, it's you people who are severly underestimating Marco


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 15, 2014)

Here's how this fight goes; Kizaru obliterates Onigumo in a short amount of time without having to keep him around to make his presence become bothersome if Marco will fight alongside onigumo as well, and promptly divers his attention towards Marco after onigumo gets defeated. Kizaru still beats marco with high difficulty though.


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## trance (Jun 15, 2014)

Blake said:


> Sure but the portrayal is there



Slightly weaker, yes but he's still on par with them. Plus, Marco's regeneration grants him the best defense shown so far. Him not getting through it in their short fight is no mark against Kizaru. Put Sakazuki in the same situation and I'm sure he'd have approximately the same amount of difficuly.


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## convict (Jun 15, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> You could then suggest that Marco has a higher stamina capacity than Kizaru and that Kizaru may fall before he manages to reach Marco's fatigue or regeneration limit (which I personally find a laughable notion). *However seeing a fellow Admiral last ten days against a fellow top tier should dissuade you from that notion.* And that's compounded by the fact that with Marco's overall attacking capability being kind weak in comparison, Kizaru shouldn't be really pushed the same way Akainu and Aokiji were when they face one another.



Jinbei and rookie Ace lasted 5 days against each other. It is definitely within the realm of possibility that Marco who is far more capable than either can last significantly more than that in a high level fight as well.


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## Orca (Jun 15, 2014)

Starkiller said:
			
		

> He doesn't just say "Room" drains his stamina, he means his entire DF ability.



When I said "only his room", I'm referring to his df ability. After all Room is the very basis of his ability.



			
				Starkiller said:
			
		

> Also, in a relatively weakened state from holding off Issho and Doffy for an extended period of time (which would require constant use of his abilities), he was able to create a "Room" that was significant fraction of the size of Green Bit and later, still had enough energy left to stall Doffy for a good length of time.



Ofcourse. This doesn't contradict anything that I said.


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## Urouge (Jun 15, 2014)

Blake said:


> I don't see Onigumo making a difference, but Kizaru is only barely stronger than Marco in my book if any. And i agree with people thinking he is weaker than Aokiji and Akainu.
> 
> They are the ones who have been shown to be marine rivals since their early days, they are the one who were proposed to be fleet admiral from either sides, they are the one who fought close to equal during a 10days battle, they are the ones who fought a healthier version of WB when Kizaru only took on a WB already close to death
> 
> Aokiji one-shoted Jozu the moment he dropped his guard. Even with Onigumo's help, Kizaru couldn't do as such to Marco despite having plenty of free-shots due to Marco not even paying attention to him



This post is bull mate. Aokiji was never akainu rival. Oda said in an interview for film z that kiz and akainu joined at the same time and they were considered to be monsters. Nothing indicates that kizaru suddenly became weaker than aokiji. Just because he didn't want to be fa doesn't mean that he's weaker than them otherwise we might aswell say that sengoku is stronger than garp because he became fa while he stayed as a va

You also can't compare defensive df like jozu to a freaking regen df. No matter who you are you cannot beat marco in one or two clashes you need to fight him for a while because his regen is a bitch and he's incredibly fast aswell. You guys are downplaying kizaru because he wasn't able to beat him in a couple of minutes. 

About the stamina and df usage we saw that marco was actually pretty tired at the end of the war so his regen must take a toll on him which could be what oda was talking about when he said that it has a limit. The limit must be Marcos stamina


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## Orca (Jun 15, 2014)

> About the stamina and df usage we saw that marco was actually pretty tired at the end of the war so his regen must take a toll on him which could be what oda was talking about when he said that it has a limit. The limit must be Marcos stamina



The guy was running around with two holes in his chest with seastone cuffs on. That's why he was tired. Don't think the regen itself makes him tired.


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## Urouge (Jun 15, 2014)

And? After getting the cuffs off he regened so I don't see how it matters. It's the most logical answer. His regen would be way too haxx if it didn't drain his stamina.


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## Orca (Jun 15, 2014)

That's why he has a limit. How does a person regenerate and still be tired? That makes no sense.


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

Luffee said:


> That's why he has a limit. How does a person regenerate and still be tired? That makes no sense.



Well his ability eventually starts to decrease which most likely means he regenerates at a slower rate as he gets more fatigued. He was definitely fatigued at the end of MF, but that could also be due to the mental stress of losing two of his closest friends.

I know what you mean, it's kind of hard to explain though.


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## Orca (Jun 15, 2014)

> Well his ability eventually starts to decrease which most likely means he regenerates at a slower rate as he gets more fatigued. He was definitely fatigued at the end of MF, but that could also be due to the mental stress of losing two of his closest friends.



This makes sense. If I remember correctly Marco was in bandages after the war. So we do know he didn't regenerate completely during the war. I was arguing that ability to regen itself shouldn't make him tired. But what you're saying makes sense. I'd say as he draws closer to his limit, his regeneration ability slows down. Though it's hard to say at this point.


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

Luffee said:


> This makes sense. If I remember correctly Marco was in bandages after the war. So we do know he didn't regenerate completely during the war. I was arguing that ability to regen itself shouldn't make him tired. But what you're saying makes sense. I'd say as he draws closer to his limit, his regeneration ability slows down. Though it's hard to say at this point.



Well when he's using it, he shouldn't become tired. But when he's not actively using the Blue Flames (when he was in bandages) he would/should naturally become a bit fatigued, at least that's how I see it. If he was constantly using his ability, he wouldn't be fatigued (while the BFs are active), over time his ability would decrease and slow down to a point where he's not regenerating as fast and then once he stops using his ability is when he'd become really fatigued. 

He has an extended level of endurance whilst using his ability, but when not using it he's just like anybody else.

This is at least how I see it, I could be wrong though.


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## Shanks (Jun 15, 2014)

You guys (and alot of people) generally forgot that Marco lost a tone of blood while being cuff in seastones. While we do not know if he was able to regen his blood or not, I am a big believer that it contributed to him being weaken.


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

Why wouldn't he able to regenerate blood if he can regenerate holes in his body?


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## Shanks (Jun 15, 2014)

Maybe he could regen blood, but not lost of stamina due to excess lost of blood? Got to wait and get more info.


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

Yeah, it's hard to tell TBH.


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## GrizzlyClaws (Jun 15, 2014)

Oda said he will pick up on Marco and his fruit later, so we gotta wait for it.

I'm sure everything will be explained in time.

Till then, i'm in the camp of people who think the blood loss caused by the holes in his chest for a longer and continuous period of time slowed him down as him regenerating the holes themselves didn't regenerate the lost blood. And this is not even accounting for the stress sea stone cuffs put on the body of a devil fruit user, especially if said devil fruit user is still trying to fight despite the sea stone cuffs on his hands plus several big holes in his chest.


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## trance (Jun 16, 2014)

Luffee said:


> When I said "only his room", I'm referring to his df ability. After all Room is the very basis of his ability.



"Counter Shock". :ignoramus


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## Ether (Jun 17, 2014)

Going with Kizaru on the low end of high diff.

He can pretty much low diff Onigumo with his kicks, lasers, or slice him in half with Ama no murakumo.

Afterwards, Marco goes down after the continuous bombarding of Kizaru's attacks.

He temporarily blinds Marco with his Amaterasu. 

Then he proceeds to spam lasers, kicks, Sword Slices, and Yasakani no Magatama in any timely fashion.

Marco's regen will eventually be lost due to fatigue. Then, he dies.

Kizaru can block Marco's attacks with his sword or dodge them with his Yata no Kagami.


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## Esdese (Jun 17, 2014)

Luffee said:


> The guy was running around with two holes in his chest with seastone cuffs on. That's why he was tired. Don't think the regen itself makes him tired.



using your devil fruit takes stamina, but in marco's case it's not so straight forward. I Believe even if he does regenerate stamina the cost of using his DF outweighs what he regenerates back


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## Slenderman (Jun 17, 2014)

Onigumo solos them both with the almighty seastone cuffs.


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## GIORNO (Jun 18, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> "Counter Shock". :ignoramus



He's even used Shambles outside of Room too. And Mes.


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 18, 2014)

Luffee said:


> This makes sense. If I remember correctly Marco was in bandages after the war. So we do know he didn't regenerate completely during the war. I was arguing that ability to regen itself shouldn't make him tired. But what you're saying makes sense. I'd say as he draws closer to his limit, his regeneration ability slows down. Though it's hard to say at this point.



Yeah, perhaps he can only regenerate while the injuries to which he received were during him being in his "pheonix mode" I mean he got injured without the protection of his Devil fruit as its powers were nullified by the sea stone shackles. Therefore his "Human" form that he gets injured in is independent to his Phoenix form when it comes to sustaining injury and being able to regenerate from which point on at which mode. Perhaps his Regeneration has a limit but who knows.


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## StrawHat4Life (Jun 20, 2014)

If anyone has enough firepower to push Marco's regen to the limit it should be Kizaru. I'm not really sure what Onigumo would bring to the table but something tells me he wouldn't be a mere non factor. He should be able to provide some timely assists before getting taken out, but still not enough to tip the scales. Kizaru with very high difficulty.


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