# British Muslim Strangles Daughter in "Honor Killing"



## Megaharrison (Jun 12, 2007)

> LONDON - A father who ordered his daughter brutally slain for falling in love with the wrong man in a so-called ?honor killing? was found guilty of murder on Monday.
> 
> Banaz Mahmod, 20, was strangled with a boot lace, stuffed into a suitcase and buried in a back garden.
> 
> ...





Well now that's just wrong.


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## Ennoea (Jun 12, 2007)

I win ten dollars. I bet that you would be the one to post this. Ahh Mega Harrison your Islamaphobia is getting so predictable. 

Shame so many other people get strangled daily for many other reasons but of course being Muslim just changes everything!!! The guy was a psycho religious nut nothing else. Stop spinning it MH.


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## Toad Hermit (Jun 12, 2007)

wtf first it was due to religious reasons.. now its country reasons what next honor killing because your husband did not have a sprinkled penis?


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## T4R0K (Jun 12, 2007)

CrimemasterGogo, I wouldn't accuse MH of stuff. He just brings up what most of the muslim communauty keeps silent instead of reacting...

There are no such things as "Honor killings". They are just fucking plain killings. And they need to be stopped. 

His honor is even more stained now. I hope the prison makes him even lower (gay-rape him, please. His family will then have to kill him once out)


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## Hwon (Jun 12, 2007)

CrimemasterGogo said:


> I win ten dollars. I bet that you would be the one to post this. Ahh Mega Harrison your Islamaphobia is getting so predictable.
> 
> Shame so many other people get strangled daily for many other reasons but of course being Muslim just changes everything!!! The guy was a psycho religious nut nothing else. Stop spinning it MH.



Yeah he is a nut as is his brother and the other 5 guys that helped kill her.  Not to mention other people who have commited 100 some possible honor killings in that part of the world as well.  What is sad is that it is not that rare and that it is either acceptable or ignored by many muslim communities.  What makes it even more sad is that in most cases these are good people who are just raised to believe this crap.


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## Pilaf (Jun 12, 2007)

CrimemasterGogo said:


> I win ten dollars. I bet that you would be the one to post this. Ahh Mega Harrison your Islamaphobia is getting so predictable.
> 
> Shame so many other people get strangled daily for many other reasons but of course being Muslim just changes everything!!! The guy was a psycho religious nut nothing else. Stop spinning it MH.



 Where's the spin? He posted an article and said what happened was wrong.


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## Megaharrison (Jun 12, 2007)

Pilaf said:


> Where's the spin? He posted an article and said what happened was wrong.



Perhaps the spin was saying it was wrong? 

But yes, the man was a British Muslim who was involved in the strangulation of his daughter over what has been described as an honor killing. I don't see the spin in what I said looking at that.


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## Wing-Zero (Jun 12, 2007)

The man was crazy, and him being Muslim doesn't really have anything to do with it in my opinion.


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## wiplok (Jun 12, 2007)

well, hurray for customs \o/


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## Yellow (Jun 12, 2007)

Well I guess marrying a muslim woman is one more thing to cross of my list of things to do.

Seriously that's fucked up. He killed his own daughter for diverging from their culture. That's really messed up.


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Jun 12, 2007)

I want to date with a muslim girl. Could i have problems ?


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## Giovanni Rild (Jun 12, 2007)

This is going to cause more trouble for moderate Muslims.


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## Valentine ♥ (Jun 12, 2007)

CrimemasterGogo said:


> I win ten dollars. I bet that you would be the one to post this. Ahh Mega Harrison your Islamaphobia is getting so predictable.
> 
> Shame so many other people get strangled daily for many other reasons but of course being Muslim just changes everything!!! The guy was a psycho religious nut nothing else. Stop spinning it MH.


Well, you make sense...

Your siggys kute by the way...


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## Amaretti (Jun 12, 2007)

Nothing irritates me more than people who move to a foreign country, take advantage of the all the benefits and stability, and then flout the laws and carry on acting like they only have to answer to sharia.

Killing your children for honor? Yeah... British law enforcement doesn't overlook shit like that...


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## mislead (Jun 12, 2007)

Damn them undercover Mossad agents.


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## Goom (Jun 12, 2007)

Wow why does him being Muslim have anything to do with the killing.  This thread could have easily been "Man strangles daughter for "Honor Killings" " btw arranged marriage is not really preached in Islam its more of a cultural thing.  I would know because im Indian and the culture there is arranged marriage.  

Anyhow this man was crazy like any other psycho killer.  He deserves a life sentence in jail or worse.


Also you should be fine with going out with a Muslim girl.  Theres always crazy people everywhere, Muslim girls are just as available and their families are as normal as any family.


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## Edo (Jun 12, 2007)

^^ cause it is a tradition present among muslims (the honor killing) 
according to Islamic law if a person has a sexual affair outside marriage then death is their penalty...for unmarried people they are wiped like 70 times I think!!
( I am sure muslims of this forum can fill in the details)

however in this case they killed her because she left a husband who abused her...may be she slept with that other guy, that would be a reason to kill her for honor!!


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## Giovanni Rild (Jun 12, 2007)

Edo said:


> ^^ cause it is a tradition present among muslims (the honor killing)
> according to Islamic law if a person has a sexual affair outside marriage then death is their penalty...for unmarried people they are wiped like 70 times I think!!
> ( I am sure muslims of this forum can fill in the details)
> 
> however in this case they killed her because she left a husband who abused her...may be she slept with that other guy, that would be a reason to kill her for honor!!




Radical Muslims. Moderates do not kill their children, or anybody else for that matter.


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## Adonis (Jun 12, 2007)

I love how a culture can't be called crazy or inane yet a person enacting it can be...


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## Jin-E (Jun 12, 2007)

I guess the supposed "honor" of the family and their reputation means more than individual rights for many people originating from the Middle Eastern countries.

There needs to be support programs for such women who have been frozen out and threatened by her family or social network. If her life is in danger one should even consider resettle them somewhere else with a new identity.


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## Giovanni Rild (Jun 12, 2007)

TheDarkAdonis45 said:


> I love how a culture can't be called crazy or inane yet a person enacting it can be...



Those guys are radical. I love how you militant atheists toss the radicals and the innocents moderates in the same boat.


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## Edo (Jun 12, 2007)

Rild The Hero said:


> Radical Muslims. Moderates do not kill their children, or anybody else for that matter.



you will be surprised....(talking from personal experience)

that is not the rule of course but it does happen.


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## Giovanni Rild (Jun 12, 2007)

Edo said:


> you will be surprised....(talking from personal experience)
> 
> that is not the rule of course but it does happen.



Explain before you make such a claim. If someone kills in the name of their religion, then they are not moderates.
I expect the nitpick crew to be posting soon.


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## Adonis (Jun 12, 2007)

Rild The Hero said:


> Those guys are radical. I love how you militant atheists toss the radicals and the innocents moderates in the same boat.





> Originally Posted by TheDarkAdonis45  View Post
> I love how a *culture* can't be called crazy or inane yet a person enacting it can be...



I'm no English professor but I don't think culture is synonymous with religion.

Here's food for thought, though: if a person is negatively stigmatized as a radical for fully and literally exercising their religious belief, what does that say about the religion.



Religion: Best Taken in Small Doses, lol!


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## Amaretti (Jun 12, 2007)

Rild The Hero said:


> Those guys are radical. I love how *you militant atheists *toss the radicals and the innocents moderates in the same boat.



Could you just... chill it with the attitude? Don't make it personal.

Also, DA, don't make it worse.


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## mislead (Jun 12, 2007)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IblzBerSFk[/YOUTUBE]

*Ph34r the militant atheists!*​


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## Amaretti (Jun 12, 2007)

Keep it up and you guys get banned.


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## Giovanni Rild (Jun 12, 2007)

Amaretti said:


> Keep it up and you guys get banned.



Why don't you ban that video that misled posted, you reject.


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## Adonis (Jun 12, 2007)

Alright, alright, alright! Don't have a cow, Amaretti.

My point is I don't see how people are bullshitting that his being muslim is irrelevant. Honor killings is part of his culture and had he not been muslim, I doubt he would have carried out an honor killing in the name of his culture/religion. Wouldn't really enforce such cultural standards if he weren't of that culture, now would he?

It's rich how one has to be moderate in following his religion in order not to be a raving lunatic.


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## mislead (Jun 12, 2007)

Why would he delete my video? 

Have you even watched it? It has Jesus owning atheists, so I don't see where the problem lies.


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## Giovanni Rild (Jun 12, 2007)

mislead said:


> Why would he delete my video?
> 
> Have you even watched it? It has Jesus owning atheists, so I don't see where the problem lies.



It's off-topic an offensive and Amaretti is too biased and drunk off of modpower to do a damn thing


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## mislead (Jun 12, 2007)

And it's totally me who brought up militant atheism as a way to belittle another poster's opinions... Also, do you seriously find that video offensive? Sorry for asking, but the idea seems so utterly absurd to me, that I have trouble believing it. Ah well, I'm out of this little quarrel. If Amaretti chooses to delete that little joke, then so be it, I won't cry my eyes out because of it.

On topic:
It's not really like it's the religion itself that brings forth such conduct, it's a matter of social development. I recall similar cases popping up in traditional Hindu families, and possibly Chinese ones too. And if we fall back a few hundred years, I'm sure similar practices could be found in Christian families.

Yes, religion is part of one's cultural background, but that doesn't necessarily mean it should take all of the blame for happenings like these.


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## Adonis (Jun 12, 2007)

mislead said:


> On topic:
> It's not really like it's the religion itself that brings forth such conduct, it's a matter of social development. I recall similar cases popping up in traditional Hindu families, and possibly Chinese ones too. And if we fall back a few hundred years, I'm sure similar practices could be found in Christian families.
> 
> Yes, religion is part of one's cultural background, but that doesn't necessarily mean it should take all of the blame for happenings like these.



Absolving it completely is foolish, too.

Let's shift my point away from religion (Rild brought it there, btw) and back towards culture. Okay, his culture is stupid and outdated. To claim the guy was simply "psycho" and his being of that culture had nothing to do with it is ridiculous. I'm no psychiatrist but I doubt he would've been inclined to enforce honor killings had he not been raised into that culture that enforced and encouraged them. 

I don't see white Americans going, "Hey, you know what?! Suzy marrying Jack rather than that Bill guy I set her up with pisses me off! Not to mention she's dressing like a harlot with that hairspray and bubble gum lipstick! I must restore my family's honor and kill her!" When you do see that, though, contact me.


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## Ram (Jun 12, 2007)

It's not the first I've heard of this particular incident and it definitely won't be the last. What do you expect from such a backwards culture?


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## Pimp of Pimps (Jun 12, 2007)

*God, this is messed up. 

I can tell you all now that it's no so much the fact that they were Muslim, but where there were from. Look at India. There are a lot of nice civilized places over there. But sadly, there are also villages that would gladly do something like this. Some other places in other countries would bury their young alive for stuff like this. *


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## Fojos (Jun 12, 2007)

Hwon said:


> What makes it even more sad is that in most cases these are good people who are just raised to believe this crap.



Don't be an idiot. If they believe it in the first place they are NOT good people.


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## Giovanni Rild (Jun 12, 2007)

TheDarkAdonis45 said:


> Absolving it completely is foolish, too.
> 
> Let's shift my point away from religion (Rild brought it there, btw) and back towards culture. Okay, his culture is stupid and outdated. To claim the guy was simply "psycho" and his being of that culture had nothing to do with it is ridiculous. I'm no psychiatrist but I doubt he would've been inclined to enforce honor killings had he not been raised into that culture that enforced and encouraged them.
> 
> I don't see white Americans going, "Hey, you know what?! Suzy marrying Jack rather than that Bill guy I set her up with pisses me off! Not to mention she's dressing like a harlot with that hairspray and bubble gum lipstick! I must restore my family's honor and kill her!" When you do see that, though, contact me.



That's bigotry. You claim call his culture is stupid and outdated. People like you give people like him the reason to do what he does.

Separate the maniacs from the good people who want to left alone from the likes of you.

Bigotry, hate,  and intolerance only begets more bigotry, hate, and intolerance.


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## Fojos (Jun 12, 2007)

Rild The Hero said:


> Those guys are radical. I love how you militant atheists toss the radicals and the innocents moderates in the same boat.



I don't see radical people from other cultures who kill their own family because they are going to marry someone the family doesn't like. It may happen, but not even nearly as often.

Doesn't that mean it has something to do with the religion and the culture?


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## Pimp of Pimps (Jun 12, 2007)

*It's not because their Muslim. The majority of this stuff happens in cut off villages. they just use the religion as an excuse. *


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## Adonis (Jun 12, 2007)

Rild The Hero said:


> That's bigotry. You claim call his culture is stupid and outdated. People like you give people like him the reason to do what he does.
> 
> Separate the maniacs from the good people who want to left alone from the likes of you.
> 
> Bigotry, hate,  and intolerance only begets more bigotry, hate, and intolerance.



What am I supposed to think about a culture when the good people are the ones who minimally or inactively follow it and the loons are the ones who do? Sorry if my tolerance doesn't stretch to include honor killings.


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## Giovanni Rild (Jun 12, 2007)

TheDarkAdonis45 said:


> What am I supposed to think about a culture when the good people are the ones who minimally or inactively follow it and the loons are the ones who do? Sorry if my tolerance doesn't stretch to include honor killings.



Are you saying All Muslims support honor killings?


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## Pimp of Pimps (Jun 12, 2007)

*Your confusing culture and religion.

The good Muslims are the ones who pray 5 times a day or more, who read the Quran a lot, who try and teach others. Not the ones who kill their daughters because they expressed free will. *


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## Adonis (Jun 12, 2007)

Rild The Hero said:


> Are you saying All Muslims support honor killings?



No, I'm talking about the ones that do.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Jun 12, 2007)

*seems I misunderstood you. *


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## Dimezanime88 (Jun 12, 2007)

Another honor killing this year in the media? At least this time the right person is facing justice.


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## dummy plug (Jun 12, 2007)

unfortunately, ever since i posted here on the NF thread, news like this is pretty common...whats wrong with the world???


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## Yakushi Kabuto (Jun 12, 2007)

Ugh, but at least it is nice to know that he was found guilty for such a crime.


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## HyperKnuckles22 (Jun 12, 2007)

Give me another reason why Islam is a joke and cannot survive beyond the    20th century. lets hope this ass gets executed.


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## Giovanni Rild (Jun 12, 2007)

HyperKnuckles22 said:


> Give me another reason why Islam is a joke and cannot survive beyond the    20th century. lets hope this ass gets executed.



You can't judge a whole religion's actions on the actions of a few.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Jun 12, 2007)

HyperKnuckles22 said:


> Give me another reason why Islam is a joke and cannot survive beyond the    20th century. lets hope this ass gets executed.



*I meant to neg you. You got lucky. *


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## HyperKnuckles22 (Jun 12, 2007)

Rild The Hero said:


> You can't judge a whole religion's actions on the actions of a few.



Yes, i can. stuff like this happens all the time in the middle east, and its basically accepted over there.


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## Giovanni Rild (Jun 12, 2007)

Polygon said:


> *I meant to neg you. You got lucky. *



I already negged the bigot. My rep power decreased. You negged me?


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## Pimp of Pimps (Jun 12, 2007)

Rild The Hero said:


> I already negged the bigot. My rep power decreased. You negged me?



*I was talking to hyperknuckles. 
*


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## Giovanni Rild (Jun 12, 2007)

Polygon said:


> *I was talking to hyperknuckles.
> *



I was asking if by mistake?


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## HyperKnuckles22 (Jun 12, 2007)

Rild The Hero said:


> I already negged the bigot. My rep power decreased. You negged me?



wow, so im a bigot for attacking outdated practices? this is so hilarious i might die of hysteria. well then children, why dont we send our daughters to the middle east to be "corrected?"


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## Pimp of Pimps (Jun 12, 2007)

Rild The Hero said:


> I was asking if by mistake?





*I wanted to neg hyper, but accidentally possed him instead. *


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## Amaretti (Jun 12, 2007)

HyperKnuckles22 said:


> Give me another reason why Islam is a joke and cannot survive beyond the    20th century. lets hope this ass gets executed.



It seems to be surviving just fine and we are well beyond the 20th Century now.  Are you familiar with moderate Islam? It's quite a peaceful religion, like Christianity. Extremism is never representative of the whole, part of the reason why it is called 'extremism'.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Jun 12, 2007)

*I agree that some parts of the Middle East can be quite violent and practice disgusting things, but those kinds of things are around the entire world. 

And I've been to the ME on multiple occasions so I would know. *


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## Giovanni Rild (Jun 12, 2007)

HyperKnuckles22 said:


> wow, so im a bigot for attacking outdated practices? this is so hilarious i might die of hysteria. well then children, why dont we send our daughters to the middle east to be "corrected?"



Freedom of Speech. You are a bigot for being intolerant. What if someone attacked you for your skin color and called your race "Outdated"


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## Thanos (Jun 12, 2007)

Amaretti said:


> Nothing irritates me more than people who move to a foreign country, take advantage of the all the benefits and stability, and then flout the laws and carry on acting like they only have to answer to sharia.
> 
> Killing your children for honor? Yeah... British law enforcement doesn't overlook shit like that...



took the words right out of my mouth. Hearing about these things anger me greatly. It was just recently that news surfaced of a girl being stoned to death in Iraqi Kurdistan, by a crowd including relatives and security forces, who did nothing to stop it. 

Boggles the mind, I just cant understand it.


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## Thanos (Jun 13, 2007)

Rild The Hero said:


> Freedom of Speech. You are a bigot for being intolerant. What if someone attacked you for your skin color and called your race "Outdated"



Thats completely different. Skin color does not have to determine how one acts, but if someone acts upon the rules of his religion, then it is indeed open for judgment. 

I honestly dont care about being intolerant, call me a bigot if you wish. There are some practices that just don't belong in the civilized world, "honor killing" is one of them. 

These actions not only affect non muslims, but moderate muslims as well. Many people are losing their patience in terms of regarding Islam as a peaceful religion.


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## Giovanni Rild (Jun 13, 2007)

Thanos said:


> Thats completely different. Skin color does not have to determine how one acts, but if someone acts upon the rules of his religion, then it is indeed open for judgment.
> 
> I honestly dont care about being intolerant, call me a bigot if you wish. There are some practices that just don't belong in the civilized world, "honor killing" is one of them.
> 
> These actions not only affect non muslims, but moderate muslims as well. Many people are losing their patience in terms of regarding Islam as a peaceful religion.



Only radicals do this shit so why try to rope them all in it?


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## Immortal Flame (Jun 13, 2007)

If that's customary to them, then let 'em be if that's the case. Still, I find some practices mind boggling. Oh well...........


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## Altron (Jun 13, 2007)

this reminds of the girl being stoned to death by her community for falling in love with a sunni. This is such bullshit and the girl did not deserve to die just for following her heart. So it is a lie when parents say "follow your heart" lol! This is so sad though.


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## Freiza (Jun 13, 2007)

> *becoming too Westernized and falling in love* with a man who didn?t come from their Iraqi village.


happens all the time, i mean oh rly?


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## HyperKnuckles22 (Jun 13, 2007)

Rild The Hero said:


> Freedom of Speech. You are a bigot for being intolerant. What if someone attacked you for your skin color and called your race "Outdated"



I never attacked the arab race, only the religion, and i never said the race was "outdated."  You seem to be more outraged at me than you do at the ass who murdered his own daughter. The next time something like this happens, we should all hold hands and sing " All we need is love".


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## Giovanni Rild (Jun 13, 2007)

HyperKnuckles22 said:


> I never attacked the arab race, only the religion, and i never said the race was "outdated."  You seem to be more outraged at me than you do at the ass who murdered his own daughter. The next time something like this happens, we should all hold hands and sing " All we need is love".



Things like this just give people a reason to oppress Muslims that didn't do anything. And of course I'm pissed that this happened.


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## sadated_peon (Jun 13, 2007)

This isn't a Muslim thing, it is a cultural thing. 

There is a specific culture in certain parts of the middle east which accept "honor killings". It is not just Muslims, there are other religion that have the same practice. 

It is not an acceptable practice, and should be rooted out wherever it is found. 

I am glad that this man is being tried for the crime, but why didn't the community find this man before it came to this. The article said he beat his wife and children, threatened their lives, etc. 

How did this go unnoticed? why did this go unchecked?

He lived in a Muslim community, so I ask the Muslims here would you have said nothing? would you have done nothing? would you have let it come to this?


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## Tsukimaru (Jun 13, 2007)

Rild The Hero said:


> Only radicals do this shit so why try to rope them all in it?



QFT.



HyperKnuckles22 said:


> wow, so im a bigot for attacking outdated practices? this is so hilarious i might die of hysteria. well then children, why dont we send our daughters to the middle east to be "corrected?"



No, you're a bigot because you made an incredibly ignorant generalization about an entire religion based upon the actions of a psychopath.


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## Vandal Savage (Jun 13, 2007)

This is very sad but I am glad that the culprit will be dealt with. I hope the extrememists realize that the British are not going to put up with shit like this.


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## HyperKnuckles22 (Jun 13, 2007)

Tsukimaru said:


> QFT.
> 
> 
> 
> No, you're a bigot because you made an incredibly ignorant generalization about an entire religion based upon the actions of a psychopath.



Tell me then, why does Osama bin laden have millions of admirers in the middle east? and no, i am not ignorant, i have read the Koran, and its really no more savage or vicious than the bible. and there are pretty twisted ideas in the bible too.
  Does anyone remember some time ago when that girl was stoned to death because of a boy she liked? even if its a cultural thing, millions of muslims acept these practices.  i wouldnt really care what muslims believe or practice, so long as they stop opressing women.


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## Giovanni Rild (Jun 13, 2007)

HyperKnuckles22 said:


> Tell me then, why does Osama bin laden have millions of admirers in the middle east? and no, i am not ignorant, i have read the Koran, and its really no more savage or vicious than the bible. and there are pretty twisted ideas in the bible too.
> Does anyone remember some time ago when that girl was stoned to death because of a boy she liked? even if its a cultural thing, millions of muslims acept these practices.  i wouldnt really care what muslims believe or practice, so long as they stop opressing women.



Now you have gone too far. Radicals are in the minority. The majority are peaceful, law abiding people.


And that girl was a part of the Yezidi religion.



Read before you open your mouth. I'm tired of putting my foot in your ass.


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## That NOS Guy (Jun 13, 2007)

On the exact converse, millions of Muslims don't embrace the practice. I'll be the last person in the world to defend Islam, but honor killings are not reinforced by Koranic verse or the Sunnah to the best of my knowledge.

It could be argued that the importance attached to women remaining chaste and daughters being submissive is what allows this cultural relics to function, but that's an entirely different manner.


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## HyperKnuckles22 (Jun 13, 2007)

Rild The Hero said:


> Now you have gone too far. Radicals are in the minority. The majority are peaceful, law abiding people.
> 
> 
> And that girl was a part of the Yezidi religion.
> ...


 
And frankly, im tired of you jumping my ass. you would probably sooner see me burnt at the stake than speaking my mind.

  true a majority of people may be peaceful, but dont say radicals are a minority, because if they were, terrorists and Alqaeda wouldnt be much of a problem. and one more thing. are you a muslim, because i cant see any other reason why you'd even care.


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## Giovanni Rild (Jun 13, 2007)

HyperKnuckles22 said:


> And frankly, im tired of you jumping my ass. you would probably sooner see me burnt at the stake than speaking my mind.
> 
> *true a majority of people may be peaceful, but dont say radicals are a minority,* because if they were, terrorists and Alqaeda wouldnt be much of a problem. and one more thing. are you a muslim, because i cant see any other reason why you'd even care.



Fallacy: Circumstantial Ad Hominem. I'm not a Muslim. I think that no one should one discriminated against.

I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't speak out against you. And if the majority is peaceful then the radicals are the minority since they are not peaceful.


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## Tsukimaru (Jun 13, 2007)

HyperKnuckles22 said:


> Tell me then, why does Osama bin laden have millions of admirers in the middle east? and no, i am not ignorant, i have read the Koran, and its really no more savage or vicious than the bible. and there are pretty twisted ideas in the bible too.



He has "millions" of admirers (quotation because of possible inacuracy; I don't know the actual number, and I'm not sure you do either) because said "millions" of people are making similar ignorant generalizations about Americans over the actions of a few psychopaths. Moreover, there are an estimated 1.2 billion Muslims worldwide, according to CAIR. Even if the number that supported him was large, it's definitely a tiny fraction of the entire Muslim population, so your generalization is still very inaccurate.

By the way, are you familiar with bin Laden's speech after the 9/11 attacks? I'll be happy to quote it if you'd like, but I can assure you that he didn't say anything along the lines of "I DID IT BECAUSE THE QUR'AN TOLD ME TO, LOL", and it might give you insight in to why said Muslims who support bin Laden make those inaccurate generalizations about Americans in the first place.


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## HyperKnuckles22 (Jun 13, 2007)

Rild The Hero said:


> Fallacy: Circumstantial Ad Hominem. I'm not a Muslim. I think that no one should one discriminated against.
> 
> I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't speak out against you. And if the majority is peaceful then the radicals are the minority since they are not peaceful.



i dont think anyone should be disraminated against either, im just tired of putting up with these BS Opressions.


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## HyperKnuckles22 (Jun 13, 2007)

Tsukimaru said:


> He has "millions" of admirers (quotation because of possible inacuracy; I don't know the actual number, and I'm not sure you do either) because said "millions" of people are making similar ignorant generalizations about Americans over the actions of a few psychopaths. Moreover, there are an estimated 1.2 billion Muslims worldwide, according to CAIR. Even if the number that supported him was large, it's definitely a tiny fraction of the entire Muslim population, so your generalization is still very inaccurate.
> 
> By the way, are you familiar with bin Laden's speech after the 9/11 attacks? I'll be happy to quote it if you'd like, but I can assure you that he didn't say anything along the lines of "I DID IT BECAUSE THE QUR'AN TOLD ME TO, LOL", and it might give you insight in to why said Muslims who support bin Laden make those inaccurate generalizations about Americans in the first place.



I never said bin laden took responsibility from the Koran.  a poll taken in palenstine some years back basically said that 70% of palenstinians approve of Bin laden.


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## Toby (Jun 13, 2007)

That NOS Guy said:


> On the exact converse, millions of Muslims don't embrace the practice. I'll be the last person in the world to defend Islam, but honor killings are not reinforced by Koranic verse or the Sunnah to the best of my knowledge.
> 
> It could be argued that the importance attached to women remaining chaste and daughters being submissive is what allows this cultural relics to function, but that's an entirely different manner.



Hear hear. I am surprised that so many of these murders continue in Europe despite the European Council for Fatwa and Research's annual proclamations on fatwas about how to live as a Muslim in a non-Islamic nation. Actually, to be honest, I am disgusted by it, as this is a form of authority which should not be ignored - and yes, I know that a fatwa is more of a form of advice.

But the thing is, the laws of a non-Islamic country must be obeyed because no religion within for instance Britain, is given any specific benefits for its believers and therefore there is no group which is treated differently under the law. That is why one should actually obey it.



CrimemasterGogo said:


> I win ten dollars. I bet that you would be the one to post this. Ahh Mega Harrison your Islamaphobia is getting so predictable.
> 
> Shame so many other people get strangled daily for many other reasons but of course being Muslim just changes everything!!! The guy was a psycho religious nut nothing else. Stop spinning it MH.



I get a bit tired with this sort of critique. Both mods and members almost harass MH for his opinion. Although it is biased at times, this is a news report about a bloody horrific murder. I see no way how some news articles should be reserved for certain members to post and leave out others, because if liberty means anything, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.

If this is Islamaphobia? It can be angled as such, but I think this sort of article carries too little bias to be percieved as anti-Islamic, or as to possess a phobia for it. The fact about the matter is that this murder is intolerable, and whilst I realise that you know this, so too should you kindly overlook the need to draw a hasty remark where you bet you can predict MH's next move. It does not really provide any incentive for him to behave otherwise, right?



Amaretti said:


> Nothing irritates me more than people who move to a foreign country, take advantage of the all the benefits and stability, and then flout the laws and carry on acting like they only have to answer to sharia.
> 
> Killing your children for honor? Yeah... British law enforcement doesn't overlook shit like that...



Oh Amaretti, I did not know that we shared that irritation. I have always thought of it as very conservative of me. But shoe.

Remember albeit that British law enforcement does not overlook this, it has an uncanny ability to occasionally overlook the crime committed and let personal disgust get the better of them. But that is not a British quality, I reckon - I just felt like pointing out that depending on where you are in Britain, you will meet fascinating differences in a London Bobby and a Glaswegian Pig.


----------



## BeautifulGreenBeast (Jun 13, 2007)

Honor Killing? More like horror killing..... I hope they get ass raped in prison 100 times.


----------



## Tsukimaru (Jun 13, 2007)

HyperKnuckles22 said:


> I never said bin laden took responsibility from the Koran.  a poll taken in palenstine some years back basically said that 70% of palenstinians approve of Bin laden.



Orly?



			
				Osama bin Laden said:
			
		

> What America is tasting now is something insignificant compared to what we have tasted for scores of years. Our nation (the Islamic world) has been tasting this humiliation and degradation for more than 80 years. Its sons are killed, it's blood is shed, its sanctuaries are attacked and no one hears and no one heeds. Millions of innocent children are being killed as I speak. They are being killed in Iraq without committing any sins... To America, I say only a few words to it and its people. I swear to God, who has elevated the skies without pillars, neither America nor the people who live in it will dream of security before we live it here in Palestine and not before all the infidel armies leave the land of Muhammad, peace be upon him.



The Muslims who support him are generally the impressionable and/or less-than-educated ones, who, because of their situation and location, witness only America's crimes against them. His speech probably rings true to them because of their personal experience and because, frankly, they don't know any better. Thus, they end up making the same ignorant generalizations about Americans that you make about Muslims.

My point is, I called you a bigot because of your ignorant generalization of Muslims, to which you responded that you aren't ignorant, and retorted with _"Tell me then, why does Osama bin laden have millions of admirers in the middle east?"_. The fact that bin Laden's reasons for doing what he did do not relate to the Qur'an should show you that his admirers support him because they're being _ignorant tools_, and that it really has nothing to do with them being Muslims.


----------



## FrostXian (Jun 13, 2007)

I live in Turkey and here, people strangle the shit out of each other, no kidding. Tousands of people die everyday. Actually we are all dead.


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## HyperKnuckles22 (Jun 13, 2007)

Orly is not a word. just to pacify you people,  I suppose i should live in the middle east so i should be "reeducated"  for my "dangerous" thoughts.


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## Tsukimaru (Jun 13, 2007)

HyperKnuckles22 said:


> Orly is not a word. just to pacify you people,  I suppose i should live in the middle east so i should be "reeducated"  for my "dangerous" thoughts.



ORLY!?

Also, what the hell are you talking about? I'm trying to give you a logical explanation as to why the relatively few supporters of bin Laden do so, and am attempting to defend the rest of the Muslim population from your bigotry. Do you care? Or do you just want to be right?


----------



## Amaretti (Jun 13, 2007)

HyperKnuckles22 said:


> Orly is not a word.



ORLY?



			
				thefreedictionary.com said:
			
		

> Noun	1.	Orly - a southeastern suburb of Paris; site of an international airport serving Paris



______


----------



## Tsukimaru (Jun 13, 2007)

Amaretti said:


> ORLY?



Beat you too it, sucka!



> Noun 1. Orly - a southeastern suburb of Paris; site of an international airport serving Paris



:rofl


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## HyperKnuckles22 (Jun 13, 2007)

Tsukimaru said:


> ORLY!?
> 
> Also, what the hell are you talking about? I'm trying to give you a logical explanation as to why the relatively few supporters of bin Laden do so, and am attempting to defend the rest of the Muslim population from your bigotry. Do you care? Or do you just want to be right?



What, im not supposed to mad that women are abused like this daily over there? im supposed to put up with it?
My point is im sick of crap like this going on all the damn time, like "dowry deaths" and the like. I dont hate muslims, but im sick of the crap their buddies do to people. and if muslims themselves are angry about it, why dont THEY do something to stop this behaviour.


----------



## Toby (Jun 13, 2007)

HyperKnuckles22 said:


> What, im not supposed to mad that women are abused like this daily over there? im supposed to put up with it?
> My point is im sick of crap like this going on all the damn time, like "dowry deaths" and the like. I dont hate muslims, but im sick of the crap their buddies do to people. and if muslims themselves are angry about it, why dont THEY do something to stop this behaviour.



But they do something about it. Have you ever heard of 

The father is simply a stubborn man who refuses their authority or unaware of their existance. Although, in my opinion, if he is unaware of their existence, maybe he ought to be killed.


----------



## Tsukimaru (Jun 13, 2007)

HyperKnuckles22 said:


> What, im not supposed to mad that women are abused like this daily over there? im supposed to put up with it?
> My point is im sick of crap like this going on all the damn time, like "dowry deaths" and the like. I dont hate muslims, but im sick of the crap their buddies do to people. and if muslims themselves are angry about it, why dont THEY do something to stop this behaviour.



I can totally understand that, but not "putting up with it" does not equate to making bigoted remarks and generalizations. I agree with being outspoken about it, but not like that. Additionally, many Muslims _are_ trying to do something about it. They are just as outspoken about bullshit like that as we are, if not more so, as they don't want to be discriminated against because of what some douche did in the name of their religion. Whether or not you choose to ignore them is an entirely different story, and not their responsibility.


----------



## Trias (Jun 13, 2007)

My best friend, who was playing in my band, was shot to death last night because our band was making "metal" music, which was satanic according to them, therefore my friend was to be killed according to sharia laws..

 I fucking hate every muslim and every muslimc oriented country, they're all fuckers who need to die for humanity's sake!!


----------



## Amaretti (Jun 13, 2007)

Trias said:


> My best friend, who was playing in my band, was shot to death last night because our band was making "metal" music, which was satanic according to them, therefore my friend was to be killed according to sharia laws..
> 
> I fucking hate every muslim and every muslimc oriented country, they're all fuckers who need to die for humanity's sake!!



I'm sorry about your friend. I don't agree that all muslims need to die because of this, but I understand your anger...


----------



## That NOS Guy (Jun 13, 2007)

Trias said:


> My best friend, who was playing in my band, was shot to death last night because our band was making "metal" music, which was satanic according to them, therefore my friend was to be killed according to sharia laws..
> 
> I fucking hate every muslim and every muslimc oriented country, they're all fuckers who need to die for humanity's sake!!



I'm sorry to hear that man, my condolences. Fuck those assholes, did they get who did it?


----------



## HyperKnuckles22 (Jun 13, 2007)

Tsukimaru said:


> I can totally understand that, but not "putting up with it" does not equate to making bigoted remarks and generalizations. I agree with being outspoken about it, but not like that. Additionally, many Muslims _are_ trying to do something about it. They are just as outspoken about bullshit like that as we are, if not more so, as they don't want to be discriminated against because of what some douche did in the name of their religion. Whether or not you choose to ignore them is an entirely different story, and not their responsibility.



the European Council for Fatwa and Research ought to do something about those people being held in iran as "american spies".
or india needs a group like that to deal with "dowry deaths."

trias, i know your joking. satanic bands are outdated anyway.


----------



## Toby (Jun 13, 2007)

Trias said:


> My best friend, who was playing in my band, was shot to death last night because our band was making "metal" music, which was satanic according to them, therefore my friend was to be killed according to sharia laws..
> 
> I fucking hate every muslim and every muslimc oriented country, they're all fuckers who need to die for humanity's sake!!



Those who killed your friend surely did not respect the country's laws and are simply criminals pursuing an extreme belief which is out of order. I would use the Muslim community to track them down and explain to them what the actual doctrines of their religion forbids them from doing, and then punish them according to the law.

And I disagree with all Muslims needing to die. One of my closer friends is a Muslim and I see nothing wrong with her. In fact she adores rock in all forms, so this is completely new to me.


----------



## Tsukimaru (Jun 13, 2007)

Toby_Christ said:


> Those who killed your friend surely did not respect the country's laws and are simply criminals pursuing an extreme belief which is out of order. I would use the Muslim community to track them down and explain to them what the actual doctrines of their religion forbids them from doing, and then punish them according to the law.
> 
> And I disagree with all Muslims needing to die. One of my closer friends is a Muslim and I see nothing wrong with her. In fact she adores rock in all forms, so this is completely new to me.



Two things:

1.) I thought Trias was making a tasteless joke. 

2.) Although this is completely off-topic... Toby, whenever I read your posts, I can't help but imagine them in Ben Stiller's "Zoolander" voice because of your damn avatar.


----------



## Toby (Jun 13, 2007)

That was indeed tasteless, Trias.



HyperKnuckles22 said:


> the European Council for Fatwa and Research ought to do something about those people being held in iran as "american spies".
> or india needs a group like that to deal with "dowry deaths."



How can they do something about Iran which is in the Middle East? The Ummah has to deal with that, if anyone.

India cannot provide for the tens of millions who are starving in their country. Naturally, they take presedence before those who are lacking dowries. 



HyperKnuckles22 said:


> trias, i know your joking. satanic bands are outdated anyway.



I did not know whether Trias was pulling a joke here, and I would not take the chances of thinking like that. Tell me, how did you know he is joking, because this is pretty serious.



			
				Tsukimaru said:
			
		

> Two things:
> 
> 1.) I thought Trias was making a tasteless joke.



I just found out that he is joking. The wise thing though, is to believe him unless he says it is otherwise.


			
				Tsukimaru said:
			
		

> 2.) Although this is completely off-topic... Toby, whenever I read your posts, I can't help but imagine them in Ben Stiller's "Zoolander" voice because of your damn avatar.



For the past two weeks I have pondered at what I should change my avatar to, but I am so bad at everything related to computer graphics that I might just revert to a picture of chocolate smarties I found when googling "beans".


----------



## Edo (Jun 13, 2007)

Tsukimaru said:


> 2.) Although this is completely off-topic... Toby, whenever I read your posts, I can't help but imagine them in Ben Stiller's "Zoolander" voice because of your damn avatar.



OMG and I though that happened to me only! lol...that avi is something else!

On topic:
People should see the laws in Islam concerning adultery and changing religion, both punishable by death....and my guess is that's why this topic gives emphasis on the father's religion.

too bad non of the muslim members here have posted to clear some things up.


----------



## matsuo (Jun 13, 2007)

Trias said:


> My best friend, who was playing in my band, was shot to death last night because our band was making "metal" music, which was satanic according to them, therefore my friend was to be killed according to sharia laws..
> 
> I fucking hate every muslim and every muslimc oriented country, they're all fuckers who need to die for humanity's sake!!



I'm sorry to hear the story...
But one of my best mates is Muslim and I don't want him die.

Spare him:> He's a nice guy.


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## Black Wraith (Jun 13, 2007)

matsuo said:


> I'm sorry to hear the story...
> But one of my best mates is Muslim and I don't want him die.
> 
> Spare him:> He's a nice guy.



You may or may not know, but there is no such thing as 'honor killing' in Islam.

It's just some people with fucked up ideologies.


----------



## Edo (Jun 13, 2007)

^^ what about the the death penalties mentioned in the Quran, please clarify that, it will help us all understand.

can anyone define "Honor killings"?!


----------



## matsuo (Jun 13, 2007)

Black Fenix said:


> You may or may not know, but there is no such thing as 'honor killing' in Islam.
> 
> It's just some people with fucked up ideologies.



I didn't know that...
What I do know is there are people just trying to "troll" (in a sense) in all different religious groups in order to get attention, or even worse, to fulfill their personal schemes.

Some buy those ideologies because of their life experience and a lot more don't. Even ordinary Chinese people have got disillusioned from communism nowadays, which once appealed to the older generations so much.

100 persons see 100 Qur'ans. I don't know if this is precisely put but I have learnt that through the friendship between my best mate and me.


----------



## Toby (Jun 13, 2007)

Edo said:


> ^^ what about the the death penalties mentioned in the Quran, please clarify that, it will help us all understand.
> 
> can anyone define "Honor killings"?!



Honour killings: Killing in the name of honour.

Or 



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> An honor killing is a murder, nearly exclusively of a woman, who has been perceived as having brought dishonor to her family. Such killings are typically perpetrated by the victim's own relatives and/or community and unlike a crime of passion or rage-induced killing, it is usually planned in advance.
> 
> In societies and cultures where they occur, such killings are often regarded as a "private matter" for the affected family alone, and courts rarely become involved or prosecute the perpetrators.
> 
> The United Nations Population Fund estimates that the annual worldwide total of honor-killing victims may be as high as 5,000 women.



Ok with that, Edo?


----------



## Edo (Jun 13, 2007)

good enough, but then we will have to define what Honor is to such societies...it seems it can encompass a wide range of behavior! 

From just going out with a man of other religion and culture, to sleeping with him before marriage!


----------



## Black Wraith (Jun 13, 2007)

matsuo said:


> 100 persons see 100 Qur'ans. I don't know if this is precisely put but I have learnt that through the friendship between my best mate and me.


I don't know what you mean.


----------



## Toby (Jun 13, 2007)

Edo said:


> good enough, but then we will have to define what Honor is to such societies...it seems it can encompass a wide range of behavior!



No, that is overdoing it. For this discussion it is obviously fine to settle with the definition that what a culture deems unethical or out of order consitutes the right to kill in the name of honour.

However, society itself is not the debateable topic for this society. It is proper conduct which is the core of this issue, as the father took an extreme course of action for completely unfounded reasons. Neither religion nor law supported him in his case. Of course, religion is a red herring in this context anyways because it was in Britain, but it is surprising how this is allowed to happen when such learned men work in the European council for Muslims designed to prevent this sort of shit.


----------



## sel (Jun 13, 2007)

CrimemasterGogo said:


> I win ten dollars. I bet that you would be the one to post this. Ahh Mega Harrison your Islamaphobia is getting so predictable.
> 
> Shame so many other people get strangled daily for many other reasons but of course being Muslim just changes everything!!! The guy was a psycho religious nut nothing else. Stop spinning it MH.



He's raising a prevalent issue in western society, not being islamophobic by posting this



Toad Hermit said:


> wtf first it was due to religious reasons.. now its country reasons what next honor killing because your husband did not have a sprinkled penis?



I absolutely fucking hate shit like this to the extent that it just pisses me off so much. I mean absolutely nowhere in the Qu'ran does it give you the right to kill you daughter for such a reason as this, let alone for any reason.

As Fenix put it, 



> You may or may not know, but there is no such thing as 'honor killing' in Islam.
> 
> It's just some people with fucked up ideologies.



I think if anything its a cultural issue, though to be honest I don't see what could possess a man to kill his own daughter. That bastard seriously deserves to rot.


			
				Matsuo said:
			
		

> 100 persons see 100 Qur'ans. I don't know if this is precisely put but I have learnt that through the friendship between my best mate and me.



Youre basically saying that people can interpret in different ways, which is of course true to an extent. Though not to the extent of allowing Cold Blooded murder


----------



## Pimp of Pimps (Jun 13, 2007)

*There's so much stupidity in this thread. 

There are no such things as honor killings in Islam. It's against the teachings of Islam to kill someone because of things like this. 

Also, like others and I have said in this thread, it's isn't a religious thing. It's where that girl's family came from. There are little villages all over all over the world who do things like this. A lot of those villages are in countries that would have them jailed (and perhaps executed) if they were to find out about this. *​


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## matsuo (Jun 13, 2007)

Black Fenix said:


> I don't know what you mean.



I mean even amongst Qur'an readers people interpret and understand the book in different ways. 

Some take it to the extreme whereas some regard it as only a guidance of everyday life. That's even the case when it comes to individual sentences of the doctrine.

And while the Qur'an being interpreted in different ways Muslims act in many different ways as well. For instance from my observation that friend of mine only shares the "No pork consumption" bit.(Who knows...Maybe there are more things he would do but he never bothered to tell me 'cause I'm his infidel friend  ...) An "honour killing" would be something he finds totally unacceptable.

So now it seems that my original sentence was NOT precisely put


----------



## Pimp of Pimps (Jun 13, 2007)

*Everyone can interpret the Quran in a different way, but it's still written in ink.*


----------



## Dio Brando (Jun 13, 2007)

This has happened before and it will happen again. *shrug*


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## Black Wraith (Jun 13, 2007)

Check my Sig and you'll see that you need a lot of skills to understand the Quran.


----------



## matsuo (Jun 13, 2007)

Thus if there are no doctrines like honour killing in the Quran, the Quran shouldn't be the book to blame in this instance.


----------



## Bleach (Jun 13, 2007)

Well....... IDK if killing is the punishment but there is a punishment for what she did but i dont think its that deep...


----------



## Edo (Jun 13, 2007)

Polygon said:


> *There's so much stupidity in this thread.
> 
> There are no such things as honor killings in Islam. It's against the teachings of Islam to kill someone because of things like this.
> 
> Also, like others and I have said in this thread, it's isn't a religious thing. It's where that girl's family came from. There are little villages all over all over the world who do things like this. A lot of those villages are in countries that would have them jailed (and perhaps executed) if they were to find out about this. *​



True, But there are countries with laws that protect such acts. When people from such countries move to the west they bring that mentality with them. 

I bet that most of these killings in the west happen from first generation immigrants.


----------



## sel (Jun 13, 2007)

matsuo said:


> Thus if there are no doctrines like honour killing in the Quran, the Quran shouldn't be the book to blame in this instance.



Thats what we're saying! ><


----------



## Black Wraith (Jun 13, 2007)

Forced marriages are not allowed anyway. If a person is not allowed to get married to the person he/she wants to get married to then they are allowed to run away and get married if they fear that they will do something that is Haram/Illegal (ie. adultery etc)


----------



## matsuo (Jun 13, 2007)

Son et Lumi?re said:


> Thats what we're saying! ><



I knew that as soon as Fenix pointed it out><
No worries mate!


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## xpeed (Jun 13, 2007)

People like them gives Muslims a bad rep.  They should wake up and smell the Western Culture if they're gonna live in a Western country.  I'm glad they're getting the maximum penalty.


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## T4R0K (Jun 13, 2007)

sadated_peon said:


> He lived in a Muslim community, so I ask the Muslims here would you have said nothing? would you have done nothing? would you have let it come to this?



I would have gone to find him, and beat him hard before handing him to the cops. I fucking would have done something if possible. If I was their neighbour, I'd call the cops then try to interupt the murder. Dunno how, but I'd try.

OK, before reading the rest of this thread (that grew rather fast), just for the "lol muzlimz" crowd, I'm from a muslim country, I asked my father about honor killings, and he said that was BS and that such killings had nothing "honorable" at all. And maybe my Dad is a little racist there, when he told me "It's M-E business... We Bosnians don't do such things. We're Europeans afterall." Me after that comment "Dad... -_-' "

If a muslim girl goes out with a non-muslim in Bosnia, people will just make gossips, parents will make faces, but killing her ? That wouldn't cross anyone's mind, save the insane ones. In case of rape, the girl is treated and comforted, and the raper will be jailed, if he survives the family's wrath. But with the Wahhabis and Salafists bullshitters trying to get there, I'm starting to get worried... Stuff never seens there start to appear... 

I'm sick of those motherfucking extremists on my ... whatever... religion !! AND I'M ALSO SICK OF THE "moderate" MUSLIMS THAT ARE FUCKING TOO SILENT ON CONDEMNING THEM !!! FUCK !! WHAT ARE WE WAITING FOR ? NO ONE CARES ABOUT US TELLING THEM "We're a religion of peace" !! What ? We're a religion so "peaceful" we can't even sort our shit out ? WHY ARE SO "peaceful" WE CAN'T EVEN LOOK AT THE STUFF THAT IS HAPPENING HONESTLY AND STOP IT ? 

I've said it TONS of times ! But NO ONE CARES !! 
The problem of extremism has to be solved by muslims themselves !! WHY THE FUCK AREN'T WE DOING ANYTHING ? AND WHY ARE THOSE THAT TRY KILLED AND FORGOTTEN BY THE "moderate" MUSLIMS ?? I'm sick of it... Fucking sick !!


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 13, 2007)

Once again, here's where honor gets you...


----------



## Ennoea (Jun 13, 2007)

I hope you people know that this tends to happen in non-muslim communities too. Its cultural but people use religion to back up their actions. In Islam you cannot lawfully kill anyone. These sorts of ideas are common in the more older (illiterate) part of muslim society but thankfully its changing.


----------



## Toby (Jun 13, 2007)

CrimemasterGogo said:


> I hope you people know that this tends to happen in non-muslim communities too. Its cultural but people use religion to back up their actions. In Islam you cannot lawfully kill anyone. These sorts of ideas are common in the more older (illiterate) part of muslim society but thankfully its changing.



But this happened in Britain. That only goes to show that it does happen. 

Anyway.


----------



## Ennoea (Jun 13, 2007)

I ain't saying that it doesn't happen. Im saying that these prehistoric ideas should die out soon with the old muslims.


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## Outlandish (Jun 13, 2007)

did anyone mention that she went the Police 4! times telling them that her life was endanger and they did nothing but say she was fanatical. That is what i find shocking.


----------



## Freiza (Jun 14, 2007)

^ apparently they thought, that the truth never killed anybody


----------



## Vanity (Jun 14, 2007)

That's really sad.

I mean I can see why some parents might not agree with certain relationships and the like(my parents wouldn't want me just going out with anyone either and would 'prefer' I stick to guys that are like us) but you know, it's really not worth killing a family member over. That's just too extreme.

If parents love their kids a lot they should understand and let the kid make his or her own decision assuming they are of a mature age.


----------



## Freiza (Jun 14, 2007)

^ so true, honor is not marrying the same race/religion preference, but marrying  for love, true love
who the hell am i kidding?


----------



## T4R0K (Jun 14, 2007)

Makenshi said:


> did anyone mention that she went the Police 4! times telling them that her life was endanger and they did nothing but say she was fanatical. That is what i find shocking.



WTH ? Retardo cops !


----------



## The_Unforgiven (Jun 14, 2007)

Honour killings have nothing to do with islam. I challenge anyone, and I  will rep them everyday for 2 weeks straight to find me any verse of the quran, or hadith, or an action of the sahaba that says you must kill your daughter yourself if she commits adultry.


----------



## Instant Karma (Jun 14, 2007)

Wow. That's sad. I can't understand this sorta thing.


----------



## HyperKnuckles22 (Jun 14, 2007)

"Give me another reason why you're a dumbass who doesnt understand what the fuck you're talking about-zaidpyker"

Before another idiot decides to negrep me, Ill have you know I Know what i am talking about. I happen live in tel aviv, i have lost several family members over the past ten years, most of them to "radicals". my mother was crippled by one of these attacks, and ive had to support her since then. she has trouble accepting the idea that islam is a religion of peace, and she is 67 mind you. so to the next asswipe who negreps me thinking i know nothing, expect the same from me.


----------



## Thanos (Jun 14, 2007)

HyperKnuckles22 said:


> the European Council for Fatwa and Research ought to do something about those people being held in iran as "american spies".
> or india needs a group like that to deal with "dowry deaths."
> 
> trias, i know your joking. satanic bands are outdated anyway.



Just because you dont know about them, doesnt mean they dont exist. There are many groups that are trying to stop these events from happening in both the arab world and India, but they dont have magic wands that can just make them stop happening. I dont have any experience with Islam, but I am of Indian heritage and whenever I hear of caste based violence it makes me both embarrassed and sick to my stomach. But because there are so many people in the country, there are many small villages which are pretty much unrecorded and isolated, which tend to be traditional and thus where these horrible things tend to happen. Infact, I wouldnt be surprised if it happens alot more than we know because of the isolated nature of these people and villages. 

Honor killings may not be rooted in the Koran, but it is obviously the families cultural background and beliefs that influences it.  I completely understand that shades of the caste system are what causes the tragedy to rear its ugly head in any given Hindu village, but what exactly propels a Muslim family to commit such an atrocity against one of their own? We do know that in countries which administer sharia law, women are oppressed in ways that we do not see in western developed countries. I dont have the required knowledge of the Koran to provide citations. Even google searched koran passages are often paraphrased or mistranslated to prove the authors points or agenda. It would take someone who has studied and who has direct experience with the religious texts to make a connection between the Koran and honor killings.


----------



## HyperKnuckles22 (Jun 14, 2007)

Thanos said:


> Just because you dont know about them, doesnt mean they dont exist. There are many groups that are trying to stop these events from happening in both the arab world and India, but they dont have magic wands that can just make them stop happening. I dont have any experience with Islam, but I am of Indian heritage and whenever hear of caste based violence it makes me both embarrassed and sick to my stomach. But because there are so many people in the country, there are many small villages which are pretty much unrecorded and isolated, which tend to be traditional and thus where these horrible things tend to happen.



I didnt say i didnt think they existed.


----------



## Negative-Ion (Jun 14, 2007)

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha i just had to fucking laugh at this! ahahahahhaahahhahahhahahaha poor girl. but i laugh at all the fools who follow such practices.

She became too westernize? wtf is that? its the fathers fault then for moving to london, if he didnt like the west, why the fuck did he move to london. he could have stayed in wherever he was and his daughter would be blind. but unfortunatly for him, he didnt and move to london and his daughter opened her eyes and followed her heart.

ahahahahahahahahah i laugh at all your religious freaks. her blood is in your religions preachings.


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## HyperKnuckles22 (Jun 14, 2007)

Ion, dont forget about that lawyer that was on CNN who thinks Britian should  have sharia law.


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## Negative-Ion (Jun 14, 2007)

HyperKnuckles22 said:


> Ion, dont forget about that lawyer that was on CNN who thinks Britian should  have sharia law.



i dont know about that laywer, but i do know that such practices as this, spawn directly from islamic holy books or whatever they have.

its because women are considered a lower level than men.  Its because a muslim guy can marry a non-muslim woman. but a muslim woman can not marry a non-muslim man or someone outside their "culture"

Take it as you will, but that is the MAIN reason for such killings, ideas, and practices.

Thats the root of all that is fucked up in the religion they follow, theres no true equality.


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## Esponer (Jun 14, 2007)

Islam does not permit honour killing. Nonetheless, a disturbing correlation exists between Muslims and this sort of murder. However, we are all well aware that correlation dues not prove causation, and so all we know is that Islam does not have the power to preclude this sort of behaviour (that is not to say that all Muslims are likely to commit honour killings, but that it is possible to be a Muslim and be of that mind).

It does worry me a little that it may be a little too prevalent in a certain culture, but I don't care that the culture is predominantly Islamic as it is not a consequence of Islam. I know Muslims (all Pakistani) who have had to call off relationships for fear of honour killing in my town, and it's a terrible and worrying thing. Let's have the maturity not to blame a peaceful religion for a barbaric aspect of one particularly subculture for which Islam is not responsible.


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## Tsukimaru (Jun 14, 2007)

Negative-Ion said:


> i dont know about that laywer, but i do know that such practices as this, spawn directly from islamic holy books *or whatever they have.
> *
> its because women are considered a lower level than men.  Its because a muslim guy can marry a non-muslim woman. but a muslim woman can not marry a non-muslim man or someone outside their "culture"
> 
> ...



Lolz. This proves you don't know what you're talking about. As to the part about sexual equality, you just paraphrased something you learned in these forums. 

Moreover, to blame an entire religion, especially one you're so incredibly ignorant about, over the actions of one psychopath is both laughably absurd and unbelievably ridiculous.

Additionally, to preach true equality, you should yourself practice it. But since you think yourself above people strictly based upon their religious beliefs, it makes you a complete hypocrite.


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## Ennoea (Jun 14, 2007)

Honour Killings have happened for centuries and especially around South asia. The fact is that with Muslims they think that their judgement is divine and that they will be rewarded. That doesn't mean that it doesn't happen elsewhere, its just not as reported.



> Ion, dont forget about that lawyer that was on CNN who thinks Britian should have sharia law.



I find these people seriously delusional. I've heard so many blabbering on about crap like this. Personally (and Im muslim) hope that these people fuck off . Its people like this that cause rifts in society, and teach that people of other faiths should accept Islam or be killed. I have a couple of white friends and when they're around my area we get so many looks that they just don't feel comfortable hanging around with me. *going off topic*

If you live in a foreign country then you atleast accept and respect their laws. If not, then just leave. And Negative-Ion, unless you have knowledge on a certain practice then freely judge it, otherwise don't make assumptions.


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## The_Unforgiven (Jun 15, 2007)

still, no one replied to my challenge. I guess, you can't link this to islam then. This is just ignorant people taking matter into their own hands.


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## Negative-Ion (Jun 15, 2007)

Tsukimaru said:


> Lolz. This proves you don't know what you're talking about. As to the part about sexual equality, you just paraphrased something you learned in these forums.
> 
> Moreover, to blame an entire religion, especially one you're so incredibly ignorant about, over the actions of one psychopath is both laughably absurd and unbelievably ridiculous.
> 
> Additionally, to preach true equality, you should yourself practice it. But since you think yourself above people strictly based upon their religious beliefs, it makes you a complete hypocrite.



just because i dont use the actual word of the book doesnt mean i dont know the book's name. in fact if you have read any of my posts about religion, i never mentioned any book by their religions name. as i find it retarded to  call such books "holy" as your religion and whoever else religion calls it.

Also, dont assume that i learned about islam in this forums. you must be really stupid to think that. But then again, that is to be expected by retarding people like yourself, who only assume and judge without having facts.

If you want more info, ive lived in 3 different countries, one of them was Greece, and if you know anything about Greece, at school you need to take 1 class that has to do with religion. In this class, you learn about all religions, including islam. Ask any greek student for more info.

and as for the mariage thing, its a fact and your books prove it. thats all there is to it.


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## Zabuzalives (Jun 15, 2007)

Backwater culture....

The fact they bring it into their new country and dont even try to adjust or integrate is even more sad. 

What the fuck do these people even do in Britain if they hate the West so much? ship them back to wherever they came from I say. 

And before you go with the ""discrimination and religious intolerance"", with the Political correct BS that its just a lone psycho. Im not saying any of that. 

honour killings are simply a big problem in certain cultures. Predominantly certain muslim cultures/countries. Thats just an observation. The fact they bring it into their new society just shows the problems with integration


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## Tsukimaru (Jun 15, 2007)

Negative-Ion said:


> just because i dont use the actual word of the book doesnt mean i dont know the book's name. in fact if you have read any of my posts about religion, i never mentioned any book by their religions name. as i find it retarded to  call such books "holy" as your religion and whoever else religion calls it.



What are you blathering about? Also, LOLZ at the negative rep. All I did was voice my opposition to your rather ignorant remark, but I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that you wouldn't like that.

It wasn't that you didn't use the name, it's that you used _"Islamic holy books or *whatever they have*"_ which to me, indicated that you haven't even touched a Qur'an in your entire lifetime. Hey, maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it.



Negative-Ion said:


> Also, dont assume that i learned about islam in this forums. you must be really stupid to think that. But then again, that is to be expected by retarding people like yourself, who only assume and judge without having facts.



You're the one who's assuming things. I said _"as to the part about sexual equality, you just paraphrased something you learned in these forums"_. Not that your Islamic education was restricted to that. Reading comprehension FTW.

Very interesting. I'm a "retarding" person who only assumes and judges without having the facts. Hypocritical much? Here's what you said in the "Ask a question about Islam" thread:



Negative-Ion said:


> also i'd like to be a bit more specific in this marriage thing, a male muslim is ok to marry a female non-muslim. is it ok for a female muslim to marry a male non-muslim?



Hm, interesting, it's almost as if by this comment, you reveal that you DIDN'T KNOW about the lack of Islamic marriage equality. If you continue reading, our good friend hamoodi_19 answered your question, and thus, it turns out that you really did learn about Islamic marriage equality from him, i.e. on the forums. 

Funny, it appears as if my "assumption" was correct.



Negative-Ion said:


> If you want more info, ive lived in 3 different countries, one of them was Greece, and if you know anything about Greece, at school you need to take 1 class that has to do with religion. In this class, you learn about all religions, including islam. Ask any greek student for more info.



Wow, three countries. I've lived in five. How is that even remotely relevant? You "need" to take one class that has to do with religion? Wow, so you took a single class in general religious studies during your compulsory education. I could be wrong, but I'm willing to bet that your high school general religious studies didn't even scratch the surface of Islam; I should know, I've taken one myself, except at a college. This is especially apparent because of all your questions in the other thread.



Negative-Ion said:


> and as for the mariage thing, its a fact and your books prove it. thats all there is to it.



My books? What books are you referring to? The _books_ you haven't read? Moreover, did you assume I was a Muslim? I should hope not... After all, you went through all the trouble of attacking me for making assumptions.

_*Faaaaailure.*_


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## Negative-Ion (Jun 15, 2007)

Tsukimaru said:


> What are you blathering about? Also, LOLZ at the negative rep. All I did was voice my opposition to your rather ignorant remark, but I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that you wouldn't like that.
> 
> It wasn't that you didn't use the name, it's that you used _"Islamic holy books or *whatever they have*"_ which to me, indicated that you haven't even touched a Qur'an in your entire lifetime. Hey, maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it.
> 
> ...



LOL dude, you are really stupid, seriously. If know about the fact that muslim men can marry non-muslim women, of course i will know if muslim women can marry non-muslim men or not. My question was phrased like that, only because i wanted to see the reaction or reply of whoever was going to reply. and it worked. Did you see how he replied? he replied with a "No!" see the emphasis that is put into that reply?

Actually, the religion class in greece is not a class i "needed" to take. its as mandtatory as math and it is so you can understand the different religions. its spans from junior high school, to gynasium and then to high school. they have 3 lvls of education, their system is different, where the first stage is 6 years, the 2nd stage is 3 years and the 3rd is also 3 years. that accounts for 12 years before you go college. and the religion class starts at year 4. so bascially you have 8 years of 1 religion class, that does indeed touches and progresses your knowledge about religion.

As for your books. i didnt say you specifically. i meant, you as in you the muslims. since i wasnt replying to you specifically. So maybe you need to comprehend better what you are reading.


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## Tsukimaru (Jun 15, 2007)

Negative-Ion said:


> LOL dude, you are really stupid, seriously. If know about the fact that muslim men can marry non-muslim women, of course i will know if muslim women can marry non-muslim men or not. My question was phrased like that, only because i wanted to see the reaction or reply of whoever was going to reply. and it worked. Did you see how he replied? he replied with a "No!" see the emphasis that is put into that reply?



You certainly like calling me stupid. Lol.

I'm not one to rag on someone's grammar and spelling, but if you want to discuss this, I'm going to have to ask you to clean this up a bit. It's difficult to comprehend what you're saying here. I think I get what you're trying to say at the end, however, but the way you phrased that question, and how you responded to his answer, as well as the rest of your questions in the thread, lead me to believe otherwise.



Negative-Ion said:


> Actually, the religion class in greece is not a class i "needed" to take.



As contrasted by:



			
				Negative-Ion said:
			
		

> at school you need to take 1 class that has to do with religion.



Hmm. I admit, it's going to be difficult to refute your arguments if this keeps up.



			
				Negative-Ion said:
			
		

> its as mandtatory as math and it is so you can understand the different religions. its spans from junior high school, to gynasium and then to high school. they have 3 lvls of education, their system is different, where the first stage is 6 years, the 2nd stage is 3 years and the 3rd is also 3 years. that accounts for 12 years before you go college. and the religion class starts at year 4. so bascially you have 8 years of 1 religion class, that does indeed touches and progresses your knowledge about religion.



I'm sure junior high school religious classes must be extremely informative. Moreover, you missed my point. The fact that you haven't read the material yourself makes your statements ignorant.



			
				Negative-Ion said:
			
		

> As for your books. i didnt say you specifically. i meant, you as in you the muslims. since i wasnt replying to you specifically. So maybe you need to comprehend better what you are reading.



Yes, you did. What you say and what you mean tend to differ a lot, don't they?

"You as in you the muslims"? That doesn't make any sense. If you were referring to Muslims and not me, you would say "the Muslims" or "they". 

Additionally, you were replying to me specifically, so I took it as such. If you'd like to alleviate the confusion surrounding that, perhaps you should have included the quote of whomever you're responding to.


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## Robotkiller (Jun 15, 2007)

Toad Hermit said:


> wtf first it was due to religious reasons.. now its country reasons what next honor killing because your husband did not have a sprinkled penis?



What the fuck is a sprinkled penis?


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## Toad Hermit (Jun 15, 2007)

you know like Michael jacksons


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## Esponer (Jun 15, 2007)

hamoodi_19 said:


> still, no one replied to my challenge. I guess, you can't link this to islam then. This is just ignorant people taking matter into their own hands.


I would've leapt on it, but I happen to know that you're right. A good whipping is about the lot of it, no honour killings.


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## Shinobikitty (Jun 15, 2007)

This situation is not something that can easily have "blame" placed upon it... religion, culture, customs... It is a complex situation because we are complex as humans. I keep hearing questions like... Why didn't other Muslims do anything? Well why didn't she herself go to the police she was abused and fully aware of her (and her families) situation. She may have been his daughter but obviously she didn't agree with his views or she wouldn't have left her husband. Now please do not get me wrong... I am not blaming her but I am also not going to blame every other Muslim out there either! People can overcome their culture by choice. He at anytime could have chosen not to proceed with the 'honor killing'. 

 Also I just want to say that I have noticed when people voice their opinions a lot of times other posters will automatically attack their grammer or spelling. I must say I completely hate this!!! Why is that such a common thing? I understand if you can't read it to say something but it if the message is there... why be an asshole? I mean does it make you feel better to point out the flaws of someone's grammer?... I don't know... Someone will probably point out my flaws because of this.. but honestly it makes me think twice before I post anything. 

Granted I may not agree with Muslim life or culture but that is my opinion. That doesn't make them wrong or me wrong it just makes us different and that is okay... I just don't understand why other people can't understand that.


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## Black Wraith (Jun 15, 2007)

Esponer said:


> I would've leapt on it, but I happen to know that you're right. A good whipping is about the lot of it, no honour killings.



I would have repped you if I could.

One the only people on this thread that has realised there is a distinction between the law (i.e. Sharia) and someone's honor.

Kudos to you


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## Negative-Ion (Jun 15, 2007)

Tsukimaru said:


> .




not worth it quoting you, its better if you go up and read it.

Where in the reply that i quoted you, did you mention anything about marriage? You see, i wasnt even fucking replying to you. i replied to your quote in the first paragraphs, not the last sentence, and as such, i didnt mean you. i meant you(the muslims).thats why i said "your books".  You do know that "you" can be used in 2 different situations and mean 2 different things right? "you" when it is refered directly to someone and "you" when it is refered to address a group of people alltogether.

So im going to tell you the same thing i told the other guy, dont fucking bring grammar and english in a forum where everyone types like the dog i dont have.


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## Moses (Jun 15, 2007)

I don't pretend to know much about Muslim beliefs, but I do know that that's not right for religious purposes, not in any of the Abrahamic religions, and not for any modern religion.


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## Tsukimaru (Jun 15, 2007)

Negative-Ion said:


> not worth it quoting you, its better if you go up and read it.
> 
> Where in the reply that i quoted you, did you mention anything about marriage?



I mentioned that the thing you paraphrased about sexual equality (regarding your comment of marriage) was from something you learned in the forums. Afterwards, you quoted ONLY my post, and said:



			
				Negative-Ion said:
			
		

> and as for the mariage thing, its a fact and your books prove it. thats all there is to it.



Furthermore:



			
				Negative-Ion said:
			
		

> You see, i wasnt even fucking replying to you. i replied to your quote in the first paragraphs, not the last sentence, and as such, i didnt mean you.



Like I said. What you *say* and what you *mean* tend to differ a lot. If you're only quoting me, and you use the word "you" and not "you guys" or "they" or anything even remotely plural, it's a safe bet that you're talking to me, not someones or somethings entirely different.



			
				Negative-Ion said:
			
		

> i meant you(the muslims).thats why i said "your books".  You do know that "you" can be used in 2 different situations and mean 2 different things right? "you" when it is refered directly to someone and "you" when it is refered to address a group of people alltogether.



You're on to something, except there's a problem. The word "you" doesn't work like that, champ. Using it in such a way means you're omitting a necessary word that would help describe who you're actually talking to other than me. So, while "you people" might have been acceptable, or "they", or something remotely similar might have passed, simply "you" doesn't, especially if I'm the only person you identified that you're responding to. 

Moreover, the person you're addressing must also be part of that group if you use something like "you people", or it makes no grammatical sense, and therefore, is going to be misunderstood. Here's an example:



> Tsukimaru: That's bullshit.
> 
> You keep skipping all the relevant points of my argument and selectively choose what to reply to. If you're going to do that, is it safe for me to assume that you're just a troll and want attention?
> 
> ...





			
				Negative-Ion said:
			
		

> So im going to tell you the same thing i told the other guy, dont fucking bring grammar and english in a forum where everyone types like the dog i dont have.



I'm bringing grammar and english into this because you made a whole, incoherent paragraph and expect me to understand. Normally I don't even bother, but if it gets so bad that I can't READ what you're saying, how am I supposed to discuss this with you? It's not a matter of how "everyone else talks", moreover, plenty of people here can form sentences. If you're not going to at least *try*, then don't even bother responding to things in the news/debate forums.

But this is quickly going off-topic. I'll be happy to discuss things with you when you learn to read and write, but until then, _adieu_.


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## Sky (Jun 15, 2007)

never heard of this......

honor killings just because of wrong love??? *sigh*

I live in a country were der muslims.... but honor kilings??? my gosh....


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## AuxunauxiaNoname (Jun 15, 2007)

And of all things to use... a shoe lace? The girl was his own daughter. It had better have had been a damn expensive shoe. 

If you're going to kill someone for honor, at least use a more tasteful weapon. 

*shake of head*


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## Anaiya (Jun 16, 2007)

I have to agree with DA that this is a cultural problem and one that should not be passed off as merely a handful of extremist psychos acting above the law.  This problem is not exclusive of Muslim cultures nor is it entirely inclusive of Muslim cultures, though it does tend to be predominant among certain Muslim cultures based in large part on a deep rooted tradition of gender inequality.  It is also a problem in many other cultures with similar traditions and the United Nations Population Fund, an organization that deals with these sorts of issues constantly, estimates that as many as 5,000 women die annually to "honor killings".  According to United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF), more than 5,000 women in India alone are victims of "dowry killings".  That is hardly a mere handful of extremists.  This is a damaging cultural phenomena.

As others have already stated, the Qur?an does not promote or even condone honor killings.  As a matter of fact, according to the Qur?an, sex outside of marriage (or, more appropriately, a legally binding union) is punishable for both men and women and, if I remember correctly, it is _not_ punishable by death.  In the Qur?an, punishment for illicit sexual behavior is not gender biased, but in real-world cultural honor killings such punishment is extremely gender biased.  This is much more a cultural phenomena than a religious one and can not be tied directly to any accurate teachings of Islam.

There are a number of groups attempting to curb the behavior of honor killings, but they have a difficult road ahead of them.  Those cultures that practice the extreme behavior believe strongly in the importance of their honor and there is still a large population that would turn a blind eye to the issue, perhaps because they relate to those beliefs on a more moderate level or because they feel self-conscious about appearing too liberal in such a society.  Those who are rallying against such accepted behaviors as honor killings and dowry killings not only have to fight the onslaught of those who will defend their beliefs, but they also have to struggle against the vast majority who remain silent and do nothing.  Even top politicians have a tendency to excuse this sort of behavior and, in some areas, it is the lawmakers themselves that prompt honor killings.  

Stopping this will take more than a handful of organizations - it will take public admonishment of the behavior and a great deal of education on the matter.  The current outcry is not enough.  It needs to be louder and far more reaching and more people, particularly those directly related to these cultures, need to invest themselves to the goal of eliminating this behavior.


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## Haruno Sakura (Jun 16, 2007)

Wing-Zero said:


> The man was crazy, and him being Muslim doesn't really have anything to do with it in my opinion.



Agreed. That kind of crazy can be found in any family.


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## Anaiya (Jun 16, 2007)

Wing-Zero said:


> The man was crazy, and him being Muslim doesn't really have anything to do with it in my opinion.





♥ Sakura ♥ said:


> Agreed. That kind of crazy can be found in any family.



Let's continue to turn a blind eye to the fact that thousands of women will die every year to honor killings prompted not only by their own families, but often entire communities and even their local lawmakers.  Let's ignore the fact that, while not _all_ Muslims believe in honor killings or the importance of the chastity of women to a family's honor, this type of behavior is predominant in many Muslim cultures because of the deep rooted traditions of gender inequality that often define the laws of these cultures.  It is often found in other cultures with similar traditions of gender inequality.

As long as people deny that this is a _cultural_ phenomena, it will never end.  This is not limited to individual families.  This is the ignorance of entire communities and even bodies of law.  As long as we pass this off as the act of one individual or even a handful of individuals, we aren't much better than those committing the crimes and we certainly are no better than the entire populations who simply look the other way and do nothing about it.


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## Freiza (Jun 16, 2007)

dang, thats too crazy man


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## Zabuzalives (Jun 16, 2007)

Anaiya said:


> I have to agree with DA that this is a cultural problem and one that should not be passed off as merely a handful of extremist psychos acting above the law.  This problem is not exclusive of Muslim cultures nor is it entirely inclusive of Muslim cultures, though it does tend to be predominant among certain Muslim cultures based in large part on a deep rooted tradition of gender inequality.  It is also a problem in many other cultures with similar traditions and the United Nations Population Fund, an organization that deals with these sorts of issues constantly, estimates that as many as 5,000 women die annually to "honor killings".  According to United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF), more than 5,000 women in India alone are victims of "dowry killings".  That is hardly a mere handful of extremists.  This is a damaging cultural phenomena.
> 
> As others have already stated, the Qur?an does not promote or even condone honor killings.  As a matter of fact, according to the Qur?an, sex outside of marriage (or, more appropriately, a legally binding union) is punishable for both men and women and, if I remember correctly, it is _not_ punishable by death.  In the Qur?an, punishment for illicit sexual behavior is not gender biased, but in real-world cultural honor killings such punishment is extremely gender biased.  This is much more a cultural phenomena than a religious one and can not be tied directly to any accurate teachings of Islam.
> 
> ...




great post. I always get a little too hotheaded when trying to explain these things against people who pretend it has nothing to do with culture and was just a lone psycho.  

reps!


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## The_Unforgiven (Jun 16, 2007)

> I would've leapt on it, but I happen to know that you're right. A good whipping is about the lot of it, no honour killings.



No whipping either. The limit is hitting with the siwak (a stick type thing that's used to clean the teeth).


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## Negative-Ion (Jun 16, 2007)

If this is the case of 1 lone psycho. then why was the uncle also involved and why there were other people alos involved? this wasnt the act of 1 person, the father alone, it was a well out carried plan with intentions to murder the girl by everyone that was on her fathers circle. Im sure being crazy or ill in the mind, is not some kind of disease that is passed by touching or talking to people.

So all these people they were not crazy as many of you claim. They were just to obsessed with their religious duties, they were afraid of change. That shows when the father said " she became to westernized" yet he lived in the west and inside another culture for more than 10 years. But it was his religion that did not let him change because his religion had him trapped in his culture.

At this point, culture and religion are as one in the islamic world. it is very hard to change 1 and maintain the other.

Also, theres many of us who blame him for the murder of his daughter, but theres even more people who praise him for the murder of his daughter.


----------



## Anaiya (Jun 16, 2007)

Negative-Ion said:


> So all these people they were not crazy as many of you claim. They were just to obsessed with their religious duties, they were afraid of change. That shows when the father said " she became to westernized" yet he lived in the west and inside another culture for more than 10 years. But it was his religion that did not let him change because his religion had him trapped in his culture.
> 
> At this point, culture and religion are as one in the islamic world. it is very hard to change 1 and maintain the other.
> 
> Also, theres many of us who blame him for the murder of his daughter, but theres even more people who praise him for the murder of his daughter.



I feel the need to repeat myself here:
_The Qur’an does not promote or even condone honor killings._  As a matter of fact, according to the Qur’an, sex outside of marriage (or, more appropriately, a legally binding union) is punishable for both men and women and, if I remember correctly, it is _not_ punishable by death.  In the Qur’an, punishment for illicit sexual behavior is not gender biased, but in real-world cultural honor killings such punishment is extremely gender biased.  *This is much more a cultural phenomena than a religious one and can not be tied directly to any accurate teachings of Islam.*

While religion influences culture, the two can be separately defined.  The only way this is tied to religion is by a very extreme exaggeration of the far more mild gender inequalities that exist within the religion itself.  In many cases, the Qur’an treats both males and females equally.  Males and females are equally punishable in cases of sexual misconduct according to the Qur’an.  The one main sexual inequality that does exist in the Qur’an is nothing more than that men can legally marry more than one woman while women must remain monogamous.  

The extreme and deep-rooted gender inequalities that exist today are _cultural_ and if we fail to make that distinction this will be nothing more than a verbal war of religions which drives people away from the real truth that must be realized if this is to ever stop.


----------



## The_X_box_360 (Jun 16, 2007)

Anaiya said:


> Let's continue to turn a blind eye to the fact that thousands of women will die every year to honor killings prompted not only by their own families, but often entire communities and even their local lawmakers.  Let's ignore the fact that, while not _all_ Muslims believe in honor killings or the importance of the chastity of women to a family's honor, this type of behavior is predominant in many Muslim cultures because of the deep rooted traditions of gender inequality that often define the laws of these cultures.  It is often found in other cultures with similar traditions of gender inequality.
> 
> As long as people deny that this is a _cultural_ phenomena, it will never end.  This is not limited to individual families.  This is the ignorance of entire communities and even bodies of law.  As long as we pass this off as the act of one individual or even a handful of individuals, we aren't much better than those committing the crimes and we certainly are no better than the entire populations who simply look the other way and do nothing about it.



Wow, there I was, seven pages deep into a thread full of nonsense posts with a few others that were just on the verge of having some meaning to them. Seeing that I only had two pages to go, I had begun to lose faith in what appeared to be yet another bs thread on muslim religion.... then...
BOOM!! a sensible post   
You deserve alot of those meaningless green-reps for that post.   

You've, beautifully, outlined something that is all too common in Islamic society and has even been demonstrated in this thread(repeatedly).

As any Muslim civil rights activist leader will tell you(civil rights activists *NOT* the radical/extremist/terrorist retarded psychos), one of the main reasons that such cultural defects still exist in Islamic society is, the fact that the overwhelming majority of Moderate Muslims are unwilling(too cowardly or lazy) to show unyielding intolerance for such grotesque cultural practices. While at the same time, non-muslims, who fancy themselves as defenders of muslim rights, seem to turn a blind eye(unless they are totally uneducated about the situation) to the fact that, not only are these practices a part of Islamic society, they have been a part of Islamic society for a very long time, as once was the case in much of western society, long ago.

At some point, Moderate Muslims and so-called non-muslim defenders of Muslim culture have to ask themselves just how much does their ignorant behavior perpetuate these continuing problems.....

Again, good post, man.


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## Tsukimaru (Jun 16, 2007)

hamoodi_19 said:


> Honour killings have nothing to do with islam. I challenge anyone, and I  will rep them everyday for 2 weeks straight to find me any verse of the quran, or hadith, or an action of the sahaba that says you must kill your daughter yourself if she commits adultry.



I second this. I don't claim an enormous knowledge of the Islamic faith, but I know that these atrocities don't appear in the Qur'an. They are a byproduct of misunderstanding and ignorance. So while some uneducated group of assholes might commit these ridiculous "honor killings", the fact that they are Muslim is irrelevant. Any bigot who claims otherwise is deluding themselves. 

My problem with people is when they start making bigoted or occasionally, derogatory comments towards _all_ Muslims and their faith. You see, it's when you start making ignorant generalities that you become just another fascist tool. It's disgusting.

So, I'll make it clear for anyone who's too daft to understand: *Honor killings have nothing to do with Islam. The groups of Muslims who act otherwise are doing so in contrast to its teachings.*


----------



## T4R0K (Jun 16, 2007)

You know, it's because of shit like this people are all "OMGWTF ???" when I tell them I'm muslim ('cause I'm from a caucasian people that turned muslim. I know I'm repeating myself, but many don't record it) 

I'm kinda tired of the "OMG, do you do this ? And that ? And that ?" and of course, all the questions are about what the 'tards are doing... Though, I'm also tired of the muslims acting stupid around me. Once, my step-father (mom's hubby) was at French 101 with an Algerian : "Hey, didya see that video lulz ?" on his mobile phone...

And it was Nick Berg's beheading. When it's not US Marines' convoys being blown up by side road AEDs...  Or also, their "comprehensive" understanding of Honor Killings or punishement gang rapes that happen in the suburbs. 
The idiocy of both sides makes me sick...

From some idiot westerners, I get put in the same bag as terros, and from some retardo muslims, it's as if this few lot reacts on purpose to what the westerners think. I once heard "I'm arab, so I'm expected to react so. So I do what they say I'm doing" when riots occured. Fucken' idiot kid... "And if the french TV said muslims eat babies, would you, retard ?" come to my mind after hearing that.


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## maj1n (Jun 16, 2007)

Honour killings is not explicitly supported by Islam.

However, the fact it is so prevalent in some Muslim societies is because of 2 factors.

1. They are exposed to said culture heavily
2. The islamic religion is congruent to honour killings, in other words, many factors which create honour killings is present in Islam.

They are:

-Treating women as objects 
-Treating women as below men

After all, a woman committing adultery in Islam is to be stoned to death, this is a very small step from honour killing, and really, if a family knows their daughter committed adultery and is to be stoned to death, it is a very small step when they kill her for fear of embarassment if they let it become a social event.


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## Konvict (Jun 17, 2007)

maj1n said:


> After all, a woman committing adultery in Islam is to be stoned to death, this is a very small step from honour killing, and really, if a family knows their daughter committed adultery and is to be stoned to death, it is a very small step when they kill her for fear of embarassment if they let it become a social event.



The same is true for a man.


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## Edo (Jun 17, 2007)

Konvict said:


> The same is true for a man.



But it never really happens to men, does it?

I know for a fact that this kind of killings are protected by law in certain countries in the middle east, hell they've even tried canceling such laws (protecting the murderers) but it failed to pass the congress 3times?!



> * Jordan: Part of article 340 of the Penal Code states that "he who discovers his wife or one of his female relatives committing adultery and kills, wounds, or injures one of them, is exempted from any penalty." This has twice been put forward for cancellation by the government, but was retained by the Lower House of the Parliament.
> 
> Countries that allow men to kill female relatives in flagrante delicto (but without premeditation) include:
> 
> ...


----------



## Anaiya (Jun 17, 2007)

Edo said:


> But it never really happens to men, does it?



It doesn't, which is why this issue is a cultural one and not a religious one.  I believe that was the point he was trying to make with that comment.  If it were a religious issue, both men and women would be punished equally as called for in the Qur?an.  This determination that only women are to be held accountable is cultural and defies the religious teachings of the Qur?an.


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## Edo (Jun 17, 2007)

^^ I agree, but it is really scary when you see that the law is on their side in certain countries!


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## Anaiya (Jun 17, 2007)

Edo said:


> ^^ I agree, but it is really scary when you see that the law is on their side in certain countries!



Yea it is.  You know, I recall a clip on which a representative from Jordan claimed that women had the option to find refuge if they feel they are in danger from their male family members under this law.  That got me furious.  Sure there is a refuge - they are allowed to check themselves into the _local prison_!  Oh, it gets better.  Once in prison, they are not able to check themselves out.  You know how they can get out?  A _male member_ of their family must come get them!  I find government sanctioned sadism of the utmost cruelty.


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## Negative-Ion (Jun 17, 2007)

Konvict said:


> The same is true for a man.



Where is that mentioned in the Quran, the fact that women can punish their husbands? For some reason only the vise versa is mentioned, the fact that men can punish their women.


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## Edo (Jun 17, 2007)

^^ I think he meant punishment in general for having a premarital affair.
It is mentioned in the Quran that the punishment for such an act is 40 wipes for him and for her.


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## Anaiya (Jun 17, 2007)

Edo said:


> It is mentioned in the Quran that the punishment for such an act is 40 wipes for him and for her.



Precisely - the punishment stated in the Qur'an for adultery is not gender biased.  Both parties of the affair are to be punished equally.


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## Constantine (Jun 17, 2007)

What the Fuck?! There's no such thing as "Honor Killings" in Islam, that's just plain murder, He should burn in hell for this shit, this 'Honor Killing' shit should be stopped!


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## Circe (Jun 18, 2007)

This is fail. London is becoming less appealing for me than it is at the moment..


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## Black Wraith (Jun 18, 2007)

To those who say that the punnishment for adultery is only fot women, I suggets that you read the Quran.
It says:
The* woman and the man* guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, *flog each of them with a hundred stripes*. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allâh, if you believe in Allâh and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. (This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime but if married persons commit it, the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allâh's Law).  (An-Nur 24:002)


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## Byakuya (Jun 18, 2007)

Unacceptable.


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## Black Wraith (Jun 18, 2007)

Byakuya said:


> Unacceptable.



Are you referig to the Quran verse or to the news?


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## isanon (Jun 18, 2007)

what a nice man ..... no not realy

he should be burned on a stake


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## Vegitto-kun (Jun 18, 2007)

mmm too harsh


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## Aruarian (Jun 18, 2007)

Vegitto-kun said:


> Brown pieces of shit should just go back to their shit infested countries
> 
> I don't tend to be racist but things like this make me feel disgusted at muslims and these immigrants



You are really truly and utterly retarded, aren't you? =/

Hey, a white man just robbed a liquor-store, let's all hate on all them whities! You're probably worth less than various immigrants and Muslims you feel disgusted with. There are nutters in every group, they do not act nor speak for the rest of them, they are individuals.


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## Vegitto-kun (Jun 18, 2007)

Lucifer the Light-bearer said:


> You are really truly and utterly retarded, aren't you? =/
> 
> Hey, a white man just robbed a liquor-store, let's all hate on all them whities! You're probably worth less than various immigrants and Muslims you feel disgusted with. There are nutters in every group, they do not act nor speak for the rest of them, they are individuals.



too bad alot of parents of the current muslim youth are completely extremist tards.

Honestly if a student hits my teacher and tells her his dad told him never to listen to a woman then something is seriously wrong


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## Fancy (Jun 18, 2007)

It's murderous intention and determined incentive built into one muscle to kill this woman. Many muslims have gone through marriage without consulting parents or any family members about acceptance of the partner. Basically, I'm stressing the point that not _all_ Islamic families go through traditional marriage arrangements.


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## Aruarian (Jun 18, 2007)

Vegitto-kun said:


> too bad most parents of the current muslim youth are completely extremist tards.
> 
> Honestly if a student hits my teacher and tells her his dad told him never to listen to a woman then something is seriously wrong


Show me statistics that prove this point of yours, prove to me that the majority of adult Muslims are extremists. You probably can't do this, as it's full of shite. Extremists are once again individuals. Of course there can be many of them, but they are rarely the majority. A large portion of the world doesn't always think through their actions thoroughly, you do the same with these retarded statements. 

And there are just different cultures on this planet. You can't just go 'oh, this doesn't compare well with my closed-minded point of view so it must be wrong!' That's just racist bullcrap. You probably seem to think that all Muslims do this extremist nonsense because that's all that's shown on the news, it gets ratings up but it's simply just a small fraction of actions undertaken, and in no way are they always a good example.


----------



## Tsukimaru (Jun 18, 2007)

Vegitto-kun said:


> Brown pieces of shit should just go back to their shit infested countries
> 
> I don't tend to be racist but things like this make me feel disgusted at muslims and these immigrants



...Wow. I tried, really, I did, but there's honestly no way I can respond to that, except to say that this was totally inappropriate. I find it hard to believe that you don't "tend to be racist" after seeing you write something so ridiculous.


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## Vegitto-kun (Jun 18, 2007)

Lucifer the Light-bearer said:


> Show me statistics that prove this point of yours, prove to me that the majority of adult Muslims are extremists. You probably can't do this, as it's full of shite. Extremists are once again individuals. Of course there can be many of them, but they are rarely the majority. A large portion of the world doesn't always think through their actions thoroughly, you do the same with these retarded statements.
> 
> And there are just different cultures on this planet. You can't just go 'oh, this doesn't compare well with my closed-minded point of view so it must be wrong!' That's just racist bullcrap. You probably seem to think that all Muslims do this extremist nonsense because that's all that's shown on the news, it gets ratings up but it's simply just a small fraction of actions undertaken, and in no way are they always a good example.



a shit load of individuals rofl.

you are taking this too seriously

but still, a culture where honor killings are quite normal is something I should mind with my "close minded point of view"

The most ironic thing is, my best friend is turkish rofl.


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## Aruarian (Jun 18, 2007)

Vegitto-kun said:


> a shit load of individuals rofl.
> 
> you are taking this too seriously
> 
> ...



All I'm getting from this post is "blablabla, can't back my statements up properly so I'm just going to dodge the issue and pretend that I wasn't serious".


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## Vegitto-kun (Jun 18, 2007)

Lucifer the Light-bearer said:


> All I'm getting from this post is "blablabla, can't back my statements up properly so I'm just going to dodge the issue and pretend that I wasn't serious".



You win a price.

I say alot of shit I cant back up when im pissed, I am pissed off at this article and since I have alot of trouble with muslims here I made that hasty remark.


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## Talone (Jun 18, 2007)

Another person lost in the cause of religious fanatacism....

This kind of thing isn't limited to only Islam...people do terrible things in the name of religion or a "righteous cause" all the time sadly.  I hate having to hear stories like "Mother drowns her children, told her God wanted her to do it."  And now this.

Anyone remember the Crusades...a series of religious wars which occured hundreds of years ago which are essentially the root for tensions between the Middle East and the West (United States and Europe) today.

It disappoints me to see that some people can believe that having to kill another innocent person can be done in the name of religion....it's just wrong, any way you slice it.  

I don't hate Muslims....I have great friends who are Muslim....but I do hate the ones who decide that to fulfill themselves in Islam is to martyring themselves and taking 100 people with them, and be considered a hero in Heaven.  Or, in this case, to murder a young girl, a CHILD, in the name of goddamn "honor"....That's taking it too far.

Islam is a religion that can be lived peacefully, just like any other religion, with no need to kill another person.  Some people just choose not to take that path.


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## Aruarian (Jun 18, 2007)

Considered the fact that you yourself are one of the reasons why relations with Islamic individuals don't fare well with you? And just because you got 'pissed off' at the article, it does not mean you can state anything you please and then pretend like it's alright.


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## Vegitto-kun (Jun 18, 2007)

Lucifer the Light-bearer said:


> Considered the fact that you yourself are one of the reasons why relations with Islamic individuals don't fare well with you? And just because you got 'pissed off' at the article, it does not mean you can state anything you please and then pretend like it's alright.



Honestly I do get along fine with muslimsn like I said my best friend is muslim and is turkish.

I just hate them goddamn idiots and 70% of the islamic youth in this country


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## Aruarian (Jun 18, 2007)

I'm going to leave at it this with the following sentence:

You calling anyone an idiot and then proceed to claim you hate them is irony worth quite a few chuckles, not to mention that you once again post bullshit statistics and use them for racistic purposes.


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## Robotkiller (Jun 18, 2007)

Every religion has its crazies. Honestly people, I expected better than you all to think every Muslim person is akin to this psychopath.

It's not like every Christian goes out and tries to convert others with violence, it's just a small sect....mostly.


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## Tsukimaru (Jun 18, 2007)

The moral of this story: Think before you post.


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## Vegitto-kun (Jun 18, 2007)

Lucifer the Light-bearer said:


> I'm going to leave at it this with the following sentence:
> 
> You calling anyone an idiot and then proceed to claim you hate them is irony worth quite a few chuckles, not to mention that you once again post bullshit statistics and use them for racistic purposes.



Sorry for being afraid of muslims spreading across my country like rabbits  .


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## Talone (Jun 18, 2007)

Vegitto-kun said:


> Sorry for being afraid of muslims spreading across my country like rabbits  .



And you WONDER why people are leery-eyed about your comments...

You're just simply ignorant, afraid of every memeber of a subgroup simply because of the ones glorified in the news.  You haven't met every Muslim, I doubt you have, so don't be so damn quick to judge.

You say you have Muslim friends?  Ask your Muslim friend how he would feel if you said that to him.  That his "kind" is spreading across "your country" akin to rabbits fornicating at hyperspeed.


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## kantami (Jun 18, 2007)

you should be allowed to fall in love with anyone you like regardless of your religion or theirs!!


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## Vegitto-kun (Jun 18, 2007)

Talone said:


> And you WONDER why people are leery-eyed about your comments...
> 
> You're just simply ignorant, afraid of every memeber of a subgroup simply because of the ones glorified in the news.  You haven't met every Muslim, I doubt you have, so don't be so damn quick to judge.
> 
> You say you have Muslim friends?  Ask your Muslim friend how he would feel if you said that to him.  That his "kind" is spreading across "your country" akin to rabbits fornicating at hyperspeed.



He agrees with me.

I judge on what I see

When I go to school, I see these muslim youth just sitting there dealing drugs, beating up anybody who looks at them for longer than a second. 

don't get me wrong, I am all for immigration but they have to adapt to the host country. not call our women whores and nearly kill guys who dare to look at muslim women.

This government of mine needs to be redone, send them back to their original country instead of arresting them and then releasing them the next day.

Ohoho you cant call them thieves else your being racist


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## Tsukimaru (Jun 18, 2007)

Vegitto-kun said:


> He agrees with me.



I call BS. No Muslim would be your friend if you were so quickly to call them "brown pieces of shit" and equate the promotion of Islam with the way animals fornicate. 

Moreover, you keep making ridiculously baseless generalities about Muslims, and yet keep trying to defend yourself by saying "I'm not a racist" and "I support immigration".

Face it: You're a complete bigot. Sieg heil.


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## Namicho (Jun 18, 2007)

*turning into another religion battlex.x*

That's so sad. I'm definitely thankful I don't have to fear for my life in my own house..


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## Vegitto-kun (Jun 18, 2007)

Tsukimaru said:


> I call BS. No Muslim would be your friend if you were so quickly to call them "brown pieces of shit" and equate the promotion of Islam with the way animals fornicate.
> 
> Moreover, you keep making ridiculously baseless generalities about Muslims, and yet keep trying to defend yourself by saying "I'm not a racist" and "I support immigration".
> 
> Face it: You're a complete bigot. Sieg heil.




I call the extremists brown pieces of shit.

And im not saying that the spreading of islam is wrong. Its just a fact that they are literally breeding like rabbits, At this rate belgium will be more marocan and turkish than dutch


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## Edo (Jun 18, 2007)

Vegitto-kun said:


> He agrees with me.
> 
> I judge on what I see
> 
> ...



how old are you?!! 10...11?!!

your posts make you sound stupid, sorry but they do!

You are from Belgium right?! so was it ok when your country was occupying other countries and using its resources, but now you complain about immigrants?!

You are generalizing....I _could_ do the same and say that all Belgians are racists and xenophobics based on your posts! but don't hate me, I have a very good friend from Belgium!


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## Vegitto-kun (Jun 18, 2007)

Edo said:


> how old are you?!! 10...11?!!
> 
> your posts make you sound stupid, sorry but they do!
> 
> ...



I am 19  

Us and every other single rich country, whats your point?

We did migrate to america at a point in time


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## Edo (Jun 18, 2007)

Vegitto-kun said:


> I am 19
> 
> Us and every other single rich country, whats your point?
> 
> We did migrate to america at a point in time



my point is that such countries caused the problem of immigration, so instead of complaining about it try and figure out what caused the problem and try finding solutions!


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## Tsukimaru (Jun 18, 2007)

Vegitto-kun said:


> I call the extremists brown pieces of shit.
> 
> And im not saying that the spreading of islam is wrong. Its just a fact that they are literally breeding like rabbits, At this rate belgium will be more marocan and turkish than dutch



I don't even know how to respond to this. If you supported immigration and weren't saying the spreading of Islam was wrong, you wouldn't make such contradictory comments. 

Stop trying to justify your blatant racism.


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## Aki Hyuuga (Jun 18, 2007)

hmm... no wonder yusef can't go out with me.. His father would kill him for dating an irish/italian.


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## Nick Soapdish (Jun 18, 2007)

Vegitto-kun said:


> I am 19
> 
> Us and every other single rich country, whats your point?
> 
> We did migrate to america at a point in time



The reference to occupying other countries is probably referring to Belgian Congo. Belgium stood out even above the other Western countries (at least at the time) in their abuses on the native populations.


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## Vegitto-kun (Jun 18, 2007)

Nick Soapdish said:


> The reference to occupying other countries is probably referring to Belgian Congo. Belgium stood out even above the other Western countries (at least at the time) in their abuses on the native populations.



and we said fuck safety when we bought italians for mines


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## Nick Soapdish (Jun 18, 2007)

Vegitto-kun said:


> and we said fuck safety when we bought italians for mines



How does that relate to my post?


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## Germscout (Jun 18, 2007)

Why would you kill your daughter because she didn't fall in love with the man who you wanted her to marry?  This "religeon" is an abomination that needs to be swept from this earth.


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## Fancy (Jun 18, 2007)

People don't seem to get the distinctiveness between religion and tradition.


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## Tsukimaru (Jun 18, 2007)

X_box: Take it easy with the colored font, mate. You're going to give me an epileptic seizure.  

I know I only speak for myself, but I wasn't defending the cultural issue of "honor killings" that may exist in Pakistan.  I was, however, defending the Muslims and their faith from people (like Ion and Vegitto) who make bigoted comments about all Muslims, declaring said "honor killings" as a doctrine of Islam despite having not even touched, let alone read, the Qur'an. Cultural practices != religion.

As for the rest of that, I'm not even going to get into it. If you want to discuss the morality of Islam, make another thread.


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## Vegitto-kun (Jun 18, 2007)

This is an awesome topic, honestly it is.


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## The_X_box_360 (Jun 18, 2007)

Tsukimaru said:


> X_box: Take it easy with the colored font, mate. You're going to give me an epileptic seizure.


If the font in my posts bothers you, put me on your ignore list.  



> I know I only speak for myself, but I wasn't defending the cultural issue of "honor killings" that may exist in Pakistan.  I was, however, defending the Muslims and their faith from people (like Ion and Vegitto) who make bigoted comments about all Muslims, declaring said "honor killings" as a doctrine of Islam despite having not even touched, let alone read, the Qur'an. Cultural practices != religion.


I don't recall referring to you or any posts that you have made. I don't really give much of a shit about anything that Ion or Vegitto has posted, that hurts your non-muslim feelings. Nothing in your posts has lead me to believe that you, yourself, have read the "Qur'an", quite the contrary, much of what you have posted has only highlighted your miseducation on Islamic society, and at times, lead me to believe that you occasionally talk out-of-your-ass.



> As for the rest of that, I'm not even going to get into it. If you want to discuss the morality of Islam, make another thread.


I have spoken nothing of the "morality of Islam", I have only talked about the proven facts of "Islamic society" and voiced my opinion on the official government and tribunal judgements that call for the execution of adulterers, and laws, such as the Hudood Ordinances, that focuses these penalties on the women who commit adultery. 
My posts have been nothing but ON-TOPIC, while yours at time have deteriorated to mindless, inaccurate, dribble. Perhaps, YOU are the one that should "start another thread". *points you to the blender*

Finally, don't confuse what has been posted by other members for something that I have said. I'm not easily misquoted.


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## Tsukimaru (Jun 18, 2007)

The_X_box_360 said:


> If the font in my posts bothers you, put me on your ignore list.



I was making a joke, but since you're so keen on acting like a douche, I'll comply.



The_X_box_360 said:


> I don't recall referring to you or any posts that you have made. I don't really give much of a shit about anything that Ion or Vegitto has posted, that hurts your non-muslim feelings. Nothing in your posts has lead me to believe that you, yourself, have read the "Qur'an", quite the contrary, much of what you have posted has only highlighted your miseducation on Islamic society, and at times, lead me to believe that you occasionally talk out-of-your-ass.



Why the hostility?

You didn't refer directly to me. Actually, you didn't refer directly to _anyone_. That's the problem. You just said "many of the posters in this thread". I was elaborating on my own posts, since you weren't kind enough to be specific. Moreover, I don't believe I was discussing "Islamic society" in my posts, so your snide remark is irrelevant.



The_X_box_360 said:


> I have spoken nothing of the "morality of Islam"



Orly?



			
				The_X_box_360 said:
			
		

> Finally, one type of "killing" that I find even more repulsive than "Honor Killing" is state/court/mosque/cleric/tribunal ordered execution for the crime of adultery.



Unless you're saying that being stoned to death for adultery isn't a part of Islam, or more specifically, the Qur'an, this seems like your opinion on its morality.


----------



## The_X_box_360 (Jun 18, 2007)

Tsukimaru said:


> Unless you're saying that being stoned to death for adultery isn't a part of Islam, or more specifically, the Qur'an, this seems like your opinion on its morality.


It seems that you missed the line in my post were I said, "I'm not easily misquoted", in addition to not reading the two "Honor Killing" articles that I linked to, in a previous post, before you replied to that previous post... It seems you don't require such information when talking out-of-your-ass.

Allow me to post the entire statement that you so childishly chopped...


> I have spoken nothing of the "morality of Islam", I have only talked about the proven facts of "Islamic society" and voiced my opinion on the official government and tribunal judgements that call for the execution of adulterers, and laws, such as the Hudood Ordinances, that focuses these penalties on the women who commit adultery.


The fact that you would so easily view such a statement as a comment on the morals of Islam, not only says a lot about your true feelings about Islam, it also highlights just how full-of-crap all of your previous posts were. (do you ever NOT talk out-of-your-ass?)

Furthermore, I'm tempted to thank you for adding me to your "ignore list", for the simple fact that, I've found this discussion with you to be akin to explaining World Politics to a know-it-all adolescent.


----------



## Tsukimaru (Jun 18, 2007)

EDIT: This is going way off topic. You, X_Box, claim that I'm "talking out of my ass" when it comes to this supposed "Islamic culture" in my _previous_ posts, despite them not being about said "Islamic culture". You then proceed to make a few uncalled-for snide remarks.

If you actually want to go back and see what I posted, you'll know all I discussed was "honor killings", and then debated with a few people over the issue of why they shouldn't make generalities about all Muslims because of what the man who perpetrated the crime claimed to be his faith.


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## HyperKnuckles22 (Jun 18, 2007)

> My posts here have all been regarding "honor killings" and saying that it's ridiculous of HyperKnuckles to claim that all Muslims support al-Qaeda because of the Qur'an.



i didnt say ALL muslims supported alqaeda, i meant alot, because, if they didnt have that many supporters, they wouldnt be much of a threat. and the deal with the Quran is that, according to different people i know whove read it, They all had a different take on it. Ive talked to a muslim neighbour of mine and he said this trouble stems from the fact that anyone can interpretate the Quran anyway they wish, meaning that someone could easily use it to support killing. 

Ps. Xbox 360 since you repped me, i rep ya back.


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## Black Wraith (Jun 18, 2007)

I quote myself so that people who don't like to read the previous posts can see that the punnishment for Zina is for both male and female.


Black Fenix said:


> To those who say that the punnishment for adultery is only fot women, I suggets that you read the Quran.
> It says:
> The* woman and the man* guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, *flog each of them with a hundred stripes*. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allâh, if you believe in Allâh and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. *(This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime but if married persons commit it, the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allâh's Law)*.  (An-Nur 24:002)



It's upto you whether you like/dislike the death penalty. Do not use your (Western) ideology to judge Islam. If you do want to judge Islam I suggest you do it from an objective point of view. You are not bound by the laws of Islam if you are not a Muslim.

I'm getting a little pissed off at this thread, no-one here looks at the difference between a Had and 'honor killing'.


----------



## The_X_box_360 (Jun 18, 2007)

Tsukimaru said:


> The statement I viewed as your comment on the morals of Islam was
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And where in that statement do you view a comment on the morals Islam "or, more specifically, the Quran".

Lets highlight exactly why this post of yours is full of crap, and where you talk out-of-your-ass. (since you seem to be oblivious)
You have repeatedly attacked posters in this thread, because you felt that they were equating the "Honor Killing" carried out by one Muslim with the practices/beliefs of an entire religion/people. 
THEN... you turn around and equate my criticism of unfair executions ordered by Muslim clerics, tribe leaders, other Muslim religious leaders and government officials with criticism of the fundamentals of Islam and the Quran.....  
Hypocrite much? 


This past statement of mine continues to hold true......





> Originally Posted by *The_X_box_360 *
> Furthermore, I'm tempted to thank you for adding me to your "ignore list", for the simple fact that, I've found this discussion with you to be akin to explaining World Politics to a know-it-all adolescent.


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## Tsukimaru (Jun 18, 2007)

The_X_box_360 said:


> Lets highlight exactly why this post of yours is full of crap, and where you talk out-of-your-ass. (since you seem to be oblivious)
> You have repeatedly attacked posters in this thread, because you felt that they were equating the "Honor Killing" carried out by one Muslim with the practices/beliefs of an entire religion/people.
> THEN... you turn around and equate my criticism of unfair executions ordered by Muslim clerics, tribe leaders, other Muslim religious leaders and government officials with criticism of the fundamentals of Islam and the Quran.....
> Hypocrite much?



My "attacks" on the posters were because their equations and subsequent bigoted comments were _baseless,_ using only the fact that he was a Muslim, and therefore, all Muslims must be this way.

My claim that your remark was criticizing Islamic fundamentals is not even remotely similar, especially since I assumed, perhaps mistakenly, that you had read what had been posted on the page before, and which Fenix quoted just above your last post:



Black Fenix said:


> To those who say that the punnishment for adultery is only fot women, I suggets that you read the Quran.
> It says:
> The* woman and the man* guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, *flog each of them with a hundred stripes*. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allâh, if you believe in Allâh and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. (This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime but if married persons commit it, the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allâh's Law).  (An-Nur 24:002)



Note the blue font.

The execution of married men/women who commit adultery IS a fundamental belief of Islam, and thus



			
				The_X_box_360 said:
			
		

> Finally, one type of "killing" that I find even more repulsive than "Honor Killing" is state/court/mosque/cleric/tribunal ordered execution for the crime of adultery.



-is also criticism of Islamic morality.


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## Black Wraith (Jun 18, 2007)

Tsukimaru said:


> Note the blue font.


That's what it says.


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## Tsukimaru (Jun 18, 2007)

Black Fenix said:


> That's what it says.



Yep. And as such, I think that if he wants to discuss which Islamic beliefs he finds "repulsive", he should make a separate thread.


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## The_X_box_360 (Jun 18, 2007)

Tsukimaru said:


> My "attacks" on the posters were because their equations and subsequent bigoted comments were _baseless,_ using only the fact that he was a Muslim, and therefore, all Muslims must be this way.
> 
> My claim that your remark was criticizing Islamic fundamentals is not even remotely similar, especially since I assumed, perhaps mistakenly, that you had read what had been posted on the page before, and which Fenix quoted just above your last post:


And yet again, you demonstrate your closed-minded ignorance by revealing the fact that you paid no attention to this past statement of mine that was directed towards you.... 





> Finally, don't confuse what has been posted by other members for something that I have said.


What another member has posted, does nothing to change the intended meaning of something that I have posted. To read additional meaning into one of my posts, beyond what has been written, based on what another member posted, is idiocy. At the very least, an intelligent individual would ask for "clarification" before jumping to such a retarded conclusion.



> The execution of married men/women who commit adultery IS a fundamental belief of Islam, and thus
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted by *The_X_box_360*
> ...


My statement, at most, is a criticism of certain "Islamic societies". It is not a criticism of true Islam and the true teachings of the Quran.

You are simply speaking grotesque misinterpretations of the Quran, out-of-your-ass.... (nothing new there, eh?). Such beliefs are NOT a part of the true fundamental beliefs of Islam, and are NOT practiced by true "Moderate-Muslims" or Moderate-Muslim governments. 
You only further highlight your miseducation of Islamic culture and demonstrate your superb talent to, ignorantly, spew inaccuracies out-of-your-ass.



This past statement of mine STILL continues to hold true....





> Originally Posted by *The_X_box_360 *
> Furthermore, I'm tempted to thank you for adding me to your "ignore list", for the simple fact that, I've found this discussion with you to be akin to explaining World Politics to a know-it-all adolescent.


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## Amaretti (Jun 18, 2007)

Hokay, I think we're capable of making our points without resorting to needless insults and condescending asides. Remember to keep things respectful, guys.


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## Vegitto-kun (Jun 19, 2007)

Amaretti said:


> Hokay, I think we're capable of making our points without resorting to needless insults and condescending asides. Remember to keep things respectful, guys.



The internets is serious business


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## matsuo (Jun 19, 2007)

Vegitto-kun said:


> The internets is serious business



I may need a microscope to pinpoint the seriousness in your post, though.


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## Zabuzalives (Jun 19, 2007)

My question then: If its not in the Q'uran, then why is gender inequality and intolerance SO widespread in many muslim cultures/countries?


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## T4R0K (Jun 19, 2007)

Zabuzalives said:


> My question then: If its not in the Q'uran, then why is gender inequality and intolerance SO widespread in many muslim cultures/countries?



Patriarchy.

It's as simple as one word. And it is not limited to Islamic Culture.

Note that I don't condone it. I prefer equality than a gender above the other (some matriarchies can be evenly annoying, but you don't find a lot of them)


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## The_X_box_360 (Jun 19, 2007)

Zabuzalives said:


> My question then: If its not in the Q'uran, then why is gender inequality and intolerance SO widespread in many muslim cultures/countries?


While, T4R0K's answer to your question is acceptable and says something of the history of gender inequality in Islamic society as well as most other societies; a more accurate response to your question would be.... "It's strongly implied/emphasized in the 'hadith', time after time".


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## Hitomi (Jun 19, 2007)

Don't stick some culture acts to the Islamic religion please! Some people even carry out these kinds of honor killings without being very religious; it has something to do with culture trust me. 

As matter of fact when Islam first spread in the Arabian Peninsula the Arabs there used to kill their infant daughters by burying them alive for fear of poverty or staining their honor when they grow up and the Holy Quran forbidden them from doing so anymore. 

And regarding what the Holy Quran says about adultery punishment there's an essential thing that has to be there for the punishment to take place and it's "witnesses" and not only one or two witnesses but four adult respected and well known for truthfulness witnesses! Now who's in their right mind would go and have sex with another human being and have four -adult respected and well known for truthfulness- people watch him in the act itself hmm?!! Yes, they have to see the act takes place and not only say: Well? umm? we've seen them go to the bedroom together? or heard their moans or that kind of crap! These four witnesses _HAVE_ to see the act itself and swear on the Holy Quran for the punishment to take place _OR_ on the other hand the offenders themselves could come clean and admit what they did, and if only one admitted his/her guilt then the punishment will be executed on that one person only nothing will happen to the other one if he/she didn't confess! 

See how strict the rules are because of how strict the punishment is. It's not executed just like that without the accurate guidelines unless the one who's executing it is acting according to his/her own interpreted sense of honor. 

So stop nitpicking to back up your own opinion of the Islamic religion, cause no matter what you think of it it's the fastest growing religion in the world, that didn't come from being flawed my friend. 

You people amaze me with your heated opinions, you know it shows how much you fear this religion and you fear that it'll someday come knocking on your door lol! Try reading about it a little before you fear it, maybe you'll realize that there's nothing to fear about it, didn't that thought ever cross your mind? Peace.


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## Kaki (Jun 20, 2007)

> My question then: If its not in the Q'uran, then why is gender inequality and intolerance SO widespread in many muslim cultures/countries?


My question then: Why is gender inequality so widespread in humans? Probably something todo with man's strength and penis and different hormones. It's a subject that interests and excites me.


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## Zabuzalives (Jun 20, 2007)

Snow Princess said:


> Don't stick some culture acts to the Islamic religion please! Some people even carry out these kinds of honor killings without being very religious; it has something to do with culture trust me.
> 
> As matter of fact when Islam first spread in the Arabian Peninsula the Arabs there used to kill their infant daughters by burying them alive for fear of poverty or staining their honor when they grow up and the Holy Quran forbidden them from doing so anymore.
> 
> ...



Good post but about the last part
""Try reading about it a little before you fear it, maybe you'll realize that there's nothing to fear about it, didn't that thought ever cross your mind? ""

Its not the (moderate) Islam im worried about. Its the (twisted) Islam according to the radical muslims who think honour killing and terrorism is ok. 

You can say thats not really Islam, but for many ""muslims"" it apparentely is.


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