# Strongest SM-Jiriaya Can Beat



## Turrin (Nov 11, 2014)

So DBIV reveals that Jiriaya could use Kawazu Kumite, which is the technique that enables  Sennin Modo sensing and the ability to release natural energy to form different parts of ones body to increase their attacking range. So now that Jiriaya can use these abilities just like Naruto, does his standings increase.

Starting Distance: 20m
Location: VOTE
Mind-Set: IC, but to kill

Go


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 11, 2014)

I'd say this would increase his odds against taijutsu users, or people who tend to get extremely close to him. 

So with full knowledge, he could defeat Sandaime Raikage.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 11, 2014)

He starts in SM and will use it in-character here?

(Why didn't he use it when Pain was dodging and catching his punches?)


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## Nurito (Nov 11, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> (Why didn't he use it when Pain was dodging and catching his punches?)



He didn't?

wow. guess Kishi didn't come up with it until Naruto vs Pain.


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## Turrin (Nov 11, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> He starts in SM and will use it in-character here?
> 
> (Why didn't he use it when Pain was dodging and catching his punches?)


Pain caught one of his punches, than Jiriaya fell back and came up with the Genjutsu strategy. Most likely he would have used it if the Genjutsu strat didn't generate the most viable option to take down all three.


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## Jad (Nov 11, 2014)

Exactly. One of the pains succesfully blocked his punch with ease.


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## JuicyG (Nov 11, 2014)

SM Jiraiya can win against the following a # of times out of 10 :

Itachi
Kisame
MS Sasuke
3rd Raikage

SM Jiraiya can win large majority of matches against:

Hebi Sasuke
Hidan
Kakuzu
Orochimaru (w/out ET)


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 11, 2014)

Based upon my list Jiraiya wouldn't leap up a whole tier , but I would consider him very close to Tobirama's level of strength , I know he certainly beats any version of Itachi thats for sure


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## Nurito (Nov 11, 2014)

No one that Jiraiya couldn't already beat comes to mind really.



Eliyua23 said:


> I know he certainly beats any version of Itachi thats for sure



sorry no.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 11, 2014)

Jad said:


> Exactly. One of the pains succesfully blocked his punch with ease.



I think ghost hits don't work when you block a hit, because they are like the extension of your limb. Deva was able to block Naruto's kick as well.


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## Kazekage94 (Nov 11, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> SM Jiraiya can win against the following a # of times out of 10 :
> 
> Itachi
> Kisame
> ...



Umm no
He beats only Hidan and Kakuzu (maybe)
Along with Orochimaru
That's it. The first 4 stomp him.


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## Turrin (Nov 11, 2014)

Nurito said:


> sorry no.


Why not exactly. Sennin Modo Sensing allows Jiriaya to sense when Itachi is going to use Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, and he can simply block eye contact or attack him disrupting the technique. It's essentially the exact same power Kabuto was using to counter Itachi's Genjutsu and Amaterasu w/o issue. It also allows him to dodge around high speed attacks, like Susnao'o, again Kabuto was using the same power to dodge around Susano'o in his fight with Sasuke and Itachi. In-fact he's better than Kabuto because Fukasaku can also use it so that's two people sensing out Itachi's attacks at any given time, so if one is distracted the other can pick up the slach. Additionally he can further slow down or disrupt Itachi's attacks with Fusaku and Shima's Senpou Frog Call, which moves a tremendous speed and can paralyze the victim according to the DB. And he only needs to survive long enough to get off Frog-Song because given how Itachi needed help to escape the Senpou version of Tayuya's Genjutsu, he's done for if he is hit by Frog-Song. 

To me it has become more like the reverse, I don't really see how Itachi would win against SM-Jiriaya.


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## JuicyG (Nov 11, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Umm no
> He beats only Hidan and Kakuzu (maybe)
> Along with Orochimaru
> That's it. The first 4 stomp him.



I didnt list a single shinobi that _would or could_ stomp Sm Jiraiya. You understimate him, he died fighting with _no knowledge_ against Pain, and people like you dog him for that. None of those listed would beat Pain without knowledge


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 11, 2014)

Turrin said:


> To me it has become more like the reverse, I don't really see how Itachi would win against SM-Jiriaya.



Oneshot him Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi or Totsuka ? 

Itachi can bunshin feint a perfect Snake Sage, who has fuckloads better sensing feats than Jiraiya or anyone else for that matter.

I am not sure if you are serious or not


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## JuicyG (Nov 11, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Oneshot him Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi or Totsuka ?
> 
> Itachi can bunshin feint a perfect Snake Sage, who has fuckloads better sensing feats than Jiraiya or anyone else for that matter.
> 
> I am not sure if you are serious or not




I think he's speaking of living Itachi.

I think Edo Itachi is clearly above Jiraiya


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## Turrin (Nov 11, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Oneshot him Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi or Totsuka ?
> 
> Itachi can bunshin feint a perfect Snake Sage, who has fuckloads better sensing feats than Jiraiya or anyone else for that matter.
> 
> I am not sure if you are serious or not


Being a perfect Sage just means you can achieve a better balance of natural, spiritual, and physical energy, it has nothing to do with sensing.

Jiriaya can sense when Itachi is going to use Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi and counter him thanks to his ability with Kawazu Kumite.

Susano'o can also be dodged if someone's speed is high enough and they have SM sensing. Jiriaya has SM sensing because he can use Kawazu Kumite. His speed in Sennin Modo is at least as good as Kabuto's or perhaps better. Kabuto had a 3.5  in speed and even if her inherit Orochimaru's speed which a 4.5 due to integration, that would only put him on par with Jiriaya. 

Itachi KB fiented Kabuto when he was distracted by the attacks of two Susano'o users, so it's not a comparable situation. And what did that really amount to, and insignificant injury?

And I do not see why Kabuto would be a better sensor. He has the same sensing skills that Jiriaya has. If anything Jiriaya is more equipped to sense the enemies attacks because he has SM-Sensing, Fukasaku also has SM Sensing, has motion detection barrier, and has biological detection via Shima's tongue. Kabuto has SM sensing, but he's not going to be as good as two people using it, and he has heat detection through the snakes, which isn't as good as Ma's biological detection; and he doesn't have a motion detection barrier. So how is the guy better, just because?


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## Legendary Itachi (Nov 11, 2014)

Why didn't he use against Pain? If a Path can block his punch, he should know that an invisible one can work perfectly. Instead he resist to Frog Song immediately, which's far more risky than Frog Kata.


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## Complete_Ownage (Nov 11, 2014)

He's still around Itachi level...nothing has changed


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## JuicyG (Nov 11, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> He's still around Itachi level...nothing has changed




I think as of now its;

*Edo Itachi > SM Jiraiya >= Healthy Itachi > Sick Itachi > Base Jiraiya*


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## Sadgoob (Nov 11, 2014)

I still don't see why people deny that Itachi can control Fukasaku or Shima to kill Jiraiya. The Sharingan's been shown to control animals or even tailed beasts, and Itachi's forte is genjutsu control.

Plus there's a pretty huge gap in how cautious and intelligent each individual is, which would result in Jiraiya's death either way IMO.

And Turrin, we've seen Jiraiya's lack of ability relative to Naruto's against Pain already. Assuming they're equally evasive because they're both listed as technique users is incorrect.​


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## Legendary Itachi (Nov 11, 2014)

Actually rethink it, if Jiraiya truly has Kawazu Kumite why the hell is he only listed as the user now, not in DB3 which includes all the content of his final battle. 

Either Jiraiya is too arrogant to use some Sage power against Pain, or Kishit (or his editors) just throw this stuff out of no where again.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 11, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Being a perfect Sage just means you can achieve a better balance of natural, spiritual, and physical energy, it has nothing to do with sensing.
> 
> Jiriaya can sense when Itachi is going to use Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi and counter him thanks to his ability with Kawazu Kumite.
> 
> ...




Again, Jiraiya has literally 0 sensing feats. So no, I am not going to transfer all of Kabuto's feats to him, thats just crazy lol. Kabuto has shown better evasion and sensory feats than anyone else in the manga, bar may be Kaguya fight Naruto.

The best I can do to Jiraiya is that, I can transfer Naruto's feats to him, and scale them according th his mastery of SM. Since he is imperfect, his SM feats should be inferior as well.

All in all, it doesn't change anything regarding this match up. He can't fight eyes closed, because there is no evidence that he can fight effectively like that. So Tsukiyom is still a game ender.
He can't dodge Amaterasu, because he doesn't have the body speed to be able to do so, even if we grant him the capability of sensing before hand.

And Itachi can distract him with Magatama like he did to Kabuto, and then land Amaterasu or Totsuka.
Itachi has shown that he can bypass Rinnegan's shared vision, Kabuto's sensory abilities. Jiraiya is inferior to both. He still doesn't stand a chance.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 11, 2014)

So let me get this straight. With what little was translated DB4 already showed numerous factual errors(Danzo and Kabuto not being listed as Summoners, Cloud who was trying to kidnap Kushina was listed as Mist). Yet we are completely buying other things that might be also wrong? As long as those things allow people to say "told you so!" ?

It is possible that Kishimoto retconed Sage Mode abilities but it is still unclear. And using faulty DB doesn't really help.


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## Turrin (Nov 11, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> I still don't see why people deny that Itachi can control Fukasaku or Shima to kill Jiraiya. The Sharingan's been shown to control animals or even tailed beasts, and Itachi's forte is genjutsu control.
> 
> Plus there's a pretty huge gap in how cautious and intelligent each individual is, which would result in Jiraiya's death either way IMO.
> 
> And Turrin, we've seen Jiraiya's lack of ability relative to Naruto's against Pain already. Assuming they're equally evasive because they're both listed as technique users is incorrect.​



Where was Jiraiya shown to not be able to evade an attacks that Naruto could? And yes Stragoob that's exactly what it means as the mechanics of Kawazu Kumite demand the user be able to read the opponents attacks preemptively and than counter them, if both have learned the skill, which they have, there is no good reason for Naruto to be way better at that in Sennin Modo than Jiriaya is. Naruto's Base-Speed is in-fact less than Jiriaya's, so if anything Jiriaya is better. 

Controlling Fukasaku and Shima is absolutely silly when both Fukasaku and Jiriaya can sense when Itachi's about to use Genjutsu and take premptive action to counter it. That's what it means to be a Kawazu Kumite user; the ability to sense the enemies attacks and counter attack/defend them. 

The only way that would not work is if despite sensing the attack preemptively, it was still too fast for them to do anything in response to it. But we know that in the case of Itachi level attacks that is not true. From the moment of build up until the release of an Itachi MS technique there is more than enough time to take defensive measures. That's not to say it literally makes it impossible for Itachi to land these techniques, but it makes it insanely difficult, just as it was against Kabuto.



Alex Payne said:


> So let me get this straight. With what little was translated DB4 already showed numerous factual errors(Danzo and Kabuto not being listed as Summoners, Cloud who was trying to kidnap Kushina was listed as Mist). Yet we are completely buying other things that might be also wrong? As long as those things allow people to say "told you so!" ?
> 
> It is possible that Kishimoto retconed Sage Mode abilities but it is still unclear. And using faulty DB doesn't really help.


It's one thing to forget something, and it's another thing to totally add something that is not true. And there is no good reason not to believe it, other than people not wanting to get "told you so'd". It makes perfect sense that Jiriaya would have learned Kawazu Kumite and the necessary abilities to perform it. 

In reality this just seems like yet another in the long list of excuses that people tell themselves and others to not accept that Jiriaya can indeed defeat Itachi. I mean how many excuses is it at this point, that are necessary to avoid that obvious conclusion lol.


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## Turrin (Nov 11, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Again, Jiraiya has literally 0 sensing feats. So no, I am not going to transfer all of Kabuto's feats to him, thats just crazy lol. Kabuto has shown better evasion and sensory feats than anyone else in the manga, bar may be Kaguya fight Naruto.


Jiriaya's sensing feat is that he can use Kawazu Kumite, which i'm telling you it's stated mechanics necessitate the same Sennin Modo sensing Kabuto utilized against Itachi. So why would we not give Jiriaya Kabuto's feats, when they are using the exact same ability? 

It's like Person A and Person B use the same Rasengan, and than we say, but Person B's Rasnegan creates fluffy feathers instead of damaging the enemy. The way the jutsu works necessitates a certain ability, and that ability is to sense the enemies attack. Therefore Jiriaya can sense Itachi's attacks beforehand. The only reason he'd be worse at evading or counter them than Kabuto or Naruto, would be if the Jutsu he had at his disposal to counter them were less sufficient or if his physical abilities were much lower; the latter is outright not true, and the former is a different discussion entirely.



> The best I can do to Jiraiya is that, I can transfer Naruto's feats to him, and scale them according th his mastery of SM. Since he is imperfect, his SM feats should be inferior as well.


Which is de-facto the same ability Kabuto uses as well; Naruto, Kabuto, and Jiriaya all use the same ability. Where does the manga stated that an imperfect SM is inferior in Sensing? 



> All in all, it doesn't change anything regarding this match up. He can't fight eyes closed, because there is no evidence that he can fight effectively like that.


Again the stated mechanics of Kawazu Kumite say that he can. If he can sense the enemies attack to the extent where he can perfectly predict it and match the enemies pace, there is no reason he can't fight blind; every sage has done it. Heck even Jiriaya perfectly target Human realm with his vision blocked by a smoke screen in the Pain fight.



> He can't dodge Amaterasu, because he doesn't have the body speed to be able to do so, even if we grant him the capability of sensing before hand.


Why is Kabuto faster than Jiriaya? But even with that aside he doesn't have to dodge he can use Jutsu to disrupt Itachi or block LOS. And even if by some miracle it hits, he can release natural energy from that part of his body to push the flames off, as Kawazu Kumite allows the users to release natural energy from any part of the body, not just ones fist. There is no good reason he can't counter this, and given the way it's be trolled time and time again, I don't see why anyone would ever doubt that he can.



> And Itachi can distract him with Magatama like he did to Kabuto, and then land Amaterasu or Totsuka


Again him and Sasuke distracted Kabuto



> Itachi has shown that he can bypass Rinnegan's shared vision, Kabuto's sensory abilities. Jiraiya is inferior to both. He still doesn't stand a chance.


He didn't bypass Shared vision, he threw Kunai at the eyes of Nagato's summons breaking the link. He can't throw Kunai at Jiriaya's sensing abilities. 

Kabuto's sensor abilities are the same as Jiriaya's; Sennin Modo sensing, and those abilities allowed Kabuto to evade Itachi at every juncture, except for when Itachi and Sasuke were double teaming him.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 11, 2014)

This was a disguised itachi vs sm jiraiya thread 

A failed one at that.


Itachi smacks around jiraiya in any fair circumstance fight nothing has changed.

He's  a imperfect sage and his sensing feats speaks for itself dude was blindsided by a path and his sensing did him no justice, my guess is he's  not surviving a suprise amatarasu by any means

And if where giving jiraiya perfect sage's feats im giving itachi all of madara's v4 feats


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## JuicyG (Nov 11, 2014)

General BD logic involving Itachi;

Jiraiya gets beat and blindsided by Pain, therefore Itachi beats Jiraiya with ease lmao 

SM Jiraiya can beat or put a extreme diff fight with Itachi par Edo Itachi & feats.

*Imperfect Sage does not  = Lesser version in combat *


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## Kai (Nov 11, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> *Imperfect Sage does not  = Lesser version in combat *


It does, as Jiraiya is at his most vulnerable when he prepares to enter Sage Mode whereas a perfect Sage doesn't have to worry about that liability.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 11, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> General BD logic involving Itachi;
> 
> Jiraiya gets beat and blindsided by Pain, therefore Itachi beats Jiraiya with ease lmao
> 
> ...



Way to generlize and misinterprete my arguement 

That was to address his sensing abilities there obviously not top notch if he gets blindsided by a path and amatarasu is faster then human paths taijutsu so why wouldn't a suprise amatarasu work??


Imperfect sage means alot actually and sage mode abilities obviously will vary from person to person.


Why would jiraiaya and naruto have the same exact sensing abilities?? All sensors are not the same and sensing is obviously a type of skill as noted by tobirama telling his brother he is better at sensing then he is.


Naruto has proven his sensing abilities and kishi went out of his way to highlight them, jiraiya on the other hand has not ck


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## JuicyG (Nov 11, 2014)

Kai said:


> It does, as Jiraiya is at his most vulnerable when he prepares to enter Sage Mode whereas a perfect Sage doesn't have to worry about that liability.




*And that is as far as it goes. But in this thread we are to assume Jiraiya is already in SM form. Which means there is no difference in combat.*

@ BKprince 

Judging by Turrin's assessment of the new information from DB, its time to think other wise. Why would Jiraiya be the only sage unable to have sensing ? This new information has confirmed he does in fact have them. And being imperfect means nothing more than your looks are f'd up.


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## J★J♥ (Nov 11, 2014)

If he starts in sm he has shot at anyone below Juubi jins.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 11, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Jiriaya's sensing feat is that he can use Kawazu Kumite, which i'm telling you it's stated mechanics necessitate the same Sennin Modo sensing Kabuto utilized against Itachi. So why would we not give Jiriaya Kabuto's feats, when they are using the exact same ability?


Because you are assuming they have the exact same body speed and agility and Jiraiya's sensory abilities are on par with Kabuto's, which certainly aren't, considering he had to be warned by Pa when human realm tried to blindside him and he couldn't even sense Asura coming behind him. In otherwords, either Kishimoto didn't think about sensory abilities @ that point, or Jiraiya's sensory abilities are non existant due to his imperfect sage mode.

Come on man 




> Which is de-facto the same ability Kabuto uses as well; Naruto, Kabuto, and Jiriaya all use the same ability. Where does the manga stated that an imperfect SM is inferior in Sensing?


The Manga didn't explicitly say that an Imperfect Sage has inferior sensing feats to a perfect sage. It didn't have to, because it is common sense. 
Thats like asking whether 2 tomoe sharingan is superior to a single tomoe sharingan or not.

Sage mode's power comes from balancing Nature energy. Naruto does it better, thus his sage mode is stronger.
Are you implying  that there is absolutely no difference between someone who has perfect mastery of SM and someone who doesn't ? It makes no sense.



> Again the stated mechanics of Kawazu Kumite say that he can. If he can sense the enemies attack to the extent where he can perfectly predict it and match the enemies pace, there is no reason he can't fight blind; every sage has done it. Heck even Jiriaya perfectly target Human realm with his vision blocked by a smoke screen in the Pain fight.


His vision wasn't perfectly blocked, because if it was, then the other Pain outside the smoke screen wouldn't be able to see him, which he did, that means Jiraiya could see as well.




> Why is Kabuto faster than Jiriaya?


Feats.
Whats the fastest attack Jiraiya dodged ? Whats his best speed feat ? Why would anyone automatically assume he is fast as Kabuto ? 



> But even with that aside he doesn't have to dodge he can use Jutsu to disrupt Itachi or block LOS. And even if by some miracle it hits, he can release natural energy from that part of his body to push the flames off,




No. 

Nature energy doesn't work like a bijuu shroud.




> Again him and Sasuke distracted Kabuto


No, re-read the manga.
Itachi alone distracts Kabuto with 4 magatama and Sasuke follows up with the arrow which Kabuto can't dodge. That means the magatama, aka Itachi, did the distracting.



> He didn't bypass Shared vision, he threw Kunai at the eyes of Nagato's summons breaking the link. He can't throw Kunai at Jiriaya's sensing abilities.


I gave it as an example to show that Itachi was capable of perfectly bypassing both Rinnegan's field of vision and Sage sensing. So with that in mind, assuming that Jiraiya counters everything Itachi throws @ him perfectly is a bit of a stretch, but Itachi actually getting past sage sensing isn't.

Itachi has the better odds based on display.



> Kabuto's sensor abilities are the same as Jiriaya's; Sennin Modo sensing, and those abilities allowed Kabuto to evade Itachi at every juncture, except for when Itachi and Sasuke were double teaming him.


Only that Jiraya's sensory abilities were never mentioned or shown, and Kabuto's were hyped to another level.

Thats like comparing Sasuke's early summit arc MS display to Itachi's, and saying they are equal solely because they can both use MS.

Come on man, you've really outdone youself and completely drowned yourself in databook to the extend that you are completely overlooking the manga.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 11, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> *And that is as far as it goes. But in this thread we are to assume Jiraiya is already in SM form. Which means there is no difference in combat.*
> 
> @ BKprince
> 
> Judging by Turrin's assessment of the new information from DB, its time to think other wise. Why would Jiraiya be the only sage unable to have sensing ? This new information has confirmed he does in fact have them. And being imperfect means nothing more than your looks are f'd up.



We don't  even have confirmation that the db4 translation is accurate.

The only time we take the databook word on something is when we don't have feats, we however have feats for sm jiraiya

I never stated he doesn't have it my arguement is he is likley not good at it judgeing from his performance.


Being imperfect means he struggles to enter sm.


As I've stated sensing is a type of skill and we have no reason to assume jiraiya is as good a sensor as sm naruto and sm kabuto when they have feats backing them up.


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## JuicyG (Nov 11, 2014)

Kishimoto used the fight with Jiraiya and Pain to show the legitimacy of its character. This fight also showcased Kishi's inconsistency in the series by not granting Jiraiya the same sensing feats of Naruto, but then has new DB information that shows Jiraiya "does" have these abilities. This was more of a circumstance issue with Jiraiya than it is a lack of Sage usage ability compared to the rest. 

*Even before these new findings, there have been long debates on Itachi vs SM Jiraiya. Regardless of what most might say, SM Jiraiya = + or - Living Itachi ; He is in the same tier and either directly ahead of him or slightly below. Its up to the persons preference of character imo.*


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 11, 2014)

When all else fails blame kishi ck


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 11, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Kishimoto used the fight with Jiraiya and Pain to show the legitimacy of its character. This fight also showcased Kishi's inconsistency in the series by not granting Jiraiya the same sensing feats of Naruto, but then has new DB information that shows Jiraiya "does" have these abilities. This was more of a circumstance issue with Jiraiya than it is a lack of Sage usage ability compared to the rest.
> 
> *Even before these new findings, there have been long debates on Itachi vs SM Jiraiya. Regardless of what most might say, SM Jiraiya = + or - Living Itachi ; He is in the same tier and either directly ahead of him or slightly below. Its up to the persons preference of character imo.*



Jiraiya vs Itachi debates existed only because some people don't like to admit they were wrong.
Majority conceded that Itachi was stronger than Jiraiya after Itachi fought Sasuke, showing his capacity. Him being sick, and wanting to lose was just icing on the cake.

The debate completely died after Edo Itachi's display.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 11, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Controlling Fukasaku and Shima is absolutely silly when both Fukasaku and Jiriaya can sense when Itachi's about to use Genjutsu and take premptive action to counter it. That's what it means to be a Kawazu Kumite user; the ability to sense the enemies attacks and counter attack/defend them.



Maybe so, but they, along with Jiraiya, certainly don't seem to use it all the time. Would you disagree with that sentiment? I don't think his feats put him anywhere near Kabuto's ability.

If it were simply a retcon, and Kishimoto decided, in hindsight, that he'd like Sage Jiraiya to be as evasive as Sage Kabuto, then I'd agree with you that Sage Jiraiya could defeat Itachi.

Still, I'd love a translation on Itachi's 5(?) pages in DB4 so I can ride that hype-train. Let me know when it's out.

​


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## FlamingRain (Nov 11, 2014)

I'm one of the ones that was already arguing Jiraiya should have had those abilities, so his standings don't really increase for me. Just posting to say to everybody "I told you so."

Flamey- 10.

Naysayers- 0.

And this:



Kai said:


> It does, as Jiraiya is at his most vulnerable when he prepares to enter Sage Mode whereas a perfect Sage doesn't have to worry about that liability.



Perfect Sages face _the_ _same_ _liabilities_ _actually_; that was the main reason Naruto came up with the _Kage Bunshin_ strategy.


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## JuicyG (Nov 11, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> When all else fails blame kishi ck



Kishi is in part is to blame. He is inconsistent....



Grimmjowsensei said:


> because some people don't like to admit they were wrong.



That goes both ways. Jiraiya has legitmate ways to beat Itachi in SM.


Grimmjowsensei said:


> Majority conceded that Itachi was stronger than Jiraiya after Itachi fought Sasuke



Only Itachi fans do, the rest feel that its a good match


Grimmjowsensei said:


> The debate completely died after Edo Itachi's display.



Just like debates died out about Itachi & Minato once Minato was edo


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 11, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> That goes both ways. Jiraiya has legitmate ways to beat Itachi in SM.


Not unless the conditions are really stacked in his favor. 




> Only Itachi fans do, the rest feel that its a good match


Not really, Itachi always led the polls 60-70% to 30%, and only a few well known Jiriaya fans claimed that Jiraiya had a legit shot @ defeating Itachi.



> Just like debates died out about Itachi & Minato once Minato was edo



Pretty much.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Nov 11, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Why not exactly. Sennin Modo Sensing allows Jiriaya to sense when Itachi is going to use Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, and he can simply block eye contact or attack him disrupting the technique. It's essentially the exact same power Kabuto was using to counter Itachi's Genjutsu and Amaterasu w/o issue. It also allows him to dodge around high speed attacks, like Susnao'o, again Kabuto was using the same power to dodge around Susano'o in his fight with Sasuke and Itachi. In-fact he's better than Kabuto because Fukasaku can also use it so that's two people sensing out Itachi's attacks at any given time, so if one is distracted the other can pick up the slach. Additionally he can further slow down or disrupt Itachi's attacks with Fusaku and Shima's Senpou Frog Call, which moves a tremendous speed and can paralyze the victim according to the DB. And he only needs to survive long enough to get off Frog-Song because given how Itachi needed help to escape the Senpou version of Tayuya's Genjutsu, he's done for if he is hit by Frog-Song.
> 
> To me it has become more like the reverse, I don't really see how Itachi would win against SM-Jiriaya.



So would you say that Jiraiya can dodge Amatarasu? If so can you please help me argue that in the Itachi vs sanin thread lol


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## JuicyG (Nov 11, 2014)

SM Jiraiya doesnt have to dodge the Amaterasu to avoid it. That huge Odama Rasengan is a perfect shield to block Itachi's LOS and effectively, block the ama or genjutsu while potentially busting Susano.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 11, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> SM Jiraiya doesnt have to dodge the Amaterasu to avoid it. That huge Odama Rasengan is a perfect shield to block Itachi's LOS and effectively, block the ama or genjutsu while potentially busting Susano.



Using a big ball of wind isn't the ideal choice to block Amaterasu.


And Amaterasu is faster anyway.


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## JuicyG (Nov 11, 2014)

@ That is assuming they are activating those jutsu's at the same time. Jiraiya formed the Odama Rasengan in a split second versus Pain. The Amaterasu would just make the rasengan stronger in theory since thats what happened with Naruto and Sasuke


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 11, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> @ That is assuming they are activating those jutsu's at the same time. Jiraiya formed the Odama Rasengan in a split second versus Pain. The Amaterasu would just make the rasengan stronger in theory since thats what happened with Naruto and Sasuke



Fire beats wind 

Sasuke was cooperating with naruto 


Jiraiya makes a big ball of wind only to amplify Amaterasu .


He would easily lose a arm or more using this old method


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## Trojan (Nov 11, 2014)

SM Jiraiya is stronger than the likes of

itachi, Tobirama, edo kages..etc

The strongest he could beat is probably Pain depends on the conditions as Pain himself stated.


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## JuicyG (Nov 11, 2014)

@ BK

By the time Amaterasu would hit the Odama Rasengan, it would already be planted in Itachi's Susano, making it Jiraiya's jutsu.



Also I'm not saying SM Jiraiya beats Itachi if we include edo version and feats that followed. My argument is living Itachi and his feats alone ;

Itachi cannot stay in Susano'o for long though. If he's forced to use Susano'o to defend and attacks with MS jutsu that fail, he's going to be exhausted really quickly. 

With full knowledge, Jiraiya can deal with all of Itachi's techniques. 

Genjutsu - countered by 2 sages on his shoulders

Amaterasu - Kage bunshin, blocking LoS with a giant Rasengan, Ma/Pa creating a dust cloud, summons

Tsukuyomi - won't make eye contact (Taking in account the DB4 statements on sensing)

Totsuka - with knowledge, Jiraiya won't get near Susano'o; and with his boosted speed he won't get hit. Especially since Yomi Numa can bog Susano'o down.

Itachi gets tired out and Jiraiya finishes him off.


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## Trojan (Nov 11, 2014)

Regular Rassengan > Amterasu


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 11, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> @ BK
> 
> By the time Amaterasu would hit the Odama Rasengan, it would already be planted in Itachi's Susano, making it Jiraiya's jutsu.
> 
> ...




Itachi can cast amatatasu faster then jiraiaya can form a rasengon and leap toward him.


Literally the worst thing jiraiya can do is run up to v4 susano wielding yata mirror/totsuka and use rasengon.

The ball gets negated by yata and jiraiaya likley gets tagged in mid air by totsuka.

The two sages on his neck isn't saving him from tsukiyomi and they can be targeted by genjutsu themselves.

Jiraiya has poor sensing feats and sensing can be overloaded.

Yata can likley cancel out yomi and itachi has the speed to avoid it.


The thing is itachi's entire ms arsenal has the potential to kill jiraiaya so there won't  be any wasted effort on itachi's part.


Jiraiaya has poor sensing feats, doesn't  have the speed to avoid amatarasu, and doesn't have the firepower to bust a v4 using yata mirror.


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## Kyu (Nov 11, 2014)

SM J-man has a slight edge on his fellow Sannin and Hiruzen.

SM Naruto, Tobirama, Minato, & Itachi defeat him more often than not.

Nothing has changed.


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## Trojan (Nov 11, 2014)

Kyu said:


> SM J-man has a slight edge on his fellow Sannin and Hiruzen.
> 
> *SM Naruto, Tobirama, Minato, & Itachi defeat him more often than not.
> *
> Nothing has changed.



Even though those 4 people are not on the same level, but either way. How is Tobirama going to defeat him? 

(I am sick of debating about itachi and people will deny that he's inferior to base Jiraiya as stated in the manga, so there is no point of going there. ) 

So, let's go with Tobirama, now. 
how is he superior to Jiraiya exactly?


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## JuicyG (Nov 11, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Itachi can cast amatatasu faster then jiraiaya can form a rasengon and leap toward him.
> 
> 
> Literally the worst thing jiraiya can do is run up to v4 susano wielding yata mirror/totsuka and use rasengon.
> ...



Your speaking as if Itachi can do all those things at once. Itachi while will gas out after using one amaterasu+susano 

If Itachi uses Susano --- Jiraiya (SM enhanced) will sink it without question
Again with full knowledge, Jiariya + Ma/Pa can avoid genjutsu
Jiraiya has plenty of ways to block LOS, and if you dont trust in Jiraiya's sensing, then trust in the elder toads, someone will sense the MS building up ( Leaning on Pain's feat vs Jiraiya is dumb because it was a plot thing for Kishi, not to mention Itachi couldnt beat pain either)


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## Kyu (Nov 11, 2014)

@Hussain:

A weakened Tobirama reacted to SM Madara.

Nidaime was the fastest of his era & this includes Madara who nearly blitzed Sage Naruto who is > SM Jiraiya.


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## Trojan (Nov 11, 2014)

Kyu said:


> @Hussain:
> 
> A weakened Tobirama reacted to SM Madara.
> 
> Nidaime was the fastest of his era & this includes Madara who nearly blitzed Sage Naruto who is > SM Jiraiya.



- And he got fodderstomped, so madara did not only dodged his first sneak attack, but even the second one. 
dodging one attack is not enough in tobirama's case if he can't do the same after that.  

Naruto was not moving or fighting. Just like how Madara wasn't when Lee fodderstomped him. 

SM Naruto is better than Jiraiya in SM, and that's about it. Jiraiya's base abilities are better than Narudo's...


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 11, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Your speaking as if Itachi can do all those things at once. Itachi while will gas out after using one amaterasu+susano
> 
> If Itachi uses Susano --- Jiraiya (SM enhanced) will sink it without question
> Again with full knowledge, Jiariya + Ma/Pa can avoid genjutsu
> Jiraiya has plenty of ways to block LOS, and if you dont trust in Jiraiya's sensing, then trust in the elder toads, someone will sense the MS building up ( Leaning on Pain's feat vs Jiraiya is dumb because it was a plot thing for Kishi, not to mention Itachi couldnt beat pain either)



yeah it's not like sick itachi used bushins, regular genjutsu, tsukiyomi, double amatarasu, and multiple forms of susano against sasuke ck






they have no good feats of fighting just off sensing alone, out of the toads, jiraiya, and minato, Naruto has displayed the best sensing feats to date.

the toads was there when he got blindsided so i wouldn't be so quick to claim they can fight just off using sensing alone.



itachi will likely use susano in response to jiraiya trying to blitz or when jiraiya gets in striking range, he won't just erect susano for fun if jiraiaya isn't remotely close to him, its like everyone of your scenario's involve itachi standing doing nothing, fighting stupidly and jiraiya just magically having the counter for said situation sorry it doesn't work like that.

yata would likely nullify the swamp anyway.





its silly to blame jiraiyas sm performance on plot, the most bias argument i ever heard.
every time a feat makes sm jiraiya looks good it's kool and every time a feat makes him look bad, it's plot 




sasuke made a full circle of amatarasu around itachi before kabuto even realized it and he had to stop himself from running.

actually






this leads me to believe  jiraiya with inferior sensing feats would still get tagged by amatarasu more times then not.


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## Turrin (Nov 11, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because you are assuming they have the exact same body speed and agility .


I literally said that could be a difference, I just don't see any reason why Kabuto would be better in that regard than Jiriaya. He had a 3.5 as of DBIII, while Jiriaya had a 4.5. At best I could see an argument for a 4.5 due to Orochimaru integration, but even that argument is not super strong, since Kabuto had already integrated Orochimaru as of DBIII.



> and Jiraiya's sensory abilities are on par with Kabuto's, which certainly aren't, considering he had to be warned by Pa when human realm tried to blindside him


He did not have to be warned. Shima (not Pa) saying watch out doesn't mean Jiriaya or Fukasaku couldn't sense the enemy. Telling someone to watch out happens all the time, even when the other person knows the enemy is coming. Naruto tells Kakashi and Gai to watch out for the Gobi, despite the them being able to blatantly see the Gobi coming for them [1]. Gai tells Naruto that three Jin are coming towards him, despite Naruto blatantly being able to see them doing so and being a sensor, and Naruto tells B that they are coming even though B can blatantly see them[1]. Hachibi tells Naruto that the Bijuu are about to blast TBB at Kakashi and Gai, despite Naruto blatantly being able to see and sense it [1]. Kakashi tells Gai that the Bijuu are charging despite Gai being able to blatantly see it [1]. 

That's literally one battle I just randomly decided to use as an example, so as you can see, Shima say the enemy isn't any more meaningful to Jiriaya and Fuksaku's ability to sense the enemy than any of this other stuff.



> nd he couldn't even sense Asura coming behind him.


Naruto was blind sided when fatty was resurrected [1], is Naruto not a sensor now? 



> . In otherwords, either Kishimoto didn't think about sensory abilities @ that point, or Jiraiya's sensory abilities are non existant due to his imperfect sage mode.


Or Jiriaya always had sensor abilities and that explains why he was able to target Human-Realm perfectly in a smoke-screen [1]. And later summon distraction toad in-front of Animal Realm and perfectly appear behind animal realm despite his vision being cut off by the smokescreen [1]. In-fact Jiriaya's smokescreen tactic is literally the exact same tactic that Naruto utilized against Pain, which he was capable of because you guessed it, he had SM-Sensing. These are things that people have been arguing for years implied Jiriaya had SM-Sensing, so him now being confirmed to have it makes perfect sense.



> The Manga didn't explicitly say that an Imperfect Sage has inferior sensing feats to a perfect sage. It didn't have to, because it is common sense.
> Thats like asking whether 2 tomoe sharingan is superior to a single tomoe sharingan or not.


Here's the problem, Jiraiya is a Kawazu Kumite users. As per the mechanics of Kawazu Kumite, Jiraiya has to be able to sense the opponents attack coming to the point where he can perfectly match their rhythm and counter attack. So if Jiraiya can already use SM sensing to the point where he can predict attacks, what exactly makes Naruto's Sage Senses better?

And no I don't consider it common sense that Naruto would have better sensing. What aspect of balancing the three energies better has to do with sensing? Heck there really isn't even a distinction made in the manga between perfect Sennin modo and imperfect Sennin Modo, that's completely made up by fans. What's stated in the manga is that Jiriaya is not as good at balancing the three energies as Naruto, which is illustrated by having more toad features. Kabuto has more snakes features than Naruto had Toad features himself, does that mean he's an inferior sensor to Naruto? 



> _Sage mode's power comes from balancing Nature energy_. Naruto does it better, thus his sage mode is stronger.


Where is this ever stated.



> Are you implying that there is absolutely no difference between someone who has perfect mastery of SM and someone who doesn't ? It makes no sense.


No i'm stating that the only difference, is the only one the manga has highlighted, that Naruto can balance the three energies better. Being able to balance the three energies more efficiently means Naruto can enter Sennin Modo more quickly; and it's also probably why he can manage to balance the godly amounts of Natural energy he gets from Hagoromo and later Kurama in the final battles.



> His vision wasn't perfectly blocked, because if it was, then the other Pain outside the smoke screen wouldn't be able to see him, which he did, that means Jiraiya could see as well.


Pain has a Dojutsu, Sensory abilities, and multiple superior vantage points. That is why he was able to react. Jiriaya being able to perfectly target Human Realm from his vantage point and later Animal Realm, never was explained well, now we get DBIV saying he has SM sensing and it makes perfect sense.



> No.
> 
> Nature energy doesn't work like a bijuu shroud.


Acorrding to Kawazu Kumite's entry natural energy can be released from the body, and when Naruto released it against Fatty it had enough force to physical blow his body away and break his neck. So why then would it not be able to push Amaterasu flames away, which have been consistently trolled to high heaven in this manga and have absolutely no resistance to being pushed away whatsoever?



> No, re-read the manga.
> Itachi alone distracts Kabuto with 4 magatama and Sasuke follows up with the arrow which Kabuto can't dodge. That means the magatama, aka Itachi, did the distracting.


Itachi distracted Kabuto, but he did not land the hit, Sasuke did. So yeah i'm sure Itachi could distract Jiriaya sufficiently enough for another Susano'o user to hit him. But alone Itachi will have extreme difficulty landing a blow on him.



> I gave it as an example to show that Itachi was capable of perfectly bypassing both Rinnegan's field of vision and Sage sensing. So with that in mind, assuming that Jiraiya counters everything Itachi throws @ him perfectly is a bit of a stretch, but Itachi actually getting past sage sensing isn't.


It's a huge stretch that Itachi would get past Sage Sensing, as easily as your making it out to be, because he needed the help of an EMS user to do so in the manga cannon. Jiriaya being able to react and defend against Itachi's techniques is hardly a stretch at all since he literally has the exact same Sennin Modo sensing that allowed someone else to do so.



> Only that Jiraya's sensory abilities were never mentioned or shown, and Kabuto's were hyped to another level.


When were Kabuto's SM abilities hyped to another level beyond normal SM sensing. Literally all Kabuto cites for his sensing powers was that they are indeed Sennin Modo sensing powers, that's it.



> hats like comparing Sasuke's early summit arc MS display to Itachi's, and saying they are equal solely because they can both use MS.


No it's more like comparing Sasuke's ability to use Amaterasu to Itachi's ability to use Amaterasu; it's the exact same ability to generate the black flames. Sasuke might be able to use it more frequently because he has more chakra, and Itachi might be able to use it more cunningly because he's smarter, but both can do it. What your arguing amounts to both have Amaterasu, but Itachi can't summon black flames, which doesn't make sense.



Strategoob said:


> Maybe so, but they, along with Jiraiya, certainly don't seem to use it all the time. Would you disagree with that sentiment?t​


Jiraiya doesn't use it literally all the time. Like when he thought the pains were dead he wasn't searching for their chakra still and so he got blindsided. But that applies to every Sennin Modo user in the manga. Naruto was blindsided when Fatty was brought back. Fukasaku and Shima were blindsided by both Asura and Fatty's resurrection. Kabuto was blindsided when he thought he got the real Itachi with his sword, and only hit a clone. But most of the time the Sennin Modo users will be sensing unless significantly tricked by their enemy.

-----
And look I don't think Jiriaya is stronger than Itachi, I think they are roughly equal as I always have. Itachi is in trouble if Jiriaya reaches Sennin Modo, but Jiriaya is in trouble at the start of the match. It evens out to me, just as Naruto and Sasuke evened out with their MS and SM powers respectively.



> Still, I'd love a translation on Itachi's 5(?) pages in DB4 so I can ride that hype-train. Let me know when it's out.


I already looked over Itachi's proflle and it just repeats stuff we already know, with no hype, it was really disappointing. I'll get to Izanami eventually i'm sure, and the Katon Shuriken Jutsu (though how much hype can be in the latter I don't know).


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## Kyu (Nov 12, 2014)

> - And he got fodderstomped,so madara did not only dodged his first sneak attack, but even the second one.
> dodging one attack is not enough in tobirama's case if he can't do the same after that.



Point is he can react to characters who's physical capabilities eclipse his own - in a weakened state no less.

The end result of that fight is irrelevant.




> Naruto was not moving or fighting.



Ok? He was standing in front of blind Madara & barely had time to block his attack.




> Just like how Madara wasn't when Lee fodderstomped him.



Madara had limited mobility due to his connection to the Juubi.

That was the whole point of Naruto & Lee severing the tubes attached to Obito and Madara.



> SM Naruto is better than Jiraiya in SM, and that's about it. Jiraiya's base abilities are better than Narudo's...



Pre-War Arc? Sure.

War Arc? They're around the same level.

Post-War Arc? Nope.


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## Rocky (Nov 12, 2014)

Sage Jiraiya's attacking abilities are not better than any version of Sage Naruto's. Fūton: Rasenshuriken is a thing. I don't think Jiraiya has anything that really measures up to that technique in total offensive might, and the old toads were shocked that something like it could even be used. 

Though defensively, Jiraiya is likely superior to Pain Arc Naruto, because his hair guard is probably pretty insane in Sage Mode. That of course changes in later arcs when Multi-Clone Rasengan walls become a thing.


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## ARGUS (Nov 12, 2014)

the stroongest SM Jiraiya can beat is MS sasuke,


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## Zynn (Nov 12, 2014)

Hmm, based on the list, with full knowledge, Jiraiya presumably could kill all of them in a one-on-one, with Itachi being the hardest fight. How to counter Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu is already stated before, and if Itachi uses Susanoo? Just go far, far away from the guy until he's out of energy. It's a valid tactic.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 12, 2014)

> No it's more like comparing Sasuke's ability to use Amaterasu to Itachi's ability to use Amaterasu; it's the exact same ability to generate the black flames. Sasuke might be able to use it more frequently because he has more chakra, and Itachi might be able to use it more cunningly because he's smarter, but both can do it. What your arguing amounts to both have Amaterasu, but Itachi can't summon black flames, which doesn't make sense.


From that perspective, Sasuke's feats don't transfer to Itachi because he was stated to be more skilled with Amaterasu and he has an ability that allows to shape manipulate black flames. 

But a better example is still Susano'O, as it is easier to observe progression with it.

So your claim here is that, Raikage fight Sasuke is as proficient as Itachi in terms of Susano'O usage, because they both have MS and they both have Susano'O.




> Jiraiya doesn't use it literally all the time. Like when he thought the pains were dead he wasn't searching for their chakra still and so he got blindsided.


I think you'r mistaking Kawazu Kumite with regular sensing. Kawazu Kumite is like sharingan precog, it is active as long as SM is active.

Long distance sensing is a conscious effort. Unless of course you believe Naruto released nature energy from his body enveloping hundreds of miles here : [1]
^ That cetainly isn't Kawazu Kumite.



> But that applies to every Sennin Modo user in the manga. Naruto was blindsided when Fatty was brought back. Fukasaku and Shima were blindsided by both Asura and Fatty's resurrection.


Thats not being blindsided. There was no threat to themselves.
Being aware of someones presence in the vicinity isn't the same as dodging or blocking a hit in an attempt to save your life. 



> Kabuto was blindsided when he thought he got the real Itachi with his sword, and only hit a clone. But most of the time the Sennin Modo users will be sensing unless significantly tricked by their enemy.


Because Itachi can pull bunshin feints faster than sharingan and a perfect sage can track. Thats a plus for Itachi, not a minus for Kabuto.


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## Trojan (Nov 12, 2014)

> =Kyu;52222041]Point is he can react to characters who's physical capabilities eclipse his own - in a weakened state no less.
> 
> The end result of that fight is irrelevant.



You're focusing way too much in this "weakened state". He's almost at full power, and I really doubt that his speed was effected. Not to mention we already know that Tobirama was faster than madara.



> Ok? He was standing in front of blind Madara & barely had time to block his attack.
> 
> 
> Madara had limited mobility due to his connection to the Juubi.
> ...



Madara could have used his Susanoo, yet he did not have the time to do anything and got fodderized.



> Pre-War Arc? Sure.
> War Arc? They're around the same level.
> Post-War Arc? Nope.



O,K, I am not going in details here since it would probably make us enter another big debate. Not to mention SM Naruto is stronger than Tobirama either way as well. U_U


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## Kazekage94 (Nov 12, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> I didnt list a single shinobi that _would or could_ stomp Sm Jiraiya. You understimate him, he died fighting with _no knowledge_ against Pain, and people like you dog him for that. None of those listed would beat Pain without knowledge



Don't powerscale

Yes you did. Can you explain how he wins


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## Hachibi (Nov 12, 2014)

So this thread was a SM Jiraiya vs Itachi in disguise.

Meh, we already know that Itachi is superior to him via feat, and the DB isn't 100% reliable (ie Kiri kidnapping Kushina instead of Kumo).


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## Trojan (Nov 12, 2014)

It does not even say Kushina, you made that up. 

Jiraiya by feats and hype > itachi. It's sad that the manga ended and some of his fans still did not
get over it. @>@


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## Turrin (Nov 12, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kabuto was *trying* control Orochimaru's powers in DB3.
> Naruto also has lower base speed and strength than Jiriaya but has better speed and strength feats in SM.
> Probably because his SM mastery is better ? I'd assume the same for Kabuto, for obvious reasons..
> .


Naruto and Kabuto have better feats, because they had more oppertunity to do so. There sole battle was against a Pain Rikudo, who shuts down superior speed. Just because Naruto and Kabuto were able to go against characters where they were able to have more showy displays doesn't mean we should disregard that Jiriaya is stated to be faster in the DB. It's not like Naruto or Kabuto literally did things that Jiriaya was shown incapable of. Unless your argument literally is, any other data, besides shown feats doesn't count, which I know that can't be the case since I see you arguing things based on other data besides shown feats all the time; like the durability of Yata Mirror for instance.



> That hugeass exclamation mark on his head says otherwise and Pa's follow up with a smoke grenade.


Jiriaya and Fukasaku did do something about it, Shima, just shouted, first, which again happens all the time in the manga. The exclamation point could easily be Jiriaya sensing the attack at the same time. Simply put there are explanation for that panel that still allow Jiraiya to be a sensor. Before it was stated that he was a sensor, I would be more willing to give credence to other interpretations, but now that he has been stated to be one there's little reason to adopt an interpretation that goes against what's stated, when there are ones that coincide with what's stated. 



> How was he blindsided ? If Naruto was attacked from the sides or behind and wasn't able to dodge, you'd have an argument. There was no threat to his self coming from Fatty, Naruto doesn't have long distance sensing active all the time.


Because he had no clue that Fatty was alive and was surprised when he visually saw him. Fatty was more than close enough where it should necessitate long distance sensing to sense him. 



> They were literally in point blank proximity, smoke screen doesn't make you completely blind, you should be able to see things that are close to you. It is actually harder for those outside the smoke to see the inside from afar. Thats what Pa was trying to do, to prevent other attacks coming from their blindsides.


Pa was trying to blind Human realm so Jiraiya could flank him. Seeing general shapes and being able to launch an attack perfectly are two different things; and we don't even have an indication that Jiriaya could see general shapes, he doesn't have a Dojutsu like Pain. But ether way that doesn't even begin to explain what he did against Animal Realm.



> Because Naruto is a better sage mode user, thus he can do everything better than Jiraiya does.
> I am really confused what you'r having trouble understanding here. This is pretty simple stuff.


But that is fanfic, considering it was never once stated to be so. Again if you provide a panel where this is even remotely stated I will concede, but it's simply an explanation that Naruto-fan came up for, for why Naruto could use Ghost Punches and Sensing, but they thought Jiriaya could not. It turns out that is wrong however and Jiriaya can do both because he is a Kawazu Kumite user, so why would we still use this logic, it doesn't make sense.



> What ? No. Being able to use it faster is just an added perk. The main indication was the less froglike transformation Naruto went through. Fukasaku thought Naruto'd eclipse Jiraiya based on that fact alone.
> 
> When was it ever said that the only difference between a perfect sage and an imperfect one is the duration that it takes them to enter sm ?


 If you can balance the energies better you can complete the process faster, and that's exactly what we've seen from Minato and Naruto.



> So you'r saying that smoke screen doesn't have any effect on dojutsu. Then why was he surprised that Pain was able to block him ?


No i'm saying it has less of an effect on Dojutsu.



> This is a bold claim, which certainly needs proof. And a vague and short databook translation isn't going to provide it, I can assure you that.


Proof of what. Amaterasu has no resistance to being pushed. Jiriaya can exude a pushing force. The answer is straight forward.



> So ok, Itachi is capable of overloading sagesensing to the extend that it can't percieve a fast follow up attack. Good thing we've established that.
> Itachi could have followed up with Amaterasu or Totsuka, but they chose to go with Sasuke's arrow just so they could pin him down, not hurt him and because of all the team work stuff to prove Kabuto wrong that they couldn't work together.


No Itachi is capable of distracting a Sage enough where they can't than react to another Susano'o's attacks. Unless Itachi can pull 2 Susano'o out his ass, that's not helping him here.



> Its not a stretch, because it already happened. And 4 magatama is all it took to distract a perfect sage and leave him open for a follow up attack, and Itachi has the capability of adding in more attacks on top of his Magatama. Totsuka and Amaterasu, techniques that both OHKO Jiraiya.


Totsuka wouldn't have reached Kabuto, and Amaterasu is inferior to a follow up Susano'o attack. 



> It is certainly a stretch, because Kabuto is a completely different character, he is better equipped to fight dojutsu, and on top of that, he is fuckloads stronger and has the perfect sage mode.


Kabuto has better techniques, but he was fighting Sasuke and Itachi effectively. Jiriaya only needs to fight Itachi here. What does carry over is what SM sensing makes possible.



> Feat transfer works only if the said character is either stronger or at least equal to the one performing the feats.
> Jiraiya is neither.


He is equal in the feats i'm citing which depend on SM sensing, which he has, and Speed/Reactions which he is >= to Kabuto.



> Kabuto already has enhanced sensing abilities, by the virtue of having snake-like anatomy.
> SM obviously enhanced everything. Couple it with the default sage sensing, and yes, his sensory abilities are way beyond Naruto's and Jiraiya's.
> And Kabuto's evasiveness was hyped and touched upon many times even after Naruto's display, which leads me to believe that the author was trying to cement that he was on a different level than Naruto who is on a different level than Jiraiya.


And Jiriaya has SM sensing himself + Fukaksaku's SM sensing + Detection Barrier (enhanced by Senjutsu) + Shima's Biological Detection also enhanced by Senjutsu.



> From that perspective, Sasuke's feats don't transfer to Itachi because he was stated to be more skilled with Amaterasu and he has an ability that allows to shape manipulate black flames.


That was a totally different ability.

[


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## Hachibi (Nov 12, 2014)

Hussain said:


> It does not even say Kushina, you made that up.
> 
> Jiraiya by feats and hype > itachi. It's sad that the manga ended and some of his fans still did not
> get over it. @>@



It said Jin, yet which Jin is the most important to Minato? 

Also, Black Zetsu called Itachi invincible, Sasuke called him perfect and Hashirama said he is better than him.

Not to mention Edo Itachi's performance in the war were superior to Jiraiya's in his whole life. Tho there was massive power creep.


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## Hachibi (Nov 12, 2014)

Also Jiraiya isn't in anyways superior to SM Kabuto, let alone in speed.


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## Trojan (Nov 12, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> It said Jin, yet which Jin is the most important to Minato?
> 
> Also, Black Zetsu called Itachi invincible, Sasuke called him perfect and Hashirama said he is better than him.
> 
> Not to mention Edo Itachi's performance in the war were superior to Jiraiya's in his whole life. Tho there was massive power creep.



- his kid. 
and there is Rin as well. 
it does not have to be "the most important" it's about who is in terrible. 

- and Obito said Jiraiya defeated him. 

- When itachi can defeat JJ obito, we can talk. ck


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 12, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - his kid.
> and there is Rin as well.
> it does not have to be "the most important" it's about who is in terrible.
> 
> ...



-Both didn't exist when Minato was a kid tho 

-Still doesn't compare to the wankfest Itachi get in Naruto/Sasuke.

-Dude,dude, dude...
How it feel to get trolled by the DB? ck
Because the unknown technique was just in the end "MOAR HIRAISHIN!"


----------



## Trojan (Nov 12, 2014)

The trolling is not about the "moar FTG" but rather because we did not see it. 
I wouldn't call Naruto getting more "Rassengans" as trolling. 

and I don't feel like getting trolled after that brief translations. Everyone (almost) was wanking Tobirama
and thinking his FTG = Minato's, and the Databook put him TWO levels below, and stated directly that Minato's
FTG is superior to him as well. 

of course, people will still rid him, and think he's equal to Minato by giving him Minato's feats, but oh well, at least it feels good when you see
that salty tears. 



> -Still doesn't compare to the wankfest Itachi get in Naruto/Sasuke.



That does not compare to itachi admitted that he's inferior to the great sage though. 
this itachi who's better than Hashirama, and whom Sasuke believe that he's perfect, and all that crap
admitted that Jiraiya is even greater than him. 

anyway, stay salty, no one cares about salty fanboys, and I don't want to go in this debate again.
Jiraiya > itachi. CANON. It does not matter how salty and butthurt some people are over this, it's there FOREVER.


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 12, 2014)

Hussain said:


> The trolling is not about the "moar FTG" but rather because we did not see it.
> I wouldn't call Naruto getting more "Rassengans" as trolling.
> 
> and I don't feel like getting trolled after that brief translations. Everyone (almost) was wanking Tobirama
> ...



Hiraishin is S-Rank for both, Hiraishingiri IS the B-Rank jutsu.
Also, remember who lost both of his arm and who was more useful than him in the Juubito




> That does not compare to itachi admitted that he's inferior to the great sage though.
> this itachi who's better than Hashirama, and whom Sasuke believe that he's perfect, and all that crap
> admitted that Jiraiya is even greater than him.
> 
> ...



By ignoring Itachi's character and motive, thus the context, sure.
Horewer, by accepting them, it is likely that Itachi lied.

Simple .


----------



## Trojan (Nov 12, 2014)

> [=Hachibi;52223327]Hiraishin is S-Rank for both, Hiraishingiri IS the B-Rank jutsu.
> Also, remember who lost both of his arm and who was more useful than him in the Juubito


No once cares about what you think sadly. Canon > you. 
yeah, I remember who saved the world and who did nothing. And I do remember who was pinned down in the ground as well, and who lost half of his body. 


> By ignoring Itachi's character and motive, thus the context, sure.
> Horewer, by accepting them, it is likely that Itachi lied.
> 
> Simple .



yeah sure, ignoring that itachi the arrogant guy who thought he can accomplish everything himself admitted his inferiority. 

You, keep your fanon to yourself my dear NOT a single time was it EVER mentioned that he lied in that matter. It's rather "less than smart" to think he did not want to do a thing just for his action after that to try to get Naruto without interfering.


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 12, 2014)

Hussain said:


> No once cares about what you think sadly. Canon > you.
> yeah, I remember who saved the world and who did nothing. And I do remember who was pinned down in the ground as well, and who lost half of his body.



Hussain pls. We both know thar's true.
And I remember who failed to save his kid and have Black Balls attacking him 



> yeah sure, ignoring that itachi the arrogant guy who thought he can accomplish everything himself admitted his inferiority.
> 
> You, keep your fanon to yourself my dear NOT a single time was it EVER mentioned that he lied in that matter. It's rather "less than smart" to think he did not want to do a thing just for his action after that to try to get Naruto without interfering.



Itachi isn't arrogant in the purest se,se of the word 

Also, lying would be beneficial as well. He would both follow his mission(protect Konoha) and keep a eye on Akatsuki.

Kishi's opinion >>> your opinion.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Nov 12, 2014)

Itachi could of easily lit base jiraiya on fire with amatarasu and that would of dispelled the summon all together.


Itachi obviously didn't want to kill jiraiya as akatsuki would  have had the nine tails in there hands at that point.




i also find it funny as shyt that all jiraiya fans are blaming his short comings on plot, but will not address the scenario i provided with the same outlook.



can anybody answer what jiraiaya could of done if itachi decided to light him on fire instead?


----------



## Trojan (Nov 12, 2014)

> =Hachibi;52223444]Hussain pls. We both know thar's true.
> And I remember who failed to save his kid and have Black Balls attacking him






> Itachi isn't arrogant in the purest se,se of the word
> 
> Also, lying would be beneficial as well. He would both follow his mission(protect Konoha) and keep a eye on Akatsuki.
> 
> Kishi's opinion >>> your opinion.



- no one cares, his statement was in the past. 
- No, he was going to take Naruto, lacking reading comprehension so much, eh Hachibi? 
- Yes, and Kishi's words Jiraya > itachi. End of the debate. 



Bkprince33 said:


> Itachi could of easily lit base jiraiya on fire with amatarasu and that would of dispelled the summon all together.
> 
> 
> Itachi obviously didn't want to kill jiraiya as akatsuki would  have had the nine tails in there hands at that point.
> ...



- Jiraiya would use Kwarimi if he needs to. 
+
you're wrong because itachi says you're wrong. 


Get over it itachi's fans, that's really sad.


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 12, 2014)

> - no one cares, his statement was in the past.
> - No, he was going to take Naruto, lacking reading comprehension so much, eh Hachibi?
> - Yes, and Kishi's words Jiraya > itachi. End of the debate.



-And?
-...
Selective Reading at it's finest.
-By Kishi's words Itachi is invincible. End of debate.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 12, 2014)

invincible except for the sound and underground attacks, both of which Jiraiya has. 



> -And?



and keep your fanon away, and actually use the manga. 
in which case itachi admitted that he is not winning against Jiraya. Stop being salty, that's the "and". 

I know it's hard for you, but it's the end of the manga, and you have to endure the pain, you're a bijuu (Ninja), right? 

or you could always use the link.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Nov 12, 2014)

^ So you honestly think Jiraiya can take both Itachi and Kisame still?


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 12, 2014)

Hussain said:


> invincible except for the sound and underground attacks, both of which Jiraiya has.



Underground attack would be dodged and Frog Song is like unmastered (perfect) Sage Mode: It isn't pratical in battle unless you're in a team or can use clone/has thing to hide/distract the opponent.



> and keep your fanon away, and actually use the manga.
> in which case itachi admitted that he is not winning against Jiraya. Stop being salty, that's the "and".
> 
> I know it's hard for you, but it's the end of the manga, and you have to endure the pain, you're a bijuu (Ninja), right?
> ...



And in the manga he was keeping up with SM Kabuto.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 12, 2014)

I don't think much changes because I think you're misinterpreting the entry: Jiraiya could never use SM abilities (Frog Fu and sensing) to the level Naruto could. If he could, he would have stomped Pain in the situation he was in.

I say stomped because Naruto was in that same situation and used the abilities you claim Jiraiya had to stomp Pain.


----------



## Arles Celes (Nov 12, 2014)

A kage level ninja like Oonoki.

Someone like Nagato is too much and stronger guys like Madara or Hashi make it a lolstomp.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 12, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> I still don't see why people deny that Itachi can control Fukasaku or Shima to kill Jiraiya. The Sharingan's been shown to control animals or even tailed beasts, and Itachi's forte is genjutsu control.​



You're confusing Kotoamatsukami with Genjutsu on the very weak willed. 
That's why people _still_ don't see it the way you do: you've got the wrong concept with how Genjutsu works.



> And Turrin, we've seen Jiraiya's lack of ability relative to Naruto's against Pain already. Assuming they're equally evasive because they're both listed as technique users is incorrect.​



I'm assuming Jiraiya had the lowest level relative to Naruto. Naruto could sense in SM perfectly, reacting to someone as fast as V1 A in the last moment (Minato used Hiraishin* to do that)... Jiraiya didn't even know Ningendou was behind him till Fukasaku pointed it out. Yet the opposition is arguing the databook disproves the manga here.

*He was approaching Minato from behind.

Jiraiya used roundabout tactics just to get by shared vision and the Preta Path's ability to get a meaningful hit on Pain. Naruto did it with Frog Fu with considerably less effort than Jiraiya did.
Yet the opposition argues the manga is wrong here.

From a story standout it is stupid too since it negates the purpose of Jiraiya being surpassed.

That's just my input on why I find the Jiraiya revival threads to be ludicrous.


----------



## TheGreen1 (Nov 12, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think ghost hits don't work when you block a hit, because they are like the extension of your limb. Deva was able to block Naruto's kick as well.



He still was sent flying. That should have shattered his arm, just saying.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 12, 2014)

TheGreen1 said:


> He still was sent flying. That should have shattered his arm, just saying.



He was sent flying because Naruto is fuckloads stronger than him. 
Kurenai blocked Itachi's kick with 2 arms and was also sent flying.

Its not like ghost hits get past your guard and break your neck.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Nov 12, 2014)

Perfecting Sage Mode isn't about the techniques , Perfecting Sage Mode meant that Naruto could balance the energy better , he didn't need to merge with Ma or Pa frog in order to utilize it . asking why Jiraiya didn't use Frog Kumite against Pain , is asking why didn't Naruto use Summoning against Sasuke at VOTE, its PIS as kishi wanted to save if for Naruto to use .


Jiraiya could use the techniques but couldn't balance the natural energy

Minato could balance the natural energy but couldn't use the techniques 

Naruto could do both


----------



## GKY (Nov 12, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> I think as of now its;
> 
> *Edo Itachi > SM Jiraiya >= Healthy Itachi > Sick Itachi > Base Jiraiya*



I would probably change that slightly and say SM Jiraiya = Healthy Itachi. Aside from that, I think this is the most sensible thing I've seen a Jiraiya supporter post.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 12, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> ^ So you honestly think Jiraiya can take both Itachi and Kisame still?



he might need SM for that.


----------



## Alex Payne (Nov 12, 2014)

I reread Jiraiya vs Pain and... 

Well.



That's some mighty sensing. You don't even need people watching your blindspots and *warning* you about attacks. Oh...


----------



## TheGreen1 (Nov 12, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He was sent flying because Naruto is fuckloads stronger than him.
> Kurenai blocked Itachi's kick with 2 arms and was also sent flying.
> 
> Its not like ghost hits get past your guard and break your neck.



*facepalm*

Look, you obviously did not grasp what I was saying. The strength increase by Naruto in Sage Mode, should have caused Deva Path's arms to break, as Naruto exerted enough force to casually toss a boss sized summon hundreds of feet in the air. I never said the Ghost hits should have hit Deva, I said that the force that Naruto was sending should have destroyed Deva's arms with him trying to block.


----------



## JuicyG (Nov 12, 2014)

Alex Payne said:


> I reread Jiraiya vs Pain and...
> 
> Well.
> 
> ...




Im not the one to argue that SM Jiraiya's sensing is on the same level as Naruto's, but I'm in a position to believe that sensing for Jiraiya isnt a passive thing, he has to try and sense.

For example, in the fight vs Pain with Naruto, Nartuo didn't sense that one of the paths had been revived. But having the elder toads on your shoulder isnt a bad thing either as you just showed us


----------



## Alex Payne (Nov 12, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Im not the one to argue that SM Jiraiya's sensing is on the same level as Naruto's, but I'm in a position to believe that sensing for Jiraiya isnt a passive thing, he has to try and sense.
> 
> For example, in the fight vs Pain with Naruto, Nartuo didn't sense that one of the paths had been revived. But having the elder toads on your shoulder isnt a bad thing either as you just showed us


Why wouldn't he constantly be sensing in a fight against three Rinnegan users? Naruto's situation was different - he was focused on every active opponent he knew about. Jiraiya knows that he is up against 3 enemies. Yet when facing just one he completely ignores other two? 

He doesn't mention sensing when talking about Chameleon here. Even though he describes Chameleon's tech as a simple visual concealment. 

He needs Ma's warning when Human Path is behind him.

He gets surprised by Asura sneaking up on him. And while Hell Path is fixing three previously defeated Paths behind those walls he doesn't attempt to sense and gather intel about what's going on. And gets surprised when 6 Paths appeared before him.

That's just too many times when sensing was extremely relevant. Yet wasn't even mentioned.


----------



## JuicyG (Nov 12, 2014)

Alex Payne said:


> Why wouldn't he constantly be sensing in a fight against three Rinnegan users? Naruto's situation was different - he was focused on every active opponent he knew about. Jiraiya knows that he is up against 3 enemies. Yet when facing just one he completely ignores other two?
> 
> He doesn't mention sensing when talking about Chameleon here. Even though he describes Chameleon's tech as a simple visual concealment.
> 
> ...





And yet DB says he has sensing 

Jiraiya has the worst sensing feats of all Sage users, but that doesnt mean he lacks sensing skills.  He said he could sense Nagato but didn't see Nagato. Kishimoto also keeps adding things to Sage Mode, like giving Fukasaku and Shima sensing after their first battle with Pein. Jiraiya has SM's abilities by the virtue of having SM the same way Itachi has copying and enhanced perception by the same virtue that other Sharingan users have shown such abilities while Itachi has not.

Explicitly stats that all users gain sensing abilities 

*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Turrin (Nov 12, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I don't think much changes because I think you're misinterpreting the entry: Jiraiya could never use SM abilities (Frog Fu and sensing) to the level Naruto could. If he could, he would have stomped Pain in the situation he was in.
> 
> I say stomped because Naruto was in that same situation and used the abilities you claim Jiraiya had to stomp Pain.


Munboy i've explained to you 5 times now that he literally could not use Kawazu Kumite w/o those abilities as those are how Kawazu Kumite works. Again your arguing someone can use Rasengan, but can't shape manipulate, which is nonsensical.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 12, 2014)

TheGreen1 said:


> *facepalm*
> 
> Look, you obviously did not grasp what I was saying. The strength increase by Naruto in Sage Mode, should have caused Deva Path's arms to break, as Naruto exerted enough force to casually toss a boss sized summon hundreds of feet in the air. I never said the Ghost hits should have hit Deva, I said that the force that Naruto was sending should have destroyed Deva's arms with him trying to block.



What you said has nothing to do with ghost hits though, so I am not sure why you'd even bring that up.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 12, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Munboy i've explained to you 5 times now that he literally could not use Kawazu Kumite w/o those abilities as those are how Kawazu Kumite works. Again your arguing someone can use Rasengan, but can't shape manipulate, which is nonsensical.



Sure he could use a form of it... but saying he's able to use ghost punches is a step too far: it was not present against Pain. 

A perfect SM user can perfectly control natural energy; they can perfectly control raw natural energy to extend their attacks.
Jiraiya isn't a perfect user. So you can see how that fits. 

The comparison you're making isn't like comparing two Rasengan users. It is like saying a Rasengan user can use Rasenshuriken because they both have Rasengan in them. 
Even with the Rasengan thing there are differences between users. Minato's Rasengan is capable of damage like this... Naruto's used to be like this. Prior Naruto getting stronger should I say Minato = Naruto with Rasengan based on this? Despite Minato's clearly being better?

Going by you because Minato and Naruto are both Rasengan users by the databook, I should assume Jiraiya, Kakashi and Naruto were always capable of doing Minato level damage with Rasengan.
It doesn't matter if the manga shows me different, the databook has spoken.


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (Nov 12, 2014)

GKY said:


> I would probably change that slightly and say SM Jiraiya = Healthy Itachi. Aside from that, I think this is the most sensible thing I've seen a Jiraiya supporter post.



Not at all. Itachi was healthy in part 1 and admitted he couldn't beat jiraiya or they would both die.

Jiraiya not in SM would give itachi a good fight SM Jiraiya >>Healthy Itachi aka part 1 itachi


----------



## Kazekage94 (Nov 12, 2014)

Healthy Itachi demolishes SM Jiraya


----------



## JuicyG (Nov 12, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Healthy Itachi demolishes SM Jiraya




Thanks for your thorough explanation, it was needed


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 13, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Thanks for your thorough explanation, it was needed



Its enough for a 1 sided match like this.


----------



## Bonly (Nov 13, 2014)

If Jiraiya already starts in SM with Ma+Pa then the first strongest character has a a good shot at beating would be Pain arc Naruto


----------



## JuicyG (Nov 13, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its enough for a 1 sided match like this.



Of course it is, considering what your main fan base is


----------



## Icegaze (Nov 13, 2014)

Turrin got carried away
Him and Husain are like that. It's sad 
Because jiraiya is said to use frog kumite doesn't remotely mean he is as good as naruto at using it 
Konohamaru is listed as a rasengan user can we attribute Minato feats to him ?
Now SM naruto is vastly stronger than jiraiya his kick sent deva flying 
Jiraiya punch was caught casually with no effort 
Jiraiya level hasn't changed 
Also frog kumite only works if the enemy tries to evade it's a nifty trick that looses it's appeal if the opponent does the easier thing which is block. So no the ghost punch won't do shit to sandaime 
Or naruto a much better user would have considered it 
Jiraiya level hasn't slightly changed he still looses to itachi that fought sasuke
Should that itachi intend to kill


----------



## Bkprince33 (Nov 13, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Turrin got carried away
> Him and Husain are like that. It's sad
> Because jiraiya is said to use frog kumite doesn't remotely mean he is as good as naruto at using it
> Konohamaru is listed as a rasengan user can we attribute Minato feats to him ?
> ...



you must spread reputation before giving it to ice gaze again


----------



## JuicyG (Nov 13, 2014)

In the next thread concerning Amaterasu vs FRS, its ok to say, Naruto & Sasuke's final clash was a plot thing....since chidori+enton = base rasengan 

*Let me guess, it won't work if I say that Pain vs Jiraiya was a plot thing to cement Pain's legitimacy in the series by killing a Sage user (Sannin+Teacher), and thus Kishi didn't let Jiraiya show good sensing feats or similar traits as any other Sage user, even though DB stats it clearly...?*


----------



## Bkprince33 (Nov 13, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> In the next thread concerning Amaterasu vs FRS, its ok to say, Naruto & Sasuke's final clash was a plot thing....since chidori+enton = base rasengan
> 
> *Let me guess, it won't work if I say that Pain vs Jiraiya was a plot thing to cement Pain's legitimacy in the series by killing a Sage user (Sannin+Teacher), and thus Kishi didn't let Jiraiya show good sensing feats or similar traits as any other Sage user, even though DB stats it clearly...?*



correct me if i'm wrong but i though wind beats the lightning element?


i looked at it like the wind would beat the chidori but the enton made it a stale mate.


im not 100 familiar with nature advantage so i may be wrong


----------



## JuicyG (Nov 13, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> correct me if i'm wrong but i though wind beats the lightning element?
> 
> 
> i looked at it like the wind would beat the chidori but the enton made it a stale mate.
> ...




Thats about as far I as I can see it....but if that were the case, then Sasuke must have known Naruto's base rasengan was going to beat his Chidori. Which is where I get confused because Chidori and Rasengan have been shown to be equals the entire series until then.

But if that is all correct then it should be safe to say FRS > Amaterasu (head2head)


----------



## Bkprince33 (Nov 13, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Thats about as far I as I can see it....but if that were the case, then Sasuke must have known Naruto's base rasengan was going to beat his Chidori. Which is where I get confused because Chidori and Rasengan have been shown to be equals the entire series until then.
> 
> But if that is all correct then it should be safe to say FRS > Amaterasu (head2head)



well all of that is subjective honestly, but at this point we have confirmation on them being equals so the elemental advantage wins.





i don't think that means FRS>amatarasu

 amatarasu does it's damage by attaching and burning, not really a explosive type of technique like rasengon.


----------



## Icegaze (Nov 14, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> In the next thread concerning Amaterasu vs FRS, its ok to say, Naruto & Sasuke's final clash was a plot thing....since chidori+enton = base rasengan
> 
> *Let me guess, it won't work if I say that Pain vs Jiraiya was a plot thing to cement Pain's legitimacy in the series by killing a Sage user (Sannin+Teacher), and thus Kishi didn't let Jiraiya show good sensing feats or similar traits as any other Sage user, even though DB stats it clearly...?*



Truth is everything is plot 
Maybe kishi thought of frog kumite after the fight with pain 
Possible 
However truth is frog kumite even used by naruto isn't as described 
Or deva won't have blocked his kick the kick would have hit deva before he put his hand up since the chakra around naruto would have gotten to deva before his leg did which would make deva loose his timing.  this didn't happen 
One thing is sure though jiraiya is inferior in sage mode this was stated in the manga when shima said naruto has surpassed both jiraiya and Minato


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 14, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> In the next thread concerning Amaterasu vs FRS, its ok to say, Naruto & Sasuke's final clash was a plot thing....since chidori+enton = base rasengan
> 
> *Let me guess, it won't work if I say that Pain vs Jiraiya was a plot thing to cement Pain's legitimacy in the series by killing a Sage user (Sannin+Teacher), and thus Kishi didn't let Jiraiya show good sensing feats or similar traits as any other Sage user, even though DB stats it clearly...?*



They aren't remotely similar though.


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (Nov 14, 2014)

The strongest person Jiraiya can beat potentially is the six paths of pain. With intel of course. And starting is SM.

People forget intel is a HUGE factor of victory or defeat.

If going into the pain fight Jiraiya knew all of Pains secrets I can definitely see him killing pain in a number of different ways. But he never had full intel or nearly any intel at all so arguing for or against is kind of a moot point.

The strongest person SM starting Jiraiya can defeat for sure is Healthy Itachi. I know ppl like Grimmjow will argue against it with his one word arguments but hey everyones got a opinion.


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 15, 2014)

So what I get for this thread is that Jiraiya has the same SM mastery than Naruto, who did better than him Pre-Rikudo.

That's like saying that Kimimaro or Neji are scaled to Kaguya or Itachi's Amaterasu is scaled to Sasuke's


----------



## Icegaze (Nov 15, 2014)

Pretty much hachibi
People boosting jiraiya feats based on false info


----------



## JuicyG (Nov 15, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> So what I get for this thread is that Jiraiya has the same SM mastery than Naruto, who did better than him Pre-Rikudo.
> 
> *That's like saying that Kimimaro or Neji are scaled to Kaguya or Itachi's Amaterasu is scaled to Sasuke's*






That attempt at scaling comparison is ridiculous and you know it. 

Naruto did better than Jiraiya in his fight with pain mainly due to intel advantage, and you know it.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 15, 2014)

I still think the OP is wrong with Jiraiya having ghost punches. Literally nothing backs it up.


----------



## JuicyG (Nov 15, 2014)

Besides DB4 entries on Jiraiya's Sage Mode ^^^^^^^^^^


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 15, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Besides DB4 entries on Jiraiya's Sage Mode ^^^^^^^^^^



And the summon entry doesn't count Danzo and Kabuto as user.


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 15, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> That attempt at scaling comparison is ridiculous and you know it.



It's basically the same thing your doing with Jiraiya. Reverse Powerscaling doesn't work here.



> Naruto did better than Jiraiya in his fight with pain mainly due to intel advantage, and you know it.



I didn't count just the Pain-fight. I was counting how he smacked Kurama and FRS the shit out of him.


----------



## JuicyG (Nov 15, 2014)

^^ Dont know anything about that


Powerscaling Jiraiya to Pain arc Naruto is FAR more realistic than neji to Kaguya


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 15, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> ^^ Dont know anything about that
> 
> 
> Powerscaling Jiraiya to Pain arc Naruto is FAR more realistic than neji to Kaguya



The Neji-Kaguya was just a exemple.

Also Pain-arc Naruto lacked intel. He had more than Jiraiya but he still lacked intel on:
-Deva
-Asura
-Naraka
-Preta
-Human, which didn't matter since he died in the crossfire.


----------



## JuicyG (Nov 15, 2014)

Even with extra intel Naruto still would have died had it not been for Kurama.

Jiraiya had a chance to beat Pain if he had intel....or at least escape. Frog Song would have ended it all if he knew there were 6 paths and got them all in range....still not that likely, but just shows than Naruto - Jiraiya were pretty close in power


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 15, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Besides DB4 entries on Jiraiya's Sage Mode ^^^^^^^^^^



The databook doesn't suggest what you're saying it suggests.

He's a low level user of Frog-Fu incapable of using ghost punches.

Naruto STOMPED Pain in the same circumstances Jiraiya faced using things like Frog-Fu... Jiraiya wouldn't have been the guy who was stomped if he had those abilities. 
Shared vision and Preta Path were problems for Jiraiya simply because he lacked Frog Fu Ghost Punches. Not the case for Naruto, obviously.

Saying Jiraiya has ghost punches because he's listed as a Frog-Fu users is like saying Naruto, pre-Rikudou, could generate Minato level Rasengans because he was listed as a Rasengan user.

The manga shows Minato's base Rasengan being the most destructive... yet by your logic I should assume part 1 Naruto could do the same as he is listed as a user. Thus you're saying I should ignore the manga.


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 15, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Even with extra intel Naruto still would have died had it not been for Kurama.
> 
> Jiraiya had a chance to beat Pain if he had intel....or at least escape. Frog Song would have ended it all if he knew there were 6 paths and got them all in range....still not that likely, but just shows than Naruto - Jiraiya were pretty close in power



You mean that Naruto can't use Frog Song as well and that Pain wasn't restricted because of the Location while it wasn't favorable for Jiraiya?/sarcasm


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## Icegaze (Nov 15, 2014)

Lol SM naruto>>>>>>SM jiraiya
Especially after pain arc when naruto can stay in SM for long periods and dispel clones to keep SM going 
Only advantage jiraiya has is while he is fighting the frogs can gather natural energy 
While they are fighting he can gather natural energy 
However while naruto can't sync with them he can still easily use them to defend his clones gathering natural energy 
Lastly jiraiya was clearly shown to be physically weaker than naruto and both ma and ps said naruto was the better user. Who by the way has no frog features even minato was a better user


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 15, 2014)

The day that the ghost punch Jiraiya people tell me where that ability was when Jiraiya struggled with Preta Path and shared vision is the day I'll believe they actually have a case.

Why? 'Cause Naruto dealt with those same problems using ghost punches.


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## Hachibi (Nov 15, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The day that the ghost punch Jiraiya people tell me where that ability was when Jiraiya struggled with Preta Path and shared vision is the day I'll believe they actually have a case.
> 
> Why? 'Cause Naruto dealt with those same problems using ghost punches.



It dealt with Preta Path temporally because of Naraka tho.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 15, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> It dealt with Preta Path temporally because of Naraka tho.



That's a Naraka Path bringing back bodies problem, nor Preta negating Ninjutsu problem.

However the point is Jiraiya ran away and resorted to elaborate tactics to deal with shared vision and Preta Path. Naruto sorted this out with one ghost punch. 

Does that sound like Jiraiya has ghost punches?


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## Hachibi (Nov 15, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That's a Naraka Path bringing back bodies problem, nor Preta negating Ninjutsu problem.
> 
> However the point is Jiraiya ran away and resorted to elaborate tactics to deal with shared vision and Preta Path. Naruto sorted this out with one ghost punch.
> 
> Does that sound like Jiraiya has ghost punches?



Sound more like Kishi didn't make the DB himself.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 15, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Sound more like Kishi didn't make the DB himself.



True. Though there's also the case of interpreting what you see in the DB in context to what info there is in the manga.

Those superimposing ghost punch Jiraiya aren't doing that.


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## Turrin (Nov 15, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That's a Naraka Path bringing back bodies problem, nor Preta negating Ninjutsu problem.
> 
> However the point is Jiraiya ran away and resorted to elaborate tactics to deal with shared vision and Preta Path. Naruto sorted this out with one ghost punch.
> 
> Does that sound like Jiraiya has ghost punches?


No Naruto didn't. He defeated one path by catching that path off guard with Ghost Punches (Jiriaya was up against 3). After that Ghost Punches never again did anything against Shared vision. And the rest of your assertions directly contradict what is stated in the DB; so basically they amount to arguing against Cannon.



> The day that the ghost punch Jiraiya people tell me where that ability was when Jiraiya struggled with Preta Path and shared vision is the day I'll believe they actually have a case.


Your argument makes no sense whatsoever. Jiriaya aside Fukasaku had Ghost punches, so why didn't he just Ghost punch Pain during the Pain vs Jiriaya battle, huh Munboy, or does the guy who taught Naruto the style also not have Ghost Punches


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## JuicyG (Nov 16, 2014)

Sounds like u guys are picking peas from a pie. Theres not much difference in pain arc naruto and SM jiraiya in power......very slight gap there


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 16, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Sounds like u guys are picking peas from a pie. Theres not much difference in pain arc naruto and SM jiraiya in power......very slight gap there



I wouldn't say that at all; Naruto's senjutsu-enhanced Wind Style: Rasenshuriken, tactical use of shadow clones, and *blatantly* superior physical traits on account of having a perfected Sage Mode create quite the power gap between himself and his former teacher.

I mean, Frog Song is _nice_, but that's quite literally the *only* thing Jiraiya has going for him. Heck, he pretty much admitted he would lose to the *three weakest* Paths of Pain with his entire arsenal at hand, if it weren't for the Elder Sages' timely assistance.

If it were Sage Naruto being triple-teamed by those same bodies, he'd pretty much wipe the floor with them using just Frog Fu punches. Or use clones to make it even easier.

On the other hand, if Jiraiya were placed in the crater of the Leaf Village with nowhere to hide, those Paths would have never lost his location to begin with. They would have, by the Sannin's *own* admission, kicked the shit out of him.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Nov 16, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I wouldn't say that at all; Naruto's senjutsu-enhanced Wind Style: Rasenshuriken, tactical use of shadow clones, and *blatantly* superior physical traits on account of having a perfected Sage Mode create quite the power gap between himself and his former teacher.
> 
> *I mean, Frog Song is nice, but that's quite literally the only thing Jiraiya has going for him. *Heck, he pretty much admitted he would lose to the *three weakest* Paths of Pain with his entire arsenal at hand, if it weren't for the Elder Sages' timely assistance.
> 
> ...



statement one: Thats not true at all Jiraiya had FAR more experience then naruto in combat and in using SM so that right there puts jiraiya above naruto. Even if naruto has more chakra and could be in SM longer naruto was a total idiot.

You forget this is the naruto who after finding out that nagato could absorb all ninjutsu tried to attack him with ninutsu....

statment two: Naruto would be obliterated if 3 or more pains attacked him at once. If you re watch the pain vs naruto fight he only had to fight 1 v 1 the ENTIRE  time. Its all plot no jutsu. No way naruto the moronic fox child could take more then 2 pains attacking him simultaneously he doesn't have the brains nor the experiance. If it wasnt for the sages naruto would have got rofl owned vs pain.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 16, 2014)

Naruto fought pain

And jiraiya fought pain


Naruto fought pain straight up and did far better then jiraiya.

Naruto was tossing boss summons in the air and blitzing paths and fucking shyt up.

Jiraiya had more of a espionage approach and still lost badly

Pain was forced to use deva against naruto, deva didn't even have to join vs jiraiya

The manga has shown us clearly who is superior, a databook statment doesn't change that, no matter how much you guys love jiraiya


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 16, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> statement one: Thats not true at all Jiraiya had FAR more experience then naruto in combat and* in using SM so that right there puts jiraiya above naruto*.



So Jiraiya has spent more time using Sage Mode than Naruto? What's your point? 

Naruto utilizing a *far superior* version of it nullifies _any_ advantages Jiraiya might have, if any, using an inferior one.



> Even if naruto has more chakra and could be in SM longer naruto was a total idiot.



Sage Naruto was a total idiot against the Six Paths of Pain?

How did he consistently outwit the Akatsuki leader at every turn, again? He practically negated Preta Path's abilities on his lonesome using just tactics, and nearly finished off all three Pains were it not for Deva Path regaining his gravity-based powers right on time.

That, right there, screams *high battle intelligence* and strategic thinking that Jiraiya, frankly,  hasn't really demonstrated in any notable capacity.



> You forget this is the naruto who after finding out that nagato could absorb all ninjutsu tried to attack him with ninutsu....



Naruto's thinking is inconsistent because he gets carried away with his own emotions. Hence, attacking Nagato with techniques while panicked, and failing to remember to recharge Sage Mode when attacking Obito with his Tailed Beast Mode form again while filled with warm feelings from his bond with Minato.

But we're talking specifically of *Sage Naruto at the time he fought Pain*, and during said battle, he was highly competent, more so than his own master.

I even have a theory that Naruto is able to think more clearly and act 'smarter' when using Sage Mode, which requires you to calm down and become one with nature - and this enables him to* focus* on the situation at hand. Hence, every time he used Sage Mode in the manga, there was always a display of remarkable observation or analysis:

*1)* Outsmarting Pain on multiple occasions, 
*2)* Using clones to blindside and outwit Kurama
*3)* Figuring out the Third Raikage's weakness and using it to his advantage at the last second
*4)* Developing a method to remove the Four-Tails' chakra rod by using Frog Fu inside its throat
*5)* Figuring out Obito's weakness and timing his attack with Tobirama's Flying Thunder God with perfect precision, etc.



> statment two: Naruto would be obliterated if 3 or more pains attacked him at once. If you re watch the pain vs naruto fight he only had to fight 1 v 1 the ENTIRE  time. Its all plot no jutsu. No way naruto the moronic fox child could take more then 2 pains attacking him simultaneously he doesn't have the brains nor the experiance.



Pain never fought Naruto with multiple bodies, indeed.

But if he did - and more to the point, with Human, Preta, and Animal Path, as he did Jiraiya? I have *zero* doubts in my mind that Sage Naruto would have steamrolled them without much effort.

Preta Path would've have been finished with a _single strike_, Human Path broken with Frog Fu punches or Kurama-flipping physical strength, and Animal Path eventually overwhelmed with _Sage Art: Giant Rasengans_ and _Rasenshuriken_ flying her way.

Clones play an *enormous* advantage, especially with one as adept with the technique as Naruto. Jiraiya on the other hand, explicitly confessed that he'd be finished by those same three Pains if it weren't for Frog Song.

And guess what? In the same battlefield wherein Naruto battled Pain, Jiraiya would have *never* gotten the chance to prepare that genjutsu. Those three Pains would have stomped him into the ground.

Can you seriously say the same for Sage Naruto? I can't.



> If it wasnt for the sages naruto would have got rofl owned vs pain.



The Elder Sages didn't do shit besides hold back summons that Naruto could have kicked into the stratosphere anyways.


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## Hachibi (Nov 16, 2014)

The databook is secondary canon while the manga is primary canon.

Not that the DB is always reliable.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 16, 2014)

TBH last DB lost lot of credibility in my eyes. I'd still take DB3 as a primary source of outside information.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 16, 2014)

Turrin said:


> No Naruto didn't. He defeated one path by catching that path off guard with Ghost Punches (Jiriaya was up against 3). After that Ghost Punches never again did anything against Shared vision. And the rest of your assertions directly contradict what is stated in the DB; so basically they amount to arguing against Cannon.



All the paths had him on watch via shared vision. Naruto stomped a Pain looking at him; Jiraiya's job was easier as one Pain (less eyes keeping an eye on him) wasn't even looking at him. 

Ghost punches are the reason why Naruto said he'd attack Pain with an attack he can't say.

Your entire stance contradicts canon. You're saying Jiraiya has ghost punches of a false interpretation of the databook. Your stance will be seen as reaching unless you have manga evidence... if you have that, then I'm arguing against canon. Currently you are hinging on the databook with no manga support.



> Your argument makes no sense whatsoever. Jiriaya aside Fukasaku had Ghost punches, so why didn't he just Ghost punch Pain during the Pain vs Jiriaya battle, huh Munboy, or does the guy who taught Naruto the style also not have Ghost Punches



Fukasaku had a different tactic altogether going by the battle. However unlike your questionable Jiraiya argument there *is* manga evidence Fukasaku has ghost punches. He was never in a situation where he needed to use it, for starters.

Jiraiya, you have no stance here. Why? You're failing to provide manga evidence. You're also failing to tell us why Jiraiya didn't use an ability which would have *easily* taken care of Preta Path and shared vision (like Naruto did) rather than run away talking about how Pain would kill him if he didn't resort to Genjutsu.

Could be... maybe... Jiraiya lacks ghost punches!
His usage is the LOWEST level of frog fu i.e. so low he cannot use ghost punches like Fukasaku and Naruto. 
Being a low level user still counts as being a user; part 1 Naruto and Minato are BOTH listed as Rasengan users despite Minato being better with it. Though by your logic they should be the same 'cause manga is wrong and databook is right.

The actual logical conclusion: Minato and part 1 Naruto are Rasengan users; Minato is a better Rasengan user thus can do more damage. Naruto and Jiraiya are frog fu users; Naruto is a better frog fu users, hence can use ghost punches more efficiently.

Unless, to keep consistent with the stance you're arguing, you want to say plot stopped Naruto from hitting Kabuto with a Minato level Rasengan.


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> All the paths had him on watch via shared vision. Naruto stomped a Pain looking at him; Jiraiya's job was easier as one Pain (less eyes keeping an eye on him) wasn't even looking at him.


I don't see how that's relevant to the conversation. My point was Ghost punch was only good for one surprise attack, it was not a consistent counter to shared vision. 



> Your entire stance contradicts canon. You're saying Jiraiya has ghost punches of a false interpretation of the databook. Your stance will be seen as reaching unless you have manga evidence... if you have that, then I'm arguing against canon. .


False interpretation, i'm the one whose been translating the dam thing lol. This is like a translator telling you the kanji 黒 stands for black and you arguing that it stands for white, with absolutely no knowledge of the language. It's ridiculous Munboy. 



> Currently you are hinging on the databook with no manga support


If the DB tells us new information than that is cannon unless it's retecon'd in the manga, which is not the case here. This is like you telling me that Hakujya Sennin can't pass down natural energy via his bite, because we didn't see it in the manga. The DB tells us new information.



> Fukasaku had a different tactic altogether going by the battle. However unlike your questionable Jiraiya argument there is manga evidence Fukasaku has ghost punches. He was never in a situation where he needed to use it, for starter


What is this nonsense Munboy? You've literally made dozens of posts now claiming that Jiraiya does not have Ghost punches because if he did he would have used it against Pain. Fukasaku was in the same position as Jiriaya against Pain. So following your own logic Fukasaku must not have ghost punches because he choose not to use them against Pain. 



> Jiraiya, you have no stance here. Why? You're failing to provide manga evidence. You're also failing to tell us why Jiraiya didn't use an ability which would have easily taken care of Preta Path and shared vision (like Naruto did) rather than run away talking about how Pain would kill him if he didn't resort to Genjutsu.


I've already explained it to you multiple times. Ghost Punches may have enabled them to catch one body off guard and defeat that body, but it would not defeat all 3 Pains, so the Genjutsu strategy was more prudent because it could take down all 3 at once. 



> His usage is the LOWEST level of frog fu i.e. so low he cannot use ghost punches like Fukasaku and Naruto.
> Being a low level user still counts as being a user; part 1 Naruto and Minato are BOTH listed as Rasengan users despite Minato being better with it. Though by your logic they should be the same 'cause manga is wrong and databook is right


Again there is no Kawazu Kumite w/o being able to use Ghost Punches. Sure their might be higher levels of mastery possible, like someone could extend their Ghost Punches further than others or something like that (though that is never stated anywhere), but Ghost Punches are a basic mechanic of the Jutsu.

So yes someone can be listed as a Rasengan user while being inferior to a better Rasengan user, but they can still use Rasengan and the basic mechanics behind it: releasing chakra, rotating it, shaping it. If Jiriaya couldn't use Ghost Punches he wouldn't be a Kawazu Kumite user, since that is a basic mechanic.

I don't know how much simpler I can make this for you.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 16, 2014)

> I don't know how much simpler I can make this for you.



Then lets save a lot of time and boil this down to thee most simple aspect: do you have manga evidence to support your claim: yes or no. 

"Yes" means we can proceed. "No" means you have no strong stance.


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## JuicyG (Nov 16, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Naruto's senjutsu-enhanced Wind Style: Rasenshuriken,




Jiraiya didn't have FRS, but he was using huge Odama Rasengans, as well as having Frog Song. Plus Ma/Pa was fused with Jiraiya unlike Naruto which enhanced his in coming natural energy.



ATastyMuffin said:


> account of having a perfected Sage Mode



Imperfect sage mode just means that Jiraiya didn't balance chakras perfectly. Besides the trait of a worse apperance, nothing is stated to be different between a "perfect" sage and Jiraiya's. I feel like I explain this every other day to someone else smh



ATastyMuffin said:


> I mean, Frog Song is _nice_, but that's quite literally the *only* thing Jiraiya has going for him.



Frog song is a game ender....

Jiraiya went into that fight with Pain without ANY knowledge at all. He also fought pain starting in Base form, unlike Naruto. If this was the case for Naruto, he would have been killed just the same as Jiraiya. 

And with all that extra intel Naruto had, he still would have died if it werent for Kurama and Hinata saving him.




Bkprince33 said:


> Naruto fought pain straight up and did far better then jiraiya.



Because Naruto had intel and started the fight in sage mode....how do you not realize that is a HUGE advantage. Jiraiya was starting in base form with no info on pain




Bkprince33 said:


> The manga has shown us clearly who is superior, a databook statment doesn't change that, no matter how much you guys love jiraiya



Whether you accept it or not. Thousands of fans who read DB will take that information into account about Jiraiya, no matter how much you like Itachi.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 16, 2014)

It is the end of the manga and we're having people doubt SM Naruto's supremacy over SM Jiraiya.


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Then lets save a lot of time and boil this down to thee most simple aspect: do you have manga evidence to support your claim: yes or no.
> 
> "Yes" means we can proceed. "No" means you have no strong stance.


So basically anything that is not shown in the manga doesn't count. None of the new information from the DB counts, because it wasn't shown in the manga. Kishi only has a certain amount of time to show things; characters like Jiriaya probably have dozens if not hundreds of jutsu/abilities that they never showed in the manga cannon, because kishi doesn't have time to show everyone's complete arsenal. 

In reality if the author states a character has a certain ability in the DB, you better bring to the table dam good evidence for why we should discount that, which you aren't doing here. Your entire argument rests on why didn't Jiriaya use it, yet Fukasaku also didn't use it, despite being a master of it, and therefore you argument falls flat on it's face, but you don't want to address this, because than you wouldn't have a leg to stand on. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It is the end of the manga and we're having people doubt SM Naruto's supremacy over SM Jiraiya.


Probably because he's not superior. Literally the only difference in their SM's is as the DB describes Jiriaya's having slightly more Toad features. So suddenly Naruto being slightly better at balancing the three energies is going to make up for Jiriaya vastly superior Base-abilities, wisdom/exp/intelligence/knowledge, and much longer duration of Sennin Modo. It doesn't make sense Munboy. Naruto surpassed Jiriaya in his ability w/ Senjutsu in the Pain arc, but only slightly and literally in nothing else, besides raw chakra.


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## JuicyG (Nov 16, 2014)

Im not comparing EoS naruto with jman at all......


my focus is that sm jman & pain arc sm naruto are the same level....


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## Hachibi (Nov 16, 2014)

DB is considered more canon than the manga itself now.

How time changed.


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## JuicyG (Nov 16, 2014)

DB is a direct reference to the canon series....

Obviously there are some inconsistencies in the databooks about the series. But not everything is incorrect either.  I think we have to look at what DB says and look what happened in the series and think about it objectively.


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## Hachibi (Nov 16, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> DB is a direct reference to the canon series....
> 
> Obviously there are some inconsistencies in the databooks about the series. But not everything is incorrect either.  I think we have to look at what DB says and look what happened in the series and think about it objectively.



We never trust the DB completly because of its inconsistency (ie Madara not being a Kekkei Mota user even tho he can use two jutsu which are Kekkei Mota) and because of its hype (ie Rasenshuriken being the most marvelous jutsu ever or Rikudo Senjutsu using the power of the Cosmos.)


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 16, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> DB is considered more canon than the manga itself now.
> 
> How time changed.



Only when it is convenient.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 16, 2014)

Turrin said:


> So basically anything that is not shown in the manga doesn't count. None of the new information from the DB counts, because it wasn't shown in the manga. Kishi only has a certain amount of time to show things; characters like Jiriaya probably have dozens if not hundreds of jutsu/abilities that they never showed in the manga cannon, because kishi doesn't have time to show everyone's complete arsenal.
> 
> In reality if the author states a character has a certain ability in the DB, you better bring to the table dam good evidence for why we should discount that, which you aren't doing here. Your entire argument rests on why didn't Jiriaya use it, yet Fukasaku also didn't use it, despite being a master of it, and therefore you argument falls flat on it's face, but you don't want to address this, because than you wouldn't have a leg to stand on.



I'm going to take this explanation as you have nothing in the manga to support your claim. Databook evidence can only be used adequately when you support its comments with the manga. Sometimes you have leeway i.e. Minato and Neji having several chakra natures. However with cases like the one you're arguing (SM Jiraiya having ghost punches) it becomes questionable. He didn't use it in the most logical time he could have; Naruto dealt with his biggest issue (shared vision and Preta) with said ability. Ergo he was a low level user (see the Rasengan analogy) incapable of ghost punching. 
I've said this several times; you and I know very well that databook evidence such as this is worthless (if we're ascribing characters strong abilities) if it is not confluent with the manga. Remember the Rasengan anaology.

We're led to believe Fukasaku used the ghost punching when he was training with Naruto. Naruto didn't self teach ghost punching. 

Your argument will always fail because of the fact that you cannot explain why Jiraiya didn't use it to get out of his predicament with Pain.



> Probably because he's not superior. Literally the only difference in their SM's is as the DB describes Jiriaya's having slightly more Toad features. So suddenly Naruto being slightly better at balancing the three energies is going to make up for Jiriaya vastly superior Base-abilities, wisdom/exp/intelligence/knowledge, and much longer duration of Sennin Modo. It doesn't make sense Munboy. Naruto surpassed Jiriaya in his ability w/ Senjutsu in the Pain arc, but only slightly and literally in nothing else, besides raw chakra.



I'm not having a debating this issue; it was settled that SM Naruto's sage abilities were superior in *2008*.


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## Senjuclan (Nov 16, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I'm going to take this explanation as you have nothing in the manga to support your claim. Databook evidence can only be used adequately when you support its comments with the manga. Sometimes you have leeway i.e. Minato and Neji having several chakra natures. However with cases like the one you're arguing (SM Jiraiya having ghost punches) it becomes questionable. He didn't use it in the most logical time he could have; Naruto dealt with his biggest issue (shared vision and Preta) with said ability. Ergo he was a low level user (see the Rasengan analogy) incapable of ghost punching.
> I've said this several times; you and I know very well that databook evidence such as this is worthless (if we're ascribing characters strong abilities) if it is not confluent with the manga. Remember the Rasengan anaology.
> 
> We're led to believe Fukasaku used the ghost punching when he was training with Naruto. Naruto didn't self teach ghost punching.
> ...



Dude, your entire argument is Jiraiya does not have ghost punches because (1) he did not use them in the manga and (2) he did not use them to deal with shared vision

Ok. Let me turn the question on you. You believe Fukusaku has ghost punches. Show me where he used them in the manga or why he did not use them against Deva when he killed his ass? Answer me please


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 16, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> Dude, your entire argument is Jiraiya does not have ghost punches because (1) he did not use them in the manga and (2) he did not use them to deal with shared vision
> 
> Ok. Let me turn the question on you. You believe Fukusaku has ghost punches. Show me where he used them in the manga or why he did not use them against Deva when he killed his ass? Answer me please



Pa never fought anyone with taijutsu. 

And his arms are very small, even with ghost punches his reach should be laughable compared to an adult. So there was no fucking way ghost punches could have helped when Deva used Frog kebab no jutsu on him.


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I'm going to take this explanation as you have nothing in the manga to support your claim. Databook evidence can only be used adequately when you support its comments with the manga. Sometimes you have leeway i.e. Minato and Neji having several chakra natures. However with cases like the one you're arguing (SM Jiraiya having ghost punches) it becomes questionable. He didn't use it in the most logical time he could have; Naruto dealt with his biggest issue (shared vision and Preta) with said ability. Ergo he was a low level user (see the Rasengan analogy) incapable of ghost punching.
> .


And once again that logic falls flat because Fukasaku also could have used Ghost Punches and did not. 



> We're led to believe Fukasaku used the ghost punching when he was training with Naruto. Naruto didn't self teach ghost punching.


Okay, and Fukasaku was in the Pain fight with Jiriaya so why didn't he use Ghost punches then, if it would have been so beneficial?



> Your argument will always fail because of the fact that you cannot explain why Jiraiya didn't use it to get out of his predicament with Pain.


Your argument fails because it's based on a blatant contradiction. Jiraiya definately doesn't have Ghost punches because he didn't use them against Pain, but Fukasaku who has ghost punches also didn't use them on Pain, so literally that proves nothing. 



> I'm not having a debating this issue; it was settled that SM Naruto's sage abilities were superior in 2008.


Sage abilities yes, slightly, but not overall.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Pa never fought anyone with taijutsu.
> 
> And his arms are very small, even with ghost punches his reach should be laughable compared to an adult. So there was no fucking way ghost punches could have helped when Deva used Frog kebab no jutsu on him.


I believe Senju clan is talking about when Fukasaku was fused with Jiriaya, and that Jiriaya could position Fukasaku so his Ghost punch would reach.

And Pa did indeed fight SM-Naruto with Taijutsu.

Edit: Though the entire idea of X didn't use Y ability in Z way therefore X doesn't have Y ability is ridiculously silly to begin with. Kishi is trying to tell a story in a certain way and does not always think of every option, does not have time to show every option, or said option doesn't conform to the flow of the plot. Fukasaku and Shima should have started the Pain battle with Frog-Song for instance, but there isn't some technical reason why they didn't do so, it's just that Kishi ether didn't think of that as a better strategy or Kishi didn't want them to do that because than Naruto would beat Pain or the entire flow of the battle would have to be changed to accommodate for that. That's just one example there, when there are literally hundreds.


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## Kai (Nov 16, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Im not comparing EoS naruto with jman at all......
> 
> 
> my focus is that sm jman & pain arc sm naruto are the same level....


We have a direct statement from Pa saying Naruto "surpassed his predecessors" in regards to the Sage Arts.


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2014)

Kai said:


> We have a direct statement from Pa saying Naruto "surpassed his predecessors" in regards to the Sage Arts.



I don't see why Naruto being slightly better at Senjutsu means he's better than Jiriaya overall, which I believe is what is being argued here. Naruto was slightly better at balancing the three energies than Jiraiya, but Jiriaya's base abilities were vastly superior to Naruto's in every regard except stamina, in which he didn't fall drastically far behind in ether. This on top of greater wisdom/exp/intelligence and being able to use the fusion with the Elder Toads, which Kurama prevented Naruto from doing, I think is more than enough to place Jiriaya above Naruto, despite Naruto being slightly better at Senjutsu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 16, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I believe Senju clan is talking about when Fukasaku was fused with Jiriaya, and that Jiriaya could position Fukasaku so his Ghost punch would reach.


Or accidentally hit Jiraiya's temple and kill him 
I don't think someone literally an inch from  your face swining ghost punches would be a good idea. I just don't think they could assist with taijutsu in that position, given their limited mobility and their already very limited reach due to their tiny arms.




> And Pa did indeed fight SM-Naruto with Taijutsu.


Which was only for a panel or two and it was just a sparring session and most of it was off paneled.

The point is, Pa never got a chance to demonstrate his taijutsu skills, kawazu kumite in particular.



> [
> *Edit: Though the entire idea of X didn't use Y ability in Z way therefore X doesn't have Y ability is ridiculously silly to begin with*. Kishi is trying to tell a story in a certain way and does not always think of every option, does not have time to show every option, or said option doesn't conform to the flow of the plot. Fukasaku and Shima should have started the Pain battle with Frog-Song for instance, but there isn't some technical reason why they didn't do so, it's just that Kishi ether didn't think of that as a better strategy or Kishi didn't want them to do that because than Naruto would beat Pain or the entire flow of the battle would have to be changed to accommodate for that. That's just one example there, when there are literally hundreds.



Actually it is just common sense. Also plot is a pretty good excuse for when characters don't use their trump cards immediately, but in Jiraiya's Kawazu Kumite case, plot, cis or pis are no excuses. Context is very important.


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## Kai (Nov 16, 2014)

Turrin said:
			
		

> I don't see why Naruto being slightly better at Senjutsu means he's better than Jiriaya overall, which I believe is what is being argued here. Naruto was slightly better at balancing the three energies than Jiraiya, but Jiriaya's base abilities were vastly superior to Naruto's in every regard except stamina, in which he didn't fall drastically far behind in ether. This on top of greater wisdom/exp/intelligence and being able to use the fusion with the Elder Toads, which Kurama prevented Naruto from doing, I think is more than enough to place Jiriaya above Naruto, despite Naruto being slightly better at Senjutsu.


Well, having a thread where Jiraiya starts in SM fused with the Elder Toads is purposely removing an obvious distinction between a perfect and an imperfect Sage. Under neutral conditions where both Naruto and Jiraiya face each other in base, Naruto will enter Sage Mode quickly with his perfect balancing of the three energies, and Jiraiya won't have the time necessary to enter the state with his imperfect skill. 

Also, why would Fukusaku/Shima be throwing ghost punches around when they're the ones constantly gathering natural energy for Jiraiya?

As an imperfect Sage, I'd also imagine Jiraiya's duration in the state would be shorter than a perfect Sage's, without the toad fusion. Like I said, of course if we talk about Jiraiya's fusion with the toads and ignore the time spent to fully compensate his weaknesses, he's on or slightly above Naruto's level.


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## Empathy (Nov 16, 2014)

A high Kage such as Muu is the highest I could give him with certainty, but that would be if Jiraiya started in base. Starting in _Sennin Modo_ is a pretty big advantage, and I guess I'd give him a slight edge over Itachi in that case. Safer bets would be Killer Bee or Kakashi, in my opinion. These are all opponents I'd give Sennin Jiraiya the benefit of the doubt for the majority of the time. For minority victories, he canonically has the capability to beat Pain, at least in Amegakure, but that probably won't happen more often than not. 

Also, why does Turrin call him, "_Jiriaya_?"


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## Senjuclan (Nov 16, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Pa never fought anyone with taijutsu.
> 
> And his arms are very small, even with ghost punches his reach should be laughable compared to an adult. So there was no fucking way ghost punches could have helped when Deva used Frog kebab no jutsu on him.



His arms are big enough to spar with Naruto and strong enough to lift Bunta. The question is why did he not use ghost punch to defeat Deva?


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## ZE (Nov 16, 2014)

IMO Jiraiya can beat Nagato, Itachi and people on that level. At least he has the tools to do so, frog song being the most important tool he has. I don't think he would beat Minato or Tobirama because they are way too fast for Jiraiya to touch them with his sage mode strength, or even with frog song.

In short, I don't think it is impossible for Jiraiya to beat Pain, Nagato or Itachi. But I see it hard for him to have any chance of touching Minato/Tobirama.


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Or accidentally hit Jiraiya's temple and kill him
> I don't think someone literally an inch from  your face swining ghost punches would be a good idea. I just don't think they could assist with taijutsu in that position, given their limited mobility and their already very limited reach due to their tiny arms.


I can't imagine a master can't use it this way, I really can't. 



> Which was only for a panel or two and it was just a sparring session and most of it was off paneled.
> 
> The point is, Pa never got a chance to demonstrate his taijutsu skills, kawazu kumite in particular.


Agreed, but he could have used Kawazu Kumite a few times in the battles against Pain, he just choose not to, like Jiriaya. There is really no difference here.



> Actually it is just common sense. Also plot is a pretty good excuse for when characters don't use their trump cards immediately, but in Jiraiya's Kawazu Kumite case, plot, cis or pis are no excuses. Context is very important.


Kishi not wanting to show all of SM skills for no good reason is a perfectly ration reason as to why Jiriaya would not show it.

Again I understand that people can make a case for why X might imply Jiraiya doesn't have SM sensing and ghost punches, but there are also other explanations for X, and considering he's stated to have those things in DBIV, the other explanations become the much more credible stand point to have.



Kai said:


> Well, having a thread where Jiraiya starts in SM fused with the Elder Toads is purposely removing an obvious distinction between a perfect and an imperfect Sage. Under neutral conditions where both Naruto and Jiraiya face each other in base, Naruto will enter Sage Mode quickly with his perfect balancing of the three energies,


The purpose of the thread wasn't to measure Naruto vs Jiraiya, if it were I would have made the conditions more conducive to that. 



> Naruto will enter Sage Mode quickly with his perfect balancing of the three energies, and Jiraiya won't have the time necessary to enter the state with his imperfect skill.


This depends heavily on what techniques the two decide to use, distance, knowledge, and location. If Jiriaya uses his vastly superior base-skills to pressure Naruto, even though Naruto can enter SM quicker her may still not get that time before being defeated. Depending on the location and distance both may have time to enter SM w/ little resistance. Than there could be instances where Naruto reaches Sennin Modo first, and kicks Jiraiya ass. That's why I don't think they are that far apart in skill, but I do think Jiriaya is overall the superior ninja because his base abilities are just so far above Naruto's.



> Also, why would Fukusaku/Shima be throwing ghost punches around when they're the ones constantly gathering natural energy for Jiraiya?


The same way they were throwing around Jutsu and tongue attacks 



> As an imperfect Sage, I'd also imagine Jiraiya's duration in the state would be shorter than a perfect Sage's, without the toad fusion. Like I said, of course if we talk about Jiraiya's fusion with the toads and ignore the time spent to fully compensate his weaknesses, he's on or slightly above Naruto's level.


To me Jiriaya is slightly above Naruto overall, if he gets to start in SM, than the gap is a bit wider than that, though still small.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I can't imagine a master can't use it this way, I really can't.


Man look @ his position.

_Link_

For him to be able to assist with taijutsu, Jiraiya needs to position himself literally an inch away from his opponent, and that'd take away Jiraiya's capability of fighting because you can't punch or kick proplerly if you are an inch away from your opponent. Jiriaya is a tall dude with a greater reach than your average person. The way he positions himself in fights leaves no chance for Fukasaku to contribute with taijutsu because all of the opponents would be out of his reach naturally. Unless you think ghost punches can extend as long as chakra arms, which is a feat that is yet to be demonstrated.



> Agreed, but he could have used Kawazu Kumite a few times in the battles against Pain, he just choose not to, like Jiriaya. There is really no difference here.


Umm no. Fukasaku never directly fought Pain. He was always in the assisting position and through out all that, he literally had no chance to use Kawazu Kumite. Jiriaya on the other hand had plently, so it is't even remotely similar.



> Kishi not wanting to show all of SM skills for no good reason is a perfectly ration reason as to why Jiriaya would not show it.


I think Jiraiya being an imperfect sage and Naruto being a perfect one and showcasing new abilities is the perfect reason for that.
When you know that fact, you don't even question why Jiriaya hasn't shown sensing, better strength or speed feats or ghost punches.



> Again I understand that people can make a case for why X might imply Jiraiya doesn't have SM sensing and ghost punches, but there are also other explanations for X, and considering he's stated to have those things in DBIV, the other explanations become the much more credible stand point to have.


DB is pretty vague in that regard. 
It only lists Jiraiya among the people who can use Kawazu Kumite, but it doesn't specify to what extend he can use it. 
Claiming that his mastery of Nature energy was as good as Naruto is manga contradictory. So it is safe to assume that Jiriaya's use of Kawazu Kumite was very limited as showcased in the manga.
You are basically trying to justify Jiraiya's lack of feats in the manga because of a DB entry.
I am sorry but DB isn't qualified enough to overwrite the manga. It is the otherway around.
The moment DB contradicts manga, we look @ feats in the manga.
If the DB had a detailed explanation on why Jiraiha didn't use ghost punches in the manga, or why he is perfectly capable of using them as well as Naruto, then I'd re consider my stance. But we both know that is not the case.



Senjuclan said:


> His arms are big enough to spar with Naruto and strong enough to lift Bunta. The question is why did he not use ghost punch to defeat Deva?



Like I said, he lacks the range. _Link_
There was no way he could have reached Deva through the rod.

Also he was trying to prepare frog song, he was caught completely off guard.


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## Turrin (Nov 17, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Man look @ his position.
> 
> 1
> 
> For him to be able to assist with taijutsu, Jiraiya needs to position himself literally an inch away from his opponent, and that'd take away Jiraiya's capability of fighting because you can't punch or kick proplerly if you are an inch away from your opponent. Jiriaya is a tall dude with a greater reach than your average person. The way he positions himself in fights leaves no chance for Fukasaku to contribute with taijutsu because all of the opponents would be out of his reach naturally. Unless you think ghost punches can extend as long as chakra arms, which is a feat that is yet to be demonstrated.


First off Fukasaku can extend from Jiraiya's body so that extends his reach and Kawazu Kumite would extend it a bit further as well. It wouldn't be quite as big as Jiraiya's reach, but if Kawazu Kumite would have really resolved all of their problems against Pain, than I see no reason why Fukasaku wouldn't bring this up and simply have Jiraiya get slightly closer to the enemy to allow him to throw a punch. 



> Umm no. Fukasaku never directly fought Pain. He was always in the assisting position and through out all that, he literally had no chance to use Kawazu Kumite. Jiriaya on the other hand had plently, so it is't even remotely similar.


Fukasaku did fight Pain, he was using Jutsu alongside Jiraiya and even Jiraiya's triumph card was Fukasaku's Jutsu. During their little strategy session there is no reason why Fukasaku couldn't have brought up Kawazu Kumite.



> I think Jiraiya being an imperfect sage and Naruto being a perfect one and showcasing new abilities is the perfect reason for that.
> When you know that fact, you don't even question why Jiriaya hasn't shown sensing, better strength or speed feats or ghost punches.


This explanation can make sense, but it doesn't have to be the case. Nothing in the manga states this is true. So when DBIV comes along and says Jiraiya has those things, well that explanation becomes debunked. Otherwise were ignoring a canonical source for a reason that the manga does not demand has to be true. 



> DB is pretty vague in that regard.
> It only lists Jiraiya among the people who can use Kawazu Kumite, but it doesn't specify to what extend he can use it.
> Claiming that his mastery of Nature energy was as good as Naruto is manga contradictory. So it is safe to assume that Jiriaya's use of Kawazu Kumite was very limited as showcased in the manga.


The DB is not vague at all. It literally says the mechanics of Kawazu Kumite depends on being able to use SM sensing and Ghost punches. So Jiraiya being listed as a user demands that he's able to utilize these abilities at least up to the standards that Kawazu Kumite demands to work.



> You are basically trying to justify Jiraiya's lack of feats in the manga because of a DB entry.
> I am sorry but DB isn't qualified enough to overwrite the manga. It is the otherway around.
> The moment DB contradicts manga, we look @ feats in the manga.
> If the DB had a detailed explanation on why Jiraiha didn't use ghost punches in the manga, or why he is perfectly capable of using them as well as Naruto, then I'd re consider my stance. But we both know that is not the case.


The manga doesn't tell use Jiraiya doesn't have Kawazu Kumite or can't sense/use ghost punches. You personally have an issue with it, because you think he should have used it against Pain. That's not the manga telling us anything, other than the characters aren't fighting the way we think they should. I think the characters could fight better in almost every battle in the series by using Jutsu they did not or using them better; that doesn't mean i'm taking the Jutsu away from these characters because of that or that the manga is contradicting the DB which blatantly says they have those abilities.


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## Senjuclan (Nov 17, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Like I said, he lacks the range. Fukasaku can extend from Jiraiya's body
> There was no way he could have reached Deva through the rod.
> 
> Also he was trying to prepare frog song, he was caught completely off guard.



1. Since you only go with manga statements, show me where the manga states the range of ghost punches
2. kakashi was caught off guard and yet survived. You see? Plot dictates everything


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## Gibbs (Nov 17, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> I think he's speaking of living Itachi.
> 
> I think Edo Itachi is clearly above Jiraiya


Nope. Edo itachi is still below SM Jiraiya. Itachi would have no counter to Gamarinsho. He required Sasuke to genjutsu him to get out of Tauyuya's genjutsu, which doesn't compare to Gamarinsho.


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## JuicyG (Nov 17, 2014)

Edo Itachi's feats with KCM Naruto, Bee, and Nagato-SM Kabuto put Itachi above SM Jiraiya in almost all cases.

Trust me I am not an Itachi fan, so when I say Itachi beats Jiraiya in Edo form everytime, that means he does,

Now for living Itachi vs SM Jiraiya is where I think Jiraiya would beat Itachi


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## Gibbs (Nov 17, 2014)

Ok Kishimoto.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 17, 2014)

Turrin said:


> And once again that logic falls flat because Fukasaku also could have used Ghost Punches and did not.



When, tell me when and why he would use them. We know why Jiraiya would use them *if he had them*. However you seem to thin Fukasaku didn't use it when he could have and when he should have; inform me. 



> Okay, and Fukasaku was in the Pain fight with Jiriaya so why didn't he use Ghost punches then, if it would have been so beneficial?



He wasn't fighting Pain, he was supporting Naruto. Who else would be throwing Gamabunta around and proving general back up such as getting Naruto's clone into the field?

Before you say Shima, even with Jiraiya, Fukasaku took command. 



> Your argument fails because it's based on a blatant contradiction. Jiraiya definately doesn't have Ghost punches because he didn't use them against Pain, but Fukasaku who has ghost punches also didn't use them on Pain, so literally that proves nothing.



What contradiction? I say Naruto and Jiraiya both are frog kata users. However the latter obviously isn't on the level to use ghost punches. Hence he didn't in a situation that would have been changed if he had them.
You see Jiraiya's name, ignore the manga and fix on the databook. *That* is a bona fide contradictory argument: you're openly disregarding canon. 

Tell me when and why Fukasaku would use them. We know the same problem Jiraiya ran away from was solved when Naruto used simple ghost punches.



> Sage abilities yes, slightly, but not overall.



Overall: the comment on sage abilities was already made prior the overall comment.



Senjuclan said:


> Dude, your entire argument is Jiraiya does not have ghost punches because (1) he did not use them in the manga and (2) he did not use them to deal with shared vision



And what's yours? You prefer the databook implication so you ignore canon?
*That* is literally the foundation of your argument.



> Ok. Let me turn the question on you. You believe Fukusaku has ghost punches. Show me where he used them in the manga or why he did not use them against Deva when he killed his ass? Answer me please



He trained with Naruto. Unless you think they were floating Juubi style.

The Deva example shows me that you, yourself do not understand how frog katas work. You tell me how it would help Fukasaku there. Hint: how is he going to put the requires focus when he's being drawn in by an incredibly powerful force?

I like how you make the extra effort to AVOID explaining why Jiraiya didn't use it. Why did he not use it when Preta Path and shared vision were giving him so much problems? Naruto solved both problems with ghost punches. Now if Jiraiya had ghost punches that means he would've done the same.

Unless... we listen to the manga: Jiraiya is incapable of ghost punches.


Also Turrin and yourself always fail to address the Rasengan analogy:
Naruto (part 1) and Minato were both listed as users of Rasengan.
Minato's Rasengan did a lot of damage, but Naruto is also a user of Rasengan.
Just because part 1 Naruto is a user of Rasengan, should I assume his Rasengan is on the same level as Minato's?

Before I can adequately proceed with either of you, I want to see your input on that.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2014)

Turrin said:


> First off Fukasaku can extend from Jiraiya's body so that extends his reach and Kawazu Kumite would extend it a bit further as well. It wouldn't be quite as big as Jiraiya's reach, but if Kawazu Kumite would have really resolved all of their problems against Pain, than I see no reason why Fukasaku wouldn't bring this up and simply have Jiraiya get slightly closer to the enemy to allow him to throw a punch.


I think that still wouldn't be effective as a tactic. I also think the main reason why ma & pa are there is because they have to draw in nature energy, so if something happens to them, Jiraiya is fucked. The most logical thing for them to do is to stay away from harms way as much as possible. Pa trying to take the front likes with Kawazu Kumite would work against that.




> Fukasaku did fight Pain, he was using Jutsu alongside Jiraiya and even Jiraiya's triumph card was Fukasaku's Jutsu. During their little strategy session there is no reason why Fukasaku couldn't have brought up Kawazu Kumite.


I meant to say he didn't get up close with Pain. He was basically like a shoulder canon Jiraiya had. He didn't fight Pain on his own, or he was in any situation where a frog Kata would be usable.



> This explanation can make sense, but it doesn't have to be the case. Nothing in the manga states this is true.


Like I said, it is common sense.

When Naruto displayed all these new stuff, no one went "omg what an asspull." Because everyone was able to rationalize it by saying that Naruto's SM was better because he was a perfect sage, thus he had better showing.



> So when DBIV comes along and says Jiraiya has those things, well that explanation becomes debunked. Otherwise were ignoring a canonical source for a reason that the manga does not demand has to be true.




First of all, Naruto can balance Nature energy better than Jiraiya, this is a canon fact.
Kawazu Kumite is basically using nature energy to sense incoming threats and extending your range. Naruto, a sage who has better grasp and control over Nature energy is bound to be more skilled in something that directly relates to Nature energy than Jiraiya.
This is no brainer. Doesn't need any further elaboration.




> The DB is not vague at all. It literally says the mechanics of Kawazu Kumite depends on being able to use SM sensing and Ghost punches. So Jiraiya being listed as a user demands that he's able to utilize these abilities at least up to the standards that Kawazu Kumite demands to work.


Which contradicts Jiraiya's display.

If SM Jiraiya hadn't fought anyone in the manga, then yes we'd assume he'd be able to use Kawazu Kumite to some extend(but still it'd be inferior to Naruto considering he isn't as good as Naruto @ utilizing Nature energy) but thats not the case. He fought and he didn't use it in situations where it was perfectly applicable. 



> The manga doesn't tell use Jiraiya doesn't have Kawazu Kumite or can't sense/use ghost punches. You personally have an issue with it, because you think he should have used it against Pain. That's not the manga telling us anything, other than the characters aren't fighting the way we think they should.


Nah. If I was saying that "Jiraiya should have used X strategy" then yes what you said would be right.
But Kawazu Kumite is not a strategy, it is an aspect of SM that is available from the get go. There is no way to justify Jiraiya not using it. Like someone coming behind his back, and he is completely unaware of it, twice. That is literally saying that Jiraiya doesn't have threat sensing Naruto has. No ifs and buts there.



> I think the characters could fight better in almost every battle in the series by using Jutsu they did not or using them better; that doesn't mean i'm taking the Jutsu away from these characters because of that or that the manga is contradicting the DB which blatantly says they have those abilities.



Databook is contradicting the manga, in that case we''ll dismiss the databook, not the manga. I think that is the most sensible thing to do.

What makes more sense ? Granting Jiraiya imaginary feats ? Or evaluating him based on his display, aka his on panel feats ? 

I think 99% of the people would go with the latter.



Senjuclan said:


> 1. Since you only go with manga statements, show me where the manga states the range of ghost punches


It doesn't say anything about range of the ghost punches, but we've seen its range when Naruto used it against ghost realm. So far, that is our upper limit.
But if you have evidence contradicting my statement, feel free to provide it, I'll be here waiting.



> 2. kakashi was caught off guard and yet survived. You see? Plot dictates everything



What are you talking about ? 

Kakashi wasn't caught off guard, he was using a bunshin and Deva pulled the bunshin in. In other words, Nagato was caught offguard and almost lost Asura because of that.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Nov 18, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Edo Itachi's feats with KCM Naruto, Bee, and Nagato-SM Kabuto put Itachi above SM Jiraiya in almost all cases.
> 
> *Trust me I am not an Itachi fan, so when I say Itachi beats Jiraiya in Edo form everytime, that means he does,
> *
> Now for living Itachi vs SM Jiraiya is where I think Jiraiya would beat Itachi



that is the greatest argument ever hahaha

But seriously why even bring edo's into this? Long story short SM Jiraiya > Sick/Healthy/Whatever living Itachi

Why? because he has far more jutsu capable of killing itachi then the other way around.


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## Van Konzen (Nov 19, 2014)

Obviously he beats Itachi..


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## Bonly (Nov 19, 2014)

Van Konzen said:


> Obviously he beats Itachi..



Stop wanking Itachi, Base Jiraiya can beat Itachi, were talking about SM Jiraiya so up that bar of people


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## JuicyG (Nov 19, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> that is the greatest argument ever hahaha
> 
> But seriously why even bring edo's into this? Long story short SM Jiraiya > Sick/Healthy/Whatever living Itachi
> 
> Why? because he has far more jutsu capable of killing itachi then the other way around.




Never said it was a great argument. My point was to show the amount of my unbiased for Itachi, yet still realize Edo Itachi beats Jiraiya. His feats while in Edo are more than what Jiraiya is capable of replicating even in SM.

I brought Edo Itachi in this because were are discussing who can SM Jiraiya beat ? I think he can beat living Itachi at extreme-extreme-high difficulty, and that is where he tops off because its pretty much a 50/50. Itachi's "one-shot" MS techs force this to be so.


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## Blaze Release (Nov 20, 2014)

To answer the question i would say Mu.

As for the thread discussion it matters not, whether Jiraiya has it or not. The term perfect sage and imperfect sage isn't just about appearance (natural energy balance) but also mastery of senjutsu. I also believed before the DB that jiraiya could use it as well have sage sensing however it is ridiculous to say that his skill with these abilities would match that of naruto's a perfect sage. But surely there will be some form of power/skill gap that will distinguish what it means to be a perfect sage and imperfect sage. This is also the reasons why i do not see Minato as a perfect sage regardless of his appearance 

At best jiraiya may be able to blow an opponent a few meters away but not knock them out like what Naruto did. likewise his sage sensing, may be limited to range but also clarity. These may be reason why he didn't bother with such unrefined abilities and instead tried other things. Or perhaps he didn't get to learn or know off many abilities that came with sm as he frowned on it because of the transformation he undertakes. Or as others have said, these abilities came with balancing natural energy perfectly, in other words perfect sage.


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## JuicyG (Nov 20, 2014)

Jiraiya at his best, and considering DB's words...

Itachi
3rd Raikage
MS Sasuke


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## Turrin (Nov 20, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> When, tell me when and why he would use them. We know why Jiraiya would use them *if he had them*. However you seem to thin Fukasaku didn't use it when he could have and when he should have; inform me.


Against Pain in the Jiraiya fight, just like you keep advocating Jiraiya should have used them then.



> e wasn't fighting Pain, he was supporting Naruto. Who else would be throwing Gamabunta around and proving general back up such as getting Naruto's clone into the field?
> 
> Before you say Shima, even with Jiraiya, Fukasaku took command.


Turrin talks about Jiriaya fight, Munboy talks about Naruto fight 



> What contradiction? I say Naruto and Jiraiya both are frog kata users. However the latter obviously isn't on the level to use ghost punches. Hence he didn't in a situation that would have been changed if he had them.


That Jiraiya not using Kawazu Kumite in the Pain fight means he doesn't have Ghost punches, but Fukasaku not using Kawazu Kumite in the Pain fight does not; pretty obvious contradiction.



> You see Jiraiya's name, ignore the manga and fix on the databook. That is a bona fide contradictory argument: you're openly disregarding canon.


Manga doesn't discount the DB. You fixate on one issue that can have many different explanations than the one your shipping and choose to ignore a canonical source to make your specific interpretation fit.



> Tell me when and why Fukasaku would use them. We know the same problem Jiraiya ran away from was solved when Naruto used simple ghost punches.


Naruto defeat 1 Path w/ Kawazu Kumite. Jiraiya was up against 3. Unless 1 = 3, that is not a problem solver.



> Overall: the comment on sage abilities was already made prior the overall comment.


There is no overall comment.


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## Turrin (Nov 21, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think that still wouldn't be effective as a tactic. I also think the main reason why ma & pa are there is because they have to draw in nature energy, so if something happens to them, Jiraiya is fucked. The most logical thing for them to do is to stay away from harms way as much as possible. Pa trying to take the front likes with Kawazu Kumite would work against that.
> 
> I meant to say he didn't get up close with Pain. He was basically like a shoulder canon Jiraiya had. He didn't fight Pain on his own, or he was in any situation where a frog Kata would be usable.


So what your saying is taking Pain on in CQC was too risky. However because Jiraiya could throw a punch a few more inches further than Fukasaku, it wasn't risky at all for him to do so. Doesn't make sense to me.



> When Naruto displayed all these new stuff, no one went "omg what an asspull." Because everyone was able to rationalize it by saying that Naruto's SM was better because he was a perfect sage, thus he had better showing.


Yes everyone rationalized it and speculated on rational cause. Nothing wrong with that, it just turns out that they were a bit hasy. What is wrong is continuing to advocate such a stance when a canonical source says that stance is wrong.



> First of all, Naruto can balance Nature energy better than Jiraiya, this is a canon fact.
> Kawazu Kumite is basically using nature energy to sense incoming threats and extending your range. Naruto, a sage who has better grasp and control over Nature energy is bound to be more skilled in something that directly relates to Nature energy than Jiraiya.
> This is no brainer. Doesn't need any further elaboration.


I don't care whether Naruto is more skilled or not. The DB outlines specific abilities necessary to perform Kawazu Kumite. Jiraiya being a Kawazu Kumite users therefore must have those abilities. Naruto's SM sensing range might be greater than Jiraiya's and maybe his Ghost punche extends a bit further, but that doesn't change the fact that Jiraiya can sense the enemies moves, predict them, and extend his reach w/ natural energy, as all of those things are demanded off someone who is a Kawazu Kumite user.



> If SM Jiraiya hadn't fought anyone in the manga, then yes we'd assume he'd be able to use Kawazu Kumite to some extend(but still it'd be inferior to Naruto considering he isn't as good as Naruto @ utilizing Nature energy) but thats not the case. He fought and he didn't use it in situations where it was perfectly applicable.


There are tons of times when characters fight in the manga, I think using certain jutsu they have would be perfectly acceptable, but they don't. Why didn't Naruto summon Ma/Pa at any point post Pain-Arc, we know he can and I think they would have been useful in a variety of different situations, but he didn't use them. Now am I going to start advocating that Naruto can't summon Ma/Pa, contradicting Kishimoto's own words that he can? No i'm going to look for other rational explanations or look at reasons in the plot as to why Kishimoto didn't want him to summon Ma/Pa.



> Nah. If I was saying that "Jiraiya should have used X strategy" then yes what you said would be right.
> But Kawazu Kumite is not a strategy, it is an aspect of SM that is available from the get go. There is no way to justify Jiraiya not using it. Like someone coming behind his back, and he is completely unaware of it, twice. That is literally saying that Jiraiya doesn't have threat sensing Naruto has. No ifs and buts there.


The first time we don't know if Jiraiya was unaware of it. The second time he got caught off guard by the paths being revived; Naruto, not to mention Ma/Pa who were both present (in the instance your citing) and all w're equally caught off guard by the revival. Again am I going argue Naruto, Fukasaku, and Shima don't have sensing despite a canonical source demonstrating that they do, or should I instead look for other plausible explanations. The answer should be obvious.



> Databook is contradicting the manga, in that case we''ll dismiss the databook, not the manga. I think that is the most sensible thing to do.


The DB contradicting the manga would be if someone states Jiraiya did not have SM sensing and Ghost punches. Or we have an example of Jiraiya attempting to use 1 or both of those skills and failing. Those are the things that would qualify as the manga contradicting the DB. In this case it isn't a manga versus DB issue at all. Rather it's a reader's interpretation of the manga versus the DB. And it's not like your interpretations was a bad one initially, but once the DB says different, your interpretation becomes outranked.



> What makes more sense ?


Granting Jiraiya an ability he's stated to have in a canonical source is always going to make more sense than ignoring that.  



> Granting Jiraiya imaginary feats ? Or evaluating him based on his display, aka his on panel feats ?


Let's be honest here Grimmjow, If I translated some text out of the DB tomorrow that said Itachi has P-Susano'o, you'd be all over that shit in the BD/Library despite Itachi never showing any on panel feats even remotely in the same league as P-Susano'o, and it making far less sense that Itachi would have P-Susano'o, than it does that Fukasaku during Jiraiya's long life taught him a skill that is C-Rank in acquisition difficult for Sages.



> I think 99% of the people would go with the latter.


If this is true, which I personally doubt, than 99% people would still be wrong. A majority doesn't outweigh the words of a canonical source; ever.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 21, 2014)

I can see Sage Jiraiya beating Itachi 50/50 like some people say, but I don't think Jiraiya will get into Sage Mode 50% of the time against Itachi if Itachi truly intends to kill Jiraiya. 

Itachi's jutsu and style are too fast-acting. Same goes for Jiraiya against Tobirama. Sage Jiraiya could be a big problem, but base Jiraiya would be overwhelmed before it could happen.​


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## JuicyG (Nov 21, 2014)

^^^^^

I agree. But the thread is about Jiraiya starting in SM. On that note I think he and living Itachi would go somewhere around 50/50. Edo Itachi wins 10/10 times and 3T vs Base Jman is pretty much 50/50 as well.


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## Turrin (Nov 21, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> ^^^^^
> 
> I agree. But the thread is about Jiraiya starting in SM. On that note I think he and living Itachi would go somewhere around 50/50. Edo Itachi wins 10/10 times and 3T vs Base Jman is pretty much 50/50 as well.


Edo doesn't really change much to be perfectly honest. He can fight a bit longer due to Edo-Regen and he has to be dealt with via Binding and Fuuinjutsu. Against Jiraiya both of those things are kind of null issues though as Jiraiya has Fuuinjutsu/Binding Jutsu and his stamina well above Itachi's even in Base, let alone Sennin Modo. That's not to say Edo-perks are worthless, but I don't think they'd have much impact against Jiraiya specifically. Others that lack Fuuinjutsu/binding jutsu or up against another person who has to be conservative with their stamina like Kakashi, there impact would be a-lot more defensible.


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## Icegaze (Nov 22, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> His arms are big enough to spar with Naruto and strong enough to lift Bunta. The question is why did he not use ghost punch to defeat Deva?



Wrong question !!
Question is why didn't jiraiya use it 
 
No one is doubting pa who taught naruto the technique has it 
That's just dumb 

frog features precisely means he can use less sage jutsu as he kept on going you would notice his frog features became more apparent why on earth would someone that low in the sage food chain have ghost punches ?


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## Itachі (Nov 22, 2014)

With full knowledge, I'd say that SM Jiraiya has a large chance at defeating MS Sasuke. I still don't think he can take Itachi, Itachi takes out Ma and Pa with Genjutsu and without Ma and Pa Jiraiya's left without much else.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Nov 22, 2014)

Itachі said:


> With full knowledge, I'd say that SM Jiraiya has a large chance at defeating MS Sasuke. I still don't think he can take Itachi, Itachi takes out Ma and Pa with Genjutsu and without Ma and Pa Jiraiya's left without much else.



You still going on about Itachi one shotting SM Jiraiya? Itachi can't genjutsu 3 people and or beings at the same time. Its a 1 on 1 deal bro.


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## JuicyG (Nov 22, 2014)

yeah its pretty much 3 v 1 making genjutsu's easier to break.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 23, 2014)

Which is why kakashi had to bushin feint itachi and avoid eye contact despite having chiyo, sakura, and naruto with him 


And how is ma and pa saving him from tsukiyomi?


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## JuicyG (Nov 23, 2014)

Well here we go..

By feats, Tsukuyomi only put down part 1 Kakashi. Hype however has it killing someone like Jiraiya, so whether you want to go by feats or hype, I suppose that's up to the debater. 

Ma+Pa fusion with Jiraiya links their chakra's together. So if Jiraiya is caught in a genjutsu, ma+pa could shake him out of it with disruptions in chakra flow. 
Same goes with the toads being caught. Itachi is not going to be putting all 3 of the into a genjutsu, especially a Tsukuyomi cast since it would leave Itachi with nothing left to fight Jiraiya. If Jiraiya can force Itachi into susano, dodge or neglect an amaterasu, Itachi is more or less gassed at this point. 
FYI, I'm speaking about Sick, Living Itachi that we've seen in the manga during part 1 of the series.  Senpō: Ryōsei no Jutsu should perfectly counter almost all genjutsu's from Itachi, especially the normal 3T versions. Since they are all linked together, if one of them is caught in a genjutsu, the others can Kai them out.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 23, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Well here we go..
> 
> By feats, Tsukuyomi only put down part 1 Kakashi. Hype however has it killing someone like Jiraiya, so whether you want to go by feats or hype, I suppose that's up to the debater.
> 
> ...



  


proof that a sharingonless jiraiya would have any better resitance to tsukiyomi then 3t kakashi?
especially when we consider the fact kakashi had to close his other eye.



partner method does not work on tsukiyomi as stated by canon.






what speed feats does jiraiya have to suggest that he can dodge amatarasu?




 itachi will be out of gas from one tsukiyomi?






atleast be upfront about your bias at this point im respecting liebe alot more then you as atleast he doesn't attempt to hide it.


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## Patrick (Nov 23, 2014)

You got to love the battledome. Someone mentions Jiraiya and the thread devolves into Jiraiya vs Itachi right away.


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## JuicyG (Nov 24, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> proof that a sharingonless jiraiya would have any better resitance to tsukiyomi then 3t kakashi?
> especially when we consider the fact kakashi had to close his other eye.



Proof that Tsukuyomi is stronger than what it has shown ? 




Bkprince33 said:


> partner method does not work on tsukiyomi as stated by canon.



I was specifically talking about genjutsu in general, not just Tsukuyomi in the first place. But with full intel, Tsukuyomi is no more likely to land first than Yomi Numa anyways. 







Bkprince33 said:


> what speed feats does jiraiya have to suggest that he can dodge amatarasu?



Who says he has to dodge it ? Your thinking process is extremely linear 





Bkprince33 said:


> itachi will be out of gas from one tsukiyomi?



 you must think your "king" is a chakra monster







Bkprince33 said:


> atleast be upfront about your bias at this point im respecting liebe alot more then you as atleast he doesn't attempt to hide it.



Your no better than anyone else, not sure why your putting up a front acting like your some kind of hot shot guy around here either... get off your high horse BK Princess


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 24, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Proof that Tsukuyomi is stronger than what it has shown ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tsukiyomi doesn't have to be any stronger to kill someone with less resistance to the Justu then 3t kakashi  





Ummm that depends on the scenario.






You just said he can dodge it and I asked for proof and now you back pedal? 






No I just think the king has used more then one tsukiyomi on multiple occasions 

It's like you read a complete diff manga.







Umm I never said I was better then anyone else and I'm only on a pedestal if you put me on one


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