# Gengetsu/Mu vs Akatsuki Gauntlet



## Matty (Jul 23, 2015)

Area: Sasuke vs Deidara
Knowledge: None
Restrictions: None
Mindset: IC
Distance: 50 Meters

Gengetsu and Mu Seperately face each akatsuki member. They are all separate battles so each fight they are healthy.

*Akatsuki Contenders*

Hidan
Konan
Kakuzu
Deidara
Kisame
Sasori
Itachi
Nagato
Obito

I see it like this

*Gengetsu*

Hidan-*Win*
Konan-*Win*
Kakuzu-*Lose*
Deidara- *Lose*
Kisame- *50/50*
Sasori- *Lose*
Itachi/Nagato/Obito-*Lose*


I believe Mu wins against all but top 3 and is 50/50 with Deidara, Kisame, Sasori


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## Icegaze (Jul 23, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Area: Sasuke vs Deidara
> Knowledge: None
> Restrictions: None
> Mindset: IC
> ...



Hidan- Both stomp
Konan- both win
Kakuzu- both win
Deidara- deidara beats gengetsu but looses to Muu
Kisame- Muu beats kisame but gengetsu looses
Sasori- both beat sasori
Itachi- both loose
Nagato- both get murdered
Obito-  both actually have a good shot at winning not a bad match at all 


With no knowledge obito wont know to look for gengetsu though he would easily kamui GG jouki boy

obito also may not find Muu so its quite the match up. esp if Muu baits obito and splits. obito thinks he has won only to get himself killed.


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## ARGUS (Jul 23, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> *Akatsuki Contenders*
> 
> Hidan
> Konan


both of them shit


> Kakuzu


Gengetsu wins high diff, Muu wins low diff


> Deidara


Deidara beats Gengetsu, but gets shat on by Muu, 


> Kisame


Kisame beats Gengetsu high diff but loses to Muu 


> Sasori


They both beat him mid diff 


> Itachi
> Nagato
> Obito


Gengtsu gets shat on by all of them, 
Muu gives Obito and Itachi a good fight but still loses, and he gets wrecked by nagato


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## Icegaze (Jul 23, 2015)

gengetsu is simply a good type match for Muu most likely 

however skill set wise Muu is significantly more of a threat to anyone than gengetsu is 

@arugs why does itachi shit on gengetsu?

i dont think we got much to go on to say he easily see through the gengetsu and if he does

why would he look for gengetsu and how does he find gengetsu?


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## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

Hidan - Both easily win

Konan - Don't have enough info to rate Konan, but likely Gengetsu wins for sure due to Oil > Paper Techs

Kakuzu - Both win

Deidara - Both win

Kisame - Depends if Samehada can absorb chakra from Jouki boi and Jinton

Sasori - Likely both win albeit with a high degree of difficulty

Itachi - Mu could get Itachi with Jinton, but Itachi wins more often than not. Gengetsu likely wins due to Clam Genjutsu

Nagato - Beats both

Obito - if this is MS-Obito, he beats Mu, but could loose to Gengetsu due to the clam genjutsu.


Gengetsu >= Mu


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## Icegaze (Jul 23, 2015)

I wonder how deidara beats gengetsu though

like I think he does. but I am not sure how

if that makes sense

the clam genjutsu will mess deidara up. 

though I think he will opt for C3 to level the field 

Jouki boy coming out isn't much of an issue for deidara really. 

so maybe that's why he wins


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## ARGUS (Jul 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> gengetsu is simply a good type match for Muu most likely
> 
> however skill set wise Muu is significantly more of a threat to anyone than gengetsu is
> 
> ...



Im of the opinion that the sharingan can see through the genjutsu, 
with thatt being said, itachi locates the clam and eradicates it with susanoo, 
mizukage gets set ablaze by amaterasu much worse than a normal person does since his liiquifying actually involves oil, making him a flaming fire ball. 

joki boy iis useless to susanoo and totsuka one shots gengetsu no matter how you loook at it


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## The Undying (Jul 23, 2015)

Both win without much of a challenge until they get to Deidara, whose elemental advantage and explosives allow him to counter Gengetsu (even though Gengetsu is easily superior to Deidara overall). Deidara's possible knowledge on one of the Kages of his own village might allow him to last for a while against Muu, but Muu wins regardless.

Against Kisame, the match could go either way for both contestants.

Sasori loses against both after a lengthy fight.

Itachi, Nagato and Obito defeat both of them. As a testament to their strength and abilities, though, they're entirely capable of giving Itachi and Obito some difficulty.

Muu: 5
Gengetsu: 4


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## Rocky (Jul 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Gengetsu >= Mu



Your opinions are so forced. The clam beating Obito & Itachi is asinine.


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## Icegaze (Jul 23, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Im of the opinion that the sharingan can see through the genjutsu,
> with thatt being said, itachi locates the clam and eradicates it with susanoo,
> mizukage gets set ablaze by amaterasu much worse than a normal person does since his liiquifying actually involves oil, making him a flaming fire ball.
> 
> joki boy iis useless to susanoo and totsuka one shots gengetsu no matter how you loook at it



then yes goign with ur opinion 
itachi would win 

otherwise he may not 

jouki boy is useless to susanoo 

poor gengetsu


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## Uzzui (Jul 23, 2015)

*Mu
*
*Hidan - * Negs
*Konan -* Stomps
*Kakuzu -* Beats
*Deidara -* Wins 
*Kisame -* Just manages to get the win
*Sasori -* Beats
*Itachi -* Loses 
*Nagato -* Gets raped
*Obito -* Depends on which one but mostly likely gets negged

*Gengetsu*

*Hidan - * Negs 
*Konan -* Negs
*Kakuzu -* Wins with high difficulty 
*Deidara -* Loses 
*Kisame -* Loses
*Sasori -* Wins but has a hard time
*Itachi -* Gets stomped
*Nagato -* Gets raped
*Obito -* Loses


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## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Your opinions are so forced.


Forced by Manga and DB statements that implicate Gengetsu >= Mu, sure.



> The clam beating Obito & Itachi is asinine.


If they can't see through the Clam's Genjutsu how do they win?


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## Icegaze (Jul 23, 2015)

obito not being able to see through genjutsu doesnt stop him from using izanagi to murder gengetsu when gengetsu thinks he has won

as for itachi, tbh not sure if he cant see through the mist he really should die


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## Rocky (Jul 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Forced by Manga and DB statements that implicate Gengetsu >= Mu, sure.



The Shinobi Alliance decided to target Mū and Gengetsu seemed a bit butthurt about that. "Raggedy old mummy?" And when Gaara says that you shouldn't judge a book by its cover, does he say that Gengetsu is strong, or strong_*er*_ than Mū?



Turrin said:


> If they can't see through the Clam's Genjutsu how do they win?



Itachi probably wins with Sharingan Genjutsu before the clam even makes an appearance. If it is summoned (and for whatever reason he can't see through it), then he hunts it down while using Susano'o to protect himself from being blindsided. 

Obito wins either beating Gengetsu before he summons, outlasting the Clam/Gengetsu, or nuking the battlefield with Bakufū Ranbu.


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## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The Shinobi Alliance decided to target Mū and Gengetsu seemed a bit butthurt about that. "Raggedy old mummy?" And when Gaara says that you shouldn't judge a book by its cover, does he say that Gengetsu is strong, or strong_*er*_ than Mū?
> .


The implication of that discussion is that Gengetsu >= Mu. There's literally no point to have it in the manga otherwise.



> achi probably wins with Sharingan Genjutsu before the clam even makes an appearance.


How?



> If it is summoned (and for whatever reason he can't see through it), then he hunts it down while using Susano'o to protect himself from being blindsided.


How? 



> Obito wins either beating Gengetsu before he summons.


He's not beating Gengetsu before he can summon the clam.



> , outlasting the Clam/Gengetsu,


How?



> or nuking the battlefield with Bakufū Ranbu


Ranbu can't cover the entire battlefield, and using a Katon Ninjutsu against a Mizukage who specializes in Suiton Ninjutsu is dubious.


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## Rocky (Jul 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> The implication of that discussion is that Gengetsu >= Mu. There's literally no point to have it in the manga otherwise.



I thought the point of the discussion was that Genjutsu shouldn't be seen as a lesser threat than the Tsuchikage.

That's why Gaara said "strong" instead of "stronger." "We shouldn't have gone after him when you're just as strong."

That said, I don't have a problem with Gengetsu ≥ Mū. I just don't think it's reflected in this specific list of opponents. They're more equal than anything, which is why they killed each other. 



Turrin said:


> How?



Sharingan Genjutsu.

See the Orochimaru & Deidara fights.



Turrin said:


> How?



Crows. Clones. 360 spinning with Susano'o's extending blade. 

He'll hit the things eventually. It can't move.



Turrin said:


> He's not beating Gengetsu before he can summon the clam.



I believe the term is "Kamui GG."



Turrin said:


> How?



Hashirama DNA Stamina combined with Kamui defense. 



Turrin said:


> Ranbu can't cover the entire battlefield, and using a Katon Ninjutsu against a Mizukage who specializes in Suiton Ninjutsu is dubious.



It covers a gigantic portion of it, so the Clam is done for the moment Obito decides to use it. Even if he_ somehow_ misses, it isn't like he's limited to one use. 

Gengetsu hasn't demonstrated anything even remotely on par with  Bakufū Ranbu.


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## Icegaze (Jul 23, 2015)

the clam does move though

also the mirage will make itachi see false images which he will target

itachi if he cant see through it, through lol sharingan will simply die


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## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Sharingan Genjutsu.
> 
> See the Orochimaru & Deidara fights.


So let's say he does what he did to Orochimaru. Paralyzes him and than cuts off his hand before he can break free of the illusion. Due to Suika no Jutsu, Mizukage would tank that w/o issue.



> Crows. Clones. 360 spinning with Susano'o's extending blade.
> 
> He'll hit the things eventually. It can't move.


So he's basically going to be attacking at random. Hundreds of alliance members tried and failed doing just that. 



> I believe the term is "Kamui GG."


How does he Kamui GG him?



> Hashirama DNA Stamina combined with Kamui defense.


He needs to defend himself against Gengetsu's attacks. He can only be intangible and immortal from Kamui and Izanagi for a little bit longer than 15min, as the Konan fight showed. Gengetsu shouldn't have a problem using Water Pistol and Clam Genjutsu for well over 15min, considering how long he did just that against the Alliance. 



> It covers a gigantic portion of it, so the Clam is done for the moment Obito decides to use it.


It doesn't cover the whole battlefield yet the Clam is certainly done for the moment he uses it? That doesn't make sense.



> Even if he somehow misses, it isn't like he's limited to one use.


And Gengetsu and the Clam can also move around to avoid it. Or to say it another way Obito hitting the Clam would be dependent on luck.



> Gengetsu hasn't demonstrated anything even remotely on par with Bakufū Ranbu.


Jouki Boi is a Suiton that's higher level than Bakufū Ranbu


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## Sadgoob (Jul 23, 2015)

*Gengetsu*

Hidan - W
Konan - W
Kakuzu - L      
Deidara - L
Kisame - L
Sasori - W
Itachi - L
Nagato - L
Obito - L

*Mu*

Hidan - W
Konan - W
Kakuzu - W
Deidara - W
Kisame - ?
Sasori - W
Itachi - L
Nagato - L
Obito - L


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## Rocky (Jul 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> So let's say he does what he did to Orochimaru. Paralyzes him and than cuts off his hand before he can break free of the illusion. Due to Suika no Jutsu, Mizukage would tank that w/o issue.



Maybe. Or maybe Gengetsu can;t use Sukia jutsu like Orochimaru failing to regenerate the hand. Or maybe Gengetsu gets paralysed like C was versus Sasuke.



Turrin said:


> So he's basically going to be attacking at random. Hundreds of alliance members tried and failed doing just that.



None of the alliance members have spinning Susano'o. 



Turrin said:


> How does he Kamui GG him?



Warp behind him and Kamui him while he's going "wtf just happened."



Turrin said:


> He needs to defend himself against Gengetsu's attacks. He can only be intangible and immortal from Kamui and Izanagi for a little bit longer than 15min, as the Konan fight showed.



He can only be continuously intangible for five minutes. Gengetsu doesn't have a continuous attack like 600 billion tags exploding continuously for ten minutes. 



Turrin said:


> It doesn't cover the whole battlefield yet the Clam is certainly done for the moment he uses it? That doesn't make sense.



Shoot the fire in the general vicinity of where the clam was summoned.



Turrin said:


> And Gengetsu and the Clam can also move around to avoid it. Or to say it another way Obito hitting the Clam would be dependent on luck.



When did the clam ever move? 

Furthermore, when did Gengetsu ever demonstrate high speed to suggest he can avoid something of Ranbu's AoE?



Turrin said:


> Jouki Boi is a Suiton that's higher level than Bakufū Ranbu



Says who?


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 23, 2015)

Gengetsu isn't beating Obito without knowledge. He charges at him with water pistol and gets grab warped at start battle, the clam doesn't even get summoned. 

Stop reaching, Turrin.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 23, 2015)

IMO dojutsu would counter the clam and invisibility.

Hiding from sensors is something many ninja have done.

Being undetectable right in front of doujutsu is trickier.


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## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Maybe. Or maybe Gengetsu can;t use Sukia jutsu like Orochimaru failing to regenerate the hand.


Orochimaru was going to use a Ninjutsu Kai, hence why Itachi stopped his seals. So if you asking me to believe Kagsui, prevents the usage of Ninjutsu, I'm not going to agree with that. 

But even if he lost a hand for good, he only needs one hand for Kuchiyose.




> None of the alliance members have spinning Susano'o.


LoL, I guess you got me there, few have the ability to use prima ballerina Susano'o  

They do however have hundreds of members who can all attack different areas of the battlefield to try and find the clam. So by random chance they are more likely to find the Clam, no matter how good Susano'o pirouette is.



> Warp behind him and Kamui him while he's going "wtf just happened."


How come no one Obito faced was defeated that way before they could use a single Jutsu, let alone one as fast as Kuchiyose?



> He can only be continuously intangible for five minutes. Gengetsu doesn't have a continuous attack like 600 billion tags exploding continuously for ten minutes.


The Mirages can continuously attack Obito.



> Shoot the fire in the general vicinity of where the clam was summoned.


Assumes Gengetsu hasn't moved by then.



> When did the clam ever move?


If the Clam couldn't move than why was the clam's location ever in dispute by the alliance? They saw where it was summoned. Fuck why would anyone have an issue with the Clam Mirage?



> Furthermore, when did Gengetsu ever demonstrate high speed to suggest he can avoid something of Ranbu's AoE?


Ranbu's AOE spreds out at a distance, but closer up it's narrow:
2



> Says who?


B-Rank Katon is higher level than Jouki Boi. Really dude?


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## Rocky (Jul 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> They do however have hundreds of members who can all attack different areas of the battlefield to try and find the clam. So by random chance they are more likely to find the Clam, no matter how good Susano'o pirouette is.



They never tried to do that. They kept attacking mirages, much to Gengetsu's dismay. 

The alliance also had no defense against Gengetsu's own offense either, unlike Itachi.



Turrin said:


> How come no one Obito faced was defeated that way before they could use a single Jutsu, let alone one as fast as Kuchiyose?



Minato almost was, but he had Hiraishin. Gengetsu doesn't have Minato's speed.

Everyone else Obito fought had some sort of prior knowledge on Kamui.



Turrin said:


> The Mirages can continuously attack Obito.



Show me mirages continuously attacking on the level of Konan's billions of explosive tags. 



> =Turrin;54039302If the Clam couldn't move than why was the clam's location ever in dispute by the alliance? They saw where it was summoned. Fuck why would anyone have an issue with the Clam Mirage?



Good question. Dunno. But it has no legs, and didn't even _try_ to dodge Onoki's punch, and we've never seen it move.

So I don't think it can move. 



Turrin said:


> Ranbu's AOE spreds out at a distance, but closer up it's narrow:
> Link removed



That's why he jumps (or warps) up or back in order to get the full effect. 



Turrin said:


> B-Rank Katon is higher level than Jouki Boi. Really dude?



Rank ≠ power.

A almost killed Minato with a D-rank jutsu, Kakashi needed two Raikiri to cancel out Gian, etc.


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## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> IMO dojutsu would counter the clam and invisibility.
> 
> Hiding from sensors is something many ninja have done.
> 
> Being undetectable right in front of doujutsu is trickier.



I thought so too when the DB was initially released, because of how Obito saw through Taiseki's light bending trick, but I re-read that chapter recently, and Obito's sharingan didn't see through Taiseki's invis, rather he saw Taiseki's chakra, and defended based on that. Considering the Clam Mirage uses the same principal as Taiseki's technique, the Sharingan would also see chakra, but the problem is unlike Taiseki's technique or Mu's invisibility where the chakra is just centered around the individual, the chakra is within the steam released by the Clam and is creating mirages all over the battlefield. So they would see the chakra of tons of other Gengetsu's and Clams, wherever there is a mirage, similar to how the  Aburame's bug jamming technique was used to counter Sharingan:
Link removed


And this is also why sensing didn't work, because the sensors were sensing tons of chakra sources all over the battlefield. Again like the bug jamming technique.

At least that's my interpretation of it based on the manga and data-book.



DaVizWiz said:


> Gengetsu isn't beating Obito without knowledge. He charges at him with water pistol and gets grab warped at start battle, the clam doesn't even get summoned.
> 
> Stop reaching, Turrin.


If it's no knowledge, Obito most likely fucks around at the start. Gengetsu's second move in cannon was to summon the Clam and use it's Genjutsu, when up against Fodder no less, it's his goto. So yes I think it's likely in both a knowledge and no knowledge scenario Gengetsu gets out the Clam Mirage, before Obito warps him. 

Though I never said Obito would certainly loose to Gengetsu, nor do I think Gengetsu is stronger than Obito. I just said Gengetsu can win, because I believe the Clam Mirage is a good counter to Obito's move set.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 23, 2015)

*Muu/Gengetsu*



> Hidan


Muu can use jinton and eviscerate Hidan, Hidan can't do anything to Gengetsu's body. He is actually the worst opponent for him due to his hydrafication technique.





> Konan


Jinton GG / Clam GG





> Kakuzu


Muu takes him out with Jinton, none of those creatures can put up a proper defense except for perhaps the fire/wind combo might be able to delay the technique long enough for him to dodge for a moment. Gengetsu clam rapes.





> Deidara


C4 has the potential to kill them both and Muu would likely have the ability to distinguish the kind of fighter Deidara is (being from the same village and all). I don't see Gengetsu finding a way around C2/C3/C4. His body would likely give him some form durability but even that has it's limits.





> Kisame


Both Gengetsu and Muu solo with fair amount of ease. Jinton is a Kekkai Mora, it's not something you would be able to defend against with a single element, perhaps a combo of two but Kisame hasn't shown that. Jinton is also composed of a fire-based element, I don't know if it would hold up that well. 





> Sasori


Gets solo'd by both of them with little or no effort on Muu/Gengetsu's part. Sasori's poisons are useless and his iron sand can be slowed down via oil and water-based techniques. All in all, shitty match up for him. He gets curbed really hard, rather quickly. 





> Itachi
> Nagato
> Obito


They solo the fuck out of both of them. Muu is the only one that Itachi could potentially lose to and that's due to Jinton. Both Nagato and Obito have defenses that allow them survive Jinton. Itachi does as well, but him resorting to Susano'o that early is something I have a hard time believing. 

Gengetsu gets beat by all 3, without question. Obito shits on him, Nagato shits on him and Itachi shits on him. Dojutsu users are going to be able to detect the real clam.


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## Icegaze (Jul 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> the clam does move though
> 
> also the mirage will make itachi see false images which he will target
> 
> itachi if he cant see through it, through lol sharingan will simply die





Strategoob said:


> *Gengetsu*
> 
> Hidan - W
> Konan - W
> ...



why the ? in kisame vs Muu?

Muu should murder kisame

I also don't see why sharingan auto sees through gengetsu genjutsu when such was never implied and when sharingan on panel has failed to even see through hidden mist

I gotta agree with Turrin on clam genjutsu mechanics 

I would pretty much counter sharingan perceptive abilities. especially if bug jamming technique has already shown the ability to do that


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## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> They never tried to do that. They kept attacking mirages, much to Gengetsu's dismay.


Your right, they never did just attack at random, they actually tried to figure out the Clam's location. So they did one better than what your suggesting.



> The alliance also had no defense against Gengetsu's own offense either, unlike Itachi.


I fail to see how this matters, it's not like the alliance was wiped out before they found the Clam. 



> Minato almost was, but he had Hiraishin.


Do I really need to count out for you the many times Minato used Jutsu before then.



> Everyone else Obito fought had some sort of prior knowledge on Kamui.


Team 7 and Team 8 didn't have knowledge of Kamui.



> Show me mirages continuously attacking on the level of Konan's billions of explosive tags.


Doesn't have to be on that level, but obviously the Mirage can be whatever the fuck Mizukage wants it to be. 



> Good question. Dunno. But it has no legs, and didn't even try to dodge Onoki's punch, and we've never seen it move.
> 
> So I don't think it can move.


Whether it moves. Or Gengetsu Moves it. I don't think the take away from the manga is suppose to be that Mirage can be countered like that.



> That's why he jumps (or warps) up or back in order to get the full effect.


Okay, but than it has to cross a large distance, giving Gengetsu time to avoid it. Assuming Obito is lucky enough to shoot it in the right direction.



> Rank ≠ power.
> 
> A almost killed Minato with a D-rank jutsu, Kakashi needed two Raikiri to cancel out Gian, etc.


I didn't say it did. I said it equals level, which it does. I.E. Gengetsu has shown higher mastery off the suiton element than B-Rank.


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## Icegaze (Jul 23, 2015)

@Strat lets assume sharingan doesn't see through it

explain how itachi wins the match from that point on 

as I really think a random extending totsuka sword is silly at best. 

especially when gengetsu could have mirages behind itachi at 20m while in truth he is at itachi 3 O'clock 100m away

considering how easily he was bullying gaara while standing on his clam which was no where close to gaara


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## Kai (Jul 23, 2015)

Sharingan sees through the clam's genjutsu like Sasuke saw through Oboro's battlefield genjutsu back in the Forest of Death.

Sharingan sees through visual-based illusions.


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## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

Kai said:


> Sharingan sees through the clam's genjutsu like Sasuke saw through Oboro's battlefield genjutsu back in the Forest of Death.


They are totally different techniques. Also Sasuke could not distinguish the real Oboro brothers from the illusionary ones, or the Oboro brother's attacks from the illusionary ones, from what I can recall. He was just able to tell a Genjutsu was being utilized.



> Sharingan sees through visual-based illusions.


Clearly it doesn't. See Tsukuyomi. Also the mirage is much different in mechanics from the normal Genjutsu, in that it's bending light with chakra, rather than manipulating someone's cranial nerve to make them hallucinate.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 23, 2015)

Didn't Sasuke break it with a base sharingan?


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## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Didn't Sasuke break it with a base sharingan?


Pretty sure that was Anime filler.


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## Icegaze (Jul 23, 2015)

genin sasuke couldn't break oboro genjutsu which to me is massively similar to clam genjutsu except horribly weaker

I don't really see how sharingan chakra vision doesn't get toyed with here. seeing the 100's of chakra sources which it will be picking up


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## Matty (Jul 23, 2015)

I am astounded by the Gengetsu/Mu wan that has been on the forums the past few days. People wank Jinton so much  yet he wasn't able to kill gengetsu with it and they battled multiple times. Mu isn't Onoki who is a beast, they are both overhyped tlike crazy. Itachi beats Gengetsu easily, Sasori's poison doesn't simply wash away it diffuses in the water which simply spreads it easier, it doesn't disappear. Iron sand isn't regular sand which means more than likely it isn't getting Mucky like Gaara's. He most likely isn't going to be affected by that genjutsu and if he is one World Order will find that clam easily and probably kill gengetsu. 

No way in hell does Obito lose to Gengetsu or Mu. It doesn't take long to realize you are in a genjutsu when none of your attack work. And fighting the Akatuski with no knowledge is equally dangerous

Gengetsu sees Kakuzu fighting an illusion tries to kill him, revealing his location without realizing Kakuzu is Pseudo-Immortal and proceeds to get massacred. Same with Sasori unless he's lucky enough to get his heart cannister on a moving target on the first try (IF he is even affected by this genjutsu which I don't believe) and he hasn't shown any feats besides Joki boi and the clam. The dude is not as powerful as everyone is hypping him up to be. If he wasn''t edo he would've been annihalated


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## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

Yeah just looked up that chapter, and Sasuke activates Sharingan, and than immediately attacks an illusion by mistake lol:
Link removed

And than Kabuto says they can't distinguish the illusion attacks from the real ones despite Sasuke's Sharingan:
Link removed


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Pretty sure that was Anime filler.



Nah, in his fight with Itachi he broke Tsukuyomi w/a base sharingan.

like a chew toy
like a chew toy
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed


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## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Itachi beats Gengetsu easily


People keep saying that but offer no compelling way for Itachi to win if he can't see through the Mirage.



> asori's poison doesn't simply wash away it diffuses in the water


I don't see why it matters as your not poisoning a man made of water.



> Iron sand isn't regular sand which means more than likely it isn't getting Mucky like Gaara's


Maybe, Maybe not.



> He most likely isn't going to be affected by that genjutsu


He absolutely will be given the mechanics. I believe I explained this to you before. So see that post, if you missed it.



> if he is one World Order will find that clam easily and probably kill gengetsu.


He's not likely to find the Clam by attacking randomly before Gengetsu kills him.



> Gengetsu sees Kakuzu fighting an illusion tries to kill him, revealing his location without realizing Kakuzu is Pseudo-Immortal and proceeds to get massacred. Same with Sasori unless he's lucky enough to get his heart cannister on a moving target on the first try (IF he is even affected by this genjutsu which I don't believe) and he hasn't shown any feats besides Joki boi and the clam. The dude is not as powerful as everyone is hypping him up to be.


He has ranged attacks, so why would his location be revealed?



> If he wasn''t edo he would've been annihalated


Why?

Edit: Also FYI, I think placing Sasori, Gengetsu, and Mu all in the same general range of strength and indicating that all of them are threats to Itachi-Class shinobi, albeit they are a bit inferior overall to Itachi at his best, is being pretty fair to all parties involved



Ryuzaki said:


> Nah, in his fight with Itachi he broke Tsukuyomi w/a base sharingan.
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...


I thought you were talking about Oboro brothers Illusion. But yeah Sasuke "broke" Tsukuyomi with his Sharingan, but Kakashi failed to do so. So it's a matter of skill, not the Sharingan seeing through the illusion automatically. And this is assuming Itachi didn't let him break it.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 23, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> I am astounded by the Gengetsu/Mu wan that has been on the forums the past few days. People wank Jinton so much  yet he wasn't able to kill gengetsu with it and they battled multiple times. Mu isn't Onoki who is a beast, they are both overhyped tlike crazy. Itachi beats Gengetsu easily, Sasori's poison doesn't simply wash away it diffuses in the water which simply spreads it easier, it doesn't disappear. Iron sand isn't regular sand which means more than likely it isn't getting Mucky like Gaara's. He most likely isn't going to be affected by that genjutsu and if he is one World Order will find that clam easily and probably kill gengetsu.
> 
> No way in hell does Obito lose to Gengetsu or Mu. It doesn't take long to realize you are in a genjutsu when none of your attack work. And fighting the Akatuski with no knowledge is equally dangerous
> 
> Gengetsu sees Kakuzu fighting an illusion tries to kill him, revealing his location without realizing Kakuzu is Pseudo-Immortal and proceeds to get massacred. Same with Sasori unless he's lucky enough to get his heart cannister on a moving target on the first try (IF he is even affected by this genjutsu which I don't believe) and he hasn't shown any feats besides Joki boi and the clam. The dude is not as powerful as everyone is hypping him up to be. If he wasn''t edo he would've been annihalated



I agree with this because I don't think he can touch anyone in the top tier but he comfortably wins against anyone in the Mid-Tier Akatsuki (e.g. Kisame, Kakuzu, Sasori) with the exception being Deidara and solos everyone in the lower tier Akatsuki (e.g. Konan, Zetsu, Hidan).


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I thought you were talking about Oboro brothers Illusion. But yeah Sasuke "broke" Tsukuyomi with his Sharingan, but Kakashi failed to do so. So it's a* matter of skill*, not the Sharingan seeing through the illusion automatically. And this is assuming Itachi didn't let him break it.



Yeah, that's the point I'm making. Itachi was shown to be the most skilled genjutsu user, I don't see him losing out in a battle of visual genjutsu.


----------



## Matty (Jul 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> People keep saying that but offer no compelling way for Itachi to win if he can't see through the Mirage.
> 
> 
> I don't see why it matters as your not poison a man made of water.
> ...



So Itachi, someone who I am sure can recognize a genjutsu, will figure it out eventually. If Gengetsu is powerful enough to just destroy people through illusions, If you use the logic of "Itachi doesn't know where he is" then you can just make the case he solo's nearly anyone in the verse.

He's made of water, however is it ever stated he can't be poisoned? Because until I see proof he can't be poisoned I will assume he can.

Most likely, yes, because I would imagine a metal to be harder to muck than just dirt.

What are the mechanics? I saw the post but I still don't understand. Genjutsu doesn't just happen it affects your body. So if someone isn't affected by genjutsu I would imagine it is against ALL rather than certain types. And if he is affected by Genjutsu he's affected by ALL types. I don't see a middle ground.

How is Gengetsu killing him though? For real, with no knowledge what is he going to do, he has no idea of his puppet body and no Idea where the vulnerable spot. I'll even give you the fact that he might go for the heart, i'm not even positive he tags him there.

Ranged attacks can still give location.

And simply because if they didn't have to use all of their effort sealing him he would've been fucked. If Onoki would've been healthy it wouldn't have even been a contest he could've solo'd him alone and Jinton'd a non-edo Gengetsu. Granted he gave them some knowledge in the beginning but still I stand by my statement


----------



## Matty (Jul 23, 2015)

@Turrin I agree. I just don't see Gengetsu beating Sasori that's all I'm saying. Mu is a different story. I just really don't believe Sasori is effected by that genjutsu and if he isn't He's destroying a non-edo Gengetsu.


----------



## Kai (Jul 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> They are totally different techniques. *Also Sasuke could not distinguish the real Oboro brothers from the illusionary one*s, or the Oboro brother's attacks from the illusionary ones, from what I can recall. He was just able to tell a Genjutsu was being utilized.


Sasuke distinguished them as illusions as soon as he saw them.

"*They* are illusions.... *This* is enemy genjutsu."




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Clearly it doesn't. See Tsukuyomi. Also the mirage is much different in mechanics from the normal Genjutsu, in that it's bending light with chakra, rather than manipulating someone's cranial nerve to make them hallucinate.


Tsukuyomi is stated to be an exception on more than one occasion.
Your reasoning to apply exceptions to other techniques are baseless, as usual. All genjutsu affects the user through one or more of the five senses.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> why the ? in kisame vs Muu?
> 
> Muu should murder kisame



He's gonna' have trouble on sneaking up on a submersed Kisame. Daikoden IMO trumps Jinton. The "?" was me giving Mu the benefit of the doubt because of his hype. Kisame's powerful, and a good match-up for him.



Icegaze said:


> I also don't see why sharingan auto sees through gengetsu genjutsu when such was never implied and when sharingan on panel has failed to even see through hidden mist



The Sharingan was implied to help with the Hidden Mist. Regardless, Itachi's hyper intelligent and IMO is a good candidate to find the clam regardless of having superhuman vision abilities.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> So Itachi, someone who I am sure can recognize a genjutsu, will figure it out eventually. If Gengetsu is powerful enough to just destroy people through illusions, If you use the logic of "Itachi doesn't know where he is"


How is Itachi figuring it eventually?



> then you can just make the case he solo's nearly anyone in the verse.


No you can't because there are characters with techniques that have an AOE large enough to hit the clam w/o seeing it, like B's Hachimaki. And than there are characters that have other means of detecting the clam besides their eyesight, like Gaara's Sand or Jiraiya's motion barrier. 

Itachi is just ill suited to dealing with the Clam's Mirage, because he doesn't have a massive AOE attack and he doesn't have any detection techniques beyond Sharingan. Or to put it simply itachi is a fighter that heavily relies on precise ocular abilities, it's therefore not surprising that he'd struggle against a fighter that hard counters ones sight.



> He's made of water, however is it ever stated he can't be poisoned? Because until I see proof he can't be poisoned I will assume he can.


The fact that he is made of water is the proof. I mean come on dude, let's be fair here. How would the poison even work on someone made of water. It's not magic, it works based on the effects it has on someone's body, which it will not and can not have on water.



> Most likely, yes, because I would imagine a metal to be harder to muck than just dirt.


The problem is Iron sand is made up of small grains of Iron-Sand, so i'm not so sure. If it was a solid slab of metal i'd agree.



> What are the mechanics? I saw the post but I still don't understand. Genjutsu doesn't just happen it affects your body. So if someone isn't affected by genjutsu I would imagine it is against ALL rather than certain types. And if he is affected by Genjutsu he's affected by ALL types. I don't see a middle ground.


That's the thing, it doesn't effect the person's body. It effects the battlefield bending light with chakra infused steam to create the illusions. So it's not making the target hallucinate it's actually creating the illusions.



> How is Gengetsu killing him though? For real, with no knowledge what is he going to do, he has no idea of his puppet body and no Idea where the vulnerable spot. I'll even give you the fact that he might go for the heart, i'm not even positive he tags him there.


I feel like if his first attack fails to do anything to him, he'll Blow him up with Jouki Boi next.



> Ranged attacks can still give location.


Apparently Gengetsu is careful enough to avoid this, as otherwise the Alliance and Gaara would not have needed to find the clam. 



> And simply because if they didn't have to use all of their effort sealing him he would've been fucked.


They would have still needed to seal him due to Suika no Jutsu.



> If Onoki would've been healthy it wouldn't have even been a contest he could've solo'd him alone and Jinton'd a non-edo Gengetsu.


Onoki would have still needed Gaara's help to find the Clam. And if Jinton could do Gengetsu in so easily he wouldn't have been able to fight against Mu successfully so many times.



> @Turrin I agree. I just don't see Gengetsu beating Sasori that's all I'm saying. Mu is a different story. I just really don't believe Sasori is effected by that genjutsu and if he isn't He's destroying a non-edo Gengetsu.


But the Genjutsu will work 

Also even if it didn't Sasori would have a tough time with Gengetsu due to Suika No Jutsu rendering most of Sasori's attacks useless and the danger of Jouki Boi.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

Kai said:


> Sasuke distinguished them as illusions as soon as he saw them.
> 
> "*They* are illusions.... *This* is enemy genjutsu."
> .


He knew the enemy was using Genjutsu but couldn't distinguish the illusions from the real attacks. Hence why he immediately attacked an illusion right after activating Sharingan:





> Tsukuyomi is stated to be an exception on more than one occasion.


So what your saying is that there can be exceptions based on the mechanics of the technique? So the Mirage is also an exception.



> Your reasoning to apply exceptions to other techniques are baseless, as usual. All genjutsu affects the user through one or more of the five senses.


Yah know there is this thing called the 4th Data-book that kind off describes how the Jutsu works


----------



## Kai (Jul 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> He knew the enemy was using Genjutsu but couldn't distinguish the illusions from the real attacks. Hence why he immediately attacked an illusion right after activating Sharingan:


Wrong; Sasuke attacked the illusion because the real ones who were hiding would attack at the same time as the illusions, the same exact reason Kabuto protected Sasuke from the illusion's attack immediately afterwards:


Sasuke saw through the illusion as stated, and he was aware of the fact that the real ones were attacking simultaneously with the illusions.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> So what your saying is that there can be exceptions based on the mechanics of the technique? So the Mirage is also an exception.


No Turrin, I'm not saying there can be exceptions just because you declared it an exception.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Yah know there is this thing called the 4th Data-book that kind off describes how the Jutsu works




Ironically, you want others to consider Oboro's genjutsu and the clam's genjutsu—two battlefield illusions—are two completely different techniques yet have the nerve to liken the clam's genjutsu to Tsukuyomi, two completely different illlusions in every sense of comparison.

Just stop.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

Kai said:


> Wrong; Sasuke attacked the illusion because the real ones who were hiding would attack at the same time as the illusions,


Which means he couldn't distinguish the real attacks from the illusions, otherwise he would have just focused on defending the real attacks. 



> Sasuke saw through the illusion as stated, and he was aware of the fact that the real ones were attacking simultaneously with the illusions.


Yes but could not distinguish the difference. Hence his surprise when his shuriken go right through the illusionary Oboro.





> No Turrin, *I'm not saying there can be exceptions* just because you declared it an exception.


Kai, "Tsukuyomi *is stated to be an exception* on more than one occasion." 



> ronically, you want others to consider Oboro's genjutsu and the clam's genjutsu—two battlefield illusions—are two completely different techniques.


What a crazy request on my part, to consider two different techniques, two different techniques LOL. Though if you want to consider the Clam the same as Oboro's shit, than cool, Sharingan can't see through it, as it couldn't see through Oboro's shit ether. 



> yet have the nerve to liken the clam's genjutsu to Tsukuyomi, two completely different illlusions in every sense of comparison


But i wasn't lol. I was merely using Tsukuyomi as an example to illustrate that there are visual based illusions Sharingan doesn't automatically see through.


----------



## Kai (Jul 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Which means he couldn't distinguish the real attacks from the illusions, otherwise he would have just focused on defending the real attacks.


You mean except the fact that he prevented the real ones from attacking Naruto at all in that instant. Sasuke's body was at the Cursed Seal's mercy — he was in no position to _wait_ for the real ones to attack. 

His Sharingan saw through the illusions as he stated.
"*They* are illusions....*This* is enemy genjutsu.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Yes but could not distinguish the difference. Hence his surprise when his shuriken go right through the illusionary Oboro.


I'm not sure how long this page needs to be posted until you take down your bullshit charade.


Sasuke outright states that the individuals are illusions. He sees them with his Sharingan.



> Kai: No Turrin, I'm not saying there can be exceptions *just because you declared it an exception*.
> Kai: "Tsukuyomi *is stated to be an exception* on more than one occasion."




I've never seen an English major fail this hard until today.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> What a crazy request on my part, to consider two different techniques, two different techniques LOL. Though if you want to consider the Clam the same as Oboro's shit, than cool, Sharingan can't see through it, as it couldn't see through Oboro's shit ether.



You were proven wrong and your bullshit was called out.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> But i wasn't lol. I was merely using Tsukuyomi as an example to illustrate that there are visual based illusions Sharingan doesn't automatically see through.


And then proceeded to declare the mirage as an exception *based* on Tsukuyomi's status.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> So what your saying is that there can be exceptions based on the mechanics of the technique?* So the Mirage is also an exception*.



Hence, likening the clam genjutsu to Tsukuyomi, despite condemning likening the clam's genjutu to Oboro's genjutsu.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

Kai said:


> You mean except the fact that he prevented the real ones from attacking Naruto at all in that instant. Sasuke's body was at the Cursed Seal's mercy — he was in no position to _wait_ for the real ones to attack.
> 
> His Sharingan saw through the illusions as he stated.
> "*They* are illusions....*This* is enemy genjutsu.
> ...


So your argument is basically that Sasuke knew that the Oboro brother he was attacking was an illusion, but attacked it anyway, to stop the real Oboro brothers from attacking, but than proceed to be shocked that the illusion he attacked was indeed an illusion.

And that somehow Sasuke knowing he's in an illusion, is the same thing as being able to see through it, cause yah know reasons, after all it's not like we've blantantly seen another instance where Sasuke is aware of the fact that the enemy is using Genjutsu, but could not see through it on his own:
Link removed

That would just be cray cray.

Than your further extrapolating from this, that since Sharingan can see through a Genin's D-Rank Genjutsu [Even though pro-tip it couldn't], it automatically can see through a Kages B-Rank illusion that has an entirely different mechanic driving it, because of the surface similarity that both are "battlefield illusions".

Yes clearly I was wrong to ever doubt this amazingly sound argument you've posted :rofl 



> I've never seen an English major fail this hard until today.


No you just missed my point. I pointed out Tsukuyomi was an exception and you agree it was an exception. So you have already agreed that there can be exceptions. 



> You were proven wrong and your bullshit was called out.


Yes indeed my crazy bullshit of not wanting to equate a Kage's Genjutsu to a fucking fodder Genin's D-rank illusion from the Chunin Prelims 

And my other crazy bullshit of believing that when a character is shocked he hit and illusion, he is shocked that he hit an illusion 

So much crazy bullshit indeed.



> And then proceeded to declare the mirage as an exception based on Tsukuyomi's status.


I used the example of Tsukuyomi to establish their can be exceptions.
Than I said the Clam Mirage can be an exception as well
Not because it has similar mechanics to Tsukuyomi, but because of it's own mechanics.

How is this a hard concept to grasp .



> Hence, likening the clam genjutsu to Tsukuyomi, despite condemning likening the clam's genjutu to Oboro's genjutsu.


No where in that post do I do that LOL

Edit: Your trying so hard to prove me wrong due to buthurt over the Kakashi thread, that your making yourself look foolish Kai, so for your own sake I urge you to stop before you dig yourself deeper into this hole.


----------



## Kai (Jul 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> So your argument is basically that Sasuke knew that the Oboro brother he was attacking was an illusion, but attacked it anyway, to stop the real Oboro brothers from attacking, but than proceed to be shocked that the illusion he attacked was indeed an illusion.
> 
> And that somehow Sasuke knowing he's in an illusion, is the same thing as being able to see through it, cause yah know reasons, after all it's not like we've blantantly seen another instance where Sasuke is aware of the fact that the enemy is using Genjutsu, but could not see through it on his own:
> Link removed
> ...


 

Look how hard you try even in the face of being disproved.



"*They* are illusions.... *This* is enemy genjutsu.

Turrin: Sasuke couldn't see through enemy genjutsu, it would be cray if he could. I have reasons.






			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> No you just missed my point. I pointed out Tsukuyomi was an exception and you agree it was an exception. So you have already agreed that there can be exceptions.


I said it wasn't an exception just because you declared it an exception. 

Then you tried to cut off the fact that you declared it an exception from my post. You're resorting to dishonesty in a debate now? I know that, as an English major you should be all too familiar with the usage of conjunctions in a sentence.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Yes indeed my crazy bullshit of not wanting to equate a Kage's Genjutsu to a fucking fodder Genin's D-rank illusion from the Chunin Prelims


Yet another instance of shifting the goal post :ignoramus
Sharingan sees through visual based illusions. How is the clam's genjutsu an exception to this rule without fallaciously translating the notion to other stated and explained exceptions, like Tsukuyomi?



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> I used the example of Tsukuyomi to establish their can be exceptions.
> Than I said the Clam Mirage can be an exception as well
> Not because it has similar mechanics to Tsukuyomi, but because of it's own mechanics.
> 
> How is this a hard concept to grasp .


You literally told me that because Tsukuyomi was an exception to genjutsu, so is the clam's genjutsu.





			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> So what your saying is that there can be exceptions based on the mechanics of the technique? *So the Mirage is also an exception.*






			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> No where in that post do I do that LOL
> 
> Edit: Your trying so hard to prove me wrong due to buthurt over the Kakashi thread, that your making yourself look foolish Kai, so for your own sake I urge you to stop before you dig yourself deeper into this hole.


Turrin, I gave you positive notes as a translator in the Kakashi thread when you were being flagged as a dishonest translator and interpreter by other(s) 

More importantly, bringing up another thread doesn't cover the hypocrisy you have displayed in this thread.


----------



## GilgameshXFate (Jul 23, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Area: Sasuke vs Deidara
> Knowledge: None
> Restrictions: None
> Mindset: IC
> ...



*Muu*

Hidan- Can't find him while invisible and Jinton bypasses his Immortality complete mismatch.

Konan: Can't find Muu while invisible, Paper form gets vaporized by Jinton.

Kakuzu: Can't detect Muu while invisible, and Jinton bypasses his 5 Heart system by vaporizing his entire body killing all Hearts at once.

Deidara: Now theoretically speaking, even when Muu is invisible if Deidara does C4 then he will still inhale the bombs and die, But being that Deidara won't straight away go for C4, he'll most likely go for C2 Dragon when Muu goes invisible, which is where Muu will vaporize him with Jinton, Though a bloodlusted Deidara does have a chance of winning with C4 or drawing with an immediate C0.

Kisame: Kisame like Deidara has a way of winning with an immediate Water Dome, which will allow Kisame to detect Muu through his Invisibility and to kill him with Daikodan, but in IC Kisame would open up with Weaker Suitons and get Vaporized, Now if Samehada can absorb Jinton, then Kisame would probably win for being the ultimate counter for Muu then, So this is a 50/50 match up.

Sasori: Another person that can't find invisible Muu, and his only defense of switching hearts between puppets will be useless here as he would be vaped by Jinton before he could change hearts, Or Muu could just take his time Vaping every puppet one by one, As Sasori can't hit him and all of Muu's attacks are OHKOs.

Itachi: The entire battle HINGES on whatever or not Itachi can see Muu through his invisibility, because if he can't even with Susano'o Itachi is getting vaped no ifs or buts about it. Now if Itachi's Sharingan can see through Muu then Muu is up shits creek without a paddle, Because Muu is going to die from Amaterasu or Totsuka blade, so 50/50 battle.

Nagato: Chibaku Tensei GG-

Assuming Pre Rinnegan Obito:  Muu can't hit him with Jinton through his Kamui, but the rest of the battle pretty much relies on the same thing as Itachi's whatever or not Obito can see through Muu, If he can he wins if he can't well its just going to be a stalemate-

*Gengetsu Hozuki*

Hidan: Can't Break through Clam Genjutsu and gets head ripped off.

Konan: Can't see through Clam Genjutsu, gets shot in the brain.

Kakuzu: While he can't break out of the clam Genjutsu, Kakuzu can avoid Gengetsu by himself by just spamming AOE Jutsu around himself, But he'll eventually get killed by Joki Boy.

Deidara: Pretty much the same deal with Muu  either its going to be a Draw with C0, a victory with an immediate C4, or else it depends on whatever Deidara's genjutsu immune eye lets him see through the clams genjutsu, if it can then he'll have the advantage over Gengetsu, so leaning towards a Deidara victory here.

Kisame: This depends if Samehada can break Kisame out of the Clams Genjutsu, if it can then Kisame is overall superior to Gengetsu but if it can't then eventually Gengetsu will wear Kisame down with repeated Joki Boi attacks, and will win, so its a 50/50 match.

Sasori: Luckily Sasori is immune to the Clams Genjutsu allowing him to just fight Gengetsu directly, which he'll actually have the advantage with superior numbers in terms of puppets that can overpower the Clam physically, and Sasori due to being a very bad matchup will win.

Itachi: Now Itachi being one of the best Genjutsu Masters in the entire series being hyped more in that area then Gengetsu certainly, should be able to break the Clams Genjutsu no problem, and from there Itachi can basically do whatever he wants from putting Gengetsu in Tsukiyomi or sealing him with the Totsuka Blade, Itachi is another good counter for Gengetsu.

Nagato: I don't doubt the Rinnegans ability to see through the Clams genjutsu and from there any of Nagatos big tier jutsu like Chou Shinra Tensei or Chibaku Tensei will kill Gengetsu from there.

Pre Rinnegan Obito: Obito also being a hyped Genjutsu Master, controlling the Kyubi and putting A perfect Jin under a Genjutsu for years, should be able to break out of the Clam Genjutsu, and from there Gengetsu can't hit Obito with anything and Obito will eventually beat Gengetsu.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

Kai said:


> Look how hard you try even in the face of being disproved.
> .


Allow me to cut through all the bullshit Kai.

I do not pretend that i'm right when I know i'm wrong. I absolutely assure you that If I am wrong about this, that I am completely oblivious to the reason why. You keep showing me that panel of Sasuke saying it's an Illusion over and over again, as if it's suppose to prove to me that i'm wrong, but all I'm getting from you showing me that, is that your employing a false equivalence fallacy. Because unless i'm missing something major here:

Someone knowing that something is an illusion ≠ Someone being able to see through that illusion.

We've seen many examples of a characters who knew they were in an illusion or seeing an illusion, yet they could not see through said illusion. 

So I'll ask very simply here, how does Sasuke knowing he's seeing an illusion, mean he can see through the illusion, anymore than any of the other times we've seen a character know they are seeing an illusion, but could not see through said illusion? Or is there some other reason i'm missing for why that panel proves me wrong?

I'd also like to ask, why Sasuke is shocked when he hits an illusionary Oboro, if he knew said Oboro was an illusion? 

Furthermore I'd like to ask if you truly believe it's fair to compare a D-Rank Genin Genjutsu to a Kage's Genjutsu?

Now there can be no misrepresentation, hypocrisy, or whatever on my part, because i'm asking you the questions and the ball is in your court to answer them in your own words.


----------



## Kai (Jul 23, 2015)

Again, read Sasuke's words. He clearly says, "*They* (as in the Oboros) are illusions. *This* is enemy genjutsu". Meaning, Sasuke sees through the illusion when he looks at Oboro. Kabuto confirms what Sasuke sees with his Sharingan. As for why Sasuke attacked the illusion, why did Kabuto defend Sasuke from an illusion? They just became aware of the fact that the real ones who were hiding attack along with the illusions.

It's utterly pointless to ask why they attack or defend from the illusions when we were explicitly told the real attacks accompany the illusions. That doesn't take away from the fact that Sasuke sees and knows they are illusions. Sasuke outright stated they are illusions, as seen after he activated his Sharingan. 

Comparing an A-rank genjutsu to a D-rank genjutsu isn't unfair if we're scaling a Sharingan master with 3 tomoes from a 1/2 tomoe Sharingan novice who saw through the D-rank genjutsu, and if both genjutsu are battlefield genjutsu. Why not? We're not given any reason to believe, other than your prevalence for it to be so, that the clam's genjutsu is an exception to the textbook fact that Sharingan sees through visual-based illusions. Bringing Tsukuyomi into the debate doesn't help your case at all.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Jul 23, 2015)

*Spoiler*: _Muu_ 



Hidan-W
Konan-L
Kakuzu-W
Deidara-W
Kisame-W
Sasori-W
Itachi-L





*Spoiler*: _gengetsu_ 



Hidan-W
Konan-W
Kakuzu-L
Deidara-L
Kisame-L
Sasori-L
Itachi-W


----------



## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

Kai said:


> Again, read Sasuke's words. He clearly says, "*They* (as in the Oboros) are illusions. *This* is enemy genjutsu".


I still think your misunderstanding my question. So let me pose it another way, how is what your citing any different than this:


Naruto realized he was seeing an illusion, but he could not see through the illusion.



> Kabuto confirms what Sasuke sees with his Sharingan. As for why Sasuke attacked the illusion, why did Kabuto defend Sasuke from an illusion? They just became aware of the fact that the real ones who were hiding attack along with the illusions.
> 
> It's utterly pointless to ask why they attack or defend from the illusions when we were explicitly told the real attacks accompany the illusions. That doesn't take away from the fact that Sasuke sees and knows they are illusions. Sasuke outright stated they are illusions, as seen after he activated his Sharingan.


That wasn't my question. My question is why is Sasuke "!?" when he hits an illusionary Oboro, if he knew it was an illusion?

Basically what I circle in this panel:





> Comparing an A-rank genjutsu to a D-rank genjutsu isn't unfair if we're scaling a Sharingan master with 3 tomoes from a 1/2 tomoe Sharingan novice who saw through the D-rank genjutsu, and if both genjutsu are battlefield genjutsu. Why not?


You don't think mechanics of the Technique matter? You don't think it matters that the gap between Oboro Bros and Gengetsu is probably a-lot more vast than the gap between 2-Tome and 3-Tome's perception capabilities?



> We're not given any reason to believe, other than your prevalence for it to be so, that the clam's genjutsu is an exception to the textbook fact that Sharingan sees through visual-based illusions


The reason I said it could be an exception is because it's mechanics are different than that of normal Genjutsu, in that is uses chakra infused steam to bend light to create illusions and cloak the user's presence, rather than making the target hallucinate.



> Bringing Tsukuyomi into the debate doesn't help your case at all.


Again I only brought Tsukuyomi into the discussion, to show their are exceptions. Not that the Clam's Mirage is an exception for the same reasons as Tsukuyomi. Perhaps I could have made that clearer initially, but it should be clear to you now.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 23, 2015)

As for Itachi seeing the clam, it is a little on the nose if you believe the best genjutsu user in the manga wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a visual genjutsu given the fact that he has the sharingan and it's his forte.





Turrin said:


> Allow me to cut through all the bullshit Kai.
> 
> *I do not pretend that i'm right when I know i'm wrong. *I absolutely assure you that If I am wrong about this, that I am completely oblivious to the reason why. You keep showing me that panel of Sasuke saying it's an Illusion over and over again, as if it's suppose to prove to me that i'm wrong, but all I'm getting from you showing me that, is that your employing a false equivalence fallacy. Because unless i'm missing something major here:
> 
> ...



Where have I seen this story before? 


Turrin said:


> You don't think mechanics of the Technique matter? You don't think it matters that the gap between Oboro Bros and Gengetsu is probably a-lot more vast than the gap between 2-Tome and 3-Tome's perception capabilities?



Please tell me you think that the gap between 2-Tome Sasuke and 3-Tome Itachi isn't huge


----------



## Mercurial (Jul 23, 2015)

Obito negs Gengetsu so hard that the poor Trollkage will feel himself trolled. Sharingan/Mangekyo Sharingan to see through the clam's mirage, Kamui teleporting to avoid Jokey Boy and surprise Gengetsu, Kamui phasing to dodge everything, Mokuton and so on. Obito is really too much, the Mizukage has no chances in hell.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> As for Itachi seeing the clam, it is a little on the nose if you believe the best genjutsu user in the manga wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a visual genjutsu given the fact that he has the sharingan and it's his forte.


It's pretty ridiculous that in 2015 people are still equating Genjutsu skill to ones ability to see through Genjutsu, despite literally nothing in the manga supporting this ever.

Also Itachi is not the best Genjutsu user in the manga. Kaguya and Madara are eons above him.



> Where have I seen this story before?


It's more like where have I seen this buthurt before, oh every time someone's argument is not strong enough to change my opinion. 



> Please tell me you think that the gap between 2-Tome Sasuke and 3-Tome Itachi isn't huge


Both are huge, but undoubtably the gap between a legendary Kage and Fodder's D-Rank Genjutsu is way greater.

Though imo nether should be compared because the gap is so enormous, and indeed i'm not the one comparing them.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> It's pretty ridiculous that in 2015 people are still equating Genjutsu skill to ones ability to see through Genjutsu, despite literally nothing in the manga supporting this ever.
> 
> Also Itachi is not the best Genjutsu user in the manga. *Kaguya and Madara are eons above him.*


Assuming the genjutsu that the clam uses is made of chakra just like anything else, why wouldn't it show up on any of the 3 major dojutsu we have seen? It's pretty asinine that you have taken the debate this far down the gutter with little or no evidence to support it otherwise.

Honestly, these last few weeks, I've lost a good deal of respect for you, but each time I think I can't lose more, you surprise me. As you were, Turrin, as you were. 



Turrin said:


> It's more like where have I seen this buthurt before, oh every time someone's argument is not strong enough to change my opinion.


At this point, it's pretty obvious that you care way less about the manga than you do about being right. Oh look another discussion about semantics and terminology...





> Kai said:
> 
> 
> > Again, read Sasuke's words. He clearly says, "*They* (as in the Oboros) are illusions. *This* is enemy genjutsu". Meaning, Sasuke sees through the illusion when he looks at Oboro. Kabuto confirms what Sasuke sees with his Sharingan. As for why Sasuke attacked the illusion, why did Kabuto defend Sasuke from an illusion? They just became aware of the fact that the real ones who were hiding attack along with the illusions.
> ...





Turrin said:


> Both are huge, but undoubtably the gap between a legendary Kage and Fodder's D-Rank Genjutsu is way greater.
> 
> Though imo nether should be compared because the gap is so enormous, and indeed i'm not the one comparing them.


Itachi is on that legendary kage scale based on your other thread, most people pretty much voted him into the High Mid-Kage category comfortably. In fact, if we were to subject Gengetsu to the same thread run, I doubt he makes it as high as Itachi did either.


----------



## Bonly (Jul 23, 2015)

*The French Dude*

Hidan-*Win*
Konan-*Win*
Kakuzu-*Wins*
Deidara- *Wins*
Kisame- *Loses*
Sasori- *Wins*
Itachi/Nagato/Obito-*Lose*

*Muu*

Hidan-*Win*
Konan-*Win*
Kakuzu-*Wins*
Deidara- *Wins*
Kisame- *Wins*
Sasori- *Wins*
Itachi/Nagato/Obito-*Lose*


----------



## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Assuming the genjutsu that the clam uses is made of chakra just like anything else, why wouldn't it show up on any of the 3 major dojutsu we have seen? It's pretty asinine that you have taken the debate this far down the gutter with little or no evidence to support it otherwise.
> .


I've already explained why I think the Mirage will throw off Sharingan:


I thought so too when the DB was initially released, because of how Obito saw through Taiseki's light bending trick, but I re-read that chapter recently, and Obito's sharingan didn't see through Taiseki's invis, rather he saw Taiseki's chakra, and defended based on that. Considering the Clam Mirage uses the same principal as Taiseki's technique, the Sharingan would also see chakra, but the problem is unlike Taiseki's technique or Mu's invisibility where the chakra is just centered around the individual, the chakra is within the steam released by the Clam and is creating mirages all over the battlefield. So they would see the chakra of tons of other Gengetsu's and Clams, wherever there is a mirage, similar to how the Aburame's bug jamming technique was used to counter Sharingan:
Link removed


And this is also why sensing didn't work, because the sensors were sensing tons of chakra sources all over the battlefield. Again like the bug jamming technique.



> Honestly, these last few weeks, I've lost a good deal of respect for you, but each time I think I can't lose more, you surprise me. As you were, Turrin, as you were.


The feeling is mutual I assure you 



> At this point, it's pretty obvious that you care way less about the manga than you do about being right..


At this point, it's pretty obvious that you care way less about the manga than you do about proving me wrong.



> Itachi is on that legendary kage scale based on your other thread, most people pretty much voted him into the High Mid-Kage category comfortably. In fact, if we were to subject Gengetsu to the same thread run, I doubt he makes it as high as Itachi did either.


Cool, but Oboro Bros are much more fodderific than Sasuke.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 24, 2015)

Kai said:


> Again, read Sasuke's words. He clearly says, "*They* (as in the Oboros) are illusions. *This* is enemy genjutsu". Meaning, Sasuke sees through the illusion when he looks at Oboro. Kabuto confirms what Sasuke sees with his Sharingan. As for why Sasuke attacked the illusion, why did Kabuto defend Sasuke from an illusion? They just became aware of the fact that the real ones who were hiding attack along with the illusions.
> 
> It's utterly pointless to ask why they attack or defend from the illusions when we were explicitly told the real attacks accompany the illusions. That doesn't take away from the fact that Sasuke sees and knows they are illusions. Sasuke outright stated they are illusions, as seen after he activated his Sharingan.
> 
> Comparing an A-rank genjutsu to a D-rank genjutsu isn't unfair if we're scaling a Sharingan master with 3 tomoes from a 1/2 tomoe Sharingan novice who saw through the D-rank genjutsu, and if both genjutsu are battlefield genjutsu. Why not? We're not given any reason to believe, other than your prevalence for it to be so, that the clam's genjutsu is an exception to the textbook fact that Sharingan sees through visual-based illusions. Bringing Tsukuyomi into the debate doesn't help your case at all.



so all ive got from this is obito or itachi would know its a genjutsu but will have to avoid the mirage attacks since the real gengetsu can simply accompany his attack with the mirages attacks

so how does that put them in a difference situation from the one genin sasuke was in


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I've already explained why I think the Mirage will throw off Sharingan:
> 
> I thought so too when the DB was initially released, because of how Obito saw through Taiseki's light bending trick, but I re-read that chapter recently, and Obito's sharingan didn't see through Taiseki's invis, rather he saw Taiseki's chakra, and defended based on that. Considering the Clam Mirage uses the same principal as Taiseki's technique, the Sharingan would also see chakra, but the problem is unlike Taiseki's technique or Mu's invisibility where the chakra is just centered around the individual, the chakra is within the steam released by the Clam and is creating mirages all over the battlefield. So they would see the chakra of tons of other Gengetsu's and Clams, wherever there is a mirage, similar to how the Aburame's bug jamming technique was used to counter Sharingan:
> Hashirama, Tobirama, and Narudo as idiots


The difference here is nothing is going to mask the clam or the genjutsu from Itach's eyes. Based on your supposition, the genjutsu within the steam would only show reflections and someone of Itachi's caliber is going to see through the trick. 



Turrin said:


> And this is also* why sensing didn't work*, because the sensors were sensing tons of chakra sources all over the battlefield. Again like the bug jamming technique.



I highly doubt that, Itachi isn't a sensor and doesn't rely on this ability to defend or go on the attack.  The best he can do is create copies which again Itachi would realize there is some trick to it. He's not on the same level as the fodder jounin.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 24, 2015)

itachi would see there Is a trick to it 

but considering the real gengetsu hides his attack with the mirage attacks I don't see how itachi counters it

gaara a kage with knowledge was being slapped around by gengetsu standing on his clam not breaking a sweat

unless itachi finds the clam he is going to get himself killed


----------



## Turrin (Jul 24, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> The difference here is nothing is going to mask the clam or the genjutsu from Itach's eyes. Based on your supposition, the genjutsu within the steam would only show reflections and someone of Itachi's caliber is going to see through the trick.
> .


The bending of light masks the Clam and Gengetsu from Itachi's eyes. Sharingan can see chakra however, than the many sources of chakra of all the illusions will throw off Sharingan's ability to see chakra. It's literally the same principle the alliance used to defeat Sharingan. The Suna shinobi kicked up a dust cloud to block their vision, but they could still see chakra, so the Aburame used their insect jamming to create so many chakra sources that it threw off their ability to determine the enemies location via chakra.



> highly doubt that, Itachi isn't a sensor and doesn't rely on this ability to defend or go on the attack. The best he can do is create copies which again Itachi would realize there is some trick to it. He's not on the same level as the fodder jounin.


Of course he'll realize their is some trick to it, but he won't have a way to distinguish the copies from the real ones and he has no AOE technique capable of covering the entire battlefield. So he'll be left attacking at random hoping he eventually hits the real one. I believe he will run out of steam playing whack-a-mole and loose the match more often than he actually managed to whack the mole or in this case the Clam.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 24, 2015)

Turrin clearly underestimates Susano'o: Totsuka Pirouette.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Turrin clearly underestimates Susano'o: Totsuka Pirouette.



Well that's because Susano'o was always stuck as the Black Swan


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> The bending of light masks the Clam and Gengetsu from Itachi's eyes. Sharingan can see chakra however, than the many sources of chakra of all the illusions will throw off Sharingan's ability to see chakra. It's literally the same principle the alliance used to defeat Sharingan. The Suna shinobi kicked up a dust cloud to block their vision, but they could still see chakra, so the Aburame used their insect jamming to create so many chakra sources that it threw off their ability to determine the enemies location via chakra.
> 
> Of course he'll realize their is some trick to it, but he won't have a way to distinguish the copies from the real ones and he has no AOE technique capable of covering the entire battlefield. So he'll be left attacking at random hoping he eventually hits the real one. I believe he will run out of steam playing whack-a-mole and loose the match more often than he actually managed to whack the mole or in this case the Clam.


The reflection won't be able to hide the clam as it would be an independent entity and would have a different chakra system than the genjutsu mirages. Itachi is intelligent enough to link the clam to the genjutsu and he'll take out the clam as he sees it.


----------



## Kai (Jul 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I still think your misunderstanding my question. So let me pose it another way, how is what your citing any different than this:
> 
> 
> Naruto realized he was seeing an illusion, but he could not see through the illusion.


Simple. As we're all aware, there are outlandish illusions and subtle illusions. The one Naruto encountered couldn't possibly be real based on the contents but it matters not since it was designed for psychological torture to cripple the mind.

The illusion Team 7 encountered in the Forest of Death was a subtle illusion designed to bypass their sense of security and wear them down. Sasuke saw through the illusion as soon as he activated his Sharingan as he stated all the Oboros were illusions.

Therefore, your example doesn't fit because there are illusions that are designed to be hard to detect but are nevertheless completely unraveled by the Sharingan.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> That wasn't my question. My question is why is Sasuke "!?" when he hits an illusionary Oboro, if he knew it was an illusion?
> 
> Basically what I circle in this panel:


Who says that indicates anything about Sasuke not knowing it's an illusion? You're gasping at straws with baseless assumptions _again_.

Sasuke *outright states* the Oboros are illusions and concludes it is enemy genjutsu 




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> You don't think mechanics of the Technique matter? You don't think it matters that the gap between Oboro Bros and Gengetsu is probably a-lot more vast than the gap between 2-Tome and 3-Tome's perception capabilities?


No, you're the only person who thinks this arbitrary vastness matters.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> The reason I said it could be an exception is because it's mechanics are different than that of normal Genjutsu, in that is uses chakra infused steam to bend light to create illusions and cloak the user's presence, rather than making the target hallucinate.


Anyone who is affected by the genjutsu is hallucinating.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 24, 2015)

Reading chapter 62 again
Gengetsu genjutsu really isn't any different. 

shame


----------



## Kai (Jul 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:
			
		

> so all ive got from this is obito or itachi would know its a genjutsu but will have to avoid the mirage attacks since the real gengetsu can simply accompany his attack with the mirages attacks
> 
> so how does that put them in a difference situation from the one genin sasuke was in


But the mirages will not fool the Sharingan, and Gengetsu attacking from elsewhere will reveal his location instantly.



Anyways, regarding swarming the Sharingan's vision with chakra - chakra is not all the eye sees. Are you forgetting it possesses *regular* vision as well? The Alliance's tactic worked against the Sharingan because they blinded its *naked eye* vision with the dust cloud in combination with its *chakra vision* with the bug jamming technique. It literally blocked two sources of vision.

The Sharingan won't be swarmed by the mirage's chakra signatures because of what the basic naked eye can see - that is, it will see right through the illusion but its regular vision will be unharmed.

Or is anyone suggesting the Sharingan needs to be switched on and off in order not to be blinded by chakra signatures  

It possesses both what the naked eye can see *as well as* its enhanced vision of chakra.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 24, 2015)

What about the Five Kage's Kirigakure tactic against Madara?


----------



## Kai (Jul 24, 2015)

What about it?

Kirigakure no Jutsu obscures vision and the mist is blanketed with the user's chakra. Gengetsu's clam mirage genjutsu doesn't even obscure naked eyesight - it merely produces mirages. And we're to believe the Sharingan user will be _blinded_ by chakra signatures when people with regular eyes wouldn't be?


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 24, 2015)

It didn't obscure anybody else's vision, though, just the Rinnegan's. The Rinnegan which, like the Sharingan has naked eyesight and Chakra-sensitive eyesight.

So it seemed like what they were trying to do was just flood Madara's field of vision with the color of Chakra.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 24, 2015)

I thought the mist flooded everybody's vision.

That's why Zabuza noted that he was adapt at sound-based killing when he fought Kakashi.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 24, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> The reflection won't be able to hide the clam as it would be an independent entity and would have a different chakra system than the genjutsu mirages. Itachi is intelligent enough to link the clam to the genjutsu and he'll take out the clam as he sees it.


Since when has Sharingan ever been able to see someone's chakra network. Maybe, just maybe that might work for Byakugan, but not Sharingan.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 24, 2015)

Kai said:


> Simple. As we're all aware, there are outlandish illusions and subtle illusions. The one Naruto encountered couldn't possibly be real based on the contents


Karasu Bushin 



> The illusion Team 7 encountered in the Forest of Death was a subtle illusion designed to bypass their sense of security and wear them down.


You really want me to believe, phantoms made of black fog, that attacks go right through, and can slip through reality, can reform their faces out of their arms and shit, are subtle?



> . Sasuke saw through the illusion as soon as he activated his Sharingan as he stated all the Oboros were illusions.


He did not stated that right after activating the Sharingan, he stated that after his Shuriken went through one of the fog phantoms.



> Therefore, your example doesn't fit because there are illusions that are designed to be hard to detect but are nevertheless completely unraveled by the Sharingan.


If your saying it's a matter of how subtle the illusion is, I don't find the Oboro Bros Genjutsu very subtle and Sasuke already knew the Oboro brothers were Genjutsu users from their usage of a previous illusion:
eform their faces out of their arms and shit



> Who says that indicates anything about Sasuke not knowing it's an illusion? You're gasping at straws with baseless assumptions again.


If it's grasping at straws, you should be able to easily answer the question instead of dancing around it? So I'll ask you once again:

Why is Sasuke "!?" when he hits an illusionary Oboro, if he knew it was an illusion?

Basically what I circle in this panel:





> No, you're the only person who thinks this arbitrary vastness matters.


To be clear your saying mechanics of the techniques don't matter? 
To be clear, you believe it's fair to speak of how a Fodder-Genin's Technique performed against a Genin-Sasuke, interchangeably with how a Kage's Technique would perform against Itachi?

Yes or No?



> Anyone who is affected by the genjutsu is hallucinating.


Hallucination, _"a sensory experience of something that does not exist outside the mind, caused by various physical and mental disorders, or by reaction to certain toxic substances, and usually manifested as visual or auditory images."_

Clam's Mirage creates real images that exist through bending light. That is very different than the normal Genjutsu, which causes the target to hallucinate by manipulating the chakra in the target's brain:
eform their faces out of their arms and shit


----------



## Kai (Jul 27, 2015)

Had no time for this the past weekend, but now I do.



Turrin said:


> Karasu Bushin


The crows reformed into Itachi and Itachi was levitating  Sasuke appeared on the other half of Naruto's face 

It wasn't meant to be a subtle illusion.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> You really want me to believe, phantoms made of black fog, that attacks go right through, and can slip through reality, can reform their faces out of their arms and shit, are subtle?


What do you mean? They could have been anything. Naruto thought they were clones. Sakura couldn't tell. The whole team was deceived into walking in circles until they were tired. Now:
>Sasuke activated his Sharingan to identify
>Sasuke identified the phenomenon as genjutsu.

His Sharingan saw through their genjutsu  You're really going to just discard this straight fact when this is the *first time in the manga* Sasuke uses his Sharingan to see through genjutsu.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> He did not stated that right after activating the Sharingan, he stated that after his Shuriken went through one of the fog phantoms.


Sasuke did state that after he activated his Sharingan and *kept his Sharingan active* throughout the duration until the Cursed Seal took control.

Sasuke's Sharingan saw through the genjutsu and claimed *they*, the Oboros were an illusion.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> If your saying it's a matter of how subtle the illusion is, I don't find the Oboro Bros Genjutsu very subtle and Sasuke already knew the Oboro brothers were Genjutsu users from their usage of a previous illusion:
> eform their faces out of their arms and shit


And that was a subtle illusion where they were blatantly stated to be deceived into wearing themselves out by walking in circles.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> If it's grasping at straws, you should be able to easily answer the question instead of dancing around it? So I'll ask you once again:
> 
> Why is Sasuke "!?" when he hits an illusionary Oboro, if he knew it was an illusion?
> 
> Basically what I circle in this panel:


No because you're well known for taking delight in arbitrary details after being proven wrong. Here's a better question: Why did Sasuke both activate and keep his Sharingan active as long as he could after being engaged by the illusioniary Oboros?  I already told you Sasuke prevented the real Oboros from attacking Naruto by attacking the illusion's attacks.

Now why did Sasuke activate his Sharingan and keep it active until CS interference? 
A) Sasuke states he will uncover the mystery
B) Sasuke activates his Sharingan
C) Sasuke outright states *they* (Oboros) are illusions and *this* (phenomenon) is enemy genjutsu.
D) Kabuto is there to support and confirm what Sasuke visualizes.

You just keep denying what is presented at face value and focus only on arbitrary details that are brought forth after shifting the goal post 

I mean, Kabuto literally supports Sasuke's official identification with Sharingan despite suspecting there was genjutsu in play 




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> To be clear your saying mechanics of the techniques don't matter?
> To be clear, you believe it's fair to speak of how a Fodder-Genin's Technique performed against a Genin-Sasuke, interchangeably with how a Kage's Technique would perform against Itachi?
> 
> Yes or No?


If you're so adamant on talking mechanics, you can drop the vagueness and show what about Gengetsu's illusion mechanics make it an exceptional illusion against the Sharingan.

Both illusions are a similar subcategory of genjutsu that affect the battlefield and you've yet to disprove anything on this front; instead you're asking me yes or no questions when I told you explicitly this was my point to you since the start. 



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Hallucination, _"a sensory experience of something that does not exist outside the mind, caused by various physical and mental disorders, or by reaction to certain toxic substances, and usually manifested as visual or auditory images."_
> 
> Clam's Mirage creates real images that exist through bending light. That is very different than the normal Genjutsu, which causes the target to hallucinate by manipulating the chakra in the target's brain:
> eform their faces out of their arms and shit




You're going to sit there and tell me mirages are real images. Here, I'll make you keep sitting there while it's my turn to lecture you on dictionary definitions:



> Mirage
> noun
> 1.
> an optical phenomenon, especially in the desert or at sea, by which the image of some object appears displaced above, below, or to one side of its true position as a result of spatial variations of the index of refraction of air.
> ...



The *only* genjutsu we're aware of that can turn an illusion into any sort of tangible reality is Izanagi.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 27, 2015)

Kai said:


> Sasuke appeared on the other half of Naruto's face


That happened after Naruto had already realized it was an illusion.



> The crows reformed into Itachi and Itachi was levitating  Sasuke appeared on the other half of Naruto's faceWhat do you mean? They could have been anything. Naruto thought they were clones. Sakura couldn't tell. The whole team was deceived into walking in circles until they were tired. Now:


I'm sorry, but I literally see no difference between Naruto throwing a Kunai at Itachi, the attack going through him, revealing he's made of crows, and than him reforming; and Sasuke throwing a Kunai, the attack going through Oboro, revealing he's made of black fog, and then him reforming. 



> >Sasuke activated his Sharingan to identify
> >Sasuke identified the phenomenon as genjutsu.
> 
> His Sharingan saw through their genjutsu  You're really going to just discard this straight fact when this is the first time in the manga Sasuke uses his Sharingan to see through genjutsu..
> Sasuke did state that after he activated his Sharingan and kept his Sharingan active throughout the duration until the Cursed Seal took control.


But that's not really what happened. He activated his Sharingan and than 2-3 pages later deduces that they are indeed illusions. It's not like he turned his Sharingan on an immediately knew they were illusions or at the very least nothing states such.



> And that was a subtle illusion where they were blatantly stated to be deceived into wearing themselves out by walking in circles.


Yes indeed that first illusion was, but we aren't talking about that one. We're talking about the second illusion and I think it's important to note that Sasuke was already aware that the brothers were Genjutsu users from their first illusion.



> No because you're well known for taking delight in arbitrary details after being proven wrong.


If it's arbitrary I doubt the author would have wasted a panel on it, but ether way you shouldn't have a hard time explaining it away then. So I asked again:

Why is Sasuke "!?" when he hits an illusionary Oboro, if he knew it was an illusion?

Basically what I circle in this panel:



I will not enterain any of your questions until I get a answer for this one, considering i've asked you about 5 times now, and you simply refuse to stop dancing around the question.



> If you're so adamant on talking mechanics, you can drop the vagueness.


There is no vagueness, i'm asking you, do you think Jutsu mechanics should be considered, yes or no?

And i've already explained my reasoning on why Gengetsu's Illusion is different than a normal illusion in this thread multiple times and I am explaining it again to you with the topic bellow.



> You're going to sit there and tell me mirages are real images. Here, I'll make you keep sitting there while it's my turn to lecture you on dictionary definitions:


You definition literally says they are images 

But honestly let's cut the BS Kai, the bottom line is most Genjutsu work by controlling the chakra in the target's brain, while the Clam's creates images through bending light with chakra. Do you not see the difference?


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 28, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Hidan



Gengetsu is possibly in danger here without intel, but I'd give him the benefit of the doubt any day; his attacks aren't gonna do much to Hidan, but the mirage Genjutsu is something Hidan will never figure out in a million years, and Jokey Boy will be sufficient to blow him limb from limb. Although I'd say there's a huge difference in their levels as shinobi, Gengetsu's (known) moveset just doesn't give him a lot of options to neutralize Hidan.

Mu, on the other hand, has it pretty easy; invisible stealth-killing seems like his go-to approach, and Hidan won't know what the fuck hit him. Even if Hidan survives the initial attempt, it's only gonna raise Mu's guard to the fact that he's dealing with an immortal; then superweighting or Jinton easily solves that problem.



> Konan



Gengetsu can use oil, which is Konan's natural weakness, although he won't have any way of knowing that immediately. Her ability to scatter in paper form makes her well-suited to locating the Mizukage through his mirage Genjutsu, but it may take her a while to figure out that ability, since she has no prior intel here. Jokey Boy incapacitates Gengetsu, although it may be enough to kill Konan if it catches her when it detonates (and without intel, there's a good chance of that). Another hard-fought but probable victory for Gengetsu against a generally weaker opponent.

Mu ices this bitch as soon as he decides to sweep with Jinton. He can counter her paper attacks by superweighting or petrifying them on contact.



> Kakuzu



Gengetsu can win this by attrition, although Kakuzu is smart enough to possibly figure out the mirage Genjutsu at some point. He's also close to impossible for Gengetsu to kill, so it comes down to betting everything on Jokey Boy being able to hold Kakuzu off to exhaustion.

Mu is likely gonna fail a stealth kill, but can easily make up for it with Jinton.



> Deidara



Gengetsu's mirage is just gonna frustrate Deidara until he either nukes the place with C3 or scatters a C4 cloud. Gengetsu loses this one.

Oonoki was able to fight Mu, but he knew what he was up against; Deidara has absolutely no intel here, so there's a good chance of an invisible stealth kill succeeding early in the fight. Deidara deserves some credit for being timely with his clone feints and substitutions, but Mu is a chakra sensor, so there's no fooling him with that.



> Kisame



Kisame can flood the battlefield and spam sharks all fucking day. Oh yeah, and sharks have a sense of smell that basically makes them like bloodhounds of the sea, so the Mizukage's mirage isn't saving him here. A guy who survived Hirudora can afford to take a few hits from Jokey Boy's detonations, too. Once Kisame finds Gengetsu, vastly superior physical strength and chakra stealing decide the match quickly. And did I mention the sharks? Gengetsu loses this one.

Without intel, Kisame really doesn't have a good counter for Mu's invisible stealth kill. Suirou might work, if Kisame can detect Mu's presence in time to execute it, but it won't save him from Jinton. Samehada could negate that, but then Mu can just superweight or petrify Samehada. Then Kisame's fucked.



> Sasori



Lack of intel is mutually problematic between Gengetsu and Sasori, although Sasori is very well-equipped to locate the Mizukage through his mirage (provided he is able to figure out that he must do that) thanks to Satetsu and the hundred puppets. Sasori isn't an easy kill for the Mizukage, either; Jokey Boy's the only thing even capable of damaging him, but Sasori's got plenty to throw at it and enough stamina to keep it up as long as he needs to. If he can trap it with Satetsu to stop its movements and keep it from detonating, that's game over. Gengetsu loses this one.

Conventional stealth attacks by Mu will fail. Jinton is extremely likely to succeed. However, Mu runs a high risk of getting poisoned the longer he waits to use it. Superweighting can be used to neutralize Satetsu and any of Sasori's puppets.



> Itachi



Itachi trolls them both horribly with Sharingan, sees through their signature Jutsu, and mindrapes them with his Genjutsu, so bad they won't even know what the fuck is going on until he humiliates their intelligence with his post-battle one-liners.



> Nagato



Nagato sees through their Jutsu with the Rinnegan, and casually dispatches them with Shinra Tensei.



> Obito



Obito sees through their Jutsu, fazes through their attacks with Kamui, mindfucks them, and snaps their necks.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 28, 2015)

Hidan - gets *dominated* by both of them.

Konan - *dominated!*

Kakuzu - *dominated!* 

Deidara - *dominated* by Muu. And i think Gengetsu has a chance thanks to his Jouki Boi.

Kisame - beats Gengetsu, *dominated* by Muu.

Sasori - *dominated!*

Itachi - beats Gengetsu. A fight with Muu is debatable due to Muu's Jinton, sensing and invisibility.

Nagato - *dominates!*

Obito - *dominates!*


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## Icegaze (Jul 28, 2015)

@niku how could gengetsu be in danger from Hidan ? He is a puddle or water Hidan is an academy student to him

Against muu he is a new born


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## Kai (Jul 28, 2015)

Turrin said:


> That happened after Naruto had already realized it was an illusion.


Naruto realized it was an illusion because it wasn't designed to be a subtle illusion.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, but I literally see no difference between Naruto throwing a Kunai at Itachi, the attack going through him, revealing he's made of crows, and than him reforming; and Sasuke throwing a Kunai, the attack going through Oboro, revealing he's made of black fog, and then him reforming.


Translation: I literally see no difference in Naruto recognizing an illusion with his ordinary eyes and Sasuke, who possesses a dojutsu stated to see through genjutsu, seeing through an illusion.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> But that's not really what happened. He activated his Sharingan and than 2-3 pages later deduces that they are indeed illusions. It's not like he turned his Sharingan on an immediately knew they were illusions or at the very least nothing states such.


Yes he immediately knew they were illusions because he
A) Activated his Sharingan, *stating* he will uncover the truth
B) *Kept* his Sharingan active throughout this duration (until CS interference)
C) Kabuto *supports* Sasuke's conclusion. Note Kabuto supports Sasuke as a secondary confirmation. Sasuke concluding Oboro's are illusions with his Sharingan was our primary confirmation.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Yes indeed that first illusion was, but we aren't talking about that one. We're talking about the second illusion and I think it's important to note that Sasuke was already aware that the brothers were Genjutsu users from their first illusion.


No, the Oboros could have been anything. Sasuke stated he will uncover the truth, activated his Sharingan, and confirmed the Oboros before them were indeed illusions.

Your debating tactics at this point are just an ugly mixture of filibustering and shifting the goal post after being disproved on the first direct instance in the manga of Sasuke seeing through genjutsu with his Sharingan.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> If it's arbitrary I doubt the author would have wasted a panel on it, but ether way you shouldn't have a hard time explaining it away then. So I asked again:
> 
> Why is Sasuke "!?" when he hits an illusionary Oboro, if he knew it was an illusion?
> 
> ...


What's your issue? Sasuke's expression shows that his physical engagement *confirms* what he sees. 

You've only answered my question with a fellow question from the start. That's why I've only responded to you with even better questions to ask. 

Why did Sasuke activate his Sharingan and _keep_ it active if he could only tell by engaging Oboro?
Why the hell did Kabuto save Sasuke in the same manner Sasuke saved Naruto despite *also* knowing they were illusions?

Where is there any indication Sasuke lied or was wrong when he said he would uncover the truth with his Sharingan?

Kabuto blatantly disagrees with your baseless stance when he supported what Sasuke saw.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> There is no vagueness, i'm asking you, do you think Jutsu mechanics should be considered, yes or no?
> 
> And i've already explained my reasoning on why Gengetsu's Illusion is different than a normal illusion in this thread multiple times and I am explaining it again to you with the topic bellow.


You've yet to provide any evidence as to how the clam's illusion is an exception to the fact that the Sharingan sees through illusions.

However, we have direct showing from early on in the manga of the Sharingan seeing through a battlefield genjutsu.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> You definition literally says they are images
> 
> But honestly let's cut the BS Kai, the bottom line is most Genjutsu work by controlling the chakra in the target's brain, while the Clam's creates images through bending light with chakra. Do you not see the difference?


A mirage is an illusory image Turrin  
You're trying to convince a decently intellectual community that Gengetsu's clam illusions are *real* when anyone who has finished the manga knows the only genjutsu that can be turned into reality is Izanagi 

Anyone who is fooled by the clam's mirages are caught in Gengetsu's genjutsu.


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2015)

@Kai

I'm sorry Kai, but I simply can't agree with someone who is trying to sell me on the idea that ["!!"] is being used to express confirmation, rather than shock. And if Sharingan saw through the illusion, Sasuke shouldn't need confirmation anyway.

To me the bottom line is, the panel you keep citing only proves that Sasuke eventually figured out that the Oboro brothers were using Genjutsu. It does not prove that Sharingan saw through the illusion, as Sasuke could have simply intellectually figured out that it was an illusion the same way Naruto figured out he was under Itachi's illusion, especially since Sasuke already knew the brothers were Genjutsu users. 

And I will also never agree that Oboro's Fog clones are subtle, while Itachi's crow clones were not, that just plain does not seem fair to me. 

As far as the rest goes, for me there is an obvious difference between controlling the chakra in someone's brain and controlling chakra to bend light. You may be able to argue with the terminology that I used, but you should be able to acknowledge the difference between these two types of Genjutsu, and if you can't I don't really see much reason to continue, because to me that would be intellectual dishonesty.


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## Kai (Jul 28, 2015)

Maybe you don't understand. Sasuke saw that it was genjutsu. His [!!] expression is a one of shock, as it confirms just as he expected, that the Oboros were using genjutsu. His attack also saved Naruto from being attacked by the hiding Oboros launching their attack simultaneously with the illusions. 

Futhermore, it's nonsense that Sasuke would figure out a genjutsu in a similar way to Naruto. Absolute nonsense. *Sasuke has a dojutsu that sees through genjutsu.* Naruto had to learn from Jiraiya how to deal with genjutsu. Those methods as were taught by Jiraiya have never once applied to Sasuke in this manga as he is gifted with being able to see past those techniques.

Lastly, I'm not sure where exactly you got that the images Gengetsu's claim produces are real. Cite a databook entry if you have to. Mirages are illusory images. Genjutsu are illusory techniques. We haven't seen a genjutsu become a real phenomenon with the exception of Izanagi, which was explicitly hyped to do so separate from all other illusions.


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2015)

Kai said:


> Maybe you don't understand. Sasuke saw that it was genjutsu. His [!!] expression is a one of shock, as it confirms just as he expected, that the Oboros were using genjutsu. His attack also saved Naruto from being attacked by the hiding Oboros launching their attack simultaneously with the illusions.


Your right, I don't understand why someone would react to confirmation through shock ["!!"].



> Futhermore, it's nonsense that Sasuke would figure out a genjutsu in a similar way to Naruto. Absolute nonsense. Sasuke has a dojutsu that sees through genjutsu. Naruto had to learn from Jiraiya how to deal with genjutsu. Those methods as were taught by Jiraiya have never once applied to Sasuke in this manga as he is gifted with being able to see past those techniques.


I don't see why having Sharingan, prevents Sasuke from figuring out something is Genjutsu through other means.



> Lastly, I'm not sure where exactly you got that the images Gengetsu's claim produces are real. Cite a databook entry if you have to. Mirages are illusory images. Genjutsu are illusory techniques. We haven't seen a genjutsu become a real phenomenon with the exception of Izanagi, which was explicitly hyped to do so separate from all other illusions.


From it's entry in DBIV:

Ones heart is thrown into confusion by steam generating endless duplicates.

_*A large oriental clam is summoned which gushes out a massive quantity of steam that covers the circumference of the entire region until exhaustion. Light is bent by a membrane of water particles, infinite false images are brought forth in-order to deceive the enemy's eyes, while the Jutsu user conceals his true self within the mirage*_. 

To comply with Nindaime Mizukage's commands, the shape of a giant clam materializes! After the Jutsu is put into operation, illusions appear everywhere with the purposes of concealment. Unique to other bunshin jutsu, attacks against the false images will not cause them to disappear.


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## Kai (Jul 28, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Your right, I don't understand why someone would react to confirmation through shock ["!!"].


Itachi.



Itachi: "!?"
Itachi: "I see, I was right indeed..."





			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> I don't see why having Sharingan, prevents Sasuke from figuring out something is Genjutsu through other means.


It's literally the first time in the manga Sasuke uses Sharingan to see through genjutsu.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> From it's entry in DBIV:
> 
> Ones heart is thrown into confusion by steam generating endless duplicates.
> 
> ...


>Infinite false images are brought forth
>False images

Yet still waiting for an exception to the rule against the Sharingan's ability to see through illusions.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 28, 2015)

> Unique to other bunshin jutsu, attacks against the false images will not cause them to disappear.



So that's the clam's big trick.


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2015)

Kai said:


> Itachi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Itachi and Sasuke were shocked by Kabuto's appearance. Not confirmation of his theory.

Sasuke saw through Kotetsu's Genjutsu right here, and he wasn't shocked by the confirmation of it:
[1]
[1]
[1]



> It's literally the first time in the manga Sasuke uses Sharingan to see through genjutsu.


So what, ether you see through it or not.



> Infinite false images are brought forth
> >False images
> 
> Yet still waiting for an exception to the rule against the Sharingan's ability to see through illusions.


And i'm still waiting for you to acknowledge the very clear difference between the Clam's Mirage and Genjutsu that controls the chakra in the user's brain. Once you finally stop dodging around admitting that, than we can get into why the Sharingan wouldn't work.


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## Icegaze (Jul 29, 2015)

interesting debate. 
turrin do you suggest the mirages are akin to kage bunshin and can cause harm?

because the entry you posted relates them to bunshin which are simply false images they can move and do things however cannot harm anyone

also bunshin is something ino with her eyes could see....i hope there is more to it than that.


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## Icegaze (Jul 29, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Gengetsu is possibly in danger here without intel, but I'd give him the benefit of the doubt any day; his attacks aren't gonna do much to Hidan, but the mirage Genjutsu is something Hidan will never figure out in a million years, and Jokey Boy will be sufficient to blow him limb from limb. Although I'd say there's a huge difference in their levels as shinobi, Gengetsu's (known) moveset just doesn't give him a lot of options to neutralize Hidan.
> 
> Mu, on the other hand, has it pretty easy; invisible stealth-killing seems like his go-to approach, and Hidan won't know what the fuck hit him. Even if Hidan survives the initial attempt, it's only gonna raise Mu's guard to the fact that he's dealing with an immortal; then superweighting or Jinton easily solves that problem.
> 
> ...



 against Muu do kisame sharks loose their sense of smell?


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