# Hirudora-how strong is it?



## oiety (Jul 10, 2017)

These characters take a direct blow from a launched Hirudora. None of them can dodge. Who survives, and with what damage?

SM Naruto.
Base War Arc Naruto.
Kisame merged with Samehada.
Tsunade with Byakugo activated.
SM Jiraiya.
Base Orochimaru.
Hydra Orochimaru.
Base Killer Bee.
Base AAA.
Base AAAA.
RnY A3.
RnY A4.
Base Hashirama.
Base EMS Madara.
Itachi turtled in Susano'o.
Sauce turtled in Kabuto fight Susano'o.
Gaara behind his strongest shield of sand.
V2 Bee.
V2 Naruto.
pre 571 KCM Naruto.


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## SwordSlayer99 (Jul 10, 2017)

oiety said:


> These characters take a direct blow from a launched Hirudora. None of them can dodge. Who survives, and with what damage?
> 
> SM Naruto.
> Base War Arc Naruto.
> ...


Everyone besides V1 A3 dies to Hirudora. Tsunade might live depending on how much of her body is hit by the jutsu. Gaara with a village amount of sand might be able to block it, but I kind of doubt it. People will bring up Kisame surviving Hirudora, however Gai didn't want to kill Kisame, he only wanted to interrogate him for info. Adding that with the fact that Kisame's clone was killed by Asa Kujaku and Hiudora >> Asa Kujaku there's no way Kisame would survive Hirudora if Gai wanted him dead. Hirudora made an explosion bigger than Turtle Island(Even from Naruto/Yamato's perspective on the other side of the island, Hirudora still dwarfs it) the shockwaves coming off it shook the island and destroyed some rock formations on it as well. No one here besides A3 is tanking a city level jutsu straight to the face without dying.


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## LostSelf (Jul 10, 2017)

All of them survive that fodder technique. It failed to kill Kisame.

And don't tell me Aoda wanted Kisame alive. There's no way Gai can punch slow. And yeah, i know i took Minato's order for Gai to keep moving as valid while letting out all the things that could prove Minato wrong. But here i won't take Aoda's words for granted.

So... yeah, it kills nobody.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sapherosth (Jul 10, 2017)

Wants to keep Kisame alive, but uses a turtle dwarfing Hirudora.....Right.....The Hirudora he used against Kisame was probably bigger than the one used against Madara using the size of the explosion as basis.


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## SwordSlayer99 (Jul 11, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> All of them survive that fodder technique. It failed to kill Kisame.
> 
> And don't tell me Aoda wanted Kisame alive. There's no way Gai can punch slow. And yeah, i know i took Minato's order for Gai to keep moving as valid while letting out all the things that could prove Minato wrong. But here i won't take Aoda's words for granted.
> 
> So... yeah, it kills nobody.


Hirudora is ranked as an A-rank jutsu, and it shook an entire island. Madara's Great Fire Annihilation is only a B-rank jutsu and it took 15 shinobi on panel using water walls to only stalemate it, they didn't even overpower it. 
Hirudora > Daikōdan > Madara's Great Fire Annihilation = 15 shinobi water jutsus at once. How could people like Base Naruto or SM Jiraiya tank Hirudora which overpowered Daikōdan which would overpower Madara's fire jutsu that took 15 people to stop...


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## Jad (Jul 11, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Wants to keep Kisame alive, but uses a turtle dwarfing Hirudora.....Right.....The Hirudora he used against Kisame was probably bigger than the one used against Madara using the size of the explosion as basis.


The blast was meant for the Sharks. Plus Kisame already stated MP could kill him after witnessing it twice, one of those times it killed him.

The blast was massive but only a testament to Gai's ability considering he pulled that off underwater with virtually little air to use.

Reactions: Like 1


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## FlamingRain (Jul 11, 2017)

Gai wouldn't have pointed out that he was going to throw out a "certain kill" technique if he was going to hold it back to avoid killing Kisame.

It's not like Gai had any way to gauge how much force would be required to incapacitate Kisame without killing the fish guy anyway.


Kisame survived, those other characters should survive (with the exception of base mode Naruto). Whether or not each of them would still be in fighting condition is another question entirely.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 11, 2017)

Strong enough that Kisame tanked it with little injury. However, that might be a testament to Kisame's durability.


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## Jad (Jul 11, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> Gai wouldn't have pointed out that he was going to throw out a "certain kill" technique if he was going to hold it back to avoid killing Kisame.
> 
> It's not like Gai had any way to gauge how much force would be required to incapacitate Kisame without killing the fish guy anyway.
> 
> ...


It was Gai warning Kisame. Gai only needs to Judge how much of the attacks power is needed to wipe the sharks. That's why he instantly stood over Kisame knowing he'd survive and didn't question him being alive (like he did with Madara against EE).

We also know Gai has some form of control over Hirudora's inception since the one he used on Madara's Sasuno is completely different in expansion to than one used on Kisame.

Kisame saying he'd die from MP and seeing Shouten Kisame already die is fact enough. DB substantiates Hirudora's lethality even further. It's hard to believe DB is not allowed for Gai as further evidence to the Manga's already clear evidence, when other users use NOTHING but the DB to prove a point.... It's double standards.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 11, 2017)

Jad said:


> It was Gai warning Kisame. Gai only needs to Judge how much of the attacks power is needed to wipe the sharks. That's why he instantly stood over Kisame knowing he'd survive and didn't question him being alive (like he did with Madara against EE).
> 
> We also know Gai has some form of control over Hirudora's inception since the one he used on Madara's Sasuno is completely different in expansion to than one used on Kisame.
> 
> Kisame saying he'd die from MP and seeing Shouten Kisame already die is fact enough. DB substantiates Hirudora's lethality even further. It's hard to believe DB is not allowed for Gai as further evidence to the Manga's already clear evidence, when other users use NOTHING but the DB to prove a point.... It's double standards.



The Hirudora Gai hit Kisame with had the largest blast radius we had seen, and thus should have exerted the most force. Whether or not Gai was thinking of the sharks is totally irrelevant because Hirudora hit Kisame point blank anyway.

Kisame simply said Asakujaku could kill. He didn't say it'd kill him in particular. It's the same as Orochimaru saying a hit from Tsunade could kill- apparently that didn't apply to Oro.

Pretty sure we talked about that before. I didn't think there was any relevant difference.

Other users =/= me, btw.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Android (Jul 11, 2017)

Gotta agree with @Sapherosth.
That was by far the strongest Hirudora ever used on panel.

OT: FRS or Kirin would've left no trace of Kisame. Hirudora is weaker than these 2 techs.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## hbcaptain (Jul 11, 2017)

SM Naruto - Horribly dies
Base War Arc Naruto.- Horribly dies
Kisame merged with Samehada - Dies Low diff, he only survived because Hirudora was weakened thanks to Daikoudan otherwise he would be fodderbitzed.
Tsunade with Byakugo activated - I think, giving her portrayl, she survives and fight again as if nothing happened.
SM Jiraiya - Horribly dies, the guy was already pierced by a mere chakra rods
Base Orochimaru - He survives thanks to his immortality.
Hydra Orochimaru- Survives Low diff, hydra tanks all the impact thanks to its regenerative power.
Base Killer Bee - Horribly dies, this guy is greatly overrated.
Base AAA - Horribly dies but with more difficulty than Bee since he is more durable with some margin.
Base AAAA- Dies Mid/High diff.
RnY A3 - Tan it with minor damage
RnY A4 - Dies
Base Hashirama - Dies or barely survives.
Base EMS Madara - Horribly dies.
Itachi turtled in Susano'o - Depends if its full form with Yata miror then he survives neg diff.
Sauce turtled in Kabuto fight Susano'o - Suvive with a part of Susano'o chartered.
Gaara behind his strongest shield of sand - Survive with part of his shield entirely atomized.
V2 Bee - Dies low diff
V2 Naruto - KN4 and above tanks, V1 isn't enough tho
pre 571 KCM Naruto - Dies low diff.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Informative 1 | Disagree 1


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## LostSelf (Jul 11, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> It's not like Gai had any way to gauge how much force would be required to incapacitate Kisame without killing the fish guy anyway.



This is a magical manga. If he wanted to kill Kisame, he would've done it instead of being above incapacitated wasting more time in gates.

That's the thing. People go too deep in real life reasoning that contradicts most of the time the author's intentions.

Gai was told to bring Kisame alive, he brought Kisame alive.

Also, Kisame was already killed by Asa Kujaku. It's very likely he was refering to himself.


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## Trojan (Jul 11, 2017)

Strong enough to not kill Kisame.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 11, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> This is a magical manga. If he wanted to kill Kisame, he would've done it instead of being above incapacitated wasting more time in gates.
> 
> That's the thing. People go too deep in real life reasoning that contradicts most of the time the author's intentions.
> 
> Gai was told to bring Kisame alive, he brought Kisame alive.



Characters still need to know enough about each other to wind up not killing them. If it turned out Hirudora didn't kill Kisame that would probably be fine by Gai, but it doesn't change the fact that saying you're about to use a "certain kill" technique would indicate killing intent.

Remember how it's been repeatedly stated to be easier to kill than to capture, and how Suigetsu figured they'd need to go at Bee with killing intent _in order to capture Bee_?

Same could apply here.


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## LostSelf (Jul 11, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> Characters still need to know enough about each other to wind up not killing them. If it turned out Hirudora didn't kill Kisame that would probably be fine by Gai, but it doesn't change the fact that saying you're about to use a "certain kill" technique would indicate killing intent.
> 
> Remember how it's been repeatedly stated to be easier to kill than to capture, and how Suigetsu figured they'd need to go at Bee with killing intent _in order to capture Bee_?
> 
> Same could apply here.



But the difference here is that Gai already tested Kisame's durability with Asa Kujaku. And i understand Suigetsu's comment. I guess Asuma decided the same. The difference here is that Kisame was under Gai's control. Suigetsu knew they couldn't take down Bee without killing him (or thought, as Sasuke proved him wrong) and Asuma already knew Hidan and Kakuzu were stronger than him.

Never Gai felt desperate, and never even mentioned he would have to kill him because he's being too troublesome. Like Suigetsu and Asuma said.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 11, 2017)

All Gai would know about Asakujaku vs Kisame is that it killed a quasi-Kisame. How could he estimate what Hirudora would do based on that?

Gai doesn't need to mention it because he already said he'd throw out a "certain kill" technique. What else is there really to say?


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## LostSelf (Jul 11, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> All Gai would know about Asakujaku vs Kisame is that it killed a quasi-Kisame. How could he estimate what Hirudora would do based on that?
> 
> Gai doesn't need to mention it because he already said he'd throw out a "certain kill" technique. What else is there really to say?



Quasi Kisame still was holding Kisame's physical capabilities, endurance and durability while only giving him 30% of chakra.

Like i said, it's a manga. Not everyhing has to make sense. If Asa Kujaku with killing intent downed Kisame, who come Hirudora will fail to kill him and Gai will stay so normal about it?

If someone's going to survive a one-hit kill technique with the user trying to kill him, a reaction would follow. And i doubt Kishimoto is just going to make Kisame survive a one-hit kill and leave it out considering he still was going to make Kisame go out in a badass way that made Gai admire him.

Yet, there was no comment, no surprise. Gai blasted him off along with his sharks and ordered him to not move. When Kisame tried, he knocked him out. Kisame was on purpose, left in a state where he couldn't do much following that blasts as was shown.

That's what was shown. In fact, we got another glimpse on Hirudora that clearly shows Gai was holding back. Not only it managed to push back a considerable distance a being strong enough to body slam Perfect Susano'o and erase it completely, but it also managed to outpace Madara's striking speed when Gai was out of shape.

Kisame is not surviving a blast so powerful to push back a Juubi Jin, and won't attack in tandem against something that goes so fast it interrupts Madara's faster striking speed).


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 11, 2017)

Strong enough not get pierced through by Juubidara's Gudoudama and stagger Madara in his V3 Susano'o.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 11, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Quasi Kisame still was holding Kisame's physical capabilities, endurance and durability while only giving him 30% of chakra.
> 
> Like i said, it's a manga. Not everyhing has to make sense. If Asa Kujaku with killing intent downed Kisame, who come Hirudora will fail to kill him and Gai will stay so normal about it?
> 
> ...



We've been over this before. Quasi-Kisame did not have the same stats as the real Kisame. It's 30% of Kisame's Chakra being used to being Mukade's stats clos_er_ to Kisame's. It was explicitly stated that the clones were limited in strength (stats) _and_ the Jutsu they use. Regardless, if Asakujaku could truly kill Kisame and Gai was going to use a Hirudora that wouldn't, then Hirudora _would not_ blow Asakujaku out of the water. What was Gai talking about then?

We also don't know whether there was a surprised reaction from Gai or not, because we weren't immediately shown Gai's face. Yet you're still attempting to ask me to buy something you apparently admit doesn't make sense.

There's no _good_ reason to think that a smaller (aka weaker) Hirudora erased Susano'o either. Madara not returning to the fight for a while doesn't mean anything because had he wanted to he could have returned even if he had been completely obliterated, meaning there is no indication that Madara or Susano'o were injured/damaged.

Gai also couldn't seriously "push back" a Jubi Jinchuriki. He made it apparent that the 7th gate wouldn't enable him to repel those 5 Bijudama while Kurama Chakra Mode Naruto managed to do it fine, with KCM being less formidable than Biju Sage Mode and Biju Sage Mode being compared to Hashirama who admitted that uncontrolled Jubi Jinchuriki Obito was even stronger. Madara moved himself.


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## Bonly (Jul 11, 2017)

Base Naruto,Base Madara and Base B should die. Everyone else should live


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## Troyse22 (Jul 11, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> All of them survive that fodder technique. It failed to kill Kisame.
> 
> And don't tell me Aoda wanted Kisame alive. There's no way Gai can punch slow. And yeah, i know i took Minato's order for Gai to keep moving as valid while letting out all the things that could prove Minato wrong. But here i won't take Aoda's words for granted.
> 
> So... yeah, it kills nobody.




That's a testament to Kisames durability, not a showing that Hirudora is weak.

OT: It kills most besides Hashi, A3, Oro, Itachi with Susanoo, Sasuke with Susanoo and V2 Bee.

Its certainly survivable, it's the strongest Taijutsu tech in the entire manga besides 8th gate techs. 

High durability Shinobi can live it. Kisame would've either recovered had he had Samehada or blocked the majority of the impact with Samehada.

In fact Kisame didn't appear totally out of the fight yet, considering Gai felt the need to stay in the 7th gate and punch him hard enough to cough up blood


Oro can oral rebirth

Hashi is Hashi

Susanoo is Susanoo

V2 cloak is a V2 cloak.

Hirudora shouldn't be underrated just because Gai is underrated.


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## LostSelf (Jul 12, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> We've been over this before. Quasi-Kisame did not have the same stats as the real Kisame. It's 30% of Kisame's Chakra being used to being Mukade's stats clos_er_ to Kisame's. It was explicitly stated that the clones were limited in strength (stats) _and_ the Jutsu they use. Regardless, if Asakujaku could truly kill Kisame and Gai was going to use a Hirudora that wouldn't, then Hirudora _would not_ blow Asakujaku out of the water. What was Gai talking about then?
> 
> We also don't know whether there was a surprised reaction from Gai or not, because we weren't immediately shown Gai's face. Yet you're still attempting to ask me to buy something you apparently admit doesn't make sense.
> 
> ...



The clones showed the very same physical capabilities as their original. It's very evident when you see Kisame reacting perfectly to base Gai. Or are you going to tell me Gai had a lot of troubles keeping up with the third fraction of a 4 in speed? Let alone a (less than a) third fraction 4 in speed with his chakra divided a lot more by water clones could instantly trap two Taijutsu masters (with equal speed to him) when the gap between Zabuza and Naruto and Sasuke was a lot bigger and he was very weakened with a water clone.

This doesn't make any sense. If it was Kisame and Itachi with 30% of their speed, Kakashi and Gai would've run through them easily. They just had 30% of chakra, nothing more. Limited in strength doesn't mean physical strength. They are limited in their performance because obviously less chakra = Less performance.

And considering Kisame would'veb een surviving a "one-hit kill" attack that Kishimoto bothered to hype with Yamato, i'm sure he would've made evident to show it as a feat. But i don't think it was necessary because the point of this was clear beforehand: Bring Kisame alive.

And i'm not taling about breaking Susano'o. And yes, Juudara was pushed back by Hirudora. After it detonates, he's pushed several meters back against his will. The punch was potent enough to push him. You can say Madara decided to just jump back in their CqC exchange.

But Madara deciding to move back as if we was skating in ice because he chose to doesn't seem believable.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## FlamingRain (Jul 12, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> The clones showed the very same physical capabilities as their original. It's very evident when you see Kisame reacting perfectly to base Gai. Or are you going to tell me Gai had a lot of troubles keeping up with the third fraction of a 4 in speed? Let alone a (less than a) third fraction 4 in speed with his chakra divided a lot more by water clones could instantly trap two Taijutsu masters (with equal speed to him) when the gap between Zabuza and Naruto and Sasuke was a lot bigger and he was very weakened with a water clone.
> 
> This doesn't make any sense. If it was Kisame and Itachi with 30% of their speed, Kakashi and Gai would've run through them easily. They just had 30% of chakra, nothing more. Limited in strength doesn't mean physical strength. They are limited in their performance because obviously less chakra = Less performance.
> 
> ...



The clone being able to keep up with Gai doesn't mean it had the same stats as the original Kisame.

Don't tell me "not everything has to make sense" and then turn around to say "but that doesn't make any sense" (and then go repeat what you said doesn't have to make sense), but nobody is saying Kisame was at 30% of his normal speed. What I'm saying is that 30% of Kisame's Chakra was used to bring Mukade's stats closer to Kisame's own, and we've seen a depleted Kisame become frail. The original Kisame would logically be more physically formidable than quasi-Kisame Mukade. And yes "limited in strength" does refer to their physical traits because Kisame mentioned their Jutsu ability _separately_. He wasn't repeating himself in the exact same sentence.

There doesn't need to be an on panel remark for it to be a feat, though that statement by Yamato could be interpreted as one. Surprised reactions don't need to last more than a second. How long was Bee surprised that Kisame survived a Lariat? He didn't say a thing about it.

You said "erase Susano'o", though.

You didn't counter anything I said about why Hirudora couldn't have realistically pushed Madara back. "Yes huh!" isn't a rebuttal.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 12, 2017)

It pierced through hundreds of meters of Daikodan and still detonated with full power. Even without detonating the physical force impacting the opponent at that speed alone would severely injure most shinobi. It's a magical sludge hammer with a ridiculous boom.

Upon detonation the technique would kill most people on the list, as would the physical force of Daikodan itself, a vastly inferior canon.

A3, Tsunade, V2 Naruto & Bee, and EMS Susano Sasuke are the only ones I'd wager have a chance at surviving.

Hirudora has been, and will always be vastly underrated on these forums due to posters' inability to accept Kisame's all-manga smash durability.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## Sapherosth (Jul 13, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> It pierced through hundreds of meters of Daikodan and still detonated with full power. Even without detonating the physical force impacting the opponent at that speed alone would severely injure most shinobi. It's a magical sludge hammer with a ridiculous boom.
> 
> Upon detonation the technique would kill most people on the list, as would the physical force of Daikodan itself, a vastly inferior canon.
> 
> ...





Lmao. fuck outta here if you think V2 Naruto or Bee has durability that surpasses a V4 Susano.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 13, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Lmao. fuck outta here if you think V2 Naruto or Bee has durability that surpasses a V4 Susano.


Take it easy dumbledor

V2 Naruto survived Chibaku Tensei, a technique that busted a mountain range and several miles of terrain under the mountains and sucked them above the clouds - without any injuries.

Itachi's Susano was vaporized by Kirin, a technique that wouldn't even dent a single mountain.

Notice I said *EMS Sasuke *had a chance, because his Susano isn't garbage


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## LostSelf (Jul 13, 2017)

Before replying, please go to the last quote of the post and see what i posted there. (To avoid writting and such when we could be going to an agreement to disagreement imo)



FlamingRain said:


> The clone being able to keep up with Gai doesn't mean it had the same stats as the original Kisame.
> 
> Don't tell me "not everything has to make sense" and then turn around to say "but that doesn't make any sense" (and then go repeat what you said doesn't have to make sense), but nobody is saying Kisame was at 30% of his normal speed. What I'm saying is that 30% of Kisame's Chakra was used to bring Mukade's stats closer to Kisame's own, and we've seen a depleted Kisame become frail. The original Kisame would logically be more physically formidable than quasi-Kisame Mukade. And yes "limited in strength" does refer to their physical traits because Kisame mentioned their Jutsu ability _separately_. He wasn't repeating himself in the exact same sentence.



Except that Kisame didn't look frail and depleted. You're talking about a Kisame with little to no chakra with one Kisame with enough chakra to still surprise Neji. You don't need to be a chakra monster to be a physical beast and endurance has nothing to do with chakra either.

And you can't compare the assumption you're making with Gai not being able to bring Kisame alive with Kisame keeping up. Kisame mentioned his strength also, why would he add strength to speed, durability and etc? 



FlamingRain said:


> There doesn't need to be an on panel remark for it to be a feat, though that statement by Yamato could be interpreted as one. Surprised reactions don't need to last more than a second. How long was Bee surprised that Kisame survived a Lariat? He didn't say a thing about it.



He said it to himself. Gai shouldn't tell Kisame he's a monster for surviving his strongest blast. On top of that, when has Kishimoto hyped an attack to be one hit kill and say nothing when the character survives it? It's too convenient that he decided just to do it here, in the episode where Gai was told to bring him alive, Gai brought Kisame alive and when more potent versions of Hirudora were shown.

Not to mention that Kisame never got the full force of the blast.



FlamingRain said:


> You said "erase Susano'o", though.





FlamingRain said:


> You didn't counter anything I said about why Hirudora couldn't have realistically pushed Madara back. "Yes huh!" isn't a rebuttal.



I didn't. You didn't read what i said above and i guess you're mixing it here. I said Hirudora pushed back someone strong enough to body slam Perfect Susano'o and shatter it. Wich was Juubito who grabbed both, Kurama Avatar and PS and with his flight speed crashed them into the floor, erasing both. In this case, Madara, who should have the same physical strength or more.

And i hope you're not serious with the last part. 

When Gai uses Hirudora and Madara counters, the explosion sent Juudara dashing several meters back. 



And considering the position he's in, he's trying to overcome the force of a cut down explosion that didn't even got to hit him (Kisame wasn't even hit directly as it exploded on his face and was very, very small in comparison to the initial one).

INB4 Madara also decided to dash back because he loves skating. If you think that (Imo i wouldn't be surprised if others think that) just answer this first, to agree to disagree and save us both time. I don't think i will debate the veracity of a _clear_ panel just because "people don't think Gai can be that strong so there should be some kind of ilogical behavior from Madara that answers this panel like he decided to dash like that for the lulz, or he's acting for an action movie and acted all his physical and facial expressions the entire fight. Anything above Gai legitimately pushing him back like the panel is directly showing.".


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## FlamingRain (Jul 13, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> I didn't. You didn't read what i said above and i guess you're mixing it here. I said Hirudora pushed back someone strong enough to body slam Perfect Susano'o and shatter it. Wich was Juubito who grabbed both, Kurama Avatar and PS and with his flight speed crashed them into the floor, erasing both. In this case, Madara, who should have the same physical strength or more.
> 
> And i hope you're not serious with the last part.
> 
> ...



Ohhhhhhh. Ok.

I am serious with the next part, _given that a first time Kurama avatar that wasn't utilizing Sage Chakra could do what 7th gate Gai could not as admitted by Gai himself._

It is not complicated. JJ > Hashirama > Biju Mode > Gai. How could Hirudora push Madara when Gai was hit prior to it detonating?


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## Troyse22 (Jul 13, 2017)

C'mon @Jad let's hear it


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## LostSelf (Jul 13, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> I am serious with the next part, _given that a first time Kurama avatar that wasn't utilizing Sage Chakra could do what 7th gate Gai could not as admitted by Gai himself._
> 
> It is not complicated. JJ > Hashirama > Biju Mode > Gai. How could Hirudora push Madara when Gai was hit prior to it detonating?



I didn't understand the first paragraph. I mean, don't know what you meant. Do you mean when the Bijuus were surrounding them? Imo Hirudora wouldn't have achieved much there. If he used it, the Bijuudamas would've exploded and Gai and Kakashi would've died either way. 

Also, Hirudora exploded. Just that it didn't explode fully. 

I've always said Hirudora does initial damage also. Wich is why the force of the clash made Madara drop his fan not even touching him directly. 

Also, Hashirama being > Gai doesn't mean Hirudora wouldn't ragdoll him. It ragdolled Susano'o, who was freeing himself from Gaara's grip and a version of Susano'o almost as powerful as the one that was causing earthquakes just killing Zetsus.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 13, 2017)

Naruto slammed into the Bijudamas and they didn't explode. Why would Hirudora make them do that instead of blowing them away?

Hashirama's strongest Mokuton constructs couldn't be ragdolled by Gai. Those are included in Hashirama's power, so if Obito is even stronger than that, then...


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 13, 2017)

Pretty much all of the characters listed on this list have exceptional durability, resiliency, or some combination of the two. Just because Hirudora is stated to be a certain one-hit kill technique doesn't mean it will literally one-shot everyone especially when we have seen that it was incapable of such against Kisame: although he was enhanced by Killer B and Gyuki's chakras. With that said, I think they can all survive it although what condition they will be in afterwards is anyone's guess. I include base Naruto in that statement too, because he is still capable of utilizing V1 chakra cloaks in base. The same ones he gave the alliance, which protected them from Tenpenchii.


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## Jad (Jul 13, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Logic dictates that this would destroy any opponent, he doesn't specify himself, merely any opponent Gai might fight.
> 
> So either
> 
> ...



@Isaiah13000
@FlamingRain
Kisame is his opponent though. So he was also subject to that statement. Kisame and anyone around his durability would die. And I think Kisame is a beast of a tank than most on the list.



Why do you guys choose to ignore several statements made by the Manga and DB, when I've seen people like yourselves who've agreed to or used single line statements as the only evidence. It's like with Gai, I have to get several panels, statements, interviews, and video clips from Kishomoto just to prove a point, yet if it's anyother character you're allowed half a statement barely worded as proof. This is double standards.

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## Troyse22 (Jul 13, 2017)

Jad said:


> @Isaiah13000
> @FlamingRain
> Kisame is his opponent though. So he was also subject to that statement. Kisame and anyone around his durability would die. And I think Kisame is a beast of a tank than most on the list.
> 
> ...



Because saying "it destroys ones opponent" and "it can absorb chakra and grow stronger in proportion" are 2 very different thing, one counters techs, the other implies it can one shot anyone in the Narutoverse if you take it literally. 

C'mon now man you gotta chill.


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## Jad (Jul 13, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Because saying "it destroys ones opponent" and "it can absorb chakra and grow stronger in proportion" are 2 very different thing, one counters techs, the other implies it can one shot anyone in the Narutoverse if you take it literally.
> 
> C'mon now man you gotta chill.


It can kill anyone in the Narutoverse, if they are around Kisame level. I never said it'd kill anyone higher, Kisame is speaking from his experience.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 13, 2017)

Jad said:


> @Isaiah13000
> @FlamingRain
> Kisame is his opponent though. So he was also subject to that statement. Kisame and anyone around his durability would die. And I think Kisame is a beast of a tank than most on the list.
> 
> ...


 First off, I don't think any of that is true. Second, Kisame isn't stating that it could kill him specifically, he's just saying in general. The fact that Kisame himself also survived a more powerful technique should indicate that he didn't mean himself either. According to the Viz (I can provide scans), Aoba nor Motoi told Guy to keep Kisame alive, in fact, they told him to take him down to get the scroll back. Guy also went out of his way to call Hirudora his "single-blow" move, talking about how Asa Kujaku pales in comparison to it. That isn't what you say when you're about to hold back against someone. Furthermore, Jin no Sho describes what remains as being out of the user's control, suggesting it's power may not be able to be regulated.
"That single blow is like the roar of a ferocious tiger! A true fist of air pressure that is concentrated into a single point faces towards the enemy. Furthermore, instantly after the explosion, scattered forests are blown away while the earth is gouged out. Nobody can escape this secondary shock. *The remnants that are standing are even beyond control. Same as for the target, only the blue perspiration that is transformed into mist remains…!!*" -


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## Troyse22 (Jul 13, 2017)

How come Madara saying if he took multiple Sekizo steps it would kill him, but survived Night Guy, we invalidate his statement and assume he was overestimating Sekizo or underestimating himself, but can't do the same with Kisame? Should we take Madara's statement seriously?

Hirudora>MP and Kisame survived the superior attack. Kisame was either incorrect on his assessment, or was wildly overestimating MP, OR he didn't mean destroy literally. 

MP isn't killing anyone reasonably durable like Kisame, who has rather impressive showings in the durability department.

@Jad I know you're better than this, i've seen you debate cmon now man.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Troyse22 (Jul 13, 2017)

Also, I generally consider Kisame and Minato in the same tier, along with people like Pein, Itachi, Nagato, Obito etc etc, i'm willing to bet Kisame is the most durable out of these besides Nagato who isn't far behind Kisame in terms of durability.

Not everyone in the same tier are the same durability, if we're saying it can 1 shot anyone around Kisame's level, we're talking about his durability levels right?

So we're talking about MP one shotting shit like V2 Sasuke's Susanoo, V2 Raikage, Nagato, Itachi's V4 etc etc.

Kisame's statement regarding MP is invalidated by his own feats, get over it.


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## Jad (Jul 13, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> First off, I don't think any of that is true. Second, Kisame isn't stating that it could kill him specifically, he's just saying in general. The fact that Kisame himself also survived a more powerful technique should indicate that he didn't mean himself either. According to the Viz (I can provide scans), Aoba nor Motoi told Guy to keep Kisame alive, in fact, they told him to take him down to get the scroll back. Guy also went out of his way to call Hirudora his "single-blow" move, talking about how Asa Kujaku pales in comparison to it. That isn't what you say when you're about to hold back against someone. Furthermore, Jin no Sho describes what remains as being out of the user's control, suggesting it's power may not be able to be regulated.
> "That single blow is like the roar of a ferocious tiger! A true fist of air pressure that is concentrated into a single point faces towards the enemy. Furthermore, instantly after the explosion, scattered forests are blown away while the earth is gouged out. Nobody can escape this secondary shock. *The remnants that are standing are even beyond control. Same as for the target, only the blue perspiration that is transformed into mist remains…!!*" -


Do you not see the irony of you bolding text to use as proof, when it says literally "nothing remains" but Gai? This is a description of Gai using the technique at full power.

Kisame IS an opponent though. If you're gonna use words to prove me wrong, than its only fair you take the words I use as well. What is Kisame if not Gai's opponent? Kisame implies ALL of Gai's opponents get destroyed (well at least in context with Kisame). It's not like he said "...except me".


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 14, 2017)

Jad said:


> Do you not see the irony of you bolding text to use as proof, when it says literally "nothing remains" but Gai? This is a description of Gai using the technique at full power.


 Except the same text seems to imply it's power cannot be regulated? 



> Kisame IS an opponent though. If you're gonna use words to prove me wrong, than its only fair you take the words I use as well. What is Kisame if not Gai's opponent? Kisame implies ALL of Gai's opponents get destroyed (well at least in context with Kisame). It's not like he said "...except me".


I do, and what Kisame said was contradicted when he survived an even stronger technique. There was literally no indication that Guy was going to hold back at all in that scene. You're just saying as much because Kisame survived a "single-blow" technique even though other things that have been stated to be a "certain kill" have not actually been such for whatever reason.


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## Jad (Jul 14, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Except the same text seems to imply it's power cannot be regulated?
> 
> I do, and what Kisame said was contradicted when he survived an even stronger technique. There was literally no indication that Guy was going to hold back at all in that scene. You're just saying as much because Kisame survived a "single-blow" technique even though other things that have been stated to be a "certain kill" have not actually been such for whatever reason.


You're doing it again. You are literally using worded text to prove your point that Hirudora power cannot be controlled using a DB statement, yet ignoring the plethora of statements stating Hirudora and MP can kill Kisame. That's the irony of the situation.

"*The remnants that are standing are even beyond control. Same as for the target," ... *like I said is:

A. Is referring to a full power Hirudora
B. The target is killed, because they've lost control in the explosion(?)
C. Simply the remnants of the blast cease to exist
D. They opponent lost control because there dead (?)

I say these Because it LITERALLY says nothing remains but Gai in the same line. You can't pick and choose words from the DB, and not read the entire statement for a FULL CONTEXT.

That being said I never stated Gai could control Hirudora once it's fired. Nowhere in that piece says the inception/creation of Hirudora cannot be controlled by lowering the speed of a super fast punch. In fact Hirudora HAD to have been weaker underwater to begin with because there is virtually no air underwater to compress. Gai saying my move is a single blow techqniue is just warning. Plus Hirudora was used a chapter AFTER the statement, so it's a little build up hype on Kishi's part.

Hell, Gai MUST have had some form of control as his Hirudora started out small, grew large than condensed in size again against Madara's Sasuno.



You cannot escape english language

1. Kisame IS Gai's OPPONENT
2. Kisame chooses the word OPPONENT knowing very well he is one based on his situation when he marvels at MP power
3. Kisame = Opponent = Destroyed by MP

Kisame didn't say how great MP was from the stands watching two men fight, he stated it AS the opponent.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 15, 2017)

Jad said:


> You're doing it again. You are literally using worded text to prove your point that Hirudora power cannot be controlled using a DB statement, yet ignoring the plethora of statements stating Hirudora and MP can kill Kisame. That's the irony of the situation.


 We've literally seen that it can't though. I value both hype and feats, hype a bit more, but I'm not going to listen to it saying that it can one-shot people when it's obviously referring to ordinary people and not people with exceptional durability or resiliency: since it literally did not do that.


> "*The remnants that are standing are even beyond control. Same as for the target," ... *like I said is:
> 
> A. Is referring to a full power Hirudora
> B. The target is killed, because they've lost control in the explosion(?)
> ...


  I'm not picking and choosing anything, you're the one making things up. Talking about Hirudora having different levels of power and Guy being able to manipulate it when nothing suggests such anywhere at all.


> That being said I never stated Gai could control Hirudora once it's fired. Nowhere in that piece says the inception/creation of Hirudora cannot be controlled by lowering the speed of a super fast punch. In fact Hirudora HAD to have been weaker underwater to begin with because there is virtually no air underwater to compress. Gai saying my move is a single blow techqniue is just warning. Plus Hirudora was used a chapter AFTER the statement, so it's a little build up hype on Kishi's part.


 So then you're speculating, and sure, maybe it was, but to what extent? We don't know, which means even more speculation: which gets nowhere.


> Hell, Gai MUST have had some form of control as his Hirudora started out small, grew large than condensed in size again against Madara's Sasuno.


 What? How does Hirudora doing the exact same thing it did against the Great Shark Bullet Technique mean Guy had control over it?


> You cannot escape english language
> 
> 1. Kisame IS Gai's OPPONENT
> 2. Kisame chooses the word OPPONENT knowing very well he is one based on his situation when he marvels at MP power
> ...


At this point, I've lost interest in this conversation. Kisame didn't say he'd be destroyed or killed by said technique, he said one's opponent, he meant in general, not himself. Characters in this series have no problem pointing out specifically if they were going to be killed by something. Kisame didn't look concerned nor fearful when he made said statement. The fact that he survived Hirudora, which there is absolutely no proof that Guy held back nor that he is capable of controlling it's power when using it on Kisame should cement that. You're free to believe what you want, but I no longer have interest in this discussion. We'll have to agree to disagree here.

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