# MS Itachi vs MS Obito



## Parallaxis (Dec 5, 2016)

*Location *Killer Bee vs Kisame
*Distance *50m
*Intel *Manga for Obito, Full for Itachi (assume he gathered info before attacking and prepared before                                                         ambushing him)
*Mindset *IC
*Restrictions *None

Itachi is healthy.
My opinion :

*Spoiler*: __ 



60/40, Itachi can likely pull off a high extreme diff.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 5, 2016)

Here's my reasoning on why Itachi takes this 60/100 times.


*Spoiler*: __ 




Obito needs to turn solid to attack. With full knowledge for Itachi, as soon as he gets close to warp, Susanoo fist comes out and crushes him alive. And yes, Susanoo fist is fast. It grabbed Killer B and KCM Naruto before Nagato could fire a chakra cannon at point blank range.

Will expand on this if need be.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 5, 2016)

Itachi loses low-mid diff via kamui

Tsukuyomi gets countered by obitos ms, their isn't really much of an argument here, this genjutsu was broken by sasuke with much inferior eyes to tobi. Any form of genjutsu gets counter by obitos ms.

Izanami is his only chance, yet sadely its a non factor. Itachi needs to get into physical contact with tobi, this being literally impossible due kamui  sending him to the boxland or by obito simply going intangible and burning itachi alive with a bakafu ranbu. Also it sounds kind of stupid IMO for itachi to try and use izanami when obito will only be tangible for a small moment, wouldn't he well... try to kill him instead of trying to repeat a loop. Let's also not forget that obito has knowledge on izanami, he would be so hasty to just rush in without thinking, especially since he already has caution of itachi.

Susanoo is again a non factor. His Susanoo activates fast, but physically it isn't that fast especially against a sharingan user that can easily see the hand coming before it comes. Toskua blade, again a non factor as obito could simply see before it comes and he also has speed feats to suggest otherwise. Yata mirror, obito phases through it , its not like he has anything for itachi to block anyways.

Amaterasu gets countered by kamui as per canon. Obito didn't use izanagi to counter ama and here's why: Izanagi has to be activated prior( as seen in the madara vs hashi fight and the danzo vs sasuke fight) to the event that one was is trying change. This was impossible because, amaterasu hit obito by suprise, making it impossible for him to prep it prior to obito activating it.

In CQC,lets move on.

Explosive clones get countered by obitos regen due to senju cells.

This is the end result in this matchup.

1. Itachi getting warped to the kamui realm. It doesn't matter if he has knowledge, if he has no means of reacting or countering kamui which is  emense speed and space time jutsu to able to do such. Knowing something=\= Being able to counter something.

2. Getting completely toasted by bakafu ranbu

Reactions: Like 4


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## Drake (Dec 5, 2016)

Depends on how fast Kamui is... I would assume that it isn't fast enough to warp a speedy ninja like Itachi, especially since Obito has stated that he fears Itachi's abilities on multiple occasions. It probably isn't as simple as Obito just warping Itachi away as soon as the fight starts, and Obito will most likely need a good opening.

I could see Obito warping away a clone and then having it blow up in his face or something to that effect giving Itachi the win, but I would assume that Obito wouldn't attack and just try to outlast Itachi and win that way. It would be far too dangerous for Obito to go on the offensive in this fight because any time he turns tangible he is prone to being killed by Totsuka, Yasaka Beads, or Amaterasu... Obito himself, on the other hand, can't really do much to Itachi, especially if Itachi knows how his Kamui works.

There is also the Izanagi argument which is a possible win for Itachi, but I doubt it would be easy for Itachi to manipulate Obito when Kamui can finish Itachi at the slightest mistake.

I would say this could go either way, a high-difficulty win for whoever comes out on top.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 5, 2016)

Drake said:


> Depends on how fast Kamui is... I would assume that it isn't fast enough to warp a speedy ninja like Itachi,


*cough* *cough* Minato *cough*


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## Drake (Dec 5, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> *cough* *cough* Minato *cough*



Not exactly sure what you are referring to but if I recall correctly Obito wasn't fast enough to warp Minato even when Minato had no knowledge of Kamui.


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 5, 2016)

Don't see how itachi wins

Obito low to mid diff's
Finding weakness does not mean you automatically win
Itachis core fighting style Genjutsu is useless in sharingan fight  but obito has notably better feats by controlling full kurama and perfect jinchuriki
Itachi can do nothing about  intangibility nor has any jutsu that can troll for 5 minutes

Superior clone user like naruto could do nothing so itachis bunshins are not going to be a problem  here and kakashi saw through the explosive bunshins and alsoalso obito destroyed narutos clone in the real relam so obito won't have any problem and he  had enough reflexes and awareness to phase through gated gai when the first arrived  and repeated similar feats against kakashi kcm naruto and gai.
Obito can also use katon bakufu runbu or giant shurikens to force itachi to use sussanol come underground  and take itachi to boxland
Amaterasu gets wrapped if it hits though in a scenario tho its hard considering when obito is on guard

And there is izanagi in worst case scenario tho its hard for itachi to set its counterpart considering he needs physical contact to do that

While obito can also dance around and outlast itachi thanks to his monstrous stamina that he displayed during war

You need correct tools and ways to beat the clown like god tier reflexes jutsu like ftg and all like minato said itachi is not one of them.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Dec 5, 2016)

Drake said:


> Not exactly sure what you are referring to but if I recall correctly Obito wasn't fast enough to warp Minato even when Minato had no knowledge of Kamui.


Minato was a spilit second faster hence, how he countered kamui. I think its safe to say Itachi<<<Minato in terms of speed and reflexes/reactions, so its safe to say itachi most likely wouldn't be too "fast" for kamui to work on him


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## Parallaxis (Dec 5, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Itachi loses low-mid diff via kamui
> 
> Tsukuyomi gets countered by obitos ms, their isn't really much of an argument here, this genjutsu was broken by sasuke with much inferior eyes to tobi. Any form of genjutsu gets counter by obitos ms.
> 
> ...


Obito has to physically get close and hold Itachi to warp him away. If this happens, he gets grabbed by Susanoo fist which saved Naruto and Killer B BEFORE NAGATO could fire a chakra cannon at point blank. Itachi could also have a Crow bunshin or Kage Bunshin Shunshin which blitzed Hebi Sasuke and kill Obito while hes solid(He needs to solidify to attack).

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Drake (Dec 5, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Minato was a spilit second faster hence, how he countered kamui. I think its safe to say Itachi<<<Minato in terms of speed and reflexes/reactions, so its safe to say itachi most likely wouldn't be too "fast" for kamui to work on hkm



Yes, FTG is significantly faster than Itachi, but in the Obito vs Minato scenario Minato had no idea what Kamui was and basically charged head-on at Obito, yet still managed to escape. In this scenario Itachi knows about Kamui, so he isn't going to be standing still and is definitely not going to be rushing straight at Obito. Obito can't long-range snipe Itachi with Kamui to my knowledge.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 5, 2016)

professor83 said:


> Don't see how itachi wins
> 
> Obito low to mid diff's
> Finding weakness does not mean you automatically win
> ...


Multiple flaws.

Obito needs to solidify to attack. Hes not going to sit there for 5 minutes. Once he does so, he gets grabbed and crushed with Susanoo Fist or gets blitzed via Clone shunshin which blitzed Hebi Sasuke.

Itachi IS one of them. Great way to twist things. Have you forgotten how Obito said that with full knowledge Itachi could kill him?

Bakufu Ranbu is tanked by Susanoo.
Oversozed shuriken are going to force Susanoo usage? Are you serious?

Another flaw is that im not saying itachi is better than naruto at clone feints. Im saying in the brief opening that Kamui has, Itachi can kill him.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 5, 2016)

I'm actually going to have to differ from the majority's sentiment here because I think is victory is realistically obtainable for Itachi. Personally, I think Itachi does have the means to replicate Minato's feat because Itachi also has a speedy technique (in the form of Susano'o) along with a potent diversion (clones) that easily mirrors Minato. Minato may have required instantaneous speed, but the Databook confirms that the elemental of surprise was instrumental in Obito's defeat, something Itachi possesses here. If Itachi can daze Obito momentarily with a bunshin, then there's absolutely no reason why Itachi would fail in either crippling Obito with an exploding bunshin (using the decoy) or blindsiding him with Susano'o given that Nagato couldn't even react to it.

Instantaneous speed isn't really required when Itachi's sagacious enough to deceive Obito and strike him with Susano'o that's significantly faster than Minato.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 5, 2016)

Just gonna put out that Nagato only got "blindsided" due to lack of knowledge kabuto had on his sensing ability. If kabuto was aware, nagato would have easily sensed toskua then simply dodge it, he's shown amazing sensing feats to suggest he could, have done it without a line of sight.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 5, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Just gonna put out that Nagato only got "blindsided" due to lack of knowledge kabuto had on his sensing ability. If kabuto was aware, nagato would have easily sensed toskua then simply dodge it, he's shown amazing sensing feats to suggest he could, have done it without a line of sight.



 Pure fanfiction, but that's irrelevant to the point, it's the fact that Itachi blindsided Nagato before he could process the loss of his Shared Vision should suffice in justifying Itachi's victory.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 5, 2016)

Drake said:


> Yes, FTG is significantly faster than Itachi, but in the Obito vs Minato scenario Minato had no idea what Kamui was and basically charged head-on at Obito, yet still managed to escape. In this scenario Itachi knows about Kamui, so he isn't going to be standing still and is definitely not going to be rushing straight at Obito. Obito can't long-range snipe Itachi with Kamui to my knowledge.


That's the thing about this matchup, its just highly in favour to obito. For the most part Itachi would have to keep his distance, but safely he doesn't have any long range attacks that would either do much to obito of if he does they've already been countered in canon. Itachi's only chance of actually winning would be izanami, but that would be literal suicide against obito as he needs to be in physical contact with him, and I think we already know why that's not gonna work.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 5, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I'm actually going to have to concur with the majority's sentiment here because I think is victory is realistically obtainable for Itachi. Personally, I think Itachi does have the means to replicate Minato's feat because Itachi also has a speedy technique (in the form of Susano'o) along with a potent diversion (clones) that easily mirrors Minato. Minato may have required instantaneous speed, but the Databook confirms that the elemental of surprise was instrumental in Obito's defeat, something Itachi possesses here. If Itachi can daze Obito momentarily with a bunshin, then there's absolutely no reason why Itachi would fail in either crippling Obito with an exploding bunshin (using the decoy) or blindsiding him with Susano'o given that Nagato couldn't even react to it.
> 
> Instantaneous speed isn't really required when Itachi's sagacious enough to deceive Obito and strike him with Susano'o that's significantly faster than Minato.


You said you would "concur" with majority opinion.

Proceeds to explain why you personally think Itachi wins.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Serene Grace (Dec 5, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Pure fanfiction, but that's irrelevant to the point, it's the fact that Itachi blindsided Nagato before he could process the loss of his Shared Vision should suffice in justifying Itachi's victory.


Nah he clearly had ridiculous sensing abilities. If he had his sensing up he, would have sensed toskua before it came, and dodged it. Lol its not fanfic he was able to pinpoint the location of kabuto across a great distance, even penetrating beyond barriers erected for the express purpose of blocking detection. This feat alone puts his sensing above or at sage mode tier, but I guess because it's itachi, we just disregard the other persons skill..lol.


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 5, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Multiple flaws.
> 
> Obito needs to solidify to attack. Hes not going to sit there for 5 minutes. Once he does so, he gets grabbed and crushed with Susanoo Fist or gets blitzed via Clone shunshin which blitzed Hebi Sasuke.


Obito has brains you know he has enough intelligence to keep distance when he attacks

Also don't know how does itachis speed and clone pressure obito when he was taking on multiple opponents with comparable or even faster than itachi and pressure them


*Spoiler*: __ 







And after a combined attack from masters (one who was faster than itachi and 2 who are similar to itachi in speed)said " even that attack failed how can we beat him"Don't know why would I beleive itachi would do any better alone with clones and all in all honesty  
As long as i remember a near immobile nagato controlled by kabuto was caught by susanoo



> Itachi IS one of them. Great way to twist things. Have you forgotten how Obito said that with full knowledge Itachi could kill him?


Itachi is simply not one of them none of his relevant feats suggest that . I twisted nothing. We know what konan did with prep and knowledge . That statement doesnot necessarily prove ananything about one on one scenario. If itachi could take him down he could he would not be overestimating a masked dude saying he was madara and all if obito was not something.


> Bakufu Ranbu is tanked by Susanoo.
> Oversozed shuriken are going to force Susanoo usage? Are you serious?


He can actually use that opportunity to actually come underground and take out itachi and we know for a fact that itachis mobility decreases when he manifests  a sussanoo. It can  also be used as  a plan to make itachi loose his below par stamina
So what is itachi doing to human sized shuruiken using his own shuriken jutsu to deflect them?



> Another flaw is that im not saying itachi is better than naruto at clone feints. Im saying in the brief opening that Kamui has, Itachi can kill him.


 faster opponent than itachi and more in number could not find that opening.

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## Parallaxis (Dec 5, 2016)

Multiple fallacies which included War Arc feats, this is Pre war Obito.



professor83 said:


> Also don't know how does itachis speed and clone pressure obito when he was taking on multiple opponents with comparable or even faster than itachi and pressure them


Because Obito needs to get close and his attention will be focused on the main body.  The clone can attack from behind.


> Itachi is simply not one of them no of his relevant feats suggest that . I twisted nothing. We know what konan did with prep and knowledge . That statement doesnot necessarily prove ananything about one on one scenario. If itachi could take him down he could he would not be overestimating a masked dude saying he was madara and all if obito was not something.


So you're gonna take an indirect statement from Minato over 2 direct statements from Obito?


> He can actually use that opportunity to actually come underground and take out itachi and we know for a fact that itachis mobility decreases when he manifests a sussanoo. It can also be used as a plan to make itachi loose his below par stamina



If he goes underground, Itachi can see him because, you know, he won't be using Katon anymore.



> So what is itachi doing to human sized shuruiken using his own shuriken jutsu to deflect them?



Laughable at best. 

He blitzed Hebi Sasuke, he dodges it easily.



professor83 said:


> faster opponent than itachi and more in number could not find that opening.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 5, 2016)

professor83 said:


> faster opponent than itachi and more in number could not find that opening.



Irrelevant, Itachi has full knowledge here.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 5, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> You said you would "concur" with majority opinion.
> 
> Proceeds to explain why you personally think Itachi wins.



My vocabulary ain't perfect sonny boy.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 5, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Multiple fallacies which included War Arc feats, this is Pre war Obito.


This is just a way for people delude themselves. Even the arguments in favour of obito  like 14 years and all. He uses the damn same kamui not that  he is using  shinra and all. And he can also use bakufu runbu and giant shurken those are all kamui related techniques which is his ms techniques.


> So you're gonna take an indirect statement from Minato over 2 direct statements from Obito?


yes . itachi has no feats to suggest that like those of prime hiruzen and all.
Also do we disregard the feat that itachi told he needed ems to surpass his mentor and master and always saw him as legendary madara ? Or was that  Itachis plan and itachi wanted to.....
Just to make myself clear here if obito wanted itachi dead he would have been dead .


> If he goes underground, Itachi can see him because, you know, he won't be using Katon anymore.


  playing those cat and mouse favours obito  you know . He can drain itachi with all those parlour tricks. We know who will run out of stamina . Healthy or not itachi will suffer from mangekyou use to leave an opening sooner or later and he is not reacting to wrap coming after that. Not that healthy itachi means he won't suffer drawbacks


> Laughable at best.
> 
> He blitzed Hebi Sasuke, he dodges it easily.


Human sized shuriken in large AOE with speed doubt he dodges  that and  playing cat and mouse and baiting is obitos tactic no #1 . That won't favour itachi from any angle.


			
				PhantomSage 56344434 said:
			
		

> Irrelevant, Itachi has full knowledge here.


Irrelevant. Master had the knowledge to that he solidifies on attacking

But could not do anything. Not that itachi can utilize five minutes continuous attack thing


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 5, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Nah he clearly had ridiculous sensing abilities. If he had his sensing up he, would have sensed toskua before it came, and dodged it. Lol its not fanfic he was able to pinpoint the location of kabuto across a great distance, even penetrating beyond barriers erected for the express purpose of blocking detection. This feat alone puts his sensing above or at sage mode tier, but I guess because it's itachi, we just disregard the other persons skill..lol.



 Yeah, and SM Kabuto is an elite sensor yet failed to sense Itachi's clones. Being an elite sensor doesn't correlate to complete awareness of their surroundings. Everyone has perceptive limitations, including elite sensors.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Dec 6, 2016)

Itachi wins. Full knowledge guarantees such.
Obito stated that he would be dead if he didn't keep secrets from Itachi (likely the workings of his Kamui and Izanagi). Because those secrets don't exist with full knowledge, there's not really an argument for Obito here.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 6, 2016)

professor83 said:


> This is just a way for people delude themselves. Even the arguments in favour of obito like 14 years and all. He uses the damn same kamui not that he is using shinra and all. And he can also use bakufu runbu and giant shurken those are all kamui related techniques which is his ms techniques.



Utter ignorance of canon fact. Obito himself stated that gaining Rinnrgan gave his reserves a boost.


> yes . itachi has no feats to suggest that like those of prime hiruzen and all.
> Also do we disregard the feat that itachi told he needed ems to surpass his mentor and master and always saw him as legendary madara ? Or was that Itachis plan and itachi wanted to.....
> Just to make myself clear here if obito wanted itachi dead he would have been dead



Then why did he wait until he was dead to recruit Sasuke and himself state "If Itachi had full knowledge he would die". Seems your being willfully ignorant here.



> Human sized shuriken in large AOE with speed doubt he dodges that and playing cat and mouse and baiting is obitos tactic no #1 . That won't favour itachi from any angle.



Itachi can dodge. Stop being ridiculous, if he goes underground Itachi just takes off Susanoo and dodges the next attack.



> Irrelevant. Master had the knowledge to that he solidifies on attacking
> *Spoiler*:
> But could not do anything. Not that itachi can utilize five minutes continuous attack thing



 Yes, and Minato won the fight against Obito. The masters dont have instantaneous attacks either.

Hell, I just gave how Itachi can attack him once he's vulnerable like Minato, Susanoo manifests instantly and he crushes him or a clone Shunshins up and kills him.

Let's not hop on to the Minato wank train here.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 6, 2016)

Wtf is this nonsense. 


Base Gai was keeping Obito's kamui at bay with his nun-chucks alone. Susano can do better.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 6, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Wtf is this nonsense.
> 
> 
> Base Gai was keeping Obito's kamui at bay with his nun-chucks alone. Susano can do better.



Especially with full knowledge, Obito's gonna get grabbed as soon as he gets close to warp.

A clone could also Shunshin from behind and kill him while he's solid


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## Sapherosth (Dec 6, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Especially with full knowledge, Obito's gonna get grabbed as soon as he gets close to warp.
> 
> A clone could also Shunshin from behind and kill him while he's solid



A simpler strategy is to let his clone get warped in there and then kill him inside the dimension when he phases. We already know that Itachi can create clones faster than a sharingan can see so Obito wouldn't know he's warping a clone.


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 6, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Utter ignorance of canon fact. Obito himself stated that gaining Rinnrgan gave his reserves a boost.


Obviously the rinnegan did. He controlled 6 jins became jubbi jin and then again did many things for rins sake 
But all he used against masters was a plain and simple kamui which he had shown using without rinnegan as long as I remember


> Then why did he wait until he was dead to recruit Sasuke and himself state "If Itachi had full knowledge he would die". Seems your being willfully ignorant here.


What was the basis of sasuke believing itachi did it for his sake " he let you win" had obito destroyed itachi (honestly could have destroyed him using other akatsuki members) and said sasuke  your brother was saint and all sasuke would have been after his head
And konan nearly destroyed the clown with knowledge and prep so why do you assume the knowledge to be preferably  1 on 1 things . Honestly itachi was doing free labour stalling people helping seal jinchuriki and all .


> Yes, and Minato won the fight against Obito. The masters dont have instantaneous attacks either.


 Minato is in the leauge of his  while his ftg reactions all are perfect counter to kamui. " 


> Hell, I just gave how Itachi can attack him once he's vulnerable like Minato, Susanoo manifests instantly and he crushes him or a clone Shunshins up and kills him.


 Itachi does not have the speed and reaction to push obito in that fashion. You are comparing two irrevant quantities here itachi isnot minato not to mention.Both were facing certain circumstances while one guy had to finish the match earlier because he couldn't control kurama for long other guy had village and family to protect so he had to take wager there .

Itachi isnot maintaing susanoo after he divides his chakra first of all. Only madara has shown to do that.

If a naruto (faster than itachi) with clones kakashi and gai with comparable speed could not touch obito itachi isnot


> Let's not hop on to the Minato wank train here.


 what ever people bring out minato still remains superior to itachi via potrayal.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 6, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Yeah, and SM Kabuto is an elite sensor yet failed to sense Itachi's clones. Being an elite sensor doesn't correlate to complete awareness of their surroundings. Everyone has perceptive limitations, including elite sensors.


I guess nagato can sense chakra, and the chakra of other people even if their miles away,  but can't dodge a blade thats completely made of chakra in is right behind himm,  because well, its itachi's. Logic.


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## Rai (Dec 6, 2016)

Itachi kill him as stated.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 6, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Obito has to physically get close and hold Itachi to warp him away. If this happens, he gets grabbed by Susanoo fist which saved Naruto and Killer B BEFORE NAGATO could fire a chakra cannon at point blank. Itachi could also have a Crow bunshin or Kage Bunshin Shunshin which blitzed Hebi Sasuke and kill Obito while hes solid(He needs to solidify to attack).


Unless Itachi does a surprise attack then, no way in hell is his Susanoo arm catching Obito with his sharingan pre cog + speed feats to suggest he could dodge it. I'm not sure why you're under the impression that when Obito is intangible he can't do anything but stand there, which makes no sense, he isn't just gonna stand still, while he's most vulnerable. Obito isn't gonna still and let Itachi grab him with his Susanoo arm, or blitz him with a clone, let's also not forget that Itachi' Susanoo's physical speed is pretty slow, so it would take time before he eevn got to Obito. Like I said, Itachi's only chance of winning this is attacking from a distance, because if he goes to CQC, its kamui gg, even if he takes a clone with him, the number of times Obito can use kamui, severely outnumbers the number of times Itachi can make clones. Since he lacks a *decent *counter to kamui, while he's about to die he gets kamui gg or he will eventually during the fight.
Lets also not forget that there aren't any indications of izanagi, so if Itachi does use an exploding clone, he'll be thinking Obito is already killed or severely injured, but he wouldn't know until Obito is standing behind him and warps him to the boxland.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 6, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> I guess nagato can sense chakra, and the chakra of other people even if their miles away,  but can't dodge a blade thats completely made of chakra in is right behind himm,  because well, its itachi's. Logic.








Sight > Sensing when it comes to defending against attacks (in most cases).


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 6, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> I guess nagato can sense chakra, and the chakra of other people even if their miles away,  but can't dodge a blade thats completely made of chakra in is right behind himm,  because well, its itachi's. Logic.



 Same reason why SM Naruto can sense everyone within the entire village yet couldn't sense the resurrection of Preta Path.

 Guess Itachi cannot dupe Nagato who is an elite sensor even though he deceived SM Kabuto with clones because it's Itachi and Itachi can never be that good.

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## DaVizWiz (Dec 6, 2016)

Obito mid diffs.

Izanagi guarantees victory here because he can grab and warp even in the process of being mortally wounded. Normally, anything bar a beheading is ineffective in killing Obito instantaneously anyway, supersonic delivered Rasengan to the back liqeufying his arm and doing massive internal damage, *Rakiri through the heart and out of the back*, and a *supersonic kunai slash that exploded his brachial artery* in a bloodbath didn't even prevent him from casting ninjutsu, the last two attacks delt to his body concurrently over the span of literally two minutes - and then he casted one of the most powerful ninjutsu techniques in the manga. 

He won't solidify if there's a bunshin within intercepting range if Izanagi isn't being used, we've seen Obito activate ghost mode while being blindsided/flanked anyway, so it's quite possible any intercepting attack by a bunshin could result in the death of Itachi himself, as the attack goes right through Obito to wound Itachi, just as Torune's attack went right through Obito to wound his partner Fu.

There is no possible way Itachi can prevent being warped or killed in close quarters for the entirety of the battle.

Obito casually outlasts if he chooses to maintain his distance and blast Itachi with Bakufu Ranbu at any point in which Itachi's Susano is not up, and the longer it stays up the more his stats drop, and the less qualified he is to combat Obito in close range, not that he is anyway.

If Susano is up, it's impossible for a bunshin to intercept, as the construct prevents anything from entering it - other than Obito because of Kamui - who warps Itachi within it.

Terrible matchup overall.

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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 6, 2016)

Obito pops kamui from the get go, pulls a Jason Voorhees and slowly stalks towards his intended murder victim, itachi cant touch him with jack, and doesnt have the tools to force an opening against intangibility, nor the speed to capitalize on one.

Obito casually strolls through susanoo, waits for itachi to try to tag him, and then taps him after his attack fails and sends him to boxland, gg.

Obito has the ability to send someone to boxland the instant he makes contact with his opponent, if obito was confidant he could screw over minato by upping kamuis warp speed, the same minato who escaped kamuis warp barely a second earlier, means itachi has 0 chance. This notion the itachi supporters have that simply because obito materializes when he attacks means itachi has a window is BS, itachi is nowhere near fast enough to deal with instant kamui, unless you can teleport, youre fucked against obito, all there is to it.

Its not even just teleportation that you need, you need teleportation *and* need to have the reflexes to teleport at the last possible second, otherwise you miss your window to strike, too early and obito simply goes intangible again, too late and off to boxland for you.

No S/T ninjutsu of your own, means you die against obito, end of story.

Then theres the argument that obito claimed if itachi had knowledge on him, itachi could kill obito. Oh, you mean how Pain said Jman could kill him with full knowledge? Which was all but proven to be a blatant lie when pain steamrolled Naruto, who was outright stated to be better than jman, when naruto had basically full knowledge, massive prep due to starting the fight with gama trio and ma/pa, and had NE KBs prepped, naruto ambushed asura path and took it down before the fight even started, deva was on cooldown, and pain had no KI, yet pain still effectively destroyed naruto?

Yeah, i thought so.

Having knowledge on your opponent doesnt mean you get feats or abilities you dont deserve, and it certainly doesnt carry your ass over the finish line when your opponent is stronger than you anyway, itachi doesnt have the speed or reaction time to deal with instant S/T to boxland, and he has no counter to intangibility, knowledge or no, he loses.

*Obito Low-Mid diff at best.*

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## Baroxio (Dec 6, 2016)

Full Knowledge? Itachi low diffs.

Clones hard counter Kamui when you have full knowledge. Just let a clone get absorbed, then shank Obito whenever he shows up in Kamui dimension. This literally happened _twice_ with Kakashi, who hit him in the stomach hard enough to draw blood after being absorbed the first time, then bitchslapped him when Obito went back into Kamui to deal with him. In both scenarios, Kakashi could have dealt massive damage with Raikiri or even a freaking Kunai, but instead decided that a basic punch was enough because *insert sentimental bullshit.*


*Spoiler*: _If these attacks were Raikiri..._ 








Itachi on the other hand has the quickest and cleanest bunshin feints in the entirety of the manga, trading places with a bunshin without Perfect Sage Senses or Jubito-catching Eternal Magenkyou Sharingan being able to react. 

Then there's Obito's lackluster showing against Konan, who blew up one of his arms with a couple of explosive notes, just by forcing him to absorb an explosion. The fact that Itachi has explosive Kage Bunshin and can trade places with them instantaneously basically means Obito may suffer similar loss of limb with every attack he makes, while Itachi escapes basically scott-free.

Best of all, since Itachi has full knowledge, he knows that Obito has nothing else in his offensive repertoire worth talking about, so he can play defensively and conserve chakra. Outlasting a full knowledge Itachi who doesn't have to use MS to kill you is basically impossible.

That said, if the two were to fight in the manga, Obito would likely just run away with his tail in between his legs and Itachi wouldn't really be able to stop him, so effectively they'd stalemate in the manga, even with full knowledge on Itachi's part. The real strength of Kamui is using it to run away like a little bitch.


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 6, 2016)

Did sasuke and Karin actually meet with fuu and torune ?
Did obito ever absorb a clone till date?


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 6, 2016)

Obito canonically destroyed a KCM Naruto clone with Gunbai, attempted to destroy a BM clone with Mokuton & Melee Shuriken, and attempted to destroy the other charging clone before Kakashi warped it with Kamui, where for some reason he played it off that he didn't realize it was warped instead of destroyed.

The entire premise of your argument is flawed @Baroxio, Obito only warps *real* opponents

I don't see a bunshin trick working on a Uchiha as powerful as Obito, especially considering Elite Jounin Kakashi with a 3-toma saw through his tricks


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 6, 2016)

@DaVizWiz

 It's a possibility considering Obito could see through Naruto's clones, so he obviously would express caution by destroying each of the clones. However, Obito cannot see through Itachi's trickery and process whether there's a clone on the battle-field or not, so even attempting to warp Itachi believing that he's the only Itachi on the battle-field could spell disaster.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 6, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> @DaVizWiz
> 
> It's a possibility considering Obito could see through Naruto's clones, so he obviously would express caution by destroying each of the clones. However, Obito cannot see through Itachi's trickery and process whether there's a clone on the battle-field or not, so even attempting to warp Itachi believing that he's the only Itachi on the battle-field could spell disaster.


Why is it 3-toma PT.1 Kakashi could see through Itachi's tricks, but MS Obito would not?

You're making statements like they are fact when they are nothing but baseless opinion.

While you may think unmentioned hypothetical tricks would work on a Mangekeyou Sharingan Obito, I do not.

To me, it's absurd to proclaim basic switches with bunshin would fool a Sharingan master like Obito, which is part of the reason why we didn't see Kakashi or Minato attempting such juvenile battle tactics against him.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 6, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Why is it 3-toma PT.1 Kakashi could see through Itachi's tricks, but MS Obito would not?
> 
> You're making statements like they are fact when they are nothing but baseless opinion.
> 
> ...



Because neither SM Kabuto and Hebi Sasuke could see through Itachi's tricks, all of which are conspicuously superior to 3T P1 Kakashi. Whether or not MS Obito could discern Itachi's tricks is up for debate, but the logic you applied is just fallacious.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 6, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Because neither SM Kabuto and Hebi Sasuke could see through Itachi's tricks, all of which are conspicuously superior to 3T P1 Kakashi. Whether or not MS Obito could discern Itachi's tricks is up for debate, but the logic you applied is just fallacious.


Then that is a fault of those two characters, both of which I'd argue have less battle experience than Obito's genitals.

Neither of which have god eyes 15 years mastered surveying the battlefield either.

Kakashi with a run of the mil 3-toma had no issue seeing through Itachi's tricks way back when he was a scrub. Ironically, Obito has the same eye, only further evolved and considerably better utilized as a Uchiha.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 6, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Then that is a fault of those two characters, both of which I'd argue have less battle experience than Obito's genitals.
> 
> Neither of which have god eyes surveying the battlefield either.
> 
> Kakashi with a run of the mil 3-toma had no issue seeing through Itachi's tricks.



 Then that's a baseless assertion.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 6, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Then that's a baseless assertion.


More baseless than a shinobi who Minato proclaimed that almost no one could face, one could only defeat with a specific set of skills ... going down to juvenile bunshin switches which a large percentage of the shinobi in the verse could produce actively?

Apparently anyone who's learned how to swtich with their bunshin in combat has a punchers chance against this shinobi.

Minato was wrong I guess. 

I find it hilarious that you think kage bunshin are even a factor in this battle.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 6, 2016)

@DaVizWiz

 You resorted to false accusations made to Kabuto and Sasuke to embellish how simplistic Itachi's bunshin tactics actually are. This is why I stated that you made a baseless assertion. I'm actually quite baffled how you dumbed down Itachi's bunshin tactics to something juvenile that anyone could replicate with ease.

 I'm well aware of what Minato had stated, but Itachi's adroitness in bunshin usage is an extreme rarity and certainly could be deduced as a special ability when no ninja can even come close to the likes of Itachi who feinted a Perfect Sage and Indra's Transmigrant with a "juvenile tactic".

 A tool is only as good as its wielder. Just because it's a common technique does not connote simplicity within said jutsu because all of that is dependent on the wielder and Itachi is, by far, the most skilled bunshin user in the manga when it comes to clone-feinting. Do not ever, say that everyone can replicate Itachi's feats because that is purely dishonest and an explicit example of trivializing Itachi's ability just to embellish your argument.

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## Parallaxis (Dec 6, 2016)

professor83 said:


> Obviously the rinnegan did. He controlled 6 jins became jubbi jin and then again did many things for rins sake
> But all he used against masters was a plain and simple kamui which he had shown using without rinnegan as long as I remember



Yeah, so he could use Kamui more efficiently.
Sasuke over a period of time developed his skills so well that he went from trash to a solid lowmid kage (Hebi). Suggesting Obito didn't improve over such a long period is asinine.



> What was the basis of sasuke believing itachi did it for his sake " he let you win" had obito destroyed itachi (honestly could have destroyed him using other akatsuki members) and said sasuke your brother was saint and all sasuke would have been after his head
> And konan nearly destroyed the clown with knowledge and prep so why do you assume the knowledge to be preferably 1 on 1 things . Honestly itachi was doing free labour stalling people helping seal jinchuriki and all .




Are you insinuating that Itachi had killing intent when he fought Sasuke.



> Minato is in the leauge of his own while his ftg reactions all are perfect counter to kamui. "



This is what I mean. The gap between Minato and Itachi's power levels are not as large as you are implying. They are in the same tier.


> Itachi does not have the speed and reaction to push obito in that fashion. You are comparing two irrevant quantities here itachi isnot minato not to mention.Both were facing certain circumstances while one guy had to finish the match earlier because he couldn't control kurama for long other guy had village and family to protect so he had to take wager there .



Yet his Susanoo manifested and grabbed Killer B and Naruto before Nagato could fire a chakra cannon at point blank range? 



> Itachi isnot maintaing susanoo after he divides his chakra first of all. Only madara has shown to do that.



Argumentum ad Ignorantium. Fallacious argument. 
Also, he can use Susanoo fist OR clones. One would suffice.
Crow Clones cost less chakra than Kage Bunshins.



> If a naruto (faster than itachi) with clones kakashi and gai with comparable speed could not touch obito itachi isnot



Naruto doesn't have an insta one shot technique that works like Susanoo. When fighting Obito, literally a touch means death, Gai's taijutsu techniques wouldn't have worked, and Kakashi's Kamui wouldn't have worked for obvious reasons. Susanoo avoids death completely.


> what ever people bring out minato still remains superior to itachi via potrayal.



Gap between them is nowhere as large as you're implying.

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## DaVizWiz (Dec 6, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> @DaVizWiz
> 
> You resorted to false accusations made to Kabuto and Sasuke to embellish how simplistic Itachi's bunshin tactics actually are. This is why I stated that you made a baseless assertion. I'm actually quite baffled how you dumbed down Itachi's bunshin tactics to something juvenile that anyone could replicate with ease.
> 
> ...


Indra's Transmigrant? Hebi Sasuke is an elemental spamming 3-toma swordsmen, at that juncture he hadn't come close to earning that title.

SM Kabuto is a better example, but when we analyze what Itachi was able to do against him, none of it truly makes any sense. A perfect sage should have been capable of sensing the presence of all moving bodies on the field around him, as SM Naruto was capable of sensing the presence of all shinobi within his hidden village and couldn't locate the chakra presence of the dead Kakashi. Kabuto's poor attention to detail can be attributed to his lack of battle experience during his lifetime as a medical aid and medical shinobi/spy, and poor conviction/grit during an exchange in duress, and is the reason why he was feinted.

A technique like shadow clones being used to create an opening or trick someone into attacking the fake presuming it is the real one is, by all means, a juvenile battle tactic, one that even child shinobi with little battle experience (Konohamaru, Gaara, Naruto) have successfully implemented against opponents in direct combat.

If we take Minato by his word, there is no way a shinobi can defeat Obito with basic bunshin tactics like switching places with clones, because that's far from a special skill, which is one of the *many* ("set of skills") needed to defeat Obito as per Minato's statement, and even genin youth shinobi with virtually no field experience were seen utilizing this basic tactic. The fact you selected it as the *premise* of your argument is baffling considering you, more so than anyone here, lean heavily on portrayal and statements for the foundation of 99% of your arguments.

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## UchihaX28 (Dec 6, 2016)

@DaVizWiz

Wouldn't matter. What baffles me is how you'd compare Kakashi w/ a run of the mill 3T Sharingan to Hebi Sasuke with the divine eyes enhanced by being an Uchiha who also possesses Indra's powerful chakra that bolster's his eyes capabilities even further and claim that Kakashi's perception is just that much better with no logic behind it. "Well, I guess Sasuke has poor attention to detail." Yeah right, the guy displayed "Shikamaru-level" of intelligence by circumventing Deidara's aerial fighting style and instantly deduced that Deidara used Doton which was something Kakashi failed to accomplish would certainly coincidentally display poor attention to detail. To have the nerve to deceive us by surmising that Sasuke's attention to detail was abysmal shows desperation, not an argument.

Throughout the manga, Itachi's ability to outwit others was associated with Itachi's "superhuman" speed. It was never because other fighters were "nerfed" to give Itachi a winning chance. I certainly will not be swayed by your dishonesty and what other preposterous excuses you might present to masquerade the fact that your argument lacks substance.

I don't care about what other individuals have done using clones because it doesn't pertain to Itachi whose execution outstrips there's. To compare Itachi's usage of clones to the other three individuals is nothing, but a delusion. Manga has emphasized that the wielder's skill is the most important, not the rank of said technique. If that mattered, then we wouldn't have Raikage's renowned speed garner praise from Minato, nor would we respect KCM Naruto for his ability to Shunshin at speeds higher than Raikage or clones that can dismantle Kages individually when they're lower rank techniques.

The misconception you're having is that you believe Itachi's ability isn't extraordinary because it uses simple clones even though Kakashi's stupefied reaction along with Itachi's ability to blitz Hebi Sasuke and DSM Kabuto which is an unprecedented feat suggests otherwise.

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## The_Conqueror (Dec 6, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Yeah, so he could use Kamui more efficiently.
> Sasuke over a period of time developed his skills so well that he went from trash to a solid lowmid kage (Hebi). Suggesting Obito didn't improve over such a long period is asinine.


I think.the topic was.did.rinnegan help obito in his kamui usage no it did not


> Are you insinuating that Itachi had killing intent when he fought Sasuke.


I made my self clear why sasuke had  to fight for tobi to.make sure understands  that itachi could have killed him and sasuke believed that with the word " heeheet you win"


> This is what I mean. The gap between Minato and Itachi's power levels are not as large as you are implying. They are in the same tier.


 The difference in  speed and reflexes between minato and itachi is  counutry mile and you need that against obito.


> Argumentum ad Ignorantium. Fallacious argument.
> Also, he can use Susanoo fist OR clones. One would suffice.
> Crow Clones cost less chakra than Kage Bunshins.



How is itachis clone different  from others ? He can make clones in a moment notice without people seeing a hand sign right? Yet sasuke saw the clone even tho he did not see the hamdsign did not he? Difference between other ninjas and obito is after obito sees the clone he can just use ghost mode . Also has better reactions than hebi sasuke.
Not that he has not dealt with clones at all he dealt with a clone faster and better than itachi in cqc
*Spoiler*: __ 



[ 



He has been able to dodge multiple blindside attacks in the manga and what's the advantage? he  does not need to dodge or counter attack.

*Spoiler*: __ 







Itachis clone arenot out of the world unlike
you know. Nothing suggests it can well against  a guy who was dancing and reacting around faster opponents and more in number.
I am sure a immobile mind fucked nagato(kabuto) who was focusing on naruto and bee was grabbed by the susanoo. Obito is neither immobile nor mindfucked nor has to deal with others.

*Spoiler*: __ 










> Naruto doesn't have an insta one shot technique that works like Susanoo. When fighting Obito, literally a touch means death, Gai's taijutsu techniques wouldn't have worked, and Kakashi's Kamui wouldn't have worked for obvious reasons. Susanoo avoids death completely.


Narutos shunshin blitz would have been instant. Rasengan doesnot need handseals. manga knowledge means obito knows about susanoo you know. Not that he will see it for the first time. If they could find a opening and used the instant he materiase to attack they would have done that. Simple manga facts they could 





> Gap between them is nowhere as large as you're implying.


.
I repeat itachi does not have reflexes to dodge a kamui wrap like minato heck even obito claimed he could have done it faster. Minato had teleportation to avoid a kamui wrap is faster and more reflexive than itachi and had a convinient means ftg to pull out a very last millisecond attack. One millisecond late you go to boxland one millisecond faster obito passes right through you
The differnce in minato and itachi is huge when dealing with kamui. Minatos speed reflexes and instantenous ftg are absolute counters to kamui[/SPOILER]


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 6, 2016)

@professor83 

 This is false. Hebi Sasuke failed to take notice of Itachi swapping places with his clone. It was only after Sasuke cleaved through Itachi's bunshin with a Raiton Fuma Shuriken that Sasuke realized that he had blundered which was why Sasuke exhibited a dazed expression afterwards.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 6, 2016)

@professor83

Feel free to read that chapter again. Susanoo fist grabbed Naruto and B before A chakra cannon was fired. If didnt grab Nagato so BS point.

Susanoo activation + The attack is instantaneous like Minato's.

This doesnt read. If Obito goes ghost mode he has no way to attack. Once he does attack he gets swarmed with Sus fist or clones.

It's a manga fact that Itachi's crow clones use less chakra. Look it up



Obito reflexes don't matter when the bunshin attacks from BEHIND.


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 6, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> @professor83
> 
> Feel free to read that chapter again. Susanoo fist grabbed Naruto and B before A chakra cannon was fired. If didnt grab Nagato so BS point.
> 
> ...


Makes me wonder how obito reacted and phased  to multiple blindside attacks in the same manga and dealt with better and faster clones than itachi.
Not  to mention he can force itachi to use sussanoo in that fashion and  just phase then force him to use Susanoo using bakufu runbu and outlast him of obito doesnot feel safe assuming healthy itachi means he won't suffer drawbacks from mangekyou usage which he sonner or later will.  Guess who will run of of stamina first?


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## Parallaxis (Dec 6, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I'm still going to include Minato in regardless.
> 
> I sorta did. Deidara's explosives aren't food for Pain in the same way Kakuzu's is and Deidara's aerial mobility at least enables him to evade some attacks.





professor83 said:


> Makes me wonder how obito reacted and phased to multiple blindside attacks in the same manga and dealt with better and faster clones than itachi.



Scan? Of Obito reacting to a nigh instantaneous attack from right BEHIND him.

Itachi can troll Bakufu Ranbu by forming a bunshin, having it go out of LOS and attack Obito while he's using Katon.

Or Itachi can force him to cancel Katon with a Magatama. 
Also OOC for him to use Bakufu Ranbu over and over agan.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 6, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Exatcly my point.
> Or a Susanoo arm grab serves the same purpose.
> 
> And no, FTG attack is not instant. FTG is, the Rasengan afterwards isnt.
> ...



Precisely.


Fools him with a clone the instant before he solidifies.
Presents him with an elaborate masquerade of crows which leaves Obito dazed and incapable of rationalizing the situation.
Subsequently nails him with Susano'o from the rear.

@DaVizWiz did contest that I was going against portrayal and while I didn't include portrayal within my argument, my position was actually guided purely by portrayal. For instance, Obito conspicuously feared Itachi, even admitting that a last-ditch effort could've potentially killed him. That's a rather huge leap considering that Itachi on his death-bed could've literally killed Obito had he known Obito's secrets. If a death-bed Itachi could've killed Obito, it makes me question how a perfectly healthy Itachi would've faired against Obito.

That, and Obito even surrendered to Itachi's ultimatum and Itachi's death led to Obito subsequently commencing an attack on the village because it was finally "off-limits." Just a few examples of portrayal that denote Itachi's superiority.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 7, 2016)

@cctr9

 Get your ass in here home boi.

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## The_Conqueror (Dec 7, 2016)

People still going about the clone when he has performed on similar scenarios or even adverse  scenarios
He could react and phase through gated gai when the masters first arrived  
Again reacted and phased  to gais attack again

Does itachi have invisible clones of some kind that obito wont notice or what? Once obito notices clones he makes distance and destroys the clone with bakufu runbu or lets itachi to destroy his clone by activating ghost mode. Match does not always go as want.



UchihaX28 said:


> That, and Obito even surrendered to Itachi's ultimatum and Itachi's death led to Obito subsequently commencing an attack on the village because it was finally "off-limits." Just a few examples of portrayal that denote Itachi's superiority.


This is where people delude themselves. Had obito wanted itachi dead he would have been dead . It would have been nine members vs 1  sick itachi.  And people act as if itachi accomplished anything in his whole 9 years in akatsuki. The question remains why couldn't itachi do anything about obito or akatsuki? Obito got everything he wanted until nagato fell for a talk no jutsu.

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## JiraiyaFlash (Dec 7, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Multiple fallacies which included War Arc feats, this is Pre war Obito.


And you used Edo-ITachi's feats for your first post ?! 

And all feats @professor83 showed isnt about rinnegan abilities.. They're Obito's basic ninjutsu and sharingan dojutsu ?! 

Rinnegan + MS Obito aint that different than his MS version (Besides Gedo Mazo and Jinc paths). He didnt use bt,st,ct,soul sucking, 6 paths against KCM2 Naruto and masters ??? nope. So yeah The Obito that fought against heavy hitters like Gai, Naruto, Bee is basically MS Obito.

_______________________________

This guy goes toe to toe against Yellow Flash in his youth. 
This guy easily able to interfere Ônoki's Jinton and take Sasuke from there.. And until Obito talk nobody understand that anything about Obito's rescue and presence in that room !?
This guy is a decent mokuton user, far better katon user than ıtachi, he has stunt option, sealing option, high stamina, regen, more powerfull strength and better experience. . 

Obito is the top dog of Akatsuki.. And yes Itachi is in the top3 or top 4 (at least), and yes this is some tough match-up... But sadly Itachi (alive ıtachi specialy) isnt Gai + Kakashi or Gai + Kakashi + KCM2 NAruto or KCM Naruto + Killer Bee or combine of these ... And aint Minato either. 

And also manga knowledge means full knowledge for Obito on Itachi (except Izanami)..

Izanami is the only option that Itachi have but Obito isnt that unexperienced about MS techniques and its history (his mentor is Madara). And he is pretty fast, so this is not Kabuto .

I'm gonna go with the guy who has more stamina, speed, strength, option and hax.. And that guy is surely Obito..

Obito take this with mid-high (mostly mid) diff.

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## Parallaxis (Dec 7, 2016)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> And you used Edo-ITachi's feats for your first post ?!
> 
> And all feats @professor83 showed isnt about rinnegan abilities.. They're Obito's basic ninjutsu and sharingan dojutsu ?!
> 
> ...


Yeah, because Itachi never changed when he went to Edo other than regen. So moot point. In fact, you get weaker from being an Edo other than regen and recharge.


Obito had a period of years to improve his jutsu. What do think he did during those years.

He also stated than gaining the Rinnegan gave him lots of chakra. So moot point as well.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 7, 2016)

@professor83

Concession accepted. You didnt show a single scan of Obito reacting to a blindside attack, or per se it was different than this one. Gated Gai attacks he screamed "Konoha whirlwind" before, on the second one it was from the side.

UchihaX28 showed you how he could make a clone faster than the Sharingan can see, and he could use crows to block LOS to have it get behind him.

Then you said "He's reacted to an attack from behind" when he's clearly never done such thing.

Even if he can, which I doubt with a 1000 crows up, when he turns to deal with the clone he gets killed.

Genjutsu is an option to. Obito can break out, but it will stall him for about 2 seconds. Enough time to kill him.

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## Android (Dec 7, 2016)

Tobi wins this .
He kept BM Naruto , Bee , Kakashi , and Gai in his back pocket while protecting the GM at the same time w/o using a single Rinne technique .
Genjutsu is useless , Amaterasu is so crappy it won't make a difference , everything else is countered with Kamui .
Tobi either outlasts him and then finishes him off , or warp him up to boxville .
Tobi needs only one touch to win .ONE touch .Say hello to Torune and Fu Itachi !


PhantomSage said:


> Then you said "He's reacted to an attack from behind" when he's clearly never done such thing.


Didn't he react to Gai and Kakashi attacking him from behind when he was about to warp up a kcm Naruto .
And what about the Raikiri Kunai Kakashi throw at him ? he wasn't even intangible in both cases .

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## Parallaxis (Dec 7, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Tobi wins this .
> He kept BM Naruto , Bee , Kakashi , and Gai in his back pocket while protecting the GM at the same time w/o using a single Rinne technique .
> Genjutsu is useless , Amaterasu is so crappy it won't make a difference , everything else is countered with Kamui .
> Tobi either outlasts him and then finishes him off , or warp him up to boxville .
> ...


This should be pre war Obito.

I think the reason why he kinda saw Gai was because he was screaming "VICIOUS KONOHA LEAF WHIRLWIND friend!!!". 

So Im saying a clone could possibly get him or at the very least distract him so Itachu can get away.

He is supposed to have full intel and prep time here.

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## Android (Dec 7, 2016)

Actually , i take what i said back , Tobi mid-low diffs 
Maybe low diff , ok ok , he low diffs then

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## Android (Dec 7, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> This should be pre war Obito.


Rinnegan Tobi has Kamui and a Rinnegan he doesn't use for no more than summoning the Mao , controlling the Bijuu and using the Rikudo Juubi Kuin , he battled Kakashi and co w/o using a single Rinne techniques , so why the hell don't we grant him his war feats ?
If a groupe of
- Kakashi with his own damn Kamui and with his IQ that rivals Itachi's .
- Gai who is far better in CQC than what Itachi would ever hope to be in this manga .
- BM Naruo who is far faster and a better sensor and a better clone feinter than what Itachi would ever hope to be in his entire life .
- Killer Bee in his BM
A group that has far more power and more tools to counter Tobi went to hell and back just to touch .
JUST TO TOUCH HIM !
The only 3 times where Tobi's Kamui was countered was :
- Konan's Kami no sheisa justu , an attack that goes for more than 10 minutes .
- Kakashi's own damn Kamui .
- Minato's FTG
Itachi doesn't have an S/T justu , he doesn't have an attack that is faster than Tobi's Kamui , nor does he have an attack that can go for more than 5 minutes non stop .
So how the hell is he exactly taking on Tobi here ? 
Once Tobi puts his hand on him , it over .
Did i foget something ? oh yeah , Itachi's explosive clones ? they failed to cathch part 01 Kakashi .
Let's be real here , Itachi isn't winning this one .

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 7, 2016)

You can grant him War Arc feats then, but he said that the Rinnegan itself gave him much more chakra.


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 7, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> @professor83
> 
> Concession accepted. You didnt show a single scan of Obito reacting to a blindside attack.
> 
> ...


What does making clone faster than eye can perceive so when you can still react to the clone?  Sasuke reacted to it. Obito will do it much better since he just needs to activate ghost mode. He can't see the handsign does not mean he can't see the clone?

So which side did gai attack here ?

Or here


*Spoiler*: __ 












PhantomSage said:


> You can grant him War Arc feats then, but he said that the Rinnegan itself gave him much more chakra.


His war arc feats are controlling 6 bijjus
Gedou mazo.
Becoming ten tailed jinchuriki and killing people kamui is his ms ability not rinnegan

Reactions: Like 2


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## Serene Grace (Dec 7, 2016)

The thing I don't get is when obito becomes tangible, he's not just gonna be standing there in one position to let some grab him. Fighting obito in CQC is just spells simple death for Itachi, that's why I think even Itachi himself would be smarter not to try and engage in CQC with obito. I also think, were forgetting obito is a sensory type. Unlike Kabuto he's gonna have his eyes open, so he won't have to completely rely on his sensing, and he'd not only be able to sense Itachi's clones that are behind him, but also react with his sharingan pre-cog. If this happens, let's just say Itachi and his clones either gets toasted with a bakafu ranbu or kamui gg. I'm under the assumption that you guys don't honestly think Itachi can make multiple clones, though I'd like to hear that I'm in the mood for a good laugh. He's clearly limited people don't give him techniques he can't do.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 7, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> The thing I don't get is when obito becomes tangible, he's not just gonna be standing there in one position to let some grab him. Fighting obito in CQC is just spells simple death for Itachi, that's why I think even Itachi himself would be smarter not to try and engage in CQC with obito. I also think, were forgetting obito is a sensory type. Unlike Kabuto he's gonna have his eyes open, so he won't have to completely rely on his sensing, and he'd not only be able to sense Itachi's clones that are behind him, but also react with his sharingan pre-cog. If this happens, let's just say Itachi and his clones either gets toasted with a bakafu ranbu or kamui gg. I'm under the assumption that you guys don't honestly think Itachi can make multiple clones, though I'd like to hear that I'm in the mood for a good laugh. He's clearly limited people don't give him techniques he can't do.



 Well, he did against Minato before he got bam-flashed. I think you operate under the assumption that all ninja are sagacious enough to rationalize every situation perfectly which is obviously not the case and is not the case for Obito who failed to activate Kamui after being tricked by Minato. Itachi's feints accomplish the very same goal and would catch him off guard long enough to "bam-flash" him with Susano'o.


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## Empathy (Dec 7, 2016)

Obito attributed Itachi's failure to kill him to the information he was able to keep from him, so I think this match-up comes down to knowledge. With full knowledge here, Itachi knows _Kamui _mechanics and he can formulate a strategy using exploding bunshin and _Amaterasu _when he solidifies to attack; that in turn, will force Obito to use _Izanagi_, where Itachi can win by sacrificing his eye for _Izanami_. If Itachi had less information on Obito's abilities, then I think he'd lose, but in this particular thread he knows enough to win.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 7, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Tobi wins this .
> He kept BM Naruto , Bee , Kakashi , and Gai in his back pocket while protecting the GM at the same time w/o using a single Rinne technique .
> Genjutsu is useless , Amaterasu is so crappy it won't make a difference , everything else is countered with Kamui .
> Tobi either outlasts him and then finishes him off , or warp him up to boxville .
> ...





cctr9 said:


> Actually , i take what i said back , Tobi mid-low diffs
> Maybe low diff , ok ok , he low diffs then


Again, glad someone else gets it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Dec 7, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Yeah, because Itachi never changed when he went to Edo other than regen. So moot point. In fact, you get weaker from being an Edo other than regen and recharge.


Itachi was a sick person.. And MS is some item which constnatly drain the chakra and stamina of the user... And ıf something can erase this effetcs and instead gives Itachi regen and limitless endurance.. This is pretty something boost.

Yeah Edo Body =/= Original... But this isnt right for Itachi. 

And gaining more chakra isnt gonna change Obito's versatility or speed feats.. Cuz even his MS version some kinda durability monster contrary to Itachi... So this isnt something different..

And you say to me ; "Edo-Itachi its only means regen nothing more this is moot point" then you're also gonna say "War-ARc Obito has more chakra big difference !" Kinda bipartite argument you're propose here my friend ?!




PhantomSage said:


> 1000 crows up


Exact Number ? 

And even if Itachi is able to bait some clone to Obito... ?! What is gonna do to Obito ? Clone Explosion ?

This guy tanks Naruto's Rasengan like it was nothing, he take Minato's Hirashin Lvl2 Rasengan + Kunai Stap and he goes away like it was nothing, he stoped Suigetsu's sword slash with his bare backhand.

Obito's durability and regenaration pretty able to take anything from Itachi (except Totsguga Blade and Multiple Amaterasu)..

You you're back the wrong horse here my friend..

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Serene Grace (Dec 7, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Well, he did against Minato before he got bam-flashed. I think you operate under the assumption that all ninja are sagacious enough to rationalize every situation perfectly which is obviously not the case and is not the case for Obito who failed to activate Kamui after being tricked by Minato. Itachi's feints accomplish the very same goal and would catch him off guard long enough to "bam-flash" him with Susano'o.


Not sure why you're comparing a 14-year-old Obito, who clearly lacked battle experience compared to his adult version. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if a 14-year-old was getting tricked by a ninja that's skillfull and strong enough to hold the title of Hokage. I also don't know why you used Minato as an example, the whole point of my argument is to be able to beat Obito on a 1 on 1 situation, you need incredible speed and space-time ninjutsu, something Minato had and something Itachi lacks. Itachi could know every little detail about Obito if he wanted, but if he doesn't have a legit counter to Kamui then he loses. It's also pretty baseless to say Itachi's clone feinting would work the same way as Minato's utilization of FTG did against obito.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 7, 2016)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Itachi was a sick person.. And MS is some item which constnatly drain the chakra and stamina of the user... And ıf something can erase this effetcs and instead gives Itachi regen and limitless endurance.. This is pretty something boost.
> 
> Yeah Edo Body =/= Original... But this isnt right for Itachi.
> 
> ...



What? Itachi's healthy here. 
Are you saying a healthy Itachi can't use Ribcage Susanoo and grab someone? 
Sick Itachi used multiple MS techs then a V4 Susanoo for a long time, then remanifested it, and slowly walked towards Sasuke.

My point is, being an Edo doesn not increase your speed.



> Exact Number ?
> 
> And even if Itachi is able to bait some clone to Obito... ?! What is gonna do to Obito ? Clone Explosion ?
> 
> ...



An explosion and Rasengan are vastly different things.

And MS Obito isn't the strongest in the Akatsuki, Pain is stronger than him.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 7, 2016)

READ THE OP SCENARIO. ITACHI IS SETTING UP AN AMBUSH FOR OBITO WITH FULL KNOWLEDGE. ESSENTIALLY, HE HAS A BIT OF PREP TIME, WHICH HE CAN HIDE A BUNSHIN WITH OR SET UP EXPLOSIVE TAGS.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 7, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> The thing I don't get is when obito becomes tangible, he's not just gonna be standing there in one position to let some grab him.


And Itachi is?

Let's face it, with full knowledge and a bit of prep time, once he sees Obito even come close he's going to get crushed with a Susanoo fist. Or he can swarm his LOS with crows who can plant genjutsu. 

A misconception is that because he has MS, he's completely null from genjutsu. False, he will be stunned for a couple seconds, which is enough time to act. The same thing happened to Hebi Sasuke, and he was held in place for like 10 minutes. It can at least be used to momentarily stun him, even for a second which will still mess him up.

Once he's disoriented from the clone swarm, he gets "bamflashed" with Susanoo arm,


> ghting obito in CQC is just spells simple death for Itachi, that's why I think even Itachi himself would be smarter not to try and engage in CQC with obito.


It also spells possible death for him as well seeing as how Itachi has time to prep and familiarize with the surroundings (He ambushes Obito in this scenario) and he can awaken a Susanoo limb and smack him down, anytime


> ike Kabuto he's gonna have his eyes open, so he won't have to completely rely on his sensing, and he'd not only be able to sense Itachi's clones that are behind him,


Then he's going to have to deal with the clone, which isn't going to be easy seeing as how the real body is going to take him down. It's a catch/22.




> I'm under the assumption that you guys don't honestly think Itachi can make multiple clones, though I'd like to hear that I'm in the mood for a good laugh. He's clearly limited people don't give him techniques he can't do.



That's not the point.
One clone serves the purpose, or just one susanoo ribcage usage.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 7, 2016)

I didn't realise this Itachi-cult was still around.

Itachi loses hard, there is literally he can do to counter Kamui. He has no unique abilities which can threaten or challenge Obito. Once Obito just touches Itachi, its over.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 7, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Let's face it, with full knowledge and a bit of prep time, once he sees Obito even come close he's going to get crushed with a Susanoo fist. Or he can swarm his LOS with crows who can plant genjutsu.


Yah no. Susanoo fists don't have to speed feats to suggest they would hit someone who has sharingan pre cog + sensing + speed feats to suggest otherwise and saving bee before asuras laser isn't one, he prepped the hand prior to the laser being fired, hence he save bee before the laser was even hit, I mean the laser takes time to fire this isn't really a speed feat that makes his hands speedy. Oh god, finger genjutsu is a yin release, even Itachi himself knows how useless that shit is against sharingan users.



PhantomSage said:


> A misconception is that because he has MS, he's completely null from genjutsu. False, he will be stunned for a couple seconds, which is enough time to act. The same thing happened to Hebi Sasuke, and he was held in place for like 10 minutes.


Fallacious comparison. 14-year-old MS Obito already has superior feats in terms of genjutsu than Hebi Sasuke, and he also has a stronger Sharingan. Suggesting that Itachi's 3T genjutsu would work on Obito's MS is nothing more than a baseless assertion, considering the fact that MS increase the stats of one's Sharingan.


PhantomSage said:


> Once he's disoriented from the clone swarm, he gets "bamflashed" with Susanoo arm,


Clone Swarm? I'd give him 2-3 clones at best, and that still wouldn't be enough, as Obito already has battle experience when it comes to fighting multiple opponents at the same time in CQC, heck he's even done great against superior chars than Itachi. Then Obito dodges Susanoo arm with sharingan pre-cog and his great speed then warps him to the boxland.  Honestly dude, Itachi trying to fight Obito in CQC with his susanoo is probably the dumbest thing he could do, his susanoo is not only slower physically then he is in his base speed but is also a far bigger and easier a target for Obito to warp to the kamui boxland.


PhantomSage said:


> It also spells possible death for him as well seeing as how Itachi has time to prep and familiarize with the surroundings (He ambushes Obito in this scenario) and he can awaken a Susanoo limb and smack him down, anytime


Again when Itachi does this, Obito's just gonna be sitting on his ass right? He senses it, percieves it with his sharingan pre cog and simply dodges it with his great speed.



PhantomSage said:


> Then he's going to have to deal with the clone, which isn't going to be easy seeing as how the real body is going to take him down. It's a catch/22.


It's not like he has experience fighting more than one people in CQC. 
*cough* Fuu and Torune *cough*, *cough* BM Naruto , Bee , Kakashi , and Gai *cough* oh wait seems like he does



PhantomSage said:


> That's not the point.
> One clone serves the purpose, or just one susanoo ribcage usage.


Countered all of this above. The same notion of Obito not being able to fight multiple people in CQC is just ridiculous, CQC anyways spells death for Itachi because one mistake leads to him getting toasted by Bakafu Ranbu or him getting sent to the boxland and I'll assure you the latter with defiently be the result if he foolishly triees to enage in CQC with his Susanoo. The number of times Obito can use Kamui outnumbers the amount of time Itachi can make clones, eventually, the real Itachi will get gg to Kamui land, and if he takes an exploding clone,  well Obito just takes the damage, regenerates from it with his senju cells. I mean he can tank a rasengan, I'm pretty sure he could tank an exploding clone


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## Parallaxis (Dec 7, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Fallacious comparison. 14-year-old MS Obito already has superior feats in terms of genjutsu than Hebi Sasuke, and he also has a stronger Sharingan. Suggesting that Itachi's 3T genjutsu would work on Obito's MS is nothing more than a baseless assertion, considering the fact that MS increase the stats of one's Sharingan.



Saying that Obito can break out instantaneously is a baseless assertion. 
Did you even read my argument? I said that there is no doubt that Obito can break out of genjutsu, juts that it can stall him for a second at least, a second is crucial in these battles and will leave him disoriented.



> lone Swarm? I'd give him 2-3 clones at best, and that still wouldn't be enough, as obito already has battle experience when it coems to fighting multiple opponents at the same time in CQC, heck he's even done great against superior chars then Itachi.



I meant "crow swarm". They can disorient him too, and seeing as how each individual crow can cast genjutsu, this will serve to stun him even further.




> Again when Itachi does this, Obito's just gonna be sitting on his ass right? He senses it, percieves it with his sharingan pre cog and simply dodges it with his great speed.


False argument.

We all know how Minato ended up against Obito right?
We also have here, Sasuke reacting to and protecting himself with Susanoo before Minato can strike him. 


Yet Itachi activated Susanoo before Sasuke.


Ergo, Obito failed against Minato's Rasengan speed, Itachi can replicate that with Susanoo arm.



> It's not like he has experience fighting more than one people in CQC.


It's not like the instant he turns to deal with a clone, he gets smacked down.


> Countered all of this above. The same notion of Obito not being able to fight multiple people in CQC is just ridiculous, CQC anyways spells death for Itachi because one mistake leads to him getting toasted by Bakafu Ranbu or him getting sent to the boxland. The number of times Obito can use Kamui outnumbers the amount of time Itachi can make clones, eventually, the real Itachi will get gg to Kamui land, and if he takes an exploding clone,  well Obito just takes the damage, regenerates from it with his senju cells. I mean he can tank a rasengan, I'm pretty sure he could tank an exploding clone



Do you even know how Bakufu Ranbu works? It's a mid long range jutsu.
Countered everything above.

Exploding clone =/= Rasengan. Comparing the two is asinine. One is brute force, an imploding punch. One is a ball of heat that expands and explodes?

Guess which one is meant to kill? He can't tank a Susanoo arm either.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 7, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Saying that Obito can break out instantaneously is a baseless assertion.
> Did you even read my argument? I said that there is no doubt that Obito can break out of genjutsu, juts that it can stall him for a second at least, a second is crucial in these battles and will leave him disoriented.


He wouldn't break out instantaneously, he would likely just see right through it possibly not getting caught at all. MS is a stronger version than 3T, you'll have to give proof of Itachi putting an MS user in genjutsu using only 3T.




PhantomSage said:


> False argument.


How so?


PhantomSage said:


> We all know how Minato ended up against Obito right?


He used FTG(which is instantaneous), and was a split second faster, right? Yes, which holds my point of the only way to beat Obito on a 1 on 1 situation is with great speed and space time jutsu something Itachi lacks and something Minato had.  Not sure how Itachi will replicate Minato's feat while he had instantaneous teleportation on his side with his Susanoo, especially since it's slower than Itachi's actual base speed.



PhantomSage said:


> We all know how Minato ended up against Obito right?
> We also have here, Sasuke reacting to and protecting himself with Susanoo before Minato can strike him.
> *Spoiler*:
> 
> ...



So his Susanoo forming quickly equals to his Susanoo hand's speed? Lmao, call me when Itachi's susanoo gets good enough physical speed feats same ad his susanoo hand to suggest it even hits Obito.



PhantomSage said:


> It's not like the instant he turns to deal with a clone, he gets smacked down.


Alright completely avoid what I just said. It doesn't change the fact that he has experience fighting people in CQC who were actually superior to Itachi and his clones. Face it, Obito quickly does away with Itachi's clone, senses Itachi's Susanoo's presence including the hand and dodges the hand with pre-cog + his great speed goes intangible, outspeeds his Susanoo and warps Itachi to the Kamui land. Again Itachi trying to engage in CQC with his Susanoo against Obito just ridiculous as it spells kamui gg all over it.



PhantomSage said:


> Countered everything above.


Yah sure you did .



PhantomSage said:


> Exploding clone =/= Rasengan. Comparing the two is asinine. One is brute force, an imploding punch. One is a ball of heat that expands and explodes?


Exploding clone would be used for more of a widespread damage then used to kill a singular person. Rasengan would be used more for the latter as it would most likely cause more damage to an individual, then a big explosion would.



PhantomSage said:


> I meant "crow swarm". They can disorient him too, and seeing as how each individual crow can cast genjutsu, this will serve to stun him even further.
> *Spoiler*:


And what would this accomplish? Sasuke was only stunned momentarily while Obito would likely escape faster due to him having a stronger Sharingan.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 7, 2016)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I didn't realise this Itachi-cult was still around.
> 
> Itachi loses hard, there is literally he can do to counter Kamui. He has no unique abilities which can threaten or challenge Obito. Once Obito just touches Itachi, its over.



Obito himself disagreed with you inside his head, contemplating to himself, saying how lucky he was.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 7, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> He wouldn't break out instantaneously, he would likely just see right through it possibly not getting caught at all. MS is a stronger version than 3T, you'll have to give proof of Itachi putting an MS user in genjutsu using only 3T.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Tell me this....

You keep saying FTG is instantaneous, but you have zero evidence that Minato's arm movement is faster than Susano activation/grab.

Minato let Obito touch him and THEN instantaneously used FTG, and THEN swung his rasengan towards Obito's back.

Itachi can do the same thing. He can let Obito touch him, and THEN instantaneously activate Susano+Grab all at the same time.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 7, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Obito himself disagreed with you inside his head, contemplating to himself, saying how lucky he was.


I think he meant if Itachi had prior prep and ambushed him, he would have been dead(something weaker characters than Itachi can do) nothing indicates he mean't a 1 on 1 situation.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 7, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> He wouldn't break out instantaneously, he would likely just see right through it possibly not getting caught at all. MS is a stronger version than 3T, you'll have to give proof of Itachi putting an MS user in genjutsu using only 3T.




What?
Hebi Sasuke was caught for like 10 minutes. If we extrapolate this to a MS, this shows that Obito can at least be stunned momentarily. 


> He used FTG(which is instantaneous), and was a split second faster, right? Yes, which holds my point of the only way to beat Obito on a 1 on 1 situation is with great speed and space time jutsu something Itachi lacks and something Minato had.  Not sure how Itachi will replicate Minato's feat while he had instantaneous teleportation on his side with his Susanoo, especially since it's slower than Itachi's actual base speed.





Think you are wrong here. FTG is instant. The attack afterwards IS NOT.

Minato teleports -----> Instant
Minato forms a Rasengan and strikes with it -----> Not instant

Susanoo activates -----> Instant
Susanoo Arm ------> Not instant

Obito already failed against one of these. Guess how he's gonna far against one with similar speed?




> So his Susanoo forming quickly equals to his Susanoo hand's speed? Lmao, call me when Itachi's susanoo gets good enough physical speed feats same ad his susanoo hand to suggest it even hits Obito.


Addressed.



> Alright completely avoid what I just said. It doesn't change the fact that he has experience fighting people in CQC who were actually superior to Itachi and his clones. Face it, Obito quickly does away with Itachi's clone, senses Itachi's Susanoo's presence including the hand and dodges the hand with pre-cog + his great speed goes intangible, outspeeds his Susanoo and warps Itachi to the Kamui land. Again Itachi trying to engage in CQC with his Susanoo against Obito just ridiculous as it spells kamui gg all over it.



What you're suggesting is....
Obito senses a clone behind him
Turns around and deals with it BEFORE A SUSANOO ARMS COMES AND CRUSHES HIM, when the activation itself is instant and the attack is also extremely quick, Obito has failed against this type of attack.



> Exploding clone would be used for more of a widespread damage then used to kill a singular person. Rasengan would be used more for the latter as it would most likely cause more damage to an individual, then a big explosion would.



A person gets hit by a car.
A person gets exploded with a grenade?

Who do you think survives?



emanthespriggan1234 said:


> And what would this accomplish? Sasuke was only stunned momentarily while Obito would likely escape faster due to him having a stronger Sharingan.



What? Having a stronger Sharingan doesn't mean anything when crows are swarming you can completely disorienting and blocking your LOS. You can't see through crows with Sharingan.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 7, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> I think he meant if Itachi had prior prep and ambushed him, he would have been dead(something weaker characters than Itachi can do) nothing indicates he mean't a 1 on 1 situation.




He didn't say prep. He just said if Itachi knew his secret (whatever that was), Itachi was capable of killing him. Whether you like it or not, Obito admitted Itachi has the skillset to kill him.


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## Dr. White (Dec 7, 2016)

Normally it's a toss up with Itachi's genjutsu/clone game and diverse MS battling it out with Obito's efficient Kamui and crazy reserves along with some supplement as well. But here Itachi is taking this given he has full and element of surprise. This is the man who could clone feint a full knowledge SM sensing Kabuto trapped inside of a cave.
even as a child Itachi was tailing Obito to the Uchiha sanctuary and he never caught on until they met for the first time (which he praises Itachi for). Itachi can also do things like activate MS techniques via his crows, detonate clones, etc. He will eventually tag Totsuka, or Tsuku.

Also Susanoo activation is not instant. It scales to thought processing speed and then Susanoo has it's own formation speed (which can seem instant realtively but is not actually instant). Hirashin is instant because it is space swapping, their is not travel involved. Albeit yeah the attack afterwards is not. Obito's Kamui is the same thing as Susanoo in regards to thought speed/activation speed. Konan took advantage of this and was able to threaten/tag Obito even outside of paper ocean.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 7, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Minato let Obito touch him and THEN instantaneously used FTG, and THEN swung his rasengan towards Obito's back.
> 
> Itachi can do the same thing. He can let Obito touch him, and THEN instantaneously activate Susano+Grab all at the same time.


Lol he never "swung" anything, he instantly landed where the kuani was, which was under Obito's back. I mean he was only able to achieve this because he was a split second faster than Obito, and I think we can all agree that Minato is superior to Itachi when it comes to speed.

And just stop right there when you say Susanoo activated instantly.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 7, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Lol he never "swung" anything, he instantly landed where the kuani was, which was under Obito's back. I mean he was only able to achieve this because he was a split second faster than Obito, and I think we can all agree that Minato is superior to Itachi when it comes to speed.
> 
> And just stop right there when you say Susanoo activated instantly.


Then he swung a Rasengan at his back.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 7, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Normally it's a toss up with Itachi's genjutsu/clone game and diverse MS battling it out with Obito's efficient Kamui and crazy reserves along with some supplement as well. But here Itachi is taking this given he has full and element of surprise. This is the man who could clone feint a full knowledge SM sensing Kabuto trapped inside of a cave.
> even as a child Itachi was tailing Obito to the Uchiha sanctuary and he never caught on until they met for the first time (which he praises Itachi for). Itachi can also do things like activate MS techniques via his crows, detonate clones, etc. He will eventually tag Totsuka, or Tsuku.
> 
> Also Susanoo activation is not instant. It scales to thought processing speed and then Susanoo has it's own formation speed (which can seem instant realtively but is not actually instant). Hirashin is instant because it is space swapping, their is not travel involved. Albeit yeah the attack afterwards is not. Obito's Kamui is the same thing as Susanoo in regards to thought speed/activation speed. Konan took advantage of this and was able to threaten/tag Obito even outside of paper ocean.


If you use this logic, then FTG is not instant either because the user has to react as well. Itachi should be able to react to Obito coming close given he has MS and full knowledge here, he knows that if Obito tries to approach, he's gonna have to stop him.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 7, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Lol he never "swung" anything, he instantly landed where the kuani was, which was under Obito's back. I mean he was only able to achieve this because he was a split second faster than Obito, and I think we can all agree that Minato is superior to Itachi when it comes to speed.
> 
> And just stop right there when you say Susanoo activated instantly.




What about the rasengan that he has to smash into Obito's back? That requires physical arm movement.


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## Dr. White (Dec 7, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> If you use this logic, then FTG is not instant either because the user has to react as well. Itachi should be able to react to Obito coming close given he has MS and full knowledge here, he knows that if Obito tries to approach, he's gonna have to stop him.


You didn't read my post. I stated all jutsu need to be thought initiated. But saying Susanoo formation speed is instant is wrong. Hirashin teleport speed is instant. That's all I was correcting you on.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 7, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> You didn't read my post. I stated all jutsu need to be thought initiated. But saying Susanoo formation speed is instant is wrong. Hirashin teleport speed is instant. That's all I was correcting you on.


True.

Tho a Susanoo arm did form in 1/1000th of a second.
Susanoo arm being a bit faster than Minato's arm speed should make up for that then.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 7, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> What?
> Hebi Sasuke was caught for like 10 minutes. If we extrapolate this to a MS, this shows that Obito can at least be stunned momentarily.


Still yet to give me proof of a weaker sharingan putting a stronger sharingan in genjutsu.



PhantomSage said:


> Minato forms a Rasengan and strikes with it -----> Not instant


He formed the rasengan prior to using FTG, not after and he landed where the kunai was, which was under Obito's back. And does it take all that effort to simply put you're hand down on something? That would literally take a few milliseconds.



PhantomSage said:


> Susanoo activates -----> Instant


It doesn't activate instantly, it's fastest feat was reacting to kirin, which was lightning

To even suggest something is nigh instantaneous, that said thing has to at least be faster or moving at the speed of light(even then something that happens instantaneous is still ridiculously quicker than the light).

Lightning travels at around *220,000 miles per hour, *while 299,792 kilometers *per second. *So saying that Susanoo activates instantly is just baseless or plain wrong.

Minato was able to achieve what he did, because of his teleporation and being a split second faster than Obito. Itachi does nto have the arsenal to win this which is space tiem jutsu and great speed.



PhantomSage said:


> Obito already failed against one of these. Guess how he's gonna fare
> against one with similar speed?


The difference is, Minato's teleportation is actually instantaneous while Itachi's Susanoo activation isn't even faster than light.



PhantomSage said:


> Addressed the wrong info.


Fixed




PhantomSage said:


> Obito senses a clone behind him


Wait what? Itachi and Obito won't start the fight off looking at. Even though he deals with the clone quickly.



PhantomSage said:


> Turns around and deals with it BEFORE A SUSANOO ARMS COMES AND CRUSHES HIM, when the activation itself is instant and the attack is also extremely quick, Obito has failed against this type of attack.


Susanoo does not form instantly, it's not even close. Obito has alredy had experience fighitng with in CQC superior to Itachi. He deals with the clone quickly. Senses itachi's susanoo presence, goes intangible, this cause itachi's Susanoo hand to go through him, then outspeeds itachi's susanoo and warps him  to the boxland.


PhantomSage said:


> What? Having a stronger Sharingan doesn't mean anything when crows are swarming you can completely disorienting and blocking your LOS. You can't see through crows with Sharingan.


You said the crows would swarm aroung him, then put him in a genjutsu, then I responded by saying the genjutsu would be broken easier by obito due to him having a stronger sharingan than sasuke(at the time)


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 7, 2016)

Obito has this in the bag, he outlasts Itachi.

Phasing Kamui is faster than anything Itachi has, as it occurs on the speed of thought.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 7, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Still yet to give me proof of a weaker sharingan putting a stronger sharingan in genjutsu.
> 
> 
> He formed the rasengan prior to using FTG, not after and he landed where the kunai was, which was under Obito's back.
> ...




Tsukuyomi wouldn't be easy to break at all considering someone like Danzo who had Shisui's sharingan suggested that it would've worked on him. 

Sasuke breaking Tsukuyomi could be due to:

1. CS (senjutsu) buff inside the genjutsu   
2. Itachi went easy (Compare it to the ones he used on Kakashi back in part 1 and in war arc, it's clearly different)


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 7, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Tsukuyomi wouldn't be easy to break at all considering someone like Danzo who had Shisui's sharingan suggested that it would've worked on him.
> 
> Sasuke breaking Tsukuyomi could be due to:
> 
> ...


Yeah, but Obito has Hashirama's cells and for all intents and purposes he should be blind but wasn't. The potency of his jutsu is probably on a different scale to Itachi, only reason why Kakashi didn't get squashed was because Obito couldn't use phasing Kamui. 

At which point he becomes Asuma level 

Itachi loses to any version of an Obito that can use phasing kamui, I mean that also applies to nearly anyone in the Narutoverse with the exception of Rikoudo tiers and maybe Kakashi (only due to him having the other half of the eye).


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## Final Jutsu (Dec 7, 2016)

Itachi has no counter to Kamui so Obito still wins.  Not a knock on Itachi,  Kamui is simply too hax.


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 7, 2016)

Assume for a moment even Obito was hit by Tsukuyomi, would it even do anything? The guy probably had 3-4x the chakra Nagato or Kisame did solely based on his feats in the War Arc.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 7, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Tsukuyomi wouldn't be easy to break at all considering someone like Danzo who had Shisui's sharingan suggested that it would've worked on him.
> 
> Sasuke breaking Tsukuyomi could be due to:
> 
> ...


Dude he's talking about 3t genjutsu, because were aware Itachi can freely move while doing it and I think phantom's point is that it would stun him so Itachi could attack. I'm aware it would take time for Obito to break out of tsukuyomi, but also remember Itachi has to maintain the genjutsu, he can't freely move while doing it, but he lack proof to sugget a weaker sharingan genjutsu would work on a stronger sharingan. Though Obito would escape due to him being an uchiha and having a kekkei genkai, he probably due it faster and better than sasuke then sasuke as he has a stronger sharingan and senju cells.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 7, 2016)

professor83 said:


> This is where people delude themselves. Had obito wanted itachi dead he would have been dead . It would have been nine members vs 1  sick itachi.  And people act as if itachi accomplished anything in his whole 9 years in akatsuki. The question remains why couldn't itachi do anything about obito or akatsuki? Obito got everything he wanted until nagato fell for a talk no jutsu.



What? Most of the Akatsuki trivialized Obito by deeming him as nothing more than a clown because from what they were told, he was simply a clown who was lucky enough to have joined the Akatsuki. Considering how Obito chose to delay revealing his identity to Kisame, this is such an erroneous premise that it isn't even worth addressing.


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## Dr. White (Dec 7, 2016)

Itachi can clearly control the magnitude of Tsukuyomi. It isn't one size fits all. The whole point is him having complete control of the mental domain for 72 hours. Kakashi and Kisame both imply Itachi could have killed Kakashi, Kakashi directly stating it and Kisame being surprised as to how he didn't collapse and KO.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 7, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Still yet to give me proof of a weaker sharingan putting a stronger sharingan in genjutsu.


What? This is Argumentum ad Ignorantium.
Anyways, genjutsu can stun him.
Kurenai's genjutsu trapped Itachi for a second, before he broke out.
We came extrapolate this to say that genjutsu will stun him to say the least.

PS. He cut off Oro's arm while Oro was in genjutsu.


> He formed the rasengan prior to using FTG, not after and he landed where the kunai was, which was under Obito's back.


He still had to swing his arm.


> To even suggest something is nigh instantaneous, that said thing has to at least be faster or moving at the speed of light(even then something that happens instantaneous is still ridiculously quicker than the light).





> The difference is, Minato's teleportation is actually instantaneous while Itachi's Susanoo activation isn't even faster than light.



But Susanoo arm is faster than Minato forming a Rasengan and swinging his arm, I've showed you the scans for this.



> Wait what? Itachi and Obito won't start the fight off looking at. Even though he deals with the clone quickly.


Itachi kept up with B and KCM Naruto in CQC.
Saying he will be dispatched by Obito before Obito is grabbed by Susanoo limb is baseless.



> Susanoo does not form instantly, it's not even close. Obito has alredy had experience fighitng with in CQC superior to Itachi. He deals with the clone quickly. Senses itachi's susanoo presence, goes intangible, this cause itachi's Susanoo hand to go through him, then outspeeds itachi's susanoo and warps him to the boxland.



So he deals with Itachi's clone before a 1/1000th second and then some? Lmao, you're acting as if the clone is going to be clowned with a single punch.



> You said the crows would swarm aroung him, then put him in a genjutsu, then I responded by saying the genjutsu would be broken easier by obito due to him having a stronger sharingan than sasuke(at the time)



Even without the genjutsu it would still disorient him tho


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## Dr. White (Dec 7, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Assume for a moment even Obito was hit by Tsukuyomi, would it even do anything? The guy probably had 3-4x the chakra Nagato or Kisame did solely based on his feats in the War Arc.


Mindfucks bypass durability and physical prowess. It's all down to mindfuck resistance/willpower, and Obito is like candidate numero uno in regards to being susceptible to major mind manipulation.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 7, 2016)

He could force Obito to watch Rin getting Raikiri'd 24/7, slow mo and in HD.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Serene Grace (Dec 7, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> What? This is Argumentum ad Ignorantium.


The irony, it's actually the other way around, as you made the statement of 3T genjutsu working on MS with no proof. You're just assuming a stronger version of something would be susceptible to a weaker version of something without proof.



PhantomSage said:


> Anyways, genjutsu can stun him.
> Kurenai's genjutsu trapped Itachi for a second, before he broke out.
> We came extrapolate this to say that genjutsu will stun him to say the least.
> 
> PS. He cut off Oro's arm while Oro was in genjutsu.


1. No proof itachi was even trapped in her genjutsu

2. It may stun him, but it would be extremely brief, defiently broken before itachi can do anything.

3. You're oro example makes no sense, as he didn't have a sharingan to help him break out, so you're just speculating at this point.



PhantomSage said:


> He still had to swing his arm.


Swing? He was already above Obitos back, all he had to do was push the rasengan down which only takes a couple of milliseconds



PhantomSage said:


> But Susanoo arm is faster than Minato forming a Rasengan and swinging his arm, I've showed you the scans for this.


You showed be a scan of Itachi's Susanoo formation speed, not of his susanoo hand.



PhantomSage said:


> Itachi kept up with B and KCM Naruto in CQC.


And Obito kept up with BM Naruto, Gai, Kakashi and bee in CQC. Which one looks better to you? Let's also not forget that in that whole encounter Naruto and Bee were just talking to Itachi. And you're suggesting that itachi's susanoo and his clone would not Itachi himself( who is notably faster than his susanoo form).



PhantomSage said:


> Saying he will be dispatched by Obito before Obito is grabbed by Susanoo limb is baseless.


How? Unless Itachi's clone indivually is equivalent to Bee, Naruto, Kakashi and gai then no it isn't baseless. He deals with the clone with much ease then he senses and reacts to Itachi's susanoo hand that lacks the feats to suggest it would catch.



PhantomSage said:


> So he deals with Itachi's clone before a 1/1000th second and then some? Lmao, you're acting as if the clone is going to be clowned with a single punch.


His susanoo hand doesn't move at the speed of lighting nor does his actual susanoo move at the speed of lightning, his susanoo only forms at that speed.



PhantomSage said:


> Even without the genjutsu it would still disorient him tho


By what basis? Because it worked on Sasuke, someone with less battle experience and a weaker sharingan, that automatically means it would work on Obito? Unsubstantiated.

Itachi can not replicate Minato's feat without teleportation or some sort of space time jutsu. Minato used FTG and was only a spilit second faster then obito, Itachi and his lightining susanoo activation is not gonna cut it, even if this susanoo hand is faster than Minato, the math doesn't add up for Itachi to be able to counter it in time.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 7, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> The irony, it's actually the other way around, as you made the statement of 3T genjutsu working on MS with no proof. You're just assuming a stronger version of something would be susceptible to a weaker version of something without proof


Yes I have, Ive proved it to you using logical downscaling.


> . No proof itachi was even trapped in her genjutsu


He was wrapped in her tree in a panel before he reflected it.


emanthespriggan1234 said:


> 2. It may stun him, but it would be extremely brief, defiently broken before itachi can do anything.


Thats exactly my point.


emanthespriggan1234 said:


> You're oro example makes no sense, as he didn't have a sharingan to help him break out, so you're just speculating at this point.



You said Itachi cant move while putting someone in genjutsu. That instance along proves that wrong.


emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Swing? He was already above Obitos back, all he had to do was push the rasengan down which only takes a couple of milliseconds


Go look at the gif you like to post so much. He clearly swings it.


emanthespriggan1234 said:


> You showed be a scan of Itachi's Susanoo formation speed, not of his susanoo hand.


That moment when you realize that Itachi protected Sasuke from Muki Tensei using Susanoo whereas Sasuke could form Susanoo before his rasengan speed which rekt Obito.


emanthespriggan1234 said:


> And Obito kept up with BM Naruto, Gai, Kakashi and bee in CQC. Which one looks better to you? Let's also not forget that in that whole encounter Naruto and Bee were just talking to Itachi. And you're suggesting that itachi's susanoo and his clone would not Itachi himself( who is notably faster than his susanoo form).


Doesnt matter, he's not taking down the clone in time.


emanthespriggan1234 said:


> How? Unless Itachi's clone indivually is equivalent to Bee, Naruto, Kakashi and gai then no it isn't baseless. He deals with the clone with much ease then he senses and reacts to Itachi's susanoo hand that lacks t


Addressed above.


emanthespriggan1234 said:


> His susanoo hand doesn't move at the speed of lighting nor does his actual susanoo move at the speed of lightning, his susanoo only forms at that spee


But the arms speed is more or less equal to the swing speed of rasengan, proved this already.


emanthespriggan1234 said:


> By what basis? Because it worked on Sasuke, someone with less battle experience and a weaker sharingan, that automatically means it would work on Obito? Unsubstantiated.


It would disorient him, or confuse him, or block LOS to help for further attacks.


emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Itachi can not replicate Minato's feat without teleportation or some sort of space time jutsu. Minato used FTG and was only a spilit second faster then obito, Itachi and his lightining susanoo activation is not gonna cut it, even if this susanoo hand is faster than Minato, the math doesn't add up for Itachi to be able to counter it in time.



Obito himself disagrees with you.

Add i. the fact that Obito r ET retreated from Itachi in "Road to Ninja" which was supervized by Kishi and its clear how the author intends this to be.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 7, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Not sure why you're comparing a 14-year-old Obito, who clearly lacked battle experience compared to his adult version. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if a 14-year-old was getting tricked by a ninja that's skillfull and strong enough to hold the title of Hokage. I also don't know why you used Minato as an example, the whole point of my argument is to be able to beat Obito on a 1 on 1 situation, you need incredible speed and space-time ninjutsu, something Minato had and something Itachi lacks. Itachi could know every little detail about Obito if he wanted, but if he doesn't have a legit counter to Kamui then he loses. It's also pretty baseless to say Itachi's clone feinting would work the same way as Minato's utilization of FTG did against obito.



 Minato's statement was rather ambiguous. Minato mentioned that one would require a unique array of abilities which indicates that the statement has an equivocal nature because unique abilities isn't exclusive to just S/T Ninjutsu. Itachi's diversionary tactics are by far within the realms of extraordinary because no ninja in the manga has ever replicated his feats.

 Also, Itachi is not deficient in speed, that's a huge contradiction to the manga. His ninjutsu execution is among the highest within the manga outside of Rikudou characters. That said, the reason why Minato's feint succeeded wasn't primarily based on speed, but because FTG Lvl 2 evoked confusion and lack of clarity for Obito. The Databook Entry of Hiraishin Level 2 cements this:



			
				Databook 4 said:
			
		

> A technique that applies the “_Hiraishin no Jutsu_ (Flying Thunder God Technique)”. In the moment of charging into the face of the opponent, throw a kunai and with that, CHARGE. Teleport to the location of the kunai that has flown to the opponent’s back, to vanish instantly from the opponent’s eyes and take their rear. *The sudden disappearance of the enemy (yourself, the user), in addition to receiving an unexpected attack, will cause the opponent great confusion, a two-stage attack*. It is an evolved variation of space-time ninjutsu!!



 Minato required the speed to escape Obito's line of sight instantaneously which would evoke confusion and then implicitly required the speed to strike Obito before he could regain composure and react appropriately. Itachi can accomplish the same thing via bunshin + Susano'o blindside attack because his bunshins and ninjutsu execution have perplexed EMS Sasuke and Nagato before they could react. Of course, Susano'o is also much faster than Minato, so striking him down before Obito can rationalize the situation is a possibility.

 What's interesting is how you fallaciously argued that Itachi lacks the ability to counter Kamui even though Obito's admission confirmed that Itachi could decisively kill Obito had he been aware of his secrets which includes Kamui.


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 8, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> What? Most of the Akatsuki trivialized Obito by deeming him as nothing more than a clown because from what they were told, he was simply a clown who was lucky enough to have joined the Akatsuki.


Their leader pain did not  and guess who he was taking orders from?



> Considering how Obito chose to delay revealing his identity to Kisame, this is such an erroneous premise that it isn't even worth addressing.


Considering all even the so called most intelligent guy was playing in obitos hands and doing free labour for him he did not need to honestly. Also that would have made the great nations more aware . 
Fact remains if obito really wanted to dispose off itachi he easily would have .


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## Dr. White (Dec 8, 2016)

professor83 said:


> Considering all even the so called most intelligent guy was playing in obitos hands and doing free labour for him he did not need to honestly. Also that would have made the great nations more aware .
> Fact remains if obito really wanted to dispose off itachi he easily would have .


Is that why he admitted that without keeping secrets from Itachi he would have been killed by him, or that he waited for Itachi to die before sending in the big guns to Konoha


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 8, 2016)

Those people who say obito loses to itachi because of statement  are the  same who will bring  fanfictions like itachi didnot want to hurt. . . .and . ..fanfictions when it comes to jiraiya Vs itachi when itachi clearly admitted inferiority.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 2


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## Dr. White (Dec 8, 2016)

professor83 said:


> Those people who say obito loses to itachi because of statement  are the  same who will bring  fanfictions like itachi didnot want to hurt. . . .and . ..fanfictions when it comes to jiraiya Vs itachi when itachi clearly admitted inferiority.


OR those people know what story context is. And I never said the statement is why he would win. I used both instances to shit on your notion that Obito could have just made a phone call and had Itachi assassinated. There are so many holes in that.


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 8, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Is that why he admitted that without keeping secrets from Itachi he would have been killed by him, or that he waited for Itachi to die before sending in the big guns to Konoha


He could not find that secret in 9 years simple as that
I think made myself clear if obito wanted itachi dead itachi would have been dead  . one order kill to pain itachi he is a traitor that was it .
Kakazu and hidan went to do in land of fire. Maybe to take a hot bath?

Oh wait itachi stopped sasori and when they went after the konoha ninjas

What did itachi actually accomplish?
He was stalling people recruiting members playing in obitos hands his entire life I would love to have that kind of spy tbh

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dr. White (Dec 8, 2016)

professor83 said:


> He could not find that secret in 9 years simple as that
> I think made myself clear if obito wanted itachi dead itachi would have been dead  . one order kill to pain itachi he is a traitor that was it .
> Kakazu and hidan went to do in land of fire. Maybe to take a hot bath?
> 
> ...


A.) He was a double agent. Do you know what implies?
B.) All those missions were bjuu related and had nothing to do with Itachi.
C.) None of this proves how Obito would have had Itachi killed. The fact that he was a thorn in OBito's side to attacking Konoha, and the latter waited until Itachi's death to do so implies the direct opposite of him being able to have Itachi killed willy nilly.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 8, 2016)

professor83 said:


> Their leader pain did not  and guess who he was taking orders from?



Yes, because he was the leader and Obito needed to influence the leader to ensure that the most effectual decisions would be made to further their own interests. Only sharing such information with the leader makes perfect sense to establish trust and reassurance in Obito's own decisions, but that sort of information was excluded from the rest of Akatsuki, including Kisame who knew about the Moon's Eye Plan.



> Considering all even the so called most intelligent guy was playing in obitos hands and doing free labour for him he did not need to honestly. Also that would have made the great nations more aware .
> Fact remains if obito really wanted to dispose off itachi he easily would have.



Why wouldn't he? Itachi masqueraded his true intentions from even Nagato, so clearly, Itachi furthered the Akatsuki's goals to avert people from questioning his own whereabouts. Even so, this is impertinent to the discussion. What's relevant is that none of the Akatsuki would have a reason to gang up on Itachi and since your argument hinges on that fact, you have nothing that invalidates Obito's own admission of inferiority.


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## Android (Dec 8, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Saying that Obito can break out instantaneously is a baseless assertion.
> Did you even read my argument? I said that there is no doubt that Obito can break out of genjutsu, juts that it can stall him for a second at least, a second is crucial in these battles and will leave him disoriented.


The problem is Tobi can also use the same trick on Itachi , genjutsu him , teleports behind him and than warp him up  
Or does this method only works when Itachi uses it?


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 8, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> The problem is Tobi can also use the same trick on Itachi , genjutsu him , teleports behind him and than warp him up
> Or does this method only works when Itachi uses it?



 No because why would Itachi fall for it? Someone as incisive as Itachi wouldn't fall for Genjutsu, especially when it involves using his own tricks.


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 8, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> A.) He was a double agent. Do you know what implies?


If you mean between village and uchiha it has nothing to do with obito. If you mean as a spy he has no feats


> All those missions were bjuu related and had nothing to do with Itachi.


 he was a part of terrorist organistion so obviously he was helping needy people and doing good things in all those years after all he was a "saint"


> None of this proves how Obito would have had Itachi killed. The fact that he was a thorn in OBito's side to attacking Konoha, and the latter waited until Itachi's death to do so implies the direct opposite of him being able to have Itachi killed willy nilly.


He was the boss of pain who controlled the entire akatsuki  not to mention pain himself was leagues beyond itachi .pain would have obviously killed him . Pain disposed off every one including his master who was a problem in his plan.


UchihaX28 said:


> Yes, because he was the leader and Obito needed to influence the leader to ensure that the most effectual decisions would be made to further their own interests. Only sharing such information with the leader makes perfect sense to establish trust and reassurance in Obito's own decisions, but that sort of information was excluded from the rest of Akatsuki, including Kisame who knew about the Moon's Eye Plan.


Pain obviously was willing to destroy anyone who was threat to his plan and honestly itachi knew who was the  real leader. Other akastuki are just pawns who do as their masters say


> Why wouldn't he? Itachi masqueraded his true intentions from even Nagato, so clearly, Itachi furthered the Akatsuki's goals to avert people from questioning his own whereabouts. Even so, this is impertinent to the discussion. What's relevant is that none of the Akatsuki would have a reason to gang up on Itachi and since your argument hinges on that fact, you have nothing that invalidates Obito's own admission of


Itachi did nothing to akatsuki plans what did he do? Delay for some months that too nine tails was the last bijju that needed to be captured? 
What does itachi hiding his intentions from nagato has to do with anything ? 
All akatsuki were doing what the leaders asked of did not they? 
Konan with knowledge and preparation  near to destroying the clown was not she ? knowledge doesnot totally specify a one on one scenario without  prep or ambush does it? Even so itachi was a spy who could have destroyed obitos plan just by leaking intel . 
Result: Obito got sasuke obito had nine tails but nagato fell for narutos words . Itachi died accomplishing nothing.  Instead all he did was help akatsuki .


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## JiraiyaFlash (Dec 8, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> What? Itachi's healthy here.


Still a MS user.. We clearly saw what happened to "Healthy" Sasuke at Kage Summit (And his MS is more fresh than Itachi's in that time) 


PhantomSage said:


> Are you saying a healthy Itachi can't use Ribcage Susanoo and grab someone?


I never said this ? But these aint gonna make Itachi definite winner suddenly ?!




PhantomSage said:


> Edo doesn not increase your speed.


Physical Speed -> Not
Susano Usage Speed -> Yes , cuz there is no more paralyzing effect




PhantomSage said:


> An explosion and Rasengan are vastly different things.


Definitely Rasengan even more dangerous and internal type of damage my friend.




PhantomSage said:


> And MS Obito isn't the strongest in the Akatsuki, Pain is stronger than him.


Pain -> finds Jiraiya deadly to them, finds Kakashi threatfull for them, finds Naruto and 6th Taled Kyuubi the most powerfull thing he faced. 
Teen Obito -> He able to control kyuubi and give decent fight agains White Flash
MS Tobi -> Run akatsuki organazation behind the curtains. He has the balls for announce 4th Great Ninja War on Kage Summit
War-Arc Obito  -> He was able to Stall KCM2 Naruto + Kakashi + Gai + Bee in the same time w/o using any rinne jutsu ?!  

Pain is the first God-Mode villain of this series and definitely powerfull. But Obito created for being something else and give superior feats and acheivements to verse (IMO).

ITachi or Pain =/= KCM2 or BM Naruto

Obito >= Kakashi + KCM2 Naruto + Gai (ıf he summon Gedo Mazo then he can play with K. Bee tpp like he did per canon).

Pretty significant gap my friend.


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## Android (Dec 8, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> No because why would Itachi fall for it? Someone as incisive as Itachi wouldn't fall for Genjutsu, especially when it involves using his own tricks.


Didn't a scrub like Hebi Sasuke have a genjutsu battle with Itachi ? 
Anyway, why wouldn't Itachi fall for Tobi's genjutsu , and why would Tobi fall for Itachi's in the 1st place .Where do you draw the line here?


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## Sapherosth (Dec 8, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah, but Obito has Hashirama's cells and for all intents and purposes he should be blind but wasn't. The potency of his jutsu is probably on a different scale to Itachi, only reason why Kakashi didn't get squashed was because Obito couldn't use phasing Kamui.
> 
> At which point he becomes Asuma level
> 
> Itachi loses to any version of an Obito that can use phasing kamui, I mean that also applies to nearly anyone in the Narutoverse with the exception of Rikoudo tiers and maybe Kakashi (only due to him having the other half of the eye).




Those Hashi cells sure as hell didn't help Obito overwhelm Kakashi when they were fighting with genjutsu. At the very least, if those boost exists with regards to genjutsu, we would have seen it.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 8, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Itachi can clearly control the magnitude of Tsukuyomi. It isn't one size fits all. The whole point is him having complete control of the mental domain for 72 hours. Kakashi and Kisame both imply Itachi could have killed Kakashi, Kakashi directly stating it and Kisame being surprised as to how he didn't collapse and KO.





72 hours was never implied to be its limitation.


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 8, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Mindfucks bypass durability and physical prowess. It's all down to mindfuck resistance/willpower, and Obito is like candidate numero uno in regards to being susceptible to major mind manipulation.


Yeah he was pretty founded in his ideals and etc.


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 8, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Those Hashi cells sure as hell didn't help Obito overwhelm Kakashi when they were fighting with genjutsu. At the very least, if those boost exists with regards to genjutsu, we would have seen it.


I think 100% Kurama subjugation counts


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## Android (Dec 8, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Did Obito at any time kill the people he was facing in CQC? No, but he held his own against them. Suggesting he can take out a clone before 1/1000th of a second then the time it takes for an arm to manifest which was faster than EMS Sasuke's activation speed that was faster than Minato's Rasengan speed which Obito failed to "sense" and dodge.


 
 

If this is you're method to how Itachi will land a hit on Obito i wish you the best of luck then , becuase as of right now , Uh-uh , ain't gonna happen .
Not really sure why you're using Obito's feats as a teen when Itachi is fighting adult Obito here , the same obito who could teleport from a point blank Jinton , teleport inside , save Sasuke , and then teleports outside again .
Itachi isn't touching Obito anytime soon here , perior . Again , a group of people with far more brains , power , speed , IQ , CQC , tricks  than Itachi went to hell and back just to touch him , with the only thing that allowed that to happen is Kakashi's Kamui and a lot of luck and coincidence .

I wish you the best of luck arguing that Itachi stands a chance here , my dear friend


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## Parallaxis (Dec 8, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> If this is you're method to how Itachi will land a hit on Obito i wish you the best of luck then , becuase as of right now , Uh-uh , ain't gonna happen .
> Not really sure why you're using Obito's feats as a teen when Itachi is fighting adult Obito here , the same obito who could teleport from a point blank Jinton , teleport inside , save Sasuke , and then teleports outside again .
> Itachi isn't touching Obito anytime soon here , perior . Again , a group of people with far more brains , power , speed , IQ , CQC , tricks  than Itachi went to hell and back just to touch him , with the only thing that allowed that to happen is Kakashi's Kamui and a lot of luck and coincidence .
> 
> I wish you the best of luck arguing that Itachi stands a chance here , my dear friend


But... but... this is Teen Obito. It's supposed to be Teen with MS.


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## Android (Dec 8, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> But... but... this is Teen Obito. It's supposed to be Teen with MS.


Kamui's speed is still the same


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## Sapherosth (Dec 8, 2016)

That awkward moment when you try to hype Obito up to be some sort of untouchable God, you intentionally forget he was tagged by Konan and Fuu&Torune who are far inferior to Naruto and Co

Or did Obito's Kamui improve?


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 8, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> That awkward moment when you try to hype Obito up to be some sort of untouchable God, you intentionally forget he was tagged by Konan and Fuu&Torune who are far inferior to Naruto and Co
> 
> Or did Obito's Kamui improve?


Itachi cannot keep up an attack rate for >5 minutes without being exhausted beyond belief, his stamina wouldn't allow it. Fuu/Torune were underestimated by Obito, something he wouldn't do against Itachi.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 8, 2016)

You're a persistent one, aren't you?



PhantomSage said:


> I provided proof, yet you still ignore the evidence in front of your goddamn eyes.
> You have no evidence that having an MS immediately means "lol no genjutsu can even affect me in the slightest",


No, you haven't and until you provide that said proof, my point still stands. Burden of proof is on you, as you made the claim yet have failed to prove it. Also I'm not saying no genjutsu would affect an MS user, I'm saying a 3T genjutsu wouldn't do anything to an MS user and until I get proof for what you're saying my point stays the same.



PhantomSage said:


> Are you really this fucking stubborn?


How so?



PhantomSage said:


> Last sentence. "But also remember itachi has to maintain the genjutsu he can't freely move".


 I was talking about Tsukuyomi, not 3T genjutsu.



PhantomSage said:


> You're not relativity.
> You can't prove Kurenai : Itachi is the same ratio as Itachi : Obito. Hell, even Kakashi with a borrowed Sharingan immediately escaped Obito's genjutsu.


What the hell does this have to do with, this argument?



PhantomSage said:


> No, that's a biased ass assumption that an intelligent fighter like Itachi can't take advantage of a couple seconds. You're just spewing drivel now.


Not a couple of seconds, likely a second or less as you have yet to prove to me that it would be anything to obito anyways, you're just assuming that Itachi's 3T genjutsu would work on Obito's MS because it worked on Sasuke's 3T genjutsu, which is just baseless. What the hell is Itachi gonna do in this time span.



PhantomSage said:


> Pretty sure he used his Susanoo hand. @Sapherosth has the scan.


Still doesn't justify how fast his susanoo hand is, lol come on dude this was a Susanoo activation speed, I don't know what you're trying to get by just ignoring scans.



PhantomSage said:


> Did Obito at any time kill the people he was facing in CQC? No, but he held his own against them. Suggesting he can take out a clone before 1/1000th of a second then the time it takes for an arm to manifest which was faster than EMS Sasuke's activation speed that was faster than Minato's Rasengan speed which Obito failed to "sense" and dodge.



 So because he didn't kill them, does that change the fact he was keeping up with all four of them at the same time? Lol this is classic, that you're trying to compare a clone to BM Naruto, Killer Bee, Gai and Kakashi, him keeping up with them alone gives an indication that Itachi's clone that a weaker Kakashi was dealing with, won't do shit to Obito in CQC. OH MY GOD, this is the last time I'm saying this. Itachi's Susanoo activation is lighting speed NOT his Susanoo's physical speed nor the speed of its hand, the feat you showed me was a speed feat for his Susanoo activation, not his Susanoo hand, as Sasuke was close by Itachi so his Susanoo activated fast enough to protect Sasuke, his hand didn't physically move nor did his Susanoo in that scan, so it isn't a speed feat for his Susanoo hand.
Lol, at you using 14 year old Obito feats to justify him losing to Itachi. Adult Obito is clearly superior to 14 year old Obito in almost every way, so using feats done by his adult version would make more sense. I'm also not sure how you expect him to react or sense something that's instantaneous, that's nigh impossible lets also not forget Obito didn't even understand the mechanics of FTG after Minato used it with his rasengan. Lets also not forget that Obito has reacted to A's shunshin. Though I think @cctr9 summed it up for me.



PhantomSage said:


> Baseless drivel.


 Explain what's baseless here,simply using obvious math.



PhantomSage said:


> I hope you aren't fucking serious.
> 
> Oh, because Obito has MS he can automatically see through objects now? What the fuck?



You're just suggesting it would work because it worked on Sasuke which is.............baseless. And let's say Itachi catches him with it, how long would he be trapped for, because it wouldn't make sense of it to be longer or equal to the time it stunned Sasuke as MS Obito is superior in almost every way. I don't think it would stun him long enough for Itachi to really do anything or for any ground to be taken.


@PhantomSage you're an amazing debater and I got a lot of respect for you, but some of the stuff you're saying in this thread are just ridiculous and the instances you give where Itachi wins are just through illogical or unorthodox ways.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 8, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Itachi cannot keep up an attack rate for >5 minutes without being exhausted beyond belief, his stamina wouldn't allow it. Fuu/Torune were underestimated by Obito, something he wouldn't do against Itachi.







Wasn't 5 minutes at all. Just the timing.





If Obito wants to warp, he has to do it faster than Itachi's Susano hand grab, which is impossible considering he wasn't even able to warp Konan before she could get her explosives off.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Dec 8, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> his Susanoo's physical speed nor the speed of its han


Wasn't 69 y/o Danzo dodging those Susanoo strikes ? 
Anyway , forget about phasing . Obito is able to teleport inside a point blank Jinton , in and out saving Sasuke from getting dust'ed , w/o anyone understanding what happened .He also reacted to one of A's fast Shunshins as well .
Phasing is even much faster than self teleporting via Kamui .


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## Android (Dec 8, 2016)

Kamui self teleportation <<< Kamui phasing in terms of speed .
Either of which are enuff to deal with Susanoo .


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## Serene Grace (Dec 8, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> That awkward moment when you try to hype Obito up to be some sort of untouchable God, you intentionally forget he was tagged by Konan and Fuu&Torune who are far inferior to Naruto and Co
> 
> Or did Obito's Kamui improve?


Fuu and Torune? Lol, take off your wank glasses man this is getting hilarious, Obito was outnumbered 2v1 yet they didn't tag him once. If anything thanks, this only proves my point that Obito is deadly in CQC.


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## Android (Dec 8, 2016)

Torune and Fu didn't tag shit , in fact , Tobi clowned them with just one move and made them hit each other , and then he negged them both with Kamui


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## Sapherosth (Dec 8, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Fuu and Torune? Lol, take off your wank glasses man this is getting hilarious, Obito was outnumbered 2v1 yet they didn't tag him once. If anything thanks, this only proves my point that Obito is deadly in CQC.



He had to sacrifice an arm to teleport Torune. Plus they were stopping him from warping them when they were coordinating. 

That's tagging in my eyes.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 8, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> He had to sacrifice an arm to teleport Torune.


Because of a special kekkei genkai, that not much people have a counter to? 



Sapherosth said:


> Plus they were stopping him from warping them when they were coordinating.


Show me where he "tried" to warp them. He only fought with them in CQC, forced Torune to try a self destruct himself, them he warped him and Fuu, he never attempted to warp them outside of that.



Sapherosth said:


> That's tagging in my eyes.


You have a strange definition of "tagging".


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 8, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Wasn't 5 minutes at all. Just the timing.
> 
> If Obito wants to warp, he has to do it faster than Itachi's Susano hand grab, which is impossible considering he wasn't even able to warp Konan before she could get her explosives off.


That's because Konan has an ability that allows her to constantly mess with Obito's phasing ability, Itachi doesn't have anything like that. If you notice in your scan, she's continuously flooding his intangible area so he's unable to reappear. Itachi has to do that with a Susano'o? Obito can just freely go anywhere he wants and reappear there. But more to the point, Obito admitted he wasn't taking her seriously, something that he will be doing against Itachi.


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## Dr. White (Dec 8, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> That's because Konan has an ability that allows her to constantly mess with Obito's phasing ability, Itachi doesn't have anything like that. If you notice in your scan, she's continuously flooding his intangible area so he's unable to reappear. Itachi has to do that with a Susano'o? Obito can just freely go anywhere he wants and reappear there. But more to the point, Obito admitted he wasn't taking her seriously, something that he will be doing against Itachi.


The point is that Kamui can be exploited via good timing, something Itachi happens to be amazing at. He also does have the tools via genjutsu and clones to be able to exploit Obito. If Obito goes to warp a clone and gets totsuka sniped it's GG. He also will be messed up if he tries to warp Itachi's clone and has to fight on two fronts.

Not saying Itachi automatically does that, but Kamui is not unbeatable if the opponent has good enough diversionary and counter tactics.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Clowe (Dec 8, 2016)

Obito vs Itachi is reaching Minato vs Itachi levels around this board. 

Itachi cult is still alive and strong, Itachi loses both of these match ups

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 8, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> The point is that Kamui can be exploited via good timing, something Itachi happens to be amazing at. He also does have the tools via genjutsu and clones to be able to exploit Obito. If Obito goes to warp a clone and gets totsuka sniped it's GG. He also will be messed up if he tries to warp Itachi's clone and has to fight on two fronts.
> 
> Not saying Itachi automatically does that, but Kamui is not unbeatable if the opponent has good enough diversionary and counter tactics.


That's where you are wrong, Itachi doesn't have the physical speed and/or attacking speed to do so. Fuu/Torune and Konan were situational examples at best and in both scenarios he wasn't fighting them with the same level of intensity and/or focus as he would Itachi. 

A fact all of you unbiased Itachi fans are ignoring.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 8, 2016)

Yeah, I have to concur here, Obito wasn't serious abt ting them and actually deciphered Fuu and Torune's simplistic strategy. To put things in perspective, Obito is a High Kage ninja while Fuu and Torune are two Elite Jonins. There's no conceivable way that the duo would even challenge Obito.


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## Dr. White (Dec 8, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> That's where you are wrong, Itachi doesn't have the physical speed and/or attacking speed to do so. Fuu/Torune and Konan were situational examples at best and in both scenarios he wasn't fighting them with the same level of intensity and/or focus as he would Itachi.
> 
> A fact all of you unbiased Itachi fans are ignoring.


I don't agree. Itachi has attacking speed (in combo with deception) with movement able to shadow Bee and immediately dodge his counter sword swing, Itachi countered his 7 sword style with only a Kunai (something sauce needed a sword for and came out more injured), and Itachi's clone feint / jutsu casting speed has outsped sharingan pre cog on more than one occassion. Not to mention even outdid Sage sensing in an enclosed environment. Not really buying Itachi doesn't have the speed surprise cuck Obito via clones or genjutsu. Especially when his Susano activation speed is nigh Kirin level and could even tag a Nagato (through diversion once again) that just got done lol restraining Bee and KCM Nardo.

Also not buying people try undersell Kamui exploitation by claiming Obito wasn't serious vs an Akatsuki member. Obito has had Kamui exploited vs Minato, Konan, and Anbu Elite Jonin. That is not some gimp Obito has due to IC. They are viable ways of beating Kamui exploited by ninja much weaker, slower, and overall less battle efficient than Itachi.


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## LightningForce (Dec 9, 2016)

To be fair on Itachi, he does have *prep* here granted to him in this scenario. The possibilities on how he could/would ambush Obito are endless, so it's not entirely a one-sided scenario.

That said, even with full knowledge on his abilities, he'd set up a clone, while hiding the real body, to attack Obito head-on and capitalize on the moment he tries to grab the clone while he's solid. There's no way Itachi could ever defeat him in a direct confrontation, and he definitely knows that.

I'm actually giving it to Itachi here because of the prep granted to him, coupled with his intellect. It's one of the best advantages one can give to a genius shinobi with powerful dojutsu capabilities.

An additional consideration:
If Pain-Arc Kakashi *with prep* could take out a vigilant Deva Path, were it not for the plot-induced Asura interception, it's very likely Itachi can also can employ a strategy where he feints Obito with a clone, thinking it's the real Itachi, and slap his shit with Susano'o the moment he sees Obito warping the clone away.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Obito himself disagreed with you inside his head, contemplating to himself, saying how lucky he was.



Obito just said he kept his promise, nothing to do with Itachi's power. Though my question is answered: the Itachi cult which distorts manga context and engages in selective reading is still around, albeit in reduced numbers.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 9, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Yeah, I have to concur here, Obito wasn't serious abt ting them and actually deciphered Fuu and Torune's simplistic strategy. To put things in perspective, Obito is a High Kage ninja while Fuu and Torune are two Elite Jonins. There's no conceivable way that the duo would even challenge Obito.




Despite the fact that those two having no S/T ability or high reflexes/speed, they lasted long enough. The mere fact that someone who's considered as "High Kage" had to sacrifice an arm to take out those 2 is laughable. 

I was only using it as an example of how Obito cannot just lol warp people without the possibility of a counter attack. Konan's example is the thing I wanted to highlight more. She countered the moment he tries to warp, which can be done.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 9, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Despite the fact that those two having no S/T ability or high reflexes/speed, they lasted long enough. The mere fact that someone who's considered as "High Kage" had to sacrifice an arm to take out those 2 is laughable.
> 
> I was only using it as an example of how Obito cannot just lol warp people without the possibility of a counter attack. Konan's example is the thing I wanted to highlight more. She countered the moment he tries to warp, which can be done.



Torune didn't counter-attack, he had the advantage because he took a preemptive action to defend himself with his venomous beetles. Obito knew about it and had other means of defeating him including Katon, Genjutsu, and Mokuton. Obito deliberately took the risk because they weren't worth his time and him simply swatting away his arm to warp Fuu cements that.

To suggest Obito would be so imprudent as to ignorantly sacrifice his arm is a silly notion when Obito was sagacious enough to fool Itachi and command the entire Akatsuki.

 Best defensive technique in the manga, Hashirama's powerful DNA, Juubi sized Katon, and god-like clairvoyance all make Obito worthy of the High Kage title, especially when he managed to overwhelm Minato during their encounter.


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## Azula (Dec 10, 2016)

This argument "oh you just have to hit him when he materializes to attack lol" is weak because Obito himself is aware of his weakness.
This is why Danzo's bodyguards failed, Obito immediately saw that they were baiting him and he turned the tables by tricking them in return and they ended up damaging themselves.

Obito will always be on the lookout for traps/distractions looking to exploit his weakness and will respond accordingly.

The clone strategy is weak too. Obito never absorbs a clone instead he attempts to destroy the clones and find out the real one.
(See the fight with Naruto after he initiates juubi revival through gedo mazo)
His warping is fast enough to swallow explosions mid way.

Clones aren't defeating him. ck

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 3


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