# Darth Vader enters the Old Republic



## trance (Apr 19, 2014)

Let's see how Vader would fare against the powerhouses from thousands of years ago? 

S1: He takes them all on gauntlet style in an all out match not being healed after each match.

S2: Same as scenario one except he is healed after each match.

S3: He takes them all on gauntlet style in a lightsaber duel without being healed after each match.

S4: Same as scenario three except he is healed after each match.\

This is pre-Mustafar Vader btw.

Discuss.


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## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

TOR or KOTOR?  

If its KOTOR, he kills everyone.

If its TOR.

Vader defeats most of the Dark Council and the Jedi Council.  He'd lose to the Hero of Tython and the Emperor though.  He'd arguably lose to Darth Malgus, Darth Nox, The Emperor's Wrath, and the Barsen'thor.  He clears Satele though imo.

Revan is a difficult one because although he's a powerhouse force wise his saber technique is pretty weak (a Niman user according to Drew Karp).


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## TheForgottenPen (Apr 20, 2014)

Uh, are we counting kotor 2 in this as well?


(including this fucker here too?)


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## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

^I mean Nihilus obviously annihilates with his pinky


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## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> TOR or KOTOR?
> 
> If its KOTOR, he kills everyone.



Might you explain how?

Especially since he never came close to reaching his peak?

, , and  aren't losing out in raw power.

I link everything of relevance argument wise to the respective profiles, please actually read them so I don't need to write it all out 

Dueling?  What's that matter when 2 of the three I mentioned tend to resort to overkill force powers first anyway?  Are you working under the assumption that the PIS or CIS from in series is somehow protecting the party that's dwarfed in raw power still?

Because some of these fuckers getting away with duels when they're utterly outclassed in force power ability will never cease to baffle me.



> Vader defeats most of the Dark Council and the Jedi Council.  He'd lose to the Hero of Tython and the Emperor though.  He'd arguably lose to Darth Malgus, Darth Nox, The Emperor's Wrath, and the Barsen'thor.  He clears Satele though imo.



This I'd say is pretty spot on.



> Revan is a difficult one because although he's a powerhouse force wise his saber technique is pretty weak (a Niman user according to Drew Karp).



Weak lightsaber technique?

So... you call  weak?

As far as quantifiable feats of skill go?  This shits on a fair chunk of the series in terms of speed, precision, muscle memory, and control.  Not just this poorly quantified "such and such mastery of these styles" shit.  He even redirected it back into the fucker's chest.


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## TheForgottenPen (Apr 20, 2014)

I'm actually interested in where you think Revan has poor lightsaber skills. 

I mean, such a statement has to come from SOMEWHERE


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## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Might you explain how?
> 
> 
> Especially since he never came close to reaching his peak?
> ...



Nihilus godstomps Anakin

Revan practices Niman, a form that is not particularly strong in dueling.  His best feat is outdueling an Emperor's guard and TKing the Emperor.  Impressive feats, but not as impressive as defeating Darth Tyranus.  Unless Malak is on the Star Forge he doesn't have a chance in hell of defeating Vader.



> Dueling?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not really that unheard of.  I know Revan is your favorite character, but if we go by feats he cannot defeat Anakin.  Mace redirected lightning as well.

Anakin beats him in TK, and in saber combat.



TheForgottenPen said:


> I'm actually interested in where you think Revan has poor lightsaber skills.
> 
> I mean, such a statement has to come from SOMEWHERE




"*However, it is my unofficial opinion that Revan would generally have used "Form VI - Niman".* This form works well for anyone who is intelligent and adaptable, as Revan obviously was. It has no real weaknesses, and even though it is not as aggressive as other forms it enables the user to unleash powerful Force abilities more easily during combat. Revan was skilled in lightsaber combat, but knew true strength came from using all the other Force abilities in conjunction with lightsaber combat. Form VI would allow Revan to spend less time focusing on lightsaber skills, and more time developing other Force powers."
―Drew Karpyshyn

Its pretty clear Revan was no Yoda when it came to lightsaber combat. 
Also the only person who Revan's ever defeated in raw sabers was a non-force sensitive Imperial Guardsman.


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## TheForgottenPen (Apr 20, 2014)

-TK'ing the emperor
-Not as impressive as beating Dooku.

I...don't understand. 

And is the quote from Drew the source of you saying that Revan was *weak* in lightsaber combat? Because I'm seeing little to no downplaying of his saber prowess

EDIT: plus, unofficial was in that statement too.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Nihilus godstomps Anakin



Gotcha.



> Revan practices Niman, a form that is not particularly strong in dueling.  His best feat is outdueling an Emperor's guard and TKing the Emperor.



His best feat is redirecting sith lightning faster than Malak's back into Vitiate's chest.

Niman?  Who cares.  That shows a level of precision, control, speed, and muscle memory far better than most other feats I've gleaned from the series.



> Unless Malak is on the Star Forge he doesn't have a chance in hell of defeating Vader.



Could you at least offer a rebuttal that refutes the arguments I propose through my blog?  Because by feats?  I can at least note Anakin's raw power doesn't suffice here.



> Not really that unheard of.  I know Revan is your favorite character, but if we go by feats he cannot defeat Anakin.  Mace redirected lightning as well.



Please don't try calling me biased.  I don't agree with you.  Just explain your stance in a manner that actually conveys a credible argument.

As for Windu?

Yeah, through his superconducting loop.

I have Fang's blog for quick reference on that.

It's hardly a display of any meaningful skill on Windu's part in sword play there.

Not claiming Revan's above Winud, given Sidious' lightning from comparable range to Sidious' is serious shit.  I'm just saying you're underselling Revan where Anakin could not have replicated Windu's feat at this point in time.

How can he, when he couldn't perceive Windu or Sidious' speed.



> Anakin beats him in TK, and in saber combat.



I'd agree with the force power if Anakin ever lived to see his full potential fulfilled.

Not so much here.  Read my blog, refute the argument, or concede the point.

Click the links from my last post, please, I'm actually enjoying the debating, don't fuck it up by not actually following through via proper conduct.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Apr 20, 2014)

why are there so many star wars threads at the moment?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

No fucking clue.


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## trance (Apr 20, 2014)

Because Star Wars is fucking awesome?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

Yeah, true, but we've never had threads in this volume.


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## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

TheForgottenPen said:


> -TK'ing the emperor
> -Not as impressive as beating Dooku.
> 
> I...don't understand.



He TK'ed the Emperor because the Emperor was distracted.  So yes defeating Dooku is more impressive.



> And is the quote from Drew the source of you saying that Revan was *weak* in lightsaber combat? Because I'm seeing little to no downplaying of his saber prowess
> 
> EDIT: plus, unofficial was in that statement too.



He's relatively weak in sabers.  His focus was studying the force.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> His best feat is redirecting sith lightning faster than Malak's back into Vitiate's chest.



Which is impressive why?



> Niman?  Who cares.  That shows a level of precision, control, speed, and muscle memory far better than most other feats I've gleaned from the series.



Why does this impress you?  The Emperor is clearly not a speed demon.



> Could you at least offer a rebuttal that refutes the arguments I propose through my blog?  Because by feats?  I can at least note Anakin's raw power doesn't suffice here.



What do you want me to rebut?  Malak is inferior to Anakin.  He has inferior hype and inferior feats.



> Please don't try calling me biased.  I don't agree with you.  Just explain your stance in a manner that actually conveys a credible argument.



Revan's feat had nothing to do with muscle memory or saber mastery.  He batted Vitiate's casual lightning aside, but when the Emperor got serious Revan got stomped. 



> As for Windu?
> 
> Yeah, through his superconducting loop.
> 
> ...



Again Anakin not perceiving Windu and Sidious' speed is n-canon.  And Vitiate isn't all that fast.  Did you even read my post?




> I'd agree with the force power if Anakin ever lived to see his full potential fulfilled.
> 
> Not so much here.  Read my blog, refute the argument, or concede the point.
> 
> Click the links from my last post, please, I'm actually enjoying the debating, don't fuck it up by not actually following through via proper conduct.



Calm down.


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## TheForgottenPen (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> He's relatively weak in sabers.  His focus was studying the force.



Again, I'm still trying to find out why you say he's weak in saber combat. That quote meant little to nothing. You are just repeating "hes weak in saber, he's weak in sabers" but you have no evidence to back your claim.


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## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

TheForgottenPen said:


> Again, I'm still trying to find out why you say he's weak in saber combat. That quote meant little to nothing. You are just repeating "hes weak in saber, he's weak in sabers" but you have no evidence to back you up.




He struggled against a non-force sensitive Imperial Guard.  

I am saying he's relatively weak in sabers.  If he came up against Sidious, Dooku, Anakin, Mace, or stars help him Yoda, he'd get eviscerated in a raw sabers match up.   Lucky for him he has an amazing command of the force.


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## shade0180 (Apr 20, 2014)

> TheForgottenPen



^I agree with this guy at least chaos has the blogs to back up his claims.


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## trance (Apr 20, 2014)

Wasn't Scourge receiving visions of either Vitiate or Revan emerging victor from their battle?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Which is impressive why?



It's not like I didn't link the profiles or anything with relevant speed calcs linked in the speed section or anything...





I can even provide you with a speed gotten from that lovely holo recording on the SF with both it, the solar mass rising into it, and the general trajectory of the ships being tracked on it at high speeds.

I have all my bases covered, they're this fast.



> Why does this impress you?  The Emperor is clearly not a speed demon.



...



> What do you want me to rebut?



I linked the profiles so you could actually read the relevant info links.



> Revan's feat had nothing to do with muscle memory or saber mastery.



...

Do you even know how skill works? 



> He batted Vitiate's casual lightning aside, but when the Emperor got serious Revan got stomped.



And his casual lightning is slower than Malak's... how?

And even the getting "stomped" part is a great feat for his raw power.

Given he wasn't reduced to a fucking ashpile by a pissed off Vitiate's full powered Lightning.

You know, like he should have been given that's what happened to Nyriss' purely human body after the Lightning of her own making broke her force shield.



> Again Anakin not perceiving Windu and Sidious' speed is n-canon.  And Vitiate isn't all that fast.  Did you even read my post?



...

Is it too much to ask you actually click the links I provide that lead to more links that explain my stance in full?

I heard you, you never addressed anything relevant.

Do what I asked, click the links, then we can actually debate if I'm right or wrong.



> Calm down.



I am calm.

I'm just a touch annoyed I provide links... and you seem to ignore them.

The links contain character profiles, which contain various links to calc blogs, screen shots of feats, and argument blogs.

Read them, then you can rebuttal.


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## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Wasn't Scourge receiving visions of either Vitiate or Revan emerging victor from their battle?



Revan, Scourge and Meetra combined.  Revan alone was no match for the Emperor, but with the others they could have won.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

Right, here's  interjection for you



			
				Fang said:
			
		

> Niman aka Form VI isn't a weak style. It just blends all the other Forms before it into a single manageable martial arts that doesn't have any advantage or disadvantage.
> 
> Niman is the preferred style of Consulars, Seers, and Sages but it really doesn't matter. The trade-off is its user has a better ability to combine and chain lightsaber attacks with Force powers.
> 
> ...


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## trance (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Revan, Scourge and Meetra combined.  Revan alone was no match for the Emperor, but with the others they could have won.



It doesn't matter because that was Hero of Typhon anyway.


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## TheForgottenPen (Apr 20, 2014)

Can someone show me a scan of the page that said that the only person Revan ever beat with just saber skills was only an imperial guardsman? 

Why was that? Did he have some force restriction or something? Or did Revan feel like dicking around?

And the quote from Drew was an unofficial one. Why are we even discussing Niman in the first place?


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## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> It's not like I didn't link the profiles or anything with relevant speed calcs linked in the speed section or anything...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Malak's Force Drain's attack speed isn't all that great considering even regular old blasterbolts are massively hypersonic.  Relativistic Force users has always been a thing.  Anakin has the hype and the feats to back it up.  



> Do you even know how skill works?



Well aware.  People like Kenobi, and Anakin have deflected lightning before.



> And his casual lightning is slower than Malak's... how?



And this matters why?  



> Why does it matter?
> 
> And even the getting "stomped" part is a great feat for his raw power.
> 
> ...



That's great and all but you have yet to prove why Revan would be able to defeat Anakin.  Kasim states that a superior duelist is likely to triumph over a superior force user more times than not.  And Revan's defensive Force techniques will not help him defeat Anakin when he comes charging in with Djem So.



> Is it too much to ask you actually click the links I provide that lead to more links that explain my stance in full?



Please.



*This* is a Revan respect thread.  Yours is pitiful in comparison.  I have read this and still believe Anakin edges a victory.



> I heard you, you never addressed anything relevant.
> 
> Do what I asked, click the links, then we can actually debate if I'm right or wrong.



Because saying "Look at this", isn't an argument.




> I am calm.
> 
> I'm just a touch annoyed I provide links... and you seem to ignore them.
> 
> ...



I already read them.  You've told me nothing I don't know.


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## trance (Apr 20, 2014)

IIRC, during his time as a Sith Lord, Revan had a duel with Malak and removed his lower jaw in the process.


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## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

TheForgottenPen said:


> Can someone show me a scan of the page that said that the only person Revan ever beat with just saber skills was only an imperial guardsman?



He also beat Mandalore the Ultimate.  But again not really that impressive.



> Why was that? Did he have some force restriction or something? Or did Revan feel like dicking around?



No he just cut through the guardsman.  Granted these guys are strong as shit and amped by the Emperor, but they are no Jedi Masters.


> And the quote from Drew was an unofficial one. Why are we even discussing Niman in the first place?




Because Drew wrote the Revan novel.  His opinion is>anyone who posts on this board.


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## TheForgottenPen (Apr 20, 2014)

Why the everloving fuck would you bring a *comicvine* thread here? Atleast say why is Chao's thread less valid then ANOTHER FORUM's respect thread


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## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> IIRC, during his time as a Sith Lord, Revan had a duel with Malak and removed his lower jaw in the process.



^Prove that he didn't use the Force.


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## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

TheForgottenPen said:


> Why the everloving fuck would you bring a *comicvine* thread here? Atleast say why is Chao's thread less valid then ANOTHER FORUM's respect thread



Because its more well organized, and has accolades from canon sources rather than n-canon fan calculations and opinions.


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## TheForgottenPen (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Because Drew wrote the Revan novel.  His opinion is>anyone who posts on this board.



Good job. You found a statement that Drew said himself has little to no weight.


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## TheForgottenPen (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> ^Prove that he didn't use the Force.



Then can you ateast prove that Revan didnt use the force against the guardsman?
Like post a scan?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Malak's Force Drain's attack speed isn't all that great considering even regular old blasterbolts are massively hypersonic.  Relativistic Force users has always been a thing.  Anakin has the hype and the feats to back it up.



News to me regarding blaster bolts.

Where's that from? 

And how's a force drain of 1.5 C not great?  



> Well aware.  People like Kenobi, and Anakin have deflected lightning before.



From who?



> And this matters why?



FTL Force Lightning in a rapid fire interval being deflected as he did is pretty damn impressive?

You're free to show me why it isn't.  I mostly know KOTOR era.

No one's shown me anything that leads me to believe the PT is all that amazing yet outside of fuckers like Plagueis and up's showings.



> That's great and all but you have yet to prove why Revan would be able to defeat Anakin.



The best scalable feat to Anakin in any incarnation I'm privy to is Galen Marek's force lightning charging a cannon that fucked up a ISD.

I can make a decent case for Darth Revan having more raw power than Nihilus.

I have made a decent case for it.

It's your job to show me where I'm wrong here.



> Kasim states that a superior duelist is likely to triumph over a superior force user more times than not.



How does that even work? 

You're telling me, say, in a hypothetical situation where a career swordsman with city block level raw power can trump a fucker dishing out megatons casually?

See, this kind of PIS in the same vain when a character forgets they have TK is pretty damn annoying.



> And Revan's defensive Force techniques will not help him defeat Anakin when he comes charging in with Djem So.





> Please.



Oh, I've seen that.

It's an amazing collection of his feats and accolades, but you misunderstand what I linked.  It's not a respect thread detailing all he can do, just arguments showcasing what he can do at his peak.



> *This* is a Revan respect thread.  Yours is pitiful in comparison.  I have read this and still believe Anakin edges a victory.



So, what's he have to scale to that's above Marek's Force Lightning Feat?

Just point it out, I'm happy to concede if you do.



> I already read them.  You've told me nothing I don't know.



Then it's your job to explain to me why Anakin's feats of raw force power are more impressive.


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## TheForgottenPen (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Because its more well organized, and has accolades from canon sources rather than n-canon fan calculations and opinions.



And you did notice....that our ChaosTheory was referenced in the same thread you just posted? And you discredit the same dude's "non canon calculations?"

are you sure you read the comicvine thread?


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## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

TheForgottenPen said:


> Good job. You found a statement that Drew said himself has little to no weight.



More weight than anything that'll be typed in this thread considering he...you know created the character.



TheForgottenPen said:


> Then can you at least prove that Revan didnt use the force against the guardsman?
> Like post a scan?



Yeah give me a sec, I gotta find the quote.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Because its more well organized, and has accolades from canon sources rather than n-canon fan calculations and opinions.



...

See, this kind of cop out?

Doesn't fly here.

We use calcs for all series.  Star Wars is no exception.  Double Standards are something that we try to keep out.

The results aren't something I'm saying are absolute (hell, I'm not telling you to take them as canon), but they're certainly more accurate than the eyeballing guesstimates most vs assholes partake in.

Because... when you guesstimate, you're just doing a really rough calc anyway, just far less precise and without any actual concrete math.

If I were over on KMC?  Maybe I'd have to acquiesce and not use the tools I have at my disposal, but you're over here, where we try to be scientific (and probably fail horribly) because some of us find evaluating these feats fun.


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## shade0180 (Apr 20, 2014)

> Because Drew wrote the Revan novel. His opinion is>anyone who posts on this board.



Wait what is this guy serious?? authors intent is a fuckton more contradicting than feat we fucking use in this board or any other board do you have any fucking idea why we throw out author intent most of the time because even if they are the writer they get wrong on the physics of the verse more than 50% of the time... they don't  care about the law of physic and once they talk about it they start contradicting their own writing....


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## TheForgottenPen (Apr 20, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> ...
> 
> See, this kind of cop out?
> 
> ...



I'm not even sure why he is validating the comicvine thread while discrediting calcs made from you, since you are actually referenced in the post along with your calc. Am I missing something here?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

TheForgottenPen said:


> I'm not even sure why he is validating the comicvine thread while discrediting calcs made from you, since you are actually referenced in the post along with your calc. Am I missing something here?



Huh, didn't notice that 

Last I saw the thread, it wasn't there.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Apr 20, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> How does that even work?
> 
> You're telling me, say, in a hypothetical situation where a career swordsman with city block level raw power can trump a fucker dishing out megatons casually?
> 
> See, this kind of PIS in the same vain when a character forgets they have TK is pretty damn annoying.



it...doesn't 

in the very same book where that's said, Bane as a student easily crushes whatever Force defenses his opponent has and kills him with TK 

the student was noted to be more skilled in a duel, which obviously didn't matter

that little saying can only work if the gap in Force power isn't so significant where one just trumps the other with a thought, like Anakin vs Kenobi in ROTS


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## TheForgottenPen (Apr 20, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Huh, didn't notice that
> 
> Last I saw the thread, it wasn't there.



Recognition throughout the webs! 

Nice.


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## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> ...
> 
> See, this kind of cop out?
> 
> ...



I don't like to debate calcs because its ridiculous in a universe as massive as Star Wars with hundreds of writers and several different mediums. 




shade0180 said:


> Wait what is this guy serious?? authors intent is a fuckton more contradicting than feat we fucking use in this board or any other board do you have any fucking idea why we throw out author intent most of the time because even if they are the writer they get wrong on the physics of the verse more than 50% of the time... they don't  care about the law of physic and once they talk about it they start contradicting their own writing....



Wut.  George Lucas specifically says his universe isn't supposed to be calced.  Star Wars was designed at its core to NOT make sense and to not be made sense of.  A lightsaber for example is impossible.  Bringing real world physics into a world like that is pants on head retarded.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

Great, now people can parrot and butcher my arguments that aren't part of the OBD


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## shade0180 (Apr 20, 2014)

> Wut. George Lucas specifically says his universe isn't supposed to be calced. Star Wars was designed at its core to NOT make sense and to not be made sense of. A lightsaber for example is impossible. Bringing real world physics into a world like that is pants on head retarded.



Wait.. wait.. Looks at left, looks at right, deep breaths.. okay yep yep I guess we have another ancient retard.  ...


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## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> I don't like to debate calcs because its ridiculous in a universe as massive as Star Wars with hundreds of writers and several different mediums.



I respect that, just noting that really doesn't fly here.

It'd be like me going over to KMC and trying to force the fuckers to use calcs, even if they may or may not want to.  That'd be ignoring how their rules and precedents work.  I can try to change them through debate, but it's ultimately the community that decides how to work the hobby.

vs debating isn't concrete enough a hobby to try and pretend any given set of rules and precedents on a given forum can't or don't work.


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## TheForgottenPen (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> I don't like to debate calcs because its ridiculous in a universe as massive as Star Wars with hundreds of writers and several different mediums.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



calcs were made for bigger universes than star wars in the OBD. So where is this criticism coming from?


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## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> News to me regarding blaster bolts.
> 
> Where's that from?
> 
> ...



Prove his lightning is FTL.  All I saw was his drain being Light speed.

ICS states that turbolaser bolts move at c, and blaster rifles and pistols are just mini-versions of that.  





> You're free to show me why it isn't.  I mostly know KOTOR era.



Cool



> No one's shown me anything that leads me to believe the PT is all that amazing yet outside of fuckers like Plagueis and up's showings.



Yoda is blatantly stated to be the strongest Jedi in history.  Mace's statements that Anakin is approaching him already puts Anakin and Revan's level. 




> The best scalable feat to Anakin in any incarnation I'm privy to is Galen Marek's force lightning charging a cannon that fucked up a ISD.
> 
> I can make a decent case for Darth Revan having more raw power than Nihilus.
> 
> ...



You can't scale Nihilus to Revan.  



> How does that even work?
> 
> You're telling me, say, in a hypothetical situation where a career swordsman with city block level raw power can trump a fucker dishing out megatons casually?
> 
> See, this kind of PIS in the same vain when a character forgets they have TK is pretty damn annoying.



Yes.  Stop trying to quantify Star Wars with calcs.  Lets not forget that Obi-Wan gets pwned by Cad Bane regularly, Pre Vizla fights on par with Maul, ect. ect.





> Oh, I've seen that.
> 
> It's an amazing collection of his feats and accolades, but you misunderstand what I linked.  It's not a respect thread detailing all he can do, just arguments showcasing what he can do at his peak.



I understand the use of both.



> So, what's he have to scale to that's above Marek's Force Lightning Feat?
> 
> Just point it out, I'm happy to concede if you do.



Huh?



> Then it's your job to explain to me why Anakin's feats of raw force power are more impressive.



He collapsed a cathedral, and the feat we were discussing earlier.  Not to mention tanking Dooku's lightning and force powers.  That being said Revan's hype is superior.  Anakin would still hold the edge in sabers.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

TheForgottenPen said:


> calcs were made for bigger universes than star wars in the OBD. So where is this criticism coming from?



The fact GL also said we shouldn't be trying to make sense of his vs kind of invalidates the concept of even in series vs battles let alone trying to use it for interseries.

Which, naturally, given we're already violating every other author's intent on the planet by having these threads is pants on head retarded to bring up anyway.


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## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

TheForgottenPen said:


> calcs were made for bigger universes than star wars in the OBD. So where is this criticism coming from?



I don't think any fictional universe has the number of writers, authors, and artists that Star Wars does.  

SWTOR is the largest video game in history, there are thousands of comics, and hundreds of novels.  If we use calcs and scaling Yoda should be able to force push a planet and Palpatine and his battle should have been flinging around pods the size of the Senate building/ coruscant.


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## shade0180 (Apr 20, 2014)

> He collapsed a cathedral, and the feat we were discussing earlier. Not to mention tanking Dooku's lightning and force powers. That being said Revan's hype is superior. Anakin would still hold the edge in sabers.



You know with this just one reply you are already applying physics in the verse...  I thought you can't use physics for the verse??..

or are we the only one banned from doing it since it is too complicated for you?


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## TheForgottenPen (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> *You can't scale Nihilus to Revan. *
> 
> .


Nice arguement. Atleast try to pick apart his arguement and disprove it.


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## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> The fact GL also said we shouldn't be trying to make sense of his vs kind of invalidates the concept of even in series vs battles let alone trying to use it for interseries.
> 
> Which, naturally, given we're already violating every other author's intent on the planet by having these threads is pants on head retarded to bring up anyway.



I think when debating series vs. series calcs become an evil necessity to debating.  But when debating in verse it becomes ridiculous.


----------



## shade0180 (Apr 20, 2014)

wait what... seriously your defense is getting retarded every post...


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Prove his lightning is FTL.  All I saw was his drain being Light speed.



If you're just going to ignore the scaling, why are you in the OBD?

I'm happy to debate you, but you're stuck to our conventions here.



> ICS states that turbolaser bolts move at c, and blaster rifles and pistols are just mini-versions of that.



Gotcha.  Probably worth using in later blogs then.  I'll try finding scans.

Thanks for the info,



> Yoda is blatantly stated to be the strongest Jedi in history.  Mace's statements that Anakin is approaching him already puts Anakin and Revan's level.



So Windu feels Anakin's raw power at his peak matches Yoda's

Yeah, if you can provide the relevant quote, I'd concede that then.



> You can't scale Nihilus to Revan.



I really can.  Being a force wound doesn't prevent him from being an entity Surik can gauge.

Especially when she was directly linked to the attack that razed katarr on the Ravager.  Kind of hard not to notice how powerful that shit is, but you're free to pretend being a force wound makes him too anomalous. 



> Yes.  Stop trying to quantify Star Wars with calcs.  Lets not forget that Obi-Wan gets pwned by Cad Bane regularly, Pre Vizla fights on par with Maul, ect. ect.



Nah.  I'll continue, this kind of bullshit you gave examples of?

Star Wars isn't the only series where some feats make fuck all sense.  Marvel and DC are equally guilty of this.

Dragon Ball, YYH, OP and others are too.



> He collapsed a cathedral, and the feat we were discussing earlier.



Size?  Can't imagine that it escapes kiloton level unless you're talking like... some span of kilometers in size.



> Not to mention tanking Dooku's lightning and force powers.



And how powerful is Dooku?  What are his best feats?  Because his best feat as we understood it here just got eclipsed by powerscaling him to Anakin's padawan TK feat.



> That being said Revan's hype is superior.  Anakin would still hold the edge in sabers.



Wouldn't deny that one, I was mostly rebutting your suggesting his dueling is weak.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

TheForgottenPen said:


> Nice arguement. Atleast try to pick apart his arguement and disprove it.




Drew Karpshyn didn't even play KOTOR II when he wrote the book.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> I think when debating series vs. series calcs become an evil necessity to debating.  But when debating in verse it becomes ridiculous.



Once more, I respect that opinion.

Just noting for you that it's worthless around here.


----------



## TheForgottenPen (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> *I don't think any fictional universe has the number of writers, authors, and artists that Star Wars does.
> *



What? What about DC/Marvel comics? They have lots of different authors and writers. 



			
				Lord Stark;50426944 [B said:
			
		

> SWTOR is the largest video game in history[/B], there are *thousands* of comics, and *hundreds* of novels.



WHAAAAAAAAAAAT

this isn't touhou. You cant just say thousands of comics and expect us to believe that. And the swtor being the largest videogame in history reeks of bullshit


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Drew Karpshyn didn't even play KOTOR II when he wrote the book.



Death of the author is our modus operandi.

So what?

Who cares if he didn't read it.

The feats and statements still occurred.


----------



## shade0180 (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Drew Karpshyn didn't even play KOTOR II when he wrote the book.



who cares if he didn't play it if it is canon then that means it affects the story and it is part of that universe.

do you know how many writters of DC or Marvel didn't read the other published books for it before they wrote their story a lot of them .. that's why we get convoluted story telling from other perspective one example is the Jla story and the wonder woman story... they practically had writer contradicting each other in the same issue.. but both is canon to the story,,


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> If you're just going to ignore the scaling, why are you in the OBD?



Because this is an in-verse thread.  Not a nonsense verse v. verse thread.




> Gotcha.  Probably worth using in later blogs then.  I'll try finding scans.
> 
> Thanks for the info,


NP




> So Windu feels Anakin's raw power at his peak matches Yoda's
> 
> Yeah, if you can provide the relevant quote, I'd concede that then.



"This is Anakin Skywalker:
The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation.
The fastest. The strongest."

"Skywalker is
arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger.

^Nothing is stated about raw power.




> I really can.  Being a force wound doesn't prevent him from being an entity Surik can gauge.
> 
> Especially when she was directly linked to the attack that razed katarr on the Ravager.  Kind of hard not to notice how powerful that shit is, but you're free to pretend being a force wound makes him too anomalous.



Drew didn't even play/ read the script of KOTOR II.




> Nah.  I'll continue, this kind of bullshit you gave examples of?
> 
> Star Wars isn't the only series where some feats make fuck all sense.  Marvel and DC are equally guilty of this.
> 
> ...


----------



## TheForgottenPen (Apr 20, 2014)

Stark, you've been in the OBD longer then most of us in this thread, but why is it that we are the ones who's notifying you about how we operate here? Was it that different back in 2008?


----------



## TheForgottenPen (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> He can be powerscaled to Nihilus.
> 
> Sidious>/=Mace=Dooku>Nihilus.



Nah, cmon man, don't stop there. Atleast tell us WHY he is to be scaled to Dooku out of all people. Like dont get me wrong, the old man is pretty cool, but I would never ever ever ever EVER think to see the day where someone would say we should scale him to Nihilus. And him being above nihilus too?! Oh My God.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

TheForgottenPen said:


> What? What about DC/Marvel comics? They have lots of different authors and writers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



983 issues, 35 graphic novels, there are over 1000 comics.

^Hundreds of books


My apologies, GTA V beat it out last year.



shade0180 said:


> who cares if he didn't play it if it is canon then that means it affects the story and it is part of that universe.
> 
> do you know how many writters of DC or Marvel didn't read the other published books for it before they wrote their story a lot of them does.. that's why we get convoluted story telling from other perspective one example is the Jla story and the wonder woman story... they practically had writer contradicting each other in the same issue.. but both is canon to the story,,




Red herring.  DC and Marvel don't have one continuous timeline.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

TheForgottenPen said:


> Nah, cmon man, don't stop there. Atleast tell us WHY he is to be scaled to Dooku out of all people. Like dont get me wrong, the old man is pretty cool, but I would never ever ever ever EVER think to see the day where someone would say we should scale him to Nihilus. And him being weaker then nihilus too?! Oh My God.



Mace beat Sidious the most powerful Sith Lord in history as stated multiple times in canon.  Dooku is Mace's equal.

(I don't think anyone can be scaled to Nihilus because he's by far the greatest outlier in the Star Wars universe)



TheForgottenPen said:


> Stark, you've been in the OBD longer then most of us in this thread, but why is it that we are the ones who's notifying you about how we operate here? Was it that different back in 2008?



I haven't posted here in years honestly.  But back in my day calcs did not trump inverse feats and powerscaling.


----------



## TheForgottenPen (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> 983 issues, 35 graphic novels, there are over 1000 comics.



I..uh...concede to this. Wow thats alot of comics.


----------



## shade0180 (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Red herring.  DC and Marvel don't have one continuous timeline.



Except it does when they are story telling about a single issue.


----------



## TheForgottenPen (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Mace beat Sidious the most powerful Sith Lord in history as stated multiple times in canon.  Dooku is Mace's equal.
> 
> .



But this dosent make any sense. 

If Mace beat Sidious, and Dooku was Mace's equal, then that would mean that Dooku is superior to Sidious.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

TheForgottenPen said:


> I..uh...concede to this. Wow thats alot of comics.



Yeah the universe has gotten too big, which is why I hear there are talks of Disney cutting down what they consider canon.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

TheForgottenPen said:


> But this dosent make any sense.
> 
> If Mace beat Sidious, and Dooku was Mace's equal, then that would mean that Dooku is superior to Sidious.



And Anakin beat Dooku who curbstomped Kenobi.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Mace beat Sidious the most powerful Sith Lord in history as stated multiple times in canon.  Dooku is Mace's equal.



Vaapad was key to his ability to hold his own.

You're not playing "my game"

You're distorting facts to suit your needs.

Dooku doesn't possess anything that even let him try and contend with Sidious.  A>B>C logic doesn't work there.

If you're trying to make satire of my usage of it, at least use a cogent example.



> (I don't think anyone can be scaled to Nihilus because he's by far the greatest outlier in the Star Wars universe)



Hardly.

Nihilus' feats are kind of par as far as world razing events go in Star Wars.

He actively needs to powerscale from the Ambria planet razing feat because how his was done was abysmally unimpressive.

What Vitiate did, even if it required prep, was far more impressive, especially given he ended up absorbing all the energy the ritual garnered.



> I haven't posted here in years honestly.  But back in my day calcs did not trump inverse feats and powerscaling.



No offense, but some of the threads I read from "back in your day" were some of the worst pissing contests over large explosions being the end all be all I've ever read 

Sensui vs King Piccolo comes to mind.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

shade0180 said:


> Except it does when they are story telling about a single issue.



O rly?  


There are like 100 different supermans here brah 

Whoops triple post.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> And Anakin beat Dooku who curbstomped Kenobi.



You're trying your best, but these generalized examples of A>B>C logic don't work and kind of fail to satirize what's being done in this thread.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Vaapad was key to his ability to hold his own.
> 
> You're not playing "my game"
> 
> ...



Really?  Then why did he hold his own against Yoda twice, and wound him in their second engagement?




> Hardly.
> 
> Nihilus' feats are kind of par as far as world razing events go in Star Wars.
> 
> ...



Really?  Then explain to me how Yoda struggles to lift a crane in AOTCs?  Or how Sidious and his battle doesn't rip down Coruscant itself?  Both are canonically more powerful than Nihilus.
Also Nihilus' feat is impressive because he does it without prep.  And Vitiate with enough prep is a galactic life wiper.




> No offense, but some of the threads I read from "back in your day" were some of the worst pissing contests over large explosions being the end all be all I've ever read
> 
> Sensui vs King Piccolo comes to mind.



Not going to lie; this is true.  Its also one of the main reasons I left.


----------



## shade0180 (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> O rly?
> 
> 
> There are like 100 different supermans here brah
> ...



And how many issue is that.  hey seriously this is getting more retarded by the minute...


----------



## ThanatoSeraph (Apr 20, 2014)

I'd like to know where Dooku being equal to Mace is coming from too.

I mean, sure, they were apparently sparring partners, same with Qui-Gon. However... they were sparring partners earlier than either character was at their peak, and people generally don't go all out and try to kill each other in sparring matches anyway.

And IIRC, the mentions of them sparring against each other were pretty vague anyway. As in, no detail was given, just a statement of "oh hey this happened once".

It's telling that when they met in the Clone Wars, Dooku often chose to retreat.


----------



## TheForgottenPen (Apr 20, 2014)

shade0180 said:


> And how many issue is that.  hey seriously this is getting more retarded by the minute...


And I expected more quality debating in a SW thread. Dissapointed


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

shade0180 said:


> And how many issue is that.  hey seriously this is getting more retarded by the minute...



Those are all in alternate universes though.  That's why threads with superman specify which superman.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Really?  Then why did he hold his own against Yoda twice, and wound him in their second engagement?



Did Yoda take the offensive and hammer him with a full powered force attack?



> Really?  Then explain to me how Yoda struggles to lift a crane in AOTCs?  Or how Sidious and his battle doesn't rip down Coruscant itself?



I don't need to.

This happens all the time.

Why do Zues' punches harm the hulk when all they were destroying are a bunch of walls?  Why was Yusuke worried about some knives being psychically controlled by a minor superhuman when he's taken punches from Toguro?

I can go on and on.

I don't need you to tell me fiction isn't consistent.

The current OBD reconclies this kind of shit via "positive feedback" debating or whatever the fuck Willy calls it.



> Both are canonically more powerful than Nihilus.



And they have the feats to back it up too, your point?



> Also Nihilus' feat is impressive because he does it without prep.  And Vitiate with enough prep is a galactic life wiper.



You're missing the whole fact that all that energy his pre-nathema self needed prep for?

Now all his to command and fling around in his attacks.  Further corroborated by the TOR encyclopedia calling him the strongest sith lord of the KOTOR era.



> Not going to lie; this is true.  Its also one of the main reasons I left.



Figured as much


----------



## ThanatoSeraph (Apr 20, 2014)

> Really? Then why did he hold his own against Yoda twice, and wound him in their second engagement?



He never held his own against Yoda in AotC. He held him off for a short time before running away.

When did Dooku wound Yoda and what was the context?


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> I'd like to know where Dooku being equal to Mace is coming from too.



Dark Rendezvous.



> I mean, sure, they were apparently sparring partners, same with Qui-Gon. However... they were sparring partners earlier than either character was at their peak, and people generally don't go all out and try to kill each other in sparring matches anyway.



It states only Dooku and Yoda were able to best Windu.  And Qui-Gon is never stated to spar on par with Windu, I've looked into it and it's been confirmed as fanon.



> And IIRC, the mentions of them sparring against each other were pretty vague anyway. As in, no detail was given, just a statement of "oh hey this happened once".



"Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective."
Source: Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

"The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible?wickedness cut in red light."
Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous



> It's telling that when they met in the Clone Wars, Dooku often chose to retreat.



They met on Boz Pity once.  And that's questionably canon considering most of that issue is now n-canon.  Also in that one case Dooku retreats because the CIS is losing the battle not because Mace is superior.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

So... dueling feats.

Nothing about actual force powers like TK.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> He never held his own against Yoda in AotC. He held him off for a short time before running away.



Not really a short time.  Also in a prolonged duel Mace Windu would have arrived. 



> When did Dooku wound Yoda and what was the context?



Dark Rendezvous, he wounded him while Yoda had to rescue a Padawan.  Granted he was also amped.  But the same novel states that Mace was *arguably* on par with the Count.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Dark Rendezvous, he wounded him while Yoda had to rescue a Padawan.  Granted he was also amped.  But the same novel states that Mace was *arguably* on par with the Count.



So, was Yoda even paying attention?

Was it with a Blade, or was it force powers?

What was amping him?


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> So... dueling feats.
> 
> Nothing about actual force powers like TK.



"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure."



ChaosTheory123 said:


> So, was Yoda even paying attention?
> 
> Was it with a Blade, or was it force powers?
> 
> What was amping him?




Yes Yoda was paying attention.  It was with a blade.  Its been awhile since I read it but as I recall Yoda did a superman esq catching of the kid during which dooku glances his arm.
DS nexus on Vjun


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> "The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure."



That tells me nothing about how he actually compares to Yoda in force power combat.

Especially given it was already established, by you, that prior to Luke, Yoda was the strongest Jedi.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> That tells me nothing about how he actually compares to Yoda in force power combat.
> 
> Especially given it was already established, by you, that prior to Luke, Yoda was the strongest Jedi.



Its stated several times in the mythos Dooku is on par with Mace though (if not being slightly more powerful than him).  

Eh recent clone wars feats really do throw into question the validity of Mace's defeat over Sidious though.


----------



## ThanatoSeraph (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Dark Rendezvous.



It's been a while, but I do remember something along those lines. Now that you mention that, that should be where Dooku wounding Yoda comes from (although you'll likely to have replied to that by the time I finish writing this).



> It states only Dooku and Yoda were able to best Windu.


I'll reply to this below.



> And Qui-Gon is never stated to spar on par with Windu, I've looked into it and it's been confirmed as fanon.



Wasn't aware of that, thanks. That honestly does make more sense.




> "Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective."
> Source: Power of the Jedi Sourcebook



This encounters the problems I mentioned above. Namely, these are talking about versions when neither were at their peak, and in scenarios where they're just sparring. Plus it's very vague, just saying that it happened once.



> "The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible?wickedness cut in red light."
> Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous


And this seems to be referring specifically to lightsaber skill. Still impressive if taken at face value, but not taking into account Windu's use of shatterpoints, superconducting loop etc. Hell, it might not even take the state of mind aspect of vaapad into account.

Plus there's the fact that Windu's straight up feats are superior.


> They met on Boz Pity once.  And that's questionably canon considering most of that issue is now n-canon.  Also in that one case Dooku retreats because the CIS is losing the battle not because Mace is superior.



As in the Clone Wars/Labyrinth of evil contradiction, the events that aren't contradicted still occurred.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Its stated several times in the mythos Dooku is on par with Mace though (if not being slightly more powerful than him).



Ok... that means nothing regarding the fact it was only through Vaapad that Windu was doing what he did with Sidious.

Because Dooku sure as hell had no chance of overwhelming Sidious.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

Right, and have this from Fang I suppose.



			
				Fang said:
			
		

> Nothing is "n"-canon from teh Republic: Clone Wars tie-in series other then Adi Gallia's death being retconned. Dooku briefly dueled Windu, then had his MagnaDroid bodyguards grapple him and he left. The rest of the issue is still canon, Evan Piell was killed in the Siege arc of TCW in season 3 or 4 iirc, and that doesn't retcon out the Courscant Night series, just him surviving Order #66.
> 
> He seems to be peddling some serious bullshit other then it is true that Windu and Yoda were the "only" ones to have said in the PAST to be on par with Dooku in terms of lightsaber combat.
> 
> ...


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Ok... that means nothing regarding the fact it was only through Vaapad that Windu was doing what he did with Sidious.
> 
> Because Dooku sure as hell had no chance of overwhelming Sidious.



I mean considering how Sidious force chokes him this is true.  But the AOTCs novel does state Yoda's deflection of his lightning was "far from easy".


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> I mean considering how Sidious force chokes him this is true.  But the AOTCs novel does state Yoda's deflection of his lightning was "far from easy".



Yoda was able to contain Sidious' lightning, even if only for a few seconds before Sidious fed too much power into the growing sphere of energy.

Can't say "far from easy" really suggests Dooku's around Yoda's league if Yoda through great effort has the raw power to match Sidious in the first place.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

> As for Yoda being superior to Windu, no proof, no evidence, and no actual demonstration of that. Despite Sidious playing or holding back intentionally or not, I doubt he ever intended to purposely disarm himself to the point of getting disfigured by his own attacks from Windu.



203 INT. CORUSCANT-SENATE CHAMRER-MAIN ARENA-NIGHT 

YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts. 

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed. 

YODA: Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy. 

^Official screenplay.

2.  Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel?a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force?s light and dark sides.


3.  This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...


Also in TCWs, Sidious casually force chokes Dooku from light years away.    Mace has no TK feats superior to him.


> Yoda got disarmed, Yoda lacked clear reactions equivalent to Windu, and Yoda is certainly his equal in lightsaber combat? But his superior? No proof of that at all, ever.



Yeah no.  Blatantly stated that Yoda and Dooku both oustparred him.


> And you can check out the bottom of the RoTS novelization article on Wookiepedia. Stover very explicitly states that what's in the novel is in there from Lucas's direct input, what isn't, the same.



"G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie)."

^Elements originating with Lucas.  The point is that Anakin does not see the duel between Sidious and Mace in the canon version of the fight.  So no its not canon.  Watch Revenge of the Sith.  Anakin walks in AFTER the duel is concluded.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Yoda was able to contain Sidious' lightning, even if only for a few seconds before Sidious fed too much power into the growing sphere of energy.
> 
> Can't say "far from easy" really suggests Dooku's around Yoda's league if Yoda through great effort has the raw power to match Sidious in the first place.



Also where's the quote saying Revan>Nihilus.  I remembered an argument against it.


----------



## trance (Apr 20, 2014)

> Yeah no. Blatantly stated that Yoda and Dooku both oustparred him.



Isn't that the same databook that said Windu was considered equal to Yoda in *ability*, insight and command?


----------



## Adamant soul (Apr 20, 2014)

Well this thread was an "interesting" read. I'd just like to point out Revan being weak in lightsaber combat just because he uses Niman makes no sense. Soresu isn't supposed to be that good of a style in lightsaber combat either yet Obi Wan Kenobi whom (correct me if I'm wrong) is a Soresu specialist who was able to completely fend of Anakin's Djem So assault (a style dedicated to lightsaber combat if I'm not mistaken). So yeah the lightsaber form a duelist uses has no bearing on their actual skill with the weapon, it merely affects their fighting style.


----------



## TheForgottenPen (Apr 20, 2014)

I'm still waiting for that quote that stated that Revan used nothing but sabers, no force amplification or force anything, just raw sabering. Still waiting for that, and how much he struggled.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Also where's the quote saying Revan>Nihilus.  I remembered an argument against it.





Screen shots are all in there with the area of text that describes the shit I'm referencing highlighted.

Summation of core argument.

>Surik says his command of the force is the greatest she's ever met.  
>Last time she'd have seen him to gauge that is before the Mandalorian Wars.
>Ergo talking about "Darth Revan"
>She has herself, Sion, Traya, and Nihilus for comparison, was even directly attached to the attack that drained Nihilus of a sizable chunk of his power.  She's well acquainted with how much raw power they all have.
>Scourge acts as she predicted and gushes about his command, and puts it into the context of raw power

Revan's Raw Power as Darth Revan > Darth Nihilus'

Whether he wants to eat a force drain is a question I can't answer in this incarnation.  All I can show is that he's more than aware of Zelashiel's teachings that are pretty much the roots of the force drain we see through out KOTOR II.

And there's no question Revan from the novel has superior raw power than Nihilus.  All I have to do to prove that is point out that Revan wasn't reduced to a pile of ashes (like he should have been from an attack described as infinitely greater than Nyriss' own, which reduced herself to ashes) when his tutaminis failed to contain the bloodlusted lightning Vitiate sent on his ass.

Let's be blunt, outside of having Drew confirm for me that the command he used in Surik's dialogue and the command Scourge used in his are same in context and meaning (which, let's get real, occam's razor supports me in so many ways here, it's really laughable to try a semantics argument about the definition of the word) I have all my bases covered.

He was a drugged up prisoner.  To display some esoteric meaning of the word command (which the drugged up prisoner aspect automatically eliminates via occam's razor), that'd require he have the means of displaying his abilities outside of Scourge just being able to sense his power.  He didn't, Surik's not going to assume he did, and Scourge outright lauds his command in the context of raw power.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

TheForgottenPen said:


> I'm still waiting for that quote that stated that Revan used nothing but sabers, no force amplification or force anything, just raw sabering. Still waiting for that, and how much he struggled.



Oh, just reread the passage and am about to post a scan... he literally just kicked once, force pushed a fucker that was feeding off the power of the emperor and ended the "duel" in 2 strokes.  One being a feint, the other a slash to the neck.



He never struggled.  The only time the guard even managed to do anything in the duel matching saber to saber was parrying the obvious feint Revan was setting up to be an obvious feint.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Isn't that the same databook that said Windu was considered equal to Yoda in *ability*, insight and command?



And right after it says Mace considers himself a Padawan compared to Yoda.



Adamant soul said:


> Well this thread was an "interesting" read. I'd just like to point out Revan being weak in lightsaber combat just because he uses Niman makes no sense. Soresu isn't supposed to be that good of a style in lightsaber combat either yet Obi Wan Kenobi whom (correct me if I'm wrong) is a Soresu specialist who was able to completely fend of Anakin's Djem So assault (a style dedicated to lightsaber combat if I'm not mistaken). So yeah the lightsaber form a duelist uses has no bearing on their actual skill with the weapon, it merely affects their fighting style.



I mispoke, it doesn't make him weak but it doesn't make him strong.

"For superior balance, use the Niman form. This form has no specific strengths, but no weaknesses either."-Kavar
"It is often referred to as the diplomat's form because it is less intensive in its demands than other disciplines, allowing Jedi to spend more time developing their skills in perception, political strategy, and negotiation."-Draalig
"To compensate for the relaxed focus on bladework, Form VI encourages integrating Force powers into combat."-Manual for Students of the Force.

So in short he was no Mace, Yoda, or even Anakin or Kenobi when it came to raw swordsmanship.




ChaosTheory123 said:


> Screen shots are all in there with the area of text that describes the shit I'm referencing highlighted.
> 
> Summation of core argument.
> 
> ...



Several things wrong with this.  One it says his _command_ of the force.  Darth Nihilus didn't command the force it commanded him.  The entire plot of the first 7/8ths of KOTOR II is that the Lord of Hunger's ability has made him a slave to his own power.  He _has_ to feed, unlike Vitiate who has complete command over his hunger (he lives for over a thousand years without feeding).  

Darth Revan did not emerge until _after_ he and Malak left the known galaxy so this is incorrect. You do know he was dubbed Darth Revan by the Emperor himself right?

There's no proof that you can sense the force in Darth Nihilus.  Remember that even when he approaches Telos neither Atris nor him sense his presence.  Meanwhile in KOTOR I Bastilla senses Malak's approach from a different system.  Regardless, command of the force does not ~ raw force power, it equals mastery, and command of the force, which Nihilus did not have.



> Whether he wants to eat a force drain is a question I can't answer in this incarnation.  All I can show is that he's more than aware of Zelashiel's teachings that are pretty much the roots of the force drain we see through out KOTOR II.



"It cannot be taught"-Kreia 

Interestingly enough the only people who are not force wounds who could actually resist his attack are Ulic Qel Droma and Anakin both of which have resisted the Dark Reapers effects.



> And there's no question Revan from the novel has superior raw power than Nihilus.  All I have to do to prove that is point out that Revan wasn't reduced to a pile of ashes (like he should have been from an attack described as infinitely greater than Nyriss' own, which reduced herself to ashes) when his tutaminis failed to contain the bloodlusted lightning Vitiate sent on his ass.



That is not superior raw power at all.  Nihilus ripped the Ravager as well as four Leviathan-class vessels from Malachor orbit.



> Let's be blunt, outside of having Drew confirm for me that the command he used in Surik's dialogue and the command Scourge used in his are same in context and meaning (which, let's get real, occam's razor supports me in so many ways here, it's really laughable to try a semantics argument about the definition of the word) I have all my bases covered.



The very passage you posted confirms that command and connection to the force are two different things.  Connection is midi-chlorians(God save my soul for using this awful concept in a duel) and raw power


> He was a drugged up prisoner.  To display some esoteric meaning of the word command (which the drugged up prisoner aspect automatically eliminates via occam's razor), that'd require he have the means of displaying his abilities outside of Scourge just being able to sense his power.  He didn't, Surik's not going to assume he did, and Scourge outright lauds his command in the context of raw power.



Nope, he says his command and connection.  Translation his mastery and raw power.  So yes I agree Revan's mastery of the force is superior to Nihilus'.  But no he's not superior in raw power.  

That's pretty easy actually, the speed at which Revan was processing the drugs, him being conscious, him meditating and focusing.  It could mean anything.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Several things wrong with this.  One it says his _command_ of the force.  Darth Nihilus didn't command the force it commanded him.



...

Semantics, that's the best you can do?

Semantics I flat out kill in fact.

Thank you for the lack of any meaningful cogent argument though 



> Darth Revan did not emerge until _after_ he and Malak left the known galaxy so this is incorrect. You do know he was dubbed Darth Revan by the Emperor himself right?



Semantics.

It'd refer to an even weaker incarnation during the Mandalorian War.



> There's no proof that you can sense the force in Darth Nihilus.



She was directly attached to his attack.

Prove you can cloak your presence in the force when you have that type of shit going against you.

Not to mention the Exile, a force wound of the same nature to Nihilus, was still something the others could actually sense IIRC.



> Remember that even when he approaches Telos neither Atris nor him sense his presence.



Because masking your presence in the force has NEVER been a force power...



> Regardless, command of the force does not ~ raw force power, it equals mastery, and command of the force, which Nihilus did not have.



You really suck at this.

You haven't even cogently addressed my argument.

I've proven command is talking about raw power.



> Interestingly enough the only people who are not force wounds who could actually resist his attack are Ulic Qel Droma and Anakin both of which have resisted the Dark Reapers effects.



No, they can't.  The Dark Reaper isn't as powerful as Nihilus.



> That is not superior raw power at all.  Nihilus ripped the Ravager as well as four Leviathan-class vessels from Malachor orbit.



Yes, it really is chuckles.

Nathema as a ritual subatomically ripped apart all carbon life.  It gave Vitiate post ritual high end exatons of firepower to work with.

Revan survived his bloodlusted Force Lightning.

Ripping the Ravager from Malachor is only gigaton level without knowing how fast Nihilus did it.

Not to mention?  TOR Boss fight?  He chucks a bunch of meteors at speeds comparable to the turbolasers of the space battle over head.

You want to use physics and site the mass of the Ravager for why Nihilus' feat is impressive?

You don't get to ignore the fact speed is the superior component when discussing energy 



> The very passage you posted confirms that command and connection to the force are two different things.  Connection is midi-chlorians(God save my soul for using this awful concept in a duel) and raw power



No, it really doesn't.  He speaks of command.  He later snaps out of his musing and places the word command into the context of raw power.

Quit reaching and quit wasting my time.

EDIT - Didn't see the word connection actually until I reread it.

Still doesn't particularly refute my stance here though.



> Nope, he says his command and connection.  Translation his mastery and raw power.  So yes I agree Revan's mastery of the force is superior to Nihilus'.  But no he's not superior in raw power.



Semantics.  He has no way to gauge this supposed "command" in the sense of mastery.

He's a drugged up prisoner.  The only thing he can be talking about is his raw power.



> That's pretty easy actually, the speed at which Revan was processing the drugs, him being conscious, him meditating and focusing.  It could mean anything.



They didn't want him unconscious, they were interrogating him.

It couldn't mean anything.

It means raw power.

How does meditation even showcase "command" in terms of mastery? 

He's literally incapable of showcasing command in the sense that he's displaying some kind of mastery.  His mind was too clouded to call upon the force to do much of anything.


----------



## shade0180 (Apr 20, 2014)

This is really ironic. Stark left because he didn't like the way they debated during 2008 but still came back with the same debating style as 2008


----------



## TehChron (Apr 20, 2014)

shade0180 said:


> This is really ironic. Stark left because he didn't like the way they debated during 2008 but still came back with the same debating style as 2008



Its almost a shame

Just means hell probably leave again and well still be lacking in entertainment


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 21, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> ...
> 
> Semantics, that's the best you can do?
> 
> ...


"There is no strength in the hunger he possesses? and the will behind his power is a primal thing. *And it devours him as he devours others*?his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. *He is already dead, it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls.*"

Nihilus doesn't command the force or his ability; it commands him, it drives him.  He does not have mastery of the ability.



> It'd refer to an even weaker incarnation during the Mandalorian War.



Doesn't really matter considering Nihilus didn't have a command of the force.




> She was directly attached to his attack.
> 
> Prove you can cloak your presence in the force when you have that type of shit going against you.
> 
> Not to mention the Exile, a force wound of the same nature to Nihilus, was still something the others could actually sense IIRC.



"It is said that the Force has a will, it has a destiny for us all. I wield it, but it uses us all, and that is abhorrent to me. Because I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost. But in you? I see the potential to see the Force die, to turn away from its will. And that is what pleases me. You are beautiful to me, exile. *A dead spot in the Force, an emptiness in which its will might be denied.*"

"What you carry may mean the death of the Force? and the death of the Jedi."

You cannot use the force to sense an absence in the force.  Or did you miss the entire Jedi Council being unable to sense her post Malachor?  Or Darth Nihilus being able to sneak up on 100 Jedi Masters, including Vandar, Dorak, and Zhar who are amongst the order's finest.  



> Because masking your presence in the force has NEVER been a force power...



Prove he masked his presence.



> You really suck at this.
> 
> You haven't even cogently addressed my argument.
> 
> I've proven command is talking about raw power.




Nah command is mastery, connection is raw power.  Or did you miss the entire mid-chlorians bit in Episode I.




> No, they can't.  The Dark Reaper isn't as powerful as Nihilus.



It has the same mechanics, and devastated worlds.




> Yes, it really is chuckles.
> 
> Nathema as a ritual subatomically ripped apart all carbon life.  It gave Vitiate post ritual high end exatons of firepower to work with.



No it doesn't.  Scourge blatantly says the vast majority of his power is focused on maintaining his immortality.  And if Vitiate dishes out exatons then Droumund Kaas would have been devastated when Revan batted one of his blasts aside.



> Revan survived his bloodlusted Force Lightning.


So?



> Ripping the Ravager from Malachor is only gigaton level without knowing how fast Nihilus did it.



How about holding the vessel together while it moves at FTL speeds?



> Not to mention?  TOR Boss fight?  He chucks a bunch of meteors at speeds comparable to the turbolasers of the space battle over head.



Gameplay is n-canon.



> You want to use physics and site the mass of the Ravager for why Nihilus' feat is impressive?
> 
> You don't get to ignore the fact speed is the superior component when discussing energy
> 
> ...


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 21, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> "There is no strength in the hunger he possesses… and the will behind his power is a primal thing. *And it devours him as he devours others*—his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. *He is already dead, it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls.*"
> 
> Nihilus doesn't command the force or his ability; it commands him, it drives him.  He does not have mastery of the ability.



I know his ability controls him.

It's not about command in the sense of mastery.

There is no way it can refer to mastery when he can showcase little to none.

Nor is mastery significant without raw power backing it.  Skill alone isn't convincing anyone to fuck with the emperor or sway someone to Revan's side.



> You cannot use the force to sense an absence in the force.  Or did you miss the entire Jedi Council being unable to sense her post Malachor?  Or Darth Nihilus being able to sneak up on 100 Jedi Masters, including Vandar, Dorak, and Zhar who are amongst the order's finest.



She used Sever Force on herself after Malachor V... did you miss that bit of exposition?  Of course they couldn't sense her.

Cloaking one's self in the force is pretty damn common a skill.  It's how the Banite Sith hid, it's how Kreia hid.



> Prove he masked his presence.



Occam's Razor says hi.

Does he have a reservoir of force power to pull from?

He has a signature that can be sensed if not masked.

Being a wound doesn't make you deaf to the force.  It makes you a black hole that feeds upon the force energy of those around you.  Its how Nihilus took his drain to the level he did.



> Nah command is mastery, connection is raw power.  Or did you miss the entire mid-chlorians bit in Episode I.



He had no means of showing any sort of mastery in his drugged up state.



> It has the same mechanics, and devastated worlds.



Same mechanic doesn't mean same power.  The Dark Reaper has inferior feats.



> No it doesn't.  Scourge blatantly says the vast majority of his power is focused on maintaining his immortality.



Where?

And even so?  Not relevant, we already know he's the most powerful Sith Lord of the era, that much is confirmed by feats and word of god.  "majority" of power still leaves room for him to spare a few dozen exatons per attack.



> And if Vitiate dishes out exatons then Droumund Kaas would have been devastated when Revan batted one of his blasts aside.



Guess Yoda's building level and his Tutaminis feat against Sidious wasn't all that impressive then 

Which leaves him with... that rather shitty CW feat of destroying 2 large aircraft of town level energies.

Which means he's stuck to powerscaling off padawan Anakin 

Doesn't it suck when the era you're arguing for has such shitty feats and relies upon really dubious word of god that's otherwise unsupported by said feats?

Pull your head out of 2008, that argument doesn't fly here with shit like concentrated energy and j/cc being a thing chuckles.



> How about holding the vessel together while it moves at FTL speeds?



Unquantifiable, and he hardly has to do that when other ships in star wars magically manage to survive jumps into hyperspace just fine without the structures being damaged.

You could even chalk it up to passive shielding.



> Gameplay is n-canon.



That's not game mechanics 

That's an attack he's programmed to hurl.

Game mechanics are HP, the infinite inventory and levels.

Movesets and the accompanying effects of them in the game world aren't game mechanics.  They're feats.  Just like in any other medium of fiction.

I know for a fact N-canon doesn't include what I just mentioned, wookiepedia fails to mention anything of the sort in the canon section.



> Its easy to sense it.  Boy Anakin has the greatest connection to the force in history, but his command of the force is lacking.  Revan has connection and command at his side.



How do you sense mastery?

How can he be talking about command in the context of mastery if he has no actual means of showcasing any mastery of any significant level?



> Nihilus didn't command anything, nor could he ever be sensed.  Ergo you have no proof Meetra sensed him at all aside from your baseless assertion that "he attacked her, she had to have felt it."



He doesn't need to command anything.  Command here refers to raw power, for there is no mastery for Scourge to observe that would wow him.

Nor would "mastery" alone be any sort of means of convincing Scourge Revan was of any use to him.

Mastery without power is worthless.  Finesse us secondary to raw power.  If you can overwhelm it, skill means nothing.

His force drain has energy.  She can and did sense it.  It's hard to ignore something like that directly connected to your body.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 21, 2014)

N-canon said:
			
		

> Things are a bit more complicated with the matter of Star Wars games. The overall scenario and documentation (cutscenes, manuals, strategy guides etc) are proper EU (see C-canon below). This, however, doesn't apply to "game mechanics" and stats.
> 
> Game mechanics are the "artistic license" properties of the game that separate any computer game from reality and serve to make one more playable and enjoyable; for example Kyle Katarn carrying 10 weapons simultaneously, fully and immediately recovering from wounds simply by touching a bacta tank, bodies of defeated enemies disappearing etc., are things not realistically possible. Game mechanics are also some special effects accompanying the use of Force powers, such as sounds and glow surrounding the caster, which never appear in the movies. Health, shield, and Force repository are also game mechanics.





Look, nothing about the attacks a boss chucks at you and the physical effects that accompany them 

That's not covered in what's considered "artistic license"

Are you really trying this one?


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 21, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I know his ability controls him.
> 
> It's not about command in the sense of mastery.
> 
> ...



Yeah he does.  The force is channeled through someone far more powerfully when they have mastery than when they have latent power.






> She used Sever Force on herself after Malachor V... did you miss that bit of exposition?  Of course they couldn't sense her.
> 
> Cloaking one's self in the force is pretty damn common a skill.  It's how the Banite Sith hid, it's how Kreia hid.



Right neither of which are beings who are solely driven by hunger.





> Occam's Razor says hi.



Irrelevant.  No one has ever sensed a hole in the force.  Therefore there'd be no need for Nihilus to mask his presence.




> He had no means of showing any sort of mastery in his drugged up state.



Except for the fact that Jedi process drugs way faster than any other being with mastery of the force.



> Same mechanic doesn't mean same power.  The Dark Reaper has inferior feats.



Very similar feats.




> Where?
> 
> And even so?  Not relevant, we already know he's the most powerful Sith Lord of the era, that much is confirmed by feats and word of god.  "majority" of power still leaves room for him to spare a few dozen exatons per attack.



And yet he dies to a lightsaber and was nearly killed by the Exile's saber throw.  



> Guess Yoda's building level and his Tutaminis feat against Sidious wasn't all that impressive then
> 
> Which leaves him with... that rather shitty CW feat of destroying 2 large aircraft of town level energies.
> 
> ...


This is from the 2013 book Star Wars: The Legendary Yoda.
The greatest Jedi: Yoda, defender of the galaxy, master of the Force, and the greatest Jedi who have ever lived."
"Yoda's ability to use the Force is greater than that of any other Jedi."
"...the most wise and mysterious Jedi Master of them all."



> Pull your head out of 2008, that argument doesn't fly here with shit like concentrated energy and j/cc being a thing chuckles.



Its never mentioned ever that FL has exatons worth of energy.  And considering Jedi and Sith regularly are offed by lightsabers, you're full of shit.




> Unquantifiable, and he hardly has to do that when other ships in star wars magically manage to survive jumps into hyperspace just fine without the structures being damaged.
> 
> 
> You could even chalk it up to passive shielding.



Blatantly stated to not be space worthy.




> That's not game mechanics
> 
> That's an attack he's programmed to hurl.
> 
> ...



Lol then its canon Revan can tank lightsaber hits casually.  No. Anything outside of cutscenes is n-canon.  




> How do you sense mastery?
> 
> How can he be talking about command in the context of mastery if he has no actual means of showcasing any mastery of any significant level?



Answered above.




> He doesn't need to command anything.  Command here refers to raw power, for there is no mastery for Scourge to observe that would wow him.
> 
> Nor would "mastery" alone be any sort of means of convincing Scourge Revan was of any use to him.
> 
> ...



Connection is raw power command is mastery.  I don't know how many times I have to say it.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 21, 2014)

We're talking about the Dark Reaper now? 

Lol, memories....



> Lol then its canon Revan can tank lightsaber hits casually. No. Anything outside of cutscenes is n-canon.


I've no context, but this isn't necessarily true.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 21, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Look, nothing about the attacks a boss chucks at you and the physical effects that accompany them
> 
> That's not covered in what's considered "artistic license"
> 
> Are you really trying this one?



Things are a bit more complicated with the matter of Star Wars games. The overall scenario and documentation (cutscenes, manuals, strategy guides etc) are proper EU (see C-canon below). This, however, doesn't apply to "game mechanics" and stats.


Yes it is.  Revan hurling meteors on people isn't realistically possible...at all.


----------



## ThanatoSeraph (Apr 21, 2014)

Just saying, but arguing based on what's realistically possible in a universe where there is FTL travel, space wizards who can see the future and shapeshifting aliens in the movies alone probably isn't the best course of action.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 21, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Yeah he does.  The force is channeled through someone far more powerfully when they have mastery than when they have latent power.



No, it doesn't.

Mastery without the raw power backing it up is worthless, and the Emperor isn't going to be something Scourge will be convinced to fight with some pissant running around with "Super Control"

It's in reference to raw power.



> Right neither of which are beings who are solely driven by hunger.



He was driven by hunger a  product of abusing his force drain.  Surik is the exact same type of force wound.  She would have become him had she followed a similar path.

Your point isn't cogent.



> Irrelevant.  No one has ever sensed a hole in the force.



So, the force power the council, herself, and others sense rolling off of Surik just happens to be their imaginations then?



> Except for the fact that Jedi process drugs way faster than any other being with mastery of the force.



How's processing a drug a display of mastery when cycling it out of your system would just require a fuckton of energy?



> Very similar feats.



Still inferior, thus no dice on Ulic or Anakin resisting jackshit.



> And yet he dies to a lightsaber and was nearly killed by the Exile's saber throw.



Are we in dragon ball?

No?

When has Star Wars had ANY character exhibit a constant level of super durabilityy?

We're repeatedly shown they can't and don't.  Kas'sim's death, Tenebrous' death, I can go on.

Your point isn't of relevance, try again.



> This is from the 2013 book Star Wars: The Legendary Yoda.



Honestly... I don't even need to acknowledge this if his feats don't measure up.

The OBD is primarily feats or get the fuck out.  Databook shit is purely a supplement to either establish a hierarchy for powerscaling or the like.

I will indulge to humor you as I have been though 



> The greatest Jedi: Yoda, defender of the galaxy, master of the Force, and the greatest Jedi who have ever lived."



What span of time does this book that holds the quote cover?

Because we know it's bullshit if Luke's anywhere listed in the book.



> "Yoda's ability to use the Force is greater than that of any other Jedi."



Vague.  Could mean his era, could mean all time.  Your first quote is the most and only solid one of this bunch.



> Its never mentioned ever that FL has exatons worth of energy.



He's pissed off, afraid of death to such extreme levels he'll do anything to survive.

He's pouring his full power into him, just as you'd claim Sidious would be with Yoda during the duel in the Senate.

Quit being a hypocritical tit.



> And considering Jedi and Sith regularly are offed by lightsabers, you're full of shit.



Hardly when they need to constantly erect barriers and consciously keep up an active force based defensive amplication.

This isn't passive like DB.



> Blatantly stated to not be space worthy.



And that's great for outside of hyperspace.  Still never shown a ship requiring anything protecting them in hyperspace travel.

Especially given the energy most ships can generate to jump into hyperspace is far lesser in magnitude than the level of energy their shields they possess.



> Lol then its canon Revan can tank lightsaber hits casually.  No. Anything outside of cutscenes is n-canon.



That'd be a product of HP.

The skills displayed and the collateral caused by them are fair game.

Tanking lightsabers is part of that wonderful artistic license, not the force attacks themselves.



> Answered above.



Rather poorly chuckles.



> Connection is raw power command is mastery.  I don't know how many times I have to say it.



You can be blue and the face and it'll still mean nothing.

Processing drugs isn't special.  It doesn't showcase any meaningful command.

Mastery of the force alone isn't going to convince Scourge to side with Revan.  It's hardly sufficient to attack the emperor without the raw power behind it.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 21, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Yes it is.  Revan hurling meteors on people isn't realistically possible...at all.



So, TK doesn't exist in Star Wars then?

Are you fucking high?

It's realistic in star wars, therefore it's not encompassed by canon's policy of non-canon.

I swear, you old fuck star wars fans suck at this whole "game mechanics" thing.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 21, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> -snip-



As soon as you said 'feats or gtfo'  I'm done here.  By that logic Aizen should be stronger than Ulquiorra, Cell weaker than Frieza, ect. ect.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 21, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> So, TK doesn't exist in Star Wars then?
> 
> Are you fucking high?
> 
> ...




Things are a bit more complicated with the matter of Star Wars games. The overall scenario and documentation *(cutscenes, manuals, strategy guides etc) * are proper EU (see C-canon below). This, however, doesn't apply to "game mechanics" and stats.

Game mechanics by definition is gameplay.  So anypoint where you are holding a controller and dictating what your character does is n-canon.


----------



## ThanatoSeraph (Apr 21, 2014)

Also regarding Jedi being able to tank lightsaber hits.

[YOUTUBE]1ToztqqDcaY[/YOUTUBE]

... They actually demonstrably can if they erect a force shield in time. Not just inferred from the fact that they can deal with large amounts of energy, but explicitly shown.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 21, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Game mechanics by definition is gameplay.  So anypoint where you are holding a controller and dictating what your character does is n-canon.



They define game mechanics as artistic license taken to make the games playable.

That's not what happens here.

Continue to delude yourself though buddy.


----------



## ThanatoSeraph (Apr 21, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> As soon as you said 'feats or gtfo'  I'm done here.



Well, that's not the entire truth. Things apart from feats aren't just discarded (I remember debating exactly this with someone from another forum when I first joined which did use feats and nothing else). For example, reliable character statements that gel well with context and whatnot are said to be fine. Statements made by a biased liar known to exaggerate are not.



> By that logic Aizen should be stronger than Ulquiorra,



I'm not a Bleach expert, but I'm pretty damn sure that he is.



> Cell weaker than Frieza, ect. ect.



Cell has feats of beating characters stronger than Freiza (that's a feat by the way), reliable statements that place him stronger than Frieza etc. etc.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 21, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> So, TK doesn't exist in Star Wars then?
> 
> Are you fucking high?
> 
> ...



A meteor would cause ridiculous amounts of AOE.  + its unprecedented in the mythos.  And yes it is game mechanics.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 21, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> They define game mechanics as artistic license taken to make the games playable.
> 
> That's not what happens here.
> 
> Continue to delude yourself though buddy.



"Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not be."


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 21, 2014)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> Well, that's not the entire truth. Things apart from feats aren't just discarded (I remember debating exactly this with someone from another forum when I first joined which did use feats and nothing else). For example, reliable character statements that gel well with context and whatnot are said to be fine. Statements made by a biased liar known to exaggerate are not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




^Sorry I meant Ulq should be stronger than Aizen.  


Yeah Yoda has plenty of out of verse statements that say he's the strongest Jedi up to that point; him fighting on par with Sidious who's stated to be the strongest Sith up to that point (proved by him doing battle with the force itself) is pretty great proof that he's on par with him.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 21, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> "Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not be."



You can keep quoting that.

Doesn't mean anything when we know how they define game mechanics.

It's not player controlled, it's not a stat, it's not artistic license.  It's a feat whether you like it or not.  To program a boss fight as though it weren't an accurate reflection of the opponent's powers sans the artistic license shit would be rather stupid.

Why not just program it so that they accurately reflect what they want it to then?  No one wants to fight a facsimile.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 21, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> ^Sorry I meant Ulq should be stronger than Aizen.
> 
> Yeah Yoda has plenty of out of verse statements that say he's the strongest Jedi up to that point; him fighting on par with Sidious who's stated to be the strongest Sith up to that point (proved by him doing battle with the force itself) is pretty great proof that he's on par with him.



Not a particularly cogent example.

You don't have issues like star wars does with comparing between Era. 

The statements are pretty baseless without them proving superior to someone from former eras in combat with the right feats.  It's why the old republic era somehow gets the shaft in saber combat.  The movie era gets screwed because the big feats are either done in the past, or by fuckers post DE.

Unlike in the case of Bleach, where we can directly compare character performances like in dragon ball.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 21, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> You don't have issues like star wars does with comparing between Era.
> 
> The statements are pretty baseless without them proving superior to someone from former eras in combat with the right feats.  It's why the old republic era somehow gets the shaft in saber combat.  The movie era gets screwed because the big feats are either done in the past, or by fuckers post DE.



That's why unlike in Bleach and Dragonball databooks are critical in understanding the Star Wars Universe power rankings.  

Also different mediums portray characters differently.  I am sure if Vitiate were in a G-canon source he'd fall woefully short of your exaton expectations.  In fact...everyone in Star Wars does.  Which is why you can either take the outlying exaton feat or downscale it.  The second makes more sense when you consider someone like the Exile defeating Nihilus and almost killing the Emperor with sabers.


----------



## AgentAAA (Apr 21, 2014)

Going to point out on the sabers thing... even when the duels basically saber-to-saber the one with greater force power appears to have more powerful blows. it's quite possible the sabers are simply force-amped simply by who uses them.

And I disagree fictions get to be judged differently depending on preference - It's no longer fair to judge said different fictions fairly against eachother (not that either DB or Bleach have any reason to be in a vs. match against star wars) in that case the databooks should be usable for DB, but that'd obviously cause problems when it cuts canon.
There are certain limitations in how certain things are allowed to be portrayed, powerwise. But that's an issue that gets handled by sensible scaling, more than anything.


----------



## TehChron (Apr 21, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> That's why unlike in Bleach and Dragonball databooks are critical in understanding the Star Wars Universe power rankings.
> 
> Also different mediums portray characters differently.  I am sure if Vitiate were in a G-canon source he'd fall woefully short of your exaton expectations.  In fact...everyone in Star Wars does.  Which is why you can either take the outlying exaton feat or downscale it.  The second makes more sense when you consider someone like the Exile defeating Nihilus and almost killing the Emperor with sabers.



Up until you realize that the entire point of Lightsabers is that they're just absurdly harmful energy sticks.

On the other hand, a minimum amount of energy required is a minimum amount of energy. It's not like it was a one time thing, either. Vitiate replicated the feat in order to make Scourge immortal as a reward for his assistance during the fight with Revan and Surik.

So...not an outlier.


----------



## TehChron (Apr 21, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> A meteor would cause ridiculous amounts of AOE.  + its unprecedented in the mythos.  And yes it is game mechanics.



Unprecedented in the mythos the same way standing up to Vitiate's fully empowered Force Lightning is? 

You cant really claim feats off of vague powerscaling and then deny feats of a similar nature that are scripted events with ample visual evidence supporting them

It's pretty blatant hypocritical of you


----------



## Adamant soul (Apr 21, 2014)

Meteors are unprecedented yet we have Sidious I believe performing life-wiping force storms, he also obliterated an entire fleet with one if I'm not mistaken. Pretty sure that's more impressive than exatons. So tell me, how can something be an outlier when more impressive feats from canonically stronger characters (in this case Sidious)  exist?

Back to the meteor, simply being gameplay doesn't make it gameplay mechanics. If the meteor thing has to be seen (or done if it's a QTE) before the end of the fight then it's canon end of story.


----------



## GearsUp (Apr 21, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> Going to point out on the sabers thing... even when the duels basically saber-to-saber the one with greater force power appears to have more powerful blows. it's quite possible the sabers are simply force-amped simply by who uses them.



force-amped sabers? it depends on what context they're being used. I mean, traya was skilled in that regard, and manipulating the force the aspect that goes into sabers through saber throwing...but in general combat? I don't think so. unless the force provides a direct buff to the caster. but the force isn't by nature just going to improve one's saber skills.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 21, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> Going to point out on the sabers thing... even when the duels basically saber-to-saber the one with greater force power appears to have more powerful blows. it's quite possible the sabers are simply force-amped simply by who uses them.
> 
> And I disagree fictions get to be judged differently depending on preference - It's no longer fair to judge said different fictions fairly against eachother (not that either DB or Bleach have any reason to be in a vs. match against star wars) in that case the databooks should be usable for DB, but that'd obviously cause problems when it cuts canon.
> There are certain limitations in how certain things are allowed to be portrayed, powerwise. But that's an issue that gets handled by sensible scaling, more than anything.



I dunno,  Sabers don't really have the feats to suggest that they can deflect anything more than a few gigatons.  I am unsure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me in this post, could you reword it please?  



TehChron said:


> Up until you realize that the entire point of Lightsabers is that they're just absurdly harmful energy sticks.
> 
> On the other hand, a minimum amount of energy required is a minimum amount of energy. It's not like it was a one time thing, either. Vitiate replicated the feat in order to make Scourge immortal as a reward for his assistance during the fight with Revan and Surik.
> 
> So...not an outlier.



Absurdly harmful energy sticks that take several minutes to cut through doors...right.

Also Sidious' feats vastly outstip Revan's, so yes its still an outlier for him.  Also
"And, if the situation was right he might be able to collapse a building; it would really depend on his state of mind and the circumstances."
-Drew, on Revan's TK

^Blatantly stated that Revan's high end limit is collapsing a building.



TehChron said:


> Unprecedented in the mythos the same way standing up to Vitiate's fully empowered Force Lightning is?
> 
> You cant really claim feats off of vague powerscaling and then deny feats of a similar nature that are scripted events with ample visual evidence supporting them
> 
> It's pretty blatant hypocritical of you



^Feats that occur during gameplay have always been deemed inadmissible.  Haven't you noticed how strange it is that people regularly tank lightsaber blows during gameplay, but then are glass cannons as soon as the cutscenes begin?



Adamant soul said:


> Meteors are unprecedented yet we have Sidious I believe performing life-wiping force storms, he also obliterated an entire fleet with one if I'm not mistaken. Pretty sure that's more impressive than exatons. So tell me, how can something be an outlier when more impressive feats from canonically stronger characters (in this case Sidious)  exist?
> 
> Back to the meteor, simply being gameplay doesn't make it gameplay mechanics. If the meteor thing has to be seen (or done if it's a QTE) before the end of the fight then it's canon end of story.



C-canon is Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, *while things like stats and gameplay may not be;* they also offer non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters and Action VI transports.

The only gameplay segments I consider canon are the quick time events in TFU and TFU II.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 21, 2014)

Also Yoda is hardly stuck at megatons.  All of Starkiller's feats are scalable to him, considering the Emperor is canonically far more powerful than him.


----------



## GearsUp (Apr 21, 2014)

don't know why default and given abilities/force powers in games can't be considered canon.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 21, 2014)

GearsUp said:


> don't know why default and given abilities/force powers in games can't be considered canon.




Because gameplay is n-canon.  And you can't cherry pick what is canon and what isn't.  It has always been the policy that events and cutscenes are canon (as well as LS dialogue choices) but gameplay is generally with few exceptions (TFU) n-canon.

"C-canon is primarily composed of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other *elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.*"


----------



## GearsUp (Apr 21, 2014)

you can't just blanket the term. aspects given to characters that the player has no control of, yet stated by the developers to be the abilities that define said characters, those can't be considered noncanon without considering the rest of the game itself nonanon. or else, tell me specifically what put cutscenes above this.

you also quoted the "few exceptions" part. this is an exception.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 21, 2014)

GearsUp said:


> you can't just blanket the term. aspects given to characters that the player has no control of, yet stated by the developers to be the abilities that define said characters, those can't be considered noncanon without considering the rest of the game itself nonanon. or else, tell me specifically what put cutscenes above this.
> 
> you also quoted the "few exceptions" part. this is an exception.




Things are a bit more complicated with the matter of Star Wars games. The overall scenario and documentation (*cutscenes,* manuals, strategy guides etc) are proper EU (see C-canon below). This, however, doesn't apply to "game mechanics" and stats.


Gameplay falls under the latter not the former.


----------



## GearsUp (Apr 21, 2014)

game mechanics and stats I understand. however, im referring to...for instance, say when first acquire Bastila as a party member in kotor. she has a default set of force powers. you know that those are the powers she's capable of using--otherwise wouldn't have been given them by the developers. not the effects in particular have to be canon, but the powers themselves are.


----------



## Poxbox (Apr 21, 2014)

This isn't a matter that can be resolved with logic. It's canon policy that gameplay is non-canon. Someone with the authority to do so said it's non-canon, so that's how it is and no amount of arguing changes that.

Things are different when there isn't an official canon policy, but there is for SW.


----------



## GearsUp (Apr 21, 2014)

can't be resolved with logic? then could you at least tell me who came up with this policy?


----------



## Katsuargi (Apr 21, 2014)

Whoever in the studio developed the canon policy.

Official star wars canon guidelines (until Disney releases the changes), not ours.


----------



## GearsUp (Apr 21, 2014)

I mean, that still doesn't really...actually, that's cool. It's whatever. lul


----------



## Qinglong (Apr 21, 2014)

>building level Revan
>Drew's word as absolute, same Drew who refused to comment on Revan vs Bane
>Revan somehow being massively weaker than Traya, which is contradicted by her own fucking word


----------



## Es (Apr 21, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Because gameplay is n-canon.  And you can't cherry pick what is canon and what isn't.  It has always been the policy that events and cutscenes are canon (as well as LS dialogue choices) but gameplay is generally with few exceptions (TFU) n-canon.
> 
> "C-canon is primarily composed of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other *elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.*"



Are you dumb that isn't how it works

No one said gameplay is N canon. Stop pulling shit out of your ass


----------



## Es (Apr 21, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> That's why unlike in Bleach and Dragonball databooks are critical in understanding the Star Wars Universe power rankings.
> 
> *Also different mediums portray characters differently.  I am sure if Vitiate were in a G-canon source he'd fall woefully short of your exaton expectations.  In fact...everyone in Star Wars does.  Which is why you can either take the outlying exaton feat or downscale it.*  The second makes more sense when you consider someone like the Exile defeating Nihilus and almost killing the Emperor with sabers.


----------



## Qinglong (Apr 21, 2014)

ITT Outliers how do they work


----------



## GearsUp (Apr 22, 2014)

yeah. I had my doubts but i'd at least like to know who this person is and what exactly makes them so influential in the canonity debate.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 22, 2014)

Qinglong said:


> >building level Revan
> >Drew's word as absolute, same Drew who refused to comment on Revan vs Bane
> >Revan somehow being massively weaker than Traya, which is contradicted by her own fucking word



You don't even need to note this much.  The quote is akin to Oda claiming Sanji's upper limit in kicking strength is low end wall level with the 20 odd bats broken comment of his in response to a fan's inquiry for a Q and A.

Clearly Mizukage Hitsugaya forgets the section he's in 



Es said:


> Are you dumb that isn't how it works
> 
> No one said gameplay is N canon. Stop pulling shit out of your ass



It's funny, because the paragraph he's quoting feeds directly into the paragraph on the wiki page that explains exactly how they define game mechanics.

The same one I quoted pages ago.

"Artistic License".  They even have wonderful examples that don't remotely suggest moves thrown by bosses aren't to be taken at face value.

But the fucker's desperate enough to resort to shit like arguing from lack of collateral (an argument that's been dead in the water for... oh, the past couple of years) and downplay via a word of god statement that's about as worthless as anything that's come out of most fallible human mouth's.

Death of the author is our modus operandi Mizukage, you conform to our precedents and rule book here.  Were this KMC, MVC, or any other site?  We'd have to do the same.

Also?

Bear in mind chuckles?  I wasn't saying Yoda's stuck to megaton level, or even Marek's pissant country level shit.  I was mocking your usage of lack of collateral when the characters are established to have feats that are of the level of power we were discussing in the first place.  They're out to kill each other and not suffering from any noted CIS that'd have them holding back.  Regardless of the collateral, they're using their full power, I don't need to explain why the planet's not razed.  That's the beauty of magical energy sources and fiction.

I can say without a doubt, fiction is too inconsistent for me to bother giving a shit about explaining that away.  It's a fool's errand.  Not worth anyone's time.  You shouldn't need to be a calcer to understand that much.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 23, 2014)

Qinglong said:


> >building level Revan
> >Drew's word as absolute, same Drew who refused to comment on Revan vs Bane
> >Revan somehow being massively weaker than Traya, which is contradicted by her own fucking word




>Eh more like a large building.
>Which is legit.  They are pretty damned close, with Bane having the edge.
>Wut.  Revan is way stronger than Traya.  



Es said:


> Are you dumb that isn't how it works
> 
> No one said gameplay is N canon. Stop pulling shit out of your ass




I literally pulled this straight from official website and the *VERIFIED* Wookiepedia page.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> You don't even need to note this much.  The quote is akin to Oda claiming Sanji's upper limit in kicking strength is low end wall level with the 20 odd bats broken comment of his in response to a fan's inquiry for a Q and A.



Red herring, One Piece doesn't have an official canon policy.



> It's funny, because the paragraph he's quoting feeds directly into the paragraph on the wiki page that explains exactly how they define game mechanics.
> 
> The same one I quoted pages ago.
> 
> ...



Lol the wiki page is entirely unsourced and is stated to have unverified claims.  Let me guess your work?  

Here's the post they made way back when: Note that because canon is being reworked they took down this article, but looking back into ye olden KMC posts I was able to find it.


The Holocron

By 1996, Licensing was keeping an in-house bible of reference materials as the volume of publications, facts, and figures grew to such unwieldy proportions that it became difficult to know everything relevant to a particular project. They finally decided something had to be done to organize the increasingly large collection of media which chronicled the Star Wars universe. So, it was decided that a system of canon would be developed which would organize the materials into what was and wasn't fit for the Star Wars story.

As of 2000, Lucas Licensing has appointed Leland Chee to create a continuity tracking database referred to as the "Holocron". As with every other aspect having to do with the overall story of Star Wars, the Holocron follows the canon policy that has been in effect for years.

The Holocron is divided into 4 levels: G-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon.

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself. G-canon always overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays.

C-canon is primarily comprised of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, *but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.*

S-canon is "secondary" canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the popular online roleplaying game Star Wars: Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.

N-canon is "non-canon". What-if stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), game stats, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm.

To summarize, all elements are part of the Star Wars story, unless they contradict the events of the six films in a way that cannot be rationalized. All elements contradicting the films are deemed apocrypha, and are not considered canon. There is also an "infinities" storyline in Star Wars publishing, which has the intent of telling non-canon Star Wars stories, using a "what-if?" attitude.




> Death of the author is our modus operandi Mizukage, you conform to our precedents and rule book here.  Were this KMC, MVC, or any other site?  We'd have to do the same.



Sorry to correct you about your own boards but you are _wrong_.

From the General OBD Assumptions thread:
*Canon:
This is pretty much clear cut in most people's minds.

Any form of a series that the original author or creator had the largest part, and near full autonomy, in creating. This would of course mean manga for most series, and anime for a select few. In 99% of most cases, whatever form of a series came first is what is considered to be canon.

There are some special cases though, like with Final Fantasy VII, where two of the creators of the original game, Nomura Tetsuya and Nojima Kazushige, were also the directors of the movie Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children. In this case, the movie is also considered canon, even though it isn't the original form of the series.

Another is s-CRY-ed, where both the anime and manga were written by the same person, but both series ended up being totally different. It is completely up to those replying in the thread to choose which version of the characters involved should be used.*



In short, here in the OBD, we take anything that is considered canon, and unlike in other series, author's words are just as canon as the source itself.



> Also?
> 
> Bear in mind chuckles?  I wasn't saying Yoda's stuck to megaton level, or even Marek's pissant country level shit.  I was mocking your usage of lack of collateral when the characters are established to have feats that are of the level of power we were discussing in the first place.  They're out to kill each other and not suffering from any noted CIS that'd have them holding back.  Regardless of the collateral, they're using their full power, I don't need to explain why the planet's not razed.  That's the beauty of magical energy sources and fiction.



Read the official rules and assumptions buddy. 



CIS is on for fights.  



> I can say without a doubt, fiction is too inconsistent for me to bother giving a shit about explaining that away.  It's a fool's errand.  Not worth anyone's time.  You shouldn't need to be a calcer to understand that much.




Here's the thing though.  Star Wars isn't like other series.  Star Wars has an official canon policy and in that policy the word of god (GL for the movies, Dave Filoni for T-canon, and Drew for some C-canon) is official.  So when GL said Vader is 80% of Sidious; he is, calcs can lick his old crusty billionaire nuts.  And if you would take 5 minutes to take Vitiate's withered dick from betwixt your lips 

Whether or not Vitiate is calced at Exatons he's never displayed in in character so its irrelevant.  How about you _read_ the rules and assumptions stickied at the top for a reason, and stop telling me about what you and your buddies collectively circle jerk to.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 23, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Red herring, One Piece doesn't have an official canon policy.



Doesn't matter.

His word isn't worth anything around here, especially when feats contradict it.

Word of god holds little to no weight in the OBD.  It's a supplemental.

The author is hardly infallible and is often wrong about there own creations.

You're free to leave the section if you don't like it (like you have actually ), but we have and do discount unsupported word of god.



> Lol the wiki page is entirely unsourced and is stated to have unverified claims.  Let me guess your work?



I don't even touch wookiepedia chuckles.

And... are you really suggesting a site anal retentive about citation would leave unsourced material on a page as important as canon policy?



> C-canon is primarily comprised of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, *but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.*



So... from what I have and continue to understand about canon policy in star wars is that it's primarily plot concerned.

And that while the events of gameplay happen, they don't necessarily happen as the player witnessed them.  Because how a fight can go is random based on how the game is played.

Interestingly enough, that doesn't actually suggest that the powers we witness aren't accurately depicted... it just calls into question whether or not they were canonically called upon in the game.

Hence, you have a situation like with a non-canon ending in some games.  The feats are still valid, but the events didn't ever need to actually occur.

You're just handing this to me on a silver platter 



> N-canon is "non-canon". What-if stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), game stats, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm.



So, they have a chance to flesh out "gameplay" here, and all they mention is game stats.

So, basically, your argument, as it has been, is dead in the water 

Good to know you're as full of shit as ever.



> In short, here in the OBD, we take anything that is considered canon, and unlike in other series, author's words are just as canon as the source itself.



Not denying the canonicity of his word, I'm just calling him out as full of shit.

He's clearly contradicted by feats and those take precedence to the fallible word of god.

If he were omniscient, I'd take him seriously, but he's human and flawed chuckles, he can be and is wrong 



> CIS is on for fights.



Oh god... 

Either you're just this stupid, or you're just ignoring the meaning of my words 

This has no relevance to what I was talking about in terms of CIS.



> Here's the thing though.  Star Wars isn't like other series.  Star Wars has an official canon policy and in that policy the word of god (GL for the movies, Dave Filoni for T-canon, and Drew for some C-canon) is official.



You think word of god has weight around here?

Really?

And you've actually posted in this section?



> So when GL said Vader is 80% of Sidious; he is



So what if he is?  What's that mean?  Are you seriously using power levels to argue Vader's superiority without anyone but Vader and Sidious having such comparisons available? 



> calcs can lick his old crusty billionaire nuts.



Nah, I'd be all for powerscaling vader to a given feat... if I knew what the fuck 80% sidious represented outside of power level bullshit.



> And if you would take 5 minutes to take Vitiate's withered dick from betwixt your lips



And thus his bitterness shows through and his desperation sparks to an all time high 



> Whether or not Vitiate is calced at Exatons he's never displayed in in character so its irrelevant.



He has, and did in the Revan fight.  You don't hold back with the sort of crippling fears he does in a bloodlusted state chuckles


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 23, 2014)

Does it frustrate you that the likes of Nihilus or Vitiate steamroll most of the PT council 

I mean, I know you've improved since then, but I'm sure one of the old fucks would be more than happy to find that one post you made about PT council members being able to defeat Nihilus


----------



## GearsUp (Apr 23, 2014)

shit, bro...


----------



## trance (Apr 23, 2014)

> Word of god holds little to no weight in the OBD. It's a supplemental.



Isn't "Word of God" the reason Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord?


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 23, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Isn't "Word of God" the reason Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord?



Nah, he has feats that support it, especially DE Sidious. RotS Sidious also has keeping that dark side shroud up all by his lonesome where he clouded the Jedi Order's collective precog/clairvoyance IIRC.  That's not something other Sith Lords have shown they could replicate.


----------



## Es (Apr 23, 2014)

> I literally pulled this straight from official website and the VERIFIED Wookiepedia page.


>Wookieepedia
>Official

You weren't reading it right anyways so lol


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 23, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Doesn't matter.
> 
> His word isn't worth anything around here, especially when feats contradict it.
> 
> ...



Show me where it says that in the rules buddy.




> I don't even touch wookiepedia chuckles.
> 
> And... are you really suggesting a site anal retentive about citation would leave unsourced material on a page as important as canon policy?



Read the page.  Its unsourced.




> So... from what I have and continue to understand about canon policy in star wars is that it's primarily plot concerned.
> 
> And that while the events of gameplay happen, they don't necessarily happen as the player witnessed them.  Because how a fight can go is random based on how the game is played.
> 
> ...



Nice try.  It says gameplay unless otherwise specified is n-canon.




> So, they have a chance to flesh out "gameplay" here, and all they mention is game stats.
> 
> So, basically, your argument, as it has been, is dead in the water
> 
> Good to know you're as full of shit as ever.



Gameplay is pretty fucking clear as anytime the player is in control its n-canon.




> Not denying the canonicity of his word, I'm just calling him out as full of shit.
> 
> He's clearly contradicted by feats and those take precedence to the fallible word of god.
> 
> If he were omniscient, I'd take him seriously, but he's human and flawed chuckles, he can be and is wrong



Call me chuckles again, and I'll report you for flamebait.




> Oh god...
> 
> Either you're just this stupid, or you're just ignoring the meaning of my words
> 
> This has no relevance to what I was talking about in terms of CIS.



Canon>Calcs. 



> You think word of god has weight around here?
> 
> Really?
> 
> And you've actually posted in this section?



I don't give a shit what the other posters say.  It says no where in the rules that author's intent doesn't matter.  In fact to the contrary there's an entire section about how the forum respects canon.



> So what if he is?  What's that mean?  Are you seriously using power levels to argue Vader's superiority without anyone but Vader and Sidious having such comparisons available?
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, I'd be all for powerscaling vader to a given feat... if I knew what the fuck 80% sidious represented outside of power level bullshit.



Seems like Vader's in the exatons.  Vader has 80% of the raw power of Sidious who's in the exatons.  Dealwithit.gif




> He has, and did in the Revan fight.  You don't hold back with the sort of crippling fears he does in a bloodlusted state chuckles



Prove he used exaton level lightning in the Revan fight.  



> Does it frustrate you that the likes of Nihilus or Vitiate steamroll most of the PT council
> 
> I mean, I know you've improved since then, but I'm sure one of the old fucks would be more than happy to find that one post you made about PT council members being able to defeat Nihilus



What the fuck are you sniffing?  Vitiate rolls everyone on the Council who's name isn't Yoda.  Nihilus rolls pretty much everyone in the Star Wars universe who isn't a hole in the force.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Apr 23, 2014)

events that happen in gameplay like meteors being dropped or stuff being lifted are legitimate and quantifiable feats

author's intent means shit because we don't know what the fuck the author actually thinks and this isn't a literature class

80% of Sidious is unquantifiable pish like DBZ powerlevels, which only let you know how strong someone is relative to within his own series


----------



## Risyth (Apr 23, 2014)

> Nice try. It says gameplay unless otherwise specified is n-canon.



lol wat is this



> Canon>Calcs.



and this


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 23, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Show me where it says that in the rules buddy.



Have you never honestly lurked an OBD thread?

Because it seems like you haven't.



> Read the page.  Its unsourced.



Sure thing then.  I'll look into it.



> Nice try.  It says gameplay unless otherwise specified is n-canon.



Nice try what?  The canon tier clearly only discusses shit in terms of plot.  That's all its saying regarding "gameplay" isn't canon.  The player controls that.  Their are multiple ways for the game to play out, but the actions programmed into the game are fair game as far as I can tell from how the canon policy is worded even excluding the possibility Wookiepedia is wrong about the game mechanic definition.



> Gameplay is pretty fucking clear as anytime the player is in control its n-canon.



Says game stats in the n-canon section chuckles.

That's a marvelous failure on there part to not have espoused upon "gameplay" and "game mechanics"

Or perhaps that's just there way of defining gameplay in the first place 



> Call me chuckles again, and I'll report you for flamebait.



 My god you're a pissy little shit 

Report me, go ahead, I really don't mind or care.

I call everyone chuckles, I'll grant you no more respect than anyone else.  Especially when you don't deserve it.

Maybe the mods will finally ban me after all these years for "abusing" a fucker with a fragile psyche like yours.

^I fully acknowledge that's actually pretty mean mods, so feel free to toss me off forum a few days.

I just can't think of being all that polite to such a fragile person.



> Canon>Calcs.



Feats > Word of God as far as shit's concerned around here.

You treat calcs as exclusive to feats... yet calcs just derive actual numbers for us to peg how awesome a given feat is.

That's kind of sad really.



> I don't give a shit what the other posters say.  It says no where in the rules that author's intent doesn't matter.  In fact to the contrary there's an entire section about how the forum respects canon.



Those rules hardly reflect how anything's ever been done in this section.

You know this.

I know this.

Why are you lying through your virtual teeth chuckles?



> Seems like Vader's in the exatons.  Vader has 80% of the raw power of Sidious who's in the exatons.  Dealwithit.gif



And I suppose 20% Toguro can fuck up a large section of a town and Freeza's percentages are supposed to be taken as linear progression now 

It's power level shit, it has no actual meaning in vs debate.  Author's rarely understand the percentages they pull from there asses don't reflect a linear progression in feats.



> Prove he used exaton level lightning in the Revan fight.



Pissed off, crippling fear of death, I need nothing more than to prove he's pumping out his full power.



> What the fuck are you sniffing?  Vitiate rolls everyone on the Council who's name isn't Yoda.  Nihilus rolls pretty much everyone in the Star Wars universe who isn't a hole in the force.



Glad to know you've improved that much since your initial posting career began then Mizukage Hitsugaya 

Still not much of one though.


----------



## TheForgottenPen (Apr 23, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Call me chuckles again, and I'll report you for flamebait.



kek 

Why is it that you are the only person I've seen who's waved a flamebait flag for namecalling. Never have I seen such sensitivity from a person here, even back in my lurking days.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 23, 2014)

Don't worry Mizukage, I reported myself to Storm and Modbat.

Should I cover Xellos and Greedo for you?

Or do you want to handle that yourself?


----------



## Qinglong (Apr 23, 2014)

Large building level Revan > wall level Traya 

legit powerscaling


----------



## Risyth (Apr 23, 2014)

> Call me chuckles again, and I'll report you for flamebait.



Ooh, a new sig quote.


----------



## KaiserWombat (Apr 23, 2014)

Chaos, avoid calling people "pissy little shits": that'll only result in unnecessary black marks being attached to your name that can't really be justified by "being in the heat of debate", even if the rest of your commentary is otherwise appropriate. 

Though Stark, I do not think it would be entirely productive for anyone involved in the process to forward a report and flaming accusation for the usage of the word "chuckles": granted, Chaos' other off-colour remarks are valid complaints that you can address with the moderation team, but please do try not to be immediately dissuaded from the debate for such an innocuous and ultimately meaningless phrase as the aforementioned "chuckles".

People, just get the fuck along in your discourse regarding fictional character vs debates~


----------



## Risyth (Apr 23, 2014)

> People, just get the fuck along in your discourse regarding fictional character vs debates~



...that makes it sound so...pathetic....


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 23, 2014)

KaiserWombat said:


> Chaos, avoid calling people "pissy little shits": that'll only result in unnecessary black marks being attached to your name that can't really be justified by "being in the heat of debate", even if the rest of your commentary is otherwise appropriate.



Noted 



> People, just get the fuck along in your discourse regarding fictional character vs debates~



Awww... but acting like a well adjusted citizen of normal society is booooring~


----------



## KaiserWombat (Apr 23, 2014)

Risyth said:


> ...that makes it sound so...pathetic....



I enjoy providing people with some delicious reality-coated perspective!


----------



## trance (Apr 23, 2014)

So, does Vader outclass everyone here in lightsaber combat?


----------



## Risyth (Apr 23, 2014)

Depends which version of Vader. Cyborg doesn't stand a chance vs most of his opponents.


----------



## trance (Apr 23, 2014)

This is pre-Mustafar Vader. 

And one of the scenarios is lightsaber combat.


----------



## TheForgottenPen (Apr 23, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Depends which version of Vader. Cyborg doesn't stand a chance vs most of his opponents.



I thought Cyborg (atleast later on) was more or less equal to peak RotS Anakin, due to his meshing of the forms?


----------



## Risyth (Apr 23, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> This is pre-Mustafar Vader.
> 
> And one of the scenarios is lightsaber combat.



So, vs the Temple? It's still not that good in comparison. lol



TheForgottenPen said:


> I thought Cyborg (atleast later on) was more or less equal to peak RotS Anakin, due to his meshing of the forms?



I guess it doesn't matter anymore.


----------



## trance (Apr 23, 2014)

Risyth said:


> So, vs the Temple? It's still not that good in comparison. lol.



Well, to my knowledge, I don't know anyone from the Old Republic era with better dueling skills. Someone feel free to correct me.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 23, 2014)

There's Bastila.


----------



## TheForgottenPen (Apr 23, 2014)

Risyth said:


> There's Bastila.



Er...um....whats her best dueling feats?


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Apr 23, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Awww... but *acting* like a *well adjusted citizen* of normal society is booooring~



More like be a subtle asshole.

Mods ultimately can't act on what is not there.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 23, 2014)

TheForgottenPen said:


> Er...um....whats her best dueling feats?



She fucked up Brejik.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 23, 2014)

Bastila's best dueling feat?

Malak... who's hard to quantify outside of being one of the best of his era.

Which Revan consistently shat on in a duel anyway.

Best of his era doesn't really suggest they can contend with Anakin and win in a duel though.

Wouldn't say it ends quickly though... as much as Anakin's a better duelist, I still have issues buying some of the jobbing he and Kenobi were guilty of during TCW.

>Not killing Hondo with the first lightsaber strike in a duel that lasted WAY too long
>Obi-Wan getting knocked out by a pair of no name mandolorians
>Cad Bane being able to deal with Kenobi in any fashion at all
>Apparently Bariss Offe didn't outright die during the climax of Season 5 against Anakin? 

Doesn't invalidate other feats, but fuck if it doesn't paint some of the writing staff as a touch inept.



Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> More like be a subtle asshole.
> 
> Mods ultimately can't act on what is not there.



Indeed in that regard


----------



## TheForgottenPen (Apr 23, 2014)

Risyth said:


> She fucked up Brejik.



Eh?? But thats gameplay mechanic. She fucked up Brejik while the player had control of Revan, which obviously makes this n-canon.


*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Risyth (Apr 23, 2014)

Oh no. Don't start with that n-canon, c-canon, d-canon-, r-canon shit. She kicks his and everyone else's ass even if you do nothing, just like she said she would.


----------



## TheForgottenPen (Apr 23, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Oh no. Don't start with that n-canon, c-canon, d-canon-, r-canon shit. She kicks his and everyone else's ass even if you do nothing, just like she said she would.



Revan could also chuck meteors out of the sky, even if the player does nothing in SWTOR, but *that* is considered non canon 


*Spoiler*: __ 



you do know I'm joking right?


----------



## Risyth (Apr 23, 2014)

Idk; I've never played SWTOR.

Heard it sucked.


*Spoiler*: __ 



I'd argue anyway: I'm secretly a Bastila fanboy.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 24, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Have you never honestly lurked an OBD thread?
> 
> Because it seems like you haven't.



Recently?  No.  There's a reason this place is called the cancerdome.  




> Sure thing then.  I'll look into it.



Good.




> Nice try what?  The canon tier clearly only discusses shit in terms of plot.  That's all its saying regarding "gameplay" isn't canon.  The player controls that.  Their are multiple ways for the game to play out, but the actions programmed into the game are fair game as far as I can tell from how the canon policy is worded even excluding the possibility Wookiepedia is wrong about the game mechanic definition.



The Wookiepedia is seemingly wrong.  And unfortunately the links to the starwars.com one is dead.  So we're kind of stuck until Disney releases the new canon policy.




> Says game stats in the n-canon section chuckles.
> 
> That's a marvelous failure on there part to not have espoused upon "gameplay" and "game mechanics"
> 
> Or perhaps that's just there way of defining gameplay in the first place





> My god you're a pissy little shit
> 
> Report me, go ahead, I really don't mind or care.
> 
> I call everyone chuckles, I'll grant you no more respect than anyone else.  Especially when you don't deserve it.



Yeah I'm not even gonna tackle that.



> Maybe the mods will finally ban me after all these years for "abusing" a fucker with a fragile psyche like yours.



I didn't even report you for it.  Ironic that by me threatening to report you for flamebait I actually flamebaited you.  




> ^I fully acknowledge that's actually pretty mean mods, so feel free to toss me off forum a few days.
> 
> I just can't think of being all that polite to such a fragile person.




Be less sensitive.   




> Feats > Word of God as far as shit's concerned around here.
> 
> You treat calcs as exclusive to feats... yet calcs just derive actual numbers for us to peg how awesome a given feat is.
> 
> That's kind of sad really.



I don't deny that calcs are awesome, but I think that if it comes to a calc vs canon, canon always wins. That's the purpose of defining a fictional verse's canon. 



> Those rules hardly reflect how anything's ever been done in this section.
> 
> You know this.
> 
> ...





> chuckles





> chuckles



Reported for flamebait 






> And I suppose 20% Toguro can fuck up a large section of a town and Freeza's percentages are supposed to be taken as linear progression now
> 
> It's power level shit, it has no actual meaning in vs debate.  Author's rarely understand the percentages they pull from there asses don't reflect a linear progression in feats.



Character statements are fallacious in nature.  Authors, particularly GLs, are not.  They have just as much weight as the source material itself, moreso if its on T-canon or below.



> Pissed off, crippling fear of death, I need nothing more than to prove he's pumping out his full power.



Was the Emperor afraid? 




> Glad to know you've improved that much since your initial posting career began then Mizukage Hitsugaya
> 
> Still not much of one though.



Lol at you referencing posts I made 5 years ago when I was 15.  Are you really that desperate?


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 24, 2014)

KaiserWombat said:


> Chaos, avoid calling people "pissy little shits": that'll only result in unnecessary black marks being attached to your name that can't really be justified by "being in the heat of debate", even if the rest of your commentary is otherwise appropriate.
> 
> Though Stark, I do not think it would be entirely productive for anyone involved in the process to forward a report and flaming accusation for the usage of the word "chuckles": granted, Chaos' other off-colour remarks are valid complaints that you can address with the moderation team, but please do try not to be immediately dissuaded from the debate for such an innocuous and ultimately meaningless phrase as the aforementioned "chuckles".
> 
> People, just get the fuck along in your discourse regarding fictional character vs debates~



Kaiser, I was kidding...I didn't even report him.  He responded by flying off the handle, which even then I didn't report him for.  Its all cool.


----------



## TheForgottenPen (Apr 24, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Recently?  No.  There's a reason this place is called the cancerdome.



Thats the mainstream shounen battledome.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 24, 2014)

Ramius said:


> [raughs hysterically]



>Stalks my profile for what must have been a good amount of time
>Pull posts from five years ago.
>Laughs at me?


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 24, 2014)

TheForgottenPen said:


> Thats the mainstream shounen battledome.



Nah, I am referring to across the internets.  This place has a reputation.


----------



## Ramius (Apr 24, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> >Stalks my profile for what must have been a good amount of time
> >Pull posts from five years ago.
> >Laughs at me?



Connect 



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Does it frustrate you that the likes of Nihilus or Vitiate steamroll most of the PT council
> 
> I mean, I know you've improved since then, but I'm sure one of the old fucks would be more than happy to find that one post you made about PT council members being able to defeat Nihilus






It takes less than 10 seconds to someone competent.
Admittedly, I shouldn't have been this curious in the first place though


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 24, 2014)

Ramius said:


> Connect
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 Obviously I didn't actually think you went through my profile.  The fact that you are holding things a 20 year old said when he was 15 is lol worthy.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 24, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Recently?  No.  There's a reason this place is called the cancerdome.



They don't.  I lurk MVC.  They're more than aware that's what we call the MSBD.  Not my problem of fuckers across the net butcher the name and blanket it across the entire OBD in general.



> The Wookiepedia is seemingly wrong.  And unfortunately the links to the starwars.com one is dead.  So we're kind of stuck until Disney releases the new canon policy.



Not particularly.  I honestly only need N-canon's incredibly vague "game stats" to tell me what I can and can't use.  They had ample chance to define "game mechanics" and "gameplay" and failed to define it or seemingly touch upon it in the section that N-canon encompassed.

When something is poorly defined, you work with what you have available to determine what it might mean.

Parsimony suggests that game stats would be the gameplay and item/character stats they were referencing before and how they choose to define game mechanics on the whole.



> I didn't even report you for it.



I'm aware 

I had fun reporting it though.

This is a hobby dude, I'm pretty much here for my own amusement.



> Ironic that by me threatening to report you for flamebait I actually flamebaited you.



I noticed, but I'm not in the habit of pointing shit like that out.

I'm not here to get fuckers in trouble 



> Be less sensitive.



Don't see the sensitivity there  



> I don't deny that calcs are awesome, but I think that if it comes to a calc vs canon, canon always wins.



The feats are canon though.

You're still in the habit of treating feats and calcs as exclusive to one another.

All calcs end up being are a more precise estimate on how impressive a feat is as opposed to random fan guesstimating.  They're not canon to the material, but neither is the fan interpretation of how impressive they are in the first place.  At least what I'm presenting tends to have a smaller margin for error than a fan guess is all I'm saying.

And that's how the OBD functions, we like to reduce that margin for error if possible.

You don't personally need to enjoy it, but while you're in this section, you can at least play by our general precedents.  We'd have to do the same on other boards and all.  



> Reported for flamebait



I already got you covered 



> Character statements are fallacious in nature.  Authors, particularly GLs, are not.  They have just as much weight as the source material itself, moreso if its on T-canon or below.


 
The OBD treats the authors as just what they are.

They're human.

And human's make mistakes.

Drew's quote also comes from a time when Revan didn't have much in the way of feats (around the time KOTOR came out even IIRC).  Since then, he's fought Vitiate, resisted subatomic destruction on Nathema twice (kind of inferred by what the place was doing to Surik), redirected the lightning of a bitch far above Surik (even if it's a nexus, the point's still valid, her feats on the nexus make her greater than Surik) that had also stood on Nathema, and rained down meteors from space.  The weakest feat I mentioned is city level, and that was during the mandolorian wars.



> Was the Emperor afraid?



His fear of death is a well known thing (it's integral to his character), and he was visibly pissed off enough at Revan to actually get serious there.  The bloodlust is the key component here on top of the Emperor's lightning being described as infinitely (hyperbole, but conveys power that's exponentially superior to something Nyriss can produce.  He just so happens to have the energy stores and mindset to do just that) above Nyriss', who when not on a Nexus is city level anyway.



> Lol at you referencing posts I made 5 years ago when I was 15.  Are you really that desperate?



Nah, that was mostly asked in reference to you mentioning fellation on Vitiate.  I figured, why would the fucker be so visibly pissy about that?

I recalled on of the old fucks mentioned that post recently and thought "ah, maybe he hasn't gotten over that quite yet".


----------



## willyvereb (Apr 24, 2014)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> More like be a subtle asshole.
> 
> Mods ultimately can't act on what is not there.


Well, yeah.

But more like, don't be openly aggressive and avoid certain deeds that instantly ring the warning bells.
Rules exists to be "civil" in general during these forum discussions.
It doesn't force you to deny what you really are.
We're janitors, not forum policemen.
Although some people don't share this opinion


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 24, 2014)

You're not a janitor anymore Willy


----------



## TehChron (Apr 24, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> You're not a janitor anymore Willy



Beat me to it


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 24, 2014)

It's a sad day when even our local janitors can't keep a steady job 

You'll find new work soon I'm sure though Willy


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 25, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> They don't.  I lurk MVC.  They're more than aware that's what we call the MSBD.  Not my problem of fuckers across the net butcher the name and blanket it across the entire OBD in general.



You are the cancer in this dome, you and all your kind 




> Not particularly.  I honestly only need N-canon's incredibly vague "game stats" to tell me what I can and can't use.  They had ample chance to define "game mechanics" and "gameplay" and failed to define it or seemingly touch upon it in the section that N-canon encompassed.
> 
> When something is poorly defined, you work with what you have available to determine what it might mean.
> 
> Parsimony suggests that game stats would be the gameplay and item/character stats they were referencing before and how they choose to define game mechanics on the whole.



I suppose, but the entire game mechanics thing seems to be BS the Wookie made up because Lucasarts policy was dumb.  




> I'm aware
> 
> I had fun reporting it though.
> 
> This is a hobby dude, I'm pretty much here for my own amusement.



Same 




> I noticed, but I'm not in the habit of pointing shit like that out.
> 
> I'm not here to get fuckers in trouble



I admittedly baited you 




> Don't see the sensitivity there



That you went on that long rant solely from me saying "reported for flamebait", does show a tad bit of sensitivity. 




> The feats are canon though.
> 
> You're still in the habit of treating feats and calcs as exclusive to one another.
> 
> ...



Yes that's true.  I agree with that.  But if Lucas comes out saying 'blasters are lightspeed'  its no different than a databook that says so, in fact its superior.




> I already got you covered



I am glad you have learned your place.  My apprentice 


[QUOTE}  
The OBD treats the authors as just what they are.

They're human.

And human's make mistakes.[/QUOTE]

So are you.  



> Drew's quote also comes from a time when Revan didn't have much in the way of feats (around the time KOTOR came out even IIRC).  Since then, he's fought Vitiate, resisted subatomic destruction on Nathema twice (kind of inferred by what the place was doing to Surik), redirected the lightning of a bitch far above Surik (even if it's a nexus, the point's still valid, her feats on the nexus make her greater than Surik) that had also stood on Nathema, and rained down meteors from space.  The weakest feat I mentioned is city level, and that was during the mandolorian wars.



Okay.  I'll take your calcs as long as you also take into account the canon.  




> His fear of death is a well known thing (it's integral to his character), and he was visibly pissed off enough at Revan to actually get serious there.  The bloodlust is the key component here on top of the Emperor's lightning being described as infinitely (hyperbole, but conveys power that's exponentially superior to something Nyriss can produce.  He just so happens to have the energy stores and mindset to do just that) above Nyriss', who when not on a Nexus is city level anyway.



I'll accept your calcs.  But that makes them scalable to other Star Wars high tiers.  The Sith Emperor is roughly scalable to Sidious and Yoda, Revan is roughly scalable to Dooku, Mace, and eh sort of Anakin. 







> Nah, that was mostly asked in reference to you mentioning fellation on Vitiate.  I figured, why would the fucker be so visibly pissy about that?
> 
> I recalled on of the old fucks mentioned that post recently and thought "ah, maybe he hasn't gotten over that quite yet".



Your hate has made you powerful.  Join me, and together we can rule the Internetz.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 25, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> You are the cancer in this dome, you and all your kind



You're looking for fluttershit if you want the cancer in the OBD 



> I admittedly baited you



I know 



> That you went on that long rant solely from me saying "reported for flamebait", does show a tad bit of sensitivity.



You WOULDN'T be annoyed if someone that came off as entitled to something they don't deserve threatened you for it (even if the threat was ineffectual)?  



> Yes that's true.  I agree with that.  But if Lucas comes out saying 'blasters are lightspeed'  its no different than a databook that says so, in fact its superior.



We've had feats where weaponry in Star Wars reflects this anyway.  His word alone wouldn't cut it around here though.

Granted, this might be more so due to how often Kishi contradicts himself, but his databook is taken with a grain of salt for example.



> So are you.



The point is that being the author makes you no less fallible.  It gives you no higher authority (other than the chance to establish what can possibly be canon).  We can and do question when statements made by the author aren't congruent with the sample of data we have available.



> Okay.  I'll take your calcs as long as you also take into account the canon.



I... do

You seem to confuse me for someone that's just out to support his favorite characters or some shit.

I'm a fucker with a bunch of puzzle pieces.  I'm trying to fit them all together to form a cohesive picture.  I haven't been supplied puzzle pieces that suggest the picture looks different from what I envision as of yet.



> I'll accept your calcs.  But that makes them scalable to other Star Wars high tiers.  The Sith Emperor is roughly scalable to Sidious and Yoda, Revan is roughly scalable to Dooku, Mace, and eh sort of Anakin.



We already do scale Sidious from Vitiate.  I've long acknowledged he's the most powerful Sith Lord.

Yoda?  I don't know enough about him.  I figured he'd be exaton myself for his tutaminis feat in the senate, but I was told to label him as continent level only when constructing his wiki page.

I'd have no issues scaling Dooku or Windu to Revan... I just haven't been presented anything on the order of quotes like this

Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

--Taken from The New Essential Chronology 

That make it feasible for me to form a credible argument in favor of scaling between the era.

Anakin has Starkiller to work off of, which doesn't leave him too wanting, I just can't find anything better to use.



> Your hate has made you powerful.  Join me, and together we can rule the Internetz.



Nah, I'm good.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 25, 2014)

how does this match go with the new canon ?


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 25, 2014)

If in the future Force Unleashed gets axed?

Vader's going to need some new feats.

Like... really fucking badly.


----------



## TheForgottenPen (Apr 25, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> If in the future Force Unleashed gets axed?
> 
> Vader's going to need some new feats.
> 
> Like... really fucking badly.



Seeing as how I hear talks about the rebels show's goal is to discover the origins of the rebel alliance, it's pretty likely they'll retcon. If that's the case.

Fuck.

Lets hope the show is actually good.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 28, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> If in the future Force Unleashed gets axed?
> 
> Vader's going to need some new feats.
> 
> Like... really fucking badly.




Its not just the Force Unleashed.  The entirety of the EU is now a small step above fanon under the "Legacies" banner.  

Here is what is canon now (no more G-canon, C-canon, ect.)

The Six Original Movies:
Star Wars: The Clone Wars
Star Wars: Rebels
The Three New Star Wars Films
Anything released after April 25, 2014

Things that are N-canon:  
Every Clone Wars comic book scene
Every post ROTJ story
Darth Bane's novels

Things that are questionable:
SWTOR- Technically KOTOR and KOTOR II falls under Legacies banner, and because SWTOR is based so heavily in KOTOR, and what would be Legacies novels (including SWTOR sans updates being released this year).  


What's good about this:  We will now have one continuous Star Wars universe developed by the same team to ensure no more contradictions. 

What's bad:  Well the EU that fans have invested in for decades is essentially just fanon that may appear in the new canon or may just be discarded entirely.


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## willyvereb (Apr 28, 2014)

Fluttershy said:


> how does this match go with the new canon ?


Well, it'd be Darth Vader fighting against people who don't even exist.

Don Quixote level challenge.


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