# Minato and A: Speed Debate Thread



## Naruto (Jun 8, 2011)

Use this god damn thread to discuss everything related to speed debates, particularly Minato/Raikage.

If I see anyone flaming or baiting, I'm banning you. This is your one and only warning.


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## FitzChivalry (Jun 8, 2011)

*Minato outclassed the Raikage thread*

Yeah, discuss that here. Try and play nice.


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## blacksword (Jun 8, 2011)

We already knew that Minato with Hiraishin> Raikage in terms of speed.


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## Phoenix Zoro (Jun 8, 2011)

4th hokage gets yet more proof that he is the strongest fighter of his generation.


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## Edward Newgate (Jun 8, 2011)

He did? He needed teleportation to avoid getting punched in the face.


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## Marsala (Jun 8, 2011)

Of course, you have to have top-class reflexes to use Hiraishin effectively in battle, especially against other speed demons like A.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jun 8, 2011)

I read the thread title as if it was telling me the sky is blue.


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## Phoenix Zoro (Jun 8, 2011)

Minato was quickly on his back tbh. I'm thinking that raikage does have the edge in speed no doubt, but not by a substantial amount.


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## Seraphiel (Jun 8, 2011)

No V2, shroud was so weak that it would have been pierced by a kunai, I see no feats. The only good thing this chap was that A said Bee is more talented than him


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## Corax (Jun 8, 2011)

Yeah now it is clear. Even more Kumo had no info on this jutsu. They thought that it was a shunshin.


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## tnorbo (Jun 8, 2011)

Phoenix Zoro said:


> Minato was quickly on his back tbh. I'm thinking that raikage does have the edge in speed no doubt, but not by a substantial amount.



thats because he teleported there, not speed.


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## Negrito (Jun 8, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> He did? He needed teleportation to avoid getting punched in the face.



A needs Raiton no Yori to be able to compete... your point?


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## Mephissto (Jun 8, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> He did? He needed teleportation to avoid getting punched in the face.



So? Whats your point?
Raikage needed lightning armour to be that fast 
It doesn't matter.


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## Hexa (Jun 8, 2011)

I was sort of impressed at Minato's striking power too.  He sliced the Hachibi's tentacle with a kunai.  That's something.


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## Judecious (Jun 8, 2011)

Seraphiel said:


> No V2, shroud was so weak that it would have been pierced by a kunai, I see no feats. The only good thing this chap was that A said Bee is more talented than him



A said he dodged my full speed.  get over it.


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## dungsi27 (Jun 8, 2011)

Lol apparently Minato would have ended it in two moves(and with his first attack) had Bee not interfered.

But Im wonder why Konoha had to retreat.Minato was doing just fine he cut off the beast tail with a kunai.


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## Wonder Mike (Jun 8, 2011)

~Gesy~ said:


> I read the thread title as if it was telling me the sky is blue.


*Same thing here!*


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## FitzChivalry (Jun 8, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> He did? He needed teleportation to avoid getting punched in the face.



Translation: "He used his signature technique to beat the other guy who used his signature technique. So without his signature technique..."

That is a weak-ass argument, sorry.


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## Deshi Basara (Jun 8, 2011)

Negrito said:


> A needs Raiton no Yori to be able to compete... your point?



Exactly


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## FLORIDA MAN (Jun 8, 2011)

Sasuke base speed > Minato base speed.

confirmed.


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## Seraphiel (Jun 8, 2011)

Judecious said:


> A said he dodged my full speed.  get over it.



Full speed at the time sry  Again I see no V2 or a strong shroud in that chapter.


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## Klue (Jun 8, 2011)

Phoenix Zoro said:


> Minato was quickly on his back tbh. I'm thinking that raikage does have the edge in speed no doubt, but not by a substantial amount.



Minato littered the battle area with his kunai beforehand. I'm betting he used Hiraishin again the second time around.

Still, A possesses the fastest non-space/time movement technique. Although, Minato's version is still lighting quick, as seen when he caught baby Naruto.


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## Phoenix Zoro (Jun 8, 2011)

Oh yeh, you are right my bad, raikage is faster.

But reflexes are probably fairly similar.


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## Krauser-tan (Jun 8, 2011)

Hexa said:


> I was sort of impressed at Minato's striking power too.  He sliced the Hachibi's tentacle with a kunai.  That's something.



Same here. As expected from naruto's benchmark, he was truly a genius.


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## Wonder Mike (Jun 8, 2011)

Mephissto said:


> So? Whats your point?
> Raikage needed lightning armour to be that fast
> It doesn't matter.



*Yes, and also to use Hiraishin he needs to be twice as fast no to get caught.*


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## Big Bοss (Jun 8, 2011)

Seraphiel said:


> No V2, shroud was so weak that it would have been pierced by a kunai, I see no feats. The only good thing this chap was that A said Bee is more talented than him





> Full speed at the time sry Again I see no V2 or a strong shroud in that chapter.



Link removed

"My full speed" 

Yeah.

Guess the Raikage was lying then, oh wait.



			
				Hexa said:
			
		

> I was sort of impressed at Minato's striking power too. He sliced the Hachibi's tentacle with a kunai. That's something.



Me too, IIRC Sasuke had to use Raiton to do it unlike him that did it with a simple Kunai.


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## FitzChivalry (Jun 8, 2011)

Hexa said:


> I was sort of impressed at Minato's striking power too.  He sliced the Hachibi's tentacle with a kunai.  That's something.



I would say the same thing. I was surprised by his power. He was a finesse fighter with these these impressive bursts of power.


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## vered (Jun 8, 2011)

seems like minato used hirashin to outspeed raikage full speed which seems to indicate that he used his full charged speed.minato used his hirashin to do that.
to me it seems natural that without special means(ninjutsu) minato wont be able to match A speed.but A speed is also based on the use of raiton enhancments.
which seems to give more credit to the speed that naruto achieved with RM that matched A ones.


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## Sniffers (Jun 8, 2011)

Minato used Hiraishin to get back to A as well. You can see the kunai a page prior.

The kunai would do shit against A's armour though, since even Chidori failed. Unless Minato had it imbued with wind chakra.


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## Hexa (Jun 8, 2011)

I am still a little surprised that Hiraishin passes as shunshin.  Minato is not incredibly subtle with his tags.  What did A think?  "He's trying to make me trip on these kunai on the ground!"


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## KingBoo (Jun 8, 2011)

lmao @ whatadrag's post

so in the end raikage maybe slightly...just by a little. BUT he can't beat the speed of minato's ninjutsu technique


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## Deshi Basara (Jun 8, 2011)

WhatADrag said:


> Sasuke base speed > Minato base speed.
> 
> confirmed.



LOL, what


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## FLORIDA MAN (Jun 8, 2011)

Judecious said:


> A said he dodged my full speed.  get over it.



V1 at the time was his full speed.

Obviously the Raikage developed and started training with V2 after his encounter with V2.


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## Jin-E (Jun 8, 2011)

Too short of a spar to make any definit conclusion


On a sidenote, seems Kishi has a Tentacle cutting fetish.


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## Helios (Jun 8, 2011)

Sorry but i dont see why i should judge a Minato without Hiraishin when others consider a Raikage with Raiton Shroud.

Minato's reflexes are second to none in the manga so far.


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## Coldhands (Jun 8, 2011)

A used his full speed and Minato reacted to it in time and avoided being hit. Oh and he also managed to make a counter attack, which required Bee to save A.

Oh and btw V1 and V2 are fan terms.


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## Seraphiel (Jun 8, 2011)

Well maybe we will see them fight as "Kages" and maybe by the time A will have V2 so we can compare.


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## Judecious (Jun 8, 2011)

Helios said:


> Sorry but i dont see why i should judge a Minato without Hiraishin when others consider a Raikage with Raiton Shroud.
> 
> Minato's reflexes are second to none in the manga so far.



This.  He can't use his signature move but A can?


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## Unknown (Jun 8, 2011)

A may have faster movement speed,but Minato has the fastest reaction speed seen in the manga.

Not only he has Hirashin, he has the reactions to use it aganist guys like A and blitz them with it. He reacted to A's greatest speed, he teleported out of his range, saw  A from far away, and teleported back so fast that A couldn't react to him.


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## Dariusd (Jun 8, 2011)

The fact that Minato was even able to react to A's speed and counter is a testament to his reflexes. One would imagine it would be akin to Lee vs. Sasuke. The fact that Minato doesn't even have a sharingan/V2 amped reflexes makes it even interesting. Minato can keep up and react to fast guys with no explanation so far is insane.


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## dungsi27 (Jun 8, 2011)

Seraphiel said:


> No V2, shroud was so weak that it would have been pierced by a kunai, I see no feats. The only good thing this chap was that A said Bee is more talented than him



Actually that was V2.
Link removed
As you can see the hair did stand up,but it was kept by the protector.


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## Final Jutsu (Jun 8, 2011)

I wonder if raikage would have been done for if Minato used rasengan(assuming he had it which he probably didn't at time).


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## Suu (Jun 8, 2011)

Klue said:


> Minato littered the battle area with his kunai beforehand. I'm betting he used Hiraishin again the second time around.
> 
> Still, A possesses the fastest non-space/time movement technique. Although, Minato's version is still lighting quick, as seen when he caught baby Naruto.


That he did.

Link removed

Top panel - Minato is holding a tagged kunai in his left hand.

Middle left panel - Minato is no longer holding the tagged kunai.

Bottom left panel - the tagged kunai he left behind is behind the Raikage now.

Link removed

Top right panel - Minato is now behind the Raikage.

*

Basically, the Raikage sped towards Minato, Minato Hiraishin'd away, leaving behind a kunai, and then Hiraishin'd back to attack the Raikage.


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## Corax (Jun 8, 2011)

> I was sort of impressed at Minato's striking power too. He sliced the Hachibi's tentacle with a kunai. That's something.


No A sliced it. He even apologized for it. To be fair they were on par. Minato had no attacks to wound A but A wasnt fast enough to wound Minato.


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## FLORIDA MAN (Jun 8, 2011)

KingBoo said:


> lmao @ whatadrag's post
> 
> so in the end raikage maybe slightly...just by a little. BUT he can't beat the speed of minato's ninjutsu technique





畜生道 said:


> LOL, what



Sasuke dodged Raikage's V1 naturally.

Minato needed a teleportation technique.

Problem?


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## GoDMasteR (Jun 8, 2011)

Seraphiel said:


> Well maybe we will see them fight as "Kages" and maybe by the time A will have V2 so we can compare.



yeah, there will be sure an another battle between them...


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## ? (Jun 8, 2011)

LOL @ when people was saying Ei> Minato rofl

He was about to beat him in two moves lol.


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## T7 Bateman (Jun 8, 2011)

Well the more I see of minato the more impressed I am. Sexy and stronger. Naruto has some great genes.


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## Kool-Aid (Jun 8, 2011)

of course i knew this all along


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## Negrito (Jun 8, 2011)

Klue said:


> Minato littered the battle area with his kunai beforehand. I'm betting he used Hiraishin again the second time around.
> 
> Still, A possesses the fastest non-space/time movement technique. Although, Minato's version is still lighting quick, as seen when he caught baby Naruto.



Now that I'm looking closer at the page Minato left the Hiraishin kunai he had in his hand when he dodged Raikage's punch. Link removed


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## ~Gesy~ (Jun 8, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> He did? He needed teleportation to avoid getting punched in the face.



he did? he needed sharingan to complete with chakra shroud
he did? he need chakra shroud to defeat neji


etc.


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## dungsi27 (Jun 8, 2011)

Corax said:


> No A sliced it. He even apologized for it. To be fair they were on par. Minato had no attacks to wound A but a wasnt fast enough to wound Minato.



Actually it was Minato who sliced it.

If thats not the case then it was Minatos punch which force Raikages body to cut it,which doesnt make sense to me since I dont believe Minato has that much bruth force.


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## Judecious (Jun 8, 2011)

Inu said:


> LOL @ when people was saying Ei> Minato rofl
> 
> He was about to beat him in two moves lol.



 this, it's not close.


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## conradoserpa (Jun 8, 2011)

Minato was faster than the Raikage, but now A is faster than he was in THAT battle.

God knows if Minato would be faster nowadays or not if he was alive (I'm sure he would be, but he's dead).


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## HawkMan (Jun 8, 2011)

He certainly validated Raikage's comments, it's easy to see why Raikage held him with such esteem. The execution of Hiraishin and the ease with which he creates "portals" makes Minato a dangerous person to face.


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## chakra-burned (Jun 8, 2011)

Sniffers said:


> Minato used Hiraishin to get back to A as well. You can see the kunai a page prior.
> 
> The kunai would do shit against A's armour though, since even Chidori failed. Unless Minato had it imbued with wind chakra.



He might've. Sliced that tentacle clean in half.


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## B.o.t.i (Jun 8, 2011)

I dont see whats the big deal.A uses shroud for mad speed, minato uses hirashin for mad speed.

Without space time ninjutsu cant match raikage in speed,Well unless you naruto now.

Regardless minato still fastest around he's pwnd a space time user,and he's beat an augmented fast freak.

minato's reactions are in the instantaneous range,


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## mayumi (Jun 8, 2011)

sush, don't bait the wankers. its more beautiful to see it with their eyes. minato could only beat raikage with is hiraishin, tee hee.


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## Judecious (Jun 8, 2011)

Corax said:


> No A sliced it. He even apologized for it. To be fair they were on par. Minato had no attacks to wound A but A wasnt fast enough to wound Minato.



Actually Minato sliced it.


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## Helios (Jun 8, 2011)

If we assume that Raikage's speed has not improved since that time,then this means that Minato has better reflexes than a capable Sharingan user like Sasuke.Talking about pretty impressive stuff here.


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## Big Bοss (Jun 8, 2011)

But yeah looking forward to see if Kishi shows us the fight as Kages, maybe we will learn how Minato take the idea of the Rasengan and see that image that was shown when Bee tought about him for the first time.


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## Marsala (Jun 8, 2011)

tnorbo said:


> thats because he teleported there, not speed.



Everyone but Minato seems to call it Shunshin. Even Madara did, despite knowing all about how it worked. I think Kakashi might have referred to it as Hiraishin.


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## chakra-burned (Jun 8, 2011)

Hexa said:


> I am still a little surprised that Hiraishin passes as shunshin.  Minato is not incredibly subtle with his tags.  What did A think?  "He's trying to make me trip on these kunai on the ground!"



It's actually quite brilliant. Even if they know what the technique is, attempting to clear out the kunais gives Minato time to strike from behind.


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## Corax (Jun 8, 2011)

> Actually it was Minato who sliced it.


No A apologized for it (even twice). He was too distracted by Minato to change his movement path and sliced B's tentacle at his full speed.


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## Sniffers (Jun 8, 2011)

chakra-burned said:


> He might've. Sliced that tentacle clean in half.


So did Sasuke's Chidori. From a greater distance I might add. Though I guess it's still kind of impressive.


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## lathia (Jun 8, 2011)

1 fuck up and you're done. That's all it took for A to get potentially hurt. Really.. there is no match. Call it what you want, S/T is broken and Madara is there to re-affirm the point. 

Minato = G.O.A.T 

Nothing more, nothing less. No tardism involved.


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## Big Bοss (Jun 8, 2011)

Link removed

Nope, look at Minato's arm.

He sliced it.


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## Judecious (Jun 8, 2011)

Corax said:


> No A apologized for it (even twice). He was too distracted by Minato to change his movement path and sliced B's tentacle at his full speed.



Look at the freaking panel, it obviously shows Minato slicing it


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## afterdark (Jun 8, 2011)

Corax said:


> No A sliced it. He even apologized for it. To be fair they were on par. Minato had no attacks to wound A but A wasnt fast enough to wound Minato.



It was Minato 

A apologized for making Bee intervened to help him


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## B.o.t.i (Jun 8, 2011)

raikage said last week he said minato was unsurpassable.


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## Unknown (Jun 8, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> He did? He needed teleportation to avoid getting punched in the face.




He reacted to A's fastest speed, teleported out of his range, looked at A from far, choose the best tactic, teleported back and A couldn't even react, move and so anything to dodge him...

Btw has anyone notices that Bee was able to create a tentacle and reach A before Minato could even finish his Kunai slash?

And that Minato has been able to cut Bee's tentacle? (Don't bring sasuke here, Bee already stated that he let Sasuke cut him).


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## SenSensei (Jun 8, 2011)

Minato being superior to Raikage was being questioned, now Kishimoto gave you your answer.
Next time, people just make sure not to question everything Kishimoto says through the characters.

Enjoy the manga.


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## blacksword (Jun 8, 2011)

lol It was Raikage who sliced Killer Bee's tentacle. Minato was even surprised.


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## Deshi Basara (Jun 8, 2011)

WhatADrag said:


> Sasuke dodged Raikage's V1 naturally.
> 
> Minato needed a teleportation technique.
> 
> Problem?



Yeah, i think A may have a problem with that:

Link removed


"*He avoided my full speed*"


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## chakra-burned (Jun 8, 2011)

Suu said:


> That he did.
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...



It's also possible that he threw that kunai in his hand at the Raikage and teleported to it right when it got within range.


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## shyakugaun (Jun 8, 2011)

WhatADrag said:


> V1 at the time was his full speed.
> 
> Obviously the Raikage developed and started training with V2 after his encounter with V2.



this, but then again, nf lacks comprehension


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## Corax (Jun 8, 2011)

> It was Minato


No i doubt. If it was him than 8-tails is officially fodder lvl. Sliced by a.....kunai?Really give it some credit this thing is a biju after all.


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## FLORIDA MAN (Jun 8, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Yeah, i think A may have a problem with that:
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...



Yes, because 20+ years ago, V1 was his full speed.

He obviously developed V2 after the fight.


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## Geralt of Rivia (Jun 8, 2011)

How is the Raikage's hair supposed to go up if it's all being held down by the forehead protector/bandana thing? You can't say he wasn't using V2.


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## chakra-burned (Jun 8, 2011)

Sniffers said:


> So did Sasuke's Chidori. From a greater distance I might add.


...I wasn't trying to compare the two  -_______-;

I was just saying a clean slice like that with such a short object might imply a little more going on there.


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## Helios (Jun 8, 2011)

WhatADrag said:


> He obviously developed V2 after the fight.



Nope this is a speculation.

The opposite hypothesis is more valid considering his words to Naruto when he compared himself in his current,obviously,condition ( which includes RS.2 ) with Minato.


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## Unknown (Jun 8, 2011)

Sniffers said:


> So did Sasuke's Chidori. From a greater distance I might add. Though I guess it's still kind of impressive.



Except that Sasuke only cut it as Bee let him to run away from home.
As Bee and Hachibi already admited.


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## chakra-burned (Jun 8, 2011)

WhatADrag said:


> Yes, because 20+ years ago, V1 was his full speed.
> 
> He obviously developed V2 after the fight.



lol, proof?


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## Klue (Jun 8, 2011)

Observe the bottom of page 14; it looks as if the Raikage's hair is sticking up a bit. Looks like version 2 to me.


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## SageRafa (Jun 8, 2011)

*Raikage had V2*

Link removed

In the last panel at your right you can clearly see Raikage's air moving up .. The reason why it didn't go full-up was because at the time he had the head-band restaining his air so only the lower part of it got up 

But neitherless his air is up so it's obviously V2 and Raikage said my full-speed ..


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## Mist Puppet (Jun 8, 2011)

V2 doesn't exist. That's just a fanmade name. 

There is no second version of the Raiton Armor. A just pumps more chakra into it to enhance his speed and reflexes in short bursts. Like a shunshin. Unless we're calling Shunshin "Running V2". 

A was at his top speed, and Minato dodged it. Clear as day. Deal with it.


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## SenSensei (Jun 8, 2011)

blacksword said:


> lol It was Raikage who sliced Killer Bee's tentacle. Minato was even surprised.


How did Raikage slice Bee's tentacle when Raikage was pushed away and Minato's strike was drawn piercing the tentacle?
Link removed


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## FLORIDA MAN (Jun 8, 2011)

Mist Puppet said:


> V2 doesn't exist. That's just a fanmade name.
> 
> There is no second version of the Raiton Armor. A just pumps more chakra into it to enhance his speed and reflexes in short bursts. Like a shunshin. Unless we're calling Shunshin "Running V2".
> 
> A was at his top speed, and Minato dodged it. Clear as day. Deal with it.



His top speed 20+ years ago isn't the same as his top speed now.

You people and your "fan made names" arguments. It's blatantly obvious by his aura its not the amount of chakra being pumped to augment his speed.

Deal with it.


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## Trent (Jun 8, 2011)

WhatADrag said:


> Sasuke base speed > Minato base speed.
> 
> confirmed.



Indeed. 

And he could have Amaterasu-ed Minato's ass too, even taking into account Hiraishin. 

Trufax.


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## chakra-burned (Jun 8, 2011)

WhatADrag said:


> Sasuke dodged Raikage's V1 naturally.
> 
> Minato needed a teleportation technique.
> 
> Problem?



Sasuke has Sharingan, which lets him see things slower.


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## manga genius (Jun 8, 2011)

Where is that person that said Raikage would easily land hits on Minato?


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## Negrito (Jun 8, 2011)

Corax said:


> No A apologized for it (even twice). He was too distracted by Minato to change his movement path and sliced B's tentacle at his full speed.



Actually no. Look at the page again. The slice begins from top to bottom, if A was the one who sliced the tentacle then it would be cut from bottom to top.

A apologized because Bee had to help/rescue him.


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## Big Bοss (Jun 8, 2011)

WhatADrag said:


> His top speed 20+ years ago isn't the same as his top speed now.
> 
> You people and your "fan made names" arguments. It's blatantly obvious by his aura its not the amount of chakra being pumped to augment his speed.
> 
> Deal with it.



=



Mist Puppet said:


> V2 doesn't exist. That's just a fanmade name.
> 
> There is no second version of the Raiton Armor. A just pumps more chakra into it to enhance his speed and reflexes in short bursts. Like a shunshin. Unless we're calling Shunshin "Running V2".
> 
> A was at his top speed, and Minato dodged it. Clear as day. Deal with it.



Deal with it.

And if you want to use those terms

=



Klue said:


> Observe the bottom of page 14; it looks as if the Raikage's hair is sticking up a bit. Looks like version 2 to me.



Deal with it 2.


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## Kuromaku (Jun 8, 2011)

Definitely Minato slicing it in the page picture.  Tentacle comes up to intervene, Minato slices it before it can get him, all the while tentacle has achieved its purpose of moving A out of the way.

Regardless, Minato was about to finish it for all we know (look at that slice).


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## Sniffers (Jun 8, 2011)

Unknown said:


> Except that Sasuke only cut it as Bee let him to run away from home.
> As Bee and Hachibi already admited.


It was never said Sasuke can't cut it though. Please don't argue that a simple kunai is better than Chidori...


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## FLORIDA MAN (Jun 8, 2011)

*"Fan made terms" or not, it's clear Raikage's "top speed" was V1 and not V2.*

He obviously trained V2 since his encounter with Minato, which is why Shi had remarked that this "augmented his reflexes to be on par with the Yellow Flash"

So in short, his "top speed" back then was more on par with V1, then it was with V2, as he continued training towards the latter since his close encounter with Minato that day.


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## HawkMan (Jun 8, 2011)

Helios said:


> If we assume that Raikage's speed has not improved since that time,then this means that Minato has better reflexes than a capable Sharingan user like Sasuke.Talking about pretty impressive stuff here.


Undoubtedly his reflexes/speed has increased, likely due to his constant development of physical attributes. 


Minato still made short work of Raikage, but I'm not certain if his attacks could sufficiently penetrate Raikage's defense.


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## Egotism (Jun 8, 2011)

He did say full speed


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## bearzerger (Jun 8, 2011)

When will people understand that the speed which counts for shinobi isn't the same as a 100m race. What made Minato so dangerous is how fast he was able to use Hiraishin and not the fact that he could teleport somewhere.


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## Deshi Basara (Jun 8, 2011)

WhatADrag said:


> Yes, because 20+ years ago, V1 was his full speed.
> 
> He obviously developed V2 after the fight.



Ok, first of all nowhere does it say that A used his full speed of the so called "V1" when Sascake dodged.

Second, A's hair probably didn't go up because he was wearing his headband.


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## shyakugaun (Jun 8, 2011)

hmmm could be the wind


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## dungsi27 (Jun 8, 2011)

*That was V2 people*

Some said Raikage was using V1.

But then hey look at this:

Link removed

Raikages hair did stand up,but was held back by the protector.


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## Geralt of Rivia (Jun 8, 2011)

*Minato = Batman*

Minato is basically Batman. Why? Because with prep he's basically unstoppable, unbeatable, what have you. Without prep? Very beatable.

Link removed

They talked for a bit before engaging in combat. In this time, Raikage could have used his Raiton Shroud to destroy his kunais/pouch. Minato without special kunais = weaker and beatable. Yes, I KNOW that in the scenario he wouldn't, because understandably he didn't yet know about his technique, so there's nothing to blame. 

This means that in their next encounter Yondaime would have to prep up the area and lure Raikage onto it, if it was a chance sighting it would be way different. *However, this is NOT a Raikage vs. Minato thread.*

I'm simply stating he is like Batman in the sense that if he has prep time, he's pretty much unbeatable. That's all.


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## FLORIDA MAN (Jun 8, 2011)

Oh my, the amount of stretching Minato fans make.


----------



## vered (Jun 8, 2011)

hmm you are right.it does stand up.but raikage already stated it was his quickest.


----------



## Mist Puppet (Jun 8, 2011)

WhatADrag said:


> His top speed 20+ years ago isn't the same as his top speed now.



Which means nothing, considering that isn't current A, that was A in the past. A in the past was using his top speed, so that is what we're going by. 



> You people and your "fan made names" arguments. It's blatantly obvious by his aura its not the amount of chakra being pumped to augment his speed.



Considering how inconsistent Kishimoto's art is, going by his "aura" doesn't mean much of anything. 



> Deal with it.



Deal with what? Your shitty argument?

Unfortunately, I will have to.


----------



## Final Jutsu (Jun 8, 2011)

yep, its up.  V2 is still beast though.


----------



## Dokiz1 (Jun 8, 2011)

Are peuple really debating who sliced the tentacle?  I thought the panel couldn't be more obvious it was Minato.


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Jun 8, 2011)

alex payne said:


> Current Raikage admits that Minato is faster.



Yes, because it's impossible to be faster than someone with a teleportation technique.


----------



## Alex Payne (Jun 8, 2011)

Current Raikage admits that Minato is faster. While you have a very heavy speculation.


----------



## Egotism (Jun 8, 2011)

Doesn't matter since A now admits Minato is faster


----------



## bearzerger (Jun 8, 2011)

Seraphiel said:


> Full speed at the time sry  Again I see no V2 or a strong shroud in that chapter.



Unlike nowadays he was wearing a forehead protector which kept his hair down.


----------



## Big Bοss (Jun 8, 2011)

/thread. 10chartolazytotag


----------



## Nic (Jun 8, 2011)

Right i'm sure he meant this is his top speed but not really his top speed.


----------



## manga genius (Jun 8, 2011)

Indeed it was Hirashin vs Raiton Armor 

Which makes Naruto's speed even more incredible.


----------



## B.o.t.i (Jun 8, 2011)

He got beat my minato in speed Last week said minato was teh fastest.

v1,v2 got his speed improved.Fact is As a raikage in the present canon fact he said minato was fastest.


----------



## shyakugaun (Jun 8, 2011)

its the wind LOL


----------



## Corax (Jun 8, 2011)

> Definitely Minato slicing it in the page picture


So the 2nd strongest biju was sliced by a kunai?Mmm.Does this make sense?Even fodders are strong enough to survive a slice from kunai.


----------



## Wonder Mike (Jun 8, 2011)

Kuromaku said:


> Definitely Minato slicing it in the page picture.  Tentacle comes up to intervene, Minato slices it before it can get him, all the while tentacle has achieved its purpose of moving A out of the way.
> 
> Regardless, Minato was about to finish it for all we know (look at that slice).



*and he hadn't noticed that it was Hachibi's tentacle, that's why he was surpised.*


----------



## Sniffers (Jun 8, 2011)

"Top speed" is constant. The Raiton Armour only amps the reflexes. Top speed and reflexes are not coupled as Kakashi showed when his movements were to fast for his reflexes.

A might've trained "V2" to fight Minato. That is to _react_ quickly as Minato blitzes to his blindside with Hiraishin. "V2" wouldn't increase his movement speed though. Minato is simply faster in that department.


----------



## auem (Jun 8, 2011)

minato too developed hiraishhin V2 and thus stayed ahead...
bottom line is he defeated A clearly...period..


----------



## Coldhands (Jun 8, 2011)

You should read Minato (without prep) vs. Madara (you know, the final villain guy) :]


----------



## Cold (Jun 8, 2011)

So that should end it right.

Without hirashin, Raikage in his shroud is clearly faster.

But WITH HIRASHIN, which is a part of Minato's overall speed, Minato is clearly faster.  So no more of that Minato is faster than Raikage without hirashin nonsense.


----------



## SageRafa (Jun 8, 2011)

shyakugaun said:


> hmmm could be the wind



Yeah or problably he was owned ..


----------



## chakra-burned (Jun 8, 2011)

HawkMan said:


> Undoubtedly his reflexes/speed has increased, likely due to his constant development of physical attributes. When Raikage escaped Amaterasu by moving so quickly he left an after-image, his hair stands upright. That's commonly referred to as V2. It seems Minato faced V1 Raikage, or a speed comparable to that.
> 
> 
> Minato still made short work of Raikage, but I'm not certain if his attacks could sufficiently penetrate Raikage's defense.



We know Minato had an elemental nature. LuLz wind chakura? Maybe.

You could argue that he was constantly developing his physical attributes, but I could just say he was making up for his advanced age (you stereotype physical attribute to mean greater speed, I stereotype greater age to mean lesser speed).

Anyways, does the lack of illustrations showing Sasuke seeing people's movements before they get there indicate he no longer has that ability/isn't using it? No, it does not. Similarly, the lack of a panel showing an after image does not preclude A from moving at that same speed.


----------



## dungsi27 (Jun 8, 2011)

That was V2:
Link removed
Look at the hair,then compare it to here:

Link removed

I kinda prefer Raikage's old haircut to his current one.


----------



## Judecious (Jun 8, 2011)

Corax said:


> So the 2nd strongest biju was sliced by a kunai?Mmm.Does this make sense?Even fodders are strong enough to survive a slice from kunai.



Not if it's a wind kunai.


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Jun 8, 2011)

Full speed 20 years ago != Full speed now.


----------



## Final Jutsu (Jun 8, 2011)

Minato sliced it.. It it were raikage, he would have taken naruto's arms off when he hit him last chapter.


----------



## Kotoamatsukami (Jun 8, 2011)

Yeah, hes probably feels like the goddamn batman..


----------



## SageRafa (Jun 8, 2011)

I made the same exactly thread , yes it's *confirmed * 

See the Uchiha Fans in denial , what a blast


----------



## Geralt of Rivia (Jun 8, 2011)

WhatADrag said:


> Full speed 20 years ago != Full speed now.



You could also argue that Raikage was in his prime back then, he's old as fuck now.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Jun 8, 2011)

It was clear that it was not V2?It was stated somewhere?

A's hair didn't go up because he was wearing his headband.


----------



## Corax (Jun 8, 2011)

> Not if it's a wind kunai.


It was a simple kunai. Over wise A would have been dead. Fuuton>raiton.


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Jun 8, 2011)

lol headband arguments

And no one is stating that Minato would regardless still not be faster than Raikage.


----------



## dungsi27 (Jun 8, 2011)

shyakugaun said:


> its the wind LOL



Which came from where?


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jun 8, 2011)

DId Minato seriously almost 2 panel the Raikage


----------



## conradoserpa (Jun 8, 2011)

He probably improved. I believe Raikage is faster nowdays than Yondaime was back in that time. Obviously Minato would be even faster if he was alive, but he's dead, so...


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 8, 2011)

Yeah, the problem was Minato never got the slash in thanks to Bee


----------



## SageRafa (Jun 8, 2011)

Yeah now prove it , I gave facts and feats , you give assumptions ? 

Mods please merge with the other thread , we made it at the same time


----------



## shyakugaun (Jun 8, 2011)

from him moviing, this is V2


----------



## Unknown (Jun 8, 2011)

Sniffers said:


> It was never said Sasuke can't cut it though. Please don't argue that a simple kunai is better than Chidori...



Not a simple Kunai. An special Kunai with Minato's chakra andprobably a fuuton.


----------



## Addy (Jun 8, 2011)

> Default* Minato outclassed the Raikage* thread





FitzChivalry said:


> Yeah, discuss that here. *Try and play nice*.



are you fu34ing serious? 

and unless you think minato's kunai can go through raikage's shroud, i don't see how he outclassed him? (even sasuke's chidori merely pierced raikage)

minato is faster but raikage is stronger and has a better defense.


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Jun 8, 2011)

100% Ichigo said:


> You could also argue that Raikage was in his prime back then, he's old as fuck now.



He's 50, hardly old as fuck. You really think he's "past his prime" given his physical condition?



SageRafa said:


> Yeah now prove it , I gave facts and feats , you give assumptions ?



No, you stretched a ridiculous theory based on his "headband" with the back of Raikage's hair always curls like that.


----------



## Coldhands (Jun 8, 2011)

WhatADrag said:


> Full speed 20 years ago != Full speed now.



At the time...
A = Kage
Minato = Jonin


----------



## chakra-burned (Jun 8, 2011)

conradoserpa said:


> He probably improved. I believe Raikage is faster nowdays than Yondaime was back in that time. Obviously Minato would be even faster if he was alive, but he's dead, so...



Sandaime was an old man and it slowed him down. I'm not arguing that that's the case with A, but it does leave things rather open.


----------



## dungsi27 (Jun 8, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> I made the same exactly thread , yes it's *confirmed *
> 
> See the Uchiha Fans in denial , what a blast



Nooooo and I thought I was the first one to notice that.

Anyway I think we need one thread about that so I want to delete my own thread do you know how to do that?


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jun 8, 2011)

Full Power = all he had.

There is no such thing as v1 or v2. Its called Raiton Armor.


----------



## Geralt of Rivia (Jun 8, 2011)

WhatADrag said:


> He's 50, hardly old as fuck. You really think he's "past his prime" given his physical condition?



I never stated my opinion. I'm just noting that it's debatable.


----------



## lathia (Jun 8, 2011)

WhatADrag said:


> Oh my, the amount of stretching Minato fans make.



I want to ask what makes you think "V2" will compare to "instant" movement? He already re-acted once with ease. The only arguments you & I have left are "IF" statements. Statements that mean nothing. You can try analyze all you want, nothing will be changed.


----------



## Corax (Jun 8, 2011)

Really this is a damage control thread as it seems. They both were equal. Minato was faster A was stronger and had better defense.


----------



## GoDMasteR (Jun 8, 2011)

Corax said:


> So the 2nd strongest biju was sliced by a kunai?Mmm.Does this make sense?Even fodders are strong enough to survive a slice from kunai.



maybe that kunai was full of wind...


----------



## FitzChivalry (Jun 8, 2011)

Corax said:


> No i doubt. If it was him than 8-tails is officially fodder lvl. Sliced by a.....kunai?Really give it some credit this thing is a biju after all.



It's obviously Minato. It's _shown_ to us. He was behind A. Tentacle came in from the side. Minato jumped off A and reflexively cut it. You say give the bijuu credit and you're reluctant to give any to Minato. Of course I can believe a kunai did that. That mere kunai slice came from easily the best of his generation and one of the greatest ever.


----------



## vered (Jun 8, 2011)

shyakugaun said:


> from him moviing, this is V2



yea but in this he didnt have the headband which can explain why the hair didnt stand up like it should considering raikage said in his own words it was his fastest speed.


----------



## Han Solo (Jun 8, 2011)

Do people seriously think Minato's slash would have killed the Raikage? The guy who tanked a chidori without much trouble?


----------



## SageRafa (Jun 8, 2011)

shyakugaun said:


> from him moviing, this is V2



But there he didn't have a headband restraining his air .. Or had he ? You even help our argument in that page Raikage's air in V1 was normal when he see it lifted in this chapter ..


----------



## Edward Newgate (Jun 8, 2011)

Corax said:


> So the 2nd strongest biju was sliced by a kunai?Mmm.Does this make sense?Even fodders are strong enough to survive a slice from kunai.


It doesn't make much sense, but you'll have to deal with it. You can clearly see that the tentacle was sliced from the direction of Minato's kunai, while Ei was pushed away. Can't be more obvious.

So either Minato's use of kunai is MUCH more dangerous than other people, or Hachibi is as durable as butter.


----------



## SenSensei (Jun 8, 2011)

Addy said:


> are you fu34ing serious?
> 
> and unless you think minato's kunai can go through raikage's shroud, i don't see how he outclassed him?
> 
> minato is faster but raikage is stronger and has a better defense.


Why was Raikage pushed away if Minato couldn't harm him?
Think about that. Raikage was saved from the Kunai for a reason.


----------



## dungsi27 (Jun 8, 2011)

shyakugaun said:


> from him moviing, this is V2



I thought he didnt move yet in that panel.

And in that panel you gave Raikage didnt have that little helmet to hold his hair.


----------



## PhoenixDasma (Jun 8, 2011)

I disagree.

First because I dont like batman personally. LOL

Second, you're forgetting that Minato has other skills. He has rasengan, and a bunch of other jutsu that we might not have seen.

Truth be told we didnt really see what Minato is all about because we always see him in short flashbacks.

The only thing u see is when he uses his special kunais. In contrast to Batman, can batman teleport using his tools? I dont think so! cuz batman has no real special power!

But Batman can never be a ninja. Ninjas are way faster and cooler. And they have REAL special powers.  =)


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Jun 8, 2011)

lathia said:


> I want to ask what makes you think "V2" will compare to "instant" movement? He already re-acted once with ease. The only arguments you & I have left are "IF" statements. Statements that mean nothing. You can try analyze all you want, nothing will be changed.



And when did I say that Raikage V2 is as fast as Minato?


----------



## SageRafa (Jun 8, 2011)

dungsi27 said:


> Nooooo and I thought I was the first one to notice that.
> 
> Anyway I think we need one thread about that so I want to delete my own thread do you know how to do that?



No problem I already asked a Mod and he merged them together


----------



## Hexa (Jun 8, 2011)

It definitely doesn't look like V2 at least. 

Raikage was younger so he could have been had faster synapses and faster reflexes than he does currently.  He didn't have the same amount of chakra that he pumped in when we saw his "V2" shunshin against Sasuke, on the other hand.


----------



## Tengu (Jun 8, 2011)

Funny how last week all the Minato fans were arguing so hard to prove to A wasn't referring to Hirashin, it was common sense actually.


----------



## Corax (Jun 8, 2011)

> Hachibi is as durable as butter.


Too bad but i think this is true. Humiliating really. Raiton spear is a one thing but steel kunai?Bad trolling.


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (Jun 8, 2011)

*yawn, its all irrelevent as raikage stated minato was the fastest. As far as I'm concerned, he is in V1 in this chapter, but I believe V2 merely increases raikages reflexes, not his speed as the lightning chakra augments his nerve system. That imo is the truth of it.


----------



## Faustus (Jun 8, 2011)

I lol'ed so hard when I saw those pages with Minato using hiraishin. All those screaming Minato was _naturally_ faster without any jutsu (except for shunshin) _just because_. That was just so stupid, million threads with "MINOTO IS FASTA WITHOUT HIRASHIN!!!111!!ONEONEONE!!!111!" are still there, in the Library.


----------



## joernyA the white flasch (Jun 8, 2011)

*Get over V1 or V2 - "Top Speed"*

A called it his topspeed
V1 and V2 are fanmade modes 
Kishi doesn't care
he said it was top speed and so it was top speed
and raikage seems to agree -> read chapter 541

but all 3 (minato,A,Bee) were just fucking aweseome
Minato just stood out the most


----------



## dungsi27 (Jun 8, 2011)

WhatADrag said:


> lol headband arguments
> 
> And no one is stating that Minato would regardless still not be faster than Raikage.
> 
> Calm your wanking.



Now now if you want to refute my arguement then Im listening.

Youre the one whos wanking we argue based on proof.


----------



## AoshiKun (Jun 8, 2011)

Did Minato's Kunai pierced A or not?
If so then Raikage is stronger nowadays.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jun 8, 2011)

I want to see the fight as Kages. From Raikage's statements last chapter it seems that Raikage v Minato 1v1, Minato won.

Still laughing at Minato 2 paneling Raikage


----------



## conradoserpa (Jun 8, 2011)

chakra-burned said:


> Sandaime was an old man and it slowed him down. I'm not arguing that that's the case with A, but it does leave things rather open.



I know, but Sandaime was 'an old man', A isn't lol


----------



## Han Solo (Jun 8, 2011)

There is no such thing as "V2" or "V1".

V2 is just the Raikage pumping more chakra into the lightning armor, you know, like how every character has been doing with their jutsu since forever?


----------



## Drakor (Jun 8, 2011)

Seeing as Raiton Shroud is whats amping A's reflexes, age shouldn't matter too much except for movement speed. Which is probably why he was able to avoid a point blank Amaterasu.

For Minato on the other hand, he didn't use anything to raise his reflexes. He was naturally that quick in reaction time, I don't see why people compare their techniques together as one involves a person physically moving while the other is a space time.

Raikage realized Minato's got quicker reflexes and his technique is instant, thus he's faster plain put.


----------



## Chibason (Jun 8, 2011)

..more like Superman, as in _faster than speeding bullet kunai_  

@poster above- Bruce Wayne does actually have ninjutsu training


----------



## Addy (Jun 8, 2011)

> Minato = Batman


i stopped reading here


----------



## FitzChivalry (Jun 8, 2011)

Isn't everyone easier to beat without prep time?


> First because I dont like batman personally. LOL


Blasphemy.


----------



## HawkMan (Jun 8, 2011)

Kuromaku said:


> Definitely Minato slicing it in the page picture.  Tentacle comes up to intervene, Minato slices it before it can get him, all the while tentacle has achieved its purpose of moving A out of the way.
> 
> Regardless, Minato was about to finish it for all we know (look at that slice).


Ya, it's definitely Minato. Though I doubt could sufficiently pierce Raikage with a kunai when Chidori couldn't. I still think it would have been interesting to prolong the battle, and it seems Minato did as well.


----------



## ? (Jun 8, 2011)

WhatADrag said:


> Full speed 20 years ago != Full speed now.


He said it was his full speed, deal with it. Until it is proven he can move faster now than he did back then, we go by what is said. Anything else is baseless speculation. I mean, Ei just said in the previous chapter Minato is faster than him and now we are being shown it


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (Jun 8, 2011)

Corax said:


> Too bad but i think this is true. Humiliating really. Raiton spear is a one thing but steel kunai?Bad trolling.



Pretty likely its enhanced by fuuton tbh.


----------



## Tengu (Jun 8, 2011)

He didn't left an after-image.


----------



## Geralt of Rivia (Jun 8, 2011)

PhoenixDasma said:


> I disagree.
> 
> First because I dont like batman personally. LOL
> 
> ...



He can have all those skills, the fact is without Hiraishin he's beatable. With it, his reflexes are insane and he's unreachable. Your best bet would be to throw a city buster on him or something...


----------



## lathia (Jun 8, 2011)

Cold said:


> So that should end it right.
> 
> Without hirashin, Raikage in his shroud is clearly faster.
> 
> But WITH HIRASHIN, which is a part of Minato's overall speed, Minato is clearly faster.  So no more of that Minato is faster than Raikage without hirashin nonsense.



This is the problem with logic like this. There is no without. Ultimately Minato > Raikage period (we'll leave it at speed for the sake of this argument). You can't take someone's ability and claim without it they won't. Hirashin is what gives Minato the advantage and it's what makes him who he is.


----------



## chakra-burned (Jun 8, 2011)

conradoserpa said:


> I know, but Sandaime was 'an old man', A isn't lol



A's at least 50 years old.


----------



## SageRafa (Jun 8, 2011)

AoshiKun said:


> Did Minato's Kunai pierced A or not?
> If so then Raikage is stronger nowadays.



Or that simply means that Minato striking power is stronger than Sasuke's Chidori or equal , no ?


----------



## Egotism (Jun 8, 2011)

I don't know. "V2" A looks more intense then what was shown in this chapter.  The head band thing seems like a stretch


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jun 8, 2011)

Minato (no prep) vs Madara (60yrs of prep)

Guess who went home running


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Jun 8, 2011)

Inu said:


> He said it was his full speed, deal with it. Until it is proven he can move faster now than he did back then, we go by what is said. I mean, Ei just said in the previous chapter Minato is faster than him and now we are being shown it


When did I state or imply that Raikage in V2 would be faster than Minato?

I didn't.

I merely stated that he did not use V2 against Minato.

Also by the very fact that he uses and pumps more chakra in V2 to amplify his speed (and is visually noticeable by character design), one can easily infer that his current speed surpasses his younger incarnation.


----------



## Geralt of Rivia (Jun 8, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Minato (no prep) vs Madara (60yrs of prep)
> 
> Guess who went home running



I fail to see how this is relevant to my thread.


----------



## ? (Jun 8, 2011)

AoshiKun said:


> Did Minato's Kunai pierced A or not?
> If so then Raikage is stronger nowadays.


Hachibi blocked it.


----------



## Big Bοss (Jun 8, 2011)

Han Solo said:


> There is no such thing as "V2" or "V1".
> 
> V2 is just the Raikage pumping more chakra into the lightning armor, you know, like how every character has been doing with their jutsu since forever?



Some people have a hard time accepting that Han.


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Jun 8, 2011)

Check out the visual difference of the aura surrounding Raikage in V2 compared to his aura in this chapter.

Don't ask me to link it for you.


----------



## chakra-burned (Jun 8, 2011)

Drakor said:


> Seeing as Raiton Shroud is whats amping A's reflexes, age shouldn't matter too much except for movement speed. Which is probably why he was able to avoid a point blank Amaterasu.
> 
> For Minato on the other hand, he didn't use anything to raise his reflexes. He was naturally that quick in reaction time, I don't see why people compare their techniques together as one involves a person physically moving while the other is a space time.
> 
> Raikage realized Minato's got quicker reflexes and his technique is instant, thus he's faster plain put.



Depends on how the technique works. But basically that just adds more questions. The fan dick wanking is really pointless IMO. We don't know enough.


----------



## Mr Horrible (Jun 8, 2011)

100% Ichigo said:


> You could also argue that Raikage was in his prime back then, he's old as fuck now.



This, aging is quite severe when it comes to reaction times too. 

Strength has a much longer peak than speed/reaction times.


----------



## Kael Hyun (Jun 8, 2011)

Corax said:


> So the 2nd strongest biju was sliced by a kunai?Mmm.Does this make sense?Even fodders are strong enough to survive a slice from kunai.



Minato is known as the strongest Kage for a reason. Don't like it? To bad!


----------



## Unknown (Jun 8, 2011)

Corax said:


> It was a simple kunai. Over wise A would have been dead. Fuuton>raiton.



A would have been dead. B saved him.

Also Hachibi is very durable, but Miato and Raikage are able to cut him, 2 Kages are able to cut him, It's just that.


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Jun 8, 2011)

chakra-burned said:


> You don't even know for sure that he didn't use "V2" (which is just an arbitrary way to say "full speed Raikage").



Yes I do. Read the manga.


----------



## chakra-burned (Jun 8, 2011)

WhatADrag said:


> Your reading comprehension is terrible.
> 
> When did I state or imply that Raikage in V2 would be faster than Minato?
> 
> ...



You don't even know for sure that he didn't use "V2" (which is just an arbitrary way to say "full speed Raikage").


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jun 8, 2011)

Again, can anyone give me a Manga page of version 2. Because there is no such thing as v2 in the manga. All there is a Raiton Armor, which increases as how much chakra you put in.

Raikage stated that was his full power, so that must v3 right


----------



## ?_Camorra_? (Jun 8, 2011)

V2 is a fan made term, Raikage usess Raiton armor, where in the manga Kishi mentions a V2 ?


----------



## Tengu (Jun 8, 2011)

I doubt the kunai would have harmed him.


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jun 8, 2011)

PhoenixDasma said:


> First because I dont like batman personally.



i stopped reading there.

also batman is always prepared



100% Ichigo said:


> I fail to see how this is relevant to my thread.




it's relevant because you said he's beatable when he doesn't prepare himself.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jun 8, 2011)

100% Ichigo said:


> I fail to see how this is relevant to my thread.



Minato didnt have any prep


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Jun 8, 2011)

lol at people with their "fan made term" arguments.

Sort of like how Rikudo Naruto is a "fan made term"


----------



## Corax (Jun 8, 2011)

Yeah it was obvious that without any special speed booster it is impossible to beat a ninja with it. Naruto for example has biju chakra,A raiton shroud etc,Minato hirashin etc.


----------



## chakra-burned (Jun 8, 2011)

alchemy1234 said:


> it was very obvious raikage was talking about space time ninjutsu. but minato fans wanted that one week of glory. Had they been patient and not made the claims they made, people wouldn't bash them as much.
> 
> now it is confirmed. Sasuke would speed blitz minato and destroy him.



Sasuke couldn't keep up with the Raikage either. That's why he went defensive...


----------



## AoshiKun (Jun 8, 2011)

I would like to know what Minato's kunai would do to Raikage if not even Chidori is effective.


----------



## Geralt of Rivia (Jun 8, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Minato didnt have any prep



Okay. You are saying he owned Madara without prep. 

How does this contradict my statement of him being beatable without prep?

There is more to ninja battles than meets the eye.


----------



## Tengu (Jun 8, 2011)

V2 has existed ever since it was shown, but now that A faced Minato, suddenly it doesn't exist anymore, gimme a break.


----------



## Helios (Jun 8, 2011)

HawkMan said:


> Undoubtedly his reflexes/speed has increased, likely due to his constant development of physical attributes.



Sure no problem with that.Things would remain the same though.You see if Minato had survived then logically he would have enhanced his powers even further and considering the fact that he was already one step in front of Raikage the outcome should be obvious.It comes down to what we knew since part one about Minato's potential and all that...

To be fair though thats a speculation so i wont persist.



HawkMan said:


> Minato still made short work of Raikage, but I'm not certain if his attacks could sufficiently penetrate Raikage's defense.



I was under the impression that the reason why Raiton Shroud blocked Sasuke's sword,was because it was enhanced with the lightning element.Much like how Sasuke prevented Bee from cutting Zabuza's sword in half.Besides Raikage commented surprised upon *Chidori* being able to pierce his armor.

Minato did not have problems landing Taijutsu blows on A.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jun 8, 2011)

Ok. Now who was talking about that. 

Stop trying to change the subject

To the poster above, please give a manga scan of Raikage saying v2? Might take you awhile.


----------



## Seph (Jun 8, 2011)

WhatADrag said:


> His top speed 20+ years ago isn't the same as his top speed now.
> 
> You people and your "fan made names" arguments. It's blatantly obvious by his aura its not the amount of chakra being pumped to augment his speed.
> 
> Deal with it.



Yeah, he's even slower, since he's older.

Deal with it.

People who think A sliced the tentacle.. well.. I don't know what to say.


----------



## Hexa (Jun 8, 2011)

Cool it down, WhatADrag.


----------



## Corax (Jun 8, 2011)

> A would have been dead


No he tanked Minato s first kunai stab. Obviously kunai wasn't enhanced by fuuton.


----------



## SageRafa (Jun 8, 2011)

The argument is not if there is a V2 or not .. Minato speedblitzed Raikage with A using his * fastest speed possible *, that's the point ..


----------



## Reddan (Jun 8, 2011)

This seemed fairly obvious from the start. We saw the limits of Minato's none Hiraishin speed against Madara. 

So when it goes in battle speed is something like this

Minato Hiraishin>Raikage V2>Sasuke>Raikage v1>Minato> Raikage.


----------



## alchemy1234 (Jun 8, 2011)

it is obvious its v2. thats why kishi made him say my fastest speed. plus raikage admitted minato is faster and now that he's dead there is no one faster than him. Then we get this flashback. its pretty obvious what the author is trying to indicate.

but i'm glad the preposterous claims minato fans made have been shot down by kishi. it was just so obvious minatos space time jutsu speed was being compared with raikages speed, but people wanted to twist statements to hype minato. i would have said a LOT more about them, but last time i got banned so i'm afraid to do so.


----------



## AoshiKun (Jun 8, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> Or that simply means that Minato striking power is stronger than Sasuke's Chidori or equal , no ?


That is hard to believe. Raikage showed to be as though as steel.


----------



## dungsi27 (Jun 8, 2011)

WhatADrag said:


> Why don't you read the manga.
> 
> Check out the visual difference of the aura surrounding Raikage in V2 compared to his aura in this chapter.
> 
> Don't ask me to link it for you.



Heres the link:
Link removed

I see no differences


----------



## shintebukuro (Jun 8, 2011)

Grαhf said:


> /thread. 10chartolazytotag



You're in denial. :rofl


----------



## chakra-burned (Jun 8, 2011)

KUKU_nr8 said:


> V2 has existed ever since it was shown, but now that A faced Minato, suddenly it doesn't exist anymore, gimme a break.



"V2" is just another fan name.


----------



## Unknown (Jun 8, 2011)

A did never tank Minato's kunai slash.

Because chidori is a raiton, as A's chakra shourd. While Minato probably used fuuton with overpowers the raiton.


----------



## FitzChivalry (Jun 8, 2011)

Corax said:


> No he tanked Minato s first kunai stab. Obviously kunai wasn't enhanced by fuuton.



Please stop making things up. What first kunai stab? Minato never got the chance thanks to Bee.


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Jun 8, 2011)

dungsi27 said:


> Heres the link:
> Link removed
> 
> I see no differences



Yes, a significantly larger Raiton aura and a lack of illustration in showing afterimages with Shunshin.

What difference, indeed?


----------



## Gabe (Jun 8, 2011)

minato was awesome by leaving a kunai in mid air teleporting to another one then teleporting to the kunai and kid air kneeing A. if it was not for bee A would have been in trouble.


----------



## shintebukuro (Jun 8, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> The argument is not if there is a V2 or not .. Minato speedblitzed Raikage with A using his * fastest speed possible *, that's the point ..



Yeah, maybe his "fastest speed" has increased in the last 20 years?


----------



## chakra-burned (Jun 8, 2011)

WhatADrag said:


> lol at people with their "fan made term" arguments.
> 
> Sort of like how Rikudo Naruto is a "fan made term"



It is. There's nothing special about "Rikudo Naruto" except that he's controlling the 9 tails chakra. That's why it's never called "Rikudo Naruto".


----------



## ? (Jun 8, 2011)

WhatADrag said:


> When did I state or imply that Raikage in V2 would be faster than Minato?
> 
> I didn't.
> 
> ...



Ei used 'V2', since it is his top speed. He said he used his top speed against Minato. You claiming he didn't have it back then is baseless speculation. The only difference we can use to tell is his hair being spiked up, which we can't notice because Ei has a headband on then, unlike now.


----------



## ?_Camorra_? (Jun 8, 2011)

WhatADrag said:


> Sasuke dodged Raikage's V1 naturally.
> 
> Minato needed a teleportation technique.
> 
> Problem?



Except even a snail can dodge a lightspeed movement if he had a sharingan  Seriously how hard is to evade a lightning strike if you knew where it would hit in advance ?  So dont make ridiculous statements as Sasuke being anywhere as fast as Raikage when he got speed blitzed by base Naruto and base Killer Bee.


----------



## Yuna (Jun 8, 2011)

Seraphiel said:


> Full speed at the time sry  Again I see no V2 or a strong shroud in that chapter.


It has been hinted twice now that two different people have managed to match A's full speed with his hair not changing both times. It's posibly Kishimoto either just forgot or retconned how V2 works.

We've seen it before (Amaterasu didn't cause Itachi's eye to bleed the first time we saw him use it).


----------



## Shidoshi (Jun 8, 2011)

The thing is, no one ever argued that A was faster than Minato with Hiraishin; the arguements were that Raikage was not including Hiraishin in his comment about being the fastest shinobi alive, which was just proven false.

Obviously teleportation outside of normal spacetime is going to be "faster" than moving within spacetime, but people were arguing that just because he wasn't including Madara as being "faster" than he, that he couldn't have been including Hiraishin in his comparison between himself and Minato...

...and now we know that A wasn't even aware that Minato wasn't using Shunshin no jutsu.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jun 8, 2011)

Why would Kishi waste a panel for Raikage to say "OMFG TAT WUZ MA F3stest!!!"

To imply Minato is a god ofc 

There is no v1 or v2. Raiton Armor is Raiton Armor and Raikage always admitted inferiority. Move on Itachifan.


----------



## Unknown (Jun 8, 2011)

arednad said:


> This seemed fairly obvious from the start. We saw the limits of Minato's none Hiraishin speed against Madara.
> 
> So when it goes in battle speed is something like this
> 
> Minato Hiraishin>Raikage V2>Raikage v1>Minato> Raikage>Gai>Itachi>kakashi>Sasuke.



 Agreed.


----------



## Judecious (Jun 8, 2011)

Corax said:


> No he tanked Minato s first kunai stab. Obviously kunai wasn't enhanced by fuuton.



What are you talking about?


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (Jun 8, 2011)

V1 and V2 have the same speed, its his reflexes which are enhanced due to the raiton chakra augmenting the nerve system.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jun 8, 2011)

Most common sense people know this.


----------



## Trent (Jun 8, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> The argument is not if there is a V2 or not .. Minato speedblitzed Raikage with A using his * fastest speed possible *, that's the point ..



Yes, and the other argument that his current speed is superior is based on him being shown putting a lot more chakra in his raiton armor,what we call V2, further enhancing the efficiency of the jutsu.

This chapter clearly showed he didn't/couldn't infuse as much chakra in his raiton armor hence his max speed then < his current max speed.


----------



## FitzChivalry (Jun 8, 2011)

Judecious said:


> What are you talking about?



A kunai stab executed by Minato to A that never happened.


----------



## conradoserpa (Jun 8, 2011)

*Everything Minato does while Raikage is still in punch pose. You slow, bro!*

Yes. People, somehow, say it's all about Yondaime special ST technique and not his speed. 

Maybe it was too fast for some of the readers, so here it is, in slow motion.

So let's see:

*Minato see the attack:*
​
*Minato teleport to a tree:*
​
*Minato trhow a Kunai:*
​
*Minato teleport to the Kunai and GRABS it:*
​
*A is saved by Bee from Minato Kunai attack:*
​
SO TELL ME, if Minato isn't THAT fast, how the Raikage wasn't able to EVEN STOP THE PUNCH POSE WHILE MINATO DID ALL THAT LOL


----------



## Tengu (Jun 8, 2011)

I don't think it matters much since Minato is still faster.

Still did A leave a after-image like he did when he evade Amaterasu?


----------



## Yuna (Jun 8, 2011)

shyakugaun said:


> its the wind LOL


V1 can protect against a Chidori to the heart, yet it can't protect against he wind? And if it's the wind, how come *his goatee is stationary*?


----------



## CandleGuy (Jun 8, 2011)

FitzChivalry said:


> A kunai stab executed by Minato to A that never happened.



How is that tanking then?


----------



## Yuna (Jun 8, 2011)

Shidoshi said:


> ...and now we know that A wasn't even aware that Minato wasn't using Shunshin no jutsu.


You don't think he became aware of that sometime inbetween that skirmish and now?


----------



## Tengu (Jun 8, 2011)

chakra-burned said:


> "V2" is just another fan name.



That was accepted by everybody till last week.


----------



## Danchou (Jun 8, 2011)

Actually, this chapter proved that Raikage's speed is far greater than Minato's speed. Even though Raikage was attacking him from dozens of feet away, Minato was incapable of reacting to his speed up until Raikage's fist was a few centimers away from his face.

He would have died in one shot if it weren't for his body flicker technique saving him.


----------



## chakra-burned (Jun 8, 2011)

shintebukuro said:


> Yeah, maybe his "fastest speed" has increased in the last 20 years?



Or maybe it's decreased because he's an old man. Or maybe it's stayed the same because he got slower from age but his technique is better. See what I did thar?


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Jun 8, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Why would Kishi waste a panel for Raikage to say "OMFG TAT WUZ MA F3stest!!!"
> 
> To imply Minato is a god ofc
> 
> There is no v1 or v2. Raiton Armor is Raiton Armor and Raikage always admitted inferiority. Move on Itachifan.



When was I arguing that Raikage in V2 would surpass Minato's speed? 



KUKU_nr8 said:


> I don't think it matters much since Minato is still faster.
> 
> Still did A leave a after-image like he did when he evade Amaterasu?



That he did.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 8, 2011)

I do not know why Killer bee helped A out, when was a kunai stronger then Chidori?

A would of been fine, Minato's kunai would of broke.


----------



## Succubus (Jun 8, 2011)

wait where stated v2 increases speed?


----------



## SageRafa (Jun 8, 2011)

Trent said:


> Yes, and the other argument that his current speed is superior is based on him being shown putting a lot more chakra in his raiton armor,what we call V2, further enhancing the efficiency of the jutsu.
> 
> This chapter clearly showed he didn't/couldn't infuse as much chakra in his raiton armor hence his max speed then < his current max speed.



Prove me he didn't use "V2" , I already proved it to you that he does use it 

And Raikage words " my full speed " and " he was faster and unsurpassable " are > than your assumptions ..


----------



## dungsi27 (Jun 8, 2011)

WhatADrag said:


> Yes, a significantly larger Raiton aura and a lack of illustration in showing afterimages with Shunshin.
> 
> What difference, indeed?



If you would just have a look at some pages before that you will see his V2 shroud is no bigger than his V1.

And the afterimage is used to show us how his speed couldnt be catched even by the sharingan.We were basically looking through Sasukes eyes.

In no other panel,where Raikage used V2,that we saw the afterimage effect.


----------



## chakra-burned (Jun 8, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> V1 can protect against a Chidori to the heart, yet it can't protect against he wind? And if it's the wind, how come *his goatee is stationary*?



Wind>Lightning. Where were you when Pokemon came out? Anyways we don't know if a fuuton was used, but that was a pretty clean and wide cut for a small sharp edge.


----------



## Trent (Jun 8, 2011)

Sniffers said:


> *"Top speed" is constant. *The Raiton Armour only amps the reflexes. Top speed and reflexes are not coupled as Kakashi showed when his movements were to fast for his reflexes.
> 
> A might've trained "V2" to fight Minato. That is to _react_ quickly as Minato blitzes to his blindside with Hiraishin. "V2" wouldn't increase his movement speed though. Minato is simply faster in that department.



Nope.

Even with the basic shunshin, one's top speed is linked to how much chakra is put into it and A's raiton armor is no different.

The _enhanced _speed of "V2" couldn't have been made more plain with the afterimage left by A after having evaded Amaterasu.


----------



## Yuna (Jun 8, 2011)

A claims that Minato was the fastest, end of story. Even if A became faster by creating V2, A still admits that if one were to compare Minato's top speed and his own top speed in their primes, Minato would win. Minato is the fastest shinobi in history, according to A.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Jun 8, 2011)

Its nonsense that Minato was allowed to prep infront of all those guys.

Raikage couldve nuked him while he was prepping but they just enjoyed the sight of all those pretty Kunais scathering around them.

Anywho...
The kunai wouldnt have done jack to Raikage...if Minato knew Rasengan however...it was Game for Raikage.


----------



## Sennin of Hardwork (Jun 8, 2011)

In terms of speed signature techniques, Minato's Hiraishin > A's Raiton no Yoroi. But I am sure if it comes to be about strenght it would be A > Minato.



Grαhf said:


> But yeah looking forward to see if Kishi shows us the fight as Kages, maybe we will learn how Minato take the idea of the Rasengan and see that image that was shown when Bee tought about him for the first time.



Indeed, the final page foreshadowed another fight between them.


----------



## SpitFire (Jun 8, 2011)

Shidoshi said:


> The thing is, no one ever argued that A was faster than Minato with Hiraishin; the arguements were that Raikage was not including Hiraishin in his comment about being the fastest shinobi alive, which was just proven false.
> 
> Obviously teleportation outside of normal spacetime is going to be "faster" than moving within spacetime, but people were arguing that just because he wasn't including Madara as being "faster" than he, that he couldn't have been including Hiraishin in his comparison between himself and Minato...
> 
> ...and now we know that A wasn't even aware that Minato wasn't using Shunshin no jutsu.



Every other thread that popped up during the Raikage Sasuke battle was a Raikage>Minato thread, so I have to disagree that no one ever argued that. It's bs. 

Secondly, last chapter Raikage stated that Minato was faster than himself, so it's an irrefutable fact.


----------



## Hexa (Jun 8, 2011)

chakra-burned said:


> Or maybe it's decreased because he's an old man. Or maybe it's stayed the same because he got slower from age but his technique is better. See what I did thar?


That's . . . totally possible.

Though, I think just it's obvious that his "full-powered" mode against Sasuke involved a lot more chakra (at the very least) than what we saw here.  But the Raikage's natural reflexes and natural synapse speed should have degraded from then on, making his base mode slower.


----------



## Reddan (Jun 8, 2011)

Yes Minato was stronger than the Raikage and probably had the peak speed possible for a human. Only way to get faster than Minato is to have the sharingan, Bijuu or open gates. However, Minato is a genius and so developed Hiraishin to put him above everyone. The only person older than Minato, who is stronger than him is Nagato.


----------



## CandleGuy (Jun 8, 2011)

Danchou said:


> Actually, this chapter proved that Raikage's speed is far greater than Minato's speed. Even though Raikage was attacking him from dozens of feet away, Minato was incapable of reacting to his speed up until Raikage's fist was a few centimers away from his face.
> 
> He would have died in one shot if it weren't for his body flicker technique saving him.



Unless the body flicker is an automatic defense you don't think reacting to a fist being centimeters from his face and activating the jutsu is a reflexive/speed feat?


----------



## bearzerger (Jun 8, 2011)

Your understanding of the chapter is a bit wrong.

A charges at Minato. Minato follows his movements until he is just about to be hit and then he uses Hiraishin simultaneously tossing the kunai he held in his hand up so it's right over the A's back an instant later. Minato uses Hiraishin again to teleport back to the kunai he has placed above A's back. B has seen the kunai above A and immediately uses a tentacle to protect his brother. The tentacle pushes A aside and Minato cuts the tentacle instead of A.


----------



## Hexa (Jun 8, 2011)

It's not physically even possible to become faster than Hiraishin, I don't think.


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Jun 8, 2011)

Hexa said:


> That's . . . totally possible.
> 
> Though, I think just it's obvious that his "full-powered" mode against Sasuke involved a lot more chakra (at the very least) than what we saw here.  But the Raikage's natural reflexes and natural synapse speed should have degraded from then on, making his base mode slower.



Proving why Hexa is a great mod.


----------



## AoshiKun (Jun 8, 2011)

CandleGuy said:


> Unless the body flicker is an automatic defense you don't think reacting to a fist being centimeters from his face and activating the jutsu is a reflexive/speed feat?


Reflex and body speed are two different things however Minato have both anyway. Raikage simply have more due to Raiton Armor.


----------



## Shidoshi (Jun 8, 2011)

KUKU_nr8 said:


> I don't think it matters much since Minato is still faster.
> 
> Still did A leave a after-image like he did when he evade Amaterasu?


No.

But even if that *was* his V2 during that fight, he didn't exibit the chakra bubbles that he did when facing Mangekyou Sasuke, which _suggests_ that he improved his speed, or at least his reflexes and chakra supply between then and the Kage Summit.

However, it's still a moot point as speed in teleportation transit is always going to be faster than moving within normal spacetime; the only thing that can be said is that if Raikage were faster than he was then, he *might* have actually succeeded in hitting Minato before Minato was able to jump into his Hiraishin aperture...as it was, his fist was less than an inch from Minato's face before Minato managed to warp himself to another tag.

If C was correct about A's reflexes being at least Minato's level without Raiton augmentation, Minato would still had to have been on his guard during their whole exchange, because Raikage was _still_ fucking fast.


----------



## Succubus (Jun 8, 2011)

I lol'd seein Minato would one-shot Raikage if it werent for bee


----------



## Hamaru (Jun 8, 2011)

People, the two of them end up fighting many times. It is likely that Raikage's "V2" is something created after the fight shown so that he could keep up better, which is why it seems to use more chakra now.


----------



## Gabe (Jun 8, 2011)

it was great


----------



## CrazyMoronX (Jun 8, 2011)

Minato's speed is still overrated. His teleportation is what makes him fast, not his natural speed.

He does have great reactions though.


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Jun 8, 2011)

Shidoshi said:


> No.
> 
> But even if that *was* his V2 during that fight, he didn't exibit the chakra bubbles that he did when facing Mangekyou Sasuke, which _suggests_ that he improved his speed, or at least his reflexes and chakra supply between then and the Kage Summit.
> 
> ...



Excellent post.

I would rep if I didn't have null power.


----------



## blacksword (Jun 8, 2011)

Minato purposefully left the kunai at Raikage's back before teleporting.


----------



## Gaara77demon (Jun 8, 2011)

he never threw a shuriken. It was the one he was holding before he got punched. he let go of it and it flew above raikage as raikage went by it minato teleported back to it


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Jun 8, 2011)

Hamaru said:


> People, the two of them end up fighting many times. It is likely that Raikage's "V2" is something created after the fight shown so that he could keep up better, which is why it seems to use more chakra now.



Ex-fucking-actly.


----------



## SpitFire (Jun 8, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Its nonsense that Minato was allowed to prep infront of all those guys.
> 
> Raikage couldve nuked him while he was prepping but they just enjoyed the sight of all those pretty Kunais scathering around them.
> 
> ...



Lol, how is throwing Kunais prepping? Minato can teleport to a kunai mid-flight if he wanted to, so if they attacked him while he was so called, "prepping", they still wouldn't be able to do anything about. It probably took 1-2 seconds to throw all of those I bet. How could anyone stop that?


----------



## Tengu (Jun 8, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Its nonsense that Minato was allowed to prep infront of all those guys.
> 
> Raikage couldve nuked him while he was prepping but they just enjoyed the sight of all those pretty Kunais scathering around them.
> 
> ...



Minato invented rasengan


----------



## manga genius (Jun 8, 2011)

What this chapter makes very clear is that Minato can't be touched, if he really wants.

It completely eradicates the need for a special defense making Minato almost unbeatable.

How can you kill someone you can't touch? The best you can hope for is a draw.


----------



## chakra-burned (Jun 8, 2011)

Hexa said:


> That's . . . totally possible.
> 
> Though, I think just it's obvious that his "full-powered" mode against Sasuke involved a lot more chakra (at the very least) than what we saw here.  But the Raikage's natural reflexes and natural synapse speed should have degraded from then on, making his base mode slower.



Mhmm. That's why I think this discussion is fruitless and dumb. We don't know enough.


----------



## Hamaru (Jun 8, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> He did? He needed teleportation to avoid getting punched in the face.



People seem to miss that part.


----------



## Judecious (Jun 8, 2011)

If Bee wasn't there A would be gone right now lol


----------



## CandleGuy (Jun 8, 2011)

AoshiKun said:


> Reflex and body speed is a completely different thing.



Never said they were the same. 

It takes reflexes to react to the punch, correct me if I'm wrong but if the body flicker requires any kind of hand seal or Minato touching his body then to me that can easily be interpreted as a speed feat,


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jun 8, 2011)

Hamaru said:


> People, the two of them end up fighting many times. It is likely that Raikage's "V2" is something created after the fight shown so that he could keep up better, which is why it seems to use more chakra now.



What was created? Its the same Raiton Armor. Please read the manga before posting.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Jun 8, 2011)

Hamaru said:


> People seem to miss that part.



And?A needed his shroud.So A's shroud is A-OK but Minato's hirashin is not


----------



## Tengu (Jun 8, 2011)

manga genius said:


> What this chapter makes very clear is that Minato can't be touched, if he really wants.
> 
> It completely eradicates the need for a special defense making Minato almost unbeatable.
> 
> How can you kill someone you can't touch? The best you can hope for is a draw.



cough...Genjutsu...cough


----------



## Danchou (Jun 8, 2011)

Danchou said:


> Actually, this chapter proved that Raikage's speed is far greater than Minato's speed. Even though Raikage was attacking him from dozens of feet away, Minato was incapable of reacting to his speed up until Raikage's fist was a few centimers away from his face.
> 
> He would have died in one shot if it weren't for his body flicker technique saving him.


In addition to this, a chidori barely pierced Raikage and his lightning armor. Even if Minato would've surprise attacked Raikage with a kunai, it still wouldn't really damage him.

I love how people enjoy jumping to conclusions.


----------



## Skywalker (Jun 8, 2011)

But it eludes so many people still.


----------



## conradoserpa (Jun 8, 2011)

Gaara77demon said:


> he never threw a shuriken. It was the one he was holding before he got punched. he let go of it and it flew above raikage as raikage went by it minato teleported back to it



But that makes Minato dumb. Otherwise all he needed to do was teleport to THAT kunai and not to a tree and then to another Kunai. There was no need - only if he didn't wanted to attack A lol


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Jun 8, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> What was created? Its the same Raiton Armor. Please read the manga before posting.



Yes because techniques can obviously not be improved on


----------



## AoshiKun (Jun 8, 2011)

manga genius said:


> What this chapter makes very clear is that Minato can't be touched, if he really wants.



This chapter makes very clear that Minato is _that_ dependent of Hiraishin and is very hard to take him down without special abilities.

I'd like to see more jutsus from him indeed.



CandleGuy said:


> Never said they were the same.
> 
> It takes reflexes to react to the punch, correct me if I'm wrong but if the body flicker requires any kind of hand seal or Minato touching his body then to me that can easily be interpreted as a speed feat,


Minato can automatically teleport to any kunai he wants to.


----------



## Skywalker (Jun 8, 2011)

Do you people ever stop?


----------



## Sniffers (Jun 8, 2011)

manga genius said:


> What this chapter makes very clear is that Minato can't be touched, if he really wants.
> 
> It completely eradicates the need for a special defense making Minato almost unbeatable.
> 
> How can you kill someone you can't touch? The best you can hope for is a draw.


Genjutsu. 

No seriously, you're not going to catch him with Taijutsu or Ninjutsu [maybe close-range Amaterasu], so what remains is Genjutsu. Though if he has some sort of excellent defense for that then it's game over.


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Jun 8, 2011)

So Sasuke's top speed at VoTE would be his top speed now?

Relativity, how does it work.


----------



## chakra-burned (Jun 8, 2011)

WhatADrag said:


> Yes, a significantly larger Raiton aura and a lack of illustration in showing afterimages with Shunshin.
> 
> What difference, indeed?





KUKU_nr8 said:


> I don't think it matters much since Minato is still faster.
> 
> Still did A leave a after-image like he did when he evade Amaterasu?





Lack of illustration showing Sasuke reading people's movements. Does that mean Sasuke has stopped using that ability? Nah. It just means Kishi doesn't want to draw it every time. That lazy bastard.


----------



## SageRafa (Jun 8, 2011)

But you guys are saying that he * might * have created after , but prove it please ..

Here it's not assumptions and opinions .. We give you proofs you guys need to back your arguments with proofs .. If you don't have then it never happened .. try going to a trial and convince the judge with assumptions when your opponent gives concrete proofs .. See who will be demeed(sp) right


----------



## Skywalker (Jun 8, 2011)

If Bee wasn't there Minato would've ended him there.


----------



## SenSensei (Jun 8, 2011)

Danchou said:


> In addition to this, a chidori barely pierced Raikage and his lightning armor. Even if Minato would've surprise attacked Raikage with a kunai, it still wouldn't really damage him.
> 
> I love how people enjoy jumping to conclusions.


And that's exactly why Bee saved A. Because Minato's Kunai would not have damaged him.


----------



## blacksword (Jun 8, 2011)

> What this chapter makes very clear is that Minato can't be touched, if he really wants.
> 
> It completely eradicates the need for a special defense making Minato almost unbeatable.
> 
> How can you kill someone you can't touch? The best you can hope for is a draw.


1) Tsukyomi
2) Chou shinra tensei(unless Minato had tag on another country)
3) Bijuu mod
4) Edo Tensei


----------



## Shidoshi (Jun 8, 2011)

SpitFire said:


> Every other thread that popped up during the Raikage Sasuke battle was a Raikage>Minato thread, so I have to disagree that no one ever argued that. It's bs.
> 
> Secondly, last chapter Raikage stated that Minato was faster than himself, so it's an irrefutable fact.


Pay attention.  People were saying that A was including Hiraishin, but that *without* Hiraishin, he was faster than Minato...

...which is hard to disprove considering A was able to get within less than an inch of Minato's face before Minato was able to react with Hiraishin.

But you cannot honestly sit there and type a statement saying you didn't read people typing that A was not including Hiraishin when he made his statement comapring Minato to himself...

...because you'd be blind or a goddamned liar.


----------



## Hamaru (Jun 8, 2011)

bearzerger said:


> Your understanding of the chapter is a bit wrong.
> 
> A charges at Minato. Minato follows his movements until he is just about to be hit and then he uses Hiraishin simultaneously tossing the kunai he held in his hand up so it's right over the A's back an instant later. Minato uses Hiraishin again to teleport back to the kunai he had placed above A's back. B had seen the kunai above A and immediately uses a tentacle to protect his brother. The tentacle pushes A aside and Minato cuts the tentacle instead of A.



This is the same thing I was thinking. Also, people seem to forget that Minato tossed a lot of his special kunai around the battle-field before the fight so he essentially had prep. If A charged him before he tossed the kunai out, he may have gotten knocked out.


----------



## CandleGuy (Jun 8, 2011)

Danchou said:


> In addition to this, a chidori barely pierced Raikage and his lightning armor. Even if Minato would've surprise attacked Raikage with a kunai, it still wouldn't really damage him.
> 
> I love how people enjoy jumping to conclusions.



It aint jumping to conclusions when the kunai cut through a eight tails tentacle. Not saying is conclusive evidence but Kishi portrayed it as if the tentacle wasn't sacrificed...well there had to be a reason B though Raikage needed protecting.


----------



## Kool-Aid (Jun 8, 2011)

that was his top speed at the time

V2 could have been something he developed later.


----------



## manga genius (Jun 8, 2011)

KUKU_nr8 said:


> cough...Genjutsu...cough




Minato outspeeds Genjutsus


----------



## Lelouch71 (Jun 8, 2011)

This week proves that Minato without hiraishin is slower than Raikage. However, with hiraishin he's the fastest man in the Narutoverse.


----------



## SpitFire (Jun 8, 2011)

Shidoshi said:


> Pay attention.  People were saying that A was including Hiraishin, but that *without* Hiraishin, he was faster than Minato...
> 
> ...which is hard to disprove considering A was able to get within less than an inch of Minato's face before Minato was able to react with Hiraishin.
> 
> ...



Lets make a debate where Raikage doesn't get to use his shroud and Minato doesn't get to use Hirashin then. See how much sense that makes?

Also here's the page of Bee's Cousin!!!

I guess Raikage is a "goddamned liar" with this statement. Find another translation if this statement is wrong or gtfo. If Minato can't react, then using Hirashin is useless anyway. It still takes being able to react to use the jutsu. Hirashin doesn't work on it's own.


----------



## MasterKakuzu (Jun 8, 2011)

I still see v1 and v2 the same. He's just pumping more chakra to go have faster reflexes/movement.


----------



## Do ya (Jun 8, 2011)

Funny how people say, that without Hiraishin, Minato is slower than Raikage, yet it's the raiton shroud (yes, a technique, just like Hiraishin), that makes Raikage faster than most people


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 8, 2011)

Well if you want to be technical Raikage is faster, Minato can just teleport. 

Even if the Raikage could move at light speed Minato would still be faster in the Raikages mind, because Minato can get to point B from point A in a Instant. 

I think the Battle dome will have fun with this though, If minato does not have tags already set up, the Raikage bashes his skull in.


----------



## Skywalker (Jun 8, 2011)

All he needs is a cape.

Oh wait.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jun 8, 2011)

Dang Minato. If it wasnt for Bee you would have two paneled the Raikage and set off the cycle of hatred. 

I thought more highly of you Minato


----------



## blacksword (Jun 8, 2011)

> This week proves that Minato without hiraishin is slower than Raikage. However, with hiraishin he's the fastest man in the Narutoverse.


It was obvious from the beginning, but some Minatofans was desperetaly trying to prove that he was fastest without hiraishin. Which is false anyway


----------



## Jak N Blak (Jun 8, 2011)

KUKU_nr8 said:


> Minato invented rasengan



I know. Its not clear if he had created already at the time of this fight.


----------



## Skywalker (Jun 8, 2011)

His reactions are just amazing, that's all.


----------



## Trent (Jun 8, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> Prove me he didn't use "V2" , I already proved it to you that he does use it
> 
> And Raikage words " my full speed " and " he was faster and unsurpassable " are > than your assumptions ..



The relevant pages have already been posted in the thread. 

The recent use of "V2" clearly shows more chakra has been put into the jutsu hence the bigger aura and higher speed.

If we just remove these V1/V2 fan terms, his raiton aura then simply was smaller than the one recently used hence his max speed was lesser than his max speed now.



Bikko said:


> wait where stated v2 increases speed?



Really? 

That's basically the main point of the jutsu alongside enhanced reflexes and elemental armor.


----------



## FireEel (Jun 8, 2011)

It was never in doubt that Minato > Raikage.


----------



## Naruto (Jun 8, 2011)

Here's what I see:

Minato beat the fastest speedster alive. If Raikage's speed wasn't enough to beat Minato's hiraishin prep, then does it matter whose base speed is faster?



WhatADrag said:


> Sasuke base speed > Minato base speed.
> 
> confirmed.



We don't know Minato's base speed. Therefore, it isn't confirmed.



WhatADrag said:


> Yes, because 20+ years ago, V1 was his full speed.
> 
> He obviously developed V2 after the fight.



It's kinda weird referring to anything as the first version if there isn't a second version. We didn't go around saying Mass Effect 1 until Mass Effect 2 was announced. 

The Raikage also clearly stated Minato bested his full speed, and that they met more than once. Considering these two statements and the fact that the one flashback we saw represents one of many encounters, you lack sufficient evidence to support your claim. The burden of proof is on you.



shintebukuro said:


> So now we know who the Minato tards are huh? Come on, guys, let me subscribe to your newsletter. So unbiased, and so smart.



...And this is why I'm closing the thread. Because you guys can't keep it civil.

I might merge further speed threads here and reopen this *if *you can converse without turning it into a shitstorm.


----------



## SageRafa (Jun 8, 2011)

Hamaru said:


> This is the same thing I was thinking. Also, people seem to forget that Minato tossed a lot of his special kunai around the battle-field before the fight so he essentially had prep. If A charged him before he tossed the kunai out, he may have gotten knocked out.



He didn't have prep he was standing what 10 meters from A and B , they could've stop him * if they could * ..


----------



## G-Man (Jun 8, 2011)

Hamaru said:


> This is the same thing I was thinking. Also, people seem to forget that Minato tossed a lot of his special kunai around the battle-field before the fight so he essentially had prep. If A charged him before he tossed the kunai out, he may have gotten knocked out.



Assuming he doesn't have kunai or Hiraishin tags elsewhere, though that would require him temporarily leaving the battlefield, he could always drop the one he was holding, teleport somewhere else, and teleport back (assuming he was willing to take the risk of teleporting back in blind).  So, Minato could have still escaped, though it'd be riskier to return to the battlefield unless he has some sort of situational awareness of the kunai's locations when he teleports to them.


----------



## Skywalker (Jun 8, 2011)

V2 is just increased reflexes.


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Jun 8, 2011)

Trent said:


> The relevant pages have already been posted in the thread.
> 
> The recent use of "V2" clearly shows more chakra has been put into the jutsu hence the bigger aura and higher speed.
> 
> If we just remove these V1/V2 fan terms, his raiton aura then simply was smaller than the one recently used hence his max speed was lesser than his max speed now.



*pouts and stomps foot*

BUT V2 IS A FAN MAAAADE TEEEERRMMM. MY ARGUMENT IS WIN


----------



## Yuna (Jun 8, 2011)

chakra-burned said:


> Wind>Lightning. Where were you when Pokemon came out? Anyways we don't know if a fuuton was used, but that was a pretty clean and wide cut for a small sharp edge.


Fuuton > Raiton. Regular wind can't to shit to Raiton. Also, you clearly didn't read what I was replying to. The post claims A's hair was moving due to the wind. It had nothing to with Minato's kunai attack.


----------



## blacksword (Jun 8, 2011)

> He didn't have prep he was standing what 10 meters from A and B , they could've stop him if they could ..


If Raikage charged toawards minato before he placed kunais all over the place minato would've been knocked out. Only Hiraishin saved Minato there


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Jun 8, 2011)

Skywalker said:


> V2 is just increased reflexes.



It's faster speed as well.

Explain why Sasuke was able to out maneuver V1, but was blitzed by V2?

Stretch moar.


----------



## manga genius (Jun 8, 2011)

blacksword said:


> 1) Tsukyomi
> 2) Chou shinra tensei(unless Minato had tag on another country)
> 3) Bijuu mod
> 4) Edo Tensei




1) Tsukyomi requires eye contact, sharingan can't even keep up with Minato's speed.
2) Minato is faster than the the time it takes to use Chou shinra tensei
3) What that gonna do?
4) What that gonna do?


----------



## Yuna (Jun 8, 2011)

KUKU_nr8 said:


> I don't think it matters much since Minato is still faster.
> 
> Still did A leave a after-image like he did when he evade Amaterasu?


That was just Kishimoto's way of establishing that A evaded Amaterasu and that Sasuke didn't just miss or something.


----------



## conradoserpa (Jun 8, 2011)

blacksword said:


> If Raikage charged toawards minato before he placed kunais all over the place minato would've been knocked out. Only Hiraishin saved Minato there



He wouldn't. The first thing Minato did was trhow a Kunai in a tree. So he had this escape plan done before anything.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 8, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> He did? He needed teleportation to avoid getting punched in the face.



This.

/Thread.


----------



## Danchou (Jun 8, 2011)

SenSensei said:


> And that's exactly why Bee saved A. Because Minato's Kunai would not have damaged him.


No, because they're a tag team.

Think logically, if Sasuke's chidori can barely pierce Raikage's armor, how is a kunai supposed to pierce him?





CandleGuy said:


> It aint jumping to conclusions when the kunai cut through a eight tails tentacle. Not saying is conclusive evidence but Kishi portrayed it as if the tentacle wasn't sacrificed...well there had to be a reason B though Raikage needed protecting.


Sasuke's lightningblade also cut through the eight tails' tentacle. It's nothing special.

And still Sasuke's chidori couldn't even really pierce Raikage's armor.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jun 8, 2011)

Wow, so Raikage uses a ninjutsu but Minato cant


----------



## Penance (Jun 8, 2011)

chakra-burned said:


> *Depends on how the technique works. But basically that just adds more questions. The fan dick wanking is really pointless IMO. We don't know enough.*





?_Camorra_? said:


> V2 is a fan made term, Raikage usess Raiton armor, where in the manga Kishi mentions a V2 ?



That is all...


----------



## Gunners (Jun 8, 2011)

He whooped his ass so bad he had to start bragging about his younger brother's talent.


----------



## Hamaru (Jun 8, 2011)

> He didn't have prep he was standing what 10 meters from A and B , they could've stop him if they could ..


They didn't try to stop him. 


> Assuming he doesn't have kunai or Hiraishin tags elsewhere, though that would require him temporarily leaving the battlefield, he could always drop the one he was holding, teleport somewhere else, and teleport back (assuming he was willing to take the risk of teleporting back in blind). So, Minato could have still escaped, though it'd be riskier to return to the battlefield unless he has some sort of situational awareness of the kunai's locations when he teleports to them.



Minato would have been able to escape, but if he tried to renter the battle with one dropped kunai, he would get rocked. Bee showed that he could react to Minato's teleportation.



> He wouldn't. The first thing Minato did was trhow a Kunai in a tree. So he had this escape plan done before anything.


Lol, which is also called prep.


----------



## SageRafa (Jun 8, 2011)

Trent said:


> The relevant pages have already been posted in the thread.
> 
> The recent use of "V2" clearly shows more chakra has been put into the jutsu hence the bigger aura and higher speed.
> 
> ...



Look at the picture you showed me .. In the first panel Raikage was " V1 " do you see bolts around him like SSJ2 ? No you don't .. In the moment he goes "V2 do you see the bolts around him ? Now look at tha page he was * trying * to punch Minato , do you see the bolts ? Yes .. So it's "V2" ..

Plus the air moving up and being restricted by the headband ..


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jun 8, 2011)

Gunners said:


> He whooped his ass so bad he had to start bragging about his younger brother's talent.



Haha, yeh. I noticed that too. His pride took a shot to the face when he was nearly 2 paneled.


----------



## blacksword (Jun 8, 2011)

> He wouldn't. The first thing Minato did was trhow a Kunai in a tree. So he had this escape plan done before anything.


He wouldn't able to escape Raikage's punch without using hiraishin.


----------



## manga genius (Jun 8, 2011)

Lelouch71 said:


> This week proves that Minato without hiraishin is slower than Raikage. However, with hiraishin he's the fastest man in the Narutoverse.




This week proves that Raikage without lightning shroud is slower than Minato. However, with Raiton shroud, er... he still can't touch Minato


----------



## Shidoshi (Jun 8, 2011)

SpitFire said:


> Lets make a debate where Raikage doesn't get to use his shroud and Minato doesn't get to use Hirashin then. See how much sense that makes?


Until we see that, we can only work with what we got.  I never said I agreed with their assessment, the only thing I'm saying is that those people were *correct* to say that A was including Hiraishin in his statement -- which was plainly obvious to anyone who can think for themselves and not parrot what rabid Minato-tards were saying.



> _deflect a Raiton enhanced sword
> 
> I guess Raikage is a "goddamned liar" with this statement. Find another translation or gtfo._


Again, pay attention!  Obviously Raikage was saying that Minato was faster than he was;  I never contested that, Sparky.  It's just that there were plenty of people saying that A *was not including* Hiraishin in that statement, which is what I was talking about.

Your reply was not focusing on what Raikage said, we're talking about what these threads contained.

So, again, if you can sit there and type a reply saying you *never saw anyone on these forums say, unequivocally, that A's comparison was not including Hiraishin*, you're either blind or a goddamned liar.


----------



## Yuna (Jun 8, 2011)

blacksword said:


> 1) Tsukyomi
> 2) Chou shinra tensei(unless Minato had tag on another country)
> 3) Bijuu mod
> 4) Edo Tensei


1) Because Minato makes it a point to stare his opponents in the eye?
2) It's a slow Jutsu. And why would he not have teleportation kunais spread around in safehouses? If push comes to shove, he could just throw kunai into the air and teleport to it since Shina Tensei has a limited aerial range. It's your best agument, though, I'll give you that.
3) How would Bijuu Mode clearly beat Minato? Minato's faster than A, who's either the fastest or 2nd to fastest person alive.
4) Huh? How is that even an argument?


----------



## Fear (Jun 8, 2011)

The Raikage would have been sliced in two, had it not been for his little Brother.

And nobody give me that terrible excuse ''It wouldn't have done nothing to him.'' Yeah, right. Because Kishimoto explicitly showed B _saving_ his brother.


----------



## Lelouch71 (Jun 8, 2011)

No Tobirama is Batman, Hashirama is Superman, and Minato is Goku.


----------



## G-Man (Jun 8, 2011)

blacksword said:


> He wouldn't able to escape Raikage's punch without using hiraishin.



Agreed.  Minato has the perception speed and reflexes to see it coming (which is incredible given how A was smacking around Sasuke), but like Sasuke vs Lee, he lacks the actual physical speed to move out of the way in time.


----------



## Arles Celes (Jun 8, 2011)

JuubiSage said:


> You should read Minato (without prep) vs. Madara (you know, the final villain guy) :]



Wasn't Madara back then just a "shadow of his old self"?

Even Konan was able to give him some trouble.


----------



## Penance (Jun 8, 2011)

Lelouch71 said:


> No Tobirama is Batman, Hashirama is Superman, and Minato is Goku.



I agree so hard...


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jun 8, 2011)

Cold said:


> So that should end it right.
> 
> Without hirashin, Raikage in his shroud is clearly faster.
> 
> But WITH HIRASHIN, which is a part of Minato's overall speed, Minato is clearly faster.  So no more of that Minato is faster than Raikage without hirashin nonsense.



This, nothing in this chapter is surprising.

As the question never was was Minato faster than Raikage with Harashin, but was Minato faster than Raikage without Harashin.

And what is this reaction argument nonsense.

Harashin's activation is simply really fast, much like Susano, much like Amaterasu.

SEEN
SEEN

And the shroud comparison

*Spoiler*: __ 







SEEN

*Spoiler*: __ 







SEEN
*Spoiler*: __ 







SEEN

Clearly the shroud is much more potent vs. Sasuke. It is only logical that he has improved his technique in 16+ years. Also did anyone notice that Raikage really has been hitting the gym over the years. Lmao at the guy who stated; Raikage has gotten weaker in old age and you know who you are.

Nothing really new from this chapter, other than the fact that it is confirmed Minato is faster with HARASHIN.


----------



## azn7136 (Jun 8, 2011)

*Minato > Raikage*

With or without prep he still beats the Raikage. Minato was able to hurt Madara, who Raikage couldn't even touch. The only thing Raikage has is pure speed.

Also, wouldn't Minato naturally prep before a battle with someone he had never fought before? Going in without prep against an enemy you don't know very well isn't a smart move.

On the other hand, Raikage was pretty stupid and charged Minato right away, without knowing his capabilities.


----------



## Big Bοss (Jun 8, 2011)

I think anyone would have a bit of a problem with 6 billion bombs.


----------



## G-Man (Jun 8, 2011)

Prep?  With pretty much no warning whatsoever, he rescued his child from a near century-old madman with even more hax teleportation powers than his own, took the child to safety, came back and rescued his wife (okay he was a little late there), freed the Kyuubi from control of said madman, defeated said madman, and then, after a tearful farewell, he modded a suicide jutsu he never actually used before so that it functioned slightly different from how it was supposed to work and threw in all these neat little bonus features (like half of his target's soul being sealed in his kid, a piece of his soul being seald in too and his wife's soul as well).

All of that with no prep.  That is insane!  Naruto can become a hundred times stronger than Minato, I don't care, he will never equal his dad or truly surpass that man's genius.  His legend may surpass his father's but he'll never truly equal his father's talent.  Jiraiya was right.  Minato truly is a genius like no other.  As far as I am concerned, Naruto is the Superman (more like Shazam/Captain Marvel given his childlike naivety) to Minato's Grant Morrison-style Batman!


----------



## Shidoshi (Jun 8, 2011)

Fear said:


> The Raikage would have been sliced in two, had it not been for his little Brother.
> 
> And nobody give me that terrible excuse ''It wouldn't have done nothing to him.'' Yeah, right. Because Kishimoto explicitly showed B _saving_ his brother.


Explicit would be someone saying "he saved him" afterwards, like Tsunade said about Bee saving Naruto -- anything otherwise is implicit.

*Edit:  To *clarify*, I'm not saying Bee *didn't* save Raikage; I'm just correcting your definition of the term "explicit".


----------



## Danchou (Jun 8, 2011)

Since when is teleportation a displayal of speed?

Speed is moving across a distance in a certain timeframe. Teleportation is moving across a distance in a certain timeframe without actually physically covering the distance.

Raikage in his Raiton armor physically moves faster than any version of Minato.


----------



## Tengu (Jun 8, 2011)

I doubt the kunai would have damaged A.


----------



## bearzerger (Jun 8, 2011)

I wonder how many dozen threads will end up getting merged in this one. XD


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jun 8, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> The only people who disputed that Minato > Raikage were the Uchiha fans who dont want Minato to get the same hype Itachi recieves.



Minato > Raikage in speed, as proven. Their isn't much exchange between the two to deduce Minato was stronger. That is like trying to deduce Raikage was stronger than RM Naruto last chapter. 

Raikage sense then has obviously gotten stronger, and has refined his shroud more, in terms of durability.

You must be a Naruto/Minato fan with a Uchiha name.


----------



## Namikaze-Minato (Jun 8, 2011)

*It's official. Minato>>>A*

Link removed

he could have easily used a rasengan, but he just kneed him. All you who said "his shroud would protect him from it". didn't even protect him from a knee. 

Minato would win easily.  And i think now we know Hirashin is considered his speed.


----------



## Jizznificent (Jun 8, 2011)

like some have already said, this is how it happened:

1. minato has a kunai in his hand and several kunais setup around the battlefield.

2. A attacks minato.

3. minato manages to escape life threatening injuries from A by teleporting to one of the kunai - on a tree - that he had setup around the battlefield beforehand, whilst leaving the kunai that he was holding in his hand, in mid air, next to A.

4. minato teleports back to the kunai that he left in mid air next to A.

5. minato tries to attack A.

6. B manages to save A from minato's attack with his bijuu tentacle.


simplez! 

EDIT: lol the thread has been merged? :amazed


----------



## Federer (Jun 8, 2011)

Like Madara said: "Whoa.....that's fast"

Minato is simply the fastest with his teleportation, I wasn't suprised at all.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 8, 2011)

Danchou said:


> Since when is teleportation a displayal of speed?
> 
> Speed is moving across a distance in a certain timeframe. Teleportation is moving across a distance in a certain timeframe without actually physically covering the distance.
> 
> Raikage in his Raiton armor physically moves faster than any version of Minato.



Pretty much this.


----------



## Tengu (Jun 8, 2011)

So now, kunai>chidori?


----------



## Kurushimi (Jun 8, 2011)

Hmmm, it seems like in base(not buffed by anything) speed they are pretty equal. So Hirashinato > V2 Raikage > V1 Raikage > Minato = Raikage base confirmed... no more bitching from some fans that he is faster than v2 Raikage without Hirashin.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Jun 8, 2011)

KUKU_nr8 said:


> So now, kunai>chidori?



Wind>lighting.If Minato infused his kunai with wind element.. yeah


----------



## AoshiKun (Jun 8, 2011)

Fear said:


> The Raikage would have been sliced in two, had it not been for his little Brother.
> 
> And nobody give me that terrible excuse ''It wouldn't have done nothing to him.'' Yeah, right. Because Kishimoto explicitly showed B _saving_ his brother.


Most likely was just an excuse to show Hachibi. Unless that Kunai has some super uper duper special power it would do shit.



畜生道 said:


> Wind>lighting.If Minato infused his kunai with wind element.. yeah


But he didn't.


----------



## BroKage (Jun 8, 2011)

I don't see why people thought A wasn't talking about Hiraishin when he mentioned Minato's speed.

Minato doesn't use any advanced forms to increase his bodily capabilities so it makes no sense for him to naturally be faster than Raiton Shroud A.

Anyway, teleportation is always going to be faster than running. Minato > A on that front.


----------



## Dariusd (Jun 8, 2011)

Danchou said:


> Since when is teleportation a displayal of speed?
> 
> Speed is moving across a distance in a certain timeframe. Teleportation is moving across a distance in a certain timeframe without actually physically covering the distance.
> 
> Raikage in his Raiton armor physically moves faster than any version of Minato.



Seems like A was under the assumption that Minato was using shunshin instead of FTG. It just seems like if you can teleport around crazily fast why on earth would you rely on shunshin? Eventhough Minato's shunshin is no joke either, hiraishin is obviously his bread n butter, especially when it involves dodging things at point blank range.


----------



## AoshiKun (Jun 8, 2011)

Arcystus said:


> Anyway, teleportation is always going to be faster than running. Minato > A on that front.


And that makes Raikage wrong about being the fastest shinobi alive because this title belongs to Madara. Madara is almost as fast as Minato due to S/T technique.


----------



## Bart (Jun 8, 2011)

It's still debatable what would have occured if _Raiton Shroud_ was coupled with _Shunshin_, as we saw when Yondaime Raikage dodged Amaterasu at point blank.

There's also the issue of who was older :WOW


----------



## Shidoshi (Jun 8, 2011)

Arcystus said:


> I don't see why people thought A wasn't talking about Hiraishin when he mentioned Minato's speed.
> 
> Minato doesn't use any advanced forms to increase his bodily capabilities so it makes no sense for him to naturally be faster than Raiton Shroud A.
> 
> Anyway, teleportation is always going to be faster than running. Minato > A on that front.


Yes.

And that's what a lot of people were trying to explain to those like Senjuclan who thought that if A was including Hiraishin, he would have included Madara as those faster than he is, because he also uses spacetime ninjutsu, but that because he didn't, he wasn't including Hiraishin.


----------



## Deadway (Jun 8, 2011)

How about you all wait till next chapter when they face off Minato on that battlefield with his hokage outfit.


----------



## Tengu (Jun 8, 2011)

AoshiKun said:


> And that makes Raikage wrong about being the fastest shinobi alive because this title belongs to Madara. Madara is almost as fast as Minato due to S/T technique.



Madara can't teleport as fast as Minato.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 8, 2011)

Outclassed

Minato's kunai wouldn't even have damaged him due to the defensive properties of the shroud.


----------



## CandleGuy (Jun 8, 2011)

AoshiKun said:


> Most likely was just an excuse to show Hachibi



Why is that you find it simpler to reason that this is _an excuse to show Hachibi_ which makes no sense in terms of narrative (its wholly unnecessary because the reader is well familiar with Hachibi by now) instead of the author portraying someone protecting his older brother from harm.


----------



## Federer (Jun 8, 2011)

Bart said:


> It's still debatable what would have occured if _Raiton Shroud_ was coupled with _Shunshin_, as we saw when Yondaime Raikage dodged Amaterasu at point blank.
> 
> There's also the issue of who was older :WOW



Well, maybe he did use shunshin when he attacked Minato. 

Remember, the Raikage is here younger than when he faced Sasuke, so he could have been slower in the flashback. 

But to be honest, even the current Raikage shouldn't be able to challenge Minato, the Raikage was litteraly in the same position when Minato teleported away and then he appeared on his back, ready to slash him. 

To me, teleportation > body movement.


----------



## Face (Jun 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> *Minato > Raikage in speed, as proven. Their isn't much exchange between the two to deduce Minato was stronger. That is like trying to deduce Raikage was stronger than RM Naruto last chapter.*
> 
> Raikage sense then has obviously gotten stronger, and has refined his shroud more, in terms of durability.You must be a Naruto/Minato fan with a Uchiha name.



The difference is that Raikage was actually trying to harm Minato. Naruto never had that intention against A. He never even tried to punch him.


----------



## manga genius (Jun 8, 2011)

Fact is Raikage almost got 2 panelled, Bee had to save his ass 

Then he had to start bragging about Bee's talent


----------



## dungsi27 (Jun 8, 2011)

Wheat Buckley said:


> Minato reacted to Raikage's punch when it was about a centimeter from his face.
> 
> Madara did the same.
> 
> ...



Actually Itachi didnt need to,as Sasuke had kindly explained everything in details for him before he used the tech.


----------



## Bart (Jun 8, 2011)

Federer said:


> Well, maybe he did use shunshin when he attacked Minato.
> 
> Remember, the Raikage is here younger than when he faced Sasuke, so he could have been slower in the flashback.
> 
> ...



But then again there's the possibility that he didn't use Shunshin 

Your other comments are pretty interesting though :WOW


----------



## Corax (Jun 8, 2011)

> Fact is Raikage almost got 2 panelled


How he was 2 panelled?Minato s kunai failed to pierce A's raiton armor. This is why Minato s fandom is so annoying.


----------



## dungsi27 (Jun 8, 2011)

Bart said:


> It's still debatable what would have occured if _Raiton Shroud_ was coupled with _Shunshin_, as we saw when Yondaime Raikage dodged Amaterasu at point blank.
> 
> There's also the issue of who was older :WOW



Raikage said it was his full speed.That was his limit he couldnt get any faster than that.I think he used a shunsin too.


----------



## Corax (Jun 8, 2011)

No to use shunshin he need to pump additional chakra in his shroud. C explained this quite clear.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jun 8, 2011)

Face said:


> The difference is that Raikage was actually trying to harm Minato. Naruto never had that intention against A. He never even tried to punch him.



But that is not my point; 

Nothing happen this chapter to deduce anyone being superior, much like the last.

Regardless of Naruto's intent, he was still hit but the blow was useless and only manage to force him back, much like Minato this chapter.

The blow was ineffective just like this chapter, and doesn't dictate anything.


----------



## dungsi27 (Jun 8, 2011)

Corax said:


> No to use shunshin he need to pump additional chakra in his shroud. C explained this quite clear.



He needed to pump additional chakra IF HE HADNT PUMPED ENOUGH CHAKRA BEFORE.


----------



## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 8, 2011)

Corax said:


> How he was 2 panelled?Minato s kunai failed to pierce A's raiton armor. This is why Minato s fandom is so annoying.



He wrote *"almost two paneled."* Furthermore, Minato's kunai never made contact with the shroud thanks to Bee's interference. Judging by Bee's interference, it's implied that Minato's attack would've pierced A's shroud. Why else would Bee interfere?


----------



## dungsi27 (Jun 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> But that is not my point;
> 
> Nothing happen this chapter to deduce anyone being superior, much like the last.
> 
> ...



The differnce is Bees inteference.

Apparently Bee thought that Minato could have hurted A had he not interfered.That was why he interfered,and lost a tentacle in the process.


----------



## manga genius (Jun 8, 2011)

Corax said:


> How he was 2 panelled?*Minato s kunai failed to pierce A's raiton armor*. This is why Minato s fandom is so annoying.






Really? 
*Spoiler*: __ 








Kunai didn't make contact because Bee had to save his ass


----------



## mayumi (Jun 8, 2011)

Suu said:


> That he did.
> 
> last chapter.
> 
> ...



this is basically like against madara but this time it wasn't that easy to catch on unlike the battle against madara. A had no idea what was going on. atleast madara caught on that minato teleported to the kunai and rasenganed him.

this makes minato's fighting style really appealing. its all in the matter of tricking your opponent.


----------



## nightmaremage99 (Jun 8, 2011)

Kumo had no idea about hiraishin. They thought Minato's speed came of his ungodly fast shunshin, which is not the case.

So I don't know why this debate is still going on.

A always thought that Minato was simply faster than him because of shunshin. In reality, he's faster cause of hiraishin.


----------



## jimbob631 (Jun 8, 2011)

The kunai also cut through Bee's tentacle and I doubt Bee would have defended A if he didn't think the kunai was going to do anything to A.  This chapter proved Minato is capable of hurting shinobi with good defenses even without rasengan.


----------



## nightmaremage99 (Jun 8, 2011)

Perhaps Itachi began activating susanoo even before Sasuke finished describing kirin, and all the rest simply comes out of artistic misinterpretation?


----------



## RWB (Jun 8, 2011)

Minato can teleport around and has impressive reaction speed(fast enough to avoid A), that's what this chapter proved.

B is fast enough to shove a tentacle inbetween A and Minato faster than Minato can swing down a kunai. Therefore he is faster than Minato in sheer movement/attack speed.

Minato has the fastest reflexes, but B has superior movement speed. The chapter proves it.

A was taken off guard by the teleportation. They are all in pretty much the same speed class, Minato has teleportion and the best reaction speed, but not as impressive attack speed as the Kumo brothers, or at the very least B(who has clearly been implied to be slower than A).

So, can everybody stop wanking now?


----------



## NarutoIzDaMan (Jun 8, 2011)

This chapter confirmed what most already speculated - Hiraishin gives Minato the edge in speed over A in his full powered raiton armor. Otherwise, they are both probably roughly equal in "base" speed.


----------



## Corax (Jun 8, 2011)

> Kunai didn't make contact because Bee had to save his ass


His kunai made a contact here last chapter.. And as we have seen even Sasuke's sword was useless vs A's armor. Kunai is...well. Just to show how biased his fans are. Minato s steel kunai in their eyes is>>>Sasuke s ninjutsu infused sword.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jun 8, 2011)

dungsi27 said:


> The differnce is Bees inteference.


Bee's interference meant nothing.

Minato failed to breach the shroud, which means he cannot harm the Raikage. 



> Apparently Bee thought that Minato could have hurted A had he not interfered.That was why he interfered,and lost a tentacle in the process.



He lost a tentacle really?

SEEN

Seems intake to me.

Wow talk about Minato fan looking for scrap.
Bee's interference wasn't necessary, as Raikage's shroud prevents damage from impact, much like Sasuke's Susano ribs.

Bee is simply looking out for his comrade regardless, much like this.
SEEN

Or this

SEEN


----------



## dungsi27 (Jun 8, 2011)

Wheat Buckley said:


> Yes, he explained that Kirin was real lightning and that he was going to kill Itachi.
> 
> Zetsu said that lightning moves at 1/1000th of a second.
> 
> ...



Reacting to something you already which was coming and something you dont are very much different.

First you have to realize the situation.

Then you need to come up with a plan of actions.

Then you execute you plan.

Itachi didnt have to go through the first 2 steps,thanks to Sasuke.


----------



## manga genius (Jun 8, 2011)

Corax said:


> His kunai made a contact here last chapter.. And as we have seen even Sasuke's sword was useless vs A's armor. Kunai is...well. Just to show how biased his fans are. Minato s steel kunai in their eyes is>>>Sasuke s ninjutsu infused sword.




 

I think you should get your eyes checked.

Raikage almost got 2 panelled, bee saved his ass get over it.


----------



## Hasan (Jun 8, 2011)

Danchou said:


> Since when is teleportation a displayal of speed?
> 
> Speed is moving across a distance in a certain timeframe. Teleportation is moving across a distance in a certain timeframe without actually physically covering the distance.
> 
> Raikage in his Raiton armor physically moves faster than any version of Minato.



True. But if you read the Databook page for Hiraishin, in a nutshell it says

Hiraishin is the reason for Minato's insane 'speed'.

We all know teleportation isn't speed at all but the author has displayed Hiraishin as Minato's speed feat.

On the V2 term, it's fan-made, I agree but it's certainly better than saying

Raikage's Amplified Raiton Armor when more chakra is poured into it. 

It's been 15-20 years and you don't think Raikage sit idle all these years. Just look at Kakashi, he improved a lot in 2.5 years. 15-20 years is a lot of time to train for Raikage.

No panels shown, that's fine but that's ridiculous to think that Raikage didn't do anything all these years. Raikage definitely improved his speed over time-skip.

Age slows down one's performance (e.g Hiruzen) but he's around the same age as Jiraiya and Jiraiya performed great against Pain. 'A' looks much fitter than Jiraiya.


----------



## Corax (Jun 8, 2011)

> I think you should get your eyes checked.


Lol look at his pose (he is thrusting his kunai) and sound effect near it. Thx bye.


----------



## manga genius (Jun 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Bee's interference meant nothing.
> 
> Minato failed to breach the shroud, which means he cannot harm the Raikage.




I still await the feats where Raikage easily lands hits on Minato 

Minato seems to be making you look foolish by the chapter


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jun 8, 2011)

manga genius said:


> I still await the feats where Raikage easily lands hits on Minato


I'm still waiting for the feat that shows, without Harashin Minato is faster. I am still waiting for the feat that shows, how Minato could harm the Raikage.




> Minato seems to be making you look foolish by the chapter


 actually this chapter confirms  most of what I was saying to a T.

Sure I was wrong about a few things, but I was also very on point on others. It's funny how you only highlight the things I was wrong about, and none of the things I was on point about.


----------



## Agony (Jun 8, 2011)

dungsi27 said:


> Lol apparently Minato would have ended it in two moves(and with his first attack) had Bee not interfered.
> 
> .



i say no.raiton armor could have protected raikage.a full blast chidori can only make a small cut to the raikage.what can a kunai do?


----------



## manga genius (Jun 8, 2011)

Corax said:


> Lol look at his pose (he is thrusting his kunai) and sound effect near it. Thx bye.






Ok then.


----------



## Namikaze-Minato (Jun 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> I'm still waiting for the feat that shows, without Harashin Minato is faster. I am still waiting for the feat that shows, how Minato could harm the Raikage.





i'm pretty sure this was just a knee. imagine a rasengan


----------



## navy (Jun 8, 2011)

Raikage acknowledged he was saved.


----------



## machiavelli2009 (Jun 8, 2011)

Well kishi is jst awesome he put an end to a pointless argument in one chapter.
Minato is faster than raikage thanks to hirashin, that everyone thought was shunshin. 
THis is why raikage admits to being slower than minato but faster than madara.


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## BAD BD (Jun 8, 2011)

Raikage is faster than Yondy in terms of movement speed. The raiton armor would have protected raikage if the kunai wasn't wind infused. Deal with it.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jun 8, 2011)

Minato Namikaze05 said:


> i'm pretty sure this was just a knee. imagine a rasengan



And did Minato successfully harm the Raikage there????????????

The Kunai failed to get through the shroud, thus failed to harm the Raikage. 

A full powered chidori failed to do the job, what makes you think a rasengan is going to do get it done(which has 0 penetration power).

Stop looking for silver lining Minato fan.


----------



## Gin Ichimaru (Jun 8, 2011)

Raikage > Minato in a race without Hiraishin

Minato reflexes are enough to deal with Raikage full-speed.

A can't touch Minato at full speed, however Minato may also not be able to harm A through the shroud (debateable)


----------



## manga genius (Jun 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> I'm still waiting for the feat that shows, without Harashin Minato is faster.




I'm still waiting for the feat that shows without Raiton Armor Raikage can still... well.. it doesn't matter he still can't touch Minato 




IpHr0z3nI said:


> I am still waiting for the feat that shows, how Minato could harm the Raikage.




Your gonna have to keep waiting since Bee had to save his ass 




IpHr0z3nI said:


> actually this chapter confirms  most of what I was saying to a T.




This and the last chapter confirmed what I was saying to a T, Minato>>> Raikage


----------



## Sniffers (Jun 8, 2011)

*Battle of the quick*
A tells that he and Minato fought quite a few times. Do you guys really think that he meant being one-shot everytime? Please...

The kunai isn't going to penetrate Raikage's shroud without some wind element attached, for which we have no reason to assume Minato has yet. Even then, it wouldn't be one-shot like people like to believe. All Minato managed this chapter was to _try_ attack A from behind after he outblitzed him.

*The Killer B intervention: classic story-telling speed WTF!*
It's also kind of funny how Killer B's tentacle could even reach A to smack him away faster than Minato managed to attack A or A managed to dodge. Not only was Killer B further away, but he also needed to _react_ to Minato's attack. Classic dramatic entry where any speed measure is raped.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jun 8, 2011)

Seems that Minato's reflexes are superior than Raikage's since he managed to escape Raikage's fist. 

Even after, before Raikage could even react Minato nearly sliced him into two. 

Since when is a white man faster than a black man


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## navy (Jun 8, 2011)

*Hiraishin=Lightning shroud*

They are both ninja tools used to help ninja.
Stop making excuses and taking away Hiraishin to make A seem faster.
You must also take away the shroud or leave both in place.

And i thought Minato fanboys were bad, that is all


----------



## BAD BD (Jun 8, 2011)

Sniffers said:


> blah blah blah



I'm pretty sure it was confirmed that Minato uses wind element and the slash on the tentacle seemed far too destructive for it to be a basic kunai attack, hence the speculation.


----------



## Skywalker (Jun 8, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Seems that Minato's reflexes are superior than Raikage's since he managed to escape Raikage's fist.
> 
> Even after, before Raikage could even react Minato nearly sliced him into two.
> 
> Since when is a white man faster than a black man


Only in Naruto. 

Minato could've just as easy of used a Rasengan, he's no dumbass, come on people.


----------



## BAD BD (Jun 8, 2011)

teleportation isn't speed, kiddo


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## navy (Jun 8, 2011)

BAD BD said:


> teleportation isn't speed, kiddo



According to kishi it is.


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## King of the Internet (Jun 8, 2011)

Ugh... here we go again...


----------



## machiavelli2009 (Jun 8, 2011)

Excellent post OP. 
they are both tools used to boost a persons speed in combat. 
The simple fact here is minato is faster than raikage. i dont see why people have to be neeky saying with this or without that A is faster or slower. 
*No one should care. kishi told us, minato is faster please can we all put a rest to these ANNYOING COMPARISONS*


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 8, 2011)

One is natural (chakra affinity), whereas the other uses ninjutsu that is external to the body of the user (seals).


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## †obitobi (Jun 8, 2011)

machiavelli2009 said:


> Well kishi is jst awesome he put an end to a pointless argument in one chapter.
> Minato is faster than raikage thanks to hirashin, that everyone thought was shunshin.
> THis is why raikage admits to being slower than minato but faster than madara.



He may have been referring to ftg, but that's all that can be concluded. There's still no means to say that A is faster than Minato since there wasn't any indication of that.​


----------



## Judecious (Jun 8, 2011)

BAD BD said:


> teleportation isn't speed, kiddo



Kishi disagrees with you.


----------



## machiavelli2009 (Jun 8, 2011)

we know icegaze!!! best panel thread. now please!!! thank u. 
how on earth did minato kunai get to A though. 
i remember making a thread saying how projectiles were faster than any ninja. 
I guess i was rite


----------



## navy (Jun 8, 2011)

Icegaze said:


> One is natural (chakra affinity), whereas the other uses ninjutsu that is external to the body of the user (seals).



Making excuses?

If akumaru and shino's bugs are allowed so are special kunai.


----------



## Samochan (Jun 8, 2011)

Why do people assume that since Raikage's that time full speed wasn't enough to blitz minato, that his current speed as of now could? What makes people think Minato couldn't become more speedier in such timespan? >_> Oh wait, he's dead. But not by Raikage and assuming any hit from raikage is deadly or crippling, we can assume he never did in fact land a hit on Minato, therefore Minato has always been a tad bit faster than him. If raikage became faster, it's reasonable to assume Minato did as well.

Which is quite a feat in itself because the only people thus far to keep up with Raikage in chakra shroud have been Sasuke with sharingan activated, KB and Kyuubi Mode naruto. Each of these person either have massively reaction enhancing dojutsu or massive chakra resources to back up their speed and reaction time, while minato is basically your average guy with no bloodline or bijuu. Sealing capabilities do not magically enhance one's speed or reaction time.

Or do they? o.o

Oh and if Minato really did imbue his kunai with wind chakra... I imagine the attack power of the wind nature chakra has enough cutting power to slice through basically anything. Lightning chakra cannot hope to match the cutting power of wind nature.


----------



## Namikaze-Minato (Jun 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> And did Minato successfully harm the Raikage there????????????
> 
> The Kunai failed to get through the shroud, thus failed to harm the Raikage.
> 
> ...



lmao. wow. do you look at the panels. he wasn't trying to pierce the shroud. he threw it and caught it. 
last chapter.
last chapter.

*and chidori failed because it was lighting/lightning*. who says the rasengan has to penetrate him. i guarantee it does damage. 

if a knee to the back knocked him on his ass...a rasengan def would too. 
i'm not looking for silver lining, i'm pointing out facts lol.


----------



## machiavelli2009 (Jun 8, 2011)

Tobitobi said:


> He may have been referring to ftg, but that's all that can be concluded. There's still no means to say that A is faster than Minato since there wasn't any indication of that.​



I dont care what he was refering 2. the simple fact is whether or not minato is slower without hirashin, minato has hirashin. therefore minato will always be faster than raikage. And raikage would have a hard time touching him.


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## ~Link~ (Jun 8, 2011)

Agreed.

It is only natural to let them use their abilities. Lightning Shroud is a jutsu available to him because of his affinity and Hiraishin is a jutsu that Minato developed.

Both are tools to make them better ninjas.

------

Now, Keep on raging fanboys and Minato haters/Uchihatards.


----------



## BAD BD (Jun 8, 2011)

navy said:


> According to kishi it is.



To have speed one has to move through space, ie when moving from point A to B one passes through all the points between point A and B.

Teleportation forgoes all of the points between A and B, ie one moves from point A to point B without passing between any of the points in between.


----------



## JH24 (Jun 8, 2011)

Yeah, with Hiraishin Minato is really superior in speed. I was already amazed with Minato's abilities but seeing it now in comparison with Raikage's shroud it was really impressive. His reaction time was top notch too.


However, I still doubt Minato could have gotten away if he didn't have Hiraishin. His reflexes were fast but I don't think that would have been enough.


But yeah, Minato is very impressive. A very strong shinobi, well rounded and developed in skills/abilities and fully deserving of the hype he gets IMHO.


----------



## Namikaze-Minato (Jun 8, 2011)

he gets to a point quicker than the rest.....speed.


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## manga genius (Jun 8, 2011)

Funny how everyone wants to take Hirashin away from Minato yet Raikage also uses ninjutsu to boast his speed 

I can easily say Minato>>> Raikage in speed without both Hirashin and Raiton Armor, since he has shown absolutely no speed feats without it.


----------



## †obitobi (Jun 8, 2011)

machiavelli2009 said:


> I dont care what he was refering 2. the simple fact is whether or not minato is slower without hirashin, minato has hirashin. therefore minato will always be faster than raikage. And raikage would have a hard time touching him.



I thought that you were saying that ftg doesn't count as speed, and that he's slower without it, which is baseless.

I agree that instant > fast.​


----------



## Namikaze-Minato (Jun 8, 2011)

JH24 said:


> Yeah, with Hiraishin Minato is really superior in speed. I was already amazed with Minato's abilities but seeing it now in comparison with Raikage's shroud it was really impressive. His reaction time was top notch too.
> 
> 
> However, I still doubt Minato could have gotten away if he didn't have Hiraishin. His reflexes were fast but I don't think that would have been enough.



Minato uses hirashin!! A uses raiton armor! both ninja tools. If minato didn't have hirashin, he would have gotten away from A without a shroud.


----------



## navy (Jun 8, 2011)

BAD BD said:


> To have speed one has to move through space, ie when moving from point A to B one passes through all the points between point A and B.
> 
> Teleportation forgoes all of the points between A and B, ie one moves from point A to point B without passing between any of the points in between.



You think this matters to kishi?


----------



## BAD BD (Jun 8, 2011)

navy said:


> You think this matters to kishi?



I don't think very much of Kishi, so no.


----------



## machiavelli2009 (Jun 8, 2011)

thank u poster above. 
speed= distance over time. how a person gets there isnt the point. 
minato is the fastest. can these threads stop now. 
Because he is the fastest doesnt all of a sudden make him the strongest. 
please understand pain still mops the floor with him


----------



## JH24 (Jun 8, 2011)

Minato Namikaze05 said:


> Minato uses hirashin!! A uses raiton armor! both ninja tools. If minato didn't have hirashin, he would have gotten away from A without a shroud.




You're right, of course. They are both ninja tools and both abilities give Minato and Raikage an edge over other shinobi. I wasn't contesting that.


And I admit it doesn't matter if Minato is slower or faster than A without Hiraishin, because they would both use their abilities as their main strategy anyway. Minato would be less powerful (but still very impressive) without Hiraishin and the same would go for A without his Lightning Shroud.


----------



## Sniffers (Jun 8, 2011)

BAD BD said:


> I'm pretty sure it was *confirmed* that Minato uses wind element and the slash on the tentacle seemed far too destructive for it to be a basic kunai attack, hence the *speculation*.



Riiiight.

Not familiar with the classic larger-cut-than-blade-reallistically-allows-but-in-stories-it-happens-anyway phenomenon, I guess. It is still possible though, but speculation still.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 8, 2011)

What is their to debate Raikage said that Minato is faster than him and we saw that in practice this chapter.


----------



## GreenTeaMmm (Jun 8, 2011)

I see alot of assuming going on in this thread. Very sad.


----------



## GreenTeaMmm (Jun 8, 2011)

BAD BD said:


> teleportation isn't speed, kiddo



I don't understand, if it is not speed then what is it?


----------



## Namikaze-Minato (Jun 8, 2011)

GreenTeaMmm said:


> I don't understand, if it is not speed then what is it?



it is speed. they both use some sort of 'ninja tool.' Minatos gets him there faster. By comparing A w/ shroud to Minato w/o Hirashin shows incompetence bc A's speed tool is his shroud. 

Hirashin gets you there quicker, era go visa vee....his speed is faster


----------



## GreenTeaMmm (Jun 8, 2011)

Minato Namikaze05 said:


> it is speed. they both use some sort of 'ninja tool.' Minatos gets him there faster. By comparing A w/ shroud to Minato w/o Hirashin shows incompetence bc A's speed tool is his shroud.
> 
> Hirashin gets you there quicker, era go visa vee....his speed is faster



I was more being sarcastic than inquisitive. Speed is ditance traveled over time. Hiraishin's speed just happens to be instant. So I guess that makes it not speed? Accord to to poster.


----------



## Namikaze-Minato (Jun 8, 2011)

GreenTeaMmm said:


> I was more being sarcastic than inquisitive. Speed is ditance traveled over time. Hiraishin's speed just happens to be instant. So I guess that makes it not speed? Accord to to poster.



my bad man. i was agreeing with you, just put it in a way that didn't make it look like that. but yeah, the post was agreeing with you 100%


----------



## rac585 (Jun 8, 2011)

machiavelli2009 said:


> we know icegaze!!! best panel thread. now please!!! thank u.
> how on earth did minato kunai get to A though.
> i remember making a thread saying how projectiles were faster than any ninja.
> I guess i was rite



I think it was just still falling, remember he threw a ton of those kunai all over the place.


----------



## GreenTeaMmm (Jun 8, 2011)

Rac said:


> I think it was just still falling, remember he threw a ton of those kunai all over the place.



I assumed he let go of it before he teleported since there wasn't any throwing shown, and it was missing from his hand.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jun 8, 2011)

Minato Namikaze05 said:


> lmao. wow. do you look at the panels. he wasn't trying to pierce the shroud. he threw it and caught it.
> last chapter.
> last chapter.



My point doesn't make the assumption he was trying too, I am simply assessing that if the shroud is not penetrated A cannot be harmed.

Much like the only to harm a Sasuke/Itachi while using Susano, is to breach through Susano.

If Minato cannot do that, then any he does will not harm A, as also seen in those panels, but selective reading seems to be your aim. 



> *and chidori failed because it was lighting/lightning*. who says the rasengan has to penetrate him. i guarantee it does damage.


Uh knew flash when has the rasengan ever penetrated anything? Yea look that up, and then get back at me. 



> if a knee to the back knocked him on his ass...a rasengan def would too.
> i'm not looking for silver lining, i'm pointing out facts lol.


Knocking him down is irrelevant, if it does not hurt him. It's like with Deva knocked Naruto on his ass, or Raikage knocking Sasuke on his ass while surrounded by Susano.

But keep grasping for straws, my point still stands.


----------



## Namikaze-Minato (Jun 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> My point doesn't make the assumption he was trying too, I am simply assessing that if the shroud is not penetrated A cannot be harmed.
> 
> Much like the only to harm a Sasuke/Itachi while using Susano, is to breach through Susano.
> 
> ...



where are you getting this "has to penetrate" bullshit from lol. ok, rasengan doesn't penetrate so it won't work on anyone. and selective reading?! another thing that you have no idea what you're talking about. you stated something, i pointed it out in my "selective reading." and you were wrong. he wasn't trying to pierce with his kunai. your'e just biased. no big deal


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## .access timeco. (Jun 8, 2011)

BAD BD said:


> teleportation isn't speed, kiddo



This.

Is not that Hirashin is not as valid as the lightning shroud, it just that it isn't speed. It's teleportation.

When it comes to running, throwing weapons, reacting, moving your members, using taijutsu, making seals, dancing lambada, etc etc etc it has no effect whatsoever because it isn't speed. It is something else, maybe just as great or even better than a speed boost, but something else.


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## rac585 (Jun 8, 2011)

GreenTeaMmm said:


> I assumed he let go of it before he teleported since there wasn't any throwing shown, and it was missing from his hand.



It could be the one he let go, since Raikage would have traveled a bit further (leaving the Kunai behind-ish) in between Minato's 2 teleports. Possibly Minato waited for him get in front of his kunai.


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Jun 8, 2011)

When A rushed Minato had a Kunai in his hand. When he teleported he didn't have it in his hand. Minato simply teleported back to the kunai he left behind. A ran right by it, only realizing at the last instant that he gave Minato the opportunity to take his back. Bee realized this and covered for him by knocking him out of the way hence why A apologized. He knew he had screwed up.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> My point doesn't make the assumption he was trying too, I am simply assessing that if the shroud is not penetrated A cannot be harmed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'll step up, remember the battle on the hospital rooftop? The Rasengan blasted the back out of the tower. While it only made a small hole in the front. That's penetrating power. It's the difference between being rushed with a sword (Chidori) versus a grenade (Rasengan). 

Chidori can match the base Rasengan in a clash because it is nature manipulation plus shape manipulation, but Rasengan on connection does more damage, or rather has a greater destructive effect. My hypothesis is that in general when they clash the chidori shields Sasuke from the Rasengan rather than matching it. Although it is equally possible that it can also be used to punch through the storm of the Rasengan. It's the difference between a through and through bullet and a bullet that bounces around inside of the body.

Regardless the point I'm making to make is that they are different types of damage. Chidori is a puncturing force while the Rasengan is an explosive grinding force. We cannot assume that A will be able to defend against both types of attack with the same efficacy.


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## Bakatsu (Jun 8, 2011)

Teleportation is still speed it's just that the speed is infinite


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jun 8, 2011)

Minato Namikaze05 said:


> where are you getting this "has to penetrate" bullshit from lol. ok, rasengan doesn't penetrate so it won't work on anyone. and selective reading?! another thing that you have no idea what you're talking about. you stated something, i pointed it out in my "selective reading." and you were wrong. he wasn't trying to pierce with his kunai. your'e just biased. no big deal



Has Raikage ever been harmed, without the shroud being breached?????????????? What no???????????????

Then we need not continue this argument.


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## posternojutsu (Jun 8, 2011)

.access timeco. said:


> This.
> 
> Is not that Hirashin is not as valid as the lightning shroud, it just that it isn't speed. It's teleportation.
> 
> When it comes to running, throwing weapons, reacting, moving your members, using taijutsu, making seals, dancing lambada, etc etc etc it has no effect whatsoever because it isn't speed. It is something else, maybe just as great or even better than a speed boost, but something else.



What you say may be the real definition of speed, but in combat none of that matters. 

If Minato and Raikage had a race where they were allowed their jutsu and Minato had a tag at the finish line who wins? If it was timed who would have the "fastest" time? I get where people are coming from so i am not going to say you are wrong for questioning Minato's actual body speed. At the end of the day though Minato's jutsu accomplishes the same end as having extreme speed would. In the context of a fight arguing if he is technically fast or not is just nitpicking.


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## Namikaze-Minato (Jun 8, 2011)

Amat?rasu?s Son said:


> When A rushed Minato had a Kunai in his hand. When he teleported he didn't have it in his hand. Minato simply teleported back to the kunai he left behind. A ran right by it, only realizing at the last instant that he gave Minato the opportunity to take his back. Bee realized this and covered for him by knocking him out of the way hence why A apologized. He knew he had screwed up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



thank you! i'd give reps if i could.


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## Specter Von Baren (Jun 8, 2011)

*sigh* The way I see it. If we're talking about which technique wins out over the other then it's Minato's. But if we're talking about which one of them can move faster then it's gotta be Raikage.


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## Jak N Blak (Jun 8, 2011)

This is worse than the days Itachi gets hype.


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## reggiefarnogg (Jun 8, 2011)

how can raikage move faster someone explain to me

raikage used his speed to try to blitz minato 

in the time raikage was about to punch minato minato was able to throw a kunai n the air, teleprot to a tree, teleport back to kunai, grab kunai, abotu tos tab raikage and raikage couldnt even react because he was still trying to punch minato

in the time it take raikage to do ONE move minato does 5


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## Namikaze-Minato (Jun 8, 2011)

the kunai was already in the tree.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 8, 2011)

The amazing part is what he did after he dodged Raikage's punch.


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## reggiefarnogg (Jun 8, 2011)

*how many moves did minato do in the time it took raikage to do one*

kunai was down at his side but he have to throw it in the air a bit since it at raikage head level WHEN RAIKAGE FIST ALREADY AT HIS FACE (amazing speed feat) - 1

teleport to tree kunai - 2

teleport back to the kunai he threw in the air - 3

grab the kunai - 4

get in position to stab raikage with kunai - 5

thats 5 moves in the time it took raikage to try to punch him & he was so much faster that raikage couldnt even react to it and would have gotten stabbed if he didnt get saved


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## Jak N Blak (Jun 8, 2011)

.access timeco. said:


> This.
> 
> Is not that Hirashin is not as valid as the lightning shroud, it just that it isn't speed. It's teleportation.
> 
> When it comes to running, throwing weapons, reacting, moving your members, using taijutsu, making seals, dancing lambada, etc etc etc it has no effect whatsoever because it isn't speed. It is something else, maybe just as great or even better than a speed boost, but something else.



^
What this dude said.


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## Frank_Nasty (Jun 8, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> The amazing part is what he did after he dodged Raikage's punch.



Lol This Post Is Going To Make Alot Of People Mad


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jun 8, 2011)

Amat?rasu?s Son said:


> When A rushed Minato had a Kunai in his hand. When he teleported he didn't have it in his hand. Minato simply teleported back to the kunai he left behind. A ran right by it, only realizing at the last instant that he gave Minato the opportunity to take his back. Bee realized this and covered for him by knocking him out of the way hence why A apologized. He knew he had screwed up.


Wow major assumption, with no backing here.

And Minato left the field because he knew he was screwed....................

See how silly that sounds. 



> I'll step up, remember the battle on the hospital rooftop? The Rasengan blasted the back out of the tower. While it only made a small hole in the front. That's penetrating power. It's the difference between being rushed with a sword (Chidori) versus a grenade (Rasengan).



Which essentially points out how the function of both jutsu works. Chidori is better suited to tanglee against fortified defenses, as it is actually capable of breaching through defenses in order land against the target.

Rasengan is more suited for direct hits, as it is much more destructive than chidori.


The Rasengan has never breach through any defense..... Find me a chapter where it has? Against Madara, against pain what was affected was the insides, which cannot be visibly seen. But the problem is that in all situations it manage to make direct contact with the victims body.

Now lets examine chidori, how which actually punctures the skin, it has breached through many objects, Gara's sand shield, Kakuzu's body, Naruto's body, Raikage's shroud etc. etc.

The chidori's manage to breach through the shroud, on only because the power behind the attack, but the way in which it function.

The rasengan harbors the same power, but doesn't damage the way chidori does. It would not breach through the shroud, it would be essentially like just hitting a really hard object with a sludge hammer. 





> Chidori can match the base Rasengan in a clash because it is nature manipulation plus shape manipulation, but Rasengan on connection does more damage, or rather has a greater destructive effect. My hypothesis is that in general when they clash the chidori shields Sasuke from the Rasengan rather than matching it. Although it is equally possible that it can also be used to punch through the storm of the Rasengan. It's the difference between a through and through bullet and a bullet that bounces around inside of the body.


No, chidori could match the base rasengan because they pact the same power, just different ways they damage.

 Chidori is more the precise hallow point, while rasengan in the more destructive slug.

Rasengan does more damage, but it can only do more damage if it actually connects to the target. It is not as useful as the chidori in breaching shields, thus is why it never utilized in such a situation.


The Rasengan does not damage on the surface, it damage is from within. The problem is it would need to connect to the Raikage's body, but the Raikage in battle is constantly surrounded by a shroud.





> Regardless the point I'm making to make is that they are different types of damage. Chidori is a puncturing force while the Rasengan is an explosive grinding force. We cannot assume that A will be able to defend against both types of attack with the same efficacy.


Yes we could, as Chidori which has more puncturing power as you admitted, failed to breach the shroud, with enough significant to damage the Raikage. 

If the chidori is superior to the Rasengan in penetrating, but failed to actually penetrate the shroud enough to significantly harm the Raikage, what hope does the rasengan have????


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## posternojutsu (Jun 8, 2011)

Specter Von Baren said:


> *sigh* The way I see it. If we're talking about which technique wins out over the other then it's Minato's. But if we're talking about which one of them can move faster then it's gotta be Raikage.



Point is in combat it doesn't matter how they accomplish the feat. Minato has greater ability to re-position himself on the battlefield. The easiest way for Raikage to explain what happened is by saying Minato is fast. What Minato is technically doing doesn't really matter...it accomplishes the same ends as actually moving fast.


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## Namikaze-Minato (Jun 8, 2011)

wow lol. just cuz rasengan hasn't been shown to "penetrate" doesn't mean it can't. it not only penetrates. it would destroy said object crumbling the whole thing. and you continue to talk about penetration and his shroud?!? where does it say, "the only damage that can be done to this shroud is thru penetration only." i mean, seriously?! have a better argument than that. the shroud isn't one of invincibility, rasengan would most likely severly damage him. and once again, chidori didn't work because the nature chakra cancelled each other out.



> Rasengan does more damage, but it can only do more damage if it actually connects to the target. It is not as useful as the chidori in breaching shields, thus is why it never utilized in such a situation.




never utilized in a situation, yeah, that's exactly it. thats why they don't use rasengan on alll the different enemies with shrouds and shields they've encounted. more speculation i see.


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## Sphere (Jun 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Has Raikage ever been harmed, without the shroud being breached?????????????? What no???????????????


A simple kick from Minato was all that it took to hurt A and made him utter an exclamation of pain. And A was using v2.


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## Deshi Basara (Jun 8, 2011)

> Wow major assumption, with no backing here.



He's using logic.Try it yourself.



> And Minato left the field because he knew he was screwed....................
> *
> See how silly that sounds.*



Indeed it does, because it contradicts the manga.There was a signal send for retreat and Minato had to obey.


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## αce (Jun 8, 2011)

No one has ever advocated (as far as I know) Raikage being faster then Minato's Hiraishin. He can't be. Hiraishin is just a completely new level of movement. It might not even be movement, as his "speed" is teleportation.
That being said, EVERY single feat in this chapter came from the fact that Minato had Hiriaishin prepped as soon as the fight started.

There was no elaboration on his shunshin speed. Meaning this entire argument is completely pointless.
As far as I'm concerned, Raikage's shunshin is equal to Minato's until he clearly demonstrates it to be superior.

And Minato's reflexes are better then A's movement speed.
Which is not a surprise considering reflexes are generally faster then how fast you can move.


So in conclusion, Minato and A are equal in movement speed. But Minato is much faster overall thanks to the genius of Hiraishin.

And I don't know why Minato fans get so angry when I say this.


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## Namikaze-Minato (Jun 8, 2011)

me either. i completely agree with you


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## Turrin (Jun 8, 2011)

Why are people arguing over whether Minato could pierce Raikage's shroud or not, obviously he could have done so with a simple Kunai attack considering Bee risked using the Hachibi's power to save his brother from that attack.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jun 8, 2011)

Sphere said:


> A simple kick from Minato was all that it took to hurt A and made him utter an exclamation of pain. And A was using v2.



And the same expression made by Sasuke after being slammed by Raiage bomb? 

Link removed

They fill the shock of being of being slammed to the ground, enough to let out an expression. 

A similar occurrence to both Sasuke and Naruto, after being caught by Kakashi/Zetsu

Link removed
Link removed

It doesn't indicate they were hurt, as we seen in both situations they are A ok.


And A was using V2? There is no V2, just an implication of more chakara into the shroud. In which he has clearly refined over the 16 year gap, as his bulk.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 8, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Why are people arguing over whether Minato could pierce Raikage's shroud or not, obviously he could have done so with a simple Kunai attack considering Bee risked using the Hachibi's power to save his brother from that attack.


So you're saying a simple kunai>chidori gatana?


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## Namikaze-Minato (Jun 8, 2011)

^^bc some people come up with the weirdest shit in there heads lol. makes no sense.


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## Skeith (Jun 8, 2011)

*..................

*Walks Away**


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## manga genius (Jun 8, 2011)

♠Ace♠ said:


> No one has ever advocated (as far as I know) Raikage being faster then Minato's Hiraishin. He can't be. Hiraishin is just a completely new level of movement. It might not even be movement, as his "speed" is teleportation.
> That being said, EVERY single feat in this chapter came from the fact that Minato had Hiriaishin prepped as soon as the fight started.
> 
> There was no elaboration on his shunshin speed. Meaning this entire argument is completely pointless.
> ...




I agree completely, although I dont know a Minato fan who would be angry with this at all.


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## Deleted member 175252 (Jun 8, 2011)

Base Minato < V2 Raikage
Minato With Hirashin > V2 Raikage

thats all there is to it really.


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## Namikaze-Minato (Jun 8, 2011)

PrazzyP said:


> Base Minato < V2 Raikage
> Minato With Hirashin > V2 Raikage
> 
> thats all there is to it really.



now it's turned into a "noone can hurt A with his shroud. only penetrating/piercing power".


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jun 8, 2011)

Minato Namikaze05 said:


> now it's turned into a "noone can hurt A with his shroud. only penetrating/piercing power".



Actually good sir, such is a continuation of an argument in the library, only the library cannot use telegram info, thus we are simply continuing the debate here.

But of course you knew that.


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## Namikaze-Minato (Jun 8, 2011)

lol. you're arguments and points are just humorous. even with no proof


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## ashher (Jun 8, 2011)

I think in narutoverse speed=reflex+movement.

Minato's shown some unbelievable reflex feat in this chap. I guess he developed such reflex because of his use of hirashin and high level shunshin. His reflex got adapted to such movements.


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## Sphere (Jun 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> They fill the shock of being of being slammed to the ground, enough to let out an expression.


I'm glad that you understood that. A's shroud did not stop him feeling the shock of Minato's kick, a blunt attack. Now a much stronger blunt attack comes to mind..



> There is no V2, just an implication of more chakara into the shroud.


Well, that's what is meant when v2 is mentioned. More chakra into the shroud, or powering up. And v2 is characterized by A's rising hair, see bottom right panel.



> In which he has clearly refined over the 16 year gap, as his bulk.


Baseless speculation as ususal. Or can you give ONE logical reason why a man who's clearly past his physical prime should've improved over the years?


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Jun 8, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> This is worse than the days Itachi gets hype.





reggiefarnogg said:


> kunai was down at his side but he have to throw it in the air a bit since it at raikage head level WHEN RAIKAGE FIST ALREADY AT HIS FACE (amazing speed feat) - 1
> 
> teleport to tree kunai - 2
> 
> ...


Actually that all occurred in the time it took Raikage in the middle of his dash punch to move the distance from in front of the kunai to behind him.


IpHr0z3nI said:


> Wow major assumption, with no backing here.
> 
> And Minato left the field because he knew he was screwed....................
> 
> ...


Okay seriously are you trolling? I suppose if I have to ask.

It sounds *a lot* more rational than Minato seeing the punch saying holy shit I gotta get outta here-then getting to the tree and saying, I was so scared I left my kunai behind, but now I can get him from behind. 

Really?  See how silly that sounds.

Of course he planned it don't be ridiculous.

And what madness is this you speak of? The Rasengan has to connect to do damage  HOLY SHIT?!? You mean the attack actually has to connect to work? When did this happen?  You do know that Chidori also needs to connect in order to damage right. Even if that's not what you meant that's what you wrote. That's what you implied.

As for the continued argument of different types of damage, I'll go with your hollow point vs slug argument, but remember the slug transfers more energy even through armor than a hollow point, so even if the bullet doesn't get through you still feel it through the vest. My argument is that the explosive nature of Rasengan would be far more effective than the simple stabbing motion of the Chidori. And if it damages within then it is possible that it would bypass the outer armor all together. Then again it isn't a Juken attack. But it has equal or greater penetrating power to chidori as you admitted when you said damage from within which is the definition of penetration in the manner of which we're saying.

And seriously I direct you back to the water tower. Chidori stopped before it even affected the other side of the tower. The rasengan exploded the back of it. Vastly superior penetrating power and damage potential. 



♠Ace♠ said:


> No one has ever advocated (as far as I know) Raikage being faster then Minato's Hiraishin. He can't be. Hiraishin is just a completely new level of movement. It might not even be movement, as his "speed" is teleportation.
> That being said, EVERY single feat in this chapter came from the fact that Minato had Hiriaishin prepped as soon as the fight started.
> 
> There was no elaboration on his shunshin speed. Meaning this entire argument is completely pointless.
> ...


Actually I agree and am fine with this statement. As such I rep you. 


Sphere said:


> Baseless speculation as ususal. Or can you give ONE logical reason why a man who's clearly past his physical prime should've improved over the years?


My only question on that one is, are you sure A is past his physical prime. He's a workout-holic so I doubt his body has had the opportunity to degrade or stagnate.

I'm guessing that A being is around fifty at the most. Hiruzen was stated to be still in his prime by Orochimaru as late as the age of sixty. He was retiring on top. Jiraiya and Tsunade are both also in their fifties and still considered at the top of their game. So I think it's perfectly reasonable that A is still in his prime and able to improve over the intervening time period.


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## J. Fooly (Jun 8, 2011)

Sphere said:


> A simple kick from Minato was all that it took to hurt A and made him utter an exclamation of pain. And A was using v2.





I'm taking the bait but... Killer Bee is the one who hit A. He knocked him out of the way before Minato's kunai connected.


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## navy (Jun 8, 2011)

The question is why did Bee save A? D


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## ? (Jun 8, 2011)

Because Minato was about to kill him.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 8, 2011)

A was never hit by Minato actually. He was pushed out of the way by Bee. Minato appeared in midair with the intent of thrusting kunai down. His knee didn't actually make contact with A.

Also, I do believe that the kunai was going to pierce the shroud. Why else would Bee interfere. Of all people besides A, Bee should know the properties of the shroud.


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## Reddan (Jun 8, 2011)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> A was never hit by Minato actually. He was pushed out of the way by Bee. Minato appeared in midair with the intent of thrusting kunai down. His knee didn't actually make contact with A.
> 
> Also, I do believe that the kunai was going to pierce the shroud. Why else would Bee interfere. Of all people besides A, Bee should know the properties of the shroud.



I would wager a lot, that the kunai alone would not have been enough to get through the Raikage's defenses. I think Rasengan would be needed for this. You forget that A and Minato fought several more times. I suspect Minato struggled to land the finishing blow and thus developed Rasengan for such opponents. It is possible even the Rasengan alone would only severely wound A. There had to be a reason for him to be so keen to add his element into the move.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 8, 2011)

arednad said:


> I would wager a lot, that the kunai alone would not have been enough to get through the Raikage's defenses. I think Rasengan would be needed for this. You forget that A and Minato fought several more times. I suspect Minato struggled to land the finishing blow and thus developed Rasengan for such opponents. It is possible even the Rasengan alone would only severely wound A. There had to be a reason for him to be so keen to add his element into the move.



Then why did Bee save him? If the shroud would've deflected the kunai like it did to Sasuke's blade, then it would've created an opening for A. Logically, one must assume that the kunai was about to injure A.


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## ~Link~ (Jun 8, 2011)

My post from the other thread:



> Are you guys for real?
> 
> Talking about Minato being able to dodge A's punch with his Hiraishin. Okay, that's a fact.
> 
> *But WHY don't you guys talk about A being able to have that speed and be so close to punching Minato DUE to HIS JUTSU/TECHNIQUE, the Lightning Shroud?????*


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## Reddan (Jun 8, 2011)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> Then why did Bee save him? If the shroud would've deflected the kunai like it did to Sasuke's blade, then it would've created an opening for A. Logically, one must assume that the kunai was about to injure A.



Sometimes it is better to be safe than sorry, who knows what kind of elemental power Minato was channelling into the kunai. Let's wait and see the next week. I thought last week Kishimoto would clarify the Hiraishin question and I feel the next couple of weeks he will clarify this matter up.


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## hitokugutsu (Jun 8, 2011)

Xerces said:


> So can we finally all agree that Sasuke>Minato, in terms of speed? This chapter couldn't have made it any clearer.



What? 

Minato saw Raikage *full speed* coming for him. We even saw the SSJ2 sparkles on Raikage indicating indeed his full speed. Minato was able to react to this due to Hiraishin, but he *saw* it coming

Sasuke with MS couldnt follow full speed Raikage with his eyes

Also Sasuke needed Sharingan to dodge SSJ1 Raikage. Panels zoomed in on this and showed it clearly


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## Descent of the Lion (Jun 8, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> He did? He needed teleportation to avoid getting punched in the face.



Speed is speed.


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## Xerces (Jun 8, 2011)

hitokugutsu said:


> What?
> 
> Minato saw Raikage *full speed* coming for him. We even saw the SSJ2 sparkles on Raikage indicating indeed his full speed. Minato was able to react to this due to Hiraishin, but he *saw* it coming
> 
> ...



*A was only in V1 form in his skirmish with Minato.* That can be deduced by comparing A's physical characteristics during his fight with Minato, and his fight with Sasuke. 

A had indicated that Minato had trumped his _'full speed'_. One could easily interpersonal this as A referring to V2, but this is a false notion. As previously stated, when comparing the physical characteristics of A in a known V1 state, and A in this current fight, any rational reader must conclude that A was not in V2. 

Furthermore, A stating that Minato had (barely) trumped his _'full speed'_, only confirmed that A had not yet transcended his skills into a V2 form. Moreover, the fact that A needed to resort to V2 against his battle with Sasuke only confirms that Sasuke is superior to Minato in terms of speed.


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## hitokugutsu (Jun 8, 2011)

Xerces said:


> A was only in V1 form with his skirmish with Minato. That can be deduced by comparing Raikages physical characteristics during his fight with Minato, and his fight with Sasuke.
> 
> A had indicated that Minato had trumped his _'full speed'_. One could easily interpersonal this as A referring to V2, but this is a false notion. As previously stated, when comparing the physical characteristics of A in a known V1 state, and A in this current fight, any rational reader must conclude that A was not in V2.
> 
> Furthermore, A stating that Minato had (barely) trumped his _'full speed'_ only confirmed that A had not yet transcended his skills into a V2 form. Moreover, the fact that A needed to resort to V2 against his battle with Sasuke only confirms that Sasuke is superior to Minato in terms of speed.



They were ordered to retreat at the same time they found out that Bee is the jin.


Bottom right panel. Clear *sparkles* around Raikage indicating SSJ2. Also you can see to lower end of his *hair standing up*. The reason his hair isnt standing up more (like when facing Sasuke) is becasue he's wearing a head-band in the flashback

Clear indication Raikage is using full speed. Also coupled with Raikages comment on *full speed* usage

Also A has fought both Sasuke & Minato. And he called Minato the fastest. Thus Minato is the fastest. Period

Doesnt matter of Minato uses Hiraishin to up his speed, its part of his arsenal. Just like Raikage using ninjutsu to up his speed, and Sasuke using Sharingan to up his reaction time allowing him to dodge SSJ1 Raikage


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## Bakatsu (Jun 8, 2011)

Xerces said:


> *
> A needed to resort to V2 against his battle with Sasuke only confirms that Sasuke is superior to Minato in terms of speed.*


*

Your argument is so wrong... A activated V2 because of the MS (and probably because he knew about amaterasu) not because Sasuke had superior speed.*


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## Sphere (Jun 8, 2011)

Amat?rasu?s Son said:


> My only question on that one is, are you sure A is past his physical prime. He's a workout-holic so I doubt his body has had the opportunity to degrade or stagnate.


He certainly looks to be afflicted by ageing. What with the wrinkles on his face and Naruto's addressing him as grandpa...
And ageing is an inevitable process, which can only be slowed down (through excercise), but not completely halted.
Obviously Raikage being a fitness freak would mean that current Raikage is just slightly weaker than in his prime.



> I'm guessing that A being is around fifty at the most. Hiruzen was stated to be still in his prime by Orochimaru as late as the age of sixty.


IIRC Oro stated that 10 years younger Hiruzen would've taken him out... That would only mean that 60 year old Hiruzen was still > Oro. Not that Hiruzen didn't decline at all.



Jetto no Kachi said:


> I'm taking the bait but... Killer Bee is the one who hit A. He knocked him out of the way before Minato's kunai connected.


You're right. But Raikage felt the shock of Bee's tentacle hitting him, though it didn't pierce his raiton armour. This disproves the person I originally quoted, who claimed that A can only be hurt if his raiton armour is pierced.

Raikage will feel the shock of Minato's rasengan hitting him, even if it doesn't pierce his armour. Even if you're wearing a bulletproof vest, you will still feel the shock of the bullet hitting you.


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## Dim Mak (Jun 8, 2011)

WhatADrag said:


> V1 at the time was his full speed.
> 
> Obviously the Raikage developed and started training with V2 after his encounter with V2.





conradoserpa said:


> Minato was faster than the Raikage, but now A is faster than he was in THAT battle.
> 
> God knows if Minato would be faster nowadays or not if he was alive (I'm sure he would be, but he's dead).


What? Where did you guys get this information from? Seriously stop making up things and pretend as if it is canon.


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## Opuni (Jun 8, 2011)

i JUST cant believe the retardation on this thread, why are ppl trying to downplay minato's speed? he is the fastest shinobi ever, get over it, A uses a raiton shroud to enhance his speed, sasuke uses body activation {lee's jutsu},naruto uses the kyuubi shroud to enhance his speed, everyone uses their own jutsu to do it, some can even use sand as a medium to enhance their speed, stop FUCKING speaking of minato as if he is nothing without his jutsu, if so then every ninja is useless without their jutsu, just what the Fuck i up with this forum?


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## Sniffers (Jun 8, 2011)

♠Ace♠ said:


> No one has ever advocated (as far as I know) Raikage being faster then Minato's Hiraishin. He can't be. Hiraishin is just a completely new level of movement. It might not even be movement, as his "speed" is teleportation.
> That being said, EVERY single feat in this chapter came from the fact that Minato had Hiriaishin prepped as soon as the fight started.
> 
> There was no elaboration on his shunshin speed. Meaning this entire argument is completely pointless.
> ...


This. [Though Minato could be a little faster in movement speed than A.]

Also, the Raiton shroud boosts A's reaction speed above that of Minato. Manga canon statement. Still Minato's reaction speed was shown to be impressive this chapter, but that was to be expected from a character known to be a speed demon.


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## Mistshadow (Jun 8, 2011)

OKAY, I been keeping track of this thread on my phone and finally got to my laptop to type my take. I have read every single post here.

First of all this chapter proved NOTHING at all about minato's shunshin speed and him being capable and not capable of moving at the same speed of raikage. When you have shunshin, hiraishin is just icing on the cake, what's easier to do, teleport or move. Teleport obviously as the person can't keep track of you. If he moved he would have been able to be tracked. I still am in the opinion that Minato is fully capable of moving at the same speed with his shunshins as raikage because of the speed comment among a variety of other reasons I will address later.

Second of all, people who think that minato was only able to react at that last split second are wrong and incorrect. That is the time and only time he NEEDED to react and teleport away. There was no point in moving before raikage threw the punch because then he wouldn't be taken by surprise. Much easier to take someone by surprise right when they throw a punch which he did, and along with that he teleported back to the kunai he left in his place an instant later. This shows us his reflexes are greater than raikage, AND if he was able to respond all at this point in time with teleportation, I don't see anything keeping him from using shunshin to dodge also. But why use an inferior technique when you have teleportation at your disposal. Icing on a cake 

Third, to the people who think that minato would not be able to penetrate raikage......REALLY>? really!? Comeon, he sliced through B's tentacle pretty damn well, and keep in mind this is a bijuu's body, more durable than the ordinary human. This should tell us either minato is super strong being able to slice harder than normal, or there is something not normal with that kunai. With it's design and the fact that we know minato usually uses them as his primary weapon in battle, we can assume like every other character who uses bladed weapons as their primary attacks, samurai sasuke b asuma etc, he can ALSO use some kind of chakra flow which would explain the big cut from the tiny blade. 
Minato isn't some chump who would foolishly attack someone to find their weapon useless. His attack would have connected if it wasn't for B interference. His contact with him did just fine pushing him back.

Fourth, that was Raikage's top speed. Raikage was in his prime at this point too. He wasn't some amateur. He was AT LEAST kakashi's age I would say. Raikage said in current time that minato was the fastest, we experienced a moment when we saw minato out class raikage, would be bad story writing to not have this be an example of why raikage meant he was teh fastest. on top of that raikage COULDNT claim title of fastest until minato passed away.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 8, 2011)

Stronger A gets cross countered by sasuke.
Weaker A speed-blitzes minato.



I think the important thing for people to remember is that hiraishin is a SUMMONING JUTSU.
Minato is not using speed since he is being summoned to his jutsu-shiki.

Don't say "speed is speed", because minato isn't using speed.
He isn't using speed, distance, inertia, friction, gravity,force,velocity,mass,acceleration.

Before ANYONE goes and tries to say he equals raikage, he has to come on his level.

Shunshin Vs Shunshin. Minato wasn't even moving. He was BEING MOVED.
He moved twice in the whole fight.
1.to throw the kunai.
2.To cut with it.

Raikage moved the whole time.
Hiraishin ignores the laws of physics, Raikage's Nintaijutsu style. Let's call it... Alpha style, doesn't.
It uses 
1.Raiton no yoroi to boost synapse firing,Defense and Offense.
2.Shunshin for movement.
3.Wrasslin moves for ass-kickery 

Minato uses
1. Hiraishin for teleportation(offensive and defensive manuvers)
2.Shunshin for moving when he CAN'T teleport.
3.Rasengan/seals for putting the hurtin on folk, and coming back for more


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## Mistshadow (Jun 8, 2011)

but this doesnt prove anything about minato's shunshin so you can't say he is slower. he didn't NEED to shunshin when he could teleport. For all you know he can be just as fast if not faster than raikage with shunshin.


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## Haloman (Jun 8, 2011)

Wow, over 500 posts? Crazy. 

So why is it that so many people say using Hiraishin isn't adding to Minato's speed, but using Raiton shroud counts for Raikage?

Let's consider a race between the two. Much like how Superman and The Flash had a race around the world. What would decide this race between A and Minato? It would be their techniques, of course. So, here's the question then:

Can Raikage outrun the kunais that Minato throws? From this chapter we've just seen, the answer is *no*.

So, who would win the race? I think we've just found out who's faster.


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## Space Jam (Jun 8, 2011)

He's faster with or without Hiraishin.


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## cdnab (Jun 8, 2011)

Mistshadow said:


> but this doesnt prove anything about minato's shunshin so you can't say he is slower. he didn't NEED to shunshin when he could teleport. For all you know he can be just as fast if not faster than raikage with shunshin.



I agree. This chapter showed A attacking the 4th with his max speed and the 4th evading and countering A's attack with his max speed. Then evading and countering Bee's attack.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 8, 2011)

Mistshadow said:


> but this doesnt prove anything about minato's shunshin so you can't say he is slower. he didn't NEED to shunshin when he could teleport. For all you know he can be just as fast if not faster than raikage with shunshin.



We don't need to see minato's shunshin.
The formula as per the databook for shunshin is
1.Physical ability
2.Chakra amount
3.Distance.

Minato is
1. Less fit than raikage
2.Has less chakra
3. Did not have any distance, since raikage was already in his guard.

He COULDN'T shunshin, since it is NOT teleporting, but moving really fast, and when someone is inside your guard, preventing you from moving back,forward, left,right,up or down, AND has higher reflexes, you ain't gonna do nothin. You gonna dai. Or teleport .

He had one option, not two.


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## Mistshadow (Jun 8, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> We don't need to see minato's shunshin.
> The formula as per the databook for shunshin is
> 1.Physical ability
> 2.Chakra amount
> ...



Love how you were able to make up a lot of traits to say raikage>minato.....

1. Fitness? cool story didn't know we had a set on who was more fit. 
2. less chakra? all we know is E is able to emit tailed beast levels, and minato is able to seal half of an "inifinite" chakra beast with shiki fuujin and into his son. so glad you were wrong there.
3. couldn't cover the distance? just as easily said didnt NEED to as he had hiraishin in place already. what's more convenient, hiraishin or shunshin? teleportation or actual movemet........and we KNOW minato is good at shunshin, but why should he when he can teleport.

that was fun

edit: high reflexes? yeah okay that's why minato was able to activate his jutsu when raikage's fist was like an inch from his face and activate it again to teleport to his back and make a motion to strike him. all in the time it took raikage to realize he just missed.


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## kisame123 (Jun 8, 2011)

♠Ace♠ said:


> There was no elaboration on his shunshin speed. Meaning this entire argument is completely pointless. As far as I'm concerned, Raikage's shunshin is equal to Minato's until he clearly demonstrates it to be superior.


I think that's not a good way of looking at the matter. Raikage has demonstrated that his shunshin speed is clearly the superior in this instance. why does he have to demonstrate his shunshin being superior while the same is not necessary for Minato? that doesn't make sense, why is Minato automatically presumed to be faster than Raikage concerning shunshin speed when he hasn't even demonstrated feats on a similar scale? it is Minato who needs to prove that his shunshin is superior.

last week, Minato fans ruined the threads with claims of Minato possessing a superior shunshin. however, this chapter (fortunately) has clarified that Raikage was factoring hiraishin in the claim that Minato was the fastest. if Minato has a shunshin that's superior, then there should be nothing stopping him for demonstrating such a feat. remember, Minato is dead and has an extremely limited time to showcase his abilities in the flashbacks. Kishimoto has shown us what he has to offer in that limited amount of time. meaning that his best moves or jutsu, things he was famous for, have already been showcased. in the numerous occasions which called for him to perform speed feats, particularly those with long distances, Minato has used S/T jutsu. he has used shunshin, but nothing compared to Raikage. if Minato could shunshin faster than the Raikage, I'm sure it would have been shown by now. otherwise, we should stop resorting to these claims since they have no basis in the manga.


♠Ace♠ said:


> And Minato's reflexes are better then A's movement speed. Which is not a surprise considering reflexes are generally faster then how fast you can move.


true, but Raikage's reflexes are on par with Minato's and his raiton armor enhances that even further.


Mistshadow said:


> but this doesnt prove anything about minato's shunshin so you can't say he is slower. he didn't NEED to shunshin when he could teleport. For all you know he can be just as fast if not faster than raikage with shunshin.


denial


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 8, 2011)

Halo2298 said:


> Wow, over 500 posts? Crazy.
> 
> So why is it that so many people say using Hiraishin isn't adding to Minato's speed, but using Raiton shroud counts for Raikage?


Foolish.
The raiton shroud does NOT add to his speed. It adds to his reflexes, which allows him to use shunshin offensively. It also adds to his attack and defense.

Hiraishin also doesn't add to minato's speed, but his POSITION.
He does not move, HE IS MOVED. It is a summoning jutsu which allows for him to summon himself without using chakra, seals or anything other than activation of his own chakra.



> Let's consider a race between the two. Much like how Superman and The Flash had a race around the world. What would decide this race between A and Minato? It would be their techniques, of course. So, here's the question then:
> 
> Can Raikage outrun the kunais that Minato throws? From this chapter we've just seen, the answer is *no*.


Shut up.
Raikage had already begun to stop. That is why he didn't cover any more distance. Shunshin relies on a set distance for it to work.
You calculate the distance with the chakra, and It gives your body the exact burst it needs to reach that distance.



> So, who would win the race? I think we've just found out who's faster.


No, you just hurped.


.ProFound. said:


> He's faster with or without Hiraishin.


Prove it.
Prove that he MOVES, and IS NOT MOVED faster than raikage.
The only equivalence they have had would be is Madara, and how he reacted.

Madara was still moving when he attacked naruto. Minato saved him.
Madara was not able to move, but could only phase against raikage.
Hard to justify, HOWEVER, since Shunshin works in occordance to how much chakra one has, Raikage Literally has more chakra to put into shunshin, thus could not be faster.

IF raikage put 100 percent of his chakra into a shunshin
And minato put 100 percent, To move to the same distance,
Raikage would have chakra as strong as a bijuu behind his , and minato would have... Jounin level chakra behind his.

See the difference? It's about 50 times difference.


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Jun 8, 2011)

Mistshadow said:


> OKAY, I been keeping track of this thread on my phone and finally got to my laptop to type my take. I have read every single post here.
> 
> First of all this chapter proved NOTHING at all about minato's shunshin speed and him being capable and not capable of moving at the same speed of raikage. When you have shunshin, hiraishin is just icing on the cake, what's easier to do, teleport or move. Teleport obviously as the person can't keep track of you. If he moved he would have been able to be tracked. I still am in the opinion that Minato is fully capable of moving at the same speed with his shunshins as raikage because of the speed comment among a variety of other reasons I will address later.
> 
> ...



You bring up valid points. A did seem to imply that no matter how fast he is Minato was faster. Which is logical. No matter how fast the Raiton Armor is, it cannot surpass Minato's warp drive.

On the kunai you've raised an interesting point. It is a space time kunai. Think about that. Space time teleport, space time barrier, space time...blade?

Logically if he has a space time blade, there could be no defense. What do you guys think? I'm making a thread. Here it is. .


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## sinjin long (Jun 8, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Foolish.
> The raiton shroud does NOT add to his speed. It adds to his reflexes, which allows him to use shunshin offensively. It also adds to his attack and defense.
> 
> Hiraishin also doesn't add to minato's speed, but his POSITION.
> ...



you are in a way correct but the problem is that you are assuming that neither minato or madara COULDN'T move but in reality they simply did not HAVE to move.

minato can instantly warp to another location(as you stated) madara can phase an attack thru him.

its efficiency of action,in combat,especially hand to hand, one strives for no wasted movement,why needlessly expend time,position,and energy(chakra)when one does not need to? there is no gain from it. not when you can warp or phase.

i'm not saying they could /couldn't move just that it would be wasteful to do if they don't need to.

and besides we're dealing w/minato & madara,2 of the premier legends in the verse. they should be portrayed as complete masters.


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## Garfield (Jun 8, 2011)

Minato just never loses does he 

The spoiler had it completely wrong, it was A and B who were scared of Minato, not the other way around.

Also, Minato was much faster than V1 raikage. HE teleported TWICE in the time Raikage used his Max Speed to hit Minato.

That's some badass speed

Also, to anyone saying Raikage isn't V2 when Raikage himself says he's at Max speed, which is presumably V2:
Bottom Panel
Forehead protector keeping hair from going Sayiyan like. Y U say that he's not V2? It's not conclusive evidence, but considering A is saying himself, I think it's deducible that he's in V2

Last but not least, he had speed enough to first toss the kunai behind Raikage and THEN hiraishin to some other place, then hiraishin back.

All the while A was just trying to punch. At FULL speed.

If you still doubt Minato's speed,


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## sheshyo (Jun 8, 2011)

Halo2298 said:


> Wow, over 500 posts? Crazy.
> 
> So why is it that so many people say using Hiraishin isn't adding to Minato's speed, but using Raiton shroud counts for Raikage?
> 
> ...



There's actually no evidence to suggest kunais are faster. On the contrary, kunai/shuriken throws are generally seen to be avoided or countered in fights, I've no doubt Raikage's speed blitzes surpass it. Also, consider, kunais naturally slow down as it travels, while lightning powered Raikage can traverse at constant speed covering greater distance. 

So, despite Hiraishin being instantaneous, Minato's speed is ultimately limited by his kunai speed.


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## Garfield (Jun 8, 2011)

sheshyo said:


> There's actually no evidence to suggest kunais are faster. On the contrary, kunai/shuriken throws are generally seen to be avoided or countered in fights, I've no doubt Raikage's speed blitzes surpass it. Also, consider, kunais naturally slow down as it travels, while lightning powered Raikage can traverse at constant speed covering greater distance.
> 
> So, despite Hiraishin being instantaneous, Minato's speed is ultimately limited by his kunai speed.


ON the other hand, as Minato proved you and Madara wrong, a Kunai isn't useful only AFTER it reaches destination, but mostly in midair. He used that here as well. COnsidering in that way the kunai has to travel a shorter distance, Kunai > Raikage and any other blitzer.


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## Space Jam (Jun 8, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> IF raikage put 100 percent of his chakra into a shunshin
> And minato put 100 percent, To move to the same distance,
> Raikage would have chakra as strong as a bijuu behind his , *and minato would have... Jounin level chakra behind his.*
> 
> See the difference? It's about 50 times difference.



I`m not gonna prove anything to you because it wouldn't matter. You either hate minato or really like A.


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## sheshyo (Jun 8, 2011)

adee said:


> ON the other hand, as Minato proved you and Madara wrong, a Kunai isn't useful only AFTER it reaches destination, but mostly in midair. He used that here as well. COnsidering in that way the kunai has to travel a shorter distance, Kunai > Raikage and any other blitzer.



But it wasn't speed of the kunai that overcame Raikage, it was rather its strategic positioning. My response was only regards to their pure speeds, of course, there's more to the fight than that.


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## Garfield (Jun 8, 2011)

When you say "their" do you refer to Minato and A or to Kunai and A?


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Jun 8, 2011)

sheshyo said:


> There's actually no evidence to suggest kunais are faster. On the contrary, kunai/shuriken throws are generally seen to be avoided or countered in fights, I've no doubt Raikage's speed blitzes surpass it. Also, consider, kunais naturally slow down as it travels, while lightning powered Raikage can traverse at constant speed covering greater distance.
> 
> So, despite Hiraishin being instantaneous, Minato's speed is ultimately limited by his kunai speed.



Well that's true, but there is issue about what to do when the kunai are already at the destination. Not much use in a race unless Minato has already been there. But in a situation like this fight then it becomes deeply relevant.


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## sheshyo (Jun 8, 2011)

adee said:


> When you say "their" do you refer to Minato and A or to Kunai and A?



Minato and A. In other words, who'd be faster in a straight forward race? I'm saying Minato would be limited by his kunai speed, while A will/should travel at high speeds consistently, and faster than the kunai. Only way this would be false is if Minato's kunai can travel faster than A, which I doubt with reasons I stated earlier.



Amatérasu’s Son said:


> Well that's true, but there is issue  about what to do when the kunai are already at the destination. Not much  use in a race unless Minato has already been there. But in a situation  like this fight then it becomes deeply relevant.



There's definitely more to the fight than speed alone, Minato no doubt prepared/strategized very well with the placement of those kunais, especially impressive was the one he left while avoiding A's strike.


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## Garfield (Jun 8, 2011)

Yeah, but I doubt most rational people ever doubted A's straightline speed. The point is though, that in a fight that hardly matters most of the time. And Minato's reflexes trump those of A anyways.


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## MartyMcFly1 (Jun 8, 2011)

The character bias in this thread is jawdropping. Look here: Minato already had one kunai on the battlefield. In V1 Raikage's hair does not stand up. In V2, Minato already had one kunai on the battlefield. Raikage's hair stands up. Link removed In the bottom right panel Raikage's hair is obviously standing up, the only reason all of his hair didn't stand up is because he had a forehead protector on. Raikage was in V2 and was completely outclassed by Minato. In the chapter before this one Raikage admitted that Minato was much stronger than him. Minato beat Raikage in 2 moves, Raikage was saved by Bee. People need to stop bitching. Raikage fans need to seriously STFU!!!! it's getting really annoying. Such shameless character bias is irrational at this point. Minato wins.


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## Superstars (Jun 8, 2011)

There is no debate, Raikage himself stated last chapter that Minato was the faster shinobi and this chapter just confrimed it where both Minato and Raikage used both of their greatest abilities to the max and Minato's best was the better.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 8, 2011)

Sad thing is there is no v2, jsut the matter of how much chakra he puts in. He said max power, which means hes v3


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## †obitobi (Jun 8, 2011)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> The character bias in this thread is jawdropping. Look here: Link removed In V1 Raikage's hair does not stand up. In V2, Link removed Raikage's hair stands up. Link removed In the bottom right panel Raikage's hair is obviously standing up, the only reason all of his hair didn't stand up is because he had a forehead protector on. Raikage was in V2 and was completely outclassed by Minato. In the chapter before this one Raikage admitted that Minato was much stronger than him. Minato beat Raikage in 2 moves, Raikage was saved by Bee. People need to stop bitching. Raikage fans need to seriously STFU!!!! it's getting really annoying. Such shameless character bias is irrational at this point. Minato wins.



That, and this.



Guess people were counting age because they didn't see the hair thing.​


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## Cocoa (Jun 8, 2011)

That fight only provides proof of Minato's reaction time. It does not provide any relevant information on his combat speed or his reflexes.

Minato planned on using teleportation before he even fought them. So whether or not he reacted to Raikage with his own speed is irrelevant since he never planned on using it to begin with. So this neither proves that Minato or Raikage have faster combat speed or reflexes than the other. Also, reaction time =/= reflexes. Since reflexes are combat speed + reaction time. (In my opinion anyway)


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 8, 2011)

Mistshadow said:


> Love how you were able to make up a lot of traits to say raikage>minato.....


How is this for you.
Minato's Style is >>> Raikage's.
However his movement speed is not.
Otherwise, Raikage would have been hitting an after-image, raikage instead was about to roast his face.
Have we seen minato create an after image? We have with raikage...



> 1. Fitness? cool story didn't know we had a set on who was more fit.


Those muscles must be made of fat...



> 2. less chakra? all we know is E is able to emit tailed beast levels, and minato is able to seal half of an "inifinite" chakra beast with shiki fuujin and into his son. so glad you were wrong there.


Shut up.
He was out of chakra before he used it.
This
Sandaime was also out of it.

Shiki-fuujin is not fueled by chakra, but life. When your life is in danger from overuse of chakra, THEN it makes an effect, since you don't have a healthy life to give.



> 3. couldn't cover the distance? just as easily said didnt NEED to as he had hiraishin in place already. what's more convenient, hiraishin or shunshin? teleportation or actual movemet........and we KNOW minato is good at shunshin, but why should he when he can teleport.


Okay. Let me make it simple to you.
A 200 pound bear charges you.
What do you use. A fist or a gun?
A gun.

Why do you use the gun? Because it is cool? NO. Because if you used a fist, you would be dead. The gun becomes the ONLY option.

Minato used it out of necessity, because shunshin is based on moving your feet, and in the position he was in, there is no way he could "load" his body into postion to move.

The two options you think he had, was really only one option.
His ONLY option was to use hiraishin, because for the first time in a long time, someone was ACTUALLY blitzed in this manga. Raikage was ALL UP IN HIS GRILL.



> that was fun
> 
> edit: high reflexes? yeah okay that's why minato was able to activate his jutsu when raikage's fist was like an inch from his face and activate it again to teleport to his back and make a motion to strike him. all in the time it took raikage to realize he just missed.


Because it is based on thought.
Reflexes mean shit when you can't use them. Minato doesn't NEED to move to use hiraishin, or did you not understand that. The only speed it requires is a synapse fire, so when we see things like... I don't know, Raikage getting in minato's guard FROM THE FRONT, and because it only requires thought, he CAN escape, even if he WOULDN'T have the chance to escape on foot.

If could escape everything he wouldn't use it.



sinjin long said:


> you are in a way correct but the problem is that you are assuming that neither minato or madara COULDN'T move but in reality they simply did not HAVE to move.


Have you ever heard the term "coulda, would'a ,should'a"?
Unless they are pressed to the point that they COULDN'T move, there would be no reason to NOT move.
Obviously they are pressed into a position that they used contingencies, or they would have moved naturally out of the way.




> minato can instantly warp to another location(as you stated) madara can phase an attack thru him.
> 
> its efficiency of action,in combat,especially hand to hand, one strives for no wasted movement,why needlessly expend time,position,and energy(chakra)when one does not need to? there is no gain from it. not when you can warp or phase.
> 
> ...


My point is if they could have naturally moved, they would have, since their actions create unique and strange effects.
Moving through you, exposes your back to the enemy. And teleporting forces you to gather a new perspective view when you land. Minato DOESN'T have a byakugan.



> and besides we're dealing w/minato & madara,2 of the premier legends in the verse. they should be portrayed as complete masters.


They were not.
Minato was said to die BEFORE his time.
Raikage was about... 100 pounds lighter? More muscle= more cellular energy. That means moar chakra.





.ProFound. said:


> I`m not gonna prove anything to you because it wouldn't matter. You either hate minato or really like A.


I like both. ALOT.
Minato DOES have jounin level chakra.
Jounin are the ONLY ninja able to qualify to be kage, and if you HADN'T noticed, he was INFACT A JOUNIN IN THIS CHAPTER.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Jun 8, 2011)

Yeah no debate. Raikage admited Minato was the fastest, but now that he is dead. Raikage is the fastest. This chapter made raikage even surprised when he speedblitzed minato.


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## sinjin long (Jun 8, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> How is this for you.
> Minato's Style is >>> Raikage's.
> However his movement speed is not.
> Otherwise, Raikage would have been hitting an after-image, raikage instead was about to roast his face.
> ...



you don't really understand hand to hand combat,do you?

you do not make moves that are not required, and more muscle mass does equal more power, but decreases speed,flexibility,quikness of attack,and endurance.

in the real world,speed more often than not trumps power. you can have all the power in the world and be a OHKO type but if you cannot hit your target all that power is wasted.

think super trunks and vegeta vs stage 2 cell,and ali/foreman.


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## Mistshadow (Jun 8, 2011)

CandleGuy said:


> Damn this got bigger than a pairing thread.



thats cuz the mods merged like a dozen or so threads together and wont allow you to make individual ones lol which is nice
i like it easier to keep track of posts


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 8, 2011)

Vincent2k said:


> Yeah no debate. Raikage admited Minato was the fastest, but now that he is dead. Raikage is the fastest. This chapter made raikage even surprised when he speedblitzed minato.



After reading the manga pages, let me explain what happens, because it is confusing as hell.

Fight page one...


Top panels. Minato throws jutsu-shiki shuriken.
BOTTOM PANELS.

Minato readies himself.
Raikage turns on Raiton no yoroi.

Bottom left panel.
You see that lightning? Do you see the lines in front? THAT IS RAIKAGE.
He isn't even visible anymore.The front lines that make a semi-circle is him beginning to stop. You can tell because of the next scene.

Fight Second-page.

Do you see how now raikage is visible?
Do you know why? Because the style of punching he is using? A boxing straight, requires the lead foot to stop.



The panel where minato reaches the tree? Look at raikage's feet. They are stationary because the punch needs traction to work.

Also watch his arms. When minato is in front of him, his sholder is high.
It naturally drops because minato leaves AFTER the punch has left his sholder.
Look at minato's hands. Remember the Shuriken he had when raikage appeared? Gone?
Look at how far Raikage's sholder has gone. Low enough to be right where minato's DROPPED shuriken was.


Remember Hiraishin V2? Moving to a moving tag?

There. Minato didn't even throw the shuriken, it was there the whole time.
Minato didn't move once until he cut bee.

That was the mystery. Minato's shuriken are sharp as hell.
His reflexes are not better than raikage, otherwise he would have cross-countered. Minato didn't even move before raikage. An inch.
He would have moved FIRST, or moved AT ALL.
Minato technically didn't move.

He teleported one,two,three, and cut.
That only shows how awesome a summoning technique hiraishin is.


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## Tony Lou (Jun 8, 2011)

I thought there was a bigger gap, but it seems that Minato is only a little faster than A, considering how close the latter got to hitting him and the fact that he only managed to get away from his attack in the last second.


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## Cocoa (Jun 8, 2011)

Luiz said:


> I thought there was a bigger gap, but it seems that Minato is only a little faster than A, considering how close the latter got to hitting him and the fact that he only managed to get away from his attack in the last second.


 By faster I hope you don't mean combat speed or reflexes. If you do please read what I wrote below.



Cocoa said:


> That fight only provides proof of Minato's reaction time. It does not provide any relevant information on his combat speed or his reflexes.
> 
> Minato planned on using teleportation before he even fought them. So whether or not he reacted to Raikage with his own speed is irrelevant since he never planned on using it to begin with. So this neither proves that Minato or Raikage have faster combat speed or reflexes than the other. Also, reaction time =/= reflexes. Since reflexes are combat speed + reaction time. (In my opinion anyway)


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 8, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> you don't really understand hand to hand combat,do you?
> 
> you do not make moves that are not required, and more muscle mass does equal more power, but decreases speed,flexibility,quikness of attack,and endurance.


It does in naruto, where they derive stamina straight from cellular energy. The bigger you are, the more chakra you have. Or do you not understand chakra physics? 

Flexibility has nothing to do with muscle-mass, but joint range.
Quickness has to do with the ability to accelerate. Have you ever seen short distance runners? Football players? They are HUGE.
Because the bigger muscles you have, the faster you can move. That whole Thin=agile crap is stupid. When you are big, and TRAIN to move, you can be faster than a small person could imagine.

Endurance is the only one you win on, but that is because of energy economy, similar to what you are arguing on, but don't think for a second that skinny=fast. That is bullshit.



> in the real world,speed more often than not trumps power. you can have all the power in the world and be a OHKO type but if you cannot hit your target all that power is wasted.


But when you don't have power, speed is negligible.



> think super trunks and vegeta vs stage 2 cell,and ali/foreman.


Balance is the key.
The DBZ fights had none, forman had none.
Cell was fast,strong,tough,ect.
Ali was also balanced.


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## Tony Lou (Jun 8, 2011)

Cocoa said:


> By faster I hope you don't mean *combat speed* or reflexes. If you do please read what I wrote below.



That if you're talking about Minato's normal speed. But I believe we're comparing the enhanced speed granted by Raikage's shroud to Minato's Shiraishin technique.

His Shiraishin kunai/tag didn't take him away from Raikage's attack fast enough to make it before the latter got close to him.

If his S/T tech were significantly superior to Raikage's speed, avoiding his attack would have been like a walk in the park.


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## Haloman (Jun 8, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Shut up.



No. And there's no need to be rude.



> Foolish.
> The raiton shroud does NOT add to his speed. It adds to his reflexes, which allows him to use shunshin offensively. It also adds to his attack and defense.
> 
> Hiraishin also doesn't add to minato's speed, but his POSITION.
> He does not move, HE IS MOVED. It is a summoning jutsu which allows for him to summon himself without using chakra, seals or anything other than activation of his own chakra.



This is correct. He is simply moved. And now to bust out some relativity on you. To Minato, Minato is moving very slowly. He might even be perfectly still. He's simply moving himself through a fold in space. Making it a very short distance to travel.

From anyone else's perspective, though? He's just moved from Point A to Point B seemingly instantaneously. So how fast would he be moving to an observer who was watching?  R(ate) = D(istance) / T(ime)  <--- That fast. 

It's a pretty simple equation taught to most people in 6th grade or so. Anyway, unless you're Minato (which you aren't, just so you don't get lost in some delusion), you have to measure his speed by that equation. Much like the classic "dog on a raft/observer on shore" problem.


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## Cocoa (Jun 8, 2011)

Luiz said:


> That if you're talking about Minato's normal speed. But I believe we're comparing the enhanced speed granted by Raikage's shroud to Minato's Shiraishin technique.
> 
> His Shiraishin kunai/tag didn't take him away from Raikage's attack fast enough to make it before the latter got close to him.
> 
> If his S/T tech were significantly superior to Raikage's speed, avoiding his attack would have been like a walk in the park.



Well what I am referring to is that the panel does not display battle speed or reflex speed for Minato. It only shows a reaction feat. I am focusing solely on Minato.

I do not think it is necessary to bring up Raikage's speed at all. Since it falls within a strategy of "Allow the enemy to close in and allow them to attack. Then while they attack I blindside them from behind before they can recover."

Well actually if Bee did not save Raikage then Raikage would have died in three panels. So it is rather irrelevant if it is a stomp or not. 

This does point to the possibility that Older "A" Raikage has faster V1 speed than his younger self (more so with V2), especially if V2 is proven in the next few chapters. So people will stop saying V2 doesn't exist when it clearly does.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 8, 2011)

Halo2298 said:


> No. And there's no need to be rude.


Sorry.



> This is correct. He is simply moved. And now to bust out some relativity on you. To Minato, Minato is moving very slowly. He might even be perfectly still. He's simply moving himself through a fold in space. Making it a very short distance to travel.
> 
> From anyone else's perspective, though? He's just moved from Point A to Point B seemingly instantaneously. So how fast would he be moving to an observer who was watching?  R(ate) = D(istance) / T(ime)  <--- That fast.
> 
> It's a pretty simple equation taught to most people in 6th grade or so. Anyway, unless you're Minato (which you aren't, just so you don't get lost in some delusion), you have to measure his speed by that equation. Much like the classic "dog on a raft/observer on shore" problem.



See, that would work if Minato was using such a thing to move.
Hiraishin CAN'T be observed, because it pulls minato out of the dimension.
He is outside of Space/time.
He is simply there and not there, and somewhere else. What it does is leave people to wander HOW he got there, and looking for the reason he isn't.


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## Tony Lou (Jun 8, 2011)

Cocoa said:


> Well what I am referring to is that the panel does not display battle speed or reflex speed for Minato. It only shows a reaction feat. I am focusing solely on Minato.
> 
> I do not think it is necessary to bring up Raikage's speed at all. Since it falls within a strategy of "Allow the enemy to close in and allow them to attack. Then while they attack I blindside them from behind before they can recover."
> 
> ...



How would that mean nothing? When a character is much superior to the other in terms of speed, avoiding his attacks is a piece of cake. The inferior one just can't manage to even get close to connecting an attack, which Raikage did.

As for the strategy you mentioned, that rather sounds like speculation.

How does V2 need to be proven? We saw him powering up the lightning shroud, with his hair going up and all spiky. One of his bodyguards (the white one) described it, saying that he activated his reflexes further in order to keep up with the speed of the enemy's attack.

There was nothing left unclear or up to debate in that scene. The most you can discuss is the existence of the name ''V2''. But we already know that's just how the fans call it. But there is a second level.


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## Louis-954 (Jun 8, 2011)

Things to consider, this happened _**AT LEAST**_ 16yrs ago. A has drastically improved since that time. His shroud for example can be enhanced, furthur enhancing his speed.

At the time Minato may of been quicker, but if the Minato of back then were to face off against the Raikage of now I think he would have a much harder time. Just because a shinobi gets older doesn't mean they can't constantly improve their game.

Jiraiya didn't learn the Rasengan until he was 34. Orochimaru and Tsunade were also constantly developing new jutsu. Mifune is clearly stronger now than when he was young, Danzo as well.

So based on that I think it's logical to assume that A has improved his speed as well in the past 16yrs.


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## Grendel (Jun 8, 2011)

For the people saying that Minato couldn't react till A was an inch from his face...to me it seemed that he allowed A to get that close because he needed to be for the Kunai strategy Minato used.  He was able to react at the exact moment he needed to and conduct his counter attack....also had me moved any sooner than he loses the element of surprise that leaves A in a vulnerable position...

I may be wrong but to me it look like he intentionally waited till that moment to move..


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## Cocoa (Jun 8, 2011)

Louis-954 said:


> Things to consider, this happened _**AT LEAST**_ 16yrs ago. A has drastically improved since that time. His shroud for example can be enhanced, furthur enhancing his speed.



I agree.



Grendel22 said:


> For the people saying that Minato couldn't react till A was an inch from his face...to me it seemed that he allowed A to get that close because he needed to be for the Kunai strategy Minato used.  He was able to react at the exact moment he needed to and conduct his counter attack....also had me moved any sooner than he loses the element of surprise that leaves A in a vulnerable position...
> 
> I may be wrong but to me it look like he intentionally waited till that moment to move..



I agree it is very possible that this could be the cause.


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## Grendel (Jun 8, 2011)

Cocoa said:


> I agree.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree it is very possible that this could be the cause.



Minato just never gives the impression that he barely dodged the attack and was able to leave a Kunai behind and move before being hit.  If he barely reacted to the punch then he came up with that counter insanely fast...it all happened before the Raikage was able to finish the motion of the punch he threw...


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## Tony Lou (Jun 8, 2011)

Grendel22 said:


> For the people saying that Minato couldn't react till A was an inch from his face...to me it seemed that he allowed A to get that close because he needed to be for the Kunai strategy Minato used.  He was able to react at the exact moment he needed to and conduct his counter attack....also had me moved any sooner than he loses the element of surprise that leaves A in a vulnerable position...
> 
> I may be wrong but to me it look like he intentionally waited till that moment to move..



That's just a speculation, though.


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## Grendel (Jun 8, 2011)

Luiz said:


> That's just a speculation, though.



So is 90% of the library (although it was more of an interpretation rather than a speculation but that doesn't really matter)...I mean people actively argue against direct statements made in the manga...

I was merely providing another explanation that made more sense to me...nobody has to agree with me.

I just think it makes more sense that Raikage getting that close being part of Minato's strategy giving what followed...rather than Minato barely being able to react but still being able to set up a Kunai for a counter attack before Raikage could even finish the motion of his punch...


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## Cocoa (Jun 8, 2011)

Luiz said:


> That's just a speculation, though.


It is speculation, but it is still a possibility. 

Did you see my response to your post?


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## Chaos Hokage (Jun 8, 2011)

Minato's reaction time was quite impressive. He prove that he's truly the fastest shinobi in _Naruto_ by dodging Raikage at full speed by quickly performing his Hiraishin.


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## Cocoa (Jun 8, 2011)

Chaos Hokage said:


> Minato's reaction time was quite impressive. He prove that he's truly the fastest shinobi in the _Naruto_ by dodging Raikage at full speed by quickly performing his Hiraishin.



This does not prove he is the fastest. It just proves that he has great reaction time. Since it appears that Minato can teleport with Hirashin with just a thought, that only proves reaction time. 

In my opinion speed can either be battle speed or reflexes. This shows neither. Since reflexes = battle speed + reaction time. Proving they are all separate entities.


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## Grendel (Jun 8, 2011)

Cocoa said:


> It is speculation, but it is still a possibility.
> 
> Did you see my response to your post?



If my interpretation is speculation than so is the alternate one...as a speculation is basically reasoning based on incomplete evidence...

I interpreted what I saw but as there is no direct proof of either...if one is speculatory than both are...


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## Cocoa (Jun 8, 2011)

Grendel22 said:


> If my interpretation is speculation than so is the alternate one...as a speculation is basically reasoning based on incomplete evidence...
> 
> I interpreted what I saw but as there is no direct proof of either...if one is speculatory than both are...



That is what I was getting at. So we both agree.


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## Stylie25 (Jun 8, 2011)

Oh come on. Minato TELEPORTS AT THE FREAKING SPEED OF LIGHT. no speed that raikage could travel, v1 or v2 (even tho these are fanmade) can be faster than minato


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 8, 2011)

Minato had enough reaction to drop the Kunai and dodge before Raikage could hit. Pretty insane.


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## Cocoa (Jun 8, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Minato had enough reaction to drop the Kunai and dodge before Raikage could hit. Pretty insane.


Yes. The fact that Minato purposely dropped the kunai so he could get behind Raikage shows very good evidence that he purposely waited until Raikage was that close before he teleported.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 8, 2011)

Could be and could not be. Who knows


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## Cocoa (Jun 8, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Could be and could not be. Who knows



Quite true.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 8, 2011)

I don't count Teleportation stuff as Speed, its teleportation. 

So the Raikage is faster, but Minato still wins because he can Teleport.

But depends on your definition of Speed.



Grendel22 said:


> *Minato just never gives the impression that he barely dodged the attack* and was able to leave a Kunai behind and move before being hit.  If he barely reacted to the punch then he came up with that counter insanely fast...it all happened before the Raikage was able to finish the motion of the punch he threw...



The raikage's punch was a inch away from his face, and Minato had a Shocked face on. After he teleported he had a very serious/strenuous face on, i think he dodged a bullet their, if he was one foot closer he would be dead.


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## muishot (Jun 9, 2011)

Cocoa said:


> That fight only provides proof of Minato's reaction time. It does not provide any relevant information on his combat speed or his reflexes.
> 
> Minato planned on using teleportation before he even fought them. So whether or not he reacted to Raikage with his own speed is irrelevant since he never planned on using it to begin with. So this neither proves that Minato or Raikage have faster combat speed or reflexes than the other. Also, reaction time =/= reflexes. Since reflexes are combat speed + reaction time. (In my opinion anyway)



I don't know how you can sit there and say with a straight face that Minato movement speed and his reflexes are not at least as fast as the Raikage.  

Let me tell you how many movements he makes before the Raikage can even move again after that initial punch.

1) He drops the kunai when A is about to hit him.  That is movement #1

2) He then teleports back and grabs the Kunai that he purposely drops before.  That is movement number 2 

3) Then with the Kunai in hand, he is ready to stab the Raikage in the back.  That is movement number 3

4) He than has to dodge Bee tentacle attack.  That is movement number 4

5) Then he cuts Bee's tentacle.  That is movement number 5.

The movements I am referring to here are not teleportation.  They are:

1) drop the kunai
2) grab the kunai
3) ready to kill the Raikage with the kunai
4) dodge Bee attack
5) attack Bee.

He completes those movements before A could reacts.  Now tell me who is faster.  Hairaishin is only supplementary.  It is only complement to his fighting tactic - nothing more and nothing less.



RumbleKing Yoshitsune said:


> I don't count Teleportation stuff as Speed, its teleportation.
> 
> So the Raikage is faster, but Minato still wins because he can Teleport.
> 
> ...



That wasn't a shock face.  The shock faces are the ones where the other Konoha's ninja see the eight tails.  He wasn't looking shock at all.  Those panels if anything show that he sees the attack coming and ready and actually baiting the Raikage.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 9, 2011)

muishot said:


> I don't know how you can sit there and say with a straight face that Minato movement speed and his reflexes are not at least as fast as the Raikage.
> 
> Let me tell you how many movements he makes before the Raikage can even move again after that initial punch.
> 
> ...



No its what makes Minato the yellow flash and the formidable opponent that he is, without it he is barley Low-Kage level. 

If Minato did not use FTG or if he did not have the top level reflexes that he does, the Raikage would of smashed his head in.


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## Csdabest (Jun 9, 2011)

So it was hirashin. Raikage is faster without spacetime involved. Raikage had no idea he was against spacetime. Ad I'm guessing raikage didn't have V2 back then. Juding by the look at it. Seeing how he jacked his speed up with bijuu level chakra. Lol hirashin is just hax. Lol. And damn kishi couldn't you limit how many kunais minato had. He can just spam. Sweet jesus. Ohwell what's done is done.


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## Cocoa (Jun 9, 2011)

muishot said:


> I don't know how you can sit there and say with a straight face that Minato movement speed and his reflexes are not at least as fast as the Raikage.



*Did you even read what I said? I never said Raikage or Minato were faster than each other. I said their speed is irrelevant. You need to read my posts better before responding to them. (just some friendly advice)
*



muishot said:


> Let me tell you how many movements he makes before the Raikage can even move again after that initial punch.
> 
> 1) He drops the kunai when A is about to hit him.  That is movement #1



*That is not movement. He teleported without taking the kunai. *



muishot said:


> 2) He then teleports back and grabs the Kunai that he purposely drops before.  That is movement number 2



*Okay that did happen, but what relevance does that have? None. It does not disprove anything I typed. How is Raikage supposed to react to Minato teleporting behind him? Even if he had faster reflexes and movement speed he would not be able to react in time. Thus your point is invalid.
*



muishot said:


> 3) Then with the Kunai in hand, he is ready to stab the Raikage in the back.  That is movement number 3



*Okay. Raikage did not even know that Minato was behind him so once again your point is invalid.*



muishot said:


> 4) He than has to dodge Bee tentacle attack.  That is movement number 4



*You are still seeming to miss the point I made. The fact that he dodged Killer Bee's tentacle does not even support your original claim. Try again. *



muishot said:


> 5) Then he cuts Bee's tentacle.  That is movement number 5.



*Still missing the entire point. This still does not prove Minato>Raikage in speed. This is against Killer Bee who claims he was just getting started. Try again.*



muishot said:


> The movements I am referring to here are not teleportation.  They are:
> 
> 1) drop the kunai
> 2) grab the kunai
> ...



*I already proved that these points are irrelevant.*



muishot said:


> He completes those movements before A could reacts.  Now tell me who is faster.  Hairaishin is only supplementary.  It is only complement to his fighting tactic - nothing more and nothing less.



*Like I said before...it does not prove one person is faster than the other. Thus it is inconclusive as of this moment.*


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## Sphere (Jun 9, 2011)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> The character bias in this thread is jawdropping. Look here: Link removed In V1 Raikage's hair does not stand up. In V2, Link removed Raikage's hair stands up. Link removed In the bottom right panel Raikage's hair is obviously standing up, the only reason all of his hair didn't stand up is because he had a forehead protector on. Raikage was in V2 and was completely outclassed by Minato.


Pretty much this. And Raikage also exclaimed "hmph" (bottom right panel), like he did when he powered up his shroud against Sasuke. His hair also flew up. Kishi couldn't have made it clearer that Raikage was using "v2", his full speed. Anyone claiming that Raikage "developed v2" after his battles with Minato is in denial.


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## MinatoEMS (Jun 9, 2011)

FitzChivalry said:


> Translation: "He used his signature technique to beat the other guy who used his signature technique. So without his signature technique..."
> 
> That is a weak-ass argument, sorry.



/thread

pretty much sums it up...

raikage has already stated his inferiority in speed to minato, and as we saw minatos reflexes are enough to avoid attacks from raikage and his  hirashin won him the fight...


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## 0ne Winged Angel (Jun 9, 2011)

The thing is, speed is pretty arbitrary in the Naruto world. Itachi has this reputation as a "speed demon" and while he isn't slow by any stretch, his real speed feats are with his seals. 

Speed in Naruto encompasses:
-Movement speed
-Reaction speed
-Seal speed
-Shunshin (jutsu) speed

It has a large amount of possibilities of what it can be. If you include all of that under speed, Minato (thanks to FTG) is leagues ahead of anyone else in the Naruto verse other than perhaps Madara.

Based on feats alone there is not a single person in the Naruto verse that has a reasonable chance of actually going 1 on 1 with Minato and *winning*, and this is all thanks to Minato's "speed".

Last chapter I assumed as many did that Raikage was referring to Minato's actual speed, but after this chapter it's very clear that when A is speaking about speed he's including the whole package. So based on what the manga is saying speed is, Minato is very clearly far above everyone else, however what I took from this chapter is that A clearly has the fastest movement/shunshin speed, while Minato clearly has the fastest Reaction/Jutsu speed (hiraishin).

Another way of looking at it would be Actual speed vs Effective speed. A has the higher actual speed, but Minato has the faster effective speed. It's kind of like in martial arts, you know your opponent has a reach of X inches, but if that person also has the ability to make a very quick lunge/hop of 2 feet, that person now has an effective range of 24+X because you have to consider that they could feint, drop out of your attack range and then quickly lunge in using their long reach + lunge/hop to land an attack you can't counter properly.

Also, to the people debating reflexes vs reaction: They're too closely related, you can't have good reaction and poor reflexes or good reflexes and poor reaction, they're entirely dependent on each other. Reaction would be the time it takes your brain to process something is happening, reflexes would be the time it takes your body to actually move once it realizes something is happening.

Unless you're horribly out of shape (which doesn't at all apply to anyone in Naruto) the second your brain realizes it needs to move/dodge/attack your body begins moving. Conversely if your body begins moving quickly it means your brain has perceive what's happening whether you are conscious of it or not.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 9, 2011)

now that my thread got closed, let me restate myself here. This chapter disproved the last weeks belief that Minato had better reaction and body/shunshin speed than A. As we clearly saw Minato barely reacted to  A's blitz(was it even V2?) and was able to get away via hirashin.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 9, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> now that my thread got closed(thanks derailer minato tards) let me restate myself here. This chapter disproved the last weeks belief that Minato had better reaction and body/shunshin speed than A. As we clearly saw Minato barely reacted to  A's blitz(was it even V2?) and was able to get away via hirashin.



Barely reacted? He set up a counterattack just before teleporting away. He would have been successful if not for Bee.


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## ashher (Jun 9, 2011)

^ when will this stupidity stop? Minato uses S/T to speed up. And he is the fastest. He does it by using S/T doesn't take away anything from him, anymore than using raiton shroud does from raikage, or using sharingan for uchiha. Also minato's reaction was great in this chapter, he was able to react to A's attack...something which took a MS for sasuke to react to and minato did it with his plain eyes. That's highly impressive, just like the time he saved kakashi. I think due to his high-speed S/T, his reflexes got tuned up enough to have such reaction.


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## Opuni (Jun 9, 2011)

Raikage himself called it his full speed and yet ppl want to undermine minato, do y'all hate him that much?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 9, 2011)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> Barely reacted? He set up a counterattack just before teleporting away. He would have been successful if not for Bee.


 The surprised expression and frown later on kinda suggest that he was blitzed. Kishimoto tried pretty hard to establish that minato was able to escape when A's fist was a single milimeter away from his face. Also bee did what ? And oh fyi sasuke did the exact same thing.


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## 0ne Winged Angel (Jun 9, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The surprised expression and frown later on kinda suggest that he was blitzed. Kishimoto tried pretty hard to establish that minato was able to escape when A's fist was a single milimeter away from his face. Also bee did what ? And oh fyi sasuke did the exact same thing.



You are sort of correct. Minato did in fact barely have any time to react at all, and had he been even a millisecond slower raikage would have ended him outright. Minato was indeed surprised at just how fast A was. 

But here's the thing about top tiers; Even a millimeter gap in power can be an impassable barrier. Take a moment to think about it honestly; They've both reached the peak of their capabilities (for that point in time), so it's not possible for them to just easily get stronger. So that minuscule difference in power will not change no matter how many times they fight. Raikage knew this and admitted he was inferior.

A is, in my book still incredibly powerful and demands a lot of respect for how powerful he's become also without a bloodline/bijuu. He is however, not able to match up to Minato. Close yes, very close, but he's not there and infront of FTG or another S/T no amount of speed is going to change that, because for all the speed/reaction time you have, there is nothing faster than instant.

People act like when I or others claim that even top tiers cannot beat Minato that we are just fan wanking, when in reality it's just how the manga has portrayed the character. He isn't going to be coming back at any point, except maybe in flashbacks so it doesn't really matter. 

I believe there's a very good reason Kishi started the story with the death of Minato and never let him be apart of the active story. While I do enjoy discussing character feats and such, it's just getting old that everyone is trying to downplay Minato like "he HAD to use FTG to win" that's like claiming a sniper HAD to use a bullet to kill his target from 1000m away...no shit, it's what you've trained and practiced to do. 

To put it better it should be said that FTG is what made him so feared, so if you cannot get around it, then don't bother trying to fight with Minato. He still had to design and create the jutsu and then perfect it, give the man the credit he's due and let the pointless retarded claims like "A is clearly faster!" end. In a manner of speaking he is, but he is not faster based on what *this manga* has defined speed as, and that's really the only definition that matters. No one will ever be faster (except maybe Naruto if he gets his own S/T), not to say no one will ever be better or able to win, but no one will ever be faster, again, *based on this manga's parameters for defining speed*.


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## Unknown (Jun 9, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> now that my thread got closed(thanks derailer minato tards) let me restate myself here. This chapter disproved the last weeks belief that Minato had better reaction and body/shunshin speed than A. As we clearly saw Minato barely reacted to  A's blitz(was it even V2?) and was able to get away via hirashin.



Yeeees, because It's not like Minato could have teleported any moment he wanted, but he choose to dodge in the last moment to make A loose his balance and make a perfect counter, like he already showed with Madara... 

You really think that Minato can barely see the punch, but then in an instant, while A is still in punching motion, without balance, Minato suddenly gains a lot of speed and is able to turn back, loock at A, teleport back, take a Kunai, take position to slash him, and makes the slash motion in the time before A could ra gain his balance?


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## Hitt (Jun 9, 2011)

Oh heavens Christ.

Now I don't know which brings up more lameass wank in these boards.  Pairings, or speed debates.


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## Summers (Jun 9, 2011)

Hitt said:


> Oh heavens Christ.
> 
> Now I don't know which brings up more lameass wank in these boards.  Pairings, or speed debates.



Still pairings. speed debates are based on something, feats and statements.
pairings boil down to bashing the woman.

It gets bad when its like last week when folks make countless threads on the same thing. The Mods have thankfully decided to merge or close related threads.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 9, 2011)

Unknown said:


> Yeeees, because It's not like Minato could have teleported any moment he wanted, but he choose to dodge in the last moment to make A loose his balance and make a perfect counter, like he already showed with Madara...


First off madara's movement speed isn't on the same level with A so you can't compare the two instances. Also thinking that minato could have dodged any time he wanted is simply being delusional. Minato froze in place and barely reacted and would be dead if he didnt have priorly set kunais.


> You really think that Minato can barely see the punch, but then in an instant, while A is still in punching motion, without balance, Minato suddenly gains a lot of speed and is able to turn back, loock at A, teleport back, take a Kunai, take position to slash him, and makes the slash motion in the time before A could ra gain his balance?


Thats what happened. He barely reacted to it supporting C's prior statement of A's reaction speed being better with the raiton shroud. Sasuke was also blitzed by A but he still could raise the amaterasu shield at the last second.


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## Unknown (Jun 9, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> First off madara's movement speed isn't on the same level with A so you can't compare the two instances. Also thinking that minato could have dodged any time he wanted is simply being delusional. Minato froze in place and barely reacted and would be dead if he didnt have priorly set kunais.
> 
> Thats what happened. He barely reacted to it supporting C's prior statement of A's reaction speed being better with the raiton shroud. Sasuke was also blitzed by A but he still could raise the amaterasu shield at the last second.



Madara is supposed to have even greater reflex than A, so I compare it.


Barely reacted? You mean that he wasn't surprised when A's punch was near his face? Yeah, because he already knew that. He didn't react in the last moment, he wasn't surprised in the panel where A's punch is about to hit him, because he already saw him coming, and he just waited till the moment when if he dodged, A wouldn't react in time, and would lose his balance.

till that moment he was like froze, remaining calm without moving at all.

Sasuke did not react to A, that's why he use the Amaterasu on the Susanoo. As karin said, It doens't matter if Sasuke can't react to A as long as he has a defense.


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## Corax (Jun 9, 2011)

> Madara is supposed to have even greater reflex than A, so I compare it.


Cool story. This is why he wasnt able to absorb Konan s explosion in time. By feats and hype A's reaction must be faster.


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## Bart (Jun 9, 2011)

One reason why I firmly don't believe for one instant that Yondaime Raikage used _Shunshin_ coupled with his _Raiton Shroud_ isbecause there was no mention of him increasing his Chakra, as was commented on when he did such a thing to dodge _Amaterasu_.

Nor any indication of it whatsoever :WOW


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## Unknown (Jun 9, 2011)

Corax said:


> Cool story. This is why he wasnt able to absorb Konan s explosion in time. By feats and hype A's reaction must be faster.



Sharingan has movement prediction, of course It gives the user greater reactions.

Minato was able to surpass Madara reaction speed, and he has been able to wait till A was so close to him that when he dodged A couldn't stop his punch.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 9, 2011)

Unknown said:


> Madara is supposed to have even greater reflex than A, so I compare it.


when did Madara ever get praised for his speed ? OR when did such a comparison came up ?
Stop making shit up son.



> Barely reacted? You mean that he wasn't surprised when A's punch was near his face?


he was surprised. He looked like a blind man trying to feel his environment, because guess what ? He got blitzed.



> Yeah, because he already knew that. He didn't react in the last moment, he wasn't surprised in the panel where A's punch is about to hit him, because he already saw him coming, and he just waited till the moment when if he dodged, A wouldn't react in time, and would lose his balance.


Well A moved straight him so he eventually saw A. But he couldn't react till the last moment.



> till that moment he was like froze, remaining calm without moving at all.




He didn't look calm at all. He was frowning a second later. 
The only expression on his face was surprise.




> Sasuke did not react to A, that's why he use the Amaterasu on the Susanoo. As karin said, It doens't matter if Sasuke can't react to A as long as he has a defense.



IF he hadn't been able to raise Amaterasu shield in time then you could claim that he wasn't able to react. But he did. Minato did the same thing.


Anyway, your wanking aside, this isn't the point I am trying to prove.

I am only pointing out the flaw that people thought Minato was faster than RAikage body/reaction speed wise based on Raikage's remark last chapter. This chapter disproved that logic and has shown that Minato couldn't react to A physically.


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## HawkMan (Jun 9, 2011)

Hey guys, just want to let you know that Minato is faster than Raikage without Hiraishin. Notice how Raikage calls his jutsu "shunshin", that means it's not Hiriashin. Meaning Minato is so fast it looks like he's teleporting, because he's Minato.

Plus, he gives me a hard on.


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## Gilgamesh (Jun 9, 2011)

What the fuck is V2?

Some silly fan made term?


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## Unknown (Jun 9, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> when did Madara ever get praised for his speed ? OR when did such a comparison came up ?
> Stop making shit up son.
> 
> he was surprised. He looked like a blind man trying to feel his environment, because guess what ? He got blitzed.
> ...




Madara's sharingan has been stated to be the best one. Only Sasuke's has been said to be able to surpass it.
So Madara's reaction speed should be the best one.

No, he looked concentrated, waiting for his chances, he didn't make any surprise sign "!".

No, he saw him from the start.

No his expression was of concentration.

A didn't even attack Sasuke the moment he boost up his chakra and speed, he gave Sasuke time.

Minato dodged A's attack, looked back to where A was, teleported back and was about slash him, before A could react.


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## Yuna (Jun 9, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> now that my thread got closed(thanks derailer minato tards) let me restate myself here. This chapter disproved the last weeks belief that Minato had better reaction and body/shunshin speed than A. As we clearly saw Minato barely reacted to  A's blitz(was it even V2?) and was able to get away via hirashin.


Yes, because being able to react to *teleportation Jutsu* proves you're slow.

And because he didn't use Shunshin and instead used the superior Hiraishin, it must mean his Shunshin is slow.


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## Bart (Jun 9, 2011)

_Hirashin_ faster than _Raiton Shroud_, maybe 

But _Hirashin_ faster than _Raiton Shroud_ + _Shunshin_? 
That's another matter entirely 

I still want to know who was older out of the two and by how much, as that does make a huge amount of difference; and also which technique was created the most recent. For all we know _Yondaime Raikage_ could have furthered Raiton Shroud since that encounter, as clearly there's a difference between it then and let's say when it was used against Sasuke 

It's a bit like Lee of Part I, if I do say so, who was faster than Sasuke of Part I, but now as of Part II it's a debatable change given what we've seen of Sasuke's progression :WOW


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## tari101190 (Jun 9, 2011)

Hraishin is space/time teleportation jutsu. No speed feat will be greater than teleporting.

Minato is 'faster' than A due to Hiraishin an nothing more.

I'm sure Minato is physically very fast, with high running speeds as well as fast reflexes and a fast Shunshin jutsu. Although A outclasses Minato in all those areas when using his Raiton Shroud. Minato is only 'faster' when using Hiraishin.

Without using a Chakra or a Jutsu to enhance yourself, there will be a peak human speed, so without Hiraishin Minato cannot be faster than A's Raiton Shroud.


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## Yuna (Jun 9, 2011)

tari101190 said:


> Without using a Chakra or a Jutsu to enhance yourself, there will be a peak human speed, so without Hiraishin Minato cannot be faster than A's Raiton Shroud.


You state that as fact when we've never actually seen Minato's Shunshin and normal movement speed when compared to A's.

"Well, he used Hiraishin against A" is a stupid argument because Hiraishin is superior to normal movement and Shunshin. Why *would* he not use it? It doesn't automatically mean that his Shunshin and normal movement is inferior to A's.


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## tari101190 (Jun 9, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> You state that as fact when we've never actually seen Minato's Shunshin and normal movement speed when compared to A's.


exactly. it is all we can assume as fact unless stated otherwise or we learn something else about his movement speed.



FallenAngelII said:


> You "Well, he used Hiraishin against A" is a stupid argument...


nobody said this except for you right now.



FallenAngelII said:


> ...because Hiraishin is superior to normal movement and Shunshin..


so you're saying hiraishin is superior to all movement like i just said? ok.



FallenAngelII said:


> Why *would* he not use it? It doesn't automatically mean that his Shunshin and normal movement is inferior to A's.


you are not making any sense. you just said hiraishin is faster than all movements. therfore you're saying it's faster than both a's and minato's movements. 

if minato is already faster than someone like a, why would he need to develop hiraishin at all? afterall this time, all we know about minato's speed is that he has hiraishin to be the fastest. after al this time that is the only fact we know. assuming he's got other methods to also be the fastest is pure fantasy. i only base things off of what we currently know.

all we know and have seen is that hiraishin is faster than all movements, minato uses hiraishin, and that minato is called the fastest. thats all we know. so it's safe to assume that minato is the fastest due to hiraishin. we don't know anything else right now so that's all we can assume without making up stuff. that is a logical sound reason for assuming minato is faster only due to hiraishin. since we have nothing else to base it on.

if you want to hope and dream minato has another super secret jutsu which makes him faster than a besides hiraishin, you can do that and post theories or fanfiction elsewhere. until it's revealed in the manga, i have no reason to discuss or think about that.


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## ? (Jun 9, 2011)

People saying Minato barely reacted have no proof of this.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jun 9, 2011)

Inu said:


> People saying Minato barely reacted have no proof of this.



Minato's plan was to take Raikage off-guard by surprise since he heard of his speed , so for this plan to work he had to teleport at the last second which will leaves Raikage vulnerable for a split second , and that's what Minato counted on , but Bee's intervention foiled the plan.

he almost 2 paneled Raikage with ease.


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## Melas (Jun 9, 2011)

tari101190 said:


> if minato is already faster than someone like a, why would he need to develop hiraishin at all?



Did you just compare mere speed to a S/T jutsu?

Is it your contention that _if_ Minato was faster than A without hiraishin, he should have not worked on a S/T jutsu?

Please consider the efficacy of A's speed against Madara or Kyuubi's chakra cannon ball.


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## supersaiyan146 (Jun 9, 2011)

tari101190 said:


> if minato is already faster than someone like a, *why would he need to develop hiraishin at all? *afterall this time, all we know about minato's speed is that he has hiraishin to be the fastest. after al this time that is the only fact we know. assuming he's got other methods to also be the fastest is pure fantasy. i only base things off of what we currently know.



LOLwut ? 

You do know about Hirashin right ?

That he could teleport to safety when faced with near death situation ?

That he could save others ?

That he could use his S/T barrier in conjunction?


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## ? (Jun 9, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> Minato's plan was to take Raikage off-guard by surprise since he heard of his speed , so for this plan to work he had to teleport at the last second which will leaves Raikage vulnerable for a split second , and that's what Minato counted on , but Bee's intervention foiled the plan.
> 
> he almost 2 paneled Raikage with ease.


That's exactly how I saw it. If he teleported any sooner, how would the stategy he used against Ei work? It only makes sense that he waited until Ei was right in his face.


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## supersaiyan146 (Jun 9, 2011)

Inu said:


> That's exactly how I saw it. If he teleported any sooner, how would the stategy he used against Ei work? It only makes sense that he waited until Ei was right in his face.


 
Plus he had enough time to launch the kunai in to the air and was on to A in a flash .


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## Cold (Jun 9, 2011)

I can't believe this.

It's damn near the same thing that Sasuke fanatics did when he fought Bee.

It's not enough that Minato is clearly stated to be the fastest, and it's not enough that Minato DID use hirashin against Raikage's raiton shroud, which currently makes Raikage the fastest shinobi in the world, who can even do stuff like completely evade amaterasu.  Since some people don't want to give up the idea that Minato without hirashin is faster than A, now we must debate "just because Minato used hirashin against A doesn't mean he's normal movement speed and shushin is inferior to A's".


Are you serious?

Raiakge is that fast because of a jutsu.  Gai is as fast as he is because of gates.  Uchiha's were fast because they could predict movements with sharingan and take advantage.  Naruto has modes that greatly enhance his chakra to boost his shunshin.

Everyone has a trick to go beyond their normal movement speed, but some Minato fans are claiming that Minato may be faster than the second fastest guy in the world, second only to him, with his normal movement speed.

Fucking forums.


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## Trent (Jun 9, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> Minato's plan was to take Raikage off-guard by surprise since he heard of his speed , so for this plan to work he had to teleport at the last second which will leaves Raikage vulnerable for a split second , and that's what Minato counted on , but Bee's intervention foiled the plan.
> 
> he almost 2 paneled Raikage with ease.



Or more simply, Minato prepared for the imminent encounter versus known elite nins by setting up the battleground to allow him to use his Hiraishin like he was shown to do in the Kakashi gaiden.

Then Raikage suddenly went for the Raiton Armor suckerpunch and Minato *visibly *had no time to try avoiding the incoming blow by moving away so he immediately used Hiraishin and thanks to it could avoid before having his face punched in at the very last instant.

That's what we were shown on the pages of this chapter.

Quite impressively he had the presence of mind to let go of the kunai he was holding to be able to use it as a point of return for Hiraishin for his following counterattack. That was quite badass I say.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jun 9, 2011)

Trent said:


> Or more simply, Minato prepared for the imminent encounter versus known elite nins by setting up the battleground to allow him to use his Hiraishin like he was shown to do in the Kakashi gaiden.
> 
> Then Raikage suddenly went for the Raiton Armor suckerpunch and Minato *visibly *had no time to try avoiding the incoming blow by moving away so he immediately used Hiraishin and thanks to it could avoid before having his face punched in at the very last instant.
> 
> ...



you would be correct if Minato didnt do this tactic twice , but Minato against Madara waited till Madara touched him and teleported at the last second which was his plan from start to catch Madara off-guard like he did in thsi chapter with Raikage.

so this tactic is not new for to say Minato had no time to react , it was his plan all along hence he left Kunai bahind which further proves he planned it all along.


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## Yuna (Jun 9, 2011)

tari101190 said:


> exactly. it is all we can assume as fact unless stated otherwise or we learn something else about his movement speed.


"I'm speculating my ass off!"



tari101190 said:


> nobody said this except for you right now.


You just did in this very post...



tari101190 said:


> if minato is already faster than someone like a, why would he need to develop hiraishin at all?


That's the stupidest argument I've ever heard. "Hey, you're totally fast already. No need to try to get faster!".

Also, Hiraishin can be used to fight multiple people at the same time.



tari101190 said:


> afterall this time, all we know about minato's speed is that he has hiraishin to be the fastest. after al this time that is the only fact we know. assuming he's got other methods to also be the fastest is pure fantasy. i only base things off of what we currently know.


Yet we *do not know* how fast his Shunshin and normal  movement speed it, yet you act as if we do.



tari101190 said:


> until it's revealed in the manga, i have no reason to discuss or think about that.


Except you totally just claimed that Minato invented Shunshin because he can't match A's V2 speed otherwise!



Kagami8 said:


> he can't even dodge V1 Raikage's attack without Hirashin


1) V2
2) Says who? He didn't just dodge the attack. He dodged it and set up a counter-attack. And he did it efficiently. Why use an inferior less precise movement type, like Shunshin or simple movement when you can Hiraishin?


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## mayumi (Jun 9, 2011)

we still have one more chapter of flashback to go next week with raikage/bee vs minato hokage. can't wait to see the repeat of this thread again. only this time we might see minato's rasengan doing damage to the raiton armor or something else.


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## icedemon1099 (Jun 9, 2011)

okay like what is the debate here

speed is movement over time
if you are moving instantaneously across space time
that means you are travelling across a fold in time itself
you are travelling any given distance at zero time

minato is over all faster
k?


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## Bart (Jun 9, 2011)

Still you'd have assumed that _Ē_ would have taken _Hiraishin_ as a template to create something else entirely, as Minato created _Rasengan_ based on what he saw from Bee.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 9, 2011)

Since when was E a genius


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## Bart (Jun 9, 2011)

Since he developed arguably one of the most intriguing forms of Ninjutsu we've seen yet to see in the Naruto Universe :3


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 9, 2011)

Unknown said:


> Madara's sharingan has been stated to be the best one. Only Sasuke's has been said to be able to surpass it.
> So Madara's reaction speed should be the best one.



You don't even know what you are talking about now do you ? 
I am not going to lecture you about the basics, you go re-read the whole damn manga.



> No, he looked concentrated, waiting for his chances, he didn't make any surprise sign "!".



no, he is even looking in the other direction @ start. He didn't see Raikage was about to chop him in half till the last second.


> No, he saw him from the start.
> 
> No his expression was of concentration.



No. 



> A didn't even attack Sasuke the moment he boost up his chakra and speed, he gave Sasuke time.


After he charged up his chakra(which he didn't do against Minato), Sasuke lost sight of A. Then he reacted via raising up the Amaterasu shield.



> Minato dodged A's attack, looked back to where A was, teleported back and was about slash him, before A could react.


Yes thats what happened. It is irrelevant to what I am saying though.




FallenAngelII said:


> Yes, because being able to react to *teleportation Jutsu* proves you're slow.


I didn't understand what you are trying to say here. 



> And because he didn't use Shunshin and instead used the superior Hiraishin, it must mean his Shunshin is slow.


He was in no position to use Shunshin. He saw Raikage's fist when it was 1 milimeter away from his face and hirashin was the only option. 

Are you really trying to suggest that he could have dodged without hirashin but he chose not to ?


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 9, 2011)

What do people not get about "full speed"


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## Namikaze Minato (Jun 9, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> What do people not get about "full speed"



it's not only Full Speed.

the "hes fastest man alive"

also why Madara reacted to Raikage and couldnt react to Minato.


and...........etc

Manga is full of examples , its our choice if we take what the author said through the manga or not.


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## Sphere (Jun 9, 2011)

A lot of people are seem to think Minato could only react after Raikage's fist had come within a millimeter of his face. People need to read the manga more carefully. 
Minato's plan was to get that kunai behind Raikage, so that he could teleport back to it and catch Raikage off guard. If Minato had teleported too soon, Raikage would've immidiately stopped in his tracks, and Minato's plan would've failed. He had to WAIT just for the right moment, when Raikage was right in front of him. After he teleported, Raikage sped past Minato's kunai before stoppong. Thus he left himself open to Minato's attack.

Link removed

What actually happened - 
1. Top panel. Minato WAITED until Raikage's fist was inches from his face.
2. Minato THREW UP the kunai, thus setting up his counterattack. But by then Raikage's fist had moved to within a millimeter of his face. (bottom right panel)
3. Minato teleported away. Raikage stopped. Minato's kunai (which he had thrown up earlier), was now level with Raikage's shoulder, and behind him. (bottom left panel)
4. Minato teleported back to his kunai, above Raikage. And then Bee intervened, saving Raikage from being ignonimously two-panelled.

Minato's counterattack wouldn't have worked if he hadn't waited for Raikage to come close before teleporting. If Minato had teleported immediately after seeing Raikage move, then Raikage would've immediately stopped in his tracks, and Minato wouldn't have been able to get that kunai behind Raikage. Hence, he WAITED until Raikage was right before him.

...Minato pretty much schooled Raikage. He waited for Raikage to get close, then he threw up the kunai and teleported away, all before Raikage's fist had moved more than a few inches. And Raikage was using v2. 
Then Minato teleported back, caught Raikage off guard, and would've two panelled him if Bee hadn't intervened.


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## BlueSky Rena (Jun 9, 2011)

Marsala said:


> Of course, you have to have top-class reflexes to use Hiraishin effectively in battle, especially against other speed demons like A.



Even Madara got owned with Hiraishin


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 9, 2011)

Bart said:


> Since he developed arguably one of the most intriguing forms of Ninjutsu we've seen yet to see in the Naruto Universe :3



Guess he wasnt as genius as Minato


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## joshhookway (Jun 9, 2011)

4th basically rapes A in this chapter


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jun 9, 2011)

joshhookway said:


> 4th basically rapes A in this chapter



Yes, because Minato sure did, manage to harm Raikage severely this chapter.


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## Puppetry (Jun 9, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> also why Madara reacted to Raikage and couldnt react to Minato.



Hiraishin is the only thing Madara was unable to react to, so I don't see your point. Everyone is well aware that a Hiraishin Minato is superior.


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## Klue (Jun 9, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Yes, because Minato sure did, manage to harm Raikage severely this chapter.



A has B to thank.


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## Mistshadow (Jun 9, 2011)

Bart said:


> _Hirashin_ faster than _Raiton Shroud_, maybe
> 
> But _Hirashin_ faster than _Raiton Shroud_ + _Shunshin_?
> That's another matter entirely
> ...



Raikage was older because he's about the age of the sannin while minato is a pupil of a sannin


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## machiavelli2009 (Jun 9, 2011)

there is nothing like v2.  
what i think happened, is minato left the kunai he had in hand. Then he teleported. 
during that time A had barely been able to complete his punch, and the kunai minato left hadn't move from its initial position because nearly no time had passed. 
The kunai is now behind A by the time he completes the punch because he thrust himself at minato. 
Minato was smart, and A used the only tactic he has.


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## Cocoa (Jun 9, 2011)

This will be a list that counts the feats shown with Raikage vs Minato and displays the outcome.

Movement speed: inconclusive
Battle speed: inconclusive
Reflexes: inconclusive
Reaction time: inconclusive

Logically we cannot say Minato > Raikage in speed because of words. That is not a feat, that is just a hollow statement until facts are presented.

Minato does beat Raikage with his teleporting, but teleporting does not count in the speed argument.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jun 9, 2011)

Cocoa said:


> This will be a list that counts the feats shown with Raikage vs Minato and displays the outcome.
> 
> Movement speed: inconclusive
> Battle speed: inconclusive
> ...



Dude , Minato here did same plan he did against Madara , waiting till last possible second , then teleporting and doing a counter-attack , that counter attack wouldnt have worked unless Minato had advantage over Raikage in movement and battle speed and reflexes and reaction time.


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## Cocoa (Jun 9, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> Dude , Minato here did same plan he did against Madara , waiting till last possible second , then teleporting and doing a counter-attack , that counter attack wouldnt have worked unless Minato had advantage over Raikage in movement and battle speed and reflexes and reaction time.



Quite untrue. Teleporting only requires reaction time. So this is only a reaction time feat. Teleporting never uses movement speed or battle speed since he is teleporting not moving with his own muscles. Also, reflexes = moving your body he did not have to move his body he teleported. Minato activates the teleportation with his thoughts. 

Reaction time = the time at which your mind processes something.

The only time Minato used his own muscles to move was when he grabbed the kunai and then tried to stab Raikage in the back. Neither of those are useful in debating this topic though.

Also, that does not even prove that his reaction time is better than Raikage. You cannot react to someone teleporting. You also cannot tell me that Raikage has to react to Minato teleporting behind him to prove that he is equal to Minato's reaction time. Thus all four categories are inconclusive. Do not take offense to this, but I wish you read my post before you post baseless claims without facts.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jun 9, 2011)

Cocoa said:


> Quite untrue. Teleporting only requires reaction time. So this is only a reaction time feat. Teleporting never uses movement speed or battle speed since he is teleporting not moving with his own muscles. Also, reflexes = moving your body he did not have to move his body he teleported. Minato activates the teleportation with his thoughts.
> 
> Reaction time = the time at which your mind processes something.
> 
> ...



i didnt post baseless claims w/o facts , however you did when you said Minato activates Hirashin with his thoughts when it was never stated in the manga nor DB that Hirashin is activated with person's thoughts.

Minato threw Kunai behind Raikage's back whcih further proves he wanted to teleport when Raikage's really close from hitting him so he can get him off guard and it worked.

Minato did basically 3 moves and 4th would've been the cut that would've killed Raikage while Raiakge was still in punch mode , if that doesnt mean Minato is superior in the categories you mentioned then nothing the author will show you of Minato will make you change your mind.


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## Dashido (Jun 9, 2011)

Why does this need a thread.....Raikage's Shunshin>>Minato's
Teleportation>>Raikage's Shunshin......

seriously...I have to read some of these later comments to see what the debate is about


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## Cocoa (Jun 9, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> i didnt post baseless claims w/o facts , however you did when you said Minato activates Hirashin with his thoughts when it was never stated in the manga nor DB that Hirashin is activated with person's thoughts.
> 
> Minato threw Kunai behind Raikage's back whcih further proves he wanted to teleport when Raikage's really close from hitting him so he can get him off guard and it worked.
> 
> Minato did basically 3 moves and 4th would've been the cut that would've killed Raikage while Raiakge was still in punch mode , if that doesnt mean Minato is superior in the categories you mentioned then nothing the author will show you of Minato will make you change your mind.



Since Minato did not move his body once before he teleported, that proves that he teleported by thinking about it. So then how does Madara use his intangibility or his teleporting? That's right with his thoughts. Everything you do is thought based only battle speed, movement speed, and reflexes require your body to keep up with your brain. Please post a scan that proves otherwise. If you cannot then I will take that as a concession.

Minato did not throw the Kunai... Look at the scan again. He merely teleported without it. That proves my point.

Teleporting does not display superiority in physical speed. It just shows superiority in transportation. I will agree that Minato > Raikage in transportation.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jun 9, 2011)

Cocoa said:


> Since Minato did not move his body once before he teleported, that proves that he teleported by thinking about it. So then how does Madara use his intangibility or his teleporting? That's right with his thoughts. Everything you do is thought based only battle speed, movement speed, and reflexes require your body to keep up with your brain. Please post a scan that proves otherwise. If you cannot then I will take that as a concession.
> 
> Minato did not throw the Kunai... Look at the scan again. He merely teleported without it. That proves my point.
> 
> Teleporting does not display superiority in physical speed. It just shows superiority in transportation. I will agree that Minato > Raikage in transportation.



the burden of proof is on you since your one claiming that Hirashin is activated by thinking and Hirashin is basically summoning , however i dont remember Jiraiya mentioning "thinking" to Naruto when he taught him how to summon  , so your claim is baseless since techniques in general require Chakra not "thinking"

and you dont know for sure that Minato didnt throw Kunai at Raikage.

and Raikage couldnt even turn his face to Minato while Minato was about to stab him.

and Raikage said "im fastest man alive now that the 4th hokage is dead"

this proves that Minato is above Raikage in all categories related to speed.

so i will take Raikage's words who fought Minato , over your word.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 9, 2011)

Cocoa said:


> This will be a list that counts the feats shown with Raikage vs Minato and displays the outcome.
> 
> Movement speed: inconclusive
> Battle speed: *Minato*
> ...



This chapter proved at least those two.


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## Mistshadow (Jun 9, 2011)

Sasukethe7thHokage said:


> Its been stated before Harishin does not need chakra thats based entirely on reverse summoning using seals this isnt like naruto learning to summon ether a blood contract and chakra to summon a animal hes summoning himself to differnt spots Instantly with no warning or sound were as animal summons ect show up in a few seconds and with a giant cloud of smoke



NO it hasn't, ALL jutsu require some amount of chakra, except for perhaps susanoo. We don't know how much, but the fact that its like summoning means it requires chakra. you summon something and make a handseal, you use chakra. he uses a handseal occasionally when performing hiraishin as seen in the madara fight.
On top of that he said it when he was teleporting the kyuubi with him that he needs a moment to gather enough chakra to move something that big. It tells you hiraishin is dependent on size for how much chakra required to activiate the move.


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## Sphere (Jun 10, 2011)

Cocoa said:


> Minato did not throw the Kunai... Look at the scan again. He merely teleported without it. That proves my point.


 

It's ironic that you're advising others to "look at the scan again"...
Link removed

The kunai is level with Minato's thigh in the top panel.
And in the bottom left panel, the kunai is level with Raikage's shoulder.

Care to explain? How did Minato's kunai move UP unless he had thrown it?

Fact of the matter is that Minato threw that kunai and teleported away, all before Raikage's fist had moved more than a few inches.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 10, 2011)

Sphere said:


> Link removed
> 
> The kunai is level with Minato's thigh in the top panel.
> And in the bottom left panel, the kunai is level with Raikage's shoulder.
> ...


You don't seem to be taking A's own movement into consideration. His punch is met with no resistance so his own speed and weight carry him forward and down as he attempts to catch himself.


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## naster (Jun 10, 2011)

Sphere said:


> A lot of people are seem to think Minato could only react after Raikage's fist had come within a millimeter of his face. People need to read the manga more carefully.
> Minato's plan was to get that kunai behind Raikage, so that he could teleport back to it and catch Raikage off guard. If Minato had teleported too soon, Raikage would've immidiately stopped in his tracks, and Minato's plan would've failed. He had to WAIT just for the right moment, when Raikage was right in front of him. After he teleported, Raikage sped past Minato's kunai before stoppong. Thus he left himself open to Minato's attack.
> 
> Link removed
> ...



Thanks for this great post. Earlier I tried to explain these panels to others, but I don't think I summarized/articulated my argument too well.

Side Note:
I doubt A would have been two paneled; berserkers don't give no shit about pain (or their arm for that matter)... although Minato did have a "don't fuck with me!" smirk on his face after teleporting to the tree. Also, the following attack with his kunai showed Minato meant business, if A were to continue fighting and/or pursue his team.


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## stevensr123 (Jun 10, 2011)

i don't see how one can even compare their speeds, one uses actually movment speed, which is increased via lightning chakra running through his body.'

another uses a instant space time technique that requires ZERO movement at all, apart from the fact you have to use prep in the sense he has to place a kunai in an area to transport to the said area.

raikage in terms of ACTUAL movement speed, is clearly faster, and minato with his space time technique can move to locations insantly which raikage or anyone else can not hope to do.


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## Mistshadow (Jun 10, 2011)

stevensr123 said:


> i don't see how one can even compare their speeds, one uses actually movment speed, which is increased via lightning chakra running through his body.'
> 
> another uses a instant space time technique that requires ZERO movement at all, apart from the fact you have to use prep in the sense he has to place a kunai in an area to transport to the said area.
> 
> raikage in terms of ACTUAL movement speed, is clearly faster, and minato with his space time technique can move to locations insantly which raikage or anyone else can not hope to do.



You cant say that though cuz as i said before. Minato didnt NEED to use actual movement. whats more convenient and better for battle, teleportation or movement? we don't know minato's movement speed compared to raikages. he didn't do it cuz he cant, he did it cuz of convenience.

so you cant say anything from this. we know minato's shunshin is fast, how fast compared to raikage? we dont know except that raikage said minato is faster than him in present day and that only NOW is he the fastest man alive after minato's death.


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## Cocoa (Jun 10, 2011)

Sphere said:


> It's ironic that you're advising others to "look at the scan again"...
> Link removed
> 
> The kunai is level with Minato's thigh in the top panel.
> ...


You say what I say is ironic and then you contradict yourself...funny.

Actually you are wrong. Raikage's punch was at an angle. He was basically punching toward the ground. Which means that eventually Minato's kunai would be in that exact area if Minato did not move it. If you look at the angle Raikage is punching then you would notice this. He is punching downward.  Thus your point is invalid. Try again please.

I can try to show the punch's trajectory with paint if you wish.


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## Sphere (Jun 10, 2011)

Shaidar Haran said:


> You don't seem to be taking A's own movement into consideration. His punch is met with no resistance so his own speed and weight carry him forward and down as he attempts to catch himself.


A was crouching when the kunai was level with his shoulder, but he was still on his feet. He's a big man, there's no way his shoulder was only ~3 feet above the ground.

If you still aren't convinced, and if you want to get technical, look at the next page, when Minato teleports back to his kunai.

Link removed

Top right panel. You can see that Minato's right leg is resting on Raikage's shoulder.

Middle panel. As you can see, Minato's right leg was several feet above the ground. Raikage's shoulder level > Minato's thigh level, that much is obvious.



Cocoa said:


> You say what I say is ironic and then you contradict yourself...funny.
> 
> Actually you are wrong. Raikage's punch was at an angle. He was basically punching toward the ground. *Which means that eventually Minato's kunai would be in that exact area if Minato did not move it.* If you look at the angle Raikage is punching then you would notice this. He is punching downward.  Thus your point is invalid. Try again please.
> 
> I can try to show the punch's trajectory with paint if you wish.


Wrong. See above. 




naster said:


> Side Note:
> I doubt A would have been two paneled; berserkers don't give no shit about pain (or their arm for that matter)... although Minato did have a "don't fuck with me!" smirk on his face after teleporting to the tree. Also, the following attack with his kunai showed Minato meant business, if A were to continue fighting and/or pursue his team.


The way he sliced Bee's tentacle... clearly he's imbuing the kunai with his elemental chakra, which aides cutting. Obviously it's not raiton, so we're left with wind, which is > Raikage's raiton armour.

Perhaps Raikage wouldn't have died, but he would've been badly hurt nonetheless. Though I don't think the gap between Minato and A was as big as it was made out to be; Raikage was as usual, too reckless but he probably learnt his lesson.


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## naster (Jun 10, 2011)

Cocoa said:


> You say what I say is ironic and then you contradict yourself...funny.
> 
> I can try to show the punch's trajectory with paint if you wish.



Please do. 

Clearly, Raikage would have to be doing super squats for his shoulder level to equal the height of Minato's thigh. I could see you being correct... if Raikage punched a crater into the ground.


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## stevensr123 (Jun 10, 2011)

Mistshadow said:


> You cant say that though cuz as i said before. Minato didnt NEED to use actual movement. whats more convenient and better for battle, teleportation or movement? we don't know minato's movement speed compared to raikages. he didn't do it cuz he cant, he did it cuz of convenience.
> 
> so you cant say anything from this. we know minato's shunshin is fast, how fast compared to raikage? we dont know except that raikage said minato is faster than him in present day and that only NOW is he the fastest man alive after minato's death.



which is my point, of course minato's technique is more convitant, but we are comparing movement speed are we not?

space time jutsu which requirers zero movement does not = movement speed.

we are comparing actual movement speed were a ninja actually fuckin moves his legs to get from point a to point b, are we not? and since raikage has shown greater feats than minato. at this point we can say raikage's movement speed > minato's.

however we can also say, no matter how fast you can move, minato's space time jutsu will always be better, because it is instant.


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## Syntaxis (Jun 10, 2011)

stevensr123 said:


> i don't see how one can even compare their speeds, one uses actually movment speed, which is increased via lightning chakra running through his body.'
> 
> another uses a instant space time technique that requires ZERO movement at all, apart from the fact you have to use prep in the sense he has to place a kunai in an area to transport to the said area.
> 
> raikage in terms of ACTUAL movement speed, is clearly faster, and minato with his space time technique can move to locations insantly which raikage or anyone else can not hope to do.



That depends on your definition of speed, really. Momentum? Raikage wins, probably. But crossing distances in the least amount of time? Minato, assuming he has a kunai at the destination.

In a 100-meter sprint I'd say Raikage would win.
In a 100-meter race* Minato wins, instantly.

* through whatever means, including kunai and teleporting jutsu's.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 10, 2011)

stevensr123 said:


> which is my point, of course minato's technique is more convitant, but we are comparing movement speed are we not?
> 
> space time jutsu which requirers zero movement does not = movement speed.
> 
> ...



Manga and Databook says Hirashin = Movement.

Either way I agree, Raikage is the fastest character in the manga without S/T tech.


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## Nakson (Jun 10, 2011)

NF will never change. useles arguements over facts already confirmed in the manga.

This is similar to the Kakashi: Naruto you have surpassed me.

Raikage: I'm the fastest shinobi alive, now that the fourth hokage has passed away.

So as far as Raikage is concerned Minato is faster than him. Why/how is  Minato faster? really isn't important anymore. That is his own way of being faster.

I mean you could say that Raikage is slower than Bee without his lightinig enhanced movements. but that would be stupid, no?


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## Khazzar (Jun 10, 2011)

So far,Minato is the fastest that ever lived. He was faster then Madara. Madara is miles faster then Sasuke due to space-time ninjutsu. He is also most likely able to shunshin just as fast,like Itachi and Sasuke.
Untill we see Naruto in his RSM,Minato is the fastest to date,Raikage is the viceroy of speed.


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## Angoobo (Jun 10, 2011)

Woow..
1. A said Minato was faster than him( i don't think he was speaking about teleportation which can make everyone look fast).
2. this chapter proves hiraishin>>>>>top speed Raikage( which should be common sense, since it's _teleportation_).

There is no indication  on Minato's peed compared to that of A, so i'm going by A's words( rather than some stupid people here) and say Minato is faster than Raikage....


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 10, 2011)

I guess we will find out if they fight when they are kages.


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## Bart (Jun 10, 2011)

Mistshadow said:


> Raikage was older because he's about the age of the sannin while minato is a pupil of a sannin



There's nothing to support Yondaime Raikage being the same age as the Sannin though


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## Mistshadow (Jun 10, 2011)

Bart said:


> There's nothing to support Yondaime Raikage being the same age as the Sannin though



EVERYTHING supports that..........

edit : 


Okay, Bee was 5 in the flashback of when he became a jinchuuriki, currently he is 35. so that dates us back to 30 years. Raikage was a veteran shinobi it would seem in his 18 min to early 20's AT THE VERY LEAST considering he had fully facial hair goatee and was adapt enough to be capable of cutting off a bijuu horn and in line to become raikage with his developed lightning shroud. so you add 30 to lets say 20, and you get 50. so he is approximately the same age as the sannin give or take a few years. 
Jiraiya and the sannin are 54 now.

would you really see jiraiya training an apprentice who is only 6 years younger than him? 
Every jounin-genin training team we have seen has had the teacher at around 14 years age difference.

I'm going to say minato may have been let's say 10 years younger than jiraiya and that gives him a 14 year difference with his apprentice kakashi making minato 44 now.

OR we can say there was a 14 year difference with jiraiye and a 10 year difference with kakashi making him 40 in current time which makes complete sense, I'm going to take a look at the kakashi gaiden to get more of a gauge on that again.

second edit: that seems to put kakashi at 13 in kakashi gaiden when he became a jounin and minato must have been around 23-27 during that war during which bee has grown up and mastered his biju partially at least, he looks like an adult and this is the same war keep in mind when they encountered so its however many years raikage still looks like the same adult he did when bee was 5 despite bee now being an adult.


so YES I'd say its confirmed raikage is older than minato and approximately sannin age if not a few years  older/younger. happy?


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## Bart (Jun 10, 2011)

Woah, a seriously awesome post ^


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## Mistshadow (Jun 10, 2011)

Bart said:


> Woah, a seriously awesome post ^



thank you man


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## Captain Fry (Jun 10, 2011)

600+ posts in here? damn...

I'll keep it simple, Minato can go from point A to point B faster than A or B


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## Bart (Jun 10, 2011)

Angelo said:


> Woow..
> 1. A said Minato was faster than him( i don't think he was speaking about teleportation which can make everyone look fast).
> 2. this chapter proves hiraishin>>>>>top speed Raikage( which should be common sense, since it's _teleportation_).
> 
> There is no indication  on Minato's peed compared to that of A, so i'm going by A's words( rather than some stupid people here) and say Minato is faster than Raikage....



Unless the _"top speed"_ didn't include Shunshin.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jun 10, 2011)

Bart said:


> Unless the _"top speed"_ didn't include Shunshin.



Shunshin is what Top Shinobi uses to Blitz other Shinobi , for example when Sasuke tried to Blitz Diedara and Tobi , so yes Top Speed includes Shunshin.


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## Cold (Jun 10, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> Dude , Minato here did same plan he did against Madara , waiting till last possible second , then teleporting and doing a counter-attack , that counter attack wouldnt have worked unless Minato had advantage over Raikage in movement and battle speed and reflexes and reaction time.



Wait, if he's just outright faster than Raikage couldn't he have just dodged and countered like Sasuke did when he fought Raikage?

Of course, Sasuke has sharingan prediction to know where Raikage would be before he got there, but if Minato was simply faster than A there would have been no need for hirashin.


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## Mistshadow (Jun 10, 2011)

Cold said:


> Wait, if he's just outright faster than Raikage couldn't he have just dodged and countered like Sasuke did when he fought Raikage?
> 
> Of course, Sasuke has sharingan prediction to know where Raikage would be before he got there, but if Minato was simply faster than A there would have been no need for hirashin.



Becuz what is more advantageous to use in battle and requires less effort? Actually moving out of way and still able to he kept track of. 
OR
Simply teleporting away and bk behind without the opponent realizing what happened?

I can be the fastest man alive, but teleporting to my destination would still be better and easier


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 10, 2011)

Lol @ these posts about he didnt use shuishin. 

Raikage statements > your fanfic.


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## Cold (Jun 10, 2011)

Mistshadow said:


> Becuz what is more advantageous to use in battle and requires less effort? Actually moving out of way and still able to he kept track of.
> OR
> Simply teleporting away and bk behind without the opponent realizing what happened?
> 
> I can be the fastest man alive, but teleporting to my destination would still be better and easier



I'm pretty sure that moving slightly out of the way and stabbing in the chest like Sasuke did requires less effort than teleporting to a tree and teleporting back and stabbing him in the back.

And if Minato is faster without hirashin, it wouldn't matter if A kept track of him or not.  He could look at Minato all day as he bled to death.

Just makes more sense to me to say Minato using hirashin, which is a part of his speed, is much faster than Raikage.

But if Minato is faster than shrouded Raikage without hirashin, why would he need to use hirashin?  Why not just dodge like Sasuke did and end it by stabbing him in the chest?  

If he indeed waited until the last possible second to dodge Raikage's punch like he did against Madara, why not just interrupt the attack like Sasuke did?  Minato had to do what he did against Madara because he couldn't touch Madara until just the right time, but Raikage could have been countered before his punch connected if Minato was faster without hirashin.


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## Mistshadow (Jun 10, 2011)

because as we have seen numerous times in this manga, speed isn't everything in this manga concerning fights. there are numerous other factors. minato didn't know off the bat how fast raikage was, just that he had a fast technique and move. better safe than sorry, stabbing from the back>moving to side and stabbing from front.

point is we are shown he waited until the last moment to move, kinda like a game of chicken, to make raikage susceptible. how do we know this? because the moves and motions he did after show us he was able to do it in another split second after the punch was in process of being thrown with a kill move already in place.
we dont know how his shunshin would have done, we know he has a very superb shunshin from naruto baby save, but we can't compare the instance with raikage instances cuz its however the author wants.


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## Cold (Jun 10, 2011)

Mistshadow said:


> because as we have seen numerous times in this manga, speed isn't everything in this manga concerning fights. there are numerous other factors. minato didn't know off the bat how fast raikage was, just that he had a fast technique and move. better safe than sorry, stabbing from the back>moving to side and stabbing from front.
> 
> point is we are shown he waited until the last moment to move, kinda like a game of chicken, to make raikage susceptible. how do we know this? because the moves and motions he did after show us he was able to do it in another split second after the punch was in process of being thrown with a kill move already in place.
> we dont know how his shunshin would have done, we know he has a very superb shunshin from naruto baby save, but we can't compare the instance with raikage instances cuz its however the author wants.




That little skirmish was entirely based on speed.  Minato came out on top because he has the fastest technique in the manga.

I'm just not willing to go as far as to say that the fastest person in the manga is faster than the second fastest without using  the technique that makes him the fastest.

That would mean that Minato, without using hirashin, is faster than Gated Gai, and can do stuff like evade amaterasu or avoid explosions at point blank range just off his normal movement speed.

With hirashin such things are a piece of cake, but without it?  Come on man.  Everyone else who is considered fast has something to boost their speed, but Minato is the fastest just with his normal speed?

But whatevs.  People see things differently,  Maybe later we will get some hard proof like we did this chapter.


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## Mistshadow (Jun 10, 2011)

Cold said:


> That little skirmish was entirely based on speed.  Minato came out on top because he has the fastest technique in the manga.
> 
> I'm just not willing to go as far as to say that the fastest person in the manga is faster than the second fastest without using  the technique that makes him the fastest.



you can say that all you want, but it's based on absolutely nothing cuz we know minato is insanely fast without hiraishin, and we know hiraishin puts him over the edge, and we know raikage said he only became fastest after minato died.

im just going with what manga says. minato is fastest man alive. minato can also teleport when need be.


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## shintebukuro (Jun 10, 2011)

Mistshadow said:


> you can say that all you want, but it's based on absolutely nothing cuz we know minato is insanely fast without hiraishin, and we know hiraishin puts him over the edge, and we know raikage said he only became fastest after minato died.
> 
> im just going with what manga says. minato is fastest man alive. minato can also teleport when need be.



It's extremely clear that when Raikage said Minato was faster than him, he was referring to Hiraishin.

There is absolutely nothing in the manga to say he would be referring to base speed. In fact, there's statements in the manga to conclude he specifically wouldn't have been.

You're going out of your way to try and prove a losing point. Minato's shunshin is not as fast as in your imagination, sorry. Until you can provide anything, it is nothing more than your personal fantasy.



			
				Nakson said:
			
		

> NF will never change. useles arguements over facts already confirmed in the manga.
> 
> This is similar to the Kakashi: Naruto you have surpassed me.
> 
> ...



I don't think you understand what people are arguing about. Last week tons of Minato fans said that Minato base speed > Raikage base speed. This chapter proved them wrong. That's it.

Everyone is aware that it doesn't take from Raikage's statement. This is an argument about base speed.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 10, 2011)

Either way, at the end of the day. Minato speed blitzed Madara who easily got away from Raikage.


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## shintebukuro (Jun 10, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Either way, at the end of the day. Minato speed blitzed Madara who easily got away from Raikage.



1. He did not speed blitz Madara.

2. Madara phased through Raikage's attack, which is not a measure of speed in any way, shape, or form.


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## nightmaremage99 (Jun 10, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Either way, at the end of the day. Minato speed blitzed Madara who easily got away from Raikage.



What if Madara just stayed phased the entire time in case any of the kages decided to attack him?

He can stay phased for up to 5 minutes after all, and we know that he can phase parts of his body without them actually disappearing.

And Minato didn't speed blitz Madara. He took advantage of Madara putting down his guard(I don't know if he did this, but his "I got you!' bubble suggests that he thought he won the exchange) and followed through with his plan.


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## Mistshadow (Jun 10, 2011)

shintebukuro said:


> It's extremely clear that when Raikage said Minato was faster than him, he was referring to Hiraishin.
> 
> There is absolutely nothing in the manga to say he would be referring to base speed. In fact, there's statements in the manga to conclude he specifically wouldn't have been.
> 
> ...



what are you talking about? Minato's shunshin has been shown to be able to catch kakashi in chidori mode and run away mid attack AND take naruto out of madara's hands. what else do you want to show he is good at shunshin? him deciding not to use it in battle with raikage at that time proves NOTHING. 
NOTHING is abundently clear. I know exactly what everyone is arguing. it proved NOTHING, minato's base speed very likely still is > raikages base speed. minato very likely CAN go a little faster than shrouded raikage with his shunshin. just no point when you can teleport to be leagues above the opponent.



shintebukuro said:


> 2. Madara phased through Raikage's attack, which is not a measure of speed in any way, shape, or form.



just a measure of reaction time


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## shintebukuro (Jun 10, 2011)

mistshadow said:
			
		

> what are you talking about? Minato's shunshin has been shown to be able to catch kakashi in chidori mode and run away mid attack AND take naruto out of madara's hands.



He outsped a 14 year-old Kakashi? Is that supposed to be extremely impressive or something? I know he has a fast shunshin, but nothing about that puts him on Raikage's level.

And he took the baby out of Madara's hands because that was Madara's intention.



> what else do you want to show he is good at shunshin? him deciding not to use it in battle with raikage at that time proves NOTHING.



Yes, it does. It implies he isn';t as fast as Raikage.

Or do you think the author intended for you to jump through all these hoops and hurdles trying to figure out some complex puzzle?

Really, think about that.



> it proved NOTHING, minato's base speed very likely still is > raikages base speed. minato very likely CAN go a little faster than shrouded raikage with his shunshin. just no point when you can teleport to be leagues above the opponen



You have literally no evidence at all to prove it. You're wrong.

Don't make claims when you have absolutely nothing to back it up. I'm amazed after this chapter you'd even have the balls to say something like that.



> just a measure of reaction time



Not really. Madara needs a tiny fraction of a second to phase. With sharingan, he has that in spades.

Also was Raikage in V2 there? I don't think he was.


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## Mistshadow (Jun 10, 2011)

outsped from a long distance behind a 14 yr old JOUNIN kakashi in a chidori charge, u no the charge that requires tremendous speed, caught him and shunshin'd back. thats a speed feat.



the fact he was able to do multiple motions within that one raikage motion is enough to show us that he could very likely have done alternative moves instead of hiraishin like......o idk........shunshin.

im done debating this with you as ive said the same thing multiple times. read my old posts in this thread. 

just cuz u choose not to do something doesnt make u worse at it. 

lets say im an expert sharp shooter with a sniper, but also have a missle launcher, hitting a far target. just cuz im an expert with my sniper doesnt mean i wont just take the missle launcher and shoot it as it requires less effort to hit the target and is more powerful. does that make me a bad sniper cuz i choose the missle launcher?

shunshin is the sniper, hiariashin is the missle launcher.


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## supersaiyan146 (Jun 10, 2011)

shintebukuro said:


> And he took the baby out of Madara's hands because that was Madara's intention.



So what ?

Madara expected Minato to move at godly speed to save infant Naruto and Minato obliged . Any problem ?


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## BlinkST (Jun 10, 2011)

Mistshadow said:


> outsped from a long distance behind a 14 yr old JOUNIN kakashi in a chidori charge, u no the charge that requires tremendous speed, caught him and shunshin'd back. thats a speed feat.


I was under the impression that he teleported to the kunai he had already gave him, and then simply teleported back.

Link removed
Link removed

The smoke kind of gave it away.

Link removed


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 10, 2011)

Blinx-182 said:


> I was under the impression that he teleported to the kunai he had already gave him, and then simply teleported back.
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...



What kunai did he use to teleport back to Obito and Rin? Could it have been shunshin after all?


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## BlinkST (Jun 10, 2011)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> What kunai did he use to teleport back to Obito and Rin? Could it have been shunshin after all?


I have no idea, other than they having kunai is a seemingly likely possibility, or he may have planted kunai around the area. Shunshun just doesn't seem likely due to the similarity of the consistent "poof" instant trasmission effect.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 10, 2011)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> What kunai did he use to teleport back to Obito and Rin? Could it have been shunshin after all?


His return to Obito and Rin's location is clearly _Shunshin no Jutsu_ as Mahiru and Minato are shown dashing away in Panel 2.

As for Minato's appearance in front of Kakashi, it's debated.


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## shintebukuro (Jun 10, 2011)

mistshadow said:
			
		

> outsped from a long distance behind a 14 yr old JOUNIN kakashi in a chidori charge, u no the charge that requires tremendous speed, caught him and shunshin'd back. thats a speed feat.



I made a mistake on Kakashi's age. He is 30 currently, so when the Kyuubi attacked he was 14. In Kakashi Gaiden, he was 12-13 years old.

You're exaggerating how big of a deal outspeeding him was. It certainly doesn't lend any evidence whatsoever to comparing him to Raikage. 

And to top it off, he may have just Hiraishin'd to him.


> the fact he was able to do multiple motions within that one raikage motion is enough to show us that he could very likely have done alternative moves instead of hiraishin like......o idk........shunshin.



No, it isn't. There's literally nothing in the manga to imply that at all. The fact Hiraishin is instant teleportation explains everything. There's no reason to look further at all sorts of hypotheticals and try to explain something that isn't even remotely implied.

Every argument you're making is out of pure bias for Minato. That's it.

In this chapter, we were shown him getting _completely speed blitzed_ by Raikage, and _then using Hiraishin to outspeed him_. You're twisting everything we've been shown, jumping through hoops and hurdles like it's nobody's business all to push your Minato-fan agenda.



> just cuz u choose not to do something doesnt make u worse at it.
> 
> lets say im an expert sharp shooter with a sniper, but also have a missle launcher, hitting a far target. just cuz im an expert with my sniper doesnt mean i wont just take the missle launcher and shoot it as it requires less effort to hit the target and is more powerful. does that make me a bad sniper cuz i choose the missle launcher?
> 
> shunshin is the sniper, hiariashin is the missle launcher.



From a writing standpoint, what do you think the author was trying to imply?

This whole "He could've shunshin'd but just didn't" argument is contrived and grasping for straws.

What your assuming is this big complicated scenario when what we're shown in the manga is very direct and very clear. You just don't want to believe it because you don't like it.



			
				SuperMinato146 said:
			
		

> Madara expected Minato to move at godly speed to save infant Naruto and Minato obliged . Any problem ?



The point is that it is not indicative of Raikage-level of speed. Minato is fast, yes. He probably has equal base speed with base Raikage, which means he is probably faster than even speedsters like Kakashi or Sasuke, yes. 

But this is simply not an example to put him beyond that level.


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## T-Bag (Jun 10, 2011)

What is there to discuss? Minato is faster simply because of hiraishin which is literally "instant"/ Lightning speed.


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## HawkMan (Jun 11, 2011)

This guy cracks me up. Going against Canon...I don't get it, but it's funny. 

He's still denying Raikage's comments including Hiraishin. He's even now rationalizing anything and everything...to deny this. Why is it so hard to admit Raikage's previous comments include Hiraishin? 


> Showing Visitor Messages 1 to 5 of 5
> 
> *Today 03:59 AMHawkMan*
> HAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA
> ...


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## son_michael (Jun 11, 2011)

If Raikage didn't use his lightning shroud Minato would be faster. When he did use the shroud, Minato was able to process and react(a non Hirashin feat) with hiraishin quickly. Once he was using Hiraishin it was like A was moving slow.

That's how we should be interpreting this chapter. Ultimately, Minato is faster than A and that's straight out of the Raikage's mouth.


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## supersaiyan146 (Jun 11, 2011)

shintebukuro said:


> The point is that it is not indicative of Raikage-level of speed. Minato is fast, yes. He probably has equal base speed with base Raikage, which means he is probably faster than even speedsters like Kakashi or Sasuke, yes.
> 
> But this is simply not an example to put him beyond that level.



Point is Madara said "He lived up to his Yellow flash nickname" and that implies base Raikage level speed ?

I agree Minato doesn't have impressive Shunshin feats in combat against top tiers , So yeah I'll wait for a few to confirm anything .

But according to me Minato is definitely faster than base Raikage . 
And comparing Minato's shunshin  to Raikage's V2 shunshin ..who knows


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 11, 2011)

Obviously Base Minato is faster than Base Raikage.  

Everyone is clearly overrating Minato's speed. He just run towards Madara took Naruto out of Madara's hand before Madara could strike. Well firstly, Madara wasn't even trying to kill Naruto, he wanted Minato to take Naruto and explode. This explains why Madara attached exploding tag to Naruto blanket. So Madara could have attacked Naruto slowly in order for Minato to take Naruto and blow up. Which failed since Minato used Hirashin to escape.

Everyone needs to acknowledge Killer Bee base speed. He crossed a whole mountain almost instantly while Minato just crossed a room in a cave.


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## son_michael (Jun 11, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Obviously Base Minato is faster than Base Raikage.
> 
> Everyone is clearly overrating Minato's speed. He just run towards Madara took Naruto out of Madara's hand before Madara could strike. Well firstly, Madara wasn't even trying to kill Naruto, he wanted Minato to take Naruto and explode. This explains why Madara attached exploding tag to Naruto blanket. So Madara could have attacked Naruto slowly in order for Minato to take Naruto and blow up. Which failed since Minato used Hirashin to escape.
> 
> Everyone needs to acknowledge Killer Bee base speed. He crossed a while mountain almost instantly while Minato just crossed a cave.




Minato didn't use hiraishin to escape the explosion


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 11, 2011)

son_michael said:


> Minato didn't use hiraishin to escape the explosion



If I'm not mistaken he took the blanket off and then he used Hirashin to escape the blast.


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## Enterprise E (Jun 11, 2011)

No, he used Hiraishin to teleport himself and Naruto away from Kushina, removed the blanket and then outran the explosion.  At least, that's how I read it when I looked at it more closely.  Don't forget, the exploding blanket took out the entire house Minato and Naruto appeared in.  I doubt that Kushina would have survived such an explosion had it gone off in in the location where she was relative to Minato when he noticed the exploding tags on Naruto's blanket.


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## Bart (Jun 11, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Obviously Base Minato is faster than Base Raikage.
> 
> Everyone is clearly overrating Minato's speed. He just run towards Madara took Naruto out of Madara's hand before Madara could strike. Well firstly, Madara wasn't even trying to kill Naruto, he wanted Minato to take Naruto and explode. This explains why Madara attached exploding tag to Naruto blanket. So Madara could have attacked Naruto slowly in order for Minato to take Naruto and blow up. Which failed since Minato used Hirashin to escape.
> 
> Everyone needs to acknowledge Killer Bee base speed. He crossed a whole mountain almost instantly while Minato just crossed a room in a cave.



The only know feat of _Yondime Raikage's_ base speed is when he grabbed _White Zetsu_.

We still don't know if _Minato_ used Shunshin in that encounter, which should technically be classed as his base speed, but _Ē_ didn't use Shunshin from what we know against _White Zetsu_.

I definitely agree with _Bee's_ base speed, and that crossing of an entire mountain with Shunshin was a monstrous feat in itself.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 11, 2011)

Bart said:


> The only know feat of _Yondime Raikage's_ base speed is when he grabbed _White Zetsu_.
> 
> We still don't know if _Minato_ used Shunshin in that encounter, which should technically be classed as his base speed, but _Ē_ didn't use Shunshin from what we know against _White Zetsu_.
> 
> I definitely agree with _Bee's_ base speed, and that crossing of an entire mountain with Shunshin was a monstrous feat in itself.



How do you know A didn't use Shunshin to grab White Zetsu? You can't tell whether someone uses Shunshin or base speed. Thats why they are the same thing to me.


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## hitokugutsu (Jun 11, 2011)

Shunsin is considered base speed. Every time Sasuke (or some other fast character) speed blitzes someone, they are using Shunsin and are commented on their speed


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## Mistshadow (Jun 11, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> Point is Madara said "He lived up to his Yellow flash nickname" and that implies base Raikage level speed ?



THANKYOU you just made me realize something. yes he lived up to the yellow flash nickname with that one shunshin.


THEN you have bee say all he saw was a YELLOW flash when naruto in RM shunshin blitzed kisame.
Naruto AND Minato capable of yellow flash shunshins.

and RM at the very least equals V1 Raikage. 

So Minato at the very LEAST equals V1 Raikage......
There end of story.


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## Final Jutsu (Jun 11, 2011)

Minato crossing half of konoha with shunshin to instantly appear on top of gamabunta/kyuubi after using food card destroyer is more impressive than bee's mountain shunshin imo.


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## Sphere (Jun 11, 2011)

*@kisame123*, the other thread was locked so I couldn't reply to you there. But since our debate is relevant to this thread I'll just reply here and hope that you'll see it.



> again, clear sign that you haven't been keeping up with the argument since the beginning. go back and read the post. Raikage wasn't crouching "only a little", sprinting requires crouching, especially during the initial launch point.
> reflexes
> see what position his collar takes? if it was vertical before when Raikage was standing straight, why can we see it in horizontal angle, laid out? it's because he's crouching.


Basically, you're saying that Raikage's hair appears to be rising only because he's crouching downwards, not because he's going v2.
Sorry but I don't buy it. From what we've seen so far, the ONLY time Raikage's hair is dislodged is when he's going v2.

When v1 Raikage slammed Sasuke into the ground -
reflexes
When v1 Raikage is standing straight -
Link removed
As you can see, Raikage's quick downward motion didn't affect his hairstyle at all.
Also, when v1 Raikage blocked Naruto, he was moving sideways yet his hairstyle remained intact - 
Link removed

Your other objections can be easily explained, and even if doubts persist, they can be chalked up to inconsistencies because the one thing we DO know for sure is that so far in the manga, Raikage's hair has never been dislodged unless he's using v2.



> if Minato's reactions were as sharp as his fans claim, then he could have reacted at least when Raikage's fist was two-six inches away from his face. he still would have had ample time to get a kunai close by like he did and teleport to his location. raikage can shunshin fast, but he doesn't have brakes like a car.


Minato's plan was to ensure that Raikage moves past the kunai before stopping. Raikage would try to stop as soon as Minato teleports, but he cannot brake instantaneously, and Minato was counting on that.

And Minato, by waiting until the last possible moment, was giving his plan the highest probability of success.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 11, 2011)

Mistshadow said:


> THANKYOU you just made me realize something. yes he lived up to the yellow flash nickname with that one shunshin.
> 
> 
> THEN you have bee say all he saw was a YELLOW flash when naruto in RM shunshin blitzed kisame.
> ...



Good post. +rep.. 

Seriously there is nothing to discuss. 

Minato with Hirashin > V2 Raikage > V1 Raikage = Minato = RM Naruto


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## Mistshadow (Jun 11, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Good post. +rep..
> 
> Seriously there is nothing to discuss.
> 
> Minato with Hirashin > V2 Raikage > V1 Raikage = Minato = RM Naruto



well we don't know how much faster naruto can go with rm, or how minato compares to v2 raikage speed, we just know at the very LEAST minato=v1 raikage,

and thanks


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## son_michael (Jun 11, 2011)

Mistshadow said:


> well we don't know how much faster naruto can go with rm, or how minato compares to v2 raikage speed, we just know at the very LEAST minato=v1 raikage,
> 
> and thanks



 Ive seen people make some pretty damn good arguments that Raikage was using V2 when he attacked Minato


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## T-Bag (Jun 11, 2011)

Enterprise E said:


> No, he used Hiraishin to teleport himself and Naruto away from Kushina, removed the blanket and then outran the explosion.  At least, that's how I read it when I looked at it more closely.  Don't forget, the exploding blanket took out the entire house Minato and Naruto appeared in.  I doubt that Kushina would have survived such an explosion had it gone off in in the location where she was relative to Minato when he noticed the exploding tags on Naruto's blanket.



He used Hiraishin/FLYING THUNDER GOD to escape the explosion. He said it in the next panel, and you can see the kunai next to him which says everything.


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## Mistshadow (Jun 11, 2011)

son_michael said:


> Ive seen people make some pretty damn good arguments that Raikage was using V2 when he attacked Minato



I know, I'm the main proponent of it. Just saying "at LEAST" cuz don't feel like debating it anymore


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## nightmaremage99 (Jun 11, 2011)

Actually, I thought so too. Then I looked at that panel again and saw a silhouette of Minato jumping out of the building right before it blew up. We also get a trail of smoke and him skidding on the ground. Hiraishin is teleportation. If he used hiraishin then he wouldn't be skidding like that.

So I think that tag is meant to show that he used hiraishin to teleport to the house, then quickly took the explosive tagged blanket off Naruto and jumped out of the house.


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## T-Bag (Jun 11, 2011)

nightmaremage99 said:


> Actually, I thought so too. Then I looked at that panel again and saw a silhouette of Minato jumping out of the building right before it blew up. We also get a trail of smoke and him skidding on the ground. Hiraishin is teleportation. If he used hiraishin then he wouldn't be skidding like that.
> 
> So I think that tag is meant to show that he used hiraishin to teleport to the house, then quickly took the explosive tagged blanket off Naruto and jumped out of the house.



It's just the impact of the explosion. He teleported, and then the waves of the explosion pushed him. For fucks sake, just read what he says afterwards. He was forced to use the flying thunder God = Hiraishin.

If he is able to outrun an explosion with mere speed, he would have outrun raikages punch too.


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## son_michael (Jun 11, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> It's just the impact of the explosion. He teleported, and then the waves of the explosion pushed him. For fucks sake, just read what he says afterwards. He was forced to use the flying thunder God = Hiraishin.
> 
> If he is able to outrun an explosion with mere speed, he would have outrun raikages punch too.




Your right, I just checked the Japflap translation and he did indeed say he was forced to use Hiraishin in order for Madara to separate him from kushina. 


The actual speed feat of the chapter is when he rescues baby Naruto, there's no seal on the wall there so we can assume it is pure speed that snatches Naruto away from Madara's kunai.


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## Enterprise E (Jun 11, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> He used Hiraishin/FLYING THUNDER GOD to escape the explosion. He said it in the next panel, and you can see the kunai next to him which says everything.



Then why does it show the smoke as if he is outrunning the explosion.  As I said before, he used Hiraishin to teleport to the house, taking him away from Kushina, took the blanket off, and ran like crazy with Naruto to escape the explosion.  There's no way Kushina would survive the explosion of the house if she were trapped inside, especially since Madara's teleportation seems to take time to activate.  Don't forget that the layout of building/cave that Kushina gave birth to Naruto in and the building that was destroyed after Minato saved Naruto, from what I see, is different.  At first I, too, thought that he used Hiraishin to escape the explosion.  It wasn't until I read chapters 500 and 501 a little more closely, especially paying attention to the movement of Minato as the building was exploding, plus the difference between the two buildings, that I began to believe that he actually outran the explosion, rather than teleported away from it.


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## Closet Pervert (Jun 11, 2011)

There's nothing to debate. A admitted inferiority. Didn't say anything about faster in some irrelevant or specific way, just faster. So whether it's Hiraishin or whatever, Minato is faster in whatever way really matters in battle. If he would've meant faster at baking a 3 star lettuce pie he would've fucking said so.

There's absolutely no room for any argument here. And yet the argument goes on and on and on...



WhatADrag said:


> Sasuke base speed > Minato base speed.
> 
> confirmed.


That's totally off topic!


*Spoiler*: __ 



Just kidding. The only people who still argue against Minato's championship in speed are the same bitter deluded fanboys that absolutely positively know that Minato and Hashirama lost to Madara/Tobi. And Konan was totally raped by the guy who only lost a hand and one Sharingan and would've died without sacrificing the latter.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 11, 2011)

I think the thread has gone on long enough. The people still talking about the topic are only going in circles now. Everyone else is going off-topic.

Locking.

I would ask that the cutoff conversations are continued in VMs/PMs. Only open up a new thread if absolutely necessary.


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