# The Servants of the 4th and 5th Holy Grail Wars vs. the HST



## MAPSK (Jan 27, 2013)

I wanted to see if certain Servants could still defeat the HST, given their recent powerups. So,

Scenario 1: 4th War Servants only
Scenario 2: 5th War Servants only (this includes Gilgamesh and both Assassins)
Scenario 3: 4th & 5th War Servants

Bonus scenario: Fate/Apocrypha Servants 

Standard OBD rules apply. Location is the Room of Spirit and Time. Go.


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## shade0180 (Jan 27, 2013)

They get Killed by Juubi... then there's also the Kyubified alliance. And since Naruto can share the Kyubi power can he also give it to the rest of the HST in this fight?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 27, 2013)

if Ea is used fast enough (don't remember if the space-time destruction (which is needed) effect is present always or only when it's fully charged/at full power) then gg HST .. otherwise HST should take it

IMO


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## MAPSK (Jan 27, 2013)

It always comes down to that godforsaken Ten Tails, doesn't it? 

Then again, there _is_ Saber. Avalon could protect her and others from the Bijuudama, and I recall seeing somewhere that calcs for actual, complete atomization of Casterthulu would take triple digit teratons (although I'd have to refer back to the original source text to see if they actually refer to it as "atomization").


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## Qinglong (Jan 27, 2013)

Agreeing with Flutter here, and since Ea requires charging, they lose

Atomiziation Excal was not accepted, she's ~338 Megatons iirc


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## Rene (Jan 27, 2013)

They can dodge bijuudama's with spirit form (except for 5th war Gilgamesh and Saber obviously) the problem is they're up against an overwhelming number of opponents with a lot of them capable of killing them.

The only way they could win is through an extremely unlikely to be used strategy which requires knowledge and infinite prana.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 27, 2013)

last time spirit form was discussed IIRC it was decided that ki or similar energy blasts would work due to equalization with prana or something like that (and not being able to pass thick prana concentrations in spirit form)

not sure though

not like they're gonna camp in spirit form to evade everything, I have a real hard time imagining that 



also, FSN Rider would wreck some major havoc on the HST


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## steveht93 (Jan 27, 2013)

I can't believe I'm gonna say this 

Juubi-Dama?

Juubi-Dama......

Now I must go gargle soap or something.


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## Rene (Jan 27, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> last time spirit form was discussed IIRC it was decided that ki or similar energy blasts would work due to equalization with prana or something like that (and not being able to pass thick prana concentrations in spirit form)
> 
> not sure though


I'm not gonna get into the discussion atm because I'd end up spending hours looking up material regarding to spirit form usage, though this is possible I don't think it's as simple as that.



> not like they're gonna camp in spirit form to evade everything, I have a real hard time imagining that


Wasn't really the strategy I was thinking of, but it is still part of their skillset.

I was thinking more along the lines of having Rider pick up some of the HST in his reality marble together with the servants and then having Gilgamesh use EA to destroy them until all threats to them are gone.

Like I said though, that would require infinite prana to complete and also knowledge on not accidently picking up all the big shots at the same time. 


> also, FSN Rider would wreck some major havoc on the HST


Well, she's quite the stunner.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 27, 2013)

> I was thinking more along the lines of having Rider pick up some of the HST in his reality marble together with the servants and then having Gilgamesh use EA to destroy them until all threats to them are gone.


huh, interesting 

since it's Iskander Gil could actually allow something like that 





> Well, she's quite the stunner.


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## Boomy (Jan 27, 2013)

Rene said:
			
		

> I'm not gonna get into the discussion atm because I'd end up spending hours looking up material regarding to spirit form usage, though this is possible I don't think it's as simple as that.


Conventional weapons are useless against them. But they can't pass pure prana.

edit: that being said, not so long ago we had similiar thread, just with Nasuverse.


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## Stix (Jan 27, 2013)

Clear me out on this one but on scenario 3 which has both of the 4th and 5th Servants, meaning there's 2 Gils(one who can't turned to spirit form) and 2 Sabers(Kiritsugu's and Shirou's/Rin's/Alter)?

If so, they could have a chance. Vimana is allowed right?



Rene said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of having Rider pick up some of the HST in his reality marble together with the servants and then having Gilgamesh use EA to destroy them until all threats to them are gone.



Good one, while Iskander do that, Gil and Saber could charge Ea and Excalibur to finish them off.
Ofc, not all of HST chars could fit in Iskander's RM but the rest could be distracted by Caster's monsters and the big one.
As long as they took out most of the heavy hitters and leave them less than 12, and the rest are just those who couldn't penetrate God Hand, Basaka would do the rest.

Just putting one of the possibilities, not really sure myself that they could do it.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 27, 2013)

random question, but how would God Hand interact with Respira


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## MAPSK (Jan 27, 2013)

I'm not entirely sure, considering what constitutes an A Rank attack in a crossover fight like this is iffy, but even if it could kill him, he'd develop an immunity to it afterwards. And even then, I'm not sure Respira would work on Servants anyway, considering they're dead in a different way than the retarded way Bleach chars are.

Speaking, can't Medea just beamspam the shit out of the HST? If I recall correctly, she has one of the highest DCs of all the Servants shown so far (aside from Gil and Seibah). She just sucks because of how common MR is in Fate and how she can't take a hit worth shit. But with some of the others backing her up, she could deliver some serious long range firepower, and her barrier spell is about as durable as Bazaka is.


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## Boomy (Jan 27, 2013)

Stix said:
			
		

> Ofc, not all of HST chars could fit in Iskander's RM but the rest could be distracted by Caster's monsters and the big one.


The big ones takes time to summon. And sadly, one BD from Juubi is enough for them. Baring Saber with Avalon.


			
				Fluttershy said:
			
		

> random question, but how would God Hand interact with Respira


Probably reduce him to the skeleton, he would regenerate though 

On the other hand, it would took some time.


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## Rene (Jan 27, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> random question, but how would God Hand interact with Respira



Might take one of his lives, he'll regen and grow immune to it though.


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## AliceKumo (Jan 27, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> random question, but how would God Hand interact with Respira



Assuming it kills him (shouldn't really work given he's a Servant and shit), the next time he walks up to him and the 2nd Espada loses his head.


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## Kazu (Jan 27, 2013)

I do remember that Medea had a really fucking powerful spell in HA, but I can't really say that she can spam that. 

Anyway, most of the time she needs to be in her workshop to beamspam, which provides a shit ton of prana.


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## Sygurgh (Jan 27, 2013)

Juubi and Gilgamesh face each other in a quick draw.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 27, 2013)

Gonna say this straight up now. 

For the bonus scenario most of the Apocrypha servants are nearly featless except for Siegfried, Mordred, and to a certain extent Karna.


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## Kazu (Jan 27, 2013)

Can Jeanne go lol at Juubi-dama with her EX magic resist?


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## Stix (Jan 27, 2013)

BoomBaeBoom said:


> The big ones takes time to summon. And sadly, one BD from Juubi is enough for them. Baring Saber with Avalon.



Didn't see the location is room of spirit and time and no starting distance specify. 20 meters apart, they're toast.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 27, 2013)

> If I recall correctly,* she has one of the highest DCs of all the Servants shown so far* (aside from Gil and Seibah)


wut


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## Boomy (Jan 27, 2013)

That can be very confusing. She can spam A level spells but really, she sticks at multi-city block.

But yeah, she has this nice dc feat from F/HA


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## Stix (Jan 27, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> Speaking, can't Medea just beamspam the shit out of the HST? If I recall correctly, she has one of the highest DCs of all the Servants shown so far (aside from Gil and Seibah).



Caladbolg could top that, and GoB or UBW spam is far more deadlier than her spam. But Archer would've been annihilated by the Juubi.

Other possibilities is that they ride Vimana(assuming they're all start off on top of it) except for Riders and got out of range before any BB or Juubidamas.


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## MAPSK (Jan 27, 2013)

Kazuakisama said:


> I do remember that Medea had a really fucking powerful spell in HA, but I can't really say that she can spam that.
> 
> Anyway, most of the time she needs to be in her workshop to beamspam, which provides a shit ton of prana.



That is true, the Workshop does provide a lot of additional prana (or at least lowers the cost requirement to cast spells, I can't remember which), but Caster still has a fucking obscene amount of prana, considering the standard mage has about 25-30 units of Od in them at any given time, and Caster's given rank in mana is A+, meaning she has over 100 times that, meaning she has about 5 times Rin's Od. When you take into account that most spells in the Nasuverse only use Od as a starting point and feed most of the spell through the prana in the surrounding environment, 700~2000 units of prana no longer seems like an exorbitant cost for a typical volley of beamspam.

EDIT: Also, _damn, Mordred._ You need to chill, girl.


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## Cromer (Jan 27, 2013)

Can we give the servants knowledge instead?


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## Kazu (Jan 27, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> EDIT: Also, _damn, Mordred._ You need to chill, girl.



Well she does have some daddy issues. 

Actually... mommy issues? uhh...


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## MAPSK (Jan 27, 2013)

Eh, why not.

EDIT: Hahahahaha.


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## Stix (Jan 27, 2013)

Kazuakisama said:


> Well she does have some daddy issues.
> 
> Actually... mommy issues? uhh...



lol.



Cromer said:


> Can we give the servants knowledge instead?



Well knowledge isn't exactly the real problem right now, it's the starting distance.


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## Xelloss (Jan 27, 2013)

Err in HA saber claim that rain of magic could kill her if caster go all out. Magic resistance can get you so far out.

And no NP are deadly yes but vs no magic resistance in play Medea is stronger than any servant baring Gilgamesh per nasu word.


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## willyvereb (Jan 27, 2013)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> Gonna say this straight up now.
> 
> For the bonus scenario most of the Apocrypha servants are *nearly featless except for Siegfried, Mordred, and to a certain extent Karna*.




*"Reverse th' hourglass of timeth! First Folio!"*


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 27, 2013)

Shakespeare solos with willys knowledge


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## Boomy (Jan 27, 2013)

I pity the one who summons him


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 27, 2013)

being Casters Master is suffering ?


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## Boomy (Jan 27, 2013)

I blame Angra Mainyu


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## willyvereb (Jan 27, 2013)

Both masters disagree.
Both Casters shared the best chemistry with their current masters.
Emphasis on the current, since, well, we know what did Medea do with her original master.


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## Kazu (Jan 27, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> being Casters Master is suffering ?



Not if it's extra caster~


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## willyvereb (Jan 27, 2013)

Also I found this small gem:


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## steveht93 (Jan 27, 2013)

Where can I read fate/aporyphya? Any links? Please!


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## Boomy (Jan 27, 2013)

Only prologue and 1st chapter is out.


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## Kazu (Jan 27, 2013)

That is amazing


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## Crimson King (Jan 27, 2013)

Gil annihilates them with Ea while calling them mongrels


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## Qinglong (Jan 27, 2013)

Kazuakisama said:


> Not if it's extra caster~



Just walked out of a thread this morning of people who wanted something like that but worse

Not going back

EDIT: Lancer still suffering? Lancer still suffering.


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## Qinglong (Jan 27, 2013)

> Ah, Karna, son of Surya, you grace me with your presence.
> 
> The way in which society has advanced in the few centuries after my passing has captivated me, and my curiosity leads me to pursue reading more modern compositions.
> 
> ...






Already "death flagged"


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## Boomy (Jan 27, 2013)

Well, Lancer class after all, fucking "Luck" 

I'm more interested in DAA changes in Tsukihime remake


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## steveht93 (Jan 27, 2013)

The karana one almost killed me form laughter


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## Stix (Jan 27, 2013)

-Mahoyo
-F/A
-Tsukihime Remake

Man so much to keep track of, so little time.


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## Kazu (Jan 27, 2013)




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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 27, 2013)

Stix said:


> -Mahoyo
> -F/A
> -Tsukihime Remake
> 
> Man so much to keep track of, so little time.


Mahoyo takes priority


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## willyvereb (Jan 27, 2013)

Back to topic, what's the starting distance?
OBD standard assumptions say it's 20 steps how we measure it?
Are they human steps or Juubi/Bijuu sized steps?
If the latter, the Fate cast actually has a better chance.
Many of them can take an indirect Bijuu Bomb and some of them has the potential to take down the Juubi.

BTW, Enuma Elish requires charging time but that's hardly a drawback.
Saber was planned to use an Excaliblast to take down hundreds of magically enhanced bullets, Lancelot and the F15J he was riding on.
Keep in mind that Saber was constantly chased by Lancelot's magically boosted jet fighter and she could still find a moment to unleash this attack.
Enuma Elish is only marginally slower in its charge.

Also in Hollow Ataraxia, Gil-ko (a weakened version of Gil) was attacked by all sides by Shadows jumping at bullet-like speed.
When they were about to reach him, Gilko transformed into his adult form and summoned Ea in instant, destroying them in the very same moment.
He also casually unleashed Enuma Elish, with its space-time destruction and all, while the narration also speaking about some weird conceptual effect which exposes any creatures born on the said planet to the antithesis of their life or something.

So yeah, aside from heated close combat, Gilgamesh would have no issues to activate Enuma Elish.


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## MAPSK (Jan 27, 2013)

Kazuakisama said:


> Not if it's extra caster~



Awwwww yeah


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## Boomy (Jan 27, 2013)

Gilgamesh uses Golden Hammer

Thank you, we're done here, go home.


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## Kazu (Jan 27, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> Back to topic, what's the starting distance?
> OBD standard assumptions say it's 20 steps how we measure it?
> Are they human steps or Juubi/Bijuu sized steps?
> If the latter, the Fate cast actually has a better chance.
> ...



So, as sygurgh said, it's a quick draw between Ea and Juubi-dama.


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## Sablés (Jan 27, 2013)

BoomBaeBoom said:


> Gilgamesh uses Golden Hammer
> 
> Thank you, we're done here, go home.



Epic as always.


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## MAPSK (Jan 27, 2013)

So the Servants take it?


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## Stix (Jan 27, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> Mahoyo takes priority



Definitely 



willyvereb said:


> Back to topic, what's the starting distance?
> OBD standard assumptions say it's 20 steps how we measure it?
> Are they human steps or Juubi/Bijuu sized steps?
> If the latter, the Fate cast actually has a better chance.



Wasn't it 20-40 meters? Last time I checked, it was.


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## Boomy (Jan 27, 2013)

20m is a standard distance, yes.


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## Kazu (Jan 27, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> So the Servants take it?



Again, it depends on whether the Juubi can bijuu-dama them first or if gil can Ea first


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## AliceKumo (Jan 27, 2013)

So... let's say we exclude the Juubi and/or Gilgamesh?

How would it go?


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## Boomy (Jan 27, 2013)

Prototype Gilgamesh comes and does the same job.


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## MAPSK (Jan 27, 2013)

The way I see it, even if they lose Gil and the HST loses the Juubi, the Servants still have Saber.


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## Stix (Jan 27, 2013)

Even if they loses the Juubi, HST team still have the Bijuus and other AoE's skills. Like I said before, the problem is the starting distance, with 20 meters, what's stopping Law from switching their personalities between each other or with Buggy's and Marine fodders or something?


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## MAPSK (Jan 27, 2013)

Avalon. Just Avalon. Besides, switching personalities doesn't matter when they're all in the same mindset (i.e. bloodlusted)


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## Stix (Jan 27, 2013)

Since when mindset=personalities?

Switching their personalities means that Lancer would be in Buggy's body and vice versa, other Servants' personalities in other fodders' bodies and so on. Saber might be able to avoid via Avalon but she isn't winning if she's alone.


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## steveht93 (Jan 27, 2013)

I think if Gilgamesh and the juubi where removed from the fight then the chances of the HST winning increases tremendously. 

Non of the servants has enough fire power to kill the bijuu's and hax users are bound to get overwhelmed.

Speed is unequal as well.


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## MAPSK (Jan 27, 2013)

... That's not what personality means, numbnuts. That's the mind. Either you made a mistake in describing that power, or the translators did.

Either way, unless the ability can work across dimensions, it means shit. Avalon is capable of accommodating more than one person.

EDIT: Excalibur is at least town level, if not higher, considering it takes a crazy amount of energy to completely atomize something the size of Caster's monster (I remember seeing calcs that put it at triple digit teratons). I'd say with Avalon and Excalibur, Saber is easily capable of dealing with the bijuu. Also, Caster.


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## Crimson King (Jan 27, 2013)

steveht93 said:


> I think if Gilgamesh and the juubi where removed from the fight then the chances of the HST winning increases tremendously.
> 
> Non of the servants has enough fire power to kill the bijuu's and hax users are bound to get overwhelmed.
> 
> Speed is unequal as well.



Mach 45>>>hypersonic


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## AliceKumo (Jan 27, 2013)

Since when did the HST go past mach 45, as that's the current standing of Servants IIRC.

And i don't see the Bijuu's taking Excalibur either.


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## Kazu (Jan 27, 2013)

Even then, the jinchuuriki have mountain level DC and durability, which most of the servants aren't getting past. There's also the issue of numbers and the fact that Servants have limited amounts of prana. 

As much as it pains me to say this, the HST probably takes this.


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## steveht93 (Jan 27, 2013)

Crimson King said:


> Mach 45>>>hypersonic



Since when?  I thought servants where setting at Mach 15 or something.

And I thought sabers excaliblast is 300 mt only and not in the teratons range.


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## Boomy (Jan 27, 2013)

AliceKumo said:
			
		

> And i don't see the Bijuu's taking Excalibur either.


Hachibi tanked his own BD which is>Excaliblast.


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## Sygurgh (Jan 27, 2013)

The atomization was an after-effect of the heat around the tip.
The tip is still the ultimate cutting attack.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 27, 2013)

Crimson King said:


> Mach 45>>>hypersonic



Mach 160>>>>>>>Mach 45


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## Boomy (Jan 27, 2013)

Actually, mach 45 comes from Saber Strike Air.

I wouldn't say every Servants has this speed, reactions yeah but no movement.


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## Stix (Jan 27, 2013)

They loses Gil means they loses someone who could spams NPs right off the bat that could possibly put the distance between them and the HST team(temporarily).

HST team losing the Juubi isn't as unfavorable as the Servants since they still have a bunch of people with AoE attacks and a combined Bijuudama could finished off most of Servants barring Saber(Avalon), as a matter of fact, Juubi is actually a downside for the HST team too since if he use Juubidama with that massive AoE, many of HST team would be taken out by a lot.
Also, losing Gil means losing mobility(if Vimana is allowed).

They way the Servants have a chance to win is if:
-They start off riding Gil's Vimana except Riders, Riders also start off riding Bellerophon and Gordius Wheel.
-Iskandar uses his RM to take many HST chars and Medusa uses Gorgon Break right off the bat, petrifying anyone she could came in contact with.
-While both of the Riders distracting them, Bluebeard preparing his giant monster and Archer preparing UBW. Medea could also helps them spamming stuff.
-In the midst of that, Gil and Saber charging Ea and Excalibur while riding on top of Vimana and Gil spamming stuff too.
-if all of the above work out, Lancers and Berserkers could take out the rest of them.

That's about it, won't guarantee them to win too by all of those.
Oh, and Assassins can become a sacrifice in the earlier fight for a distraction purpose too.



			
				steveht93 said:
			
		

> Non of the servants has enough fire power to kill the bijuu's and hax users are bound to get overwhelmed.



I'm pretty sure someone like Saber, Gil and Archer have the firepower, though it needs to be charged and Archer needs a bit of prep.


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## Kazu (Jan 27, 2013)

Basically, 9/10 times, the HST wins.


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## Sygurgh (Jan 27, 2013)

Mach 160 is the speed of the beam, not the speed of the characters.

Excalibur > Mach 160
Enuma Elish also has a faster activation speed.

Madara and Obito needs to synchronize and give the order (or are they starting synchronized?). Juubi needs to gather energy and fire (Shikaku and his team had the time have a short discussion while the Juubi was aiming).

Remove Gilgamesh and you remove the Servants' chance of victory.
Keep him and you more or less assure their victory.
One has to wonder if this isn't a Gilgamesh versus HST thread.


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## Stix (Jan 27, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> ... That's not what personality means, numbnuts. That's the mind. Either you made a mistake in describing that power, or the translators did.



You said mindset, personality is the mental characteristics of an individual. Doesn't matter if their mindset is the same, their personality isn't.

Also, Law's power isn't really known if what he switched is personalities, could be souls or something else that exchanges characters psychology.



MAPSK said:


> Either way, unless the ability can work across dimensions, it means shit. Avalon is capable of accommodating more than one person.



But not all of them, and it's not like Avalon would last forever.



MAPSK said:


> EDIT: Excalibur is at least town level, if not higher, considering it takes a crazy amount of energy to completely atomize something the size of Caster's monster (I remember seeing calcs that put it at triple digit teratons). I'd say with Avalon and Excalibur, Saber is easily capable of dealing with the bijuu. Also, Caster.



Atomization was dismissed as flowery language.
IIRC current standing has it on 385 Megatons, so high mountain level.


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## AliceKumo (Jan 27, 2013)

Kazuakisama said:


> Basically, 9/10 times, the HST wins.



When Gilgamesh's not there... might as well make it 10/10.

But with him they are pretty much one Ea away from victory.


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## Boomy (Jan 27, 2013)

Sygurgh said:
			
		

> Excalibur > Mach 160





> Enuma Elish also has a faster activation speed.


And no.


> Madara and Obito needs to synchronize and give the order (or are they starting synchronized?).


You know...Juubi is not a goddamn robot, he's sentinent being.


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## Crimson King (Jan 27, 2013)

So, what's stopping Archer from going into spirit form the spamming Unlimited Gae Bolg Works?

Fuck the melee version. Striking Death Flight would fuck over 99% of the HST. Homing exploding spears that negate regen.


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## Boomy (Jan 27, 2013)

Crimson King said:
			
		

> So, what's stopping Archer from going into spirit form the spamming Unlimited Gae Bolg Works?


The fact that they can't attacks in spirit form?


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## Crimson King (Jan 27, 2013)

BoomBaeBoom said:


> The fact that they can't attacks in spirit form?



He doesn't have to. He can jsut prepare in spirit form then start nuking the moment he goes out of spirit form.


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## Sygurgh (Jan 27, 2013)

This will be my lass post of the joorney and might even the end if ebd if bd
Dra,nk something susspiciutsn U'm in space. like real space.*
I shouldn't have taken rhus medicien thingyL


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## Xelloss (Jan 27, 2013)

No circuits on spirit form, no way to do the chant, and he has never ever used gae bolg.


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## Stix (Jan 27, 2013)

Crimson King said:


> So, what's stopping Archer from going into spirit form the spamming Unlimited Gae Bolg Works?
> 
> Fuck the melee version. Striking Death Flight would fuck over 99% of the HST. Homing exploding spears that negate regen.



Limited prana I guess. And he can't attack in spirit form.

Gae Bolg is cheap but it's not like he could keep using it.


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## AliceKumo (Jan 27, 2013)

... what?


Anyway, don't think Archer can make shit in spirit form can he?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 27, 2013)

AliceKumo said:


> So... let's say we exclude the Juubi and/or Gilgamesh?
> 
> How would it go?


w/o Gil Team Servants loses for sure .. F/A idk, need feats


Juubi is hardly a game changer for HST .. his BBs are just bigger and faster .. the regular ones are still at least in the gigatons (the combined - much higher), which is enough

and Bleach and OP have their own nukes to add to the overall chaos as well .. there's hax too, Law would do good here



so it all still comes down to this





Fluttershy said:


> if Ea is used fast enough (don't remember if the space-time destruction (which is needed) effect is present always or only when it's fully charged/at full power) then gg HST .. otherwise HST should take it
> 
> IMO


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## Crimson King (Jan 27, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> This will be my lass post of the joorney and might even the end if ebd if bd
> Dra,nk something susspiciutsn U'm in space. like real space.*
> I shouldn't have taken rhus medicien thingyL



You ok there?


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## Kazu (Jan 27, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> This will be my lass post of the joorney and might even the end if ebd if bd
> Dra,nk something susspiciutsn U'm in space. like real space.*
> I shouldn't have taken rhus medicien thingyL



Are you posting in the right thread?


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## Sygurgh (Jan 27, 2013)

the world is so beauctiful from whre I'm seeing.
whlo kno a small game clild change so mucj;
i'lm floating I feel floatigng.


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## Boomy (Jan 27, 2013)

Crimson King said:
			
		

> He doesn't have to. He can jsut prepare in spirit form then start nuking the moment he goes out of spirit form.


Then his projection would just break. His spirit form uses almost no prana if he would go into spirit form then he would fuck one of the seven steps.


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## AliceKumo (Jan 27, 2013)

lol


So it's pretty much Ea or nothing.


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## Kazu (Jan 27, 2013)

Sygurgh...serious question

Are you high?


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## Crimson King (Jan 27, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> the world is so beauctiful from whre I'm seeing.
> whlo kno a small game clild change so mucj;
> i'lm floating I feel floatigng.





BoomBaeBoom said:


> Then his projection would just break. His spirit form uses almost no prana if he would go into spirit form then he would fuck one of the seven steps.



OK, then go into spirit form, fly far away, prepare there, fly back.


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## Sygurgh (Jan 27, 2013)

me sleepign
took too much sleepyaids
++


----------



## Stix (Jan 27, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> the world is so beauctiful from whre I'm seeing.
> whlo kno a small game clild change so mucj;
> i'lm floating I feel floatigng.



You're stoned or something?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 27, 2013)

AliceKumo said:


> lol
> 
> 
> So it's pretty much Ea or nothing.


there's a reason it's EX-rank and untraceable


----------



## Sygurgh (Jan 27, 2013)

This is it fo me today
the dark lord is taking over
gona need sleeep to stop impulse
see u soo n hopefully


----------



## Crimson King (Jan 27, 2013)

Not seeing how the HSt can even hit someone faster than them.


----------



## Kazu (Jan 27, 2013)

WMG: sygurgh is inverting.


----------



## Boomy (Jan 27, 2013)

Crimson King said:
			
		

> OK, then go into spirit form, fly far away, prepare there, fly back.


That could possibly work. Still, maintaining prana would be a bitch.

+ I doubt he can make so many copies of Gae Bolg, iirc, he only reproduced something again after the previous projection was destroyed.


----------



## AliceKumo (Jan 27, 2013)

Kazuakisama said:


> WMG: sygurgh is inverting.



YMV: sygurgh wanted to see what happends when you mix coke and coke.


----------



## Stix (Jan 27, 2013)

Crimson King said:


> Not seeing how the HSt can even hit someone faster than them.



They have a bunch of characters with AoE attacks, most notably the Bijuus.

And seeing the starting distance is 20 meters, Law could switches their personalities right off the bat with some fodders.


----------



## Crimson King (Jan 27, 2013)

BoomBaeBoom said:


> That could possibly work. Still, maintaining prana would be a bitch.
> 
> + I doubt he can make so many copies of Gae Bolg, iirc, he only reproduced something again after the previous projection was destroyed.



There's no rule that says he can't make more than 1 copy of the same NP.

Actually, Sparks Liner High showed  Shirou making 3 pairs of K&B.


----------



## Kazu (Jan 27, 2013)

BoomBaeBoom said:


> That could possibly work. Still, maintaining prana would be a bitch.
> 
> + I doubt he can make so many copies of Gae Bolg, iirc, he only reproduced something again after the previous projection was destroyed.



Sparks Liner High


----------



## Crimson King (Jan 27, 2013)

Stix said:


> They have a bunch of characters with AoE attacks, most notably the Bijuus.
> 
> And seeing the starting distance is 20 meters, Law could switches their personalities right off the bat with some fodders.



I'm sure the average Servant has learned from Piccolo and has gained the legendary ability of DOOOOOOOODGE.

The Servants DODGE the explosions, resulting in the HST side taking out most of their own.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 27, 2013)

might be time to remember that the Mach 20+ calcs for HST are for mid/high-tiers (which get shit on by high/top/god-tiers), while the Mach 45 combat speed (not long distance as far as I know) is for someone like prana-burst Saber which should be pretty high up there speed-wise

now there's still a difference (and we can't make up higher numbers), but something to keep in mind



in any case, it's lolEa or bust


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 27, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> might be time to remember that the *Mach 20+ calcs for HST are for mid/high-tiers (which get shit on by high/top/god-tiers)*, while the Mach 45 combat speed (not long distance as far as I know) is for someone like prana-burst Saber which should be pretty high up there speed-wise
> 
> now there's still a difference (and we can't make up higher numbers), but something to keep in mind
> 
> ...



Fluttershit, don't even try implying anyone in the HST is nearing mach 40 reactions without calcs to prove it, this sort of "powerscaling" never flies.

It didn't for YYH prior to receiving calcs for S class demon speed, and they had a far more obvious and massive a power gap than the fucking HST 

The way I figure it, servants should only need to be a few hundred meters out of the epicenter to survive without much issue.

And they have more than enough speed to accomplish that for a fair while.

Whether they can win or not is hard to say, but they aren't going down without a shitton of issue.


----------



## Stix (Jan 27, 2013)

Crimson King said:


> I'm sure the average Servant has learned from Piccolo and has gained the legendary ability of DOOOOOOOODGE.
> 
> The Servants DODGE the explosions, resulting in the HST side taking out most of their own.



They could dodge but not like they could dodge forever, and if their personalities are switched, they're toast. Yeah the explosions might take out some of the HST too but they won't be wiped out that easily.


----------



## Boomy (Jan 27, 2013)

Kazuakisama said:
			
		

> Sparks Liner High


That proves nothing. Ofc, Shirou did 2 succesful projections of the same Noble Phantasm...but that still can't be compared to tens or hundreds.

+ it's combo of Kanshou and Bakuya, there's even incantation for that.

Nevermind Shirou and Archer are pretty good at reproducing those two swords.

Even if we assume that Archer reproduces hundreds of Gae Bolgs(which is impossible, prana cost is pretty high) then what will this do? Thrown version is "only" pretty high city buster.

edit: wait, actually Archer has to grab Gae Bolg and use it's name...


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 27, 2013)

But seriously fluttershit, do I need to start keeping an eye on the cancer dome if you can so freely spout shit like you just did?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 27, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Fluttershit, don't even try implying anyone in the HST is nearing mach 40 reactions without calcs to prove it, this sort of "powerscaling" never flies.
> 
> It didn't for YYH prior to receiving calcs for S class demon speed, and they had a far more obvious and massive a power gap than the fucking HST
> 
> ...


should've bolded my second sentence just for you then 


and wasn't aware Mach 45 extended for hundreds of meters distance .. especially for those w/o prana burst


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 27, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> But seriously fluttershit, do I need to start keeping an eye on the cancer dome if you can so freely spout shit like you just did?


whatever gets your rocks off


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 27, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> and wasn't aware Mach 45 extended for hundreds of meters distance .. especially for those w/o prana burst



Can't say I know myself I guess.

Only read throuh fate, not too well versed on what and where their speed extends to.



Fluttershy said:


> whatever gets your rocks off



I'll pass, probably.

Don't feel like reading mangled english from Unknown when I'm online.


----------



## Boomy (Jan 27, 2013)

Actually basic speed of Servants is mach 15. Mach 45 comes from Saber using her Prana Burst and Lancer reacted to it or more like he prepared for it, do what you want with it

*Spoiler*: __ 





> Released from the golden sword, a jet of air comes out from behind Saber. By releasing her armor to increase her prana burst further, her body changes into a supersonic bullet.
> 
> At this point, Saber's speed is three times higher than normal. It's already too late for an ambush attack or an evasion the instant she steps forward. Even if Lancer's spear can deal a serious wound to Saber, he will receive a lethal strike the same instant. That is certainly a strike made to risk one's life for a certain victory, ready to even have her flesh cut or her bones severed. Breaking through the wall of air at several times the speed of sound, the shockwave of the rush blew the surrounding rubbles like leaves.
> 
> ...


----------



## Crimson King (Jan 27, 2013)

Unlimited Gae Bolg Works + DOOOOODGE wins this for Servants


----------



## Crimson King (Jan 27, 2013)

BoomBaeBoom said:


> Actually basic speed of Servants is mach 15. Mach 45 comes from Saber using her Prana Burst and Lancer reacted to it or more like he prepared for it, do what you want with it



Them able to react to it means mach 45 is no problem for them. Both Saber and Lancer were able to DODGE each others attacks at that speed.


----------



## Boomy (Jan 27, 2013)

That's why I said reactions are good.

But no crossing distance the same way Saber did. And Lancer didn't really dodged that attack. He had Gae Buidhe buried there, it was his plan to choose this place.

Well, you can say he still had to rise his leg fast enough.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 27, 2013)

would Gil even bother moving from his spot ?


----------



## Boomy (Jan 27, 2013)

If it's in character then nope.

But knowing him he has some cheap shield to block any attack


----------



## Kazu (Jan 27, 2013)

BoomBaeBoom said:


> If it's in character then nope.
> 
> But knowing him he has some cheap shield to block any attack



If we go by prisma illya, gil has a shield that blocks a _broken phantasm excalibur_


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 27, 2013)

Stix said:


> They could dodge but not like they could dodge forever, and if their personalities are switched, they're toast. Yeah the explosions might take out some of the HST too but they won't be wiped out that easily.



AVALON. A. VA. LON. A-V-A-L-O-N.


----------



## Boomy (Jan 27, 2013)

If we go by _author_ then he can pull anything 

Also, Broken Phantasm Excalibur?  Who would waste such a sword?


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 27, 2013)

Gil. Gil would.


----------



## Kazu (Jan 27, 2013)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Kuro von einzbern. With the archer card

It should be noted that there isn't any rank degradation, since illya won against prisma saber excalibur with a traced excalibur


----------



## Boomy (Jan 27, 2013)

He wouldn't. Unlike other "trash" in his stock he considered Excalibur to be quite treasure.

edit: aren't there like 2 chapters of Fate/Illya?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 27, 2013)




----------



## MAPSK (Jan 27, 2013)

'Twas a joke. Gil doesn't even have Excalibur in GoB. Just some of its descendants.


----------



## Boomy (Jan 27, 2013)

Dafuq? 

Still, doesn't look like my type of series.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 27, 2013)

eh, I liked it

had some decent Rin/Luvia interaction, that's always a plus 

didn't know there was a Drei though


----------



## Boomy (Jan 27, 2013)

Gilgamesh takes a bread and gives it to HST, the bread is in fact Noble Phantasm that vaporizes the souls


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 27, 2013)

So, consensus is Team Fate with Gil takes it, but what about without? I think with Excalibur and Avalon, they stand a pretty good chance.


----------



## Kazu (Jan 27, 2013)




----------



## Boomy (Jan 27, 2013)

So Illya is Mahou Shoujo there...?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 27, 2013)

BoomBaeBoom said:


> So Illya is Mahou Shoujo there...?


yes

her and another one (there are probably more too that I forgot)






MAPSK said:


> So, consensus is Team Fate with Gil takes it, but what about without? I think with Excalibur and Avalon, they stand a pretty good chance.


my "consensus" for Gil is in post #3, won't pretend to be able to sort out that clusterfuck .. if he goes for Ea immediately then I would say flip a coin maybe .. if not then favor HST


w/o Gil they lose, Avalon will just help Saber last a bit longer


----------



## Stix (Jan 27, 2013)

Excalibur as BP.

*Spoiler*: __ 









And keep in mind that this is Kuro(Ilya) who's own version was able to overpowered the original. Not like we haven't seen imitation defeating original before though 

*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 27, 2013)

also, Prisma Ilya is getting an anime


----------



## Boomy (Jan 27, 2013)

It's nice to see Luvia, she needs more interactions with Rin


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 27, 2013)

BoomBaeBoom said:


> It's nice to see Luvia, she needs more interactions with Rin


oh yeah


----------



## Rene (Jan 27, 2013)

BoomBaeBoom said:


> If it's in character then nope.
> 
> But knowing him he has some cheap shield to block any attack


Doesn't Gil have Yata's mirror or some shit like that?



MAPSK said:


> Gil. Gil would.


He actually wouldn't, he values his treasury too much.



BoomBaeBoom said:


> He wouldn't. Unlike other "trash" in his stock he considered Excalibur to be quite treasure.
> 
> edit: aren't there like 2 chapters of Fate/Illya?


Unless I remember correctly he values anything in his treasury quite highly as it is, obviously to different degrees.

The only time I remember him completely disregarding something from GOB is when he fired noble phantasms at Caster's monster.


----------



## Qinglong (Jan 27, 2013)

He values it up until it comes into contact with Cthulhu monsters

Juubi could qualify based on looks obviously


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 27, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> So, consensus is Team Fate with Gil takes it, but what about without? I think with Excalibur and Avalon, they stand a pretty good chance.



wait what 

How did you gather that at all?

Juubi lolstomps them until someone shows me where any Servants have shown the ability to run for multiple kilometres at Triple digit Mach speeds.


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 27, 2013)

> Juubi could qualify based on looks obviously



_*Gilgamesh:*_ Ewww... what is that thing?

_*Saber:*_ Does it matter, Gilgamesh?! Quickly, slay it!

_*Gilgamesh:*_ Eh.... no. I don't think so. It would dirty my things.

_*Saber:*_

_*Gilgamesh:*_ Come then, kyōken. Let us return to our walk.

_*Lancelot:*_ *growls incoherently as he struggles with his leash*


----------



## AliceKumo (Jan 27, 2013)

Nightbringer said:


> wait what
> 
> How did you gather that at all?
> 
> Juubi lolstomps them until someone shows me where any Servants have shown the ability to run for multiple kilometres at Triple digit Mach speeds.



Given that they have Ea, better reactions and Viman, they probably don't have to for the Gil scenario,


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 27, 2013)

Pretty much. And again, Avalon. Kinda hard to hit something that's in another dimension.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 27, 2013)

What does Avalon do then?

I gather transports them to another dimension.

Can they attack from there?

If not then they have BFR'd themselves, thanks for playing, better luck next time.

How much time does Ea take to activate?


----------



## Qinglong (Jan 27, 2013)

It sends you to a layered dimension you can return from just as quickly

Can't attack from it though

Going by willy's post, slightly longer than Excalibur.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 27, 2013)

So they hide in a dimension to do what exactly?

Juubi will attack just as fast when they appear as when the match starts.


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 27, 2013)

I thought you would've known what Avalon does, Nightbringer. Isn't that Seibah in your avvie?

And don't those bijuudama take some noticeable amount of time to charge? I know the projectile itself is mach 160, but I'm pretty sure Saber isn't dumb enough to just sit there thinking, "Oh look, it's gathering some kind of energy around its mouth. Should I use Avalon? .... naaaahhhh" while it's charging its lazer (if you pardon the outdated meme).


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 27, 2013)

Only the massive ones require charge time.

So let me revise my statement.

Unless the Servants can run in any direction for a hundred meters or so at triple digit mach speed then a BB will screw them.


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 27, 2013)

Enuma Elish can be activated about as fast as Gilgamesh calls out the technique's name.
Albeit versions with larger AoE, like the one which consumed Rider's Reality Marble, would need a slightly longer charge time (or just Gilgamesh tried to be an ass by giving Iskander false hopes of winning, most likely both).

Anyways, the only problem here is with the range.
At 20 meters the Servants are technically right in front of the Juubi and hundreds of other characters.
It's a tactically very disadvantageous situation.

If they'd have a major speed advantage though, this situation could be turned extremely in their favor.
Just remember the Juubi vs Negimaverse thread and my suggestion about using the Juubi's own massive body as a blast shield against a "point blank" attack.
Since the members of the HST are so thightly packed, the Juubi Bomb would kill all of them while leaving the enemy team unharmed.
Turning the fight into one versus many.

But that's not the case with speed.
BTW, what happened to the Mach 60+ Juubi calc HachibiWaka had made about a month ago?
Did it became invalid?


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 27, 2013)

It became Mach 160+ I think.

Are we talking about the beam speed one?


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 27, 2013)

No, that was derived from the Juubi's second stage blasts.
HachibiWaka's calc was from the first time when the Juubi appeared.
Admittedly, I don't remember the specifics, though.


----------



## Qinglong (Jan 27, 2013)

Blitzing BM Naruto from several kilometers was it?


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 27, 2013)

There's a difference? 

Well, then what's the payload of a smaller one? Both Gilgamesh and Seibah have roughly town level durability backing them up, plus shields from GoB and Caster.


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 27, 2013)

@Quinglong: Yeah, something like that.
But blitzing superhuman characters isn't exactly a legal background for a calc.
There was something else which Waka measured.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 27, 2013)

I don't remember any thing other than that. 

Of course Juubi being like a kilometer tall sort of implies MHS movement but we don't accept that reasoning for concrete stuff IIRC.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 27, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> There's a difference?
> 
> Well, then what's the payload of a smaller one? Both Gilgamesh and Seibah have roughly town level durability backing them up, plus shields from GoB and Caster.



The smaller ones are Small Island level.

The charged ones of BM Naruto are High end Island Level and Juubi tanked it without a scratch.

Juubi's own charged ones are country level ~80ish teratons or so I think.


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 27, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> There's a difference?
> 
> Well, then what's the payload of a smaller one? Both Gilgamesh and Seibah have roughly town level durability backing them up, plus shields from GoB and Caster.


Would you actually lurk the OBD instead of using the old wiki as your debating reasource?

Both Saber and Gilgamesh has city level durability.
Saber can tank at least 24.6 megatons while Gilgamesh can take the multitude of that (tanking Saber's megaton level slashes by the hundreds, requiring a point-blank Excaliblast slash to surely penetrate his armor, triple digit megatons+slash = island level actual DC).


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 27, 2013)

I'm just starting out here man, okay? Cut me some slack.


----------



## Qinglong (Jan 27, 2013)

At least check blogs at the very minimum. And not use oldwiki other than a guide, it's not a bible and much of the information is outdated.


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 27, 2013)

@MAPSK: I would, if this fact about Servant's DC and durability havien't been nailed down at least a few dozen times in this month alone.
You have to be nearly blind to never notice it.
Which is weird given you participated in at least half of these.



Qinglong said:


> At least check blogs at the very minimum. And  not use oldwiki other than a guide, it's not a bible and much of the  information is outdated.


Yeah, and the new wiki is still incomplete.
The new interface and tools make many old contributors uncomfortable. (Including me).

On the other hand I keep the Nasu-related powers semi-updated on the DFW wiki.
I'm actually liking the style of the DFW profiles even more.
It allows more information. (And thus requires 3 times the work to complete one).


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 27, 2013)

Hell, the wiki suggests you lurk the site before posting to get a feel for the forum anyway.

That'd include the blogs and shit, given that's where a fair bit of shit is done and all.

@Willy - if you ever get the chance, once overing the nasu profiles on the new wiki would be awesome I figure.

Did some calcs and shit and all, but that doesn't mean I have a full grasp of the feats/powerscaling the verse has going for it


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 27, 2013)

You forgot to restrict Itachi. 

Spite thread.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 27, 2013)

Huh, forgot you even posted Nikushimi.

Figured you had finally gotten bored or some shit.


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 27, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> At least check blogs at the very minimum. And not use oldwiki other than a guide, it's not a bible and much of the information is outdated.



I'll keep it in mind. And what blogs are we referring to? Like I said, I'm new here. I wasn't aware there were any blogs for this kind of thing.



willyvereb said:


> @MAPSK: I would, if this fact about Servant's DC and durability havien't been nailed down at least a few dozen times in this month alone.
> You have to be nearly blind to never notice it.



Did this happen in these blogs I'm not aware of? I remember there being a few Servant related threads since I've joined, but I don't remember any of them getting too in depth on the topic (aside that one which devolved into a discussion involving Gae Bolg's DC)


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 27, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Hell, the wiki suggests you lurk the site before posting to get a feel for the forum anyway.
> 
> That'd include the blogs and shit, given that's where a fair bit of shit is done and all.
> 
> ...


As I said above I'm keeping the Nasu profiles semi-updated in the DFW Wiki.

I said it a few times but I like the layout of the DFW character profiles more.
It allows you to describe the character's stats in more detail and even has space for posting scans and such.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 27, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Huh, forgot you even posted Nikushimi.
> 
> Figured you had finally gotten bored or some shit.



It does get a little boring waiting for someone to come along who can present a challenge to Itachi.

But it honestly hasn't been that long since the last time I posted around here, lol. You just haven't noticed.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 27, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> As I said above I'm keeping the Nasu profiles semi-updated in the DFW Wiki.
> 
> I said it a few times but I like the layout of the DFW character profiles more.
> It allows you to describe the character's stats in more detail and even has space for posting scans and such.



Haven't been reading the whole thread, so fair enough.

I suppose I can glance over what you did and fit it to the OBD wiki's style.



Nikushimi said:


> It does get a little boring waiting for someone to come along who can present a challenge to Itachi.



I'm sure it does 



> But it honestly hasn't been that long since the last time I posted around here, lol. You just haven't noticed.



Your material must be getting stale if I didn't notice you posting recently.

After all, even a year ago there was typically some acknowledgement else where that you were posting your usual shit and all


----------



## Qinglong (Jan 27, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> I'll keep it in mind. And what blogs are we referring to? Like I said, I'm new here. I wasn't aware there were any blogs for this kind of thing.
> 
> 
> 
> Did this happen in these blogs I'm not aware of? I remember there being a few Servant related threads since I've joined, but I don't remember any of them getting too in depth on the topic (aside that one which devolved into a discussion involving Gae Bolg's DC)



Right next to user CP at the top of the screen is where you can look through blogs. You can do it manually or search (60 second wait time). You should also probably familiarize yourself with Blogs of people who do calcs alot, Like Brohan GodMovement Wombat CT123 Willy Waka Nightbringer Flutter Cable EM (does mostly comic calcs iirc) etc.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 27, 2013)

Don't forget the old ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) that no longer post (I give him another few months honestly ) like Cableguy15 and shit dude 

Fucker's still got a few dozen blogs to his name with shit we still use around here.


----------



## Qinglong (Jan 27, 2013)

Yeah I remembered Cable when I went to do the laundry 

Still thinking I'm forgetting someone, although GGnK (he needs a shorter name) was doing some dragonball ones recently


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 27, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Haven't been reading the whole thread, so fair enough.
> 
> I suppose I can glance over what you did and fit it to the OBD wiki's style.
> 
> ...



Well, to be honest I may have to revisit those profiles again.

Currently, I'm struggling to make sense the differences between the Servants' physical power and actual ability to penetrate stuff.

My first suggestion was for concentrated power but I fear that would allow too much freedom for a few weird powerscaling attempts in the Nasuverse.

My newest idea is to make distinction between the physical effects of the attack and the "mystery" behind it.

Physical effects are like when the air pressure of Saber's slashes blew away a warehouse's metal walls. Or when Berserker squashed away a low-powered Excaliblast.

Mystery is the concentrated magical force behind the attacks. Kind of like a hidden focused DC that allows to penetrate stuff even though it physically shouldn't.
Imagine it as pouring magic energy into a small concentrated area to make way for the actual attack.
Or as some sort of "wavelength/vibration" that allows less impressive attacks to pass durability levels which they otherwise shouldn't.

With this latter theory I can explain the weird stuff in the Nasuverse more effectively.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 27, 2013)

Go for it, not like we're in a rush dude 

Wiki's looking to be completely reuploaded in maybe a year and all


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 27, 2013)

Dastan calcs some stuff. 

RH does as well but I gather that's not what you were looking for.


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 27, 2013)

Nightbringer said:


> RH does as well but I gather that's not what you were looking for.


He would look for calcs which we actually use in OBD debates so RH is certainly out of question.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 27, 2013)

A few of his have been accepted.


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 27, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> Right next to user CP at the top of the screen is where you can look through blogs. You can do it manually or search (60 second wait time). You should also probably familiarize yourself with Blogs of people who do calcs alot, Like Brohan GodMovement Wombat CT123 Willy Waka Nightbringer Flutter Cable EM (does mostly comic calcs iirc) etc.



Thanks.



willyvereb said:


> Well, to be honest I may have to revisit those profiles again.
> 
> Currently, I'm struggling to make sense the differences between the Servants' physical power and actual ability to penetrate stuff.
> 
> ...



Explaining the Nasuverse is a rather Sisyphean task, willy. Although that's a legitimately interesting theory. Props


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 27, 2013)

Anyways, as things goes in Mahoyo, Rin having city level concentrated magic attacks no longer seems to be as bewildering as it originally was.
So the "weird powerscaling" thing seems to get partially justified.

Aoko has an at least low end town level attack.
And that was with her inexperienced self who would have no chance against Touko.
Touko is barely above average, as far as magic potential goes.
She's just extremely skilled.

Your average Nasuverse mage may not be as weak as we initially thought.

Same for Caster and her possibly having city level concentrated DC.
Caster could beat current Aoko who reached her max potential.
So the very least giving her town level DC now.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 27, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Your material must be getting stale if I didn't notice you posting recently.
> 
> After all, even a year ago there was typically some acknowledgement else where that you were posting your usual shit and all



I'd rather blame it on other peoples' material about me getting stale instead. 

That said, let's just pretend Itachi took a sick day and decided to sit this one out. To make things fair.


----------



## Montanz (Jan 27, 2013)

Since when do servants have city level slashes?
l thought they were around city block level in pure physical power.


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 27, 2013)

It's not that they have city level slashes, their slashes can just hurt people with city level durability due to some special penetration mechanism. Seibah swinging her sword does not collapse a city, or even a city block.


----------



## Crimson King (Jan 27, 2013)

know what? I'm gonna just watch. With popcorn


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## MAPSK (Jan 27, 2013)

I'm backing out of this "what can Servants tank" discussion should it go any further. Ask willy about this durability thing, it's his theory. I'm just paraphrasing. As we've established, I often get my info from less than trustworthy places


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## Crimson King (Jan 27, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> ... Unless you use Excalibur, that is



Excaliblast was blocked by Berserker in a bad end


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## MAPSK (Jan 27, 2013)

Because Bazaka is a MAN!


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## willyvereb (Jan 27, 2013)

Or using her Prana Burst at full power.
She matched Berserker who could squash away a weakly charged Excaliblast with relative ease.
Said attack was surely more powerful than Shirou's inferior replica (3-5 megatons).
And since it could still kill Berserker once (if it hit), that attack was potentially in the double digit megatons.

Heracles and those in league with him in strength could deliver such attacks.


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## MAPSK (Jan 27, 2013)

He'd better be able to considering those massive biceps. Those things could run a solo career as minifridges


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## Montanz (Jan 27, 2013)

> It's not that they have city level slashes, their slashes can just hurt people with city level durability due to some special penetration mechanism.


ok.
l thought people meant they had city level power behind their normal slashing attacks.


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## Kazu (Jan 27, 2013)

I think we should have a Nasu convo thread. 
Because lately, almost every thread lately that has a nasu character in it becomes super inflated.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 27, 2013)

Nasuverse can get pretty convoluted with how things work. It's why these threads usually turn into "Nasu threads"


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## willyvereb (Jan 27, 2013)

It isn't like other threads doesn't have an off-topic discussion in them.
Also this isn't "recently".
Matches involving the Nasuverse turned into Nasuverse discussion threads ALL the time.
There are hardly any exceptions to this rule.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 28, 2013)

Kazuakisama said:


> Because lately, almost every thread lately that has a nasu character in it becomes super inflated.


I'm ok with that




> Your material must be getting stale


have to agree with Chaos here 





Qinglong said:


> You should also probably familiarize yourself with Blogs of *people who do calcs a lot*, Like Brohan GodMovement Wombat CT123 Willy Waka Nightbringer *Flutter* Cable EM (does mostly comic calcs iirc) etc.


nope


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## willyvereb (Jan 28, 2013)

Well, I've also got lazy doing calcs myself.
I should get back into the mood sometime soon.


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## Boomy (Jan 28, 2013)

@willy, by mystery you mean conceptual damage? This's pretty much impossible to check.


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## Qinglong (Jan 28, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> I'm ok with that
> 
> 
> have to agree with Chaos here
> ...



You're always around so you might as well be listed


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## Sygurgh (Jan 28, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> This is it fo me today
> the dark lord is taking over
> gona need sleeep to stop impulse
> see u soo n hopefully





Whoaaa.
I must really have been out of it last night.
I vaguely remember posting in this thread.


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## MAPSK (Jan 28, 2013)

Dude, you sounded like you were fucking high. And I don' mean normal high, I mean "more baked than a potato" high.


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## Sygurgh (Jan 28, 2013)

What is the maximum calculated speed of Pegasus?
I made a very rough Mach 6 calculation with the last opening of the visual novel.


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## Stix (Jan 28, 2013)

AFAIK never been calc. IIRC It was stated to be 400km/h so mach 0.3 

That mach 6 calc would be quite a boost.


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## Crimson King (Jan 28, 2013)

so, what's the point of bringing up the  pegasus' speed?


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## ikoke (Jan 28, 2013)

Off topic question:

The game profile says that you need high MGI to resist Medusa's Mystic Eyes of Petrification. When she is matched against verses like YYH or Nardo,which have their own magical energy systems it's easy to see that high/top tiers can probably avoid being petrified thanks to their high reserves.

But if Medusa uses her eyes against someone from OP/Project Arms(or some other verse that has no magical energy to equalize with prana) do we assume that her eyes will work on everybody from those verses?


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## willyvereb (Jan 28, 2013)

Actually, no.
Most verses lack the inherent magic resistance which goes along with power in the Nasuverse.
The only examples I can think of are Negima and SDK where higher energy directly equaled resistance to magic effects.


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## Xelloss (Jan 28, 2013)

Bleach more or less lesser Reitsu can't harm a higher source. Slayers use a similar system also.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 28, 2013)

Rider would stone HST

don't know about YYH


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## Qinglong (Jan 28, 2013)

Xelloss said:


> Bleach more or less lesser Reitsu can't harm a higher source. Slayers use a similar system also.



Outside of the instance with Aizen and Sui Feng stronger characters get hit by hax several times in Bleach, so lolkubo.


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## Xelloss (Jan 28, 2013)

Well Kenpachi also count and he explain it... then again I can also say lol nasu and his retcons.


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## Qinglong (Jan 28, 2013)

Yeah it's like Kubo started out with it then forgot his own concept except when it conveniantly blocks an instant kill technique


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jan 28, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> Outside of the instance with Aizen and Sui Feng stronger characters get hit by hax several times in Bleach, so lolkubo.





Xelloss said:


> Well Kenpachi also count and he explain it... then again I can also say lol nasu and his retcons.



Hollowfied Tousen getting one shotted by Hisagi. That is all.


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## Sablés (Jan 28, 2013)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Hollowfied Tousen getting one shotted by Hisagi. That is all.



Always having to explain this.

Shinigami/hollows need to concentrate reiatsu to boost stats. They have shit durability when caught off guard.


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## willyvereb (Jan 29, 2013)

Sabl?s said:


> Always having to explain this.
> 
> Shinigami/hollows need to concentrate reiatsu to boost stats. They have shit durability when caught off guard.


Does it mean they're exceptionally weak against speedblitzes?

I mean retarded levels like a building buster taking out Bleach top tiers.
Not like it matters for most characters they face but that's a new low for Bleach's power.

Anyways, Rider's eyes can effortlessly stone Average Servants and the energy of those would average in the 6.6 to 24.6 megaton range (even if they lack concepts to actualize this power for such physical destruction).
Or I can mention that Rider's Pegasus potentially had 2/3rd of Excvalibur's 380+ megatons of power. Meaning the strength of her Cybele could be at similar level.

So "resistance" or not, Bleach characters still get turned into stone.


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## Qinglong (Jan 29, 2013)

What about with Yammy vs Yoruichi? I'm pretty sure she caught him off guard.


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## Sygurgh (Jan 29, 2013)

I choose the best pictures.
I didn't spare a single pixel.
Lo and behold, Mach 38 Pegasus.



I dare say that if this calculation is accepted, Rider will become a force to be reckoned with.


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## DestinyDestroyer (Jan 29, 2013)

I suppose the catchphrase "Mothers, children and mongrels gonna get Gate of Babylowned" comes in handy here


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## Qinglong (Jan 29, 2013)

@syurgh blog that


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 29, 2013)

already asked Chaos to take a look at that feat

he said whenever


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jan 29, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> I choose the best pictures.
> I didn't spare a single pixel.
> Lo and behold, Mach 38 Pegasus.
> 
> ...



I'm assuming F/HA cuz I never seen this in Fate.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jan 29, 2013)

Sabl?s said:


> Always having to explain this.
> 
> Shinigami/hollows need to concentrate reiatsu to boost stats. They have shit durability when caught off guard.





willyvereb said:


> Does it mean they're exceptionally weak against speedblitzes?
> 
> I mean retarded levels like a building buster taking out Bleach top tiers.
> Not like it matters for most characters they face but that's a new low for Bleach's power.



With this notion, Roberta from Black Lagoon could bust a cap in Ichigo's ass if she was like 20 times fast because she caught him "off guard".

Which is perfectly fine cuz no one gives a shit about Bleach.


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## Sygurgh (Jan 29, 2013)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> I'm assuming F/HA cuz I never seen this in Fate.



It’s one of the new Fate/stay night openings made by Ufotable for the release of the game on PlayStation Vita.

which blows a larger hole in the wall.
There is a new song but YouTube deleted all the videos.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 29, 2013)

> Shinigami/hollows need to concentrate reiatsu to boost stats. They have shit durability when caught off guard.


when was this said ?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 29, 2013)

btw how long does it take to summon Pegasus ?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jan 29, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> It’s one of the new Fate/stay night openings made by Ufotable for the release of the game on PlayStation Vita.



Oh yeah, got those songs. Another Heaven da best.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGbyBmPEXjg[/YOUTUBE]



> btw how long does it take to summon Pegasus ?



The second she says Bellarophon. Which she's done mid fight.


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## OtherGalaxy (Jan 29, 2013)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> With this notion, Roberta from Black Lagoon could bust a cap in Ichigo's ass if she was like 20 times fast because she caught him "off guard".
> 
> *Which is perfectly fine cuz no one gives a shit about Bleach.*



MvC cares


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 29, 2013)

in MvC a single Vice-Captain would solo this match 

considering that their Byakuya and Kenpachi can take on Thor or even Thanos


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## OtherGalaxy (Jan 29, 2013)

Dangai Ichigo is a transcendant being.

Real talk.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 29, 2013)

> The second she says Bellarophon. Which she's done mid fight.


is that neck slashing and bloodletting required or is that something additional ?


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## willyvereb (Jan 29, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> btw how long does it take to summon Pegasus ?


Almost as fast as Saber's Excalibur.

When weakened, she needs to stab herself in the neck and use the blood to form a magic circle.

But apparently there's no such requirement at full power.
She just needs to quickly set up a magic circle in the air and summon her child.
With a slight headstart Rider managed to cast Bellerophon at the same time as Saber Alter finished Excalibur.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jan 29, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> is that neck slashing and bloodletting required or is that something additional ?



Considering she never did that during her fights with Saber. Regular and Alter.

edit:

What ^ he said.


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## Sygurgh (Jan 29, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> is that neck slashing and bloodletting required or is that something additional ?



She used Bellerophon without shedding any blood in the Fate route and at the end of Heaven's Feel route.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 29, 2013)

> *When weakened, she needs to stab herself in the neck* and use the blood to form a magic circle.
> 
> But apparently there's *no such requirement at full power*.


ah, that explains it




> her child


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## Qinglong (Jan 29, 2013)

EDIT: @flutter: Greek Mythology, don't think too hard


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## MAPSK (Jan 29, 2013)

> her child



lol mythology


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## Rene (Jan 29, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> She used Bellerophon without shedding any blood at the end of Heaven's Feel.



Also in Fate when fighting Saber on the rooftop iirc.

Either way Rider is the fastest servant speed wise when under Sakura, so that should count for something.


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## Boomy (Jan 29, 2013)

She needed only two seconds to summon Pegasus in her fight with Saber Alter, so not so long.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jan 29, 2013)

Also probably shits and giggles. She has a slight trollish side to her IIRC.

CP Rider very much so. Especially with a one Shinji.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 29, 2013)

troll Rider is best Rider


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## Rene (Jan 29, 2013)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Also probably shits and giggles. She has a slight trollish side to her IIRC.


Especially when she wants to ride Shirou's number 1 bike.


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## Sygurgh (Jan 29, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


>



She is supposed to have another child.

Greek mythology.
Her neck is a womb.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jan 29, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> troll Rider is best Rider



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M38iRWWQmdc[/YOUTUBE]

3:45+

It's like a soap opera.


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## Kazu (Jan 29, 2013)

Rene said:


> Especially when she wants to ride Shirou's number 1 bike.



Is that what they're calling it these days?


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## OtherGalaxy (Jan 29, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> She is supposed to have another child.
> 
> Greek mythology.
> Her neck is a womb.





> *Her neck is a womb.*





> *Her neck is a womb.*





> *Her neck is a womb.*





> *Her neck is a womb.*


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 29, 2013)

man, Shinji never fails to remind everyone what a dickwad he is


also, CP needs more seasons


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## MAPSK (Jan 29, 2013)

Welcome to Greek mythology. Also, fukken saved.


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## Rene (Jan 29, 2013)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M38iRWWQmdc[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> 3:45+
> 
> It's like a soap opera.


Fucking Lancer. 



Kazuakisama said:


> Is that what they're calling it these days?


----------



## OtherGalaxy (Jan 29, 2013)

Rene said:


> He fucking raped Rider and his own sister. smh



This series is just full of reaction pic inducing moments isn't it


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 29, 2013)

be thankful noone mentioned the
*Spoiler*: __ 



worms


yet OG


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## OtherGalaxy (Jan 29, 2013)

Do I even want to know


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## Boomy (Jan 29, 2013)

I mention worms


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## Amae (Jan 29, 2013)

Tell OG all about the worms.


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## Boomy (Jan 29, 2013)

Dem rape worms


----------



## Rene (Jan 29, 2013)

OtherGalaxy said:


> Do I even want to know



Penis worms man.


----------



## OtherGalaxy (Jan 29, 2013)

Rene said:


> Penis worms man.



I...you know what just


----------



## Qinglong (Jan 29, 2013)

Oh yeah, the worms

One sec on those OG

Yes I saved it, somewhere

EDIT: Here you go:


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## Boomy (Jan 29, 2013)

Orgasm inducing earthworms, in canon.

And here I thought Shinji ass face is surprising.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 29, 2013)

Sakura the Walking Worm Dispenser


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 29, 2013)

was it worth it, Shirou ?


----------



## OtherGalaxy (Jan 29, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> Oh yeah, the worms
> 
> One sec on those OG
> 
> ...



That zoom up


----------



## Sablés (Jan 29, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> when was this said ?



It's never directly stated. All shinigami draw their power from reiatsu and convert it to stats, 

which blows a larger hole in the wall.


Their durability isn't passive like arrancars.

If their durability isn't enhanced, shit like this happens

which blows a larger hole in the wall.

which blows a larger hole in the wall.

Tousen is the perfect example. he catches Koma's bankai with a single arm and has survived one of Kenpachi's slashes in a weaker form yet is outright killed by Hisagi.


----------



## DestinyDestroyer (Jan 29, 2013)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSPKAB70xtg[/YOUTUBE]


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## Sygurgh (Jan 29, 2013)

I need a little advice.
Which one should I use?



In the left image, the red line I used to count the number of pixels is perpendicular to the trajectory. It puts Rider at Mach 52.


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## willyvereb (Jan 29, 2013)

The one which is right angled to the other line.
So...I suppose we have a Mach 52 Pegasus now, huh?


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## MAPSK (Jan 29, 2013)

@OG: Welcome to the Nasuverse. Here's your complimentary brain bleach 

EDIT: And complimentary awesome video of awesomeness:

[YOUTUBE]224WJCAh-pM[/YOUTUBE]


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## Sygurgh (Jan 29, 2013)

It wildly surpassed my expectations.
I started with Mach 6 in mind. I ended up with Mach 52.



[YOUTUBE]ZSdm0rE3nWU[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## AliceKumo (Jan 29, 2013)

So... why does a statement say mach 0.3 and then we get 52?


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## MAPSK (Jan 29, 2013)

Because Nasu.


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