# Kabuto vs. Pain



## Nikushimi (Oct 12, 2013)

*Location:* Kabuto vs. Uchiha Bros.
*Distance:* 5m
*Knowledge:* Full
*Mindset:* In-character
*Conditions/Restrictions:*
-Pain isn't close enough to Nagato to use Chibaku Tensei right away; he has to travel a full kilometer first.
-All six paths are present.
-Kabuto starts in Sage Mode.
-Edo Tensei is in use on other battlefields and isn't available for this fight.
-Gedou Mazo and Manda v2.0 restricted.


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## crisler (Oct 12, 2013)

kabuto takes this.

even if nagato uses CT, kabuto has the durability and regeneration to survive the blast and then come out of it by liquifing his body.

all on top of that, the knowledge and attacks that kabuto has is enough to take on pain.


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## Trojan (Oct 13, 2013)

Pain wins. Kabuto is only a collocation of fodders' level jutsus. without his ET. 
I don't see what kind of jutsu does he have to take pain down!


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## Monna (Oct 13, 2013)

Only real threat would be Tayuya's genjutsu and that's not going to take out all of Pain's bodies.


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## Tsunami (Oct 13, 2013)

Kabuto takes this with better durability, stamina, and regen skillz.


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## Jagger (Oct 13, 2013)

Tsunami said:


> Kabuto takes this with better durability, stamina, and regen skillz.


I very much doubt Kabuto's stamina is higher than Nagato's despite he have no real feats of stamina.



crisler said:


> kabuto takes this.
> 
> even if nagato uses CT, kabuto has the durability and regeneration to survive the blast and then come out of it by liquifing his body.
> 
> all on top of that, the knowledge and attacks that kabuto has is enough to take on pain.


Lolno. Where are you getting that from? Chibaku Tensei pulls *everything* to the core. Why do you believe water is any different from other materials? It will get pulled in easily and the water will slowly being evaporized by the heat produced inside the structure of the giant rock sphere.


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## Turrin (Oct 13, 2013)

So ET isn't restricted? In that case a Kabuto starting in SM should be able to buy enough time to summon out some powerful ET and from there Kabuto wins quite handedly. If ET is suppose to be restricted than Kabuto would probably loose. I don't see any of Kabuto's Jutsu making it past HG + Deva Realms defenses. CQC could offer Kabuto a way to take down a path or two, but he's not going to be able to CQC gg them all. BT + Soul Rip would still kill Kabuto. Cerberous would eventually defeat Manda v2, simply by virtue of splitting, if not ST or Human would take Manda V2 out. So yeah not really seeing enough from Kabuto to grant him the win here w/o ET.


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## kaminogan (Oct 13, 2013)

besides soul suck nagato doesn't have anything to put him down,

kabuto would just turn into goo if nagato gets close,

and he can regen any damage he happens to take, like if asura cut off his tail or something,

actually would asuras laser destroy kabuto ?

turning into goo wont let him survive and he wont be regenerating if every part of his body is destroyed,

nagato could also use chibaku tensei too keep kabuto still then he just shoots his laser while gravity holds kabuto down,


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## Trojan (Oct 13, 2013)

^

he can't heal himself forever.


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## Sans (Oct 13, 2013)

Kabuto stomps.


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## Rocky (Oct 13, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Kabuto stomps.



Pain stomps. :ignoramus


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## Nikushimi (Oct 13, 2013)

Can't believe I forgot to restrict Edo Tensei. Fixed.


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## eyeknockout (Oct 13, 2013)

tayuya's genjutsu filled with sage chakra seems pretty unbeatable for a character like pain. I don't see anyway for him to break out or dodge since it's like jiraiya's sage genjutsu attack, but more versatile, it might even be able to paralyze the real nagato through the sense of sound.


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## kaminogan (Oct 13, 2013)

deva goes on the bird and flies away with animal path,

asura path starts shooting rockets and missiles while ningendo path waits for his chance,

gakido is likely the first to go down,

once naraka revives him thou kabuto will try his best  to defeat him,

once he defeats naraka and gakido asura would try to get a hold of kabuto long enough for ningendo to soul suck,

but then they get summoned by animal path,

then deva uses chibaku tensei sealing a half souled kabuto away so that asura can finish him off with laser canon,

anything thats left will get eaten by naraka or one of the summons,


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## Sans (Oct 13, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Pain stomps. :ignoramus



You are wrong.


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## Rocky (Oct 13, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> You are wrong.




Pretty Much Cihbaku Tensei GG if Pain even decides it has to come to that.


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## Joakim3 (Oct 13, 2013)

The only reason Kabuto could beat the paths was due to the knowledge advantage.... Nagato with full knowledge 

Tendo & Shurado nuke Kabuto off the planet from the jump (along with his cave). From there on its more nuking + _Bansho Ten'in_ hax, blindsides by Ningendo & Gakido via paralyzing chakra rods and an entire summon armada gunning for his head

Worst case, if Kabuto's regen troll becomes annoying....  CT or Gedo Mazo GG 

......Kabuto dies a horrific death


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 13, 2013)

Nagato through the Paths summons Gedo Mazo. GG.


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## Chad (Oct 13, 2013)

Kabuto stomps.

Muki Tensei would swiftly take out Pain's chakra rods.

that or Kabuto just summons an Island sized snake from the sky to completely squash the bodies.


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## kaminogan (Oct 13, 2013)

island sized snake would prob get soul sucked,

 that and its not kabutos MO,

that and the battle takes place in a cave,


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 13, 2013)

Bogard said:


> Kabuto stomps.
> 
> Muki Tensei would swiftly take out Pain's chakra rods.
> 
> that or Kabuto just summons an Island sized snake from the sky to completely squash the bodies.


Shinra Tensei effectively counters Muki Tensei and Kabuto's left vulnerable afterwards. And Manda 2, despite its size, is really just a big target Bogard.


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## Chad (Oct 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Shinra Tensei effectively counters Muki Tensei and Kabuto's left vulnerable afterwards. And Manda 2, despite its size, is really just a big target Bogard.



..

How is ST going to stop Kabuto from giving life force to the chakra rods and pulling them out?

So what is Pain going to do if Kabuto summons the snake from the sky much like in this fashion? Remember that the bigger they are, the harder they fall. The bigger they are, the faster that they accelerate.


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## kaminogan (Oct 13, 2013)

the snake would hit the cave killing them all


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## Chad (Oct 13, 2013)

kaminogan said:


> the snake would hit the cave killing them all





Kabuto can dive deep underground to ensure his safety. 

Or he can just liquify. 

Or he can just use fire shunshin to get out of the way.


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## kaminogan (Oct 13, 2013)

nice come back,

i guess kabuto stomps then


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## Jagger (Oct 13, 2013)

^ That was the easiest debate ever.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 13, 2013)

Gedou Mazo and Manda v2.0 restricted.

It's almost like some people want to discuss anything EXCEPT the characters who are supposed to be fighting in this match... 

I'm surprised nobody even mentioned Hakugeki.


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## BurningVegeta (Oct 13, 2013)

Jane Crocker said:


> Only real threat would be Tayuya's genjutsu and that's not going to take out all of Pain's bodies.


What is your reasoning that it isn't going to take out all of Pein's bodies. I would imagine since all the bodies are actually linked to Nagato, it might even put him inside the Genjutsu. Either way, how would some of the Pein bodies hear it and be subject to it but the other's aren't?


Jagger said:


> I very much doubt Kabuto's stamina is higher than Nagato's despite he have no real feats of stamina.


Why will he get tired when he is automatically absorbing chakra from his surroundings. After all he isn't using his existing stamina to make chakra.


> Lolno. Where are you getting that from? Chibaku Tensei pulls *everything* to the core. Why do you believe water is any different from other materials? It will get pulled in easily and the water will slowly being evaporized by the heat produced inside the structure of the giant rock sphere.


That is true, but Kabuto will easily escape the construct being purely water, he can easily seep through the Chibaku Tensei's final construction. As we know the Chibaku Tensei doesn't kill the target.

The fact Kabuto can just use Sage Art: Inorganic Reincarnation negates Chibaku Tensei though. Kabuto is the earth and the sea with this jutsu, lol.


kaminogan said:


> deva goes on the bird and flies away with animal path,
> 
> asura path starts shooting rockets and missiles while ningendo path waits for his chance,
> 
> ...


Everything you've said is negated by the fact Kabuto can become water and is literally phasing through everything you've said would tackle him like Deva's laser and rockets.


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## Rocky (Oct 13, 2013)

BurningVegeta said:


> What is your reasoning that it isn't going to take out all of Pein's bodies. I would imagine since all the bodies are actually linked to Nagato, it might even put him inside the Genjutsu. Either way, how would some of the Pein bodies hear it and be subject to it but the other's aren't?.




Mugen Onsa does not negate the usage of Jutsu. If Pain is captured, he destroys the cave with repulsion force that disabled all three members of the Gama Trio simultaneously. Alternatively, he could use the beams of Shurado Pain, which were capable of leveling entire blocks oh Konoha.

The ensuing chaos should be enough to disrupt Kabuto's hold over them.



> That is true, but Kabuto will easily escape the construct being purely water, he can easily seep through the Chibaku Tensei's final construction. As we know the Chibaku Tensei doesn't kill the target.




Kabuto is not strong enough to resist the gravitational pull of Chibaku Tensei, and becoming water does not change that. Water is affected by gravity too.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 13, 2013)

Hakugeki and Tayuya's genjutsu are both  in character moves that hard counter pain.

Pain will lose unless he acts out of character and uses big moves off the bat.


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## Joakim3 (Oct 13, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> Hakugeki and Tayuya's genjutsu are both  in character moves that hard counter pain.
> 
> Pain will lose unless he acts out of character and uses big moves off the bat.



And its IC for Nagato to start nuking the him or his paths are threatened.... and thats with no knowledge.

Nagato has FULL knowledge in this match, do you really think he's going to simply _let_ Kabuto use _Hakugeki_ or Tayuya's genjutsu? Kabuto and his damn cave are going to be nuked to hell and back


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 13, 2013)

Hakugeki and Tayuya's genjutsu are both quicker to pull out than either CST or CT.


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## Jagger (Oct 13, 2013)

BurningVegeta said:


> Why will he get tired when he is automatically absorbing chakra from his surroundings. After all he isn't using his existing stamina to make chakra.


Except in order to use Senjutsu you need to balance your chakra reserves with the natural energy around you. As you can see, if you gather too much natural energy, you will become a statue like it almost happened to Naruto during his training or to Preta Path. Sage Mode does have a limit or else, Naruto wouldn't never stop using it or Hashirama as well. Kabuto's chakra reserves are limited. Yes, they're high considering all his DNA modifications, but to put it on the same level as Nagato? I don't believe so.

Once Kabuto starts running out of chakra, he wouldn't be capable of mainting SM anymore.



> That is true, but Kabuto will easily escape the construct being purely water, he can easily seep through the Chibaku Tensei's final construction. As we know the Chibaku Tensei doesn't kill the target.
> 
> The fact Kabuto can just use Sage Art: Inorganic Reincarnation negates Chibaku Tensei though. Kabuto is the earth and the sea with this jutsu, lol.


This all gets debunked by the fact water is affected by gravity as well like rocks and trees.


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## kaminogan (Oct 13, 2013)

BurningVegeta said:


> What is your reasoning that it isn't going to take out all of Pein's bodies. I would imagine since all the bodies are actually linked to Nagato, it might even put him inside the Genjutsu. Either way, how would some of the Pein bodies hear it and be subject to it but the other's aren't?
> Why will he get tired when he is automatically absorbing chakra from his surroundings. After all he isn't using his existing stamina to make chakra.
> That is true, but Kabuto will easily escape the construct being purely water, he can easily seep through the Chibaku Tensei's final construction. As we know the Chibaku Tensei doesn't kill the target.
> 
> ...



deva  doesn't have lasers,

and a laser would work on kabuto,

a rockets explosion would also damage kanuto,


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## BurningVegeta (Oct 14, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Mugen Onsa does not negate the usage of Jutsu. If Pain is captured, he destroys the cave with repulsion force that disabled all three members of the Gama Trio simultaneously. Alternatively, he could use the beams of Shurado Pain, which were capable of leveling entire blocks oh Konoha.
> 
> The ensuing chaos should be enough to disrupt Kabuto's hold over them.


I have no idea why you're relating this to Kabuto using his Demonic Flute Genjutsu. As for what you've said though Kabuto said it stops movement... that is pretty much 100% stops anyone that doesn't use Doujutsu. No movement no Deva Path Jutsu, no Asura Path projectiles, no summons from Animal Path.


> Kabuto is not strong enough to resist the gravitational pull of Chibaku Tensei, and becoming water does not change that. Water is affected by gravity too.


I'm not retarded... you should realise if Kabuto becomes water he'll be unaffected by the entirety of Chibaku Tensei, just like how the Trollkage did to Gaara's seal. Kabuto will seep through it once the jutsu is over, once over they'll be no gravitational pull as shown here and the Chibaku Tensei isn't something Nagato can use on a whim. Once he uses it and Kabuto escapes, it is pretty much game over for him.


kaminogan said:


> deva  doesn't have lasers,
> 
> and a laser would work on kabuto,
> 
> a rockets explosion would also damage kanuto,


That shit won't hurt a man made out of water, son.


Jagger said:


> Except in order to use Senjutsu you need to balance your chakra reserves with the natural energy around you. As you can see, if you gather too much natural energy, you will become a statue like it almost happened to Naruto during his training or to Preta Path. Sage Mode does have a limit or else, Naruto wouldn't never stop using it or Hashirama as well. Kabuto's chakra reserves are limited. Yes, they're high considering all his DNA modifications, but to put it on the same level as Nagato? I don't believe so.


Kabuto did not show any signs of tiredness or his Sage Mode fading and he used a lot of jutsu.


> Once Kabuto starts running out of chakra, he wouldn't be capable of mainting SM anymore.


That's the point, he won't run out and he is passively absorbing it. You're assuming Kabuto's sage mode works the same as Naruto's it doesn't Kabuto's is better in terms of movement and absorption. 


> This all gets debunked by the fact water is affected by gravity as well like rocks and trees.


Even though I know Kabuto would counter this with his Hydrofication Jutsu, just like Trollkage did to Gaara's Sand Sealing. What makes you think that will kill Kabuto or Pein will even use it, he is trying to kill Kabuto here... not seal him to suck out his jinchuuriki Chakra.


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## kaminogan (Oct 14, 2013)

this is why nagato/asura would shoot kabuto with the laser while hes in chibaku tensei,

basically nagatos super in ninja storm three,


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## Alex Payne (Oct 14, 2013)

Bansho Tennin is faster than Kabuto's moves. At 5 meters Kabuto might not even able to throw a counter while being pulled into Human Path soulrip(or whatever). Knowledge helps but his only viable options is to use his ass-snake to grab something. And even then he is still under the effect of Almighty Pull with 5 other Paths free to use their stuff. 

Tayuya's genjutsu only stops physical movement(as evident by Shikamaru using ninjutsu and Uchiha Bros using MS). So Deva, Asura and Preta can still use their abilities. Or simply stop Kabuto before he fully activates it(like Deva did to Fukusaku). 

Haguheki is dangerous but with knowledge Deva can dispel it with ST(that white dragon takes a little while to activate) unless 5 secs. And even after successful use we saw Itachi being able to use Susano(complex ability that requires high-level concentration). Most of Rinnegan abilities are "easier" to use for Nagato than Susano. So again - Pain with possible counters.

Muki Tensei is the most dangerous ability here imo. But with Kabuto's initial disadvantage and full knowledge I see Pain ending the fight early or busting that cave with summons/rocket limiting MT's use.

The rest of his arsenal doesn't stack up to 6 Paths' combined arsenal. Kabuto can win but he needs to play it completely differently from his vs Uchiha fight(with stealth and smart tactics, not IMMA DRAGON HURR DURR).

Kabuto needs knowledge advantage(full for him and none for Pain) for decisive wins imo. Longer distance too.


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## Joakim3 (Oct 14, 2013)

BurningVegeta said:


> I have no idea why you're relating this to Kabuto using his Demonic Flute Genjutsu. As for what you've said though Kabuto said it stops movement... that is pretty much 100% stops anyone that doesn't use Doujutsu. No movement no Deva Path Jutsu, no Asura Path projectiles, no summons from Animal Path.



It does not stop movement, in the sense that Itachi & Sasuke still turned their head to look at each other during the genjutsu. Nagato's mastered genjutsu, hell he canonically put genjutsu barriers inside his subordinates minds, and it took ages for Ino's father to break them. 

Worst case scenario he deactivates a path or two, severs the genjutsu link and reanimates them within a matter of moments to defend the others (assuming all are even caught at once since Nagato's knows all to well about the lethality of sound genjutsu)



BurningVegeta said:


> I'm not retarded... you should realise if Kabuto becomes water he'll be unaffected by the entirety of Chibaku Tensei, just like how the Trollkage did to Gaara's seal. Kabuto will seep through it once the jutsu is over, once over they'll be no gravitational pull as shown here and the



Um you think Kabuto can stay like that forever? It's not a passive technique like Suigetsu or Trollkage. He has to keep active for the ENTIRE duration of CT. Second how does Kabuto seep through CT? Does he magically stop being affected by gravity as well? He's not going anywhere until either Nagato dies from chakra exhaustion or he does



BurningVegeta said:


> Chibaku Tensei isn't something Nagato can use on a whim. Once he uses it and Kabuto escapes, it is pretty much game over for him.



That was a half dead Nagato after fighting a village & Naruto, and trying to contain Kurama out of all things. He can make a CT 1/10th that size and it would still be beyond overkill to deal with Kabuto... and he'd be able to hold that far longer than Kabuto could hold _Sukia no Jutsu_



BurningVegeta said:


> That shit won't hurt a man made out of water, son.



Who can't stay in that form forever.... this is assuming he isn't evaporated due to the pressure and heat inside the core 



BurningVegeta said:


> Kabuto did not show any signs of tiredness or his Sage Mode fading and he used a lot of jutsu.
> That's the point, he won't run out and he is passively absorbing it. You're assuming Kabuto's sage mode works the same as Naruto's it doesn't Kabuto's is better in terms of movement and absorption.



That still doesn't mean he's anywhere close to the reserves of Nagato.... were talking about a man who when severely weakened has chakra comparable to Biju's. Kabuto is not winning a game of attrition

This is where your wrong though. He can *very much run out of SM* if he's using SM chakra to defend himself faster than he's taking it in, something that would be happening when he's fighting 6 people attacking from 6 different directions with techs more hax than his own



BurningVegeta said:


> Even though I know Kabuto would counter this with his Hydrofication Jutsu, just like Trollkage did to Gaara's Sand Sealing. What makes you think that will kill Kabuto or Pein will even use it, he is trying to kill Kabuto here... not seal him to suck out his jinchuuriki Chakra.



Trollkage countered it because gravity wasn't ripping him apart... and keeping that way. 

Kabuto wouldn't even survive on the surface of CT. He would be reduced to a puddle of goo and then that would be stretched and pulled into the core as well never being able to reform again based on the fact it was ripping Naruto's KN6 cloak... *apart*

Do your really think CT can't, or hasn't be used with lethal intent? Nagato is a mentally unstable time bomb with the patience level of a 5 year old. Kabuto is getting nuked if it comes down to it no questions asked


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## Veracity (Oct 14, 2013)

Not saying Kabuto wins, but this should be looked upon; here


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## puma21 (Oct 14, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> Hakugeki and Tayuya's genjutsu are both quicker to pull out than either CST or CT.



He has full knowledge, Tayuya's genjutsu is a non factor like how frog song was a non factor against sm Naruto. If he see's the signs of the genjutsu he'll immediately nip it in the bud like how he BT and stabbed the male toad. Even if he gets caught he can still use his doujutsu whilst being held, one shinra tensi in Kabuto's direction would end the jutsu.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 14, 2013)

Ninjutsu being used inside Tayuya's genjutsu is a dubious assertion. 

Maybe the base non-sempo version can have ninjjutsu used in it as shikamaru did, but when the Sempo version was used on the Uchiha bros it depowered their susanoo, and they had to break the illusion to reactivate susanoo in the nick of time.

If they couldn't use susanoo before breaking the illusion I don't see how Nagato would be able to use his abilities.

ST being used to interrupt Hakugeki is fair assessment though, especially with full knowledge. Pain may preemptively attack to prevent it.

Since Tayuya's genjutsu requires a decent amount of prep I'll retract saying Kabuto definitely wins.


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## Turrin (Oct 14, 2013)

Honestly when it comes to Mugen Onsa, we've seen Temari's wind blow away the sound waves of Onsa. So ST could probably do the same.


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## Kisame (Oct 14, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Honestly when it comes to Mugen Onsa, we've seen Temari's wind blow away the sound waves of Onsa. So ST could probably do the same.


Shinra Tensei is more like a "re-positioning of the center of gravity" to cause damage.

I doubt the gravity would affect the sound waves.


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## Dominus (Oct 14, 2013)

Shark said:


> Shinra Tensei is more like a "re-positioning of the center of gravity" to cause damage.
> 
> I doubt the gravity would affect the sound waves.



Even if Shinra Tensei doesn't work, he is able to use all elements and we've seen him use Fūton: Reppūshō.


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## Rocky (Oct 14, 2013)

BurningVegeta said:


> That is pretty much 100% stops anyone that doesn't use Doujutsu.




It's a good thing every single Jutsu Pain possesses, and even the Pein bodies themselves, are Dojutsu. 

Mugen Onsa binds the hands, and that's pretty much it. Tendo Pain does not need his hands to activate Shinra Tensei, and Shurado Pain does not need his hands to fire his head lazer. 




> I'm not retarded... you should realise if Kabuto becomes water he'll be unaffected by the entirety of Chibaku Tensei, just like how the Trollkage did to Gaara's seal. Kabuto will seep through it once the jutsu is over, once over they'll be no gravitational pull as shown here and the Chibaku Tensei isn't something Nagato can use on a whim. Once he uses it and Kabuto escapes, it is pretty much game over for him.




There's a reason why those rocks stay up there, floating in the sky like that. It's because the black core has a gravitational pull that is consistent. Just because Nagato stops stacking mountains onto the construct does not mean that its gravity disappears. Kabuto has not demonstrated the strength in "water form" to resist it. KN8 broke out because it's light-years ahead of Kabuto in terms of physical strength.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Oct 14, 2013)

Hax and tricks is null is the face of too much power. Chibaku tensei comes out and kabuto end commences.

Only reason a CST does not kill him is because of oral rebirth trollage imo(i think his liquid form would not be able to protect him from such a attack but that's just me). Me thinks body fluid form is a bit overrated.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 14, 2013)

Kabuto gets his shit torn apart. His arsenal is absorbed/deflected by ST. 
We've seen sage sensing can be overloaded by multiple sources(magatama spam + arrow), which pain can do with 6 bodies. Kabuto can't run around forever even in his favorable location.



Lawrence777 said:


> Since Tayuya's genjutsu requires a decent amount of prep I'll retract saying Kabuto definitely wins.



It requires no prep, it was executed almost instantly, unlike frog song.

But Kabuto needs favorable positioning to be able to execute it, preferably outside Pain's LOS so that he doesn't get flattened by ST or gets pulled in by a BT.


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## Chad (Oct 14, 2013)

Really? Kabuto has no counter to CT? Have you guys learned his full arsenal already?


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## Gunstarvillain (Oct 14, 2013)

So its manda2, all dem edos, dragon sage durability, ssge sound gengutsu vs gimped deva or all paths at same time? It took one of the two most haxed moves in naruto to NEUTRALIZE kabuto. Sasuke was lucky the real hero of naruto was there. I also hate to use ABC logic but I fell pain could beat sasuke but not kabuto.


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## Veracity (Oct 14, 2013)

Can someone link me to both times Pain/Nagato used CT. I have a feeling Kabuto can counter it quite easily with knowledge.


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## Alita (Oct 14, 2013)

Without edo tensei and V2 manda there is no way kabuto can win this. Pein is more versatile and with far greater firepower.


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## Joakim3 (Oct 14, 2013)

Bogard said:


> Really? Kabuto has no counter to CT? Have you guys learned his full arsenal already?



Ugh yeah.... Without Edo Tensei he has no counter to CT other than offing himself to save himself from the pain of being ripped apart by tidal forces


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## Jagger (Oct 14, 2013)

BurningVegeta said:


> Kabuto did not show any signs of tiredness or his Sage Mode fading and he used a lot of jutsu.


The fight didn't last long either and Kabuto's feats are nowhere as Nagato's in terms of chakra. He spammed the Six Paths of Pain Jutsu over the whole village, summoned several large summons that are described to be large consumming techniques, used a Shinra Tensei on the scale of Konoha, used Chibaku Tensei and was planning to make it bigger and then, he revived all the persons he murdered in his assault.




> That's the point, he won't run out and he is passively absorbing it. You're assuming Kabuto's sage mode works the same as Naruto's it doesn't Kabuto's is better in terms of movement and absorption.


The mechanism of balancing natural energy with the user's own chakra to create Senjutsu applies to every single type of Sage Mode, my friend. Even Hashirama had to gather and balance both things to get the product. At one point, Kabuto's chakra reserves will hit a point where he can't balance it with natural energy.

Of course it won't run out, lol. Natural energy never runs out unlike a person's chakra.



> Even though I know Kabuto would counter this with his Hydrofication Jutsu, just like Trollkage did to Gaara's Sand Sealing. What makes you think that will kill Kabuto or Pein will even use it, he is trying to kill Kabuto here... not seal him to suck out his jinchuuriki Chakra.


The temperature produced by the several rocks clashing against each other would vaporize Kabuto?s Hydrofication jutsu. 

It's a similar process to how bees and wasps kill their enemies by jumping over the rival until the temperature at the center is too high for the bee/wasp to handle.


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## BurningVegeta (Oct 14, 2013)

Rocky said:


> It's a good thing every single Jutsu Pain possesses, and even the Pein bodies themselves, are Dojutsu.
> 
> Mugen Onsa binds the hands, and that's pretty much it. Tendo Pain does not need his hands to activate Shinra Tensei, and Shurado Pain does not need his hands to fire his head lazer.


Seriously -snip-, why an earth did you take my post out of context and just quote part of it? Seriously explain that to me... either way like I said Mugen Onsa stops movement, so Asura Path's head isn't opening it's head to fire it's laser, so this single move immobilises all Paths of Pein apart from stopping Deva Path's gravitation. I'm sure Kabuto can handle that.


> There's a reason why those rocks stay up there, floating in the sky like that. It's because the black core has a gravitational pull that is consistent. Just because Nagato stops stacking mountains onto the construct does not mean that its gravity disappears. Kabuto has not demonstrated the strength in "water form" to resist it. KN8 broke out because it's light-years ahead of Kabuto in terms of physical strength.


After Nagato claimed he had caught the Kyubi the gravitational pull of the sphere ended, it stopped and my point is once that happens Kabuto using Suigetsu's Hydrification Technique. This technique makes the user 100% resistant to physical moves and once the Chibaku Tensei ends, Kabuto will seep through the earth and be ready for battle. If you think Pein would even use this stupid ninjutsu for Kabuto, please explain why he would...


Jagger said:


> The fight didn't last long either and Kabuto's feats are nowhere as Nagato's in terms of chakra. He spammed the Six Paths of Pain Jutsu over the whole village, summoned several large summons that are described to be large consumming techniques, used a Shinra Tensei on the scale of Konoha, used Chibaku Tensei and was planning to make it bigger and then, he revived all the persons he murdered in his assault.


So because the fight didn't last very long and you assume Kabuto doesn't have a reserve of Chakra to rival Nagato's ...he'll definitely tire before Nagato? I would stop this line of thought, it is pointless... Kabuto didn't tire because he is absorbing chakra and doing so keeps him at an optimum state of performance which is why he didn't tire - the use of his Jutsu literally had no cost.


> The mechanism of balancing natural energy with the user's own chakra to create Senjutsu applies to every single type of Sage Mode, my friend. Even Hashirama had to gather and balance both things to get the product. At one point, Kabuto's chakra reserves will hit a point where he can't balance it with natural energy.


Does it say that in the manga? If you can point me to where it says that I'll be more inclined to believe this isn't all stuff you've made up.



> Of course it won't run out, lol. Natural energy never runs out unlike a person's chakra.






> The temperature produced by the several rocks clashing against each other would vaporize Kabuto?s Hydrofication jutsu.


Okay, okay... say Kabuto doesn't use the Hydrofication cause' we know the Chibaku Tensei doesn't kill. What happens when the Chibaku Tensei ends then Kabuto seeps through? I'm not going to argue about the heat of the Chibaku Tensei because that is pointless. Like how Amaterasu that is meant to be as hot as the sun, yet it doesn't burn up all the oxygen in the surrounding area. There's a point in this Manga where our world of science just stops existing.


> It's a similar process to how bees and wasps kill their enemies by jumping over the rival until the temperature at the center is too high for the bee/wasp to handle.


Maybe Kabuto will shield himself with Kidomaru's Kumosokai - fight bug vs bug.

The very fact how Pein mentions if Jiraiya would have beaten him if he knew his secrets ...but here Kabuto does know everything about Nagato but he is somehow still _defeated _even though in terms of being a sage he is the superior, more versatile and smarter sage. 

Purely illogical.


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## Rocky (Oct 14, 2013)

BurningVegeta said:


> Seriously are you fucking moron, why an earth did you take my post out of context and just quote part of it? Seriously explain that to me... either way like I said Mugen Onsa stops movement, so Asura Path's head isn't opening it's head to fire it's laser, so this single move immobilises all Paths of Pein apart from stopping Deva Path's gravitation. I'm sure Kabuto can handle that.




No, I am not "fucking moron." It's because I can barley understand your posts. Your grammar is atrocious. 

This is what was said:




> I have no idea why you're relating this to Kabuto using his Demonic Flute Genjutsu. As for what you've said though Kabuto said it stops movement... that is pretty much 100% stops anyone that doesn't use Doujutsu.* No movement no Deva Path Jutsu, no Asura Path projectiles, no summons from Animal Path.*




The bold indicates that you believe Mugen Onsa will stop the Jutsu of Deva, Asura, and Animal. Animal is correct as she cannot weave signs, but Deva and Asura do not require their hands. The heads are free, as Itachi and Sasuke were able to turn their heads and cast Genjutsu on each other.

Tendo and Shurado can simply destroy the cave if Pain is caught in the Genjutsu. That would most likely break Kabuto's hold over them. Alternatively, Nagato can deactivate the bodies bar Tendo, and have him CST Kabuto at what would be a point blank distance. 



> After Nagato claimed he had caught the Kyubi the gravitational pull of the sphere ended, it stopped and my point is once that happens Kabuto using Suigetsu's Hydrification Technique. This technique makes the user 100% resistant to physical moves and once the Chibaku Tensei ends, Kabuto will seep through the earth and be ready for battle. If you think Pein would even use this stupid ninjutsu for Kabuto, please explain why he would...




Water is not gravity resistant. You are having trouble understanding that Chibaku Tensei's core has a constant gravitational pull, even when it's not in its building stage. The entire reason the rocks stay compacted like they do is because of gravity. Kabuto isn't going to wiggle his way out, as gravity is going to prevent that, just as gravity prevents the material of Chibaku Tensei from simply falling to the ground.


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## Trojan (Oct 14, 2013)

What stop Deva from using his BT on Tayuya's flute? 

This jutsu is overrated, even Shikamaru was able to get ride of it.


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## BurningVegeta (Oct 14, 2013)

Rocky said:


> No, I am not "fucking moron." It's because I can barley understand your posts. Your grammar is atrocious.


You're acting like one and don't pretend you don't understand what I'm saying, it is clear you do.


> The bold indicates that you believe Mugen Onsa will stop the Jutsu of Deva, Asura, and Animal. Animal is correct as she cannot weave signs, but Deva and Asura do not require their hands. The heads are free, as Itachi and Sasuke were able to turn their heads and cast Genjutsu on each other.


How is Deva Path going to use Chibaku Tensei if he cannot move his hands? Fair enough, Asura Path can fire rockets - I accept that now.



> Tendo and Shurado can simply destroy the cave if Pain is caught in the Genjutsu. That would most likely break Kabuto's hold over them. Alternatively, Nagato can deactivate the bodies bar Tendo, and have him CST Kabuto at what would be a point blank distance.


With full knowledge do you honestly see Kabuto walking into that?



> Water is not gravity resistant. You are having trouble understanding that Chibaku Tensei's core has a constant gravitational pull, even when it's not in its building stage. The entire reason the rocks stay compacted like they do is because of gravity. Kabuto isn't going to wiggle his way out, as gravity is going to prevent that, just as gravity prevents the material of Chibaku Tensei from simply falling to the ground.


Nobody said water is gravity resistant. I haven't said that once, I did say Kabuto could seep out as water as the gravitation pull disperses after the ball has formed. At this point if Naruto got out... and managed to stand on it; Kabuto will be able to do so as well.


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## ATastyMuffin (Oct 14, 2013)

BurningVegeta said:


> With full knowledge do you honestly see Kabuto walking into that?



I'd love to see him attempt to avoid an attack of that scale and range even with prior knowledge. 



> Nobody said water is gravity resistant. I haven't said that once, I did say Kabuto could seep out as water as the *gravitation pull disperses after the ball has formed*. At this point if Naruto got out... and managed to stand on it; Kabuto will be able to do so as well.



... wait, what?


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## Rocky (Oct 14, 2013)

BurningVegeta said:


> You're acting like one and don't pretend you don't understand what I'm saying, it is clear you do.




I'm doing my best, but you're unclear.



> How is Deva Path going to use Chibaku Tensei if he cannot move his hands? Fair enough, Asura Path can fire rockets - I accept that now.




He won't use Chibaku Tensei if caught in Mugen Onsa, and I never stated that he would.



> With full knowledge do you honestly see Kabuto walking into that?




Just as much as you see Pain walking into Mugen Onsa. There's really nothing Kabuto can do to stop Nagato from using CST.



> Nobody said water is gravity resistant. I haven't said that once, I did say Kabuto could seep out as water as the gravitation pull disperses after the ball has formed. At this point if Naruto got out... and managed to stand on it; Kabuto will be able to do so as well.




Ah but the gravitational pull _doesn't_ disperse, it just weakens. If it was completely gone, the rocks wouldn't stay floating in the air, they would just fall.

Naruto escaped because Hachibi Naruto physically broke the technique. Kabuto would attempt to liquify himself and slide out, but the gravity of the core would keep from from making it to the surface. KN8 created a new surface for Naruto to stand on.


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## Jagger (Oct 14, 2013)

BurningVegeta said:


> So because the fight didn't last very long and you assume Kabuto doesn't have a reserve of Chakra to rival Nagato's ...he'll definitely tire before Nagato? I would stop this line of thought, it is pointless... Kabuto didn't tire because he is absorbing chakra and doing so keeps him at an optimum state of performance which is why he didn't tire - the use of his Jutsu literally had no cost.


Kabuto absorbing chakra? From where?  Maybe it's because I am too tired right now or my memory is failing me once more but I don't remember Kabuto absorbing chakra from anywhere. You might be talking about the fact he is constantly gathering natural energy, but I don't remember him absorbing chakra unless you're confusing it with his regeneration factor from Karin's DNA. 

I am just trying to prove you Kabuto's chakra reserves are ambiguous. What I can say is that they're quite large to be capable of summoning a lot of zombies and then, fight the Uchiha bros.



> Does it say that in the manga? If you can point me to where it says that I'll be more inclined to believe this isn't all stuff you've made up.


It's pretty much explained in the manga when Fugasaku teaches Naruto about Senjutsu. Why would the Dragon Sage Mode be any different other than being taught by a different animal?





> Okay, okay... say Kabuto doesn't use the Hydrofication cause' we know the Chibaku Tensei doesn't kill. What happens when the Chibaku Tensei ends then Kabuto seeps through? I'm not going to argue about the heat of the Chibaku Tensei because that is pointless. Like how Amaterasu that is meant to be as hot as the sun, yet it doesn't burn up all the oxygen in the surrounding area. There's a point in this Manga where our world of science just stops existing.
> Maybe Kabuto will shield himself with Kidomaru's Kumosokai - fight bug vs bug.


Chibaku Tensei doesn't kill? Sorry, but I think it can kill someone perfectly fine by crushing their bones and asphyxiate the victim to death. Kabuto wouldn't be any different. Also, that was a hyperbole and that's pretty obvious, besides, Kishi could have been talking about the surface of the sun since lightings are 6 times hotter than it and still people in this manga don't have any problems standing next to them.

It would break, period.

Chibaku Tensei isn't hyped anywhere with hyperboles, but we just common sense. 



> The very fact how Pein mentions if Jiraiya would have beaten him if he knew his secrets ...but here Kabuto does know everything about Nagato but he is somehow still _defeated _even though in terms of being a sage he is the superior, more versatile and smarter sage.
> 
> Purely illogical.


Your point?  None of this applies to this debate.


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## Gunstarvillain (Oct 15, 2013)

My favorite part when it was a debate on kabuto vs pain. Anyways I think we can thrown out the kabuto has weak chairs reserves argument out cut to summoning manda having enough chairs to go dragon sage during casual three day Edo assault. 7 swordsmen, gold silver bros, atsukasti, dead jonin,  throwback kages, madara.

Food for thought obito had trouble controlling  6 jinkchuriki.yes I know how powerful they are.


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## Chad (Oct 15, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Ugh yeah.... Without Edo Tensei he has no counter to CT other than offing himself to save himself from the pain of being ripped apart by tidal forces



Yes he does... a tactic with Muki Tensei, assuming that Nagato can even get CT off before getting his head bitten off.

Anyways, the process of CT actually makes it easier for Kabuto to take it down. CT pulls earth pieces from the fissure. As the rocks are piling up, Kabuto can manipulate those rocks using Muki Tensei and transform them into projectiles. Once the thousands of rock pieces get shaped into a projectile, Kabuto sends the projectiles into the center mass of the gravitational orb. Kabuto's earth bending speed has already proven to be fast, given Itachi having a hard time reacting to it. The gravitational pull would only increase the speed at which the projectile travels. Thus, delivering even more impact to the center mass and destroying it.

Or he can just drop a 10 kilometer longer snake on the orb and destroy it.


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## Joakim3 (Oct 15, 2013)

Bogard said:


> Yes he does... a tactic with Muki Tensei, assuming that Nagato can even get CT off before getting his head bitten off.



So again.... explain *how* _Muki Tensei_ counters CT's mountain range +  tidal forces?

Because I can't comprhened that logic.....

Nagato (or the paths in this case) can multi task while forming the core. Nagato canonically had Shurado, Jigukudo & Chikushodo active at the same time as forming the core, Kabuto isn't bitting anyones head off unless he plans on having his Soul taken by Ningendo or vaporized by Shurado



Bogard said:


> Anyways, the process of CT actually makes it easier for Kabuto to take it down. CT pulls earth pieces from the fissure. As the rocks are piling up, Kabuto can manipulate those rocks using Muki Tensei and transform them into projectiles.



And how are the projectiles going to work under the effects of CT? 

_Muki Tensei_ controls the terrain.... not give Kabuto telekinesis of it. Second... the gravity is going to pull any potential project right back into the core regardless of which way Kabuto wants.



Bogard said:


> Once the thousands of rock pieces get shaped into a projectile, Kabuto sends the projectiles into the center mass of the gravitational orb. Kabuto's earth bending speed has already proven to be fast, given Itachi having a hard time reacting to it. The gravitational pull would only increase the speed at which the projectile travels. Thus, delivering even more impact to the center mass and destroying it.



Because the core hasn't lol tanked a KN6 Bijudama that penetrated through the outer rock layer while CT was still forming...... from a half dead Nagato through Tendo 



Bogard said:


> Or he can just drop a 10 kilometer longer snake on the orb and destroy it.



Do you honestly think dropping a 10km snake can exert more *pressure* on the core than an entire mountain range squeezing on it from every single direction, with the pressure only increasing as the planetoid gets bigger. All that happens to Manda II is his body coils and his bones snap like toothpicks as he's and Kabuto are turned into pudding at the core of Nagato's fully powered CT


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## Chad (Oct 15, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Nagato (or the paths in this case) can multi task while forming the core. Nagato canonically had Shurado, Jigukudo & Chikushodo active at the same time as forming the core, Kabuto isn't bitting anyones head off unless he plans on having his Soul taken by Ningendo or vaporized by Shurado



You are assuming that Ningendo would actually tag Kabuto, which is false due to the fact that Kabuto is faster than Pain.



Don't tell me you actually believe that Asura Path can kill Kabuto... Take into account all of the regenerative abilities he acquired. A Chakra Missile isn't damaging Kabuto's super regeneration, let alone killing him.



> And how are the projectiles going to work under the effects of CT?
> 
> _Muki Tensei_ controls the terrain.... not give Kabuto telekinesis of it. Second... *the gravity is going to pull any potential project right back into the core regardless of which way Kabuto wants*.



Bro, my man Itachi already explained everything. The gravitational pull will naturally attract the projectiles, in Itachi's case: his Magatamas. What you said in the bold just benefits this tactic even further, according to Itachi. As we see from CT feats, the rocks do not apply heavy impact on the orb. What I'm trying to say is that Kabuto can throw that large amount of rocks all into the center at once, delivering actual heavy impact.

Of course he can control the rocks pulled from the orb. Think about it, where do the rocks from the CT come from? It comes from the ground. The same ground that Kabuto shapeshifts. You also act as if Muki Tensei requires touch. Which is doesn't, because Kabuto transformed the entire cave without touching the entire cave.



> Because the core hasn't lol tanked a KN6 Bijudama that penetrated through the outer rock layer while CT was still forming...... from a half dead Nagato through Tendo



You might want to provide a scan of KN6 directing a Bijuudama towards the orb.



> Do you honestly think dropping a 10km snake can exert more *pressure* on the core than an entire mountain range squeezing on it from every single direction, with the pressure only increasing as the planetoid gets bigger. All that happens to Manda II is his body coils and his bones snap like toothpicks as he's and Kabuto are turned into pudding at the core of Nagato's fully powered CT



Manda 2 is over twice as large as the CT Tendo used. At least through pixel scaling. 

The gravitational pull gets weaker as the planetoid gets bigger, that's why Nagato has a size limit, obviously.

What makes you think that the pressure of CT can restrain Manda 2? By feats, the snake is able to move an entire island that's far bigger than CT with it's raw strength with no visible effort. The feat is also in the water, which gives him no leverage, which makes the feat more impressive than it seems.


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## Joakim3 (Oct 15, 2013)

Bogard said:


> You are assuming that Ningendo would actually tag Kabuto, which is false due to the fact that Kabuto is faster than Pain.



Becuase Kabuto can keep track of six targets at once . Um SM Kabuto is not faster than the paths when they were lol dodging FRS (which is a fast as the arrows Kabuto was dodging)



Bogard said:


> Don't tell me you actually believe that Asura Path can kill Kabuto... Take into account all of the regenerative abilities he acquired. A Chakra Missile isn't damaging Kabuto's super regeneration, let alone killing him.



Then Shurado erases him off the map with _Laser Explsion_, which by feats.... Kabuto can't survive seeing it was going to vaporize Killer B's torso



Bogard said:


> Bro, my man Itachi already explained everything. The gravitational pull will naturally attract the projectiles, in Itachi's case: his Magatamas. What you said in the bold just benefits this tactic even further, according to Itachi. As we see from CT feats, the rocks do not apply heavy impact on the orb. What I'm trying to say is that Kabuto can throw that large amount of rocks all into the center at once, delivering actual heavy impact.



The rocks do not apply heavy impacts? You do realize Nagato canonically controled the speed and strength of the rocks via the gravity when he flattened KN6 specifically to stop it from resisting



Bogard said:


> Of course he can control the rocks pulled from the orb. Think about it, where do the rocks from the CT come from? It comes from the ground. The same ground that Kabuto shapeshifts. You also act as if Muki Tensei requires touch. Which is doesn't, because Kabuto transformed the entire cave without touching the entire cave.



The cave is one continuous surface which CT would break into an innumerable number of separate pieces. He can't control the rocks when they aren't touching each other. A boulder isn't doing anything to CT simply due to the fact it will have accreted more than enough mass and survived an early stage KN6 Bijudama 



Bogard said:


> You might want to provide a scan of KN6 directing a Bijuudama towards the orb.



He shot at the core when it was still in the early stages of attracting mass. The core is what's durable not the immediate rocks surrounding it which is why Itachi said all 3 use their strongest attacks rather than Naruto just chuck an FRS at it and call it a day



Bogard said:


> Manda 2 is over twice as large as the CT Tendo used. At least through pixel scaling.
> 
> The gravitational pull gets weaker as the planetoid gets bigger, that's why Nagato has a size limit, obviously.



Through pixal scaling Manda II would comfortably fit inside Tendo's sphere..... And that was a half dead Nagato after fighting naruto & Konoha 

The gravitational pull gets stronger in direct proportion to the mass . It's the reason KN6 could move about while being sucked up, but when it reached the surface it was literally melding onto it. CT size limit is due to chakra.... Something Nagato has oodles and oodles spare 



Bogard said:


> What makes you think that the pressure of CT can restrain Manda 2? By feats, the snake is able to move an entire island that's far bigger than CT with it's raw strength with no visible effort. The feat is also in the water, which gives him no leverage, which makes the feat more impressive than it seems.



The snake used the force of Diedara's C3+ level explosion to roll Island Turtle, which *substantially* reduces the strength feat, and yes an explosion produces FAR more moving power than any living creature can produce with raw strength 

The CT sphere is easily on the same scale of island turtle just by cloud reference along with curvature of the planet being visible and it can become bigger... on a whim


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## PopoTime (Oct 15, 2013)

Kabuto stomps hard.

Senpou: Hakugeki + Muki Tensei combo could take out all of the paths at once.


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## Jagger (Oct 15, 2013)

Why are you guys quoting an italian manga page?


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## BroKage (Oct 15, 2013)

Kabuto has no counter for Bansho Tenin, unless he's already rooted into the ground with Bone Forest. Afterwards, Pain's chakra rods can nullify his regen and Human Path can steal his soul.

That aside, Kabuto also doesn't have any way to kill Cerberus. He could have Manda 2 eat it, but Manda 2 is banned.

Kabuto would godstomp if not for these factors; he's faster and stronger than the Pains, has multiple AoE jutsu they're vulnerable to, and can endure anything else they dish out (ST will not kill someone with his regen, CT cannot kill him because he can liquify and has a jutsu to travel through the ground safely). But he can't get past the above walls.


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## Bansai (Oct 15, 2013)

Kabuto wins this. No doubt. Direct attacks are pretty much useless against Nagato, since he has the best combination of abilities that makes him almost completely immune to Ninjutsu and Taijutsu. Suigetsu's liquidation ability will allow him to turn into water if he gets hit by an attack insantly. Since the Rinnegan does not provide any kind of Raiton Jutsus, Kabuto can just turn into liquid and avoid most of the attacks. And in case he gets injured anyway, which is indeed possible, he can use the best regeneration ability to heal himself. Karin's and Suigetsu's abilities give him a huge advantage here. As if that was not enough, Nagato's Rinnegan's sight is also useless here, as Kabuto can easily blind his eyes and block his ears with a Jutsu that is so bright and loud that you cant detect your target unless you have a really good Sensor Jutsu. 

The question is just how Kabuto will fight Pain/Nagato. We have to take into account that only ONCE Pain body can absorb Ninjutsu, which means that except for that Pain and Nagato himself, every single Pain can be injured by Ninjutsu. Kabuto's Ninjutsu abilities are quite fearsome, but he will most certainly have problems defeating five Pains with them. But if he blinds their sight, they can't share their vision, and that would make each Pain body vulnerable. As long as he can keep himself unharmed with the Uzumaki clan's regeneration ability and the Hozuki clan's liquidation ability, it should be possible. Nagato and the Pain who can absorb Ninjutsu will have to be defeated with Genjutsu. Tayuya's Genjutsu is rather easy to break through, but only if you can feel pain. And THAT'S another huge advantage for Kabuto. The Pain bodies don't feel pain at all. They're corpses. Breaking free from a Genjutsu like that is not possible for them. They could rip their own arm off and still feel nothing. 
The Pain bodies are really not that hard to deal with when we talk about Kabuto. Nagato himself is the only one who should prove a real threat. But if we're honest, there's nothing Nagato can do. If he uses Ninjutsu or Taijutsu, Kabuto will turn into liquid and regenerate. Nagato has no powerful Genjutsu either. The only thing Nagato could possibly do is aborbing Kabuto's soul. That's an important fact because no liquidation and no regeneration ability could save him from that. However, Nagato has to keep Kabuto in place to perform his. The big question here is: Can he do that? If Nagato chains him like he chained Naruto, no Ninjutsu ability will be able to save Kabuto, as offensive Ninjutsu won't work against a Rinnegan user.
I personally think that Nagato won't even manage to capture Kabuto though. Why?
1. He has a great sensor ability to see such an attack coming.
2. Offensive Ninjutsu might not work, but what would stop him from turning into liquid while being chained? As long as Nagato didn't start pulling his soul out, Kabuto will be able to use the liquidation ability freely. If he's fast enough to turn into liquid during the moment he gets chained (and I'm convinced he his) Nagato won't be able to chain him, which makes pulling his soul out impossible.

So basically there isn't really anything the Rinnegan provides that proves and extremely huge threat except for the "pulling one's soul out" ability. But since I'm convinced that Nagato would not be able to keep Kabuto in place in order to use this technique and Kabuto has a variety of Jutsus that could limit the Rinnegan's abilites fatally, I'll give this to Kabuto.


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## Jagger (Oct 15, 2013)

Emporio Ivankov said:


> 1. He has a great sensor ability to see such an attack coming.
> 2. Offensive Ninjutsu might not work, but what would stop him from turning into liquid while being chained? As long as Nagato didn't start pulling his soul out, Kabuto will be able to use the liquidation ability freely. If he's fast enough to turn into liquid during the moment he gets chained (and I'm convinced he his) Nagato won't be able to chain him, which makes pulling his soul out impossible.


1. Being able to sense something =/= Being able to perfectly counter it. It's the same scenario of the first fight between Sasuke vs Lee. He was capable of reading Lee's moves, but his body wasn't fast enough to react to them. What I try to say is that even if Kabuto senses the large build-up of chakra inside of Nagato and then, he uses Chibaku Tensei, there is not much he can do from them.

2. Chibaku Tensei. GG.


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## Bansai (Oct 16, 2013)

Jagger said:


> 1. *Being able to sense something =/= Being able to perfectly counter it*. It's the same scenario of the first fight between Sasuke vs Lee. He was capable of reading Lee's moves, but his body wasn't fast enough to react to them. What I try to say is that even if Kabuto senses the large build-up of chakra inside of Nagato and then, he uses Chibaku Tensei, there is not much he can do from them.
> 
> 2. Chibaku Tensei. GG.



1. Kabuto was able to dodge Sasuke's arrow easily thanks to his sensor ability. He has proven that there is a connection between being able to sense chakra and dodging attacks. 
Let me correct that: 
Being able to sense something =/= Being able to perfectly counter it Having a high chance to perfectly dodge it. 
2. You forgot about Suigetsu's ability. It takes Chibaku Tensei WAY too long to get the target close to the user. Time that could simply be used to turn into liquid. If Nagato uses Chibaku Tensei, Kabuto will have more than enough time to avoid Nagato's attack by turning into water. In order to absorb Kabuto's soul, Nagato has to chain him for long enough. If he can't do that before Kabuto turns into liquid, it's not going to work.


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## Joakim3 (Oct 16, 2013)

Emporio Ivankov said:


> 1. Kabuto was able to dodge Sasuke's arrow easily thanks to his sensor ability. He has proven that there is a connection between being able to sense chakra and dodging attacks. Let me correct that: Being able to sense something =/= Being able to perfectly counter it Having a high chance to perfectly dodge it.



The problem is Kabuto fought Sasuke & Itachi...... who don't like (let alone have) AoE attacks. Nagato on the other hand likes and hands a plethora of city block + one shot attacks. 

How is Kabuto supposed to dodge a 200m wide omnidirectional _Shinra Tensei_ or a _Laser Explosion_ that vaporizes the *entire* section of cave Shurado aims it at?



Emporio Ivankov said:


> 2. You forgot about Suigetsu's ability. It takes Chibaku Tensei WAY too long to get the target close to the user. Time that could simply be used to turn into liquid. If Nagato uses Chibaku Tensei, Kabuto will have more than enough time to avoid Nagato's attack by turning into water. In order to absorb Kabuto's soul, Nagato has to chain him for long enough. If he can't do that before Kabuto turns into liquid, it's not going to work.



Again has does turning into liquid help against CT? Puddle boy is going to be sucked up by the core.... only this time it's going to be pulled apart due to tidal forces and vaporized by heat and pressure when several trillion tons of rock are compressed on top of it. 

Kabuto's _Sukia no Jutsu_ is not passive like Suigetsu's. If the _Pein Rikudo_ blindside him (he's fighting 6 bodies that are all on his tier of speed just to remind you), he is very much capable of being harpooned through the face via a chakra rod, be stunned/drop like a brick depending on how close Nagato is, and from there on it's _Soul Rip_ heaven


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## Bansai (Oct 16, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> The problem is Kabuto fought Sasuke & Itachi...... who don't like (let alone have) AoE attacks. Nagato on the other hand likes and hands a plethora of city block + one shot attacks.
> 
> How is Kabuto supposed to dodge a 200m wide omnidirectional _Shinra Tensei_ or a _Laser Explosion_ that vaporizes the *entire* section of cave Shurado aims it at?
> 
> ...



How do you want to know that? That's a rather wild assumption. I've never heard Kabuto saying or proving that he can't perform the Suika no Jutsu as fluently as Suigetsu. If I'm mistaken, please post a panel in which this was stated. 
You overestimate the Pains' skills. Some are almost like immovable walls because of their lack of speed. They're not slow, but they're certainly not as flexible and fast as Kabuto. Tendo most likely is and so could Nagato be, but the rest? They've never shown such speed feats. 
And as the name already says "Chakra Rods" are connected to chakra. Sensor types can sense them. Naruto was able to sense them as well. If Kabuto's sensor ability and speed were good enough to dodge a Susano'o arrow, you don't really think that a mere Chakra Rod proves a threat, do you?
And as I already mentioned, the Pains can be disabled easily. Kabuto can blind their sight and block their ears with his Hakugeki no Jutsu easily. Their shared vision will be pretty much useless. They won't be able to gang up on him, as he can stop many of them easily. There are only two people who prove an actual threat, and those are Nagato and Gakido.


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## Joakim3 (Oct 16, 2013)

Emporio Ivankov said:


> How do you want to know that? That's a rather wild assumption. I've never heard Kabuto saying or proving that he can't perform the Suika no Jutsu as fluently as Suigetsu. If I'm mistaken, please post a panel in which this was stated.



The fact that Kabuto had his horn cut off means his version of _Sukia no Jutsu_ is not passive (i.e it doesn't automatically activate like Suigetsu). Which means unlike Suigetsu Kabuto has to be aware of his surroundings 24/7 and *can't* be blindsided... at any point in time



Emporio Ivankov said:


> You overestimate the Pains' skills. Some are almost like immovable walls because of their lack of speed. They're not slow, but they're certainly not as flexible and fast as Kabuto. Tendo most likely is and so could Nagato be, but the rest?



With the exception of the second Chikushodo, all of them have been shown to keep pace with Sage users in their battle with SM Naruto & Jiraiya. Kabuto's speed and dexterity are due to his anatomy... Sasuke & Itachi where more than capable of reacting to his normal CqC assaults. 

Only when he Kabuto started changing tactics and trolling by coming out of snakes mouths did they get screwed due to the unorthodox nature of his attacks, and unlike the Uchiha bro's who couldn't kill, while Nagato will use extreme prejudice via nukes to do just the opposite



Emporio Ivankov said:


> They've never shown such speed feats.



Tendo & Jigakudo dodging FRS multiple times

Ningendo blitzing Ino (who was facing him), Inochi, Shizune & Anbu from across a court yard

Gakido intercepting and FRS

Shurado dodging _Raikiri_ and intercepting another one at point blank while damaged

should I continue? 



Emporio Ivankov said:


> And as the name already says "Chakra Rods" are connected to chakra. Sensor types can sense them. Naruto was able to sense them as well. If Kabuto's sensor ability and speed were good enough to dodge a Susano'o arrow, you don't really think that a mere Chakra Rod proves a threat, do you?



A _Sasuno'o_ arrow is a liner attack.... how does that correlate to dodging a chakra rod seeing the Nagato doesn't have the paths fire them like projectiles. 

Each paths can make 2 rods at the same time, thats 12 rods coming from multiple angles, directions and times all connected to bodies that can react and defend against SM Naruto in CqC. Essentially for chakra rods not to be a threat. Kabuto has to be able to beat all 6 paths in CqC without some much as being touched... which he can't.. at all



Emporio Ivankov said:


> And as I already mentioned, the Pains can be disabled easily. Kabuto can blind their sight and block their ears with his Hakugeki no Jutsu easily. Their shared vision will be pretty much useless. They won't be able to gang up on him, as he can stop many of them easily. There are only two people who prove an actual threat, and those are Nagato and Gakido.



Nagato isn't going to have the paths just stand there with full knowledge, how is Kabuto blinding them when Tendo can casually ST _Hakugeki_ away? Even on the off chance they are caught the paths don't feel pain.... which would just lead to blindness and Tendo nuking as a safety measure? 

Tendo, Shurado, Ningendo are capable of oneshoting Kabuto if there ace moves connect, with Gakido & Chikushodo acting as support.


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## Edo Madara (Mar 14, 2014)

If Kabuto used white dragon or tayuya genjutsu, he wins. 
The best strategy Nagato can do is prevented Kabuto from using either jutsu and swarm him with Pains or he can used CST and let's see if Kabuto can survive that.


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## Cognitios (Mar 14, 2014)

Full Knowledge against Pain, lol
Kabuto - no difficulty.
Kabuto controls environment and takes out paths in correct order,  half the paths are jounin level, max. Naraka path and Human path are killed easily with controlled environment. Tayuya genjutsu kills preta, like frog song. Animal Path is killed with Sensing and Controlled Stalactite through her heart. Asura Path is destroyed. Deva Path is killed with White Rage or Genjutsu, your choice.
TLR : Does Kabuto go in with or without lube.


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## LostSelf (Mar 14, 2014)

I gave this thread a quick read and i don't know if it's just me but it seems people are having a lot of fun here , or the thread itself is quite fun to debate, who knows.

Either way, with full knowledge i fail to see Kabuto's chances of countering Bansho Ten'nin. It looks like that jutsu can be used with more potency, just like Shinra Tensei, because Deva used one where Kakashi could react accordingly, but used another where Naruto was completely took by surprise. And it's five meters here so i see Kabuto being gangbanged badly.

If he manages to survive or counter that then he has his chances, but  Shinra Tensei doesn't need any movement to be activated, and the paths won't die by that or doesn't have much to be messed up really.

Kabuto needs to kill Deva and Naraka in order to win this, because if Chibaku Tensei comes into play, he doesn't have much choices of dealing with it, nor he has any choice if Pain surprises him with a boss sized Shinra Tensei if his body doesn't automatically liquify.

So, i give it to Pain more times than not.


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