# A few words on the general direction this manga has taken recently... [ESSAY]



## PikaCheeka (Jun 4, 2014)

I am going to admit that I really haven't done much fandom browsing on any website between last chapter release and this one (not even perusing the telegrams today), though it is glaringly apparent that some people seem to be misinterpreting the anger/sadness others are feeling over this recent turn of events the last two chapters. I don't know how many people will bother to listen to a Madara fan talk about this, but please hear me out if you can put your fandom biases aside for a few minutes. 

*This is more of a discussion about the direction the writing itself has turned than it is about particular characters. It starts with Madara, but moves outward, so bear with me.*

*That said, heavy criticism and minor literary analysis ahead. If you can't read and digest all of it, and if you can't stay on-topic and/or contribute, please don't bother posting a reply.*This is not a general complaint thread. I know a lot of you hate my guts and hate my favorite character but this is not about me so don't waste your time trying to be cool with snide replies that mean nothing.

-

The problem is not about Madara "dying" or being defeated here, or even necessarily being usurped. ". I always knew that he would be defeated eventually, as we all did. *It was the disgustingly abysmal writing and the way Kishimoto just more or less erased him entirely from the manga, replacing him with this generic, personality-less retcon of a character who is not only the new supposed main villain, but who only had a presence in the manga 5 chapters before last week.* Though I do still believe he will make a comeback and be the one to stab that third eye out, thus weakening her enough for her to be sealed (he has to get closure; even after this week I have difficulty believing the story can be that awful), the treatment he received was abysmal and even people who despise him must acknowledge this.

Madara was a firmly established villain with a very solid foundation, consistent and gradual character development, intimate ties to everyone and everything in the story, a presence that has permeated the plot since Part 1 (over 400 chapters now), a clear motive, significant control over all of the other villains without the slightest hint of there being more beyond him, a pro-active as opposed to a reactionary agenda, an ideology and a drive that perfectly paralleled the main hero while having a place that paralleled the anti-hero, and as a symbol he was exactly who the two heroes needed to defeat to amend their differences and bring everything full circle. He was also someone who temporarily killed off the two heroes and actually succeeded in his plan to rule the world, if only for a chapter. Despite however he may have behaved in between and whatever ridiculous outfit he wore, he was a force to be reckoned with and his act is a nigh-impossible one to follow. *Whatever you thought of him, whether you hated or loved him, his role in the manga was solid, gradual, developed, and well-established.* It made sense, and was foreseeable as far back as when Obito first claimed to be him. 

Kaguya has...none of that. Just none of it. She was first mentioned 30 chapters ago, in passing, a myth only to help explain the creation of Narutoverse. Less than 10 chapters ago, she was brought up again, this time with an altered story (despite the same person telling it, as the RS wrote the tablet Madara spoke of) and a very nonsensical malicious agenda. Five chapters ago, she had her first line, but was quickly dropped again. She has NO foundation or establishment in the manga whatsoever. She has NO character development, NO ties to anyone in the story that are remotely significant, NO presence, NO motive that makes any sense, NO hints of ever having controlled anyone before now, NO logical agenda, NO parallels to either hero, and symbolically she is utterly meaningless. All to say nothing of the fact that she just has NO personality or substance as a character (and please don't even start on how it is great that she is female when the one of the first things she talks about upon returning is taking care of her nursery). *And of course, how can her villainry top killing the heroes and taking over the world? It cant. She just took the place of someone who already took over the world. *How are we supposed to remotely care about this person? Villains might be villains but they still ought to have some development. *Kishimoto has always been a very big fan of developing his villains, so this sudden lack of characterization in someone who he claims is the big bad is troubling and unsuitable for the Naruto manga.*

To further complicate matters, she doesn't even make sense. Despite her story being changed, in both versions she was still someone who initially ate the shinju's fruit to end war. Now, somehow, she was the voice of the shinju and is implied to be the juubi itself, even though the juubi was well-established as a force of nature and the tree that Kaguya ate the fruit from. The entire fabric of the universe's logic is based on her angering the shinju/juubi; how can she suddenly be it? Maybe she isn't and this is a big fan misinterpretation, but the story is extremely difficult to understand here (I have never seen a good explanation) and given the intended audience of the manga, it should not be as such (yes, we ought to wait for an explanation, but if not a single individual seems to be able to make proper sense of it before a reveal, there is a problem). And somehow she is supposed to represent total war and true evil? Really, Kishi? No. It existed before her! She tried to do good, screwed up, and lost her shit! She is not remotely special in terms of being villainous in that regard. In fact, she just lost her shit according to the RS; she didn't even think about it and gradually become warped by life and ideologies!

Her plan is bizarre, retconned, and illogical to the point of making one uncomfortable. Did she ever actually perform MT? It was implied as such, but according to legend she existed before a moon, so this was not plausible. And who is she building an army for? She has the entire human race under her power. What kind of army would she need? Is this manga really moving into outer space? That's...embarrassingly random and entirely uncalled for. How can you even take this seriously? And how are the white Zetsus her army if they were already established to be imperfect clones of Hashirama, if they first appeared on this planet when Madara joined his Hashirama DNA to the Gedo? That's severely problematic.

Her only valid tie to the current cast at all is the Indra/Ashura reincarnation connection, one that she didn't even recognize! How's that for being connected to the heroes? Never mind that she was supposedly fucking with Madara's will (ambiguous as to how deeply) despite being confused about the idea of Indra having successors (which means that either she's dumb as bricks or she can't possibly have had anything to do with Madara's actions). And what about her being Black Zetsu all of a sudden? Black Zetsu who had Madara's personality despite barely ever coming into contact with him, who was too weak to fight Minato or Kakashi? And speaking of weakness, I'm not quite sure how Madara could casually absorb the juubi, shinju and all (which had already killed and absorbed the power of thousands of shinobi) but couldn't handle the collective chakra of other non-RS-relevant humans. How did Black Zetsu/Kaguya manage to weaken him like that?

It is utterly impossible to compare this to the Madara-Obito scenario, as Madara was hinted at as an important character even before Kakashi Gaiden and Obito pretended to be him for 200+ chapters. Yes, Madara was the shadowy figure of legend who stepped forward when the time was right, but he had an established place in the manga from as far back as Part 1 (and being directly paralleled to the anti-hero, thus creating an early connection), already had a significantly-developed story long before he emerged as an Edo, had another major character actively pretending to be him on panel for years who was able to build him up for us, etc... And even then, years passed between his arrival as an Edo Tensei and his step over Obito into power.* Madara may have been a terror of legend, but he still had a real presence throughout much of the manga that was reiterated and built upon time and again; the same can not be said for Kaguya on any level.* The idea of Kaguya suddenly being the one behind everything is entirely incomparable, and it's bizarre that anyone might claim it's similar.


(Post 1 of 2)


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## PikaCheeka (Jun 4, 2014)

(post 2 of 2)


There is also no point in waiting to "give her a chance". It is too late for that. This is the endgame. You can't drastically change things this much this late in the story. *When you are writing something for 15 years, it's necessary to weave someone as critical as the main villain into the plot for years and years, to develop them, to make us care about them, to make us aware of their potential existence.* I see many people making jokes about how this is like a Final Fantasy game, but...even the last-minute turnovers in video games are monsters/people discussed regularly throughout the story. Backtracking to tell us that she was always the juubi or, as some claim, the death god, doesn't cut it. I know some people are fine with this kind of writing but it really is not acceptable.

It would be stupid enough if the juubi, staying a mindless and wrathful beast, managed to overpower Madara and rampage. However, that would at least make sense given what we know about bijuu (even if it had a mind and a personality, this would make sense!). It wouldn't require extensive retcons. It wouldn't require a near-erasure of a heavily developed character. This was a scenario that, while not exactly good, was at least in keeping with the logic of the universe, was slightly foreshadowed (at least with the idea of jinns loosing control), and didn't do unbelievable disservice to the characters involved (because really, this is doing everyone a disservice)

Trying to say that the juubi is actually this person Kaguya (which makes little sense due to the matter of the shinju anyway) doesn't explain away the fact that this character came out of nowhere. If Kishi wanted to make the juubi the big villain, he should have kept the juubi as the juubi. He shouldn't have randomly tried to give them a human body and personality (that has its own very human story) last-minute. *Any hint of the juubi being "final villain", real or imagined, does not indicate any foreshadowing of Kaguya being a player in this game more than 10 chapters ago.*

If you could have looked at the manga three years ago, two years ago, even just a year ago, and said "Yes, clearly the main villain is this Kaguya, an alien woman who desires to turn the entire human race into her private army, perhaps for a space battle." then maybe you'd have a point. Even if you didn't know her name, you'd have a point. Unfortunately, this is not something anyone could possibly have predicted without some heavy drugs. *Believe it or not, there is a difference between a surprise twist and a total asspull.* There were plenty of surprise twists in this manga that angered people, caught them off guard, but the majority had been hinted at, foreshadowed, for years, and they actually had substance and ties to the story's other themes and characters. But this? No.

Don't try to tell me she was planned (and by "planned", I mean  at least one year in advance; this manga is from the '90s. Saying "oh Kishi hinted at this a month ago!" is a joke). Don't try to tell me she wasn't a last-minute retcon designed very recently solely because Kishi didn't know how to deal with Madara. If you think that, if you think this is honestly "good writing", you're a total fool. There is no hope for you. You're the type of apologist who thinks there is no such thing as objectively terrible writing, who tries to force their speshul snowflake syndrome into the literary realm. Just accept it. *This isn't about "being right". This isn't about being fans or haters of one character or another. This is about what is and isn't acceptable in a work of fiction, and Kishi has crossed a line here unprecedented in anything I have ever seen.* I don't pretend to be a great author by any means, and even I could have found a dozen ways to work with things without this joke of a Deus Ex Machina. I'm sure many of us could.

So no. This is not "just about" Madara dying or randomly being usurped. It's not even "just about" Madara. It's about the fact that the author just threw who was clearly intended to be the main villain of the series into the shredder because he admitted he didn't know how to handle him and in doing so, compromising the very fabric of his universe's logic, the messages and themes he was trying to represent in this story, and the entire story itself. Kishi has just destroyed his manga, and he destroyed it with Kaguya. There is no getting around this. Yes, I am a Madara fan. Yes, I am wildly in love with him and this broke my heart last week. And yes, I am also a literature fan. I am a fan of stories. And here is a story that I have invested five years of my life in that the author just utterly destroyed for no reason. I can honestly say that this has offended and hurt. Yes, it's his story, and yes, he can do what he wants, but there comes a point when a story becomes so big that it belongs to more than just you. All authors know this. It's the nature of writing. Kishi doesn’t seem to care though. *Even if this had nothing to do with my favorite character being destroyed, I’d be utterly baffled at this sudden turn of events and the author’s behavior and treatment of his own creation.* Maybe this is just the casual author in my speaking, but it’s utterly surreal.

He abruptly turned the manga around in the end game and it’s rapidly becoming some bizarre ghost-family space-odyssey where the main themes of the story that have been with us since the Land of Waves are no longer relevant and where established characters that he doesn’t know how to handle anymore are literally just erased.

*I feel betrayed by Kishimoto here, as we all should, regardless of our character fandoms, regardless of who we root for or who we hate, because in the end, we are all fans of Naruto, and the manga we know and love is gone forever.*

Bye again.

(PS - Don't ask me any questions about my last week. I am not the subject of this thread.)


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## theworks (Jun 4, 2014)

If you expecting more than mediocre writing after the Tobito reveal, then your expectations were simply too high.


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## Nagato Sennin (Jun 4, 2014)

Naruto the Manga I love is still here so.......


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## Arles Celes (Jun 4, 2014)

Madara may still have a role to play either by fighting Kaguya alongside Obito or after Kaguya is beaten.

I don't think he is done yet and I doubt Obito is either.

Now though Kaguya is in charge. She is the strongest and baddest villain around.

Anyway since the Obito reveal you should have expected that something like that may happen. Things will go the way Kishi wants them to go(with some editor advice as well) and all readers can do is to keep in mind at all times that things may turn bad when it comes to their favorite characters or expectations.

When one believes that he knows how Kishi plans to handle what comes next and will not troll a character that he is a fan of then he is for a rude awakening. You trusted too much in Kishi planning to handle the manga exactly how YOU would handle it and got fooled by hype and interview exaggerations. On the plus side you can expect Kaguya's fate to not be so much greater than Madara's. She will probably be tnj as well.


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## Trojan (Jun 4, 2014)

I really do not care about madara, but I'm glad that you are okay and did not do something retarded (Suicide?) 
even though I always disagree with your point of view about Minato and Naruto.


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## PikaCheeka (Jun 4, 2014)

Any "u mad" replies only prove my point further that this manga has fallen to the level of only appealing to the lowest common denominator, and that is the readers who don't care about the story but only care about harassing other fandoms.

Funny how this forum makes one feel like they ought to apologize for genuinely caring about the manga and being upset when the story stops making sense.



Arles Celes said:


> Madara may still have a role to play either by fighting Kaguya alongside Obito or after Kaguya is beaten.
> 
> I don't think he is done yet and I doubt Obito is either.
> 
> Now though Kaguya is in charge. She is the strongest and baddest villain around.



Madara will be the one to weaken her enough for her to be sealed, yes.

That doesn't change what happened though.


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## Cord (Jun 4, 2014)

Might want to remind again, (to those whose posts I've just deleted) to address the topic and not anything or anyone else.

Thank you.


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> Any "u mad" replies only prove my point further that this manga has fallen to the level of only appealing to the lowest common denominator, and that is the readers who don't care about the story but only care about harassing other fandoms.
> 
> I didn't even have to look for examples.



Madara was a WEAK Final Villain who only had a connection with Hashirama ,  while Kaguya literally encompasses all the things that has happened in NV.


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## Dragonus-BB- (Jun 4, 2014)

I don't have time to comment on your whole essay, but this 'next villain' reveal felt like the way the final chapter/battle in your typical/traditional JRPG goes. Which isn't to say it's good writing, no.

As disappointed as you may be about this turn, I wouldn't go calling anything yet. This may not be too bad in the end, especially when you consider that the previous MEP result was hardly the worst possible loss for the protagonists' side.

On the other hand, this may turn out to be Naruto what Z was to Dragon Ball, although I'd argue that part 2 in general fulfills this role; it's really just the whole 'aliens!' thing and recent jumps in scale that make it feel that way.

I will say that this chapter is just another that cements that I am not reading about the same fantasy world as I was just a few years ago.


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## babaGAReeb (Jun 4, 2014)

so u didnt do it? thank god lol


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## Aazadan (Jun 4, 2014)

While I agree with a few of your points you're taking that "I don't know how to handle Madara" thing a bit too literally.  That was Kishi simply stating that Madara is really powerful.  Of course he knew how he was going to handle Madara.  For whatever reason however Kaguya is now the villain and she's even stronger than Madara.  Whatever was going to be Madara's end will now be hers.


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

Kaguya is the Alpha, and by right she is also the Omega.


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## Invictus-Kun (Jun 4, 2014)

No, this is just a normal kishi phenomenon


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## The Faceless Man (Jun 4, 2014)

> This is a manga for kids.... grown people should enjoy the cool factor.
> This manga turned to shit a long time ago.
> you read the manga just for madara and you said it alot of times
> its time you leave NF


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## Stelios (Jun 4, 2014)

PikaCheeka Shonen Manga's target group is 10-18. You have long passed the age where you can be impressed by this level of writing.


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## Rokudaime (Jun 4, 2014)

It was amazing to see Madara got off'ed like a fodder. Good job, Kishimoto.


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

You can also apply your logic  for Pein and Tobi fans  who felt "betrayed" by Kishi's writing for making them a puppet of a puppet of a puppet.

So ultimately, your definition of "betrayal" is merely subjective fueled by your favoritism towards Madara


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## jacamo (Jun 4, 2014)

i completely agree Pika... the manga we loved is gone forever... i would even say its been gone for several hundred chapters, but thats just me

i think it ultimately comes down to Kishi being out of his depth in terms of what the fans wanted out of this story... it was too much of an undertaking for him... or maybe the editors tampered too much and things just went off the rails

Kaguya was literally created on the fly to end the series... this is so shit


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## ch1p (Jun 4, 2014)

I agree with pika and jacamo.


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## PikaCheeka (Jun 4, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> Anyway since the Obito reveal you should have expected that something like that may happen. Things will go the way Kishi wants them to go(with some editor advice as well) and all readers can do is to keep in mind at all times that things may turn bad when it comes to their favorite characters or expectations.
> 
> When one believes that he knows how Kishi plans to handle what comes next and will not troll a character that he is a fan of then he is for a rude awakening. You trusted too much in Kishi planning to handle the manga exactly how YOU would handle it and got fooled by hype and interview exaggerations. On the plus side you can expect Kaguya's fate to not be so much greater than Madara's. She will probably be tnj as well.



I have said multiple times that this isn't about favorite characters. I would be angry regardless of who my favorite was because all of a sudden the main villain is this nobody who showed up 6 chapters ago and wants to turn the human race into an alien army so she can go have intergalactic space battles. 

I didn't trust Kishi to handle the manga "exactly" how I would handle it. I trusted him to handle it decently. I had many expected scenarios that I was not thrilled with, but were manageable and vaguely logical from a literary perspective. I never expected him to handle it "exactly as I would handle it" because I know he can't do that.

And no, I was not fooled by hype and interview words. Pretty sure I only even mentioned them once. 

You're only seeing what you want to in this.



Dragonus-BB- said:


> I don't have time to comment on your whole essay, but this 'next villain' reveal felt like the way the final chapter/battle in your typical/traditional JRPG goes. Which isn't to say it's good writing, no.



I don't think so. Most video games I have played had the main final villain character at least...moderately present throughout much of the series? Those Final Fantasy monsters who emerged at the very end did not come from nowhere. We knew who/what they were and we knew that from very early in the game.



> As disappointed as you may be about this turn, I wouldn't go calling anything yet. This may not be too bad in the end, especially when you consider that the previous MEP result was hardly the worst possible loss for the protagonists' side.
> 
> On the other hand, this may turn out to be Naruto what Z was to Dragon Ball, although I'd argue that part 2 in general fulfills this role; it's really just the whole 'aliens!' thing and recent jumps in scale that make it feel that way.



The "aliens" thing is ridiculous. I kept telling myself it was a joke but now that she wants an army for some unknown purpose that sure as hell isn't for earth domination, I'm kind of concerned about it.



> I will say that this chapter is just another that cements that I am not reading about the same fantasy world as I was just a few years ago.



Exactly.



Aazadan said:


> While I agree with a few of your points you're taking that "I don't know how to handle Madara" thing a bit too literally.  That was Kishi simply stating that Madara is really powerful.  Of course he knew how he was going to handle Madara.  For whatever reason however Kaguya is now the villain and she's even stronger than Madara.  Whatever was going to be Madara's end will now be hers.



As I told AC, this was barely relevant to my essay.



Invcitusmaster said:


> No, this is just a normal kishi phenomenon



Actually it's not and I explained how it's not.


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## Aazadan (Jun 4, 2014)

Stelios said:


> PikaCheeka Shonen Manga's target group is 10-18. You have long passed the age where you can be impressed by this level of writing.



That might be the target age group but it doesn't mean that's the only age group.  Kishi adds a lot of depth to Naruto that 10-18 year olds aren't going to grasp such as the depth of mental illnesses he gives his characters and the general state of their world.

The Kaguya stuff makes no sense right now, everything she's done and represents is something Madara could have done.  Things are usually done for a reason though so... we'll see.


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## CuteJuubi (Jun 4, 2014)

Well OP, Kishi is no Tolstoy or Dostoevsky, and tbh the plot post-Pein has been merely an artificial extension to prolong the series way past its due.


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## Arles Celes (Jun 4, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> Any "u mad" replies only prove my point further that this manga has fallen to the level of only appealing to the lowest common denominator, and that is the readers who don't care about the story but only care about harassing other fandoms.
> 
> Funny how this forum makes one feel like they ought to apologize for genuinely caring about the manga and being upset when the story stops making sense.
> 
> ...




I think he may even make a comeback after she is defeated by taking all of her power and challenging Naruto and Sasuke to a final round. It kinda reminds me of a psx game Wild Arms when the main villain Zeikfried had his body taken over by Mother who was the bigger bad. After Mother was defeated he returned by overcoming death itself to challenge the heros for a final fight.

That or as you mentioned he may troll Kaguya by weakening her. Maybe regain control of his body for a moment so that Naruto and Sasuke finish her of.

I guess Kishi also has to explain how Madara survived VoTE. So there is still one mystery for Madara to stay around.

You may take some hope for the fact that while Madara was taken over he wasn't revealed to follow BZ orders or anything and apart from that mysterious voice told him to absorb Shinju he did all on his own accord. Of course Kishi may change that too and include some remote mind control/mind influence BUT as for now he was still his own boss till now.


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## PikaCheeka (Jun 4, 2014)

jacamo said:


> i completely agree Pika... the manga we loved is gone forever... i would even say its been gone for several hundred chapters, but thats just me
> 
> i think it ultimately comes down to Kishi being out of his depth in terms of what the fans wanted out of this story... it was too much of an undertaking for him... or maybe the editors tampered too much and things just went off the rails
> 
> Kaguya was literally created on the fly to end the series... this is so shit



Unfortunately I think the he just got out of his depth with the story in general. It's not so much about fan or editor expectations as it is his inability to actually work through characters who pose "problems" for the simplistic messages of the manga because they somehow ended up more complicated than he intended them to be (Obito, Madara). He doesn't know how to handle them so he either turns them into plot devices (Obito) or just erases them (Madara). Kaguya is such a grossly shallow character right now that she can't possibly pose an issue for him.



ch1p said:


> I agree with pika and jacamo.







Aazadan said:


> That might be the target age group but it doesn't mean that's the only age group.  Kishi adds a lot of depth to Naruto that 10-18 year olds aren't going to grasp such as the depth of mental illnesses he gives his characters and the general state of their world.



^ This is important. The "this is shounen" argument only flies so high.



> The Kaguya stuff makes no sense right now, everything she's done and represents is something Madara could have done.  Things are usually done for a reason though so... we'll see.



I'm not really expecting a reason anymore. She is entirely superfluous.


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## Lammy (Jun 4, 2014)

Pika, you have clearly forgotten about the build up and downfall of characters like Gaara, Orochimaru, Pein...

Madara really only had ties with Hashirama and to a lesser extent Sasuke. As soon as the Sage gifted Naruto/Sasuke it was over. Madara fulfilled his role.

Tobito was the good one for Kakashi and Naruto. He fulfilled his role too when Madara merked him.

Both characters were pretty random the first time we were introduced back in Part 2 all those many years ago too. It's the law of escalation haha...

With Kaguya we need the time and added backstory to give her the chance. If it becomes a Matrix meets Prometheus vibe for the next 5 years then so be it...


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## ?_Camorra_? (Jun 4, 2014)

But i liked Blob Madara this chapter


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 4, 2014)

Thank god you are alive Peeka. Last 2 weeks were suicide worthy for Maddy fans. 

But I feel your pain. Kishimoto wasting Madara like fodder was pretty low, even for a guy like me who doesn't even like Madara.


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

So what if Madara was being used from the start? Wouldn't that wash his hands from the culpability of all that's happening now? being manipulated from the start is good writing for Kishi to give him redemption like Obito's, and that he will finally realize the saying that what goes around comes around aka Karma.

To me, some in the Madara fandom only care about Madara's prestige as an all-knowing genius manipulator and all-powerful villain, the reality is he is not, the arrogant got humbled, and in his fallen state he will repent and redeem himself.


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## Arles Celes (Jun 4, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> I have said multiple times that this isn't about favorite characters. I would be angry regardless of who my favorite was because all of a sudden the main villain is this nobody who showed up 6 chapters ago and wants to turn the human race into an alien army so she can go have intergalactic space battles.
> 
> I didn't trust Kishi to handle the manga "exactly" how I would handle it. I trusted him to handle it decently. I had many expected scenarios that I was not thrilled with, but were manageable and vaguely logical from a literary perspective. I never expected him to handle it "exactly as I would handle it" because I know he can't do that.
> 
> ...



Nah, its just the pattern with all villains.

Oro was main villain of part 1 and then once he appeared in part 2 he became a laughingstock as Sasuke casually owned him and then Itachi owned him again as if he were an afterthought. 

Then Nagato lost so early despite being built up as the ultimate invincible villain who even killed Jiraiya. He was tnj and changed his beliefs in like 3 minutes.

Then Kabuto was defeated in a humilliating manner with Itachi patting him in the head as a bonus. He got angsty flashbacks and finally was tnj too.

Then Tobi who was the villain who had the most panel time in part 2 did nothing but think about Rin after the reveal. Was turned out to be a puppet in a bigger game and was tnj.

It was clear that Madara's fate wouldn't be much different than that of everyone else. If a writer handles TONS of villains in a similar way then clearly no one will get an "unique" treatment or anything of the sort unless they are too minor for Kishi to bother.

And I'm a fan of Madara too(though a moderate one). Its just that I hardly expected him to be special in Kishi's eyes and neither do I expect Kaguya to be. Thats all.

Kishi loves to build up someone/something but always fails to deliver at the very end. Keeping expectations low is the key.


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## Star★Platinum (Jun 4, 2014)

Marathoning the shit out of ALL parts of JoJo's bizarre adventure just made me realize more so how awful this manga is.  Thank fuck it only takes up 5 minutes of my time each week to see how it ends.


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## TasteTheDifference (Jun 4, 2014)

Kaguya isn't the main event though, anymore than Madara was, all of this is a prelude to the Naruto vs Sasuke fight, which won't just be an epilogue or an afterthought.  Kishimoto is just repeating here what he's been doing the entire arc, passing backwards chronologically to increase the threat and capacity for info dump, which is the real issue in that many authors of fantasy series love going into the etiology of it all, Madara could never have satisfied his desire of an ultimate cause to war chakra bijuu or whatever, he was born a thousand years too late


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## Addy (Jun 4, 2014)

i said this for months but no one listens 

as much as i don't like madara and see kaguya as nothing more than fapping material for the hardcore natukushi fans, i have to admit, this is crappy writing. 

i don't like madara or kaguya to be honest. however, this is like replacing itachi with a third brother sasuke never had and they suddenly hit it on but wait!!!!!!!!!! that brother is actually  a sister increasing that interest for the shippers!!!!!!. 

kaguya was given the byakugan not to give hyuuga relevance as much as giving kaguya herself relevance to the fandom. she has teh byakugan = hinata's eyes = naruhina fandom (no offense) = more fans. 

i have no fucking clue what in the 10 fucking hells is kishi thinking here aside from completing the  obito/juubi parallel where madara breaks free from kaguya's random ass takeover.   

yes, madara is relatively new to the manga is one day old (manga time). yes, he became too hax for his own good. yes, kishi said he didn't how to defeat him. but, madara was given so far two different back stories, two different character rewrites in terms of powers, personality, character design and even goals. kishi sacrificed a lot to make this character that doesn't need to exist? so madara can be redeemed? really? can't hashirama do that? TNJ is suddenly not good enough for you, kishi? or was she created for spank material cause there aint as much naruto hentai doujins coming out these days that are not yaoi?.

again, the only thing i am looking forward to with kaguya is her hentai. power wise, she is interesting but  goal wise, she is just madara 2.0 at this point and personality wise, she has none so far. backstory wise..... listen, the only way i will give a single fuck about kaguya is if her father was itachi, king of the hyuuga rabbit bitches and he shuns her out cause she was an ass to people.

btw, i am very happy you are back, pika! and thankfully, the two of us agree on something


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## Saturnine (Jun 4, 2014)

That's kinda true. Kaguya has no characterization, no backstory, no personality. She simply isn't fleshed out enough. There's gotta be something more to this. I think we'd better wait for next week.


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## jacamo (Jun 4, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> Unfortunately I think the he just got out of his depth with the story in general. It's not so much about fan or editor expectations as it is his inability to actually work through characters who pose "problems" for the simplistic messages of the manga because they somehow ended up more complicated than he intended them to be (Obito, Madara). He doesn't know how to handle them so he either turns them into plot devices (Obito) or just erases them (Madara). Kaguya is such a grossly shallow character right now that she can't possibly pose an issue for him.



i agree... he has failed on so many levels

its not just about the recent villains Obito and Madara either... what about the fuck-ton of characters that fans actually cared about that Kishi completely dumped? like the rookies and the characters from other villages


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

Saturnine said:


> That's kinda true. Kaguya has no characterization, no backstory, no personality. She simply isn't fleshed out enough. There's gotta be something more to this. I think we'd better wait for next week.



Yes wait, because OBVIOUSLY Kishi is going to flesh out her character more being the big baddy of this manga.


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## Hydro Spiral (Jun 4, 2014)

I had a feeling Pika would be back this week...

Basically agreeing with the essay. Madara's establishment is my biggest reason against this turn of events.


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

Kaguya is the saving grace of this Manga that Madara and Obito dragged to boredom.


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## Kai (Jun 4, 2014)

Understand your frustration OP. Madara shouldn't have been erased so instantly when even Obito was given chance to struggle and at least visually exist.

However, to say Kaguya is a total retcon (alike the rest of the forum) is something I disagree with. If we knew everything about Madara's history and the history of Hagoromo's time, her appearance would make no sense. But we don't know shit about Madara's life after VOTE, nor do we know anything beyond the tip of the iceberg of Hagoromo's time, or his brother. What we do know has little to nothing to do with her. What we don't yet know may have *everything* to do with her.

Kaguya was brought to the center most likely to fill all of that space. What, are we going to wait until Madara turns a new leaf and is given closure until _he_ reveals how he survived VOTE and all of his actions thereafter?

If Kaguya was involved in those unexplained events at all, she's going to be the one to reveal how her hand played a part with Madara and what happened during the battle between her and her sons.



theworks said:


> If you expecting more than mediocre writing after the Tobito reveal, then your expectations were simply too high.


The thing is, Kishimoto in all likelihood knew Tobito reveal was obvious, and he *owned* it. The fact that Obito is still here (99% sure he's not dead) and has a role to play is evidence that Kishi took that reveal to the bank and still hasn't thrown it away.


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## vagnard (Jun 4, 2014)

While I agree with you in many points the main reason because people like you or other Madara fans are trolled is because they trolled Obito and other villians a lot and claimed all the time Madara was an "exception".

I really lost my hope in this manga after Itachi's death and Sasuke's completely OCC transformation into "Taka Sasuke". After that the only character I cared was Tobi. But after Obito revelation and Real Madara boring personality I couldn't care about them anymore. 

We ALL told you many times that all villians are trolled in this manga. ALL. There is no exception. It will be the same for Kaguya who seems to be the new shiny toy of the fan wars. Kishimoto simply can't handle a villian so in order to hype a new villian he trolls the previous one. 

I doubt there will be another villian after Kaguya but she seems clearly TNJ material as a woman and the fact she wanted to stop wars and shit. Also the same will happen at the end with Sasuke who will turn into another Naruto's fanboy after being beaten. 

Sasuke is the final opponent. End of the discussion. Kishimoto has been hyping that battle the entire manga. Call it rivalry battle, final villian, final antagonist... I don't care. Nagato, Obito, Madara and Kaguya are just stepping stones for Kishimoto's anticipated yaoifest.


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## Herpules (Jun 4, 2014)

I dunno, Madara didn't even feel like Madara anymore when he got that powerful, he was basically the reincarnation fo Kaguya at that point, so it makes sense she would take over in a way

It's still silly


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## Addy (Jun 4, 2014)

celebrei said:


> Kaguya is the saving grace of this Manga that Madara and Obito dragged to boredom.



this is the same crap i saw people write down with obito, then madara, and now kaguya. wait for another 20 chapters before she bores you again and then the pig goddess who is actually kaguya's mother was controlling her all this time. 

just mark my words. i said it years ago and it happened.


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## Golden Witch (Jun 4, 2014)

Never thought I'd agree on something with Pika.Holy shit.


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## TRN (Jun 4, 2014)

Please don't go Pika  But kishimoto fuck up bad


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

Madara's insertion into the story had been more detrimental to the overall cohesion of the plot. He was simply introduced to "wow" kids with his flashy jutsus and parlor tricks, but his existence in this war was completely superfluous and unnecessary.


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## Sete (Jun 4, 2014)

Well thats like, your opinion man.


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## Revolution (Jun 4, 2014)

Naruto: I will take the hatred from your heart



SJ: make a part 3, ka-ching?


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

Sete said:


> Well thats like, your opinion man.



Like I said, the OP's reasoning is merely personal bias and subjective opinion, you can write this essay by replacing Madara with either Pain or Tobi and substitute Kaguya with "Madara" and it will still mean the same thing : personal opinion.


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## sakuraboobs (Jun 4, 2014)

I agree with the OP.

I still don't get Kaguya's character at all. She appeared out of nowhere with no foreshadowing whatsoever. Kaguya's so random. 

How can a a character like that become the FV when Madara was a extremely good character and villain.


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## DeK3iDE (Jun 4, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> Now though Kaguya is in charge. She is the strongest and baddest villain around.


while she is the strongest, it's entirely subjective and reactionary to say she is the baddest when she has shown absolutely no substance as a character so far. I liked her for a while and even i can see that. Ppl are basically doing with Kaguya what Drake does with sports teams. And for no other purpose than to just mark out to whoever is showing the most over the top power feats. Not to turn this into a fan war or anything, but ppl have been doing it with plenty of others. Madara is just the latest person ppl started to stop jocking because someone else is around to satisfy those superficial needs.



> When one believes that he knows how Kishi plans to handle what comes next and will not troll a character that he is a fan of then he is for a rude awakening. You trusted too much in Kishi planning to handle the manga exactly how YOU would handle it and got fooled by hype and interview exaggerations.


i always knew there was going to be some bullshit way Madara got written out, but nothing could've prepared me for the absurdity that was shown. It doesn't make the slightest bit of sense that Madara was allowed to absorb all of the chakra the Shinju took back, only to suddenly not be able to absorb chakra so well in the current chapter. That is just straight bullshit no matter how anyone tries to cut it.




celebrei said:


> Madara was a WEAK Final Villain who only had a connection with Hashirama ,  while Kaguya literally encompasses all the things that has happened in NV.


if that was the case then what's your explanation for how Madara got built up for hundreds of chapters and is basically associated with a number of things that happened over the course of time that led up to the series' beginning while Kaguya's only connection is to things that happened in her own time period. She has nothing at all to do with the current day and age or even the ppl involved for that matter. How did you come to this "literally encompasses all the things that happened" garbage?


Aazadan said:


> While I agree with a few of your points you're taking that "I don't know how to handle Madara" thing a bit too literally.  That was Kishi simply stating that Madara is really powerful.  Of course he knew how he was going to handle Madara.  For whatever reason however Kaguya is now the villain and she's even stronger than Madara.  Whatever was going to be Madara's end will now be hers.


actually he didn't. There have been numerous interviews where he specfically said in no way that could possibly be misconstrued that he had 0 idea as to how he was going to write Madara out. ForneverWorld pretty much called it when he basically said something assbackwards like this was going to happen because Kishimoto insisted on advancing the plot while having 0 idea what he was going to do with Madara ever since he got summoned.



PikaCheeka said:


> I don't think so. Most video games I have played had the main final villain character at least...moderately present throughout much of the series? Those Final Fantasy monsters who emerged at the very end did not come from nowhere. We knew who/what they were and we knew that from very early in the game.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## PikaCheeka (Jun 4, 2014)

Ah shit wasn't expecting to have a lot of replies to hit back. I'm out of habit and rep. 



Kai said:


> Understand your frustration OP. Madara shouldn't have been erased so instantly when even Obito was given chance to struggle and at least visually exist.
> 
> However, to say Kaguya is a total retcon (alike the rest of the forum) is something I disagree with. If we knew everything about Madara's history and the history of Hagoromo's time, her appearance would make no sense. But we don't know shit about Madara's life after VOTE, nor do we know anything beyond the tip of the iceberg of Hagoromo's time, or his brother. What we do know has little to nothing to do with her. What we don't yet know may have *everything* to do with her.
> 
> ...



Everything can be explained _without _Kaguya. It's not like there were things in this plot that made no sense and couldn't be explained by other characters. Madara's life after VotE can obviously be explained by him, and it makes far more sense for him to explain it, after all. Extensive information on the RS' family is not and never was necessary. All that mattered were Indra and Ashura. 

If anything, Kaguya has just added more plotholes and things that make no sense. It's ridiculous to claim "Kaguya was brought into the story to explain what happened to Madara after VotE" when Madara was right there and perfectly capable of telling his own story. That said, wasn't she sealed in the moon for most of his life?

I repeat, she is _entirely_ superfluous.


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## SharkBomb 4 (Jun 4, 2014)

If Kaguya is building an army for fucking space combat I will be seriously pissed. I hope it's just a standing army she wants to build since she's lost her mind.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 4, 2014)

Firstly, PikaCheeka, I can completely understand your anger. Madara had been solidified as an important character with important ties to everything in the manga all throughout Part II. Being casted aside so haphazardly may seem extremely random and poor handling of his character. I know if this was Tsunade, I'd be pretty mad if she was thrown aside for someone whose character was only introduced a short while ago.

_However_, from a plot perspective, I think Kaguya's appearance was fundamental. From the minute the Juubi was referenced over 200 chapters ago, we already knew that the original ties and foundations of shinobi were a lot older than Madara, and it is only natural that they should be elaborated on and explored. Madara could never have been the real progenitor of hatred and destruction, because with the Juubi's appearance and the stone tablet's existence he was obviously just another part of the bigger picture.

Also, in my opinion, the story was getting a bit boring (or at least, it was certainly heading in that direction). We have had about 100 chapters of seeing Madara fight _constantly_, and while he's obviously going to get closure, as you said, Kaguya's appearance and powers bring some change and make the manga more interesting. It's more refreshing than seeing him shoot those black balls around constantly. Also, she's only just been introduced, so I think it's a bit soon to say that she has no substance as a character (although she is a woman in Kishi's manga, so I don't expect anything wonderful)

I understand your frustration, though.​​


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

I think the Madara fandom has to accept the reality of the demystification of Madara as an all-powerful and all-knowing villain because he simply isn't, Madara, much like Obito, are VICTIMS.

If you do not accept or have realized that Madara was merely a victim then you do not know your own fave char.


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## Roman (Jun 4, 2014)

celebrei said:


> Madara was a WEAK Final Villain who only had a connection with Hashirama ,  while Kaguya literally encompasses all the things that has happened in NV.



And this fact has been established when? 2010? 2005? A character who is meant to encompass "everything" that happened in Naruto shouldn't have been mentioned for the first time within the last two months, *but within the first two months that the series started* i.e. year 1999. Part 1 did that with Minato, it did it with Hashirama, it did it with Orochimaru. Figure this: we didn't even get to know about Hagoromo until somewhere halfway in part 2, not to mention we only recently got to know his real name. I'm not exactly a huge fan of Madara, but OP has a point about Madara having had far more time to establish himself as the FV than Kaguya ever did.

Personally, ever since Obito was revealed as the one behind Tobi's mask, I've more or less lost hope that the FV would be "fitting," not to mention Danzo would've been a far better FV considering his relationship with Hiruzen, his role behind the Uchiha massacre and his secret alliance with Orochimaru. Actually, scratch what I said about Obito, I should've lost hope about the FV being a properly developed villain ever since Oro was sidelined in part 2 after part 1 worked so hard to establish him as the main villain from start to finish. Either he or Danzo would've been really good.

This new development with Madara and later Kaguya goes against the whole notion of the new generations surpassing the old ones. It was bad enough that Madara was too powerful considering it contradicts that theme, but having Kaguya "come back" only makes it worse since she's had even less time to establish her role as the FV than Madara. It's shoddy writing and contradicts some of the facts that were reveled even within the last two months (which coincides with the time-frame we've been given to familiarize ourselves with Kaguya as the readers).

tl;dr, Kaguya sucks, the manga's been on a quality free fall ever since Oro and Danzo were sidelined/killed off.


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## Arya Stark (Jun 4, 2014)

The thing is...you are right. But I don't understand how you didn't see it coming.

I've been saying that the more hype a villain receives, the shittier defeat becomes and as a Madara supporter, I was well aware of it. We even debated this several times.

Kishi just isn't a good writer. He's predictable. He doesn't know how to wrap up. Geez, even in Jump Festa he said "I made him too powerful lmao, I don't know how to get rid of him fuck" It's not a good sign when a writer thinks that way, joke or not. Just where did you get the idea Madara was above Obito and Pain?

This is just what we have now. I understand you want to share your feelings on subject but this isn't something brand new. Kaguya didn't kill manga, it was already a dead horse by that point.


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## Nuuskis (Jun 4, 2014)

I agree with every point OP made here. It's very stupid of Kishi to introduce just another villain to the table at this point of the story and even so suddenly. We are at the climax here with this final battle between good guys vs. Akatsuki. As I said last week, Madara would have been the perfect main villain here, as OP said, he had good backstory, character development, clear motive and goal etc. And Kishi even managed to make him seem like a real threat when he soloed the 5 Kage and even dropped a fucking meteorite! It's clear to most of us that he decided to replace Madara with Kaguya on the fly. 

I personally think this manga has been on a straight downfall ever since the horrible backstory as why Obito joined with Madara. Then there have been some really shitty plots like Juubi=Tree & people have chakra because Kaguya ate a fruit and now this. 

Madara is not my favorite character even though I think Edo Madara was the best thing that happened during the Shinobi World War arc but I can also tell that what Kishi just did here was abysmal writing on completely new level.


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## Revolution (Jun 4, 2014)

celebrei said:


> So what if Madara was being used from the start? Wouldn't that wash his hands from the culpability of all that's happening now? being manipulated from the start is good writing for Kishi to give him redemption like Obito's, and that he will finally realize the saying that what goes around comes around aka Karma.



No.  It is not good writing.  It makes puppets out of everybody and removes the characters credibility.  If a character cannot even tak responsibility for its actions it is not even a character, but a husk.


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

Arya Stark said:


> The thing is...you are right. But I don't understand how you didn't see it coming.



The mind sees what it wants to see, denial is the most powerful anti-alias of the brain.

The fact that Kaguya's rape face enveloped the planet 2 chapters ago and they still didn't see her taking over Madara is more than enough proof.


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## Keishin (Jun 4, 2014)

It seems like you just can't understand Kishimotos writing... He obviously did this in order to find a legit way to give complete closure to everything that has been mentioned in the manga so far.  Kaguya probably just wants to revive her husband and we need to see Hagoromos brother.


Sasuke is going to be the Final Villain so Obito, Madara, Kaguya.. It doesn't matter.


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## Zyrax (Jun 4, 2014)

Please explain to me how Kaguya is a bland villain yet you are a adara fangirl who is pretty much the epitom of Generic take over da WOoooorld villain


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

Sarahmint said:


> No.  It is not good writing.  It makes puppets out of everybody and removes the characters credibility.  If a character cannot even tak responsibility for its actions it is not even a character, but a husk.



No, that is the dramatic impact, they are disillusioned and repent and finally they do something to redeem themselves and become their own person.


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## PikaCheeka (Jun 4, 2014)

I like how Cordelia deleted posts of certain people and publicly warned them and they keep right on posting. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thank god you are alive Peeka. Last 2 weeks were suicide worthy for Maddy fans.
> 
> But I feel your pain. Kishimoto wasting Madara like fodder was pretty low, even for a guy like me who doesn't even like Madara.



It has not been easy. 

It was surreal. People are quick to compare it to the treatment Nagato/Orochimaru/Obito/Kabuto got, but they were all defeated by legitimate, developed, established characters. Madara was literally just eaten without even a fight by this piece of garbage from six chapters ago that has no characterization whatsoever. 

It's about as stupid as if Kagami had popped up in the battlefield and one-shot Obito, taking his role as the main villain for the fight, and proceeded to dominate (though he had more of a personality than Kaguya does, admittedly).



Saturnine said:


> That's kinda true. Kaguya has no characterization, no backstory, no personality. She simply isn't fleshed out enough. There's gotta be something more to this. I think we'd better wait for next week.



It's too late. A character as important as Kishi is trying to make Kaguya needs to have at least begun some characterization and development years and years ago. You can't drop this cardboard cutout onto the battlefield 6 chapters after she appeared as a presence in the 15-year-long manga, call her the main villain behind everything, and then make up her story and her personality as you go. 

It doesn't matter what kind of characterization Kishi tries to give her now. He should have done this years ago.


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## Bruce Wayne (Jun 4, 2014)

I stop taking Naruto seriously during the Sai and Sasuke Arc. This is nothing new.


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## fallot (Jun 4, 2014)

I agree with pretty much everything in the first post but that hint of creeping, ranting insanity just puts you off. Exactly how invested are you in this work of fiction that this is your reaction? I have been reading this manga for about 10 years now but most of the joy I get out of it is watching people, usually just kids but sometimes grown men and women, lose all touch of reality. It just has not been that good for years, the magic, the essence of Naruto, a relatable struggle and a naive though endearing tenacity against impossible seeming odds (which is basically life, humanity) disappeared long ago. The focus switched completely to the plot which is garbage, to me at least. Its funny how weird and bad it can get though, not frustrating. 

I agree that a lot of people arent really apprecating the gravity of what has happened to this manga recently though. This guy is right, its unforgivably bad. It should go down in history as the worst trainwreck in a shonen manga ever, so clumsy, lame and sterile. That just makes it more hilarious though. At least the Bleach guy had the good sense to just repeat a previous arc in a different skin. It may be repetitive but it keeps the point, the nature of the manga alive instead of some convoluted plot that the author would not be able to handle.


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## DeK3iDE (Jun 4, 2014)

celebrei said:


> The mind sees what it wants to see, denial is the most powerful anti-alias of the brain.
> 
> The fact that Kaguya's rape face enveloped the planet 2 chapters ago and they still didn't see her taking over Madara is more than enough proof.


says the dude who wank hard on Sasuke enough to completely disregard facts 



Zyrax said:


> Please explain to me how Kaguya is a bland villain yet you are a adara fangirl who is pretty much the epitom of Generic take over da WOoooorld villain


if Madara's agenda has been controversial ever since his arrival, then it must mean he isn't bland. Kaguya is bland not because of her wanting to rule the world, but because she has 0 personality and her agenda doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. LIke Pika said, you shouldn't have bothered to comment if you weren't going to read the whole essay.


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## Amanda (Jun 4, 2014)

Uh, I really don't like the argument that "it's for kids so of course it sucks". Many kids shows are actually very well written, they just take into consideration what the intended audience can understand, and what is harmful to them. But this sudden new direction of the plot? I can't... are we really to see Naruto being turned into some alien story? I don't want to know what Kaguya wants that army for, and I hope Kishi never expands on it. I signed for a story about ninjas, not about rabbit aliens. And yes, I do keep reading the story. For the characters I care about. No matter what mangling the plot goes through.


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## Skull007 (Jun 4, 2014)

You're getting way too ahead TC; we don't even know if this is the end of madara

Still, if he comes back, he won't have the same objective and won't even be the same person... he may be even on naruto and sasuke's side


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## Turrin (Jun 4, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> the way Kishimoto just more or less erased him entirely from the manga, replacing him with this generic,


How can we tell how generic Kaguya is until we learn more about her? At least Kaguya has the chance to not be generic and her being a woman is already a step in the right direction as far as that's concerned. Madara on the other hand was as generic as they come in this manga, I.E. the Sasuke-parallel gone wrong. We've literally seen the exact same archetype of Madara's character play out twice before his appearance; Sasuke and Orochiamaru. His techniques may be different, but so will Kaguya's, so that's hardly an excuse.



> personality-less


How can we say Kaguya is personality-less, when we've only seen her utter a few words in the entire manga?  



> retcon


It's less of retecon and more of Kishimoto writing the story as he goes along, rather than having the main antagonist planned out from the beginning. I understand complaints as far as this method of writing is concerned and it does indeed force Kishimoto to retecon some-things in the story. However, what is not fair is targeting Kaguya for these complaints while praising Madara, as it's extremely clear that Madara's role and entire plot within the story is something Kishi also wrote as he went along, and has also caused many retecon's. In-fact ether it was writing Madara's plot for Mugen-Tsukuyomi/Juubi that got Kishimoto create Kaguya or it was trying to get to Kaguya that got Kishi to create Madara's plot. So pick your poison, ether Madara wouldn't have existed as we see him in the manga without Kaguya or Kaguya exists because of Madara. 



> a character who is not only the new supposed main villain, but who only had a presence in the manga 5 chapters before last week.


It's way too soon to say that. If BZ is literally Kaguya's mind, than Kaguya has had a presence since Part I of the story, which is just as long as Madara's presence, but actually a more overt presence in the story. 

However ether way, again nether character was one planned from the beginning, both Madara and Kaguya were characters written into the story as Kishi went along. We didn't even see a hint of Madara's presence until 200 some chapters into the story. His appearance wasn't shown until 400 chapters in, and we didn't actually get to see him interact with anyone in this war. 

Again you can't complain about Kaguya, but give Madara a free pass. If you prefer writing where the  main villain is established early on and his presence is felt throughout. Than you shouldn't like Kaguya, Madara, or any direction the story has taken recently, and rather argue that Orochimaru or Kabuto should have been FV, and their goal shouldn't have extended beyond getting an Uchiha's body. Which if that were your belief i'd support you in it fully, but none of this oh Madara's great, but Kaguya is not, when they both have their genesis in the same style of writing.



> Though I do still believe he will make a comeback and be the one to stab that third eye out, thus weakening her enough for her to be sealed (he has to get closure; even after this week I have difficulty believing the story can be that awful), the treatment he received was abysmal and even people who despise him must acknowledge this.


So you want him to have an incredible generic villain redemption conclusion, yet are complaining that Kaguya being generic. Double standards much.



> It made sense, and was foreseeable as far back as when Obito first claimed to be him.


That was as late into the story as the Uchiha bros arc, again Madara is also clearly a character Kishimoto wrote into the story as he went. Just because he's been in the story longer, doesn't change that. 

-----------

The rest of this stuff your citing is too soon to tell, as we need more information on Kaguya and any analysis that is trying to be fair as well as accurate should wait till we've seen more of Kaguya to start arguing these points.


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## Tayimus (Jun 4, 2014)

I wish we had at least gotten a Madara Flashback.  Wtf a flashback for every goddamn character, even frigging Gai, but none for Madara?  I don't get to see how he survived his battle with Hashirama at the Valley of the End?  I had to suffer through all the useless flashbacks but I don't get that question answered.  That's not fair!

But yes, I agree with the OP.  Madara was firmly established as the Final Villain, effectively forshadowed, with ties to everything, including the MCs.  In fact, I remember speaking with someone on here bout how, looking back on the manga as a whole, it felt that Madara was supposed to be revealed even earlier.  I personally feel that in very first versions of the story, Madara was actually supposed to be AL (Akatsuki Leader, what we referred to Pain before he was revealed) but somehow that angle got reworked.  And now it's been reworked again.  It's nothing terribly new.

Kaguya, in contrast to Madara, feels tacked on.  She was first mentioned 30 odd chapters ago.  For a character that's supposed to be the Final Villain, we've literally only known about her for less than 5% of the manga.  That's horrible writing.  Although I wouldn't call it acceptable (I don't even know what to make of that statement), one has to be honest and call it exactly as it is.

I would have much, MUCH rathered it be Hagaromo who had usurped Madara's position and was the Final Villain.  IMO that would have fit loads better than what Kishimoto is trying to do with Kaguya, as Hagaromo was foreshadowed all the way back when Pain was revealed.  Plus, all of Kaguya's backstory could have been given to Hagaromo and it would have explained why he was so strong, instead of his reason be just "Kaguya's son".  It would have also explained why the fuck Hagaromo made that tablet that explained, in GREAT detail, how to get the Rinnegan and Mugen Tsukiyomi. And that would have been a crazy twist that the person we all were led to believe was a benevolent God, is actually the one manipulating events.  

Either that, or negate Hagaromo's importance entirely, and foreshadow Kaguya from when Pain was revealed.  Have Kaguya be the benevolent God, and Hagaromo and Hamura take the position of Indra and Ashura (why the Hell do we have those two when we have Hag and Ham, I have no idea).  Have Naruto and Sasuke meet Kaguya when they were nearly dead.  And at this very point in time, reveal her to be the true mastermind behind everything!  Now that I'm thinking of it, that would have been a fucking epic twist!

As it is, a lot of people are just left with a "Whut...?" reaction and I can't even blame them.  Madara feels like Freeza while Kaguya is just Majin Buu


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

This is the same deal with the Tobi=Izuna theorists, they lash out at Kishi for not making Tobi as Izuna because they didn't want to believe that Madara was a "loser" who had to rely on another loser Uchiha (Obito) to enact his plans, they cannot accept that Madara "the genius" didn't Rinne Tensei Izuna before dying just after awakening the Rinnegan, sometimes you see things in a character that's not actually there, and fantasize about things a character does that he never did.


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## Kai (Jun 4, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> Everything can be explained _without _Kaguya. It's not like there were things in this plot that made no sense and couldn't be explained by other characters. Madara's life after VotE can obviously be explained by him, and it makes far more sense for him to explain it, after all. Extensive information on the RS' family is not and never was necessary. All that mattered were Indra and Ashura.


I'm aware there are other options Kishi could (should) have easily taken, but that's simply not what he had in mind. He left that shit blank on purpose until after Kaguya took center stage.

Again, I agree with you entirely on Kishi's treatment of Madara but not as absolutely on Kaguya's existence in the manga.



			
				PikaCheeka said:
			
		

> If anything, Kaguya has just added more plotholes and things that make no sense. It's ridiculous to claim "Kaguya was brought into the story to explain what happened to Madara after VotE" when Madara was right there and perfectly capable of telling his own story. That said, wasn't she sealed in the moon for most of his life?


Yeah, but I'm sure there are small details during Madara's life activities that he was unaware of. I'm just saying we don't know just _how_ involved Kaguya has been in past events.

I'm willing to bet that the time she ruled and this chapter are not the only times Kaguya has exerted her influence on the shinobi world, even if through other mediums. Chances are her influence is intertwined with Madara's life in some way as well.


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## Lammy (Jun 4, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> People are quick to compare it to the treatment Nagato/Orochimaru/Obito/Kabuto got, but they were all defeated by legitimate, developed, established characters




No! Sasuke and Naruto already defeated Madara! As soon as he ascended to Kaguya's 3rd eye powers he was already well made redundant. Madara just needs an epilogue with Hashirama now.


And I agree with everything celebrei has to say.


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## Eylandos (Jun 4, 2014)

So a guy who loves Madara, can't even give Kaguya a full chapter?

Damn it let Kishi flesh out the character a little and then see where it takes us.


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## Btbgfel (Jun 4, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> It's too late. A character as important as Kishi is trying to make Kaguya needs to have at least begun some characterization and development years and years ago. You can't drop this cardboard cutout onto the battlefield 6 chapters after she appeared as a presence in the 15-year-long manga, call her the main villain behind everything, and then make up her story and her personality as you go.
> 
> It doesn't matter what kind of characterization Kishi tries to give her now. He should have done this years ago.



Changed Kaguya to madara and I see no flaw in it
It's too late. A character as important as Kishi is trying to make Madara needs to have at least begun some characterization and development years and years ago. You can't drop this cardboard cutout onto the battlefield 6 chapters after he appeared as a presence in the 15-year-long manga, call him the main villain behind everything, and then make up her story and her personality as you go.

It doesn't matter what kind of characterization Kishi tries to give him now. He should have done this years ago.


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## lathia (Jun 4, 2014)

All I have to say is, welcome. In order to mutually understand someone else you have to be forced into a position where they once stood. From my fave > your fave, to my character's relevance > your character's relevance. It's not worth it. Read the manga for what it is and learn to draw the line before insulting others. We all have done it.


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

I think we can all agree that Madara could possibly still play a role in Kaguya's defeat, and acknowledges Sasuke as the continuer of the Uchiha Legacy,  but the days of the "madara mystique" like the TC reminisce on is now gone, the veil has been lifted, and Madara's strings have been laid bare for all to see.


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## MysteriousD (Jun 4, 2014)

This thread...


Ive enjoyed Naruto since I was a youngin (of sorts) 

My favorite character in Naruto is *NARUTO*. So, you know, shit is STILL GREAT! 


Madara came and went, _for me_, *no feelings attached*. He bullshitted his way into so many different powerups, played off pure plot/luck while an Edo Tensei, and then got a 2nd revive!

After that he steamrolled through people blind, absorbed Hashi Sage Mode from Base Hashi, used Sussano Blind, and beat all Bijuu with 1 eye.

After that he absorbs Juubi no problem and proceeds to utterly waste away his time tanking hits from Gai. Enjoying some violence.... AND OH BOY IT DIDNT START THERE.

We both know Madara was a combat/war junkie and just had to get high A BUNCH more times b4 he got serious!


About sums him up..

So now we say "Farewell" to Madara.
And me personally?

GOOD RIDDANCE 


The show must go on, Kaguyas here, *she's the biggest threat in the Narutoverse*, *SHE BLEW UP MADARA*, and now she's fighting our Homecoming King Himself!!!!



But she dont stand a chance. Because..



You know its never too late Pika... join church Naruto! We'll ease that hatred right outta ya and enjoying Naruto makes this manga shine like Gold.



*Im serious.*


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## Kai (Jun 4, 2014)

Furthermore, if Hagoromo was aware of Madara's existence and everything he did, why can't Kaguya? She's not as superfluous in the manga as people are throwing her under the bus to be.


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## Azula (Jun 4, 2014)

if kishi decided to move past obito, he might as we move all the way back to the starting point


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## Roman (Jun 4, 2014)

Eylandos said:


> So a guy who loves Madara, can't even give Kaguya a full chapter?
> 
> Damn it let Kishi flesh out the character a little and then see where it takes us.



That's the problem. Madara was revealed to us, hyped, his role as FV foreshadowed long before he made his effective entrance, AND his relevance to the main characters, Naruto and Sasuke, made clear when they fought at the end of part 1 (altho said relevance changed along with Kishi as the story progressed). That's how long we've been given hints of Madara's influence on the story. His character has been fleshed out long before we actually got to see him. Kaguya's had none of that, which some of us find problematic.

This chapter is virtually the prime example of everything that's wrong with writing a story as you go along as opposed to planning it out over the long run (which is what I hear Oda has done with One Piece).


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## DeK3iDE (Jun 4, 2014)

celebrei said:


> This is the same deal with the Tobi=Izuna theorists, they lash out at Kishi for not making Tobi as Izuna because they didn't want to believe that Madara was a "loser" who had to rely on another loser Uchiha (Obito) to enact his plans, they cannot accept that Madara "the genius" didn't Rinne Tensei Izuna before dying just after awakening the Rinnegan, sometimes you see things in a character that's not actually there, and fantasize about things a character does that he never did.


if you're going to turn this into flame war, just stay out of the thread. Seriously. Because all you do every week is continually make Sasuke out to be something he definitely isn't and make threads showing selective narratives/just plain ignorance when it comes to Madara.


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## Lammy (Jun 4, 2014)

Madara was never hyped as final villain- he's just a dude that was introduced at the end of part one (a long with Zetsu funnily enough). Sasuke (and therefore us) didn't even know who he was until a conversation with Kurama and with Itachi mid way of Part two.

The important conflict has always been with Naruto and Sasuke's choices. I'd much rather they skimped past all these "villains arc of the year", and yes Madara and Kaguya do feel fillery. Dammit just got to our main character's politics Naruto vs Sasuke!


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## Kathutet (Jun 4, 2014)

While I can definitely agree that Madara being fucked over hard by Black Zetsu, Kaguya's sudden appearance (even though she was introduced literally a few chapters ago - while we knew about Madara for so, so long now) and how it all happened is at the very least... Odd? Sudden? It was definitely one hell of a fucking twist. It came out of absolutely nowhere. She's only been namedropped since a few chapters ago.

I also can't help but like a part of it. He used dangerous methods to even be able to boot up his plan, and has fucked with things he shouldn't have fucked with... And now he's paid the price. For now. I'm also hoping he'll make a comeback, be it small or significant. I liked him as a villain. A lot.  I'm not going to write a long post saying why I kinda can't really hate the recent developments because it's pointless to go back and forth forever and ever, perpetually disagreeing. Let's just say I'm apparently still a little boy at heart and easy to please. 

And the silver lining to this (for now) is that everyone who didn't want him to answer to TnJ with "omfg I'm so sorry let's be fwends" got what they wanted. He never gave in for even a second nor did he consider it.


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

Big Bad Wolf said:


> if you're going to turn this into flame war, just stay out of the thread. Seriously. Because all you do every week is continually make Sasuke out to be something he definitely isn't and make threads showing selective narratives/just plain ignorance when it comes to Madara.



If we are honest with ourselves, you and I both know that Sasuke was meant to be the pinnacle of the Uchiha Legacy much like Nardo is destined to be the Alpha Senju, Both Sasuke and Nardo are the pinnacle embodiments of the powers and ideologies Kishimoto writes about.


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## Kai (Jun 4, 2014)

Kenneth said:


> And the silver lining to this (for now) is that everyone who didn't want him to answer to TnJ with "omfg I'm so sorry let's be fwends" got what they wanted. He never gave in for even a second nor did he consider it.


The thing is, if and when Madara returns (we all expect him to), the TNJ, camaraderie, and all that confetti is surely to follow. They can't be mutually exclusive if Madara's tenure as main villain is over.


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

Lammy said:


> Madara was never hyped as final villain- he's just a dude that was introduced at the end of part one (a long with Zetsu funnily enough).
> 
> The important conflict has always been with Naruto and Sasuke's choices. I'd much rather they skimped past all these "villains arc of the year", and yes Madara and Kaguya do feel fillery and they just got to our main character's politics



Indeed, Nardo and Sasuke is the center of this Manga's universe, the rest are merely additives.


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## DeK3iDE (Jun 4, 2014)

celebrei said:


> If we are honest with ourselves, you and I both know that Sasuke was meant to be the pinnacle of the Uchiha Legacy much like Nardo is destined to be the Alpha Senju, Both Sasuke and Nardo are the pinnacle embodiments of the powers and ideologies Kishimoto writes about.


see, this is exactly what i am talking about. By all accounts, Madara is still head and shoulders > Sasuke and here you are, true to form, making Sasuke out to be something he is not. And once again, doing it while completely disregarding everything about Madara other than the stuff you choose to remember. There is no Alpha Senju or Uchiha as both clans have been extinct for over 10yrs. Hence while your presumptions towards Kishmoto's intent in his writing is thoroughly irrelevant until he personally says so.


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## Golden Witch (Jun 4, 2014)

Eylandos said:


> So a guy who loves Madara, can't even give Kaguya a full chapter?
> 
> Damn it let Kishi flesh out the character a little and then see where it takes us.



That's the issue lad.
We're not just talking about some side character, an Arc villain or anything like that.
It's that we heard or saw nothing of Kaguya until recently.Nothing.Not a single word, not a single mention or referral, nothing.Zilch.Nada.
It took *15 years* for the Main Antagonist/Final Villain (unless something changes AGAIN) to be first shown and mentioned.After 15 years, nearing the end.
He had over a decade worth of time to shape the Final Villain of the story, but choses to introduce someone completely new instead.
Of course he can flesh her out now, but that doesn't excuse that he had years and years of time to do so before, yet he didn't and we're left with this mess.
It's sloppy Author work.Straight up sloppy.
And this coming from a Kaguya fanboy.


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

From the looks of things,  others are not willing to give Kishi a chance to flesh out Kaguya's character and backstory, they want to nip the bud before it blooms.


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## Tayimus (Jun 4, 2014)

Kai said:


> Furthermore, if Hagoromo was aware of Madara's existence and everything he did, why can't Kaguya? She's not as superfluous in the manga as people are throwing her under the bus to be.



This has been annoying me ever since I saw Kaguya's face in the sky.  If Hagaromo was aware of Madara.  Aware of Indra and Ashura. How the Hell was he not aware of Kaguya, the supposed "Ultimate Evil"?  How is it that he completely missed Madara being manipulated by her?  How could he not sense her Will inside Zetsu, inside MADARA?!



celebrei said:


> From the looks of things,  others are not willing to give Kishi a chance to flesh out Kaguya's character and backstory, they want to nip the bud before it blooms.



It's entirely too late to be fleshing out her character and backstory.  Mind you, I waited til this chapter to start questioning this.  I thought we'd get some answers but no, apparently not.  Anyway, you don't wait til the last minutes to introduce the Final Villain. It has to be forshadowed, and the 30 chapters since Kaguya's first mention does not equal a good foreshadowing.


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## gabzilla (Jun 4, 2014)

Kaguya's a badly done plot device, that cannot be denied, even if you saw it coming. It was sloppy.

Like her design and potential all you want, enjoy how Madara got trolled if you hated him so much, but let's not pretend Kishimoto didn't pull this out of his ass. Come one now.


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## Golden Witch (Jun 4, 2014)

gabzilla said:


> Kaguya's a badly done plot device, that cannot be denied, even if you saw it coming. It was sloppy.
> 
> Like her design and potential all you want, enjoy how Madara got trolled if you hated him so much, but let's not pretend Kishimoto didn't pull this out of his ass. Come one now.




This.

Kaguya is just a tool to defeat Madara cause he didn't know how else, thus fucking up the story for the sake of getting rid of him.
That's all there is to it.
It's what happens when an Author doesn't plan his story out properly.This shit occurs.


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## Skull007 (Jun 4, 2014)

Golden Witch said:


> That's the issue lad.
> We're not just talking about some side character, an Arc villain or anything like that.
> It's that we heard or saw nothing of Kaguya until recently.
> It took *15 years* for the Main Antagonist/Final Villain (unless something changes AGAIN) to be first shown and mentioned.After 15 years, nearing the end.
> ...




It will

And, to be honest, questioning some features of this manga from the very beginning would've led to certain theories even from the start.

Chakra? tailed beasts made of massive amounts of chakra and full of hatred? dojutsus like the sharingan, which suspiciously have the ability to control these beasts? why are they there in the first place?...

Remember when they told us the byakugan was an advanced form of the sharingan? well until a couple of months ago we were all laughing... now it doesn't seem to be that funny

Hashirama's mokuton, those zetsus, the gedo mazo (the juubi's shell); were directly influenced by the rinnegan. The juubi's ability to absorb chakra (mokuton, anyone?) and many other things that are strictly related. 

The story has always been there, but it was in separate pieces that, with just a bit of thought, could be easily related. Yes, we didn't know about the masterminds of characters behind all of this, especially kaguya... but come on, if kishi had shown us her from chapter one, we would've spent 15 years believing it was her all along


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## Stelios (Jun 4, 2014)

Aazadan said:


> That might be the target age group but it doesn't mean that's the only age group.  Kishi adds a lot of depth to Naruto that 10-18 year olds aren't going to grasp such as the depth of mental illnesses he gives his characters and the general state of their world.
> 
> The Kaguya stuff makes no sense right now, everything she's done and represents is something Madara could have done.  Things are usually done for a reason though so... we'll see.




Well I didn't say that this is the only age group that is following this manga. However someone at the age radius of Peeka's and mine will find it hard to be excited by the way the story is evolving.


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## DeK3iDE (Jun 4, 2014)

celebrei said:


> From the looks of things,  others are not willing to give Kishi a chance to flesh out Kaguya's character and backstory, they want to nip the bud before it blooms.


what else did you expect, considering there was next to nothing about her being shown or mentioned prior to 646 and Kishimoto had no idea that he was going to start plugging new characters into the story even then? It's not like her "Zetsu army" endgame made her look any better


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## Lammy (Jun 4, 2014)

Tayimus said:


> This has been annoying me ever since I saw Kaguya's face in the sky.  If Hagaromo was aware of Madara.  Aware of Indra and Ashura. How the Hell was he not aware of Kaguya, the supposed "Ultimate Evil"?  How is it that he completely missed Madara being manipulated by her?  How could he not sense her Will inside Zetsu, inside MADARA?!




If it's any consolation,  he was half correct. Madara did attain the terrible powers of his mother... and pretty much just turned into her.

Madara and Hagaromo can't tell us anything new now. It's all up to Kaguya and the second son 

And yes I care more about this new development than Madara's... which was the same as Tobito's... which was repeating the same info we got 3 years ago in  fan service war of egos and wish fulfillments


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## dungsi27 (Jun 4, 2014)

Agree. The way Madara was ousted was just silly and makes no sense.

And Kaguya, apart from her power level, is a very very bad final villain, with no back story whatsoever.

There are twists that makes you go "awwww" and admire the cleverness of the writer, then there are those that make you want to scream "wtf is this sh*t?"


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## Bonney (Jun 4, 2014)

The plot fell to shit long long ago, and if you are into much better writing standards you will cringe at the plots a lot. Pretty indifferent to it all, the series many once knew is dead, interesting that many will defend it against any comment. Always have felt that many of the theories on his of yesteryear were much better than what we ever got in the end, as if many overestimated Kishi and what he would be able to do.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 4, 2014)

We knew for a while Madara would be trolled. We didn't know how, but we knew it would happen.

Pain was trolled by Obito. Obito was trolled by Madara. Now Madara was trolled by Kayuga.

Just like with Obito and Madara, it makes no sense *now*. But after a few flashback chapters, it will. There's a reason a large chunk of Obito, Nagato and Madara's lives were left untouched. I'd even hazard a guess and say it was plausibly Kayuga who prevented Madara from dying in the VotE.


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## crystalblade13 (Jun 4, 2014)

so... everyone just gonna ignore the person standing on the cliff who saved madara?

cause i bet it will be revealed to have been black zetsu, who in turn tells madara he is his will manifested. madara, being egotistical as fuck, would believe him and be even more assured the he is "the chosen one". he likely didnt black create zetsu when he attached him to white zetsu. black zetsu could have just been inside of madara at that point.


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## Gabe (Jun 4, 2014)

He was defeated in a terrible way, but villains change and in this manga there is always a puppet master behind everyone. As soon as I saw something telling madara to absorb the tree I knew his time was about to end. It was obvious her. There was even a panel of something with 3 eyes before madara even awaken his. Then when the plan succeeded there was a panel of her over the world.I am also sure kishi will develop her. Kishi is predictable sometimes. I would not be surprise if there is a bigger treat after her. Also you can't be attached to a character too much something I and many have learned the hard way because kishi will troll, humiliate them eventually. Not good to take this story too serious.


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## Golden Witch (Jun 4, 2014)

Skull007 said:


> It will
> 
> And, to be honest, questioning some features of this manga from the very beginning would've led to certain theories even from the start.
> 
> ...



You take the 15 parts too literal.No one says Kaguya should have appeared in chapter 1.
And no one disagrees with all that stuff.
It's about the character Kaguya itself that he had so long time to show, yet only decided to show her at the very end after developing someone else for FV, yet screw all that development to FV over simply because he has no idea how to get rid of him.
At least Kishi could have added ages ago some hint to *her existence *instead of introducing her out of the blue.


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## crystalblade13 (Jun 4, 2014)

dungsi27 said:


> Agree. The way Madara was ousted was just silly and makes no sense.
> 
> And Kaguya, apart from her power level, is a very very bad final villain, with no back story whatsoever.



dude... pain didnt have a backstory when he was first introduced either. give it time. we already have some info on her.


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## BlueDemon (Jun 4, 2014)

Pretty much only read the bold and yeah, I agree. Madara should have been the final villain.

This somehow remind me of the

*Spoiler*: _Mass Effect 3 Ending spoiler_ 



star brat at the end of ME3 




Anyway, I'm really curious to see how she's going to go down.


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## Deleted member 175252 (Jun 4, 2014)

This manga has been horrid to read for a while now, I just carry on because i've been reading for so long


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## Euraj (Jun 4, 2014)

A long time ago, one of the main complaints about the villains of the manga was that they were too close to the main characters, which opened up too many chances for them being defeated by emotions and circumstances rather than power. The way Madara exited was pretty stupid (and makes me doubt Kishi is trying to stretch the story like some say), but Kaguya, I think, is the answer to that complaint. No jibber jabber, no convenient handicaps, just brutal fighting. I do still believe Pain, Tobi and Madara should have just been one villain, but that's irrelevant. 

As for the "inconsistencies," you'll just have to exercise some patience. You know plenty of stuff about Pain, Tobi, Itachi, and Madara made zero sense for a long time.


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## Keishin (Jun 4, 2014)

celebrei said:


> Kaguya is the saving grace of this Manga that Madara and Obito dragged to boredom.



Pretty much. Who knows, maybe Kishi can actually make this work and actually give different kind of flashbacks and interesting characters.


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## Addy (Jun 4, 2014)

Punished Pathos said:


> lol you're just mad that Madara died without giving Hashirama a farewell kiss



no,i do remember her saying this many months ago about kaguya.


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## Haruka Katana (Jun 4, 2014)

I am no Madara fan, nor do i care about him other than being somewhat amazed. But Kaguya? It was a terrible twist and seeing her out this chapter doesn't sit right to me. I couldn't see her as a villain, just some um, final boss Naruto and co has to defeat. Madara was a "final boss" to me too, but eh, I rather he stayed the final boss than this.

Well since you talked about final fantasy I'm reminded of FFIX because that shit was out of nowhere either. Maybe that team7 cover was saying something.

I don't get how the fuck Kishi doesn't know how to "end" Madara, there are many ways, it doesn't have to be an ass pull. Yeah I think it was an asspull too, as indifferent I am now to the manga. Naruto is pretty much not the same manga to me since the war arc, I knew it would go for the worst, and I wasn't wrong.

This is coming from a Naruto fan, am still a fan, just that I turned into a don't give a shit anymore kind of fan


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## Za Fuuru (Jun 4, 2014)

This Kaguya complaining is like discovering that life on Earth came from another galaxy and some genius says "that's impossible, it's a plot hole. What about Adam and Eve?". LOL, very funny guys.


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## AceBizzle (Jun 4, 2014)

Cool story bro


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## mayumi (Jun 4, 2014)

The problem is OP believing in anything kishimoto says in interviews. Like all the time he has trolled and given sarcastic answers, you would think he didn't mean it when he said he made madara so strong. You choose to believe him. Others did not.

Kishimoto in part 1 wanted Oro to be the villan but he wasn't popular enough so we got a new villan. Orochimaru fans still like him even though he is about to become white zetsu. Stuff happens, all of it is under kishimots's whims.


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## Moeka (Jun 4, 2014)

I really enjoyed reading your essay, and I feel sad knowing that you are kinda disappointed.
If I want to be honest with myself, I don't really follow the manga to the heart like you, so whatever happens wouldn't really disappoint me, but I understand how you feel, it happened to me with some other series.


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## Jeαnne (Jun 4, 2014)

i doubt Madara is done yet, to be honest. Its like when we expected the Hokages to be done for too.

i expect him to come back through his cut bottom, free Hashirama, and join the hokages and the others to fight. Kishi seems to be setting up his redemption, and it needs to be through a team up with Hashirama.

He might also strip him from his "added" powers, to make it work(bringing his original character design back and all), thats why Kishi destroyed this current "piece" of him.

There is too much bad stuff pending between him and the Senju bros, Kishi might fix this with them finally teaming up. 

regardless, this is bad writing. Kishi didnt introduce Kaguya early enough.


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## Bahamut Slayer (Jun 4, 2014)

I hate Madara but even I understand that this whole Kaguya thing is just bad writing. Pain was the puppet of Obito who was the puppet of Madara who was the puppet of Kaguya. The thing is that we actually had a solid foundation of these characters, their past, built over the chapters. Kaguya's appearance or her story itself is weak. That's just it. We can complain all we want, but in the end we're the ones reading it and a lot simply keep on reading it to the end only because it's been going on for some long that we'll finish it. It can get shittier and shittier but people would keep reading. 

Well at least we simply read this online. For free, I mean I'd feel ripped off if I paid and watched a horrible movie. They got my money whether I hated or loved it. Kinda like the Transformers movies I guess. People will pay and watch it, see the explosions and absurdity of it. But at the end of the day, they managed to make people come, pay, and watch the movie even if some will complain there's so many plot holes, horrible acting and writing.


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## Chaelius (Jun 4, 2014)

He should have put Kaguya on the Uchiha tablet back in part 1, have characters talk about a mythical godess in abstract terms and then give more concrete information and lore as her awakening draws closer if he wanted to use her as a big villain, this is just a bunch of rushed out of nowhere bullshit, reminds me of FF IV, moon people and all.


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## Miyoshi (Jun 4, 2014)

*Didn't read the entire essay but I agree. Even though you're a fan @Pika what you speak on isn't false. Everything is coming from way left field at this point. With no attachment to the characters how can we identify with or have any true connection to the character in order to make the series of events have more of an impact? 

Kishi has officially began the new series, the introduction of all of these ancestors was the start of it. The chapters and arcs differ so much because we're are now reading chapters from a mangaka who has exhausted his imagination in this particular series as far as progressing the story along. 

Just give Naruto some damn justice Kishi, make him look capable dammit. He's uber powerful still looking like Mr. Numb nuts!  *


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## -JT- (Jun 4, 2014)

I personally found Kaguya's revival to be not too bothersome, but I think this is because I don't really have any emotional attachment to the plot any more. I still enjoy the series, but every twist and turn, whether the fandom deems it good or bad, has very little effect on me now.

Yes, I still love my favourite characters. I am happy when they appear and I get extremely annoyed when they are terribly handled (I still can't quite stomach Neji's death), so in that regard I sympathise with you, Pika.

But for me, a manga is not a novel. For whatever reason, be it an inability to see every tiny detail in each panel, or the episodic release of a new chapter each week, I just cannot in general feel emotionally attached to the Naruto world and plot at large in the same way I can when I read a book.

It doesn't help that Kishimoto is generally pretty shocking at handling foreshadowing any way. He either makes things ridiculously obvious so that it is not actually a twist, or barely shows anything (and if he does, it's clear that the 'signs' were shoe horned in and made to fit for convenience) so that things seem like ass pulls.


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## Stan Lee (Jun 4, 2014)

Uh, didn't Kishi already say that Madara wasn't the final conflict but the Juubi/God Tree and Sasuke? Why is this a surprise? 



Freedan said:


> That's the problem. Madara was revealed to us, hyped, his role as FV foreshadowed long before he made his effective entrance, AND his relevance to the main characters, Naruto and Sasuke, made clear when they fought at the end of part 1 (altho said relevance changed along with Kishi as the story progressed). That's how long we've been given hints of Madara's influence on the story. His character has been fleshed out long before we actually got to see him. Kaguya's had none of that, which some of us find problematic.
> 
> This chapter is virtually the prime example of everything that's wrong with writing a story as you go along as opposed to planning it out over the long run (which is what I hear Oda has done with One Piece).



If Kaguya is the juubi(which is most likely the case) then her character is just as relevant and has as much influence as her son.


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## shintebukuro (Jun 4, 2014)

Give it a chance, Pika. 

The biggest culprit here is the belief that you can deduce with logic everything that Kishi is going to write before he does it. After he's thrown you for numerous loops, you need to accept that you cannot possibly anticipate where he's headed next, right?

Madara is not done, and this could all end up being awesome for him. We don't know.


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## SageFlash (Jun 4, 2014)

I just don't understand why people didn't see this coming. 


This is written for 12 year old children yet you people expect sole grand literary masterpiece. It won't be. It's a simple story, and whether you like it or not, it's gonna be told simply and have a simple ending. Not to mention Madara himself is the very definition of bland and generic and was literally Obito v2. At least Kaguya brings something new to the table. 

And again, whether some of you want to see it or not, Sasuke will be the Final Villain. Denial is strong on this forum.


----------



## Pyre's Plight (Jun 4, 2014)

In the past, there were a lot of decisions the fans complained about on the grounds that they were as spills or just didn't make any sense, in truth, many of these decisions were foreshadowed. However, even the decisions made in the past can arguably be called awful or bad from an objective stand point. For example, what was with the way Sasuke acted right after Itachi's eyes were implanted into him? What hint was there to tell us that Madara was directly controlling Rin when she jumped in the way of Kakashi's Chidori? When Naruto converted Nagato and Obito, how exactly were their conversions supposed to come across as believable? In Nagato'b case, he didn't even dwell on what Naruto said for a while. He just suddenly changed his mind and sacrificed his life for him and the village.

Why did Sai think that guilt tripping Sakura about Naruto's love for her was a good idea? Why did Sakura then pretend that Naruto didn't actually care about Sasuke himself and was only trying to bring him back to konoha because of the promise he made to her so long ago.

I could honestly go on about past inconsistencies. Complaining about all of this stuff in the past could easily be perceived as someone just complaining about the manga's direction. And to extent, it would be. You could even argue that Naruto's speech at converted Obito wasn't creepy or manipulative and you'd probably have a point. But this? Oh man, I had been waiting for something this awful to happen for a long time now. Something so bad that nobody in the fanbase would be able to defend it. Now that it has actually happened, I'm not sure why I ever wanted it. People still enjoy Naruto as a great story and think that the last chapter was pretty cool. That's fine. Although I think it sucks, who I am to say what you should and shouldn't enjoy? In the end, I'm only reading something I used to like in order to see how it ends and if I'll enjoy it again.

What you said in your first post was by no means wrong. But I believe you should have expected the story to take such a terrible turn given how Kishimoto has handled part 2 lately. It's unfortunate that the manga has gone this way after all this time, but really. What can one do about it?


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## Weapon (Jun 4, 2014)

I don't like Kaguya as a character personally, but what happened with Madara isn't bad writing and no one can evident an argument based on Kaguya-hime taking Madara's spot because we don't even know the full extent yet. 

Turrin just pretty much straight up schooled the original "complaint". A majority of it was an invalid argument which is why I skipped most of it since it was just re-wording the same argument about how Madara is better by the end of it. 

OP was not a general direction / discussion topic about the series on a neutral perspective as stated but instead a rant only fueled by recent events within the series despite claiming not to be? This is just a classic example of jumping gun without waiting for more content on the matter but just using one sided / obvious arguments to overrun an unexplored topic.

Obito fans had more reason to criticize the story-telling and writing but they're not as heavily involved as these extremists that have popped up to whinge not just on NF but all over the place. The only reason why people try to validate this recent event is because Madara is a popular character, that's it. 

Where were all the people when Kabuto got ass pulled? Technically going off your logic, he's been in the series longer and he's been important with a lot of the plot elements and the characters in the series. He's done and achieved just as much as Madara on a different scale. Where was his defense?

This sort of discussion is only valid and isn't an empty argument when everything is actually done and set in stone, which it isn't. Then again anyone can do this shit anytime and try to claim this and that, but only if you're impatient. 

The horrible and empty Kaguya / Madara comparison aside, I could go into so much detail even out of the series but there's no point because you know why? _It's the saddest part about this whole thing really_; Madara isn't even done yet and this will all be meaningless in the chapters to come.


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## Punished Pathos (Jun 4, 2014)

No more of this Hashirama x Madara crap. I mean really...
I doubt Madara is done.


Did you forget that Madara was the one that introduced Kaguya into the story?

Did you forget that Kaguya is the reason as to the Juubi being pissed off since the former was the one to eat the fruit and Hagoromo being the one to have taught everyone how to use Chakra which originated from the Juubi AKA Shinju tree?!
Kaguya is a perfect fit in the story, you all just fucking suck at reading the damn manga which is aimed at kids... 


Anyone who disagrees with Kaguya belonging in the story should reread this shit right here.


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## Nuuskis (Jun 4, 2014)

It's laughable that some people actually compare this to Pain's/Nagato's or Tobi's introduction. The manga is almost finished guys, we are at the final battle of this war and after this, there will be Naruto vs. Sasuke which will conclude the series. You can't just pull out a villain from air and replace the main antagonist with her at this point of story.  Kishi should have introduced Kaguya a long time ago for this to be acceptable.

Introducing Pain as Akatsuki leader or Tobi being the man behind Pain was completely different situation, where we just learned to know which characters will be the main villains.

Kishi went through a lot of chapters to make Madara gain his full might, and after finally becoming Juubi's Jinchuuriki and recovering both Rinnegans, one would except that he would now start his final battle against Naruto & Sasuke. But instead this happens.


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## Punished Pathos (Jun 4, 2014)

Kaguya's actions, which was recorded on the TABLET.
Motivated Madara.... 



Lol some of you claim to be Madara fans..
Don't kid yourselves


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## Stan Lee (Jun 4, 2014)

Sauron said:


> It's laughable that some people actually compare this to Pain's/Nagato's or Tobi's introduction. The manga is almost finished guys, we are at the final battle of this war and after this, there will be Naruto vs. Sasuke which will conclude the series. You can't just pull out a villain from air and replace the main antagonist with her at this point of story.  Kishi should have introduced Kaguya a long time ago for this to be acceptable.
> 
> Introducing Pain as Akatsuki leader or Tobi being the man behind Pain was completely different situation, where we just learned to know which characters will be the main villains.
> 
> Kishi went through a lot of chapters to make Madara gain his full might, and after finally becoming Juubi's Jinchuuriki and recovering both Rinnegans, one would except that he would now start his final battle against Naruto & Sasuke. But instead this happens.



The war is already over dude. 8 vs 1 is not a war.:rofl

And Kaguya is the juubi which was mentioned hundreds of chapters ago. You still haven't figured that out?


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## Suigetsu (Jun 4, 2014)

Madara was an ok character but not for a FV. After Obito's demise they should had gotten rid of Maddy quickly in order to prevent all this batshit clusterfuck. Which imo it's not very good cause it's just dragging.


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## Sora (Jun 4, 2014)

I agree with OP
this isn't a fan war thing
some people can't help but show their bias and they're actually defending thisplot twist
it doesn't matter if you hate Madara or not this really just came out of nowhere
idc if madara was trolled or if he was a pawn
Kishi could have hinted it *much *earlier that Kaguya was the one in charge the whole time
to me it feels like Kishi made Kaguya just to get rid of Madara


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

Kai said:


> Furthermore, if Hagoromo was aware of Madara's existence and everything he did, why can't Kaguya? She's not as superfluous in the manga as people are throwing her under the bus to be.



Exactly, I fail to see why others can't accept this


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## Stan Lee (Jun 4, 2014)

Sora said:


> I agree with OP
> this isn't a fan war thing
> some people can't help but show their bias and they're actually defending thisplot twist
> it doesn't matter if you hate Madara or not this really just came out of nowhere
> ...




Hashi did noticed something after his fight with Madara.


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## Revolution (Jun 4, 2014)

One of your complaints can be shared with Madara - one evil to control them all.


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

Big Bad Wolf said:


> what else did you expect, considering there was next to nothing about her being shown or mentioned prior to 646 and Kishimoto had no idea that he was going to start plugging new characters into the story even then? It's not like her "Zetsu army" endgame made her look any better



This is the same false argument that Tobi theorists rant that Kishi just suddenly woke up one day and decided Tobi to be Obito, no it was planned from the start of Shippuden


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## Tony Lou (Jun 4, 2014)

> It made sense, and was foreseeable as far back as when Obito first claimed to be him.



I would add Jiraiya's conversation with the scroll toad.

Scroll toad: *laughs* That's impossible, Madara is long dead.

Jiraiya: I know, it's just a bad feeling that never goes away.

This was a little before his fight with Pain.


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

You could redirect the OP's essay against Madara himself, remember years ago when everyone thought Pein was the big baddy, then suddenly goofy Tobi revealed himself as "Madara" running Akatsuki from the shadows, everyone then was calling it an asspull 'coz there was no foreshadowing that Deidara's idiot sidekick was actually the head honcho, but Madara fans denied this and said it was good writing and plot twist, hypocrisy


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## Tony Lou (Jun 4, 2014)

I never thought Pain was a potential main baddy.

It was clear to me that his sole purpose was fueling Naruto's character development.

Obito... I considered it, of course. But the fact that Madara still was confident kept me from fully embracing the idea. I couldn't help but think "What if..."



> It made sense, and was foreseeable as far back as when Obito first claimed to be him.



I would add Jiraiya's conversation with the scroll toad.

Scroll toad: *laughs* That's impossible, Madara is long dead.

Jiraiya: I know, it's just a bad feeling that never goes away.

This was a little before his fight with Pain.


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## santanico (Jun 4, 2014)

I feel ya, you're not the only one who has felt that their fave character got tossed over. Just speaking generally here.


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## fallot (Jun 4, 2014)

In threads like these there are always a couple of smart alecks who try to frame this as a *plot continuity* problem. There isn't one. Kaguya can be explained. Kaguya can be "fleshed out". Kaguya doesn't contradict anything already known and if it does the writer can always shift some things around later to fit her in. The problem is the fitting in the first place.

Imagine you're 5-6 years old and your grandfather is sitting by your bedside telling you a story. He tells you a pretty dope story about this prince who travels the world searching for, oh lets say a special flower, which he needs to claim his lady love. You are entranced by his exploits and the story goes on for almost two hours. Just at the two hour mark though, grandpa begins to get a little tired and annoyed, so at a certain point SATAN HIMSELF appears, battles the prince who wins, the end. Now if you weren't very pleased about this development how would you feel about some nerd shouting you down with *it fits the plot, maybe he'll explain it later*.


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## Tony Lou (Jun 4, 2014)

Juubi = Kaguya is an absurd idea, to be sure.

It's like reversing the order in who came first, God or Adam and Eve.


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## NO (Jun 4, 2014)

Posting a reply out of respect for the effort taken in vocalizing some of my concerns.


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## takL (Jun 4, 2014)

well there was the kaguya clan. mums are scary and everyone has a mother, even hagoromo.
i personally am enjoying how it turns out. 
 since hashs flashback i havent seen maddy as a devil. i dont think kaguya is either.
maddy couldve been the last boss if not for that unnecessary bullying to dying obito. 

maddy will come back as to kill kaguya with good guys.
if so finally maddy is fighting alongside hash.


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## Klue (Jun 4, 2014)

celebrei said:


> Madara's insertion into the story had been more detrimental to the overall cohesion of the plot. He was simply introduced to "wow" kids with his flashy jutsus and parlor tricks, but his existence in this war was completely superfluous and unnecessary.



Naruto and Sasuke are the only two characters aware of who she is, and they found out less than 10 chapters ago.

Stop.



celebrei said:


> Like I said, the OP's reasoning is merely personal bias and subjective opinion, you can write this essay by replacing Madara with either Pain or Tobi and substitute Kaguya with "Madara" and it will still mean the same thing : personal opinion.



Even if that's true, how are you any different?


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## Nuuskis (Jun 4, 2014)

Zero Requiem said:


> And Kaguya is the juubi which was mentioned hundreds of chapters ago. You still haven't figured that out?



Could you provide me a link to that chapter? I only remember that she ate the fruit from the tree, which caused the tree to become the Juubi which Rikudou Sage then sealed inside himself.


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## Trojan (Jun 4, 2014)

celebrei said:


> Exactly, I fail to see why others can't accept this



The problem is they are that happened to madara, when kishi gave the same shitty excuses for madara to defeat other characters as well. 

EMS Sasuke was defeated by a freaking sword without any kind of battle whatsoever!
He survived the Bijuu's attack with his eyes-less susanoo, and defeated them in no time
...etc

now he just drank from the same cup.


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## santanico (Jun 4, 2014)

I don't think kaguya was pulled out of nowhere, I think she was planned all along.


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

starr said:


> I don't think kaguya was pulled out of nowhere, I think she was planned all along.



Of course she was, like how Obito was planned as Tobi all along, others simply use ad hominem attacks on Kishi and says he just woke up one day and decided these things.


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## Deleted member 206107 (Jun 4, 2014)

ch1p said:


> I agree with pika and jacamo.



Same here.


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## takL (Jun 4, 2014)

do u hate give up on maddy cos he isnt the final villain?


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## Roman (Jun 4, 2014)

starr said:


> I don't think kaguya was pulled out of nowhere, I think she was planned all along.



To which I say this:



Klue said:


> Naruto and Sasuke are the only two characters aware of who she is, and they found out less than 10 chapters ago.



Kishi could've given us a hint if he had this planned since 1999.


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## ChickenPotPie (Jun 4, 2014)

starr said:


> I don't think kaguya was pulled out of nowhere, I think she was planned all along.



If that were true, there wouldn't be the naming conflict with Kimimaro's unrelated clan.


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## NO (Jun 4, 2014)

celebrei said:


> Of course she was,* like how Obito was planned as Tobi all along*, others simply use ad hominem attacks on Kishi and says he just woke up one day and decided these things.


LOL...let's not be sardonic in attempt to sound smart about something you're completely wrong about. Tobito was planned; face it. Kakashi Gaiden happened right before part 2.


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## tkpirate (Jun 4, 2014)

it's just normal shit level writting from Kishi.

even if he wanted Kaguya to be the final villain,he should have had another arc,and made Kaguya final villain there.

Madara should have been the final villain of this arc.


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## ChickenPotPie (Jun 4, 2014)

To play devil's advocate, is coming out of nowhere necessarily a bad thing?  As opposed to Madara and Tobito, which pretty much anyone with a brain saw coming many chapters ahead of their reveal?


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## Deleted member 45015 (Jun 4, 2014)

​
I agree with *PikaCheeka*. Even if you truly despise Madara in no way, shape or form is what we've witnessed good writing. 



It's sad, but this is basically the straw that broke the camels back for me personally as any enjoyment I once derived from this series is _dead_. 

I'm just so, so grateful I didn't pay for this series because after all the Volumes one would have to buy to lead up to this point...to get here...I'd feel sick and demand my money back. 

It truly does boggle my mind that some people are excited at the prospect of a cardboard cut-out villain.


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## BlazingInferno (Jun 4, 2014)

TRN said:


> Please don't go Pika  But kishimoto fuck up bad



Pffft, they always come back. That's why this section is full of threads every week, like they're forced to read the manga when they can just quit if they don't like it. But nobody here quits, they "quit" then come back here a week later.

I like the manga, but I have to say, I'm not liking the direction Kishi is heading the manga. I don't like the idea of Madara left undefeated and offed by a character like BZ. Nor the possibilities of there being galactic threats.


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## Nagato Sennin (Jun 4, 2014)

Madara was bringing this whole manga downhill, it's finally about to be back on the upswing


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## Chaelius (Jun 4, 2014)

Nagato Sennin said:


> Madara was bringing this whole manga downhill, it's finally about to be back on the upswing



By a character with the same plan and motivation but none of the established background?


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## Skull007 (Jun 4, 2014)

Golden Witch said:


> At least Kishi could have added ages ago some hint to *her existence *instead of introducing her out of the blue.



Yes, that's true

But if you think about it, it's kinda interesting how we saw the famous rikudo sennin being the mastermind or the creator behind everything for years, only to know he's just another pawn in a bigger scheme

If all, I'd criticize the existence of that damn fruit that actually DID come out of nowhere, but still, it doesn't bring any contradictions, it's just more information hidden from us through all these years

And I doubt kaguya's the FV; as you said, she came out of the blue and there's little to no development of her character

My bet is still on orochimaru, even though people beat me up on the streets when I say it. The guy has too much knowledge about this stuff and I doubt it's a coincidence


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## ChickenPotPie (Jun 4, 2014)

Chaelius said:


> By a character with the same plan and motivation but none of the established background?



Are you talking about replacing Madara with Kaguya?

...Or Obito being replaced by Madara?


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## takL (Jun 4, 2014)

ChickenPotPie said:


> To play devil's advocate, is coming out of nowhere necessarily a bad thing?



nope.

and i wouldt call a story bad wrthing till everything is told and done.


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## Chaelius (Jun 4, 2014)

ChickenPotPie said:


> Are you talking about replacing Madara with Kaguya?
> 
> ...Or Obito being replaced by Madara?



Is one supposed to be better than the other? They were both terrible, with Obito at least there was the cushioning of years of backstory with Madara, Kaguya was introduced this year.

This villain hot potato game has been the shit cherry on the shit cake that was the war, Randy.


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## king81992 (Jun 4, 2014)

Kaguya was not an asspull but I feel Kishi revealed her too early.


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## takL (Jun 4, 2014)

king81992 said:


> Kaguya was not an asspull but I feel Kishi revealed her too early.



yeah i wanted to see her coming out of maddys forehead slit.


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## shintebukuro (Jun 4, 2014)

ChickenPotPie said:


> If that were true, there wouldn't be the naming conflict with Kimimaro's unrelated clan.



...Why would Kishimoto, with all the thousands of names in Japanese culture, accidentally pick one that would cause conflict somehow?

He obviously picked the specific name of Kimimaro's clan for a _reason_.



			
				CM Pope said:
			
		

> I agree with PikaCheeka. Even if you truly despise Madara in no way, shape or form is what we've witnessed good writing.
> 
> I refer to what I said sometime last week.
> 
> ...



What is currently occurring villain-wise in the manga is in its infancy and cannot possibly be judged as good or bad writing just yet.

You are _guessing_ how things will play out, and then judging the writing of the current chapter based on your own guesses for the future. But if you couldn't guess this would all occur in the first place, then what value do your guesses even have?


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## Lelouch71 (Jun 4, 2014)

The manga went to hell after Pain/Nagato died for me. Madara was a crappy and very boring villain. There was nothing interesting about him. He was just some bland delusional megalomaniac. Nagato and even Obito had better writing than him. In fact, I still think the manga should had stuck with Nagato as the mastermind. Kaguya if nothing else bring something new to the table.


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## Kai (Jun 4, 2014)

Didn't Kishimoto state in an interview that he's not good at writing his manga being read chapter by chapter but being read as an entire volume?

Does anyone have the source on that?


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## Starwind75043 (Jun 4, 2014)

Incoming 20 chapters of exposition on kaguya and were she comes from. Not invested in madra but i get your point and its fair one.  Maybe this is kishi attempt  to present a ultimate evil on  a global scale(yeah yeah i know he had that with orochimaru)


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## ChickenPotPie (Jun 4, 2014)

shintebukuro said:


> ...Why would Kishimoto, with all the thousands of names in Japanese culture, accidentally pick one that would cause conflict somehow?
> 
> He obviously picked the specific name of Kimimaro's clan for a _reason_.



My ass.  This is the same Kishimoto that had to change the 3rd Hokage's first name to his last name so he could retcanon Asuma as his son.


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## Arya Stark (Jun 4, 2014)

I can see her being a wild card to be held when Rikodou was first introduced. I can't see a way to plan Rikodou's origin without Kaguya.


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

Nagato Sennin said:


> Madara was bringing this whole manga downhill, it's finally about to be back on the upswing



^ Exactly this, Kaguya's introduction has revitalized the Manga.


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## Clairehime (Jun 4, 2014)

I hated the personality of Madara from the first moment. It was ridiculous. A naturally discredited character. For me it was even more obvious when Obito began to decline.

Even with his aborted quality, Obito still seemed the ultimate villain. So Kishimoto needed to eliminate Obito. After all, Madara had to be respected. However didn't work. Madara didn't work. Madara was more of a Clueless's villain, than to battle's villain. Simply I couldn't take him seriously.

Then Orochimaru reemerges, and Kaguya appears. It was obvious, Kishimoto try to fix the massive error but just committing another mistake: Madara performs the Tsukuyomi, and demoralizes Orochimaru. Probably a fanservice, but eliminated the last competition.

There was more to do, Madara was the final boss. Like it or not, that was the end. Only remained conformation. I had waited a decade to see Alicia Silverstone as the ultimate villain. And when I finally had a joy (manga end), out of nowhere, Kaguya reemerges. In a completely random moment, and now with a dubious objective. And worst: It leaves a feeling that we will not see the final ever.

For me, Madara was the most boring villain ever created by Kishimoto. But he lost the time to make him fall, and ended up getting pointless. I think we should give a chance to Kaguya. But don't know how Kishimoto will build this villain.


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## Abanikochan (Jun 4, 2014)

I agree wholeheartedly with you Pika. 

I feel like this manga is now being written by that alien conspiracist dude. It doesn't even feel like the same manga anymore.


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## Stan Lee (Jun 4, 2014)

Chaelius said:


> *By a character with the same plan and motivation* but none of the established background?



Did you even read this chapter?


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## Chaelius (Jun 4, 2014)

Zero Requiem said:


> Did you even read this chapter?



Eternal Tsukuyomi, enslaving everyone, taking all chakra, 3/3 on Madara's to do list. 


It's the same schtick with some Zetsu added in.


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## Skull007 (Jun 4, 2014)

It didn't sound like madara was gonna take all chakra

Maybe kaguya interrupted him, but as far as his conversation with naruto went, that seemed to be the end of his plans

Otherwise, why would kaguya betray him?


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## Stan Lee (Jun 4, 2014)

The Faceless Man said:


> There are so many tears and salt in this thread. Its like an ocean of butthurt.



Not only that but Kishi already stated in an interview that Madara was not the final villain. Juubi and Sasuke came after.


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

Abanikochan said:


> I agree wholeheartedly with you Pika.
> 
> I feel like this manga is now being written by that alien conspiracist dude. It doesn't even feel like the same manga anymore.



I'm sure you thought differently two chapters ago


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## Deleted member 206107 (Jun 4, 2014)

Zero Requiem said:


> Not only that but Kishi already stated in an interview that Madara was not the final villain. Juubi and Sasuke came after.



Actually kishi did state that madara was the one last villain not too long ago.


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## Gunners (Jun 4, 2014)

I find Kaguya preferable to Madara. As a villain the later stank like horse shit and you can tell with the series overall decline. For all of his development and foundation, you claim was there, he did not have a connection to the main cast; he always gave a ''so the fuck what impression'', which left me uninterested. 

That being said, I'm not saying Kaguya is a good villain; it is an element that needs develop. She has the potential of being better than the stinking trash heap that was Madara. Hopefully Kishimoto establishes a villain that gives some fucks about the primary cast so that their interaction are more than just hero to villain banter.


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## Sete (Jun 4, 2014)

All in all this is just a big rant about how Madara was replaced by Kaguya as FV. Thats what I took from the essay.
Madara could not even be brought back and have Obito doing shit on his place and same thing would happen I bet you would see things differently. 
Pain in is awesomeness was just a pawn. Obito was just a pawn. Madara was just a pawn. Tough life.


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## Roxa5 (Jun 4, 2014)

Disregard OP posts. Madara was dragging it for too long.


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## saduj (Jun 4, 2014)

If you have to write an essay over a manga for 12 year olds you are already wrong.


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## RBL (Jun 4, 2014)

Stelios said:


> PikaCheeka Shonen Manga's target group is 10-18. You have long passed the age where you can be impressed by this level of writing.



still doesn't justify the shitty soldout storyline naruto has been having ever since the beggining of shippuden.

tbh i knew avatar the legend of aang was a cartoon made for kids, and  i enjoyed it, and was well written for most of the parts, [kind of rushed tho]

kishimoto tried to write a complex manga, but he failed, the only reason naruto is so popular is because of the amazing characters he onced created, the backstories etc...(now he's been ruining a lot of them tho) any other than that, this manga sucks.


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

Sete said:


> All in all this is just a *big rant* about how Madara was replaced by Kaguya as FV. Thats what I took from the essay.
> *Madara could not even be brought back and have Obito doing shit on his place and same thing would happen I bet you would see things differently. *
> Pain in is awesomeness was just a pawn. Obito was just a pawn. Madara was just a pawn. Tough life.



^100x this


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## DeK3iDE (Jun 4, 2014)

Gunners said:


> I find Kaguya preferable to Madara. As a villain the later stank like horse shit and you can tell with the series overall decline. For all of his development and foundation, you claim was there, he did not have a connection to the main cast; he always gave a ''so the fuck what impression'', which left me uninterested.
> 
> That being said, I'm not saying Kaguya is a good villain; it is an element that needs develop. She has the potential of being better than the stinking trash heap that was Madara. Hopefully Kishimoto establishes a villain that gives some fucks about the primary cast so that their interaction are more than just hero to villain banter.


you want to know how i know this assessment is complete and utter bullshit? The manga sales were higher than it's ever been when Madara became the focal point. How does someone who stinks as a villain become the reason why the manga sale's went up the way it did? Doesn't compute.


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## Stan Lee (Jun 4, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> Actually kishi did state that madara was the one last villain not too long ago.



Was that after the interview I mentioned?


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> Actually kishi did state that madara was the one last villain not too long ago.



Nah, those were merely the WSJ editors who wrote it: 



Highly unlikely Kishi had any input in that.


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## CA182 (Jun 4, 2014)

**I was gonna post a long message but I don't see the need.

It would be lost in here this week.

I will say though. I have no problems with her introduction, her character or even the fact she exists.


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## Jotun (Jun 4, 2014)

I actually liked Kaguya replacing Madara. It doesn't even have to make sense to me or anyone else. After a certain point you just have to let go and enjoy the manga for what it is. 

At this point I'm just waiting to see how crazy Kishi wants to go with this.


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## CuteJuubi (Jun 4, 2014)

Jotun said:


> I actually liked Kaguya replacing Madara. It doesn't even have to make sense to me or anyone else. After a certain point you just have to let go and enjoy the manga for what it is.
> 
> At this point I'm just waiting to see how crazy Kishi wants to go with this.



Yeah, out with the old and in with the new I guess.


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## Kyuubi Naruto (Jun 4, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> Actually kishi did state that madara was the one last villain not too long ago.



Those same editors also said these things in similar situations: 

- FRS would be Naruto's strongest jutsu
- Gaara was the strongest Kazekage (then a few weeks later it was found out he wasn't)

Those things never end up staying true. It's always mentioning current time.


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## Deleted member 206107 (Jun 4, 2014)

Zero Requiem said:


> Was that after the interview I mentioned?



Yes . 

10 char


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## KingBoo (Jun 4, 2014)

madara was treated like trash by kishi because he thought he was in control this whole time, and that made him comfortable and safe in his position. madara is one of my favorites too, but i can see his treatment as a lesson, don't be blinded by your pride or accomplishments, it can disappear in a moment's notice



besides, maybe he's not really dead. maybe kaguya will release his body when this is all done. maybe


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## ElementX (Jun 4, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> Don't try to tell me she was planned (and by "planned", I mean  at least one year in advance; this manga is from the '90s. Saying "oh Kishi hinted at this a month ago!" is a joke). Don't try to tell me she wasn't a last-minute retcon designed very recently solely because Kishi didn't know how to deal with Madara. If you think that, if you think this is honestly "good writing", you're a total fool. There is no hope for you. You're the type of apologist who thinks there is no such thing as objectively terrible writing, who tries to force their speshul snowflake syndrome into the literary realm. Just accept it. *This isn't about "being right". This isn't about being fans or haters of one character or another. This is about what is and isn't acceptable in a work of fiction, and Kishi has crossed a line here unprecedented in anything I have ever seen.*





This man speaks nothing but the truth.  

Of course, me and many others have been saying this ever since the climax of the war arc itself. This manga is a train wreck of epic proportions. This is like fan fiction levels of absurd.


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## Kai (Jun 4, 2014)

KingBoo said:


> madara was treated like trash by kishi *because he thought he was in control this whole time, and that made him comfortable and safe in his position*. madara is one of my favorites too, *but i can see his treatment as a lesson*, don't be blinded by your pride or accomplishments, it can disappear in a moment's notice


That's another take on it too.

When it comes to villains, Kishi is showing us there is no reason to believe one is somehow special in regards to his/her position and that it's rather presumptuous to think they will always comfortably be in control.


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## The Prodigy (Jun 4, 2014)

I agree. The whole Juubi/Shinju tree thing... I didn't mind that. Kaguya eating the fruit and angering the Juubi. .. but Kaguya is now stronger than the Juubi by taking a small bit of its power? The order kishi went with that alone was confusing as hell and bad writing.


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## ?Sharingan Squid? (Jun 4, 2014)

I fully agree with you, it's almost completely out of the blue and nonsensical as all hell. It's also ridiculous that what led up to that was Madara getting really just fucking lame plot treatment (right after "killing" Nardo and Sasque and becoming the JJ), such as him getting knocked around by a comic relief character and having a half-dead Obito actually pull chakra away from him.

Well anyway, what's bound to happen now is Kaguya's grandma's dog will somehow end up appearing and betraying Kaguya in turn. Sense was thrown out the window a good while ago, i'd even dare say back when the whole Rinnegan and the Rikudou Sennin bullshit was introduced.


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## navy (Jun 4, 2014)

To be honest, all I see is butthurt about Madara your fave being taken out and used ironically as a pawn, and you trying to objectify your own opinions in a topic that is mainly subjective no matter how badly you want to think otherwise. 

My main problem with the whole thing is that you have not given Kishi sufficient time to piece this all together. Something happened that you didnt like and you immediately dismissed it because it happened to Madara. This is the forefront of the issue, not whether we are discussing good or bad writing. 

I personally will wait for Kishi to explain or attempt to explain it all and if I find literary contradictions and unexplained holes I will bump this thread and proclaim you a Nostradamus. 

For now, I will take the manga for what it is.


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## Axl Low (Jun 4, 2014)

>few words
>wall of text taking up 2 posts

PICK ONE >:I


but really
i gave up on making sense early in part 2

ive just rolled to see if there are any redeeming factors


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## Milliardo (Jun 4, 2014)

i agree with pika this is manga has turned into dogshit. kishimoto is smearing shit on a page and selling it to you... only fanboys will love this shit and nurture it staying blind to the truth. 

this is the end of the manga as we know it because kishimoto said naruto ends this year. so it is horrible just horrible to bring a character literally out of nowhere and make her final villain.  we've known the character for like 20 chapters and she literally has no connection to sasuke or naruto.  it feels greatly out of place.. people really can't shit on bleach after this because its on the same level. kishimoto admitted he didn't plan things out and it has been greatly shown in this war arc. 

people have been trying to defend kishimoto's writing for years now because its been so bad with all the inconsistencies but this takes the cake... make up all the excuses you want but people know the truth of just how bad this is. people say give it time well there is no time the manga is ending this year.. really though what would time give another villain? so kishi can shit on another character and waste people's time? yea, no thank you.

pika i feel your pain and you are 100% right in what you are saying.


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## Axl Low (Jun 4, 2014)

Milliardo said:


> i agree with pika this is manga has turned into dogshit. kishimoto is smearing shit on a page and selling it to you... only fanboys will love this shit and nurture it staying blind to the truth.
> 
> this is the end of the manga as we know it because kishimoto said naruto ends this year. so it is horrible just horrible to bring a character literally out of nowhere and make her final villain.  we've known the character for like 20 chapters and she literally has no connection to sasuke or naruto.  it feels greatly out of place.. people really can't shit on bleach after this because its on the same level. kishimoto admitted he didn't plan things out and it has been greatly shown in this war arc.
> 
> ...



the last well written arc was the rescue arc in the end on part 1


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## Stan Lee (Jun 4, 2014)

Chaelius said:


> Eternal Tsukuyomi, enslaving everyone, taking all chakra, 3/3 on Madara's to do list.
> 
> 
> It's the same schtick with some Zetsu added in.



Madara not want all the chakra nor really enslave them. He wanted to be their savior.


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## Axl Low (Jun 4, 2014)

he is faildara for a reason


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 4, 2014)

You know, Madara would never have been my first choice for main/final villain. Obito definitely not. Yet they, Orochimaru, Deva Pain, Itachi, Sasuke or Kabuto would have been at least suitable for final villain for one reason: they had a personal relationship with the cast at large. They were established characters years in the making, the dynamics they had with characters we did care about made stand out too. When they did something evil it actually felt something was at stake, that even if you disliked them you were interested in how at least they would fail. I do not feel that with Kaguya, because she was very recently shoehorned in. She has no buildup, and for Kishi to try and do that now is just pathetic, so I understand your disappointment.

This has been Kishi's thing for a while though, to build up a villain and then just completely drop the ball. Look at how Akatsuki's potential was wasted. 

I was looking forward to Madara's death as a signal to the end of this arc, not to drag it out even further. I think that's one of the worst things about it, the arc was abysmal as it is, and Kishi just seemed to want to keep digging the trench with this Kaguya stuff.


----------



## Revolution (Jun 4, 2014)

It is not a Deus ex Machina.  The moon was hinted as being important since part one.

Instead of runining Madara's character, it saved it.  His final words were about protecting people's happiness (even if it was just mind-controlled bs) as connecting everyone is a form of ninshu, but contradicted by the fact that people's own dreams is on the selfish side.

In a way Kaguya's apperance will probably bring all the convoluted contradictions together to make sense once mysteries are answered.

If you want to know Madara's side of the story (as it was not revealed by his own words, but through Tobi and Hashirama) it is coming.

Also, Kishi didn't get rid of Madara by a more powerful force "because he didn't know how to get rid of him" because Kaguya is even MORE POWERFUL then Madara.

Don't worry, Madara still has a role to play if that's what you are worried about.

But Sasuke is still FV because he is the main antagonist.


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## shintebukuro (Jun 4, 2014)

ChickenPotPie said:


> My ass.  This is the same Kishimoto that had to change the 3rd Hokage's first name to his last name so he could retcanon Asuma as his son.



I agree with you on that example, but it doesn't change how Kishimoto could have named Kaguya _anything_ he wanted...


I mean, I don't think he had Kaguya in mind when he first wrote Kimimaro in part 1, but *there is no doubt at all that he methodically picked out her name to create a link to Kimimaro*. It's not a coincidence or something...



			
				Milliardo said:
			
		

> i agree with pika this is manga has turned into dogshit. kishimoto is smearing shit on a page and selling it to you... only fanboys will love this shit and nurture it staying blind to the truth.
> 
> this is the end of the manga as we know it because kishimoto said naruto ends this year. so it is horrible just horrible to bring a character literally out of nowhere and make her final villain. we've known the character for like 20 chapters and she literally has no connection to sasuke or naruto. it feels greatly out of place.. people really can't shit on bleach after this because its on the same level. kishimoto admitted he didn't plan things out and it has been greatly shown in this war arc.
> 
> people have been trying to defend kishimoto's writing for years now because its been so bad with all the inconsistencies but this takes the cake... make up all the excuses you want but people know the truth of just how bad this is. people say give it time well there is no time the manga is ending this year.. really though what would time give another villain? so kishi can shit on another character and waste people's time? yea, no thank you.



The manga is not ending this year. I'm sorry, but that's a retarded idea.

We have yet to learn anything about Kaguya, or Sasuke's Rinnegan ability, or what Hagoromo actually gave him and Naruto, and then we have Hamura who was created and named because he will have a part to play as well...

And you think _all_ this info will be delivered on, _all_ the fights taken care of, _all_ the closure given to everyone, and then the aftermath and epilogue all written, within 20ish chapters?

When Guy using the 8th gate took fuckin four chapters in itself?




Kaguya is not the final villain, and the manga is not even NEAR close to done. I'm sorry things didn't work out the way you had envisioned.


----------



## Revolution (Jun 4, 2014)

Sarahmint said:


> [sp]It is not a Deus ex Machina.  The moon was hinted as being important since part one.
> 
> Instead of runining Madara's character, it saved it.  His final words were about protecting people's happiness (even if it was just mind-controlled bs) as connecting everyone is a form of ninshu, but contradicted by the fact that people's own dreams is on the selfish side.
> 
> ...




I also forgot to mention this -

1. Fans complain that Tobi being Obito is too obvious.

2. Now fans complain that Kaguya as "Mastermind" is too out of nowhere.



sounds like a contradiction and fans might actually be frustrated about something else (like maybe not about Kaguya or Tobi, but the fact that there is a "Mastermind" villain in the first place)


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## Deleted member 45015 (Jun 4, 2014)

shintebukuro said:


> What is currently occurring villain-wise in the manga is in its infancy and cannot possibly be judged as good or bad writing just yet.



Yes, of course it can. Something being in its infancy or its end stage is _irrelevant_. At any moment it is and may come under scrutiny. 



shintebukuro said:


> You are _guessing_ how things will play out, and then judging the writing of the current chapter based on your own guesses for the future. But if you couldn't guess this would all occur in the first place, then what value do your guesses even have?



NOPE! 

I am guessing _nothing_ so your point is invalid. 

And if you're telling me you could guess that this was going to happen then you need to quit lying to yourself and to me. I've no time for it. Either offer a _legitimate _defence for recent developments or shut up. 

I'm judging the writing of the current Chapter based on my own perception and knowledge of writing or even storytelling. Nothing about Kaguya's presence is justified, nothing about it is necessary, nothing about it is good storytelling or good writing. 
It's a Boring Invincible Villain with a tenuous connection at best to the plot and virtually none to the characters.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 4, 2014)

Sete said:


> Well thats like, your opinion man.





celebrei said:


> Like I said, the OP's reasoning is merely personal bias and subjective opinion, you can write this essay by replacing Madara with either Pain or Tobi and substitute Kaguya with "Madara" and it will still mean the same thing : personal opinion.





Roxa5 said:


> Disregard OP posts. Madara was dragging it for too long.





saduj said:


> If you have to write an essay over a manga for 12 year olds you are already wrong.



Evidently, reading is too difficult for some people. 



Eylandos said:


> So a guy who loves Madara, can't even give Kaguya a full chapter?
> 
> Damn it let Kishi flesh out the character a little and then see where it takes us.



See this is a ridiculous argument to make. Madara's presence as an antagonistic force was over 10 years in the making, pretty much the plot led up to a confrontation with him, or something driven by his legacy, not Kaguya's. That is a huge thing to throw to the wayside, especially in the climatic arc of the story. It is ridiculous to think that can be replicated at this point by a character that was only just introduced earlier this year. "Just see where it takes us" is an absurd statement to make in the face of that. Kishi has a trend with completely wasting his antagonists' potential as I stated before, but one would expect more competence in the final run of the story.


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## Gunners (Jun 4, 2014)

Seto shut up.


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## Deleted member 45015 (Jun 4, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> See this is a ridiculous argument to make. Madara's presence as an antagonistic force was over 10 years in the making, pretty much the plot led up to a confrontation with him, or something driven by his legacy, not Kaguya's. That is a huge thing to throw to the wayside, especially in the climatic arc of the story. It is ridiculous to think that can be replicated at this point by a character that was only just introduced earlier this year. "Just see where it takes us" is an absurd statement to make in the face of that. Kishi has a trend with completely wasting his antagonists' potential as I stated before, but one would expect more competence in the final run of the story.



​


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## Stan Lee (Jun 4, 2014)

CM Pope said:


> Yes, of course it can. Something being in its infancy or its end stage is _irrelevant_. At any moment it is and may come under scrutiny.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Kaguya does tie up that loose end with the sharingan and byukgan being related rumor back in part 1.


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## Deleted member 45015 (Jun 4, 2014)

Zero Requiem said:


> Kaguya does tie up that loose end with the sharingan and byukgan being related back in part 1.



You make a good point. However I don't believe that is any justification for what's happened since she handily fulfilled that role simply by being a face of the past.


----------



## Bruce Wayne (Jun 4, 2014)

Kaguya saved us from more Uchiha angst flashbacks, that alone should be wroth enough praise for Kishi. :33


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 4, 2014)

Gunners said:


> Seto shut up.



I don't feel like it.


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## Gunners (Jun 4, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> I don't feel like it.



 **


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## MoeDar (Jun 4, 2014)

Maybe, just maybe that after everyone got their most wanted dreamlife, Madara decided to give himself too since he hates being lonely.

The BZ betrayal, Kaguya, and (most likely) Madara's revival is only happens in Madara's most wanted dream (ie 'constant fight against the big guns'). 

The Mugen Tsukiyomi light is still shining actually, there's no way out for Team7  They are still inside the Susanoo's wings.


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## Gunners (Jun 4, 2014)

Seriously though, I have my reservations. 

Madara's exit is something I have zero qualms with. At first I expected him to go down against Naruto and Sasuke, but the way he went out is consistent with Kishimoto's style of writing. In general the focal point of a character's nature plays a strong part in how they exit. For Deidara it was his art, for Sasori it was dying in his parents arm, for Kisame it was the preservation of secrets, Kakuzu was linked to his years of experience betraying him. Madara was a character who relied on manipulations and schemes, so his _end_ was ironic. 

It was also the case of him paying the price for being Jinchuriki. Time and time again we saw that housing the Bijuu was no small feat, yet it was something he did with ease. The fact that he had no difficulty in dealing with the Juubi pointed towards him suffering some consequences at a later point in time. 

It's also worth noting that Madara is at the core of Kaguya. I suspect that whatever Harashima gave to Sasuke will play some role in giving him a measure of control. It's a more respectable exit for the character than simply having him convert; instead of the memories making him change for ethical reasons, the memories would give him the strength to resist Kaguya for a period of time ( something his present character would want to do). 

As for Kaguya as a villain, I'm on the fence. I'm not a fan of these Russian doll type villains, so how I accept Kaguya will ultimately depend on how she ties into the Bijuu. Assuming her and the Juubi are one in the same, I will appreciate the development. Whilst Kaguya herself is a new character, the origin of the Bijuu has been a relevant question for some time. Making the Bijuu and Kaguya one in the same builds on what was already there, and is arguably preferable as it can add depth to a mindless beast.

What actually bothers me about Kaguya, and the developments of late, is the level of power involved. I feel that things like creating an obedient army would mean a lot more if she had a realistic level of power.


----------



## Kai (Jun 4, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> See this is a ridiculous argument to make. Madara's presence as an antagonistic force was over 10 years in the making, pretty much the plot led up to a confrontation with him, or something driven by his legacy, not Kaguya's. That is a huge thing to throw to the wayside, especially in the climatic arc of the story. It is ridiculous to think that can be replicated at this point by a character that was only just introduced earlier this year. "Just see where it takes us" is an absurd statement to make in the face of that. Kishi has a trend with completely wasting his antagonists' potential as I stated before, but one would expect more competence in the final run of the story.


Look, if Kaguya is involved in Madara's VOTE survival or his post-VOTE life (things that have remained a mystery by Kishi since midway through Part 2), you can't say her involvement was out of nowhere.

Let's wait to see if Kaguya had any hand in these past events.

If she does, Kishi *purposely* left those events unexplained for hundreds of chapters until the final stage.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 4, 2014)

Kai said:


> Look, if Kaguya is involved in Madara's VOTE survival or his post-VOTE life (things that have remained a mystery by Kishi since midway through Part 2), you can't say her involvement was out of nowhere.
> 
> Let's wait to see if Kaguya had any hand in these past events.
> 
> If she does, Kishi *purposely* left those events unexplained for hundreds of chapters until the final stage.



You aren't really getting it are you? That doesn't change what was built up for the past decade, who was built up for the past decade. As I said, you can't replicate that kind of buildup, definitely not now.


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## Kai (Jun 4, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> You aren't really getting it are you? That doesn't change what was built up for the past decade, who was built up for the past decade.


I do get it actually. I've already stated numerous times that I think how Madara was treated is terribly executed but the existence of Kaguya in the manga is not.

I'm responding to the criticism that Kaguya came out of nowhere when in all likelihood she has had subtle influence throughout history.

I mean Hagoromo, who has been dead for centuries, knew about Madara and everything he did. Is it really such an atrocity to think Kaguya equally knew what was going on, if not more?


----------



## Stan Lee (Jun 4, 2014)

CM Pope said:


> You make a good point. However I don't believe that is any justification for what's happened since she handily fulfilled that role simply by being a face of the past.



Kishi has been revolving things that were mentioned in part 1 this past year. And I like it.

The One-Tails being the spirit of a priest - Tied
8Th Gate being stronger than the Hokages -Tied
Sharingan and byakugan being related - Tied

This chapter hinted that Kaguya is going to battle with somebody. If that battle is with Jashin then I don't mind the series getting milked a bit longer as the series as everything would  feel connected and whole.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 4, 2014)

Kai said:


> I do get it actually. I've already stated numerous times that I think how Madara was treated is terribly executed but the existence of Kaguya in the manga is not.
> 
> I'm responding to the criticism that Kaguya came out of nowhere when in all likelihood she has had subtle influence throughout history.
> 
> I mean Hagoromo, who has been dead for centuries, knew about Madara and everything he did. Is it really such an atrocity to think Kaguya equally knew what was going on, if not more?



I'm talking about reader perspective here. Kishi can go back all he wants and make it out now that Kaguya was the big puppetmaster, but that does not change the actual passage of time, and how long we've been acquainted with antagonists like Madara. Again, that is what I said is one big thing that separates he and the others from Kaguya.

So saying "wait and see" is ridiculous. It always seems to be "wait and see" and never a good time to pass judgment on these things. I think now is a good a time as any to pass judgment.


----------



## Klue (Jun 4, 2014)

Zero Requiem said:


> 8Th Gate being stronger than the *Hokages*-Tied



8Th Gate bestowed power above a Kage. Not all Five. And to the point of reaching Juubi Jinchuuriki level?

PFFFFFF, WTF am I reading?

Anyway, carry on.


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## RBL (Jun 4, 2014)

Klue said:


> 8Th Gate bestowed power above a Kage. Not all Five. And to the point of reaching Juubi Jinchuuriki level?
> 
> PFFFFFF, WTF am I reading?
> 
> Anyway, carry on.



ten tails, sage of the six paths, child of prophecy, kaguya's will, naruto and sasuke are reincarnation of other beings.

what the fuck am i reading?


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 4, 2014)

I agree for the most part. Mainly on Kaguya not having been given enough foreshadowing to be justified coming in this late, the abundant inconsistencies/retcons in her story and the ridiculousness of the whole build a white Zetsu army from the people of the world to fight some unknown battle that will undoubtedly be something stupid. I do think that Madara shouldn't have been the final villain of this arc because he is just another "victim" of the cycle of hatred that has been the real enemy for the last three hundred chapters or so. I wouldn't mind it being Kaguya if she was built up to better, as it was either her or the Juubi that caused the cycle.

Really Madara should have just been taken over by the Juubi due to not having enough love in his heart, fulfilling the foreshadowing by Mito that the vessel needs to be filled with love. It would have made perfect sense and given Obito more credit as a character/villain for being able to succeed in an area where Madara failed.


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## Njaa (Jun 4, 2014)

I honestly would've preferred if the FV had stayed as the masked man. Only revealed to be Obito after his defeat along with flashbacks for the purpose he did it. Sure it would still be Rin Rin RIn but at least given gaiden it would be understandable. Even Madara himself was shoehorned in since if it wasn't for Kabuto, Madara would never have even come back. Not to mention MeP and IT existed as the plan of the masked "Madara" and only after he actually came back as an edo was this plan attributed to the real Madara.

The whole FV replacement just ruined what little sense of danger and suspense was left in this arc. As much as i enjoyed edo-Madara once he became JuubiJin he went downhill fast. Now that Kaguya has taken center stage i honestly don't give a darn beyond maybe some Byakugan feats and more world building in terms of the history between Kaguya and her sons.


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## Keishin (Jun 4, 2014)

Sauron said:


> It's laughable that some people actually compare this to Pain's/Nagato's or Tobi's introduction. The manga is almost finished guys, we are at the final battle of this war and after this, there will be Naruto vs. Sasuke which will conclude the series. You can't just pull out a villain from air and replace the main antagonist with her at this point of story.  Kishi should have introduced Kaguya a long time ago for this to be acceptable.
> 
> Introducing Pain as Akatsuki leader or Tobi being the man behind Pain was completely different situation, where we just learned to know which characters will be the main villains.
> 
> Kishi went through a lot of chapters to make Madara gain his full might, and after finally becoming Juubi's Jinchuuriki and recovering both Rinnegans, one would except that he would now start his final battle against Naruto & Sasuke. But instead this happens.



Maybe Kishimoto just wants to end this manga with a woman being the strongest so that people complain less and the story would be more perfected. This way we can also get insight to the beginning of it all. The shinju fruit ( which will most likely be either sasukes or narutos powerup), Hamura and maybe Kaguyas husband and all of the things we don't know will come into play here.


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## Stan Lee (Jun 4, 2014)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> I agree for the most part. Mainly on Kaguya not having been given enough foreshadowing to be justified coming in this late, the abundant inconsistencies/retcons in her story and the ridiculousness of the whole build a white Zetsu army from the people of the world to fight some unknown battle that will undoubtedly be something stupid. I do think that Madara shouldn't have been the final villain of this arc because he is just another "victim" of the cycle of hatred that has been the real enemy for the last three hundred chapters or so. I wouldn't mind it being Kaguya if she was built up to better, as it was either her or the Juubi that caused the cycle.
> 
> Really Madara should have just been taken over by the Juubi due to not having enough love in his heart, fulfilling the foreshadowing by Mito that the vessel needs to be filled with love. It would have made perfect sense and given Obito more credit as a character/villain for being able to succeed in an area where Madara failed.



Its strongly hinted that Kaguya *is* the juubi. With it turning into her and all.


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## Kyuubi Naruto (Jun 4, 2014)

Freedan said:


> That's the problem. Madara was revealed to us, hyped, *his role as FV foreshadowed long before he made his effective entrance*, AND his relevance to the main characters, Naruto and Sasuke, made clear when they fought at the end of part 1 (altho said relevance changed along with Kishi as the story progressed). That's how long we've been given hints of Madara's influence on the story. His character has been fleshed out long before we actually got to see him. Kaguya's had none of that, which some of us find problematic.
> 
> This chapter is virtually the prime example of everything that's wrong with writing a story as you go along as opposed to planning it out over the long run (which is what I hear Oda has done with One Piece).



Nope. 

Madara was never the FV. Sure, people thought that but I never did. That's why these situations happen and people can't get a grip. 





Euraj said:


> *A long time ago, one of the main complaints about the villains of the manga was that they were too close to the main characters, which opened up too many chances for them being defeated by emotions and circumstances rather than power.*
> 
> -
> 
> As for the "inconsistencies," you'll just have to exercise some patience. *You know plenty of stuff about Pain, Tobi, Itachi, and Madara made zero sense for a long time*.





mayumi said:


> *The problem is OP believing in anything kishimoto says in interviews. Like all the time he has trolled and given sarcastic answers, you would think he didn't mean it when he said he made madara so strong. You choose to believe him. Others did not.
> 
> Kishimoto in part 1 wanted Oro to be the villan but he wasn't popular enough so we got a new villan. Orochimaru fans still like him even though he is about to become white zetsu. Stuff happens, all of it is under kishimots's whims.*





shintebukuro said:


> Give it a chance, Pika. *
> 
> The biggest culprit here is the belief that you can deduce with logic everything that Kishi is going to write before he does it. After he's thrown you for numerous loops, you need to accept that you cannot possibly anticipate where he's headed next, right?
> *
> Madara is not done, and this could all end up being awesome for him. We don't know.





vagnard said:


> While I agree with you in many points* the main reason because people like you or other Madara fans are trolled is because they trolled Obito and other villians a lot and claimed all the time Madara was an "exception"*.
> *
> We ALL told you many times that all villians are trolled in this manga. ALL. There is no exception.* It will be the same for Kaguya who seems to be the new shiny toy of the fan wars. Kishimoto simply can't handle a villian so in order to hype a new villian he trolls the previous one.
> 
> ...





Arya Stark said:


> *But I don't understand how you didn't see it coming.
> **
> 
> He's predictable*.
> ...





Keishin said:


> *It seems like you just can't understand Kishimotos writing...* He obviously did this in order to find a legit way to give complete closure to everything that has been mentioned in the manga so far.  Kaguya probably just wants to revive her husband and we need to see Hagoromos brother.
> 
> *
> Sasuke is going to be the Final Villain so Obito, Madara, Kaguya.. It doesn't matter.*





Lelouch71 said:


> The manga went to hell after Pain/Nagato died for me.* Madara was a crappy and very boring villain. There was nothing interesting about him. He was just some bland delusional megalomaniac. Nagato and even Obito had better writing than him.* In fact, I still think the manga should had stuck with Nagato as the mastermind. Kaguya if nothing else bring something new to the table.



First of all, I want to commend all the posters who I've quoted and what I'd put in bold. 

They're 100% correct. 

Whether people disagree or not....this shit is not new. I've noticed damn near everyone saying the manga's been "ruined" or "Madara was FV" or "I didn't see this coming" or "Kishi's jumped the shark" or whatever and the truth is this....the truth is that you guys really have not been caught up with the manga as long as most of these people have and considering this, you don't "get it". That's the truth whether you like it or not and if you have? If you truly have? Then you cannot predict well. Why I say that is this....Kishi has particular clues, suggestions, plots, angles, comments, nuances he goes through in this manga. 

This man is predictable with most things. 

Considering this, what happened to Madara? It's the same thing we all said would happen to him. Why? Because it was bound to happen. It isn't about "disliking Madara" or being a "fan of Madara". It's just based on how Kishi's writing has always been in the manga. I'd be stating the same thing had I been a fan of him, as a lot of his fans have stated it as well. It's the same thing we said would eventually happen to Obito as well. These two characters had no chance at being FV. You know who had the last chance that isn't Sasuke? 

It was Pain. 

Pain was a man who, back in the day, had the strongest eye known. His eye went beyond the Sharingan which was the strongest known eye in the series. Pain was the leader of Akatsuki, the group who was running roughshod over Jinchuuriki since the beginning. They were the main antagonists which most of the manga had been about at that point. However, do you know the moment when Pain stopped being a FV candidate? 

The moment he brought up Rikudou, the god of the Narutoverse. 

Rikudou's mention basically introduced a new tier to the manga. Because of this, this tier, no one had a shot at being the FV unless they were either from Rikudou's time (which Madara is clearly not) or they were Sasuke (who's going to end up being the FV). That's basically it. In a manga like this, that goes beyond what hold Madara had on the plot considering it went beyond his years. As Kishi's shown us since the beginning, the further the timeline went back, the deeper the opponents go.  That should have been it but honestly, I see people saying "Madara was this" and "Madara was that" but truth of the matter is you guys have not been here long enough to catch Kishi's trends, nuances, style, whatever, you just didn't pick up on it considering when you joined Obito was the big bad. You weren't here when it was Oro. You weren't here when it was Pain. There are things you just "get" from those dates. Madara also had other problems with his character that eliminated him from the FV position. For one, he was too connected to Sasuke. Why would Madara, a benchmark for Sasuke, end up being the FV? Do people not understand how crucial this manga is on benchmarks? No benchmark will ever become FV. Maybe they thought Madara was above Uchiha Sasuke. Funny.

Let this be a lesson to anyone who assumes certain characters are above the plot.

All of this is complaining. The same whining, complaining, bitching and "wahhhh oh nooo I hate dis manga now I'm gonna lose it!!!111111" coming from the people in this thread should have been saying the same exact thing when Orochimaru, Pain and Obito left the manga from a main villain perspective.

The difference is that they fell in love with Madara's character and thought he was an exception to the rule. 

Obviously, as Kishimoto's proven, that is false. 

As for Kaguya, the main reason people are hyped is because she's a breath of fresh air for this manga compared to Madara. Madara's relevancy exists with this War and this whole "Founders Era" thing. Kaguya however is beyond that. Kaguya comes from a time in which that didn't exist. Her ways are far different than Madara's ways. Kaguya's also far different than Madara given how she was acting this chapter. Of course, her power is off the charts but given what she can potentially bring, it'll be far different than what Madara's done. I know many notable NFers that straight up stopped posting much because Madara's portion (the War for that matter) was bringing the manga down for them. The War is boring. We've been seeing it for 4 years. It. Is. Boring. Kaguya's not about the War. She's different. It was mentioned that Kaguya needs soldiers for "something". That in itself puts a new spin on things. 

With that said, the potential is there. We just have to see it. Anyone jumping the gun is frankly upset. 

I'm shocked that people are this upset about it. Threatening to harm themselves, saying the manga ruined "their lives", saying they hate anyone who's a fan of Kaguya, shit like that. Anyone saying this, straight up, you need help. This manga is not that serious. This manga should not have that much control over your life and if it truly does you need to abandon it at all costs and get some real mental help. That is a health issue. 

This series is not for you.

Anyway, that's all I gotta say about that issue.


----------



## saduj (Jun 4, 2014)

Milliardo said:


> i agree with pika this is manga has turned into dogshit. kishimoto is smearing shit on a page and selling it to you... only fanboys will love this shit and nurture it staying blind to the truth.
> 
> this is the end of the manga as we know it because kishimoto said naruto ends this year. so it is horrible just horrible to bring a character literally out of nowhere and make her final villain.  we've known the character for like 20 chapters and she literally has no connection to sasuke or naruto.  it feels greatly out of place.. people really can't shit on bleach after this because its on the same level. kishimoto admitted he didn't plan things out and it has been greatly shown in this war arc.
> 
> ...



Or maybe you should have realized you are reading a comic book for small children, seriously, imagine a grown man throwing a tantrum because the muppets has a plot line he doesnt like, thats what you guys look like.


----------



## Vanadius (Jun 4, 2014)

First of all, I just want to say how appalled I am at the garbage Kishi has been giving us for the past few months.  Honestly, I am somewhat in a state of shock.  I've never seen writing this stupid.  I've never read anything this horrendously irrational.  

Is this the end of Madara Uchiha?  This is how it goes down?  He gets backstabbed by Black Zetsu and is just absorbed/transformed into Kaguya?  It makes absolutely no sense. 

I'm in no mood to write an entire analysis as to why this manga is completely worthless at this point.  Replacing Madara with Kaguya at this point serves what purpose exactly?  Ridiculous.  Now that Madara is gone, this manga has basically flatlined.   There are no other characters that are interesting or even remotely worth caring about.

We'll see how this goes.  I'll hold my opinion till then.  There's always the possibility that Madara could help Sasuke and Naruto from within Kaguya.  But I've completely lost whatever feelings I've had for the manga at this point.  Kishimoto is basically an idiot.  And to think how awesome the series was for the middle of Part 2.  

I'm just sticking around to see how it ends at this point.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jun 4, 2014)

saduj said:


> Or maybe you should have realized you are reading a comic book for small children, seriously, imagine a grown man throwing a tantrum because the muppets has a plot line he doesnt like, thats what you guys look like.



And you look like an oaf trying to hide his inadequacy. Thinking is hard, so let's just try to belittle those that can actually put that effort out.

I mean, what a retarded response. Did ATLA being for kids and teens stop it from being a critically acclaimed series? No. Why is that? Because the writers knew and wanted the series to appeal well beyond its demographic. The same goes for virtually any major shonen title, that includes Naruto. It's been that way for decades. The same goes for movie franchises, and virtually any form of storytelling in entertainment media. 

Because a good story is a good story, regardless of what its target demographic may have been. All the same, its genre does not excuse a story's lack of quality either.


----------



## I am not a nigger (Jun 4, 2014)

what is going on here


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## Jeαnne (Jun 4, 2014)

one way to save this twist is if Kaguya is actually some kind of representation of the darkness and responsible for the whole curse of hatred going on through all generations.

when kishi made black zetsu being her will i thought of this, it would be almost as if her will has been contaminating specially uchihas, explaining the whole fall into darkness stuff.

she could use the darkness in the uchiha's hearts to "hijack" them(explaining also why they start to develop the sharingan through traumatic experiences), in the same way that the frog explained how kyuubi used the darkness in his heart to take him over.


----------



## Arya Stark (Jun 4, 2014)

Let's not forget that those who were child when the manga started are now well into their twenties and some of them didn't drop the book. Just like Harry Potter books, the manga should have reached a maturity with its audience.


----------



## Gabe (Jun 4, 2014)

Milliardo said:


> i agree with pika this is manga has turned into dogshit. kishimoto is smearing shit on a page and selling it to you... only fanboys will love this shit and nurture it staying blind to the truth.
> 
> this is the end of the manga as we know it because kishimoto said naruto ends this year. so it is horrible just horrible to bring a character literally out of nowhere and make her final villain.  we've known the character for like 20 chapters and she literally has no connection to sasuke or naruto.  it feels greatly out of place.. people really can't shit on bleach after this because its on the same level. kishimoto admitted he didn't plan things out and it has been greatly shown in this war arc.
> 
> ...



People were saying kishi said the manga would end this year. Did I miss something when was it stated?


----------



## Kyuubi Naruto (Jun 4, 2014)

Gabe said:


> People were saying kishi said the manga would end this year. Did I miss something when was it stated?



Yeah, don't believe that. Kishi's stated that he's horrible with predicting when things will happen in his series in the past. Besides, we all remember the "Year of Kakashi" stuff he said years ago. He's always wrong with this type of thing.


----------



## ZE (Jun 4, 2014)

Madara was more foreshadowed to be Sasuke's final opponent and benchmark than the final villain. Remember when Oro said "Sasuke will surpass Madara"? That was the end of the chances of Madara being final villain. 

It all started with Kaguya, and it will all end with her.


----------



## Arya Stark (Jun 4, 2014)

This is supposed to be fun. But when author gives the "middle finger" you feel insulted.

I've recently experienced something close to this in another fandom (and it was worse, way worse btw)

But this doesn't make sense, most Madara fans really lost their lines after a while. 

a) Madara is a villain. He'll never have a satisfying ending.
b) With Obito's recent example, Kishimoto's writing limit is all open. Expecting something different for Madz is ridiculous.

However I agree that Madara really got the worst send off, this is really really offensive to readers.

Just another reminder to what to expect from this manga.


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## Closet Pervert (Jun 4, 2014)

I'd hate to see a lot of words...


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## Nic (Jun 4, 2014)

I've said this before but to me the manga should have ended with the Pain arc and have had Sasuke vs Naruto happen before it.  Pain was such a great villain (putting Nagato's redemption aside).


----------



## NarutoShion4ever (Jun 4, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> Madara was a firmly established villain with a very solid foundation, consistent and gradual character development, intimate ties to everyone and everything in the story, a presence that has permeated the plot since Part 1 (over 400 chapters now), a clear motive, significant control over all of the other villains without the slightest hint of there being more beyond him, a pro-active as opposed to a reactionary agenda, an ideology and a drive that perfectly paralleled the main hero while having a place that paralleled the anti-hero, and as a symbol he was exactly who the two heroes needed to defeat to amend their differences and bring everything full circle. He was also someone who temporarily killed off the two heroes and actually succeeded in his plan to rule the world, if only for a chapter. Despite however he may have behaved in between and whatever ridiculous outfit he wore, he was a force to be reckoned with and his act is a nigh-impossible one to follow. *Whatever you thought of him, whether you hated or loved him, his role in the manga was solid, gradual, developed, and well-established.* It made sense, and was foreseeable as far back as when Obito first claimed to be him.




I largely have to disagree with this paragraph. As a fan of Naruto's character, I painfully aware of the difference between:
 What I'd like to see in the manga;
 What the subtext of the manga contains; and
 What the main text of the manga contains.
I only mention the "what I'd like to see" part, because it subtly influences our interpretation of the subtext. Then there's the additional problem that Part 2 has *two main texts:* Naruto's point of view; and Sasuke's point of view.

The main text has Madara as a statue at the end of Part 1, and Akatsuki Leader as a living villain. The next time Madara becomes relevant is either with Tobi proclaiming himself to be Madara, or with Jiraiya talking about something being off about the Kyuubi attack (I honestly can't recall which came first, and it doesn't really matter as these happen close enough to eachother). Shortly after, Tobi is also revealed to be the real leader of Akatsuki. In short, that's at least 3 arcs where Madara is not even remotely relevant.

From the moment that the Masked Man proclaimed to be Madara, we could say that Madara is part of the manga. Except that proclaiming to be Madara while simultaneously continuing to wear the mask, is a huge hint that it's not actually Madara. In short, what actually is part of the manga from that point is the Legend/Myth of Madara (as you acknowledge later on).

You do have a huge point regarding the flashbacks about Madara. What was the point of seeing Madara as having a similar plan for peace as Jiraiya taught Naruto? The whole idea of Mugen Tsukiyomi as a plan for peace has been dumped in the trash. His plan to rule the world is silly when there's nobody left to rule over.




PikaCheeka said:


> It is utterly impossible to compare this to the Madara-Obito scenario, as Madara was hinted at as an important character even before Kakashi Gaiden and Obito pretended to be him for 200+ chapters. Yes, Madara was the shadowy figure of legend who stepped forward when the time was right, but he had an established place in the manga from as far back as Part 1 (and being directly paralleled to the anti-hero, thus creating an early connection), already had a significantly-developed story long before he emerged as an Edo, had another major character actively pretending to be him on panel for years who was able to build him up for us, etc... And even then, years passed between his arrival as an Edo Tensei and his step over Obito into power.* Madara may have been a terror of legend, but he still had a real presence throughout much of the manga that was reiterated and built upon time and again; the same can not be said for Kaguya on any level.* The idea of Kaguya suddenly being the one behind everything is entirely incomparable, and it's bizarre that anyone might claim it's similar.




I do think there is room to compare Obito and Madara. To me this is---to a certain degree---analogous to all the fans of Obito who claim that Obito was part of the manga for a very long time. Yes, the Spirit of Obito is part of the manga since the Bell Test, but that is not the same as Obito the Villain being part of the manga. Those are two different things.

Madara does have the edge on Obito in several regards. Madara was never a good guy: he fought an epic battle with Hashirama and attacked Konoha and so on. And as you are careful to describe, Madara was not only part of the story as a Terror of Legend, but also had a real presence in the form of the Masked Man pretending to be him. I would still argue though that Madara never needed to become more than a Legend or Myth from the past, but I can admit that I prefer deceased characters to stay dead.

As I mentioned above, Part 2 has two main texts: Naruto's and Sasuke's. I think that Naruto's leans more towards Obito while Sasuke's leans more towards Madara. And especially early on, Sasuke had more of a connection to Obito, than Naruto had with Madara. Not that this needed to be a problem as Kishimoto only needed to write a connection between Naruto and Madara---which he eventually did. The real problem is Kishimoto's unwillingness to drop Obito as a potential villain. The end result was obvious: Obito and Madara were fulfilling the same role and both characters suffered for having to share this role. As such, I don't really agree with you that this is a recent development.

I do agree that Madara makes a lot more sense than Obito---given a choice between the two. But Kishimoto didn't write it like that; he included them both as villains. As such, I can't agree that having Obito pretending to be Madara is as relevant as you make it. How is Obito making use of the reputation of Madara different from using a weapon or a jutsu? IMHO, Obito uses Madara's reputation as a tool and not much more. True, it's a retro-active interpretation but it's also a necessary one. Obito using Madara's reputation is main text, while Madara's presence at that time is more subtext.




PikaCheeka said:


> Kaguya has...none of that. [...]
> 
> [...]




I think the short version of this is: Kaguya has only been part of this manga for a short while and her role in the story has changed multiple times. Compare that to Madara---his statue, the Masked Man, the real Madara---who has had a consistent role in the story: that of villain. It's only Young Madara who wasn't a villain.




PikaCheeka said:


> There is also no point in waiting to "give her a chance". It is too late for that. This is the endgame. You can't drastically change things this much this late in the story. *When you are writing something for 15 years, it's necessary to weave someone as critical as the main villain into the plot for years and years, to develop them, to make us care about them, to make us aware of their potential existence.* I see many people making jokes about how this is like a Final Fantasy game, but...even the last-minute turnovers in video games are monsters/people discussed regularly throughout the story. Backtracking to tell us that she was always the juubi or, as some claim, the death god, doesn't cut it. I know some people are fine with this kind of writing but it really is not acceptable.




You're completely right about this. But while it's bad writing, I do think that Kaguya is a breath of fresh air. I honestly couldn't see the purpose of Madara at this stage. I could never see the purpose of Madara and Obito being villain side-by-side. The unwillingness to sacrifice either one of them lead to this, IMHO. Sacrificing Obito makes the most sense, but either one would have solved it.




PikaCheeka said:


> [...] Kishi has just destroyed his manga, and he destroyed it with Kaguya. There is no getting around this. Yes, I am a Madara fan. Yes, I am wildly in love with him and this broke my heart last week. And yes, I am also a literature fan. I am a fan of stories. And here is a story that I have invested five years of my life in that the author just utterly destroyed for no reason. I can honestly say that this has offended and hurt. Yes, it's his story, and yes, he can do what he wants, but there comes a point when a story becomes so big that it belongs to more than just you. All authors know this. It's the nature of writing. Kishi doesn?t seem to care though. *Even if this had nothing to do with my favorite character being destroyed, I?d be utterly baffled at this sudden turn of events and the author?s behavior and treatment of his own creation.* Maybe this is just the casual author in my speaking, but it?s utterly surreal.
> 
> He abruptly turned the manga around in the end game and it?s rapidly becoming some bizarre ghost-family space-odyssey where the main themes of the story that have been with us since the Land of Waves are no longer relevant and where established characters that he doesn?t know how to handle anymore are literally just erased.
> 
> *I feel betrayed by Kishimoto here, as we all should, regardless of our character fandoms, regardless of who we root for or who we hate, because in the end, we are all fans of Naruto, and the manga we know and love is gone forever.*




I honestly feel for you, because it's the same thing the fans of Naruto's character went through years ago---halfway through Part 2 when it didn't feel like Naruto's story anymore.

And I understand the need to hold onto a certain level of quality. I do. But Kishimoto made it useless to try, so I always just hoped for the best and expected the worst. It's also why my perspective switched from being a reader to understanding what the author was trying to do (even if that lead to questioning the decision to have Obito and Madara as a pair of villains).

I've suspected for a while now that Kishimoto is in clean-up mode: trying to tie every lost plot thread up nice and tight. Why else would Kaguya be revealed to have the Byakugan? Why else are Indra and Ashura brought into the story to explain Naruto's and Sasuke's behaviour for a large part of Part 2?

So when I think about it a little bit, I believe that the remaining part of Madara's plot has simply been merged into Kaguya's plot. It explains why Madara is dropped and why Kaguya is retconned. And it might simply have been done as part of a ratings problem (I wouldn't know, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least).


----------



## King Scoop (Jun 4, 2014)

The manga has been going on for 15 years now. This has given Kishi a lot of time to plan, throw out, and come up with new ideas. The story as it is now is nothing like he originally planned, but that's natural and it's pretty much impossible for it not to be.

The deeper he goes into everyone's backstory and the history of the Narutoverse. The more new things and people are introduced that all have to be explained. I'm sure Kishi didn't have Madara as the FV from the very beginning. But got to a certain point, and decided to tell more about that story. Then he decided he wanted to tell about the Uchiha's and Senju's history, and he came up with Hagoromo and Kaguya.

It's a long running fictional story. Kishi sometimes come up with new ideas and decides to add them. He doesn't limit himself to just the ideas he came up with 10+ years ago. He just goes along with the flow of the story.


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## Milliardo (Jun 4, 2014)

shintebukuro said:


> The manga is not ending this year. I'm sorry, but that's a retarded idea.We have yet to learn anything about Kaguya, or Sasuke's Rinnegan ability, or what Hagoromo actually gave him and Naruto, and then we have Hamura who was created and named because he will have a part to play as well...And you think _all_ this info will be delivered on, _all_ the fights taken care of, _all_ the closure given to everyone, and then the aftermath and epilogue all written, within 20ish chapters?When Guy using the 8th gate took fuckin four chapters in itself?Kaguya is not the final villain, and the manga is not even NEAR close to done. I'm sorry things didn't work out the way you had envisioned.


its a retarded idea? well kishi said it so you must think hes retarded then right? we might actually agree on something.

what never ceases to amaze me is all the stupid shit you add on to say the manga has to keep going like your afraid of it ending. like orochimaru for example, you imply he needs like an arcs time of closer...  now with sasuke's rennigan, boy it sure is going to take a lot of chapters for that huh? 

the other thing is your little dr. phil act you like to play at which is bullshit btw.  things didn't work out my way? lol i love this garbage you spill shin i really do. like i have a little notebook in my room and i jot down all these little fantasies for the naruto giggling to myself hoping they come true. then i wimper in a corner when they don't come true clutching my notebook bobbing and weaving back and forth crying like a baby. is this what you actually believe? do you seriously believe that all people are just butt hurt and that its never about poor writing?? wow, do you really love kishi's manga that much? thats incredible to me...

i'm sorry you are that absorbed into this shit to actually believe that. 



saduj said:


> Or maybe you should have realized you are reading a comic book for small children, seriously, imagine a grown man throwing a tantrum because the muppets has a plot line he doesnt like, thats what you guys look like.


 i'll never understand this excuse. like if its written for younger people or children then it doesn't have to have a coherent storyline all rules of literature can be thrown out the window. so if i go see a super hero movie or read a comic book i can't complain because it was created for children more so than adults so if its trash thats ok because all children's stories are shit and never make sense with poor writing? how does that make sense to you? because from where i'm standing that makes no sense at all. please do explain that in detail for me.

as for the tantrum part i can tell you right now i'm not mad. i've given up on this manga a long time ago bro. i come here because i enjoy reading post talking of how bad this manga has gotten. i'll also enjoy seeing people actually try to defend this shit. its pretty entertaining to me. whats really funny is when people who were originally defending it like you realise just how shit the manga is and then they make threads describing how bad off it is in which case new people arise who just join the site take their place and start arguing with those people who originally were defending the manga too. its an hilarious cycle. that is why i stick around friend.


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## Tony Lou (Jun 4, 2014)

Lelouch71 said:


> The manga went to hell after Pain/Nagato died for me. Madara was a crappy and very boring villain. There was nothing interesting about him. He was just some bland delusional megalomaniac. Nagato and even Obito had better writing than him. In fact, I still think the manga should had stuck with Nagato as the mastermind. Kaguya if nothing else bring something new to the table.



I believe there's a great deal of difference between quality and new.

Especially a last minute change with no solid build up.


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## Aazadan (Jun 4, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> I'm not really expecting a reason anymore. She is entirely superfluous.



The entire point to Kaguya's character seems to be that she's just a stereotypical evil for the sake of it villain.  One of Kishi's good traits in writing is that no one sees themselves as evil, they all see what they're doing as right and that the forces attempting to stop them are evil.

In the Madara battle there were basically three forces
Madara - Wants to bring peace to the world with Infinite Tsukiyomi.  It would stop new people from being born but all people currently in the world would get to experience an eternity of their ideal world.

Naruto - Wants to bring peace to the world through understanding and cooperation.

Sasuke - Wants to change the ninja system so that the strong no longer exploit the weak by destroying all the existing power structures.

The problem Kishi had was that Madara who is being portrayed as the villain had the best plan of all three.  This wouldn't actually be a bad thing but Kishi tried it once before with Nagato and semi blew it.  I bet the editors stepped in here and forced a change.  Which is why IT is now evil and this battle isn't about conflicting just ideals but rather about simple good and evil.


----------



## Zerst?ren (Jun 4, 2014)

Seriously people, we got so much build up of Madara for Kaguya to just steal his place? 

Be serious, this is just anti-Madara tards talking. Madara, like him or not, is a quality villain. At least half of the most awesome parts of the manga involved him.
While Kaguya is cool design whise, and the fact that the most powerful entity ever was a woman, she lacks in some "manga aspects" as I like to call them: she was mentioned some chapters ago like a princess that wanted to end war, then as a princess who wanted to forcefuly end war and then as a paralel between her world and Madara's goal. 

That's it. She's a paralell. A cool looking one, super interesting, but not FV quality.


----------



## SLB (Jun 4, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> You know, Madara would never have been my first choice for main/final villain. Obito definitely not. Yet they, Orochimaru, Deva Pain, Itachi, Sasuke or Kabuto would have been at least suitable for final villain for one reason: they had a personal relationship with the cast at large. They were established characters years in the making, the dynamics they had with characters we did care about made stand out too. When they did something evil it actually felt something was at stake, that even if you disliked them you were interested in how at least they would fail. I do not feel that with Kaguya, because she was very recently shoehorned in. She has no buildup, and for Kishi to try and do that now is just pathetic, so I understand your disappointment.
> 
> This has been Kishi's thing for a while though, to build up a villain and then just completely drop the ball. Look at how Akatsuki's potential was wasted.
> 
> I was looking forward to Madara's death as a signal to the end of this arc, not to drag it out even further. I think that's one of the worst things about it, the arc was abysmal as it is, and Kishi just seemed to want to keep digging the trench with this Kaguya stuff.



i think he's outright disposed of the idea of foreshadowing and building core mechanics within his story. kaguya doesn't even make sense at the conceptual stage of the writing process.

a character with no visible connection to the main cast or even the main character, and the presence of every metaphysical deity-type yahoo we've seen for decades now. 

it's really fucking intriguing to see how kishi even thought this one up. i always assumed that a writer would have his/her storyboard right beside specific plot points trying to see what may match up. put kaguya against any of the original plot points of this series and it still doesn't add up. 

i'm not a fan of most of these uchihas, not even a little... and the part of me that took the cheap thrill of seeing something so bizarre unfold is finally gone. i can see this for what it is... i can't even believe i'm saying this, but madara truly deserved better.


----------



## MisterJB (Jun 4, 2014)

You make a very good point.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 4, 2014)

BlazingInferno said:


> Wow...some people need some major help if they act like that over fictional stuff. I would say this is even worse than people marrying digital people.



How many people have even done something like that? It sure doesn't seem rampant here. It's a non-issue, virtually.


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## SLB (Jun 4, 2014)

Axl Low said:


> the last well written arc was the rescue arc in the end on part 1



i disagree. the zombies arc and pain saga had some solid execution from kishimoto. should we ignore nagato's pitiful dispatching, the arc was actually quite well done for a manslaughter type of thing. 

part 2 had its fair share of gems.


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## Tony Lou (Jun 4, 2014)

Kyuubi Naruto said:


> Nope.
> 
> Madara was never the FV. Sure, people thought that but I never did. That's why these situations happen and people can't get a grip.
> 
> ...



None of this addresses the thread's focal point.

It's common knowledge that as far as shounen goes, power levels often are the only requirement for a legitimate main villain, in a DBZ kind of way.

But PikaCheeka's essay doesn't revolve around that aspect. The issue here is build up, development, planning.

Regarding the benchmark argument, a single sentence comparing Sasuke's power to Madara's hardly could establish an actual connection between the two characters.

The War ended with Obito's defeat and the conclusion of the Alliance's role. Madara's involvement in the story goes beyond that.

Orochimaru, Pain and Nagato had different circumstances. 

Orochimaru's goal was to obtain the Sharingan by possessing Sasuke and extend the life span needed to obtain knowledge. He obviously was never going to get his hands on that. 

Pain was never a main villain. He was created to be Naruto's opponent and nothing else. 

Obito was revealed to be a reluctant subordinate rather than the mastermind. No one could ever feel fully confident that he was the FV.
And more importantly, the villain that followed each of them was a legitimate, developed, long existing character.

Kaguya isn't 'different'. She is the princess who ate the God fruit to bring peace and became a ruthless ruler instead. And now she's returned to resume what was doing before. Her character's freshness only goes as far as name and design. 

The corrupted pacifist we've seen before but with much less depth.

Concerning fandom behavior, I agree with Pika. I don't get this notion that a story's readers should apologize for being invested. That's part of the point.

And while you still repeat this speech in the end of each post you are anything but passionate about this. No less than the louder folks over here.


----------



## Rosi (Jun 4, 2014)

What happened with Madara was pretty bad, yeah, but the problem is, you people(his fans) act as if he were some special snowflake. He was not. Remember what happened with Kabuto? It was as bad, if not worse. And I don't remember anyone writing such long essays about what an asshole Kishi is and how he ruined an important villain.

This manga has jumped the shark a very long time ago, I don't understand why would you expect anything different happen to Madara. Not only he is a character in Naruto manga, he is a _villain_ character in a Naruto manga. And he isn't special.


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## eluna (Jun 4, 2014)

Great post Pika I read at all and have to agree with your point,Kishi just reach the low point of writting after this,I don't love Mada but I have admit was kinda sucks see him go like that,I wonder why I still attached to this manga


----------



## Summers (Jun 4, 2014)

ChickenPotPie said:


> To play devil's advocate, is coming out of nowhere necessarily a bad thing?  As opposed to Madara and Tobito, which pretty much anyone with a brain saw coming many chapters ahead of their reveal?



While I did feel kinda empty when she popped up, after a while I was a bit hopeful because Madara was boring as hell. Now im interested in what she will do. Though if she turns out to be an emotionless villain who then turns into a madwomen the closer she gets to her plans succeeding or failing then this will be a big fail.


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## BijuuZord (Jun 4, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> How many people have even done something like that? It sure doesn't seem rampant here. It's a non-issue, virtually.





I still remember that happened. And while it may not be prevalent, even once is too much. Can you imagine the guilt that would loom over Kishi knowing his fictitious story ended the life of a kid?

I think that's why Kishi doesn't kill off major charactors anymore either, just side ones with not much panel time like Shikaku, Ao, Neji etc. Regardless, the threat is always real. Take these pairing wars. No matter which one happens, it's gonna be hell for the losers and I expect a ton more suicide threats.

OT: I never liked Madara. He's as stereotypical and generic as villains come in this genre. Claimed to want peace and he's enslaving the world for the betterment of everyone as a savior, but he relishes killing people and tearing jugulars and shit. Kaguya may not exactly be well-established like Nagato, Obito, or Orochimaru, but she's a much needed break from Madara. I'm just glad he's out of the picture, despite how unceremonious his exit was.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 4, 2014)

Summers said:


> While I did feel kinda empty when she popped up, after a while I was a bit hopeful because Madara was boring as hell. Now im interested in what she will do. Though if she turns out to be an emotionless villain who then turns into a madwomen the closer she gets to her plans succeeding or failing then this will be a big fail.



I really don't see what would make Kaguya more compelling. I'll admit things were dragging on with Madara, but that is exactly why he should've been beaten by the heroes as the primary antagonistic force of this series. Because it would finally mark the end of this arc. Kaguya only drags it out further, and she's far less established. She's more of the same that came with Sage Madara. I almost forgot this started out as a *war*; but that's how bad things have gotten.


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## gaiver (Jun 4, 2014)

manga stopped being good long before madara was introduced, and it's the trickle down villian, bigger bad puppet reveal. easily foreseen by those not clouded by their own bias.
if you don't like it, don't buy the manga..


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## BlazingInferno (Jun 4, 2014)

BijuuZord said:


> I still remember that happened. And while it may not be prevalent, even once is too much. Can you imagine the guilt that would loom over Kishi knowing his fictitious story ended the life of a kid?
> 
> I think that's why Kishi doesn't kill off major charactors anymore either, just side ones with not much panel time like Shikaku, Ao, Neji etc. Regardless, the threat is always real. Take these pairing wars. No matter which one happens, it's gonna be hell for the losers and I expect a ton more suicide threats.



I highly doubt Kishi stopped just because a teenager killed himself over Itachi's death. And shit, this is the most filled thread in this section.



gaiver said:


> *manga stopped being good long before madara was introduced*, and it's the trickle down villian, bigger bad puppet reveal. easily foreseen by those not clouded by their own bias.
> *if you don't like it, don't buy the manga*..



You should take your own advice if you don't think it's good anymore


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## spiritmight (Jun 4, 2014)

Didn't even bother to read the entirety of the OP so you can go ahead and neg me for that, but I'm pretty sure it went something like

Madara is the most developed character

It's shit writing to have Kaguya take over Madara

Madara has all of these connections to the characters

Kaguya possess no such connections

Madara is the villain messiah, foreshadowed since part 1

Kaguya was introduced like last year

I did notice the term "literary criticism" in my skimming.

I'll just go ahead and laugh. I might agree with this OP had anyone else posted it. Literary criticism?  A true champion of objective literary criticism wouldn't imply that they've committed suicide suicide because their favorite character was nerfed.

A literary critic wouldn't make multiple threads complaining about the course of this shittily written manga every time it looks like the Mary-Sue villain might lose the upper hand. A particularly notable one was when Madara and Obito lost their connection to the Juubi. The thread was titled something like "what the hell is supposed to happen now?" I'd look it up but I don't really care to support my arguments with evidence. 

I'm not really a member of any fandom, aside from maybe Sasuke's. But a person who professes to engage in intelligent literary criticism wouldn't shit all over another person's fan-favorite, and then use the word "haters" when someone else does the same. Wouldn't call Naruto fans out for grasping at reasons to like the character, and then make a thread detailing why Madara has somehow more connections to Naruto instead of Sasuke, with the weakest possible proof. Grasping indeed.

Madara Uchiha, aside from Kaguya herself, is the poster-child of Deus Ex Machina. The guy's fanbase has repeatedly shown that they give two shits about the development of the plot, as long as Madara gets to display new feats and make more long-winded, hypocritical speeches.

Well, it's over. Madara was taken out. He swelled up like a balloon and had his body hijacked.

And no, Kaguya is not the final villain/conflict. It's Sasuke. I'm not saying this as a Sasuke fan. Kishimoto has literally said as much at least twice. Regardless, if you can't see how Kaguya might be thematically relevant, then whatever.


One final thing: Kishimoto is not writing the manga according to the standards of adults who live on the other side of the planet and post on message boards. He does not write the manga for you. He writes the manga for 12-year-old Japanese kids--that's been his audience for ten years. He gives absolutely no fucks about the opinions of anyone here. It's not like he gets paid when we read it, anyway 


*TL;DR*: You mad, bro. You mad.


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## Euraj (Jun 4, 2014)

Rosi said:


> What happened with Madara was pretty bad, yeah, but the problem is, you people(his fans) act as if he were some special snowflake. He was not. Remember what happened with Kabuto? It was as bad, if not worse. And I don't remember anyone writing such long essays about what an asshole Kishi is and how he ruined an important villain.
> 
> This manga has jumped the shark a very long time ago, I don't understand why would you expect anything different happen to Madara. Not only he is a character in Naruto manga, he is a _villain_ character in a Naruto manga. And he isn't special.


I can think of a handful of upset people that went on long diatribes when Kabuto got beat by his own summon, and another handful that kicked them while they were down like folks are doing now with Madara's enthusiasts. 

Honestly though. If there was going to be an anomaly, Madara would have been the one, at least from the perspective we had between Obito's death and Naruto's convo with the Sage. It wasn't like Kabuto, Pain, and Obito where you clearly see there was someone behind them. I thought it would be Mads too, until I saw Kaguya's face superimposed over the planet, and that should have been the sign to all the supporters of the Madara/FV theory that it probably wasn't going to happen.


----------



## CuteJuubi (Jun 4, 2014)

Jeαnne said:


> one way to save this twist is if Kaguya is actually some kind of representation of the darkness and responsible for the whole curse of hatred going on through all generations.
> 
> when kishi made black zetsu being her will i thought of this, it would be almost as if her will has been contaminating specially uchihas, explaining the whole fall into darkness stuff.
> 
> she could use the darkness in the uchiha's hearts to "hijack" them(explaining also why they start to develop the sharingan through traumatic experiences), in the same way that the frog explained how kyuubi used the darkness in his heart to take him over.



I think this is most likely going to be the case.


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

I for one am glad all this reality is hell crap from Madara is over.


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## Gilgamesh (Jun 4, 2014)

People should have learned by now just to shut their brains off and enjoy the ride

At this point reading Naruto for the plot is like playing GTA for the plot


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## Hydro Spiral (Jun 4, 2014)

Rosi said:


> What happened with Madara was pretty bad, yeah, but the problem is, you people(his fans) act as if he were some special snowflake. He was not. Remember what happened with Kabuto? It was as bad, if not worse. And I don't remember anyone writing such long essays about what an asshole Kishi is and how he ruined an important villain.
> 
> This manga has jumped the shark a very long time ago, I don't understand why would you expect anything different happen to Madara. Not only he is a character in Naruto manga, he is a _villain_ character in a Naruto manga. And he isn't special.



I'm not that great a fan, but I do think Madara _was_ sort of special in the way of villains. For years we've heard stuff like _"If its Madara, anything is possible"_, or _"His name alone is power." _and similar dialogue from characters, basically saying that he is not be trifled with. Even though he was thought to be long dead. It really wasn't the same as other villains, because that legacy was known and feared across several generations. Reaching back into the Founding Era of the Ninjas, and having a major effect on characters young & old, living or dead.

Plus, after Obito he was the only known character left to fight until like..Last week. Bar Naruto VS Sasuke.

Honestly, I think its pretty natural for people to expect something different out of him.


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## Tony Lou (Jun 4, 2014)

Hydro Spiral said:


> I'm not that great a fan, but Madara _was_ sort of special in the way of villains. For years we've heard stuff like _"If its Madara, anything is possible"_, or _"His name alone is power." _and similar dialogue from characters, basically saying that he is not be trifled with. Even though he was supposed to be long dead. It really wasn't the same as other villains, because that legacy was known and feared across several generations. Reaching back into the Founding Era of the Ninjas, and having a major effect on characters young & old, living or dead.
> 
> Plus, he was the only guy left to fight until like..Last week. Bar Naruto VS Sasuke.
> 
> I think its pretty natural for people to expect something different out of him tbh.


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## T-Bag (Jun 4, 2014)

i think everyone deep inside knows this kind of writing is abysmally hazardous, but they disagree for the sake of appearances here on NF lol.

Anyway Pika, Madara was an entertaining character while he lasted


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## Nep Nep (Jun 4, 2014)

My theory atm is that she wants to destroy the Juubi, maybe even destroy chakra. Who knows, maybe she felt gaining chakra ruined her life or she also hates how it's being used. 

Hagaromo and Hamaru however were like Naruto and wanted to resolve things in a more peaceful manner so they fought and won. 

I'd be willing to bet actually that her motives are similar to Sasuke's, destruction for purification except she's attacking the Juubi and needs more power than Sasuke would need for the Bijuu. 

That's just the vibe I'm getting anyways and it could set up the inevitable ideological clash that will happen between Naruto and Sasuke since Sasuke will also want to destroy as many thing as he can that have to do with the traditional shinobi life style. 

Naruto and Obito match up but Sasuke matches up to Madara mostly because they're both Uchiha and both Indra incarnations with similar chakra. 

I'm thinking that maybe Kaguya matches up much better with Sasuke in goals, maybe that's why Kishi killed Madara off so fast, I don't know. 

I agree that it's not yet well founded BUT give it a few chapters and I think that he could make things make more sense.


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## Sieves (Jun 4, 2014)

I agree with Hydro. Madara is special. We've been hearing about him and his villainy for years before he even appeared. Obito even masqueraded as him. And when he was introduced he was as fearsome as everybody expected. He soloed the alliance and brought even Naruto and Sasuke to their knees, pre juubi. I feel like its rare for a villain to actually live up to the hype, which is why his defeat was so unexpected and shocking, especially for his fans.


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## Talis (Jun 4, 2014)

Madara's character was destroyed the moment he transformed into SO6P, Kishi handled both Madara and Obito in a terrifying way, all his work on these characters for over years have been destroyed in a few chapters.


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## BijuuZord (Jun 4, 2014)

I'm still just glad Madara is gone.


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## T-Bag (Jun 4, 2014)

BijuuZord said:


> I'm still just glad Madara is gone.



you find kaguya more interesting, yeah?


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## Stan Lee (Jun 4, 2014)

At least he completed the MEP and wasn't TnJ. Seriously, I don't think we've seen the last of him but he's no longer the main antagonist. Its Kaguya and probably whoever she is going to war with, at the moment.


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## Mizura (Jun 4, 2014)

Interesting read. The only problem is that Kishimoto has already firmly established that he likes to shit on his characters.

Off-topic: if you're looking for new villains to read about, may I suggest Kubera? The author actually treats them like protagonists with their own lives and goals, not something to be proven wrong by the main character. The villains of Kubera are often better written than the protagonists. I can list a dozen different sides to Gandharva.


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## Krippy (Jun 4, 2014)

Madara shouldn't be dead, but I sure hope obito is. 

Watch nardo revive him with his voodoo ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) healing powers


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## dungsi27 (Jun 4, 2014)

The main problem with Kaguya is that shes not built into the story shes thrown into it.

Its almost as if we are being treated with a filler now, and that is bad.

Madara is a character that was carefully planned and built into the story. His presence and influence can be felt almost throughout part 2, that is why the battle against him feels relevant & important to the story.

But with Kaguya,I have to say again that her story feels almost like a filler. It just doesnt feel as much relevant or as all important to the storyline. She was just mentioned, then did some stuff, and then will be killed in a couple of chapters. 

Will she have a cool backstory?Maybe. Does she possess some interesting ideology? Probably. Will her fightbe epic? Most likely. (at least in term of sheer scale, we are guaranteed to get some real treatment).

But a filler, no matter how epic it is, is a filler none the less.

It can be great. But does it matter that much to the main storyline? Nah!


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

T-Bag said:


> you find kaguya more interesting, yeah?



Infinitely more yes.


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## Stan Lee (Jun 4, 2014)

dungsi27 said:


> The main problem with Kaguya is that shes not built into the story shes thrown into it.
> 
> Its almost as if we are being treated with a filler now, and that is bad.
> 
> ...



You still haven't realized that Kaguya is the juubi? This chapter made it even more obvious. I don't think something like that is filler.


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## dungsi27 (Jun 4, 2014)

Zero Requiem said:


> You still haven't realized that Kaguya is the juubi? This chapter made it even more obvious. I don't think something like that is filler.



Either Hagoromo is the biggest lier of all time,or that theory is completely bullsh*t.

Yes I have heard of this theory many times before.


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## Tony Lou (Jun 4, 2014)

Zero Requiem said:


> You still haven't realized that Kaguya is the juubi? This chapter made it even more obvious. I don't think something like that is filler.



Kaguya obtained her powers from eating the God tree's fruit.

You can't reverse the order.


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## Stan Lee (Jun 4, 2014)

We just saw the juubi turn into Kaguya, dude.


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## dungsi27 (Jun 4, 2014)

Zero Requiem said:


> We just saw the juubi turn into Kaguya, dude.



...Assuming that Black Zetsu, which is Kaguyas will, is irrelevant.


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## Tony Lou (Jun 4, 2014)

We saw Madara 'turn' into Kaguya.

The most likely answer is that she merged with the Juubi in order to return later on, it's not really complicated.


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## Stan Lee (Jun 4, 2014)

dungsi27 said:


> ...Assuming that Black Zetsu, which is Kaguyas will, is irrelevant.





Luiz said:


> We saw Madara 'turn' into Kaguya.
> 
> The most likely answer is that she merged with the Juubi in order to return later on, it's not really complicated.



Kaguya had control over the god tree before like a juubi jin. Why is that?


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## Invictus-Kun (Jun 4, 2014)

So Kaguya, Madara, the Juubi are one?


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## dungsi27 (Jun 4, 2014)

Zero Requiem said:


> Kaguya had control over the god tree before like a juubi jin. Why is that?



Cant explain it yet,but definitely cannot be explained that way


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## celebrei (Jun 4, 2014)

If anyone deserved to be the FV it's Kaguya because she started all this mess.


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## Sanity Lost (Jun 4, 2014)

First I am going to admit that I only read the OP and first page of comments, so if this has already been covered, sorry. 

I can't say I am enthused by the sudden introduction of Kaguya. It did come from no where- she doesn't seem to have any direct connections to the characters (grandmother of the main two characters' pre-reincarnated selves which is also a recent reveal is a bit of a stretch). She does seem shoe horned into the story.

However, though I am not enthused by the idea of her, I am willing to wait and see what comes of this. There were other things I wasn't particularly excited about that I found I didn't really mind once it was all said and done (Itachi being "good" comes to mind). 

As a side note: Other than his awkward reason for villianhood, theoretically Obito could have been a great villain. He was introduced comparatively early in the series. He had strong ties to 3 of the 4 original main characters (Kakashi's teammate, Naruto's parallel, Sasuke's family).  Madara also wasn't a horrible idea for a big bad at first either. Traces of him in part one and sprinkled through out part two. Plus his personality when he showed up as an edo was pretty great.

I don't actually have any expectations when it comes to this manga. I will not be surprised if after Kaguya's father, grandfather, greatgrandmother's stepsister, and Guy's long lost son make an appearance as the big bad Kishi goes for Sasuke having even more crazy swings in character and butchers (what was once but no longer, the obvious choice of )making him the final villain.


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## Weapon (Jun 5, 2014)

@ Above.

Obito would of always been a far superior Final Villain compared to Madara if given the chance.


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## celebrei (Jun 5, 2014)

Zyrax said:


> Please explain to me how Kaguya is a bland villain yet you are a adara fangirl who is pretty much the epitom of Generic take over da WOoooorld villain



Reason: Double Standards


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## dungsi27 (Jun 5, 2014)

celebrei said:


> If anyone deserved to be the FV it's Kaguya because she started all this mess.



She would make a great villain,yes, if Kishi had spent more time developing her more


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## celebrei (Jun 5, 2014)

dungsi27 said:


> She would make a great villain,yes, if Kishi had spent more time developing her more



She has already been introduced dozens and dozens of chapters ago, this, right now, is where Kishi starts to fully flesh out her character. 

The Madara fandom however, will not give her a chance, or should I say, will not give _anyone_ a chance to be FV as long as it isn't Madara.


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## Invictus-Kun (Jun 5, 2014)

Kaguya is not the FV


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## Klue (Jun 5, 2014)

celebrei said:


> She has already been introduced dozens and dozens of chapters ago, this, right now, is where Kishi starts to fully flesh out her character.
> 
> The Madara fandom however, will not give her a chance, or should I say, will not give _anyone_ a chance to be FV as long as it isn't Madara.



She usurped him before his story reached its conclusion. A character *confirmed* for villainy 8 chapters ago. Her name first appeared 33 chapters ago.

33. That's less than a year's time. The major villain of the entire story was first mentioned 33 chapters ago.

Unless Kishi plans to further extend his story beyond a final contest between the two rivals, this is completely unnecessary. Even then, kill Madara off properly, at least, damn.

I have waited 100s of chapters to see Naruto/Sasuke take him down. Five or six years.

WTF is this?


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## dungsi27 (Jun 5, 2014)

celebrei said:


> She has already been introduced dozens and dozens of chapters ago, this, right now, is where Kishi starts to fully flesh out her character.


This is the standard acceptable for a secondary villain, not *the final* villain.


celebrei said:


> The Madara fandom however, will not give her a chance, or should I say, will not give _anyone_ a chance to be FV as long as it isn't Madara.



In case youre misunderstanding I am in no way a fan of Madara.I just hates bullsh*t like this.


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## StickaStick (Jun 5, 2014)

*Preface*: I'm actually disappointed Mads' reign as Central Villain is abruptly over because he was finally starting to entertain me as a quality villain. As someone who legitimately thinks Mads is a poorly written character, full of contradictions, I'm surprised more ppl didn't get behind the momentum he was building up recently. His reveal, even if most suspected as much, to Obito about his involvement in Rin's demise was a huge boost for his villain cred and then he topped it off by commencing MT and having some pretty good facial expressions to exemplify just how delusional he was. Shit was getting good IMO and I think certain readers with certain prejudices choose to overlook that. But what else is new.

With that said... this woe-is-me mentality coming from Mads' fans is absolutely hilarious and reminds why I care little for his fanbase. Just sayin'. Characters (namely villains) have been trolled much worse than what has happened to Mads. Nothing I expect will ever trump the gross manner in which Oro, Part I's central villain, was served up as a hot pile of garbage to Sauske; and furthermore the next time we see his face in flesh he's being sucked into Itachi's jar. This is the same guy who largely ran shit in Part I and his character COULD NEVER RECOVER. I wasn't around these forums at the time but when these two singular events happened I can't imagine the shit Oro's fans went through. Pitiful. 

Then you have Nagato, who withdrew his convictions because of a FUCKING BOOK written by his sensi WHO HE KILLED. To those who say it wasn't as bad as it seems, lol yes it was. Someone made this point to me and I went and re-read the whole thing in context and it was _worse _than I remembered. Move forward and Nagato is brought back as an Edo (a good guy at this point, granted) and isn't allowed to show off his true potential because he's being mind controlled and he subsequently gets served up on a silver platter to Itachi in embarrassing fashion. Next, you have Kabuto and Obito. The former gets beat by possibly the most non-nonsensical jutsu in the manga--Izanami--after out-dueling Sasuke and Itachi and ends up getting patted on the frickin head. The latter gets beat by all intents and purposes 'friendship' after winding up in Naruto's dreamworld after pushing the Alliance's shit up their asses for virtually the entire fight preceding Obito's defeat. I also feel compelled to add that this little nugget is often lost on the OP of this thread who often proclaims that without asspulls and 'bad-writing' Mads would already have won the manga by now--like that doesn't apply to several villains. Again, just sayin'.

How many fandoms do you think would trade their fave's impact and relevance for Mads' in a heartbeat? Mads's got further than any other 'villain' to this point and now we're supposed to throw a pity party for him and his supporters when it's not even warranted as I've outline above (and below)? Uhh...  Oro fans are rolling over in their graves.

Mads is only one in a long list of villains who have been royally trolled by yours truly Masashi Kishimoto. And before anyone claims that the stakes where higher with Mads and he was usurped by a relatively unknown entity (in this case Kaguya), consider this. No, the stakes are not any higher than they where for any other villain. Nagato/Pain could have been the end-game (many feel he should have) and Obito or even Kabuto could have been the end-game. As it turns out, Pain is superseded by a relativity unknown entity in the masked man who has virtually no development other than having Mads attached to his name; and Obito was superseded by Mads who arrived in one the scene not long before Obito's reveal.

To those sitting here and saying that it was necessary that Mads' supersede Obtio because of his stature are deluding themselves. The scenario that Kishi put into place with Obito being the masked man and Mads' entering the scene via ET could have played out several ways and some of them do not involve Mads superseding Obito. Fuck, you could have had either Kabuto or Oro stepping into the central villain role instead of Mads and it would have made sense given their stature and equity in the story; but somehow I don't believe that is even a momentary consideration for Mads' supporters. However, Mads is the direction that Kishi went and that is fine. But pls stop pretending that Mads wasn't introduced this arc and think that Kishi didn't also write him into the story along the way. It's revisionist history to suggest that Mads' was weaved intricately in-and-out of the story when in fact he got some dap from the Kyuubi early on in Part II and wasn't brought up again for a lengthy period.

Ultimately, I think a wait-and-see approach is warranted with how Kishi handles Kaguya's integrality into the story. The fact of the matter is that there are missing pieces to the whole puzzle--such as Mads' survival at the VOTE--where Kaguya's assertion into the story can shed light on. Btw, the idea that she wasn't 'needed' to answer these lingering questions when other characters could have is beyond absurd. Nagato/Pain could have answered his own questions. Obito could have answered his own questions (e.g. Mads taught me; Mads does not actually need to be an integral part for this). Etc etc. Why Mads is necessarily where the buck should stop in this regard is not backed up by anything tangible so pls kill this lame assertion. Kaguya is in fact largely an unknown entity who Kishi had chosen to fill this role and who knows, maybe there is more to it than meets the eye Let's also not forget that she serves a function that Mads could possibly not--bringing all things ' Naruto' full-circle and putting a nice little bow on it. Mads may have been Jesus but Kaguya is GOD and could (re:will) bring a more holistic perspective to the story, where Mads as construed could not . 

Unfortunately, many readers I expect have been prejudiced to the point where no matter how well or not Kaguya is written they will wright her off regardless. Try not to be that guy/gal and at least give it a chance.


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## T-Bag (Jun 5, 2014)

Weapon said:


> @ Above.
> 
> Obito would of always been a far superior Final Villain compared to Madara if given the chance.



no way, as naruto put it "you are obito!" it just doesn't suit him to be madara. he's young, inexperienced, and didn't set the moons eye plan into motion. 
final villain spot was originally meant for Madara, this was apparent until kishimoto decided to randomly throw kaguya in there


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## Kyuubi Naruto (Jun 5, 2014)

Format brought up an interesting point. 

Oro's trolling as a character was far worse than what happened to Madara here. Mind you, Oro was the first real main villain of the series who was seen as the "big bad". Most of part 1 was about Oro and even part 2, a good amount of it had him as being the major guy. Even if Akatsuki was looming, Oro was the one who had a hold as being the FV back then. I remember the theories and everything. Anyway, the moment Sasuke literally took down Oro while he was on his deathbed? Then Itachi took care of him? You guys have no idea how the landscape changed. That was insane compared to how it is these days because that was the first major time a villain was shown up like that. Sure, Madara was put down but it happened to Oro first and foremost, that was the first taste of Kishimoto switching villains on it at the drop of a dime. Orochimaru was "the bad guy" of the series. Even when Itachi damaged him, everyone always assumed Oro would come back but no, he was used to show Sasuke and Itachi's strength. 

Then Pain? I mean really, then Pain? By the time it happened to Pain/Nagato most people realized it would be a continuous thing at that point. If it happened to "big bad Orochimaru" and "the Akatsuki Leader Pain" then we all knew every single person from Obito to anyone who came after would eventually fall into place who's not Sasuke. Pain was the leader of the organization who controlled the series, Akatsuki as a whole was on a completely different level and it happened to him? 

The backlash from most Madara fans that I'm seeing appears to be from those who assumed he was immune to it, that he was "special" and those who apparently weren't with us when it happened to other villains. No matter how deep Madara's had a hold on the story, back in the day, Orochimaru and Pain's relevancy were at a far higher level especially given the details of the manga weren't as deep as they are now. This isn't even about if it's "right" but more about the fact that it's happened before, it obviously would happen again and the fact people are this upset when they should have been upset when it happened to Oro, Pain and Obito. 

It seems most people just haven't come to grips that Kishimoto likes doing this. Posters wouldn't last in the golden days when Orochimaru of all people was hit with the Troll Hammer. I can't even tell you how bad it was. 

Madara's just not an exception to any rule. Lighten up.


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## Weapon (Jun 5, 2014)

T-Bag said:


> no way, as naruto put it "you are obito!" it just doesn't suit him to be madara. he's young, inexperienced, and didn't set the moons eye plan into motion.
> final villain spot was originally meant for Madara, this was apparent until kishimoto decided to randomly throw kaguya in there



To Naruto compared with Madara then definitely yes, he would of been the perfect final villain of the series. If we didn't go into these more extreme details about the world and had it end at Obito he would of been a more important villain not only to Naruto but the generation that the series is revolved around. 

Obito killed Naruto's parents, invaded Konoha which is what led to Naruto's tough upbringing and started this war. 

Although I do think Madara could of taken it in the strongest opposing villain scenario, I always knew the series was going to end with Sasuke any ways. Not to mention I could never imagine Naruto ending without defeating and ending on someone from his own time Sasuke and/or Orochimaru.






Kyuubi Naruto said:


> The backlash from most Madara fans that I'm seeing appears to be from those who assumed he was immune to it, that he was "special" and those who apparently weren't with us when it happened to other villains. No matter how deep Madara's had a hold on the story, back in the day, Orochimaru and Pain's relevancy were at a far higher level especially given the details of the manga weren't as deep as they are now. This isn't even about if it's "right" but more about the fact that it's happened before, it obviously would happen again and the fact people are this upset when they should have been upset when it happened to Oro, Pain and Obito.
> 
> It seems most people just haven't come to grips that Kishimoto likes doing this. Posters wouldn't last in the golden days when Orochimaru of all people was hit with the Troll Hammer. I can't even tell you how bad it was.
> 
> Madara's just not an exception to any rule. Lighten up.




Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner.


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## T-Bag (Jun 5, 2014)

he's just not that guy man...not with madara around

if madara left obito to continue his will then okay. but with madara present and given everything we know about him, having obito as FV is just a bad move


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## Invictus-Kun (Jun 5, 2014)

Now Kaguya is presenting that someone was more powerful than her


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## Nic (Jun 5, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> I really don't see what would make Kaguya more compelling. I'll admit things were dragging on with Madara, but that is exactly why he should've been beaten by the heroes as the primary antagonistic force of this series. Because it would finally mark the end of this arc. Kaguya only drags it out further, and she's far less established. She's more of the same that came with Sage Madara. I almost forgot this started out as a *war*; but that's how bad things have gotten.


 tbh things should have ended with Obito.  Madara is an extension of Obito and Kaguya is an extension of Madara.



Klue said:


> She usurped him before his story reached its conclusion. A character *confirmed* for villainy 8 chapters ago. Her name first appeared 33 chapters ago.
> 
> 33. That's less than a year's time. The major villain of the entire story was first mentioned 33 chapters ago.
> 
> ...


 
ugh you mean five/six years to see them take down Obito who pretended to be Madara? lol


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## StickaStick (Jun 5, 2014)

Tbh things should end where Kishi wants them to. He could have realistically ended it with Pain, Obito, Kabuto, Oro, Mads, et al. but hasn't for reasons known only to him. Certain fandoms seem to be under the impression that it is a specific character's divine right to be the end-game (when we all know that will be Sasuke )


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## T-Bag (Jun 5, 2014)

The Format said:


> Tbh things should end where Kishi wants them to. He could have realistically ended it with Pain, Obito, Kabuto, Oro, Mads, et al. but hasn't for r*easons known only to him.* Certain fandoms seem to be under the impression that it is a specific character's divine right to be the end-game (when we all know that will be Sasuke )





imagine them as 100s


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## Orochibuto (Jun 5, 2014)

Even if Sasuke follows; I wont consider him FV; merely an antagonist unless his plan is on global scale and he is at least as strong as Kaguya.

If he is weaker than Kaguya or his beef with Naruto is for the Hokage hat; as far as I am cincerned Kaguya is thevultimate villain.


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## celebrei (Jun 5, 2014)

Kyuubi Naruto said:


> Format brought up an interesting point.
> 
> Oro's trolling as a character was far worse than what happened to Madara here. Mind you, Oro was the first real main villain of the series who was seen as the "big bad". Most of part 1 was about Oro and even part 2, a good amount of it had him as being the major guy. Even if Akatsuki was looming, Oro was the one who had a hold as being the FV back then. I remember the theories and everything. Anyway, the moment Sasuke literally took down Oro while he was on his deathbed? Then Itachi took care of him? You guys have no idea how the landscape changed. That was insane compared to how it is these days because that was the first major time a villain was shown up like that. Sure, Madara was put down but it happened to Oro first and foremost, that was the first taste of Kishimoto switching villains on it at the drop of a dime. Orochimaru was "the bad guy" of the series. Even when Itachi damaged him, everyone always assumed Oro would come back but no, he was used to show Sasuke and Itachi's strength.
> 
> ...



Agreed, Madara is no special snowflake, he's just like Oro,Nagato and Obito, secondary villains to the true Final Villain (Kaguya)


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## Jin-E (Jun 5, 2014)

Kyuubi Naruto said:


> Format brought up an interesting point.
> 
> Oro's trolling as a character was far worse than what happened to Madara here. Mind you, Oro was the first real main villain of the series who was seen as the "big bad". Most of part 1 was about Oro and even part 2, a good amount of it had him as being the major guy. Even if Akatsuki was looming, Oro was the one who had a hold as being the FV back then. I remember the theories and everything. Anyway, the moment Sasuke literally took down Oro while he was on his deathbed? Then Itachi took care of him? You guys have no idea how the landscape changed. That was insane compared to how it is these days because that was the first major time a villain was shown up like that. Sure, Madara was put down but it happened to Oro first and foremost, that was the first taste of Kishimoto switching villains on it at the drop of a dime. Orochimaru was "the bad guy" of the series. Even when Itachi damaged him, everyone always assumed Oro would come back but no, he was used to show Sasuke and Itachi's strength.



Lol, even today i remember those times. Prior to Sasuke vs Oro, something like 90% of the people on the forums believed Oro would win by stunning him with the curse seal and that he would succesfully take over his body.


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## Kyuubi Naruto (Jun 5, 2014)

celebrei said:


> Agreed, Madara is no special snowflake, he's just like Oro,Nagato and Obito, secondary villains to the true Final Villain (Kaguya)



Yep, exactly, whether people want to believe it or not, this is true. 

Orochimaru, Pain/Nagato, Kabuto, Obito, Madara, they all are secondary villains compared to who will eventually be the FV of the manga. Right now Kaguya his their best candidate if you eliminate Sasuke. Sasuke's probably going to end up being it as he has ties to the main character, he's automatically in a different potentially bracket. Kaguya however has taken the reigns of which Oro, Pain and the rest have.

Allow me to reference a Jay-Z track in Naruto references
*
"Oro dogged it, his reign came down
Pain kept it ghetto for Akatsuki's crown
Madara abused bitches after Obito removed bridges
Kaguya’s up next, see what she do with it"
*
That's basically it. 

She's next up. It's a cycle.





Jin-E said:


> Lol, even today i remember those times. Prior to Sasuke vs Oro, something like 90% of the people on the forums believed Oro would win by stunning him with the curse seal and that he would succesfully take over his body.



Yeah I remember those days too. The theory about Oro taking over Sasuke's body as Naruto fights Orosuke on the outside while Sasuke fights Oro on the inside was very popular lol.


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## Drunkenwhale (Jun 5, 2014)

Stelios said:


> PikaCheeka Shonen Manga's target group is 10-18. You have long passed the age where you can be impressed by this level of writing.




Just because something is made "for kids" does not mean it can excuse such writing.

Unless you're writing for a picture book (and even then) you still try to have it make sense - Kaguya's whole upgrade into the big bad was a thoughtless, out of nowhere, complete and utter mess.


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## Orochibuto (Jun 5, 2014)

Kyuubi Naruto said:


> Yep, exactly, whether people want to believe it or not, this is true.
> 
> Orochimaru, Pain/Nagato, Kabuto, Obito, Madara, they all are secondary villains compared to who will eventually be the FV of the manga. Right now Kaguya his their best candidate if you eliminate Sasuke. Sasuke's probably going to end up being it as he has ties to the main character, he's automatically in a different potentially bracket. Kaguya however has taken the reigns of which Oro, Pain and the rest have.
> 
> ...



Sasuke could be the final antagonist; while Kaguya is FV.

Yes; chronologically he is likely next; but under no logic he can be called the greatesr villain when chances are he will be weaker than Kaguya and his beef will be just to get the Hokage hat.

Is basically like the Vigoor Emperor and Murai in ninja Gaiden.

The Vigoor Emperor was an evil god that was going to reduce to devour the entire universe; while Murai is the human uncle of the main character.

Murai was the last fight in the game; but no one would claim Murai was the greatest villain or the FV (as understood as the most important one; not in a strict dictionary definition)


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## Invictus-Kun (Jun 5, 2014)

Kyuubi Naruto said:


> Yep, exactly, whether people want to believe it or not, this is true.
> 
> Orochimaru, Pain/Nagato, Kabuto, Obito, Madara, they all are secondary villains compared to who will eventually be the FV of the manga. Right now Kaguya his their best candidate if you eliminate Sasuke. Sasuke's probably going to end up being it as he has ties to the main character, he's automatically in a different potentially bracket. Kaguya however has taken the reigns of which Oro, Pain and the rest have.
> 
> ...



Then what about the reason why kaguya is making an army of Zetzombie nins? for what? it is pretty sure more powerful than Kaguya. a someone or something, that is the FV, Obito gives the FV title to Maddy, Maddy as dethroned by Zetsu and Kaguya, then Who will dethroned Kaguya? That Someone


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## Nic (Jun 5, 2014)

One thing I do find funny, is how so many accuse Kaguya for being bland etc when we know nothing about her.  Then again I understand our expectations of kishi are low but still, you're jumping the gun nonetheless and shouldn't be using that as part of an argument until it's proven so.


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## Kai (Jun 5, 2014)

Kyuubi Naruto said:


> Oro was the first real main villain of the series who was seen as the "big bad". Most of part 1 was about Oro and even part 2, a good amount of it had him as being the major guy. Even if Akatsuki was looming, Oro was the one who had a hold as being the FV back then. I remember the theories and everything.


You throw out worthy food for thought about Oro, but to be fair Kishimoto was never going to make him FV, even back then.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 5, 2014)

celebrei said:


> She has already been introduced dozens and dozens of chapters ago, this, right now, is where Kishi starts to fully flesh out her character.
> 
> The Madara fandom however, will not give her a chance, or should I say, will not give _anyone_ a chance to be FV as long as it isn't Madara.



Every other antagonist has had years of build up. You can't compare the two. That's something you can't take back, and once wasted that ship has sailed. It's not unreasonable to assume that in the final act of the story, some care and competence would be taken in contrast to earlier parts of the story.

"Dozens and Dozens" wasn't even a year ago. We've known about Madara for over ten, it really has little to do with whether or not one WANTED Madara to be FV and more about what that story for over a decade had built up to. Kaguya is hardly a fresh start, and she's more of the same that was the problem with Madara, especially after his absorption of the Juubi. You talk about people not giving her a chance, they really don't have a reason to. Also to apply some logic going around, what would make her any different from the other antagonists Kishi has flopped on in light of the recent developments surrounding Madara? It looks to me people hopping on the Kaguya train are doing the exact same thing they criticize Madara fans of doing.



			
				Nic said:
			
		

> One thing I do find funny, is how so many accuse Kaguya for being bland etc when we know nothing about her. Then again I understand our expectations of kishi are low but still, you're jumping the gun nonetheless and shouldn't be using that as part of an argument until it's proven so.



I'll state again, there never seems to be a good time to make a judgment on things with this story. This is supposed to be the last arc, that's MORE than a good time to make a judgment call. Kaguya only just appeared recently in the latter part of this arc...yet the expectation is that people are supposed to buy her as antagonists that had years of buildup to them. It makes zero sense. Why should anyone put hopes in Kaguya as late in the story as she appeared in? As often, as people who defend her oddly bring up, Kishi's track record with antagonists?


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## Kyuubi Naruto (Jun 5, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> Sasuke could be the final antagonist; while Kaguya is FV.
> 
> Yes; chronologically he is likely next; but under no logic he can be called the greatesr villain when chances are he will be weaker than Kaguya and his beef will be just to get the Hokage hat.
> 
> ...



That makes sense and I understand, at the same time a lot of people still call Murai the FV of the game. Mundus/Vergil in DMC fits in this line as well. Just depends on how you put it and it depends on what Sasuke does for the future considering he's still up in the air. 

I highly doubt it'll be over "just being Hokage". With Naruto, a guy who's surpassed the Hokage already, it looks miniscule. 





Invcitusmaster said:


> Then what about the reason why kaguya is making an army of Zetzombie nins? for what? it is pretty sure more powerful than Kaguya. a someone or something, that is the FV, Obito gives the FV title to Maddy, Maddy as dethroned by Zetsu and Kaguya, then Who will dethroned Kaguya? That Someone



It is possible too. Kaguya's probably going to be treated the same way as Oro, Pain, Kabuto, Obito and Madara were. It's Kishi and this is a trend so I see everyone falling in the same place until it ends. 

Knowing Kishi, Kaguya's father, a tyrant King, is the force she's trying to get an army to defeat. Probably because he's ruling her home and she needs to take him down. 

Who knows really. 





Kai said:


> You throw out worthy food for thought about Oro, but to be fair Kishimoto was never going to make him FV, even back then.



Yeah but that was the main guy picked as being FV back then from the majority of the forum. Even after that, people assumed Oro would somehow rise above considering the hold he had on the plot.


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## Gunners (Jun 5, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:
			
		

> Every other antagonist has had years of build up. You can't compare the two. That's something you can't take back, and once wasted that ship has sailed. It's not unreasonable to assume that in the final act of the story, some care and competence would be taken in contrast to earlier parts of the story.


Nope, the series is actually fraught with antagonists who were built up after their initial reveal. If you don't believe me you should consider what we knew about the likes of Danzou, Orochimaru, Gaara, Sasori, Kisame, Deidara, and so on, when they were first painted as villains. 



> "Dozens and Dozens" wasn't even a year ago. We've known about Madara for over ten, it really has little to do with whether or not one WANTED Madara to be FV and more about what that story for over a decade had built up to. Kaguya is hardly a fresh start, and she's more of the same that was the problem with Madara, especially after his absorption of the Juubi. You talk about people not giving her a chance, they really don't have a reason to. Also to apply some logic going around, what would make her any different from the other antagonists Kishi has flopped on in light of the recent developments surrounding Madara? It looks to me people hopping on the Kaguya train are doing the exact same thing they criticize Madara fans of doing.


It looks to me that the people chastising the way Kaguya was shoehorned into the plot are not being consistent. You're arguing that the series has been building towards Madara as final villain for over 10 years, when he falls into the same category as Kaguya, an individual whose relevance to previous plotlines occurred retrospectively. 

You go back 10 years ago; the perceived Akatsuki leader ( Nagato) was the predicted final villain. Madara had zero relevance what so ever; it was not until Tobi usurped Nagato's position as the big boss that people started to speculate, and even then people questioned whether the masked man was Madara.


> I'll state again, there never seems to be a good time to make a judgment on things with this story. This is supposed to be the last arc, that's MORE than a good time to make a judgment call. Kaguya only just appeared recently in the latter part of this arc...yet the expectation is that people are supposed to buy her as antagonists that had years of buildup to them. It makes zero sense. Why should anyone put hopes in Kaguya as late in the story as she appeared in? As often, as people who defend her oddly bring up, Kishi's track record with antagonists?


Yeah... I don't think this is the last arc. 
_______
Also find the responses funny, funny because people do not know what the fuck they want. If you want a story where proper foundations are set, you will inevitably sacrifice the unpredictable nature of the series; but people will bitch and cry when the expected happens. If you want a story that is unpredictable, certain foundations will be omitted; yet people will bitch and complain about ass pulls.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 5, 2014)

Gunners said:


> Nope, the series is actually fraught with antagonists who were built up after their initial reveal. If you don't believe me you should consider what we knew about the likes of Danzou, Orochimaru, Gaara, Sasori, Kisame, Deidara, and so on, when they were first painted as villains.



Orochimaru was the story's first major antagonist, having a very personal relationship with Naruto's teacher and the Hokage at the time...Itachi was up next, he was constantly referred to but unseen until that particular incident. Both characters were given years to establish their presence in the story. Even Nagato, as Pain was given years to establish himself as the mysterious and imposing figure behind Akatsuki. Kabuto we've known since the Chunin Exams...Obito we had known of his existence from the start, physically introduced to him in Kakashi Gaiden. 

Finally, Madara most notably was referred to unnamed at the end of Part I; as the other person opposite the first Hokage. Finally referred to by name early Part II, we knew, over 300 chapters before he made a physical appearance in the current timeline that this was a character we would learn more about over time, as we did. Since that time we learned more and more about Madara, and about his machinations that led to the formation of Akatsuki. 

All of these antagonists we had a very long time to be acquainted to before they made their big moves in the story. At the very least, we knew of them. The same can't be said for Kaguya. 



> It looks to me that the people chastising the way Kaguya was shoehorned into the plot are not being consistent. You're arguing that the series has been building towards Madara as final villain for over 10 years, when he falls into the same category as Kaguya, an individual whose relevance to previous plotlines occurred retrospectively.



What? Madara has been a known figure since at least 2005. We were shown a glimpse of him, again, unnamed as the other figure in the VotE, and that this man was a co-founder of the village. We were finally given a name to that man when Kyuubi commented on Sasuke's sinister chakra. I remember as these chapters came out almost immediately people began to see, as Naruto in their fight at the end of Part I stood on the side of Hashirama, the man Sasuke was standing on would have been this Madara. Someone as years passed since that time a person we began to learn more and more about, and what his legacy was. That's not retrospective. We've had years to be ready for this guy. 



> You go back 10 years ago; the perceived Akatsuki leader ( Nagato) was the predicted final villain. Madara had zero relevance what so ever; it was not until Tobi usurped Nagato's position as the big boss that people started to speculate, and even then people questioned whether the masked man was Madara.



Madara had been a person of interest ever since he was alluded to at the end of Part I, and definitely when he was mentioned by the kyuubi in relation to the nature of Sasuke's chakra. Do you not remember most notably the Tengu fan-theory that was circulating, which was about him? Years before he had really set a foothold in this story? If he was not going to make a physical presence in the manga, at the very least, we knew that we would learn much more about him. We knew that considering as many people correctly assumed, being the other figure at the valley would learn what role he had to play in the grand scheme of things. This is nowhere near the same as Kaguya, whom was just introduced to us earlier this year, in what is supposed to be the final act of the series. 



> Yeah... I don't think this is the last arc.



Which is unfortunate. 
_______


> Also find the responses funny, funny because people do not know what the fuck they want. If you want a story where proper foundations are set, you will inevitably sacrifice the unpredictable nature of the series; but people will bitch and cry when the expected happens. If you want a story that is unpredictable, certain foundations will be omitted; yet people will bitch and complain about ass pulls.



You can set proper foundations, but successfully execute unpredictable turns. Also, I would hardly call the "unpredictable nature" of this series as a highlight of its quality, considering where it often comes from. Whether the expected or the unexpected happens is ultimately irrelevant to how people will judge the quality of writing. Most stories people do not expect certain things and hail them as being wonderfull executed. You do not acquaint yourself with a new story knowing what's going to happen next, but many times you grow to enjoy it. So I don't think that's a valid point to make here. People know what they want, and that is simply good writing. It seems like a lot of apologists in this section these days treat wanting that as a bad thing.


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## Kaix (Jun 5, 2014)

I don't know if you'll pass by my post or not, OP, or even if you'll bother to read it, but this does come off less objective than you initially state it to be. A lot of the rhetoric you used in writing this is like what I would use when I want to convince someone of my point, but don't believe nearly as strong in that point. As such, the issues you bring up seem more heated and less genuine. For example, her lack of depth, which is expected in a weekly manga where almost nothing can happen in one chapter, the late game switch, which does happen, the lack of dynamic characterization, which isn't necessary in every good character or story, her potential as a villain, which hasn't really happened yet, and the lack of planning, which we have no evidence of considering that foreshadowing does not equate to planning.

Kaguya has time to be expressed. Her story has only been told through the legends of the stone, and her son, who seemed to not be on the best terms and probably lacking a lot of internal information, as well as information from before his birth. What we have of her at this moment is merely the framework of a character which can very easily be filled in by actions, just like how Madara's character was filled in by his initial actions as an Edo Tensei, and I know you argued that alongside, but separate from, me back when everyone was misinterpreting him. Kaguya is the one who knows everything that is left to be known and so she will most certainly spill her guts.

As for the plot inconsistencies, these are simple. The story we hear were second and third hand accounts; second from Hagoromo, and third from Madara who read Hagoromo's tablet. his interpretation of the tablet, which we don't know what type of grammar it was written in, but very likely could have been confusing due to cultural differences allows for the stories to be plausibly different. Her Mugen Tsukuyomi without the moon is also possible considering the only detail we have is that Nagato stated a myth about Hagoromo creating the moon. Myth's can be wrong. Maybe Kaguya made the moon. Maybe there was another moon prior to Hagoromo's moon that was destroyed in order to end the illusion. You are smart enough to know that a lot can be very cleverly written into fiction, and not be considered bad writing. As for her army, we only just learned about this army pages ago. It is a bit rushed to not wait for an explanation before calling it illogical. There are many possibilities for this army, probably all of which involve attacking something, be it a planet, or a dimension, or even heaven/hell. These are options, and while most of us cringe at the possible failures these could produce from the clashing themes with ninja, they too could be maintained, however unlikely.

Her potential as a villain is still great, though probably not from the perspective of any side character fandoms. As you well know, this is a story about Team 7. The rest don't matter as much, and two of Team 7 are along for the ride. Anything that happens to them is going to cause Naruto turmoil which will be greater than all of what just happened to the world. There is no questioning Madara's success as a villain, but let's not limit what could come to top it just because we can't imagine it.

The lack of planning argument, is just too forced. We can talk about relevance as a valid discussion point, for her having been around for less than a year now with no foreshadowing, but that does not equate to planning. We don't know how long she has been in development, For all we know, the son of the kyubi, Naruto, from the pilot chapter was always meant to fight the Rabbit Goddess, but it was meant to be completely hidden, much like many final bosses in video games. From there we jump into issues of consistency because Kishimoto hints at everything, but changing the pace can be a good thing.

This isn't the best writing that Kishimoto has produced, no, but it is not nearly as bad as it is being made out to be. This essay is reminscent of the middle english critic Ben Jonson, who would often write scathing criticisms that he didn't fully agree with in order to please the people paying him. He wrote some very nasty things about several pieces of work which are not bad, neither by today's standards, nor the standards of his time. From my limited experience reading his work, it seems that he was at his most vicious when he wrote about works in this manner, without fully agreeing with his critique.

As for me, I'm probably biased to the series to defend it more than I normally would, but I'm rarely one to be in a fandom of any character. I just don't like the idea of liking some characters and disliking others. I'm it for the stories told, the devices used, the mechanics, the nuances, and how the characters interact, but the characters themselves, I don't care enough. Rather, I like them all. My favorites are Naruto and Minato, mostly because I prefer their styles of fighting, but also because I'm a more lighthearted fellow like them. Nonetheless, I love Madara... and Obito, and all the kage, and most of the konoha 12, and Sai, and almost all the ninja from the other villages in the alliance, and most of Akatsuki, and the list goes on. I just love characters for how they influence the story, so I don't get mad and call stink when Minato gets embarrassed by Tobirama, because even though I like Minato more, I love to watch the players interact. I'm saying this to validate my own stance as not being of a fandom, and yes, I do love the idea of Kaguya, the person who sought to end wars, probably not out of altruism. Just watch her act in the few panels of this chapter that she is in. She's arrogant, disengaged, motherly, cruel, inhuman, it's lovely. I can't wait for more from her considering there isn't another character like her in Naruto based on what few scenes we have.

Anyway, my essay is done. I hope it is read.


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## vagnard (Jun 5, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> Sasuke could be the final antagonist; while Kaguya is FV.
> 
> Yes; chronologically he is likely next; but under no logic he can be called the greatesr villain when chances are he will be weaker than Kaguya and his beef will be just to get the Hokage hat.
> 
> ...



Like I said before. Enishi was the final villian of RK compared to Shishio no matter how much you try to twist it. You don't have to be the most powerful villian or having a greater scheme plan to be the final villian. It's just a chronological order. Also your status as threat depends on the author definition. Sasuke can be a bigger threat to Naruto from a philosophical point of view clashing directly with his ideals and the fact he has being trying to entire manga to convert him compared the rest of the villians who just take a single arc. 

Also you can be a major battle threat without being more powerful than the previous villian. I'll give you an example. 

Let's assume both Naruto and Sasuke individually have a power level of 50. Let's say for the sake of the discussion Kaguya is 80. Then Naruto and Sasuke fused Kyubi Susanoo is 100. 

100-80 = 20 points of advantage for the protagonists. Also they have Sakura and Kakashi (and potentially Obito and Madara( at their side that could add more points depending how they are used. 

Naruto most likely will fight Sasuke alone. 50-50 = 0. So there is zero advantage for the hero in this situation making the fight more difficult for him despise Kaguya being a stronger enemy than Sasuke. It's just an example about what could happen.


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## Stan Lee (Jun 5, 2014)

dungsi27 said:


> Cant explain it yet,but definitely cannot be explained that way



Fruit is just a seed carrier, its possibly that when Kaguya ate the fruit she became a new shinju. Why is that Kaguya's wants the chakra to become one again, like Hagoromo said the shinju wanted? Why did Kaguya say to Madara "take me in, the god tree and the ten tailed tails" like they were one of the same?

 If that is the case then it means Kaguya is not really a new character, but the true form of the juubi. And that thing has been hyped up for years.


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## Deleted member 206107 (Jun 5, 2014)

at Sasuke being FV.


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## vagnard (Jun 5, 2014)

Basically this thread has 2 premises:

1-Kaguya is shit. 
2-Madara was the established FV and he was untrolleable. 

I agree with the first premise but I disagree with the second one. 

Yes, Kaguya is an asspull with no development that came out of nowhere and that doesn't add anything new to the story. But that doesn't mean Madara wasn't pretty much the same. The story could worked perfectly if the Masked Man was Madara all time along without "Real Madara" coming to the play or even being another guy preteding to be Madara like Juubi's will or something. (Obito was fated to fail because his previous exposition during Kakashi gaiden. 

Madara never was special. He was just another stepping stone for Naruto vs Sasuke. The same as Pain, Nagato or Obito. The same will be for Kaguya. Personally I'd prefered this war ended with Madara... not because he is a great villian but because Kaguya sucks and just drags this shitfest even more. 

What really bothers me is your selective reading. You claim the manga is ruined just now because you are a Madara fan failing to recognize all the other fans of the villians who received similar treatment before or how the plot was a mess since the introduction of Rikudo and Rinnegan. This manga lost all coherence after Sasuke vs Itachi. That was the moment it jumped the shark and dropped his theme about ninjas or Akatsuki trying to fuck the ninja system to conquer the countries in favor of a more generic "Destiny child" story about fate, demi gods and magic. 

For me the game changer here was Pain introducing a greater doujutsu than Sharingan out of his ass that was also linked not by blood but due some mystical reincarnation  with the creator of ninja world. Before that Akatsuki had more down to the earth goals being human criminals and therefore more relateable.


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## Kai (Jun 5, 2014)

@vagnard

How do you know Kaguya adds nothing to the story? What you know, *which is little to nothing*, has little to nothing to do with her. What you don't know may have everything to do with her.

There is so much shit about the history that Kishi has intentionally left out of the story. Again, I'd like to reiterate the point that you don't know shit about her history, her sons' history, or Madara's after VOTE.  Yeah, just sit there as we continuously learn more about Kaguya and her involvement in the plot and past plots week after week, until she becomes a character that you're just "used to" seeing in the manga, like many people now see with Obito.

For the last time, Kaguya is not an asspull. People have been throwing that term so frequently they've lost touch with what that term even means.


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## Kanki (Jun 5, 2014)

To be honest you could make the argument that Naruto's direction changed a few years into part 2, when it started to leave the goal of Hokage and turned into some manga about a jesus christ savior.

As much as I love the guy, Jiraiya is partly to blame.


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## Roman (Jun 5, 2014)

Kai said:


> @vagnard
> 
> How do you know Kaguya adds nothing to the story? What you know, *which is little to nothing*, has little to nothing to do with her. What you don't know may have everything to do with her.
> 
> ...



Excuse me, but that's the very definition of "being shoehorned in" if I ever saw it. At this point, I'm just waiting for Naruto and Sasuke to transform into Ashura and Indra respectively. Only then will the circle truly be complete.


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## Obitroll (Jun 5, 2014)

I agree with op Madara was the best and most well established villain for the manga. And it's not only about establishment, it's also about character development. He was developed (besides some unexcused minor reactions from him) to the point that some could even agree or understand his idea and morals up to a portion, however stretched they may be. He was kinda plausible and evil in an interesting way (unlike the "true evil" psycotic no-depth first-layered villains that a 3-year-old could write and many people wierdly enough would like. Not talking about any character in particular btw)

But as much as I agree with the opinion that kaguya is not NEARLY as established as madara and could never hope to be the FV that he will be, I don't think she's _totally_ irelevant. To me, she represents something even higher than _the system_ or _conficting morals_ which the main characters have to face in order to be complete: the _biological nature_.


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## dungsi27 (Jun 5, 2014)

Zero Requiem said:


> Fruit is just a seed carrier, its possibly that when Kaguya ate the fruit she became a new shinju. Why is that Kaguya's wants the chakra to become one again, like Hagoromo said the shinju wanted? Why did Kaguya say to Madara "take me in, the god tree and the ten tailed tails" like they were one of the same?
> 
> If that is the case then it means Kaguya is not really a new character, but the true form of the juubi. And that thing has been hyped up for years.



None of what you say is a fact,but rather a theory. And that theory cannot be true,because it would contradict with lots of facts in this manga,especially those written on the tablet and said by Hagoromo.

So again unless Hagoromo is latter revealed to be a big lier,none of these theories make sense.


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## CA182 (Jun 5, 2014)

Wow people are really angry over this... 

Sometimes I feel like the fandom for Naruto simply hates _change._

Every time Kishimoto tries to introduce a new concept, idea or historical fact. People gather up the pitchforks over it...

It's getting a tad destructive now.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Jun 5, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> To be honest you could make the argument that Naruto's direction changed a few years into part 2, when it started to leave the goal of Hokage and turned into some manga about a jesus christ savior.
> 
> As much as I love the guy, Jiraiya is partly to blame.




The damage was already done by then. What you mention is simply the consequences of the choices that Kishimoto made much earlier.

If you consider the end of the Sasuke and Sai arc and consider the possible options how that arc could have ended---(a) Naruto saving Sasuke; (b) Naruto failing to save Sasuke---then either way the story should explore the consequences of those options. If Naruto saves Sasuke, it means Orochimaru is defeated and Sasuke has to face the consequences of going rogue. If Naruto fails to save Sasuke, he will have to deal with that failure, while Sasuke will have to save himself.

Now consider how the story actually dealt with it. Naruto fails to save Sasuke but continues as if he's never failed at all. That's bad writing. Sasuke has to save himself and achieves it with a Deus Ex Sharingan (it really shouldn't have surprised Orochimaru; in fact Orochimaru should have had a counter to it, because that's the kind of guy he is). It actually makes it seem like Sasuke never needed to be saved in the first place. This too is bad writing.

All in all, by doing what Kishimoto did at the start of the Itachi Pursuit arc, Kishimoto created an alternative starting point for Part 2. The story never recovered from it! Switching from Naruto's POV to Sasuke's POV is like switching from one alternative universe to another. It's simply that bad. Stuff like the Prophesy and the Rikudo are just attempts to merge these two alternative universe back together again.


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## CA182 (Jun 5, 2014)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> The damage was already done by then. What you mention is simply the consequences of the choices that Kishimoto made much earlier.
> 
> If you consider the end of the Sasuke and Sai arc and consider the possible options how that arc could have ended---(a) Naruto saving Sasuke; (b) Naruto failing to save Sasuke---then either way the story should explore the consequences of those options. If Naruto saves Sasuke, it means Orochimaru is defeated and Sasuke has to face the consequences of going rogue. If Naruto fails to save Sasuke, he will have to deal with that failure, while Sasuke will have to save himself.
> 
> ...



This is one thing I'd never mind though... Team 7 is the main cast of Naruto.

They have been since the beginning.

The only criticism I'd have is Sakura's had far less focus than the other 3.


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## Stan Lee (Jun 5, 2014)

dungsi27 said:


> None of what you say is a fact,but rather a theory. And that theory cannot be true,because it would contradict with lots of facts in this manga,especially those written on the tablet and said by Hagoromo.
> 
> So again unless Hagoromo is latter revealed to be a big lier,none of these theories make sense.



Yeah, the tablet that twists and omits facts. 

Hagoromo never said what happened to his dear mother.


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## Tony Lou (Jun 5, 2014)

CA182 said:


> Wow people are really angry over this...
> 
> Sometimes I feel like the fandom for Naruto simply hates _change._
> 
> ...



It's more about the hows than the whats.


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## Haruka Katana (Jun 5, 2014)

My standards are already as low as it is, I just find the whole Kaguya shit way off with whatever Kishi has done so far, doesn't matter if people think it isn't new, this is another level of being off. Like what others had said, Kaguya was introduced not long ago then bam, FV in my face.

Overall I ain't even that mad about Kaguya  I hardly care but just voicing my opinion over it anyway.


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## Kuromaku (Jun 5, 2014)

To call this development shoehorned is an understatement. To call this arc a mess is an understatement. To call the entire second half of the manga poorly written goes past understatement. It's so understated that I just lost track of the analogy I was about to make.

While the execution of both Obito and Madara was less than stellar, there was some basis for their importance in the plot. We had each character having an impact on the history of the world. We had some connection between them and the current thematic conflicts going on in the story. Kaguya was suddenly introduced less than a hundred chapters ago during this very arc and is suddenly expected to take on the role of the Big Bad. That's piss poor writing. How would _The Lord of the Rings_ feel if after being told of the threat of Sauron for so long, the last act of the War of the Ring introduced a new Big Bad who came out of nowhere (I'm not talking Morgoth, who made a proper entry into the canon in another work, I'm talking someone new right the fuck out of nowhere)?

And for those who argue that a manga for kids is excused for bad writing, I ask you this: seriously? So if it's for kids, it can be as badly written as you want? I disagree. Look at _A Troll in Central Park_, a bad movie for kids that was bad because not only was it poorly written, but it seemed to mock its audience's intelligence. A good story for kids shouldn't do that. Hell, no story should do that. Look at _Avatar: The Last Airbender_. While the writing wasn't perfect, it had fleshed out characters, carefully approached sensitive topics such as war and its effect on people, and told a for the most part solid and cohesive story.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Jun 5, 2014)

CA182 said:


> This is one thing I'd never mind though... Team 7 is the main cast of Naruto.
> 
> They have been since the beginning.
> 
> The only criticism I'd have is Sakura's had far less focus than the other 3.




The switching of the point of views isn't bad in and of itself. Even Part 1 did that.

The fact that each POV is not a *different perspective on the same universe* is a problem. Hence why I said each perspective is more like an alternative universe. Part 2 often feels as if you're reading two stories.


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## sadino (Jun 5, 2014)

Addy said:


> i said this for months but no one listens
> 
> as much as i don't like madara and see kaguya as nothing more than fapping material for the hardcore natukushi fans, i have to admit, this is crappy writing.
> 
> ...



This. +1

I found Maddy to be very boring but this plotwist was just retarded.Loved the third uchiha brother metaphor.


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## CuteJuubi (Jun 5, 2014)

Zero Requiem said:


> Yeah, the tablet that twists and omits facts.
> 
> Hagoromo never said what happened to his dear mother.



That is indeed something anomalous, why didn't he tell Naruto and Sasuke that his mommy was inside the Shinju? I seriously doubt he doesn't know this, and truth be told, he could have prevented her revival if he told Naruto and Sasuke to warn Madara that Kaguya will takeover him after casting MT, but no,  he glaringly omitted that important detail about Kaguya's fate and whereabouts.


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## NarutoxKakashi (Jun 5, 2014)

CA182 said:


> Wow people are really angry over this...
> 
> Sometimes I feel like the fandom for Naruto simply hates _change._
> 
> ...



I think you've addressed the broader issue with the manga that most people have. 

Just my 2 cents, but I feel like the manga has less character development now and more just rapid power-ups and final boss fights (except it's obvious each final boss fight isn't the actual final boss). My favorite fight in the whole series was the Zabuza/Kakashi fight, simply because of the complexities of meaning behind the fight and the development of the characters before/during/after the fight. All these recent fights have been painfully predictable and devoid of any meaning beyond Naruto stating the MEP is wrong because it's a lie. 

As for OP, I was starting to worry about you when you went AWOL. I'm glad you decided to come back.


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## Orochibuto (Jun 5, 2014)

vagnard said:


> Like I said before. Enishi was the final villian of RK compared to Shishio no matter how much you try to twist it. You don't have to be the most powerful villian or having a greater scheme plan to be the final villian. It's just a chronological order. Also your status as threat depends on the author definition. Sasuke can be a bigger threat to Naruto from a philosophical point of view clashing directly with his ideals and the fact he has being trying to entire manga to convert him compared the rest of the villians who just take a single arc.
> 
> Also you can be a major battle threat without being more powerful than the previous villian. I'll give you an example.
> 
> ...



And as such I never took Enishi seriously.

The author has to be logical; no matter how much the makers wanted it to appear logical; no one would say Murai and Vergil were the big villains of their game.

So no FV undestood as the most important villain cant be just anyone.


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## Jad (Jun 5, 2014)

All that's going through my head is "Boy, you really like Madara"


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## T-Bag (Jun 5, 2014)

Jad said:


> All that's going through my head is "Boy, you really like Madara"



that's because you haven't read the OP, or even care to read for that matter 

when u opened that thread, you knew exactly what you were gonna post


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## Sete (Jun 5, 2014)

I read it and its just a big fucking rant. ye wrap it up and call it an essay, might convince someone.


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## T-Bag (Jun 5, 2014)

Sete said:


> I read it and its just a big fucking rant. ye wrap it up and call it an essay, might convince someone.



ranting eh? so you like this development? this is your definition of good writing from kishi?


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## Sete (Jun 5, 2014)

T-Bag said:


> ranting eh? so you like this development? this is your definition of good writing from kishi?



Well every time GRRM killed one of my fav char out of nowhere I don't call it bad writing like some of you do.
Caught you by surprise? I call it good writing. Or it should follow your expectations? No. That would be bad writing and next week you would be here complaining about how predictable this is or that is.
People are disappointed with the"end" madara got. I understand that. But if you really call it bad writing then do better yourself.
Was I expecting Kaguya to appear? yes we all were. The way she did? hell no. Calling it bad writing is just poor man excuse.
It was an unexpected plot twist. And in my book that's good.
It affected and made people sad ,angry or happy. 
The story should affect the reader. And it did.


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## lathia (Jun 5, 2014)

Some of you actually think Madara was well developed? The same Madara Kishi wrote, in which he took a dump on well over half of Shippuden when he made Akatsuki (Biju capturing) obsolete and his only answer was "because I am Madara." Yeah... sure, cool story.  

Next thing, you all will be telling me Kishimoto didn't pull Izanami's effects out of a hat and made Kabuto look like a chump. Oh hey Kabuto, let me make you immune to ocular Genjutsu, but let me have Itachi still trap you in Genjutsu. Have fun reading these chapters and please don't think how poorly written this is. Selective criticism, what is it?


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## Gabe (Jun 5, 2014)

Sadly madara was hinted that he would become kaguras bitch when he absorbed the tree and there was a panel of 3 eyes that looked like kaguras. That's the moment I knew like many he was just going to end up a puppet. But people go e stay thought he was just going to use her power. No one gets power for free especially from a power hungry charcter. Plus kishi is predictable as heck, and hehints at stuff, he would not have mentioned her unless he was going to show her. People just thought madara was immune and he would not get the puppet treatment.  I like madara I personally found him a good character, but I knew kishi would do something to him. Kishi never leaves a charcter unhumiliated.  Everyone does eventually and it started with madara the moment gai whooped him and ended with this. Even if we do not like something we can't get to obsessed and depressed 9 very fiction. There is to muh real BS in the world. To get depressed, suicidal over a comic.


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## T-Bag (Jun 5, 2014)

Sete said:


> Well every time GRRM killed one of my fav char out of nowhere I don't call it bad writing like some of you do.
> Caught you by surprise? I call it good writing. Or it should follow your expectations? No. That would be bad writing and next week you would be here complaining about how predictable this is or that is.
> People are disappointed with the"end" madara got. I understand that. But if you really call it bad writing then do better yourself.
> Was I expecting Kaguya to appear? yes we all were. The way she did? hell no. Calling it bad writing is just poor man excuse.
> ...



Thank you, you have good standards


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## Sete (Jun 5, 2014)

Its my opinion. Dont like it I dont give a flying fuck. Just answered you. Be witty and bitter for as long as you like.
If my sarcasm detector was malfunctioning disregard previous comment. You can never be sure here.


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## Rain (Jun 5, 2014)

Madara as the final villain was bad, but someone who didn't even exist as a character until a few chapters ago is absolutely terrible.


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## Nic (Jun 5, 2014)

lol this shit seriously reminds me of Jenova in FFVII.


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## Sete (Jun 5, 2014)

Good example nic. And I loved it. 
But as I said  its just my opinion.


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## T-Bag (Jun 5, 2014)

Nic said:


> lol this shit seriously reminds me of Jenova in FFVII.



except jenova wasnt a last minute asspull


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## Arles Celes (Jun 5, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> And as such I never took Enishi seriously.
> 
> The author has to be logical; no matter how much the makers wanted it to appear logical; no one would say Murai and Vergil were the big villains of their game.
> 
> So no FV undestood as the most important villain cant be just anyone.




The thing is Sasuke being a jerkass would certainly become an enemy of the whole world soon enough even if his goals were only limited to the hokage title. Which country would allow him to rule after killing the greatest hero that the world ever had an usurping the power of a whole nation?

And we have to ask ourselves a question, IF Naruto and Kaguya disappeared could ANYONE handle Sasuke? Basically with those two out Sasuke can do whatever he fuckin' wants. Sasuke just like Kaguya could stomp the whole world. Just a bit slower than her but the result would be obvious from the start nevertheless.

Besides Sasuke said that eh wants to change the shinobi system and that is not something a mere hokage can do. Unless he becomes the ruler of the whole shinobi world such goal will be impossible. Sure, Naruto could accomplish it by being nice and having everyone follow his example...but does anyone see Sasuke taking such route with his attitude?

The only thing Sasuke wouldn't do is to destroy the whole world or turn them into Zetsus so his threat level is less threatening by default but only due to him being more reasonable...sorta.


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## Orochibuto (Jun 5, 2014)

I will wait and see I am prepared to consider Sasuke a credible threat even FV if his goal is big enough and he is at least as strong as Kaguya.


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## Undertaker (Jun 5, 2014)

I agree. But one correction: for me this manga went downhill around the Kakuzu-Hidan arc and Pain arc killed it. Not because I liked those characters or something but because Akatsuki-prime was golden times of this manga. And with Pain arc inflation of power took a new step. And Kakuzu/Pain was defeated only to show off Naruto`s power, tnj etc. It was bad.

The whole War arc is hurting my eyes. I would like to say that I don`t care about this manga anymore but in reality I can`t. I`m still interested, I`m still reading and it`s all based on my love for some past glory moments of this manga.

I can`t say I was a huge fan of any character. I`m more for the beautiful epic moments.
When Edo Madara showed up it was epic. With his power and battle experience he could teach anyone a lesson. He had style, his old-fashioned outfit was great. He was badass elite boss. It really revived my interest. And we know what`s happened next.

I don`t have hopes that this manga will be really interesting for me like in the old days. But I still want to see the end.


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## Stan Lee (Jun 5, 2014)

CuteJuubi said:


> That is indeed something anomalous, why didn't he tell Naruto and Sasuke that his mommy was inside the Shinju? I seriously doubt he doesn't know this, and truth be told, he could have prevented her revival if he told Naruto and Sasuke to warn Madara that Kaguya will takeover him after casting MT, but no,  he glaringly omitted that important detail about Kaguya's fate and whereabouts.



Kaguya has already referred to herself the Ten Tails. The sage seems to be ashamed that his mother is this legendary monster.


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## StickaStick (Jun 5, 2014)

@Orochibuto

Two things: one, why are you under the impression that Sasuke it only about getting that hokage seat? I'm genuinely curious. Sasuke's dialogue and mannerisms displayed during this arc--and before--I think I have made it beyond evident that he ultimately resembles a clash of ideologies with Naruto on how the 'ninja system' should fucntion. Being Hokage of the most influential village (Konaha) would obviously be a big step in that direction, but not necessarily the only option. I don't think anyone believes he is a srs candidate given past actions anyhow. 

Second, FV doesn't have to be equal to or greater than the strongest villain. Was Kid Buu stronger than Mystic Buu? No he wasn't, but that didn't stop him from being the FV of DBZ. There are other examples out there of course.  



Kaix said:


> I don't know if you'll pass by my post or not, OP, or even if you'll bother to read it, but this does come off less objective than you initially state it to be. A lot of the rhetoric you used in writing this is like what I would use when I want to convince someone of my point, but don't believe nearly as strong in that point. As such, the issues you bring up seem more heated and less genuine. For example, her lack of depth, which is expected in a weekly manga where almost nothing can happen in one chapter, the late game switch, which does happen, the lack of dynamic characterization, which isn't necessary in every good character or story, her potential as a villain, which hasn't really happened yet, and the lack of planning, which we have no evidence of considering that foreshadowing does not equate to planning.
> 
> Kaguya has time to be expressed. Her story has only been told through the legends of the stone, and her son, who seemed to not be on the best terms and probably lacking a lot of internal information, as well as information from before his birth. What we have of her at this moment is merely the framework of a character which can very easily be filled in by actions, just like how Madara's character was filled in by his initial actions as an Edo Tensei, and I know you argued that alongside, but separate from, me back when everyone was misinterpreting him. Kaguya is the one who knows everything that is left to be known and so she will most certainly spill her guts.
> 
> ...



Srsly, this might be the best, more sensible response in the entire thread and merits quoting. Well said sir. Not many ppl after such a dramatic development take the time and effort to to look at things through such a clear lens and offer a rational analysis.


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## PikaCheeka (Jun 5, 2014)

Holy shit this got huge. 

*Sorry in advance to everyone who posted who I may not reply to, for good or bad.* Ditching this place for 36 hours after posting it was a bad idea. 



Nic said:


> lol this shit seriously reminds me of Jenova in FFVII.



I don't understand how people can possibly make this comparison. Did you actually play the game? Because Jenova was definitely a prevalent name and problem throughout most of it.


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## oprisco (Jun 5, 2014)

It was apparent from the moment when Madara borrowed the tree's power (from kaguya) that he would eventually be replaced by her. So I'm Okay with the latest chapter and direction of the manga.


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## Tony Lou (Jun 5, 2014)

As it stands right now, I'm happy as long as Madara returns so the character may get a real conclusion.


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## epyoncloud (Jun 5, 2014)

Madara is not dead, but he will be forever remembered as the one soloed by a nameless fodder woman. The shame of it all.


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## Tony Lou (Jun 5, 2014)

epyoncloud said:


> Madara is not dead, but he will be forever remembered as the one soloed by a nameless fodder woman. The shame of it all.



This is what I'm going to remember him for.


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## T-Bag (Jun 5, 2014)

epyoncloud said:


> Madara is not dead, but he will be forever remembered as the one soloed by a nameless fodder woman. The shame of it all.



good thing she's a fodder and no one cares. which means people wont even remember how he lost a month from now


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## PikaCheeka (Jun 5, 2014)

Skimming replies. Going to address two ridiculous ideas that a couple of people here repeatedly bring up.

1) The idea that we should "give Kaguya a chance" and that she is obviously going to be filled in. I really shouldn't have to explain that that...isn't the issue here. The issue is that she is a brand new character, with no hint of her existence whatsoever prior to last fall. For a character as important as the big bad, there needs to be some element of her existence, some main thread, some buildup, before they randomly pop up in the final stretch of the manga. There's no getting around this. We can pause and have a 20-chapter Kaguya gaiden now and it won't fix this problem because she was just never around before now. The problem is in the past, not the future. It can't be fixed. Comparing this to Pain is absurd because a) Pain had appearances and lines for years before he actively fought, b) Pain was presented as the head of Akatsuki from early on so we knew he would be important and c) Pain fought Jiraiya before he fought Naruto, and in that fight we learned quite a bit about him. The comparisons some people try to make are baffling.

2) The idea that Kaguya (or Black Zetsu) "saved" Madara at VotE. Total unequivocal bullshit. If Kishimoto tries to write this in, it's a massive retcon. This is entirely implausible for many reasons:

a)She very, very, very likely was sealed away, and not on this planet, at the time of VotE. I don't see how she could plausibly have been around prior to Madara summoning the Gedo.
b) Madara was canonically stated to have survived by a jutsu and we have no reason to believe otherwise.
c) Madara has at least one unknown sharingan jutsu to be revealed and this will more than likely be shown, or at least explained.
d) Madara seemed to have planned an escape route at VotE, based on his last words.
e) Madara clearly had to heal/take care of himself after VotE, seeing as he healed himself with Hashirama’s DNA (on-panel, pretty much) and still ended up being weakened by it, so obviously there was no stellar assistance going on.
f) Madara received no immediate power-ups after VotE, rendering any chance for divine assistance extremely unlikely. He awoke his Rinnegan naturally several decades later.
g) The RS, Indra, and Ashura have no physical presence in the manga, and prior to very recently Kaguya didn't either; it’s ridiculous to think she was actually there at VotE as a person. Even as BZ, it's an asspull, seeing as saw the creation of BZ decades later.
h) Madara had extremely limited knowledge of her.
i) If Kaguya had a part in Madara's life that early on, surely all of this would have been set in motion a very, very long time ago unless she is a total idiot and didn't see the 10000 opportunities that passed her way when Madara wasn't yet crippled.
j) Limbo, while a Rinnegan jutsu, was a very big hint/heavy foreshadowing. Clearly, clones exist that end up transferring damage back to you. 


So unless you think Kaguya time-traveled back to VotE because she knew Madara was injured then, picked up his body and dumped him in a cave with no attempt to assist or heal him, and then just left for a while... well I'm not sure how anyone thinks this make sense at all? Again, Kishi may try to write this shit in, but it makes no sense whatsoever. I know some people just eat up whatever he gives them but that is beyond moronic to the point of being inconceivable. Trying to shove her into the timeline that far back is not only entirely unnecessary (what's wrong with Madara using his hidden MS jutsu to help himself?), but severely illogical.


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## takL (Jun 5, 2014)

to sum up maddy dif will be back, ok?


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## ZE (Jun 5, 2014)

Even if Madara returns, Kishi isn't gonna make him fight Naruto and Sasuke again. So yes, Kishi did rob us of a good Madara vs Naruto and Sasuke fight, and that isn't gonna be fixed. All we got was Sasuke cutting Madara in half and a bunch of meteorites being destroyed - that's all that happened. Even Obito vs Naruto and the alliance could be said to be a better fight.


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## Orochibuto (Jun 5, 2014)

Well at least there is the consolation Madara had a badass death; I know is not a lot; but hey its something.


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## PikaCheeka (Jun 5, 2014)

ZE said:


> Even if Madara returns, Kishi isn't gonna make him fight Naruto and Sasuke again. So yes, Kishi did rob us of a good Madara vs Naruto and Sasuke fight, and that isn't gonna be fixed. All we got was Sasuke cutting Madara in half and a bunch of meteorites being destroyed - that's all that happened. Even Obito vs Naruto and the alliance could be said to be a better fight.



Wow I actually agree with ZE in this thread. And Seto Kaiba. Now we know there is a problem. 

This is such a ridiculous letdown though. I know even a lot of Madara haters were looking forward to this. The dude killed off both Naruto and Sasuke temporarily and he doesn't even end up getting to have a proper fight with them? They seriously only fought for about a chapter, and Madara wasn't even so much engaging them as he was just avoiding them until he could get his eye back.

If you're going to build up a fight with a villain for 6 years (even ignoring the VotE comments in Part 1, when Itachi told Sasuke that Madara still lived that was a massive hint that he and Sasuke were going to have a showdown eventually), don't just fucking drop it after one chapter. Even that dumb comment from Hashirama about Sasuke being like Izuna and being able to stop Madara because of it was thrown out and that was within the last 20 months.  

I do think Madara will make a comeback, but it's going to be as the pissed off "good guy" who is willing to destroy himself to bring Kaguya down so that the good guys don't get blood on their hands. I'd be very surprised if he ended up overtaking her and then went right back to being a villain. Pleased, but extremely surprised. 

We all got screwed out of a fight that has been consistently and regularly hyped for over six solid years.


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## Lammy (Jun 5, 2014)

To be fair, most of Sasuke's benchmarks have been screwed out of a "proper fight". Orochimaru, Deidara, Itachi, Danzou, Raikage. 

Madara got off lightly. If he gets to stay gone, out of no mistake of his own except for his sheer ambition, and simply because of a powerfuller Kaguya- then I think that's a fantastic way to go and good writing.

You're confusing proper send off's like Obito, Pain etc as NARUTO'S benchmarks, and they got the regular talk no jutsus. (which, btw, Madara is still applicable for...)


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## Arles Celes (Jun 5, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> Skimming replies. Going to address two ridiculous ideas that a couple of people here repeatedly bring up.
> 
> 1) The idea that we should "give Kaguya a chance" and that she is obviously going to be filled in. I really shouldn't have to explain that that...isn't the issue here. The issue is that she is a brand new character, with no hint of her existence whatsoever prior to last fall. For a character as important as the big bad, there needs to be some element of her existence, some main thread, some buildup, before they randomly pop up in the final stretch of the manga. There's no getting around this. We can pause and have a 20-chapter Kaguya gaiden now and it won't fix this problem because she was just never around before now. The problem is in the past, not the future. It can't be fixed. Comparing this to Pain is absurd because a) Pain had appearances and lines for years before he actively fought, b) Pain was presented as the head of Akatsuki from early on so we knew he would be important and c) Pain fought Jiraiya before he fought Naruto, and in that fight we learned quite a bit about him. The comparisons some people try to make are baffling.
> 
> .



Not every villain in this manga had build up before he made an appearance. Oro for instance was not alluded in the Zabuza and Haku arc before he made his appearance. Kabuto as well had no build up before appearing "officially". Kishi loves to make villains appear in flashbacks or simply by being mentioned prior to their actual showing but not always. Instead of dragging Kaguya's references for years, Kishi only limited it to like 8-10 months.

And Kaguya IF Kishi decides to keep her for 100-200 chapters, could get enough characterization to be a legitimate villain. It all comes down how long Kishi wishes the manga to go and how long he plans Kaguya's role to go as well. IF she dies within 15-20 chapters and we do not get a final showdown between Madara and Naruto/Sasuke then indeed it would be awful. IF she sticks around for much longer and her role is expanded then said problem would be fixed. Granted it will still be a shame to how short was the battle between Naruto/Sasuke and Madara but the latter would probably still get a big role to play in the future alongside Obito.

Of course many hate the power escalation and just want the manga to end so there is that too...

Personally I think that dispatching a mayor baddie like Madara like that was rather lame of Kishi though Kaguya herself is still a blank canvas in my eyes. She could become an awful character or an interesting one. A sob story or a background of butthurtness highly likely but we will see...


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## Gabe (Jun 5, 2014)

The thing about madara saving himself or being helped is at the vote is an interesting subject. That is why we always have needed a flashback of the fight in madaras perspective. But one thing is for sure, Hashirama seemed to have sensed or notice someone/something un top of the mountain after he stabbed madara. That needs to be explained.


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## ZE (Jun 5, 2014)

To off Madara like this, Kishi should've given us a good Madara fight first. He foreshadowed a Madara vs Sasuke fight that never happened. He then foreshadowed a Madara vs Naruto and Sasuke fight, making us believe it was gonna be the fight to end all fights, the Freeza vs Goku of Naruto - but we got none of that. He even off-paneled Madara fighting Hashirama. 

This reminds me of the Ichigo vs Aizen fight. Ichigo shows up, pwns Aizen, transforms and one-shots - then Aizen is sealed by Urahara. A fight foreshadowed for more than 300 chapters ending like that was freaking stupid. The same could be said for Madara vs Naruto and Sasuke. 

I like that Kaguya showed up, and I expected her to usurp Madara's position as the main villain, but I didn't expect her to do so at the cost of a good Madara fight because I thought Kishimoto knew how expected Madara fighting Naruto, and above all, Sasuke, was to the fans. In the end, it's impossible not to be disappointed seeing how the Madara fight didn't live up to the expectations. I mean, it shouldn't even be in the top 20 of the best Naruto fights.


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## Lammy (Jun 5, 2014)

Guys, we had a *good *Madara fight! And it was also a long and boring one!

It lasted 2 years. Madara beat the shit out of everyone. He nearly killed our two main guys. Gai beat the shit out of him. Then our guys got power ups. And they beat Madara. And we found some cool stuff up about limbo and some weird Sasuke teleportation powers. The end. Bye Madara! He only needs an epilogue with Hashirama now.

It was clear Madara was no longer fighting as himself no more, and it's Kaguya's power. New character. New possibilities. Believe it!


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 5, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> Not every villain in this manga had build up before he made an appearance. Oro for instance was not alluded in the Zabuza and Haku arc before he made his appearance. Kabuto as well had no build up before appearing "officially". Kishi loves to make villains appear in flashbacks or simply by being mentioned prior to their actual showing but not always. Instead of dragging Kaguya's references for years, Kishi only limited it to like 8-10 months.



Wrong, wrong, wrong. Orochimaru was alluded to throughout the entire Chunin Exams arc so what the hell are you people even talking about here? He was constantly reference and his existence made known before he even made his big move. Hell, it is this same arc that we learned of Itachi and his superiority to Orochimaru. So not only was Orochimaru built up as an antagonistic force by the conclusion of the arc, there was building up for greater ones at work too. When we were first introduced to Akatsuki, we KNEW Kisame and Itachi were simply one of many, and since Shonen typically goes this way that whomever the leader was had to have been the strongest. The leader whom we were acquainted with at the end of Part I.

What the heck "dragging it for years"? How about, you know actually that being proper build up he used to give his antagonists? He gave them pathetic send-offs but one thing Kishi did contrast to now, is build them up. I can't believe people are seriously trying to praise the way Kaguya was introduced as being good writing, _by citing the way the other antagonists were introduced in contrast?_


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## Chaelius (Jun 5, 2014)

That much is true, I had been waiting for Madara vs Sasuke ever since they were shown as opposites in that chained Kyuubi spread, there was loads of other hints then there was the "We will defeat you!";"Get ready, Madara!" statements and they didn't even fight , barely a warm up, for all the sins a writer can commit, and Kishi has many, skipping on a hyped fight is probably the biggest one for shonen battle manga.


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## Arles Celes (Jun 5, 2014)

Lammy said:


> Guys, we had a *good *Madara fight! And it was also a long and boring one!
> 
> It lasted 2 years. Madara beat the shit out of everyone. He nearly killed our two main guys. Gai beat the shit out of him. Then our guys got power ups. And they beat Madara. And we found some cool stuff up about limbo and some weird Sasuke teleportation powers. The end. Bye Madara! He only needs an epilogue with Hashirama now.
> 
> It was clear Madara was no longer fighting as himself no more, and it's Kaguya's power. New character. New possibilities. Believe it!



Eh, Madara owning everyone with barely any effort cannot be called a "fight".

Neither Naruto and Sasuke effortlessly owning Madara back.

When Madara got his rinnegan back I expected finally a well matched battle without one sided stomping anymore.

Instead we got 1(literally ONE) chapter for Madara to show how powerful his other rinnegan did make him...and then it was over.

Will Kaguya COMPLETELY stomp everyone for 99% of the time only to get COMPLETELY stomped back when Naruto and Sasuke get ready to take her on? Hopefully not...



Seto Kaiba said:


> Wrong, wrong, wrong. Orochimaru was alluded to throughout the entire Chunin Exams arc so what the hell are you people even talking about here? He was constantly reference and his existence made known before he even made his big move. Hell, it is this same arc that we learned of Itachi and his superiority to Orochimaru. So not only was Orochimaru built up as an antagonistic force by the conclusion of the arc, there was building up for greater ones at work too. When we were first introduced to Akatsuki, we KNEW Kisame and Itachi were simply one of many, and since Shonen typically goes this way that whomever the leader was had to have been the strongest. The leader whom we were acquainted with at the end of Part I.
> 
> What the heck "dragging it for years"? How about, you know actually that being proper build up he used to give his antagonists? He gave them pathetic send-offs but one thing Kishi did contrast to now, is build them up. I can't believe people are seriously trying to praise the way Kaguya was introduced as being good writing, _by citing the way the other antagonists were introduced in contrast?_



Actually we only heard his name for the first time AFTER he already engaged Naruto and Sasuke in battle. And we saw his full face when he engaged Anko which was no longer than 10 chapters later. Kaguya was build up for 30 chapters or so which makes it a bit longer than what Oro got.

Granted, I agree that offing Madara like that without a proper climatic conclusion WAS bad. Kaguya taking over like a true hidden final boss in an rpg before Madara was properly defeated was quite lame.

Not counting that, Kaguya's biggest flaw(till now) is simply prolonging this war. Her character is neither good nor bad as she barely made her appearance outside of flashbacks.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 5, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> Eh, Madara owning everyone with barely any effort cannot be called a "fight".
> 
> Neither Naruto and Sasuke effortlessly owning Madara back.
> 
> ...



Yeah. About that. 

Madara was ridiculous with his rikudou sage power-up, and I am finding it very odd many those complaining about that now are cheering an even more broken character in Kaguya being introduced. Which means an even more ridiculous asspull power-up has to be pulled out with Naruto and Sasuke to overcome her.

How can you expect a fresh start in an already stale arc, with a character introduced in an already stale man-behind-the-man fashion this manga has done a few too many times already? Three times....three. That is how many in this arc alone the primary antagonist has changed hands.


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## Lammy (Jun 5, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> Eh, Madara owning everyone with barely any effort cannot be called a "fight".
> 
> Neither Naruto and Sasuke effortlessly owning Madara back.
> 
> When Madara got his rinnegan back I expected finally a well matched battle without one sided stomping anymore.



Dude... every fight has involved an eventual one sided stomping due to character power up or the release of a previously unseen/unfinished jutsu. Right down to the first chapter against Mizuki. It hasn't changed in the past 13 years I've been reading Naruto.

My biggest problem so far in the latest chapters is there's been no breaks or downtime... this manga day has been escalating like crrrazaay...


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## Arles Celes (Jun 5, 2014)

Lammy said:


> Dude... every fight has involved an eventual one sided stomping due to character power up or the release of a previously unseen/unfinished jutsu. Right down to the first chapter against Mizuki. It hasn't changed in the past 13 years I've been reading Naruto.
> 
> My biggest problem so far in the latest chapters is there's been no breaks or downtime... this manga day has been escalating like crrrazaay...



Naruto Vs Sasuke in part 1 was quite even. So was Sasuke Vs Deidara or Naruto Vs Pain. Or even Sasuke VS Danzou.

Everyone in said fights had better and worse moments. It wasn't just one guy owning all the time.


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## Lammy (Jun 5, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> Naruto Vs Sasuke in part 1 was quite even. So was Sasuke Vs Deidara or Naruto Vs Pain. Or even Sasuke VS Danzou.
> 
> Everyone in said fights had better and worse moments. It wasn't just one guy owning all the time.




Naruto and Sasuke was even, and this is why I'm most pumped for their eventual battle.

However. I beg you to re-consider and read the other fights again. Sasuke vs Deidara was cut short by random suicide Deidara. Deidara *should* had been winning most of the fight. Sure, Sasuke used lightning element to deactivate some of the earthly bombings and genjutsu, but I would argue that the counter to Limbo and blocking Madara's attacks is more exciting.

Pain also was consistently winning, and aside from making Naruto really pissed off, Pain got hoodwinked as usual by shadowclone rasengan in one chapter. 

Sasuke vs Danzou was not even, it was just bizare the way Danzou was throwing away Izanagi like that. 

One thing I do think the Deidara and Pain and Danzou battles were better... they were overall much shorter than the long dragged out Madara fight(s)

And Kaguya taking over Madara is much more better than Deidara/Danzou/Nagato killing themselves. Funny you mention your favourite alternatives were the ones that ended in one chapter suicide jutsus.


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## ZE (Jun 5, 2014)

There's also:

Jiraiya vs Pain
Gaara vs Lee
Gaara vs Kimimaro
Kakuzu vs Kakashi and co
Hashirama vs Madara
Naruto vs Gaara
Oro vs Hiruzen


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## Milliardo (Jun 5, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> Not every villain in this manga had build up before he made an appearance. Oro for instance was not alluded in the Zabuza and Haku arc before he made his appearance. Kabuto as well had no build up before appearing "officially". Kishi loves to make villains appear in flashbacks or simply by being mentioned prior to their actual showing but not always. Instead of dragging Kaguya's references for years, Kishi only limited it to like 8-10 months.



this is the end villain bro people want them to be established for years in advance
throughout the story not 20 minutes in and a couple of months real time...

why is that so hard for you to understand? thats the way its suppose to be.. jesus its like you people can't grasp this..



Arles Celes said:


> And Kaguya IF Kishi decides to keep her for 100-200 chapters, could get enough characterization to be a legitimate villain. It all comes down how long Kishi wishes the manga to go and how long he plans Kaguya's role to go as well. IF she dies within 15-20 chapters and we do not get a final showdown between Madara and Naruto/Sasuke then indeed it would be awful. IF she sticks around for much longer and her role is expanded then said problem would be fixed. Granted it will still be a shame to how short was the battle between Naruto/Sasuke and Madara but the latter would probably still get a big role to play in the future alongside Obito.
> 
> Of course many hate the power escalation and just want the manga to end so there is that too...


 so we should wait another 4 years so kishi can establish kaguya even though the war has already been ass dragged 4 years already? wow, yea that will save the manga...




Arles Celes said:


> Personally I think that dispatching a mayor baddie like Madara like that was rather lame of Kishi though *Kaguya herself is still a blank canvas in my eyes.* She could become an awful character or an *interesting one*. A sob story or a background of butthurtness highly likely but we will see...


i'm guessing endless fighting is your thing and you don't care how long drawn out the manga is so long as cool powers exist with the next fad character.

do people really want this manga to go on for another 3-5 years? damn, i've underestimated some of you.. apparently some want this to be a life event..


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## Lammy (Jun 5, 2014)

ZE said:


> There's also:
> Jiraiya vs Pain
> Gaara vs Lee
> Hashirama vs Madara
> Oro vs Hiruzen



I also really like all of Shikamaru's fights.

Funny how the most satisfying and shortest most even fights are with the side characters...


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## Arles Celes (Jun 5, 2014)

Lammy said:


> Naruto and Sasuke was even, and this is why I'm most pumped for their eventual battle.
> 
> However. I beg you to re-consider and read the other fights again. Sasuke vs Deidara was cut short by random suicide Deidara. Deidara *should* had been winning most of the fight. Sure, Sasuke used lightning element to deactivate some of the earthly bombings and genjutsu, but I would argue that the counter to Limbo and blocking Madara's attacks is more exciting.
> 
> ...



Sasuke VS Deidara started with the former pushing the latter to change his strategy due to Sasuke's extreme mastery of shunshin. Then Deidara got the upper hand with C2 till Sasuke figured its weakness pinned Deidara with huge shurikens to make him fall into mines.  He lost a wing though. At the end of the fight both were hurt and exhausted. It wasn't a fresh Deidara killing himself before the fight even started.

Naruto in SM was actually owning Pain's bodies with ease till Pain did put his shit together when Deva got his power back and turned the tables. Then their final clash with Naruto trying to overcome Shinra Tensei time limit weakness while Deva did nicely hold his own and force him to use all of his remaining SM to take him on was quite nice IMO.

Sasuke VS Danzou was a battle of stamina and tactics. Danzou was lacking in offensive power to bypass Susanoo but Sasuke couldn't keep it activated all time and so it left him open for Danzou's "surprise" attacks. The battle ended with both of them exhausted and gravely wounded.

Madara Vs all the good guys was initially a one sided stomp once Madara got his rinnegan eye. BM Naruto and his bijuu backup were easily owned with one shot of Limbo and so was Sasuke. Tobirama was off paneled even. Then came Guy and finally things looked more even though we saw mostly Guy doing the ownage. Still...we saw them both(including Guy) quite damaged and the battle ended with each of them close to death with Madara surviving only due to reg. Then we got current Naruto and Sasuke kicking Madara all over without him even so much as scratching them. And now we got a much stronger enemy who will probably kick them all over till they power up somehow.

Hardly a well matched battle.


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## Lammy (Jun 5, 2014)

No doubt the anime will add taijutsu and extra filler to Gai+Sasuke+Naruto vs Madara so if you guys are wanting to see more landscape altering destruction back and forth between these guys...


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## Orochibuto (Jun 5, 2014)

Pika at least give her a chance; then decide.

You are pre judging her.


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## Sete (Jun 5, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> Holy shit this got huge.
> 
> *Sorry in advance to everyone who posted who I may not reply to, for good or bad.* Ditching this place for 36 hours after posting it was a bad idea.
> 
> ...



Jenova had no background until she appeared mid game. Sephirot was the main baddy up until there.

People saying Madara should have a good fight. he fought the 4 kages. He fought Naruto and company. he fought Hashi he fought Tobirama he fought guy and he fought Nardo and sauce with power ups again yes it was short-lived its a pity.
He had a lot of fights, it was dragging a bit now. Naruto would have made 4 clones to fight his shadows and him and sauce would win the fight.
Nothing spectacular there.
This changed everything.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 5, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> Pika at least give her a chance; then decide.
> 
> You are pre judging her.



That is a ridiculous thing to say at this point in the story and what role Kaguya is playing here.


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## Sete (Jun 5, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> That is a ridiculous thing to say at this point in the story and what role Kaguya is playing here.



So things didn't go according to your predictions of Nardo and Sauce defeating Madara then fight one another. So its bad writing.
Last I saw it seems her role was of villain.
It will be expanded next few chapters.
And hey don't like don't read. Its free anyway.


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## celebrei (Jun 5, 2014)

Sete said:


> So things didn't go according to your predictions of Nardo and Sauce defeating Madara then fight one another. So its bad writing.
> Last I saw it seems her role was of villain.
> It will be expanded next few chapters.
> And hey don't like don't read. Its free anyway.



It's always bad writing for them when the story didn't turn out in their favor 

Tobi was not Izuna = Kishi bad writing

Madara was Kaguya's puppet = Omg Kishi you suck


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## T-Bag (Jun 5, 2014)

Sete said:


> So things didn't go according to your predictions of Nardo and Sauce defeating Madara then fight one another. So its bad writing.
> Last I saw it seems her role was of villain.
> It will be expanded next few chapters.
> And hey don't like don't read. Its free anyway.



kishi loves good loyal and dedicate  costumers like you and celebrei . if only everybody thought the way u did, he'd be the happiest man alive


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jun 5, 2014)

Sete said:


> So things didn't go according to your predictions of Nardo and Sauce defeating Madara then fight one another. So its bad writing.
> Last I saw it seems her role was of villain.
> It will be expanded next few chapters.
> And hey don't like don't read. Its free anyway.





celebrei said:


> It's always bad writing for them when the story didn't turn out in their favor
> 
> Tobi was not Izuna = Kishi bad writing
> 
> Madara was Kaguya's puppet = Omg Kishi you suck





Seto Kaiba said:


> You can set proper foundations, but successfully execute unpredictable turns. Also, I would hardly call the "unpredictable nature" of this series as a highlight of its quality, considering where it often comes from. Whether the expected or the unexpected happens is ultimately irrelevant to how people will judge the quality of writing. Most stories people do not expect certain things and hail them as being wonderfull executed. You do not acquaint yourself with a new story knowing what's going to happen next, but many times you grow to enjoy it. So I don't think that's a valid point to make here. People know what they want, and that is simply good writing. It seems like a lot of apologists in this section these days treat wanting that as a bad thing.



You and celebrei are hard of reading, you've already made that clear.

To add, Madara wasn't and would never have been, my first choice for primary antagonist. I actually preferred that he remain a relic of the past, so for an older character that sentiment would be the same. Nonetheless, he was set up for years, I can't deny that. I was willing to settle on a character that had at least something of that, so long as it meant an end to this arc. He was the last viable antagonist that did.


----------



## Stan Lee (Jun 5, 2014)

Where was it stated that Madara used "a jutsu" to escape death at VOTE?


----------



## T-Bag (Jun 5, 2014)

Zero Requiem said:


> Where was it stated that Madara used "a jutsu" to escape death at VOTE?



data book 3


----------



## celebrei (Jun 5, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> You and celebrei are hard of reading, you've already made that clear.
> 
> To add, Madara wasn't and would never have been, my first choice for primary antagonist. I actually preferred that he remain a relic of the past, so for an older character that sentiment would be the same. Nonetheless, he was set up for years, I can't deny that. I was willing to settle on a character that had at least something of that, so long as it meant an end to this arc. He was the last viable antagonist that did.



Oh balderdash! Madara was barely a passing mention back in part 1and early Shippuden, so don't give us this crap that he was set up for years and years ago because he wasn't.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jun 5, 2014)

Since Sete failed to address my point. You guys that constantly talk of "give Kaguya a chance!", are being absurd. This is the closing act of the story. The arc is already drawn out as it is. The main antagonist has changed hands three times already, and Kaguya has nowhere near the foundation the other antagonists had. As flawed as they were at least one could say there was a foundation behind them, the same can't be said to Kaguya who we've only just become acquainted to in contrast. You cannot complain that people aren't giving her a chance on the basis that she isn't fleshed out yet when the story has gone this far and she is playing such a role in its closing.


----------



## BlazingInferno (Jun 5, 2014)

T-Bag said:


> data book 3



After the Obito unmasking, Kishi has proven not all databook info mean shit.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jun 5, 2014)

celebrei said:


> Oh balderdash! Madara was barely a passing mention back in part 1and early Shippuden, so don't give us this crap that he was set up for years and years ago because he wasn't.



He was referenced at the end of Part I as the man who helped found and opposed Konoha, this is a fact you can't argue. Primarily, how that he and Hashirama were much like Naruto and Sasuke.

He was referenced by Kyuubi early in Part II, this is also a fact you can't argue, again in relation to Sasuke. 

Between the time where Tobi masqueraded as he, and then theories were circulating on exactly who he was. Most people correctly guessed that he was the figure which stood opposite the first Hokage. 

His basic backstory was given hundreds upon hundreds of chapters before he made a physical appearance. His legacy and abilities referenced dozens of chapters before he made his actual debut in the present time of the story.

Just say you don't want me to state facts, but regardless of your inability to process them I will. Again, since you've probably missed it....I would have preferred Madara to be a relic of the past. For Kaguya in that regard I feel no different. However the major difference here is Madara actually has significant setup for his appearance in the story whereas Kaguya does not.


----------



## Stan Lee (Jun 5, 2014)

T-Bag said:


> data book 3



Wasn't that released back when Obito was posing as Madara? Thus long before the VOTE fight was shown on panel?


----------



## T-Bag (Jun 5, 2014)

Zero Requiem said:


> Wasn't that released back when Obito was posing as Madara?



Yeah. but how does that change anything?


----------



## Weapon (Jun 5, 2014)

T-Bag said:


> Yeah. but how does that change anything?



Yeah, I don't think it should change anything. Although at this point of time It's starting to feel as if it wasn't a Jutsu. His trump card wasn't anything relatable to what could of happened at VOTE and I doubt they had any clue during DB3 writing.


----------



## T-Bag (Jun 5, 2014)

the fight was skipped for a reason. the last thing they showed  before it skipped was madara's sharingan in close zoom.

it had to be a jutsu, a very powerful one. one does not simply get away from hashirama like that


----------



## Weapon (Jun 5, 2014)

T-Bag said:


> the fight was skipped for a reason. the last thing they showed  before it skipped was madara's sharingan in close zoom.
> 
> it had to be a jutsu. one does not simply get away from hashirama like that



Really? Wtf. I don't remember the Sharingan panel. Okay I take back what I said. All I can remember from that sequence was Hashirama looking up and then back down at Madara.


----------



## Stan Lee (Jun 5, 2014)

We also saw an image of the moon on the same page as the eye. I doubt Hashi would fall for a genjustu and we that Madara was indeed stabbed through the heart.


----------



## Weapon (Jun 5, 2014)

Yeah, I just grabbed 65 and had a look. One page ends on his MS being activated and then the next panel is a sound effect with the moon showing. Moon is shown again two panels later. Very interesting considering Madara didn't do any noticable Dojutsu after the eye was used.


----------



## Orochibuto (Jun 5, 2014)

celebrei said:


> It's always bad writing for them when the story didn't turn out in their favor
> 
> Tobi was not Izuna = Kishi bad writing
> 
> Madara was Kaguya's puppet = Omg Kishi you suck



Dear God; how could anyone want fucking Izuna as Tobi; would had been boring as fuck.

Even parallel universe Sasuke or Madara horcrux would be better.


----------



## Nic (Jun 5, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> Holy shit this got huge.
> 
> *Sorry in advance to everyone who posted who I may not reply to, for good or bad.* Ditching this place for 36 hours after posting it was a bad idea.
> 
> ...



Not exactly sure why Jenova being relevant early on in the game is supposed to keep me from making the comparison to Kaguya.


----------



## celebrei (Jun 5, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> Dear God; how could anyone want fucking Izuna as Tobi; would had been boring as fuck.
> 
> Even parallel universe Sasuke or Madara horcrux would be better.



Because they want to portray Madara as the "genius" who revived his brother after awakening the Rinnegan to continue his plans aka more unrealistic Madara wanking.


----------



## Stan Lee (Jun 5, 2014)

Don't worry Madara will overpower Kaguya like Obito once Sasuke reaches him.


----------



## Mizura (Jun 5, 2014)

The problem is that you people have been trying to analyze a series logically, when in fact the author has shown no inclinations whatsoever of writing it in a logical manner. 

Instead he is trying to write the story in a way that Can't be logically predicted (because he doesn't want his story to be too predictable, I mean most writers don't want the readers to figure out everything in advance). That means randomly injecting new stuff and possibly creating plot-holes and power-scaling issues left and right. 

Some authors are more skilled at pulling this off than others, with clever foreshadowing early enough into the series. Kishimoto is not one of those authors. Instead he tries to tie up loose ends after making a mess earlier, and he doesn't do a very good job at  that either. We wouldn't have the current issues if he had properly foreshadowed Kaguya, for example, very early in the series.


----------



## Kai (Jun 5, 2014)

I see many people in this thread citing Madara's "development" and foreshadowing as a character over hundreds of chapters. I want you guys to not just skim over your memories as one big retrospection but to actually recall what was being foreshadowed and developed.

Madara's return to the manga? Madara's relation to Sasuke? Madara as one of the founding fathers?

Every person who argues with this stance talks as if we've come to know everything about Madara through his development of hundreds of chapters. Guess what? *Madara has been foreshadowed and progressed with us for hundreds of chapters and there is still a shitload about him we do not know, even to this day.*

Madara has lived one of the longest lives in the entire manga — probably the longest life journey of any character in this manga that we've been able to explore, and Kishi *still* has kept the lid shut on most of his life, even *after* the "FV" has taken center stage.

Seriously, what else can that tell you? What can you possibly expect when Kaguya suddenly takes over before Madara's life has been fully explored by the author?

Madara had external involvement in his life after Hashirama. 

This is just how the manga works. Flashbacks are given this way, not the other way around. During the fights and even after said character has passed.




			
				Pikacheeka said:
			
		

> 2) The idea that Kaguya (or Black Zetsu) "saved" Madara at VotE. Total unequivocal bullshit. If Kishimoto tries to write this in, it's a massive retcon. This is entirely implausible for many reasons:
> 
> a)She very, very, very likely was sealed away, and not on this planet, at the time of VotE. I don't see how she could plausibly have been around prior to Madara summoning the Gedo.
> b) Madara was canonically stated to have survived by a jutsu and we have no reason to believe otherwise.
> ...


Example: Hagoromo appearing completely out of random, offering free power ups.

You see why trying to set the parameters for the "logical truth" doesn't matter in regards to this?

The fact is we do not know what happened immediately succeeding Madara's "death" at VOTE. How can a retcon be possible if such a thing *was never revealed?* There's space that Kishi can fill whatever the hell he wants. Again, let me reiterate the example where Kishimoto gave no fucks bringing in Hagoromo to hand out free power ups like party favors, and bounce (*in the middle of war*) and you don't think he won't hesitate to set Kaguya up in an event he has never revealed even to this day, yet wants us to be aware a mysterious phenomenon occurred?

If what Hashirama noticed has any part to play, then there may have been something there that Madara had nothing to do with.


----------



## Invictus-Kun (Jun 5, 2014)

Still dissapointments for previous chapter


----------



## CuteJuubi (Jun 5, 2014)

Kai said:


> I see many people in this thread citing Madara's "development" and foreshadowing as a character over hundreds of chapters. I want you guys to not just skim over your memories as one big retrospection but to actually recall what was being foreshadowed.
> 
> Madara's return to the manga? Madara's relation to Sasuke? Madara as one of the founding fathers?
> 
> ...



It's highly likely that Kaguya's influence somehow saved Madara in VotE, so this wasn't a retcon but was actually foreshadowed.


----------



## BlazingInferno (Jun 5, 2014)

Looks like this thread is about die. I've actually enjoyed some of comments tbh.


----------



## xXMUGIWARAXx (Jun 6, 2014)

This thread is stupid. Your mad that things didn't go the way you wanted or expected and your favorite character became fodder and a puppet. Ive seen you talk down to other peoples favorite characters but now that its madara looking stupid you all of a sudden want to bash kishi..lmao cry me a river. Most of the other villains received the same treatment from kishi. Despite being hyped to be so strong they went out terribly like Nagato, obito, kabuto, and Oro. At the end of the day Madara was always a failure and puppet so there you go


----------



## PikaCheeka (Jun 6, 2014)

Nic said:


> Not exactly sure why Jenova being relevant early on in the game is supposed to keep me from making the comparison to Kaguya.



Not exactly sure why you don't think prevalent relevance throughout the story isn't important for a character of this magnitude.



Kai said:


> I see many people in this thread citing Madara's "development" and foreshadowing as a character over hundreds of chapters. I want you guys to not just skim over your memories as one big retrospection but to actually recall what was being foreshadowed and developed.
> 
> Madara's return to the manga? Madara's relation to Sasuke? Madara as one of the founding fathers?
> 
> ...



Randomly having Kaguya save Madara at VotE when it was already established that he did it himself and there are perfectly reasonable explanations for how he did it himself is just senselessly trashing on his character even further than Kishi already has at this point. It makes no sense for the _many_ reasons I explained and you were unable to refute a single one of my points.

Creating a brand-new character in the end game and having her fill-in/explain the remaining "mysteries" of the manga despite them being very easily explained (and hinted at) by other means in an attempt to make her look relevant/planned is despicable writing. It was bad enough when Kishimoto randomly brought back the "Byakugan related to Sharingan" thing with her (never mind that it was in a contradictory manner; he tied them together again!), as well as very obvious that he just threw it in there as a last-minute thing. Of course, some people will swallow it up and think it meant he planned her 10-15 years ago, which is exactly what he hopes you will think, but the truth of the matter is that if she was actually tied to these events, she should have had some level of presence much earlier in the story. I'm sure if we get some asspull about her being tied to Kimimaro's clan, people will think that means she was planned that far back as well (instead of Kishi just picking a name and a vaguely similar character design from a now-irrelevant Part 1 character in hopes to "tie" her back into the plot). 

Madara never even got his own flashback. Depriving him of that just so Kaguya can go "Oh yea I planned his whole life teehee here I will fill in the holes" is bizarre, gross character butchering for the sole purpose of Kishi trying to save face by making her look planned. In reality, it makes no sense whatsoever because why the hell would she waste her time telling Madara's story?

Yes, his survival at VotE was one of his big mysteries but it was heavily implied, even stated, that he used a jutsu and saved himself. Others have pointed out how the manga zoomed in on his eye and had a sound effect and everything, as well. He got some of Hashirama's DNA in that fight. We saw him attempt to heal himself. We saw him linger in pain for decades before he was finally able to awaken the Sharingan. We saw him summon the Gedo Mezo _after_ this, and we saw him create Black Zetsu still later. There was never the slightest hint of Madara ever having assistance. *Ever.* Really, between Madara's eyes getting panel-time at VotE as they did and the fact that Kaguya should logically have been sealed in the moon at the time, this idea of her saving him at VotE really should not even exist. Unfortunately, given the way this manga has gone, I can't rule this notion out entirely, but it is unequivocally a bullshit retcon. No, we don't need to have seen how Madara survived in explicit detail for it to be a retcon. We have seen enough, were told enough, and know enough about Madara to know it would be a retcon.

*There are no mysteries in this manga that can not be explained by another character who already has established ties to the event and a hinted explanation. I repeat, randomly having Kaguya fill all those mysteries in, blowing things out of proportion, depriving other characters of agency and contradicting established facts for the sole purpose of trying to have her look "planned" is just atrocious. *I know some people who just accept everything given to them and/or don't read extensively and have little to compare this to will be fine with it, but a decent percentage of the readerbase aren't going to fall for that drivel.


----------



## MysteriousD (Jun 6, 2014)

Awww the mods deleted my previous Pro-Naruto post...   

Well then Pika.. if you seek to turn this into



With Naruto representing all of the NARUTO manga. Then flat out youll lose, without accomplishing much.


Madara was *a side character* and simply wasnt that important anymore to the story at large, Kaguya's time has come and Sasuke is the final battle; so that failure got his departure papers.

Besides a few fanatics like yourself, he was but a major annoyance and rule-breaker and to be honest...

I LOVE THE WAY KISHI DEALT WITH HIM :smb

He didnt deserve to fight anyone and the way he got sent away was pure justice. Minimal panels, almost 0 talking + BETRAYAL? 

Oh yes, these have been an absolute wonderful past few weeks 



xXMUGIWARAXx said:


> This thread is stupid. Your mad that things didn't go the way you wanted or expected and your favorite character became fodder and a puppet. *Ive seen you talk down to other peoples favorite characters* but now that its madara looking stupid you all of a sudden want to bash kishi..lmao cry me a river. Most of the other villains received the same treatment from kishi. Despite being hyped to be so strong they went out terribly like Nagato, obito, kabuto, and Oro. At the end of the day Madara was always a failure and puppet so there you go



Which is why ABSOLUTE ZERO mercy is given to the Madara-clan.

He stole powers and broke rules and now his bitch-ass has paid the ulitmate... shameful price.

Fodderism by Kishimoto and the punk never saw it coming, EVEN with SAGE MODE+ RINNEGAN 

Haha Im done here


----------



## T-Bag (Jun 6, 2014)

Zero Requiem said:


> We also saw an image of the moon on the same page as the eye. I doubt Hashi would fall for a genjustu and we that Madara was indeed stabbed through the heart.



"a jutsu known to madara, and him alone..."

obviously it was no ordinary jutsu.  there's no telling if it was a ninjutsu or genjutsu



Weapon said:


> Yeah, I just grabbed 65 and had a look. One page ends on his MS being activated and then the next panel is a sound effect with the moon showing. Moon is shown again two panels later. Very interesting considering Madara didn't do any noticable Dojutsu after the eye was used.



the jutsu's mechanics are  left mysterious on purpose. no one can say for sure how it works


----------



## Hiko Seijurou (Jun 6, 2014)

Yeah, this is weak, even by Kishimoto's standards. Having a chick all of a sudden becoming the 'big bad' makes no sense whatsoever and is weak writing. She has no development and no connection to ninja, which Hagoromo started. Kishimoto can't satisfy realists (aka 'sexists') or feminazis. Meh.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Jun 6, 2014)

sasusakucannon said:


> I still don't get Kaguya's character at all. She appeared out of nowhere with no foreshadowing whatsoever. Kaguya's so random.





Freedan said:


> And this fact has been established when? 2010? 2005? A character who is meant to encompass "everything" that happened in Naruto shouldn't have been mentioned for the first time within the last two months, *but within the first two months that the series started* i.e. year 1999. Part 1 did that with Minato, it did it with Hashirama, it did it with Orochimaru. Figure this: we didn't even get to know about Hagoromo until somewhere halfway in part 2, not to mention we only recently got to know his real name. I'm not exactly a huge fan of Madara, but OP has a point about Madara having had far more time to establish himself as the FV than Kaguya ever did.





Sauron said:


> I agree with every point OP made here. It's very stupid of Kishi to introduce just another villain to the table at this point of the story and even so suddenly. We are at the climax here with this final battle between good guys vs. Akatsuki. As I said last week, Madara would have been the perfect main villain here, as OP said, he had good backstory, character development, clear motive and goal etc. And Kishi even managed to make him seem like a real threat when he soloed the 5 Kage and even dropped a fucking meteorite! It's clear to most of us that he decided to replace Madara with Kaguya on the fly.
> 
> Madara is not my favorite character even though I think Edo Madara was the best thing that happened during the Shinobi World War arc but I can also tell that what Kishi just did here was abysmal writing on completely new level.





fallot said:


> I agree that a lot of people arent really apprecating the gravity of what has happened to this manga recently though. This guy is right, its unforgivably bad. It should go down in history as the worst trainwreck in a shonen manga ever, so clumsy, lame and sterile.





Amanda said:


> But this sudden new direction of the plot? I can't... are we really to see Naruto being turned into some alien story? I don't want to know what Kaguya wants that army for, and I hope Kishi never expands on it. I signed for a story about ninjas, not about rabbit aliens.





Tayimus said:


> But yes, I agree with the OP.  Madara was firmly established as the Final Villain, effectively forshadowed, with ties to everything, including the MCs.  In fact, I remember speaking with someone on here bout how, looking back on the manga as a whole, it felt that Madara was supposed to be revealed even earlier.  I personally feel that in very first versions of the story, Madara was actually supposed to be AL (Akatsuki Leader, what we referred to Pain before he was revealed) but somehow that angle got reworked.  And now it's been reworked again.  It's nothing terribly new.
> 
> Kaguya, in contrast to Madara, feels tacked on.  She was first mentioned 30 odd chapters ago.  For a character that's supposed to be the Final Villain, we've literally only known about her for less than 5% of the manga.





Freedan said:


> That's the problem. Madara was revealed to us, hyped, his role as FV foreshadowed long before he made his effective entrance, AND his relevance to the main characters, Naruto and Sasuke, made clear when they fought at the end of part 1 (altho said relevance changed along with Kishi as the story progressed). That's how long we've been given hints of Madara's influence on the story. His character has been fleshed out long before we actually got to see him. Kaguya's had none of that, which some of us find problematic.
> 
> This chapter is virtually the prime example of everything that's wrong with writing a story as you go along as opposed to planning it out over the long run (which is what I hear Oda has done with One Piece).





Golden Witch said:


> It took *15 years* for the Main Antagonist/Final Villain (unless something changes AGAIN) to be first shown and mentioned.After 15 years, nearing the end.
> He had over a decade worth of time to shape the Final Villain of the story, but choses to introduce someone completely new instead.
> Of course he can flesh her out now, but that doesn't excuse that he had years and years of time to do so before, yet he didn't and we're left with this mess.
> It's sloppy Author work.Straight up sloppy.
> And this coming from a Kaguya fanboy.





Tayimus said:


> This has been annoying me ever since I saw Kaguya's face in the sky.  If Hagaromo was aware of Madara.  Aware of Indra and Ashura. How the Hell was he not aware of Kaguya, the supposed "Ultimate Evil"?  How is it that he completely missed Madara being manipulated by her?  How could he not sense her Will inside Zetsu, inside MADARA?!
> 
> It's entirely too late to be fleshing out her character and backstory.  Mind you, I waited til this chapter to start questioning this.  I thought we'd get some answers but no, apparently not.  Anyway, you don't wait til the last minutes to introduce the Final Villain. It has to be forshadowed, and the 30 chapters since Kaguya's first mention does not equal a good foreshadowing.





gabzilla said:


> Kaguya's a badly done plot device, that cannot be denied, even if you saw it coming. It was sloppy.
> 
> Like her design and potential all you want, enjoy how Madara got trolled if you hated him so much, but let's not pretend Kishimoto didn't pull this out of his ass. Come one now.





dungsi27 said:


> And Kaguya, apart from her power level, is a very very bad final villain, with no back story whatsoever.
> 
> There are twists that makes you go "awwww" and admire the cleverness of the writer, then there are those that make you want to scream "wtf is this sh*t?"





Haruka Katana said:


> I am no Madara fan, nor do i care about him other than being somewhat amazed. But Kaguya? It was a terrible twist and seeing her out this chapter doesn't sit right to me.





Jeαnne said:


> regardless, this is bad writing. Kishi didnt introduce Kaguya early enough.





Bahamut Slayer said:


> I hate Madara but even I understand that this whole Kaguya thing is just bad writing.





Chaelius said:


> He should have put Kaguya on the Uchiha tablet back in part 1, have characters talk about a mythical godess in abstract terms and then give more concrete information and lore as her awakening draws closer if he wanted to use her as a big villain, this is just a bunch of rushed out of nowhere bullshit, reminds me of FF IV, moon people and all.





Miyoshi said:


> Everything is coming from way left field at this point. With no attachment to the characters how can we identify with or have any true connection to the character in order to make the series of events have more of an impact?
> 
> Kishi has officially began the new series, the introduction of all of these ancestors was the start of it.





Sauron said:


> You can't just pull out a villain from air and replace the main antagonist with her at this point of story.  Kishi should have introduced Kaguya a long time ago for this to be acceptable.
> ...
> Kishi went through a lot of chapters to make Madara gain his full might, and after finally becoming Juubi's Jinchuuriki and recovering both Rinnegans, one would except that he would now start his final battle against Naruto & Sasuke. But instead this happens.





Sora said:


> it doesn't matter if you hate Madara or not this really just came out of nowhere
> idc if madara was trolled or if he was a pawn
> Kishi could have hinted it *much *earlier that Kaguya was the one in charge the whole time
> to me it feels like Kishi made Kaguya just to get rid of Madara





jayjay32 said:


> Posting a reply out of respect for the effort taken in vocalizing some of my concerns.





CM Pope said:


> I agree with *PikaCheeka*. Even if you truly despise Madara in no way, shape or form is what we've witnessed good writing.
> ...
> It's sad, but this is basically the straw that broke the camels back for me personally as any enjoyment I once derived from this series is _dead_.
> ...
> It truly does boggle my mind that some people are excited at the prospect of a cardboard cut-out villain.





BlazingInferno said:


> I don't like the idea of Madara left undefeated and offed by a character like BZ. Nor the possibilities of there being galactic threats.





Abanikochan said:


> I feel like this manga is now being written by that alien conspiracist dude. It doesn't even feel like the same manga anymore.





ElementX said:


> This manga is a train wreck of epic proportions. This is like fan fiction levels of absurd.





The Prodigy said:


> I agree. The whole Juubi/Shinju tree thing... I didn't mind that. Kaguya eating the fruit and angering the Juubi. .. but Kaguya is now stronger than the Juubi by taking a small bit of its power? The order kishi went with that alone was confusing as hell and bad writing.





•Sharingan Squid• said:


> I fully agree with you, it's almost completely out of the blue and nonsensical as all hell. It's also ridiculous that what led up to that was Madara getting really just fucking lame plot treatment (right after "killing" Nardo and Sasque and becoming the JJ), such as him getting knocked around by a comic relief character and having a half-dead Obito actually pull chakra away from him.



Just quoting some I haven't replied to yet. Agree with all of you, though I do still want to hit some in detail.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Jun 6, 2014)

Milliardo said:


> i agree with pika this is manga has turned into dogshit. kishimoto is smearing shit on a page and selling it to you... only fanboys will love this shit and nurture it staying blind to the truth.
> 
> this is the end of the manga as we know it because kishimoto said naruto ends this year. so it is horrible just horrible to bring a character literally out of nowhere and make her final villain.  we've known the character for like 20 chapters and she literally has no connection to sasuke or naruto.  it feels greatly out of place.. people really can't shit on bleach after this because its on the same level. kishimoto admitted he didn't plan things out and it has been greatly shown in this war arc.
> 
> ...





Seto Kaiba said:


> You know, Madara would never have been my first choice for main/final villain. Obito definitely not. Yet they, Orochimaru, Deva Pain, Itachi, Sasuke or Kabuto would have been at least suitable for final villain for one reason: they had a personal relationship with the cast at large. They were established characters years in the making, the dynamics they had with characters we did care about made stand out too. When they did something evil it actually felt something was at stake, that even if you disliked them you were interested in how at least they would fail. I do not feel that with Kaguya, because she was very recently shoehorned in. She has no buildup, and for Kishi to try and do that now is just pathetic, so I understand your disappointment.





WolfPrinceKiba said:


> I agree for the most part. Mainly on Kaguya not having been given enough foreshadowing to be justified coming in this late, the abundant inconsistencies/retcons in her story and the ridiculousness of the whole build a white Zetsu army from the people of the world to fight some unknown battle that will undoubtedly be something stupid.


 (Aliens, clearly)



Vanadius said:


> First of all, I just want to say how appalled I am at the garbage Kishi has been giving us for the past few months.  Honestly, I am somewhat in a state of shock.  I've never seen writing this stupid.  I've never read anything this horrendously irrational.
> 
> Is this the end of Madara Uchiha?  This is how it goes down?  He gets backstabbed by Black Zetsu and is just absorbed/transformed into Kaguya?  It makes absolutely no sense.
> 
> I'm in no mood to write an entire analysis as to why this manga is completely worthless at this point.  Replacing Madara with Kaguya at this point serves what purpose exactly?  Ridiculous.  Now that Madara is gone, this manga has basically flatlined.   There are no other characters that are interesting or even remotely worth caring about.





Arya Stark said:


> Let's not forget that those who were child when the manga started are now well into their twenties and some of them didn't drop the book. Just like Harry Potter books, the manga should have reached a maturity with its audience.





Arya Stark said:


> This is supposed to be fun. But when author gives the "middle finger" you feel insulted.
> ...
> However I agree that Madara really got the worst send off, this is really really offensive to readers.





Luiz said:


> I believe there's a great deal of difference between quality and new.





Zerst?ren said:


> Seriously people, we got so much build up of Madara for Kaguya to just steal his place?
> 
> Be serious, this is just anti-Madara tards talking. Madara, like him or not, is a quality villain. At least half of the most awesome parts of the manga involved him.
> While Kaguya is cool design whise, and the fact that the most powerful entity ever was a woman, she lacks in some "manga aspects" as I like to call them: she was mentioned some chapters ago like a princess that wanted to end war, then as a princess who wanted to forcefuly end war and then as a paralel between her world and Madara's goal.
> ...





Moody said:


> i think he's outright disposed of the idea of foreshadowing and building core mechanics within his story. kaguya doesn't even make sense at the conceptual stage of the writing process.
> 
> a character with no visible connection to the main cast or even the main character, and the presence of every metaphysical deity-type yahoo we've seen for decades now.
> ... i can't even believe i'm saying this, but madara truly deserved better.





MisterJB said:


> You make a very good point.





eluna said:


> Great post Pika I read at all and have to agree with your point,Kishi just reach the low point of writting after this,I don't love Mada but I have admit was kinda sucks see him go like that,I wonder why I still attached to this manga



And all of these, too. +reps when I can.


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## Gilgamesh (Jun 6, 2014)

T-Bag said:


> "a jutsu known to madara, and him alone..."
> 
> obviously it was no ordinary jutsu.  there's no telling if it was a ninjutsu or genjutsu
> 
> ...



Dude the Databook is full of shit

And don't worry Weapon i C+P your post on calling out Pika on her bullshit


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## T-Bag (Jun 6, 2014)

Gilgamesh said:


> Dude the Databook is full of shit
> 
> And don't worry Weapon i C+P your post on calling out Pika on her bullshit



databook is basically the index/chapter reviews of the manga. 

you could say it's _outdated _since the manga has long past that, but calling it full of shit is going too far.  the event at VoTe is still a mystery so there is no telling yet


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## PikaCheeka (Jun 6, 2014)

Ah I am asking for a temporary lock until I can get caught up with some of these, so if you come here and it's locked, that's why!



T-Bag said:


> i think everyone deep inside knows this kind of writing is abysmally hazardous, but they disagree for the sake of appearances here on NF lol.
> 
> Anyway Pika, Madara was an entertaining character while he lasted



I still expect him to come back but I would figure his villain days are done. Then again, this manga is no longer possible to predict at all.



Sieves said:


> I agree with Hydro. Madara is special. We've been hearing about him and his villainy for years before he even appeared. Obito even masqueraded as him. And when he was introduced he was as fearsome as everybody expected. He soloed the alliance and brought even Naruto and Sasuke to their knees, pre juubi. I feel like its rare for a villain to actually live up to the hype, which is why his defeat was so unexpected and shocking, especially for his fans.



This. Madara already temporarily killed the heroes and performed MT. Anything Kaguya does is just going to come off as silly and anti-climactic unless she legitimately kills one of them and they stay dead.

I knew that the whole "oh Kaguya will take him over!" shit was a possibility, knew it as far back as it could be considered (all of like 2-3 months ago), but even for a shitty plot move, it was done badly. It was dumb enough as it was, but the execution was absolutely abysmal.



dungsi27 said:


> The main problem with Kaguya is that shes not built into the story shes thrown into it.
> 
> Its almost as if we are being treated with a filler now, and that is bad.
> 
> ...



This is the real problem. It's almost like this is the 2014 Shippuden movie we have been waiting for. Kishi just changed his mind and decided to stick it into the manga. She is very filler-ish and her total lack of relevance prior to this year is baffling. He can try to weave her relevance backwards in time all he wants but the fact remains: this manga existed for 14 years without even a hint of her existence.


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