# Zuko vs. Sasuke, power only



## Commander Shepard (Nov 14, 2007)

No, that's not an type-o... I left "Pre-Timeskip" out on purpose.  No joke.

A sheer power match between Zuko and Sasuke.  Neither can move their legs, and Sasuke can only use fire and lightning jutsu.


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## Pein (Nov 14, 2007)

Sasuke wins


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## Banhammer (Nov 14, 2007)

Neither can move?
Firebending depends on movement, alot

Now, if you say neither can displace themselves (change position) and sasuke only has fire and lightning jutsu's then Zuko wins.
Lightning gets redirected, Zuko's fire feat are bigger than Sasuke's


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## Grandmaster Kane (Nov 14, 2007)

Zuko wins

Naruto fireballs hurt people

Airbender fireballs kill people


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## ryne11 (Nov 14, 2007)

Gecko4lif said:


> Zuko wins
> 
> Naruto fireballs hurt people
> 
> Airbender fireballs kill people



Since when has a fireball hurt anyone in Naruto?

Zuko wins


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## Grandmaster Kane (Nov 14, 2007)

ryne11 said:


> Since when has a fireball hurt anyone in Naruto?
> 
> Zuko wins



akuma vs hidan


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## Banhammer (Nov 14, 2007)

That wan't a fireball, that was a huge clooud of flaming hot ashes, who burn the outside more and for longer, and also provide cover, but don't make any huge burns past 2nd degree


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## G-Man (Nov 14, 2007)

For Zuko deflecting lightning, that was one bolt.  Sasuke just spams dozens of lightning needles, and there ain't no way Zuko is fast enough to deflect them all.


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## User Name (Nov 14, 2007)

30% Itachi's fireball could move earth. 

Sasuke > 30% Itachi. 

Sasuke's light saber would slice Zuko's head off before he could do anything. Zuko's lightning re-direction is useless. He can't redirect a light saber. 


Sasuke easily.


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## Chocochip (Nov 14, 2007)

Sasuke. His new lightning charkra blade extension and spikes are much faster.


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## Pintsize (Nov 14, 2007)

Sauske would find that his lightning attacks are redirected at him.

Sauske loses. 

Zuko is ready to face anyone!


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## Chocochip (Nov 14, 2007)

I hope you realize Zuko is not fast enough to bend them away from him, seeing as they come from multiple directions and benders can only bend a certain , usually having a bending range of 90 degrees of everything in their sight being able to control, as well as he can't even bend lighting well, he loses bad.


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## zan (Nov 14, 2007)

well in all reality if they have blood bending..using the water in a human body to effect another person..There is no real reason why fire benders cant use the element in a human body to blow someone els up....Seeing that humans has methanes gas and all that...I know it hasn't been shown before..but since i was the one who said blood bending was possible in the first place.......


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## Pintsize (Nov 14, 2007)

Dude, he just bent lightning that was surrounding him after he was crying about what happened to his mother. Plus, as Avatar lightning is _very like_ real lightning (I'd say it was if Avatar wasn't a fictional universe) I'd say there's no way Zuko is getting caught off guard.

Lightning at its slowest is 60,000 mp/h (or was it km/h?). Wayyyy above Naruto speed.

And as for not good at bending lightning? Sure, he can't make it yet, but he just redirected lightning from the freaking _Fire Lord_, who has shown more raw power than any lightning jutsu in Naruto. Considering Zuko's main block was emotional unstability, I wouldn't be surprised at all if he could make it after the last episode.


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## Chocochip (Nov 14, 2007)

Yes, seeing as how that has never been done before, and methane gas itself is not fire, no.

EDIT: I am only on 3 7


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## Pintsize (Nov 14, 2007)

Get to 3 11 and surrender, young Fallen.


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## Chocochip (Nov 14, 2007)

So pretty much Avatar has the biggest plot hole these days? This is a mini-armbar. Should we even count that feat? I mean, the SS armbar isn't counted since it is BS. Zuko has problems reacting some of Aang's moves, as well as he has problems with others, he gets raped by Azula,  and then he was stupid enough to fall of the second floor chasing for her not having the reaction or balance to catch himself. I claim the feat to be illogical.


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## Pintsize (Nov 14, 2007)

Did you see the 40th episode? Zuko wiped the floor with Aang, and was getting an advantage against Katara (who was about to finish off Azula). He's clearly surpassed most of the Avatar main cast (though Aang recently got the beginnings of Toph's earth-sense, so he might be above Zuko again). 

In the Jade Eye archer episode, he was deflecting multiple arrows from multiple directions, all while fighting off multiple opponents. The show has just powerscaled up, and Zuko has come with it.


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## G-Man (Nov 14, 2007)

Pintsize said:


> Did you see the 40th episode? Zuko wiped the floor with Aang, and was getting an advantage against Katara (who was about to finish off Azula). He's clearly surpassed most of the Avatar main cast (though Aang recently got the beginnings of Toph's earth-sense, so he might be above Zuko again).
> 
> In the Jade Eye archer episode, he was deflecting multiple arrows from multiple directions, all while fighting off multiple opponents. The show has just powerscaled up, and Zuko has come with it.



Hmmm, I haven't seen the latest season yet.  This changes things.  I'll get back once I check the new episodes.


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## Chocochip (Nov 14, 2007)

Pintsize said:


> Did you see the 40th episode? Zuko wiped the floor with Aang, and was getting an advantage against Katara (who was about to finish off Azula). He's clearly surpassed most of the Avatar main cast (though Aang recently got the beginnings of Toph's earth-sense, so he might be above Zuko again).
> 
> In the Jade Eye archer episode, he was deflecting multiple arrows from multiple directions, all while fighting off multiple opponents. The show has just powerscaled up, and Zuko has come with it.



Yes, but that doesn't make reacting to lightning  consistent at all.


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## Pintsize (Nov 14, 2007)

Zuko's reacting to lightning is consistent with his reacting to lightning; he was ready to try with an actual thunderstorm (and Iroh has redirected actual lightning once before while he wasn't paying attention to a storm early on in the first season).

Remember also that lightning coming from benders not only has realistic properties, it's also made realistically: when teaching Zuko about lightning bending, he said that it was made by using chakra (or was it chi) to cause reactions in the air, which is the same way lightning is formed in real life, minus the chakra/chi.

By actual feats and implied feats (Iroh developing the counter to lightning bending, which since it's a secret, must have been developed by gonig out in thunderstorms and letting himself get hit by lightning, which he redirected) Avatar has remained consistent in characters holding lightning timing capacity.


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## Chocochip (Nov 14, 2007)

No not really. No one in Avatar should be  1/10000 close to reacting to lighting. That and the fact that Charkra lightning isn't even real lighting which means Zuko won't be familiar with the properties.


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## Giovanni Rild (Nov 14, 2007)

thegoodjae said:


> No not really. No one in Avatar should be  1/10000 close to reacting to lighting. That and the fact that Charkra lightning isn't even real lighting which means Zuko won't be familiar with the properties.



But Zuko reacted to Lightning and countered it. So you are kinda wrong


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## Chocochip (Nov 14, 2007)

No actually that is what you call inconsistent. Really inconsistent. Good for story, bad for using in OBD. Shame on the writers thinking it was even 0.1% logical.


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## Pintsize (Nov 14, 2007)

Obviously, by reacting to natural lightning, Iroh at least is a lightning timer.

Also, as I've stated before, lightning in the Avatar verse is made in the exact same way as natural lightning. If you've seen Avatar, you've obviously seen it's portrayed _very_ realistically, as opposed to most fiction.


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## Giovanni Rild (Nov 14, 2007)

thegoodjae said:


> No actually that is what you call inconsistent. Really inconsistent. Good for story, bad for using in OBD. Shame on the writers thinking it was even 0.1% logical.



Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can deny it. I'm not letting you pull that shit.


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## Chocochip (Nov 14, 2007)

So what? Obviously it means they didn't think of it being physically impossible for one who moves so slow as them to not immediately kill all of their opponents in less than a second yet still react to lighting shows that Avatar is just inconsistent. As far as it being portrayed as real, yes it is portrayed as real. That is why the feat is inconsistent. Zuko, who you can  somewhat put on a same tier of Aang in reaction, a little better I know, when fighting, shouldn't have trouble to react to lighting. Mai's throwing troubled Aang's gang. Mai's throwing, if that fast, wouldn't bounce of walls, and should cause sonic boom around it.


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## Pintsize (Nov 14, 2007)

A blind girl could take care of Mai's kunai from fifty feat away, whatchoo talking about? 

The only time I remember Mai actually giving trouble to the Avatar gang was when Mai was chasing Sokka and Katara (and I'm not sure if the time in question was when Sokka and Katara had been fucked up by Ty Lee already). 

They've never actually hit anyone, and as for having to dodge them, complacency's a bitch. Also, Mai and Ty Lee are obviously not your average humans.

In season three we've been seeing more superhuman reaction feats, like Aang blasting away from the combustion man's explosion (the one in slow mo). There's been superhuman reaction feats, and as you've pointed out there have been human reaction feats. They're not directly contradictory, though (as in, there's never been a point shown when someone simply couldn't react to something).


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## User Name (Nov 14, 2007)

Zuko reacted to his father pointing his arms at him. That is no where near lightning speed. 

To redirect lightning Zuko needs to let lightning go in one arm and out the other. Zuko can't redirect Sasuke's light saber. He'll be sliced in half.


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## Chocochip (Nov 14, 2007)

Pintsize said:


> A blind girl could take care of Mai's kunai from fifty feat away, whatchoo talking about?
> 
> The only time I remember Mai actually giving trouble to the Avatar gang was when Mai was chasing Sokka and Katara (and I'm not sure if the time in question was when Sokka and Katara had been fucked up by Ty Lee already).
> 
> ...


I never said they are average humans. This season is raising the bar and Avatar is finally going over peak human for some characters, except for the ones who need it like Sokka.

Heck Bleach showed faster than the eye movements MANY times which is greater than ANYTHING Avatar shown, since Byakuya stabbed Ichigo, but they wouldn't be able to react to lightning.


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## Pintsize (Nov 15, 2007)

There better not be any Bleach vs Avatar matches any time soon then.


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## vagnard (Nov 15, 2007)

Giovanni Rild said:


> But Zuko reacted to Lightning and countered it. So you are kinda wrong



First....Zuko never redirected a lightning bolt. It was Iroh. We aren't even sure if Zuko can use the technique because he never received a lightning bolt at all...

Second....Iroh can redirect a lightning bolt through his arms.  

Sasuke use condensed lightning through chakra control that works like a blade. It doesn't travel through the body. Iroh's technique only would useful against Chidori Nagashi. It would cut Zuko like fresh meat.


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## wheres the beef? (Nov 15, 2007)

thegoodjae said:


> No actually that is what you call inconsistent. Really inconsistent. Good for story, bad for using in OBD. Shame on the writers thinking it was even 0.1% logical.



:WOW :WOW :WOW


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## omg laser pew pew! (Nov 15, 2007)

Gecko4lif said:


> akuma vs hidan




*Spoiler*: _This guy fought Hidan_ 











User Name said:


> 30% *Itachi's fireball could move earth*.
> 
> Sasuke > 30% Itachi.
> 
> ...



Yeah and I could move earth by breathing. I must be god


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## Chocochip (Nov 15, 2007)

Giovanni Rild said:


> Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can deny it. I'm not letting you pull that shit.



? I don't like the feat because it is inconsistent and doesn't add up with the rest of the feats.


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## Commander Shepard (Nov 15, 2007)

vagnard said:


> First....Zuko never redirected a lightning bolt. It was Iroh. We aren't even sure if Zuko can use the technique because he never received a lightning bolt at all...
> 
> Second....Iroh can redirect a lightning bolt through his arms.
> 
> Sasuke use condensed lightning through chakra control that works like a blade. It doesn't travel through the body. Iroh's technique only would useful against Chidori Nagashi. It would cut Zuko like fresh meat.



I won't give any other spoilers, but the Day of Black Sun has been leaked online, and in it, Zuko redirects lightning.  Powerful lightning.

 I root Sasuke's legs in place, and still, the rabid OBD'ers cry speedblitz...

Ok, for those to whom it matters, speed is not an issue here.  Just power.


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## Kage no Yume (Nov 15, 2007)

As it's already been mentioned (by Vagnard ), the only lightning jutsu Sasuke possesses that could possibly be redirected is chidori nagashi.  His chidori blade is still a blade, and the senbon are still senbon.  They *cut* and *pierce*, *not flow* through the body like Zuko expects lighting to do.  Furthermore, all forms of chidori aren't plain lightning, it's *chakra* with the properties of lightning.  Has Zuko been shown bending an opponent's chi before?

Zuko is beheaded or turned into a pin-cushion.


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## Banhammer (Nov 15, 2007)

According to the OBD rules of transfer, lightning redirection will work


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## Kage no Yume (Nov 15, 2007)

TheFourthNin said:


> According to the OBD rules of transfer, lightning redirection will work



No, because Avatar verse benders bend lightning by letting it flow through one arm into their body, through their heart (the dangerous part), then out through the other arm.  

That's exactly what Zuko did against Ozai (and damn you bastards for making me watch that scene before reaching that point of Avatar ).  He took in the flow, transferred it over and sent it back at Ozai:

[YOUTUBE]cQ-z7pnflDU[/YOUTUBE]

He can't do the same with lightning formed into a blade or senbon, which doesn't flow through the body, thus making Iroh's technique useless.  And again, that's _not_ counting the very potent fact that chidori isn't actual lighting anyways, but is chakra acting like lightning.



And by the by, lightning-timer?  HA!  Just try to time the lighting in that video, and see that Avatar verse lightning moves quite slowly doesn't it?


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## Banhammer (Nov 15, 2007)

You just prooved he can redirect lightning
Rules of attack transfer of the OBD say he can redirect lightning
So the burden of proof as why sasuke's particular lightning can't be redirected is on you


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## Kage no Yume (Nov 15, 2007)

TheFourthNin said:


> You just prooved he can redirect lightning
> Rules of attack transfer of the OBD say he can redirect lightning
> So the burden of proof as why sasuke's particular lightning can't be redirected is on you



I already did.  Here is it again:



			
				Kage no Yume said:
			
		

> Avatar verse benders bend lightning by letting it flow through one arm into their body, through their heart (the dangerous part), then out through the other arm.
> 
> That's exactly what Zuko did against Ozai. He took in the flow, transferred it over and sent it back at Ozai.
> 
> He can't do the same with lightning formed into a blade or senbon, which doesn't flow through the body, thus making Iroh's technique useless.



No bender can bend lighting the way they bend the other elements.  All they can do is let it flow through them, and redirect it.  Chidori sword doesn't flow through the body, it simply cuts.  Chidori senbon don't flow through the body, they simply pierce.  If it doesn't flow, Zuko can't use Iroh's technique which is entirely dependent on the current of electricity flowing, and thus can't redirect the attacks.

Thus, Zuko is chopped up or turned into a pin cushion.

If you ignore the logic and refuse to explain yourself again, I'll simply ignore your rantings and wait for someone who will actually read the explanation to come along .


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## Ax_ (Nov 15, 2007)

Kage no Yume said:


> I already did.  Here is it again:
> 
> 
> 
> *No bender can bend lighting the way they bend the other elements*.  All they can do is let it flow through them, and redirect it.  Chidori sword doesn't flow through the body, it simply cuts.  Chidori senbon don't flow through the body, they simply pierce.  If it doesn't flow, Zuko can't use Iroh's technique which is entirely dependent on the current of electricity flowing, and thus can't redirect the attacks.




Iroh, Azula and 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Fire Lord Ozai


 have all been shown the ability to bend lightning, though...


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## Banhammer (Nov 15, 2007)

If chidori dosen't flow through your body than what the hell do you call Chidori Nagasaki
It's a chidori too
If it's like electricity, it will get bent


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## Commander Shepard (Nov 15, 2007)

Electricity is electricity.  If Zuko can grab it, he can redirect it.


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## User Name (Nov 15, 2007)

Kage no Yume said:


> No, because Avatar verse benders bend lightning by letting it flow through one arm into their body, through their *heart* (the dangerous part), then out through the other arm.


I am pretty certain that lightning re-direction requires that lightning NOT to flow through the heart. Flowing through the heart would kill them. IIRC, it flows in one arm, down the stomach and out the other arm.

Zuko could re-direct lightning *bolts*, not lightning that maintains it's shape and doesn't flow. Re-direction requires lightning to go in one arm and out the other. Zuko can't make sure that the blade touches one arm and stays there long enough. 

 As, soon as the blade touches Zuko, it will cut him.


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## Banhammer (Nov 15, 2007)

It can, same way katara would bend any suiton they throw at him


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## User Name (Nov 15, 2007)

TheFourthNin said:


> It can, same way katara would bend any suiton they throw at him



No, it can't. Lightning benders create lightning inside their bodies and discharge them as lightning bolts. As soon as it leaves their body they have no control over it. They have control of the initial path, that's it. 

Lightning re-direction is the same. They have *some* control over lightning if it is flowing through their body. They can control the path which it flows: from one arm to one arm. They have shown no more control than that. 

Sasuke's lightning blade won't flow because Sasuke's maintaining the lightning as a blade. Current won't flow through Zuko unless Sasuke wants it. Zuko can't control lightning that doesn't flow through his body. Zuko would be cut.


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## Pintsize (Nov 15, 2007)

They don't form lightning inside their bodies, fyi.

They form it just the same way real lightning is formed.


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## User Name (Nov 15, 2007)

Pintsize said:


> They don't form lightning inside their bodies, fyi.
> 
> They form it just the same way real lightning is formed.


Season number, Episode number. plz. 

The point remains, the limit of their control is the initial direction of the bolt. They can't control it outside their body.

Zuko can't redirect Sasuke's blade.


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## Frogs557 (Nov 15, 2007)

sasuke shreds zuko with chidori. end of story.  zuko is unable to redirect chidori. 'nuff said.


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## Banhammer (Nov 15, 2007)

Season Two
Bitter Work

I wish everyone would stop breaking the OBD Transfer Law.... This is turning out to be a shitstorm, and I don't wanna put my shitcoat on


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## User Name (Nov 15, 2007)

TheFourthNin said:


> Season Two
> Bitter Work
> 
> I wish everyone would stop breaking the OBD Transfer Law.... This is turning out to be a shitstorm, and I don't wanna put my shitcoat on


Iroh's explanation:
- separate the ying/yang energy *inside* one's body
- let the separated energies collide to create lightning
- control the direction of lightning out one's body. 
Lightning is created inside one's body

There is no breaking of the "OBD transfer law". Lightning benders can't control lightning outside their body. Lightning redirection can't redirect lightning that won't flow inside one's body. 

The current of Sasuke's blade won't flow inside Zuko because Sasuke controls the current to cut. Hence, Zuko can't redirect it because he can't control lightning outside his body.


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## Banhammer (Nov 15, 2007)

But the flow consist of taking the lightning from his controll with that technique therefore it will work


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## Commander Shepard (Nov 15, 2007)

I agree with thefourthnin, redirection is _taking control_.  It doesn't matter if the electricity is flowing normally in the first place.


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## User Name (Nov 15, 2007)

TheFourthNin said:


> But the flow consist of taking the lightning from his controll with that technique therefore it will work


Huh? flow? 

What part of they can't control lightning outside their body can't you understand? Sasuke maintaining the lightning as a blade means the current won't flow through Zuko, which means no redirection. Zuko can't control lightning outside his body, means he can't make outside lightning flow inside his body, which means no redirection.



Bender Ninja said:


> I agree with thefourthnin, redirection is _taking control_.  It doesn't matter if the electricity is flowing normally in the first place.


redirection means control INSIDE the body, not outside.


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## Frogs557 (Nov 15, 2007)

chidori isnt normal lightning.  and even if zuko could redirect it, sasuke speedblitzes and carves a hole in zukos back with chidori.


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## Commander Shepard (Nov 15, 2007)

Zuko can't control lightning outside his body?  Isn't the redirection technique made to remedy that?

Oh, and Frogs557... read my OP, please...


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## Pintsize (Nov 15, 2007)

The energies don't collide inside the body; if they created lightning inside their body, what would be the point of shooting lightning at another firebender ever? They'd already be lightning proof.

Lightning bending, like any other bending art, takes place outside the body.


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## User Name (Nov 15, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> Zuko can't control lightning outside his body?  Isn't the redirection technique made to remedy that?
> 
> Oh, and Frogs557... read my OP, please...



No, bender has shown the ability to control lightning once it leaves the body.


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## Frogs557 (Nov 15, 2007)

chidori isnt "lightning" per se, it is a large amount of chakra gathered and discharged at the hand.  since it isnt real lightning it cannot be bent and redirected.


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## User Name (Nov 15, 2007)

Frogs557 said:


> chidori isnt "lightning" per se, it is a large amount of chakra gathered and discharged at the hand.  since it isnt real lightning it cannot be bent and redirected.


it is lightning. It has been retconned


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## Mat?icha (Nov 15, 2007)

sasuke wins. he can use fire blades as well. besides all, zuko is no match for him.


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## Frogs557 (Nov 15, 2007)

User Name said:


> it is lightning. It has been retconned



where does it say its lightning?  gai sensei says its called lightning blade because kakashe cut through a bolt of lightning, not because its made of lightning.  and kakashe states that "To use chidori you need to gather a large amount of chakra in your hand, then discharge it."

so there


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## User Name (Nov 15, 2007)

Frogs557 said:


> where does it say its lightning?  gai sensei says its called lightning blade because kakashe cut through a bolt of lightning, not because its made of lightning.  and kakashe states that "To use chidori you need to gather a large amount of chakra in your hand, then discharge it."
> 
> so there



During the elemental training for Naruto. Kakashi called it lightning. It's a retcon. 



Pintsize said:


> The energies don't collide inside the body; if they created lightning inside their body, what would be the point of shooting lightning at another firebender ever? They'd already be lightning proof.
> 
> Lightning bending, like any other bending art, takes place outside the body.


- ying/yang is separated inside the body. - fact.
The question is when the energies collide. It could be either. We know from lightning redirection that there is a safe passage way for lightning to flow through one's body. Lightning benders could very well be utilizing that safe path way inside their body. 

But, it's irrelevant. They can't control lightning outside their body. Zuko can't redirect Sasuke's blade.


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## Pintsize (Nov 15, 2007)

Episode 11 would say differently. Zuko held the lightning outside of his body before sending it back at yon Ozai.


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## Wuzzman (Nov 15, 2007)

This thread is dumb. But Zuko wins anway. With his feet rooted he can direct the light to the ground and he can already block fire. Sorry but Zuko wins this due to the fact that he TANKED His father BIG ASS LIGHTNING BOLT with NO INJURIES and then PWNED HIS FATHER WITH IT.


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## Commander Shepard (Nov 15, 2007)

Lightning is created in Avatar by separating yin and yang from _outside_ the body, and then crashing them back into each other.

Lightning can't be created _inside_ the body, because if it was, then training in firing lightning would be enough to defend against it.

But no, lightning entering the body is how it deals damage, and standard lightning training can't defend.

However, the redirection technique remedies this.  It _draws_ the lightning into a certain point on the body (a hand), _directs_ it along a certain route, and _expels_ it at a certain point.

Sasuke's electric attacks are just that- electric.  Even if they don't "flow", Zuko can still take control of them.


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## User Name (Nov 15, 2007)

Pintsize said:


> Episode 11 would say differently. Zuko held the lightning outside of his body before sending it back at yon Ozai.



No, he didn't. Zuko let lightning flow in through one arm and out the other. Once outside, it just went the way that Zuko's fingers were pointing. 




Bender Ninja said:


> Lightning is created in Avatar by separating yin and yang from *outside* the body, and then crashing them back into each other.


Not, that it's relevant; but where does it say that? 



> Lightning can't be created _inside_ the body, because if it was, then training in firing lightning would be enough to defend against it.
> 
> But no, lightning entering the body is how it deals damage, and standard lightning training can't defend.


huh?



> However, the redirection technique remedies this.  *It draws the lightning* into a certain point on the body (a hand), _directs_ it along a certain route, and _expels_ it at a certain point.
> 
> Sasuke's electric attacks are just that- electric.  Even if they don't "flow", Zuko can still take control of them.



Why would they ever need to draw the lightning bolt for redirection? The lightning bolt is already coming at them. More, importantly, where does it say that redirection draws lightning? 

To humour you, even if Zuko could draw lightning, what makes you think he could take the control of the current away from Sasuke? Sasuke could mold and maintain the shape of the lightning; Zuko can't; obviously, Sasuke has way more control of lightning than Zuko. 

Zuko will get cut.


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## vagnard (Nov 15, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> I won't give any other spoilers, but the Day of Black Sun has been leaked online, and in it, Zuko redirects lightning.  Powerful lightning.



I just see the episode right now...and it doesn't change anything from Iroh's explanation. Zukko just redirect Ozai's lightning bolt using his arms as channel to make the lightning pass through them (Iroh explained they just conduct the energy through the arms to the heart and it's released again by the other arm).

It can't redirect Sasuke's CHAKRA lightning and condensed attack that has no way to be trapped by his arms because one touch and it cuts you. It's works like a blade...not like real lightning. In fact the light is so condensed thanks to shape manipulation that he can change his shape and direction after it was released. 

In fact...according to Kakashi elements are just chakra that is recomposed to resemble and gain characteristics from the elements. It isn't the element itself. 

Zuko won't redirect a blade of pure energy aimed to cut his head or his legs. It doesn't work like that. 

It was never explained the fire user DRAWS the energy....in fact if anything Iroh's explanation suggest the oppossite....the body just acts like a conductor to let the energy pass through him.


On the topic....

If you mean how much sheer power they can produce these pics should answer you. 

Pre-Timeskip Sasuke clashing his chidori against Naruto's rasengan creating a ball of pure energy that was destroying the rocks and the waterfall around. 



Post-timeskip Sasuke release a bit of his power against Sai before his introduction because he was awaken from his sleep.


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## Banhammer (Nov 15, 2007)

So what, it makes it a tie?


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## Commander Shepard (Nov 15, 2007)

In return to vagnard, examples of Zuko's power:

*Spoiler*: __


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## Finn Mac Cool (Nov 15, 2007)

Zuko can only redirect lightning through his hands, right?  In that case, Sasuke could still take Zuko down using a dozen chidori needles or splitting his electric sword into multiple points (similar to what he did against Itachi).  Zuko wouldn't be able to redirect all of them.


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## Commander Shepard (Nov 15, 2007)

This is a power match, neither is allowed to go around the other's defenses.


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## Banhammer (Nov 15, 2007)

and sasuke only gets fire and thunder


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## Commander Shepard (Nov 15, 2007)

Well, Finn Mac Cool did only name electric attacks.


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## vagnard (Nov 15, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> In return to vagnard, examples of Zuko's power:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



I don't know how that even compares with the radius I showed you....this is the crater that resulted from Sasuke's release. 





This is Sasuke just awakening...according to Kabuto this isn't nothing surprising for him when he is a bit cranky.


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## Banhammer (Nov 15, 2007)

^That thing was already a huge cave, it's not a crater, and it matters alot since if sasuke can't move, that much fire is enough to kill him


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## vagnard (Nov 15, 2007)

TheFourthNin said:


> ^That thing was already a huge cave, it's not a crater, and it matters alot since if sasuke can't move, that much fire is enough to kill him



Lol. Sasuke was just right there when he made explode the cave...so it clearly doesn't affect him. 

And it was crater. The corridors were as big as the doors. 



Look the door behind Sakura in the first panel. All above it was solid rock. Only the space of the corridor and the room were empty.


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## Finn Mac Cool (Nov 15, 2007)

If there's no going around each other's defenses, then Zuko can't redirect Sasuke's lightning attacks either.

As for sheer power, Sasuke's most powerful attack (that we know of) is Chidori, but it's a close range attack, so keeping them motionless is kinda unfair in that regards, since all of Zuko's attacks are at least medium-range.


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## The Horse (Nov 15, 2007)

Sasuke wins, speed advatage and higher damage soak.


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## Giovanni Rild (Nov 15, 2007)

The Horse said:


> Sasuke wins, speed advatage and higher damage soak.



Read the first post dammit


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## Caitlyn Jenner (Nov 15, 2007)

Zuko would defiantly win.

Zuko can use nonstop fire and lightning attacks.


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## Commander Shepard (Nov 15, 2007)

Finn Mac Cool said:


> If there's no going around each other's defenses, then Zuko can't redirect Sasuke's lightning attacks either.



And the logic in that is what?

And Kenpachi, actually, Zuko can't make his own lightning just _control_ lightning shot at him.


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## Chocochip (Nov 15, 2007)

The first page doesn't put a speed cap on the actual move with allows the chidori nagashi to peirce Zuko before he has a chance to do anything.


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## Giovanni Rild (Nov 15, 2007)

thegoodjae said:


> The first page doesn't put a speed cap on the actual move with allows the chidori nagashi to peirce Zuko before he has a chance to do anything.



He needs to charge the chidori before using it, Zuko will have fried him by then


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## Finn Mac Cool (Nov 15, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> And the logic in that is what?
> 
> And Kenpachi, actually, Zuko can't make his own lightning just _control_ lightning shot at him.



You said you were talking about power alone.  Your later posts encouraged the assumption that you meant brute force of their attacks alone.  Redirecting lightning doesn't fall under the brute force category, at least not if attacking with multiple lightning blades at once doesn't.


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## Azure Flame Fright (Nov 15, 2007)

This thread should die
It is obvious that the thread maker assumed that Zuko could re-direct Sasuke's lightning and on top of that the OP put all the attributes of this fight in Zuko's favor


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## Wuzzman (Nov 15, 2007)

LOL. Causing a structure that is filled with Tunnels is alot different from causing a "crater". Funny how sasuke boys either say Zuko can't redirect lightning or chidori isn't lightning lol. Well big ball of fire might as well not be fire because its made from "spiritual energy" lol. Those excuses alone, targeting what we already know Zuko can do(by saying he can't do it) as oppose to challenging  Sasuke to outsmart or outmanuever Zuko already tells me that Zuko wins hard.


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## Chocochip (Nov 15, 2007)

Actually, you are wrong. Provide evidence first of all, at least attempt to argue against my scans, and lastly, you never even realized the speed death Zuko receives here.


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## Enclave (Nov 15, 2007)

Well it's obvious Zuko wins this simply thanks to what he did during the invasion against Ozai.  This is a bit of a rape-stomp thread due to Sasuke being unable to move around.



thegoodjae said:


> Actually, you are wrong. Provide evidence first of all, at least attempt to argue against my scans, and lastly, you never even realized the speed death Zuko receives here.



Why do people have such trouble reading the initial post?  The TC has nullified Sasuke's speed advantage for this topic.


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## Chocochip (Nov 15, 2007)

Actually, no he didn't. he nullified movement speed. He didn't nullify body movement speed nor a speed of an attack. Comprehend my points a little better please.


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## Giovanni Rild (Nov 15, 2007)

thegoodjae said:


> Actually, you are wrong. Provide evidence first of all, at least attempt to argue against my scans, and lastly, you never even realized the speed death Zuko receives here.



Neither Sasuke or Zuko can move his legs, so he can't move in for a kill. You must be talking about the Chidori swords, which seemed slow enough for Zuko to counter or Zuko just attacks first while Sasuke's Chidori is charging.

Bender Ninja didn't put down a distance between them. The farther apart they are, the better it is for Zuko


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## Chocochip (Nov 15, 2007)

I never said he can. No actually they don't seem slow enough. I provided scans of them stabbing Itachi, and surprising Deidara by its speed. Zuko needs hand movement to bend as well as bring lightning out. The charging takes only and instant seeing as how he can charge and attack before deidara can react. True, the farther apart better for Zuko. I also posted the snake hands that require no charge nor seal which would kill Zuko through speed. Of course, since the more distance helps Zuko, they will probably be 50+meters or  some crazy crap just to let Zuko win.


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## Kage no Yume (Nov 16, 2007)

TheFourthNin said:


> If chidori dosen't flow through your body than what the hell do you call Chidori Nagasaki
> It's a chidori too
> If it's like electricity, it will get bent



I already said chidori nagashi would be the only candidate for Zuko's bending.  Try actually reading my posts . 



Bender Ninja said:


> Electricity is electricity.  If Zuko can grab it, he can redirect it.



Did you not see the episode where Iroh explained his lightning redirection technique (him being the only person capable of doing such before Zuko mastered it).  Did you not hear him say that one lets the lightning *flow* into one arm, *flow* down into the stomach (thanks User Name), and then *flow* out through the other arm?

Chidori blade and chidori senbon will not flow through Zuko.  They cause physical damage in the form of cutting or piercing.  They cannot be absorbed, because Zuko and Iroh's technique does not manipulate lightning beyond creating a path within their body for it to flow through.  If the attack doesn't flow as lightning does, the path Zuko and Iroh set up won't matter in the least.  

No bender can do anything more with lightning than create and fire it in one direction, or let it flow through their body and redirect it into another direction.  They can't bend it as they do fire, water, earth, or wind.  Thus Zuko can't bend chidori blade and chidori senbon, because there exists no bending technique to deal with it.

Not only that, but the path can only be in one arm, through the stomach, and out the other.  Even going by your illogical methods (which I still deny), Zuko can't bend lightning if it hits him anywhere other than the arm he prepares to receive it with.  So he'd still lose whether he can bend Sasuke's chidori blade/senbon or not.






But if you really want to push the rule of transfer to the point where logic doesn't apply:

Sasuke simply copies Zuko's bending with his sharingan, nullifies all of his attacks, and eventually wins due to a speed advantage.

Sharingan's power to copy any technique is transferable right?  Just as Zuko can bend all attacks that have anything to do with lightning, despite the fact that the original lightning redirection technique was limited enough for him to be screwed by ball lightning or ground to cloud lightning.  Let alone lightning that doesn't act like lighting and takes the form of a sword or senbon.


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## Commander Shepard (Nov 16, 2007)

Well, Kage no Yume, I must have missed the part in this video where stray mini-bolts of lightning weren't sucked into Iroh's hand:


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## Gunners (Nov 16, 2007)

Zuko is now able to redirect Chidori?

How is he going to redirect the blade when it hits him in an area like his stomach, his arm, leg or face?

If he could actually redirect the Chidori he would have to grab hold of it which he wouldn't be able to do.


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## C-Moon (Nov 16, 2007)

The Horse said:


> Sasuke wins, speed advatage and higher damage soak.


They're basically paralyzed from the waist down. Speed isn't a factor.


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## Ax_ (Nov 16, 2007)

Giovanni Rild said:


> Neither Sasuke or Zuko can move his legs, so he can't move in for a kill. You must be talking about the Chidori swords, which seemed slow enough for Zuko to counter or Zuko just attacks first while Sasuke's Chidori is charging.
> 
> *Bender Ninja didn't put down a distance between them. The farther apart they are, the better it is for Zuko*



Isn't the standard distance when none is given 20 ft apart or something like that?


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## Gunners (Nov 16, 2007)

> They're basically paralyzed from the waist down. Speed isn't a factor.


Yeah speed is still a factor. Hand speed still comes into play.


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## Banhammer (Nov 16, 2007)

So, lightning reaction speed versus what?


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## C-Moon (Nov 16, 2007)

Jio said:


> Yeah speed is still a factor. Hand speed still comes into play.


When I was replying to the post, I was thinking about running, or anything having to do with the legs.


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## Commander Shepard (Nov 16, 2007)

Ax_ said:


> Isn't the standard distance when none is given 20 ft apart or something like that?



Yes, I'm using the standard OBD distance.


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## Frogs557 (Nov 16, 2007)

gah!  it burns my brain!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!


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## Commander Shepard (Nov 16, 2007)

Err... it would help if you told us what "it" its.


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## Banhammer (Nov 16, 2007)

his thunder sword might not reach that far


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## Giovanni Rild (Nov 16, 2007)

If it's 20 ft, then Zuko most likely wins.


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## Kage no Yume (Nov 17, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> Well, Kage no Yume, I must have missed the part in this video where stray mini-bolts of lightning weren't sucked into Iroh's hand:


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## Commander Shepard (Nov 17, 2007)

No, lightning redirection is more like a pipe with suction drawing in a wide spray of water.  I still don't see any stray bolts around Iroh's hand.

The distance stays the same, and CS is not allowed.

Fine, I'll concede that Sasuke's fire jutsu can overpower Zuko.  He can resist them with firebending to an extent, but firebending defense has its limits.


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## Enclave (Nov 17, 2007)

Kage no Yume, yes bending isn't something that can be done by anybody.  There are a number of people who cannot bend at all and they can simply never learn to bed.

Look at the Southern Water Tribe.  The only bender left from that tribe is Katara, everybody else there cannot Water Bend as all the Water Benders were taken away by the Fire Nation.  It's not that they just don't bother learning how to bend, they just cannot.  Basically, bending would be more akin to a Kekke Genkai in Naruto than simple elemental recomposition jutsu.  It's also the same reason why benders can only bend a single element, they are just physically incapable of bending any other element unless they are the Avatar.


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## Kage no Yume (Nov 18, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> No, lightning redirection is more like a pipe with suction drawing in a wide spray of water.  I still don't see any stray bolts around Iroh's hand.





I was actually thinking of including such in the analogy, but couldn't find the right term for it.  I was thinking of a funnel, but suction works perfectly.


Alas, that still doesn't change the ice that is chidori blade/senbon into water.  As I've already stated numerous times, if the lightning doesn't flow (as water flows through the pipe), then the redirection technique won't work.  Suction won't work on ice that can cut through the pipe.



Enclave said:


> Kage no Yume, yes bending isn't something that can be done by anybody.  There are a number of people who cannot bend at all and they can simply never learn to bed.
> 
> Look at the Southern Water Tribe.  The only bender left from that tribe is Katara, everybody else there cannot Water Bend as all the Water Benders were taken away by the Fire Nation.  It's not that they just don't bother learning how to bend, they just cannot.  Basically, bending would be more akin to a Kekke Genkai in Naruto than simple elemental recomposition jutsu.  It's also the same reason why benders can only bend a single element, they are just physically incapable of bending any other element unless they are the Avatar.



Logic does point to that conclusion I suppose.


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## Banhammer (Nov 18, 2007)

Hmm, are we sure this "sword" is made of lightning? I could swear it was chakra, but oh well
It won't reach him at this distance so all he has is katon's, wich I fail to see how throwing alot of fire is oing to beat a firebender


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## Kage no Yume (Nov 18, 2007)

TheFourthNin said:


> Hmm, are we sure this "sword" is made of lightning? I could swear it was chakra, but oh well



...

Again I am amazed by your ability to completely ignore what I'm posting .  

And just where are you coming from?  When did anyone ever claim that chidori blade was lightning?  

I already tried the approach of chidori being chakra with properties of lightning.  You ignored it.



> It won't reach him at this distance so all he has is katon's, wich I fail to see how throwing alot of fire is oing to beat a firebender



Yet those firebenders continue to throw fire at each other while they fight, and do indeed injure and near kill each other with it on occasion.


And Zuko's still got chidori senbon (19+, incredibly accurate, with a quick wave of his arm) to worry about in tandem with Sasuke's goukakyuu no jutsu (I posted a scan of how powerful his goukakyuu was as a kid, as well as 30% Itachi's), and other fire jutsu.

If you still want to argue, I think we should wait until Kishimoto gets around to the Itachi vs Sasuke fight.  Hopefully more of Sasuke's lightning and fire jutsu will be showcased then.


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## Banhammer (Nov 18, 2007)

Kage no Yume said:


> ...
> 
> Again I am amazed by your ability to completely ignore what I'm posting .
> 
> ...


Yes, you did, and you have been prooven wrong
Not only is agreed that it should act like any other lightning, regardless of what's made of (wich is in both cases, *energy* either way), the fact that it can is also an OBD rule .
There is a thread in the meta bd where you can properly get your ass handed to you on this question


> Yet those firebenders continue to throw fire at each other while they fight, and do indeed injure and near kill each other with it on occasion.


The only time fire has ever hurt a firebender, was when zuko did not fight back
There has been tons of clips where they use firebening to counter each others fires



> And Zuko's still got chidori senbon (19+, incredibly accurate, with a quick wave of his arm) to worry about in tandem with Sasuke's goukakyuu no jutsu (I posted a scan of how powerful his goukakyuu was as a kid, as well as 30% Itachi's), and other fire jutsu.


Yeah, yeah, alot of light and smoke, but all it did was something not even worth mentioning by earthbender
You know what fire bender have done?
They have destroyed metal with far less of a boomshow
Plus, itachis feat don't count as sasuke's



> If you still want to argue, I think we should wait until Kishimoto gets around to the Itachi vs Sasuke fight.  Hopefully more of Sasuke's lightning and fire jutsu will be showcased then.



But that'll have other feats then the ones present..
And current sasuke has only speed and x0r1ng0n to really rely on
None of wich he's allowed here


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## Kage no Yume (Nov 18, 2007)

TheFourthNin said:


> Yes, you did, and you have been prooven wrong
> Not only is agreed that it should act like any other lightning, regardless of what's made of (wich is in both cases, *energy* either way), the fact that it can is also an OBD rule .
> There is a thread in the meta bd where you can properly get your ass handed to you on this question



......

Sorry to inform you, but ignoring an argument and claiming your own fanciful conclusions to be correct does nothing to prove it wrong.



> The only time fire has ever hurt a firebender, was when zuko did not fight back
> There has been tons of clips where they use firebening to counter each others fires



Yet has any of those benders countered something like kid Sasuke's goukakyuu no jutsu?  More importantly, has Zuko?




> Yeah, yeah, alot of light and smoke, but all it did was something not even worth mentioning by earthbender
> You know what fire bender have done?
> They have destroyed metal with far less of a boomshow
> Plus, itachis feat don't count as sasuke's



Care to show Zuko performing such a feat?



> But that'll have other feats then the ones present..
> And current sasuke has only speed and x0r1ng0n to really rely on
> None of wich he's allowed here



Current Sasuke is the same Sasuke that's going to fight Itachi.  If Sasuke shows lightning and fire jutsu in the near future (barring another timeskip/training phase), it'll be valid in this fight.


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## AlexForest9 (Nov 18, 2007)

sasuke wins


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