# Merlin vs. Dio Brando



## B Rabbit (Dec 20, 2018)

Dio with the The World.

Who wins.


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## Dr. White (Dec 21, 2018)

Merlin survived a hit from zeldoris. 

How does Dio damage her? 

He’s much faster but she has barriers and decent AOE.

If he can damage her then timestop does her in, but i recall the country level build up shit not being accepted


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## Kaaant (Dec 21, 2018)

There’s nothing wrong with damage stacking, we literally see it when jotato hits sheer heart attack with and without timestop.

And timestop or no the attacks don’t just vanish into thin air. Dio could hit her so many times before she could react out of timestop let alone in it.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 21, 2018)

Make it speed equal and Merlin traps him in a PC or something.


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## Kaaant (Dec 21, 2018)

Pc isn’t holding him.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 21, 2018)

Sure is. And every attempt of him breaking out isn’t met with him getting automatically hit with his own attack. From what i got these guys are still city block or something in durability


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## Kaaant (Dec 21, 2018)

How is he getting hit with his own attack? His regen can cover that anyway. 

Pc isn’t strong enough to deal with what he can dish out.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 21, 2018)

It’s the mechanic of PC. Whatever you throw you receive in damage yourself


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## Kaaant (Dec 21, 2018)

Wouldn’t be a problem as he has regen. I doubt it’d even hurt him as the world is intangible and I don’t recall nnt characters interacting with intangibles.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 21, 2018)

He can just destroy her internal organs with The World


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 21, 2018)

The darkness can deal with intangibility and therefore anything that can deal with darkness can do so too.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 21, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> He can just destroy her internal organs with The World



Merlin has a feat of transferring her soul to her sacred treasure and her self in the real world being just a projection. If he can extract and destroy souls then its good for him. If not then that will not work


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## Kaaant (Dec 21, 2018)

I have no idea what you’re talking about on darkness

There’s also stuff to be looked at. I still remember there was an old calc that put RHCP at kilotons.


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## Kaaant (Dec 21, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Merlin has a feat of transferring her soul to her sacred treasure and her self in the real world being just a projection. If he can extract and destroy souls then its good for him. If not then that will not work



She was not dead when this happened.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 21, 2018)

Archangel turns intangible. Darkness negates it

What you mean with not dead? Obviously she wasn’t since otherwise she were...dead. How does this organ thingy works? Link?


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## Kaaant (Dec 21, 2018)

I don’t know what archangel is either. 

It matters because there’s no reason to believe she can continue to exist after dying. She removed her soul before being petrified and even then she wasn’t dead.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 21, 2018)

Archangels are characters in NNT. One turned intangible. A demon used darkness to Prevent it from happening the next time. 

I don’t think I can follow you. Like I said, of course she wasn’t dead when she has done any feat. If she were dead she could not do anything. What Logic are you implementing here? 

How does this organ stuff work?


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## Dr. White (Dec 21, 2018)

Like I said, i am pretty sure stacking was not accepted anymore as to do any meaningful amount of damage he would need to be hitting billions of times in the short gap of the world.

Pretty sure country level dio isn’t a thing anymore.


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## Kaaant (Dec 21, 2018)

I’ve already told you we see when jotaro fought SHA there was a clear difference between him hitting at once via ts and over time. 

Dio is so ludicrously fast he can hit merlin that many times before she can blink, where it would pretty much register for her as one hit even out of timestop. 

The energy isn’t magically negated even if an individual punch isn’t that strong.


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## Dr. White (Dec 21, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> I’ve already told you we see when jotaro fought SHA there was a clear difference between him hitting at once via ts and over time.
> 
> Dio is so ludicrously fast he can hit merlin that many times before she can blink, where it would pretty much register for her as one hit even out of timestop.
> 
> The energy isn’t magically negated even if an individual punch isn’t that strong.


Yes but once again, it was decided that he isn’t able to get up to crazy amounts. The last I heard it was like town level which is nothing to merlin. 

Jojo’s characters are barely ftl+ so the idea he can throw billions of mudas in 5 seconds just isn’t evidenced.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 21, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Yes but once again, it was decided that he isn’t able to get up to crazy amounts. The last I heard it was like town level which is nothing to merlin.
> 
> Jojo’s characters are barely ftl+ so the idea he can throw billions of mudas in 5 seconds just isn’t evidenced.


>barely ftl
Dude they are over 300c, literally millions of times faster than Merlin


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## Dr. White (Dec 21, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> >barely ftl
> Dude they are over 300c, literally millions of times faster than Merlin


Where does that come from? I thought their ftl came from the uv feat which is ftl+, not mftl.

I never said he wasn’t many times faster than merlin, I was talking about his speed in relation to how many punches he could throw which is ehy the country level shit got dropped


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## Jackalinthebox (Dec 21, 2018)

Silver Chariot's feat vs Hanged Man was 365 c


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## Kaaant (Dec 21, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Yes but once again, it was decided that he isn’t able to get up to crazy amounts. The last I heard it was like town level which is nothing to merlin.
> 
> Jojo’s characters are barely ftl+ so the idea he can throw billions of mudas in 5 seconds just isn’t evidenced.



Na, I’ve been having this discussion every time it’s been brought up and I think most people agree it’s legit.

He’s like 300x ftl for a guy who isn’t shit to him intercepting a light speed stand. I think generally high speed and low dc should let characters hit above their weight even without timestop

And stamina isn’t an issue when dio can live a hundred years on no food. There’s also stands with energy to mess with the weather, or a stand that can constantly raise the temperature to 80 degrees.


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 21, 2018)

Pretty sure country level dio got dropped a long time ago due to some or something


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 21, 2018)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Pretty sure country level dio got dropped a long time ago due to some or something


Yea due to bullshit, things can change. It was something about stamina which DIO doesnt have a problem with


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 21, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Yea due to bullshit, things can change. It was something about stamina which DIO doesnt have a problem with


Make a meta about it to decide whether or not it get accepted


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## Kaaant (Dec 21, 2018)

Jotaro vs SHA without timestop: does no damage and admits it:



Jotaro vs SHA with timestop: damages it


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 21, 2018)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Make a meta about it to decide whether or not it get accepted


Or maybe prove why it isnt accepted? Because it was always 50-50 and has only tipped more in favor of it being accepted


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## Kaaant (Dec 21, 2018)

I wouldn’t even say it’s 50-50. Whenever we have this discussion the against people rarely show up


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 21, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Or maybe prove why it isnt accepted? Because it *was always 50-50* and has only tipped more in favor of it being accepted


Since when?


Kaaant said:


> I wouldn’t even say it’s 50-50. Whenever we have this discussion the against people rarely show up


Been a long time TBH I guess and other shit 
But IIRC it was thrown out for some shit


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 21, 2018)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Since when?
> 
> Been a long time TBH I guess and other shit
> But IIRC it was thrown out for some shit


Since the threads like 1-2 years ago where it was discussed, i know me and several others always thought there was no issue. Since then ive only seen more supporters for it

It was thrown out for some stamina bs and people saying “Araki didnt draw them throwing 5 billion punches”


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 21, 2018)

Have we ever seen a stand tire out?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 21, 2018)

Ayy lmao said:


> Have we ever seen a stand tire out?


Maybe once if it was an automatic stand, but we’ve never seen SP or TW look remotely tired even after their users have been stabbed and their skull bashed in


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## Imagine (Dec 21, 2018)

The country level stuff was NEVER dropped due to stamina issues. Literally, one person brought that up as an argument.

It was dropped because the calc used an arbitrary number to get country level stacking. The creator of the calc, Brohan assumed Dio/Jotaro were throwing out millions/billions of punches every time without any basis for it.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 21, 2018)

Imagine said:


> The country level stuff was NEVER dropped due to stamina issues. Literally, one person brought that up as an argument.
> 
> It was dropped because the calc used an arbitrary number to get country level stacking. The creator of the calc, Brohan assumed Dio/Jotaro were throwing out millions/billions of punches every time without any basis for it.


It was a fair assumption, he just calculated how many punches they could throw in 5 seconds when they are 365c


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## Imagine (Dec 21, 2018)

Except its not. He originally just assumed a figure without taking the speed into account and one of his arguments was Dio/Jotaro already have universal time-stop so this'll just be a crazy low-end.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 21, 2018)

Imagine said:


> The country level stuff was NEVER dropped due to stamina issues. Literally, one person brought that up as an argument.
> 
> It was dropped because the calc used an arbitrary number to get country level stacking. The creator of the calc, Brohan assumed Dio/Jotaro were throwing out millions/billions of punches every time without any basis for it.



If thats true then thats simple calc stacking and cant be acceppted.

Finding a result via calc X and then using Calc X result to find new value Y with X as foundation.

Plain and simple.


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## Imagine (Dec 21, 2018)

The ''meat'' of the arguments came from finding out where the number of punches derived from. Those that didn't see the calc originally thought it was an actual on-panel feat or statement. It even went as deep of pointing out that the ''mudas'' and ''oras'' don't even line up with a specific number of punches. Its just some shit they yell out when attacking.

It's all arbitrary.


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## Kaaant (Dec 21, 2018)

All that tells me is that the number needs to be looked at again

Timestop accumulation is a demonstrated component of SP/TW’s power.

Some other stands should also be looked at like RHCP


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## Imagine (Dec 21, 2018)

No one should have a problem with time stack damage accumulation, but the number is bullshit.


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## Fang (Dec 21, 2018)

Imagine said:


> The country level stuff was NEVER dropped due to stamina issues. Literally, one person brought that up as an argument.
> 
> It was dropped because the calc used an arbitrary number to get country level stacking. The creator of the calc, Brohan assumed Dio/Jotaro were throwing out millions/billions of punches every time without any basis for it.



Do you know how fast a human arm can move back and forth at the speed of light? Because protip: its going to way more than merely thousands of times in a second.

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## Montanz (Dec 21, 2018)

Country level is blatant calc stacking because it uses two calculated values one for speed and one for dc.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 21, 2018)

Montanz said:


> Country level is blatant calc stacking because it uses two calculated values one for speed and one for dc.


its not really calc stacking because its just using an in universe mechanic to find out how hard they can hit in a timestop. 

calc stacking is doing shit like, character X is mach 30, and character Y blitzed him from 10 meters away so he must be 10 times faster, ergo character Y is now mach 300.


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## Dr. White (Dec 21, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> its not really calc stacking because its just using an in universe mechanic to find out how hard they can hit in a timestop.
> 
> calc stacking is doing shit like, character X is mach 30, and character Y blitzed him from 10 meters away so he must be 10 times faster, ergo character Y is now mach 300.


No lmao. The time stop stacking is not the issue. It is literally calc stacking. “Dio is ftl and mcb+, so let’s use his strength and assume he can throw x amount of punches based on a calced value.”


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 21, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> No lmao. The time stop stacking is not the issue. It is literally calc stacking. “Dio is ftl and mcb+, so let’s use his strength and assume he can throw x amount of punches based on a calced value.”


we do this for other characters too, timestop damage stacking is an accepted thing. 

and his stands most basic shit is literally a barrage of punches, him throwing out millions isnt some fucking insane thing when hes a FTL Vampire that can fly


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## Fang (Dec 21, 2018)

Just as an FYI, Zenith years ago using the speed of light for Aiolia's punches got something like 100 million punches per second just at the speed of light with a simple calc based off how human anatomy and arm movement and retraction works.

So lmao at "Dio NOT being able at throwing millions" of punches when he's confirmed FTL just from scaling from Hanged Man, Silver Chariot, and Star Platinum. I'm not saying shit but I do remember there was never a universal consensus or disapproval of damage accumulation with a time-stop.


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## Kaaant (Dec 21, 2018)

Ironic it’s in a fucking nnt thread where the other side is accused of calc stacking


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## Kaaant (Dec 21, 2018)

Fang said:


> there was never a universal consensus or disapproval of damage accumulation with a time-stop.



We already saw it with SHA as clear as day. 

We see other examples of shit like Dio punching in kakyoin and polnareff and the attacks properly registering after time is resumed.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 21, 2018)

Fang said:


> Just as an FYI, Zenith years ago using the speed of light for Aiolia's punches got something like 100 million punches per second just at the speed of light with a simple calc based off how human anatomy and arm movement and retraction works.
> 
> So lmao at "Dio NOT being able at throwing millions" of punches when he's confirmed FTL just from scaling from Hanged Man, Silver Chariot, and Star Platinum. I'm not saying shit but I do remember there was never a universal consensus or disapproval of damage accumulation with a time-stop.


even without calcs, Star Platinum is confirmed as being FTL. dont even need to use calc stacking for that shit


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## Dr. White (Dec 21, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> we do this for other characters too, timestop damage stacking is an accepted thing.
> 
> and his stands most basic shit is literally a barrage of punches, him throwing out millions isnt some fucking insane thing when hes a FTL Vampire that can fly


A.) once again, timestop accumulation isn’t the problem.
B.) barrage of punches doesn’t prove he can throw millions of times per second.

I can react at about 250 milliseconds, i can move my arm a meter in under a second, doesn’t mean you can auto extrapolate those feats and stack them to umpteen times.

C.) it’s still calc stacking. You are using a calc derived value and stacking it with another. That’s never been accepted.


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## xenos5 (Dec 22, 2018)

Yeah, Jojo Stands MCB+ DC mostly comes from one calced value, Tarkus's cliff feat way back in Part 1/Phantom Blood.

By definition it would be calc stacking to take that calced value and multiply it to get a Timestop Damage Stacking result.

It's like how you can't calc a speed feat of one character blitzing another character whose speed comes from a calc as that shit is bound to come out with a wonky result (one character blitzing another character who is MHS resulting in FTL shit or something like that).


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## Fang (Dec 22, 2018)

There's still the fact Dio can throw millions of punches just at the speed of light i a single second.


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## Dr. White (Dec 22, 2018)

Fang said:


> There's still the fact Dio can throw millions of punches just at the speed of light i a single second.


Prove this. You are assuming he can continuosuly punch at his reaction speed unhindered. 

By your logic why stop at a million? 

Did you do a calc? Cause I haven’t seen anything to support your claim.


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## Kaaant (Dec 22, 2018)

Why would his reaction speed be hindered? Silver chariot can literally parry light. 

Dio himself can flick away ftl attacks like it’s nothing.


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## Dr. White (Dec 22, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> Why would his reaction speed be hindered? Silver chariot can literally parry light.
> 
> Dio himself can flick away ftl attacks like it’s nothing.


Because it’s hard to maintain a constant flow of attacks?

A boxer can throw extremely fast punches and can throw thousands a day.

Doesn’t mean he can do all of that in an alloted time scaled to his fastest punch speed.

Which is why when you see boxers doing the famous speed bag thing they are very light punches simply involving moving their arm back and forth, not full on skillful punches.


It’s like saying “a baseball player can react to a 100mph pitch. Therefore he can swing a bat consecutively based on the speed of his swing.”

We’ve never seen anything in jojo’s remotely close.


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## Fang (Dec 22, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Prove this. You are assuming he can continuosuly punch at his reaction speed unhindered.



They are depicted as continuously punching when launching those barrages. This isn't VSB, we don't immediately dismiss something simply because we don't like what we hear. The burden of proof is on you, I know how a human arm works, I know how fast a human arm can retract then move forward with motion. Bare minimum the fact The World scales from Hanged Man and slower Stands that are already confirmed to be faster than light and how human anatomy works.

Otherwise your dismissal of it is groundless.

Occham's Razor shows up throwing a punch repeatedly is something standard for melee specialized Stands like The World, Star Platinum, Crazy Diamond, Stone Free, Gold Experience, King Crimson, Killer Queen, The Hand, Sticky Fingers, Kraftwerk, etc...Why would we all of a sudden out of the blue start questioning and conflating reaction speed with punching speed? Why would how fast someone is able to think to process a thought to send an electrical impulse in their brain to move an arm be different then how they perceive things or move with their legs?

It isn't unless you have some kind of evidence that contradicts. Which I highly doubt.



> Why stop at a million?



I'm going from the lowest conservative value here.

Let's go over some simple facts to debunk your downplaying:

A human's arms is relative to their height: 1 to 1 ratio anatomically speaking with their height. The general distance from your middle finger tip to your right hand's finger tip is the same. 

Now let's look at the fastest recorded punching speed in the real world:

- 142 punches in 14 seconds or roughly 10 punches a second is the human record
- Keith Liddell holds the record for the single fastest individual punch in the Guiness Book of World Records with a record of 45 miles per hour with his strike

I'm not going to bother doing a calculation from this information given how elementary it is but the idea you are projecting that Dio/The World minimum which is FTL can not throw millions of punches in a split second is beyond nonsensical.

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## Dr. White (Dec 22, 2018)

Fang said:


> They are depicted as continuously punching when launching those barrages. This isn't VSB, we don't immediately dismiss something simply because we don't like what we hear. The burden of proof is on you, I know how a human arm works, I know how fast a human arm can retract then move forward with motion. Bare minimum the fact The World scales from Hanged Man and slower Stands that are already confirmed to be faster than light and how human anatomy works.
> 
> Otherwise your dismissal of it is groundless.
> 
> ...


I am mobile so forgive me for not breaking your points up and responding to them individually.

Don’t bring up vs battle. Complete non sequitur. I don’t care about the outcome lol, I love jojo’s. YOU are the one arguing an agreed upon consensus. Bring it up in the meta if you feel some sort of way and we can talk about it.

The burden of proof is not on me lol. You are the one making a claim, i am disagreeing based in lack of evidence.

If you knew how human anatomy worked (whoch btw it’s more about physiology than anatomy) then you would understand why trying to scale an isolated quick movement, to a continuous series of movements much slower than the minds thought, is inherently nonsense. I too have a science background, specifically in the nervous system and brain so let’s not try to pull rank and make ourselves look a fool. 

The ratio of arm to body is not 1 to 1 lol. Wingspan =\ arm ratio.  And once again i already addressed this. Boxers can do the fast bag trick but guess what? It’s completely powerless and akin to letting your hand flop back and forth. 

This argument doesn’t make sense. I never said a punch wouldn’t be simple? I said throwing millions to billions of punches in a 5 second time frame based solely on reactions in nonsensical. Can you show me anything remotely close to a Muda Muda barrage being close to a millio punches?

I already gave you straight factual arguments on boxing mechanics. Said arguments which you have yet to refute.

Yes and all of those records are, as I said, examples of extremes. What you are trying tk say here is “based on those dudes speeds, they should be capable of millions of punches in minutes”. It’s completely impractable, it doesn’t take into account fatigue, coordination, and no one on their right mind would say all of those “142” punches are anywhere near full strength and he was clearly straining himself. All factors you cut out of the equation.

No, what’s nonsensical is you positing that dio’s punch amount ahould be scaled to his reaction/close quarter speed when nothing even remotely close has ever been displayed, and your argument relies on a bunch of assumptions, and your end goal relies on calc stacking.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 22, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> Ironic it’s in a fucking nnt thread where the other side is accused of calc stacking



Where the hell has nnt ever used calc stacking?


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## Fang (Dec 22, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> I am mobile so forgive me for not breaking your points up and responding to them individually.
> 
> Don’t bring up vs battle. Complete non sequitur. I don’t care about the outcome lol, I love jojo’s. YOU are the one arguing an agreed upon consensus.



Consensus on what? Also that isn't a non sequitur argument.



> Bring it up in the meta if you feel some sort of way and we can talk about it.



You are the one taking issue with it when OSA, Kaant and I have pointed out there is no consensus on this. Sounds like something you should be doing.



> The burden of proof is not on me lol. You are the one making a claim, i am disagreeing based in lack of evidence.



Not a valid argument. The burden of proof is on you considering YOU made the claim Dio is somehow "burdened" out of the blue when making continuous punches.



> If you knew how human anatomy worked (whoch btw it’s more about physiology than anatomy) then you would understand why trying to scale an isolated quick movement, to a continuous series of movements much slower than the minds thought, is inherently nonsense. I too have a science background, specifically in the nervous system and brain so let’s not try to pull rank and make ourselves look a fool.



One, you are making an argument from authority here and that's not gonna fly. Secondly, physical anatomy is entirely the subject here because we are talking about basic human motion and physical abilities. Thirdly, once more that burden of proof is on you, because there is not a single shred of evidence in the manga of Dio ever having some kind of split difference in how he reacts vs how he fights or attacks when it comes to his speed.

So, not buying this.



> The ratio of arm to body is not 1 to 1 lol. Wingspan =\ arm ratio.  And once again i already addressed this. Boxers can do the fast bag trick but guess what? It’s completely powerless and akin to letting your hand flop back and forth.



Nope:
*



			Arm span
		
Click to expand...

*


> is approximately equal to height. In males it averages about 5cm (about 2 inches).






> This argument doesn’t make sense. I never said a punch wouldn’t be simple? I said throwing millions to billions of punches in a 5 second time frame based solely on reactions in nonsensical. Can you show me anything remotely close to a Muda Muda barrage being close to a millio punches?



Claiming its "nonsense" just because you can't suspend your disbelief sounds like a personal problem on your end. How many punches do you think minimum with both arms punching back and forth from someone with lightspeed reactions and relfexes is going to be in 11 seconds?

Protip: Its not stopping in five digits.



> I already gave you straight factual arguments on boxing mechanics. Said arguments which you have yet to refute.



You really didn't. You gave some kind of weird reply to Kaant saying Dio can't maintain a consecutive number of punches which is based off you just saying so and nothing else.



> Yes and all of those records are, as I said, examples of extremes.



Its good thing Dio is a superhuman who scales above other Stand/Stand Users who are FTL then and is perfectly applicable here.



> What you are trying tk say here is “based on those dudes speeds, they should be capable of millions of punches in minutes”. It’s completely impractable,



There's nothing impracticable about my argument. I know how fast a professional boxer can punch, I know how many times the average professional boxer can punch in a second and a minute, I know how fast Dio Brando is, I know how fast The World is, I know how human anatomy works and arm length and ratio to human male height is relative to that.

I can make a discerned observation with all this information on roughly how many times a second a man with FTL reflexes can strike.



> it doesn’t take into account fatigue, coordination, and no one on their right mind would say all of those “142” punches are anywhere near full strength and he was clearly straining himself. All factors you cut out of the equation.



When has Dio shown fatigue in punching in his barrages? When has Dio shown lack of coordination when punching in his barrages? When has Dio failed to even multi-task such as doing so while actively maintaining a time-stop and even chaining them against Jotaro in Part 3?

Never. So why should anyone here buy your claim Dio is somehow going to be straining in launching millions of punches in each second when he attacks when basic mathematics on his reaction speed and how human anatomy works enables us to know he can do this no problem?



> No, what’s nonsensical is you positing that dio’s punch amount ahould be scaled to his reaction/close quarter speed when nothing even remotely close has ever been displayed, and your argument relies on a bunch of assumptions, and your end goal relies on calc stacking.



You literally sound like Mysticgohan from a few months back in the DBS feats thread claiming Hit can't punch more than a dozen times a second or something to that effect. There is nothing contradicting Dio's attack speed with his reaction speed, his brain sends those mental signals to his limbs through his nervous system. He can parry punches and block strikes from a Stand like Silver Chariot which had no problem striking Hanged Man moving at light speed multiple times, or Jotaro's attacks through Star Platinum in the same vein. You are essentially making a very unsubtle claim of an old outdated trope about attack speed vs travel speed and this is painfully insulting.

And we have never set a different standard for how fast someone can attack being independent of how fast they can react to something. 

So no, I won't buy this. We know where Dio and The World scale from weaker and slower Stands like Hanged Man, Silver Chariot, and Star Platinum and is at least in the triple digit FTL range, we know for a fact that Dio can attack like he can react and we know there's not a single scrap of evidence Dio failing to maintain a sustained focused barrage of punches or strikes when he wants to within or without using his time-stop.

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## Dr. White (Dec 22, 2018)

Will respond another time. Can’t properly tl:dr from mobile.

But I will say, the consensus argument is correct lmao.which is why dio has been downgraded forever. Bringing up two posters in this thread doesn’t mean jack when the community has been denied this which is what imagine already told you.


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## Fang (Dec 22, 2018)

There's no consensus at all, that's something you made up, and since you can't give a refutation to what I'm saying, don't bother replying to me because you aren't going to offer anything new and just repeat yourself.


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## B Rabbit (Dec 22, 2018)

Why is it everytime there is something you don't like there this magical "consensus" to it that favors you?

The Dio being country level based on punch stacking makes sense to me. He's massively ftl and we know for a fact his punches stack. You and another poster isn't exactly a "consensus".

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## Dr. White (Dec 22, 2018)

Fang said:


> There's no consensus at all, that's something you made up, and since you can't give a refutation to what I'm saying, don't bother replying to me because you aren't going to offer anything new and just repeat yourself.


So you are bitching out because you know you’ll get punked? Cool beans.

Lol at you making up bullshit arguments when @Imagine straight up confirmed what I said.

Stay salty fang


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## B Rabbit (Dec 22, 2018)

No.

Imagine stated what the thread said and its being challenged.

The problem you have is that nothing in the OBD is ever confirmed and permanent. If something was said in 2012 and a party agrees to it, but another party in 2018 has actual evidence which @Fang @Kaaant @OneSimpleAnime  have brought to the table than they can challenge and change the rules.

So unless you can bring an actual argument the faux internet tough guy act isn't going to pass.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Fang (Dec 22, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> *snip*



>no argument or refutation to what I said

Cool. And I believe I said don't @ me if you can't give me something that refutes what I said.


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## Dr. White (Dec 22, 2018)

Fang said:


> >no argument or refutation to what I said
> 
> Cool. And I believe I said don't @ me if you can't give me something that refutes what I said.


Yeah because if you read (i know that’s hard for you) i can’t type out a proper response. To which you replied like a scared pre teen, for me not to reply. 

But it’s okay fang, i promise I’ll take it easy on you


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 22, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Did you research this? I’ve been apart of the wiki for several years. I’ve dio go from country level and then be downgraded.
> 
> Imagine straight up confirmed what the consensus was.
> 
> You don’t know what you’re talking about, haven’t researched the shit, yet wanna take sides? Kick rocks my ^ (use bro).


Magine didnt confirm shit, even back then it was near 50-50 and its only been less scrutinized over time because people realized it was bullshit. Things can change and bringing up a contentious point from years ago that was so barely resolved even then doesnt prove anything


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## Dr. White (Dec 22, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Magine didnt confirm shit, even back then it was near 50-50 and its only been less scrutinized over time because people realized it was bullshit. Things can change and bringing up a contentious point from years ago that was so barely resolved even then  prove anything


Yes he did. Read the fucking posts.

It was not long ago. You legit don’t even know what you’re talking about.

Your post makes no sense given the first fucking accepted stance was country level dio, which was then rejected after scrutiny. “Barely resolved” lmao when it was a consensus and not from that long ago.

Nothing has changed since then. No meta made to discuss. Just ignorant people posting about shit they don’t know about.


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## B Rabbit (Dec 22, 2018)

Dio having country level stack punches was going on for a coupke years. Then a few years ago a group came against it, but was never settled. Hell I don't even believe it was an Meta thread.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Dr. White (Dec 22, 2018)

B Rabbit said:


> Dio having country level stack punches was going on for a coupke years. Then a few years ago a group came against it, but was never settled. Hell I don't even believe it was an Meta thread.


It was 100% discussed and resolved. Whoch is why it was changed from country+ to mcb+ on the wiki.


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## B Rabbit (Dec 22, 2018)

Well it looks like it needs to be brought back up. Because I vaguley remember the topic but I think it was one of those in a thread discussion.

Like I said things can be changed based on enough evidence.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 22, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Yes he did. Read the fucking posts.
> 
> It was not long ago. You legit don’t even know what you’re talking about.
> 
> ...


i was part of the thread it was discussed in but okay, it was at least 2+ years ago that the discussion was had


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## B Rabbit (Dec 22, 2018)

I was also in that thread because I vaguely remember it. I don't remember what my thoughts were then. 

I'll just create a new thread because I can't find it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dr. White (Dec 22, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> i was part of the thread it was discussed in but okay, it was at least 2+ years ago that the discussion was had


2 years ago is not “long”.

No new evidence on the subject has emerged.

You want to discuss it? Make a meta for a , new consensus. You are claiming shit as fact against the current consensus. That isn’t how obd works.

Simple as that really. The original calc is debunked. Either make a new calc for supposed DC or make a new meta explaining why the prior consensus was wrong.


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## Dr. White (Dec 22, 2018)

@Montanz @darthgrim @ChaosTheory123 @Ampchu

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 22, 2018)

The problem with timestop damage accumulation in JJBA is that it's never shown to the level the calcs are assuming it should be. There's nothing technically wrong with the numbers but that's irrelevant because there's no actual feat being calculated - it's all a hypothetical. The logic is something like the following:

1. Assuming The World is FTL it can throw X punches in a second (this is borderline calc stacking).
2. Assuming each punch is as strong as the strongest punch they can throw which has Y energy.
3. Then in a timestop they can accumulate Z level of energy which corresponds to Island/Country/Continent/whatever level.

If you're okay with these assumptions then the calc is fine - if you're not then it's not. It's as simple as that. I'm not sure what the modern OBD's stance on hypotheticals like that is but there was a period where it was accepted, then there was a period where it wasn't accepted and now I don't know what the stance is.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Fang (Dec 22, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Yeah because if you read (i know that’s hard for you) i can’t type out a proper response. To which you replied like a scared pre teen, for me not to reply.
> 
> But it’s okay fang, i promise I’ll take it easy on you



I know you can't type out a proper response to begin with, time constraints or not. 

Also stop claiming "consensus" when there never ever was one regarding this.


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## Hachibi (Dec 22, 2018)

If you guys ever so wish, I could make the thread for the Jotaro/Dio timestopping barrage in the Meta


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## Mr. Black Leg (Dec 22, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Pretty sure country level dio isn’t a thing anymore.



Exactly. That ship has sailed a long time ago. This isn't a fair fight, Dio dies after many MUDA tries.

And the problem with the calc was always on finding out how many punches Dio/Jotaro can throw, at which rate and if they actually do it for the whole of the time stop, if each punch has the total power of the stand, etc.



RavenSupreme said:


> Where the hell has nnt ever used calc stacking?



Always. People use multipliers and calc stack the ever living shit out of DC feats for NNT, it is wanked as hell here. " Oh he said that when he deflects the attack it is with double the force of the attack ? Let's actually double the DC results, then " even though WE NEVER DO MULTIPLIERS FOR ANY SERIES WHATSOEVER. Not DBZ, not Toriko, not One Piece, not HxH, etc. But NNT is fair game.

Edit: And yes, it is/was consensus unfortunately.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fang (Dec 22, 2018)

Hachibi said:


> If you guys ever so wish, I could make the thread for the Jotaro/Dio timestopping barrage in the Meta



Go for it, I never argued anything about the sustained damage or not in the time-stop accumulating, only that White was being nonsensical claiming that Dio can't punch millions of times given how fast he is.


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## Blade (Dec 22, 2018)

yeah

the thread must be remade about jotaro's and dio's timestop accumulating barrage damage

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blade (Dec 22, 2018)

gonna make it even

Reactions: Like 1


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 22, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Exactly. That ship has sailed a long time ago. This isn't a fair fight, Dio dies after many MUDA tries.
> 
> And the problem with the calc was always on finding out how many punches Dio/Jotaro can throw, at which rate and if they actually do it for the whole of the time stop, if each punch has the total power of the stand, etc.
> 
> ...



Yeha no thats absolutely wrong.

Calc stacking is using the found value of a certain calculation as a baseline criteria to find a new value performing another calc.

In the case of Dio it even is doubled calc stacking since you use 1) the calculated value A, which is the DC and 2) the calculated value B which is speed as a foundation to find the new 3) calculated value C which is Dios new DC using the baseline products A and B.

Calc.Stacking.

Now what does NNT do?

We found a calculated value A and then used an inverse-stated multiplier to increase that value.

No calculation has been newly created.

You might be not in agreement with multiplier application, but equalizing blatant and actual calc stacking with it is simply wrong and inapplicable, sorry.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Dec 22, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Yeha no thats absolutely wrong.
> 
> Calc stacking is using the found value of a certain calculation as a baseline criteria to find a new value performing another calc.
> 
> ...



Calc stacking also is deriving new values of one calc with losely based assumptions.

And multipliers do that, because, for example, when the guy says " This will be X times more powerful than the last attack ", the author has no idea how much DC (Gt, Tt, Pt, Mt, etc.) the attack is actually packing. Actually, there are many attacks that should be stronger but when calced are actually weaker than the other one and get scaled. 

It's simple: convoluting calcs with author statements, word of god, or character statements is a recipe for disaster and we never do it. Of course, with the exception of NNT.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 22, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Calc stacking also is deriving new values of one calc with losely based assumptions.
> 
> And multipliers do that, because, for example, when the guy says " This will be X times more powerful than the last attack ", the author has no idea how much DC (Gt, Tt, Pt, Mt, etc.) the attack is actually packing. Actually, there are many attacks that should be stronger but when calced are actually weaker than the other one and get scaled.
> 
> It's simple: convoluting calcs with author statements, word of god, or character statements is a recipe for disaster and we never do it. Of course, with the exception of NNT.



Calc stacking is just that. Calc stacking. We cant simply lump anything together and give it one name to fit all only to then easily be able to dismiss it in a "if i cant have mine you cant have yours" moment. 

It is clear that one thing is clearly against the rules of the OBD for years and has never been accepted by anyone whereas the argument of actual inverse mentioned multipliers are depending on the verse, the reliability, the characters etc. etc. 

In addition: This is not a debate about NNT multipliers. This is a debate about Dios accumulated TimeStop damage and why it cant be accepted. Deflecting to another topic from another verse is not moving forward with the actual topic at hand.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Dec 22, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> It is clear that one thing is clearly against the rules of the OBD for years and has never been accepted by anyone whereas the argument of actual inverse mentioned multipliers are depending on the verse, the reliability, the characters etc. etc.



*Sigh* The problem is not the reliability of the character saying, that is not put into question, as some times it is even said by a character who is a scientist and is doing analysis on an attack.

The problem is mixing a calc result with something the author(By a databook, by word of god or by the words of a character) said. Why ? Because the author has fuck all idea about calcs. When he says " 10 times stronger ", some times the attack is actually calc'd to be weaker, and gets scaled to the attack it is 10 times stronger.



RavenSupreme said:


> In addition: This is not a debate about NNT multipliers. This is a debate about Dios accumulated TimeStop damage and why it cant be accepted. Deflecting to another topic from another verse is not moving forward with the actual topic at hand.



There can be a debate about both at the same time (Possibly do one thread in the meta about one and another thread in the meta about the other), they aren't mutually exclusive and both are important to this thread(Because it changes Merlin's and DIO's DC)  ... Why are you trying to stop one debate in favor of the other ? Worried that NNT will end up getting a downgrade ?


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 22, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> *Sigh* The problem is not the reliability of the character saying, that is not put into question, as some times it is even said by a character who is a scientist and is doing analysis on an attack.
> 
> The problem is mixing a calc result with something the author(By a databook, by word of god or by the words of a character) said. Why ? Because the author has fuck all idea about calcs. When he says " 10 times stronger ", some times the attack is actually calc'd to be weaker, and gets scaled to the attack it is 10 times stronger.
> 
> ...



Arguing that the author doesnt know how much speed or DC he created is not an argument, since with that approach each and every single calculation could be dismissed. We calculate precisely because we are not given clear values, not inspite of it. 

They are mutually exclusive. Which is why, if this should get discussed in a Meta thread or whatever, making separate threads about them is necessary. 

As for this thread contrary to your assessment it is not important at all, since Dio will either stay significantly below Merlin, with a DC in the City Block Range whereas Merlin is Island level regardless the Hard Number we assing to her. The difference is in factors by the millions. It does not matter how we view NNT level of strenght here in this thread since they are all in the same ballpark.

DIO on the other hand has either no hope of even scratching Merlin either way with brute force or being able to one-shot in return.

Insinuating me having some form of ulterior motive here or whatever makes no fucking sense and I would like you to drop that

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mr. Black Leg (Dec 22, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Arguing that the author doesnt know how much speed or DC he created is not an argument, since with that approach each and every single calculation could be dismissed. We calculate precisely because we are not given clear values, not inspite of it.



The problem arises from the fact that multipliers are random numbers given by the author, a 100% of the time.

The visual representations are what is worth(That and the info that the author might provide through the characters, like, for example saying something is made out of X material, or saying that X is going at LS, or explaining the mechanics behind of the attack, etc).

The number the author gives is absolutely random. He doesn't know how to assign numbers. Calcs and character statements/author statements about " This is X times the power " are separate worlds and that is why we don't use them.



> They are mutually exclusive. Which is why, if this should get discussed in a Meta thread or whatever, making separate threads about them is necessary.
> 
> As for this thread contrary to your assessment it is not important at all, since Dio will either stay significantly below Merlin, with a DC in the City Block Range whereas Merlin is Island level regardless the Hard Number we assing to her. The difference is in factors by the millions. It does not matter how we view NNT level of strenght here in this thread since they are all in the same ballpark.
> 
> ...



Yes, it is important to determine the outcome of this thread and to more accurately depict what is the difference in power for Merlin.


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## Dr. White (Dec 22, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> The problem arises from the fact that multipliers are random numbers given by the author, a 100% of the time.
> 
> The visual representations are what is worth(That and the info that the author might provide through the characters, like, for example saying something is made out of X material, or saying that X is going at LS, or explaining the mechanics behind of the attack, etc).
> 
> ...


No they aren’t. That’s a completely unfounded claim.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Dec 22, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> No they aren’t. That’s a completely unfounded claim.



Yes they are. 

It is unreasonable as fuck to use multipliers, doesn't matter if the character who said it is a genius. They are random numbers assigned by the author.


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## Dr. White (Dec 22, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Yes they are.
> 
> It is unreasonable as fuck to use multipliers, doesn't matter if the character who said it is a genius. They are random numbers assigned by the author.


They are not random. 

Something like kaio ken is completely different than full counter.

You are falsely equivocating a technique with a specific funxtion with other bullshit multipliers and it’s a logical fallacy. 

So first you called it calc stacking “which it isn’t”, and now you’re confounding multiplier power ups with a specific technique’s function.

It’s the same shit as stat amplifiers from RPG’s. In persona there is a move called “concentrate” which ups your next move by 2.5 of the total damage. Full counter is the same shit except it’s a counter move.


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## Blαck (Dec 22, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Yes they are.
> 
> It is unreasonable as fuck to use multipliers, doesn't matter if the character who said it is a genius. They are random numbers assigned by the author.


Tbf multipliers are used if the author early sets them up, like kaioken for example.


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## Fang (Dec 22, 2018)

Gotta love the mental gymnastics with the double standards here.


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## Jackalinthebox (Dec 22, 2018)

Multipliers being discussed might be needed


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## Dr. White (Dec 22, 2018)

Ayy lmao said:


> how?


I literally explained it in the post you quoted.

Forms buff some for x amount of time. They are very probe to inconsistency. For example SSG goku is universal. If we go by ssb multiplier goku should be capable of easily destroying dozens of universes, let alone people like jiren/beerus.

Full counter is a single use technique with a specific function. 

Can’t really make it easier to understand outside of fang level building blocks.


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## Fang (Dec 22, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Can’t really make it easier to understand outside of fang level building blocks.



As opposed to making insane claims with no basis in reality like "Dio can't sustain x number of punches because its too hard because I say so"? Try again.


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## Dr. White (Dec 22, 2018)

Fang said:


> As opposed to making insane claims with no basis in reality like "Dio can't sustain x number of punches because its too hard because I say so"? Try again.


Are you big mad or little mad?


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## Fang (Dec 22, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Are you big mad or little mad?



Why would I be mad when its your usual case of not having a refutation to making up an ad hoc claim like "split reaction time" between Dio attacking vs his normal reflexes? This is your normal typical case of you stonewalling.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Dec 22, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> They are not random.



They are.

First, language and definition. 

" I've became 10x stronger "

" The attack when reflected is 10x times stronger "

" The attack is now 10x times more devastating "

What is stronger ? What changed ? Can you punch with 10x the energy you did before ? Is the radius of the attack bigger, does the area affected get larger ? Is the attack's mass bigger ? Is the attack's speed bigger ? Is the attack's K.E bigger ? Will the author portray it correctly, the attack destroying 10x times the area than the normal attack not amplified ? Stronger and Devastation aren't physical units, what does it mean an attack that is 10 times stronger ? In the case of a powerup, 10x times stronger means that whatever is the highest the character could lift now it is that times ten ? Or does it mean that the strongest the character could punch is now ten times ? Or both ? Is every aspect of the character multiplied ? 10x DC, 10x Durability, 10x Striking Strength, 10x Lifting Strength, etc ? 

Second, how to assign the numbers.

How will the author be able to assign numbers if the author itself does not know that, IDK, the first attack that got deflected had an exact 10 meters AoE ? Or an exact 10 kiloton DC ? It is random. ALWAYS, if you multiply by ten the last DC that it is scaled to, it won't give exact same results as it is shown.



> Something like kaio ken is completely different than full counter.
> 
> You are falsely equivocating a technique with a specific funxtion with other bullshit multipliers and it’s a logical fallacy.
> 
> ...



There are different types of multipliers, all of them are bullshit tho.


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 22, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Forms buff some for x amount of time.


The amount of time it buffs is entirely irrelevant????



Dr. White said:


> For example SSG goku is universal. If we go by ssb multiplier goku should be capable of easily destroying dozens of universes, let alone people like jiren/beerus.


Being 2x stronger than a universal =/ = multiversal.  Being multiversal means you can destroy 2 separate universes and their 2 spacetime simultaneously, which has to do with raw power, but also hax. Multiplying your power doesnt affect the latter.  

This is also why all characters stronger than SSG, except Zeno, aren't considered multiversal, due to the fact that destroying something multiple times bigger than the universe wont make you multiversal.




Dr. White said:


> Full counter is a single use technique with a specific function.


So is Kaioken? Goku uses Kaioken to multiply his speed and strength, and nothing else? Thats a pretty specific function?? How does Kaioken have complicated functions exactly? It's one of the simplest technique in the series.


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## Montanz (Dec 22, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> They are.
> 
> What is stronger ? What changed ? Can you punch with 10x the energy you did before ? Is the radius of the attack bigger, does the area affected get larger ? Is the attack's mass bigger ? Is the attack's speed bigger ? Is the attack's K.E bigger ? Will the author portray it correctly, the attack destroying 10x times the area than the normal attack not amplified ?



About half of those assumptions would, in fact, require more than a 10x linear increase in energy to achieve in the first place.


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## Kaaant (Dec 23, 2018)

Didn’t nnt guys double the 23gt value to make it escanors base and then doubled it again when he took another fc to make it 96 

Calling anyone out for calc stacking is hilarious. And I don’t even necessarily care about the fc issue.


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## Dr. White (Dec 23, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> Didn’t nnt guys double the 23gt value to make it escanors base and then doubled it again when he took another fc to make it 96
> 
> Calling anyone out for calc stacking is hilarious. And I don’t even necessarily care about the fc issue.


Maybe learn what calc stacking is first before making arguments like this. Unless full counter somehow turned into a calc while I wasn’t looking


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## Mr. Black Leg (Dec 23, 2018)

Well, I've learned that using multipliers is also called calc stacking in the OBD, but okay, if it is not then we'll just have to slap another name on it.

" Multipliers BS " will do it, then.


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## Dr. White (Dec 23, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Well, I've learned that using multipliers is also called calc stacking in the OBD, but okay, if it is not then we'll just have to slap another name on it.
> 
> " Multipliers BS " will do it, then.


Sweet, not all multipliers are the same and numerous have been accepted before the most recent from memory being the bleach one that gave peeps the mach 500 shit regi was pushing.

FC is a move. It has a multiplicative function. You being mad about that doesn’t change reality. Not sure what to tell ya.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 23, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Sweet, not all multipliers are the same and numerous have been accepted before the most recent from memory being the bleach one that gave peeps the mach 500 shit regi was pushing.
> 
> FC is a move. It has a multiplicative function. You being mad about that doesn’t change reality. Not sure what to tell ya.


Mach 500 aint even matter anymore, most people are mach 3200+


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## Dr. White (Dec 23, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Mach 500 aint even matter anymore, most people are mach 3200+


Ok? That’s irrelevant as we are talking about the multiplier acceptance not the verses speed.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 23, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Ok? That’s irrelevant as we are talking about the multiplier acceptance not the verses speed.


Yea except NNT literally stacks its multipliers to get 96gt


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## Dr. White (Dec 23, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Yea except NNT literally stacks its multipliers to get 96gt


Ok? 

It’s stacking multipliers because it’s a direct consequence to scaling when people have their previous known value reflected at them and they tank. No amount of crying is going to change that.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 23, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Ok?
> 
> It’s stacking multipliers because it’s a direct consequence to scaling when people have their previous known value reflected at them and they tank. No amount of crying is going to change that.


And no amount of crying is going to get rid of timestop damage stacking

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dr. White (Dec 23, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> And no amount of crying is going to get rid of timestop damage stacking


Good thing no one was arguing against the accumulation, just the amount of accumulation which still remains as it was which = country level Dio still not being a thing


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## Fang (Dec 23, 2018)

So White abuses multipliers for  NNT to inflate its DC? Interesting.

Reactions: Like 1


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 23, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> Didn’t nnt guys double the 23gt value to make it escanors base and then doubled it again when he took another fc to make it 96
> 
> Calling anyone out for calc stacking is hilarious. And I don’t even necessarily care about the fc issue.



When you dont care about the FC issue then you cant complain about it. 

Since the one thing is not calc stacking whereas this instance is. Making some laugh emojies doesnt change that fact.


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Dec 23, 2018)

“multipliers do not multiply an attacks damage output despite the author explicitly saying so and it not being contradicted in the story because I said so”

are people being purposefully obtuse or?


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 23, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> The problem arises from the fact that multipliers are random numbers given by the author, a 100% of the time.
> 
> The visual representations are what is worth(That and the info that the author might provide through the characters, like, for example saying something is made out of X material, or saying that X is going at LS, or explaining the mechanics behind of the attack, etc).
> 
> ...



You already have given another reason of why these instances are not comparable.

You state that multipliers are given by the author - as such they already completely differentiate from the appropach of finding new values based not by author given criteria but by own previously found values.

Whether or not an author given multiplier for one series is applicable is of no meaning or importance in a discussion about the non-appliance of calc stacking in another, where absolutely no author given statement or value is involved.

Which is incidentially also the reason why the multiplier debate is not important. Since the outcome does not hing on the verdict of the multiplier acceptance but on the verdict of the calc stacking one.


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 24, 2018)

OKay, so can anyone explain to me why Kaioken multipliers aren't accepted, but FC is? When they do essentially the same thing?


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 24, 2018)

kaioken multipliers have always been accepted


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 24, 2018)

Ayy lmao said:


> OKay, so can anyone explain to me why Kaioken multipliers aren't accepted, but FC is? When they do essentially the same thing?



Kaioken is too generalized since we dont know exactly how much of its multiplication goes into what spec and how it impacts the referring damage or speed output or the durability.

the FC is an exclusive multiplier to a single individual attack which only works with the respective AP. There is no room for doubt in exactly what way it works


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 24, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Kaioken is too generalized since we dont know exactly how much of its multiplication goes into what spec and how it impacts the referring damage or speed output or the durability.
> 
> the FC is an exclusive multiplier to a single individual attack which only works with the respective AP. There is no room for doubt in exactly what way it works


Its said multiple times it multiplies his speed and power, and Goku literally says the multiplier out loud. If he says its x2 it doesnt mean x1.5 for both stats, that would be fucking stupid


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 24, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Its said multiple times it multiplies his speed and power, and Goku literally says the multiplier out loud. If he says its x2 it doesnt mean x1.5 for both stats, that would be fucking stupid



If the kaioken multiplier truly works specific like that I don’t see why it should not be accepted then


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 24, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Kaioken is too generalized since we dont know exactly how much of its multiplication goes into what spec and how it impacts the referring damage or speed output or the durability.


Vegeta said his speed doubled when he used Kaoiken X2. Kaioken is stated to multiply the users' strength and speed, and does nothing else. Not sure how much more straightforward it could be.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 24, 2018)

Ayy lmao said:


> Vegeta said his speed doubled when he used Kaoiken X2. Kaioken is stated to multiply the users' strength and speed, and does nothing else. Not sure how much more straightforward it could be.



OneSimpleAnime made me aware of this apparent specifism. So I dont see a problem here if thats true


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Dec 24, 2018)

the user of kaiokens ki also rises 

is that more of a side effect than?

otherwise, ki isn’t mentioned at all in the description of kaioken yet we see a visualization and have an understanding that it raises the users ki massively 

being that all damage output in dbz/s is effected by ki, it could more than likely be a larger increase than x2 seeing as its not just speed and strength multiplied. 

someone in dbs can have universal strength and speed without the need of ki as well 

idk, dbs is wonky


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## Juan (Dec 25, 2018)

so, if we're accepting kaioken

and piccolo's moon bust is relativistic. 

wouldn't kaioken x20 make goku and co ftl...?


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## Gordo solos (Dec 25, 2018)

Ayy lmao said:


> Vegeta said his speed doubled when he used Kaoiken X2. Kaioken is stated to multiply the users' strength and speed, and does nothing else. Not sure how much more straightforward it could be.


Goku also outright said it multiplies his speed, power, durability, etc


*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Like 3


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 25, 2018)

darthgrim said:


> kaioken multipliers have always been accepted


If that were the case, then everyone and their mother past the Frieza Saga should be FTL and star level, yet Vegito and Buuhan have the same stats as first form Frieza.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 25, 2018)

Ayy lmao said:


> If that were the case, then everyone and their mother past the Frieza Saga should be FTL and star level, yet Vegito and Buuhan have the same stats as first form Frieza.


Back in the day the argument was that a multiplier only applied once. The Calc stacking element arises when you use the multiplier to prove a new base level and then multiply again over and over. Willy used to be against this logic and argued that super saiayan was narratively a stronger form change than KK20 so should count as a new multiplier as well but that argument never really made headway because 2013 OBD was far stricter about stuff like this.

Still - I can tell you that kaioken absolutely applied to saiayan saga calculations, it's like the entire reason that Freiza saga was MHS+ before people accepted energy blast speed feats.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 25, 2018)

See also: Bleach and byakuyas twice as fast statement.


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 25, 2018)

darthgrim said:


> Still - I can tell you that kaioken absolutely applied to saiayan saga calculations, it's like the entire reason that Freiza saga was MHS+ before people accepted energy blast speed feats.


So you are saying we should only use kaioken multipliers once, and not apply the same multiplier multiple times? Because that i can agree with.  And yeah, that's what people have been doing with Bleach. 

However,  NNT seems to apply the same multiplier several times, which is accepted for whatever reason.  the DC of an attack that is at 23 GT IRRC, is applied twice , from 2 different instances of Meliodas using full counter, quadrupling the calc's initiate DC.


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## Dr. White (Dec 25, 2018)

Ayy lmao said:


> So you are saying we should only use kaioken multipliers once, and not apply the same multiplier multiple times? Because that i can agree with.  And yeah, that's what people have been doing with Bleach.
> 
> However,  NNT seems to apply the same multiplier several times, which is accepted for whatever reason.  the DC of an attack that is at 23 GT IRRC, is applied twice , from 2 different instances of Meliodas using full counter, quadrupling the calc's initiate DC.


Yes because full counter is not a mode that one enters. It’s a technique. 

Calcs are not hard numbers. It is a value that gives us a generalballpark due to margin of error. So when full counter increases the potency of an attack and is tanked, matched, reflected, etc it gives a new baseline for power.

Realistically someone like AM Mel/ escanor are dozens to hundreds of times strknger than dolor who had the original island level feat. So it’s not like FC is buffing the verse to crazy planet level shit. 23-96 GT isn’t even a big jump, and as stated FC mechanics are a fact in verse. Ignoring it would just be dishonest.


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 25, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Yes because full counter is not a mode that one enters. It’s a technique.


 Since when was the rule that you can only upgrade attacks, and not modes? That was never the issue, ever.

 And regardless, all of Goku's `Kaioken X2 ki attacks, that Vegeta had no issue reacting to and dodging, are techniques, which speed and DC have been doubled as well, so not sure where you are going with this.

As for the rest of your comment, nothing you said doesn't apply to Dragon Ball. By the same logic, it would be dishonest to give Vegeto SSJ1 the same speed and DC as first form Frieza. And yet we would do exactly that, if Kaioken scaling isn't accepted.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 25, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> the idea he can throw billions of mudas in 5 seconds


Well...Cant speak to the whole damage accumulation thing...

But I dont know why we are assuming merely 5 seconds when the version of DIO wasnt specified and his peak Time Stop was 10 seconds not 5...


Fang said:


> lmao at "Dio NOT being able at throwing millions" of punches when he's confirmed FTL just from scaling from Hanged Man, Silver Chariot, and Star Platinum


Yeah also this

The fact TW is FTL would mean millions of punches per second are a breeze for him...Especially with Time Stop potentially being twice what everyone is assuming it is


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## Toaa (Dec 27, 2018)

So merlin wins here?


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## Kaaant (Dec 27, 2018)

Merlin has literally no means of touching him. He hits her until she dies


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 27, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> Merlin has literally no means of touching him. He hits her until she dies


Which would be a long time cause island level >Town Level


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## Dr. White (Dec 27, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> Merlin has literally no means of touching him. He hits her until she dies


She can barricade herself in a perfect cube and simply set a bunch of spells to “tracking”, “automatic”, and “transparent”. Layer infinity and viola.

Dio doesn’t have FTL travel speed so he will eventually get hit, and once she is in PC he has no means to touch her.


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## Fang (Dec 28, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> She can barricade herself in a perfect cube and simply set a bunch of spells to “tracking”, “automatic”, and “transparent”. Layer infinity and viola.
> 
> Dio doesn’t have FTL travel speed so he will eventually get hit, and once she is in PC he has no means to touch her.



>Travel speed vs combat speed nonsense

Jesus


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## Toaa (Dec 28, 2018)

Does dio have the same speed as star platinum?


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 28, 2018)

Merlin will realize she gets tickled and comfortably relax in a perfect cube while having some infinity spells around her.

After a while dio crashes with lightsped into them and that’s it


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## Toaa (Dec 28, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Merlin will realize she gets tickled and comfortably relax in a perfect cube while having some infinity spells around her.
> 
> After a while dio crashes with lightsped into them and that’s it


But dio does not move in lightspeed only the world who needs to be within two meters of him?I remember something along those lines.And dio by himself does not move at ftl speeds for sure


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## Kaaant (Dec 28, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Dio doesn’t have FTL travel speed so he will eventually get hit, and once she is in PC he has no means to touch her.



What?

Dio can physically move ftl


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## Toaa (Dec 28, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> What?
> 
> Dio can physically move ftl


Yeah.But thats only for reactions.Noone should be moving at ftl speeds when running.Also im not sure if the worlds speed applies to dio.Or if dio only scales to Joseph


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## Kaaant (Dec 28, 2018)

Joseph can literally dodge beams of light and dio can react to shit like emerald splash while sitting down.


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## Toaa (Dec 28, 2018)

Which i just mentioned?But they cant run at those speeds.Also dio cannnot harn merlin


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## Kaaant (Dec 28, 2018)

“can’t run at those speeds”

Except they literally have.

Merlin gets her head punched in.


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## Toaa (Dec 28, 2018)

Lile they used it to get to egypt?

Also dio is town level with timestop.Are you even listening?


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## Kaaant (Dec 28, 2018)

Playing low end feats when meliodas gets fucked up by sub kiloton combo Star. 

Lel

Ban and co are mach xxxx yet he takes multiple chapters to reach the fight happening right now. Nice try. 

I don’t buy he’s only town level. You could use the “argument” that damage stacking doesn’t work (when we know it does) even on the town level stat.


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## Toaa (Dec 28, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> Playing low end feats when meliodas gets fucked up by sub kiloton combo Star.
> 
> Lel
> 
> ...


Well town level was agreed by nearly everyone including elric and iwan.


At least you have galan doing the jump and them actually moving at high speeds.But noone in jojo moves that fast.


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## Kaaant (Dec 28, 2018)

Two people. Like I said the argument used to downplay country level or whatever can be used on town level too. 

Only galan has done that. No one else has, and we can see right now ban is only just arriving.


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## Toaa (Dec 28, 2018)

Ban already arrived.And you know everyone is also fighting at those speeds?

However I do want to make sure of dio's travelling speed.

Also without time stop dio is city block or sth?And with time stop he is only town level?Merlin's regeneration would offset the damage.


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## Kaaant (Dec 28, 2018)

Can’t understand a word you’re saying


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## Toaa (Dec 28, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> Can’t understand a word you’re saying


First ban already arrived at the battle.
Also the reason that they are so slow to arrive is that everyone is also battling at their speed.


As for dio's speed I would like a clarification.


But as it stands dio is city block level or sth without time stop and town level with time stop.


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## Kaaant (Dec 28, 2018)

Toaa said:


> Also the reason that they are so slow to arrive is that everyone is also battling at their speed.



This makes no sense. 



Toaa said:


> But as it stands dio is city block level or sth without time stop and town level with time stop.



And neither does this. “He can only damage stack to this random level we have decided” literally does not make any sense.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 28, 2018)

The speed should get scaled to travel speed as well for Dio. We do it for nearly every other verse including NNT which also has low travel speed showings


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## Toaa (Dec 28, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> The speed should get scaled to travel speed as well for Dio. We do it for nearly every other verse including NNT which also has low travel speed showings


I remember that we do not.Alright if thats the case.


Also kaant then reply to the meta thread.Else dio is only town level and gets murdered.


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## Dr. White (Dec 28, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> The speed should get scaled to travel speed as well for Dio. We do it for nearly every other verse including NNT which also has low travel speed showings


Not really. NnT has a bunch if fast travel feats, Escanor casually jetting over mountain ranges when he got to hot after galan fight, merlin wizzing mamahawk/boarhat around albion like a fly on crack via TK, the 10c jetting in vs meliodas after dolor/glox fights, etc

The LS feats for jojo are all close quarter combat feats/reaction feats, that doesn’t scale to their casual movement speed over long distances. I don’t recall any feat in the series displaying such movement.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 28, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Not really. NnT has a bunch if fast travel feats, Escanor casually jetting over mountain ranges when he got to hot after galan fight, merlin wizzing mamahawk/boarhat around albion like a fly on crack via TK, the 10c jetting in vs meliodas after dolor/glox fights, etc
> 
> The LS feats for jojo are all close quarter combat feats/reaction feats, that doesn’t scale to their casual movement speed over long distances. I don’t recall any feat in the series displaying such movement.


Dio and Jotaro can both fly


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## Toaa (Dec 28, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Not really. NnT has a bunch if fast travel feats, Escanor casually jetting over mountain ranges when he got to hot after galan fight, merlin wizzing mamahawk/boarhat around albion like a fly on crack via TK, the 10c jetting in vs meliodas after dolor/glox fights, etc
> 
> The LS feats for jojo are all close quarter combat feats/reaction feats, that doesn’t scale to their casual movement speed over long distances. I don’t recall any feat in the series displaying such movement.


That was my ptoblem actually.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 28, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Ok?


And their flight is fast enough to keep up with their stands movement

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dr. White (Dec 28, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> And their flight is fast enough to keep up with their stands movement


What does that mean? Show me feats of this? It needs to be over range. Or else it’s in the same category as Kars physically responding to the uv ray, ala short range movement.


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## Toaa (Dec 28, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> And their flight is fast enough to keep up with their stands movement


I mean their stands cant get far away from them


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 28, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Not really. NnT has a bunch if fast travel feats, Escanor casually jetting over mountain ranges when he got to hot after galan fight, merlin wizzing mamahawk/boarhat around albion like a fly on crack via TK, the 10c jetting in vs meliodas after dolor/glox fights, etc
> 
> The LS feats for jojo are all close quarter combat feats/reaction feats, that doesn’t scale to their casual movement speed over long distances. I don’t recall any feat in the series displaying such movement.



Nnt also has ridiculous low showings for travel speed like Diane needing to throw the sins 40 miles to Camelot in times of crisis

Reactions: Like 1


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## Toaa (Dec 28, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Nnt also has ridiculous low showings for travel speed like Diane needing to throw the sins 40 miles to Camelot in times of crisis


Thing is that half of stardust crusaders was them travelling to egypt


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 28, 2018)

Toaa said:


> Thing is that half of stardust crusaders was them travelling to egypt



Low showings doesn’t invalidate high showings tho. We accept things and overlook things for one verse means we do it for all


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## Dr. White (Dec 28, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Nnt also has ridiculous low showings for travel speed like Diane needing to throw the sins 40 miles to Camelot in times of crisis


Why are you using a 1st arc feat? That has been eclipsed already so it’s not really a coonter argument. Hell the galan calculation is legitimately a long distance travel feat, so does the diane stuff you brought up invalidate the calc?

There is also a difference between finding low end feats which get put against high end feats to find the most consistent portrayal, and simpy taking a bunch of reaction feats with no long distance feats, and trying to conflate them to casual movement especially over distances.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Toaa (Dec 28, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Low showings doesn’t invalidate high showings tho. We accept things and overlook things for one verse means we do it for all


Problem is jojo has literally no feats for travelling speed.They only have shown fast reactions and thats my problem here.The fact that we treat them like they move at ftl speeds while thats only their reaction speed.

Also how high is their reaction speed?Do they have the same reaction speed as their stance or do they only get the scaling from joseph dodging sunlight?


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