# Hebi Sasuke vs. Sasori



## StickaStick (Sep 27, 2014)

*Location*: Sasori vs. Sakaura and Chiyo
*Distance*: 25m
*Knowledge*: Full
*Intent*: I.C.; To Kill

*Restrictions*: Summons for Sasuke.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 27, 2014)

I think you should either take away full knowledge or restrict Chidori Eisō for Sasuke.


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## Hachibi (Sep 27, 2014)

Sasuke is immune to poison to a extend according to Kakashi, so he should be fine with some of Sasori's poisons.

I see him winning more time than not.


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## JuicyG (Sep 27, 2014)

I think this is a toughie for Sauce. I could actually see him losing this because Sasori's puppets can be hard to deal with by yourself, and that nonsense about sasuke being immune to poison is stupid, Sasori is an expert with that shit.


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## Crow (Sep 27, 2014)

Sasuke wins this because he has an immunity to poisons to a little extent as stated above. But also Sasukes can break Hiruko with ease by using Chidori and with full knowledge Sasuke will know to pierce his heart piece with the chidori chakra sword


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## JuicyG (Sep 27, 2014)

If he takes away knowledge its an almost guaranteed win for Sasori


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## Nikushimi (Sep 27, 2014)

This is close; I'd say the outcome depends on Hebi Sasuke's resistance to poison, and whether or not Sasori's can kill or incapacitate him.


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## Pocalypse (Sep 27, 2014)

I actually don't think Sasuke would be immune to poison. Didn't Sasori make new poison when he encountered Sakura and Chiyo? Seems like once someone knows his poison, he will make a new one so they don't have the immunity anymore. Since Oro was Sasori's partner he probably just had the immunity from old poisons which Sasori made.


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## ARGUS (Sep 27, 2014)

Sasuke wins this 

 - His CS2 skin is more than durable enough to prevent himself from the poison being breached, and he also hass more than enough speed to evade roughly all of sasoris attacks 

 - His flight enables him to evade poison gas, as he  can also close the distance to wreck hiruko 

 - Third Kazekags IS can be matched by hydra with ease, and none of IS attacks bar Iron Forest (which leaves the puppet vulnerable) are even worth mentioning, but now that Sasuke has CS2 flight, he can also evade its onslaught, and then one shot the puppet with chidori puppet 

 - Hydra can also match the 100 puppets and since the puppets lack the durability, sasuke can match them perfectly thoguh his tai/kenjutsu and with his sharingan being able to locate the fact that sasoris heart is his weakness means that sasuke either stabs him with a raiton infused blade,or can finish him with chidori stream


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## Turrin (Sep 27, 2014)

Depends if Hebi-Sasuke is immune to his poison. If he is than were looking at a high diff fight that could go ether way. If he isn't than Sasori takes this w/ Mid difficulty.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 27, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Sasuke is immune to poison to a extend according to Kakashi, so he should be fine with some of Sasori's poisons.
> 
> I see him winning more time than not.



To an extent. Sasori is the most proficient poison maker in the manga to date. 

Sasori thought it was impossible to make an antidote because he leaves so little behind. And was surprised they could make an antidote from the poison inside Kankuro.

scan 
scan 

Also didn't Sasuke get affected by Orochimaru's poison as well?


Sasori takes this. His puppets are to much, and Iron sand makes it a stomp. I don't see Sasuke evading every single attack from every single puppet and dodging the Iron Sand.



			
				Argus said:
			
		

> - His CS2 skin is more than durable enough to prevent himself from the poison being breached, and he also hass more than enough speed to evade roughly all of sasoris attacks


The wings are more durable, I don't think we ever seen his skin increase to such a level. Also CS2 slows him down. TO evade for a time yes, but eventually his speed will run out.





> - His flight enables him to evade poison gas, as he can also close the distance to wreck hiruko


Gliding not flight, and leaves him open to Iron sand. Hiruko isn't defenseless, it has plenty of traps equipped.





> - Third Kazekags IS can be matched by hydra with ease, and none of IS attacks bar Iron Forest (which leaves the puppet vulnerable) are even worth mentioning, but now that Sasuke has CS2 flight, he can also evade its onslaught, and then one shot the puppet with chidori puppet


The poison will paralyze the hydra which is infused with the Iron sand. And Iron sand has a massive AoE of which Sasori can alter the form and shape at will. Also the thrid Kazekage is a puppet with traps and many attacks. YOu forgot about Iron Sand: Drizzle Then you also have Iron Sand: World model 





> - Hydra can also match the 100 puppets and since the puppets lack the durability, sasuke can match them perfectly thoguh his tai/kenjutsu and with his sharingan being able to locate the fact that sasoris heart is his weakness means that sasuke either stabs him with a raiton infused blade,or can finish him with chidori stream


Hydra can match the puppets until one lands a blow and paralyzes it. And no Sasuke can't fight 100 puppets with nintaijutsu, kenjutsu, or ninjutsu. The only way Sasuke can legitimately fight against the 100 puppets is summons...well hell even those won't help they'll get paralyzed as well.

Also you seem to not include that all puppets are designed with traps that activate quickly and that the more that get taken out the better the other ones get.


Sasori 10/10 mid diff.


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## Bonly (Sep 27, 2014)

Depends on how Sasuke's supposedly poison resistance would match up to Sasori's poisons. If Sasuke does well against it then Sasuke would win more times then not eventually, if it doesn't match up to well then Sasuke's gonna lose more times then not eventually.


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## krolk88 (Sep 28, 2014)

I think its pretty obvious hebi sauce has immunity to sasori's poison,as sasori though he had kabuto on his side so kabuto likely knew what sasori's poison is made of(possibly had a sample = had an antidote too and was probably prepped to use it when sasori comes to the bridge).

As for sasuke not being immune to oro's poison-why'd oro give him immunity to that when it was his only hope at taking over his body...


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## Hachibi (Sep 28, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> To an extent. Sasori is the most proficient poison maker in the manga to date.
> 
> Sasori thought it was impossible to make an antidote because he leaves so little behind. And was surprised they could make an antidote from the poison inside Kankuro.
> 
> ...



Orochimaru's poison was simply superior to Sasuke's poison resistance.


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## Cord (Sep 28, 2014)

I'm still of the opinion that Sasuke, to an extent, has some degree of resistance to Sasori's poison. It just makes sense that Orochimaru has at least tried to make his future vessel's body invulnerable to it, in the off-chance that Sasuke might encounter someone like Sasori in combat, regardless of how possible (or impossible) such encounter would be. 

The most common argument to debunk that notion is how Orochimaru was able to poison Sasuke despite the presumed "resistance" to poison. Well, the former obviously did not make him resistant to *his* own poison for convenience purposes and on the likelihood that Sasuke would betray or defy him—which was exactly what happened. That doesn't by any means, impicate that he didn't make him immune to Sasori's poison.

Another one would be Orochimaru's knowledge about Sasori's poison. Does he have the most recent specimen to experiment upon? I've no idea. But I would assume so. Sasori is confident that no one will ever be able to combat his poison and having its remnants on his innumerable victims' corpses is the least of his worries. It's more than likely that Kabuto was somehow able to find and acquire some. And it shouldn't be questionable if Kabuto has the same medical prowess to create an antidote as potent as Sakura's.

Anyway, I can no longer count how many times I've posted in a Hebi Sasuke vs Sasori thread so I'm just going to link an  that has my full analysis of this match. Even if he cannot use Kuchiyose, I think Nagashi and his Juin are enough to give him protection.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 28, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Orochimaru's poison was simply superior to Sasuke's poison resistance.



And Sasori's poison is stronger than Orochimaru's. Nothing suggest that Sasuke has such an immunity to high degree potent poisons such as Sasori's.




			
				LunaLovgood said:
			
		

> Another one would be Orochimaru's knowledge about Sasori's poison. Does he have the most recent specimen to experiment upon? I've no idea. But I would assume so. Sasori is confident that no one will ever be able to combat his poison and having its remnants on his innumerable victims' corpses is the least of his worries. It's more than likely that Kabuto was somehow able to find and acquire some. And it shouldn't be questionable if Kabuto has the same medical prowess to create an antidote as potent as Sakura's.



Kabuto was working for Sasori, he was Sasori's spy. Also Sasori isn't going to give Kabuto his recipe.

Sasori was utterly surprised that they was able to make an antidote from the small amount of poison in Kankuuro. And the best the antidote could due is 3 minutes because of what someone has to do to make the antidote. Ive done posted the scan and given that Sasori and Orochimaru haven't been partners for a while by then I don't believe that Sasori will be using the same recipe and I don't know if Orochimaru has enough skills by himself to do it, Kabuto no doubt if he had a specimen. Fact is though there is no immunity to all poisons, and Sasori's is of the highest calibur shown.


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## t0xeus (Sep 28, 2014)

There should also be stated what weather it is when talking about p2 Sasuke. 

Otherwise I can't say anything else than KirinGG.


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## RedChidori (Sep 28, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Sasuke wins this
> 
> - His CS2 skin is more than durable enough to prevent himself from the poison being breached, and he also hass more than enough speed to evade roughly all of sasoris attacks
> 
> ...



The accuracy in this post is undeniable .


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## Hachibi (Sep 28, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> And Sasori's poison is stronger than Orochimaru's. Nothing suggest that Sasuke has such an immunity to high degree potent poisons such as Sasori's.



Prove that Sasori has a better poison then Orochimaru then.

Inb4 Sasori's kill while Oro's doesn't.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Depends if Hebi-Sasuke is immune to his poison. If he is than were looking at a high diff fight that could go ether way. If he isn't than Sasori takes this w/ Mid difficulty.



Aren't you the guy that has kept going on and on and on about how Deidara and Sasori are weaklings because they got blitzed by Sai, and then mentioned how Deidara wasn't automatically blitzed by Sasuke only due to Tobi's help?

Then by that same regard I say, Sasuke blitzes and owns Sasori's slow-ass with Chidori eisou.

Sasori was the first Akatsuki member to get killed and lost to girls. Not only girls, but an old hag and a chuunin level kunoichi. 

He's a chump.

And like you have repeated countless times, he got blitzed in the war, by Sai and trapped by Kankurou. It took just those 2 fodder to make him die.


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## Cord (Sep 28, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Kabuto was working for Sasori, he was Sasori's spy. Also Sasori isn't going to give Kabuto his recipe.



Yeah and they did not meet in years. But I did not suggest that Sasori would give Kabuto his recipe. It's a matter of Kabuto finding a specimen of Sasori's poison - which shouldn't be difficult to obtain.


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## Hachibi (Sep 28, 2014)

Luna Lovegood said:


> Yeah and they did not meet in years. But I did not suggest that Sasori would give Kabuto his recipe. It's a *matter of Kabuto* finding a specimen of Sasori's poison - which shouldn't be difficult to obtain.





> matter of Kabuto



Poor Kabuto


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## Legendary Itachi (Sep 28, 2014)

Did Kabuto know Sasori more than Oro? It seems Oro himself has more knowledge on Sasori than Kabuto did.

Sasori left Kankuro dead because he believes none in Suna can create the antidote, but he won't treat Oro that recklessly. He knows about Oro's crazy experiments after all. I don't think he's that careless to believe Oro won't do sth on his spy and let him discover his new weapons easily.


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## Nikushimi (Sep 28, 2014)

Deidara vs. Sasuke was a close fight, so this should be too.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 28, 2014)

Luna Lovegood said:


> Yeah and they did not meet in years. But I did not suggest that Sasori would give Kabuto his recipe. It's a matter of Kabuto finding a specimen of Sasori's poison - which shouldn't be difficult to obtain.



But how would Kabuto come into contact with it? Not to mention that he was a spy for Konoha at the time and Sasori was running around with Akatsuki. And yes it is very difficult to obtain, that is why Sasori was stunned that she made an antidote and explained that even a master would need the recipe and not make a hairline mistake in mixing the ingredients. Sorry but unless you have proof that Kabuto has come into contact with Sasori's poison then your basis is false.


@Hachibi- And the only poison that we have ever seen Sasuke immune to is the one Sakura coated her kunai with which was taught by Shizune who was taught by Tsunade. And Orochimaru's poison has never shown the potential to kill just paralyze. You made the statement that Sasuke would be immune...so prove it.

I can prove though that Sasuke has been poisoned before, after being "immune" to it. The best Sakura could do was to make an antidote that makes you immune for 3 minutes. Also Sasuke inhaled tons of gas to be paralyzed from Orochimaru yet one little scratch from Sasori's nearly instantly paralyzes the enemy so just off the volume that both have to use to affect the target I would say that Sasori's is more potent.


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## Hachibi (Sep 28, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> @Hachibi- And the only poison that we have ever seen Sasuke immune to is the one Sakura coated her kunai with which was taught by Shizune who was taught by Tsunade. And Orochimaru's poison has never shown the potential to kill just paralyze. You made the statement that Sasuke would be immune...so prove it.
> 
> I can prove though that Sasuke has been poisoned before, after being "immune" to it. The best Sakura could do was to make an antidote that makes you immune for 3 minutes. Also Sasuke inhaled tons of gas to be paralyzed from Orochimaru yet one little scratch from Sasori's nearly instantly paralyzes the enemy so just off the volume that both have to use to affect the target I would say that Sasori's is more potent.



Oro never made Sasuke immune to his own poison because that would be stupid. And if Early part 2 Sakura could make a antidote, then so can Oro and Kabuto, unless Ealry Part 2 Sakura >>>>>>>> Oro and Kabuto.


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## StickaStick (Sep 28, 2014)

I don't have time for a more detailed reply ATM, but I want to say that I don't quite see Sasuke getting Sasori with a Chidori Eisō. I attribute this to two things: (1) Sasori is decently fast with a 4.5 in the DB, for whatever that's worth; and (2) Sasuke apparently didn't think Chidori Eisō was fast enough to impale a sick Itachi who was feeling the after-effects of Tsukuyomi usage and instead opted to use that Shadown Shuriken instead, which tells me that either Sasuke's a dumbass or Chidori Eisō isn't _that _fast/hard to evade. I would prefer to assume the latter. So if we accept that and the fact that Sasori has better mobility to evade things than a sick Itachi feeling the after-effects of MS usage, I don't see Sasori w/ full knowledge falling prey to it under most circumstances.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 28, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Deidara vs. Sasuke was a close fight, so this should be too.



Sasuke was holding back not to kill him. He needed info about Itachi's whereabouts. Otherwise, Kirin could have fried Deidara.

@ The Format. Even a Sick Itachi is considerably faster than Sasori is. Chiyo may have knew Sasori's attack pattern, but the fact that he she was able to replicate those exact same moves in a way that Sakura's slow body could react suggests a much much much faster Sasuke with sharingan precog would have no problem in dodging atleast Sasori's initial onslaught, and thats without Curseseal, and then sattisfactory use a Kirin on Sasori, which was an IC move at the time for him, since he was gonna use it instantly on Team 7, and didn't againts Deidara because he wanted Deidara alive to ask him about Itachi's whereabouts.

So I agree, Sasuke might not ressort to Chidori Eisou (although that is probably a sure win), but he still wins with mid- diff.


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## Cord (Sep 28, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> But how would Kabuto come into contact with it? Not to mention that he was a spy for Konoha at the time and Sasori was running around with Akatsuki. And yes it is very difficult to obtain, that is why Sasori was stunned that she made an antidote and explained that even a master would need the recipe and not make a hairline mistake in mixing the ingredients.



Sasori's previous victims. And he can also depend on Orochimaru's prior knowledge about his former partner. Sasori was surprised that she was able to make an antidote because he never expected that there's someone skilled enough to learn and combat the complexity of his poison. Not the the difficulty of its acquisition.



> Sorry but unless you have proof that Kabuto has come into contact with Sasori's poison then your basis is false.



And unless you can prove that Kabuto really wasn't able to obtain any specimen from the time he fled Konoha (when he stopped being the village's spy) to the beginning of part two, then your basis is false. 

.... I can twist words too. The absence of evidence is not an evidence of absence. One can only assume that he must have. Otherwise, he and Orochimaru wouldn't have been so confident to face and defeat Sasori during their planned rendezvous.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 28, 2014)

Sasori was owned by two girls and then by Sai and Kankuro. Enough said.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 28, 2014)

Orochimaru doesn't need immunity to Sasori's poison to fight him, because he can kind of do this thing where he casts off the poisoned body and all.....



Hachibi said:


> And if Early part 2 Sakura could make a antidote, then so can Oro and Kabuto, unless Ealry Part 2 Sakura >>>>>>>> Oro and Kabuto.



I don't like this.

The poison is so difficult to counter that even Sasori himself needs to specifically reference his mix ratio table for that and he's the one who put the thing together in the first place. He doubted even Chiyo could do it and she said that the only one more well versed in antidotes than she was would be Tsunade herself (so she was looking beyond just Sunagakure). Sakura was able to come up with the antidote by applying what she had been taught by Tsunade, who _is_ >>>>> Orochimaru and Kabuto in medicine even by their own admission.

That isn't to say I necessarily think they'd be incapable of it, but I don't think the fact that Sakura could counter the poison brings you to the conclusion that Kabuto and Orochimaru could as well.


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## Hachibi (Sep 28, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> I don't like this.
> 
> The poison is so difficult to counter that even Sasori himself needs to specifically reference his mix ratio table for that and he's the one who put the thing together in the first place. He doubted even Chiyo could do it and she said that the only one more well versed in antidotes than she was would be Tsunade herself. Sakura was able to come up with the antidote by applying what she had been taught by Tsunade, who _is_ >>>>> Orochimaru and Kabuto in medicine even by their own admission.



Early Sakura isn't Tsunade tho, and it's unlikely she's at Kabuto's level in medicine at the time and have Orochimaru's knowledge.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 28, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Early Sakura isn't Tsunade tho, and it's unlikely she's at Kabuto's level in medicine at the time and have Orochimaru's knowledge.



She doesn't need to be Tsunade, the point stands that Tsunade's medicinal methods far eclipse Kabuto and Chiyo's and those were the ones Sakura was using in that particular instance. It's what she's been taught how to operate with; it even provoked Chiyo to go "Hey you remind me of that slug lass."

And moreover just what do you mean she didn't have Orochimaru's knowledge? _She had the poison itself at hand_.


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## Hachibi (Sep 28, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> She doesn't need to be Tsunade, the point stands that Tsunade's medicinal methods far eclipse Kabuto and Chiyo's and those were the ones Sakura was using. It's what she's been taught how to use.
> 
> Exactly why is it so unlikely that she's at Kabuto's level in medicine, though? And moreover just what do you mean she didn't have Orochimaru's knowledge? _She had the poison itself at hand_.



Orochimaru has Sasori's partner and Kabuto his spy, so that's what I mean with knowledge anyways.

Kabuto healed Sakura at the bridge while she couldn't do it herself.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 28, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Orochimaru has Sasori's partner and Kabuto his spy, so that's what I mean with knowledge anyways.



I fail to see how that trumps having the poison itself right in front of you when the issue is....countering the poison.



> Kabuto healed Sakura at the bridge while she couldn't do it herself.



She was kinda debilitated, though...she didn't even perform a Shosen.


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## Hachibi (Sep 28, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> I fail to see how that trumps having the poison itself right in front of you when the issue is....countering the poison.



Well, to prepare in advance in case you encounter the poison.



> She was kinda debilitated, though...she didn't even perform a Shosen.



She was still conscious (albeit, in pain), so I don't really see the problem to do something as simple as a Shosen (at least for her)

Inb4 I get solo'd.


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## Eliyua23 (Sep 28, 2014)

While Sasori is overall stronger by a good deal , Hebi Sasuke being immune to poison makes him a difficult  matchup for Sasori


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## FlamingRain (Sep 28, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Well, to prepare in advance in case you encounter the poison.



So what you mean to say is she didn't have Orochimaru's prep, not that she didn't have his knowledge?



> She was still conscious (albeit, in pain), so I don't really see the problem to do something as simple as a Shosen (at least for her).



Yes a lot of pain. If this right middle panel _(1)_ is anything to go by I'd guess that was the problem. This is where you really need to be saying "Sakura isn't Tsunade". Their pain tolerance isn't comparable.

But why are we even talking about this? Shosen =/= putting together an antidote for Sasori's poisons.


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## Hachibi (Sep 28, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> So what you mean to say is she didn't have Orochimaru's prep, not that she didn't have his knowledge?



Basically yes, but having knowledge is very advantage, tho I give her the credit she deserve.



> Yes a lot of pain. If this right middle panel _(1)_ is anything to go by I'd guess that was the problem. This is where you really need to be saying "Sakura isn't Tsunade". Their pain tolerance isn't comparable.
> 
> But why are we even talking about this? Shosen =/= putting together an antidote for Sasori's poisons.



We were talking about this since we both (well I begin it) compared Kabuto and Sakura in medical jutsu.


*Spoiler*: __ 



The Solo is coming.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 28, 2014)

Luna Lovegood said:


> Sasori's previous victims. And he can also depend on Orochimaru's prior knowledge about his former partner. Sasori was surprised that she was able to make an antidote because he never expected that there's someone skilled enough to learn and combat the complexity of his poison. Not the the difficulty of its acquisition.


(1)
"Could she use that poison from then to... No No chance.

(1)

"even I who made the poison would need a detailed recipe"

And the Suna nins said it was a new poison

(1)


Chiyo straight up said the only person with more knowledge of poisons than herself is Tsunade
(1)
And unless you can prove that Kabuto really wasn't able to obtain any specimen from the time he fled Konoha (when he stopped being the village's spy) to the beginning of part two, then your basis is false. 





> .... I can twist words too. The absence of evidence is not an evidence of absence. One can only assume that he must have. Otherwise, he and Orochimaru wouldn't have been so confident to face and defeat Sasori during their planned rendezvous.


Doesn't mean they had an antidote to make them immune for a maximum of 3 minutes.

Unless you prove that Orochimaru's is more potent than Sasori's or he has built up an immunity(which no one has ever done against Sasori's poison) then its baseless. But seeing as Orochimaru's need a lot more poison to affect Sasuke then Sasori's does agaisnt any opponent, so off of that I base my claim that Sasori's is more potent.


So you base your premise off of: Kabuto was tracking Sasori's movements and trying to find sample of the poison to make an antibody(yet nowhere in the manga does it suggest he has the time to do that, it would have to be before the manga) and that his knowledge of poisons is on the level of Tsunade. And used that to make an immunity to the poison, which Sakura(who was taught by Tsunade) could only make a 3minute antidote.

And I base my premise of of: Sasori's is more potent, doesn't have to leave a large amount of poison behind in a target and to make an antidote without a recipe would be difficult for even Sasori, the one who "created" the poison used against Kankurou, Chiyo, and Sakura.

Not to mention Orochimaru was in no way worried about using Kabuto's poison knowledge, he only valued his ability to preserve specimens to develop a jutsu
(1)

So I highly doubt that Orochimaru would allow Kabuto to run amuck chasing Sasori down in hopes the he acquires a portion of the poison since Orochimaru's main goal was developing his jutsu and needed Kabuto by his side to keep the specimens alive.


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## Nikushimi (Sep 28, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Sasuke was holding back not to kill him. He needed info about Itachi's whereabouts. Otherwise, Kirin could have fried Deidara.



Kirin is Sasuke's trump card and it's not something he can just use at a whim; the fight would have--in all likelihood--still been just as close, even if Sasuke were willing to resort to that Jutsu from the start. He still has to somehow heat the atmosphere without the aid of Itachi's Amaterasu and then wait for the atmospheric conditions to generate a thunderstorm. And in the meantime, Deidara's not just sitting idle; he's got the whole field mined, while dropping guided explosives from above.


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## Thunder (Sep 28, 2014)

There's no hard proof but I wouldn't discount the possibility Hebi Sasuke is immune to Sasori's poison. After all, Orochimaru did work closely with Sasori in the past and thus he would've had plenty of opportunities to collect a sample of the poison for analysis. Akatsuki was a thorn in Orochimaru's side and he wanted them out of his way. Deriving counters to Akatsuki is something Orochimaru would've pursued. 

With Kabuto and Orochimaru working together it's conceivable they could produce an antidote to Sasori's poison.


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## Rocky (Sep 28, 2014)

I don't even think poison is Sasuke's biggest concern.

It's that hundred-puppet gangbang.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 28, 2014)

I seriously doubt Sasori would make it anywhere near that far.


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## Ghost (Sep 28, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I don't even think poison is Sasuke's biggest concern.
> 
> It's that hundred-puppet gangbang.



Chidori Eisou and Katon: Goryuuka do wonders in that cave due to the limited space.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 28, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Chidori Eisou and Katon: Goryuuka do wonders in that cave due to the limited space.



Exacly. Sasori's portrayal wasn't that good tbh. He was beaten by two girls, one of them which was very old and a chuunin kunoichi.

Then he comes in the war and gets fodderized and blitzed by Sai.

If Sai could blitz him, Sasuke can too. And even Sasuke's Goryuuka can do wonders againts him since he is made of wood, and do to his slow movement speed.

All Sasuke needs is to shoot Goryuuka, and if Sasori jumps to avoid it (if he can), Chidori eisou will finish him.

Thats without counting CS or Kirin.


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## Rocky (Sep 28, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Chidori Eisou and Katon: Goryuuka do wonders in that cave due to the limited space.



I have almost no recollection of Sasori's fight with Sakura, but I'm just assuming that 100 things with blades charging Sasuke at once isn't going to be halted by a 5m Chidori Spear or fire dragon.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 28, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I have almost no recollection of Sasori's fight with Sakura, but I'm just assuming that 100 things with blades charging Sasuke at once isn't going to be halted by a 5m Chidori Spear or fire dragon.



Except Sasori only uses his puppet army at the very end of a fight, like he did againts Sakura and Chiyo, or not at all, like when he was owned in the war.

Sasuke is far more likely to begin with the chidori eisou blitz or katon + something else combo, but even the Katon could suffice.

If Sasori gets to that point in the fight, Sasuke will have already prepped Kirin by then and thats a dead Sasori.

And Sasori is lucky summons are banned here for Sasuke.


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 28, 2014)

How will Sasuke prep Kirin? They are inside a cave and Sasuke's never been shown to prep Kirin by himself. He need an entire forest engulfed in Amaterasu to setup the correct parameters.

Sasori won't get caught by Chidori Eisou and Katons are slow as fuck.

I don't see how Sasuke gets pass Iron sand honestly.


----------



## StickaStick (Sep 28, 2014)

Was thinking about it and I realized I could have made an even better point in stating that Sasuke could have used Chidori Eisou on Itachi after Itachi was feeling the after-effects of an MS usage and AFTER he had a shuriken blade put into his leg but opted to use a slow-ass Katon instead. Again, either Sasuke is a dumbass or he felt he was better off baiting Itachi into jumping up away from the Katon then trying to piece him with a Chidori Eisou even given Itachi's condition at the moment. 

@KyuubiYondaime: As far as your point about Chiyo, all that say's is that she was so well attuned to Sasori's style of fighting that she could almost pre-empt his movements. Kishi wasn't trying to show that Sasori somehow lacked spontaneity, quickness, or anything like that.


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## brolmes (Sep 28, 2014)

lol iron sand

even young pre-skip sasuke had nothing to fear from sand users

lol 100 puppets controlled by 1 person

he fodderized 1000 ninjas at the start of part 2

anyone thinking sasuke's going to get killed by somebody sakura beat is out their mind



Knight of Chaos said:


> But also Sasukes can break Hiruko with ease by using Chidori and with full knowledge Sasuke will know to pierce his heart piece with the chidori chakra sword



even without full knowledge he still has the sharingan

he'll see the heart as well as everything else

lol sasori

oh dear


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## FlamingRain (Sep 28, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> We were talking about this since we both (well I begin it) compared Kabuto and Sakura in medical jutsu.



No, I'm pretty sure we were comparing them in _medicine_ before it suddenly shifted to the Shosen medical Ninjutsu, which has no relevance to the issue of the antidote's concoction.

Hence the question.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 28, 2014)

brolmes said:


> lol iron sand
> 
> even young pre-skip sasuke had nothing to fear from sand users


That wasn't metal and made of iron. Also Gaara hasn't shown the proficiency of shaping and forming such as Sasori has shown with the third Kazekage.





> lol 100 puppets controlled by 1 person


Im not sure what you mean by this, do you think its ridiculous for 1 person to control 100 puppets because it is canon.


> he fodderized 1000 ninjas at the start of part 2


And Sasori has destroyed a country. And of course Sasuke killed fodder.


> anyone thinking sasuke's going to get killed by somebody sakura beat is out their mind


Sakura didn't beat Sasori and wouldn't have alone. It was Chiyo that stopped his movements, Sakura was just support.





> even without full knowledge he still has the sharingan
> 
> he'll see the heart as well as everything else
> 
> ...



And. You think Sasori will just leave the only vulnerable part of his body undefended.

Oh but I forgot Sharingan gives a magical ability that allows the wielder to dodge every single attack no matter the mechanics and the wielder's attack always hit their target


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## brolmes (Sep 28, 2014)

faaaascinating


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 28, 2014)

Sasuke should take this since he got a answer for every stage sasori goes through.

Hiruko gets speedblitzed and torn open with chidori

Third kazekage gets sliced apart by chidori sharp spear before sasuke gets tagged with that clumsy iron sand

Sasori himself get his heart sniped sharingan hax sight and sasuke better speed assures it. Sasuke could destroy hundreds of sound scrubs without a scratch the same thing would happen here more or less

Hebi sasuke is above sasori it just a matter of going through the motions to beat him(somewhat like he did with deidara).


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 28, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> How will Sasuke prep Kirin? They are inside a cave and Sasuke's never been shown to prep Kirin by himself. He need an entire forest engulfed in Amaterasu to setup the correct parameters.
> 
> Stop going againts the manga.
> 
> ...


So Sasori can't get caught by Chidori eisou, but Sasuke who is much much faster, has a better shushin and has Curse seal to augment his speed, as well as sharingan precog gets caught in Iron sand? 

And Sasori is lucky that summons are banned here.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 28, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> So Sasori can't get caught by Chidori eisou, but Sasuke who is much much faster, has a better shushin and has Curse seal to augment his speed, as well as sharingan precog gets caught in Iron sand?
> 
> And Sasori is lucky that summons are banned here.



Yes because of Iron sand immense AoE. I think you are getting Iron sand and Gaara's sand confused.

Link removed

Link removed

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And you can't block it, you must dodge it.
Link removed

also you seem to disregard puppet traps aswell

Link removed

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As well as this lil tidbit
Link removed


nice speed feat from Sasori
Link removed

you can see him to the right of the spire, so he moved somewhat of a distance to evade.


Summons would be easily disposed of by Iron Sand's large AoE attacks. And don't say the snakes are immune to it, because snake are vulnerable to their own venom as well as others.

I would say Sasuke is faster than Sasori, but not so fast that Sasori is hapless against it. Sasori does have a 4.5 in speed in the databook and that does mean something albeit not much.

Sasuke would also have to reach Sasori, which is difficult to do. Sasuke only hope is Chidori Eisou against Hiruko and hopes he gets the heart of Sasori, while possible is highly unlikely.


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## brolmes (Sep 28, 2014)

today i learned sakura and chiyo have better reactions and speed than sasuke and they can avoid shit that he couldn't even dream of with his pitiful lee+ tier movement amplified by cs2 and sharingan

nfbattledomeisahelluvadrug


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## Cord (Sep 29, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> _placed_
> "Could she use that poison from then to... No No chance.
> 
> _placed_
> ...



I don't see how these statements are relevant. He left Kankuro struggling in the middle of the desert days ago and probably didn't expect that anyone has the ability to extract _raw_ poison out of a victim's body.



> And the Suna nins said it was a new poison
> 
> _placed_



It was new *to them*....Because that was the first time Sasori came back to Suna for a long time hence their first exposure to his poison.



> Chiyo straight up said the only person with more knowledge of poisons than herself is Tsunade
> _placed_



Because she doesn't know about Kabuto...Or Orochimaru. Granted that they aren't as knowledgeable or skilled as Tsunade when it comes to medical ninjutsu, the idea that they are knowledgeable and skilled _enough_ to study and combat complex poisons, shouldn't be rejected entirely.



> Doesn't mean they had an antidote to make them immune for a maximum of 3 minutes.
> 
> Unless you prove that Orochimaru's is more potent than Sasori's or he has built up an immunity(which no one has ever done against Sasori's poison) then its baseless. But seeing as Orochimaru's need a lot more poison to affect Sasuke then Sasori's does agaisnt any opponent, so off of that I base my claim that Sasori's is more potent.



I never said otherwise though. I think we're in agreement that Sasori has the most lethal poison in the entire Narutoverse.



> So you base your premise off of: Kabuto was tracking Sasori's movements and trying to find sample of the poison to make an antibody*(yet nowhere in the manga does it suggest he has the time to do that, it would have to be before the manga) *and that his knowledge of poisons is on the level of Tsunade. And used that to make an immunity to the poison, which Sakura(who was taught by Tsunade) could only make a 3minute antidote.



Where was it implied that he never had time to acquire some? Where and what do you suppose he was doing the entire time Naruto and Sasuke were training in the middle of the time skips?



> And I base my premise of of: Sasori's is more potent, doesn't have to leave a large amount of poison behind in a target and to make an antidote without a recipe would be difficult for even Sasori, the one who "created" the poison used against Kankurou, Chiyo, and Sakura.



Well, there were traces of poison left in Kankuro's body enough to study. It doesn't have to be many. Indeed, it was difficult for Sasori himself to create an antidote, but Sakura was able to do it. 



> Not to mention Orochimaru was in no way worried about using Kabuto's poison knowledge, he only valued his ability to preserve specimens to develop a jutsu
> _placed_
> 
> So I highly doubt that Orochimaru would allow Kabuto to run amuck chasing Sasori down in hopes the he acquires a portion of the poison since Orochimaru's main goal was developing his jutsu and needed Kabuto by his side to keep the specimens alive.



Yeah sure, but nowhere was it implied that he needed Kabuto by his side every second of every day. Take a hint, Kabuto is very valuable for Orochimaru because of his medical prowess. The reason why he is confident that he can take on Sasori and kill him, despite knowing his former partner's formidable ability in poison making and despite being aware that a scratch from his would give him serious problems, is because he has Kabuto by his side. 

I admit that I don't have a solid proof that Sasuke is indeed immune to Sasori's poison. My argument is merely based on the implications that the manga has shown us. And whenever I post on a Sasori vs Hebi Sasuke match, I argue with the assumption that Sasuke is not immune to it anyway. I think this argument is moot. Whether or not Sasuke is truly immune to Sasori's poison doesn't matter much since he has variety of jutsus to utilize to circumvent the damage he can acquire from being poisoned anyway: Orochi Kawarimi and Juin.


----------



## ARGUS (Sep 29, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> The wings are more durable, I don't think we ever seen his skin increase to such a level. Also CS2 slows him down. TO evade for a time yes, but eventually his speed will run out.Gliding not flight, and leaves him open to Iron sand.


yes, and sasuke has more than enough reflexes to prevent himself through his wings therefore preventing himself from sasoris poison inflicting attacks,, 
IS is evaded through CS2 flight quite easily, 



> Hiruko isn't defenseless, it has plenty of traps equipped.The poison will paralyze the hydra which is infused with the Iron sand. And Iron sand has a massive AoE of which Sasori can alter the form and shape at will. Also the thrid Kazekage is a puppet with traps and many attacks. YOu forgot about Iron Sand: Drizzle Then you also have Iron Sand: World model Hydra can match the puppets until one lands a blow and paralyzes it.


Yes Hiruko is defenseless especially when sasuke has more than enough speed, to evade all of its attacks, and then land a chidori which will eviscerate the puppet, and can possibly get rid of sasori there as well, 

Yeah, good luck to Poison even scratching the hydra, the snakes can just regenerate, and their skin is more than durable enough to prevent themselves, 

the only IS attack that has a decent AOE is Iron Forest, however that leaves the third kazekage wide open therefore allowing sasuke to wreck it by a chidori variant, 

Third Kazekage having traps is still not sufficient, especially when Sasuke has all of the counters, seeing how his wings can prevent himself from poison being inflicted, and if Iron Forest is used, then the puppet gets wrecked, and any other attack from the kazekage, gets evaded through CS2 flight, not to mention that sasuke has more than enough speed to do so, especially when sakura and chiyo managed to do that, to every attack bar Iron Forest, (which just gets evaded by flight) 



> And no Sasuke can't fight 100 puppets with nintaijutsu, kenjutsu, or ninjutsu. The only way Sasuke can legitimately fight against the 100 puppets is summons...well hell even those won't help they'll get paralyzed as well.


Lmao, hydra can wreck over 10 puppets with just one shot, the puppets have terrible durability, and seeing how sasuke managed to take down 1000 men, without breaking a sweat, he has more than enough capability to take out 100 puppets, especially when he has the speed  to evade alll their attacks and has hydra to eradicate multiple puppets at a time, 

and Lmao at summons such as manda being inflicted, 
when the summon was durable enough to still stay alive after C0, 
sasoris puppets are not even putting a slight dent on the snake,



> Also you seem to not include that all puppets are designed with traps that activate quickly and that the more that get taken out the better the other ones get.


and what puppetsa are those?? 
becuase they get wrecked the moment they come out


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 29, 2014)

Sasuke wins. He is decisively stronger. Yes,  there is a chance that he gets scratched and dies in the process, but I find it less likely than him simply overpowering Sasori.

Orochimaru thought he could take on Sasori. He thought he couldn't take Itachi. After absorbing Oro, Sasuke was confident that he could take on Itachi. It is kind of an ABC logic, but there is some truth in it. Hebi Sasuke was portrayed stronger than both Deidara and Sasori(who are around the same level).


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## Bkprince33 (Sep 29, 2014)

Sasuke wins with high difficulty

It's very likely that orochimaru, has created a immunity to sasoris poison, when we consider the fact that, he was his old partner, and kabuto was his spy.

even without poison immunity, sasuke should be able to dodge the poison with sharingon precognition, and his juin speed.


poison gas can be avoided by flight and sasuke cs2 wings are durable.


sasuke will have trouble with the 100 puppets tho, but he is no slouch and argus already pointed out him beating 1000 shinobi, after lighting a couple of the puppets on fire kirin should come into play and he will use it to down sasori


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## Dominus (Sep 29, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> How will Sasuke prep Kirin? They are inside a cave and Sasuke's never been shown to prep Kirin by himself.



He can use it if the cave collapses from Sasori's Iron Sand like it did in his fight against Chiyo and Sakura. Amaterasu made Kirin stronger, that doesn't mean Sasuke can't use it by himself and in the databook it's stated that all he needs to prepare the jutsu is a fire technique like the Great Fire Dragon. He also presumably wanted to use Kirin against Team 7 when he first encountered them in Part II.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 29, 2014)

@Brolmes- Chiyo has shown excellent reaction feats in that battle and was controlling Sakura for a good portion of the fight.



Luna Lovegood said:


> I don't see how these statements are relevant. He left Kankuro struggling in the middle of the desert days ago and probably didn't expect that anyone has the ability to extract _raw_ poison out of a victim's body.


He just realizes that it would be near impossible for someone to create an antidote.





> It was new *to them*....Because that was the first time Sasori came back to Suna for a long time hence their first exposure to his poison.


Yes I thought that might be a logical conclusion aswell.





> Because she doesn't know about Kabuto...Or Orochimaru. Granted that they aren't as knowledgeable or skilled as Tsunade when it comes to medical ninjutsu, the idea that they are knowledgeable and skilled _enough_ to study and combat complex poisons, shouldn't be rejected entirely.


Not entirely no, but even Sakura with the knowledge Tsunade taught her could only make an antidote for 3 minutes, I don't see how Kabuto can build up an immunity to it for Orochimaru and Sasuke, He would need large amounts of the poison and inject very very tiny amounts into them on a regular basis over a period of time.





> I never said otherwise though. I think we're in agreement that Sasori has the most lethal poison in the entire Narutoverse.


I think I was probably addressing someone else or throwing it their way per-say. Its hard replying to 3-4people at the same time.





> Where was it implied that he never had time to acquire some? Where and what do you suppose he was doing the entire time Naruto and Sasuke were training in the middle of the time skips?


Keeping vessels and test subjects around for Orochimaru, also wasn't Orochimaru's arm's sealed and Kabuto stayed by his side for most of the time(im not going to say all the time). I just think its highly unlikely that he acquired so much poison as to build up an immunity for all 3 of them, and despite Sasuke having such an immunity to poisons as stated really hasn't translated that well in fights, he's never(to my knowledge) shown to have immunity to poisons, just stated.





> Well, there were traces of poison left in Kankuro's body enough to study. It doesn't have to be many. Indeed, it was difficult for Sasori himself to create an antidote, but Sakura was able to do it.


Yes Sakura with the knowledge of Tsunade. DOn't get me wrong, Kabuto is a hell of a medical ninja, but a doctor with 40 years is going to know a hell of alot more than a doctor fresh out of college. And even then the best Sakura could do was make an antidote for 3 minutes, not full immunity which would take ingesting very very small amounts on a regular consistent basis.





> Yeah sure, but nowhere was it implied that he needed Kabuto by his side every second of every day. Take a hint, Kabuto is very valuable for Orochimaru because of his medical prowess. The reason why he is confident that he can take on Sasori and kill him, despite knowing his former partner's formidable ability in poison making and despite being aware that a scratch from his would give him serious problems, is because he has Kabuto by his side.


Orochimaru was also one of the very few that saw Sasoris' real face. Kabuto is valuable no doubt, but mostly because he was able to keep test subjects alive to where they can run test on them multiple times instead of one. Kabuto did roam freely, but not that much. I just don't see him leaving Orochimaru for atleast a half a month-month to track Sasori down, follow him, wait for him to battle, then extract poison from the victim.


> I admit that I don't have a solid proof that Sasuke is indeed immune to Sasori's poison. My argument is merely based on the implications that the manga has shown us. And whenever I post on a Sasori vs Hebi Sasuke match, I argue with the assumption that Sasuke is not immune to it anyway. I think this argument is moot. Whether or not Sasuke is truly immune to Sasori's poison doesn't matter much since he has variety of jutsus to utilize to circumvent the damage he can acquire from being poisoned anyway: Orochi Kawarimi and Juin.


I don't believe Juin would help as it paralyzes the body. Orochi Kawarimi would be effective in countering in it.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 29, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> yes, and sasuke has more than enough reflexes to prevent himself through his wings therefore preventing himself from sasoris poison inflicting attacks,,
> IS is evaded through CS2 flight quite easily,


You do know that IS is controlled by Sasori and he change its form, shape, and trajectory on a whim. CS2 doesn't give FLIGHT. Also it makes him slower canonically.





> Yes Hiruko is defenseless especially when sasuke has more than enough speed, to evade all of its attacks, and then land a chidori which will eviscerate the puppet, and can possibly get rid of sasori there as well,


Yet Sasori knows that Sasuke has raiton which could be dangerous. You are also discrediting Hiruko's traps.





> Yeah, good luck to Poison even scratching the hydra, the snakes can just regenerate, and their skin is more than durable enough to prevent themselves,


Regenerate from physical damage. Where was it implied that it has amazing durability, no where have I ever seen that stated.





> the only IS attack that has a decent AOE is Iron Forest, however that leaves the third kazekage wide open therefore allowing sasuke to wreck it by a chidori variant,


 Actually it doesn't leave the kazekage open as shown against Sakura when he made sure that there was branches inbetween the space.





> Third Kazekage having traps is still not sufficient, especially when Sasuke has all of the counters, seeing how his wings can prevent himself from poison being inflicted, and if Iron Forest is used, then the puppet gets wrecked, and any other attack from the kazekage, gets evaded through CS2 flight, not to mention that sasuke has more than enough speed to do so, especially when sakura and chiyo managed to do that, to every attack bar Iron Forest, (which just gets evaded by flight)


wow. Are you fucking serious? Wings don't envelop his entire body. CS2 DOESN'T GIVE FLIGHT. Chiyo is a highly experienced ninja. I have said this before, just because someone has sharingan doesn't automatically give them better reflexes than someone without sharingan and this holds true with the more experience someone has in battle such as Chiyo does. Fucking Sakura was flipping cart wheels and all kinds of shit, if it wasn't for plot she would be dead.





> Lmao, hydra can wreck over 10 puppets with just one shot, the puppets have terrible durability, and seeing how sasuke managed to take down 1000 men, without breaking a sweat, he has more than enough capability to take out 100 puppets, especially when he has the speed  to evade alll their attacks and has hydra to eradicate multiple puppets at a time,


1000men =/= Country. Third Kazekage isn't getting downed





> and Lmao at summons such as manda being inflicted,
> when the summon was durable enough to still stay alive after C0,
> sasoris puppets are not even putting a slight dent on the snake,


 Explosive force and cutting force are two different mechanics.





> and what puppetsa are those??
> becuase they get wrecked the moment they come out


All puppets ever shown have traps implemented in them, Sasori has also built most of the puppets used by Suna nins.

I have one or two more post to post and I will be done, Im tired of this shit.


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 29, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> He can use it if the cave collapses from Sasori's Iron Sand like it did in his fight against Chiyo and Sakura. Amaterasu made Kirin stronger, that doesn't mean Sasuke can't use it by himself and in the databook it's stated that all he needs to prepare the jutsu is a fire technique like the Great Fire Dragon. He also presumably wanted to use Kirin against Team 7 when he first encountered them in Part II.



BUt the only time we have ever seen the thunderstorm form was when it was aided with an ENTIRE FOREST ENGULFED IN AMATERASU WHICH IS SAID TO BE AS HOT AS THE SURFACE OF THE SUN.

Wanting to and being able to are two different things.




			
				GrimmJow said:
			
		

> i 	Sasuke wins. He is decisively stronger. Yes, there is a chance that he gets scratched and dies in the process, but I find it less likely than him simply overpowering Sasori.


 Yes because somehow Sasuke flawlessly avoid all attacks despite their large AoE and power and flawlessly attacks with flawless precision.


And thats why Im fucking done with this argument. you people are so fucking biased.

I love how Uchihas are just fucking flawless in your eyes despite them being hit multiple times in multiple fights against different opponents.


I ahve done pointed out that he isn't evading every unpredictable attack(traps, Iron Sand) that Sasori has in his arsenal. Yet you people revert to using CS2 to evade attacks, despite it making Sasuke slower. I have done proven that an immunity to Sasori's poison is highly unlikely.


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## Ghost (Sep 29, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Yes because somehow Sasuke flawlessly avoid all attacks despite their large AoE and power and flawlessly attacks with flawless precision.


Sasuke is massively faster than the puppets and has Sharingan and CS on top of that.





> I ahve done pointed out that he isn't evading every unpredictable attack(traps, Iron Sand) that Sasori has in his arsenal.


You act like Sasori doesn't need to dodge anything and is able to be on offensive the whole time.


> Yet you people revert to using CS2 to evade attacks, despite it making Sasuke slower.


Feel free to give me a panel from the manga that says Sasuke's CS2 slows him down.


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## Dominus (Sep 29, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> BUt the only time we have ever seen the thunderstorm form was when it was aided with an ENTIRE FOREST ENGULFED IN AMATERASU WHICH IS SAID TO BE AS HOT AS THE SURFACE OF THE SUN.
> 
> Wanting to and being able to are two different things.



In the  of the jutsu there is no mention of Amaterasu or any other jutsu Sasuke doesn't have, it just says that he needs a jutsu like the Great Fire Dragon to create a thunderstorm. Sasori using his flamethrower could possibly help a little as well.


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## DavyChan (Sep 29, 2014)

Well considering Deidara>>> Sasori and Sakura & Chiyo beat Sasori (regardless of whtever dum reasons u want to account for why tht happened) then Hebi Sasuke should be able to comfortably mid diff Sasori.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 29, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Sasuke is massively faster than the puppets and has Sharingan and CS on top of that.


CS SLOWS HIM DOWN. Sharigan only gives enhanced perception, not foresight. Massivley faster? Prove it. And its not about being faster, its about being able to evade every single attack especially given their AoE, and versatility.


Link removed





> You act like Sasori doesn't need to dodge anything and is able to be on offensive the whole time.
> 
> Feel free to give me a panel from the manga that says Sasuke's CS2 slows him down.


No Sasori does have to dodge some attacks like Raiton abilities, but other than nothing Sasuke has is really hurting him. 

First of all you act as if Sasuke can use CS2 indefinitely which isn't the case.
Link removed

I can't find the scan, but its shown in the Kimi fight when he releases his. But doesn't matter. Sasuke can't keep his speed up for that long, CS uses a lot of chakra and degrades the body.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 29, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> In the  of the jutsu there is no mention of Amaterasu or any other jutsu Sasuke doesn't have, it just says that he needs a jutsu like the Great Fire Dragon to create a thunderstorm. Sasori using his flamethrower could possibly help a little as well.



And the only time it was used was when an entire forest was engulfed by flames hyped to be as hot as the sun's surface. Regardless of what the databook says, what was needed in a reasonable time span is an entire forest engulfed by Amaterasu.


If you go out and start a forest fire, doesn't make it rain.


@DpWater- Deidara stated that Sasori was the stronger of the two.


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## Ghost (Sep 29, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Massivley faster? Prove it.


Sasuke casually blitzed Sakura which Sasori's puppets weren't able to do from what I remember.


> And its not about being faster, its about being able to evade every single attack especially given their AoE, and versatility.


Being faster helps with dodging.



> First of all you act as if Sasuke can use CS2 indefinitely which isn't the case.
> this time


Are you really comparing part 1 Sasuke using the CS2 for the first to part 2 Kage level Sasuke?


> I can't find the scan, but its shown in the Kimi fight when he releases his. But doesn't matter. Sasuke can't keep his speed up for that long, CS uses a lot of chakra and degrades the body.


Sasuke isn't Kimimaro. Nowhere was stated that CS2 slows Sasuke down.


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## Dominus (Sep 29, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> And the only time it was used was when an entire forest was engulfed by flames hyped to be as hot as the sun's surface. Regardless of what the databook says, what was needed in a reasonable time span is an entire forest engulfed by Amaterasu.
> 
> If you go out and start a forest fire, doesn't make it rain.



You have literally no proof that he can't use it without Amaterasu, it's just basically you saying that he needs it and having no proof while I can give you proof that he doesn't need it from both the databook's description of not only Kirin but the Great Fire Dragon as well and from the manga because he likely wanted to use it against Team 7 and because Zetsu said that Sasuke used his own fire technique to create the thunderstorm and later added that Amaterasu only made his jutsu stronger, not that he couldn't use Kirin without it.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 29, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Yes because of Iron sand immense AoE. I think you are getting Iron sand and Gaara's sand confused.
> 
> this time
> 
> ...


So Sasori dodging Sakura is equivalent to dodging Sasuke?

Comeon dude. You can come up with something better than that. Sakura is slow for her level, which was Chuunin level at the time. Dodging a Chuunin's linear attack like that is not impressive. Sakura was NEVER pointed out to be fast or anything. Sasuke has always being praised for his speed. And he has CS as well.

Sai, on the otherhand, blitzed the shit out of Sasori.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 29, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Sasuke casually blitzed Sakura which Sasori's puppets weren't able to do from what I remember.
> 
> Being faster helps with dodging.


And Sakura was being used as a puppet for most of the time. And When Sakura faces Sasuke she freezes. When is another time we have ever seen Sakura perform such evasive maneuvers so casually.





> Are you really comparing part 1 Sasuke using the CS2 for the first to part 2 Kage level Sasuke?


Kage level. FUCKING LO GODDAMN L. And his CS didn't change. He didn't get a new one, the mechanics are set.





> Sasuke isn't Kimimaro. Nowhere was stated that CS2 slows Sasuke down.


Nowhere is it stated that CS2 gave any CS user a speed boost. 



			
				Authoritai said:
			
		

> You have literally no proof that he can't use it without Amaterasu, it's just basically you saying that he needs it and having no proof while I can give you proof that he doesn't need it from both the databook's description of not only Kirin but the Great Fire Dragon as well and from the manga because he likely wanted to use it against Team 7 and because Zetsu said that Sasuke used his own fire technique to create the thunderstorm and later added that Amaterasu only made his jutsu stronger, not that he couldn't use Kirin without it.


And Sasuke has never used Kirin with a forest being engulfed by amaterasu.  And the databook is ripe with fallacies, its fanfic in my eyes. I use CANON. Oh so it wouldn't have been no where near that strong then since Amaterasu was generating most of the heat required.

So either Kirin's destructive capacity is greatly reduced or he can' tdo it by himself as he has never shown to do.

Fact is that the only time he ever used kirin was when an entire forest was engulfed with Amaterasu. Refute that and you might have a basis for an argument. But as it stands imo he can't use it without a significant source of intense heat.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 29, 2014)

Here, Kimmi's was stated to slow him because his body was adapted to cs2. Kimmi said Sasuke was the same as Kimmi.


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## Dominus (Sep 29, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> And Sakura was being used as a puppet for most of the time. And When Sakura faces Sasuke she freezes. When is another time we have ever seen Sakura perform such evasive maneuvers so casually.Kage level. FUCKING LO GODDAMN L. And his CS didn't change. He didn't get a new one, the mechanics are set.
> Nowhere is it stated that CS2 gave any CS user a speed boost.
> 
> And Sasuke has never used Kirin with a forest being engulfed by amaterasu.  And the databook is ripe with fallacies, its fanfic in my eyes. I use CANON. Oh so it wouldn't have been no where near that strong then since Amaterasu was generating most of the heat required.
> ...



And in the manga it's also implied that he can use it without Amaterasu. This is like seeing someone use Suiton with a water source and it says in the databook that he can use that technique without it and then you see that person in the manga waving hand signs to use the same jutsu without being near the waterside then someone stops him. And you say that he can't use it without a water source.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 29, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> And in the manga it's also implied that he can use it without Amaterasu. This is like seeing someone use Suiton with a water source and it says in the databook that he can use that technique without it and then you see that person in the manga waving hand signs to use the same jutsu without being near the waterside then someone stops him. And you say that he can't use it without a water source.



The databook has all kinds of shit like saying amaterasu is as hot as the sun. But anyway, no feats. We have never seen Kirin without amaterasu so you can't use it. Hashirama used his Buddha in SM. Take away SM and do you still say it soloe's susanoo- armor Kurama? No because we don't know what it does or how strong it is without SM.


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## JuicyG (Sep 29, 2014)

Sasuke loses this fight Mid-diff

Without summons I can't possibly see how Sasuke matches all these puppetry attacks that also have hidden strikes that can attack from different angles. Even with 'some' immunity to posion, Sasuke isn't going to simply *tank* the sasori hits. 

People are acting like Sasori is stupid and that Sasuke can even out manuever Sasori. Not happening with Hebi Sasuke. Sasori was stated to be the stronger between Deidara and himself and Sasuke BARELY survived that match against Deidara and that was without any restrictions. 

Sasori is highly analytical and cunning. Sasuke will have to do much more to kill Sasori than the for Sasori to take Sasuke down with a few poisonous shots.


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## Bonly (Sep 29, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> The databook has all kinds of shit like saying amaterasu is as hot as the sun. *But anyway, no feats. We have never seen Kirin without amaterasu so you can't use it.* Hashirama used his Buddha in SM. Take away SM and do you still say it soloe's susanoo- armor Kurama? No because we don't know what it does or how strong it is without SM.



But why can't we use common sense in a situation like this though? We haven't seen any feats from the first Kazekage but you would say Part one Tenten would beat him because she has feats? Of course not because common sense would help you out. If the Databook outright says that Sasuke's Katon:Gouryuuka have such a high temperature, they can create updraughts which in turn give rise to cumulonimbus clouds(which Cumulonimbus clouds are large, dark-grey rain clouds involved in thunderstorms and other intense weather) and we know he made the jutsu to kill Itachi without knowing about Ama(as far as we know I think), then why can't we use common sense to say Sasuke could use Kirin without Ama?


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## Dominus (Sep 29, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> The databook has all kinds of shit like saying amaterasu is as hot as the sun. But anyway, no feats. We have never seen Kirin without amaterasu so you can't use it. Hashirama used his Buddha in SM. Take away SM and do you still say it soloe's susanoo- armor Kurama? No because we don't know what it does or how strong it is without SM.



Use a bit common sense as Bonly suggested. We have only seen Hashirama use his genjutsu when he's an Edo Tensei, I guess he can't use it when he's alive.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 29, 2014)

I'm not saying he can't. I'm you can't. You can't come in and claim Sasuke uses Kirin when we have no idea how powerful it is or what it does. It was powered by Itachi's forest covering Amaterasu and it was even said that amaterasu gave it a power boost. We have no idea about it without amaterasu so you can't use it. Right now it's in the same club as Minato's "insert the long ass name here" jutsu that he said he was going to use for 5 chapters and we never saw it. We know he has it, but what does it do and how strong is it?


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## Kanki (Sep 29, 2014)

I find it difficult to believe that Sasori wouldn't have types of poison that Orochimaru isn't aware of. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sasuke wins. He is decisively stronger. Yes,  there is a chance that he gets scratched and dies in the process, but I find it less likely than him simply overpowering Sasori.
> 
> Orochimaru thought he could take on Sasori. He thought he couldn't take Itachi. After absorbing Oro, Sasuke was confident that he could take on Itachi. It is kind of an ABC logic, but there is some truth in it. Hebi Sasuke was portrayed stronger than both Deidara and Sasori(who are around the same level).



You can't really use this. There's a million examples of characters overestimating themselves. Deidara was extremely close to killing Sasuke, so I don't see how Sasuke is 'decisively stronger' than Sasori.


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## JuicyG (Sep 29, 2014)

Sasori is simply under hyped around here.

Sasuke about lost to Deidara who stated that Sasori was stronger of the two, yet a restricted Sasuke still beats Sasori ? That's just character flaming


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## Dominus (Sep 29, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> I'm not saying he can't. I'm you can't. You can't come in and claim Sasuke uses Kirin when we have no idea how powerful it is or what it does. It was powered by Itachi's forest covering Amaterasu and it was even said that amaterasu gave it a power boost. We have no idea about it without amaterasu so you can't use it. Right now it's in the same club as Minato's "insert the long ass name here" jutsu that he said he was going to use for 5 chapters and we never saw it. We know he has it, but what does it do and how strong is it?



It should be logical that it should do pretty much the same thing, it just shouldn't be as large. My point from the start when you asked how will Sasuke use Kirin wasn't that he will use it and kill Sasori with it, just that he could use it in the way I suggested.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 29, 2014)

Max Thunder said:


> When was this ever even said?



Here. He took advantage of amaterasu.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 29, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> It should be logical that it should do pretty much the same thing, it just shouldn't be as large. My point from the start when you asked how will Sasuke use Kirin wasn't that he will use it and kill Sasori with it, just that he could use it in the way I suggested.



How strong is it? Does it destroy a mountain? Or does it barely destroy a building? We don't know.


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## Dominus (Sep 29, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> How strong is it? Does it destroy a mountain? Or does it barely destroy a building? We don't know.



Where did I say that we do know?


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## IchLiebe (Sep 29, 2014)

So how do we use something we don't know?


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## Dominus (Sep 29, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> So how do we use something we don't know?



You asked how he could prep Kirin, I answered your question.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 29, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Yes because somehow Sasuke flawlessly avoid all attacks despite their large AoE and power and flawlessly attacks with flawless precision.


Sakura & Chiyo did, why not Sasuke ? 



> And thats why Im fucking done with this argument. *you people are so fucking biased*.


Yeah, you make an excellent point considering how non-biased you are towards certain characters :ignoramus


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## Max Thunder (Sep 29, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Here. He took advantage of amaterasu.



Yeah and how does that effect it's power exactly?

Those two things don't actually coincide with each other 'he took advantage of Amaterasu's heat' doesn't mean it made Kirin significantly stronger like you are implying. Sasuke already had knowledge of the damage it made before which implies he has used it before without amaterasu.

Not to mention that in the following panels Sasuke states the power source is the lightning in other words lightning storm conditions implying there's no other source like amaterasu, which you claim, needed for the technique.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 29, 2014)

Max Thunder said:


> Yeah and how does that effect it's power exactly?



Makes it stronger.



> Those two things don't actually coincide with each other 'he took advantage of Amaterasu's heat' doesn't mean it made Kirin significantly stronger like you are implying. Sasuke already had knowledge of the damage it made before which implies he has used it before without amaterasu.



He took advantage of amaterasu's heat...amaterasu covered a fucking forest. I don't it was insignificant.



> Not to mention that in the following panels Sasuke states the power source is the lightning in other words lightning storm conditions implying there's no other source like amaterasu, which you claim, needed for the technique.



The storm is the power. The heat makes the storm.


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## Ghost (Sep 29, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> And Sakura was being used as a puppet for most of the time.


Doesn't affect her reactions. Had the puppets been to fast fro her to react she would've been useless.


> And When Sakura faces Sasuke she freezes.


Doesn't affect her reactions. 


> Kage level. FUCKING LO GODDAMN L.


You don't think Hebi Sasuke is Kage level? The hate and bias is strong in this one.


> And his CS didn't change. He didn't get a new one, the mechanics are set.


Yep, Sasuke's body totally didn't grow stronger and more tolerant to the CS. 


> Nowhere is it stated that CS2 gave any CS user a speed boost.


We've seen how much CS boosts one's stats, why would anyone assume CS2 doesn't do it as well? 





IchLiebe said:


> Here, Kimmi's was stated to slow him because his body was adapted to cs2.
> Kimmi said Sasuke was the same as Kimmi.



Kimimaro's body had not adapted to CS2 that's why he was slower. You really think Sasuke's CS control didn't get any better during the time skip? 

And that second link doesn't back up anything. Kimimaro and Sasuke are different people with different Curse Marks.


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## Max Thunder (Sep 29, 2014)

And how does that mean they cannot be created without the presence of amaterasu?

The issue here is emulating similar *storm conditions* and not having *amaterasu present* like you are implying.


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## JuicyG (Sep 29, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sakura & Chiyo did, why not Sasuke ?




Actually having Chiyo on the opposing side is an HUGE advantage concerning that Chiyo knows so much about Sasori's attacks, and his tactics. Not to mention the 2 v 1 scenario


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## IchLiebe (Sep 29, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Doesn't affect her reactions. Had the puppets been to fast fro her to react she would've been useless.



Chiyo was using her? What does Sakura's reactions have to do here?



> You don't think Hebi Sasuke is Kage level? The hate and bias is strong in this one.



Nope. He's a high jounin.



> Yep, Sasuke's body totally didn't grow stronger and more tolerant to the CS.
> 
> We've seen how much CS boosts one's stats, why would anyone assume CS2 doesn't do it as well?



CS harms the body. CS2 makes Sasuke grow huge ass wings and those somehow boost his speed?




> Kimimaro's body had not adapted to CS2 that's why he was slower. You really think Sasuke's CS control didn't get any better during the time skip?



Kimmi was more suited to CS than anyone as Juugo said. Control doesn't mean shit. CS2 was stated to slow Kimmi down, and Kimmi was stated to have as much control as Sasuke. 



> And that second link doesn't back up anything. Kimimaro and Sasuke are different people with different Curse Marks.



Yet Juugo said Sasuke's curse seal control was as good as Kimmi's. Kimmi's CS2 slowed him down, yet Sasuke's don't? Sound logic you got there.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 29, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Actually having Chiyo on the opposing side is an HUGE advantage concerning that Chiyo knows so much about Sasori's attacks, and his tactics. Not to mention the 2 v 1 scenario



Knowledge is important I agree, but Sasuke's offensive and defensive power are way above Chiyo's. And he has better speed as well. 

Also Sasori's attacks have big AOE, so fighting against 2 opponents who were doing nothing but waiting him to attack wasn't that big of a deal for him. Especially when you consider one of the opponents was chuunin level. Chiyo had to work to save Sakura's ass most of the time.


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## Ghost (Sep 29, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Chiyo was using her? What does Sakura's reactions have to do here?


Sakura was abble to react to Sasori's puppets. She wasn't able to react to Sasuke's speed.


**
Jounins don't go around defeating Kage level opponents and stomping other jounins.




> CS2 makes Sasuke grow huge ass wings and those somehow boost his speed?


Sasuke's physical strength also increases when using CS. Wings shouldn't slow him down. Even if CS2 wouldn't increase his speed, CS1 does and its enough considering Sasuke's impressive base speed.





> Kimmi was more suited to CS than anyone as Juugo said.


Then came along Sasuke.


> Control doesn't mean shit.


Yes it does.


> CS2 was stated to slow Kimmi down, and Kimmi was stated to have as much control as Sasuke.


Juugo said Sasuke was the only who reached Kimimaro's level of mastery over CS after only seeing Sasuke using partial transformation. What again indicates that Sasuke didn't go beyond Kimi? 




> Yet Juugo said Sasuke's curse seal control was as good as Kimmi's. Kimmi's CS2 slowed him down, yet Sasuke's don't?


*At least as good as Kimi's.* Tell me when did Juugo see Sasuke fighting using CS2? Never. As I have said Sasuke's and Kimi's Curse Seals are different. Sasuke has the Heaven one and Kimi has the Earth. Their physical conditions are different also.



> Sound logic you got there.


How ironic.


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## JuicyG (Sep 29, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Knowledge is important I agree, but Sasuke's offensive and defensive power are way above Chiyo's. And he has better speed as well.
> 
> Also Sasori's attacks have big AOE, so fighting against 2 opponents who were doing nothing but waiting him to attack wasn't that big of a deal for him. Especially when you consider one of the opponents was chuunin level. Chiyo had to work to save Sakura's ass most of the time.




Still talking about a restricted Hebi Sasuke who almost lost to Deidara (unrestricted in that fight) and Deidara claimed Sasori was stronger of the two. So go figure


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## IchLiebe (Sep 29, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Sakura was abble to react to Sasori's puppets. She wasn't able to react to Sasuke's speed.



It took her a while to be able to react on her own. She's was a chunnin against Sasori. WIthout Chiyo and having antidotes she would've died quick.



> **
> Jounins don't go around defeating Kage level opponents and stomping other jounins.



What jounin did he stomp? As soon as Yamato said he was going to get serious the fight ended. And a jounin can beat a Kage if they have all the advantages Sasuke did. Sasuke was the perfect counter to Deidara. He said he wouldn't have won if Orochimaru wasn't on his deathbed.



> Sasuke's physical strength also increases when using CS. Wings shouldn't slow him down. Even if CS2 wouldn't increase his speed, CS1 does and its enough considering Sasuke's impressive base speed.



Sasuke has a 4.5 in speed. Sasori has 4.5 in speed. Sasuke has to fight 100 puppets. Sasori only has to fight Sasuke.



> Then came along Sasuke.



Who was never said to be better.



> Yes it does.



No it doesn't. Control means you can use it better. Nothing indicates it takes away drawbacks. 



> Juugo said Sasuke was the only who reached Kimimaro's level of mastery over CS after only seeing Sasuke using partial transformation. What again indicates that Sasuke didn't go beyond Kimi?



What indicates he did? Right now, Juugo said Sasuke was as good as Kimmi. Not better, not worse.



> *At least as good as Kimi's.* Tell me when did Juugo see Sasuke fighting using CS2? Never. As I have said Sasuke's and Kimi's Curse Seals are different. Sasuke has the Heaven one and Kimi has the Earth. Their physical conditions are different also.



A partial transformation is the peak of curse seal. Nothing is better than that. They work the same. Their description is the same. Not one person showed more speed in cs2 including Sasuke.

Their physical conditions as in Sasuke having huge wings that would slow him down and make him less aerodynamic, or Kimmi havin a tail and making him more aerodynamic. Or Kimmi being almost dead which was not the reason for him slowing down and would be stupid to bring up.


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## brolmes (Sep 29, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> CS SLOWS HIM DOWN. Sharigan only gives enhanced perception, not foresight.



lol @ anybody still arguing with this guy after this post


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## Ghost (Sep 29, 2014)

@IchLiebe

Sasori's 4.5 speed comes from his attack speed. Not movement. Sasuke has to fight 100 puppets that are individually way inferior to him. Inferior incarnation of Sasuke took out an army of around chuunin level ninjas without getting scratched and managed to do it without killing anyone.

You think two and a half years of training didn't make Sasuke's body more adapted to CS?

For the last time; Sasuke and Kimimaro are two entirely different people. Just because Kimimaro gets slower while using CS2 doesn't mean Sasuke does.

I'm done. Your bias is clear to anyone in the section which makes me wonder why I or for that matter anyone even began to debate you.


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## StickaStick (Sep 29, 2014)

Where is it explicitly stated or implied/shown that the CS grants increased speed? The best I've been able to find are references to it "drawing out [the users] real power", which isn't indicative of anything in particular. If Kimmi is in fact the only other viable comparison available and he did become slower after using CS2, then what would one attribute that to other then the use of the Cuse Seal? Honestly, I could see how it would actually _decrease _speed (not just have a neutral effect) if it only granted an increase in strength (muscle) without an accompanying increase in speed. And when the wings come out then you have extra parts on the body that would realistically add drag, again leading to a "decrease" in speed.


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## Bonly (Sep 29, 2014)

The Format said:


> Where is it explicitly stated or implied/shown that the CS grants increased speed? The best I've been able to find are references to it "drawing out [the users] real power", which isn't indicative of anything in particular. If Kimmi is in fact the only other viable comparison available and he did become slower after using CS2, then what would one attribute that to other then the use of the Cuse Seal? Honestly, I could see how it would actually _decrease _speed (not just have a neutral effect) if it only granted an increase in strength (muscle) without an accompanying increase in speed. And when the wings come out then you have extra parts on the body that would realistically add drag, again leading to a "decrease" in speed.



It's not stated anywhere that it increases speed but when Sasuke use the CS he was usually shown faster then he was before hand and since the CS can power up jutsu then Shunshin could also be powered up which is a speed thing.


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## Icegaze (Sep 29, 2014)

Cs allows him to draw out more chakra and makes his moves and kekkei genkai stronger 
It does not and has not been shown to increase speed at all 

However sasuke wins


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## JuicyG (Sep 29, 2014)

Sasuke barely wins to Deidara in an unrestricted fight, yet some how beats Sasori while restricted against someone who Deiara said was stronger than himself.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 29, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Still talking about a restricted Hebi Sasuke who almost lost to Deidara (unrestricted in that fight) and Deidara claimed Sasori was stronger of the two. So go figure



Sasuke didn't almost lose. He won. Without going all out.

And I also think Deidara's comment was misleading. He seemed like he wanted to isolate Naruto, so he probably tried to bait Kakashi into staying and helping Chiyo and Sucks.

Besides, A B C logic doesn't always work. I think Deidara is a bad match up against most grounded opponents, even if Sasori is stronger(going by feats he certainly isn't), he may not fare well against Sasuke.


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## StickaStick (Sep 29, 2014)

Bonly said:


> It's not stated anywhere that it increases speed *but when Sasuke use the CS he was usually shown faster then he was before *hand and since the CS can power up jutsu then Shunshin could also be powered up which is a speed thing.



Such as when? I mean, does he have have any speed feats in CS-mode that surpass or even compare to his almost-blitz of Deidera in base?


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