# Doflamingo and Vergo vs Jozu and Ace



## Extravlad (Apr 18, 2013)

Marineford Plaza full knowledge bloodlusted 100ft


----------



## dredalus (Apr 18, 2013)

dofla/vergo wins with just a bit less than high diff.


jozu with one arm is going to have a hard time defending from dofla's attacks.i'd say ace is above vergo but it dosen't matter because dofla will whoop jozu before ace beats vergo,so it'll be 2v1 against ace,we know the rest.

dofla>jozu>ace>vergo


----------



## Extravlad (Apr 18, 2013)

> jozu with one arm is going to have a hard time


It's pre marineford Jozu.

He has two arms.


----------



## tupadre97 (Apr 18, 2013)

Doflamingo probably soloes.


----------



## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Apr 18, 2013)

Jozu and Donflamingo should be around the same level... Vergo should be weaker than Ace... 
It would be really close...


----------



## RF (Apr 18, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> Doflamingo probably soloes.



HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA 

no


----------



## Urouge (Apr 18, 2013)

lol dofla and vergo loses. ace will take care of vergo faster than dofla will beat jozu. jozu and ace then proceed to beat dofla. they win this with extreme diff


----------



## Lord Melkor (Apr 18, 2013)

I quess that Ace can beat Vergo and help Jozu against Dolfamingo, so they win something like high difficulty.


----------



## Mihawk (Apr 18, 2013)

Team 1 loses because Vergo can't match Ace.

Ace is gonna take down Vergo first, which means that Ace will get to join Jozu and tip the scale a lot to Team 2's favor, as they beat Doflamingo.
Doflamingo> Jozu, but Ace> Vergo.

Because of this, Team 2 wins. 


*I think that a far better and more interesting match would be: 

Doflamingo & Law VS Jozu & Ace, since it's much closer.*


----------



## SsjAzn (Apr 18, 2013)

Jozu can take both Doflamingo and Vergo with room to spare. Ace isn't need here, but if he fought Vergo he would beat him. Jozu with high difficulty by himself.


----------



## Dunno (Apr 19, 2013)

Doflamingo will use Jozu as a chair while he slices Ace up. Team 1 mid-high diff.


----------



## RF (Apr 19, 2013)

Dunno said:


> Doflamingo will use Jozu as a chair while he slices Ace up. Team 1 mid-high diff.



Yeah,because he's perfectly capable of controlling Jozu while he's not off-guard.


----------



## Shinthia (Apr 19, 2013)

Ace and Jozu wins this one


----------



## tanman (Apr 19, 2013)

If we treat this like two separate fights:
Doflamingo takes down Jozu with high difficulty.
Ace takes down Vergo with very high difficulty.
And I think we can all agree on how Doflamingo versus Ace would go.

If we treat this like one fight and consider full knowledge:
Jozu heads straight for Vergo, and Ace pumps out his most powerful attacks to delay Doflamingo. Doflamingo likely gains control over Ace while he's preparing to attack again. Doflamingo and Ace together would likely take the win.

Without full knowledge, Jozu probably gets controlled again.


----------



## LB04 (Apr 19, 2013)

I would say Jozu and Ace win this.

Doflamingo is a bit stronger than Jozu but I think he is still weaker than Marco. Yeah, he could stop Jozu but that's it. He couldn't make Jozu do anything and he could only capture him that easily because Jozu was focused on Croc and didn't notice DD. 
I think DD would beat Jozu with extrem diff. 

Ace vs Vergo, well, I think Ace wins this with high diff. 

Ace can then help Jozu and they likely win this then. Unless of course Ace gets himself killed by DD in ten seconds or something like that.


----------



## Urouge (Apr 19, 2013)

SsjAzn;46971298[B said:
			
		

> ]Jozu can take both Doflamingo and Vergo with room to spare[/B]. Ace isn't need here, but if he fought Vergo he would beat him. Jozu with high difficulty by himself.



hahahahahaha it's like you didnt even read MF.


----------



## A Optimistic (Apr 19, 2013)

Jozu wrecks Dolflamingo.

Ace wrecks Vergo.


----------



## RF (Apr 19, 2013)

Jozu has far better feats than Doflamingo,anything that even remotely implies that Doflamingo can beat him is their little skirmish in the Marineford War,in which Doflamingo was portrayed superior,but he only succeeded because Jozu was caught off-guard. Now the only question is whether you will take that portrayal as an absolute sign of Jozu's inferiority to Doflamigno or not. I will choose not to,and therefore, Jozu wins.

Ace beats Vergo.


----------



## Mys??lf (Apr 19, 2013)

what stops Doflamingo from taking control of both  from the get go ?
If Jozus CoA is insufficient to prevent being controlled by Doflamingos strings , then logically Ace , whos COA is probably inferior to Jozus , cant prevent it either ...
or am i wrong here ?


----------



## RF (Apr 19, 2013)

MeMyselfandI said:


> what stops Doflamingo from taking control of both  from the get go



Jozu punching him in the face


----------



## Unclear Justice (Apr 19, 2013)

MeMyselfandI said:


> *what stops Doflamingo from taking control of both  from the get go ?*If Jozus CoA is insufficient to prevent being controlled by Doflamingos strings , then logically Ace , whos COA is probably inferior to Jozus , cant prevent it either ...
> or am i wrong here ?



The problem is that we don?t know how big of a factor is that DD caught Jozu off-guard when he controlled him in MF. This kind of hax is not easy to gauge.

My viewpoint: Doflamingo?s controlling-technique is a hax-ability that is initialized at some point and than DD can keep it active as long as he wants to. Imo after you are caught there is nothing you can do to escape, if Doflamingo doesn?t let you. But in the moment he tries to initialize it you can protect yourself with CoA. I think that is the case because it also applies to other hax, for example Law?s slashes: You can protect yourself when Law wants to cut you, but after you have been cut you can?t cancel it (atleast not with CoA). In conclusion I think that being catched off-guard was a big factor, which will probably not happen in this scenario. So assuming that DD can do it nonetheless is very questionable.


----------



## Urouge (Apr 19, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Jozu has far better feats than Doflamingo,anything that even remotely implies that Doflamingo can beat him is their little skirmish in the Marineford War,in which Doflamingo was portrayed superior,but he only succeeded because *Jozu was caught off-guard*. Now the only question is whether you will take that portrayal as an absolute sign of Jozu's inferiority to Doflamigno or not. I will choose not to,and therefore, Jozu wins.
> 
> Ace beats Vergo.



that's BS and you know it. he should have been on guard especially when he knew that croc was standing next to dofla. he got caught because dofla was good enough. you guys love using portrayals but when it goes against what you think you dismiss them.


----------



## RF (Apr 19, 2013)

He was off-guard. He charged towards Croc and Doflamingo moved out of the way
Jozu most likely thought that Doflamingo wouldn't interfere but instead he stopped him 
Also,portrayal is significant,but when everything favors one fighter,and the other one has only one scene indicating superiority,then we can't let portrayal be the decisive factor


----------



## tanman (Apr 19, 2013)

Why would Oda neglect to show us the apparently extraordinary circumstances under which Doflamingo overcame Jozu? When has Oda ever spared us explanation? Since when do we assume that an off-panel events occurred under unusual circumstances? And is there an explanation for this assumption besides a preconceived notion that Jozu is stronger?

Now, I'm not saying that Doflamingo would stomp Jozu and control him every time no matter what, but I am saying that it's absurd to think that Jozu would defeat Doflamingo without extraordinary circumstances of his own.


From a purely practical level, Doflamingo's victory demonstrates that he has superior CoA, he can easily control a high level fighter's entire body, he has better speed and CoO [based on the above poster's interpretation], and very few fighters would be able to break free of his hold after already being trapped.


----------



## Coruscation (Apr 19, 2013)

> I am saying that it's absurd to think that Jozu would defeat Doflamingo without extraordinary circumstances of his own



Because he was taken off-guard by a hax DF? Yeah, because that obviously _never_ happened to anyone else in the series leading to a misleading impression of what a clean fight would look like.


----------



## Urouge (Apr 19, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> He was off-guard. He charged towards Croc and Doflamingo moved out of the way
> Jozu most likely thought that Doflamingo wouldn't interfere but instead he stopped him
> Also,portrayal is significant,but when everything favors one fighter,and the other one has only one scene indicating superiority,then we can't let portrayal be the decisive factor



why would he be off guard. he knows that dofla is an enemy and he's not a noob. the only time jozu wasnt on guard was against aokiji. against dofla he got caught because dofla is haxx. he didnt know dofla ability so he didnt know how to protect himself against it.


----------



## tanman (Apr 19, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> Because he was taken off-guard by a hax DF? Yeah, because that obviously _never_ happened to anyone else in the series leading to a misleading impression of what a clean fight would look like.



But the rest of my post was about how the conclusion you and others came to about the incident is a peculiar thing to just assume. Imagine if every time a character received an injury, we said he was just caught off-guard. It would be ridiculous. There would no room for logical interpretation that you've written about valuing so dearly. Assumptions about off-panel events would trump what we actually saw on the panel.


----------



## Mihawk (Apr 19, 2013)

Urouge said:


> that's BS and you know it. he should have been on guard especially when he knew that croc was standing next to dofla. he got caught because dofla was good enough. you guys love using portrayals but when it goes against what you think you dismiss them.



this Is true.

Jozu was not caught off guard. Doflamingo was right in front of Jozu's field of vision.


----------



## Coruscation (Apr 19, 2013)

> Imagine if every time a character received an injury, we said he was just caught off-guard. It would be ridiculous



Jozu didn't even receive an injury. You're awfully quick to talk about Doflamingo's "victory". What victory? I didn't see any such thing by any definition of the word. I saw Doflamingo jumping on a busy Jozu's back, Jozu looking back at him with a pissed off face and then proceeding to calmly wait. Neither took any visible damage at all. The scene is overblown unlike any other.



> There would no room for logical interpretation that you've written about valuing so dearly. Assumptions about off-panel events would trump what we actually saw on the panel.



So until chapter 672 we should have assumed that Caesar Clown >>> Luffy since he so clearly defeated him, took a clean victory. Because it would be stupid to make assumptions instead of accepting what we actually saw on the panel.

(Consistent) logical interpretation tells us there's much more to the scene than Doflamingo "beating" Jozu. Jozu is obviously a straightforward fighter. Doflamingo has an unknown DF power. If we learn about his ability and are told it's impossible for him to restrain someone if they are stronger than himself, only then could we conclude Doflamingo>Jozu. A brief scene where a hax DF user briefly restrains, not even injures a straighforward fighter with virtually all crucial parameters unknown and an element of surprise involved tells us very little. This is just about not jumping to hasty conclusions when we have very good reason to believe yet to be revealed information is going to make us look at the scene differently.


----------



## tanman (Apr 19, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> Jozu didn't even receive an injury. You're awfully quick to talk about Doflamingo's "victory". What victory? I didn't see any such thing by any definition of the word. I saw Doflamingo jumping on a busy Jozu's back, Jozu looking back at him with a pissed off face and then proceeding to calmly wait. Neither took any visible damage at all. The scene is overblown unlike any other.



Fair enough.
Doflamingo controlled Jozu. [we can infer no other conditions than that]
Doflamingo stopped controlling Jozu when he chose to.



Coruscation said:


> So until chapter 672 we should have assumed that Caesar Clown >>> Luffy since he so clearly defeated him, took a clean victory. Because it would be stupid to make assumptions instead of accepting what we actually saw on the panel.



Yes [excluding the hyperbole, of course].



Coruscation said:


> (Consistent) logical interpretation tells us there's much more to the scene than Doflamingo "beating" Jozu. Jozu is obviously a straightforward fighter. Doflamingo has an unknown DF power. *If we learn about his ability and are told it's impossible for him to restrain someone if they are stronger than himself, only then could we conclude Doflamingo > Jozu. *A brief scene where a hax DF user briefly restrains, not even injures a straighforward fighter with virtually all crucial parameters unknown and an element of surprise involved tells us very little. This is just about not jumping to hasty conclusions when we have very good reason to believe yet to be revealed information is going to make us look at the scene differently.



The bold statement is true if we treat this encounter like we have every other encounter involving a DF user. The same as one would assume that Foxy's DF wouldn't work on Hody, despite his lack of Haki. Even if by some odd circumstance Doflamingo's fruit operates differently, this at least tells us that Doflamingo has better CoA than Jozu, a physical combat specialist.

And I don't know what is meant by "very good reason."


----------



## Coruscation (Apr 19, 2013)

> Yes



Then contrary to what you might think you're not being logical at all.



> The bold statement is true if we treat this encounter like we have every other encounter involving a DF user. The same as one would assume that Foxy's DF wouldn't work on Hody, despite his lack of Haki. Even if by some odd circumstance Doflamingo's fruit operates differently, this at least tells us that Doflamingo has better CoA than Jozu, a physical combat specialist.



I don't follow here at all. Foxy's DF would work on Hody just fine if it hit him. The fact that he'd get turned into swiss cheese long before he could raise his hands is wholly independent from that. We can't infer that about Doflamingo's COA at all. Luffy has COA and yet he suffered far worse from the attack of an inferior hax DF user. Obviously not all DFs operate the same way. We could learn that Doflamingo's DF operates in such a way that he would indeed have had to have better COA to do what he did. We could also learn that it doesn't. But we can't say either way until we know. 



> And I don't know what is meant by "very good reason."



In this case it means the fact that we know virtually nothing of the relevant parameters of the ability at hand.


----------



## Shingy (Apr 19, 2013)

Top tiers have no reason to be caught off guard.

It was definitely a good feat for Doflamingo, but it doesn't give his power much merit at the same time.

He had him immobilized, but he didn't really do anything. Most likely because he couldn't do anything. Constraining Jozu probably took the majority of his strings, I'm assuming. He would have killed Jozu if he could constrain and attack.

Jozu's defense is way too good, and since he has the highest slashing durability in the whole series, strings won't help Doflamingo's cause.

Ace beats the shit out of Vergo with mid-borderline high difficulty, like he would do with any of Luffy's peers,  and helps Jozu fight Doflamingo, which they then take with mid difficulty.


----------



## Unclear Justice (Apr 20, 2013)

The scene we are talking about:




There are not many possibilities what happened there:


a) Jozu did not notice Doflamingo.

b) Jozu noticed Doflamingo, but thought DD can?t do anything against him.

c) Jozu noticed Doflamingo, knew that DD was dangerous to him, but nevertheless attacked Crocodile. 



If a) or b) is true, it means that Jozu was off-guard when Doflamingo attacked him.

If c) is true, it means that Jozu is the most stupid person in One Piece.


Because of the way it was drawn I?m going with option a).


----------



## cry77 (Apr 20, 2013)

Jozu could solo


----------



## Shinthia (Apr 20, 2013)

Jozu vs DD was kinda like CC vs Luffy.Knowledge is very important and also Jozu was focused on beating Croc not DD.


----------



## Mys??lf (Apr 20, 2013)

How was Jozu caught offguard if he has CoO ?
I mean , if you are in a war against people like admirals , you have your CoO up at all times.
Jozu wasnt caught offguard , he just overestimated himself/underestimated Doflamingos strenght.


----------



## Shinthia (Apr 20, 2013)

MeMyselfandI said:


> How was Jozu caught offguard *if he has CoO ?*
> 
> I mean , if you are in a war against people like admirals , *you have your CoO up at all times.*
> Jozu wasnt caught offguard , he just overestimated himself/*underestimated Doflamingos* strenght.



Zoro and Sanji both has CoO but still got KOed by YC bro.


WB was caught off guard by Squard. And yes WB was in a middle of an War just like Jozu. WB let his guard down cause it was only Squard (who is not a danger to him) and kinda the same way Jozu let his guard down cause he was going after weak Crocodile (who is not a threat to him) not DD.

How did he underestimate Doflaming when DD was not even his opponent ?


----------



## RF (Apr 20, 2013)

MeMyselfandI said:


> How was Jozu caught offguard if he has CoO ?
> I mean , if you are in a war against people like admirals , you have your CoO up at all times.
> Jozu wasnt caught offguard , he just overestimated himself/underestimated Doflamingos strenght.



You aren't honeslty trying to use this argument,right ?

CoO has failed on so many instances that it's ridiculous...

I don't even know when exactly people started to believe that having CoO suddenly means that nobody could land a surprise attack on you...


----------



## Mys??lf (Apr 20, 2013)

> Zoro and Sanji both has CoO but still got KOed by YC bro.


Both of them didnt have their CoO activated at that time. You dont have CoO activated naturally , you have to activate it like CoA


> WB was caught off guard by Squard. And yes WB was in a middle of an War just like Jozu. WB let his guard down cause it was only Squard (who is not a danger to him) and kinda the same way Jozu let his guard down cause he was going after weak Crocodile (who is not a threat to him) not DD.


Just because someone has CoO activated , it doesnt mean that he universally tracks the movements of everyone in his vicinity. WB of course would focus on using CoO predominantly on his enemies and not on his allies ( why would he use CoO on his allies? he trusts them)

Doflamingo was in the field of vision of Jozu , he was standing right next to Croc , before Jozu attacked a 2nd time.  Aside from that Doflamingo is a strong enemy and a big threat, why wouldnt Jozu try to use CoO on him to read his movements?


> How did he underestimate Doflaming when DD was not even his opponent ?


Doflamingo is part of the shichibukais who (in this war) fought alongside the marines. Jozu knew well that DD was his enemy.
Jozu simply thought that Doflamingo cant stop him from beating up Croc.

I still go with Doflamingo/Vergo winning.


----------



## RF (Apr 20, 2013)

MeMyselfandI said:


> Both of them didnt have their CoO activated at that time. You dont have CoO activated naturally , you have to activate it like CoA



Whitebeard reacted to Ace in his sleep. 

That was clearly a showcasing of CoO.

You can now do 2 things:

- Argue that Whitebeard has CoO activated in his sleep

- Concede and admit that CoO isn't as powerful as you claim.


----------



## Urouge (Apr 20, 2013)

^ you need to activate your Coo. sanji in PH I think talked about it.

the point is moot anyway because jozu was in a war and it would be stupid of him to not have his COO on. he didnt even need Coo because dofla was right next to croc.he has to be blind to not have seen him.


----------



## Shinthia (Apr 20, 2013)

ok. So, if Jozu saw DD and was on his guard (had his CoO active) and still a casual DD stop him very very easily which an Admiral could not.That would mean in a serious 1 vs 1 fight, serious DD will own Jozu within 1 or 2 sec.

so, yes that feat proves DD > > an Admiral and strongest warlord by a huge gap


----------



## RF (Apr 20, 2013)

Jozu OBVIOUSLY didn't expect Dofla to interfere. 

He was focusing on Crocodile,and Dofla moved out of the way.

Jozu was about to punch Crocodile's shit in, and Dofla restrained him.

Jozu then proceeded to suprisingly look at him AKA, he wasn't expect Dofla.

That's exactly what the manga presented us.


----------



## Urouge (Apr 20, 2013)

what the hell? he's in war and dofla is his enemy why wouldnt he expect him to interfere? jozu is not that stupid.


----------



## Unclear Justice (Apr 20, 2013)

There are different usages of CoO:

In general it allows you to feel the presence of other people. That is what Sanji used on PH to find Kinemons Torso. I don?t remember Sanji saying he activated it, he just used it.

Then there is the method of predicting enemy movements with killing intent. This doesn?t need to be activated conciously too, otherwise Luffy couldn?t have used it in Marineford.

And now I ask:

Did Doflamingo try to kill Jozu by stopping him? I think not. That?s why CoO shouldn?t even be a topic in this discussion.


----------



## Alaude (Apr 20, 2013)

Ace would most likely be able to defeat Vergo when Jozu fights with Doflamingo. And then Ace would help Jozu win against Dofla so I would say Ace and Jozu high to extreme diff.


----------



## Unclear Justice (Apr 20, 2013)

Urouge said:


> what the hell? he's in war and dofla is his enemy why wouldnt he expect him to interfere? *jozu is not that stupid*.



In your opinion he seems to be it because he attacked Crocodile in this instance and thus gave DD an opening.


----------



## RF (Apr 20, 2013)

Urouge said:


> what the hell? he's in war and dofla is his enemy why wouldnt he expect him to interfere? jozu is not that stupid.



So Jozu willingly ignored Doflamingo and went for Crocodile, even though he knew that he would try to stop him ?

That doesn't make sense at all. 

It was clearly obvious from the surprised look on his face that he simply wasn't expecting it.

He thought that Doflamingo would get away,but instead he chose not to,which took Jozu by surprise.

That's what the manga showed us.


----------



## Urouge (Apr 20, 2013)

Unclear Justice said:


> In your opinion he seems to be it because he attacked Crocodile in this instance and thus gave DD an opening.



he attacked crocodile because he was after him. he clearly saw that dofla was there next to him and still went to croc. you can say that he underestimated dofla but you cant say that he wasnt on guard. he was also using COA to croc so this shows that his COA wasnt even enough to stop doflas attack.



Sakazuki said:


> So Jozu willingly ignored Doflamingo and went for Crocodile, even though he knew that he would try to stop him ?
> 
> That doesn't make sense at all.
> 
> ...



but that's a shitty excuse in a war. he knows that dofla is an enemy so why wouldnt he be weary of him? he was focuses on dofla but that doesnt stop him from looking out for dofla


----------



## Urouge (Apr 20, 2013)

Alaude said:


> Ace would most likely be able to defeat Vergo when Jozu fights with Doflamingo. And then Ace would help Jozu win against Dofla so I would say Ace and Jozu high to extreme diff.



I agree with this. the only thing I disagree with is the fact that jozu is stronger than dofla on his own.


----------



## Unclear Justice (Apr 20, 2013)

Urouge said:


> he attacked crocodile because he was after him. he clearly saw that dofla was there next to him and still went to croc. you can say that he underestimated dofla but you cant say that he wasnt on guard. he was also using COA to croc so this shows that his COA wasnt even enough to stop doflas attack.
> 
> ...



I think we are arguing about about semantics at this point. Off-guard doesn?t equal zero usage of Haki to me. It just means that he wasn?t using it at his fullest. Can you agree with the following?


Most people in OP-Verse don?t fight to their fullest from the beginning and Marineford is no exception to that. Now follows a little sketch about what I think is the case.


The left part is a scale of Jozu?s CoA-Haki with the top being his maximum and the bottom when he doesn?t us Haki at all. (I don?t want to imply anything with the distances I use)


-  Jozu?s maximum when dead serious
|
|
-  CoA needed to prevent being controlled by DD
|
| 
-  Jozu?s normal amount of CoA used in MF 
|
|
-  CoA needed to hurt Crocodile
|
|  No Haki used

And since we can?t be sure that Jozu did use his full potential in this instance, we can?t give Doflamingo this feat in the scenario of this thread.


----------



## cry77 (Apr 20, 2013)

Unclear Justice said:


> There are different usages of CoO:
> 
> In general it allows you to feel the presence of other people. That is what Sanji used on PH to find Kinemons Torso. I don?t remember Sanji saying he activated it, he just used it.
> 
> ...


luffy used CoO at MF?


----------



## Unclear Justice (Apr 20, 2013)

cry77 said:


> luffy used CoO at MF?



Fourth panel:


----------



## cry77 (Apr 20, 2013)

Unclear Justice said:


> Fourth panel:


If you need haki to predict that punching a swordsman gets your hands cut off I must be a haki master.


----------



## KST (Apr 20, 2013)

Dofla would stomp seriously what the fuck that's not even worth a discussion
Ace and Jozu are dumb fools


----------



## RF (Apr 20, 2013)

KST said:


> Dofla would stomp



How did you conclude that ?


----------



## Dunno (Apr 20, 2013)

First of all, the scene where Doflamingo sits on Jozu indicates that he is stronger:


Also compare what happens when Jozu is frozen by Aokiji:

*Spoiler*: __ 









To what happens when Doflamingo is frozen by Aokiji:

*Spoiler*: __ 








It's pretty clear to me that Doflamingo is superior, and not by a small margin.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 20, 2013)

MeMyselfandI said:


> what stops Doflamingo from taking control of both  from the get go ?
> If Jozus CoA is insufficient to prevent being controlled by Doflamingos strings , then logically Ace , whos COA is probably inferior to Jozus , cant prevent it either ...
> or am i wrong here ?



Is there any proof he can control a logias?  He cut down Smoker, but he didn't control him or stop his movements.


----------



## Pacifista (Apr 20, 2013)

Dunno said:


> First of all, the scene where Doflamingo sits on Jozu indicates that he is stronger:
> 
> 
> Also compare what happens when Jozu is frozen by Aokiji:
> ...



A. Being attacked by an opponent that you weren't expecting doesn't make you weaker than them. At all. Remember when Wiper got knocked out for a while by Holy? Did that mean the dog was stronger than Wiper? Or did it mean it simply caught him whilst he was off-guard?

B. There are extreme differences between Kuzan vs Doflamingo and Aokiji vs Jozu. For one, Kuzan was never aiming to kill Doflamingo. He warned him to stop and when he didn't he casually froze him on the spot without using his hands. In Aokiji vs Jozu, there were no questions here. They were both out to do each other in and they were fighting well against each other until Jozu got distracted. Jozu was frozen completely through and through. Mind you, Buffalo was extremely thankful that Doflamingo _wasn't_ frozen to that extent. And if anything, this just shows that Jozu is superior. Kuzan could stop Doflamingo without moving a muscle. Jozu vs Aokiji actually went on for a little bit and an upperhand was gained only when Jozu was distracted and even then he was able to fight him off for a little longer. Also, mind that Aokiji used both hands to freeze Jozu's arm. Seeing a difference between the two battles?

There certainly isn't evidence that Doflamingo is so superior to Jozu, if he is at all.


----------



## Dunno (Apr 21, 2013)

Pacifista said:


> A. Being attacked by an opponent that you weren't expecting doesn't make you weaker than them. At all. Remember when Wiper got knocked out for a while by Holy? Did that mean the dog was stronger than Wiper? Or did it mean it simply caught him whilst he was off-guard?
> 
> B. There are extreme differences between Kuzan vs Doflamingo and Aokiji vs Jozu. For one, Kuzan was never aiming to kill Doflamingo. He warned him to stop and when he didn't he casually froze him on the spot without using his hands. In Aokiji vs Jozu, there were no questions here. They were both out to do each other in and they were fighting well against each other until Jozu got distracted. Jozu was frozen completely through and through. Mind you, Buffalo was extremely thankful that Doflamingo _wasn't_ frozen to that extent. And if anything, this just shows that Jozu is superior. Kuzan could stop Doflamingo without moving a muscle. Jozu vs Aokiji actually went on for a little bit and an upperhand was gained only when Jozu was distracted and even then he was able to fight him off for a little longer. Also, mind that Aokiji used both hands to freeze Jozu's arm. Seeing a difference between the two battles?
> 
> There certainly isn't evidence that Doflamingo is so superior to Jozu, if he is at all.



A: Being hit an attack from someone you didn't expect doesn't show that you're weaker than said person, no. Being restrained for quite a while and being unable to break free does however. Especially if the person restraining you isn't even exerting himself. If Doflamingo had just hit Jozu and made him bleed a little bit it would have been one thing, but now that he sat on him, it makes him look stronger.

2: Doflamingo was actually trying to kill Smoker when Aokiji froze him. He had his back turned on Aokiji and was hoping to silence Smoker before Aokiji could intervene. He was caught off-guard just as much as Jozu, who actually was fighting Aokiji, and still got caught. 

Off course there's no evidence for Doflamingo being stronger, just like there's no evidence for Kaido being stronger than Doflamingo. That's why we have to look at things feats and portrayal to try and determine which character is stronger.


----------



## Shinthia (Apr 21, 2013)

Dunno said:


> Doflamingo was actually trying to kill Smoker when Aokiji froze him. He had his back turned on Aokiji and was hoping to silence Smoker before Aokiji could intervene. *He was caught off-guard*just as much as Jozu, who actually was fighting Aokiji, and still got caught.
> 
> Off course there's no evidence for Doflamingo being stronger, just like there's no evidence for Kaido being stronger than Doflamingo. That's why we have to look at things feats and portrayal to try and determine which character is stronger.



lol.

DD was warned by the fucking Aokiji , did he not ? How DD is off guard here ?

DD wank in this thread is too strong.


----------



## Dunno (Apr 21, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> lol.
> 
> DD was warned by the fucking Aokiji , did he not ? How DD is off guard here ?
> 
> DD wank in this thread is too strong.



He was caught off-guard the same way Jozu was caught off-guard. They both knew that Aokiji was right next to them, and they both chose to focus their attention on something else. Jozu chose to look at Marco getting shot and Doflamingo chose to try and kill Smoker. You don't need the guy you're currently fighting to warn you that he's there.


----------



## Shinthia (Apr 21, 2013)

Dunno said:


> He was caught off-guard the same way Jozu was caught off-guard. They both knew that Aokiji was right next to them, and they both chose to focus their attention on something else. Jozu chose to look at Marco getting shot and Doflamingo chose to try and kill Smoker. You don't need the guy you're currently fighting to warn you that he's there.



both u and me know it ,the situation was not the same.

Jozu was distracted by Marco and let his guard down. It was just a split sec of distraction that allowed Aokiji to freeze him.

DD was first warned by Aokiji and DD chose to go for Smoker knowing full well Aokiji will do something. He was desperate to kill Smoker and ignored the warning and probably prepared for the worse . and also Aokiji did not even bother use his hand.


----------



## Dunno (Apr 21, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> both u and me know it ,the situation was not the same.
> 
> Jozu was distracted by Marco and let his guard down. It was just a split sec of distraction that allowed Aokiji to freeze him.
> 
> DD was first warned by Aokiji and DD chose to go for Smoker knowing full well Aokiji will do something. He was desperate to kill Smoker and ignored the warning and probably prepared for the worse . and also Aokiji did not even bother use his hand.



Of course the situation weren't identical, but the principle still stands; they were both attacked when their defenses were down and they weren't focusing on their enemy. Doflamingo had his back turned on Aokiji and couldn't see him, so he obviously couldn't react to what Aokiji was doing. Jozu was distracted by what happened to Marco, and could therefore not react to what Aokiji was doing. Both of them should have know that Aokiji was going to attack, Doflamingo because of the warning and Jozu because he was fighting with him.


----------



## Pacifista (Apr 21, 2013)

Dunno said:


> A: Being hit an attack from someone you didn't expect doesn't show that you're weaker than said person, no. Being restrained for quite a while and being unable to break free does however. Especially if the person restraining you isn't even exerting himself. If Doflamingo had just hit Jozu and made him bleed a little bit it would have been one thing, but now that he sat on him, it makes him look stronger.



You have absolutely no idea if Jozu tried to break out or not. You also have no idea to what extent Doflamingo was exerting himself. Jozu was clearly unworried by Doflamingo being on his back. There was no expression of horror or shock. He just had his usual pissed off face but he wasn't sweating at all.

So you can't just go assuming that he was struggling to get out or anything like that. Compare that to when Doflamingo controlled Water Buffalo or that V.A. They were clearly trying to break free and he controlled them like puppets. That wasn't the case here. He merely stopped an off-guard Jozu and we have no idea to what degree of effort it took or if Jozu was struggling. 


> 2: Doflamingo was actually trying to kill Smoker when Aokiji froze him. He had his back turned on Aokiji and was hoping to silence Smoker before Aokiji could intervene. He was caught off-guard just as much as Jozu, who actually was fighting Aokiji, and still got caught.



No he wasn't. He knew Kuzan was standing there. You must not understand what off-guard means. It means unprepared. He knew that there was an Admiral right behind him because the dude freaking told him to move. He obviously knew what he was capable of. Jozu was fighting Crocodile and Doflamingo shows up out of nowhere. Obviously a huge difference here.


> Off course there's no evidence for Doflamingo being stronger, just like there's no evidence for Kaido being stronger than Doflamingo. That's why we have to look at things feats and portrayal to try and determine which character is stronger.



And you have no feats or portrayal that say that Doflamingo is significantly above Jozu if he is at all.



Dunno said:


> Of course the situation weren't identical, but the principle still stands; they were both attacked when their defenses were down and they weren't focusing on their enemy. Doflamingo had his back turned on Aokiji and couldn't see him, so he obviously couldn't react to what Aokiji was doing.



And again, completely different. Doflamingo knew that Kuzan was standing right there and he obviously knew what would come if he pressed his attack on Smoker. He just did a gamble to see if he could kill the V.A. before Kuzan intervened and he failed.

He was completely aware of the situation. A completely situation to what happened between Jozu and Doflamingo.


----------



## Urouge (Apr 21, 2013)

^ dofla didnt came out of nowhere pacifista. he was right next to croc when jozu was getting ready to attack croc again. theres no way that he didnt see him.


----------



## Dunno (Apr 21, 2013)

If Jozu would have been able to break free he would have, as there would have been no reason for him not to. The same way Akainu probably tried to avoid/block WB's attacks. It would make sense, but there's no proof of it, so he might have just tanked it for the lulz. Doflamingo sat on Jozu, talking casually with Crocodile. This indicates that Doflamingo is stronger than Jozu, I just don't get how everyone can not see this. They were both frozen by the same man, under similar (not identical) circumstances, and one of them lost his arm and the other panted a little after breaking free. Not to mention that Doflamingo's still missing a negative feat, like Jozu's loss of an arm, and that he's got much more influence, not only in-universe but also story-wise.

Being caught off-guard means being caught with your guard down, which I reckon Doflamingo was as he wasn't even facing Aokiji. Do you thing it's easier to block an attack from behind (while attacking an enemy in front of you) than an attack coming from the guy you're facing while being distracted? I'd say it's about the same difficulty.


----------



## Ace is king (Apr 21, 2013)

I honestly believe ace can beat vergo high diff and i dont wank ace. Since ace and vergo will be fighting jozu will have his full attention on doflamingo. And I believe that jozu is stronger than flamingo and he just got caught off guard. but even if their fight is difficult ace will come in eventually and they will tag team doflamingo


----------



## HxH d Best Ever (Apr 21, 2013)

two-armed Jozu soloes.


----------



## Kai (Apr 21, 2013)

Despite the valid arguments I believe Doflamingo > Jozu. His ability and style seems to match up well against Jozu's. Ace > Vergo with high difficulty but Doflamingo can make numbers a nasty problem with his DF.

Doflamingo/Vergo high-extreme diff.


----------



## Pacifista (Apr 21, 2013)

Urouge said:


> ^ dofla didnt came out of nowhere pacifista. he was right next to croc when jozu was getting ready to attack croc again. theres no way that he didnt see him.



He was attacking Crocodile. Doflamingo interfered in the battle. Not even Crocodile realized that he was standing next to the flamingo. So in the context of their fight, yeah, Doflamingo interfered out of nowhere as it was clear neither Jozu or Crocodile realized he was there or was going to intervene.



Dunno said:


> If Jozu would have been able to break free he would have, as there would have been no reason for him not to.


Or. He was relatively unconcerned because he knew he wasn't going to die since he could defend against it. 


> The same way Akainu probably tried to avoid/block WB's attacks. It would make sense, but there's no proof of it, so he might have just tanked it for the lulz.



...Probably? Why do you insist on using so many assumptions when we can look right at the manga? The first hit that Whitebeard did on Akainu, the Admiral had no idea that the Strongest Man in the World was behind him. So no, he didn't try to avoid or block it because he had no idea he was there. The second hit, well he had countered with Meigou just a moment before and Whitebeard caught him whilst he had just attacked. So again, no he didn't avoid or block it.


> Doflamingo sat on Jozu, talking casually with Crocodile. This indicates that Doflamingo is stronger than Jozu, I just don't get how everyone can not see this.



You also see Jozu completely unworried whilst the then Shichibukai was standing on top of him. I could just as easily say that this indicates Jozu is stronger than Doflamingo since he was unconcerned about a powerful enemy standing on top of him and a dangerous enemy in front of him. 



> They were both frozen by the same man, under similar (not identical) circumstances,



No they weren't. One was frozen without Kuzan moving a muscle and hands in his pocket and the other was frozen with both hands.


> and one of them lost his arm and the other panted a little after breaking free.



Wrong again. One was frozen all of the way through while the other wasn't because Kuzan wasn't even aiming to kill him. 



> Not to mention that Doflamingo's still missing a negative feat, like Jozu's loss of an arm, and that he's got much more influence, not only in-universe but also story-wise.


Negative feat? First I've heard of such a thing. And the rest of this isn't even relevant to strength in a 1v1 battle.



> Being caught off-guard means being caught with your guard down, which I reckon Doflamingo was as he wasn't even facing Aokiji.


Being off-guard has nothing to do with whether you're facing an opponent with your face or back. It has everything to do with one being ready to fight or fend off an attack. You can be caught off-guard by a person who is standing directly in front of you if you aren't expecting them to attack you. Doflamingo expressly knew that Kuzan was standing right behind him. He knew that if he continued to attack Smoker that he himself would be attacked by Kuzan. He decided to press the attack anyway. That's not being off-guard.


----------



## Magician (Apr 22, 2013)

Vergo gets one shotted by Jozu and then Ace jumps in and takes Doflamingo on 2v1.


----------



## Dunno (Apr 22, 2013)

Pacifista said:


> He was attacking Crocodile. Doflamingo interfered in the battle. Not even Crocodile realized that he was standing next to the flamingo. So in the context of their fight, yeah, Doflamingo interfered out of nowhere as it was clear neither Jozu or Crocodile realized he was there or was going to intervene.



Yes Jozu was caught off-guard by Flamingo too, which by the way seems to be a mistake he makes a lot, but he wasn't held off-guard, he had a lot of time to break out off Doflamingo's hold.



Pacifista said:


> Or. He was relatively unconcerned because he knew he wasn't going to die since he could defend against it.



So you think he would just sit there and let Doflamingo sit on his back talking to Crocodile without doing anything? It's far more likely that he couldn't break out.



Pacifista said:


> ...Probably? Why do you insist on using so many assumptions when we can look right at the manga? The first hit that Whitebeard did on Akainu, the Admiral had no idea that the Strongest Man in the World was behind him. So no, he didn't try to avoid or block it because he had no idea he was there. The second hit, well he had countered with Meigou just a moment before and Whitebeard caught him whilst he had just attacked. So again, no he didn't avoid or block it.



If Akainu could have dodged WB's hits he would have, but he couldn't. The same way Jozu would have broken out of the grip if he could, but he couldn't.



Pacifista said:


> You also see Jozu completely unworried whilst the then Shichibukai was standing on top of him. I could just as easily say that this indicates Jozu is stronger than Doflamingo since he was unconcerned about a powerful enemy standing on top of him and a dangerous enemy in front of him.




You can see his grimace and the vein on his forehead, they do not indicate that he's unworried or taking it easy. They indicate that he's either straining to break loose, angry or stressed. 



Pacifista said:


> No they weren't. One was frozen without Kuzan moving a muscle and hands in his pocket and the other was frozen with both hands.



Aokiji wouldn't endanger Smoker by not using a weaker attack than he could. It was probably the fastest attack he could use, if not the most powerful one. Also it's a DF ability, it's not necessarily stronger if he uses his hands. 



Pacifista said:


> Wrong again. One was frozen all of the way through while the other wasn't because Kuzan wasn't even aiming to kill him.



Why would Aokiji aim to kill Jozu, who hadn't done anything to him, more than Doflamingo, who had hurt, and was trying to kill one of his friends and subordinates. 



Pacifista said:


> Negative feat? First I've heard of such a thing. And the rest of this isn't even relevant to strength in a 1v1 battle.



A Negative feat is a feat that limits the character's power, instead of increasing the odds that the character is strong. E.g. Luffy one-shotting Bellamy is a negative feat for Bellamy because it's a feat that let's us be sure that Bellamy is quite a bit weaker than Luffy. Jozu losing his arm in conjuncture with the amount of damage he inflicted on Aokiji when he hit him with a surprise-attack shows us that Aokiji is quite a bit stronger than Jozu. That is a negative feat.



Pacifista said:


> Being off-guard has nothing to do with whether you're facing an opponent with your face or back. It has everything to do with one being ready to fight or fend off an attack. You can be caught off-guard by a person who is standing directly in front of you if you aren't expecting them to attack you. Doflamingo expressly knew that Kuzan was standing right behind him. He knew that if he continued to attack Smoker that he himself would be attacked by Kuzan. He decided to press the attack anyway. That's not being off-guard.



Do you think Doflamingo's defense was as good as it would have been if he was facing Aokiji, concentrating on blocking/avoiding his attack? Otherwise he was caught with his guard down, in other words, he was caught off-guard. He knew that Aokiji was going to attack and he still chose to try and kill Smoker, thereby not guarding Aokiji's attack. Thus he was frozen, but as his defense was better than Jozu's he wasn't frozen all the way to his heart.


----------

