# Jiraiya vs Itachi (in stats)



## Chad (Dec 19, 2013)

Fill out this form.

```
Ninjutsu:
Genjutsu:
Taijutsu:
Fuinjutsu:
Speed:
Intelligence:
Range:
Stamina:
Durability:
Destructive Capacity:
```

My Opinion
Ninjutsu: Jiraiya
Genjutsu: Itachi
Taijutsu: Jiraiya
Fuinjutsu: Itachi
Speed: Itachi
Intelligence: Itachi
Range: Itachi
Stamina: Jiraiya
Durability: Jiraiya
Destructive Capacity: Jiraiya


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## ZE (Dec 19, 2013)

For the record, I'm counting SM Jiraiya here. 

Ninjutsu: Itachi
Genjutsu: Itachi
Taijutsu: Jiraiya
Fuinjutsu: Tie
Speed: Tie
Intelligence: Itachi
Range: Itachi
Stamina: Jiraiya
Durability: Jiraiya
Destructive Capacity: Jiraiya

Jiraiya: 4
Itachi:4
Tie: 2

I guess their databook stats were spot on.


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## Wolfstein (Dec 19, 2013)

*Ninjutsu: *Itachi
*Genjutsu:* Itachi
*Taijutsu:* Jiraiya
*Fuinjutsu:* Draw
*Speed: * Draw
*Intelligence:* Itachi
*Range:* Itachi
*Stamina*: Jiraiya
*Durability:* Jiraiya 
*Destructive Capacity: J*iraiya
_*SM Was Included*
_
Jiraiya: 4
Itachi:4
Draw: 2


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## Ersa (Dec 19, 2013)

Ninjutsu: Tie.
Genjutsu: Itachi
Taijutsu: Jiraiya
Fuinjutsu: Itachi
Speed: Itachi
Intelligence: Itachi
Range: Itachi
Stamina: Jiraiya
Durability: Jiraiya
Destructive Capacity: Itachi (an attack capable of putting down Cerberus which tanked FRS, hurts the Juubi and Hachibi is much better then Senpo COR)

Itachi - 6
Jiraiya - 3
Tie - 1


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## Octavian (Dec 19, 2013)

Ninjutsu: Itachi
Genjutsu: Itachi
Taijutsu: Tie (Itachi is better in terms of finesse/ SM Jiraiya packs much more of a punch)
Fuinjutsu: Itachi
Speed: Tie
Intelligence: Itachi
Range: Itachi
Stamina: Jiraiya
Durability: Jiraiya
Destructive Capacity: Jiraiya

Itachi: 5/6
SM Jiraiya: 3
Tie: 1/2


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## ARGUS (Dec 19, 2013)

Ninjutsu: Itachi
Genjutsu: Itachi
Taijutsu: Tie (Itachi is better in terms of finesse/ SM Jiraiya packs much more of a punch)
Fuinjutsu: Itachi
Speed: Jiraiya
Intelligence: Itachi
Range: Itachi
Stamina: Jiraiya
Durability: Jiraiya
Destructive Capacity: Itachi

Itachi: 6
SM Jiraiya: 3
Tie: 1/2


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Dec 19, 2013)

_*Sage Mode is included**_
*Ninjutsu:* _Tie._
*Genjutsu:* _Itachi._
*Taijutsu:* _Jiraiya._
*Fuinjutsu:* _Itachi._
*Speed:* _Itachi._
*Intelligence:* _Itachi._
*Range:* _Itachi._
*Stamina:* _Jiraiya._
*Durability:* _Jiraiya._
*Destructive Capacity:* _Tie._

*Itachi:* _5_
*Jiraiya:* _3_
*Tie.* _2_



I've said it before and I'll say it again, this is a very inaccurate way of comparing characters.


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## wooly Eullerex (Dec 19, 2013)

Ninjutsu: Tie
Genjutsu: Itachi
Taijutsu: /
Fuinjutsu: Jiraiya
Speed: /
Intelligence: 
versatility: tie
Stamina: Jiraiya
Durability: /
weapon skills: Itachi
reflexes: Itachi


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## Alex Payne (Dec 19, 2013)

Ninjutsu: Itachi(edges with MS being broken)
Genjutsu: Itachi
Taijutsu: Jiraiya(due to superior strength)
Fuinjutsu: Itachi(Tensha Fuin: Amaterasu)
Speed: Itachi(edges out due to superior reactions)
Intelligence: Itachi
Range: Itachi(Magatama)
Stamina: Jiraiya(SM user)
Durability: Jiraiya(SM durability)
Destructive Capacity: Itachi(Amaterasu)


Itachi da best


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## Shizune (Dec 20, 2013)

Ninjutsu: Jiraiya
Genjutsu: Itachi
Taijutsu: Itachi
Fuinjutsu: Jiraiya
Speed: Itachi
Intelligence: Itachi
Range: Itachi
Stamina: Jiraiya
Durability: Jiraiya
Destructive Capacity: Itachi


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## Blazing Archer (Dec 20, 2013)

SM or Base? vSM 
Ninjutsu: Jiraiya
Genjutsu: Itachi(Jiraiya with toads' genjutsu)
Taijutsu: Jiraiya
Fuinjutsu: Jiraiya
Speed: Tie
Intelligence: Itachi
Range: Jiraiya
Stamina: Jiraiya
Durability: Jiraiya
Destructive Capacity: Jiraiya


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## Sadgoob (Dec 20, 2013)

I'll talk about base Itachi and base Jiraiya.

*Ninjutsu: Tie*

Itachi superhumanly excels in seal speed moreso than any other ninja, allowing him to create clones faster than Sasuke's Eternal Mangekyō can track, or for Sage Kabuto to detect, and can likewise pre-empt perfect Sages with suitons. Itachi has copy eyes, so he may know or be capable of copying more impressive jutsu.

Jiraiya, in contrast, has human technical proficiency, but an infinitely more impressive known library of jutsu, as well as the best kuchiyose family. Yomi Numa, Toad Intestines, oil techniques, and Gamabunta, etc... the only thing Itachi has over Jiriaya is katon size, but WAIT, Jiriaya can supplement his bijū territory.

Overall, I'd say they're equal here. Itachi's so fast and skilled that he'd inevitably dominate a close range encounter from raw technical proficiency, but Jiraiya's arsenal is so impressive that he'd be able to pressure Itachi, or entire armies of ninja for that matter, from a distance with his Gamabunta combination or Yomi Numa. 

*Genjutsu: Itachi*

Itachi's hyped to be able to control armies with genjutsu, and do it right under sensor's noses, manipulate time, and was described as heaven above earth by Danzō, even after Sasuke was called a super rare genius in genjutsu by C. Even Sage Kabuto feared Itachi would control him like a puppet, so Kabuto just straight up closed his eyes. Itachi's likely the most gifted genjutsu user to ever live.

Jiriaya, in contrast, admits that he's no good with genjutsu His summons have an interesting one though. If taking them into consideration, Itachi's feats and versatility still come out on top.

*Taijutsu: Itachi*

In terms of skill, both are listed as 4.5/5 in the databook. If Itachi were without his Sharingan and speed were equalized, you could expect them to do roughly evenly i.e. Itachi's shōten clone & Kakashi.

However, there is no weapons category, so I'm assuming it plays its role here. Itachi is the single most skilled weapons user in the manga, capable of throwing shuriken so fast that Sasuke needed prep to keep up, and even then, Itachi used jutsu while doing so, and he was later stated to be fighting so badly compared to his peak that he seemed severely injured. Then he curved projectiles into six Rinnegans, causing Kabuto to mutter about Itachi being too good.

Secondly, the Sharingan is just a huge boost in close combat. We saw Sasuke go from getting blitzed to doing the blitzing. We know that Sasuke and Deidara had the same speed and taijutsu, but that Sasuke could casually dominate him because of the Sharingan.

Lastly, I also believe that peak Itachi would have a very significant speed advantage. Edo Itachi was using the flicker to blitz Bee, and Edo Tensei dulls reflexes, and subsequently speed, significantly. I find it unlikely that Jiriaya's strength advantage over sick Itachi would be present against peak Itachi, or at least be quite marginal.

*Fūinjutsu: Tie*

Itachi's fūinjutsu skill is overlooked. Nobody else has used sealing techniques like him. He sealed creatures, traps, and powerful dōjutsu like Amaterasu and Kotoamatsukami in unknowing hosts that would trigger when he intended. Even Obito didn't know how Itachi was able to manage that, and said it was just one more example of how Itachi constantly amazed him, even in death. 

Jiriaya is a very veteran seal user. He comments in part one that only another Sannin could compete with his knowledge, but I don't think he knew the depths of Itachi's knowledge. For the most part, his sealing techniques revolved around his kuchiyose. He'd either suck them into a toad belly, or form a toad belly around them. He also sealed remnants of Amaterasu in a scroll. 

So if I had to cut it up here, I'd say Jiraiya has a possible knowledge advantage, but that Itachi's innnovation and technical skill make up the difference in knowledge that may or may not exist.

*Speed: Itachi*

I commented on this in the taijutsu section. Itachi at his peak would be very fast and reflexive, even without his dōjutsu. He'd be blitzing Bee at the very least and probably better still. 

Jiriaya has a 4.5 in speed, which is respectable, but quite slow in comparison. Deidara had the same exact stat, but has better feats than base Jiriaya, as Deidara reacted well against Team Gai and Kakashi, but was then blitzed by Hebi Sasuke, who was slower than a seemingly "severely injured" (sick) Itachi. 

*Intelligence: Itachi*

Jiraiya's knowledgeable and wise, but I wouldn't say he's intelligent. He tends to be a bit of a buffoon in battle, which both Nagato and Orochimaru commented on when Jiriaya was dancing and tripping over himself. His hubris and jocular attitude is a major detractor for him in just about any battle. It's his canon mindset, and it sucks. 

Itachi, in contrast, is levelheaded, and has the attitude and mindset that every enemy and jutsu can be overcome. He just has to figure out how, which he probably can, given that he's hyped to be so perceptive that he reads souls and was stated to have planned out the entire fight with Hebi Sauske, including Sasuke's contingencies. Plus he was as wise as Hiruzen at age seven, and didn't need to be taught things as a child. He's smarter than Shikamaru.

*Range: Jiraiya*

I addressed this in the ninjutsu section. Jiriaya is potentially one of the greatest ranged warriors in the manga, particularly as a guerilla fighter with swamps and barriers and sucking people into toads.

*Stamina: Jiraiya*

Jiriaya had max stamina and sick Itachi had 2.5/5 in stamina. While I do believe that peak Itachi's score would be significantly higher, I don't think it would be quite at the maximum level. Peak Itachi is probably aorund current Kakashi in stamina.

*Durability: Tie*

Neither has superhuman resilience. You stab them, they're getting hurt. Both can take a beating and keep on fighting, however, as they each demonstrated before they died. Jiraiya was in Sage Mode though, so its tricky to know where to draw the line for base.

*Destructive Capacity: Jiraiya*

I addressed this in the ninjutsu section. Jiraiya has bijū level firepower, that can both rain down from the sky or suck you up from the earth. He'd wrestly with bijū, no problem. Base Itachi hasn't shown anything like that and would need genjutsu.​


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## Sadgoob (Dec 20, 2013)

ZE said:


> I guess their databook stats were spot on.



Adding databook scores together is incorrect. Asuma is not better than Kazekage Gaara, for instance. It simply measures ninja proficiency and knowledge in the areas, not jutsu or forms.

What the databook stats show are Itachi being better at everything, except scores like strength, stamina, and hand to hand combat that his "severely injured" sick state would clearly affect negatively.

I find it probable that, given Itachi's ability to master ninja basics, he was competent enough to train his stamina and strength to a well above average level before he reached the final stages of cancer.

And before we do the dance, Kimimaro had a special body that regenerated early, and being old and in great shape is not the same as being a day or two away from dying of disease.​


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## Alex Payne (Dec 20, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> And before we do the dance, Kimimaro had a special body that regenerated early, and being old and in great shape is not the same as being a day or two away from dying of disease.​


Sarutobi wasn't in great shape. There was numerous statements about his drop in performance. And he still got 5/5. 

SRA out-of-surgery Lee got +0.5 taijutsu boost. 

Nin/Tai/Gen stats aren't affected by physical disabilities.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 20, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Sarutobi wasn't in great shape. There was numerous statements about his drop in performance. And he still got 5/5.
> 
> SRA out-of-surgery Lee got +0.5 taijutsu boost.
> 
> Nin/Tai/Gen stats aren't affected by physical disabilities.



Obviously, I meant great shape for a 69 year old. A 70 year old in great shape can maintain a higher level of performance in martial arts than someone about to die from AIDs.

Ōnoki on the other hand, would probably have his taijutsu proficiency stat lowered from his peak too, since he hobbles around and his back constantly gives out.

SRA out-of-surgery Lee performed extremely well against Kimimaro. Taijutsu is hand to hand combat and is therefore clearly going to have its _*proficiency*_ score affected by physicality.​


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## Ghost (Dec 20, 2013)

Ninjutsu: Itachi
Genjutsu: Itachi
Taijutsu: Itachi
Fuinjutsu: Itachi
Speed: Itachi
Intelligence: Itachi
Range: Itachi
Stamina: Jiraiya
Durability: Jiraiya
Destructive Capacity: Jiraiya


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## Alex Payne (Dec 20, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Obviously, I meant great shape for a 69 year old. A 70 year old in great shape can maintain a higher level of performance in martial arts than someone about to die from AIDs.
> 
> Ōnoki on the other hand, would probably have his taijutsu proficiency stat lowered from his peak too, since he hobbles around and his back constantly gives out.
> 
> SRA out-of-surgery Lee performed extremely well against Kimimaro. Taijutsu is hand to hand combat and is therefore clearly going to have its _*proficiency*_ score affected by physicality.​


I don't get you.

You argue that physical disability affects Tai stat. Sarutobi was _significantly_ weakened yet he got perfect score. Enma called him "pathetic" compared to his normal form. He might not be as weakened as Hebi-fight Itachi but his drop was sufficient enough to lose points.

_Weakened_ Lee who was unable to use higher Gates and whose performance was commented on by Gaara to be worser than in CE got a +0.5 boost compared to his crazy performance with 5 Gates.

P2 Orochimaru who was unable to properly use his arms still retained 5/5 in Ninjutsu, Genjutsu and _Handseals_.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 20, 2013)

alex payne said:


> I don't get you.
> 
> You argue that physical disability affects Tai stat. Sarutobi was _significantly_ weakened yet he got perfect score.
> 
> Enma called him "pathetic" compared to his normal form. He might not be as weakened as Hebi-fight Itachi but his drop was sufficient enough to lose points.[



Itachi was slowed and got a perfect score in speed. Despite being weakened, Hiruzen maintained his score in taijutsu. That doesn't mean his proficiency in hand to hand combat wasn't lessened.

It just wasn't mitigated enough. And again, the final stages of AIDs is worse than just being elderly. Both may have been and probably were above certain stat caps before being debilitated.​


alex payne said:


> _Weakened_ Lee who was unable to use higher Gates and whose performance was commented on by Gaara to be worser than in CE got a +0.5 boost compared to his crazy performance with 5 Gates.



Lee's taijutsu performance, barring gates, was better against Kimimaro than Gaara. The databook reflects that. Gaara's comment came later on, after Lee intoxicated himself and lost the edge.​


alex payne said:


> P2 Orochimaru who was unable to properly use his arms still retained 5/5 in Ninjutsu, Genjutsu and _Handseals_.



Orochimaru's only stats are in DB3, where he used snake bulimia, Rashōman, etc. He clearly maintained his ninjutsu proficiency fairly well. His arms being useless was a retcon.​


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## Mercurial (Dec 20, 2013)

*Ninjutsu: *Itachi
*Genjutsu:* Itachi
*Taijutsu:* Draw
*Fuinjutsu:* Draw
*Speed: * Itachi
*Intelligence:* Itachi
*Range:* Itachi
*Stamina*: Jiraiya
*Durability:* Jiraiya 
*Destructive Capacity: *Jiraiya
_*SM was included*
_
Jiraiya: 3
Itachi:5
Draw: 3

*Ninjutsu: *Itachi
*Genjutsu:* Itachi
*Taijutsu:* Itachi
*Fuinjutsu:* Draw
*Speed: * Itachi
*Intelligence:* Itachi
*Range:* Itachi
*Stamina*: Jiraiya
*Durability:* Jiraiya 
*Destructive Capacity: *Jiraiya
_*SM wasn't included*
_
Jiraiya: 2
Itachi:6
Draw: 3


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## Alex Payne (Dec 20, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi was slowed and got a perfect score in speed. Despite being weakened, Hiruzen maintained his score in taijutsu. That doesn't mean his proficiency in hand to hand combat wasn't lessened.
> 
> It just wasn't mitigated enough. And again, the final stages of AIDs is worse than just being elderly. Both may have been and probably were above certain stat caps before being debilitated.​


 Itachi's illness being worse than Hiruzen's inability to fight properly is pure speculation. Sandaime might have been more weakened.



Strategoob said:


> Lee's taijutsu performance, barring gates, was better against Kimimaro than Gaara. The databook reflects that. Gaara's comment came later on, after Lee intoxicated himself and lost the edge.​


 Kevin-kun, Kevin-kun. Lee himself states that his performance drop was because of Gaara messing him up in CE. So physically weakened Lee canonically performed worser and got +0.5 boost to Tai. Care to explain that using your theory?



Strategoob said:


> Orochimaru's only stats are in DB3, where he used snake bulimia, Rashōman, etc. He clearly maintained his ninjutsu proficiency fairly well. His arms being useless was a retcon.​


 Funny thing is - Orochimaru didn't use any hand-seals in Part 2. Even Rashomon was seal-less. Kishi might've actually planned for that. New body fixed up physical damage but the spiritual lack of arms stopping him from using handseals is plausible.


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## Mercurial (Dec 20, 2013)

Databooks stats are shit for comparison, they're too inconsistent, compared between themselves and with feats that characters actually shown in the manga. Also there's said that they aren't nothing more than hypothesis on characters progress, and that aren't made to be compared.


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## the_symbol_of_rebirth (Dec 20, 2013)

Lol Itachi faster than Jiraiya. Jiraiya blitzed a Pain body who was on guard.


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## babaGAReeb (Dec 20, 2013)

lol databook is a load of bull, jiraya is at least stronger then juubito cause he said so himself so jiraya stomps Itachi and almost everyone even without SM


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## Weapon (Dec 20, 2013)

*Overall*, if each Ninja were in their prime and judging them like that and not sparing them against each other than the ones who would excel in these categories over the other would be. 

*Ninjutsu*: Jiraiya
*Genjutsu*: Itachi
*Taijutsu*: Jiraiya
*Fuinjutsu*: Jiraiya
*Speed*: Itachi
*Intelligence*: Itachi
*Range*: Itachi
*Stamina*: Jiraiya
*Durability*: Jiraiya
*Destructive Capacity*:Jiraiya

Ninjutsu: 4
Ninjutsu: 5
Genjutsu:  5
Genjutsu: 2.5
Taijutsu: 3
Taijutsu: 4
Fuinjutsu: 3
Fuinjutsu: 4
Speed: 4.5
Speed: 4
Intelligence: 5
Intelligence: 3.5
Range: 4.5
Range: 4
Stamina: 4
Stamina: 4
Durability: 3
Durability: 5
Destructive Capacity: 3.5
Destructive Capacity: 4.5

Itachi: 39.5   |   Jiraiya: 40.5​

Although, If they were to fight one on one then Itachi would probably win since his genjutsu prowess on top of his quick thinking in battle would probably take advantage of Jiraiya since they're his main weaknesses. Although I think Jiraiya is stronger outside of this specific matchup overall but not by alot.


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## Shariwin (Dec 20, 2013)

Itachi + KIsame Said they would their shit pushed in by BASE Jiraiya.

I think that means he wins in every criteria, with the exception of genjutsu.


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## Weapon (Dec 20, 2013)

Shariwin said:


> Itachi + KIsame Said they would their shit pushed in by BASE Jiraiya.
> 
> I think that means he wins in every criteria, with the exception of genjutsu.



No way,

Kisame > Jiraiya > Itachi.

1v1s

Itachi > Kisame = Jiraiya

That has to be a troll post


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## Shariwin (Dec 20, 2013)

Weaponess said:


> No way,
> 
> Kisame > Jiraiya > Itachi.
> 
> ...



So you think you know more than the author?  Because it was CLEARLY stated the way I said.  You are trying to argue against manga facts with butthurt dreams.


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## Ghost (Dec 20, 2013)

Hiruzen was also stated to be the God of Shinobi. Recently the title has been given to Hashirama and Hiruzen is nothing but an ant compared to him. There are plenty of retcons in the series.


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## Weapon (Dec 20, 2013)

Shariwin said:


> So you think you know more than the author?  Because it was CLEARLY stated the way I said.



Recalling from a fight isn't them saying we would get wrecked.


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## Shariwin (Dec 20, 2013)

saikyou said:


> Hiruzen was also stated to be the God of Shinobi. Recently the title has been given to Hashirama and Hiruzen is nothing but an ant compared to him. There are plenty of retcons in the series.



So facts you don't like is retcon?
Hiruzen was a god of shinobi in his prime, when the 1st and 2nd were dead.

Also, there could be more than one god at any time as well.  
Kage is like god tier compared to most shinobi.



Weaponess said:


> Recalling from a fight isn't them saying we would get wrecked.



Again, it was clearly stated by the characters that they were no match for him

You are trying to argue against manga facts with *snip*.


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## Chad (Dec 20, 2013)

Manga also states that Juubito would lose to Jiraiya, but is that true? Of course not.

So Shariwin, let this be a lesson for you. Feats > Portrayals


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## Ghost (Dec 20, 2013)

It has nothing to do with whether I like or not. Both Itachi and Kisame are able to defeat Jiraiya on their own. Jiraiya being able to beat them both + back up at the same time is ridiculous.


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## Weapon (Dec 20, 2013)

Shariwin said:


> You are trying to argue against manga facts with butthurt dreams.



Lmao, they are not set in stone facts.

You don't understand the difference between being weaker and withdrawing from a fight because of the situation and setting.


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## Shariwin (Dec 20, 2013)

Weaponess said:


> Lmao, they are not set in stone facts.
> 
> You don't understand the difference between being weaker and withdrawing from a fight because of the situation and setting.



Your right.  Jiraiya was at a massive handicap, as he had to protect naruto. 


They said they were inferior!  
Facts bro... If you don't like them, then that's too bad.

Hell, look at what transpired afterwards. 
If it weren't for Amaterasu, they would have been owned instantly.   Kisame, was simply lucky Itachi was there too! 

Again, facts...


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## Weapon (Dec 20, 2013)

Shariwin said:


> Your right.  Jiraiya was at a massive handicap, as he had to protect naruto.
> 
> 
> They said they were inferior!
> Facts bro... If you don't like them, then that's too bad.



You want facts, Sheer raw overall prime strength:

Kisame > Jiraiya > Uchiha Itachi 

One on one battle:

Uchiha Itachi > Jiraiya 


That *situation*, and those few words they said are meaningless and not facts. 

_Adults can't speak the same language as children_


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## Shariwin (Dec 20, 2013)

Weaponess said:


> You want facts, Sheer raw overall prime strength:
> 
> Kisame > Jiraiya > Uchiha Itachi
> 
> ...




Hell, look at what transpired afterwards.
If it weren't for Amaterasu, they would have been owned instantly. Kisame, was simply lucky Itachi was there too!

Again, facts...not this BS you made up.


You sit there and say Kisame > Jiraiya, yet Jiraiya beat Kisame instantly. 
ROFL!!


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 20, 2013)

Based on feats and portrayal, I severely doubt that Jiraiya could take on Kisame and Itachi together, even _with_ sage mode.

Also, out of curiosity, when was it mentioned that Jiraiya could beat Obito?


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## Weapon (Dec 20, 2013)

If you are honestly laughing at the idea of Kisame > Jiraiya and are in disbelieif at the same time. You should probably stop talking.


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## Weapon (Dec 20, 2013)

Harrison Storm said:


> Based on feats and portrayal, I severely doubt that Jiraiya could take on Kisame and Itachi together, even _with_ sage mode.
> 
> Also, out of curiosity, when was it mentioned that Jiraiya could beat Obito?



It was never mentioned, Obito stated in one of the new chapters that Jiraiya beat him in a fight a long time ago. That doesn't mean Jiraiya is stronger overall, Jiraiya probably played it smart and won fair and square.  

I'd say their fight was a higher end Hidan Vs Shikamaru fight.


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## Shariwin (Dec 20, 2013)

Weaponess said:


> If you are honestly laughing at the idea of Kisame > Jiraiya and are in disbelieif at the same time. You should probably stop talking.



Yet, he already defeated Kisame in 2 seconds....  

I don't get it.  You ignore stated facts, and feats!



Harrison Storm said:


> Based on feats and portrayal, I severely doubt that Jiraiya could take on Kisame and Itachi together, even _with_ sage mode.
> 
> Also, out of curiosity, when was it mentioned that Jiraiya could beat Obito?



You kidding me?  In sage mode, he would rape the shit out of them.


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## the_symbol_of_rebirth (Dec 20, 2013)

saikyou said:


> It has nothing to do with whether I like or not. Both Itachi and Kisame are able to defeat Jiraiya on their own.



Jiraiya would have oneshotted Kisame if Itachi didnt save them. Stop being a Jiraiya hater in all Jiraiya threads you act like he jounin level or something.


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 20, 2013)

I severely doubt Jiraiya could one shot Kisame. He could probably win with medium difficulty, but Kisame isn't just someone Jiraiya could casually take out with one attack, not in the least because Samehada effectively renders a sizable portion of his repertoire useless.


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## Complete_Ownage (Dec 20, 2013)

*Includes Sage Mode
Ninjutsu: Tie
Genjutsu: Itachi
Taijutsu: Jiraiya - superior strength in SM
Fuinjutsu: Have to think about this. Itachi is overlooked in this catergory imo
Speed: Tie
Intelligence: Itachi
Range: Jiraiya
Stamina: Jiraiya
Durability: Jiraiya - Only while in SM
Destructive Capacity: Jiraiya

Jiraiya usually ranks well in the stat catergory simply because he's one of the most well rounded shinobi. Hes practically average or above average in every catergory besides genjutsu and his SM just enchances those states. Itachi may not win in many of the catergories however hes an entire different fighter

Itachi is more refined in his methods


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## Shariwin (Dec 20, 2013)

Harrison Storm said:


> I severely doubt Jiraiya could one shot Kisame. He could probably win with medium difficulty, but Kisame isn't just someone Jiraiya could casually take out with one attack, not in the least because Samehada effectively renders a sizable portion of his repertoire useless.



Yet it already happened...

I mean, WTF!?!?  

This is like saying Germany would have won WW2 without the aid of it's allies.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Dec 20, 2013)

Shariwin said:


> Yet it already happened...
> 
> I mean, WTF!?!?
> 
> This is like saying Germany would have won WW2 without the aid of it's allies.



When did Jiraiya one shot Kisame?


----------



## Mercurial (Dec 20, 2013)

Weaponess said:


> It was never mentioned, Obito stated in one of the new chapters that Jiraiya beat him in a fight a long time ago. That doesn't mean Jiraiya is stronger overall, Jiraiya probably played it smart and won fair and square.
> 
> I'd say their fight was a higher end Hidan Vs Shikamaru fight.



Wat

Juubito simply says that he lost to Jiraiya's (Minato and Naruto's sensei) beliefs, so metaphorically it was like he lost to Jiraiya. In a fight, Jiraiya wouldn't have one chance in a billion to defeat Obito, let alone Juubito.


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## Trojan (Dec 20, 2013)

Ninjutsu:Jiraiya
Genjutsu: itachi/ Jiraiya in SM. (Frog Song)
Taijutsu: Jiraiya
Fuinjutsu: tie 
Speed: itach/ with SM Jiraiya
Intelligence: itachi supposedly 
Range: Jiraiya
Stamina:Jiraiya
Durability:Jiraiya
Destructive Capacity:Jiraiya 

Jiraiya: 7/9
itachi: 3/1
tie: 1


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Dec 20, 2013)

Which jutsu does Jiraiya have that has superior range to Itachi's _yasaka no magatama_?


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## Trojan (Dec 20, 2013)

Harrison Storm said:


> When did Jiraiya one shot Kisame?



retcon

The only reason Kisame escaped was because of itachi and his Amatersu.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Dec 20, 2013)

Elia said:


> retcon
> 
> The only reason Kisame escaped was because of itachi and his Amatersu.



That's honestly a pretty situational jutsu and I doubt it would see much use in a real combat situation.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 20, 2013)

Harrison Storm said:


> Which jutsu does Jiraiya have that has superior range to Itachi's _yasaka no magatama_?











How is having 1 long rang jutsu make you better than having 7 is beyond me.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 20, 2013)

*Ninjutsu:* Itachi by far. Susano'o and Amaterasu are beyond anything in Jman's arsenal.
*Genjutsu:* Itachi by far. Tsukiyomi, Izanami, and casual application of other types of genjutsu put him above anyone else imo. Koto is just icing on the cake.
*Taijutsu: *Itachi but the gap shouldn't be big. With weapons accounted however, gap becomes pretty significant.
*Fuinjutsu:* Itachi by far. Tensha Fuuin Amaterasu : Crow Koto trap are pretty advanced shit. 
*Speed:* Itachi, pretty significantly I'd say.
*Intelligence:* Itachi by far.
*Range:* I'd say Jiriaya with Gamabunta oil/katon combo. 
*Stamina: *Jiraiya by far
*Durability:* It should be Jiraiya even in base. 
*Destructive Capacity:* Itachi via Amaterasu. But I'd say this area is neithers forte.



alex payne said:


> Itachi's illness being worse than Hiruzen's inability to fight properly is pure speculation. Sandaime might have been more weakened.



lolwut 

The only time Hiruzen's old age was emphasized was when the anbu dude & Oro talked about his declining stamina levels.

Itachi's was basically in his deathbed. Stated and shown through different sources.

They aren't even comparable.


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Dec 20, 2013)

Ninjutsu: In base, Jiraiya. He has more diverse Ninjutsu. But MS and SM counted, Itachi takes it because of Susano'o. Susano'o is more broken than any Ninjutsu Jiraiya has. 

Genjutsu: Itachi, no question.

Taijutsu: Tie. Jiraiya does not have Frog Katas, and Itachi's Sharingan makes up for any SM advantage.

Fuinjutsu: Totsuka blitz

Speed: Itachi

Intelligence: Itachi, but both are very intelligent.

Range: Jiraiya, no question.

Stamina: Jiraiya, no question.

Durability: Normally, Jiraiya. But Susano'o makes Itachi more durable.

Destructive Capacity: Technically, Jiraiya's Senpo Chou Odama Rasengan has more DC than anything Itachi has, because Itachi's attacks are more dangerous than AoE effective.

Itachi: 6.5/10
Jiraiya: 3.5/10


----------



## Alex Payne (Dec 20, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> lolwut
> 
> The only time Hiruzen's old age was emphasized was when the anbu dude & Oro talked about his declining stamina levels.
> 
> ...


Sarutobi struggles with simply wielding Enma, unable to react to Mokuton by himself. Itachi didn't show any drops of performance before Tsukuyomi side-effects, only then Zetsu noticed the difference. Young/Prime body with illness under a shitload of drugs and medicine(this part is often overlooked) vs very old guy who struggles with using basic moves. Look comparable to me.


----------



## Shariwin (Dec 20, 2013)

Harrison Storm said:


> When did Jiraiya one shot Kisame?



Do you not remember?  Surely you remember, so you must be trying to argue it didn't happen.  Then, please explain to me how he was going to escape?  Rhetorical question, he wasn't.



Elia said:


> Ninjutsu:Jiraiya
> Genjutsu: itachi/ Jiraiya in SM. (Frog Song)
> Taijutsu: Jiraiya
> Fuinjutsu: tie
> ...



Speed goes to Jiraiya in SM easily.  
Even if we are talking base Jiraiya, the only area Itachi wins is genjutsu.  In sage mode, he is insanely ahead in every area, and at least even in genjutsu with frog song.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 20, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Sarutobi struggles with simply wielding Enma, unable to react to Mokuton by himself. Itachi didn't show any drops of performance before Tsukuyomi side-effects, only then Zetsu noticed the difference. Young/Prime body with illness under a shitload of drugs and medicine(this part is often overlooked) vs very old guy who struggles with using basic moves. Look comparable to me.



He found it heavy yet his performance with it wasn't hindered.
And he couldn't react to Mokuton because his guard was down. Most likely had to do with Orochimaru showing him that he possessed a young girls body.
Sarutobi was visibly surprised and taken off guard.

Itachi on the other hand was visibly performing bad. Zetsu said he couldn't dodge attacks he easily could and Itachi fell on his knees and started coughing blood @ some point.
Tobi said he used medicine to keep himself standing.

Sarutobi's declination was never stated to be that heavy.


----------



## Miyamoto Musashi (Dec 20, 2013)

Weaponess said:


> No way,
> 
> Kisame > Jiraiya > Itachi.
> 
> ...



Um...Kisame isn't stronger than Jiraiya or Itachi.


----------



## Nikushimi (Dec 20, 2013)

Ninjutsu: They both have a 5 in the databooks, but Susano'o and Amaterasu are better than anything in Jiraiya's arsenal. *Itachi* has this one.

Genjutsu: In terms of offense, it's impossible to draw a conclusive comparison between Gamarinshou, Tsukuyomi, and Izanami. However, given Itachi's greater versatility with Genjutsu, the fact that he is an actual user of it (as opposed to relying on summons), the much greater ease with which he can cast it, and his natural defense against it, it's definitely a bigger part of his character. *Itachi* has this as well.

Taijutsu: We didn't see much Taijutsu from Jiraiya, so Itachi has the better feats. The databooks give them both a 4.5. I'll give J-man the benefit of the doubt and call this a *tie*, but I'm leaning towards Itachi due to an all-around better performance in the manga.

Fuinjutsu: They don't use comparable seals; Jiraiya's have more to do with chakra control whereas Itachi can implant his Doujutsu in other people. Itachi also has a weapon that can seal targets away, but I'm hesitant to attribute that to his own skill since it's an attribute of the weapon. For lack of a better way to compare them, I'll just settle for calling this a *tie*.

Speed: The databooks give Itachi a 5 and Jiraiya a 4.5; in Sage Mode, it may be a different case, but taking into account Itachi's reaction time and Jutsu execution, I say *Itachi* still has this.

Intelligence: The databooks again give Itachi a superior score (5 vs. 4.5), and his performance/portrayal in the manga backs this up readily; it has to be *Itachi*.

Range: Range of what? If we're taking everything into account, then Itachi's Genjutsu control works at a greater distance than anything in Jiraiya's arsenal; the problem lies in managing to cast it, which must be done up-close. Given Jiraiya's relative abundance of Jutsu that operate at mid to long ranges, I have to say *Jiraiya* takes this. 

Stamina: *Jiraiya*. Do I even need to explain this one?

Durability: *Jiraiya* takes this with Sage Mode, and possibly base form as well.

Destructive Capacity: Thanks to Amaterasu, *Itachi* takes this.


----------



## Nikushimi (Dec 20, 2013)

Shariwin said:


> Do you not remember?  Surely you remember, so you must be trying to argue it didn't happen.  Then, please explain to me how he was going to escape?  Rhetorical question, he wasn't.



Kisame could've flooded the building with Daibaku Suishouha and ripped the whole thing apart.



> Speed goes to Jiraiya in SM easily.



Based on...?



> Even if we are talking base Jiraiya, the only area Itachi wins is genjutsu.



Itachi is smarter and faster than Jiraiya as well. His Ninjutsu are arguably better than Jiraiya's and his destructive capacity (thanks to Amaterasu's spreading) is both more potent and covers a greater area than Jiraiya can.



> In sage mode, he is insanely ahead in every area, and at least even in genjutsu with frog song.



Gamarinshou is not Jiraiya's Genjutsu; it is a Genjutsu he has access to because his summons can use it.

This is the same problem you run into when saying that the Totsuka no Tsurugi's sealing power reflects Itachi's skill with Fuinjutsu. That's not the case.

Jiraiya is terrible with Genjutsu and he admitted this himself.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 20, 2013)

> =Nikushimi;49288412]Ninjutsu: They both have a 5 in the databooks, but Susano'o and Amaterasu are better than anything in Jiraiya's arsenal. *Itachi* has this one.



Having strong nenjutsu, does not make you better. (Even though Jman has stronger already)
Itachi has 12 Nin. Jman has around 26.  


> Genjutsu: In terms of offense, it's impossible to draw a conclusive comparison between Gamarinshou, Tsukuyomi, and Izanami. However, given Itachi's greater versatility with Genjutsu, the fact that he is an actual user of it (as opposed to relying on summons), the much greater ease with which he can cast it, and his natural defense against it, it's definitely a bigger part of his character. *Itachi* has this as well.



So, why did not you make Jman greater because in SM he has access to Frog Song
which is stronger than all itachi's genjutsu?  


> Taijutsu: We didn't see much Taijutsu from Jiraiya, so Itachi has the better feats. The databooks give them both a 4.5. I'll give J-man the benefit of the doubt and call this a *tie*, but I'm leaning towards Itachi due to an all-around better performance in the manga.



Jman kicked Pain's path sending them flying, one of their summons were blowing off.  


> Fuinjutsu: They don't use comparable seals; Jiraiya's have more to do with chakra control whereas Itachi can implant his Doujutsu in other people. Itachi also has a weapon that can seal targets away, but I'm hesitant to attribute that to his own skill since it's an attribute of the weapon. For lack of a better way to compare them, I'll just settle for calling this a *tie*.



Jman has more sealing jutsus than itachi.  
He unsealed Oro's seal placed on Naruto. He gave the sealing tag to kakashi to suppress
Naruto's Kurama's chakra. He also sealed the Amatersu, and he showed a lot of knowledge in
that department as well when he talked about Minato's seals on Naruto. 


> Speed: The databooks give Itachi a 5 and Jiraiya a 4.5; in Sage Mode, it may be a different case, but taking into account Itachi's reaction time and Jutsu execution, I say *Itachi* still has this.


In base I agree, itachi is faster. But not with SM. 


> Intelligence: The databooks again give Itachi a superior score (5 vs. 4.5), and his performance/portrayal in the manga backs this up readily; it has to be *Itachi*.


true. 


> Range: Range of what? If we're taking everything into account, then Itachi's Genjutsu control works at a greater distance than anything in Jiraiya's arsenal; the problem lies in managing to cast it, which must be done up-close. Given Jiraiya's relative abundance of Jutsu that operate at mid to long ranges, I have to say *Jiraiya* takes this.


 
but I agree with the conclusion. 



> Destructive Capacity: Thanks to Amaterasu, *Itachi* takes this.


 
huh, what?


----------



## Ghost (Dec 20, 2013)

the_symbol_of_rebirth said:


> Jiraiya would have oneshotted Kisame if Itachi didnt save them. Stop being a Jiraiya hater in all Jiraiya threads you act like he jounin level or something.



Shoot yourself.


----------



## Nikushimi (Dec 20, 2013)

Elia said:


> Having strong nenjutsu, does not make you better. (Even though Jman has stronger already)
> Itachi has 12 Nin. Jman has around 26.



Quality>quantity.

Susano'o and Amaterasu beat everything in Jiraiya's arsenal.



> So, why did not you make Jman greater because in SM he has access to Frog Song



Same reason I didn't give Itachi better Fuinjutsu because of Totsuka--those aren't their skills, but merely powers they have access to.



> which is stronger than all itachi's genjutsu?



If you actually read my post, you'd see that I disagree with that.



> Jman kicked Pain's path sending them flying, one of their summons were blowing off.



I wasn't taking physical strength into account; I treated Taijutsu as a pure-skill category.



> Jman has more sealing jutsus than itachi.
> He unsealed Oro's seal placed on Naruto. He gave the sealing tag to kakashi to suppress
> Naruto's Kurama's chakra. He also sealed the Amatersu, and he showed a lot of knowledge in
> that department as well when he talked about Minato's seals on Naruto.



And Itachi can seal his Doujutsu in people and seal crows with programmed Genjutsu in people; they both have cool magic tricks, but that's all they really amount to. There's no way to compare them, so I just call it a tie. 



> In base I agree, itachi is faster. But not with SM.



I already said that. But I also took into account reaction time and Jutsu execution, which cause me to lean toward Itachi.



> but I agree with the conclusion.



What's the problem?



> huh, what?



them


----------



## Trojan (Dec 20, 2013)

> =Nikushimi;49288803]Quality>quantity.
> Susano'o and Amaterasu beat everything in Jiraiya's arsenal.



Yami Nami > itachi's susanoo.
kawarimi > Amatersu. 



> Same reason I didn't give Itachi better Fuinjutsu because of Totsuka--those aren't their skills, but merely powers they have access to.


Well, it's still consider from their arsenal, no?  


> I wasn't taking physical strength into account; I treated Taijutsu as a pure-skill category.



Ok, then in this case it's tie as in the DB3. 


> And Itachi can seal his Doujutsu in people and seal crows with programmed Genjutsu in people; they both have cool magic tricks, but that's all they really amount to. There's no way to compare them, so I just call it a tie.


- Seal his Doijutsu?  
do you mean like the Amatersu he placed in Sasuke's eyes? 
it's a sealing for the jutsu itself (the Amatersu) not his eyes! 


> I already said that. But I also took into account reaction time and Jutsu execution, which cause me to lean toward Itachi.


Jman was fighting against 6 paths at the same time, defend and attack and collect information. I don't recall any reaction feats from itachi that is better than this. 

Maybe, itachi's fans will bring Naruto & B, but the different is Pain was fighting with the intent to
kill, unlike Naruto and B. 


> What's the problem?


Nothing, I just found it a little confusing! Also, I don't think this was a fair thing





> Itachi's Genjutsu control works at a greater distance than anything in Jiraiya's arsenal





> Link removed


That was in a forest, Jman or any fair jutsu user can use a small amount of fire to burn a tree
and the fire will grow bigger eventually. But, what if they were in a desert or a place where there
is no tree ...etc?


----------



## Ghost (Dec 20, 2013)

But who was no tree?


----------



## Nikushimi (Dec 20, 2013)

Elia said:


> Yami Nami > itachi's susanoo.





Jiraiya is not capable of summoning such a beast.

Itachi would seal it with the Totsuka, anyway.



> kawarimi > Amatersu.



No.



> Well, it's still consider from their arsenal, no?



That doesn't mean it reflects in their personal stats. 



> Ok, then in this case it's tie as in the DB3.



The databooks give very broad ranges, since it only has 10 tiers (in increments of .5). But I did give them a tie anyway, so...



> - Seal his Doijutsu?
> do you mean like the Amatersu he placed in Sasuke's eyes?
> it's a sealing for the jutsu itself (the Amatersu) not his eyes!



Amaterasu is one of Itachi's Doujutsu.



> Jman was fighting against 6 paths at the same time, defend and attack and collect information. I don't recall any reaction feats from itachi that is better than this.



Kirin and Muki Tensei.



> Maybe, itachi's fans will bring Naruto & B, but the different is Pain was fighting with the intent to
> kill, unlike Naruto and B.



They were physically incapable of killing an Edo Tensei, but that doesn't mean they held back. B even tried to get Itachi from behind. 



> Nothing, I just found it a little confusing! Also, I don't think this was a fair thing



But it's true; Itachi's Genjutsu controls people even outside the range of chakra sensors, which we've seen can detect chakra (at least in Naruto's and Nagato's cases) from miles away.



> That was in a forest, Jman or any fair jutsu user can use a small amount of fire to burn a tree
> and the fire will grow bigger eventually. But, what if they were in a desert or a place where there
> is no tree ...etc?



Link removed

Amaterasu burns anywhere, even on solid rock and dirt.

And it's more dangerous than normal fire, too.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Dec 20, 2013)

Ninjutsu: Draw
Genjutsu: Itachi
Taijutsu: Itachi
Fuinjutsu: Jiriyia
Speed: Itachi
Intelligence: Itachi
Range: Itachi
Stamina: Jiriyia
Durability: Jiriyia
Destructive Capacity:Jiriyia

Itachi 5 Jiriyia 4 1 Draw


----------



## Lord Aizen (Dec 20, 2013)

Ninjutsu:itachi
Genjutsu:itachi
Taijutsu:itachi
Fuinjutsu:jiraiya
Speed:itachi
Intelligence:itachi
Range:itachi
Stamina:jiraiya
Durability:jiraiya
Destructive Capacity:jiraiya

Itachi wins


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 20, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Itachi's illness being worse than Hiruzen's inability to fight properly is pure speculation. Sandaime might have been more weakened.



No. It's common sense for anybody that has known a healthy 70 year old and someone about to keel from disease. Itachi was described as being severely injured from his usual self, and had been coughing up blood through the entire fight. 

Hiruzen was described as being old and having his chakra decreased to the point where he had to be conservative with clones and that his staff was heavier than it used to be.

Surely, you can see how those two aren't even in the same league, and how that Hiruzen's stamina and strength proficiency at 3.0 had likely declined from his prime. Itachi, beiing in _much worse_ condition, would suffer a steeper decline in physical categories.​


alex payne said:


> Kevin-kun, Kevin-kun. Lee himself states that his performance drop was because of Gaara messing him up in CE. So physically weakened Lee canonically performed worser and got +0.5 boost to Tai. Care to explain that using your theory?



Gaara was likely talking about the lotus, and probably didn't see drunk Lee landing hits on a taijutsu user near Gai's level. And Gai was the dude who flashed down and swatted Gaara's sand away.​


alex payne said:


> Funny thing is - Orochimaru didn't use any hand-seals in Part 2. Even Rashomon was seal-less. Kishi might've actually planned for that. New body fixed up physical damage but the spiritual lack of arms stopping him from using handseals is plausible.



Given that he maintained 5/5 proficiency, it's more likely a retcon. Otherwise, that proficiency wouldn't be there. We know he used his "useless" arms and high-level ninjutsu plenty, and we know the author frequently skips seals being used for the sake of brevity.​


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## Nikushimi (Dec 20, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Given that he maintained 5/5 proficiency, it's more likely a retcon. Otherwise, that proficiency wouldn't be there.​



It likely just means that Oro kept the skill/knowledge (i.e., "proficiency") but simply lost the physical ability to do it.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 20, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> It likely just means that Oro kept the skill/knowledge (i.e., "proficiency") but simply lost the physical ability to do it.



Proficiency or skill _*is*_ the physical ability to do it.

If a master pianist has his arms cut off, guess what? 

He has no skill in piano. He did once. But not now.

The difference between skill and knowledge is _*action.*_


----------



## Octavian (Dec 20, 2013)

do i sense discord within the itachi fanbase?  have you all accepted that minato solos?


----------



## Turrin (Dec 20, 2013)

Ninjutsu: Jiraiya - J-man I believe still has the largest Jutsu pool to date. Itachi has hax' techs, but how much that is really a reflection of his Ninjutsu skill is pretty debatable. However J-man also has hax in the form of Senjutsu Techs & SM anyway, which I don't think is any less hax than Itachi's MS Ninjutsu techniques, considering Itachi's MS techs have more drawbacks.

Genjutsu: Itachi - goes w/o saying

Taijutsu: J-man - the ability to augment his Taijutsu w/ Senjutsu puts him a bit ahead of Itachi here

Fuinjutsu: Undecided - I guess this comes down to whether we count magical sword that seems to have just been given to Itachi, as Fuuinjutsu skill, if we do than Itachi & if not than J-man.

Speed: Itachi - DB stats demonstrate this well enough

Intelligence: Itachi - DB stats demonstrate this well enough

Range: Jiraiya - All Itachi really has is Magatama, which is fine, but nowhere near the level of Water Gun Shot + Gamma Yu Endan, Yomi Numa, etc...

Stamina: Jiraiya - goes w/o saying

Durability: Jiraiya - dude willed himself back to life, the other one is terminally ill, come on now

Destructive Capacity: Jiraiya -  Withh Boss Toads, Water Gun Shot, Gamma Yu Endan, Yomi Numa, J-man's AOE ability is far beyond that of Itachi's.

Jiraiya - 6
Itachi - 3
Undecided - 1


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## Sadgoob (Dec 20, 2013)

Octavian said:


> do i sense discord within the itachi fanbase?  have you all accepted that minato solos?



I'm more confident than ever that Itachi > Minato in life. 

Super Minato looks derpier every week while the case for Edos being weaker and Black Zetsu knowing his shit (invincible Itachi hype) grows stronger with every chapter.​


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## Lord Aizen (Dec 20, 2013)

Octavian said:


> do i sense discord within the itachi fanbase?  have you all accepted that minato solos?



Minato and itachi tie that debate is long over


----------



## Shariwin (Dec 20, 2013)

saikyou said:


> Shoot yourself.



Wow, someone is an angry troll.


----------



## Nikushimi (Dec 20, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Proficiency or skill _*is*_ the physical ability to do it.
> 
> If a master pianist has his arms cut off, guess what?
> 
> ...



A master pianist would still know how to play the piano and would still be able to do it if given prosthesis with a precise enough level of control to mimic his original limbs.

The difference between skill and knowledge is a semantic one that may or may not even arise in the original Japanese description.



Octavian said:


> do i sense discord within the itachi fanbase?  have you all accepted that minato solos?



Just wait 'til Bijuu Mode Itachi happens.

And it _will_ happen.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 20, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> A master pianist would still *know* how to play the piano and would still be able to do it if given prosthesis with a precise enough level of control to mimic his original limbs.



Bolded the word. Know. Know ledge. Not skill. Not proficiency. Knowledge is knowing the path. Skill is walking the path.



Nikushimi said:


> The difference between skill and knowledge is a semantic one that may or may not even arise in the original Japanese description.



Regardless, Sakura is a bookwork and the most knowledgeable of the part one Genin, but her stats don't reflect that, do they?



Nikushimi said:


> Just wait 'til Bijuu Mode Itachi happens.


----------



## Nikushimi (Dec 20, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Bolded the word. Know. Know ledge. Not skill. Not proficiency. Knowledge is knowing the path. Skill is walking the path.



I didn't want to have to do this, Strat, but you forced my hand:

pro?fi?cien?cy
noun \prə-ˈfi-shən(t)-sē\
Definition of PROFICIENCY
1
:  advancement in *knowledge or skill* :  progress
2
:  the quality or state of being proficient 





> Regardless, Sakura is a bookwork and the most knowledgeable of the part one Genin, but her stats don't reflect that, do they?



That's book knowledge, not practical knowledge; we're talking about what Oro knows how to do, not what he has researched through secondhand source material.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 20, 2013)

It can be listed as knowledge or skill because some tasks don't have to do with physical skill or talent e.g. medical diagnosticians requires mostly knowledge. Surgeons require mostly skill.

You're not proficient in surgery or hand to hand combat if you're quadriplegic, even if you were once the best in the world. Let's go ask an ex-surgeon who had his hands shattered about how proficient a surgeon he is these days. He's a doctor so he'll probably know what the goddamn word means, right?​


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## Nikushimi (Dec 20, 2013)

Orochimaru had the physical, practical skill with hand-seals, as well as the knowledge. What he lacked was merely the physical ability to demonstrate that skill, and--as we know now--it was only a temporary affliction. That proficiency didn't simply go away, and now Oro is back to being able to form all the hand-seals he wants.

I might add that Orochimaru didn't necessarily lose the ability to form hand-seals--just the ability to mold chakra and cast Jutsu with them. Based on his performance during the post-timeskip Sasuke Retrieval arc, he appeared able to move his hands freely. Not having "arm souls" may have been the Ninjutsu equivalent of a vasectomy for him: the form is still there, but not the function.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 20, 2013)

Yes. If he could not use hand seals, then the proficiency went away *because he could not use hand seals*. Let's look up some antonyms of proficiency, shall we? 

Hmm. I see incapability, inability, inefficiency, etc. Therefore, Orochimaru was the exact opposite of proficient if he was incapabable, unable, or inefficient with hand seals at that time.

Next, since it seemed to have to come to this, here's the definitoon of proficient: "competent or skilled in *doing* or using something." I bolded the key word, and notice the tense.​


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## Bardtard (Sep 30, 2019)

Sadgoob said:


> I'll talk about base Itachi and base Jiraiya.
> 
> *Ninjutsu: Tie*
> 
> ...





Sadgoob said:


> Adding databook scores together is incorrect. Asuma is not better than Kazekage Gaara, for instance. It simply measures ninja proficiency and knowledge in the areas, not jutsu or forms.
> 
> What the databook stats show are Itachi being better at everything, except scores like strength, stamina, and hand to hand combat that his "severely injured" sick state would clearly affect negatively.
> 
> ...


I don't agree with you saying that Jiraiya is a buffoon during battle , he is a buffoon all the time but not in battle

He knew about the shared vision of the pains , was great at gathering information , knew what was wrong with naruto's seal , wrote a coded message so that only Naruto would be able to read it.
He is nowhere near Itachi but far from a buffoon.

Agree with everything else you said.


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## The_Conqueror (Sep 30, 2019)

Bardtard said:


> I don't agree with you saying that Jiraiya is a buffoon during battle , he is a buffoon all the time but not in battle
> 
> He knew about the shared vision of the pains , was great at gathering information , knew what was wrong with naruto's seal , wrote a coded message so that only Naruto would be able to read it.
> He is nowhere near Itachi but far from a buffoon.
> ...


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## Trojan (Sep 30, 2019)

*Ninjutsu: *Jiraiya
*Genjutsu:* Itachi
*Taijutsu:* Jiraiya
*Fuinjutsu:* itachi
*Speed: *Jiraiya
*Intelligence:* same (although based on the databook, it's itachi)
*Range:* Jiraiya
*Stamina*: Jiraiya
*Durability:* Jiraiya
*Destructive Capacity: *Jiraiya

Reactions: Like 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Sep 30, 2019)

Chad said:


> Ninjutsu: Genjutsu: Taijutsu: Fuinjutsu: Speed: Intelligence: Range: Stamina: Durability: Destructive Capacity:


Ninjutsu: Difficult to determine, Jiraiya has more ninjutsu than Itachi but Itachi's ninjutsu are more powerful. So I say they even out.
Genjutsu: Itachi - Itachi has Sharingan genjutsu and Tsukuyomi.
Taijutsu: Jiraiya - Jiraiya has Frog Kata in SM.
Fuinjutsu: Itachi - Totsuka Blade seals away anything it pierces.
Speed: Jiraiya - He's demonstrated speed capable of blitzing the Paths three times.
Intelligence: Itachi - I don't really think this needs an explanation.
Range: Jiraiya - Things like Toad Oil Flame Bullet have greater range than anything in Itachi's arsenal.
Stamina: Jiraiya - Jiraiya already has larger reserves and while he's in SM he doesn't tire.
Durability: Itachi - Due to Susanoo and the Yata Mirror, his durability is far beyond Jiraiya's.
Destructive Capacity: Jiraiya - Due to his large and diverse arsenal, he can deal more damage on a larger scale than Itachi.

Reactions: Like 1


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## J★J♥ (Sep 30, 2019)

Ninjutsu: Jiraiya
Genjutsu: Jiraya
Taijutsu: Jiraiya
Fuinjutsu: Jiraya
Speed: Jiaraya
Intelligence: Jiraya. Itachis intelligence stat is in negatives what kind of dumbass kills his whole family because of "reasons" that turn out to be bullshit and then tortures his only surviving relative into hating him for killing his family to make him protect Konoha ? which then turns that said relative against Konoha and sends him on destructive crusade until MC beats him to submission like a dog.
and it takes a special kind of stupid to consider someone like that "intelligent"
Range: Jiraya
Stamina: Jiraiya
Durability: Jiraiya
Destructive Capacity: Jiraiya


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## narut0ninjafan (Sep 30, 2019)

Ninjutsu: Jiraiya
Genjutsu: Itachi
Taijutsu: Jiraiya
Fuinjutsu: Itachi
Speed: Jiraiya
Intelligence: Itachi
Range: Jiraiya
Stamina: Jiraiya
Durability: Jiraiya
Destructive Capacity: Jiraiya


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## Kisame (Sep 30, 2019)

Ninjutsu: Itachi.
His Susano'o is better than Jiraiya's arsenal, especially with the Yata and Totsuka.

Genjutsu: Itachi.
Frog Song isn't better than Tsukiyomi, and there's Izanami as well.

Taijutsu: they're equal in skill, in overall cqc level it would be SM Jiraiya > Itachi >= Base Jiraiya.

Fuinjutsu: Itachi if we include Totsuka, if not then Itachi has no in-battle fuinjutsu whereas Jiraiya has some sealing knowledge and that seal he used to undo Orochimaru's seal. Itachi could set lethal traps with fuinjutsu however.

Speed: Itachi >= SM Jiraiya > Base Jiraiya. Jiraiya might have greater burst/lunging speed but Itachi's speed is more dangerous in CQC.

Intelligence: even if we're including Fukasaku and Shima, Itachi has the edge.

Range: Jiraiya easily, even in base he has more aoe than Itachi.

Stamina: Jiraiya by far.

Durability: Jiraiya is more durable, likely even in base. If we're including their abilities Susano'o with the Yata Mirror trumps Jiraiya's defenses.

Destructive Capacity: Itachi has more effective firepower against durable shinobi, but Jiraiya can destroy more quantity of shinobi.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zero890 (Sep 30, 2019)

Ninjutsu: Jiraiya has more versatility but Itachi has more powerful Jutsus with Amaterasu and Susano'o, Jiraiya also has powerful Jutsus (Yomi Numa, COR, Gamayu Endan etc.) But in general Itachi's are more powerful. So i'd say tie.

Genjutsu: Itachi has more mastery and versatility, Frog Song seems to me more powerful than Tsukuyomi but Itachi take this.

Taijutsu: SM Jiraiya with Frog Kata (sensing), and more strenght and attack speed (even Pain can't make hand seals) take this.

Fuinjutsu: Itachi has the strongest Fuinjutsu beetwen the two but Jiraiya has more knowledge in the area. Just for Totsuka Itachi take this.

Intelligence: Itachi.

Range: Jiraiya (massive AoE Jutsus).

Stamina: Jiraiya.

Durability: Jiraiya. 

Destructive capacity: Jiraiya.


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## Nikushimi (Sep 30, 2019)

Chad said:


> Fill out this form.
> 
> Ninjutsu:
> Genjutsu:
> ...



These terms should have a more specific definition so people aren't rating them under different assumptions.  For example, are we talking about raw Ninjutsu power?  Skill at performing/using Ninjutsu?  The quality of their move sets?  Some combination of factors?  These are all different aspects of the same stat.  Does Taijutsu include physical strength, or is it pure skill?  Are we measuring Genjutsu by proficiency, raw power, or efficacy?

I'm going to break these down into sub-categories, where appropriate...

Ninjutsu:
+Raw Skill: Could be either or a tie
+Raw Power: Pound-for-pound median Jutsu strength, Jiraiya
+Better Moves: Itachi
+Most Diverse: Jiraiya
Genjutsu:
+Raw Skill: Itachi
+Raw Power: Tough to measure; it's basically Gamarinsho (which is not technically Jiraiya's) vs. Tsukuyomi, so I'm gonna assume Itachi
+Better Moves: Itachi
+Most Diverse: Itachi
Taijutsu:
+Raw Skill: Itachi
+Raw Power: Jiraiya
+Better Moves: N/A
+Most Diverse: Itachi
Fuinjutsu:
+Raw Skill: Jiraiya
+Raw Power: Tough to measure but I'd guess Jiraiya
+Better Moves: Jiraiya
+Most Diverse: Jiraiya
Speed: Itachi, but in Sage Mode it's competitive
Intelligence: Itachi
Range: Jiraiya, treating this as effective combat range
Stamina: Jiraiya
Durability: Jiraiya
Destructive Capacity: Difficult to measure, about the same in terms of area; pound-for-pound median Jutsu strength goes to Jiraiya; outlier destructive capability goes to Itachi (via Amaterasu)


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## wooly Eullerex (Sep 30, 2019)

wooly Eullerex said:


> Ninjutsu: Tie
> Genjutsu: Itachi
> Taijutsu: /
> Fuinjutsu: Jiraiya
> ...


_*wth hell did i mean by '' / ''?!

*_


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## Kisame (Sep 30, 2019)

wooly Eullerex said:


> _*wth hell did i mean by '' / ''?!
> 
> *_


I'd guess you meant that those aren't real stats and are "plot/narrative devices".


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## Nikushimi (Oct 1, 2019)

Just realized this thread is an Edo Tensei.



Hussain said:


> Yami Nami > itachi's susanoo.





Nikushimi said:


> Jiraiya is not capable of summoning such a beast.
> 
> Itachi would seal it with the Totsuka, anyway.



I forgot I ever made this and I'm dying laughing right now.


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