# Luffy vs Marco



## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

Considering there are still people who think Marco and especially Jozu and Vista are Admiral level I think this thread is in order.  

Who wins between the Current Luffy and Marco?

@Shunsuiju @YonkoDrippy @VileNotice @Ren. @Beast 

Putting up a poll 

Going to give my opinion, Luffy smashes his ass high diff

Let’s discuss

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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Going to give my opinion, Luffy smashes his ass high diff


Can you explain how the fight would play out?


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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Can you explain how the fight would play out?


Sure

Luffy hits Marco, smacks his ass back Garp style with his CoA that can hurt Kaido so no reason to believe he can’t do it. Marco heals but Luffy keeps the offensive, eventually wearing out his regen with his great offensive power after a long drawn out battle.

Marcos offensive fails to put down Luffy just like Kata couldn’t and Luffy has no problem reacting with FS to most of Marcos attacks.

High diff win for Luffy.

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## Bobybobster (Jan 15, 2021)

it's a battle of marcos regen vs luffy's haki, which will run out first. 
Extreme diff either way.


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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> it's a battle of marcos regen vs luffy's haki, which will run out first.
> Extreme diff either way.


Marcos offensive isn’t putting down Luffy I guarantee it.

Luffy can run out fo Haki and still not be put down by anything in Marcos arsenal.

Luffy also partially took a TB and kept going just fine, Marco may think his regen is going to get over on Luffy but little does he know Luffy in his own right is an endurance monster.

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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Sure
> 
> Luffy hits Marco, smacks his ass back Garp style with his CoA that can hurt Kaido so no reason to believe he can’t do it. Marco heals but Luffy keeps the offensive, eventually wearing out his regen with his great offensive power after a long drawn out battle.
> 
> ...


Marco clashed equally with Kizaru and Big Mom. He is going to have Luffy close to KO with hits UNLIKE Katakuri.

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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Marco clashed equally with Kizaru and Big Mom. He is going to have Luffy close to KO with hits UNLIKE Katakuri.


Clashing with Top Tiers for a few seconds isn’t shit dude.

This is some really garbage ass logic, with this stupid ass logic I might as well be putting Jozu
and Vista above as well.

And Luffy can definitely hold his own with either right now as he is, Luffy got hit by TB and got right back up,  none of them got shit on that.

Luffy is absolutely NOT getting stomped by any Top Tiers anymore.

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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Clashing with Top Tiers for a few seconds isn’t shit dude.


He fought Big Mom for more than a few seconds. They were going back and forth and she wasn't unserious. He blew back Kizaru so we can come  to the conclusion he's at least in his ballpark. These two people can wreck Luffy, no reason Marco wouldn't wreck Luffy.

If  you're talking about Luffy at the end of this arc, then he probably wins.

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## VileNotice (Jan 15, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> He fought Big Mom for more than a few seconds. They were going back and forth and she wasn't unserious. He blew back Kizaru so we can come  to the conclusion he's at least in his ballpark. These two people can wreck Luffy, no reason Marco wouldn't wreck Luffy.
> 
> If  you're talking about Luffy at the end of this arc, then he probably wins.


Did you read the latest chapter? If not spoiler alert

*Spoiler*: __ 




Luffy was able to partially avoid a Thunder Bagua in base and take minimal damage from the part that hit him. An attack that dropped him in G4 before. Yonko aren’t wrecking him anymore.

Of course Yonko aren’t one-shotting Marco either but Marco doesn’t have Luffy level offense until shown. All the stuff he showed against admirals Luffy could have replicated in Dressrosa (he pushed Fuji in G3, he could easily launch a logia admiral with G4). Marco’s best offensive feat so far imo is restraining King and Queen at the same time, but we have yet to see how that plays out.

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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> He fought Big Mom for more than a few seconds. They were going back and forth and she wasn't unserious. He blew back Kizaru so we can come  to the conclusion he's at least in his ballpark. These two people can wreck Luffy, no reason Marco wouldn't wreck Luffy.
> 
> If  you're talking about Luffy at the end of this arc, then he probably wins.


Fuck no, he clashed with her with an Advantage against Prometheus and then proceeded to get his ass choked like a chicken about to get his head cut off.

Kizaru isn’t getting choked casually like that against BM.

Marco hasn’t done shit to prove he’s on the level of Admirals.

You are suing small sampled sized shit to prove Marco is on a whole different level than Luffy but yet Marco has yet to even hurt a Top Tier?

How in tf are you a Top Tier and yet you can’t hurt one??? Makes no sense.

Luffy has had better showings against Kaido then Marco has had against any Top Tier so far.

Wake me up when Marco hurts the WSC and then take a partial TB to the head in bAse with no critical damage.

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## Oberyn Nymeros (Jan 15, 2021)

No YFM can beat the Luffy

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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

VileNotice said:


> Did you read the latest chapter? If not spoiler alert
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


G4 Luffy and base Luffy's faces are equally as durable. If he got hit straight on he would of gone down, that's the implication. Him partially dodging made a huge difference, Luffy was grimacing at each and every one of Kaido's attacks and Kaido was laughing at all of his. Kaido would wreck Luffy one on one based on last chapter.



VileNotice said:


> Of course Yonko aren’t one-shotting Marco either but Marco doesn’t have Luffy level offense until shown.


But you see, you're just wrong.

You can have that opinion. But based on every moment we have seen Marco show his offense, it's on the level of Big Mom, Kizaru, Akainu etc. Using feats, Marco is far above Luffy's offense.



VileNotice said:


> All the stuff he showed against admirals Luffy could have replicated in Dressrosa (he pushed Fuji in G3, he could easily launch a logia admiral with G4).


I usually laugh off this argument and give it no space. It's just so fallacious.

"Luffy kicked Aokiji in the air so Marco kicking Aokiji in the air means nothing". Well, what about the times when the Admiral Kizaru was giving push back and got knocked back? And what about when Big Mom was trying to get past Marco to get to Kaido and couldn't do so? And we see huge clashing explosions in the background as well.



VileNotice said:


> Marco’s best offensive feat so far imo is restraining King and Queen at the same time, but we have yet to see how that plays out.


It's not.

That "feat" means literally nothing.

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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> G4 Luffy and base Luffy's faces are equally as durable. If he got hit straight on he would of gone down, that's the implication. Him partially dodging made a huge difference, Luffy was grimacing at each and every one of Kaido's attacks and Kaido was laughing at all of his. Kaido would wreck Luffy one on one based on last chapter.
> 
> 
> But you see, you're just wrong.
> ...


How in tf do you get hit in the forehead with a gigantic ass fast club and still not get KOed???

The fact of the matter is, it still hit him in his fuckign head, it hit him in his forehead making him spin like 5 damn times, it STILL should have KOed him and didn’t.

If I get hit in the head with a baseball bat am I not still going to feel that shit??? 

Am I still at risk of being knocked tf out???? Yes I am.

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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Fuck no, he clashed with her with an Advantage against Prometheus


I really want you to break this down. You've said it a billion times, but not once have I actually understood your point.



OG sama said:


> Kizaru isn’t getting choked casually like that against BM.


Huh? Did you just make something up?



OG sama said:


> You are suing small sampled sized shit to prove Marco is on a whole different level than Luffy but yet Marco has yet to even hurt a Top Tier?


Fallacy. Kizaru hasn't hurt a top-tier either. I keep telling you this, it's not a good argument.



OG sama said:


> Luffy has had better showings against Kaido then Marco has had against any Top Tier so far.


Yeah, that's definitely true. I think that means Luffy is way above Marco because he made big bad bleed when his guard was completely down and got a hit right on the chin. It's not like Jozu did the same to a top-tier and is weaker than Marco dur dur.



OG sama said:


> Wake me up when Marco hurts the WSC and then take a partial TB to the head in bAse with no critical damage.


He took Garp's fist right to the face, no partial dodge and was literally just bruised. No bleeding.

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## VileNotice (Jan 15, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> G4 Luffy and base Luffy's faces are equally as durable. If he got hit straight on he would of gone down, that's the implication. Him partially dodging made a huge difference, Luffy was grimacing at each and every one of Kaido's attacks and Kaido was laughing at all of his. Kaido would wreck Luffy one on one based on last chapter.
> 
> 
> But you see, you're just wrong.
> ...


The second BM wanted to go to Kaido she left. Marco wasn’t blocking squat, he annoyed her by announcing his allegiance to Luffy so she attacked him. Then his resistance to her homies made her realize she was wasting her time.

You’re the one who needs to explain how a logia admiral would not get knocked aside by G4. It ragdolled Kaido at the beginning of Wano too. Hitting top tiers without drawing blood isn’t a good feat in my book, yet you insist that it is.

He actually physically dominated King and Queen, unlike his run-ins with top tiers. That’s why it’s a good feat for him.

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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> I really want you to break this down. You've said it a billion times, but not once have I actually understood your point.
> 
> 
> Huh? Did you just make something up?
> ...


It means exactly what I said.

So a guy with the same rank as Akainu, the strongest force the Marines have to offer can’t hurt a Top Tier? Yeah stop this is just desperation on your part.

And Kizaru pinned down WBs bisento with his own leg no DF required at that moment  so it was his own base strength and then proceeded to put lasers through WB, WB definitely feel that.

Lol look at this Hypocrisy, this is the same logic you use to wank Marco but yet you can’t give Luffy the credit he deserves? But yet you can give Marco the benefit of the doubt for short clashes????? You are biased as fuck bruh.

Kaido was looking right at Luffy and got floored, the attack was strong enough to have Kaido pondering if Luffy was as good as the great pirates.

Jozu hit a Aokiji who literally wasn’t paying attention to him, not the same.

We know Marco has great defense, Luffy isn’t going to beat him with one move, Garp punching and hurting Marco isn’t something that only Garp can do just because we haven’t seen anybody else do it.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

VileNotice said:


> The second BM wanted to go to Kaido she left. Marco wasn’t blocking squat, he annoyed her by announcing his allegiance to Luffy so she attacked him.


That's not true. She had an opening and left, Marco was blocking and putting out everything she was. It was a back and forth that lasted the most part of the Kaido vs Scabbards fight, from 992 to 995.



VileNotice said:


> Then his resistance to her homies made her realize she was wasting her time.


So you're saying she needs her homies to defeat him?



VileNotice said:


> You’re the one who needs to explain how a logia admiral would not get knocked aside by G4. It ragdolled Kaido at the beginning of Wano too.


Lol, do you even think before you post? Big Mom moved a finger and blocked KG. Kaido took one to the gut and didn't get ragdolled at all.



VileNotice said:


> Hitting top tiers without drawing blood isn’t a good feat in my book, yet you insist that it is.


He's matching them in a brawl yet you insist his lack of drawing blood means his feats of matching them are worth nothing. You see the problem with that logic? Shanks clashing with Whitebeard means nothing because he didnt "draw blood" yet countless individuals bring it up to hype Shanks, they bring up Akainu blocking Whitebeard, they bring up Kizaru holding down Whitebeard's bisento, and rightfully so! Yet for Marco it is a different story.



VileNotice said:


> He actually physically dominated King and Queen, unlike his run-ins with top tiers. That’s why it’s a good feat for him.


It's an OL feat. Means nothing except it means everything to the obsessive tier specialists.

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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

OG sama said:


> It means exactly what I said.


I know you're incapable, just try.



OG sama said:


> So a guy with the same rank as Akainu, the strongest force the Marines have to offer can’t hurt a Top Tier? Yeah stop this is just desperation on your part.


But he didn't. Marco fought equally and got the better of Kizaru but he didn't harm anyone.



OG sama said:


> And Kizaru pinned down WBs bisento with his own leg no DF required at that moment  so it was his own base strength and then proceeded to put lasers through WB, WB definitely feel that.


Marco overpowered that same Kizaru physically. Are your neurons not firing?



OG sama said:


> Lol look at this Hypocrisy, this is the same logic you use to wank Marco but yet you can’t give Luffy the credit he deserves? But yet you can give Marco the benefit of the doubt for short clashes????? You are biased as fuck bruh.


I have no idea what you're talking about.

Luffy did not do well against Kaido ever.



OG sama said:


> Kaido was looking right at Luffy and got floored, the attack was strong enough to have Kaido pondering if Luffy was as good as the great pirates.


Keep telling yourself that  



OG sama said:


> Jozu hit a Aokiji who literally wasn’t paying attention to him, not the same.


^



OG sama said:


> We know Marco has great defense, Luffy isn’t going to beat him with one move, Garp punching and hurting Marco isn’t something that only Garp can do just because we haven’t seen anybody else do it.


That was his durability. You asked for one time Marco had a more impressive feat than Luffy not getting instantly KO'd after partially dodging one of Kaido's attacks. Marco took a similar attack right to the face and was fine.

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## VileNotice (Jan 15, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> That's not true. She had an opening and left, Marco was blocking and putting out everything she was. It was a back and forth that lasted the most part of the Kaido vs Scabbards fight, from 992 to 995.
> 
> 
> So you're saying she needs her homies to defeat him?


Marco is an annoying opponent to put down certainly. Without her homies who knows how long it would take for BM to defeat him. 


Shunsuiju said:


> Lol, do you even think before you post? Big Mom moved a finger and blocked KG. Kaido took one to the gut and didn't get ragdolled at all.
> 
> He's matching them in a brawl yet you insist his lack of drawing blood means his feats of matching them are worth nothing. You see the problem with that logic? Shanks clashing with Whitebeard means nothing because he didnt "draw blood" yet countless individuals bring it up to hype Shanks, they bring up Akainu blocking Whitebeard, they bring up Kizaru holding down Whitebeard's bisento, and rightfully so! Yet for Marco it is a different story.


She used armament. That suggests Kong Gun would at least knock her back without it. It knocked Kaido to the ground from the air and when he stood up it knocked him back down, so it has decent force. 

The Yonko matching each other is different because their weapons clashed. If Shanks sliced WB and there was no injury, yeah I’d think something was up.


Shunsuiju said:


> It's an OL feat. Means nothing except it means everything to the obsessive tier specialists.


It’s literally the only thing showing his physical superiority against another FM, you’d think you’d appreciate it more lol.

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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

Marco clashes with BM with a direct counter to her Homies, how in tf is that not understandable?????

If we are going to give Marco credit for this then let’s give Brook his credit for cutting her Homies and Zoro his credit for cutting Prometheus.

Why do you think people don’t bring up these instances to hype those characters????

I shouldn’t have to explain really, those were hard counters. Direct counters to BMs abilities, that’s what it is, there’s no unfair treatment for Marco going around.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

VileNotice said:


> Marco is an annoying opponent to put down certainly. Without her homies who knows how long it would take for BM to defeat him.


But Marco's fruit has a limit that Garp can get past. Surely Big Mom can too?

She couldn't defeat him without her homies. How does that translate to Marco being way below her?



VileNotice said:


> She used armament. That suggests Kong Gun would at least knock her back without it. It knocked Kaido to the ground from the air and when he stood up it knocked him back down, so it has decent force.
> 
> The Yonko matching each other is different because their weapons clashed. If Shanks sliced WB and there was no injury, yeah I’d think something was up.


Rayleigh kicked Kizaru and did nothing too. What's your explanation for that?



VileNotice said:


> It’s literally the only thing showing his physical superiority against another FM, you’d think you’d appreciate it more lol.


Big Mom grabbed Marco, Ulti grabbed Luffy. It doesn't mean much in reality.

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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Marco clashes with BM with a direct counter to her Homies, how in tf is that not understandable?????


He clashed right with her fist. What does adding flame to her fist and then the flame being rendered useless have to do with anything?



OG sama said:


> If we are going to give Marco credit for this then let’s give Brook his credit for cutting her Homies and Zoro his credit for cutting Prometheus.


I didn't give any credit for having a devil fruit counter. Never did I say that.

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## Jake CENA (Jan 15, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Marco clashes with BM with a direct counter to her Homies, how in tf is that not understandable?????
> 
> If we are going to give Marco credit for this then let’s give Brook his credit for cutting her Homies and Zoro his credit for cutting Prometheus.
> 
> ...



Exactly. The most retarded arguments I’ve seen here are from Wb, Marco and Garp wankers

These 3 side characters are all nothing but useless hype. 

Marco has the semi immortality fruit none of his feats are amazing since he is only relying on his df. 

Have you seem Marco on base form throw a CoA punch and knock someone away? No. So gtfo here.

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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

Jake CENA said:


> Have you seem Marco on base form throw a CoA punch and knock someone away? No. So gtfo here.


He threw a kick and knocked Kizaru away using haki

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## VileNotice (Jan 15, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> But Marco's fruit has a limit that Garp can get past. Surely Big Mom can too?
> 
> She couldn't defeat him without her homies. How does that translate to Marco being way below her?


She couldn’t defeat him *quickly *without her homies. 


Shunsuiju said:


> Rayleigh kicked Kizaru and did nothing too. What's your explanation for that?



Rayleigh is weaker than Kizaru if you ask me. He can hold him off for a long time but he’d lose high diff. Might even be weaker than current Luffy.


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## Jake CENA (Jan 15, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> He threw a kick and knocked Kizaru away using haki



Marco was using hybrid mode dumbass.

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## Mylesime (Jan 15, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Marco clashes with BM with a direct counter to her Homies, how in tf is that not understandable?????
> 
> If we are going to give Marco credit for this then let’s give Brook his credit for cutting her Homies and Zoro his credit for cutting Prometheus.



I see this repeated often and it's simply a false equivalence and you know it.
If brook was able to evenly clash with big mom while his sword made contact with her enhanced fist or Napoleon you would have a point.
Zoro can block Napoleon he's physically impressive, Brook can't fuck with Big Mom in a direct clash.
Independently from their fruits, there is a physical clash.
Give  brook Marco's fruit and he would be sent flying away.

Like all the others, if his fruit is so effectice it's because at its chore the character has solid stats like Sabo, Law, the admirals, the yonkous, etc.
Monet's fruit was broken, she wasn't a threat for Zoro whatsoever.
Marco's strength is not more linked to his fruit than the other op devil fruit users.

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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> I know you're incapable, just try.
> 
> 
> But he didn't. Marco fought equally and got the better of Kizaru but he didn't harm anyone.
> ...


That’s your problem, you need people to break things down for you as if you can’t think for yourself, I have no time for that I have explained things to you dozens of times, you have been biased in your approach every time.

Marco has a fruit that heals, Kizaru doesn’t and what’s funny is...Kizaru came out of any scuffle with Marco in a better condition than Marco did despite not have a fruit that heals instantaneously. But yet Marco is Admiral level? Give Kizaru time to figure out Marcos abilities and watch that fight be completely in Kizarus favor.

And what damage was done? Nothing. 

You don’t get it???? Was Luffy not also knocking Kaido around at the beginning of this arc doing 0 fucking damage???? That’s no different than what Marco was doing during MF.

^But yet you didn’t realize this? You gone act like you don’t know what the fuck I’m talking about. You say that’s not doing well?? But yet what Marco did against Kizaru is???? In what world???

You can’t even give credit to Luffy for hurting Kaido now, and taking a partial TB. Two things I have yet to see Marco do.

He was in full Phoenix form, he wasn’t going to be KOed from that attack, but he felt it and it was a mere punch that Garp through to basically let Marco know to get the fuck back. Marco definitely wasn’t taking a flurry of those and that’s exactly what the Current Luffy can replicate, a constant flurry of punches that can slow down Marcos regen.

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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

VileNotice said:


> She couldn’t defeat him *quickly *without her homies.


she needed 3 chapters to come to the conclusion that he wasnt worth expending effort on. how does that not imply he can give her a good go of things?



VileNotice said:


> Rayleigh is weaker than Kizaru if you ask me. He can hold him off for a long time but he’d lose high diff. Might even be weaker than current Luffy.


Shanks clashed with Whitebeard and did no damage, does that mean he didn't match Whitebeard?


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

Jake CENA said:


> Marco was using hybrid mode dumbass.


Bad troll

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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> He clashed right with her fist. What does adding flame to her fist and then the flame being rendered useless have to do with anything?
> 
> 
> I didn't give any credit for having a devil fruit counter. Never did I say that.



If Marco could seriously clash with BMs fist then her effortlessly holding him in a chokehold should have been something he could easily escape from, but that wasn’t the case. What Marco is doing is throwing his flames that heal at a punch from BM that’s largely negated because the main force is coming from Prometheus who is a bad matchup for the flames.

That’s exactly what you have been doing, Marcos flames are a direct counter to her Homies and possibly her entire arsenal.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

OG sama said:


> That’s your problem, you need people to break things down for you as if you can’t think for yourself, I have no time for that I have explained things to you dozens of times, you have been biased in your approach every time.
> 
> Marco has a fruit that heals, Kizaru doesn’t and what’s funny is...*Kizaru came out of any scuffle with Marco in a better condition than Marco did despite not have a fruit that heals instantaneously.* But yet Marco is Admiral level? Give Kizaru time to figure out Marcos abilities and watch that fight be completely in Kizarus favor.






OG sama said:


> You don’t get it???? Was Luffy not also knocking Kaido around at the beginning of this arc doing 0 fucking damage???? That’s no different than what Marco was doing during MF.


Marco was matching Admirals. Luffy was knocking around a Kaido who was just sitting there. It's not the same at all.



OG sama said:


> ^But yet you didn’t realize this? You gone act like you don’t know what the fuck I’m talking about. You say that’s not doing well?? But yet what Marco did against Kizaru is???? In what world???


If Luffy leaped in the air and Kaido tried blocking and Luffy knocked him back a hundred meters and Kaido (say he has a logia) wasn't even injured  from the impact that would means Luffy is as strong as Kaido and not embarsingly waeker like he is now.



OG sama said:


> You can’t even give credit to Luffy for hurting Kaido now, and taking a partial TB. Two things I have yet to see Marco do.


Lol.

Luffy knocked Garp right in the face pre-ts, dude was down for a few chapters, had his head stuck in the ground and was still bleeding at the end of the war. Luffy did significant damage to Kaido my ass.



OG sama said:


> He was in full Phoenix form, he wasn’t going to be KOed from that attack, but he felt it and it was a mere punch that Garp through to basically let Marco know to get the fuck back. Marco definitely wasn’t taking a flurry of those and that’s exactly what the Current Luffy can replicate, a constant flurry of punches that can slow down Marcos regen.


What?

So Garp wasn't trying?
And Marco's fruit helped him there? I thought you were the one saying that Garp bypassed his fruit? Which it did because he took minimal damage at least, far less than Luffy did against Kaido.

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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> I see this repeated often and it's simply a false equivalence and you know it.
> If brook was able to evenly clash with big mom while his sword made contact with her enhanced fist or Napoleon you would have a point.
> Zoro can block Napoleon he's physically impressive, Brook can't fuck with Big Mom in a direct clash.
> Independently from their fruits, there is a physical clash.
> ...


Marco can’t match BMs base punches, he can’t even get out of a chokehold from her how in tf is he seriously stalemating Base punches from her? The attack was just largely negated because the main force behind the punch was Prometheus and he was extremely hard countered.

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## VileNotice (Jan 15, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> she needed 3 chapters to come to the conclusion that he wasnt worth expending effort on. how does that not imply he can give her a good go of things?


Chapters don't occur in real time. For all we know they could have been fighting for 30 seconds. In any case Prometheus didn't get KO'd until we saw it on panel, that's when BM decided that she'd either need Pero's help to finish things quickly or she'd rather not spend the time.


Shunsuiju said:


> Shanks clashed with Whitebeard and did no damage, does that mean he didn't match Whitebeard?


They clashed weapons equally. It's not the same as Marco with Vista's support slashing at Akainu's neck and doing nothing.

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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

OG sama said:


> If Marco could seriously clash with BMs fist then her effortlessly holding him in a chokehold should have been something he could easily escape from, but that wasn’t the case. What Marco is doing is throwing his flames that heal at a punch from BM that’s largely negated because the main force is coming from Prometheus who is a bad matchup for the flames.
> 
> That’s exactly what you have been doing, Marcos flames are a direct counter to her Homies and possibly her entire arsenal.


Prometheus is a boxing glove. It's still Big Mom's power. If she swung and hit the ground with prometheus she would do as much damage as without. Marco was equalling her out, simple as. Him getting grabbed doesnt override anything.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Marco can’t match BMs base punches, he can’t even get out of a chokehold from her how in tf is he seriously stalemating Base punches from her? The attack was just largely negated because the main force behind the punch was Prometheus and he was extremely hard countered.



who is doing that? prometheus?


VileNotice said:


> Chapters don't occur in real time. For all we know they could have been fighting for 30 seconds. In any case Prometheus didn't get KO'd until we saw it on panel, that's when BM decided that she'd either need Pero's help to finish things quickly or she'd rather not spend the time.
> 
> They clashed weapons equally. It's not the same as Marco with Vista's support slashing at Akainu's neck and doing nothing.


You're making that up. Big Mom came into Onigashima exactly 3 chapters after 992. She didn't show up right after because stuff in Onigashima was happening on panel in between that time frame.

When did I bring up Akainu? Marco overpowered Kizaru physically and clashed equally with Big Mom. Both of thos einstances is the exact same as Shanks clashing with Whitebeard, Akainu and Kizaru doing the same, Big Mom clashing with Kaido etc.


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## Beast (Jan 15, 2021)

Yeah not much has happened but I think it’s enough for luffy to come out on top since this isn’t his strongest form or his final form against Kaidou which I’m sure he will evolve to but gonna give my guy Marco some credit and say extreme diff till Wano ends, Luffys COA3 isn’t consistent and he still needs to get use to it and I think that’s what will happen in this fight, Marcos awakening and haki should be able to take luffy there imo.


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## Draco Bolton (Jan 15, 2021)

Luffy high diff

Reactions: Agree 1


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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Marco was matching Admirals. Luffy was knocking around a Kaido who was just sitting there. It's not the same at all.
> 
> 
> If Luffy leaped in the air and Kaido tried blocking and Luffy knocked him back a hundred meters and Kaido wasn't even injured that would means Luffy is as strong as Kaido and not embarsingly waeker like he is now.
> ...


A Kaido who sits there and is known for just tanking damage by sitting there. Kizaru or any Admiral wouldn’t be sitting there even attempting to tank those attacks from Luffy. Hell Fujitora didn’t even want to just stand there and take EG, he even blocked and was still pushed back.

^But I don’t see you mentioning the Fujitora fight between Luffy and him. You want to attach asterisks to anything Luffy does but yet you want to wank Marco for his relatively poor showings offensively. That shit is insane man.

Luffy knocked back a guarding Fuji with just an EG and that was a DR EG wayyyy weaker than the current ones. Like o said I don’t see you bringing those up. It’s obvious Kaido is just a different breed from the Admirals or at least all of them except maybe Akainu.

His willpower lowered causing his Haki to drop because he obviously wanted Luffy to rescue Ace.... I’m not going to keep spoon feeding you shit if you are going to continue to be biased asf bruh.

What are you talking about? Im saying he wasn’t going to be one shotted by the attack especially in Phoenix mode not that it didn’t do any damage. I’m getting tired of repeating the same shit man.


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## Mylesime (Jan 15, 2021)

OG sama said:


> If Marco could seriously clash with BMs fist then her effortlessly holding him in a chokehold should have been something he could easily escape from, but that wasn’t the case.


But if she was so overwhelmingly superior on a physical standpoint, once she caught him she should have no difficulty chocking him to death, depriving him of oxygen. She hold him, has armement.
Her letting him go, or him freeing himself, and her deciding to leave him and stating that she needs her homies at full strength is self explanatory.
Her asking for her son intervention is self explanatory.
Let's be real, give the phoenix fruit to Nami, have Big Mom choke her, the fuck would happen?


OG sama said:


> OG sama said:
> 
> 
> > Marco can’t match BMs base punches, he can’t even get out of a chokehold from her how in tf is he seriously stalemating Base punches from her? The attack was just largely negated because the main force behind the punch was Prometheus and he was extremely hard countered.


He did.
He did it with Aka inu and Kizaru too.
You were talking about kizaru natural strength when it came to his feat against Wb and his bisento.
That's the same principle. Big Mom is using prometheus like Sanji, Luffy, Zoro or Kinemon use fire, it's an added/burning effect, she still has to put strength behind it.
Like the admirals, like Kizaru.
It's the same with Marco, you're strangely denying it. Reflexes, speed, strength the user base stats matter.
Give his fruit to Nami , can anyone seriously imply that she could get anywhere near Marco's performances.

It's simple base Marco has solid stats, that's why he can fuck with all these top tiers, that's why Monet and Caribou were Os material for Zoro or pekoms.
He's the whole package.


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## Draco Bolton (Jan 15, 2021)

Pollos hermanos....  

I failed you

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Sloan (Jan 15, 2021)

Kizaru’s best feats are not even one shotting Super novas pre-ts SN’s that could get low diffed by pacifistas.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Prometheus is a boxing glove. It's still Big Mom's power. If she swung and hit the ground with prometheus she would do as much damage as without. Marco was equalling her out, simple as. Him getting grabbed doesnt override anything.


He negated Prometheus with his flames, the main force of the attack.

We literally see Prometheus just going back, those flames had a real effect on him.

If BM can grab him by the neck and put him in a chokehold he can’t get out of with her bare hands there’s no way he’s matching base punches with her.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

Draco Bolton said:


> Pollos hermanos....
> 
> I failed you


Stop cluttering the thread.


OG sama said:


> A Kaido who sits there and is known for just tanking damage by sitting there. Kizaru or any Admiral wouldn’t be sitting there even attempting to tank those attacks from Luffy. Hell Fujitora didn’t even want to just stand there and take EG, he even blocked and was still pushed back.
> 
> ^But I don’t see you mentioning the Fujitora fight between Luffy and him. You want to attach asterisks to anything Luffy does but yet you want to wank Marco for his relatively poor showings offensively. That shit is insane man.


Fujitora was not trying. Kizaru was.

That shit is insane man. 


OG sama said:


> Luffy knocked back a guarding Fuji with just an EG and that was a DR EG wayyyy weaker than the current ones. Like o said I don’t see you bringing those up. It’s obvious Kaido is just a different breed from the Admirals or at least all of them except maybe Akainu.


Ok you're going off on a tangent now.



OG sama said:


> His willpower lowered causing his Haki to drop because he obviously wanted Luffy to rescue Ace.... I’m not going to keep spoon feeding you shit if you are going to continue to be biased asf bruh.


I guess you're tlaking about Marco vs Akainu? The scene is either inconsistent or Akainu pre-dodged with or without future sight. Whitebeard hit Kizaru and Aokiji and did nothing. Jozu hit Aokiji and it worked. Jozu is the weakest out of Whitebeard, Marco and himself in haki.



OG sama said:


> What are you talking about? Im saying he wasn’t going to be one shotted by the attack especially in Phoenix mode not that it didn’t do any damage. I’m getting tired of repeating the same shit man.


I fail to see what the phoenix did. He took Garp's fist which is a similar level attack to Kaido's club and was bruised. Again, you were the one who asked for a Marco durability feat that matches Luffy barely surviving a KO. This one far surpasses Luffy's.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

Sloan said:


> Kizaru’s best feats are not even one shotting Super novas pre-ts SN’s that could get low diffed by pacifistas.


Yeah man,  you have the right idea


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## VileNotice (Jan 15, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> who is doing that? prometheus?


Luffy can do that AND MORE as shown by Red Roc.


Shunsuiju said:


> You're making that up. Big Mom came into Onigashima exactly 3 chapters after 992. She didn't show up right after because stuff in Onigashima was happening on panel in between that time frame.


The stuff that happened on Onigashima in those chapters could have happened in a matter of minutes. There were like 3 separate Onigashima scenes that were happening at the same time. But it doesn't really matter, the amount of time could be a good thing for either party depending on how you look at it. A long battle could be good for Marco because he lasted a long time against BM or good for BM because it took him that long to defeat Prometheus who he countered. Vice versa with a short battle.


Shunsuiju said:


> When did I bring up Akainu? Marco overpowered Kizaru physically and clashed equally with Big Mom. Both of thos einstances is the exact same as Shanks clashing with Whitebeard, Akainu and Kizaru doing the same, Big Mom clashing with Kaido etc.


Do you think Akainu was stronger than Kizaru? Marco kicked Kizaru to no real effect while in an advantageous midair position. Marco doesn't have the feats of damaging a top tier like Luffy does as of the last couple chapters, it's that simple.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

OG sama said:


> If BM can grab him by the neck and put him in a chokehold he can’t get out of with her bare hands there’s no way he’s matching base punches with her.


He was. If I add fire to my fist somehow and punch your fist and we match each other, but you added water and negated the effect of the fire, does that mean we didn't match each other physically speaking?


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

VileNotice said:


> Luffy can do that AND MORE as shown by Red Roc.


Huh?

Because luffy made a top-tier bleed he can clash equally with Big Mom. OK. So pre-ts Luffy who put Garp out for a good amount of time can clash equally with Big Mom and not get blown way back like he did in the jail with hyogoro?



VileNotice said:


> The stuff that happened on Onigashima in those chapters could have happened in a matter of minutes. There were like 3 separate Onigashima scenes that were happening at the same time. But it doesn't really matter, the amount of time could be a good thing for either party depending on how you look at it. A long battle could be good for Marco because he lasted a long time against BM or good for BM because it took him that long to defeat Prometheus who he countered. Vice versa with a short battle.


All I here are excuses.

They were going at it for far longer than a few seconds which was your first estimation.



VileNotice said:


> Do you think Akainu was stronger than Kizaru? Marco kicked Kizaru to no real effect while in an advantageous midair position. Marco doesn't have the feats of damaging a top tier like Luffy does as of the last couple chapters, it's that simple.


He wrestled him to the ground man. Are you asking my opinion or shoving you warped and twisted one down my throat? Kizaru taking no damage from hitting the ground doesn't mean anything as he is a logia and the ground doesn't possess haki.

Again, Luffy damaged Garp... pre-ts. That means pre-ts Luffy > Marco right?


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## Sloan (Jan 15, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Yeah man,  you have the right idea


I’m slightly exagerating but it’s 95% true feat wise.  Marco actually has a better physical strength feat than Kizaru (choking out a Yc1+Yc2 at the same time).

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Sloan (Jan 15, 2021)

VileNotice said:


> Do you think Akainu was stronger than Kizaru? Marco kicked Kizaru to no real effect while in an advantageous midair position. Marco doesn't have the feats of damaging a top tier like Luffy does as of the last couple chapters, it's that simple.


Which Top-Tier has Kizaru damaged that was not questionable?


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## VileNotice (Jan 15, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Huh?
> 
> Because luffy made a top-tier bleed he can clash equally with Big Mom. OK. So pre-ts Luffy who put Garp out for a good amount of time can clash equally with Big Mom and not get blown way back like he did in the jail with hyogoro?


What are these comparisons lol.

If Luffy did that seriously to Garp then yeah, that would be a major, major feat. But Garp let it happen because he secretly wanted Ace to be saved, unless you are reading a different manga than me. Kaido is not the same, he fully expected he would tank Luffy's attack without taking damage.

I just don't know how to break to you that Luffy has gotten much stronger during his training. I wouldn't be surprised if he did fully block and counter BM's punch with advanced haki in this fight as a direct demonstration of growth. 


Shunsuiju said:


> All I here are excuses.
> 
> They were going at it for far longer than a few seconds which was your first estimation.


2 minutes is far longer than 30 seconds? I guess Marco needs all the seconds he can get, huh.


Shunsuiju said:


> He wrestled him to the ground man. Are you asking my opinion or shoving you warped and twisted one down my throat? Kizaru taking no damage from hitting the ground doesn't mean anything as he is a logia and the ground doesn't possess haki.


Kizaru took no damage from the kick.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

How in tf am I supposed to respond to all this shit. It’s like a million different replies  

All I know is Marco being as strong as Base BM sounds like a big ass joke.

BM basically defeated Queen with wrestling moves in her Base amnesiac state, she basically beat the dude without hitting him with a single punch.

Marco had King and Queen in a chokehold momentarily at best, there’s absolutely no way Marco is beating Queen with grapple moves and shit.

And even if we assumed Base BM is equal to Marco(fucking ridiculous), BM used Armament Haki to block a WCI KG from Luffy.

Base BM wouldn’t be beating the Current Luffy with no Homies with ease not even close.


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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

I’m supposed to believe what BM did in Base to Queen with WWE moves is what Marco can also do to Queen???


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## VileNotice (Jan 15, 2021)

Sloan said:


> Which Top-Tier has Kizaru damaged that was not questionable?


An obvious top tier such as an admiral or a Yonko doesn't need the feats of hurting another top tier for us to know that they are such. Oda pretty much told us they are at the top of the food chain, which is why top tier is more or less defined as being comparable to admirals and Yonko in the first place. Other characters, like Luffy or Marco, need such feats for us to know that they stack up to these monsters.

Now Marco has shown a couple top tier-bordering feats in Wano, but just not to the degree of Luffy, since Luffy actually hurt Kaido.


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## Mylesime (Jan 15, 2021)

OG sama said:


> I’m supposed to believe what BM did in Base to Queen with WWE moves is what Marco can also do to Queen???





Which obviously doesn't mean that Marco could beat the two of them at the same time.
You guys love to take isolated feats and events, which can be used to say absolutely anything.
We all know that this doesn't mean that he could handle them both easliy, like we know because Big Mom told us that she could not deal with Marco easily either.

There is too much bias.
Once we see the full extent of Marco's abilities, it will be much clearer.
Too much unknown element: hybrid? Awakening? Advanced form of haki?
We'll see

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

VileNotice said:


> Kizaru took no damage from the kick.


How would he?


OG sama said:


> How in tf am I supposed to respond to all this shit. It’s like a million different replies
> 
> All I know is Marco being as strong as Base BM sounds like a big ass joke.
> 
> ...


I've got you to a state of denial, looks I won this debate.

Fact is, Big Mom doing that to Queen means Kizaru, Aokiji, Jozu, Marco and any other top-tier should be able to do the same. Whipping around Queen like that is not much more impressive than Jozu launching that iceburg.


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## Sloan (Jan 15, 2021)

VileNotice said:


> An obvious top tier such as an admiral or a Yonko doesn't need the feats of hurting another top tier for us to know that they are such. Oda pretty much told us they are at the top of the food chain, which is why top tier is more or less defined as being comparable to admirals and Yonko in the first place. Other characters, like Luffy or Marco, need such feats for us to know that they stack up to these monsters.
> 
> Now Marco has shown a couple top tier-bordering feats in Wano, but just not to the degree of Luffy, since Luffy actually hurt Kaido.


Fair enough but if Luffy ends up getting Ko’d and needing to be healed to go for another round I would just argue that Marco would just wear out a top tiers Haki(since it runs out) to the point he can damage them since Marco does actually have good CoA feats(and strength feats).

Reactions: Like 1


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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

How strong would a Base BM be anyway?

All I know is that she through a punch at a base Luffy who was trying to learn how to use barrier Haki and he failed to do so and was thrown back, he was kind of hurt initially but was kind of fine after.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

OG sama said:


> And even if we assumed Base BM is equal to Marco(fucking ridiculous), BM used Armament Haki to block a WCI KG from Luffy.


wow i didn't even read it before.

big mom didnt use haki against marco but did against luffy 

this makes me want to get a ban.



OG sama said:


> How strong would a Base BM be anyway?
> 
> All I know is that she through a punch at a base Luffy who was trying to learn how to use barrier Haki and he failed to do so and was thrown back, he was kind of hurt initially but was kind of fine after.


respectfully, have this:

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> How would he?
> 
> I've got you to a state of denial, looks I won this debate.
> 
> Fact is, Big Mom doing that to Queen means Kizaru, Aokiji, Jozu, Marco and any other top-tier should be able to do the same. Whipping around Queen like that is not much more impressive than Jozu launching that iceburg.


Luffy wouldn’t lose to a Base BM so how exactly have you won?


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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Which obviously doesn't mean that Marco could beat the two of them at the same time.
> You guys love to take isolated feats and events, which can be used to say absolutely anything.
> We all know that this doesn't mean that he could handle them both easliy, like we know because Big Mom told us that she could not deal with Marco easily either.
> 
> ...


He had him in a momentary chokehold, if he can do that all day to King and Queen then I might be able to see your point.

But he needed to put them in a chokehold for as limited as a time to get Zoro on the roof.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Luffy wouldn’t lose to a Base BM so how exactly have you won?


Marco can output Big Mom power. Luffy is nothing to him. You can't deny this anymore, you're just like "bruh no way big mom is fat and shit". That means I've won the debate you quoted me for.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2 | Dislike 1


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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> respectfully, have this:


Her punch dharmed a Base Luffy that’s weaker than the Current Luffy who took a TB up the head... 

Base BM isn’t beating Luffy with those punches shes going to have to at least add Armament but she might just need her Homies.

This debate is still going.



Shunsuiju said:


> Marco can output Big Mom power. Luffy is nothing to him. You can't deny this anymore, you're just like "bruh no way big mom is fat and shit". That means I've won the debate you quoted me for.


BM isn’t going to beat Current Luffy with base punches....

You proved that Marco could possibly match her base punches with no Armament added on top.

Thats a huge handicap for her, no where near her full power.


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## Sloan (Jan 15, 2021)

To be honest Ikkoku has been BM’s only impressive feat outside of her homies imo.  She’s got the Kaidou syndrome of being more impressive without her Devil fruit so far.


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## Mylesime (Jan 15, 2021)

OG sama said:


> He had him in a momentary chokehold, if he can do that all day to King and Queen then I might be able to see your point.
> 
> But he needed to put them in a chokehold for as limited as a time to get Zoro on the roof.



You're implying that Big Mom could have choked Marco until the end of the Onigashima battle ?

Her chokehold too was momentary, the time for Perospero to throw his arrow. Once that option vanished, she bounced.




Sloan said:


> To be honest Ikkoku has been BM’s only impressive feat outside of her homies imo. She’s got the Kaidou syndrome of being more impressive without her Devil fruit so far.


She uses Napoleon, a homie for that too.

Many  act like only a select few characters rely on weaponry in order to shit on them, when  every one and his mother is enhanced.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sloan (Jan 15, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> She uses Napoleon, a homie for that too.
> 
> Many  act like only a select few characters rely on weaponry in order to shit on them, when  every one and his mother is enhanced.


Napoleon has the best/most impressive feat so far in that case.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> You're implying that Big Mom could have choked Marco until the end of the Onigashima battle ?
> 
> Her chokehold too was momentary, the time for Perospero to throw his arrow. Once that option vanished, she bounced.
> 
> ...


King and Queen weren’t  in danger of dying from that chokehold by Marco, Marco was about to be turned into candy and crushed because he wasn’t strong enough to get out.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

OG sama said:


> BM isn’t going to beat Current Luffy with base punches....
> 
> You proved that Marco could possibly match her base punches with no Armament added on top.
> 
> Thats a huge handicap for her, no where near her full power.


So Big Mom wasn't using haki behind her punches vs Marco? Where'd you pull that from?  

Big Mom was serious and used haki. Marco wins flat out based on feats, but I know you are too impatient to admit that for now until we know more.
This is the result of Marco vs Big Mom: 
This is the result of Luffy vs Big Mom:

*Spoiler*: __ 










OG sama said:


> This debate is still going.


Nah cuh

Reactions: Like 1


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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

BM needed Napoleon to match Kaidos Club, Kaidos club was partially tanked by the Current Luffy in base form.

A Base BM is absolutely in no way beating Luffy without Armament and Napoleon.

So yeah.. this debate is still on.


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## Mylesime (Jan 15, 2021)

OG sama said:


> King and Queen weren’t  in danger of dying from that chokehold by Marco, Marco was about to be turned into candy and crushed because he wasn’t strong enough to get out.


So like you stated he was in danger because of Perospero external intervention. A third party.
Once he was out of the equation , she bounced. This chokehold in and out of itself means as much as Marco grapling move on queen and king.....Not much

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

OG sama said:


> So yeah.. this debate is still on.


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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> So Big Mom wasn't using haki behind her punches vs Marco? Where'd you pull that from?
> 
> Big Mom was serious and used haki. Marco wins flat out based on feats, but I know you are too impatient to admit that for now until we know more.
> This is the result of Marco vs Big Mom:
> ...


Base BM sent a Base Luffy flying but yet BM needed Armament Haki to block an attack from a G4 Luffy using KG during the events of WCI....

Marco being stronger than a Base Luffy isn’t the debate here, and obviously Luffy isn’t stronger in base Pre Udon Training than Marco is at full power.

The Current Luffy has a much stronger KG due to Armament Haki than the one BM blocked during WCI even if we assumed BM was using Koka against Marco.

This debate isn’t over.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> So like you stated he was in danger because of Perospero external intervention. A third party.
> Once he was out of the equation , she bounced. This chokehold in and out of itself means as much as Marco grapling move on queen and king.....Not much


He would have probably just continued to heal if she had used her other hand to just continuously bash his face in.

She seemed to have needed Peros intervention to beat him faster, because it’s obvious beating Marco is going to take time with his regen being as instant as it is.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

OG sama said:


> This debate isn’t over.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 15, 2021)

Marco would still win the fight. 

Luffy is arguably stronger though.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Creative 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

OG sama said:


> He would have probably just continued to heal if she had used her other hand to just continuously bash his face in.
> 
> She seemed to have needed Peros intervention to beat him faster, because it’s obvious beating Marco is going to take time with his regen being as instant as it is.


you should make a thread about how marco has instant regen and cant be beat by top tiers for a very long time, oh wait


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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

So Base BM is stronger than the Current Luffy who took TB to the forehead in Base and was relatively fine....

You still haven’t answered me this question. BM needed Napoleon to match that club, she wasn’t doing that with Base punches.

BM needed to put Koka on her arm to stop a KG from WCI G4 Luffy.

She wasn’t using hardening against Marco, Marco negated the main force of her attack which was Prometheus, she would have still been using invisible Haki most likely but Koka isn’t specifically shown.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

OG sama said:


> *So Base BM is stronger than the Current Luffy* who took TB to the forehead in Base and was relatively fine....


Yes?



OG sama said:


> You still haven’t answered me this question. BM needed Napoleon to match that club, she wasn’t doing that with Base punches.


It's her physical strength still. She didn't need it.



OG sama said:


> BM needed to put Koka on her arm to stop a KG from WCI G4 Luffy.


She didn't need to.



OG sama said:


> She wasn’t using hardening against Marco, Marco negated the main force of her attack which was Prometheus, she would have still been using invisible Haki most likely but Koka isn’t specifically shown.


It doesn't matter.

This is not a debate, purely educational.


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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Yes?
> 
> 
> It's her physical strength still. She didn't need it.
> ...


Lol what a joke you are, the same BM that needed to block WCI G4 with Koka is going to beat Current Luffy without her Homies and without Haki? Proof? Cause there’s nothing proving this. BMs base punch didn’t even stop Luffy on Udon, Kaidos club KOed G4 Luffy, it’s wayy stronger than BMs base punches. Even now, Luffy felt that Club a lot more than he did BMs punch in base.

Proof? Cause I got mine above from the actual manga. And they don’t agree with your opinion.

Then why did she?? Lol this is pathetic of you, Odas going to have her do it but really she didn’t need to? Lol at this Hypocrisy. You take everything Marco does at face value, all his feats at face value but when it pertains to anyone else you make excuses, yeah you’re done. Provide the proof or concession accepted.

How does it not matter? BM blocked KG with her CoA fist. If Marco can match a Koka fist from her then Marco would be stalemating a WCI KG fist just like she did. Hardening is better than invisible Haki. Marco matched a Base BM punch or an Invisible Haki punch at best he wouldn’t do what she did anyway but even if he could that still doesn’t prove his superiority over the Current Luffy.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

^Keep in mind base BM using Armament is half of her full power. If Marco can match that, he’s only a match for half her arsenal at his own full power.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 15, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Jesus, 80 posts? Guys, fuck Marco and his healing.


me and marco debates LOL:




OG sama said:


> Lol what a joke you are, the same BM that needed to block WCI G4 with Koka is going to beat Current Luffy without her Homies and without Haki? Proof? Cause there’s nothing proving this. BMs base punch didn’t even stop Luffy on Udon, Kaidos club KOed G4 Luffy, it’s wayy stronger than BMs base punches. Even now, Luffy felt that Club a lot more than he did BMs punch in base.
> 
> Proof? Cause I got mine above from the actual manga. And they don’t agree with your opinion.
> 
> ...


Big Mom was pretty unimpressive this chapter but this is some tier specialist behaviour. Big Mom beats Luffys ass fdom style

Reactions: Funny 2


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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> me and marco debates LOL:
> 
> 
> 
> Big Mom was pretty unimpressive this chapter but this is some tier specialist behaviour. Big Mom beats Luffys ass fdom style


No proof? Concession accepted then.

Marco having BMs base strength is obviously bullshit. No one in their right mind is saying that Marco has the same Physicals as BM does.

I don’t know why I even entertained this shit.

The guy got grabbed by the neck by her one  bare hand, that alone suggests he isn’t anywhere near as strong as her physically.


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## OG sama (Jan 15, 2021)

Also Marco never attacked BM fist to fist either, if you look at the image his fist and arms form a wing. When he’s attacking in that form hes basically shotting a beam of flames at his opponent to mainly defend.




Reinforcing what I said that he isn’t actually matching her physically when he clashes with her.


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## Tenma (Jan 15, 2021)

Marco's a beast who'd absolutely shit on any other Supernova on the roof atm

but Luffy's big chad energy is just too much. He's clearly the strongest member of the alliance right now.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Ren. (Jan 16, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Considering there are still people who think Marco and especially Jozu and Vista are Admiral level I think this thread is in order.
> 
> Who wins between the Current Luffy and Marco?
> 
> ...


Luffy wins.

Luffy has the stats of a top tier now and the feats of one defense and ofense.

No top tier will one-shots him so he wins vs any high tier.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Lawliet (Jan 16, 2021)

Anyone that thinks Marco can win is still in denial about Luffy

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Ren. (Jan 16, 2021)

Ok these that spammed this thread, you know who I mean.

Don't ever call me a Zoro hater when I do the same for Zoro as I saw in this thread.

With those arguments Zoro is never wining in Wano vs Marco Period.


Luffy only showed Red Roc and a dodge in base to a move that KO him in Bondman but you guys think that he will lose to Marco, and again do not forget I made 3 threads to respect Marco so I know what Marco can do.


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## Whimsy (Jan 16, 2021)

From what Luffy has shown so far, I don't think we can say he wins. However I'm absolutely sure when we see him combine advanced haki with G4 he'll have enough in his arsenal to win.


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## Ren. (Jan 16, 2021)

Whimsy said:


> From what Luffy has shown so far, I don't think we can say he wins. However I'm absolutely sure when we see him combine advanced haki with G4 he'll have enough in his arsenal to win.


All out Luffy wins 100% vs any high tier now.

What we saw in 1000-1001 is not even 40% Luffy.


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## Whimsy (Jan 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> All out Luffy wins 100% vs any high tier now.
> 
> What we saw in 1000-1001 is not even 40% Luffy.


That's what I'm assuming, we've only scratched the surface on what he can do now

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Jan 16, 2021)

Whimsy said:


> That's what I'm assuming, we've only scratched the surface on what he can do now


We only saw a base dodge with FS.

a g2+G3 with advanced COA.

And that his G4 is now like the other gears, attacks once and gets back in base.

That should suggest to anyone that Marco can not outlast him.


DD could do that to Luffy that used G4 for the first time and he could not even finish him with his awakening when Luffy was in base.


Luffy now needs only one shot of Red roc to finish DD and none of DD's attacks will land even on base as Luffy almost dodged Kaido.


Think about all of those.


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## Bobybobster (Jan 16, 2021)

luffy offense > marco's, but people think marco's offense is so low it can't even hurt luffy?


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## Ren. (Jan 16, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> luffy offense > marco's, but people think marco's offense is so low it can't even hurt luffy?


Only haters think that.

But the other side think that Luffy can't overwhelm Marco.


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## Bobybobster (Jan 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Only haters think that.
> 
> But the other side think that Luffy can't overwhelm Marco.


luffy can overwhelm marco in power, but it's not like marco hasn't taken numerous top tier attacks and remain fine after. + this nibba is fast af, matching kizaru and shit.


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## Ren. (Jan 16, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> luffy can overwhelm marco in power, but it's not like marco hasn't taken numerous top tier attacks and remain fine after.


He never had an actual 1vs1 extended fight.

Luffy has the AP and COA to damage Kaido with not even 40% of what he can.


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## Sloan (Jan 16, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> luffy can overwhelm marco in power, but it's not like marco hasn't taken numerous top tier attacks and remain fine after. + this nibba is fast af, matching kizaru and shit.


Dat relativistic Marco :x


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## Bobybobster (Jan 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> He never had an actual 1vs1 extended fight.
> 
> Luffy has the AP and COA to damage Kaido with not even 40% of what he can.


What I meant was marco's taken attacks that can surely damage top tiers too, and remain fine afterwards. But it's true that we don't know the full extent of marco's power or how long he can keep going, the man barely gets any screen time.


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## Ren. (Jan 16, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> What I meant was marco's taken attacks that can surely damage top tiers too, and remain fine afterwards. But it's true that we don't know the full extent of marco's power or how long he can keep going, the man barely gets any screen time.


Yes but Luffy damaged Kaido that can tank a lot more than Marco.


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## Bobybobster (Jan 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Yes but Luffy damaged Kaido that can tank a lot more than Marco.


my man, when I said "marco remained fine afterwards", I meant he can heal through attacks that are > luffy's (well what he's shown so far). So ofc luffy will damage marco, but the man can heal. The question is just how much power does luffy need to damage marco in the first place?


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## Ren. (Jan 16, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> attacks that are > luffy's


LOL those attacks don't even have haki of this level.

See vs Garp.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Bobybobster (Jan 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> LOL those attacks don't even have haki of this level.
> 
> See vs Garp.


ok so marco was out of the war after that punch? 

Let me ask you this, you think a red roc will do more damage to kaido than kizaru's named attack?


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## Ren. (Jan 16, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> you think a red roc will do more damage to kaido than kizaru's named attack?


No I will do better as you seem to not understand the manga.

Garp's punch did more than those because of COA.

And so did Red Roc and you know why because those do not have the same level of COA.




Kizaru's named attack did shit to even stop him.

While Garp did more:



So do you have your answer?


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## Bobybobster (Jan 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> No I will do better as you seem to not understand the manga.
> 
> Garp's puch did more than those.
> 
> And so did Red Roc and you know why because those do not have the same level of COA.


ok so, coa does some internal damage to marco, and then what? Marco get's one shot after 1 red roc?


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## Ren. (Jan 16, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> ok so, coa does some internal damage to marco, and then what? Marco get's one shot after 1 red roc?


...

No mate, it does more than what you saw from the Admirals.

Those do superficial damage as most of them are instantly healed as you saw on that panel.

While that internal damage takes more to heal because it affects his real body.


If Admirals would want to real hurt Marco they will start using their barie COA.


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## Bobybobster (Jan 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> ...
> 
> No mate, it does more than what you saw from the Admirals.


more to what extent? One shotting marco?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mariko (Jan 16, 2021)

If Luffy's haki is > Marco's, then it's a mid diff. Otherwise it's a draw. 

His firepower is now OHKO level for any regular humans (meaning no borned monsters like Kaidou and BM).

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Ren. (Jan 16, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> more to what extent? One shotting marco?


So for you, there is only superficial damage and one-shot?

 

Again I made 3 threads named respect Marco's name.


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## Ren. (Jan 16, 2021)

Mariko said:


> If Luffy's haki is > Marco's, then it's a mid diff. Otherwise it's a draw.


Stop putting gasoline on the fire you baka.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Bobybobster (Jan 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> So for you, there is only superficial damage and one-shot?
> 
> 
> 
> Again I made 3 threads named respect Marco's name.


you are the one saying the punch will do more than an admirals named attack, I'm just asking how much more? Does the fight continue after a punch like that? Or is the chicken KO'd?


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## Ren. (Jan 16, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> you are the one saying the punch will do more than an admirals named attack, I'm just asking how much more? Does the fight continue after a punch like that? Or is the chicken KO'd?


)

Ningen, named attacks with no COA  of that level means nothing.

Kaido took Kong Organ with 0 damage and was bleeding after g2+g3.  

It is the same if they attack another logia with their strongest move but no haki at all.

Why would yo ask how much?

You think that the fight is one punch and Red Rod is a mid-tier attack, tell me how does Marco feal after a king Kong Gun galling with more advanced COA than Red Roc?


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## Mariko (Jan 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Stop putting gasoline on the fire you baka.



I'm just telling the obvious truth. 

If Luffy can pass through Marco's DF (what haki is known for if strong enough) there's no regen. One must be conscious to use his DF. 

Red rock is > KKG. So imagine KKG + CoA#3.  So if Marco hasn't a barrier haki = Luffy's internal one he's done.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ren. (Jan 16, 2021)

Mariko said:


> Red rock is > KKG. So imagine KKG + CoA#3. So if Marco hasn't a barrier haki = Luffy's internal one he's done.


To Kaido but not overall.

If someone takes that with no special body KKG still has more AP but Kaido's natural resistance to KKG makes it he gets 0 damage.

For Marco is mixed bags.


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## Ren. (Jan 16, 2021)

How I am even debating the quality of COA when we had 1000 and 1001.

Gents read the manga, debate later.


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## Bobybobster (Jan 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> )
> 
> Ningen, named attacks with no COA  of that level means nothing.
> 
> ...


I agree marco gets one shot after the almighty red roc, admirals need some training


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## Ren. (Jan 16, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> I agree marco gets one shot after the almighty red roc, admirals need some training


Your just a padawan.

I mean I even showed you Garp vs Marco and Marco vs the Admirals.

And shocker but Garp is the haki god of the Marines and not the color trio.

See the after panel of when Marco landed, he was forced from beast mode to base by one punch.


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## Mariko (Jan 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> To Kaido but not overall.
> 
> If someone takes that with no special body KKG still has more AP but Kaido's natural resistance to KKG makes it he gets 0 damage.
> 
> For Marco is mixed bags.



Why I said imagine KKG with CoA#3. 

Island level.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Jan 16, 2021)

Mariko said:


> Why I said imagine KKG with CoA#3.
> 
> Island level.


I am asked if Red Roc will KO Marco...

Mates Red Roc is nothing more than an upper G3 move enhanced by g2.

Luffy can probably use a new form of G4 that is based on FS and COA 3.0 and we are debaing Red Roc to see if he can defeat Marco.




And again I see Marco as the strongest high tier from all the commanders only Ben is above him as he is a top tier and a Vice Captain.


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 16, 2021)

It's hard to say actually, currently I think they are equals, with Marco having the edge in experience, but Luffy should be stronger by the end of this arc.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (Jan 16, 2021)

Ren always trying to give Garps feat to luffy...

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2 | Lewd 1


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## Ren. (Jan 16, 2021)

Oh shit, I am trying to give the grandson the feats of his grandpa regarding manifested will power.

Cry some more, Garp is and will always be the strongest Marine in the series, not some shit Logia Admirals.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Bobybobster (Jan 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Your just a padawan.
> 
> I mean I even showed you Garp vs Marco and Marco vs the Admirals.
> 
> ...


what does garp's punch have to do with ruffy?  

What is this logic


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## Beast (Jan 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Oh shit, I am trying to give the grandson the feats of his grandpa regarding manifested will power.
> 
> Cry some more, Garp is and will always be the strongest Marine in the series, not some shit Logia Admirals.


Yeah not how shit works but good try.

Talk about hate... they’re only anime characters.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ren. (Jan 16, 2021)

Beast said:


> Talk about hate... they’re only anime characters.


Yep, you should learn.

I don't care that much, you seem to care so much about marines.

Bye.


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## Beast (Jan 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Yep, you should learn.
> 
> I don't care that much, you seem to care so much about marines.
> 
> Bye.


I should learn what?

how to act as if my fanfic is the canon story?
Or you mean act as if I know Oda and his people like you do?

this is about you trying to give feats out that only one single person has showcased.... You brought up Admirals and Marines, probably because somewhere down the line of your forum life some admiral fan put you on blast and shredded your argument... if I had to guess it was probably an Akainu fan.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Ren. (Jan 16, 2021)

Beast said:


> this is about you trying to give feats out that only one single person has showcased.... You brought up Admirals and Marines, probably because some down the line of your forum life some admiral fan put you on blast and shredded your argument... if I had to guess it was probably an Akainu fan.


When you start reading my posts then we can talk.

But sure I did get shredded or whatever mate.

Now please answer me this, every day you will get triggered by my comments regarding marines?

If so I will not change my post just for you and I advise you you ignore my posts.

Bye.


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## Beast (Jan 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> When you start reading my posts then we can talk.
> 
> But sure I did get shredded or whatever mate.
> 
> ...


You’re have a nervous breakdown... breathe bruh.

YOU brought up Garps feat and tried to give it to luffy and I brought you up on it... now, you simply went on retard mode and started talking about marines and admirals.

Take them off here bruh, seeing as it’s not working for you right now. Find other feats to give luffy bruh, Garps feat is still an exception.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Ren. (Jan 16, 2021)

Mate how many times do you need to talk about me to get that I am not triggered by your shit.
I am laughing at this shit. How many times did you started this with me?
10 times in the past 60 days.

I am out.


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## Beast (Jan 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Mate how many times do you need to talk about me to get that I am not triggered by your shit.
> I am laughing at this shit. How many times did you started this with me?
> 10 times in the past 60 days.
> 
> I am out.


Just quit lying, leave the fanfic and your headcanon behind and just use feats... for someone who acts the way you do, there should be nothing else.


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## OG sama (Jan 16, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> luffy offense > marco's, but people think marco's offense is so low it can't even hurt luffy?


He can definitely hurt him, he isn’t putting him down with anything in his arsenal though and kicking back Admirals doing 0 damage in the process doesn’t suggest this.

I could easily just say with Luffys Kaido hurting attacks Marco shouldn’t be able to shrug those off without his regen being severely seared down.

Marco is like a walking no limit fallacy to his fans, he can’t simply be defeated by normal means and I know that’s absolutely bullshit, you obviously just need time to beat him.


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## OG sama (Jan 16, 2021)

And it’s not about giving Luffy Garps feat, they are the same quality of attack.

Garp through a simple punch at Marco that was more effective than anything the Color trio used against him.

Luffy punched Kaido with G3 and had him bleeding and knocked flat on his ass.

Conclusion: There’s no reason to believe Luffys attack wouldn’t have the same kind of effect on Marco because it’s the exact same kind of attack!!! And Luffy was able to hurt Kaido with it, no reason it shouldn’t have an effect on Marco.

^Dont see how that’s hard to understand


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## Bobybobster (Jan 16, 2021)

So the potency of garps punch that knocked marco out of his zoan form must be the same as red roc, because...they are both punches?  Sounds about right to me


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## OG sama (Jan 16, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> So the potency of garps punch that knocked marco out of his zoan form must be the same as red roc, because...they are both punches?  Sounds about right to me


You didn’t read at all did you?  

It’s the same kind of attack with similar potency, unless you are telling me that Red Roc that hurt Kaido can’t be compared to Garps punch that hurt  Marco?

I don’t even know why I’m explaining simple ass shit to y’all.

Anyone that’s not being biased can see what I’m saying, it wasn’t like Garp was putting his all into that attack on Marco either.


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## Bobybobster (Jan 16, 2021)

OG sama said:


> You didn’t read at all did you?


nah I understand, they are both punches, so they must be the same. 
*Spoiler*: __ 








On a more serious note, obviously marco isn't known for being a tank, he just heals the damage. I'm not too sure how the new coa will interact with him, tbh I don't see how it'd bypass his regen.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## OG sama (Jan 16, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> nah I understand, they are both punches, so they must be the same.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


So I guess you expect Marco to be invincible then? 

If the highest level of Armament Haki isn’t enough then what is??? Not everyone has the Yami Yami or Seastone at their disposal.

Like I said before, Marco might as well just be a walking no limit fallacy.


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## Bobybobster (Jan 16, 2021)

OG sama said:


> So I guess you expect Marco to be invincible then?


Stop being silly, we know his fruit has limits, it's just not been explored fully so debating it can be a pain.


OG sama said:


> If the highest level of Armament Haki isn’t enough then what is??? Not everyone has the Yami Yami or Seastone at their disposal.
> 
> Like I said before, Marco might as well just be a walking no limit fallacy.


Enough to what? The new haki will do even more damage, yes. But how is that bypassing his regen/df is what I'm wondering.


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## OG sama (Jan 16, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> Stop being silly, we know his fruit has limits, it's just not been explored fully so debating it can be a pain.
> 
> Enough to what? The new haki will do even more damage, yes. But how is that bypassing his regen/df is what I'm wondering.


I understand you, honestly who knows? I’m not even sure why Marco takes attacks from anyone with relatively any drawbacks.

His fruit needs some actual explaining.


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## Sloan (Jan 16, 2021)

It's possible Marco wasn't coating his face with CoA when Garp hit him, he was surprised by the attack.  Characters most likely don't have their body coated with Haki 24/7, since it runs out.


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## Corax (Jan 16, 2021)

At this point should be Luffy I think.


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## Beast (Jan 16, 2021)

Sloan said:


> It's possible Marco wasn't coating his face with CoA when Garp hit him, he was surprised by the attack.  Characters most likely don't have their body coated with Haki 24/7, since it runs out.


It’s not about haki only though... Marco was knocked out of his Zoan form along with not being able to insta heal.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## OG sama (Jan 16, 2021)

This is why Oda needs to just explain Marcos fruit, assuming he’s just going to heal all day for days on end is just straight retarded.

Nobody is going to want to fight him if it theoretically took that long, and everyone just assumes because the Admirals weren’t able to deal with him easily then attacks from people weaker have no hope, it’s just stupid.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 16, 2021)

OG sama said:


> This is why Oda needs to just explain Marcos fruit, assuming he’s just going to heal all day for days on end is just straight retarded.
> 
> Nobody is going to want to fight him if it theoretically took that long, and everyone just assumes because the Admirals weren’t able to deal with him easily then attacks from people weaker have no hope, it’s just stupid.


What is stupid, the idea that Marco could fight an Admiral for days?

It's already been established that fights last that long. It took 5 days for someone as weak as Jack to be out of fighting shape, it took 10 days for Akainu and Aokiji's fight to end. And Marco has a fruit that is specialized for lasting a very long time, way more than Akainu/Aokiji.

I think Roger/Whitebeard would beat him in under a day because they would overwhelm him. Theoretically, if you could overwhelm him I think you can beat him in a digestible period of time. I would even go as far as to say that if you are just decidedly above him that it wouldn't take days and days to end the fight.

It's possible that haki can overcome his fruit, like with the Garp example. However, that doesn't mean he can't heal instantly afterwards.
For matchup purposes, his fruit is really powerful against ability users. One of Kizaru's higher-end attacks did absoloutely nothing against Marco. That is a fact. So a match between the two would be favorable for Marco if they were close at all in other areas.
Kaido's beam would also do nothing (if he even uses it in a serious fight).
This is all assuming non-haki based attacks don't work while haki-based attacks do.

I don't mean this in any crude way, but you really come off as pedantic when discussing such simple matters. At the end of the day, of course Marco's fruit doesn't make him god. He's Whitebeard's underling, and isn't implied to be at the absoloute tippity top of the world in strength. However he does it, Oda will make him beatable. And that would even be the case if he ends up being merely "Katakuri level", that is to say, someone who would be ragdolled around by G4 physically, and someone who won't even try and attack a G3 with a regular punch (which we see people like Yamato and Fujitora do casually)


OG sama said:


> He can definitely hurt him, he isn’t putting him down with anything in his arsenal though and kicking back Admirals doing 0 damage in the process doesn’t suggest this.


Hoping this is one of the last times I have to say this, but this line of reasoning is simply not how powerscaling works.

If Marco can engage in a wrestling match with x and kick them through their guard flying, we can sumise that his physical strength is at least comparable to x. Just like how Shanks, Akainu or Kizaru physically engaging with Whitebeard implies a certain level of strength. We can also use Marco physically engaging with Big Mom, because that is what happened, as a way to scale Marco's physical strength.
In basic terms, it is not a statement of bias against Katakuri, Luffy or whomever you say I am being biased against, it is simply a surface level reading of what is in the manga.
Like I said earlier, if Luffy were to display a simlar feat - wrestling down an Admiral - I would have to say that he is physically comparable to them in some sense. Luffy overpowering Fujitora is not useful because in the next chapter Fujitora is easily parrying G3 and not getting pushed back by it at all. Which also follows the theme that Fujitora was not at all serious during DR, something hinted over and over during the arc. 
Never is it implied that Kizaru wasn't trying to push back against Marco, like Fujitora clearly wasn't trying to pushback of G3.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 16, 2021)

Beast said:


> It’s not about haki only though... Marco was knocked out of his Zoan form along with not being able to insta heal.


G3 knocked Kaido's ass all the way out of his fruit as well.

I don't think he needed to heal the bruise on his cheek. I mean give him at least a little time, he was in awe of the man known as the fist.


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## Lord Melkor (Jan 16, 2021)

I cannot imagine current Luffy losing against Marco if serious, there is a reason Luffy not Marco is fighting Kaidou and should have biggest contribution to his defeat.

I think he definately surpassed Marco with Udon training, before this it would be close.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## OG sama (Jan 16, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> What is stupid, the idea that Marco could fight an Admiral for days?
> 
> It's already been established that fights last that long. It took 5 days for someone as weak as Jack to be out of fighting shape, it took 10 days for Akainu and Aokiji's fight to end. And Marco has a fruit that is specialized for lasting a very long time, way more than Akainu/Aokiji.
> 
> ...


Luffy knocked Kaido on his ass with G3 and had blood coming out the mans nose and mouth. He stated that the attacked DAMAGED him.

So Luffy doesn’t need to prove shit to your stubborn ass, he’s already damaged a Top Tier, where in the manga did Akainu, Kizaru, and Aokiji state this about any of Marcos attacks????

I will fucking wait.

Kizaru mocked Marcos attacks, Kaido said Luffys attack damaged him and had him pondering whether Luffy could be as good as the greatest pirates in OP history.

^Where’s Marcos hype of this at???

Like I said, you can’t pick and choose the shit you want to be acceptable and what’s not.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 16, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Luffy knocked Kaido on his ass with G3 and had blood coming out the mans nose and mouth. He stated that the attacked DAMAGED him.
> 
> So Luffy doesn’t need to prove shit to your stubborn ass, he’s already damaged a Top Tier, where in the manga did Akainu, Kizaru, and Aokiji state this about any of Marcos attacks????
> 
> ...




Ok, have a great day!


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## Beast (Jan 16, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> G3 knocked Kaido's ass all the way out of his fruit as well.
> 
> I don't think he needed to heal the bruise on his cheek. I mean give him at least a little time, he was in awe of the man known as the fist.


But he did not break Kaidous scales, Marco was unable to heal while also getting knocked out of his Zoan form.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 16, 2021)

Beast said:


> But he did not break Kaidous scales, Marco was unable to heal while also getting knocked out of his Zoan form.


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## Lord Stark (Jan 17, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Luffy knocked Kaido on his ass with G3 and had blood coming out the mans nose and mouth. He stated that the attacked DAMAGED him.
> 
> So Luffy doesn’t need to prove shit to your stubborn ass, he’s already damaged a Top Tier, where in the manga did Akainu, Kizaru, and Aokiji state this about any of Marcos attacks????
> 
> ...



Re-read the chapter fool.  Marco stomps.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 4 | Winner 1 | Creative 1


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 17, 2021)

Lord Stark said:


> Re-read the chapter fool.  Marco stomps.

Reactions: GODA 1


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## Corax (Jan 17, 2021)

Now Luffy should be able to outlast Marco since as it seems his base and lower gears are even better than previous G4 (going by  Red Roc feat and Bagua tank/dodge feat). So he won't have much problems and should be able to eventually outlast his regen even in base and lower gears.


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## Turrin (Jan 17, 2021)

Luffy will be >= Marco by the end of the arc but not just yet.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 17, 2021)

He’s showing similar effectiveness as Marco against opponents of a similar level I would say they are around the same level until more is shown from Luffy .

Reactions: Like 1


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## Yumi Zoro (Jan 17, 2021)

Tenma said:


> Marco's a beast who'd absolutely shit on any other Supernova on the roof atm
> 
> but Luffy's big chad energy is just too much. He's clearly the strongest member of the alliance right now.



Once Zoro will turn his sword black he will be the second strongest in the alliance.


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## Nikseng (Jan 19, 2021)

They are comparable.

I'm going with Marco extreme diff for now and Luffy extreme diff post Wano.

Reactions: Like 1


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## OG sama (Jan 19, 2021)

Luffys attack was so strong it had Kaido pondering whether Luffy had the potential to be as good as the greatest pirates in OP history....

Marco has no hype matching that, where Marco is strong Luffy is simply stronger at the moment, and as we are getting more and more into this Yonko fight while Marco is at the bottom possibly struggling with King this is going to be so much more apparent.

Marcos fruit is so great at healing that he can look good against anyone, because he wouldn’t be one shot material due to the nature of his fruit, obviously his base durability and endurance is at least high tier level but his fruit makes that Top Tier. If he was the complete package, he would be the strongest character in the series, and that’s exactly why he’s probably not going to be great offensively.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 19, 2021)

Yea going with Luffy at this point.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 19, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Luffys attack was so strong it had Kaido pondering whether Luffy had the potential to be as good as the greatest pirates in OP history....
> 
> Marco has no hype matching that, where Marco is strong Luffy is simply stronger at the moment, and as we are getting more and more into this Yonko fight while Marco is at the bottom possibly struggling with King this is going to be so much more apparent.
> 
> Marcos fruit is so great at healing that he can look good against anyone, because he wouldn’t be one shot material due to the nature of his fruit, obviously his base durability and endurance is at least high tier level but his fruit makes that Top Tier. If he was the complete package, he would be the strongest character in the series, and that’s exactly why he’s probably not going to be great offensively.


It's not about feats. Marco hasn't done anything, neither has Dragon, neither has Kizaru, neither has a billion characters.
It's about portrayal. Marco's portrayal suggests he's on par with Admirals and top-tiers.

Since you are so ADAMANT about this, make the portrayal argument. I KNOW YOU CANT, because every time I push you, you go back to "hes done 0 to admirals". Which I have no feasible way of proving the opposite of.


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## OG sama (Jan 19, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> It's not about feats. Marco hasn't done anything, neither has Dragon, neither has Kizaru, neither has a billion characters.
> It's about portrayal. Marco's portrayal suggests he's on par with Admirals and top-tiers.
> 
> Since you are so ADAMANT about this, make the portrayal argument. I KNOW YOU CANT, because every time I push you, you go back to "hes done 0 to admirals". Which I have no feasible way of proving the opposite of.


His portrayal isn’t greater than Current Luffys that all that needs to be said, Luffy is going to play a major part in Kaidos defeat, Marco is going to most likely be fighting King in a 1v1 extremely tough battle....

Thatss clear better portrayal right there, and he’s already done more damage to Kaido, a Top Tier, the WSC and a guy most put above the Admirals.

Kizaru who shouldn’t be as strong as Kaido is physically was mocking Marcos attacks and was not worried in the slightest, Luffy knocked a Kaido who was looking right at him on his ass with G3 and the attack was stated by Kaido to have damaged him and he wondered if Luffy had the potential to be one of the greats because of said punch.

Marco isn’t Admiral level man, he has a fruit that’s perfect to stall guys above his level that’s no knock against him but he’s not well rounded enough to be an Admiral level guy.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 19, 2021)

OG sama said:


> His portrayal isn’t greater than Current Luffys that all that needs to be said, Luffy is going to play a major part in Kaidos defeat, Marco is going to most likely be fighting King in a 1v1 extremely tough battle....


If that were the case, Marco would be weaker than CURRENT KILLER.

This is just a feeling you have. You're arguing from emotion, because you have no supporting evidence to your claims.



OG sama said:


> Thatss clear better portrayal right there, and he’s already done more damage to Kaido, a Top Tier, the WSC and a guy most put above the Admirals.


Damage is not portrayal. It's feats, get on topic.



OG sama said:


> Kizaru who shouldn’t be as strong as Kaido is physically was mocking Marcos attacks


This is just a blatant smear.

Marco and Kizaru were back and forth trolling each other.


OG sama said:


> and was not worried in the slightest, Luffy knocked a Kaido who was looking right at him on his ass with G3 and the attack was stated by Kaido to have damaged him and he wondered if Luffy had the potential to be one of the greats because of said punch.


Feats, feats, and more feats. Do you have anything fresh to say? if you're so adamant, and ready to bump these threads every few hours, you must bring something more credible up.



OG sama said:


> Marco isn’t Admiral level man, he has a fruit that’s perfect to stall guys above his level that’s no knock against him but he’s not well rounded enough to be an Admiral level guy.


Didn't ask for your opinion. Give a strong argument. One based on portrayal.

For example, when I say "Kizaru hasn't done anything" and "Dragon hasn't done anything", you say "well they are IMPLIED to be this strong". That's what I'm doing with Marco, and you haven't given one STRONG argument as to why Marco isn't impled to be Admiral level.

Reactions: Like 1


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## OG sama (Jan 19, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> If that were the case, Marco would be weaker than CURRENT KILLER.
> 
> This is just a feeling you have. You're arguing from emotion, because you have no supporting evidence to your claims.
> 
> ...


The Current Killer doesn’t equal the Current Luffy, like at all... the only person on the rooftop strong enough to beat WBs Top 3 right now is in fact Luffy. Killer did 0 damage to Kaido with Zoros help, Killer felt like the group had a chance BECAUSE of what Luffy was able to do to Kaido, there’s plenty of proof of Luffys hype and portrayal being above Marcos. You just don’t want to accept it!!!! That’s it!!! That’s all it is to it!!

The fuck are you talking about??? If I can hurt a Top Tier and you can’t that’s better feats and therefore better portrayal by association. You absolutely have no counter to my arguments so you are trying to be super technical like you don’t understand something as simple as this.

They were mocking each other attacks because  Marco has a fruit that heals damage, but that’s something he won’t be able to do forever because his fruit has weaknesses. If Marco could go on all day and heal then who would beat him? You aren’t thinking about this shit, you are taking all his feats at face value. Like you always do, using the shitty logic that because the Admirals couldn’t stop him nobody below that level can, beating Marco takes TIME. The Admirals were fighting in a WAR, they couldn’t be focused on Marco at all times for a regen cap to even be met. In a Luffy vs Marco battle all Luffy would need to focus on is just Marco. But you don’t acknowledge that stuff because you don’t know how to debate.

I bring much more credibility to any claim I make then you do and that’s just facts, I actually go in depth with how I feel about something and form a logical opinion, you use that no limit fallacy shit to wank Marco and his abilities. With your logic, Marco shouldn’t lose to anyone not even his own captain.

How in tf can you be Admiral level but yet you can hurt another Admiral? You don’t know how stupid you make yourself sound. You think Fujitora can’t hurt Kizaru or Kizaru can’t hurt Aokiji?? Marco couldn’t hurt any Top Tiers with his so called great offensive power where as his fruit was a hindrance to deal with by Admirals because they needed the time to actually focus on him and his regen. No one else can heal like Marco can, so Marco not hurting anyone with his offensive prowess when he’s the only one who can heal is absolutely pathetic.

Marco has feats of not doing shit to Top Tiers, we have yet to see Dragon even fight yet. Your logic is absolutely shitty as fuck. Absolute shit just throw it in the trash.

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Rp4lyf (Jan 19, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> If that were the case, Marco would be weaker than CURRENT KILLER.
> 
> This is just a feeling you have. You're arguing from emotion, because you have no supporting evidence to your claims.
> 
> ...


Garp is why Marco is not admiral level.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 19, 2021)

OG sama said:


> The Current Killer doesn’t equal the Current Luffy, like at all... the only person on the rooftop strong enough to beat WBs Top 3 right now is in fact Luffy. Killer did 0 damage to Kaido with Zoros help, Killer felt like the group had a chance BECAUSE of what Luffy was able to do to Kaido, there’s plenty of proof of Luffys hype and portrayal being above Marcos. You just don’t want to accept it!!!! That’s it!!! That’s all it is to it!!


The argument you're making is that because Luffy is going to play a part in defeating Kaido, that means he has better portrayal than Marco who is going to be fighting a commander. Killer is also on the roof fighting Kaido.

This is a shaky argument at best.


OG sama said:


> The fuck are you talking about??? If I can hurt a Top Tier and you can’t that’s better feats and therefore better portrayal by association.


You're wrong.

Feats are not portrayal by association or whatever. Feats are feats, portrayal is portrayal

Dragon has done NOTHING. But we consider him strong because he has PORTRAYAL of being that strong.


OG sama said:


> They were mocking each other attacks because  Marco has a fruit that heals damage, but that’s something he won’t be able to do forever because his fruit has weaknesses. If Marco could go on all day and heal then who would beat him? You aren’t thinking about this shit, you are taking all his feats at face value. Like you always do, using the shitty logic that because the Admirals couldn’t stop him nobody below that level can, beating Marco takes TIME. The Admirals were fighting in a WAR, they couldn’t be focused on Marco at all times for a regen cap to even be met. In a Luffy bs Marco battle all Luffy would need to focus on is just Marco. But you don’t acknowledge that stuff because you don’t know how to debate.


Stop meandering.


OG sama said:


> I bring much more credibility to any claim I make then you do and that’s just facts, I actually go in depth with how I feel about something and form a logical opinion, you sued that no limit fallacy shit to wank Marco and his abilities. With your logic, Marco shouldn’t lose to anyone not even his own captain.


I have never used a no limit fallacy on Marco. This is a dream you had, because everytime I talk about him I make it very clear that his fruit won't help him against people stronger than himself.


OG sama said:


> How in tf can you be Admiral level but yet you can hurt another Admiral?


You really can't make this up.

When has Dragon hurt an Admiral? How can he be Admiral level?


OG sama said:


> You don’t know how stupid you make yourself sound. You think Fujitora can’t hurt Kizaru or Kizaru can’t hurt Aokiji??


You think Marco can't hurt an Admiral?


OG sama said:


> Marco couldn’t hurt any Top Tiers with his so called great offensive power where as his fruit was a hindrance to deal with by Admirals because they needed the time to actually focus on him and his regen. No one else can heal like Marco can, so Marco not hurting anyone with his offensive prowess when he’s the only one who can heal is absolutely pathetic.


What's pathetic is Big Mom not even capturing the strawhats after a 30 chapter chase. That's pathetic.


OG sama said:


> Marco has feats of not doing shit to Top Tiers


That's not a coherent sentence.


OG sama said:


> , we have yet to see Dragon even fight yet. Your logic is absolutely shitty as fuck. Absolute shit just throw it in the trash.


So? Why are you making up that Dragon is strong? We have no feats for that.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 19, 2021)

Rp4lyf said:


> Garp is why Marco is not admiral level.


I don't understand.


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## Mylesime (Jan 19, 2021)

Yeah it's biased as fuck and and not coherent in terms of logic.
Basically:
1)Marco can't hurt an admiral and people as strong or stronger than one, because he did not showcase it on panel. ( also let's not take into account how their fruits enhanced their attacks)

2) While luffy could obviously overcome Marco's defense despite several top tiers failing to do so on panel. (Also let's explain it almost exclusively by his fruit)
Textbook definition of a double standard.

When Marco goes all out, if he has advanced armement. None of that will stand. And having seen the only first mate who got an all out fight on panel , use awakening and advanced observation. There is a huge chance Marco's got far more than what was showcased at Marineford.

Reactions: Like 1


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## OG sama (Jan 19, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> The argument you're making is that because Luffy is going to play a part in defeating Kaido, that means he has better portrayal than Marco who is going to be fighting a commander. Killer is also on the roof fighting Kaido.
> 
> This is a shaky argument at best.
> 
> ...


You are absolutely hopeless.

Luffy literally beat a guy who should be on Kings general level last arc, if Marco is struggling to beat this dude then Marco isn’t Admiral level. I don’t care if you think Katakuri is a little weaker than King or not, the difference between the two should be very small. Luffy is going to be dealing crucial damage to Kaido, a guy who would beat King and probably all his calamities at the same time with little issue.... that’s wayy more impressive than Marco barely beating King in an extremely difficult battle which it would be because Oda isn’t going to have King look as bad as he has looked not even close.

Man you are just a blind Marco fanboy, I have explained this shit over and over to you a million times and you just refuse to accept it. Now you are going off on some tangent bringing other guys into it to justify Marcos garbage ass feats of supposedly being Admiral level because you know it’s bullshit.

Can’t wait to shut your ass up with these coming chapters when Sanji shows up to have to save Marcos ass. Then everything I have tried to explain to you will hit your ass in the face, the painful truth that you don’t want to admit, and that’s Marco not being Admiral level.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## OG sama (Jan 19, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Yeah it's biased as fuck and and not coherent in terms of logic.
> Basically:
> 1)Marco can't hurt an admiral and people as strong or stronger than one, because he did not showcased it on panel. ( also let's not take into account how their fruits enhanced their attacks)
> 
> ...


Luffy hurt a Top Tier known for being near invulnerable, so please do explain to me how one can injure  Kaido but not hurt fucking Marco.

Y’all fanboys absolutely just pick and choose what y’all want to be acceptable.

This is shit you hear out my mouth that you can find in the manga, I’m not making shit up or taking educated guesses like y’all are, definitely don’t compare me to y’all assuming Marco can hurt Top Tiers when there’s tons of panels of him trying and not doing shit.

Best take that up with Oda if you don’t like it, no bias here just facts.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 19, 2021)

OG sama said:


> You are absolutely hopeless.
> 
> Luffy literally beat a guy who should be on Kings general level last arc, if Marco is struggling to beat this dude then Marco isn’t Admiral level.


It's possible King is stronger.

We also don't know that they will fight conclusively yet, so stop appealing to it without proof.


OG sama said:


> I don’t care if you think Katakuri is a little weaker than King or not, the difference between the two should be very small. *Luffy is going to be dealing crucial damage to Kaido*, a guy who would beat King and probably all his calamities at the same time with little issue....


Can I try making up my own story?

Zoro will be dealing crucial damage to Kaido, and it's my belief that he will fight King. How does that make Marco look? Like someone who can deal crucial damage to Kaido?



OG sama said:


> Man you are just a blind Marco fanboy


> I'm blind.

> I read Marineford and totally thought the Admirals were leagues above the Whitebeard commanders.

> I am the blinded one.


OG sama said:


> , I have explained this shit over and over to you a million times and you just refuse to accept it. Now you are going off on some tangent bringing other guys into it to justify Marcos garbage ass feats of supposedly being Admiral level because you know it’s bullshit.


You're literally ranting.

I asked you to make one strong argument as to why Marco is not implied to be Admiral level from every appearance we see him.


OG sama said:


> Can’t wait to shut your ass up with these coming chapters when Sanji shows up to have to save Marcos ass. Then everything I have tried to explain to you will hit your ass in the face, the painful truth that you don’t want to admit, and that’s Marco not being Admiral level.


I am welcoming Marco being Sanji level.

I always want to learn more about what Oda is writing.


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## Mylesime (Jan 19, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Luffy hurt a Top Tier known for being near invulnerable, so please do explain to me how one can injure  Kaido but not hurt fucking Marco.
> 
> Y’all fanboys absolutely just pick and choose what y’all want to be acceptable.
> 
> ...



Do you read what you're writting.
Don't you realize the contradiction.
Of course you're taking educated guesses.
Like when you say that Luffy can hurt Marco. Of course he can, but you're deducing it.

  On the other hand you refuse to think clearly, to be coherent when it comes to Marco, taking everything at face value.

You're biased.
If luffy cn hurt Kaido , will beat Kaido despite his insane defense. Of course he can hurt Marco.
On the other hand if Joz can hurt a top tier, if Vista can stale Mihawk, if Bg Mom thinks that she needs to be at full strength with her homies , and would struggle to beat him.
If Izo a subordinate can hurt top tiers.
It's almost absurd to think that marco can't hurt top tiers either.

Let me ask you something.
Is it possible that Marco can use advanced armement or can awakn his fruit?


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## OG sama (Jan 19, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> It's possible King is stronger.
> 
> We also don't know that they will fight conclusively yet, so stop appealing to it without proof.
> 
> ...


Zoros going to be injuring Kaido with either Advanced Haki or by the fact that Enma can draw out more Ryou to hurt him. Marco has no Advanced Haki feats or an Enma to justify this claim and if Marcos  not going to participate in the Kaido battle at all, then you are going to be hard pressed to prove that he can do so with no evidence.

I have used evidence you are just blind.

Sanji is going to come in and help Marco out so he won’t have to fight King and Queen by his self, that’s all I’m saying and that’s just what I personally feel will happen. Sanji fights Queen, Marco fights King, simple.


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## OG sama (Jan 19, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Do you read what you're writting.
> Don't you realize the contradiction.
> Of course you're taking educated guesses.
> Like when you say that Luffy can hurt Marco. Of course he can, but you're deducing it.
> ...


Marco and Vista couldn’t hurt Akainu working together and Marco kicked both Kizaru and Aokiji away and did no damage and Kizaru mocked his offensive despite not having a fruit to heal like Marco does from damage.

Im not wrong to assume he can’t do it when we have a whole arc showing  him not being capable. Jozu got a cheap shot on Aokiji and only managed a lip bleed, he is a diamond man so it’s entirely possible is offensive is just better than Marcos is as Diamond is some of the strongest material in the world.

BM couldn’t deal with his regen easy with no Homies which he hard countered. He won’t have that same luxury against Kaido.

Izo has Advanced Haki but that doesn’t mean Marco would, Ace sailed on that same ship with Izo and his Haki was average. Marco has his own way of fighting he might have not felt the need to learn Advanced Haki because if he was a beast at it, he would be the strongest character in the series.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 19, 2021)

@OG sama

The reason I believe Marco is strong is because of his portrayal. Not what may or may not happen in the future, not what little damage he did to Admirals, none of that, simply what he has been throughout his appearances in the manga. Not just Marco, the entire Whitebeard pirates.

 You have failed each time I asked you to give a valid reason as to why Marco is not portrayed this way. All you have given me is your STORY for events we HAVENT EVEN SEEN yet. You see what's wrong about that?

Let me ask you a question, why is Dragon strong? Don't deflect, give me your answer.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 19, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Izo has Advanced Haki but that doesn’t mean Marco would, Ace sailed on that same ship with Izo and his Haki was average. Marco has his own way of fighting he might have not felt the need to learn Advanced Haki because if he was a beast at it, he would be the strongest character in the series.


Mega fail.

Izo learned advanced haki on Whitebeard's ship. Marco is the strongest on that ship and doesn't have it apparently.

COA3, fine. But we haven't seen anyone but Rayleigh, Luffy and maybe Sabo use that.

This is hilarious.


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## OG sama (Jan 19, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> @OG sama
> 
> The reason I believe Marco is strong is because of his portrayal. Not what may or may not happen in the future, not what little damage he did to Admirals, none of that, simply what he has been throughout his appearances in the manga. Not just Marco, the entire Whitebeard pirates.
> 
> ...


Fine

Let’s just see how this plays out in the coming chapters, if he’s Admiral level then I will admit it.

I don’t hate the guy I just don’t think he’s Admiral level and I don’t think his feats quite show that.

What exactly do you expect to see from Marco in these next few chapters that’s going to really write home him being that strong?

Why do you feel as though Marco needs to be the strongest guy on the good guys side? Over even Luffy who he’s putting his faith in to win this war for them?


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## Mylesime (Jan 19, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Marco and Vista couldn’t hurt Akainu working together and Marco kicked both Kizaru and Aokiji away and did no damage and Kizaru mocked his offensive despite not having a fruit to heal like Marco does from damage.


Killer or Law failed to hurt Kaido last chapter.
Doesn't mean they can't.
Killet is about to hurt seriously Kaido probably, and we're suposed to believe that Vista can't hurt Aka inu?
He failed to hurt them on those instances, doesn't mean he can't.
Like they obviously can hurt him despite failing to so during those clashes.
You always chose the worst outcome possible for Marco.
Possible but you could be wrong too.
I think you are.



OG sama said:


> Im not wrong to assume he can’t do it when we have a whole arc showing  him not being capable. Jozu got a cheap shot on Aokiji and only managed a lip bleed, he is a diamond man so it’s entirely possible is offensive is just better than Marcos is as Diamond is some of the strongest material in the world.


This wasn't Joz best attack potentially. 
Marco could very well have worse offense than Joz, but to the point to being unable to hurt a top tier while Joz can?
Despite Joz excellent defense.
Possible. But probable?
Don't think so.



OG sama said:


> BM couldn’t deal with his regen easy with no Homies which he hard countered. He won’t have that same luxury against Kaido.
> 
> Izo has Advanced Haki but that doesn’t mean Marco would, Ace sailed on that same ship with Izo and his Haki was average. Marco has his own way of fighting he might have not felt the need to learn Advanced Haki because if he was a beast at it, he would be the strongest character in the series.



Izo having advanced armement doesn't mean Marco does.
However doesn't mean he doesn't either.
You always take the worst outcome....
He would not, the admiral and most top tiers can deal with Marco advanced armement or not, heck most of them have it or means to compensate.


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## OG sama (Jan 19, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Mega fail.
> 
> Izo learned advanced haki on Whitebeard's ship. Marco is the strongest on that ship and doesn't have it apparently.
> 
> ...


I explained my reasoning behind that, you don’t like it I don’t care.

Marco is a defensive fighter much like Katakuri is an evasive fighter who isn’t great endurance wise.

Marco is not invincible for a reason, you got it in your head that Marco has it all, but there’s nothing suggesting this. Marco isn’t invincible just like Katakuri isnt.


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## VileNotice (Jan 19, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> The argument you're making is that because Luffy is going to play a part in defeating Kaido, that means he has better portrayal than Marco who is going to be fighting a commander. Killer is also on the roof fighting Kaido.
> 
> This is a shaky argument at best.
> 
> ...



I don't think anyone would disagree with BM being more pathetic than Marco ... for his weight class he has been incredibly useful and adaptable.



Mylesime said:


> Yeah it's biased as fuck and and not coherent in terms of logic.
> Basically:
> 1)Marco can't hurt an admiral and people as strong or stronger than one, because he did not showcased it on panel. ( also let's not take into account how their fruits enhanced their attacks)
> 
> ...



It's not only that Marco didn't showcase hurting an admiral on panel, it's that he failed to hurt all 3 of the color trio upon making physical impact with them, including a surprise attack. Dragon hasn't hurt an admiral on panel but he also hasn't tried and failed. Portrayal holds a character up but once they show on panel they can't cut it, you go by the feats. We haven't seen Luffy hit Marco so we have to go off his other offensive feats and portrayal for that, such as damaging Kaido, a durability freak, with one of his lesser forms. While Marco being unable to hurt top tiers thus far doesn't mean he can't hurt Luffy, I think it means he would be doing really low damage to him compared to something like a partial Thunder Bagua to the head which Luffy just took with little issue, for example. 

Would things go differently with current Marco? It's possible, his skirmish with BM could hint at some growth, but I don't think he has gone from being unable to hurt an admiral to being equal to one. More likely to me he is hovering slightly below where Luffy is now, whereas in MF he was closer to Katakuri. Luffy is the one leading this raid after all, he is the one who was called a fifth emperor when Marco never was considered one despite the open spot after WB's death. I also think Teach was admiral level or weaker when he fought Marco over the timeskip (he had recently run from Akainu) and we all know how that ended.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## OG sama (Jan 19, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Killer or Law failed to hurt Kaido last chapter.
> Doesn't mean they can't.
> Killet is about to hurt seriously Kaido probably, and we're suposed to believe that Vista can't hurt Aka inu?
> He failed to hurt them on those instances, doesn't mean he can't.
> ...


We shall see then, it’s one thing to have Advanced Armament and not be great at it too. Marco is a pure defensive fighter, Katakuri didn’t have it all so Marcos probably not going to be a perfect combatant either.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 19, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Fine
> 
> Let’s just see how this plays out in the coming chapters, if he’s Admiral level then I will admit it.
> 
> I don’t hate the guy I just don’t think he’s Admiral level and I don’t think his feats quite show that.


Glad you see my perspective.


OG sama said:


> What exactly do you expect to see from Marco in these next few chapters that’s going to really write home him being that strong?
> 
> Why do you feel as though Marco needs to be the strongest guy on the good guys side? Over even Luffy who he’s putting his faith in to win this war for them?


I have no idea.

Franky is about to fight Sasaki, someone who should be even stronger than Doflamingo, a guy who is confident in challenging a calamity for a spot. I don't know what will happen next.


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## OG sama (Jan 19, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Glad you see my perspective.
> 
> I have no idea.
> 
> Franky is about to fight Sasaki, someone who should be even stronger than Doflamingo, a guy who is confident in challenging a calamity for a spot. I don't know what will happen next.


Sasaki isn’t stronger than Doflamingo lol, Doflamingo should be relatively Jack level.

Whos Who should be stronger than Sasaki let alone Doflamingo. No way Mingo wouldn’t even be the strongest F6, you are selling him hella short.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 19, 2021)

OG sama said:


> I explained my reasoning behind that, you don’t like it I don’t care.
> 
> Marco is a defensive fighter much like Katakuri is an evasive fighter who isn’t great endurance wise.
> 
> Marco is not invincible for a reason, you got it in your head that Marco has it all, but there’s nothing suggesting this. Marco isn’t invincible just like Katakuri isnt.


Now that we can see eye to eye, I will tell you what I think Marco is.

I don't think he's a 'defensive fighter', just like how Jozu isn't a defensive fighter yet has a defensive fruit. His offense has been greatly emphasized, I have absoloutely no reason to believe Marco's offense isn't also great.

From MY perspective, the way Marco kicked Kizaru through the sky in a bolt of lighting to crash down into a massive explosion is pretty clearly portryaing Marco as a really fucking strong guy offensively. Do you realize the hype levels Kizaru had at the time? And Marco kicked this man down like that?

Comparing him to Katakuri is eh. Luffy literally said that WITHOUT HIS OBSERVATION he is nothing to g4. It was highlighted that the reason he was so powerful was because of his broken ability. Marco was never talked about that way, and it's never been implied that Marco is invincible the  same way Katakuri is to pretty much anyone not a commander or not top-tier.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 19, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Sasaki isn’t stronger than Doflamingo lol, Doflamingo should be relatively Jack level.
> 
> Whos Who should be stronger than Sasaki let alone Doflamingo. No way Mingo wouldn’t even be the strongest F6, you are selling him hella short.


Sasaki is clearly portrayed with WW. He was also implied to be a threat to Yamato who has shown G3+ power. You realize that is a form that Katakuri wasn't even confident fighting without enlarging his body? And Doflamingo avoided all direct contact with?


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## Mylesime (Jan 19, 2021)

VileNotice said:


> I don't think anyone would disagree with BM being more pathetic than Marco ... for his weight class he has been incredibly useful and adaptable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But based on the same principle you would have to think that the admirals are unable to seriously injure Marco because all three of them failed, despite Kizaru getting an assisted free hit.
We will be able to have clear idea once Marco shows what he's got.
Could change a lot of judgements.

I think that Marco is very close to Luffy currently and he wasn't called an emperor nor became one because Teach beat him.
That's how Blackbeard became the 4th Yonkou, and why Marco is a step below them.
I absolutely believe that Marco can seriously injure Luffy in battle to death.
We'll soon see.


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 19, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> I think that Marco is very close to Luffy currently and he wasn't called an emperor nor became one because Teach beat him.
> That's how Blackbeard became the 4th Yonkou, and why Marco is a step below them.


I disagree. While Marco would indeed be the 4th Yonko if BB didn't exist, that would be because of WB's crew following him, and WB's territory's people respecting and acknowledging him.

If he was a random pirate with a random powerful crew, I don't think he'd be able to fight for a yonko spot. The other 3 would just take over WB's territories and become the Sanko (?)


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## Mylesime (Jan 19, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> I disagree. While Marco would indeed be the 4th Yonko if BB didn't exist, that would be because of WB's crew following him, and WB's territory's people respecting and acknowledging him.
> 
> If he was a random pirate with a random powerful crew, I don't think he'd be able to fight for a yonko spot. The other 3 would just take over WB's territories and become the Sanko (?)



He would be the weakest Yonkou for me in that situation.
Don't get why you highlight his crew, it's like with his devil fruit.
Have you seen the yonkous crew? Do you see who follows them, and what Luffy had to bring?
You have to have a massive following to be a yonkou. Hence why Shanks officers were wanked, and why someone like Who's who on Kaido's crew can put up a fight against Jinbei.


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## VileNotice (Jan 19, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> But based on the same principle you would have to think that the admirals are unable to seriously injure Marco because all three of them failed, despite Kizaru getting in assisted free hit.
> We will be able to have clear idea once Marco shows what he's got.
> Could change a lot of judgement.
> 
> ...


Marco regenerating the damage they dealt out to him isn't the same as the admirals not taking damage when they don't have healing or defensive fruits. We know that his regen has a limit, and we know that he took decent damage from Kizaru when he was seastoned, which to me illustrates the sort of damage an admiral can do to him once they whittle down his regeneration (again, with no real fear of being hurt by Marco in the process). Marco also left Marineford with a head bandage, which probably came from Garp but I don't consider old Garp stronger than the color trio, perhaps just a better matchup against regen.

As for Marco vs Luffy I think he would cause serious damage to him over time (because it would be a long and drawn out battle) but his individual attacks wouldn't be that strong on their own. Not strong enough to give him the win at least.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## OG sama (Jan 19, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Now that we can see eye to eye, I will tell you what I think Marco is.
> 
> I don't think he's a 'defensive fighter', just like how Jozu isn't a defensive fighter yet has a defensive fruit. His offense has been greatly emphasized, I have absoloutely no reason to believe Marco's offense isn't also great.
> 
> ...


It’s the exact same thing, you strip Marco of his regen or find a way around it like Katakuris FS and they are actually beatable opponents.

Marcos got good offensive ability just like Kata had his trident, his awakening, his Mochi abilities that were strong enough to hurt G4, there abilities just aren’t Top Tier great.

If Marcos offensive could be as good as his defensive abilities you got the strongest character in the series, there’s a reason they are good but not great. Marco wouldn’t be sailing under WB if he was a do it all guy, with Top Tier offensive and Defensive ability, no way.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 19, 2021)

OG sama said:


> with Top Tier offensive and Defensive ability, no way.


Weird point tbh.

Rayleigh was under Roger yet is possibly one of the 5 strongest people ever.


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## OG sama (Jan 19, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Weird point tbh.
> 
> Rayleigh was under Roger yet is possibly one of the 5 strongest people ever.


I don’t think WB and Marco have that same dynamic.

WB seemed to have thought really high of Oden more than Marco, Jozu or, Vista or any of his sons.

Ace wanted to go avenge Oden but WB told him he had no chance at beating Kaido if Oden couldn’t. He didn’t seem to have faith in anyone of them to do that.

And Marco personally felt like picking a fight with the beast pirates would take considerable losses.

Shanks has quite a smaller crew than WBs so I just imagine the core members being above the members of other Yonko crews by a bit.

Could I be wrong? Sure but this is how I and many other look at it.

Beckman seems to be the night to Shanks day. He’s like Rayleigh and Zoro are to their captains, but I admit very little to go off on.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 19, 2021)

OG sama said:


> I don’t think WB and Marco have that same dynamic.


He is stated to be his right hand man in his reintroduction.

Whitebeard was consulting Marco with everything he did in Marineford.

There's not this idea that Marco is way, way below him. Keep in mind, Whitebeard is a god tier himself, Marco being top tier is not far fetched if he was significantly weaker than him.


OG sama said:


> WB seemed to have thought really high of Oden more than Marco, Jozu or, Vista or any of his sons.


This is whatever point.

He seemed to think highly of Jozu when he left him to fight Aokiji nonchaulantly.

Also, Marco was possibly the 1st commander back when Oden was made the 2nd. He wasnt stronger, but Whitebeard clearly put a lot of trust into this person from a young age. He was like Shanks is to Roger to Whitebeard. Or Ace before Ace.


OG sama said:


> Ace wanted to go avenge Oden but WB told him he had no chance at beating Kaido if Oden couldn’t. He didn’t seem to have faith in anyone of them to do that.


Including himself.


OG sama said:


> And Marco personally felt like picking a fight with the beast pirates would take considerable losses.


Whitebeard also thought this.


OG sama said:


> Shanks has quite a smaller crew than WBs so I just imagine the core members being above the members of other Yonko crews by a bit.


Doesn't mean shit. Yasopp and Vista are implied to have a rivalry, hell you are a gusher for feats and now you're making up that Lucky  Roo is possibly way tougher than Jozu who actually put an Admiral in place, blocked Mihawks slash aimed at Whitebeard etc. Beckman has this relationship with Shanks, yet Marco is the one Shanks talks to with utter respect at the end of Marineford as the man now taking over a Yonko crew. Its not clear one bit that Beckman is signfincantly removed from him, not at all.


OG sama said:


> Could I be wrong? Sure but this is how I and many other look at it.
> 
> Beckman seems to be the night to Shanks day. He’s like Rayleigh and Zoro are to their captains, but I admit very little to go off on.


Ok whatever.

Im just stating my piece as well.


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## OG sama (Jan 19, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> He is stated to be his right hand man in his reintroduction.
> 
> Whitebeard was consulting Marco with everything he did in Marineford.
> 
> ...


Guess we will see if Marco is this Admiral level guy in these next chapters. I have no problem admitting if I’m wrong about something, I sure hope you can do the same, cause Marco being portrayed strong enough to beat both King and Queen by his self, the chances of that are slim to none imo.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 19, 2021)

Marco's feats and portrayal were quite consistant since his introduction :
-he was the only one (other than WB himself) who clashed equally with the three admirals in MF. The DB even makes a fixation on this fact.
-He was a candidate for taking on WB's lands according to the 5 elders.
-BM admitted that she didn't want to spare much souls fighting him when she neg/low diffed Queen with her physical might alone while nerfed (memory out).
-Just recently, he was shown holding both King&Queen very easily.

If he isn't entry admiral level, then he's the closest thing to it. The Yonkou's strongest henchmen were never portrayed to be arround the same level. If Kata', King or Queen looked so much inferior to the admiral/Yonkou level folks, then it's more of an anti-feat for them alone.

Now, post-Udon training Luffy is strong on his own but is he as on par or even above Marco ?
Avoiding being one shotted by base Kaidou is a good feat but this level of speed is routine in admiral/Yonkou level and Marco was never seen struggling speedwise, his exchanges with Kizaru are more than revealing.
In terms of DC, either with G3 or 4, he only inflicted minor damage to base Kaidou, meanwhile Marco's kick repeled Kizaru and his flames layer blocked Akainu's magma punch without much struggle.
Overall, either in terms of speed or power, Marco has what it take to easily exchange blows with Luffy whatever the gear, without the need to spam regeneration. So, atm, I'd favor him more times than not but it also depends on Luffy's growth and showings in the future chapters.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 19, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Guess we will see if Marco is this Admiral level guy in these next chapters. I have no problem admitting if I’m wrong about something, I sure hope you can do the same, cause Marco being portrayed strong enough to beat both King and Queen by his self, the chances of that are slim to none imo.


Good.

I will stress again that powerlevels might get whacky real quick, with Sasaki fighting Franky, Who's Who fighting Jimbei. Or I'm jumping the gun.


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## OG sama (Jan 19, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Good.
> 
> I will stress again that powerlevels might get whacky real quick, with Sasaki fighting Franky, Who's Who fighting Jimbei. Or I'm jumping the gun.


Who’s Who has always been YC4 level to me just as strong as the SNs were before this arc like G2/G3 Luffy, Law, Urouge, Ace.

Im not really surprised he’s fighting Jinbei, I am surprised that Franky is fighting an F6 and one that shouldn’t be to much weaker than Whos Who, that’s impressive to me. Franky has always been really strong and I’m glad he’s getting a good opponent, so far he has a better opponent than Sanji does smh.

Im hoping Sanji goes up against Queen, if Franky is facing Sasaki and Jinbei Whos Who it only makes sense.

Sanji will need to improve during the battle to beat Queen also I feel like.


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## OG sama (Jan 19, 2021)

hbcaptain said:


> Marco's feats and portrayal were quite consistant since his introduction :
> -he was the only one (other than WB himself) who clashed equally with the three admirals in MF. The DB even makes a fixation on this fact.
> -He was a candidate for taking on WB's lands according to the 5 elders.
> -BM admitted that she didn't want to spare much souls fighting him when she neg/low diffed Queen with her physical might alone while nerfed (memory out).
> ...


Keep in mind when Luffy partially dodged the attack he was just in base form, his relflexes should be much better with Gears. And he was not even one shotted despite the attack hitting him in the forehead despite it only being partial.

Marcos not putting Luffy down with anything in his arsenal, his abilities are great for stalling attacks by simply throwing his wings at the opponents attack causing the attack to be negated.

Damaging Kaido the WSC is >>> kicking back Kizaru and doing 0 damage. And Kaido is known for being near invulnerable but yet he was shocked and stated Luffy had damaged him, the attack was so impressive that Kaido pondered whether Luffy had the potential to be as good as the great pirates.

There’s no sugar coating it, that Red Roc attack hitting him like it did stoked curiosity in the WSC.

Whereas Kizaru mocked Marcos attacks and doesn’t have a fruit that just heals damage on a whim so he isn’t going to have the same reaction that Marco had but yet Marco with a fruit that heals couldn’t seem to hurt a guy that  doesn’t have the same kind of luxury.

It’s clear portrayal to me, the Current Luffy is stronger than Marco is, beating Marco takes time, we have no idea how long Marco can keep healing but we know when he can’t rely on it he’s vulnerable. You can take Kizarus DF from him and he’s still got Top Tier Haki stats. You take Marcos regen cap off and give it a weakness and Marco has been beaten by payback BB in overwhelming fashion.

Marco has looked good in small sample sizes but in a battle like this, he is the only opponent Luffy needs to focus on. I have no reason to believe that punches that damaged Kaido and had Kaido pondering Luffys potential are just attacks that Marco is going to shrug off because the Admirals initial attacks fighting a guy they know nothing about nor his abilities had 0 effect.

Garps punches seemed to be the key to a potential weakness in Marcos healing, obviously Luffy isn’t as strong as Garp is but I have no reason to believe Kaido hurting punches are going to be useless here, Luffys fighting style coupled with his Advanced CoA might be great for bypassing Marcos regen.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 19, 2021)

Marco is not comparable to prime Ray I would not be surprised if Ray could mid diff


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## Jo Ndule (Jan 20, 2021)

Luffy mid diff
Better Haki
Better speed
Better AP
Better DC
Better lethality

Marco will be a punching bag

He wouldnt even do a thing

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Jo Ndule (Jan 20, 2021)

Marco and Vista cant hurt an admiral like jozu did even
Marco has failed to dodge Linlin 
Got choked like a chicken
Low Low diffed by Teach (weakest Yonko) 
Rivals Perospero 
Couldn't survive NW as leader of WBP 

Luffy wirh g3 blew and brushed fuji 
Blew Kaido down with EG
Damaged kaido with Red Roc
Base kuffy dodged kaiido twice
G4 would wreck any top tier not named kaido or BM 
Rivals Katakuri 
5th emperor/yonko candidate 

Marco has nothing over Luffy except dura via regen which Adcoa counters hard

Oh yeah, Marco has never dodged any top tier 

Somebody Perospero rivals and fought many times in the past.  can never be above even pe fs luffy.

Marco isn't even above Law or Sulong dukes
Doffy and kata wouldn't be sidekicks in thus war if they were allied to Luffy.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## Nikseng (Mar 3, 2021)

Who's the strongest member of the alliance ?

To me it's Marco as of now. BM adressing Marco with respect and asking what someone of " his caliber " was doing with these rookies is something.
Also, I can't envision BM asking for help to take down Luffy and then running away from him because she is not at 100%; saying in the process he might be a threat to her life.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Yumi Zoro (Mar 3, 2021)

Curently Marco by far.

Luffy will surpass him though with Awakening or G5.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Ruse (Mar 3, 2021)

Seems like Marco can outlast him, Luffy needs to work on that time limit problem.

Very close fight though.


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## OG sama (Mar 3, 2021)

Definitely still Luffy and what’s changed? We literally don’t know shit about Marco vs King and Queen or how that’s going to go.

Or does someone want me to go and grab all the scans of Luffys feats against Kaido and tell me he can’t win here...

So when BM was scared shitless of Luffy beating on Kaidos ass that meant nothing?

Fuck it let me go and grab every scan of that fight..

Not sure why this thread was revived anyway, we know literally nothing about Marco vs King and Queen and how that’s going to play out, I know the person who commented in here had to be doing this out of pure fanboy bias.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 3, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Definitely still Luffy and what’s changed?


We found out Luffy still has a time limit

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 3 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 3, 2021)

Jo Ndule said:


> Marco and Vista cant hurt an admiral like jozu did even
> Marco has failed to dodge Linlin
> Got choked like a chicken
> Low Low diffed by Teach (weakest Yonko)
> ...


If this forum wasn't so lenient you would be clapped so quickly


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## OG sama (Mar 3, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> We found out Luffy still has a time limit


Me and you and everyone already discussed this, so no that ain’t the reason this thread was revived....

Mr. Nikseng a well known Marco fan isn’t slick at all.... 

But anyways we discussed this and Luffy can totally fight in G2 and G3 before going straight to G4 against a fighter like Marco and potentially win.

He’s still going to need G4 to win but his feats so far showcase that he wouldn’t need to be reliant on it as much as he was before because now he has Advanced Armament to use in G2 and G3 as well as FS.


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## OG sama (Mar 3, 2021)

Like Nikseng you are not slick at all man


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 3, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Me and you and everyone already discussed this, so no that ain’t the reason this thread was revived....
> 
> Mr. Nikseng a well known Marco fan isn’t slick at all....
> 
> ...


Luffy hasn't showcased the ability to defeat Marco under his time limit. This is the guy complaining about jumping the bullet on things

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Strobacaxi (Mar 3, 2021)

OG sama said:


> He’s still going to need G4 to win but his feats so far showcase that he wouldn’t need to be reliant on it as much as he was before because now he has Advanced Armament to use in G2 and G3 as well as FS.


G2 and G3 are not enough to get remotely close to beating Marco, and G4 doesn't have enough time to beat Marco either.

Luffy is stronger than Marco, that's pretty clear.
But I don't see him beating Marco. Not yet

Reactions: Winner 1


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## OG sama (Mar 3, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Luffy hasn't showcased the ability to defeat Marco under his time limit. This is the guy complaining about jumping the bullet on things


You didn’t read anything i stated, go back and read before commenting on any argument of mine.


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## OG sama (Mar 3, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> G2 and G3 are not enough to get remotely close to beating Marco, and G4 doesn't have enough time to beat Marco either.
> 
> Luffy is stronger than Marco, that's pretty clear.
> But I don't see him beating Marco. Not yet


So Red Roc the attack that damaged Kaido and hit Kaido so hard that it had Kaido pondering Luffys potential isn’t going to possibly help in wearing down Marcos regen???

Yeah I’m not buying this, with the logic used in here I guess Zoro and Kid, Law and Killer also outlast Luffy and win.

Everything’s pointing to G2 and G3 being much more useful than before.

Comparing Luffy not getting the job done against Kaido and applying it to Marco is the most ignorant thing a person can do knowing how ridiculous Kaido is to be put down having already fought the Scabbards before fighting team SN.


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## Nikseng (Mar 3, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Like Nikseng you are not slick at all man


Did Marco steal your girl or smth ?


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 3, 2021)

OG sama said:


> You didn’t read anything i stated, go back and read before commenting on any argument of mine.


You pretty much said Luffy wins this no question. I don't see how you got to that conclusion.


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## OG sama (Mar 3, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> You pretty much said Luffy wins this no question. I don't see how you got to that conclusion.


Yeah and that’s exactly how I feel, Luffys got way more firepower, comparable or even better speed, FS fast enough to nearly dodge a TB from Kaido which is one of if not the fastest attack in the entire damn series, endurance strong enough to take a partial TB to the face in base and still keep going as well as past endurance feats against Katakuri of him lasting 12 hours getting his ass whooped by the man.

As well as Luffy damaging Kaido with a G3 Red Roc so.... yeah I’m not talking out my ass.

Luffy should be able to hurt and wear down Marcos regen with G2 and G3 at this point before even needing to go to G4 straight away.

And even if we were  to assume  Luffy runs out of G4, his endurance is ridiculous enough for him to take a beating from Marco without dying or being KOed as I have already provided him taking a Thunder Bagua as well as the Katakuri fight of him lasting 12+ hours without being beaten.

FS should make this fight easier for Luffy as far as preserving his time limit as Luffy will be able to predict every attack and every action that Marco performs..

The only people who say Luffy can’t possibly win are just the haters who have refused to give him credit for all the shit he’s down to Kaido already, which unfortunately is a large majority of the fandom here who doesn’t care for Luffy to begin with. As a fan, I have thought about ways he can win a battle like this and they are extremely plausible.


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 3, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Yeah and that’s exactly how I feel, *Luffys got way more firepower, comparable or even better speed*, FS fast enough to nearly dodge a TB from Kaido which is one of if not the fastest attack in the entire damn series, endurance strong enough to take a partial TB to the face in base and still keep going as well as past endurance feats against Katakuri of him lasting 12 hours getting his ass whooped by the man.


How do you know this?


OG sama said:


> Luffy should be able to hurt and wear down Marcos regen with G2 and G3 at this point before even needing to go to G4 straight away.


What do you know about Marco's regen limit?


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## rborges01 (Mar 3, 2021)

Yeah Marco beats Luffy since Gear 4 still has a time limit.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Strobacaxi (Mar 3, 2021)

OG sama said:


> So Red Roc the attack that damaged Kaido and hit Kaido so hard that it had Kaido pondering Luffys potential isn’t going to possibly help in wearing down Marcos regen???


You wanna compare that attack with Akainu's magma punches that Marco was brushing off? 
Also Marco doesn't need to be hit by Luffy's attacks, Marco is a fast guy.
Kaido just took that attack without bracing, blocking, using haki or anything. The next attacks didn't do the same level of damage because Kaido braced. And he is still not using CoA.

It's like using Red Hawk putting DD on the ground coughing blood to say that G2 was capable of seriously harming him



OG sama said:


> Everything’s pointing to G2 and G3 being much more useful than before.


Yeah duh
Still not enough to get anywhere close to beating Marco.



OG sama said:


> Comparing Luffy not getting the job done against Kaido and applying it to Marco is the most ignorant thing a person can do knowing how ridiculous Kaido is to be put down having already fought the Scabbards before fighting team SN.


It's funny because Marco being ridiculously difficult to be put down is exactly his thing.

Reactions: Like 1


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## OG sama (Mar 3, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> How do you know this?
> 
> What do you know about Marco's regen limit?


Not fucking shit, and I was literally talking about this in the chapter prediction thread, Odas inability to elaborate on Marcos fruit weaknesses just have everyone assuming he’s going to heal all day and night, so it’s like what’s the point of even debating Marco fights.


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## OG sama (Mar 3, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> You wanna compare that attack with Akainu's magma punches that Marco was brushing off?
> Also Marco doesn't need to be hit by Luffy's attacks, Marco is a fast guy.
> Kaido just took that attack without bracing, blocking, using haki or anything. The next attacks didn't do the same level of damage because Kaido braced. And he is still not using CoA.
> 
> ...


This is exactly the shit I’m talking about... so please do tell me what’s going to be enough to put Marco down???

We gone assume that nothing works then? That Marco is unstoppable because Akainus Magma wasn’t enough so now no one should realistically beat him or wear down his regen??

It’s the no limit fallacy shit that I really hate that Marco fans use... we might as well assume Gold Roger himself can’t beat Marco.

Like what is Marco going to do, heal for weeks? Months? Years without running out of stamina or soemthing?

What kind of attack can exploit this regen??

I want y’all to really go in depth with me in this shit. This is exactly why Oda needs to elaborate more on his abilities bruh.


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## rborges01 (Mar 3, 2021)

OG sama said:


> This is exactly the shit I’m talking about... so please do tell me what’s going to be enough to put Marco down???
> 
> We gone assume that nothing works then? That Marco is unstoppable because Akainus Magma wasn’t enough so now no one should realistically beat him or wear down his regen??
> 
> ...


It was your mistake for making the thread in the first place. If there is no point in discussing this fight because we don’t know Marco’s abilities, then why make the thread in the first place?


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## Mihawk (Mar 3, 2021)

Marco still beats Luffy’s ass


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## OG sama (Mar 3, 2021)

rborges01 said:


> It was your mistake for making the thread in the first place. If there is no point in discussing this fight because we don’t know Marco’s abilities, then why make the thread in the first place?


I made this thread months ago? Why you on my back like this 

I wasn’t even the one to revive it as I know there’s too many what if’s involved in Marco fights.


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## rborges01 (Mar 3, 2021)

OG sama said:


> I made this thread months ago? Why you on my back like this
> 
> I wasn’t even the one to revive it as I know there’s too many what if’s involved in Marco fights.


I’m just saying you should take your own advice and be patient before getting too cocky. That’s all don’t worry.


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## Mihawk (Mar 3, 2021)

This thread revived by the grace of Marco’s abilities

Reactions: Funny 1


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## OG sama (Mar 3, 2021)

rborges01 said:


> I’m just saying you should take your own advice and be patient before getting too cocky. That’s all don’t worry.


Imo nothing has changed, it’s really just certain fans getting carried away over a chapter in which we know nothing about coming over here to spite because I told them to wait for the chapter to come out before getting carried away.

I definitely under that I shouldn’t do the same thing myself, that’s fair to say.


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## OG sama (Mar 3, 2021)

And @Shunsuiju Luffy has feats of hurting the WSC, he has a shit ton of panels showcasing this for you to see.

Where are Marcos feats of hurting Top Tiers at? Or doing comparable damage to G4 Luffy?

BM was absolutely shocked at what Luffy was doing, Marco hasn’t demonstrated he has G4’s raw firepower.

Compared to everyone on the roof, G4’s power was clearly ahead, there’s nothing convincing me that Marco has G4 firepower even if he could manage to hurt Kaido to some extent.


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## Strobacaxi (Mar 3, 2021)

OG sama said:


> This is exactly the shit I’m talking about... so please do tell me what’s going to be enough to put Marco down???


We are debating a manga where fights go on for days. We know for a fact that Marco's regeneration isn't infinite, it has a limit, most likely a time limit, considering there's not many attacks that are significantly stronger than a punch from Garp, or a magma punch from Akainu, or a named attack from Kizaru.

So Marco's limit is time. Which is Luffy's main weakness right now. His inability to keep G4 up, and the lack of ability to keep fighting for days.



OG sama said:


> It’s the no limit fallacy shit that I really hate that Marco fans use... we might as well assume Gold Roger himself can’t beat Marco.


The only one who's using fallacies here is you. You make up an argument that I did not make and try to debate that argument.

Roger fought WB for 3 days and can use incredibly powerful attacks. Marco has nothing that can put Roger down, so it's obvious that eventually, Marco's regen will no longer work and he'll be defeated. But not in minutes. Probably not in hours either.


If Luffy could sustain G4 for hours at a time, combined with proven ability (Which he doesn't) to keep up with G2/G3 for days, then yes, he'd defeat Marco. But Luffy can't do that yet. So he can't beat Marco, even though Luffy is the stronger of the two. It's the magic of hax abilities

Keep in mind that day long fights imply not eating for days. Considering what happened in WCI, I don't see Luffy doing it. Both his prolongued fights were with food DF enemies where he could eat mid fight. Marco's flames aren't going to feed him.


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## ClannadFan (Mar 3, 2021)

Anyone who's not extremely baised should be willing to atleast concede that this is a close fight. Saying there's no way that Luffy could lose is a bad take. 

As said before, Luffy is 100% stronger than Marco while in G4, but that time limit will be his downfall, esspecially against Marco, who is the King of stalling. I can see a sceanrio where Luffy could pull it off, but more times than not Marco should win.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Draco Bolton (Mar 3, 2021)

What a spite thread @YonkoDrippy @Shunsuiju 

Even EoS Luffy is not guaranted to win against our national chicken. What are they smoking ?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## OG sama (Mar 3, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> We are debating a manga where fights go on for days. We know for a fact that Marco's regeneration isn't infinite, it has a limit, most likely a time limit, considering there's not many attacks that are significantly stronger than a punch from Garp, or a magma punch from Akainu, or a named attack from Kizaru.
> 
> So Marco's limit is time. Which is Luffy's main weakness right now. His inability to keep G4 up, and the lack of ability to keep fighting for days.
> 
> ...


Who says Marco can go on for days?? Day long fights apply to people whose abilities cancel out the others... you don’t just give prolonged fights to anybody.

And Luffy fought Katakuri for only 12 hours, I guess Ace and Jinbei got 5 more days worth of stamina than Katakuri and WCI Luffy then... you know how ridiculous that shit sounds??

And no sir, I used Roger as an example to expose the fallacy used by Marco fans, there is no me trying to start another debate, you and all these other Marco fanboys use a no limit fallacy argument to wank Marcos abilities, I don’t know how long he’s supposed to keep going in a fight, there’s just nothing conclusive on the matter so I could be debating something right or wrong and you could be too.

There’s just not enough info bruh, that’s the whole issue.


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 3, 2021)

OG sama said:


> And @Shunsuiju Luffy has feats of hurting the WSC, he has a shit ton of panels showcasing this for you to see.
> 
> Where are Marcos feats of hurting Top Tiers at? Or doing comparable damage to G4 Luffy?
> 
> ...


Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


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## Strobacaxi (Mar 3, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Who says Marco can go on for days?? Day long fights apply to people whose abilities cancel out the others... you don’t just give prolonged fights to anybody.


The fact that he fought for hours and was still regenerating in the end, and had no clear sign of fatigue or letting up. It's possible he can't hold on for days, but most likely, he can.
No, days long fights apply to people whose power levels are similar. Or are you going to explain exactly how Kaido and BM's abilities counter each other, or how Roger and WB's abilities counter each other?



OG sama said:


> And Luffy fought Katakuri for only 12 hours, I guess Ace and Jinbei got 5 more days worth of stamina than Katakuri and WCI Luffy then... you know how ridiculous that shit sounds??


If Luffy doesn't use G4, probably he can fight for days. If he uses G4 he absolutely can't fight for days, which has been shown in the manga.
Luffy fought Katakuri for 12 hours, was extremely tired after and ate mid fight. Luffy fought Cracker for 11 hours, spent the whole time eating, and was reasonably tired afterwards. Luffy fought DD for 30 minutes and slept for 3 days straight.

Without using G4, Luffy can't beat Marco.




OG sama said:


> you and all these other Marco fanboys use a no limit fallacy argument to wank Marcos abilities, I don’t know how long he’s supposed to keep going in a fight, there’s just nothing conclusive on the matter so I could be debating something right or wrong and you could be too.


First of all, I'm not a marco fanboy
2nd, I don't use a no limit fallacy at all, I just explained his limit.
We can base his endurance from other YC level characters like Jack who was shown fighting for days, or Ace and Jimbei who did the same.

Marco doesn't have a All-or-Nothing mode like G4 that drains his stamina like crazy.


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## OG sama (Mar 3, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> The fact that he fought for hours and was still regenerating in the end, and had no clear sign of fatigue or letting up. It's possible he can't hold on for days, but most likely, he can.
> No, days long fights apply to people whose power levels are similar. Or are you going to explain exactly how Kaido and BM's abilities counter each other, or how Roger and WB's abilities counter each other?
> 
> 
> ...


But yet the Alliance is going to beat Kaido before he even drops Onigashima on the capital.... 

That 5 day, 10 day fight shit is not something that’s just going to always happen in the story...


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## Strobacaxi (Mar 3, 2021)

OG sama said:


> But yet the Alliance is going to beat Kaido before he even drops Onigashima on the capital....
> 
> That 5 day, 10 day fight shit is not something that’s just going to always happen in the story...


Thanks for the info Oda, please don't spoil us that way though

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Nikseng (Mar 3, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> *First of all, I'm not a marco fanboy*
> 2nd, I don't use a no limit fallacy at all, I just explained his limit.
> We can base his endurance from other YC level characters like Jack who was shown fighting for days, or Ace and Jimbei who did the same.
> 
> Marco doesn't have a All-or-Nothing mode like G4 that drains his stamina like crazy.


That's where you're mistaking, you are now a biaised Marco fan too. Welcome to the club


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## Jo Ndule (Mar 4, 2021)

Marco didn't fight 3 days straight 
The wbo and Roger pirates took breaks inbetween, they slept and restarted fighting in those 3 days... reread the flashbacks when buggy and shanks talk after the war.

Marco ran out of regen after 3hrs max of mf war
In fact, he only got hit 5 or 6x... most attacks he took was g3 tier at best.

The fact mere bullets can overpower and hurt him
He's not beating DR Luffy even

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Kylo Ren (Mar 4, 2021)

Luffy, of course.


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## Strobacaxi (Mar 4, 2021)

Jo Ndule said:


> Marco ran out of regen after 3hrs max of mf war


wut?



Jo Ndule said:


> In fact, he only got hit 5 or 6x... most attacks he took was g3 tier at best.


wut?



Jo Ndule said:


> The fact mere bullets can overpower and hurt him


wut?

It's like you're on crack

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Bobybobster (Mar 4, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> wut?
> 
> 
> wut?
> ...


that guy should be banned at this point for just perpetuating this nonsense every time


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## Ezekjuninor (Mar 4, 2021)

With Marco's and Luffy's current feats I'd favour Marco rn, even though gear 4th Luffy is likely stronger than Marco he won't be able to defeat Marco in 1 or 2 gear 4ths.


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## Richard Lionheart (Mar 4, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Considering there are still people who think Marco and especially Jozu and Vista are Admiral level I think this thread is in order.



This aged like a fine wine.


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## Beast (Mar 4, 2021)

Loool, this is gonna funny later on this week.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ClannadFan (Mar 4, 2021)

I'm not sure where the idea that Marco has shit AP comes from. Is it because his DF is so impressive that people just assume he's gotta have a weakness somewhere? Because from what we've been shown, nothing suggest that his AP is weak in comparison to other YC. His DF gives him endurance and defense similar to an Admiral, but just because his AP isn't Admiral lvl doesn't mean his AP is weak. It should be more than enough to damage Luffy. Luffy aint no selling Marcos attack.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Sloan (Mar 4, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> I'm not sure where the idea that Marco has shit AP comes from. Is it because his DF is so impressive that people just assume he's gotta have a weakness somewhere? Because from what we've been shown, nothing suggest that his AP is weak in comparison to other YC. His DF gives him endurance and defense similar to an Admiral, but just because his AP isn't Admiral lvl doesn't mean his AP is weak. It should be more than enough to damage Luffy. Luffy aint no selling Marcos attack.


The basis of the argument for Marco having "shit AP" is from not damaging the Admirals.  That's what it's been for over 10 years.  It's fallacious but yea.


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## Beast (Mar 4, 2021)

Jozu making Aokiji lip bleed is why people think Marcos AP is shit... while forgetting that Aokiji had WBs spear in his chest and was countering him.

also the sneak attack in Akainu.

Marcos AP is shit only in comparison to top tiers and his healing, not compared to other YCs or current SN.


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## Kylo Ren (Mar 5, 2021)

If your AP is not top tier, Luffy will just endure or outlast it just like Katakuri's. While Luffy's Advance Coa will surely hurt Marco just like Garp with the addition of Future sight landing a blow will surely be easy.

The only problem Luffy have here is the G4 duration but he can always choose to play it strategically/wisely just like the fight with KAts where he warns Luffy about the G4 limit and Luffy forcefully deactivates it so he cannot be a practice target.


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## itsxtray (Mar 5, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> I'm not sure where the idea that Marco has shit AP comes from. Is it because his DF is so impressive that people just assume he's gotta have a weakness somewhere? Because from what we've been shown, nothing suggest that his AP is weak in comparison to other YC. His DF gives him endurance and defense similar to an Admiral, but just because his AP isn't Admiral lvl doesn't mean his AP is weak. It should be more than enough to damage Luffy. Luffy aint no selling Marcos attack.


Marineford. When Marco & Jozu snuck the admirals very little damage was seemingly caused, but when the admirals snuck them back the fights were ended, especially Jozu.

Also, when Jozu snuck Aokiji he drew a trickle of blood:

But when Marco snuck Aokiji he was back up and attacking Whitebeard right away like nothing had happened:


>



In fact, the order of these events is chapter 566 Marco kicks Aokiji and he looks fine then in 567 Jozu shoulders him and he draws blood, to me that looks like visual storytelling indicating Jozu has better ap than Marco, but i could be wrong.

Now, im not saying i believe Marco has trash ap, just explaining the reasoning why so many people believed it.


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## Mihawk (Mar 5, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> I'm not sure where the idea that Marco has shit AP comes from. Is it because his DF is so impressive that people just assume he's gotta have a weakness somewhere?



Basically. This was just fanfiction concocted by people who tried to rationalise his strength because he has such an amazing devil fruit. 

It's either that or downplaying his opponents or completely misreading what's in front of them.


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## OG sama (Mar 6, 2021)

Extreme diff either way.

Luffy is stronger I would say but his time limit in G4 might cause him to lose despite really being the more powerful one here.

If he can fight in G2 and G3 and hold his own with some tandem of Advanced CoA and FS + G2/G3 then follow up with G4 as some kind of trump and let Marco have it he might wear down Marco enough to pull out a win here.

Eventually Marcos healing is just going to slow down and cease, and as impress as Marco is offensively in his own right I can’t see him putting down Luffy, if he wins here I expect it to be because he tired Luffy out so much he couldn’t continue anymore.

But Luffys own endurance here will really contest with Marcos Offensive ability, Luffy is extremely tough to put down and FS should help him dodge a lot of attacks despite Marco being really fast enough to offset it somewhat if Luffy dodging TB partially is any indication.

It’s a lot closer than I let on at the begging of this thread.

If Luffy can’t beat Marco now he will with this next power up, not a big deal.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ShadoLord (Mar 6, 2021)

Marco could shrug off amputations from King. Luffy isn't putting him down with what he's shown so far. Luffy is losing.


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## Dragon D Xebec (Mar 6, 2021)

Why is FS ignored in this match up? People act like Luffy doesn't have FS and gives the win to Marco.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## OG sama (Mar 6, 2021)

Zoro said:


> Marco could shrug off amputations from King. Luffy isn't putting him down with what he's shown so far. Luffy is losing.


That’s not what happened, King cut off his wing and Marcos healing ceased on that arm.

This isn’t very game changing info as we know Marco was also giving his flames to the fodder on the floor where Hyo was so his regen was already hampered.

Kaido hurting punches from Luffy should and will totally wear down Marcos regen, will it be enough with G4’s time limit?

Who knows, like I said before, Luffy doesn’t have to start this battle in G4 to deal damage and wear down Marcos stamina, in fact if he’s smart he should stay in G2 and G3 as long as he needs to before jumping to G4.

Marco as great as he is defensively isn’t the monster Kaido is where he’s just going to shrug off everything forever, eventually his limit will be reached if Luffy just keeps attacking and then Marco will need to start dodging.

I see this fight possibly just going either way, but Marco could also totally outlast as well, it’s hard to say.


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## OG sama (Mar 6, 2021)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> Why is FS ignored in this match up? People act like Luffy doesn't have FS and gives the win to Marco.


I agree FS makes hitting someone as fast as Marco a lot easier for Luffy.


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## Dragon D Xebec (Mar 6, 2021)

OG sama said:


> I agree FS makes hitting someone as fast as Marco a lot easier for Luffy.


Marco has no feat to easily counter FS. He fought King and Queen but King CoO is piss poor. He got disarmed by Izo and he didn't detect RS Sanji who tried to save Momo until RS Sanji freed Momo cuff.


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## ShadoLord (Mar 6, 2021)

OG sama said:


> That’s not what happened, King cut off his wing and Marcos healing ceased on that arm.
> 
> This isn’t very game changing info as we know Marco was also giving his flames to the fodder on the floor where Hyo was so his regen was already hampered.
> 
> ...


G2/G3 Luffy is no match for Marco. Have you seen what the guy is doing to King and Queen? Marco was doing what G4 Luffy did to Katakuri.


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## OG sama (Mar 6, 2021)

Zoro said:


> G2/G3 Luffy is no match for Marco. Have you seen what the guy is doing to King and Queen? Marco was doing what G4 Luffy did to Katakuri.


Did you not see what a G3 Red Roc did to Kaido?  A guy much stronger than King and Queen combined?

And Luffy has FS to predict and Telegraph where Marco could be going in order to actually tag him with a G3 even if Marco should be much faster than it.

I’m not saying Luffy can win with G2 and G3 only but he can totally make use for them well before using G4 even if he is on the losing side of that, as Luffy is an endurance beast Marco isnt putting him down very easily if Luffy going 12 hours with Katakuri is an indication or partially tanking a Thunde Bagua to the head is an indication.

So even if we assumed this Luffy with a Advanced Haki and G2/ G3 would still be on the losing side of an ass whooping on Marco all he would need to do is keep up the attack and try wearing down Marcos regen, with FS its extremely likely he can still manage to tag Marco.

When the battle is getting too tough is when he can go G4 but his endurance should keep him alive and kicking from multiple Marco attacks.

Or unless you think the attacks Marco used this chapter would put down Luffy? I definitely don’t think that.


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## itsxtray (Mar 6, 2021)

Zoro said:


> G2/G3 Luffy is no match for Marco. Have you seen what the guy is doing to King and Queen? Marco was doing what G4 Luffy did to Katakuri.


Yeah, but Marco is in partial hybrid (his legs) while neither King nor Queen have gone hybrid, they're at a disadvantage for Oda knows why.

Also, Luffy partially dodged a thunder bagua in base with fs, in gear 2nd with fs i'm confident he can evade and tag marco. Even of Marco is faster than thunder bagua (which i don't think he is.) The gear 2nd amp should be enough to make up the gap.


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## ShadoLord (Mar 6, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Did you not see what a G3 Red Roc did to Kaido?  A guy much stronger than King and Queen combined?
> 
> And Luffy has FS to predict and Telegraph where Marco could be going in order to actually tag him with a G3 even if Marco should be much faster than it.
> 
> ...


Kaido was taken by surprise. Luffy got blitze right afterwards.

Marco has fought other FS users like the Admirals without any issues, I don't see why he would have any problems with Luffy using FS. It isn't exclusive to Katakuri. All the truly strong foes have it, as Rayleigh said.

I'd give you that G2/G3 Luffy wouldn't get crushed outright but I don't see a single barrage being able to take down Marco for good when the guy can last throughout the entire paramount war and he was fighting top tiers the whole time.

to put it into perspective, Marco is capable of going against the Admirals by himself confidently. Can Luffy do the same after what he and his 4 buddies against 2 Yonkou showed?


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## OG sama (Mar 6, 2021)

Zoro said:


> Kaido was taken by surprise. Luffy got blitze right afterwards.
> 
> Marco has fought other FS users like the Admirals without any issues, I don't see why he would have any problems with Luffy using FS. It isn't exclusive to Katakuri. All the truly strong foes have it, as Rayleigh said.
> 
> ...


Luffy narrowly dodged the attack... and he did that in base...

We don’t know if the Admirals have FS... it’s not been stated it’s just been speculated on, but considering Jozu was able to cheap shot Aokiji without him noticing and Marco was too It either sounds like they don’t have it or they weren’t using it. No evidence that the Admirals have FS. And Rayleigh implied that FS was rare, could it be rare because only the strongest have it? Yeah I suppose.

But let’s say they do, I mean it’s pretty obvious that Marco can tag FS users or else how else would anyone say he beats Katakuri? How would he be competitive with Luffy and give him extreme diff according to my opinion if he couldn’t tag FS users? But it’s not like being fast is going to put Luffy down here, they should be able to land attacks on each other just fine.

Never said G2/G3 would put Marco down but when you add that with Advanced Armament it should totally wear down Marcos regen and especially over a long period of time as it’s unlikely that with either one of these fights endurance this fight isn’t taking a while.... Luffys still going to need to go G4 here it’s just a matter of picking the right moment because once it runs out and Marco is still standing he’s probably going to be done for at that point, and I can’t see Luffy successful running away from Marco I can’t see Marco allowing that.

For as long as Luffy can use his abilities such  as Advanced Armament and Gears without running out I would say yes. Also it’s going to depend on the Admiral and their mindset don’t you think? Kizaru, or none of the Admirals except Akainu seemed to be taking their job serious during MF. Also that’s a war setting with a lot of interference to take into consideration. Marco wasn’t fighting Kizaru for very long before doing other stuff.

Luffy is at a level now where he should be able to hold his own with Admirals without getting immediately stomped, TB seems to be a very outlier- ish attack. Top Tier or not it doesn’t seem like an attack any one is going to take very well. Even Oden whom you and I would say is probably around an Admirals level got hit by that attack as a cheap shot and was KOed.


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## ShadoLord (Mar 6, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Luffy narrowly dodged the attack... and he did that in base...
> 
> We don’t know if the Admirals have FS... it’s not been stated it’s just been speculated on, but considering Jozu was able to cheap shot Aokiji without him noticing and Marco was too It either sounds like they don’t have it or they weren’t using it. No evidence that the Admirals have FS. And Rayleigh implied that FS was rare, could it be rare because only the strongest have it? Yeah I suppose.
> 
> ...


Aokiji freezing up WB's bisento was likely an application of FS + logia morphing like what Katakuri does to dodge haki attacks. But yeah, I assume we can agree that it is more than likely for the top tiers to have advanced versions of haki.

I meant that I don't believe a barrage of G4 is enough to bring down Marco for good. In which case, G2/G3 doing anything to Marco is even less likely. Luffy also hasn't completely mastered advanced haki so he wouldn't even be able to apply that to every attack or his G4 will last even shorter. For the record, I believe Marco's stamina is better than Luffy's as he can fight through the war against multiple different top tiers and considering the nature of his abilities and track record being a pirate for over 30 years on WB's ship, which should have seen a ton of fights.


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## OG sama (Mar 6, 2021)

Zoro said:


> Aokiji freezing up WB's bisento was likely an application of FS + logia morphing like what Katakuri does to dodge haki attacks. But yeah, I assume we can agree that it is more than likely for the top tiers to have advanced versions of haki.
> 
> I meant that I don't believe a barrage of G4 is enough to bring down Marco for good. In which case, G2/G3 doing anything to Marco is even less likely. Luffy also hasn't completely mastered advanced haki so he wouldn't even be able to apply that to every attack or his G4 will last even shorter. For the record, I believe Marco's stamina is better than Luffy's as he can fight through the war against multiple different top tiers and considering the nature of his abilities and track record being a pirate for over 30 years on WB's ship, which should have seen a ton of fights.


The Admirals probably do have FS.

That’s fair to say, this matchup is dependent on whether one thinks Marcos regen will win out or whether Luffy can finish this in time and prove successful in wearing Marco down before G4.

Im ready for this whole time limit BS to cease and he gets an Awakening that can fix it along with stronger and cooler abilities.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dragon D Xebec (Mar 6, 2021)

Admirals didn't get any damage from Marco attack. Kizaru was clean af after MF war. So that means if admirals have FS, Marco did zero damage or Marco can't damage admirals since admirals shape shifted their bodies to make marco attack pass through their bodies.

So it comes back to Marco still has no counter to FS. Because admirals who have FS in MF like Kizaru didn't get any damage from Marco attacks which meant all Marco attacks passed through Kizaru logia body.


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## OG sama (Mar 6, 2021)

Marco being fast enough to counter FS with his speed should be obvious, Oda has made it clear how fast this dude is.

That wouldn’t make it useless though, Luffy was able to counter FS with speed but there were some attacks that Katakuri still could dodge and some attacks that Katakuri was smart enough to adapt to.

Snakeman was also very unorthodox, Marco is guaranteed to land attacks regardless of FS, but it’s not like Luffy is a glass cannon, they are going to go back and forth here, Marco is no walk in the park for anyone.

Reactions: Like 1


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## itsxtray (Mar 6, 2021)

OG sama said:


> The Admirals probably do have FS.
> 
> That’s fair to say, this matchup is dependent on whether one thinks Marcos regen will win out or whether Luffy can finish this in time and prove successful in wearing Marco down before G4.
> 
> Im ready for this whole time limit BS to cease and he gets an Awakening that can fix it along with stronger and cooler abilities.


Yep, Luffy has been nerfed for a long time with this time limit and it doesn't seem like it's getting better. He's improved his armament but the limits still the same which makes me think that constantly using haki by covering your body in it can't be overcome because haki is a finite resource, so he'll always have a time limit.

Which means the answer probably lies in awakening. Whatever it ends up doing will either increase Luffy so much that gear 4th is reduced to gear 2nd status or it'll circumvent the g4 time limit in some way.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ShadoLord (Mar 6, 2021)

OG sama said:


> The Admirals probably do have FS.
> 
> That’s fair to say, this matchup is dependent on whether one thinks Marcos regen will win out or whether Luffy can finish this in time and prove successful in wearing Marco down before G4.
> 
> Im ready for this whole time limit BS to cease and he gets an Awakening that can fix it along with stronger and cooler abilities.


I'm truly hoping that Oda has Luffy master his G4 like his G3 without drawbacks before introducing the eventual G5. I wouldn't want our boy to asspull more modes out without actually mastering the previous one.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ShadoLord (Mar 6, 2021)

itsxtray said:


> Yep, Luffy has been nerfed for a long time with this time limit and it doesn't seem like it's getting better. He's improved his armament but the limits still the same which makes me think that constantly using haki by covering your body in it can't be overcome because haki is a finite resource, so he'll always have a time limit.
> 
> Which means the answer probably lies in awakening. Whatever it ends up doing will either increase Luffy so much that gear 4th is reduced to gear 2nd status or it'll circumvent the g4 time limit in some way.


The awakening could serve as a buffer by rebounding the enemies away from Luffy when he's exhausted from G4. Luffy just need to make sure to keep his distance by turning the environment into a bouncing ring while restoring his haki reserves or smt.


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## OG sama (Mar 6, 2021)

Zoro said:


> I'm truly hoping that Oda has Luffy master his G4 like his G3 without drawbacks before introducing the eventual G5. I wouldn't want our boy to asspull more modes out without actually mastering the previous one.


Man I wish this could be the case... but Oda has put Luffy and the others in an impossible situation.... Hawkins or someone is going to be responsible for some Awakening or something I bet.


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## itsxtray (Mar 6, 2021)

Zoro said:


> The awakening could serve as a buffer by rebounding the enemies away from Luffy when he's exhausted from G4. Luffy just need to make sure to keep his distance by turning the environment into a bouncing ring while restoring his haki reserves or smt.


I made a thread about it awhile ago but people weren't convinced that Luffy's awakening will be the same as the ones we've seen because 

1: Luffy isn't a producer, he just is rubber he can't create it

2: Luffy's a brawler and the way awakening has been used so far would change his fighting style too much 

So im not sure, people were saying it would make him extra rubbery so he could essentially create gear4 lvl tensile strength w/out using haki to do so, so he can still have that speed & power if his haki runs out.

Idk man, i just hope it makes sense and is cool.


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## ShadoLord (Mar 6, 2021)

itsxtray said:


> I made a thread about it awhile ago but people weren't convinced that Luffy's awakening will be the same as the ones we've seen because
> 
> 1: Luffy isn't a producer, he just is rubber he can't create it
> 
> ...


lmao that is ridiculous, it has to impact the environment in some form. The zoan awakening would focus on the user itself.


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## itsxtray (Mar 6, 2021)

Zoro said:


> lmao that is ridiculous, it has to impact the environment in some form. The zoan awakening would focus on the user itself.


Yeah, i'll link the thread if i can find it but people were sold on the idea man.


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## itsxtray (Mar 6, 2021)

Zoro said:


> lmao that is ridiculous, it has to impact the environment in some form. The zoan awakening would focus on the user itself.


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## WhoKnowsItAll (Mar 6, 2021)

Marcos fruit has broken  regenerative power, but he does not have infinite or very high stamina since he  is clearly being worn down in the recent chapter'1006 during his fight with king and queen and he says so himself and from his attacks in the chapter you could also say that he may have more attack power than you think..
The speed of Marcos flames regeneration is dependent on the situation like when Garp punched him hard enough his flame completely disappeared that means there is a way to counter his regeneration .
Since no admiral or anyone on marineford has shown any sign of advanced ryou which attacks from inside of body and assuming garp may know it i think that the punch was covered with advanced ryou and also dealing with internal wounds is a mess , even if doflamingo  was having far  less regenerative power than marco but you can clear see at least an example of how disastrous internal injuries are. Also the attack used on doflamingo  gamma knife and  if you see in the panels G3 Red Roc does almost as much or maybe more damage than Gamma knife does on Kaido.
Also Luffys FS gives him a dimension other than strength , just compare Luffy without FS and Luffy using FS fighting Katakuri and also Luffy using FS in the fight with Kaido dodging his attack without any gears.,so Luffy can dodge many Marco's attack because i do not think Marco has enough speed to deceive FS, so i think Luffy can dodge many of Marcos attack in normal form and Marco would need to be very fast to keep up with him in g2+FS.
The downside for Luffy is obviously his gear 4 which still has a small time limit.Also Marco's healing himself continuously means Luffy needs to attack with more power continuously.
In all the fight will be very  hard but i think  Luffy has advantage and can also not overwhelm but spar with Marco in other gears using FS and advanced ryou.


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## fireofmyloins (Mar 6, 2021)

Tbh I've changed my mind on this - I no longer think that current Luffy would beat Marco; it'll rather be extreme diff for the regenerating blue chicken.

Given G4's time limit, all Marco would need to do is outlast it, and then kill a defenceless Luffy. And I think it's pretty undeniable that Marco would be able to weather the G4 onslaught for long enough.

Here's the deal: Do you think an Admiral/Yonkou/Mihawk would be able to KO Marco within a G4-like period of time? Even someone like Akainu, whose DF is heralded by Oda as having the strongest AP in the verse, and whose lethality is unparalleled (pumped the WSM's body full of lava; carved half his fucking face off; fisted a YC4 into becoming a donut) would probably take more time than that to put Marco down. That's Marco's entire shtick - he's hard to put down, and while that's just a minor annoyance for top tiers, Luffy's has no way around it. Since Luffy isn't going to be outputting more damage than Akainu or any of the other top tiers, he's unlikely to be beating Marco, right now.


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## WhoKnowsItAll (Mar 6, 2021)

fireofmyloins said:


> Tbh I've changed my mind on this - I no longer think that current Luffy would beat Marco; it'll rather be extreme diff for the regenerating blue chicken.
> 
> Given G4's time limit, all Marco would need to do is outlast it, and then kill a defenceless Luffy. And I think it's pretty undeniable that Marco would be able to weather the G4 onslaught for long enough.
> 
> Here's the deal: Do you think an Admiral/Yonkou/Mihawk would be able to KO Marco within a G4-like period of time? Even someone like Akainu, whose DF is heralded by Oda as having the strongest AP in the verse, and whose lethality is unparalleled (pumped the WSM's body full of lava; carved half his fucking face off; fisted a YC4 into becoming a donut) would probably take more time than that to put Marco down. That's Marco's entire shtick - he's hard to put down, and while that's just a minor annoyance for top tiers, Luffy's has no way around it. Since Luffy isn't going to be outputting more damage than Akainu or any of the other top tiers, he's unlikely to be beating Marco, right now.


Luffy also has insane durability do you forget he is made of rubber just see how much damage katakuri took and how much did he take in the same amount of hits i n his NORMAL FORM WITHOUT GEARS.
Akainu does not have strongest DF, oda just said that his DF has ONE OF THE STRONGEST OFFENSIVE POWER but nonetheless it is overpowered, however Garp did get the better out of Marco .If you see from this perspective that Marco has been very well protected by his flames f during llogia based attacks but when it comes to physical brawling  be it Garp or Big mom he was put down rather easily.
Also read chapter 1006 Marco is being exhausted by Queen and KIng
 and even Prospero comments on that.


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## trance (Mar 7, 2021)

luffy harmed kaido so he can harm marco

that said, marcos regen is gonna make this a long fight


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## Bobybobster (Mar 7, 2021)

WhoKnowsItAll said:


> Luffy also has insane durability do you forget he is made of rubber just see how much damage katakuri took and how much did he take in the same amount of hits i n his NORMAL FORM WITHOUT GEARS.
> Akainu does not have strongest DF, oda just said that his DF has ONE OF THE STRONGEST OFFENSIVE POWER but nonetheless it is overpowered, however Garp did get the better out of Marco .If you see from this perspective that Marco has been very well protected by his flames f during llogia based attacks but when it comes to physical brawling  be it Garp or Big mom he was put down rather easily.
> Also read chapter 1006 Marco is being exhausted by Queen and KIng
> and even Prospero comments on that.


tbh marco's been fighting king + queen since before luffy started his fight.

I'll say that end of wano luffy wins for sure, but I'm not sure about current luffy.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheOmega (Mar 7, 2021)

If Luffy runs out of G4(which he will) Marco wins.

Luffy will be able to win after Wano


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## Mrdude (Mar 20, 2021)

G4 time limit needs to go.

Unless Luffy is absolutely dominating his opponent in that form he should not be given a time limit for it.


fireofmyloins said:


> Tbh I've changed my mind on this - I no longer think that current Luffy would beat Marco; it'll rather be extreme diff for the regenerating blue chicken.
> 
> Given G4's time limit, all Marco would need to do is outlast it, and then kill a defenceless Luffy. And I think it's pretty undeniable that Marco would be able to weather the G4 onslaught for long enough.
> 
> Here's the deal: Do you think an Admiral/Yonkou/Mihawk would be able to KO Marco within a G4-like period of time? Even someone like Akainu, whose DF is heralded by Oda as having the strongest AP in the verse, and whose lethality is unparalleled (pumped the WSM's body full of lava; carved half his fucking face off; fisted a YC4 into becoming a donut) would probably take more time than that to put Marco down. That's Marco's entire shtick - he's hard to put down, and while that's just a minor annoyance for top tiers, Luffy's has no way around it. Since Luffy isn't going to be outputting more damage than Akainu or any of the other top tiers, he's unlikely to be beating Marco, right now.


Luffy isn’t defenseless outside of Gear 4th. We all saw what he did against Kaido without Gear 4th. He’s perfectly capable of dealing with Marco using Gear 2 or 3.

Also FS gives Luffy an edge when it comes to anticipating attacks and countering without the need to over exert himself.

People underestimate the amount of haki Luffy used against Kaido due to the fact that he is so hard to hurt. He wouldn’t really need to put as much effort with Marco.


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