# Juha Bach (Bleach) vs Madara Uchiha (Naruto: Shippuden)



## Medaka vi Durant (Oct 4, 2015)

*Both are at Full Power*

Battlefield: The spot where Madara rektd the Kages

Who wins and why?


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## Brightsteel (Oct 4, 2015)

Third shit thread in a row, new record. 

Assuming you mean Juudara?


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## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 4, 2015)

Madara stomps, even without the Juubi he'd probably win.


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## Medaka vi Durant (Oct 4, 2015)

lmao..sure


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## Iwandesu (Oct 4, 2015)

actually juha most likely hax madara ass
comparably speed and hax that ignores range does this kind of thing


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## AgentAAA (Oct 4, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> actually juha most likely hax madara ass
> comparably speed and hax that ignores range does this kind of thing



what hax?
not denying it exists, but I don't remember fucking a thing about Yuha's stupid vague powers.


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## ∞Eternity∞ (Oct 4, 2015)

Lol this will probably be one of thoughs threads that get banned . Anyways as much as i hate to admit it madara takes this easy


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## ∞Eternity∞ (Oct 4, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> actually juha most likely hax madara ass
> comparably speed and hax that ignores range does this kind of thing



Juha is only mach 1k right and madara at his strongest should get the mach 10k scaling


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## AgentAAA (Oct 4, 2015)

Thespiritdetective said:


> Juha is only mach 1k right and madara at his strongest should get the mach 10k scaling



mach 10k?
at best he gets the mach 4k off Nardo and the sauce.
I'm not actually sure where the 10k comes from.


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## ∞Eternity∞ (Oct 4, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> mach 10k?
> at best he gets the mach 4k off Nardo and the sauce.
> I'm not actually sure where the 10k comes from.



Me neither but I've beening reading people say that naruto is mach 10k so i figure all god tiers of the verse are around that speed


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## Visa (Oct 4, 2015)

Thespiritdetective said:


> Me neither but I've beening reading people say that naruto is mach 10k so i figure all god tiers of the verse are around that speed



I thought that was "The Last" Naruto scaling.


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## AgentAAA (Oct 4, 2015)

Thespiritdetective said:


> Me neither but I've beening reading people say that naruto is mach 10k so i figure all god tiers of the verse are around that speed



"The last" calcs only scale to nardo and toned Harry.


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## ∞Eternity∞ (Oct 4, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> "The last" calcs only scale to nardo and toned Harry.



But isn't. Madara around their level?


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## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 4, 2015)

Kaguya should get them as well. To be honest, Naruto beat Toneri without too much difficulty after powering up, you could make a case for Juudara getting it since he was a stronger opponent even if Naruto himself was stronger the gap shouldn't be too huge.


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## AgentAAA (Oct 4, 2015)

Thespiritdetective said:


> But isn't. Madara around their level?



featwise he doesn't have anything putting him there, to my knowledge.


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## Haro (Oct 4, 2015)

Madara sends a big fucking rock at them


GG


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## Pocalypse (Oct 4, 2015)

Yhwach should be planet level with the SK absorbed 

But I'll give this win to Madara, Yhwach hasn't shown any new feats yet with the power-up.


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## Jag77 (Oct 4, 2015)

Any version that isn't Rikudou Madara gets raped. 

Rikudou Madara rapes in return.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Oct 4, 2015)

Madara gets turned to a frog or something.


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## Iwandesu (Oct 4, 2015)

i actually was thinking about ichibei 
not sure what hax ivach has
also juudara shouldn't be scalled to last feats
nardo and sauce could have gotten stronger from all we know


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## ZenithXAbyss (Oct 4, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> i actually was thinking about ichibei
> not sure what hax ivach has
> also juudara shouldn't be scalled to last feats
> nardo and sauce could have gotten stronger from all we know


I actually thought about ichibei initially too. :uva
He still have The Visionary to name a few though.


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## Big Bοss (Oct 4, 2015)

How does that ability work in this versus doe? Cause is pretty much a NLF used outside of their universe.

Serious question here.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Oct 4, 2015)

Big Bοss said:


> How does that ability work in this versus doe? Cause is pretty much a NLF used outside of their universe.
> 
> Serious question here.



It's legit RW  iirc so it should work just fine.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 4, 2015)

Yhwach's power is the ability to manipulate "powers" including his own

The strongest being its worked on so far is the arm of the soul king, which was strong enough to hold earth+HM+SS together


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## Sablés (Oct 4, 2015)

Darthg, I'm fairly certain you're wrong

His powers were explicitly stated to NOT work on the SK 

Unless you're talking about something other than the future vision shit and just plain stealing power which is something else entirely, I guess


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## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 4, 2015)

The Soul King lost to Metapod. He has no power here.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBGWtVOKTkM[/youtube]


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 4, 2015)

His future vision is a subset of his power to manipulate powers

Yhwachs main power is his ability to manipulate powers, this lets him achieve all of his other powers:

distributing his soul (i.e power) among other people for them to develop for him
Taking his soul back from people
Negating the destruction of his power even when his power itself is negated
Absorbing the power of people he hasn't already given his soul to
etc.

The nexus ability of yhwach is manipulation of manipulations, it just manifests itself according to specific subsets he's already cultivated, which is why he can absorb the Soul King's arm but cannot view it through his cultivated pre-cog power

Basically this dude has every power potentially possibly in bleach and control over those powers, but he can't invent them from thin air, he or someone else has to cultivate that power first for him to later take and use as his own.


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## Big Bοss (Oct 4, 2015)

nightbringer said:


> Yhwach's power is the ability to manipulate "powers" including his own
> 
> The strongest being its worked on so far is the arm of the soul king, which was strong enough to hold *earth+HM+SS together*



Damn, is this for real? So that is what? Like planetary RW?


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## Sablés (Oct 4, 2015)

Big Bοss said:


> How does that ability work in this versus doe? Cause is pretty much a NLF used outside of their universe.
> 
> Serious question here.



There are lots of restrictions because the ability is so broad and well, NLF. Almighty works sequentially by 

1) seeing the future 2)  understanding every facet of an ability 3) then either counters or steals it. If he cannot achieve the 2 earlier steps, he's screwed.

First is the obvious energy restriction, he can't stop shit that's more than what he's been shown to handle.

If a character has something that blocks pre-cog and alike, he'll fail on that end too


If an ability is too esoteric and foreign by Detergent standards, there's no reason to believe he can "understand" it. 

If its too fast, he won't have enough time to complete the process

There are possibly more but these are the main restraints in a VS match.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Oct 4, 2015)

Why can't he just straight up use gremmy's powers though? 
Did something happen in bleach?


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## Big Bοss (Oct 4, 2015)

Liquid said:


> First is the obvious energy restriction, he can't stop shit that's more than what he's been shown to handle.



So, can he handle Madara's firepower?


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## Blαck (Oct 4, 2015)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Why can't he just straight up use gremmy's powers though?
> Did something happen in bleach?


Has he used any of the other SR's powers yet? 

Can't remember.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 4, 2015)

Big Bοss said:


> Damn, is this for real? So that is what? Like planetary RW?



Not sure

Soul King maintains the flow of souls and serves as an anchor point for all three worlds

When the Soul King dies the worlds very quickly begin falling apart

and I mean very quickly, the instant he dies large magnitude earthquakes pop up in all three dimensions and Urahara says there's not much time left (i.e a time measured in like minutes)

When Ukitake's arms flys up to the palace it stabalises everything instantly and when yhwach kills it the shaking beings anew, again instantly.

Later Yhwach himself can stop the shaking instantly when he absorbs its power.

So it's pretty well documented that anything Soul King level is enough to affect the stability of all three worlds, one of which is at LEAST earth (full bleach wank would be its the entire universe ).

What exactly kind of power is this? Well it's probably not RW, I guess you could just call it planet level energy manipulation, I'd call it TK but the flow of spirits isn't a tangible construct so I'm not sure telekinesis is the right word for it.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Oct 4, 2015)

Blαck said:


> Has he used any of the other SR's powers yet?
> 
> Can't remember.



Isn't those ultimately his though?


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## Big Bοss (Oct 4, 2015)

nightbringer said:


> Not sure
> 
> Soul King maintains the flow of souls and serves as an anchor point for all three worlds
> 
> ...




Well if this analysis is legit then I think he can handle Madara's firepower just fine cause planet level energy manipulation or TK on that level is far from him.


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## Sablés (Oct 4, 2015)

Big Bοss said:


> So, can he handle Madara's firepower?



He's handled Ichibei's RW which affected at least 4000 kms and absorbed the SK which Dartg explained already. 

IMO, he should be able to easily but there's never been any legitimate discussion on this so take it with a grain of salt.


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## Blαck (Oct 4, 2015)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Isn't those ultimately his though?



I guess, but we've seen characters who can give powers but not use them themselves


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 4, 2015)

No-one's actually bothered to seriously discuss this EoS bleach stuff so it never gets a proper conclusion

me and stables bring it up

everyone else goes okay

then next thread we do it all over again

I'm happy for people to debate my analysis of how the Soul King's power works but nobody ever wants to so idc 

also @zenith

Yhwach ostensibly has the powers he stole from the other Sternritter but Kubo either forgot or is saving this for when Yhwach actually has to seriously fight someone

which kinda makes sense since Yhwach's so strong he can get by on his own merits up to this point anyway

when he actually fights Ichigo he might use all those powers

or he might not


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## ZenithXAbyss (Oct 4, 2015)

Kubo a shit.
He probably forgot, like the other captains bankai.
Or yoruichi's.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 4, 2015)

>mfw yoruichi is doing things RIGHT NOW

Z A N P A K U T O H Y P E


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## Big Bοss (Oct 4, 2015)

nightbringer said:


> No-one's actually bothered to seriously discuss this EoS bleach stuff so it never gets a proper conclusion
> 
> me and stables bring it up
> 
> ...



Well I don't know that much of Bleach anymore since I don't care since Yama G died.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 4, 2015)

yama g 

speaking of yama

yhwach hasn't even used ZnT either


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## Regicide (Oct 5, 2015)

Fucker has the Soul King in his skull

What's he need a flame sword for


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## Tapion (Oct 5, 2015)

Because its cool?


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## Blαck (Oct 5, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Fucker has the Soul King in his skull
> 
> What's he need a flame sword for



So he can bring the heat? :ignoramus


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 5, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Fucker has the Soul King in his skull
> 
> What's he need a flame sword for



HEAT OF THE SUN friend


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## Tapion (Oct 5, 2015)

He could also revive all the Stern Ritters Yama-G slayed with it from the war 1000 years ago. 

I just want kubo to show the Savage G13 stomping the first Stern Ritters.


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## Sherlōck (Oct 5, 2015)

All these hax powers & he is going to get destroyed by someone who can only use one named attack.


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## Catalyst75 (Oct 5, 2015)

nightbringer said:


> No-one's actually bothered to seriously discuss this EoS bleach stuff so it never gets a proper conclusion
> 
> me and stables bring it up
> 
> ...



The Schrift which Yhwach bestows simply "represents" the ability; I do not believe he gives the abilities themselves to the Stern Ritter.  Remember, Royd and Loyd were born with their abilities, as was Askin, based on his words during his fight with Nimaiya.  What Yhwach does is draw out their latent potential through his Schrift.  

What Yhwach gives and takes is "power", not "abilities".  The one time we've seen where he has actually stolen abilities along with power is his absorption of Mimihagi and the Soul King.  After he absorbed the latter, he was powerful enough to pull out the entirety of the Vandenreich and reassemble it as the Wahrwelt in the Soul King Palace within seconds over an incredibly vast distance.  

Remember, Father Soul King was powerful enough to hold together four dimensions within Bleach (Soul Society, Hueco Mundo, Dangai, Living World) with his power sealed and de-limbed. 

As to what the Soul King's power is, I always flash-back to "Deicide" whenever I think about it.  From the looks of things, the Soul King is shaping up to be much like the Hogyoku - a Transcendent entity that was "created" rather than born through natural means (e.g. Ichigo).  

I've always held the mind that "Deicide" was a preview for what was to come later in the story, and I will most likely be proven right whenever we see Yhwach fully assimilate the Soul King's power into himself.  We didn't see much in "Deicide" because we likely were not meant to see exactly what their level of power was, even if that is where the concept of "planes of power" in Bleach comes from - Aizen reached a "plane of power" imperceptible to Shinigami, and Ichigo himself reached a plane higher than the one Aizen was on.  

We saw just how high the level of destructive power can get with Shinigami and Quincy through the "Thousand Year Blood War", and the abilities they can possess - Zanka No Tachi would have destroyed Soul Society if left active for too long; "The Visionary" created a Seireitei-razing meteor while Nozarashi destroyed said meteor in a single blow; Ichimonji can take the "Name" and "power" of anything it blots out, and Futen Daisatsuryo draws "blackness" from a hundred nights of the Soul Society from a hundred years in the future to create a mausoleum to crush the target down to nothingness not even allowing reincarnation.

But Yhwach is not a Quincy or Shinigami, even if he identifies himself as a Quincy.  With "The Almighty", he can see the distant future, "know" any power he sees with his eyes, making that power into his "ally", unable to kill or even harm him.  This is on top of the abilities we saw before - the ability "to share his soul" with others, and then to take back the power he gives once it is cultivated.  He was already extremely powerful before, and "opening" his eyes only served to reveal his true power, as seen when he blew apart Ichibei's body with just an exertion of power.

In a way, he is essentially a Humanoid Hogyoku because of his version of the rare Quincy ability "to share power with others", and a Transcendent because of that and his descent from the Soul King.

As to how this relates to the thread title, even if we will need to wait and see for the full extent of Yhwach's power, my foresight is telling me that Yhwach would win against Madara.



Sherlōck said:


> All these hax powers & he is going to get destroyed by someone who can only use one named attack.



Actually, one of "The Almighty's" weaknesses might be to not use any "named attacks" at all, or at least any ability or technique composed of reiryoku, reiatsu or reishi.  "The Almighty" essentially gives Yhwach dominance over "power", but there are certain abilities and fighters in Bleach who do not use or rely upon unique abilities in battle.  I am mainly referring to those characters who are primarily melee combatants, such as Zaraki Kenpachi.

The problem then, on the other hand, is being able to match or exceed Yhwach in a battle of pure reiatsu.  Given that Yhwach has immense power on top of "The Almighty", that is a lot to handle, not to mention his ability to see the future allowing him to know how his enemies will attack.


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## Tapion (Oct 5, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> All these hax powers & he is going to get destroyed by someone who can only use one named attack.



His only weakness so far is the mandatory power trade he does with Hashwalth. Bazz B said killing ether mid transfer would eliminate the power Yuha has. 

My theory is that Soul King will gain sentience annnnnnd....Picture Father vs Everyone FMA basically. Then he gets hit with the Getsuga....No....A double Getsuga Tenshou.


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## Sherlōck (Oct 5, 2015)

Catalyst75 said:


> Actually, one of "The Almighty's" weaknesses might be to not use any "named attacks" at all, or at least any ability or technique composed of reiryoku, reiatsu or reishi.  "The Almighty" essentially gives Yhwach dominance over "power", but there are certain abilities and fighters in Bleach who do not use or rely upon unique abilities in battle.  I am mainly referring to those characters who are primarily melee combatants, such as Zaraki Kenpachi.
> 
> The problem then, on the other hand, is being able to match or exceed Yhwach in a battle of pure reiatsu.  Given that Yhwach has immense power on top of "The Almighty", that is a lot to handle, not to mention his ability to see the future allowing him to know how his enemies will attack.



So Garp punches him. 



Tapion said:


> His only weakness so far is the mandatory power trade he does with Hashwalth. Bazz B said killing ether mid transfer would eliminate the power Yuha has.



Still disappointed that Shinsui didn't fight Hashwalth.



> My theory is that Soul King will gain sentience annnnnnd....Picture Father vs Everyone FMA basically. Then he gets hit with the Getsuga....No....A double Getsuga Tenshou.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 5, 2015)

Didn't Kubo already do double Getsuga Tenshou? Maybe it'll be a triple?


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## Akatora (Oct 5, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> All these hax powers & he is going to get destroyed by someone who can only use one named attack.



The unfortunate thing for Yhwach is that that named attack is related to himself.
Using "Gods power" To take down "God" Doesn't sound like a to far out possibility


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## LazyWaka (Oct 5, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> i actually was thinking about ichibei
> not sure what hax ivach has
> also juudara shouldn't be scalled to last feats
> *nardo and sauce could have gotten stronger from all we know*



The sequel series suggests the opposite in Naruto's case, actually.

Anyway, the stuff with the soul king was vague as shit. The description behind the soul king stabilizing the worlds was akin to him being a relief valve rather than actually holding the worlds together.

He acts as a passageway between worlds for the souls to flow through which in turn will destroy the world if the passages are taken away. Because of that this particular "feat" is stuck in the "wait and see" category.


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## Pocalypse (Oct 5, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> The sequel series suggests the opposite in Naruto's case, actually.
> 
> Anyway, the stuff with the soul king was vague as shit. The description behind the soul king stabilizing the worlds was akin to him being a relief valve rather than actually holding the worlds together.


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## Regicide (Oct 5, 2015)

Really if anything I think those pages support Waka here 

Probably safer to think of the Soul King being like a sink hole cover or something


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## Big Bοss (Oct 5, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> The sequel series suggests the opposite in Naruto's case, actually.
> 
> .



Are you suggesting he got weaker? Cause IIRC the only thing said in the gaiden was that he got rusty.


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## LazyWaka (Oct 5, 2015)

Big Bοss said:


> Are you suggesting he got weaker? Cause IIRC the only thing said in the gaiden was that he got rusty.



Close enough, really. The point is that what we're told suggests that he hasn't gotten any stronger.

And again, the feats he performed in the Last were done with just his KCSM. Not even BSM or the SPSM he used against Madara (which is his strongest form)


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## Big Bοss (Oct 5, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> Close enough, really. The point is that what we're told suggests that he hasn't gotten any stronger.
> 
> And again, the feats he performed in the Last were done with just his KCSM. Not even BSM or the SPSM he used against Madara (which is his strongest form)



I agree that there is no indications he got stronger, but being rusty doesn't mean he got weaker.

Btw would that mean he was at his strongest in the last? Cause the feats he performed were achieved with his weaker transformation, so imagine if that guy used SPSM in that fight


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## Shining Force (Oct 5, 2015)

Sage-lvl characters do have low reality-warping advanced hax like Onmyoton "Creation of all things" and Gudodama stuff. While in Bleach even guy like Gremmy lost to Kenny which shows their hax is weak or ineffective against a stronger character. Madara with Rinnesharingan awakened is stated to be near S06P lvl and should be stronger than Toneri.


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## LazyWaka (Oct 5, 2015)

Shining Force said:


> Sage-lvl characters do have low reality-warping advanced hax like Onmyoton "Creation of all things" and Gudodama stuff. While in Bleach even guy like Gremmy lost to Kenny which shows their hax is weak or ineffective against a stronger character. *Madara with Rinnesharingan awakened is stated to be near S06P lvl* and should be stronger than Toneri.



Out of curiosity where was that stated?


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## Tapion (Oct 5, 2015)

What does Onmyoton and Gudodama do again? 

Gremmy was a low level reality warper. All he ever did was change the composition of things or spawned things. He doesn't affect the Laws of his universe in anyway shape or form.


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## LazyWaka (Oct 5, 2015)

Tapion said:


> What does Onmyoton and Gudodama do again?



Onymouton is basically just a power negation thing that Juubi Jins/Six Paths users have. Gudodama (or truth seeker balls) are molecular destroying black orbs that can create/destroy shit. The only time we've ever seen the creation aspect of it though is when Toneri made a cage that trapped Hinata in it.

Though Kaguya was going to destroy a planet while simultaneously creating a new one with it. We never actually see the "creation of all things" ability, we only ever got a look at it's weaker "Izanagi" variant.


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## Sablés (Oct 5, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> He acts as a passageway between worlds for the souls to flow through which in turn will destroy the world if the passages are taken away. Because of that this particular "feat" is stuck in the "wait and see" category.



We already know this, Waka,

Point is that the passageway has to be strong enough to support the soul in the first place. Can't exactly support a structured system with inadequate material.


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## tkpirate (Oct 5, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> Out of curiosity where was that stated?






> riku: now that he is not the reincarnation of indra anymore, he obtained the power of the juubi he is becoming close to me\\ he is even getting closer to my mother?s power\\


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 5, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> The sequel series suggests the opposite in Naruto's case, actually.
> 
> Anyway, the stuff with the soul king was vague as shit. The description behind the soul king stabilizing the worlds was akin to him being a relief valve rather than actually holding the worlds together.
> 
> He acts as a passageway between worlds for the souls to flow through which in turn will destroy the world if the passages are taken away. Because of that this particular "feat" is stuck in the "wait and see" category.





Regicide said:


> Really if anything I think those pages support Waka here
> 
> Probably safer to think of the Soul King being like a sink hole cover or something



I'm guessing you two haven't been keeping up with soul king developments? 

The soul king isn't Just the passageway he's the guide and given yhwachs recent displays its pretty clear that the soul king is literally holding everything together.

Hell even if the soul king doesn't actually have to do anything to hold the world together, the arm and yhwach both stopped the sundering of the dimensions cold just by grabbing hold of the flow.

I.e

Planets being destroyed, shaken apart by a planet busting force of out of control souls

Yhwach/the arm step in

Thus force no longer exists because they hold the planets together or because they have corralled the planet busting energy back

Either way they are planet level.

You need an argument much more convincing than this to prove to me that the soul king, the arm and yhwach don't require some measure of planet busting energy to do what they do.


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## Yagami1211 (Oct 5, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> Onymouton is basically just a power negation thing that Juubi Jins/Six Paths users have. Gudodama (or truth seeker balls) are molecular destroying black orbs that can create/destroy shit. The only time we've ever seen the creation aspect of it though is when Toneri made a cage that trapped Hinata in it.
> 
> Though Kaguya was going to destroy a planet while simultaneously creating a new one with it. We never actually see the "creation of all things" ability, we only ever got a look at it's weaker "Izanagi" variant.



And Naruto creating Kakashi's eye.
Gudodama is the only thing in Naruto able to destroy Edo Tensei without any possible regeneration.


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## LazyWaka (Oct 5, 2015)

nightbringer said:


> I'm guessing you two haven't been keeping up with soul king developments?



Unless something new was revealed about it in the last 6 or so chapters, I'm pretty well caught up on info regarding the soul king.



nightbringer said:


> The soul king isn't Just the passageway he's the guide and given yhwachs recent displays its pretty clear that the soul king is literally holding everything together.



Except what we're told is that it has nothing to do with Holding anything together, it's just letting the souls pass through.



nightbringer said:


> Thus force no longer exists because they hold the planets together or *because they have corralled the planet busting energy back*



Only it's not that. In fact it's stated to be the exact opposite of that. They're not holding anything back, they're letting the souls pass through.



> Point is that the passageway has to be strong enough to support the soul in the first place. Can't exactly support a structured system with inadequate material.



That's like saying Hashirama has to have a high continent level energy output in order to make the restraints that tanked the Juubi's BB.


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## LazyWaka (Oct 5, 2015)

Yagami1211 said:


> And Naruto creating Kakashi's eye.
> Gudodama is the only thing in Naruto able to destroy Edo Tensei without any possible regeneration.



The databook stated that that's just some stupid super life force regeneration crap. It has nothing to do with any kind of hax. As for the edo tensei thing, that falls under the power negation ability I already mentioned.


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## Sablés (Oct 5, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> Except what we're told is that it has nothing to do with Holding anything together, it's just letting the souls pass through.



Except that's not stated either. All we are told is that he keeps the flow stable. The method is a complete unknown, most of this is just guesswork but the analogies given to support the anti-stance doesn't exactly contradict the planet-level whatever.




> That's like saying Hashirama has to have a high continent level energy output in order to make the restraints that tanked the Juubi's BB.


Are you implying Hashirama's energy would be irrelevant in the equation?


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## LazyWaka (Oct 5, 2015)

Liquid said:


> Are you implying Hashirama's energy would be irrelevant in the equation?



No, but are you implying that he has to have a comparable energy output to the Juubi's in order for his shit to tank it, or that him and the other kages have to have a comparable output in order for their barrier to funnel the Juubi's blast upwards?



> Except that's not stated either. All we are told is that he keeps the flow stable. The method is a complete unknown, most of this is just guesswork but the analogies given to support the anti-stance doesn't exactly contradict the planet-level whatever.



And none of that supports Planet Level Spirit king either. There are to many unknowns in the scenario to put anything to it yet.


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## Pocalypse (Oct 5, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Really if anything I think those pages support Waka here
> 
> Probably safer to think of the Soul King being like a sink hole cover or something



How? The pages I linked show Urahara AND Yhwach both stating that all the worlds will be destroyed if the Soul King dies. 

Here you can see Hueco Mundo and the Quincy stronghold being affected after the SK got cut, you can see the buildings starting to get destroyed and comments about earthquakes




Here you have Urahara saying the trembling has stopped after Mimihagi grabbed a hold of the SK



Yhwach then grabs the arm off the SK and the shaking has started again



It's pretty clear the SK holds all of the worlds, alot of evidence to back this up.


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## tkpirate (Oct 5, 2015)

SK's purpose is to keep the flow of souls stable in and out of SS.and the instability caused by the flow of those souls will make the SS collapse and as a result of that human world will collapse too.

Do SK need planet level energy to keep the flow stable? too much guess work I guess.


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## LazyWaka (Oct 5, 2015)

Just to clarify, I'm not saying it cant be Planet level. I'm just saying that we have to little to go on currently. It's like when people jumped the Gun at Rikudou Senin's Moon feat.

If it's actually at that level than theirs no fucking way that Kubo wouldn't elaborate on it further when it comes time for Juha to fight seriously.


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## Regicide (Oct 5, 2015)

Pocalypse said:


> How? The pages I linked show Urahara AND Yhwach both stating that all the worlds will be destroyed if the Soul King dies.


These aren't mutually exclusive

The Soul King can be like a screw that prevents a pipe from falling apart

And not the actual pipe that contains the liquid inside

And still have the conclusion be the same if the Soul King isn't around


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## Pocalypse (Oct 5, 2015)

Regicide said:


> These aren't mutually exclusive
> 
> The Soul King can be like a screw that prevents a pipe from falling apart
> 
> ...



Except that's not how it works in this case. 

Going by your screw logic, the screw doesn't regulate the liquid inside the pipe but the SK regulates the flows of souls which keeps all the dimensions together. He has to have some form of power to regulate the souls and keep the dimensions in place.


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## Big Bοss (Oct 5, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> Just to clarify, I'm not saying it cant be Planet level. I'm just saying that we have to little to go on currently. *It's like when people jumped the Gun at Rikudou Senin's Moon feat.*



Knew that shit was legit from day one, same thing with the bijuus


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## LazyWaka (Oct 5, 2015)

Regicide said:


> These aren't mutually exclusive
> 
> The Soul King can be like a screw that prevents a pipe from falling apart
> 
> ...



I think a better comparison would be the relief valve of a dam. Without it the dam is fucked.


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## Regicide (Oct 5, 2015)

I was never good at articulating myself


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## Sablés (Oct 5, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> No, but are you implying that he has to have a comparable energy output to the Juubi's in order for his shit to tank it, or that him and the other kages have to have a comparable output in order for their barrier to funnel the Juubi's blast upwards?



Uh yeah?

For one thing, for your argument to function you would have to prove:

A) The feat is not an outlier, assuming Hashirama truly isn't at that level
B) That the JD being blocked by Hashbrowns' wood carries any significant portion of the Juubi's total energy which is what you require for this comparison to even be made.

Face it Waka,  you can't make something out of nothing. A rudimentary barrier made by a guy with only town-level worth of energy isn't going to block a planet buster with just that.




> And none of that supports Planet Level Spirit king either. There are to many unknowns in the scenario to put anything to it yet.



None of what are you talking about there? There's really 2 possibilities, he's energetically involved or he isn't. Is it vague? Yeah, I guess and that's why I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the conservative stance you've taken here. Did tell Grahf to take this with a grain of salt.

That said, the valve theory isn't exactly solid either. Making this as simple as possible with the info we're given?

> Spirit King was created to regulate the flow of souls
>The whole system of their passing through  dimensions is independent of his existence, the original state of Soul Society is chaos

Hence why a notable excess or even stranger, _a  deficiency_ of souls is still liable to fuck shit up whether he's present or not so I'm not really seeing how you can count him as a simple cog in the machine. Either way you slice it, his primary function is to stabilize a planetary energy source, its not inherently related to flux of spirits.



LazyWaka said:


> Just to clarify, I'm not saying it cant be Planet level. I'm just saying that we have to little to go on currently. It's like when people jumped the Gun at Rikudou Senin's Moon feat.
> 
> If it's actually at that level than theirs no fucking way that Kubo wouldn't elaborate on it further when it comes time for Juha to fight seriously.



That's not even a legitimate comparison. Nobody considered the Moon feat because it was "just" lore detailing events that occurred before any of these guys were alive. Not exactly credible enough to go gung-ho over.

Here' we actually see what happened, its just a matter of interpretation of the mechanics. I agree with the second point, going to be awkward as hell if there's no referral to planet level energies in a fight


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## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Oct 5, 2015)

And without the Valve the worlds would pop like a balloon filled with too much water!

One question though.

Doesn't Onmyoton Null Powers made up of Physical Energy and/or Spiritual Energy Powers, because thats what Chakra/Ninjutsu is made up of?

Like when Juubito wasn't affected by Sasuke and Naruto's Black Flame RS, at all.

So, wouldn't the TSB with Onmyoton in it, Nullifiy Juha's Nullifiy canceling each other's Nulls out and then the TSB would turn Juha to nothing and destroy his Soul from coming back.

I always saw this battle as both Null each others Null, basically removing the "Almighty" from doing anything but allowing Juha to attack Madara with Spiritual Powers.

Cause Madara would just absorb whatever Juha throws at him.

As one last question.

Would the "Almighty" Null anything from Yang Kurama, since he doesn't have any Spiritual Energy in him, but can still use his Jutsu normally.

Really, more surprised how Kubo got away with so many powers like *Mayuri's Izanami*, the eye powers, and having *power that Nulls other powers*, coming out so soon right after all that stuff just happened in Naruto.

Mostly the Bolded.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Oct 5, 2015)

I do believe Wombat said something about locking HST threads at page 5

My mistake it was 3


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