# The Hulk vs Fighting Game Characters



## Ryuji Yamazaki (Oct 12, 2010)

Which fighting game characters (particularly large bricky types) could you see as being a credible match for the Hulk?


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## Emperor Joker (Oct 12, 2010)

Which incarnation of the Hulk


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## Cypher0120 (Oct 12, 2010)

Do we take characters from crossover fighting games?


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 12, 2010)

In addition to specifying which version of the Hulk, you should probably lay down some rules for what counts as a fighting game character, or else we can cheat with various high level Marvel, DC, DBZ, Nasuverse, Touhou, etc. characters that have appeared in fighting games.

As far as purely fighting game characters go, only the higher level Darkstalkers cast comes to mind. I think Guilty Gear is supposed to be pretty powerful too, but I haven't played many of them.


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## Tranquil Fury (Oct 12, 2010)

What version of the Hulk? Though keep in mind he's highly immune to psychic attacks, has regeneration on cellular level, class 100 and he also gets stronger with his rage as the fight continues. I can't really think of any at the moment are bricks good enough to hang with him.


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## Kurou (Oct 12, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> *Touhou,* etc.





Ryuji Yamazaki said:


> (particularly large bricky types)



**


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 12, 2010)

Suika can qualify. 

But as far as that substantially more limited pool goes... Pyron looks pretty bulky. Would he count as a brick, or is he excluded due to being a shapeshifter?


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## CrazyMoronX (Oct 12, 2010)

Thanos from Marvel vs Capcom.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 12, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> In addition to specifying which version of the Hulk, you should probably lay down some rules for what counts as a fighting game character, or else we can cheat with various high level Marvel, DC, DBZ, Nasuverse, Touhou, etc. characters that have appeared in fighting games.



As if any Touhou character could beat the Hulk


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 12, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> As if any Touhou character could beat the Hulk



Many of the top tiers could, assuming standard Savage Hulk.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 12, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Many of the top tiers could, assuming standard Savage Hulk.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 12, 2010)

So which issue was it that Hulk became immune to being deleted from history? How about being time locked for eternity? Destroyed or split on the atomic level? Warped into a childrens' story book? Dispersed as mist due to lowered density? Flat out destroyed by a power canonically capable of destroying anything? Killed with a thought?

Or do you just find the idea of supporting your conclusion with arguments stupid?


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## Zaelapolopollo (Oct 12, 2010)

He's not exactly the brick shithouse type but Pyron from Darkstalkers is pretty big.


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## zenieth (Oct 12, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> So which issue was it that Hulk became immune to being deleted from history? How about being time locked for eternity? Destroyed or split on the atomic level? Warped into a childrens' story book? Dispersed as mist due to lowered density? Flat out destroyed by a power canonically capable of destroying anything? Killed with a thought?
> 
> Or do you just find the idea of supporting your conclusion with arguments stupid?



When the fuck did all of this happen? I've played three of the games and I must of missed a fuck ton.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 12, 2010)

zenieth said:


> When the fuck did all of this happen? I've played three of the games and I must of missed a fuck ton.



they never really use the powers that he listed but those are canon abilities of alot of characters


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 12, 2010)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> He's not exactly the brick shithouse type but Pyron from Darkstalkers is pretty big.



Big enough to wear planets as rings, even. That seems a bit out of the average Hulk's league, though, so who's next down the tier list? Anakaris? It seems to me like the top tiers of Darkstalkers are too strong for the Hulk while the rest are too weak.



zenieth said:


> When the fuck did all of this happen? I've played three of the games and I must of missed a fuck ton.



The spellcard system probably exists to prevent the end of the world every time there's a disagreement between higher level characters. Most of the written work and character profiles go into more details about what they're capable of.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Oct 12, 2010)

@Es
How the heck will physical durability protect him from being erased from time?


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## Endless Mike (Oct 12, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> So which issue was it that Hulk became immune to being deleted from history?





Also, 



> A usual mistake about her abilities is people mistake the ability of hakutaku-Keine as to be able to erase a piece of history; however, her ability in her hakutaku form is to create it, and in humanoid form is to eat (or conceal) it; fundamentally she can only conceal it, not erase.





> How about being time locked for eternity?







> Destroyed or split on the atomic level?







> Warped into a childrens' story book?







> Dispersed as mist due to lowered density?








> Flat out destroyed by a power canonically capable of destroying anything?



No - limits fallacy.



> Killed with a thought?







> Or do you just find the idea of supporting your conclusion with arguments stupid?



I've got a counter for everything you posted. It's kind of funny, actually


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## Crimson Dragoon (Oct 12, 2010)

HULK SMASH PUNY PEDO BAIT


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## Sephiroth (Oct 12, 2010)

Chris is totally a match for the Hulk. 

Potemkin and Tager maybe?


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## Shade Impulse (Oct 12, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Also,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The first one just says he returns eventually, how long does someone have to be gone for it to count as BFR?


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## Endless Mike (Oct 12, 2010)

If he still has an enemy to defeat, pretty quickly. Also it's irrelevant because the other poster misinterpreted that ability.


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## Shade Impulse (Oct 12, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> If he still has an enemy to defeat, pretty quickly. Also it's irrelevant because the other poster misinterpreted that ability.



I see.

The third one says his skin would be flayed from his skeleton, as an answer to destroyed on atomic level. Does that really sync up? It seems like atomic destruction is different from having his flesh ripped off.

As a side note, why the hell can Hulk do all of this!? I thought he was suppose to be a rage fueled destruction machine, not completely unbeatable.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Oct 12, 2010)

Hulk's anger breaks reality itself


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## Endless Mike (Oct 12, 2010)

Shade Impulse said:


> I see.
> 
> The third one says his skin would be flayed from his skeleton, as an answer to destroyed on atomic level. Does that really sync up? It seems like atomic destruction is different from having his flesh ripped off.



Vector can rip reality itself apart on a quantum level and entire planets.



> As a side note, why the hell can Hulk do all of this!? I thought he was suppose to be a rage fueled destruction machine, not completely unbeatable.



He's not completely unbeatable, but if people want to use Touhou abilities which are claimed but never actually demonstrated, I can use all of the Hulk's wanked feats and abilities.


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## Emperor Joker (Oct 12, 2010)

Shade Impulse said:


> I see.
> 
> The third one says his skin would be flayed from his skeleton, as an answer to destroyed on atomic level. Does that really sync up? It seems like atomic destruction is different from having his flesh ripped off.
> 
> As a side note, why the hell can Hulk do all of this!? I thought he was suppose to be a rage fueled destruction machine, not completely unbeatable.



He's not unbeatable. the writers just tend to forget that though


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 12, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Also,



I don't see him being deleted from history anywhere in that scan. Some context would be helpful. Oh, and...



> In human form, she can only conceal histories, but in hakutaku form, she has full control over every aspect of Gensokyo's history and can create new histories at will.





> She can fabricate history that didn't happen, or conversely, erase from history incidents which actually did happen.



I'll take canon statements from her profiles over fan speculation.


Okay, now can you explain how this time storm is identical to a world where change is rendered impossible?


Isn't this a rather blatant outlier? How does Hulk ever get hurt by anything if he can apparently withstand the reality he's occupying getting obliterated?


Sorry, but how does this address the point at all? Did Hulk become Trion Juggernaut when we weren't looking, to the point where he can punch his way out of whatever universe he's dropped into? I'm not really seeing how the ability to snap himself out of a good dream helps him escape after he's warped into someone else's comic, or made part of a painting.


Another instance where context would be nice. Suika's density manipulation may be on a higher level, as well, considering it's not limited to physical matter.



> No - limits fallacy.



Word of God, so which of Hulk's powers allow him to withstand the core of his being getting crushed?


More context, please. Nothing in this scan tells me how he'll stop someone who can make him drop dead on a whim and control his soul afterwords.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Oct 12, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> HULK SMASH PUNY PEDO BAIT


**


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## Es (Oct 12, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Vector can rip reality itself apart on a quantum level and entire planets.
> 
> 
> 
> He's not completely unbeatable, but if people want to use Touhou abilities which are claimed but never actually demonstrated, I can use all of the Hulk's wanked feats and abilities.


Say what you will about the feats but Peter David's run is still awesome


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## Shade Impulse (Oct 12, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Vector can rip reality itself apart on a quantum level and entire planets.
> 
> 
> 
> He's not completely unbeatable, but if people want to use Touhou abilities which are claimed but never actually demonstrated, I can use all of the Hulk's wanked feats and abilities.



Is that what he tried to do to Hulk, or is it just something he could of done? There might be some context I'm missing here.

If I knew more about Touhou, maybe I wouldn't even be asking 

EDIT: Looks like my questions will be answered without me asking. *sits and waits*


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## Es (Oct 12, 2010)

Shade Impulse said:


> Is that what he tried to do to Hulk, or is it just something he could of done? There might be some context I'm missing here.
> 
> If I knew more about Touhou, maybe I wouldn't even be asking


It was something he did to himself actually, he once transported the U-Foes into the crossroads, another dimensional plane that the hulk was banished to by dr strange, if I'm not mistaken.


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## zenieth (Oct 12, 2010)

Why is the card system in place if they have such fantastical abilities? Why don't they just go at it full force then get someone with the ability to just retcon the shit?


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 12, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> He's not completely unbeatable, *but if people want to use Touhou abilities which are claimed but never actually demonstrated,* I can use all of the Hulk's wanked feats and abilities.



If profiles made by the creator of the series aren't credible, what is? Especially since there's a perfectly valid in-universe reason these powers aren't spammed and the characters are shown to be capable of much more than the usual pretty light shows when not operating under the spellcard rules.



zenieth said:


> Why is the card system in place if they have such fantastical abilities? Why don't they just go at it full force then get someone with the ability to just retcon the shit?



Because the most powerful shown character in the series actually cares about the world quite a bit and would probably be more than a little upset if it was being blown up every other day?


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 12, 2010)

zenieth said:


> Why is the card system in place if they have such fantastical abilities? Why don't they just go at it full force then get someone with the ability to just retcon the shit?



something about them wiping out the earth if they all went all out  considering if you look at there powers


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## zenieth (Oct 12, 2010)

That still does not explain why they don't just get a very hax healer to completely retcon that shit.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 12, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> I don't see him being deleted from history anywhere in that scan. Some context would be helpful. Oh, and...



Maestro was from an alternate timeline where he was destroyed, but rematerialized. He states they will always come back.



> I'll take canon statements from her profiles over fan speculation.



What makes it speculation? And you could try putting up some actual feats there.



> Okay, now can you explain how this time storm is identical to a world where change is rendered impossible?



Hulk can punch through time. That should be enough for you.



> Isn't this a rather blatant outlier? How does Hulk ever get hurt by anything if he can apparently withstand the reality he's occupying getting obliterated?



He's actually done that at least twice, and if you want to use wanked no - limits fallacy claims then so can I. At least I have actual feats to back mine up, not just claims 



> Sorry, but how does this address the point at all? Did Hulk become Trion Juggernaut when we weren't looking, to the point where he can punch his way out of whatever universe he's dropped into? I'm not really seeing how the ability to snap himself out of a good dream helps him escape after he's warped into someone else's comic, or made part of a painting.



That scan shows him resisting reality warping from Glorian, the apprentice of the Shaper of Worlds. Shaper of Worlds is a Cube Being with universal+ reality warping. Glorian said the Hulk was able to resist his (Glorian's) powers which was unheard of.



> Another instance where context would be nice. Suika's density manipulation may be on a higher level, as well, considering it's not limited to physical matter.



Vision tries to get inside him and do exactly what you said earlier to him. Hulk says fuck that shit and kicks him out. Doesn't get any more simple than that.



> Word of God



Still a no - limits fallacy. Try showing actual feats (I know about the one with the meteor, but that's pathetic, as I can bring up Hulk smashing an asteroid twice the size of earth)



> so which of Hulk's powers allow him to withstand the core of his being getting crushed?



The fact that he's tougher and more resistant than anything this has ever been used on? Auto-resurrection is also nice.



> More context, please. Nothing in this scan tells me how he'll stop someone who can make him drop dead on a whim and control his soul afterwords.



The point is that he can auto-resurrect after dying. As for souls, his soul is just as tough as he is, and when a spiritual being tried to pull it out of his body, his soul smashed his non-corporeal ass back to where it came from and went back inside. I don't actually have that scan, but I can show you him beating Doctor Strange in astral form: 




Notice what's happening here: Dr. Strange is in his Sanctum Sanctorum (which is actually another dimension) and he is astral projecting to try to talk to Hulk, but Hulk crushes the hands of his projection, which is basically his soul, and the damage transfers to his physical body.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 12, 2010)

zenieth said:


> That still does not explain why they don't just get a very hax healer to completely retcon that shit.



i do remember people talking about a character who is *POSSIBLY*omnipotent in the series all though he is only mentioned in some of the touhou stuff outside of the games never actually seen if he is omnipotent then theres your very haxed healer


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## Endless Mike (Oct 12, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> If profiles made by the creator of the series aren't credible, what is?



Feats.



> Especially since there's a perfectly valid in-universe reason these powers aren't spammed and the characters are shown to be capable of much more than the usual pretty light shows when not operating under the spellcard rules.



Too bad, means nothing without feats to back it up.



> Because the most powerful shown character in the series actually cares about the world quite a bit and would probably be more than a little upset if it was being blown up every other day?



Those kinds of excuses only work if you actually have some kind of precedent for the feats you're claiming. Otherwise it's on the same level as "Cell didn't destroy the solar system because that would have ruined the plot".


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 12, 2010)

zenieth said:


> Why is the card system in place if they have such fantastical abilities? Why don't they just go at it full force then get someone with the ability to just retcon the shit?



Cuz of the barrier between Gensokyo and our world. And Reimu protects that. She dies, Gensokyo and all of it's inhabitants go bye bye. Funny considering it was portrayed in a non-canon doujin game which gives an idea. But the card system wasn't implemented till the 6th game. So previous games, characters were getting killed and what not.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 12, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Cuz of the barrier between Gensokyo and our world. And Reimu protects that. She dies, Gensokyo and all of it's inhabitants go bye bye.



Then Hulk kills her. The end.


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## zenieth (Oct 12, 2010)

that was wrapped up rather nicely.


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## Shade Impulse (Oct 12, 2010)

It's about fighting games vs Hulk isn't it? If she wasn't in a fighting game, then it doesn't really wrap up anything...was Touhou ever even a fighting game?


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## Watchman (Oct 12, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Cuz of the barrier between Gensokyo and our world. And Reimu protects that. She dies, Gensokyo and all of it's inhabitants go bye bye. Funny considering it was portrayed in a non-canon doujin game which gives an idea. But the card system wasn't implemented till the 6th game. So previous games, characters were getting killed and what not.



That's not how it works, is it? I'm fairly sure that if Reimu dies, the barrier falls and Gensokyo just reappears on Earth, in the part of Japan that it originally came from.

Yes, Shade Impulse, there are Touhou fighting games, and Reimu's a part of them.


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## Shade Impulse (Oct 12, 2010)

Watchman said:


> That's not how it works, is it? I'm fairly sure that if Reimu dies, the barrier falls and Gensokyo just reappears on Earth, in the part of Japan that it originally came from.
> 
> Yes, Shade Impulse, there are Touhou fighting games, and Reimu's a part of them.



Oh, okay then....continue your arguing


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## Endless Mike (Oct 12, 2010)

Watchman said:


> That's not how it works, is it? I'm fairly sure that if Reimu dies, the barrier falls and Gensokyo just reappears on Earth, in the part of Japan that it originally came from.



Then Hulk sinks Japan, and maybe smashes the entire earth just for good measure. Then jumps to the moon and smashes that too, since I know some of them live there.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 12, 2010)

Watchman said:


> That's not how it works, is it? I'm fairly sure that if Reimu dies, the barrier falls and Gensokyo just reappears on Earth, in the part of Japan that it originally came from.
> 
> Yes, Shade Impulse, there are Touhou fighting games, and Reimu's a part of them.



I know the location is in a region of Japan but it's still one of the theories that comes up.


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## Watchman (Oct 12, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Then Hulk sinks Japan, and maybe smashes the entire earth just for good measure. Then jumps to the moon and smashes that too, since I know some of them live there.



Hey, I'm contesting that Hulk with those feats solos the Touhouverse. Only thing I can think of that hasn't been covered already is Yukari BFR'ing him, but I'm certain you have a scan that shows that won't be a problem either.

I honestly never knew Hulk was _that_ strong, though, so kudos for the education.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 12, 2010)

Watchman said:


> Hey, I'm contesting that Hulk with those feats solos the Touhouverse. Only thing I can think of that hasn't been covered already is Yukari BFR'ing him, but I'm certain you have a scan that shows that won't be a problem either.










> I honestly never knew Hulk was _that_ strong, though, so kudos for the education.



They don't call him the strongest one there is for nothing.


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## Shade Impulse (Oct 12, 2010)

No matter how strong they make him, I will still never like him 

What Fighting games are there that actually could take the Hulk?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 12, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> They don't call him the strongest one there is for nothing.



Old school Hulk looks like a cave man.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 12, 2010)

Shade Impulse said:


> No matter how strong they make him, I will still never like him
> 
> What Fighting games are there that actually could take the Hulk?



dark stalkers is one that could


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 12, 2010)

Shade Impulse said:


> What Fighting games are there that actually could take the Hulk?



Marvel vs Capcom 2 

Servbot >>> Thanos w/ Infinity Gauntlet


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## Watchman (Oct 12, 2010)

Uh, whoops, I typo'd. I'm *not* contesting that Hulk could solo the Touhouverse.


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## MichaelUN89 (Oct 12, 2010)

GioGio from a vs game for ps2  

Arceus?


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## Emperor Joker (Oct 12, 2010)

MichaelUN89 said:


> GioGio from a vs game for ps2
> 
> *Arceus*?



I don't think Pokemon was the fighting game the OP had in mind


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Oct 12, 2010)

I'd never bothered with learning what the fuck Touhou was til today when I looked at that wiki and suddenly I feel... unclean.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 12, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Maestro was from an alternate timeline where he was destroyed, but rematerialized. He states they will always come back.



Wouldn't being erased from history mean he never existed to begin with? How exactly is that the same thing?



> What makes it speculation? And you could try putting up some actual feats there.



What makes it speculation? Other than the fact that the creator of the series himself has stated that she can do more than just create history in her EX form? If Word of God says you're wrong, you're wrong. It's really that simple, and as far as feats go she's already manipulated the history of an entire village while in her weaker state. Her EX form has never been seen outside of a single spellcard duel in Imperishable Night.



> Hulk can punch through time. That should be enough for you.



It's really not. Unless you can explain to me what punching through time entails I'm not seeing how it brings change to a world where change doesn't exist.



> He's actually done that at least twice, and if you want to use wanked no - limits fallacy claims then so can I. At least I have actual feats to back mine up, not just claims



Is that supposed to change the fact that it's an obvious outlier, like a great deal of his other earlier stuff? The Silver Age was nuts for everybody.



> That scan shows him resisting reality warping from Glorian, the apprentice of the Shaper of Worlds. Shaper of Worlds is a Cube Being with universal+ reality warping. Glorian said the Hulk was able to resist his (Glorian's) powers which was unheard of.



Again, what does this have to do with a living portal gun warping him wherever she pleases?



> Vision tries to get inside him and do exactly what you said earlier to him. Hulk says fuck that shit and kicks him out. Doesn't get any more simple than that.



Looks like it's working until Vision starts getting backlash from the Hulk's resistance. Not a problem with Suika since she can do it from hundreds of thousands of miles away and doesn't have to be inside her target.



> Still a no - limits fallacy. Try showing actual feats (I know about the one with the meteor, but that's pathetic, as I can bring up Hulk smashing an asteroid twice the size of earth)



It can be assumed to apply to anything found in the Touhouverse unless, again, you're trying to suggest that ZUN is mistaken about his own series and characters. I know you're far more sensible than that.



> The fact that he's tougher and more resistant than anything this has ever been used on? Auto-resurrection is also nice.



When did durability become a factor? She attacks a metaphysical 'eye' of the target which is apparently it's weakest point, destroying the associated being. It's obviously not the soul since meteorites don't have any, so what has Hulk done to suggest he's resistant to it?



> The point is that he can auto-resurrect after dying. As for souls, his soul is just as tough as he is, and when a spiritual being tried to pull it out of his body, his soul smashed his non-corporeal ass back to where it came from and went back inside. I don't actually have that scan, but I can show you him beating Doctor Strange in astral form:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fair enough, I can concede this much despite WWH being rather abysmal. Although, was his soul just being physically pulled out, or was it being controlled? I'd assume there's a slight difference as far as resisting goes, but maybe not.



Endless Mike said:


> Too bad, means nothing without feats to back it up.



Like Shinki creating her own universe and apparently wrecking it in her fight with Reimu? Eirin sealing off the entire planet from an advanced civilization capable of light speed travel with their most primitive vehicles, at least one method of teleportation, and wielding the power of various gods whenever they want? Suika effortlessly tearing open the heavens and shattering the moon because she thought she was being looked down upon? Cirno (A weakling) dropping temperatures so low it breaks the laws of physics? Reimu accidentally blowing up the entire planet in the very first game's bad ending with a single Yin-Yang orb? Yukari unbalancing life and death or freezing the night? Those kinds of feats?

It's clear that Touhou is a fairly strong universe, so I'm not sure why you find it so unbelievable that broken abilities used by it's highest tiers could beat the Hulk. When I said standard Savage Hulk, I certainly didn't mean a cherry picked version using Hulk's highest feats and nothing else. Although, if you're looking for a concession then sure, I'll admit that Touhou might stalemate such a Hulk due to neither side being able to permanently kill the other. Touhou characters can apparently use their powers while dead, after all, and Yukari can and has ripped open a hole between the land of the dead and the living world. It would be an endless cycle. 



> Those kinds of excuses only work if you actually have some kind of precedent for the feats you're claiming. Otherwise it's on the same level as "Cell didn't destroy the solar system because that would have ruined the plot".



Yukari being able to make the rest of Gensokyo her bitch is canon. 



> She easily has enough power to annihilate all of Gensokyo if she so desires, so it's probably a good thing that she is somewhat weird...



Since that's from her IN profile, it's another thing you can't argue against without trying to claim that the person who created the series doesn't know what he's talking about.

Although this is getting nowhere. You're quite fun to debate with, but we're not doing a very good job of convincing each other. We could always agree to disagree and rerail the thread, if you like. No hard feelings and such?


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## Cygnus45 (Oct 12, 2010)

Only relevent matchups:

Classic Hulk (Slow-moving Frankenstein-inspired, leaps several miles in a jump, tosses army tanks, city-block durablty). Good matchups are:

-Mishimas, Paul, Azazel 
-Liu Kang and Kung Lao
-Kyo Kusanagi, Iori, and Ash from KOF
-God Rugal
-SF mid-tiers, Ryu, Bison, Juri, Adon, etc.
-BB Hood

Most ppl listed would have trouble with his regen, but they might be able to put him down by pressuring him or working together.

Current Hulk (Calm), city-block-mountain level destructive capacity, enormous regen at the molecular level, can survive in the vacuum of space and resist mental assaults to a degree:

-Akuma, Oro, Gen. They have a big chance if they work together.
-Shao Kahn and Onaga could soul-fuck or BFR him, though they'd have to do it quick. 
-Raiden could take advantage of his speed and intangibility to overwhelm him or drop him in a black-hole. Plus, Hulk wouldn't be able to kill him.
-Feng Wei
-Sol Badguy, Potemkin, Ky Kiske
-Tager
-Tengu, Ryu Hayabusa

Pissed off Hulk (Planet-wrecker)

-Pyron, Jeddah
-Shinnok


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## Weather (Oct 12, 2010)

Just Making a point (hell the touhou hate is big here but whatever)

The Spellcard Sistem apart from protecting Gensokyo is for making every Touhou Fight a Fair battle with equal chances, That's why Humans like Marisa can stand up to High tiers Like Flandre (who could kill her just by saying "Kyuuu") And also for preventing deaths (Yorihime in SSiB agrees to fight with the sistem to prevent spilling blood on the moon).

Now continue with your hate or love or whatever


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## Endless Mike (Oct 12, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Wouldn't being erased from history mean he never existed to begin with? How exactly is that the same thing?



What part of "alternate timeline" do you not understand?



> What makes it speculation? Other than the fact that the creator of the series himself has stated that she can do more than just create history in her EX form?



I'm talking about the other form.



> If Word of God says you're wrong, you're wrong. It's really that simple, and as far as feats go she's already manipulated the history of an entire village while in her weaker state. Her EX form has never been seen outside of a single spellcard duel in Imperishable Night.



Wow, an entire village. That so compares to Glorian's casual planetary reality warping. No, wait, in fact it doesn't.



> It's really not. Unless you can explain to me what punching through time entails I'm not seeing how it brings change to a world where change doesn't exist.



Hulk makes change exist, if he's made enough he screws all rules of physics and logic and does crazy stuff like punching through all of time and space.



> Is that supposed to change the fact that it's an obvious outlier, like a great deal of his other earlier stuff? The Silver Age was nuts for everybody.



Doesn't change the fact that it's canon.



> Again, what does this have to do with a living portal gun warping him wherever she pleases?



He resist the warping and pulls himself out of it.



> Looks like it's working until Vision starts getting backlash from the Hulk's resistance. Not a problem with Suika since she can do it from hundreds of thousands of miles away and doesn't have to be inside her target.



First of all, feats, second of all, he can resist it so he shakes it off.



> It can be assumed to apply to anything found in the Touhouverse unless, again, you're trying to suggest that ZUN is mistaken about his own series and characters. I know you're far more sensible than that.



1. Even the characters that are way above her, like the dragon?

2. Hulk is not anything found in Touhouverse.



> When did durability become a factor? She attacks a metaphysical 'eye' of the target which is apparently it's weakest point, destroying the associated being. It's obviously not the soul since meteorites don't have any, so what has Hulk done to suggest he's resistant to it?



The fact that he's known to resist just about any type of attack, including reality warping, on a much greater scale.



> Fair enough, I can concede this much despite WWH being rather abysmal. Although, was his soul just being physically pulled out, or was it being controlled? I'd assume there's a slight difference as far as resisting goes, but maybe not.



His soul was being absorbed but he resisted it.



> Like Shinki creating her own universe and apparently wrecking it in her fight with Reimu?



1. Non-canon

2. We have no proof of any of this other than fallible character statements



> Eirin sealing off the entire planet from an advanced civilization capable of light speed travel with their most primitive vehicles, at least one method of teleportation, and wielding the power of various gods whenever they want?



And how is this supposed to help them win?



> Suika effortlessly tearing open the heavens and shattering the moon because she thought she was being looked down upon?



Hulk shits on moonbusting



> Cirno (A weakling) dropping temperatures so low it breaks the laws of physics?



Hulk has resisted absolute zero.



> Reimu accidentally blowing up the entire planet in the very first game's bad ending with a single Yin-Yang orb?



Bad endings are non-canon.



> Yukari unbalancing life and death or freezing the night?



What does that actually mean? BTW I read a game script that said that Yukari was trying to breach the Gensokyo barrier but couldn't, or at least was having a difficult time doing so. That shuts down most of the wank for her people use.



> Those kinds of feats?



Some actually relevant feats would be useful.



> It's clear that Touhou is a fairly strong universe, so I'm not sure why you find it so unbelievable that broken abilities used by it's highest tiers could beat the Hulk. When I said standard Savage Hulk, I certainly didn't mean a cherry picked version using Hulk's highest feats and nothing else.



And when I said Touhou, I certainly didn't mean a fanwanked version where you take all statements as 100% fact, even no - limits fallacies.



> Although, if you're looking for a concession then sure, I'll admit that Touhou might stalemate such a Hulk due to neither side being able to permanently kill the other. Touhou characters can apparently use their powers while dead, after all, and Yukari can and has ripped open a hole between the land of the dead and the living world. It would be an endless cycle.



Again, Hulk can beat up souls/ghosts.



> Yukari being able to make the rest of Gensokyo her bitch is canon.
> Since that's from her IN profile, it's another thing you can't argue against without trying to claim that the person who created the series doesn't know what he's talking about.



Gensokyo is - what, a region small enough to fit somewhere in Japan?

Is that supposed to impress anyone?



> Although this is getting nowhere. You're quite fun to debate with, but we're not doing a very good job of convincing each other. We could always agree to disagree and rerail the thread, if you like. No hard feelings and such?



I suppose


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 12, 2010)

Weather said:


> Just Making a point (hell the touhou hate is big here but whatever)
> 
> The Spellcard Sistem apart from protecting Gensokyo is for making every Touhou Fight a Fair battle with equal chances, That's why Humans like Marisa can stand up to High tiers Like Flandre (who could kill her just by saying "Kyuuu") And also for preventing deaths (Yorihime in SSiB agrees to fight with the sistem to prevent spilling blood on the moon).
> 
> Now continue with your hate or love or whatever



Then explain how Marisa could fight and beat Shinki before the Spell Card system was initiated.

Not that the system even makes any sense. If you're so much more powerful than someone that you can crush them easily, why would you agree to play by their rules and not do so?


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 12, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Then explain how Marisa could fight and beat Shinki before the Spell Card system was initiated.



i think that was PIS more then anything


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 12, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Then explain how Marisa could fight and beat Shinki before the Spell Card system was initiated.
> 
> Not that the system even makes any sense. If you're so much more powerful than someone that you can crush them easily, why would you agree to play by their rules and not do so?



Marisa is the second strongest human character besides Reimu plus trained under Mima who was one of Reimu's strongest opponents in the past.

Reimu's naturally powerful while Marisa on the other hand works her ass off. So level grinding to put in those words.

And it's also made painfully aware that the strongest Yokai in the series just cause mischief because they're bored as hell (yes this is a legit reason why they play along), so PIS and CIS for them.


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## Orochibuto (Oct 12, 2010)

Mugen is a fighting game technically  

And unlike other fighting games having balanced characters is worth a shit. In fact mugenverse has many years in a war between creators of who creates the most powerful and unbalanced character, as a result attacks like reality warping, wishing our adversary out of existence, destroying the planet/galaxy/universe are literal attacks in the game no hyperboles and have the effect saids attacks should have.

There is an anime girl that you must defeat within the first 10 minutes of the fight, otherwise she will reality warp the fight and she wins automatically while the poor creature that dared to fight her disappears in a white light of existence, I bet she can defeat Hulk.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 12, 2010)

Orochibuto said:


> Mugen is a fighting game technically
> 
> And unlike other fighting games having balanced characters is worth a shit. In fact mugenverse has many years in a war between creators of who creates the most powerful and unbalanced character, as a result attacks like reality warping, wishing our adversary out of existence, destroying the planet/galaxy/universe are literal attacks in the game no hyperboles and have the effect saids attacks should have.
> 
> There is an anime girl that you must defeat within the first 10 minutes of the fight, otherwise she will reality warp the fight and she wins automatically while the poor creature that dared to fight her disappears in a white light of existence, I bet she can defeat Hulk.



Rare Akuma


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## Endless Mike (Oct 12, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Marisa is the second strongest human character besides Reimu plus trained under Mima who was one of Reimu's strongest opponents in the past.
> 
> Reimu's naturally powerful while Marisa on the other hand works her ass off. So level grinding to put in those words.



Yet her most powerful attack is noted to have the ability to destroy a mountain. Which really doesn't measure up.



> And it's also made painfully aware that the strongest Yokai in the series just cause mischief because they're bored as hell (yes this is a legit reason why they play along), so PIS and CIS for them.



In every single game they have some sort of goal or aim that the MCs are trying to stop, so if they have any intention of actually completing these goals they shouldn't do that. Unless you're saying that they're all just retarded.


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## Weather (Oct 12, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Then explain how Marisa could fight and beat Shinki before the Spell Card system was initiated.
> 
> Not that the system even makes any sense. If you're so much more powerful than someone that you can crush them easily, why would you agree to play by their rules and not do so?



Naaa Marisa's case was more PIS that Anything.

Second point because Everyone in Touhou Loves Gensokyo more than anything (The SDM like living there, Yukari Loves Gensokyo to hell, Kaguya hides from the Moon By being in Gensokyo, Kanako and the Moriyas because they Can gather faith more easily from youkai, Utsuho was just Crazy (And I don't think she's more powerfull than Reimu at all) and Rin actually wanted to Stop her).
And if Reimu Dies Gensokyo goes to hell.




basch71 said:


> Marisa is the second strongest human character besides Reimu plus trained under Mima who was one of Reimu's strongest opponents in the past.
> 
> Reimu's naturally powerful while Marisa on the other hand works her ass off. So level grinding to put in those words.
> 
> And it's also made painfully aware that the strongest Yokai in the series just cause mischief because they're bored as hell (yes this is a legit reason why they play along), so PIS and CIS for them.



I believe the second Strongest Human is Mokou.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 12, 2010)

Weather said:


> Naaa Marisa's case was more PIS that Anything.
> 
> Second point because Everyone in Touhou Loves Gensokyo more than anything (The SDM like living there, Yukari Loves Gensokyo to hell, Kaguya hides from the Moon By being in Gensokyo, Kanako and the Moriyas because they Can gather faith more easily from youkai, Utsuho was just Crazy (And I don't think she's more powerfull than Reimu at all) and Rin actually wanted to Stop her).
> And if Reimu Dies Gensokyo goes to hell.



Is that actually even canon or just in that fan game? And even if it was, how would they all know that? And how does that stop them from easily defeating her without killing her? And even if they did kill her, with all of the powers that are claimed why couldn't they just undo it? And that still doesn't explain why they hold back against Marisa or Sakuya or whoever.


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## Weather (Oct 12, 2010)

> In every single game they have some sort of goal or aim that the MCs are trying to stop, so if they have any intention of actually completing these goals they shouldn't do that. Unless you're saying that they're all just retarded.



Yeah but they actually weren't that bad.

Remilia wanted to put Scarlet Mist to go outside in sunlight.
Yuyuko wanted to revive the Saigouji Ayakashi because she felt it was important (She didn't knew that her own body kept sealed the tree)
Eirin was the one that planned the plot in IN and she didn't Knew that the Moon wouldn't find them in Gensokyo.
Suika just wanted to party.
Kanako Just wanted to gather more faith and have Reimu's Shrine join the Moriya.
Utsuho believed she could just go outside and take Gensokyo.
Tenshi just wanted to have fun with the Youkai.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 12, 2010)

> Yet her most powerful attack is noted to have the ability to destroy a mountain. Which really doesn't measure up.



Yeah, in power. What exactly do we know about their durability feats? Shinki can create Makai and it's inhabitants but what do we know about how much she can take a hit? Zero. Characters like Kaguya and Mokou are the only ones we know that have horrific durability (like human level, yet they're immortal and strong).



> In every single game they have some sort of goal or aim that the MCs are trying to stop, so if they have any intention of actually completing these goals they shouldn't do that. Unless you're saying that they're all just retarded.



Situations vary like the plot to EoSD (Embodiment of Scarlet Devil) was that Remilia created red mist to block out the sun, so she can go out easily (she's a vampire remember?) to like Imperishable Night where Gensokyo is locked into an eternal night. Again, their reason can range from mundane to somewhat serious but they're still causing mischief for fun (I can understand why). But the only legit serious situation I know was Utsuho going to nuke Gensokyo with a mini-sun.



> Utsuho believed she could just go outside and take Gensokyo.



Her method of doing so was extreme though.

EDIT:

To add on, only the main story is light hearted but the backstories and supplementary info still say that Yokai eat humans for food and stuff so you got people like Reimu and Marisa Yokai hunting.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 12, 2010)

Weather said:


> Yeah but they actually weren't that bad.
> 
> Remilia wanted to put Scarlet Mist to go outside in sunlight.



So why didn't she use her supposedly uber fate manipulation to stop them from stopping her?



> Yuyuko wanted to revive the Saigouji Ayakashi because she felt it was important (She didn't knew that her own body kept sealed the tree)



She's not that strong so irrelevant.



> Eirin was the one that planned the plot in IN and she didn't Knew that the Moon wouldn't find them in Gensokyo.



Um... so?



> Suika just wanted to party.



And she let them ruin her party.



> Kanako Just wanted to gather more faith and have Reimu's Shrine join the Moriya.



And she let them stop her



> Utsuho believed she could just go outside and take Gensokyo.



She's weak anyway so who cares



> Tenshi just wanted to have fun with the Youkai.



And she let them stop her


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## Watchman (Oct 12, 2010)

EM, it's just PIS. The games can't have the heroines losing, for obvious reasons.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 12, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Yeah, in power. What exactly do we know about their durability feats? Shinki can create Makai and it's inhabitants but what do we know about how much she can take a hit? Zero. Characters like Kaguya and Mokou are the only ones we know that have horrific durability (like human level, yet they're immortal and strong).



In that case, she's not nearly all she's cracked up to be.



> Situations vary like the plot to EoSD (Embodiment of Scarlet Devil) was that Remilia created red mist to block out the sun, so she can go out easily (she's a vampire remember?) to like Imperishable Night where Gensokyo is locked into an eternal night. Again, their reason can range from mundane to somewhat serious but they're still causing mischief for fun (I can understand why). But the only legit serious situation I know was Utsuho going to nuke Gensokyo with a mini-sun.



Doesn't change the fact that they had no reason to simply let others stop them. And the fact that the last one was even considered a thread kind of lends credence to the theory that the Hulk would stomp all over them, since shit like that is nothing to him.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 12, 2010)

Watchman said:


> EM, it's just PIS. The games can't have the heroines losing, for obvious reasons.



Or the enemies they fight are just not all they're cracked up to be.


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## Watchman (Oct 12, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Or the enemies they fight are just not all they're cracked up to be.



*shrugs* You already know my view on Touhou in the OBD - that whilst the hype's nice and all, it fails the OBD's feat-based criteria massively.

But the abilities the Touhou characters have are from canon statements by the game creator. It seems far more likely that PIS plays a large part in the games than "the creator's wrong about his own characters"


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## Endless Mike (Oct 12, 2010)

Watchman said:


> *shrugs* You already know my view on Touhou in the OBD - that whilst the hype's nice and all, it fails the OBD's feat-based criteria massively.
> 
> But the abilities the Touhou characters have are from canon statements by the game creator. It seems far more likely that PIS plays a large part in the games than "the creator's wrong about his own characters"



Well he thinks his work is decent, so we know he's wrong 

But seriously, I'm not saying they don't have these powers, at least in a form, just that the limits of these powers are far more than some people assume.


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## Weather (Oct 12, 2010)

> Doesn't change the fact that they had no reason to simply let others stop them. And the fact that the last one was even considered a thread kind of lends credence to the theory that the Hulk would stomp all over them, since shit like that is nothing to him.



Utsuho was never considered a serius threat except for Orin (because she knew she would be Pummeled if she went outside).



> Rin learned of her old friend Utsuho's newly acquired power, and of her plans to conquer the above ground. She got terrified at the thought of her friend's future, and the punishment her mistress would impart on her (even though Satori would actually never have, and it was just Rin's thinking on her side). She decided to drive the evil spirits to above ground to lure the youkai in and get them to help her, but instead a human appears before her. Upon seeing that human is unexpectedly strong, though, she asks her to help Utsuho


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 12, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> What does that actually mean? BTW I read a game script that said that Yukari was trying to breach the Gensokyo barrier but couldn't, or at least was having a difficult time doing so. That shuts down most of the wank for her people use.



It means she extended the night indefinitely. Whether the boundary manipulation manifested as control of the planet's rotation, some kind of selective time freeze, or a reality warp that made the laws of astronomy behave the way she wanted them to, she basically made it permanently night.

As far as the stuff with the netherworld goes, she weakened the boundary of life and death a little as a request. It thinned the border between the world of the living and the netherworld, basically, enough for the living and dead to cross between them when it would normally be impossible.

It's actually very heavily implied that Yukari _created_ the border that allows Gensokyo to exist, and she's never once had a problem going back and forth between Gensokyo and the outside world. The only time a limitation to her powers has been mentioned is in regards to transporting herself to the far side of the moon, and what that means for her specifically is sketchy at best since she does exactly that later in the manga and Toyohime has a similar ability which might allow her to counter Yukari's attempted incursions.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 12, 2010)

Weather said:


> Utsuho was never considered a serius threat except for Orin (because she knew she would be Pummeled if she went outside).



The character with the "ability to carry off corpses" - this is a serious threat?

And this Satori's ability is to read minds. That's it. Sorry, I am not seeing anything impressive here.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 12, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> It means she extended the night indefinitely. Whether the boundary manipulation manifested as control of the planet's rotation, some kind of selective time freeze, or a reality warp that made the laws of astronomy behave the way she wanted them to, she basically made it permanently night.



....How would that stop the Hulk?



> As far as the stuff with the netherworld goes, she weakened the boundary of life and death a little as a request. It thinned the border between the world of the living and the netherworld, basically, enough for the living and dead to cross between them when it would normally be impossible.
> 
> It's actually very heavily implied that Yukari _created_ the border that allows Gensokyo to exist, and she's never once had a problem going back and forth between Gensokyo and the outside world. The only time a limitation to her powers has been mentioned is in regards to transporting herself to the far side of the moon, and what that means for her specifically is sketchy at best since she does exactly that later in the manga and Toyohime has a similar ability which might allow her to counter Yukari's attempted incursions.







> Yukari: That glorious barrier is weakening along the northeast.
> 
> If left alone, it might wear out completely.
> 
> ...



Emphasis mine.


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## Weather (Oct 12, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> The character with the "ability to carry off corpses" - this is a serious threat?
> 
> And this Satori's ability is to read minds. That's it. Sorry, I am not seeing anything impressive here.



Emm no no. Orin (the one who carries corpses) Wanted to Stop Utsuho because she knew that Utsuho (the one who wanted to conquer Gensokyo) Wouldn't have a Chance. And because she believed that Satori (their master as Utsuho and Orin are Satori's pets) would Punish Utsuho. So she released the Underground Spirits to make a strong Youkai come to stop Utsuho. (and Reimu just went forced by Yukari)


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 12, 2010)

> In that case, she's not nearly all she's cracked up to be.



Play the actual games, read all the supplementary info available so you're on top of things without being let on. (Food for thought next time)

I would love to know about the endings to the games but 

A) The games are hard as fuck

B ) There's no video of them on youtube due to ZUN's anti-Spoiler wish to the fans



> Doesn't change the fact that they had no reason to simply let others stop them. And the fact that the last one was even considered a thread kind of lends credence to the theory that the Hulk would stomp all over them, since shit like that is nothing to him.



PIS + CIS = Reimu & Marisa can curbstomp characters far beyond their own power (wouldn't be the first time a story has ever done this before, so it's nothing shocking or new)

Seriously, even if the characters are featless by OBD standards, those powers they have are still canon. Do you honestly think those two have a bats chance out of hell of winning if one day the Yokai just say fuck it? 3 guesses if they can win and one of those answers is wrong.

Besides, for this thread Hulk has better feats going for him anyway. Most of Touhou has hype going for them but Hulk can pummel 9/10 of them regardless off hype. The god tier characters via hype are a different story. But feats take place here.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 12, 2010)

Weather said:


> Emm no no. Orin (the one who carries corpses) Wanted to Stop Utsuho because she knew that Utsuho (the one who wanted to conquer Gensokyo) Wouldn't have a Chance. And because she believed that Satori (their master as Utsuho and Orin are Satori's pets) would Punish Utsuho. So she released the Underground Spirits to make a strong Youkai come to stop Utsuho. (and Reimu just went forced by Yukari)



It said it was because Satori would punish her, but I'm not seeing anything impressive about Satori at all.



basch71 said:


> Play the actual games, read all the supplementary info available so you're on top of things without being let on. (Food for thought next time)
> 
> I would love to know about the endings to the games but
> 
> ...



So, in other words, you have no evidence, and you are unable to present any evidence.



> PIS + CIS = Reimu & Marisa can curbstomp characters far beyond their own power (wouldn't be the first time a story has ever done this before, so it's nothing shocking or new)



The thing is, there is nothing proving those characters are far beyond their own power, other than unsubstantiated statements.



> Seriously, even if the characters are featless by OBD standards, those powers they have are still canon. Do you honestly think those two have a bats chance out of hell of winning if one day the Yokai just say fuck it? 3 guesses if they can win and one of those answers is wrong.



Statements of powers don't mean anything if there are no feats or precedent to back them up. Take Rikuduo Sennin. According to statements, he would be at least low Herald level, but those statements are all considered doubtful or not acceptable in the OBD because there are no feats to back them up from him or anyone else in the Narutoverse who has ever done anything remotely on that level.


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## Weather (Oct 13, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> ....How would that stop the Hulk?
> 
> 
> 
> ...






> Reimu
> 全然、仕事してないし
> あんた、一体何処に住んでるのよ
> So all in all, you did exactly nothing.
> ...



I believe she correct herself here

and



> me this far, and were able to cross over from the human side.
> Reimu
> いいから、その境界も引き直して
> もらうわ
> ...



Also...


> 博麗大結界の時の龍
> The Dragon at the Creation of the Great Hakurei Barrier
> 最後に、龍が現れたのは博麗大結界を張った時の事である。
> The last time the dragon appeared in Gensokyo was when the Great Hakurei Barrier was created.
> ...



Aparently the Dragon had to do with the creation of the Hakurei Border And is clearly Stated that the Dragon is Gensokyo's God of creation and Dragon>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Gensokyo.


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## Orochibuto (Oct 13, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Rare Akuma



Rare Akuma indeed


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## Endless Mike (Oct 13, 2010)

Weather said:


> I believe she correct herself here



Just the fact that she had apparently succeeded doesn't change the fact that she was having trouble doing so, instead of being able to do it effortlessly as wankers would have you believe.



> and



She implies there are a lot of barriers. Not seeing the point.



> Also...
> 
> 
> Aparently the Dragon had to do with the creation of the Hakurei Border And is clearly Stated that the Dragon is Gensokyo's God of creation and Dragon>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Gensokyo.



Eldritch Sukima said Yukari created it.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 13, 2010)

> So, in other words, you have no evidence, and you are unable to present any evidence.



Pretty much other than quotes and stuff. But anyway, I'm not for this debate and on nobody's side, just clearing things up.



> The thing is, there is nothing proving those characters are far beyond their own power, other than unsubstantiated statements.



In game via story if it's being followed would be understandable. But there's virtually nothing by OBD standards. Cuz someone like Yukari for example can completely destroy Reimu if she was serious and not restricted. But again, there's nothing that can prove that by OBD standards.



> Eldritch Sukima said Yukari created it.



Yukari has nothing to do with creation. Only being a very strong Yokai and the only one that can most likely fuck with Gensokyo's barrier.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 13, 2010)

As for Utsuho, she was never really a threat, despite her genocidal intentions to turn the Earth into molten slag. Even ignoring the fact that she's too stupid to be a threat to the world at large, if Yukari was actually concerned about the danger she posed she would gone down there herself to take care of it instead of sending Reimu off like an errand girl while she relaxed and helped herself to Reimu's tea.



Endless Mike said:


> ....How would that stop the Hulk?



It wouldn't, I'm just elaborating on what it meant.



> Emphasis mine.



I would take that with a grain of salt, myself. She also says she can't sleep with a dangerous human like Reimu running around, but immediately goes back to sleep after the fight. Yukari cares a great deal about Gensokyo and would never do something that would endanger it, which tampering with the Hakurei Border certainly falls under. Odds are she was just messing with Reimu to get her riled up, as there is no mention of it ever again and no reason or motivation for her to be doing it.


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## Orochibuto (Oct 13, 2010)

Watchman said:


> *shrugs* You already know my view on Touhou in the OBD - that whilst the hype's nice and all, it fails the OBD's feat-based criteria massively.
> 
> But the abilities the Touhou characters have are from canon statements by the game creator. It seems far more likely that PIS plays a large part in the games than "the creator's wrong about his own characters"



With this I agree, it is most likel PIS. PIS is always present in videogames as the protagonist cant lose.

One of the most prominent forms of PIS was Kingdom Hearts where Maleficent waits to fight Sora until he is strong enough to fight his way to Hollow Bastion instead of just finishing him up when she appeared at traverse town to seduce Riku and even saw him outside the house window, despite that Maleficent would had raped Sora had she challenged him as soon as he left the house where FF chars were housing.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 13, 2010)

Orochibuto said:


> With this I agree, it is most likel PIS. PIS is always present in videogames as the protagonist cant lose.
> 
> One of the most prominent forms of PIS was Kingdom Hearts where Maleficent waits to fight Sora until he is strong enough to fight his way to Hollow Bastion instead of just finishing him up when she appeared at traverse town to seduce Riku and even saw him outside the house window, despite that Maleficent would had raped Sora had she challenged him as soon as he left the house where FF chars were housing.



Sora vs Genie Jafar


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## Weather (Oct 13, 2010)

> The thing is, there is nothing proving those characters are far beyond their own power, other than unsubstantiated statements.



It is only because you Only beat them 1 time (PIS)

Reimu and Yukari fought a 2 time in SRW Yukari mopped the floor with her.
Tenshi Beat almost all the SRW cast (except Guess? Yukari)
Suika Beat Sakuya, Alice, Marisa, Youmu, Remilia and Reimu in a Row in IaMP.

And etc.

The Spellcard sistem guarantees a fair equal fight so who win or loses doesn't matter much.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 13, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Yukari has nothing to do with creation. Only being a very strong Yokai and the only one that can most likely fuck with Gensokyo's barrier.



Her PMiSS entry is full of quotes to the contrary.



> That also means that as long as the youkai of boundaries exists, she can create or destroy a place like Gensokyo whenever she desires.





> It can be argued that the fact that a youkai of boundaries exists in Gensokyo, a land surrounded by an enormous boundary, implies that she must have some extremely significant connection to the origin of Gensokyo.





> It is said that this youkai was one of those who suggested the creation of the Great Barrier and created what is now Gensokyo.





> Until then Gensokyo was merely an isolated mountain place, but she planned to create the boundary between illusion and reality around Gensokyo, thus logically creating a new world.


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## Orochibuto (Oct 13, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Sora vs Genie Jafar



Another example indeed, Jafar using physicals attacks instead of singing Sora "You Re Only Second Rate" and reality warp him.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 13, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Her PMiSS entry is full of quotes to the contrary.



That's referring to that she can tear the barrier like paper since her power over boundaries is so broken, not actual creation power.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 13, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> As for Utsuho, she was never really a threat, despite her genocidal intentions to turn the Earth into molten slag. Even ignoring the fact that she's too stupid to be a threat to the world at large, if Yukari was actually concerned about the danger she posed she would gone down there herself to take care of it instead of sending Reimu off like an errand girl while she relaxed and helped herself to Reimu's tea.



Surely if it was so easy for her, she had no reason to bother finding and sending Reimu, especially since Reimu might fail.



> I would take that with a grain of salt, myself. She also says she can't sleep with a dangerous human like Reimu running around, but immediately goes back to sleep after the fight. Yukari cares a great deal about Gensokyo and would never do something that would endanger it, which tampering with the Hakurei Border certainly falls under. Odds are she was just messing with Reimu to get her riled up, as there is no mention of it ever again and no reason or motivation for her to be doing it.



So character statements are only viable when your side quotes them, hmm? I guess all of the other statements by her are equally worthless, then.



Orochibuto said:


> With this I agree, it is most likel PIS. PIS is always present in videogames as the protagonist cant lose.



Why are there bad endings, then?



Weather said:


> It is only because you Only beat them 1 time (PIS)
> 
> Reimu and Yukari fought a 2 time in SRW Yukari mopped the floor with her.
> Tenshi Beat almost all the SRW cast (except Guess? Yukari)
> ...



And none of them ever just go "fuck this shit, I'm going to kick your ass and there's nothing you can do about it?"



Eldritch Sukima said:


> Her PMiSS entry is full of quotes to the contrary.



Well there you have it - ZUN's own words contradict each other. Therefore, you can't take anything he says to be completely reliable. There goes most of your arguments.


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## Weather (Oct 13, 2010)

> That also means that as long as the youkai of boundaries exists, she can create or destroy a place like Gensokyo whenever she desires.
> Quote:
> It can be argued that the fact that a youkai of boundaries exists in Gensokyo, a land surrounded by an enormous boundary, implies that she must have some extremely significant connection to the origin of Gensokyo.
> Quote:
> ...



The Dragon also had something to do, and also the Hakurei's as the Shrine was Stablished in 1884-1885.

Sorry here is the complete one



> Hakurei Border (Hakurei Dai-Kekkai, lit. Hakurei Great Border, 博麗大結界) is the border between Gensokyo and the outside world. This was created in Meiji 17 (AD 1884), the creation of which marks year 0 on Gensokyo's Timeline. It's often refered to as the "Border," "Hakurei Barrier," "Great Boundary," etc. It is known that the Hakurei Shrine is located on the border and believed that Yukari Yakumo lives somewhere along the border as well (though not near the shrine).
> It is the strongest boundary in all of Gensokyo, with Youkai reinforcing the original work done by humans in 1884. Yuyuko has speculated that not even Yukari could make a boundary of this level (from scratch, on her own). Yet it is not completely impenetrable. Examples of this include various individual people (Reisen, Chiyuri, Yumemi, Maribel, Sanae, Kanako, Suwako, and many others) that have arrived through it as well as entire locations (Moriya Shrine, Poltergeist Mansion, Scarlet Devil Mansion) that have been transported through the barrier.
> The Hakurei Shrine is supposed to be the one gate through the boundary - this Shinto shrine exists on both sides of the border. Thus a lot of random items slip through and are found at the Shrine. Furthermore, people sometimes wander through the boundary and are either turned back with an illusion or they insist upon staying (in which case they're put in the Human Village for safety). However, Youkai teams sometimes go out to gather humans for cooking (a delicacy to them), hiding their activities with magic (lost people, accidents, etc). It's unlikely that Reimu (effectively the guardian of the gate) would endorse such actions so presumably Youkai know of ways to make a 'hole' in the border elsewhere - they originally helped reinforce it after all. Possibly all those 'border penetrations' that these cooking teams require are organized by Yukari, but this may not be necessary considering how many people and locations have come across the border on their own without her help.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 13, 2010)

Ah, more evidence. Yukari isn't capable of creating a barrier that separates a dimensional small enough to fit in Japan, and which can be easily penetrated by many characters who are not incredibly powerful. Another nail in the coffin of her supposed strength.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Oct 13, 2010)

saint seiya is a fighting game. in saint seiya's game there's hades. hades rapes any hulk incarnation 

seriously, maybe akuma (the one who splitted an island with one punch) could be a match for the standard hulk


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## Orochibuto (Oct 13, 2010)

I dont know about games Reimu but if you give her Mugen feats she rapes 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7w7MVcsMPA[/YOUTUBE]


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 13, 2010)

> Why are there bad endings, then?



Bad Endings

Beat the game with continues.

Good endings

Beat the game with no continues.



> And none of them ever just go "fuck this shit, I'm going to kick your ass and there's nothing you can do about it?"



It's a lighthearted series man. Hell no, unless it's a doujin game or something.



> Well there you have it - ZUN's own words contradict each other. Therefore, you can't take anything he says to be completely reliable. There goes most of your arguments.



Actually it's not ZUN narrating PMiSS since it's told by the point of view of a random human who knows very little on their relationships and stuff so it's not a reliable source like the Grimoire of Marisa where it's told from her point of view and knows what's up.



> Ah, more evidence. Yukari isn't capable of creating a barrier that separates a dimensional small enough to fit in Japan, and which can be easily penetrated by many characters who are not incredibly powerful. Another nail in the coffin of her supposed strength.



Her power is more about fucking with the various boundaries of reality, not actual creation. And she's the ONLY one the can break the barrier since it's within her power. Everyone else, barrier >>> them.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 13, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Bad Endings
> 
> Beat the game with continues.
> 
> ...



The point is he stated the heroes always have to win.



> It's a lighthearted series man. Hell no, unless it's a doujin game or something.



Then I must conclude that they are all retarded.



> Actually it's not ZUN narrating PMiSS since it's told by the point of view of a random human who knows very little on their relationships and stuff so it's not a reliable source like the Grimoire of Marisa where it's told from her point of view and knows what's up.



So then you admit the evidence is unreliable.


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## Weather (Oct 13, 2010)

> Surely if it was so easy for her, she had no reason to bother finding and sending Reimu, especially since Reimu might fail.



Because she is know for being pretty much Lazy (She sleeps all day and hibernates all winter) so she just was talking to Reimu through the Jin-Jang orbs



> Why are there bad endings, then?



Because you use continues.



> And none of them ever just go "fuck this shit, I'm going to kick your ass and there's nothing you can do about it?"



Yukari did that for Tenshi.
Tenshi also did that in the end of SRW fucking pretty much everyone except Yukari.
Suika Pummeled Many of IaMP in a row.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 13, 2010)

Weather said:


> Because she is know for being pretty much Lazy (She sleeps all day and hibernates all winter) so she just was talking to Reimu through the Jin-Jang orbs



If I can do something effortlessly with a thought, it's harder to ask someone else to do it for me.



> Because you use continues.





The point was, if the heroes always have to win, why do such endings even exist?



> Yukari did that for Tenshi.
> Tenshi also did that in the end of SRW



I'm sorry, every time I see this abbreviation I think "Super Robot Wars" and then laugh because of the context.



> fucking pretty much everyone except Yukari.
> Suika Pummeled Many of IaMP in a row.



But then they let themselves get defeated....


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## Weather (Oct 13, 2010)

> But then they let themselves get defeated....



Not really Tenshi says so herself she was holding back the entire time because as a Celestial she couldn't just fight at full against mere Youkai.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 13, 2010)

> The point is he stated the heroes always have to win.



Yeah, it's a game where heroes >>> antagonists and they become friends in the end anyway. Play the games man or look it up more in depth. This is why.



> Then I must conclude that they are all retarded.



Meh, what can you do? 



> So then you admit the evidence is unreliable.



Yes b/c I actually read the thing and can say what things are wrong and stuff. Other than it drops info about a character from a different perspective, storywise.



> The point was, if the heroes always have to win, why do such endings even exist?



Gameplay reasons, it's so the player can try harder next time.


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## Weather (Oct 13, 2010)

> If I can do something effortlessly with a thought, it's harder to ask someone else to do it for me.



Actually here is why she send Reimu.



> Since the underground youkai have built up a society separate from that of the youkai above ground, she doesn't seem to want to interfere. The sudden appearance of the evil spirits puzzled her. She didn't want it to turn into some major event, so she sent Reimu, who had relatively little influence on things, to investigate.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 13, 2010)

Weather said:


> Not really Tenshi says so herself she was holding back the entire time because as a Celestial she couldn't just fight at full against mere Youkai.



Unless she has feats when she's not holding back, then that means nothing.



basch71 said:


> Yeah, it's a game where heroes >>> antagonists and they become friends in the end anyway. Play the games man or look it up more in depth. This is why.



You can't claim PIS unless you have actual examples that contradict it. Let me try to explain this.

Scenario 1: Character A takes a planetbuster and survives. Character A is then hurt by something much less than a planetbuster. Claiming PIS for the second event is possible (not necessarily true, it depends on the circumstances, but you can make the argument)

Scenario 2: Character A is stated to be able to tank a planetbuster, but has no feats of doing so. Character A is then hurt by something much less than a planetbuster. You can't claim PIS here, because you have no contradictory example, and feats override statements.

Get it?


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## Endless Mike (Oct 13, 2010)

Weather said:


> Actually here is why she send Reimu.



That still doesn't explain it, as if she's anywhere as powerful as wankers say she is, she could have resolved the whole thing without causing any trouble.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 13, 2010)

basch71 said:


> That's referring to that she can tear the barrier like paper since her power over boundaries is so broken, not actual creation power.



It implies no less than three times that she's at least partially responsible for creating the boundary. It also states she can create another Gensokyo if she wants, which would involve creating another boundary as well.



Endless Mike said:


> Surely if it was so easy for her, she had no reason to bother finding and sending Reimu, especially since Reimu might fail.



You underestimate the true extents of Yukari's laziness. If Reimu failed she'd just send Ran or Marisa down instead. Yukari is a scheming manipulator by nature. She doesn't intervene unless she needs to, and obviously she didn't need to with Okuu, or she would have simply telefragged her right off the bat. Utsuho had not grown into a threat worthy of her personal intervention at that point.

It's stated that there's no defense against her boundary manipulation, and it's shown that her effective range reached all the way to the subterranean sun. If she wanted Okuu dead, she would have been dead. Obviously she didn't feel the need to go that far yet.



Endless Mike said:


> So character statements are only viable when your side quotes them, hmm? I guess all of the other statements by her are equally worthless, then.



The statement is questionable for a number of reasons, which I've already covered. Yukari had no reason to be messing with the boundary, she has a known history of toying with people, and at least two profiles confirm that she's able to destroy and create such boundaries whenever she pleases. Compared to that, tearing a hole in it is nothing. Unless you think Yukari's word is worth more than ZUN's, it's a moot point.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 13, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> You underestimate the true extents of Yukari's laziness. If Reimu failed she'd just send Ran or Marisa down instead. Yukari is a scheming manipulator by nature. She doesn't intervene unless she needs to, and obviously she didn't need to with Okuu, or she would have simply telefragged her right off the bat. Utsuho had not grown into a threat worthy of her personal intervention at that point.
> 
> It's stated that there's no defense against her boundary manipulation, and it's shown that her effective range reached all the way to the subterranean sun. If she wanted Okuu dead, she would have been dead. Obviously she didn't feel the need to go that far yet.



So either it takes her effort to do this that she doesn't want to expend, so sending someone else would be easier, or she's just stupid.



> The statement is questionable for a number of reasons, which I've already covered. Yukari had no reason to be messing with the boundary, she has a known history of toying with people, and at least two profiles confirm that she's able to destroy and create such boundaries whenever she pleases. Compared to that, tearing a hole in it is nothing. Unless you think Yukari's word is worth more than ZUN's, it's a moot point.



I think actual events are worth more than the author's claims. And events prove you wrong.


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## Weather (Oct 13, 2010)

> Unless she has feats when she's not holding back, then that means nothing.



Pummeling almost all the SRW cast doesn't count?



> That still doesn't explain it, as if she's anywhere as powerful as wankers say she is, she could have resolved the whole thing without causing any trouble.



She was Puzzled about the Underground Spirits raising up. And she couldn'd just go underground to see for herself as it would cause trouble with the Youkai Underground. So she sent Reimu to do ir for her.


Also I don't really care where you put Touhou in the Battledome (Personally I prefer It wouldn't participate in Vs) as is a complete mess to make threads with it. And would resort to Discussions like these and I don't argue it would beat Hulk or not. I just want to help clear things.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 13, 2010)

> You can't claim PIS unless you have actual examples that contradict it. Let me try to explain this.
> 
> Scenario 1: Character A takes a planetbuster and survives. Character A is then hurt by something much less than a planetbuster. Claiming PIS for the second event is possible (not necessarily true, it depends on the circumstances, but you can make the argument)
> 
> ...





Mike, I already said the series runs on hype powerwise and have next to zero feats to back them up. And they already have stapled CIS & PIS either via the Spell Card system and limits power, characters hold back for fun or because their own quirks, and for gameplay reasons, it's a shmup. A doujin shump series at that.

There's not much to go by, not much that can prove actual statements sinces it's limited by the fact it's a shooter game and very little that's given are either supplementary material, manga that focus on the characters than an actual battle manga, and a soon to be non-canon anime.

There's not much to say other than what's already given but nothing that can make a legit match.

I can tell you who is strong for story reasons but nothing via feats.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 13, 2010)

Weather said:


> Pummeling almost all the SRW cast doesn't count?



Not unless they have feats, too.



> She was Puzzled about the Underground Spirits raising up. And she couldn'd just go underground to see for herself as it would cause trouble with the Youkai Underground. So she sent Reimu to do ir for her.



Implying said youkai were powerful enough to trouble her. Which is contradicted by the material posted earlier.



> Also I don't really care where you put Touhou in the Battledome (Personally I prefer It wouldn't participate in Vs) as is a complete mess to make threads with it. And would resort to Discussions like these.



I just like the idea of Hulk going WWH on their asses. Also I like the idea of the Daleks invading Gensokyo. That would be amusing.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 13, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> So either it takes her effort to do this that she doesn't want to expend, so sending someone else would be easier, or she's just stupid.



Or she doesn't want to deal with it herself since sending Reimu is more amusing. It's pretty obvious that she's not taking the situation seriously.



> I think actual events are worth more than the author's claims. And events prove you wrong.



Which ones? I remind you that this is only mentioned by Yukari. It's never stated or shown anywhere that she actually made any such rip in the boundary. I find that meaningful since the boundary she actually did mess with has been brought up multiple times since PCB.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 13, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Mike, I said the series runs on hype powerwise and have next to zero feats to back them up.



Then all of that hype is worthless. Don't like it? Tough shit, that's just the way it works.



> And they already have stapled CIS & PIS either via the Spell Card system and limits power, characters hold back for fun or because their own quirks, and for gameplay reasons, it's a shmup. A doujin shump series at that.
> 
> There's not much to go by, not much that can prove actual statements sinces it's limited by the fact it's a shooter game and very little that's given are either supplementary material, manga that focus on the characters than an actual battle manga, and a soon to be non-canon anime.



Poor excuse, I can name dozens of feats from my favorite shooter game Tyrian. Just put the feats into the story narration, it's simple.


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## Orochibuto (Oct 13, 2010)

I think there should be a limit to the "only feats" rule. While it is great because it prevents nosense like Uchihatards claiming in the Library "Kishi states Yata Mirror can block all attacks and Totsuka sword can seal all it touch them so Susanoo can defeat Galactus and Yata Mirror can rapel an universal busting attack" to be taken in count in the battledome, yes they actually said it  

Link removed

When it is clear the author is giving valid info and it is solid enough to be used while respecting the level of what th author reasonably things the character can or cant do I dont see why it should be denied. A perfect example is Thanato's statement that Hades can end the universe with a thought, while it wasnt backed up by Hades's feats it should be taken in count as Apollo a lesser deity did the feat.


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## Weather (Oct 13, 2010)

> Implying said youkai were powerful enough to trouble her. Which is contradicted by the material posted earlier.



The thing we don't Know Shit of the Underground Youkai. Only Utsuho has something close to Feats. Yuugi is supossed to be a High Tier but the Nature of her ability is a complete Mistery ash she only fought Reimu while drinking sake without spilling one fucking drop.



> I just like the idea of Hulk going WWH on their asses. Also I like the idea of the Daleks invading Gensokyo. That would be amusing.



Have fun yourself then.


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## Weather (Oct 13, 2010)

> Poor excuse, I can name dozens of feats from my favorite shooter game Tyrian. Just put the feats into the story narration, it's simple.



And that's matter how...? 
Apples apples, Oranges Oranges.

Two diferent things


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 13, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Also I like the idea of the Daleks invading Gensokyo. That would be amusing.



Not even Yukari can outhax the Whoniverse. That would bring new meaning to the term youkai extermination.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 13, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Or she doesn't want to deal with it herself since sending Reimu is more amusing. It's pretty obvious that she's not taking the situation seriously.



Is that why she said she tried to make it sure she didn't slack off? And she kept in communication with her the whole time, which doesn't fit her lazy and sleep loving personality. She also says the underground youkai have "fearsome" powers. Implying she fears them.

Then there's this part:



> (I promised not to let any youkai from above down here.)
> 
> (And then you all built a great city underground.)
> 
> ...



Why would she bother if she could stop them easily?



> Which ones? I remind you that this is only mentioned by Yukari. It's never stated or shown anywhere that she actually made any such rip in the boundary. I find that meaningful since the boundary she actually did mess with has been brought up multiple times since PCB.



I mean the fact that she never actually does any of the things people claim she can.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 13, 2010)

> Then all of that hype is worthless. Don't like it? Tough shit, that's just the way it works.



Whoa now, don't get ahead of yourself. I'm just clearing things up, I not getting mad about anything.



> Poor excuse, I can name dozens of feats from my favorite shooter game Tyrian. Just put the feats into the story narration, it's simple.



I'm sure you can, but this series on the other hand doesn't have quantifiable luxury here anyway and nobody here is gonna give a flying 2 fucks any how. No skin off my nose.

To make a long story short

Other than the soon to be non-canon anime since we'll get on screen feats or what not, for the actual game series, there shouldn't be any threads made for a vs match on this game since a lack of quantifiable feats unless

A) you don't know what you're talking about
B ) you wanna cause a shitstorm



> I just like the idea of Hulk going WWH on their asses. Also I like the idea of the Daleks invading Gensokyo. That would be amusing.



Saint Seiya vs Chachamaru and Aigis Mike


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## Endless Mike (Oct 13, 2010)

Orochibuto said:


> I think there should be a limit to the "only feats" rule. While it is great because it prevents nosense like Uchihatards claiming in the Library "Kishi states Yata Mirror can block all attacks and Totsuka sword can seal all it touch them so Susanoo can defeat Galactus and Yata Mirror can rapel an universal busting attack" to be taken in count in the battledome, yes they actually said it
> 
> Link removed
> 
> When it is clear the author is giving valid info and it is solid enough to be used while respecting the level of what th author reasonably things the character can or cant do I dont see why it should be denied. A perfect example is Thanato's statement that Hades can end the universe with a thought, while it wasnt backed up by Hades's feats it should be taken in count as Apollo a lesser deity did the feat.



Exactly. That's supported not only by Apollo, but also by Hades' creation of the Super Dimension. The thing is, no such precedent exists in Touhou. If someone says that Touhou character X is a universe buster or whatever, but neither that character nor any other characters on the same level have any universal feats, there's no reason to take it seriously, especially if there are incidents indicating that character to not be that powerful.



Weather said:


> The thing we don't Know Shit of the Underground Youkai. Only Utsuho has something close to Feats. Yuugi is supossed to be a High Tier but the Nature of her ability is a complete Mistery ash she only fought Reimu while drinking sake without spilling one fucking drop.



The ability to never spill your drink. I believe that was once mentioned in an episode of Dexter's Laboratory as an example of a particularly lame and useless power.



Weather said:


> And that's matter how...?
> Apples apples, Oranges Oranges.
> 
> Two diferent things



You were claiming that it can't have feats due to being a shooter game, I pointed out that that was not true.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 13, 2010)

basch71 said:


> I'm sure you can, but this series on the other hand doesn't have quantifiable luxury here anyway and nobody here is gonna give a flying 2 fucks any how. No skin off my nose.
> 
> To make a long story short
> 
> ...



Hey, I wasn't the one who brought it up in this thread.



> Saint Seiya vs Chachamaru and Aigis Mike



I don't claim they're so amazingly powerful and can beat cosmic beings and all of that stuff.


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## Weather (Oct 13, 2010)

> The ability to never spill your drink. I believe that was once mentioned in an episode of Dexter's Laboratory as an example of a particularly lame and useless power.



Her ability is the control of the Supernatural. And that's it. we don't know Anything more from her.



> You were claiming that it can't have feats due to being a shooter game, I pointed out that that was not true.



Wrong person I never said that I just answered.

Like I say: One game and another game, Two diferent things.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 13, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Hey, I wasn't the one who brought it up in this thread.



I know, I'm just saying.



> I don't claim they're so amazingly powerful and can beat cosmic beings and all of that stuff.



I know, but certain people here would ride on that idea.


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## Weather (Oct 13, 2010)

Can we just leave it here? I think we just took a very large detour of the Original thread.

My Conclusion: Don't use Touhou in threads.

That's it I'm out. Pleasure to debate againt's an OBD high tier.


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## Watchman (Oct 13, 2010)

To be fair, guys, it wasn't EM who brought up Touhou in this thread.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 13, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> And she kept in communication with her the whole time, which doesn't fit her lazy and sleep loving personality.



She went along with Reimu in person during Imperishable Night, but it was clear through the nonstop banter and the way she made light of every single character they came across that she was just goofing off.



> She also says the underground youkai have "fearsome" powers. Implying she fears them.



She calls Reimu dangerous despite canonically being able to effortlessly crush her whenever she wants.



> Why would she bother if she could stop them easily?



Because stopping them is work and she's allergic to work. That's why she has Ran. To take care of all the chores she should be doing but doesn't feel like doing. Ran is weaker than her in every area and ZUN himself has stated that the strain that would normally be produced by a power as potent as boundary manipulation doesn't apply to her, so her choice of lifestyle is clearly not because she's lacking in power.



> I mean the fact that she never actually does any of the things people claim she can.



Her power is boundary manipulation. We've already gotten an idea of how it works and seen her use it multiple times. The rest is just figuring out which boundaries would do what when tweaked in certain ways. I suspect the reason ZUN doesn't have her taking center stage very often is precisely because she's too broken to make things interesting.


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## Tranquil Fury (Oct 13, 2010)

HAHAHA oh god if you're going to mention H4X abilities make sure the character you're using them against has'nt resisted something comparable on an equal or greater scale. There's no feat I can think of to mention since all the best ones have been posted. 

Inb4Red


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## Endless Mike (Oct 13, 2010)

Weather said:


> Can we just leave it here? I think we just took a very large detour of the Original thread.
> 
> My Conclusion: Don't use Touhou in threads.
> 
> That's it I'm out. Pleasure to debate againt's an OBD high tier.



Thanks, I guess.



Eldritch Sukima said:


> She went along with Reimu in person during Imperishable Night, but it was clear through the nonstop banter and the way she made light of every single character they came across that she was just goofing off.



Yet she would rather have just slept in.



> She calls Reimu dangerous despite canonically being able to effortlessly crush her whenever she wants.



Dangerous to the others she fought in that game.



> Because stopping them is work and she's allergic to work. That's why she has Ran. To take care of all the chores she should be doing but doesn't feel like doing. Ran is weaker than her in every area and ZUN himself has stated that the strain that would normally be produced by a power as potent as boundary manipulation doesn't apply to her, so her choice of lifestyle is clearly not because she's lacking in power.



Work implies effort. If she would need to exert effort to do these things, she's not all she's cracked up to be.



> Her power is boundary manipulation. We've already gotten an idea of how it works and seen her use it multiple times. The rest is just figuring out which boundaries would do what when tweaked in certain ways. I suspect the reason ZUN doesn't have her taking center stage very often is precisely because she's too broken to make things interesting.



She can only be considered broken she has demonstrated it. She has demonstrated practically nothing, so as far as the OBD is concerned, she can't do things way beyond what she has shown the ability to do.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 13, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Yet she would rather have just slept in.



No way to say for sure. It's specifically stated that she doesn't think like a human and she's shown to enjoy being active at least some of the time. In IaMP she did nothing but steal everyone's booze and drop vague hints as to who was really behind it. She had no reason to be there given that Suika was no threat to anything except alcohol supplies, but she decided to drop by anyway.



Endless Mike said:


> Dangerous to the others she fought in that game.



Not really, she wouldn't lose sleep over small fry being picked on by Reimu. Yuyuko was out of Reimu's league, and if she had decided to just break the rules as you suggested Reimu would have been dead before their conversation was over. Ran is... actually stated to be more than a match for Reimu in SSiB, and Chen is no slouch if she serves as the EX mid boss. Those are the only people Yukari cares about in PCB.



Endless Mike said:


> Work implies effort. If she would need to exert effort to do these things, she's not all she's cracked up to be.



Why exert a small amount of effort when you can exert none at all and get the same results? We've seen Yukari manipulate boundaries multiple times. It's trivial, considering she manipulates a sleepwalking related boundary as a simple hobby, and not something that visibly taxes her. She even hints at potentially unlimited stamina when chatting with Eirin.



> She can only be considered broken she has demonstrated it. She has demonstrated practically nothing, so as far as the OBD is concerned, she can't do things way beyond what she has shown the ability to do.



She's shown making fairly large scale alterations to reality. It's never stated just how large the netherworld is, but since there's only one it has to account for a good amount of the entire planet's deceased (If not the entire universe). Controlling it's boundary could be a continental/planetary feat or beyond. Same with freezing the night, depending on how it was physically done. Her boundary of truth and lie feat is difficult to quantify, but apparently it was big enough to drop a whole army on the moon. What makes her broken is that ZUN's set her power up to be capable of manipulating basically anything associated with boundaries, which should leave her capable of tweaking any aspect of reality she wants.

But I can certainly respect a healthy amount of skepticism, especially since ZUN seems hell bent on making the Moon the most dominant force in Touhou. I'll definitely concede that she could be much weaker than I see her, but there's no damning evidence either way so we'll just have to wait and see.

And with that, I'm out. I've derailed this thread more than enough for one day, though it did result in some refreshing debate and I hope we can do it again some time, albeit over a different subject.


----------



## hammer (Oct 13, 2010)

1 2 3 rider kick


----------



## Glued (Oct 13, 2010)

Hey Endless Mike, do you have scans of Hulk catching FTL opponents?


----------



## hammer (Oct 13, 2010)

^would zombie hulk eating SS count


----------



## willyvereb (Oct 13, 2010)

Well, he jumped on the Silver Surfer but well...Silver Surfer gets that a lot.
I don't remember Hulk catching anyone else. And anyways, it's not raged Hulk but the base. Golden rule to defeat Hulk one needs to knock him out fast and be aware of his jobber aura.


----------



## hammer (Oct 13, 2010)

knocking him out makes him madder


----------



## Rene (Oct 13, 2010)

I honestly never knew Hulk was that powerful. 

Seems like radiation poisoning and a lot of rage can get you quite far in life.


----------



## hammer (Oct 13, 2010)

kamen rider fighting game

1 2 3 rider kick


----------



## Glued (Oct 13, 2010)

Rene said:


> I honestly never knew Hulk was that powerful.
> 
> Seems like radiation poisoning and a lot of rage can get you quite far in life.



Plus a super soldier serum. 

Also, Bruce's father believed that he himself had a "monster gene."

Don't know how much truth there is in it.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Oct 13, 2010)

Hulk fights with Sentry, Thor, Juggernaut etc so he's used to fighting characters with lightspeed movement or reactions or both.


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 13, 2010)

Hasn't he beaten down Gladiator at least once, too?


----------



## Cygnus45 (Oct 13, 2010)

Lightspeed Hulk...? I'll believe it when I see it.

Seems like nothing more than "Massively hypersonic Wolverine" jobber aura.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Oct 13, 2010)

Hulk is not lightspeed in movement, he has the reactions to tag faster characters and it stops being jobbing when you have multiple showings.


----------



## Watchman (Oct 13, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Hulk is not lightspeed in movement, he has the reactions to tag faster characters and *it stops being jobbing when you have multiple showings.*



I wouldn't agree with that line of thinking, simply because Captain America has multiple canon victories over the Hulk, and even more canon showings where he gives him _far_ more trouble than a peak human should be able to give the Hulk.


----------



## Glued (Oct 13, 2010)

Cygnus45 said:


> Lightspeed Hulk...? I'll believe it when I see it.
> 
> Seems like nothing more than "Massively hypersonic Wolverine" jobber aura.



You should read Wolverine's fight with Hydra where he is able to fight toe to toe with a hypersonic ninja with gorgan abilities. It was probably the best Wolverine fight scene I have ever read. Wolverine especially with berserker rage has incredible movements. 

However I do admit that majority of what Logan does is bull, especially when he outclasses Thor in short range or knocks out Hercules with a table.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Oct 13, 2010)

Point taken Watchman but to be fair Hulk is not a street leveler.



> However I do admit that majority of what Logan does is bull, especially when he outclasses Thor in short range or knocks out Hercules with a table



Thor: "By Odin's blood, he is faster than I"

Yeah....


----------



## Cygnus45 (Oct 13, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Hulk is not lightspeed in movement, he has the reactions to tag faster characters and it stops being jobbing when you have multiple showings.



Oh _come on_, Marvel always makes bad matchups to keep the comics interesting.

Wolverine vs Hulk was and is a classic, _for it's time_. Nowadays Hulk is tossing meteors into space and shaking continents when he stomps, yet Wolverine still messes with him every now and then, because it's _*entertaining*_. 

Hulk vs Juggs is a classic, but I don't know why you brought it up as though Juggs is anywhere near relativistic when he is, I'll use the term you used, _consistently_ beaten and tagged by the X-men.

Thor intentionally jobs so that the humans don't "rely" on him, in his own words. Like when the Avengers are in a pinch, he'll make himself fall to some random energy bolt and wait half-asleep to see if the humans can pull a win, then he'll get up and go god-mode on the villain. We have yet to see credible speed feats for a "serious" Thor, though he's definitely hypersonic and >/= Hulk.

Similarly, the Superman vs Batman debate is often brough up by DC writers just to appeal to the fanboys. There goal isn't to stay consistent, usually, it's to make good stories and fights. 

In contrast, throughout Hulk's entire comic history, he has consitently been tagged or outright blitzed by less than relativistic attacks. Even bullets. WWH couldn't dodge Cyclops, Collosus, or Wolverine.


----------



## Glued (Oct 13, 2010)

Cygnus45 said:


> Oh _come on_, Marvel always makes bad matchups to keep the comics interesting.
> 
> Wolverine vs Hulk was and is a classic, _for it's time_. Nowadays Hulk is tossing meteors into space and shaking continents when he stomps, yet Wolverine still messes with him every now and then, because it's _*entertaining*_.
> 
> ...



WWH doesn't have to dodge it. Its not his style.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Oct 13, 2010)

No because Thor actually has to go all out against Hulk Physically though he admits he does'nt like it, Thor beat Hulk but the point was he did'nt get blitzed. Hulk is'nt a speedster so offcourse he'll be tagged , the point was his own ability to tag faster characters not his movement speed.

Thor does'nt hold back against other class 100s like Hercules, Hulk and Juggernaut. Hulk can't beat Thor that was never argued it's the reaction feats of Hulk not being blitzed multiple times against those with light speed or lightspeed reactions themselves though I'll conceed the possibility of such reactions since I have'nt seen much of his fights except those. It's best to go with the version since so many years worth of history/versions exist.


----------



## Cygnus45 (Oct 13, 2010)

Well, if the Touhou bullshit is over,

Link removed

Anyone have a problem with my list...? I compared different versions of the Hulk.



> Thor does'nt hold back against other class 100s like Hercules, Hulk and Juggernaut. Hulk can't beat Thor that was never argued it's the reaction feats of Hulk not being blitzed multiple times against those with light speed or lightspeed reactions themselves though I'll conceed the possibility of such reactions since I have'nt seen much of his fights except those. It's best to go with the version since so many years worth of history/versions exist.



Because Ben Grimm can take FTL ppl like Surfer, mirite?


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 13, 2010)

Cygnus45 said:


> Link removed
> 
> Anyone have a problem with my list...? I compared different versions of the Hulk.



Don't know too much about Shinnok, but I can't see World Breaker Hulk being able to beat Pyron, let alone Jedah.

The weaker OVA version of Pyron would probably be a better match for Hulk, though even he was a casual planet buster who could grow big enough to crush continents underfoot.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Oct 13, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Saint Seiya vs Chachamaru and Aigis Mike



Sticks and stones may break my legs. 



Eldritch Sukima said:


> Hasn't he beaten down Gladiator at least once, too?



Hulk beating Gladiator is PIS and you should feel bad for even thinking about it. And if it's what I'm thinking about, that fight had PIS and plot contrivances like Gladiator and Hulk just happening to fall near a nuclear reactor emitting a specific radiation signature that weakened Gladiator.


----------



## Ryuji Yamazaki (Oct 13, 2010)

Emperor Joker said:


> Which incarnation of the Hulk



Pick a reasonable Hulk incarnation? (i.e., not World War Hulk)


As for crossover games, I don't think there ever has been one that can really be described as canon...


----------



## Emperor Joker (Oct 13, 2010)

Ben Grimm said:


> Plus a super soldier serum.
> 
> Also, Bruce's father believed that he himself had a "monster gene."
> 
> Don't know how much truth there is in it.



Kinda ironic considering how big of an abusive monster Brian Banner was...it's also funny he would think that when he was the reason that Bruce has multiple personality's in the first place



Ryuji Yamazaki said:


> Pick a reasonable Hulk incarnation? (i.e., not World War Hulk)
> 
> 
> As for crossover games, I don't think there ever has been one that can really be described as canon...



So standard Savage Green it is then


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 14, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> No way to say for sure. It's specifically stated that she doesn't think like a human and she's shown to enjoy being active at least some of the time. In IaMP she did nothing but steal everyone's booze and drop vague hints as to who was really behind it. She had no reason to be there given that Suika was no threat to anything except alcohol supplies, but she decided to drop by anyway.



If you can just claim character motivations to be completely inscrutable, you have no arguments whatsoever as you could even claim a character that loses all the time to be invincible using that line of reasoning, by saying they just lost on purpose.



> Not really, she wouldn't lose sleep over small fry being picked on by Reimu. Yuyuko was out of Reimu's league, and if she had decided to just break the rules as you suggested Reimu would have been dead before their conversation was over. Ran is... actually stated to be more than a match for Reimu in SSiB, and Chen is no slouch if she serves as the EX mid boss. Those are the only people Yukari cares about in PCB.



Red said that Reimu has a move that makes her invincible to anyone in Touhou. So was Red just bullshitting then?



> Why exert a small amount of effort when you can exert none at all and get the same results? We've seen Yukari manipulate boundaries multiple times. It's trivial, considering she manipulates a sleepwalking related boundary as a simple hobby, and not something that visibly taxes her. She even hints at potentially unlimited stamina when chatting with Eirin.



It takes more effort to follow someone along and advise them than to just end the situation instantly. Furthermore, you are again relying on dialogue, when you've already admitted that her statements are unreliable.



> She's shown making fairly large scale alterations to reality. It's never stated just how large the netherworld is, but since there's only one it has to account for a good amount of the entire planet's deceased (If not the entire universe). Controlling it's boundary could be a continental/planetary feat or beyond.



This is what is called speculation.



> Same with freezing the night, depending on how it was physically done.



AKA you don't know and can't quantify it.



> Her boundary of truth and lie feat is difficult to quantify, but apparently it was big enough to drop a whole army on the moon.



Hulk casually sent a giant super powered dragon to the moon with a finger flick.



> What makes her broken is that ZUN's set her power up to be capable of manipulating basically anything associated with boundaries, which should leave her capable of tweaking any aspect of reality she wants.



Feats or it's as worthless as "Itachi's Yata no Kagami can block any attack whatsoever"



> But I can certainly respect a healthy amount of skepticism, especially since ZUN seems hell bent on making the Moon the most dominant force in Touhou. I'll definitely concede that she could be much weaker than I see her, but there's no damning evidence either way so we'll just have to wait and see.



Or we could just use logic and not assume she can do stuff way above what she has been shown to do.



Ben Grimm said:


> Hey Endless Mike, do you have scans of Hulk catching FTL opponents?





This is the only one I have of him hitting someone that can be said to actually be moving FTL (although there are more, I just don't have them). I have plenty of scans of him hitting people who are capable of moving FTL, just with no proof that they're moving that fast at the time. Although if you ask me, I think that should still be valid evidence.



Cygnus45 said:


> Wolverine vs Hulk was and is a classic, _for it's time_. Nowadays Hulk is tossing meteors into space and shaking continents when he stomps, yet Wolverine still messes with him every now and then, because it's _*entertaining*_.



Wolverine is practically immortal with crazy regen and his claws can still cut the Hulk (although he easily just regenerates from them). So you can see why he would be able to bug him a bit. 



> Hulk vs Juggs is a classic, but I don't know why you brought it up as though Juggs is anywhere near relativistic when he is, I'll use the term you used, _consistently_ beaten and tagged by the X-men.



Many of the X-Men are quite fast.



> Similarly, the Superman vs Batman debate is often brough up by DC writers just to appeal to the fanboys. There goal isn't to stay consistent, usually, it's to make good stories and fights.



Batman has never beaten Superman in current canon.



> In contrast, throughout Hulk's entire comic history, he has consitently been tagged or outright blitzed by less than relativistic attacks. Even bullets.



Because he really needs to dodge those, right? 



You might as well claim that Superman is slow because he lets bullets hit him



> WWH couldn't dodge Cyclops, Collosus, or Wolverine.



He didn't need to. They couldn't hurt him and he just kicked the shit out of him.


----------



## Big Bοss (Oct 14, 2010)

friend Shin Gouki solos I can do like 15 specials in a row in mugen with him


----------



## Kurou (Oct 14, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> friend Shin Gouki solos I can do like 15 specials in a row in mugen with him



He still isn't as awesome as evil Ryu.


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## Big Bοss (Oct 14, 2010)

~Strike Man~ said:


> He still isn't as awesome as evil Ryu.



I think we have a problem here


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 14, 2010)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tII7LJjBKBc[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Big Bοss (Oct 14, 2010)

basch71 said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tII7LJjBKBc[/YOUTUBE]



Sure if you are going to just stand there is cool, but Shin Gouki on the other hand beats the shit out off his opponents while they *try* to fight against him


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## zenieth (Oct 14, 2010)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dgxmyP6sKM&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


Only character you should ever use in Mugen


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 14, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> Sure if you are going to just stand there is cool, but Shin Gouki on the other hand beats the shit out off his opponents while they *try* to fight against him



You never met Igniz have you? Poor soul.


----------



## Kurou (Oct 14, 2010)

zenieth said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dgxmyP6sKM&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> 
> Only character you should ever use in Mugen



Unsurprisingly that video is in my favorites.


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## zenieth (Oct 14, 2010)

Should be in all the favorites, all of them.


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## Big Bοss (Oct 14, 2010)

basch71 said:


> You never met Igniz have you? Poor soul.



I know who he is and he is still getting his ass kick by Shin Gouki


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## Kurou (Oct 14, 2010)

zenieth said:


> Should be in all the favorites, all of them.



Axl and Sol are my two favorites


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 14, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> I know who he is and he is still getting his ass kick by Shin Gouki



Come again? 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CbHniFL6LQ[/YOUTUBE]

Kids and there Shin Gouki's


----------



## zenieth (Oct 14, 2010)

I just noticed Sol doesn't have any wins time to correct that


----------



## Big Bοss (Oct 14, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Come again?
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CbHniFL6LQ[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> Kids and there Shin Gouki's



You heard me the first time, flashy specials won't make me take my word back


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 14, 2010)

And I haven't even gone to Goenitz yet. 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJrLg4BbDaw&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

EDIT

Shin Goenitz vs 2 God Vegas

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUfFxHoFS2M&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 14, 2010)

I thought we were done with Touhou, but...



Endless Mike said:


> If you can just claim character motivations to be completely inscrutable, you have no arguments whatsoever as you could even claim a character that loses all the time to be invincible using that line of reasoning, by saying they just lost on purpose.



The funny part about this is that Yukari actually has lost on purpose before. It's canon that Reimu beat her (PCB), and equally canon that she can trash Reimu effortlessly whenever she wants (SSiB). It's also canon that she doesn't think like a human and that her personality is exceedingly difficult to understand.



> Red said that Reimu has a move that makes her invincible to anyone in Touhou. So was Red just bullshitting then?



Nope. Reimu's Last Word phases her out of reality completely, rendering her untouchable. Wouldn't help much if Yuyuko decided to make her drop dead in the middle of a conversation, though, like she did upon encountering Mokou. Reimu's Last Word would obviously break the spellcard rules, too, which is why she has a self imposed time limit on it and only uses it for fun. 



> It takes more effort to follow someone along and advise them than to just end the situation instantly. Furthermore, you are again relying on dialogue, when you've already admitted that her statements are unreliable.



It's stated that Yukari sent Reimu down because she didn't feel like making a big deal out of it. Her statements aren't necessary unreliable, but because of her attitude towards people it's best to assume she's lying when she says something that makes no sense given her abilities or known character traits. 



> This is what is called speculation.



And what's wrong with a little harmless speculation? It would be classified as a dimension in OBD terms either way, which means Yukari manipulated a dimensional boundary and outright punched a hole through it. The Netherworld would hold enough ghosts to account for a sizable portion of every human death in history as well as an exponentially greater number of phantoms and the wildlife mentioned in the PMiSS entry. For all of them to co-exist in relative comfort you'd need a pretty big place.



> AKA you don't know and can't quantify it.



What is there to quantify? She took an abstract concept that defines night and day and messed with it to remove day from the equation. Making the night and by extension the day eternal is a planetary feat. At least.



> Hulk casually sent a giant super powered dragon to the moon with a finger flick.



Good for him. Yukari apparently made the reflection of the moon on the surface of a lake real. I'm really not sure how you'd go about judging which is more impressive.



> Feats or it's as worthless as "Itachi's Yata no Kagami can block any attack whatsoever"



She's altered her own body so she can be asleep and awake simultaneously. She's controlled the sky so it looks like morning when it's night. She's magnified the sun's light so the moon shines as brightly as the sun usually does. She can easily change the seasons whenever she wants. She's made the boundaries of heaven and hell fade. She's blurred species boundaries. She's casually reformed Suika against her will despite the latter being scattered across Gensokyo as invisibly fine mist. She can see history Keine has consumed. She's nigh-omniscient when it comes to Gensokyo matters (and likely much more) due to seeing through the disembodied eyes that fill her gap world. She's transformed particles into waves and back again. She's broken the fourth wall and made use of the borders of the PC window the game runs in.

Her power is about as abstract as it gets. When she manipulates a boundary she's quite literally manipulating how the associated concepts are defined. She's tweaking the rules of reality so that the world works the way she wants it to. Her powers work exactly as described, so I'm not seeing why you'd bother comparing them to an artifact from a much weaker verse that's already full of legend based hyperbole proven to be false.



> Or we could just use logic and not assume she can do stuff way above what she has been shown to do.



Indeed. She's certainly not going to beat Galactus anytime soon, as that vastly exceeds the scale she's shown to operate on thus far. Continuing to undermine reality however she wants on a scale that can vary from single individuals to at least planetary? She can do that. She _has_ been doing that.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 14, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> The funny part about this is that Yukari actually has lost on purpose before. It's canon that Reimu beat her (PCB), and equally canon that she can trash Reimu effortlessly whenever she wants (SSiB). It's also canon that she doesn't think like a human and that her personality is exceedingly difficult to understand.



That's due to those spell card rules though, my point is that you can't claim it's impossible to understand the motivations of a character because that allows you to claim CIS for anything, it's a copout which makes it impossible to analyze the character at all.



> Nope. Reimu's Last Word phases her out of reality completely, rendering her untouchable. Wouldn't help much if Yuyuko decided to make her drop dead in the middle of a conversation, though, like she did upon encountering Mokou. Reimu's Last Word would obviously break the spellcard rules, too, which is why she has a self imposed time limit on it and only uses it for fun.



So again, you contradict yourself by saying she would easily lose. 



> It's stated that Yukari sent Reimu down because she didn't feel like making a big deal out of it. Her statements aren't necessary unreliable, but because of her attitude towards people it's best to assume she's lying when she says something that makes no sense given her abilities or known character traits.



So, in other words, her statements only count as evidence when they support your side, but don't count when they don't support your opinion.

You know that's exactly what you're saying, right? 



> And what's wrong with a little harmless speculation? It would be classified as a dimension in OBD terms either way, which means Yukari manipulated a dimensional boundary and outright punched a hole through it.



As I've said to DBZtards in the past, that hardly means anything, Buu can't blow up the universe because he opened a portal between dimensions. 



> The Netherworld would hold enough ghosts to account for a sizable portion of every human death in history as well as an exponentially greater number of phantoms and the wildlife mentioned in the PMiSS entry. For all of them to co-exist in relative comfort you'd need a pretty big place.



The ROSAT is a huge empty void that was referred as a dimension by the old Kai that could be fucking huge in size, it doesn't make Buu a universe buster just because he opened a portal between it and the normal universe. Neither does it mean anything when Bleach characters can open portals between earth and Hueco Mundo/Soul Society, or when Madara BFRs people to his dimension. It's completely unquantifiable as a power feat.



> What is there to quantify? She took an abstract concept that defines night and day and messed with it to remove day from the equation. Making the night and by extension the day eternal is a planetary feat. At least.



Was this just in the Gensokyo dimension or on the actual earth?



> Good for him. Yukari apparently made the reflection of the moon on the surface of a lake real. I'm really not sure how you'd go about judging which is more impressive.



I'd go for the one which is actually applicable in combat.



> She's altered her own body so she can be asleep and awake simultaneously.



That could be done with simple quantum superposition, or self-manipulating telepathy. Completely irrelevant in a fight.



> She's controlled the sky so it looks like morning when it's night.



Illusions, great. Useless here, though.



> She's magnified the sun's light so the moon shines as brightly as the sun usually does.



Earth would have been fried if that happened. Obviously an illusion.



> She can easily change the seasons whenever she wants.



Small - scale weather control. Storm can do that.



> She's made the boundaries of heaven and hell fade.



What exactly does this mean?



> She's blurred species boundaries.



Be more specific, as I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. If you mean turning one creature into another, that's transmutation.



> She's casually reformed Suika against her will despite the latter being scattered across Gensokyo as invisibly fine mist.



I could generously say Gensokyo is the size of a small country. Not that impressive. Also irrelevant in a fight.



> She can see history Keine has consumed.



Thus supporting the quote from the wiki I posted earlier. Also, again, irrelevant in a fight.



> She's nigh-omniscient when it comes to Gensokyo matters (and likely much more) due to seeing through the disembodied eyes that fill her gap world.



Again, that's not very impressive.



> She's transformed particles into waves and back again.



What kind of particles? Because a lot of particles are waves and vice-versa.



> She's broken the fourth wall and made use of the borders of the PC window the game runs in.



Gag feat, so have She-Hulk and Deadpool



> Her power is about as abstract as it gets. When she manipulates a boundary she's quite literally manipulating how the associated concepts are defined. She's tweaking the rules of reality so that the world works the way she wants it to. Her powers work exactly as described, so I'm not seeing why you'd bother comparing them to an artifact from a much weaker verse that's already full of legend based hyperbole proven to be false.



Because you have no evidence for any of this supposition, only what she has been shown to be able to do, which is all small scale stuff. From the feats given, she probably couldn't even beat Magneto or Storm. And she's not beating the Hulk unless you elaborate on her defensive capabilities, as in, does she have anything preventing her getting punched in the face with enough force to crack a planet open?



> Indeed. She's certainly not going to beat Galactus anytime soon, as that vastly exceeds the scale she's shown to operate on thus far. Continuing to undermine reality however she wants on a scale that can vary from single individuals to at least planetary? She can do that. She _has_ been doing that.



All I see is a variety of eclectic and mostly mundane powers which are mostly useless in combat.


----------



## Weather (Oct 14, 2010)

Well just one more wouldn't hurt I Think



> All I see is a variety of eclectic and mostly mundane powers which are mostly useless in combat.



Because all touhou fights are with Danmaku? The same reason Yuyuko didn't one-shot Reimu/Marisa/Sakuya in PCB by just telling her to die.

Like I say before we will never see what can they do without danmaku and if ZUN tells that ALL fights are with Danmaku all fights will be with Danmaku.

Like I say DON'T use Touhou in Battledome.


----------



## Weather (Oct 14, 2010)

Anyway seeing we are discusing Touhou again what do you think about this feat.


*Spoiler*: __ 



第百二十季　弥生の四
The 120st season. Yayoi 4.
巨大流れ星空中爆発
Enormous Shooting Star Explodes in Mid-air
隕石衝突の危機を回避
Meteorite impact crisis avoided.
〇月〇日23時頃、幻想郷の上空で激しい爆音と閃光があった。
〇 Month 〇 Day, around 11:00 PM. In the atmosphere above Gensokyo there was a violent explosion of sound and light.
閃光の正体は流れ星の大爆発だった。
The light was actually the explosion of a shooting star.
後日、驚くべき事に、この爆発は人為的な出来事という事が判明した。
Surprisingly, it was later confirmed that this explosion was created artificially.
今回は、その謎に触れると共に驚くべき内容を伝えたい。
This time, I'd like to report on the shocking contents of this mystery so you feel you were actually there.
流れ星を爆発させたのは、フランドール・スカーレット（吸血鬼）。
The one who made this shooting star explode was Flandre Scarlet (a vampire).
紅魔館の主、レミリア・スカーレットの妹に当たる。
She's the sister of Remilia Scarlet, mistress of the Scarlet Devil Mansion.
今回、隕石を爆発させた理由については、以下の様に述べた。
The reason she blew up this meteorite is explained below.
「流れ星？　ほら、私の手にかかればあの程度の物は一捻りよ。
``A shooting star? Look, to me something of that level is like a plaything.
きゅきゅきゅっとね。
Like "kyu kyu kyu," right?
大体、隕石一つでどうなるって言うのよ。
Besides, who cares about one little meteorite?
隕石なんて私には意味がないって事が判らないのかしら？
How am I supposed to know what a meteorite is for?
まだ槍が降ってきた方が怖いわよ。
I'm more scared of spears falling.
いや雨の方が怖いわね。
Actually, I'm more afraid of rain.
あーまんじゅう怖くない」
Ah, manjuu aren't scary at all.''
支離滅裂でほとんど意味が通じなかったが、流れ星を爆発させることは簡単だと言うことだけは判った。
Though it was mostly too incoherent to tell the meaning, we can at least tell that blowing up the shooting star was very easy for her.
どうやって隕石を爆発させることが出来たのかを聞いてみた。
I asked her how she blew up the meteorite.
「全ての物には目って物があってねぇ。
``You know how there's an eye in everything?
そこをきゅっとつつけばドカーンよ。
I shot it like "kyu" and it went "kaboom!"
え？　どうやって流れ星に近づいて目をつついたかって？
What? How did I get close enough to the shooting star to shoot it in the eye?
流れ星の目が此処にあったのよ。
The shooting star's eye is right here.
私の手の上に。というか全ての物の目は右手の上にあるんだけどね。
Right in my hand. Speaking of which, the eye of everything is in my right hand.
だからきゅーっと一捻りして・・・・・・」
I just do "kyuu" and it's no problem...''
取材は徒労に終わるところだったが、最後に紅魔館の主から興昧深い話を聞くことが出来た。
My investigation proved fruitless, however, I was able to find some juicy details from mistress of the Scarlet Devil Mansion at the end.
その話によると、実はその隕石はまっすぐ紅魔館に向かっていたと言うのだ。
According to what I heard, the meteorite was heading directly toward the Scarlet Devil Mansion.
さらに、なんと当日の隕石は予定されていたと言う。
In addition, I heard how the meteorite was planned for that very day.
隕石はその日のその時間に紅魔館に落ちてくる事が決まっていた。
It was planned that the meteorite would fall on the Scarlet Devil Mansion on that day at that hour.
放っておけば紅魔館のみならず、周辺に甚大な被害を被るところだったという。
Without intervention, the Scarlet Devil Mansion and the surrounding area would have suffered enormous damage.
ただ、妹が隕石を爆発させる事もまた予定されていた。
Only, the little sister blowing up the meteorite was also part of the plan.
主の話はそこで終わったが、何とも不思議な話である。
That's all I heard about the mistress, but it certainly was strange to hear.
気温も上がり花も咲き始め、すでに春の訪れを感じさせる。
The temperature is beginning to rise and flowers are starting to open. Suddenly, it feels like spring.
ただ、暖かくはなったが風邪には十分注意したい。
Even if it is so warm, be careful not to catch a cold.
（射命丸　文）
(Aya Shameimaru)




Oh yeah... and the And the Hakurei Border was never breached by common Youkai.


*Spoiler*: __ 



0 (~1885 A.D.) - creation of the Great Hakurei Border
last time dragons were seen in Gensokyo (Perfect Memento: Dragons)
travel between Gensokyo and the human world becomes difficult
60-year cycle year
60 (1945 A.D.) - 60-year cycle year / conclusion of World War II
the first time the Great Hakurei Border weakens
84 (1969 A.D., 20 July) - first Lunar expedition, Neil Armstrong plants a flag on the moon
84-?? - Lunar War
Lunar capsules Apollo 11 through Apollo 17 land from 1969 to 1972
Apollo 13 is damaged en route to the moon in 1970; only the Lunarians know the real cause
~35 years ago - Reisen arrives in Gensokyo
night of a full moon
after the Lunar War began, before the 100th year of Gensokyo, about 30 years ago in Bougetsusho
90-100 (1976-1986 A.D.) - Ghost Immigration Plan (Perfect Memento: Yuyuko Saigyouji)
~110 - Kourindou established
~113 - Youki Konpaku retires, Youmu becomes the new gardener
7/109 - (Bunbunmaru Newspaper) "Presenting the Ninth Are Maiden"
before 1998 A.D. - Vampire Incident (Perfect Memento: Reimu Hakurei)
Scarlet Devil Mansion appears in Gensokyo, but it isn't clear if its always been there originally or always under Remilia's control.
Akyuu believes Remilia came to Gensokyo after this incident




The only one who came to Gensokyo after the Hakurei Border was placed was Reisen and her Entry Metod is pretty much explained here:


*Spoiler*: __ 



月の羽衣とは、満月と地上を繋ぐ一種の乗り物である。しばしば天女の羽衣と混同される事もあるが、天女の羽衣は反質量の布であるのに対し、月の羽衣は月の光を編み込んだ波でできているゼロ質量の布である。この二つは全くの別物である。
The lunar veil is one of several vehicles that allow one to travel between the Earth and the full moon. It's often confused with the divine robes of a celestial maiden, but the latter refers to articles of clothing constructed from antimatter, while the lunar veil is a zero-mass garment woven from moonlight. They are, of course, completely different things.
月の羽衣は質量が無い為、下降気流でも無い限りひとりでに落ちてくる事はあり得ない。それが舞い落ちてきたという事は、必ずそれに乗っている者が居る筈である。今はその者が何者なのか、敵なのか味方なのかも判らない。だが、月の使者に居場所を知られて、また逃げ隠れる生活に戻るのは嫌だった。
Since the lunar veil has no mass, it's implausible that it would fall to Earth by itself in the absence of a downward air current. The fact that it was falling therefore indicates that somebody was using it. I still didn't know who that person was, or whether they be friend or foe. What was certain is that I had no desire to be found out by the agents of the moon and forced into a fugitive's lifestyle again.




And the SDM is doubtful so we can't say for sure.
 That's just one thing I wanted to Share.


----------



## Wolfgang Grimmer (Oct 14, 2010)

~Strike Man~ said:


> He still isn't as awesome as evil Ryu.



DSk says hi


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 14, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> That's due to those spell card rules though, my point is that you can't claim it's impossible to understand the motivations of a character because that allows you to claim CIS for anything, it's a copout which makes it impossible to analyze the character at all.



Nothing indicates they weren't using the spellcard rules during that embarrassing curbstomp. Invoking the power of a god was shown to be the equivalent of a bomb during Yorihime's battles. I don't claim her motivations are impossible to understand, just that the first impression with her is not always correct.



> So again, you contradict yourself by saying she would easily lose.



Hardly. Fantasy Heaven is a moot point if she's killed in the middle of the pre-fight conversation without realizing it, and Yuyuko can fade out and become intangible as well so the best she could hope for would be a stalemate if she survived long enough to start fighting.



> So, in other words, her statements only count as evidence when they support your side, but don't count when they don't support your opinion.
> 
> You know that's exactly what you're saying, right?



Nope, her statements count when there's reason to believe them, and don't count when there isn't. Just like any other character.



> As I've said to DBZtards in the past, that hardly means anything, Buu can't blow up the universe because he opened a portal between dimensions.



Opening a hole is only half of what she did. As mentioned by Youmu, the boundary of the Netherworld itself had been thinned. It's the difference between smashing a hole in a wall and thinning the wall itself until you can freely push through it with a little effort. Yukari did both.



> Was this just in the Gensokyo dimension or on the actual earth?



The latter seems much more likely. The duel against Eirin takes place in space, somewhere between the Earth and the fake moon Eirin created. The fake moon is stated to be identical to the real one to a human eye, and the planet seen in the background during the battle is mostly dark, implying that it's Earth. Granted, I suppose you could discount it on account of the lighting being a bit strange, though that could simply be an effect of the corridor they're in, and it's never stated that she selectively limited the freezing of the night to Gensokyo.



> I'd go for the one which is actually applicable in combat.



Both are BFR and both are applicable.



> That could be done with simple quantum superposition, or self-manipulating telepathy. Completely irrelevant in a fight.



Call it whatever you like, it's another manifestation of her power and another aspect of things that she can control. 



> Illusions, great. Useless here, though.



Not stated to be one. She says she adjusted the sky, not that she cast an illusion over Gensokyo, and the boundary she names is daylight and moonlight, not illusion and reality.



> Earth would have been fried if that happened. Obviously an illusion.



Yukari's power makes the rules. If her powers extend to the sun she could also make it burn cold if she wanted to. Regardless, it's again stated to not be an illusion. She says that the moon's ability to reflect sunlight is the key to that particular boundary, so she either brightened the sun or she effortlessly turned the whole moon into a fully reflective surface.



> Small - scale weather control. Storm can do that.



Not sure what she has to do with anything.



> What exactly does this mean?



Exactly what it says. She took the boundaries separating them from the Netherworld and corroded them enough to make them collapse completely, or at least nearly since she apparently changed the place into a lawless land of oni for a short time.



> Be more specific, as I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. If you mean turning one creature into another, that's transmutation.



Presumably it means making humans and youkai much harder to distinguish, in which case it would also be giving or taking away the various supernatural abilities possessed by youkai and certain humans.



> I could generously say Gensokyo is the size of a small country. Not that impressive. Also irrelevant in a fight.



It is impressive when you consider that Suika effortlessly shattered a large enough portion of space itself to bust the moon as a side effect, blasting it into a misty debris cloud so large some of the particles reached the Earth. Then she reformed it just as easily, in such a short time that not many people noticed it had been destroyed in the first place. She's obviously planetary in scope if she can control things across such a vast range, and she uses that same power to disperse herself across Gensokyo. Didn't stop Yukari from overriding it with no apparent effort and immediately putting her back together against her will.

Boundaries work both ways, as well, so what exactly would stop her from scattering anyone of her choosing across Gensokyo as a cloud of microscopic particles just as easily as she forced Suika together?



> Thus supporting the quote from the wiki I posted earlier. Also, again, irrelevant in a fight.



Which quote? That Keine consumes history in her human form? I'm not sure why that matters, as that wouldn't make the village any more visible to observers. The fact that Yukari could do it indicates that she's either rendered herself immune to Keine's alteration of history or perceives the world on a higher level. Either one is a nifty trait.



> Again, that's not very impressive.



It doesn't have to be. You wanted feats to support the versatility of her power, which is what I'm attempting to provide. I'm honestly not sure what Laplace's Demon falls under when it comes to boundaries, though it's obviously something related to her vision. Perhaps shared vision if those are separate creatures and not just extensions of herself.



> What kind of particles? Because a lot of particles are waves and vice-versa.



Unknown. Generic danmaku might be composed of magic or spiritual power. I'm more focused on her ability to convert things between the two states at will.



> Gag feat, so have She-Hulk and Deadpool



Irrelevant. It's another facet of her ability regardless of how you choose to interpret it. She uses a similar trick as well, manipulating the boundary of 2D and 3D to send her danmaku sliding around the edges of the screen.



> Because you have no evidence for any of this supposition, only what she has been shown to be able to do, which is all small scale stuff. From the feats given, she probably couldn't even beat Magneto or Storm. And she's not beating the Hulk unless you elaborate on her defensive capabilities, as in, does she have anything preventing her getting punched in the face with enough force to crack a planet open?



My evidence is the fact that her ability is the manipulation of all boundaries, no matter how metaphysical. You focus on the effects. I focus on the fact that she's stated to be undermining reality every time she uses her power, and that she's controlling one of the most basic concepts there is which holds jurisdiction over everything. Being asleep and awake simultaneously isn't the result of telepathy, it's the result of her rewriting the laws of the universe so that the two seamlessly coexist with each other in her case. I could probably buy this argument about her having a number of mediocre powers if her ability had never been stated or explained, but it was and there's simply no getting around that. You can argue about range or scale, but you can't argue against the fact that her ability, at it's core, is fundamentally altering the way reality functions.

As far as defense goes, even if we ignore any possible defensive use of boundary manipulation on the grounds that she's never demonstrated it, she's still a living portal gun and can still open rifts around her any time Hulk tries to punch her out. She can make him punch himself in the back of the head if she wants, or gap the fist right into his brain if she's feeling a bit more bloodthirsty. Unless we're going back to the reality warping Hulk who hangs out with herald level Spidey, it would be physically impossible for him to lay a finger on her if she just surrounded herself in a sphere of gaps. A punch might not even kill her, as the upper limits to the average youkai's regenerative ability are not known and cutting one to pieces will result in it healing immediately. Apparently their regenerative ability is sufficient to make non-spiritual weapons completely useless in youkai extermination.



> All I see is a variety of eclectic and mostly mundane powers which are mostly useless in combat.



One power, really. Reality warping, or at least that's what it would be equated to in the OBD. What we're discussing is how reality adjusts itself to fit her changes.


----------



## Weather (Oct 15, 2010)

For Suika's Sky & Moon Busting Feat


*Spoiler*: __ 



第百二十季　如月の一
Season 120, 1st of the More Clothes Month (February)
真冬の満月、大爆発
The Midwinter Moon's Great Explosion
雪のように月の欠片降り注ぐ
Fragments of Moon Showering as Snow
○月○日、夜空に浮かぶ満月が音もなく大爆発していた事が判った。
On the ○○○th of ○○○, I became aware that the Moon had suddenly and silently exploded.
大きな事件だが、夜遅くだったので意外と気が付いていない人が多い。
Although this was a major event, it occurred so late at night that most people never realized it happened.
　 	
満月は静かに拡散し、月の光を蓄えたまま無数の欠片が地上に降り注いだ。
The Moon quietly scattered out across the sky, and its countless glimmering fragments descended to the Earth.
しばらくして欠片は霧のように細かくなり、再び集まって元通りの満月となった。
Before long, the fragments thinned out like mist, and then gathered together again to reform the full moon.
それほど長い時間ではなかった上に、真夜中で音もなかった為、その非現実的で幻想的な光景を見ることが出来た人は幸運である。
Since this happened silently over a very short period of time in the middle of the night, it was a stroke of the greatest fortune to bear witness to this fantastically unreal spectacle.
一体何が起こったのかを調べるべく、情報を集めたところ、月を爆発させた者に接触することが出来た。
Setting out to find out what had happened, I was able to gather enough information to allow me to make contact with the individual who caused the Moon to explode.
　 	
事件を起こした者は、伊吹萃香（鬼）。
That individual was Suika Ibuki (oni).
彼女は非常に酔っぱらっている様に見えたが、今回の事件について質問をすると流暢に話し始めた。
She appeared to be extraordinarily drunk, but she spoke quite lucidly when I asked her about this incident.
　 	
「月？　あぁあれは単なる脅しよ脅し。みんなで面白がって、鬼は外、鬼は外って言うもんだから、ちょっと脅かしてみただけよ。流石に驚いてたみたいだけどねぇ」
"The Moon? Ah, that was a threat, a simple threat. Everyone looked like they were having so much fun, saying 'onis out, onis out' over and over, so I thought I'd just come back with a little threat. It looks like you were really surprised, though."
　 	
私も驚いたので一緒にいた人も驚いたに違いない。
I was indeed surprised, as I'm sure anyone would be.
また、どうやって月を爆発させたのかも聞いてみた。
I then asked her how she'd made the Moon explode.
　 	
「目に映る空に浮かぶ月って、一体なんだと思う？　みんな、まあるいアレを見て丸い何かがそこにあると思っているでしょう？　そこが愚かなのよ。本物はもっと畏れ多いもの。直截その姿を見せることは殆ど無いし、人間にも毒にもなる。月は何かに映った姿しか見せないのよ。映った姿は湖に映る月、硝子に映る月、全て砕くことが出来るでしょう？空の月も天蓋に映って居るだけだから、天を割れば幾らでも砕くことが出来るのよ～」
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
　 	
どうやって月を砕いたかは判ったが、どうやって天蓋を割ったのかは不明のままだった。
I understood how she'd broken the Moon, but it was unclear how she'd managed to shatter the heavens.
ただ、鬼の力は想像を絶するものである。
Still, the power of the oni defies imagination.
天蓋を割る事くらい朝飯前なのかもしれない。
They can probably shatter the heavens with their eyes closed and one hand tied behind their back.
（射命丸文）
(Aya Shameimaru)




She did it quite casually I say.

Eirin can Seal the whole earth

*Spoiler*: __ 



Eirin
あら、お迎えかと思ったら、
ただの迷い妖怪？
まぁ、お迎えが来れる筈が無いけど。
Ah, I thought someone came for a meeting.
Are they just lost youkai?
Even so, there's no chance anyone would meet her.
Sakuya
誰？
Who are you?
Remilia
咲夜、悪いのはこいつよ。
一発で判ったわ、この悪党面で。
Sakuya, this is the villain.
I knew it at once; that's a villain's face.
Eirin
酷い言われ様だわ。
確かに、この地上の密室は私が作ったわ。
でも、これも姫とこの娘の為。
What a cruel thing to say.
It's true, I sealed the chamber of the Earth...
But for the sake of this girl, and the princess.
Sakuya
そうと決まれば、倒さないわけには
行かないですわ。
If that's the case, we won't go until we beat you.
Eirin
うーん、でもまだ駄目。
ウドンゲ、ここはお前に任せたわ。
間違っても姫を連れ出されないようにね。
Too bad. It's still useless.
Udonge, I'll leave it to you.
Whatever you do, don't let them steal our princess.




And she has stronger seals

*Spoiler*: __ 



Reisen
何だ、妖怪か。
そうよね、ここまで来れるはずが無いし。
心配して損したわ。
Oh, are you just a youkai?
But youkai shouldn't be able to find their way here.
Nothing to worry about.
Reimu
私はまだ人間よ。
Hey, I'm still human.
Reisen
人間ならなおさらだわ。
Humans are even less of a worry.
Yukari
一体、何を心配していたのかしら？
こんな悪さしておいて。
Why would you worry, I wonder?
This is your mischief.
Reisen
悪さ？
んー、地上の密室のこと？
Mischief? Like... sealing the earth?
Reimu
なの？
よく分からないけど。
Maybe it is...?
...But I don't quite understand.
Yukari
満月の事よ。
よく分からないけど。
It must have to do with the full moon.
...But I don't quite get it either.
Reisen
ああ月の事？　それはね、私の師匠、
永琳の取っておきの秘術。
この地上を密室化する秘術なの。
判るかしら？
Ah, you're talking about the moon? 
That's my master Eirin's strongest charm.
It makes the Earth one giant, sealed chamber. 
Do you understand?
Reimu
判る訳が無いわ。
That doesn't make any sense.

Eirin
ううん。
そんなんじゃ人間には判らないわ。
それに、満月を無くす程度の術。
取っておきでも何でもない。
Nuh uh.
Humans can't understand with an explanation like that.
But about that moon-sealing charm.
I DO have stronger ones.
Yukari
霊夢。
こいつが犯人よ。匂いがする。
Reimu.
She's the criminal. I can smell it.
Reimu
そう？
私の勘はなんだか??。
Is she?
My intuition is... somehow...
Yukari
さぁ、この歪な月を元に戻して
もらいましょうか！
Now, banish this distorted moon!
Eirin
??それは、まだ早いわ。
今、この術を解く訳にはいかないの。
ウドンゲ。
荒事と狂気は全てお前の仕事でしょ？
ここは任せたわ。
...It's too early for that.
I can't undo this charm just yet.
Udonge.
Conflict and insanity are your job.
I'll leave this one to you.




Touhou Hisoutensoku: Reisen after beating Sakuya Claims her illucions can beat timestop and are FTL.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Reisen wins Sakuya
Reisen	時を止めたって、幻覚は避けられないでしょ？	Even if you stop time, you can't escape from illusions, you know?
Reisen	幻覚は脳内で起こる
つまり、幻覚は光速を越える！	Illusions take place within the brain.
In other words, an illusion will beat the speed of light!
[Translators' Note: According to relativity, travelling at the speed of light stops time around the object.]




Reimu Wondering how Aya can appear in the photos of her newspaper.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Reimu	なんで、新聞の写真にあんたの姿が
写ってる事があるの？
もしかして、シャッターを切ってから
超高速で移動してるとか？
??それで自分が写るのかしら？
Why do you show up in the newspaper photos?
Can it be that you moved at ultra high speeds after you pressed the shutter?
...and so you managed to photograph yourself?


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 15, 2010)

> She did it quite casually I say.



By casually, you mean drunk off her ass.


----------



## Weather (Oct 15, 2010)

> By casually, you mean drunk off her ass.



Drunk is casually for her.

NOBODY in touhou has seen her sober.



> また、無類の酒好きで、常に酒の入った瓢箪（＊３）を持ち、呑んでいない時は無い。
> A drinker without peer, she always carries around a gourd (*3) filled with sake, from which she constantly imbibes.
> その為、素面の彼女は見たという報告も無い。
> As a result, there are no reports of her behaviour when sober.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 15, 2010)

Weather said:


> Anyway seeing we are discusing Touhou again what do you think about this feat.
> 
> *snip*



I know about that feat, in fact I mentioned it earlier and said it was pathetic, considering the meteor was so small it would have only caused damage to one building. Like I said before, Hulk punched out an asteroid twice the size of earth.



> Oh yeah... and the And the Hakurei Border was never breached by common Youkai.
> 
> 0 (~1885 A.D.) - creation of the Great Hakurei Border
> last time dragons were seen in Gensokyo (Perfect Memento: Dragons)
> travel between Gensokyo and the human world becomes difficult



"difficult", not "impossible".



> 60-year cycle year
> 60 (1945 A.D.) - 60-year cycle year / conclusion of World War II
> the first time the Great Hakurei Border weakens
> 84 (1969 A.D., 20 July) - first Lunar expedition, Neil Armstrong plants a flag on the moon
> ...



So supposedly the most powerful race in Touhou can't even manage to completely destroy an Apollo - era space capsule 



> The only one who came to Gensokyo after the Hakurei Border was placed was Reisen and her Entry Metod is pretty much explained here:
> 
> 月の羽衣とは、満月と地上を繋ぐ一種の乗り物である。しばしば天女の羽衣と混同される事もあるが、天女の羽衣は反質量の布であるのに対し、月の羽衣は月の光を編み込んだ波でできているゼロ質量の布である。この二つは全くの別物である。
> The lunar veil is one of several vehicles that allow one to travel between the Earth and the full moon. It's often confused with the divine robes of a celestial maiden, but the latter refers to articles of clothing constructed from antimatter



.... The Giant Claw's use of antimatter was more realistic than this 



> while the lunar veil is a zero-mass garment woven from moonlight. They are, of course, completely different things.
> 月の羽衣は質量が無い為、下降気流でも無い限りひとりでに落ちてくる事はあり得ない。それが舞い落ちてきたという事は、必ずそれに乗っている者が居る筈である。今はその者が何者なのか、敵なのか味方なのかも判らない。だが、月の使者に居場所を知られて、また逃げ隠れる生活に戻るのは嫌だった。
> Since the lunar veil has no mass, it's implausible that it would fall to Earth by itself in the absence of a downward air current. The fact that it was falling therefore indicates that somebody was using it. I still didn't know who that person was, or whether they be friend or foe. What was certain is that I had no desire to be found out by the agents of the moon and forced into a fugitive's lifestyle again.



So, in other words, just drop in from space. Not exactly difficult.



Eldritch Sukima said:


> Nothing indicates they weren't using the spellcard rules during that embarrassing curbstomp. Invoking the power of a god was shown to be the equivalent of a bomb during Yorihime's battles. I don't claim her motivations are impossible to understand, just that the first impression with her is not always correct.



So, in other words, only you know how to interpret things correctly, but if anyone else tries, it doesn't count.



> Hardly. Fantasy Heaven is a moot point if she's killed in the middle of the pre-fight conversation without realizing it, and Yuyuko can fade out and become intangible as well so the best she could hope for would be a stalemate if she survived long enough to start fighting.



No one ever attacks during "pre-fight conversations".



> Nope, her statements count when there's reason to believe them, and don't count when there isn't. Just like any other character.



And it seems you're making up these reasons arbitrarily as you're going along.



> Opening a hole is only half of what she did. As mentioned by Youmu, the boundary of the Netherworld itself had been thinned. It's the difference between smashing a hole in a wall and thinning the wall itself until you can freely push through it with a little effort. Yukari did both.



Then take Star Trek TNG for example, by using warp speeds over warp 5 in a region of space for years they weakened the subspace barrier, so it would be more likely to explode and create a spacial anomaly. Or Dual, when traveling between two universes just a few dozen times weakened them and started to merge them together. Or DC, when traveling through the Source Wall many times weakened it. It's not exactly an uncommon thing to happen in fiction.



> The latter seems much more likely. The duel against Eirin takes place in space, somewhere between the Earth and the fake moon Eirin created. The fake moon is stated to be identical to the real one to a human eye, and the planet seen in the background during the battle is mostly dark, implying that it's Earth. Granted, I suppose you could discount it on account of the lighting being a bit strange, though that could simply be an effect of the corridor they're in, and it's never stated that she selectively limited the freezing of the night to Gensokyo.



You would think if the earth had its night extended, people would notice and it would be mentioned.



> Both are BFR and both are applicable.



How is making a reflection real BFR? Anyway it sounds like something that Rokudo Mokuro from KHR would do, which is hardly a threat to the Hulk.



> Call it whatever you like, it's another manifestation of her power and another aspect of things that she can control.



Wonderful. How about posting something relevant next?



> Not stated to be one. She says she adjusted the sky, not that she cast an illusion over Gensokyo, and the boundary she names is daylight and moonlight, not illusion and reality.



You said she made the sky *look like* morning when it was night. How else am I supposed to interpret that other than as an illusion? Besides, if you don't have proof that she altered the actual sun and moon do this (especially unlikely since it only happened in another dimension), it's not impressive.



> Yukari's power makes the rules. If her powers extend to the sun she could also make it burn cold if she wanted to. Regardless, it's again stated to not be an illusion. She says that the moon's ability to reflect sunlight is the key to that particular boundary, so she either brightened the sun or she effortlessly turned the whole moon into a fully reflective surface.



Occam's Razor. Saying she increased the sun but somehow made all of it reflect off the moon adds two undefined terms, while it being an illusion requires only one term.



> Not sure what she has to do with anything.



It's not impressive, that's the point.



> Exactly what it says. She took the boundaries separating them from the Netherworld and corroded them enough to make them collapse completely, or at least nearly since she apparently changed the place into a lawless land of oni for a short time.



AFAIK oni are living beings, not ghosts or undead.



> Presumably it means making humans and youkai much harder to distinguish, in which case it would also be giving or taking away the various supernatural abilities possessed by youkai and certain humans.



Presumably? So you don't have any actual info on the effect of this, just a statement that it happened?



> It is impressive when you consider that Suika effortlessly shattered a large enough portion of space itself to bust the moon as a side effect, blasting it into a misty debris cloud so large some of the particles reached the Earth. Then she reformed it just as easily, in such a short time that not many people noticed it had been destroyed in the first place.



What does that have to do with her own durability and self-organization?



> She's obviously planetary in scope if she can control things across such a vast range, and she uses that same power to disperse herself across Gensokyo. Didn't stop Yukari from overriding it with no apparent effort and immediately putting her back together against her will.



This is a red herring argument. Scattering a human - sized object across an area of a small country is not the same as shattering the moon.



> Boundaries work both ways, as well, so what exactly would stop her from scattering anyone of her choosing across Gensokyo as a cloud of microscopic particles just as easily as she forced Suika together?



Anyone who is resistant or immune to that, or just too durable.



> Which quote? That Keine consumes history in her human form? I'm not sure why that matters, as that wouldn't make the village any more visible to observers.



The quote that she doesn't erase history, just conceals it.



> The fact that Yukari could do it indicates that she's either rendered herself immune to Keine's alteration of history or perceives the world on a higher level. Either one is a nifty trait.



Just having some advanced temporal senses is not relevant in most fights unless your opponent is a time traveler/manipulator.



> It doesn't have to be. You wanted feats to support the versatility of her power, which is what I'm attempting to provide. I'm honestly not sure what Laplace's Demon falls under when it comes to boundaries, though it's obviously something related to her vision. Perhaps shared vision if those are separate creatures and not just extensions of herself.



No, no, no, no, you completely misunderstood. I asked for feats of power and ability, not versatility. Someone could have a billion different powers but still lose to someone with only one power if that one power was just much more powerful than their billion powers.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 15, 2010)

Part 2 (Continued):



> Unknown. Generic danmaku might be composed of magic or spiritual power. I'm more focused on her ability to convert things between the two states at will.



So, in other words, it's unquantifiable and useless.



> Irrelevant. It's another facet of her ability regardless of how you choose to interpret it. She uses a similar trick as well, manipulating the boundary of 2D and 3D to send her danmaku sliding around the edges of the screen.



No one claims She-Hulk will beat cosmic beings in a fight because she once ripped up the comic page she was drawn on and threw it in the trash. That last one though could be interpreted as space warping.



> My evidence is the fact that her ability is the manipulation of all boundaries, no matter how metaphysical. You focus on the effects. I focus on the fact that she's stated to be undermining reality every time she uses her power, and that she's controlling one of the most basic concepts there is which holds jurisdiction over everything. Being asleep and awake simultaneously isn't the result of telepathy, it's the result of her rewriting the laws of the universe so that the two seamlessly coexist with each other in her case. I could probably buy this argument about her having a number of mediocre powers if her ability had never been stated or explained, but it was and there's simply no getting around that. You can argue about range or scale, but you can't argue against the fact that her ability, at it's core, is fundamentally altering the way reality functions.



So, in other words, you're espousing a no - limits fallacy and ignoring actual feats and evidence. There is absolutely nothing different between your argument and "Itachi's mirror was stated to block anything and that was never disproven, therefore it's completely invincible". Whine all you like, at the core your argument is exactly the same, based on exactly the same faulty logic.



> As far as defense goes, even if we ignore any possible defensive use of boundary manipulation on the grounds that she's never demonstrated it, she's still a living portal gun and can still open rifts around her any time Hulk tries to punch her out. She can make him punch himself in the back of the head if she wants, or gap the fist right into his brain if she's feeling a bit more bloodthirsty. Unless we're going back to the reality warping Hulk who hangs out with herald level Spidey, it would be physically impossible for him to lay a finger on her if she just surrounded herself in a sphere of gaps.



Good thing Hulk can punch through dimensions. She would also have to react fast enough to set them up in time.

Honestly, touting this as a defense that could stop the Hulk is laughable, you know there's a Spider-Man villain who does the same thing? Let that sink in: A *Spider-Man villain*.



> A punch might not even kill her, as the upper limits to the average youkai's regenerative ability are not known and cutting one to pieces will result in it healing immediately. Apparently their regenerative ability is sufficient to make non-spiritual weapons completely useless in youkai extermination.



No - limits fallacy, not to mention Hulk can hit souls and intangibles and has strong spiritual/magical abilities. Show me her regenerating from getting smashed to atoms.



> One power, really. Reality warping, or at least that's what it would be equated to in the OBD. What we're discussing is how reality adjusts itself to fit her changes.



Then some pretty poor showings of reality warping. Even weak reality warpers like Proteus have better feats than that.



Weather said:


> For Suika's Sky & Moon Busting Feat
> 
> *snip*
> 
> She did it quite casually I say.



This doesn't say she even destroyed the moon, it says she destroyed a reflection of the moon. So that's not even really moonbusting. Master Roshi can do better than that.



> Eirin can Seal the whole earth
> *snip*
> 
> And she has stronger seals



Okay.... "sealed the chamber of the earth" - that doesn't exactly tell me much.



> *snip*



This says Yukari couldn't do anything about it. So much for her supposed no-limits powers.



> Touhou Hisoutensoku: Reisen after beating Sakuya Claims her illucions can beat timestop and are FTL.
> 
> *snip*



All that means is that the illusions were already in her mind when she tried to stop time. If she doesn't know where her opponent is and there are dangerous things around concealed by illusions, timestop won't help much.



> Reimu Wondering how Aya can appear in the photos of her newspaper.
> *snip*



That's her simply asking if that's how she does it, there is no confirmation. And even if it was, it wouldn't be FTL, because there is still time from when you press a button on a camera for the mechanism to initialize.



basch71 said:


> By casually, you mean drunk off her ass.





Weather said:


> Drunk is casually for her.
> 
> NOBODY in touhou has seen her sober.



I thought Yukari saw everything in Gensokyo? Or is that just another hyperbole?


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 15, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> I thought Yukari saw everything in Gensokyo? Or is that just another hyperbole?



Where you hear that? I know she's aware of a lot of things important but she's no crystal ball.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 15, 2010)

Similar to this thread

So the Touhou fans are lying. Not surprising.


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## Weather (Oct 15, 2010)

> This doesn't say she even destroyed the moon, it says she destroyed a reflection of the moon. So that's not even really moonbusting. Master Roshi can do better than that.



In Touhou the "Fake Moon" is the the Moon Humans visited and claimed as theirs.
The "Real Moon" is the Moon where the Lunar Capital Resides (Kaguya's, Eirin's and Reisen's Land) and Suika wouldn't dare to touch. Also is Pretty dificult to get to the "Real Moon" As Yukari Did it by altering the boundary of the Fake Moon and the Real Moon in SSiB.
Reimu and CO only got there trough their rocket because Eirin put a charm in the rocket without they knowing.

So is really Moonbusting. And also it Shaterred the Sky.

I will continue later I'm Kinda busy


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## Watchman (Oct 15, 2010)

No, Weather, it is not Moonbusting. She didn't destroy the moon, which is kind of a requirement for Moonbusting.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 15, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Similar to this thread
> 
> So the Touhou fans are lying. Not surprising.





> She's *nigh-omniscient when it comes to Gensokyo matters* (and likely much more) due to seeing through the disembodied eyes that fill her gap world. She's transformed particles into waves and back again.



That's pushing it. Is she knowledgeable on the various things and happens in Gensokyo whether it's past or present? Yes

Nigh-omniscient? No

The part about the the gaps and stuff in that sentence which she can look on to other places is true but again, calling her nigh-omniscient is pushing it. More like her range of observation is vast but that's it. I don't think she would bother with anything unimportant.

But when it comes to info, she's definitely the go to person.

I would chalk up her knowledge to years of experience and her power of observation but that's it.


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## Weather (Oct 15, 2010)

> No, Weather, it is not Moonbusting. She didn't destroy the moon, which is kind of a requirement for Moonbusting.



All right then I Concede. (not to this point but the whole thread.)
No way to prove it (At least of what I know.)


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 15, 2010)

Weather said:


> All right then I Concede. (not to this point but the whole thread.)
> No way to prove it (At least of what I know.)



It's also another point that Aya's information is semi-reliable. As in, she gets the story but she's known for jumping to conclusions.


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## Weather (Oct 15, 2010)

> It's also another point that Aya's information is semi-reliable. As in, she gets the story but she's known for jumping to conclusions.



Yeah but the subject (Suika) is reliable as Oni (specially Suika) Are no liars.
Zun Pretty much Stated that Oni Don't Lie.

Just clearing.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 15, 2010)

Weather said:


> Yeah but the subject (Suika) is reliable as Oni (specially Suika) Are no liars.
> Zun Pretty much Stated that Oni Don't Lie.
> 
> Just clearing.



I know that, I'm talking about Aya has a tendency of stretching the truth in her stories.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 15, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> So, in other words, only you know how to interpret things correctly, but if anyone else tries, it doesn't count.



Hardly. You're free to interpret it however you please, but if you come up with something that doesn't mesh well with her powers and displayed traits there's reason to doubt the conclusion. Simple.



> No one ever attacks during "pre-fight conversations".



Yuyuko already tried to kill Mokou during their pre-fight conversation only to find that it didn't work. She's an exception to the rule.



> And it seems you're making up these reasons arbitrarily as you're going along.



Really? Then let's go through it again. Yukari stating that she's trying to punch a hole in the Hakurei Boundary is taken as a sign of potential weakness, and yet:

-ZUN confirms she could easily obliterate Gensokyo if she wished. That would include the barrier that allows it to exist.
-Akyu also confirms that she could create or destroy a place like Gensokyo if she wished by creating or nullifying such a boundary, which would take a lot more power than simply punching a hole in it.
-Yukari is stated to care about Gensokyo more than anyone else who lives there. Compromising the boundary that allows it to exist is not something you'd expect her to be doing without a damn good reason.
-Yukari goes ahead and contradicts herself a little later by saying that she had already done what she was allegedly trying to do before the fight.

Hence, reason to doubt her claim or any difficulties it might imply.



> It's not exactly an uncommon thing to happen in fiction.



Okay, doesn't really change the fact that she controlled dimensional boundaries.



> You would think if the earth had its night extended, people would notice and it would be mentioned.



It was mentioned. Multiple times, and not once was it stated to only effect Gensokyo.



> How is making a reflection real BFR? Anyway it sounds like something that Rokudo Mokuro from KHR would do, which is hardly a threat to the Hulk.



Because stepping into the realized reflection puts you on the real moon. That's probably the reason it's called the boundary of truth and lie. It takes the false image of the moon and makes it a reality.



> You said she made the sky *look like* morning when it was night. How else am I supposed to interpret that other than as an illusion? Besides, if you don't have proof that she altered the actual sun and moon do this (especially unlikely since it only happened in another dimension), it's not impressive.



This is how she puts it:



> "Well, I don't care, as night soon falls. While you were teasing me I adjusted the sky to enjoy both night and day. If the night falls now, the sky will be morning. The border of daylight and moonlight is mine. How can you enjoy a feast on a night like this?"



Make of that what you will.



> Occam's Razor. Saying she increased the sun but somehow made all of it reflect off the moon adds two undefined terms, while it being an illusion requires only one term.



There's just one problem with it being an illusion: *her power isn't the creation of illusions*. It's the manipulation of boundaries, and nowhere does that ability entail illusions unless she happens to be, you guessed it, playing with a boundary related to illusions. Since there's nothing to suggest that she was, you're just making up her use of an ability she doesn't have in an attempt to downplay what she's actually stated to have done.



> AFAIK oni are living beings, not ghosts or undead.



Indeed, which changes absolutely nothing since Yukari is the one whose power allowed living beings to enter the Netherworld in the first place. Essentially this feat would be merging Heaven, Hell, and the Netherworld together, or at least blurring their boundaries enough so that aspects of both Heaven and Hell leak into the Netherworld. An interesting feat either way.



> Presumably? So you don't have any actual info on the effect of this, just a statement that it happened?



What's a boundary between two things? A dividing wall. What does a boundary between species do? It sets them apart from each other. What happens if the line between them is blurred? It becomes more difficult to tell which is which. In other words, it makes them more alike. This is common sense.



> What does that have to do with her own durability and self-organization?



It has everything to do with it. Suika's ability is the manipulation of density. In ZUN's terms, the ability to gather and scatter whatever she wants. If she can exert planetary scale power on the moon and the fabric of space itself she can exert an equal amount of power on the invisibly fine fragments of her own body, because in either case she uses the same ability. The only difference is the target.



> Anyone who is resistant or immune to that, or just too durable.



Suika should be resistant to that considering it was basically her own power used against her. It changed nothing. You wouldn't expect density manipulation to be a defense against reality alteration, but that's probably a moot point since we're ignoring the way Yukari's ability works for some reason.



> Just having some advanced temporal senses is not relevant in most fights unless your opponent is a time traveler/manipulator.



It's more like advanced vision/senses in general when Laplace's Demon is factored in along with her ability to see Suika's mist form when nobody else could.



> No, no, no, no, you completely misunderstood. I asked for feats of power and ability, not versatility. Someone could have a billion different powers but still lose to someone with only one power if that one power was just much more powerful than their billion powers.



True. Yukari has a singular power, though, not many. I'm not sure why you refuse to acknowledge this. Seems like more downplaying to me since conventional powers like illusions and weather control would be much easier to defend against than a fundamental alteration to the way reality works.



> So, in other words, it's unquantifiable and useless.



It's the ability to turn particles into waves and waves into particles. I assume she could find at least one use for an ability like that.



> No one claims She-Hulk will beat cosmic beings in a fight because she once ripped up the comic page she was drawn on and threw it in the trash. That last one though could be interpreted as space warping.



And I never claimed Yukari could beat anyone by manipulating boundaries related to the fourth wall, just that she can. I suppose making a three dimensional battlefield two dimensional for the purpose of the attack would qualify as space manipulation, so sure, why not.



> So, in other words, you're espousing a no - limits fallacy and ignoring actual feats and evidence.



As opposed to you continuously ignoring what her power is stated to be and how it's stated to work, as well as attempting to turn a single ability into a number of splinter powers in an attempt to downplay it? If I were going for a no limits fallacy here I'd just say she can remove all her limitations completely and become God because limits are another type of boundary and she can nullify boundaries.



> Good thing Hulk can punch through dimensions. She would also have to react fast enough to set them up in time.



I'm pretty sure I've never seen plain old Savage Hulk get as strong as Trion Juggernaut, but I'll take your word for it. Wouldn't he have to hit the boundary of Yukari's dimension (Assuming it is one) to break through it, though? He wouldn't be touching any boundaries, just empty space (Assuming it is space).



> No - limits fallacy, not to mention Hulk can hit souls and intangibles and has strong spiritual/magical abilities. Show me her regenerating from getting smashed to atoms.



I'd think it would be a no-limits fallacy if I said she could heal from anything, which I didn't. Hence the might, as there's no way to know how potent it is. Hell, there's no way to know if it's physical healing at all. All we know is that dismemberment won't cut it.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 15, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Hardly. You're free to interpret it however you please, but if you come up with something that doesn't mesh well with her powers and displayed traits there's reason to doubt the conclusion. Simple.



Cart before the horse, you assume how strong her powers should be and then ignore any evidence that contradicts it. That's the opposite of logical analysis.



> Yuyuko already tried to kill Mokou during their pre-fight conversation only to find that it didn't work. She's an exception to the rule.



The whole point is that she declares Reimu to be dangerous because of Reimu's track record.



> Really? Then let's go through it again. Yukari stating that she's trying to punch a hole in the Hakurei Boundary is taken as a sign of potential weakness, and yet:
> 
> -ZUN confirms she could easily obliterate Gensokyo if she wished. That would include the barrier that allows it to exist.



You can raze the place to the ground without bothering with the barrier.



> -Akyu also confirms that she could create or destroy a place like Gensokyo if she wished by creating or nullifying such a boundary, which would take a lot more power than simply punching a hole in it.



Isn't that from an in-universe source that's stated to be unreliable? I'd rather trust the words directly from the horse's mouth, as is the case.



> -Yukari is stated to care about Gensokyo more than anyone else who lives there. Compromising the boundary that allows it to exist is not something you'd expect her to be doing without a damn good reason.



Opening a hole in it =/= destroying it.



> -Yukari goes ahead and contradicts herself a little later by saying that she had already done what she was allegedly trying to do before the fight.



That only implies that she eventually succeeded in doing so, not that she spent no effort doing it. And your own reasons contradict each other: First you say that she wouldn't have even tried to do that so she must have been lying, then you say that since she said she had already done it, she did do it. Try to at least be consistent with your bullshit.



> Okay, doesn't really change the fact that she controlled dimensional boundaries.



I'm not denying that, I'm just saying it's not very impressive in the way it was shown.



> It was mentioned. Multiple times, and not once was it stated to only effect Gensokyo.



Citations please?



> Because stepping into the realized reflection puts you on the real moon. That's probably the reason it's called the boundary of truth and lie. It takes the false image of the moon and makes it a reality.



So it's a teleportation/portal. You could have made that more clear earlier.



> This is how she puts it:
> 
> 
> 
> Make of that what you will.



Sounds like an illusion to me, at best it's altering the amount of light in the sky, as it says nothing about actually affecting the sun and moon themselves.



> There's just one problem with it being an illusion: *her power isn't the creation of illusions*. It's the manipulation of boundaries, and nowhere does that ability entail illusions unless she happens to be, you guessed it, playing with a boundary related to illusions. Since there's nothing to suggest that she was, you're just making up her use of an ability she doesn't have in an attempt to downplay what she's actually stated to have done.



You just stated she was capable of creating illusions. You already said you don't trust her dialogue, so why accept it over a more logical explanation?



> Indeed, which changes absolutely nothing since Yukari is the one whose power allowed living beings to enter the Netherworld in the first place. Essentially this feat would be merging Heaven, Hell, and the Netherworld together, or at least blurring their boundaries enough so that aspects of both Heaven and Hell leak into the Netherworld. An interesting feat either way.



Weren't they able to go to the netherworld anyway in another game?



> What's a boundary between two things? A dividing wall. What does a boundary between species do? It sets them apart from each other. What happens if the line between them is blurred? It becomes more difficult to tell which is which. In other words, it makes them more alike. This is common sense.



Stop dodging my question. Did we actually see this happen, or have any detailed description of it, or are you just speculating on what happened based off a statement that it happened?



> It has everything to do with it. Suika's ability is the manipulation of density. In ZUN's terms, the ability to gather and scatter whatever she wants. If she can exert planetary scale power on the moon



It wasn't the moon, another poster already proved this.



> and the fabric of space itself she can exert an equal amount of power on the invisibly fine fragments of her own body, because in either case she uses the same ability. The only difference is the target.



Except if she did that you'd think they would be scattered over a much wider area than just Gensokyo. So no.



> Suika should be resistant to that considering it was basically her own power used against her. It changed nothing. You wouldn't expect density manipulation to be a defense against reality alteration, but that's probably a moot point since we're ignoring the way Yukari's ability works for some reason.



Obviously I meant more resistant then, besides, as I pointed out, scattering a human - sized object across a small country is not on the same scale as scattering a moon - sized object.



> It's more like advanced vision/senses in general when Laplace's Demon is factored in along with her ability to see Suika's mist form when nobody else could.



I'm pretty sure basch71 debunked this, she's not omniscient.



> True. Yukari has a singular power, though, not many. I'm not sure why you refuse to acknowledge this. Seems like more downplaying to me since conventional powers like illusions and weather control would be much easier to defend against than a fundamental alteration to the way reality works.



Because it's a no - limits fallacy, and you're assuming she can do stuff she has never shown the ability to do.

I'd accept if if she did stuff like creating and destroy galaxies and universes, changing everything in the universe into marshmallows, or any other kind of feat that high - level reality warpers often have, but all you've shown is a few vaguely - defined tricks that can only be considered to be planetary level at maximum with a lot of interpretation.



> It's the ability to turn particles into waves and waves into particles. I assume she could find at least one use for an ability like that.



Particles and waves of an unknown type that work on unknown principles, as you yourself admitted.



> And I never claimed Yukari could beat anyone by manipulating boundaries related to the fourth wall, just that she can.



Then what's the point of bringing it up in the first place?



> I suppose making a three dimensional battlefield two dimensional for the purpose of the attack would qualify as space manipulation, so sure, why not.



You said she causes things to warp or wrap around the screen, that's not making anything 3 dimensional 2 dimensional. I guess Pac-Man is a reality warper too now, since he can exit one side of the screen and come out on the other side.



> As opposed to you continuously ignoring what her power is stated to be and how it's stated to work,



Just like I ignore that Itachi's Yata no Kagami is supposed to be invincible, and how I ignore that Cell's attack is stated to be a solar system buster.



> as well as attempting to turn a single ability into a number of splinter powers in an attempt to downplay it?



If you attribute them all to a single ability then you're effectively saying she has the ability to do any random thing, aka reality warping, but if it has never been shown to do certain things or work on certain scales, it's a fallacy to claim it can.



> If I were going for a no limits fallacy here I'd just say she can remove all her limitations completely and become God because limits are another type of boundary and she can nullify boundaries.



Translation: "I'm not really wanking because I could be wanking even harder". Should I also accept it when a DBZtard says Goku is a galaxy buster, then he defends himself by saying "hey, at least I didn't say he was a universe buster"? No. One may be more wrong than the other, but that doesn't change the fact that *they are both wrong*. You are claiming she can do things she has never shown to be able to do.



> I'm pretty sure I've never seen plain old Savage Hulk get as strong as Trion Juggernaut, but I'll take your word for it. Wouldn't he have to hit the boundary of Yukari's dimension (Assuming it is one) to break through it, though? He wouldn't be touching any boundaries, just empty space (Assuming it is space).



When Hulk gets mad enough, he takes physics and common sense and wrings their necks. He's punched *time itself* FFS.



> I'd think it would be a no-limits fallacy if I said she could heal from anything, which I didn't. Hence the might, as there's no way to know how potent it is. Hell, there's no way to know if it's physical healing at all. All we know is that dismemberment won't cut it.



Good thing Hulk can hit hard enough to do way more than that.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 16, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Cart before the horse, you assume how strong her powers should be and then ignore any evidence that contradicts it. That's the opposite of logical analysis.



Wrong. I look at the way her powers have been stated to work and come to the logical conclusion that if she can control one abstract boundary over an unknown range she can control another over the same range. You're saying she can't and giving no reason for it except that she's never done so. Unless you have some evidence that certain abstract boundaries are harder to control than others or outside her jurisdiction the argument holds no weight. She's controlling a singular concept, not a variety of objects or forces, and it's already stated that the strain normally produced by her power doesn't apply to her.



> The whole point is that she declares Reimu to be dangerous because of Reimu's track record.



Dangerous within the rules that specifically stop the combatants from being dangerous? Or dangerous outside them, where Yukari could bisect her at any time with as much effort as it takes to snap your fingers?



> You can raze the place to the ground without bothering with the barrier.



Unless the boundary is no longer part of Gensokyo, ZUN disagrees.



> Isn't that from an in-universe source that's stated to be unreliable? I'd rather trust the words directly from the horse's mouth, as is the case.



The one who's known of Yukari's existence for at least twelve hundred years and spends her days chronicling Gensokyo's features, history, and residents? Why is she unreliable?



> Opening a hole in it =/= destroying it.



Compromising it, which she wouldn't do without a good reason. No reason or motivation is even hinted at.



> That only implies that she eventually succeeded in doing so, not that she spent no effort doing it. And your own reasons contradict each other: First you say that she wouldn't have even tried to do that so she must have been lying, then you say that since she said she had already done it, she did do it. Try to at least be consistent with your bullshit.



Apparently I wasn't clear enough. Before the fight she mentions that she's the one trying to tear a hole in the boundary. After the fight she says this when Reimu tells her not to tear a hole in it:

"Oh, didn't I say that I already had, before we fought?"

In other words she suggests she tore open the boundary before the fight, when before the fight she mentions that she's trying to tear a hole in it. Basically, she completely contradicts herself.



> Citations please?



Reimu, Marisa, and Kaguya all make references to the night being made eternal during the Boundary team's scenario. Not a single one of them ever says 'Gensokyo's night'. Occam's Razor, right?



> Sounds like an illusion to me, at best it's altering the amount of light in the sky, as it says nothing about actually affecting the sun and moon themselves.



The latter seems more likely since, again, boundary manipulation doesn't involve illusion creation unless the boundary in question deals with them. Daylight and moonlight certainly doesn't.



> You just stated she was capable of creating illusions. You already said you don't trust her dialogue, so why accept it over a more logical explanation?



She should be, yes, by tweaking the proper boundary, but isn't that the exact same logic you've been rejecting? She's never used boundary manipulation to make illusions, so according to you she can't, right? Or am I just misinterpreting this argument? 

We have a named boundary for the feat and an explanation of what playing with it does. We have something that fits her canon ability just fine. Suggesting that she actually used her ability to do something completely different and lied about it for no reason at all seems unnecessary to me. I don't trust her words when there's reason to doubt them, and there's none here since the night/day status had no real effect on anything.



> Weren't they able to go to the netherworld anyway in another game?



The same game unless you're thinking of something else.



> Stop dodging my question. Did we actually see this happen, or have any detailed description of it, or are you just speculating on what happened based off a statement that it happened?



No, we don't. Yukari mentions that Reimu 'crossed over from the human side', which would seem to imply that she became a youkai temporarily. 



> It wasn't the moon, another poster already proved this.



Irrelevant. Suika doesn't lie and she said that seeing the real moon means death for humans. It's also established that the real moon can drive humans insane in IN. Since humanity is not insane or dead, it's the same moon they perceive and interact with.



> Except if she did that you'd think they would be scattered over a much wider area than just Gensokyo. So no.



Did she want to extend herself beyond Gensokyo? No, so that's a moot point. 



> Obviously I meant more resistant then, besides, as I pointed out, scattering a human - sized object across a small country is not on the same scale as scattering a moon - sized object.



It doesn't have to be. It's the same person using the same ability, and there's no reason she can't apply the same space exploding force to the particles of her body to keep them scattered if someone tries to pull her back together. The fact that Yukari overrode her power and forced her together with no apparent effort is quite impressive no matter how you slice it.



> I'm pretty sure basch71 debunked this, she's not omniscient.



Really? He debunked the game, which states that Yukari "knows whats going on in all of Gensokyo at all times"?



> Because it's a no - limits fallacy, and you're assuming she can do stuff she has never shown the ability to do.



I'm claiming she can manipulate boundaries. That _is_ what she's stated and shown to do. You're the one apparently suggesting that she can't touch the virtually endless number of boundaries she hasn't had a reason to mess with yet but you haven't provided a single good reason as to why.



> Particles and waves of an unknown type that work on unknown principles, as you yourself admitted.



Indeed. This would matter if she was bending a boundary that dealt with specific particles and waves, but she wasn't.



> Then what's the point of bringing it up in the first place?



I'm really not sure at this point, because no matter how many examples you're given you refuse to believe that her power works the way it's canonically stated to work.



> You said she causes things to warp or wrap around the screen, that's not making anything 3 dimensional 2 dimensional. I guess Pac-Man is a reality warper too now, since he can exit one side of the screen and come out on the other side.



Cute, too bad that's not unique in Pac-Man's universe and thus doesn't make him anything more than what he's shown to be. This would only be a relevant point if everyone in the game could do it, but no, it's Yukari exclusive and it just happens to fit the definition of her powers. Taking a three dimensional landscape and imposing the limitations of a two dimensional world onto it speaks for itself.



> If you attribute them all to a single ability then you're effectively saying she has the ability to do any random thing, aka reality warping, but if it has never been shown to do certain things or work on certain scales, it's a fallacy to claim it can.



That's exactly what I'm saying. That's what the series and it's creator is saying. What _you're_ saying is akin to claiming that the Molecule Man can transmute the Empire State Building into solid gold but not into an ice sculpture and giving no reason as to why. I'm really not concerned with her scale, and I certainly can't make the assumption that it's unlimited just because boundaries are a reality encompassing concept since she's already demonstrated that she can limit the effects to just herself if she wants to.

What I _can_ assume is that she's capable of manipulating virtually any boundary and by extension virtually any aspect of reality, albeit with effects limited to the demonstrated area/range/scale of her powers. I can safely assume this because boundaries are intertwined with every aspect of reality and the creator of the series himself confirms that she can manipulate boundaries of any kind. I really don't understand the repeated comparisons to the Yata mirror, since the secret of it's defensive powers was already explained in the databook and disproved it's status as an absolute defense even in the Narutoverse. What's disproved the statements regarding Yukari's abilities? Absolutely nothing.

I'm all for making up reasonable limits when none are known, but I don't really see 'she hasn't done it so she can't' as very reasonable given the reality warping nature of her powers. A more realistic limitation would be an inability to manipulate boundaries she doesn't know exist or can't fully understand. Or an inability to manipulate boundaries against the will of a higher being like Eternity. Or an inability to overcome another boundary manipulator like Toyohime.



> When Hulk gets mad enough, he takes physics and common sense and wrings their necks. He's punched *time itself* FFS.



That doesn't answer the question at all. If he punches into a dimensional hole without touching the bottom, does the force of his fist hitting the empty air make a dimensional rift inside the existing dimensional rift? Because that's what it would have to do to punch 'through' a gap.


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## Orochibuto (Oct 16, 2010)

The Mugen version of Rick Astley solos

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erERit023Fs[/YOUTUBE]

You cant simply win against him, the strongest char of mugenverse was needed to take him down.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 16, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Wrong. I look at the way her powers have been stated to work and come to the logical conclusion that if she can control one abstract boundary over an unknown range she can control another over the same range. You're saying she can't and giving no reason for it except that she's never done so. Unless you have some evidence that certain abstract boundaries are harder to control than others or outside her jurisdiction the argument holds no weight. She's controlling a singular concept, not a variety of objects or forces, and it's already stated that the strain normally produced by her power doesn't apply to her.



So, just like I said - you're taking statements over feats.

Allow me to reword this:



> Wrong. I look at the way Itachi's powers have been stated to work and come to the logical conclusion that if he can block one lightning attack, he can block any attack. You're saying he can't and giving no reason for it except that he's never done so. Unless you have some evidence that certain attacks are harder for the Yata no Kagami to block than others or outside his jurisdiction the argument holds no weight. He's blocking any attack, not a variety of objects or forces, and it's already stated that the strain normally produced by his power doesn't apply to him.





You want evidence that some things are harder to do than others? Splitting a grape in half is not as hard as splitting the earth in half. Would you deny that statement?



> Dangerous within the rules that specifically stop the combatants from being dangerous? Or dangerous outside them, where Yukari could bisect her at any time with as much effort as it takes to snap your fingers?



You could say the same for Shinki, but Reimu still beat her somehow.



> Unless the boundary is no longer part of Gensokyo, ZUN disagrees.



So destroying all of the landscape, buildings, and people there and just leaving the boundary intact is impossible? The place would still technically exist, it would just be devastated and wiped out. Unless you're going to argue that doing that, which (assuming no opposition or interference) is something a squad of modern bombers could do, would also destroy the barrier, meaning the barrier is weak as shit.



> The one who's known of Yukari's existence for at least twelve hundred years and spends her days chronicling Gensokyo's features, history, and residents? Why is she unreliable?



Because others on this thread who are not wankers like you have said so. And a primary source is always more reliable than a secondary source.



> Compromising it, which she wouldn't do without a good reason. No reason or motivation is even hinted at.



Weren't you the one saying that it's impossible to understand her reasons or motivations?



> Apparently I wasn't clear enough. Before the fight she mentions that she's the one trying to tear a hole in the boundary. After the fight she says this when Reimu tells her not to tear a hole in it:
> 
> "Oh, didn't I say that I already had, before we fought?"
> 
> In other words she suggests she tore open the boundary before the fight, when before the fight she mentions that she's trying to tear a hole in it. Basically, she completely contradicts herself.



So that means she meant she was doing it previously, or was creating another hole. I honestly don't see how you can interpret two statements that say something happened as a positive and say that since there are some inconsistencies, it must be a negative. That's like if someone tells you that he has 6 apples, then that he has 7 apples, you assume that he has no apples.



> Reimu, Marisa, and Kaguya all make references to the night being made eternal during the Boundary team's scenario. Not a single one of them ever says 'Gensokyo's night'. Occam's Razor, right?



No, because if it is only shown being in one dimension, that is the default assumption. If the earth's gravity somehow changes and someone on earth says "gravity has changed" you don't assume it applies to the whole universe without some evidence. All of those characters live either in Gensokyo or some other dimension that is not the normal earth. I asked for citations of it being noticed or mentioned by people who live on the normal earth.



> The latter seems more likely since, again, boundary manipulation doesn't involve illusion creation unless the boundary in question deals with them. Daylight and moonlight certainly doesn't.



Vision is determined by light that enters your eyes. Altering the information conveyed by light is a completely legitimate way to cast an illusion. GetBackers has done this, for example. You can't assume she manipulated the actual sun and moon because she's never done anything on that scale.



> She should be, yes, by tweaking the proper boundary, but isn't that the exact same logic you've been rejecting? She's never used boundary manipulation to make illusions, so according to you she can't, right? Or am I just misinterpreting this argument?



She's done things that certainly seem to be and make sense as illusions, so yes, I believe she can create illusions. I said as much a few posts ago. 



> We have a named boundary for the feat and an explanation of what playing with it does. We have something that fits her canon ability just fine. Suggesting that she actually used her ability to do something completely different and lied about it for no reason at all seems unnecessary to me. I don't trust her words when there's reason to doubt them, and there's none here since the night/day status had no real effect on anything.



No lie is necessary. Altering moonlight and sunlight could simply mean adding more/filtering out an amount of light in the sky.



> The same game unless you're thinking of something else.



IIRC they actually became dead when doing so, and became alive again when leaving. So if the boundary between death and life was altered, that wouldn't have happened. Sort of like the Gold Saints in the Hades Arc of Saint Seiya, they could only go to the underworld if they had the 8th sense because otherwise they would die and be trapped there.



> No, we don't. Yukari mentions that Reimu 'crossed over from the human side', which would seem to imply that she became a youkai temporarily.



May I see the context of this statement? 



> Irrelevant. Suika doesn't lie and she said that seeing the real moon means death for humans. It's also established that the real moon can drive humans insane in IN. Since humanity is not insane or dead, it's the same moon they perceive and interact with.



Who cares? It's not the real moon, so the feat isn't as impressive as destroying the actual moon.



> Did she want to extend herself beyond Gensokyo? No, so that's a moot point.





If she wasn't trying to extend herself any further, that means she wasn't using her powers to their maximum capability. That means that Yukari undoing it was not countering her full powers, so it cannot be compared with her pseudo moonbusting feat.



> It doesn't have to be. It's the same person using the same ability, and there's no reason she can't apply the same space exploding force to the particles of her body to keep them scattered if someone tries to pull her back together. The fact that Yukari overrode her power and forced her together with no apparent effort is quite impressive no matter how you slice it.



If she was really using her powers to their full potential, she would have been scattered across more than just Gensokyo. Why can't you comprehend this simple line of reasoning?


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## Endless Mike (Oct 16, 2010)

Part 2 (Continued):



> Really? He debunked the game, which states that Yukari "knows whats going on in all of Gensokyo at all times"?



Yes, because that's contradicted by actual events.



> I'm claiming she can manipulate boundaries. That _is_ what she's stated and shown to do. You're the one apparently suggesting that she can't touch the virtually endless number of boundaries she hasn't had a reason to mess with yet but you haven't provided a single good reason as to why.



Because it's a no - limits fallacy and a claim that is unsupported by feats. She doesn't have feats on the scale to suggest she could harm someone like the Silver Surfer or really anyone on Herald level or higher.

Maybe I should rephrase my argument: I'm don't care _how_ her powers work, I care about _what they have shown to be able to do_. It doesn't matter if she does the stuff she does by manipulating boundaries, altering physical matter, or by making magic wishes from underpants gnomes. What matters is the actual abilities demonstrated or reasonably interpolated from her feats.



> Indeed. This would matter if she was bending a boundary that dealt with specific particles and waves, but she wasn't.



Prove it. Prove she can convert any particles to waves and vice-versa. Don't just make unsupported claims.



> I'm really not sure at this point, because no matter how many examples you're given you refuse to believe that her power works the way it's canonically stated to work.



*I don't care how it works. I care about what it has actually been shown to do.* Do you understand this concept?



> Cute, too bad that's not unique in Pac-Man's universe and thus doesn't make him anything more than what he's shown to be. This would only be a relevant point if everyone in the game could do it, but no, it's Yukari exclusive and it just happens to fit the definition of her powers. Taking a three dimensional landscape and imposing the limitations of a two dimensional world onto it speaks for itself.



That doesn't even make sense. The limitations of a 2 - dimensional world would be what everything else in the game has - i.e. you can't go past the edge of the screen, but having things wrap around isn't 3 - dimensional, it's still 2 - dimensional with a space warp at the edges. Just like Pac-Man's screen isn't 3 - dimensional.



> That's exactly what I'm saying. That's what the series and it's creator is saying. What _you're_ saying is akin to claiming that the Molecule Man can transmute the Empire State Building into solid gold but not into an ice sculpture and giving no reason as to why.



Because he's shown far more exotic and powerful feats on a much greater scale than that. A better analogy would be claiming he could transmute the omniverse into an ice sculpture.



> I'm really not concerned with her scale, and I certainly can't make the assumption that it's unlimited just because boundaries are a reality encompassing concept since she's already demonstrated that she can limit the effects to just herself if she wants to.
> 
> What I _can_ assume is that she's capable of manipulating virtually any boundary and by extension virtually any aspect of reality, albeit with effects limited to the demonstrated area/range/scale of her powers. I can safely assume this because boundaries are intertwined with every aspect of reality and the creator of the series himself confirms that she can manipulate boundaries of any kind. I really don't understand the repeated comparisons to the Yata mirror, since the secret of it's defensive powers was already explained in the databook and disproved it's status as an absolute defense even in the Narutoverse.



The databook says it will change its nature to cancel out any attack. That doesn't really undo the no - limits claims.



> What's disproved the statements regarding Yukari's abilities? Absolutely nothing.
> 
> I'm all for making up reasonable limits when none are known, but I don't really see 'she hasn't done it so she can't' as very reasonable given the reality warping nature of her powers. A more realistic limitation would be an inability to manipulate boundaries she doesn't know exist or can't fully understand. Or an inability to manipulate boundaries against the will of a higher being like Eternity. Or an inability to overcome another boundary manipulator like Toyohime.



How do you determine that, though? It seems to me like you are just placing arbitrary limits to avoid claiming no limits, but your arbitrary limits are not grounded in reality or based on feats, but instead are just as high as you feel you can get away with. That's dishonest.



> That doesn't answer the question at all. If he punches into a dimensional hole without touching the bottom, does the force of his fist hitting the empty air make a dimensional rift inside the existing dimensional rift? Because that's what it would have to do to punch 'through' a gap.



Logic like that doesn't apply to him when he's angry enough, he'll punch the dimension itself, not the space within it, and rip it open. See the arc where he was trapped in the dimensional crossroads, he was ripping through dimensions all the time, it's just that he was lost somewhere in infinite dimensions of the multiverse so he didn't know how to get back home.

Really, let's compare Yukari to Glorian. Glorian is a casual planet - level reality warper. He has better feats than Yukari as you have to do a lot of reaching and interpreting to get any of her feats classified as planetary level. Yet Hulk was able to resist Glorian's warping.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 19, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> So, just like I said - you're taking statements over feats.



I take both. Thing is, I take her feats for what they are: demonstrations of the ability she's been credited with. I don't try to pretend that her power is something other than warping reality on a fundamental level.



> You want evidence that some things are harder to do than others? Splitting a grape in half is not as hard as splitting the earth in half. Would you deny that statement?



Of course not, but it's irrelevant as her powers work on a conceptual level, not a physical one. Can you quantify the difficulty of controlling the boundary of life and death compared to manipulating the boundary of day and night? No, you can't. This argument is also related to scale, and I've already admitted that there's no reason to make any unsupported assumptions there, because we _can_ reasonably assume that manipulating boundaries on a larger scale requires more power.



> You could say the same for Shinki, but Reimu still beat her somehow.



I thought Shinki was non-canon according to you?



> So destroying all of the landscape, buildings, and people there and just leaving the boundary intact is impossible? The place would still technically exist, it would just be devastated and wiped out. Unless you're going to argue that doing that, which (assuming no opposition or interference) is something a squad of modern bombers could do, would also destroy the barrier, meaning the barrier is weak as shit.



Destroying the residents would be vastly more impressive than destroying the barrier along with the landscape. Regardless:



> She easily has enough power to annihilate *all* of Gensokyo if she so desires, so it's probably a good thing that she is somewhat weird...



Unless the boundary is no longer part of Gensokyo, it's included.



> Because others on this thread who are not wankers like you have said so. And a primary source is always more reliable than a secondary source.



Can't argue with that, but I wouldn't throw Akyu's statements out just because she's not ZUN. Some examples of her being unreliable in such matters are required before you can make such a claim.



> Weren't you the one saying that it's impossible to understand her reasons or motivations?



Hard, yes. Impossible, no. Doesn't change the fact that none are present or implied.



> So that means she meant she was doing it previously, or was creating another hole. I honestly don't see how you can interpret two statements that say something happened as a positive and say that since there are some inconsistencies, it must be a negative. That's like if someone tells you that he has 6 apples, then that he has 7 apples, you assume that he has no apples.



She says she _is_ the one trying to open a hole, not _was_ the one doing it, and when Reimu warns her not to do it after the fight there's no mention of a second hole, so that argument doesn't work. I assume this to mean she's BSing for the previous reasons and the fact that she appears to simply be trolling Reimu with the remark.



> No, because if it is only shown being in one dimension, that is the default assumption. If the earth's gravity somehow changes and someone on earth says "gravity has changed" you don't assume it applies to the whole universe without some evidence. All of those characters live either in Gensokyo or some other dimension that is not the normal earth. I asked for citations of it being noticed or mentioned by people who live on the normal earth.



There are none, since Touhou very rarely focuses on the outside world. Best I can do there is the apparently dark Earth visible during the fight with Eirin, but like I said, you could possibly discount that due to the lighting being a bit strange.



> Vision is determined by light that enters your eyes. Altering the information conveyed by light is a completely legitimate way to cast an illusion. GetBackers has done this, for example. You can't assume she manipulated the actual sun and moon because she's never done anything on that scale.



I thought we agreed that her manipulating the amount of sunlight/moonlight in the sky was a suitable explanation?



> She's done things that certainly seem to be and make sense as illusions, so yes, I believe she can create illusions. I said as much a few posts ago.



Fair enough, but that goes against the way her power is stated to work, or it means she's lying every time she names a boundary she's manipulating.



> No lie is necessary. Altering moonlight and sunlight could simply mean adding more/filtering out an amount of light in the sky.



She states that the key to this particular boundary is the moon's ability to reflect sunlight, which would imply brightening the sun or making the moon more reflective. Controlling the sunlight's path is a given since she was brightening a new moon.

So yes, if we assume she was instead creating an illusion she was lying for absolutely no reason.



> IIRC they actually became dead when doing so, and became alive again when leaving. So if the boundary between death and life was altered, that wouldn't have happened. Sort of like the Gold Saints in the Hades Arc of Saint Seiya, they could only go to the underworld if they had the 8th sense because otherwise they would die and be trapped there.



Yuyuko implies as much, yes, but how did you come to that conclusion? The meaning of life and death would only be turned upside down if the boundary was removed. Weakening it simply made it possible to go back and forth between the two worlds. Living was still living and dead was still dead.



> May I see the context of this statement?



Certainly, for whatever it's worth.

Reimu: After all, youkai are youkai... Beating them down and cleaning up afterwords has to be done by a human.

Yukari: Oh, didn't you already know? Even here, in the Hakugyokurou where we stand, the border between youkai and humans wears thin. You came this far, and were able to cross over from the human side. 



> Who cares? It's not the real moon, so the feat isn't as impressive as destroying the actual moon.



Destroying the actual moon is unquantifiable. Destroying the reflected moon is the same as any other moonbusting feat, because to humans it _is_ the real moon. What's more impressive, for that matter? Destroying the moon, or shattering the space it occupies and destroying it as a side effect?



> If she wasn't trying to extend herself any further, that means she wasn't using her powers to their maximum capability. That means that Yukari undoing it was not countering her full powers, so it cannot be compared with her pseudo moonbusting feat.



But that only applies to the amount of power she's using to stay scattered, not any increase in power she might add to resist being pulled back together.



> Yes, because that's contradicted by actual events.



Such as? The former Hell is not Gensokyo, so the events of SA are thrown out immediately. You might have an argument with IN, but Eientei is a bit sketchy since it was apparently removed from history until recently and it's not known if the gap eyes can see through history alteration like Yukari can. Assuming it was around and known about before IN, that would certainly disprove Yukari's nigh-omniscience in Gensokyo, though the method used is mentioned in a later game which leaves the possibility that she implemented it in response to the moon being stolen right out from under her nose.



> Because it's a no - limits fallacy and a claim that is unsupported by feats. She doesn't have feats on the scale to suggest she could harm someone like the Silver Surfer or really anyone on Herald level or higher.



And my argument has absolutely nothing to do with scale, it has to do with application. I don't care if her scale is twenty miles or twenty universes.



> Maybe I should rephrase my argument: I'm don't care _how_ her powers work, I care about _what they have shown to be able to do_.



And you already have everything I can remember offhand. Rinnosuke theorizes that she created constellations in CoLA, but it's just his theory and no boundary is named in association with it.



> Prove it. Prove she can convert any particles to waves and vice-versa. Don't just make unsupported claims.



Which is, again, essentially asking for proof that she was manipulating the boundary she named. I suppose we could do the same thing we did with Flandre, and assume it only works on particles and waves found in the Touhouverse.



> That doesn't even make sense. The limitations of a 2 - dimensional world would be what everything else in the game has - i.e. you can't go past the edge of the screen, but having things wrap around isn't 3 - dimensional, it's still 2 - dimensional with a space warp at the edges. Just like Pac-Man's screen isn't 3 - dimensional.



Not what I meant. The screen wrapping Pac-Man stuff is presumably just her phasing through the borders of the game window. The 2D/3D border is another trick where she sends energy waves sliding along the edges of the screen. Basically, she takes the three dimensional world depicted in the game and imposes the same two dimensional limitations it would have when seen from the player's perspective.

It's the equivalent of watching a boat on TV, except instead of sailing off the screen it collides with the edge of the screen itself and sinks. No other projectile in the game treats the edge of the screen as an actual physical boundary, save the upgraded version of that particular attack.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 19, 2010)

> Because he's shown far more exotic and powerful feats on a much greater scale than that. A better analogy would be claiming he could transmute the omniverse into an ice sculpture.



Which, again, goes back to scale and not application. This analogy would be more appropriate if I claimed she could kill Galactus with the boundary of life and death or reverse the rotation of the galaxy with clockwise and counterclockwise. That's not what I'm claiming at all.



> The databook says it will change its nature to cancel out any attack. That doesn't really undo the no - limits claims.



The mirror is imbued with every kind of nature transformation, of which there are seven: the five elements and Yin/Yang. The mirror shifts between them and uses natures dominant over the jutsu it's blocking to render them ineffective. Yin/Yang is never stated to be dominant over anything, so that leaves us with nothing but Naruto's basic element wheel, and none of the elements are capable of nullifying gravity wells or making explosions magically disappear. Even when it comes to other elemental attacks the mirror would need infinite power to nullify 'anything', which it clearly doesn't have. From what we can gather it's nothing but a sturdy mass of chakra possessing a glorified version of the Conversion 2 technique from Pokemon. The 'it blocks anything' is more databook hyperbole, as if that wasn't obvious even without analyzing the ability itself.



> How do you determine that, though? It seems to me like you are just placing arbitrary limits to avoid claiming no limits, but your arbitrary limits are not grounded in reality or based on feats, but instead are just as high as you feel you can get away with. That's dishonest.



My apologies, then. I'm really not trying to be dishonest, just reasonable given the available info. This is everything we know regarding boundaries and boundary manipulation:

*Word of God*
-Yukari can manipulate boundaries 'of all sorts'.
-The danger and potency of the power to manipulate boundaries is beyond imagination. It's something that can only be controlled by those who are able to withstand its stress, or 'some weirdo youkai like Yukari'.
-Yukari could casually annihilate all of Gensokyo if she wanted to.

*PMiSS Entry*
-Boundary manipulation is capable of fundamentally undermining reality.
-Everything is built upon the existence of boundaries. Basically, nothing could exist without a boundary to define it and set it apart from everything else.
-Boundary manipulation is an ability of logical creation and destruction. It can create new beings or deny the existence of beings.
-Boundary manipulation is one of the most dangerous abilities a youkai can possess, and is comparable to the power of gods.
-Yukari can travel wherever she wants through gaps in space. This ability is supposedly not limited to physical space and also applies to pictures, dreams, and stories.

*Demonstrations*
-Absolute minimum range blankets Gensokyo (tens of kilometers). Rises to at least moon, planetary, or star level depending on interpretation of feats.
-Routinely induces fluctuations in the Hakurei Border to allow humans from the outside world to slip through.
-Thinning the boundary of the Netherworld enough for the living and dead to pass back and forth. Ripped a hole of unknown size between the two worlds as well.
-Weakened the boundary of human and youkai across the Netherworld, potentially enough for Reimu to have become a youkai.
-Controlled the boundary of night and noon to make the evening of a new moon as bright as day. Mentions the moon's ability to reflect sunlight as being the key to the boundary, so unless you believe she was lying she either brightened the sun or made the moon more reflective. She controlled the sunlight either way.
-Routinely manipulates the boundary of asleep and awake so that she's both simultaneously.
-Made the boundaries of Heaven and Hell fade, transforming the Netherworld into a lawless land of oni.
-Adjusted the sky with the boundary of daylight and moonlight to make the night sky look like a morning one. 
-Apparently questionable manipulation of the boundary of 2D and 3D, as well as transporting herself through the boundaries of the game window.
-Manipulated the boundary of day and night to freeze the night for either Gensokyo or the entire planet.
-Limited use of the boundary of wave and particle in an attempt to drive away Aya. Transformed her attacks from particles into waves and then back again.

*Powerscaling*
-Yukari tells Aya that Ran achieving a level of power equal to her own would make it 'impossible for her to lose'. Obvious hyperbole, but it supports the idea that Yukari is at least powerful enough to crush any other resident of Gensokyo.
-Akyu refers to Yukari as the most powerful youkai. Naturally this doesn't cover lunarians (Eirin) or goddesses (Shinki), but it at least suggests that she's more powerful than Suika, who has a planetary range and at least moonbusting power.

*Other Named Boundaries*
-Winter and Spring: Yukari admits that she could have easily stopped the endless winter by playing with it, but didn't because it wasn't her responsibility.
-Light and Darkness: According to Marisa the lasers it produces aren't normal, but the darkness aspect isn't explored.
-Straight and Curve: It's effects should be pretty obvious, but it doesn't see serious use.
-Motion and Stillness: Another one with pretty obvious effects, though like the above it doesn't see serious use.
-Dreams and Reality: Marisa says she uses it to manifest 'the danmaku of both an eternally expanding dream and a rapidly shrinking reality', though what that means is open to interpretation.
-Life and Death: Not necessarily the same as the boundary of the Netherworld, since that would only involve life/death alteration as a side effect while this one would focus exclusively on it.
-Form and Emptiness: Deals with physical objects and voids? Sounds about right, but the spellcard itself doesn't give any hints on the specifics.

*Unclear/Unverified*
-The impressiveness of overriding Suika's power and reassembling her is debatable, and the boundary Yukari tweaks to do so is not named.
-Yukari is suggested to have created the youkai named constellations detailed on Rinnosuke's armillary sphere, though Yukari herself was unavailable for comment so there's no way of knowing if it's true.
-Reimu invokes a god of boundaries in the first chapter of SSiB during a fight with Yukari, only for Yukari to override and crush it effortlessly. However, Yukari notes its weakness and it's later stated that Reimu is nowhere near as powerful as Yorihime despite them both using the same ability, so how impressive this is remains questionable.

So if we assume for the sake of argument that she's capable of more than what she's shown, what would you say are reasonable ballpark limitations given everything we know?



> Logic like that doesn't apply to him when he's angry enough, he'll punch the dimension itself, not the space within it, and rip it open. See the arc where he was trapped in the dimensional crossroads, he was ripping through dimensions all the time, it's just that he was lost somewhere in infinite dimensions of the multiverse so he didn't know how to get back home.



Okay, then honest question: if he's so enraged that every punch rips through reality like rice paper no matter what it hits, how exactly does he hit Yukari at all? Wouldn't his fist strike the fabric of space and vanish into some other dimension before it could touch her? Since this is supposed to be a result of him just getting _that_ strong I can't imagine there being an on/off switch not related to his rage.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 19, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> I take both. Thing is, I take her feats for what they are: demonstrations of the ability she's been credited with. I don't try to pretend that her power is something other than warping reality on a fundamental level.



Doesn't matter what it is, what matters is what it has been shown to do.



> Of course not, but it's irrelevant as her powers work on a conceptual level, not a physical one.



Excellent, just what I wanted you to say. You've directly admitted to using a no - limits fallacy. Concession Accepted.



> Can you quantify the difficulty of controlling the boundary of life and death compared to manipulating the boundary of day and night? No, you can't.



Because they are two completely different feats. That's like saying that since you can't quantify the difference between Sakura healing someone with medical ninjutsu and smashing a rock with her fists, that means she's omnipotent 



> This argument is also related to scale, and I've already admitted that there's no reason to make any unsupported assumptions there, because we _can_ reasonably assume that manipulating boundaries on a larger scale requires more power.



You just directly contradicted yourself. First you say there is no difference between splitting a grape and splitting the earth, then you say that larger scale feats require more power. Which is it?



> I thought Shinki was non-canon according to you?



Other people were using her, so why not. It doesn't matter to my argument.



> Destroying the residents would be vastly more impressive than destroying the barrier along with the landscape.
> 
> Regardless:
> 
> Unless the boundary is no longer part of Gensokyo, it's included.



A barrier is not part of the things it bars. It is something *between* them. If the Gensokyo barrier was part of Gensokyo, then it would not be a barrier, as there would, by definition, be no barrier between Gensokyo and Earth.



> Can't argue with that, but I wouldn't throw Akyu's statements out just because she's not ZUN. Some examples of her being unreliable in such matters are required before you can make such a claim.



Let's take a look at the very source you are using:





> However, most of her stories are impossible to prove or confirm, *so no one can say if what she says is true.*



Emphasis mine. What is Akyu's source for all of the information she has about Yukari? Likely Yukari herself.



> She is actually quite talkative, eager to teach you about herself or about Gensokyo.



Therefore, the information from this source is proven to be unreliable - by the same source!



> Hard, yes. Impossible, no. Doesn't change the fact that none are present or implied.



You're playing a shell game again. You can't claim that all of your interpretations are correct and all of mine aren't just because.



> She says she _is_ the one trying to open a hole, not _was_ the one doing it, and when Reimu warns her not to do it after the fight there's no mention of a second hole, so that argument doesn't work.



Why not? Something doesn't have to be directly stated to be implied.



> I assume this to mean she's BSing for the previous reasons and the fact that she appears to simply be trolling Reimu with the remark.



Your assumptions are unfounded and ignore the dialogue. Again, why do you think two positive statements with slight inconsistencies indicate a negative?



> There are none, since Touhou very rarely focuses on the outside world. Best I can do there is the apparently dark Earth visible during the fight with Eirin, but like I said, you could possibly discount that due to the lighting being a bit strange.



Concession Accepted.



> I thought we agreed that her manipulating the amount of sunlight/moonlight in the sky was a suitable explanation?



Isn't that what I just said?



> Fair enough, but that goes against the way her power is stated to work, or it means she's lying every time she names a boundary she's manipulating.



You yourself agreed that she can create illusions.



> She states that the key to this particular boundary is the moon's ability to reflect sunlight, which would imply brightening the sun or making the moon more reflective. Controlling the sunlight's path is a given since she was brightening a new moon.



So meaning that without the moon in the sky to reflect light, she couldn't do it. Seems like a condemnation of her powers that proves my point.



> Yuyuko implies as much, yes, but how did you come to that conclusion? The meaning of life and death would only be turned upside down if the boundary was removed. Weakening it simply made it possible to go back and forth between the two worlds. Living was still living and dead was still dead.



Well then that's simply opening a path to the underworld, something that freaking *Inuyasha* can do. It's no great feat.



> Certainly, for whatever it's worth.
> 
> Reimu: After all, youkai are youkai... Beating them down and cleaning up afterwords has to be done by a human.
> 
> Yukari: Oh, didn't you already know? Even here, in the Hakugyokurou where we stand, the border between youkai and humans wears thin. You came this far, and were able to cross over from the human side.



That could mean practically anything, and was likely just her spouting bullshit for her own amusement *as canon sources say she always does.* Reimu didn't turn into a youkai or anything.



> Destroying the actual moon is unquantifiable. Destroying the reflected moon is the same as any other moonbusting feat, because to humans it _is_ the real moon. What's more impressive, for that matter? Destroying the moon, or shattering the space it occupies and destroying it as a side effect?



The burden of proof is on you to prove that this fake moon has the same properties as the real moon, including its durability. Otherwise it's unquantifiable.



> But that only applies to the amount of power she's using to stay scattered, not any increase in power she might add to resist being pulled back together.



If she really wanted to stay scattered, she would have scattered herself over a larger area in the first place. You can't prove she was using her maximum capability in that instance.



> Such as? The former Hell is not Gensokyo, so the events of SA are thrown out immediately. You might have an argument with IN, but Eientei is a bit sketchy since it was apparently removed from history until recently and it's not known if the gap eyes can see through history alteration like Yukari can. Assuming it was around and known about before IN, that would certainly disprove Yukari's nigh-omniscience in Gensokyo, though the method used is mentioned in a later game which leaves the possibility that she implemented it in response to the moon being stolen right out from under her nose.



How about this?





> (Hmm.)
> 
> (We should have had that cat take us
> to its master.)



Shouldn't she have known where the master was?



> (I wonder if you're the one who could
> stop that dreadful geyser?)



Shouldn't she know if this was the case or not? And you can't play this one off as a rhetorical question because she wasn't the one responsible for the geyser.



> (Those are winter clothes?)



Shouldn't she have known this?



> (Hm, I wonder where our cat went off to?
> It's such a pain when she just suddenly disappears like that.)



Speaks for itself



> (So, you sent the yatagarasu underground
> in order to obtain atomic energy?)



Shouldn't she have known this?



> (I see how all of this happened now.
> You can go home and rest, in the hot springs or whatever.)



Shouldn't she have known from the beginning?

Of course, you're probably going to play the shell game again and say all of these quotes were her just lying and pretending not to know



> And my argument has absolutely nothing to do with scale, it has to do with application. I don't care if her scale is twenty miles or twenty universes.



Scale is related to power. That's why a reality warper that can affect only one universe would lose to one that can affect multiple universes.



> And you already have everything I can remember offhand. Rinnosuke theorizes that she created constellations in CoLA, but it's just his theory and no boundary is named in association with it.



Concession Accepted, again.



> Which is, again, essentially asking for proof that she was manipulating the boundary she named. I suppose we could do the same thing we did with Flandre, and assume it only works on particles and waves found in the Touhouverse.



That still includes things in real physics, if she has the ability to manipulate sound waves, for example, that in no way translates to the ability to manipulate ocean waves, or vice-versa.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 19, 2010)

Part 2 (Continued): 





> Not what I meant. The screen wrapping Pac-Man stuff is presumably just her phasing through the borders of the game window. The 2D/3D border is another trick where she sends energy waves sliding along the edges of the screen. Basically, she takes the three dimensional world depicted in the game and imposes the same two dimensional limitations it would have when seen from the player's perspective.
> 
> It's the equivalent of watching a boat on TV, except instead of sailing off the screen it collides with the edge of the screen itself and sinks. No other projectile in the game treats the edge of the screen as an actual physical boundary, save the upgraded version of that particular attack.



So in Tyrian, when the laser ship appears on the back of the screen and follows you around to attack you while sticking to the edge of the screen, it's warping reality? Good to know.



Eldritch Sukima said:


> Which, again, goes back to scale and not application. This analogy would be more appropriate if I claimed she could kill Galactus with the boundary of life and death or reverse the rotation of the galaxy with clockwise and counterclockwise. That's not what I'm claiming at all.



Why not? Such claims are not logically inconsistent with your position. You just want to avoid making them because you'll look like a wanker (and that would be true). However, you think you can still get away with other outrageous claims as long as you limit the scale. After all, isn't scale itself a boundary? Don't think I haven't seen people playing this kind of game before.



> The mirror is imbued with every kind of nature transformation, of which there are seven: the five elements and Yin/Yang. The mirror shifts between them and uses natures dominant over the jutsu it's blocking to render them ineffective. Yin/Yang is never stated to be dominant over anything, so that leaves us with nothing but Naruto's basic element wheel, and none of the elements are capable of nullifying gravity wells or making explosions magically disappear.



According to Nikushimi (questionable source, I know, but still), it was revealed that everything in Narutoverse's reality is defined by elements of Yin and Yang.



> Even when it comes to other elemental attacks the mirror would need infinite power to nullify 'anything', which it clearly doesn't have.



As far as we know. After all, its limits were never shown 

Same argument you're making.



> From what we can gather it's nothing but a sturdy mass of chakra possessing a glorified version of the Conversion 2 technique from Pokemon. The 'it blocks anything' is more databook hyperbole, as if that wasn't obvious even without analyzing the ability itself.



Good, now apply the same reasoning to Yukari.



> My apologies, then. I'm really not trying to be dishonest



If you're being dishonest, why should I believe you when you say you're not trying to be dishonest?



> just reasonable given the available info. This is everything we know regarding boundaries and boundary manipulation:
> 
> *Word of God*
> -Yukari can manipulate boundaries 'of all sorts'.
> ...



This is just a bunch of hyperbole and a claim of doing something that is not all that impressive.



> *PMiSS Entry*
> -Boundary manipulation is capable of fundamentally undermining reality.
> -Everything is built upon the existence of boundaries. Basically, nothing could exist without a boundary to define it and set it apart from everything else.
> -Boundary manipulation is an ability of logical creation and destruction. It can create new beings or deny the existence of beings.
> ...



Addressed this already.



> *Demonstrations*
> -Absolute minimum range blankets Gensokyo (tens of kilometers). Rises to at least moon, planetary, or star level depending on interpretation of feats.



You already admitted that the sunlight feat didn't require manipulating the actual sun.



> -Routinely induces fluctuations in the Hakurei Border to allow humans from the outside world to slip through.



So what?



> -Thinning the boundary of the Netherworld enough for the living and dead to pass back and forth. Ripped a hole of unknown size between the two worlds as well.



Addressed this already.



> -Weakened the boundary of human and youkai across the Netherworld, potentially enough for Reimu to have become a youkai.



Addressed this already.



> -Controlled the boundary of night and noon to make the evening of a new moon as bright as day. Mentions the moon's ability to reflect sunlight as being the key to the boundary, so unless you believe she was lying she either brightened the sun or made the moon more reflective. She controlled the sunlight either way.



Already addressed, and not impressive either.



> -Routinely manipulates the boundary of asleep and awake so that she's both simultaneously.



Already addressed, also useless.



> -Made the boundaries of Heaven and Hell fade, transforming the Netherworld into a lawless land of oni.



Already addressed, and this is basically just restating one of the points you already stated.



> -Adjusted the sky with the boundary of daylight and moonlight to make the night sky look like a morning one.



Same thing as that other one.



> -Apparently questionable manipulation of the boundary of 2D and 3D, as well as transporting herself through the boundaries of the game window.



Already addressed



> -Manipulated the boundary of day and night to freeze the night for either Gensokyo or the entire planet.



Already addressed



> -Limited use of the boundary of wave and particle in an attempt to drive away Aya. Transformed her attacks from particles into waves and then back again.



Already addressed. Besides, if it was only her own attacks, you would have to prove she can do this to other things too. Plenty of characters can manipulate their own attacks in ways they can't do to anything else.



> *Powerscaling*
> -Yukari tells Aya that Ran achieving a level of power equal to her own would make it 'impossible for her to lose'. Obvious hyperbole, but it supports the idea that Yukari is at least powerful enough to crush any other resident of Gensokyo.



She's known to be a liar, as you yourself have admitted. This statement itself is self-refuting, as if Ran was equal to Yukari, she would not be able to beat her because they would be equal.



> -Akyu refers to Yukari as the most powerful youkai. Naturally this doesn't cover lunarians (Eirin) or goddesses (Shinki), but it at least suggests that she's more powerful than Suika, who has a planetary range and at least moonbusting power.



Proof of planetary range feat please? I already addressed the so - called moonbusting.



> *Other Named Boundaries*
> -Winter and Spring: Yukari admits that she could have easily stopped the endless winter by playing with it, but didn't because it wasn't her responsibility.



Not impressive



> -Light and Darkness: According to Marisa the lasers it produces aren't normal, but the darkness aspect isn't explored.



What? This doesn't even say or explain anything.



> -Straight and Curve: It's effects should be pretty obvious, but it doesn't see serious use.



Something I can do by bending a coat hanger. Wow. 



> -Motion and Stillness: Another one with pretty obvious effects, though like the above it doesn't see serious use.



Is your new debating tactic trying to make me laugh too hard to type up a response? It's almost working. 



> -Dreams and Reality: Marisa says she uses it to manifest 'the danmaku of both an eternally expanding dream and a rapidly shrinking reality', though what that means is open to interpretation.



More like it's meaningless bullshit.



> -Life and Death: Not necessarily the same as the boundary of the Netherworld, since that would only involve life/death alteration as a side effect while this one would focus exclusively on it.



So we have no feats of this actually being used?



> -Form and Emptiness: Deals with physical objects and voids? Sounds about right, but the spellcard itself doesn't give any hints on the specifics.



Same as above then



> *Unclear/Unverified*
> -The impressiveness of overriding Suika's power and reassembling her is debatable, and the boundary Yukari tweaks to do so is not named.



Addressed this already.



> -Yukari is suggested to have created the youkai named constellations detailed on Rinnosuke's armillary sphere, though Yukari herself was unavailable for comment so there's no way of knowing if it's true.



You already admitted this was unusable as a feat



> -Reimu invokes a god of boundaries in the first chapter of SSiB during a fight with Yukari, only for Yukari to override and crush it effortlessly. However, Yukari notes its weakness and it's later stated that Reimu is nowhere near as powerful as Yorihime despite them both using the same ability, so how impressive this is remains questionable.



Reimu was too weak to do it properly. That doesn't say anything.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 19, 2010)

Part 3 (Continued):



> So if we assume for the sake of argument that she's capable of more than what she's shown, what would you say are reasonable ballpark limitations given everything we know?



Not enough to beat the Hulk



> Okay, then honest question: if he's so enraged that every punch rips through reality like rice paper no matter what it hits, how exactly does he hit Yukari at all? Wouldn't his fist strike the fabric of space and vanish into some other dimension before it could touch her? Since this is supposed to be a result of him just getting _that_ strong I can't imagine there being an on/off switch not related to his rage.



No, because if he has a target, he will rip through the space until he reaches that target. See the Time Storm scan, it was a chaotic mess of time but he kept punching through it until he arrived at the time he was going to get to.


----------



## Lucifeller (Oct 19, 2010)

Can we all agree that Iron Tager comes in and GETB's everyone into paste? :ho


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 19, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Because they are two completely different feats. That's like saying that since you can't quantify the difference between Sakura healing someone with medical ninjutsu and smashing a rock with her fists, that means she's omnipotent



Another flawed analogy. If Sakura healed Nasuverse style with an AoE time reversal, would you assume she could heal someone with it yet couldn't repair the rock she smashed?



> You just directly contradicted yourself. First you say there is no difference between splitting a grape and splitting the earth, then you say that larger scale feats require more power. Which is it?



Either I'm not making my thoughts on the matter clear or you aren't paying any attention to what you quote. Let me try again, with an analogy this time since we both seem to enjoy them.

I'm sure you're familiar with Davros' reality bomb from Doctor Who. It negates the force holding atoms together and makes everything crumble into nothingness when it's used. Now, if we exposed an atom of any kind to it, assuming the atom in question didn't have special properties or protection of some kind, would our initial assumption be that it will disintegrate the atom or that the atom will survive somehow? I can't speak for you, but my initial assumption would be that yes, the atom will be disintegrated, because that's how the reality bomb works and there's not much an atom can do to stop it's binding force from being canceled out. We can assume that if the reality bomb can disintegrate a grape it can also disintegrate a rock of the same size, because a rock being a rock doesn't magically grant it defense against atomic deconstruction.

Now we introduce the scale aspect. The reality bomb's test transmitter is... eh, we'll call it the size of a hub cab, and it's coverage is presumably limited to the room it was tested in. You can't do any large scale disintegration with that, so the Daleks unveil a continent sized transmitter that can blast the entire multiverse. Does the new transmitter operate any differently than the old one? Of course not, it just has the increased power to spread the effect over a larger range.

And that's basically how I see this application vs. scale thing, just replace reality bomb with Yukari, atom with boundary, etc. If her powers are not being countered and the things she's warping aren't being protected in some manner I see no reason why she can't tweak reality however she wants within her demonstrated range.



> Other people were using her, so why not. It doesn't matter to my argument.



In a sense it does since you mentioned Reimu's track record and declaring the first five games non-canon removes 5/7 of it up to that point.



> A barrier is not part of the things it bars. It is something *between* them. If the Gensokyo barrier was part of Gensokyo, then it would not be a barrier, as there would, by definition, be no barrier between Gensokyo and Earth.



Word of God says Yukari lives at the edge of Gensokyo, more specifically on the boundary itself. Since she is acknowledged as living within Gensokyo instead of between it and the outside world, we can conclude that ZUN includes the Hakurei Border as part of Gensokyo.

We can go with your interpretation too, but that just makes it more impressive. Killing the residents involves destroying continuously resurrecting embodiments of nature, obliterating at least two immortals, and killing the Dragon. That's _without_ factoring in resistance, which would make Yukari more powerful than the rest of Gensokyo combined. Even I don't think she's anywhere near that strong, given that she tells Yuyuko that the two of them together wouldn't be a match for Shikieiki.



> Emphasis mine. What is Akyu's source for all of the information she has about Yukari? Likely Yukari herself.
> 
> Therefore, the information from this source is proven to be unreliable - by the same source!



Rather, it means the truthfulness of most of Yukari's stories is impossible to determine, just as it says. Yukari is not Akyu's only source, either, considering Keine has a close relation with her family and knowing Gensokyo's history is her job.



> You're playing a shell game again. You can't claim that all of your interpretations are correct and all of mine aren't just because.



Then give me a motive, or really anything that would give the statement credit. Yukari spirits humans from the outside world away by inducing fluctuations in the boundary, not by punching holes in it that she has no intention of fixing. She has Ran routinely check the boundary for any problems or degradation.



> Why not? Something doesn't have to be directly stated to be implied.



True, but it's not implied, so that's a moot point. Before the fight it's implied that she's trying to make a hole in the boundary. After the fight it's implied that she already did so, which invalidates the first statement.



> Your assumptions are unfounded and ignore the dialogue. Again, why do you think two positive statements with slight inconsistencies indicate a negative?



You mean besides the fact that it's out of character for her to actually do it instead of just riling Reimu up with a remark about it?



> You yourself agreed that she can create illusions.



Indeed I did, but once again, I arrived at that conclusion through the _very same logic you've been disagreeing with_. If we go by your argument that she can't do anything she hasn't shown the ability to do then she isn't capable of creating illusions. Simple as that.



> So meaning that without the moon in the sky to reflect light, she couldn't do it. Seems like a condemnation of her powers that proves my point.



Of course she can't reflect light off the moon if it isn't around. Well perhaps she could, but it would be pointless unless she wanted to make it look like there were two suns. I suppose the other side of the boundary would involve bending light away from the Earth to turn day into night, just as the moon portion turns night into day.



> Well then that's simply opening a path to the underworld, something that freaking *Inuyasha* can do. It's no great feat.



Yeah, that's half of it. 



> That could mean practically anything, and was likely just her spouting bullshit for her own amusement *as canon sources say she always does.* Reimu didn't turn into a youkai or anything.



*shrug* It's not like you'd be able to tell if she did or not. She already wields youkai-esque powers and the entire point of a boundary thinning is that it would make the things it's supposed to be dividing that much harder to tell apart.



> The burden of proof is on you to prove that this fake moon has the same properties as the real moon, including its durability. Otherwise it's unquantifiable.



It's the same moon that humans landed on, and the same moon that houses the retroreflectors of the Lunar Laser Ranging Experiment. If you want to assume it has different physical properties that's your call, but there's little to nothing that supports it.



> If she really wanted to stay scattered, she would have scattered herself over a larger area in the first place. You can't prove she was using her maximum capability in that instance.



Yukari is the only one capable of reforming Suika like that besides Suika herself, at least from what we've seen, and she obviously didn't expect Yukari to cut her fun short so why would she have scattered herself farther just in case? In addition, how would she have scattered herself through the boundary?



> Of course, you're probably going to play the shell game again and say all of these quotes were her just lying and pretending not to know



Actually, I'm just going to repeat part of what you quoted.

*The former Hell is not Gensokyo, so the events of SA are thrown out immediately.*



> Scale is related to power. That's why a reality warper that can affect only one universe would lose to one that can affect multiple universes.



No arguments here.



> That still includes things in real physics, if she has the ability to manipulate sound waves, for example, that in no way translates to the ability to manipulate ocean waves, or vice-versa.



Of course it does, because to such a generalized boundary there's no difference between them. This boundary separates particles from waves. Seismic waves, ocean waves, sound waves, they all fall under the category of wave, just as every kind of particle would fall under the category of particle, which is what the boundary influences when it's played with. Other boundaries would exist to differentiate between the various types of waves. It's the same reason there's a general boundary of light and darkness as well as other boundaries dealing with specific kinds of light.



> So in Tyrian, when the laser ship appears on the back of the screen and follows you around to attack you while sticking to the edge of the screen, it's warping reality? Good to know.



If it has a reality warping power that it's suggested to be using while it does this? Sure.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 19, 2010)

> Why not? Such claims are not logically inconsistent with your position. You just want to avoid making them because you'll look like a wanker (and that would be true). However, you think you can still get away with other outrageous claims as long as you limit the scale. After all, isn't scale itself a boundary? Don't think I haven't seen people playing this kind of game before.



Indeed it is. Too bad it's completely irrelevant as even if she can manipulate her own scale it's obviously out of character for her to do so. The fact that she isn't God makes this obvious. My position is that her power works the way it's canonically stated to work and her scale is limited to what she's shown. Awfully simple, and not something most people would consider unreasonable. It's fine if you don't agree, but you've given no evidence that certain boundaries are more difficult for her to control than others.



> According to Nikushimi (questionable source, I know, but still), it was revealed that everything in Narutoverse's reality is defined by elements of Yin and Yang.



He's half right. Rikudo combining Yin and Yang in his version of Izanagi allowed him to create things from nothingness and give them life. A form of reality warping, basically. However, that was only when Yin and Yang were combined and used in a specific way, which the mirror is never stated to be able to do. Changing it's nature to Yin or Yang doesn't mean it gains control of reality. After all, you'd think that reality warping powers would actually let it reflect attacks like it's hyped to, not just withstand them.



> As far as we know. After all, its limits were never shown



Mm, without evidence that the mirror wasn't used during Kirin we can't even say that.



> Good, now apply the same reasoning to Yukari.



Her power works as described and isn't infinite? Way ahead of you.



> If you're being dishonest, why should I believe you when you say you're not trying to be dishonest?



Well you could always try taking my word for it. I've been treating this as a friendly and enjoyable debate for the most part, and in my experience it might not be good etiquette to think someone is lying every time they type something simply because they interpret things in a way you don't agree with. What reason do I have to lie intentionally, for that matter? To affect some change to the character profiles? Obviously not, as a lot of them put the characters on a higher pedestal than I would (Eirin can bust star systems?). To convince you to change your mind? I already know that's extremely unlikely. That leaves... I don't know, but maybe I'm not thinking about this as deeply as you are.



> She's known to be a liar, as you yourself have admitted. This statement itself is self-refuting, as if Ran was equal to Yukari, she would not be able to beat her because they would be equal.



Well technically both of them fighting each other while equal would result in a draw, in which case neither one would lose and Yukari's statement wouldn't be contradicted. 

Regardless, I've already said it's obvious hyperbole and only serves to support fact that she's one of, if not the most powerful resident of Gensokyo.



> Proof of planetary range feat please? I already addressed the so - called moonbusting.



Apparently you didn't address the fact that the moon fragments reaching Earth means the density manipulation had a radius that covered the entire Earth/Moon distance. Whether you think she scattered the moon across hundreds of thousands of miles or blew a hole in space big enough to lose Jupiter in, it definitely shows a planetary range on her powers.



> Not enough to beat the Hulk



Come on, you won't even humor me? I'm genuinely curious here.



> No, because if he has a target, he will rip through the space until he reaches that target. See the Time Storm scan, it was a chaotic mess of time but he kept punching through it until he arrived at the time he was going to get to.



In other words there's no explanation for it, and Hulk's main ability is not getting stronger then angrier he gets. Instead, it's that getting angry gives him whatever powers he needs and then gets rid of them when they become inconvenient. Why isn't this listed on the OBD wiki profile?


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 19, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Another flawed analogy. If Sakura healed Nasuverse style with an AoE time reversal, would you assume she could heal someone with it yet couldn't repair the rock she smashed?



If she had only shown the ability to do that, and that power had not been shown to affect nonorganic matter, then yes.



> *snip Reality Bomb screed*



Difference is that we know the Reality Bomb works on all types of atoms since atoms are fundamental building blocks of reality and are based on our universe. Therefore it could affect atoms in other universes, because they are the same. If there was some special kind of atom in some fiction that was described as being completely different from any other type of atom with weird properties, it could be argued that the Reality Bomb wouldn't affect it.

My point is that you can't treat atoms the same way as "boundaries", because atoms are scientifically understood and have a specific definition. Just saying "boundaries", however, is too vague. What qualifies as a boundary? You could arbitrarily define anything to be a boundary, but you could also arbitrarily define anything to *not* be a boundary. Assuming she can manipulate anything you can shoehorn into the definition is fallacious.



> In a sense it does since you mentioned Reimu's track record and declaring the first five games non-canon removes 5/7 of it up to that point.



It's the Touhou wiki that declares them non-canon, not me. But if you want to use them or not, we have to both be on the same page. Do you want to use them in this debate or not?



> Word of God says Yukari lives at the edge of Gensokyo, more specifically on the boundary itself. Since she is acknowledged as living within Gensokyo instead of between it and the outside world, we can conclude that ZUN includes the Hakurei Border as part of Gensokyo.



Semantics nitpicking. Someone who's on an island off the coast of North America can still say they're in North America, even if they are not on the continent proper.



> We can go with your interpretation too, but that just makes it more impressive. Killing the residents involves destroying continuously resurrecting embodiments of nature, obliterating at least two immortals, and killing the Dragon. That's _without_ factoring in resistance, which would make Yukari more powerful than the rest of Gensokyo combined. Even I don't think she's anywhere near that strong, given that she tells Yuyuko that the two of them together wouldn't be a match for Shikieiki.



Last time I checked, the dragon didn't live in Gensokyo, even though it is called a god of Gensokyo, it's never actually seen there except rarely. And if you yourself don't buy the claim that she can destroy Gensokyo, then why are you using it as evidence in the case of the barrier hole incident?



> Rather, it means the truthfulness of most of Yukari's stories is impossible to determine, just as it says. Yukari is not Akyu's only source, either, considering Keine has a close relation with her family and knowing Gensokyo's history is her job.



Evidence that the statements in question came from Keine, please. Also, evidence that she would know enough to make those claims.



> Then give me a motive, or really anything that would give the statement credit. Yukari spirits away humans from the outside world away by inducing fluctuations in the boundary, not by punching holes in it that she has no intention of fixing. She has Ran routinely check the boundary for any problems or degradation.



Motive: She's weird and humans can't understand why she does what she does. Canon.



> True, but it's not implied, so that's a moot point. Before the fight it's implied that she's trying to make a hole in the boundary. After the fight it's implied that she already did so, which invalidates the first statement.



Or it could be taken as an implication that she was trying to make a second hole.



> You mean besides the fact that it's out of character for her to actually do it instead of just riling Reimu up with a remark about it?



It's perfectly in character if you define her character, as you do, as being completely inexplicable

Again, consider this analogy: One report of a battle says there were 500 soldiers. Another report says there were 1000 soldiers. Would you then conclude that there were 0 soldiers and the battle never happened?



> Indeed I did, but once again, I arrived at that conclusion through the _very same logic you've been disagreeing with_. If we go by your argument that she can't do anything she hasn't shown the ability to do then she isn't capable of creating illusions. Simple as that.



Except for the feats that are more easily interpreted as illusions.



> Of course she can't reflect light off the moon if it isn't around. Well perhaps she could, but it would be pointless unless she wanted to make it look like there were two suns.



She could make the light reflect off of empty space, if she can control the path of light that would be trivial.



> Yeah, that's half of it.



What's the other half, then?



> *shrug* It's not like you'd be able to tell if she did or not. She already wields youkai-esque powers and the entire point of a boundary thinning is that it would make the things it's supposed to be dividing that much harder to tell apart.



Unquantifiable bullshit. Gotcha.

Hey, guess what? I just turned you into an idiot! But you already wield idiot-esque logic so no one can tell the difference 



> It's the same moon that humans landed on, and the same moon that houses the retroreflectors of the Lunar Laser Ranging Experiment. If you want to assume it has different physical properties that's your call, but there's little to nothing that supports it.



Scientific competence doesn't carry over from real life to fiction. Would you mind posting quotes that prove that the LLRE exists in Touhouverse?



> Yukari is the only one capable of reforming Suika like that besides Suika herself, at least from what we've seen, and she obviously didn't expect Yukari to cut her fun short so why would she have scattered herself farther just in case?



Because if she was scattering herself with her full potential, she would have done so.



> In addition, how would she have scattered herself through the boundary?



Same way she shattered the fake moon through the boundary.



> Actually, I'm just going to repeat part of what you quoted.
> 
> *The former Hell is not Gensokyo, so the events of SA are thrown out immediately.*



It's underground. That doesn't count? Or is all you have to do to foil her so-called omniscience to bury yourself under a few feet of dirt?



> Of course it does, because to such a generalized boundary there's no difference between them. This boundary separates particles from waves. Seismic waves, ocean waves, sound waves, they all fall under the category of wave, just as every kind of particle would fall under the category of particle, which is what the boundary influences when it's played with. Other boundaries would exist to differentiate between the various types of waves. It's the same reason there's a general boundary of light and darkness as well as other boundaries dealing with specific kinds of light.



Prove it. You really don't understand standards of proof here. Let's take the character Vulcan from Marvel Comics as an example. When he was first introduced, it was stated that he had the power to manipulate energy - any kind of energy. People debating him in vs. fights didn't just take that as gospel, they argued based on actual feats. No one said he could manipulate magic, for example, until he actually showed the ability to do so. When put in a match against someone who used a form of energy he had never shown to manipulate, often the question was asked "can he manipulate their energy?" And without clear evidence, the best response that could be offered was "maybe". They didn't just assume that the statement that he could manipulate any and all types of energy was completely 100% true. Feats are more important than statements.



> If it has a reality warping power that it's suggested to be using while it does this? Sure.



Well it has been employed by Vykromod and Zinglon, both reality warpers. But it's obviously just a game mechanic.

Also, I would appreciate it if you would reply to all of my points, and not just dodge so many of them.


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## Weather (Oct 19, 2010)

Hello well I know I conceded, but hey I got free time.

I'll just answer This.



> Scientific competence doesn't carry over from real life to fiction. Would you mind posting quotes that prove that the LLRE exists in Touhouverse?



Link removed
Link removed
Link removed

That's it for now.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Oct 19, 2010)

Ryuji Yamazaki said:


> Which fighting game characters (particularly large bricky types) could you see as being a credible match for the Hulk?



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8gAEB5P-A8[/YOUTUBE]


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## Endless Mike (Oct 19, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Indeed it is. Too bad it's completely irrelevant as even if she can manipulate her own scale it's obviously out of character for her to do so. The fact that she isn't God makes this obvious.



There's a little thing in the OBD called bloodlust that's on by default.



> My position is that her power works the way it's canonically stated to work and her scale is limited to what she's shown. Awfully simple, and not something most people would consider unreasonable. It's fine if you don't agree, but you've given no evidence that certain boundaries are more difficult for her to control than others.



Again, does one of those boundaries include scale? Because there is literally nothing holding you back from making far more wanktastic claims. Why do you treat scale as something she can't get around, without any reasoning for this? Your position is inconsistent. Either go full - out wank mode and claim she's omnipotent and can do anything, or accept that she can only do what she has shown to be able to do. Any other option would be dishonesty.



> He's half right. Rikudo combining Yin and Yang in his version of Izanagi allowed him to create things from nothingness and give them life. A form of reality warping, basically. However, that was only when Yin and Yang were combined and used in a specific way, which the mirror is never stated to be able to do. Changing it's nature to Yin or Yang doesn't mean it gains control of reality. After all, you'd think that reality warping powers would actually let it reflect attacks like it's hyped to, not just withstand them.



No point in reflecting the lightning bolt back up to the cloud it came from. Anyway, his point was that everything in Narutoverse had Yin, Yang, or a combination of the two, therefore he claimed it could reflect anything in Narutoverse and, via equivalence, anything in any other verse at all. Your argument is the same.



> Mm, without evidence that the mirror wasn't used during Kirin we can't even say that.



It blocked the Kirin



> Her power works as described and isn't infinite? Way ahead of you.



According to your logic she can make it infinite by changing the barrier between finite and infinite.



> Well you could always try taking my word for it.



I only afford that privilege to people I know well. Stick around here a few years and maybe I will.



> I've been treating this as a friendly and enjoyable debate for the most part, and in my experience it might not be good etiquette to think someone is lying every time they type something simply because they interpret things in a way you don't agree with.



Playing the etiquette card?

Allow me to quote from the OBD Wiki:





			
				OBD Wiki said:
			
		

> 45. Style over substance fallacy
> This has two forms: First, when a person ignores the valid points in an argument because of the way it is presented.
> 
> Example:
> ...





> What reason do I have to lie intentionally, for that matter? To affect some change to the character profiles? Obviously not, as a lot of them put the characters on a higher pedestal than I would (Eirin can bust star systems?).



You can thank Red for that. He wrote them all up before he was banned.



> To convince you to change your mind? I already know that's extremely unlikely. That leaves... I don't know, but maybe I'm not thinking about this as deeply as you are.



I don't know you, you're new, so how do you expect me to know why you would lie? However, I do know fanboys. Fanboys will do anything to ensure their favorite characters win a match, even if their arguments never convince anyone. That includes blatantly lying. Example.

I'm not saying you're anything like him, but I have been hardened by years of debating trolls and fanatics, and I naturally suspect people of these kinds of things.



> Well technically both of them fighting each other while equal would result in a draw, in which case neither one would lose and Yukari's statement wouldn't be contradicted.



If one of them can be elevated to that level, then one of them could elevate someone else and double - team the other one.



> Regardless, I've already said it's obvious hyperbole and only serves to support fact that she's one of, if not the most powerful resident of Gensokyo.



Yet in your previous post, you said you didn't think she could kill them all.



> Apparently you didn't address the fact that the moon fragments reaching Earth means the density manipulation had a radius that covered the entire Earth/Moon distance.





Really? That's your argument? If someone shoots down a bird with a gun, and it falls to the ground, does that mean the radius of their attack covers the entire distance from the bird to the ground?



> Whether you think she scattered the moon across hundreds of thousands of miles or blew a hole in space big enough to lose Jupiter in, it definitely shows a planetary range on her powers.



Range, yes. If she could affect the moon from the earth, that's decent range. Not power, though. Master Roshi could do the same thing in Dragonball.



> Come on, you won't even humor me? I'm genuinely curious here.



That's all that needs to be said in this thread.



> In other words there's no explanation for it, and Hulk's main ability is not getting stronger then angrier he gets. Instead, it's that getting angry gives him whatever powers he needs and then gets rid of them when they become inconvenient. Why isn't this listed on the OBD wiki profile?



He can not only resist reality warping but fuck with the laws of nature and physics themselves when he gets mad enough (like grabbing an energy field and folding it like a sheet). Granted, I'm using high - end feats mostly, but at least I'm basing this all on feats, not speculation and statements like you're doing.

I will say this, however - if the Hulk just stood there and let Yukari fuck with him as much as she wanted, she probably would find a way to kill or defeat him. But that's not how a battle would go down.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 19, 2010)

Weather said:


> Hello well I know I conceded, but hey I got free time.
> 
> I'll just answer This.
> 
> ...



Touche, but that does nothing to discredit my point, in fact it actually gives credence to it, since RL scientists are not so incompetent as to fail to notice or account for such a thing.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 19, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> If she had only shown the ability to do that, and that power had not been shown to affect nonorganic matter, then yes.



Why, though? That would assume that the rock is somehow immune to changes in the flow of time, and that doesn't seem like a reasonable assumption to make unless there's precedent for it elsewhere, like a mineral that's outside time or something silly like that.



> My point is that you can't treat atoms the same way as "boundaries", because atoms are scientifically understood and have a specific definition. Just saying "boundaries", however, is too vague. What qualifies as a boundary? You could arbitrarily define anything to be a boundary, but you could also arbitrarily define anything to *not* be a boundary. Assuming she can manipulate anything you can shoehorn into the definition is fallacious.



If you believe the only canon explanation of her powers the boundaries she usually manipulates are basically invisible dividing lines between any two opposing aspects of reality. I can't really help you when it comes to nailing down a more concrete definition with statements like 'Yukari can manipulate boundaries of all sorts' and 'Everything is built upon the existence of boundaries' being thrown around. 



> It's the Touhou wiki that declares them non-canon, not me. But if you want to use them or not, we have to both be on the same page. Do you want to use them in this debate or not?



There's really no need as the events of the first five games are fairly irrelevant when it comes to Yukari. Shinki might matter if we were discussing the overall standing of the Touhouverse, but if we can't agree on one character we certainly won't agree on a hundred.



> Last time I checked, the dragon didn't live in Gensokyo, even though it is called a god of Gensokyo, it's never actually seen there except rarely. And if you yourself don't buy the claim that she can destroy Gensokyo, then why are you using it as evidence in the case of the barrier hole incident?



The Dragon can leave Gensokyo at will but it does live there some of the time. Iku's SWR profile confirms that it can at least occasionally be found in the clouds:



> She spends most of her time swimming through clouds. Doing nothing in particular, she observes the dragon god as she swims elegantly through clouds. Thus she causes almost no harm to humans.



Since Iku is one of the Dragon's envoys, it makes sense that it would keep her within easy reach.

I do buy the claim that she can destroy Gensokyo. To deny it would be to say the creator of the series has no idea how powerful his own character is. Thing is, it can be interpreted multiple ways. I choose the 'destroy the boundary and the land mass inside it' way. Anything involving destroying the inhabitants as well would literally mean that Yukari could solo Gensokyo. Yukari _is_ my favorite character in the series and I'd be lying if I said the idea didn't please my inner fanboy, but it makes no sense at all in context. Yukari is established as extremely powerful, probably the most powerful character shown so far, but there's a big leap between that and kill off the rest of the cast with a snap of her fingers, Thanos style.



> Evidence that the statements in question came from Keine, please. Also, evidence that she would know enough to make those claims.



There is none, I'm just pointing out that Yukari is not the only source of info around. There are a plethora of other ancient beings Akyu could speak with. As far as Keine goes, Word of God says she knows Gensokyo's history like the back of her hand.



> Motive: She's weird and humans can't understand why she does what she does. Canon.



Indeed, but that's a character trait and not a motive. There's a difference between being weird and being a sanity shattering abomination who feels most at home in Azathoth's court. One still needs motives even if they're needlessly cryptic and good at obfuscating them.

Unless she's just insane, which strikes me as a distinct possibility.



> Or it could be taken as an implication that she was trying to make a second hole.



Why not just widen the first one, if this were the case? Yukari is lazy as can be, so wouldn't it be much simpler to work on an existing hole than make a brand new one?



> It's perfectly in character if you define her character, as you do, as being completely inexplicable



Even the debate itself has hyperbole. When did 'hard to understand' become 'something incomprehensible by mortal minds'?



> Again, consider this analogy: One report of a battle says there were 500 soldiers. Another report says there were 1000 soldiers. Would you then conclude that there were 0 soldiers and the battle never happened?



Not necessarily, but wouldn't a better analogy be one report that says the battle in question is about to take place and another saying it concluded five minutes ago?



> Except for the feats that are more easily interpreted as illusions.



But the interpretation is worthless if it contradicts canon. You can't just look at a feat and make up a power to explain how the character is doing it, especially if they already have a canonical ability.



> She could make the light reflect off of empty space, if she can control the path of light that would be trivial.



Well sure she could bend the light that way if she can control it's path to reflect it off a new moon, but it wouldn't have quite the same effect. 



> What's the other half, then?



Like I said, thinning the boundaries of the dimension itself. Imagine holding one of those inflated rubber balls, except it's skin was somehow made as thin as that of a soap bubble. Then you poked a hole in it and it somehow didn't pop. There you go, that's your dimension after Yukari is finished screwing with it's boundaries.



> Scientific competence doesn't carry over from real life to fiction.



So how do you come to the conclusion that the moon Piccolo busted is as durable as the actual one, for example?



> Because if she was scattering herself with her full potential, she would have done so.



Point taken, but this does nothing to eliminate the idea that she would add more power to resist being pulled back together once the process started, unless Yukari reformed her before she could react.



> Same way she shattered the fake moon through the boundary.



Possibly. The moon's fragments reached Gensokyo, after all. Of course, she was interested in throwing feasts within Gensokyo, not across the planet. 



> It's underground. That doesn't count? Or is all you have to do to foil her so-called omniscience to bury yourself under a few feet of dirt?



No, it doesn't, because it's not considered part of Gensokyo and that's the only place she's ever stated to be observing constantly.



> Feats are more important than statements.



*shrug* Then Yukari is fairly weak by the OBD's standards, or more accurately too reliant on hype and powerscaling due to a lack of combat related feats.



> Also, I would appreciate it if you would reply to all of my points, and not just dodge so many of them.



If I don't respond to something it's probably because I've conceded the point, don't disagree with your stance, or just feel it's being adequately covered elsewhere. If you want me to reply to something in particular, by all means point it out.



Endless Mike said:


> There's a little thing in the OBD called bloodlust that's on by default.



Well that certainly explains why Hulk is angry enough to pull off his highest end feats right off the bat. In that case, if Yukari can control her own scale a lot of people are screwed, and if she can't then she can't.



> Again, does one of those boundaries include scale? Because there is literally nothing holding you back from making far more wanktastic claims. Why do you treat scale as something she can't get around, without any reasoning for this? Your position is inconsistent. Either go full - out wank mode and claim she's omnipotent and can do anything, or accept that she can only do what she has shown to be able to do. Any other option would be dishonesty.



That would be amusing, but it would also be ridiculous and we both know it. I see your point here, but the 'she can only do what she's shown to be able to do' argument still doesn't work. If we went by this logic her position in her own series simply wouldn't make any sense. Think about it. This is a world in which a 'god incarnate' is no different than any other skilled human. A world where people can crush the core of your very being with no effort, kill you with a thought, break you apart on the atomic level, summon the gods themselves, time lock you for eternity, move who knows how many times faster than light, control history itself, and so on.

And yet the hype Yukari's power receives is enormous, even with the presence of all these other crazy powers the average being would have no defense against. Yeah, I know, lolhype, but it's usually valid at least within it's own universe. Why would Yukari's power be so notable with only what it's shown? Why, when it has basically no demonstrated combat applications, would it be considered so terrifying and dangerous? Why would the creator of the series himself put in on such a pedestal after all the other broken powers he's given the rest of the cast? It doesn't make an ounce of sense if you believe she's limited only to what she's shown.

The general idea is no less valid, but it would make more sense to write her off as a character who hasn't shown enough to be accurately gauged.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 19, 2010)

> No point in reflecting the lightning bolt back up to the cloud it came from. Anyway, his point was that everything in Narutoverse had Yin, Yang, or a combination of the two, therefore he claimed it could reflect anything in Narutoverse and, via equivalence, anything in any other verse at all. Your argument is the same.



Mm... nope, the argument still doesn't make any sense. Yin and Yang have no place on the elemental wheel. Nothing is strong or weak against them, which is how the mirror operates. If it had infinite power to cancel out Yin and Yang Orochimaru's hydra would have simultaneously died and poofed out of existence upon touching it, since the Yamata no Jutsu exemplifies a combination of Yin and Yang. That certainly didn't happen, and it wasn't even reflected backwards. It just struck the surface and slid off it, the way it would upon hitting any solid object too strong for it to break through.



> It blocked the Kirin



Did it? Itachi was laying in a crumpled heap after the attack, spewing more blood than ever and missing a whole layer of clothing. Something got through his supposedly perfect defense between the lightning bolt coming down and him face planting the ruins of the mountain/large hill.



> According to your logic she can make it infinite by changing the barrier between finite and infinite.



An interesting thought, though given that the opposite ends of this particular spectrum are infinite by default, wouldn't it take an infinite amount of time or power to slide the boundary all the way to one extreme?



> I only afford that privilege to people I know well. Stick around here a few years and maybe I will.



Fair enough.



> Playing the etiquette card?



Not really. I'm still here, aren't I?



> You can thank Red for that. He wrote them all up before he was banned.



I'm not even sure how he powerscaled Eirin since her power (space manipulation) has nothing at all to do with destructive power. Huh.



> I don't know you, you're new, so how do you expect me to know why you would lie? However, I do know fanboys. Fanboys will do anything to ensure their favorite characters win a match, even if their arguments never convince anyone. That includes blatantly lying. Example.
> 
> I'm not saying you're anything like him, but I have been hardened by years of debating trolls and fanatics, and I naturally suspect people of these kinds of things.



Aren't we past this point already? I already conceded that a cherry picked outlier Hulk would stalemate the Touhouverse due to lack of viable feats. At this point... I guess I'm just musing and debating for it's own sake.



> If one of them can be elevated to that level, then one of them could elevate someone else and double - team the other one.



The power boost a shikigami gets from following the will of it's master makes things like this tricky business. Yukari does tease Aya with an offer to become her shikigami, but it's unsure how that would effect the power Ran draws from her.



> Yet in your previous post, you said you didn't think she could kill them all.



I don't, at least not all at once. Whitebeard wouldn't stand a chance against the rest of the OPverse if they dog piled him. Pain can only dream of soloing the Narutoverse. Being the strongest known character in your series doesn't mean you could effortlessly crush it. 



> Really? That's your argument? If someone shoots down a bird with a gun, and it falls to the ground, does that mean the radius of their attack covers the entire distance from the bird to the ground?



Flawed analogy. Suika scattered the moon and the space it occupied across an area that would have to be hundreds of thousands of miles across, then she exerted her power on all of the fragments and reformed them. In other words, she extended the AoE of her powers to cover the entire blast area, which easily puts her on a planetary level.



> Range, yes. If she could affect the moon from the earth, that's decent range. Not power, though. Master Roshi could do the same thing in Dragonball.



Eh, Roshi needed to use his full power and a lot of people still seem to consider it an outlier.



> That's all that needs to be said in this thread.



Oh well.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 21, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Why, though? That would assume that the rock is somehow immune to changes in the flow of time, and that doesn't seem like a reasonable assumption to make unless there's precedent for it elsewhere, like a mineral that's outside time or something silly like that.



Or it's like one of the many powers in fiction that doesn't work/only works on organic matter or living beings. It's a common trope. Perhaps consider Josuke's stand from JJBA part 4, which can revert things to their previous states, but doesn't work on his own body for a reason that was never explained.



> If you believe the only canon explanation of her powers the boundaries she usually manipulates are basically invisible dividing lines between any two opposing aspects of reality. I can't really help you when it comes to nailing down a more concrete definition with statements like 'Yukari can manipulate boundaries of all sorts' and 'Everything is built upon the existence of boundaries' being thrown around.



Exactly. So if a concrete definition is unavailable, and what we do have is too vague, then we must establish another method of judging her capabilities, and that is going by observed feats.



> There's really no need as the events of the first five games are fairly irrelevant when it comes to Yukari. Shinki might matter if we were discussing the overall standing of the Touhouverse, but if we can't agree on one character we certainly won't agree on a hundred.



You can't just agree to make them canon for one debate and then not for another debate. You have to pick a position and stick with it, otherwise you're cherry - picking.



> The Dragon can leave Gensokyo at will but it does live there some of the time. Iku's SWR profile confirms that it can at least occasionally be found in the clouds:
> 
> 
> 
> Since Iku is one of the Dragon's envoys, it makes sense that it would keep her within easy reach.



Prove said clouds were in Gensokyo.



> I do buy the claim that she can destroy Gensokyo. To deny it would be to say the creator of the series has no idea how powerful his own character is.



Wouldn't be the first time. It's a commonly held (and incorrect) belief that the nuclear weapons we have could destroy the earth Death Star - style, and several authors have carried that misinformation into their fiction.

It's similar to this: 

Often writers are scientifically ignorant, which means that they don't understand what they are really implying when they say something like "X emits as much power as the sun". In a vs. debate, it is up to us to analyze these works as if they were real, and determine what real life consequences they would have, even if the author did not intend those consequences.

Read  and get back to me.



> Thing is, it can be interpreted multiple ways. I choose the 'destroy the boundary and the land mass inside it' way. Anything involving destroying the inhabitants as well would literally mean that Yukari could solo Gensokyo. Yukari _is_ my favorite character in the series and I'd be lying if I said the idea didn't please my inner fanboy, but it makes no sense at all in context. Yukari is established as extremely powerful, probably the most powerful character shown so far, but there's a big leap between that and kill off the rest of the cast with a snap of her fingers, Thanos style.



So then, like I said, she can destroy an area that a few modern military bombers could do without even using nuclear weapons. That's supposed to be impressive?



> There is none



Concession Accepted



> Indeed, but that's a character trait and not a motive. There's a difference between being weird and being a sanity shattering abomination who feels most at home in Azathoth's court. One still needs motives even if they're needlessly cryptic and good at obfuscating them.



So just because you can't think of a motive automatically means there couldn't possibly be one? If she is known to be mysterious and inscrutable, then why do you think you know everything about her motives? You're doing what you keep accusing me of doing: Ignoring the word of god information.



> Why not just widen the first one, if this were the case? Yukari is lazy as can be, so wouldn't it be much simpler to work on an existing hole than make a brand new one?



There are many situations in real life when multiple small holes are superior to one large one. Consider a collander, for example, or the double - slit experiment.



> Even the debate itself has hyperbole. When did 'hard to understand' become 'something incomprehensible by mortal minds'?



I'm not claiming her motives and actions are completely impossible to ever understand, indeed, that would make debating the character absolutely pointless. I'm claiming that you can't make a statement like there could not possibly be any motive for her creating a hole in the barrier.



> Not necessarily, but wouldn't a better analogy be one report that says the battle in question is about to take place and another saying it concluded five minutes ago?



One of those sources would then be wrong, or they could have been talking about different battles. No reason to assume there would be no battle from that.



> But the interpretation is worthless if it contradicts canon. You can't just look at a feat and make up a power to explain how the character is doing it, especially if they already have a canonical ability.



My explanation does not contradict the canonical ability. She was "manipulating the boundary between sunlight and moonlight", meaning she was using light to make it appear like it was day when it was night, or vice-versa.



> Well sure she could bend the light that way if she can control it's path to reflect it off a new moon, but it wouldn't have quite the same effect.



Why not? Again I bring up GetBackers. Masaki Kurusu can manipulate light to make anyone see anything he wants them to see, and they can't tell the difference between it and reality. He does this by manipulating the light that reaches people's eyes. Why could a similar thing not be happening here?



> Like I said, thinning the boundaries of the dimension itself. Imagine holding one of those inflated rubber balls, except it's skin was somehow made as thin as that of a soap bubble. Then you poked a hole in it and it somehow didn't pop. There you go, that's your dimension after Yukari is finished screwing with it's boundaries.



So she has to weaken the dimensional wall first before being able to make a hole. That actually makes the feat _less_ impressive, because weak characters like Inuyasha can do it without having to do the first step.



> So how do you come to the conclusion that the moon Piccolo busted is as durable as the actual one, for example?





I said scientific competence, not scientific facts. The Dragonball moon is the same as a real moon, as far as we know. There's no reason to think it is not the same as the real moon. Whereas the moon Suika destroyed is acknowledged to be a *fake* moon. Therefore, we know it's different from the real moon. It's similar to the Rikudou Sennin argument in Naruto, it's said he created the moon with Chibaku Tensei, and because of that we can't assume it has the same properties as the real moon, because the real moon wasn't created by some guy sealing a monster inside of it and launching it into space.



> Point taken, but this does nothing to eliminate the idea that she would add more power to resist being pulled back together once the process started, unless Yukari reformed her before she could react.



Why is that not possible? You said it happened instantly, right?


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## Endless Mike (Oct 21, 2010)

Part 2 (Continued): 


> Possibly. The moon's fragments reached Gensokyo, after all. Of course, she was interested in throwing feasts within Gensokyo, not across the planet.



So are you changing your argument to say that she only shattered the moon that appears in Gensokyo? Because that would make it even less impressive.



> No, it doesn't, because it's not considered part of Gensokyo and that's the only place she's ever stated to be observing constantly.



Last time I checked, the underground of a place still counts as being part of that place. I can't go into a basement and claim I'm no longer in my country.



> *shrug* Then Yukari is fairly weak by the OBD's standards, or more accurately too reliant on hype and powerscaling due to a lack of combat related feats.



Concession Accepted. Why are you still arguing then?



> Well that certainly explains why Hulk is angry enough to pull off his highest end feats right off the bat. In that case, if Yukari can control her own scale a lot of people are screwed, and if she can't then she can't.



You freely admit not knowing if she can, but you claim she can do so many other things without evidence.



> That would be amusing, but it would also be ridiculous and we both know it.



Your current position is already ridiculous.



> I see your point here, but the 'she can only do what she's shown to be able to do' argument still doesn't work. If we went by this logic her position in her own series simply wouldn't make any sense. Think about it. This is a world in which a 'god incarnate' is no different than any other skilled human. A world where people can crush the core of your very being with no effort, kill you with a thought, break you apart on the atomic level, summon the gods themselves, time lock you for eternity, move who knows how many times faster than light, control history itself, and so on.
> 
> And yet the hype Yukari's power receives is enormous, even with the presence of all these other crazy powers the average being would have no defense against. Yeah, I know, lolhype, but it's usually valid at least within it's own universe. Why would Yukari's power be so notable with only what it's shown? Why, when it has basically no demonstrated combat applications, would it be considered so terrifying and dangerous? Why would the creator of the series himself put in on such a pedestal after all the other broken powers he's given the rest of the cast? It doesn't make an ounce of sense if you believe she's limited only to what she's shown.
> 
> The general idea is no less valid, but it would make more sense to write her off as a character who hasn't shown enough to be accurately gauged.



There's a very, very simple solution to this problem. Can you guess what it is?


*Spoiler*: __ 



Touhouverse is not as strong as it's made out to be, and most of these abilities are hyperbole and idle talk






Eldritch Sukima said:


> Mm... nope, the argument still doesn't make any sense. Yin and Yang have no place on the elemental wheel. Nothing is strong or weak against them, which is how the mirror operates. If it had infinite power to cancel out Yin and Yang Orochimaru's hydra would have simultaneously died and poofed out of existence upon touching it, since the Yamata no Jutsu exemplifies a combination of Yin and Yang.



He didn't hit it with the mirror, he hit it with the sword, which is different.



> That certainly didn't happen, and it wasn't even reflected backwards. It just struck the surface and slid off it, the way it would upon hitting any solid object too strong for it to break through.



Its hyperbole power is the ability to block any attack. It blocked them.



> Did it? Itachi was laying in a crumpled heap after the attack, spewing more blood than ever and missing a whole layer of clothing. Something got through his supposedly perfect defense between the lightning bolt coming down and him face planting the ruins of the mountain/large hill.



Then maybe he just didn't get it up in time to block all of the blast. I haven't actually read that chapter in a long time.



> An interesting thought, though given that the opposite ends of this particular spectrum are infinite by default, wouldn't it take an infinite amount of time or power to slide the boundary all the way to one extreme?



Then she changes the barriers of time and power. This argument is a no - limits fallacy, there's no getting around it.



> I'm not even sure how he powerscaled Eirin since her power (space manipulation) has nothing at all to do with destructive power. Huh.



It's Red, the same guy who thinks Shinki is stronger than multiversal reality warpers.



> Aren't we past this point already? I already conceded that a cherry picked outlier Hulk would stalemate the Touhouverse due to lack of viable feats. At this point... I guess I'm just musing and debating for it's own sake.



I don't like pointless debates, they're a waste of time.



> The power boost a shikigami gets from following the will of it's master makes things like this tricky business. Yukari does tease Aya with an offer to become her shikigami, but it's unsure how that would effect the power Ran draws from her.



She could do it anyway using your no - limits interpretation of her powers.



> I don't, at least not all at once. Whitebeard wouldn't stand a chance against the rest of the OPverse if they dog piled him. Pain can only dream of soloing the Narutoverse. Being the strongest known character in your series doesn't mean you could effortlessly crush it.



Pain isn't the strongest in Narutoverse. And IIRC, many of the Gensokyo characters are , so destroying them and destroying the land are the same thing.



> Flawed analogy. Suika scattered the moon and the space it occupied across an area that would have to be hundreds of thousands of miles across, then she exerted her power on all of the fragments and reformed them. In other words, she extended the AoE of her powers to cover the entire blast area, which easily puts her on a planetary level.



Except that reforming the moon is actually a negative energy event, as it results in a net energy loss. So it's not as impressive as busting it.



> Eh, Roshi needed to use his full power and a lot of people still seem to consider it an outlier.



Less of an outlier than this, since it only happened once, whereas Piccolo blew up the moon casually when he was only a few times stronger than Roshi.

Also, please address my Vulcan analogy.


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## Sasaki Kojirō (Oct 21, 2010)

Potentially amusing thread ruined by magical loli bullshit.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 21, 2010)

Hey, at least I'm getting a good chance to flex my debating muscles


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## Axl Low (Oct 22, 2010)

Darkstalkers has a bunch of retarded people that can make Hulk sit down. 
Although Morrigan is not the brick size or w/e she can put him down pretty good 
IIRC she is FTL and Class 100 as well D:


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## Lucifeller (Oct 23, 2010)

Axl Low said:


> Darkstalkers has a bunch of retarded people that can make Hulk sit down.
> Although Morrigan is not the brick size or w/e she can put him down pretty good
> IIRC she is FTL and Class 100 as well D:



That depends entirely on how pissed Hulk is. Make him pissed enough, and he does to her what he did to Onslaught.

That's the real problem with any fight involving Hulk - since his strength literally has no upper limit, he can shit on anyone and anything given enough frothing rage.

Unless it's World War Hulk, who seems to have 'insane murderous rage' as his DEFAULT MINDSET... or the Maestro, who is Hulk on crack thanks to being heavily irradiated and completely insane... or Hulk 2099, who apparently starts at "twist The Thing like a pretzel" level strength by default but increases it more slowly... jesus, there's too many Hulks.


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## Axl Low (Oct 23, 2010)

Lucifeller said:


> That depends entirely on how pissed Hulk is. Make him pissed enough, and he does to her what he did to Onslaught.
> 
> That's the real problem with any fight involving Hulk - since his strength literally has no upper limit, he can shit on anyone and anything given enough frothing rage.
> 
> Unless it's World War Hulk, who seems to have 'insane murderous rage' as his DEFAULT MINDSET... or the Maestro, who is Hulk on crack thanks to being heavily irradiated and completely insane... or Hulk 2099, who apparently starts at "twist The Thing like a pretzel" level strength by default but increases it more slowly... jesus, there's too many Hulks.



Noted.
But really alot of this boils down to just how pissed is the HULK
so it can go both ways
But really Characters from like Tales of Series aren't taking down Hulk 
Neither is Potemkin or Tager


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## Kurou (Oct 23, 2010)

Axl Low said:


> Noted.
> But really alot of this boils down to just how pissed is the HULK
> so it can go both ways
> But really Characters from like Tales of Series aren't taking down Hulk
> Neither is Potemkin or Tager



But it would still be awesome to watch.


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## zenieth (Oct 23, 2010)

real Soviet Damage


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## Lucifeller (Oct 23, 2010)

GOLDEN TAGER would win. Because he's awesome like that. :ho

Also because if he lost, Kokonoe would just upgrade him by strapping some kind of unholy contraption to his **GIGANTIC TAGER!!**, as we all know. :ho


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 24, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Or it's like one of the many powers in fiction that doesn't work/only works on organic matter or living beings. It's a common trope. Perhaps consider Josuke's stand from JJBA part 4, which can revert things to their previous states, but doesn't work on his own body for a reason that was never explained.



The default assumption should be based on the nature of the ability in question, though, shouldn't it? If a character can make someone spontaneously explode by manipulating their cells in a certain way, we probably aren't going to assume that the ability can affect a nonliving object that doesn't have any cells. On the other hand, if a character's power is the ability to change matter between it's different states, we probably aren't going to assume that a living being is somehow exempt from having the matter it's composed of liquefied. Not unless it's stated or shown to not work on living matter for one reason or another.

In the case of a high level ability like time manipulation, it makes sense to assume that being immune is a matter of being an exception to the rule, rather than any random object being immune until demonstrated otherwise. Wouldn't you agree?



> Exactly. So if a concrete definition is unavailable, and what we do have is too vague, then we must establish another method of judging her capabilities, and that is going by observed feats.



Which certainly sounds logical, but what do her feats tell us, exactly? Earlier you mentioned interpolation based on feats, but what connections can we draw between controlling the essence of a season, manipulating dimensional boundaries, making a reflection real, freezing the night, reassembling someone on a microscopic level, trapping spirits in a television set, controlling light, and so on? Normally this would simply be an assortment of supernatural powers, but we know they're simply multiple facets of a single ability, and the feats themselves don't tell us anything more about the boundaries she manipulates or how she manipulates them.

How do you interpolate _or_ extrapolate anything about her capabilities from that? Seems to me like the only thing her feats do is set an absolute bottom limit on power and influence for a casual Yukari, and even then it's based on interpretation.



> You can't just agree to make them canon for one debate and then not for another debate. You have to pick a position and stick with it, otherwise you're cherry - picking.



My position is and always has been that the games and official written works are canon. Alice claims to have met Reimu before in PCB. Outside of Mystic Square, there is no recorded instance of that ever happening. Yuka speaks of Reimu and Marisa like she hasn't seen them in a while, and the only time she's known to have met them prior to that is LLS. Makai reappeared in UFO, even if Shinki herself didn't.



> Prove said clouds were in Gensokyo.



Iku lives in Gensokyo and it's never stated that she can come and go as she pleases, at least not that I know of. Seems like a reasonable conclusion.



> Wouldn't be the first time. It's a commonly held (and incorrect) belief that the nuclear weapons we have could destroy the earth Death Star - style, and several authors have carried that misinformation into their fiction.
> 
> It's similar to this:
> 
> ...



I'm afraid I don't really see the relevance here. Maybe we could do this with other feats and abilities of the series, but in this case there is nothing to analyze, just a statement from ZUN that Yukari is powerful enough to casually annihilate his series' main setting. We can't use this method to call BS on an 'X can destroy Y' statement unless the power needed to destroy Y is quantifiable and doesn't match up with the amount of power the author is suggesting.



> So then, like I said, she can destroy an area that a few modern military bombers could do without even using nuclear weapons. That's supposed to be impressive?



I didn't know modern bombers loaded with conventional weapons were mountain busters. How many runs would it take them to destroy a mountain slightly taller than Fuji?



> There are many situations in real life when multiple small holes are superior to one large one. Consider a collander, for example, or the double - slit experiment.



Very true, but without knowing the purpose of these alleged twin holes we can't say that it would be the case here.



> I'm not claiming her motives and actions are completely impossible to ever understand, indeed, that would make debating the character absolutely pointless. I'm claiming that you can't make a statement like there could not possibly be any motive for her creating a hole in the barrier.



Sure, I can agree with that. We can, however, deem it more unlikely than the alternative given the other character traits she's been attributed with as well as other info like the properties of the boundary itself and the fact that checking it for holes or other problems is on Ran's chore list.



> One of those sources would then be wrong, or they could have been talking about different battles. No reason to assume there would be no battle from that.



How would you determine which source is incorrect, though? Only Yukari's pre-fight statement implies a limitation, so if we're going to use it as evidence of a limit (Albeit an unquantifiable one), don't we need some way of establishing it as the more credible of the two?



> My explanation does not contradict the canonical ability. She was "manipulating the boundary between sunlight and moonlight", meaning she was using light to make it appear like it was day when it was night, or vice-versa.



Right, my bad, I was thinking more of the brightening the moon one with that statement. I think we're in agreement, then, that controlling the amount of light in the sky is a sensible explanation for what manipulating this particular boundary does.



> Why not? Again I bring up GetBackers. Masaki Kurusu can manipulate light to make anyone see anything he wants them to see, and they can't tell the difference between it and reality. He does this by manipulating the light that reaches people's eyes. Why could a similar thing not be happening here?



Because in this case we've already been given an explanation for how it works. It relies on the moon's reflectivity. So to make a new moon appear as bright as the sun in that manner, you'd have to do two things: make the moon fully reflective and manipulate the path of the sunlight so that it can reach the moon's surface at a time it normally wouldn't be able to. There's really no reason to believe it's an illusion unless you believe Yukari was lying about it for no reason.

Boundaries work two ways, and if the reflective moon trick is how it turns night into day, or more specifically night into noon, I can only assume that the opposite would be bending the sun's light away from the Earth, to make it look like it's not emitting light at all. Thus, noon into night.



> So she has to weaken the dimensional wall first before being able to make a hole. That actually makes the feat _less_ impressive, because weak characters like Inuyasha can do it without having to do the first step.



Sorry, poor wording on my part. No order on what she did was ever given. She could have punched the hole before thinning the dimensional walls, or she could have done both simultaneously.



> I said scientific competence, not scientific facts. The Dragonball moon is the same as a real moon, as far as we know. There's no reason to think it is not the same as the real moon. Whereas the moon Suika destroyed is acknowledged to be a *fake* moon. Therefore, we know it's different from the real moon. It's similar to the Rikudou Sennin argument in Naruto, it's said he created the moon with Chibaku Tensei, and because of that we can't assume it has the same properties as the real moon, because the real moon wasn't created by some guy sealing a monster inside of it and launching it into space.



Bit of a problem here. The real moon in Touhou is _not_ the same as the actual moon. It has a breathable atmosphere, as well as oceans, to say nothing of the residents. Just looking at it can drive humans insane and/or kill them, and it's stated to have stronger gravity, so it clearly has different properties. Meanwhile, the reflected moon matches up pretty nicely with what we know of the actual moon. It's the same lifeless rock humanity has been landing on and exploring. The only thing that would indicate different properties is Suika stating that it's only a reflection of the true moon, and that's only if you take it literally, but how can you when this 'reflection' clearly has a physical presence?


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 24, 2010)

> Why is that not possible? You said it happened instantly, right?



Indeed, but instantly becomes relative when dealing with superhuman characters. Canonically Suika's beaten Youmu, Marisa, Remilia, and Aya, who are among the fastest characters in the series, and she beat the former three so easily she found it boring. That's indication of some pretty impressive reflexes, even if her fighting style doesn't involve much high speed movement. It's possible that Yukari reformed her before she could react, but if she did it just becomes more of a speed feat than a power feat, since it means Yukari reassembled a Gensokyo sized cloud of invisibly fine mist with at _least_ massively hypersonic reflexes before it could do anything to resist.



> So are you changing your argument to say that she only shattered the moon that appears in Gensokyo? Because that would make it even less impressive.



Not at all. Altitude wise, Gensokyo ends where Heaven begins, and space is even higher than that. To shatter something in space she'd be exerting her powers outside Gensokyo by default.



> Last time I checked, the underground of a place still counts as being part of that place. I can't go into a basement and claim I'm no longer in my country.



Except when it doesn't, which happens to be the case here. It's a plot point that aside from Suika nobody has seen an oni in Gensokyo for ages. There's an entire city of them underground, and oni certainly aren't the shy type, so clearly it's not considered part of Gensokyo.



> Concession Accepted. Why are you still arguing then?



Good question. I'm currently sick, so my ways to pass the time are somewhat limited, and like I said I enjoy debating in general.



> You freely admit not knowing if she can, but you claim she can do so many other things without evidence.



One could make the argument that personal limitations are a different form of boundary and may thus have different properties compared to the two or three types she's been shown manipulating thus far. On the other hand, again, we have ZUN stating that she can manipulate boundaries of any kind. So what do you do? Do you claim the creator of the series is not the authority when it comes to his own characters, or do you admit the possibility that she can do it and just bar it from debates because the practicality of it is based on speculation?



> Your current position is already ridiculous.



Maybe so. I'm sure we'll find out eventually, assuming ZUN gives us something concrete before drinking himself to death and/or enlightenment. If it turns out I'm wrong that will be the end of that, won't it?



> There's a very, very simple solution to this problem. Can you guess what it is?
> 
> Touhouverse is not as strong as it's made out to be, and most of these abilities are hyperbole and idle talk.



Easy to claim, not so easy to prove, but how strong you think the Touhouverse is doesn't mean anything in regards to this particular point. Shown and stated feats from multiple characters are easily more impressive than your interpretation of Yukari's feats. If we assume that she's limited only to what she's shown then there would be nothing exceptional or dangerous about her powers, and thus no reason for everyone to hold them in such high regard. There is zero justification for Yukari's hype and reputation if most of the top tiers could handle her with ease, and they could if we limit her to showings since she hasn't used boundary manipulation for combat very much.

In other words no, that's not a solution to the problem at all.



> He didn't hit it with the mirror, he hit it with the sword, which is different.



Link removed
Link removed

He hit it with both. The fact that the sword is the only thing that causes any damage immediately debunks any infinite Yin/Yang nullification powers.



> Its hyperbole power is the ability to block any attack. It blocked them.



No, it's hyperbole power is the ability to _reflect_ any attack. You know, like a mirror. Zetsu states this, as do both translations of Susano'o's databook entry that I've seen.



> Then maybe he just didn't get it up in time to block all of the blast. I haven't actually read that chapter in a long time.



We don't actually see what transpires since there's a giant lightning bolt in the way. Itachi simply mentions that if he hadn't used Susano'o he would have been obliterated, which also raises the question of why Sasuke isn't the least bit surprised at the sight of his very much intact body afterwords. Regardless, as you might imagine most Itachi fans like to claim he wasn't using a full powered Susano'o to block Kirin while providing no evidence to support it. 



> Then she changes the barriers of time and power. This argument is a no - limits fallacy, there's no getting around it.



I'd imagine making infinite time finite would require infinite power as well, and making finite power infinite would require an infinite amount of time, regardless of the fact that she's warping reality to do it. Unless she can just ignore time/power requirements completely.



> It's Red, the same guy who thinks Shinki is stronger than multiversal reality warpers.



Well that sums it up nicely. 



> I don't like pointless debates, they're a waste of time.



It's not like I'm forcing you to type up responses at gunpoint. If you want to stop, just say so.



> She could do it anyway using your no - limits interpretation of her powers.



Perhaps she could. The mechanics of a shikigami contract haven't been elaborated on very much.



> Pain isn't the strongest in Narutoverse. And IIRC, many of the Gensokyo characters are , so destroying them and destroying the land are the same thing.



Pain is easily the most powerful character seen in action thus far, and no, that's not really accurate. Fairies are referred to as embodiments of nature and immediately resurrect upon dying. You could interpret that to mean that removing what they embody would kill them for good, but there's no way to quantify how far you'd need to go. They're small fry anyway. Most gods are tied to faith, and could be defeated indirectly by depriving them of it. Without any faith they would be rendered powerless, which is supposedly as good as death for a god. Still, this would involve killing every being that worships them, not destroying the land they inhabit. As far as I'm aware youkai have no special connection to the environments they live in, or at least not a symbiotic bond of that level.



> Except that reforming the moon is actually a negative energy event, as it results in a net energy loss. So it's not as impressive as busting it.



Indeed, since gravity would pitch in to help at some point. It still demonstrates that she can extend her influence across a planetary range, though. Reversing what she had done would also involve putting the space she shattered back together like some kind of cosmic jigsaw puzzle.



> Less of an outlier than this, since it only happened once, whereas Piccolo blew up the moon casually when he was only a few times stronger than Roshi.



I'm not sure you can really call this an outlier since it was a casual feat and we've never seen any serious feats from Suika that would discredit her being that powerful. I don't really consider Roshi's feat an outlier either, since Piccolo repeats it later at a level that shouldn't be too much higher than Buff Roshi with the Kamehameha boost, but a lot of other people seem to take his mountain buster as being more consistent given that Piccolo Daimao only city busted with his strongest attack. I write that off as the Earth having extremely thick plot armor, but maybe that's just me.



> Also, please address my Vulcan analogy.



Sure. It would depend on how his power worked. If he was controlling some universal constant tied to every form of energy? Certainly, my default assumption would be that he could manipulate energy of any kind to a certain extent unless, as with the reality bomb analogy, there was something unique about it or his powers were being countered by someone else.

If I had to pick a comic character to compare Yukari's powers to I'd probably go with Jamie Braddock. Regardless of what Yukari's limitations are, the method Braddock uses to reality warp is fairly similar to the way I envision her powers working, just replace 'infinite quantum superstrings composing all of reality' with 'enormous web of boundaries defining all of reality'.


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## zenieth (Oct 24, 2010)

EM, stop being a masochist.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 24, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> The default assumption should be based on the nature of the ability in question, though, shouldn't it? If a character can make someone spontaneously explode by manipulating their cells in a certain way, we probably aren't going to assume that the ability can affect a nonliving object that doesn't have any cells. On the other hand, if a character's power is the ability to change matter between it's different states, we probably aren't going to assume that a living being is somehow exempt from having the matter it's composed of liquefied. Not unless it's stated or shown to not work on living matter for one reason or another.



Transmuting a rock is different from transmuting a person. Assuming something will work in a combat situation when it has not been shown to do so is a fallacy.



> In the case of a high level ability like time manipulation, it makes sense to assume that being immune is a matter of being an exception to the rule, rather than any random object being immune until demonstrated otherwise. Wouldn't you agree?



So you buy the theory that Orihime from bleach can reject people out of existence? Because that has never been shown and isn't accepted in the OBD.



> Which certainly sounds logical, but what do her feats tell us, exactly? Earlier you mentioned interpolation based on feats, but what connections can we draw between controlling the essence of a season, manipulating dimensional boundaries, making a reflection real, freezing the night, reassembling someone on a microscopic level, trapping spirits in a television set, controlling light, and so on? Normally this would simply be an assortment of supernatural powers, but we know they're simply multiple facets of a single ability, and the feats themselves don't tell us anything more about the boundaries she manipulates or how she manipulates them.



So your solution is to simply make up new powers for her she hasn't shown. I fail to see how that is logical.



> How do you interpolate _or_ extrapolate anything about her capabilities from that? Seems to me like the only thing her feats do is set an absolute bottom limit on power and influence for a casual Yukari, and even then it's based on interpretation.



You can say, for example, that she can alter the path of light within a large range for one of them.



> My position is and always has been that the games and official written works are canon. Alice claims to have met Reimu before in PCB.



Then Reimu says she doesn't remember.



> Iku lives in Gensokyo and it's never stated that she can come and go as she pleases, at least not that I know of. Seems like a reasonable conclusion.



So any character not directly stated to be able to "come and go as they please" is assumed to be trapped in Gensokyo? Makes defeating them that much easier then.



> I'm afraid I don't really see the relevance here. Maybe we could do this with other feats and abilities of the series, but in this case there is nothing to analyze, just a statement from ZUN that Yukari is powerful enough to casually annihilate his series' main setting. We can't use this method to call BS on an 'X can destroy Y' statement unless the power needed to destroy Y is quantifiable and doesn't match up with the amount of power the author is suggesting.



So the Dragon would not care if Gensokyo was destroyed, even though he helped create it?



> I didn't know modern bombers loaded with conventional weapons were mountain busters. How many runs would it take them to destroy a mountain slightly taller than Fuji?



Stop arbitrarily defining destruction, it was never stated to mean raze the land completely flat, simply burning it all off and rendering it uninhabitable would do. And even if you interpret it that way, it's still not all that impressive.



> Very true, but without knowing the purpose of these alleged twin holes we can't say that it would be the case here.



We can't say it can't be either, and thus your argument of it not making sense is refuted.



> Sure, I can agree with that. We can, however, deem it more unlikely than the alternative given the other character traits she's been attributed with as well as other info like the properties of the boundary itself and the fact that checking it for holes or other problems is on Ran's chore list.



Wait a second. You earlier argued that the boundary is part of Gensokyo. You're also saying Yukari is omniscient in Gensokyo, so then why would she have to send someone else off to check for holes? Wouldn't she automatically know about them herself?



> How would you determine which source is incorrect, though? Only Yukari's pre-fight statement implies a limitation, so if we're going to use it as evidence of a limit (Albeit an unquantifiable one), don't we need some way of establishing it as the more credible of the two?



Not really, if we take the interpretation that she was referring to two holes.



> Because in this case we've already been given an explanation for how it works. It relies on the moon's reflectivity. So to make a new moon appear as bright as the sun in that manner, you'd have to do two things: make the moon fully reflective and manipulate the path of the sunlight so that it can reach the moon's surface at a time it normally wouldn't be able to. There's really no reason to believe it's an illusion unless you believe Yukari was lying about it for no reason.



Why would you need to alter the properties of the moon if you could control the course of sunlight completely?



> Sorry, poor wording on my part. No order on what she did was ever given. She could have punched the hole before thinning the dimensional walls, or she could have done both simultaneously.



Was one required to do the other?



> Bit of a problem here. The real moon in Touhou is _not_ the same as the actual moon. It has a breathable atmosphere, as well as oceans, to say nothing of the residents. Just looking at it can drive humans insane and/or kill them, and it's stated to have stronger gravity, so it clearly has different properties.



Different properties than the fake moon. In fact, this supports my argument. The Touhou "real moon" has the same gravity as the IRL real moon, and the fake moon has less gravity, therefore less mass and durability.



> Meanwhile, the reflected moon matches up pretty nicely with what we know of the actual moon. It's the same lifeless rock humanity has been landing on and exploring. The only thing that would indicate different properties is Suika stating that it's only a reflection of the true moon, and that's only if you take it literally, but how can you when this 'reflection' clearly has a physical presence?



There is no evidence it has the same properties as the real moon. If it did have different properties, the humans would have no way of knowing, as they would lack anything to compare it to, as the fake moon has always been the moon they have been seeing and studying.



Eldritch Sukima said:


> Indeed, but instantly becomes relative when dealing with superhuman characters. Canonically Suika's beaten Youmu, Marisa, Remilia, and Aya, who are among the fastest characters in the series, and she beat the former three so easily she found it boring. That's indication of some pretty impressive reflexes, even if her fighting style doesn't involve much high speed movement. It's possible that Yukari reformed her before she could react, but if she did it just becomes more of a speed feat than a power feat, since it means Yukari reassembled a Gensokyo sized cloud of invisibly fine mist with at _least_ massively hypersonic reflexes before it could do anything to resist.



Or just teleported all of the pieces back together. BTW, all that powerscaling means nothing unless you can list actual speed feats for them.



> Not at all. Altitude wise, Gensokyo ends where Heaven begins, and space is even higher than that. To shatter something in space she'd be exerting her powers outside Gensokyo by default.



Wait, let me get this straight:

Space
------------
Heaven
------------
Gensokyo
------------

That's ridiculous. Heaven must be a pretty small place then.



> Except when it doesn't, which happens to be the case here. It's a plot point that aside from Suika nobody has seen an oni in Gensokyo for ages. There's an entire city of them underground, and oni certainly aren't the shy type, so clearly it's not considered part of Gensokyo.



So if her powers are defined by arbitrary boundaries, someone could just say that their house was a different country and then she wouldn't be able to see inside it?



> Good question. I'm currently sick, so my ways to pass the time are somewhat limited, and like I said I enjoy debating in general.



Well I hate debating when the debate is pointless, as you've effectively already conceded.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 24, 2010)

> One could make the argument that personal limitations are a different form of boundary and may thus have different properties compared to the two or three types she's been shown manipulating thus far. On the other hand, again, we have ZUN stating that she can manipulate boundaries of any kind. So what do you do? Do you claim the creator of the series is not the authority when it comes to his own characters, or do you admit the possibility that she can do it and just bar it from debates because the practicality of it is based on speculation?



If you're trying to do the latter, you're failing, as you're claiming she can do many things based on nothing but speculation.



> Maybe so. I'm sure we'll find out eventually, assuming ZUN gives us something concrete before drinking himself to death and/or enlightenment. If it turns out I'm wrong that will be the end of that, won't it?



Unfortunately, we don't have the luxury of waiting for that if we want to debate this in the OBD. So we must come to a consensus now.



> Easy to claim, not so easy to prove, but how strong you think the Touhouverse is doesn't mean anything in regards to this particular point. Shown and stated feats from multiple characters are easily more impressive than your interpretation of Yukari's feats. If we assume that she's limited only to what she's shown then there would be nothing exceptional or dangerous about her powers, and thus no reason for everyone to hold them in such high regard. There is zero justification for Yukari's hype and reputation if most of the top tiers could handle her with ease, and they could if we limit her to showings since she hasn't used boundary manipulation for combat very much.
> 
> In other words no, that's not a solution to the problem at all.



You just restated your initial premise without even addressing my argument. Who says they could handle her with ease? I don't buy them being all that strong either. That's the whole point. Show me feats from people weaker than Yukari that would support this interpretation.



> *snip*
> 
> He hit it with both. The fact that the sword is the only thing that causes any damage immediately debunks any infinite Yin/Yang nullification powers.



Um, no it doesn't. It's a defensive artifact, not an offensive one. The claim isn't that it will destroy anything it touches, but that it will bock any attack.



> No, it's hyperbole power is the ability to _reflect_ any attack. You know, like a mirror. Zetsu states this, as do both translations of Susano'o's databook entry that I've seen.



Again, pointless to reflect lightning back up to a cloud, and Orochimaru was hurt when he attacked it, meaning his own kinetic energy was reflected back at him (Newton's third law and all).



> We don't actually see what transpires since there's a giant lightning bolt in the way. Itachi simply mentions that if he hadn't used Susano'o he would have been obliterated, which also raises the question of why Sasuke isn't the least bit surprised at the sight of his very much intact body afterwords. Regardless, as you might imagine most Itachi fans like to claim he wasn't using a full powered Susano'o to block Kirin while providing no evidence to support it.



Just like you claim Yukari wasn't creating a hole in the boundary with no evidence to support it. 



> I'd imagine making infinite time finite would require infinite power as well, and making finite power infinite would require an infinite amount of time, regardless of the fact that she's warping reality to do it. Unless she can just ignore time/power requirements completely.



She could if her power works the way you say it does.



> It's not like I'm forcing you to type up responses at gunpoint. If you want to stop, just say so.



No, because that would be seen as a concession, and I am not wrong here.



> Perhaps she could. The mechanics of a shikigami contract haven't been elaborated on very much.



Concession Accepted.



> Pain is easily the most powerful character seen in action thus far



Madara is pretty obviously stronger than him by powerscaling.



> and no, that's not really accurate. Fairies are referred to as embodiments of nature and immediately resurrect upon dying. You could interpret that to mean that removing what they embody would kill them for good, but there's no way to quantify how far you'd need to go. They're small fry anyway. Most gods are tied to faith, and could be defeated indirectly by depriving them of it. Without any faith they would be rendered powerless, which is supposedly as good as death for a god. Still, this would involve killing every being that worships them, not destroying the land they inhabit. As far as I'm aware youkai have no special connection to the environments they live in, or at least not a symbiotic bond of that level.



Yet earlier you claimed they can't leave.



> Indeed, since gravity would pitch in to help at some point. It still demonstrates that she can extend her influence across a planetary range, though. Reversing what she had done would also involve putting the space she shattered back together like some kind of cosmic jigsaw puzzle.



But it's not as impressive as projecting moonbusting power across that distance.



> I'm not sure you can really call this an outlier since it was a casual feat and we've never seen any serious feats from Suika that would discredit her being that powerful. I don't really consider Roshi's feat an outlier either, since Piccolo repeats it later at a level that shouldn't be too much higher than Buff Roshi with the Kamehameha boost, but a lot of other people seem to take his mountain buster as being more consistent given that Piccolo Daimao only city busted with his strongest attack. I write that off as the Earth having extremely thick plot armor, but maybe that's just me.



Then explain all of the other characters with weak powers and no impressive feats beating her.



> Sure. It would depend on how his power worked. If he was controlling some universal constant tied to every form of energy?



He's a mutant. Specifically, an Omega level mutant, who are defined as having unlimited potential.



> Certainly, my default assumption would be that he could manipulate energy of any kind to a certain extent unless, as with the reality bomb analogy, there was something unique about it or his powers were being countered by someone else.
> 
> If I had to pick a comic character to compare Yukari's powers to I'd probably go with Jamie Braddock. Regardless of what Yukari's limitations are, the method Braddock uses to reality warp is fairly similar to the way I envision her powers working, just replace 'infinite quantum superstrings composing all of reality' with 'enormous web of boundaries defining all of reality'.



Difference is that Braddock actually has feats of universal and multiversal reality warping.


----------



## Weather (Oct 24, 2010)

Correcting something here



> Then Reimu says she doesn't remember.



Reimu Couldn't even remember Alice in the Extra Stage of Mystic Square. (Even though they fought on history mode)



> Alice
> 久しぶりね。
> It's been a while.
> Reimu
> ...



But she clearly remembers Yuka in PoFD



> Yuuka
> あの時は放っておいたら
> 元に戻ったんだったっけ？
> Do you think that ignoring the events back then,
> ...



Also...



> Wait, let me get this straight:
> 
> Space
> ------------
> ...



It's not that big actually. (Though is conmposed of varius realms and the only one that canonically appears is Bhava'Agra.)
Also is not that high either, Everyone in SWR reaches it by climbing the Youkai Mountain.
Wich is actually the Yatsugatake Mountain range from the distant past (And the highest peak there is 2,899 meters)

Also most of SWR final battles take place almost in space:


> 天地「世界を見下ろす遥かなる大地よ」
> Heaven & Earth "Land that Oversees the Distant World Below"
> 使用者　比那名居天子
> User: Tenshi Hinanai
> ...



Here is the image


By the way: were would you rank Touhou? HST level? Above? Below?
Just out of curiosity.


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 24, 2010)

I'll get to Mike's post this evening, but...



Weather said:


> Wich is actually the Yatsugatake Mountain range from the distant past (And the highest peak there is 2,899 meters)



Keine expands on this in chapter four of CiLR. The original Yatsugatake was broken apart by Princess Sakuya because she didn't like the idea of a mountain being taller than her own (Mt. Fuji). She also suggests that Youkai Mountain is the original form of Yatsugatake, before Princess Sakuya destroyed it, which would make it slightly taller than Fuji (3776 meters).


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 24, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> I'll get to Mike's post this evening



I await with baited breath 



> Keine expands on this in chapter four of CiLR. The original Yatsugatake was broken apart by Princess Sakuya because she didn't like the idea of a mountain being taller than her own (Mt. Fuji). She also suggests that Youkai Mountain is the original form of Yatsugatake, before Princess Sakuya destroyed it, which would make it slightly taller than Fuji (3776 meters).



Who the fuck cares? Hulk has planetary - level strength feats.


----------



## Weather (Oct 24, 2010)

EM can you answer my question?

Where would you Rank Touhou? HST Level? Above? Below?


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 24, 2010)

Weather said:


> EM can you answer my question?
> 
> Where would you Rank Touhou? HST Level? Above? Below?



Above HST for sure


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 24, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Transmuting a rock is different from transmuting a person. Assuming something will work in a combat situation when it has not been shown to do so is a fallacy.



Indeed, but that would depend on a limitation of the power itself, like the user needing to know the molecular structure of what's he's changing to use his power on it. If we're simply presented with an ability that is described as changing matter between different states and it's user has never had any need to use it on a living creature, is it logical to assume it doesn't work on them when there's no known reason why it wouldn't?



> So you buy the theory that Orihime from bleach can reject people out of existence? Because that has never been shown and isn't accepted in the OBD.



I wouldn't dismiss it as being beyond the scope of her powers, no. I would argue, though, that Orihime has yet to realize her full potential. She's already shown that she can reject someone getting their upper half vaporized. If her power is indeed rejection of events and as godlike as Aizen suggests it is, why could she not also reject the act of Ulquiorra releasing Murcielago? Undoing his transformation would be no different than her 'healing', which basically resets the target back to the way they were before being injured.

The best reason I can think of is that she simply doesn't realize she could do something like that with her powers, just as she didn't realize she could restore Tsubaki despite not having his remains. That, combined with the fact that the potency of her powers is stated to vary based on her mindset, leads me to believe that most of her limitations are more mental than physical.



> So any character not directly stated to be able to "come and go as they please" is assumed to be trapped in Gensokyo? Makes defeating them that much easier then.



The boundary is there for a reason. If anyone could pass through it whenever they wanted it wouldn't be very useful, would it?



> So the Dragon would not care if Gensokyo was destroyed, even though he helped create it?



Again I don't really see the relevance. If you interpret ZUN's statement to include Gensokyo's residents Yukari is powerful enough to kill the Dragon so it's thoughts on the matter don't mean anything. If you interpret it differently they still don't mean anything as ZUN only stated that Yukari had the power to casually annihilate Gensokyo, not that she would succeed if she attempted it.



> Stop arbitrarily defining destruction, it was never stated to mean raze the land completely flat, simply burning it all off and rendering it uninhabitable would do. And even if you interpret it that way, it's still not all that impressive.



I consider 'annihilation' to be pretty thorough on the destruction scale, don't you?



> We can't say it can't be either, and thus your argument of it not making sense is refuted.



Fair enough. However, this requires us to assume that she had a valid motive, that she was creating two holes, and that whatever she was doing needed two holes to be effective. In the alternative, we only have to assume she was BSing to rile up Reimu.



> Wait a second. You earlier argued that the boundary is part of Gensokyo. You're also saying Yukari is omniscient in Gensokyo, so then why would she have to send someone else off to check for holes? Wouldn't she automatically know about them herself?



She doesn't have to, she chooses to because she's lazy and has a shikigami who can do her work for her. Ran takes care of all the things Yukari herself used to handle. This includes checking the border for problems and presumably fixing it when such problems arise as well.



> Why would you need to alter the properties of the moon if you could control the course of sunlight completely?



The assumption could be scientific ignorance on my part. Would sufficiently increasing the amount of sunlight that strikes the moon make it appear as bright as the sun, or would you have to increase the surface's ability to reflect light to achieve that effect?



> Was one required to do the other?



I don't recall anything of the sort being mentioned, no.



> Different properties than the fake moon. In fact, this supports my argument. The Touhou "real moon" has the same gravity as the IRL real moon, and the fake moon has less gravity, therefore less mass and durability.



Why are you assuming that it has the same gravity as the actual moon? I might be missing some offhand statement somewhere, but I don't remember any character stating that they felt lighter than usual or that the gravity was off when they were on the true moon in SSiB. Likewise, I'm not aware of any moon based character having difficulty adjusting to Earth's gravity.



> There is no evidence it has the same properties as the real moon. If it did have different properties, the humans would have no way of knowing, as they would lack anything to compare it to, as the fake moon has always been the moon they have been seeing and studying.



There's really nothing that suggests otherwise, though, save for Suika's statement that it's a reflection of the true moon, and we can't take that literally or it wouldn't physically exist.



> Or just teleported all of the pieces back together. BTW, all that powerscaling means nothing unless you can list actual speed feats for them.



Problem is, if she simply teleported the pieces back together, how did she know exactly how to reassemble Suika on the microscopic level?

As far as speed goes, SSiB already covers half the list. Remilia circling the moon happened between Marisa's fight and her own, so we already know it couldn't have taken very long or Reimu would have fought instead. If it took a few minutes she has triple digit mach speed, and even if it took an hour she'd still be a little over Mach 8.

Marisa avoiding her own laser reflected back at her speaks for itself. I already know what your argument against this one is, and no, Marisa's movement when firing the second half of her Double Spark doesn't mean anything. Earlier in the fight Yorihime somehow slowed down Marisa's barrage until the projectiles weren't moving at all. The fact that the first beam hovered right in front of her for four pages while she and Marisa did a few other things surely isn't a coincidence, nor is the fact that both beams reached her at the same time despite being fired in succession.

The only powerscaling involved is Aya being stated to be faster than Remilia, and Aya's own thoughts on Youmu's bursts of speed:



> All in one moment... I think she moved too fast for my eyes to follow. Seems like it'll be impossible to catch her in that moment.



Which would make Youmu the fastest pure speed character in the series, since Kaguya acting within a femtosecond is considered similar to time manipulation.



> So if her powers are defined by arbitrary boundaries, someone could just say that their house was a different country and then she wouldn't be able to see inside it?



If you assume it's a physical limitation and not just Yukari choosing only to watch Gensokyo.



> Well I hate debating when the debate is pointless, as you've effectively already conceded.



Indeed I have, and like I said, nobody is forcing you to continue. Or me, for that matter.



> If you're trying to do the latter, you're failing, as you're claiming she can do many things based on nothing but speculation.



I'm asking you what you think is the more appropriate choice between the two. On that note, there's a significant difference between things I believe a character to be capable of and things that would be considered fair game in an OBD debate. I'm more than happy to stick with the 'Character X can't do anything they haven't shown the ability to do' logic for the sake of a debate, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'd agree with it when discussing the character or their potential in a more casual setting.



> Unfortunately, we don't have the luxury of waiting for that if we want to debate this in the OBD. So we must come to a consensus now.



Okay, then what about this: Yukari's power has been deemed too vague to quantify. Since the extent of her power and her limits are based almost completely on speculation, she should be kept out of the OBD until a more concrete explanation of her ability has been given. Failing that, for the sake of debate she should not be assumed to be capable of anything that is not a logical extension of the feats and abilities she's shown.

How's that?


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 25, 2010)

> You just restated your initial premise without even addressing my argument. Who says they could handle her with ease? I don't buy them being all that strong either. That's the whole point. Show me feats from people weaker than Yukari that would support this interpretation.



Off the top of my head:

-Shinki created her own universe, which is well beyond anything Yukari has done. That's the most impressive feat in Touhou period, actually. 

-Eirin sealed off the entire planet, and stated she had even stronger seals. She's also confirmed to have adjusted the moon's rotational/orbital periods, and is probably the one who made the fake moon in IN. She's stated to hold back quite a bit, too, so she's a very casual moon/planet level character.

-We've already covered Suika. Casual moon/space buster and can just as easily put them both back together, all from a couple hundred thousand miles away. She's a youkai, and would spit in the face of Akyu stating that Yukari was the strongest youkai if we went purely by showings.

-The legend where Amaterasu basically turned off the sun by hiding away from the world actually happened in Touhou, so Yorihime being able to summon Amaterasu and use her powers puts her at star level. Then there's the countless other gods she can invoke, enough for her to estimate that she could win almost forty million battles in a row if she only used one or two per fight.

-Toyohime's fan can instantly disintegrate an area the size of the bamboo forest (at least a few kilometers across judging by IN) at the atomic level. In CiLR she demonstrates the ability to transform the true moon into the reflected one. It's not stated precisely how it works, but it looks like a pretty legitimate moon level feat.

-Reimu can phase out of reality itself, making her virtually untouchable even though she can still attack normally. Her invocation of Oomagatsumi was capable of altering the properties of the entire moon, including making the immortal residents mortal again.

-The size of the miniature sun Okuu uses to reinvigorate the Hell of Blazing Fires is never actually stated, but there isn't a noticeable curve along it's surface or visible horizon when the heroines fly over it in SA, and it's massive enough to be an entire stage by itself. I'd say it's at least big enough that creating it equals or exceeds the lowest interpretation of Yukari's feats. She can create smaller suns more or less instantly and freely spam them. Marisa states that the temperature of Okuu's projectiles exceeds her mini-hakkero, which can incinerate mountains.

That's just going by shown/stated feats, most of which are casual. That doesn't cover the more unclear ones (The 'world reconstruction' attributed to EX-Keine's Last Word, Sakuya's time compression, Youmu's infinite width slashes...), the powerscaled characters (Yuka, Shikieiki, Yuugi, etc.), or the ones that don't have many feats but could still beat Yukari with ease going by their abilities (Yuyuko, Flandre, and possibly Kaguya being prime examples).

Yukari is considered to be top tier both in-universe and by the creator of the series, and yet she hasn't shown anything that can be proved without a doubt to be beyond Gensokyo in scale, while other high/top tiers have shown feats well beyond that. According to ZUN the danger and potency of her ability is beyond imagination, and yet the most threatening thing she's actually done with it is run people over with a train.



> Um, no it doesn't. It's a defensive artifact, not an offensive one. The claim isn't that it will destroy anything it touches, but that it will bock any attack.



The databook establishes how that works by stating that it changes it's nature to something that makes the jutsu used against it ineffective. It's basic element wheel stuff, no different than Sasuke diffusing Deidara's bombs with lightning jutsu. If it had infinite power and dominance over Yin and Yang the hydra would have been canceled out on contact, or at least damaged/weakened somehow.



> Again, pointless to reflect lightning back up to a cloud, and Orochimaru was hurt when he attacked it, meaning his own kinetic energy was reflected back at him (Newton's third law and all).



Orochimaru took no damage from striking the shield, and reflecting the lightning is much preferable to taking even more damage given Itachi's primary goal in that fight.



> Just like you claim Yukari wasn't creating a hole in the boundary with no evidence to support it.



Known character traits, self contradiction, complete lack of motive, behavior indicating that she was messing with Reimu's head...



> She could if her power works the way you say it does.



I guess you know my interpretation of Yukari's powers better than I do, then.



> No, because that would be seen as a concession, and I am not wrong here.



A concession of what? That you're tired of the debate and don't see the point in continuing it? Believe it or not that's not something I'd twist to mean that I've 'won' anything. If you want to be stubborn, though, that's your problem and not mine.

Want me to concede something else? Would that be sufficient for you to step down without being considered wrong by anyone? I'm enjoying this debate, but if it's putting you in such a sour mood then by all means let's wrap it up. 



> Madara is pretty obviously stronger than him by powerscaling.



Prime Madara hasn't been seen in action yet and the watered down version is weaker than Pain, even with Izanagi. Recent events may have changed this, but we have to see what he can do now before we make any calls on whether or not he's surpassed Pain.



> Yet earlier you claimed they can't leave.



There is no indication that your average youkai could get through the border, no. Doesn't mean they can't get help from someone like Reimu if they want to leave, though. The thing is, there's usually no reason for them to want to leave. It's like saying you're bound to your neighborhood because you have no desire to move someplace else.



> But it's not as impressive as projecting moonbusting power across that distance.



Agreed, since shattering space and putting it back together are unquantifiable.



> Then explain all of the other characters with weak powers and no impressive feats beating her.



Who's beaten her outside of a spellcard duel, in which she can't use her full powers? Nobody.



> He's a mutant. Specifically, an Omega level mutant, who are defined as having unlimited potential.



Cool, except that doesn't really address my point. The mechanics of an ability can do a great deal in confirming or disproving such absolute claims.



> Difference is that Braddock actually has feats of universal and multiversal reality warping.



Which changes absolutely nothing about my opinion here. The fact that I imagine Yukari's powers working in a similar manner has nothing to do with how powerful she is compared to him.



> Who the fuck cares? Hulk has planetary - level strength feats.



Good for him. I fail to see what the elevation of the Youkai Mountain has to do with Hulk's strength, though, especially since that tidbit of info was in response to Weather and not you.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 25, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Indeed, but that would depend on a limitation of the power itself, like the user needing to know the molecular structure of what's he's changing to use his power on it. If we're simply presented with an ability that is described as changing matter between different states and it's user has never had any need to use it on a living creature, is it logical to assume it doesn't work on them when there's no known reason why it wouldn't?



Considering the trope is so common in fiction, then it should at least be given some doubt. Of course, this whole line of reasoning is a red herring, as you are using an analogy in the form of "A can to X to B, so A can probably do X to C too", but that breaks down when you try to apply it to Yukari's claimed powers, since X cannot be accurately defined in that case.



> I wouldn't dismiss it as being beyond the scope of her powers, no. I would argue, though, that Orihime has yet to realize her full potential. She's already shown that she can reject someone getting their upper half vaporized. If her power is indeed rejection of events and as godlike as Aizen suggests it is, why could she not also reject the act of Ulquiorra releasing Murcielago? Undoing his transformation would be no different than her 'healing', which basically resets the target back to the way they were before being injured.
> 
> The best reason I can think of is that she simply doesn't realize she could do something like that with her powers, just as she didn't realize she could restore Tsubaki despite not having his remains. That, combined with the fact that the potency of her powers is stated to vary based on her mindset, leads me to believe that most of her limitations are more mental than physical.



Sorry, but the OBD doesn't work that way. It doesn't matter how great her powers are stated to be, if there is nothing to back them up, we don't assume she can do things completely out of the scope of what she has shown to be able to do.



> The boundary is there for a reason. If anyone could pass through it whenever they wanted it wouldn't be very useful, would it?



I thought the purpose was to isolate it from Earth.



> Again I don't really see the relevance. If you interpret ZUN's statement to include Gensokyo's residents Yukari is powerful enough to kill the Dragon so it's thoughts on the matter don't mean anything. If you interpret it differently they still don't mean anything as ZUN only stated that Yukari had the power to casually annihilate Gensokyo, not that she would succeed if she attempted it.



The semantic contortionism here defies belief. How do you take the statement "A can easily do B" and interpret it to mean "A can try to do B but will fail"?



> I consider 'annihilation' to be pretty thorough on the destruction scale, don't you?



Yet you don't count the beings that live there. You're defining it arbitrarily. Hell, you could say that the Axis countries were annihilated in WW2, but that doesn't mean that they no longer physically exist.



> Fair enough. However, this requires us to assume that she had a valid motive, that she was creating two holes, and that whatever she was doing needed two holes to be effective. In the alternative, we only have to assume she was BSing to rile up Reimu.



You've already admitted she has weird motives that can't usually be understood, and this is supported by canon.



> She doesn't have to, she chooses to because she's lazy and has a shikigami who can do her work for her. Ran takes care of all the things Yukari herself used to handle. This includes checking the border for problems and presumably fixing it when such problems arise as well.



This does not address the problem at all. If she was omniscient in such matters, she wouldn't need to check, she would know. That's what the word means. Omniscient = all knowing. 



> The assumption could be scientific ignorance on my part. Would sufficiently increasing the amount of sunlight that strikes the moon make it appear as bright as the sun, or would you have to increase the surface's ability to reflect light to achieve that effect?



Doesn't matter. My point is why use the moon at all, why not just make the light look like it was coming from the moon?



> I don't recall anything of the sort being mentioned, no.



Then it's useless as a feat.



> Why are you assuming that it has the same gravity as the actual moon? I might be missing some offhand statement somewhere, but I don't remember any character stating that they felt lighter than usual or that the gravity was off when they were on the true moon in SSiB. Likewise, I'm not aware of any moon based character having difficulty adjusting to Earth's gravity.



When they do stuff like fly through other dimensions that appear to be full of space and stars and don't mention being weightless or anything, that's not exactly a convincing argument.



> There's really nothing that suggests otherwise, though, save for Suika's statement that it's a reflection of the true moon, and we can't take that literally or it wouldn't physically exist.



Point is, it's not the real moon, it's a fake, therefore, you can't say destroying it is as impressive as destroying the moon IRL.



> Problem is, if she simply teleported the pieces back together, how did she know exactly how to reassemble Suika on the microscopic level?



Send the pieces back to where they used to be?



> As far as speed goes, SSiB already covers half the list. Remilia circling the moon happened between Marisa's fight and her own, so we already know it couldn't have taken very long or Reimu would have fought instead. If it took a few minutes she has triple digit mach speed, and even if it took an hour she'd still be a little over Mach 8.



Seen that. Problem is, it doesn't address reaction speed. You would also have to prove the fake moon is as far away from Earth as the real moon.



> Marisa avoiding her own laser reflected back at her speaks for itself. I already know what your argument against this one is, and no, Marisa's movement when firing the second half of her Double Spark doesn't mean anything. Earlier in the fight Yorihime somehow slowed down Marisa's barrage until the projectiles weren't moving at all. The fact that the first beam hovered right in front of her for four pages while she and Marisa did a few other things surely isn't a coincidence, nor is the fact that both beams reached her at the same time despite being fired in succession.



Covered this already. She said "nothing is faster than light", then outran the beam, meaning she was lying, so she can't be trusted to have been telling the truth about the speed of the beam in the first place.



> The only powerscaling involved is Aya being stated to be faster than Remilia, and Aya's own thoughts on Youmu's bursts of speed:
> 
> 
> Which would make Youmu the fastest pure speed character in the series, since Kaguya acting within a femtosecond is considered similar to time manipulation.



Yet she was not fast enough to run over a lake.



> If you assume it's a physical limitation and not just Yukari choosing only to watch Gensokyo.



Now you're just using a no - limits fallacy. Why does she wonder about those things I quoted earlier if she could just find them out with a thought?



> Indeed I have, and like I said, nobody is forcing you to continue. Or me, for that matter.



Then cut it out, because if you waste any more of my time I'll consider negging you for it.



> I'm asking you what you think is the more appropriate choice between the two. On that note, there's a significant difference between things I believe a character to be capable of and things that would be considered fair game in an OBD debate. I'm more than happy to stick with the 'Character X can't do anything they haven't shown the ability to do' logic for the sake of a debate, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'd agree with it when discussing the character or their potential in a more casual setting.



This whole debate focuses on how these powers would be treated in an actual vs. thread. I don't care if some fucktard personally believes Goku is a universe buster, as long as he realizes he can't support that claim in an actual debate. You can believe any stupid thing you want, just don't claim you can justify it with evidence.



> Okay, then what about this: Yukari's power has been deemed too vague to quantify. Since the extent of her power and her limits are based almost completely on speculation, she should be kept out of the OBD until a more concrete explanation of her ability has been given. Failing that, for the sake of debate she should not be assumed to be capable of anything that is not a logical extension of the feats and abilities she's shown.
> 
> How's that?



Fine by me.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 25, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Off the top of my head:
> 
> -Shinki created her own universe, which is well beyond anything Yukari has done. That's the most impressive feat in Touhou period, actually.



It's only a claim though, we never actually saw her do it. Considering how easily she was defeated, I tend to think she was either lying or simply can't use that kind of power in combat. Anyway, it's irrelevant, because nothing states Yukari is above her. 



> -Eirin sealed off the entire planet, and stated she had even stronger seals. She's also confirmed to have adjusted the moon's rotational/orbital periods, and is probably the one who made the fake moon in IN. She's stated to hold back quite a bit, too, so she's a very casual moon/planet level character.



Define "sealed off". Also, she doesn't even live in Gensokyo (you stated earlier that you didn't consider Eientei to be part of Gensokyo), so she's not one of the characters that Yukari was stated to be able to easily beat.



> -We've already covered Suika. Casual moon/space buster and can just as easily put them both back together, all from a couple hundred thousand miles away. She's a youkai, and would spit in the face of Akyu stating that Yukari was the strongest youkai if we went purely by showings.



Covered this already. Oh, and I'm pretty sure that Oni and Youkai are different.



> -The legend where Amaterasu basically turned off the sun by hiding away from the world actually happened in Touhou, so Yorihime being able to summon Amaterasu and use her powers puts her at star level.



Assuming she can use all of these powers to their maximum potential. Oh, and stopping the light from the sun is much less impressive than actually destroying it.



> Then there's the countless other gods she can invoke, enough for her to estimate that she could win almost forty million battles in a row if she only used one or two per fight.



Okay.... that tells me nothing. I could win 40 million battles in a row against bacteria, in fact my immune system outdoes that every day.

Besides, aren't these two supposed to be above Yukari anyway?



> -Toyohime's fan can instantly disintegrate an area the size of the bamboo forest (at least a few kilometers across judging by IN) at the atomic level. In CiLR she demonstrates the ability to transform the true moon into the reflected one. It's not stated precisely how it works, but it looks like a pretty legitimate moon level feat.



First part is unimpressive, second part is probably due to the fact that she's part of the race that created and set it up in the first place. Again, this character is supposed to be above Yukari anyway.



> -Reimu can phase out of reality itself, making her virtually untouchable even though she can still attack normally. Her invocation of Oomagatsumi was capable of altering the properties of the entire moon, including making the immortal residents mortal again.



First part is unimpressive without anything to compare it to, second part is decent but not up to the claims you're making.



> -The size of the miniature sun Okuu uses to reinvigorate the Hell of Blazing Fires is never actually stated, but there isn't a noticeable curve along it's surface or visible horizon when the heroines fly over it in SA, and it's massive enough to be an entire stage by itself. I'd say it's at least big enough that creating it equals or exceeds the lowest interpretation of Yukari's feats. She can create smaller suns more or less instantly and freely spam them. Marisa states that the temperature of Okuu's projectiles exceeds her mini-hakkero, which can incinerate mountains.



Since it was supposed to be underground, it couldn't be that big. I doubt it was any bigger than Pain's Chibaku Tensei. All of that is unimpressive.



> That's just going by shown/stated feats, most of which are casual. That doesn't cover the more unclear ones (The 'world reconstruction' attributed to EX-Keine's Last Word, Sakuya's time compression, Youmu's infinite width slashes...), the powerscaled characters (Yuka, Shikieiki, Yuugi, etc.), or the ones that don't have many feats but could still beat Yukari with ease going by their abilities (Yuyuko, Flandre, and possibly Kaguya being prime examples).



All of that is worthless without feats.



> Yukari is considered to be top tier both in-universe and by the creator of the series, and yet she hasn't shown anything that can be proved without a doubt to be beyond Gensokyo in scale, while other high/top tiers have shown feats well beyond that.



The only one you mentioned by someone that Yukari is clearly stronger than was Reimu making the residents of the moon mortal. Considering that Yukari and a bunch of allies failed to invade the moon before, that must have either been PIS on Reimu's part, or they didn't really care about being made mortal.



> According to ZUN the danger and potency of her ability is beyond imagination, and yet the most threatening thing she's actually done with it is run people over with a train.



Then ZUN is just flapping his big fat ugly lips.



> The databook establishes how that works by stating that it changes it's nature to something that makes the jutsu used against it ineffective. It's basic element wheel stuff, no different than Sasuke diffusing Deidara's bombs with lightning jutsu. If it had infinite power and dominance over Yin and Yang the hydra would have been canceled out on contact, or at least damaged/weakened somehow.



Not necessarily. That's not its job.



> Orochimaru took no damage from striking the shield,



Is that why the snake heads were all scrunched up and clearly repelled? Obviously he just didn't put enough force into his strike to seriously injure himself.



> and reflecting the lightning is much preferable to taking even more damage given Itachi's primary goal in that fight.



He didn't get it up until after the lightning had already damaged him somewhat.



> Known character traits,



Like being weird and doing inexplicable things?



> self contradiction, complete lack of motive, behavior indicating that she was messing with Reimu's head...



The "indicators" are only in your mind.



> I guess you know my interpretation of Yukari's powers better than I do, then.



Your interpretation is inconsistent. You claim she has this abstract do anything power, but then you try to impose limits on it so you won't seem like a wanker. I'm just pointing out that there's nothing logically consistent about those limits if we use your interpretation.



> A concession of what? That you're tired of the debate and don't see the point in continuing it? Believe it or not that's not something I'd twist to mean that I've 'won' anything. If you want to be stubborn, though, that's your problem and not mine.
> 
> Want me to concede something else? Would that be sufficient for you to step down without being considered wrong by anyone? I'm enjoying this debate, but if it's putting you in such a sour mood then by all means let's wrap it up.



Do you know how many times I've been in a debate with some retard who would not listen to any of my points or concede anything, and I eventually gave up out of disgust and boredom, and he just claimed victory? See the infamous WWH vs. Bleach thread. 



> Prime Madara hasn't been seen in action yet and the watered down version is weaker than Pain, even with Izanagi. Recent events may have changed this, but we have to see what he can do now before we make any calls on whether or not he's surpassed Pain.



It's pretty clear that he is, Pain even took orders from him. He also didn't consider Pain's defeat to be a very big setback and had no problem challenging the Kages and the rest of the ninja world.



> There is no indication that your average youkai could get through the border, no. Doesn't mean they can't get help from someone like Reimu if they want to leave, though. The thing is, there's usually no reason for them to want to leave. It's like saying you're bound to your neighborhood because you have no desire to move someplace else.



You're contradicting yourself. First you say they can't leave, then you say they just don't want to. Which is it?



> Who's beaten her outside of a spellcard duel, in which she can't use her full powers? Nobody.



What was stopping her from just ignoring those rules?


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## Endless Mike (Oct 25, 2010)

Part 2 (Continued):



> Cool, except that doesn't really address my point. The mechanics of an ability can do a great deal in confirming or disproving such absolute claims.



Not if the mechanism is something vague and unquantifiable like "manipulating boundaries".

If it helps:

The X gene on Earth was introduced to the human population by the Celestials when they visited the Earth millions of years ago. Their purpose was to allow humanity to evolve to higher levels, and eventually replace the cosmic Abstracts of the universe. The Phoenix Force is another being that helps guide this process. After millions of years of evolution of the genes altered by the Celestials, mutants began appearing. Their powers would be mostly random and run the gamut from things like enhanced physical abilities to outright reality warping. They were divided into levels based on potential capability. An Omega - level mutant is defined as having unlimited potential, that is, there is no theoretical limit to how powerful they could be. Vulcan was an Omega - level mutant whose power was stated to be the ability to manipulate energy.



> Which changes absolutely nothing about my opinion here. The fact that I imagine Yukari's powers working in a similar manner has nothing to do with how powerful she is compared to him.



"You imagine" - oh, that's such a convincing argument. Whatever am I to do in the face of such solid and irrefutable evidence as that?



> Good for him. I fail to see what the elevation of the Youkai Mountain has to do with Hulk's strength, though, especially since that tidbit of info was in response to Weather and not you.



The whole debate and purpose of the thread is about the Hulk. Did you forget?


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 25, 2010)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Do you know how many times I've been in a debate with some retard who would not listen to any of my points or concede anything, and I eventually gave up out of disgust and boredom, and he just claimed victory? See the infamous WWH vs. Bleach thread.



I'm not one of those people, and I'll prove it by conceding on the core matter right now, since we're in agreement of what would be viable for debate by OBD standards. There are plenty of parts of that post I could keep arguing against, but that can wait for a time when these things would be more relevant. Pleasure debating with you, even if I was the only one who enjoyed it. 

Although for future reference, Youmu not being able to run over a lake is from a fanmade doujin. It's not canon.

Now that that's all said and done, I think I'll go track down the thread in question for further amusement.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 25, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> I'm not one of those people, and I'll prove it by conceding on the core matter right now, since we're in agreement of what would be viable for debate by OBD standards. There are plenty of parts of that post I could keep arguing against, but that can wait for a time when these things would be more relevant. Pleasure debating with you, even if I was the only one who enjoyed it.
> 
> Although for future reference, Youmu not being able to run over a lake is from a fanmade doujin. It's not canon.



Well it was posted in another thread as canon evidence by someone.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 25, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Well it was posted in another thread as canon evidence by someone.



I'd assume they were using the fact that the lake splitting slash reaches the moon as a power/range feat. It's about as canon as Youmu slicing the moon in half in Touhou Soccer, so they were either misinformed or outright lying.


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## Weather (Oct 25, 2010)

> Covered this already. She said "nothing is faster than light", then outran the beam, meaning she was lying, so she can't be trusted to have been telling the truth about the speed of the beam in the first place.



SHe "Outrunned" one the Double Sparks... it consist in two weaker versions of Master Sparks.
The attack Claimed to be lightspeed (And backed by Yorihime herself) is Final Spark a POWERED up version of Master Spark.

Two diferent techniches and you can't prove that the first one wasn't lightspeed.
Also the Double Spark should be easily Hypersonic (It was heading towards to earth and even Youmu saw it from Earth)


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## Endless Mike (Oct 26, 2010)

Weather said:


> SHe "Outrunned" one the Double Sparks... it consist in two weaker versions of Master Sparks.
> The attack Claimed to be lightspeed (And backed by Yorihime herself) is Final Spark a POWERED up version of Master Spark.
> 
> Two diferent techniches and you can't prove that the first one wasn't lightspeed.
> Also the Double Spark should be easily Hypersonic (It was heading towards to earth and even Youmu saw it from Earth)



No, the one who fired it and made the claim outran her own beam.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 26, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> No, the one who fired it and made the claim outran her own beam.



Like I mentioned, her opponent had demonstrated the ability to bring attacks to a halt earlier in that same chapter. Marisa's first beam got within a foot or so of Yorihime, and it stayed right there in front of her while the following happened:

-Marisa flew higher and fired the second beam.
-Yorihime summoned Ishikoridome (Holding the Yata no Kagami) directly behind her.
-Ishikoridome turned the mirror around so it's reflective side was facing the second beam.
-The second beam traveled a slightly farther distance than the first.

Only after all that did the first beam start moving again and cover that last foot or so of distance to get cut in half by Yorihime's sword. In short, Marisa seemingly outrunning the first beam does nothing to disprove the claim that the attacks were light speed, since the attack she 'outran' was apparently frozen in place for four pages by her opponent.

But that's all I'll say on the matter, as I don't feel like reigniting the debate.


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## Weather (Oct 26, 2010)

> No, the one who fired it and made the claim outran her own beam.



The second beam...Double Spark Which is two WEAKER version of Master Sparks.
The Final Spark (Wich was proclaimed lightspeed by Marisa and Yorihime) WAS NEVER Outrunned by Marisa.

Scans?
Orochimaru
Orochimaru
Orochimaru
Link removed

I don't see her outrunning anything.

If you men the second attack from Marisa Like I said the Double Spark is two Weaker Versions of master Sparks Those are two different attacks... and you can't prove this one wasn't lightspeed.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2010)

After dodging the first one, she said she wouldn't be able to dodge the next one, meaning it was at least as fast.


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