# Cloaked Speedsters vs. Hax Speedsters



## DaVizWiz (Sep 9, 2015)

*Location*: Bell Test Grounds
*Distance*: 15m 
*Knowledge*: Manga
*Mindset*: Kill, IC
*Restrictions*: Afternoon Tiger, Naruto's clones, FRS, Edo Tensei, Katon: Bakufū Ranbu, Mokuton, BM (Killer Bee), Izanagi, Summons
*Stipulations*: Kakashi's eye sight is restored, Cloaked speedsters start in their respective forms, Tobirama can use GFK through his tags (doesn't need to sacrifice his body) and has 15 tagged kunai & Katana, assume Minato can remain in SM indefinitely (his shunshin is now on par with KCM Naruto, has danger sense & chakra sense, can use Senpo Odama Rasengan) and has 30 tagged kunai, Naruto's highest form cloak allowed is BM humanoid (no avatar), Bee can use tentacle manifestations while in V2. Minato has everyone on his team pre-tagged, Tobirama has everyone on his team pre-tagged

*Scenario 2*: Raw: No restrictions, added stipulations are thrown out of the window, all start and peak in the respective versions displayed below

Cloaked Speedsters:
(Pre-Rikudo) BM Humanoid Naruto w/ Mini tails 
V2 Ei 
7th Gated Gai
V2 Killer Bee

vs.

Hax Speedsters:
MS Kakashi
MS Obito
Tobirama
Alive SM Minato ​


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## ARGUS (Sep 9, 2015)

Team cloak is restricted far too much whilst team hax is seriously buffed 

Minato gains a Sm with shunshin on par with KCM nAruto whilst tobirama has GKF and doesn't need a sacrifice 
All while nAruto doesn't even have clones and doesn't have FRS but the opposite isn't the case 

With these conditions team hax wins mid diff at most


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 9, 2015)

Restrictions were equalized, Obito lost his Katon, Izanagi and Mokuton (bijuu restrainer); Edo Tensei was also restricted. No one has a powerful ranged technique save Gai (Morning Peacock) & Kakashi (who's fodder here without it), and those are techniques devised around speed (ergo speedsters) & Hax (ergo hax speedsters)

Losing AT, Clones & FRS was a way for me to eliminate hax. FRS inflated with Kurama's chakras is a massive nuke, clearly hax, AT can be delivered at any point as Gai showcased against Judara and it is also massive, and Clones are a super hax technique for a BM Naruto 

He still has Palm Bijuudama, Wind Rasengan (doesn't fly, not as strong), Chou Odama Rasengan, Planetary Rasengan & Chakra Punches, so it's not as if he lost the ability to kill any of them- he simply can't throw the techniques and they don't have a massive AoE

I'll create a second scenario with nothing restricted, let's see how quickly we get "BM Naruto solos via clones"

Mind you, I did not restrict chakra sharing. KN1 (cloaks- ergo team *CLOAK*) Gated Gai & V2 Ei might have something to say about "mid-diff"


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## Ghost (Sep 9, 2015)

Can Nardo give his teammates a chakra cloak?


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## Alex Payne (Sep 9, 2015)

Intangible Obito carrying Hiraishin marks is pretty broken. He doesn't need to risk going tangible against his enemies - simply get into position for Tobirama/Minato to offensively warp on top of someone.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 9, 2015)

ghostcrawler said:


> Can Nardo give his teammates a chakra cloak?


It wasn't restricted.



> Intangible Obito carrying Hiraishin marks is pretty broken. He doesn't need to risk going tangible against his enemies - simply get into position for Tobirama/Minato to offensively warp on top of someone.


He needs to solidify for them to FTG to him.


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## Alex Payne (Sep 9, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> He needs to solidify for them to FTG to him.


Why? Kamui warps body parts away right before physical contact is made. Obito would be invisible if his body is constantly in another dimension.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 9, 2015)

He's vulnerable while he's solidified- if they can FTG to his body which is not in the other dimension- he can be attacked.

There's also scans of people's feet going through his mask, while his mask is visible.

I also don't see the logic behind warping to someone who is partially split between dimensions, if you're insinuating that while he's going through an attack some part of his body is still in the real dimension- and one of them teleports to him. Would they be capable of teleporting to the part still in this dimension, instead of it by default the technique attempts to transfer them to the other dimension- where some part of his body is, and failing?


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## Alex Payne (Sep 9, 2015)

Obito is present in normal dimension unless physical interference happens. He is visible. Can see, hear and speak. If marked part(his opponents don't know where exactly it is) is attacked and then transported - then yeah, Hiraishin is blocked. But otherwise - he is free to stay intangible.


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## Ghost (Sep 9, 2015)

Uhh, Seventh Gate Guy with a chakra cloak and Naruto would murder blitz the other team. Minato with SM can probably dodge but Kakashi and Tobi are going to die for sure.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 9, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Obito is present in normal dimension unless physical interference happens. He is visible. Can see, hear and speak. If marked part(his opponents don't know where exactly it is) is attacked and then transported - then yeah, Hiraishin is blocked. But otherwise - he is free to stay intangible.


Right.. so it depends on where he's marked... hmmmm

Well this is a big advantage for them then, hopefully the Chakra Sharing from Naruto will balance it out.


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## TheGreen1 (Sep 16, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Right.. so it depends on where he's marked... hmmmm
> 
> Well this is a big advantage for them then, hopefully the Chakra Sharing from Naruto will balance it out.



7th Gated Gai could probably solo any of the people on the Hax list just by himself. (Well 1 on 1).


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## hbcaptain (Sep 16, 2015)

> Minato can remain in SM indefinitely (his shunshin is now on par with KCM Naruto



Whaaaaaaaaat ? SM Minato at only KCM naruto level Shunshin  .

otherwise , Minato is at the same time cloaked speeder and hax-speeder and , I already demonstrate that his base Shunshin is far above SM Naruto , and I think he slightly surpasses KCM Naruto and V2 Raikage .

The hax speeder are by far stronger , they should win easily , just one of them could hold on against Kakashi+KCM Naruto + Gai + Bee .


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## Icegaze (Sep 16, 2015)

team hax win
too many stipulations to make it interesting so I only care for scenario 2

in scenario 2 hax team would eventually murder the other, not like the other need unnecessary buff ups which spoil them really 


obito trolls gai 
kakashi trolls Naruto with kamui
either minato or tobirama would get the better of bee
either minato or tobirama would get the better of A

so maybe tobirama opts for bee since it would be easier for him 

team hax also have the benefit of being able to mark kakashi and obito who can also use kamui to escape, and in obito case to phase through

they can also mark themselves, clones etc 

no way they would be loosing. hope Naruto doesn't help them by firing BD...that would only hurt him and his team


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## LostSelf (Sep 16, 2015)

The last time, Minato evaded Ei when Ei's fist basically rubbed his nose.

Would MInato now dodge Cloaked Gai and Ei? I'm having a hard time seeing Minato and Tobirama touching those two at max speeds. Not to mention they will have to rely on markings, considering Gai and Naruto will fuck up all the Kunais.


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## Icegaze (Sep 16, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> The last time, Minato evaded Ei when Ei's fist basically rubbed his nose.
> 
> Would MInato now dodge Cloaked Gai and Ei? I'm having a hard time seeing Minato and Tobirama touching those two at max speeds. Not to mention they will have to rely on markings, considering Gai and Naruto will fuck up all the Kunais.



A didn't touch him at all . A was just as close to KCM as he was to minato and A didn't seem to think he touched either 

A can be cloaked or mega cloaked if needed he can't move faster than minato can activate hirashin which is all he needs to troll A speed forever 

Minato and tobirama will touch them through tricking them with clones who can also hirashin or by getting the jump on them by marking an area they didn't expect or their team mates 


How do gai and naruto fuck up Kunai ? Would minato suddenly loose the ability to throw more Kunai ?

Which btw can instantly be accessed by tobirama once tobirama marks minato 

u think gai and naruto will waste time blowing up Kunai wasting energy and chakra when minato can simply throw more Kunai 

Or mark Kunai Kakashi has or mark weapons obito has


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## Icegaze (Sep 16, 2015)

Worse once Kakashi is marked 
All Kakashi needs to do is throw a weapon with his chakra on it and minato can teleport to it 

Also lets not forget Op forgets minato already has his chakra linked with naruto . Didn't see that restricted 

If it is all he need to is mark anyone naruto has linked his chakra with to get to naruto . Chakra link also works against team cloak here


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## hbcaptain (Sep 16, 2015)

Minato can easily avoid Ae's full speed if he only thinks on avoiding his attack , his reaction speed is much faster than KCM Naruto :

And Shunshin is more than enough to do so .

If he only wants to dodge , since he used two consecutive FTG at a distance of 1m between him and 8 Gates Gai , he can easily evoid any naruto character attack , even the god tiers .

And a lot seems to have forgotten , but Minato clearly dominate two other god speed , Ae and Bee at the same time , using FTG plus his incredibly quick reaction speed .


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## LostSelf (Sep 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> A didn't touch him at all . A was just as close to KCM as he was to minato and A didn't seem to think he touched either



A's fist looked on Minato's nose to me.



> A can be cloaked or mega cloaked if needed he can't move faster than minato can activate hirashin which is all he needs to troll A speed forever



Non boosted Ei was less than an inch from Minato's face and that's when he managed to react and dodge. I'm pretty sure that if Ei was a bit, just a bit faster, he would've punched Minato's head off.



> Minato and tobirama will touch them through tricking them with clones who can also hirashin or by getting the jump on them by marking an area they didn't expect or their team mates



And how would they do touch them with clones, wich are weaker and slower than the original, who are going to be fighting cloaked speedesters? Especially Ei, who can bounce back Raiton flowed Kusanagi with his neck without that chakra armor along with his V2? The only bet they have against Ei is having Obito/Kakashi warp him.




> How do gai and naruto fuck up Kunai ? Would minato suddenly loose the ability to throw more Kunai ?



They can throw more Kunai, Kunai are not endless, Naruto's huge AoE blast like chakra roar are endless as long as Naruto is in that mode.



> Which btw can instantly be accessed by tobirama once tobirama marks minato


They will get destroyed Kunais?


> u think gai and naruto will waste time blowing up Kunai wasting energy and chakra when minato can simply throw more Kunai



They don't need to. Their firepower is huge enough to casually blow it all off while attacking their enemies. And Naruto's more than capable of outlasting everybody here save Obito, and that's a huge probably.



> Or mark Kunai Kakashi has or mark weapons obito has



Never said they couldn't use other weapons. But i'm pretty sure those kunais in the floor are going to get destroyed by Naruto's giant avatar moving at insane speeds followed by two extremely fast speedesters, one of them that was about to hit Minato without that boost.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Worse once Kakashi is marked
> All Kakashi needs to do is throw a weapon with his chakra on it and minato can teleport to it
> 
> Also lets not forget Op forgets minato already has his chakra linked with naruto . Didn't see that restricted
> ...


In a new simulation pre-marks are certainly not valid. 

You can say he has him marked, I can say Minato, Tobirama & Obito are already dead- so they can't fight.

Situationals in the manga don't apply here.


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## Icegaze (Sep 16, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> A's fist looked on Minato's nose to me.



key words looks to you

to kishi and A. A didn't touch minato at all. unless u think minato nose tanked the force of A punch before he teleported



> Non boosted Ei was less than an inch from Minato's face and that's when he managed to react and dodge. I'm pretty sure that if Ei was a bit, just a bit faster, he would've punched Minato's head off.



 could be minato timing. maybe that's what he wanted. notice what happened second time. minato with his back to A. had no issues at all avoiding A. in fact he didn't even take him seriously 

A could be a lot faster and still come no where close to hitting minato. who only needs to mentally react to evade A

minato wanted to counter attack. the best time to teleport was at point blank range and not when A is 5m in front of him. which makes it easier for A to respond

[





> COLOR="Green"]And how would they do touch them with clones, wich are weaker and slower than the original, who are going to be fighting cloaked speedesters? Especially Ei, who can bounce back Raiton flowed Kusanagi with his neck without that chakra armor along with his V2? The only bet they have against Ei is having Obito/Kakashi warp him.[/COLOR]



the clones are distractions. am sure u get that. hitting a clone is perfectly fine. however remember the juubito scenario. where tobirama who didn't have to worry about himself could tag juubito

same thing here. the clones can foolishly engage. and get swatted in hopes of touching and marking their enemies 

A can be much much faster it wouldn't matter. juubito was also far above anyone he faced and we saw how useful hirashin was against him. 



> They can throw more Kunai, Kunai are not endless, Naruto's huge AoE blast like chakra roar are endless as long as Naruto is in that mode.




huge AoE blasts have risks though. cuz if he does such after a team mate has been marked he just 1 shotted said team mate. am sure u get that



> They will get destroyed Kunais?




so Naruto wastes his chakra on destroying something either teleporter can throw again. not endless however u must understand the foolishness behind attacking kunai 



> They don't need to. Their firepower is huge enough to casually blow it all off while attacking their enemies. And Naruto's more than capable of outlasting everybody here save Obito, and that's a huge probably.




outlasting? u think Naruto can outlast minato while chasing him and using huge chakra attacks? when all minato needs to do is teleport. from start to end of battle 



> Never said they couldn't use other weapons. But i'm pretty sure those kunais in the floor are going to get destroyed by Naruto's giant avatar moving at insane speeds followed by two extremely fast speedesters, one of them that was about to hit Minato without that boost.


[/QUOTE]

lol the one u speak of casually got countered. as shown by the second attempt minato wasn't even remotely worried about A speed. if he was he wouldn't turn his back to him only to laughably avoid him 

this is after A thought he knew where all minato marks was. 

here minato has so many other options of markings A regardless of his boost wont be able to come up with 

lastly as I recall minato did intercept goudama and use hirashin so quickly something that instantly negates u didn't have time to take effect.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 16, 2015)

Grazing the nose before someone moves doesn't translate to the full force or damage being applied to it.

He touched his nose, then he transported before the force of the fist landed, this is the same situation as Kakashi being hit with Minato's Rasengan, but teleporting it before it did significant damage. In that situation, Kakashi said he wasn't hit with it- that he teleported it- when in fact it did make contact with him before he teleported it as we saw him being pushed back with the Rasengan still being active.

If it were a game of tag, Minato & Kakashi would now be it.


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## Icegaze (Sep 16, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Grazing the nose before someone moves doesn't translate to the full force or damage being applied to it.
> 
> He touched his nose, then he transported before the force of the fist landed, this is the same situation as Kakashi being hit with Minato's Rasengan, but teleporting it before it did significant damage. In that situation, Kakashi said he wasn't hit with it- that he teleported it- when in fact it did make contact with him before he teleported it as we saw him being pushed back with the Rasengan still being active.
> 
> If it were a game of tag, Minato & Kakashi would now be it.



ok so why on earth did minato laughably avoid him the second time?

and how come minato was perfectly ready for the counter attack the first time

its called timing people. u don't get ur nose grazed show no surprise and get behind the enemy ready to swing. if the person initial speed surprised u enough to have ur nose grazed

no one gets their noses grazed the first time looking at their enemy, only to turn their back to them and laughably avoid them the second time


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 16, 2015)

Why did KCM Naruto laughably avoid him the third time, after failing two times (3 if you count the fact that Ei threw Bee into him) prior?

Because the fucking author chose to write it that way.


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## Icegaze (Sep 16, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Why did KCM Naruto laughably avoid him the third time, after failing two times prior?
> 
> Because the fucking author chose to write it that way.




do u mean to compare the 2

its called different speeds smart ass

A wasn't going full speed the first 2 times either, nor was Naruto 

 cant believe ur example. 

am sorry I spat my drink out reading that horse shit

now does minato hirashin speed vary?u know he isn't moving and unlike shunshin it isn't something that varies based on the chakra put in 

unless like ur smart ass example...

u mean to suggest A actually got slower while fully intending to kill Naruto

author didn't write it that way, u simply failed to understand something horribly simple, drawn with pretty pictures and easy to understand translated text


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 16, 2015)

So? Minato wasn't going full speed the first time.

Are you incapable of understanding this logic?

His nose was touched, get over it dude.


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## Icegaze (Sep 16, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> So? Minato wasn't going full speed the first time.
> 
> Are you incapable of understanding this logic?
> 
> His nose was touched, get over it dude.



 
English isn't ur first language clearly 

how could he not have been. he is teleporting of course he was 

my point is he timed it that way intentionally seeing that second time he turned his back to his enemy and still casually avoided him 

but I understand easy stuff escapes u 

ah aren't u brilliant 

his nose gets touched when he faces his enemy then he turns his back and A cant even touch his flag jacket


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 16, 2015)

No, he clearly reacted slower the first time, which is the reason his nose was touched the first time. 

Your logic:
>Minato avoiding him completely a second time cannot be possible if he failed to avoid him completely the first time

Manga logic:
>KCM Naruto fails to avoid him 2 times
>A third time he avoids Ei entirely

Mail the author, not my fault he wrote it that way.


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## Icegaze (Sep 16, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> No, he clearly reacted slower the first time, which is the reason his nose was touched the first time.
> 
> Your logic:
> >Minato somehow cannot avoid him completely a second time, if he failed the first time
> ...



ok so his reaction impoved in mid battle? guess minato got sharingan half way through that
great one


 someone please explain in slow words to this smart person 

A WASNT GOING FULL SPEED FIRST TIME NOR WAS NARUTO!!!!

so I don't see how the first 2 times are relevant. killer bee and A even say it. he wasn't in V2 till the last attempt where he wanted to kill Naruto 

Naruto avoided it. by having a faster shunshin

shunshin speed varies every IDIOT knows this. more chakra quicker shunshin..less chakra slower shunshin

basics of this explaned even in the haku fight. in part 1


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 16, 2015)

Nope, Minato was surprised by his speed and reacted at the last possible second. The shocked face pretty much proves this. 

Next time he had no issue reacting and avoiding him entirely with time to spare, with no shocked face. 

No matter how much you cry you can't deny what's drawn on panel. I suggest you grab a box of tissues and learn to accept truth.


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## Icegaze (Sep 16, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Nope, Minato was surprised by his speed and reacted at the last possible second. The shocked face pretty much proves this.
> 
> Next time he had no issue reacting and avoiding him entirely with time to spare, with no shocked face.
> 
> No matter how much you cry you can't deny what's drawn on panel. I suggest you grab a box of tissues and learn to accept truth.



lol do show me a scan of someone shocked without the exclamation mark clearly missing in the panel with A

lol 

drawn on panel as well is minato intercepting 8th gate gai. need a scan? its just as much drawn as what u assume. happened in minato vs A. 

here are some tissues for you 

I guess A in the end is faster than gai. now cringe, and find that tall bridge 

what u decide next is on u


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 16, 2015)

"!" is needed to prove when someone is surprised?

Here we see A's fist touching his nose.


In the bottom right you can see Minato with a surprised expression after previously talking to them with a smile as if they were no threat.

Here we have his expression a second time:


Clearly unconcerned.


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## Icegaze (Sep 16, 2015)

lol yes every single time in 700 chapter of manga when kishi wants to express a character surprise by speed there is an exclamation marks

shouten kisame vs 6th gate gai for example

deidara vs sasuke the list goes on 


and lol u have already conceded though. I don't get ur foolish argument. u just provided a scan of minato effortlessly avoiding A, while trying to say he barely did so the first time

well the second time he did with no effort, so the he nearly got hit goes out the window does it not?


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## hbcaptain (Sep 16, 2015)

Lol , It's normal to be surprised once by Ei's speed , after all he can One Shot a lot of Kage level just using his Shunshin , otherwise Minato doesn't even suit against his full speed, and apparently physical condition is at its peak in twenties even in Naruto (What said Jiraya about Tsunade) , so Raikage against KCM Naruto is much slower and only attack using his left hand .
Then we have those faces :

Both Ae and Bee are sweeting while Minato is dealing very calmly with the situation . That prove that the fourth is faaar beyond Raikage's level .


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## Icegaze (Sep 16, 2015)

hb 
thank you 

didn't even notice the sweat nor A puzzled sweaty and shocked face

not that it matters. 

bee shivered at the mention of minato 

and A already said minato was the stuff of legend. A with more chakra wouldn't suddenly get so fast that he can move quicker than minato can think 

I mean even juubito with horribly more chakra than A could ever have couldn't move so fast and attack tobirama without being tagged. which means tobirama thought process was still>>>>>>>>>>>>juubito speed. 

so clearly A or KN1 A or KN9 A would have the same result. he gets evaded. A wouldn't admit minato was the stuff of legend if minato was only barely faster and spent all their battles almost getting hit


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## hbcaptain (Sep 16, 2015)

Since he can use at least two successive FTG before 8 Gates Gai even advanced for 1m , then no one of naruto characters would be able to touch him if he focus on just dodging attacks . 

Plus I just remembered , but Minato laucnhed fiew Kunais + the Kunai of counter-attack before while Ae's was in the midst of Shunshin , that proves that his hand moves and reflexes are extremely fast , in the same case , by far faster than Madara who only had the time to block a much slower V1 Ei's pucnh (age+without his dominant arm) .


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## Icegaze (Sep 16, 2015)

Minato threw those Kunai before A moved 
Need to correct that 

Not that it matters minato can obviously throw a Kunai quicker than A max shunshin or minato would be slower than A 

As I doubt everytime they fought A rushed in . Clearly minato was able to get to him regardless of what A did 

No way would A in their multiple battles rush at minato each time .


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## hbcaptain (Sep 16, 2015)

Plus , Minato's reflexes are better than Ei's according to Cee , if we add intelligence , Kage Bunshin use , strategy , Uzumaki's Fuinjutsu/barriere , toad summoning , that's all make him  far beyond Raikage's level  , and that's why he could fight both of them simultaneously , Bee would be near Ei's speed if he use his V2 . Basically , it's as he cross blades many times with two Raikage's at the same time , and was always dominating the fight without being hit ever once (otherwise it's a certain death) . That's why Ei said that nobody can surpass him .


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> lol yes every single time in 700 chapter of manga when kishi wants to express a character surprise by speed there is an exclamation marks
> 
> shouten kisame vs 6th gate gai for example
> 
> ...


>Continues to bring other examples into it to deny what is shown directly on panel

>Posted scan of his nose CLEARLY being touched
>Please explain how his nose is not being touched
>Do not use Ei's "He avoided my full speed" again, please explain visually how you see that fist not touching his nose


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## LostSelf (Sep 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> key words looks to you



Yeah, to me. And the panel. Go check them.




> to kishi and A. A didn't touch minato at all. unless u think minato nose tanked the force of A punch before he teleported



In what dinner together did Kishi tell you that Ei didn't touch Minato when we have a panel of Ei's fist on Minato's nose?



> could be minato timing. maybe that's what he wanted. notice what happened second time. minato with his back to A. had no issues at all avoiding A. in fact he didn't even take him seriously



What he wanted? Seriously? You should know Kishi personally considering you know what Minato wanted to do, considering his face looks like in a surprised state.

Don't see how this contradicts my point. Minato always dodged Ei on the last moment on panel.


> A could be a lot faster and still come no where close to hitting minato. who only needs to mentally react to evade A



Yeah, a lot faster means getting closer to what he did in two ocassions. Wich means killing him before he teleports. 



> minato wanted to counter attack. the best time to teleport was at point blank range and not when A is 5m in front of him. which makes it easier for A to respond



And his astonished face was there for...?



> the clones are distractions. am sure u get that. hitting a clone is perfectly fine. however remember the juubito scenario. where tobirama who didn't have to worry about himself could tag juubito
> 
> same thing here. the clones can foolishly engage. and get swatted in hopes of touching and marking their enemies



If the clones can touch them. Physically, Gai and Ei are way faster than Minato and Tobirama. (And the huge gap in striking speed between Gai and the Hiraishin duo) Not to mention BM Naruto, whose speed is something to be feared here, too.



> A can be much much faster it wouldn't matter. juubito was also far above anyone he faced and we saw how useful hirashin was against him.


Yes, against a Juubito busy with other shinobis and not attacking them. Or would you say that Minato would dodge Juubito and counter attack him too?

Unless Minato has Ei/Gai marked (or the distance allows it, considering that the bigger the distance, the easier he will react) and attacks while they are attacking somebody else, i don't see that tactic happening. Especially if Ei and Gai decides to work together and the other taking down Minato/Tobirama when they teleport to counter attack. 



> huge AoE blasts have risks though. cuz if he does such after a team mate has been marked he just 1 shotted said team mate. am sure u get that



How can Minato redirect a chakra roar? It's not a proyectile. Or his tails?



> so Naruto wastes his chakra on destroying something either teleporter can throw again. not endless however u must understand the foolishness behind attacking kunai



Yeah... I don't think a tail swing will cost Naruto, and i don't think Minato can do something to a tail that took a Juubi's laser either.


> outlasting? u think Naruto can outlast minato while chasing him and using huge chakra attacks? when all minato needs to do is teleport. from start to end of battle



Huge chakra attacks? Since when a tail swipe, or a shunshing like the one he used to kick the Bijudamas aside huge chakra attacks?




> lol the one u speak of casually got countered. as shown by the second attempt minato wasn't even remotely worried about A speed. if he was he wouldn't turn his back to him only to laughably avoid him



Oh, my bad. I forgot Minato wasn't looking at Ei with a serious face. I suppose that's " not taking him seriously .

And i expected the example of Minato reacting two times against 8th gated Gai to come up (Basically, crazy feats are valid anytime they are not Gai's). Gai slowed down.

That is, unless we say that Gaara's sand ad Lee'd throwing speed eclipses Gai's speed.

Minato has nothing to do on a red Gai rampaging against him other than getting blitzed.


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## Icegaze (Sep 17, 2015)

@lostself
Did you and Kishi have a dinner Convo about gai slowing down ?

Hypocrite 

If one is to look at just the panels like you are doing and ignoring the entire manga

Then gai didn't slow down . No screech sounds !! How would u slow down moving that fast yet have no panel 

Markings showing him slow down 


It's hilarious u think A grazed minato nose . Yet decades after calls minato the stuff of legend 

Nothing legendary about a ninja u almost killed on first attempt 

Last feel free to show me another scan in the manga where someone is surprised by speed yet has no exclamation mark

I assure u everytime there was one . Kishi is an obvious artist 

He wouldn't have had minato turn his back the second time with no sweat on his face when according to u he almost just died 


But like I said mr hypocrite , please tell me how ur convo with Kishi went 

I expect better from you

Ps: did A also graze KCM naruto nose or eyes ? In the panel it looks like he did 

Or does that assumption only hold true when discussing minato ? So A grazes naruto then says u avoided my fastest punch then thinks him strong enough to stand on his own 

Yh that makes sense I almost kill u when finally going seriously then call u the stuff of legend .


edit: am sorry why would chakra roars do anything more to kunai than send them flying far away. what feats do chakra raw have of decimating metal? am curious 

like I don't see why it wont just push the kunai away

not like kunai are even needed in the battle. clones, team mates should largely suffice. 

not like marks on the konoha statue is restricted, and why should it be. they can go there and come back to the battlefield instantly...

no different from obito kamui phasing


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## Icegaze (Sep 18, 2015)

Look at the panel with 8th gate gai and tell me what indicates he slowed down 
U answer me that 

I'll answer urs can't have it both ways 

If one is to panel squint and ignore the manga then minato just completely shit blitz 8th gate gai 

Kinda like how rock lee apparently is faster than goudama and it's a speed feat  remember 

 

Can't be double sided , hold all ur arguments to the same standard 

Yes the panel looks like he touched minato , the panel with gai has no indication of gai slowing down 

So u take that how u need to to help u sleep 

Following the manga though, A clearly thinks minato is the stuff of legend when compared to him . That's not a statement someone would make if on first attempt he almost kills him


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 18, 2015)

Im pretty sure Ei touched his nose the first time. You can see the damage left on minatos nose after he teleports.


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## Icegaze (Sep 18, 2015)

Yh Yh ur right I see it 
His nose is bleeding 
How didn't I see that the first time 

can't believe I've been arguing against it . Feel silly now


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 18, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Yh Yh ur right I see it
> His nose is bleeding
> How didn't I see that the first time
> 
> can't believe I've been arguing against it . Feel silly now


not damage per se, just a little scuff mark to indicate his nose was merely brushed.

Anyway, whats the argument about. The counter was still a counter, and that was the first time seeing his speed.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 18, 2015)

It's wast of time responding this stuff , Minato cross blades many times with Ei+Bee and was never toucher ever once , it's clear that the raikage is no match for him .


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 18, 2015)

Hashirama and Madara also crossed blades for several years. Yet hashirama was always seen as superior. Still not getting what the argument is about.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 18, 2015)

If Minato was touched by Ei or Bee's punches/strikes , he would be already dead , so he was never touched ever once despite of battles number .


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## DavyChan (Sep 18, 2015)

Location: Bell Test Grounds
Distance: 15m 
Knowledge: Manga
Mindset: Kill, IC
Restrictions: Afternoon Tiger, Naruto's clones, FRS, Edo Tensei, Katon: Bakufū Ranbu, Mokuton, BM (Killer Bee), Izanagi, Summons
Stipulations: Kakashi's eye sight is restored, Cloaked speedsters start in their respective forms, Tobirama can use GFK through his tags (doesn't need to sacrifice his body) and has 15 tagged kunai & Katana, assume Minato can remain in SM indefinitely (his shunshin is now on par with KCM Naruto, has danger sense & chakra sense, can use Senpo Odama Rasengan) and has 30 tagged kunai, Naruto's highest form cloak allowed is BM humanoid (no avatar), Bee can use tentacle manifestations while in V2. Minato has everyone on his team pre-tagged, Tobirama has everyone on his team pre-tagged

Scenario 2: Raw: No restrictions, added stipulations are thrown out of the window, all start and peak in the respective versions displayed below

Cloaked Speedsters:
(Pre-Rikudo) BM Humanoid Naruto w/ Mini tails 
V2 Ei 
7th Gated Gai
V2 Killer Bee

vs.

Hax Speedsters:
MS Kakashi
MS Obito
Tobirama
Alive SM Minato 


*wth is all of that. talk in english sir.*


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## Gibbs (Sep 18, 2015)

I'd bet a Frog Fu attack from Naruto would hit Obito.


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## LostSelf (Sep 18, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @lostself
> Did you and Kishi have a dinner Convo about gai slowing down ?
> 
> Hypocrite



So you mean to say that Gaara's sand and Lee are faster than red Gai? Ohh the Minato wank. Dare to make another character god level just to hype him.

Yeah. I won't waste my time anymore. Sorry.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 18, 2015)

> So you mean to say that Gaara's sand and Lee are faster than red Gai? Ohh the Minato wank. Dare to make another character god level just to hype him.


If you had read the manga ,then you will notice that Gai made several laps arround Madara and used 5 air cannons before Gaara and Lee arrived while Minato used two consecutive FTG at a very short  distance .


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## LostSelf (Sep 18, 2015)

What you're saying would be valid if Lee and Gaara acted before Gai used the 4 cannons.

But that didn't happen. Lee and Gaara acted _after_ Gai attacked Madara. So, while Gai was moving towards Madara, Lee threw a Kunai faster than Gai, Minato used Hiraishin, Gaara used sand, Kakashi climbed on Gaara's sand went ahead of Gai too.

So, or Lee's Kunai throwing speed, Gaara's sand and Minato's reflexes are all faster than Gai, or we go with logic and say that Gai slowed down.

But if we give Minato all those crazy feats, then at the very least let's not be greedy and give it to Gaara and Lee too, because they two would deserve it.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 18, 2015)

Minato maid the strategy :


While Gaara was transporting Kakashi , Gai made several laps arround Madara :


Then while 6 gates Lee was using his Shunshin , he strikes Madara with 4 conecutive air cannons :

*Spoiler*: __ 








Before the fifth air cannon ,the distance between Lee and GudoDamas was about ten of times shorter than Gai that's why the kunai was there at the right moment :


Then finaly Minato used two consecutive FTG to teleport GudoDamas :


With just a little bit of reflexion , all manga feats are logic .


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## LostSelf (Sep 18, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Minato maid the strategy :
> 
> 
> While Gaara was transporting Kakashi , Gai made several laps arround Madara :
> ...



Lee wasn't making his "Shunshing". There's something you deliberately (i hope not) left out.

First of all, let's go with Gaara. Who wasn't going anywhere considering the panel before, he's with them:



Gaara was not seen in the panel you provided because he didn't fit there.

Unless you tell me that Gaara read Minato's mind... Something unlikely. However, let's give it the benefit of the doubt and continue.

This can't be more simple.

One panel shows Gai moving towards Madara.
Next Panel shows Lee throwing a Kunai (Wich means he did while Gai already was moving)
Next panel is the Kunai in front of Gai.

Lee never, ever moved before Gai was dashing towards Juudara in his final step.



So, for you to take Minato's feat valid, you should take Lee's, too. Lee then can grab a Kunai and throw it at red Gai and kill him, considering his Kunai greatly outpaced Gai.

Now let's go with Gaara again.

Gaara lifted his arm to lift Kakashi while Gai was already moving, after Lee threw the Kunai:



And the sand reached in front of Gai? Seriously? Even if Gaara was below Madara. Getting the sand up there before Gai is an incredible feat, considering his sand couldn't keep up with Joki Boy.

It's as simple as the panels are putting it, wich is like i said.

Gai moves to make his last step. Lee throws the Kunai, wich outpaced Gai, Minato takes away the TS balls, Gaara lift his arm and the sand goes up there with Kakashi...

Before Gai finished only one step?

Sorry, but that's not logical at all. Gaara shouldn't even be able to lift his arm before Gai moved the incredibly short distance he was from Madara, considering the huge speed gap in them. 

Not all panels are logical. And this is one of the biggest ilogical stuff in the manga. Coupled with Sasuke moving his arm faster than KCM Minato, etc.

Or we put Minato god tier, along with Gaara and Lee. Or none of them.

Edit: Lee didn't shunshin there either. He just threw a Kunai. Or are we going to say he shunshined there from his position and threw a Kunai before Red Gai moved a inch?


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## hbcaptain (Sep 19, 2015)

> Gaara was not seen in the panel you provided because he didn't fit there.
> 
> Unless you tell me that Gaara read Minato's mind... Something unlikely. However, let's give it the benefit of the doubt and continue.


Well , he arrives after the 4 consecutive air cannons of Gai , delet the laps arroud Madara ... I don't know what you want to prove but *Gaara will never be just a bit as fast as Yagai .*



> And the sand reached in front of Gai? Seriously? Even if Gaara was below Madara. Getting the sand up there before Gai is an incredible feat, considering his sand couldn't keep up with Joki Boy.


Gaara was here after 4 air cannons of Gai while and he was at the whole opposite side after every strike plus he need some time to charge every punch . So no it isn't incredible at all .




> Next Panel shows Lee throwing a Kunai (Wich means he did while Gai already was moving)
> Next panel is the Kunai in front of Gai.


I don't know if you are trolling but next two pages , Gai used 4 consecutive air cannons ,* and the next page Lee was at exactly at the same positions of Gudo Dama while Gai was about tens of times further that's why he has the time to launch a Kunai , *you just try to prove nonsens ,  , Lee will never be even a little as fast as Yagai .

Plus , I don't know if you know , but FTG is infinite speed , Minato has just to think to activate it , I don't see where is the nonsens here .


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## Icegaze (Sep 19, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> So you mean to say that Gaara's sand and Lee are faster than red Gai? Ohh the Minato wank. Dare to make another character god level just to hype him.
> 
> Yeah. I won't waste my time anymore. Sorry.



Hypocrite 
I take that as an obvious no then 

Won't bother with ur pointless A wank either

What's logical in grazing someone nose the first time only for said person to turn their back and shit blitz u the second time 

What's logical about calling said person the stuff of legend and someone who could never be best if on first attempt u almost killed that person 17 years ago .


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## Icegaze (Sep 19, 2015)

To be honest any imbecile should know minato feat in the gai panel is an interception feat which has never even been remotely logical 

Haku being faster than war arc Kakashi, suigetsu being faster than A , rock lee in lower gates being much much faster than kamui self wrap 

It's all bullshit . What I don't get from the likes of lost self and davizwiz is when those feats are validated especially lee's feat but not minato interception which is just as bullshit as the ones mentioned above 

The only thing that matters here is A decades later felt minato was legendary and minato laughably blitz him the second time and countered him easily the first 

Only 1 of them was worried in their encounter .


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 19, 2015)

Lmao you love that Haku example of mirror jumping across the battlefield, which he did to Kakashi twice (maybe you needed it a third time to consider his speed valid?)

I don't really care about your opinion as it pertains to the exchange with Lee & the Truthseekers, you've previously denied canon evidence as far as the fist on the nose with Minato & Ei in this same very thread, and then called yourself "silly" afterwards for challenging it 

You actually needed proof that he touched his nose, when the guy is clearly touching his nose in a clear-as-day caption. 

Failing to see when one guy's fist is touching another guy's nose with a close up of said nose and fist is an indication you don't belong in a debate about high-speed exchanges.

Lee dodged a truthseeker while carrying a man's dead weight, Lee reacted to truthseekers being fired and threw a kunai in their trajectory. This happened, whether you personally consider them valid or not does not matter one bit, they ARE speed feats, and they ARE Rock Lee's.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 19, 2015)

> Minato & Ei in this same very thread,


Yeah , since Teleportation isn't speed , Minato & Ei both have nearly the same speed . and Minato with FTG>=Ei&Bee .

And Lee didn't dodge GudoDama , it's just that Madara can't throught it up to 70m away from him . If you observe Minato's explanation picture , it's the same when Lee evade the GudoDama :



*Spoiler*: __


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## Icegaze (Sep 19, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Lmao you love that Haku example of mirror jumping across the battlefield, which he did to Kakashi twice (maybe you needed it a third time to consider his speed valid?)
> 
> I don't really care about your opinion as it pertains to the exchange with Lee & the Truthseekers, you've previously denied canon evidence as far as the fist on the nose with Minato & Ei in this same very thread, and then called yourself "silly" afterwards for challenging it
> 
> ...



And u deny minato being faster than 8th gate gai since he intercepted him

I don't care about ur opinion either 

It's just as canon


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## kingcools (Sep 19, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> You actually needed proof that he touched his nose, when the guy is clearly touching his nose in a clear-as-day caption.



thats not clear at all because of the angle the panel is drawn from. He could touch minatos nose or he could not, both is possible.
From Ei's talk about minato being faster blabla i'd go with the latter.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 19, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> And u deny minato being faster than 8th gate gai since he intercepted him
> 
> I don't care about ur opinion either
> 
> It's just as canon


He's able to mentally initiate a teleport technique faster than 8th Gate Gai can propel himself to his target 20m away with a *single *air swim kick for a final attack. 

Doesn't make him faster than him in reflexes, ground movement, shunshin, or limb speed.

Red Gai:
>Hits Judara with Evening Elephant multiple times via multiple angles while air swimming (reduced speed)
>Punches him directly in the back while Judara is looking at him and has time to react, while air swimming (reduced speed)

Enhanced-Form Tireless Minato:
>SM Minato FTGs right in front of Judara, loses an arm and gets hit two more times by Judara, never FTG's, never touches him
>KCM Minato loses an arm and gets a bomb placed on him without realizing it, against inferior Juubi Jin Obito before he can FTG, never touches him
>BM Minato uses FTG to blindside from behind with a bulding-sized Rasengan, against inferior Juubi Jin Obito who is tagged already, Obito reacts and puts up Goudama wall, never touches him

As it pertains to these three versions of these characters:
Speed:

Red Gai on Ground

----- Gap the size of the Heavens -----

Red Gai Sky Swimming

--- Gap ---

One Rinnegan Judara

----- Gap the size of the Heavens -----

Any version of Minato​


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## Icegaze (Sep 19, 2015)

it means he has the reactions to use hirashin twice before gai can move 
Therefore he is reacting to 8th gate gai as the manga showed


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 19, 2015)

He was moving.. he kicked one time to propel himself. If Gai kicks 14 more times in that time frame, Minato isn't doing shit, and he is easily capable of kicking more than one time before Madara can shield himself and truthseekers are fired/reach him. 

There is a massive gap between their speeds as shown when Minato fought Jubito with the aid of Kurama's chakra forms, and when he fought Judara with Sage Mode, all the while never touching any of them, and being trashed by them with either delayed FTG or no FTG being used in reaction whatsoever. 

The greatest possible indication that he's no where near him in any form is Jubito reacting to BM Minato who FTG'd behind him and attempted to hit him with a building-sized Rasengan. Jubito reacts, puts up Goudama wall, despite him being pre-tagged and attacked from an area he is not looking, and Minato having the speed/reach increase of Bijuu Mode.

Jubito being the guy who is inferior to Juubi Jin Madara, Juubi Jin Madara being the person Gai hit right in the back with a punch while he was looking at him, and the person that sliced off SM Minato's hand, kicked it, and then roundhouse kicked him before he could use FTG or move.


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## Icegaze (Sep 19, 2015)

He intercepted him
He got to a location before gai did 

That simple . He intercepted goudama that was too fast for obito to self wrap

Can't see how u milk 6 gate lee feat yet somehow deny this one so hard

Then go so far off topic 

Point was can minato evade an enhanced A and he can easily . That simple 

team hax simply outperform the others . Better combinations and better skill set


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 19, 2015)

He got to a location that Gai couldn't get to because he decides to air kick once, this is true. 

Base Minato w/ FTG is inferior to SM Minato w/ FTG.

SM Minato w/ FTG is inferior to KCM Minato w/ FTG.

KCM Minato w/ FTG is inferior to BM Minato w/ FTG.

BM Minato w/ FTG is inferior to Jubito.

Jubito is inferior to One Rinnegan Judara.

One Rinnegan Judara is inferior to Air Kicking Red Gai. 

Air Kicking Red Gai is inferior to Ground Running Red Gai. 

This is true.


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## Icegaze (Sep 19, 2015)

lol so is onoki faster on the ground than in the air ? Cuz he flying thanks to a technique . Gai kicking the air gives him flight not different really 

Prove gai is slower in the air 

I'll wait 

Need that scan


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 19, 2015)

> lol so is onoki faster on the ground than in the air ?


Nope, Onoki can fly in every angle conceivable through the air supernaturally, and float.

Gai propels himself through the air in linear angles opposite the direction he is kicking by natural means. 

>Fallacious comparison based on mechanics 
>One character's ability to travel faster through a flying technique has nothing to do with another character's travel speed through a completely different non-flying technique 
>100x the strength in muscles easily allows Gai faster speed through the use of them on the ground
>The Flash also can propel himself through the air, and float on it, with the speed of his body's movements (arms, legs) pushing it, while doing this, however, his speed is no where close to what it is when running on a solid or liquid surface 


> Prove gai is slower in the air


Yagai, are we done here?


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## Icegaze (Sep 20, 2015)

What about yagai? Looool

Gai moves in the air are linear yet he forms a perfect circle easily several times around Madara 

lol

A ain't touching minato and never did . End of that


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## ARGUS (Sep 20, 2015)

Guy haters or minato fanboys with their usual lack luster, sub par BS 

SM Minato against Madara, 


KCM Minato against Juubito (much slower than Madara) 

*Spoiler*: __ 









7th gate guy against madara, 



8th gate guy against madara, 


could the manga have made it any clearer that Guy is on an entire different league, in the 7th gate, let alone the 8th gate, 


and people are saying that Base Minato is faster than 8th gate guy 

so in terms of  speed

8th gate guy >>>>>>> 7th gate Guy >> KCM Minato > SM minato > Base Minato


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## hbcaptain (Sep 20, 2015)

You are talking about moves speed and we are talking about FTG speed dudes , it's abvious that 8/7 gates Gay moves are much faster than any Minato version .

If he attacks he dies , if he just tries teleporting to escape (with FTK Kunais already prepared) he will already do it just like here :


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## Icegaze (Sep 20, 2015)

@Argus I would agree so long as u agree that interception feats are entirely BS 
therefore 6th gate lee has no speed feats at all to suggest he can do anything really 


but yes I don't see how on earth 8th gate gai would be slower than minato


the same way A being even slightly close to minato speed is laughable at best

 odd how u forgot to show hirudora being cut through easily by juudara though. bias much?


also 1 handed ninja being compared to a ninja at full power...oh the bias continues 

unless u think 7th gate gai can perform as well with 1 hand. do let me know


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## hbcaptain (Sep 20, 2015)

It seems that a lot can't make a difference between :
-FTG attacks when ennemy isn't marked .
-FTG attacks when ennemy is marked .
-FTG defensive dodging with preparation


*I-FTG attacks when ennemy is marked .:*

general rule : If the ennemy is marked ,Juubi Jinchuriki or not he will be striked .

Examples :

-Tobirama used FTG to telport the GudoDama before KCM Minato who is much faster can en his move , *and Obito JJ didn't have time to react to Tobirama :*

*Spoiler*: __ 








-Obito JJ can't dodge two consecutive FTG (normal FTG + Hiraishin mawashi) :

*Spoiler*: __ 









-Obito JJ can't react to SM Naruto :

*Spoiler*: __ 









*II-FTG attacks when ennemy isn't marked .:*

general rule : If the ennemy has much better reflexes and very quick move he can dodge the FTG user .

Examples :

-SM Madara who is much slower than Obito JJ avoided Tobirama's HiraishinGiri :


-KCM Minato who is much faster than Tobirama lost his arm against Obito JJ :

*Spoiler*: __ 








-SM Minato who is much faster than Tobirama lost his second arm against Madara JJ :

*Spoiler*: __ 









*III--FTG defensive dodging with preparation :*

General rule : If FTG Kunais are laready prepared , the FTG can avoid any ennemie's attack at any distance , he has juts to think if he wants to escape.

-Base Minato can use two consecutive FTG in a very short distance between 8 gates Gai and Madara JJ's Gudo Damas (plus GudoDamas are faster than Madara JJ himself) :



*Conclusion :* depending on situation and FTG user toughts , he can be blited or not , but if he want just to escape he can easily do it .


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## hbcaptain (Sep 20, 2015)

Delet post .


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## Hachibi (Sep 20, 2015)

You would have a point about JJ being striked by Hiraishin if this didn't happen:


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## Icegaze (Sep 20, 2015)

Can't say I disagree with hpcatpain post
When jj obito can be hit by the likes of Sm naruto thanks to hirashin

It marked its a lot easier for the hirashin user to hit you 

I mean even obito couldn't phase through when marked

Yet am amped version of obito could laughably phase through jj Madara who is several tiers above every single character bar sasuke ,naruto and kaguya 

Juubito blocked a hirashin attack after being trolled by it 3 times before 

Hardly proof of anything poster above


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## hbcaptain (Sep 20, 2015)

Obito prepared giant arms before the strike , he anticipated the attack he was blirzed too many times  by the same way .


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## Hachibi (Sep 20, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Obito prepared giant arms before the strike , he anticipated the attack he was blirzed too many times  by the same way .



And? Anticipating the attack mean shit when you can't block/dodge it.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 20, 2015)

He anticipated it in the smart way like Shikamaru not the move/reflexes way , the arms was already prepared before FTG use .


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## Hachibi (Sep 20, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> He anticipated it in the smart way not the move way , the arms was already prepared before FTG use .



I'm talking about the Gudodama.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 20, 2015)

First , Obito used chakra arms to hold the giant rasengan , all the GudoDama's were behind him :


The he used GudoDama's to definitively stop the attack , because GudoDama's changing form are slow at that battle level :


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## Hachibi (Sep 20, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> First , Obito used chakra arms to hold the giant rasengan , all the GudoDama's were behind him :
> 
> 
> The he used GudoDama's to definitively stop the attack , because GudoDama's changing form are slow at that battle level :



Fuck, I got the order wrong.

It doesn't really matter tho, since bar him looking behind him (and that's just him looking where they will come form) there's nothing indicating that he already created the arms before the Father-Son Rasengan.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 20, 2015)

> It doesn't really matter tho, since bar him looking behind him (and that's just him looking where they will come form) there's nothing indicating that he already created the arms before the Father-Son Rasengan.


He was blitzed three consecutive times the same way and he didn't anticipate the thing , plus if he is marked , if he was teleported Kyubi's rasengan will be already at his back not jsut behind him .


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## Hachibi (Sep 20, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> He was blitzed three consecutive times the same way and he didn't anticipate the thing , plus if he is marked , if he was teleported Kyubi's rasengan will be already at his back not jsut behind him .



I wouldn't really say that:

-First FTG surprised him by seeing his expression.

-Second FTG wasn't surprising to him seeing his expression. It was the swap that surprised him.

-Third FTG didn't surprise him. It's Naruto damaging him that did surprise him.

Plus, he was marked by Tobirama so I don't know what you're talking about.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 20, 2015)

> -Second FTG wasn't surprising to him seeing his expression. It was the swap that surprised him.


Go read the manga .



> Third FTG didn't surprise him. It's Naruto damaging him that did surprise him.


It's just that his moves are too slow against FTG .
The forth FTG he prepared chakra arms before the teleportation .



> Plus, he was marked by Tobirama so I don't know what you're talking about.


Tobirama teleported the two Kyubis go read the manga .


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## Hachibi (Sep 20, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Go read the manga





Does he look like surprised to you?



> It's just that his moves are too slow against FTG .
> The forth FTG he prepared chakra arms before the teleportation .



I still don't see him preparing them. Literally the only panels he was in before the attack show him:
1) look behind him
2)Show his mark.



> Tobirama teleported the two Kyubis go read the manga .



Literally what I said.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 20, 2015)

> Does he look like surprised to you?


Luck of attention I was talking about SM Naruto . Plus yes , he wasn't surprised it's just that his moves aren't fast enough to dodge between two consecutive FTG .



> still don't see him preparing them. Literally the only panels he was in before the attack show him:
> 1) look behind him
> 2)Show his mark.


Yeah look behind him and show his mark , that prove that he anticipated the FTG use , and that's just normal because he experienced 3 times before at the same mark . So he used chakra arms before the FTG activation , otherwise he will get blittzed just like against  SM Naruto and the three times , he isn't fast enough to instantly dodging it .


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## Icegaze (Sep 20, 2015)

@hachibi
The exclamation mark in the panel u provided shows he is surprised 
Otherwise why the exclamation mark ?


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## Hachibi (Sep 20, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Luck of attention I was talking about SM Naruto . Plus yes , he wasn't surprised it's just that his moves aren't fast enough to dodge between two consecutive FTG .



What does that mean?

Plus, his moves kinda are considering he blocked the Gudodama send back by Tobirama's clone. with his own



> Yeah look behind him and show his mark , that prove that he anticipated the FTG use , and that's just normal because he experienced 3 times before at the same mark . So he used chakra arms before the FTG activation , otherwise he will get blitzed just like against  SM Naruto and the three times , he isn't fast enough to instantly dodging it .



Then, why didn't Kishi show it in a panel like he did with those flame thing on Juubito's back.


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## Hachibi (Sep 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @hachibi
> The exclamation mark in the panel u provided shows he is surprised
> Otherwise why the exclamation mark ?



Considering his face, that was only for a brief moment tho.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 20, 2015)

> Considering his face, that was only for a brief moment tho.


And considering that , his moves are slow compared to FTG activation .


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## Icegaze (Sep 20, 2015)

@hachibi 
Still surprised however brief 
Doesn't change that


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## Hachibi (Sep 20, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> And considering that , his moves are slow compared to FTG activation .



You do realise that FTG's activation speed is equal to his (Tobirama/Minato)'s reaction right?

FTG activation speed=/=FTG travel speed.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 20, 2015)

> You do realise that FTG's activation speed is equal to his (Tobirama/Minato)'s reaction right?


It dependts what do you mean by reaction , if reaction=thinking , then yeah , if it's moving or dodging , then not .

Plus , Minato and Tobirama can perfectly see through Obito and Madara JJ moves and think about it , plus Shinobi moves speed ar by faaaar slower than their thinking speed . 

That's why Obito JJ was blitzed 4 consecutive times using FTG while he was marked .


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## Hachibi (Sep 21, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Plus , Minato and Tobirama can perfectly see through Obito and Madara JJ moves and think about it , plus Shinobi moves speed ar by faaaar slower than their thinking speed .



Must be why they didn't get blitzed by both JJ -oh wait


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## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

> Must be why they didn't get blitzed by both JJ -oh wait



*Spoiler*: __ 



It seems that a lot can't make a difference between :
-FTG attacks when ennemy isn't marked .
-FTG attacks when ennemy is marked .
-FTG defensive dodging with preparation . 




Then show me when Obito JJ or Madara JJ blitzed a FTG user *while they were marked by him* .


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## Hachibi (Sep 21, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tell me one thing: How is being marked revelant?

Because last time I checked Hiraishin doesn't increase your reaction at all.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

Yeah FTG doesn't change but Iam not talking about that , if the ennemy isn"t marked , the user can't teleport instantly into fim , he teleport himself to the mark first , then strike , and because of that JJ can easily blitz him because their moves are much faster and the mark is somewhere futher than them . And thats why if a JJ is marked even SM Naruto can strike him with ease like I post previously , and please you must think before posting nonsens .

Example :
If Madara was already marked , he will be already cut by Tobirama's HiraishinGiri when the exclamation point appear beside his face :


And we all know that Obito JJ is by far faster thant SM Madara .


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## Hachibi (Sep 21, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Yeah FTG doesn't change but Iam not talking about that , if the ennemy isn"t marked , the user can't teleport instantly into fim , he teleport himself to the mark first , then strike , and because of that JJ can easily blitz him because their moves are much faster and the mark is somewhere futher than them . And thats why if a JJ is marked even SM Naruto can strike him with ease like I post previously , and please you must think before posting nonsens .
> 
> Example :
> If Madara was already marked , he will be already cut by Tobirama's HiraishinGiri when the exclamation point appear beside his face :
> ...



.

Please explain how him being marked or not is revelant to the fact that they can't react to him 

Them managing to touch him because marking is irrevelant. The point is that Hiraishin mean shit no matter where it is marked if you can't react to an attack.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

> Them managing to touch him because marking is irrevelant. The point is that Hiraishin mean shit no matter where it is marked if you can't react to an attack.


No , if the ennemy moves at the same speed or less , the user can create easily many openings and confuse him using FTG Kunai's , but if he is much faster he can react to his moves and blitz him before , because the FTG depends on Kunais position , and Kunai position depends on the user moves .

If you are marked , if you did'nt anticipate and prepar a counter before the FTG activation , you will be blitzed no matter what even if you are much faster . That's what the manga proves , if not show me examples .... Apparently you don't seem to envoy FTG users  . The manga shows us so many examples that prove what I said and you don't accept it . You are lucking objectivity .


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## Hachibi (Sep 21, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> > No , if the ennemy moves at the same speed or less , the user can create easily many openings and confuse him using FTG Kunai's , but if he is much faster he can react to his moves and blitz him before , because the FTG depends on Kunais position , and Kunai position depends on the user moves .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

> Good thing Juubi Jinchuriki are far, far, far faster than Minato.


I already said it JJ moves are by far faster than KCM Minato himself faster than his base version himself faster than Tobirama .



> Good thing I was talking about the opposite (aka, Hiraishin being irrevelant for dodging if you can't react in the first place).


Minato can percieve 8 gates Gai , Madara JJ , Obito JJ , his moves are a looooooooooot slower but his FTG activation is a loooooooooot faster , so he can easily dodge them if he wants but he can't blitz them just by himself (or he will be instantly killed) , only if they were marked once .


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## Hachibi (Sep 21, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Minato can percieve 8 gates Gai , Madara JJ , Obito JJ , his moves are a looooooooooot slower but his FTG activation is a loooooooooot faster , so he can easily dodge them if he wants but he can't blitz them just by himself (or he will be instantly killed) , only if they were marked once .



Yeah no. If he can easily dodge them then why the fuck did he lost his arm against the latter two?


Plus, FTG activation speed=Minato's reaction, which mean shit because he couldn't hiraishin out of the way before he lose his arm.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

Minato said to Gai to not stop at all and continue his attacks like he did ===>Minato can see 8 Gates Gai moves .

Plus it's obvious .


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## Icegaze (Sep 21, 2015)

people in the sidelines have always been able to react to attacks much faster than when its aimed at them 

bee being able to grow a bloody tentacle quicker than a hirashin strike. yet his much faster brother couldn't do shit

as for being marked and u wont be able to defend its false. since bee did defend himself against minato. its about anticipation 

since the hirashin user isn't moving at all, u cant really predict their movement from A to B. in the same way MS sasuce could see bee movement and called them linear 

however if u can anticipate where the hirashin user will be based on circumstance, then blocking them wont be an issue 

however the problem for the likes of A lies in the fact that he cant anticipate where minato will be if they are 30 kunai on the battlefield 

gai doesn't have to do such since he can AoE blast the area. 

however here its a team setting which helps minato quite abit. as there is no reason if he has a kunai in kamui box land he cant hirashin there for safety


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## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

> bee being able to grow a bloody tentacle quicker than a hirashin strike. yet his much faster brother couldn't do shit


Yeah I agree , and it's what I said before :

*Spoiler*: __ 



*If you are marked , if you did'nt anticipate and prepar a counter before the FTG activation* , you will be blitzed no matter what even if you are much faster . That's what the manga proves , if not show me examples .... Apparently you don't seem to envoy FTG users  . The manga shows us so many examples that prove what I said and you don't accept it . You are lucking objectivity .




But genrerally (Obito JJ feats) , you won't be able to dodge or blocking attacks when you are marked .


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## Hachibi (Sep 21, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Minato said to Gai to not stop at all and continue his attacks like he did ===>Minato can see 8 Gates Gai moves .



Yet:


Despite seeing Juubito preparing to attack him he couldn't Hiraishin in time before losing his arm.

Inb4 "duh duh he wasn't marked" which _mean fuck all here_. We're talking about Minato's reaction here, not Hiraishin.



> Plus it's obvious .



ck


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## Icegaze (Sep 21, 2015)

But what I don't get Hachibi is he has a clear cut feat of using hirashin twice before gai could move

U can't erase that no matter how hard you try 

Regardless of what happened previously 

Could be as simple as at point blank range juubito can strike quicker than gai can move from point A to B which really isn't weird at all 

Same way it's entirely silly to believe A from 10 m away will hit u quicker than say itachi at point blank range 

Even though A is much faster , it will undoubtably take him longer

Ps: sharingan gives better prediction for some reason , obito had 2 eyes . Juudara had 1 eye taken away and a part of shukaku and Hachibi taken away


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## Hachibi (Sep 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> But what I don't get Hachibi is he has a clear cut feat of using hirashin twice before gai could move
> 
> U can't erase that no matter how hard you try
> 
> ...



Not really. We saw Gai nearly blitzing JJ Madara (who before this cutted Minato's arm at approximatively the same distance), and since SM Madara is physically > Rinnegan Obito (nearly blitzing SM Naruto (who thanks to precog has better reaction than his KCM self)while Rinnegan Obito couldn't do quite the same thing to KCM Naruto).

Plus distance is kind of irrevelant due to the fuckload of speed that Red Gai has.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

> Despite seeing Juubito preparing to attack him he couldn't Hiraishin in time before losing his arm.
> 
> Inb4 "duh duh he wasn't marked" which _mean fuck all here_. We're talking about Minato's reaction here, not Hiraishin.


I have already explained it many times , if Minato moves one arm , Obito JJ can move two/three times his arms at the same time . That's why he striked Minato . 

If not , then SM Naruto moves speed >>>>KCM Minato speed because he easily striked Obito JJ and that is just abusrd .

Read my explicative post , apparently you're melting things , apparently you don't seem to make differnce between :
-FTG when the ennemy is already marked .
-FTG when the ennemy isn't marked .
-FTG Escaping .

Go read my explicative post many times before responding .

Plus I alraedy countred your feat now , and Minato can see throught 8 Gates Gai moves like I already posted , it's a cannon feat , you can't do a thing about it , The manga is talking .


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## Hachibi (Sep 21, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> I have already explained it many times , if Minato moves one arm , Obito JJ can move two/three times his arms at the same time . That's why he striked Minato .
> 
> If not , then SM Naruto moves speed >>>>KCM Minato speed because he easily striked Obito JJ and that is just abusrd .
> 
> ...



I already did and it really is the same shit "duh duh if he was marked, if he was MARKED", which I already said is really irrevelant.



> Plus I alraedy countred your feat now , and Minato can see throught 8 Gates Gai moves



Do you know what a outlier is? ck



> like I already posted , it's a cannon feat , you can't do a thing about it , The manga is talking .



Just like when Sakura could move before the Juubi arm could hit her and that Kakashi could kamui more than small object (seen with the Gezo arm), but hey I saw you doing a thing about it


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## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

> which I already said is really irrevelant.


*Feats alraedy showed us many times that's very revelant and now you're just ignoring feats dude , you are an idiot just like  starwander ,*

Then go read manga before saying something *as absurd as **KCM Minato moves speed <<<<<<SM naruto moves speed or KCM Minato moves speed <<<<<<<< Tobirama's moves speed .*


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## Hachibi (Sep 21, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> *Feats alraedy showed us many times that's very revelant and now you're just ignoring feats dude , you are an idiot just like  starwander ,*



Meanwhile, not only you go full ad hominem, but you can't read what I'm asking (aka, Minato's reaction feats).



> Then go read manga before saying something *as absurd as **KCM Minato moves speed <<<<<<SM naruto moves speed or KCM Minato moves speed <<<<<<<< Tobirama's moves speed .*



Literally never said that.

Anyways let's end this debate since it's turning into a mess.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

> aka, Minato's reaction feats


Red Gai , He said to him to not slow down , so he can clearly see his moves , then he can easily use the avoiding FTG .



> Literally never said that.


You are saying this :

*Spoiler*: __ 



I already did and it really is the same shit "duh duh if he was marked, if he was MARKED", which I already said is really irrevelant.



So you think that SM Naruto/Tobirama and KCM Minato was at the same situation , and :
-SM Naruto and Tobirama striked Obito JJ .
-Obito striked KCM Minato .
That means one absurd thing : Both Tobirama and SM Naruto >>>>> KCM Minato .



> Just like when Sakura could move before the Juubi arm could hit her and that Kakashi could kamui more than small object (seen with the Gezo arm), but hey I saw you doing a thing about it


You are really a troll , and you are just surching to trolling since *I GIVE YOU VERY LOGICAL ARGUMENTS AND YOU GIVE ME ABSRUD SHIT BECAUSE OF YOUR PREFERENCES .*
I HAVE ALREADY EXPLAINED SAKURA AND KAKASHI'S CASE BEFORE .


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## Hachibi (Sep 21, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Red Gai , He said to him to not slow down , so he can clearly see his moves , then he can easily use the avoiding FTG.



And I already told why it's illogical.




> You are saying this :
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



Yes, because both SM Naruto and Tobirama had to dodge shit form JJ Obito 

Stop putting wrong in my mouth please.



> You are really a troll , and you are just surching to trolling since *I GIVE YOU VERY LOGICAL ARGUMENTS AND YOU GIVE ME ABSRUD SHIT BECAUSE OF YOUR PREFERENCES .*
> I HAVE ALREADY EXPLAINED SAKURA AND KAKASHI'S CASE BEFORE .



Yes, because giving me random number (Sakura) and saying "because it isn't logical" (Kakashi, let's ignore the fact that you didn't counter the "why did he lost time touching everyone in the alliance when he can just do it with his chakra" and that Kakashi warped the Gedo's arm without it anyways) is sure countering my point. 

Also, ad hominem, again.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

> And I already told why it's illogical.


If it's illogical for you (not for me I have already explained why) , then : SM Naruto moves speed>>>>>>>>>KCM Minato moves speed , and it's totaly absurd .



> Yes, because both SM Naruto and Tobirama had to dodge shit form JJ Obito


JJ Obito can't even move......He was marked .

And yeah it's very logical Salura has a Rikudo speed ..... 
And yeah Kakashi can Kamui huge things likes Mazo's head while he said himself he can't do it alone ....
Then yeah , you're just saying bullshit and defending very irrationnal feats .


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## Hachibi (Sep 21, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> If it's illogical for you (not for me I have already explained why) , then : SM Naruto moves speed>>>>>>>>>KCM Minato moves speed , and it's totaly absurd .





>Comparing thing that cannot be compared.



> JJ Obito can't even move......He was marked .



Meanwhile, you still don't understand what I'm saying.



> And yeah it's very logical Salura has a Rikudo speed .....
> And yeah Kakashi can Kamui huge things likes Mazo's head while he said himself he can't do it alone ....
> Then yeah , you're just saying bullshit and defending very irrationnal feats .



Like you said, it happenned in the manga and their is nothing we can do about.

So you either accept them like you accept Minato > 8th Gate Gai in speed, or you don't and we're done here because I don't argue with people who use double standard.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

> Like you said, it happenned in the manga and their is nothing we can do about.


It didn"t happenend at all , Sakura was killed without Kakashi dude , go read the manga .



> So you either accept them like you accept Minato > 8th Gate Gai in speed, or you don't and we're done here because I don't argue with people who use double standard.


Well teleportation isn't speed (or it's infinite speed) , and FTG depends on Kunais , so I can't reely say it depends on situations , but it's sur that Minato can't touch 8 Gates Gai othewise he will get killed , Gai isn't marked , but he can avoid his attacks if Kunais are prepared .


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## Hachibi (Sep 21, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> It didn"t happenend at all , Sakura was killed without Kakashi dude , go read the manga.



Reread my post and tell me when did I say she would dodge it.

Go on, I'll wait.







> and FTG depends on Kunais , so I can't reely say it depends on situations , but it's sur that Minato can't touch 8 Gates Gai othewise he will get killed , Gai isn't marked , but he can avoid his attacks if Kunais are prepared .



That won't last long tho, and that actually depends on the distance.

But since even Ei could locate most of the kunai, this game of cat and mouse won't last long.


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## Icegaze (Sep 21, 2015)

Lol A couldn't locate most he thought he could 
Considering A knew nothing of the Kunai minato jumped to initially 
After the counter 

A also lacks 360 vision therefore can't see all Kunai while moving . 

U would also note minato already had a Kunai next to bee before the encounter even began . A didn't take that into account


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## Hachibi (Sep 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Lol A couldn't locate most he thought he could
> Considering A knew nothing of the Kunai minato jumped to initially
> After the counter
> 
> ...



He actually took into account most of them, he just didn't expect that the next place Minato would FTG to would be Bee himself.

At least that's how I interpreted it


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## Icegaze (Sep 21, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> He actually took into account most of them, he just didn't expect that the next place Minato would FTG to would be Bee himself.
> 
> At least that's how I interpreted it



Nope 
Not talking about bee being marked 

There was a Kunai next to bee already from the initial encounter 

Remember the first Kunai the cloud fodder saw . When they met minato 

A didn't take that into account now did he ?

That Kunai could have been teleported to if minato wanted to . However he had marked bee

So nope 

He also didn't notice the Kunai on the tree minato teleported to on the counter or he wouldn't have been so surprised


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