# Shonen with the best fight scenes.



## Thefirst. (Jan 14, 2010)

What Shonens have the best fight scenes? If possible please rank them in order.

I am not talking anime here but manga.


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## Proxy (Jan 14, 2010)

HxH 

Done and done.


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## hgfdsahjkl (Jan 14, 2010)

HxH first for me

love soul eater fights too


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## Tempproxy (Jan 14, 2010)

Change guy it's a manhwa but apart from it's country of origin it's pretty much a shonen. The fight scenes are very detailed and exhilarating but shit plot oh boy shit shit shit plot.


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## ArtieBoy (Jan 14, 2010)

One Piece
But i give HxH the win for technical aspect, Since i like fight games and all and its pretty technical once you know what your doing. 
I also like Soul eaters as well and even FMA fights. 
Im not gonna give it any real order


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## The Doctor (Jan 14, 2010)

Taikoubou vs Chou Koumei was cool


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## Kenju (Jan 14, 2010)

Mines our Dragonball and One Piece both of their fight scenes always entertain me.


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## Bubyrd Ratcatcher (Jan 14, 2010)

1.HxH
2.OP
3.YuYu Hakusho 
4.Naruto
5.KHR and Bleach


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## ArtieBoy (Jan 14, 2010)

Bubi said:


> 1.H&H
> 2.OP
> 3.YuYu Hakusho
> 4.Naruto
> 5.KHR and Bleach


what is Hunter and Hunter? 
is that a new shonen?


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## Haohmaru (Jan 14, 2010)

Hunter hunter that's what the Japanese people call it right? 

Anyway, I really liked Ippo before people got as fast as lightning and able to withstand 30 blows to the chin.


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## Bubyrd Ratcatcher (Jan 14, 2010)

ArtieBoy said:


> what is Hunter and Hunter?
> is that a new shonen?




 my bad gomen


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## Abigail (Jan 14, 2010)

ArtieBoy said:


> what is Hunter and Hunter?
> is that a new shonen?



If by new you mean almost 12 years old, then sure.


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## Bilaal (Jan 14, 2010)

1. JoJo's Bizarre Adventure
2. Veritas
3. Soul Eater
4. Kango Banchou
5. HunterxHunter


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## Tempproxy (Jan 14, 2010)

Dont get me wrong I read OP and it's not bad but good fight scenes? I mean really?


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## The Doctor (Jan 14, 2010)

Abigail said:


> If by new you mean almost 12 years old, then sure.


he was mocking the fact that the guy used "and" instead of "x"


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## Arkeus (Jan 14, 2010)

good fight scenes?
1°) HxH
2°) Soul eater
3°)...hard to find something. Maybe the death brigade manga, but that's morel lulz than anything.

Edit: right, psyren


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## Neelon (Jan 14, 2010)

Tempproxy said:


> Dont get me wrong I read OP and it's not bad but good fight scenes? I mean really?



little to no strategy and NAKAMAAA/punch/kick/slash/flashy stuff spamming sums up what happen in a One piece fight.

On topic:

1. Hunter x Hunter
2. Jojo's bizarre adventure
3. Baki the grappler (Orochi doppo is full of win )
4. Hajime no ippo (I only follow the anime though.)

5. Everything else. 
Honorable mentions: Soul eater, Psyren


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## Abigail (Jan 14, 2010)

The Doctor said:


> he was mocking the fact that the guy used "and" instead of "x"



Well, that's what I get for not looking all that carefully.


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## Bilaal (Jan 14, 2010)

Neelon said:


> little to no strategy and NAKAMAAA/punch/kick/slash/flashy stuff spamming sums up what happen in a One piece fight.
> 
> On topic:
> 
> ...


Hhhmmm, i need to change my post.


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## ArtieBoy (Jan 14, 2010)

Abigail said:


> Well, that's what I get for not looking all that carefully.


Not all of us can catch internet sarcasm.
Me included


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## armorknight (Jan 15, 2010)

Any of the Tekken Chinmi mangas. Clean and detailed fight scenes that flow very well from one to the next. The action is awesome and relatively realistic at the same time.


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## p-lou (Jan 15, 2010)

The Doctor said:


> Taikoubou vs Chou Koumei was cool



this fight is tres bon


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## p-lou (Jan 15, 2010)

p-lou said:


> this fight is tres bon


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## Prowler (Jan 15, 2010)

Hunter x Hunter
One Piece
Bleach
The list goes on..


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## robotnik (Jan 15, 2010)

keep listing then


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## p-lou (Jan 15, 2010)

now that's just a silly idea


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## Akatora (Jan 15, 2010)

I relly liked the main characters fights in Mx0

He fought using: Intimidation, provocation, wits and luck


Nice having a main character being the weak guy for once(but everyone think he is strong ^^ )

Hope soon to see something from this author again


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## Perseverance (Jan 15, 2010)

Dragonball z, some of the most unique and epic fights in history.


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## Gabe (Jan 15, 2010)

Dragon ball for me had the best fights. unlike the anime where the transformations seemed to take long they where well done in the manga. i also liked the fight scenes in yu yu hakusho, and rouroni kenshin and FMA. also right now i like the fights in psyren they are really well done.


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## The Doctor (Jan 15, 2010)

p-lou said:


> this fight is tres bon


*Strategy*
strat·e·gy  (strætɪdʒɪ)
n. pl. strat·e·gies
1.
a. The science and art of using all the forces of a nation to execute approved plans as effectively as possible during peace or war.
b. The science and art of military command as applied to the overall planning and conduct of large-scale combat operations.
2. A plan of action resulting from strategy or intended to accomplish a specific goal. See Synonyms at plan.
3. The art or skill of using stratagems in endeavors such as politics and business.

*Tactic*
tac·tic  (tæktik)
n.
An expedient for achieving a goal; a maneuver.


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## Superstars (Jan 15, 2010)

Dragonball, Rurouni Kenshin, YYH, Bleach and Naruto.


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## valerian (Jan 15, 2010)

Hunter x Hunter and JJBA.


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## Tash (Jan 15, 2010)

Kenshin fights are awful what the hell?


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## Rokudaime (Jan 15, 2010)

JJBA and Naruto.

The rest kinda not interesting for me.


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## ForteAnly (Jan 15, 2010)

Dragon Ball for me.


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## Neelon (Jan 16, 2010)

> Naruto, Bleach





> Shonen with the best fights scenes



Lol wut? That's beyond my comprehension.
Can someone cares to explain why?


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## Devil King Sanji (Jan 16, 2010)

Hunter x Hunter. Out of the Shonen manga I've read... majority of the time that plot induced stupidity doesn't cut it. Raw experience and the the unpredictability of the opponent is what makes or breaks a battle.


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## MdB (Jan 16, 2010)

Bleach 

Hahaha

Bleach


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## Evul Overload (Jan 16, 2010)

JJBA, FMA, HxH, OP (except Enies Lobby), some early DB fights, Deadman Wonderland, etc.

People who answer with Naruto, Bleach & Fairy Tail should be punished.


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## Jugger (Jan 16, 2010)

Negima
History strongest diciple kenichi
Toriko
Some of Fairy Tail fight
Rave
Soul Eater
Hunter x Hunter
Psyren


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## Ulqourria (Jan 16, 2010)

One piece or Hunter x Hunter.


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## God Movement (Jan 16, 2010)

Dragon Ball.


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## Blade (Jan 16, 2010)

Fist of The North Star
GetBackers
DB
Bleach (i still like the fights)
HXH
One Piece

edit: Hitman Reborn and DGM has awesome fights as well


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## Raviene (Jan 16, 2010)

i would like to say Holyland but then again its not shounen so i'd have to say Veritas coz of the art and... well dogfighting w/ ki-blasts looks awesome


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## UrumiGTO (Jan 16, 2010)

hmmm
fights in magans which i really liked : (No order)
HxH (pure awesome)
Parasite! (those kind of mangas should be more writed, not shounen though...) 
Soul Eater (very good fights , enojoyed all black star fights which were epic and ofcourse others people fights)
FMA (ITS DAMN FMA!)
Flame of Recca   (for some reason i enojoyed 80% of the fights)
One piece ( execpt arc with zombies, and fights are not rly good but not bad)

Mangas which fights i really disliked
bleach, naruto 
(For example bleach , they use bankai then explain everything about their bankai and how it works and only then use it. Those fights are created for 15 years old school boy. Bullshit. not to metion random and stupid power ups
Naruto , The first how they introduced ninjas and jutsus in part one was truly great i really enojoyed those kind of fights like Zabuza x Kakashi. Later it became bleach level fights for retarded children. Crap)


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## Superstars (Jan 16, 2010)

Neelon said:


> Lol wut? That's beyond my comprehension.
> Can someone cares to explain why?



Cause Bleach and Naruto's fights actually are intense and the characters unique abilities just add to it. The battles in those manga get attention to details most of the time.

Dragonball Z takes this though, YYH had some good ones, Saint Seiya did  too.


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## Kellogem (Jan 16, 2010)

I like the fights of D. Gray-man, Psyren and Soul Eater...


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## Tranquil Fury (Jan 16, 2010)

DB
YYH
Flame of Recca
Saint Seiya
FMA

I used to like Bleach and Naruto once upon a time.


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## Tempproxy (Jan 16, 2010)

I  know it's all opinions and all that but I really cant see how OP has great fight scenes. Would people care to name a few? I tend to find OP fight's to be all over the place.


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## Evul Overload (Jan 16, 2010)

Tempproxy said:


> I  know it's all opinions and all that but I really cant see how OP has great fight scenes. Would people care to name a few? I tend to find OP fight's to be all over the place.



Luffy vs. Crocodile
Zoro vs. Mister 1
Luffy vs. Enel
Ussop vs. Luffy
The whole Shabondy Fights
All Water 7 fights
Luffy vs. Arlong
The Moria fight
etc.


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## Tempproxy (Jan 16, 2010)

Evul Overload said:


> Luffy vs. Crocodile
> Zoro vs. Mister 1
> Luffy vs. Enel
> Ussop vs. Luffy
> ...



They were relevant fights sure but I don?t think they were well done, don?t get me wrong I am not saying OP is horrible just that showing fight scenes doesn?t seem to be Oda strong points.


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## Superstars (Jan 16, 2010)

Evul Overload said:


> Luffy vs. Crocodile
> Zoro vs. Mister 1
> Luffy vs. Enel
> Ussop vs. Luffy
> ...



The Moria fight sucked. Luffy just dominated him at the end even the Odz fight was terribly written. Zoro vs Ryumma was the only good written fight in TB. Luffy vs Arlong was lame too. Shark torpedo was boring and using his teeth as weapons was like facepalm. Water 7 fights sucked, Enies Lobby fights between Zoro and Kaku/Rob Lucci vs Luffy was good. 

Shabondy really had no fights, it basically was Pacafistas pushing rookies to the extreme and Kizaru pwning rookies and his encounter with Dark King and dang near all of thesefights were off-panel most of the time. 

Lol, how dare you put Ussopp vs Luffy that was weak, Luffy vs Enel's final fight wasn't good either but the first bout was pretty good. The only ones that were truly good on that list is Zoro vs Mr. 1 and Luffy vs Corcodile. Why didn't you menyion Sanji vs Bon Clay, Blackbeard vs ace ? that was one of the better fights in the story.

One Piece shouldn't be mentioned, Fights aren't it's forte.


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## Tash (Jan 16, 2010)

Phenom's actually right here.

Beyond interesting powers and applications One Piece fights aren't really much with a couple exceptions.


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## Jazzmatazz (Jan 16, 2010)

I love threads like these. Let's me find the hidden gems I've been missing out on. For this Hunter X Hunter one to be on so many lists...gotta peep it out now.

Anyway, out of what I've actually seen...

I just noticed that most of the best fight's I've read are all in seinen. Bleach's fights grate on me with all the talking, so I'll just say Naruto for now, as I just can't get into OP worth talking about.


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## Tash (Jan 16, 2010)

Superstars said:


> Cause Bleach and Naruto's fights actually are intense and the characters unique abilities just add to it. The battles in those manga get attention to details most of the time.



This part's wrong though.

Naruto fights are hilariously bad and Bleach fights are just shiny cliches.


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## robotnik (Jan 16, 2010)

who's the ^ (use bro) in your avatar

he looks so familiar


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## Unknown (Jan 16, 2010)

Naruto has great fights, and great draws in the fights (in some of them); Naruto vs Orochimaru:
this one
this one
this one
this one


*Spoiler*: __


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## Neelon (Jan 16, 2010)

robotnik said:


> who's the ^ (use bro) in your avatar
> 
> he looks so familiar



U-turn the badass friend from Weeds season 2 (or 1 ?)


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## robotnik (Jan 16, 2010)

haha oh yeah him

man did that show turn to crap fast after they left agrestic


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## ShaolinAce (Jan 16, 2010)

Gantz Dragonball and Bleach.


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## Superstars (Jan 16, 2010)

Tash said:


> This part's wrong though.
> 
> Naruto fights are hilariously bad and Bleach fights are just shiny cliches.



Yeah, of course cliche. But we can't factor out how some of the techniques/moves make them very entertaining sometimes. Naruto itself has had some clever thought in battles. Bleach got some good intense battles with some epic scenes.


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## UrumiGTO (Jan 16, 2010)

Naruto has clever moves ? give me an example please
bleach has some epic panels but fights it self is kindergarden level and stupid


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## Blade (Jan 16, 2010)

Sorry now, for example you didn't like Ichigo vs Byakuya battle?, or Ichigo vs Grimm ?(their final one) or Kenpachi vs Nnoitra? or even H2Ichigo vs R2 Emoquiorra?

just say it's personal taste, don't accuse the fights


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## UrumiGTO (Jan 16, 2010)

i said give me an example in naruto 
like i said in bleach there rly few epic panels with kenpachi and r2 ichigo but does it qualify to be a good fight?


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## KidTony (Jan 16, 2010)

HxH. Nothing comes close


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## KidTony (Jan 16, 2010)

Dark Emperor said:


> Sorry now, for example you didn't like Ichigo vs Byakuya battle?



No



> , or Ichigo vs Grimm ?(their final one)



No



> or Kenpachi vs Nnoitra?



No



> or even H2Ichigo vs R2 Emoquiorra?



No


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## Bilaal (Jan 16, 2010)

JoJo's Bizarre Adventure has the best fights.


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## Hatifnatten (Jan 16, 2010)

All fights in all shounens are ripped from JoJo's bizarre adventure. So go figure.

I'll punch in the sack anybody who mentions naruto here.


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## Bilaal (Jan 16, 2010)

Hatifnatten said:


> All fights in all shounens are ripped from JoJo's bizarre adventure. So go figure.
> 
> I'll punch in the sack anybody who mentions naruto here.


 That would explain the large gap in fight quality.


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## Superstars (Jan 16, 2010)

UrumiGTO said:


> Naruto has clever moves ? give me an example please
> bleach has some epic panels but fights it self is kindergarden level and stupid



Ichigo vs Byakuya, Grimmjaw vs Ichigo, kenpachi vs Tousen, Hell most battles in Soul Society were good. 

Have you read any Naruto fights at all? Naruto has decent clever strategies in their battles. Part 1 fights, Saskue vs Naruto valley of the end hell even Naruto vs Pain battle had some clever twists in it with the sage mode chakra and how to take down Pain or expose techniques. Kakashi vs Pain ect.


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## ArtieBoy (Jan 16, 2010)

Superstars said:


> Ichigo vs Byakuya, Hell most battles in Soul Society were good. Even Shinji's illusion bankai powers were cleverly written, it was like a Genjutsu done right.
> Have you read any Naruto fights at all? Naruto has decent clever strategies in their battles.  Part 1 fights, hell even Naruto vs Pain battle had some clever twists in it with the sage mode chakra and how to take down Pain or expose techniques. Kakashi vs Pain ect.



Yes! Because we all know having an inner demon do most of the damage to your opponent hasn't been done b4 and makes for a great fight

You've seen 1 back attack in bleach you've seen them all.


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## Cjones (Jan 17, 2010)

Bleach
Naruto
DBZ
Samurai Champloo


But HxH is just....


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## KidTony (Jan 17, 2010)

Shinji's powers were cool, but are you seriously going to call that a fight? It was one slash, countered by Aizen's 'your power is crap and you can't hold a candle to me' slash and that was it...C'mon that was a fucking embarrassing excuse for a skirmish, let alone a fight.


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## Superstars (Jan 17, 2010)

ArtieBoy said:


> Yes! Because we all know having an inner demon do most of the damage to your opponent hasn't been done b4 and makes for a great fight
> 
> You've seen 1 back attack in bleach you've seen them all.



You don't read Bleach or Naruto.



			
				KidTony said:
			
		

> Shinji's powers were cool, but are you seriously going to call that a fight? It was one slash, countered by Aizen's 'your power is crap and you can't hold a candle to me' slash and that was it...C'mon that was a fucking embarrassing excuse for a skirmish, let alone a fight.



True.


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## Pipe (Jan 17, 2010)

the grandmcdaddy of all shounens dragonball Z  also HxH and FMA also Fairy Tail has a couple of good fights


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## Evul Overload (Jan 17, 2010)

Tempproxy said:


> They were relevant fights sure but I don’t think they were well done, don’t get me wrong I am not saying OP is horrible just that showing fight scenes doesn’t seem to be Oda strong points.





Tash said:


> Phenom's actually right here.
> 
> Beyond interesting powers and applications One Piece fights aren't really much with a couple exceptions.



Well, I guess it's the way he presents the fights that is completly different from the other Shonen. To me it seems liek the fights are only of secondary nature here, as the dreams and ideologies behind the fight and the reasons/the plot behind the whole secene matter more to Oda then simply bashing an opponent. 
The whole Bleach War arc simply was "fights for the fights sake" with no plot relevance at all. And while Naruto pretends to be all tactical and ZOMG intelligent, the fights after Part 1 are 90% crap and cliched to the max. Seriously, the whole themes are reversed (in a bad way, not like the Ant arc in HxH), and it feels like it is simply not important how the fight ends because Kishi will pull something out of his ass again to bring the "story" back on track 8at elast to me it seems that way).



Superstars said:


> The Moria fight sucked.* Luffy just dominated him at the end even the Odz fight was terribly written. *



The Pain fight sucked, Naruto just dominated him at the end even the Six Paths fight was terribly written.
See, that's called standard plot device 
The difference is that OP doesn't pretend to be an all intelligent and tactical manga, unlike Naruto. The discrepancy between the intention and the execution is what matters here.



Superstars said:


> Zoro vs Ryumma was the only good written fight in TB. Luffy vs Arlong was lame too. Shark torpedo was boring and using his teeth as weapons was like facepalm. Water 7 fights sucked, Enies Lobby fights between Zoro and Kaku/Rob Lucci vs Luffy was good.



I agree, Zoro vs. Ryuuma was a good fight. Sorry that I forgot to post in in my last post. And I found Arlong using his body to the extreme was quite a good idea, especially with the theme of racism in the Arlong arc and Luffys speech. As I said before, Oda executes action in a different manner. Water 7 fights were awesome in my opinion as it highlighted pretty good how the difference was and served as a good characterization for CP9. Zoro vs. Kaku was funny and great, Rob lucci vs. Luffy was horribly as too many clichees were involved in this one and Rob Lucci as a character lacked a personality to let him stand out. 



Superstars said:


> Shabondy really had no fights, it basically was Pacafistas pushing rookies to the extreme and Kizaru pwning rookies and his encounter with Dark King and dang near all of thesefights were off-panel most of the time.



As I said before, plot before fights.




Superstars said:


> Lol, how dare you put Ussopp vs Luffy that was weak, Luffy vs Enel's final fight wasn't good either but the first bout was pretty good. The only ones that were truly good on that list is Zoro vs Mr. 1 and Luffy vs Corcodile. Why didn't you menyion Sanji vs Bon Clay? that was one of the better fights in the story.
> 
> One Piece shouldn't be mentioned, Fights aren't it's forte.



Sanji vs. Bon Clay is my fault, sorry. But you must agree that Enel received good characterization (though it could be more) through his actions and Ganfort, and the fight against luffy who had a big advantage over him in theory showed that this was no blind hype. And as mentioned  above, Oda executes his fights in another way than Kishi or Kubo. I'm fine with him pulling out new attacks in the fights as we say them train off-panel and Oda stated that they were training continously while traveling the Grand Line thus sparing us the boring training arcs with an already fixed outcome (seriously, did ANYONE ever doubt that Ichigo/Naruto/Shonen character X won't achieve the technique they started to learn?). Plot > fights for Oda, and I'm fine with that.

And please guys, don't start turning this into ANOTHER One Piece vs. Naruto vs. Bleach argument. We already have 2 of them on the front page here...seriously, some people need to stop being self-rightous dickheads here.


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## Krombacher (Jan 17, 2010)

YYH and HxH.

Havent read JJBA yet.


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## Evul Overload (Jan 17, 2010)

RockyDJ said:


> Havent read JJBA yet.



Shame on you!


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## UrumiGTO (Jan 17, 2010)

Superstars said:


> Ichigo vs Byakuya, Grimmjaw vs Ichigo, kenpachi vs Tousen, Hell most battles in Soul Society were good.
> 
> Have you read any Naruto fights at all? Naruto has decent clever strategies in their battles. Part 1 fights, Saskue vs Naruto valley of the end hell even Naruto vs Pain battle had some clever twists in it with the sage mode chakra and how to take down Pain or expose techniques. Kakashi vs Pain ect.


Well bleach Soul society fights was okay but not great but after it start to suck.
Same goes for Naruto part one was briliant ninja fights as you stated but later it became shit , pain vs naruto fight was okay but it dsnt come close to zabuza and chunin exam arcs.
and yes i readed naruto and bleach


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## firefist (Jan 17, 2010)

I would have to say OP, didn't read HxH, JJBA, yet (yes, I know ).


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## Neelon (Jan 17, 2010)

Superstars said:


> Ichigo vs Byakuya, Grimmjaw vs Ichigo, kenpachi vs Tousen, Hell most battles in Soul Society were good.
> 
> Have you read any Naruto fights at all? Naruto has decent clever strategies in their battles. Part 1 fights, Saskue vs Naruto valley of the end hell even Naruto vs Pain battle had some clever twists in it with the sage mode chakra and how to take down Pain or expose techniques. Kakashi vs Pain ect.



Fights after soul society arc went utter crap and pretty retarded.

There were none clever fight in Part II naruto. All at the clever can be summed up in Bushin feints + genjutsu-genjutsu break and one hit K.O spam.




> didn't read HxH, JJBA though


You must read these


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## barkadat3p (Jan 17, 2010)

HunterxHunter 
Rurouni Kenshin
Yu Yu Hakusho
Naruto (PART 1 only!!!!)
One Piece

About the one piece fights...IMO Oda focuses more on variety (this includes circumstances of how and where the fight started and not just who the enemy is) than just simple flash, some people appreciate it some don't. 
The fact that he adds comedy to most of his fights (lots and lots of comedy) tends to turn people off especially for people who are looking for flashiness.

It is not just Luffy vs. Odz and Moria, its the Strawhats vs. Odz and Moria. That fight showed teamwork better than any fight in Naruto(yes that includes Sasuke x Naruto vs. Haku)

Bleach???

this one

*Spoiler*: __ 




I think Ichigo was supposed to be standing there trying to protect himself by cutting it but Kubo's ink spilled and he said screw it


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## Magnificent (Jan 17, 2010)

HxH, OP, Pre-timeskip Naruto, Hajime no Ippo


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## Hatifnatten (Jan 17, 2010)

Firefist said:


> I would have to say OP, didn't read HxH, JJBA, yet (yes, I know ).


............


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## Evul Overload (Jan 17, 2010)

Hatifnatten said:


> ............



Seconded


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## Krombacher (Jan 17, 2010)

Evul Overload said:


> Shame on you!



Send me HQ scans link and I will read

Im to lazy to search myself and atm I still have manga to catch up with so Im not too excited to search that manga


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## Evul Overload (Jan 17, 2010)

RockyDJ said:


> Send me HQ scans link and I will read
> 
> Im to lazy to search myself and atm I still have manga to catch up with so Im not too excited to search that manga



Already sent. Happy reading


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## Krombacher (Jan 17, 2010)

Evul Overload said:


> Already sent. Happy reading



Thank you


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## Tash (Jan 17, 2010)

robotnik said:


> who's the ^ (use bro) in your avatar
> 
> he looks so familiar



You either know him from My Name is Earl where he was the secretly homosexual gang boss in a prison.

Or you know him as U-Turn from Weeds.


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## Diarrhea (Jan 17, 2010)

Firefist said:


> I would have to say OP, didn't read HxH, *JJBA*, yet (yes, I know ).



JJBA is a shounen? 

I thought it started off as a shounen and then moved to a seinen magazine.


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## Hatifnatten (Jan 17, 2010)

Diarrhea said:


> JJBA is a shounen?
> 
> I thought it started off as a shounen and then moved to a seinen magazine.


It's the same stuff, so what difference.


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## Diarrhea (Jan 17, 2010)

Hatifnatten said:


> It's the same stuff, so what difference.



So why limit the thread to only shounen manga if it's 'the same' as you claimed?


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## olashorty (Jan 17, 2010)

YYH has some great pages[Kurama decapitating Gourmet] but I don't really recall loving the fight scenes in the manga.

Order probably goes:

1. Houshin Engi
2. JJBA
3. HxH
4. Flames of Recca

I'd put Bastard in here too, but probably doesn't count as shounen, with all the breasts.

Etc.

Out of the HST, probably Naruto, despite the massive PIS. OP fight scenes always seem overly cluttered and Bleach fights are...artistic.


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## SAFFF (Jan 17, 2010)

olashorty said:


> Bleach fights are...artistic.



that's a nice way of putting it. I'd probably put JJBA fight scenes even above my beloved HXH if the scans i have weren't in such shit quality. Will they ever release this manga in the US?!? good god are we missing out.


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## TicoTico (Jan 17, 2010)

Hunter X Hunter takes this one by a landslide.

Jojo's real good too.

Psyren and Naruto have a lot of great stuff going on for me, battle-wise.

Fifth place goes to FMA.

And as for One Piece... As much as I love it, it's not the battles that make it great.


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## Sen (Jan 17, 2010)

Shin Angyo Onshi if that is a shonen   I loved the fight scenes with Sando, some of them were so beautifully drawn.

I think Naruto is pretty good too, as well as FMA.


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## olashorty (Jan 17, 2010)

The JJBA scans on the popular sites are okay, if I recall. 

HxH fights are incredibly detailed but JJBA has Dio...so

Anyway, there needs to be more Houshin Engi love in here


----------



## Tash (Jan 17, 2010)

Supreme Alchemist Fan said:


> Will they ever release this manga in the US?!?



No probably not.



Diarrhea said:


> So why limit the thread to only shounen manga if it's 'the same' as you claimed?



6 out of 7 parts of JJBA are still shounen regardless of the seventh part being published in a seinen magazine.

So obviously he was referring to the parts that fit the criteria of the thread.

And when he says it's "the same stuff" he's talking about Steel Ball Run in comparison to other parts of Jojo, not shonen being the same stuff as seinen.



robotnik said:


> haha oh yeah him
> 
> man did that show turn to crap fast after they left agrestic



Yea kinda.

Nancy and Andy are pretty shitball now, and the story is basically all over the place.

But I actually like a lot of the miscellaneous beaners that have been introduced.


----------



## SAFFF (Jan 17, 2010)

i also forgot to of course mention fma's awesome fights. there isn't a lot of strategy in all of the fights but when there is.....boy is it a treat. I'd put it like this.
1.JJBA
2.HXH
3.Shin Angyo Onshi
4.FMA
5.Gintama (anime) (because i can't think of anything else for .5 right now.)

i can't see naruto being on the list, the fights are so boring, drawn out and a sad attempt at being strategic. Bleach....lol i won't even mention it. The anime has a few beautifully animated fights that will trick into thinking they're good when its really just eyecandy. Same with OP.


----------



## Hatifnatten (Jan 17, 2010)

Diarrhea said:


> So why limit the thread to only shounen manga if it's 'the same' as you claimed?


I meant the manga is the same stuff as 20 years ago titled shounen.


----------



## p-lou (Jan 17, 2010)

Tash said:


> No probably not.



if you're talking about hxh viz just released volume 26


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## olashorty (Jan 17, 2010)

p-lou said:


> if you're talking about hxh viz just released volume 26



He was talking about JJBA.


----------



## p-lou (Jan 17, 2010)

there's still like 15 volumes of jjba out


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## p-lou (Jan 17, 2010)

p-lou said:


> there's still like 15 volumes of jjba out



if by 15 you mean 13 came out last month and 14 comes out in the spring

dummy


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## Devil King Sanji (Jan 17, 2010)

As a OP-tard... I'm mostly a tard because of the story execution rather than the battles. =X


----------



## TicoTico (Jan 17, 2010)

SAO was divine but I don't think it counts as a sh?nen.


----------



## Russian Warlock (Jan 17, 2010)

Naruto of course has the bestest. Everything else is full of deus ex hax.


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## firefist (Jan 17, 2010)

Neelon said:


> You must read these





Hatifnatten said:


> ............





Evul Overload said:


> Seconded



already planning on reading JJBA when I got some time for it.


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## robotnik (Jan 17, 2010)

nancy was always a shitty character but at least she was tolerable when she was actually selling weed


----------



## Superstars (Jan 17, 2010)

Evul Overload said:


> The Pain fight sucked, Naruto just dominated him at the end even the Six Paths fight was terribly written.
> See, that's called standard plot device
> The difference is that OP doesn't pretend to be an all intelligent and tactical manga, unlike Naruto. The discrepancy between the intention and the execution is what matters here.
> 
> ...


Too bad this isn't a thread about plot execution in fights it's about the best fights [as far as entertainment goes] and one piece doesn't cut it.


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## Superstars (Jan 17, 2010)

Neelon said:


> Fights after soul society arc went utter crap and pretty retarded.
> 
> There were none clever fight in Part II naruto. All at the clever can be summed up in Bushin feints + genjutsu-genjutsu break and one hit K.O spam.



Deidara vs Saskue, Pain vs Kakashi had thought in them. Noitarra vs Kenpachi Grimmjaw vs Ichigo were good.


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## Zephos (Jan 17, 2010)

Superstars said:


> Deidara vs Saskue, Pain vs Kakashi had thought in them. Noitarra vs Kenpachi Grimmjaw vs Ichigo were good.



These all sucked ass, and Kakashi should not have been a match for Pain in any sense.

Dragonball has the best.


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## Evul Overload (Jan 18, 2010)

Superstars said:


> Too bad this isn't a thread about plot execution in fights it's about the best fights [as far as entertainment goes] and one piece doesn't cut it.



I try to analyze the structure of different mangas to provide objective arguments about what fights could be seen as better and you simply go all "Meh, in my opinion this SUX". Great.


----------



## Whimsy (Jan 18, 2010)

robotnik said:


> nancy was always a shitty character but at least she was tolerable when she was actually selling weed



What's the point of her when she isn't selling weed? Isn't that kind of the whole raison d'etre of the show.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Jan 18, 2010)

DB, RB and if BOTI is under shounen then Shiro's fight against that guy who wears a mask. Also, a few from HNI.


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## Superstars (Jan 18, 2010)

Evul Overload said:


> I try to analyze the structure of different mangas to provide objective arguments about what fights could be seen as better and you simply go all "Meh, in my opinion this SUX". Great.



Nah, I said "MEH ANOTHER ONE PIECETARD TRYING TO JUSTIFY WHY THE FIGHTS SUCKED"



> These all sucked ass, and Kakashi should not have been a match for Pain in any sense.



Kakashi wasn't a match for pain he simply stalled with help to figure out his power. The fights were good, refreshing physicality never gets tiresome and simple effective tactics is always a plus.


----------



## Evul Overload (Jan 18, 2010)

Superstars said:


> Nah, I said "MEH ANOTHER ONE PIECETARD TRYING TO JUSTIFY WHY THE FIGHTS SUCKED"
> 
> 
> 
> Kakashi wasn't a match for pain he simply stalled with help to figure out his power. The fights were good, refreshing physicality never gets tiresome and simple effective tactics is always a plus.



First off, please don't call me a tard. I'm just playing the devils advocate here, pointing out the flaws of both sides as both sides apparently have some in their argumentation. And currently I find your argumentation to be rather reactionary as you simply discard anything as biased statements without any relevant points for your argumentation - which I have yet to see explained in a fully detailed post. of course opinions are subjective, but at least they try to give reasonable arguments while you're simply mocking them.

And sure, your own opinion is respected and cannot be attacked. But to give an answer that is as objective as possible I think it is neccesary to try to udnerstand how the author himself wants the fights to be and to compare them with the actual - subjective viewed - execution with scientific (read: literal) criterias. And that is my main point: *The* *intention* of the author *and the discrepance* noticed by the viewer *in it's execution*. 

And now comes the tricky part: Remember Naruto Part 1. remember the chakra system and it's explanation. Remember the often detailed explanation on the workings of certain techniques. Remember what tactics were used even in Genin fights. remember Kishimoto's earlier statements about Naruto emphazising on tactical combat.
And now look at the execution of it in Part 2. How many bloodline limits were explained? How was the chakra system evolving? How did the actual working of the established system effect the outcome of a battle? 
Ask yourself these question and be honest with you. The direction of the manga changed; that was once tactical and unique combat in part 1 got replaced by clicheed Shonen battles with a lot of deus ex machina techniques, no explanation at all and - in my opinion the worst - an emphasis on the superiority of heritage above hard work. This isn't the Naruto Kishimoto and many fans and today's haters imagined. 
And in my opinion this is something that unables me to give the title "Shonen with tzhe best fights to this series", as Naruto fails to deliver on his own premise and is giving us standartised fights instead of the unique content we were spoiled with in Part 1. the same goes for Bleach too (SS Bankai's and tactics vs. Espada's CHARGIN THEIR LAZORZ anyone?), but I guess you know what I mean.

And now look at One Piece. The emphasis is on the adventure himself, Oda stated that he wanted to do a Shonen that he always wanted to read. Meaning no romance, a party after each arc, some fancy powers and good fights related to the actual plot and not for the fights sake. And look at it, we have teamwork in the fights, unique powers (some are near JJBA level), short and rather non-repitative fights that provide something to the plot, etc. The main difference between OP and the other mangas is that OP actually holds on to the premise it made to himself. 

Only if you understand that context you can try to jugde the fights properly and guess what, here OP stays true to itself and the form it wants to aplly therefore executing the fights better in the given enviroment and being the manga with better fights overall.


----------



## Superstars (Jan 18, 2010)

Uh, your writing essay's and saying nothing really. Naruto and Bleach stay true to their premise. The chakra system evolved in different styles/techniques [Susano'o, Sage mode,  ect]. Bloodeline limits has always been apart of Naruto and should expected to be expanded upon. Naruto still does use tactics in combat/team work he used it against Pain and Kakuzu. Bleach still stays true to it's game, with Bankai's and just RAW beat em ups with magic in it. 

So I don't know why you are acting like One Piece is the only one that's stay's true to the plot with it's battles cause it isn't. Besides the thread isn't about "the author's intents and how the viewers see the fights thread," it's simply comes down who has the best fights [most entertaining] and I said Dragonball.


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## Whimsy (Jan 18, 2010)

Superstars said:


> *Uh, your writing rants and saying nothing really.* Naruto and Bleach stay true to their premise. The chakra system evolved in different styles/techniques [Susano'o, Sage mode,  ect]. Bloodeline limits has always been apart of Naruto and should expected to be expanded upon. Naruto still does use tactics in combat/team work he used it against Pain and Kakuzu. Bleach still stays true to it's game, with Bankai's and just RAW beat em ups with magic in it.
> 
> So I don't know why you are acting like One Piece is the only one that's stay's true to the plot with it's battles cause it isn't. Besides the thread isn't about the author's intents and how the viwers see it thread, it's simply comes down who has the best fights [most entertaining] and I said Dragonball.



Pot. Kettle.


----------



## Evul Overload (Jan 18, 2010)

Superstars said:


> Uh, your writing rants and saying nothing really. Naruto and Bleach stay true to their premise. The chakra system evolved in different styles/techniques [Susano'o, Sage mode,  ect]. Bloodeline limits has always been apart of Naruto and should expected to be expanded upon. Naruto still does use tactics in combat/team work he used it against Pain and Kakuzu. Bleach still stays true to it's game, with Bankai's and just RAW beat em ups with magic in it.
> 
> So I don't know why you are acting like One Piece is the only one that's stay's true to the plot with it's battles cause it isn't. Besides the thread isn't about the author's intents and how the viwers see it thread, it's simply comes down who has the best fights [most entertaining] and I said Dragonball.



Well, then tell me how not explaining bloodline limits, fighting for nearly 5 minutes and pulling out MS techniques  while being out of chakra and such great tactics as "let me fight alone against that 100 year old supreme fighter with 5 hearts I ultimately beat because he fell for the stupiest trp ever" compares to the tactics and explanations shown in the Wave Country arc? Or how the lame variations of the black and white straight lines commonly known as Cero and the lame releases and instant kill offs from the espada's are better than different uses of the sowrds and Kido in the SS arc? Really, it's just bland and repitative, you should have to guts to at least admit that as even most Bleach fans won't deny it. 
And while I find Dragonball to be immensly influental and standard setting, I still think the later fights are bland from a modern perspective. But given the time it was published and handled I would very well say that DB has awesome fights.


----------



## Zephos (Jan 18, 2010)

Superstars said:


> Kakashi wasn't a match for pain he simply stalled with help to figure out his power.



He should have been pancaked.



> The fights were good, refreshing physicality never gets tiresome and simple effective tactics is always a plus.



Every single fight since Part 2 started has sucked, except for the ones with black guys beating up Sasuke.


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## Superstars (Jan 18, 2010)

Pain vs Naruto was good and Kakshi did get pancaked.


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## SAFFF (Jan 18, 2010)

Superstars said:


> Uh, your writing essay's and saying nothing really. Naruto and Bleach stay true to their premise. The chakra system evolved in different styles/techniques [Susano'o, Sage mode,  ect]. Bloodeline limits has always been apart of Naruto and should expected to be expanded upon. Naruto still does use tactics in combat/team work he used it against Pain and Kakuzu. *Bleach still stays true to it's game, with Bankai's and just RAW beat em ups with magic in it.*



that doesn't justify the fights being listed as top entertainment considering the way these fights play out are shitty. I.E Kenpachi putting his fucking other hand on the sword and killing Noitora. That was shitty and a poorly done fight. A few others are Ichigo saying he can't lose because he can't after getting his ass kicked and oneshoting opponents and the usual garbage kubo feeds you and his fans.

Pain vs Naruto was pretty bad too. Wasn't it just Naruto getting outclassed even with sage mode and finally beating Pain after a few interferences and a shitty strategy of hiding his bushins in rocks? How a "top class" ninja like Pain fell for that is beyond me. It was simple, silly and like most Naruto fights unbelievable and underwhelming. 

Why you keep defending these two series as having top quality fights is beyond me when theirs obviously better fights in other shonen series out there you could be defending. For example HNI or JJBA.


----------



## Superstars (Jan 18, 2010)

Evul Overload said:


> Well, then tell me how not explaining bloodline limits, fighting for nearly 5 minutes and pulling out MS techniques  while being out of chakra and such great tactics as "let me fight alone against that 100 year old supreme fighter with 5 hearts I ultimately beat because he fell for the stupiest trp ever" compares to the tactics and explanations shown in the Wave Country arc? Or how the lame variations of the black and white straight lines commonly known as Cero and the lame releases and instant kill offs from the espada's are better than different uses of the sowrds and Kido in the SS arc? Really, it's just bland and repitative, you should have to guts to at least admit that as even most Bleach fans won't deny it.
> And while I find Dragonball to be immensly influental and standard setting, I still think the later fights are bland from a modern perspective. But given the time it was published and handled I would very well say that DB has awesome fights.



Espada's Cero's was basically no different than a Hado Kidou. For them it was a way to attack an opponent with long ranged projectiles just like the Shinigami did in SS arc. Added with their releases and special abilities that come with those releases along with "Sonido" another variation of Flashstep [akin to a Shinigami] and how they fight [which is the same as SS arc] is always been Bleach's style. Don't know why you think it's any different. 

Bloodline limits are always getting explained in Naruto, are you seriously saying the Sharingan, Rnningan, Byakugan ect isn't or hasn't been explained? That means you ain't reading naruto. Whther you like it or not Kakshi vs Pain had strategy, Deidara vs Saskue [Whine all you want about low on chakra bomb escaping saskue at the end but mostly the fight was tactical], Pain vs Naruto [How Naruto dealt with some Pain bodies, leaving some sage chakra behind and summoning to bring to use for battle, the way he defeated Deva Pai nat the end]. It doesn't matter if you think the tactics isn't as good as part one naruto the point is you said there wasn't any tactics in part two when their obviously was. Seriously, you try to justify one piece fights and you talk about other fights being bland and repetitive, when almost all of one piece fights are just lame, no.


----------



## Superstars (Jan 18, 2010)

Supreme Alchemist Fan said:


> that doesn't justify the fights being listed as top entertainment.



If you actually read my posts from the start, this was my whole point to Overload. He basically turned the thread into how the fights don't stay true to the plot and now I'm simply just answering his questions as how they do.

Also your entire post has nothing to do with how entertaining the battles were. You are simply saying the outcome of a battle is weak despite the fights as a whole were decent.


----------



## Zephos (Jan 18, 2010)

Superstars said:


> Pain vs Naruto was good


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## Superstars (Jan 18, 2010)

lol, Yes as cliche as it was, it was entertaining non the less.


----------



## Zephos (Jan 18, 2010)

In much the same way as From Justin to Kelly.


----------



## Superstars (Jan 18, 2010)

The album, lol, no,..Not even close.


----------



## Eldritch (Jan 18, 2010)

LOL **


----------



## Lightysnake (Jan 18, 2010)

Zephos said:


> He should have been pancaked.


Which he was. 




> Every single fight since Part 2 started has sucked, except for the ones with black guys beating up Sasuke.



Given you barely even know what happened in them...


----------



## KidTony (Jan 18, 2010)

They all sucked, because they became about who's ultra awesome final jutsu is stronger, rather than the technique from part 1. Have we seen anything close to Shikamaru vs. Temari in part 2? The closest i think is Hidan's death, and even that pales in comparison.


----------



## armorknight (Jan 18, 2010)

With Naruto vs One Piece fights its mostly a matter of intelligence and strategy vs variety and epicness. Though the fights are less intelligent and strategic in part two, these are still the main strengths of Naruto fights (although they're far from genius level). The main strengths of One Piece fights are their variety and epicness. In the end it comes down to preference. I personally prefer more of the latter (variety and epicness) in fights.

Both are better than the eye-bleeding suckage of Bleach fights for sure.


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## Superstars (Jan 18, 2010)

KidTony said:


> They all sucked, because they became about who's ultra awesome final jutsu is stronger, rather than the technique from part 1. Have we seen anything close to Shikamaru vs. Temari in part 2? The closest i think is Hidan's death, and even that pales in comparison.



Seriously, you think the one piece war is good, your statement is invalid.


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## Lightysnake (Jan 18, 2010)

KidTony said:


> They all sucked, because they became about who's ultra awesome final jutsu is stronger, rather than the technique from part 1. Have we seen anything close to Shikamaru vs. Temari in part 2? The closest i think is Hidan's death, and even that pales in comparison.



Quite frankly? Bullshit

Sasori vs. Sakura and Chiyo was all about using what they had with strategy against one another. They won only because Sasori hesitated at the end 

Orochimaru vs. Naruto: Inconclusive. Orochimaru was just playing around anyways

Sasuke vs. the team: Also inconclusive. Ended before everyone went all out

Hidan vs. Shikamaru: Hey. Strategy

Kakuzu vs. Naruto: Naruto uses a jutsu to take him down and strategy in order to get the hit

Deidara vs. Sasuke: Matching what they have against one another. This is bad how?

Jiraiya vs. Pain: Jiraiya is legitimately outmatched

Sasuke vs. Itachi: Itachi wins practically and lets himself die



Tell me, when was a fight ever won because "I have the stronger jutsu" in a while instead of strategy? Even when Naruto used a game ending Jutsu on Kakuzu, he used strategy to get the hit


----------



## Abigail (Jan 18, 2010)

Zephos said:


>



That still makes me crack up.


----------



## Lightysnake (Jan 18, 2010)

Says something that someone finds Zephos's brand of humor amusing. 

Even more when that's pointed out to not be accurate at all.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 18, 2010)

Naruto, One Piece, Dragon Ball/Z, Rurouni Kenshin, Yu Yu Hakusho, Bleach, Zoids: Chaotic Century, Pokemon Special (guilty pleasure there).

Naruto vs Pain is one of my all-time favorite fights, as well as Luffy vs Lucci, Goku vs Freeza, Kenshin vs Shishio, Yusuke vs Toguro, Ichigo vs Byakuya, Van vs Raven (Blade Liger vs Genosaurer), Red vs Green, final battle of the Indigo Tournament.


----------



## KidTony (Jan 18, 2010)

Superstars said:


> Seriously, you think the one piece war is good, your statement is invalid.



Not only is it good, it is better than every single bleach arc, including SS and the start.



Lightysnake said:


> Quite frankly? Bullshit
> 
> Sasori vs. Sakura and Chiyo was all about using what they had with strategy against one another. They won only because Sasori hesitated at the end
> 
> ...



The strategy you mention is mickey mouse. Most of the part two fights were resolved by some kind of godlike ultimate technique. I understand the fact that all characters got stronger, but IMO the fights suffered because of that. I enjoyed the ones in part 1 a lot more because the techniques weren't outrageously broken and most characters really had only one or two main jutsu and had to really relay on their strengths to pull out the win. Right now yeah, you can mention some crappy 'strategy' in the fights, but there are not on the level as before. Even fights in part 1 that didn't rely on strategy i enjoyed a lot more. I'm sure you can ask most naruto fans in this site and they will list fights like Gara-lee, Gara-Naruto, Shikamaru-Temari, Neji-Naruto, Choiji-Jirobu, Kimimaro-lee, and Naruto-Sasuke as classics, can you say the same thing for part two fights? There has to be a reason why the overwhelming majority of Naruto fans prefer part 1 naruto fights (and naruto in general) to its part two counterpart.


----------



## Lightysnake (Jan 19, 2010)

KidTony said:


> Not only is it good, it is better than every single bleach arc, including SS and the start.
> 
> 
> 
> The strategy you mention is mickey mouse. Most of the part two fights were resolved by some kind of godlike ultimate technique.


Name the fights. I provided counter examples. The one fight you can stretch it to make a point would be Kakuzu vs. Naruto and just trying to use the jutsu on its own failed. Sasuke using Amaterasu against Bee doesn't count either as Bee tricked him completely and won the fight



> I understand the fact that all characters got stronger, but IMO the fights suffered because of that. I enjoyed the ones in part 1 a lot more because the techniques weren't outrageously broken and most characters really had only one or two main jutsu and had to really relay on their strengths to pull out the win. Right now yeah, you can mention some crappy 'strategy' in the fights, but there are not on the level as before. Even fights in part 1 that didn't rely on strategy i enjoyed a lot more. I'm sure you can ask most naruto fans in this site and they will list fights like Gara-lee, Gara-Naruto, Shikamaru-Temari, Neji-Naruto, Choiji-Jirobu, Kimimaro-lee, and Naruto-Sasuke as classics, can you say the same thing for part two fights? There has to be a reason why the overwhelming majority of Naruto fans prefer part 1 naruto fights (and naruto in general) to its part two counterpart.



I'm going to say again: *Stop ignoring my posts and defend your points*.

Yeah, you can list a lot of fights on part 2 that you can say the same. Sasuke vs. Deidara comes to mind. Or Jiraiya vs. Pain?

In what fights exactly was it resolved by just pulling out a bigger jutsu? Because the only one I can recall is Kakuzu and even that wasn't so clear cut.


----------



## Superstars (Jan 19, 2010)

KidTony said:


> Not only is it good, it is better than every single bleach arc, including SS and the start.
> .



lol, a battle with off-panel fights, pages filled with cannon fodder and so called powers of the world gathered to stare at Luffy. Just what I expected from the one piecetards...


----------



## ArtieBoy (Jan 19, 2010)

"A Shinobi must be able to see whats underneath the under" 
Cool quote and all but when a fighter has years of fighting experience over someone else they should be able to be observe the situation better than the novice fighter.
and  win majority of the time


----------



## Lightysnake (Jan 19, 2010)

Which they usually do. Notice that, again, the fights are
Sakura and Chiyo vs. Sasori- Chiyo taught Sasori how to fight and has much more experience
Orochimaru vs. the Kyuub: Orochimaru was just playing
Kakashi and Naruto vs. Kakuzu: Kakuzu got caught by something he couldn't expect
Hidan vs. shikamaru: Hidan was always portrayed as a fool, Shikamaru is a genius, had seen Hidan fight before and set things up beforehand
Deidara vs. Sasuke: They're practically the same age and Sasuke's fighting style is a nice counter to Deidara's
Sasuke vs. Itachi: Itachi allowed himself to lose
Sasuke vs. Killer Bee: Bee made a fool out of his entire team and escaped
Sasuke vs. Kages: Sasuke was beaten here, too. 

Again, why do OP fans keep forgetting the times Luffy beats the hell out of much older, more experienced fighters and pirates? Captain Kuro, Don Krieg, Arlong, Crocodile...


----------



## ArtieBoy (Jan 19, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Kakashi and Naruto vs. Kakuzu: Kakuzu got caught by something he couldn't expect


How about His years of fighting experience over Naruto and Kakashi. he should know what to expect. 



> Hidan vs. shikamaru: Hidan was always portrayed as a fool, Shikamaru is a genius, had seen Hidan fight before and set things up beforehand


 Hidan Was an idiot most people saw that outcome b4 the fight even started



> Deidara vs. Sasuke: They're practically the same age and Sasuke's fighting style is a nice counter to Deidara's


 Yea there around the same age so i would expect they would be pretty even.




> Sasuke vs. Killer Bee: Bee made a fool out of his entire team and escaped


 Killer Bee used his serious rap skills to mind game sasuke



> Sasuke vs. Kages: Sasuke was beaten here, too.


 experience showed there too



> Again, why do OP fans keep forgetting the times Luffy beats the hell out of much older, more experienced fighters and pirates? Captain Kuro, Don Krieg, Arlong, Crocodile...


 Naruto Emphasize on strategic fighting One Piece is Brawls (and strategy every now and then) Yea theres some more experience fighters  
I never forgot Luffy Beat people much older than him.
Captain Kuro was away from battles for 3 years he could of been rusty. 
Luffy lost to Crocodile 2 times before he beat him. and when  Crocodile beat Luffy it was pretty bad 
Theres not much I can say about Luffy beating Krieg & arlong


----------



## Lightysnake (Jan 19, 2010)

ArtieBoy said:


> How about His years of fighting experience over Naruto and Kakashi. he should know what to expect.


It doesn't mean Kakuzu will know literally every fighting style ever. He fought one Konoha shinobi that we know of before he was immortal and lost badly. He also didn't think Naruto would risk his actual body when Kakuzu nearly killed him the first time.



> Hidan Was an idiot most people saw that outcome b4 the fight even started
> 
> Yea there the same age so i would expect they would be pretty even.


As I said: Shikamaru had a lot of prep time and time to analyze...and he's one of the smartest people.
Sasuke nearly died against Deidara to boot. Deidara might even have killed him if he hadn't snapped



> Killer Bee used his serious rap skills to mind game sasuke
> 
> experience showed there too


Less experience and more skill, intelligence and ability.



> Naruto Emphasize on strategic fighting One Piece is Brawls (and strategy every now and then) Yea theres some more experience fighters


Naruto's theme is the young surpassing the old so isn't younger heroes beating older villains kind of integral to that?



> I never forgot Luffy Beat people much older than him.
> Captain Kuro was away from battles for 3 years he could of been rusty.
> Luffy lost to Crocodile 2 times before he beat him. and when  Crocodile beat Luffy it was pretty bad


Kuro was not rusty and the manga informs us of that. Django notes that Kuro has forgotten nothing and still remembers how to kill when noticing how he pushes his glasses up.
Crocodile only won because Luffy didn't know his weakness to boot



> Theres not much I can say about Luffy beating Krieg.



Brawl style or no, there is a serious double standard if Naruto gets crap for having younger heroes winning when One Piece is praised relentlessly despite having the same issue


----------



## ArtieBoy (Jan 19, 2010)

You win this debate for now. There some things i wanna comment on but i end up contradicting myself
i have no idea why i quoted that


----------



## Evul Overload (Jan 19, 2010)

Supreme Alchemist Fan said:


> that doesn't justify the fights being listed as top entertainment considering the way these fights play out are shitty. I.E Kenpachi putting his fucking other hand on the sword and killing Noitora. That was shitty and a poorly done fight. A few others are Ichigo saying he can't lose because he can't after getting his ass kicked and oneshoting opponents and the usual garbage kubo feeds you and his fans.
> 
> Pain vs Naruto was pretty bad too. Wasn't it just Naruto getting outclassed even with sage mode and finally beating Pain after a few interferences and a shitty strategy of hiding his bushins in rocks? *How a "top class" ninja like Pain fell for that is beyond me. It was simple, silly and like most Naruto fights unbelievable and underwhelming. *
> 
> *Why you keep defending these two series as having top quality fights is beyond me when theirs obviously better fights in other shonen series out there you could be defending.* For example HNI or JJBA.



You are right. I mean, seriously: Come on, a genius not being able to recognize a Kage Bunshin? A f***ing standard jutsu! And will you really defend Bleach as having superior fights to JJBA nd HNI? Seriously?



Superstars said:


> Espada's Cero's was basically no different than a Hado Kidou. For them it was a way to attack an opponent with long ranged projectiles just like the Shinigami did in SS arc. Added with their releases and special abilities that come with those releases along with "Sonido" another variation of Flashstep [akin to a Shinigami] and how they fight [which is the same as SS arc] is always been Bleach's style. Don't know why you think it's any different.
> 
> Bloodline limits are always getting explained in Naruto, are you seriously saying the Sharingan, Rnningan, Byakugan ect isn't or hasn't been explained? That means you ain't reading naruto. Whther you like it or not Kakshi vs Pain had strategy, Deidara vs Saskue [Whine all you want about low on chakra bomb escaping saskue at the end but mostly the fight was tactical], Pain vs Naruto [How Naruto dealt with some Pain bodies, leaving some sage chakra behind and summoning to bring to use for battle, the way he defeated Deva Pai nat the end]. It doesn't matter if you think the tactics isn't as good as part one naruto the point is you said there wasn't any tactics in part two when their obviously was. Seriously, you try to justify one piece fights and you talk about other fights being bland and repetitive, when almost all of one piece fights are just lame, no.



It's about the level oft he tactics. And as Supreme Alchemist Fan mentioned above, the decrease of it is horrible. Come on, Hidan failing to figure out everything was planned from Shikamaru when they even discussed it before their own eyes was pathetic. Same goes for the supposed genius who just happen to need at least one trainign session to figure out that "OMG, you can't kill them but you can render them unable to move". Seriously, that's amazing strategy to you? Pain vs. Naruto was only a Rasengan orgy and the Sage Mode giving him chakra was kind of NOT a tactic, just a steady power supply everbody could have thought of. I mean seriously, do you always use all of your gasoline in the first moment or do keep some litres in reserve if the tank is empty? That isn't tactic, just common sense and was added to have at least a sense of realism in this fight. And what about most abilities of the Akatsuki, the bloodline limits of the Kages, the whole backstory to most of the villians in part 2 and the basic usage fromt he chakra system behind the bloodline limits? What about the Yin & Yang principles mentioned in the element traing? What about the elements in general? Why does it even matter if anyone has a ultra super high level "Last ressort" Jutsu they spam at every possible situation like MS? Tactics my ass, this is just child's play and you should very well be able to admit that as well as it obvious to nearly 90-95% of the people I met here on these forums.

And on Bleach: Sure, Shinji and Shunsui had some nice Bankai's with a sense of tactic. But this wasn't neccesary as most fiughts after the war were simply driven by pure brute force. And what tactic is hitting with 2 hands or with awesome "Lulz, resolve force power up deus ex machina!". But I have to admit, the quality didn't decline that much as in Naruto because Bleach fights were never that tactical to begin with; only better implemented into the story. Which brings me back to my original arguments that you also have to look at the premise and the discrepance of the intention and the execution to porper jugde fights. There is the main difference between the old and the new Bleach if you will so.



Superstars said:


> lol, Yes as cliche as it was, it was entertaining non the less.





			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> In popular culture, formula fiction is literature in which the storylines and plots have been reused to the extent that the narratives are predictable. It is similar to genre fiction, which identifies a number of specific settings that are frequently reused.* The label of formula fiction is used in literary criticism as a pejorative to imply lack of originality.*
> 
> Formula fiction is similar to genre fiction. The label of genre fiction is typically assigned because of the reuse of settings, content, layout, and/or style. The label of formula fiction is assigned because of the reuse of plot, plot devices and stock characters.
> 
> ...



Entertaining: Maybe, depends on your opinion. I'm not liking it, you obviously do.
 Good or even the best: No, as per definition.



Superstars said:


> Seriously, you think the one piece war is good, your statement is invalid.



I think is war in underwhelming, yet you still brand me as a "tard". I also loathed Impel Down. However, given the nature of your posts I guess this is you in a nutshell. You're just like handofjustice: Someone who not only wants to admit simple and obvious (yes, it is obvious) facts, but your sole objective seems to cause mischief between the other members. You should be ashamed of yourself as a poster and an arguer.


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## TicoTico (Jan 19, 2010)

ArtieBoy said:


> How about His years of fighting experience over Naruto and Kakashi. he should know what to expect.


People keep forgetting what an incredible jutsu FRS is. Kakuzu not only had never seen something as powerful before -- _he couldn't possibly expect someone to have enough chakra to have a *kage bunshin* make a FRS_. Not only was the tactic Kakuzu chose _the right one based on what little he knew_, it also demonstrated his *battle experience* and his ability to quickly analyze things! In the end, it was exactly his own battle experience and, somewhat, his arrogance that led to his undoing, and that's the way the battle was meant to be!

Having said that, I do agree that Hidan and Kakuzu both got horribly anti-climactic battles, seeing what great characters they were. Kishimoto did say something, for instance, about having Hidan's scythe initially having more abilities than what we saw. However, because of his editors and the busy schedule, he had to cut a lot of things out. Which is a bloody shame.


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## Lightysnake (Jan 19, 2010)

Evul Overload said:


> You are right. I mean, seriously: Come on, a genius not being able to recognize a Kage Bunshin? A f***ing standard jutsu! And will you really defend Bleach as having superior fights to JJBA nd HNI? Seriously?


Kakuzu couldn't possibly know Naruto would risk his main body after the last attack failed or know he had enough chakra to spam that many kage bunshin at once.




> It's about the level oft he tactics. And as Supreme Alchemist Fan mentioned above, the decrease of it is horrible. Come on, Hidan failing to figure out everything was planned from Shikamaru when they even discussed it before their own eyes was pathetic.


That was limited to "I'll distract him."
In direct combat, Shikamaru was nowhere near Hidan's level and if not for the massive level of prep time Shikamaru had, as well as the opportunity to study Hidan's abilities and fighting style?



> Same goes for the supposed genius who just happen to need at least one trainign session to figure out that "OMG, you can't kill them but you can render them unable to move". Seriously, that's amazing strategy to you?


You're talking about who here?



> Pain vs. Naruto was only a Rasengan orgy and the Sage Mode giving him chakra was kind of NOT a tactic, just a steady power supply everbody could have thought of. I mean seriously, do you always use all of your gasoline in the first moment or do keep some litres in reserve if the tank is empty?


Hence him keeping two bunshin in reserve gathering energy to summon when he was out both time.
And look how he destroyed Animal Realm, Hell Realm and God Realm...no strategy there? Never mind Pain WON initially with God Realm



> That isn't tactic, just common sense and was added to have at least a sense of realism in this fight. And what about most abilities of the Akatsuki, the bloodline limits of the Kages, the whole backstory to most of the villians in part 2 and the basic usage fromt he chakra system behind the bloodline limits? What about the Yin & Yang principles mentioned in the element traing? What about the elements in general? Why does it even matter if anyone has a ultra super high level "Last ressort" Jutsu they spam at every possible situation like MS?


Yeah, how about we see this substantiated instead of parroted over and over? What jutsu do they spam 'like' MS? And who spams MS except Sasuke? And how did it save him at the Kage Summit? Because the Raikage was about to kill him, MS or no.



> Tactics my ass, this is just child's play and you should very well be able to admit that as well as it obvious to nearly 90-95% of the people I met here on these forums.


Yeah, funny how most of them are ignorant of what actually happens in the manga or make blatantly false or unsubstantiated claims while relentlessly praising One Piece where it's just as bad if not worse in regards to tactics and all during fights


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## firefist (Jan 19, 2010)

KidTony said:


> Not only is it good, it is better than every single bleach arc, *including SS *and the start.



?
the op war isnt that good.
It was promising at the beggining and it had some epic moments, but as of now it just drags too much.


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## KidTony (Jan 19, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> I'm going to say again: *Stop ignoring my posts and defend your points*.
> 
> Yeah, you can list a lot of fights on part 2 that you can say the same. Sasuke vs. Deidara comes to mind. Or Jiraiya vs. Pain?
> 
> In what fights exactly was it resolved by just pulling out a bigger jutsu? Because the only one I can recall is Kakuzu and even that wasn't so clear cut.



What points I'm i ignoring? You mention Deidara vs. Sasuke but that's one of the most hated naruto fights of all time, you must not go by the KL very often. *Make a poll of Naruto part 1 vs Part two fights, if part 1 doesn't win by a landslide i'd be surprised.*

In that same fight, did you miss how it ended? Deidara using a giant bomb incapable of being escaped uless you dimension warp your way out? Or kakuzu dying to a massive attack that atomizes your cells. Or every sharingan fight comming down to a war of ultrahax mindrapes.

And i'll say it again, it doesn't have to be strategy, even fights in part one that had little of that were much better, that's the overwhelming concessus. Part 1 had variety, part two all you get is Naruto and Sasuke fighting. Every now and then you get one fringe fight like Killer bee-Kisame (which sucked by the way). Sakura's had one whole fight in the entire series (two if you count that crap against ino) and in part two, only shikamaru and Gaara of the other usual characters that faught in part one can say they've had a whole fight. Not only is it part that you only see kage level fights now, is also part that they're not characters you want to see.


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## KidTony (Jan 19, 2010)

Firefist said:


> ?
> the op war isnt that good.
> It was promising at the beggining and it had some epic moments, but as of now it just drags too much.



it is still better than anything bleach has ever done.


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## Ralphy♥ (Jan 19, 2010)

The "best" Shounen fight is purely subjective, you can defend one all you want; its clearly a mundane, droll, and horribly opinionated topic.


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## Saiko (Jan 19, 2010)

Ralphy♥ said:


> The "best" Shounen fight is purely subjective, you can defend one all you want; its clearly a mundane, droll, and horribly opinionated topic.



This      .


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## Lightysnake (Jan 19, 2010)

KidTony said:


> What points I'm i ignoring? You mention Deidara vs. Sasuke but that's one of the most hated naruto fights of all time, you must not go by the KL very often. *Make a poll of Naruto part 1 vs Part two fights, if part 1 doesn't win by a landslide i'd be surprised.*



It's hated because of the massive Sasuke PNJ at the end. the fight itself was more than enjoyable



> In that same fight, did you miss how it ended? Deidara using a giant bomb incapable of being escaped uless you dimension warp your way out? Or kakuzu dying to a massive attack that atomizes your cells. Or every sharingan fight comming down to a war of ultrahax mindrapes.


Now I know you didn't even read it.

Kakuzu wasn't killed. The FRS is combining your own chakra with the already established Rasengan and had to be hit with it via strategy. Kakashi was the one who actually killed him.
And...Kirin was a Sharingan technique? 



> And i'll say it again, it doesn't have to be strategy, even fights in part one that had little of that were much better, that's the overwhelming concessus.


According to who, you?



> Part 1 had variety, part two all you get is Naruto and Sasuke fighting. Every now and then you get one fringe fight like Killer bee-Kisame (which sucked by the way).


And Shikamaru and Kakashi, and the Kages and Akatsuki...



> Sakura's had one whole fight in the entire series (two if you count that crap against ino) and in part two, only shikamaru and Gaara of the other usual characters that faught in part one can say they've had a whole fight. Not only is it part that you only see kage level fights now, is also part that they're not characters you want to see.


Yeah, nobody likes the Kages despite the critical response being positive to them...and I like how you ignore that they've had several fights and complain about the main characters having actual fights themselves.

What's next, a complaint that in every OP arc for 400 or more chapters, Luffy would always be the one to fight the villain?


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## KidTony (Jan 19, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> It's hated because of the massive Sasuke PNJ at the end. the fight itself was more than enjoyable



Which is the point, fights being resolved in crappy ways with crappy hax techniques. I actually liked that fight, except the horrible, horrible end--which is why none of these fights compare to their part 1 counterparts in quality.




> Now I know you didn't even read it.
> 
> Kakuzu wasn't killed. The FRS is combining your own chakra with the already established Rasengan and had to be hit with it via strategy. Kakashi was the one who actually killed him.
> And...Kirin was a Sharingan technique?



The strategy was a clone feint, no matter how you dress that up at the end of the day that's what it was; which is elementary and mickey mouse. Also, Kakuzu surived because of his multiple lifes, if that hits anyone else they're gone. Which is my point, ultrahax tehcniques introduced at the end of the fights--Imo that's boring. 




> According to who, you?


 According to most naruto fans on this site. You don't even adress my propsal of making a poll to see what people like more, that's because you know I'm right, part 1 fights would win by a *landslide.*



> And Shikamaru and Kakashi, and the Kages and Akatsuki...



Kakashi has never fought in the whole series except against Zabusa, let alone in part two. Using MS against a deidara with no hands and a skirmish with pain and kakuzu don't count as full fights. Shikamaru and Gaara fought, that's it. Kages are nice, but that's not the point. What happened to all the characters we liked from part 1? What happened to lee and neji, and shino and chouji and kiba?


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## MdB (Jan 19, 2010)

TicoTico said:


> People keep forgetting what an incredible jutsu FRS is. Kakuzu not only had never seen something as powerful before -- _he couldn't possibly expect someone to have enough chakra to have a *kage bunshin* make a FRS_. Not only was the tactic Kakuzu chose _the right one based on what little he knew_, it also demonstrated his *battle experience* and his ability to quickly analyze things! In the end, it was exactly his own battle experience and, somewhat, his arrogance that led to his undoing, and that's the way the battle was meant to be!
> 
> Having said that, I do agree that Hidan and Kakuzu both got horribly anti-climactic battles, seeing what great characters they were. Kishimoto did say something, for instance, about having Hidan's scythe initially having more abilities than what we saw. However, because of his editors and the busy schedule, he had to cut a lot of things out. Which is a bloody shame.



He was familiar with the hosts of the Eight-Tailed Beasts. A simple Bunshin faint should have never defeated him when he even showcased to outwit Shikamura in a promptly manner. The conclusion of that fight is just beyond retardation.


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## firefist (Jan 19, 2010)

KidTony said:


> it is still better than anything bleach has ever done.



soul society arc disagrees.


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## KidTony (Jan 19, 2010)

Firefist said:


> soul society arc disagrees.



SS arc sucks too, just not as bad as the other bleach arcs.


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## MdB (Jan 19, 2010)

Firefist said:


> soul society arc disagrees.



Soul Society is even more dragged out than the Whitebeard war. That story arc is just too generic. Bleach was at its best when it still had the monster of the week theme.


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## firefist (Jan 19, 2010)

MdB said:


> Soul Society is even more dragged out than the Whitebeard war. That story arc is just too generic. Bleach was at its best when it still had the monster of the week theme.



Care to explain which parts specifically? I don't recall it dragging out.


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## Lucaniel (Jan 19, 2010)

Eh, I think Karakura and SS were the high point of Bleach.

That aside, from what I've read of Hajime no Ippo, the fights are pretty great. Veritas gets a big mention, as do Samurai Deeper Kyo and Yu Yu Hakusho. Also HxH. Need to re-read that.


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## MdB (Jan 19, 2010)

Firefist said:


> Care to explain which parts specifically? I don't recall it dragging out.



Too many fights that weren't necessary and lasted way too long. The entire arc had barely any storytelling in relation to its length. Shit sucked.


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## Lightysnake (Jan 19, 2010)

KidTony said:


> Which is the point, fights being resolved in crappy ways with crappy hax techniques. I actually liked that fight, except the horrible, horrible end--which is why none of these fights compare to their part 1 counterparts in quality.


It's starting to get old when I keep pointing out how few fights are resolved whatsoever by hax techniques and you keep ignoring it




> The strategy was a clone feint, no matter how you dress that up at the end of the day that's what it was; which is elementary and mickey mouse. Also, Kakuzu surived because of his multiple lifes, if that hits anyone else they're gone. Which is my point, ultrahax tehcniques introduced at the end of the fights--Imo that's boring.


Kakuzu had one heart in his body, two outside. He survived due to unique body structure.
And yet, despite the whine here, I don't see any issue with numerous "My Devil fruit vs. yours" fights in OP. 
And wow, Naruto used actual strategy to take an opponent coupled with said opponent's ignorance of him. That's so elementary and not what fighting is about



> According to most naruto fans on this site. You don't even adress my propsal of making a poll to see what people like more, that's because you know I'm right, part 1 fights would win by a *landslide.*


Or maybe it's because *I don't give a darn about that?*
Popularity doesn't equal quality for starters and it's telling so few people bashing it can actually say what happened in it




> Kakashi has never fought in the whole series except against Zabusa, let alone in part two.


Hey, here's where I call you out for blatant ignorance:
Kakashi also fought Kakuzu and God Realm



> Using MS against a deidara with no hands and a skirmish with pain and kakuzu don't count as full fights.


"Well, sure they fought, but those don't count as full fights. I mean sure they lasted a few chapters and they were exchanging blows and jutsu and everything and Kakashio died at the end of one, but they don't count." This makes sense...how?
And yeah, Deidara lacked hands because Kakashi kinda took one. 



> Shikamaru and Gaara fought, that's it. Kages are nice, but that's not the point. What happened to all the characters we liked from part 1? What happened to lee and neji, and shino and chouji and kiba?


Why bother when you'll dismiss any action they actually see as not being 'real fights' by some weird, convoluted standard?


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## firefist (Jan 19, 2010)

MdB said:


> Too many fights that weren't necessary and lasted way too long. The entire arc had barely any storytelling in relation to its length. Shit sucked.




Wasn't it the purpose of the whole arc? Creating unnecessary fights to disturb Soul Society?


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## Superstars (Jan 19, 2010)

*Evil overload*, my man *Lightysnake* is handling you on the Naruto end. I read over his posts and he understands the series and posts without bias but with truth. 



			
				Evil overload said:
			
		

> And on Bleach: Sure, Shinji and Shunsui had some nice Bankai's with a sense of tactic. But this wasn't neccesary as most fiughts after the war were simply driven by pure brute force. And what tactic is hitting with 2 hands or with awesome "Lulz, resolve force power up deus ex machina!". But I have to admit, the quality didn't decline that much as in Naruto because Bleach fights were never that tactical to begin with; only better implemented into the story. Which brings me back to my original arguments that you also have to look at the premise and the discrepance of the intention and the execution to porper jugde fights. There is the main difference between the old and the new Bleach if you will so.



Not really, Bleach fights concerning the plot has _always_ been _"to stop so and so or fight to save so and so"_ just like any other generic shounen [One Piece]. And did you know Kenpachi using both hands to add more power to his swing is truth in real life as well? Did you know other shounen like Rurouni Kenshin have used that technique as well? It's not a DEM or a "plotkai" or any other label people like to give but it is a true technique. Kenpachi who always swung his sword with one hand decided to use both hands in that decent battle against Noitara. That is character development, so I don't know why you think Bleach changed [but even you admitted Bleach has not declined that much] because it hasn't it always is a mix up of brawls and tactics.



> I think is war in underwhelming, yet you still brand me as a "tard". I also loathed Impel Down. However, given the nature of your posts I guess this is you in a nutshell. You're just like handofjustice: Someone who not only wants to admit simple and obvious (yes, it is obvious) facts, but your sole objective seems to cause mischief between the other members. You should be ashamed of yourself as a poster and an arguer.



Wrong, I'm not the one who said the one piece war is better than all of Bleach arcs, lol.


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## KidTony (Jan 19, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> It's starting to get old when I keep pointing out how few fights are resolved whatsoever by hax techniques and you keep ignoring it



So that deidara fight wasn't? That kakuzu fight wasn't? That pain vs Naruto fight wasn't? That sasuke vs KB wasn't? That Itachi vs. Sasuke fight wasn't? What do you call that hydromega bomb of doom, the rasenshuriken, MS, Chibaku Tensei, Kirin, Susanoo, Kisame's mega water prison, the 8 tails, etc. Even in the latest chapters Danzo is about to unleash some kind of ultimate forbidden sharingan technique.

I *understand* that these characters are strong and have powerful techniques, *but I don't like it*. I don't think the quality of the fights are as good as before because of the overuse of these broken forbidden powers that usuallly the character had saved up till the end of the fight. I like it much better how it was before, and a lot of people around here seem to agree.




> Kakuzu had one heart in his body, two outside. He survived due to unique body structure.
> And yet, despite the whine here, I don't see any issue with numerous "My Devil fruit vs. yours" fights in OP.
> And wow, Naruto used actual strategy to take an opponent coupled with said opponent's ignorance of him. That's so elementary and not what fighting is about



Yes, it's elementary and not to mention preety fucking boring too. Not only did Naruto win that fight using make-shift 'strategy', there was nothing exciting or particualrly compelling about that fight, which i feel is the case with 99% of part two fights as opposed to classics from part one.

In addition, we weren't talking about OP were we? I know what I'm going to get in my OP fights. The quality *of naruto* fights took a clear dive for the worse after part two, and you seem to be one of three people who diagree.




> it's because *I don't give a darn about that?*
> Popularity doesn't equal quality for starters and it's telling so few people bashing it can actually say what happened in it



Maybe is because you actually know I'm right and are arguing for the sake of keeping your troll reputation up. There obviously have to be a *reason why so many more *people enjoy part one fights better. This isn't a question of right or wrong, it's a question of personal enjoyment. Why is it that part one stuff is generally so much better recieved?





> "Well, sure they fought, but those don't count as full fights. I mean sure they lasted a few chapters and they were exchanging blows and jutsu and everything and Kakashio died at the end of one, but they don't count." This makes sense...how?
> And yeah, Deidara lacked hands because Kakashi kinda took one.



If you want to call those fights then you'd have to call Naruto vs Deidara a fight as well. I don't know how easily you're stasified but those didn't do it for me.




> her when you'll dismiss any action they actually see as not being 'real fights' by some weird, convoluted standard?



Good way to avoid my argument. Specially since i said part of the reason i didn't like part two fights is because of the absence of my favorite characters who usually fought in part one. The variety of different techniques and styles is what made naruto cool in the first place, not sharingan oversaturation.


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## MdB (Jan 19, 2010)

Firefist said:


> Wasn't it the purpose of the whole arc? Creating unnecessary fights to disturb Soul Society?



That's like saying ''The skirmishes that lack a conclusion in The Whitebeard War are meant to prolong the execution of Ace''.


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## Mider T (Jan 19, 2010)

Soul Eater, YuYu Hakusho, Rurouni Kenshin, Bleach, Psyren, and more.


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## Lightysnake (Jan 19, 2010)

KidTony said:


> So that deidara fight wasn't? That kakuzu fight wasn't? That pain vs Naruto fight wasn't? That sasuke vs KB wasn't? That Itachi vs. Sasuke fight wasn't? What do you call that hydromega bomb of doom, the rasenshuriken, MS, Chibaku Tensei, Kirin, Susanoo, Kisame's mega water prison, the 8 tails, etc. Even in the latest chapters Danzo is about to unleash some kind of ultimate forbidden sharingan technique.


The Deidara fight wasn't, no, as the MS failed to kill him and Deidara was trying to escape rather than fight back. The Kakuzu fight? Just trying to spam FRS failed. Hence why Kakuzu had to be trapped.
The Itachi fight was Itachi going all out with his techniques to force Orochimaru out of Sasuke rather than just 'game ending attacks' again and again. Kisame...using a jutsu we alreayd knew about in a different way against his opponent?

So the complaint is first "The fights are just who has the bigger Jutsu." Now it's "But they USE powerful jutsu!" Yes, KT, it's SO shocking powerful people will use powerful jutsu! I mean, it's not like most fights in the series are done via Jutsu! Hey, why not complain about Sasori using powerful puppets! Never mind at so few points is having a strong jutsu what ends the game at all.
I'm sorry, but do you ever whine about the Devil fruit overabundance in OP? 
And 'unleash some ultimate' MS technique? He's been using it, hence why he's alive



> I *understand* that these characters are strong and have powerful techniques, *but I don't like it*. I don't think the quality of the fights are as good as before because of the overuse of these broken forbidden powers that usuallly the character had saved up till the end of the fight. I like it much better how it was before, and a lot of people around here seem to agree.


And I'm saying you *Have double standard* for what you like and don't because you fail to complain about anyone in OP spamming their Devil Fruit powers to hell and back-especially when Luffy tends to end his fights via 'Gomu Gomu no *Insert noun here*' 
Did you complain in part 1 when they ALSO used jutsu? Because the complaint that "I don't like that they use the primary mode of fighting in the series" is as idiotic as saying "I don't like that Guts kills things by hitting it with his sword"






> Yes, it's elementary and not to mention preety fucking boring too. Not only did Naruto win that fight using make-shift 'strategy', there was nothing exciting or particualrly compelling about that fight, which i feel is the case with 99% of part two fights as opposed to classics from part one.


Yeah, that might happen when you only give the barest glance at the chapters. [/Quote]
When they use Jutsu you complain, when they use strategy you complain. In other words, you're complaining no matter what.
What plan would have been acceptable precisely? Heavens, Naruto used the technique he'd been working on the entire arc....and hey, just trying to spam it failed so he had to trick his opponent to secure victory.
...so?



> In addition, we weren't talking about OP were we? I know what I'm going to get in my OP fights. The quality *of naruto* fights took a clear dive for the worse after part two, and you seem to be one of three people who diagree.


'Three?' Last I checked, it's a best seller still and plenty people around the internet like it. Yeah, quality =/= popularity, but you mentioned 'people disagree' which quite frankly is too bold a statement. 
I know plenty who think it's gotten better due to characters actually
And you know something? After your cheerleading of Zephos in the last topic and your whining at me there, I feel fine bringing up OP as a measure of double standard and hypocrisy that.
And what standard are we holding OP up to, exactly? "I want to see Luffy hit it a lot?" 





> Maybe is because you actually know I'm right and are arguing for the sake of keeping your troll reputation up. There obviously have to be a *reason why so many more *people enjoy part one fights better. This isn't a question of right or wrong, it's a question of personal enjoyment. Why is it that part one stuff is generally so much better recieved?


You know, it's pathetic how you bitch and moan and throw the constant tantrum of "I'm right and you know it!" when most of your information is blatantly wrong, your points consist of "I say so" over and over and it boils down to you being totally incapable of getting the concept that people can disagree with you and not be stupid or misguided, let alone the concept "Well, a few of my cheerleading buddies here think part 1 was better, it must be true!" When the issue is pretty divisive in the fandom. 
And hey, let's play 'spot the contradiction.
KidTony: Maybe is because you actually know I'm right
KidTony:This isn't a question of right or wrong, it's a question of personal enjoyment.
You know, it takes TALENT to forget what one was saying a few sentences prior. 





> If you want to call those fights then you'd have to call Naruto vs Deidara a fight as well. I don't know how easily you're stasified but those didn't do it for me.


Naruto vs. Deidara lasted...what, two pages, with Deidara substituting out immediately? 
What about them 'wasn't a fight?' Kakashi started off against Kakuzu and Hidan, they were trying to kill one another, using different techniques on the other, and it ended when Naruto arrived. What about that isn't a fight?
God Realm: Several chapters spent of...again, using techniques and different strategies in attacking the other, when help arrived for Kakashi, ending with Pain defeating them and moving on...and Kakashi dead.
Pain vs. Iruka isn't a fight. Kakashi against God Realm sure as hell was





> Good way to avoid my argument. Specially since i said part of the reason i didn't like part two fights is because of the absence of my favorite characters who usually fought in part one.


See, that's a legitimate complaint. I can understand perfectly well the complaint that Kishimoto under uses people.
And see? you're also admitting it's down to opinion


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## firefist (Jan 19, 2010)

MdB said:


> That's like saying ''The skirmishes that lack a conclusion in The Whitebeard War are meant to prolong the execution of Ace''.



but in soul society the main thing plotwise was how to get to the hogyoku from rukia's body, the fights just happend because the gotei split apart that time.
but yes, the battle-plot ratio wasn't perfect but it was fine.


oh well...
it looks like it's more of a personal favor in this case.


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## MdB (Jan 19, 2010)

Firefist said:


> but in soul society the main thing plotwise was how to get to the hogyoku from rukia's body, the fights just happend because the gotei split apart that time.
> but yes, the battle-plot ratio wasn't perfect but it was fine.
> 
> 
> ...



And to do that, they didn't need to extend on every frivolous fight in order to reach what they wanted to achieve. The story took a major step down for the sake of creating monotonous conflicts. That's more of a flaw than a personal fancy.

And I am someone who is naturally willing to overlook the overused formula of excessiveness in a shounen series. But with Bleach, there's barely anything to explore outside of the gratuitous combat, seeing as the world-building and storyline are completely irskome and uninteresting, making it more predominant than it originally should have been.


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## KidTony (Jan 19, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> The Deidara fight wasn't, no, as the MS failed to kill him and Deidara was trying to escape rather than fight back. The Kakuzu fight? Just trying to spam FRS failed. Hence why Kakuzu had to be trapped.
> The Itachi fight was Itachi going all out with his techniques to force Orochimaru out of Sasuke rather than just 'game ending attacks' again and again. Kisame...using a jutsu we alreayd knew about in a different way against his opponent?/



-Deidara vs Sasuke, which was resolved by Deidara self destructing and Sasuke having to dimension warp himself out the area.

-Kakuzu, after failing to acheive anything with his flaming tornados of doom, lost to Naruto's version of the destructo disk, which by the way attacks you at the celular level and is a one hit kill 99.9% percent of the time. 

-Itachi vs. Sasuke, after an incredibly dragged out mind rape war, we get an almost unstobable gigantic lightningbolt which takes almost no chakra to execute...only to be stopped by an intagible giant energy thing with the power to seal away anything into permanent illusions and has apparently no weakness but the time it takes to charge up.

Shall I go on?



> So the complaint is first "The fights are just who has the bigger Jutsu." Now it's "But they USE powerful jutsu!" Yes, KT, it's SO shocking powerful people will use powerful jutsu! I mean, it's not like most fights in the series are done via Jutsu! Hey, why not complain about Sasori using powerful puppets! Never mind at so few points is having a strong jutsu what ends the game at all.
> I'm sorry, but do you ever whine about the Devil fruit overabundance in OP?
> And 'unleash some ultimate' MS technique? He's been using it, hence why he's alive



The complaint is that the fights suck. Weather it is because they all come down to my rank-S jutsu beats yours or because of the lack of variety in characters, or because of underwhelming and anticlimactic endings, the complaint has always been that naruto fights in part two are ridiculously inferior to the pre-TS ones.



> And I'm saying you *Have double standard* for what you like and don't because you fail to complain about anyone in OP spamming their Devil Fruit powers to hell and back-especially when Luffy tends to end his fights via 'Gomu Gomu no *Insert noun here*'
> Did you complain in part 1 when they ALSO used jutsu? Because the complaint that "I don't like that they use the primary mode of fighting in the series" is as idiotic as saying "I don't like that Guts kills things by hitting it with his sword"



I don't have any problem with OP fights. First, because fights in OP to me are secondary as opposed to naruto which the only thing of interest is the fights. Second, I've been telling you for three pages now that I liked fights in part one because: 

a) Very little to no over-relliance on hax.
b) Variety in characters used and fighting styles
c) More empahsis on strategy than on powerful techniques
b) Satisfying and climactic finishes

And don't like the ones post time-skip because:

a) Fights are filled with godly, uninteresting techniques
b) Overuse of the same couple of characters and absense from my favorites.
c) Watered down 'strategy'
b) No defined mechanics in the chakra system (what happened to light/dark nature?)
c) Awful anticlimcatic endings filled with PIS.

I don't get what you don't understand.




> Yeah, that might happen when you only give the barest glance at the chapters.



With the quality of naruto chapters lately, a single glance is all they're worth.




> You know, it's pathetic how you bitch and moan and throw the constant tantrum of "I'm right and you know it!" when most of your information is blatantly wrong, your points consist of "I say so" over and over and it boils down to you being totally incapable of getting the concept that people can disagree with you and not be stupid or misguided, let alone the concept "Well, a few of my cheerleading buddies here think part 1 was better, it must be true!" When the issue is pretty divisive in the fandom.
> And hey, let's play 'spot the contradiction.
> KidTony: Maybe is because you actually know I'm right
> KidTony:This isn't a question of right or wrong, it's a question of personal enjoyment.
> You know, it takes TALENT to forget what one was saying a few sentences prior.



You don't get it.

I'm right in the fact that the overwhelming majority of naruto fans liked part one better. That is easily noticible if you only take a peak in the naruto section, and on other naruto fansites with an active community. I've been following Naruto since the konoha invasion arc in part one, and never did i see the level of complaining and disapointed fans back then that I am seeing since 10 chapters into part 2.

There has to be a reason for why so many people have a problem with part two naruto, and not just the fights (although a big part of the bitching come from there) but at the story in general.





> Naruto vs. Deidara lasted...what, two pages, with Deidara substituting out immediately?
> What about them 'wasn't a fight?' Kakashi started off against Kakuzu and Hidan, they were trying to kill one another, using different techniques on the other, and it ended when Naruto arrived. What about that isn't a fight?
> God Realm: Several chapters spent of...again, using techniques and different strategies in attacking the other, when help arrived for Kakashi, ending with Pain defeating them and moving on...and Kakashi dead.
> Pain vs. Iruka isn't a fight. Kakashi against God Realm sure as hell was



I take it back. Kakashi vs. Pain was actually enjoyable for me. I don't really consider it a fight because it was shorter and lacked resolution, but it was good. 

On the other hand, Kakashi vs Kakuzu was no fight. He held of kakauzu's lightning attack and dodged his bigger fire one only to be saved by naruto and co--That is not a fight, although if you want to count it as one go ahead, it's only another example of a crappy fight in part two.

I also liked that you mentioned Kakashi died vs pain as to add some credence to your argument, as if dying somehow made the fight more serious or cool or something. Nevermind that he came back from death in one of the most horrible plot devices in the whole series.




> See, that's a legitimate complaint. I can understand perfectly well the complaint that Kishimoto under uses people.
> And see? you're also admitting it's down to opinion




Is it really opinion that he underuses characters? Or that he oversaturates the story with repeated themes like the sharingan which most people are sick and tired off already?


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## robotnik (Jan 19, 2010)

moon **


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## Whimsy (Jan 19, 2010)

The main thrust of the fights in part 2 Naruto aren't so bad, it's the terrible terrible conclusions that stick in my craw. Rather than having a clever sensible finish it's always  deus ex machina, ridiculousness and wasted potential. That's the difference between part 1 and part 2.


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## KidTony (Jan 19, 2010)

^This. I think you've said it all.


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## Glued (Jan 19, 2010)

Baki the Grappler, New Grappler Baki, Baki- Son of the Ogre, Baki Gaiden Scarface. Also Garouden

Here is something from New Grappler Baki


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## Nuzzie (Jan 19, 2010)

has pickle been beaten yet


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## Lightysnake (Jan 19, 2010)

KidTony said:


> -Deidara vs Sasuke, which was resolved by Deidara self destructing and Sasuke having to dimension warp himself out the area.


Yeah, that's not some magical suddenly introduced Jutsu. Sasuke has had the ability to summon for a while. The issue was the time it was done in.
And Deidara has always used explosions



> -Kakuzu, after failing to acheive anything with his flaming tornados of doom, lost to Naruto's version of the destructo disk, which by the way attacks you at the celular level and is a one hit kill 99.9% percent of the time.


Naruto had already dispelled his elemental attacks before. He didn't need to waste the chakra either



> -Itachi vs. Sasuke, after an incredibly dragged out mind rape war, we get an almost unstobable gigantic lightningbolt which takes almost no chakra to execute...only to be stopped by an intagible giant energy thing with the power to seal away anything into permanent illusions and has apparently no weakness but the time it takes to charge up.


And what you're leaving out is neither ended the battle and Itachi basically killed himself via its use.
So, are you complaining how the battles end or that they use special techniques in the battle.
Curiously, no whining about Lucci's "I can turn into a LEOPARD."



> Shall I go on?


Please do continue the misconception




> The complaint is that the fights suck. Weather it is because they all come down to my rank-S jutsu beats yours or because of the lack of variety in characters, or because of underwhelming and anticlimactic endings, the complaint has always been that naruto fights in part two are ridiculously inferior to the pre-TS ones.


Wow, you mean people use attacks that beat other peoples' attacks? I mean, that's not FIGHTING! 




> I don't have any problem with OP fights. First, because fights in OP to me are secondary as opposed to naruto which the only thing of interest is the fights. Second, I've been telling you for three pages now that I liked fights in part one because:


Right. Fights in a Shonen action series are 'secondary.' I mean, not like OP places even more emphasis on Devil Fruit Powers and has the same issues with seemingly pre scripted fight match ups...
Hell, just look at Enies Lobby. When Sanji. Nami and Zoro pulled new techniques out their asses



> a) Very little to no over-relliance on hax.


Define 'hax'


> b) Variety in characters used and fighting styles


Right part 2 doesn't have that with far more fighting styles and jutsu


> c) More empahsis on strategy than on powerful techniques


Such as...? Part 2 has far more of that.
You seem to just whine like a child that they even use powerful techniques



> b) Satisfying and climactic finishes


Example.



> And don't like the ones post time-skip because:
> 
> a) Fights are filled with godly, uninteresting techniques


"Waaaaah, they use TECHNIQUES!"


> b) Overuse of the same couple of characters and absense from my favorites.


"Waaaaah, my irrelevant side characters don't hog the spotlight."


> c) Watered down 'strategy'


"Waaaaah, they use more strategy than in part 1! I hate that except when it's in series I like!"


> b) No defined mechanics in the chakra system (what happened to light/dark nature?)


"Waaaaaah, they don't give me a scientific measurement system for fictional energy even though they already spent an arc explaining it in part 2."


> c) Awful anticlimcatic endings filled with PIS.


"Waaaah, they don't end the way I was expecting."
I keep asking for some and the only one that's a genuine example is Sasuke vs. Deidara



> I don't get what you don't understand.


Well it's simple:
Your points suck, they're full of hypocrisy, factual inaccuracies and stupidity. Simple enough for even you?





> With the quality of naruto chapters lately, a single glance is all they're worth.


So you admit you don't even read them?
*Credible opinion, folks*





> You don't get it.


"Waaaaaaah, you don't agree with me."



> I'm right in the fact that the overwhelming majority of naruto fans liked part one better.


"Waaaaah, if I say it enough times it's true!"
Scientific evidence? I missed this Great Naruto Fan Meeting that decided that part 1 was better



> That is easily noticible if you only take a peak in the naruto section, and on other naruto fansites with an active community. I've been following Naruto since the konoha invasion arc in part one, and never did i see the level of complaining and disapointed fans back then that I am seeing since 10 chapters into part 2.


Noticeable there was less of an American fanbase until part 1 ended. Coincidence?



> There has to be a reason for why so many people have a problem with part two naruto, and not just the fights (although a big part of the bitching come from there) but at the story in general.


Maybe it has to do with you ignoring anything that doesn't support your idiotic bias?






> I take it back. Kakashi vs. Pain was actually enjoyable for me. I don't really consider it a fight because it was shorter and lacked resolution, but it was good.


What about it 'lacked resolution' precisely? Kakashi died at the end of it. How much more resolution do you want?
How many chapters does a fight to be, too? It was like 3 chapters at least



> On the other hand, Kakashi vs Kakuzu was no fight. He held of kakauzu's lightning attack and dodged his bigger fire one only to be saved by naruto and co--That is not a fight, although if you want to count it as one go ahead, it's only another example of a crappy fight in part two.


Kakuzu started off kicking him away...then had Hidan attack where he tried a sneak attack  with his wind blast, to which Kakashi dodged, then intercepted the lightning one and then the fire one, to which they engaged in a Taijutsu fight, which ended when Kakuzu 'died' thanks to Shikamaru and Hidan...to which they briefly fought again, ending with Naruto saving them from his next attack.
Yeah, that's a fight



> I also liked that you mentioned Kakashi died vs pain as to add some credence to your argument, as if dying somehow made the fight more serious or cool or something. Nevermind that he came back from death in one of the most horrible plot devices in the whole series.


Sure cuts off your bitching there was no resolution.
And wow, it's not like they mentioned the Rinnegan had the power over life and death and it was one of his bodies' powers or anything...






> Is it really opinion that he underuses characters? Or that he oversaturates the story with repeated themes like the sharingan which most people are sick and tired off already?



"If I feel it, it's universal TRUTH!"


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## robotnik (Jan 19, 2010)

this is like some retarded battledome thread


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## robotnik (Jan 19, 2010)

complete with the two page long posts and the zephos ban


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## p-lou (Jan 19, 2010)

and b for bad


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 19, 2010)

p-lou said:


> and b for bad


Why do you keep doing that?


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## ~Greed~ (Jan 19, 2010)

1.GetBackers
2.Flame of Recca
3.Negima
4.Xblade
5.Samurai deeper kyo
6.Deadman Wonderland
7.Needless
8.World Embryo
9.Alive - The Final Evolution
10.Black cat

Really in no particular order though.


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## SAFFF (Jan 19, 2010)

i'm curious what kind of fight scenes does GetBackers have? I've watched the anime adaption years ago and there was rarely any fighting in it. I take it it was a bastard version of the manga?

whoa shit! someone mentioned Alive!


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## Glued (Jan 19, 2010)

Nuzzie said:


> has pickle been beaten yet



I don't know, but Baki probably will defeat him.

Retsu, Katsumi and Jack have already jobbed to Pickle.

Losing to Pickle proves nothing for Baki.


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## ~Greed~ (Jan 19, 2010)

Supreme Alchemist Fan said:


> i'm curious what kind of fight scenes does GetBackers have? I've watched the anime adaption years ago and there was rarely any fighting in it. I take it it was a bastard version of the manga?



They really butchered the manga when they made the anime. I would recomend reading the manga if all youve seen is that anime. 



> whoa shit! someone mentioned Alive!



That's because Alive is awesome.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 19, 2010)

OH, I forgot to add I like FMA's fighting scenes. Shame Avatar: The Last Airbender isn't Shonen too, I'd add the excellent fight scenes there.


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## c3zz4rr (Jan 19, 2010)

worst and crows are some of the shonens with the best fights....but Ill have to think about a whole list.....btw i see that lightysnake is pwning people in this thread and to be honest i like part 2 of naruto more than the first


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## KidTony (Jan 19, 2010)

I'm beginning to sense that I'm wasting my time with you. When you post stuff like 

"Waaaaah, my irrelevant side characters don't hog the spotlight."

is obvious you simply don't get it, and aren't likely to ever get it. Either that or you like being a troll, which im pretty sure you do.


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## Haohmaru (Jan 19, 2010)

I think the main problem with a lot of shonens in general is: how can you still make the fights smart and strategic without putting too much an emfasis on power levels? Especially with Bleach I've noticed that once characters got a certain amount of power, strategy didn't matter. Not that it really had that big of a part in Bleach fights. I believe Naruto doesn't have this problem. It has that freaking Sharingan thing though, which I didn't mind that much before the 1000 eyes in your arm thing. Seriously that made me almost hate Naruto. 
One manga that has always been great with fights is HxH. Power levels have been stable and in the end it's about who uses their abilities in the best way. Of course some abilities are better than others. Only power related thing that was kinda out there, was the enormous and frightening nen of the ants, compared to what we know as the strongest Nen users we've seen so far. I don't know about you guys, but that kinda came as a shock to me. 

@~Greed, is it me, or are a lot of those not shonen


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 19, 2010)

KidTony said:


> I'm beginning to sense that I'm wasting my time with you. When you post stuff like
> 
> "Waaaaah, my irrelevant side characters don't hog the spotlight."
> 
> is obvious you simply don't get it, and aren't likely to ever get it. Either that or you like being a troll, which im pretty sure you do.


You do know how big of a hypocrite you are, KidTony? You have shown that you have payed zero attention to the Naruto fights, ignore everything, and then you have the gall to call Lightysnake a troll? Pot, meet Kettle.


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## Superstars (Jan 20, 2010)

Yeah, *Lightysnake* was spot on with his posts about the Naruto fights. It's just the one piece fandom don't wanna except the real truths about it.


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## Lightysnake (Jan 20, 2010)

KidTony said:


> I'm beginning to sense that I'm wasting my time with you. When you post stuff like
> 
> "Waaaaah, my irrelevant side characters don't hog the spotlight."
> 
> is obvious you simply don't get it, and aren't likely to ever get it. Either that or you like being a troll, which im pretty sure you do.



I love how your recourse is to bitch "You're a troll, sob moan, cry" when you spend most of the time cheerleading Zephos on, bashing anyone who doesn't share your taste and being a complete hypocrite.


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## SAFFF (Jan 20, 2010)

Superstars said:


> Yeah, *Lightysnake* was spot on with his posts about the Naruto fights. It's just the one piece fandom don't wanna except the real truths about it.



Since when was this even about OP? I think we all can agree OP fights are mediocre and at times even shit. That doesn't mean a OP fan can't bash Naruto fights for being mediocre at times and shit as well. Most of part 2 has been like this outside of Shikamaru vs somebody and Sakura vs Sasori almost all the fights revolve around sasuke's overpowered eye illusions and naruto's lame trump cards which are just kage bushin feints + resangan strategies.

Pain was outsmarted by Naruto which i still find lame and unbelievable in naruto's world. Its just as bad as Sasuke being able to match up with Kages.


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## Superstars (Jan 20, 2010)

Supreme Alchemist Fan said:


> Since when was this even about OP? I think we all can agree OP fights are mediocre and at times even shit. That doesn't mean a OP fan can't bash Naruto fights for being mediocre at times and shit as well..




Nah the fandom can not cause it is proven that they are butthurt and bias about it.


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## robotnik (Jan 20, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Why do you keep doing that?


this post is b for bad


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## Lightysnake (Jan 20, 2010)

Supreme Alchemist Fan said:


> Since when was this even about OP? I think we all can agree OP fights are mediocre and at times even shit. That doesn't mean a OP fan can't bash Naruto fights for being mediocre at times and shit as well. Most of part 2 has been like this outside of Shikamaru vs somebody and Sakura vs Sasori almost all the fights revolve around sasuke's overpowered eye illusions and naruto's lame trump cards which are just kage bushin feints + resangan strategies.
> 
> Pain was outsmarted by Naruto which i still find lame and unbelievable in naruto's world. Its just as bad as Sasuke being able to match up with Kages.



They got training for years with two of the Sannin and have continued to improve since.

And I bring up OP because a lot of those bashing Naruto's are complete One Piece fanboys who think it's flawless


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## SAFFF (Jan 20, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> *They got training for years with two of the Sannin and have continued to improve since.*
> 
> And I bring up OP because a lot of those bashing Naruto's are complete One Piece fanboys who think it's flawless



Oh yeah i remember that! Didn't Naruto go training with Jiraya for 2 and a half years and came back with no new techniques or abilities to showcase when going against the akatuski?


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## Lightysnake (Jan 20, 2010)

Jiraiya specifically barred him from using some of them because of ow dangerous they could be.


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## Chita (Jan 20, 2010)

One Piece, FMA


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## firefist (Jan 20, 2010)

MdB said:


> And to do that, they didn't need to extend on every frivolous fight in order to reach what they wanted to achieve. The story took a major step down for the sake of creating monotonous conflicts. That's more of a flaw than a personal fancy.
> 
> And I am someone who is naturally willing to overlook the overused formula of excessiveness in a shounen series. But with Bleach, there's barely anything to explore outside of the gratuitous combat, seeing as the world-building and storyline are completely irskome and uninteresting, making it more predominant than it originally should have been.



but it was quite bearable back then. atleast some of the fights had some plot connection.


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## MdB (Jan 20, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> And I bring up OP because a lot of those bashing Naruto's are complete One Piece fanboys who think it's flawless



Using overgeneralisations to justify your reasoning. My god, that's retarded.


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## Tempproxy (Jan 20, 2010)

I actually like Naruto fights except for the Pain one, hell they are a lot better than One piece fights.


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## gohan10 (Jan 21, 2010)

HAjime no Ippo One piece, Naruto(mostly part1),bleach(mostly SS arc),Yu Yu hakusho, soul eater, Ruroni Kenshin.... also that confrontation in the gym in slam dunk gets a special mention

I'm reading JJBA atm and the fights are interesting as well.


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## C-Moon (Jan 21, 2010)

Superstars said:


> Nah the fandom can not cause it is proven that they are butthurt and bias about it.



Give it a rest WHITEBEARDO.


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## Lightysnake (Jan 21, 2010)

MdB said:


> Using overgeneralisations to justify your reasoning. My god, that's retarded.



When you see it left and right on several forums, it ceases to become an over generalization.


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## Abigail (Jan 21, 2010)

No, it's still an over-generalization.


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## ArtieBoy (Jan 21, 2010)

I like my shonen fights like this


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeM0rH_4ung&feature=related[/YOUTUBE] 

but they tend to end up like  this
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL8P677iCMQ[/YOUTUBE]


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## MdB (Jan 21, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> When you see it left and right on several forums, it ceases to become an over generalization.



Weren't you the one to openly condemn Zephos? Yeah, contemplate about that for a while.


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