# EMS Sasuke and BSM Naruto vs SM Hashirama



## Sufex (Mar 29, 2019)

Location: VOTE
Knowledge: Manga
Distance: 100M
Restrictions: None
Stipulations/Notes: Naruto and sauce that fought jubito

This is VOTE Hashirama that fought madara



VS


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## Grinningfox (Mar 29, 2019)

Team


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## Cad Bane (Mar 29, 2019)

Hashirama wins high difficulty. His wooden constructs are extremely durable and he himself has good self healing. Amaterasu can be avoided by Hashirama hiding inside his wood statues and avoiding Sasuke's line of sight. Rasenshurikens could be an issue though, but I'm not sure if Hashirama's Wood Style can tank them, A3 tanked it without much damage so it's definitely possible.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Mar 29, 2019)

Hashirama already beat the 100% wrapped in Perfect Susano. He wins.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Mar 29, 2019)

Hashi wins.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tanto (Mar 29, 2019)

Hashirama couldn't even Kill Kakuzu. Naruto and Sasuke win without much difficulty. He's still vulnerable to genjutsu  he's looked Asspulldara in the eyes multiple times while he knew he was an Uchiha, so him making eye contact with Sasuke is completely plausible.
There's no way he's tanking Susanoo arrows and Tbb's.


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## Sufex (Mar 29, 2019)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Hashirama already beat the 100% wrapped in Perfect Susano. He wins.




Naruto and sasuke Susanoo Kuruma avatar > Mindraped Kyubi with Madara susanoo

Its stated Jins are stronger than just beasts on their own; partly because they can control and focus the power better, plus they can use jutsu with the avatar


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## Trojan (Mar 29, 2019)

Narudo alone would win more times than not high difficulty.
With Sasuke here, they will win for sure...


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## King1 (Mar 29, 2019)

Hashirama wins once he starts using SM and it’s techs

Full Kurama iso greater than BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke ISO Susano and Hashirama dealt with it easily with SS

Full Kurama Iso can spam more TBB, have greater fire power, greater durability compared to BSM Naruto iso and can last longer than BSM Naruto’s Iso


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## MaruUchiha (Mar 29, 2019)

Bijuu Sage Mode Naruto soloes.. Hell even Sasuke might solo since I don't even know what Hashirama would do against an out the gate Amaterasu which is extremely in character for EMS Sasuke. Susanoo Kurama mid diffs


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## King1 (Mar 29, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Bijuu Sage Mode Naruto soloes.


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## Kronus (Mar 29, 2019)

Naruto and Sasuke win. Kurama’s knowledge of Hashirama’s abilities plays a huge role.

Since Kurama knows the arms on its back are the most dangerous part of SS, he’ll tell them to aim for them. He should be quick enough to evade the SS until Sasuke and Naruto to destroy most of its arms.

Cloaked Sasuke’s amped Amaterasu and BSM Rasenshuriken are perfect for destroying the Shinsuusenju’s arms when combined.

After that, Naruto and Sasuke can blast it or chop it down.


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## Speedyamell (Mar 29, 2019)

Combining Bm and Sm already puts Naruto at that hashi level.. having a backup like Sasuke seals the win

Reactions: Like 3


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## blk (Mar 29, 2019)

Seems like, in this forum, the founders are either overestimated (especially when against canonically weaker characters but in unfavorable conditions) or underestimated (like in this case i would say).

Hashirama already won against a similar kind of power when he fought against Madara at VOTE, i'm not sure why he wouldn't win in this scenario too. I would even argue that Madara with the kyuubi is stronger than Naruto + Sasuke since the latter hasn't shown mastery of PS at that point of the story, and Madara was overall a more experienced fighter.

That said, Hashirama can easily counter and defend against bijuudamas and giant rasengans, which are the team's most powerful, and only relevant, abilities. On the other hand various _base_ mokuton constructs can give the two quite an hard time (wood dragon, mokujin, giant wood hands, flower world, and general mokuton spam tbh), if they don't immediately use their combined BSM + PS form. 
But with Hashi's own SM all of these mokutons will be greatly amplified in power, without even mentioning SS for which i just don't see what they can do to survive.

Therefore, Hashirama wins more than not with medium/high difficulty.


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## weegee22 (Mar 29, 2019)

BSM Naruto utterly shits on 100% Kurama, like it's not even a contest. Remember that regular SM Naruto managed to do some decent damage on 50% Kurama, and perfect jins are a lot stronger than their Bijuu on its own. 50% BSM heavily shits on 100% Kurama, SM on its own is a massive multiplier after all.

Now throw in EMS Sasuke, who can perceive Juubito-levels of speed, and they win mid-high diff. Kurama's knowledge of Hashirama's power would be of significant help too.

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 29, 2019)

Hashirama puts a new meaning to "respect your elders" as he beats the living shit out of BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke. 

 Seriously though, Hashirama only wins because of Shinsuusenju. Enton Kagutsuchi and Amaterasu effectively counters Mokuton and Flower Tree World and BSM Naruto's Bijuudama spam on top of Chou Oodama FRS poses a great threat to Hashirama's Mokuton as well. Let's not forget that EMS Sasuke and BSM Naruto kept up with Juubito who is significantly faster than anything SM Hashirama has. Only Shinsuusenju can give Hashirama the win here due to is immense destructive power that stalemated a dozen Bijuudama produced by Full Kurama and PS blades and EMS Sasuke + BSM Naruto don't have that level of fire power.


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## ARGUS (Mar 30, 2019)

This fusion is weaker than the one hashirama already defeated 

He mid diffs here obviously 
Will explain if need be


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## weegee22 (Mar 30, 2019)

ARGUS said:


> This fusion is weaker than the one hashirama already defeated
> 
> He mid diffs here obviously
> Will explain if need be



It'd be nice if you explain how 100% Kurama is somehow superior to BSM Naruto.


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## Serene Grace (Mar 30, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Hell even Sasuke might solo


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## dergeist (Mar 30, 2019)

Hashirama wins Enton seems to be the only problem Hashirama might encounter.


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## blk (Mar 30, 2019)

So far pretty much no one has made an actual argument for why Naruto and Sasuke should win. Just posts with "Naruto is already Hashi level, so he wins with Sasuke". 

Hashi can tank bijudamas with his wooden shield, redirect them, deflect them and even stop Naruto from making them by interfering with the charging process (by spawning giant wooden hands underneath him for example). And that's the only attack of the duo that can threaten Hashirama. 
Giant rasengans can be tanked easily with the wooden shield, but realistically won't ever hit Hashi regardless, since he can stop Naruto from coming close range by casually throwing landscape-changing amounts of mokuton at him. 
The rest of their arsenal probably can't kill Hashi even if they hit him directly, considering his SM durability and Tsunade-tier regeneration. 

On the other hand the duo have no answer to SS and might lose even before that if they get caught by Flower world's pollen, or get separated by massive forests spam (in which case Naruto, with his avatar lacking Susanoo protection, will be helpless against wooden dragon + mokujin, and Sasuke alone is almost fodder to Hashi). 
The gates that used against the 10 tails, juubito and Madara can pose a serious threat too. 

Also, didn't Hashi had a pretty powerful genjutsu that he used against hiruzen? That could cause significant problems for the team. 



weegee22 said:


> It'd be nice if you explain how 100% Kurama is somehow superior to BSM Naruto.



It isn't, but Hashirama didn't fought just 100% Kurama, so the comparison you are making is not very relevant.
100% Kurama alone is almost nothing to Hashirama, he can subdue him in no time (as we saw, in his fight against Madara, when the Susanoo protection was removed, or how wooden dragon was constraining and draining BM Naruto and BM Bee at the same time).
The man did acquire all the bijuu himself after all.


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 30, 2019)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Hashirama already beat the 100% wrapped in Perfect Susano. He wins.


This


The Death & The Strawberry said:


>


Yeah ngl I read that and immediately went


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## MaruUchiha (Mar 30, 2019)

blk said:


> Hashirama already won against a similar kind of power when he fought against Madara at VOTE, i'm not sure why he wouldn't win in this scenario too.


This is extreme ABC logic.. EMS Madara is nowhere near as strong or deadly as Bijuu Sage Mode Naruto and EMS Sasuke together. And EMS Madara's Susanoo Kurama has nowhere near the firepower Naruto and Sasuke's does. Highly doubt Madara's can break a Truth Seeker shield the way Naruto and Sasuke's did


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## weegee22 (Mar 30, 2019)

Hashirama's SS tanked regular TBBs from 100% Kurama. I don't get why Senpo-boosted TBBs wouldn't do much more damage, considering that Sage Mode AT MINIMUM boosts ninjutsu by 10 times. So Senpo TBBs are at worst 5x more powerful than 100% Kurama TBBs.

But now I think about it, Hashi might still pull off a win, especially due to superior stamina.


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## MaruUchiha (Mar 30, 2019)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


>


What does Hashirama do against out the gate Amaterasu? I'm expecting no reply


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## JuicyG (Mar 30, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> Its stated Jins are stronger than just beasts on their own; partly because they can control and focus the power better, plus they can use jutsu with the avatar



Im not sure that is enough to cover a 50% power gap though


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## MaruUchiha (Mar 30, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Yeah ngl I read that and immediately went


Of course. You're a founders wanker. That statement sounds alien to you


MaruUchiha said:


> What does Hashirama do against out the gate Amaterasu? I'm expecting no reply


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## weegee22 (Mar 30, 2019)

JuicyG said:


> Im not sure that is enough to cover a 50% power gap though



Stacking sage mode heavily compensates and exceeds it.


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## MaruUchiha (Mar 30, 2019)

blk said:


> So far pretty much no one has made an actual argument for why Naruto and Sasuke should win. Just posts with "Naruto is already Hashi level, so he wins with Sasuke"


That's because this isn't worth a discussion. Anybody that thinks Hashirama stands a chance here is founders bias and probably even known for being founders bias. This duo was fighting Juubito!


blk said:


> Hashi can tank bijudamas with his wooden shield


Do you think his wooden shield is stronger than a Truth Seeker shield? You do know Naruto broke a Truth Seeker shield and only using like 10 Rasengans right?


blk said:


> And that's the only attack of the duo that can threaten Hashirama


You're ignoring almost their entire arsenal right now dude.. You sure you don't just want Hashirama to win this?


blk said:


> Giant rasengans can be tanked easily with the wooden shield


No they can't. Unless you think wooden shield > Truth Seeker shield


blk said:


> but realistically won't ever hit Hashi regardless


You're not being realistic at all. They hit Juubito, why wouldn't they hit Hashirama? Please stop scaling Hashirama to God Tier


blk said:


> The rest of their arsenal probably can't kill Hashi even if they hit him directly, considering his SM durability and Tsunade-tier regeneration.


What does Hashirama even do against out the gate Amaterasu?


blk said:


> On the other hand the duo have no answer to SS


Bijuu Sage Art: Massive Rasengan Barrage. Besides, Wood Buddha couldn't even defeat Madara's Susanoo Kurama


blk said:


> The gates that used against the 10 tails, juubito and Madara can pose a serious threat too.


He wouldn't even survive long enough for Sage Mode. What does he even do against Amaterasu or Bijuu Sage Art: Giant Rasengan Barrage that broke a Truth Seeker shield?


blk said:


> Also, didn't Hashi had a pretty powerful genjutsu that he used against hiruzen? That could cause significant problems for the team


What is that basic ass genjutsu gonna do against EMS or a perfect jinchuriki? Come on dude quit with the bias

Reactions: Like 1


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## JayK (Mar 30, 2019)

EMS Madara > EMS Sauce

100% Kurama wrapped in Susano'o > 50% BSM Naruto

And no, SM Naruto doesn't cover a fucking 50% power gap.


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## Zembie (Mar 30, 2019)

Hashirama pulls out a win due to SS.

When people argue for Kurama vs BSM Naruto its like they forget Naruto's arsenal, his clones and his feat of pushing 50% Kurama just with his SM. Not to mention people forgetting that its Naruto+SM+Kurama, not Kurama+SM. Whats stopping BSM Naruto from just spamming 1000 SM clones with Rasenshurikens? 

Kurama has half the chakra capacity not half the power. Wild Bijuu are not efficient with their chakra and thats where the claim that Jinchuriki > Bijuu is coming from. Naruto can probably replicate everything 100% Kurama can do with much less chakra at his disposal because he is actually efficient with the chakra he has.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MaruUchiha (Mar 30, 2019)

JayK said:


> 100% Kurama wrapped in Susano'o > 50% BSM Naruto


Can Madara's break a Truth Seeker shield?


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## MaruUchiha (Mar 30, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Hashirama pulls out a win due to SS.


That didn't even destroy the Susanoo armor or phase Kurama which is why Hashirama had to put Kurama to sleep. Besides, Bijuu Sage Art: Massive Rasengan Barrage or Bijuu Sage Art: Massive Rasenshuriken should wipe the floor with Wood Buddha


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## Zembie (Mar 30, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> That didn't even destroy the Susanoo armor or phase Kurama which is why Hashirama had to put Kurama to sleep. Besides, Bijuu Sage Art: Massive Rasengan Barrage or Bijuu Sage Art: Massive Rasenshuriken should wipe the floor with Wood Buddha


Nah, the SS is enormous and I don't think blondie and his bf have enough to put it down for good. The Susanoo armor on this Kurama is def weaker than Madara's and the SS itself dealt with the armor pretty easily. It won't be an easy fight since Hashirama has to enter SM but once he does its over.


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## MaruUchiha (Mar 30, 2019)

That's sad Hashirama is winning in votes when this duo was going toe to toe with Juubito who Hashirama cucked against.. This is why i say people scale Hashirama to God Tier. Nobody can ever give me shit for calling him overrated again


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## MaruUchiha (Mar 30, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Nah, the SS is enormous and I don't think blondie and his bf have enough to put it down for good.


So you think Wood Buddha can tank Bijuu Sage Art: Massive Rasenagn Barrage?


Zembie said:


> The Susanoo armor on this Kurama is def weaker than Madara's


Based on what?


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 30, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Hashirama pulls out a win due to SS.
> 
> When people argue for Kurama vs BSM Naruto its like they forget Naruto's arsenal, his clones and his feat of pushing 50% Kurama just with his SM. Not to mention people forgetting that its Naruto+SM+Kurama, not Kurama+SM. Whats stopping BSM Naruto from just spamming 1000 SM clones with Rasenshurikens?
> 
> Kurama has half the chakra capacity not half the power. Wild Bijuu are not efficient with their chakra and thats where the claim that Jinchuriki > Bijuu is coming from. Naruto can probably replicate everything 100% Kurama can do with much less chakra at his disposal because he is actually efficient with the chakra he has.



 To be fair, in the Databook entry for Iso Susano'o, it's stated that the user perfectly utilizes both the power of Susano'o and Kurama, so Kurama is being used at full power.


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## Zembie (Mar 30, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> To be fair, in the Databook entry for Iso Susano'o, it's stated that the user perfectly utilizes both the power of Susano'o and Kurama, so Kurama is being used at full power.


Yea, but thats the databook. Madara can't really control how much chakra Kurama expels, that would make no sense. And I am like 90% sure its just a fancy way to say that ISO Susanoo is a monstrous combo. The only one in the manga who we know can control a tailed beast perfectly is a jinchuriki.


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## Zembie (Mar 30, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> So you think Wood Buddha can tank Bijuu Sage Art: Massive Rasenagn Barrage?



Yup.



> Based on what?


Our little sausage just awakened his PS, makes sense that its not as strong as Madara's.
The only reason Hashirama wins is because he counters this combo perfectly, if you restrict SS they kick his ass.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 30, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Yea, but thats the databook. Madara can't really control how much chakra Kurama expels, that would make no sense. And I am like 90% sure its just a fancy way to say that ISO Susanoo is a monstrous combo. The only one in the manga who we know can control a tailed beast perfectly is a jinchuriki.



 The Databook is authorial intent, so you can't just discredit it simply because it goes against your opinion. Perfectly utilizes means he can control everything about Kurama including the amount of chakra used. Madara literally used a dozen of Bijuudama nigh instantaneously against Hashirama's SS.


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## MaruUchiha (Mar 30, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Yup.



Cool, no longer interested in discussing this with you


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## Zembie (Mar 30, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> The Databook is authorial intent, so you can't just discredit it simply because it goes against your opinion. Perfectly utilizes means he can control everything about Kurama including the amount of chakra used. Madara literally used a dozen of Bijuudama nigh instantaneously against Hashirama's SS.


I def can when its filled with inconsistencies. We know Madara can make Kurama use jutsu, but we don't know what "perfectly" is. Is it perfect like a jinchuriki? I will never agree with something that is only mentioned in the DB so meh.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 30, 2019)

Zembie said:


> I def can when its filled with inconsistencies. We know Madara can make Kurama use jutsu, but we don't know what "perfectly" is. Is it perfect like a jinchuriki? I will never agree with something that is only mentioned in the DB so meh.



 Uh no, you can only discredit it when it's literally inconsistent with the manga since the Databook is largely consistent. There's no such inconsistency present considering how quickly Madara is capable of using a dozen Bijuudama through Kurama while combining it with PS blades.


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## Zembie (Mar 30, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> Uh no, you can only discredit it when it's literally inconsistent with the manga since the Databook is largely consistent. There's no such inconsistency present considering how quickly Madara is capable of using a dozen Bijuudama through Kurama while combining it with PS blades.


Thats fine and dandy, we know genjutsu can control people. What I don't think it can do is make Bijuu more efficient than a jinchuriki.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 30, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Thats fine and dandy, we know genjutsu can control people. What I don't think it can do is make Bijuu more efficient than a jinchuriki.



 Author says the jutsu (Iso Susano'o) enables the user to use both Susano'o and Kurama perfectly, so unless you can prove that this statement is a contradiction, there's no reason not to believe it. We've literally never seen someone who isn't a Perfect Jin spam a dozen of Bijuudama nigh instantaneously. Never happened. Only ones who did were BM Naruto and the Bee and they're Perfect Jins.


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## Zembie (Mar 30, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> *Author says the jutsu (Iso Susano'o) enables the user to use both Susano'o and Kurama perfectly.*


Not a jutsu but kay.



> *So unless you can prove that this statement is a contradiction, there's no reason not to believe it. We've literally never seen someone who isn't a Perfect Jin spam a dozen of Bijuudama nigh instantaneously. Never happened. Only ones who did were BM Naruto and the Bee and they're Perfect Jins.*



We've literally never seen other jins doing BD alone, so that means that they can't do it? Are you trying to claim that Madara has better control over a bijuu than a jinchuriki? Madara just controls Kurama's movements and when to use jutsu, claiming that it is efficient as a Jin is something I will never agree with. Call it a concession or whatever, but I won't be agreeing with that point.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 30, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Not a jutsu but kay.



 Yes it is. Databook gives it its own separate entry and treats it as a separate technique. 



> *We've literally never seen other jins doing BD alone, so that means that they can't do it?* Are you trying to claim that Madara has better control over a bijuu than a jinchuriki? Madara just controls Kurama's movements and when to use jutsu, claiming that it is efficient as a Jin is something I will never agree with. Call it a concession or whatever, but I won't be agreeing with that point.



 For the bold, yes because it's entirely contingent upon their level of control. Roshi for instance couldn't even go V2, so he likely couldn't even use a Bijuudama to begin with. We've literally only seen Perfect Jinchuuriki perform Bijuudama spam, so why would we extend that level of control to other Jinchuuriki (other than Yagura) when they don't have the same level of control over their Bijuu like Naruto and Bee did. Fact is, unless you can somehow prove that Jinchuuriki other than Bee, Yagura, and Naruto can use Bijuudama spam or exhibit even greater control than that, then there's literally no reason to believe that the Databook is wrong here. Madara has the feats to back it up.


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## Zembie (Mar 30, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> For the bold, yes because it's entirely contingent upon their level of control. Roshi for instance couldn't even go V2, so he likely couldn't even use a Bijuudama to begin with. We've literally only seen Perfect Jinchuuriki perform Bijuudama spam, so why would we extend that level of control to other Jinchuuriki (other than Yagura) when they don't have the same level of control over their Bijuu like Naruto and Bee did. Fact is, unless you can somehow prove that Jinchuuriki other than Bee, Yagura, and Naruto can use Bijuudama spam or exhibit even greater control than that, then there's literally no reason to believe that the Databook is wrong here. Madara has the feats to back it up.


I was talking about the tailed beasts themselves, no idea why I wrote jins (about the Bijuudama argument). Also the BD spam argument can be turned around by saying that only Bijuu which have a lot of chakra can use a BD spam (Kurama and Gyuki). *Since 8 tails has more chakra than the others, and the 9 tails even more, I can go on to claim that only Gyuki and Kurama can use Renzoku Bijuudama and I would be right.* 

I don't think Yagura has ever used a bijuudama spam? Maybe you are talking about the anime?

And I don't really need to prove that Jins have better control, since Naruto with his Bijuu could make this: 

Madara has never shown this kind of chakra transformation with his ISO.


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## blk (Mar 30, 2019)

@MaruUchiha

I'm no founder wanker nor fan of a>b>c logic (my main argument is all about comparing their abilities) , as you have probably seen by my other posts. Many characters can beat the founders with the right conditions. 
The opposite is also true and imo this is one such case.

Your main contention is with how Hashi can survive to the giant bijuu rasengan (the one he used with Minato I assume?) , which is quite clear to me: not letting Naruto get close. 
I'm not sure how he can close distance when Hashirama can throw a forest and more if necessary (gigantic wooden hands coming from underneath for example) , at him instantly, with soporific pollen. 
Naruto needs something with big AoE (bijuudama), in order to counter mokuton spam of that scale. 

The gates can also stop Naruto (both in his bijuu and human form). If the latter has the time to active bijuu and sage mode, Hashi will have the time to enter his own SM. 
And with SM all his techs will be much more powerful, which includes the wooden shield. 

The wooden shield tanked, with apparently no scratch (so we don't know the limits of its durability), a bijuudama exploding in its vicinity, an SM wooden shield will surely tank much much more. Logically it should be able to tank a senjutsu powered bijuudama with the same ease. 
And if a giant rasengan has less power than a bijuudama, a giant sage rasengan should have less power than a sage bijuudama. 

Therefore, an SM powered wooden shield should tank a SM powered giant rasengan and more. 
Also Hashi could put up a few more if needed. It doesn't seem a particularly big and taxing technique. 

Given how hard it would be for the duo to get close and how Hashi (with wooden shield) can tank giant rasengans, the only realistic option are bijuudama. 
Which as I've already wrote, can be countered in a number of ways and thus are not very effective against Hashi. 

Talking about SS, its arms are just too big (bigger than 100% Kurama) and too many, they would out-range and overwhelm an hypothetical bijuu sage mode giant rasengan. 

Regarding Amaterasu, Hashi is a sensor so he can perceive the pressure build-up like Nagato did. Then he can simply blocks LoS with wood.

You are correct about Hashi's genjutsu not being useful tho.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 30, 2019)

Zembie said:


> I was talking about the tailed beasts themselves, no idea why I wrote jins (about the Bijuudama argument). Also the BD spam argument can be turned around by saying that only Bijuu which have a lot of chakra can use a BD spam (Kurama and Gyuki). *Since 8 tails has more chakra than the others, and the 9 tails even more, I can go on to claim that only Gyuki and Kurama can use Renzoku Bijuudama and I would be right.*
> 
> I don't think Yagura has ever used a bijuudama spam? Maybe you are talking about the anime?



 Well, in that case, yes the Bijuu can use the Bijuudama. The Hachibi used one during his battle with A3 and Kurama used one against SM Naruto. If you want to claim that it's because Kurama and Hachibi have more chakra, then that would be false as the Bijuu managed to use a Bijuudama under Obito's control and he explicitly struggled controlling the Bijuu. That said, the bold would be baseless. The fact that BM Naruto and Bee could both use continuous Bijuudama despite the disparity in their chakra levels being massive suggests that chakra isn't the reason here. The only thing that remains constant is their control over the Bijuu. Kurama and Hachibi have never used that jutsu without Naruto and Bee's support as well.

 Aside from that, it'd be baseless conjecture. Meanwhile, I have a Databook entry that explicitly states Madara has complete control over Kurama and have feats that showcase Madara doing something that only Perfect Jin have been capable of. The whole argument behind that feat only being accomplished because of chakra is baseless, not to mention that the Hachibi and Kurama have never used continuous Bijuudama without the support of Naruto and Bee.



> And I don't really need to prove that Jins have better control, since Naruto with his Bijuu could make this:
> 
> Madara has never shown this kind of chakra transformation with his ISO.



 Why would he need to though? I don't recall Bee ever showcasing that level of control either and he's a Perfect Jin.


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## Zembie (Mar 30, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> Well, in that case, yes the Bijuu can use the Bijuudama. The Hachibi used one during his battle with A3 and Kurama used one against SM Naruto. If you want to claim that it's because Kurama and Hachibi have more chakra, then that would be false as the Bijuu managed to use a Bijuudama under Obito's control and he explicitly struggled controlling the Bijuu. That said, the bold would be baseless. The fact that BM Naruto and Bee could both use continuous Bijuudama despite the disparity in their chakra levels being massive suggests that chakra isn't the reason here. The only thing that remains constant is their control over the Bijuu. Kurama and Hachibi have never used that jutsu without Naruto and Bee's support as well.


And the bijuu have never used a bijuudama unless together(except for Bee and Kurama) which supports my point in chakra disparity between the bijuu (I am not saying that they can't use a bijuudama, but you see where I am coming from). Nothing suggests that you need to have perfect control over a bijuu to use the bijuudama barrage except headcanon. Nothing also suggests that Gyuki doesn't have enough chakra to use BD spam, too.




> Aside from that, it'd be baseless conjecture. Meanwhile, I have a Databook entry that explicitly states Madara has complete control over Kurama and have feats that showcase Madara doing something that only Perfect Jin have been capable of. The whole argument behind that feat only being accomplished because of chakra is baseless, not to mention that the Hachibi and Kurama have never used continuous Bijuudama without the support of Naruto and Bee.



We don't know in what context it means perfect control, so its baseless to base it off just this DB page, nor do we know if the translation is right. Madara just made Kurama do something that he can always do, nothing suggests that you need to have perfect control to use BD barrage. Also see my point about all other bijuu never using BD when alone.




> Why would he need to though? I don't recall Bee ever showcasing that level of control either and he's a Perfect Jin.


Are you saying that if Madara could make a rasengan, that he would be able to make a rasengan with a bijuu? Bee was shown using his tentacles as substitution which to me shows that he has better control than Madara.

Madara having control anywhere near jinchuriki level is headcanon at best only supported by the DB which is not reliable. Continuing this discussion is pointless.


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## MaruUchiha (Mar 30, 2019)

blk said:


> Your main contention is with how Hashi can survive to the giant bijuu rasengan (the one he used with Minato I assume?)


No I'm talking about the ones that broke thru a Truth Seeker shield


blk said:


> which is quite clear to me: not letting Naruto get close.


You're making that sound alot easier than it would be.. Not even Juubito could keep Naruto from getting close. How would someone far weaker pull it off?


blk said:


> I'm not sure how he can close distance when Hashirama can throw a forest


Pretty sure a Sage Mode chakra roar would neg that pretty easy.. Base Naruto already destroyed this with Giant Rasengan Barrage Line so Bijuu Sage Art: Giant Rasengan Barrage Line should have no trouble


blk said:


> (gigantic wooden hands coming from underneath for example)


Which can't do shit against Bijuu Sage Mode Naruto's durability or strength and would also be burned away by Sasuke's Inferno Style


blk said:


> soporific pollen


Which would be ineffective in their Kurama and Susanoo avatars. Perfect Susanoo already negged Flower World, pollen is not doing shit here.


blk said:


> The gates can also stop Naruto (both in his bijuu and human form)


Not when Bijuu Sage Mode Naruto has danger sense and reflexes fast enough to react to Juubito. Even Sasuke might be able to burn them down emitting Inferno Style from his Susanoo


blk said:


> And with SM all his techs will be much more powerful, which includes the wooden shield.
> 
> The wooden shield tanked, with apparently no scratch (so we don't know the limits of its durability), a bijuudama exploding in its vicinity, an SM wooden shield will surely tank much much more. Logically it should be able to tank a senjutsu powered bijuudama with the same ease.
> 
> Therefore, an SM powered wooden shield should tank a SM powered giant rasengan and more.


For the 100th time Bijuu Sage Mode Naruto broke a Truth Seeker shield.. Do you think wooden shield > Truth Seeker shield?


blk said:


> Given how hard it would be for the duo to get close and how Hashi


Wouldn't be hard at all dude they were able to close in on someone who Hashirama stated himself is stronger than him


blk said:


> (with wooden shield) can tank giant rasengans


Truth Seeker shield was broken by Giant Rasengans.. Claiming Hashirama's wood shield can tank them when Truth Seeker shield couldn't you're not only scaling him to God Tier but contradicting what he said himself about Juubito being stronger


blk said:


> Talking about SS, its arms are just too big (bigger than 100% Kurama) and too many, they would out-range and overwhelm an hypothetical bijuu sage mode giant rasengan


Cool, how about Bijuu Sage Art: Massive Rasengan Barrage?


blk said:


> Regarding Amaterasu, Hashi is a sensor so he can perceive the pressure build-up like Nagato did. Then he can simply blocks LoS with wood.


Hashirama has no knowledge of Amaterasu.. He might sense chakra buildup in the eye but how would he know to block?


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## sabre320 (Mar 31, 2019)

Sasuke is capable of extending his sussanos blade to much larger sizes and naruto can charge massive senpo flashdamas, so charged senpo flash sworddamas win the match for the team. Also bsm naruto is much faster then the vote kyuubi zord and can keep his distance while nuking. In before standard bijudama from the kyuubi are superior to flashdamas .....even though it literally destroyed one mountain same as any other...

Reactions: Like 1


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## JJ Baloney (Mar 31, 2019)

I actually think Naruto and Sasuke can win.

Distance is enough for Hashi to go SM and use the 1000 hands. Pretty sure the NaruSasu duo can tank it tho.

Sasuke sets Hashi on fire.

Reactions: Like 1


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## PrimeRichard (Apr 3, 2019)

Perfect jin BSM naruto>>> mindless kyuubi. People say hashirama already defeated  madara kurama and PS combo but they fail to understand that madara entire arsenal is Mostly susanoo spam with  kyuubi TBB in that battle. He lack jutsu variety unlike naruto.
BSM naruto has his own arsenal like *clones, FRS, rasengans, TBB, chakra arms and kurama battle Intelligent (genjutsu break, chakra sharing, negative sensing) on top of Sage mode *which madara lack*.*This should tell people that BSM naruto >>> madara. Naruto can give sasuke *chakra cloak* boosting his physical stats and their majestic attire should be stronger than hashirama budha with their own jutsu backing their kurama and susanoo combo
Hashirama budha isn't doing anything to them as they survived juubito slam who >>> hashirama in DC. Even kcm naruto cloak tank juubi cataclysm and survived which is >>> hashirama in DC
Add to the fact that hashirama will be also be dealing with amaterasu spam, enton/susanoo arrow and v4 slashes.
Team wins *midd diff.*


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## Orochibuto (Apr 3, 2019)

What the fuck is this shit? EMS Sasuke + BSM Naruto defeated a *JUUBI JINCHUURIKI*, the same guy that was explicitly stated by Hashirama to be stronger than him, in a way weaker form than the one NaruSuke defeated.

This is not a fight, this is a rape of epic proportion. Fuck, I hadn't seen a rape like this since that guy posted the Metal Mario vs Hinata thread in the OBD.


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## Orochibuto (Apr 3, 2019)

@SuperSaiyaMan12 bro come and look at this shit.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 3, 2019)

Honestly, Naruto alone with BSM should be able to defeat SM Hashirama. Far stronger, faster, and more durable, with firepower comparable if not greater to Top Transformed Buddha plus many more options. And like @Orochibuto said, Naruto and Sasuke were able to defeat Juubi Jin Obito, something SM Hashirama couldn't hope to do.


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## Turrin (Apr 3, 2019)

This thread just shows how bad the Naruto wank or Hashirama downplay is when Hashirama can beat a ISO Susanoo comprised of a stronger P-Susanoo and both halves of Kurama but somehow looses to one half and a weaker Susanoo ISO


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## Zembie (Apr 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> This thread just shows how bad the Naruto wank or Hashirama downplay is when Hashirama can beat a ISO Susanoo comprised of a stronger P-Susanoo and both halves of Kurama but somehow looses to one half and a weaker Susanoo ISO


I agree with you about the Hashirama downplay, but then I remember you said that he is RSM Naruto tier and I forget everything.


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 3, 2019)

Zembie said:


> I agree with you about the Hashirama downplay, but then I remember you said that he is RSM Naruto tier and I forget everything.


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## Turrin (Apr 3, 2019)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Honestly, Naruto alone with BSM should be able to defeat SM Hashirama. Far stronger, faster, and more durable, with firepower comparable if not greater to Top Transformed Buddha plus many more options. And like @Orochibuto said, Naruto and Sasuke were able to defeat Juubi Jin Obito, something SM Hashirama couldn't hope to do.


Hashirama defeated an ISO with factually more power then Sasuke and Narutos.


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## Turrin (Apr 3, 2019)

Zembie said:


> I agree with you about the Hashirama downplay, but then I remember you said that he is RSM Naruto tier and I forget everything.


And I’m still waiting for a compelling argument otherwise


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## JJ Baloney (Apr 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> And I’m still waiting for a compelling argument otherwise


Can he beat him or anyone else in that tier?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Hashirama defeated an ISO with factually more power then Sasuke and Narutos.


Hashirama never defeated anyone with more power than Naruto and Sasuke were wielding at that time. You honestly believe he would defeat Juubi Jin Obito? How far have you fallen Turrin?

Not only that, you think SM Hashirama is anywhere NEAR as powerful as RSM Naruto? I mean fucking seriously? Despite the manga making it clear, FLAT OUT, that Naruto surpassed ALL HOKAGES when he got that power? WHAT. THE. FUCK. HAPPENED. TO YOU. WHILE I WAS GONE?


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## Zembie (Apr 3, 2019)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How far have you fallen Turrin?


A lot.


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## blk (Apr 3, 2019)

One side seems to think that Hashirama loses because "Naruto and Sasuke defeated Juubito", which is a complete misconception of the fight, since they never _killed_ a full power Juubito and had significant help from the Shinobu alliance. 

But the other argument about Hashi beating a stronger ISO (what does that stands for?) Susanoo, is also weak imo.

A direct comparison between their abilities is surely better than this indirect-comparison arguments. Which in my opinion shows that the duo's arsenal is entirely countered, while they can't deal as easily with SM Mokuton spam.


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## Orochibuto (Apr 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> This thread just shows how bad the Naruto wank or Hashirama downplay is when Hashirama can beat a ISO Susanoo comprised of a stronger P-Susanoo and both halves of Kurama but somehow looses to one half and a weaker Susanoo ISO



First of all, it is a mistake to assume (in chakra quantity) that the Kurama Naruto has is only 50% of the one Hashirama has, it isn't. Bijuus can regenerate, even when split. Naruto's Kurama is as strong as the one Minato fought, it is just made of 100% Yang rather than 50% Yin and 50% Yang.

Secondly, even if it wasn't the case, the fact remain that Perfect Jinchuurikis > Bijuus, and the difference is not small, it is very, very, *VERY* big.

And finally this Perfect Jinchuuriki is FURTHER BOOSTED by Sage Mode, the boost given by Sage Mode is insane.

Indeed, the combination of these factors is enough to fight evenly with a *Juubi Jinchuuriki*, said Jinchuuriki was called by Hashirama as stronger than him, in a weaker form than the one defeated by Naruto and Sasuke and proceeded to demonstrate it by ripping Hashirama and Tobirama in half, literally.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> This thread just shows how bad the Naruto wank or Hashirama downplay is when Hashirama can beat a ISO Susanoo comprised of a stronger P-Susanoo and both halves of Kurama but somehow looses to one half and a weaker Susanoo ISO


Madara's control over Kurama is inferior to Naruto's partnership with Kurama. Naruto can effortlessly use Kurama's strongest techniques, power them up to the point where a single Bijudama can equal a combined Bijudama from Five Biju, on top of stacking everything up with Sage Mode. You HONESTLY believe Hashirama would be able to replicate Naruto's performance against Jubi Jin Obito?

Oh wait, you've gone so far off the deep end you claim Hashirama can defeat RSM Naruto despite canon _*flatly saying*_ Naruto had surpassed all the Hokage.


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## Orochibuto (Apr 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Hashirama defeated an ISO with factually more power then Sasuke and Narutos.



It doesn't matter, because said power couldn't be used as effectively, even if I were to concede that it had less power. Hashirama fought an ISO amped by a mindraped Kurama and that's it.

This ISO has Perfect Jinchuuriki Kurama boosted by Sage Mode. Madara's ISO had nothing but a mindraped Kurama.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 3, 2019)

Orochibuto said:


> It doesn't matter, because said power couldn't be used as effectively, even if I were to concede that it had less power. Hashirama fought an ISO amped by a mindraped Kurama and that's it.
> 
> This ISO has Perfect Jinchuuriki Kurama boosted by Sage Mode. Madara's ISO had nothing but a mindraped Kurama.


Hell, Madara was basically making Kurama do what he THOUGHT Kurama could do, not what he was truly capable of. Naruto in Madara's position probably would have blown away the Shinsensenju with a Bijudama the same size as it since he knows Kurama has that power within him.


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## blk (Apr 3, 2019)

The charging process of a very big bijuudama can be interrupted by a mokuton attack from underneath Naruto. Or deflected at worst.
It could also argued that multiple SM wooden shields could tank that, since a single non-SM shield tanked a bijuudama without showing any damage. But maybe that's a stretch.

Standard bijuudamas are ineffective (tanked by wooden shield, redirected, deflected).

Not much left of their arsenal that can threaten Hashirama.


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## Orochibuto (Apr 3, 2019)

blk said:


> The charging process of a very big bijuudama can be interrupted by a mokuton attack from underneath Naruto. Or deflected at worst.
> It could also argued that multiple SM wooden shields could tank that, since a single non-SM shield tanked a bijuudama without showing any damage. But maybe that's a stretch.
> 
> Standard bijuudamas are ineffective (tanked by wooden shield, redirected, deflected).
> ...



Except that this Kurama is futher boosted by freaking Sage Mode. There is no way he would be able to resist a maxed out Sage Bijuu Bomb. And this is without even taking Sasuke in count, add Susanoo armor and its overkill.

Seriously, this combination can fight a Juubi Jinchuuriki evenly. Can Hashirama fight a Juubi Jinchuurki evenly? Not at all, he in fact got raped by one..


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## blk (Apr 3, 2019)

@Orochibuto

Non-SM wooden shield tanked a bijuudama without a scratch. Logically a SM powersd wooden shield should tank a SM powered bijuudama without a scratch.
Since a standard bijuudama is nothing to it, could be argued that multiple wooden shields could survive to a charged bijuudama.

But that's not even the main point. Hashi can easily stop the charging process (mokuton from underneath, gates from above) or deflect a maxed out bijuudama (if I remember correctly he was even planning to do so when Juubito prepared four huge juubidamas, which forced the latter to set up a barrier).


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## Orochibuto (Apr 3, 2019)

blk said:


> @Orochibuto
> 
> Non-SM wooden shield tanked a bijuudama without a scratch. Logically a SM powersd wooden shield should tank a SM powered bijuudama without a scratch.
> Since a standard bijuudama is nothing to it, could be argued that multiple wooden shields could survive to a charged bijuudama.
> ...



BSM is so fast it can just run away, the Bijuu Damas are so huge that they can simply be exploded in the general distance, general distance being KILOMETERS from ground zero. BSM Susanoo can just run away, and then use Naruto's INSANE sensing abilities to simply spam nukes in Hashirama's general location. He can simply carpet bomb Hashirama and he has no defense against that.

Not that it matters, as the physical stats of Susanoo + BSM are so insane that Hashirama simply gets pasted.


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## blk (Apr 4, 2019)

@Orochibuto
Not sure why BSM is any faster than Madara's construct. It's not like Naruto can use shushin with it. And did he ever show the ability to charge a big bijuudama while going around? Pretty sure he didn't.
He needs to stay still to make the big ones, which means gates, wooden hands, etc get in the way. 
And if a big bijuudama is deflected, depending on where it explodes, much less of its power will reach Hashi (again he had Juubito set up a barrier). 

Random standard bijuudamas can't even scratch wooden shield and can be literally thrown back by wooden hands. Carpet bombing doesn't seem very effective.
Moreover I'm pretty sure Hashi can outlast BSM (didn't it have a time limit?), so can they afford to stay far away from him? 
No reason why Hashi couldn't keep a relatively close distance. 

But at close-mid range they have to confront SS (and not only) to which they don't have an answer (no time to charge big attacks when hundreds of giant punches are coming). And again, continuous bijuudamas will be taken by the wooden hands (of SS in this case). There is a reason Madara had to add PS sword to them.

@MaruUchiha 
was arguing for massive Rasengan barrage, but BSM Naruto can't make many clones of his chakra construct (possibly 2/3 at that point of the story, they clearly require a ton of chakra), so the 2 or 3 giant Rasengans would be overwhelmed.


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## Turrin (Apr 4, 2019)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Hashirama never defeated anyone with more power than Naruto and Sasuke were wielding at that time. You honestly believe he would defeat Juubi Jin Obito? How far have you fallen Turrin?
> 
> Not only that, you think SM Hashirama is anywhere NEAR as powerful as RSM Naruto? I mean fucking seriously? Despite the manga making it clear, FLAT OUT, that Naruto surpassed ALL HOKAGES when he got that power? WHAT. THE. FUCK. HAPPENED. TO YOU. WHILE I WAS GONE?


Please consider the following

1. Edo Hashirama is weaker then Living Hashirama

2. Edo-Hashirama said that Juubito is stronger then him, but never tells us by how much

3. After this Juubito releases the God Tree becoming weaker 

4.  Sasuke and Naruto then form their ISO out of 50% Kurama + SM and Sasukes P-Susanoo which is about the size of 50% Kurama

5. This ISO then beats weakened Juubito (missing the tree) in a direct clash with help from the rookies

6. Hashirama at VOTE beats Madara ISO which is made up of 100% Kyuubi and a P-Susanoo that is the size of 100% Kyuubi 

7. We can estimate this ISO is much stronger then Sasuke/Narutos because 100% Kyuubi > 50% Kyuubi, and Madara P-Susanoo is likely comparable to 100% Kyuubi while Sasuken is likely comparable only to 50% Kyuubi based on size. 

The only difference is SM power added but SM isn’t enough to make up the difference of 50% Kyuubi because as we saw BM which is the power of 50% Kyuubi is far greater then even WA SMs power. 

8. Since Hashirama beat a stronger ISO then the one that beat weakened Juubito, he should also be able to beat weakened Juubito. How Hashirama stacks up against Juubito at full power we don’t know for certain but it’s probably a close fight, since his power is greater then weakened Juubito by a fair amount. Also supporting this Madara even weakened as an Edo was extremely confident he could beat Juubito by stealing Even a weekend Edo Hashirama Senjutsu who had already expends a great deal of said Senjutsu figjting Madara

9. So what we end up with is that Juubito might not even be superior to Living Hashirama, but if he is it’s definitely not a tier gap.

——-

As far as RSM Naruto we can discuss that after we finish this discussion

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Apr 4, 2019)

Orochibuto said:


> It doesn't matter, because said power couldn't be used as effectively, even if I were to concede that it had less power. Hashirama fought an ISO amped by a mindraped Kurama and that's it.
> 
> This ISO has Perfect Jinchuuriki Kurama boosted by Sage Mode. Madara's ISO had nothing but a mindraped Kurama.


Madara is a more experience and intelligent fighter then Naruto so Madara controlling Kyuubi is better then Naruto controlling that power. We even see Madara use a more crafty combo of sticking the Susanoo sword into the Kyuubis TBB while Naruto just use a straight forward strike of from the Kyuubi/Susanoo sword

So mind tapes made zero difference and the boost of SM is less then the boost from the missing half of Kurama by far


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## Zembie (Apr 4, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Edo Hashirama is weaker then Living Hashirama
> 
> Edo-Hashirama said that Juubito is stronger then him, but never tells us by how much
> 
> ...



Thanks, your posts never make me fail to vomit.


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## Turrin (Apr 4, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Thanks, your posts never make me fail to vomit.


And your posts never fail to have a lack of argument


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## Zembie (Apr 4, 2019)

Turrin said:


> And your posts never fail to have a lack of argument


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## Turrin (Apr 4, 2019)

Zembie said:


>


Checks if there’s an argument, is not surprised their isn’t one


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## Zembie (Apr 4, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Checks if there’s an argument, is not surprised their isn’t one


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## Sufex (Apr 4, 2019)

I now agree that individually Hashi or even madara are still superior to their counterparts; but teaming up they're too much for even hashi. Individually Naruto is not that much weaker than Hashi (his feats in Kyubi mode alone, never mind combined with sage mode make this obvious). I do agree he gets soft countered by wood style but he has EMS sauce with him. While I don’t know if his PS is equal to mads it shouldn’t be that far off at this point. I have no doubt he can hold his own here.

The PS BSM susanoo overcomes the natural weakness naruto has to wood style and sage mode + Perfect jin (which are always stated to be stronger than the raw bijus). they’re essentially an amped version of madaras combo which can now make clones, has acess tyo sage jutsu, fire off giant FRS, has sauces enton available as well. Not to mention all the ways these jutsus combine as Naruto and Sasuke showed great team work in the juubito fight. Duo take this IMO but its still not an easy fight.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 4, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Please consider the following
> 
> 1. Edo Hashirama is weaker then Living Hashirama


Not that much weaker than he was in life, the gap is negligible.


> 2. Edo-Hashirama said that Juubito is stronger then him, but never tells us by how much


We see the gap by Juubito in his first form RIPPING Edo Hashirama apart before Hashirama can react.


> 3. After this Juubito releases the God Tree becoming weaker


 No proof of that _at all_ and you know it. You're just making up crap since you are losing an argument.


> 4.  Sasuke and Naruto then form their ISO out of 50% Kurama + SM and Sasukes P-Susanoo which is about the size of 50% Kurama


Doesn't matter, Kurama never got weaker now did he? The manga never said Yang Kurama was weaker than the one from VOTE. And Naruto uses Kurama's power far more effectively than Madara did.


> 5. This ISO then beats weakened Juubito (missing the tree) in a direct clash with help from the rookies


The reason why Naruto and Sasuke beat Juubito was because he experienced an identity crisis in the middle of the fight and began to doubt himself.


> 6. Hashirama at VOTE beats Madara ISO which is made up of 100% Kyuubi and a P-Susanoo that is the size of 100% Kyuubi


And despite Madara having a '100% Kurama', he used him far less effectively due to thinking Kurama is nothing but a mindless beast.


> 7. We can estimate this ISO is much stronger then Sasuke/Narutos because 100% Kyuubi > 50% Kyuubi, and Madara P-Susanoo is likely comparable to 100% Kyuubi while Sasuken is likely comparable only to 50% Kyuubi based on size.
> 
> The only difference is SM power added but SM isn’t enough to make up the difference of 50% Kyuubi because as we saw BM which is the power of 50% Kyuubi is far greater then even WA SMs power.


No, Madara's ISO is much weaker than Naruto and Sasuke's due to the simple fact that Madara viewed Kurama as nothing more than a mindless beast. He NEVER brought out Kurama's full power nor will never be able to since he hadn't had a bond with him. Naruto could and we see why: he could create a 'super Bijudama' equal to that of five Biju in a second while Madara had Kurama lobbing around standard Bijudama since that's all he thought Kurama could do.


> 8. Since Hashirama beat a stronger ISO then the one that beat weakened Juubito, he should also be able to beat weakened Juubito. How Hashirama stacks up against Juubito at full power we don’t know for certain but it’s probably a close fight, since his power is greater then weakened Juubito by a fair amount. Also supporting this Madara even weakened as an Edo was extremely confident he could beat Juubito by stealing Even a weekend Edo Hashirama Senjutsu who had already expends a great deal of said Senjutsu figjting Madara


First off, Juubito was never weakened. Stop injecting fanfiction into these arguments. Secondly Hashirama has no chance, living or dead against Juubito, he already admitted inferiority and that wouldn't change if Hashirama was alive. Thirdly, Madara was STRONGER as an Edo Tensei than he was in his Prime (Rinnegan + Wood Release + EMS), and he sandbagged against Edo Hashirama since his goal was to steal Hashirama's Sage Mode.


> 9. So what we end up with is that Juubito might not even be superior to Living Hashirama, but if he is it’s definitely not a tier gap.


It is. Hashirama is Top TIer, Juubito is God Tier. Naruto and Sasuke could hold their own and defeat Juubito together, something Hashirama alone cannot do. Your fanboyism has gotten REALLY bad and I can see why posters here think you're a joke now.



> As far as RSM Naruto we can discuss that after we finish this discussion


There IS no discussion. RSM Naruto surpassed _ALL the Hokage_ at Age 16. He could curbstomp Juubi Jin Madara without powering up. He could hold his own against Kaguya. He could defeat Toneri who could cut the moon in half and move it. He could manhandle fused Momoshiki in hand to hand and nearly defeat him with Sasuke's help.

Hashirama. Is. NOT. ON. THAT. LEVEL. OF. POWER.

For fuck's sake you've become so much worse Turrin.[/quote]


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 4, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Madara is a more experience and intelligent fighter then Naruto so Madara controlling Kyuubi is better then Naruto controlling that power. We even see Madara use a more crafty combo of sticking the Susanoo sword into the Kyuubis TBB while Naruto just use a straight forward strike of from the Kyuubi/Susanoo sword
> 
> So mind tapes made zero difference and the boost of SM is less then the boost from the missing half of Kurama by far


Madara may be 'more intelligent' than Naruto is, but it doesn't change the fact he thought Kurama nothing more than a mindless pawn. He never brought out Kurama's full power nor did he even combine his jutsus and power with Kurama like Naruto did. And guess what, Yang Kurama never was said to have gotten weaker, so you can stop with that argument. Madara flat out could never bring out a Biju's, much less Kurama's, full power since he saw them as his pets and that they were mindless. He controlled them the same way Obito controlled HIS Biju, poorly and only doing what he thought said Biju could do.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 4, 2019)

@Turrin

 I disagree, but I do agree that it's sad to see many unwilling to accept another one's argument and resort to jabs (other than SaiyaMan) instead of trying to provide a compelling argument. Narutoforums has really fallen so low from what it once was...

 Anywho, Hashirama isn't even on RSM Naruto's tier. Even if you could argue that Hashirama could compete with Juubito, Juubidara was explicitly stated to be stronger than Juubito prior to absorbing the Shinju and boasts even greater power with the Rinnegan. RSM Naruto without Bijuu Mode managed to overwhelm Juubidara in terms of speed, casually evaded Juubidara's Limbo, and literally crippled him with a Yoton RasenShuriken that literally annihilated the Shinju which exceeds anything Hashirama is literally capable of. 

In Bijuu Mode, he managed to Two-Eyed Juubidara's Chibaku Tensei with 6 Bijuudama FRS which have even more power than the Yoton RasenShuriken Naruto threw earlier and the AoE that exceeds Madara's CT which eclipses the size of mountains and he managed to react to Kaguya's blindside attacks, managed to fight her on his own while Sasuke was trapped in another dimension, blatantly outsped her, and managed to overpower her with 7 Bijuu FRS which is stated to be his strongest FRS according to the Databook outside of what he can do with his VoTE2 Ashura Avatar.

 Naruto clearly outclasses Hashirama by a significant margin in terms of speed and destructive power. The fact that he can compete with Madara and Kaguya who are much stronger than Juubito and displayed firepower that could overwhelm either of them or match them suggests that he's on an entirely different tier.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zembie (Apr 4, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> @Turrin
> 
> I disagree, but I do agree that it's sad to see many unwilling to accept another one's argument and resort to jabs (other than SaiyaMan) instead of trying to provide a compelling argument. Narutoforums has really fallen so low from what it once was...
> 
> ...


I used the same manga panels and he still refused to accept it, you're wasting your time.


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## Hi no Ishi (Apr 4, 2019)

Hashirama has the worst day of his life since his boo thang broke up with him because their fathers had inappropriate contact with each other's siblings.

Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi and make a forest fire out of Flower Tree World or Nativity of a World of Trees, one the has flames controlled by Sasuke.

The Golem got trashed by a palm sized TBB going off so Hashirama is going to shart a little when he sees a Senjutsu Flash TBB come his way.

Wood Dragon catches a basic TBB and dies or gets Shunshined to pieces 

Shape Changing avatars slide out of Gates trying to pin them or get wrecked by the level of jutsu that  the  that destroyed the Gates it he first place 

They both also have speed far beyond anything Hashirama has shown or kept up with as they were able to both track and tag a Jubito who was actually trying to murder them. 
Hashirama can gain ground on a Tailed Beast Ball though momentarily so it's not like he is getting blitzed by their attacks though, he won be easily able to keep up with them either. Especially at different angles like the way they attacked Jubito

He will NEED SS to even have a chance.

While the thing is huge, probably close to the Jubi in size as both have Kurama sized hands, their  Release  took up a significant portion of the Jubi's body and can have the wooden structure ablaze in moments. While Susano'o  and TBB can destroy even more hands, especially when augmented by  and Senjutsu respectively. And Giant Rasengan that can break through Shields made of TSB turn anything that gets close to sawdust.
Hashirama is going to be standing atop his burning statue looking for air in all the smoke and punching for all he is worth when Kirin drops down with hill and Susano'o busting force and terrible speed.
If he survived by sacrificing arms or retreating to Hotei somehow he still has to deal with Naruto and Sasuke  him the litteral bird and slicing through his arms on the way to continue bringing him hellfire face to face.

It would be high diff but they win. They have all the tools to deal with his arsenal and more.


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## SammySam (Apr 4, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> Location: VOTE
> Knowledge: Manga
> Distance: 100M
> Restrictions: None
> ...



Hashirama wins without Sage Mode.

He's a blatant counter to Naruto, Kurama goes night-night
His golem beats the hell out of Sasuke.

Founders>>>>Any version of Naruto or Sasuke combined pre-rikudo


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## Orochibuto (Apr 4, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Please consider the following
> 
> 1. Edo Hashirama is weaker then Living Hashirama



We know FOR A FACT that Living Hashirama is less than 50% stronger than Edo Hashirama (and this is lowballing him extremely) as we were told Oro's edos revive them near their full power.



Turrin said:


> 2. Edo-Hashirama said that Juubito is stronger then him, but never tells us by how much



By as much as him getting ripped up by Juubito when he wasnt even focusing on him (he ripped Tobirama as well). A less than 50% increase is not going to make up for that shit, even if it did, you forger Obito had his own very substantial increase by gaining control after that.

So it isnt nearly enough to make up the difference and put him in fighting controlled Juubito level.



Turrin said:


> 3. After this Juubito releases the God Tree becoming weaker



He was never stated to have become weaker, if you say that because Madara powered up by absorbing it, you ignore the fact that this Shinju had absorbed a fuckload of chakra from everyone around, enough to wake up Kaguya.



Turrin said:


> 4.  Sasuke and Naruto then form their ISO out of 50% Kurama + SM and Sasukes P-Susanoo which is about the size of 50% Kurama



It is never stated this Kurama is any weaker than the original one. Bijuus regenerate chakra, as shown when Naruto PERMANENTLY ripped chakra from Kurama making him become skeletal and then Kurama looking fine again.



Turrin said:


> 6. Hashirama at VOTE beats Madara ISO which is made up of 100% Kyuubi and a P-Susanoo that is the size of 100% Kyuubi.



So let me get this straight, you think VOTE Madara is stronger than Juubito? 



Turrin said:


> 7. We can estimate this ISO is much stronger then Sasuke/Narutos because 100% Kyuubi > 50% Kyuubi, and Madara P-Susanoo is likely comparable to 100% Kyuubi while Sasuken is likely comparable only to 50% Kyuubi based on size.



Except that this Madara wasnt a Jinchuuriki, and it is a canon fact that, Jinchuuriki > Bijuu. And not by a small margin, but by A LOT. Just look how Juubi went from being containable by the alliance to raping everyone by becoming a Jinchuuriki, and this was in its uncontrolled mode.

Jinchuuriki > Bijuu. Perfect Jinchuuriki > Jinchuuriki.

Add SM to this and it is very clear this Kurama is way superior to the one Madara had even if you buy the shit about him being 50% weaker.

If you buy that, Kurama only has to become 50%+ stronger to surpass his VOTE self. Perfect Jinchuuriki + SM certainly beats that mark with flying colors.



Turrin said:


> The only difference is SM power added but SM isn’t enough to make up the difference of 50% Kyuubi because as we saw BM which is the power of 50% Kyuubi is far greater then even WA SMs power.



Of course he was! Naruto is a human, the Kyuubi is the strongest Bijuu.

Are you seriously compared SM given to a human with becoming the Jinchuuriki of the Kyuubi? Thats ridiculous.

If you want to see how much Sage Mode adds to Kurama, you dont compare it to if it is enough for a human to become as strong as Bijuu Mode. You see how much it multiplies the strenght of the user. Sage Mode is a multiplier, it doesnt add a boost to Naruto and adds it to his Bijuu Mode, it multiplies Naruto's strenght in Bijuu Mode.

Does SM multiplies Naruto's power more than 50%? You betcha! Just look at how Naruto in base without SM went from being below ANBU tier to compete with Pain.

BM + SM is without a doubt a multiplier greater than 50%



Turrin said:


> 8. Since Hashirama beat a stronger ISO then the one that beat weakened Juubito, he should also be able to beat weakened Juubito. How Hashirama stacks up against Juubito at full power we don’t know for certain but it’s probably a close fight, since his power is greater then weakened Juubito by a fair amount. Also supporting this Madara even weakened as an Edo was extremely confident he could beat Juubito by stealing Even a weekend Edo Hashirama Senjutsu who had already expends a great deal of said Senjutsu figjting Madara
> 
> 9. So what we end up with is that Juubito might not even be superior to Living Hashirama, but if he is it’s definitely not a tier gap.



I.... dont even know what to say Turrin. Wow. Honestly, what the fuck happened to you these years I was absent from the Naruto community?

I didnt always agreed with you, but you were one of the most reasonable posters. In the era of "Itachi solos, GG " you used to be a voice of reason.

Maybe its because I have followed ZERO about Boruto and related material, but I guess something there must have happened that really fucked up the scale, or they wank the shit out of the founders there.



Turrin said:


> ——-
> 
> As far as RSM Naruto we can discuss that after we finish this discussion



Okay no Turrin, stop. Seriously, there is simply no conceivable reason Hashirama can even inconvenience Rikudou Senjutsu Naruto.

This guy is at least 4 tiers above baseline Juubi Jinchuuriki. How the fuck can you even entretain the idea Hashirama can fight him?

Hashirama and Madara (without Rikudou powers) are not gods Turrin. They are the greatest among men and legends, but they are not at the level of Juubi Jinchuurikis, this is simply ridiculous and goes counter not only to feats, but the narrative intent itself.


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## Hi no Ishi (Apr 4, 2019)

And just to remind everyone:


BSM is not Base SM Naruto + 50% Kurama. 


It's Kurama and Naruto merged in Sage Mode.
Kurama flat out tells us it's his power  up with Senjutsu. And just in case we were daft and didn't take hints he showed us the Kurama Avatar in Sage Mode unlike Minato's and let us watch as he went from having the  markings to Naruto having clearly rounded  on his avatars eyes that  there.

Hardly anyone here would say something like Sage Naruto with 50% of his chakra is worse than base rested Naruto. Fewer still would say Academy Naruto is >> Hiruzen because he has more chakra.

Yet both of these seem the prevailing logic styles in favor of Hashirama.


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## Alita (Apr 4, 2019)

SM Hashi>Prime kurama and madara>EMS Sauce and BSM Naruto

Hashi wins.


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## JJ Baloney (Apr 4, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> And just to remind everyone:
> 
> 
> BSM is not Base SM Naruto + 50% Kurama.
> ...


So would I be crazy to think BSM is SM Naruto power × Yang Kurama power?

Reactions: Like 1


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 4, 2019)

Alita54 said:


> SM Hashi>Prime kurama and madara>EMS Sauce and BSM Naruto
> 
> Hashi wins.


SM Hashirama couldn't even dent Kurama with his Top Transformed Buddha, and Kurama couldn't even used his best abilities. EMS Madara is not more powerful than BSM Naruto, hell EMS Sasuke is probably at his level too since he can use Perfect Susano'o too.

Hashirama isn't defeating the guys who defeated Juubito.


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## Alita (Apr 4, 2019)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> SM Hashirama couldn't even dent Kurama with his Top Transformed Buddha, and Kurama couldn't even used his best abilities. EMS Madara is not more powerful than BSM Naruto, hell EMS Sasuke is probably at his level too since he can use Perfect Susano'o too.
> 
> Hashirama isn't defeating the guys who defeated Juubito.



Hashi wasn't trying to harm kurama he just wanted to capture him. And juubito lost cause of cis/pis.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 4, 2019)

Alita54 said:


> Hashi wasn't trying to harm kurama he just wanted to capture him. And juubito lost cause of cis/pis.


Hashirama couldn't harm Kurama regardless, his attacks lack the firepower to do so and the only thing he can do is suppress him and put him to sleep so Madara can't keep mindraping him into serving him. Juubito lost at the end due to his will faulting while facing the 'younger version of himself', Naruto, something he doesn't have if he faced Hashirama. And doesn't change the fact BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke were still keeping pace and even boxing him when he was bloodlusted.


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## Hi no Ishi (Apr 5, 2019)

Wrecked Baloney said:


> So would I be crazy to think BSM is SM Naruto power × Yang Kurama power?


Closer to (Naruto × Kurama) × SM = BSM Naruto imho.

I dislike trying to put it into numbers but:

If Sage Mode is a 10x boost or so like the DB sorta implies with Jiraiya and I ignore that Kurama obviously grew back to Gamabunta size like the rest of the tailed beast, then 100%K ÷ 2 = 50%K. 
50%K(N) × 10= 500%K(10N) for BSM Naruto.

Even with numbers it makes no sense whatsoever to say someone is weaker in Sage Mode than if they simply had more chakra or even mass.

It also makes no sense to assume that with Naruto and Sasuke there they would stand and try to take 10,000 dick punches rather than use any other Jutsu simply because EMS Madara did and hasn't shown us any other good jutsu on his end.

Reactions: Like 1


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## blk (Apr 5, 2019)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And doesn't change the fact BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke were still keeping pace and even boxing him when he was bloodlusted.



Full power, non-Pis, Juubito would destroy BSM Naruto + EMS Sasuke (same with the founders).
Barrier + 4 charged juubidamas and there is nothing they can do.

But with the same conditions as in the manga fight, replace Naruto and Sasuke with Hashi and Madara and they will do even better than the former.


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## Rai (Apr 5, 2019)

Sasuke and Naruto avatar fusion isn't like Madara who is only covering PS armor over Kurama.

They're basically combining  their power and the result is much stronger in ever stats and everything else:

From being powerless to able to destroy Momoshiki's golem like it was paper:


*Spoiler*: __ 



















Madara's case is not the same:

There wasn't any boost from Kurama it physical stats are the same:


*Spoiler*: __ 











BSM Naruto is at least equal to 100% Kurama or slighly stronger and EMS Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o is his equal.

So yeah the duo fusion wins.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Apr 5, 2019)

@Orochibuto 

I stopped when you started using a Base Edo Hashirama clone as representative of Hashirama full power. If you want to discuss the topic with me start by acknowledging how wrong that is and then we can go from there


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## Turrin (Apr 5, 2019)

Rai said:


> Sasuke and Naruto avatar fusion isn't like Madara who is only covering PS armor over Kurama.
> 
> They're basically combining  their power and the result is much stronger in ever stats and everything else:
> 
> ...


Sasuke literally compares is to what Madara did....

And why are you even talking about Adult Sasuke and Naruto when talking about BSM? Of course the boost from Rinnegan Adult Sasuke Susanoo will be larger...


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## Turrin (Apr 5, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Closer to (Naruto × Kurama) × SM = BSM Naruto imho.
> 
> I dislike trying to put it into numbers but:
> 
> ...


This is incorrect. It would only be x10 Kurama if Naruto was counter balancing Yang Kyuubi chakra against natural energy. But we know he isn’t doing that here as Yang Kyuubi chakra is so greater that even 1/4 was enough to counter balance all the natural energy in the world when fighting against Sasuke.

So in BSM it’s Naruto using his Base Chakra to mold Sage Chakra and as such it’s x10 Narutos Base

Narutos Base was around x4 Kakashi in the Wind-Arc; and has grown a bit since then, but even if we say it’s x6 Kakashi in the War; that’s brings him to x60 Kakashi with SM. Yang Kyuubi is stated to be x100 Kakashi or greater

So BSM is probably around 160-200x Kakashi, depending on how much we want to wank Naruto's Base increased.

Yin and Yang Kurama or 100% Kurama are x200 Kakashi or more.

Sasuke P-Susanoo was the size of 50% Kyuubi and Madaras was the size of 100% Kyuubi; so Madara Susanoo is likely more powerful boost then Sasukes.

Ether way though an extremely wanked BSM ISO and downplayed Madara ISO are equal; and an more rational estimate of BSM ISO is far bellow Madaras

As far as getting into that multi level kyuubi stuff that doesn’t happen until RSM.

Like I said even RSM could only balance 1/4 the Kyuubi chakra with the worlds natural energy and you could maybe  say that at that point the avatar went SM and was at 500x Kakashi in that final clash, of alternativel it may have just been 1/4 Kyuuni chakra so more like X25 x10; so adding x100K on top of the other x75 Kakashi; so around x175 Kakashi; though this also gets into what is RSM multiplier vs SMs and how the other Bijuu and Naruto chakra factor in, but yeah


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## dergeist (Apr 5, 2019)

@Turrin I don't think the rules of balancing chakra apply in RSM, RSM itself is the Jyubi's SM which itself is purely natural energy. That's why Naruto taking in all the natural energy wouldn't need to be balanced. It's also why he maintained RSM throughout even after taking an overload of natural energy without any ill effect.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Rai (Apr 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Sasuke literally compares is to what Madara did....
> 
> And why are you even talking about Adult Sasuke and Naruto when talking about BSM? Of course the boost from Rinnegan Adult Sasuke Susanoo will be larger...



Yes, except Madara's Susano'o and 100% Kurama chakra power didn't combine only complemented like PS sword + Bijuudama and covered the armor on top of Kurama.

It's different because Naruto and Sasuke chakra power are combining and thus resulting on a much stronger one.

They're combining their strenght so it's the same.


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## Orochibuto (Apr 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @Orochibuto
> 
> I stopped when you started using a Base Edo Hashirama clone as representative of Hashirama full power. If you want to discuss the topic with me start by acknowledging how wrong that is and then we can go from there



Edo Hashirama is at least 51% of Hashirama's full power. This is an undeniable manga fact and Im extremely lowballing Edo Hashirama.


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## dergeist (Apr 5, 2019)

Orochibuto said:


> Edo Hashirama is at least 51% of Hashirama's full power. This is an undeniable manga fact and Im extremely lowballing Edo Hashirama.



At least? He was revived near his full power all the Edo's were. I would say at least 85% + of his full power.


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## Grinningfox (Apr 5, 2019)

Orochibuto said:


> Edo Hashirama is at least 51% of Hashirama's full power. This is an undeniable manga fact and Im extremely lowballing Edo Hashirama.



Way more than 50% my dude

They were stated to be near full power


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## Trojan (Apr 5, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> I disagree, but I do agree that it's sad to see many unwilling to accept another one's argument and resort to jabs (other than SaiyaMan) instead of trying to provide a compelling argument. Narutoforums has really fallen so low from what it once was...


I don't think it's that way.

it's ok to debate with someone who actually wants to reach a right conclusion. However, Turrin is obviously an Ultra-Mega-Troll. no matter how obvious the thing is, he will never admit he is wrong, and will go on to create an endless amount of headcanon scenarios and jumb from one to the other.

Every time you clarify to him why said scenario that he created from his head is not correct, he just changes it to suit his agenda. No one is willing to go in an endless debate with him because he is just a troll who wants to waste time and effort.

Heck, he wants you to bring pages about his HEADCANON scenarios and show how that scenario is wrong! 
I think it's fairly obvious that the guy is not sane...


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## Hi no Ishi (Apr 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> This is incorrect. It would only be x10 Kurama if Naruto was counter balancing Yang Kyuubi chakra against natural energy. But we know he isn’t doing that here as Yang Kyuubi chakra is so greater that even 1/4 was enough to counter balance all the natural energy in the world when fighting against Sasuke.


To start, that's  even what he .
So nope to that, sir. It's not all the world's energy at all. 

Secondly, how did you even reduce Yin Kurama and part of the other 8 beast combined with Naruto's and Hagaromo's chakra to just 1/4 in your mind anyway? 
There is no basis for it.

And, even more importantly BSM is stated to be Kurama's power and Senjutsu synced up. You can even clearly see that his Avatar made of Kurama and his own chakra mixed together has sage mode marks on his eyes.



*Spoiler*: _From earlier in the thread._ 




And just to remind everyone:



*Spoiler*: _From earlier in the thread._ 






BSM is not Base SM Naruto + 50% Kurama. 


It's Kurama and Naruto merged in Sage Mode.
Kurama flat out tells us it's his power  up with Senjutsu. And just in case we were daft and didn't take hints he showed us the Kurama Avatar in Sage Mode unlike Minato's and let us watch as he went from having the  markings to Naruto having clearly rounded  on his avatars eyes that  there.

Hardly anyone here would say something like Sage Naruto with 50% of his chakra is worse than base rested Naruto. Fewer still would say Academy Naruto is >> Hiruzen because he has more chakra.

Yet both of these seem the prevailing logic styles in favor of Hashirama.










Turrin said:


> Sasuke P-Susanoo was the size of 50% Kyuubi and Madaras was the size of 100% Kyuubi; so Madara Susanoo is likely more powerful boost then Sasukes.


Kurama went back to the same size as the other tailed beast, who are all about the same size as Gamabunta minus the tails.
Same as OG Kurama was.

He is always that size when compared to other large creatures. Both as an Adult and a Child Kurama has always been shown to be similar in size to the others and 0 pictures show them to be different sizes when near each other. 

We even see him return to normal from having his chakra ripped off and sealed away again via eating Uzumaki later. So we know he can do that for a fact.


Turrin said:


> Ether way though an extremely wanked BSM ISO and downplayed Madara ISO are equal; and an more rational estimate of BSM ISO is far bellow Madaras


Again, based on almost nothing real.


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## Hi no Ishi (Apr 5, 2019)

Biju size comparisons.       


That's right, all of them are the same body size my friends!


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## Turrin (Apr 5, 2019)

@Hi no Ishi 

Naruto saying that the two powers are syncd doesn’t support your premise. If you are syncing two things it means they are separate and then being combined. So as I said Naruto is entering SM with his Base reserves and then syncing it with his BM; rather then entering SM with his BM chakra, which wouldn’t require syncing anything.

This is the same thing that Sasuke did with CS and Susanoo; he took the CS chakra generated from Juugo and syncd it with his Susanoo. This caused a visible change in Susanoo form (CS Mark), just like we see a visible change in the BM avatar, but it’s two distinct powers.

This is exactly what happens with Nagato. Naruto is in SM via his Base chakra and then he syncs it with KN0; rather then entering SM with KN0 chakra. And since this is what Kyuubi directly referenced as “syncing” the two modes it’s obvious that Naruto is doing the same with BSM

——

And adding fragments of the other Bijuu chakra and Naruto base doesn’t change anything...the bulk was Kyuubis which is what I was highlighting. Anyway my point is the only time that we see Bijuu chakra being directly balanced with natural energy; is via that Kyuubi clone and even then it took an enormous amount Moreno of natural energy then even what Naruto has previously in RSM (whether it was all in the word or not) to balance out correctly with one of 4 clones. 

So there is no way in hell that the tiny amount of natural energy Naruto took in instantly in the Juubito fight is balancing with the chakra of Yang Kurama. He’s balancing it against his base and then syncing the powers


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> This thread just shows how bad the Naruto wank or Hashirama downplay is when Hashirama can beat a ISO Susanoo comprised of a stronger P-Susanoo and both halves of Kurama but somehow looses to one half and a weaker Susanoo ISO



Just because your reasoning is faulty, it doesn't make anyone who disagrees a Naruto wanker or Hashirama downplayer.


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## Turrin (Apr 5, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Just because your reasoning is faulty, it doesn't make anyone who disagrees a Naruto wanker or Hashirama downplayer.


Cool come back to me when you have a real argument


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Cool come back to me when you have a real argument



Present an actual argument as opposed to your botched "durr Hashirama is RSM Naruto level" and I'll get back to you.

Or, better yet, tell me what points you feel are being ignored and I'll address them directly.


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## Zembie (Apr 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Cool come back to me when you have a real argument


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## Turrin (Apr 5, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Present an actual argument as opposed to your botched "durr Hashirama is RSM Naruto level" and I'll get back to you.
> 
> Or, better yet, tell me what points you feel are being ignored and I'll address them directly.


I have already stated my thoughts multiple times. 

Naruto and Sasuke are each one half of Hagaromos power, which is on the same Tier as the 3 Eyed Ootsuki like Kaguya, Fused Momo, and Juubidara. So we know for a fact that they are not on the level of Full powered Juubi Jin individually supported even further by them needing each other’s help to defeat the 3 eyed version (and in some cases even more help) 

Instead they are on the level of the characters that make up 1/2 of Hagaromos power like Asura and Indra; supported by Sasuke strongest attack at VOTE name dropping Indra (in Indras Arrow). This is the same level that the other Asura and Indra incarnations were at when they literally fought at the Valley of the End themselves 

This is supported by the fact that Naruto and Sasuke individually the strongest they beat is probably Hashirama and Madara; or maybe Juubito who is within the same league as Hashirama and Madara.

We’ve seen this via the fact that a weaker Edo Madara with Hashirama leftover Senjutsu states he can solo Obito; and a weakened Juubito loosing to weaker version of Madara ISO.

Literally there is no room for RSM Naruto to be far stronger then Hashirama and far weaker then the 3 Eyed Juubi Jin’s.
Naturally he falls on the same tier as the Not full power Juubi Jin’s which is the same Tier as Hashirama albeit they are stronger then Hashirama


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## Orochibuto (Apr 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> This thread just shows how bad the Naruto wank or Hashirama downplay is when Hashirama can beat a ISO Susanoo comprised of a stronger P-Susanoo and both halves of Kurama but somehow looses to one half and a weaker Susanoo ISO



Hashirama downplay?

Dude you are seriously arguing Hashirama can defeat or fight Naruto *with the power of the Senjutsu of the Sage of Six Paths!
*
This Naruto is at least 4 tiers above Edo Hashirama, and no, you dont get to dismiss my argument because "I use Edo Hashirama", because even if I lowball him extremely and put him at 51% of alive Hashirama (which is the absolute lowest you can put him per manga canon) doubling his power is not enough to put him 4 tiers above, which is the minimum of RS Natuto.


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## Turrin (Apr 5, 2019)

Orochibuto said:


> Hashirama downplay?
> 
> Dude you are seriously arguing Hashirama can defeat or fight Naruto *with the power of the Senjutsu of the Sage of Six Paths!
> *
> This Naruto is at least 4 tiers above Edo Hashirama, and no, you dont get to dismiss my argument because "I use Edo Hashirama", because even if I lowball him extremely and put him at 51% of alive Hashirama (which is the absolute lowest you can put him per manga canon) doubling his power is not enough to put him 4 tiers above, which is the minimum of RS Natuto.


Can you please show me the 4 Tiers above Hashirama, by placing characters on those Tiers? And since you said Naruto was at least 4 Tiers can you also show the 5th Tier above Hashirama?

Cause I have no way to conceptualize what your talking about otherwise


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## Orochibuto (Apr 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Can you please show me the 4 Tiers above Hashirama, by placing characters on those Tiers? And since you said Naruto was at least 4 Tiers can you also show the 5th Tier above Hashirama?
> 
> Cause I have no way to conceptualize what your talking about otherwise



RS Naruto >=< Juudara (Shinju + Juubi) > Juudara > Juubito > Uncontrolled Juubito >>>>>> Edo Hashirama.

That is at least 4 tiers, which he will not jump just by doubling his power.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Naruto and Sasuke are each one half of Hagaromos power, which is on the same Tier as the 3 Eyed Ootsuki like Kaguya, Fused Momo, and Juubidara. So we know for a fact that they are not on the level of Full powered Juubi Jin individually supported even further by them needing each other’s help to defeat the 3 eyed version (and in some cases even more help)



You have grouped them all incorrectly. 

Kaguya's power far exceeds Shinjudara, let along Juubidara. She's in a tier of her own. 

Fused Momo was able to take on stronger versions of Naruto and Sasuke; Sasuke who mastered the Rinnegan and Naruto who has 100% Kurama and the benefits of Hashirama's cells. 

That would place fused Momo in a tier with adult Naruto and adult Sasuke. Above Kaguya who is decisively above Shinjudara. Where Naruto and Sasuke fall depends on if you factor their power mastery.

A lot of things overlooked, man.



> Instead they are on the level of the characters that make up 1/2 of Hagaromos power like Asura and Indra; supported by Sasuke strongest attack at VOTE name dropping Indra (in Indras Arrow). This is the same level that the other Asura and Indra incarnations were at when they literally fought at the Valley of the End themselves
> 
> This is supported by the fact that Naruto and Sasuke individually the strongest they beat is probably Hashirama and Madara; or maybe Juubito who is within the same league as Hashirama and Madara.



The name argument is extremely weak. Naruto had the Six Paths Senjutsu (Juubi power) and Sasuke had the Rinnegan (meaning Indra and Asura's chakra together). That implies they were stronger than Indra and Asura. 

You're hinging on the imagery and the name drop without any real substance. Sasuke's Indra's arrow had him use the power of the Rinnegan enhanced by all the Bijuu. Indra never had that power. 
Naruto had Juubi Jin level powers and fused 3 Bijuu avatars with all the world's NE. We got no indication Asura had that.

We know Asura had this bodily chakra and Indra had his eye chakra. Naruto and Sasuke effectively got half of Hagoromo in a different way: Sasuke got the Rinnegan and Naruto got Juubi level powers. The brothers got the body and eyes, respectively which weren't as powerful as they would be unified. 

Juubito way out of Hashirama's league. You're basing that of the Iso argument which ignores that Naruto and Sasuke combined their Senjutsu enhanced chakra to battle something far greater than a Senjutsuless Kurama+Susanoo.



> We’ve seen this via the fact that a weaker Edo Madara with Hashirama leftover Senjutsu states he can solo Obito; and a weakened Juubito loosing to weaker version of Madara ISO.



That's dishonest of you, Turrin.

This weaker Edo Madara using his full powers would still be stronger than you're placing him. Hashirama was surprised his cells were in Madara, indicating Madara did not use Mokuton on him. Madara didn't even use other Rinnegan powers besides the stakes and Preta. Edo Madara *held back *on Hashirama, whether it was due to plot or he had faith that had this under control, who knows. 

Let us see what you are not considering: Edo Tensei Madara who has the Rinnegan (all the same powers Edo Nagato had access to, perhaps stronger versions), the EMS, Mokuton (including jutsu he would've copied) whose physical capabilities were greater due to Hashirama's cells... and he would have all these powers and attributes rapidly boosted by a perfect Sage Mode.

That's way beyond Edo Hashirama's capabilities. 



> Literally there is no room for RSM Naruto to be far stronger then Hashirama and far weaker then the 3 Eyed Juubi Jin’s.
> Naturally he falls on the same tier as the Not full power Juubi Jin’s which is the same Tier as Hashirama albeit they are stronger then Hashirama



Except to make these stick you had to underestimate several characters and omit a lot of power boosts. Do you see the flaw here?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 5, 2019)

All this said, I still believe that VOTE Hashirama has a good shit of beating EMS Sasuke and BSM Naruto.


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## Zembie (Apr 5, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> All this said, I still believe that VOTE Hashirama has a good shit of beating EMS Sasuke and BSM Naruto.


No matter what you think on this fight, I think we can all agree that Hashirama is not on RSM level


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 5, 2019)

Zembie said:


> No matter what you think on this fight, I think we can all agree that Hashirama is not on RSM level



That I agree.


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## Bonly (Apr 5, 2019)

Hashi can beat their strongest attack and Hashi can also outlast their mechas(which they need to fight him to have a chance) time/chakra limit so it’s just a matter of time before Hashi kills them


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 5, 2019)

I don't think Naruto and Sasuke's combined mecha can overcome Hashirama using the Buddha or Deity Gates. Also his golem is as strong, or stronger than, 100% Kurama. Yes, Naruto and Sasuke's combo will have Senjutsu- but so will Hashirama's jutsu.

Now, unlike most who will interpret this as Hashirama ~ Juubito. Juubito's head clearly wasn't in the game, it was a big part of why he lost.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 5, 2019)

Bonly said:


> Hashi can beat their strongest attack and Hashi can also outlast their mechas(which they need to fight him to have a chance) time/chakra limit so it’s just a matter of time before Hashi kills them


A Senjutsu powered Super Bijudama cant' be beaten by Hashirama, and Sasuke's Amaterasu is a perfect counter to Mokuton. Not only that, the Scorch Release: Rasenshuriken which was strong enough to damage the Juubi would completely obliterate Shinsusenju and make it nothing but unusable burning cinders. Hashirama ALSO has a time limit for his Sage Mode, but I'd wager Naruto and Sasuke would outlast him given what they did against Juubito.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 5, 2019)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> A Senjutsu powered Super Bijudama cant' be beaten by Hashirama, and Sasuke's Amaterasu is a perfect counter to Mokuton. Not only that, the Scorch Release: Rasenshuriken which was strong enough to damage the Juubi would completely obliterate Shinsusenju and make it nothing but unusable burning cinders. Hashirama ALSO has a time limit for his Sage Mode, but I'd wager Naruto and Sasuke would outlast him given what they did against Juubito.



I don't entirely agree, but if you want to go ultra simple: the mechas can instantly be shut down by Hashirama using the Deity Gates.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 5, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I don't think Naruto and Sasuke's combined mecha can overcome Hashirama using the Buddha or Deity Gates. Also his golem is as strong, or stronger than, 100% Kurama. Yes, Naruto and Sasuke's combo will have Senjutsu- but so will Hashirama's jutsu.
> 
> Now, unlike most who will interpret this as Hashirama ~ Juubito. Juubito's head clearly wasn't in the game, it was a big part of why he lost.


Here's the thing about Yang Kurama being weaker than '100% Kurama', no where in the manga or databooks said that Kurama got weaker after Minato split him between Yin and Yang. And Mokujin would be obliterated by just Biju Mode Naruto since he can either go fully transformed, or just use Kurama Mode to get through Mokujin's defenses and then transform at the last second and obliterate it with a point-blank Bijudama or Biju power Rasenshuriken.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 5, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I don't entirely agree, but if you want to go ultra simple: the mechas can instantly be shut down by Hashirama using the Deity Gates.


And then Naruto and Sasuke simply go humanoid form and then go back and reform while Hashirama is just trying to hit them. Naruto and Sasuke move or in Sasuke's case, react much faster than Hashirama has been shown to deal with (given how they went toe to toe with Juubito when he _was_ serious and when he wasn't expressing doubts).


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 5, 2019)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Here's the thing about Yang Kurama being weaker than '100% Kurama', no where in the manga or databooks said that Kurama got weaker after Minato split him between Yin and Yang. And Mokujin would be obliterated by just Biju Mode Naruto since he can either go fully transformed, or just use Kurama Mode to get through Mokujin's defenses and then transform at the last second and obliterate it with a point-blank Bijudama or Biju power Rasenshuriken.



Kurama is at half capacity, the general idea would be that he got weaker. Also we saw the the effect on the shrouds when Naruto had the other half of Kurama's chakra; they got stronger. Presumably the same would apply if Naruto had Kurama (100%).

Hashirama could defend, or have a few Mokuton catch the Bijuu Dama, like did. Then there is the Buddha...



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And then Naruto and Sasuke simply go humanoid form and then go back and reform while Hashirama is just trying to hit them. Naruto and Sasuke move or in Sasuke's case, react much faster than Hashirama has been shown to deal with (given how they went toe to toe with Juubito when he _was_ serious and when he wasn't expressing doubts).



If they go humanoid, then they set themselves for a Mokuton barrage. It doesn't take a lot for Hashirama to use the Deity Gates. 

Hashirama, and Madara, have the tools to overcome these young chaps.


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## Turrin (Apr 5, 2019)

Orochibuto said:


> RS Naruto >=< Juudara (Shinju + Juubi) > Juudara > Juubito > Uncontrolled Juubito >>>>>> Edo Hashirama.
> 
> That is at least 4 tiers, which he will not jump just by doubling his power.


So you think each of those characters are separated by a entire Tier? How do you define Tier separation?

I ask this because I don’t disagree with how your ranking the characters except for the gap between Juubito and Hashirama, all the other characters I consider above Hashirama


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 5, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kurama is at half capacity, the general idea would be that he got weaker. Also we saw the the effect on the shrouds when Naruto had the other half of Kurama's chakra; they got stronger. Presumably the same would apply if Naruto had Kurama (100%).


But the manga never explicitly said that. Hell it went further and further on on how powerful Kurama was regardless. Sure you can imply Yang Kurama is weaker, but feats say otherwise, as well as there being no statements, even from Kurama himself, that he got weaker from what Minato dealt with him. 'Half capacity' doesn't really mean anything for a creature whose more powerful than five of its own brethren and just the Yang chakra would be enough to overload the Gedo Mazo if it were taken first


> Hashirama could defend, or have a few Mokuton catch the Bijuu Dama, like did. Then there is the Buddha...


He's not defending while simultaneously getting his constructs lit alight by Sasuke's Kagutsuchi. And at 100 meters, Naruto can simply speedblitz.




> If they go humanoid, then they set themselves for a Mokuton barrage. It doesn't take a lot for Hashirama to use the Deity Gates.
> 
> Hashirama, and Madara, have the tools to overcome these young chaps.


They have the tools, but they lack the speed or raw power to capitalize on it. At 100 meters, Naruto's more than fast enough to just speedblitz Hashirama before he can finish making his first seal-Naruto even without combining Sage and Biju Mode could intercept five Bijudama's at the same time with just Kurama Mode, and with KCM is faster than A. Hashirama isn't and has never been a speedster, nor shown high reactions.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 5, 2019)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> But the manga never explicitly said that. Hell it went further and further on on how powerful Kurama was regardless. Sure you can imply Yang Kurama is weaker, but feats say otherwise, as well as there being no statements, even from Kurama himself, that he got weaker from what Minato dealt with him. 'Half capacity' doesn't really mean anything for a creature whose more powerful than five of its own brethren and just the Yang chakra would be enough to overload the Gedo Mazo if it were taken first



The alliance's shrouds won't have gotten bigger and stronger if 50% Kurama lost no power, dude. All your points do is suggest how much more powerful 100% Kurama is.



> He's not defending while simultaneously getting his constructs lit alight by Sasuke's Kagutsuchi. And at 100 meters, Naruto can simply speedblitz.



Mokuton has consistently shown to be versatile. Worst comes to worst, wood clones can be used; unlike Kage Bunshins, they can still fight after being destroyed.



> They have the tools, but they lack the speed or raw power to capitalize on it. At 100 meters, Naruto's more than fast enough to just speedblitz Hashirama before he can finish making his first seal-Naruto even without combining Sage and Biju Mode could intercept five Bijudama's at the same time with just Kurama Mode, and with KCM is faster than A. Hashirama isn't and has never been a speedster, nor shown high reactions.



They have enough speed and raw power to do what is necessary. Naruto could not speed blitz Obito, or Madara. Sage Mode Naruto got blitzed by Madara. Madara with just Senjutsu could easily dodge Sasuke's attacks. Hashirama pointblank dodged 100% Kurama-Susanoo's slashes. The founders are not as slow as you're making them out to be, relative to Naruto and Sasuke ITT. 

Speed is overrated by many. The simple fact Naruto/Sasuke/Tobirama/Minato didn't instantly blitz many characters in the manga despite some forumer's swearing by the supreme power of speed is proof enough.


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## Sufex (Apr 5, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If they go humanoid, then they set themselves for a Mokuton barrage. It doesn't take a lot for Hashirama to use the Deity Gates.


BSM naruto should be fast/ reactive enough not just to get blitzed.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 5, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> BSM naruto should be fast/ reactive enough not just to get blitzed.



Mokuton has a lot of AOE though, the reach is insane.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So you think each of those characters are separated by a entire Tier? How do you define Tier separation?
> 
> I ask this because I don’t disagree with how your ranking the characters except for the gap between Juubito and Hashirama, all the other characters I consider above Hashirama



Are you considering Juubito's full power? 'Cause that includes the Shinju tree and its roots.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 5, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The alliance's shrouds won't have gotten bigger and stronger if 50% Kurama lost no power, dude. All your points do is suggest how much more powerful 100% Kurama is.


Other translations say it just got thicker not stronger. Again, why didn't Kurama say that he gotten stronger after being in contact with Yin Kurama or vice versa?




> Mokuton has consistently shown to be versatile. Worst comes to worst, wood clones can be used; unlike Kage Bunshins, they can still fight after being destroyed.


Mokuton has versatility, but isn't fast enough to deal with characters that move as fast as Naruto or Minato, or react as fast as Sasuke.




> They have enough speed and raw power to do what is necessary.


No, they don't. Tobirama is still faster than Hashirama from feats and Hashirama has shown he's a lot slower than the rest of the Hokage, even Hiruzen showed better speed feats. Raw power is also inferor to what Naruto pumps out with his Biju Mode.


> Naruto could not speed blitz Obito


Obito is a fighter that could go toe to toe with Minato in speed, but Naruto DID manage to speedblitz and headbutt him once while he was berating Kakashi.


> or Madara.


Madara never faced one of Naruto's blitzes until he got RSM. 


> Sage Mode Naruto got blitzed by Madara.


Sage Mode Naruto also was about to lose Sage Mode then from using that gigantic Rasenshuriken and clearly BLOCKED Madara's attack. 


> Madara with just Senjutsu could easily dodge Sasuke's attacks.


Madara also got stabbed then by Sasuke. Not that it matters, that version of Madara is a lot stronger than the one that Hashirama faced in life.


> Hashirama pointblank dodged 100% Kurama-Susanoo's slashes.


And Naruto's speed is repeatedly compared to Minato's during the War Arc, who is decisively faster than Hashirama. 


> The founders are not as slow as you're making them out to be, relative to Naruto and Sasuke ITT.


They kind of are. Hashirama and Madara are more known for their raw power than their blitzing ability. Hashirama is slower than Tobirama, whose slower than Minato, who Naruto is around the same level as with just KCM or KM. Sasuke was shown he could react to Juubito's attacks and even counter them, something more than Hashirama has been able to do.


> Speed is overrated by many. The simple fact Naruto/Sasuke/Tobirama/Minato didn't instantly blitz many characters in the manga despite some forumer's swearing by the supreme power of speed is proof enough.


You could easily argue that's PIS/CIS since it would ruin the story Kishimoto was trying to portray. If a character is far faster than the other, they kind of have a decisive advantage. Added to the fact Naruto's KM and BSM are physically more powerful than Hashirama and Madara, and far faster. Again, Naruto and Sasuke were dealing with a character (Juubito) whose far faster and stronger than Hashirama and Madara, and they not only held their own but actually got in a few hits.


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## Turrin (Apr 5, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You have grouped them all incorrectly.
> 
> Kaguya's power far exceeds Shinjudara, let along Juubidara. She's in a tier of her own.
> 
> ...


1. I’m not saying all 3 Eyed Juubi Jin’s are all equal in strength I’m saying they are all above RSM Naruto; do you disagree? 

2. Munboy why would Kishi have him name drop Indra Arrow if it wasn’t suppose to be indicative of Indras power; and Asura had the same 3 Head Asura Avatar that Naruto formed in that final clash as well. Saying Indra didn’t have power like that, is not a claim you can possible provide evidence for because literally thee only indication of Indra power we have is that he can use a Susanoo and the Indra Arrow technique. 

3. I’ve done very detailed estimates of Naruto ISO power compared to Madaras and it’s weaker. Even if we don’t want to use the numerical estimates I’ve shown, we know for a fact that Toad-SM is an inferior power to BM, and BM is 50% of the Fox power; so that missing 50% matters more then any power Toad-SM is providing Sasuke and Narutos ISO.

4. It’s not that Madara held back its that even with the additions Kabuto made Madara strongest power was still P-Susanoo. The Gokage counter everything else and he falls back on P-Susanoo. And that’s what he uses on Hashirama, so he was going full tilt.

Edo Madara is still much weaker then Living Madara because he lacks the ability to combine his P-Susanoo with the Kyuubi yo form ISO. At best maybe you can say the left over chakra from Edo Hashirama SM would make up that differance, but it seems unlikely. Ether way Edo Madara with Hashirama Senjutsu is still around the level of VOTE LIVING Madara who was defeated by Hashirama. Ultimately we see that the VOTE incarnations of the founders could likely step to Juubito and beat him under the right conditions they are the same Tier.

5. Who am I underestimating? Forget Tiers who can RSM Naruto and VOTE Sasuke realistically beat that Hashirama can’t, from what I can tell you can at best make a case for Juubito, who given Edo Madara could beat him, I think you can also make a case for the founders beating him too when at their best or at least pushing him to high diff. To me that seems to indicate these characters are around thre same level.


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## Orochibuto (Apr 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So you think each of those characters are separated by a entire Tier? How do you define Tier separation?



It depends if the power difference is very substantial or not and if the above characters can defeat the lower ones with relative ease.

Uncontrolled Obito destroyed Hashirama AND Tobirama at the same time, following an admission of inferiority. Making the difference very clear.

Obito then attained a further transformation and became a perfect Jinchuuriki of the Juubi, he became untouchable after that, meaning the difference is substantial.

Juudara was then stated to be more powerful than Juubito, I dont know if the difference is enough to be a tier though, but he was stronger.

Upon absorbing the Shinju, Madara who previously was challenged by Gai, claimed this new power made him completely immortal and eternal. And was confident to take on Naruto and Sasuke combined. Definitively a tier above.

Then finally Naruto and Sasuke completely outclassed Shinjuudara, making him flat out run away and cutting him in half. Granted this was, Naruto + Sasuke, so I dont know if Naruto alone would outclassed, still given this, Naruto should be either stronger or roughly equal to this Madara.

So lets see:

U Obito - Hashirama (tier)

U Obito - Juubito (tier)

Juubito - Juudara (stronger by unknown quantity)

Juudara - Shinjudara (tier)

Shinjuudara - Six Paths Naruto (unknown, Naruto might be stronger)

These are at least 3 tier, Hashirama isnt bridging that just by almost (extreme lowballing) doubling his power.

Or seen in another way: There are 5 people, the weakest of which is stronger than Hashirama. Hashirama is not jumping to beating the arguably stronger of those 5 just by almost doubling his power.

I am using the best possible scenario for Hashirama (assuming Edo is reduced by 51% which is the lowest I can go before the manga outright calls me a tier) and I am using the worst situation for Obito (assuming that despite blitzing and ripping up Tobirama and his brother at the same time following an admission of inferiority by Edo Hashirama, the difference is never superior to 1 tier)

I am also being conservative and assuming the difference between Juubito and Juudara is short and assuming that just because Naruto + Sasuke completely outclassed Shinjuudara, it doesnt necessarily mean Naruto is stronger)

Even then, Hashirama still falls short by 3 tiers and he is not jumping 3 tiers by just almost doubling his power.

Come on Turrin.

Now add shit like RS Naruto ripping Kaguya's arm and the difference just got bigger by several orders of magnitude.


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## Hi no Ishi (Apr 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Naruto saying that the two powers are syncd doesn’t support your premise. If you are syncing two things it means they are separate and then being combined. So as I said Naruto is entering SM with his Base reserves and then syncing it with his BM; rather then entering SM with his BM chakra, which wouldn’t require syncing anything.


Senjutsu and Kurama's chakra are two separate powers he is mixing at once with his own. That's literally what synchronize means. 

He and Kurama have melded chakra to the point where sensors like  had a hard time telling them apart.  
He isn't in base in the first place so it makes no sense to say it only mixing with his base chakra. I could see if he actually wnt down to base first to do it where you nigh have gotten that but that's clearly not what happened.

On top of that is the other stuff you keep ignoring like the avatar made of their blended chakra clearly going into sage mode as well. 
If you clearly see Kurama and Naruto's chakra have sage markings, I don't know how this is even a question 


Turrin said:


> This is the same thing that Sasuke did with CS and Susanoo; he took the CS chakra generated from Juugo and syncd it with his Susanoo. This caused a visible change in Susanoo form (CS Mark), just like we see a visible change in the BM avatar, but it’s two distinct powers.


They are start as two distinct powers but blend together, obviously. That's why its called Senjutsu: Susanoo.
It's his Susano'o in the cursed seal state, which they say he is compatable enough still to do. 
That's also why it looks like Sasuke's cursed seal and not Jugo's.




Turrin said:


> This is exactly what happens with Nagato. Naruto is in SM via his Base chakra and then he syncs it with KN0; rather then entering SM with KN0 chakra. And since this is what Kyuubi directly referenced as “syncing” the two modes it’s obvious that Naruto is doing the same with BSM


You keep trying to box it into either Kurama(SM) + Naruto or Naruto(SM) + Kurama when nothing says that.

It's (Naruto)(Kurama)(SM).

He is entering SM with his merged chakra pool as we can all clearly see from how his chakra looks. 
It doesn't gain Sage Mode marks for no reason.


Turrin said:


> And adding fragments of the other Bijuu chakra and Naruto base doesn’t change anything...the bulk was Kyuubis which is what I was highlighting. Anyway my point is the only time that we see Bijuu chakra being directly balanced with natural energy; is via that Kyuubi clone and even then it took an enormous amount Moreno of natural energy then even what Naruto has previously in RSM (whether it was all in the word or not) to balance out correctly with one of 4 clones.


Why keep ignoring Hagaromo's chakra?
And that he clearly was able to do alot with the other beast chakra as well?


And it's the same trick he does with clones in base. It shouldn't be enough to bring him to sage mode but it is. That's just how that trick worked since the Pain arc



Turrin said:


> So there is no way in hell that the tiny amount of natural energy Naruto took in instantly in the Juubito fight is balancing with the chakra of Yang Kurama. He’s balancing it against his base and then syncing the powers


 where did you get that it was a small amount? So many assumptions. 

Naruto, who can already near instantly go into Sage Mode normally at this point, is shocked how fast he gathered the energy.
It's also enough for several TBB and successive attacks unlike when Minato just draws in a small amount of senjutsu and loses the form after one attack.
It clearly would take a shit ton of senjutsu for that to work. Or to even put sage marks on his Kurama Avatar for matter


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## Orochibuto (Apr 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 2. Munboy why would Kishi have him name drop Indra Arrow if it wasn’t suppose to be indicative of Indras power; and Asura had the same 3 Head Asura Avatar that Naruto formed in that final clash as well. Saying Indra didn’t have power like that, is not a claim you can possible provide evidence for because literally thee only indication of Indra power we have is that he can use a Susanoo and the Indra Arrow technique.



Thats like saying that a Napoleonic era Russian general is as strong as WW2 USSR just because an operation was named after him.



Turrin said:


> 5. Who am I underestimating? Forget Tiers who can RSM Naruto and VOTE Sasuke realistically beat that Hashirama can’t, from what I can tell you can at best make a case for Juubito, who given Edo Madara could beat him, I think you can also make a case for the founders beating him too when at their best or at least pushing him to high diff. To me that seems to indicate these characters are around thre same level.



Yes, SM alive Madara would had defeated Obito because he had an unknown plan to do it, implied to be a sneak attack.....

Remember how Shinjuudara believed he can defeat Rikudou Naruto and Sasuke?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. I’m not saying all 3 Eyed Juubi Jin’s are all equal in strength I’m saying they are all above RSM Naruto; do you disagree?



WTF is a 3 eyed Juubi Jin, we've only had 1, maybe 2 if you count Hagoromo.  Also, which RSM Naruto, there's a HUGE difference between post-series RSM Naruto and the in-series variant.



> 2. Munboy why would Kishi have him name drop Indra Arrow if it wasn’t suppose to be indicative of Indras power; and Asura had the same 3 Head Asura Avatar that Naruto formed in that final clash as well. Saying Indra didn’t have power like that, is not a claim you can possible provide evidence for because literally thee only indication of Indra power we have is that he can use a Susanoo and the Indra Arrow technique.



Its just a damn name, like Naruto's avatar just had a similar appearance. It doesn't overwrite the *mountains of evidence *that Naruto/Sasuke obtained more power than Hagoromo's sons. 



> 3. I’ve done very detailed estimates of Naruto ISO power compared to Madaras and it’s weaker. Even if we don’t want to use the numerical estimates I’ve shown, we know for a fact that Toad-SM is an inferior power to BM, and BM is 50% of the Fox power; so that missing 50% matters more then any power Toad-SM is providing Sasuke and Narutos ISO.



No-one, myself included, trusts your quantitative estimates seeing as you equate Jiraya's clearly inferior SM to Naruto's clearly superior one. Whilst assuming 50% Kurama's _entire reserves _is merely 100x Kakashi. 

Let's use portrayal and feats, things everyone can agree on, before we get to the stage of tackling your numbers. Naruto _and _Sasuke effectively combined a Senjutsu Susanoo and Senjutsu Kurama to create a mega Senjutsu Iso. That's a Sage Mode boost which _*far *_exceeds SM Jiraiya's, Oro's and the CS. It comes across as to maintain this silliness of SM Jiraiya's imperfect SM is _thee _universal Sage multiplier, you're willing to drastically adjust portrayal. If Madara applied Senjutsu to either Kurama or PS, you'd be bang on.



> 4. It’s not that Madara held back its that even with the additions Kabuto made Madara strongest power was still P-Susanoo. The Gokage counter everything else and he falls back on P-Susanoo. And that’s what he uses on Hashirama, so he was going full tilt.
> 
> Edo Madara is still much weaker then Living Madara because he lacks the ability to combine his P-Susanoo with the Kyuubi yo form ISO. At best maybe you can say the left over chakra from Edo Hashirama SM would make up that differance, but it seems unlikely. Ether way Edo Madara with Hashirama Senjutsu is still around the level of VOTE LIVING Madara who was defeated by Hashirama. Ultimately we see that the VOTE incarnations of the founders could likely step to Juubito and beat him under the right conditions they are the same Tier.



Madara's strongest offence was PS, perhaps. But he still had access to everything else, CSTs, CTs, Demon Realm and Animal Realm powers which were limited to his imagination and so forth. In fact, he could even use PS to cast these jutsu. The guy wasn't even going all out; Hashirama didn't even know he had Mokuton. Madara was holding back for some silly reason, plot or not, we know he wasn't fighting with all he has. Presumably with Juubito he would, especially with Sage Power dramatically enhancing everything. 

How did you reach the conclusion that Edo Madara can't combine PS with Kurama? 



> 5. Who am I underestimating? Forget Tiers who can RSM Naruto and VOTE Sasuke realistically beat that Hashirama can’t, from what I can tell you can at best make a case for Juubito, who given Edo Madara could beat him, I think you can also make a case for the founders beating him too when at their best or at least pushing him to high diff. To me that seems to indicate these characters are around thre same level.



EVERYONE -- well any character whose actual power threatens the model you've constructed. 

You severely underrate Edo Madara and you underestimate Naruto and Sasuke's Iso; especially the Senjutsu boosts that go into them. It doesn't bode well when you're blatantly ignoring factors such as all the powers Edo Madara didn't use, which he could use through his own body or through PS. For example, if V3 Susanoo could bring down 2 meteorites which could clean up the battlefield, what could PS do? These are all absent in your assessment of things. 

A lot of people would say your argument is faulty purely because of the omissions you make, let alone the context you ignore when applying the numerical analysis to the characters' powers.

Why omit all these things Edo Madara can do?

Why is it okay to ignore context when saying SM's multiplier is the same for imperfect Sages like Jiraiya and perfect Sages like Naruto, yet you feel we must look deep into any context you feel is there in the _name _of Sasuke's jutsu and _appearance _of Naruto's jutsu?

All these inconsistencies are _why _you are being questioned here. Address these.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 5, 2019)

@Hi no Ishi

I’m going to trim some fat here and get to the heart of the discussion

Kyuubi tells us that what Naruto did against Nagato is the same synchronization that is accoring in BSM in this scan:

Kyuubi clearly separates the two powers; saying it was using “your SM” in addition to “his power”. He says it twice. And thats literally what we saw happen; Naruto entered SM with his own chakra and then KN0 was added to it.

He did not use Balance Natural energy with Kyuubi chakra to create Sage Chakra, he used his own.

Also take into consideration this scan:


BSM Naruto forms a TBB and then says he’s going to “add” Senjutsu to it. Here we again see it’s an addition of powers rather then the powers being one and the same.

If Kyuubi chakra was already balanced with natural energy form Sage Chakra; Naruto wouldn’t need to then add Senjutsu to the TBB.

Your point that he didn’t power down to base doesn’t matter as Narutos chakra can is kept separate from the Kyuubi; which the whole reason why even when BM runs out Naruto still has his Base reserves:

So he can use his Base specifically for a Jutsu if he wants.

——-
I realize that it’s the same thing as him using clones in the Pain arc to gather natural energy. That’s not the point. The point is that when Kyuubi gathered the natural and balanced it with his own chakra; he had to gather a far greater amount of natural energy then what Naruto had before even in RSM. This shows what kyuubi was doing there balancing the chakra he had with Natural energy goes beyond what had been done previously with RSM.

For example of Naruto in RSM was balancing his Bijuu chakra with natural energy then what Kyuubi did wouldn’t have accomplished anything as Naruto was already in RSM

As for the rest RSM is highly speculative on how it works but:

I would assume RSM is Hagaromo Chakra  (which contains a bit of the 9 Bijuu) ccombined with Narutos Base and that amount wasn’t balanced with natural energy; which is what that first RSM form was without the Kyuubi Chakra Aura. Then Naruto adds the Bijuu chakra mode on top of it which is the second RSM. And the final RSM is when Kyuubi balances the Bijuu chakra directly with Natural energy to form the Asura Avatar. To simplify:


Toad SM = Base Naruto chakra + Natural energy

BSM =  Toad SM (Base Chakra + Natural energy ) + BM (Yang Kurama Chakra)

RSM V1 = 
RSM V2 =  RSM V1 (Base Naruto (Narutos Chakra + Hagaromos Chakra) +  Natural Energy) + Bijuu Chakra (Yin Kurama + Other Bijuu)
RSM V3 = Bijuu Chakra + Natural Energy


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Apr 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @Hi no Ishi
> 
> I’m going to trim some fat here and get to the heart of the discussion
> 
> ...


Since you continue to refuse to answer any of my questions directly, acknowledge or respond your repeated shot down theories, or even bother multiquoting so you don't keep missing things, _I'm_ going to trim even more "fat" for you, sir.:

1. Do you, or do you not see that the avatar made of Naruto and Kurama's chakra gain round markings unlike Minato's?   




Do you? Or do you not?


----------



## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

"Manga panels are not proof" - Turrin


----------



## blk (Apr 6, 2019)

I didn't read all the posts but is this argument just about putting Hashi in the same tier as RSM Naruto? 

Tiers are just labels, the person decides where they start and if you want to put the founders at the God tier you can, but it doesn't change the fact that (roughly speaking) characters from Juubito to Kaguya/fused momo/3 eyed Madara stomp all the others by feats.

There is no contest between RSM Naruto and Hashi, even if you put the latter in the same tier (tho tier differentiation starts to become a bit meaningless then).


----------



## blk (Apr 6, 2019)

Also the fact that RSM Naruto >>>> Hashi is irrevelant to the fact that the latter wins more than not against BSM Naruto + EMS Sasuke.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 6, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Since you continue to refuse to answer any of my questions directly, acknowledge or respond your repeated shot down theories, or even bother multiquoting so you don't keep missing things, _I'm_ going to trim even more "fat" for you, sir.:


Don't expect anything else from him...


----------



## Sufex (Apr 6, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Don't expect anything else from him...


He will never acknowledge being wrong and he has the stamina to outmatch the whole forum. I can guarantee this ends only when people stop caring trying to convince him anymore


----------



## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Since you continue to refuse to answer any of my questions directly, acknowledge or respond your repeated shot down theories, or even bother multiquoting so you don't keep missing things, _I'm_ going to trim even more "fat" for you, sir.:
> 
> 1. Do you, or do you not see that the avatar made of Naruto and Kurama's chakra gain round markings unlike Minato's?
> 
> ...


I already answered this 2 posts ago:

Or to clarify it again, the markings appear on the BM avatar to show that Naruto is adding his Sage Chakra to the Avatar. Just like Sasuke adds Juugo Senjutsu to his Susanoo is indicated by the Curse Mark.

However Naruto is still creating that Sage Chakra with his Base Chakra and Natural energy (not Kyuubi Chakra). Just like Sasuke Susanoo isn’t generating that Sage Chakra for Curse Mark itself, but rather it’s coming from Juugo.

If you want to see the proof that it’s Base Naruto Chakra being used in conjunction with natural energy see my previous post which you totally ignored


----------



## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> "Manga panels are not proof" - Turrin


Why so buthurt


----------



## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Why so buthurt


----------



## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> He will never acknowledge being wrong and he has the stamina to outmatch the whole forum. I can guarantee this ends only when people stop caring trying to convince him anymore


Have you acknowledge you are wrong on any of the points we discussed? No you haven’t so


----------



## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


>


I like that this emoji has basically become the face of the butthurt brigade when they realize they have zero argument


----------



## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I like that this emoji has basically become the face of the butthurt brigade when they realize they have zero argument


Dream on.


----------



## Sufex (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Have you acknowledge you are wrong on any of the points we discussed? No you haven’t so


What you tried to catch me out on is what you're getting bodied over in this thread. Weather you will see that or not is up to you. But everybody else who is sane does Troll



Turrin said:


> Munboy why would Kishi have him name drop Indra Arrow if it wasn’t suppose to be indicative of Indras power;


This is such a dumb point. 

Just because it's named after him it doesn't have to have exactly the same power.

How the fuck would sasuke know how strong indra was anyway?

Why wouldnt it just be symbolic in name; something kishi does all the time?


----------



## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> WTF is a 3 eyed Juubi Jin, we've only had 1, maybe 2 if you count Hagoromo.  Also, which RSM Naruto, there's a HUGE difference between post-series RSM Naruto and the in-series variant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. Munboy I literally said I’m not trying to rank those characters only show that they are above RSM Naruto which refers to VOTE Naruto

2. There is no way you have a mountain of evidence that Indra and Asura are weaker when we only have 1 panel of them using their abilities. Otherwise please show me this evidence...

3. Toad Sage Mode is created with Naruto Base reserves and then added to ISO; so the Sage multiplier is being applied to Base Narutos Chakra supply and then that power is being added to the Avatar.

Numbers aside this is a matter of addition rather then multiplication.

It’s Naruto Base x SM Multiplier (Whatever You Think it to be) + BM + P-Susanoo

Rather then BM + P-Susanoo x SM multiplier

If you want to see the evidence for that refer to my post in response to Hi no Ishi in this thread


3. His strongest offense and defense was P-Susanoo, we know that because offensive and defensively all these other abilities we’re overcome by the Gokage, while they got slapped by P-Susanoo

4. The idea that P-Susanoo can cast Meteor at higher level then what Madara did before with his other Susanoo or cast all of Paths Jutsu Through Susanoo; is maximum headcanonn on your part. So me not accounting for this headcanon is pretty jusfiable.


5. That fact that those powers are Head canon asside, no matter what powers Edo Madara had doesn’t matter as Edo Hashirama still beat him.


And we know Madara wasn’t holding back since he specifically states he needs to defeat Hashirama quickly and take his Senjutsu Chakra to defeat Obito

And yes the match was close but then Hashirama at the same time was supporting the alliance with Clones and whether it’s due to being an Edo or splitting his chakra with clones or both; he didn’t even use his strongest Jutsu to do so Senpo Shin Suusenju

It’s clear that Edo Madara is much weaker despite gaining new skills then VOTE Madara, probably because he’s not only weaker as an Edo but lacking Kyuubi. Hashirama even makes the clear as he’s concerned about Madara recovering his original power after he’s revived by Rinnei Tensei showing that he fears Living Madara OG VOtE power over what he faced from Edo Madara

6. I’ve addressed the SM thing many times; as I said a more perfect form doesn’t mean the multiplier changes. Jiraiya SM is a more perfect form of Senjutsu then Curs Seal, yet the multiplier is the same. Naruto gains other perks from having a more perfect SM then a large multiplier in his ability’s to use Senjutsu more effectively then Jiraiya.  You insist there’s must be a bigger multiplier just because SM Naruto displayed more raw power, which he obviously would even with the same multiplier because Base Naruto chakra is greater then Base Jiraiya


----------



## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> What you tried to catch me out on is what you're getting bodied over in this thread. Weather you will see that or not is up to you. But everybody else who is sane does Troll
> 
> 
> This is such a dumb point.
> ...


How would Sasuke know what Indra arrow
Was at all; ether Hagaromo showed it to him in a flashback like he showed Naruto shit or the whole thing is a plot hole


What you don’t get is that the final clash between Indra and Asura was clearly the same thing as Naruot and Sasuke with Indra Arrow clashing against Asura Avatar; so why assume their powers are different when they are using the same attack’s and both are halves of the Sage like Naruto and Sasuke who are their dam reincarnations lol


----------



## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

@Turrin I remember you saying that RSM Naruto can't compete with Shinsu senju, why is that?


----------



## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> @Turrin I remember you saying that RSM Naruto can't compete with Shinsu senju, why is that?


I never said that; since I’ve always stated I believe RSM Naruto > Hashirama, but they are simply in the same Tier

I challenge you to ether find that statement or admit you were wrong...


----------



## Sufex (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> How would Sasuke know what Indra arrow
> Was at all; ether Hagaromo showed it to him in a flashback like he showed Naruto shit or the whole thing is a plot hole
> 
> 
> What you don’t get is that the final clash between Indra and Asura was clearly the same thing as Naruot and Sasuke with Indra Arrow clashing against Asura Avatar; so why assume their powers are different when they are using the same attack’s and both are halves of the Sage like Naruto and Sasuke who are their dam reincarnations lol


LMAO Alright so according to your logic since hashirama and masara are also reincarnations thier clash should be Exactly the same power as naruto and sasuke?!?! . In your delusion you played yourself. The truth is you don't care about being right you just want to prove your own point and will use any means to do so and ignore all evidence that proves you wrong. Ironic thats what you accuse everyone else of. Now backpeddle and gallop to another point when you've been exposed. Go on


----------



## Sufex (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I never said that; since I’ve always stated I believe RSM Naruto > Hashirama, but they are simply in the same Tier
> 
> I challenge you to ether find that statement or admit you were wrong...


>hasirama admits obito is much stronger
>to prove this kishi had JJ obito blitz both hash and tobirama before they can even react
>to FURTHER show this, JJ madara who is >>JJ obito fights rsm nardo and sasuke
>gets cockslapped and embarssed so bad he runs to get his 2nd rennegan



Its a never ending cycle with you


----------



## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I never said that; since I’ve always stated I believe RSM Naruto > Hashirama, but they are simply in the same Tier
> 
> I challenge you to ether find that statement or admit you were wrong...


Oh you did say that 

When presented with these:



Your response was this...




And if you believe I am pulled these out of my ass, here is the entire thread:


----------



## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> LMAO Alright so according to your logic since hashirama and masara are also reincarnations thier clash should be Exactly the same power as naruto and sasuke?!?! . In your delusion you played yourself. The truth is you don't care about being right you just want to prove your own point and will use any means to do so and ignore all evidence that proves you wrong. Ironic thats what you accuse everyone else of. Now backpeddle and gallop to another point when you've been exposed.


Madara and Hashirama don’t use Indra Arrow and Asura Avatar. But yes for the most part all the reincarnations we’ve seen are close in power as they are both halves of Hagaromos power and the only time we’ve seen them go beyond that level is when they start stealing the power of the other one and gaining the Juubi

But same level doesn’t mean they are all equal.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Oh you did say that
> 
> When presented with these:
> 
> ...


So basically you believe that RSM strongest attacks are TBB FRS he used against Madara Meteors and FRS he used against Kaguya

Not the fucking Asura Avatar

So yeah I think Shin Suusenju can handle FRS or TBB FRS used against Kaguya and Juubidara, but not Asura Avatar, which is Narutos peak power 

Not a hard concept to grasp; you also seem to struggle with the idea that two characters can be the same Tier but not equal in power


----------



## Zembie (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So basically you believe that RSM strongest attacks are TBB FRS he used against Madara Meteors and FRS he used against Kaguya
> 
> Not the fucking Asura Avatar


What in the world makes you think that he has to use his strongest attack to beat this fodder?
Turrin, there is a reason no one agrees with you.


----------



## Siskebabas (Apr 6, 2019)

There is a lot of headcannon in this thread. First of all naruto bsm coming not from his own reserves but ftom total reserves as he noted himself that being in bm lets him absorb nature energy way more faster. Does this make sense? ofcourse not, as in theory he has aquire so much energy chakra to balance kurama but that just the way it is. He went to another level of absorbing nature chakra when he fought sasuke to match his megazord. Other thing hashirama is not in same tier as rsm naruto not even clone.


----------



## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So basically you believe that RSM strongest attacks are TBB FRS he used against Madara Meteors and FRS he used against Kaguya
> 
> Not the fucking Asura Avatar


Don't put words in my mouth.


Naruto uses one of his arguably weaker jutsu to destroy meteors that *DWARF *SS

This is how big SS is.

Here is the Meteors' *RUBBLE* falling down into the ground.

Which do you think is bigger?


----------



## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> >hasirama admits obito is much stronger
> >to prove this kishi had I'm obito blitz both hash and tobirama before they can even react
> >to FURTHER show JJ madara who is >>JJ obito fights rsm and sasuke
> >gets cockslapped a d ebarssed so bad he runs to get his 2nd rennegan
> ...


Edo Hashirama said Obito is stronger then him, not much stronger

Obito blitz a Mokuton clone; might as well say Onoki > Madara because he tagged one of Madara Mokuton clones 

Juubidara looses to 2 people and you have concluded he’s much weaker then 1 of them, = zero logic


----------



## Sufex (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Oh you did say that
> 
> When presented with these:
> 
> ...


HOLY FUCK



I am so done wasting my time here, if that doesnt get through to him i dont think anything will.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Don't put words in my mouth.
> 
> 
> Naruto uses one of his arguably weaker jutsu to destroy meteors that *DWARF *SS
> ...


Your the one who said I claimed I said RSM Naruto can’t handle Shinsuusenju because I said Shinsuusenju can handle FRS Naruto used against Kaguya. This implies you believe those FRS are Narutos strongest attack, not Asura Avatar

And I never said Naruto’s TBB FRS lack the raw power to destroy Shinsuusenju. Madara TBB could have done so as well. The problem is Shinsuusenju isn’t just going to sit there and take the attacking like the meteor it clashes against the attack with its 1-thousand hands defending itself

Edit: also no clue how tour concluding FRS TBB is one of Naruto weaker Jutsu; appears to be his strongest outside Asura Avatar


----------



## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Your the one who said I claimed I said RSM Naruto can’t handle Shinsuusenju because I said Shinsuusenju can handle FRS Naruto used against Kaguya. This implies you believe those FRS are Narutos strongest attack, not Asura Avatar
> 
> And I never said Naruto’s TBB FRS lack the raw power to destroy Shinsuusenju. Madara TBB could have done so as well. The problem is Shinsuusenju isn’t just going to sit there and take the attacking like the meteor it clashes against the attack with its 1-thousand hands defending itself


So what you are saying is the attack that Naruto used against Kaguya is weaker than his Bijuudama Rasenshuriken? Don't try to turn my words around your narrative, you were presented with the fucking ASURA AVATAR AND YET YOU STILL SAID NARUTO'S ARSENAL CAN'T COMPARE TO SS, LOOK AT YOUR RESPONSES IN THE THREAD.

The moment SS tries to hit one rasenshuriken it's gonna explode, pulverizing the whole construct. Your argument is that Kurama's TBB is stronger than this attack, this claim in itself is fucking *LAUGHABLE* when shown that Rikudou chakra is a *BIGGER BUFF* than the *JUUBI*. Do you believe that full Kurama can defeat Juubi? Or that Madara with full Kurama is stronger than Rikudou Madara?


----------



## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Zembie said:


> What in the world makes you think that he has to use his strongest attack to beat this fodder?
> Turrin, there is a reason no one agrees with you.


You need to realize that a few people one one forum is not indicative of the entire community of Naruto fans. You guys don’t agree but can’t offer a credible argument otherwise; at least @Hi no Ishi and @Munboy Dracule O'Brian try to offer something even though I believe they are fundemantalky wrong. You guys spam emojis or out of context scans and then complain that I don’t agree with you...

Sorry I just don’t. Theres no need to be so buthurt about us having a difference in opinion about this one aspect of the series


----------



## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> You need to realize that a few people one one forum is not indicative of the entire community of Naruto fans. You guys don’t agree but can’t offer a credible argument otherwise; at least @Hi no Ishi and @Munboy Dracule O'Brian try to offer something even though I believe they are fundemantalky wrong. You guys spam emojis or out of context scans and then complain that I don’t agree with you...
> 
> Sorry I just don’t. Theres no need to be so buthurt about us having a difference in opinion about this one aspect of the series


You believe everyone is fundamentally wrong when it doesn't fit your narrative. There are no "out of context" scans, you just use this argument to ignore what is blatantly shown to you.


----------



## Zembie (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> You guys don’t agree *but can’t offer a credible argument otherwise;* at least @Hi no Ishi and @Munboy Dracule O'Brian try to offer something even though I believe they are fundemantalky wrong. You guys spam emojis or out of *context scans*


I am not even going to comment on this, Turrin. I have presented you with arguments and *RELEVANT SCANS* which you still disagree. Don't act like I've never presented arguments in other threads. Every argument people use is "fundamentally wrong" when it doesn't fit one's narrative.


----------



## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> HOLY FUCK
> 
> 
> 
> I am so done wasting my time here, if that doesnt get through to him i dont think anything will.


Spoiler alert: It doesn't


----------



## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> So what you are saying is the attack that Naruto used against Kaguya is weaker than his Bijuudama Rasenshuriken? Don't try to turn my words around your narrative, you were presented with the fucking ASURA AVATAR AND YET YOU STILL SAID NARUTO'S ARSENAL CAN'T COMPARE TO SS, LOOK AT YOUR RESPONSES IN THE THREAD.
> 
> The moment SS tries to hit one rasenshuriken it's gonna explode, pulverizing the whole construct. Your argument is that Kurama's TBB is stronger than this attack, this claim in itself is fucking *LAUGHABLE* when shown that Rikudou chakra is a *BIGGER BUFF* than the *JUUBI*. Do you believe that full Kurama can defeat Juubi? Or that Madara with full Kurama is stronger than Rikudou Madara?


No I didn’t. Look at what you quoted and realize I’m talking about the FRS used against Kaguya and the TBB FRS used against Madara.

I’ve never said that Hashirama can take on Asura Avatar because I’ve always believe he looses to it from day 1. Reread every discussion we have had and realize that I’ve always said RSM Naruto is stronger then Hashirama and the reason for that is Asura Avatar.

Where we disagree is that you believe without assurance Avatar Naruto spanks Hashirama and he can’t handle things like the FRs used against Kaguya

And not the FRs isn’t going to explode because Madara TBB when hit also didn’t explode. Hashirama wood constructs have the ability to swat away or even grab the TBB without them exploding woven seen this numbers times in that fight 

And no my argument isn’t that Kurama TBB is stronger then that attack, my argument is that P-Susanoo Kurama TBB is probably around that’s level; and even if it’s weak Shinsuusenju dealt with many more of them then the 6 FRs TbB RSM Naruto used 

Reread our discussion to verify everything I just said


----------



## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Zembie said:


> I am not even going to comment on this, Turrin. I have presented you with arguments and *RELEVANT SCANS* which you still disagree. Don't act like I've never presented arguments in other threads. Every argument people use is "fundamentally wrong" when it doesn't fit one's narrative.


Presenting scans isn’t an argument by itself you need to explain why those scans matter and illustrate your point. All your doing is saying look at this I think it’s stronger so your wrong Turrin; and I ask for proof that it’s stronger and you say look it did X which you assume is better then what Y could do. There is no proof there just opinion; to which mine differs form yours...


----------



## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> No I didn’t. Look at what you quoted and realize I’m talking about the FRS used against Kaguya and the TBB FRS used against Madara.
> 
> I’ve never said that Hashirama can take on Asura Avatar because I’ve always believe he looses to it from day 1. Reread every discussion we have had and realize that I’ve always said RSM Naruto is stronger then Hashirama and the reason for that is Asura Avatar.
> 
> ...


I re-read it before I sent it to you, Naruto doesn't need Asura's avatar to defeat Hashi.

_*"my argument is that P-Susanoo Kurama TBB is probably around that’s level"*_

Look at what you are saying Turrin. You GENIUENLY BELIEVE THAT PS KURAMA SUSANOO IS around *RIKUDOU* level attacks, unless you show me feats of these jutsu busting shit that dwarf Mountain tops then what you are saying is pretty much *HEADCANON*.


----------



## Zembie (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> And not the FRs isn’t going to explode because Madara TBB when hit also didn’t explode. Hashirama wood constructs have the ability to swat away or even grab the TBB without them exploding woven seen this numbers times in that fight



You are forgetting that its not only a Tailed beast bomb, not only a Rasenshuriken, and also that it is powered by the *SAGE CHAKRA OF THE SIX PATHS.*



> *And no my argument isn’t that Kurama TBB is stronger then that attack, my argument is that P-Susanoo Kurama TBB is probably around that’s level; and even if it’s weak Shinsuusenju dealt with many more of them then the 6 FRs TbB RSM Naruto used *


You are wrong. The Kurama TBB are no where near comparable to a *TAILED BEAST BOMB RASENSHURIKEN.  *You are comparing a tailed beast bomb from a bijuu to the power of the six paths. What the hell?


----------



## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> I re-read it before I sent it to you, Naruto doesn't need Asura's avatar to defeat Hashi.
> 
> _*"my argument is that P-Susanoo Kurama TBB is probably around that’s level"*_
> 
> Look at what you are saying Turrin. You GENIUENLY BELIEVE THAT PS KURAMA SUSANOO IS around *RIKUDOU* level attacks, unless you show me feats of these jutsu busting shit that dwarf Mountain tops then what you are saying is pretty much *HEADCANON*.


If you read it before hand then your straight lying because I was never talking about Asura Avatar. And when it comes to you guys complaining that I never admit when I’m wrong, you can’t even admit that you were wrong about this...

Naruto FRS is not Rikudo level; Rikudo is not the level of Sasuke and Naruto combined power no their individual power. 

It’s a RSM attack sure but Rikudo would molest RSM Naruto


----------



## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> If you read it before hand then your straight lying because I was never talking about Asura Avatar. And when it comes to you guys complaining that I never admit when I’m wrong, you can’t even admit that you were wrong about this...
> 
> Naruto FRS is not Rikudo level; Rikudo is not the level of Sasuke and Naruto combined power no their individual power.
> 
> It’s a RSM attack sure but Rikudo would molest RSM Naruto


Don't call me a liar when you can't even understand the premise of what I am saying.

*"Naruto FRS is not Rikudo level; Rikudo is not the level of Sasuke and Naruto combined power no their individual power. 

It’s a RSM attack sure but Rikudo would molest RSM Naruto"*

This... doesn't even make sense.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Zembie said:


> You are forgetting that its not only a Tailed beast bomb, not only a Rasenshuriken, and also that it is powered by the *SAGE CHAKRA OF THE SIX PATHS.*
> 
> 
> You are wrong. The Kurama TBB are no where near comparable to a *TAILED BEAST BOMB RASENSHURIKEN.  *You are comparing a tailed beast bomb from a bijuu to the power of the six paths. What the hell?


Dude what is Six Paths Chakra it’s the power of Hagaromo and the Bijuu. Madara has P-Susanoo (a power of Hagaromo) and the power of the Bijuu (Kyuubi)


----------



## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Don't call me a liar when you can't even understand the premise of what I am saying.
> 
> *"Naruto FRS is not Rikudo level; Rikudo is not the level of Sasuke and Naruto combined power no their individual power.
> 
> ...


Do you not know that Rikudo = Hagaromo

And as far as you lying goes do you admit you were wrong to say I was talking about Asura Avatar; if you don’t then your lying it’s that simple


----------



## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Dude what is Six Paths Chakra it’s the power of Hagaromo and the Bijuu. Madara has P-Susanoo (a power of Hagaromo) and the power of the Bijuu (Kyuubi)


P-Susanoo was never stated to be a power of Hagoromo first and foremost. So that means EMS Sasuke and BSM Naruto are almost Hagoromo level? (since Sasuke has PS, and Naruto has Kurama)? Dude what the hell...


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Do you not know that Rikudo = Hagaromo
> 
> And as far as you lying goes do you admit you were wrong to say I was talking about Asura Avatar; if you don’t then your lying it’s that simple


Rikudou level means Six paths, those who posses the power of the six paths (rikduou chakra) are Rikudou level (Juubi-jins, DMS Kakashi, Rinnegan Sasuke _*since they have six path chakra too)*_


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## PrimeRichard (Apr 6, 2019)

Founders logic: 
EMS madara >>>> EMS sasuke
100% kurama >>>> 50% BM naruto

Hashirama >>> EMS madara + 100% kurama so he beats EMS sasuke and 50%BM naruto. This is what we call as amateur thinking and ABC logic 
*EMS madara only jutsu he uses is PS. No versatility in jutsu*

*Does EMS madara has jutsu like * Sage mode to boost his attacks, Amaterasu, enton, kirin, massive TBB, FRS which cut juubi tails, enton kagutsuchi and futon rasenshuriken combo. Did he use 9 clones through 100% kurama like naruto did against juubito. If he didn't then shut the fuck up
Naruto and sasuke reacted to JJ juubito who is faster than SM hashi and madara

*Did mindless 100% kurama used* *jutsu* like chakra claws to attack, did he use his tails to block attacks like obito katon, did he give chakra shroud to boost madara physical stats like the aliiance and sasuke. Did he match chakra output of hashirama budha, Did kurama give battle advice to madara like how he does for naruto. If he didn't then shut the fuck up

50% perfect jin BSM naruto + his abilities  and EMS sasuke susanoo + abilities >>>> Sage mode hashirama >>>> mindless kyuubi and EMS madara. Deal with it


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> P-Susanoo was never stated to be a power of Hagoromo first and foremost. So that means EMS Sasuke and BSM Naruto are almost Hagoromo level? (since Sasuke has PS, and Naruto has Kurama)? Dude what the hell...


Yes it was; the Elder Son inherited his ocular power form Hagaromo. So all Sharingan Dojutsu are Hagaromo power.

It just matter how much of that power someone has; obviously 3T is far off from Hagaromo full power. Madara is much closer to this because he’s fully masters EMS which is the eye power of Hagaromo

As far as the other question no they aren’t close because they lack many components Sasuke has the eye power of Hagaromo (though it’s questionable if his EMS was fully mastered at the time of BsM) but doesn’t have the body power or Bijuu power of Hagaromo

Naruto has the body power and some Bijuu power but nowhere near Hagaromos


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Rikudou level means Six paths, those who posses the power of the six paths (rikduou chakra) are Rikudou level (Juubi-jins, DMS Kakashi, Rinnegan Sasuke _*since they have six path chakra too)*_


Dude the Senju posses the Sages chakra too...


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## Zembie (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> *Naruto FRS is not Rikudo level; Rikudo is not the level of Sasuke and Naruto combined power no their individual power.
> 
> It’s a RSM attack sure but Rikudo would molest RSM Naruto*



Okay, here we go again...


This Madara has both the Rinnegan and the Bijuu to put them on your "Rikudou level". I will disregard your argument immediately if you mention that Madara is healing *SINCE HE OUTRIGHT STATES THIS. *You can't ignore this statement since you love citing statements made by characters left and right.



You will ignore all these feats only to say that these are *not* *credible argument  *or are   *out of context scans*


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Dude the Senju posses the Sages chakra too...



Dude your line of thinking is so wrong. To get the chakra of the six paths you need to *ACQUIRE* both *INDRA* (not Uchiha, since the bloodline has been diluted over the centuries) and *ASHURA*. Your line of thinking is so full of headcanon I don't even know what to say dude. I am trying to use *FEATS, *while you are trying to argue with me using your *PERSONAL OPINION* over things.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Okay, here we go again...
> 
> 
> This Madara has both the Rinnegan and the Bijuu to put them on your "Rikudou level". I will disregard your argument immediately if you mention that Madara is healing *SINCE HE OUTRIGHT STATES THIS. *You can't ignore this statement since you love citing statements made by characters left and right.
> ...


He doesn’t have both Rinnegan or the full power of the Juubi since he hasn’t absorbed the tree and he was injured whether you like it or not


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> He doesn’t have both Rinnegan or the full power of the Juubi since he hasn’t absorbed the tree and he was injured whether you like it or not


"HURR DURR MADARA SAID HE WILL BEAT JUUBITO"
 Ok, but Madara also said that Naruto was just stronger than him and it was not because he was injured.
(HURR DURR HE WAS INJURED THATS WHY HE GOT HIS ASS KICKED)
So you want to believe one statement from the same character, but refuse to accept the other?


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## Zembie (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> He doesn’t have both Rinnegan



He has the rinnegan, right?



> or the full power of the Juubi since he hasn’t absorbed the tree and he was injured whether you like it or not



We don't know how much the shinju actually affects his power, another moot point. The only thing I get is that this Madara is inferior to CLOAKLESS RSM Naruto. The same Madara is stronger than Juubito, who Hashirama admitted inferiority to.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Dude your line of thinking is so wrong. To get the chakra of the six paths you need to *ACQUIRE* both *INDRA* (not Uchiha, since the bloodline has been diluted over the centuries) and *ASHURA*. Your line of thinking is so full of headcanon I don't even know what to say dude. I am trying to use *FEATS, *while you are trying to argue with me using your *PERSONAL OPINION* over things.


Sigh... okay no you don’t:

Right there Hagaromo says Asura inherited his body chakra while Indra inherited his Dojutsu Chakra:


We are then told this chakra was passed down to the reincarnations

Of which Hashirama and Madara were

So they have the Chakra of the Body and Mind/Dojutsu of Hagaromo

Hagaromo physical chakra is the chakra of Kaguya (in other words the chakra of the Juubi / 9 Bijuu); that’s why Asura gains the same Asura Bijuu Avatar as Naruto.

Hagaromo mental or dojutsu chakra is what’s contained in the Sharingan

Combine those 2 powers and you get the same thing as Hagaromos power; Madara did this as VOTE by combing Bijuu (Kyuubi Chakra) with Susanoo Chakra.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> "HURR DURR MADARA SAID HE WILL BEAT JUUBITO"
> Ok, but Madara also said that Naruto was just stronger than him and it was not because he was injured.
> (HURR DURR HE WAS INJURED THATS WHY HE GOT HIS ASS KICKED)
> So you want to believe one statement from the same character, but refuse to accept the other?


He said it wasn’t just because he was injured, dude.. it means that he’s saying it’s both that he’s injured and Naruto got stronger

It’s not a hard concept to grasp


----------



## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Zembie said:


> He has the rinnegan, right?
> 
> 
> 
> We don't know how much the shinju actually affects his power, another moot point. The only thing I get is that this Madara is inferior to CLOAKLESS RSM Naruto. The same Madara is stronger than Juubito, who Hashirama admitted inferiority to.


Yes we do; Madara after absorbing the Shinju and recovering from Gai was able to take on RSM Naruto in his V2 with a Bijuu Cloak while before he was loosing to V1 RSM Naruto without his Bijuu cloak; so he was much weaker. Then he gained the other Rinnegan and could take both Sasuke and Naruto on


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> He said it wasn’t just because he was injured, dude.. it means that he’s saying it’s both that he’s injured and Naruto got stronger
> 
> It’s not a hard concept to grasp


 
Not to mention Madara then proceeds to absorb the shinju, and gets his ass handed to him by both Naruto and Sasuke, Sasuke going as far as to cut him in half (indicating he is faster than him)
They only needed eachother so they can seal him, Madara was completely overwhelmed.


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## Zembie (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yes we do; Madara after absorbing the Shinju and recovering from Gai was able to take on RSM Naruto in his V2 with a Bijuu Cloak while before he was loosing to V1 RSM Naruto without his Bijuu cloak; so he was much weaker. Then he gained the other Rinnegan and could take both Sasuke and Naruto on


He was getting absolutely clowned that he had to run away to get his other Rinnegan, not that it matters, since 1 Rinnegan Madara is in a tier that Hashirama doesn't belong in.


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## Sufex (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Dude the Senju posses the Sages chakra too...




Turrin:
_>Hashirama is strong enough to beat momoshiki and several other god tiers 
>Senju have sage of six paths chakara
>Indra and asuras clash must have the exact same power in their clash beause sasukes attack was dubbed indras arrow
>ect.
_
Normal people: 
_>But turrin thats fucking retarded and heres why, its clear that ect. this panel shows that: ect. 
_
Turrin:_ No thats not proof because
>Hashirama is strong enough to beat momoshiki and several other god tiers 
>Senju have sage of six paths chakara
>Indra and asuras clash must have the exact same power in their clash because sasukes attack was dubbed indras arrow
>ect.
_
Normal people:_ This is why no one takes you seriously
_
Turrin:_ If you guys actually gave me real reasons and evidence maybe i would concede. You are ALL wrong and im right, you just cant accept differing opinions. stay butthurt XD_

Never mind the fact you always try to use strawmans and misrepresent peoples posts, trying to make them look dumb. Not only are you wrong and ignorant, you're a dishonest debater.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Not to mention Madara then proceeds to absorb the shinju, and gets his ass handed to him by both Naruto and Sasuke, Sasuke going as far as to cut him in half (indicating he is faster than him)
> They only needed eachother so they can seal him, Madara was completely overwhelmed.


Madara questions if he’s loosing because he’s still recovering and he says no Naruto power also grew. So it’s both. 

If I have a sprained knee and I play basket ball against someone and loose; I might question did I loose just because of my sprained knee; and then say no I lost because the person I’m playing against has also improved. But that doesn’t mean my sprained knee wasn’t a factor at all

And again what does Madara loosing to Sasuke and Naruot combined prove about his strength in relation to theirs individually?


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## Zembie (Apr 6, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> Turrin:
> _>Hashirama is strong enough to beat momoshiki and several other god tiers
> >Senju have sage of six paths chakara
> >Indra and asuras clash must have the exact same power in their clash beause sasukes attack was dubbed indras arrow
> ...


Couldn't have said it better myself. The whole shtick of Turrin is to argue with you until you get bored so he can "claim victory" or whatever.


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## Zembie (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Madara questions if he’s loosing because he’s still recovering and he says no Naruto power also grew. So it’s both.
> 
> If I have a sprained knee and I play basket ball against someone and loose; I might question did I loose just because of my sprained knee; and then say no I lost because the person I’m playing against has also improved. But that doesn’t mean my sprained knee wasn’t a factor at all
> 
> And again what does Madara loosing to Sasuke and Naruot combined prove about his strength in relation to theirs individually?


When he is getting absolutely clowned, you realize that he can't win in a fight with both of them, and 1v1 would be fairer, really not that hard to grasp.


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Sigh... okay no you don’t:
> 
> Right there Hagaromo says Asura inherited his body chakra while Indra inherited his Dojutsu Chakra:
> 
> ...


No, they have the chakra of Indra and Asura, not Hagoromo. Only when you combine it does it become Hagoromo's chakra.

*"Combine those 2 powers and you get the same thing as Hagaromos power; Madara did this as VOTE by combing Bijuu (Kyuubi Chakra) with Susanoo Chakra."*
Not really, Hagoromo's power is Six paths chakra (something that rivals the Juubi in power) *, *not Kyuubi. I can see your reasoning, but its completely and absolutely wrong. Both reincarnations don't have something that Indra and Ashura had: Rikudou chakra (Asura had Gudodamas against Indra). And the bloodlines were diluted by the passing of time. Don't forget that in order for our Indra reincarnates to gain the true power of the Mangekyou they had to steal their siblings' eyes. While Asura had a battle avatar without using *ANY* bijuu.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Zembie said:


> He was getting absolutely clowned that he had to run away to get his other Rinnegan, not that it matters, since 1 Rinnegan Madara is in a tier that Hashirama doesn't belong in.


Reread th fight; he was losing to them 2v1. When Naruto tired to attack him in his own he had his attack blocked and got blown back


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Reread th fight; he was losing to them 2v1. When Naruto tired to attack him in his own he had his attack blocked and got blown back


 
Here is Sasuke solo-ing Madara.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> No, they have the chakra of Indra and Asura, not Hagoromo. Only when you combine it does it become Hagoromo's chakra.
> 
> *"Combine those 2 powers and you get the same thing as Hagaromos power; Madara did this as VOTE by combing Bijuu (Kyuubi Chakra) with Susanoo Chakra."*
> Not really, Hagoromo's power is Six paths chakra (something that rivals the Juubi in power) *, *not Kyuubi. I can see your reasoning, but its completely and absolutely wrong. Both reincarnations don't have something that Indra and Ashura had: Rikudou chakra (Asura had Gudodamas against Indra). And the bloodlines were diluted by the passing of time. Don't forget that in order for our Indra reincarnates to gain the true power of the Mangekyou they had to steal their siblings' eyes. While Asura had a battle avatar without using *ANY* bijuu.


The Kyuubi is a large fragment of the Juubi; what Hagaromo gave Naruto and Sasuke was also just a fragment of the Juno chakra as it was his leftover chakra 

So yes I agree with you that Hagaromo chakra was much greater before but not a smal fragments


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Here is Sasuke solo-ing Madara.


That’s not Sasuke soloing Madara, Naruto was taking care of Madara Rinbo clone at that time; and Madara was distracted going for the Rinengan

As I said Naruto tried to take Madara on solo and got blown back


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## Zembie (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Reread th fight; he was **getting stomped* 2v1. When Naruto tired to attack him in his own he had his attack blocked and got blown back


Fixed, not to mention that Naruto only got hit with Limbo and dodged every other attack, before he even used KB to counter it.


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> The Kyuubi is a large fragment of the Juubi; what Hagaromo gave Naruto and Sasuke was also just a fragment of the Juno chakra as it was his leftover chakra
> 
> So yes I agree with you that Hagaromo chakra was much greater before but not a smal fragments


Yes the Kyuubi is part of the Juubi, but problem is the Juubi can be revived even without the 8 and 9 tails. So they are not as important as one would think.

*"what Hagaromo gave Naruto and Sasuke was also just a fragment of the Juno chakra as it was his leftover chakra"*
Yes, and that chakra made them able to compete with godtiers, doing godly feats (destroying meteors, fighting Kaguya, Naruto dodging *LIGHTSPEED* attacks, Sasuke *BLITZING* Juubi-jin Madara)

"So yes I agree with you that Hagaromo chakra was much greater before but not a smal fragments"
Waat?


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Fixed, not to mention that Naruto only got hit with Limbo and dodged every other attack, before he even used KB to counter it.


Sasuke is as strong as Naruto there that means he was loosing badly to a combined power double RSM Naruto which is meaningless in this discussion so stop using it as a crutch

And again the only time Naruto took Madara on without Sasuke help he got blown back, how is it not clear to you Madara was stronger?


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Sasuke is as strong as Naruto there that means he was loosing badly to a combined power double RSM Naruto which is meaningless in this discussion so stop using it as a crutch
> 
> And again the only time Naruto took Madara on without Sasuke help he got blown back, how is it not clear to you Madara was stronger?


He got blown back without taking any damage at all, so not really relevant. Naruto was shown to be able to match a stronger Madara's Limbo clones with his Kage-bunshin.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Yes the Kyuubi is part of the Juubi, but problem is the Juubi can be revived even without the 8 and 9 tails. So they are not as important as one would think.
> 
> *"what Hagaromo gave Naruto and Sasuke was also just a fragment of the Juno chakra as it was his leftover chakra"*
> Yes, and that chakra made them able to compete with godtiers, doing godly feats (destroying meteors, fighting Kaguya, Naruto dodging *LIGHTSPEED* attacks, Sasuke *BLITZING* Juubi-jin Madara)
> ...


Both the Kyuubi and what Hagaromo gave Naruto and Sasuke are fragments of the Juubi chakra.

Naruto was able to perform his feats not just because of Hagaromo chakra but his own, the other Bijuu, and Kyuubi


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Both the Kyuubi and what Hagaromo gave Naruto and Sasuke are fragments of the Juubi chakra.
> 
> Naruto was able to perform his feats not just because of Hagaromo chakra but his own, the other Bijuu, and Kyuubi


Sure that's fine and dandy, and then you look at Sasuke who doesn't have any bijuus, it just shows how much Six paths chakra amped both. You can even look at Kakashi.


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## Zembie (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Sasuke is as strong as Naruto there that means he was loosing badly to a combined power double RSM Naruto which is meaningless in this discussion so stop using it as a crutch




He was losing, badly which means he was no match for them.



> And again the only time Naruto took Madara on without Sasuke help he got blown back, how is it not clear to you Madara was stronger?


Only got blown back because of Limbo, not to mention doing ZERO damage to Naruto. Stop projecting.
Don't bother responding since talking to you is like talking to a wall, I may be able to do it for hours, but it still won't learn anything.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> He got blown back without taking any damage at all, so not really relevant. Naruto was shown to be able to match a stronger Madara's Limbo clones with his Kage-bunshin.


Do you have any basis for Madara being physically stronger after gaining the second Rinnegan? All he did was increase his clones and Naruto became better able to match those clones by gaining experience fighting them which he only got by teaming up with Sasuke.

And Naruto took damage we even see blood come out of his mouth; he just has high speed regen like Madara


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Sure that's fine and dandy, and then you look at Sasuke who doesn't have any bijuus, it just shows how much Six paths chakra amped both. You can even look at Kakashi.


Sasuke had Sharinngan


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Zembie said:


> He was losing, badly which means he was no match for them.
> 
> 
> Only got blown back because of Limbo, not to mention doing ZERO damage to Naruto. Stop projecting.
> Don't bother responding since talking to you is like talking to a wall, I may be able to do it for hours, but it still won't learn anything.


For them; which is irrelevant to the individual.

Again the only interaction is Naruto get blown back; so I ask again how are you possibly getting the idea that Naruto individually is stronger then 1 Rinnegan Madara from their clash?

I’m asking you for evidence and you just keep pointing to Sasuke and Naruto winning 2v1 that isn’t evidence of their individual performance


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## Sufex (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 3. I’m not sure Hashirama would loose to Kinshiki, Momoshiki, or Toneri;


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Do you have any basis for Madara being physically stronger after gaining the second Rinnegan? All he did was increase his clones and Naruto became better able to match those clones by gaining experience fighting them which he only got by teaming up with Sasuke.
> 
> And Naruto took damage we even see blood come out of his mouth; he just has high speed regen like Madara


*Link Removed* 
I don't see any blood...


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


>


Look another buthurt emoji


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> *Link Removed*
> I don't see any blood...


Look at the top panel and notice what’s coming off of Naruto


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## Sufex (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Look another buthurt emoji


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Look at the top panel and notice what’s coming off of Naruto


I don't see anything that looks like blood to me


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Do you have any basis for Madara being physically stronger after gaining the second Rinnegan? All he did was increase his clones and Naruto became better able to match those clones by gaining experience fighting them which he only got by teaming up with Sasuke.


Ok sure, but what makes you think that Naruto won't be able to match those clones or gain the significant experience without Sasuke?

And Naruto took damage we even see blood come out of his mouth; he just has high speed regen like Madara[/QUOTE]


Turrin said:


> Sasuke had Sharinngan


So Sharingan amps your speed and physical capabilities?


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> I don't see anything that looks like blood to me


----------



## Sufex (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Look at the top panel and notice what’s coming off of Naruto


1 more thing, can i just hear an argument for how hasirama lasts against DMS kakashi?

bear in mind he blitzed the strongest character in the series and please dont disregard his feats.


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Still doesn't look like blood to me, agree to disagree I guess.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Ok sure, but what makes you think that Naruto won't be able to match those clones or gain the significant experience without Sasuke?
> 
> And Naruto took damage we even see blood come out of his mouth; he just has high speed regen like Madara



So Sharingan amps your speed and physical capabilities?[/QUOTE]
The fact that he may not survive long enough to do so

Yeah Sharinngsn does


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> 1 more thing, can i jut hear an argument for how hasirama lasts against DMS kakashi?
> 
> bear in mind he blitzed the strongest character in the series and please dont disregard his feats.


Kakashi didn’t blitz Kaguya

She’s was caught off guard by phasing


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> The fact that he may not survive long enough to do so
> 
> Yeah Sharinngsn does


I don't think so, otherwise Kakashi would be physically weaker now.


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## Sufex (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Kakashi didn’t blitz Kaguya


Then what exactly happened?! I strike that, dont care to get into that with you but how does hashirama win? try and be reasonable now. Imagine im a neutral party who has just finished the manga and you're trying to convince me.


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> Turrin:
> _>Hashirama is strong enough to beat momoshiki and several other god tiers
> >Senju have sage of six paths chakara
> >Indra and asuras clash must have the exact same power in their clash beause sasukes attack was dubbed indras arrow
> ...


Couldn't have said it better, from strawman to strawman. He really does have Kaguya level chakra tho. So this is how he wins, by simply outlasting the opposing force...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> Then what exactly happened?! I strike that, dont care to get into that with you but how does hashirama win? try and be reasonable now. Imagine im a neutral party who has just finished the manga and you're trying to convince me.


You don’t care to get into it cause your wrong

She’s was caught off guard by phasing 



Anyway outlasting Kakashi time limit for using Obito power would be how Hashirama wins.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> I don't think so, otherwise Kakashi would be physically weaker now.


Kakashi speed will be lower as far as physicall ability goes Sasuke strength wasn’t augmented (well maybe a bit by the Senjutsu of Hagaromo) he did everything with Speed and Susanoo


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Still doesn't look like blood to me, agree to disagree I guess.


What is it then?


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## Sufex (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Anyway outlasting Kakashi time limit for using Obito power would be how Hashirama wins.


You say this but how? How does he avoid kakashi just slicing him in half with an unavoidable kamui raikiri? phasing through all his attacks until he gets fucked, or just a head snipe?


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Kakashi speed will be lower as far as physicall ability goes Sasuke strength wasn’t augmented (well maybe a bit by the Senjutsu of Hagaromo) he did everything with Speed and Susanoo


No reason to think Kakashi would be slower.

*"he did everything with Speed"*
Which got amped the same way his physical capabilities got amped by hagoromo's chakra.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> You say this but how? How does he avoid kakashi just slicing him in half with an avoidable kamui raikiri? phasing through all his attacks until he gets fucked, or just a head snipe?


How does Hashirama avoid that against Obito or do you think he just looses to MS Obito too?


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> What is it then?


Dunno, looks like impact or rubble of some sorts, to me atleast.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> No reason to think Kakashi would be slower.
> 
> *"he did everything with Speed"*
> Which got amped the same way his physical capabilities got amped by hagoromo's chakra.


The entire series Sharingan has enhanced someone’s speed by augmenting their reaction time


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Dunno, looks like impact or rubble of some sorts, to me atleast.


Rubble from what; they were mid air. Come in Bruv you can’t even admit your wrong about this and you guys complain about me sigh...


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> The entire series Sharingan has enhanced someone’s speed by augmenting their reaction time


Reaction time =/ Speed


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Reaction time =/ Speed


Yes it does as it allows the person to attack and evade at a higher level we saw this with Choke Tome allow Sasuke to keep up with Juubito


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Rubble from what; they were mid air. Come in Bruv you can’t even admit your wrong about this and you guys complain about me sigh...


 
So the things I circled are not rubble? Come on Bruh.


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## Zembie (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yes it does as it allows the person to attack and evade at a higher level we saw this with Choke Tome allow Sasuke to keep up with Juubito


Nope, you're wrong again Turrin. When Sasuke and Rock Lee fought, Sasuke could follow him with his sharingan, but couldn't move fast enough to dodge or defend himself.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> So the things I circled are not rubble? Come on Bruh.


They are from Madara horn also note how they are different then what I circled 

So I’m glad we established what I circled is different then that, so what is it but blood


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Nope, you're wrong again Turrin. When Sasuke and Rock Lee fought, Sasuke could follow him with his sharingan, but couldn't move fast enough to dodge or defend himself.


That just means Sharingsn didn’t augment his reaction time enough. It wa a form eons off of what he had in the war


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## Sufex (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> How does Hashirama avoid that against Obito or do you think he just looses to MS Obito too?


Okay so you had no real answer to prove your bullshit claim so instead decided to make the fallacious and ridiculous comparison of rikudo powered DMS kakashi to regular MS obito. Thats all i needed.


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> They are from Madara horn also note how they are different then what I circled
> 
> So I’m glad we established what I circled is different then that, so what is it but blood


Naruto did not hit Madara's horn in this exchange...


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## Zembie (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> They are from Madara horn also note how they are different then what I circled
> 
> So I’m glad we established what I circled is different then that, so what is it but blood


Didn't Madara break Naruto's Truthseeking staff? Looks nothing like blood.


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Didn't Madara break Naruto's Truthseeking staff? Looks nothing like blood.


Oh thanks, I completely forgot about that.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> Okay so you had no real answer to prove your bullshit claim so instead decided to make the fallacious and ridiculous comparison of rikudo powered DMS kakashi to regular MS obito. Thats all i needed.


I asked you one question which you clearly refused to answer 

My answer is that Hashirama could create clones and throw Mokuton shit at Kakashi to stall him out


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## Sufex (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Couldn't have said it better, from strawman to strawman. He really does have Kaguya level chakra tho. So this is how he wins, by simply outlasting the opposing force...


Maybe hashirama outlasting god tiers is a meta commentary on how he can outlast several other posters with better arguments to get a 'win'


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Didn't Madara break Naruto's Truthseeking staff? Looks nothing like blood.


The truth seeking staff if liquid now?
Which also happens prior to Naruto being hit


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## Zembie (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> The truth seeking staff if liquid now?


Doesn't look like liquid at all, but to each his own.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> Maybe hashirama outlasting god tiers is a meta commentary on how he can outlast several other posters with better arguments to get a 'win'


Always funny when people proclaim their own argument is better. And seem to believe that the opposing side wouldnt claim the same


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> Maybe hashirama outlasting god tiers is a meta commentary on how he can outlast several other posters with better arguments to get a 'win'



Wow, never thought about it that way.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Doesn't look like liquid at all, but to each his own.


Wow the dishonesty


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## Zembie (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Wow the dishonesty


Can't really call it dishonesty when I think it doesn't look like blood. Grow a backbone.


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Wow the dishonesty


Lmao it doesn't even look liquid...


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Can't really call it dishonesty when I think it doesn't look like blood. Grow a backbone.


Yeah I can


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## Trojan (Apr 6, 2019)




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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 6, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


>


So wait, Turrin just said Hashirama can hold his own against a guy WHO COULD MOVE THE MOON AN CUT IT IN HALF? ...seriously what the hell happened to him?


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## Zembie (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yeah I can


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## Zembie (Apr 6, 2019)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> So wait, Turrin just said Hashirama can hold his own against a guy WHO COULD MOVE THE MOON AN CUT IT IN HALF? ...seriously what the hell happened to him?


He probably hurt his head somewhere.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Lmao it doesn't even look liquid...




That is identical to this:




That is how blood is drawn

Ether admit it or I know your just trolling now


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## Zembie (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> That is identical to this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay then, since this is how blood looks like then I guess it is, still changes nothing.


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> That is identical to this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah okay they look similar enough, I will take your word for it.


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## Trojan (Apr 6, 2019)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> So wait, Turrin just said Hashirama can hold his own against a guy WHO COULD MOVE THE MOON AN CUT IT IN HALF? ...seriously what the hell happened to him?


he probably wants attention.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Okay then, since this is how blood looks like then I guess it is, still changes nothing.


I agree it doesn’t win the argument but it at least shows you guys can admit you were wrong kudos


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> So wait, Turrin just said Hashirama can hold his own against a guy WHO COULD MOVE THE MOON AN CUT IT IN HALF? ...seriously what the hell happened to him?


I don't know if he was better before, but looking at him now...


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## Sufex (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Always funny when people proclaim their own argument is better. And seem to believe that the opposing side wouldnt claim the same



>Senju have sage chakara
>Hashirama beats toneri
>Ashura and Indras clash must have identical strength to sauskes and narutos because saskues attack is named after him


*>Senju have sage chakara*


>Senju have sage chakara


*Spoiler*: __ 



*>Senju have sage chakara*





good arguments brah


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Anyway I’m out

As far as I can


FoboBemo said:


> >Senju have sage chakara
> >Hashirama beats toneri
> >Ashura and Indras clash must have identical strength to sauskes and narutos because saskues attack is named after him
> 
> ...


wow look it’s the buthurt emoji again with no real argument


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> >Senju have sage chakara
> >Hashirama beats toneri
> >Ashura and Indras clash must have identical strength to sauskes and narutos because saskues attack is named after him
> 
> ...


Hey come on there is a senju that *DOES *have _SAGE_ chakra.


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## Sufex (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Hey come on there is a senju that *DOES *have _SAGE_ chakra.




Holy fuck, this also means Minato, jiraya and kabuto were rikudo powered


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> Holy fuck, this also means Minato, jiraya and kabuto were rikudo powered


@Hussain would be really happy with the Minato part


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Anyway I’m out
> 
> As far as I can


Even the man with *GODLY *stamina could not hold out that long.

I'm done as well, I guess...


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## Sufex (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Even the man with *GODLY *stamina could not hold out that long.
> 
> I'm done as well, I guess...


Now *You *are the god tier.


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## Trojan (Apr 6, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> @Hussain would be really happy with the Minato part


Not really. 
I did not like that Naruto got his power either tbh... 

looks so cheap


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Anyway I’m out

Nothing I’ve seen here really changes my mind

As I’ve said before

1 Rinnegan Madara or 1 Rinngan Juubito vs RSM Naruto is debatable, and those 3 are stronger then Hashirama but aren’t enormously stronge enough for me to believe they are a separate tier then Hashirama ether, unless you have very narrow tiers.


Characters don’t start to get enormously stronger until we get into the 3 Eye Juuni Jin’s and aliens who are also way stronger then RSM Naruto


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Not really.
> I did not like that Naruto got his power either tbh...
> 
> looks so cheap


War arc, what can I tell you...


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Anyway I’m out
> 
> Nothing I’ve seen here really changes my mind
> 
> ...


I disagree, but sure... whatever makes you sleep at night


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Anyway I’m out
> 
> Nothing I’ve seen here really changes my mind
> 
> ...


Your wanking of Hashirama has damaged everything you do in debates now. You literally ignore feats, say 'hurr durr Hashirama wasn't at full power as an Edo Tensei thus his inferiority against Juubito doesn't really count', and continuously put him on a level which fanboys put him on. RSM Naruto, 1 Rinnegan Juubi Jin Madara or Juubito are enormously stronger than Hashirama. Even the Deity Gates were shattered JUST by Mindless Obito's Chakra Arms. Turrin, you've not only lost the debate, you've lost all credibility you had. Your arguments are just plain bad now.


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## Serene Grace (Apr 6, 2019)

What confuses me is how most of his avatars are of Naruto, yet thinks Hashirama is on the level of rsm naruto, naruto only surpassed minato with rsm and Hebi Sasuke = SM Naruto


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> What confuses me is how most of his avatars are of Naruto, yet thinks Hashirama is on the level of rsm naruto, naruto only surpassed minato with rsm and Hebi Sasuke = SM Naruto


YEAH THAT'S THE MOST OFF-PUTTING PART, YOU EXPECT FOR HIM TO BE A NARUTO FAN (maybe even wank him to a degree) and then *BAM!* You get all of...this...


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Your wanking of Hashirama has damaged everything you do in debates now. You literally ignore feats, say 'hurr durr Hashirama wasn't at full power as an Edo Tensei thus his inferiority against Juubito doesn't really count', and continuously put him on a level which fanboys put him on. RSM Naruto, 1 Rinnegan Juubi Jin Madara or Juubito are enormously stronger than Hashirama. Even the Deity Gates were shattered JUST by Mindless Obito's Chakra Arms. Turrin, you've not only lost the debate, you've lost all credibility you had. Your arguments are just plain bad now.


And your losing credibility in my eyes by immediately resorting to personal attacks and straw man like these rather then discussing the points with me. It’s sad that the moment we disagree on some topics you become like the this when we used to have solid discussions back in the day.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> What confuses me is how most of his avatars are of Naruto, yet thinks Hashirama is on the level of rsm naruto, naruto only surpassed minato with rsm and Hebi Sasuke = SM Naruto


I’m not a fan of a character based on Power....

Reactions: Like 1


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## Grinningfox (Apr 6, 2019)

Sigh

I don’t know what to make of this thread


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 6, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> Sigh
> 
> I don’t know what to make of this thread


You don't have to make anything


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## Hi no Ishi (Apr 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I already answered this 2 posts ago:
> 
> Or to clarify it again, the markings appear on the BM avatar to show that Naruto is adding his Sage Chakra to the Avatar. Just like Sasuke adds Juugo Senjutsu to his Susanoo is indicated by the Curse Mark.
> 
> ...



You certainly did not answer this question or several others, as you well know.

*Spoiler*: _2 previous Posts ._ 






Turrin said:


> This is incorrect. It would only be x10 Kurama if Naruto was counter balancing Yang Kyuubi chakra against natural energy. But we know he isn’t doing that here as Yang Kyuubi chakra is so greater that even 1/4 was enough to counter balance all the natural energy in the world when fighting against Sasuke.
> 
> So in BSM it’s Naruto using his Base Chakra to mold Sage Chakra and as such it’s x10 Narutos Base
> 
> ...





Turrin said:


> @Hi no Ishi
> 
> Naruto saying that the two powers are syncd doesn’t support your premise. If you are syncing two things it means they are separate and then being combined. So as I said Naruto is entering SM with his Base reserves and then syncing it with his BM; rather then entering SM with his BM chakra, which wouldn’t require syncing anything.
> 
> ...







Do you see you never once answering my question about the markings on his Avatars eyes? Or even mentioning them?

I did.

Do you think that's the only thing you ignored?
You shouldn't.

And then to have the gall to try to call me out for not responding to a post while having half of what I say ignored repeatedly?
Why would anyone do that? 
Better yet why would I keep responding in good faith to each of your points specifically when you don't do the same for others?


Anywho. If you can see that the avatar made of their chakra is clearly in Sage Mode then he is in Sage Mode. Simple.

Same reason Sasuke's Senjutsu Susano'o is clearly his Susano'o in his cursed seal state like they tell us.


KCM Naruto who does not have his chakra melded with Kurama like BM Naruto does. He uses a separate pool.
Those are completely different situations as you well know so that point also just falls flat.
KCM=/=BM, and you have already seen several characters recognize that their chakra is mixed, not seperate in BM as opposed to people not recognizing his chakra at all in KCM

There is 0 evidence that it's his base chakra (which doesn't really exist in this form)  moulding senjutsu alone and his Kurama Chakra Avatar clearly is in Sage Mode as shown by the marks on his eyes.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> You certainly did not answer this question or several others, as you well know.
> 
> *Spoiler*: _2 previous Posts ._
> 
> ...


This is from my second response to you in this thread, where I address the markings:



Turrin said:


> This is the same thing that Sasuke did with CS and Susanoo; he took the CS chakra generated from Juugo and syncd it with his Susanoo. This caused a visible change in Susanoo form (CS Mark), just like we see a visible change in the BM avatar, but it’s two distinct powers




2. BM gaining markings just shows that Naruto is adding his Toad SM to BM; not that he is balancing kyuubi chakra against natural energy; if you want the evidence I will point you to my third post which you have now ignored twice...

3. Naruto Chakra in BM isn’t completely mixed with the Kyuubi they are still largely separate albeit they can be mixed if Naruto choose it:


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 7, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Munboy I literally said I’m not trying to rank those characters only show that they are above RSM Naruto which refers to VOTE Naruto
> 
> 2. There is no way you have a mountain of evidence that Indra and Asura are weaker when we only have 1 panel of them using their abilities. Otherwise please show me this evidence...
> 
> ...



Reserving this post; I'll reply when I get more time.


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