# Tier List Discussion Thread



## Sadgoob (Sep 13, 2012)

By popular  from the last thread, a new process will be attempted from scratch. In the initial stages, the tiers will be very broad *S*, *A*, *B*, *C*, *D*, and *E*, but will be subdivided later. This means that *A+* and *A-* ninja will initially be on one tier.

In the previous thread, we voted for represenatives for each broad tier that were made explicit in the manga to calibrate our opinions, and please remember that we aim to weigh portrayal more than feats. *Note:* the tiers' individuals are ordered by character length.

*S+*
Rinnegan Obito (with Pain)
Bijū Mode Naruto
Edo Madara 

*S*
Mangekyō Sasuke (Danzō Fight)
Edo Nagato
Killer Bee
Minato
Itachi

*A*
Orochimaru
Tsunade
Jiraiya
A

*B*
Part I Kakashi
Part I Kabuto
Jūgo

*C*
Kidōmaru
Tayuya
Jirōbō
Aoba
Anko

*D*
Mizuki
Iruka
Ebisu

*E*
Part I Sakura
Rin
Kin

Lastly we are implementing a different voting  and will require at least a few sentences of reasoning for each vote cast. So without further hubbub, we may begin discussing any *two* ninja at one time, and I'll edit in the results here as we progress. 

*CURRENT DISCUSSION:* 

Asuma, Ōnoki, Sage Naruto (Pain Fight)
​


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## Punished Pathos (Sep 13, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> Alright, by popular  from the last thread, a new process will be attempted. In the initial stages, the tiers will be very broad S, A, B, C, D, and E, but will be subdivided later into S+, S, S-, A+, A, A-, and so on and so forth. This means that A+ and A- ninja will initiailly be in the same tier despite otherwise being two tiers apart.
> 
> In the previous thread, we have agreed on poster boys for each broad tier that were explicitly portrayed in the manga to clalibrate our opinions, and it's *very* important to keep in mind that in this thread, we are aiming to weigh general portrayal heavier than a hypothetical clash of feats, unlike in typical Battledomes.
> 
> ...



Corrections were made.


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## ovanz (Sep 13, 2012)

S = Minato / Naruto 

A = Danzo / Jiraiya

Current kabuto could be S or A.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 13, 2012)

Alright, so based on those responses we'll discuss *Sasuke* and *Minato* specifically for the time being. Please feel free to make any argument for their placement.​


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## Alex Payne (Sep 13, 2012)

Why a different thread? Starting from scratch?


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## Sniffers (Sep 13, 2012)

Perhaps it's a good idea to specify that the "_Naruto_" listed is "_BM Naruto?_" At least I take it it's that one?


Discussing Sasuke is fine, although I think his EMS incarnation hasn't gotten a proper showing/hyping just yet. I'm fine with ranking his previous incarnations or other characters though.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 13, 2012)

Good stuff, Alex and Sniffers. I edited the OP.


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## hitokugutsu (Sep 13, 2012)

*Minato S tier*
Dont think he needs much discussion atm. Obviously above A tier people, yet not on S+ level. Story wise he was Naruto's benchmark for KCM (als S tier btw)


*Mangekyou Sasuke* *S tier*
If we take account the Sasuke we saw in battle vs Danzo then he would be roughly A tier
*However* he hadnt fully mastered MS back then. Only vs Kakashi did he fully master MS, but he was exhausted and nearly blind. 
*Note Sasuke was not fully blind vs Kakashi, but he had the same level of blindness that Itachi had when he faced Sasuke. Sasuke was drained from battle before and had little to no chakra*

Anyway, from what EMS Sasuke has shown sofar (Ama sword + Ama Yasaka) its most likely fully mastered MS Sasuke could also pull that stuff, since his Susanoo did show the Ama orb. And we didnt get the see his other weapons potential back then

*So based on the potential I would rank a fully mastered MS Sasuke S tier*

Some would argue this is unfair since Sasuke never showed those abilties I mentioned, its the same for "prime Hiruzen". Based on wat Sasuke showed vs Danzo and the powers (and haxx ) he would have attained with a fully mastered MS I rank him S tier.


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## Ptolemy (Sep 13, 2012)

I'm not sure whether Mangekyo Sasuke deserves an A tier or S tier rank. Hebi Sasuke managed to overpower a dying Orochimaru (A rank), and it was portrayed that A (another A tier) vs MS Sasuke would have been a double knockout when Sasuke was a newbie with his new powers - he clearly advanced by the time he finished by fighting with Danzo.

Yet in Sasuke's latest showing he wasn't nearly as impressive as Itachi (S rank) despite the fact he wasn't in pain or going blind. With that being said didn't Sage Naruto admit inferiority to MS Sasuke? Besides Orochimaru admitted inferiority to the current Sasuke who hasn't shown anything that MS Sasuke couldn't do - he just has better eyesight and more stamina as far as I can tell.

Thinking about it, I think there's enough to justify MS Sasuke as S rank.

As for Minato, he deserves an S rank. He was clearly portrayed to be above the Raikage (A tier) in his latest flashback. His hype is pretty phenomenal too.

I'll cast my 'official votes' later though.


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## Sniffers (Sep 13, 2012)

Not entirely sure, but the concept was to vote and provide a reasoning?

*Reasoning: Minato*
As the primary benchmark of the main character Minato should only really be below the end-game Naruto and Sasuke as well as the last final villain(s) IMO. That puts him in a tier below the top one (S+). Additionally, Minato was hyped as greater than both A and Orochimaru who reside in the A-tier so that is further support for placement in the S-tier. 

*Reasoning: MS Sasuke*
This is a tough one. MS Sasuke did well against (Raikage) A with an incomplete Susano so he should be higher than that. Besides, even a drained MS Sasuke made Kakashi resort to MS almost immediately. In my mind _that_ Kakashi easily belongs in the A-tier along A and Tsunade. Finally, the consideration that MS Sasuke's equivalent (KCM Naruto imo) did rather well against Edo Nagato until the latter did a surprise attack makes me say he fits in the S-tier, albeit just barely.




*VOTE: Minato*
*S+:*
*S:* Sniffers, hitokugutsu [2]
*A:*
*B:*
*C:*
*D:*
*E:*

*VOTE: MS Sasuke*
*S+:*
*S:* Sniffers, hitokugutsu [2]
*A:*
*B:*
*C:*
*D:*
*E:*


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## Dr. White (Sep 13, 2012)

*Minato S Tier* He has the best spped in the manga due to his amazing base speed, and the instant Hirashin, he has devastating Rasengan,summon and a whole lot a fuinjutsu. No one in the A tier has a shot and the S's should be right where he is at. Portrayed to be KCM's benchmark so that is where I think he should placed.

*MS Sasuke S Tier*
Ms Sasuke had amazing fihgting ability, he dodged a deadly combo from Bee's swords, and has access to amazing powers such as Ama, Tsukuyomi, and Susano. He is much less experienced than his brother, and this version of Sasuke had lost most of his exteme great tactical attriubutes. I was bordering on the A tier, but his mastery in such a short time will lend him the S ranking


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## Octavian (Sep 13, 2012)

minato's hype and character portrayal is only behind all time legends like hashirama, madara, RS. most of the forum would agree that minato and itachi are kishi's two most favored characters based on their sheer portrayal. moreover, his impressive feats like warping away kyuubi and its bijuudamas coupled with the relatively little panel time he's gotten makes me think he's comfortably S tier.

MS sasuke is a tricky one. we didn't get to see him at full potential owning to the relatively swift deterioration of his Mangekyo. i think a fully realized MS sasuke would be S tier, especially considering Kirabi is there.


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## Alex Payne (Sep 13, 2012)

*Minato - S*

This one is obvious. One of the best hype and portrayal. But not quite S+ because Current Naruto is supposed to be somewhat above him, Obito was portrayed as someone close to Minato's overall level and he got a big boost after that and Madara currently is the most overpowered character + insane battle achievements. 

*MS Sasuke - A*

Very hard to place this one. He can go to S- or A+ imo. His fight against Killer B wasn't conclusive, his fight against Raikage was the same. He was several times compared to Itachi(different aspects) but Itachi was still somewhat ahead of him/it looked like Sasuke was still catching up. Imo - Sasuke was still closer to people like Orochimaru and Raikage than to Itachi and Killer B. So for now it is A. I will read other votes and maybe change mine later.


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## shintebukuro (Sep 13, 2012)

Strat, you need to edit in and highlight the process through which people should be making judgment calls.

No hypothetical battles, and no arbitrary feats. Every vote must contain reasoning to be counted, and that reasoning must be from the _story_.

You also should remove Itachi as a poster boy for the S tier. We don't want to turn people away from this thread in fear that bias is playing any part.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 13, 2012)

Alex's vote does present an interesting predicament about Mangekyō Sasuke. Unlike almost any other character, Mangekyō Sasuke progressed very linearly. Even when Naruto learned Sage Mode or when Sasuke gained the White Snake, their mastery of those abilities came very quickly. But not so for Mangekyō Sasuke. Against Killer Bee, he didn't really have access to any special Mangekyō technique until the very end, and against the Raikage, his Susano'o was practically the fetus version of the real thing. So while the Sasuke that fought Killer Bee and the Sasuke that fought Danzō both were Mangekyō Sasuke, their power differs rather drastically, and I'm not sure whether it may be wise to subdivide Sasuke further, or stick with his strongest incarnation with the Mangekyō jutsu, which would be his showing against Kabuto in my opinion. I foresee this being a similar problem with Naruto's Sage mode that, while highly advanced against Pain, was practically nothing to the feats he would use against Kurama.​


shintebukuro said:


> Strat, you need to edit in and highlight the process through which people should be making judgment calls.
> 
> No hypothetical battles, and no arbitrary feats. Every vote must contain reasoning to be counted, and that reasoning must be from the _story_.
> 
> You also should remove Itachi as a poster boy for the S tier. We don't want to turn people away from this thread in fear that bias is playing any part.



I made that all more clear in the original post. I don't think removing Itachi is necessary though, and the vast majority of voters already agreed on the tier represenatives. Itachi was very explicitly portrayed to be a tier higher than Orochimaru and that made him a fundamental represenative due to the explicitly linear relationship between Itachi, Orochimaru, and part I Kakashi. However, just to be safe, I revised him to Edo Itachi, and I doubt _anybody_ would argue that Edo Itachi should be equal to Orochimaru or below Killer Bee given his portrayal in the story and bolstered stamina and durability. However, if more people have a problem with him being positioned prematurely, I'll remove him, but my compulsiveness would demand a replacement to keep the rule of three.​


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## shintebukuro (Sep 13, 2012)

I'd personally suggest using a picture to denote what we would like to be discussed. On one hand, it will show the exact "form" of what we're thinking about, and on the other, it will remind people who that character _is_ (and I mean that figuratively).


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## Sadgoob (Sep 13, 2012)

Also a very good idea, I'll get right on that.


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## Alex Payne (Sep 13, 2012)

It might be better to specify the Arc/time. I.e. Naruto(Pain arc) and Sasuke(against Danzo). Or something. 

As for the "story/portrayal-only" placement. Battles are part of the story. I can't simply ignore who were chosen to be Sasuke's opponents - chosen by the author. Same dude who makes direct comparisons and creates hype. I got that in this Tier List portrayal/hype goes first but Sasuke didn't get a proper hype. He was thrown right into battles where he received several comparisons and his opponents got several comparisons/parallels. And those battles were inconclusive/very close so everyone is free to form their own opinions. Imo!


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## Samehada (Sep 13, 2012)

alex payne said:


> *Minato - S*
> 
> This one is obvious. One of the best hype and portrayal. But not quite S+ because Current Naruto is supposed to be somewhat above him, Obito was portrayed as someone close to Minato's overall level and he got a big boost after that and Madara currently is the most overpowered character + insane battle achievements.
> 
> ...



I am agreeing with this post and place the same votes and reasoning.

MS Sasuke does have his achievements, but he still had some difficulty with the A and Mei. Plus, we need room for EMS Sasuke in S-rank (which I am sure will happen).


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## Ptolemy (Sep 13, 2012)

@ Alex Payne, I think what your saying isn't against what we are trying to do. Basically, that statement is just encouraging thoughts about portrayal and how the story emphasis power levels than rather than thinking in a battledome-esque way and seeing whose feats are superior to others.


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## shintebukuro (Sep 13, 2012)

alex payne said:
			
		

> As for the "story/portrayal-only" placement. Battles are part of the story. I can't simply ignore who were chosen to be Sasuke's opponents - chosen by the author.



Battles are _absolutely_ included. They are probably the most important measure we have.

What we mean is that you shouldn't judge by saying "Well, Raikage is really fast, so I think he'd probably beat Oonoki." Every judgment should be directly made from a comparison in the actual story.


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## Sniffers (Sep 13, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> I made that all more clear in the original post. I don't think removing Itachi is necessary though, and the vast majority of voters already agreed on the tier represenatives. Itachi was very explicitly portrayed to be a tier higher than Orochimaru and that made him a fundamental represenative due to the explicitly linear relationship between Itachi, Orochimaru, and part I Kakashi.​


Honestly, I agree, although shintebukuro has a point. This way Itachi being greater than Orochimaru is set in stone and there are posters who disagree with that. It may be best to remove Itachi entirely as a posterboy.

Minato may be a substitute, since most of the current voters put him there anyway and Sarutobi hyped him as greater than Orochimaru as well. Therefore it is in line with your reasoning for using Itachi. We may need to go through the voting of accepting these posterboy changes though.



As for the "_what is MS Sasuke_" question, I'd say we should see it as how the main characters have progressed. For example, we have FRS Naruto who beat Kakazu in one arc. SM Naruto being the Naruto from the Pain invasion arc and KCM Naruto (who sometimes uses SM) in the war arc. MS Sasuke ceased to exist the moment he implanted Itachi's eyes.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 13, 2012)

Yeah, I think portrayal-only is harsher than what is intended. The aim to merely to weigh portrayal more than feats, if that makes sense, which is pretty different from the usual logic in Battledomes.​
Alright, so Edo Itachi will removed, but he needs a substitute, and I'd rather not use Minato since he's already being voted on. So aside from Nagato, Killer Bee, Edo Itachi, and Minato, who is a good represenative for the broad S-tier, above Orochimaru and A?​


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## Ptolemy (Sep 13, 2012)

With Itachi perhaps it will be best to see if he is controversial or not before changing the list. The only character I think Itachi would cause a shitstorm ranking is Jiraiya, for obvious reasons. Besides by having on the initial list you avoid the shitstorm of having to decide where to place him later.


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## Octavian (Sep 13, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> Alright, so Edo Itachi will removed, but he needs a substitute, and I'd rather not use Minato since he's already being voted on. So aside from Nagato, Killer Bee, Edo Itachi, and Minato, who is a good represenative for the broad S-tier, above Orochimaru and A?​



tbh i think nagato is a solid representation of S tier. very, very few would argue that he belongs either S+ or A. killer bee is more in the region between S tier and A tier. kind of like ms sasuke IMO. 

for itachi, i would suggest just voting on him like we're voting on minato. in my mind, both are S tier but lets see what everyone thinks.


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## ueharakk (Sep 13, 2012)

I think more clarity should be brought upon Rinnegan Tobi and Nagato.  

For Tobi, it is crucial to specify if he has his full arsenal with him which includes the war fan, edo jinks and gedo mazou, or if it is just Tobi.

Nagato as well, is it edo nagato, living nagato, crippled nagato, does he get his peins and can he use gedo mazou?

As for the placements:

I would place Minato in the bottom of the S tier and Place MS Sasuke at the top of the A tier.


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## Alex Payne (Sep 13, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Battles are _absolutely_ included. They are probably the most important measure we have.
> 
> What we mean is that you shouldn't judge by saying "Well, Raikage is really fast, so I think he'd probably beat Oonoki." Every judgment should be directly made from a comparison in the actual story.



My vote didn't use any of that  Sasuke was/is compared to Itachi and Orochimaru, fought against Killer B and Raikage. I tried to place him based only on those. Dunno what to do with him vs Danzo, he isn't present yet and he didn't get his own fair share of hype/comparisons.


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## Yakkai (Sep 13, 2012)

Tier Power Inflation - Naruto, Sasuke, Obito, Madara

Tier Fodder - everyone else


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## Samehada (Sep 13, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> Alright, so Edo Itachi will removed, but he needs a substitute, and I'd rather not use Minato since he's already being voted on. So aside from Nagato, Killer Bee, Edo Itachi, and Minato, who is a good represenative for the broad S-tier, above Orochimaru and A?​



Considering Kakashi's sudden increase in Kamui usage, chakra output, and overall Kamui development. Few can argue that he is S- tier.

Honestly though, S tier will be pretty small. I cant think of anyone other than those you have stated to be part of S tier. Possibly Oonoki, considering his atomic ninjutsu. That shit can be incredibly one-shot/hax. Sadly though, he never seems to hit anyone with it 
- Example: Oonoki v Sasuke. Almost destroyed the kid if Tobi didn't intervene.


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## Sniffers (Sep 13, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> Alright, so Edo Itachi will removed, but he needs a substitute, and I'd rather not use Minato since he's already being voted on. So aside from Nagato, Killer Bee, Edo Itachi, and Minato, who is a good represenative for the broad S-tier, above Orochimaru and A?​


Leave it empty then. We'd need an entirely new round of votes to determine that. Besides, two posterboys is enough, especially when the tier is about to get one or two extra people.

I'll edit my reasoning for my vote to accommodate this


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## Alex Payne (Sep 13, 2012)

Oh shit, yet another Itachi-vote in the future. Delicious flame-wars. Hype-wise Sarutobi, White Fang or Hanzo _might_ be used... but I am unsure.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 13, 2012)

I'll just remove Itachi. However, everybody, please use the below voting system. In the future, votes may be disregarded if you do not, as there may be nobody willing to add your name to the ballot.

Now that you know though, if new individuals come to thread and do not know, like yourselves before now, I'd really appreciate you reminding them and showing them how to do it. Thanks!

*edit:* I'm also going to implement Alex Payne's suggestion, and specify that this is Mangekyō Sasuke with the degree of mastery shown in the latter half of the Danzō Fight and against Kakashi. 

*VOTE: Minato*
S+:
*S:* Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Dr. White, Alex Payne, Samehada, Strategos [6]
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:

*VOTE: Mangekyō Sasuke (Danzō Fight)*
S+:
*S:* Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Dr. White, Strategos [4]
*A:* Alex Payne, Samehada [2]
B:
C:
D:
E:​


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## Ptolemy (Sep 13, 2012)

*VOTE: Minato*
S+:
S: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Dr. White, Alex Payne, Samehada, Strategos, Ptolemy [7]
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:

*VOTE: Mangekyō Sasuke (Danzō Fight)*
S+:
S: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Dr. White, Strategos, Ptolemy [5]
A: Alex Payne, Samehada [2]
B:
C:
D:
E:


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## Dr. White (Sep 13, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> Yeah, I think portrayal-only is harsher than what is intended. The aim to merely to weigh portrayal more than feats, if that makes sense, which is pretty different from the usual logic in Battledomes.​
> Alright, so Edo Itachi will removed, but he needs a substitute, and I'd rather not use Minato since he's already being voted on. So aside from Nagato, Killer Bee, Edo Itachi, and Minato, who is a good represenative for the broad S-tier, above Orochimaru and A?​



Nidaime Mizukage or Sandaime Raikage.


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## Ptolemy (Sep 13, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> Nidaime Mizukage or Sandaime Raikage.



Neither are those are good choice imo. Especially the raikage - he ultimately got defeated by a Naruto clone in sage mode.


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## Samehada (Sep 13, 2012)

Ptolemy said:


> Neither are those are good choice imo. Especially the raikage - he ultimately got defeated by a Naruto clone in sage mode.



His greatest weapon is also his greatest weakness. Naruto proved that one.

TrollKage needs to be at the same tier as Muu imo. So if you want to put TrollKage on S rank, put Muu on that as well. Of course, Muu isn't S tier so neither should the Mizukage.


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## ceralux (Sep 13, 2012)

Minato should be placed in S for obvious reasons. 

Honestly, if Kirābī is S tier, then MS Sasuke (Danzo) clearly has to be in the same tier. He may even be stronger than Bee. Amaterasu alone is enough to defeat B. Surely a final Susanoo would be overkill.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 13, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> Honestly, I agree, although shintebukuro has a point. This way Itachi being greater than Orochimaru is set in stone and there are posters who disagree with that. It may be best to remove Itachi entirely as a posterboy.



It's not set in stone, however. Itachi has never faced a 100% Orochimaru with killing intent, Orochimaru has also been receiving greater hype as of late; he's actually been deemed a threat to _EMS_ Sasuke. 

Itachi and Orochimaru should not be used as poster boys and should actually be given separate discussions, until then more neutral characters can be used as poster boys.


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## Turrin (Sep 13, 2012)

You guys are placing Killer B in the same tier with Edo Nagato. Edo Nagato easily defeated Killer B and KCM Naruto at the same time. Hell it took KCM Naruto, Itachi, and Killer B all using their strongest long range Jutsu to overcome Edo Nagato's offensive might and expose an opening for Itachi to use his strongest Jutsu to seal Edo Nagato. 

There is the idea of making tiers broad, to reflect things like type match up and conditions of battle, but than there is making the tiers so broad (like in this case) they becoming meaningless. Not to mention on one hand the tiers are being represented as so broad that B is placed in the same Tier with Edo Nagato, yet Orochimaru does not make the same tier despite inventing multiple S-Rank Kinjutsu & being able to summon 3 undead legendary ninja to fight alongside him. 

Just my thoughts here.


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## Ptolemy (Sep 13, 2012)

Orochimaru by his own confession noted Itachi to be superior to him.  

@ Turrin - You are arguing tiers are being too broad by using Nagato and noting the big differences between him and other characters as an example, pointing out that it basically took Itachi, plus Kirabi and Naruto to defeat him. Then you are arguing for Orochimaru to be in that tier, even though he has been defeated by Itachi alone multiple times.

That makes no sense Turrin. You are contradicting your own point methinks. I can understand about the tiers being too broad, but that's why we are going to specify later.


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## Phoenix Zoro (Sep 13, 2012)

Minato is a certain S tier alongside Killerbee and Nagato for sure. 

MS Sauce was pretty similar to A imo, I'd put him near the top of A tier, EMS Sauce would be S tier.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 13, 2012)

Turrin said:


> You guys are placing Killer B in the same tier with Edo Nagato. Edo Nagato easily defeated Killer B and KCM Naruto at the same time. Hell it took KCM Naruto, Itachi, and Killer B all using their strongest long range Jutsu to overcome Edo Nagato's offensive might and expose an opening for Itachi to use his strongest Jutsu to seal Edo Nagato.
> 
> There is the idea of making tiers broad, to reflect things like type match up and conditions of battle, but than there is making the tiers so broad (like in this case) they becoming meaningless. Not to mention on one hand the tiers are being represented as so broad that B is placed in the same Tier with Edo Nagato, yet Orochimaru does not make the same tier despite inventing multiple S-Rank Kinjutsu & being able to summon 3 undead legendary ninja to fight alongside him.
> 
> Just my thoughts here.



I was thinking the same thing, people are overestimating Bee by placing him in the same tier as Nagato. Few characters are similar to Nagato in power.

Also agreed on your assessment of Orochimaru.



Ptolemy said:


> Orochimaru by his own confession noted Itachi to be superior to him.
> 
> I'd rather leave Orochimaru as he is until he get's some new hype/feats to imply otherwise.



The context was that Orochimaru couldn't take over Itachi's body, that "confession" was also _after_ he lost the Senju bros. and his arms. Orochimaru later believed that he could in fact kill Itachi. 

Whatever you think of their comparative abilities which is debatable, Edo Tensei alone makes Orochimaru more powerful than Itachi, having possession of Hashirama and Madara, amongst others.


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## Turrin (Sep 13, 2012)

Ptolemy said:


> Orochimaru by his own confession noted Itachi to be superior to him.
> 
> I'd rather leave Orochimaru as he is until he get's some new hype/feats to imply otherwise.


Orochimaru is inferior to Itachi, but this shouldn't mean he's a Tier lower than Itachi. Why? Because look at who else is placed in S-Tier: Killer B. It was directly shown in the manga that Killer B is inferior to Edo Nagato, yet somehow this does not prevent Killer B from being S-Tier. Hell I'd argue the gap between Edo Nagato & B was portrayed as much more decisively larger than in the case of Itachi and Orochimaru. So why is Orochimaru penalized for this, but Killer B isn't. So that type of justification for Orochimaru to be on A-Tier does not make much sense at all.




Ptolemy said:


> @ Turrin - You are arguing tiers are being too broad by using Nagato and noting the big differences between him and other characters as an example, pointing out that it basically took Itachi, plus Kirabi and Naruto to defeat him. Then you are arguing for Orochimaru to be in that tier, even though he has been defeated by Itachi alone multiple times.
> 
> That makes no sense Turrin. You are contradicting your own point methinks. I can understand about the tiers being too broad, but that's why we are going to specify later.


Of course it makes no sense, that was my whole point, the way the tiers are set up contradict themselves. Essentially on one hand it's being said that the Tiers are broad enough to allow Killer B and Nagato to occupy the same Tier, but on the other hand it's too narrow to allow Orochimaru to be on the same Tier, is my point.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 13, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Orochimaru is inferior to Itachi, but this shouldn't mean he's a Tier lower than Itachi. Why? Because look at who else is placed in S-Tier: Killer B. It was directly shown in the manga that Killer B is inferior to Edo Nagato, yet somehow this does not prevent Killer B from being S-Tier. Hell I'd argue the gap between Edo Nagato & B was portrayed as much more decisively larger than in the case of Itachi and Orochimaru. So why is Orochimaru penalized for this, but Killer B isn't. So that type of justification for Orochimaru to be on A-Tier does not make much sense at all.



I have to agree again. There are going to be a lot of inconsistencies in the tiers, as such there already is and we've barely begun. People also have to understand that a character could lose to another character and not automatically be in a lower league; alternatively, a character could beat another character and not automatically be in a higher league.


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## Dr. White (Sep 13, 2012)

Bee was before Naruto the best jinchuriki alive, and had full control over his powers.

Bee was able to predict Minato would go for him and stalemate Minato, even to blondies praise.

Edo Nagato was jocking everyone who wasn't named Itachi, and both him and Itachi were Kabuto's silver and bronze. Just as well KCM Naruto was failing against Pein just as hard(failed to kill Cerberus, Got caught and absorbed, scared of CT) but do we rank him in A Tier as well? I don't think so, this is just broad tier right now, he could very well end up in the S- Tier but Bee is def not A Tier.

Orochimaru was dehyped in his prime by Itachi, the portrayal there was strong. Also despite Sasuke beating a weak Orochimaru the man was still planning to do it that very week, he obviously had the skills necessary to do it but Sasuke beat him out. Unlike Kabuto he lacks the Sage Mode and other jutsu that make him S Tier level. He will probably end up in the A+ Tier I would guess.

But I agree Tiers do not guarantee wins at all, just power levels. Of course no one from the D rank can touch anyone in the A rank and up and such.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 13, 2012)

Let's not lose focus. The discussion is for *Minato* and *Sasuke*, not Edo Itachi, Killer Bee, Orochimaru, or Edo Kages. Those individuals can be discussed next if enough people would like to review them, and due to enough sentiment, I'll placehold Killer Bee as well. 

People need to remember, however, that each letter tier will be divided into three sub-tiers, so there will be some notable variability in power at the outset and a large number of individuals in each tier, particularly the *A* and *B* tiers.

And Turrin, I'd be delighted to positively demolish your opinion that Orochimaru and Itachi belong in the same tier when the time comes, as practically nothing in the manga has been made more clear. But until then, please do not derail the current topic.​


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## Turrin (Sep 13, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> Bee was before Naruto the best jinchuriki alive, and had full control over his powers.
> 
> Edo Nagato was jocking everyone who wasn't named Itachi, and both him and Itachi were Kabuto's silver and bronze. Just as well KCM Naruto was failing against Pein just as hard(failed to kill Cerberus, Got caught and absorbed, scared of CT) but do we rank him in A Tier as well? I don't think so, this is just broad tier right now, he could very well end up in the S- Tier but Bee is def not A Tier.
> 
> ...


I think your missing the point. Edo Nagato had Killer B defeated easier than Itachi ever defeated Orochimaru. Yet they are placed in the same tier, however on the other hand Orochimaru is placed in an inferior Tier to Itachi. That makes no sense. 



> Bee was able to predict Minato would go for him and stalemate Minato, even to blondies praise.


B never "stalemated" Minato. 

Stalemate = "any position or situation in which no action can be taken"

But there was indeed an action for Minato take. He could just Teleport away and attempt a different type of attack. Therefore it is not a stalemate. All B did was managed to defend a single one of Minato's attacks. Individual Gokage have managed to defend a single 1 of Madara's attacks, yet they are no where close to Madara in strength. So to use B defending 1 of Minato's attacks to derive their respective "level" in comparison to one another is extremely faulty. 

A much better indicator of their "level" in comparison to one another is the fact that Killer B shivers in terror at the mention of Minato's name.



Strategoob said:


> Let's not lose focus. The discussion is for *Minato* and *Sasuke*, not Edo Itachi, Killer Bee, Orochimaru, or Edo Kages. Those individuals can be discussed next if enough people would like to review them, and due to enough sentiment, I'll remove Killer Bee as well. ​


In that case you should also take BM Naruto off of S+ Tier. There is no way that BM Naruto has shown himself to belong in the same Tier as Rinnegan Tobi or Edo Madara. BM Naruto has needed the help of Gai, Kakashi, Killer B, and the other 7 Bijuu just to land 2 blows that proved essentially ineffective against Rinnegan Obito. 



> And Turrin, I'd be delighted to positively demolish your opinion that Orochimaru and Itachi belong in the same tier when the time comes, as nothing in the manga has been made more clear, and I removed Itachi from the initial tier list for that exact reason. Until then, however, please do not derail the current topic.


It all depends on how broad you are going to make these Tiers. Considering the set up when I made my post where they were so broad that Edo Nagato and Killer B were on the same Tier, than there is no justification for Orochimaru not being on the same Tier as Itachi. If they are made much less broad than that, than there possibly can be an argument made. However considering the current formula of the Tiers where there is no + or - (Excluding S+), there is still no way you'll be able to justify Orochimaru being on a separate Tier to me.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 13, 2012)

Alright, so am I going to need to get a moderator to delete all off topic arguments right now, or can we put this on hold for 24 or so hours? We'll discuss Itachi and Killer Bee next, followed by Naruto and Orochimaru if enough people agree, which is a complete *appeasement* to *you*, given that you had *72 hours* to vote against the initial represenatives for each tier in the last thread, and the vote was an overwhelming majority. And please understand that, to an extent, there will be a variability in power, even in sub tiers.​


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## Turrin (Sep 13, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> Alright, so am I going to need to get a moderator to delete all off topic arguments right now, or can we put this on hold for 24 or so hours? We'll discuss Itachi and Killer Bee next.​


I don't think it's off topic, because according to your formula people are suppose to use the Tier representatives to place their vote for which Tier a character should be placed on. So discussing the representatives is how one formulates which Tier to vote a character to and I don't see how that is off topic.

Furthermore the Tier representatives are contradictory and confusing to follow. How does one know where to place Sasuke or Minato, under such confusing conditions. You really should put the placements on a 24 hour or more hold to figure out these Tier representatives better.


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## Ptolemy (Sep 13, 2012)

@ Turrin - Basically what Strategoob said. If you really want to discuss Orochimaru make a suggestion that we discuss him next and if it picks up force than we can discuss. We had lots of time to discuss the tier system list this time round, with a focus on being clear about what was going to happen and the agreement for the new tier list was unanimous. If you were unsatisfied why are you pointing it out just now?

Everyone has to note they are voting with the idea that the tiers are broad and there will be smaller tiers added later, and that should be clarified in the original post.


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## hitokugutsu (Sep 13, 2012)

Bee vs Minato is an unfair comparison, he was young back then

Bee is a perfect Jin now. In base form Bee >> V2 Raikage. Be is S tier Simple as that. As are KCM Naruto, (Edo) Itachi & Nagato. When those 4 battled that much was obvious



Also MS Sasuke...



*This* is the MS Sasuke we should be ranking. In fact everything he showed VS Kabuto also counts as do _current_ EMS Sasuke Amaterasu feats since there is little doubt that MS Sasuke also had those feats

Clear Amaterasu Orb in MS Sasuke Full Susanoo.


Also Strategoob, BM in the same tier as Edo Madara? There is definitely a tier difference between those 2 if not more
Currently Rinnegan Madara is gonna school BM Naruto & Hachibi both. They do not belong on the same tier. In fact Edo Madara is close to Rikudou level bar Juubi. Give the dude his own tier, Z tier or something


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## Sadgoob (Sep 13, 2012)

hitokogutsu, I'm confused,  you voted that BM Naruto being in the same tier as Edo Madara was acceptable. Nevertheless, I'll placehold Naruto since enough people seem to want it to be so. And as for Sasuke using those feats, I think that because we're using manga portrayal, that we should stick to the timeframe and not hypothetical capability. At the time Sasuke was "Mangekyō Sasuke" he never actually used his Amaterasu orb, but more on point perhaps, this Mangekyō Sasuke will have a parenthetical that specifies it is the Danzō incarnation.​


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## hitokugutsu (Sep 13, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> hitokogutsu, I'm confused,  you voted that BM Naruto being in the same tier as Edo Madara was acceptable.​



Well my bad then. 

Tbh I skimmed trough yours and Ptolemy broad tier list back then. Didnt look into at detail since they were "broad" tier list anyway

But I still stand by my opinion that Edo Madara should get a Z tier. of course my word has little value now, so just wait a week or 2 (2 chapters of Madara in action vs Hachibi & Kyuubi) and I'm pretty sure everybody else will agree that Edo Madara > BM Naruto by far

I guess you could leave it for now 


Edit: holy fuck Edit Strategoob strikes again


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## Ptolemy (Sep 13, 2012)

@Strategoob - Alternatively, we could re-open and resticky the original thread specifically for criticisms, suggestions and such. Apparently we need one thread for the tier list and one thread to _discuss the tier list_.


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## Octavian (Sep 13, 2012)

i think its wiser to move madara into a Z tier for the moment. because rinnegan tobi and bm naruto are definitely superior to the people in the S tier, even if portrayal is included. 

although in retrospect, i think naruto and the sauce are bound for Z tier anyway in the next 25-50 or so chapters


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## Turrin (Sep 13, 2012)

Ptolemy said:


> Everyone has to note they are voting with the idea that the tiers are broad and there will be smaller tiers added later, and that should be clarified in the original post.


The Problem is there is no sense of how broad the Tiers actually are and representatives further confuse the issue for me. Which is important in deciding which Tier to vote Sasuke and Minato into, which is why i'm trying to gauge this by making these points. But whatever maybe I just won't vote this round.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 13, 2012)

I don't think this is too confusing. It was designed to be simple. Observe the represenatives in *S* tier. Observe the represenatives in *A* tier. Decide whether an individual is closer to *S* tier or *A* tier from general portrayal in the story. For example, was Naruto shown to be closer to Rinnegan Tobi, or to Edo Nagato?







In my opinion, he's more above Nagato than below Obito from general manga portrayal, but we can review and discuss that.


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## hitokugutsu (Sep 13, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> And as for Sasuke using those feats, I think that because we're using manga portrayal, that we should stick to the timeframe and not hypothetical capability. At the time Sasuke was "Mangekyō Sasuke" he never actually used his Amaterasu orb, but more on point perhaps, this Mangekyō Sasuke will have a parenthetical that specifies it is the Danzō incarnation.​



But if we have things like Old Hiruzen (manga portrayal) and "hypothetical" Prime Hiruzen (deduction of his prime), then MS Sasuke should also get this treatment

If we've learned anything from Itachi's Susanoo, is that Full Susanoo matters. Things like Totsuka Blitz were only available in full Susanoo
And the Amaterasu Orb cant be really overlooked. Sasuke did *show* in the manga while in MS. And we can tell for 99% what moves his Amaterasu Orb would give him (from ESM showcasing)

I agree we should pick characters from manga portrayal, but we should choose them at their *peak*
MS Sasuke was, skillwise, at his peak vs Kakashi, except he was low on chakra. But we know what kinda moves he has in fully mastered MS


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## Turrin (Sep 13, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> I don't think this is too confusing. It was designed to be simple. *Observe the represenatives in* *S* tier. Observe the represenatives in *A* tier. Decide whether an individual is closer to *S* tier or *A* tier from general portrayal in the story. For example, was Naruto shown to be closer to Rinnegan Tobi, or to Edo Nagato?


Closer to Edo Nagato, than Obito or Madara for sure. But yeah now it's less confusing that you removed B and BM Naruto.


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## Ptolemy (Sep 13, 2012)

Again, basically what Strategoob said. It was decided that Orochimaru was weaker than Itachi and that you agree with. It's your personal call whether you consider Sasuke closer to Orochimaru at this point or whether you consider him comparable to characters in the S tier.


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## hitokugutsu (Sep 13, 2012)

Ptolemy said:


> Again, basically what Strategoob said. It was decided that Orochimaru was weaker than Itachi and that you agree with. It's your personal call whether you consider Sasuke closer to Orochimaru at this point or whether you consider him comparable to characters in the S tier.



I guess in the end it doesn't  matter much for me. Overall I would still count MS Sasuke more towards S tier anyway. 
Even with Ribcage Susanoo he was holding his own vs the Kage Summit, let alone further development


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## Sadgoob (Sep 13, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> But if we have things like Old Hiruzen (manga portrayal) and "hypothetical" Prime Hiruzen (deduction of his prime), then MS Sasuke should also get this treatment
> 
> If we've learned anything from Itachi's Susanoo, is that Full Susanoo matters. Things like Totsuka Blitz were only available in full Susanoo
> And the Amaterasu Orb cant be really overlooked. Sasuke did *show* in the manga while in MS. And we can tell for 99% what moves his Amaterasu Orb would give him (from ESM showcasing)
> ...



Alright, I don't think a compromise is too difficult here. In the future, we can make a second version of Sasuke, and give him the feats used against Kabuto and whatnot, as I do agree with you to an extent, and I do believe that "Mangekyō Sasuke" could practically appear on five different tiers depending on which incarnation is being used. For now, however, this is the Danzō incarnation.​


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## Dr. White (Sep 13, 2012)

There is really nothing to argue about. Orochimaru in his prime wanted an Uchiha body his arrogant ass messed with Itachi, and got Genjutsu'd before he knew what was going on. Itahci followed up by cutting off his hand making Kai release impossible, pain obviously wasn;t gonna help Oro and the incident caused him to flee Konoha and get a new host body. Itachi specifically claimed Oro was useless in front of his eyes. What more de-hype could there possibly be?

An famous Sannin gets completely obliterated by a 13 year old kid, before the match begins, being at the mercy of Itachi(who was not even in his prime). This added to Itachi 's treatment of Hydra Summon Oro, just _seals_ the deal literally.


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## DragonOfChoas (Sep 13, 2012)

^You probably should wait until Oro is being ranked before starting with this otherwise the thread won't survive long...


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## Turrin (Sep 13, 2012)

MS Sasuke is closer to A Tier. Hell he could easily loose to Orochimaru since he lacks a sealing Jutsu or a jutsu that Orochimaru can't defend. In terms of portrayal, Orochimaru is being portrayed as still a potential threat to EMS Sasuke let alone MS Sasuke. On the other hand he'd get completely obliterated by Edo Nagato, who easily solo'd KCM Naruto & Killer B at the same time (in terms of portrayal, hype, and feats).


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## Sadgoob (Sep 13, 2012)

Orochimaru admitted that he wasn't strong enough to take Sasuke's body, and current Sasuke hasn't really accessed a power greater than the Mangekyō Sharingan abilities. 

Sasuke is basically where was with his new eyes where he was when he fought Bee for the first time with his Mangekyō Sharingan. He doesn't actually have any Eternal Mangekyō abilities yet.

And Suigetsu being scared of Orochimaru doesn't indicate anything, as Suigetsu is most likely *B* tier. And let's not lose sight of the massive de-hyping Orochimaru had, with arms, relative to Itachi.​


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## Turrin (Sep 13, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> Orochimaru admitted that he wasn't strong enough to take on current Sasuke, ​



A statement which Suigetsu shed some doubt on.



> and current Sasuke hasn't really accessed a power greater than the Mangekyō Sharingan.


You just said this MS Sasuke is the one who faced Danzo. That MS Sasuke had no Stage 4 Susano'o, No Enton Sword, No Enton Megatama, and no EMS to mitigate the negative effects of MS.​


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## Sadgoob (Sep 13, 2012)

Suigetsu going "I wonder..." to Orochimaru's confession of inferiority is overpowering all the other logic relevant to whether or not Orochimaru can take Sasuke's body right now? 

He couldn't take an 11 year old Itachi's body, and said it was an impossible dream to match Itachi. Current Sasuke is in no danger whatsoever, particularly if Orochimaru can't use his arms right now.

And we're not supposed to be comparing feats, so Sasuke not having a sealing jutsu to counter Orochimaru in a hypothetical clash is largely irrelevant to their general portrayal.​


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## Turrin (Sep 13, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> Suigetsu going "I wonder" is overpowering all the other logic relevant to whether or not Orochimaru can take Sasuke's body right now?​


Taking Sasuke's body has nothing to do with the "level" of the two characters, since taking someones body requires Orochimaru to be able to defeat them w/o Killer intent and take possession of their mind in his weird dimension. Much harder to do than just defeat someone or in this case be closer to MS Sasuke's "level" than MS Sasuke is to Edo Nagato.



> He couldn't take an 11 year old Itachi's body. Current Sasuke is in no danger.


Itachi wasn't 11 he was 17 or 18. The Time line is a bunch of BS. 17-18 Itachi was probably stronger than Danzo fight MS Sasuke, so this distinction is pointless for the specific character in question. No to mention the other flaws already addressed above.



> And we're not supposed to be comparing feats, so Sasuke not having a sealing jutsu to counter Orochimaru in a hypothetical clash is largely irrelevant to their general portrayal.


I thought people did agree to compare feats, just that others things should also count.


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## αce (Sep 13, 2012)

I don't think Orochimaru was portrayed as a threat to Sasuke, it was merely pointing out that he still had the same ambitions.



> Itachi wasn't 11 he was 17 or 18. The Time line is a bunch of BS. 17-18  Itachi was probably stronger than Danzo fight MS Sasuke, so this  distinction is pointless for the specific character in question. No to  mention the other flaws already addressed above.



The Uchiha massacre happened when Sasuke was 6 right? Sasuke is 15-16 after the time skip. Itachi is 21. Simple math.


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## Dr. White (Sep 13, 2012)

Turrin said:


> MS Sasuke is closer to A Tier. Hell he could easily loose to Orochimaru since he lacks a sealing Jutsu or a jutsu that Orochimaru can't defend. In terms of portrayal, Orochimaru is being portrayed as still a potential threat to EMS Sasuke let alone MS Sasuke. On the other hand he'd get completely obliterated by Edo Nagato, who easily solo'd KCM Naruto & Killer B at the same time.



Oro can easily be trapped in genjutsu (Tsukuyomi), be burnt with Amaterasu(which threatened Kabuto on top of Oro's durability, Karin's healing, and liquidification.) Not to mention he has no counters for getting into Susano/enton covered susano. Oro hasn't shown speed feats of dodging Susano's arrow either. I didn't even mention the tactics, Raiton, katon, and shuriken jutsu utilized by Hebi Sasuke.

Looking at General Tiers Sasuke has
-Great physical stats
-MS(Tsuku, Ama, Susano)
-2 offensive elemental affinities
-Flight via Hawk Summon

why are you even using two specific character comparisons? Tiers are characters applied to said verse.

Lol there is no way Itachi being 17(the age he was in pt. 1) makes plausible sense Turrin. Oro was gone from Akatsuki some time before he attacked Konoha, the fight happened on Itachi's first meeting, which is right after the Uchiha clan massacre making him 11-13 or so


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## Ptolemy (Sep 13, 2012)

Debate for Orochimaru shouldn't be taking place now. At the moment it is largely just Turrin who is arguing for a particular posistion. Whilst this process is diplomatic, we can't change things on the whim of just one person. My stance is that if someone makes a comment and a dozen people agree, a change should be made or considered, but heavy debate about characters not being discussed should be considered derailment. A comment should simply be made 'I don't think Orochimaru is placed correctly'. If several people agree we can make changes.

@ Turrin, I think we can make a point of discussing Orochimaru next if you feel that is really necessary.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 13, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Itachi wasn't 11 he was 17 or 18. The Time line is a bunch of BS. 17-18 Itachi was probably stronger than Danzo fight MS Sasuke, so this distinction is pointless for the specific character in question. No to mention the other flaws already addressed above.



Oh please, Orochimaru pointblank said it was when Itachi was 11, and Akatsuki said as much too. It's simple math. The timeline is only a bunch of BS when you want to deny facts, but you'll walk on air to theorize your way out of Minato being matched by 14 year old Obito.​


Ptolemy said:


> Debate for Orochimaru shouldn't be taking place now. At the moment it is largely just Turrin who is arguing. Whilst this process is diplomatic, we can't change things on the whim of just one person. My stance is that if a dozen people chime in a change should be made or considered, but heavy debate about characters not being discussed should be considered derailment.
> 
> @ Turrin, I think we can make a point of discussing Orochimaru next if you feel that is really necessary.



In this case, it's relevant to Sasuke. Turrin is making the argument that Suigetsu being afraid that Orochimaru will take current Sasuke's body is evidence enough to place Sasuke on Orochimaru's tier, and I'm pretty much calling bullshit on that by virtue of Itachi.​


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## αce (Sep 13, 2012)

For Itachi to have been 17, the Uchiha massacre would have had to happen 2 years prior to part 1, which we know to not be the case at all as Sasuke would have been 9 when it happened. He was clearly younger than that during the flashback.

Yes the timeline has plot holes but it doesn't mean we can discard the things that follow the time line correctly.


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## Sniffers (Sep 13, 2012)

No arguments about (s)he doesn't have a counter to this or that thus loses to character X and thus is weaker. That belongs in the battledome. However, calling on feats that actually happened is okay, such as Kakashi and Gai fighting totally fine among the current (nigh) top tiers.. if you wish to argue that.





♠Ace♠ said:


> I don't think Orochimaru was portrayed as a threat to Sasuke, it was merely pointing out that he still had the same ambitions.


This.

Orochimaru admitted inferiority to Sasuke for the time being. Suigetsu just wondered what Orochimaru was plotting which could give him sufficient power (in the future) to take Sasuke's body. _That incarnation of Orochimaru_ will be voted on when he actually comes into existence.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 13, 2012)

Ace, Orochimaru said he left Akatsuki seven years before part one. Itachi was seventeen in part one. Akatsuki said Orochimaru left Akatsuki ten years before part two. Itachi was twenty-one in part two. It's an open and shut case as to when Orochimaru left Akatsuki and hold old Itachi was when Orochimaru left.

But back on point. If Orochimaru with arms couldn't take a very young Itachi's body, then Orochimaru without arms isn't taking Sasuke's body, and Suigetsu's doubts have no impact on that relative logic. And if taking the body has no impact on power, then Suigetsu's fears are irrelevant, because his fear was centered around Orochimaru possessing Sasuke.​


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## Turrin (Sep 13, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> Oh please, Orochimaru pointblank said it was when Itachi was 11, and Akatsuki said as much too. The timeline is only a bunch of BS when you want to deny facts,​


Yeah and your point is what exactly the stated times are meaningless since Kishi doesn't give a shit about the time-line. Do you really want me to list all the flaws with it. Actually look at Itachi's appearance in the flashback to his duel with Orochimaru, he looks exactly the same as he does in Part I & Part II, there is no way in hell the dude looked that way when he was 11. 



> but you'll walk on air to talk your way out of Minato being matched by Obito at age 14.


What? I wouldn't use the time-line to try and debate that Obito wasn't 14 when he faced Minato. I would use common sense, I.E. Obito's appearance as he is drawn in the manga. Again to base something off the time-line which has countless flaws, is an extremely poor argument, to the point of absurdity after recent chapters.



Strategoob said:


> In this case, it's relevant to Sasuke. Turrin is making the argument that Suigetsu being afraid that Orochimaru will take current Sasuke's body is evidence enough to place Sasuke on Orochimaru's tier, and I'm pretty much calling bullshit on that by virtue of Itachi.​


Oh and no I'm not making that argument. I'm making the argument that overall MS Sasuke who faced Danzo is closer to Orochimaru in level via portrayal than Edo Nagato. There are many points as to why this is the case beyond just Suigetsu's comment as well.

1. Danzo Fight Sasuke's Hype is Closer to Orochimaru's
2. Danzo Fight Sasuke's accomplishes are more similar Orochimaru's than Nagato
3. etc...


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## Sadgoob (Sep 13, 2012)

Kishi's art doesn't change the databook or the math. Kakashi doesn't look like a six year old in the flashback when he's graduating the academy, but that's what he was stated to be by the author.

Hell, Itachi didn't look 13 when he killed his clan either, but there comes a point when you put your own convictions and subjectivity aside for explicitly stated facts by the author of the manga.​


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 13, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> There is really nothing to argue about. Orochimaru in his prime wanted an Uchiha body his arrogant ass messed with Itachi, and got Genjutsu'd before he knew what was going on. Itahci followed up by cutting off his hand making Kai release impossible, pain obviously wasn;t gonna help Oro and the incident caused him to flee Konoha and get a new host body. Itachi specifically claimed Oro was useless in front of his eyes. What more de-hype could there possibly be?
> 
> An famous Sannin gets completely obliterated by a 13 year old kid, before the match begins, being at the mercy of Itachi(who was not even in his prime). This added to Itachi 's treatment of Hydra Summon Oro, just _seals_ the deal literally.



Orochimaru was dying and had no killer intent when he confronted Itachi, he was only trying to take Itachi's body but Itachi countered it like Sasuke later did; this Orochimaru also didn't have all of his kinjutsu. From this confrontation, you can at best put Itachi on the same level as CS2 Sasuke whom admitted that he only won, despite his arrogant boasts, that he only won because Orochimaru was weakened. In addition, losing a hand doesn't mean shit to Orochimaru, Itachi had nothing that could have defeated a healthy Orochimaru sans Totsuka or potentially Izanami, which both were obviously unused. 

There were stipulations to the match which I pointed out that you have to keep in mind, you also have to remember other factors how he has counters to all of Itachi's abilities and has access to Hashirama and Madara, either one >>> Itachi. In their second encounter, Orochimaru used the last of his chakra to emerge from Sasuke and still didn't have his jutsus either. So again, factors that you have to keep in mind. 

Orochimaru, without arms, was stronger than Hebi Sasuke and is implied to be a threat to EMS Sasuke. It also doesn't make sense for Itachi to be as strong as you believe him to be, because that would make 13 year old Itachi more powerful than EMS Sasuke as well, and since Itachi got older and obviously better... well you see how that doesn't make sense in the context of the manga. You have to keep things in perspective and use logic. 



DragonOfChoas said:


> ^You probably should wait until Oro is being ranked before starting with this otherwise the thread won't survive long...



Indeed.



Strategoob said:


> Oh please, Orochimaru pointblank  said it was when Itachi was 11, and Akatsuki said as much too. It's  simple math. The timeline is only a bunch of BS when you want to deny  facts, but you'll walk on air to theorize your way out of Minato being  matched by 14 year old Obito.​In this case, it's relevant to Sasuke. Turrin is making the  argument that Suigetsu being afraid that Orochimaru will take current  Sasuke's body is evidence enough to place Sasuke on Orochimaru's tier,  and I'm pretty much calling bullshit on that by virtue of Itachi.​



If Itachi was 11 then that means he didn't have MS, which means there's  absolutely nothing at Itachi's disposal that could had defeated a 100%  Orochimaru, much less one with killing intent. 

Orochimaru himself said he wasn't strong enough "yet," which means he isn't at full strength.


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## αce (Sep 13, 2012)

> Ace, Orochimaru said he left Akatsuki seven years before part one.  Itachi was seventeen in part one. Akatsuki said Orochimaru left Akatsuki  ten years before part two. Itachi was twenty-one in part two. It's an  open and shut case as to when Orochimaru left Akatsuki and hold old  Itachi was when Orochimaru left.



Umm yeah I'm agreeing with you except my explanation was easier.

Massacre happened when Sasuke is 6.
Sasuke is 16 in part 2.
10 year difference.

Itachi is 21 in part 2.
Take 10 years off to when he left the village and joined Akatsuki.
Itachi was 10-11 when he met Orochimaru and beat him.


And I know the anime shouldn't be brought up, but Kishi has problems (from his own admission) drawing characters to the right age. The anime made it pretty clear Itachi was very young.


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## Dr. White (Sep 13, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Yeah and your point is what exactly the stated times are meaningless since Kishi doesn't give a shit about the time-line. Do you really want me to list all the flaws with it. Actually look at Itachi's appearance in the flashback to his duel with Orochimaru, he looks exactly the same as he does in Part I & Part II, there is no way in hell the dude looked that way when he was 11.
> 
> 
> What? I wouldn't use the time-line to try and debate that Obito wasn't 14 when he faced Minato. I would use common sense, I.E. Obito's appearance as he is drawn in the manga. Again to base something off the time-line which has countless flaws, is an extremely poor argument, to the point of absurdity after recent chapters.



BS, Kishi does give a shit about the timeline, the manga is not over yet you are treating it as if it has been done fore 5 years. Kishi can mend, or even enlighten us on said "plotholes". Even if Kishi did actually not care about his manga(which he has been working on almost weekly for about 10 years) plotline, what he states in the manga is fact. The scene was a flashback to when Orochimaru was in akatsuki. There is no way Itachi was 17 when he first joined akatsuki that would point to a window of his life missing from his defection from Konoha to part 1 which is overly false. Itachi was still yet a child, look how tall he is when was infront of the council/Danzo(which happened before the massacre) it is clear you are grasping right now.


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## Ptolemy (Sep 13, 2012)

@ Turrin + Strategoob

I think it should be said that this is a discussion thread and not necessary a debate thread. Whilst of course challenging other people's opinions is part of a discussion, the difference between that and a debate is that the former merely throws ideas around whilst the latter is more so about proving people wrong. When we start to get in discussions about timelines and characters that are not at the forefront of the discussion (Kakashi & Obito) i think we are slipping too much into heavy debate and loosing track of the overall goals of the thread.

We have to allow for subjectivity and the right for people to reason/interpret differently from each other. Turrin's posted that he feels MS Sasuke is closer to A tier and justified his stance. That should be enough imo.


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## Elite Uchiha (Sep 13, 2012)

Based on author portrayal, Minato is S+

What little manga panels we have on Minato, Minato is S.


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## Dr. White (Sep 13, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Orochimaru was dying and had no killer intent when he confronted Itachi, he was only trying to take Itachi's body but Itachi countered it like Sasuke later did; this Orochimaru also didn't have all of his kinjutsu. From this confrontation, you can at best put Itachi on the same level as CS2 Sasuke whom admitted that he only won, despite his arrogant boasts, that he only won because Orochimaru was weakened.
> 
> There were stipulations to the match which I pointed out that you have to keep in mind, you also have to remember other factors how he has counters to all of Itachi's abilities and has access to Hashirama and Madara, either one >>> Itachi. In their second encounter, Orochimaru used the last of his chakra to emerge from Sasuke and still didn't have his jutsus either. So again, factors that you have to keep in mind.
> 
> ...



Where was it stated he was dying? Orochimaru was a full blooded Akatsuki in a prime partnership with Sasori who very much respected him. He tried to get Itachi and failed. End of story, nothing he could have done in his prime would have saved him from Genjutsu on Itachi's level. Even it was an all out fight Oro would have to deal with MS and Itachi's skill which neither minus Itachi swiftly cutting of Oro's hand were displayed.

Those factors are cool and all but still accounted for in whole. Part 1 Orochimaru was able to to not only kill the kazekage but fight on par with Hiruzen even before bring out ET. It was clear he was extremely strong, even after slowly digressing even further than he was vs Itachi in his host body. Manga has time and time again proven Itachi over Orochimaru, even Orochimaru's potential unlocked(albeit I admit it wasn't oro's mind)in Kabuto's sage/dna modification speil was beaten by Itachi.


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## Turrin (Sep 13, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> BS, Kishi does give a shit about the timeline, the manga is not over yet you are treating it as if it has been done fore 5 years. Kishi can mend, or even enlighten us on said "plotholes". Even if Kishi did actually not care about his manga(which he has been working on almost weekly for about 10 years) plotline, what he states in the manga is fact. The scene was a flashback to when Orochimaru was in akatsuki. There is no way Itachi was 17 when he first joined akatsuki that would point to a window of his life missing from his defection from Konoha to part 1 which is overly false. Itachi was still yet a child, look how tall he is when was infront of the council/Danzo(which happened before the massacre) it is clear you are grasping right now.


Kishimoto not caring about his manga is different than Kishimoto not caring about the time-line within the manga. The time-line tells us people participated in the Chuunin exams when they were 3 years old, before they even graduated the academy. Your saying we should put stock into that shit?

He wanted to show Itachi as readers know him beating Orochimaru in a flashback. If he wanted to show an 11 Yo Itachi do it he would have drawn Itachi as a kid, not having the same exact appearance he has in Part I or Part II. No casual fan I have ever talked to reads that flashback and says, "Oh man Kid Itachi just beat Orochimaru". They say "Itachi (as in the one they know from Part I & Part II) beat Orochimaru"



Ptolemy said:


> @ Turrin + Strategoob
> 
> I think it should be said that this is a discussion thread and not necessary a debate thread. Whilst of course challenging other people's opinions is part of a discussion, the difference between that and a debate is that the former merely throws ideas around whilst the latter is more so about proving people wrong. When we start to get in discussions about timelines and characters that are not at the forefront of the discussion (Kakashi & Obito) i think we are slipping too much into heavy debate and loosing track of the overall goals of the thread.
> 
> We have to allow for subjectivity and the right for people to reason/interpret differently from each other. Turrin's posted that he feels MS Sasuke is closer to A tier and justified his stance. That should be enough imo.


Were not allowing for BD type logic based on this being the library, but also because people don't feel it will lead to the correct overall conclusions for the sake of the Tier List. I'd argue the same thing applies to people using the time-line (As in exact dates/ages) to justfy placements of characters. Hell the Time-line is worse because it has been directly proven to be a joke in recent chapters.


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## Dr. White (Sep 13, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Kishimoto not caring about his manga is different than Kishimoto not caring about the time-line within the manga. The time-line tells us people participated in the Chuunin exams when they were 3 years old, before they even graduated the academy. Your saying we should put stock into that shit?
> 
> He wanted to show Itachi as readers know him beating Orochimaru in a flashback. If he wanted to show an 11 Yo Itachi do it he would have drawn Itachi as a kid, not having the same exact appearance he has in Part I or Part II. No casual fan I have ever talked to reads that flashback and says, "Oh man Kid Itachi just beat Orochimaru". They say "Itachi (as in the one they know from Part I & Part II) beat Orochimaru"



Your argument is highly illogical. Just because certain plotholes exist due to Kishi being absent minded that does not mean he doesn;t care about his timeline. That is a juvenile way of thinking, he is a professional writer..One timeline does not give you grounds to overule facts that is ridiculous, a complete fallacy. Itachi wrote on paper and ink that Orochimaru fled Akatsuki 10 years before pt. 2, and the manga also specifically stated that Oro attacked Itachi almost immediatly after his introduction. Itachi kills clan at 13, flees to akatsuki that same year.  you do the math Turrin.


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## Ptolemy (Sep 13, 2012)

Well I don't have ultimate authority on whether or not the timeline should be used to justify a posistion, I think that's something that people should decided upon themselves.

As for the particular debate at hand, perhaps it would be better if it were taken to private messaging? At the very least perhaps it would be best if you guys adressed your posts to specific people and then spoilered the rest so people don't get lost in walls of text. I think this particular debate exemplifies why discussion might be valuable before the voting process so that the former doesn't completely overwhelm the latter. 

Anyway here is the tier list for anyone who wants to cast a vote.

VOTE: Minato
S+:
S: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Dr. White, Alex Payne, Samehada, Strategos, Ptolemy [7]
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:

VOTE: Mangekyō Sasuke (Danzō Fight)
S+:
S: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Dr. White, Strategos, Ptolemy [5]
A: Alex Payne, Samehada [2]
B:
C:
D:
E:


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## Turrin (Sep 13, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> Your argument is highly illogical. Just because certain plotholes exist due to Kishi being absent minded that does not mean he doesn;t care about his timeline. That is a juvenile way of thinking, he is a professional writer..One timeline does not give you grounds to overule facts that is ridiculous, a complete fallacy.


Lol 1 time-line, I can present you examples of roughly a dozen characters whose time-lines make zero sense (Itachi is one of them considering there is a proven flaw in his time-line from the whole he became Anbu captain at age 13, yet it's stated he didn't join Akatsuki till after the massacre, yet supposedly he took Orochimaru at age 11 while in Akatsuki).  



> Itachi wrote on paper and ink that Orochimaru fled Akatsuki 10 years before pt. 2, and the manga also specifically stated that Oro attacked Itachi almost immediatly after his introduction. Itachi kills clan at 13, flees to akatsuki that same year. you do the math Turrin.


Yup and Kishimoto doesn't know how to draw a 11 yo kid properly, despite him having no problem doing it in any other instance.



Ptolemy said:


> Well I don't have ultimate authority on whether or not the timeline should be used to justify a posistion, I think that's something that people should decided upon themselves.
> 
> As for the particular debate at hand, perhaps it would be better if it were taken to private messaging? At the very least perhaps it would be best if you guys adressed your posts to specific people and then spoilered the rest so people don't get lost in walls of text. I think this particular debate exemplifies why discussion might be valuable before the voting process so that the former doesn't completely overwhelm the latter.


I don't see how were suppose to discuss things in the thread, if we can't do what were doing right now.


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## Dr. White (Sep 13, 2012)

I'm done arguing it isn't even really debatable at all. Manga canon is manga canon. You can tell Orochimaru is not 50 in this panel


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## Sadgoob (Sep 13, 2012)

Ptolemy is right. I think I'm going to try to leave my posts open now rather than entering quote wars, as that would be most beneficial to this thread, and probably the forum in general lol.

If anybody would like to do likewise, and start making open "appeals" rather entering personal debates with other individuals, then I think that would be super-fantastic for the value of the thread.​


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 13, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> Where was it stated he was dying? Orochimaru was a full blooded Akatsuki in a prime partnership with Sasori who very much respected him. He tried to get Itachi and failed. End of story, nothing he could have done in his prime would have saved him from Genjutsu on Itachi's level. Even it was an all out fight Oro would have to deal with MS and Itachi's skill which neither minus Itachi swiftly cutting of Oro's hand were displayed.
> 
> Those factors are cool and all but still accounted for in whole. Part 1 Orochimaru was able to to not only kill the kazekage but fight on par with Hiruzen even before bring out ET. It was clear he was extremely strong, even after slowly digressing even further than he was vs Itachi in his host body. Manga has time and time again proven Itachi over Orochimaru, even Orochimaru's potential unlocked(albeit I admit it wasn't oro's mind)in Kabuto's sage/dna modification speil was beaten by Itachi.



Orochimaru can only trade bodies once every couple years, that's when his host is dying and thus he is dying too until he can find a new host. He tried to take Itachi's body, that meant it was time to trade bodies and he was dying. 
first of all you are biased about Itachi's genjutsu, Orochimaru was going to break it, not only that but Orochimaru has snake sensing which renders him immune to genjutsu. For whatever reason, he needs to make eye contact for the soul transfer, which left him vulnerable to both Itachi and later Sasuke. Getting a hand cut off literally means nothing to Orochimaru, he laughs at getting chopped to pieces. The only things Itachi had that could had stopped Orochimaru, if he wasn't dying, was Totsuka and potentially Izanami, neither of which were obviously used. 

The manga has proven no such thing when you consider factors and mutual abilities. To insist that Itachi is so much more powerful than healthy Orochimaru, even at 13, throws the tiers into chaos. Not only that, but it completely throws them out the window since Hashirama or Madara >>>> Itachi, either of which Orochimaru could send after Itachi if he so chose. To say that 13 year old Itachi >>> Orochimaru + Snake Sensing + Regen Hax + Hashirama + Tobirama + Madara is illogical. Even saying 18-21 year old Itachi is capable of such a feat is ludicrous. You're also completely ignoring circumstances again to say that Itachi > Orochimaru's full potential via Kabuto since Itachi was an immortal regenerating zombie with unlimited chakra and no drawbacks from mastering MS, or that Itachi had significant help from EMS Sasuke, in addition to the fact that not only could Kabuto not kill Sasuke because of his intent but also didn't summon any Edo Tenseis.



♠Ace♠ said:


> Umm yeah I'm agreeing with you except my explanation was easier.
> 
> Massacre happened when Sasuke is 6.
> Sasuke is 16 in part 2.
> ...



Problem, Sasuke was 8 and Itachi was 13.


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## shintebukuro (Sep 13, 2012)

^ That's why you don't put Itachi in off the bat.


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## Turrin (Sep 13, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> I'm done arguing it isn't even really debatable at all. Manga canon is manga canon. You can tell Orochimaru is not 50 in this panel


Your counter point is Orochimaru's appearance. You are talking about the guy who can change his face to reflect anything he wants and is also immortal due to his Fuushi Tensei technique, right? Manga cannon is manga cannon, is fine, stance to take, except when it's blatantly obvious that the author does not care to set up the time-line with any amount of precision.


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## Ptolemy (Sep 13, 2012)

Turrin said:


> I don't see how were suppose to discuss things in the thread, if we can't do what were doing right now.



@Turrin 
*Spoiler*: __ 



I don't think the discussion itself is necessarily problematic, but I'm assuming the majority of casual voters won't want to read or be interested in going through dozens of highly intricate posts or search through several pages to find the votes. Hence  I suggested spoiler tags to try and limit the space taken up and the clustered aesthetic. Although, I'd like to point out in the history of all debating on the entireity of the internet, I could probably count the number of times one party has actually changed their mind of my hands......if I had pirate hooks for hands. Perhaps that's why I feel it best to keep it short and sweet.

At the very least it should be made sure that the condition of current vote s is not lost several pages before.


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## Arles Celes (Sep 13, 2012)

Turrin said:


> MS Sasuke is closer to A Tier. Hell he could easily loose to Orochimaru since he lacks a sealing Jutsu or a jutsu that Orochimaru can't defend. In terms of portrayal, Orochimaru is being portrayed as still a potential threat to EMS Sasuke let alone MS Sasuke. On the other hand he'd get completely obliterated by Edo Nagato, who easily solo'd KCM Naruto & Killer B at the same time (in terms of portrayal, hype, and feats).



If you believe that EMS Sasuke is either only equal or a bit above Oro then does it mean that EMS Sasuke is till below SM Naruto?

Because SM Naruto is stronger than Jiraiya and Jiraiya is portrayed as stronger than current Oro.

But if that is the case then BM Naruto>>>>SM Naruto>>EMS Sasuke? 

It makes no sense for Sasuke to be THAT below Naruto unless a Juubi level power up is coming to him.

I believe that Oro eventually will shape up to be a worthy opponent for Sasuke to face but not necessarily now.


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## αce (Sep 13, 2012)

I'm seeing a problem arise  already. S+ tier is going to range gigantically in power levels. The upper half of the tier is going to completely eclipse the bottom half. If Minato is S-tier, and MS Sasuke is S-tier (which seems to be indicated by the numbers right now), then logically EMS Sasuke is S+ tier. Well then, an automatic problem arises as Tobi, Kabuto and Madara are all S+ tier and completely overshadow Sasuke is strength.

Of course, this is just based on the voting. I don't necessarily agree with the placement choice but anyone who put Minato and Sasuke both in S-tier is creating a giant problem for themselves when EMS Sasuke rolls around.


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## Dr. White (Sep 13, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 





You are not taking into account several things. Orochimaru was roughly in his prime when joining Akatsuki. He was powerful enough to gain access to their group and men of Sasori's level respected him. Nothing suggest he was signifigantly handicapped in the slightest. It is Orochimaru's fault for using that jutsu and he bears the consequences, this is the same man who 13 years later could fight on par with Sanin armless, and even fight KN4 close to his deathbed. 

Now we go further.
Orochimaru in Akatsuki years is more fresh and less beat up than Orochimaru at the start of the series. Despite this he was still able to pull of the aforementioned feats, and beat high caliber ninja. Itachi's genjutsu completely debilitated him, the fact that Oro could barely move his body is indicative of the strength of his weaker genjutsu. Had Itachi the mind to he could have Ama'd him there or cut his head off instead he cut off his hand and let him live. Your making stuff up by saying Orochimaru was majorly handicapped, and can not be affected by genjutsu. BS Oro is susceptible as anyone else. Itachi can trap Killer B in Genjutsu and he is a perfect jin with experienced Hachibi. Orochimaru has not been shown to be able use snake sensing as well as Kabuto, he has no where near the same perception needed for close range battle. 

Orochimaru had edo tensei, and there is a list of other ninja worthy he could have used. You can't use that as an excuse for Orochimaru I am talking about his prime here disregarding ET. Point is Oro got stomped, bad twice.


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## Ptolemy (Sep 13, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> I'm seeing a problem arise already. S+ tier is going to range gigantically in power levels. The upper half of the tier is going to completely eclipse the bottom half. If Minato is S-tier, and MS Sasuke is S-tier (which seems to be indicated by the numbers right now), then logically EMS Sasuke is S+ tier. Well then, an automatic problem arises as Tobi, Kabuto and Madara are all S+ tier and completely overshadow Sasuke is strength.



I've considered this, but we might just have to accept that the very upper tiers are going to have considerable variation. The nature of the manga is that there are bigger differences between people as they get stronger on the tier list. If not we are going to have half a dozen tiers for just half a dozen characters.  

Imo, Seperate tiers should only be considered if the difference is completely staggering. Edo Madara and the current Sauce are incomparable, but if Sasuke were to use perfect Susano, whilst he would still be considerably weaker than Edo Madara he would be of a much more comparable strength.


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## Dr. White (Sep 13, 2012)

Minato S Tier, MS Sasuke S- Tier what is the problem? Right nowis just general tiers I thought?


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## Arles Celes (Sep 13, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> I'm seeing a problem arise  already. S+ tier is going to range gigantically in power levels. The upper half of the tier is going to completely eclipse the bottom half. If Minato is S-tier, and MS Sasuke is S-tier (which seems to be indicated by the numbers right now), then logically EMS Sasuke is S+ tier. Well then, an automatic problem arises as Tobi, Kabuto and Madara are all S+ tier and completely overshadow Sasuke is strength.
> 
> Of course, this is just based on the voting. I don't necessarily agree with the placement choice but anyone who put Minato and Sasuke both in S-tier is creating a giant problem for themselves when EMS Sasuke rolls around.



Minato and MS Sasuke being in the same tier seems unlikely as even EMS Sasuke based on his current showing may have trouble against Minato.

On the other hand Edo Madara with his insane feats should be a tier above Minato and probably a tier above Hashirama.

S+ tier Edo Madara and S tier Minato and Hashirama sounds rather reasonable with EMS Sasuke needing perhaps a few more feats before he eventually jumps in to S Tier.


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## Hossaim (Sep 13, 2012)

Vote MS Sasuke: *S/B]. Amaterasu pretty much automatically solos anyone without 4.5 speed or the ability to block it at 4.5 speed (ergo someone with Susanoo), or someone with Izanagi. His Susanoo is also only capable of being broken by a select few techniques. 

Vote Minato: S. He can teleport ffs. Only an incredibly fast technique (Kirin, Obito Kamui) or the Meteor Technique can really hit him. However, he lacks serious offense.*


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## αce (Sep 13, 2012)

Yes I agree there's no problem with making Sasuke one less rating than Minato with only MS. Otherwise giant problems arise with EMS Sasuke.

Put MS Sasuke one tier below Minato. Then have EMS Sasuke be on the same tier as Hashirama and Minato, which makes sense since EMS version of Madara was equal to Hashirama.

MS Sasuke and Minato shouldn't be on equal footing.


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## Sniffers (Sep 13, 2012)

So since there seems a lot of trouble with MS Sasuke's placement and since experience shows at the top tier details tend to be a greater issue, would it be an idea to already introduce an A+ tier? Is there support for this?

*Introduce A+ tier at this stage?*
Yes: Sniffers [1]
No:


If this vote doesn't catch on, then we stick with what we have and roll with it.


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## αce (Sep 13, 2012)

Although even then I'm having problems accepting that Hashirama and Minato would be on the same tier. I suppose I'll just have to accept the fact that giant variations will arise between the upper part of a tier and the lower part.


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## Ptolemy (Sep 13, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> Minato S Tier, MS Sasuke S- Tier what is the problem? Right nowis just general tiers I thought?



Yes, general tiers are what is being considered, but Ace was poiting out that he thought the S+ tier would be flawed based on who would potentially be rated there.

That's of course his opinion and there's no guarantee that certain characters will get placed on a certain tier.

Also wasn't it Madara + Nine Tailed Fox vs Hashirama, which could put EMS in a different perspective.

*Suggestion:* We should avoid the latest itterations of Sasuke & Naruto, because their powers are constantly changing and are overall hard to judge. 

Anyway, I'm out for tonight.


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## Dr. White (Sep 13, 2012)

In fact let us not stop there we should ban the following from the list for right now: *Kakashi, Gai, BM Naruto, EMS Sasuke, Tobi, and Orochimaru.* Bee to this point has showed all he can do.


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## timmysblood (Sep 13, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> In fact let us not stop there we should ban the following from the list for right now: *Kakashi, Gai, BM Naruto, EMS Sasuke, Tobi, and Orochimaru.* Bee to this point has showed all he can do.



Agreed  , anyone who is currently in a fight shouldn't be polled.


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## Turrin (Sep 13, 2012)

Arles Celes said:


> If you believe that EMS Sasuke is either only equal or a bit above Oro then does it mean that EMS Sasuke is till below SM Naruto?
> 
> Because SM Naruto is stronger than Jiraiya and Jiraiya is portrayed as stronger than current Oro.
> 
> ...


I never said EMS Sasuke is equal to Orochimaru. What I'm saying is Danzo Fight Sasuke is closer in strength to Orochimaru than to Edo Nagato. I don't think EMS Sasuke should even be rated yet.


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## Dr. White (Sep 13, 2012)

I change my vote to MS Sasuke: *A Tier*


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 13, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Except that he was dying, that's how he was handicapped. In addition to that, he had no killing intent. We also can't say that Orochimaru was roughly in his prime because, not only did he not have Edo Tensei, but his hobby is learning and inventing jutsus. He spent all those years doing it, Kabuto's jutsus were applications of his research, and we also don't yet know what jutsu is on Orochimaru's scroll that only he can do. 

The genjutsu didn't completely debilitate him, he resisted a genjutsu that was supposed to paralyze him and was about to break it. As I said too, his snake sensing makes him immune to Itachi's genjutsu if he was going for the kill. Also, cutting off Orochimaru's head wouldn't do anything to him and he'd just use Oral Rebirth for Amaterasu. I'm not making anything up, it's canon. Bee is no indication of anything since he relies on Gyuuki for help against genjutsu, Naruto was capable with his minimal skill to resist being put to sleep by Itachi's genjutsu. 

You can't disregard Edo Tensei just because it's convenient for you, Orochimaru isn't even in his prime unless he has Edo Tensei. _Handicapped_ Orochimaru got "stomped" twice.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 13, 2012)

To anyone else concerned about Eternal Mangekyō Sasuke being *S+*, I don't think we're going to add Eternal Mangekyō Sasuke until he has more specific Eternal Mangekyō feats.

I suspect that his Eternal Mangekyō feat will be Perfect Susano'o with a giant Amaterasu sword or whip that he can manipulate with Kagutsuchi and create lightning storms with, at which point I'll probably be okay with him being *S+*. 

Moreover, keep in mind that Sasuke being ranked as *S* in our broad prototype does not mean he won't later be subdivided into *S-*.​


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## Turrin (Sep 13, 2012)

Also this might be a bit off topic, though not entirely sure since people seem to be discussing it, so I apologize if it is, but I still think if we are going with the whole representatives thing. The best way to do that would be to use the Main Character Naruto as the representative of each Tier:

U Tier

S+ Naruto (War Arc) _= Naruto After BM Awakening_
S   Naruto (Island Training Arc) _= Naruto After Island Training_
A+ Naruto (Senjutsu Training Arc) _= Naruto After Senjutsu Training_
A   Naruto (Wind Training Arc) _= Naruto After Wind Training_
B+ Naruto (Rescue Gaara Arc)_ = Naruto After Time-Skip Training_
B   Naruto (Rescue Sasuke Arc)_ = Naruto After KN1_
C+ Naruto (Sannin Arc) _= Naruto After Rasengan Training_
C   Naruto (Chuunin Exams Arc) _= Naruto After J-man Training_
D+ Naruto (Wave Arc) _= Naruto after Tree Climbing Training_
D   Naruto (Intro Arc) _= Naruto after Scroll Training_


Than we can throw everyone else who is stronger than War Arc Naruto or could potentially be in U Tier (Or Unknown Quantity Tier). Than once Naruto gains another significant power up in a future "Arc" we can than use that Naruto as a representative and vote on the people within U Tier that we think fit that "level" and so on until the end of the manga and Naruto achieves his final power up. 

To me this is the most accurate way to go about things, with the idea of having broader Tiers as well as place holders. It also makes discussion of characters and how they fit easier to deal with and understand. Plus most characters have ether fought Naruto, his rival Sasuke, or been compared to 1 of them (Via Statements/Hype).


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 13, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Also this might be a bit off topic, though not entirely sure since people seem to be discussing it, so I apologize if it is, but I still think if we are going with the whole representatives thing. The best way to do that would be to use the Main Character Naruto as the representative of each Tier:
> 
> U Tier
> 
> ...



I could get behind that.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 13, 2012)

I do like that idea, but there are some issues. Naruto didn't really improve much between the Wave Arc and the Intro Arc. If anything, he was much more impressive in the Intro Arc with his clone army. The same sort of backwards logic is present in the Chūnin Arc versus the Sannin Arc and arguably the Rescue Sasuke Arc as well, because Gambabuta was such an amazing tool.​


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## Dr. White (Sep 13, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Except that he was dying, that's how he was handicapped. In addition to that, he had no killing intent. We also can't say that Orochimaru was roughly in his prime because, not only did he not have Edo Tensei, but his hobby is learning and inventing jutsus. He spent all those years doing it, Kabuto's jutsus like Inanimate Animation were applications of his research, and we also don't yet know what jutsu is on Orochimaru's scroll that only he can do.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



-No not at all  that is failed logic. That is like saying if Sasuke and Minato fought and Sasuke didn't have time to activate Susano, the fight did not count. It was clear that Orochimaru's ambush failed and he got caught by genjutsu. In a real fight rinse and repeat, not to mention he can genjutsu by use of his finger or crow. 

Oro plans an ambush on Itachi, it fails horribly. You act like it wasn't pre meditated, he had prep, and still got stomped. Not handicapped.

Oro was hiding in Sasuke and waited all that time to finally come out and he planned on ending the fight. Itachi took that ass, and sealed it in a bottle after demolishing his 9 headed hydra summon.

You fail to realize you need preperation for ET, it isn't a spur of the moment jutsu. If you're looking at it objectively then Itachi should gain just as much prep for the fight in which case Koto, Tsukuyomi(which once the target is caught can be hypnotized ala Kabuto)and Izanami still favor Itachi heavily.



                                       .


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## Turrin (Sep 13, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> I do like that idea, but there are some issues. Naruto didn't really improve much between the Wave Arc and the Intro Arc. If anything, he was much more impressive in the Intro Arc with his clone army. The same sort of backwards logic is present in the Chūnin Arc versus the Sannin Arc and arguably the Rescue Sasuke Arc as well, because Gambabuta was such an amazing tool.​


Ah I forgot to explain that part. I'm talking about Naruto after he receives his training and successive power ups in each arc. So:

Naruto (Wave Arc) = After he complete's scroll training
Naruto (Intro Arc) = After he complete's tree walking and gains partial access to KN0
Naruto (Chuunin Exams Arc ) = After J-man's Training and gains more complete access to KN0
etc..


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2012)

IMO,

Minato should be in top of S tier if not in bottom of S+.

The reasons IMO.
1- He destroy Obito in almost no time even when he was cared about his family and village... so on, and we all saw how difficult to hurt him is, even for BM Naruto with a lot of help, someone may said this Obito has 6 jin... etc, but lets not forget that Obito has 100% Kurama as will, who with 50% defeat 5 jin, so, the 100% in fact stronger than the 6 jin by far.

2- he fought against A & B together, and when B look like this it should be obvious that Minato above them by far, that beside what A said as well. Maybe someone said something like these

* B was so young back then, but we saw the current B who was afraid of  Minato's name until now.

* A is faster now than before, too bad nothing or no one said that in the manga, and we saw what RM Naruto face against him even with B's help, and A was with 1 hand, sure Naruto doesn't plan to fight him, but it's the same as
Minato.

3- With god death I believe he can take anyone down even if his enemy was stronger than him as what old Heruzin (?) did against Oro and his Edo.

4- All the other statement about him.

5- He took the title of "Hokage" from Hiruzen when he was very young
around 55 (Hiruzen's age ) and according to Obito's flashback he was
even younger maybe 45, and we now Hiruzen is THE STRONGEST hokage, so perhaps at that period of time Minato was even stronger
than him. 

Ms Sasuke should be at the bottom or in the middle of A tier IMO.  

1- We saw what B did to him even with all his team with him, of course he wasn't perfected the MS yet, but that doesn't change much I can't see his Susanoo help him here, Madara said his PS is as strong as the tailed beast and Madara's PS is much much stronger than Sasuke's, so how can that be a big deal ?

2- The same with A, he almost die even with his team with him, what happened to A is because he was angry and he didn't care what will happen to him as long as Sasuke'll die, but look at him against Madara he fought 5 Susanoo at the same time with 1 hand (even if I believe that, more clone is much easier to defeat them than 1 clone or then the Original even if it's stated to be the same, that ALWAYS happen in every anime I've seen.)

3- He wasn't as good as Itachi even when we know Sasuke's eyes is stronger than Itachi's but that doesn't make him stronger than him, and we know Jirayia is stronger than Itachi, so Sasuke shouldn't be anywhere beside them or above them IMO. 

In the end, Yes, I believe MS Sasuke and SM Naruto in the same level
with A more or less. Again this is My Opinion.


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## Octavian (Sep 13, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Although even then I'm having problems accepting that Hashirama and Minato would be on the same tier. I suppose I'll just have to accept the fact that giant variations will arise between the upper part of a tier and the lower part.



hashirama is S+ tier if rinnegan tobi/bm naruto are up there. i don't see him on the same level as the people in the S tier.


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## Dr. White (Sep 13, 2012)

Hashirama should be S+ Tier. He beat the strongest ninja in his time period + the strongest Bjuu at once. He even collected all 9 bjuu like Rikudo Sennin did.


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## Hossaim (Sep 13, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> Hashirama should be S+ Tier. He beat the strongest ninja in his time period + the strongest Bjuu at once. He even collected all 9 bjuu like Rikudo Sennin did.



Rinnegan Madara is stronger than Hashirama.


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## Algol (Sep 13, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 





Turrin said:


> Also this might be a bit off topic, though not entirely sure since people seem to be discussing it, so I apologize if it is, but I still think if we are going with the whole representatives thing. The best way to do that would be to use the Main Character Naruto as the representative of each Tier:
> 
> U Tier
> 
> ...






So Haku is D+? 

Lol, i'm just playin. But still.

Well, that was more Kyubi rage which won (which is like after J-man training [Neji fight]). So that makes sense I guess lol.

I do like Turrin's idea overall though.


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## Turrin (Sep 13, 2012)

Algol said:


> So Haku is D+?
> 
> Lol, i'm just playin. But still.
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



Well that would be up to you to decided. Is Haku closer to Naruto's "level" after Jiraiya's training or Naruto's "level" after Tree Climbing Training. But I certainly think evaluating Haku based on these two iterations of Naruto makes more sense than comparing him to a character like Rin (Who really shouldn't be E-Tier Anyway), Mizuki, or Tayuya. Who we really have no basis for comparison towards (other tying such comparison back to Naruto in more convoluted ways).


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 13, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



What you said doesn't make sense. In a real fight, Orochimaru wouldn't be trying to trade bodies with Itachi, meaning he wouldn't had left himself open to genjutsu. Okay, Orochimaru had to make eye contact to trade bodies with Sasuke too and lost, but Sasuke said that he couldn't have beaten a healthy Orochimaru. Does that still make Sasuke > Orochimaru?
The finger won't work since Orochimaru has snake sensing, and he can't cast genjutsus with his crows. 

What prep? He walked up to Itachi to take his body, failed. Orochimaru was also dying and had no killing intent. 

Huh? Orochimaru used the last of his chakra to emerge from Sasuke in that form, not having his arms, and let down his guard because he didn't know of Totsuka. Itachi also didn't personally do it, Susanoo did. 

You fail to realize that after you have Edo Tensei prepped, you can keep them stored in your basement for over 20 years until you need them. Itachi did get prep, he got MS. Itachi does not have Koto Amatsukami, Tsukiyomi won't work because of snake sensing (if Itachi can even get Orochimaru to look into his eyes otherwise), and Izanami is impracticable and almost impossible to use. Meanwhile Itachi gets raped by wood.


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## Dr. White (Sep 13, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> Rinnegan Madara is stronger than Hashirama.



No basis for this assessment, and even if he is he isn't beating Hashirama anything short of High-Extreme diff, so they should be on the same tier. Hashirama not only beat Madara but Top tier summon at that with one of the best DC's in the manga.


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## Hossaim (Sep 13, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> No basis for this assessment, and even if he is he isn't beating Hashirama anything short of High-Extreme diff, so they should be on the same tier. Hashirama not only beat Madara but Top tier summon at that with one of the best DC's in the manga.



A giant fucking Meteor is baisis for that statement.


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## Dr. White (Sep 13, 2012)

Edo Madara yes, I assumed you meant Prime Madara just with Rinnengan.


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## αce (Sep 13, 2012)

Madara "matched" Hashirama's power with just the EMS.
I'm fairly sure even the slightest increase in power, as the Rinnegan would give, would give Madara the edge in combat ability.


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## Turrin (Sep 13, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Madara "matched" Hashirama's power with just the EMS.
> I'm fairly sure even the slightest increase in power, as the Rinnegan would give, would give Madara the edge in combat ability.



I agree with this. EMS Madara was portrayed as nigh equal to Hashirama. Hashirama had the edge, like Naruto will probably have the edge by the end of his battle with Sasuke, but the gap hasn't been portrayed as large by any means. Since then Madara gained Rinnegan, Hashirama DNA/Chakra/Mokuton, and Immortal Zombie body with all it's perks. If that isn't enough to put someone a Tier higher than before, the tiers become totally pointless.

With that said, I still think having a U-Tier (Unknown "level" or "Quantity") to throw characters like these in would make the most sense.


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## Dr. White (Sep 13, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



-You fail to realize this fight will not last long enough for Orochimaru to have time and summon them. Itachi is going to rape him, *you have yet to prove how snake sensing does shit in this fight minus tell oro where Itachi is.* He has absolutely no counter.

MS does not count as prep.....  it counts as a stage of one's deelopement. He gained MS before killing the Uchiha clan bud. Oro is busy harvesting DNA, and sacrifices, so that he can summon them mid battle against ITachi? Katon or Amaterasu is coming for those coffins, if not Oro. This is not old Hiruzen this is faster than Orochimaru Itachi.

Tsukyomi is instant, and no partner method stops it. Oro cannot afford to not use his eyes. Get it through your head snake sensing is not saving him from this battle, Izanami is not impractible Itachi used it on a whim against an opponent he didn't even know if he could kill. He thought of Izanami after learning he could not kill Kabuto.

Also just because he has Hashirama and Tobirama doesn't mean jack. It isn't their minds so they aren't as dangerous, granted still powerful. Hiruzen was able to defend and even seal them in the end. Itachi is much better figher all round and has a quicker and easier method of sealing.




@Turrin the gap is big enough that Madara felt he had to bring the Kyuubi... Also once again you guys are failing to realize Tiers is not A>B>C even if you give Prime Madara Rinnengan he would not win with anything under High Diff. This is indicative that Hashirama should be placed in the S+ Tier.

Name one S ranked Character that can deal with EMS Madara controlling the kyuubi.. Remember this is the library so hype and portrayal take reign over feats. Hashirama has been hyped to Nigh Rikudo Levels, and paralleled him by collecting all nine Bjuu(the Sage said one day you will be reunited again), the same man who Edo Madara whilst atop of his Perfect Susano, and Rinnengan in eye claimed Hashirama could stop him.


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## Turrin (Sep 13, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> @Turrin the gap is big enough that Madara felt he had to bring the Kyuubi...


And Hashirama brought Mito Uzamaki.


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## αce (Sep 13, 2012)

Yes he brought the Kyuubi. But the manga implied that the fight was a battle over who could control it. Hashirama took control of the Kyuubi and turned the fight around as stated. So in a sense it implies Madara had the upper hand until he lost control of the kyuubi.


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## Dr. White (Sep 13, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Yes he brought the Kyuubi. But the manga implied that the fight was a battle over who could control it. Hashirama took control of the Kyuubi and turned the fight around as stated. So in a sense it implies Madara had the upper hand until he lost control of the kyuubi.



That is not what the fight implies, the only panels we have clearly show Madara with the Kyuubi. Both he and Hashirama are bleeding and scrappy indicating a long fight, meaning Hashirama fought both of them for an extended period of time.We even see Hashirama gripping the Kyuubi with mokuton and defending from Madara. The Bjuu control technique requires touching, and the contract needs to be broken. To do this he has to touch both Madara, and the Kyuubi(as Yamato showed on KN4) to extend his energy and tame beast.

 I don't believe it was ever implied that Hashirama took control of the Kyuubi and used him. That would completely go against his character to stoop to Madara's level and abuse him. The only reason he spread the Bjuu is because he thought it would allow for a power balance and keep peace.


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## Turrin (Sep 13, 2012)

I don't see why this is even debated. It's stated in the manga that when Hashirama gained control of Kurama during the battle, Mito sealed it for him.


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## Dr. White (Sep 14, 2012)

Manga Facts:
-Hashirama's taming jutsu requires restraining of said subject and touching of it, see yamato sealing Naruto KN4.
-Hashirama fought Madara for an extended period of time, proved by both fighters visibly tired, and wounded and Hashirama attempting to restrain the Kyuubi.
-Mito helped seal Kyuubi into herself making her the first jinchuriki and placing the Kyuubi somewhere. 

No where was it stated Mito actively fought , which is highly doubtful as she would have been obliterated in the "Map changing" battle between two top tiers with extremely dangerous AOe attacks and a bjuu. 

Madara excepts whol heartedly that Hashirama bested him and admitted he was the only one who could stop Edo Madara. Manga fact, take it as you will.

Hashirama fought, tamed and controlled all 9 bjuu, take that feat as you will

All ninja clans who fought everyday of their lives in war, before ninja villages were started feared and respected Senju as the strongest. Take it as you will.

Signing off no be back tomorrow


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## Turrin (Sep 14, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> No where was it stated Mito actively fought , which is highly doubtful as she would have been obliterated in the "Map changing" battle between two top tiers with extremely dangerous AOe attacks and a bjuu.


Official Viz Translation:

Kushina, "Do you know about the battle between the first hokage lord senju Hashirama and Uchiha Madara?" "It was during that battle that in order to lend strength to lord Hashirama who had obtained the Nine tails....Lady Mito sealed the Nine tails inside herself using sealing Jutsu and became the nine tails Jinchuuriki."

So yes Uzamaki Mito was present during the battle between Hashirama and Madara, and in-order to aid Hashirama during that battle she sealed Kurama. 

So EMS Madara had Kurama and Hashirama had Mito. 

The rest of your stuff can be summarized as Hashirama > EMS Madara, which no one is disputing, however the extent to which he was superior was a slim margin. We can tell this by looking at his condition:

​
And that was before even the end of the fight, since it was before Kurama was sealed, which again is stated to have happened during the fight. If EMS Madara was able to push Hashirama that far, the tiers loose all meaning if Madara is still placed on the same tier as Hashirama after gaining Hashirama DNA/Mokuton/Chakra, Edo Tensei Bodiy, and Rinnegan.


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## Thdyingbreed (Sep 14, 2012)

Hashirama belongs in the S+ tier since if you think about it he's a lot closer to current Madara then most believe.

- He was hyped to be stronger then the Five Kages multiple times during the battle.
- He was able to defeat current Madara's strongest move the perfect Susanoo
- He also has a Byakugo equivalent like Tsunade does which is essentially ego regeneration and great regular medical ninjutsu as well.
- Kabuto hyped his power as being so strong it was considered a myth like the Sage.

Edo Madara is stronger but it would be an extreme difficulty you can make a case for Hashirama being on S+ tier if current Madara is.

Also if we go by hype/power scaling Hashirama should be on par with BM Naruto. 

Since he and Sasuke are going to be as strong as him and Madara during VOTE.

If Bm Naruto, Edo Madara, are going to be placed into S+ tier then Hashirama has to be put there as well. 

Because everything suggests he is on the same level as them unless someone can bring a valid argument to show he is a tier below them.


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## hitokugutsu (Sep 14, 2012)

As for SM Sasuke being S tier, remember it broad tiers for now

An for those who question EMS Sasuke. We know what EMS Madara was capable of with Perfect Susanoo. We can already safely put EMS Sasuke next to BM Naruto. Even if you cant see it happening now, we know he is *always* Naruto's rival/equal

Kishi follows a pretty simple linear structure with power tiers for Naruto and Sasuke

BM Naruto ~ EMS Sasuke                    ---> Previous power-up perfected
KCM Naruto ~ MS Sasuke                    ---> Minato & Itachi inheritance
SM Naruto ~ Hebi/CS2 Sasuke              ---> Sannin Inheritance
FRS Naruto ~ Kirin Sasuke (pre-Oro)     ---> Fuuton/Raiton mastered 

This is also the tier structure that Turrin I believe showed, except he also included Part I Naruto's


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## Shattering (Sep 14, 2012)

*Minato S/S+ Tier*: He was Naruto's benchmark until KCM, that's enought for me, but I'll explain:
- Top 2 speedster in the manga
- Lots of space/time jutsus
- Top tier sealing jutsus
- Badass summons
- Awesome reflexes
- Rasengan

*MS Sasuke S/S- Tier*: He is he master of Amaterasu and it has been stated as the best ninjutsu attack in the manga several times, if we add Susano'o to this combi we have a badass just here, even with his limited time of MS Spam he would be able to solo 99% of Narutoverse.
- Insane reflexes with Sharingan
- Amaterasu
- Kagutsuchi
- Good enought genjutsu skills
- Susano'o


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## Trojan (Sep 14, 2012)

> KCM Naruto ~ MS Sasuke ---> Minato & Itachi inheritance
> SM Naruto ~ Hebi/CS2 Sasuke ---> Sannin Inheritance



SM Naruto is stronger than MS Sasuke, may you explain how you put MS Sasuke equal
to KCM Naruto ?


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## Phoenix Zoro (Sep 14, 2012)

Minato is a certified S tier, feats and hype suggest that but only fanboys could suggest that he is worthy of the same tier as Tobi or Edo Madara at S+.

MS Sauce has impressive feats but was taken the whole way by danzo and wasn''t really that superior to A at kage summit. Overall I would suggest A+, EMS sauce tips him into S tier but MS is A+. He wouldn't be able to fight evenly with Minato or edo nagato so S tier is absurd to be quite honest. He is much better scaled alongside the likes of Orochimaru and the past kages who will also be A - A+ tier most likely.

VOTE: Minato
S+:
S: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Dr. White, Alex Payne, Samehada, Strategos, Ptolemy, PZ [8]
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:

VOTE: Mangekyō Sasuke (Danzō Fight)
S+:
S: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Dr. White, Strategos, Ptolemy [5]
A: Alex Payne, Samehada, PZ [3]
B:
C:
D:
E:


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## Octavian (Sep 14, 2012)

VOTE: Minato
S+:
S: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Dr. White, Alex Payne, Samehada, Strategos, Ptolemy, PZ, Octavian [9]
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:

VOTE: Mangekyō Sasuke (Danzō Fight)
S+:
S: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Dr. White, Strategos, Ptolemy [5]
A: Alex Payne, Samehada, PZ [3]
B:
C:
D:
E:

I posted my thoughts behind the vote on the first or second page.


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## StuckInADaze (Sep 14, 2012)

*Minato-S*

-Incredibly haxxed space time jutsu's 
-Main characters benchmark
-Inventened jutsus such as Rasengan and Hirashin 
-Hyped by some of the strongest characters in the manga (Jiraiya, Kakashi, Hiruzen, A)

*MS Sasuke-S*

-Took Amaterasu to a higher level than even Itachi
-Defeated the strongest of the 5 Kages
-His Susanoo boasts an extremely strong defense that also has the ability to strike at long range
-Versatility for all situations (Enton manipulation, Chidori variants, Hawk summon, high level genjutsu)

Things get a little tricky with Sasuke because there's a large gap of power from when he first achieved MS against B, and his final showing right before going blind versus Kakashi. But since his EMS showed nothing outside of what his MS should be capable of (with the Enton orb), I would think he sits pretty comfortably in the S tier, well above the Kages who are probably A tier.




TorJaN said:


> SM Naruto is stronger than MS Sasuke, may you explain how you put MS Sasuke equal
> to KCM Naruto ?



Actually, SM Naruto admitted inferiority to MS Sasuke.


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## Turrin (Sep 14, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> As for SM Sasuke being S tier, remember it broad tiers for now
> 
> An for those who question EMS Sasuke. We know what EMS Madara was capable of with Perfect Susanoo. We can already safely put EMS Sasuke next to BM Naruto. Even if you cant see it happening now, we know he is *always* Naruto's rival/equal
> 
> ...



Yeah I still think we should use Naruto as a representative, but I wouldn't use Sasuke, because not everyone agrees with Hebi Sasuke = SM Naruto. Many think MS Sasuke = SM Naruto.


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## ceralux (Sep 14, 2012)

@StuckInADaze

Naruto didn't admit inferiority, he said they would both die implying that they are equals. Kishimoto even said they were equal during his interview while the Kage Summit Arc was ongoing. He just did a poor job of illustrating that MS Sasuke and SM Naruto were both equal in strength.


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## Sniffers (Sep 14, 2012)

I agree, the main character makes the best measuring stick as the story's progression follows him. I don't think it is necessary to start the list over again though as we can just choose to add Naruto's incarnations next and then go from there.

To speed that process up we could vote on lists like _for example_ BM Naruto (S+), KCM Naruto (S), SM Naruto (A), etc. vs BM Naruto (S), KCM Naruto (S), SM Naruto (A), etc. and so on. Although that may be in violation with the previously established rule of voting on two characters at any one time.


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## StuckInADaze (Sep 14, 2012)

ceralux said:


> @StuckInADaze
> 
> Naruto didn't admit inferiority, he said they would both die implying that they are equals. Kishimoto even said they were equal during his interview while the Kage Summit Arc was ongoing. He just did a poor job of illustrating that MS Sasuke and SM Naruto were both equal in strength.



Hmmm, I seem to remember Naruto telling Neji that he couldn't defeat Sasuke as he currently was? 

I'll go double check on that.


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## Turrin (Sep 14, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> I agree, the main character makes the best measuring stick as the story's progression follows him. I don't think it is necessary to start the list over again though as we can just choose to add Naruto's incarnations next and then go from there.
> 
> To speed that process up we could vote on lists like _for example_ BM Naruto (S+), KCM Naruto (S), SM Naruto (A), etc. vs BM Naruto (S), KCM Naruto (S), SM Naruto (A), etc. and so on. Although that may be in violation with the previously established rule of voting on two characters at any one time.


I think we do need to start the list over again, because if we change all the representatives, than it will effect peoples votes. Also we need at least 10 Tiers to account for all the iterations of Naruto.


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## Krippy (Sep 14, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> As for SM Sasuke being S tier, remember it broad tiers for now
> 
> An for those who question EMS Sasuke. We know what EMS Madara was capable of with Perfect Susanoo. We can already safely put EMS Sasuke next to BM Naruto. Even if you cant see it happening now, we know he is *always* Naruto's rival/equal
> 
> ...



EMS Madara matched Hashimara's power, Kurama was defeated rather easily thanks to the properties of Mokuton.

MS Sasuke is on the same tier as Minato in terms of feats.

I also agree with your parallels.


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## Sniffers (Sep 14, 2012)

Turrin said:


> I think we do need to start the list over again, because if we change all the representatives, than it will effect peoples votes. Also we need at least 10 Tiers to account for all the iterations of Naruto.


Why would we change the representatives? My point was _adding_ the Naruto incarnations.

The tiers are broad enough to sustain multiple incarnations. When the tiers become more detailed we can put them in 'separate tiers.'


Though you are free to start a vote to restart with your representatives and see if it catches on if you disagree. You'd probably have my vote.


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## Phoenix Zoro (Sep 14, 2012)

The only problem here has arisen from where to place sasuke, forget Naruto for a second, what has Sauce done that warrants him in the same tier as Minato let alone Edo Nagato? Whether Kishi meant to highlight Hebi Sauce as SM Naruto's equal or MS Sauce as his equal is irrelevant, both are probably in the same tier anyway.


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## principito (Sep 14, 2012)

I say both are S. Given the tiers given I dont see much room for discussion about it :S



Turrin said:


> I think we do need to start the list over again, because if we change all the representatives, than it will effect peoples votes. Also we need at least 10 Tiers to account for *all the iterations of Naruto*.



I dont agree with this and (no offesne) always thought of it to be VERY dumb.....

Base Naruto, SM Naruto, Part 1 Naruto, 1 tail Naruto, 2 tail naruto, pre-timeskip Naruto..... 1.5 tails Naruto, sleepy Narutop, healthy Naruto.......

Its just plain stupid.... Naruto is Naruto..... current Naruto... Naruto today.... i see no point in adding "iterations" of ONE character.... it does not contribute...

Edo Itachi? that shit doesnt exist. Itachi is Itachi.... with all his jutsu and his low chakra.... period. Because all the edos came back VERY different from what the original character was.... kakuzu, sasori, danzo.... pieces of shit.

my two cents.... pleaso dont fuck up a list naming ONE character 10 times


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## Immortal (Sep 14, 2012)

Is there an A+ Tier? Because that's where Sasuke belongs. Minato clearly belongs on the S tier. I 100% agree with Alex Payne's vote.


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## Krippy (Sep 14, 2012)

Phoenix Zoro said:


> The only problem here has arisen from where to place sasuke, forget Naruto for a second, what has Sauce done that warrants him in the same tier as Minato let alone Edo Nagato? Whether Kishi meant to highlight Hebi Sauce as SM Naruto's equal or MS Sauce as his equal is irrelevant, both are probably in the same tier anyway.



How would Minato get past Susano'o?

Itachi has been paralleled as Minato's equal, and MS Sasuke is right at MS Itachi's level, so saying they are in the same tier is not an exaggeration by any means.


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## StuckInADaze (Sep 14, 2012)

xKantStopx said:


> How would Minato get past Susano'o?
> 
> Itachi has been paralleled as Minato's equal, and MS Sasuke is right at MS Itachi's level, so saying they are in the same tier is not an exaggeration by any means.



This. You guys are seriously downplaying MS Sasuke. Considering he defeated the strongest of the 5 Kages, and would've killed another had Gaara not interviened and all of that was before he upgraded to his current version of Susanoo. 

I'd place MS Sasuke right around Itachi level and I see no way he's not in the S tier.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Sep 14, 2012)

Minato clearly belongs in the S tier based off feats and hype. I'd put MS Sasuke in an A+ tier. EMS puts him in the S tier.


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## Trojan (Sep 14, 2012)

StuckInADaze said:


> Actually, SM Naruto admitted inferiority to MS Sasuke.



No, he did not. (=

()

Actually, I thought it was obvious that Naruto stronger than him. Even if someone has doubt it shouldn't be exist after all the benefit of SM that we
saw in Kabuto battle against MS and EMS. (=



principito said:


> I dont agree with this and (no offesne) always thought of it to be VERY dumb.....
> 
> Base Naruto, SM Naruto, Part 1 Naruto, 1 tail Naruto, 2 tail naruto, pre-timeskip Naruto..... 1.5 tails Naruto, sleepy Narutop, healthy Naruto.......
> 
> ...



I agree. (= 



xKantStopx said:


> How would Minato get past Susano'o?
> 
> Itachi has been paralleled as Minato's equal, and MS Sasuke is right at MS Itachi's level, so saying they are in the same tier is not an exaggeration by any means.



Itachi has Never Ever been paralleled as Minato's equal, Itachi stated that he is below Jiraya or at most his equal, NOT Minato.  (=


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Sep 14, 2012)

So wait, is this tier list going to branch off into sub-categories like Turrin's?


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (Sep 14, 2012)

As if all these people have voted MS Sauce for S or S-, smh. A+ all day long.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 14, 2012)

TorJaN said:


> Itachi has Never Ever been paralleled as Minato's equal, Itachi stated that he is below Jiraya or at most his equal, NOT Minato.  (=



Yes they have, EMS Sasuke was portrayed to be > Sasuke despite them having similar jutsu, just like Minato was still > KCM Naruto even though Naruto had Rasengan and near equal speed. Both men saved the world/Konoha, and are the intelligent wise young men who died for a greater cause.

Itachi never stated Jiraiya was > him that is a huge mistranslation. Check the Viz he clearly states that if those two were to fight, they would end up seriously injuring each other. This is Pt. 1 Itachi who was proven to be double spying on Konoha and Akatsuki, and was fronting everytime he was sent on a mission. Your argument holds little water. Esoecuakky since Minato called Jiraiaya the prime example of a ninja/


----------



## Trojan (Sep 14, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> Yes they have, EMS Sasuke was portrayed to be > Sasuke despite them having similar jutsu, just like Minato was still > KCM Naruto even though Naruto had Rasengan and near equal speed. Both men saved the world/Konoha, and are the intelligent wise young men who died for a greater cause.
> 
> Itachi never stated Jiraiya was > him that is a huge mistranslation. Check the Viz he clearly states that if those two were to fight, they would end up seriously injuring each other. This is Pt. 1 Itachi who was proven to be double spying on Konoha and Akatsuki, and was fronting everytime he was sent on a mission. Your argument holds little water. Esoecuakky since Minato called Jiraiaya the prime example of a ninja/



- Raw power isn't everything people must understand this already, there are a
lot of examples in this manga. However, as I said Itachi has NEVER beer paralleled as Minato's equal.

- Ok, I think I said something like this





> Itachi stated that he is below Jiraiya or at most his equal,



even if Itachi isn't weaker than Jiraiya, then for sure he isn't stronger than him, even if I doubt if Itachi knows about SM. Part 1 or not, it is part of the
story that you cannot change it, just because he's spy that doesn't change
this FACT. 


> Esoecuakky since Minato called Jiraiaya the prime example of a ninja



Indeed, he is, until now I see Jiraiya as one of the strongest and the best.
 Anyway simply, Minato > Jiraiya > Itachi.

Both of them know that.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 14, 2012)

TorJaN said:


> - Raw power isn't everything people must understand this already, there are a
> lot of examples in this manga. However, as I said Itachi has NEVER beer paralleled as Minato's equal.
> 
> - Ok, I think I said something like this
> ...



Don't choose to believe what the manga says.

False, Itachi never stated they were equal, he just acknowledged his strength. Jiraiaya has no counters for MS jutsu, or just Itachi's genjutsu in general/ Tsukuyomi GG Amaterasu GG Susano GGGGGG pick your poison.


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## Phoenix Zoro (Sep 14, 2012)

Really? Has this descended into Jiraiya, Itachi and Minato already, honestly, you guys are useless at staying on topic.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Sep 14, 2012)

I find it ironic when someone says something about believing in the manga when they themselves, confronted with the manga, will disagree with Kishimoto 10x over 

Narutoforums 2012 for you!


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 14, 2012)

Alright, so... I'd like to remind people to use the outlined voting system, or their votes will be disregarded. We'll close the poll tomorrow and begin discussion on two other characters.​


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## StuckInADaze (Sep 14, 2012)

*VOTE: Minato*
S+:
S: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Dr. White, Alex Payne, Samehada, Strategos, Ptolemy, PZ, Octavian, StuckInADaze [10]
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:

*VOTE: Mangekyō Sasuke (Danzō Fight)*
S+:
S: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Dr. White, Strategos, Ptolem, StuckInADaze [6]
A: Alex Payne, Samehada, PZ [3]
B:
C:
D:
E:

Realized I used the wrong voting system, reasoning is on the previous page.


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## Krippy (Sep 14, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> *Minato S Tier* He has the best spped in the manga due to his amazing base speed, and the instant Hirashin, he has devastating Rasengan,summon and a whole lot a fuinjutsu. No one in the A tier has a shot and the S's should be right where he is at. Portrayed to be KCM's benchmark so that is where I think he should placed.
> 
> *MS Sasuke S Tier*
> Ms Sasuke had amazing fihgting ability, he dodged a deadly combo from Bee's swords, and has access to amazing powers such as Ama, Tsukuyomi, and Susano. He is much less experienced than his brother, and this version of Sasuke had lost most of his exteme great tactical attriubutes. I was bordering on the A tier, but his mastery in such a short time will lend him the S ranking



I agree with this post. Took the words right out of my mouth.


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## Phoenix Zoro (Sep 15, 2012)

^ Dodged a deadly combo from Bee? He would have died if not for his team! He is an obvious A tier without EMS, he should not be a tier above past kages or Jiraiya and Orochimaru, its absurd.


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## Shattering (Sep 15, 2012)

VOTE: Minato[/B]
S+:
S: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Dr. White, Alex Payne, Samehada, Strategos, Ptolemy, PZ, Octavian, StuckInADaze, Shattering [11]
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:

*VOTE: Mangekyō Sasuke (Danzō Fight)*
S+:
S: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Dr. White, Strategos, Ptolem, StuckInADaze, Shattering [7]
A: Alex Payne, Samehada, PZ [3]
B:
C:
D:
E:


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## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 15, 2012)

@Strategos: Can you remove Edo Itachi and all the other crossed name from the first post.

Also I agree with Principito, we shouldn't have Edo Itachi. That is stupid, have Itachi at his prime minus Edo Tensei. 

I don't see MS Sasuke on the same level as Minato, I see him on S- tier and Minato on S tier. 

Minato is or was the main character benchmark. He has the most hax jutsu in the manga and invented Rasengan, the primary offensive jutsu for Naruto. His hype and feats places him on S tier.

MS Sasuke feats places him on S tier. He defeated Raikage without fully mastering his MS, his susano has good defense and has the ability to strike long range. His obviously S tier with MS that he can spam more than Itachi.

*VOTE: Minato*
S+:
S: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Dr. White, Alex Payne, Samehada, Strategos, Ptolemy, PZ, Octavian, StuckInADaze, Shattering, KH [12]
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:

*VOTE: Mangekyō Sasuke (Danzō Fight)*
S+:
S: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Dr. White, Strategos, Ptolem, StuckInADaze, Shattering, KH [8]
A: Alex Payne, Samehada, PZ [3]
B:
C:
D:
E:


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## Krippy (Sep 15, 2012)

*VOTE: Minato*
S+:
S: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Dr. White, Alex Payne, Samehada, Strategos, Ptolemy, PZ, Octavian, StuckInADaze, Shattering, KH, xKantStopx [13]
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:

*VOTE: Mangekyō Sasuke (Danzō Fight)*
S+:
S: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Dr. White, Strategos, Ptolem, StuckInADaze, Shattering, KH, xKantStopx [9]
A: Alex Payne, Samehada, PZ [3]
B:
C:
D:
E:


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## GaaraFromTheHood (Sep 15, 2012)

*VOTE: Minato*
S+:
S: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Dr. White, Alex Payne, Samehada, Strategos, Ptolemy, PZ, Octavian, StuckInADaze, Shattering, KH, xKantStopx, GaarafromtheHood [14]
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:

*VOTE: Mangekyō Sasuke (Danzō Fight)*
S+:
S: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Dr. White, Strategos, Ptolem, StuckInADaze, Shattering, KH, xKantStopx [9]
A: Alex Payne, Samehada, PZ, GaarafromtheHood [4]
B:
C:
D:
E:

For Minato I personally disagree in the whole benchmark for the main character rationale: the main character needs to defeat the last boss, and while a benchmark is nice to be inspired and overcome, doesn't mean anything when there are plenty of other characters to judge. He stands on his own as  a genius with unparallelled intelligence in creating multiple A and S rank jutsus, extensive seal knowledge, adept at fighting against many opponents or just one, on the top-level of speed for anyone we've seen in the manga, renowned across the Naruto world in his time (official instructions: if you see the Yellow Flash, run away!!), Hokage at a very young age with a great Hokage in place already, fought and had the upper hand on Tobi/Obito before the fighting stopped, fended off the Kyubii's strongest attack and sealed half of its chakra, thus stopping it. Safely on the *S tier*. 

Mangekyō Sasuke: for me, he fought and defeated Danzo, but frankly it was a very close fight. I mean, it's the same story with Sasuke in part 2, close calls over and over, from Deidara (that teleport using Manda to barely escape), to Killer Bee (needing all the help from Hebi) Raikage (he was a goner if not for Gaara) Mei (Zetsu to the rescue, otherwise he's gone) and Tsuchikage (I still don't understand how Tobi rescued him from that). So while he's VERY smart and tactical, has great jutsus and great stamina, he still doesn't win easily, and I think the people in the S tier are all overpowering and able to defeat strong opponents easily. Put it this way, (I know it's theoretical, but bear with me) can anybody see him defeating Itachi if he came to their fight with EMS? I still think Itachi's Susanoo's takes him down easily. Soooo based on all of that, I think he's knocking on the door of the S tier at this point in time, but he's not quite there yet.


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## hitokugutsu (Sep 16, 2012)

So....aint it time for 2 new characters?

I think MS Sasuke & Minato are covered by now


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## Sadgoob (Sep 16, 2012)

Yeah, the entire process will last 72 hours from the first poll, I think. Feel free to suggest two new characters and get the ball rolling on though.


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## BringerOfCarnage (Sep 16, 2012)

*VOTE: Minato*
S+:
S: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Dr. White, Alex Payne, Samehada, Strategos, Ptolemy, PZ, Octavian, StuckInADaze, Shattering, KH, xKantStopx, GaarafromtheHood, BringerOfCarnage [15]
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:

*VOTE: Mangekyō Sasuke (Danzō Fight)*
S+:
S: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Dr. White, Strategos, Ptolem, StuckInADaze, Shattering, KH, xKantStopx [9]
A: Alex Payne, Samehada, PZ, GaarafromtheHood, BringerOfCarnage [5]
B:
C:
D:
E:

The only reason I've put Sasuke in The 'A' Tier is because putting him in 'S' will cause a lot of problems later (when discussing those stronger than him and weaker than BM Naruto, Tobi, Madara, etc)


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## hitokugutsu (Sep 16, 2012)

BringerOfCarnage said:


> *VOTE: Minato*
> S+:
> S: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Dr. White, Alex Payne, Samehada, Strategos, Ptolemy, PZ, Octavian, StuckInADaze, Shattering, KH, xKantStopx, GaarafromtheHood, BringerOfCarnage [15]
> A:
> ...



Yeah but we are still gonna divide S tier later on 

Anyway for suggesting 2 new characters I suggest for KillerBee & Prime Hanzo


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## Shattering (Sep 16, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> Yeah but we are still gonna divide S tier later on
> 
> Anyway for suggesting 2 new characters I suggest for KillerBee & Prime Hanzo



I would say, discuss characters that will no longer appear in the manga in flashbacks or fights, Itachi could still appear for example, so don't discuss him, Danzo are Hanzo for example will no longer appear.


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## Sniffers (Sep 16, 2012)

This thread is dying. The pace is too low. We should allow more characters to be discussed at once. Also, I'd suggest discussing Naruto's incarnations as they can form a good guide line to judge other characters.


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## BringerOfCarnage (Sep 16, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> Yeah but we are still gonna divide S tier later on
> 
> Anyway for suggesting 2 new characters I suggest for KillerBee & Prime Hanzo



I still feel that MS Sasuke to Rinnegan Madara covers a very large range of power levels, but meh...

I second Killer Bee and Prime Hanzo.


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## DonutKid (Sep 16, 2012)

how about using low kage level, elite jounin level demi god tier etc as rank?

cause there are too much people in the same tier/ power levels range is too huge. eg: tsunade and edo nagato only a tier apart.


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## hitokugutsu (Sep 16, 2012)

DonutKid said:


> how about using low kage level, elite jounin level demi god tier etc as rank?
> 
> cause there are too much people in the same tier/ power levels range is too huge. eg: tsunade and edo nagato only a tier apart.



That is exactly the point of this thread

Turrin already tried it with the thread tier list with shit load of subdivisions and it didnt work back then either. Thats why keep this *broad tiers for now*

Later on we will divide tiers in + & -



Imo only other option would also be what Sniffers & Turrin also suggested, using Naruto's progress as tiers:
- FRS Naruto
- SM Naruto
- KCM Naruto
- BM Naruto

Basically these above 4 tiers ALL represent Kage level, from low Kage to High Kage

FRS Naruto ~ early part II Kakashi (he was already low Kage level and Hokage material)
SM Naruto ~ Jiraya (Kage level)
KCM Naruto ~ Minato (high Kage level)
BM Naruto ~ Hashirama (haxx Kage level)

But sofar this thread is working fine, except its a bit slow


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## DonutKid (Sep 16, 2012)

FRS naruto kage level?


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## Tir (Sep 16, 2012)

Jiraiya > Itachi is manga canon. Dont see why people try to say otherwise. The best he could do is stalemate him and even if the number rise ( Kisame) that wouldnt change the result. 

Minato is S+ Imo. Should be equal if not higher than BM Nardo. The few latest chapters prove it.


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## αce (Sep 16, 2012)

Minato is not S+
Don't make the disparity in strengths in that particular tier any more confusing than it already is.

We honestly need an A+ tier. Don't know why it wasn't added. Sasuke is going to be put in S tier, which means EMS Sasuke by direct comparison is going to be S+.

Now compare that with Madara who is also S+.
Too much of a disparity.SM and MS Sasuke should be atop the A+ tier.


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## Tir (Sep 16, 2012)

Then where would you put Madara, Tobi, and BM Nardo?


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## 24 Hours (Sep 16, 2012)

*Tier 1*
SOTSP

*Tier 2*
Madara, (BM) Naruto

*Tier 3*
Obito, KCM Naruto, Hashirama, Minato, Nagato, Itachi, Sasuke


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## Wizard (Sep 16, 2012)

Minato and Sasuke are both in the S class.


----------



## αce (Sep 16, 2012)

The way I see it? All three of those characters belong in the S+ tier with the current system. In this order: Madara, Tobi, Naruto. 

However, the problem with that is the fact that Madara's other variation, EMS Madara, also belongs in that tier if he has the full Kyuubi in his disposal, as that's the sole reason that Naruto is also so strong. So that means that EMS Madara and Rinnegan Madara would be in the same tier. See the problem? EMS Madara is no where near Rinnegan Madara. 

It's a giant clusterfuck. I really think an A+ tier should have been added and we might have to put characters like Rinnegan Madara and Kabuto w/ ET in their own special tier above the rest. *Rinnegan Madara creates too much of a disparity of whatever tier he's in. As does Kabuto.
*
In my opinion it should be.

*Special Tier* (Is within the range of S+ tier, but are the upper part of it. They create too much of a skill difference in the S+ tier.)

Madara With Hashirama's abilities and the Rinnegan
Kabuto with Edo Tensei
*
S+ Tier*
Obito
BM Naruto 
Hashirama
EMS Madara
EMS Sasuke (If MS Sasuke is S tier)

*S tier*
Nagato
Minato
Itachi
etc.


----------



## Wizard (Sep 16, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> The way I see it? All three of those characters belong in the S+ tier with the current system. In this order: Madara, Tobi, Naruto.
> 
> However, the problem with that is the fact that Madara's other variation, EMS Madara, also belongs in that tier if he has the full Kyuubi in his disposal, as that's the sole reason that Naruto is also so strong. So that means that EMS Madara and Rinnegan Madara would be in the same tier. See the problem? EMS Madara is no where near Rinnegan Madara.
> 
> ...



I don't think EMS justifies Sasuke's position in the S+ tier. All he got was a new Amaterasu technique. He could already do a lot of damage with Enton. Furthermore, Itachi is suggested to have the better performance against Kabuto despite having a lower ocular power.


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## αce (Sep 16, 2012)

Yes, he had the better performance but only because he had the necessary jutsu to take out Kabuto without killing him. Sasuke's arsenal is too lethal, he couldn't do anything without hindering Itachi's plan of ending the Edo Tensei. It was implied several times that Sasuke could have killed Kabuto in that fight had he chose too.

We haven't seen his full arsenal, but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that he jumped a tier. If not then EMS Sasuke should be atop the S-tier.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Sep 16, 2012)

Tier 1:
Rikudo
His two sons - Just put them here since we can only guess

Tier 2:
Madara(Rinnegan)

Tier 3:
Tobi (Rinnegan)
Madara(EMS)
Hashirama
Kabuto - On the low end without Edo 

Tier 4:
Nagato
Tobi(pre Rinnegan)
Minato

Tier 5)
Jiraiya
Itachi
Danzo
Bee
Muu
Oonoki
Tobirama
Gaara
Orochimaru
Tsunade(taken her over all medic ability into account)

Tier 6:
Tsunade -Just her battle abilities)
Raikage
Kisame
Gai
Kakashi

Left out Naruto and Sasuke.

In Tier 5 I could even break that down into sub groups really


----------



## αce (Sep 16, 2012)

Really should have just done number tiers


----------



## GaaraFromTheHood (Sep 16, 2012)

Guys, we are not discussing the tier system anymore, we already did that and voted for this system in the previous thread by Turrin. The system we have is broad categories which will be subdivided into more specific ones AFTER we select poster boys for each of the categories as guidance. That's where we are now. If we start debating on the best formula, the thread will die like Turrin's thread. Can we stay on topic, and Strat and admins enforce?

Also, I suggest we use easy, non-controversial people to differentiate the tiers. I suggest we use Jiraiya and maybe Yamato or Hidan, who should be A and B tier respectively.


----------



## αce (Sep 16, 2012)

They better be subdivided or this is gonna die just as badly. Anyways, Jiraiya is already controversial.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 16, 2012)

Let's discuss 3 characters from now on.

Jiraiya
Haku
Aoba

*Vote: *
Yes: KH [1]
No:


----------



## GaaraFromTheHood (Sep 16, 2012)

Let's pick the two or three with the highest votes for discussion.

*Jiraiya*: GaarafromtheHood, Kakashi Hatake

*Yamato:* GaarafromtheHood

*Haku*: Kakashi Hatake

*Aoba*: Kakashi Hatake


----------



## hitokugutsu (Sep 16, 2012)

DonutKid said:


> FRS naruto kage level?



FRS Naruto had "surpassed" Kakaashi at that time. And this is the same Kakashi that Tsunade & Jiraya were discussing couple o chapters later, who was fit enough to become Hokage should the need arise
FRS Naruto obviously lacks finesse and finer skills to compete with Kakashi for Hokage title, but he has the raw skill.



♠Ace♠ said:


> Minato is not S+
> Don't make the disparity in strengths in that particular tier any more confusing than it already is.
> 
> We honestly need an A+ tier. Don't know why it wasn't added. Sasuke is going to be put in S tier, which means EMS Sasuke by direct comparison is going to be S+.
> ...



We dont need A+ tier

Rinnegan Madara just needs his own tier above the ones already created. I already mentioned this to Strategoob. Since its obvious Rinnegan Madara > BM Naruto by far

At best OP needs to create a Z tier or something specifically for Edo Madara. Other tiers can then stay that way

As for Obito being S+ or (hypothetical) Z tier, thats the bigger question, one that hopefully upcoming chapters will answer


----------



## ThunderRaikage (Sep 16, 2012)

rinnegan obito>edo madara ? he is above on the same tier ????


----------



## αce (Sep 16, 2012)

Yeah, Madara needs his own tier. As does the Rikudou if he's included in this.


----------



## ThunderRaikage (Sep 16, 2012)

^ madara tier ! 
For me is good where he is,but please put him above tobi pain -.-


----------



## Punished Pathos (Sep 16, 2012)

Kimimaro= A-Tier


----------



## Shattering (Sep 16, 2012)

*GUYS PLEASE* stop the off-topic, stop posting your tier list, stop talking about anything else than Minato/MS Sasuke at this moment, *DON'T RUIN THE FUC*KING THREAD*, let the guys managing this dictate the direction of the debate.

Thx


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 16, 2012)

GaaraFromTheHood said:


> Let's pick the two or three with the highest votes for discussion.
> 
> *Jiraiya*: GaarafromtheHood, Kakashi Hatake
> 
> ...



I suggest people use this to vote on the next 3 characters to discuss. 

Instead of discussing two characters at a time, we should discuss 3 characters to speed this up and keep the interest in. 

We can discuss all the characters which are less popular at once. I'm talking about characters which are less known and are more likely to end up in C, D and onward tier. No point of discussing two/three of them at a time then the interest in this tier thread will be lost.


----------



## GaaraFromTheHood (Sep 16, 2012)

Shattering said:


> *GUYS PLEASE* stop the off-topic, stop posting your tier list, stop talking about anything else than Minato/MS Sasuke at this moment, *DON'T RUIN THE FUC*KING THREAD*, let the guys managing this dictate the direction of the debate.
> 
> Thx



This....says it all.


----------



## hitokugutsu (Sep 16, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> I suggest people use this to vote on the next 3 characters to discuss.
> 
> Instead of discussing two characters at a time, we should discuss 3 characters to speed this up and keep the interest in.
> 
> We can discuss all the characters which are less popular at once. I'm talking about characters which are less known and are more likely to end up in C, D and onward tier. No point of discussing two/three of them at a time then the interest in this tier thread will be lost.



Yeah I also think 3 people at once would speed up the process

But now we're *voting* to choose a character to discuss. Which is just as annoying because the entire voting process will take tedious amount of time 

OP should just mention 3 characters who are up for discussing. We can PM him or something like that for suggestions but he just mention 3 characters. Works a lot faster then voting for people who're we gonna discuss


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 16, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> Yeah I also think 3 people at once would speed up the process
> 
> But now we're *voting* to choose a character to discuss. Which is just as annoying because the entire voting process will take tedious amount of time
> 
> OP should just mention 3 characters who are up for discussing. We can PM him or something like that for suggestions but he just mention 3 characters. Works a lot faster then voting for people who're we gonna discuss



We have been discussing Minato and MS Sasuke for 3 days, we could have discussed about these 2 characters in 2 days and spent the third day [24 hours] voting on the characters to discuss. 

Or we can do it at once.

Discuss about the current character and then vote on the next set of characters to vote on. Which is imo best option. 

So something like this...

Minato: 
S+: KH, [1]
S:
A:
_Give reason_

Then vote on the next set of characters to vote.

Jiraiya: KH [1]
Yamato:

Something like that, so we discuss on the current character placement on the tier list and also vote on the characters we want to discuss next.


----------



## InfusionZ (Sep 16, 2012)

Minato S

MS Sasuke A


----------



## hitokugutsu (Sep 16, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> We have been discussing Minato and MS Sasuke for 3 days, we could have discussed about these 2 characters in 2 days and spent the third day [24 hours] voting on the characters to discuss.
> 
> Or we can do it at once.
> 
> ...



I'm fine with either option. As long as we've something to discuss

If I have to choose 3 characters: Hanzo Prime, Killer Bee & Gai


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 16, 2012)

Asuma, Itachi, and Kakashi


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 16, 2012)

Updated votes. We can close this in 24 hours. We discuss the three characters with the most votes after 24 hours. If however, we don't have the 3 characters with the most votes where all or most characters have the same number of votes, OP or anyone else can randomly choose the character out of them to discuss. 



> Vote or nominate the next 3 characters to discuss.
> 
> *Jiraiya:* GaarafromtheHood, Kakashi Hatake [2]
> *Yamato:* GaarafromtheHood [1]
> ...


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 16, 2012)

We should mull over Bijū Mode Naruto, Itachi, and Killer Bee since they were already voted to be on the list, and then removed. I'd like to expedite a discussion about them, and we can implement Hatake's idea to toss in who you would like to discuss next while voting. This will save us some time.

​


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 16, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> A giant fucking Meteor is baisis for that statement.


unless this meteor is stronger than perfect susano then it isnt doing anything to hashirama. anything that isnt on the destructive capability of perfect susano wont come close to killing hashirama. does current madara or any form of madara have any tech that is stronger than perfect susano? no he doesnt. your argument is invalid.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 16, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> We should mull over Bijū Mode Naruto, Itachi, and Killer Bee since they were already voted to be on the list, and then removed. I'd like to expedite a discussion about them, and we can implement Hatake's idea to toss in who you would like to discuss next while voting. This will save us some time.
> 
> ​



That would be good idea to discuss about them 3 characters and at the same time vote on the next 3 set of characters to discuss. 

Its your call.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 16, 2012)

Alright, let's do that then. I think Itachi and Killer Bee should be *S* and that Naruto should be *S+*. I think Itachi and Killer Bee are fairly self-explanatory, so I'll discuss Naruto first.

Full Kurama Naruto, while not shown to be as strong as Madara or Obito _yet_, he is definitely a tier above the individuals in the *S* tier in power and portrayal at this point, in my opinion.

Nagato himself was struggling against 89% Kurama, so Naruto channeling 100% into clones, Hiraishin-flickers, and chakra blasts that can overwhelm multiple tailed beasts at once tips the scale.

Moreover, Nagato couldn't move well, so I don't see him having much of a chance, and I feel he performed as well as he did against Bee and Kurama Chakra Mode Naruto _only to make Itachi look good._​


----------



## Shattering (Sep 16, 2012)

1? I think that discuss about 3 characters that 99% are going to get new feats/hype in the manga is an error, but ok... let's do it now, and repeat it again in a few monts 

2? What Itachi??? healthy Itachi, the version of Itachi we saw against Sasuke?Edo Itachi? they are different in my book.


----------



## eyeknockout (Sep 16, 2012)

minato S
sasuke A+

next to be voted:

itachi S
naruto S+ 
Killer bee A+


----------



## Tir (Sep 16, 2012)

Itachi is B to A. 
While he's strong, Itachi in all of his main fight relies too much in MS. Not necessarily bad, but given on how weak his body is, he won't stand a chance against many shinobi. Even the healthy him got tired after one use of Amaterasu. Don't start with lolgenjutsu.


Nagato A or A+
He has the raw firepower. His lack of mobility is a major problem but given his stamina and Rinnegan don't hurt his wielder, he's definitely above Itachi.

Jiraiya A or A+
His stamina and raw physical power make it up. Not to mention his SM basically has unlimited amount of time (compared to Naruto).


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 16, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> Moreover, Nagato couldn't move well, so I don't see him having much of a chance, and I feel he performed as well as he did against Bee and Kurama Chakra Mode Naruto _only to make Itachi look good._​



Itachi didn't really fight Nagato, he just ambushed him a couple times while Naruto and Bee kept Nagato busy. I will say that Naruto and Bee underperformed, especially Naruto whom magically forgot all of Nagato's abilities and not only didn't use his full potential but was actually weaker since dividing all of Kurama's chakra into his dozen Shadow Clones beforehand. It also didn't help that Naruto's and Bee's Bijuu powers are pretty much purely chakra-based, and Nagato absorbs chakra like a sponge.



Shattering said:


> 2? What Itachi??? healthy Itachi, the version  of Itachi we saw against Sasuke?Edo Itachi? they are different in my  book.



"Healthy" Itachi is an Itachi either without MS or before he mastered it, which is pretty much 13 y/o and under Itachi.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 16, 2012)

Lol at above post

Anyway Itachi is S Tier no doubt. He let Hebi Sasuke win and even then destroyed him and Oro pretty bad, Kisame was inferior to him and he was hailed as a genius by many. One of the only people posing a threat to sharingan Tobi as well. His edo feats greatly bolstered his rections, speed and strength and his MS use is amazing. Kishi portrayed both Kabuto (w/out Edo Tensei) and EMS Sasuke and had him save the Gokage from Perfect Susano-o, and the rest of the Edo's.

Killer B is S, before Naruto he was the only perfect Jin. In base he has amazing speed and reactions, and can use raiton 7 sword style to slice and dice. V1 bjuu mode allows him lariat and slight tentacle ability and ups his stats. Full bjuu mode can swipe portions of forest away, and his Bjuu bomb is obviously dangerous.

BM Naruto is on the border of S and S+. He has amazing power and speed unheard of but he is still unexperienced and can only hold the form for 5 min. Edo Madara isn't the least worried about catching both Hachibi and Kyuubi, and he is in the S+ Tier so for right now I will bestow Naruto the benefit of the doubt for his Bjuu deflecting/Bjuu bomb matching feats, and speed but it is subject to change.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 16, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Itachi didn't really fight Nagato, he just ambushed him a couple times while Naruto and Bee kept Nagato busy. I will say that Naruto and Bee underperformed, especially Naruto whom magically forgot all of Nagato's abilities and not only didn't use his full potential but was actually weaker since dividing all of Kurama's chakra into his dozen Shadow Clones beforehand. It also didn't help that Naruto's and Bee's Bijuu powers are pretty much purely chakra-based, and Nagato absorbs chakra like a sponge.



I agree with you.


----------



## shintebukuro (Sep 16, 2012)

Honestly, putting characters in broad tiers like this should be a really quick process. There's not even much to discuss, honestly, outside of complications that the tier list itself presents and perhaps a few controversial things.

The real shit doesn't come until we break down the tiers further and further. This stage is boring, and we should get it over with.


And by the way, you know the tiers are too broad (like I said they were) when people are already taking the initiative to create "A+." 


I also specified that the reasoning to dictate where you would place a character should *not* be feats placed in a vacuum. Arguing for Sasuke's tier should *not* consist of "Well, he's got good offense and defense. His genjutsu is really good, and he has 2 elements." All of that information is arbitrary and irrelevant to how Sasuke stands in relation to other characters.

But I guess that's the only reasoning you could use with such broad tiers.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 16, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> Lol at above post
> 
> Anyway Itachi is S Tier no doubt. He let Hebi Sasuke win and even then destroyed him and Oro pretty bad, Kisame was inferior to him and he was hailed as a genius by many. One of the only people posing a threat to sharingan Tobi as well. His edo feats greatly bolstered his rections, speed and strength and his MS use is amazing. Kishi portrayed both Kabuto (w/out Edo Tensei) and EMS Sasuke and had him save the Gokage from Perfect Susano-o, and the rest of the Edo's.



Lol at post. 

He let Sasuke win, but Itachi in no way shape or form "destroyed" Sasuke at all, and this Sasuke was still weaker than _sick_ Orochimaru as suggested by Karin; and even with EMS is still suggested to be at risk against Orochimaru. 
Orochimaru was weakened in their encounters, dying the first time and didn't have all of his jutsu or had killing intent (credit which you give to Itachi against Sasuke but hypocritically not Orochimaru against Itachi) not to mention needed to make eye contact for his soul transfer, the second time aside from having almost no chakra he also didn't have his arms, and Orochimaru also couldn't move since he was stuck to Sasuke and let his guard down since he didn't deem Susanoo's oversized sword as a threat.


----------



## Ezekial (Sep 16, 2012)

Obito & Naruto above Madara? Yeah this list is retarded


----------



## Tir (Sep 16, 2012)

Actually, we don't know how strong not edo and not Hashirama's cell Madara is. Putting him above BM Naruto wouldn't be fair.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 16, 2012)

Tir said:


> Actually, we don't know how strong not edo and not Hashirama's cell Madara is. Putting him above BM Naruto wouldn't be fair.



Well take away Mokuton and chakra absorption then EMS Madara can do everything we've seen Edo Madara do... and we still haven't seen him use his other two MS jutsus, which are implied to be Tsukiyomi and most likely Amaterasu.


----------



## shintebukuro (Sep 16, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Obito & Naruto above Madara? Yeah this list is retarded



.....They're not listed above Madara.


Again, take some time to read and absorb and think before you post.


----------



## Tir (Sep 16, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Well take away Mokuton and chakra absorption then EMS Madara can do everything we've seen Edo Madara do... and we still haven't seen him use his other two MS jutsus, which are implied to be Tsukiyomi and most likely Amaterasu.



But all of his jutsu are amplified by the mokuton. The fact that he almost lost to Gaara, and Naruto ( there was someone else but I'm not too sure)teaming up at him (Rinnegan is a bitch) wouldn't put him above BM Naruto.


----------



## DonutKid (Sep 16, 2012)

played too much naruto. always have the impression that tsunade is S class. 




hitokugutsu said:


> FRS Naruto had "surpassed" Kakaashi at that time. And this is the same Kakashi that Tsunade & Jiraya were discussing couple o chapters later, who was fit enough to become Hokage should the need arise
> FRS Naruto obviously lacks finesse and finer skills to compete with Kakashi for Hokage title, but he has the raw skill.



nah. FRS is a stronger version of rasengan, that's about it. it doesn't really change anything, since a straight rasengan is also lethal; the problem is connecting it with your opponent's body. 

also, word also don't really count, and that 'surpass' is vague. he just manages to learn something that kakashi/minato can't; i doubt kakashi would be defeated by FRS naruto. and i remember fukasaku said something like SM naruto surpassed jiraiya/minato.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 16, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Lol at post.
> 
> He let Sasuke win, but Itachi in no way shape or form "destroyed" Sasuke at all, and this Sasuke was still weaker than _sick_ Orochimaru as suggested by Karin; and even with EMS is still suggested to be at risk against Orochimaru.
> Orochimaru was weakened in their encounters, dying the first time and didn't have all of his jutsu or had killing intent (credit which you give to Itachi against Sasuke but hypocritically not Orochimaru against Itachi) not to mention needed to make eye contact for his soul transfer, the second time aside from having almost no chakra he also didn't have his arms, and Orochimaru also couldn't move since he was stuck to Sasuke and let his guard down since he didn't deem Susanoo's oversized sword as a threat.



I wasn't referring to your post. The one above yours.

-It was made clear if Itachi was serious the fight would have ended at the door. Orochimaru had a nine headed summon, and was prepping Kusanagi and was taken down with low diff after Itachi purposefully abused his MS.

-Orochimaru was not weakened when he fought Itachi. Orochimaru never had a great host body so that is like saying he was weakened his whole life. Oro lost to Itachi point blank Orochimaru didn't have to take his body right there, as Kabuto showed and as Orochimaru showed on his frst attempts at Sasuke if he could have he would capture or incapacitate him, all we know his Oro came at Itachi and got caught in a measly sharingan genjutsu, then got his arm cot off and had to flee akatsuki. Portrayal is portryal and you are just trying to dehype Itachi.

-It is completely different in Itachi's situation. Itachi planned 100% to die in that fight but push Sasuke far enough and keep his act on until the end. Orchimaru on the other hand wanted Itachi 100% and would gain his body by any means. After he planned a method he tried it and lost, stop making up excuses for Oro getting stomped, Kishi showed him stomping Orochimaru twice and then beating his perfect potential in a match of smarts in Kabuto for a reason just accept it.


----------



## StuckInADaze (Sep 16, 2012)

Soooo.... What are we voting on again? :S


----------



## Tir (Sep 16, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> I wasn't referring to your post. The one above yours.
> 
> -It was made clear if Itachi was serious the fight would have ended at the door. Orochimaru had a nine headed summon, and was prepping Kusanagi and was taken down with low diff after Itachi purposefully abused his MS.
> 
> ...



Subjective. You're trying to hard to compensate for Itachi's weaknesses. I don't like Itachi but I will never downplay him. The thing with your post can be answe3red that he took drug to extend his life. A desperate fight. Because healthy Itachi as in manga vol 17 clearly exhausted just by using Amaterasu just once. 

Take out his very low stamina and MS negative effects and he'll be in S tier.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 16, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Honestly, putting characters in broad tiers like this should be a really quick process. There's not even much to discuss, honestly, outside of complications that the tier list itself presents and perhaps a few controversial things.
> 
> The real shit doesn't come until we break down the tiers further and further. This stage is boring, and we should get it over with.
> 
> ...



Is this all addressed at me? Because if it is, you didn't read my reasoning concerning Sasuke in its entirety. And I'm fine with speeding up the process if the poll isn't close and nobody objects to an early finish. Feel free to take the initiative in such cases yourself.​


----------



## Inferno (Sep 16, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Obito & Naruto above Madara? Yeah this list is retarded



Full power Obito > Madara.

6 Bijuus/Immortal Jinchuurikis + Gedo Mazo + Obito > Madara.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 16, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> Alright, let's do that then. I think Itachi and Killer Bee should be *S* and that Naruto should be *S+*. I think Itachi and Killer Bee are fairly self-explanatory, so I'll discuss Naruto first.
> 
> Full Kurama Naruto, while not shown to be as strong as Madara or Obito _yet_, he is definitely a tier above the individuals in the *S* tier in power and portrayal at this point, in my opinion.
> 
> ...



Bijū Mode Naruto

*S+* Strat [1]
*S*
*A*
*B*

Itachi

*S+* 
*S* Strat [1]
*A*
*B*

Killer Bee

*S+*
*S* Strat [1]
*A*
*B*


----------



## Tir (Sep 16, 2012)

BM Naruto---->S+
Itachi------>A
B------->A to S
MS Sasuke------>B
SM Naruto-----> B


----------



## DonutKid (Sep 16, 2012)

BM-S+
itachi-S
Bee- S

kinda weird cause A rank in narutoverse means jonin level. and obviously bee is higher than that.




Tir said:


> BM Naruto---->S+
> Itachi------>A
> B------->A to S
> MS Sasuke------>B
> SM Naruto-----> B



make up your mind. he can't accept your vote if you put A/S.


----------



## Tir (Sep 17, 2012)

DonutKid said:


> BM-S+
> itachi-S
> Bee- A
> 
> ...



In BM he's obviously close to S+ . In base, he's about the same as Itachi thus I put it that way. Might as well him in S. 

Am I the only one thinking Itachi should be A?


----------



## DonutKid (Sep 17, 2012)

Tir said:


> In BM he's obviously close to S+ . In base, he's about the same as Itachi thus I put it that way. Might as well him in S.
> 
> Am I the only one thinking Itachi should be A?



lol you mean bee?

up to your own opinion.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 17, 2012)

Minato S

Sasuke S-

Kirabi A+

Itachi S

Naruto S


----------



## Rain (Sep 17, 2012)

*Bijū Mode Naruto*

S+ Strat, Shattering, [2]
S Falkirion [1]
A
B

*Itachi*

S+ Shattering [1]
S Strat, Falkirion [2]
A
B

*Killer Bee*
S+
S Strat, Shattering,  [2]
A Falkirion [1]
B


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 17, 2012)

*Bijū Mode Naruto*

S+ Strat, Shattering, KH [3]
S Falkirion [1]
A
B

*Itachi*

S+ Shattering[1]
S Strat, Falkirion, KH [3]
A
B

*Killer Bee*
S+
S Strat, Shattering, KH [3]
A Falkirion [1]
B


----------



## BringerOfCarnage (Sep 17, 2012)

*Bijū Mode Naruto*

S+ Strat, Shattering, KH, BringerOfCarnage [4]
S Falkirion [1]
A
B

*Itachi*

S+ Shattering[1]
S Strat, Falkirion, KH, BringerOfCarnage [4]
A
B

*Killer Bee*
S+
S Strat, Shattering, KH, BringerOfCarnage [4]
A Falkirion [1]
B


----------



## Tir (Sep 17, 2012)

*Bijū Mode Naruto*

S+ Strat, Shattering, KH, BringerOfCarnage, Tir [5]
S Falkirion [1]
A
B

*Itachi*

S+ Shattering[1]
S Strat, Falkirion, KH, BringerOfCarnage [4]
A Tir [1]
B

*Killer Bee*
S+
S Strat, Shattering, KH, BringerOfCarnage, Tir [5]
A Falkirion [1]
B

Dunno why some said Itachi dances around RM and Bee and put him in S when I'm not allowed to say Minato did more than BM Naruto, Kakashi, and Gai combined against Tobi.

SMH.

edit: weak neg is weak :hestonlaugh


----------



## Krippy (Sep 17, 2012)

*Bijū Mode Naruto*

S+ Strat, Shattering, KH, BringerOfCarnage, Tir, xKantStopx [6]
S Falkirion [1]
A
B

*Itachi*

S+ Shattering[1]
S Strat, Falkirion, KH, BringerOfCarnage, xKantStopx [5]
A Tir [1]
B

*Killer Bee*
S+
S Strat, Shattering, KH, BringerOfCarnage, Tir, xKantStopx [6]
A Falkirion [1]
B


----------



## Turrin (Sep 17, 2012)

There is no way BM Naruto should be above Minato. Even with Kakashi, B, and Gai's help he he still hasn't been able to do as well against Tobi's Kamui as Minato.


----------



## Octavian (Sep 17, 2012)

*Bijū Mode Naruto*

S+ Strat, Shattering, KH, BringerOfCarnage, Tir, xKantStopx, Octavian [7]
S Falkirion [1]
A
B

*Itachi*

S+ Shattering[1]
S Strat, Falkirion, KH, BringerOfCarnage, xKantStopx, Octavian [6]
A Tir [1]
B

*Killer Bee*
S+
S Strat, Shattering, KH, BringerOfCarnage, Tir, xKantStopx [6]
A Falkirion [1]
B


----------



## Sniffers (Sep 17, 2012)

*Bijū Mode Naruto*

S+ Strat, Shattering, KH, BringerOfCarnage, Tir, xKantStopx, Octavian, Sniffers [8]
S Falkirion [1]
A
B

*Itachi*

S+ Shattering[1]
S Strat, Falkirion, KH, BringerOfCarnage, xKantStopx, Octavian, Sniffers [7]
A Tir [1]
B

*Killer Bee*
S+
S Strat, Shattering, KH, BringerOfCarnage, Tir, xKantStopx, Sniffers [7]
A Falkirion [1]
B


*Reasoning*
With BM Naruto wields the power Minato left him to do that which Minato could not and since Kulama by itself is easily S-tier, I think adding Naruto to the mix makes them S+-tier. This is a duo being ranked after all.

Itachi is to Sasuke what Minato is to Naruto; the true benchmarks. They are both unparalleled geniuses who seemingly wield the power of plot as well. As per my argument for Minato, Itachi should really only be weaker than the end-game main characters and the final villain(s). The S-tier is an obvious choice. With the Edo boost Itachi even seemed to rival Edo Nagato as he was the primary reason why the latter got sealed.

Another duo. Killer B alone beat A's lariat. Adding Gyuki to mix just should make a tier difference from A. He did fight on the level of KCM Naruto, Itachi and Nagato (although he looked the weakest). So I'd say he just barely makes it to the S-tier.





Turrin said:


> There is no way BM Naruto should be above Minato. Even with Kakashi, B, and Gai's help he he still hasn't been able to do as well against Tobi's Kamui as Minato.


There's a thing called "_match-up,_" especially with Tobi's Kamui, and the situation is different. I might well argue that Minato needed help from Kushina to beat just Kulama. And now he fights _alongside_ Naruto so there is no way BM Naruto isn't above Minato.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 17, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> There's a thing called match-up and the situation is different.


Yes and with Team Naruto having the one Jutsu in the entire verse that shares the same S-T Dimension with Obito, they are the best match up for Obito. The situation is also no different Obito is trying to keep Team Naruto away from the Mazou just like he was trying to keep the fourth away from Kurama.



> I might well argue that Minato needed help from Kushina to beat just Kulama who is fighting alongside Naruto now.


You could argue whatever you want, but the Kurama that's working alongside Naruto is 50% Kurama, the one Minato needed help with is the 100% Fox.



> With BM Naruto wields the power Minato left him to do that which Minato could not


Yet so far he can't even do what Minato could.



> since Kulama by itself is easily S-tier, I think adding Naruto to the mix makes them S+-tier. This is a duo being ranked after all.


Kurama by itself is easily S+ Tier, however Kurama is significantly handicapped right now by the loss of 50% of it's power and  I don't see Naruto as having made up for that loss, yet.



> Itachi is to Sasuke what Minato is to Naruto; the true benchmarks. They are both unparalleled geniuses who seemingly wield the power of plot as well. As per my argument for Minato, Itachi should really only be weaker than the end-game main characters and the final villain(s).


Nah I'm calling it "Them" will probably be to Sasuke what Minato is to Naruto.


----------



## DonutKid (Sep 17, 2012)

Bijū Mode Naruto

S+ Strat, Shattering, KH, BringerOfCarnage, Tir, xKantStopx, Octavian, Sniffers, DK [9]
S Falkirion [1]
A
B

Itachi

S+ Shattering[1]
S Strat, Falkirion, KH, BringerOfCarnage, xKantStopx, Octavian, Sniffers, DK [8]
A Tir [1]
B

Killer Bee
S+
S Strat, Shattering, KH, BringerOfCarnage, Tir, xKantStopx, Sniffers, DK [8]
A Falkirion [1]
B


----------



## Sniffers (Sep 17, 2012)

Turrin said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 




Kamui has also been noted to be useless against Obito. It's only through a roundabout method that it works.
The chakra was split.. not the power as far as I'm aware.
We'll see why Minato left Kulama with Naruto soon enough.
Where does this 50% of its power come from? Is BM Naruto at a fraction of his power, because Naruto was exhausted before the fight even begun?


----------



## hitokugutsu (Sep 17, 2012)

DonutKid said:


> nah. FRS is a stronger version of rasengan, that's about it. it doesn't really change anything, since a straight rasengan is also lethal; the problem is connecting it with your opponent's body.
> 
> also, word also don't really count, and that 'surpass' is vague. he just manages to learn something that kakashi/minato can't; i doubt kakashi would be defeated by FRS naruto. and i remember fukasaku said something like SM naruto surpassed jiraiya/minato.



Yeah except its not just FRS. Naruto gained massive experience with his KB haxx training which allowed him to take down Kakuzu. 
And yess, he beat Kakuzu fair & square. Haters will no doubt claim Kakuzu was exhausted after fighting Kakashi & co, however this is the same Naruto that came *directly* from training FRS. He had little time to rest. Also Naruto actually hit Kakuzu at the first try with his KB feint + FRS, if not for plot that saved Kakuzu from the the first FR.
Kishi made it clear that Naruto KB feint is such a threat that even Kakuzu failed to recognise it. And as I already said: "surpassed" Kakashi is of course a broad meaning. We know Naruto lacks the finer skill and finesse, but appereant at that point he could no doubt hold his own vs Kakashi. Otherwise why would Kishi make the statement.
Although at that point vs Kakuzu Naruto was using KN0 eyes, so at best we can argue that FRS +KN0 Naruto ~ Kakuzu ~ early part II Kakashi


*Bijū Mode Naruto*

S+ Strat, Shattering, KH, BringerOfCarnage, Tir, xKantStopx, Octavian, Sniffers, DK, hitokugutsu [10]
S Falkirion [1]
A
B

*Itachi*

S+ Shattering[1]
S Strat, Falkirion, KH, BringerOfCarnage, xKantStopx, Octavian, Sniffers, DK, hitokugutsu [9]
A Tir [1]
B

*Killer Bee*
S+
S Strat, Shattering, KH, BringerOfCarnage, Tir, xKantStopx, Sniffers, DK,  hitokugutsu [9]
A Falkirion [1]
B


Gonna use Sniffers reasoning since it pretty much covers my opinion 



> *Reasoning*
> With BM Naruto wields the power Minato left him to do that which Minato could not and since Kulama by itself is easily S-tier, I think adding Naruto to the mix makes them S+-tier. This is a duo being ranked after all.
> 
> Itachi is to Sasuke what Minato is to Naruto; the true benchmarks. They are both unparalleled geniuses who seemingly wield the power of plot as well. As per my argument for Minato, Itachi should really only be weaker than the end-game main characters and the final villain(s). The S-tier is an obvious choice. With the Edo boost Itachi even seemed to rival Edo Nagato as he was the primary reason why the latter got sealed.
> ...





Also OP, if upcoming chapter(s) show Rinnegan Madara schooling the shit outta BM Naruto & Hachibi (as expected) then he should get his own Z tier 
I'm pretty sure a lot of people think anyway that Rinnegan Madara > BM Naruto by far


----------



## Turrin (Sep 17, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



- It's clearly not useless in this given scenario, so why even bring that up? It's literally the only Technique that allows someone to hit Obito when he's phasing. 

- Chakra is power for a Bijuu & Minato even uses the word "power". We also literally saw Kurama size reduced significantly after Shiki Fuujin 

- We already know why, Jiraiya told us. It was to complete "that jutsu". 

- I'll seal half the Fox's Power 

- BM Naruto doesn't seem exhausted to me. We see BM Naruto using clones just fine and throwing around enormous Bijuu Dama. Plus we are given no statement that would give that indication.


----------



## Godaime Kazekage (Sep 17, 2012)

*Bijū Mode Naruto
*
S+ Strat, Shattering, KH, BringerOfCarnage, Tir, xKantStopx, Octavian, Sniffers, DK, hitokugutsu [10]
S Falkirion, Godaime Kazekage [2]
A
B

*Itachi*

S+ Shattering[1]
S Strat, Falkirion, KH, BringerOfCarnage, xKantStopx, Octavian, Sniffers, DK, hitokugutsu, Godaime Kazekage [10]
A Tir [1]
B

*Killer Bee
*
S+
S Strat, Shattering, KH, BringerOfCarnage, Tir, xKantStopx, Sniffers, DK, hitokugutsu, Godaime Kazekage [10]
A Falkirion [1]
B

-------------

I wasn't here for previous voting, but BM Naruto isn't S+ quite yet as I foresee at least one more power up from him. In that same line of thought, Sasuke shouldn't be in S tier. He'd be a solid A+ based on what he's shown. I might be okay with an S-, but not S or above.

Bee is a solid S capable fighting and defeating a multitude of people with his diverse skill set

Itachi is also an S because of his powerful techniques and his intellect. His stamina holds him back against bulkier opponents.


----------



## hitokugutsu (Sep 17, 2012)

^ Tbh I also rated BM Naruto based on what he is gonna show, and not what he did show. However if we follow simple power structure then BM would be Hashirama/EMS Madara level. That the reason I ranked him S+ anyway


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## Tir (Sep 17, 2012)

The fact that Kamui is literally something that can help to hit Tobi when he was intangible, which is 99% Tobi always intangible, the argument saying Hiraishin as complete counter is silly if not idiotic.

The way I see it, Minato didnt expect Kushina helping him as he was surprised when Kushina used the chain. There also the fact that instead of letting Minato to face Kyuubi, Tobi opted to try to fight and sent Minato to another dimension and failed. Surely letting Kyuubi fought Minato without any help from Kushina would have killed him. Yeah, right. More like because Kushina tried to be useful Minato met his end.

Still cant believe Itachi would be in  tier S. Funny enough MS Sasuke who has similar abilities and bettet stamina, chakra, and also intelligent only at A. SMH


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## Sniffers (Sep 17, 2012)

Turrin said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 




Like I said, they make it work in a roundabout way as that is their only option.
A Biju is made out of chakra, so that it becomes smaller is logical. I have never read that Kulama's power was significantly reduced though. And if it did, we know that Biju regenerate chakra anyway.
Well, let's wait for "_that Jutsu_" then.
In another (German) translation it states "_chakra,_" and it's rather clear that that is what he meant anyway. The power of Biju is their chakra.. _they are chakra_.
Naruto was panting it up before he went BM.


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## Reddan (Sep 17, 2012)

*S + tier*
Edo Madara
*
S tier*
Hashirama 
EMS Madara
Rinnegan Obito
BM Naruto

*A tier*
Minato
Obito
Hiruzen
Nagato
Kabuto

*B tier*
Itachi
MS Sasuke
SM Naruto
Bee
Danzo

*C tier*
Orochimaru
Shishui
Kakashi
Gai
Jiraiya
Tsunade
Onoki
Gaara
*
D tier*
Muu
Nidaime Mizukage
Ay
3rd Raikage


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## Thdyingbreed (Sep 17, 2012)

Bijū Mode Naruto

S+ Strat, Shattering, KH, BringerOfCarnage, Tir, xKantStopx, Octavian, Sniffers, DK, hitokugutsu, TDB [11]
S Falkirion, Godaime Kazekage [2]
A
B

Itachi

S+ Shattering[1]
S Strat, Falkirion, KH, BringerOfCarnage, xKantStopx, Octavian, Sniffers, DK, hitokugutsu, Godaime Kazekage, TDB [11]
A Tir [1]
B

Killer Bee

S+
S Strat, Shattering, KH, BringerOfCarnage, Tir, xKantStopx, Sniffers, DK, hitokugutsu, Godaime Kazekage, TDB [11]
A Falkirion [1]
B

BM Naruto belongs on S+ tier with the likes of Madara and Hashirama because he's just so far above everyone else on S tier like Itachi, Minato, EMS Sasuke. 

Killer Bee belongs on S tier he's the perfect Jinchuriki has access to the Bijuu-dama, monstrous chakra levels and great speed in V2 and he trashed Team taka, Kisame, albeit his feats are pretty lacking in the war.


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## Reddan (Sep 17, 2012)

Thdyingbreed said:


> Bijū Mode Naruto
> 
> S+ Strat, Shattering, KH, BringerOfCarnage, Tir, xKantStopx, Octavian, Sniffers, DK, hitokugutsu, TDB [11]
> S Falkirion, Godaime Kazekage [2]
> ...



BM Naruto belongs on the same tier as Madara and Hashirama for me too.

As for Bee he is on the same tier as MS Sasuke, Itachi, SM Naruto and Danzo.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 17, 2012)

OP needs to be updated since this isn't Edo Itachi with unlimited chakra we're discussing, we're discussing just Itachi. 

My reasons:
Itachi S - Minato's parallel and one of the main characters benchmark. He has the most one hit KO jutsu and he fodderized the strongest Sannin twice. His been portrayed to be stronger than the strongest Sannin and on the level of Minato and Nagato.
Killer Bee S - Perfect Jin, nuff said
BM Naruto S+ - Kurama alone puts him on S tier, with Naruto his on another level.



Tir said:


> The fact that Kamui is literally something that can help to hit Tobi when he was intangible, which is 99% Tobi always intangible, the argument saying Hiraishin as complete counter is silly if not idiotic.
> 
> The way I see it, Minato didnt expect Kushina helping him as he was surprised when Kushina used the chain. There also the fact that instead of letting Minato to face Kyuubi, Tobi opted to try to fight and sent Minato to another dimension and failed. Surely letting Kyuubi fought Minato without any help from Kushina would have killed him. Yeah, right. More like because Kushina tried to be useful Minato met his end.
> 
> Still cant believe Itachi would be in  tier S. Funny enough MS Sasuke who has similar abilities and bettet stamina, chakra, and also intelligent only at A. SMH



Kamui alone cannot be used to hit Tobi, you need a partner. 

MS Sasuke is in S-tier, read before you post. If you go by databook MS Sasuke is not way near on Itachi level.


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## Turrin (Sep 17, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



1. You can call it a round about way, but it's irrelevant, since whether that way is round about or not it makes them more well suited to taking on Obito than anyone. 

2. Yes a Bijuu is made out of chakra so, losing half that chakra would indeed make it at half power. Kurama's physical size and thus physical strength and durability is reduced. And all of Kurama's techniques are fueled by the chakra kurama has access to.

3. Okay, that was my point all along.

4. I'm not sure why you would trust a german translation over english, but regardless it's silly distinction to make, even you seem to agree that the power of a Bijuu is it's chakra so why would losing half it's chakra not make Kurama half power?

5. Than he went BM and was fine. Not saying Naruto currently is at 100%, but there is no indication that exhaustion is dramatically effecting his performance, to the point where he can't use some of his techniques or that he would be able to handle Obito's Kamui on his own if he wasn't exhausted.

Fact of the matter is Naruto still hasn't performed up to Minato's standards, even in BM. If he was truly a whole Tier (and these are suppose to be broad Tiers) above Minato, some exhaustion shouldn't make a difference. And if he was really on the same tier as Obito or Madara, he shouldn't need this amount of help to stand a chance against them. Furthermore saying he is already Top Tier would imply Naruto isn't going to get anymore power ups after this, which I seriously doubt. 

BM Naruto should be a Tier bellow Obito and Madara. He might even be a Tier bellow Minato still given Minato's insane hype and how Minato has handled himself better than BM Naruto has even with help against Obito, though he is certainly not above Minato's Tier given his portrayal thus far.


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## Eliyua23 (Sep 17, 2012)

I'm sorry but BM Naruto hasn't proved he's ano another tier than Minato, matter of fact until this arc ends I'm under the assumption that Minato is still Thr stronger than the two, I get Sniffers line of thinking Becuase I once thought only Naruto/Sasuke and Obito/Kabuto would be stronger than Itachi but it seems that Madara is being used as the ultimate benchmark for Sasuke ad when it comes to feats , hype, statements, Minato is on another tier , this war has been all about hyping Sasuke with that said this would be my estimate of how an accurate tier list would look as of chapter 601

S+

Madara
Hashirama
Obito(Rinnegan)
Minato
Kabuto


S

BM Naruto
Obito(Sharingan)
EMS Sasuke(Hype)
Nagato(Edo)

A

Itachi
Dazno
Orochimaru
6Paths of Pain
 Jiriyia
 Onoki
Tsunade 
Hiruzen
Killer B

B

Raikage
Kakashi
Muu
Trollkage
Gai

Ect


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## Shattering (Sep 17, 2012)

Why people keep posting their tier lists? are you unable to read or what? I can't understand it.


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## Sniffers (Sep 17, 2012)

Turrin said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



1. It makes them suited for fighting him, but then Hiraishin made Minato suited for fighting Obito as well and Paper Ocean made Konan suited for fighting him. That's it.

And honestly, if Obito wasn't wearing his battle mask he most likely would've lost his head already. Current Obito is much better equipped than the one Minato fought so the comparison doesn't work anyway.

2-4. Chakra gets replenished it's just that the nature of the chakra is different. Also, didn't Obito say that even with fragments the power is the same?

5. BM Naruto handled multiple upgraded Biju at once. That puts him above Minato anyday in my book. It's just that Obito's Kamui require a very unique set of skills to fight against as explicitly stated.


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## Thdyingbreed (Sep 17, 2012)

What how has Naruto not surpassed Minato especially in his Bijuu mode? 

He's got him beat in pretty much every category except for sealing jutsu's and intelligence at this point and there's no way Minato could handle 5 Bijuu.


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## Turrin (Sep 17, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Minato was suited for fighting him, that is evident by the fact that he beat him. My point is that Minato wasn't more specifically well suited to fighting Obito than a team of Killer B, Naruto, Gai, and Kakashi (w/ Kamui).

2. Whose to say the other mask wasn't made of the same material? And such trivial things like a Fan vs Chains or 1 Mask vs Another really should not make a difference if BM Naruto is whole broad tier above Minato. 

3-4. Chakra doesn't get replenished when the person's soul is sealed in the Death God. If Kurama's chakra was replenished it would have returned to it's original size, yet it still remains in it's 50% form. The Juubi is a different entity entirely and if the power was truly the same there would be no need at all to seal Kurama and Hachibi, yet Madara as well as Obito clearly indicate they have rushed their plans, by not sealing those 2 first. Most likely Obito was saying that Juubi even incomplete will still have the same overwhelming quality of it's power.

4. Naruto handled those multiple Bijuu by countering their attacks and taking Obito's control of them away. Minato handled 100% Kurama by countering it's attacks and taking Obito's control of 100% Kurama away from him. The feat is nigh identical. 

And Naruto had not only access to unique power that was well suited to handling Obito's Kamui (Kakashi Kamui), but also had 2 other extremely powerful allies on his team. Yet he still underperformed to Minato. This is the guy were saying is a whole Tier above Minato. I don't think so.


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## Dr. White (Sep 17, 2012)

*Bijū Mode Naruto*

S+ Strat, Shattering,Dr. White [3]
S Falkirion [1]
A
B

*Itachi*

S+ Shattering [1]
S Strat, Falkirion, Dr. White [3]
A
B

*Killer Bee*
S+
S Strat, Shattering,Dr. White  [3]
A Falkirion [1]
B


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## Arles Celes (Sep 17, 2012)

Turrin said:


> There is no way BM Naruto should be above Minato. Even with Kakashi, B, and Gai's help he he still hasn't been able to do as well against Tobi's Kamui as Minato.



With Kakashi's kamui RM Naruto landed a rasengan on Tobi just like Minato did.

With a  2nd Kamui BM Naruto broke Tobi's mask.

Before Kakashi's kamui entered the game BM Naruto took down Tobi's bijuus.

Neither Minato nor Naruto were able to kill Tobi though the damage they inflicted on him was similar.

Also a similarity here is the fact that in both cases a /st ninjutsu was needed to handle Tobi's Kamui. That shows that the guy is particularly difficult to handle without such an ability.

BM Naruto didn't prove to be more impressive against Tobi since he lacks the tool to take Tobi off guard(s/t) and needs Kakashi's help in this regard. That wouldn't change even if Naruto merged BM with SM as major villains are not killed with a blitz. The key to take Tobi down is a surprise attack.

Still I wouldn't put BM Naruto a whole tier below Minato as his feat of matching the combined power of all 6 bijuu was similar to Minato teleporting a bijuudama IMO.


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## Sniffers (Sep 17, 2012)

Turrin said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



We are going to have to disagree. The things you think are comparable I don't think are that comparable at all. To fight Obito, Minato admitted you need a unique set of skills. Minato had Hiraishin, which also led to a very straight-forward winning condition; be faster. Kakashi's Kamui being a power to fight Obito with and how it worked was all a lot less obvious and required the team to find it out first (by accident because it was so NOT obvious). So yeah, that took longer.

Also, Minato had major help from the village and Kushina in defeating Kulama. Yeah, Naruto has help, but not nearly as much as Minato had. Not only that, Minato's help, Kushina, has a major advantage on the beast.

Then there's the fact that Kakashi noted that even he was still progressing, so the very young Obito Minato drove away is most likely not the same as the current Obito either and that's not even mentioning the superior equipment he has now.

Anyway, I'm curious how just Kakashi and Gai perform against Obito...


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## DonutKid (Sep 17, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> Yeah except its not just FRS. Naruto gained massive experience with his KB haxx training which allowed him to take down Kakuzu.
> And yess, he beat Kakuzu fair & square. Haters will no doubt claim Kakuzu was exhausted after fighting Kakashi & co, however this is the same Naruto that came *directly* from training FRS. He had little time to rest. Also Naruto actually hit Kakuzu at the first try with his KB feint + FRS, if not for plot that saved Kakuzu from the the first FR.
> Kishi made it clear that Naruto KB feint is such a threat that even Kakuzu failed to recognise it. And as I already said: "surpassed" Kakashi is of course a broad meaning. We know Naruto lacks the finer skill and finesse, but appereant at that point he could no doubt hold his own vs Kakashi. Otherwise why would Kishi make the statement.
> Although at that point vs Kakuzu Naruto was using KN0 eyes, so at best we can argue that FRS +KN0 Naruto ~ Kakuzu ~ early part II Kakashi



lol. kakuzu got defeated by plot tbh, a ninja of hashirama/madara times got fooled by a part 1 bunshin feint? really? guy with like hundred years of battle experience got fooled by an amateur feint? i wonder how he even survive till now if that was the case.
we then saw naruto got easily defeated by sasuke/itachi later on. if FRS naruto is kage level, i don't know which level is sasuke/itachi on.
there is not much of an improvement, just him knowing the basics of KB.  

but wadeva, off-topic.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 18, 2012)

Its been over 24 hours. The poll should end right now. 

Bijū Mode Naruto S+

Itachi S

Killer Bee S

Start a new one?

Jiraiya
Anko
Aoba


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## Sniffers (Sep 18, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Its been over 24 hours. The poll should end right now.
> 
> Bijū Mode Naruto S+
> 
> ...


Yeah, the votes are pretty clear as is. Most are 11 to 1 or 2, so I think we can just move on now. Keep the pace.



Kakashi Hatake said:


> Start a new one?
> 
> Jiraiya
> Anko
> Aoba


Fine by me.


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## Reddan (Sep 18, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Its been over 24 hours. The poll should end right now.
> 
> Bijū Mode Naruto S+
> 
> ...



It is impossible to judge Anko and Aoba, we just have no idea. Anko is probably around the standard the jounin, but where about who knows. Aoba is probably weaker than Asuma.

As for Jiraiya I would put him in the same tier as Onoki, Tsunade, Ay and Orochimaru; Tier A.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 18, 2012)

^ We have to fill the bottom. 

*Aoba*
A
B
C
D

*Jiraiya*
S
A Kakashi Hatake [1]
B

*Anko*
A
B
C
D


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## DonutKid (Sep 18, 2012)

^ i think it's better to use those that have shown more feats. eg: shikamaru, sakura, chouji etc.


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## hitokugutsu (Sep 18, 2012)

3 new characters Jiraya, Anko & Aoba? Sure. OP needs to update OP 

*Jiraya* one of the Sannin and powerful. Nothing in the manga suggest that he is truly much more powerful then Orochimaru. In fact if go by the rival thing we could consider them equal. He also fots perfectly fine among other Kages such as A, Tsunade, Onoki etc like Arednad mentioned. A tier

*Anko* considered a Tokubetsu Jonin, and het DB stats were also pretty decent. Overall she doesnt qualify for B tier which holds more powerful Jonin (early part I Kakashi etc), so C tier for her

*Aoba* also a Tokubetsu Jonin like Anko. We saw him briefly in action vs Kakuzu (Crow Muder and all), but we dont have DB stats for him, so my ranking is more based on his postion as Tokubetsu Jonin (like Anko). So also C tier

*Jiraya*

S+:
S:
A: Arednad, hitokugutsu, KH
B:



*Anko*

A:
B:
C: hitokugutsu
D:



*Aoba*

A:
B:
C: hitokugutsu
D:






Also of-topic post:



DonutKid said:


> lol. kakuzu got defeated by plot tbh, a ninja of hashirama/madara times got fooled by a part 1 bunshin feint? really? guy with like hundred years of battle experience got fooled by an amateur feint? i wonder how he even survive till now if that was the case.
> we then saw naruto got easily defeated by sasuke/itachi later on. if FRS naruto is kage level, i don't know which level is sasuke/itachi on.
> there is not much of an improvement, just him knowing the basics of KB.
> 
> but wadeva, off-topic.





Everybody was surprised, not just Kakuzu
And yess I also found it bad writing, but it still doesnt change the point Kishi made his message that _that_ Naruto was on Kakashi's/Kakuzu's level. And no shame in being fooled by a KB feint. Even Kages fall for such things (Madara Mokuton Bunshin ). 
Kakuzu was just focused on the FRS, and not Naruto himself.

Also Naruto's improvement with KB being "minimal", is hardly the case


*Spoiler*: __ 








He is using KB potential to the max. 

And yess we saw Naruto being easily defeated by Itachi later on in the forest, but that guy was waay above Kakuzu's level anyway, so no shame there
As for Sasuke, during the Itachi Chase he "defeated" a KB Naruto. Hardly counts as a battle? Not to mentioned that was Hebi Sasuke, who was at least Orochimaru level. If he wasnt he wouldnt challenge Itachi anyway


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## Muah (Sep 18, 2012)

S+

Madara
Hashirama
Obito(Rinnegan)
Naruto
Kabuto
EMS Sasuke(Hype)
Nagato(Edo)

S
Pein
the saninn
the third


EMS Sasuke(Hype)
Nagato(Edo)
Itachi edo

A

Itachi
Dazno
Onoki 
Hiruzen
Killer B
Gai
Raikage

B

Kakashi
Muu
Trollkage


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## DonutKid (Sep 18, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> And yess we saw Naruto being easily defeated by Itachi later on in the forest, but that guy was waay above Kakuzu's level anyway, so no shame there
> As for Sasuke, during the Itachi Chase he "defeated" a KB Naruto. Hardly counts as a battle? Not to mentioned that was Hebi Sasuke, who was at least Orochimaru level. If he wasnt he wouldnt challenge Itachi anyway



it still doesn't seem to me that FRS naruto is on kage level. he got his ass handed pretty easily, and his fight with kakuzu doesn't really show anything. part1 naruto already showed similar bunshins feints. unless part 1 naruto is on kage level.


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## Turrin (Sep 18, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



1. In the Viz translation Minato doesn't even say you need unique set of skills. He just says you need to be extraordinarily powerful to stand against him or something close to that (don't have my Viz volume on hand). However even if we go by the fan-translation, than Team Naruto did have those unique set of skills. Maybe you can say it took them longer to figure out, since it wasn't straight forward, but even after figuring it out they still struggled much more than Minato and the end result was less impressive than what Minato accomplished. 

2. Naruto also had major help dealing with the Jinchuuriki/Bijuu: Gai, Kakashi, B, & even help from the Jinchuuriki/Bijuu themselves. So both had tons of help. Kushina helped Minato to seal Kurama, not to free Kurama from Obito's control in-fact if anything at that point she and baby Naruto were a disadvantage since Minato had to spend time protecting them and saving them from various attacks. Naruto on the other hand never sealed or outright defeat those Bijuu, he just broke Obito's control over them in there current form forcing Obito to return them to the Mazou statue. 

3. Of course Obito kept progressing, he gained Rinnegan, possibly gained Izanagi since then, and now has the ability to create incomplete Juubi. However none of this has to do with ether aspects of each fighters accomplishments we are comparing: Taking the Bijuu out of Obito's Control, since he had a Bijuu that is at least equivalent in strength under his control when he faced the 4th (if not stronger) & countering Kamui, since he never used the Rinnegan's  abilities (or Izanagi) to foil Team Naruto's attempts. 

Slightly better equipment if it even is, considering Obito's old mask could easily have been made of the same material and Obito didn't seem able to use the war-fan's deflection ability even close to as well as Madara, and pretty much the best usage of it was him using it exactly like he attempted to use the chains to capture Minato, shouldn't make that big of a difference if your saying Naruto is a whole broad Tier above Minato.

4. I'm assuming ether Kakashi & Gai will get some sort of aid (Naruto's KB, Back Up, etc..), Kishi will have them pull out some nonsense to stand a chance (Gai using 8th Gate and not dying some how &/or Kakashi pulling out a new MS technique from the emotional strain of events), &/or they will simply survive long enough to TNJ Obito. Ether way I doubt we'll see Kakashi and Gai winning here or even surviving here without one of those things happening.


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## Sniffers (Sep 18, 2012)

Turrin said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



I don't see how they struggled more after finding out... and the result being less is due to the sturdy mask IMO.

Minato could break control simply by using a summon contract seal. The Pain Jutsu works entirely different; it required the removal of the stakes. It's a different scenario that doesn't compare. Besides, Obito did use new offensive abilities with his Kamui, like shooting stakes and shuriken.

I'll believe the old masks are sturdy when they also get noted to be sturdy, rather than Obito simply ripping one apart. Also, Obito abused the fan. He used it to maneuver around, evade, attack and finally bind. The chains only bound, there's a definite difference here. You should reread just how much Obito relied on the thing.


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## Turrin (Sep 18, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



1. They Found out in Chapter 596, than it still took them 2 whole chapters to land that Rasengan on Obito's head. 

2. Landing Contract Seal on Obito seems just as hard as removing those stakes to me. Hell Team Naruto accomplished removing those stakes easier than landing blows on Obito.

3. New offensive abilities which Minato could easily handle. 

4. Come on dude you really think a Fan + Mask should make a difference if Naruto is a whole broad Tier above Minato + has help from Kakashi, Gai, and Killer B. Fact of the matter is Minato + Kakashi + Gai + B would have easily countered Obito's Kamui and killed Obito by now, due to Minato's capabilities.


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## Sniffers (Sep 18, 2012)

Turrin said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



1. The number of chapters is no measure. Most time was spent talking.
2. I would love to see Minato attempt to remove those stakes without SM/KCM/BM strength.
3. Speculative. He may evade them, but it may also prevent him from landing a blow. We have no idea.
4. You make the comparison even skewer. We already established Minato has the right tools to fight Obito, whereas Naruto does not. I might as well argue that this new team where Naruto is replaced with Minato would not have been able to locate and remove the stakes to argue Minato is weaker.

What I'm saying is that the mask and fan made Obito a bit harder to deal with and Minato only won because of a _slight_ difference as well. A slight difference can make a great difference between success and failure. The whole tier difference is not based on BM Naruto's performance against Tobi alone, it's because BM Naruto rapidly defeated a Pain far superior than Nagato's and almost made it look easy.

Again, the comparisons you make should not be made IMO. I'll leave it at that.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 18, 2012)

*Aoba*
A
B
C UD
D

*Jiraiya*
S UD
A Kakashi Hatake [1]
B

*Anko*
A
B
C UD
D



hitokugutsu said:


> *Jiraya* one of the Sannin and  powerful. Nothing in the manga suggest that he is truly much more  powerful then Orochimaru. In fact if go by the rival thing we could  consider them equal. He also fots perfectly fine among other Kages such  as A, Tsunade, Onoki etc like Arednad mentioned. A tier



Funny since Orochimaru's suggested to be a threat to EMS Sasuke, and  even dying was more powerful than Hebi Sasuke as suggested by both  Karin and Sasuke.

Jiraiya was said to be able to beat Nagato/Pein. 

Minato said that Jiraiya's the greatest ninja he knows, a man of true skill, and wanted Naruto to be just like him.

Kisame said that Jiraiya is in a completely different league than himself. 

Let's also not forget the legendary comment by Itachi saying that they're equals.


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## hitokugutsu (Sep 18, 2012)

@ Ultimate DeadPool, you conveniently forgot to add the other votes for Jiraya in your list. Dont worry though I did them for you, see below  

*Aoba*
A
B
C UD, hitokugutsu [2]
D

*Jiraiya*
S UD
A Kakashi Hatake, arednad, hitokugutsu [3]
B

*Anko*
A
B
C UD, hitokugutsu [2]
D





> Funny since Orochimaru's suggested to be a threat to EMS Sasuke, and  even dying was more powerful than Hebi Sasuke as suggested by both  Karin and Sasuke.



Orochimaru is not a threat to EMS Sasuke, he specifically said so himself, and I seriously doubt at this point in the manga Oro can harm EMS Sasuke. Even Kabuto who had SM failed to properly harm Sasuke...although credit for that should go to Itachi 
And dying Oro more powerfull then Hebi Sasuke? What now? When Oro was "weakened" Sasuke defeated him. This was pre-Hebi Sasuke. 
Also Sasuke himself knew Oro was no match for Itachi, hence him willingly to give his body until he decided Oro could teach him nothing, and he could defeat him. Hebi Sasuke would not challenge Itachi if he wasnt certain he was at least more powerful then Orochimaru



> Jiraiya was said to be able to beat Nagato/Pein.



Yess, if he knew the secret. Big whoop. Meanwhile 3 Pains were already pushing HM Jiraya to his limits, let alone all Six.



> Minato said that Jiraiya's the greatest ninja he knows, a man of true skill, and wanted Naruto to be just like him.



Yess truly inspiring. Asuma in his dying moments also said Choiji would become more powerfull then anynone out there.
Its part of the student-teacher relationship. Minato-Jiraya are no different, they respect each other and look up to each other. 



> Kisame said that Jiraiya is in a completely different league than himself.



Yess but Jiraya also > Kisame. Kisame falls among the Akatsuki who were early part II Kakashi level: Kakuzu/Deidara/Konan/Kisame 
Only Akatsuki who could matach Jiraya imo were Oro (ex Akatsuki) & Sasori
Itachi & Nagato.....if given proper intel & prep time (like SM Naruto had with KB SM prep, Toad army prep + intel) then I can see Jiraya beating Nagato or Itachi



> Let's also not forget the legendary comment by Itachi saying that they're equals.



No, Itachi claimed that *at best* both he & Kisame would draw with Jiraya. Since this is the same Itachi who raped another Sannin at age 11/13 (timeline fuck up) and the same Itachi who's love for the Village was only exceeded by his love for Sasuke, and the same Itachi who rather avoids conflict, the same Itachi who lied his way up until his death.....I'm putting that statement into perspective


----------



## Black☆Star (Sep 18, 2012)

Is _sick_ Itachi going to be ranked as well ?


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 18, 2012)

Probably. I think if enough people want a character incarnation ranked, then they'll be ranked, and I suspect sick Itachi will be among them due to his prevalence in debates.​


----------



## Godaime Kazekage (Sep 18, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> Probably. I think if enough people want a character incarnation ranked, then they'll be ranked, and I suspect sick Itachi will be among them due to his prevalence in debates.​



What the heck is a sick Itachi? There is simply Itachi and Edo Itachi.


----------



## αce (Sep 18, 2012)

Sick Itachi is the one that fought Sasuke. It's almost impossible to tell how strong he would be healthy but we know he'd be notably stronger than the one that endured Hebi Sasuke's onslaught, as stated by Zetsu.


----------



## Empathy (Sep 18, 2012)

Sick Itachi is just Itachi. 

His life incarnation was sick throughout the manga. Why would we ignore character vices? That would be like not including eyesight deterioration.


----------



## shibunari (Sep 18, 2012)

*Aoba*
A
B
C UD, hitokugutsu,shibunari  [3]
D

*Jiraiya*
S UD
A Kakashi Hatake, arednad, hitokugutsu,shibunari  [4]
B

*Anko*
A
B
C UD, hitokugutsu,shibunari [3]
D


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Sep 18, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> And dying Oro more powerfull then Hebi Sasuke? What now? When Oro was "weakened" Sasuke defeated him. This was pre-Hebi Sasuke.


Sasuke overcame Fushi Tensei. He lost the battle in the real world, if Orochimaru didn't want to possess his body he could have killed Sasuke while he was weakened from the neuro-toxin. 

Orochimaru is more powerful than Hebi Sasuke, Sasuke admitted inferiority to Orochimaru after facing Deidara. Karin implied that Orochimaru wouldn't have had as much problem as Hebi Sasuke did to defeat Deidara. Sasuke did not deny it and said he only beat Orochimaru because he was weakened. Now you can ask why Sasuke would think hes ready to take on Itachi even though hes overall weaker than Oro whos weaker than Itachi. The answer is that he thought himself a better match-up against Itachi than Orochimaru due to possessing high skill with the Sharingan, making him stronger than Orochimaru against Itachi's greatest weapon.

Anyways:

*Aoba*
A
B
C UD, hitokugutsu, WPK [3]
D

He hasn't really shown that much skill as a fighter. To my remembrance hes a special Jonin and his only showing was a quick stomp by Kisame. His one pure offensive technique wasn't very impressive and outside of that he has Sazengarasu no jutsu which is a support technique. 

*Jiraiya*
S UD
A Kakashi Hatake, arednad, hitokugutsu, WPK [4]
B

With Orochimaru being a representative of the A tier, thats where Jiraiya belongs, alongside his fellow Sannin. The hype around the Sannins equality is much stronger than that of Itachi's ambiguous comment. Jiraiya when equally handicapped lost to Orochimaru, who then was defeated by Tsunade. Even taking the Pain thing into account, Nagato was biased and Obito implied the other Sannin could do the same.

*Anko*
A
B: WPK [1]
C UD, hitokugutsu [2]
D

Once we get into more specifics she'd be a B- for me. She lacks in fighting feats but she was one of Orochimaru's top students and was sent to capture Kabuto(albeit alongside Yamato), who was a rather dangerous criminal. I'd think shes at least on Juugo's level and hes on this tier.


----------



## αce (Sep 18, 2012)

> *Jiraiya*
> S *UD*
> A Kakashi Hatake, arednad, hitokugutsu, WPK [4]
> B



why am i not surprised


----------



## BringerOfCarnage (Sep 18, 2012)

*Aoba*
A
B
C UD, hitokugutsu, WPK, BringerOfCarnage [4]
D


*Jiraiya*
S UD
A Kakashi Hatake, arednad, hitokugutsu, WPK, BringerOfCarnage [5]
B


*Anko*
A
B: WPK [1]
C UD, hitokugutsu, BringerOfCarnage [3]
D


----------



## Turrin (Sep 18, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here's the deal sniffers. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Did BM Naruto show he can combat powerful Bijuu/ their Techniques and disrupt Obito's control over them with help, sure, but Minato showed the same thing. As for how Minato would specifically remove the stakes he'd just teleport the stakes away. Did BM Naruto show he can counter Obito's Kamui with help, sure, but Minato showed he could do it as well. 

Even if we throw distinctions aside like Minato landing more effective blows on Obito & Minato not requiring help to counter Kamui, for reasons you previously mentioned (Something as you know I don't entirely agree with). At the end of the day we are still left with the fact that Minato has accomplished the same or at least extremely similar feats to BM Naruto & someone placing BM Naruto on a whole broad Tier above him, due to said feats doesn't make much sense. Furthermore looking at statements, fame, and portrayal, these all favor Minato over BM Naruto at this point, so again there is nothing there to place BM Naruto a whole broad Tier above Minato.

So considering what's been shown and stated in the manga he is at best around Minato "level" if not inferior. Now perhaps BM Naruto will show something new or something new will be stated in future chapters that indicates BM Naruto surpassed Minato. That wouldn't surprise me, but I doubt it will be something that places BM Naruto in a whole broad Tier above Minato, since when Naruto surpasses someone he tends to be as strong or only slightly stronger than them. We saw this with Kakashi and the same seems fairly true of when he surpassed Jiraiya with Senjutsu training.


----------



## shibunari (Sep 18, 2012)

/\ 
 My vote was skipped...the counting is wrong ??


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Sep 19, 2012)

You did not provide any reasoning, so according to the rules on the first page your vote should not be counted.


----------



## DonutKid (Sep 19, 2012)

Aoba
A
B
C UD, hitokugutsu, WPK, BringerOfCarnage, DK, shibunari [6]
D


Jiraiya
S UD
A Kakashi Hatake, arednad, hitokugutsu, WPK, BringerOfCarnage, DK, shibunari [7]
B


Anko
A
B: WPK [1]
C UD, hitokugutsu, BringerOfCarnage, DK, shibunari [5]
D


shibunari said:


> /\
> My vote was skipped...the counting is wrong ??



fixed it for you.


----------



## shibunari (Sep 19, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> ^ We have to fill the bottom.
> 
> *Aoba*
> A
> ...





UltimateDeadpool said:


> *Aoba*
> A
> B
> C UD
> ...





BringerOfCarnage said:


> *Aoba*
> A
> B
> C UD, hitokugutsu, WPK, BringerOfCarnage [4]
> ...





WolfPrinceKiba said:


> You did not provide any reasoning, so according to the rules on the first page your vote should not be counted.



So, you're saying that Kakashi Hatake, UltimateDeadpool and BringerOfCarnage are above the rules? interesting .... but why?  




DonutKid said:


> fixed it for you.



Thank you ^^


----------



## Quab (Sep 19, 2012)

Aoba
A
B
C UD, hitokugutsu, WPK, BringerOfCarnage, DK, shibunari, Quab [7]
D

Jiraiya
S UD
A Kakashi Hatake, arednad, hitokugutsu, WPK, BringerOfCarnage, DK, shibunari, Quab [8]
B

Anko
A
B: WPK, Quab [2]
C UD, hitokugutsu, BringerOfCarnage, DK, shibunari [5]
D

Aoba is a very good support character with his various jutsus.  I believe that he should be on the C-tier list.  The reason is if the Sound 4 are on this tier list, then I can definitely see him being close to the middle-top of this tier list.  Genma was a special jonin and his teammate were special jonins and caused problems for the Sound 4, so I believe that Aoba should be on this list cause he's a Special Jonin and with his Mind-reading jutsu and other supports techniques he should be on the C-tier.

Jiraiya is a very easy character to gauge, as his portrayal and feats directly put him in the Sannin-tier.  And the Sannin's are all ranked in the A-tier.  His Sage Mode (with Ma+Pa) is strong, but Hydra Mode (with Edo Shodai+Nidai) is either close to or above Jiraiya.  So I believe that he comfortably belongs to the high A-tier with Orochimaru.  

Anko should definitely belong in the B-tier but lower-level of it.  If you think about it she could arguably tie with Jugo in a fight, on a very very good day.  She has snake summons and hidden snake hands.  Plus her Forbidden Jutsu, can kill anyone if she makes contact with them.  So that for me, pushes her up to the lower B-tier.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 19, 2012)

Empathy said:


> Sick Itachi is just Itachi.
> 
> His life incarnation was sick throughout the manga. Why would we ignore character vices? that would be like not including eyesight deterioration?



Right, but the sickness progressed over the timeskips and didn't seem to be present at all when he was 13 and could use Tsukuyomi with little effort. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it.​


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Sep 19, 2012)

shibunari said:


> So, you're saying that Kakashi Hatake, UltimateDeadpool and BringerOfCarnage are above the rules? interesting .... but why?


If they didn't provide reasoning their votes should be removed as well. I didn't remove your vote from a copy/paste, your post came while I was making mine. I didn't add it because your post lacked reasoning.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 19, 2012)

I sometimes vote first and then give my reasons. 

Aoba: His a good support ninja, his abilities are most useful in team work. His a special jonin who has been put in charge for Naruto's well being. He easily makes it in the same tier as the sound 4's.

Jiraiya: Orochimaru was portrayed to be stronger than Jiraiya but only by a small margin. So if Orochimaru is in A tier, it makes sense for Jiraiya to be in this tier as well. 

Aoba
A
B
C UD, hitokugutsu, WPK, BringerOfCarnage, DK, shibunari, Quab, KH [8]
D

Jiraiya
S UD [1]
A Kakashi Hatake, arednad, hitokugutsu, WPK, BringerOfCarnage, DK, shibunari, Quab [8]
B

Anko
A
B: WPK, Quab [2]
C UD, hitokugutsu, BringerOfCarnage, DK, shibunari [5]
D


----------



## hitokugutsu (Sep 19, 2012)

For those voting Anko B tier. I dont think she should be placed in that tier

That tier is represented by part I Kakashi, part I Kabuto, Zabuza etc. These were already Elite Jonins back then (with some amazing DB stats to back it up)
If anyhting regular Jonins such as part II Neji could make it into B tier. Being B- or something

Anko however, is Tokubetsu Jonin, which is ranker *lower* the then "standard" Jonin. It falls between Jonin & Chuunin. 
We know Anko was trained by Orochimaru and she has a CS, but unlike Juugo she doesnt use her CS. It shouldn't be counted among her skills, unlike say the Sound 4
And that suicide jutsu, it requires close contact *and* you have to form a seal with your opponents hands 
She is not gonna pull that shit off against people like part I Kabuto or Zabuza


My reasoning anyway


----------



## Quab (Sep 19, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> For those voting Anko B tier. I dont think she should be placed in that tier



Well I believe she does belong into the B-tier, because her Cursed Seal of Heaven, and Assassination Suicide technique + her Special Jonin skill should allow her on the lower echelon of it.



hitokugutsu said:


> That tier is represented by part I Kakashi, part I Kabuto, Zabuza etc. These were already Elite Jonins back then (with some amazing DB stats to back it up)
> If anyhting regular Jonins such as part II Neji could make it into B tier. Being B- or something



Yes, it is true that Part 1 Kakashi, Part 1 Kabuto, or Zabuza is a good definition of this tier, but let's not forget that Jugo is in this tier.  I believe Jugo is stronger than Anko, but on a very good day I think Anko can tie with Jugo.  She can use her Cursed Seal inconjuction with her Assassination technique on him.  It could happen, but the chances are slim.



hitokugutsu said:


> Anko however, is Tokubetsu Jonin, which is ranker *lower* the then "standard" Jonin. It falls between Jonin & Chuunin.
> We know Anko was trained by Orochimaru and she has a CS, but unlike Juugo she doesnt use her CS. It shouldn't be counted among her skills, unlike say the Sound 4
> And that suicide jutsu, it requires close contact *and* you have to form a seal with your opponents hands
> She is not gonna pull that shit off against people like part I Kabuto or Zabuza
> ...



Even though Anko is a Tokubetsu Jonin, some of her techniques or power-ups provide her to be in the lower-class of B, in my opinion.  I also think we can give her Cursed Seal as her power, because theirs a reason why she still has it.  So taking that away from her would be like taking away a Bijuu from a Jinchurukii.  And that suicide jutsu is hard to pull off, but I'm guessing if she could make Orochimaru's-clone form it with her hands, I'm sure she could make Jugo do it too.  I think you keep forgetting Jugo is in this tier-list.

Anyways, I respect your opinion  and I think Anko is already placed at C-tier because this voting poll is finished now or soon.


----------



## Rudolfusftw (Sep 19, 2012)

Jiraiya:

Actually, I believe Jiraiya is stronger than Orochimaru. Not by a very large margin, though. Orochimaru used to be the strongest of the three back in their Genin years, the Prodigy so to speak, but I think Jiraiya ended up surpassing him similar to how Naruto surpassed Sasuke.

A

Anko: 

Toukubetsu Jounin. Doesn't seem all that significant. Her suicide jutsu is powerful, but a pain to pull off plus she needs to sacrifice her own life which means she won't easily use it. 

C

Aoba:

Another Toukubetsu Jounin. I'd place him above Anko as he managed to keep up with Kakuzu in Taijutsu, and his crow technique is a pretty usefull support technique. Not enough to place him on Zabuza or Kakashi's level, though.

C


----------



## Ptolemy (Sep 19, 2012)

Reasoning:

*Spoiler*: __ 




*Jiraiya*
Jiraiya's hype seems inherently contradictory. As a Sannin we have him thematically placed on the same tier of power as Orochimaru and Tsunade, which is reinforced by the various instances where Jiraiya failed to best Orochimaru. However Kisame believed Jiraiya to be on a different tier than himself and believed Itachi when he said that they would draw - which is especially significant as Itachi has bested Orochimaru twice and Kisame had intel on his mangekyo sharingan at the time.

Jiraiya easily bested Konan, which is impressive, despite knowledge on her techniques. Pain claimed that Jiraiya would have beaten him had he known his secret. This could be interpreted as Jiraiya being an equal or superior to Pain, or simply Pain acknowledging had the known to find Nagato as opposed to fighting Pain he may have been able to beat Nagato. Overall, I'm inclined to believe that Jiraiya deserves an S tier ranking, yet from his limited portrayal has not proved beyond significant doubt that he is above an A rank.

*Anko*
We only have two instances of her fighting - the first was her being effortlessly outclassed by Orochimaru, the second was her being beaten off panel by Kabuto. Neither justify a place among renowned or significantly hyped shinobi such as Zabuza or Kimmimaro. However, as a special jonin her rank indicates she is superior to your average chunin. She is a student of a sannin and she survived having a curse mark, indicating a certain strength of body. Overall, I'd place her on C tier.

*Aoba*
Aoba has almost no hype and virtually no feats. We know he is a special jonin like Anko, so we should classify him above the average shinobi. He has been in a couple of dangerous situations and has proved himself above fodder. He justifies a C tier placement.



Aoba
A
B
C UD, hitokugutsu, WPK, BringerOfCarnage, DK, shibunari, Quab, KH, Ptolemy [9]
D

Jiraiya
S UD [1]
A Kakashi Hatake, arednad, hitokugutsu, WPK, BringerOfCarnage, DK, shibunari, Quab, Ptolemy [9]
B

Anko
A
B: WPK, Quab [2]
C UD, hitokugutsu, BringerOfCarnage, DK, shibunari, Ptolemy [6]
D

I'd like to suggest Onoki, Hidan & Mei for the next characters to be discussed.


----------



## Sniffers (Sep 19, 2012)

Exactly what Orochimaru and Jiraiya are being ranked here? Their individual selves or with Edo Tensei and Ni Dai Sennin team-ups? Individually they belong in the A-tier IMO, but in their respective teams they should make it to the S-tier. (Just like I believe Killer B belongs in the A-tier but as a duo with Gyuki he gets into the S-tier.) So do we rank teams or individuals for their cases?


----------



## Shattering (Sep 19, 2012)

*Aoba*
*A:*
*B:*
*C:* UD, hitokugutsu, WPK, BringerOfCarnage, DK, shibunari, Quab, KH, Ptolemy, Shattering [10]
*D:*

*Jiraiya*
*S: *UD [1]
*A:* Kakashi Hatake, arednad, hitokugutsu, WPK, BringerOfCarnage, DK, shibunari, Quab, Ptolemy, Shattering [10]
*B:*

*Anko*
*A:*
*B:* WPK, Quab [2]
*C: *UD, hitokugutsu, BringerOfCarnage, DK, shibunari, Ptolemy, Shattering [7]
*D:*

I suggest to discuss about the *5 kages* we saw against Madara one by one, because they will not get new feats at this point and we have seen what are they capable of going all out and doing his best against Edo Madara.


----------



## Melodie (Sep 19, 2012)

Anko
A:
B: WPK, Quab, Melodie [3]
C: UD, hitokugutsu, BringerOfCarnage, DK, shibunari, Ptolemy, Shattering [7]
D:

Anko is actually an elite when it comes to her position. She trained under one of the legendary three as well as learned his own techniques. She did also learn few forbidden techniques and a great tracker overall. She also has the cursed seal of heaven; the user chakra levels and physical attributes increase tremendously (ten times?). Orochimaru also believed there was some value in letting her live.

As a child, Anko's talent for ninja arts were presumably high, as shown from Orochimaru's initial interest in her, even comparing her abilities to Sasuke. Her training with Orochimaru made her a powerful fighter as she was shown to have very quick reflexes and precise aim. The fact that she was sent to lead the team searching for Kabuto is strongly suggestive of how much Konoha respects her skills.

Heck, During her brief scuffle with Orochimaru, she was able to out-manoeuvre him several times. She was also able to counter Kabuto Yakushi's ambush. She deserves the B position.​


----------



## hitokugutsu (Sep 19, 2012)

Quab said:


> Well I believe she does belong into the B-tier, because her Cursed Seal of Heaven, and Assassination Suicide technique + her Special Jonin skill should allow her on the lower echelon of it.
> 
> Yes, it is true that Part 1 Kakashi, Part 1 Kabuto, or Zabuza is a good definition of this tier, but let's not forget that Jugo is in this tier.  I believe Jugo is stronger than Anko, but on a very good day I think Anko can tie with Jugo.  She can use her Cursed Seal inconjuction with her Assassination technique on him.  It could happen, but the chances are slim.
> 
> ...



Thats what the thread is for. Discussion 

But anyway I think the main difference is that we differ from opinion about Anko's CS. We know she has, it but she has never shown *control* over it. In fact when it activated durin the Forest of Death she basically paralyzed.
And true she has potential since she survived the CS, but remember Oro also had prisoners fodder who even had CS2, and those werent Jonin level either.

Juugo however masters CS completely, and that alone puts him around early part I Kakashi. If Anko had shown simulair feats I would have B-ranked her too I guess. But she has never shown CS activation, and basically paralyzed when Oro activated it for her during Chunin Exam
The comparison with the Biju isnt really fair, since we only judge Jins at what level they *mastered* their Biju anway (i.e. Killer Bee). Also nobody in Konoha knew how to remove the CS for Anko (part I) until God Mode Itachi with Totsuka came along for Sasuke



Sniffers said:


> Exactly what Orochimaru and Jiraiya are being ranked here? Their individual selves or with Edo Tensei and Ni Dai Sennin team-ups? Individually they belong in the A-tier IMO, but in their respective teams they should make it to the S-tier. (Just like I believe Killer B belongs in the A-tier but as a duo with Gyuki he gets into the S-tier.) So do we rank teams or individuals for their cases?



We should include every jutsu a character has in their arsenal. But their is still a huge difference with your comparsion. I.e. Killer Bee always has acces to Hachibi and needs no prep to go V1/V2/Biju etc. While Jiraya needs massive prep and even then barely made it into HM vs 1/6 Pain. So even if Jiraya has acces to HM, he wont get the chance use it vs S tier characters in a proper battle. 
For Oro + ET. Remember he did not master it to the level of Kabuto. We know he could summon up to 3 ET's. But even then he considered Itachi still above him.  



Melodie said:


> Anko
> A:
> B: WPK, Quab, Melodie [3]
> C: UD, hitokugutsu, BringerOfCarnage, DK, shibunari, Ptolemy, Shattering [7]
> ...



Anko outwitted a Bunshin of Oro. Real Oro was chilling in a tree. Also for the CS argument see above. Anko never demonstrated mastery over it, so no boost for her. Also she basically paralyzed when the CS activated in the Forest of Death
And its impressive she survived CS marking (1/10 chance?), but so did countless fodder in Oro's prison. So hardly noteworthy.




Also I vote for ranking *5 Kage*. We seen them in action now and know their potential. I think we can rank them all 5 at once


----------



## DonutKid (Sep 19, 2012)

should the quality of the reason affect the power of vote?


----------



## Sniffers (Sep 19, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> We should include every jutsu a character has in their arsenal. But their is still a huge difference with your comparsion. I.e. Killer Bee always has acces to Hachibi and needs no prep to go V1/V2/Biju etc. While Jiraya needs massive prep and even then barely made it into HM vs 1/6 Pain. So even if Jiraya has acces to HM, he wont get the chance use it vs S tier characters in a proper battle.
> For Oro + ET. Remember he did not master it to the level of Kabuto. We know he could summon up to 3 ET's. But even then he considered Itachi still above him.


Summoning is a Jutsu, but not that which is summoned by it. Although for the purposes of this thread I count partnerships. Killer B for me is actually Killer B and Gyuki, and BM Naruto is actually Naruto and Kulama; this being in line with Naruto's perspective.

In case the Orochimaru that is listed includes his Edo Tensei and he's not in the S-tier then he should at least be at the very top of the A-tier. Jiraiya ranks right besides him, based on the rivalry parallel shared with the main characters, so he'll end up in the A-tier as well. I'll vote later.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 19, 2012)

What does everyone think of adding this new rule?

If you give reasons for your vote than your vote should count as two but if you don't give reasons for your vote than your vote count as one.


----------



## Kanki (Sep 19, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> What does everyone think of adding this new rule?
> 
> If you give reasons for your vote than your vote should count as two but if you don't give reasons for your vote than your vote count as one.



No.
.........


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 19, 2012)

Kakashi Is God said:


> No.
> .........



Why?

Currently people who vote without reason does not count. Around half the people voted gave no reasons. This happened before.


----------



## puma21 (Sep 19, 2012)

Sorry in advance as it's off topic from your current discussion. But how is Nagato in the same tier as ms Sasuke, he soloed a village with puppets. He's shown two of the most destructive abilities in the manga. He had no problems with Naruto and Bee but had to be taken down for plot reasons.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 19, 2012)

I notice that everyone voting for Jiraiya to be in the A-tier are Itachi fans, why isn't anyone else voting?



hitokugutsu said:


> Orochimaru is not a threat to EMS Sasuke, he specifically said so himself, and I seriously doubt at this point in the manga Oro can harm EMS Sasuke. Even Kabuto who had SM failed to properly harm Sasuke...although credit for that should go to Itachi
> And dying Oro more powerfull then Hebi Sasuke? What now? When Oro was "weakened" Sasuke defeated him. This was pre-Hebi Sasuke.
> Also Sasuke himself knew Oro was no match for Itachi, hence him willingly to give his body until he decided Oro could teach him nothing, and he could defeat him. Hebi Sasuke would not challenge Itachi if he wasnt certain he was at least more powerful then Orochimaru
> 
> ...



Orochimaru said he wasn't strong enough "yet," which means he wasn't at full strength yet unless he's planning on training or something, and Suigetsu thought he was lying. Suigetsu has seen everything Sasuke can do, and knows what Orochimaru is capable of as well, as thinks Sasuke is in danger.
Karin said that Sasuke's performance against Deidara was not fitting of someone capable of beating Orochimaru, to which Sasuke didn't refute, and said that the only reason he beat Orochimaru was because he was sick. Sasuke gambled on Kirin to beat Itachi, he planned it out, waited for Itachi to use Amaterasu so that he could use it to create cumulus clouds. 

Once Jiraiya learned their abilities, he WTFPWN'd those three Peins without so much as being touched, and fought all six with only one arm and almost no jutsus. Nagato gave KCM Naruto and Bee a hard time, a testament to Jiraiya's power. 

Was Minato or Jiraiya dying? No. Minato said Jiraiya is the greatest he knows and wanted Naruto to be just like him. 

So you admit that it's within Jiraiya's capabilities to win, as stated in the manga. 

Itachi said that he and Jiraiya would draw, and that Kisame's help likely wouldn't change that outcome. True to words, Itachi had to save Kisame from being one-shotted. 
Itachi took on a dying Orochimaru that had no killing intent, didn't yet have all of his kinjutsus like Edo Tensei, and had to make eye contact for his soul transfer. There was literally nothing Itachi could had done to stop a 100% Orochimaru even without Edo Tensei,  at least not without Totsuka or Izanami, neither of which he obviously used. Orochimaru laughs at getting chopped to pieces so losing a hand meant absolutely nothing. 
There was also no reason for Itachi to lie about being Jiraiya's equal, if he wanted to lie then he should had said he was no match for Jiraiya and that they should stay away. But he didn't, he went after Naruto anyway despite Kisame's hesitations. 



Empathy said:


> Sick Itachi is just Itachi.
> 
> His life incarnation was sick throughout the manga. Why would we ignore character vices? that would be like not including eyesight deterioration?



Indeed. Mastering the MS came with physical drawbacks, taking away those drawbacks is like giving Naruto unlimited Sage Mode. 



WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Sasuke overcame Fushi Tensei. He lost the battle in the real world, if Orochimaru didn't want to possess his body he could have killed Sasuke while he was weakened from the neuro-toxin.
> 
> Orochimaru is more powerful than Hebi Sasuke, Sasuke admitted inferiority to Orochimaru after facing Deidara. Karin implied that Orochimaru wouldn't have had as much problem as Hebi Sasuke did to defeat Deidara. Sasuke did not deny it and said he only beat Orochimaru because he was weakened. Now you can ask why Sasuke would think hes ready to take on Itachi even though hes overall weaker than Oro whos weaker than Itachi. The answer is that he thought himself a better match-up against Itachi than Orochimaru due to possessing high skill with the Sharingan, making him stronger than Orochimaru against Itachi's greatest weapon.
> 
> ...



Indeed. 

About Jiraiya and Orochimaru though, I disagree with your assessment. Orochimaru was made a representative of the A-tier without a vote, not only that but peoples' assessments of him are based on Orochimaru are primarily based on his performances without arms. We don't know what he can do with arms, and Edo Tensei makes him easily S+ thanks to Hashirama, Tobirama, and Madara in his collection. A drugged Jiraiya is likely A-tier, but 100% Jiraiya is S-tier. 



Quab said:


> Jiraiya is a very easy character to gauge, as his portrayal and feats directly put him in the Sannin-tier.  And the Sannin's are all ranked in the A-tier.  His Sage Mode (with Ma+Pa) is strong, but Hydra Mode (with Edo Shodai+Nidai) is either close to or above Jiraiya.  So I believe that he comfortably belongs to the high A-tier with Orochimaru.



Really? Because The vast majority of Orochimaru's feats are based on him without arms, and with arms he possesses untold power; you are also severely underrating the powers of Hashirama, Tobirama, and Madara to say that even with them he belongs in the A-tier. Jiraiya was powerful enough to beat Pein/Nagato, fight Itachi to a draw, and be made Naruto's aspiration by Minato. 



Strategoob said:


> Right, but the sickness progressed over the timeskips and didn't seem to be present at all when he was 13 and could use Tsukuyomi with little effort. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it.​



Sasuke mastered Amaterasu before he mastered his other MS abilities, but mastery of those made his vision deteriorate. There's no difference for Itachi.



Sniffers said:


> Summoning is a Jutsu, but not that which is  summoned by it. Although for the purposes of this thread I count  partnerships. Killer B for me is actually Killer B and Gyuki, and BM  Naruto is actually Naruto and Kulama; this being in line with Naruto's  perspective.
> 
> In case the Orochimaru that is listed includes his Edo Tensei and he's  not in the S-tier then he should at least be at the very top of the  A-tier. Jiraiya ranks right besides him, based on the rivalry parallel  shared with the main characters, so he'll end up in the A-tier as well.  I'll vote later.



What's summoned is part of the user's power. 

Orochimaru w/  Edo Tensei should be in the S+ tier, and the Orochimaru that everyone's  gauging is armless Orochimaru, then they illogically compare Jiraiya to  that. Drugged Jiraiya competed evenly against armless Orochimaru for quite a while off-panel. Could armless Orochimaru beat Nagato/Pein, since it was stated that Jiraiya could? Or how about Tsunade? Could she beat Nagato/Pein since you view the Sannin as "equal"?


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 19, 2012)

Imo, Sasuke's eyes deteriorated much more quickly because he used the Mangekyō so many times, like twenty times, in one day. It's the equivalent of burning yourself raw while working out.

Itachi, in contrast, seemed to only use one or two Mangekyō jutsu with far more rest time, which is more like a standard training program, and resulted in more experience with less deterioration.​


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 19, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> Imo, Sasuke's eyes deteriorated much more quickly because he used the Mangekyō so many times, like twenty times, in one day. It's the equivalent of burning yourself raw while working out.
> 
> Itachi, in contrast, seemed to only use one or two Mangekyō jutsu with far more rest time, which is more like a standard training program, and resulted in more experience with less deterioration.​



Itachi had to use them to master them, which lead to deterioration. Even Kakashi's eye is starting to deteriorate since learning Kamui, as revealed in his conversation with Itachi. Itachi may had cooled it down on his MS jutsus after mastering them, but he was still suffering the effects. 

So basically you have Healthy Itachi who's a novice with the MS jutsus, or sick Itachi who's a master.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 19, 2012)

That has nothing to do with it. Itachi was a genius even before MS when he did gain that it greatly bolstered his stats. Granted experience no doubt had a part in development, but look at Sasuke, he was able to fight on par with ninja like diedara without MS, yet when he did he gained signifigant power enough to injure Ei, and kill Danzo. Hell had Sasuke fought like his Hebi version(except in Ei fight Susano was a must) with MS he would have been a hell of a lot better. Itachi is a much more insightful and calculating ninja.


----------



## GaaraFromTheHood (Sep 19, 2012)

Aoba seems to me like the same as Ebisu and Ibiki: Jounin that are not quite as elite as Yamato, Asuma, or the older guard (Shikaku, Chouza, etc.) Based on his support appearances and his special techniques can't rank them on the same level as those, while Yamato and Asuma can't be ranked equally with Kakashi and Gai, so two levels down seems perfect to me. Same for Anko: a few fancy jutsus doesn't make her a powerful ninja in itself, she needs to be shown as competing against ninjas of higher caliber and frankly we haven't, so based on that she remains in the C rank. 

Jiraiya.....now we are talking. As many have said, he is at least equal to Orochimaru, plus he has shown us great resiliency (guts), underrated smarts (though it might be above-level shrewdness combined with experience - he mastered the art of mixing his goofy personality with great intelligence) excellent techniques over and over, combined with his varied summonings and his hype as not just a great sannin but as the greatest teacher in the series (Minato, Nagato, Naruto)...well, let's just say he's impressive. Can't put him in the S class with the powerhouses, but he's a high A class Ninja, imo. 


BTW, someone should review the votes, make sure reasoning + actual vote are reflected. 

*Aoba*
A:
B:
C: UD, hitokugutsu, WPK, BringerOfCarnage, DK, shibunari, Quab, Kakashi Hatake, Ptolemy, Shattering, GaaraFromTheHood [12]
D:

*Jiraiya*
S: UD [1]
A: Kakashi Hatake, arednad, hitokugutsu, WPK, BringerOfCarnage, DK, shibunari, Quab, Ptolemy, Shattering, GaaraFromTheHood [11]
B:

*Anko*
A:
B: WPK, Quab [2]
C: UD, hitokugutsu, BringerOfCarnage, DK, shibunari, Ptolemy, Shattering, GaaraFromTheHood, Melodie [9]
D:


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 19, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> That has nothing to do with it. Itachi was a genius even before MS when he did gain that it greatly bolstered his stats. Granted experience no doubt had a part in development, but look at Sasuke, he was able to fight on par with ninja like diedara without MS, yet when he did he gained signifigant power enough to injure Ei, and kill Danzo. Hell had Sasuke fought like his Hebi version(except in Ei fight Susano was a must) with MS he would have been a hell of a lot better. Itachi is a much more insightful and calculating ninja.



Kakashi is a genius too, and so is Sasuke. 

Sasuke had Orochimaru's snake jutsus, which is why he even did as well as he did against Itachi. Ei injured himself on purpose just to spite Sasuke, Sasuke also had significant help against Danzo whom was handicapped the entire fight. 

Itachi has not been that impressive at all though.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 19, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Itachi has not been that impressive at all though.


It's not that he hasn't been impressive because he has been. Anyone able to defeat Orochimaru, even if it's with their best Jutsu, is extremely impressive in my book when compared to most of the other ninja in the manga. The problem is he hasn't been as impressive as some wish to believe. Killer B and Danzo Fight Sasuke are also overrated. None of those three, especially Danzo Fight Sasuke have any business being in the same Tier as Edo Nagato and Minato. I mean there is absolutely nothing in terms of accomplishments, hype, statements, and portrayal that would put anyone of them in the same Tier as those 2, again especially Danzo Fight Sasuke. 

You can say the Tier is broad, but than Orochimaru and Jiraiya should surely make that Tier as well. But whatever, it's just a fan made Tier list, for the sake of fun, who really cares all that much at the end of the day.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 19, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Kakashi is a genius too, and so is Sasuke.
> 
> Sasuke had Orochimaru's snake jutsus, which is why he even did as well as he did against Itachi. Ei injured himself on purpose just to spite Sasuke, Sasuke also had significant help against Danzo whom was handicapped the entire fight.
> 
> Itachi has not been that impressive at all though.



lol at Itachi hate.

Itachi is clearly an extremely rare genius akin to Minato. Sure if you look blindly at the story and read it with no awareness of Portrayal, or hype. 

-Itachi is said to be the best at the academy.
-Awakens Sharingan at 8. Becomes Anbu Captain
-Beats 3 Uchiha Elites as a 13 year old.
-Awakens MS at 13(you know that extremely rare eye jutsu most uchihas don't get, mind you regular uchihas gain Sharingan around 13 see Sasuke and Obito)
-Joins akatsuki at 14, and beats Orochimaru
-Completely destroys Kakashi and Kurenai, burns through J-mans death trap.
-Fights with terminal sickness after years of MS use and still is able to overcome Hebi Sasuke(despite him throwing the fight on purpose).
-Knew about Oro's seal and draws out him and his Hydra summon seals them with ease.
-We find out he and Tobi had a deadlock deal, and that Obito couldn't attack Konoha until Itachi's death.
-Itachi comes back as an Edo Tensei and is portrayed to be > everyone on panel with him(mind you we had Naruto, bee, nagato sasuke and Nagato) and simply spout out wisdom and stratgies to beat each opponent.

Fights nonchalantly with Bee and KCM Naruto. Soloes Cerberus
Breaks Edo Tensei(only other person able to do this was Madara), saves Naruto and Bee, finds weakness of Rinnengan shared vision and seals Nagato.

Goes onto Kabuto severely handicapped and with no knowledge, manages to protect his brother and defeat Kabuto(and ET) not only most likely reforming Kabuto, but also saving the Gokage from certain death Perfect Susano. He is called Savior of Shinobi alliance, and gets a christ like exit from the manga.

Do I need to explain his list of feats, hype and portrayal for you?


----------



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Sep 19, 2012)

This thread is a much bigger mess than the last one.


----------



## Cybore (Sep 20, 2012)

This post pretty much sums it up:



Ptolemy said:


> Reasoning:
> *Jiraiya*
> Jiraiya's hype seems inherently contradictory. As a Sannin we have him thematically placed on the same tier of power as Orochimaru and Tsunade, which is reinforced by the various instances where Jiraiya failed to best Orochimaru. However Kisame believed Jiraiya to be on a different tier than himself and believed Itachi when he said that they would draw - which is especially significant as Itachi has bested Orochimaru twice and Kisame had intel on his mangekyo sharingan at the time.
> 
> Jiraiya easily bested Konan, which is impressive, despite knowledge on her techniques. Pain claimed that Jiraiya would have beaten him had he known his secret. This could be interpreted as Jiraiya being an equal or superior to Pain, or simply Pain acknowledging had the known to find Nagato as opposed to fighting Pain he may have been able to beat Nagato. Overall, I'm inclined to believe that Jiraiya deserves an S tier ranking, yet from his limited portrayal has not proved beyond significant doubt that he is above an A rank.



If you take at face value what Pain and Itachi said about the skill level of Jiraiya, then he is easily fits into S-Rank tier.  I, however, think this is a cheap way to assess the skill level of a character; especially when he has been given enough panel time for the readers to assess his worth. 

Like the poster quoted above, I believe that Jiraiyas' feats and potential don't quite match the praise he has been given.  

*Jiraiya beating pain with knowledge*
Sure, I could see Jiraiya beating a crippled Nagato if he somehow was able to sneak in for the kill, but I call BS on Jiraiya beating the six paths even with knowledge.  It took Naruto with knowledge who had mastered SM(unlike his sensei) and the power of the Kyuubi to overcome the six paths (not to mention the Hinata save).  Pain was even at at a disadvantage since he had no access to Deva's techniques for most of the fight.

Jiraiya himself stated that he was almost killed by the 4tk. The same 4tk who Orochimaru more or less played around with. Pain was able to fight 6tk and probably would've captured Naruto had he not released the seal and had Minato not shown up.

Jiraiya had trouble beating 3 paths and eventually had to run away and cast genjutsu to even get through half of the paths. I really have difficulty believing he could've defeated all unless he had another a hidden technique he didn't show. In the case why didn't Jiraiya use it and resort to genjutsu instead which required setup and prep time?  If he had known they were corpses he had a technique to remotely disable them?

I kinda saw Pain's statement on Jiraiya as a farewell gift from Kishi to Jiraiya fans since he just killed their favorite character after all. It was a proper sendoff to give to guy.

*Jiraiya beating Itachi/Kisame*
I don't know if Kishi planned the whole Itachi being a double agent thing out so early in the manga, though if this had been the case, I could see Itachi saying what he did in order to not to initiate a skirmish with Jiraiya.

In any case, again I just can't see Jiraiya beating Itachi if you compare the arsenal of jutsus of both characters.  Itachi with handful of broken techniques that can one shot you, the ultimate defense, and ridiculous number of feats. Call me biased, but I could only see Itachi losing the battle due to illness. At that point though, Itachi did not seem to be in proper condition.  He had to rest after casting Tsukuyomi/Ama and had just fought Kakashi.
-----
Finally, the Sannin lost against Hanzo who in turn was murdered by Pain.  They were probably weaker back then, but I'll leave it at that.

Aoba
A:
B:
C: UD, hitokugutsu, WPK, BringerOfCarnage, DK, shibunari, Quab, Kakashi Hatake, Ptolemy, Shattering, GaaraFromTheHood [12]
D:

Jiraiya
S: UD [1]
A: Kakashi Hatake, arednad, hitokugutsu, WPK, BringerOfCarnage, DK, shibunari, Quab, Ptolemy, Shattering, GaaraFromTheHood, Cybore[12]
B:

Anko
A:
B: WPK, Quab [2]
C: UD, hitokugutsu, BringerOfCarnage, DK, shibunari, Ptolemy, Shattering, GaaraFromTheHood, Melodie [9]
D:


----------



## DonutKid (Sep 20, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> I notice that everyone voting for Jiraiya to be in the A-tier are Itachi fans, why isn't anyone else voting?



we wank, but we don't hate and downplay other characters unlike certain fandoms. 

tbh, jiraiya being on A-tier seems reasonable, as his counterparts orochimaru and tsunade are in A-tier. A is also in the same tier. unless you think jiraiya is one tier above them. 



Turrin said:


> You can say the Tier is broad, but than Orochimaru and Jiraiya should surely make that Tier as well. But whatever, it's just a fan made Tier list, for the sake of fun, who really cares all that much at the end of the day.



i think the tier will split-up later.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 20, 2012)

I'm going to close the vote, since its been over 24 hours. (Also, anyone can close the votes after 24 hours!)

Some people didn't give reasons so their vote doesn't count. But even without their votes, the outcome won't change.

Aoba: Rank C
Jiraiya: Rank A
Anko: Rank C



> *Aoba*
> C: UD, hitokugutsu, WPK, BringerOfCarnage, DK, shibunari, Quab, Kakashi Hatake, Ptolemy, Shattering, GaaraFromTheHood, Rudolfusftw [13]
> 
> 
> ...



*Onoki*
S: Kakashi Hatake [1]
A:
B:

*SM Naruto*
S: Kakashi Hatake [1]
A:
B:

*Asuma Sarutobi*
S:
A:
B: Kakashi Hatake [1]
C:

*Reason:*
*Spoiler*: __ 




Onoki has been portrayed to be the strongest of the Gokage's. He was the most valued player on the Alliance side. His ability is one of the most haxxed jutsu in this manga which doesn't take much charge time. It got the hype of destroying a turtle on the size of an island. He can lift an island, meteor with his tech. I think he deserves to be on S tier.

SM Naruto is MS Sasuke counterpart, I can't see SM Naruto being on another tier than MS Sasuke. Thats why his in S tier as well.

Asuma is a elite Jounin, his feats are very weak. His been portrayed to be stronger than Sound 4 (Rank C) but his been portrayed to be weaker than Part 1 Kakashi (Rank B) so when the time comes to split the tiers, I'll be voting for him to be on B-. Right now his on B.


----------



## Sniffers (Sep 20, 2012)

Ah, seems in the end I missed the vote. Though it doesn't matter as my votes wouldn't have changed anything anyway from the looks of it. Moving on...



*Onoki*
S: Kakashi Hatake [1]
A: Sniffers [1]
B:

*SM Naruto*
S: Kakashi Hatake [1]
A: Sniffers [1]
B:

*Asuma Sarutobi*
S:
A:
B: Kakashi Hatake, Sniffers [2]
C:



*Reasoning*

*Onoki*
This guy may be the most impressive of the Kage, but that's mostly because of his experience and uplifting speeches. Power-wise I think the Kage all fall in the same tier as they were pretty much portrayed as equals in the war IMO, with at most only minor differences. Also, there's no way he is above Jiraiya and Orochimaru. So Onoki gets the A-tier.

*SM Naruto*
SM Naruto brought Sage Mode further than Jiraiya and was tasked with  defeating an opponent Jiraiya could not defeat. That said, SM Naruto did have more knowledge and the village did drain Pain quite a bit already so I'm not fully confident in saying SM Naruto has surpassed Jiraiya. They are close, though SM Naruto has an edge IMO. Besides, KCM Naruto who will be in the S-tier (since BM Naruto is in the S+ one) said he's way stronger than back when he fought Pain, so there should be a tier difference. Thus A-tier.

*Asuma Sarutobi*
He is a bit weaker than part I Kakashi, but as one of the main Jonin I think he does make it to the B-tier, considering he should be comfortably above the Sound 4.


----------



## hitokugutsu (Sep 20, 2012)

*Onoki*
S: Kakashi Hatake [1]
A: Sniffers, hitokugutsu [2]
B:

*SM Naruto*
S: Kakashi Hatake [1]
A: Sniffers, hitokugutsu [2]
B:

*Asuma Sarutobi*
S:
A:
B: Kakashi Hatake, Sniffers, hitokugutsu [3]
C:


*Asuma*. Elite Jonin and has good DB stats to back it up. Was going too to toe vs Hidan for a while and definitely powerfull enough for Kabuto to ET him. B tier

*Onoki* has one of the most haxx jutsu, and in fact the War gave us "2 Onoki's". The first one is we saw vs Mu & Nidaime Mizukage, where he was failing and would have been killed twice if not for Gaara. In fact this Onoki looked rather feeble that even Deidara was sure he could kill him. And remember Deidara knows his moves and Jinton, while Onoki was unaware of C4. 
Then we saw an Onoki whose "will of Stone" kicked in when he faced Madara. His "back troubles" didnt kick in and he was fighting woth more spirit. But even then there is nothing to suggest that he is on another level then the Sannin. I would place him in the top of the A tier (A+), but since its broad tiers, A tier for now

*SM Naruto.* I believe we're ranking characters here. So the correct term would be ranking Naruto after he mastered SM. And just like Jiraya, entering SM is still time-consuming, and he can only last in it for 5-10 minutes? Even then Base Naruto was impressive as he held his own against Deva Path in taijutsu for a while till SM kicked in. But overall his performance vs Pain was scripted in the sense that he had an Forg Army, Pa+Ma etc. Overall everyhting SM Naruto displayed HM Jiraya could also do (aside from Frog Fu & sensing). But to balance that out Jiraya had "unlimited SM" as long as Pa & Ma were on his shoulders. 
Naruto did "surpass" Jiraya in SM, but I hardly doubt that Naruto at that point was much more skilled overall then Jiraya So A(+) tier for SM Naruto, just like Jiraya

Also @ KH, I dont believe SM Naruto parallels MS Sasuke. The only thing they have in common is that they received their power-up around the the same time. But if anything its the theme that "Sasuke is always one step ahead and Naruto tries to ctach up". 
Hence FRS training to catch up to early part II Sasuke etc. If you go by parallels, this one fits better imo:

FRS Naruto ~ Kirin Sasuke ~ benchmark Kakashi
SM Naruto ~ CS2/Hebi Sasuke ~ benchmark Jiraya/Orochimaru
KCM Naruto ~ MS Sasuke ~ benchmark Minato/Itachi
BM Naruto ~ EMS Sasuke ~ benchmark Hashirama/EMS Madara 

Also note that Sasuke was always "one step ahead" wit these power-ups and received them *before* Naruto


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 20, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> About Jiraiya and Orochimaru though, I disagree with your assessment. Orochimaru was made a representative of the A-tier without a vote, not only that but peoples' assessments of him are based on Orochimaru are primarily based on his performances without arms. We don't know what he can do with arms, and Edo Tensei makes him easily S+ thanks to Hashirama, Tobirama, and Madara in his collection. A drugged Jiraiya is likely A-tier, but 100% Jiraiya is S-tier.



Actually people did vote on those characters to be the representative of each said tier. After we made this thread you had a chance whether you wanted them to be removed from being the representative of the list and many people decided Itachi, Killer Bee and [Someone else???] to be removed from the list. 



> Really? Because The vast majority of Orochimaru's feats are based on him without arms, and with arms he possesses untold power; you are also severely underrating the powers of Hashirama, Tobirama, and Madara to say that even with them he belongs in the A-tier. Jiraiya was powerful enough to beat Pein/Nagato, fight Itachi to a draw, and be made Naruto's aspiration by Minato.



This tier list is not based on feats alone, it is based on character portrayal, hype and then feats. So it wouldn't make any difference if Orochimaru had both arms or not. 

Also can you drop the Jiraiya and Itachi discussion? We are now voting on Onoki, SM Naruto and Asuma Sarutobi. 



puma21 said:


> Sorry in advance as it's off topic from your current discussion. But how is Nagato in the same tier as ms Sasuke, he soloed a village with puppets. He's shown two of the most destructive abilities in the manga. He had no problems with Naruto and Bee but had to be taken down for plot reasons.



The tier list will expand once we put every character in each tier. In other word S tier will split up into two, S- and S. Sasuke will then most likely will be voted down to S- tier and Nagato will be voted to stay in S tier.


----------



## Reddan (Sep 20, 2012)

Onoki is firmly in the A Tier for me and I assume we are talking about old Onoki.

Onoki was probably around the same level as Gaara, Muu and Nidaime Mizukage. He has great experience, but a lacks stamina in his old age. Very versatile and huge destructive power. However, lets be honest. Against the former kages he was outshone by Gaara and Naruto. When the Gokage fought Madara he was up there with Tsunade as having the best performance. So overall he is alongside those guys.

SM Naruto is definitely S tier. He is a perfect Sage compared to Jiraiya. He has a more destructive arsenal, more stamina, sensing and frog katas. He pushed Pain further than anyone else in history had. When he met Sasuke, who also is on the S tier it was agreed that if they fought it would end in a draw. 

Asuma is definitely weaker than Gai and Kakashi, but he is still an elite jounin and considering how broad the tiers are at the moment, he is on their level.
*
S Tier*
SM Naruto

*A Tier*
Onoki

*B Tier*
Asuma


----------



## Melodie (Sep 20, 2012)

I voted for Anko to Be in the B tier, why was it switched to C?  Anyway, since we're done from that point, I'll leave it be.​


----------



## Godaime Kazekage (Sep 20, 2012)

Off topic: Why are we separating Naruto and Sasuke via their forms? Shouldn't there be one of each? Naruto in S+ and Sasuke in S?


----------



## Saunion (Sep 20, 2012)

Onoki is underrated. His offensive haxx trumps most defenses except the most broken ones such as Obito's MS, perfect Susano'o or Rinnegan's preta path, which is enough to put him at S tier IMO. People fail to understand that without him the alliance would have been completely fucked against Muu. They just had no counter to Jinton, and that's the same thing for most shinobi out there. Not to mention he's one of the very few ninja who can fly, that his weight control jutsu is far more haxxed than what people give it credit for and that his doton is very interesting for support and defense.

Sage Naruto is A tier due to the various drawbacks of senjutsu such as activation time and lenght of use and Asuma is B tier, solid CQC fighter with a couple of neat long range jutsu but nothing mind blowing.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 20, 2012)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> Off topic: Why are we separating Naruto and Sasuke via their forms? Shouldn't there be one of each? Naruto in S+ and Sasuke in S?



I'm not sure why we are separating them, but since MS Sasuke was voted on, I thought we should vote on SM Naruto as well.

Updated Votes.

*Onoki*
S: Kakashi Hatake, Saunion [2]
A: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, arednad [3]
B:

*SM Naruto*
S: Kakashi Hatake, arednad [2]
A: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Saunion [3]
B:

*Asuma Sarutobi*
S:
A:
B: Kakashi Hatake, Sniffers, hitokugutsu, arednad, Saunion [5]
C:


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Sep 20, 2012)

Onoki: His performance against Madara was possibly the best of all the the Kages, and Madara identified him as the main problem. It was shown that in his old age he was inferior to Muu, even with Gaara's support. He was stated to be weaker than Old Hiruzen, who was stated to be equal with Orochimaru, who in the A tier. 

Vote: A

SM Naruto: This is an example of the tier list being messed up. We were told that if him and MS Sasuke fought each other, they would both die, meaning they are intended to be seen as equals. SM Naruto's benchmark was Jiraiya, which means they are on a similar level with Naruto edging him out. Yet Jiraiya is A tier while MS Sasuke is S tier. I suppose that the way to handle this would be to assume that Jiraiya is at the top of the A tier while MS Sasuke is at the bottom of the S, placing SM Naruto at the very bottom of the S tier.

Vote: S 

Asuma Sarutobi: He was shown to be able to easily defeat nine Chuunin at the same time in just seconds. He was able to hold his own against Hidan, and with the support of Shikmaru he would have defeated Hidan had Kakuzu not healed him. He was also able to keep up with Kisame in CQC. 

Vote: B


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## Danzio (Sep 20, 2012)

Jiariya and Orochimaro should have been ranked higher, easily, but I guess it's dependent  on the voters.


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## Alex Payne (Sep 20, 2012)

*Onoki*
 S: Kakashi Hatake, Saunion [2]
 A: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, arednad, Payne [4]
 B:

*SM Naruto*
 S: Kakashi Hatake, arednad [2]
 A: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Saunion, Payne [4]
 B:

*Asuma Sarutobi*
 S:
 A:
 B: Kakashi Hatake, Sniffers, hitokugutsu, arednad, Saunion, Payne [6]
 C:

Onoki's was portrayed as one of the strongest out of current Kage. Or at least he looked as the most important alongside Tsunade against Madara. In my opinion. He's got rather impressive showings and went against previous generation of Edo Kages together with Gaara. I'd say he is at the top of *A-Tier* together with people like Orochimaru and J-Man.

My vote for Sasuke was for the A-Tier and I am not sure what to do. Should I place Naruto based on the majority's views or based on my personal views? You know what? Fuck you(no offense ). S-Tier has people like Edo(!) Nagato, current Killer B and Minato. I know that the Tiers are broad and we would have S*-* Tier later on but still. Considering rather ambiguous statements regarding MS Sauce vs SM Naruto and a possibility of power-up parallel like: Kirin=FRS, Hebi=SM, MS=KCM, EMS=BM... Naruto was most of the times(if not always) the second to receive a boost. Sharingan was before KN0 against Haku, CS from Orochimaru was before Kyubi training+summoning from Jiraiya, Chidori was before Rasengan, CS2 was a bit before KN1, Kirin was before FRS... you should get my drift already. You can argue that technically Sasuke got MS a bit before SM training was finished but considering Sasuke's growth with MS/main battle and that MS-power up was about Itachi's/bloodline legacy and not Sannin legacy(and don't start with bullshit Itachi=Jiraiya parallel) and that KCM is a lot closer to MS theme-wise... *My vote goes to A*(later A+).

Asuma is solid Elite Jonin in my eyes and by portrayal. A step below Kakashi and Gai even in Part 1 but still tough. *B it is.*


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## Reddan (Sep 20, 2012)

alex payne said:


> *Onoki*
> S: Kakashi Hatake, Saunion [2]
> A: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, arednad, Payne [4]
> B:
> ...



If it helps I think the tiers are going to be split up later. So I think SM Naruto and MS Sasuke being S- tier. Itachi maybe solid S tier and then Minato, Nagato in the S+ tier.


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## Alex Payne (Sep 20, 2012)

I thought that S+ Tier is already created? Or is it like S++? Because with Nagato and Itachi going to S+, Danzo-fight Sasuke can comfortably get to S- imo. Still unsure about SM Naruto though and what to do with KCM Naruto later on.


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## Sniffers (Sep 20, 2012)

arednad said:


> If it helps I think the tiers are going to be split up later. So I think SM Naruto and MS Sasuke being S- tier. Itachi maybe solid S tier and then Minato, Nagato in the S+ tier.


There already is a S+ tier and Nagato and Minato didn't make it. They shouldn't be ranked higher than Itachi anyway. 

I agree MS Sasuke would be S- though, but IMO that placement is shared with KCM Naruto based on the progression parallel alex payne just described.


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## Reddan (Sep 20, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> There already is a S+ tier and Nagato and Minato didn't make it. They shouldn't be ranked higher than Itachi anyway.
> 
> I agree MS Sasuke would be S- though, but IMO that placement is shared with KCM Naruto based on the progression parallel alex payne just described.



That's the thing I don't think Nagato and Minato belong up there with Rinnegan Obito and Edo Madara, but do think they are stronger than Itachi.

Also MS Sasuke at his best was the one with huge black orb of Amaterasu, which it looked like he could spam.


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## Sniffers (Sep 20, 2012)

arednad said:


> That's the thing I don't think Nagato and Minato belong up there with Rinnegan Obito and Edo Madara, but do think they are stronger than Itachi.


The difference being so great that a new tier is required? Could you PM me why you figure that? (It's off-topic here.)


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 20, 2012)

Turrin said:


> It's not that he hasn't been impressive because he has been. Anyone able to defeat Orochimaru, even if it's with their best Jutsu, is extremely impressive in my book when compared to most of the other ninja in the manga. The problem is he hasn't been as impressive as some wish to believe. Killer B and Danzo Fight Sasuke are also overrated. None of those three, especially Danzo Fight Sasuke have any business being in the same Tier as Edo Nagato and Minato. I mean there is absolutely nothing in terms of accomplishments, hype, statements, and portrayal that would put anyone of them in the same Tier as those 2, again especially Danzo Fight Sasuke.
> 
> You can say the Tier is broad, but than Orochimaru and Jiraiya should surely make that Tier as well. But whatever, it's just a fan made Tier list, for the sake of fun, who really cares all that much at the end of the day.



I didn't mean that Itachi wasn't impressive, I mean he wasn't as impressive as some wish him to be. He had a few good moments, but everything else is overexaggerated. 

Indeed, the tier is broad so Orochimaru and Jiraiya should make the S-tier at a minimum. 



Dr. White said:


> lol at Itachi hate.
> 
> Itachi is clearly an extremely rare genius akin to Minato. Sure if you look blindly at the story and read it with no awareness of Portrayal, or hype.
> 
> ...



-So?
-So what if he awoke the Sharingan at 8? Most Uchiha awaken their Sharingans by experiencing emotional distress. You make it sound like it's hard work to get a Sharingan. Becoming Anbu captain is impressive though. 
-Who called them elite Uchihas?? 
-The extremely rare eye ability that you get from killing someone close to you? You make it sound like it's hard work to get the MS. It's also not rare at all, Itachi said that the Uchihas were running around with it during Madara's rule. 
-Forces a handicapped and weaker version of Orochimaru to leave after resisting his soul transfer. 
-Kakashi was fighting equally, until he mistakenly believed that the Sharingan would protect him and for some reason stared Itachi right in the eyes. Later Kakashi fought evenly with Itachi again, this time when neither of them used their MS. 
-That's good for Itachi.
-Obito made a shame deal with Itachi, he had no intention of attacking Konoha and only wanted to complete his plan. Notice that even after Itachi's death, Tobi STILL hasn't attacked Konoha... because he didn't give a shit. He's not Madara. 
-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!! No. He fought Base Bee, a weakened Naruto that didn't want to fight him, needed help against Nagato, and needed major help against Kabuto. Not to mention that this is an immortal regenerating Itachi with unlimited chakra and a completely restored body, not living Itachi. 

He was being forced to fight to win against Bee and Naruto, so he wasn't nonchalant about anything. Bee was in Base and fought evenly with Itachi, Naruto was weakened from dividing his chakra 12 ways and wasn't using his super strength, body flickers, chakra arms, Rasengans, Shadow Clones, etc. and was trying to talk to Itachi. He didn't break Edo Tensei, he was very lucky to have been sent after Naruto whom Kabuto did know set a very specific trap for Sasuke that would also inexplicably work on him as well. Sees all of Nagato's abilities while Nagato's fighting Naruto and Bee and ambushes him three times in the fight and never actually fights him directly.

How was Itachi severely handicapped? Because Kabuto's jutsus protected him? I guess Kabuto was handicapped too because Susanoo protected Itachi. Itachi was vastly more powerful than he ever was alive, had significant help from Sasuke (whom saved Itachi 3 times and helped him pull off Izanami). Kabuto was the one handicapped, being up against two powerful opponents, couldn't kill either of them, and didn't summon Edo Tensei (especially since 97% of them were sealed). Not to mention that he only saved the world from Mu, Chiyo, and Kimimaro. He didn't save the Gokage, and how did he get a Christ-like exit? The mere fact that you compare it to Jesus shows your extreme bias... as if the rest of your post didn't.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 20, 2012)

Cont...



Cybore said:


> This post pretty much sums it up:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Most characters are given hype instead of feats. Example, Hashirama. His  only feats are him losing badly to Old Hiruzen, yet by hype his immense  power is considered a fairytale. Also, how was Jiraiya given enough  panel time? He only had one real fight, half of which was off-panel,  against Pein who could easily be S+... and you're trying to knock  Jiraiya down for losing to him. 

Jiraiya =/= Naruto. Jiraiya in base is powerful enough to beat KN4,  Naruto is not. Jiraiya possesses the highest stats in the manga,  rivaling Itachi, and has the largest arsenal of known jutsu as well  powerful summons with their own jutsus, he has infinite Sage Mode, he's a  seal and summoning expert, etc. Naruto may have had a better Sage Mode,  but Jiraiya is just a better ninja. Jiraiya did, without an arm and  almost no jutsus (since they require handseals), face against all six  Peins and they couldn't kill him (not until Jiraiya stopped fighting,  exited Sage Mode, and tried to confirm his theory did they kill him).  The fact is that Nagato said he'd lose. Or, does Itachi lose hype since  he was sub-par against Sasuke? Sire, Tobi said Itachi could had won if  he wanted, but that's hype.

Jiraiya in base and no killer intent was almost killed by KN4. That was  also an armless Orochimaru, so imagine how powerful Orochimaru with arms  is, which is how powerful fans think Jiraiya is since they're rivals.  Also, Pein was losing to KN6, he was saved because of Minato's  appearance. KN8 was busting through CT and Nagato at that point was was pushing himself too hard. 

Jiraiya WTFPWN'd three Peins without being touched once after he figured  out their abilities, having them beat before the genjutsu ever took  effect: Hungry Ghost and Hell were trapped and he was kicking Animal  around like a football. The three also had a general understanding of  Jiraiya's jutsus and weaknesses, but Jiraiya had to learn everything  about Pein the hard way. 

You could see any comment about deceased characters as a "send off." The fact is that Nagato/Pein said he'd lose. 

----

Your logic is faulty. Kisame was hesitant to go after Naruto because of  Jiraiya, he said he was no match and doubted if Itachi was. Had Itachi  of wanted to avoid a confrontation, he could had agreed with Kisame, but  did not. He insisted that he's Jiraiya's equal and went anyway. Kisame also did not disagree, and he had been Itachi's partner for 10 years and went on many missions together for Akatsuki.

Tsukiyomi- Jiraiya has to make eye contact for Itachi to even attempt  it, but a ninja as powerful and experienced as Jiraiya can avoid it just  as so many other characters have avoided looking into a Sharingan.  Tsukiyomi also works by breaking the spirit, but Jiraiya has an  indomitable will, even able to force himself back to life, he should be  able to resist Tsukiyomi if not break it. Sasuke said he broke it  through his sheer desire to kill Itachi. He also has Dome Method  Formation to fight without seeing, and Sage Mode sensing. Each use also  further damages Itachi's sight and drains a chunk of his chakra, so if  it isn't successful the first time then it hinders Itachi for the rest  of the fight. And yes, Jiraiya has a lesser version of Naruto's sensing, he told Fukasaku that he could sense Nagato among the Pein bodies but that none of them looked like Nagato. 

Amaterasu- It's not instant, it's a fireball that Itachi can direct.  Sasuke, Gyuuki, and Ei have all reacted to it. Not only that, but it  burns at a moderate pace. Jiraiya has a 4.5 in speed in base, 5+ in Sage  Mode, can sense it prepping like Nagato did, and has been shown to be  able to seal it. Has the same drawbacks as Tsukiyomi. 

Susanoo- It's weak spots are it's back and beneath Itachi's feat  (Underworld Swamp), it's vulnerable to sound (Frog Call, Frog  Confrontation Singing), it can be restrained (Underworld Swamp, Wild Lion's Mane, War of Words Binding), it can be avoided (the  Gokage each fought against 5 Susanoos). Let's not also forget that using  it drains way Itachi's life-force, the longer he uses it the more it  damages his body and kills him. There's also the loophole presented for Yata's Mirror, that it only stops one attack, it's theoretical to counter it by using more than one attack. 

The funny thing is mastery of the MS is what lead to Itachi being physically weakened, so a healthy Itachi would not have MS.

----

Finally, Hanzo Prime beat the teenage Sannins. Orochimaru said that at 16, regular Sasuke was more powerful than he was at 16, but now Orochimaru is powerful enough to be a threat to EMS Sasuke. The Hanzo that lost to Pein was Rusty Hanzo, Pein even suggested that Hanzo could beat him if he still had his conviction "You don't even know why you're losing to me".



DonutKid said:


> we wank, but we don't hate and downplay other characters unlike certain fandoms.
> 
> tbh, jiraiya being on A-tier seems reasonable, as his counterparts  orochimaru and tsunade are in A-tier. A is also in the same tier. unless  you think jiraiya is one tier above them.
> 
> ...



You're being sarcastic, right?

What has Tsunade shown that can keep up with either Sage Jiraiya or  Armless Orochimaru? And yes, you're basing your opinion of Orochimaru  off of Armless Orochimaru. Orochimaru with arms has an unknown plethora  of jutsus since his hobby has been learning and inventing jutsus for the  last 50 years, he also has Edo Tensei which lets him summon Hashirama,  Tobirama, and Madara which easily puts him at S+. Not to mention that  the jutsus Kabuto used were applications of Orochimaru's hobby. We also don't know what's on Orochimaru's scroll or what he's capable of to make him a threat to EMS Sasuke.


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## αce (Sep 20, 2012)

Why is Jiraiya still discussed?
I thought that ended.

Deal with it?


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## shintebukuro (Sep 20, 2012)

It's silly that Rinnegan Obito can be determined to be a full tier beyond Nagato, yet Nagato cannot be determined to be a full tier beyond KCM Naruto.


I'm going to be honest here: I think the structure of the tier list is really flawed. The tiers being so big do not accomplish anything, and in actuality they make things _more_ complicated than they need to be.


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## αce (Sep 20, 2012)

> I'm going to be honest here: I think the structure of the tier list is  really flawed. The tiers being so big do not accomplish anything, and in  actuality they make things _more_ complicated than they need to be.



ive been saying this but people told me to move on because they already picked the format
this thread is already fucked.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 20, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Why is Jiraiya still discussed?
> I thought that ended.
> 
> Deal with it?



A bunch of Itachi fans voted and decided that the voting was over... wow.



shintebukuro said:


> It's silly that Rinnegan Obito can be  determined to be a full tier beyond Nagato, yet Nagato cannot be  determined to be a full tier beyond KCM Naruto.
> 
> 
> I'm going to be honest here: I think the structure of the tier list is  really flawed. The tiers being so big do not accomplish anything, and in  actuality they make things _more_ complicated than they need to be.



Yup.


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## αce (Sep 20, 2012)

> A bunch of Itachi fans voted and decided that the voting was over... wow.



Jiraiya got A-tier? What's the problem here?
He's clearly not s-tier.


Anyways, moving on.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 20, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Jiraiya got A-tier? What's the problem here?
> He's clearly not s-tier.
> 
> 
> Anyways, moving on.



Nagato, Minato, and Itachi say that you're wrong.

Jiraiya
-----
Ninjutsu: 5, more powerful in SM.
Taijutsu: 4.5, amped up in SM.
Genjutsu: 3, 5+ with Ni Dai Sennin.
Intelligence: 4.5, 5+ with Ni Dai Sennin.
Strength: 4.5, 5+ in SM. 
Speed: 4.5, 5+ in SM.
Chakra: 5, 5+ in SM. 
Handseals: 4.5
-----
Chakra Suppressing Seal
Chou Oodama Rasengan
Deep Fryer
Dome Method Formation
Finger Engraving Seal
Fire Bomb
Fire Sealing Method
Five Element Seal
Flattened Silhouette Manipulation
Food Cart Destroyer
Frog Conversion
Frog Hiding
Giant Fire Bomb
Hair Needle Barrage
Needle Jizou
Oodama Rasengan
Rasengan
Rasenrengan
Sage Mode
Shadow Clone
Summoned Swords
Summoning (Ni Dai Sennin, Gamabunta, Gamaken, etc.)
Toad Oil Fireball
Toad Gourd Prison
Toad Mouth Binding
Toad Oil
Transparency
Underworld Swamp
Wild Lion's Mane
-Dust Cloud
-Fire Blast
-Frog Call
-Frog Confrontation Singing
-Frog Shop
-Reverse Summoning
-Sage Mode
-Summoning
-Toad Oil
-War of Words Binding
-War of Words Decapitation
-Water Bullet
-Wind Blast

Yeah, he's clearly A-tier with Kakashi and Tsunade...


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## Dr. White (Sep 20, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> I didn't mean that Itachi wasn't impressive, I mean he wasn't as impressive as some wish him to be. He had a few good moments, but everything else is overexaggerated.
> 
> Indeed, the tier is broad so Orochimaru and Jiraiya should make the S-tier at a minimum.
> 
> ...



 You can't be serious DeadPool 

-Your obviously letting Bias get in the way.
-You need talent/emotional distress to fully awaken Sharingan hence why Sasuke awoke it at age 6 but couldn't use it until 12. Hence why Obito also unlocked it at an older age.
-The 3 Uchihas who were in charge of the meetings that pressed Itachi about Shisui.
-Kakashi didn't kill someone close to him, he worked hard/trained. Itachi didn't kill shisui the killing your BF part was a lie...
-Itachi never stated all Uchiha were running around with MS..Only Madara and Izuna awakened it in his day, and since then only Itachi, Sasuke, shisui and obito have. Fugaku explictly said it was an extremely rare gift only unlocked by gifted Uchiha....
-Stop making excuses. Akatsuki Orochimaru tried to overcome Itachi and failed. He obviously knew he had the sharingan so he underestimated him and paid for it. Portrayal wise Kishi is obviously saying something here, to have Itachi again defeat Oro and his summon nigh effortlessly makes me question if you know what portrayal is.
-Kakashi was not fighting equally with Itachi. Itachi was hand signing faster than Kakashi could see, and obviously portrayed to be stronger. Once again stop  making excuses dude, if you look into someone elses eye that sht is on you. Don't look an uchiha in the eye if you do you will lose and Kakashi did no excuses. That is like saying Tobi lost because he was using Hashirama's body cast, and didn't know Minato touching him woud result in a tag 
-You obviously do not read this manga... Tobi attacked *Konoha immediatly after Itachi's death* . Right after Zetsu confirms his death Tobi says now that Itachi is gone I can attack Konoha.... Then he has Pain go nuke the town to get the nine tails. Are you serious right now?

It was confirmed that Itachi was taking it easy on all Konoha ninja and Naruto and double spying on Akastsuki.

Base Bee got burnt by Itachi's katon and trapped in a genjutsu. Also effortlessly shadowed him and dodged his sword skills.

KCM Naruto had no choice but to properly defend himself, and showed against Nagato he was willing to put their Edo versions down but nice excuse. Why the hell would Naruto have just not attacked an Edo he didnt know was gonna swtich sides and he thought was going to kill him or the alliance? Think man

Itachi was handicapped for the following reasons:
-He had to protect a much less experienced Sasuke.
-Could not physically harm Kabuto, which put him on the defensive the whole time and allowed Kabuto to use jutsu on him he could not normally use.
-Had no knowledge on Kabuto's skill set while the latter had full knowledge minus 1 technique on Itachi.
-Was forced to fight Kabuto in a confined area in which Kabuto was accustomed to and prepped a strat using the setting.
-Could literally only win with one jutsu.


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## αce (Sep 20, 2012)

Oh this argument again.
When you're the only person who voted s-tier, it's a safe assumption that you're reasoning is severely flawed. If Jiraiya is s-tier, so is Orochimaru given the obvious rival portrayal that Kishimoto set up.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 20, 2012)

Imo, Sage Naruto should be restricted to his showing in the Pain fight for the purposes of this vote, as his power fluctuated dramatically afterward when gaining Kurama's chakra. 

Ah, and because some people were asking, the tiers themselves are not in order of power. They're actually ordered by character-length, so A will always be at the bottom, for instance.​


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 20, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> You can't be serious DeadPool
> 
> -Your obviously letting Bias get in the way.
> -You need talent/emotional distress to fully awaken Sharingan hence why Sasuke awoke it at age 6 but couldn't use it until 12. Hence why Obito also unlocked it at an older age.
> ...



-Itachi was better than everyone else, so was Sasuke, so was Kakashi, etc. Who's bias here?
-Unlocking the Sharingan is a moot argument, and all Uchihas we've seen have 3 tomoe Sharingans, even the fodders that Itachi beat up.
-Itachi, Sasuke, Madara, and Izuna all got theirs from the death of someone close to them whether they did it or were involved. 
-Itachi told Sasuke that the bloody history of the Uchiha clan was that the Uchihas killed their best friends for the MS, and then killed each other to make it permanent. Yes, there were others with MS/EMS under Madara's reign. 
-Orochimaru isn't underestimating anyone by being forced to look a Sharingan user in the eyes to trade bodies, it was a necessary risk. These are not excuses, they are the facts. Orochimaru was dying and needed to trade bodies, he was thus weakened and had no killer intent, and he couldn't take Itachi's body. Itachi also later confronted an Armless Orochimaru that couldn't move and used the last of his chakra to emerge from Sasuke with his Hydra jutsu.
-Kakashi was fighting equally with Itachi, he wasn't that fast since Kakashi did keep up with his handseals; not that it matters since a lot of elite characters don't even use handseals- what does Kakashi do against them? Hmm? The truth is if Itachi could had so easily dominated Kakashi, then he wouldn't had needed to resort to one of his trump cards, he could had just knocked him out. 

Tobi didn't attack Konoha, Nagato did, and before that he sent Itachi there. 

Edo Itachi was not taking it easy on anyone, he wasn't allowed to. He was fighting to win because of Kabuto's control. He didn't give information to anyone, he was a horrible spy. 

So? Itachi had to retreat from Bee's sword dance and Nagato had to save Itachi from Bee's sword. 

Naruto was talking to Itachi the whole time, obviously he wasn't going to learn anything even if it were possible for him to beat Itachi in one attack. Naruto's Body Flicker is faster than V2 Ei, no one was faster than Ei except Minato, that means Naruto > Ei > Itachi. But, Naruto didn't use his speed. Not only that, but Naruto didn't use his super strength to punch holes through Itachi's chest or smash his arms, Itachi is just a normal human physically while Naruto can hold open a Bijuu's mouth. He also didn't use Rasenshuriken variants, Shadow Clones, etc. He also did divide his chakra 12 ways for the other Shadow Clones he made, which weakened him. He tried to make another Shadow Clone after that fight and it was revealed that he was running on empty. Think man. 

-He only really protected Sasuke once, Sasuke protected Itachi twice, and they helped each other a couple times. 
-Could not physically harm Kabuto because he healed fast, could turn to water, respawn, and was super fast, in addition to Edo Tensei. And what other jutsu could Kabuto use that he normally couldn't? 
-Proof that Kabuto knew everything about Itachi? Haven't you made an argument before that a lack of information is part of a fight? So why is that different now because Itachi's involved? 
-Sort of like how Itachi beat Deidara, hmm?
-Right, but that's because of Kabuto's skill set. Why are you trying to say that Kabuto being powerful is a handicap to Itachi? lmao.



♠Ace♠ said:


> Oh this argument again.
> When you're the only person who voted s-tier, it's a safe assumption  that you're reasoning is severely flawed. If Jiraiya is s-tier, so is  Orochimaru given the obvious rival portrayal that Kishimoto set  up.



When I was the only one voting who wasn't an Itachi fan, you mean. Not to mention that this "tier list" is supposed to be a general representation of the entire board's opinions, but so far only a couple people- Itachi fans- voted. Not to mention that you're downplaying Orochimaru, saying that Armless Orochimaru is 100% Orochimaru, not giving him Edo Tensei, and saying that Jiraiya is just as powerful because they're rivals, not to mention ignoring that Orochimaru is established to be a threat to EMS Sasuke whom is obviously going to rank very highly. You are all biased and downplaying them because of their relation to Itachi.


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## αce (Sep 20, 2012)

I think Jiraiya is A-tier and I'm not an Itachi fan.
And WPK is pretty objective.

Don't blame Itachi fans.



> You are all biased and it's showing.



Oh and you aren't
The irony.


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## Inferno (Sep 20, 2012)

I'm pretty sure that, based off of manga portrayal, Jiraiya should be on Itachi's tier.

-Itachi says they'd stalemate
-Pain, referred to as the strongest Akatsuki member, admits that he'd be fucked if Jiraiya knew about Nagato controlling the bodies.
-Kisame, IIRC, says that he doesn't stand a chance against Jiraiya.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 20, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Oh and you aren't
> The irony.



Oh? Just because I actually read the manga? 

Jiraiya can beat Nagato, canon. 
Jiraiya can draw against Itachi, canon. 
Minato says Jiraiya the greatest he knows, canon.
Jiraiya is in a different league than Kisame, canon. 

Now, what tiers are they in?



Inferno said:


> I'm pretty sure that, based off of manga portrayal, Jiraiya should be on Itachi's tier.
> 
> -Itachi says they'd stalemate
> -Pain, referred to as the strongest Akatsuki member, admits that he'd be  fucked if Jiraiya knew about Nagato controlling the bodies.
> -Kisame, IIRC, says that he doesn't stand a chance against Jiraiya.



Indeed.


----------



## Inferno (Sep 20, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Oh? Just because I actually read the manga?
> 
> Jiraiya can beat Nagato, canon.
> Jiraiya can draw against Itachi, canon.
> ...



The Itachi wank here is too bad, man. And Strategoob, of all people, is running the thread. It's useless.


----------



## αce (Sep 20, 2012)

> Oh? Just because I actually read the manga?


No because in your mind Jiraiya is second only to Rikudou.



> Jiraiya can beat Nagato, canon.


Nagato, without being confined to Gedo Mazou, couldn't combat KCM Naruto or Bee without absorbing a significant amount of bijuu chakra. There's a clear difference between the Nagato you're invisioning and the one that proclaimed that Jiraiya may be able to beat him.

This is further supported by the fact that Jiraiya was weaker than the path's, but stronger than Nagato, suggesting Nagato was in a weakened state considering the amped up version that fought Bee and Naruto was stated to be superior to the 6 paths.

If you think Jiraiya can beat Nagato after he stomped on KCM Naruto (above Jiraiya) and Bee (above Jiraiya) you're beyond delusional. Get help bro.



> Jiraiya can draw against Itachi, canon.


Not this shit again.
Itachi was lying.
Kisame's knowledge on Susano-o is highly questionable, seeing as how even Zetsu didn't know about it.



> Minato says Jiraiya the greatest he knows, canon.


Oh the classic student-teacher reference.
Great argument.



> Jiraiya is in a different league than Kisame, canon.


And so is KCM Naruto, yet he was stomped by Nagato casually.
derpaherp.





> Now, what tiers are they in?


Jiraiya's in A-tier.
Minato is S-tier.
Kisame is A-tier.
Nagato is S-tier or S+. Leaning towards S.

Get over it.


----------



## Black☆Star (Sep 20, 2012)

It's probably because the Itachi that was discussed was in Edo state so there's a good reason for him to be there, however, the Itachi that fought Sasuke should be ranked lower unless fans take over.


----------



## αce (Sep 20, 2012)

ANYWAYS MOVING ON FROM OBVIOUS A-TIER CHARACTER. Oonoki should be A-tier. No S-tier is getting stomped, along with another Tsuchikage, by Madara who didn't do anything but glance at him.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 20, 2012)

Oonoki is not A- Tier. He has extreme will power in his current state backed by his amazing feats.
-Light/heavy jutsu- can be used to amplify speed, fly, stop meteors hold islands, or weigh someone down completely.

-Doton- Can be used to create huge golems for attack/defense, or make his fist extremely hard, enough to burst Nidaime Mizukage's clam.

-Jinton Self explanatory deadliness


----------



## αce (Sep 20, 2012)

> Oonoki is not A- Tier. He has extreme will power in his current state backed by his amazing feats.
> -Light/heavy jutsu- can be used to amplify speed, fly, stop meteors hold islands, or weigh someone down completely.



Yeah, this is all impressive. But I still can't get over the fact that Madara wasn't trying, by his own admission, and still floored Oonoki *and* Muu. Think about that for a second. 

If S-tiers get casually stomped on by EMS Madara who wasn't trying then it's a pretty disgraceful list. S-tier is highly prestigious.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 20, 2012)

Inferno said:


> I'm pretty sure that, based off of manga portrayal, Jiraiya should be on Itachi's tier.
> 
> -Itachi says they'd stalemate
> -Pain, referred to as the strongest Akatsuki member, admits that he'd be fucked if Jiraiya knew about Nagato controlling the bodies.
> -Kisame, IIRC, says that he doesn't stand a chance against Jiraiya.



Itachi is > Jiraiya but they are on the same tier. Same with Minato.

@Deadpool I am not debating with you because it is clear you have an extremely warped sense of this manga, or lack reading comprehension skill enough that us deabting any further would just annoy me too much.


----------



## αce (Sep 20, 2012)

Oh I didn't mean A-
That was a dash.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 20, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> No because in your mind Jiraiya is second only to Rikudou.
> 
> Nagato, without being confined to Gedo Mazou, couldn't combat KCM Naruto or Bee without absorbing a significant amount of bijuu chakra. There's a clear difference between the Nagato you're invisioning and the one that proclaimed that Jiraiya may be able to beat him.
> 
> ...



Haha, you're funny. Jiraiya in in the third highest tier, along with Itachi and Nagato. Behind Madara, who's in the second tier, and Rikudou who's in the first. 

Cripple Nagato was the one giving KCM Naruto and Bee a hard time, he also didn't need to move to do what he did to Naruto (the chameleon held him while Nagato tried to remove his soul, and absorbed any attacks Naruto made to try to stop him). Nagato could also use Gedo Mazo against Jiraiya, but not Naruto, he also had access to the chakra of all 7 Bijuus which he could draw from to make himself healthy again if needed. The Nagato I'm thinking of is exactly the same, you're trying to make them different. 

How was Jiraiya weaker than the Six Paths? All six of them working together couldn't kill a crippled Jiraiya. Nagato, even emanciated, had more powerful versions of all of Pein's abilities, could use all five elements, and knew other powerful jutsus. The one that fought Jiraiya could do everything that the one that fought Naruto and Bee could, plus summon Gedo Mazo, plus summon Pein, plus absorb Bijuu chakra from Gedo Mazo. 

You're placing BEE above Jiraiya????!!! WTF??? That's it, your opinion no longer matters. 

Itachi had no reason to lie. 
Yet he didn't think Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi, or anything else under Itachi's sleeve would had gotten the job done. 

Disprove it. 

Yet Nagato would get beaten by Jiraiya. Derp. 

Kisame is A-tier, and Jiraiya is above him (S-tier).
Nagato is S or S+, and Jiraiya can compete against him. 
Itachi is S-tier, and Jiraiya can compete against him. 
That makes Jiraiya S-tier. 

Get over it.



Dr. White said:


> @Deadpool I am not debating with you because  it is clear you have an extremely warped sense of this manga, or lack  reading comprehension skill enough that us deabting any further would  just annoy me too much.



You're not debating anymore because you have no counter arguments. You are the one with very warped views that you cannot justify, so you insult me instead.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 20, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Yeah, this is all impressive. But I still can't get over the fact that Madara wasn't trying, by his own admission, and still floored Oonoki *and* Muu. Think about that for a second.
> 
> If S-tiers get casually stomped on by EMS Madara who wasn't trying then it's a pretty disgraceful list. S-tier is highly prestigious.



EMS Madara should be High end S Tier, or S+ Tier below Hashirama. That gives two whole tiers of S and S- for elite ninja to fill. Onooki should fall in the S- Category.


----------



## Black☆Star (Sep 20, 2012)

This list is gonna be so flawed


----------



## αce (Sep 20, 2012)

> This list is gonna be so flawed



letter tiers
already is


----------



## GaaraFromTheHood (Sep 20, 2012)

Jesus Christ, a whole page and no voting for the characters? Can we please moderate this? The voting started off good and then people are arguing about two characters that we are not even voting for. I understand this is a pretty good discussion with people that can make great arguments, but the most basic instruction is that you stay on topic, and respect the voting. If you think someone should be in whatever tier, then make a compelling argument that convinces others, but don't come here to complain about the result. 

*SM Naruto: *I disagreed with placing MS Sasuke on the S tier (but respect the voting), and I think that SM Naruto should be in the *A tier* as well. SM Naruto was shown to hang with Pain but had plenty of knowledge, plenty of help in terms of Pain not being at full power, and plenty of assistance from all the frogs. Granted, the summons are part of your power, but what I'm saying is that he was hanging with Pain with a lot of help, period. Also, once he ran out of Sennin Mode he was done. I don't think SM Naruto can hang with Killer Bee nor Minato or Itachi, so I'm reserving S tier for KCM and BM Naruto. 

*Oonoki:* best current kage, Jinton + Flying + heavy/light weight change techniques make him very powerful. Plus defense is great with doton. *A tier*

*Asuma:* as stated already, a classic elite jounin, not quite up there with the best of the best (Kakashi and Gai) but a level below, so B. 


*Onoki*
S: Kakashi Hatake, Saunion [2]
A: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, arednad, Payne, Orochimaruwantsyourbody, GaaraFromTheHood [6]
B:

*SM Naruto*
S: Kakashi Hatake, arednad, Orochimaruwantsyourbody [3]
A: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Saunion, Payne, GaaraFromTheHood [5]
B:

*Asuma Sarutobi*
S:
A:
B: Kakashi Hatake, Sniffers, hitokugutsu, arednad, Saunion, Payne, Orochimaruwantsyourbody, GaaraFromTheHood [8]
C:


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 20, 2012)

Lol at Itachi S- Tier


----------



## αce (Sep 20, 2012)

Oonoki: *A Tier*
Asuma: *B Tier*
SM Naruto: *A Tier*


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 20, 2012)

Ochema said:


> What planet are you on, sir?



Earth. 

Itachi wasn't lying because if he wanted to avoid confrontation with Jiraiya, he could had just agreed with Kisame and left. He didn't.



Dr. White said:


> Lol at Itachi S- Tier



Lol at your bias.


----------



## Ezekial (Sep 20, 2012)

The list so far:

S+
Rinnegan Obito (with Pain)
Bijū Mode Naruto
Edo Madara 

S
Edo Nagato
Mangekyō Sasuke (Danzō Fight)
Killer Bee
Minato
Itachi

MS Sasuke same tier as Nagato = 
Bee on Nagato's level = 
Obito and Naruto above Madara = 
Minato above Itachi =  

LMAO I will never, ever use this list, it is by far the shittest one ever,


----------



## Ezekial (Sep 20, 2012)

Dude your list is beyond stupid I mean seriously Sasuke on Nagato's level? Do you even read the manga?


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 20, 2012)

From your initial post, you seem to think Sasuke at the time of the Danzō fight is above Nagato, to which I disagree, but if you read the thread, you'd know that the individuals within the tiers aren't ordered by power and that each tier will be subdivided later. 

But by all means, continue to pointlessly complain without adequate understanding, for I crave flamebait and amusement, and I don't mind you wasting your time one bit. The thread has a simple rule, and it's that majority rules. Your opinions aren't my problem.​


----------



## Ezekial (Sep 20, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> From your initial post, you seem to think MS Sasuke is above Nagato, to which I disagree, but if you read the thread, you'd know that the individuals within the tiers aren't ordered by power and that each tier will be subdivided later.​



By "MS Sasuke below Nagato =  " I meant he does not belong right below him, he belongs several tiers below.

Subdivided means nothing when they're place so close together


----------



## Inferno (Sep 20, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> The list so far:
> 
> S+
> Rinnegan Obito (with Pain)
> ...



Nothing wrong with Sasuke below Nagato. Nagato > Edo Itachi > MS Sasuke.

Bee is a couple spaces below Nagato, but I'd sort of agree.

Full power Obito > Madara. Agreed on Naruto though.

Minato >= Itachi.


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## Ezekial (Sep 20, 2012)

Obito above Madara  My god what have these forums come to?

Madara is clearly Obito's superior and clearly has better feats.

Bee got stomped by Nagato, that is all

Sasuke is no where near Nagato's level, not even close


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Sep 20, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> When I was the only one voting who wasn't an Itachi fan, you mean.


So 13 of the 14 people who voted on that poll were Itachi fans?

I think you need to take a break because your paranoia has reached critical mass. I for one am in no way an Itachi fan, he doesn't even break my top ten. If anything, as a huge Orochimaru fan I'd be biased against Itachi if anything.



♠Ace♠ said:


> And WPK is objective.
> .


Fixed


----------



## Inferno (Sep 20, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Obito above Madara  My god what have these forums come to?
> 
> Madara is clearly Obito's superior and clearly has better feats.
> 
> ...



Madara can't do jack-shit to Obito, literally. Obito w/Jinchuurikis has a higher DC, too.

Agreed on rest.


----------



## Ezekial (Sep 20, 2012)

Is this supposed to be the "official tier list" of NF or something? honest question


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 20, 2012)

It's a tier list discussion thread. The title makes that clear. I don't know why you put your supposition in quotes when it wasn't stated.​


----------



## Ezekial (Sep 21, 2012)

Just sayin' if you would like a sensible list based on feats/hype and power then I suggest you read mine, I suggest you seriously re think your list, as it is in all meaning of the word.


----------



## DonutKid (Sep 21, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> When I was the only one voting who wasn't an Itachi fan, you mean.



so, itachi fan= jiraiya hater. thinks jiraiya is A tier=itachi fan. 
that's over generalisation, i'm an itachi fan but i like jiraiya too.  




UltimateDeadpool said:


> Jiraiya can beat Nagato, canon.
> Jiraiya can draw against Itachi, canon.
> Minato says Jiraiya the greatest he knows, canon.
> Jiraiya is in a different league than Kisame, canon.



lol. nagato gave jiraiya time to get into SM, but he still can't defeat 2+1 support paths. jiraiya with no prep vs 6 straight paths, go figure.

seen this billion times, not gonna argue. 

and minato says 'Back then... He saw through every move I made'.

hype. feats say otherwise.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 21, 2012)

> S
> 
> Mangekyō Sasuke (Danzō Fight)
> Edo Nagato
> ...



DAFUQ ?

How can thse shinobi be on the same tier ?


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 21, 2012)

Does people read or what?

The tier list is going to get split up later on that means Sasuke will be moved down to S- tier.


----------



## DonutKid (Sep 21, 2012)

OP needs to underline the splitting up of tiers.


----------



## Ezekial (Sep 21, 2012)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> DAFUQ ?
> 
> How can thse shinobi be on the same tier ?



That what I said, but apparently this has been voted, Sasuke and Bee on Nagato's & Itachi level is just  

Minato at a push.



Kakashi Hatake said:


> Does people read or what?
> 
> The tier list is going to get split up later on that means Sasuke will be moved down to S- tier.



Yes because that fixes everything, Sasuke is league's below Nagato, at least MS Sasuke is, MS Sasuke the one who Bee ROFLSTOMPED?


----------



## Reddan (Sep 21, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Yes because that fixes everything, Sasuke is league's below Nagato, at least MS Sasuke is, MS Sasuke the one who Bee ROFLSTOMPED?



No Bee did not fight MS Sasuke. Bee fought a Sasuke that was probably even weaker than Hebi Sasuke.

MS Sasuke has a complete Susano'o and spams Amaterasu shurikens.


----------



## Quab (Sep 21, 2012)

I don't know why people are complaining about the tiers.  Their going to be subdivided.

If we look at it, the "S+ Tier" is going to be handily stronger than the "S Tier", and the "S- Tier" will clearly be weaker than the "S Tier". Go relook at the tiers, and notice that the "S+ Tier people" are handily stronger than the "S Tier people", and then when we divide it up, the "S- Tier people" will be weaker than the "S Tier people".  So let's just debate.  I'm posting my analysis of Asuma, Onoki, and Naruto (Sage Mode) later.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 21, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Yes because that fixes everything, Sasuke is league's below Nagato, at least MS Sasuke is, MS Sasuke the one who Bee ROFLSTOMPED?



I don't care what you say now, MS Sasuke placement has been voted on and majority voted for him to be in S tier. If you continue to post off topic post then I'm going to report you.

If you think his leagues below said character then you should have made your opinion heard when the voting for MS Sasuke took place. When we complete the tier, we will discuss MS Sasuke again, so you can wait until then to discuss his placement. Until then we now have moved on to discuss Onoki, SM Naruto and Asuma. 

And BTW MS Sasuke is the one who can use Susano and spam Amaterasu arrows. The one Bee fought is weaker than Hebi Sasuke. That was basically base Sasuke with one off Amaterasu.


----------



## hitokugutsu (Sep 21, 2012)

arednad said:


> No Bee did not fight MS Sasuke. Bee fought a Sasuke that was probably even weaker than Hebi Sasuke.
> 
> *MS Sasuke has a complete Susano'o and spams Amaterasu shurikens*.



Tbh this is also the MS Sasuke that I ranked for S tier. Although OP mentioned it being Sasuke during Danzo fight (which I guess I would put at A+ tier in hindsight), I ranked him as *full potential MS Sasuke* (which we saw briefly vs Kakashi) anyway

OP should just remove the "Danzo fight" part behind MS Sasuke then all is well


----------



## Eliyua23 (Sep 21, 2012)

There are many disagreements , but for sake of Thr thread Sage Naruto surpassed Jiriyia and should at least be on the tier with the Sannin, Onoki has shown himself to be at least as strong as Tsunade who is also on the A tier . Asuma is at least as strong as Pt 1 Kakashi who is on the B tier

Sage Naruto= A tier

Onoki = A tier

Asuma= B tier



BM Naruto needs help from 4 Kage level shinobi to face Obito yet he's on the same tier as him, he's above Minato although he hasn't surpassed him yet?


Itachi on a different tier than Sannin , despite the data stats, story structure, statements in the manga , feats saying other wise ?

NF is far too divided to come up with a solid non-bias tier list


It's too divided between Itachi vs Minato fans


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 21, 2012)

GaaraFromTheHood said:


> Jesus Christ, a whole page and no voting for the characters? Can we please moderate this? The voting started off good and then people are arguing about two characters that we are not even voting for. I understand this is a pretty good discussion with people that can make great arguments, but the most basic instruction is that you stay on topic, and respect the voting. If you think someone should be in whatever tier, then make a compelling argument that convinces others, but don't come here to complain about the result.



This^^^^

And updated votes.

*Onoki*
S: Kakashi Hatake, Saunion [2]
A: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, arednad, Payne, Orochimaruwantsyourbody, GaaraFromTheHood, Ace, Eliyua23 [8]
B:

*SM Naruto*
S: Kakashi Hatake, arednad, Orochimaruwantsyourbody [3]
A: Sniffers, hitokugutsu, Saunion, Payne, GaaraFromTheHood, Ace, Eliyua23 [7]
B:

*Asuma Sarutobi*
S:
A:
B: Kakashi Hatake, Sniffers, hitokugutsu, arednad, Saunion, Payne, Orochimaruwantsyourbody, GaaraFromTheHood, Ace, Eliyua23 [10]
C:


----------



## Ezekial (Sep 21, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> I don't care what you say now, MS Sasuke placement has been voted on and majority voted for him to be in S tier. If you continue to post off topic post then I'm going to report you.
> 
> If you think his leagues below said character then you should have made your opinion heard when the voting for MS Sasuke took place. When we complete the tier, we will discuss MS Sasuke again, so you can wait until then to discuss his placement. Until then we now have moved on to discuss Onoki, SM Naruto and Asuma.
> 
> And BTW MS Sasuke is the one who can use Susano and spam Amaterasu arrows. The one Bee fought is weaker than Hebi Sasuke. That was basically base Sasuke with one off Amaterasu.



I dont care what you say because this list is fucking stupid, anyone who actually reads the manga unlike you would know that Sasuke is no where near Nagato's level, And stomped his emo ass and "killed" him twice then fooled him, and I will always use MY list as it's far more accurate then this failure


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 21, 2012)

Then don't post here, majority people voted on Sasuke to be on S tier. Deal with it. 

Of course his not on Nagato level, the tier list is going to split up later. How many times do I have to say that? 

His going to end up in S- tier later on. This is all of topic, try to stay on topic.


----------



## Ezekial (Sep 21, 2012)

Fine, I'll put forward my argument for why Bee and Sasuke are NOT on Nagato's and Itachi's level.

Sasuke (MS) - struggled against Danzo and would have lost against him if it weren't for Karin, Sasuke had no knowledge of Izanagi or Danzo's summon he was saved by PNJ and that's a fact.

- He lost to Bee, plain and simple, Bee would have killed him twice if it wasnt for Taka then Bee fooled him, end of.

- Bee & Sasuke 

Are no where Nagato's level for the simple fact that Nagato has the Rinnegan, it took the combined efforts of the Hachibi, Edo Itachi, RM Naruto and Kabuto's lack of control to finish him, and if you want to use feats then Konoha's destruction says hi.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 21, 2012)

You can bring that argument up when we discuss Sasuke later on. We're discussing on Onoki, SM Naruto and Asuma. So please don't try to take the focus of these characters.


----------



## Quab (Sep 21, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Fine, I'll put forward my argument for why Bee and Sasuke are NOT on Nagato's and Itachi's level.
> 
> Sasuke (MS) - struggled against Danzo and would have lost against him if it weren't for Karin, Sasuke had no knowledge of Izanagi or Danzo's summon he was saved by PNJ and that's a fact.
> 
> ...



We already discussed Sasuke's placement in this thread.  If you want, you should post your own thread about "Sasuke being weaker than Bee/or Nagato".  Right now we are discussing the characters on the front page, so please just stay ontopic and vote (with your analysis).  If not, then refrain from posting in this thread.


----------



## Ezekial (Sep 21, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Then don't post here, majority people voted on Sasuke to be on S tier. Deal with it.
> 
> Of course his not on Nagato level, the tier list is going to split up later. How many times do I have to say that?
> 
> His going to end up in S- tier later on. This is all of topic, try to stay on topic.



S- tier is not much different then S tier, he does not belong there either EMS Sasuke might but just MS? U SERIOUS?

And can I ask who will be on S- tier aswell? Itachi? Minato? LMAOOOO He doesn't belong near them either, this is clearly an incredibly biased list.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 21, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> You can bring that argument up when we discuss Sasuke later on. We're discussing on Onoki, SM Naruto and Asuma. So please don't try to take the focus of these characters.



Reposting!!!

Don't try to take the focus of these three characters we are currently discussing. You can bring up your argument for MS Sasuke later on when we do discuss him. If majority people agree with you then we can drop him down to A tier as you wish. This thread isn't all about Sasuke.

Majority rules!


----------



## Sniffers (Sep 21, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> It's silly that Rinnegan Obito can be determined to be a full tier beyond Nagato, yet Nagato cannot be determined to be a full tier beyond KCM Naruto.
> 
> 
> I'm going to be honest here: I think the structure of the tier list is really flawed. The tiers being so big do not accomplish anything, and in actuality they make things _more_ complicated than they need to be.





♠Ace♠ said:


> ive been saying this but people told me to move on because they already picked the format
> this thread is already fucked.





UltimateDeadpool said:


> Yup.



Okay, there's a lot of negative feedback on the current structure. Honestly, I'm not entirely clear where the borderlines of the tiers are anymore either. Any suggestions to solve this? Or do we continue?


----------



## Reddan (Sep 21, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> Okay, there's a lot of negative feedback on the current structure. Honestly, I'm not entirely clear where the borderlines of the tiers are anymore either. Any suggestions to solve this? Or do we continue?


I would suggest starting again and making the tiers much smaller.

I would start off with Edo Madara in a tier all by himself. I think most people would agree on this. 

Then maybe a second tier with EMS Madara, Harashima and any one else.

To be in a tier with someone you have to be able to give each other a good fight, unless it's a terrible match up ie Muu and Nidaime Mizukage are in the same tier, VOTE Sasuke and VOTE Naruto, Gai and Kakashi


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 21, 2012)

We can't keep starting over and over again just because some people does not like how the voting process went. 

UltimateDeadPool is complaining because he wanted Jiraiya to be in S tier when 13 people voted for him to be in A tier. He was the only one who wanted Jiraiya to be in S tier. 

*What I say is we start of with broad tier*, since many people have problem with Sasuke being in the same tier as Nagato even though we are going to split the tiers later on.


----------



## Sniffers (Sep 21, 2012)

arednad said:


> I would suggest starting again and making the tiers much smaller.
> 
> I would start off with Edo Madara in a tier all by himself. I think most people would agree on this.
> 
> ...


Too many tiers proved problematic too. The problem is some people need more tiers than others, but there can only be one. So this becomes almost impossible. The only fair way I can think of is to use Naruto's own progression.

So FRS Naruto being a poster boy for one tier, SM Naruto for another, KCM Naruto and so on. In that sense the definition of how the tiers are formed and where the borderlines are are locked.



Kakashi Hatake said:


> We can't keep starting over and over again just because some people does not like how the voting process went.
> 
> UltimateDeadPool is complaining because he wanted Jiraiya to be in S tier when 13 people voted for him to be in A tier. He was the only one who wanted Jiraiya to be in S tier.
> 
> What I say is we start of with broad tier, since many people have problem with Sasuke being in the same tier as Nagato even though we are going to split the tiers later on.


The problem I'm having is that the number of participants is rather low. So five people saying it's not working out for them is a relatively large number if you ask me. However, I do agree that there will always be complaints and we can't keep starting over. On the other hand, we shouldn't shy away from trying to improve. It's tough IMO.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 21, 2012)

Then I think we should use what Turin said, using Naruto as the poster boy for each tier. But then again, we should vote whether people want to start all over again.

We shouldn't start over just because of 5 people, (One of them doesn't like where Sasuke is placed and the other one doesn't like where Jiraiya is placed.)


----------



## Quab (Sep 21, 2012)

Starting over in this "Tier List" would be useless as the results would still be the same.  It's just like a presidential election, whoever attains the most votes wins.  For this thread, whoever gets the most votes into a "certain tier" then they are listed in it that "tier".  

It's rather simple really, because "people" are placing characters into "tiers" not the OP.  Everyone's opinions are wanted and encouraged in this thread.  For the people who complained, they shouldn't be complaining because if majority rules then just accept it (just like voting in every democratic or republic system).


----------



## Sniffers (Sep 21, 2012)

Since most of the troubles come from the upper tiers, how about we introduce the S- and A+ at this stage? Perhaps we could define a Z tier for Edo Madara (and others?). See if that solves it without starting from scratch. Is this an idea?


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## Quab (Sep 21, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> Since most of the troubles come from the upper tiers, how about we introduce the S- and A+ at this stage? Perhaps we could define a Z tier for Edo Madara (and others?). See if that solves it without starting from scratch. Is this an idea?



I think we should focus on more characters, so we can place it into the tiers.  To be honest, I believe that we'll get to the S- and A+ tier list but it'll take time.  After getting all the characters, it will be clear about who belongs in the sub-tiers.


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## Reddan (Sep 21, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> Too many tiers proved problematic too. The problem is some people need more tiers than others, but there can only be one. So this becomes almost impossible. The only fair way I can think of is to use Naruto's own progression.
> 
> So FRS Naruto being a poster boy for one tier, SM Naruto for another, KCM Naruto and so on. In that sense the definition of how the tiers are formed and where the borderlines are are locked.



That is not a bad idea since Naruto has started right at the bottom and progressed right to the top. Would cause less trouble. Personally I don't think there is much wrong with the tiers as it is as the moment, especially when S-, A+ and A- are decided.


----------



## Sniffers (Sep 21, 2012)

Quab said:


> I think we should focus on more characters, so we can place it into the tiers.  To be honest, I believe that we'll get to the S- and A+ tier list but it'll take time.  After getting all the characters, it will be clear about who belongs in the sub-tiers.


Apparently, people are having troubles with how broad the tiers are at the moment. At least that is what I am seeing right now. Personally I think we should try to settle it before proceeding.



arednad said:


> That is not a bad idea since Naruto has started right at the bottom and progressed right to the top. Would cause less trouble. Personally I don't think there is much wrong with the tiers as it is as the moment, especially when S-, A+ and A- are decided.


It's Turrin's idea btw. But before starting over we should indeed try adding the S- and A+ tier to see if we can settle some of the problems people are having. Agreed?


----------



## Reddan (Sep 21, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> Apparently, people are having troubles with how broad the tiers are at the moment. At least that is what I am seeing right now. Personally I think we should try to settle it before proceeding.
> 
> 
> It's Turrin's idea btw. But before starting over we should indeed try adding the S- and A+ tier to see if we can settle some of the problems people are having. Agreed?



Yeh agreed.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Sep 21, 2012)

I don't like the multiple Naruto method because I'm not a fan of having multiples of characters. That's one of two things that irks me about our current list: 1. MS Sasuke is too high up and 2. There are multiples of characters. The only character that needs two forms is Madara because he can't actively change between being an Edo and being alive.

Other than those two issues, everything is fine by me.


----------



## Reddan (Sep 21, 2012)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> I don't like the multiple Naruto method because I'm not a fan of having multiples of characters. That's one of two things that irks me about our current list: 1. MS Sasuke is too high up and 2. There are multiples of characters. The only character that needs two forms is Madara because he can't actively change between being an Edo and being alive.
> 
> Other than those two issues, everything is fine by me.



I like multiple characters, because it gives a clearer indication of where people lie. For instance Zabuza, Gai, Kabuto and part 1 Kakashi. Obviously Zabuza died and stopped progressing. The other 3 are far above him. However, using their levels at certain points gives a better indication of the strength of the tier.


----------



## llVIU (Sep 21, 2012)

*very long elaborated list*

sorry for being a bit off-topic but I was directed here, I'd rather have people pm me than post here, please, but here's my oppinion:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Sage of the six paths
Juubi (10 tailed beast)
First hokage, Senju Hashirama (it is said over and over again by Obito and Madara, and other ninjas late in the series that he was considered to be so powerful, that he seemed like a fairy tale. Something that I could look at the edo tensei Madara and say the same)
Madara in his prime (defeated by Hashirama, but with edo/rinnegan and his cells, I think he would've beaten hashirama)
naruto (he's the mary-sue main character, the anime is called naruto)
Uchiha itachi (without disease or edo)(Obito claimed that Itachi would've killed him if Itachi knew a little bit more about his powers; he defeated Kabuto-oro with hardly any help from Sasuke)
Pain (originaly defeated naruto, but naruto became much more overpowered afterwards. Also note that Pain's ability to take souls through human/hell paths are perfect against Kabuto's edo tensei)
Sasuke (he's not the main character, he is supposed to lose, but I predict him fighting naruto in the end and both dying)
Obito (a lot of people complain how it doesn't make sense because around 5 years after his disappearance, he seemed extremely powerful, from a failure ninja to "seeing through any of my movements" - yondaime. But facts are, he was ONLY able to kill some nameless ninjas (including sandaime's nameless bitchy wife) steal the kyuubi for several minutes and easily get his ass kicked by yondaime. It was just convenience that made him able to break the kyuubi seal, and yondaime's stupidity through which he commited suicide, Obito ONLY had one mangekyou power at the time, and still does, because he only has one eye (1 eye=1 power, 2 eyes = 3 powers) not even eternal mangekyou, I don't know why he didn't go blind by now, his eye is exactly like kakashi's eye, maybe he needed both
Kyuubi (a lot of characters seem to have a lot of trouble with this bijuu, while all the other bijuu seem to pale in comparison to kyuubi. The kyuubi was able to fight on equal ground with 2,3,4,5 and 6 tails at the same time, and barely anyone ever said anything about not being able to contain them. Also, Gaara's father always held off the 1 tail which seemed to be by far the weakest bijuu. 8 tails on the other hand, seemed to be about as strong as the third raikage, but only slightly weaker. The sharingan is the good excuse that most Uchiha are stronger than the kyuubi, but this seems to be overpowered, while Pain has the very powerful chibaku tensei and shinra tensei. Do note, Pain was fighting half of the kyuubi's power, because Minato sealed the other half within himself, but I personally think masashi kishimoto is ignoring this fact, hiding behind the excuse that "the power of the kyuubi regenerates")
Kabuto-oro (he just abuses the power of edo-tensei, which he can hardly control in the first place, but greatly overpowered just to make the story slightly more interesting. But the all the edo by Kabuto and Orochimaru were always easily defeated, except for Madara that was actually a new character and had some sort of meaning. However, he would've killed Sasuke if Itachi didn't save him in their fight. Somehow, ever since Sasuke got mangekyou, he got extremely dumb through arrogance)
Konan (almost killed Obito, however she had prior knowledge of his ability, but not all. I'm surprised how she managed to make "billions of explosive tags", with that many, she could've killed all the bijuu combined, even tho she got her ass kicked in 2 seconds by Jiraiya. However she wasn't meant to have a real fight with Jiraiya, and he knew her weakness and had the perfect counter)
Samurai leader (was mainly able to defeat Hanzo because "the good guys have to win" and nobody cared about their fight anyway, they are 2 boring undeveloped characters. Also, Sasuke was easily able to counter his sword, which is pretty much the only thing he can use)
Hanzo (defeated by Pain, but took on the sannin and defeated them)
Yondaime, Minato Namikaze (when the kyuubi attacked, everyone waited for yondaime to save them, not Sarutobi. Actually, Sarutobi hardly did anything at all but to move the kyuubi out of the village)
Sarutobi (sandaime)(it was said that he is the "god of shinobi" just like how the Sage of the six paths was called, however that was around 10 years ago, when the manga was very undeveloped. His pitiful techniques such as fire and simple taijutsu does not prove he is stronger than, for example, lava techniques or Jiraiya's sage mode. He could barely even hold off the Kyuubi, however he fought Orochimaru, Tobirama and Hashirama at the same time, Hashirama who could easily control any bijuu (stated by Danzo at the kage meeting) which would make a illogical cycle of Kyuubi>Sarutobi>Hashirama>Kyuubi. The thing is, the manga was new back then, the idea is that Orochimaru was barely able to defeat Sarutobi, even tho Sarutobi was old, so not as powerful as before (stated by Sarutobi right before he died))
second tsuchikage, Muu (seems like Muu and second mizukage had a fight, and they both killed each other, but I think Muu is stronger. After all, he managed to half-fake his sealing, while mizukage got completely sealed)
second mizukage (seems like Kabuto revived the strongest kage except the sand, where masashi kishimoto wanted to give a special fight for Gaara and his father, otherwise Kabuto would've revived the third kazekage, which was said to be the strongest kazekage, stated by chiyo)
third tsuchikage (his teacher was Muu, but he seemed to be slightly weaker than his teacher, but we have to ignore the fact that he was old (his back problem) the edo tensei on Muu and that he got a lot of help from naurto and Gaara)
Orochimaru (defeated Jiraiya when he left the village, there's a very small flashback showing that)
Jiraiya (even tho Pain said that he would not had been able to win against him if he had prior knowledge, but they both didn't knew much about each other's jutsus (including the genjutsu that got 3 of his bodies killed) so it's fair. Prior knowledge is very important)
Tsunade (the elders claimed they wanted Jiraiya to be hokage, not Tsunade, this slightly implies that Jiraiya is stronger than her)
Kakuzu (would've easily defeated Kakashi, he had help from Hidan while Kakashi had help from ino-shika-choji and they also had prior knowledge, however, they also needed Yamato and naruto to defeat him. Tho his edo tensei got defeated with barely any effort at all. Do note, as blend as he may seem, that he is extremely old, has very good taijutsu, 5 lives, various techniques with all 5 chakra types, even fought Hashirama and he displayed a great deal of intelligence, tho not enough to see through Shikamaru's last trick)
Sasori (his sempai was Orochimaru, meaning he was weaker than him, but he defeated the third kazekage, which was the strongest out of all kazekage. Deidara also said Sasori is "stronger than him... probably" tho these words should not be taken much into consideration)
Kakashi (in the chuunin exams, Kakashi defeated Guy, and the same idea of 51-50 wins for Kakashi seems to remain ~15 later. Kakashi was the one appointed as 7th hokage, not Guy(despite showing us that the feudal lord is a big idiot, it seems that hokage are picked by masashi kishimoto according to their power))
Guy (the "eternal rival" of Kakashi, implying that they're very close in power)
Kisame (even tho he got defeated by the worst kind of opponent, one that does not use chakra, Might Guy, but as his 7th out of 8 gate)
third raikage (from what everyone in the manga said about him, he clearly seems to be even stronger than the fourth raikage, however his brain-dead techniques are not a great leap. He easily got defeated by a naruto clone in sage mode)
8 tailed beast (fought with the third raikage, but seems to have "lost", even tho they both fell unconcious)
B (previously, he was slightly weaker than A, however when he and naruto tried to pass A and Tsunade, B proved that he got stronger than A)
fourth raikage, A (apart from having good taijutsu which would probably not be better than Guy with his gates, he does not seem to have any sort of ninjutsu or genjutsu. Check the databook, Guy is shown to have maximum taijutsu/stamina/speed, and both of these guys seem to be as dumb)
Deidara (his sempai was Sasori, but defeated by Sasuke, and Sasuke would've got defeated by B if it wasn't for his helpers. Also, he seems to fear the third tsuchikage and seems to be somehow blood related or at least friends with his grand-daughter. He had high confidence against sasuke, and yet, he still lost)
Danzo (the main reason why he didn't get to be hokage was either that he was supposed to be left in the dark until late in the series when Sasuke found out the truth, or that he tries to do good things through brutal means, which is widely unacceptable in the leaf. Still, he was weaker than Sarutobi, and got defeated by Sasuke. Note that he did not use Shisui's eye because of the meeting (which makes me strongly think that if he did, Sasuke would not have won), and he only got the sharingans at the Uchiha masacre, but I don't think thieves deserve such recognition)
Second hokage, Senju Tobirama (he was Hashirama's younger brother, so you would expect him to be extremely powerful. His character has not been developed, but he created the edo tensei, and had Sarutobi and Danzo as well as the other 2 elders as students, however this does not prove he was stronger than them, his edo tensei form got blown once by Sarutobi with a mere explosion tag, and he died when he tried to fight 20 ninjas (check Danzo's flashback). Compare this to how the third raikage died. Also, he and the second raikage "barely got away with their lives" when Ginkaku and Kinkaku attacked them, and yet, Ginkaku and Kinkaku seemed relatevly weak, getting defeated by fourth raikage's right hand Darui and 3 chuunin, shika-ino-choji with relative ease.)
Ginkaku and Kinkaku
fifth mizukage (she seems to be a kage on about the same level as Tsunade and Raikage)
the other 2 elders of leaf (they are supposed to be powerful, but their jutsus have not been shown in the slightest)
Hidan (his sempai was Kakuzu, he was newest member next to Tobi (not Obito) which also makes it sound like he is weak compared to the other Akatsuki members)


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## Quab (Sep 21, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> Apparently, people are having troubles with how broad the tiers are at the moment. At least that is what I am seeing right now. Personally I think we should try to settle it before proceeding.



Well "the people", are mainly a one to three posters having difficulty with this tier list.  

One is angry that Jiraiya didn't make it into the "S Tier", even though the concesus agreed he was in the "A Tier", and then he enrages that everyone is "An Itachi fan", which is true and not true.  People have their biases but they know and respect everybodies power/portrayal.  Basically if everyone agrees that he is an "S Tier", he would've been voted in but seeing as how everyone one voted him for the "A Tier", then that's where he belongs (the reasonings behind his placement were already posted in everyones votes).

Another poster is angry that Sasuke (Mangekyo) is put into the same tier as Nagato/and Itachi.  Well the argument could've been swinged both ways, but everyone that voted agreed that Sasuke barely made it into the "S Tier", because of his final mastery over his Susanoo.  We were putting a lot of emphasis on his "Enton Susanno spam".  That's why it pushed him a little up into the bottom "S Tier".  And when we subdivide the tiers, then we can clearly gauge which character belongs in the "S Tier" or "S- Tier".  Their is a difference between "S Tier" and "S- Tier".  The poster got angry cause he thought Sasuke belonged under the "S Tier".  In my opinion, he should've just waited until all "Tier listing" were finished.  

Anyways I just want to vote and debate into who goes into which tiers.  I think we should subdivide after we place everyone in the tier brackets.  I say this because it'll be easier to focus on the "said character" once we finish the generalization of tiers.


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## hitokugutsu (Sep 21, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> Apparently, people are having troubles with how broad the tiers are at the moment. At least that is what I am seeing right now. Personally I think we should try to settle it before proceeding.
> 
> 
> It's Turrin's idea btw. But before starting over we should indeed try adding the S- and A+ tier to see if we can settle some of the problems people are having. Agreed?



Yeah but when Turrin had the other Tier list I also suggested using Naruto as an example since Kishi basically gave us the tiers in this picture:



But not many people wanted it I think?


Either way, I think the lower tiers up until (Elite) Jonin level are fine

Its from the Kage levels things are getting messy. But I also believe Naruto is fine representative for this:

FRS Naruto ~ low Kage
SM Naruto ~ Kage
KCM Naruto ~ High Kage
BM Naruto ~ Elite Kage


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## GaaraFromTheHood (Sep 21, 2012)

A few points: 

We should stick with whatever structure we decided on when we started this thread and then moderate accordingly: *unless you post a vote with an argument on a character we are CURRENTLY DISCUSSING, I don't really want to see your whining and bitching about this thread.*. Those were the rules established, if you don't want to be part of it, don't contribute, don't pay attention, go make your own thread, pm those that are participating about how stupid this is, I don't fucking care, it's 
Otherwise, we are going to start this over and over and over and over....you get the problem with that, dont you?  
It's a discussion, *it's not the OFFICIAL NF list*, it's based on the above rules, DEAL WITH IT 
If we are not following those rules we've been using for most of the 22 pages of the thread so far, let me know so that I can I go mind my own business


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## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 22, 2012)

Lets get this thing moving.

I think we should split up S tier right now. Move Killer Bee and MS Sasuke to S- tier. Voting is not necessary. 

Onoki: Moves to A
SM Naruto: Moves to A
Asuma: Moves to B

Start a new voting on Akatsuki members.

Deidara
Kakuzu
Kisame
Hidan
Konan
Sasori
Zetsu
6 Pain Paths

If no one has any problem with that I say we discuss all Akatsuki members together.


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## Sniffers (Sep 22, 2012)

Quab said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is exactly to solve these quarrels that I think we should add S- and A+ right now. It's just that fan favourites, usually at the top, may require a little more careful consideration which the addition these two tiers allow IMO. I agree that the lower tiers can stay more general for now. We can just vote, while the new discussions are also still pending anyway.



hitokugutsu said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, it doesn't seem to be supported all that much now either. However, we can still properly add these incarnations soon and then they automatically become references.



Kakashi Hatake said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Shall we do the remaining (part II) Naruto and Sasuke incarnations first? They'll make for good references and should be an interesting discussion as well.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Next discussion*

KCM Naruto (war arc), FRS Naruto (Kakuzu fight), Sasuke (part II introduction fight), Hebi Sasuke, OR
Akatsuki

Considering that the story follows the progression of the main characters their incarnations make for good references as they had the most character interaction and comparisons. I think it's a good idea to add these before any other.

Additionally to accommodate these incarnations and to not have multiple occupy the same tier as well as solving issues some people are having with the tiers being too broad I again propose we add the A+ and S- tiers.



*Next discussion vote*
Akatsuki:
FRS/KCM Naruto & (Hebi) Sasuke: Sniffers [1]

*Should we add new tiers?*
No:
Add S- tier:
Add A+ tier:
Add S- & A+ tiers: Sniffers [1]

The vote closes in 24 hours I suppose.


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## Quab (Sep 22, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> It is exactly to solve these quarrels that I think we should add S- and A+ right now. It's just that fan favourites, usually at the top, may require a little more careful consideration which the addition these two tiers allow IMO. I agree that the lower tiers can stay more general for now. We can just vote, while the new discussions are also still pending anyway.



Well I understand your reasoning behind wanting the S- and A+ tiers.  I don't mind, to be honest.  I wanted to do every character before we added the subtiers. but it looks like it can't be helped.  So I'll change my stance and agree we'll add the subtiers to the higher tiers, so we can get a more accurate result when we rank characters or new ones we'll be voting on.  Anyways I'm up for the subtier voting.

Next discussion vote
Akatsuki:
FRS/KCM Naruto & (Hebi) Sasuke: Sniffers [1]
*(I'll think about this one and post it later)*

Should we add new tiers?
No:
Add S- tier:
Add A+ tier:
Add S- & A+ tiers: Sniffers, Quab [2]


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## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 22, 2012)

Next discussion vote
Akatsuki: KH [1]
FRS/KCM Naruto & (Hebi) Sasuke: Sniffers [1]

Should we add new tiers?
No:
Add S- tier:
Add A+ tier:
Add S- & A+ tiers: Sniffers, Quab, KH [3]

I think we should leave Naruto and Sasuke till last. As they are more controversial and likely to cause too much disagreement/conflicts.


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## αce (Sep 22, 2012)

> Should we add new tiers?
> No:
> Add S- tier:
> Add A+ tier:
> Add S- & A+ tiers: Sniffers, Quab, KH, Ace [4]



we really need too


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## Reddan (Sep 22, 2012)

I agree too lets add the + and - tiers.


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## GaaraFromTheHood (Sep 22, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> I think we should leave Naruto and Sasuke till last. As they are more controversial and likely to cause too much disagreement/conflicts.



Agree with this. Naruto and Sasuke versions are prob as controversial as Itachi and Jiraiya/Orochimaru, so rather discuss last. Akatsuki sounds good to me, and agree with adding subdivisions already. 

*Next discussion:*
Akatsuki: KH, GaarafromTheHood [2]
FRS/KCM Naruto & (Hebi) Sasuke: Sniffers [1]

*Should we add new tiers?*
No:
Add S- tier:
Add A+ tier:
Add S- & A+ tiers: Sniffers, Quab, KH, ♠Ace♠, Arednad, GaaraFromTheHood  [6]


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## Sniffers (Sep 23, 2012)

Okay, from the number of votes it's clear that the additional tiers are more important than the next characters to be discussed. With the addition of tiers comes the question of who should fill them. First we should review the characters that were already placed in these brackets; to see whether they move up or down. That vote will open in a good hour.

After which we will move on with a discussion of the Akatsuki or main character incarnations. Probably in that order. Hopefully, once actual discussion starts the number of participants will increase again.


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## hitokugutsu (Sep 23, 2012)

*Next discussion:*
Akatsuki: KH, GaarafromTheHood [2]
FRS/KCM Naruto & (Hebi) Sasuke: Sniffers, hitokugutsu [2]

*Should we add new tiers?*
No:
Add S- tier:
Add A+ tier:
Add S- & A+ tiers: Sniffers, Quab, KH, ♠Ace♠, Arednad, GaaraFromTheHood, hitokugutsu  [7]



GaaraFromTheHood said:


> Agree with this. Naruto and Sasuke versions are prob as controversial as Itachi and Jiraiya/Orochimaru, so rather discuss last. Akatsuki sounds good to me, and agree with adding subdivisions already.



I dont really get it? How can Naruto & Sasuke be that controversial. We know they are equals (perhaps a slight difference, but nothing tier-chaning)
I agreed with Sniffers that we should rank Naruto & Sasuke incarnations first, since they are MC's and tiers are made around them. Instead we're doing the opposite, ranking various characters and see where Naruto & Sasuke fit. It shouldn't be that way


Are there many people who *disagree* with the following MC's ranking?

FRS Naruto ~ Kirin Sasuke           ---> A- tier
SM Naruto ~ CS2/Hebi Sasuke     ----> A+ tier  
KCM Naruto ~ MS Sasuke           ----> S- tier
BM Naruto ~ EMS Sasuke            ---> S+ tier

At best we could argue MS Sasuke being A+ tier, but since know what his full _potential_ with MS would have been back then (had he not been chakra exhausted vs Kakashi & co.) he makes it into S- tier. Not to mention even with underdeveloped Susanoo he took on A+ tier Kage


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## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 23, 2012)

Many people believe SM Naruto = MS Sasuke.


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## hitokugutsu (Sep 23, 2012)

^ Hence my argument that SM Sasuke could have been A+ tier on what he showed vs Danzo.

However, SM=MS is only out there because Naruto & Sasuke received them roughly the same time (despite the theme being that Sasuke always gets his first), and that MS Sasuke & SM Naruto actually faced each other with that statement that "they would both die"

However Naruto wasnt referring to power alone. And even if he was, Naruto explicitly stated that he couldnt defeat Sasuke at his current level



However that argument is vague anyway, since Naruto "saw" something more inside Sasuke, hence him saying he was the only one who could beat him


Either way SM/MS parallel are kinda far-fetchd, and more based on MS Sasuke & SM Naruto "facing" each other battle and that statement Naruto made


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## Sniffers (Sep 23, 2012)

*The S- and A+ tiers are added.*
Please vote which characters in the S tier should move down to the S- tier and which characters in the A tier should move up to the A+ tier.

The next character discussion poll was a tie so it will remain open until the current poll is concluded. Due to the greater number of characters to be placed this should stay open for 2 or 3 days depending on activity.


*Spoiler*: _reference_ 





hitokugutsu said:


> *Next discussion:*
> Akatsuki: KH, GaarafromTheHood [2]
> FRS/KCM Naruto & (Hebi) Sasuke: Sniffers, hitokugutsu [2]
> 
> ...






Note that SM Naruto and Onōki were added to the A tier in the previous vote.

*Spoiler*: _reference_ 





Kakashi Hatake said:


> And updated votes.
> 
> *Onoki*
> S: Kakashi Hatake, Saunion [2]
> ...









*Please vote*

*Characters to move down to the S- tier:*
Edo Nagato:
Minato:
Itachi:
Killer B: Sniffers [1]
Mangekyō Sasuke (Danzō fight): Sniffers [1]

*Characters to move up to the A+ tier:*
SM Naruto (Pain fight): Sniffers [1]
Jiraiya: Sniffers [1]
Orochimaru: Sniffers [1]
Tsunade:
Onōki:
A:



*Reasoning*

*Spoiler*: __ 




Killer B managed fighting on the level of Itachi and Nagato, but he definately seemed to be the one struggling the most. He is a great back-up, but doesn't deserve to stand next to those who basically stole the show and who either had him beat or saved him like some damsel.

MS Sasuke was already barely voted into the S tier, so that obviously corresponds to the S- tier.

Orochimaru defeated Sarutobi, who despite his old age was considered the strongest of the Gokage. So I feel Orochimaru should be slightly above A, Onōki and the other Kage.

Like my previous arguments, Jiraiya is to be on Orochimaru's tier by virtue of them being rivals like the main characters.

SM Naruto surpassed Jiraiya in terms of SM and was tasked to succeed where Jiraiya failed, although with knowledge helping him out. I'd still say that SM Naruto roughly equals Jiraiya. He's probably a little stronger, but not a tiers worth. Experience does play a role here.

Why not move Tsunade up with the other Sannin? She shines in team battles with other people and I'm not counting the Gokage as her power.


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## GaaraFromTheHood (Sep 26, 2012)

*Please vote*

*Characters to move down to the S- tier:*
Edo Nagato:
Minato:
Itachi:
Killer B: Sniffers, GaaraFromTheHood [2]
Mangekyō Sasuke (Danzō fight): Sniffers, GaaraFromTheHood [2]

*Characters to move up to the A+ tier:*
Jiraiya: Sniffers, GaaraFromTheHood [2]
Orochimaru: Sniffers, GaaraFromTheHood [2]
Onōki: GaaraFromTheHood [1]
SM Naruto (Pain fight): Sniffers [1]
A:

*Reasoning1*
I don't think SM Naruto can beat Jiraiya nor Orochimaru. I don't think they'll be fooled/outclassed by multiple versions of rasengans and kage bunshin, plus frog katas. Orochimaru already stopped 4 tail Naruto which is arguably more powerful than SM Naruto, so I just don't see it. Jiraiya might not be the perfect sennin, but he was wayyy more experienced and just showed more on his level, plus he's smarter than Naruto (part experience, part just being an intelligent ninja). Another way to put this is that I can't see SM Naruto beating Raikage A, considering Lit Up Raikage went toe to toe with BM Mode Naruto. So there. 
Oonoki has been the best of the Kage fighting old kages and Madara. He needs to be up there. 

I support anything that can move MS Sasuke down a few steps - in my opinion he's A+ material, but we already missed that boat. Even though he has powerful jutsu, I just think that, again, experience plays a part. All the kages put a beating on him, and he was saved in one way or another (vs. Raikage, saved by Gaara; vs. Mizukage, saved by Zetsu; vs. Tsuchikage, saved by Tobi) He beat Danzo, but it was a close one as well. I don't buy this evolution theory - while he gets credit for literally fighting through 5 kages in succession, he only had enough to win against 1. This is not DBZ and Sasuke is not a Super Saiyan, where after every fight your power level goes up. So in my book, that version of Sasuke can not beat the other four "real" Kages (cheap-shot, since Danzo was never confirmed). So that's all to say, move him down!


----------



## Reddan (Sep 26, 2012)

I think MS Sasuke and Bee should all be demoted down to the S-. MS Sasuke and SM Naruto are roughly equal, but they lack the experience and battle of intelligence of Itachi and Minato. Itachi still holds jutsu like Izanagi over Sasuke. We saw when the two met up, Itachi was the tactician of the fight. The same goes with Minato and Naruto. Minato was able to work out Tobi's weakness much quicker than Naruto.

At the same time I would promote Jiraiya, SM Naruto, Orochimaru and Onoki to the A+. Onoki seemed to be a step above the other kages on the A tier. Overall would say Tsunade was his equal, with her medical jutso, but in combat he is ahead. His jinton is unblockable for many ninjas and he has flight etc. Orochimaru has Edo Tensei, insane regeneration, blocked a Biju ball and had some Sage chakra. Jiraiya is Orochimaru's equal and as an imperfect Sage only slightly below Naruto.
*
S-*
MS Sasuke
Bee
*
A+*
Jiraiya
Onoki
Orochimaru
SM Naruto


----------



## Mercurial (Sep 26, 2012)

*Characters to move down to the S- tier:*
Killer Bee
Mangekyō Sasuke (Danzō fight)

*Characters to move up to the A+ tier:*
Jiraiya 
Orochimaru
Onōki
SM Naruto


----------



## Mercurial (Oct 1, 2012)

did the thread got lost?


----------



## shintebukuro (Oct 1, 2012)

I'm going to get real for a second:

I suggested the structure for the tier list in the other thread, and everyone voted for Strat's. Now you all want "+" and "-" added...what do you have to say for yourselves? You wasted everyone's fucking time by mindlessly voting for a structure that didn't work.

The only way this mess is going to get fixed is by trashing this thread, and making another using *my* structure. Keyword: My. No other structure will work; I can guarantee you that.

Or do you guys want to vote on something else that won't work, and then be back in this exact place again when it fails, with me telling you to use mine again? Let's cut out this middle man and get right to what works.


----------



## Sniffers (Oct 1, 2012)

The intention was always to add the + and - tiers. We just didn't want to risk adding them too soon. So when it became obvious that they needed to be added, we added them. There is nothing "_mindless_" about that.

That said, this list is not working out, not because the list is inherently wrong, but because people will always find something in there that disagrees with their views and then just abort. Too few people are interested anymore, and to be honest I think it's probably for the best.


----------



## Saunion (Oct 1, 2012)

GaaraFromTheHood said:


> Another way to put this is that I can't see SM Naruto beating Raikage A, considering Lit Up Raikage went toe to toe with BM Mode Naruto. So there.



That never happend. Raikage never went "toe to toe" with BM Naruto. He bothered for a short while a KCM Naruto who never intended to fight him.


----------



## Seiji (Oct 2, 2012)

So... what now?


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Oct 2, 2012)

i like how Orochimaru is still one tier away from Itachi.. this forum will never learn


----------



## Black☆Star (Oct 2, 2012)

That is Edo Itachi btw


----------



## eyeknockout (Oct 2, 2012)

Asuma is B since he cannot hold even a single unlit candle to anyone in the A, but he would crush those in C since he is an experience jounin who fought hidan and kakuzu.

Ōnoki is A, since he is way above all of those ninja in B but he would get destroyed by ninjas like the King, the flash, the killer bee, the 3rd rikudo. he has shown himself to be the most capable kage alive by having a strong will of fire and vast knowledge.


Sage Naruto (Pain Fight) is A, it's pretty clear sage naruto during pain fight could not do all the things he did in his own mind against the kyuubi. naruto had a lot of backup when fighting pain and full knowledge yet pain pretty much still almost won. he would still get beat comfortably by the king's genjutsu, the flashes final flash, killer bee was just more skilled in every way during that time too. edo nagato...well you already saw how that turned out even in his stronger form.


----------



## tsunadefan (Oct 29, 2012)

Who are we doing now?


----------



## Vice (Jan 8, 2013)

Um... if anyone is still interested in doing this, I can do all the work and make things as simple as possible. All we'd need is to make a definitive list of characters that everyone must rank, then simply rank them. I can take care of the rest.

Just saying...


----------



## Godaime Kazekage (Jan 8, 2013)

I'd be down for that. And by simple I hope you mean that each character (excluding Edo Madara) gets one slot and none of that SM Naruto, KCM Naruto, BM Naruto crap happens.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Jan 8, 2013)

I'm down for the tier list


----------



## Lawrence777 (Jan 8, 2013)

Anyone ever think it maybe a good ideal to determine placement via substantiated debates or essays on why a ninja should or shouldn't be somewhere? or would that take to much work?


----------



## Prince Vegeta (Jan 8, 2013)

I disagree with

S+
Rinnegan Obito (with Pain)
Bijū Mode Naruto
Edo Madara 

It should be

Edo Madara

Rinnegan Obito with (Pain)

Biju Mode Naruto


----------



## Godaime Kazekage (Jan 8, 2013)

Prince Vegeta said:


> I disagree with
> 
> S+
> Rinnegan Obito (with Pain)
> ...


I fixed that for you.


----------



## eyeknockout (Jan 8, 2013)

Prince Vegeta said:


> I disagree with
> 
> S+
> Rinnegan Obito (with Pain)
> ...



inside each tier, the characters are ordered by how many letters their name has, not by who's stronger


----------



## Vice (Jan 8, 2013)

Here is a list of applicable characters worth ranking. You may provide explanation for why you ranked the characters as you have them if you want to, but not required. Also, simply PM me your list as to avoid unnecessary conflict between other posters over their rankings. I will take care of the rest.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Rikudo Sennin
Juubi
Kabuto
Tobi (Rinnegan)
Naruto(Current)
Madara (Edo)
Sasuke (EMS)
Nagato
Tob's Rikudo
Madara (EMS)
Hashirama
Minato
Hiruzen (Prime)
Tobi (Pre Rinnegan)
Killer Bee
Naruto (Pre-BM)
Pain Rikudo
Itachi
White Fang
Hanzo (Prime)
Nidaime Mizukage
Sandaime Raikage
Kakashi
Tobirama
Uchiha Shisui
Mū
Yondaime Raikage
Orochimaru
Jiraiya
Onoki
Naruto (Pre-KCM)
Danzo
Sasuke (MS)
Gai
Kinkaku
Ginkaku
Kakuzu
Hebi Sasuke
Deidara
Yondaime Kazekage
Sandaime Kazekage
Mei Terumei
Sasori
Tsunade
Kisame
Gaara
Hiruzen (old)
Konan
Kitsuchi
Hidan
Chiyo
Darui
Naruto (Pre SM)
Mifune
Hanzo (Rusty)
Kankuro
Chouji
Dan
Yamato
Asuma
Zabuza
Nara Shikaku
Amakichi Chouza
Chojuro
AO
Akatsuchi
Kurenai
Kurotsuchi
Juugo
Shikamaru
Fu
Torune
Suigetsu
Sai
Temari
Hyuuga Hiashi
Hyuuga Hizashi
Hyuuga Neji
Zetsu
Kimimaro
Kiba
Samui
Mitarashi Anko
Aburame Shino
C
Rock Lee
Shizune
Sakura
Baki
Inoichi
Atsui
Shin
Karui
Omoi
Gekko Hayate
Aoba
Shiranui Genma
Tayuya
Hyuuga Hinata
Kidomaru
Haku
Sakon-Ukon
Jirobo
Karin
Tenten
Ino
Uchiha Obito (Gaiden)
Umino Iruka
Mizuki
Zaku Abumi
Yoroi Akadō
Maki
Dosu
Rin
Konohamaru
Demon Brothers
Kin Tsuchi
Misumi Tsurugi
Oobro Brothers


----------



## Vice (Jan 14, 2013)

Vice said:


> Here is a list of applicable characters worth ranking. You may provide explanation for why you ranked the characters as you have them if you want to, but not required. Also, simply PM me your list as to avoid unnecessary conflict between other posters over their rankings. I will take care of the rest.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Just letting everyone know I've only gotten one tier list sent to me. If you don't want to do this that's cool, but I'm _really_ interested in keeping this going.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jan 14, 2013)

Its because the people want conflict


----------



## Dragon Sage Ash (Jan 14, 2013)

IMO...

Top tier is... Based on Feats and abilities... No Hype or any other BS...

Super Kage level:
1). Rikudou Sennin...
2). Dragon sage/edo tensai master Kabuto
3). Edo Madara...
High Level Kage: A...
1). Minato...
2). Obito/itachi/living madara...
3). Hashirama/Nagato "Pain"
Mid Level Kage: B...
1). Naruto/Sasuke/Oonoki tsuchikage
2). Jman/Killer Bee/4th Raikage/Gaara/Orochimaru/Kakashi/Muu/Second Mizukage/Danzou/Kisame
3). Hiruzen sarutobi/Tsunade/Mite Gai/
Low Level Kage: C...
1). Deidara/Kakuzu/Sasori/3rd raikage/5th Mizukage Mei
2). Kimimarro
3). tobirama (I am being very very Generous since the Guy literally only has some water feats)

D is pretty much Jounin in my opinion and I do not have the patience to consider that fodder list...

And I probably forgot some people, but this is basically the line up IMO...


----------



## Hero (Jan 14, 2013)

I want to discuss Tsunade if she hasn't been done. Along with the Kages


----------



## Godaime Kazekage (Jan 14, 2013)

Vice said:


> Just letting everyone know I've only gotten one tier list sent to me. If you don't want to do this that's cool, but I'm _really_ interested in keeping this going.



I won't be sending in one because I don't like having multiples of the same character on a tier list. Edo Madara is an exception. Naruto, Sasuke, Tobi, etc. should all be ranked by their current form. If they get a power up, then update their rank if it makes a difference. I don't like dealing with SM Naruto vs BM Naruto vs KCM Naruto vs Base Naruto. Just Naruto as he is currently.


----------



## Okodi (Mar 1, 2013)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> I won't be sending in one because I don't like having multiples of the same character on a tier list. Edo Madara is an exception. Naruto, Sasuke, Tobi, etc. should all be ranked by their current form. If they get a power up, then update their rank if it makes a difference. I don't like dealing with SM Naruto vs BM Naruto vs KCM Naruto vs Base Naruto. Just Naruto as he is currently.



I agree with you!

*Asuma is in tier B*
since he was counted as one of the more experienced and powerful konoha Jonins. He had the ability to sharpen his blades with his wind chakra and use wind ninjutsu as well as fire jutsus. He also had the ability to use fire

*Ōnoki is in tier A*
His Jinton is an extremely powerful ability and he has the ability to fly and attack you from above. He also possesses strong defenses with his doton golem and can change the weight of things he touches. His age is also a factor but since we are looking at current feats this is where he lands.

*Sage Naruto is in tier...*
He should be listed as Naruto.


----------



## Seiji (Mar 1, 2013)

Question, how are we supposed to pursue with this thread if the organizer is inactive? Can someone else take over?


----------



## MS81 (Mar 1, 2013)

S+
Rinnegan Obito 
Bijū Mode Naruto
Edo Madara 
Edo Nagato
S
EMS Sasuke 
1st,2nd,3rd
Killer Bee
Minato
Itachi
Orochimaru with Hashirama cell
A+
Jiraiyah
Tsunade
Ai
A
Oonoki
Mei
Kakashi
Kabutomaru
B
Rest of Alliance
Jūgo

C+
Suigetsu
Kidōmaru
Tayuya
Jirōbō
Aoba
Anko


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## God Hand (Mar 1, 2013)

Thanks to the Edo's, this tier list is a lot harder to formulate.

*I believe that the Sandaime Raikage should be S+*

-Extremely fast (close to A speed if not A speed)
-Extremely tough (even while alive he was super tough, as an Edo....get the fuck out)
-Extremely strong (A & Tsunade strength level, possibly greater)

All things taken into account, Sandaime looked to be more powerful alive, then A.  Throw in the Edo state and he is beyond most characters, alive and Edo, than we have seen in this manga.

The only way Naruto could really damage him, was by figuring out exactly how the Sandaime got the scar, and then by being fast enough and strong enough (Rasengan), to redirect the Raikage's arm.

There are only a few characters in this manga that would be capable of taking out the Sandaime one on one.


----------



## Van Konzen (Mar 1, 2013)

*S++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ramen Guy*


----------



## ZOMGItachisokewl (Mar 2, 2013)

*I don't care about edo users or edo's themself, they are stupid to include and some are way too powerful and don't accurately represent their living abilities. The only edo I count is edo Madara because he is basically a main villian now. I also don't care about different stages of characters, only their most recent prime condition.*

*God*

Rikudo

*Demigod*

Hashirama
Edo Madara
Nagato
Six Paths of Pain
Naruto

*Super Kage/More than just a Kage*

Minato
Obito
Madara
Itachi
Sasuke

*Kage*

Muu
Oonoki
Third Raikage
Fourth Raikage
Second Mizukage
Third Kazekage
Hiruzen
Jiraiya
Orochimaru
Tsunade
Gaara
Bee
Sasori
Danzo
Hanzo
Hidan
Kisame
kinkaku and ginkaku
Deidara

*S Rank/High Level Jonin*

Gai
Kakashi
Shikaku
Hiashi
Ibiki
Choza
Inoichi
Mei
Ao
Kitsuchi
Dairui
Kankuro
Kakuzu
Zetsu
Konan
Fourth Kazekage
Mifune

Don't really care about anyone lower since they are basically fodder or irrelevant except for the remaining Konoha 11.

*About Minato/Obito*
These two are hard to rank since they are both basically invincible. I put Nagato and Six Paths of Pain as demigods because they can destroy villages and reshape the map. But when you think about it Minato could probably defeat Six Paths of Pain. No amount of destruction can defeat these two so they are kind of "Special Cases".

*About Naruto*
Naruto is a demigod and not too far from Hashiramas level. Kurama is also the strongest chakra monster after the Juubi. Before people think "but Naruto is only 50% Kyuubi and Hashirama and Madara can tame 100% easy". It's more like Naruto x Yang Chakra power from Kurama. Naruto can do things that a free 100% Kurama can't such as Chakra Transfer, Kage Bunshin to get attacks from different angles, fastest Ninja in the manga and faster than any other "Demigod", can turn wood dragon into a forest from Yang release, can empower 30, 000 ninja x 3 and fly them like a bird etc.

*About Guy*
Just because Guy's best jutsu is the perfect counter to Kisame's best jutsu doesn't mean Guy is on the same level as everybody else in Kisame's tier. Not to mention if hirudora fails to defeat his enemy his body goes completely numb and he is out of commission.


----------



## Jad (Mar 2, 2013)

ZOMGItachisokewl, your Tier list is just..... I'm not going to make a joke, I'm not going to compare it to shit, I'm not going to even neg you. Your Tier list is not right. Mifune above Gai and Kakashi? Why is Deidara so low? Ok can I ask you a question, are you trolling? Be honest.


----------



## ZOMGItachisokewl (Mar 2, 2013)

I assumed that since Mifune was around Hanzo's level I could put him in that Tier but now that you mention he actually got owned by Hanzo, thanks for that.

Edit: I completely forgot about C4


----------



## Seon (Mar 2, 2013)

Everyone's going by Letter tiers so.. also, I'm not including Naruto or Sasuke, since they haven't capped out yet. Also, no SOTSP. He isn't even in the story so much guys. Also, until "Rinnegan ultimate Obito w/edo" does anything at all, he's still kakashi tier to me.

S+ Tier

1. Hashirama Senju
2. Madara Uchiha

S Tier

1. Minato Namikaze
2. Itachi Uchiha
3. Nagato Uzumaki

S- Tier

1. Orochimaru
2. Jiraiya
3. Hiruzen Sarutobi
4. Killer Bee

A Tier

1. Obito/Tobi
2. Kakashi Hatake
3. Mu
4. Third Raikage
5. Second Mizukage
6. Ohnoki
7. Ei Raikage
8. Kabuto Yakushi
9. Gai Maito
10. Kisame Hoshigaki
11. Tsunade
12. Mei Terumi
13. Gaara
14. Hanzo the Salamander
15. Danzo Himura

B Tier

1. Fourth Kazekage
2. Konan
3. Sasori
4. Kakuzu
5. Deidara
6. Hidan
7. Darui
8. Suigetsu Houzuki


blah blah blah for the rest.


----------



## Rosi (Mar 2, 2013)

Seon said:


> Everyone's going by Letter tiers so.. also, I'm not including Naruto or Sasuke, since they haven't capped out yet. Also, no SOTSP. He isn't even in the story so much guys. Also, until "Rinnegan ultimate Obito w/edo" does anything at all, he's still kakashi tier to me.
> 
> S+ Tier
> 
> ...



WOW  I have no words. Especially with Killer Bee being ahead of him, when just a few months ago Obito was fighting successfully against him and 3 MORE people of similar strength


----------



## Mercurial (Mar 2, 2013)

Feats > Hype 
No Prep.

Rikudou 
Younger Brother
Elder Brother

God Tier

Madara Edo Tensei
Naruto Uzumaki (EoS)
Sasuke Uchiha (Eos) 
Hashirama Senju
Madara Uchiha (EMS)

Top Tier 

Naruto Uzumaki (4? Ninja War,BM)
Sasuke Uchiha (4? Ninja War,by hype)
Nagato
Six Paths of Pain
Obito Uchiha/Tobi (4? Ninja War)
Naruto Uzumaki (4? Ninja War,KCM)
Minato Namikaze
Itachi Uchiha (Healthy)
Kakashi Hatake (4? Ninja War)
Obito Uchiha/Tobi (before Rin'negan)
Kabuto Yakushi (Orochimaru + Ryuuchidou SM)
Itachi Uchiha (Sick)
Tobirama Senju
Izuna Uchiha
Gai Maito (4? Ninja War)
Sasuke Uchiha (4? Ninja War,by feats)
Killer Bee

S-rank Mid-High Tier 

3? Raiakge
Mu
2? Mizukage
Kakashi Hatake (Shippuuden 1st half)
Gai Maito (Shippuuden 1 st half)
Naruto Uzumaki (5 Kage Meeting)
Sasuke Uchiha (5 Kage Meeting)
Sakumo Hatake
Onoki
Orochimaru
Jiraiya
Hanzou (hype)
Kisame Hoshigaki
Ei
Gaara (4? Ninja War)
Danzo Shimura (Koto Amatsukami-less)
Kakuzu
Shisui Uchiha
Deidara
Sasori
Yagura
3? Kazekage
Sasuke Uchiha (Hebi)
Kakashi Hatake (pt 1)
Gai Maito (pt 1)
Naruto Uzumaki (Fuuton training)
Zetsu
Hidan
Mangetsu Hozuki
Gaara (Shippuuden beginning)
Yugito Nii
Roshi
Mei Terumi
Hiruzen Sarutobi (Old)
4? Kazekage
Han
Utakata
Fu
Konan
Hiashi Hyuga
Darui
Tsunade Senju
Kinkaku
Ginkaku
Kitsuchi
Naruto Uzumaki (Shippuuden beginning)

S-rank Mid-Low Tier 

Mifune
Dan Kato
Kimimaro Kaguya
Chiyo
Zabuza Momochi
Neji Hyuga (Shippuuden)
Rock Lee (Shippuuden)
Fugaku Uchiha
Yamato
Sai
Juugo
Suigetsu
Asuma Sarutobi
Kabuto Yakushi (Orochimaru less)

Elite Jonin Tier

Gari
Pakura
Suikazan Fuguki
other Kiri swordsman
Hizashi Hyuga
Torune Aburame
Fu Yamanaka
Shikaku Nara
Shibi Aburame
Choza Akimichi
Inoichi Yamanaka
Shikamaru Nara (Shippuuden)
Chojuro
Ao
Genma Shiranui
Aoba Yamashiro
Raido Namiashi
Baki
Dodai
Haku Yuki
ANBU Captain
Shino Aburame (Shippuuden)
Chouji Akimichi (Shippuuden)
C
Chiriku
Gen'yumaru
Kurotsuchi
Akatsuchi
Toroi
Kakashi Hatake (Gaiden)
Gaara (pt 1)
Sasuke Uchiha (end pt 1)
Naruto Uzumaki (end pt 1)

ETC ETC


----------



## Olympian (Mar 2, 2013)

ZOMGItachisokewl said:


> *Don't really care about anyone lower since they are basically fodder or irrelevant except for the remaining Konoha 11.*


*

I don`t see Asuma on your list but I see Ibiki and Zetsu.*


----------



## Turrin (Mar 2, 2013)

*S+*
Rikudo

*S*
1. Edo Madara w/ Juubi
2. Rinnegan Obito w/ Juubi

*S-*
1. Senju Hashirama
2. VOTE Madara
3. Mito Uzamaki (Maybe)

*A+*
1. Rinnegan Obito  
2. Naruto (BM, KCM, SM)


*A*
1. Yakushi Kabuto 
2. Orochimaru (Current)
3. Namikaze Minato
4. Mangekyo Sharingan Obito
5. Uzamaki Nagato 
6. Edo Uchiha Itachi
7. Uzamaki Kushina
8. Shimura Danzo
9. Sasuke (EMS)


*B+*
1. Hanzo (Prime)
2. White Fang (Prime)
3. Killer B
4. Onoki (Prime)
5. Ginkaku & Kinkaku
6. Naruto (SM)
7. Sasuke (MS)
8. Itachi (Sick)
9. Jiraiya
10. Orochimaru (Part I)
11. Tsunade (for support)
12. Sandaime Raikage
13. Mu
14. Nindaime Mizukage
15. Yondaime Mizukage
16. Yondaime Raikage
17. Kakashi
18. Gai

*B*
1. Kisame
2. Gaara
3. Kinkaku
4. Ginkaku
5. Kitsuchi 
6. Sasori
7. Naruto (Base) 
8. Sasuke (Hebi)
9. Sandaime Kazekage
10. Yondaime Kazekage
11. Kakuzu
12. Deidara
13. Mei Terumi
14. Hanzo (Rusty) 
15. Konan
16. Mifune
17. Darui

Etc... (all I feel like doing for now)


----------



## MIMS (Mar 2, 2013)

Mei Terumi should be S+ for her killer looks alone. 

On a serious note: Minato -S tier (many pointed out already why) and MS Sasuke -A tier. Wasn't impressed by his showing to be honest. Hope EMS Sasuke will.


----------



## Godaime Kazekage (Mar 2, 2013)

Turrin said:


> *S+*
> Rikudo
> 
> *S*
> ...


 You put Mito, an unproven character, above Minato, Itachi, and Nagato? Seriously?


----------



## hitokugutsu (Mar 2, 2013)

*Z tier*
Rinnegan Madara

*S++ tier*
BM Naruto
EMS Sasuke
VotE Madara
Hashirama
Rinnegan Tobi

*S+ tier*
Sharingan Tobi
Itachi
Minato
Nagato
Prime Hiruzen
MS Sasuke (fully mastered MS)
KCM Naruto
Killer Bee
Hebi Kabuto

*S tier*
SM Naruto
Hebi/CS2 Sasuke
Jiraya
Orochimaru
Tsunade
Prime Hanzo
Sasori
A
Onoki (willpower mode )
Gaara (Mother Style)
Nidaime Mizukage
Mu
Sandaime Raikage
Tobirama
Old Hiruzen
Danzo
Kinkaku
Ginkaku
MS Kakashi
Gai

*S- tier*
Shisui
Deidara
Kisame
Kakuzu
Konan
Paranoid Hanzo
Yondaime Kazekage
Gaara (Shukaku Style)
Mei
Chiyo
Darui
Kitsuchi
early part II Kakashi

*A+ tier*
Hidan
Zetsu
Kankuro (current)
Temari (current)
Asuma
Shikaku
Inoichi
Chouza
Akatsuchi
Kurotsuchi
Yamato
7 SotM
Haku
Gari
Pakura
Suigetsu
Chojiro
Ao
Juugo
Dan 
Hiashi/Hizashi


----------



## Santoryu (Mar 2, 2013)

S+
Rikudo

S
Hashirama
Madara
Obito
Naruto

S-
Nagato (noticeably the strongest in this tier)
Minato
Kakashi/Itachi

A+
Gai
Onoki/Sandaime Raikage


A
Kisame
Tsunade


I'm not going to bother listing every character at this moment, because I'm lazy.


----------



## MIMS (Mar 2, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> S+
> Rikudo
> 
> S
> ...



Kakashi should be in A+.


----------



## Santoryu (Mar 2, 2013)

MIMS said:


> Kakashi should be in A+.



Should he really though? We're talking about a fighter who can contend with multiple version-two Jinjuriki in base. He has mastered his Mangekyo-Sharingan to such an extent that he is capable of warping himself in an exhausted state; he can execute Kamui so fast that top-tiers like Obito were completely oblivious to the fact that a human-sized body was warped right in front him. Then there is the fact that Kishimoto consistently potrays him as one of the greatest tacticians in the entire series.

I'd say both Kakashi and Itachi are two of the weaker fighters in the S- tier, while Nagato is noticeably the strongest, as mentioned in my previous post.


----------



## Seiji (Mar 2, 2013)

Lol this thread is messed up.  Someone else should take over. Strategos isn't active anymore.


----------



## Santoryu (Mar 2, 2013)

> Someone else should take over. Strategos isn't active anymore.



Since when were you under the impression, I hadn't already taken over?


----------



## MIMS (Mar 2, 2013)

It just seems very awkward to have him a tier above Sandaime Raikage and Onoki. I've got no special preferences for Itachi but I still believe he'd be stronger than the three of them (Kakashi, Onoki or Raikage).

Kakashi is very gifted, intelligent, quite fast, pretty amazing MS technique but I think Itachi's base skills would still surpass Kakashi's even if the difference is minimal. Also we have to take into account Itachi does have Susano'o with the two legendary weapons. Don't get me wrong, in no means I believe those weapons make him invincible but they definitely give him quite an edge over 95% of narutoverse. Not to forget Izanami as well. His Genjutsu skills by far outshines any other Shinobi.


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## Reddan (Mar 2, 2013)

Turrin said:


> *S+*
> Rikudo
> 
> *S*
> ...



Good tier list, and the only excepting really is Mito. Really nothing at all indicates she was close to that strength. Cannot really argue with anything else.


----------



## Santoryu (Mar 2, 2013)

MIMS said:


> It just seems very awkward to have him a tier above Sandaime Raikage and Onoki.



Perhaps, but we could also apply the same logic to Itachi. I suppose "A++" would be more fitting for both, but that isn't available.



> I've got no special preferences for Itachi but I still believe he'd be stronger than the three of them (Kakashi, Onoki or Raikage).


Fair enough.



> Kakashi is very gifted, intelligent, quite fast, pretty amazing MS technique but I think Itachi's base skills would still surpass Kakashi's even if the difference is minimal.


Their base skills are comparable, but Itachi's Sharingan-genjutsu is far more potent; conversly, Kakashi's base ninjutsu-arsenal would adequately counter Itachi's.

Here is a post I recently made regarding the matchup in general







> Also we have to take into account Itachi does have Susano'o with the two legendary weapons. Don't get me wrong, in no means I believe those weapons make him invincible but they definitely give him quite an edge over 95% of narutoverse. Not to forget Izanami as well. His Genjutsu skills by far outshines any other Shinobi.


You could apply this logic in a Itachi vs Obito debate; but we know Obito is the superior combatant, this is quite evident seeing as how he handled Naruto+three high tiers and would've won had it not been due to Kakashi.

Obito only has one Mangekyo-Sharingan technique (Kamui) but this doesn't stop him from trolling most of the  Narutoverse.


----------



## MIMS (Mar 2, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> Perhaps, but we could also apply the same logic to Itachi. I suppose "A++" would be more fitting for both, but that isn't available.
> 
> 
> Fair enough.
> ...



Ultimately the best deal I'd give you is Kakashi being A++, Onoki and Sandaime Raikage A+ and Itachi S-.


----------



## Seiji (Mar 2, 2013)

MIMS said:


> It just seems very awkward to have him a tier above Sandaime Raikage and Onoki. I've got no special preferences for Itachi but I still believe he'd be stronger than the three of them (Kakashi, Onoki or Raikage).
> 
> Kakashi is very gifted, intelligent, quite fast, pretty amazing MS technique but I think Itachi's base skills would still surpass Kakashi's even if the difference is minimal. Also we have to take into account Itachi does have Susano'o with the two legendary weapons. Don't get me wrong, in no means I believe those weapons make him invincible but they definitely give him quite an edge over 95% of narutoverse. Not to forget Izanami as well. His Genjutsu skills by far outshines any other Shinobi.



Just to add to this, Itachi has been portrayed as one of the most flawless fighter right beside Minato. He had defeated a legendary Sannin twice; Sealed an ultra haxed Rinnegan user; Defeated Kabuto; Outshined an EMS Sauce 'n ended Edo Tensei. One may argue that he had some help in achieving those feats above but that just shows how much regard Kishi puts on Itachi's character that even though he's no longer present, he still keeps receiving hype.

Whereas Kakashi's portrayal isn't even coming close to that. Kakashi's my most favorite character. But I'm not going to put him on the same tier as Itachi 'n Minato yet.


----------



## Dominus (Mar 2, 2013)

Turrin said:


> *S+*
> Rikudo
> 
> *S*
> ...



How did you come to that conclusion ?


----------



## ueharakk (Mar 2, 2013)

0. 
- RS

1. 
- Datara (V2 Juubi + Madara + Obito)

2.
- Hashirama Senju
- EMS Madara + Kurama

3.
- Cu Edo Madara
- BM Naruto
- FP Tobi

4.
- FP KCM Naruto
- Prime Nagato (non-edo, mobile, no paths, no GM)
- Minato
- Cu EMS Sasuke
- Edo Itachi/FP SM Naruto/SM Kabuto 
- Killer Bee
- Pain

5. 
- Living Itachi (healthy)
- SM Jiraiya
- MS Sasuke
- Sandaime Raikage/Yagura
- FP Danzou
- Oonoki/Kakashi
- Muu/Trollkage
- Ei
- Kisame/Gai

6.
- Gaara
- Yondaime Kazekage
- Sasori
- Deidara
- Base Naruto/Base Sasuke
- Tsunade
- Kakuzu
- Black Zetsu
- Mifune
- Rusty Hanzou

7. 
- Yuugito Nii
- Mei
- Kimimaru
- Konan
- Hidan

Not listed due to limited feats:
- Cu Orochimaru
- Cu Tobirama
- Cu Hiruzen

*Cu = Current = character hasn't shown true potential as of current manga
* FP = Full Power = assumed maximum power/arsenal for said character
*this is a strait up 1 vs 1 battle tier list, it does not take into account support abilities from other characters.  For example, tsunade would be much higher on the list if it included support for teamates.


----------



## Santoryu (Mar 2, 2013)

MIMS said:


> Ultimately the best deal I'd give you is Kakashi being A++, Onoki and Sandaime Raikage A+ and Itachi S-.



Sounds good 



Siriυs said:


> Just to add to this, Itachi has been portrayed as one of the most flawless fighter right beside Minato. He had defeated a legendary Sannin twice; Sealed an ultra haxed Rinnegan user; Defeated Kabuto; Outshined an EMS Sauce 'n ended Edo Tensei. One may argue that he had some help in achieving those feats above but that just shows how much regard Kishi puts on Itachi's character that even though he's no longer present, he still keeps receiving hype.
> 
> Whereas Kakashi's portrayal isn't even coming close to that. Kakashi's my most favorite character. But I'm not going to put him on the same tier as Itachi 'n Minato yet.




You're looking at things in a simplistic fashion. What you need to keep in mind is that Itachi was potrayed as one of the most powerful-shinobi when he was first introduced; conversly, Kakashi was potrayed to be comparable to a part 1 Kabuto. Kakashi has been significantly improving throughout the series, whereas Itachi got weaker due to his poor-health. While it's true he outshined EMS Sasuke, you must keep in mind that the former was not only told to not kill Kabuto, but we didn't get to see the full extent of his powers. Itachi also had a edo-tensei body.

Kakashi has never defeated a Sannin in a one vs one battle, unlike Itachi-but this is not indicative of Kakashi's strenght. You could argue Kishimoto has let Itachi shine more, but what's your point? Kishimoto has also let Itachi shine more than Nagato, but the general consensus is that the latter is superior.


This war is finally allowing us readers to see the true extent of Kakashi's powers and increase in overall power; there is a reason Kishimoto decided to devote an entire year to the character. Kishimoto may never allow Kakashi to defeat a kage-level ninja in a one vs one battle, but any reasonable reader would know that Kakashi is capable of achieving such a feat.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 2, 2013)

senjuclanownedme said:


> Good tier list, and the only excepting really is Mito. Really nothing at all indicates she was close to that strength. Cannot really argue with anything else.


Had Fuuinjutsu capable of sealing 100% Kurama, which means better Fuuinjutsu than Minato.
Had exceptional chakra even among the Uzamaki Clan
Was Kyuubi Jinchuuriki
Had Tsunade Yin-Seal which is insanely hax'd considering her chakra supply
Has Naruto's KCM sensing.

I agree it's a maybe, but she seems to have the necessary hax to potentially be that strong.



Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> How did you come to that conclusion ?


See above for Mito as for Kushina, Naruto states she's stronger than him even after KCM. He only surpasses her after taming Kurama and mastering chakra transfer. She taught Minato everything he knew about Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu and her performance against Kurama even when half dead was excessively impressive.


----------



## Dominus (Mar 2, 2013)

Turrin said:


> See above for Mito as for Kushina, Naruto states she's stronger than him even after KCM. He only surpasses her after taming Kurama and mastering chakra transfer. She taught Minato everything he knew about Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu and her performance against Kurama even when half dead was excessively impressive.



That is just hype, she has no feats.


----------



## Reddan (Mar 2, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Had Fuuinjutsu capable of sealing 100% Kurama, which means better Fuuinjutsu than Minato.
> Had exceptional chakra even among the Uzamaki Clan
> Was Kyuubi Jinchuuriki
> Had Tsunade Yin-Seal which is insanely hax'd considering her chakra supply
> ...


I agree with Kushina's placing. The story seems to indicate that she and Minato were close enough to equals.

As for Mito, I disagree with you on point one.

1. Minato says that a Non-Jinchuriki cant seal all of the Kyubi. So he does the best he can do as a non Jinchuriki. So Mito is not necessarily better than him. Off topic, but I wonder, who sealed the Kyubi into Kushina.

You could be right about Mito, she certainly has potential, but it is far too soon to place her on such a high tier. If she was the equal to Hashirama and Madara, the latter would have mentioned it, in my opinion. I personally think she should just be left off any tier list until we get a better reading of her power.


----------



## Godaime Kazekage (Mar 2, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Overall, I like this list. However, I have a few changes.

S+
Rikudo

S
Hashirama
Madara


S-
Minato
Itachi
Obito
Nagato
Naruto

A+
Orochimaru
Sasuke (Until he shows something)
Kakashi
Jiraiya
Gai
Gaara



A
Sandaime Raikage
Yondaime Raikage
Onoki
Kisame
Tsunade
Mei

Obito and Naruto are not in the same tier of strength as Madara and Hashirama. However, I do have a problem placing Obito. I think that he is uniquely equipped to handle Nagato, but I don't think that he'd fair well against Itachi or Minato.

Gaara could possibly go to top of A tier. I couldn't really decide.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 2, 2013)

senjuclanownedme said:


> 1. Minato says that a Non-Jinchuriki cant seal all of the Kyubi. So he does the best he can do as a non Jinchuriki.


Minato says only a non-Jinchuuriki can use Shiki Fuujin, not that only a Jinchuuriki can seal Kyuubi. Mito is stated to have sealed the full Kyuubi, so we know a non-Jinchuuriki can do it.

Mito was capable of sealing the Full beast, while Minato said it was impossible for him, we don't need anymore evidence than that to conclude that Mito was better at Fuuinjutsu than Minato.



> You could be right about Mito, she certainly has potential, but it is far too soon to place her on such a high tier. If she was the equal to Hashirama and Madara, the latter would have mentioned it, in my opinion.


I didn't place her as equal. I placed her a tier bellow them. But overall I don't think it not being stated yet means anything. Heck I wouldn't be surprised if Mito was on the same level as Hashi & Madara, since Kushina ended up being on the same general level as her husband and Mito is packing some serious hax.



> I personally think she should just be left off any tier list until we get a better reading of her power.


It's just a prediction on my part that she'll end up being around that level or higher, for the sake of fun. That's why I said "maybe". Actually the more that I think about it though, the higher I think she'll end up being in the end. I might move her up actually.

I mean Mito was already at the level where she could seal 100% Kurama  back during the VOTE and before she even became Kyuubi Jinchuuriki. Unlike Hashirama Mito than went on to live a very long life where she could have learned even more techniques and would have become stronger after becoming the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki. Not to mention she had many years to store massive amounts of chakra in her Yin Seal. Mito's potential is massive.


----------



## Ben B (Mar 2, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> 0.
> - RS
> 
> 1.
> ...



This would be my list as well except that Id put Edo Madara and perhaps BM Naruto in the 2nd tier. Madaras edo form basically makes up for the most significant boost the kyuubi offered him before (chakra) and his meteor nuke tops anything the 9 tails can do in terms of destructive power.


----------



## Reddan (Mar 2, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Minato says only a non-Jinchuuriki can use Shiki Fuujin, not that only a Jinchuuriki can seal Kyuubi. Mito is stated to have sealed the full Kyuubi, so we know a non-Jinchuuriki can do it.
> 
> Mito was capable of sealing the Full beast, while Minato said it was impossible for him, we don't need anymore evidence than that to conclude that Mito was better at Fuuinjutsu than Minato.


That's not what Minato said.
*
And then I'll take the nine tails with me....with the sealing jutsu that I can do, not being a Jinchuriki...the Shikifujin death reaper seal.*

He said without sealing the Nine tails in yourself, the best you could do is seal half. Prior to that Kushina had just offered to seal the Nine Tails back inside of her. Now considering Kushina had just given birth, had the nine tails ripped out of her, had placed a barrier strong enough to stop Hiruzen getting in and then chained the Nine Tails, this feat seems a LOT more impressive than the one that Mito is supposed to have done.


> I didn't place her as equal. I placed her a tier bellow them. But overall I don't think it not being stated yet means anything. Heck I wouldn't be surprised if Mito was on the same level as Hashi & Madara, since Kushina ended up being on the same general level as her husband and Mito is packing some serious hax.


Yes I was being an idiot, but I would be surprised if Mito was on that level.


> It's just a prediction on my part that she'll end up being around that level or higher, for the sake of fun. That's why I said "maybe". Actually the more that I think about it though, the higher I think she'll end up being in the end. I might move her up actually.
> 
> I mean Mito was already at the level where she could seal 100% Kurama  back during the VOTE and before she even became Kyuubi Jinchuuriki. Unlike Hashirama Mito than went on to live a very long life where she could have learned even more techniques and would have become stronger after becoming the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki. Not to mention she had many years to store massive amounts of chakra in her Yin Seal. Mito's potential is massive.


Fair enough, but I don't see what making Mito that powerful adds to the story. We will see, I expect the tiers may move about a bit when we see more of the kages. Personally I am starting to think Minato is even stronger than people think. He only lacks stamina and a powerful finishing move. From what we have seen of Madara and Hashirama he would still have no problem facing them, until his chakra ran out.


----------



## Seon (Mar 2, 2013)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> Overall, I like this list. However, I have a few changes.
> 
> S+
> Rikudo
> ...





I like this list and agree with most of it. Nagato and Itachi have always been on the same level to me. Tier wise atleast


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Mar 2, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Mito was capable of sealing the Full beast, while Minato said it was impossible for him, we don't need anymore evidence than that to conclude that Mito was better at Fuuinjutsu than Minato.


Is that a testament to her outright power or to the special quality of her chakra?


----------



## Fragile (Mar 2, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> Sounds good
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just a few little points. If you think that Masashi Kishimoto is portraying Kakashi in the same roof with that of Itachi, then you are not understanding what Author portrayal really means. I share a similar view with Sirius in this one. Surely, featwise Kakashi is more than capable of trolling anyone with just his haxed jutsu. Not only Itachi but even the likes of Madara or Naruto since they are yet to show any reliable counters to it. But if we are to imagine a battle going to take place in the manga that involves Kakashi and these characters, how confident are you that Kakashi can defeat them? Itachi specifically? Featwise, Kamui is definitely one of the most dangerous techniques capable of killing 99 percent of the Narutoverse, so as they say. However, that isn't really the case now is it? It has only ever been shown to use for support and supplementary purposes. Why? Because that's the limit as how Kishimoto portrays Kamui in Kakashi's possession. That's how Kishimoto portrays Kakashi. And until I see a major power up from him in this arc, that's how I'm seeing it. 

Secondly, Kakashi not beating anyone of relevance without extensive help is already a testament of this. Kakashi earlier in part 1 was slapped around by Itachi and that fight alone indicates the massive level difference between these two characters. The same goes in the beginning of part 2, where nothing has really changed. Despite outsmarting him in that occasion, he still ultimately needed Naruto's aid to defeat a thirty percent shoten Itachi. The same thing happens again in the Immortal arcs that if it weren't for Naruto and Yamato's intervention, they would've been killed. Then the trend continues around Pain where his most powerful jutsu, instead of finally seeing it being used as tool to show how formidable he is with it, was tossed around for defensive measures.

If there is one thing that I agree with your post, that's when you said that Kakashi has improved from his part 1 self and his Kamui usage considerably improved as well. But that no where affects Kakashi portrayal in relative to Itachi. It's true that the latter, may have been weakened due to an ailment, yet even after his death, he was invincible. He died defeated by no one. He died without ever been humiliated by anyone on top of wielding three powerful Mangekyo techniques and 2 legendary weapons (IIRC). And wait it doesn't stop there, he was resurrected on the purpose of being involved in a major battle predestined to almost single handedly defeat a Sage user and ending a technique that has been pestering the whole Shinobi alliance. You shouldn't look at that in literal and say: "It's because Itachi has an edo body and so on.." The author clearly meant to bring Itachi back and even granting him a technique for just for that that purpose. I am not sure though that outperforming his brother was also intentional, but that goes to show how highly Kishimoto think of Itachi's character.

How does Kakashi's portrayal compares to that? Surely in the current arc, he had contributed a lot, defeating Edo Swordsmen, dealing with multiple Jinchurikis, took part in saving Naruto and was further involved in a bigger plot where one of the main antagonists in the story was revealed to be his former best friend. But in terms of power level, do you think Kakashi's portrayal is that high enough to say that he's equally portrayed in the same level with Itachi? Of course, his Kamui usage was very impressive. Yet again, it was just used for supplementary purposes allowing the MAIN character to capitalize on him. We have already seen Kakashi's limitations the moment he received the Kyubi chakra and that's the limit of Kakashi's strength. Anything more that he's going to show can't help but be connected with the chakra empowering it. That was already the author's moment to portray what Kakashi is truly capable of, after all. We've seen it and unfortunately, it still pales in comparison with what Itachi has achieved or has been portrayed to be, in my honest opinion.

That is of course, unless Kakashi receives a major power up that is not related to Kyubi chakra. Lastly, what you said about "Itachi has shined more than Nagato" cannot be equated to "Itachi was portrayed as the superior character than Nagato" simply because having more opportunity to shine is not equivalent to having a superior portrayal. Don't look at it in a quantitative manner, rather in a *qualitative* way. I'd willingly discuss it later if you're interested.

And I am not even sure why I'm advocating for Itachi all of a sudden since I'm not even a fan of his. But I just wanted to share my opinion regarding portrayals in this manga.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 2, 2013)

senjuclanownedme said:


> That's not what Minato said.
> *
> And then I'll take the nine tails with me....with the sealing jutsu that I can do, not being a Jinchuriki...the Shikifujin death reaper seal.*
> 
> He said without sealing the Nine tails in yourself, the best you could do is seal half. .


LOL what? Look at what I said:

"Minato says only a non-Jinchuuriki can use Shiki Fuujin, not that only a Jinchuuriki can seal Kyuubi. "

Now look at what you quoted:

And then I'll take the nine tails with me....*with the sealing jutsu that I can do, not being a Jinchuriki*...the Shikifujin death reaper seal

How am I wrong?



> rior to that Kushina had just offered to seal the Nine Tails back inside of her. Now considering Kushina had just given birth, had the nine tails ripped out of her, had placed a barrier strong enough to stop Hiruzen getting in and then chained the Nine Tails, this feat seems a LOT more impressive than the one that Mito is supposed to have done.


Kushina said that she could drag the nine-tails back inside herself and than die. We don't know if this is something she could do w/o already having a seal in place and we don't know if she can do it w/o dying. It's unclear.



> Yes I was being an idiot, but I would be surprised if Mito was on that level.


Well while it's not confirmed I wouldn't be surprised. So we'll have to agree to disagree.



> Fair enough, but I don't see what making Mito that powerful adds to the story.


It adds an example of a max power Uzamaki similar to how Hashi and Madara are examples off max power Uchiha & Senju.



> We will see, I expect the tiers may move about a bit when we see more of the kages. Personally I am starting to think Minato is even stronger than people think. He only lacks stamina and a powerful finishing move. From what we have seen of Madara and Hashirama he would still have no problem facing them, until his chakra ran out.


I think it's more than chakra. Hashirama summoned a Buddha God & Madara summoned Kyuubi-Susano'o Gundam. I don't see Minato reaching that level.

Plus Naruto has already surpassed Minato, but has yet to surpass Hashirama/Madara.



Elrond Half-Elven said:


> Is that a testament to her outright power or to the special quality of her chakra?


The special quality of Uzamaki chakra is what allows the Uzamaki to use such powerful Fuuinjutsu. So it's a testament to both.


----------



## Hossaim (Mar 2, 2013)

I thought this was dead?

List anyway:
S+
1.	Rikudo Sennin
2.	Madara (Edo)
3.	Juubi
4.	Madara (Living Rinnegan)

S
5.	Tobi (Rinnegan)
6.	Kabuto 
7.	Madara (EMS)
8.	Hashirama
9.	Itachi (Edo)
10.	Tobi (MS)
11.	Naruto (BM)

S-
12.	Itachi (MS)
13.	Nagato 
14.	Minato 
15.	Sasuke (EMS)
16.	Kakashi
17.	Killer Bee
18.	Sasuke (MS)
19.	Naruto (KCM)

A+
20.	Oonoki
21.	Mu
22.	Hebi Sasuke
23.	Orochimaru
24.	Kisame
25.	Jiraiya
26.	Deidara
27.	Kakuzu
28.	Sandamine Raikage
29.	Sasori

A
30.	Danzo
31.	E
32.	Shisui 
33.	Trollkage
34.	Naruto (SM)
35.	Gaara
36.	Hiruzen (Prime)
37.	Tobirama
38.	Gai
39.	Sandamine Kazekage

A-
40.	Mei
41.	4th Kazekage
42.	Konan
43.	Zetsu
44.	Hanzo (Prime)
45.	White Fang

B+
46.	Tsunade
47.	Yamato
48.	Darui
49.	Mifune
50.	Hidan
51.	Hanzo (Old)

B
52.	Kin/Gin
53.	Naruto (FT)
54.	Zabuzza
55.	Kimmimaro
56.	Kankuro
57.	Chiyo
58.	Neji
59.	Asuma

B-
60.	Juugo
61.	Shikamaru
62.	Chouji
63.	Suigetsu
64.	Temari
65.	Chojuro

C+
66.	Hinata
67.	Rock Lee
68.	Haku
69.	Sai
70.	Nara Shikaku
71.	C
72.	Chouza

C
73.	Kidomaru
74.	AO
75.	Hiashi
76.	Kiba
77.	Shino
78.	Inoichi
79.	Fu

C-
80.	Sakon/Ukon
81.	Kistsuchi
82.	Aoba
83.	Akatsuci
84.	Torune
85.	Kurenai
86.	Genma
87.	Tayuya

D+
88.	Ino
89.	Jirobo
90.	Gaiden Obito
91.	Sakura
92.	Karin
93.	Karui
94.	Omoi

D
95.	Samui
96.	Anko
97.	Shizune
98.	Iruka
99.	Konohamaru
100.	Tenten
101.	Mizuki
102.	Rin

D-
All the fodder


----------



## Reddan (Mar 2, 2013)

Turrin said:


> LOL what? Look at what I said:
> 
> "Minato says only a non-Jinchuuriki can use Shiki Fuujin, not that only a Jinchuuriki can seal Kyuubi. "
> 
> ...


I interpret the text different. For me Minato is saying I will use the only jutsu that a non Jinchuriki could possibly use to seal the 9 tails, the Shikifujin.

So Minato is using the only jutsu outside sealing the 9 tails in yourself that could work.


> Kushina said that she could drag the nine-tails back inside herself and than die. We don't know if this is something she could do w/o already having a seal in place and we don't know if she can do it w/o dying. It's unclear.


Kushina was going to die anyway. That's why Minato said he was going to seal her chakra in Naruto. It would be pointless sealing her chakra inside Naruto if she could have survived.


> It adds an example of a max power Uzamaki similar to how Hashi and Madara are examples off max power Uchiha & Senju.


Possibly, but she has no one of note to fight or any chance to demonstrate her strength.


----------



## The Prodigy (Mar 2, 2013)

Guys, we have to all remember now... Kushina > Minato

Naruto said he wanted to be more badass than Minato and stronger than Kushina, remember


----------



## Seiji (Mar 2, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> You're looking at things in a simplistic fashion.



Or rather I'm looking at it from a reader's perspective.



> What you need to keep in mind is that Itachi was potrayed as one of the most powerful-shinobi when he was first introduced; conversly, Kakashi was potrayed to be comparable to a part 1 Kabuto. Kakashi has been significantly improving throughout the series, whereas Itachi got weaker due to his poor-health.



You're right, Kakashi has been improving throughout the series. But wait, what is your basis that Itachi got weaker? It's true that his body has been suffering due to his poor health and it's not illogical to assume that he's been physically weaker ever since. But why would we say he's constantly getting weaker from his part 1 self when we don't even know how strong he truly was at that time? Under what basis are we assuming that his Mangekyo usage in part 1 and in the middle of the time skip is as efficient and skilled and the same as compared when using it at the time when he was plagued by a disease- enough to say that he's indeed getting weaker due to a "poor health"? I mean, "Itachi getting weaker" only applies if his skills have been the same now and before and that he hasn't improved significantly from his part 1 self.



> While it's true he outshined EMS Sasuke, you must keep in mind that the former was not only told to not kill Kabuto, but we didn't get to see the full extent of his powers. Itachi also had a edo-tensei body.



And what's your point? It's not changing the fact that Itachi had still done a better job than Sauce despite the latter being more powerful. It's not changing the fact that Itachi knows what to do more than Sauce in that situation (hence he told him to not kill Kabuto). Itachi shouldn't be at fault for having an edo tensei cause the only time he took advantage of that was to save Sauce's butt anyway.



> Kakashi has never defeated a Sannin in a one vs one battle, unlike Itachi-but this is not indicative of Kakashi's strenght. You could argue Kishimoto has let Itachi shine more, but what's your point? Kishimoto has also let *Itachi shine more than Nagato*, but the general consensus is that the latter is superior.



Do you think Itachi shining more than Nagato must also mean Itachi was portrayed as the stronger character? No. That's not how portrayal means. They are two different things. A character having more awesome moments than the other doesn't necessarily mean he's stronger. Look not on how many times a character was portrayed to be strong but on the *weight* it holds. True that Kishimoto let Itachi shine more than Nagato but the latter was still portrayed as the stronger one regardless.

Why? Not only is his Dojutsu more powerful than Itachi's (lol Rinnegan >> Sharingan), he was also made the leader of the most dangerous organization in the Narutoverse; defeated a legendary Sannin; battled a Sage Mode Naruto and died because of his very own technique. That's how I'm viewing it from a reader's perspective- a "simplistic fashion" if you want to call it. Now, to question the author's perspective, why would he grant Nagato the *most powerful* dojutsu over anyone? Why make him the leader of that named organization among anything? Why give him a nick name "GOD" among his own village? Simple. Because the author clearly wanted to portray Nagato to be this strong of a character and that's the way he did it.



> This war is finally allowing us readers to see the true extent of Kakashi's powers and increase in overall power; there is a reason Kishimoto decided to devote an entire year to the character. Kishimoto may never allow Kakashi to defeat a kage-level ninja in a one vs one battle, but any reasonable reader would know that Kakashi is capable of achieving such a feat.



What is the true extent of Kakashi's power again? Sure, using Kamui 5 times for Naruto to take advantage on.  Right, Kishimoto decided to involve Kakashi in a bigger plot when Tobi was revealed to be Obito, but how does that pave any more way for Kishimoto to show how powerful Kakashi is now that the only reason why he's capable of warping Biju sized things was because of the Kyubi chakra? And god forbid that anything more impressive he's going to do is thanks to Jesus mode Naruto who's spamming his chakra and giving it away like a bitch.

Just put it this way. This manga has a recurring theme where it revolves around the younger generation surpassing the old. Two of the Main characters were Kakashi's students: Naruto and Sauce and Kakashi is a character meant to be surpassed by these characters. Just like how Naruto is supposed to surpass any of his predecessors and like how Sauce is supposed to surpass any of his predecessors. We already had seen a statement where Kakashi admitted inferiority to Post FRS Naruto. Now, ofc, since Kakashi is improving, it won't hurt to say that current Kakashi can rotflstomp that version of Naruto, so at best, Kakashi's level is comparable with that of Base Naruto where the latter has already considerably improved as well. 

I'm just going to have to quote Empathy regarding this point since he had already explained this well more than I could:



Regarding Sauce, since he and Naruto is one- upping each other ever since the start of the post time skip, it can be assumed that Hebi Sauce is comparable to Post Futon Naruto (although featwise, Sauce is seen superior) where he could also be stronger than that version of Kakashi. A Hebi Sasuke admitted that he couldn't have killed Orochimaru if it not for Orochimaru suffering in his bed, coughing blood. Acquiring MS meant he might've already surpassed Orochimaru where Orochimaru was indicated to have been defeated by a 13 (?) year old Itachi who already had his own MS. Now I'm not sure if acquiring an MS also equates Sauce surpassing Itachi because there weren't any statements to back it up nor was his feats indicative of it.

BUt if you are to question me, I'd still think possessing a Mangekyo  Sharingan, mastering it for a long time and possessing legendary weapons is still superior with what Sauce had. In short, MS Sauce is < or = to MS Itachi.

And now that Sauce already has Itachi's eyes, obviously dictates that he already surpassed Itachi. That's where these benchmarks trends are pointing out to really. Naruto and Sauce was always been meant to be parallels, and Minato and Itachi respectively were the ultimate benchmarks that they had already succeeded to surpass as of late. Now that Madara and Hashirama's were reintroduced, sets a new benchmark for those two characters..



Fragile said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah that's not how I'd call "few little points".


----------



## Turrin (Mar 2, 2013)

senjuclanownedme said:


> I interpret the text different. For me Minato is saying I will use the only jutsu that a non Jinchuriki could possibly use to seal the 9 tails, the Shikifujin.
> So Minato is using the only jutsu outside sealing the 9 tails in yourself that could work.


He used Hakke Seal to seal the 9-tails as well, so that interpretation doesn't make sense. 



> Kushina was going to die anyway. That's why Minato said he was going to seal her chakra in Naruto. It would be pointless sealing her chakra inside Naruto if she could have survived.


Yes she was going to die anyway, which is why I said we don't know whether or not she could do it w/o dying. 

Also dragging the nine-tails back into a seal that was already made is a bit different than making the seal yourself.



> Possibly, but she has no one of note to fight or any chance to demonstrate her strength.


She has Kurama. All she really needs to show is some ridiculous Fuuinjutsu and for Kishi to keep hyping her.


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## Reddan (Mar 2, 2013)

Turrin said:


> He used Hakke Seal to seal the 9-tails as well, so that interpretation doesn't make sense.


He used Hakke Seal to seal the 9 tails into a Jinchuriki. It does not seem to make sense that only a non Jinchuriki would be able to use Death God jutsu.


> Yes she was going to die anyway, which is why I said we don't know whether or not she could do it w/o dying.
> 
> Also dragging the nine-tails back into a seal that was already made is a bit different than making the seal yourself.


I am not sure there is much difference and I assume she would have knowledge of her own seal. Again she was doing this on her literal death bed and exhausted. Also somebody else in Konoha sealed the whole 9 tails in Kushina. 


> She has Kurama. All she really needs to show is some ridiculous Fuuinjutsu and for Kishi to keep hyping her.


It is possible and he may do that if he wants Naruto to seal Madara.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 2, 2013)

senjuclanownedme said:


> He used Hakke Seal to seal the 9 tails into a Jinchuriki.


No he didn't. Naruto wasn't a Jinchuuriki until after he had Kyuubi sealed into him. 



> It does not seem to make sense that only a non Jinchuriki would be able to use Death God jutsu.


We have never seen a Jinchuuriki use Shiki Fuujin to seal a Bijuu. On the other hand we have seen non-Jinchuuriki seal Kurama with other Fuuinjutsu besides Shiki Fuujin. So i'm going to say the interpretation, which hasn't directly been proven wrong makes more sense, than the one that has. 



> I am not sure there is much difference and I assume she would have knowledge of her own seal. Again she was doing this on her literal death bed and exhausted.


I think there is a difference, because Kushina doesn't have to create a seal which can contain Kurama, she just has to pull Kurama back into an already created seal.



> Also somebody else in Konoha sealed the whole 9 tails in Kushina.


Yeah probably Mito.



> It is possible and he may do that if he wants Naruto to seal Madara.


Yeah I think it's kind of important to Naruto's character to establish that Uzamaki powers can rival those of Senju; Mito would be the one to do that.


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 3, 2013)

Hossaim said:


> I thought this was dead?
> 
> List anyway:
> S+
> ...



You made a blog with the exact replica of this tier list. You got ripped to shreds by yours truly and still, you haven't taken the constructive criticism to heart and changed it.

Not really surprised.


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## Seon (Mar 3, 2013)

What he has Obito shown that could take out a sannin really?


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## Seiji (Mar 3, 2013)

S/T that allows him to be untouchable + Rinnegan + Hashirama cells. The Sannin even though they're formidable as a team won't be able to do jack against that if Naruto, Bee, Kakashi 'n Gai couldn't.


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## Eliyua23 (Mar 4, 2013)

S+

Rikudo 

S

Edo Madara 
Rinnegan Obito

S-

 Hashirama
 BM Naruto
 EMS Madara
 Minato
 Kabuto
 Mito
 Kushina 
 Nagato
 EMS Sasuke

A+

Danzo
Pain
SM Naruto
MS Sasuke
Itachi 
Oochimaru 
Jiriyia
Killer Bee
Prime Hanzo

A- 

Kakashi
Gaara
Tsunade 
Raikage
Onoki
Muu
Trollkage
4th Kazekage
Sasori
Kisame
3rd Raikage
Gai
Old Hiruzen 

A 

Deidara
Hebi Sasuke
FRS Naruto


    That's all for now


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## Kakashi Hatake (Mar 4, 2013)

*S+++++++++++*
0. Rikudou

*S+++++++*
1. Itachi with charged Koto
2. Rinnegan Madara with Incomplete Juubi
3. Rinnegan Obito with Incomplete Juubi
4. Hashirama

*S++++++*
5. EMS Madara with Kyuubi 
6. Orochimaru with ET
7. Rinnegan Obito with Gedo Mazo
7. Kabuto with ET
.
.
.
.
*S+*
8. EMS Madara
9. Tobirama Senju
10. Current/BM Naruto 

*S*
11. Itachi 
12. SM Kabuto 
13. Nagato 
13. Sharingan Obito

*S-*
14. RM Naruto
15. Minato
16. Hiruzen
16. Onoki
16. Danzo
18. Shisui

*A+*
19. Hanzo
19. Sakumo Hatake
19. Nidaime Mizukage
19. Muu
19. Sandaime Raikage
20. MS Sasuke
21. SM Naruto
22. Orochimaru (Without ET)

*A-*
23. Kakashi
24. Gai
25. Raikage
26. Jiraiya
27. Tsunade
28. Gaara
29. Mei

*A*
30. Kisame
31. Sasori
32. Deidara
33. Kakuzu
34. Sandaime Kazekage

*B+*
35. Yondaime Kazekage


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## Eliyua23 (Mar 4, 2013)

Krippy said:


> OMG
> 
> dude, I seriously hope you are trolling
> 
> please tell me you are trolling



I think that's pretty accurate


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## Krippy (Mar 4, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> I think that's pretty accurate



why did you put featless characters like mito and kushina above nagato, sasuke, SM naruto, danzo, itachi, etc.? 


here we go

0.
- RS

1. 
- Datara (V2 Juubi + Madara + Obito)
- Edo Madara

2.
- Hashimara Senju
- EMS Madara
- BM Naruto
- Rinnegan Obito

4.
- Prime Nagato 
- RM/KCM Naruto
- EMS Sasuke/Edo Itachi
- SM Kabuto 
- Killer Bee
- Pain

5. 
- MS Itachi
- MS Sasuke
- SM Naruto
- SM Jiraiya
- Sandaime Raikage
- Danzo
- Oonoki
- Ei
- Kakashi
- Muu/Trollkage
- Kisame/Gai

6.
- Sasori
- Hebi Sasuke
- Gaara
- Deidara
- Base Naruto/Base Sasuke
- Konan
- Mei
- Tsunade
- Kakuzu
- Hidan
- Black Zetsu
- Mifune


Unbiased and accurate

anybody I didn't list has too few feats to rank


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## Kai (Mar 4, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Minato says only a non-Jinchuuriki can use Shiki Fuujin, not that only a Jinchuuriki can seal Kyuubi. Mito is stated to have sealed the full Kyuubi, so we know a non-Jinchuuriki can do it.


I believe that was a bad translation.



			
				takL said:
			
		

> minato never said that. i dont know where the twisted interpretation came from but
> 
> he said shiki was the jutsu he who wasnt a jinchuriki could somewhat seal 9b in himself.
> not the otherway round.


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## Eliyua23 (Mar 4, 2013)

Krippy said:


> why did you put featless characters like mito and kushina above nagato, sasuke, SM naruto, danzo, itachi, etc.?
> 
> 
> here we go
> ...




based upon hype and feats

Mito and kushina were able to seal the entire 9 tails within themselves without dying, also kushina has hype of being stronger tha KCM Naruto and Kurama said Kushina was able to use the chakra transfer technique and she taught Minato all of his jutsu,

They are also the representatives of the main character's clan , kushina and Mito are that strong.


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## Kai (Mar 4, 2013)

Sealing the kyuubi isn't much of a representation of their power level if they weren't in a fight with it. In that case (the situation that we're currently aware) , that is a representation of the power level of their fuuinjutsu.

I don't believe we've either heard or seen of Mito/Kushina's capabilities as shinobi in an actual fight.


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## Krippy (Mar 4, 2013)

Kai summed it up, they have no combat feats to speak of, and she taught Minato all of her fuinjutsu, which all points to them having strong fuinjutsu, which is the extent of their feats

anybody in the 0-4 tier I listed would one-shot both of them


----------



## Eliyua23 (Mar 4, 2013)

Kai said:


> Sealing the kyuubi isn't much of a representation of their power level if they weren't in a fight with it. In that case (the situation that we're currently aware) , that is a representation of the power level of their fuuinjutsu.
> 
> I don't believe we've either heard or seen of Mito/Kushina's capabilities as shinobi in an actual fight.



KCM Naruto considered her a better shinobi than himself when he first mastered 9 tails chakra,

Also considering Rikudo used that same jutsu to defeat the Juubi , I think that's a feat probably one of the best feats in the manga.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Mar 4, 2013)

Krippy: MS Itachi should never be in the same category as Jiraiya or Kakashi (I'm a big Kakashi fan and even I thought thats wrong).


----------



## Krippy (Mar 4, 2013)

MS Itachi and SM Jiraiya are in the high kage tier, while Kakashi is on the upper end of the mid-kage tier

I used numbers to avoid typing out "low/mid/high kage" , my list is incomplete anyways


----------



## Dominus (Mar 4, 2013)

*1.* Rikudō Sennin


*2.* Madara Uchiha/ Obito Uchiha/ Hashirama Senju/ Naruto Uzumaki/ Kabuto Yakushi


*3.* Nagato/ Minato Namikaze/ Orochimaru/ Itachi Uchiha/ Sasuke Uchiha


*4.* Killer Bee/ Sandaime Raikage/ Mū/ Ōnoki/ Nidaime Mizukage/ Yondaime Raikage


*5.* Danzō Shimura/ Jiraiya/ Kakashi Hatake/ Maito Gai/ Tsunade/ Gaara/ Kisame Hoshigaki


*6.* Deidara/ Mei Terumī/ Kakuzu/ Hiruzen Sarutobi/ Sasori/ Konan 


*7.* Mifune/ Hanzō/ Yondaime Kazekage/ Hidan


----------



## Rain (Mar 4, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> KCM Naruto considered her a better shinobi than himself when he first mastered 9 tails chakra


----------



## Bontakun (Mar 4, 2013)

So, what's this thread about, other than the usual tiering argument? I didn't understand OP. What is this about voting?


----------



## Rain (Mar 4, 2013)

*The God*

-Rikudou Sennin

_Semi Gods:_

-Uchiha Madara
-Senju Hashirama

Transcendents:

- Obito Uchiha
- Naruto Uzumaki
- Nagato Uzumaki (Prime)
- Itachi Uchiha (Alive, Healthy)
- Kabuto Yakushi
- Sasuke Uchiha
- Minato Namikaze 

Kage tier (3 sub tiers)

*- Orochimaru
- Killer B
- Kakashi Hatake
- Second Mizukage
- Muu
- Sandaime Raikage*
_- Onoki
- Ei
- Jiraiya
- Gai
- Danzo
- Kisame_
- Tsunade (Support-wise)
- Deidara
- Sasori
- Konan
- Mei

Will update this shit with hype characters (hanzo, tobirama, sakumo etc...) and jonins


----------



## Eliyua23 (Mar 4, 2013)

Difference is Naruto is talking about strength , while Hashirama is talking about Itachi's ability to sacrifice his clan/life for the greater good.


----------



## KingBoo (Mar 4, 2013)

1 - *Strongest characters due to the story revolving around them and getting free power ups*
Naruto (w/ Kurama)/Sauske (w/ Itachi's eyes)/and whoever is the FV (w/ all free power ups)

2 - *Top Tier post Ninja system*

*Spoiler*: __ 



Aoba (with EMS)



Itachi
Nagato
Minato
SM Kabuto (no edo)

3 - *Top Tier pre Ninja system*

Hashirama/EMS Madara

4 - *Elites*
Orochimaru (no edo)
Killerbee
Onoiki
A/that other raikage
Muu/Clamkage

5 - *Upperclass*
Obito (with MS and Rinnegan)
Kakashi/Gai
Jiraiya
Tsunade
Danzo
Gaara

6 - *B-list characters that are training wheels for other characters*
Deidara
Kakuzu/Sasori
Kisame
Chiyo
Mei (the mizukage)
Gaara's dad
Konan

7 - *Middle of no where Tier*
Chouji/Neji/Temari/Kankuro (w/Sasori)
Rocklee/Sai/Ino
Sauske's followers
Shikamaru
Hinata/Kiba
The other konohoa chuunins (ex: anko)
Karin

8 - *Worthless*
sakura
obito (w/rin installed in brain)

that's how it looks like to me. if they are in the same tier, the one that's placed higher has a bigger chance of winning the fight against someone else in the same tier.

i consider all jutsus, skill/talent, character stats and traits, and how i think kishi would pen the fight (except with sakura, i hate her). i am not easily swayed by dbz jutsus (onoiki's laser beam, jinchuuriki demon bomb, madara and hashirama go go power ranger megazords, etc) like some other people here

damn, i hate typing so much. but it's always fun thinking about it


----------



## Turrin (Mar 4, 2013)

Kai said:


> I believe that was a bad translation.



Ether way it's clearly possible for a Non-Jinchuuriki to seal the full Kyuubi as Mito sealed the full beast.



Kai said:


> Sealing the kyuubi isn't much of a representation of their power level if they weren't in a fight with it. In that case (the situation that we're currently aware) , that is a representation of the power level of their fuuinjutsu.



It's a representation of Fuuinjutsu skills. Mito sealing the full kyuubi inside her is the best Fuuinjutsu feat in the mange besides Rikudo sealing Juubi.



> I don't believe we've either heard or seen of Mito/Kushina's capabilities as shinobi in an actual fight.


We know Mito has off the charts Fuuinjutsu, we know her chakra was off the charts even before becoming Kyuubi Jinchuuriki, we know she could use Tsunade's Yin Seal, and we know she can use KCM Naruto's sensing powers. So we have some knowledge of her capabilities.

In Kushina's case we saw her restrain Kyuubi, put up a barrier around Kyuubi, and could use chakra transfer when half dead. We also know Naruto considered her stronger than him even after getting KCM and only surpassed her after gaining BM & mastering chakra transfer.


----------



## Seiji (Mar 4, 2013)

Bontakun said:


> So, what's this thread about, other than the usual tiering argument? I didn't understand OP. What is this about voting?



This thread is already messed up.


----------



## Kai (Mar 4, 2013)

Turrin, anything Kushina displayed is a result of her prior exposure and experience as a jinchuuriki of Kurama.

If she encountered it wild she would not have any of those feats and would be crushed instantly.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 4, 2013)

Kai said:


> Turrin, anything Kushina displayed is a result of her prior exposure and experience as a jinchuuriki of Kurama.
> 
> If she encountered it wild she would not have any of those feats and would be crushed instantly.


Why are we suddenly taking her experience and knowledge gained as a Jinchuuriki away from her? That's a completely unfair nerf of Kushina for no reason.

Also I'm not sure what you mean by "anything she displayed". 

Your argument was we haven't seen Kushina display any abilities in an actual fight, but Kushina & Minato vs Kurama was an actual fight and the abilities she displayed were insanely impressive considering she was half dead.

Though I don't know why we'd be merely rating Kushina on her fight record, when we have many indications of her abilities/level via statements. 

Kushina is indicated by the manga to be roughly around the same level as Minato. She taught Minato his Fuuinjutsu techniques, possessed the same chakra transfer as Minato, and Naruto surpassed both of them at the same time in the manga, through the same power up.


----------



## Kai (Mar 4, 2013)

Because IIRC her chakra chains result from her seal which Kurama had been a part of and had a history with, which allowed her to restrain him. 

It was stated Mito sealed Kurama as her own deed but it was never stated Kushina did the same on her own.

As far as we are concerned neither kunoichi faced Kurama in direct battle, so Mito/Kushina "soloing Kurama" to stack as a claim to fame is unfounded upon. It was even stated Mito helped Hashirama seal Kurama within herself after the battle in which Kurama had been participating in was *over.* For the extraction sealing process into Kushina, it's most likely the process would have had major precautions to make sure it went smoothly without bloodshed.


----------



## Santoryu (Mar 4, 2013)

Fragile said:


> Just a few little points. If you think that Masashi Kishimoto is portraying Kakashi in the same roof with that of Itachi, then you are not understanding what Author portrayal really means. I share a similar view with Sirius in this one. Surely, featwise Kakashi is more than capable of trolling anyone with just his haxed jutsu. Not only Itachi but even the likes of Madara or Naruto since they are yet to show any reliable counters to it. But if we are to imagine a battle going to take place in the manga that involves Kakashi and these characters, how confident are you that Kakashi can defeat them? Itachi specifically? Featwise, Kamui is definitely one of the most dangerous techniques capable of killing 99 percent of the Narutoverse, so as they say. However, that isn't really the case now is it? It has only ever been shown to use for support and supplementary purposes. Why? Because that's the limit as how Kishimoto portrays Kamui in Kakashi's possession. That's how Kishimoto portrays Kakashi. And until I see a major power up from him in this arc, that's how I'm seeing it.
> 
> Secondly, Kakashi not beating anyone of relevance without extensive help is already a testament of this. Kakashi earlier in part 1 was slapped around by Itachi and that fight alone indicates the massive level difference between these two characters. The same goes in the beginning of part 2, where nothing has really changed. Despite outsmarting him in that occasion, he still ultimately needed Naruto's aid to defeat a thirty percent shoten Itachi. The same thing happens again in the Immortal arcs that if it weren't for Naruto and Yamato's intervention, they would've been killed. Then the trend continues around Pain where his most powerful jutsu, instead of finally seeing it being used as tool to show how formidable he is with it, was tossed around for defensive measures.
> 
> ...



You've misinterpreted most of my post, and even then, your logic is heavily-flawed.



> Kakashi is more than capable of *trolling anyone* with just his haxed jutsu. Not only Itachi but even the likes of Madara or Naruto since they are yet to show any reliable counters to it


No he's not. Kakashi is not capable of "trolling" Obito with his jutsu alone until proven otherwise.

Naruto can believabley evade it, and he controls the Kyuubi. Madara has EMS AND a Rinnegan; keep in mind that he had no problems reacting to Raikage's/Onoki's full speed. He's well aware of Obito's abilities, and probably has a ton of abilities we have yet to see.



> Despite outsmarting him in that occasion, he still ultimately needed Naruto's aid to defeat a thirty percent shoten Itachi.


What? All Naruto did was land the finishing blow-something Kakashi could've done himself.

Hachibi's tentacle



> The same thing happens again in the Immortal arcs that if it weren't for Naruto and Yamato's intervention, they would've been killed.


except not really
Link removed



> It has only ever been shown to use for support and supplementary purposes. Why?


this is incorrect, actually; even hundreds of chapters ago we've seen that kakashi used it offensively against deidara which resulted in the latter losing an arm. this was when kakashi could not control the jutsu very well. 

This is getting rather tedious; due to your numerous amount of half-truths/lies, i don't think your entire post warrants a rebuttal.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Mar 4, 2013)

Kai said:


> Because IIRC her chakra chains result from her seal which Kurama had been a part of and had a history with, which allowed her to restrain him.


Kushina's chakra had that quality before she became a jinchuriki, in fact it's the reason why she was brought to Konoha to become one.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 4, 2013)

Kai said:


> Because IIRC her chakra chains result from her seal which Kurama had been a part of and had a history with, which allowed her to restrain him.


Kushina used the chains without Kurama being sealed in her and we saw her chains make physical contact with the ground. So it's not just some spiritual connection, she can actually produce the chains, which is most likely due to her unique chakra. Her unique chakra being the reason she was picked to be Kyuubi Jinchuuriki in the first place.



> It was stated Mito sealed Kurama as her own deed but it was never stated Kushina did the same on her own.


I never said Kushina sealed Kurama on her own. 



> As far as we are concerned neither kunoichi faced Kurama in direct battle, so Mito/Kushina "soloing Kurama" to stack as a claim to fame is unfounded upon.


Kushina did face Kurama in direct battle, we saw that in the manga lol.

With Mito your right we don't know, but I never said she fought Kurama, I said she sealed Kurama, which shows her Fuuinjutsu skills.


----------



## Fragile (Mar 4, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> You've misinterpreted most of my post, and even then, your logic is heavily-flawed.



If I had misinterpreted your post, then I've no problem apologizing, just state where and why I had gone wrong about my point on Kakashi's portrayal. But it's rather hypocritical of you to accuse my logic as flawed without ever bothering to refute all of them or pointing out what part of my logic is flawed. Just because you heavily disagree on it, you have no right to condemn it as flawed. But it's not something new to me though. People will always say that when they can't think of anyway how to prove the argument wrong.

It's nice of you to cherry pick chunks of my post and just conveniently quote whatever you can answer. Way to go debating.



> No he's not. Kakashi is not capable of "trolling" Obito with his jutsu alone until proven otherwise. Naruto can believabley evade it, and he controls the Kyuubi. Madara has EMS AND a Rinnegan; keep in mind that he had no problems reacting to Raikage's/Onoki's full speed. He's well aware of Obito's abilities, and probably has a ton of abilities we have yet to see



I said "anyone" NOT "everyone". It's common knowledge that there are characters who are more than able to counter it such as fellow S/T users. All I'm saying is that Kakashi and his almost uncounter-able jutsu can defeat top tiers under the most rigged circumstances in favor of Kakashi.



> What? All Naruto did was land the finishing blow-something Kakashi could've done himself.
> 
> why did he switch to EMS to cast a Genjutsu on A



Fair enough. Just a thought though. If Kakashi was just alone in that encounter and if Itachi wasn't holding back (meaning, he's fighting to kill rather than stall and if he was a true enemy and not a secret ally who doesn't hesitate to kill), I'd doubt if he could replicate that feat anyway.



> except not really
> why did he switch to EMS to cast a Genjutsu on A



What does this prove? Sure he would've used his MS eventually but all he could warp would've only been Kakuzu's attack that were as big, if not bigger than Deidara's explosion. Another attempt in warping any more attacks that Kakuzu brings would result him to the hospital like he' himself said. If Naruto hadn't arrive like he did, Kakashi would've been forced to use Kamui in the same way he did against Pain and gets killed in the process. It's also unsure if he would be successful in warping Kakuzu and defeating him ultimately, anyway and not just his attacks as again, we're unsure how much his Kamui improved. 

Plus it only proves what I'm saying about Kakashi's portrayal. He was a device meant to make way for Naruto and show how he was now superior to his sensei AT THAT TIME. Thus, he was held back as usual.



> this is incorrect, actually; even hundreds of chapters ago we've seen that kakashi used it offensively against deidara which resulted in the latter losing an arm. this was when kakashi could not control the jutsu very well.



He used it against Deidara because that's the only way for them to retrieve Gaara. Had it not been for Gaara being held captive, would you think Kakashi would still use it offensively? He didn't use it offensively against Itachi. No? He didn't plan on using it offensively against Kakuzu unless they really needed it to save their lives from those deadly elemental attacks. No? He didn't use it offensively against a man who just conquered his village. No?



> This is getting rather tedious; due to your numerous amount of half-truths/lies, i don't think your entire post warrants a rebuttal.



Classic. Everyone can say that as means to mask frustration or inability to justify where they disagree in particular or just refuse to accept what they disagree with. But to be honest, I'm regretting that I've rebutted your post in the first place seeing as how it would be hopeless to convince you anyway since after all, it's about your favorite character. Right? In fact, don't answer. This debate no longer interests me.


----------



## Kai (Mar 4, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Kushina used the chains without Kurama being sealed in her and we saw her chains make physical contact with the ground. So it's not just some spiritual connection, she can actually produce the chains, which is most likely due to her unique chakra. Her unique chakra being the reason she was picked to be Kyuubi Jinchuuriki in the first place.


Then it would be more appropriate to say that Kushina has a unique chakra that allows her to maintain a bijuu and be the ideal host. What this also means is that her unique chakra has no influence against other shinobi, or else it wouldn't be unique in the nature it was described. There are no statements or feats of Kushina's fighting prowess — the only thing that can really be safely said is that she can probably enter tailed states if under similar duress as other jinchuuriki. 

Is Yamato > Oro/Jiraiya's level on the tier list because he subdued KN4 with far less difficulty?

As Tobi was going to demonstrate, Kushina can get crushed by Kurama in the blink of an eye. 



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> With Mito your right we don't know, but I never said she fought Kurama, I said she sealed Kurama, which shows her Fuuinjutsu skills.


If Mito didn't fight Kurama, how is the feat applicable to her power? 

How do you give due credit to a shinobi over his/her opponent if there was no conflict involved between the two?

As far as we're concerned Mito performed a high class fuuinjutsu on Kurama (who was done fighting from VOTE, most likely tamed) and that was the end of it without bloodshed. 

Furthermore Kishi hasn't portrayed a single female in the manga to be in those highest of tiers, which is not a sexist remark but a well established fact. The wives were portrayed as aiding, sealing, caregiving, and being good containers. 

It's far less likely that the wives were in the same league as their husbands, you know the _actual_ fighters and the lead power in the entire village.


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## Turrin (Mar 4, 2013)

Kai said:


> Then it would be more appropriate to say that Kushina has a unique chakra that allows her to maintain a bijuu and be the ideal host. What this also means is that her unique chakra has no influence against other shinobi, or else it wouldn't be unique in the nature it was described.


Her chakra is unique for being more powerful than the other Uzamaki. That has benefits besides against Kurama. Additional her chains can interact with the physical world in general, not just Kurama. 



> There are no statements or feats of Kushina's fighting prowess ? the only thing that can really be safely said is that she can probably enter tailed states if under similar duress as other jinchuuriki.


Yes there are statements. Naruto called her stronger than him even after gaining KCM. DB III says her skill in Ninjutsu was so great it even impressed the Sannin. Naruto is only stated to have surpassed her after achieving both BM & Chakra Transfer. It's stated that Kushina taught Minato Fuuinjutsu. Those are all things that are combat related. Kushina also set up a powerful Kekkai that contained not only Kurama, but also kept Hiruzen & company out. 

These are all statements & feats which indicate Kushina's level. Whether she's that level for primarily support or primarily fighting purpose, isn't really an issue I care about.



> Is Yamato > Oro/Jiraiya's level on the tier list because he subdued KN4 with far less difficulty?


Of course not, but it's not like Yamato's Mokuton only works on Kurama, it's just more effective against Kurama. 



> As Tobi was going to demonstrate, Kushina can get crushed by Kurama in the blink of an eye.


Really LOL, your going to base Kushina's performance on a time when she just gave birth and just had Kurama ripped out of her. 



> If Mito didn't fight Kurama, how is the feat applicable to her power?


Because it shows her Fuuinjutsu prowess.



> How do you give due credit to a shinobi over his/her opponent if there was conflict involved between the two?


I never said what Mito did proves she's stronger than Kurama or even beat Kurama, so your attacking a straw man.



> Furthermore Kishi hasn't portrayed a single female in the manga to be in those highest of tiers, which is not a racist remark but a well established fact. The wives were portrayed as aiding, sealing, caregiving, and being good containers.


Kushina has been portrayed as that strong, the only way to deny this is if we ignore the statements made about her.

The problem is that Tsunade has been indicated to be in the same level as the other Sannin & Kushina has been indicated to be in the same tier as Minato. Granted in Tsunade's case it is for her support abilities and not her combat abilities, which could be the case of Kushina as well. However I don't really care about that distinction, just that they are the same level.


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## AvengeRpro (Mar 5, 2013)

It's more entertaining to rank lesser tier characters.

Sure we all saw itachi schooling fully powered nagato and sage mode kabuto, but where's the fun on putting him above those. The fun is on ranking tenten with and without the banana fan, and rock lee too since just like gai he has the potential of defeating high tier chars such as kisame or surprise madara.


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## Jad (Mar 5, 2013)

Seon said:


> 2
> 
> This should end the whole Kakashi-Itachi thing. Kakashi had Kamui at this point and still admitted to being inferior to Itachi. Nothing has changed from here. In fact, if anyone brings up Kamui, you could also bring up Susano'o as Itachi's powerup or even Izanami. I still believe Itachi was hyped more than Kakashi.
> 
> The only reason he can use Kamui more is because of the Kyuubi which has been stated.



At that time his Kamui took hours to form, remember him chasing Deidara. Wasn't useful in ambush type situations at that time.


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## Sniffers (Mar 5, 2013)

*Raw power versus hax and the difficulty with ranking characters.*

Hashirama and Madara can fight at a grand scale where they topple mountains and create entire forests. Such power would be considered godly and it's easy to set them at the top of the tier list (barring RS). However, with abilities as broken as KotoAmatsukami, Kamui, Tsukuyomi, Hiraishin, Shiki Fujin and legendary items such as Totsuka, it becomes really hard to rank people. Not to mention that these powers are generally held by extremely intelligent people who can read their opponents so well that they can predict what their next move will be before the opponent even knows. An extremely dangerous combination.

In the end it is hard to say who will win in a fight of raw power versus hax/skill. I think that at this point it all comes down to plot and favouritism whether the character with raw power overwhelms or falls to a clever OHKO trick.​


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## tsunadefan (Mar 5, 2013)

@ sniffers, I personally believe that hax beat raw power and sometimes hype.


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> Hashirama and Madara can fight at a grand scale where they topple mountains and create entire forests. Such power would be considered godly and it's easy to set them at the top of the tier list (barring RS). However, with abilities as broken as KotoAmatsukami, Kamui, Tsukuyomi, Hiraishin, Shiki Fujin and legendary items such as Totsuka, it becomes really hard to rank people. Not to mention that these powers are generally held by extremely intelligent people who can read their opponents so well that they can predict what their next move will be before the opponent even knows. An extremely dangerous combination.
> 
> In the end it is hard to say who will win in a fight of raw power versus hax/skill. I think that at this point it all comes down to plot and favouritism whether the character with raw power overwhelms or falls to a clever OHKO trick.​


What Hashirama and Madara are capable off fit the definition of hax; "Something deemed unfair or unexpectedly unfavorable"

So it's not raw power vs Hax, it's Greater Hax vs lesser Hax.


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## Luftwaffles (Mar 13, 2013)

Thoughts on released Juugo??


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## Godaime Kazekage (Mar 13, 2013)

Deus ex Shinobi said:


> Thoughts on released Juugo??



Nothing the K11 couldn't handle.


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## tanman (Mar 13, 2013)

The list is agreeable right now.
Is the goal to become comprehensive?


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## Eliyua23 (Mar 23, 2013)

I got an updated Tier List 

S+++(Rikudo Level)

Rikudo Sennin
Juubi


S++(GOS)

Edo Madara 
Rinnegan Obito
Full Powered Hashirama

S+(Legendary)

Hashirama
Tobirama
Minato
BM Naruto
Orochimaru(Full Power)
EMS Madara
Kabuto(Full Power)
Prime Hiruzen
Kushina
Mito

S(Beyond Kage)

KCM/SM Naruto
Nagato(Full Power)
Edo Itachi
Danzo(Koto)
Orochimaru(Pt 1)
Kabuto(SM)
Obito(Sharingan)
Gaara(Desert)


S-(High Kage)

SM Naruto
MS Sasuke
Sick Itachi
Jiriyia
Old Hiruzen
Danzo(No Koto)
6Paths of Pain
Killer Bee
Onoki 
Konan(Paper Ocean)
Tsunade(Support)
Kakashi(Kyuubi Chakra)
Prime Hanzo
Izuna
Shisui

A+(Kage)

Gaara
Kakashi
Raikage
Sandaime Raikage
Muu
Trollkage
4th Kazekage
Kin/Gin


A-(Low Kage)

Konan
Tsunade(combat)
Mei
Sasori
Gai
Kisame
Hanzo(War Arc)
Mifune
Hebi Sasuke
FRS Naruto

B+ (Elite Jounin)

Deidara
Kakuzu
Darui
Shikamaru(Preperation)
Butterfly Chouji
Sakura(Support)
Dan
Hiashi
Neji
Kimmimaro
Chiyo
Ino(Support)
Kankuro
Suigestu


B-(Jounin)

Hidan
Asuma
Ino-Shika-Chouza
Zetsu
Ao
Temari
Zabuza
Juugo


C+(Low Jounin)

Hinata
Sakura(combat)
Kiba
Rock Lee


All For Now


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## Godaime Kazekage (Mar 23, 2013)

So now people are differentiating Hashiramas? When will the madness stop?


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## Eliyua23 (Mar 23, 2013)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> So now people are differentiating Hashiramas? When will the madness stop?



Hashirama at one point possessed all 9 tailed beast at once


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## Dragonus Nesha (Mar 23, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> Hashirama at one point possessed all 9 tailed beast at once


Manga page, please.


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## Eliyua23 (Mar 23, 2013)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> Manga page, please.



3rd Databook Pg 57


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## Dragonus Nesha (Mar 23, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> 3rd Databook Pg 57


 Kakuzu's profile page makes no mention of bijū.


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## Eliyua23 (Mar 23, 2013)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> Kakuzu's profile page makes no mention of bijū.



for his plan


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## Dragonus Nesha (Mar 23, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> for his plan


Still not seeing where it is says "all" or even "nine."


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## Eliyua23 (Mar 23, 2013)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> Still not seeing where it is says "all" or even "nine."



It says he split them up among the 5 nations, meaning he had most if not all in his possession, even if he had just some multiple tailed beasts is enough to warrant his placement on my tier list.


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## abc123 (Mar 23, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> It says he split them up among the 5 nations, meaning he had most if not all in his possession, even if he had just some multiple tailed beasts is enough to warrant his placement on my tier list.


No... when he says he "split them amongst the five great ninja countries", by "them" Tobi is referring to "the first hokage once had a number of them under control" - by saying 'number' he's rather obviously saying not all of them


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## Eliyua23 (Mar 24, 2013)

Rothwell said:


> No... when he says he "split them amongst the five great ninja countries", by "them" Tobi is referring to "the first hokage once had a number of them under control" - by saying 'number' he's rather obviously saying not all of them



even if he had some that's enough to place him on the tier with Current Obito and Rinnegan Madara.


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## Eliyua23 (May 30, 2013)

I got an updated Tier List 

(Rikudo Level)

Rikudo Sennin
Juubi


(GOS)

Edo Madara 
Rinnegan Obito
Hashirama
Minato
BM Naruto
Kabuto(Full Power)

Legendary


Tobirama
Orochimaru(War Arc)
EMS Madara
Prime Hiruzen
Kushina
Mito
Edo Itachi 
KCM Naruto
Edo Nagato
Obito(Sharingan)
Danzo(Koto)


Beyond Kage 

Danzo(No Koto)
Orochimaru(Pt 1)
Gaara(Desert)
Kakashi(Kyuubi Chakra)
Pain
SM Naruto
MS Sasuke
Jiriyia
Killer Bee
Sick Itachi 
Tsunade 
Onoki
Sakura
Prime Hanzo

Kage 

Old Hiruzen
Gaara
Raikage
Sandaime Raikage
Muu
Trollkage
4th Kazekage
Kin/Gin


Low Kage

Konan
Mei
Sasori
Gai
Kisame
Hanzo(War Arc)
Mifune
Hebi Sasuke
FRS Naruto

 (Elite Jounin)

Deidara
Kakuzu
Darui
Shikamaru(Preperation)
Butterfly Chouji
Dan
Hiashi
Neji
Kimmimaro
Chiyo
Ino(Support)
Kankuro
Suigestu


(Jounin)

Hidan
Asuma
Ino-Shika-Chouza
Zetsu
Ao
Temari
Zabuza
Juugo


(Low Jounin)

Hinata
Kiba
Rock Lee


All For Now


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## Elriga (May 30, 2013)

Why are there so many differentiations in Jounin? All that's needed is Jounin and Elite Jounin really....I'd put Rock Lee at least at Jounin


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## Eliyua23 (May 30, 2013)

Elriga said:


> Why are there so many differentiations in Jounin? All that's needed is Jounin and Elite Jounin really....I'd put Rock Lee at least at Jounin



There's Elite  Jounin (like Asuma)

There's Jounin (Like Neji)

There's Jounin Specialist/Low Jounin( Like Gemma)


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## abc123 (May 30, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> S+(Legendary)
> 
> 
> Tobirama
> ...


Hahaha
Kushina (and Mito) on same level as those guys. You are funny


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## Eliyua23 (May 30, 2013)

Rothwell said:


> Hahaha
> Kushina (and Mito) on same level as those guys. You are funny



Check their feats 

Mito sealed the entire 100% Kyuubi within herself a feat only outdone by Rikudo Sennin himself sealing the Juubi within him, it's one of the 5 best feats within the manga 

Kushina was able to restrain the 100% Kyuubi on her death bed and was a container for Kurama


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## abc123 (May 31, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> Check their feats
> 
> Mito sealed the entire 100% Kyuubi within herself a feat only outdone by Rikudo Sennin himself sealing the Juubi within him, it's one of the 5 best feats within the manga
> 
> Kushina was able to restrain the 100% Kyuubi on her death bed and was a container for Kurama


BREAKING NEWS
CLAN WHICH SPECIALISES IN FUINJUTSU HAS GOOD FUINJUTSU FEATS
INSTANT LEGENDARY NINJA LEVEL


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## αce (May 31, 2013)

Meh here's my two cents


Tier 1
The Original Rikudou
Juubi

Tier 2
Madara (current)
Hashirama
Obito
Naruto


Tier 3
Sasuke
Minato
Itachi


the rest


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## tsunadefan (Jun 1, 2013)

ok. how are we doing this thing? haven't been here in a while so update me.


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## Strauss (Jun 1, 2013)

Here's kind of representative of what I think:

Kage + level:

Madara
Hashirama 
Obito
Naruto
Minato

Kage level:

Hiruzen
Onoki
Gaara
Itachi
A
Danzo
Tsunade
Orochimaru
Jiraiya
_possibly_ Sasuke; he kept up with A and Danzo but, if you think about the circumstances of each battle I think he would be a lower-Kage level or something.

Upper Jonin level:

Kakashi
Gai
Sakura
Yamato
Lord Hiashi
Kisame 

Jonin level:

The rest of the Konoha 11
Anko
Shizune

Do the people underneath this matter?  lol


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## Dr. White (Jun 1, 2013)

*Transcendent Tier:*
Rikudo Sennin
Prime Juubi


Current Juubi

*Semi- Transcendent Tier:*
-Kabuto(w/ ET)
-Orochimaru(w/ ET 4 HK)
-Edo Madara
-Hashirama(w/ SM)
-Obito(w/ Rinnengan)
-BM Naruto
-Edo Minato(w/ KCM)
-EMS Madara w/ Kyuubi

*Top Kage Tier: *
-Nagato
-KCM Naruto
-EMS Sasuke
-Minato/Edo Itachi
-SM Kabuto(No ET)
-MS Obito
-Tobirama(hype)
-Killer Bee

*High Kage Tier:*
-SM Naruto
-Six Paths of Pein
-Sick Itachi
-MS Sasuke
-Muu
-Sandaime Raikage
-Jinchuriki Paths(w/ Doujutsu/Bjuu mode)
-Ei
-Onooki
-Jiraiya
-TrollKage
-Danzo
-Hiruzen
-Gin/Kin Ind.(w/ Kyuubi mode)
-Prime Hanzo

*Mid Kage Tier:*
Gaara
Orochimaru
Tsunade
Kakashi/Gai(Kamui/Gates)
Mei
Kisame
Hebi Sasuke
Diedara
Kakuzu
Sasori
Yondaime Kazekage
Konan

*Low Kage Tier:*
Mifune
Post Fuuton Naruto
Sakura
Edo Kimmimaro
BM Chouji
Chiyo(Holy Puppets/Med skills)
Darui
Dan Kato(Hype/Hax)

*Elite Jounin Tier:*
-Hyuuga Hizashi
-Kankuro
-Seven Swordsman of the Mist(Individually)
-Kitsuchi
-Juugo
-Pt. 1 Gaara
-Pakura
-Gari
-Pt. 1 Kakashi
-Yamato
-Asuma
-Hidan
-Zabuza
-Ino-Shika-Cho Fathers
-Suigetsu

*Jounin Tier:*
-Neji/Lee(War Feats/Gates)
-Sick Kimmimaro
-Chojuro
-Temari
-Pt. 1 Kabuto
-Torune(Hype)
-Toroi(Hype)
-Kidomaru
-Kurotsuchi
-Baki
-Fuu/Ao
-Sai
-Anko
-Shizune

*Chunin Tier:*
-Shikamaru
-Shino
-Hinata
-Sakon/Ukon
-Kiba
-Tayuya
-Jirubo
-Hiyate Gekko
-Kotetsu
-Izumo
-Ino
-Ten-Ten
-Karin


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 1, 2013)

RS-Juubi tier.

Rikudou tier (full Rikudous, not attempts like Danzo).

Hokage tier. 

Top tier (pre-KCM Minato, Jiraiya, Orochimaru w/o ET Itachi types -- basically the top tiers.)


Naruto/Sasuke/Kabuto are above the top tier. They're either somewhere around Hokage tier. 

Rikudous are places so high given the broken-ness of their Doujutsu. Kabuto goes to Rikudou tier when you factor in ET and Oro jumps to Hokage tier when you factor in ET.


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## joshhookway (Jun 2, 2013)

I nominate Prime Kabuto, which includes all his edos, as S tier, above everyone else.


Prime Kabuto controls Madara, who is alone s tier.


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## Trojan (Jun 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> RS-Juubi tier.
> 
> Rikudou tier (full Rikudous, not attempts like Danzo).
> *
> ...



So pre-RM Minato was not already Hokage?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 2, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> So pre-RM Minato was not already Hokage?



According to Fukasaku, pre-KCM Minato was beneath SM Naruto. Makes sense given that [a] Minato was given a power up (KCM) to combat foes above SM Naruto and * he needs KCM to work alongside the other three Hokage.*


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## ZE (Jun 2, 2013)

He didn’t need kcm to outspeed the other kages and to do a feat (stopping Jyuubi’s strongest attack) that only a barrier produced by four hokage level shinobis could replicate. 

So far we have this:

-Base Minato is faster than any other kage
-Base Minato can do alone what no other kage can, which is stopping Jyuubi’s strongest attack


These type of arguments can also be used to imply the other hokages aren't base Minato's level because by themselves they haven't shown a jutsu that can stop Jyuubi's bijuu dama. 

Hiruzen needs Minato's help to erect a barrier that can stop the Jyuubi dama.
Hashirama more of the same.
Same for Tobirama... 

Minato is the only one that can do it alone. While in base.


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## Trojan (Jun 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> According to Fukasaku, pre-KCM Minato was beneath SM Naruto. Makes sense given that [a] Minato was given a power up (KCM) to combat foes above SM Naruto and * he needs KCM to work alongside the other three Hokage.*


*

Takl






			Bunta "lord grandpa…didnt you just see the familiar backs of the two? "
fukasaku to bunta "so it seems..."
fukasaku in his mind "seems like Naruto-chan has outstripped his forerunner(/s)."


its just fukasaku's sentiments at that instant. dont read too much into it.
		
Click to expand...


and by that according to the Raikage no one can surpass Minato!
and that came after Pa's statement!

1- Minato in base wipe the floor with Obito who's stronger than SM Naruto
and he fought A & B who are also stronger than SM Naruto

2- LOL, So Hashirama needs SM to work alongside old Hiruzen and Tobirama? lol 
OR Madara needs the Rinngan because an exhausted Naruto's clone with Gaara
is actually > EMS Madara. Seems logical.

and Base Minato is > Tobirama and old Hurizen (from Kushina's flashback)
so SM Naruto is stronger than them as well. wich still make Minato Hokage level, because for God's sake
he was already Hokage before that, even IF SM naruto is stronger than him, that make SM Naruto Hokage level
not the other way around, because like it or not BASE Minato IS a HOKAGE.*


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## Nic (Jun 2, 2013)

there's such a huge gap between Minato and the uchiha brothers that it just looks weird putting them on the same tier.

ier 1
The Original Rikudou
Juubi

Tier 2
Madara (current)
Hashirama
Obito
BM Naruto
RM Minato

tier 3
Sasuke
Sandaime
Tobirama
Itachi


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 2, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Takl
> 
> and by that according to the Raikage no one can surpass Minato!
> and that came after Pa's statement!
> ...



A lot of people who ask translators to translate only do so selectively. Couple that with the fact Naruto exceeded Jiraiya/Minato with their own jutsu and you get that Naruto is above them. Kishimoto won't have put Fukasaku's sentiments there if it didn't mean anything. Kishimoto wanted us to know that Naruto was above Minato and Jiraiya.

Cool, except Ay doesn't know Minato as well as Fukasaku. In fact, Ay didn't even know about Sage Naruto's power. Holding onto Ay's statement is futile given Minato more or less said he was beneath Obito and we've got his own summon say he was surpassed. 

1 - Which is why Minato chose to die, saying only Naruto can stop Obito?  Fact is if Minato beating Obito is as meaningful as you propound, we wouldn't be seeing Minato kill himself because he couldn't stop Obito.

2 - We know Hashirama was on a league of his own relative to other Hokage. His own base chakra alone intimidated Hiruzen and Minato greatly. However given they're facing the Juubi he took no risks. 
You're making false analogies here: Madara has the Rinnegan, but has yet to use it to its full power as he doesn't need to this far. In the instance you referred to, you needed to use it. 

We've seen EMS Madara in action, now just because a canon statement said SM Naruto>Minato. It doesn't mean you take a straw man stance by misrepresenting the other events you compared. 

Unfortunately for you, you're just saying Minato is that strong without KCM without any real ground. Here are the facts: all the (first three) Hokage's full powers are unknown. Minato's was the most known, and we got a clear cut statement saying he was surpassed. Hence he got his power up to compete beyond his normal level without KCM. 

Base Minato may be a Hokage, but he's certainly not in the Hokage tier given that Kishimoto felt the need to indicate that he was surpassed by SM Naruto.


----------



## Trojan (Jun 2, 2013)

@ Munboy Dracule O'Brian

I was thinking about your logic and now I understand it more. It's actually make a lot of sense 
now. See 

1- SM Naruto > All the Hokages except Prime Hiruzen.  you wonder how I came to this?

OLD Hiruzen is stronger than Tobirama and Base Hashirama since he defeated both
Kishi KNOWS that base Hashi is NOT on the same level as OLD Hiruzen, so he gave him power up "SM"
OLD Hiruzen said that no one has a chance against Oro in the village and Minato can, so Minato > OLD Hiruzen > Tobirama & Hashirama

SM Naruto > base Minato > Old Hiruzen > Hashirama & Tobirama. 

and even now since Hashi is NOT on the same level as OLD Hiruzen kishi make him use SM
so he can work with the others. 

Kishi proved again the SM Naruto > Hashirama. 

because naruto's CLONE almost one shot EMS Madara. Now, if you thinks about it from what
I stated before SM Naruto is stronger than the guy who's stronger than Hash, so he's logically
stronger than Madara. No wonder how he almost one shot him. 

Kishi knows that SM Naruto > EMS Madara. So he gave Madara the Rinngan, so he may have
a chance. BUT, wait!!! Naruto's clone is still stronger than Rinngan Madara!!! So what Kishi can
do? Yes, he gave Madara ANTHER power up the wood! but unfortunately the Clone is still TOO
powerful, so he made it disappear when he saw there is no chance to make Madara in the clone's level even after TWO power up! 

Thus, SM Naruto > ALL the Hokages. Except Maybe prime Hiruzen. 

your logic make so much more sense now. Thanks. 
I can rest in peace now. 

*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Trojan (Jun 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> A lot of people who ask translators to translate only do so selectively. Couple that with the fact Naruto exceeded Jiraiya/Minato with their own jutsu and you get that Naruto is above them. Kishimoto won't have put Fukasaku's sentiments there if it didn't mean anything. Kishimoto wanted us to know that Naruto was above Minato and Jiraiya.
> 
> Cool, except Ay doesn't know Minato as well as Fukasaku. In fact, Ay didn't even know about Sage Naruto's power. Holding onto Ay's statement is futile given Minato more or less said he was beneath Obito and we've got his own summon say he was surpassed.
> 
> ...



- It's Ok I already believe in this as stated in the last post. 
- LOL, so A who fought Minato several time does not know him as much as PA who we didn't
see them together even once? he does not know SM Naruto, but knows about RM. 

1- No, because he want to save the balance in power between the villgaes. Oh, and when he wipe the floor with Obito he did not attack the village for 16 years. lol 

2- No, Kishi wont say Hiruzen is stronger than them and make him defeat them if it has no meaning you already stated that.  If you don't remember I'm glade to give you a hand and with some changes


> Kishimoto won't have put *Iruka*'s sentiments there if it didn't mean anything. Kishimoto wanted us to know that *OLD Hiruzen *was above *Hahirama* and *Tobirama*.



and that why Kishi make him defeat both of them 
you see I just changed the names and it clearly fit. lol 
Don't use double standards with me please. 


> Base Minato may be a Hokage, but he's certainly not in the Hokage tier given that *Kishimoto felt the need to indicate that he was surpassed by SM Naruto*.



As I told you Kishi felt Hashi needs SM as well, because he's weaker than OLD Hiruzen. It's
the same  

EDIT:- why would Kishi give SM to Hashi if he weren't weaker than Old Hiruzen as stated before and as we saw it before? 

Oh, and this excuse is still lame, because EVEN IF I agreed with you, it's only ONE jutsu how is that make them stronger. lol 
Kishi felt that they can't do it without Minato? lol
Minato arrived before all of them, and IN BASE he already dealt with TBB ALONE. lol 
but the others needed Minato to deal with the same TBB. that's kinda funny. lol

EDIT 2: lol


> all the (first three) Hokage's full powers are unknown. Minato's was the most known, and we got a clear cut statement saying he was surpassed. Hence he got his power up to compete beyond his normal level without KCM.


Can you tell me what Minato's elements are? Or what he had learned from jman? 
or what his clan's ability? the other sealing jutsu he learned fro Kushina? or the jutsus he has created? (as stated in the DB3)



> Base Minato may be a Hokage, but he's certainly not in the Hokage tier given that Kishimoto felt the need to indicate that he was surpassed by SM Naruto.



LOL, So Kishi said he's a Hokage because he's not a HOKAGE TIER. you already know that BULLSHIT, don't you?
when Kishi stated that they are the strongest he did not exclude Minato. lol
you can say Base Minato > Tobirama and old Hiruzen as every one but you knows, and kishi only want minato
to be the strongest because of that he gave him RM? 

oh, you may start to prove how old Hiruzen or Tobirama are stronger than him any time you want.

and the same as your statement, Kishi wont have put Anko and Hiruzen's statement if it means nothing. he want us to believe 
Minato > old Hiruzen. (who by the way defeated Hashirama and Tobirama together) and he want us to believe that 10 years younger Hiruzen
is stronger than Hashi, Tobirama and oro. But 12 years younger Hiruzen was still < Minato. 

You may start to explain that as well.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 2, 2013)

Your analogies don't make sense. It doesn't matter if Kishi gave Hashirama SM, for instance.

What matters is that after we got a canon statement saying that Minato was surpassed by SM Naruto. He got a power up (KCM) to fight foes above SM Naruto's level. SM for Hashirama makes no difference as no-body surpassed Hashirama; unlike the case with Minato. 

The only Minato that falls under the Hokage tier power is KCM Minato. Seeing as only in that form can he apparently compete with his legendary predecessors.


----------



## Trojan (Jun 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Your analogies don't make sense. It doesn't matter if Kishi gave Hashirama SM, for instance.
> 
> What matters is that after we got a canon statement saying that Minato was surpassed by SM Naruto. He got a power up (KCM) to fight foes above SM Naruto's level. SM for Hashirama makes no difference as no-body surpassed Hashirama; unlike the case with Minato.
> 
> The only Minato that falls under the Hokage tier power is KCM Minato. Seeing as only in that form can he apparently compete with his legendary predecessors.



- How so? it's your logic after all. and YES, IT DOES MATTER IF KISHI GAVE HASHI SM, BECAUSE
HE NEEDS IT TO WORK ALONGSIDE OLD HIRUZEN AND TOBIRAMA. otherwise why would
he gave it to him? 

- You know that bullshit right? who told you no one surpassed Hashi? are you taking your words back? or do you want now to say that Kishi had put Iruka's statement because it does not mean anything?  are you not the one who said


> Kishimoto won't have put Fukasaku's sentiments there *if it didn't mean anything*. Kishimoto wanted us to know that SM Naruto was above Minato and Jman.



or are you trying to say what Iruka said is not canon? Or perhaps Hiruzen defeating Hashi & Tobirama is not canon? 
because Hashi got a power up "SM" to fight foes above old Hiruzen's level as well. 

so if we changed the names, that mean Kishi will put statement because it meant nothing?
you're bias, that's the only explanation.  


> Kishimoto won't have put Iruka's sentiments there if it didn't mean anything. Kishimoto wanted us to know that OLD Hiruzen was above Hahirama and Tobirama.





> The only Minato that falls under the Hokage tier power is KCM Minato. Seeing as only in that form can he apparently compete with his legendary predecessors.


LOL more bullshit. Start to prove how Tobirama is stronger than base Minato by feat or hype, 
and to prove that your are bias. 

A tail swing from Thin Juubi got smacked by an empty fist of a Hinata with just a fraction of the Kyuubi's power.
A tail swing from Thin Juubi got smacked by an empty fist of a Hinata with just a fraction of the Kyuubi's power.



> Jiraiya: Aw come on, everybody pales in comparison to the fourth lord. As a shinobi his capacity was unparalleled, a true one-of-a kind. He was overflowing with talent for jutsu and intelligence....He was socially popular...And well, he was quite a looker, just like me.




what do you think kishi want us to know by these? 
or did he put a statements that means nothing this time as well because it supports Minato.  
of course if we changed the name "Minato" with "Hashirama" then that means they mean mean everything, because it's for Hashi, right? 

you can't even proof that Hashi is stronger than old Hiruzen by statements so you started to ignore that and you started to take your own words back because it's Hashi. LOL

which still means OLD Hiruzen > Hashirama AND Tobirama.


----------



## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 2, 2013)

Don't waste your time defending Minato. Most people understand that, without KCM, Minato was one of the strongest and deadliest shinobi that ever walked the Narutoverse.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jun 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What matters is that after we got a canon statement saying that Minato was surpassed by SM Naruto.



Just like we got a canon statement that Minato's unsurpassable. Just like we got a canon statement that Itachi's invincible. 

 

Context matters in this manga and you fail to realize that. Not every statement is to be taken at face value.



> Seeing as only in that form can he apparently compete with his legendary predecessors.



Just like Madara needed the rinnegan to stand up to Naruto and Gaara, right?  

Minato's facing the Juubi. He's going to use whatever extra power he has. This isn't like Kishi's just throwing Minato a bone by giving him a random power-up that was never even foreshadowed. Minato sealed part of Kurama's chakra inside himself and thus it was speculated he could likely use the power if he was to ever be resurrected and as most of us thought, he can. Tobirama and Hiruzen not powering up simply means they have no mode to power up to like Minato and Hashirama do. It doesn't mean neither are unable to stand next to the other Hokages without those respective power-ups. 

It's clear from your posts that you see only what you want to see and fail to see the context within certain elements in this manga and that's the flaw in your entire argument.



Godaime Kazekage said:


> Don't waste your time defending Minato. Most people understand that without KCM, Minato was still one of the strongest and deadliest shinobi that ever walked the Narutoverse.



And this.


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## Ezekial (Jun 3, 2013)

Obito and Naruto above Madara?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 3, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Just like we got a canon statement that Minato's unsurpassable. Just like we got a canon statement that Itachi's invincible.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Differentiate between context and hype. A lot of the things you confused i.e. the Minato/Itachi hyperboles. Sometimes the face value of the statements are crystal clear: like SM Naruto surpassing Minato and Jiraiya. It cannot get any clearer than that. 

Further differentiate between power and capability. SM Naruto has more power than Minato, pre KCM, it was already said. Whether or not he's capable of fighting foes that Minato's unique fighting style allows him to fight, is another topic altogether. As far as power goes, its more or less you arguing against a very clear statement.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jun 3, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Differentiate between context and hype. A lot of the things you confused i.e. the Minato/Itachi hyperboles. Sometimes the face value of the statements are crystal clear: like SM Naruto surpassing Minato and Jiraiya. It cannot get any clearer than that.



Yes because we know how well Fukasaku knew Minato or if he even knew him at all (in person I mean).  We know Fukasku knows just how powerful Minato is. 

Oh wait.... Nothing is as clear as you think it is. Like I said, his statement holds as much weight as Ei and Zetsu's statement. Context my friend.



> Further differentiate between power and capability. SM Naruto has more power than Minato, pre KCM, it was already said. Whether or not he's capable of fighting foes that Minato's unique fighting style allows him to fight, is another topic altogether. As far as power goes, its more or less you arguing against a very clear statement.



*Sigh* I'm arguing with someone who's trying to relate raw power with means of surpassing in overall ability. I should just quit right now. 

When did SM Naruto having more raw power than Minato ever come into question? Of course SM Naruto has more raw power than Minato. Does that mean he's a stronger overall shinobi? No. Sakura has more raw power than Minato and she's far inferior to him. 

You clearly don't have a firm grasp of what the term surpass means and thus continuing this argument is futile. 

Peace.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 3, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Yes because we know how well Fukasaku knew Minato or if he even knew him at all (in person I mean).  We know Fukasku knows just how powerful Minato is.
> 
> Oh wait.... Nothing is as clear as you think it is. Like I said, his statement holds as much weight as Ei and Zetsu's statement. Context my friend.



I think you're grasping straws. Kishimoto won't have made Fukasaku say that if it meant nothing. Certainly Fukasaku knows Minato well enough to say he's been surpassed; he certainly knew Jiraiya well enough to say that.



> *Sigh* I'm arguing with someone who's trying to relate raw power with means of surpassing in overall ability. I should just quit right now.
> 
> When did SM Naruto having more raw power than Minato ever come into question? Of course SM Naruto has more raw power than Minato. Does that mean he's a stronger overall shinobi? No. Sakura has more raw power than Minato and she's far inferior to him.
> 
> ...



Well, if you're going to try to say "but Minato can do this, so he's stronger than SM Naruto", then of course you're going to have to bring raw power to show that he's not limited by that.

Perhaps I ought to have said "Minato's fighting style and unique arsenal"- however people tend to jump whenever Minato being surpassed tends to be mentioned. 

You're right, the argument is futile. But not for the reasons you outlined. The reason is: the Fukasaku statement was clear. The context was very clear that Naruto surpassed Minato.

It is your choice it you want to believe it. You can choose not to believe it, though that'd just mean you'd be wrong when preaching it.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jun 3, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I think you're grasping straws. Kishimoto won't have made Fukasaku say that if it meant nothing. Certainly Fukasaku knows Minato well enough to say he's been surpassed; he certainly knew Jiraiya well enough to say that.



I'll wait for the scans showing Fukasaku knew just how powerful Minato was. 



> Well, if you're going to try to say "but Minato can do this, so he's stronger than SM Naruto", then of course you're going to have to bring raw power to show that he's not limited by that.
> 
> Perhaps I ought to have said "Minato's fighting style and unique arsenal"- however people tend to jump whenever Minato being surpassed tends to be mentioned.
> 
> ...



Just like you'd be wrong for saying Minato's surpassable and Itachi isn't invincible.  We can all take ambiguous statements and try and push them off as facts. 

Anyway, that was indeed my last post in this argument. Just wanted to get that out of the way.


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## Eliyua23 (Jun 3, 2013)

I got an updated Tier List 

(Rikudo Level)

Rikudo Sennin
Juubi


(GOS)

Edo Madara 
Rinnegan Obito
Hashirama
Minato
BM Naruto
Kabuto(Full Power)

Legendary


Tobirama
Orochimaru(War Arc)
EMS Madara
Prime Hiruzen
Kushina
Mito
Edo Itachi 
KCM Naruto
Edo Nagato
Obito(Sharingan)
Danzo(Koto)


Beyond Kage 

Danzo(No Koto)
Orochimaru(Pt 1)
Gaara(Desert)
Kakashi(Kyuubi Chakra)
Pain
SM Naruto
MS Sasuke
Jiriyia
Killer Bee
Sick Itachi 
Tsunade 
Onoki
Sakura
Prime Hanzo

Kage 

Old Hiruzen
Gaara
Raikage
Sandaime Raikage
Muu
Trollkage
4th Kazekage
Kin/Gin


Low Kage

Konan
Mei
Sasori
Gai
Kisame
Hanzo(War Arc)
Mifune
Hebi Sasuke
FRS Naruto

 (Elite Jounin)

Deidara
Kakuzu
Darui
Shikamaru(Preperation)
Butterfly Chouji
Dan
Hiashi
Neji
Kimmimaro
Chiyo
Ino(Support)
Kankuro
Suigestu


(Jounin)

Hidan
Asuma
Ino-Shika-Chouza
Zetsu
Ao
Temari
Zabuza
Juugo


(Low Jounin)

Hinata
Kiba
Lee 

Reposted Due To Spoilers


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## Turrin (Jun 3, 2013)

*Tier 0*
1. Rikudo
2. Juubi Final Form
3. Madara w/ Juubi
4. Obito w/ Juubi

*Basically those who have the God like raw power of Juubi under their command

*Tier 1*
1. Edo Madara
2. Hashirama
3. EMS Madara w/ Kyuubi

*Those who have come closest to recreating the God like Raw Power of the Juubi w/o actually having it

*Tier 2*
1. Edo Minato
2. Orochimaru
3. Rinnegan Obito w/ 6 Paths
4. Kabuto
5. BM Naruto
6. Mito (Hype)

*Those who can potentially take on the God Like Powers of Tier 1 to Tier 2 characters if given enough Prep-time. For example:

Edo Minato - prep to spread out FTG markers and give out Kyuubi chakra to various shinobi
Orochimaru - prep for Edo Tensei
Obito - prep for converting GM to Juubi
Kabuto - prep for Edo Tensei
BM Naruto - prep to spread around chakra
Mito - 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Mito is more theoretical, but between being special among the Uzamaki and Kyuubi Jin she should have a massive chakra supply. On top of that she can use the Yin Seal, which means storing this massive chakra supply over the course of years. Than she has some Fuuinjutsu she used to seal Kurama. So that eventually after years of storing chakra in the Yin seal there would come a point where she'd have enough chakra in the Yin Seal where when released her chakra chains and Fuuinjutsu would be strong enough to perhaps defeat something like Juubi.




Anyway while these guys can compete with tier above them to a certain degree, it doesn't seem right for them to be on those tiers due to the requirement of Prep time or even outright aid of others to facilitate their full power. Though at the same time it does not seem right to not account for this potential of theirs, hence the placement above Tier 3. 

*Tier 3*
1. Minato
2. MS Obito
3. Edo Nagato 
4. Edo Itachi
5. Kushina
6. KCM Naruto 
7. EMS Sasuke
8. Nagato w/ 6 Paths
9. Gin & Kin
10.  Danzo

*Basically the highest tier a shinobi can get to w/o having a God like powers or ultra hax'd out prep abilities that can allow someone to contend with the God like powers

*Tier 4*
1. Prime Hanzo (hype)
2. White Fang (hype)
3. Killer B
4. Onoki
5. SM Naruto
6.  MS Sasuke
7. Sick Itachi 
8. Jiraiya 
9. Kakashi
10. Tsunade
11. Sandaime Raikage
12. Mu
13. Nindaime Mizukage
14. Yondaime Raikage
15. Yagura (Perfect Jin hype) 
16. Uchiha Shisui (Koto Hype)
17. Uchha Izuna (General MS hype)
18.  Gai (8th Gate Hype)

*Extremely strong Kages Class Fighters, but not thee best. Think Characters that could qualify for the position of Kage even in the stronger Villages like Konoha, Iwa, and Cloud

*Tier 5*
1. Kisame 
2. Gaara
3. Yugito (Instant Nibi Transformation)
4. Hyuuga Haishi
5. Sasori
6. Sandaime Kazekage (hype)
7. Yondaime Kazekage
8. Mei
9. Hebi Sasuke
10. Base Naruto
11. Kakuzu
12. Deidara
13. Darui
14. BM Choji
15. Mifune
16. Konan
17. Chiyo

*Basically Characters that are somewhere around the basic level one needs to reach to be Kage Class. Basically think of character that could qualify for the position of Kage in weaker villages like Mist & Sand, or characters who could qualify for the position of leader in some of the stronger none big 5 Villages, like Ame for instance. 

*Tier 6*
1. Yamato
2. Hidan
3. Zabuza
4. Zetsu (Thee Original) 
5. Dan (Hype)
6. Edo Kimi
7. Neji
8. Suigetsu
9. Juugo
10. Asuma
11. Kurenai
12. Sai 
13. Shikkamaru
14. Shikaku 
15. Ino
16. Inoichi
17. Choza
18. Temari
19. Chojiro
20. Fu
21. Torune

*Basically Characters that are noteworthy or good examples of the rank of Jonin. These characters are usually capable of being the right hand man/woman of most Kages or Village leaders. Some of these characters might even be capable of achieving the title of Village Leader themselves, though in their case it would be one of the weaker non-big 5 villages, for example something like Hidden Hot Springs.


As for the rest I don't feel like doing them at this time, so that's it for now. Tell me your thoughts.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sometimes the face value of the statements are crystal clear: like SM Naruto surpassing Minato and Jiraiya. It cannot get any clearer than that.


The statement being clear, it's anything but, & every translator I have ever talked to on the boards agrees. The reason the statement is not clear, Munboy, is because Fusaku never even said SM Naruto surpassed Minato & J-man, rather he said that Naruto surpassed his "predecessors". The idea that Naruto surpassed Minato & J-man is just a hypothesis fans created at that time for who Naruto's "predecessors" were . This hypothesis even at the time was silly to me, considering if Minato's shadow appearing means Naruto surpassed him, we'd have to accept that Base Naruto after mastering just Fuuton-Rasegan (not even 50% Fuuton-Rasenshuriken), had already surpassed Minato, since the shadow had already appeared at that point. So already people saying the Shadows meant he surpassed Minato, to me had to effectively argue Base Naruto w/o even 50% FRS > Minato, which was ludicrous back than and after Minato's new feats since the Pain Arc, it's become such a silly assertion that it's tan amount to saying Tenten surpassed Jiraiya or some other such nonsense.

The author has been kind enough to give us direct means of comparison between the two characters;

Minato with Kushina's help beat Kurama after just fight another very powerful Shinobi and while at the same time protecting and sealing part of it into an infant. On the other hand Naruto with Kushina's help could barely extract some chakra, not even defeat 50% Kurama. This Naruto btw was at least slightly stronger than Pain Arc Naruto and leagues beyond Mid Wind Training Naruto who first received Minato's shadow, and yet he still under performed to Minato.

Another Comparison can be seen via Raikage. Minato countered and blitz Raikage instantly and with utter ease. Naruto only after fight a prolonged battle managed to finally do the same. This Naruto btw was much stronger than Pain Arc Naruto and laughably stronger than Mid Wind Training Naruto who first received Minato's shadow, and yet again he still under performed to Minato 

Yet another comparison is given to us Via Obito's Kamui. Minato counter Obito's Kamui in 1 chapter of fighting him. Naruto required Kakashi's help to counter it over the course of several chapters. This Naruto btw was much stronger than Pain Arc Naruto and laughably stronger than Mid Wind Training Naruto who first received Minato's shadow, and yet again he still under performed to Minato. 

If Pain Arc Naruto let alone Mid Wind Training Naruto who first received Minato's shadow needs power ups and in some instance help to accomplish Minato's feats and we are shown this time and time again, than why would anyone put stock into the hypothesis that Minato's shadow appearing equals Minato being the one Naruto is surpassing? It really makes no sense to me.

A much more rational idea would be to look for another more plausible hypothesis, like the idea that "predecessors" refers to those who studied Senjutsu before Naruto, who were called Naruto's "predecessors" by the Toads earlier in that arc. In that case Naruto's feats do excel his "predecessors" since he did manage to take Toad Style Senjutsu further than any of them. So this hypothesis makes sense completely, unlike the other one which makes no sense.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Jun 3, 2013)

> 1. Rikudo
> 2. Juubi Final Form
> 3. Madara w/ Juubi
> 4. Obito w/ Juubi
> ...



Agree with this 



> *Tier 1*
> 1. Edo Madara
> 2. Hashirama
> 3. EMS Madara w/ Kyuubi
> ...



I would combine this tier all except for Orochimaru and Mito , Kabuto w prep has Defintely shown he can contend with even Rinnegan Madara when prepped at full power, Rinnegan Obito has shown he can go blow for blow with BM Naruto, Killer Bee, Gai, Kakashi, BM Naruto mainly for his support feats should be considered on that tier, and Minato has shown he's close in power with Hashirama, really only Orochimaru and Mito should be on tier 2 , the others on tier 2 could contents with tier 1 based on what has been shown.



> *Tier 3*
> 1. Minato
> 2. MS Obito
> 3. Edo Nagato
> ...



Really no complaints here ther than Kin/Gin are too high and I would consider dropping Mito and Orochomaru into this tier, 

*Tier 4*


> 1. Prime Hanzo (hype)
> 2. White Fang (hype)
> 3. Killer B
> 4. Onoki
> ...



1-10 I agree with , 11-18 should either have their own tier I consider them Normal Kage level shinobi Defintely not on a tier with the likes of Itachi, SM Naruto, Onoki, Killer Bee those guys have more Hax abilites them 11-18 and just overall Portryal , Also Where's Sakura lol


> *Tier 5*
> 1. Kisame
> 2. Gaara
> 3. Yugito (Instant Nibi Transformation)
> ...



I would create a separate tier for 11-18 in tier 4 and move Gaara into that tier , I think he's stronger than Hebi Sasuke and Diedara at this point , Deidara is a tier below Hebi Sasuke and is really on the elite jounin tier moreso than a Kage level fighter I'd say the same for Darui



> *Tier 6*
> 1. Yamato
> 2. Hidan
> 3. Zabuza
> ...




No Problems with this 





The statement being clear, it's anything but, & every translator I have ever talked to on the boards agrees. The reason the statement is not clear, Munboy, is because Fusaku never even said SM Naruto surpassed Minato & J-man, rather he said that Naruto surpassed his "predecessors". The idea that Naruto surpassed Minato & J-man is just a hypothesis fans created at that time for who Naruto's "predecessors" were . This hypothesis even at the time was silly to me, considering if Minato's shadow appearing means Naruto surpassed him, we'd have to accept that Base Naruto after mastering just Fuuton-Rasegan (not even 50% Fuuton-Rasenshuriken), had already surpassed Minato, since the shadow had already appeared at that point. So already people saying the Shadows meant he surpassed Minato, to me had to effectively argue Base Naruto w/o even 50% FRS > Minato, which was ludicrous back than and after Minato's new feats since the Pain Arc, it's become such a silly assertion that it's tan amount to saying Tenten surpassed Jiraiya or some other such nonsense.

The author has been kind enough to give us direct means of comparison between the two characters;

Minato with Kushina's help beat Kurama after just fight another very powerful Shinobi and while at the same time protecting and sealing part of it into an infant. On the other hand Naruto with Kushina's help could barely extract some chakra, not even defeat 50% Kurama. This Naruto btw was at least slightly stronger than Pain Arc Naruto and leagues beyond Mid Wind Training Naruto who first received Minato's shadow, and yet he still under performed to Minato.

Another Comparison can be seen via Raikage. Minato countered and blitz Raikage instantly and with utter ease. Naruto only after fight a prolonged battle managed to finally do the same. This Naruto btw was much stronger than Pain Arc Naruto and laughably stronger than Mid Wind Training Naruto who first received Minato's shadow, and yet again he still under performed to Minato 

Yet another comparison is given to us Via Obito's Kamui. Minato counter Obito's Kamui in 1 chapter of fighting him. Naruto required Kakashi's help to counter it over the course of several chapters. This Naruto btw was much stronger than Pain Arc Naruto and laughably stronger than Mid Wind Training Naruto who first received Minato's shadow, and yet again he still under performed to Minato. 

If Pain Arc Naruto let alone Mid Wind Training Naruto who first received Minato's shadow needs power ups and in some instance help to accomplish Minato's feats and we are shown this time and time again, than why would anyone put stock into the hypothesis that Minato's shadow appearing equals Minato being the one Naruto is surpassing? It really makes no sense to me.

A much more rational idea would be to look for another more plausible hypothesis, like the idea that "predecessors" refers to those who studied Senjutsu before Naruto, who were called Naruto's "predecessors" by the Toads earlier in that arc. In that case Naruto's feats do excel his "predecessors" since he did manage to take Toad Style Senjutsu further than any of them. So this hypothesis makes sense completely, unlike the other one which makes no sense.[/QUOTE]


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 3, 2013)

Yeah, tiering/ranking discussion was allowed in Konoha Library as part of this project. If there's no one running or working on it, then there is no reason for the discussion.

If you want to restart the project, let me know.


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