# 3 Tomoe Itachi vs Mei



## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 27, 2016)

Location : Forest of Death
Distance : 10 meters
Knowledge : Mei knows Itachi is a powerful Uchiha, and Itachi knows she is the Mizukage and has yoton Kekkei Genkai. No exclusive knowledge for both.
Mindset : IC
Restrictions : MS for Itachi

Itachi's illness will not hinder his performance.

Who wins  ?


Bonus round : Replace Itachi with 3 tomoe Kakashi


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## Itachі (Feb 27, 2016)

Imo Sick Itachi could defeat her, Healthy Itachi has a slightly better chance. He catches her in Genjutsu and kills her, her handseals are fast but she's shown nothing that has surpassed Itachi's handseals. He overwhelms her without much trouble.


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## Saru (Feb 27, 2016)

At the start of the match, Itachi points his finger at Mei. 

Itachi ends the match a few moments later via kunai. 

The starting distance ensures that Mei will have no time to counter the above strategy if Itachi opens with some kind of distraction (Goukakyuu, genjutsu, shurikenjutsu, etc.) and uses it to get behind her. Mei would need a 50+ meter head start to cloak the battlefield in a shroud of Hidden Mist and then launch long-range ninjutsu. Even then, both Itachi's movement speed and jutsu execution speed are superior to Mei's, so he's going to be able to apply enough pressure to prevent Mei from projecting Hidden Mist from the get-go. Itachi wins with low difficulty.​


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## ImSerious (Feb 27, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> =Knowledge : Mei knows Itachi is a powerful Uchiha, and Itachi knows she is the Mizukage and has yoton Kekkei Genkai. No exclusive knowledge for both.


Really bro? You're not even gonna give her knowledge on genjutsu?

Might aswell change the title to ''Can Mei break out of genjutsu before Itachi can slit her throat from 10m''.


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## Itachі (Feb 27, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Really bro? You're not even gonna give her knowledge on genjutsu?
> 
> Might aswell change the title to ''Can Mei break out of genjutsu before Itachi can slit her throat from 10m''.



Well, she has knowledge on Genjutsu since she knows that he's an Uchiha but she doesn't know how good he is at Genjutsu or how often he implements it in battle.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 27, 2016)

Itachi wins as Mei can't really do anything at this distance.


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## Tarot (Feb 27, 2016)

Saru said:


> At the start of the match, Itachi points his finger at Mei. ​


Itachi has to perform handseals to do finger genjutsu. Finger point GG isn't a thing.​


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## Itachі (Feb 27, 2016)

Death Arcana said:


> Itachi has to perform handseals to do finger genjutsu. Finger point GG isn't a thing.


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## Saru (Feb 27, 2016)

Death Arcana said:


> Itachi has to perform handseals to do finger genjutsu. Finger point GG isn't a thing.





As Itachi showed, it indeed a thing. If Itachi wants to add additional layers or strengthen the genjutsu, he has to form seals.



Whether or not Itachi has to form those seals in the real world or merely in the genjutsu is unclear, but regardless, Itachi was still able to fight Kakashi while doing so.
​


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## Tarot (Feb 27, 2016)

*Spoiler*: __


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## Itachі (Feb 27, 2016)

Death Arcana said:


> *Spoiler*: __



What? I showed you an instance of Itachi using Utakata without handseals, I don't know what that page has to do with anything.


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## Saru (Feb 27, 2016)

Death Arcana said:


> *Spoiler*: __




It's not clear that that hand seal was used for Finger Genjutsu, but hand seals(sss) implies multiple hand seals (hence the plural). Even if the hand seal was required, that *single* hand seal given Itachi's hand speed is not something that will play a factor in this match up.​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 27, 2016)

I don't buy utakata killing a kage at match start.  Non-sharingan genjutsu is going to be far weaker than Itachi's doujutsu genjutsu, and it's single target actively sustained genjutsu.  He would have to make her pass out, and again, yeah, he could do that with sharingan, but not with pointing a finger.  Or he'd have to make a clone so one of them could hold her in genjutsu while the other attacks, but again, that's not finger point good game.

That doesn't mean he won't or can't end the fight with other genjutsu.  CQC into eye contact is something he could do to her if it came to taijutsu.


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## Itachі (Feb 27, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> I don't buy utakata killing a kage at match start.  Non-sharingan genjutsu is going to be far weaker than Itachi's doujutsu genjutsu, and it's single target actively sustained genjutsu.  He would have to make her pass out, and again, yeah, he could do that with sharingan, but not with pointing a finger.  Or he'd have to make a clone so one of them could hold her in genjutsu while the other attacks, but again, that's not finger point good game.
> 
> That doesn't mean he won't or can't end the fight with other genjutsu.  CQC into eye contact is something he could do to her if it came to taijutsu.



Why would he have to make her pass out? He could make it subtle like it was for Naruto at the beginning of that usage of Genjutsu.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 27, 2016)

Itachі said:


> What? I showed you an instance of Itachi using Utakata without handseals, I don't know what that page has to do with anything.



Um, I think if you read before or later or during another fight, it's mentioned that once Itachi has already made the seals he can catch people in utakata.  So he did make seals for that genjutsu, he just hid them in his cloak before pointing.  Itachi has high handseal speed, so it's not like he can't do that.


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## Saru (Feb 27, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> I don't buy utakata killing a kage at match start.  Non-sharingan genjutsu is going to be far weaker than Itachi's doujutsu genjutsu, and it's single target actively sustained genjutsu.  He would have to make her pass out, and again, yeah, he could do that with sharingan, but not with pointing a finger.  Or he'd have to make a clone so one of them could hold her in genjutsu while the other attacks, but again, that's not finger point good game.
> 
> That doesn't mean he won't or can't end the fight with other genjutsu.  CQC into eye contact is something he could do to her if it came to taijutsu.




Except Itachi can add layers to and strengthen the genjutsu, and can also close the distance in the meantime. Do you think that Itachi is simply going to stand there after he places Mei (or any opponent) in genjutsu?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Wasn't Itachi fighting Kakashi while he was genjutsu GG'ing Naruto at the same time ?




Yep.

​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 27, 2016)

Wasn't Itachi fighting Kakashi while he was genjutsu GG'ing Naruto at the same time ?


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## Itachі (Feb 27, 2016)

Yes.



Sadness on Wheels said:


> Um, I think if you read before or later or during another fight, it's mentioned that once Itachi has already made the seals he can catch people in utakata.  So he did make seals for that genjutsu, he just hid them in his cloak before pointing.  Itachi has high handseal speed, so it's not like he can't do that.



Could you direct me to that?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 27, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Why would he have to make her pass out? He could make it subtle like it was for Naruto at the beginning of that usage of Genjutsu.



Utakata isn't a subtle genjutsu.  It paralyzed Naruto.  You can argue he has a finger pointing genjutsu that is, but he hasn't shown it.  The subtle illusion he used on Bee was sharingan, and if I'm correct, that's the only time he's shown casting it.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 27, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Wasn't Itachi fighting Kakashi while he was genjutsu GG'ing Naruto at the same time ?



No.  They were both standing there doing nothing until Sakura and Chiyo broke him out.  All the fighting was in Naruto's mind, because Itachi can warp the perception of time to some extent with most genjutsu.


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## Itachі (Feb 27, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Utakata isn't a subtle genjutsu.  It paralyzed Naruto.  You can argue he has a finger pointing genjutsu that is, but he hasn't shown it.  The subtle illusion he used on Bee was sharingan, and if I'm correct, that's the only time he's shown casting it.



But Naruto didn't know that he was in a Genjutsu until Itachi was fucking around with crows.



Finger Genjutsu is what Itachi wants it to be, do you think Itachi developed a technique that specifically makes Sasuke's face appear on the victim's face?

Naruto used Rasegan on what he thought was a Bunshin, saw all of his teammates downed, threw Kunai at Itachi and then he saw Itachi disperse into crows, that's when he thought he was in a Genjutsu.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 27, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> Could you direct me to that?



Uhh.  I believe it was when Naruto flashed back to the fight right before he encountered Itachi in the forest.  It shows Itachi doing seals before utakata.  I can't search myself right now.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 27, 2016)

Itachі said:


> But Naruto didn't know that he was in a Genjutsu until Itachi was fucking around with crows.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He was in a genjutsu the moment he looked at Itachi's hand.  He didn't realize it until way later, when Itachi made the illusion more overt.  But Naruto was paralyzed for all of it regardless.

And yeah, I do think that Itachi has a genjutsu that invokes fears or bad memories or insecurities.  That seems like a very useful genjutsu.


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## Itachі (Feb 27, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Uhh.  I believe it was when Naruto flashed back to the fight right before he encountered Itachi in the forest.  It shows Itachi doing seals before utakata.  I can't search myself right now.







Sadness on Wheels said:


> He was in a genjutsu the moment he looked at Itachi's hand.  He didn't realize it until way later, when Itachi made the illusion more overt.  But Naruto was paralyzed for all of it regardless.



Yes, but how does that help Mei? By subtle I'm talking about whether the victim can detect it or not, in that sense Itachi can make it as subtle as he wants.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 27, 2016)

Itachі said:


> What? I showed you an instance of Itachi using Utakata without handseals, I don't know what that page has to do with anything.





This is what that poster was showing with that scan.  That scan comes before your scan.


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## ARGUS (Feb 27, 2016)

Mei should win

 -- hidden mist to blind his vision. and Acid mist to burn him alive 

 -- large scale yotons and suitons would then seal the deal


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## Itachі (Feb 27, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> This is what that poster was showing with that scan.  That scan comes before your scan.



But Itachi made that handseal, had a conversation that spanned many pages with the other characters and then used the Genjutsu in the next chapter.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 27, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Yes, but how does that help Mei? By subtle I'm talking about whether the victim can detect it or not, in that sense Itachi can make it as subtle as he wants.



Even if Mei is in an illusion and doesn't know it, they're both having a staring contest until he puts her in a coma to finish her in real life, and he won't be able to do so with that level of genjutsu.  The subtle aspect didn't work on, or ultimately food Naruto.  We saw the climax of Utakata, when Itachi tells people to go to sleep.  It gets overt, and that won't be lost on her.  She could break out of it.  Any decent low jonin should be able to recognize and break out of that genjutsu.


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## Itachі (Feb 27, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Even if Mei is in an illusion and doesn't know it, they're both having a staring contest until he puts her in a coma to finish her in real life, and he won't be able to do so with that level of genjutsu.  The subtle aspect didn't work on, or ultimately food Naruto.  We saw the climax of Utakata, when Itachi tells people to go to sleep.  It gets overt, and that won't be lost on her.  She could break out of it.  Any decent low jonin should be able to recognize and break out of that genjutsu.



The subtle aspect did work on Naruto, he only clocked on when Itachi decided to make it obvious by flying in the air. Itachi doesn't have to make it overt though, I don't understand why he would make it overt with Mei. Itachi could just Shunshin over there and slit her throat while she's still in the Genjutsu, why would he do anything but that?


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## Saru (Feb 27, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> No.  They were both standing there doing nothing until Sakura and Chiyo broke him out.  All the fighting was in Naruto's mind, because Itachi can warp the perception of time to some extent with most genjutsu.





Sadness on Wheels said:


> Even if Mei is in an illusion and doesn't know it, they're both having a staring contest until he puts her in a coma to finish her in real life, and he won't be able to do so with that level of genjutsu.  The subtle aspect didn't work on, or ultimately food Naruto.  We saw the climax of Utakata, when Itachi tells people to go to sleep.  It gets overt, and that won't be lost on her.  She could break out of it.  Any decent low jonin should be able to recognize and break out of that genjutsu.




Itachi fought Kakashi _while_ Naruto was in the genjutsu. 

Finger Genjutsu is not Tsukuyomi.​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 27, 2016)

Itachі said:


> But Itachi made that handseal, had a conversation that spanned many pages with the other characters and then used the Genjutsu in the next chapter.



Itachi can cast utakata anytime after he's done his seals.  (according to the translations I read, you'd have to ask Rocky or F/R or whoever has the officials on hand)  That's the prep stage.  If he's fine with not using any other jutsu or just standing around for awhile until he gets to pointing.  That's fine.  If he actually wants to fight or use other jutsu, he'd have to cancel utakata though.  We saw this with Ino back in the exams.  She made the seals for shintenshin to ready it, and then held off on firing her soul until she was ready.  She had a long conversation with Sakura in the meantime.  But while holding the jutsu prepped, she dedicated herself to either firing the jutsu, or cancelling it.  ... at which point she'd have to do the seals again.


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## Itachі (Feb 27, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Itachi can cast utakata anytime after he's done his seals.  (according to the translations I read, you'd have to ask Rocky or F/R or whoever has the officials on hand)  That's the prep stage.  If he's fine with not using any other jutsu or just standing around for awhile until he gets to pointing.  That's fine.  If he actually wants to fight or use other jutsu, he'd have to cancel utakata though.  We saw this with Ino back in the exams.  She made the seals for shintenshin to ready it, and then held off on firing her soul until she was ready.  She had a long conversation with Sakura in the meantime.  But while holding the jutsu prepped, she dedicated herself to either firing the jutsu, or cancelling it.  ... at which point she'd have to do the seals again.



True, that makes more sense than Itachi making the seal for no reason.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 27, 2016)

Saru said:


> Itachi fought Kakashi _while_ Naruto was in the genjutsu.
> 
> Finger Genjutsu is not Tsukuyomi.​



When Naruto broke out of the genjutsu Kakashi hadn't started yet.


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## Itachі (Feb 27, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> When Naruto broke out of the genjutsu Kakashi hadn't started yet.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 27, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> No.  They were both standing there doing nothing until Sakura and Chiyo broke him out.  All the fighting was in Naruto's mind, because Itachi can warp the perception of time to some extent with most genjutsu.



Well it was a rhetorical question.

Because we saw that Itachi was multitasking.

directly into Madara's body


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 27, 2016)

The genjutsu was broken just prior to that.  It was broken just prior to the initial charge of Kakashi.


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## Itachі (Feb 27, 2016)

So you're saying Itachi can manipulate the victim's perception of time with Utakata?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 27, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> The genjutsu was broken just prior to that.  It was broken just prior to the initial charge of Kakashi.



Just as Naruto wakes up Kakashi is disengaging. So prior to that, he must have attacked Itachi.

I also don't think they just stood there and did nothing for a couple of seconds or maybe more, unless Itachi can alter the perception of time in non sharingan genjutsu as well(which he probably can to some extend).

edit : 

Also they were grouped together before Itachi used the genjutsu : directly into Madara's body
In the panel Naruto wakes up, Kakashi isn't there : directly into Madara's body


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 27, 2016)

Altering the perception of time is Itachi's specialty.  It's most pronounced with Tsukiyomi, but he seems to be able to do it to some extent with most of his perception based genjutsu.

I think what happened is that Kakashi said go, and Naruto didn't move.  So they slapped out Naruto.  Genjutsu broke, Kakashi and Itachi clashed, and then came back.  The reason Itachi was in a hurry up to make Naruto pass out was because the battle was about to start.  AKA he ran out of free time to screw with Naruto, and was going to get caught in the trap Chiyo mentioned about genjutsu and multiple opponents.  The one he said he can't avoid without the Tsukiyomi he couldn't use.


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## Itachі (Feb 27, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Altering the perception of time is Itachi's specialty.  It's most pronounced with Tsukiyomi, but he seems to be able to do it to some extent with most of his perception based genjutsu.
> 
> I think what happened is that Kakashi said go, and Naruto didn't move.  So they slapped out Naruto.  Genjutsu broke, Kakashi and Itachi clashed, and then came back.  The reason Itachi was in a hurry up to make Naruto pass out was because the battle was about to start.  AKA he ran out of free time to screw with Naruto, and was going to get caught in the trap Chiyo mentioned about genjutsu and multiple opponents.



Is there any evidence for him doing it with other Genjutsu? Pretty sure that Tsukuyomi is the only Genjutsu that can do it. Besides from maybe Izanami.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 27, 2016)

When he had long talks with Naruto and Sasuke, he used normal genjutsu.  Sasuke had a whole fight with Itachi and conversation in a couple of second in real time, as noted by Suigetsu when they walked up to him having missed everything.

Kakashi's clone went through an entire turning to paper and burning up sequence in the time it took Kakashi to come out of the hole and tell Naruto to rasengan him.  

Danzo mentions that Sasuke's genjutsu sucks, because Itachi could alter the length of time, but the Itachi Danzo knew didn't have Tsukiyomi yet, and there's no way Kakashi informed Danzo.


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## Itachі (Feb 27, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> When he had long talks with Naruto and Sasuke, he used normal genjutsu.  Sasuke had a whole fight with Itachi and conversation in a couple of second in real time, as noted by Suigetsu when they walked up to him having missed everything.
> 
> Kakashi's clone went through an entire turning to paper and burning up sequence in the time it took Kakashi to come out of the hole and tell Naruto to rasengan him.
> 
> Danzo mentions that Sasuke's genjutsu sucks, because Itachi could alter the length of time, but the Itachi Danzo knew didn't have Tsukiyomi yet, and there's no way Kakashi informed Danzo.



Was it stated that it was only a few seconds?

Doesn't seem like the Genjutsu was slow.

Itachi used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke during the Uchiha massacre.


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## Bringer (Feb 27, 2016)

Mei knows she's fighting an Uchiha. Hidden mist is coming out. Can you even cast genjutsu on a target you can't see?


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 27, 2016)

directly into Madara's body

 But Danzo knew about Tsukyomi.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 27, 2016)

Danzo wasn't there and he wouldn't have known that Itachi used Tsukiyomi.  Danzo didn't even know Itachi had Magekyo at that point.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 27, 2016)

That doesn't even make sense...


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## Itachі (Feb 27, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Danzo wasn't there and he wouldn't have known that Itachi used Tsukiyomi.  Danzo didn't even know Itachi had Magekyo at that point.



It's true that he wasn't there but there's nothing to suggest that he had absolutely no knowledge on Tsukuyomi. Especially since Itachi used it on Sasuke again and Tsunade healed him. Also, page that UchihaX28 posted.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 27, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Danzo wasn't there and he wouldn't have known that Itachi used Tsukiyomi.  Danzo didn't even know Itachi had Magekyo at that point.



 Doesn't matter. 

 He knew about Tsukyomi apparently, just like how he knew about Susano'o.


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## Saru (Feb 27, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> When he had long talks with Naruto




There is absolutely zero evidence to suggest that Itachi altered time in his conversation with Naruto (the one where he shoved a crow down his throat), and the amount of time that Naruto was in Finger Genjutsu was far, _far_ too long for Kakashi and Itachi to have just stood there twiddling their thumbs.



> and Sasuke




Which conversations are you talking about? Because this...




> Sasuke had a whole fight with Itachi and conversation in a couple of second in real time, as noted by Suigetsu when they walked up to him having missed everything.​





... Was not genjutsu. That was a Karasu Bunshin that Sasuke faced, and the fight happened in real time.


*Spoiler*: __ 










> Kakashi's clone went through an entire turning to paper and burning up sequence in the time it took Kakashi to come out of the hole and tell Naruto to rasengan him.




Which is nowhere _near_ the amount of time that Naruto was in Itachi's Finger Genjutsu (an _entire chapter_).




> Danzo mentions that Sasuke's genjutsu sucks, because Itachi could alter the length of time, but the Itachi Danzo knew didn't have Tsukiyomi yet, and there's no way Kakashi informed Danzo.




Tsukuyomi is precisely what Danzo was referring to. Ninja'd by UchihaX28. It makes no less sense than C knowing about Amaterasu.​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 28, 2016)

> There is absolutely zero evidence to suggest that Itachi altered time in his conversation with Naruto (the one where he shoved a crow down his throat), and the amount of time that Naruto was in Finger Genjutsu was far, far too long for Kakashi and Itachi to have just stood there twiddling their thumbs.



Yeah, I don't think so.  Sakura can Chiyo are both standing next to Naruto at match start, and Itachi is at relatively his same position.  This is a fight where Kakashi said, "I'd love to tell you guys to stand back and let me fight alone, but this is Itachi, so I can't."  Given that, I don't think that Kakashi would engage Itachi in an extended bout without so much as wondering why no one went with him.  There also aren't any shuriken or jutsu used, or field damage, or battle damage, or anything to indicate time passing, and as we saw vs Itachi and the clone, Itachi is too good not get the upper hand in an extended taijutsu bout.  

There's nothing there to suggest that there was anymore than a false start, where Kakashi went back and grabbed Naruto, but we have a lot to suggest Itachi is pretty good at genjutsu.


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## Saru (Feb 28, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Yeah, I don't think so.  Sakura can Chiyo are both standing next to Naruto at match start, and Itachi is at relatively his same position.  This is a fight where Kakashi said, "I'd love to tell you guys to stand back and let me fight alone, but this is Itachi, so I can't."  Given that, I don't think that Kakashi would engage Itachi in an extended bout without so much as wondering why no one went with him.  *There also aren't any shuriken or jutsu used, or field damage, or battle damage, or anything to indicate time passing, and as we saw vs Itachi and the clone, Itachi is too good not get the upper hand in an extended taijutsu bout.*
> 
> *There's nothing there to suggest that there was anymore than a false start, where Kakashi went back and grabbed Naruto, but we have a lot to suggest Itachi is pretty good at genjutsu.*




Nothing? Do you not see the dust cloud extending from Kakashi's hand to Itachi (the scan is poor quality, so maybe you missed it)? Itachi _was_ too good for Kakashi in straight up CQC, because Kakashi _jumped back_. They were fighting the entire time that Naruto was in that genjutsu. It wasn't an "extended bout," it was a skirmish that resulted in Kakashi's tactical retreat. That's still more than enough time for Itachi to close in on Mei and many other ninja around her level. Obviously Kakashi and the others didn't notice that Naruto was in Itachi's genjutsu right away (because again, they didn't know that Itachi could use genjutsu through other means), and Sakura and Chiyo had to use Kai to release Naruto from the genjutsu so he didn't get killed, so it would've been moronic for Chiyo and Sakura to engage Itachi and leave Naruto completely defenseless. In fact, that's probably how they discovered that Naruto was in genjutsu initially. Sakura and Chiyo went to back Kakashi up, but then they stopped when they noticed that Naruto wasn't moving with them, so they turned around and used Kai. 

You're also arbitrarily assuming that Kakashi and Itachi fought one-on-one in CQC without using other means (Bunshin feints, shurikenjutsu, etc.). Not all of Itachi's attacks leave visible scars on the earth.​


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## Sadgoob (Feb 28, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> I don't buy utakata killing a kage at match start.



There's not really a reason it wouldn't though. Nothing in the manga or DB indicates Utakata is weaker or less deceptive than 3-tomoe Sharingan genjutsu.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 28, 2016)

You should understand that the time it takes for a skirmish to begin and end is less than the time it took for Naruto to wake up from the genjutsu and Kakashi to jump back, and that when my perception of, "The entire time Naruto was in genjutsu," doesn't actually mean what you're hoping it does when I think that Naruto was in genjutsu well before Kakashi jumped away.

Having read the Shoten Itachi and Shoten Kisame fights more than any human being on the planet, I did not miss the dust cloud.



> it would've been moronic for Chiyo and Sakura to engage Itachi and leave Naruto completely defenseless. In fact, that's probably what happened initially. Sakura and Chiyo went to back Kakashi up, but then they stopped when they noticed that Naruto wasn't moving with them.



If that were the case, how likely do you think they would be to rush back to _exactly the same spots_ they were initially standing in, before shifting slightly to touch Naruto?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 28, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> There's not really a reason it wouldn't though. Nothing in the manga or DB indicates Utakata is weaker or less deceptive than 3-tomoe Sharingan genjutsu.



What's being suggested is that Utakata is superior to 3-tomoe genjutsu, because you can freely feed someone complex paralytic genjutsu, change the genjutsu mid-way from subtle to overt, while still engaging with other ninja without actually putting them to sleep or winning the mental battle.

That's better than Tsuikyomi.


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## Saru (Feb 28, 2016)

> You should understand that the time it takes for a skirmish to begin and end is less than the time it took for Naruto to wake up from the genjutsu and Kakashi to jump back, and that when my perception of, "The entire time Naruto was in genjutsu," doesn't actually mean what you're hoping it does when I think that Naruto was in genjutsu well before Kakashi jumped away.
> 
> Having read the Shoten Itachi and Shoten Kisame fights more than any human being on the planet, I did not miss the dust cloud.




Kakashi had time to engage Itachi (remember, he was standing next to Naruto before the genjutsu started) and jump back. That's enough time for Itachi to get to Mei before she can muster a counter-offensive.

Tsukuyomi is an OHKO move, so Finger Genjutsu is no "better" than Tsukuyomi than Yomi Numa is better than Rasengan--both different ninjutsu with different levels of lethality and different areas of effect.

With Finger Genjutsu the opponent actually has a fighting chance to escape.​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 28, 2016)

It is if it works like you think it does.  Is it better to go blind and lose a substantial amount of chakra putting someone into a 72 hour illusion that feels like an eternity to both you and the opponent, and leaves you vulnerable for 3 seconds, or is it better to spend chakra that isn't even taxing to 30% of you that leaves them stuck in one spot and unaware of the world and leaves you vulnerable for 0 seconds?  

Oh and in the second one, you can attack immediately as it's cast, making it unnecessary for the genjutsu to even work most of the time.  But don't worry, you can cast and change the genjutsu as you see fit anyway, and it requires so little thought you can engage elite Jonin in battle as you're tweaking it.  In addition to that, they just have to look at your finger they don't think can cast genjutsu, instead of your magic eyes everyone knows not to look at.  Also, as was initially believed, it took no seals to activate.  Just like Tsukiyomi!

Tell me which one you'd rather have and use.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 28, 2016)

You find the second one effective up through the kage class as a defacto oneshot.


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## Saru (Feb 28, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> It is if it works like you think it does.  Is it better to go blind and lose a substantial amount of chakra putting someone into a 72 hour illusion that feels like an eternity to both you and the opponent, and leaves you vulnerable for 3 seconds, or is it better to spend chakra that isn't even taxing to 30% of you that leaves them stuck in one spot and unaware of the world and leaves you vulnerable for 0 seconds?




Obviously the latter. What is your point? Does it make more sense to use a bulldozer to kill a fly or a flyswatter? Not much of an argument there.




> Oh and in the second one, you can attack immediately as it's cast, making it unnecessary for the genjutsu to even work most of the time.  But don't worry, you can cast and change the genjutsu as you see fit anyway, and it requires so little thought you can engage elite Jonin in battle as you're tweaking it.  In addition to that, they just have to look at your finger they don't think can cast genjutsu, instead of your magic eyes everyone knows not to look at.  Also, as was initially believed, it took no seals to activate.




Now you're catching on. This is probably why people consider Itachi a solid Kage-level ninja. Although I would say that you're going overboard when you say that it's "unnecessary for the genjutsu to work most of the time." Unnecessary for what purpose? Defeating a Kage-level ninja? No, I would say that a distraction like FInger Genjutsu or Bunshin feint are necessary distractions if Itachi wants to defeat ninja of that caliber with his base arsenal.




> Just like Tsukiyomi!




No. Tsukuyomi is a one-shot move. Tsukuyomi can one-shot Yondaime Raikage. Finger Genjutsu + kunai cannot one-shot Yondaime Raikage. Tsukuyomi can one-shot KCM Naruto as per the latter's own admission. Finger Genjutsu + kunai cannot one-shot KCM Naruto because he's an elite ninja. Tsukuyomi can one-shot SM Kabuto without eye-shutters. Finger Genjutsu + Kunai cannot one-shot SM Kabuto without eye-shutters on.

I hope that makes the difference between Finger Genjutsu and Tsukuyomi more clear.




> You find the second one effective up through the kage class as a defacto oneshot.




My perception of what it takes for Itachi to defeat Kage-level ninja is not as one-dimensional as you'd like it to be.​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 28, 2016)

> Now you're catching on.



If I caught this I'd volunteer for quarantine.  



> No. Tsukuyomi is a one-shot move. Tsukuyomi can one-shot Yondaime Raikage. Finger Genjutsu + kunai cannot one-shot Yondaime Raikage. Tsukuyomi can one-shot KCM Naruto as per the latter's own admission. Finger Genjutsu + kunai cannot one-shot KCM Naruto because he's an elite ninja. Tsukuyomi can one-shot SM Kabuto without eye-shutters. Finger Genjutsu + Kunai cannot one-shot SM Kabuto without eye-shutters on.



Finger genjutsu + Ameterasu/Totsuga does it all better and easier.  You took his lowest genjutsu and raised it to a level where it invalidates every other move, up through his ultimate technique.  That should strike you as a little off.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 28, 2016)

Except Finger Genjutsu doesn't work against more resilient fighters who do have counters for Genjutsu. Even BoS Naruto managed to resist Finger Genjutsu initially, so using Genjutsu on that level for those who are resilient and have Genjutsu resistance won't really ensure they'll be susceptible for Amaterasu.

 Guys like Raikage and KCM Naruto could literally evade an Amaterasu combo even after being struck by Finger Genjutsu. Hell, guys like C and Kurenai can easily do the same (if they have knowledge) provided that they had speeds on par with KCM Naruto or V2 Raikage or some sort of defense to negate Amaterasu.


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## Saru (Feb 28, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Finger genjutsu + Ameterasu/Totsuga does it all better and easier.  You took his lowest genjutsu and raised it to a level where it invalidates every other move, up through his ultimate technique.  That should strike you as a little off.




... You just gave me a scenario where Itachi has used one of his Mangekyou techniques in tandem with another part of his arsenal. Tell me, how else do you think that Itachi would defeat these people (these people being Kage-level ninja) in battle? Do you think Itachi just has to make the decision to use Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi and he wins? Obviously not. Despite being Itachi's most powerful jutsu, Amaterasu, Totsuka, and Tsukuyomi can't necessarily be used in a reckless manner (ask Kage Summit Sasuke about how that goes) and still achieve victory. So no, Itachi having to use multiple genjutsu or aspects of his arsenal in combination with his most powerful jutsu in order to take down powerful ninja like Yondaime Raikage does not strike me as off in any manner.

No-knowledge genjutsu, GG is a thing. It always has been, and if you're just realizing it now, you're late to the party.​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 28, 2016)

> Tell me, how else do you think that Itachi would defeat these people (these people being Kage-level ninja) in battle?



You implied that he'd Tsukiyomi GG them when it's a 1000x harder to do that.



> No-knowledge genjutsu, GG is a thing. It always has been, and if you're just realizing it now, you're late to the party.



There are single target and multi-target genjutsu.

Hypnotic genjutsu and area of effect genjutsu.

There are paralytic genjutsu and subtle genjutsu.

There are genjutsu which allow you to craft an image, and there are genjutsu which invoke images from the target's psyche.  

There are genjutsu designed for torture, and genjutsu designed for interrogation.  

There are some genjutsu which are more flexible than others, and other which are entirely rigid.

All of these are different, and they each come with their own sets of advantages and drawbacks.  Genjutsu have various levels of strength and duration.  If you would like, I can make you a list of them what they are and how best to utilize them in any number of scenarios against single and multiple targets, with and without support.  You are taking a concept for creating openings and removing all the limits and nuance and variation and complexity to it in order to reduce it to a simple one liner, and looking down on me like a bleach teethed man in a shiny new sports car for not being on board with naive notions.  This is not to say I've been perfect in this thread or any others, but you haven't exactly been awe inspiring or enlightening enough to preach the Winchester Gospel.


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## Saru (Feb 28, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> You seemed to imply that he'd Tsukiyomi GG them when it's a 1000x harder to do that.




If you think that, you should reread my posts and look more closely at context of my rebuttal. I'm talking about the lethality of the Mangekyou, not its efficiency or convenience in combat.

So... Do you see the reasoning behind Finger Genjutsu being used as a _dangerous *tool*_ to defeat Kage-level ninja? And not something that can be conveniently shoved aside as not contributing to the battle's outcome? Naruto never broke the genjutsu, mind you, so its strength is difficult to quantify. 

This is oddly like the other thread with people saying that Asakujaku can't kill Kisame because Hirudora didn't kill Kisame, despite the fact that the one time Asakujaku was used, his opponent died, and the one time that Hirudora was used, Gai did not intend to kill (there was more to the argument, but this was the main reason for doubting Asakujaku's power in the first place, and it was a poor one). I will never understand some of the retrograde or A > B > C logic that people use to invalidate entire aspects of a person's arsenal.



> There are single target and multi-target genjutsu.
> 
> Hypnotic genjutsu and area of effect genjutsu.
> 
> ...




What do any of these things have to do with Utakata? 

We're not talking about all genjutsu here, we're talking about Utakata specifically. Genjutsu GG is indeed a concept that has been cemented throughout the manga multiple times, particularly with the Sharingan. The reason I brought that up is because you seemed to guffaw at the idea of Itachi being able to defeat Kage-level ninja with genjutsu and a kunai, when in fact Itachi defeated Orochimaru with Sharingan Genjutsu and a kunai in canon. Let me be more precise: no-knowledge genjutsu from _Itachi_ has proven to be GG.​


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## Dr. White (Feb 28, 2016)

Dat ITachi downplay


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## Nikushimi (Feb 28, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Location : Forest of Death
> Distance : 10 meters
> Knowledge : Mei knows Itachi is a powerful Uchiha, and Itachi knows she is the Mizukage and has yoton Kekkei Genkai. No exclusive knowledge for both.
> Mindset : IC
> ...



The environment makes acid mist a real danger for Itachi, since he lacks Susano'o for protection. But Mei can't really compete with him up-close, so as long as he can close the distance and lay into her with superior speed and clone game, coupled with Genjutsu, he can take this pretty quickly. The longer he takes, the higher the chance of acid mist being used (which would kill him under these circumstances).



> Bonus round : Replace Itachi with 3 tomoe Kakashi



Kakashi hasn't really got a good shot. He can give Mei a fight and similarly overwhelm her up-close, but he is far too direct and can't really replicate Itachi's quick clone substitution or his Genjutsu. She can probably hold her own long enough to fill the battlefield with her acid mist, and that's game over.


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## Icegaze (Feb 28, 2016)

Like all other non Sharingan genjutsu itachi must form seals to cast ukataka why won't he 

Sharingan genjutsu stands superior as there isn't any indication of it being used 

In any case Mei should win . Uchiha are well known for their eyes . She sees him and cast hidden mist 


From there she isn't loosing . She kills him

Kakashi however would beat Mei . He got better base tools than itachi simply put

As to itachi still fighting Kakashi while genjutsu naruto it's hardly impressive . Kurenai genjutsu itachi and kisame and was about to attack itachi till it got reversed 

Genjutsu users can obviously attack while they cast the genjutsu that's the point of it .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 28, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> I think what happened is that Kakashi said go, and Naruto didn't move.  So they slapped out Naruto.  Genjutsu broke, Kakashi and Itachi clashed, and then came back.



Like I said, Kakashi wasn't there when Naruto woke up. 4 of them were standing side by side just before Itachi used genjutsu and when the genjutsu is dispelled, it is just Chiyo and Sakura standing next to him, and Kakashi is shown disengaging. More than a couple of seconds must have elapsed in the real world. 



> The reason Itachi was in a hurry up to make Naruto pass out was because the battle was about to start.  AKA he ran out of free time to screw with Naruto, and was going to get caught in the trap Chiyo mentioned about genjutsu and multiple opponents.  The one he said he can't avoid without the Tsukiyomi he couldn't use.



If Itachi was in a hurry, I couldn't tell. Seems to me that it is your interpretatiion. 
Also if it was an actual danger, like if using the genjutsu would leave Itachi open, he surely wouldn't use the genjutsu when he is up against 4 people. Itachi of all people should know his limitations better.


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## Icegaze (Feb 28, 2016)

@grimm
I don't get the conversation here 

Of corse itachi can fight while using genjutsu 

Obito showed this , kurenai showed this 

The issue is u claiming it doesn't need seals when it does as shown from scans and logic . Why would itachi using a non Sharingan genjutsu not require hand seals . When everyone else does


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 28, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @grimm
> I don't get the conversation here
> 
> Of corse itachi can fight while using genjutsu
> ...



Itachi only used the chakra gathering sign before he used finger genjutsu. 

There is no evidence that he used anything else.


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## Icegaze (Feb 28, 2016)

So he needs to form a seal to gather chakra 
Same difference 

He isn't pointing then suddenly Mei is in genjutsu . Which is the point here 

His ukataka is also a painfully obvious genjutsu .


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## Arles Celes (Feb 28, 2016)

If Mei uses her mist jutsu it will be harder to catch her in a genjutsu. It won't be easy for Itachi to deal with Lava or Boil elements without Susano protection though maybe he could use shunshin to get out of the way. Or try to confuse Mei with bunshins. Though Itachi's chakra reserves are not so high as to allow him to spam bunshins casually so he would need to aim for a finishing move after confusing her with bunshins.

We do not know how resistant is Mei to genjutsu but given that Itachi could genjutsu Oro who has a 5 in genjutsu and knew about the sharingan powers when he faced Itachi...

Mei was easily the most useless kage during the Madara fight alongside Ei and did not show great intelligence feats nor guts.

I favor a  3T Itachi over Mei...though not by much.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 28, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> So he needs to form a seal to gather chakra
> Same difference


Its not the same, obviously.
 First and foremost, chakra gathering sign is not a threat inducing move. 
As you can see, when Itachi did that, Kakashi & Co stood there and kept talking to him.

Second off, Mei needs to launch a sequence of seals for all of her jutsu, no matter how you try to spin it, finger genjutsu will come before Mei does anything.



> He isn't pointing then suddenly Mei is in genjutsu . Which is the point here


It pretty much is, as we've seen in the manga.



> His ukataka is also a painfully obvious genjutsu .



It is what Itachi wants it to be.


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## Icegaze (Feb 28, 2016)

@grimm

Genjutsu isn't what the user actually wants it to be otherwise they would never make it obvious there is no benefit to making it obvious you are caught in genjutsu 

ukataka like other non Sharingan genjutsu uses hand seals , Mei hidden mist is 1 hand seal btw 

Kakashi using non Sharingan genjutsu also used the same seal itachi is shown using before ukataka 

Try not to forget that when overrating itachi 

genjutsu isn't what the user wants it to necessarily would be like Saying ninjutsu is what the user wants it to be 

The weaker the genjutsu it seems the more subtle it is and also the easier it is to break if u notice u are in it 



Eg: deidara seeing through Sasuke genjutsu is no indication he will break binding genjutsu in time

So far the only advantage shown in the manga from Sharingan genjutsu is it's harder to detect since no seals are required however . 90% of genjutsu used in the manga so far have been obvious . 

I don't think itachi let naruto know he was in genjutsu so much as the properties of the genjutsu was to put naruto to sleep . Which would be obvious . 

C genjutsu is obvious , kurenai genjutsu is obvious, Kakashi no Sharingan genjutsu is obvious . Why would itachi non Sharingan genjutsu not be . I mean we see the guy floating in the air . The second Mei sees that she is trying to break it 

Now itachi could already be on the move towards her , not doubting that but if one is going to claim itachi one shots via pointing at her . Then C and kurenai might as well 1 shot Mei

Their genjutsu is higher ranked for one and 2 a actually less obvious


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 28, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @grimm
> 
> Genjutsu isn't what the user actually wants it to be otherwise they would never make it obvious there is no benefit to making it obvious you are caught in genjutsu
> 
> ...



The only difference is the employement method and power boost Sharingan grants to the genjutsu. Genjutsu can be tailored as we've seen during the chuunin exam when Kabuto & co were caught in a genjutsu and had to go in the loop for a while before they understood they were caught in it.

Stop trying to place arbitrary limits to genjutsu.


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## Dr. White (Feb 28, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Ok
> 
> 3



He made Diedara feel true ejaculation sublimation


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 28, 2016)

Itachi wins via genjutsu and supplemental karasu bunshins and minor elemental techniques. A point worth noting here is that Kakashi was able to copy Zabuza's ninjutsu under the mist, if Mei is careless she'd be suffer the same scenario. Itachi has a water affinity and can probably mimic her jutsus at a faster rate than she can, much in the same manner Kakashi used a jutsu before Zabuza could finish. Mei's best options are using her lava release and forcing Itachi into a long-distance bought, up close she has no feats and Itachi is essentially on the same level as Kakashi.

Reasons why Itachi/Kakashi would have this in the bag:

- Mei is a long range fighter who uses ninjutsu
- Mei has no feats of CQC
- Mei could be tricked easily by either Kakashi or Itachi's fight style
- Itachi is a genjutsu user and can cast and use a support or offensive ninjutsu
- Itachi is a great deal like Kakashi in that he uses bunshin feints
- Itachi can use taijutsu weapons or his taijutsu prowess to take her out.
- Kakashi can use ninjutsu, raikiri, clone feint to take her out
- Kakashi can also use genjutsu (but it's not his forte)

I don't expect Mei to have any sort of CQC taijutsu prowess rivaling either Kakashi or Itachi, in general, most long range users do poorly up close, if you look at Gaara, he's essentially the prime example of the worse taijutsu user to hold a kage title. I'd say Mei isn't too far from him.

Mei isn't winning against these guys, they are too experienced and nothing to scale down her feats but she's solely one dimensional long-range ninjutsu user, i.e. Gaara, except she has lava. And her support ninjutsu of the mist is something both Kakashi/Itachi have likely copied and encountered before, since it was stated by Kakashi that they fought against the Mist for an extensive period of time.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 28, 2016)

Itachi's going to do to Mei what he did to Orochimaru and Deidara. Put her in genjutsu (with his finger, eyes, or crow) and then win. There's really no room for argument with this distance and knowledge. Itachi could also quickly blitz her with a clone feint though (like on Sage Kabuto.) She's way out of her league.


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## Icegaze (Feb 28, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The only difference is the employement method and power boost Sharingan grants to the genjutsu. Genjutsu can be tailored as we've seen during the chuunin exam when Kabuto & co were caught in a genjutsu and had to go in the loop for a while before they understood they were caught in it.
> 
> Stop trying to place arbitrary limits to genjutsu.



And you place a no limit fallacy on genjutsu 

Outside subtle genjutsu what stops Mei from inflicting herself pain to break out of it ?

Shikamaru a chunin could do that 

Kurenai who is far weaker than Mei could do that and avoid itachi follow up attack btw . 

Why is the assumption Mei can't know she is in genjutsu when for the most part outside a subtle genjutsu based on a flaw in how the ninja fights which gets exploited all genjutsu used has been obvious to the victim 

Oro knew , C , danzo , deidara , kurenai etc 

What logic is there for pain not breaking her out of his genjutsu ? Is itachi faster than her ability to bite her own lip ? Or is that a special kurenai tactic that oddly enough shikamaru a Genin seemed to know as well ?


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## uchihakil (Feb 29, 2016)

Mei gets defeated with genjutsu, you should have given her intel on all itachi's genjutsu


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 29, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> And you place a no limit fallacy on genjutsu
> 
> Outside subtle genjutsu what stops Mei from inflicting herself pain to break out of it ?
> 
> Shikamaru a chunin could do that


No one is using no limits fallacy here.
You are trying to place arbitrary limits with absolutely no evidence on your part.
In other words, you are talking out of your ass.

Re-read Itachi vs Naruto. 
Naruto had no control over his actions outside the genjutsu. From his perspective, he was running around and using rasengan, but in reality, he was actually standing there and doing nothing.

Also pain doesn't break every genjutsu, as we've seen how Hiruzen got his shit tossed around and still was under the influence of Hashirama's non sharingan genjutsu.



> Kurenai who is far weaker than Mei could do that and avoid itachi follow up attack btw .



Orochimaru, who is far stronger than Mei, couldn't do that when he was standing further away from Itachi compared to Kurenai.
Kurenai dispelled her own shitty genjutsu and Itachi was playing with her. Reading comprehension.



> Why is the assumption Mei can't know she is in genjutsu when for the most part outside a subtle genjutsu based on a flaw in how the ninja fights which gets exploited all genjutsu used has been obvious to the victim
> 
> Oro knew , C , danzo , deidara , kurenai etc



I have no idea what you are trying to say here.
There are different types of genjutsu, just like there are different ninjutsu, they have different applications and results.

What you are trying to do here is to compare chidori to Deidara's bombs or some other irrelevant shit.



> What logic is there for pain not breaking her out of his genjutsu ?



I explained it above.

If self inflicting pain was the mainstream for breaking genjutsu then Jiraiya would teach Naruto that and Naruto would bite his own lip and escape instead of trying to kai out of it and get traumatized in the process.

I also explained how Hiruzen got the living fuck beaten out of him and the genjutsu remained intract.

You seriously need to stop attempting to place limiters on genjutsu as you see fit. Its getting ridiculous.



> Is itachi faster than her ability to bite her own lip ?


Itachi is fast enough to cut Orochimaru's hand before Oro could dispell his genjutsu.
Unless you can prove that Mei is faster or has better genjutsu defense, your point is moot.



> Or is that a special kurenai tactic that oddly enough shikamaru a Genin seemed to know as well ?



I'd say it is one of the tactics that doesn't work all the time. 
But feel free to prove me wrong.


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## Icegaze (Feb 29, 2016)

your right grim 

Mei looses with no difficulty


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## Sadgoob (Feb 29, 2016)

Big thing too: Orochimaru stayed in that genjutsu, in my opinion. The DB and Itachi both suggest it. Just because we didn't see Orochimaru in the genjutsu nightmare again doesn't mean he wasn't still in there. We see him here while he's in it, but not shown, because it's from the real-world perspective.

Itachi cutting off Orochimaru's hand there made Orochimaru stay staked up in genjutsu, unable to attempt to kai out.


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## Empathy (Feb 29, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Big thing too: Orochimaru stayed in that genjutsu, in my opinion. The DB and Itachi both suggest it. Just because we didn't see Orochimaru in the genjutsu nightmare again doesn't mean he wasn't still in there. We see him here while he's in it, but not shown, because it's from the real-world perspective.
> 
> Itachi cutting off Orochimaru's hand there made Orochimaru stay staked up in genjutsu, unable to attempt to kai out.



We saw him immediately grab his arm in pain though, when previously he was paralyzed and struggled to move a muscle (to form the kai seal). We've seen physical sensations of pain wake people up from genjutsu before.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 29, 2016)

Empathy said:


> We saw him immediately grab his arm in pain though, when previously he was paralyzed and struggled to move a muscle (to form the kai seal). We've seen physical sensations of pain wake people up from genjutsu before.



Mmh, I don't think so. His hands were already  and had moved 9/10 the distance with the stakes.

We've seen physical sensations of pain wake people from _painless_ genjutsu. It wouldn't make sense for pain to snap someone out of pain-genjutsu.


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## Empathy (Feb 29, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Mmh, I don't think so. His hands were already . He could move, it was just painful and slower because of the stakes. After one hand was removed, he moved the remaining few inches. The stakes were still there though IMO.



If you look at the page again, Orochimaru's visibly shaking and struggling to move his arms to form the seal. There's lines around him in both panels of him very slowly trying to move. As soon as Itachi cuts of his hand, he's able to immediately clutch his arm and there's no lines around him indicating that he's having difficulty moving. I don't know what else I can tell you beyond that.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 29, 2016)

Dude, in one panel Orochimaru's hands go from at his sides to inches apart. With the stakes, in the genjutsu. So them going that last 1/10 distance in the next few panels does not indicate that the genjutsu was broken.

Orochimaru is caught here without lines. So the lack of lines don't indicate that the genjutsu lifted either. Orochimaru standing there with a lopped off hand letting a kid talk down to him like a bitch indicates the opposite, if anything.


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## Baroxio (Feb 29, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Mmh, I don't think so. His hands were already  and had moved 9/10 the distance with the stakes.
> 
> We've seen physical sensations of pain wake people from _painless_ genjutsu. It wouldn't make sense for pain to snap someone out of pain-genjutsu.


Tayuya's genjutsu seemed pretty painful when it starts melting off your flesh.


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## Empathy (Feb 29, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> We've seen physical sensations of pain wake people from _painless_ genjutsu. It wouldn't make sense for pain to snap someone out of pain-genjutsu.



Shikamaru was screaming in pain by feeling the sensation of his skin melting from his bones, [1] but quickly woke himself up by simply breaking his finger. [2]

*Edit:* Damn it, Baroxio.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 29, 2016)

Tayuya, Kurenai, Itachi. One is not like the others. You might as well compare Jirobo, Zabuza, and Hashirama in ninjutsu.

Also, is there a DB for Tayuya's genjutsu? She says the genjutsu restrains him.

It's possible Shikamaru was just freaking out from the image. And _likely_ when you look at his extremely late reaction in screaming, as his arm was already melted to the bone before he noticed and started screaming.


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## Empathy (Feb 29, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Dude, in one panel Orochimaru's hands go from at his sides to inches apart. With the stakes, in the genjutsu. So them going that last 1/10 distance in the next few panels does not indicate that the genjutsu was broken.
> 
> Orochimaru is caught here without lines. So the lack of lines don't indicate that the genjutsu lifted either.



You need to look again, because in the bottom panel of your second link, Orochimaru is shown with the lines around him. Just because he grabbed his arm in response to having his hand cut off instead of doing backflips afterwards doesn't support any of this 1/10 distance nonsense. His arms were held above his chest when he was shacking trying to form a seal, yet he quickly clutched his arm below his waist afterward with no lines shown around him (despite them being shown consistently the entire time he was in the genjutsu).



> Orochimaru standing there with a lopped off hand letting a kid talk down to him like a bitch indicates the opposite, if anything.



Orochimaru wasn't shown after Itachi began shit-talking. The flashback had ended at that point.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 29, 2016)

It's not "1/10 nonsense." The distance from his sides to the almost-kai was over quadruple the distance between his hands, and was covered in a single panel while he was in genjutsu.

So if anything's nonsense, it's the "Orchimaru grabbed his hand that was inches away in the next panel!" as an argument.

And yeah, at the bottom of the page there are lines, but not in the middle panel. So no lines don't indicate no genjutsu. There aren't any lines from when Sasuke uses it either, as far as I can tell anyway.


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## Empathy (Feb 29, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Tayuya, Kurenai, Itachi. One is not like the others. You might as well compare Jirobo, Zabuza, and Hashirama in ninjutsu.



Kurenai bit her lip to get out of Itachi's genjutsu, so it's not like it doesn't apply to him. The sensation of having your skin melting off is a lot more extreme than imagining stakes are in your body, whilst cutting off a hand is a lot less extreme than breaking a finger. 



> Also, is there a DB for Tayuya's genjutsu? She says the genjutsu restrains him. It's possible Shikamaru was just freaking out from the image. His extremely late reaction in screaming, as his arm was already melted to the bone before he noticed, makes me think that.



DB entry: [] This just seems like nit-picking to me. If the brain hallucinates its skin melting off, it would obviously send out pain signals if it feels like its skin is being separated from the bone. Hallucinations can cause pain.


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## Empathy (Feb 29, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> It's not "1/10 nonsense." The distance from his sides to the almost-kai was over quadruple the distance between his hands, and was covered in a single panel while he was in genjutsu.
> 
> So if anything's nonsense, it's the "Orchimaru grabbed his hand that was inches away in the next panel!" as an argument.



Every time Orochimaru tried to move, there's lines around him indicating that he's shacking and sluggishly attempting to move. When his hand was cut off, he had no trouble immediately grasping his arm below his waist and there's explicitly no lines drawn around him during the rapid movement, when just a second ago, he was slowly struggling to hold them in front of his chest.



> And yeah, at the bottom of the page there are lines, but not in the middle panel. So no lines don't indicate no genjutsu.



The middle panel is when Orochimaru first notices he's been trapped in genjutsu, so he hadn't begun struggling yet. 



> There aren't any lines from when Sasuke uses it either, as far as I can tell anyway.



Orochimaru is later shown with no stakes in him at all, [1] so I'd wager he broke it and Sasuke's probably wasn't as strong. It's not exactly relevant to Itachi's situation.


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## Dr. White (Feb 29, 2016)

Empathy said:


> You need to look again, because in the bottom panel of your second link, Orochimaru is shown with the lines around him. Just because he grabbed his arm in response to having his hand cut off instead of doing backflips afterwards doesn't support any of this 1/10 distance nonsense. His arms were held above his chest when he was shacking trying to form a seal, yet he quickly clutched his arm below his waist afterward with no lines shown around him (despite them being shown consistently the entire time he was in the genjutsu).


Nah dog. We never saw Oro struggle to much. He was moving to Kai, and his hands were inches from eachother. We see blood spurt indicating the cut, and then Oro (who's right hand is literally inches away from his arm)holds the bloody arm while still sweating and checkmated (based on him not fighting anymore after that point and fleeing akatsuki altogether).

Ignoring this is ignoring blatant portrayal.
The whole reason Itachi cut his hand of was to end Kai. If he wanted to injure him as his main motivation a head shot was more viable. He wanted to thwart jutsu and Kai attempts from that point on. It doesn't make sense for him to end the genjutsu via pain, if his ain objective was thwarting Kai. If your argument is that he just didn't want Oro to use jutsu and counterattack, then beheading sounds good too.

Pain works on lower level genjutsu like Tayuya's version of MO (who needed CS2 to cast a B rank genjutsu) or Kurenai's B rank genjutsu. Not on a master Yin manipulator like Itachi, who cast genjutsu that specifically incites the perception of pain and layer someone mid break out attempt who had Kyuubi/uzumaki reserves interrupting his chakra flow.

 For someone with Regen/Rejuvination to lol at bisection by KN4, it's odd he didn't immediately jump back and rejuvinate a limb while laughing at Itachi for his petty attempt. The same man who also laughed at Susanoo sword to the chest.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 1, 2016)

Empathy said:


> Kurenai bit her lip to get out of Itachi's genjutsu, so it's not like it doesn't apply to him.



That was Kurenai's reflected genjutsu, one she recognized and one she knew pain would get her out of. But that brings up a good point: why didn't Orochimaru bite his lip? If pain's all it takes for Itachi's genjutsu. 

I don't think Orochimaru would fear Itachi as much as he did if Itachi's specialty could be overcome by self-inflicted pain. We've seen genjutsu that remains despite pain caused. Do you think that is beyond Itachi's level?



Empathy said:


> The middle panel is when Orochimaru first notices he's been trapped in genjutsu, so he hadn't begun struggling yet.



And he likely stopped struggling after Itachi cut his hand off, removing any chance Orochimaru had of kai-ing out. That doesn't mean the genjutsu was over.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 1, 2016)

Empathy said:


> DB entry: [] This just seems like nit-picking to me. If the brain hallucinates its skin melting off, it would obviously send out pain signals if it feels like its skin is being separated from the bone. Hallucinations can cause pain.



It's absolutely not nit-picking. Visual hallucinations not accompanied by sensation are frequent in schizophrenics. One does not denote the other.

Shikamaru's late reaction to his arm melting, only noticing it when he looked over, and the databook not stating any pain sensation is caused, unlike Magen Kasegui, makes me believe that it is not a genjutsu that causes pain.

This also follows with the logic. If the jutsu caused the excruciating pain of skin being melted off, then how would a little broken bone "snap" one out of genjutsu? Your mind would be focused on the much more intense pain.


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## Dr. White (Mar 1, 2016)

Mugen Onsa 100% causes pain. Shika was affected for a little bit before he broke out.

But what I think people don't realize is that shikamaru countered Mugen Onsa similar to how Itachi countered Hagueki. Not only did Shikamaru set up the kunai for shadow assistance, but he also began focusing his shadow and chakra at the onset of the genjutsu (when Shikamaru looks around and notices he's about to start tripping). This is most likely when he got his shadow close and ready with the half ram, and then he proceded to mentally control it while binded.


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## Empathy (Mar 1, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Nah dog. We never saw Oro struggle to much. He was moving to Kai, and his hands were inches from eachother. We see blood spurt indicating the cut, and then Oro (who's right hand is literally inches away from his arm)holds the bloody arm while still sweating and checkmated (based on him not fighting anymore after that point and fleeing akatsuki altogether).



This is everything Strategos just said and it's wrong. Shaking while holding your arms above your chest to rapidly grabbing and holding your arm below your waist is a difference in feet, not inches. Speak on Strat's behalf when you have an answer for how he went from visibly shacking the entire time he was slowly moving his arms, to quickly moving his arms and not shacking at all.



> Ignoring this is ignoring blatant portrayal.
> The whole reason Itachi cut his hand of was to end Kai. If he wanted to injure him as his main motivation a head shot was more viable. He wanted to thwart jutsu and Kai attempts from that point on. It doesn't make sense for him to end the genjutsu via pain, if his ain objective was thwarting Kai. If your argument is that he just didn't want Oro to use jutsu and counterattack, then beheading sounds good too.



Itachi's suppose to be a pacifist, so I interpreted the hand cut as a warning for him to back down, not that I think beheading him would've accomplished a different result. Both are equally negligible injuries to Orochimaru. 



> Pain works on lower level genjutsu like Tayuya's version of MO (who needed CS2 to cast a B rank genjutsu) or Kurenai's B rank genjutsu. Not on a master Yin manipulator like Itachi, who cast genjutsu that specifically incites the perception of pain and layer someone mid break out attempt who had Kyuubi/uzumaki reserves interrupting his chakra flow.





Sadgoob said:


> That was Kurenai's reflected genjutsu, one she recognized and one she knew pain would get her out of. But that brings up a good point: why didn't Orochimaru bite his lip? If pain's all it takes for Itachi's genjutsu.



The Databook's pretty clear that _Magen: Kyo Tenchi-ten_ is a different jutsu from _Magen: Jubaku Satsu_. The former is Itachi casting a genjutsu that replicates the effects of the jutsu used on him, but it's still a sharingan genjutsu that's cast by Itachi, not Kurenai. 


*Spoiler*: _Databook II—Kyou Tenchi-Ten_ 





> KEKKEI GENKAI; Genjutsu; Magen: Kyou Tenchi Ten (Genjutsu; Demonic Illusion: Universe-Mirroring Reversal)
> User: Uchiha Itachi
> Supplementary; Close range; Rank: none
> 
> ...








> For someone with Regen/Rejuvination to lol at bisection by KN4, it's odd he didn't immediately jump back and rejuvinate a limb while laughing at Itachi for his petty attempt. The same man who also laughed at Susanoo sword to the chest.



That's because he was in awe from the strength of Itachi's sharingan, not from the strength of his hand-cutting skills. It left enough of an impression on Orochimaru for him to keep the hand as a souvenir. 



> I don't think Orochimaru would fear Itachi as much as he did if Itachi's specialty could be overcome by self-inflicted pain. We've seen genjutsu that remains despite pain caused. Do you think that is beyond Itachi's level?



We saw self-inflicted pain get past one of Itachi's genjutsu. Orochimaru didn't bite his lip either because he thought that wouldn't have been sufficient enough to wake him, or his knee-jerk reaction was to try the step that you're taught to counter genjutsu instead of resorting to self-injury.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 1, 2016)

"in order to instantly read through a jutsu and cast it in return"

What part of that is ambiguous in it being the same jutsu cast back?


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## Bringer (Mar 1, 2016)

Yes, but it isn't the same genjutsu. Itachi is casting a genjutsu of his own with identical effects.So either 

1. Itachi purposely casted a weak genjutsu
2. Three tomoe Itachi = Kurenai
3. Itachi casted back a genjutsu with identical effects that was stronger, but Kurenai was still able to break it

I go with number 3. 

As for the Orochimaru things, the lines around Orochimaru that indicated he was in a genjutsu are gone after he gets his arm cut off. Plus he doesn't struggle to grab his stump.


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## Empathy (Mar 1, 2016)

I agree with BringerOfChaos.


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## Dr. White (Mar 1, 2016)

Empathy said:


> Shacking while holding your arms above your chest to rapidly grabbing and holding your arm below your waist is a difference in feet, not inches. Speak on Strat's behalf when you have an answer for how he went from visibly shacking the entire time he was slowly moving his arms, to quickly moving his arms and not shacking at all.


The bind obviously made him slower than usual that's not my point. Oro got caught with his hands at his side, and in one panel had them nearly clapsed together. Itachi cuts his hand off with an unknown timeframe, and then Oro's right hand (which was about by his upper abs) grasped his lower arm...in one panel.




> Itachi's suppose to be a pacifist, so I interpreted the hand cut as a warning for him to back down, not that I think beheading him would've accomplished a different result. Both are equally negligible injuries to Orochimaru.


He is. That was partially his reason for cutting off the arm instead of the head. Logically Itachi taking out Oro is a big heave of Konoha's back, but Itachi wasn't trying to kill if he didn't have to. The other was to thwart Kai/other ninjutsu. Itachi may be a pacifist but he's also extremely cautious, and obviously would look to disable Oro. Which he did.

If Oro's injuries were negligible he would have regened. the fact he didn't from childsplay should go to show you his chakra was messed up at the time, especially in combo with Oro dipping.

Once again. This man played with KN4 like a house puppy, lol'd at Serious Kakashi charging Raikiri at him and then proceeded to give him genin Sasuke treatment, and laughed off getting hit with susanoo.







> The Databook's pretty clear that _Magen: Kyo Tenchi-ten_ is a different jutsu from _Magen: Jubaku Satsu_. The former is Itachi casting a genjutsu that replicates the effects of the jutsu used on him, but it's still a sharingan genjutsu that's cast by Itachi, not Kurenai.


A.) No it isn't. It's called Mirror Heaven and Earth change. It literally copies Kurenai's jutsu and cast it back on her via the sharingan. It is not a sharingan originated genjutsu (we know this because Sasuke used the same one despite obviously not experiencing the specific bind Oro was put through.). Let's also not forget *Itachi wasn't trying to kill them or Kurenai would have got negged.
*
B.) Even if it was a sharingan genjutsu, not all sharingan genjutsu are the same. Even from an eye test, a binding genjutsu with trees wrapping you that Kurenai escaped, or Nails impaling your body causing pain, shock, and nigh paralysis 



> That's because he was in awe from the strength of Itachi's sharingan, not from the strength of his hand-cutting skills. It left enough of an impression on Orochimaru for him to keep the hand as a souvenir.


that's bullshit. Once again, he played with KN4 for fun, thought he could take on Susanoo, and neg diff Kakashi. Orochimaru was literally staring his dream being acheived (all ninjutsu) in the face of a 14 year old. Yet in this instance, Orochimaru is made to flee, by some Chiyo level hype of the 3 tomoe?

Oro in a weaker state had no qualms about trying to same shit with Hebi Sasuke (with mature 3 tomoe) despite being weakened.





> We saw self-inflicted pain get past one of Itachi's genjutsu.


A.) Itachi wasn't trying to kill Kurenai who is no where near Orochimaru in threat level or combat capability.
B.) The jutsu itself causes Pain unlike's Kurenai's basic ass genjutsu.
C.) Itachi's genjutsu he used was a reversal technique not a sharingan genjutsu or near the potency of sharingan genjutsu. Itachi himself called the jutsu trash as he laughed at it, and made her escape it herself by injuring herself.
D.) Oro didn't regen, and was immediately prompted to retreat despite his multiple showings of people with the same thing that beat him (20+ year old Kakashi with sharingan, and Hebi Sasuke), and claimed Itachi as unbeatable based on 3 tomoe alone.

like 



> Orochimaru didn't bite his lip either because he thought that wouldn't have been sufficient enough to wake him, or his knee-jerk reaction was to try the step that you're taught to counter genjutsu instead of resorting to self-injury.


Or, and hear me out on this, Pain is a rudimentary way of breaking oneself out of genjutsu hence why no one has ever used that method since shikamaru. Kai is much more efficient means of breaking genjutsu through either a parge chakra boost to disrupt the rhythm of control, or precise chakra control to balance the manipulation.

Itachi has straight up layered Naruto mid Kai, is a top tier genjutsu user, and even Kai itself is not a guarantee even if you have Perfect Jin.


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## Dr. White (Mar 1, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Yes, but it isn't the same genjutsu. Itachi is casting a genjutsu of his own with identical effects.So either
> 
> 1. Itachi purposely casted a weak genjutsu
> 2. Three tomoe Itachi = Kurenai
> ...


Where are you getting this? The effects were identical and of the same magnitude. It's literally a B rank tree bind genjutsu. Kurenai is not auto immune to genjutsu, she doesn't have the sharingan. Where are yu getting his version wasn't the same exact jutsu? Where is the logical link?

Also equivocation fallacy trying to equalize both genjutsu because the sharingan casted them...Nails through your body > being restricted by a  tree.


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## Bringer (Mar 1, 2016)

If it was the same exact genjutsu, why would the databook go out of it's way to say it's a genjutsu that's being cast back with identical effects instead of the same exact genjutsu. Also, something tells me Itachi won't be listed as a user of Kurenai's genjutsu if I go check the databook. 

Identical effects doesn't mean same power. It just means Kurenai is gonna get her ass trapped in a tree.

Kurenai's genjutsu on Itachi is butter.

Itachi's genjutsu back at Kurenai is "I can't believe it's not butter"


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## Dr. White (Mar 1, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> If it was the same exact genjutsu, why would the databook go out of it's way to say it's a genjutsu that's being cast back with identical effects instead of the same exact genjutsu.


Because Itachi doesn't know that specific jutsu...

the sharingan is the heavenly eye that reads through jutsu...

Itachi's jutsu used there specifically spits back and vision based genjutsu onto the caster...hence why we didn't see him* cast the seals to the jutsu*

I'm asking you...Why does Itachi using a jutsu to reflect a genjutsu back onto Kurenai make it stronger and = to actual sharingan genjutsu...




> Also, something tells me Itachi won't be listed as a user of Kurenai's genjutsu if I go check the databook.


It shouldn't. See above.



> Identical effects doesn't mean same power. It just means Kurenai is gonna get her ass trapped in a tree.


this is were you're being contradictory. The jutsu is literally named after a *reflection* or *change in position* (*heaven and Earth Mirror change*.). The genjutsu reads through the jutsu and cast *identical* effects back on the user.

once again where are you getting this evidence to fufill the burden of proof for the positive claim that it's stronger?



> Kurenai's genjutsu on Itachi is butter.


Exactly.



> Itachi's genjutsu back at Kurenai is "I can't believe it's not butter"


No. Once again. Itachi is not only better at genjutsu than Kurenai, but has sharingan to read through it. Her B rank jutsu was ass to Itachi, but it is not ass to Kurenai. Kurenai can not just lolnope B rank genjutsu, as shown, when Itachi reflected her weak ass shit, and she struggled to escape.

Like you're fucking nuts if you think the exact same thing goes down vs the jutsu Orochimaru faced. She couldn't even resist the tree bind enough to Kai, let alone sharingan induced Nails impaling her 

Itachi wasn't trying to kill them. Kurenai would have been stuck there all day if Itachi hit her with his real shit. also Kurenai casting first vs Itachi. How do you not see all the factors around the situation?


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## Bringer (Mar 1, 2016)

Their different techniques. There's no arguing that. The databook says he casts back a jutsu with identical effects, not the same jutsu. Identical effects doesn't mean equal power. Itachi was not pulling any punches. Even after she broke through the genjutsu he tried to hit her with an explosive clone. Then he put Kakashi in a coma. Then he told Kisame to kill them all, but luckily Gai showed up. INB4 ITACHI KNEW!!!! So here are our options since they *didn't use the same jutsu*. Again, identical means Kurenai is getting her ass stuck on a tree, it doesn't mean the jutsu has the same potency. 

1. Itachi casts a genjutsu weaker than Kurenai's(No)
2. Itachi casts a genjutsu with the same exact power as Kurenai(Itachi wasn't pulling any punches, he wouldn't do that unless Itachi = Kurenai, which is no)
3. Itachi casted a stronger genjutsu, and Kurenai broke out.

Also why didn't Itachi hit her with the real shit? Wouldn't that have been preferable for Mr. pacifist? Kurenai would've been stuck there all day, as you said.


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## Dr. White (Mar 1, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Their different techniques. There's no arguing that.


So then you aren't reading my post, or what? 

*Spoiler*: __ 





> *Because Itachi doesn't know that specific jutsu...(kurenai's genjutsu)*
> 
> the sharingan is the heavenly eye that *reads through jutsu...*
> 
> ...






> > Quote: *You*
> > Also, something tells me Itachi won't be listed as a user of Kurenai's genjutsu if I go check the databook.
> 
> 
> It (meant he here) shouldn't. See above.









> The databook says he casts back a jutsu with identical effects,


Describe to me what the phrase "cast back" and the word _identical_ mean to you.



> not the same jutsu.


^^


> Identical effects doesn't mean equal power.


A.) You are the one claiming that Itachi's reversal jutsu is stronger, with zero evidence to support your assertion. I don't have to prove shit, because it is a *reversal jutsu*, and *called identical*  .
B.) It's a bind genjutsu. Unless Itaci's version started ripping off her damn limbs, what proof is there that his was different?
C.) Still committing equivocation fallacy comparing Kurenai's threat level to Oro's, and two different sharingan genjutsu of different mechanic.



> Itachi was not pulling any punches. Even after she broke through the genjutsu he tried to hit her with an explosive clone.



> Itachi is spy for Akatsuki confirmed by Hiruzen and pacifist confirmed by Tobi, and his refusal to help Kisame with Roshi.
> Itachi, even under cover, tells Kurenai and Asuma he doesn't want to kill them. 
> Itachi blitzed her with a kick, instead of cutting her throat or giving her Oro treatment. His clone literally had her back, and Itachi is tiers faster. Kakashi had time to float up, give her a kunai, notice the bushin, and then save her. More serious (but still not near 100% serious) Itachi pulled a clone feint on Sasuke right in front of his eyes mid shuriken fight, and made him resort to sealless snake 
> Serious Itachi not casting before Kurenai as he sat there watched her fucking cast a genjutusu.



> Then he put Kakashi in a coma.


He used Tsukuyomi to disable Kakashi. Then immediately after Kakashi and Kisame both comment that *Itachi could have killed Kakashi with that jutsu if he wanted to.*

Hmm I wonder what that means. What is between those lines for us to implicitly take in given part 2 events 



> Then he told Kisame to kill them all, but luckily Gai showed up. INB4 ITACHI KNEW!!!!


 Wonder why he didn't cut Kurenai's head off gatou style

 wonder why he didn't lolfinger genjutsu kurenai and Asuma and cut there heads off and instead watched Kurenai cast first

 wonder why he didn't kill Itachi with Tsukuyomi, or follow up with his superior speed to kill Kakashi while *Asuma and Kurenai sat there with their eyes closed * 

 wonder why he ordered Kisame to charge in when Gai came instead of doing it himself (as the faster one see Killer Bee exchange.)



> So here are our options since they *didn't use the same jutsu*.


Here are our options.
-You do not get to go to "Go" and collect 200 dollars.
-You read, take in, and comprehend my post and what I am saying to you.
-You actually respond to me point by point like a real debate instead of using walls of post to indirectly rebuttal.
-?????????
-Profit.



> Also why didn't Itachi hit her with the real shit? Wouldn't that have been preferable for Mr. pacifist? Kurenai would've been stuck there all day, as you said.


The same reason he didn't just turn on Kisame right there and then. He was Akatsuki's spy for Konoha per Hiruzen's words. He had to appear like he was trying. But Itachi was visibly and as we know, canonically, giving even like 1/3 of his best. even shouten Itachi was more aggressive 


Please Stahp.


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## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2016)

I find it funny that people think cutting orochimaru arm didn't break him from the genjutsu

Why should real pain not override the fake effects of the genjutsu when we have seen genjutsu overriding the effects of another genjutsu 

in any case that fight carried on , otherwise how does itachi know Yamata by sensation alone and orochimaru know susanoo 

food for thought

Orochimaru feared itachi because he knew most of itachi jutsu which would include tskuyomi and Amaterasu he didn't fear itachi for simply being caught in genjutsu 

I mean folks base snake Kabuto had no issues avoiding genjutsu all together . 

Itachi cutting orochimaru arm off prevents oro from using jutsu such as ET. And so on it also shows clear superiority . The intent wasn't to kill him 

Considering beheading him is still not a sure way to kill oro . Why would I be able to survive biscetion which severed my spine but die to loosing a head  . Explain the logic there 

Oro real head and brain are in his snake form . Cutting the head of the hosted body means nothing


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 1, 2016)

> We're not talking about all genjutsu here, we're talking about Utakata specifically. The reason I brought that up is because you seemed to guffaw at the idea of Itachi being able to defeat Kage-level ninja with genjutsu and a kunai



I guffaw at Itachi defeating kage level ninja with Utakata specifically.  Tsukiyomi>sharingan genjutsu>Utakata.  I don't think Mei couldn't be beaten with genjutsu in general, I don't think she or anyone else above early PII Naruto's genjutsu capability and intelligence will be beaten with Utakata genjutsu specifically.  There's a reason Itachi never uses Utakata over his occular genjutsu when he can help it, and why all the Utakata hype came from Itachi being so good that he could _cast_ a genjutsu at all with a finger, and not that the Utakata genjutsu was amazing.  If you look at Itachi's fights thereafter, he has never once tried for Utakata on anyone who isn't Naruto, instead exclusively favoring sharingan genjutsu.  

If you treat it like, "Every genjutsu Itachi does is of the same level,"  (i.e. Utakata is as good as his Sharingan Genjutsu because it's Itachi,) that's the same as saying every ninjutsu of X Ninjutsu master is equally good because they're good at ninjutsu, and that's clearly not the case.  Fireball jutsu is not every bit as powerful as fire dragons just because Sasuke's good at katons, and every taijutsu punch from Guy is not just as good at Afternoon Tiger or his named kicks that get their own databook entries.  When you default to saying Itachi can solo with Utakata because he's soloed with genjutsu before, and genjutsu can solo, you may as well be making those other arguments as well, and that's why we part in opinion.  

Do you remember when Kurenai broke out of genjutsu and dodged Itachi's kunai stab?  That's what I see happening with infinitely more ease if Itachi tried to Utakata a competent opponent and off them with shuriken.  Or when Bee broke the genjutsu and blocked Itachi's shuriken.  If he landed Utakata, and Itachi has a clone set up beforehand to take advantage to better his odds of hitting the  opening, then _perhaps_ but that wasn't what was being argued.  If instead it's an occular genjutsu like the one that held Orochimaru for a time, and he has a clone at the ready, then I can see that.


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## Dr. White (Mar 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I find it funny that people think cutting orochimaru arm didn't break him from the genjutsu
> 
> Why should real pain not override the fake effects of the genjutsu when we have seen genjutsu overriding the effects of another genjutsu
> 
> ...



Just another random peak at your post from IL land, but....

Pain is a physiological response to body damage, but it is a *mental faculty*. There are people who have a condition where they can't feel pain, and they have no idea they are seriously injured sometimes for months.

Genjutsu completely recreates perception and controls the mind. Just like Danzo seeing his sharingan open on his arm, or Juugo seeing Sasuke get killed/hearing floor break, and even *Killer Bee being paralyzed (by MS Sasuke) until broken out despite his pain tolerance*. Orochimaru is someone who who made pt. 1 Kakashi piss his pants with killing intent alone, and has no qualms about dueling KN4 and laughed off being cut in half. Yet, he was straight shook after experiencing the bind because of the perceived Pain. 

- Killer Bee was burnt/stabbed by *Itachi's kunai while in genjutsu yet still was caught until HAchibi broke him out.*

Naruto perceived himself being *cut by Shuriken and commented on the pain when caught by ephemeral.*

and then there is the fact that Pain method is rudimentery style that's only been shown to be effective against B rank type genjutsu.


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## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2016)

B rank genjutsu isn't an indication of power 

Also itachi genjutsu for the most part have no rank 

But guess trolls will say they are all S rank right


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## Dr. White (Mar 1, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> I guffaw at Itachi defeating kage level ninja with Utakata specifically.  Tsukiyomi>sharingan genjutsu>Utakata.  I don't think Mei couldn't be beaten with genjutsu in general, I don't think she or anyone else above early PII Naruto's genjutsu capability and intelligence will be beaten with Utakata genjutsu specifically.  There's a reason Itachi never uses Utakata over his occular genjutsu when he can help it, and why all the Utakata hype came from Itachi being so good that he could _cast_ a genjutsu at all with a finger, and not that the Utakata genjutsu was amazing.  If you look at Itachi's fights thereafter, he has never once tried for Utakata on anyone who isn't Naruto, instead exclusively favoring sharingan genjutsu.
> 
> If you treat it like, "Every genjutsu Itachi does is of the same level,"  (i.e. Utakata is as good as his Sharingan Genjutsu because it's Itachi,) that's the same as saying every ninjutsu of X Ninjutsu master is equally good because they're good at ninjutsu, and that's clearly not the case.  Fireball jutsu is not every bit as powerful as fire dragons just because Sasuke's good at katons, and every taijutsu punch from Guy is not just as good at Afternoon Tiger or his named kicks that get their own databook entries.  When you default to saying Itachi can solo with Utakata because he's soloed with genjutsu before, and genjutsu can solo, you may as well be making those other arguments as well, and that's why we part in opinion.


You should prob stop treating genutsu like other stats. *It's a hax*. Unless you have defense against it, then you are screwed. Even if people can break out, they aren't doing it anywhere quick enough to not get a follow up landed on them (given conditions) unless they have sharingan..

Ukataka is clearly a very potent genjutsu that not only had Naruto chasing imaginary dragons, but also had him feel pain, and be forced to face his utmost inner demons. Naruto had literal tons of chakra to flush his system and Itachi just layered him. *Genjutsu is a tool that's as good as a user can use it, and Itachi is top tier genjutsu caster*.Jiraiya's style is predicated on using low ranking jutsu and making them effective. Itachi's lower level genjutsu are no exception. *Like what evidence do you have that puts Ukataka down to negligible level?
*
Also if we want to talk about chakra control let's talk. *Naruto mastered TKB as a pre genin, mastered Rasengan in a week (to Minato's couple of years), completed mixing Rasengan with an Element at 16 (before Minato), and also mastered Sage balancing with non friendly Kyuubi, and no Ma and Pa.*


You tried to call me out for claiming that I argue from feeling yet this pretty much boils down to " I don't think Ukataka can beat people if landed because it's not 3 tomoe and I feel like it's weak and people with no shown resistance can break it.". Itachi not using it all the time is moot, he has other methods and rarely needs to resort to said jutsu. Just like how Tsunade never uses her raiton, Shousen, (offensively) or Katsuyu acid, yet it's patent Ic for her to pull off and solo with here...


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## Itachі (Mar 1, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> I guffaw at Itachi defeating kage level ninja with Utakata specifically.  Tsukiyomi>sharingan genjutsu>Utakata.  I don't think Mei couldn't be beaten with genjutsu in general, I don't think she or anyone else above early PII Naruto's genjutsu capability and intelligence will be beaten with Utakata genjutsu specifically.  There's a reason Itachi never uses Utakata over his occular genjutsu when he can help it, and why all the Utakata hype came from Itachi being so good that he could _cast_ a genjutsu at all with a finger, and not that the Utakata genjutsu was amazing.  If you look at Itachi's fights thereafter, he has never once tried for Utakata on anyone who isn't Naruto, instead exclusively favoring sharingan genjutsu.
> 
> If you treat it like, "Every genjutsu Itachi does is of the same level,"  (i.e. Utakata is as good as his Sharingan Genjutsu because it's Itachi,) that's the same as saying every ninjutsu of X Ninjutsu master is equally good because they're good at ninjutsu, and that's clearly not the case.  Fireball jutsu is not every bit as powerful as fire dragons just because Sasuke's good at katons, and every taijutsu punch from Guy is not just as good at Afternoon Tiger or his named kicks that get their own databook entries.  When you default to saying Itachi can solo with Utakata because he's soloed with genjutsu before, and genjutsu can solo, you may as well be making those other arguments as well, and that's why we part in opinion.



Subtle Genjutsu whether it's 3 Tomoe Genjutsu or Utakata can end fights with Kage levels. Genjutsu is very underestimated here, it's not like Itachi's going to be sitting on his ass while his opponent is in an illusion. A lot of people (not directing this towards you) seem to think that everyone Kage level is automatically invulnerable to standard Genjutsu, Genjutsu is very underestimated in general. People forget that it still takes time for an opponent to actually realise that they're in a Genjutsu and then break out of it. I mean, all it really takes is two seconds or so for Itachi to swoop in and slit his opponent's throat in reality. We can't just assume that every capable Ninja is going to instantly Kai out of Genjutsu when Bee; a Perfect Jinchuriki, was caught in Genjutsu by Sasuke & Itachi and when C; a Sensor, was paralysed by Sasuke as well. Let's not forget that Danzo who had 3 Tomoe activated fell to standard Genjutsu from Sasuke. As Dr. White said, Genjutsu is hax. It's not as simple as Naruto countering Sasuke's Chidori with Rasenshuriken or Mei countering Itachi's Gokakyu with Suiryudan. Yeah it might seem cheap but I rarely see people list any counters to Genjutsu besides 'lol kage!'.


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## Dr. White (Mar 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> B rank genjutsu isn't an indication of power
> 
> Also itachi genjutsu for the most part have no rank
> 
> But guess trolls will say they are all S rank right



It's an indicator of level of difficulty. Itachi called that level trash. You also didn't respond to any other points. If Itachi lol noped Kurenai's B rank, and Itachi can genjutsu people lke Oro and Bee, what do you think most of his are 

Why is Raikiri is > Lightning Dog, and Grand Fire Dragon Jutsu > Grand Fireball jutsu ck


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## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2016)

he said that level wasn't strong enough to work on him he didn't call it trash however 

However ukataka failed to put naruto to sleep hardly over B rank 

Maybe u think it is 

in any case . Itachi wins . Because Mei is foolish enough to not close her eyes or fight while retreating despite zabuza and base Kabuto being able to


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## Dr. White (Mar 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> he said that level wasn't strong enough to work on him he didn't call it trash however


He essentially called it trash compared to himself.



> However ukataka failed to put naruto to sleep hardly over B rank


It made him throw Rasengans at the air, made him think he was injured, and then almost made him breakdown mid battlefield. Itachi didn't try to put him to sleep until the end when Sakura and Chiyo got him out.
I could actually see Ephemeral being B ranked to be honest. I think his 3 tomoe is A rank, as well as Shinkarasu.



> in any case . Itachi wins . Because Mei is foolish enough to not close her eyes or fight while retreating despite zabuza and base Kabuto being able to


Zabuza never fought Itachi or anyone on his level (part 1 Itachi would lose comfortably to Shouten Itachi.).

Kabuto couldn't be injured. Itachi didn't even let Sasuke's shuriken get near him. Plus after like 30 seconds he was fleeing in Sage Mode.


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## Itachі (Mar 1, 2016)

Didn't Utakata literally make Naruto.. cry? Though given Naruto's top-tier sensitivity feat in the Kage Summit Arc I don't think that it would be too hard too accomplish.


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## Dr. White (Mar 1, 2016)

lmao Icegaze so trash he can't rebutt and forced to neg in silence. Shhh only tears now  , I remember why IL land is your hearthstone.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 1, 2016)

> You should prob stop treating genutsu like other stats.  It's a hax.



If genjutsus didn't have ranks and powers and parameters they wouldn't be given ranks and powers and parameters.  If a non-ocular genjutsu is as good as the super special eyes who's primary focus was on creating and deciphering powerful genjutsu, and which ultimately contain the power to put the world under genjutsu, then yeah, I'd expect Utakata to be thrown around more.  What's the point of saying that Shisui's eye is a genjutsu powerful enough to break Edo Tensei, if any genjutsu Shisui or Itachi could use could break Edo Tensei?  What's the point of saying that Tsukiyomi is better and more powerful than every regular genjutsu if every one is that good just because it's cast by Itachi?  



> You tried to call me out for claiming that I argue from feeling yet this pretty much boils down to " I don't think Ukataka can beat people if landed because it's not 3 tomoe and I feel like it's weak and people with no shown resistance can break it.".



I don't know if you originally read that as "argument from emotion," because I wasn't clear, or because you misunderstood, or didn't read it properly, or aren't remembering properly, or you just shortened it to that for convenience.

I called you out for arguing based on general impressions you run with, and then build a system around, without questioning if your central impression are correct.  I then criticized you for telling people to throw out their ideas to match yours.  You said you don't do that anymore and to judge you on what you do now.  Okay.  Now you want me to throw away an entire universe of mechanics and entries and observations and reach far beyond the feats displayed in the manga to make Utakata a god tier genjutsu because that's the impression you got of genjutsu and Itachi, which you now apply to Utakata.  The fact is it's not treated the way some people have been treating it in the manga.  Go show me objective proof of the contrary.  Go show me where it's stated that the classification and ranking system applied to it and other jutsu doesn't exist for genjutsu.  

I also got on about people using lol and lmao to belittle opposition, but you aren't doing that here, so I'll rep you.  

I'd also like to point out that the illustrious Strategos, who is always so careful with his words, said that, "There's no definite proof Utakata is weaker."  Or words to that effect.  What's awesome about Strategos is that he definitely looked to show they were equal or better, and phrased it this way because he can't state with certainly that it is and probably found reasonable reasons one might believe otherwise. (Or he'd usually come on stronger.)  He's my favorite reason why you should never discount the knowledge you can gain from any source.  Even if your source is an editing illusionist.



> Subtle Genjutsu whether it's 3 Tomoe Genjutsu or Utakata can end fights with Kage levels. Genjutsu is very underestimated here, it's not like Itachi's going to be sitting on his ass while his opponent is in an illusion. A lot of people (not directing this towards you) seem to think that everyone Kage level is automatically invulnerable to standard Genjutsu, Genjutsu is very underestimated in general. People forget that it still takes time for an opponent to actually realise that they're in a Genjutsu and then break out of it. I mean, all it really takes is two seconds or so for Itachi to swoop in and slit his opponent's throat in reality. We can't just assume that every capable Ninja is going to instantly Kai out of Genjutsu when Bee; a Perfect Jinchuriki, was caught in Genjutsu by Sasuke & Itachi and when C; a Sensor, was paralysed by Sasuke as well. Let's not forget that Danzo who had 3 Tomoe activated fell to standard Genjutsu from Sasuke.



Subtle genjutsu has a place.  The subtle genjutsu Itachi used on Bee was sharingan.  The subtle genjutsu Sasuke used on Danzo was sharingan.  In that example they straight up said, "Even if Sasuke's illusion was weak, it can matter if it's applies properly."  What I said is that if Itachi applies his illusions properly, a weak genjutsu can work.  I gave examples of how I see properly utilized genjutsu, even weaker ones, winning a fight against a good calibur of opponents.  A Soul Calibur of opponents.  Opponents like Cervantes.  But for the most part, it's going to get snapped like Danzo snapped the illusion of Itachi if it's weak, but not get lolsnapped if it's like the one Itachi put Orochimaru/Deidara/Sasuke/Kakashi clone in.  

Utakata isn't a subtle genjutsu, because subtle genjutsu don't paralyze people or put them to sleep, and if you're actively overpowering someone's chakra network to put them in a coma, you're going to be not moving like with Kakashi vs Obito and Itachi vs Sasuke.  During those genjutsu, no, Itachi can't move in them until the genjutsu is finished.  For example, Itachi didn't come back to reality until after he finished the occular genjutsu on Kakashi's clone.  He didn't look in Kakashi's eye, and push him down and stab him mid-genjutsu.  They froze there for a bit while it played out, and if that genjutsu is snapped, the two parties are on equal grounds, assuming the caster doesn't receive backlash from a failed genjutsu.  Though that might have just been the standard MS backlash.

I know Itachi has subtle genjutsu, but we shouldn't pretend like any genjutsu can do anything whenever the caster feels like (Save perhaps Tsukiyomi and eternal Tsukiyomi, who's big hype is that the user can freely control everything down to the flow of time.)  Tayuya chose her genjutsu, saying, "I have just the right one for you," and cast it.  She didn't play her song and catch Shikamaru, and then decide how she'd make the illusion go, or start readying it without knowing what it'd be yet, in the same way ninjas don't start making random handseals and then decide which jutsu to cast, and I don't have any reason to believe Utakata works differently.


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## Dr. White (Mar 1, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> If genjutsus didn't have ranks and powers and parameters they wouldn't be given ranks and powers and parameters.


Non sequitur. Some genjutsu is stronger than others, and more difficult to perform. Nothing about that changes it being a hax incomarable to other stats, and bypassing conventional defenses.



> If a non-ocular genjutsu is as good as the super special eyes who's primary focus was on creating and deciphering powerful genjutsu, and which ultimately contain the power to put the world under genjutsu, then yeah, I'd expect Utakata to be thrown around more.


A.) This isn't really an argument as I pointed out earlier. Eye contact jutsu is easier to perform, and Itachi has a myriad of other genjutsu and deceptive jutsu like bushins.
B.) There are a bunch of jutsu you can say this about as well. Kakashi's raiton dog, Tsunade's Raiton, Katsuyu's Acid, etc. The author not showing them is not proof of them being ineffective against certain characters with no resistance to said moves.
C.) Ukataka doesn't have to be as good as 3 tomoe to be good enough to give Kage level opponents trouble. It's a hax for a reason.





> What's the point of saying that Shisui's eye is a genjutsu powerful enough to break Edo Tensei, if any genjutsu Shisui or Itachi could use could break Edo Tensei?


Who is claiming this? What does this have to do with your argument? Order of genjutsu has nothing to do with who can resist it. Not every genjutsu can break ET like Koto, but Koto + Many other a genjutsu can manipulate others...I don't understand your point here.



> What's the point of saying that Tsukiyomi is better and more powerful than every regular genjutsu if every one is that good just because it's cast by Itachi?


Who's saying this? You keep making these strawman and black or white cases. Tsukuyomi is strong because it condenses 72 hours of experience into a single moment and is unbeatable by Kai. That doesn't change the fact that Sasuke used 3 tomoe to get similar effects on a genjutsu/medic/sensor like Shi.. Genjutsu is hax in general, some are just more OP and easier to initiate than others.

What you guys don't understand are the following 3 crux of the genjutsu argument:
Implimentation: Genjutsu is by far the easiest to impliment and the hardest to avoid. Not only is it human nature and highly effective in combat to look at the upper body (fingers, eyes) , but Itachi can also force eye contact, or throw his hand in your face using speed, or distractions. One literal momentary slip up, and you can be fighting ghost ITachi without even knowing it, and open to an Ama or Fire Kunai to the brain.

Uncommon Resistance: Genjutsu doesn't care about your chakra level, or your strength, or your speed. If you are caught you have to work against the Yin manipulation on your brain. Not only doing this while dealing with said illusion (if you are even aware), but also having to do so in time before a follow up happens. Ask Oro, and Naruto how long it takes to Kai, and if Itachi can follow up in time. Even against a perfect Jin who snapped out of MS bind in seconds, was under deceptive jutsu for multiple panels attacking thin air.

Follow Up: you keep bringing up why there are even different types of genjutsu with different power. That's simple. Ukataka is not going to put someone in a coma who's over Elite Jounin level (some exceptions obviously) because they most likely have the chakra control/mental fortitude to break out eventually (assuming Itachi wasn't layering, or following up). Look at Shi's genjutsu, Kurenai's Bind, Mugen Onsa. They all serve a purpose and are conducive to follow up attacks. *Attacks like Koto, Gamarinshou, Tsukuyomi, etc don't need that because you win if they land and the target has no defense..*





> I don't know if you originally read that as "argument from emotion,"


You said even when I am proved wrong, I tend to answer with "Well I still feel like this is right". Which led me to believe argument from emotion.



> I called you out for arguing based on general impressions you run with, and then build a system around, without questioning if your central impression are correct.  I then criticized you for telling people to throw out their ideas to match yours.


you act like I don't sit here with TL;DR's and manga panels and arguments to back it up. I tell people to throw out their beliefs when they are founded on nohting but bias, and you can't even give a prper argument for your beliefs.

It's funny I see people you respect do a lot less explaining than I do, and harp their opinions as fact just as much if not more, yet I never see you comment on anyone else who isn't a blatant troll.




> Okay.  Now you want me to throw away an entire universe of mechanics and entries and observations and reach far beyond the feats displayed in the manga to make Utakata a god tier genjutsu because that's the impression you got of genjutsu and Itachi, which you now apply to Utakata.


What mechanics? You are making strawmen, ignoring mechanics yourself, and legitimately doing what you accuse me of. 
> Who called Ukataka God tier? Being able to genjutsu someone for 5 to 10 seconds with deceptive illusions, or make them face their love ones and get flustered leading to an opening is god tier genjutsu now? Shi is god tier? Tayuya is God Tier? What's the difference between shi and Itachi? Itachi can follow up with shushin speed, diverse, arsenal, taijutsu, weapons, etc. His usage of the genjutsu is not only better but his overall combat prowess combined with genjutsu is what makes him so deadly with it.

> Once again. What evidence do you have to suggest Ukataka is not a threat to Kage level opponents just cause? That's literally your argument. "omg Ukataka isn't god tier, Mei would lolbrush it aside cause she's kage". What mechanics allow her to bypass Yin control. What databook statements? Let e see them please.



> The fact is it's not treated the way some people have been treating it in the manga.  Go show me objective proof of the contrary.  Go show me where it's stated that the classification and ranking system applied to it and other jutsu doesn't exist for genjutsu.


> You are the one claiming genjutsu can just be countered just cause... So I'd ask you bring a bit of proof to the table...

Uhm let's see. Oro got soloed by 3 tomoe. Itachi got caught by Mugen Onsa. *Chiyo claimed generic 3 tomoe is Flee or run status because one on one genjutsu is that much of a threat. Gai had to make a counter style to Kakashi and by pt. 1 his sharingan genjutsu was trash.*

Why is jiraiya, a Sannin, self admittedly trash at it? Why was his bootleg method countered easy by Itachi despite Naruto's reserves?


> I'd also like to point out that the illustrious Strategos, who is always so careful with his words, said that, "There's no definite proof Utakata is weaker."  Or words to that effect.  What's awesome about Strategos is that he definitely looked to show they were equal or better, and phrased it this way because he can't state with certainly that it is and probably found reasonable reasons one might believe otherwise. (Or he'd usually come on stronger.)  He's my favorite reason why you should never discount the knowledge you can gain from any source.  Even if your source is an editing illusionist.


I never claimed Ukataka was = 3 tomoe. We don't have enough knowledge. What we do know.
- It was very similar to what Bee went through with his 3 tomoe encounter.
- Naruto couldn't overload his sytem to break out after ITachi strengthened it.
- It mimicked Pain, brought out dark memeories (that Itachi didn't know about like Gaara), and was going to make him feint. Once again, job all you want on Naruto, the kid learned Rasengan, FRS, and Sage Mode and Itachi was punking that same Naruto with knowledge and a counter from his Sannin mentor. Then Itachi got him again with Shinkarasu.



> Subtle genjutsu has a place.  The subtle genjutsu Itachi used on Bee was sharingan.  The subtle genjutsu Sasuke used on Danzo was sharingan.  In that example they straight up said, "Even if Sasuke's illusion was weak, it can matter if it's applies properly."


*your problem is you are applying exceptions and making them the rule.* Danzo is a sharingan user himself with Shisui's eye and multiple other sharingan. Hence why he was confident he wouldn't be genjutsu'd to an significant effect (he countered Sasuke's attempt to make him think he got hit with Ama).

Bee is a Perfect Jin with auto telepathic communication. Itachi caught him with genjutsu that lasted for *"a literal second"* in between Bee's swing, and Itachi's Katon. Bee proceded to get* burnt/pierced* while under the effects (bye bye Pain argument) of genjutsu, chase a fake Itachi, and then watch as shuriken crows came flying to his face. A battle hardened veteran like Bee would have ate basic shuriken to the face.

This is why we saw genjutsu is underestimated. Even when someone has knowledge and a perfect counter they come inches away from sever injury from a seconds glance with Itachi. Yet people try to use the scene to apply it to everyone and downplay genjutsu...



> What I said is that if Itachi applies his illusions properly, a weak genjutsu can work.


She me a weak genjutsu.

Shi's Genjutsu, Kurenai's Genjutsu, and Mugen Onsa are all on the same general tier. Kage level ninja can't even brush those aside. Let alone 3 tomoe (Oro, bee, diedara). Now Imagine if Itachi used Mugen Onsa, or Shi's genjutsu. It would be a hundred times better. Just like Gai using 5th gate is better than Genin Lee using fifth gate because Itachi is a more skilled Manipulator.




> Utakata isn't a subtle genjutsu, because subtle genjutsu don't paralyze people or put them to sleep, and if you're actively overpowering someone's chakra network to put them in a coma, you're going to be not moving like with Kakashi vs Obito and Itachi vs Sasuke.


> Ukataka began subtle hence why he didn't notice any change in perception, then it went full blown obvious. Naruto tried to stop it, and Itachi amped it. Then NAruto cried and pissed himself.
> Itachi was going to put Nardo to sleep.

> Itachi was controlling Bee while throwing shuriken/using katons, binding Oro when he cut his arm off, and *when Itachi used Ukataka on Naruto he was actively engaged with Kakashi.*

> Itachi controlled that Hooker from dozens of meters away while fighting Sasuke.




> During those genjutsu, no, Itachi can't move in them until the genjutsu is finished.  For example, Itachi didn't come back to reality until after he finished the occular genjutsu on Kakashi's clone.  He didn't look in Kakashi's eye, and push him down and stab him mid-genjutsu.


This is a lie. See above.

Itachi was busy holding him to genjutsu him then realized it was a clone.




> They froze there for a bit while it played out, and if that genjutsu is snapped, the two parties are on equal grounds, assuming the caster doesn't receive backlash from a failed genjutsu.  Though that might have just been the standard MS backlash.


Nah once again see above, and they only stopped for a second in real time. Genjutsu time is not real time. Itachi pretty much got into that lock and a couple seconds later got nailed with the rasengan.

Also Shouten clones were specifically distraction. Another things usually ignored; No Itachi fight except vs Bee and Nagato was with killing intent or anything close, and sometimes the exact opposite ala purposefully losing.



> I know Itachi has subtle genjutsu, but we shouldn't pretend like any genjutsu can do anything whenever the caster feels like (Save perhaps Tsukiyomi and eternal Tsukiyomi, who's big hype is that the user can freely control everything down to the flow of time.)


But Itachi has more than that genjutsu wise. He also has amazing taijutsu. He also has amazing speed. He also has amazing ninjutsu. He also has amazing reactions. He also has amazing weapon play. Genjutsu is just his best category and is conducive to opening up his arsenal to being more effective.

People act like Itachi pre skip Kidomaru with just Ukataka and 3 tomoe soloing.



> Tayuya chose her genjutsu, saying, "I have just the right one for you," and cast it.  She didn't play her song and catch Shikamaru, and then decide how she'd make the illusion go, or start readying it without knowing what it'd be yet, in the same way ninjas don't start making random handseals and then decide which jutsu to cast, and I don't have any reason to believe Utakata works differently.


She wanted a binding one that would also torture him. She stated she knew dozens she could use in that mode hinting they were pre set. Itachi si 1000x more skilled in genjutsu and has a KKG suited to it.

Itachi can make the illusion on the fly. Itachi had no idea about Naruto's personal most deep feelings that got brought out, yet he still got mindraped. Once again there is also the chasing air, and fake injury aspect.

I don't understand this argument. Itachi doesn't need to plan some coplex cinematography in order to genjutsu someone. He needs a micro second glance and they are done. This is literally what is shown.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 1, 2016)

Yeah, unless someone has a legit genjutsu defense, like dojutsu, perfect jin or some other proven mechanic, they aren't consistently escaping it. Itachi so far landed every genjutsu he wanted to land, I absolutely have no idea how random people in battledome have a solid shot @ consistently avoiding his 100% success rate genjutsu with no evidence to back that up.


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## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2016)

Zabuza and Kabuto did 

Without some solid method and easily at that . Kabuto put his hood over his face and fled till SM

Zabuza used hidden mist .these 2 employed basic tactics that a lot of ninja can use 

I mean what exactly is crazy about Mei closing her eyes off the bat and using hidden mist 

Or simply dropping a smoke bomb then using hidden mist 

The only 2 characters who actively tried to not get caught successfully did so 

Every other character who got caught made no effort to not get caught which is what every single itachi fan crazily forgets 

I mean naruto idea was what look at his chest area . First time and second time was look at him while using clones from behind hardly smart 

A smoke bomb , flee and then spam clones would have been much better .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 1, 2016)

Itachi still ended up landing a genjutsu on Kabuto. Like I said, 100% success rate.
Kakashi too landed a genjutsu on Zabuza.

Naruto actively tried to avoid genjutsu, got caught by the finger and then the crow. 

Like I said, you can meta game all you want, Itachi lands a genjutsu when he wants to. On the other hand, we haven't seen anyone except a handful of people who can consistently avoid genjutsu and those people all had specific skillsets to counter genjutsu.

When you come out and say some bottom of the barrel scrub can consistently avoid genjutsu from Itachi while being able to fight effectively, I'll naturally ask for proof.


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## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2016)

Yes he did he used izanami to do so . Doubt you implying he is going to loose an eye over Mei of all people 

Kakashi did not land genjutsu on zabuza the second time around which is the point I am making . While making an effort to avoid being caught he successfully did so 

In the situation where I say she can launch hidden mist

U do know that allows her to constitently avoid genjutsu for the rest of the fight right

Haku and other fodder sword men can fight efficiently in the mist would be hilarious to assume Mei the only other ninja who can use hidden mist can't fight in it 

Again am not saying she wins just . It's not ridiculous to combat genjutsu

Guerilla tactics , clones , sensing are all logical ways of avoiding eye contact 

Do u at least get what am saying ? Mei is bottom of the bottom not claiming otherwise .
Zabuza is much weaker yet can fight with his eyes closed

Itachi won't genjutsu him . So why would he genjutsu Mei 

Doesn't mean itachi doesn't kill a squad of the 2 if u think he is that far above


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Yes he did he used izanami to do so . Doubt you implying he is going to loose an eye over Mei of all people



Let me remind you about some of the events that happened in the manga.

Itachi and Kakashi face the second time, Kakashi tries to avoid eye contact, Itachi is like "fuck you kid" and grabs his neck and forces eye contact 
Naruto tries to avoid eye contact, Itachi is like "fuck you kid" and gets him with finger genjutsu.
Naruto faces him the third time and he is trying to avoid his finger too Itachi is like "fuck you kid" and gets him with the sharingan crow.
Kabuto makes himself completely immune to visual genjutsu and Itachi is like "fuck  you kid" and pulls Izanami and gets him anyway.

Do you see a pattern here?  Do you think a guy who specializes in genjutsu isn't aware of the fact that certain people can take countermeasures against genjutsu ? 

Whatever Mei does, Itachi will say "fuck you kid" and catch her with genjutsu. That is dictated by the pattern the manga has shown us.




> Kakashi did not land genjutsu on zabuza the second time around which is the point I am making . While making an effort to avoid being caught he successfully did so


Zabuza used hidden mist and ran away. He didn't fight. Thats why Kakashi didn't land a genjutsu on him.



> In the situation where I say she can launch hidden mist
> 
> 
> U do know that allows her to constitently avoid genjutsu for the rest of the fight right


No because that assumes Itachi will never be able to close the distance and get in close to her, which is absolute bollocks.



> Haku and other fodder sword men can fight efficiently in the mist would be hilarious to assume Mei the only other ninja who can use hidden mist can't fight in it



I never said she can't fight in the mist, I said she can't consistently avoid Itachi's eyes, finger or his sharingan crow while fighting at maximum effectiveness.




> Again am not saying she wins just . It's not ridiculous to combat genjutsu


And I'm just saying many people tried that shit against Itachi and failed.



> Guerilla tactics , clones , sensing are all logical ways of avoiding eye contact
> 
> Do u at least get what am saying ? Mei is bottom of the bottom not claiming otherwise .
> Zabuza is much weaker yet can fight with his eyes closed
> ...



Conjecture.


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## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2016)

Fair enough Grimm

What you are saying now is he eventually catches her 

Not Genjutsu GG off the bat like he would a Genin 

Pretty much all I was trying to get u to say 

I haven't said she will stomp win or certainly win 

Just she isn't a helpless goat


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## Bringer (Mar 1, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> So then you aren't reading my post, or what?
> 
> 
> Describe to me what the phrase "cast back" and the word _identical_ mean to you.



Okay so you agree they aren't the same technique. 

Cast back in that context to me means casting back an attack. Itachi shoots a fire ball, so I cast back a stream of water. 

A genjutsu with identical effects to me mean's it's a different genjutsu that makes you see the same thing... The tree trapping your ass. 




> A.) You are the one claiming that Itachi's reversal jutsu is stronger, with zero evidence to support your assertion. I don't have to prove shit, because it is a *reversal jutsu*, and *called identical*  .



It's only a reversal jutsu by name. If it truly was a reversal jutsu Kurenai would be stuck in tree binding death, and not a jutsu with identical effects. 

My evidence for Itachi's genjutsu being stronger than Kurenai's is because Itachi is better at genjutsu than Kurenai. Better at genjutsu means casting stronger illusions. 

Itachi would have no reason to cast a weak illusion. Don't say "BUT MERCY" because a strong binding genjutsu would've be favorsome to the PACIFIST, plus it'd be way less worse than putting someone in a coma, which wasn't above Itachi that day. 



> B.) It's a bind genjutsu. Unless Itaci's version started ripping off her damn limbs, what proof is there that his was different?



His was probably harder to break than Kurenai's




> C.) Still committing equivocation fallacy comparing Kurenai's threat level to Oro's, and two different sharingan genjutsu of different mechanic.



Still had no reason to pull any punches. 




>



I can  too




> > Itachi is spy for Akatsuki confirmed by Hiruzen and pacifist confirmed by Tobi, and his refusal to help Kisame with Roshi.



Could've swore Kisame told Itachi to stay back, but regardless the pacifist crap doesn't mean shit to me. A pacifist doesn't put someone in a coma that the convenient next Hokage that he didn't know was going to be the next Hokage had to heal. 



> > Itachi, even under cover, tells Kurenai and Asuma he doesn't want to kill them.
> > Itachi blitzed her with a kick, instead of cutting her throat or giving her Oro treatment. His clone literally had her back, and Itachi is tiers faster. Kakashi had time to float up, give her a kunai, notice the bushin, and then save her. More serious (but still not near 100% serious) Itachi pulled a clone feint on Sasuke right in front of his eyes mid shuriken fight, and made him resort to sealless snake
> > Serious Itachi not casting before Kurenai as he sat there watched her fucking cast a genjutusu.


I never said Itachi was serious. I'm saying he wasn't pulling punches. There's a difference. 

Itachi did try to slit Kurenai's throat with a kunai, she ducked, and then he kicked her. Hypothetically what if Kurenai was too slow? 

Itachi isn't a sensor. He didn't know Kakashi was coming. The exploding clone would've hit Kurenai. 

Itachi then hits Kakashi with a tsukuyomi, not because he has to, but because he can. Putting Kkaashi in a coma was unnecessary.

And again, Itachi the not sensor, told Kisame to kill everyone. Fucking lucky Gai came when he did. What do you think would've happen if Kisame charged. "On second thought Kisame, we should go LOLOLOLOLL TROLLED YA" 





> He used Tsukuyomi to disable Kakashi. Then immediately after Kakashi and Kisame both comment that *Itachi could have killed Kakashi with that jutsu if he wanted to.*
> 
> Hmm I wonder what that means. What is between those lines for us to implicitly take in given part 2 events



He still put him in a coma  



> Wonder why he didn't cut Kurenai's head off gatou style



He tried to slit her throat, but she ducked. I mean shit, she's an elite Jounin. I have no difficulty believing Itachi can low dif her, but she'd be able to dodge a few strikes before getting killed. 



> wonder why he didn't lolfinger genjutsu kurenai and Asuma and cut there heads off and instead watched Kurenai cast first



Because Itachi didn't want too. 



> wonder why he didn't kill Itachi with Tsukuyomi, or follow up with his superior speed to kill Kakashi while *Asuma and Kurenai sat there with their eyes closed *



Because they were having a conversation, that would be rude. 



> wonder why he ordered Kisame to charge in when Gai came instead of doing it himself (as the faster one see Killer Bee exchange.)



This one is gold. He told Kisame to kill them before Gai came. It reminds me of people saying "Itachi asked Obito to kill the Uchiha children for him" because they didn't want Itachi to be a child killer.

Asking your terrorist partner to finish off the dude who is moments away from falling into a coma, and then to make Kurenai and Asuma to "disappear" is just as bad as doing it yourself. If Gai didn't show up I really doubt Itachi would go "lol nvm Kisame". 






> Here are our options.
> -You do not get to go to "Go" and collect 200 dollars.
> -You read, take in, and comprehend my post and what I am saying to you.
> -You actually respond to me point by point like a real debate instead of using walls of post to indirectly rebuttal.
> ...








> The same reason he didn't just turn on Kisame right there and then. He was Akatsuki's spy for Konoha per Hiruzen's words. He had to appear like he was trying. But Itachi was visibly and as we know, canonically, giving even like 1/3 of his best. even shouten Itachi was more aggressive



Shouten Itachi put someone in a coma?

Itachi didn't have to put Kakashi in a coma. If anything it made him look more suspicious because Kisame would wonder why he didn't kill Kakashi with it. It was unnecessary, and frankly a bit sadistic. Itachi and Kisame could've simply retreated, but no he wanted to go the extra mile and put Kakashi in a coma, and then have Kisame kill them all.

Please don't argue Itachi was a sensor who knew Gai was coming, and he also had future vision and knew Tsunade would become the 5th Hokage and heal Kakashi and Sasuke from their coma's. I mean maybe I'd give Itachi a pass if they were unconscious for a day, but they were stuck in literally coma's.




> Please Stahp.



You stahp


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 1, 2016)

> What evidence do you have to suggest Ukataka is not a threat to Kage level opponents just cause? That's literally your argument.



Naruto is an idiot and he's absolute garbage at genjutsu.  He was able to resist utakata.  Whether he would be successful at the end or not doesn't matter, because his resistance gives us a general idea where the genjutsu stands in believe it Ness and power.

His other genjutsu have better feats.  The thing I'm not doing is giving Utakata the feats of other genjutsu.  I don't know why it's a big or "Itachi underestimation" to say he'll use one of his better genjutsu on Mei, or use it with preparation, or that it has to be categorically hax.  Kurenai, for example, barely made Jonin, despite having "Itachi level genjutsu," and she wasn't treated as being teh haxxorz.  



> She me a weak genjutsu.


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## Saru (Mar 1, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Naruto is an idiot and he's absolute garbage at genjutsu.  He was able to resist utakata.  Whether he would be successful at the end or not doesn't matter, because his resistance gives us a general idea where the genjutsu stands in believe it Ness and power.




This should be rather obvious, but resisting is not the same as breaking. Naruto never _broke_ the genjutsu, and Itachi made seals to increase its strength, at which point Naruto was unable to even resist the genjutsu... So I don't know where this whole "Naruto resisted it" idea is coming from. He didn't resist Finger Genjutsu after Itachi increased its strength--he started to sweat buckets and then ended up crying. Your idea of "resisting" is very odd. Let's not even mention the fact that Itachi wasn't trying to injure anyone more than he had to in order to stall for time.

I see no reason why Itachi wouldn't be able to give Mei the finger and take her out with a kunai if he he's given the opportunity to do so.​


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## Rocky (Mar 1, 2016)

All of Itachi's genjutsu are threatening to nearly all Kage. "Threatening" doesn't mean "game-ender", though. Ephemeral wouldn't one-panel Mei, but it's another tool for Itachi to play around with. Itachi needs to force eye-contact for a binding illusion (which ends Mei), and misleading genjutsu designed to make her act in a certain way only helps him accomplish that goal. It's sorta like a clone feint.


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## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2016)

What rocky said above accurately represents to me what Kishi portrayed 

I would simply add mei being able to prevent genjutsu for as long as she can improves her standing in this match since in a straight ninjutsu battle I don't think people here would claim she would loose out to itachi


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 1, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah, unless someone has a legit genjutsu defense, like dojutsu, perfect jin or some other proven mechanic, they aren't consistently escaping it. Itachi so far landed every genjutsu he wanted to land, I absolutely have no idea how random people in battledome have a solid shot @ consistently avoiding his 100% success rate genjutsu with no evidence to back that up.



I don't have a problem with people being caught in genjutsu.  Itachi has always landed a genjutsu.  People do have counters.  For example, Mei isn't getting caught if she puts up hidden mist against an Uchiha.  But aside from that, I don't have any reason to believe she has a blanket immunity.  I have reason to believe she can resist genjutsu, and break weaker ones, as all high level ninja are generally pretty good in most categories, enough so that most people can agree on a generic "Chunin level," "Jonin level," placeholder.  She's smarter than Naruto, and she has better chakra control than Early PII Naruto, and whatever default you assign for genjutsu skill is going to be far above Naruto's.  So if Naruto can recognize and resist Utakata, I think that Mei will have a much easier time, and since she's not total garbage, she can avoid a kunai follow up.  Kishi isn't going to take someone who fought Madara and GG them with a finger point and shuriken toss.  

But Itachi's sharingan genjutsu are better and he's used them against high level ninja and as game enders, so he'll use those, and if he's up close and not allowing her to set up mist and get space, he's probably going to land an occular genjutsu and use clones or some sort of plan combing his ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu finish it.  That can happen, but it will involve some sort of fight and not absolute negative difficulty with whatever he scrapes off the top of his arsenal even if it all goes swimmingly.


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## Saru (Mar 1, 2016)

I don't think that a single person in this thread has stated that Itachi would be able to take Mei out with Finger Genjutsu alone. But Goukakyuu + Body Flicker + Finger Genjutsu + kunai (with maybe a Karasu Bunshin feint... ) seems like a winning strategy that would hardly be difficult for Itachi to execute.​


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## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2016)

Saru said:


> I don't think that a single person in this thread has stated that Itachi would be able to take Mei out with Finger Genjutsu alone. But Goukakyuu + Body Flicker + Finger Genjutsu + kunai (with maybe a Karasu Bunshin feint... ) seems like a winning strategy that would hardly be difficult for Itachi to execute.​



but we have discussed this saru. Assume the great fire ball is used. that gets countered by a water all and mei has shown tremendous speed in using 2 jutsu in succession. So water dragon is used, itachi avoids it 

is it at that point u assume finger genjutsu will be used?

because my simple argument would be considering the tiny size of fire ball why doesn't mean side step it and proceed to use hidden mist jutsu

hidden mist jutsu seems quicker on the draw everytime it was used in the manga it filled up the battlefield in 1 panel after 1 simple hand seal was used

am just saying it should be longer than what u just posted above.


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## Saru (Mar 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> but we have discussed this saru. Assume the great fire ball is used. that gets countered by a water all and mei has shown tremendous speed in using 2 jutsu in succession. So water dragon is used, itachi avoids it
> 
> is it at that point u assume finger genjutsu will be used?
> 
> ...




Water Wall would be a terrible jutsu to use in that situation because it makes Mei's line of sight blocked even longer than the initial Goukakyuu. Itachi can get behind her and attack her in all of that time. Suiryuudan would be a better choice in my opinion, but again, Itachi would still have the speed advantage. It's not going to be like Itachi and Mei use their jutsu at the same time. Itachi has faster hand seal speed, so he will attack Mei first, and in the time it takes for her react with Suiryuudan, Itachi can close in on her while going around Mei's Suiton _and_ creating a Karasu Bunshin. It's not like Itachi is going to move in a straight line to reach Mei once she uses Suiton. He'll go around it. He can approach Mei from either side or from above. 



If Mei tries to jump out of the way of Itachi's Goukakyuu, Itachi still has the offensive advantage. If Mei dodges Goukakyuu, then she's in the air, completely vulnerable and unable to change directions (which makes it difficult to not only evade things like more long-range ninjutsu and shurikenjutsu, but also attack Itachi in a productive manner because her movement in the air while attacking is limited), while Itachi is moving towards her quickly on the ground. I see no way that Mei can pressure Itachi enough to get him off her back and use Hidden Mist successfully.

It's not like she's Kisame.​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 1, 2016)

Saru said:


> This should be rather obvious, but resisting is not the same as breaking.





			
				Me said:
			
		

> He was able to resist utakata.   Whether he would be successful at the end or not doesn't matter



Ye?



> Itachi made seals to increase its strength



If Naruto had been better he'd have broken the genjutsu, and Itachi wouldn't have have had time to strengthen it.  He also did resist, as it was still not asleep when he told Naruto to be.  I think he would have gone to sleep eventually, but it wasn't like when Kakashi instantly made that ANBU go to sleep behind the bush with his sharingan.  Kakashi's worse than Itachi and that ANBU was probably at least as capable of kai as much as Naruto unless you think he's retarded stupid and Naruto level inept in the subject.


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## Itachі (Mar 1, 2016)

I think Mei can actually get off Hidden Mist since it's only one seal and Mei's pretty good in terms of handseal speed but I think that Itachi can still kill her in the mist. This is assuming that Mei goes for Kirigakure no Jutsu right off the bat though.


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## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2016)

Saru said:


> Water Wall would be a terrible jutsu to use in that situation because it makes Mei's line of sight blocked even longer than the initial Goukakyuu. Itachi can get behind her and attack her in all of that time. Suiryuudan would be a better choice in my opinion, but again, Itachi would still have the speed advantage. It's not going to be like Itachi and Mei use their jutsu at the same time. Itachi has faster hand seal speed, so he will attack Mei first, and in the time it takes for her react with Suiryuudan, Itachi can close in on her while going around Mei's Suiton _and_ creating a Karasu Bunshin. It's not like Itachi is going to move in a straight line to reach Mei once she uses Suiton. He'll go around it. He can approach Mei from either side or from above.
> 
> 
> 
> I see no way that Mei can pressure Itachi enough to get him off her back and use Hidden Mist successfully.​



water wall wont be considering in the same panel she could form the seal for water dragon. I think her ability to form seals exceeds itachi foot speed. water wall then water dragon is what she did in the manga so am basing it off that. turning a defence into an instant attack. 

itachi hand seal speed is faster. however his footspeed may not be. 


again itachi hand seal speed can be faster but he isn't going to use fire ball, she side steps it for example while using hand seals but itachi is so fast he is already behind her before she forms that 1 hand seal for hidden mist which for me is her best option

avoid the weaker small AoE fire jutsu and use hidden mist. 

using water dragon to counter could leave her exposed as u have pointed out


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## Saru (Mar 1, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Ye?




Right, the initial part of Finger Genjutsu, which was _before_ Itachi cranked the heat up on Naruto and when Naruto failed miserably at using Kai.



> If Naruto had been better he'd have broken the genjutsu, and Itachi wouldn't have have had time to strengthen it.




That's total conjecture on your part that goes beyond the scope of what was shown, and I'll add that it doesn't make much sense either given the fact that Itachi was able to monitor Naruto's progress in the genjutsu. Itachi _was *aware*_ that Naruto was attempting to dispel the genjutsu. There's no reason Itachi wouldn't be aware that Mei was attempting to break the genjutsu either. That has nothing to do with the target's ability; it has to do with Itachi's awareness inside of the genjutsu, which makes sense because genjutsu works by affecting the target's chakra flow.




> He also did resist, as it was still not asleep when he told Naruto to be.




So now the effects of the genjutsu have to be instant for Naruto to "go to sleep?" You've already repeated several times in this thread that Finger Genjutsu is weaker than Sharingan Genjutsu, so why are you using a form of genjutsu which is inherently more powerful than Finger Genjutsu to compare the effects? That's a double standard. Not all genjutsu function by knocking out the target, and you're well aware of that fact because you made a post detailing all of the different types of genjutsu.




> I think he would have gone to sleep eventually




So then why are you arguing that Naruto's performance suggests that Mei would be able to break it easily if It was never actually broken on panel? The longer it takes for the genjutsu to be broken, the better, actually.



> but it wasn't like when Kakashi instantly made that ANBU go to sleep behind the bush with his sharingan





> with his *sharingan*




Double standard.



> Kakashi's worse than Itachi and that ANBU was probably at least as capable of kai as much as Naruto unless you think he's retarded stupid and Naruto level inept in the subject.




Kakashi's Sharingan Genjutsu is worse than Itachi's Genjutsu? I'd like to see Obito have a genjutsu battle with Itachi's finger. That would be interesting.



			
				Icegaze said:
			
		

> I think her ability to form seals exceeds itachi foot speed.




So what are you trying to say? That Itachi can't dodge Mei's jutsu on foot? If you're referring to the single hand seal, Mei probably won't use a hand seal if Itachi is launching Goukakyuu at her (and his hand seal speed is greater than hers), and if she's leaping into the air, she can make the hand seal if she wants to, but she's going to be vulnerable to the second Goukakyuu coming at her, or the shuriken hurling towards her, or Finger Genjutsu...​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 1, 2016)

Saru said:


> I don't think that a single person in this thread has stated that Itachi would be able to take Mei out with Finger Genjutsu alone. But Goukakyuu + Body Flicker + Finger Genjutsu + kunai (with maybe a Karasu Bunshin feint... ) seems like a winning strategy that would hardly be difficult for Itachi to execute.​



Itachi launched a Katon and by the time B dealt with it, he was already mid way there and B had no clue. 
And right after that Itachi flanked B the moment he took his eyes off him.

Something tells me that Itachi launches a katon, forces Mei to either block it with a sution wall or counter it with a suigadan and then flanks her and there is nothing she can do about it.

If someone wants to convince me that she can, then first convince me that Mei is more reflexive and faster than B.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 1, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> He used Tsukuyomi to disable Kakashi. Then immediately after Kakashi and Kisame both comment that *Itachi could have killed Kakashi with that jutsu if he wanted to.*


I think this is a misconception though, I don't think Tsukuyomi or any genjutsu can be used to "kill" anyone aside from perhaps Kotoamatsukami but even that is different than actually killing. The line is a reference to the after effects of Tsukuyomi though, Kakashi was worn out and knowing how Itachi had him against the ropes when he was fresh (he could still react to and counter Itachi's moves), however, after taking Tsukuyomi head-on, he was in no condition to move around. He was beyond fatigued, so he is saying, if Itachi wanted to he could easily kill him because he is for all intents and purposes defenseless.


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## Dr. White (Mar 1, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> I think this is a misconception though, I don't think Tsukuyomi or any genjutsu can be used to "kill" anyone aside from perhaps Kotoamatsukami but even that is different than actually killing. The line is a reference to the after effects of Tsukuyomi though, Kakashi was worn out and knowing how Itachi had him against the ropes when he was fresh (he could still react to and counter Itachi's moves), however, after taking Tsukuyomi head-on, he was in no condition to move around. He was beyond fatigued, so he is saying, if Itachi wanted to he could easily kill him because he is for all intents and purposes defenseless.



Nope. It's very cut and dry. Kakashi claims "Why didn't he kill me". For the first time experiencing it, for it to give Kakashi that impression is very telling (once again especially with pt. 2 knowledge). The fact that Kishi then reiterated this through Kisame being surprised at Kakashi not dropping dead cements the notion.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 1, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> I think this is a misconception though, I don't think Tsukuyomi or any genjutsu can be used to "kill" anyone.



 both said it could kill.

The body can't go on with a destroyed mind. (Like in the Matrix.)



Sadness on Wheels said:


> Kurenai, for example, barely made Jonin, despite having "Itachi level genjutsu,"



Back when "Hokage level ninjutsu" was a tiny sourceless suiton.



			
				Bringer said:
			
		

> The DB blatantly says Itachi is CASTING A TECHNIQUE with IDENTICAL EFFECTS. So it isn't a reversal



The DB blatantly calls it a reversal, reflection, identical etc. Give it a break.


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## Dr. White (Mar 1, 2016)

I mean the fact that two people he didn't wanna kill got put into Coma's should be pretty telling. Even similar genjutsu we have seen like Sasuke vs Sai, or Sasuke vs Shi only last for a couple seconds to a couple of minutes.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 1, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Nope. It's very cut and dry. Kakashi claims "Why didn't he kill me". For the first time experiencing it, for it to give Kakashi that impression is very telling (once again especially with pt. 2 knowledge). The fact that Kishi then reiterated this through Kisame being surprised at Kakashi not dropping dead cements the notion.


Yeah, it's a loose statement, not referring to the technique itself but the overall battle. Kisame was surprised that his spirit didn't break, which is normal because people without the sharingan would have just passed out instantly, not that they would have been killed.



Sadgoob said:


> both said it could kill.
> 
> The body can't go on with a destroyed mind. (Like in the Matrix.).



I'm not arguing that it won't leave someone debilitated to be killed but I don't see the jutsu itself actually having the potential to kills someone. Death would mean they stop breathing, suffer an insult so great that it is irrecoverable. 

Genjutsu itself isn't really a kill first option, it works in the same way a kage bunshin for Naruto does, creating openings. It just so happens Tsukuyomi creates the largest opening and give Itachi enough time to kill the other opponent should he want to.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 1, 2016)

Within such a distance? Itachi rapes.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 1, 2016)

_*1. Itachi casts Utakata and flickers to CQC.*_

1. Mei realizes she's in realistic genjutsu.
2. Mei puts her hands together and uses the kai and escapes. 
3. Mei snaps back into reality and assesses her surroundings.
4. Mei dodges Itachi.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 1, 2016)

I'm also going to go ahead and say that Utakata is harder to kai out of than paralyzing genjutsu, because Naruto wasn't moving. He was trapped in his own mind and had no control of his body. There was no kai seal made in reality.

It's a genjutsu you need a partner to break you out of, as Jiraiya said that the kai seal isn't applicable to all genjutsu, and Chiyo said that most ninja need teammates against genjutsu users like Itachi. Kai doesn't cut it.

And notably, both Sakura and Chiyo's had to combine their effort to break Naruto out from the outside. It would be unwise for them to both focus their attention not-on-Itachi to break the genjutsu if one would've sufficed.

So special genjutsu defense is required against Itachi's genjutsu. And it's not like he doesn't have the hype as a genjutsu user for that to be true. He's literally the best genjutsu user, dead or alive, that the Alliance Intelligence knew.

-

Additionally, it was a clone jutsu. There are _many_ instances in the manga where clone jutsu are weaker than the real deal. Even Shoten Itachi's fireball was tiny relative to 100% Itachi. It's likely that 100% Itachi's Utakata is even stronger.


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## Dr. White (Mar 1, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah, it's a loose statement, not referring to the technique itself but the overall battle. Kisame was surprised that his spirit didn't break, which is normal because people without the sharingan would have just passed out instantly, not that they would have been killed.


No it is not. Kakashi was specifically commenting on the effects of Tsukuyomi.
"It felt like 3 days trapped inside that world, why didn't he just kill me?!"
Kakashi is implying Itachi could have amped the torture up much more, given how Kakashi felt after what Itachi did to him.

Kisame said Tsukuyomi breaks the spirit and that Kisame was surprised that the *mental torture* hadn't killed Kakashi.

Once again the fact that non killing intent induced Coma upon Kakashi (who himself said it could have killed him) is proof int he pudding.



> I'm not arguing that it won't leave someone debilitated to be killed but I don't see the jutsu itself actually having the potential to kills someone. Death would mean they stop breathing, suffer an insult so great that it is irrecoverable.


That's not what Kakashi was referring to in his sentence.

Tsukuyomi will kill you because of the shock and stress of actually experiencing something. It's like dying from shock, or extreme fright. You literally feel every ounce of Pain for 3 days of time. I don'tt think you're grasping the magnitude of that.



> Genjutsu itself isn't really a kill first option, it works in the same way a kage bunshin for Naruto does, creating openings.


It can create openings but it also mindfucks people.
- Shi got minfucked.
- Sai got mindfuked.
- Zetsu got vegetized and then made to spill info.
- Konan got made to give up all info.
- Kabuto got controlled after Izanami
- Ei was rendered paralyzed
- Shikaku thought people turning on eachother was Itachi controlling them.



> It just so happens Tsukuyomi creates the largest opening and give Itachi enough time to kill the other opponent should he want to.


No. Tsukuyomi, is and always has been, a jutsu that does massive pain via breaking someone mentally due to extreme Pain, experience, etc.


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## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi launched a Katon and by the time B dealt with it, he was already mid way there and B had no clue.
> And right after that Itachi flanked B the moment he took his eyes off him.
> 
> Something tells me that Itachi launches a katon, forces Mei to either block it with a sution wall or counter it with a suigadan and then flanks her and there is nothing she can do about it.
> ...



not sure anyone can considering u have made ur mind up already 

please note itachi was in the air after the katon. he had no attacked bee yet, nor could he have without bee noticing the attack, even if bee didn't see his move from point A to B

as to the second if the assumption is itachi could have killed bee if he wanted after nagato summoned then I am guessing the claim is itachi moving from point A to B and attacking is quicker than minato ability to move via hirashin from A to B after marking the target and attacking in which case

it would be futile to argue with u. horribly so 

fact remains in either of the 2 apparent blitz against bee did itachi successfully strike bee without him being able to defend himself. Bee unlike Mei prefers cqc type battles and wont rely on using things like water dragon right after a water wall. 

not many have casted 2 jutsu in succession like that.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> not sure anyone can considering u have made ur mind up already
> 
> please note itachi was in the air after the katon. he had no attacked bee yet, nor could he have without bee noticing the attack, even if bee didn't see his move from point A to B
> 
> ...



I think you got lost in your own thoughts.

Whats the point of this post 

It is pretty clear cut. Itachi can string moves rapidly one after another. People like B had trouble with him. 
Unless someone can prove to me that Mei is better suited than B to fight Itachi, meaning she has to be both more skilled @ CQC and better at dispelling illusions(or avoid them completely), she isn't going to do much here but get killed in the initial stages of the fight.



Sadgoob said:


> I'm also going to go ahead and say that Utakata is harder to kai out of than paralyzing genjutsu, because Naruto wasn't moving. He was trapped in his own mind and had no control of his body. There was no kai seal made in reality.
> 
> It's a genjutsu you need a partner to break you out of, as Jiraiya said that the kai seal isn't applicable to all genjutsu, and Chiyo said that most ninja need teammates against genjutsu users like Itachi. Kai doesn't cut it.



Thats actually a very good point.

Finger genjutsu might be weaker than sharingan genjutsu but it is the same type genjutsu which Itachi uses his finger to employ instead of his eyes.


----------



## TobiramaSS (Mar 1, 2016)

There is no way a Kage is going to lose to 3T Itachi. The fanboyism in this thread is delirious.


----------



## Sadgoob (Mar 1, 2016)

UnjustNation said:


> There is no way a Kage is going to lose to 3T Itachi. The fanboyism in this thread is delirious.



3T Itachi _easily_ beat Orochimaru and Deidara. Both beat Kages.


----------



## Saru (Mar 2, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> I guffaw at Itachi defeating kage level ninja with Utakata specifically.  Tsukiyomi>sharingan genjutsu>Utakata.  I don't think Mei couldn't be beaten with genjutsu in general, I don't think she or anyone else above early PII Naruto's genjutsu capability and intelligence will be beaten with Utakata genjutsu specifically.  There's a reason Itachi never uses Utakata over his occular genjutsu when he can help it, and why all the Utakata hype came from Itachi being so good that he could _cast_ a genjutsu at all with a finger, and not that the Utakata genjutsu was amazing.  If you look at Itachi's fights thereafter, he has never once tried for Utakata on anyone who isn't Naruto, instead exclusively favoring sharingan genjutsu.
> 
> If you treat it like, "Every genjutsu Itachi does is of the same level,"  (i.e. Utakata is as good as his Sharingan Genjutsu because it's Itachi,) that's the same as saying every ninjutsu of X Ninjutsu master is equally good because they're good at ninjutsu, and that's clearly not the case.  Fireball jutsu is not every bit as powerful as fire dragons just because Sasuke's good at katons, and every taijutsu punch from Guy is not just as good at Afternoon Tiger or his named kicks that get their own databook entries.  When you default to saying Itachi can solo with Utakata because he's soloed with genjutsu before, and genjutsu can solo, you may as well be making those other arguments as well, and that's why we part in opinion.
> 
> Do you remember when Kurenai broke out of genjutsu and dodged Itachi's kunai stab?  That's what I see happening with infinitely more ease if Itachi tried to Utakata a competent opponent and off them with shuriken.  Or when Bee broke the genjutsu and blocked Itachi's shuriken.  If he landed Utakata, and Itachi has a clone set up beforehand to take advantage to better his odds of hitting the  opening, then _perhaps_ but that wasn't what was being argued.  If instead it's an occular genjutsu like the one that held Orochimaru for a time, and he has a clone at the ready, then I can see that.




I just saw this. I'm fairly certain that not a single person in this thread said that Itachi would point and click, then defeat Mei. There were other things mentioned alongside Finger Genjutsu, then a lot of people came into the thread, ignored those other things, and tried to build up and attack the "Itachi solos with his finger" straw man. For reasons I can probably guess.​


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 2, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Tsukuyomi will kill you because of the shock and stress of actually experiencing something. It's like dying from shock, or extreme fright.


You don't know what shock is and stress would never kill you, it may cause you to slow your blood flow and make you pass out, but something psychosocial would never kill unless you made the person do it (i.e. Kotoamatsukami).


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 2, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> I'm also going to go ahead and say that Utakata is harder to kai out of than paralyzing genjutsu, because Naruto wasn't moving. He was trapped in his own mind and had no control of his body. There was no kai seal made in reality.
> 
> It's a genjutsu you need a partner to break you out of, as Jiraiya said that the kai seal isn't applicable to all genjutsu, and Chiyo said that most ninja need teammates against genjutsu users like Itachi. Kai doesn't cut it.
> 
> ...



Scans of itachi using a bigger katon

His katon are all tiny and fairly weak


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## Alex Payne (Mar 2, 2016)

Itt people not trying to understand each other. 



Saru said:


> I just saw this.* I'm fairly certain that not a single person in this thread said that Itachi would point and click, then defeat Mei.* There were other things mentioned alongside Finger Genjutsu, then a lot of people came into the thread, ignored those other things, and tried to build up and attack the "Itachi solos with his finger" straw man. For reasons I can probably guess.​


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2016)

Mei doesnt have a chance against Itachi within such a distance. Stop with your nonsense, people.


----------



## Sans (Mar 2, 2016)

Itachi has used Utakata on this entire thread.


----------



## Saru (Mar 2, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> Itt people not trying to understand each other.




I can't vouch for Strat, obviously, but I think you're taking that post out of context. Obviously Itachi can't kill anything with a mere genjutsu aside from Tsukuyomi (which is also debatable), so that should've given you some pause... If you look more closely at this thread, you would see that SoW was talking about Finger Genjutsu being able to take out Mei at the start of match as _I_ proposed Itachi would be able to do if he used Finger Genjutsu in combination with other tools in his arsenal.​


----------



## Alex Payne (Mar 2, 2016)

Except you are now taking SoW's post out of context. Yeah, gg.

<Itachi's quote about perception>


----------



## Saru (Mar 2, 2016)

Utakata too stronk.

For real tho, reread the first page.


----------



## Sadgoob (Mar 2, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> Except you are now taking SoW's post out of context. Yeah, gg.



SOW responded to him. So unless SOW responded to Saru with a bullshit strawman, then Saru's in the right context, because Saru set the context.

Yeah, gg.


----------



## Dr. White (Mar 2, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> Except you are now taking SoW's post out of context. Yeah, gg.
> 
> <Itachi's quote about perception>



Not at all you should prob read the whole thread.


----------



## Dr. White (Mar 2, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Shock is defined and categorized as something else entirely, what you are talking about isn't shock. But more to the point, the jutsu doesn't have any killing potential nor was it ever stated to in the databook.



Please stop, you don't know what you're talking about.

There are two types of shock. Biological and psychological. Biological involes blood flow and other related factors usually stemming infection, toxicity, or physical trauma. Emotional response is in response to a traumatic event in which mental trauma occurs in the brain itself hence why Kakashi went into coma.  .

Also it doesn't need to be stated in the DB *when it was inferred twice on panel in the manga by two separate characters one of which having just directly experienced it.* The databook directly backing up Kisame's lethal "collapse of the psyche" and it saying tsukuyomi causes "unfathomable amounts of mental damage" is good enough in combo.

Stop being purposefully obtuse.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Mar 3, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Please stop, you don't know what you're talking about.
> 
> There are two types of shock. Biological and psychological. Biological involes blood flow and other related factors usually stemming infection, toxicity, or physical trauma. Emotional response is in response to a traumatic event in which mental trauma occurs in the brain itself hence why Kakashi went into coma.  .
> 
> ...


That abc story isn't even referencing any medically relevant journals, loosely citing individuals that have died with preexisting medical conditions. There is no way a psychological insult automatically results in death. 

The purpose of the discussion here is Tsukuyomi and the reason it doesn't lead to death is because the respiratory centers are located in the medulla and other essential mid-brain functions are separate from the conscious mind i.e. why breathing is automatic and not something you have to think about.

If Tsukuyomi was able to play with the ARAS mechanism of the brain, then you would have something but Itachi's technique has never demonstrated this.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 3, 2016)

AP obviously read the first page.  He screencapped it.  I dare say he even understood what I attempted to convey, which is how he noticed other people didn't, and arrived at the conclusion that they didn't because they weren't trying.  As opposed to my lifelong failure extending towards my expressive talents.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 3, 2016)

My medical knowledge and training is less than Ryuzaki's but he's right.  Even if for some reason the mental trauma magically, and I mean magically, triggered physical shock, which is totally different from mental shock, you wouldn't drop dead instantly.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 3, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> My medical knowledge and training is less than Ryuzaki's but he's right.  Even if for some reason the mental trauma magically, and I mean magically, triggered physical shock, which is totally different from mental shock, you wouldn't drop dead instantly.



 But this is Naruto, so whatever the manga says, goes.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 3, 2016)

That doesn't make it okay to spread miss-information about real life.


----------



## Dr. White (Mar 3, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> That abc story isn't even referencing any medically relevant journals, loosely citing individuals that have died with preexisting medical conditions. There is no way a psychological insult automatically results in death.


Who is arguing that? It is possible to die from trauma (that is not physical). The article was to show you medical experts who agree to show you that even in real life there are instances of this. Does it happen often? No. Can it happen? Yes.

The closest thing we have in real life to Tsukuyomi is legit Torture. Are you telling me that the experience of being stabbed for 72 hours repeatedly (which remember Itachi can do anything, and didn't wanna kill Kakashi) isn't enough to cause mental trauma via experience (which catalyzes to physical trauma) affecting the brain? Wouldn't think so.

But since you seem so damn grounded in your views how about we actually do some research?

 who is chairman of the board of a hospital in Boston, let's see his medical opinion on the subject. 

*Spoiler*: __ 



"Is it possible to literally be scared to death?
Absolutely, no question about it.

Really? How does that happen?
The body has a natural protective mechanism called the fight-or-flight response, which was originally described by Walter Cannon [chairman of Harvard University's physiology department from 1906 to 1942]. If, in the wild, an animal is faced with a life-threatening situation, the autonomic (involuntary) nervous system responds by increasing heart rate, increasing blood flow to the muscles, dilating the pupils, and slowing digestion, among other things. All of this increases the chances of succeeding in a fight or running away from, say, an aggressive jaguar. This process certainly would be of help to primitive humans, but the problem, of course, is that in the modern world there is very limited advantage of the fight-or-flight response. There is a downside to revving up your nervous system like this.

How can the fight-or-flight response lead to death?
The autonomic nervous system uses the hormone adrenaline, a neurotransmitter, or chemical messenger, to send signals to various parts of the body to activate the fight-or-flight response. This chemical is toxic in large amounts; it damages the visceral (internal) organs such as the heart, lungs, liver and kidneys. It is believed that almost all sudden deaths are caused by damage to the heart. There is almost no other organ that would fail so fast as to cause sudden death. Kidney failure, liver failure, those things don't kill you suddenly.

What exactly happens in the heart when it's flooded with too much adrenaline?
Adrenaline from the nervous system lands on receptors of cardiac myocytes (heart-muscle cells), and this causes calcium channels in the membranes of those cells to open. Calcium ions rush into the heart cells and this causes the heart muscle to contract. If it's a massive overwhelming storm of adrenaline, calcium keeps pouring into the cells and the muscle just can't relax.

There is this specially adapted system of muscle and nerve tissue in the heart—the sinoatrial (SA) node, the atrioventricular node, and the Purkinje fibers—which sets the rhythm of the heart. If this system is overwhelmed with adrenaline, the heart can go into abnormal rhythms that are not compatible with life. If one of those is triggered, you will drop dead.


What is an example of one of these deadly heart rhythms?
In most cases, it's probably ventricular fibrillation that causes these sudden deaths from fear. Ventricular fibrillation basically causes the ventricles (lower chambers of the heart) to vibrate in a way that hampers their ability to deliver blood to the body.

What other emotional states besides fear could lead to these fatal heart rhythms?
Any strong positive or negative emotions such as happiness or sadness. There are people who have died in intercourse or in religious passion. There was a case of a golfer who hit a hole in one, turned to his partner and said, "I can die now"—and then he dropped dead. A study in Germany found an increase of sudden cardiac deaths on the days that the German soccer team was playing in the World Cup. For about seven days after the 9/11 terrorists attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon there was an increase of sudden cardiac death among New Yorkers."




Let's try an 

*Spoiler*: __ 



Is it really possible to be scared to death?

There's no question about it, the answer is yes, said Dr. Robert Glatter, an emergency physician at Lenox Hill Hospital in New York.

When people feel an overwhelming fear, their fight-or-flight response jumps into action. This response likely benefited early humans when they faced a menacing beast or aggressor, giving them the necessary adrenaline to either fight the attacker or flee the scene, Glatter said. [7 Weirdest Medical Conditions]

The rush of adrenaline is an involuntary response controlled by the autonomic nervous system. When faced with a fight-or-flight scenario, a person will experience rapid heart rate, dilated pupils and increased blood flow to the muscles, Glatter said.

Unfortunately, increased levels of adrenaline can damage the heart, Glatter told Live Science.

When adrenaline is released, it triggers calcium channels in the heart to open. "Calcium rushes into the heart cells, which causes the heart muscle to contract strongly," Glatter said. "Basically, in a massive response, the calcium keeps on pouring in, and the heart muscles can't relax."

If a person is scared and has a large amount of adrenaline reaching his or her heart, the individual can develop an arrhythmia called ventricular fibrillation — an uncoordinated contraction of the heart that makes it quiver, not beat regularly as it should, Glatter said.

"It ultimately leads to a drop in blood pressure, because without blood for the brain, you lose consciousness," Glatter said.

A terrifying event, be it a gun held to someone's head or a chilling Halloween trick, can trigger this disorganized heart movement, turning a scary situation into a deadly one, he said. [10 Ghost Stories That Will Haunt You for Life]

"It can happen even in normal [healthy] people," Glatter said. "It doesn't have to be a person with pre-existing heart disease, although those people would certainly be at higher risk."




you're contention that "the ABC article cites no medical research" is invalid. If you are actually apart of the field of sciences, then you realize experimentation is bound by ethics. How the fuck would you ethically conduct an experiement to see if fright could kill without exposing said people to the possibility of death...Let me give you a .

*Spoiler*: __ 



"It’s harder still to test whether dying of fright is possible ahead of time, because any laboratory experiment that proposed rounding up a group of young healthy people and attempting to scare at least some of them into sudden death—in an elaborate haunted house, maybe, or just by throwing them all into a pit of snakes and spiders—would likely be frowned upon. It’s the sort of outcome a researcher can’t really hope for. At least not openly."




Want the closest thing we can come to study wise? 
Let's go ahead and take a look at the results.

*Spoiler*: __ 



If the number "four" evokes superstitious stress in some Chinese/Japanese, and if Doyle's medical intuitions were correct, Chinese/Japanese cardiac mortality should peak on the fourth of each month. Doyle suggests that Charles Baskerville was susceptible to a stress-induced heart attack because he had a chronic heart condition. If so, chronic heart disease should display a particularly large fourth-day peak. Sir Charles' superstitious fear of an avenging, spectral hound was shared and reinforced by his neighbors; similarly, Chinese/Japanese superstitious fears are likely to be stronger where they are reinforced by large Chinese/Japanese populations. Hence, the fourth-day peak is likely to be stronger in California, which accounts for 42.6% of the Chinese/Japanese deaths under study.

These expectations are supported by our data: On the fourth, cardiac deaths are significantly more frequent than on any other day of the month, and are 7.3% higher than the 6-day average (Ratio=1.07, 95% confidence interval, 1.03-1.12). This percentage increase (7.3%) is bigger for chronic heart deaths (13%; Ratio=1.13, 1.06-1.21) and still bigger (27%; Ratio=1.27, 1.15-1.39) for chronic heart deaths in California. The fourth-day mortality peak is henceforth termed the "Baskerville effect".

Whites do not display this effect, nor is it evident for Chinese/Japanese who die from causes other than chronic heart disease (for non-heart diseases: Ratio=1.02, .99-1.05; for heart diseases other than chronic: Ratio=1.04, .98-1.09). Thus, Doyle's medical intuition was remarkably precise: in our dataset, the fourth-day peak occurs only in persons with pre-existing heart conditions.




So uhm....What is your excuse now?



> The purpose of the discussion here is Tsukuyomi and the reason it doesn't lead to death is because the respiratory centers are located in the medulla and other essential mid-brain functions are separate from the conscious mind i.e. why breathing is automatic and not something you have to think about.


A.) I know the purpose of this discussion. It does lead to death if used to maximum output as inferred twice in the manga.
B.) You seem to be lacking on knowledge on physiology/anatomy. You don't need direct damage to the medulla (which is hindbrain by the way), the thalamus, or other parts of the brain to have lethal damage. Indirect damage from tumor, edema, injury, bad chemistry, etc can all damage perihpery neurons, organs, etc. The brain is a system in combo with the rest of the body. There are a multitdue of ways to put in  a coma, or kill them via trauama. Not just having damage to the medulla...



> If Tsukuyomi was able to play with the ARAS mechanism of the brain, then you would have something but Itachi's technique has never demonstrated this.


He doesn't need to. He just needs to put his target under enough mental stress to cause secondary effects in both the brain and body as a result that lead to immediate or following death

Tsukuyomi is already been hyped twice to do this. You are literally just ignoring manga facts to suit your narrative.



Sadness on Wheels said:


> That doesn't make it okay to spread miss-information about real life.


Maybe just maybe, you should actually read up on the shit yourself instead of just taking sides based on your opinion of the posters and accusing others of spreading misinformation. Especially when you self admittedly have less knowledge on the subject.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 3, 2016)

Sooo...why did Kakashi go into a coma again? Those doctors are saying that it is possible to die from fear because the brain overdoes it on the "fight or flight response" and overloads the internal organs, primarily the heart, with adrenaline, sometimes resulting in an abnormal heartbeat not compatible with life. That isn't what happened to Kakashi, or Sasuke.


----------



## Itachі (Mar 3, 2016)

>this thread


----------



## Dr. White (Mar 3, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Sooo...why did Kakashi go into a coma again? Those doctors are saying that it is possible to die from fear because the brain overdoes it on the "fight or flight response" and overloads the internal organs, primarily the heart, with adrenaline, sometimes resulting in an abnormal heartbeat not compatible with life. That isn't what happened to Kakashi, or Sasuke.



Itachi wasn't trying to kill him. That is why Kakashi specifically says he could have died and is confused, which is reaffirmed immediately by Kisame. Itachi and Sasuke both went into a coma because they could handle the extreme trauma they received. Note the doctors didn't just say the heart gets damaged. They said the heart is the only one that would result in sudden death. Other organs still are affected by extreme trauma, *especially the brain which is the one directing all said secretion of neurotransmitter.*. Kakashi was resilient enough to stay conscious for a bit and then pealed into a coma because of brain damage. Not only is the brain consciously dealing with the trauma of Tsukuyomi (extreme Pain, fear, helplessness, all over 3 days)but also trying to hold down autonomic function. Kakashi probably died because he brain could carry out both autonomic and conscious function.

Direct Quote from the doctor

*Spoiler*: __ 



"The autonomic nervous system uses the hormone adrenaline, a neurotransmitter, or chemical messenger, *to send signals to various parts of the body to activate the fight-or-flight response. This chemical is toxic in large amounts; it damages the visceral (internal) organs such as the heart, lungs, liver and kidneys.* It is believed that almost all sudden deaths are caused by damage to the heart. *There is almost no other organ that would fail so fast as to cause sudden death. Kidney failure, liver failure, those things don't kill you suddenly."*




Which is why I said

*Spoiler*: __ 



"The brain is a system in combo with the rest of the body. There are a multitdue of ways to put in a coma, or kill them via trauama. Not just having damage to the medulla..."




and

*Spoiler*: __ 



"He doesn't need to. He just needs to put his target under enough mental stress to cause secondary effects in both the brain and body as a result that lead to immediate or following death

Tsukuyomi is already been hyped twice to do this."




sonthe fact that two non killing intent Tsukuyomi's induced coma unto Sasuke and Kakashi goes to show just how damaging the technique is, death being the high end from someone who knows about the technique and one who experienced the technique.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 3, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Other organs still are affected by extreme trauma, *especially the brain which is the one directing all said secretion of neurotransmitter.*.



So the brain itself is flooded with excessive amounts of adrenaline? If so, that answers my question.


----------



## Dr. White (Mar 3, 2016)

Rocky said:


> So the brain itself is flooded with excessive amounts of adrenaline? If so, that answers my question.


Yeah. It's created in the medulla and Kidneys, and circulated to the body via bloodstream. If it's in overload amounts the place it's coming from is gonna be overloaded from producing it in high amounts, and having it be recirculated (the reason drug effects like adderoll last for hours instead of minutes.).


*Spoiler*: __ 



"Adrenaline is produced in the medulla in the adrenal glands as well as some of the central nervous system's neurons. Within a couple of minutes during a stressful situation, adrenaline is quickly released into the blood, sending impulses to organs to create a specific response."

"Adrenaline is an important part of your body's ability to survive, but sometimes the body will release the hormone when it is under stress, but not facing real danger. This can create feelings of dizziness, lightheadedness and vision changes. Also, adrenaline causes a release of glucose, which a fight-or-flight response would use. When no danger is present, that extra energy has no use, and this can leave the person feeling restless and irritable. Excessively high levels of the hormone due to stress without real danger can cause heart damage, insomnia and a jittery, nervous feeling.
Medical conditions that cause an overproduction of adrenaline are rare, but can happen. If an individual has tumors on the adrenal glands, for example, he/she may produce too much adrenaline; leading to anxiety, weight loss, palpitations, rapid heartbeat and high blood pressure. Too little adrenaline rarely occurs, but if it did it would limit the body's ability to respond properly in stressful situations."


----------



## Alex Payne (Mar 3, 2016)

Dr. Morpheus

[YOUTUBE]035JfHSoG70[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Sans (Mar 3, 2016)

[YOUTUBE]84aIX8UPklI[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 3, 2016)

"The “fourth-day peak,” as the researchers call it, did, however, occur only in patients with pre-existing heart conditions."



"in our dataset, the fourth-day peak occurs only in persons with pre-existing heart conditions."



"Most VT occurs in people with a heart-related problem, such as scars or damage from a heart attack. Sometimes VT can last less than 30 seconds (nonsustained) and may not cause symptoms. But VT may be a sign of more-serious heart problems. If VT lasts more than 30 seconds, it will usually lead to palpitations, dizziness or fainting. Untreated VT will often lead to ventricular fibrillation."



Itachi can't control Kakashi's physical responses, or even his release of stress hormones.  Even if that goes well, and his heart floods, a healthy person has an abysmally low chance of developing ventricular tachycardia, and even if they do, it has to last more than 30 second, which it could not, and then has to trigger ventricular fibrillation, which may or may not be instantly fatal, and typically happens some minutes after the person passes out.  So Itachi would have to indirectly influence a 4-chain process with odds ranging from fair to abysmally low between each step, to take place 100% of the time.  

When Tsunade treated Kakashi, she treated his head and the mental damage, and didn't touch his heart.


----------



## Dr. White (Mar 3, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> "The “fourth-day peak,” as the researchers call it, did, however, occur only in patients with pre-existing heart conditions."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Said conditions did not apply to the control group though...Those with no mental association to the stressor increasing deaths on the day involved with the psychological trigger.



> Itachi can't control Kakashi's physical responses, or even his release of stress hormones.  Even if that goes well, and his heart floods, a healthy person has an abysmally low chance of developing ventricular tachycardia, and even if they do, it has to last more than 30 second, which it could not, and then has to trigger ventricular fibrillation, which may or may not be instantly fatal, and typically happens some minutes after the person passes out.


He defintely can. Itachi can hijack peoples sight, sound, smell, sense of movement, etc and put them in illusion crafted by himself. Tsukuyomi is going to subject him to 3 days of torutre and all the pain will be felt by his body. This is going to release a huge amount of those stress hormones in a very small amount of actual real time once he comes out of the illusion.

This is obviously trauma on another level then the sudden death I am talking about.



> So Itachi would have to indirectly influence a 4-chain process with odds ranging from fair to abysmally low between each step, to take place 100% of the time.


I don't know what you're getting at. He tortures you for 3 days perceptual time which does all that times worth of damage mentally to someone in an instant. Which is why Asuma comments Kakashi was just standing there and then collapsed. 

I could make just a huge long list of biological chains that need to happen for Kakashi to feint..and make it more than 4 chain. It clearly happened on panel and as a result of Tsukuyomi. From an Itachi not trying to kill him, just like Sasuke.



> When Tsunade treated Kakashi, she treated his head and the mental damage, and didn't touch his heart.


You seem to be confused.

I am not arguing that Kakashi got his heart injured enough to cause death. Neither did Sasuke. Like I said. Itachi wasn't trying to kill them as Kakashi noted himself. Here you will see all that just fine and dandy.

*Spoiler*: __ 



" Itachi and Sasuke both went into a coma because they couldn't handle the extreme trauma they received. Note the doctors didn't just say the heart gets damaged. *They said the heart is the only one that would result in sudden death.* Other organs still are affected by extreme trauma, especially the brain which is the one directing all said secretion of neurotransmitter.. Kakashi was resilient enough to stay conscious for a bit and then pealed into a coma because of brain damage. *Not only is the brain consciously dealing with the trauma of Tsukuyomi (extreme Pain, fear, helplessness, all over 3 days)but also trying to hold down autonomic function. Kakashi probably died(*feinted) because he brain couldn't carry out both autonomic and conscious function."*




My bringing up that Medical evidence was doublefold.
A.) To signify that mental trauma can indeed lead to biological trauma not only in the head but across the body.
B.) To directly counter you and Ryuzuki's quote of Death from fright or sudden extreme emotion being impossible

*Spoiler*: __ 





Ryuzaki said:


> That abc story isn't even referencing any medically relevant journals, loosely citing individuals that have died with preexisting medical conditions.* There is no way a psychological insult automatically results in death. *





Sadness on Wheels said:


> My medical knowledge and training is less than Ryuzaki's but he's right.  *Even if for some reason the mental trauma magically, and I mean magically, triggered physical shock, which is totally different from mental shock, you wouldn't drop dead instantly.*







*Spoiler*: __ 



"How can the fight-or-flight response lead to death?
The autonomic nervous system uses the hormone adrenaline, a neurotransmitter, or chemical messenger, to send signals to various parts of the body to activate the fight-or-flight response. *This chemical is toxic in large amounts; it damages the visceral (internal) organs such as the heart, lungs, liver and kidneys. It is believed that almost all sudden deaths are caused by damage to the heart.* There is almost no other organ that would fail so fast as to cause sudden death. Kidney failure, liver failure, those things don't kill you suddenly."

"There is this specially adapted system of muscle and nerve tissue in the heart—the sinoatrial (SA) node, the atrioventricular node, and the Purkinje fibers—which sets the rhythm of the heart. If this system is overwhelmed with adrenaline, the heart can go into abnormal rhythms that are not compatible with life. *If one of those is triggered, you will drop dead*."

"*Any strong positive or negative emotions such as happiness or sadness. There are people who have died in intercourse or in religious passion.* There was a case of a golfer who hit a hole in one, turned to his partner and said, "I can die now"—and then he dropped dead. *A study in Germany found an increase of sudden cardiac deaths on the days that the German soccer team was playing in the World Cup. For about seven days after the 9/11 terrorists attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon there was an increase of sudden cardiac death among New Yorkers*."



Yet you claimed I am misrepresenting real life by claiming mental trauma can kill?

And let's not forget tsukuyomi torture isn't exactly equivalent of the trauma most people phase that can cause these  must be why Kakahsi concurs.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 3, 2016)

There's a point where something is so statistically insignificant you just say no, and saying yes becomes misleading.

If you ask me if being shoved out of an airplane at 50,000 feet without a parachute is fatal, I'm going to say yes.  You bringing up like the 7 dudes who have lived is technically correct but basically irrelevant.  If you say no based on that, you're misleading.  The fact that a MD. would say it's true with such certainty, in the case of healthy individuals, is surprising, because nearly all doctors and researchers and the aggregate of information will basically say no, unless you have a pre-existing heart conditions.  If you read further, and closely, and studied medicine diligently, rather than as a lay-person who perused online articles, you would see that what you're pointing to is the .00000001% of "otherwise healthy" people who die.  But if you have an "otherwise healthy" person drop dead, there could have been pre-existing damage or an adverse reaction to something, or an unknown condition, but you can't tell.  So that number is probably even lower.  Kakashi is statistically more likely to fall and crack his head on cement from passing out after Tsykiyomi, and die from that.

This is all a rather fruitless cross to nail yourself to.  You're putting himself through all this because we think Tsukiyomi ends the fight via coma/total incapacitation, as opposed to him thinking it kills someone and ends the fight.  In terms of disagreements, I find myself struggling to get worked up on it, and even if I were to deliberately try a pro-Itachi slant, I would spend my efforts on something more valuable.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Mar 3, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Who is arguing that?* It is possible to die from trauma (that is not physical).* The article was to show you medical experts who agree to show you that even in real life there are instances of this. Does it happen often? No. Can it happen? Yes.
> 
> The closest thing we have in real life to Tsukuyomi is legit Torture. Are you telling me that the experience of being stabbed for 72 hours repeatedly (which remember Itachi can do anything, and didn't wanna kill Kakashi) isn't enough to cause mental trauma via experience (which catalyzes to physical trauma) affecting the brain? Wouldn't think so.


It can't happen in healthy individuals with a good immune system and no preexisting health conditions.



Dr. White said:


> But since you seem so damn grounded in your views how about we actually do some research?





Dr. White said:


> who is chairman of the board of a hospital in Boston, let's see his medical opinion on the subject.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


At 79 years old, she probably had several comorbidities if not at least one underlying systemic disease. Based on a 2013 assessment about heart disease it was estimated that 1 in 3 individuals have an underlying heart condition and approximately "37.2 percent of the 41.4 million elderly persons in the U.S. reported that they had been diagnosed with heart disease." Individuals who have heart disease and other vascular-compromising or respiratory illnesses are at significant elevated risks from dying from overstimulation of the symapthetic systems. The example of the elderly female used in this scenario as a standard for late 20s/early 30s individuals is absolutely asinine. Of course older people will have problems with circulations the elastic properties in their vessels have weakened. Therefore, when they are put in this scenario, they can die from a heart-attack due specifically to previously existing conditions. The concept I was trying to hammer home with respect to this discussion is that, if this technique was used an elderly lady, yeah, it's possible to kill her but she won't die from being tortured, she'll die because she had bad vessels. The actual jutsu itself cannot kill healthy individuals.[1]



Dr. White said:


> Let's try an
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


What the doctor explained in those terms is the basic physiology of what happens in normal average person, not under taking drugs or artificially enhancing his adrenaline. If he has an extensive amount of adrenaline in his bloodstream to the point where it would cause v-fibs, then he should be worked up for a possible pheochromocytoma or neuroblastoma having this much adrenaline is not normal for the average person. More to the point, it's quickly bound and can be excreted relatively quickly (in the form of HVA and NVA), so for someone to have levels high enough to do this, he must have several other associated conditions.



Dr. White said:


> you're contention that "the ABC article cites no medical research" is invalid. If you are actually apart of the field of sciences, then you realize experimentation is bound by ethics. How the fuck would you ethically conduct an experiement to see if fright could kill without exposing said people to the possibility of death...Let me give you a .
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


Asian populations, specifically of Japanese descent have higher incidences for vascular diseases (e.g. Takayasu's Arteritis, Takayasu's Aortitis, Takobutsu Cardiomyopathy, Kawasaki's Disease and several other heart diseases). [] This population is at risk, therefore it stands to reason that they would have larger rates of a stress-induced heart attack, especially in elderly individually. Furthermore, Kawaksaki's Disease has a 40-50% risk of developing a coronary artery aneurysm. Hence, why we treat all individuals suspected of this disease with IVIG and Aspirin [].

This is absolute bullshit, there is always a way to compile a study. All unexplained deaths are recorded and if a reason cannot be found, then an autopsy is conducted. Through the report of the autospy it can be determined how the individual passed and using this information a retrospective study can be performed. For instance, through the usage of medical records, previous medical visits, hospitalizations and etc, you can verify comorbidities, medications usage, substance abuse sexually transmitted infections and etc. 



Dr. White said:


> B.) You seem to be lacking on knowledge on physiology/anatomy. You don't need direct damage to the medulla (which is hindbrain by the way), the thalamus, or other parts of the brain to have lethal damage. Indirect damage from tumor, edema, injury, bad chemistry, etc can all damage perihpery neurons, organs, etc. The brain is a system in combo with the rest of the body. *There are a multitdue of ways to put in  a coma, or kill them via trauama. *Not just having damage to the medulla...


At times, damage to the mid-brain, pons would also interfere with the medulla (these are combined features), since the tracts pass through the same structures. No one says direct damage to the medulla results in this, the reason why people die is because the medulla is compressed secondary to their preexisting conditions (e.g. tumors, edema, malformations). The indirect damage you speak of, specifically, the edema and tumors force the medulla to herniate downward through the foramen magnum and thus compressing it. The medulla houses nerve fibers that innervate the vagus nerve (the nerve responsible for allow the heart to beat, the lungs to respire), in addition to a few others. 

People end up in a coma due to either trauma, infections, strokes, hypoglycemia ― in reality, secondary to some form of physical insult or mismanagement of care, it's not likely they end up in a coma after finding out someone died in their family or from some psychological abuse.





Dr. White said:


> A.) I know the purpose of this discussion. It does lead to death if used to maximum output as inferred twice in the manga.
> 
> He doesn't need to. He just needs to put his target under enough mental stress to cause secondary effects in both the brain and body as a result that lead to immediate or following death
> 
> Tsukuyomi is already been hyped twice to do this. You are literally just ignoring manga facts to suit your narrative.


No it hasn't, the statement never explicitly indicates that Itachi's Tsukuyomi could have killed Kakashi, it was an overall statement about the fight. At that point in time, with the MS, Itachi clearly outclassed Kakashi and Kakashi was wondering why he didn't kill him, he had multiple opportunities to do so.


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## Bringer (Mar 3, 2016)

Why does it matter if Tsukuyomi can kill Kakashi or not. Either way, if Itachi lands it Kakashi loses.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 3, 2016)

The whole "psyche" thing you are talking about is just neurons in your brain. Psychological disorders can be treated by physicaly interfering with neurons through optogenetics and such, so psychological trauma do have physical impact on the brain and depending on the severity of the trauma one can die from it.

I don't see why people think it is far fetched.


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## Itachі (Mar 3, 2016)

Itachі said:


> >this thread


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 3, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Why does it matter if Tsukuyomi can kill Kakashi or not. Either way, if Itachi lands it Kakashi loses.



By default, I was saying it has no killing potential then Dr. White over lost his shit and started saying a whole bunch of medically incorrect stuff.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 3, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Shock is defined and categorized as something else entirely, what you are talking about isn't shock. But more to the point, the jutsu doesn't have any killing potential nor was it ever stated to in the databook.





Ryuzaki said:


> By default, I was saying it has no killing potential then Dr. White over lost his shit and started saying a whole bunch of medically incorrect stuff.



The medically incorrect stuff is the reason I said anything.  

This is also why I gave you props for being more medically knowledgeable.  I would have to go pull up fact sheets and bust out to book to cross my P's and dot my Q's to write a post like yours, and it wouldn't be as good despite being in agreement.  It's like you're a practicing professional, and not a lay-person cherry-picking studies off the first page of google.


----------



## Dr. White (Mar 3, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> It can't happen in healthy individuals with a good immune system and no preexisting health conditions.


Prove it.





> At 79 years old, she probably had several comorbidities if not at least one underlying systemic disease. Based on a 2013 assessment about heart disease it was estimated that 1 in 3 individuals have an underlying heart condition and approximately "37.2 percent of the 41.4 million elderly persons in the U.S. reported that they had been diagnosed with heart disease." Individuals who have heart disease and other vascular-compromising or respiratory illnesses are at significant elevated risks from dying from overstimulation of the symapthetic systems. The example of the elderly female used in this scenario as a standard for late 20s/early 30s individuals is absolutely asinine. Of course older people will have problems with circulations the elastic properties in their vessels have weakened. Therefore, when they are put in this scenario, they can die from a heart-attack due specifically to previously existing conditions. The concept I was trying to hammer home with respect to this discussion is that, if this technique was used an elderly lady, yeah, it's possible to kill her but she won't die from being tortured, she'll die because she had bad vessels. The actual jutsu itself cannot kill healthy individuals.[1]


A.) You are not responding to the actual point. The doctor clearly states that it can happen, and from an eotional experience not dependant on extrnal physical trauama. How about you actually respond to that instead of dancing around my main point.

B.) You literally didn't read the whole thing
Who is most likely to suffer from sudden death?

*Spoiler*: __ 



"A predisposition to heart disease would probably increase your risk of sudden death, *but it happens at all ages and can happen to otherwise healthy people*."






> What the doctor explained in those terms is the basic physiology of what happens in normal average person, not under taking drugs or artificially enhancing his adrenaline. If he has an extensive amount of adrenaline in his bloodstream to the point where it would cause v-fibs, then he should be worked up for a possible pheochromocytoma or neuroblastoma having this much adrenaline is not normal for the average person.


That is not at all what he said. Did you actually read the interview? He literally explained that death from fright could happen to someone if it affected them to such an extent. Such an event would lead to sudden death because of the influx of adrenaline.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Adrenaline from the nervous system lands on receptors of cardiac myocytes (heart-muscle cells), and this causes calcium channels in the membranes of those cells to open. Calcium ions rush into the heart cells and this causes the heart muscle to contract. If it's a massive overwhelming storm of adrenaline, calcium keeps pouring into the cells and the muscle just can't relax.

There is this specially adapted system of muscle and nerve tissue in the heart—the sinoatrial (SA) node, the atrioventricular node, and the Purkinje fibers—which sets the rhythm of the heart. If this system is overwhelmed with adrenaline, the heart can go into abnormal rhythms that are not compatible with life. If one of those is triggered, you will drop dead.







> Asian populations, specifically of Japanese descent have higher incidences for vascular diseases (e.g. Takayasu's Arteritis, Takayasu's Aortitis, Takobutsu Cardiomyopathy, Kawasaki's Disease and several other heart diseases). [] This population is at risk, therefore it stands to reason that they would have larger rates of a stress-induced heart attack, especially in elderly individually. Furthermore, Kawaksaki's Disease has a 40-50% risk of developing a coronary artery aneurysm. Hence, why we treat all individuals suspected of this disease with IVIG and Aspirin [].


So why are you sidestepping the psychological variable that is scene to be correlated with specific death times?



> This is absolute bullshit, there is always a way to compile a study.


No. Experimentation is bound by ethics, which is why a bunch of child psyche stuff is banned....Like what are you talking about?

Are you seriously contending the point that experiments as such that would provide strong correlation or causation between the two subjects wouldn't be unethical?

If so I'm immediately going to stop taking you seriously.



> All unexplained deaths are recorded and if a reason cannot be found, then an autopsy is conducted. Through the report of the autospy it can be determined how the individual passed and using this information a retrospective study can be performed. For instance, through the usage of medical records, previous medical visits, hospitalizations and etc, you can verify comorbidities, medications usage, substance abuse sexually transmitted infections and etc.


And this would not be conducive to a study which is observing the direct effects of extreme amounts of trauma or mental shock in regards to it's ability to kill. It would be a post hoc analysis.



> At times, damage to the mid-brain, pons would also interfere with the medulla (these are combined features), since the tracts pass through the same structures. No one says direct damage to the medulla results in this, the reason why people die is because the medulla is compressed secondary to their preexisting conditions (e.g. tumors, edema, malformations). The indirect damage you speak of, specifically, the edema and tumors force the medulla to herniate downward through the foramen magnum and thus compressing it.


Exactly, and my point was that the complex system of the brain, CNS and PNS can show injuries not speicific to direct physical trauma to the specialized area. So Kakashi's brain getting traumatized over three days could have widespread effects not only to other parts of his brain, but his body as a whole.



> The medulla houses nerve fibers that innervate the vagus nerve (the nerve responsible for allow the heart to beat, the lungs to respire), in addition to a few others.


I know.



> People end up in a coma due to either trauma, infections, strokes, hypoglycemia ― in reality, secondary to some form of physical insult or mismanagement of care, it's not likely they end up in a coma after finding out someone died in their family or from some psychological abuse.


I agree.

But the mental trauma and sensation of pain for 3 days of absolute tortutre condensed into he body taking that in an instant is bound to lead to sensory overload, mental trauma to the neurons themselves, and a completely fuck up of internal biochemistry. This isn't comparable to someone finding out their lover passed, something like that is more likely to result in sudden death, or indirect death (like a widow stressing and being depressed leading to a disease killing her in a vulnerable emotiona and physical state).



> No it hasn't, the statement never explicitly indicates that Itachi's Tsukuyomi could have killed Kakashi, it was an overall statement about the fight.


No it wasn't. I already proved this to you with points you conviently ignore. In the same fucking breath, Kakashi was explaining and directly commenting on his experience in Tsukuyomi, being stabbed for 72 hours, which is obviously what he was referring to inside his head when thinking why didn't he kill me. Stop with the cognitive dissonance.

Kisame infers that he knows or believes Tsukuyomi to be able to kill.

That right there alone is anything > your opinion, solidly founded in the manga itself.



> At that point in time, with the MS, Itachi clearly outclassed Kakashi and Kakashi was wondering why he didn't kill him, he had multiple opportunities to do so.


you just made this up. Kakashi thought he was cash with his sharingan defense until Tsukyomi hit him.


----------



## Dr. White (Mar 3, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> By default, I was saying it has no killing potential then Dr. White over lost his shit and started saying a whole bunch of medically incorrect stuff.



You cherrypicked my use of shock (despite knowing what I meant) and decided to use the biological definition to try and claim I was using the wrong term. I was using shock in the psychological context (which there is one) in order to indicate some sort of super aroused state in which could cause the sudden death given extreme enough stimulus.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 3, 2016)

Dr. White is obviously right. Stop arguing about this stupid shit.

1. 

_Oh derp, Ryuzaki's a med student so the doctor quoted in the article is wrong._

2. Tsukuyomi is a fictional stress level no non-fiction person can experience.

_Oh, well, yeah. Still not possible in reality._

3. Kisame and Kakashi said it could kill.

_Nah, you're misinterpreting the seemingly pointblank statement_.

Jesus fucking Christ.


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## Dr. White (Mar 3, 2016)

This discussion is minor to me. Ryu is still my boy even if he hates me. I just want to know if Ryuzaki really believes there are no ethical standards dictating which experiments and practices are not kosher or if I misunderstood his reply. I may have to spawn my bat robe and report him to the local Med Board


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 3, 2016)

Using reality to contradict the manga.

 I'm thoroughly impressed.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 3, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Using reality to contradict the manga.
> 
> I'm thoroughly impressed.



Komnenos: He should switch to magical illusion power becoming reality.
PoW: That's the only argument.
Komnenos:  It can be made, I just think it's silly.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Mar 3, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> You cherrypicked my use of shock (despite knowing what I meant) and decided to use the biological definition to try and claim I was using the wrong term. I was using shock in the psychological context (which there is one) in order to indicate some sort of super aroused state in which could cause the sudden death given extreme enough stimulus.


Sorry if it came off as that, but there were some errors though and while you may not know it but some of the conclusions you make were incorrect but that's not your fault, that's because some of the sources you used weren't well written by certain standards. 


Sadness on Wheels said:


> The medically incorrect stuff is the reason I said anything.
> 
> This is also why I gave you props for being more medically knowledgeable.  I would have to go pull up fact sheets and bust out to book to cross my P's and dot my Q's to write a post like yours, and it wouldn't be as good despite being in agreement.  It's like you're a practicing professional, and not a lay-person cherry-picking studies off the first page of google.


Yeah, I'm not current on stress-induced heart attacks in healthy 25-35 year old individuals, I had to actually read up on it myself. It's nothing special, you can do it too, just go to the PubMed site and type in your parameters and read up on stuff. It's a good way to stay current.



Dr. White said:


> Prove it.


There is no medical incentive to do so. Young, healthy individuals aren't dying by the dozens because they are being scared. Individuals that are usually have some type of condition associated it with it, especially if they are young.



Dr. White said:


> A.) You are not responding to the actual point. The doctor clearly states that it can happen, and from an eotional experience not dependant on extrnal physical trauama. How about you actually respond to that instead of dancing around my main point.
> 
> B.) You literally didn't read the whole thing
> Who is most likely to suffer from sudden death?
> ...


The physician's point is based of an elderly individual, the one in the story, Mary who was supposedly thought to have a heart attack after 



Dr. White said:


> That is not at all what he said. Did you actually read the interview? He literally explained that death from fright could happen to someone if it affected them to such an extent. Such an event would lead to sudden death because of the influx of adrenaline.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


I highlighted the bold because the system is rarely ever overloaded with adrenaline. Adrenaline is conjugated and excreted in the forms of HVMA and VMA very rapidly. The only scenario where this would be possible is if the individual had a tumor that exogenously secreted these hormones or the tumor was in the adrenal gland. Our body has enzymes that that rapidly breakdown epinephrine and norepinephrine as it is secreted to prevent tissue hypoxia via vasoconstriction of the arteries/capillaries.

The thing is I don't disagree with the doctors assessment but without a previously existing condition, there is no reason to assume that this would happen.



Dr. White said:


> So why are you sidestepping the psychological variable that is scene to be correlated with specific death times?


Because the population you used as an example for stress-induced heart attacks has a confounding variable (heart disease running in that population is far too high to establish a proper standard).



Dr. White said:


> No. *Experimentation is bound by ethics*, which is why a bunch of child psyche stuff is banned....Like what are you talking about?
> 
> Are you seriously contending the point that experiments as such that would provide strong correlation or causation between the two subjects wouldn't be unethical?
> 
> ...


It's not unethical as long as the retrospective studies are done with respect to the HIPAA laws. Most studies nowadays do not ever reveal any identifying information and are bound by a code of ethics to begin with. Infectious disease epidemiologists do this very often, in order to establish a symptom profile, this is how we are able to categorize that Asian, specifically Japanese and Koreans are at higher risks for certain diseases as compared to the general public. Or that Ashkenazi Jewish folk have a greater incidence of Tay Sachs and other enzyme-deficiencies. 

HOC is alternatively known as a retrospective study, and that is what I am stating should be performed in order to properly demonstrate that a stress-induced incidence is or is not present during the symptoms. Of course you would have your outliers.



Dr. White said:


> Exactly, and my point was that the complex system of the brain, CNS and PNS can show injuries not speicific to direct physical trauma to the specialized area. So Kakashi's brain getting traumatized over three days could have widespread effects not only to other parts of his brain, but his body as a whole.


The difference here is that there are specific aspects of the brain responsible for certain things. The limbic system specifically is the one to process emotion, and free fluid thought response. You could say that this portion of the brain would be more effected by stress. However, this structure is nowhere near located to the midbrain, pons and medulla.  



Dr. White said:


> But the mental trauma and sensation of pain for 3 days of absolute tortutre condensed into he body taking that in an instant is bound to lead to sensory overload, mental trauma to the neurons themselves, and a completely fuck up of internal biochemistry. This isn't comparable to someone finding out their lover passed, something like that is more likely to result in sudden death, or indirect death (like a widow stressing and being depressed leading to a disease killing her in a vulnerable emotiona and physical state).


You're trying to make this out into a shock that isn't normal by human standards but you want to attribute inhuman levels of torture somehow? 



Dr. White said:


> No it wasn't. I already proved this to you with points you conviently ignore. In the same fucking breath, Kakashi was explaining and directly commenting on his experience in Tsukuyomi, being stabbed for 72 hours, which is obviously what he was referring to inside his head when thinking why didn't he kill me. Stop with the cognitive dissonance.
> 
> Kisame infers that he knows or believes Tsukuyomi to be able to kill.
> 
> ...


There was a pause after that though, from my perspective, it felt more as Kakashi was a making a general statement about the overall battle. I don't specifically ever hearing or reading about Tsukuyomi having the potential to kill and I read through the databook entries. Was it ever mentioned in his novel?


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## Saru (Mar 3, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> There was a pause after that though, from my perspective, it felt more as Kakashi was a making a general statement about the overall battle. I don't specifically ever hearing or reading about Tsukuyomi having the potential to kill and I read through the databook entries. Was it ever mentioned in his novel?




Yes. He killed someone with Tsukuyomi.


*Spoiler*: _Skip to the bottom_ 





			
				Itachi Shinden said:
			
		

> Itachi carefully monitored his breathing as he listened to the conversation just down the hall.
> 
> The room was lit by lamplight, coming from the corner.
> 
> ...


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 3, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> This discussion is minor to me. Ryu is still my boy even if he hates me. I just want to know if Ryuzaki really believes there are no ethical standards dictating which experiments and practices are not kosher or if I misunderstood his reply. I may have to spawn my bat robe and report him to the local Med Board


I'm not sure what you mean by unethical, whatever but as long as you can perform a retrospective study with the correct standards, it's not unethical. Anyway, yeah, I don't hate you or whatever, discussions are supposed to happen, might as well see them through.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 4, 2016)

In the Shinden she dies by old age.  Mental old age.  Which manages to be stupider than any of the other arguments for Tsukiyomi, and completely unrelated to the way in which Dr. White says Tsukiyomi can kill.

I always figured Kakashi meant Itachi could have killed him when he was defenceless and his allies had their eyes closed.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 4, 2016)

That's what I figured too, Sharingan Kakashi then couldn't keep up with Itachi there.


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## Itachі (Mar 4, 2016)

^ Pretty much my opinion on Kakashi's comment.


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## Dr. White (Mar 4, 2016)

Itachі said:


> ^ Pretty much my opinion on Kakashi's comment.



It makes absolutely no sense. Had it come not directly after Kakashi broke down the technique, and then immediately followed by kisame being surprised about him surviving than ok, we wouldn't even be talking. But to ignore the context of their comments, and pass it off as nothing, despite us now knowing Itachi didn't wanna kill Kakashi and sasuke and they still needed top grade healing, is just asinine Imo. But to each their own, I mean I fucks with Kakashi too, but this dude Kakashi was paralyzed by Oro's glare man. You telling me a full killing intent Itachi can't do much worse in 3 days/reality control?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 4, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> In the Shinden she dies by old age.  Mental old age.  Which manages to be stupider than any of the other arguments for Tsukiyomi, and completely unrelated to the way in which Dr. White says Tsukiyomi can kill.
> 
> I always figured Kakashi meant Itachi could have killed him when he was defenceless and his allies had their eyes closed.



Unless it is a mistrans, I think Kakashi clearly means that Itachi could have pushed him further with Tsukiyomi and killed him.


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## Itachі (Mar 4, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> It makes absolutely no sense. Had it come not directly after Kakashi broke down the technique, and then immediately followed by kisame being surprised about him surviving than ok, we wouldn't even be talking. But to ignore the context of their comments, and pass it off as nothing, despite us now knowing Itachi didn't wanna kill Kakashi and sasuke and they still needed top grade healing, is just asinine Imo. But to each their own, I mean I fucks with Kakashi too, but this dude Kakashi was paralyzed by Oro's glare man. You telling me a full killing intent Itachi can't do much worse in 3 days/reality control?



If Tsukuyomi's killing potential was mentioned, emphasised or listed in the DB I'd take it seriously. Nothing of the sort was emphasised, instead it was time manipulation that set it apart from other Genjutsu. Having a Genjutsu that kills would really set it apart, no?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 4, 2016)

Now we don't take shit in the manga seriously if databook doesn't confirm it ? 


The wording doesn't make sense.
If Kakashi was talking about Itachi physicaly attacking and killing him following Tsukiyomi he'd say "why isn't he attacking now?" instead of"why didn't he kill me?"

I think it is 100% clear cut, and isn't open to debate.

But again, I'm assuming the translation is correct.


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## Itachі (Mar 4, 2016)

If Itachi's Tsukuyomi could kill don't you think the lethal aspect of it would be more emphasised instead of its control over time? I mean, I'd be more scared if someone told me that a _Genjutsu_ could actually kill than if someone told me that it could control time. I just don't think Kishimoto intended for it to be a lethal technique.


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## Dr. White (Mar 4, 2016)

Itachі said:


> If Itachi's Tsukuyomi could kill don't you think the lethal aspect of it would be more emphasised instead of its control over time? I mean, I'd be more scared if someone told me that a _Genjutsu_ could actually kill than if someone told me that it could control time. I just don't think Kishimoto intended for it to be a lethal technique.



It was emphasized twice. Why would Kisame be surprised Kakashi survived if he didn't think it had the potential to kill?

Why would Kakashi immediately after saying "Damn that shit was crazy and felt like 3 days. Say " why didn't he kill me"?. This notion that he was talking about the millisecond in between Tsukuyomi ending and him falling is nonsense. Grammatically it comes right after his deduction of his experience in Tsukuyomi, and refers obviously to him being stabbed for 3 days. Which then correlates back to us later finding out Itachi's intentions.

If non killing intent Tsukuyomi is coma, what do you suppose a pissed off Itachi could do at max?


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## Dr. White (Mar 4, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Now we don't take shit in the manga seriously if databook doesn't confirm it ?
> 
> 
> The wording doesn't make sense.
> ...



Where are FlamingRain and Rocky to help is in matters not of Tsunade or Ei origin :blindeiandtsunade


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## Itachі (Mar 4, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> It was emphasized twice. Why would Kisame be surprised Kakashi survived if he didn't think it had the potential to kill?
> 
> Why would Kakashi immediately after saying "Damn that shit was crazy and felt like 3 days. Say " why didn't he kill me"?. This notion that he was talking about the millisecond in between Tsukuyomi ending and him falling is nonsense. Grammatically it comes right after his deduction of his experience in Tsukuyomi, and refers obviously to him being stabbed for 3 days. Which then correlates back to us later finding out Itachi's intentions.
> 
> If non killing intent Tsukuyomi is coma, what do you suppose a pissed off Itachi could do at max?



My point still stands. Why wouldn't the Databook mention that Tsukuyomi could kill, _if Tsukuyomi could kill then why wasn't lethality its thing?_ Time control was Tsukuyomi's thing, just like how the changing of reality was Izanagi's thing, because it transcended normal Genjutsu. In my opinion, if Tsukuyomi could kill it definitely would have been outright mentioned and used to hype Itachi instead of just implied. Danzo said that Sasuke's Genjutsu was shit because it couldn't warp time, the control of time was definitely Tsukuyomi's schtick and I don't buy that the warping of time would have been emphasised if Tsukuyomi could be lethal.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 4, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Now we don't take shit in the manga seriously if databook doesn't confirm it ?
> 
> 
> The wording doesn't make sense.
> ...



"If the power difference between us is this great, why didn't he use a lethal technique?"

Itachi could have used Ameterasu to light up Kakashi, or any of the other big guns, or destroyed him with the difference in their level.  But instead he used genjutsu.


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## Itachі (Mar 4, 2016)

Viz said:
			
		

> Kakashi: What speed...! I couldn't follow his sign-weaving at all...Furthermore, that he would use the shuriken in his right hand as a decoy to distract me...While launching a suiton attack at my feet. Impressive.
> Itachi: Trust you, Kakashi, to have such a sharp sense of perception...Indeed.
> Kurenai: A Shadow Doppel-ganger?!! He's super human...!!![
> 
> ...


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## Dr. White (Mar 4, 2016)

Itachі said:


> My point still stands.


Your point doesn't stand because manga takes precedence of lack of presence in the databook...



> Why wouldn't the Databook mention that Tsukuyomi could kill, _if Tsukuyomi could kill then why wasn't lethality its thing?_


Because the manga does?
The DB mentions it as the strongest genjutsu, undefeatable by non Uchiha with equal or greater skill in genjutusu, and a jutsu that collapses the psyche without exception...*Which directly lines up with Kisame's description and how he thought the jutsu propagated death.*




> Time control was Tsukuyomi's thing, just like how the changing of reality was Izanagi's thing, because it transcended normal Genjutsu.


No, Tsukuyomi's thing was completele dominion of mental world that has it's affect cast over a second in the real world, and it's seoncdary effects was causing actual experience of everything in said world which could kill, hence Kakashi's analysis and Kisame's comments.



> In my opinion, if Tsukuyomi could kill it definitely would have been outright mentioned


It was and you have refused to answer me back in both of my questions to people in the manga who've mentioned it as capable. For what reason, idk.



> and used to hype Itachi instead of just implied. Danzo said that Sasuke's Genjutsu was shit because it couldn't warp time, the control of time was definitely Tsukuyomi's schtick and I don't buy that the warping of time would have been emphasised if Tsukuyomi could be lethal.


Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi. Just because sasuke lacked the time aspect of his genjutsu does not mean Itachi's jutsu is limited to one quality...You're are arbitrarily trying to limit it despite on panel proof.


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## Dr. White (Mar 4, 2016)

Are you seriously posting this as proof he wasn't talking about his time in tsukuyomi 


> Originally Posted by Viz
> Kakashi: What speed...! I couldn't follow his sign-weaving at all...Furthermore, that he would use the shuriken in his right hand as a decoy to distract me...While launching a suiton attack at my feet. Impressive.
> Itachi: Trust you, Kakashi, to have such a sharp sense of perception...Indeed.
> Kurenai: A Shadow Doppel-ganger?!! He's super human...!!![
> ...


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## Itachі (Mar 4, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Your point doesn't stand because manga takes precedence of lack of presence in the databook...
> 
> Because the manga does?
> The DB mentions it as the strongest genjutsu, undefeatable by non Uchiha with equal or greater skill in genjutusu, and a jutsu that collapses the psyche without exception...*Which directly lines up with Kisame's description and how he thought the jutsu propagated death.*
> ...



The comment that Kakashi made is not outright proof for Tsukuyomi being able to kill. Kakashi definitely could have been talking about the battle in a general sense, since Itachi could have rushed and soloed them with ease. Especially since Kakashi was making comments about Itachi's speed and how hard he was to follow. I don't understand why you're disregarding this as a possibility just because Kakashi made that comment after Tsukuyomi. You're acting like there's infallible proof for Tsukuyomi's lethality when there's not. Kisame also never said that Tsukuyomi could kill, I posted the Viz above. The only thing that points to Tsukuyomi being able to kill in the Manga is Kakashi's comment, again, if Tsukuyomi was able to kill then I believe that the lethality would have been its selling point. Lethality in a Genjutsu definitely takes precedence over controlling time, no matter how elaborate it is.


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## Itachі (Mar 4, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Are you seriously posting this as proof he wasn't talking about his time in tsukuyomi



I didn't have any agenda, I just posted the Viz because Grimm was unsure about the translation...


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 4, 2016)

I want to take a moment to point out that it is 3 tomoe Itachi in this match.


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## Dr. White (Mar 4, 2016)

Itachі said:


> The comment that Kakashi made is not outright proof for Tsukuyomi being able to kill. Kakashi definitely could have been talking about the battle in a general sense, since Itachi could have rushed and soloed them with ease.


< Neither would it's effects being in the DB, just like Ama being hotter than the sun. You know what's more reliable? Listening to the victim of said jutsu , especially one as smart as Kakashi 
< You are adding ambiguity in order to avoid admitting you are wrong. The whole three sentences from Kakashi internally to Kisame talking about is about tsukuyomi. Hence why he tals about Tsukuyomi right before saying Itachi could have killed him, and why he says "it's (referring to Tsuku still) affecting me.".



> I don't understand why you're disregarding this as a possibility just because Kakashi made that comment after Tsukuyomi. You're acting like there's infallible proof for Tsukuyomi's lethality when there's not.


Because kishi was obviously making a point to us by having Kakahsi make that frank and blatant comment. And the fact that without killing intent a  medical issue as severe as coma was induced and they needed Tsunade to heal them.....



> Kisame also never said that Tsukuyomi could kill, I posted the Viz above. The only thing that points to Tsukuyomi being able to kill in the Manga is Kakashi's comment, again, if Tsukuyomi was able to kill then I believe that the lethality would have been its selling point. Lethality in a Genjutsu definitely takes precedence over controlling time, no matter how elaborate it is.


Okay, the claim the "tsukuyomi can kill" is much more evidenced the claim "It cannot kill". 
- MS alone gives jutsu potent enough to control Kyuubi.
- Shi was frightened into collapse as well as Sai.
- Tsukuyomi is a top tier genjutsu named after the God tier of all Genjutsu.
- Obito was able to keep Torune in a comatose state with genjutsu alone despite his body overall being dead.
- Kakashi, a firsthand victim of the technique, noted himself that Tsukuyomi could kill him, and pondered why Itachi didn't pour on the gas.

What evidence, besides lack of databook specificity is there to disprove Kakashi's analysis? I mean by that logic, I should stop using his analysis of Tsukuyomi to suggest Tsukuyomi breaks partner method.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 4, 2016)

Itachі said:


> If Itachi's Tsukuyomi could kill don't you think the lethal aspect of it would be more emphasised instead of its control over time? I mean, I'd be more scared if someone told me that a _Genjutsu_ could actually kill than if someone told me that it could control time. I just don't think Kishimoto intended for it to be a lethal technique.



Most databook entries don't emphasize the jutsu's killing potential because looking @ their effects in the manga you can clearly see that they can kill. 

I think anything that can put you in a coma has potential of killing you.




Sadness on Wheels said:


> "If the power difference between us is this great, why didn't he use a lethal technique?"



Is this a legit trans or interpretation ? 
Because if it is the latter than its a pretty shitty interpretation.



> Originally Posted by Viz
> 
> Kakashi: (Thinking) Unh... I see... Three days in that realm and less than a moment passed in this one... Why not kill me? If he wanted to he could...
> (Saying out loud) Ugh... It's still... affecting me...
> Kisame: Hm....after all that the fool's spirit is intact...meanwhile you've overused those eyes of yours, you know that's dangerous.



Again, not open to debate.


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## Itachі (Mar 4, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> < Neither would it's effects being in the DB, just like Ama being hotter than the sun. You know what's more reliable? Listening to the victim of said jutsu , especially one as smart as Kakashi
> < You are adding ambiguity in order to avoid admitting you are wrong. The whole three sentences from Kakashi internally to Kisame talking about is about tsukuyomi. Hence why he tals about Tsukuyomi right before saying Itachi could have killed him, and why he says "it's (referring to Tsuku still) affecting me.".
> 
> Because kishi was obviously making a point to us by having Kakahsi make that frank and blatant comment. And the fact that without killing intent a  medical issue as severe as coma was induced and they needed Tsunade to heal them.....
> ...



I'm not talking about the Databook only, I'm talking about the Manga in general. Sorry but if Tsukuyomi could kill then why is that not fucking emphasised? Like, why does nobody mention that? Apart from the fleeting comment that Kakashi made, of course. I don't understand why you're glossing over that when it's clearly important, a Genjutsu that kills is scarier than a Genjutsu that can torture you for 3 days straight. Again, do you seriously think that it wouldn't be mentioned again? To me, thinking that Kakashi's statement was general as opposed to Tsukuyomi-centred is much more logical than thinking that Tsukuyomi can kill even though it's never been outright mentioned. I mean, sure Genjutsu can do some shit but Genjutsu being able to kill is something that's not normal. If Itachi could do it then I believe that Tsukuyomi would have been used to hype Itachi to heaven and back, 'the only lethal Genjutsu user in the world'.

Stop talking bullshit, I don't think I'm wrong. If I thought I was wrong then I'd admit it. I just don't think that one comment Kakashi made is concrete evidence for Genjutsu being able to kill. You're acting like that one comment is infallible and there's no debate as to whether Tsukuyomi could kill or not. Honestly, I think you're the one that's being stubborn as fuck here since you refuse to acknowledge that there's a chance that Tsukuyomi can't kill. 

Those random Genjutsu feats don't support the notion that Itachi can kill with Tsukuyomi since killing is clearly something that normally transcends Genjutsu, like how Izanagi transcends most Genjutsu because it can actually change reality.


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## Dr. White (Mar 4, 2016)

> Itachі said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not talking about the Databook only, I'm talking about the Manga in general. Sorry but if Tsukuyomi could kill then why is that not fucking emphasised? Like, why does nobody mention that?
> ...


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## Itachі (Mar 4, 2016)

wait...



> NINJUTSU; KEKKEI GENKAI; Tsukuyomi
> User: Uchiha Itachi
> Supplementary; Close range; Rank: none
> 
> ...





> -Since attacks in the spiritual realm have no power to physically wound or kill, it bestows an unfathomable amount of mental damage.





> no power to physically wound or kill





> no power to physically wound or kill





> no power to physically wound or kill


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## Bringer (Mar 4, 2016)

gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg


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## Dr. White (Mar 4, 2016)

Itachі said:


> wait...


Yeah, you are misinterpreting that. Things happening in the Tsukuyomi world cannot physically wound Kakashi or kill him directly which is why he didn't die of bleeding out over 3 days and being stabbed with swords in all of his organs.

The mental damage does occur though, which is why Kakashi was biologically in a coma and needed healing, and hence why I fished those articles to show an taxing psychological experience can fuck up the brain to release toxic amounts of neuro transmitters and flood the heart..

Hence the

*Spoiler*: __ 



 "As a result,* the poor prisoner can only wait until the collapse of their psyches...!! Even a body made of iron or the speed of light are powerless before this jutsu, which is the reason why it is feared as the most powerful.
*
Sharingan is the Kekkei Genkai of the clan labelled as the most powerful, the Uchiha clan. Even among those who have Sharingan, that jutsu cannot be operated without having Mangekyou, which is its culminating point. Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors... And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness. Once could say this is truly a God-given jutsu solely allowed to those blessed with Uchiha blood and prodigious aptitudes.

Captions

-An inner hell as eternal as Heaven and Earth. *The grip held onto the principles of all creation thoroughly annihilates one's heart and soul!!*"



*By your logic the brain is not apart of the body and mental damage isn't biological damage.* 

This doesn't dismiss Kakashi saying it could have killed him had Itachi amped it, or erase Itachi's lack of killing intent.


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## Itachі (Mar 4, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Yeah, you are misinterpreting that. Things happening in the Tsukuyomi world cannot physically wound Kakashi or kill him directly which is why he didn't die of bleeding out over 3 days and being stabbed with swords in all of his organs.
> 
> The mental damage does occur though, which is why Kakashi was biologically in a coma and needed healing, and hence why I fished those articles to show an taxing psychological experience can fuck up the brain to release toxic amounts of neuro transmitters and flood the heart..
> 
> ...



You don't think I took that all into account before I posted it?


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## Dr. White (Mar 4, 2016)

Itachі said:


> You don't think I took that all into account before I posted it?



Tsukuyomi = mental world. Pain in Mental world transfered to Mind perception. Horrific Mind perception = brain damage = Body = _______?

Edit: Please don't respond, I told my self I would stop and ended up back in here


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 4, 2016)

Itachі said:


> wait...



"Attacks in the spiritual realm"

It s talking about the sword stabs inside the genjutsu, not the genjutsu itself.
Nice try tho.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 4, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I'm not talking about the Databook only, I'm talking about the Manga in general. Sorry but if Tsukuyomi could kill then why is that not fucking emphasised? Like, why does nobody mention that?



The fuck? Both Kisame and Kakashi emphasized that after its first use.



Itachі said:


> Since attacks in the spiritual realm have no power to physically wound or kill



Don't be a basic bitch. It clearly says _in the spiritual realm_ i.e. why somebody can be stabbed repeatedly through the heart for 72 hours without dying, experiencing the pain of death ten thousand times over.

Do you really think that someone can get worked up enough over having a gun to their head and the possibility of death to trigger a reaction that results in their death, and being 'killed' repeatedly for 72 hours or more can't? Come on.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 5, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> The fuck? Both Kisame and Kakashi emphasized that after its first use.
> 
> Don't be a basic bitch. It clearly says _in the spiritual realm_ i.e. why somebody can be stabbed repeatedly through the heart for 72 hours without dying, experiencing the pain of death ten thousand times over.
> 
> Do you really think that someone can get worked up enough over having a gun to their head and the possibility of death to trigger a reaction that results in their death, and being 'killed' repeatedly for 72 hours or more can't? Come on.



Yeah, I don't think it was intended like that, even the databook doesn't explore the lethality of the technique, rather that it's just an obscene amount of torture time. And the databook normally makes out every technique to be killer technique.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 5, 2016)

We have people in this series who can shoot their minds out of their bodies.  When their bodies is devoid of a mind it goes comatose.  0% mind.  But it's not dangerous to the life of the body.  I can't imagine Tsukiyomi can do more than destroy a mind 100%, and leave them eternally comatose.  Which is effectively dead, but not dead dead.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 5, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> We have people in this series who can shoot their minds out of their bodies.  When their bodies is devoid of a mind it goes comatose.  0% mind.  But it's not dangerous to the life of the body.  I can't imagine Tsukiyomi can do more than destroy a mind 100%, and leave them eternally comatose.  Which is effectively dead, but not dead dead.



I don't think it is the same thing. There is no damage on the brain in the first case.


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