# Are the Sannin really Akatsuki level?



## Charmed (Apr 24, 2017)

I used to think they can take on some of the Akatsuki, but now I don't know...

So, Jiraiya and Orochimaru both had trouble with a 4 Tailed Naruto, which can't even control his power.
Tsunade had trouble fighting Kabuto and she was the worse Kage getting destroyed by the 5 Susanoo, even Mei was doing better and she had no Regeneration.

The best thing they've done is fight Hanzo and survive. Orochimaru tried killing Old Hiruzen, but it wasn't even a clear win.

On the other hand we have the Akatsuki as ninja that are capable of great things, one of this things, is capturing a Jinchuuriki alive with little to no effort., conquering entire nations, killing Kages, having "inmortality", and many more.
Even Hidan defeated the 2 Tails without a scratch on his robe, and yeah Kakuzu didn't loose any heart either.

¿What have the Sannin done that's even better than the Akatsuki members? or Are they really that powerful?
or Are they just overrated?


@Troyse22  now I understand that Kisame actually is on another level than Jiraiya, but still, he's in the middle of my Akatsuki Rank n.n

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## Android (Apr 24, 2017)

People who can read the manga w/o adding their biased subjective interpretation to the fold would know that Sannin are portrayed above all the Akatsuki bar Tobi, Itachi, and Pain/Nagato. Tho i'd argue Jman can still beat sick living Itachi.

People who are dumb, trolling, can't/couldn't/aren't able to read the manga, would try to argue otherwise.


Thread/

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## Troyse22 (Apr 24, 2017)

They're definitely Akatsuki level, but they're not near Obito, Nagato, Kisame or Itachi, they're quite a significant step down, sitting comfortably around Kakuzu and Deidara level, almost right in the middle of the Akatsuki.

I truly doubt anyone whos read the manga honestly believes any sannin>the top 4 of the Akatsuki, and if they do then they presumably didn't read past P1.

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## Charmed (Apr 24, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> People who can read the manga w/o adding their biased subjective interpretation to the fold would know that Sannin are portrayed above all the Akatsuki bar Tobi, Itachi, and Pain/Nagato. Tho i'd argue Jman can still beat sick living Itachi.
> 
> People who are dumb, trolling, can't/couldn't/aren't able to read the manga, would try to argue otherwise.
> 
> ...


And can you explain how you believe they're portrayed above when they can't even handle an imperfect Jinchuuriki?
and still, the Akatsuki members were capturing Jinchuuriki and Biju with no effort at all, and this is a fact.


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## Charmed (Apr 24, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> They're definitely Akatsuki level, but they're not near Obito, Nagato, Kisame or Itachi, they're quite a significant step down, sitting comfortably around Kakuzu and Deidara level, almost right in the middle of the Akatsuki.
> 
> I truly doubt anyone whos read the manga honestly believes any sannin>the top 4 of the Akatsuki, and if they do then they presumably didn't read past P1.


Yeah, but what did the Sannin do in their lives to be portrayed on the level of the Akatsuki, when the Sannin have trouble facing an imperfect Jinchuuriki, and the Akatsuki capture with no problem Jinchuuriki and Biju.


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 24, 2017)

Charmed said:


> I used to think they can take on some of the Akatsuki, but now I don't know...


 Oh boy. 



> So, Jiraiya and Orochimaru both had trouble with a 4 Tailed Naruto, which can't even control his power.


 Four-Tailed Naruto would decimate the majority of the Akatsuki bar Kisame due to match-up purposes, and he nearly killed base Jiraiya who had no killing intent yet he still defeated Naruto. Also, Orochimaru fought him to a stalemate and that was Orochimaru whose arms were sealed away and host body was starting to fail. 


> Tsunade had trouble fighting Kabuto


 Kabuto was stated by Jiraiya and Orochimaru to be on Kakashi's level, and Kakashi himself stated that Kabuto's abilities can render him obsolete if he doesn't get back in shape soon. Not to mention Tsunade was rusty and recovering from her hemophobia, and Kabuto was amped up on a military rations pill.





> and she was the worse Kage getting destroyed by the 5 Susanoo, even Mei was doing better and she had no Regeneration.


 Err what? Tsunade performed better than all of the Kage bar Onoki in battle against Madara Uchiha. Did you even read the fight? 



> The best thing they've done is fight Hanzo and survive. Orochimaru tried killing Old Hiruzen, but it wasn't even a clear win.


 No.... just no.... there is so many things wrong with this post I don't even know how to respond. 



> On the other hand we have the Akatsuki as ninja that are capable of great things, one of this things, is capturing a *Jinchuuriki alive with little to no effort*.


Most of who aren't even Kage-level and are barely worth mentioning. 





> conquering entire nations, killing Kages, having "inmortality", and many more.
> Even Hidan defeated the 2 Tails without a scratch on his robe, and yeah Kakuzu didn't loose any heart either.


 The Sannin have hype and feats just as great as all of that and even more.



> ¿What have the Sannin done that's even better than the Akatsuki members? or Are they really that powerful?
> or Are they just overrated?


  I could write several paragraphs explaining how strong all of the Sannin are portrayed overall but I'm not so sure if it's worth it.

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## Android (Apr 24, 2017)

Charmed said:


> And can you explain how you believe they're portrayed above when they can't even handle an imperfect Jinchuuriki?
> and still, the Akatsuki members were capturing Jinchuuriki and Biju with no effort at all, and this is a fact.


L-O-L .

Who of the Sannin had problems with Jin Naruto ? Jiraiya who had all the intentions in the world to not hurt Naruto, or sick Orochimaru who was on drugs ? 
Here's the Akatsuki's record for you :
- Your fav Sasori got punked by Sakura and old Chiyo .
- Hidan got solo'd by Shikamaru .
- Kakuzu was vaporized by base Naruto.
- Deidara got his ass smoked by Hebi Sasuke who canonically admitted inferiority to Orochimaru.
- Kisame was running like a bitch from Jiraiya's most basic summoning technique .
- Konan got solo'd neg diff by Jiraiya's oil .
- Zetsu is a fodder .

And when did the Akatsuki faced any perfect Jinchuriki ? the only perfect Jin they faced was Bee, and guess what happened ?


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## Charmed (Apr 24, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Oh boy.
> 
> Four-Tailed Naruto would decimate the majority of the Akatsuki bar Kisame due to match-up purposes, and he nearly killed base Jiraiya who had no killing intent yet he still defeated Naruto. Also, Orochimaru fought him to a stalemate and that was Orochimaru whose arms were sealed away and host body was starting to fail.
> Kabuto was stated by Jiraiya and Orochimaru to be on Kakashi's level, and Kakashi himself stated that Kabuto's abilities can render him obsolete if he doesn't get back in shape soon. Not to mention Tsunade was rusty and recovering from her hemophobia, and Kabuto was amped up on a military rations pill. Err what? Tsunade performed better than all of the Kage bar Onoki in battle against Madara Uchiha. Did you even read the fight?
> ...


Please explain, I want to learn and compare :'3

And Naruto 4 tails doesn't even control his powers, yet the Akatsuki have been capturing Jinchuuriki and Biju with no effort at all.
And as we see in the Manga, Orochimaru and Jiriaya had trouble with this uncontroled Naruto.

Yes, Tsunade waas doing the worse, I mean she had regeneration and super srtrength. still she was more injured than Mei, actually Mei wasn't even injured like at all.


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## Android (Apr 24, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> They're definitely Akatsuki level, but they're not near Obito, Nagato, Kisame or Itachi,


Kisame canonically got one shotted by base Jiraiya .
One shotted

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## blackguyinpinksuit (Apr 24, 2017)

Jiraiya is straight up itachi tier with his SM. 

Tsunade would be a itachi tier akatsuki with all her medic techs and summoning considered.

Oro with the 4 edos he had during the war would make him stronger than all the akatsuki/the strongest akatsuki members theoretically. Otherwise he's in jiraiya's boat.

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## Ishmael (Apr 24, 2017)

Just a thread that baited sannin wankers will enjoy to spew bs in.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 24, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Your fav Sasori got punked by Sakura and old Chiyo .



He let himself die per Chiyo's statement.



GuidingThunder said:


> Hidan got solo'd by Shikamaru



You mean Kakashi and Choji with him? And Kakashi's the one who got Kakuzu's blood. Shikamaru can't do shit alone.

Your downplay is ridiculous.



GuidingThunder said:


> Kakuzu was vaporized by base Naruto.



As if plot didn't carry the kid 



GuidingThunder said:


> Deidara got his ass smoked by Hebi Sasuke who canonically admitted inferiority to Orochimaru.



Who was a huge counter to Deidara, literally Raiton vs Doton, and we saw what that looked like when Kakashi killed one of Kakuzu's hearts.



GuidingThunder said:


> Kisame was running like a bitch from Jiraiya's most basic summoning technique .





No point, you're just being intentionally ignorant with this topic. I've told you why this was invalidated so many times, but -snip- you ignore it 

-snip-


GuidingThunder said:


> Konan got solo'd neg diff by Jiraiya's oil



Because Konan is trash



GuidingThunder said:


> Zetsu is a fodder .



Yup

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## Charmed (Apr 24, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> L-O-L .
> 
> Who of the Sannin had problems with Jin Naruto ? Jiraiya who had all the intentions in the world to not hurt Naruto, or sick Orochimaru who was on drugs ?
> Here's the Akatsuki's record for you :
> ...



The Akatsuki don't have killing intent , they have capture intent, which is more difficult , still they did that with no effort at all.
And yeah, you gave me the reason, Jiriaya and Orochimaru both had trouble with an imperfect Jinchuuriki that doesn't even control his power.


- _Your fav Sasori got punked by Sakura and old Chiyo ._ Yet, he killed the strongest Kazekage as a teen, something any Sannin was capable of.
- _Hidan got solo'd by Shikamaru_ . Yet Hidan captured the 2 tailes without a single scratch. Something Shikamaru can't ven dream of...
- _Kakuzu was vaporized by base Naruto_. Yet, Kakuzu captured the 2 tailes without even taking away his robe nor burning hearts
- _Deidara got his ass smoked by Hebi Sasuke who canonically admitted inferiority to Orochimaru. _Yet Deidara almost killed Sasuke besides the raiton and plot armor and was prepared to take down Orochimaru by himself
- _Kisame was running like a bitch from Jiraiya's most basic summoning technique . _And he gave Killer Bee a run for his money without even trying that hard
- Konan got solo'd neg diff by Jiraiya's oil . Yet she managed to kill Obito, something the Sannin would dream of doing so.
- _Zetsu is a fodder_ . Yes he is, but he's not ment for battle.


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## Android (Apr 24, 2017)

Charmed said:


> The Akatsuki don't have killing intent , they have capture intent, which is more difficult , still they did that with no effort at all.
> And yeah, you gave me the reason, Jiriaya and Orochimaru both had trouble with an imperfect Jinchuuriki that doesn't even control his power.
> 
> 
> ...


It's like you can't even read .
I said non of the Akatsuki faced any perfect Jin, at all, aside from Kisame who faced Bee who could've easily stomped him if he went BM .
Non of them faced any Jinchuuriki who could've use TBB in it's V2, only Kyuubi Jinchuriki could use it in that form.
Kisme didn't face any Bijuu, and he doesn't even know what Bijuu look like.
Yugito's BM was so small and probably can't even compete with Kn4 .


Charmed said:


> - _Your fav Sasori got punked by Sakura and old Chiyo ._ Yet, he killed the strongest Kazekage as a teen, something any Sannin was capable of.
> - _Hidan got solo'd by Shikamaru_ . Yet Hidan captured the 2 tailes without a single scratch. Something Shikamaru can't ven dream of...
> - _Kakuzu was vaporized by base Naruto_. Yet, Kakuzu captured the 2 tailes without even taking away his robe nor burning hearts
> - _Deidara got his ass smoked by Hebi Sasuke who canonically admitted inferiority to Orochimaru. _Yet Deidara almost killed Sasuke besides the raiton and plot armor and was prepared to take down Orochimaru by himself
> ...


I don't give a rat's ass what these guys could or couldn't do, the important thing is that they got their asses handed to them by people far less powerful than any Sannin.


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## Karyu Endan (Apr 24, 2017)

Charmed said:


> And can you explain how you believe they're portrayed above when they can't even handle an imperfect Jinchuuriki?
> and still, the Akatsuki members were capturing Jinchuuriki and Biju with no effort at all, and this is a fact.



Where did you get _no effort at all_ from?

Gaara would have flat-out defeated Deidara if he didn't have to concern himself with protecting Suna.
Hidan and Kakuzu were _losing_ their fight with Yugito during what we saw of it and as far as we know they only managed to capture her because she didn't have knowledge on how their immortality techniques worked.
Kisame claims that Roshi was a difficult opponent, and later on the battle with Killer B only went as well as it did because B couldn't unleash all of Gyuki around Ponta and Kisame _wasn't planning on capturing B in the first place_.

Let's also remember that it took Nagato's _strongest technique_ just to slow Naruto down once he went KN6. Seems like not even the most versatile and arguably the most overall powerful member of Akatsuki can easily dispatch an "imperfect Jinchuriki" going by your logic. Yes, Nagato is nowhere near his full power during the Pain arc, but still:

By no means did Akatsuki capture their Jinchuriki with _no effort at all_.



Charmed said:


> Yeah, but what did the Sannin do in their lives to be portrayed on the level of the Akatsuki, when the Sannin have trouble facing an imperfect Jinchuuriki, and the Akatsuki capture with no problem Jinchuuriki and Biju.



It seems that everyone in this thread has forgotten that _*Orochimaru was at one point a member of the Akatsuki*_*.
*
The fact that a member of the Sannin, and not even their strongest solo combatant at that, was considered _powerful enough to be a member_ would be evidence enough that Sannin and Lower Akatsuki lie within the same ball park tier. Yes, the Sannin are certainly weaker than the Dojutsu trio given Itachi vs. Orochimaru and Pain vs. Jiraiya, but they're portrayed on the same level as the rest of them.

Except _maybe_ Kisame. Imma give Troyse22 the benefit of the doubt, even if I put him clearly below the Dojutsu trio (but above everyone else in Akatsuki).

And definitely Hidan; he's a tier _below_ the Sannin. Even Tsunade would stomp him with prior knowledge.

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## Bonly (Apr 24, 2017)

Charmed said:


> I used to think they can take on some of the Akatsuki,* but now I don't know*...



That's sad, you should reread the manga because they are clearly on the Akatsuki lvl in general with only a few members being above them.



> So, Jiraiya and Orochimaru both had trouble with a 4 Tailed Naruto, which can't even control his power.



Most of the Akatsuki would also have trouble. 



> Tsunade had trouble fighting Kabuto



Tsunade was rusty when she fought Kabuto and even then Kabuto had to constantly ran away until she got tired in order to put up a fight.



> and she was the worse Kage getting destroyed by the 5 Susanoo, even Mei was doing better and she had no Regeneration.



You're wrong here. Mei got punched by a Susanoo clone and was about to be stabbed and killed by another had it not been for Gaara saving her. That means that Mei would've died while Tsunade would still be fighting and alive so no Mei did worst.



> On the other hand we have the Akatsuki as ninja that are capable of great things, one of this things, is capturing a Jinchuuriki alive with little to no effort., conquering entire nations, killing Kages, having "inmortality", and many more.
> Even Hidan defeated the 2 Tails without a scratch on his robe, and yeah Kakuzu didn't loose any heart either.



Orochi has his own "immortality" and he has also killed a Kage along with creating his own nation and what not so yeah. Most of what some of the Akatsuki members did can be done by the Sannin with different degrees of difficulty 



> ¿What have the Sannin done that's even better than the Akatsuki members? or Are they really that powerful?
> or Are they just overrated?



Yes they are that powerful and in general they are rated fairly, honestly outside of people that rank characters in a 1V1 mindset and handful of people who are fanboy of characters that don't match up to the Sannin but think otherwise, I don't think there's to many people that would call them overrated.

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## Blu-ray (Apr 24, 2017)

How is this even a question when a Sannin _was a member of Akatsuki?_

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## Gibbs (Apr 24, 2017)

Akatsuki level is way too vague of a range. a single White Zetsu is fodder, while Obito is God tier.


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## Braiyan (Apr 24, 2017)

Jiraiya had Konan compromised in one move, took out 3 Pain bodies, and garnered praise from Nagato to the extent that he thought Jiraiya could've won under more favourable conditions. Thus he is Akatsuki level.

The mere fact that Hidan is an Akatsuki member and would be screwed against Tsunade, and the fact that Orochimaru himself _was an Akatsuki member_ would show that the rest of the Sannin are Akatsuki level as well.


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 24, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Please explain, I want to learn and compare :'3


 I strongly disagree with your premise, but you're polite so I'll discuss it with you. 



> And Naruto 4 tails doesn't even control his powers, yet the Akatsuki have been capturing Jinchuuriki and Biju with no effort at all.


 Naruto not having control over his powers in that state doesn't matter, because he is strong enough to defeat most of the Akatsuki in that state anyway. Also no, the Akatsuki haven't. The Akatsuki has been capturing imperfect Jinchuriki most of who aren't even Kage-level as I've stated before. I have no idea where you got the idea that the Akatsuki has been going around decimating tailed beasts left and right. 


> And as we see in the Manga, Orochimaru and Jiriaya had trouble with this uncontroled Naruto.


 Who would kill most of the Akatsuki anyway.



> Yes, Tsunade waas doing the worse, I mean she had regeneration and super srtrength. still she was more injured than Mei, actually Mei wasn't even injured like at all.


 No she wasn't. Tsunade is the one who busted open Madara's Susanoo and sent him flying: earning her praise directly from Madara himself and having him acknowledge her abilities. Tsunade was also the main reason why Madara opted to swap places with a Wood Clone to avoid getting sealed by Gaara after Tsunade's attack. The reason Tsunade was injured is because she was using the SoHT to her advantage, as she could afford to be impaled and survive.  Tsunade also overwhelmed one of the Susanoo Wood Clones on her own, whilst Mei on the other hand, was literally about to be killed by one of them had Gaara not helped her. Tsunade also deflected Madara's Fire Release tech at the end that was about to mortally wound/kill the other Kage while Mei was too exhausted to do anything. Are you sure you read the fight recently?

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## Gibbs (Apr 24, 2017)

Fried Fish anyone?

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## Charmed (Apr 24, 2017)

Karyu Endan said:


> Where did you get _no effort at all_ from?
> 
> Gaara would have flat-out defeated Deidara if he didn't have to concern himself with protecting Suna.
> Hidan and Kakuzu were _losing_ their fight with Yugito during what we saw of it and as far as we know they only managed to capture her because she didn't have knowledge on how their immortality techniques worked.
> ...



Yes but the fact that they captured Jinchuuriki without even a scratch says a lot to me, example: Hidan and Kakuzu vs Yugito.
Nop, I didn't forget Orochimaru was an Akatsuki member, yet he demonstrated he couldn't handle an imperfect Jinchuuriki, non of his jutsu were effective.
Deidara only had trouble against Gaara couse, Gaara had the advantage (Desert) and Deidara was so confiddent that he didn't even prepare himself for battle, Sasori stated this, and the fact that Sasori was watching the entire fight and in the end he was mad at Deidara because he made him wait "I told you to come prepared, don't make me wait" , it's  like sayin "I could've done better than you".


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## Android (Apr 24, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Yes but the fact that they captured Jinchuuriki without even a scratch says a lot to me, example: Hidan and Kakuzu vs Yugito.
> Nop, I didn't forget Orochimaru was an Akatsuki member, yet he demonstrated he couldn't handle an imperfect Jinchuuriki, non of his jutsu were effective.


I'm starting to doubt whether or not you read the Manga ...

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## Charmed (Apr 24, 2017)

Blu-ray said:


> How is this even a question when a Sannin _was a member of Akatsuki?_



I didn't forget that.
Orochimaru was a member, but demonstrated that non of his jutsu are effective against an imperfect Jinchuuriki.
So he had trouble same as Jiraiya did.
But the other members actually managed to capture Biju and Jinchuuriki without that much trouble at all.


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## Charmed (Apr 24, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> I'm starting to doubt whether or not you read the Manga ...



you don't say :'v

He really didn't show any jutsu to deal with a Jinchuuriki, although he's the most hyped of the 3 Sannin.


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## Android (Apr 24, 2017)

Charmed said:


> you don't say :'v
> 
> He really didn't show any jutsu to deal with a Jinchuuriki, although he's the most hyped of the 3 Sannin.


Weird how did you ignored the fact the his arms were sealed and couldnt use any hand seals to perform his Ninjutsu.
And weird how you ignored that he was in a sick failing body, yet he went toe to toe with the most powerful V2 Jinchuuriki in the manga with the greatest firepower, a Jinchuuriki that would make the rest of the imperfect Jins that the Akatsuki cptured look like pussy cats.


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## Soljah (Apr 24, 2017)

As stated above the sanin can beat the majority of the Akatsuki handily outside of Obito,itachi,Pain.  Which really I say j-man/oro could take Obito before he became the juubi.  I say this because kakashi beat him and I put jman and oro a decent amount above him.  The sannin been fighting wars since they were kids on Kakazu trumps them in age and experience and even then he wouldn't be able to last against them.


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## Charmed (Apr 24, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Weird how did you ignored the fact the his arms were sealed and couldnt use any hand seals to perform his Ninjutsu.
> And weird how you ignored that he was in a sick failing body, yet he went toe to toe with the most powerful V2 Jinchuuriki in the manga with the greatest firepower, a Jinchuuriki that would make the rest of the imperfect Jins that the Akatsuki cptured look like pussy cats.



Because I didn't, besides, Full Oro + Edo Tensei + Prep + Knowledge had trouble defeating Old Hiruzen, he ain't that strong.
Nope, V2 Jinchuuriki have been defeated by the likes of Kisame, without that much trouble, something   Orochimaru couldn't even achieve.
And other Akatsuki members captured Biju when facing them in their Megazord version.
Being trashed around by Naruto 4 Tailes it's not even a fight, all of Oro's Jutsu were rendered useless.


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## Gibbs (Apr 24, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Because I didn't, besides, Full Oro + Edo Tensei + Prep + Knowledge had trouble defeating Old Hiruzen, he ain't that strong.
> Nope, V2 Jinchuuriki have been defeated by the likes of Kisame, without that much trouble, something   Orochimaru couldn't even achieve.
> And other Akatsuki members captured Biju when facing them in their Megazord version.
> Being trashed around by Naruto 4 Tailes it's not even a fight, all of Oro's Jutsu were rendered useless.


The only jutsu Orovhimaru used during the KN4 vs Oro fight IIRC was Summoning jutsu.


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## Android (Apr 24, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Because I didn't, besides, Full Oro + Edo Tensei + Prep + Knowledge had trouble defeating Old Hiruzen, he ain't that strong.
> Nope, V2 Jinchuuriki have been defeated by the likes of Kisame, without that much trouble, something   Orochimaru couldn't even achieve.
> And other Akatsuki members captured Biju when facing them in their Megazord version.
> Being trashed around by Naruto 4 Tailes it's not even a fight, all of Oro's Jutsu were rendered useless.


Pain the leader of the Akatsuki had big trouble with the same Jin Orochimaru faced, i guess this means he isn't an Akatsuki member huh  ? what you don't understand is Kurama is stronger than the rest of the Bijuu combined, he'd rape most of the Akatsuki members in his V2 form w/o any effort .
Hiruzen is a solid kage fighter, so Oro having problems with him is no surprise .
So, let's stop the baiting in this thread, you aren't fooling anyone


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Apr 24, 2017)

Charmed said:


> now I understand that Kisame actually is on another level than Jiraiya



Please dont fall into this trap lol, Base Jiraiya is more then capable of defeating Kisame, anyways the Sannin are definitely Akatsuki lvl, ill make a ranking for more clarity....

Nagato 
Obito (no Rinnegan)
SM Jiraiya 
Itachi
Base Jiraiya 
Konan/Tsunade 
Orochimaru (p1 edo)
Sasori 
Kisame
Kakazu 
Deidera 
Hidan
Zetsu

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## Android (Apr 24, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Please dont fall into this trap lol, Base Jiraiya is more then capable of defeating Kisame, anyways the Sannin are definitely Akatsuki lvl, ill make a ranking for more clarity....
> 
> Nagato
> Obito (no Rinnegan)
> ...


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Apr 24, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


>



Yes

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## NightingaleOfShadows (Apr 24, 2017)

O I'm sorry @Troyse22 I forgot to put Kisame being fused Samehada is equal to Nagato my bad

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## Veracity (Apr 24, 2017)

The things I'm reading throughout this thread oh my lord.

• How is Tsunade not Akatsuki Level when she fought better than other _actual_ Kage against Madara Uchiha *and* defeated Oro while also handicapped? 

• How is Jirayia not Akatsuki Level when he punked an Akatsuki member in one panel( Konan) then proceeded to dominate 3 paths of Pain *and* has already forced two Akatsuki to flee on sight?( Itachi and Kisame)

• How is Oro not Akatsuki Level when he literally was an Akatsuki member *and* even stalemated 4K Naruto without proper ninjutsu and a failing body? 

These are not "alternative" facts lol. These are irrefutable manga features

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## Ayala (Apr 24, 2017)

I hold the Sannin around the level of guys like Deidara, Sasori and the likes, with the exception of SM Jiraiya and war arc Edo Tensei.

The Akatsuki themselves surely didn't hold the normal Sannin in a higher regard than that (or were more particularly impressed by them), and neither did anyone else outside the Akatsuki during all the duration of part 2, not in a single panel.

Just like the Sannin have their feats, showings and hype, the Akatsuki do, and they're definitly comparable.

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## Sapherosth (Apr 24, 2017)

The Sannins are just a step above Kisame, right below the Akatsuki Trio.

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## Tri (Apr 24, 2017)

What's "Akatsuki level"..? The sheer difference in power between the members makes it hard to consider it a rank to be given. One of the Sannin was already an Akatsuki member in his own right so that's a pretty clear cut answer if there is one. I don't generally agree with the current way they're viewed, but that tends to happen when a large portion of people are fans of them.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The_Conqueror (Apr 24, 2017)

Charmed said:


> So, Jiraiya and Orochimaru both had trouble with a 4 Tailed Naruto, which can't even control his power.


Jiraiya had morales orochimaru did not have his Justus. Jiraiya was the same guy who could control cloacked Naruto with a piece of paper.


Charmed said:


> Tsunade had trouble fighting Kabuto and she was the worse Kage getting destroyed by the 5 Susanoo, even Mei was doing better and she had no Regeneration


Tsunade was rusty when she faced kabuto. It was made clear .
What did mei do better than Tsunade?
-Healed the kages
-broke madaras susanoo
-had prior knowledge on Pollens 
-boosted ohnokis jinton


Charmed said:


> The best thing they've done is fight Hanzo and survive. Orochimaru tried killing Old Hiruzen, but it wasn't even a clear win.


Old hiruzen was still considered the strongest among of the 5  kages. 


Charmed said:


> On the other hand we have the Akatsuki as ninja that are capable of great things, one of this things, is capturing a Jinchuuriki alive with little to no effort


Gaara even having to protect his village and with morales took away deidaras arm
Other were just mostly off panel
3 tails did not have a host
Kisame had a hard time with roshi
And they were not perfect jin and except yagura other ninjas werenot worth mentioning.


Charmed said:


> What have the Sannin done that's even better than the Akatsuki members? or Are they really that powerful?


Tsuande
-Leaf won the second great ninja war die to her prowess
- Healed whole konoha during pains arc

Jiraiya: Took on Pain at his turf the strongest akatsuki without prior knowledge and Still got very far. Even gathered Intel
Has sage mode which is a rarity
Etc etc
You can go on and on but those who see the bad part of it will never change . they are still below Minato and pain tho around or below itachis level depending on situations.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 24, 2017)

Manga Canon:

Obito/Nagato
Pain
Itachi/*Sannin* (more or less...itachi tends to have a lead tho)
The Rest

/Thread


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## Mithos (Apr 24, 2017)

Bimbo-3 said:


> I hold the Sannin around the level of guys like Deidara, Sasori and the likes, with the exception of SM Jiraiya and war arc Edo Tensei.
> 
> The Akatsuki themselves surely didn't hold the normal Sannin in a higher regard than that (or were more particularly impressed by them), and neither did anyone else outside the Akatsuki during all the duration of part 2, not in a single panel.
> 
> Just like the Sannin have their feats, showings and hype, the Akatsuki do, and they're definitly comparable.



I don't know how you can say that because (a) Kisame, who most posters would put around the level of Deidara and Sasori, admitted that he wasn't in the same _league_ as Jiraiya; (b) Kisame couldn't believe someone was strong enough to "kill" Orochimaru; (c) Karin said (and Sasuke didn't dispute) that someone capable of killing Orochimaru shouldn't have trouble with someone like Deidara; and (d) Pain gave Jiraiya the highest level of praise.


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## Mar55 (Apr 24, 2017)

"Akatsuki level" isn't a thing, seeing as different members can fall into different tiers altogether. Which, they do, as the manga makes clear.

Obviously, as many said, Oro was literally an Akatsuki member, and the other 2 are his relative equals. That automatically answers this foolish question. Though, so does everything else concerning them and their hype in the manga.


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## Charmed (Apr 24, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Please dont fall into this trap lol, Base Jiraiya is more then capable of defeating Kisame, anyways the Sannin are definitely Akatsuki lvl, ill make a ranking for more clarity....
> 
> Nagato
> Obito (no Rinnegan)
> ...



Well I don't know friend, I just started to see the Sannin not that strong as the Akatsuki, but that doesn't change my Akatsuki Ranking.
Nagato> Pain > Obito > Itachi >= Konan >=Sasori> Kakuzu>=Kisame > Deidara> Hidan > Zetsu.


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## Charmed (Apr 24, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Pain the leader of the Akatsuki had big trouble with the same Jin Orochimaru faced, i guess this means he isn't an Akatsuki member huh  ? what you don't understand is Kurama is stronger than the rest of the Bijuu combined, he'd rape most of the Akatsuki members in his V2 form w/o any effort .
> Hiruzen is a solid kage fighter, so Oro having problems with him is no surprise .
> So, let's stop the baiting in this thread, you aren't fooling anyone



Not really couse I remember Naruto back then didn't have SM, and an army of Summons at his disposal.
I also, remember Pain in a far weaker version, couse of the CST. When Pain regained his powers he simply captured Naruto with ease.
Yes Hiruzen is still a Kage, pretty much on the level of Orochimaru with his weak version of Eod Tensei, I think that's clear, that doesn't put him above the Akatsuki.


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## Charmed (Apr 24, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Jiraiya had morales orochimaru did not have his Justus. Jiraiya was the same guy who could control cloacked Naruto with a piece of paper.
> 
> Tsunade was rusty when she faced kabuto. It was made clear .
> What did mei do better than Tsunade?
> ...



Yes but the Akatsuki didn't have killing intent either, which is in theory far more difficult, still, they managed to capture Jinchuuriki and Biju with ease. Is far as I know that paper seal, only controls Naruto if he has less than 4 Tails right? I mean once he gets to number 4 the seal is useless.

Yeah, but still, Kabuto stated he sucked at taijutsu, but Tsunade couldn't even land a hit on them, she has pretty bad accuracy, she ain't that rusty, couse I remember her  dodging a Kunai that Naruto throw at her wit her eyes closed (don't know if this is anime only).
So her being rusty is something I really can't believe. So she didn't land a hit on Kabuto, she ain0t landing any hits to any of the Akatsuki.

Uhm, actually, Tsunade is more of a support character, she heals and stuff, but she sucks at dodging, I mean, even Sakura has better evasive feats than Tsunade. I've  never seen Tsunade dodge attacks from any hightier character, she always gets hit. Tsunade is supposed to be the best medical ninja ever, so she in theory should be able to have huge evasion and reading patterns skill, but still, she was the ONLY kage that was indeed getting hit by all of the Susano attacks, while all the other kage were not, this seems to me, that the other Kage are just better, and speaking of Mei, she seems faster and more evasive than Tsunade, couse Mei has no defensive feats, yet she still was pretty much intact when facing the Susano, Tsunade was on her knees spitting blood and stabbed twice.

So was Sandaime Kazekage, "Once considered the strongest kage of all" not just speaking of the Kazekage, and I believe, Hiruzen was alive as well as Onoki and Sandaime Raikage, when the 3rd Kazekage was alive.

Yes but it was pretty clear that the Akatsuki are a bunch of bad guys that are made for capturing Biju and Jinchuuriki with little to no effort, and it was very clear that Orochimaru and Jiriaya both had trouble fighting a Jinchuriki that couldn't even control himself...

And finally, all the hype for the Sannin, the Akatsuki have it and better.

i.e  Tsunade battled Chiyo and Hanzo, but never won, Sasori was far superior than Chiyo.
i.e Jiraiya SM spent 80% of the time fighting animal path alone pretty much...
i.e Orochimaru had trouble defeating Old Hiruzen, even with Edo Tensei, Knowledge and prep. He killed Rasa with Kimimaro and Kabuto's help too, yet, Sasori managed to kill the Strongest Kazekage ever when Sasori was just a teenager and the Sandaime was pretty much at his prime.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 24, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> "Akatsuki level" isn't a thing, seeing as different members can fall into different tiers altogether. Which, they do, as the manga makes clear.
> 
> Obviously, as many said, Oro was literally an Akatsuki member, and the other 2 are his relative equals. That automatically answers this foolish question. Though, so does everything else concerning them and their hype in the manga.




Sannin level isn't a thing either, but people use it. The gap between Oro and Tsunade is pretty big.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mar55 (Apr 24, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Sannin level isn't a thing either, but people use it. The gap between Oro and Tsunade is pretty big.


Are you adding to my point? Neither are a thing, and Akatsuki level is far more broad.

That's mostly irrelevant to the overall point, which I'm sure you know.


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Apr 24, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Well I don't know friend, I just started to see the Sannin not that strong as the Akatsuki, but that doesn't change my Akatsuki Ranking.
> Nagato> Pain > Obito > Itachi >= Konan >=Sasori> Kakuzu>=Kisame > Deidara> Hidan > Zetsu.



Well one of the Sannin used to be part of the Akatsuki (Orochimaru, that alone sums things up), Kisame stated that he was inferior to Base Jiraiya. Then you have Tsunade whos easily mid Kage while most of the Akatsuki are in the same tier... and this is just at the top of my head so its honestly self explanatory whether or not the Sannin are "Akatsuki level" or not

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Troyse22 (Apr 24, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Yes but the Akatsuki didn't have killing intent either, which is in theory far more difficult, still, they managed to capture Jinchuuriki and Biju with ease. Is far as I know that paper seal, only controls Naruto if he has less than 4 Tails right? I mean once he gets to number 4 the seal is useless.
> 
> Yeah, but still, Kabuto stated he sucked at taijutsu, but Tsunade couldn't even land a hit on them, she has pretty bad accuracy, she ain't that rusty, couse I remember her  dodging a Kunai that Naruto throw at her wit her eyes closed (don't know if this is anime only).
> So her being rusty is something I really can't believe. So she didn't land a hit on Kabuto, she ain0t landing any hits to any of the Akatsuki.
> ...



Tsunade come war arc is superior to her P1 self, that I don't doubt, but she didn't grow exponentially like some people here like to think she did. She's only unquestionably superior to Kabuto due to Katsuyu, she honestly isn't an impressive Shinobi without Katsuyu.

SM Jiraiya is still inferior to Orochimaru, that remained a constant theme throughout P1 and P2, even after the introduction of SM (Jiraiya couldn't bring Oro back to Konoha because Jiraiya was too weak per his own admission). Again, Jiraiya without Fukasaku and Shima isn't even a remotely impressive Shinobi, superior to Tsunade still, but nothing that's gonna take on the Top 4 of the Akatsuki, he won't even come close to challenging them even in his most powerful form (SM with Fukasaku and Shima)

Oro in my eyes is still the strongest of the Sannin, and even then he's a lackluster Shinobi for all the hype and praise hes gotten. He got constantly bitch slapped by Itachi, it was sad frankly because I thought Yamata no Orochi was the most lit shit ever until it got torn apart by V4. He lacks D/C as well, something that's required for most kage level Shinobi, but he can be an exception depending on who he's fighting, he can beat Kage level Shinobi. For example, he can beat Minato in my eyes, but he can't even come close to opposing Itachi, and I see Itachi and Minato as extremely close, almost equals with Itachi being slightly superior.

The Sannin all in all aren't really great, the only ones who think so are the people who either wank the shit out of their hype, or haven't read past P1 or are just being intentionally ignorant of manga facts.

Anyone whos read the manga, at least up until all of the Akatsuki are dead and gone would know that their feats show them on a much more impressive level than the Sannin, at least the Top 4 of the Akatsuki. Itachi, Naruto and Bee battling Nagato, and Itachi being the one who delivers the finishing, battling Kabuto, aside from Obito, the strongest Shinobi in existence at that time, and finally, negging Orochimaru on 2 seperate occasions. 

Then you have Obito...which....I mean...nothing really needs to be said to know that he's>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The Sannin. Battling Gai, KCM Naruto, Bee and Kakashi, and only being defeated because Kishi said lolfuckit (at least in his Pre-JJ form)

Then you have Kisame, who forced Might Gai into the 7th Gate, remember this was a man who was disarmed from arguably his most important piece of his arsenal (Samehada), and would have won if he had Samehada (either merging with Samehada, thus granting him the speed to dodge Hirudora or, if he's not merged, block some of the blast with Samehada, thus saving him from a near KO, and being able to regen any potential damage it may have caused). He also low (mid diffed max) Killer Bee until Samehada, due to plot, betrayed Kisame. You could argue that Bee was restricted, but Kisame being restricted was a huge factor in that he couldn't kill him, and god knows he had the opportunity. It's pretty clear, at least for any rational thinking, non-sannin wanker that Kisame>>>>>>>>Any Sannin based on feats.

Then you have Nagato....who needs no explanation, similar to Obito.

Sorry, but any of the top 4 of the Akatsuki would wipe the floor with all 3 Sannin at once, let alone 1v1.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 3


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## Veracity (Apr 24, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Yes but the Akatsuki didn't have killing intent either, which is in theory far more difficult, still, they managed to capture Jinchuuriki and Biju with ease. Is far as I know that paper seal, only controls Naruto if he has less than 4 Tails right? I mean once he gets to number 4 the seal is useless.
> 
> Yeah, but still, Kabuto stated he sucked at taijutsu, but Tsunade couldn't even land a hit on them, she has pretty bad accuracy, she ain't that rusty, couse I remember her  dodging a Kunai that Naruto throw at her wit her eyes closed (don't know if this is anime only).
> So her being rusty is something I really can't believe. So she didn't land a hit on Kabuto, she ain0t landing any hits to any of the Akatsuki.
> ...



Bruh what. Most of this post had me bamboozled.

• you claim Tsuande wasn't Rusty? Even though it was stated by Jirayia and Oro and is blatant based on her Part 2 feats? Let's also just ignore the fact that she wasn't using Katsuyu, the yin seal, SS or Byakago against Kabuto. Pretty much all her higher tier techinques.

• Tsuande sucks at dodging? She literally taught a fodder like Sakura ways to read Sasori's finger movements to predict attacks and dodged his greatest AoE attack with only a single scratch. She also made it a rule for medical ninja to be exceptional at evasion and she's the greatest medical ninja alive. Saying she sucks at dodging is conjecture.

• you also go out of your way to underestimate Tsuande against the Sussano clones all the time. Tsuande literally uses Byakago to allow herself to get hit so she can land attacks on enemies, hence the reason she was the only Kage shown hitting Sussano clones. And clearly she was going to get hit 5 v 1 against Sussano clones with much longer reach. All the other Gokage members are long range fighters and Ay held the title of fastest shinobi alive.

• Information for Chiyo vs Tsuande wasn't clear. We don't know if it was 1 vs 1 or if they had entire platoons on the battlefield. This was also before Tsuande had SS or Byakago sooo?? Same goes with their fight with Hanzo. The Sannin we're not even close to their prime.


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 25, 2017)

@Charmed Are you actually even listening to anything that anyone is saying on this thread? It's like you ignore everyone's entire arguments and keep posting what you believe, which blatantly contradicts the manga. I am legitimately baffled after reading your last post pertaining to Tsunade, it's as if you haven't read this manga at all and are using some anti-Sannin fanboy as your primary source of information. Not even Troyse's comments on this thread are that ridiculously wrong.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 3


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## The_Conqueror (Apr 25, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Yes but the Akatsuki didn't have killing intent either, which is in theory far more difficult, still, they managed to capture Jinchuuriki and Biju with ease


Who did they actually capture with ease?



Charmed said:


> Is far as I know that paper seal, only controls Naruto if he has less than 4 Tails right? I mean once he gets to number 4 the seal is useless.


You had jiraiya who was caught off and was gravely injured still reverted Naruto to his human form didn't he?




Charmed said:


> Yeah, but still, Kabuto stated he sucked at taijutsu, but Tsunade couldn't even land a hit on them, she has pretty bad accuracy, she ain't that rusty, couse I remember her dodging a Kunai that Naruto throw at her wit her eyes closed (don't know if this is anime only).


Kabuto was considered equal and compared  to an elite Jo un in kakashi. Naruto was  a  Genin
Tsuande was balantly said to have been rusty. 
Even when she got her confidence back she could use katsuyu and byakugo in the same battle. 



Charmed said:


> So was Sandaime Kazekage, "Once considered the strongest kage of all"


Really?
where was that? 



Charmed said:


> Yes but it was pretty clear that the Akatsuki are a bunch of bad guys that are made for capturing Biju and Jinchuuriki with little to no effort,


With no effort?
The only bijju captured with no effort was 3 tails which didn't have a host . 
No other jinchurikies except hachibi had a perfect Host.
Which jinchurikies  were renonwned like the sanin or kages? 




Charmed said:


> was very clear that Orochimaru and Jiriaya both had trouble fighting a Jinchuriki that couldn't even control himself...


One without jutsu other which had morales and still reverted Naruto back after being caught off guard and gravely injured




Charmed said:


> And finally, all the hype for the Sannin, the Akatsuki have it and better.


"Even if you can go toe to toe with him  I am not sure about myself. Our level re far too apart"

"If we fight we would both die and even if I had more support it wouldnot make a difference" Uchiha Itachi

"Kisame saved from being one paneled"

"If we had not kept our secrets we probably would not have won" Pain

"Taking 6 of those bodies it crazy" Hatake kakashi

"You dont understand how dangerous orochimaru is even without jutsu " Sugetsu to ems sasuke
Stalmated 4tails strongest bijju"
"You have raused quite a student sarutobi" Hashirama Senju

"I will admit you are not a weak women"Madara
"Tsuande was the reason why we won the second great ninja war . her unparalled medical  with combat skills" Jiraiya

Which Akatsuki except doujutsu trio have better hype let's see



Charmed said:


> Tsunade battled Chiyo and Hanzo, but never won, Sasori was far superior than Chiyo.
> i.e Jiraiya SM spent 80% of the time fighting animal path alone pretty much...
> i.e Orochimaru had trouble defeating Old Hiruzen, even with Edo Tensei, Knowledge and prep. He killed Rasa with Kimimaro and Kabuto's help too, yet, Sasori managed to kill the Strongest Kazekage ever when Sasori was just a teenager and the Sandaime was pretty much at his prime.


We dont know the premise regarding tsunade vs Chiyo Samdaime vs Sasori . 

Sakura and Chiyo still had sasori on his toes. You can kill a person by sneak attack there does not need to be a death battle to kill sb. 

Chiyo held tsunade in high regards.

Jiraiya fought against three paths one which nullifies ninjutsu, shared vision that counters taijutsu  and still won. Which akatsuki bar Obito/Itachi would have won in that situation?

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## ~M~ (Apr 25, 2017)

Any one of them are stronger than Hidan so by default, yes.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ayala (Apr 25, 2017)

Mithos said:


> I don't know how you can say that because (a) Kisame, who most posters would put around the level of Deidara and Sasori, admitted that he wasn't in the same _league_ as Jiraiya; (b) Kisame couldn't believe someone was strong enough to "kill" Orochimaru; (c) Karin said (and Sasuke didn't dispute) that someone capable of killing Orochimaru shouldn't have trouble with someone like Deidara; and (d) Pain gave Jiraiya the highest level of praise.



.Kisame believed it fine and simply said the one who killed Orochimaru must have been strong, and he did a good job sparing them the need to go and kill him themselves. In fact no one says anything to Deidara who's going to hunt the man that killed Orochimaru, and would have realistically won if not for Plot.

.BoS Sasuke and Hebi Sasuke and different versions, Hebi Sasuke is more powerful. Hebi Sasuke for example is confident on taking on Itachi and even took him to his limits, where Orochimaru wouldn't even bother.

.That's SM Jiraiya, whom i excluded as you saw. Jiraiya in base had trouble with Animal Path alone, and wasn't getting anywhere before getting in SM and summoning the 2 Sages.

The Jiraiya case from part 1 is something the Sannin supporters bring up a lot, but when you look at it, it's not really proof of any clear superiority.

When Jiraya showed up, neither Itachi nor Kisame bothered to deal with him, Itachi went after Sasuke, Kisame went after Naruto, giving Jiraiya plenty of time to set his jutsu (in a real battle, Itachi would have been firing a fireball in his face before he even got mid signs). From there on, Itachi told Kisame to run.

Kisame himself only talked of hype of the Sannin in comparison to the 7 Swordsmen. While Itachi said he would die were to take him on even with support (lol), which is clearly not true, and a clear contradiction given that Itachi took on and handily beat his supposed superior (outside SM).

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## theRonin (Apr 25, 2017)

Only Nagato, obito, Itachi and may be Kisame are above the Sannin.


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## Infernal Imp (Apr 25, 2017)

This thread is nonsensical and uses low end feats. Orochimaru himself was a part of the akatsuki in years past. Jiraiya mops the floor with most of their roster bar maybe the top 4. Tsunade has better showings than any of them bar the doujutsu trio with their hax. Come on man, lets not be fanboyish.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Sinevelle (Apr 25, 2017)

But are the sannin really ANBU level?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Charmed (Apr 25, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Bruh what. Most of this post had me bamboozled.
> 
> • you claim Tsuande wasn't Rusty? Even though it was stated by Jirayia and Oro and is blatant based on her Part 2 feats? Let's also just ignore the fact that she wasn't using Katsuyu, the yin seal, SS or Byakago against Kabuto. Pretty much all her higher tier techinques.
> 
> ...



Because Tsunade didn't look rusty to me, she was still good for her level, it's like saying Chiyo was rusty couse she spent years fishing and playing dead, yet she still was able to fight 100 Puppets and Satetsu. That's why I don't buy that Tsunade was rusty, her accuracy and evasive feats are just that bad, she's more of a support character, although all she needs is 1 hit, but aiming is a problem for her.

It's kinda dumb to think that Tsunade having super regeneration just likes to get stabbed in order to hit her opponents, why waste chakra like that? it makes no sense at all. Tsunade is "supposed" to be the Worlds best Medical Ninja, so she should be able to have great evasive skills, high speed, high reading patterns skill, still she didn't show any of that, if she had them she wouldn't be impaled by the susanoo with ease, not even Mei got impaled, which seems to me Mei is faster and more evasive than Tsunade.

As I said, Tsunade is more like a support character, she heals and she's good team player, but her alone, is not a big threat for Kage-tiers.

The fact is, if they actually fight (Chiyo vs Tsunade) they never injured each other that much, or else Chiyo would've been dead already if she ever got hit by Tsunade, or Chiyo wouldn't have all her 10 puppets, most people think puppets can be broken easily by the likes of Tsunade, so why Chiyo has her entire collection intact? remember Chiyo has taken before on Castles,, Hanzo and Tsunade, and Uchihas too..
So yeah Tsunade isn't that great to me, yeah we could say Tsunade didn't have her Byakugou (but she was already 30 y/o at the time...)
but still, she had Katsuyu, most people think Katsuyu is an instant win,because her acid, and becaue she is indestructible,so, why she couldn't do anything to Chiyo, or to Chiyo's puppets, or to Hanzo?

So for me, Tsunade not even with Katsuyu was able to destroy Chiyo's puppets, nor kill Chiyo, but Sasori, pretty much destroyed 9/10 of Chiyo's Puppets. Still people think Tsunade can take the likes of Sasori, she ain't killing any Akatsuki member on her own I beleve maybe Hidan, but maybe not.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Charmed (Apr 25, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Tsunade come war arc is superior to her P1 self, that I don't doubt, but she didn't grow exponentially like some people here like to think she did. She's only unquestionably superior to Kabuto due to Katsuyu, she honestly isn't an impressive Shinobi without Katsuyu.
> 
> SM Jiraiya is still inferior to Orochimaru, that remained a constant theme throughout P1 and P2, even after the introduction of SM (Jiraiya couldn't bring Oro back to Konoha because Jiraiya was too weak per his own admission). Again, Jiraiya without Fukasaku and Shima isn't even a remotely impressive Shinobi, superior to Tsunade still, but nothing that's gonna take on the Top 4 of the Akatsuki, he won't even come close to challenging them even in his most powerful form (SM with Fukasaku and Shima)
> 
> ...



For me the strongest of the Sannin is Jiraiya in SM, and for me the weakest is Orochimaru, he's more like a fraud to me couse he is the most hyped of all but as you said he lacks DC he ain't that impressive, and he always runs from the battle, it's kinda annoying.

I can't see any of the Sannin taking Minato, but I can see most of the Akatsuki members taking him. (The Minato that was alive n.n)

Yeah I used to believe the Sannin were indeed very powerful but now I'm starting to see them as more like Low Kage instead of Mid-Kage.


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## Charmed (Apr 25, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Who did they actually capture with ease?
> 
> 
> You had jiraiya who was caught off and was gravely injured still reverted Naruto to his human form didn't he?
> ...



Amm pretty much all Jinchuuriki/Biju were captured without that much trouble at all, at least, the Akatsuki members didn't end up in the hospital, or severly injured or low in stamina. I mean, not even their robes were scratched.
As I said, Orochimaru and Jiraiya couldn't handle an imperfect Jinchuuriki, it was just to much for them, Orochimaru was doing better couse of his body, but stil all his arsenal was useless against a Jinchuuriki.

Yes Kabuto is a skilled Jounin, and Tsunade had troubles fighting with him at least in base, but I don't buy the idea she was rusty (I can explain here if you want) I mean Tsunade couldn't even land a hit, she ain't landing a single hit on any of the Akatsuki members, even Hidan is as fast as Kakashi and Hidan has no Sharingan o.o

Uhm they said on the 4th Databook that the Sandaime Kazekage was once the strongest shinbi but they didn't specified of which villages etc.

Is that all the hype you can get from the Sannin? It's still nothing compared to the hype of the Akatsuki, the only Sannin that has a Hype similar is Orochimaru, and still, many Akatsuki have better hype.

Yes we don't know how the battle went Chiyo vs Tsunade, but we do know that Tsunade never land a blow on Chiyo, couse if that happende Chiyo would be dead or in the best case she wouldn't be able to move or something.
We do know Tsunade had Katsuyu, still, Chiyo had all her puppet collection Intact, which means Tsunade could never blow to pieces a single of her puppets, and that Katsuyu is still a non factor.

Not really, Sasori was in control on the entire fight, they had trouble getting near him, he wasa long ranging them the entire fight almost.
Chiyo lost 9/10 of her puppets, and Sasori didn't even loose half of the 100 Puppets, which means Sasori is far superior.
It's funny how Tsunade wasn't able to break any of Chiyo's puppet collection, yet Sasori destroyed it almost all, and people think Tsunade can win against Sasori x'D.

Nope, Jiraiya SM spent 80% of his time fighting Animal Path, he isn't as great asmost people think he is, but yeah he still is a Kage tier.


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## Veracity (Apr 25, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Because Tsunade didn't look rusty to me, she was still good for her level, it's like saying Chiyo was rusty couse she spent years fishing and playing dead, yet she still was able to fight 100 Puppets and Satetsu. That's why I don't buy that Tsunade was rusty, her accuracy and evasive feats are just that bad, she's more of a support character, although all she needs is 1 hit, but aiming is a problem for her.
> 
> It's kinda dumb to think that Tsunade having super regeneration just likes to get stabbed in order to hit her opponents, why waste chakra like that? it makes no sense at all. Tsunade is "supposed" to be the Worlds best Medical Ninja, so she should be able to have great evasive skills, high speed, high reading patterns skill, still she didn't show any of that, if she had them she wouldn't be impaled by the susanoo with ease, not even Mei got impaled, which seems to me Mei is faster and more evasive than Tsunade.
> 
> ...



It honestly doesn't matter what you think regarding the manga when actual statements negate that. If Tsuande was stated to be Rusty on two different occasions then she was Rusty. No amount of textual gymnastics supersedes that. You also, again, ignored the absence of Byakago, SS, the Yin Seal and Katsuyu against Kabuto in order to highlight Tsunades struggle. If Sasori was Rusty and without his 100 puppets/Kazekage then clearly one would not be able to use those feats against him because he was not at his best. Same applies here.

If Tsuande was just a support character she would have died against the Sussano clones in one second. Put any support only character in that situation and they would not last hours like Tsuande. That was Tsuande without Katsuyu mind you.

Because getting hit allows her to hit her opponent in the situation. You have to take context into situation which you clearly aren't. Tsuande is barely over 5 feet and has less arm reach than even the average person. The Sussano clones, on the other hand, are well over 25 feet with swords to extent their range to boot. Then we go even further and add that Tsuande was outnumbered 5 to 1 and is restricted to hitting the clones with her bare knuckles unlike all the other Kage. Now you tell me, how was Tsuande going to escape without being touched?

Tsuande isn't suppose to be the greatest medical ninja she is. And Mei was going to be killed by the Sussano clones if Gaara didn't save her. Don't bring her up again because I just explained to you why she would have died while Tsuande was clearly fighting with chakra left. End of discussion.

You don't know if Tsuande and Chiyo even fought at all. All that was stated was that they met on the battlefield and that Tsuande could counter her poisons on the fly. Hashirama and Kakuzu met on the battlefield. Kakuzu survived so does that mean Hashirama isnt that strong? No it just means we lack the proper information to come to a 100 conclusion. So you really cant use that to base your argument on.

The fact that you said Tsuande maybe can't beat Hidan simply means I shouldn't waste my time. You have bias against Tsunade if you think she can't beat the weakest member of the Akatsuki.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Charmed (Apr 25, 2017)

Veracity said:


> It honestly doesn't matter what you think regarding the manga when actual statements negate that. If Tsuande was stated to be Rusty on two different occasions then she was Rusty. No amount of textual gymnastics supersedes that. You also, again, ignored the absence of Byakago, SS, the Yin Seal and Katsuyu against Kabuto in order to highlight Tsunades struggle. If Sasori was Rusty and without his 100 puppets/Kazekage then clearly one would not be able to use those feats against him because he was not at his best. Same applies here.
> 
> If Tsuande was just a support character she would have died against the Sussano clones in one second. Put any support only character in that situation and they would not last hours like Tsuande. That was Tsuande without Katsuyu mind you.
> 
> ...



Yeah not really, She wasn't rusty, she wasn't using her best jutsu, still it doesn't change the fact that she has low evasion and accuracy.

So she is a Support Character with fighting skills, doesn't change the fact she cant evade a sword coming at her, is that difficult to dodge a predictable sword? It wasn't for the other Kage let me tell you that.
The fact Tsunade is a CQC ninja doesn't mean she gets all the hit all the time, it makes non sense, when CQC fighters are trained to read patterns on their opponents so they can dodge them and predict them or react to them.

Yes she was outnumbered, yet Mei is the weakest (defensivly speaking) and she was just alright, not even injured like at all.
I know Mei was punched and was about to get stabbed, but that doesn0t change the fact that she lasted as long as Tsunade without no injuries, while Tsunade was on her knees bleeding etc.

Yeah we don0t know how that fight went, all I know Chiyo never received a single hit, otherwise she'd be dead by now.
And I can say the same for Chiyo's puppet collection.


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## Serene Grace (Apr 25, 2017)

Charmed said:


> *Low Kage* instead of Mid-Kage.


 Once you say this bs about Jiraiya is the moment I have to jump in
, and , and  and this was all with _*ONE*_ arm but hey he's low kage level.  same paths that make taijutsu, as well as ninjustu utterly useless but hey he's low kage level. ,  gives clear evidence to this.  , but hey he's a low kagegive an actual good explanation for this, I'm really interested in what you're gonna come up with. 

Sidenote: you aren't making this thread because you couldn't give me an answer for how Sasori and Deidara counter Yomi numa did you?

I'm not even gonna talk about how potrayal potrayal Jiraiya as anything but a low kage level, that much is obvious.

As for Tsunade, I dont need to really bother since @Veracity is on it, and someone already talked to you about Oro

Man "The sanin are wanked" they say

Reactions: Like 2


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## Charmed (Apr 25, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Once you say this bs about Jiraiya is the moment I have to jump in
> , and , and  and this was all with _*ONE*_ arm but hey he's low kage level.  same paths that make taijutsu, as well as ninjustu utterly useless but hey he's low kage level. ,  gives clear evidence to this.  , but hey he's a low kagegive an actual good explanation for this, I'm really interested in what you're gonna come up with.
> 
> Sidenote: you aren't making this thread because you couldn't give me an answer for how Sasori and Deidara counter Yomi numa did you?
> ...


So? he's still a kage tier, I don't see the problem


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## Troyse22 (Apr 25, 2017)

Off panel feats are okay as long it's a Sannin, but if Kakuzu and Hidan defeat Yugito off panel, it's irrelevant.

Jiraiya got bitch slapped down and Deva didn't use anything the entire battle, it's ludicrous to assume that even with full knowledge he can oppose Pein, he's not even near the same league.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Tom Servo (Apr 25, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Off panel feats are okay as long it's a Sannin, *but if Kakuzu and Hidan defeat Yugito off panel*, it's irrelevant.
> 
> Jiraiya got bitch slapped down and Deva didn't use anything the entire battle, it's ludicrous to assume that even with full knowledge he can oppose Pein, he's not even near the same league.


I honestly don't see why that's much of an issue since Kakuzu alone is roughly around Kisame's level in overall stats. The part I don't get is them some how beating a tailed beast with Hidan's curse.....like immortal or not he should have been vaporized or crushed and the host would be dead. Same with Deidara casually beating the three tails with a c1 bomb or Kisame apparently overpowering the fourtails single-handedly...

As for the thread I mean yeah the Sannin should all be mid-to high Akatsuki Level. Jiraiya is implied to have been able to beat Pain had he not got the jump on him and kept his little six paths mystery, Orochimaru was a member of the Akatsuki, Tsunade is really the only one that's kind of featless by comparison of these two.


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## Bonly (Apr 25, 2017)

Charmed said:


> So? he's still a kage tier, I don't see the problem



The problem would be in calling him "low" Kage lvl as while he's still Kage lvl, you're low balling Jiraiya.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Troyse22 (Apr 25, 2017)

Tom Servo said:


> I honestly don't see why that's much of an issue since Kakuzu alone is roughly around Kisame's level in overall stats. The part I don't get is them some how beating a tailed beast with Hidan's curse.....like immortal or not he should have been vaporized or crushed and the host would be dead. Same with Deidara casually beating the three tails with a c1 bomb or Kisame apparently overpowering the fourtails single-handedly...
> 
> As for the thread I mean yeah the Sannin should all be mid-to high Akatsuki Level. Jiraiya is implied to have been able to beat Pain had he not got the jump on him and kept his little six paths mystery, Orochimaru was a member of the Akatsuki, Tsunade is really the only one that's kind of featless by comparison of these two.




Kisame overpowering four tails is reasonable considering he overpowered a perfect Jin of a much stronger Bijuu


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## LostSelf (Apr 25, 2017)

Sannin being Akatsuki level is something that shouldn't need a discussion.


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## Veracity (Apr 25, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Yeah not really, She wasn't rusty, she wasn't using her best jutsu, still it doesn't change the fact that she has low evasion and accuracy.
> 
> So she is a Support Character with fighting skills, doesn't change the fact she cant evade a sword coming at her, is that difficult to dodge a predictable sword? It wasn't for the other Kage let me tell you that.
> The fact Tsunade is a CQC ninja doesn't mean she gets all the hit all the time, it makes non sense, when CQC fighters are trained to read patterns on their opponents so they can dodge them and predict them or react to them.
> ...



Okay now you're just ignoring what's been shown and stated in the manga. Do you want the panels where both Jirayia and Oro state that she was in a fallen state? I don't really know what else to do for you especially when you ignored all the other indications as to why Rusty Tsuande using 1/4 of her arsenal wouldn't be as powerful as Healthy Tsuande going all out.

And what indication do you have that the Sussano swords were predictable? Everyone was hit atleast once in that battle and they are full fledged Kage.

The whole point of Madara using 5 Sussano clones was to show that outnumbering your opponent was unfair. So yes Tsuande was clearly going to be hit in CQC against FIVE SUSSANO CLONES. You make it seem like she was pegged by fodder. Sussano clones are no joke especially when you don't have the DC to destroy them and are forced to fight them with your fists. All the disadvantages that Tsuande had.

That's because Mei fights at *long distance.* Lowering the chance of her getting hit by a lot more. She isn't skilled in CQC so she kept the clones at a distance. Plus, if we're talking about Tsuande's overall fighting abilities then how is she not Mid-Kage Level when she lasted longer than Mei and Mei is your standard Kage?

Which means literally nothing. It holds about as much as merit as Kakuzu surviving Hashirama despite the blatant difference in power.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Charmed (Apr 25, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame overpowering four tails is reasonable considering he overpowered a perfect Jin of a much stronger Bijuu



sounds logical to me.


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## Charmed (Apr 25, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Off panel feats are okay as long it's a Sannin, but if Kakuzu and Hidan defeat Yugito off panel, it's irrelevant.
> 
> Jiraiya got bitch slapped down and Deva didn't use anything the entire battle, it's ludicrous to assume that even with full knowledge he can oppose Pein, he's not even near the same league.



I know  right, Kakuzu didn0t even loose a single heart, I mean, his robe was intact, as well as Hidan's.
That's pretty cool to me, I don't know if Yugito was a Perfect Jinchuuriki but she pretty much transformed Full Biju Mode in an instant, if she's not a perfect Jin, she has huge control over the 2 Tails, and it seems to me she had no intention to full around with Hidan nor Kakuzu, yet, they killed her without having a single scratch...

Saying Jiraiya can take the 6 Paths at the same time is just no... this guy can solo the 3 Sannin together :/
Hanzo defeated them right? and Pain killed  Hanzo...


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## Troyse22 (Apr 25, 2017)

Charmed said:


> I know  right, Kakuzu didn0t even loose a single heart, I mean, his robe was intact, as well as Hidan's.
> That's pretty cool to me, I don't know if Yugito was a Perfect Jinchuuriki but she pretty much transformed Full Biju Mode in an instant, if she's not a perfect Jin, she has huge control over the 2 Tails, and it seems to me she had no intention to full around with Hidan nor Kakuzu, yet, they killed her without having a single scratch...
> 
> Saying Jiraiya can take the 6 Paths at the same time is just no... this guy can solo the 3 Sannin together :/
> Hanzo defeated them right? and Pain killed  Hanzo...




Pain killed a rusty Hanzo a shame that Prime Hanzo is all hype, considering I think he's a beast Shinobi.

And yeah, no Sannin can solo Pein.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Charmed (Apr 25, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Okay now you're just ignoring what's been shown and stated in the manga. Do you want the panels where both Jirayia and Oro state that she was in a fallen state? I don't really know what else to do for you especially when you ignored all the other indications as to why Rusty Tsuande using 1/4 of her arsenal wouldn't be as powerful as Healthy Tsuande going all out.
> 
> And what indication do you have that the Sussano swords were predictable? Everyone was hit atleast once in that battle and they are full fledged Kage.
> 
> ...



I don't need the panels really, I get your point, and I respect that.
I'm not saying 5 Susano are foddor... :S I'm just saying Tsunade did worse than any other Kage against them.
So? Konan fights long distance too, does this means people think Tsunade looses against her? nope...
Sasori is Long ranged to with his puppets and Iron sand, does this means people see Tsunade loosing against him? nope.
Kakuzu and Mei are long ranged too, still people think Tsunade can beat them.. so yeah..


Well it's a susano sword, it's not an arrow like Sasuke's, it's logical that a sword is kinda predictable, except Bee's, those are 8 Swords at a time, or Sasori's 100 puppets, to many diffrent weapons, diffrent styles to fight at the same time from every single angle + poison + traps.

I mean, really, Tsunade has 0 evasive skills and her accuracy isn't that great, but she's a great support character, for example she was needed against Madara, but her fighting skills aren't that impressive like, at all.

For me Mei is Mid kage and Tsunade should be Low near Mid Kage as the other Sannin.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 25, 2017)

It's be OOC for Jiraiya to use a Bijuu sized yomi Numa against a single target TDTS. He can't Yomi Numa Deidara anyways, considering the dude flies around


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## Charmed (Apr 25, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Pain killed a rusty Hanzo a shame that Prime Hanzo is all hype, considering I think he's a beast Shinobi.
> 
> And yeah, no Sannin can solo Pein.



Ah yeah I remember now! But didn't Mifune defeat Hanzo by himself? although Hanzo was just a Kabuto Puppet at the time.
You're lucky Kisame didn't get Edo-ed, couse he would've gotten trolled like the other Akatsuki x'D

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1


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## Charmed (Apr 25, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> It's be OOC for Jiraiya to use a Bijuu sized yomi Numa against a single target TDTS. He can't Yomi Numa Deidara anyways, considering the dude flies around



Excuse me, what is OOC and TDTS?


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## Serene Grace (Apr 25, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> It's be OOC for Jiraiya to use a Bijuu sized yomi Numa against a single target TDTS. He can't Yomi Numa Deidara anyways, considering the dude flies around


He dosent need a bjuii sized target, just a Yomi numa that's big enough and deep enough. The logic you're using is also pretty ridiculous. You acknowledge Jiraiya can make big swamps but then you give him plot induced stupidity(PIS) and say he'll only make one human sized. Thats like me saying Gaara would only make a Imperial Funeral the size of a human, or Hashirama would only make wood golems and dragons the size of his opponents, or Itachi only shooting flames the size of human being, or Sasori would only use 3 satesu needles because he uses three aga inst Chiyo and Sakura, when we clearly know he can use more. Thats ridicolous. 

And does Deidara magically get into the air? Or does he not have to get onto his bird first? If hes on the ground he has a chance of getting sunk a real good chance, simple


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Apr 25, 2017)

@Charmed please stop lol im saying this in a nice way  like all the posters in this thread , including me, are very knowledgeable about the manga (even though I do disagree sometimes on what they say, but really thats with anything) and they've been reading and going over this material for a long time, everyone's trying to tell you the fact that the Sannin are indeed Akatsuki lvl and mid-Kage and there showing you with clear evidence  (feats/scans/portrayal/scans etc). Even wankers for other characters are saying that Sannin are indeed Akatsuki and mid-kage, like theres not one soul on this thread that thinks SM Jiraiya is low-kage... like come on... thats like saying Hidan or Chyio can do what he did in the fight with Pein, like portrayal alone tells you these clear facts

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 25, 2017)

A sannin was a member of the Akatsuki, there's your first answer.

The organization ranges from low kage (Hidan) to bridging god level (Nagato), to low god level (Jubito).

There is no general level of Akatuski, it's merely a collection of S-rank shinobi.

There's your other answer.


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## Charmed (Apr 25, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> @Charmed please stop lol im saying this in a nice way  like all the posters in this thread , including me, are very knowledgeable about the manga (even though I do disagree sometimes on what they say, but really thats with anything) and they've been reading and going over this material for a long time, everyone's trying to tell you the fact that the Sannin are indeed Akatsuki lvl and mid-Kage and there showing you with clear evidence  (feats/scans/portrayal/scans etc). Even wankers for other characters are saying that Sannin are indeed Akatsuki and mid-kage, like theres not one soul on this thread that thinks SM Jiraiya is low-kage... like come on... thats like saying Hidan or Chyio can do what he did in the fight with Pein, like portrayal alone tells you these clear facts



But the Sannin for me are stronger than Hidan and Chiyo, the 3 are near Mid Kage.

It's resumed to the fact that both Orochimaru and Jiraiya had trouble handling an imperfect Jinchuuriki, yet the Akatsuki managed to capture Full Biju Mode Jinchuuriki with not much trouble.

That's why I don't see the Sannin as strong as 90% of the Akatsuki, I mean, they're still Kage's to me


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## Bonly (Apr 25, 2017)

Charmed said:


> But the Sannin for me are stronger than Hidan and Chiyo, the 3 are near Mid Kage.
> 
> It's resumed to the fact that both Orochimaru and Jiraiya had trouble handling an imperfect Jinchuuriki, yet the Akatsuki managed to capture Full Biju Mode Jinchuuriki with not much trouble.
> 
> That's why I don't see the Sannin as strong as 90% of the Akatsuki, I mean, they're still Kage's to me



Every Akatsuki member that went up against Naruto lost and he was an imperfect Jin when they fought. You are using faulty logic to imply the Sannin aren't impressive due to having troubles with Naruto


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## Eliyua23 (Apr 25, 2017)

You're ignoring Jiraiya is Naruto's mentor not even going all out and obviously not using Sage Mode so in base he fought roughly on par with 4KN something that most of atakiski cant handle and that's with holding back his full Stength , Orochimaru was sick and not in use of ninjutsu and like Jiraiya wasn't going all out the fact that at his worst he could match 4KN was hype not to downplay him only someone being obtuse would say that 

Orochimaru was stronger than Hiruzen and had access to Edo Tensei a jutsu that most of atakuski cant deal with besides Itachi , Nagato , Obito 

Jiraiya has Sage Mode the ultimate power in the manga held by Rikudo himself


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## Troyse22 (Apr 25, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Excuse me, what is OOC and TDTS?



OOC= Out of character 
TDTS= The death and the strawberry

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Charmed (Apr 25, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> He dosent need a bjuii sized target, just a Yomi numa that's big enough and deep enough. The logic you're using is also pretty ridiculous. You acknowledge Jiraiya can make big swamps but then you give him plot induced stupidity and say he'll only make one human sized. Thats like me saying Gaara would only make a Imperial Funeral the size of a human, or Hashirama would only make wood golems and dragons the size of his opponents, or Itachi only shooting flames the size of human being, or Sasori would only use 3 satesu needles because he uses three aga inst Chiyo and Sakura, when we clearly know he can use more. Thats ridicolous.
> 
> And does Deidara magically get into the air? Or does he not have to get onto his bird first? If he starts on the ground he has a chnace of getting sunk a real good chance, simple



So, Jiraiya Yomi Numa's all the Akatsuki at the same time and they die?
oh well then..
Sasori makes a let's say 5 times bigger Satetsu Kaihou and kills all the Akatsuki at the same time.

I'm sorry, that's not how Narutoverse works, not in my head I mean, to say a Mid kage (for you Jiraiya is a mid kage right?) can 1 shot another mid kage opponent at the start of the battle is just ridiculous, and it's a statement worth to laugh at, but I won't


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## Charmed (Apr 25, 2017)

Eliyua23 said:


> You're ignoring Jiraiya is Naruto's mentor not even going all out and obviously not using Sage Mode so in base he fought roughly on par with 4KN something that most of atakiski cant handle and that's with holding back his full Stength , Orochimaru was sick and not in use of ninjutsu and like Jiraiya wasn't going all out the fact that at his worst he could match 4KN was hype not to downplay him only someone being obtuse would say that
> 
> Orochimaru was stronger than Hiruzen and had access to Edo Tensei a jutsu that most of atakuski cant deal with besides Itachi , Nagato , Obito
> 
> Jiraiya has Sage Mode the ultimate power in the manga held by Rikudo himself


and still SM  Jiraiya spent 80% of his time fighting Animal Path alone.
Remember the Akatsuki weren't really going all out against the Jinchuuriki, couse they want/need to capture them alive, still they were doing this as if it was an easy task to do, something both sannin had trouble with.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 25, 2017)

Charmed said:


> So, Jiraiya Yomi Numa's all the Akatsuki at the same time and they die?
> oh well then..
> Sasori makes a let's say 5 times bigger Satetsu Kaihou and kills all the Akatsuki at the same time.
> 
> I'm sorry, that's not how Narutoverse works, not in my head I mean, to say a Mid kage (for you Jiraiya is a mid kage right?) can 1 shot another mid kage opponent at the start of the battle is just ridiculous, and it's a statement worth to laugh at, but I won't




Yomi Numa doesn't do shit to the Akatsuki as a whole.

Samehada absorbs it
Daikodan does
Itachi uses Susanoo, sorry but something that overpowered Orochimarus strongest tech is a strength battle isn't getting pinned by Yomi Numa, fuck outta here with that.
Obito goes to boxland 
Nagato STs


The only Akatsuki members who don't have a counter to a Bijuu sized Yomi Numa are everyone under the top 4

I mean I've seen someone say last month that SM Jiraiya can defeat the Juubi with Yomi Numa, so yeah


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## Veracity (Apr 25, 2017)

Charmed said:


> I don't need the panels really, I get your point, and I respect that.
> I'm not saying 5 Susano are foddor... :S I'm just saying Tsunade did worse than any other Kage against them.
> So? Konan fights long distance too, does this means people think Tsunade looses against her? nope...
> Sasori is Long ranged to with his puppets and Iron sand, does this means people see Tsunade loosing against him? nope.
> ...



Okay so you admit that she was Rusty right? As long as we don't use her Rusty feats in lieu of her Part 2 feats than I'm fine.

But she didn't do worse than the Kage... because Gaara got knocked on his ass, Ay was caught in genjustu and Mei literally would have died. Saying that Tsuande did worse because she was forced to use Byakago doesn't make any sense. Byakago is her literally her ability and it's what makes her powerful in battles. Was she suppose to do better than all the other Kage without Byakago?

Tsuande didn't use Katsuyu against the clones which is really her only long range attack. So that actually different.

What makes an arrow less predictable than a sword swing like I really want to know. And it really wasn't the fact that it was a sword but the fact that it was 5 swords and 5 Sussanos fighting against an opponent only using their arms and legs.


The thing is... you don't take context into the situation most of the time. Tsuande has 2 fights in the entire manga. One is excluded because she was Rusty and other was against Madara Uchiha in which everyone even including the fastest man in the world got hit atleast once. Soo... Tsuande never for the chance to display her evasiave skills but one can do this thing call infering to conclude that she's excellent at evasion. Tsunade outright stated that medical shinobi are top tier in evasive skill( manga fact) and she's the greatest medical shinobi( manga fact) and she literally had to teach other medical shinobi how to excel at evasion( manga fact). So why would she be bad at evasion? She's not, she's great but she hasn't had the chance to show it because Madara is just that powerful.

I don't understand how that makes any sense. We both agree that Tsuande is a much better support shinobi than Mei right? Okay that's a fact. Now add the fact that Tsuande lasted longer than Mei against the Sussano clones and I have no idea how she could be a low tier Kage when Mei is mid tier.


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## Serene Grace (Apr 25, 2017)

Charmed said:


> So, Jiraiya Yomi Numa's all the Akatsuki at the same time and they die?
> oh well then..
> Sasori makes a let's say 5 times bigger Satetsu Kaihou and kills all the Akatsuki at the same time.
> 
> I'm sorry, that's not how Narutoverse works, not in my head I mean, to say a Mid kage (for you Jiraiya is a mid kage right?) can 1 shot another mid kage opponent at the start of the battle is just ridiculous, and it's a statement worth to laugh at, but I won't


What are you talking about? Where did I day Jiraiya Yomi numa the entire akatsuki at the same time wtf? Stop putting words in my mouth. 

A statement to laugh at? You making this thread in the first place is something to laugh at, please dont start about laughing at stuff..please.

As for Yomi numa, I already had this talk with you in regards to deidara and Sasori, and you were left with no answer you even hilarously repsonded with "ok",  while also getting your argument destroyed in the same process. Do you want me to link it so everyone and you can see? If no, then I suggest you stop with this attitude, as you would simply end up embaras sing yourself in the same process.

Anyways I'm out.


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## Charmed (Apr 25, 2017)

Bonly said:


> Every Akatsuki member that went up against Naruto lost and he was an imperfect Jin when they fought. You are using faulty logic to imply the Sannin aren't impressive due to having troubles with Naruto



Not really, I never saw any Akatsuki fight 1 on 1 against Naruto otherwise he would've been captured already and ruined the plot.
Only Pain fought him and we know that Naruto had all the advantages in the world + the fact Pain was weakened like a lot, I mean Deva was useless. The Sannin and most of the Akatsuki have a chance to beat Pain under those same circumstances too..

And I remember Naruto still loosing to Deva Pain until Hinata came to save him (Plot no Jutsu + Love)
All he needed was to Bansho Tennin an stab him with chakra rods once he recovered his powers


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## Charmed (Apr 25, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> What are you talking about? Where did I day Jiraiya Yomi numa the entire akatsuki at the same time wtf? Stop putting words in my mouth.
> 
> A statement to laugh at? You making this thread in the first place is something to laugh at, please dont start about laughing at stuff..please.
> 
> ...


Wait don't go!...
Let me call you  a cab 
(laugh it's just a joke n.n)

So, if Jiraiya is Yomi Numa 2 midtier kages right at the start of the battle and one shotting them, what's stopping Jiraiya from doing the same to all the Akatsuki at the same time? I mean, you already said he can create a bigger Yomi Numa, so it's a jutsu that has no limits.

So me putting the Sannin a little behind the Akatsuki is more laughable than you saying a Sannin one shots 2 Akatsuki members (mid tiers) at the same time?

Interesting logic

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## DaVizWiz (Apr 25, 2017)

Kisame implied he had trouble with Roshi, the imperfect 4 tail Jinchuriki.

Kakuzu & Hidan, together, beat Yugito off panel because the author couldn't think of a way to narrate them beating Yugito after she went into Bijuu Mode when drawing blood is impossible, and elements are garbage to a BM shell. Inexplicably, Hidan attained the necessary blood, and Kakuzu did not lose a single heart in the process. Essentially, Yugito was canned for the purpose of plot.

Deidara lost an arm against Gaara, the imperfect 1 tail Jinchuriki, which is an extremely serious irreversable injury (Ei), career ending for most (seal based Ninjutsu combatants- complete opposite of Ei), and only won as a result of attacking defenseless villagers with a super bomb. Inexplicably a replacement arm was stiched on, this should not have been possible without Hashirama's DNA.

Not even god naruto with supernatural life force from Hagoromo (Yang), treatment from Tsunade who claimed she could regrow her own limbs, Sakura with the same technique, and likely advice from Kabuto with years of medical and biological expertise, healing powers from Kurama, with access to Hashirama's DNA (Kabuto, Yamato) was capable of fully rejuvinating his lost arm to original condition and keeps it bandaged 15 years later.

Deidara's arm replacements were not explained fully and is a major plot hole, he should have been retired from combat once Kakashi took his other arm.

Kakuzu was killed by Wind-arc Naruto, the imperfect 9 tail Jinchuriki.

Pain was killed by Pain-arc Naruto, the imperfect 9 tail Jinchuriki.

Base Jiraiya put BoS Naruto, the imperfect 9 tail Jinchuriki, to sleep with a sheet of paper and received a minor torso injury in the process.

Orochimaru stalemated BoS Naruto, the imperfect 9 tail Jinchuriki, in a V2 form, without arms to produce most of his Ninjutsu - the element of combat he focused most on (I will learn all the secrets of shinobi!).

If you restricted seals/arm based Ninjutsu from all of the Akatsuki members - and put them individually against KN4 Naruto - all bar Itachi/Nagato/Obito would be killed by him.

Kisame got his arm pierced and his chest completely obliterated by the perfect 8 tailed Jinchuriki who was restricted from using any techniques attributed to a perfect jinchuriki (BM, Bijuudama), and had to bodyguard two fodder that Kisame was deliberately using as bait, so you'd mine as well imply he was the imperfect 8 tailed Jinchuriki in that bout, and in the same situation as Gaara, despite this he nearly killed Kisame.

Reactions: Like 1 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Bonly (Apr 25, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Not really, I never saw any Akatsuki fight 1 on 1 against Naruto otherwise he would've been captured already and ruined the plot.
> Only Pain fought him and we know that Naruto had all the advantages in the world + the fact Pain was weakened like a lot, I mean Deva was useless. The Sannin and most of the Akatsuki have a chance to beat Pain under those same circumstances too..
> 
> And I remember Naruto still loosing to Deva Pain until Hinata came to save him (Plot no Jutsu + Love)
> All he needed was to Bansho Tennin an stab him with chakra rods once he recovered his powers



Hidan+Kakuzu vs Yugito wasn't a 1V1 fight yet you always bring it up for the Akatsuki taking out Jins and Bijuu. Fights in the manga aren't always 1V1 nor is it always gonna be a fair fight aka Deidara vs Gaara with Gaara worrying about the village. If you're gonna constantly bring up the Akatsuki beating Jins+Bijuu then lets not forget that outside Kisame, none of them beat a Jin/Bijuu in a fair 1V1 fight. So using that point to suggest the Sannin aren't impressive is faulty when any member that met up with Naruto either ended up dying or losing, except for Itachi but then he's the solo king so it's understandable


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## Charmed (Apr 25, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Okay so you admit that she was Rusty right? As long as we don't use her Rusty feats in lieu of her Part 2 feats than I'm fine.
> 
> But she didn't do worse than the Kage... because Gaara got knocked on his ass, Ay was caught in genjustu and Mei literally would have died. Saying that Tsuande did worse because she was forced to use Byakago doesn't make any sense. Byakago is her literally her ability and it's what makes her powerful in battles. Was she suppose to do better than all the other Kage without Byakago?
> 
> ...



Nope, I don't think she was Rusty, but it's obvious she wasn't using her best jutsu, but using her best jutsu how does this increase her accuracy and reaction and evasive feats?

Uhm the 5 Kage were getting overwhelmed even though the 25 Susy were just playing around, but Tsunade was the one being impaled and bleeding. What I'm saying is the fact that Tsunade has this sort of "inmortality" doesn't mean she needs to take hits in order to hit her opponent, because in fact she is the best Medical Ninja, so she should have enough speed and evasive abilities to not get impaled every single time, but we all see that didn't happen.

Uhm I remember Susano arrows being super fast, at leaste faster than a Susano sword, that makes sense to me, so you see the sword coming at you you simply dodge it not stand there and get stabbed.

Nope, I say Mei is Mid Kage and Tsunade is Low-High Kage (like the other Sannin to me), while Chiyo  for me is Low-Mid and Hidan is Low-Low.

Something like that n.n'


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## Serene Grace (Apr 25, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Wait don't go!...
> Let me call you  a cab
> (laugh it's just a joke n.n)
> 
> ...


That reading comprehension my guy, IF Yomi numa is used on him while he's not airbourne he gets sunk. Keyword _*IF *_meaning in the _*hypothetical off chance *_that Yomi Numa is used on Deidara while he isn't airbourne he'd get sunk as he lacks a counter to it, not that Jiraiya would automatically start with Yomi Numa off the jump as that isn't In character for him to do, pay attention to what people say, nor am I implying that Yomi numa would be an exteremly game changer if Jiraiya was to fight Deidara.

As for the bold I'm not sure if you're joking or simply trying to annoy me. Really man? Me saying that Jiraiya can make a bigger Yomi Numa if he adds more chakra into it, which is explicitly what the databook said, is somehow saying that Yomi Numa is *limitless*? Come on man


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## Charmed (Apr 25, 2017)

Bonly said:


> Hidan+Kakuzu vs Yugito wasn't a 1V1 fight yet you always bring it up for the Akatsuki taking out Jins and Bijuu. Fights in the manga aren't always 1V1 nor is it always gonna be a fair fight aka Deidara vs Gaara with Gaara worrying about the village. If you're gonna constantly bring up the Akatsuki beating Jins+Bijuu then lets not forget that outside Kisame, none of them beat a Jin/Bijuu in a fair 1V1 fight. So using that point to suggest the Sannin aren't impressive is faulty when any member that met up with Naruto either ended up dying or losing, except for Itachi but then he's the solo king so it's understandable



Yes Bonly yes! that's what I'm trying to say, that the Akatsuki were just made for capturing Biju without much trouble.
I know Itachi can take any Biju and Jinchuriki, as well as Kisame, and the other members are tough as well, still members of Akatsuki, even Hidan had a chance although we never see the fight.

Um Deidara wasn't prepared to fight Gaara, he was so confident to take him with little amount of clay, the thing is Gaara indeed is a Mid-Kage + Jinchuuriki + had the advantage of being in the desert.
Deidara's arm was a way to trick Gaara and hide bombs inside it's sand, so when Gaara uses this sand as a defense, the bombs BLOW!,
It's not a hard task to do relly, and Deidara knew Kakuzu would put his arm back anyway.
Deidara didn't even use C0 or C4.

After that Sasori was mad at Deidara for taking so long.

As you said Hidan and Kakuzu fought the 2 tails, but they ended the fight without a single scratch, that's very cool actually.

The 3 Tails was 1 shoted by Deidara.

The 4 Tails, Kisame didn't really have much problems, I mean you can look at Kisame he looks just fine.

The 5 and 6 and 7 we didn't see them but you could say other members captured them

The 8 Tails is a perfect Jinchuuriki yet, Kisame was doing just fine against him.

The 9 Tails, before Sennin Modo NARUTO, this should've been the easiest to capture, but PLOT 

So it doesn't seem like a hard task for the Akatsuki capturing Jinchuuriki and Biju but Orochimaru adn Jiraiya had a tough time facing 4 tails Naruto.


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## Charmed (Apr 25, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> That reading comprehension my guy, IF Yomi numa is used on him while he's not airbourne he gets sunk. Keyword _*IF *_meaning in the _*hypothetical off chance *_that Yomi Numa is used on Deidara while he isn't airbourne he'd get sunk as he lacks a counter to it, not that Jiraiya would automatically start with Yomi Numa off the jump as that isn't In character for him to do, pay attention to what people say, nor am I implying that Yomi numa would be an exteremly game changer if Jiraiya was to fight Deidara.
> 
> As for the bold I'm not sure if you're joking or simply trying to annoy me. Really man? Me saying that Jiraiya can make a bigger Yomi Numa if he adds more chakra into it, which is explicitly what the databook said, is somehow saying that Yomi Numa is *limitless*? Come on man



So what's the point? If Jiraiya can swamp both Sasori and Deidara at th same time, what's stopping him to doing so against all Akatsuki members at the same time? I mean, the swamp is big enough. I mean if he could he wouldn't be fooling around putting his life at risk, when fighting a Rinnegan user.

Or maybe nobody that actually has a brain and is more powerful than a Snake and Human Path alone, would never get swamped n.n/

I'm gonna go for door #2 please!


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## Tri (Apr 25, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Deidara's arm was a way to trick Gaara and hide bombs inside it's sand, so when Gaara uses this sand as a defense, the bombs BLOW!,
> It's not a hard task to do relly, and Deidara knew Kakuzu would put his arm back anyway.


Well no, he analyzed it was gourd sand that grabbed him and took advantage. He didn't allow his arm to be grabbed, although I don't really buy the notion a C3 distraction was required once Deidara had planted his clay in Gaara's sand. All he basically had to do was wait for Gaara's sand to return to him and he could've pulled off the same exact thing he did with the C3 distraction.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Serene Grace (Apr 25, 2017)

Charmed said:


> So what's the point? If Jiraiya can swamp both Sasori and Deidara at th same time, what's stopping him to doing so against all Akatsuki members at the same time? I mean, the swamp is big enough. I mean if he could he wouldn't be fooling around putting his life at risk, when fighting a Rinnegan user.
> 
> Or maybe nobody that actually has a brain and is more powerful than a Snake and Human Path alone, would never get swamped n.n/
> 
> I'm gonna go for door #2 please!


Not addressing any of this, as you're simply regurgitating the same shit from the other thread, where we argued this, though I do appreciate the second effort it looks cute

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Charmed (Apr 25, 2017)

Trizalgia said:


> Well no, he analyzed it was gourd sand that grabbed him and took advantage. He didn't allow his arm to be grabbed, although I don't really buy the notion a C3 distraction was required once Deidara had planted his clay in Gaara's sand. All he basically had to do was wait for Gaara's sand to return to him and he could've pulled off the same exact thing he did with the C3 distraction.



It seemed planned to me, like, how was Deidara going to mix his bombs with the sand without Gaara noticing? I can't think in any other way :S
Oh I think he neede Gaara to hide himself inside that sand sphere so he could have no were to go, couse Gaara could've just jumped to dodge the bombs or something like that right?


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## Charmed (Apr 25, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Not addressing any of this, as you're simply regurgitating the same shit from the other thread, where we argued this, though I do appreciate the second effort it looks cute


I'm trying my best, thank you


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## Tri (Apr 25, 2017)

Charmed said:


> It seemed planned to me, like, how was Deidara going to mix his bombs with the sand without Gaara noticing? I can't think in any other way :S


The panel right after his arm is crushed you see him make the conclusion it was the gourd sand that grabbed him. His wording when explaining the order of events indicates it was a move that was more in the heat of the moment. It's mostly a feat for Deidara though, the gourd sand caught him off guard which is why it grabbed him and he was quick witted enough to formulate that complicated of a plan within that instant.


Charmed said:


> Oh I think he neede Gaara to hide himself inside that sand sphere so he could have no were to go, couse Gaara could've just jumped to dodge the bombs or something like that right?


The whole reason Gaara used his gourd sand in the first place was because his regular sand wasn't fast enough to guard him from the C1 assault, once his gourd sand came out it was easily blocking the explosives. All Deidara really had to do was throw some more C1 at him to force him to block.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Bonly (Apr 25, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Um Deidara wasn't prepared to fight Gaara, he was so confident to take him with little amount of clay, the thing is Gaara indeed is a Mid-Kage + Jinchuuriki + had the advantage of being in the desert.



That's Deidara's own fault but again not every fight is gonna to be a fair fight.



> Deidara's arm was a way to trick Gaara and hide bombs inside it's sand, so when Gaara uses this sand as a defense, the bombs BLOW!,
> It's not a hard task to do relly, and Deidara knew Kakuzu would put his arm back anyway.
> Deidara didn't even use C0 or C4.
> 
> After that Sasori was mad at Deidara for taking so long.



Deidara didn't plan on getting his arm caught, he tried to run/fly away from it, Deidara just happened to use it to his advantage afterwords and Gaara wasn't going for the kill so that's why he only took Deidara's arm, had Gaara been going for the kill then Deidara would've die once his arm got caught.

Deidara didn't use C0 as that would kill him so no point in doing that and C4 would kill Deidara which isn't allowed.




> As you said Hidan and Kakuzu fought the 2 tails, but they ended the fight without a single scratch, that's very cool actually.



There's no proof that they didn't get hit once, hell we saw Kakuzu slammed into the ground at the start of the fight. Just because they looked uinharmed doesn't mean they went through the battle without being hurt.



> The 3 Tails was 1 shoted by Deidara.



There's no proof that it was one shot as it cut away and we have no clue how much time passed when we got back to them.



> The 4 Tails, Kisame didn't really have much problems, I mean you can look at Kisame he looks just fine.



Kisame himself said that he had problems dealing with Roshi but you think otherwise because he looks fine? So what you're saying is that your opinion based on how Kisame looks is better then Kisame himself disagreeing?



> The 5 and 6 and 7 we didn't see them but you could say other members captured them



Sure



> The 8 Tails is a perfect Jinchuuriki yet, Kisame was doing just fine against him.



He was doing great for most of the match 



> The 9 Tails, before Sennin Modo NARUTO, this should've been the easiest to capture, but PLOT



Everything is due to plot but as you saw everytime an Akatsuki went to catch him, they failed.



> So it doesn't seem like a hard task for the Akatsuki capturing Jinchuuriki and Biju but Orochimaru adn Jiraiya had a tough time facing 4 tails Naruto.



That's because you got a twisted way at looking at things


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## The_Conqueror (Apr 25, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Amm pretty much all Jinchuuriki/Biju were captured without that much trouble at all, at least, the Akatsuki members didn't end up in the hospital, or severly injured or low in stamina. I mean, not even their robes were scratched.
> As I said, Orochimaru and Jiraiya couldn't handle an imperfect Jinchuuriki, it was just to much for them, Orochimaru was doing better couse of his body, but stil all his arsenal was useless against a Jinchuuriki.


Orochiamaru without his jutsu was toying with 4 tails.
Jiraiya when trying to test *if naruto could control fox power was caught offguard*
But even with his *grave injuries still managed to revert naruto *

*Imperfect jinchuriki*
*Gaara: Still took away deidaras arm in a unfavorable match where he had to defend his village*
*Kisame had trouble with 4 tails*
*3 tails had no host *
*Yugito somehow gave blood while she was in BM?*
*Taka got destroyed by base bee. *
*Kisame lost his chest and that was bee who could not ho to BM. BM.Bee cleared an entire forest has continuous TBB and all for that matter*






Charmed said:


> Yes Kabuto is a skilled Jounin, and Tsunade had troubles fighting with him at least in base, but I don't buy the idea she was rusty (I can explain here if you want)



Do explain why? 




Charmed said:


> mean Tsunade couldn't even land a hit, she ain't landing a single hit on any of the Akatsuki members, even Hidan is as fast as Kakashi and Hidan has no Sharingan o.o



Based On? You dont have to have fighting skills to your requirement. Her taijutsu stat are 5 better than kakashi.




Charmed said:


> Uhm they said on the 4th Databook that the Sandaime Kazekage was once the strongest shinbi but they didn't specified of which villages etc.


Can you show me the entry?



Charmed said:


> Is that all the hype you can get from the Sannin? It's still nothing compared to the hype of the Akatsuki, the only Sannin that has a Hype similar is Orochimaru, and still, many Akatsuki have better hype.


Like?
No one except pain obito and Uchiha Itachi in Akatsuki have better hype than any of them




Charmed said:


> Yes we don't know how the battle went Chiyo vs Tsunade, but we do know that Tsunade never land a blow on Chiyo, couse if that happende Chiyo would be dead or in the best case she wouldn't be able to move or something.
> We do know Tsunade had Katsuyu, still, Chiyo had all her puppet collection Intact, which means Tsunade could never blow to pieces a single of her puppets, and that Katsuyu is still a non factor.




Again we dont know the promise of battle. Kakazu was still intact after he fought hashirama


Charmed said:


> Nope, Jiraiya SM spent 80% of his time fighting Animal Path, he isn't as great asmost people think he is, but yeah he still is a Kage tier.



Same question who except Tobi/Itachi would have done better?

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## Veracity (Apr 25, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Nope, I don't think she was Rusty, but it's obvious she wasn't using her best jutsu, but using her best jutsu how does this increase her accuracy and reaction and evasive feats?
> 
> Uhm the 5 Kage were getting overwhelmed even though the 25 Susy were just playing around, but Tsunade was the one being impaled and bleeding. What I'm saying is the fact that Tsunade has this sort of "inmortality" doesn't mean she needs to take hits in order to hit her opponent, because in fact she is the best Medical Ninja, so she should have enough speed and evasive abilities to not get impaled every single time, but we all see that didn't happen.
> 
> ...



Tsuande being Rusty isn't an opinion. It's an irrefutable manga fact. And the Yin Seal vitalizes the body with years of stored chakra thus bolstering speed.

We've been over this though. Even the Raikage was forced to block and was even hit at times. If someone that fast wasn't able to come out unscathed then why would another CQC like Tsunade be able to come out without being touched? Just think about it for a second. Byakago is Tsunade's most powerful asset. If she was able to evade the clones and land blows on them without even needing Byakago then she would be on a level surpassing the other Gokage members.

Where is the proof that she was impaled every time? I mean Raikage clearly said she was starting to get sloppy meaning she wasn't getting hit before.

Super fast =/= unpredictable.  Plus the fact that there was 5 Sussano clones with 5 swords which clearly makes up for the difference in speed. 

So you really think it's just easy to dodge any techinque in the series? You just watch it coming and dodge? Why didn't Madara just watch 8th Gate Gai come and dodge? Why didn't Sasuke just watch Kaguya coming and dodge? Why didn't all Of Sasori's puppets just watch Chiyo and Sakura come and dodge? It's not that simple.

I don't understand. Tsuande is low-high Kage? That's a huge gap.

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## Charmed (Apr 26, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Tsuande being Rusty isn't an opinion. It's an irrefutable manga fact. And the Yin Seal vitalizes the body with years of stored chakra thus bolstering speed.
> 
> We've been over this though. Even the Raikage was forced to block and was even hit at times. If someone that fast wasn't able to come out unscathed then why would another CQC like Tsunade be able to come out without being touched? Just think about it for a second. Byakago is Tsunade's most powerful asset. If she was able to evade the clones and land blows on them without even needing Byakago then she would be on a level surpassing the other Gokage members.
> 
> ...


Nop I ment Tsunade being in the highest of the Low Kage league  you get me? x'D
Like that's near to mid kage league.

Nah, she ain't rusty, she just wasn't using her best jutsu, couse remember she defeated Orochimaru with 1 hit later in the same battle.
She ain't rusty like.. at all.

So I didn't see any of the other Kage getting stabbed and bleeding, and the Raikage is a CQC ninja to, so he said Tsunade was getting sloppy and yeah she was, I mean, she was all stabbed, the Raikage got distracted and got genjutsued.
I know she was facing 5 opponents at the same time and she was still getting stabbed, tell the people who think she can deal with 100 puppets with 100 swords + poison at the same time x'D.

They were all overwhelmed (obviously) but they all were doing better than Tsunade, that seems to me.

Depending on the jutsu, for example Gai's is pretty much impossible to dodge, but a susano sword doesn't seem that fast to me o.0
Only the sword from the Perfect Susano is very fast like, slicing mountains and stuff.

_why would another CQC like Tsunade be able to come out without being touched? Just think about it for a second. Byakago is Tsunade's most powerful asset. If she was able to evade the clones and land blows on them without even needing Byakago then she would be on a level surpassing the other Gokage members._

Well she is Tsunade, she can heal herself from scratches, but I meant her not getting stabbed would be better than just taking all the swords inside her belly....
So what? her being better than the other Kage sounds fine to me, just think about it, worlds best ninja medic, she's smarter than the other kages, she's stronger than them, she has a way of inmortality, I mean she has enough stuff to say she is better than them, but she didn't show that, but her healing skills were needed A LOT.


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## Charmed (Apr 26, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Orochiamaru without his jutsu was toying with 4 tails.
> Jiraiya when trying to test *if naruto could control fox power was caught offguard*
> But even with his *grave injuries still managed to revert naruto *
> 
> ...



Oh she wasn't rusty, she was having a tough time against Kabuto couse he is Jounin level, and she wasn't using her best jutsu, but later on that fight she was able to actually do better than the other 2 Sannin.

Am you mean the databook? she has 5 in Taijutsu? well that meansthat she is more of a TAIJUTSU type than let's say, a Speedster for example (I don't know what's her lowest stat n.n)
That doesn't mean anything in terms of battling somebody, for example Kakashi has a sharingan and superior speed so he probably is better in CQC than Tsunade.

Yeah sure friend .. here



The  only Sannin that has hype comparable to some of the Akatsuki is Orochimaru, still he's kinda like a fraud (I can explain here if you want)..

Against those 3 Pains? pretty much all the Akatsuki except Hidan, and I can see the other 2 Sannin taking the 3 PATHS as well.
If you mean taking the 6 Paths at the same time, it's an overkill for any Akatsuki and/or Sannin.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 26, 2017)

Tsunade was rusty, that's a canon fact @Charmed it's indisputable in all shapes and forms. What people do wrong on these forums is they overrate her non rusty self. Tsunade didn't suddenly grow much more reflexive, accurate and speedy, granted she grew on a small level, it's nothing that's going to shoot her up a tier. P1 Kabuto on those food pills would still her a good run for her money until she brings out Katsuyu.

At most one could argue she was fighting debt collectors and such, but she wasn't in Kage level, all out kind of battles, and thus she's rusty to some extent, it's not like she was out there fighting opponents even on the level of a Low Kage level like Sasori, 

The gap between Rusty Tsunade and Non Rusty Tsunade is small, but not insignificant. For example, an active Tsunade isn't going to beat opponents that Rusty Tsunade can't unless the gap is minimal in their overall power, for example...Tsunade>Sakura>Rusty Tsunade. Again, the gap is small but not by any means non existent.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 26, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> You acknowledge Jiraiya can make big swamps but then you give him plot induced stupidity(PIS) and say he'll only make one human sized



Didn't he do that vs Animal path 



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Hashirama would only make wood golems and dragons the size of his opponents,



Show me Hashi bringing out his big techs vs anyone who wasn't absurdly powerful or in a huge form of their own.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> And does Deidara magically get into the air? Or does he not have to get onto his bird first? If hes on the ground he has a chance of getting sunk a real good chance, simple



You sannin wankers truly love spewing Sannin BS, but when their hype backfires (makes their opponent extremely cautious) all of the sudden that hype is gone until you can use it to your benefit again, it's very annoying.

Deidara won't be fucking around vs one of the Sannin who are known worldwide, it's not Hebi Sasuke ffs. Deidara was quite literally toying with Sasuke, and Deidara was barely half serious when he got on his clay bird, it's a reasonable assumption to say that Deidara is breaking out his bird right away.

On the flip side, Jiraiya presumably doesn't know shit about Deidara besides that he was 

1. Involved in terrorist bombings 
and
2. A former Shinobi of Iwagakure

You can say "but he collected intel", yet he had nothing to show for his years of espionage, similar to Itachi. I'll tell ya one thing, if Jiraiya knew jack shit about the Akatsuki, he would've been shitting his pants at the idea of taking on Itachi, let alone saying something as ludicrous as "i'll kill you AND Kisame". Jiraiya didn't know shit about any Akatsuki member besides the fact that they were

1. High rated Shinobi
2. Not up to good deeds

Jiraiya failed at gathering intel on the Akatsuki just like Itachi failed to deliver intel to Konoha.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Veracity (Apr 26, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Nop I ment Tsunade being in the highest of the Low Kage league  you get me? x'D
> Like that's near to mid kage league.
> 
> Nah, she ain't rusty, she just wasn't using her best jutsu, couse remember she defeated Orochimaru with 1 hit later in the same battle.
> ...



Oh well that's crazy. But guess it's just your opinion and no amount of facts is going to change that. Oh well.

Wait so even if Jirayia and Oro outright state that Tsunade was in a fallen state you're just ignore it? 

Yeah but you also didn't see Raikage landing any hits. Raikage uses his speed to gain advantage while Tsuande uses her regeneration. Both take up a good deal of chakra but both are effective in their own right. Difference is that Ay would have sustain major injuries( which he couldn't just heal) if not for Onoki in a situation that he put himself in anyway. Tsuande was fine regardless.

That's the thing. You can't just look at numbers without looking at overall value too. 5 Sussano clones are harder to beat than 100 puppets anyway day. That's undisputed. 

How was Mei doing better than Tsuande when she would have died? How was Ay doing better than Tsuande when he would have sustained major damage that he couldn't heal? 

The clones were fast enough to hit all the Kages atleast once They weren't slow.

Because her healing skills are apart of her arsenal. The same way RnY is apart of Ay's or Sand is apart of Gaara's or Kekkei Genkei is apart of Mei's. take that away and they take a big hit.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Charmed (Apr 26, 2017)

Bonly said:


> That's Deidara's own fault but again not every fight is gonna to be a fair fight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why wouldn't Gaara go for the kill, I mean he knew Akatsuki was after him, adn Deidara was trying to kill the entire village with a C3, that's enough to wanting to kill Deidara, it's just that he couldn't.

I know, Deidara was the one that didn't go for the kill, C0 would be Gaara's doom.

And that battle with Yugito Nii we couldn't see it, how do you know if Kakuzu didn't use Domu so he wouldn't, or use a water clone or whatever. But we do know they both, Kakuzu and Hidan finished her withou evena single scratch, and without even losing a single heart, or a broken Scythe.

The proof is that Sanbi had no Jinchuuriki so he was very ease to defeat, you can see Deidara so clean and calm after the fight.

Yes as you said, it was just plot, because Naruto is Naruto, as simple as that, even if the Akatsuki tag teamed him they would fail.
But the other 8 Jinchuuriki were captured without that much trouble.

Well it just seemed to me that both Sannin had a hard time against Naruto, though I'm not saying they're weak.
Like for example Itachi defeated orochimaru twice without even moving a finger.. literally.
Remember in PT1 when Kisame and Itachi were saying they would get killed by Jiriaya? this is just a lie, I mean you can't really believe this...
Kisame can handle Jinchuuriki and Biju without any problem while Jiraiya and Orochimaru can't, and the 3 Sannin are suppoesed to be around the same level.
So yeah, doing the math, the Akatsuki are just better, I mean, nobody in Akatsuki was afraid of them, like at all, Sasori wasn't afraid of Orochimaru, Deidara as Sasori, was ready to take Oro down, etc.


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## Charmed (Apr 26, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Oh well that's crazy. But guess it's just your opinion and no amount of facts is going to change that. Oh well.
> 
> Wait so even if Jirayia and Oro outright state that Tsunade was in a fallen state you're just ignore it?
> 
> ...


:3

It's not crazy, crazy is saying Sasori is just a Jounin or chunin defeating S-ranks etc... now that's crazy x'D.

But the thing is they never get stabbed but Tsunade did. (It's a good thing she has regeneration though). But it doesn't help her evasive feats nor her speed or CQC abilities.

Mei was getting stabbed but Gaara helped her remember? this means Madara indeed was trying to kill them all at some point, but this is proof that before "Mei Getting stabbed moment" she was doing better than Tsunade as well as the other Kage.

100 Puppets it's just diffrent, they are more, so the attacks come from all places at once, puppets have traps, poison , etc. And Sasori is not playing around. It's just different.


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## Mar55 (Apr 26, 2017)

Stupid question is still stupid.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 26, 2017)

professor83 said:


> *Imperfect jinchuriki
> Gaara: Still took away deidaras arm in a unfavorable match where he had to defend his village
> Kisame had trouble with 4 tails
> 3 tails had no host
> ...



"unfavorable match"-Literally has a fucking desert at his disposal 
"Had trouble with 4 tails"-Forgets to mention that Kisame also says "without killing him", for the record he didn't even give that same praise to Killer Bee, implying Roshi>Bee, at minimum due to matchup
Yugito is an interesting one- Can Bijuu's not bleed? All it takes is a single cut from Hidan
Taka didn't get destroyed by Base Bee, Sasuke got outmatched in CQC, Bee was only decisively winning the matchup when he went V1, then he was one shotting shit, BM was overkill as far as i'm concerned
Kisame recovered in moments, Bee can spam Bijuudama all he wants, doesn't matter, the Anti-Bijuu of the Akatsuki has perfect techs for matching Bijuus. Bijuudama gets raped by Daikodan, BM gets raped by 1000 feeding sharks etc etc. Kishi designed Kisame to be the anti-bijuu, *outside of Naruto,* Kisame losing to a Jinchuuriki, perfect or imperfect is out of the question.


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## Mar55 (Apr 26, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame losing to a Jinchuuriki, perfect or imperfect is out of the question.


He dies to first TBB any of them use on him. Or, they beat him to death with their size and speed. Just because he's a great counter for V1 and V2 doesn't magically make him anti-Biju.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 26, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> He dies to first TBB any of them use on him. Or, they beat him to death with their size and speed. Just because he's a great counter for V1 and V2 doesn't magically make him anti-Biju.



Bijuudama-Meet Daikodan
BM-Meet 1000 feeding sharks



Troyse22 said:


> Kishi designed Kisame to be the anti-bijuu


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## Mar55 (Apr 26, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Bijuudama-Meet Daikodan
> BM-Meet 1000 feeding sharks


Yeah, where are those feats supporting this? Oh, they don't exist? What a shame.

Repeating yourself doesn't make you right. You can do better.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 26, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> Yeah, where are those feats supporting this? Oh, they don't exist? What a shame.










The sheer scale of 1000 feeding sharks is what defeats BM, no Jin (bar Naruto) can clear it without suffering serious, life threatening damage or straight up death.

Sometimes, things are implicit. Kisame was the strongest Bijuu counter in the Akatsuki, just because he hasn't used those techs vs a Bijuu doesn't mean they're suddenly worthless. All of his techs as described are perfect counters to Bijuu, it would be absurd to assume the thing he's best at (hunting, defeating/killing Bijuu) is something he can't handle. It's like saying Tsunade can't heal wounds, or Orochimaru can't regenerate, or Itachi can't use genjutsu etc etc, it's all just ludicrous. 

It's the same reason everyone, including myself accept Jiraiya can probably make Bijuu sized Yomi Numa's while in SM, sometimes things are just universally accepted despite not having the feats supporting, this is where we look at how the shinobi and their techs are portrayed as well as their hype. If, for example Kisame's Daikodan was overpowered by a FRS (laughable, but it's for example) then I wouldn't go along saying Kisame can absorb a Bijuudama just because he's hyped as the best Jin hunter. Sometimes, because we're rational thinking human beings, need to draw conclusions from what we're given.

Feats beat hype and portrayal any day of the week, and I will always stick to that, but when we don't have feats, we look at portrayal and hype.


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## Mar55 (Apr 26, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> The sheer scale of 1000 feeding sharks is what defeats BM, no Jin (bar Naruto) can clear it without suffering serious, life threatening damage or straight up death.
> 
> Sometimes, things are implicit. Kisame was the strongest Bijuu counter in the Akatsuki, just because he hasn't used those techs vs a Bijuu doesn't mean they're suddenly worthless. All of his techs as described are perfect counters to Bijuu, it would be absurd to assume the thing he's best at (hunting, defeating/killing Bijuu) is something he can't handle. It's like saying Tsunade can't heal wounds, or Orochimaru can't regenerate, or Itachi can't use genjutsu etc etc, it's all just ludicrous.
> 
> ...


In all that, not one feat to supports a TBB can be absorbed by that featless shark. Nor one feat that supports BM < sharks. Especially since every Biju can just TBB them and Kisame and be done with it.

So, please learn what "pot meet kettle" means. Then, find some feats. When you do, get back to me.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 26, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> So, please learn what "pot meet kettle" means. Then, find some feats. When you do, get back to me


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## Mar55 (Apr 26, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


>


Implying you used that phrase correctly, or used any actual feats. Hilarious.


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## The_Conqueror (Apr 26, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Oh she wasn't rusty, she was having a tough time against Kabuto couse he is Jounin level, and she wasn't using her best jutsu, but later on that fight she was able to actually do better than the other 2 Sannin.


It was clear when she got her confidence back and started using her nin jutsu she was doing better than jutsuless and drugged sanin



Charmed said:


> Yeah sure friend .. here


 






Charmed said:


> The only Sannin that has hype comparable to some of the Akatsuki is Orochimaru, still he's kinda like a fraud (I can explain here if you want)..


Jiraiya clearly has superior hype compared to orochimaruin the manga. *Kisame one of the strongest members of Akatsuki admitted inferiority and was in verge of getting one paneled *so?  




Charmed said:


> Against those 3 Pains? pretty much all the Akatsuki except Hidan, and I can see the other 2 Sannin taking the 3 PATHS as well.
> If you mean taking the 6 Paths at the same time, it's an overkill for any Akatsuki and/or Sannin.



Most of them won't have a wont have thief way out with cereberus . Your ninjutsu is ineffective. Your taijutsu is of no use with constant summons and 360 vision. No blindside attack works . So? I doubt a single of akatsuki would do clear that situation
Also remember jiraiya one paneling konan


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## Bonly (Apr 26, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Why wouldn't Gaara go for the kill, I mean he knew Akatsuki was after him, adn Deidara was trying to kill the entire village with a C3, that's enough to wanting to kill Deidara, it's just that he couldn't.
> 
> I know, Deidara was the one that didn't go for the kill, C0 would be Gaara's doom.



Gaara wanted to catch Deidara alive and question him on why he attacked.



> And that battle with Yugito Nii we couldn't see it, how do you know if Kakuzu didn't use Domu so he wouldn't, or use a water clone or whatever. But we do know they both, Kakuzu and Hidan finished her withou evena single scratch, and without even losing a single heart, or a broken Scythe.



Kakuzu needs to make a handseal in order to use Domu and as we saw he caught Yugito's paw and was slammed into the ground meaning no Domu. Once again your idea of "oh hey they look fine" doesn't mean they never got hit and didn't have problems.



> The proof is that Sanbi had no Jinchuuriki so he was very ease to defeat, you can see Deidara so clean and calm after the fight.



Once again that's not proof that he was one shot. Did he lose? Sure but again that's not proof that he was one shot.



> Yes as you said, it was just plot, because Naruto is Naruto, as simple as that, even if the Akatsuki tag teamed him they would fail.
> 
> Well it just seemed to me that both Sannin had a hard time against Naruto, though I'm not saying they're weak.



Again everything is plot. I might as well say that the only reason why the Akatsuki caught the other Jins/Bijuu is due to plot. Fact of the matter is that they all failed but you make excuses for them but if Orochi and Jiraiya have problems with Naruto, the strongest Jins then it's suppose to be not impressive for the Sannin? Seems just like a biased view from you imo



> But the other 8 Jinchuuriki were captured without that much trouble.



It was canonly shown that a few of them had problems so you're wrong.



> Like for example Itachi defeated orochimaru twice without even moving a finger.. literally.
> Remember in PT1 when Kisame and Itachi were saying they would get killed by Jiriaya? this is just a lie, I mean you can't really believe this...
> Kisame can handle Jinchuuriki and Biju without any problem while Jiraiya and Orochimaru can't, and the 3 Sannin are suppoesed to be around the same level.
> So yeah, doing the math, the Akatsuki are just better, I mean, nobody in Akatsuki was afraid of them, like at all, Sasori wasn't afraid of Orochimaru, Deidara as Sasori, was ready to take Oro down, etc.



AT this point you're a lost cause and I don't see a point in wasting my time anymore if your only point is that Sannin had problems with Naruto so the other Akatsuki members are better/ more impressive, good day

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sadgoob (Apr 26, 2017)

Blu-ray said:


> How is this even a question when a Sannin _was a member of Akatsuki?_



He got kicked out. Wasn't good enough.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 2


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 26, 2017)

> Orochimaru was in the Akatsuki
> Tsunade defeated him
> Kisame admitted inferiority to Jiraiya

/thread

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Blu-ray (Apr 26, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> He got kicked out. Wasn't good enough.


He didn't get kicked out, he left.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 26, 2017)

Blu-ray said:


> He didn't get kicked out, he ran like a little bitch punk.



Ftfy man


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## Troyse22 (Apr 26, 2017)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> > Orochimaru was in the Akatsuki
> > Tsunade defeated him
> > Kisame admitted inferiority to Jiraiya
> 
> /thread



Oro ran from the Akatsuki because he was too weak in comparison to high rated members.

Oro saved Tsunade in War Arc.

Kisame admitted inferiority to Jiraiya before he got all of his crazy techs in P2, which presumably didn't exist in P1. Jiraiya would get bitch slapped down by Kisame in an actual battle to the death

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Veracity (Apr 26, 2017)

Charmed said:


> :3
> 
> It's not crazy, crazy is saying Sasori is just a Jounin or chunin defeating S-ranks etc... now that's crazy x'D.
> 
> ...



Naw crazy is like saying Sasori or Tsuande are low Kage Level shinobi and would struggle against Hidan. That's crazy.

Tsuande can afford to be stabbed because of regeneration and if she chose to evade the entire time, she would never really land an attacks. And if she could evade all the Sussano clones and land attacks without Byakago then Tsuande is clearly the most powerful Gokage memeber.

You can infer her evasive skills by manga statements. The same you can infer that Hashirama has Sage sensing despite never showing it. 

Why does that matter? Who cares how Mei was doing in the middle of the battle? End result was Mei dying and Tsunade not. So Tsunade lasted better than Mei without outside interference.

You really think so? Make a thread about 5 Sussano clones vs Sasori or place them in juxtaposition on how shinobi far against them. You're gonna see a clear winning side. And it's not Sasori lol


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## Veracity (Apr 26, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Oro ran from the Akatsuki because he was too weak in comparison to high rated members.
> 
> *Oro saved Tsunade in War Arc*.
> 
> Kisame admitted inferiority to Jiraiya before he got all of his crazy techs in P2, which presumably didn't exist in P1. Jiraiya would get bitch slapped down by Kisame in an actual battle to the death


How is the bold relevant


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## Santoryu (Apr 26, 2017)

Since this thread has served its suspicious purpose.



Kakashi's better than all of them

Reactions: Like 1


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## Alex Payne (Apr 26, 2017)

More than a hundred replies. How low has this place fallen.


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## Charmed (Apr 26, 2017)

professor83 said:


> It was clear when she got her confidence back and started using her nin jutsu she was doing better than jutsuless and drugged sanin
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes she was, but still her evasion and reflexes aren't that good :/

It seems like many shinobi were called "The strongest Shinobi", it would be interesting to know by who.
Like for example, Kabuto says in your san that it's said that Sandaime Hokage 9is the strongest of all 5 kage just because he is the Hokage...

I don't think so, Orochimaru has better hype, for example he invaded the leaf village, he created the sound village, he has killed the 4th Kazekage (with a little help of Sasori's spies + Kimi + Kabuto), the 3 Hokage (with a lot of trouble), he's got Edo Tensei which is a terrible  and unfair jutsu, he's got 1 of the legendary weapons at his dispposal, and yeah his one of the Legendary Sannin, has Hydra form, has a way of "inmortality", knows 1000 jutsu i think (?)... 

Orochimaru has the best Hype of all the 3 Sannin,by far, comparable to the Akatsuki members, to bad he's more like a fraud that always runs away x'D


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## Charmed (Apr 26, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> "unfavorable match"-Literally has a fucking desert at his disposal
> "Had trouble with 4 tails"-Forgets to mention that Kisame also says "without killing him", for the record he didn't even give that same praise to Killer Bee, implying Roshi>Bee, at minimum due to matchup
> Yugito is an interesting one- Can Bijuu's not bleed? All it takes is a single cut from Hidan
> Taka didn't get destroyed by Base Bee, Sasuke got outmatched in CQC, Bee was only decisively winning the matchup when he went V1, then he was one shotting shit, BM was overkill as far as i'm concerned
> Kisame recovered in moments, Bee can spam Bijuudama all he wants, doesn't matter, the Anti-Bijuu of the Akatsuki has perfect techs for matching Bijuus. Bijuudama gets raped by Daikodan, BM gets raped by 1000 feeding sharks etc etc. Kishi designed Kisame to be the anti-bijuu, *outside of Naruto,* Kisame losing to a Jinchuuriki, perfect or imperfect is out of the question.



I don't know, but I can't see Kisame absorbing BD, but I believe a Bijudama is not even an instant win either, I mean Akatsuki members have been fighting full Biju they should have answers and knowledge of a Bijudama right? So it makes sense to me they're not gettting killed  by it.

I remmeber Karin and Sasuke didn't even get damaged by Hachibi's Bijudama, and this thing had a huge area of damage, this means escaping or running is impossible but still they didn't seemed damaged like at all...


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 27, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Oro ran from the Akatsuki because he was too weak in comparison to high rated members.



He was weaker than Itachi and Pain, no one else.



> Oro saved Tsunade in War Arc.



Because she'd been chopped in half by Edo Madara, who's stronger than any of the other Akatsuki members.



> Kisame admitted inferiority to Jiraiya before he got all of his crazy techs in P2, which presumably didn't exist in P1. Jiraiya would get bitch slapped down by Kisame in an actual battle to the death



Nah, regardless of how great you think Kisame's feats are, he openly admitted inferiority. So it's clear that Kishimoto wants us to believe that Jiraiya is stronger.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 27, 2017)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Nah, regardless of how great you think Kisame's feats are, he openly admitted inferiority. So it's clear that Kishimoto wants us to believe that Jiraiya is stronger.



So statements, in your mind, beat feats?

It's pretty clear Kishi wanted us to view Kisame on a much greater power level than the Sannin, since his feats came after his statement, but who am I kidding, just another Sannin wanker.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Yoko (Apr 29, 2017)

"Sannin-level" and "Akatsuki-level" should not be actual terms used here given the disparity between the members of each group.  The term "Sannin" describes a trio whose collective efforts were insufficient to defeat Hanzo - it ranges anywhere from Sage Mode Jiraiya to Part 1 Tsunade.  Likewise, Hidan and Nagato both fall under the "Akatsuki" umbrella, despite the astronomical difference in their power.  In Orochimaru's case, he falls under both groups.

My opinion on where the Sannin stand relative to Akatsuki:

1. Nagato
2. MS Obito
3. Itachi
4. SM Jiraiya
5. Orochimaru (not sick, Hydra and arms accessible)
6. Kisame
7. Kakuzu
8. Deidara
9. Sasori 
10. Konan 
11. Tsunade 
12. Hidan

To answer your question - yes, some of the Sannin can beat some of the Akatsuki members.  As far as your issue with accomplishments - as I stated earlier, the Sannin earned their "titles" back in their "scrub" days.  Them losing a 3 vs. 1 fight was what gave them the Sannin title, so alone the phrase is meaningless when tracing it back to its source.  Since their loss to Hanzo, it can be assumed they each got stronger since then.

Jiraiya's feats against Pain speak for themselves as do Orochimaru's feats against KN4 Naruto, Hebi Sasuke and Itachi - it isn't the Sannin title that defines them but what they've done afterwards.  Tsunade is an established medic and serves as good support, but falls short when compared with her peers - thus why I'm not a fan of throwing around the term "Sannin-level" when a large disparity in power exists between its "members."

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Trojan (Apr 29, 2017)

Charmed said:


> I used to think they can take on some of the Akatsuki, but now I don't know...


Jiraiya Vs Konan = Konan gets one shotted
Jiraiya Vs Kisame = Kisame gets one shotted (had it not been for itachi)

Itachi admits that he is weaker than Jiraiya
Pain lost 3 bodies (lose another one again) and admits that he wouldn't have won had Jiraiya had more knowledge


mmm, yes. Therefore, he is more or less above Akatsuki's level.
Save for Nagato/Pain and possibly Obito. 


Of course, Oro with ET will trash all of them.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Mr Dicklesworth (Apr 29, 2017)

So, because Orochimaru lost to Itachi and Tsunade lost to Madara, that automatically gives ever other member of the Akatsuki the same feat. Interesting logic...

I guess that means Konohamaru could take out Juubi Obito because he solo'd a pain body, since both of them were "Akatsuki Tier"


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## Troyse22 (Apr 29, 2017)

Mr Dicklesworth said:


> So, because Orochimaru lost to Itachi and Tsunade lost to Madara, that automatically gives ever other member of the Akatsuki the same feat. Interesting logic...
> 
> I guess that means Konohamaru could take out Juubi Obito because he solo'd a pain body, since both of them were "Akatsuki Tier"




It's arguable if any path bar Deva is kage level alone.



Hussain said:


> Jiraiya Vs Kisame = Kisame gets one shotted (had it not been for itachi)




Remember when the manga went past P2? Yeah, I didn't think u did


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## Trojan (Apr 29, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Remember when the manga went past P2? Yeah, I didn't think u did


Ok? 

How does that change anything exactly?

You stupidly act as if Kisame is the only one who got to show more shit in part 2. When Jiraiya was taking on his boss!


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## Troyse22 (Apr 29, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Ok?
> 
> How does that change anything exactly?
> 
> You stupidly act as if Kisame is the only one who got to show more shit in part 2. When Jiraiya was taking on his boss!




And got bitch slapped down with neg diff without Deva even lifting a finger 

Kisame also got way way way more things in P2 than Jiraiya. Jiraiyas perceived power level barely changed, if at all, whereas Kisame jumped literal tiers from P1 to P2. Kisame sits firmly at Nagatos level, under Obito, all 3 of which would neg Jiraiya with shit diff

Reactions: Funny 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Apr 29, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame sits firmly at Nagatos level


*Anyone* sitting *firmly* at Uzumaki Nagatos level was a very relevant character. You could take out every chapter with Kisame and legitimately have the same exact manga.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 29, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> *Anyone* sitting *firmly* at Uzumaki Nagatos level was a very relevant character. You could take out every chapter with Kisame and legitimately have the same exact manga.




Kisame not being as relevant as Nagato in the manga doesn't equate to him not being as powerful. 

He also captured Roshi solo, a man who, in Zetsus "Kisames" opinion is stronger than Killer Bee. I find it hard to believe that any low tier Shinobi can beat jins down rather casually.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Apr 29, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame not being as relevant as Nagato in the manga doesn't equate to him not being as powerful.
> 
> He also captured Roshi solo, a man who, in Zetsus "Kisames" opinion is stronger than Killer Bee. I find it hard to believe that any low tier Shinobi can beat jins down rather casually.


yea alright


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## Troyse22 (Apr 29, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> yea alright




Concession accepted

Reactions: Agree 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Apr 29, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Concession accepted


cant ignore manga facts


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## Troyse22 (Apr 29, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> cant ignore manga facts



It'd be nice if you took your own advice


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## HandfullofNaruto (Apr 29, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> It'd be nice if you took your own advice


I'm above it, others aren't.​


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## Charmed (Apr 29, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame not being as relevant as Nagato in the manga doesn't equate to him not being as powerful.
> 
> He also captured Roshi solo, a man who, in Zetsus "Kisames" opinion is stronger than Killer Bee. I find it hard to believe that any low tier Shinobi can beat jins down rather casually.


were do they say that Roshi is stronger than Bee? o.o that's interesting! may I see it?


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## Troyse22 (Apr 29, 2017)

Charmed said:


> were do they say that Roshi is stronger than Bee? o.o that's interesting! may I see it?



Restricted Kisame says Roshi gave him a hard time, whereas he didn't give the same praise to Bee.

If we factor in stuff like YCM and shit, there's no reason to doubt Kisames statements and/or lack thereof


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## HandfullofNaruto (Apr 29, 2017)

Charmed said:


> were do they say that Roshi is stronger than Bee? o.o that's interesting! may I see it?


Zetsu states that Hachibi wasn't too tough while Hoshigaki Kisame states that Roshi was a challenge for himself.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Apr 29, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Restricted Kisame says Roshi gave him a hard time, whereas he didn't give the same praise to Bee. If we factor in stuff like YCM and shit, there's no reason to doubt Kisames statements and/or lack thereof


Why because Hoshigaki Kisame would be forced to absorb it? Wouldn't his most basic Suitons counter YCM?


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## Charmed (Apr 29, 2017)

@Troyse22 
@HandfullofNaruto 

Oh I see... I thought that Roshi was an easier target for Kisame couse water> lava, and besides Bee is a Perfect Jinchuuriki right?, and iirc Roshi isn't? like the guy didn't even know 4 Tails real name (Son Goku),

Why do you believe Roshi > Bee Troyse?


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## HandfullofNaruto (Apr 29, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Why do you believe Roshi > Bee Troyse?


He believes Roshi > Bee because Kisame states Roshi gave him trouble while Zetsu states that he thought Hachibi would be tougher (after his battle with Kisame).


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## Charmed (Apr 29, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> He believes Roshi > Bee because Kisame states Roshi gave him trouble while Zetsu states that he thought Hachibi would be tougher (after his battle with Kisame).


wow! interesting... jmm
I don't know what to think then 

I always though Killer Bee was the 2nd strongest Jinchuuriki, like it  makes sense...


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## HandfullofNaruto (Apr 29, 2017)

Charmed said:


> wow! interesting... jmm I don't know what to think then
> I always though Killer Bee was the 2nd strongest Jinchuuriki, like it makes sense...


Yea it would make 100% sense that the host of the eight tails who is a Perfect Jinchuriki is superior to a non-perfect Jinchuriki of the four-tails but what can you do when two separate characters make different comments on how they felt the Jinchuriki stacked up.. you just go with whatever makes Kisame look good and call it a day.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Charmed (Apr 29, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Yea it would make 100% sense that the host of the eight tails who is a Perfect Jinchuriki is superior to a non-perfect Jinchuriki of the four-tails but what can you do when two separate characters make different comments on how they felt the Jinchuriki stacked up.. you just go with whatever makes Kisame look good and call it a day.


excuse me do you know who are the Perfect Jinchuuriki? like besides Naruto adn Bee, who else?


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## Tri (Apr 29, 2017)

Charmed said:


> excuse me do you know who are the Perfect Jinchuuriki? like besides Naruto adn Bee, who else?


Naruto, Bee, and Yagura, that's it. Yugito showcased the ability to actively go into BM but was never stated to be a perfect Jin.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Charmed (Apr 29, 2017)

Trizalgia said:


> Naruto, Bee, and Yagura, that's it. Yugito showcased the ability to actively go into BM but was never stated to be a perfect Jin.


thank you :'3

Then Yugito sound like a Perfect Jinchuuriki to me o.0!


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## Troyse22 (Apr 30, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Why because Hoshigaki Kisame would be forced to absorb it? Wouldn't his most basic Suitons counter YCM?



Doubtful. It's a continuous Chakra cloak.

Samehada probably counters it, but not regular Suitons.



HandfullofNaruto said:


> Yea it would make 100% sense that the host of the eight tails who is a Perfect Jinchuriki is superior to a non-perfect Jinchuriki of the four-tails but what can you do when two separate characters make different comments on how they felt the Jinchuriki stacked up.. you just go with whatever makes Kisame look good and call it a day.




Has nothing to do with making Kisame look good (you overestimate how much I give a shit) it's just the truth based off of those statements.

Roshi gave restricted Kisame a harder time than Killer Bee, that's just a fact. That's about all we can conclude since Roshi was offpaneled.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Apr 30, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Doubtful. It's a continuous Chakra cloak. Samehada probably counters it, but not regular Suitons. Has nothing to do with making Kisame look good (you overestimate how much I give a shit) it's just the truth based off of those statements. Roshi gave restricted Kisame a harder time than Killer Bee, that's just a fact. That's about all we can conclude since Roshi was offpaneled.


Actually I forefit my initial comment - all Hoshigaki Kisame notes about Roshi is that "the corrosion style of this Jinchuriki is nothing to laugh at" which implies he had trouble dealing with it which is odd as a regular lake (like the one he created at 30% when facing Maito Gai) should completely turn the tables in his favor right? He's not an idiot or a bad owner of Samehada & isn't forced into CQC as he has many ranged ninjutsu (all of which are Suitons which should be a hard-counter) so he wouldn't be in too much trouble. Anyway there is nothing to indicate Kisame had a tougher time with Roshi than Killer Bee as his comment hardly tells us that the battle was tough.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sapherosth (Apr 30, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Zetsu states that Hachibi wasn't too tough while Hoshigaki Kisame states that Roshi was a challenge for himself.




I am surprised @Troyse22  didn't know this, since he didn't tell you that Kisame was the one who said it, NOT Zetsu.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Apr 30, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> I am surprised @Troyse22  didn't know this, since he didn't tell you that Kisame was the one who said it, NOT Zetsu.


If I remember correctly Kisame (actually it could've been Zetsu - I don't remember who) states that they switched places right before Waterdome came down which means it's Zetsu's Statement. Am I mistaken?


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## Troyse22 (Apr 30, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> If I remember correctly Kisame (actually it could've been Zetsu - I don't remember who) states that they switched places right before Waterdome came down which means it's Zetsu's Statement. Am I mistaken?


It was Zetsu who stated it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 30, 2017)

*Top*
Obito/Kabuto
Nagato
Pain

*High Kage*
Itachi/*Jiraiya*
Sasuke
*Orochimaru*

*Mid Kage*
Deidara
Kakuzu
*Tsunade*
Kisame
Suigetsu
Sasori*

*Low Kage*
Juugo
Hidan
Konan

*Jounin*
Zetsu
Karin

Sannin should have the advantage on anyone below them with the exception of Sasori who stands a chance against all of them equally. All characters are ranked in an overall assessment with more of an emphasis on 1 vs. 1 battles under neutral conditions (i.e. 35 m, neutral location, IC, no restrictions with whatever knowledge they had on them in the manga).

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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2017)

Higher Akatsuki tier would be like Nagato-Pain and Obito, the lower are the rest.

The Sannin are defo within Akatsuki's level defo the lower batch which includes Itachi, Kisame, Sasori, Kakuzu etc.

Though, that said, Orochimaru with Zetsu and Kabuto's intel, I'm unsure where to place.


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## ARGUS (Apr 30, 2017)

Since there is no manga indication or logical reasoning to claim that itachi is 1/100th the power of orochimaru, and  Jiraiya is tiers above Nagato (who is ties above the others) as feats show. Means that base Sannin solo them altogether, let Alone their powered states who not even hagoromo could beat


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## nmwn93 (May 1, 2017)

Mei was doing BETTER THAN TSUNADE AGAINST THE 5 SUSANOOS?????! mannn you must be high than a muther fucka lol. mei and garra were down. A was caught in GENJUTSU. tsunade flattened a susanoo in one blow. and oonoki was living a bosses life lol. her and oonoki were literally #1 and 1 prime in that fight. stop the bull

Reactions: Like 1


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## nmwn93 (May 1, 2017)

*each of the sannin would rank in  the same ranking first of all. and they are all indeed Akatsuki level. you mentioned her "struggle with kabuto" bs. that was meerely a writing device to show kabuto had some talent hell by that token part one sasuke gave orochimaru trouble during the chunnin exam. lol  fact is tsunade one shotted orochimaru in her own equally weakened state. *


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## NightingaleOfShadows (May 2, 2017)

Why is this thread still active lmao like there was one question and that was if the Sannin where Akatsuki lvl and I would hope by now that people know they definitely are...


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## Troyse22 (May 2, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Why is this thread still active lmao like there was one question and that was if the Sannin where Akatsuki lvl and I would hope by now that people know they definitely are...




Only a fool would assume they aren't, they just aren't upper Akatsuki level.


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## NightingaleOfShadows (May 2, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> It's pretty clear Kishi wanted us to view Kisame on a much greater power level than the Sannin



My god they need to cure cancer, honestly wtf is this "much greater power level"... fuck out of here with that BS and "it's pretty clear" are you reading the Great Value version of the Manga because literally this is BS like your honesty the biggest fanboy ive ever seen, like the shit you say about Kisame in terms of power is not even remotely believable like really the people that actually believe the stuff you say about him obviously haven't read the manga or read the Great Value version of the Manga like you must've been doing...


Troyse22 said:


> but who am I kidding, just another Sannin wanker.


but who am I kidding, just another Kisame wanker

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (May 2, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> My god they need to cure cancer, honestly wtf is this "much greater power level"... fuck out of here with that BS and "it's pretty clear" are you reading the Great Value version of the Manga because literally this is BS like your honesty the biggest fanboy ive ever seen, like the shit you say about Kisame in terms of power is not even remotely believable like really the people that actually believe the stuff you say about him obviously haven't read the manga or read the Great Value version of the Manga like you must've been doing...
> 
> but who am I kidding, just another Kisame wanker




Don't quote me unless it's to say something of relevance


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## Kai (May 2, 2017)

Lockworthy thread, what kind of question is this. Orochimaru, who is one of he three Sannin, was in Akatsuki



There's also simply no way three shinobi, who on three separate occasions were individually considered for the Hokage position (one who eventually became the Hokage) are not on Akatsuki's level.

IIRC Jiraiya dismantled Konan in only two moves. And did you even read Part 1 OP, when Itachi and Kisame came to Konoha?


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## NightingaleOfShadows (May 2, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Don't quote me unless it's to say something of relevance



By "relevance" you mean proof? Well boy the majority of people thats debated with you before have been showing you and telling you the facts but you choose to be in denial asf for whatever reason, like it actually amazes me that you think Kisame is equal to Nagato  (fucking Nagato) the same Kisame that was scared shitless when Jman summoned a fucking toad stomach and even stated that he was inferior to him (Kisame stated that HIMSELF, but you choose to be like "o well that was part 1" when a statement like that is clearly showing something "relevant" in what Kisame himself thinks, but im sure everything you read that says otherwise about your Kisame claims your just going to ignore them)


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## Anbu Knights (May 2, 2017)

What even is Akatsuki level? That ranges from Konan - Nagato which is a massive gap. This question can't be answered this way. 

If you are asking could each of the Saninn have been recruited based off of manga showings...that would make more sense.

Orochimaru : Quite literally has answered your question while sporting his black robe. 

Jiraiya: Induced praise from a higher ranking Akatsuki member (Kisame), and flattened Konan. His performance against  the paths answer this question easily as well.

Tsunade: Greatest medic in the history of the series excluding Hashirama, and her performance in the war shuts this topic down as far as she is concerned. 


I see what you were going for.... but no. Lol this doesn't make sense when the saninn easily best most of the Akatsuki.


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## NightingaleOfShadows (May 2, 2017)

Why do people keep mentioning Konan getting "one shotted"? Like Jiraiya was Konan's sensei for years so he knew what her exact weakness was which was oil, this oil made Konan's paper stick together making movement and retaliation impossible for her, if Jiraiya didint have oil then it would obviously be an actually battle, and you have to ask yourself who else haves access to oil in the manga?...what like 3 or 4 other people at most, so no she wouldint get one shotted by really about 95% of the people in the manga... only katon, acid, oil, high lvl raiton (enough to disintegrate), doton- Kajūgan no Jutsu have the ability to destroy her paper and she can always regenerate more....

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Anbu Knights (May 2, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Why do people keep mentioning Konan getting "one shotted"? Like Jiraiya was Konan's sensei for years so he knew what her exact weakness was which was oil, this oil made Konan's paper stick together making movement and retaliation impossible for her, if Jiraiya didint have oil then it would obviously be an actually battle, and you have to ask yourself who else haves access to oil in the manga?...what like 3 or 4 other people at most, so no she wouldint get one shotted by really about 95% of the people in the manga... only katon, acid, oil, high lvl raiton (enough to disintegrate), doton- Kajūgan no Jutsu have the ability to destroy her paper and she can always regenerate more....



Jiraiya was Konan's Sensei just as much as she was his student. She should know that her own weakness is oil, and additionally that Jiraiya has access to said substance. She could have taken some kind of precautionary measure... instead she decided to stay in the air derping like a brain dead calf.

Oil is not the lightest of substances. It had to to travel from Jiraiya's position on the ground to Konan's elevated position in the air. The attack was neither coupled with a diversionary tactic or special positioning. It was linear and his cheeks puff up prior to the technique, indicating that his mouth is full of oil.

I'm not convinced that an oil restriction would change the outcome of the battle too much anyways. There was no excuse for her poor performance here.

Guess she just forgot how to ninja.


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## Troyse22 (May 3, 2017)

Anbu Knights said:


> Jiraiya was Konan's Sensei just as much as she was his student. She should know that her own weakness is oil, and additionally that Jiraiya has access to said substance. She could have taken some kind of precautionary measure... instead she decided to stay in the air derping like a brain dead calf.
> 
> Oil is not the lightest of substances. It had to to travel from Jiraiya's position on the ground to Konan's elevated position in the air. The attack was neither coupled with a diversionary tactic or special positioning. It was linear and his checks puff up prior to the technique, indicating that his mouth is full of oil.
> 
> ...




Implying she knew how to be one to begin with.

She was Nagatos nurse, nothing more.



NightingaleOfShadows said:


> By "relevance" you mean proof? Well boy the majority of people thats debated with you before have been showing you and telling you the facts but you choose to be in denial asf for whatever reason, like it actually amazes me that you think Kisame is equal to Nagato  (fucking Nagato) the same Kisame that was scared shitless when Jman summoned a fucking toad stomach and even stated that he was inferior to him (Kisame stated that HIMSELF, but you choose to be like "o well that was part 1" when a statement like that is clearly showing something "relevant" in what Kisame himself thinks, but im sure everything you read that says otherwise about your Kisame claims your just going to ignore them)




You mean that outdated admission of inferiority? Kisame was facing off rather confidently against the murderer of the  Sannin  who  had   the   most   hype, Orochimaru. He also mocked Deidara for losing to the man who killed Orochimaru.
Those statements, actions and his P2 feats put his P1 statement in the trash where it belongs. Not only that but Kisame got serious praise from Obito, who trusted him with taking down the perfect Jin of the second strongest Bijuu, something that normally takes 2 Akatsuki members, and I don't have a doubt in my mind Bee would mop the floor with Pein.

Sorry, but there's way too much evidence pointing to the fact that Kisame is way above the Sannin, the only evidence you have to say otherwise is a trash, outdated P1 statement that Sannin wanking idiots will cling to with their life, despite the manga moving past P1.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## hbcaptain (May 3, 2017)

Sannin are stronger than all Akatsuki members bar Dojutsu trio with a good margin and Oro was an Akatsuki member which means they're Akatsuki level.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Drizzy (May 3, 2017)

*Above Kage:*
Nagato
Pain

*High Kage:*
(Hypothetical) Healthy Itachi
SM Jiraiya

*Med-High Kage:*
Sick Itachi
Kisame

*Med Kage:*
Hebi/Taka Sasuke
Orochimaru (w/ part 1 Edos)
Jiraiya
Tsunade
Kakuzu
Sasori
Deidara

*Low-Med Kage:*
Konan

*Elite Jounin:*
Hidan
Zetsu

The Sannin definitely fit into the ranking of the Akatsuki, which ranges from above Kage level at the highest to Elite Jounin at the absolute lowest. I placed SM Jiraiya and base Jiraiya on different tiers due to the clear difference in power between the two, and the fact that Sennin Mode isn't easily (or guaranteed) accessible in a fight, which is why versus thread stipulations usually have Jiraiya already starting in SM. I also gave Orochimaru his part 1 Edo feats due to him possibly having this ability during his time with the Akatsuki, I see him in the same tier even without it.


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