# Team Sannin vs Team Sharingan



## Aoshi (May 19, 2010)

Jiraiya, Orochimaru & Tsunade vs Itachi, Sasuke & Kakashi.

*Location:* Sannin Battlefield
*Distance:* 25 meters
*SOM:* IC
*Knowledge:* Full
*Conditions:* Jiraiya starts in HM with Ma and Pa on his shoulders. Kakashi can not Kamui the Sannin's bodies. Sasuke is not blind. Itachi is healthy and not blind. 
*Restrictions:* Edo Tensei


Who would win?


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## Shay (May 19, 2010)

Regards,

Frog Song soloes Itachi, Sasuke, and Kakashi?

Itachi can't reverse it since its a song that only frogs can sing, right?

Thank you for your time,
~Shay


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## Smiley (May 19, 2010)

Sannin win while laughing their asses off.

Since Jiraiya starts in HM, he would be more than enough to keep up with all 3 of them at the same time. Also the summons, Toad Army, orochimaru's Manda, Tsunade's katsuyu and Jiraiya's Gamabunta.

Orochimaru's insane durability plays a huge part here, although it has been shown that Itachi is his superior. However Edo tensei basically rapes them all ontop of all the support I said above.

To make this a better match up. Restrict Edo tensei, and Make Jiraiya start in base mode.

EDIT: Correct Shay, you would have to be a Sage to be immune to frog song.


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## Shay (May 19, 2010)

Regards,

Thanks, Kazu.  Yeah, really all the Sannin have to do is summon a Rashomon or something to block LOS while Jiraiya activates the Frog Song.

Thank you for your time,
~Shay


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## Aoshi (May 19, 2010)

I already restricted Edo Tensei. You must have not read this thread properly. You saying HM Jiraiya can take all three of them by himself is laughable. Itachi alone can give him a run for his money. Sasuke's Susano can easily dispatch the summons with it's arrows.


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## Aoshi (May 19, 2010)

Shay said:


> Regards,
> 
> Thanks, Kazu.  Yeah, really all the Sannin have to do is summon a Rashomon or something to block LOS while Jiraiya activates the Frog Song.
> 
> ...



You do realize how long it takes to use Frog Song, right? How would it make a difference even if it's a song only frogs can sing? It's a normal Genjutsu, even though it's a very high level technique. Also, with full knowledge, do you honestly think that they're going to let Orochimaru set up the Gates? Kakashi can essentially Kamui the Gates, or they can attack before he sets them up.


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## Shay (May 19, 2010)

Regards, 

What can they do to STOP Oro from using Rashomon? O_o There are three of them, and it could intercept Fox Ball....

The reason the "only frogs can sing" part matters means Itachi can't reverse it.

Thank you for your time,
~Shay


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## Aoshi (May 19, 2010)

Shay said:


> Regards,
> 
> What can they do to STOP Oro from using Rashomon? O_o There are three of them, and it could intercept Fox Ball....
> 
> ...



Orochimaru takes a decently long time to set up those Gates. In that time, Itachi can Amaterasu one of them, Kakashi can can charge in and distract them, and Sasuke can shoot long range Susano arrows. Also, while Orochimaru sets up the gates, Itachi could simply Genjutsu Orochimaru before he sets them up.


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## Suu (May 19, 2010)

_Sick_ Itachi vs. Jiraiya alone has been known to spark tens of pages of debate.

Kakashi vs Tsunade has been debated twice, and both times the debate spanned over 10 pages.

Orochimaru vs Sasuke I'm not sure of, but it sounds kind of close to me.

This is going to be on hell of a thread. Actually, I'm wondering if this is a little unfair towards Team Sannin...


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## Sanbi (May 19, 2010)

People do realize how short Frog Song takes to set up right? The Pain bodies heard it, blitzed Jiraiya who was in the next corridor and then got caught. It takes little amount of time, considering how fast ninjas move at. Pain barely covered that much distance, and as soon as he did he was caught.


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## Shay (May 19, 2010)

Regards,



> Orochimaru takes a decently long time to set up those Gates. In that time, Itachi can Amaterasu one of them, Kakashi can can charge in and distract them, and Sasuke can shoot long range Susano arrows. Also, while Orochimaru sets up the gates, Itachi could simply Genjutsu Orochimaru before he sets them up.



Orochimaru summoned the gates instantaneously against Naruto. What are you talking about? O_o

They could tank KYUUBI BEAMS. Amaterasu isn't doing anything to them.

Thank you for your time,
~Shay


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## daschysta (May 19, 2010)

Why gimp team sharingan, and buff team sannin.

Sannin win under this condition, due to frog song, but if jiraiya starts in base and you allow kakashi to use kamui properly then team sharingan win with mid difficulty.

Gates are also a bit pointless as kakashi can just go under them and sasuke and itachi can just go around, frog song also takes prep, and quite a bit of it, with full knowledge it isn't out of the question that sharingan team would be able to stop it. Summons could be easily dealt with by itachi, they are just huge targets for totsuka to seal, and they would be skewered by susannoo's arrows. Itachi's susanno alone makes hydra mode unwise to use, along with most of the large summons.

Even if kamui cannot hurt the sannins bodies a small summon like ma or pa could be sniped pretty easily off of jiraiya's shoulder.

Swamp of the underworld can likely be nullified by raikiri or chidori nagashi as lightning chakra trumps earth chakra.

especially if Jman is not in HM at the start team sharingan wins. due to superior elementals, a sword that will rip the soul out of anything cancelling out large summons, and susanno arrows that none of the sannin save HM jiraiya will be able to avoid easily.

And who is to say that Frog song would not also harm orochimaru and tsunade, as they are not frogs nor sages. Jiraiya would not use it unless he was by himself.


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## Smiley (May 19, 2010)

I said HM Jiraiya is enough to KEEP UP with all 3 of them. Theres a diffrence. HM Jiraiya has insane speed and strength along with durability. Neither of the sharingan members have shown to have these same feats as HM Jiraiya.

Itachi even stated himself, at best he would stalemate with Jiraiya, and thats him talking about BASE jiraiya not aware of HM mode. 

Kamui the rashamon gates ? are you taking the p*ss. Kakashi doesn't even have the chakra to Kamui a single body let alone 3 RASHAMON GATES which is the size of at least 50 bodies or more. Your Logic is wrong.

As for Kakashi and Itachi, both have shown low stamina and would eventually be eliminated in the long run. Nothing but susanoo can sustain Orochimaru, but i doubt that Itachi would just use susanoo at the start since it takes so much of his chakra.


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## Aoshi (May 19, 2010)

Shay said:


> Regards,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Really? I just read the manga page and I see 3 panels showing Orochimaru using the technique. In that time, Amaterasu can easily catch Orochimaru. Unless your saying that Orochimaru can use that technique faster than Itachi can use Amaterasu?


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## Sanbi (May 19, 2010)

Suu said:


> This is going to be on hell of a thread. Actually, I'm wondering if this is a little unfair towards Team Sannin...



This isn't unfair at all Suu.  Considering the conditions it might favor team Sannin actually. Jiraiya starting in HM helps considerably against these opponents, and him and Itachi are nearly equal when he is in HM. Oro vs Sasuke is also preety even due to Oral Rebirth for Susano and Amaterasu, and Oro without CIS wouldn't look at Sasuke's eyes with full knowledge. Tsunade vs Kakashi is even fairer since Kakashi can't Kamui their bodies.


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## Shay (May 19, 2010)

KnownTitanKid said:


> Really? I just read the manga page and I see 3 panels showing Orochimaru using the technique. In that time, Amaterasu can easily catch Orochimaru. Unless your saying that Orochimaru can use that technique faster than Itachi can use Amaterasu?



Regards,

If he used it before Itachi got in range for the purposes of blocking LOS, yeah.

Thank you for your time,
~Shay


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## Lightysnake (May 19, 2010)

He only summoned them after the Kyuubi had fired, y'know.


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## Sanbi (May 19, 2010)

Panels aren't an indication of time, but a representation of what is happening.


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## Aoshi (May 19, 2010)

Shay said:


> Regards,
> 
> If he used it before Itachi got in range for the purposes of blocking LOS, yeah.
> 
> ...



I'm pretty sure that Itachi can walk forward 5 steps and use Amaterasu before Orochimaru uses the seals. Also, since when is it IC for Orochimaru to use the Gates unless he is faced with a ridiculously powerful technique?


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## Shay (May 19, 2010)

KnownTitanKid said:


> I'm pretty sure that Itachi can walk forward 5 steps and use Amaterasu before Orochimaru uses the seals. Also, since when is it IC for Orochimaru to use the Gates unless he is faced with a ridiculously powerful technique?



Regards,

Amaterasu and Kamui aren't ridiculously powerful techniques? O_o

Thank you for your time,
~Shay


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## Sanbi (May 19, 2010)

When is it IC for Itachi to use Amaterasu right off the bat?


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## Smiley (May 19, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Itachi are nearly equal when he is in HM.



I Think you Meant Base Mode. Although this is debateable.


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## Aoshi (May 19, 2010)

daschysta said:


> Why gimp team sharingan, and buff team sannin.
> 
> Sannin win under this condition, due to frog song, but if jiraiya starts in base and you allow kakashi to use kamui properly then team sharingan win with mid difficulty.
> 
> ...



Lol, what the hell? You just said Team Sannin would win, and yet you all your evidence points to Team Sharingan winning.



Sanbi said:


> When is it IC for Itachi to use Amaterasu right off the bat?



Okay, fine. Sasuke can use Amaterasu.


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## daschysta (May 19, 2010)

KazujiN said:


> I said HM Jiraiya is enough to KEEP UP with all 3 of them. Theres a diffrence. HM Jiraiya has insane speed and strength along with durability. Neither of the sharingan members have shown to have these same feats as HM Jiraiya.
> 
> Itachi even stated himself, at best he would stalemate with Jiraiya, and thats him talking about BASE jiraiya not aware of HM mode.
> 
> ...



Kakashi has more than enough chakra to warp away a body.... he just isnt allowed to in this scenario, the gates though? no. but they wouldn't really do team sannin any good since blocking los actually favors the more crafty team sharingan by the time los is restored the sannin would be dealing with an exploding bunshin and a raikage bunshin, if any of them are hit with a raikage bunshin they become fodder for amaterasu or a susanoo arrow.


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## Sanbi (May 19, 2010)

IC Sasuke charges in against foes, as seen against the Raikage. Don't use Danzo as a indication either since he was bloodlusted at that time.


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## daschysta (May 19, 2010)

KnownTitanKid said:


> Lol, what the hell? You just said Team Sannin would win, and yet you all your evidence points to Team Sharingan winning.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, fine. Sasuke can use Amaterasu.



I said team sharingan wins if jiraiya doesn't use Frog song off the bat. Which is what most proponents of team sannin are suggesting. Although I did diverge a bit.


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## Aoshi (May 19, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> IC Sasuke charges in against foes, as seen against the Raikage. Don't use Danzo as a indication either since he was bloodlusted at that time.



Also, since when is it IC for Jiraiya to use Frog Song straight off the bat?


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## Sanbi (May 19, 2010)

When did I imply he was going to use it? I was informing people on how short Frog Song takes to set up, since people were mentioning how long it would take.

Even so, when he knows his ninjutsu and normal tactics won't work. Like against Susano.


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## Aoshi (May 19, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> When did I imply he was going to use it? I was informing people on how short Frog Song takes to set up, since people were mentioning how long it would take.
> 
> Even so, when he knows his ninjutsu and normal tactics won't work. Like against Susano.



Exactly. People are implying that right off the bat Orochimaru will use the Gates, while Jiraiya preps for Frog Song. Jiraiya will most likely engage in CQC, where he will have much trouble.


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## daschysta (May 19, 2010)

The real question is why would he use it when his team would also be affected. he would never do so, so unless he is the last one alive he isn't going to use it.


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## Sanbi (May 19, 2010)

Who would he be in trouble with, and he would start with ninjutsu like Pain. None of the opponents pose at threat to Jiraiya in CQC alone.


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## Aoshi (May 19, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Who would he be in trouble with, and he would start with ninjutsu like Pain. None of the opponents pose at threat to Jiraiya in CQC alone.



Susano? Amaterasu? Itachi can Tsukyomi Orochimaru off the bat. If Jiraiya runs to help him, Sasuke Amaterasu's Jiraiya.


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## Sanbi (May 19, 2010)

Didn't we already discuss how none of those things are IC for them to do off the bat. Oh, and I can make biased scenarios too you know  Jiraiya can paralyze and then blitz kill Itachi via Cho Oodama Rasengan, and if Sasuke tries to help Oro stabs him from below with Kusanagi.


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## Butt Hole lol (May 19, 2010)

wow! too hard to call but im going to give this to sharingan team. 

Healthy Itachi Vs HM Jiraiya with full knowledge Itachi should win this i dont see how Jiraiya can dodge amaterasu and he really has no way to get around Sasuno.

Sasuke vs Orochimaro, Sasuke would most likely spam sasuno arrows at Orochimaru making him waste chakra by regenerating. Edventually Orochimaru would run out of chakra so i see sasuke winning this by out lasting him. 

Kakashi vs Tsunade, Kakashi with full knowledge is a very formidable foe, i can see kakashi winning this fight with raiton/doton combos. He could Possibly kill her before she even activates creation rebirth by hitting a vital organ such as the brain or the heart with a raikiri.


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## IzanagiRikudo (May 19, 2010)

Team Sharingan with moderate to high difficulty. Kakashi can probably take on Tsunade for a long enough time that Itachi and Sasuke would help himi. Healthy Itachi can take Jiraiya out with Totsuka Blade, while Sasuke keeps Orochimaru at bay. Itachi then uses Amaterasu on Tsunade, killing her. Orochimaru is then destroyed by genjutsu or Susano'o. Frog Song needs time, and since their location is on an open field, Sasuke or Itachi won't give Ma and Pa the time they need. Manda/Katsuya/Bunta are all taken down by Susano'o from either Itachi or Sasuke. IMO HEALTHY Itachi can maaayyyyybbeee solo.


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## Cjones (May 19, 2010)

It's hard to call this.

Can't we assume that the Sannin have legendary, probable near flawless team work?


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## Diskyr (May 19, 2010)

Jiraiya won't go into Sage Mode early. Just look at the Pain fight. He only uses Sage Mode as a last resort when his regular attacks and base mode  pretty much wont do shit to Preta Path, Human Path, and Animal Path. He also didn't use Sage Mode immediately during his fight against Kisame and Itachi.

Even in Sage Mode, Jiraiya didn't use his obviously powerful Frog Song immediately against the 3 Paths of Pain. 

Since Orochimaru was caught in Genjutsu and Jiraiya is likely to get caught into Genjutsu as well without Shima and Fukasaku, then it'll be a win for Team Sharingan. 

Itachi will have to Tsukyomi Orochimaru or Jiraiya while Sasuke has t do the same as well. Kakashi cannot Genjutsu against Tsunade at this point, but he already has the chakra at his disposal to kamui a limb off Tsunade or even her head. 

Team Sharingan actually takes this pretty handily.


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## Lightysnake (May 19, 2010)

The Pain fight when he went into Sage Mode right away?

He also thought to kill Itachi and Kisame in the toad stomach. If not for Amaterasu, he would have.

And the usual Sharingan fan assumption the Sannin just stand still and let their opponents have free shots against them has never gotten old...


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## Mist Puppet (May 19, 2010)

Diskyr said:


> Jiraiya won't go into Sage Mode early.



Jiraiya starts off in Sage Mode


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## Turrin (May 19, 2010)

Team Sannin Wins; J-man is equal to Itachi(Its been debated a million times), but him starting in HM Gives him the Advantage and thus he should be able to defeat Itachi with High Difficulty.

I personally believe that Orochimaru would beat Sasuke; This is because Sasuke has nothing that can really kill Orochimaru. So i say Orochimaru beats Sasuke with High difficulty after outlasting him.

Like wise Tsunade would beat Kakashi given the restrictions placed on Kamui. Kakashi really hasn't shown much that could defeat Katsuya and Katsuya's Acid would be deadly. Also a single hit from Tsunade would be enough to defeat Kakashi and Tsunade can regenerate from basically all of Kakashi's attacks with Gensis or her Medical Ninjutsu. 

So yeah if it comes down to individual matches Team Sannin wins. If both teams fight more as a unit, then i still see Team Sannin winning as their team work is literally legendary while the others probably would also have Good Team work its nothing compared to the Sannin.

Not to mention the Sannin have a-lot of Broken Combos they could perform as a Team; The least of Which being a simply massive Army of Summons: Katsuya, Manda, Bunta, Ken, Hiro, 3-4 Minor Frogs, and 3-4 Minor Snakes

Such a large Summoned Army would give the other Team Problems alone as the only techniques they really have that can defeat Summons of that level are very chakra exhausting(Such as Susano'o, Amaterasu, Kamui, and Chidori Eiso)

So yeah i say Team Sannin with High Difficulty


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## Akimichi Farley (May 19, 2010)

> Itachi could destroy the Sannin on his own, adding Kakashi and Sasuke is overkill.





> IMO HEALTHY Itachi can maaayyyyybbeee solo.



Die hard Itachi fans seem to forget that Itachi himself expressed considerable doubt about being able to defeat Jiraiya even with Kisame backing him up, and felt that a stalemate was a very likely outcome. It is also worth mentioning that his sentiment concerned BASE Jiraiya as Hermit mode is something that he would not have known about. Itachi soloing Konoha's sanin is completely out of the question. The notion belongs only in fanfic. 

As for Sasuke, he plainly admitted to specifically ambushing Orochimaru when he was weak and bedridden, as otherwise he may not have been able to defeat him. As strong and skilled as he has become a healthy Oro is nothing to be scoffed at. 

Finally, Kakashi is a little out of his league in this match up. Except for Sasuke who is closest in level to him (but arguably still above due to MS haxx) the others completely outclass him. His Kamui attack is the only thing that makes him a factor in this one. 

The sannin have the edge here considering: 
A) They outclass 2 of their 3 opponents
B) IC their teammwork and knowledge of each other's abilities should be a cut above
C) Jiraiya starts in HM

Starting Jiraiya in base mode would make things more even and even then, I give the advantage to the sannin.


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## daschysta (May 19, 2010)

I don't see how kakashi is completely outclassed, the problem with these is you're trying to make it into 3 1v1 matches.

Itachi can easily one shot any boss summon with tosuka blade, there goes katsuya, which is the only way tsunade touches kakashi at all, from then on she is downed with a raiton kage bunshin and gets her head chopped off. Sasuke can fly, out of the reach of any of the sannin and rain hell down on them, and itachi can hold his own against any as well. Without large boss summons (nullified by totsuka) the sannin are outclassed.


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## Lightysnake (May 20, 2010)

He'd one shot Katsuyu? I express skepticism on that matter.Katsuyu seems indestructible. And using Susanoo right off is bad for Itachi's low stamina...also, There's no rubble around for someone like Tsunade to get the ol' switcheroo pulled on her.

And I doubt Sasuke's Hawk will stand up to the extending Kusanagi. And the Rashomon gates can guard against the Susanoo.


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## Akimichi Farley (May 20, 2010)

daschysta said:


> I don't see how kakashi is completely outclassed, the problem with these is you're trying to make it into 3 1v1 matches.
> 
> Itachi can easily one shot any boss summon with tosuka blade, there goes katsuya, which is the only way tsunade touches kakashi at all, from then on she is downed with a raiton kage bunshin and gets her head chopped off. Sasuke can fly, out of the reach of any of the sannin and rain hell down on them, and itachi can hold his own against any as well. Without large boss summons (nullified by totsuka) the sannin are outclassed.




I disagree. For the record Kakashi is one of my favorite characters but let's be realistic, CQC/taijutsu-wise he would get obliterated by either Tsunade or Jiraiya. Ninjutsu-wise he hasn't shown to have the large number of jutsu that can target multiple opponents or has the big AOE that either Jiraiya and Orochimaru possess. IMO Kamui is the only thing that makes him a factor in this. 

Secondly, both him and Itachi have low stamina, which is compounded by the fact that their best techniques are moreso stamina-burning that the average jutsu. Although Sasuke doesn't have the sub-par stamina issue this is also true for his best techniques. Factor in that they are dealing with stamina powerhouses in this match up, and things start to not look so good.

Throw in a small army of Boss and demi-boss summons and things swiftly go from bad to worse for team sharingan. The most likely outcome is that Itachi and Kakashi exhaust their chakra dealing with the best that the sannin would be forced to throw at them, leaving a lone Sasuke who obviously would not be able to solo the situation. 

Kakashi, Itachi and Sasuke have excellent skills for taking down individual opponents and if we had a thread about any of these guys going 1 on 1 with each other we could make a case both ways but in this situation I can't see these 3 successfully dealing with the flurry of the large AOE jutsu and boss summons that the sannin would throw at them.


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## daschysta (May 20, 2010)

Fair position, though one could argue that sans katsuyu, the boss summons could be rather easily fought on top of, which is most likely why they are never summoned against anyone that is not also megafauna sized, If any of the fighters were to get on top of manda or gamabunta there wouldn't really be anything that they could do to get them off without compromising the safety of the summoner, boss summons are also not infalliable, amaterasu to the face of any of them would put them out of commision except maybe for katsuyu.

I humbly disagree about kamui being the only factor here, kakashi is excellent at conserving his own chakra, and a master of stealth and ambush, raikage bunshin dispersing on any of the sannin would likely end the battle for whoever got hit, as they would be skewered with amaterasu, a susanoo arrow, or something of the sort. In a battle like this kakashi's skill with kage bunshin is also paramount. for example if tsunade goes smashy smashy, as she typically does kakashi will easily be able to switch with a kage bunshin and ambush another one of the sannin. Kakashi is able to land raikiri on akatsuki level combatants without them being able to sense him despite wielding a very flashy and loud technique, if tsunade is for a moment distracted with kage bunshin it could mean a raikiri through jiraiya's heart, which would kill him. If kamui were not banned he could also defeat a sannin with that. I believe tsunade to be formidable, but all we have to go on are her part one feats, where she was outclassed by a man who is kakashi's inferior in taijutsu, ninjutsu, and speed. I realize she was out of practice, but if you don't want to base her on manga feats then don't put her in battledome matches. Jiraiya also has not shown taijutsu that is above kakashi's ability to evade, especially when factoring in the sharingan, and it's predictive advantages.

Kakashi is a bit below jiraiya and orochimaru, but the difference is not so great as to make him a nonfactor. After all jiraiya was stymied by 3 of peins weaker bodies, having to resort to his trump to defeat them, whereas kakashi, with minimal backup, was nearly able to defeat the two, arguably, strongest bodies with a raikiri, and a few chains. Once again, slightly weaker, but with teammates like itachi and sasuke, just as dangerous as any of the sannin, factoring in his tactical genius along with itachi's.

Also don't underestimate orochimaru's succeptibility to itachi and sasuke's sharingan genjutsu, while i believe he was hindered by his need to possess sharingan, he can be put into a paralyzing genjutsu  by itachi quite easily, and in a battle with others this dangerous could prove disastrous.

And if the team sharingan really is overwhelmed by boss summons I don't see why itachi would not use susannoo and seal them all, his stamina should be better here as he is healthy. Totsuka requires only a touch, and boss summons are large targets, and susannoo can be summoned in the blink of an eye, as demonstrated by its blocking of the lightning fast kirin.


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## Lightysnake (May 20, 2010)

daschysta said:


> Fair position, though one could argue that sans katsuyu, the boss summons could be rather easily fought on top of, which is most likely why they are never summoned against anyone that is not also megafauna sized, If any of the fighters were to get on top of manda or gamabunta there wouldn't really be anything that they could do to get them off without compromising the safety of the summoner, boss summons are also not infalliable, amaterasu to the face of any of them would put them out of commision except maybe for katsuyu.


Jiraiya usually uses summons in his fight, Tsunade uses Kats in her one fight and Orochimaru uses snakes...a lot.

and Katsuyu'd just be acting as the tank. Itachi using an Amaterasu also costs a ton of chakra to boot



> I humbly disagree about kamui being the only factor here, kakashi is excellent at conserving his own chakra, and a master of stealth and ambush, raikage bunshin dispersing on any of the sannin would likely end the battle for whoever got hit, as they would be skewered with amaterasu, a susanoo arrow, or something of the sort. In a battle like this kakashi's skill with kage bunshin is also paramount. for example if tsunade goes smashy smashy, as she typically does kakashi will easily be able to switch with a kage bunshin and ambush another one of the sannin.


Between opponents as intelligent, more powerful and experienced as he is, really? an opponent like Jiraiya who knows him? Orochimaru and Jiraiya aren't stealth slouches



> Kakashi is able to land raikiri on akatsuki level combatants without them being able to sense him despite wielding a very flashy and loud technique, if tsunade is for a moment distracted with kage bunshin it could mean a raikiri through jiraiya's heart, which would kill him. If kamui were not banned he could also defeat a sannin with that. I believe tsunade to be formidable, but all we have to go on are her part one feats, where she was outclassed by a man who is kakashi's inferior in taijutsu, ninjutsu, and speed. I realize she was out of practice, but if you don't want to base her on manga feats then don't put her in battledome matches. Jiraiya also has not shown taijutsu that is above kakashi's ability to evade, especially when factoring in the sharingan, and it's predictive advantages.


Kakuzu isn't really on the same level here and Jiraiya is very, very durable and fast. Plus he has these two watching his back.
And he doesn't use Kamui that often as you suggest.
And Kakashi's inferior nin Taijutsu 'outclassed Tsunade?' The same Tsunade at a physical low with her hemophobia exploited?



> Kakashi is a bit below jiraiya and orochimaru, but the difference is not so great as to make him a nonfactor. After all jiraiya was stymied by 3 of peins weaker bodies, having to resort to his trump to defeat them, whereas kakashi, with minimal backup, was nearly able to defeat the two, arguably, strongest bodies with a raikiri, and a few chains. Once again, slightly weaker, but with teammates like itachi and sasuke, just as dangerous as any of the sannin, factoring in his tactical genius along with itachi's.


'Minimal' backup?' No, when your allies disable one of the bodies and trap the other for you, that's no minimal.
And as I recall, Kakashi's direct quote: "There's no way I can defeat the two of them on my own!"





> Also don't underestimate orochimaru's succeptibility to itachi and sasuke's sharingan genjutsu, while i believe he was hindered by his need to possess sharingan, he can be put into a paralyzing genjutsu  by itachi quite easily, and in a battle with others this dangerous could prove disastrous.



Which will be broken very easily by a partner. Just attack a little Katsuyu to the Sannin



> And if the team sharingan really is overwhelmed by boss summons I don't see why itachi would not use susannoo and seal them all, his stamina should be better here as he is healthy. Totsuka requires only a touch, and boss summons are large targets, and susannoo can be summoned in the blink of an eye, as demonstrated by its blocking of the lightning fast kirin.


Why would Jiraiya not then nail it with Yomi Numa? And the Totsuka doesn't just touch and seal you, it needs to activate that.

and Rashomon gates are a sturdy counter


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## daschysta (May 20, 2010)

Just as I can't assume she is as weak as she seemed in part one you can also not assume that she has advanced so greatly to have the ability to defeat a kage level combat specialist like kakashi in pt. 2. I realize she was gimped, but to assume she is above kakashi now is just as wrong as for me to assume she has barely improved, going as far as to say she outclasses kakashi simply lack evidence. Itachi should be able to use amaterasu a fair amount of times, he is healthy now, not dying from disease.

I wouldn't say the sannin other than tsunade are as intelligent as kakashi as a tactician in battle. Orochimaru is also a genius but tends to be foolhardy in battle, often overestimating his own durability... like the last few times he was defeated, that is part of his character. Jiraiya is durable, but surely you arent suggesting there that he would survive a kamui directly in the heart?

Kakashi, does not need to use kamui often, once is enough. If he were able to warp one sage, or a limb from jiraiya he would be unable to keep up in the battle, and it is well within kamuis feats to do so, in combat it is tsunade that is the weak link, and her fighting style leaves kakashi many openings to replace himself with a kage bunshin and ambush one of the other sannin, who will have their hands full. Nothing suggests that tsunade will be able to keep up with kakashi in direct combat.

and yes minimal backup, kakashi even stated that he was prepared to deal with asura, just that the akimichi saved him chakra, and there is really nothing wrong with kakashi's battle with pein, he did about as well as jiraiya, difference is jiraiya was fighting 1 more body, but each body was weaker, while kakashi was facing what are probably the strongest two.

And totsuka does just need to slice you, what activation are you speaking of? and what can the sannin do to stop this "activation" once totsuka has sliced them or a summon.

While it is possible for katsuyu to possibly release a genjutsu, itachi can likely just place the mini katsuyu in a genjutsu as well with his finger. Orochimaru remains extremely succeptible (he has a five in genjutsu in DB but aparently itachi is much much better.)

It's a good battle, I just disagree with the reasoning of kakashi being a weak link, when he clearly by feats outclasses tsunade and is the best assasin of the bunch. 

He should quite easily be able to give tsunade the slip (her whole fighting style is to smash up everything in sight) and land a fatal blow on jiraiya who is busy with itachi or sasuke before tsunade can stop him.

Raiton bunshin is also incredibly dangerous in a team battle I don't see jiraiya having a counter for it unless he is aware beforehand that it is a raiton bunshin.

that at least to me is what turns this in favor of team sharingan.


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## Lightysnake (May 20, 2010)

daschysta said:


> Just as I can't assume she is as weak as she seemed in part one you can also not assume that she has advanced so greatly to have the ability to defeat a kage level combat specialist like kakashi in pt. 2. I realize she was gimped, but to assume she is above kakashi now is just as wrong as for me to assume she has barely improved, going as far as to say she outclasses kakashi simply lack evidence. Itachi should be able to use amaterasu a fair amount of times, he is healthy now, not dying from disease.


Look at her stats. She's a genius, a Taijutsu queen and she's no longer at a physical low. She only lost because:
A. Kabuto popped a soldier pill after tiring her out
B. He exploited her hemophobia.
And Itachi's chakra pool is naturally low. He's limited



> I wouldn't say the sannin other than tsunade are as intelligent as kakashi as a tactician in battle. Orochimaru is also a genius but tends to be foolhardy in battle, often overestimating his own durability... like the last few times he was defeated, that is part of his character. Jiraiya is durable, but surely you arent suggesting there that he would survive a kamui directly in the heart?


Jiraiya's a clear strategist and Orochimaru underestimates enemies...but uhhh...Uchiha here? He ain't gonna. And a kamui or Raikiri to the heart, there's a big difference



> Kakashi, does not need to use kamui often, once is enough. If he were able to warp one sage, or a limb from jiraiya he would be unable to keep up in the battle, and it is well within kamuis feats to do so, in combat it is tsunade that is the weak link, and her fighting style leaves kakashi many openings to replace himself with a kage bunshin and ambush one of the other sannin, who will have their hands full. Nothing suggests that tsunade will be able to keep up with kakashi in direct combat.


Jiraiya can keep fighting without an arm. Hardly even sems to hinder him much. And Tsunade's got a higher taijutsu stat than Kakashi and at her worst, was going to kill Kabuto if not for her hemophobia. Someone stated to be as powerful as Kakashi in part 1



> and yes minimal backup, kakashi even stated that he was prepared to deal with asura, just that the akimichi saved him chakra, and there is really nothing wrong with kakashi's battle with pein, he did about as well as jiraiya, difference is jiraiya was fighting 1 more body, but each body was weaker, while kakashi was facing what are probably the strongest two.


Kakashi: There's no way I can beat the two of them on my own.
I let him speak for himself here, honestly. 
Kakashi needed the help, like it or not



> And totsuka does just need to slice you, what activation are you speaking of? and what can the sannin do to stop this "activation" once totsuka has sliced them or a summon.


It seals what it PIERCES, I believe. Just slicing? Otherwise it would've sucked up the Hydra long before it did



> While it is possible for katsuyu to possibly release a genjutsu, itachi can likely just place the mini katsuyu in a genjutsu as well with his finger. Orochimaru remains extremely succeptible (he has a five in genjutsu in DB but aparently itachi is much much better.)


Slugs don't have brains like that. 
And evidence Orochimaru had a five when he first faced Itachi? 



> It's a good battle, I just disagree with the reasoning of kakashi being a weak link, when he clearly by feats outclasses tsunade and is the best assasin of the bunch.


Take away Kamui and Tsunade is the better combatant given Kakashi has no real way to put her down permanently, she's better in CQC and needs one hit.



> He should quite easily be able to give tsunade the slip (her whole fighting style is to smash up everything in sight) and land a fatal blow on jiraiya who is busy with itachi or sasuke before tsunade can stop him.


Tsunade is also an intelligent, skilled fighter with a 5 in intelligence. She's not that dumb. And she won't leave her teammates without cover.
The thought of catching JIRAIYA off guard there is almost unthinkable



> Raiton bunshin is also incredibly dangerous in a team battle I don't see jiraiya having a counter for it unless he is aware beforehand that it is a raiton bunshin.
> 
> that at least to me is what turns this in favor of team sharingan.



Kakashi has to switch with one-dangerous on its own. 
Also, Jiraiya? He's better with bunshin feints.


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## daschysta (May 20, 2010)

I meant raikiri, but jiraiya would not survive either.

Stats are also not meant to be the backbone of a comparison, especially when not corraborated by feats.

I realize she was limited, but you can also not give her such a mammoth boost in ability that she has not yet shown. Kakashi vastly outclasses part one kabuto in combat ability. 

Itachi's chakra is below average, but healthy he should be able to use the MS more than in the sasuke fight at the very least, and imo that will be enough.

Orochimaru just did underestimate an uchiha, and lost his life for it, this is after all of his past experience with itachi, it is just his character.

Without an arm hardly hindering him much? Youre joking right?

After he lost his arm he promptly retreated to his barrier, and was wtfowned as soon as he left it. 

Kakashi has his taijutsu augmented by the sharingan, and he is faster, sharingan will easily predict her linear attacks, especially since they are enhanced with chakra, (see pt. 1 sasuke vs. naruto valley of the end after sasuke unlocks tomoe for reference)

Kabuto also had oppurtunities to kill tsunade before the hemophobia was exploited, and it doesn't change the fact that he is self admittedly bad at taijutsu, he had no business being in tsunades league, and yet he was.

He was stated to be on kakashis level in pt. one, but not in combat neccesarily, kabuto was a comparable genius to kakashi, but always was the one running away from conflicts with him, he wants no piece of kakashi in combat. He is a medic on kakashi's level just as tsunade is a medic on jiraiya and oro's level.

Kakashi didn't believe he could kill the two bodies on his own, but he did state he had a counter for asura when the akimichi's showed up. and what of it? Jiraiya stated he would surely die against 3 weaker bodies had he not resorted to frog song, kakashi didn't use his trump offensively in his fight.

Come on man, your reaching, it obviously seals what it pierces/slices and there is no real difference in application, if you are penetrated by totsuka you are put into the drunken genjutsu for eternity.

Why do you think it would be difficult to give tsunade the slip? He has fooled itachi, two pein realms, and many other brilliant fighters with it. Tsunade in fact is asking for it, as she smashes up the surroundings giving kakashi ample time. Jiraiya can very well be caught off guard, I don't know why you don't think he can be, he is going to have his hands full with itachi or sasuke, and asura realm caught him off guard just fine, so has orochimaru, Kakashi is a greater assasin than those.

And how do you figure jiraiya is superior at bunshin? raiton kage bunshin is more advanced than kage bunshin, and they are at least as good as eachother in application. It is kakashi's specialty after all.


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## Kisame (May 20, 2010)

just wondering.....wouldn't Tsunade and Orochimaru be affected by the frog song?


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## Mr.Blonde (May 20, 2010)

I usually don't weigh in on matches that involve more than two shinobi of similar level because it's very hard to give an accurate assessment,but I'll make an exception.

I'm giving it to the Sannin because of one thing:teamwork.
Obviously both sides have access to very powerful jutsu and have to potential to kill eachother,and while Kakashi and Sasuke both have shown individual 'battle smarts' on multiple occasions(Itachi not so much) ,the Sannin's teamwork and common battle exploits made them the stuff of legends,quite possibly the most famous names in the ninja world.

Its really inconceivable that,with their enormous battle experience,familiarity with eachother's jutsu and legendary teamwork,they wouldn't be able to come up with a strategy that would give them the victory.


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## Butt Hole lol (May 20, 2010)

Team sannin would have about average team work now, they probably havnt fought alongside each other for over 20 years. There teamwork isnt going to be "flawless" like some people are saying.


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## daschysta (May 20, 2010)

Yeah the sannin's arsenal has pretty vastly changed, jiraiya didn't have HM back then and Orochimaru obviously didn't use all of his forbidden jutsu back then, these are their primary tactics now, so their teamwork is a bit outdated, they would no longer have the amazing chemistry after 20 years of being separated.


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## Smiley (May 20, 2010)

daschysta said:


> Yeah the sannin's arsenal has pretty vastly changed, jiraiya didn't have HM back then and Orochimaru obviously didn't use all of his forbidden jutsu back then, these are their primary tactics now, so their teamwork is a bit outdated, they would no longer have the amazing chemistry after 20 years of being separated.



That doesn't stop them using their hax ninjutsu does it ?


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## daschysta (May 20, 2010)

It doesn't both sides have super haxxed jutsu, I was just responding to the teamwork point that was made.


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## Smiley (May 20, 2010)

daschysta said:


> It doesn't both sides have super haxxed jutsu, I was just responding to the teamwork point that was made.



Team work does not affect the result of the battle. Thats like saying the worlds best footplayer has a crap team work abilities, that doesn't stop him from pwning another team.


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## Jinnobi (May 20, 2010)

The only reason that Itachi played along with Kisame's doubts about beating Jiraiya is because Itachi and Jiraiya were on the same side. Throughout the next two chapters, Itachi has numerous chances to easily 1) steal Naruto and 2) kill Jiraiya, but he chooses not to. In fact, Kisame later expresses shock at not staying to fight Jiraiya.

In addition, the character and power of Kisame were not fully realized by Kishi at the time of writing that chapter - and possibly Itachi and Jiraiya as well. Kisame was meant to be a minor side character, until fans showed overwhelming approval and fondness for Kisame. He then became a more relevant character to the plot.

The long and short of it: Itachi did not actually think that Jiraiya could take both himself and Kisame. In fact, I feel as though Itachi wasn't scared of Jiraiya at all. They did, in fact, march in to the building he was in and "attempt" to steal Naruto. He didn't want to fight Jiraiya because he was a pacifist. He used Kisame's fear of the Sannin reputation to further his agenda of not fighting.


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## machiavelli2009 (May 20, 2010)

team sharingan win
regardless of who is put against who
only oro can survive ama
none of them can survive tskuyomi 
susanoo arrows arent easy to avoid
sasuke kills jiraiya with or without knowledge he hasnt shown the ability to dodge ama
kamui will be an instant kill on tsuande an jiriaya
this is way unfair on the sannin
and btw kakashi>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>tsuande


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## daschysta (May 20, 2010)

KazujiN said:


> Team work does not affect the result of the battle. Thats like saying the worlds best footplayer has a crap team work abilities, that doesn't stop him from pwning another team.



Except the sannin aren't appreciably stronger on an individual basis


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 20, 2010)

daschysta said:


> Except the sannin aren't appreciably stronger on an individual basis



Oh, of course not. They were simply awared the title of "Three Legendary Ninja" on appearances alone, yes? They're not appreciably stronger than, say "Fuck You" fodder nin.

Saying they're not appreaciably strong individually is fool-hardy. There's a reason their legendary, and their names feared.


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## daschysta (May 20, 2010)

Who is talking about fodder?

Itachi, Sasuke, and kakashi have renown individual abilities as well. 

Oro has been itachi's bitch the whole manga

sasuke is easily kage level and so is kakashi

the statement was clearly comparing their invidual abilities to their opponents, and in this case they certainly aren't overwhelmingly more powerful as individuals.

I don't get what you are trying to say legendary


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 20, 2010)

You said the Sannin are not note-worthy in skills on an individual basis. That would contradict the entire manga, as they're genius shinobi who the entire world looks to.

What I'm trying to say, my misinformed friend, is that the Sannin were soloing legions shinobi and putting people in their place since before either Itachi and Sasuke were born. Their names are renown around the world, and they're the star shinobi of their generation, and their names are still feared to this day. The reason that is so is because they have abilities and the feats to back it up. The Sannin are, even on an individual level, incredibly talented and are at the foremost of any list of gifted shinobi. And that's without any haxx kekkei genkai.


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## daschysta (May 20, 2010)

You're still not saying anything legend lol.

Someone pointed out the sannin's teamwork, it was countered by pointing out the lapse in time and the changing fighting styles, then someone said that you don't need teamwork if you are much stronger individually. I then said that the sannin are not _much stronger individually.

And they arent. You think that they are? much stronger on an individual basis?

Your post said nothing dude, are you saying they are... older? of course they are yet that experience meant nothing when kid itachi owned orochimaru so hard he squashed any ambition oro had in regards to his sharingan, and cocky oro even admitted flatout inferiority. Oro was always, btw, the genius of the group most renowned for individual ability. Sasuke now has EMS and is on a similar level to itachi.

Kakashi is also very dangerous, and is the better combat shinobi compared to tsunade going on all the evidence that we have. Hell tsunade has even stated that the medic of a team is to avoid combat at all costs. Not to say she is helpless, but nothing points to her being on kakashi's level in combat, she is a great genius, just in a different way, and just as valuable, only not in straight up combat.

These 3 shinobi are at least equal to the sannin individually at this point, so while I appreciate your poetic tribute to the sannin (they are cool I know) it is wrong to assume they outclass these 3 on an individual level at least by any significant amount.

These 3 shinobi have huge reputations as well, and are much younger to boot. Kakashi has been shown to be just as recognizable as the sannin by other countries and shinobi, sasuke is still young and is known as a sannin killer, famous for killing orochimaru, Itachi is known worldwide for soloing the most powerful clan in konoha. reputation is a fickle thing, after all the name sannin was given to them in defeat.

combatwise it probably goes

Itachi>=Jiraiya=sasuke=orochimaru>=kakashi>tsunade

noting that orochimaru is very suceptable to the sharingan for whatever reason further disadvantaging him._


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## Atlantic Storm (May 20, 2010)

> Your post said nothing dude, are you saying they are... older? of course they are yet that experience meant nothing when kid itachi owned orochimaru so hard he squashed any ambition oro had in regards to his sharingan, and cocky oro even admitted flatout inferiority. Oro was always, btw, the genius of the group most renowned for individual ability. Sasuke now has EMS and is on a similar level to itachi.



LT/LB is a girl.

And kid Itachi may or may not be stronger than Orochimaru back then. Orochimaru was much weaker back then(no body experimentation) and was trying to take over his body, rather than kill Itachi. Current Orochimaru is most likely stronger than Itachi, Itachi has barely anything that can kill Orochimaru apart from Susano-o.



> These 3 shinobi have huge reputations as well, and are much younger to boot.



Reputation doesn't really equate to power. Some people, like Danzo are immensely powerful but due to wanting to stay in the shadows he remained in R00T(a secret organization) and therefore has a relatively poor reputation.



> Kakashi has been shown to be just as recognizable as the sannin by other countries and shinobi, sasuke is still young and is known as a sannin killer, famous for killing orochimaru,



He didn't actually "kill" Orochimaru. That's a false rumour.



> Itachi is known worldwide for soloing the most powerful clan in konoha. reputation is a fickle thing, after all the name sannin was given to them in defeat.



Maybe my English is a little rusty but I'm pretty sure that solo means you killed them yourself. Whereas in reality, Itachi had the help of Madara.


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## daschysta (May 20, 2010)

I know all that atlantic, look at the post I was responding to. LB was using reputation as a way of putting the individuals in the sannin squarely above the 3 opponents here, I just was using the reputation of these 3 to prove that it doesn't mean too much in battle. Hence the sannin gaining their reputation in a losing effort.

I am aware itachi did not solo the clan, it is just his reputation, I know it, you know it, the manga does not.

Same thing with sasuke, although kakashi is flat out likely just as famous as the sannin and is really the closest thing to a ninja celebrity we have seen in the manga.

To be able to overpower orochimaru in a dimension that he himself created once again points to orochimaru's strange vulnerability to the genjutsu side of the sharingan.

Why would you believe oro had not experimented on himself during hte itachi encounter, orochimaru was in akatsuki at the time and obviously had his body ritual, I don't get what your trying to say here? Not to mention that susanoo fodderized him once again just recently. Orochimaru admits itachi is much more powerful than him, just 3 years ago, and in a healthy body, and it is a big deal since oro is one cocky guy, orochimaru was more powerful in part one than in part two due to his healthy body not rejecting him. I don't think itachi is WAY above him against most shinobi, but for some reason he has orochimaru's number.


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 20, 2010)

daschysta said:


> You're still not saying anything legend lol.



Perhaps you're not comprehending.


> Someone pointed out the sannin's teamwork, it was countered by pointing out the lapse in time and the changing fighting styles, then someone said that you don't need teamwork if you are much stronger individually. I then said that the sannin are not _much stronger individually.
> _


_

She and Jiraiya fought against Orochimaru. I'm pretty sure they know how to fight in tandem.




			And they arent. You think that they are? much stronger on an individual basis?
		
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Individually, the Sannin are beasts. Collectively, they rapestomp all competition.




			Your post said nothing dude, are you saying they are... older? of course they are yet that experience meant nothing when kid itachi owned orochimaru so hard he squashed any ambition oro had in regards to his sharingan, and cocky oro even admitted flatout inferiority. Oro was always, btw, the genius of the group most renowned for individual ability. Sasuke now has EMS and is on a similar level to itachi.
		
Click to expand...


Again, perhaps you failed to comprehend.

Itachi cut off Orochimaru's hand. At that age, impressive. At this time, moot. Orochimaru's arm would grow back due to modifications since then.

Kabuto struggled against Tsunade, despite having every conceivable advantage. Note how Orochimaru was giving Jiraiya trouble, both of them handicapped. After all that, Tsunade gave him a single hit, and he fled. She's not to be taken lightly as well.

Orochimaru was noted as the Genius of the Sannin because of his thirst for knowledge. Tsunade and Jiraiya were considered geniuses, along with him. He simply stood out because of his inquisitive/power hungry ambition.

Sasuke has EMS, but he hasn't shown any abilities with it. Obvios speculation is obvious.






			Kakashi is also very dangerous, and is the better combat shinobi compared to tsunade going on all the evidence that we have.* Hell tsunade has even stated that the medic of a team is to avoid combat at all costs.* Not to say she is helpless, but nothing points to her being on kakashi's level in combat, she is a great genius, just in a different way, and just as valuable, only not in straight up combat.
		
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Common misconception. She was putting that in the context of having a group with you and you were simply there to heal. In that case, you obviously have to be evasive so you won't be killed, resulting in no medic to heal the team. This is an entirely different situation, as she's here to actively fight, and has incredible stamina/strength, as shown in her fight with Kabuto. She's shown the best strength feats so far, and is also a chakra monster, as shown with her healing the entire village twice over -- one person is stated to take up alot of chakra. 

Tsunade took a horrific beating from Kabuto, and Orochimaru, and bounced back for the win -- with a single shot. Kakashi and company can do what they like, Tsunade will tank most of it and all she needs is one hit. GG Sharinganz.

Jiraiya's HM should prove incredibly difficult for Team Sharingan.

Orochimaru's a beast that has countless summons and jutsu up his sleeve.

Not to mention, I'd love to see them deal with Katsuyu, Gamabunta, and Manda, as well as all those other countless summons. Frog Song alone should solo.




			These 3 shinobi are at least equal to the sannin individually at this point, so while I appreciate your poetic tribute to the sannin (they are cool I know) it is wrong to assume they outclass these 3 on an individual level at least by any significant amount.
		
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When they're hailed the world over, then we'll talk.

Nothing Kakashi does will beat Tsunade. Everything is tanked by Souzou Saisei, and that's assuming he tags her with a hit. It's likely, as he's faster than her, but she's skilled in evasion. Not to mention he'd have to attack her in close quarters, since no long range attacks will work -- longer range gives her more time to evade them. And once he's in close quarters with her, it's all over.

Kamui's his only hope, but OP banned him from using it on the Sannin's bodies. So he's fucked.

Jiraiya handles Itachi. Orochimaru can handle Sasuke. Tsunade can handle Kakashi.

Can team Sharingan handle the Sannin + their summons? I highly doubt it.




			These 3 shinobi have huge reputations as well, and are much younger to boot. Kakashi has been shown to be just as recognizable as the sannin by other countries and shinobi, sasuke is still young and is known as a sannin killer, famous for killing orochimaru, Itachi is known worldwide for soloing the most powerful clan in konoha. reputation is a fickle thing, after all the name sannin was given to them in defeat.
		
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The Sannin are by far more recognized than Kakashi. Are you kidding me?

Sasuke defeated Orochimaru; he didn't kill him. 

Itachi had help.

The Sannin were strong enough to survive an onslaught against Hanzou, who slayed the rest of the Konoha army with the Sannin. If they can survive against him, they did so of their own skills, and he was impressed enough to dub them the Densetsu no Sannin.




			combatwise it probably goes

Itachi>=Jiraiya=sasuke=orochimaru>=kakashi>tsunade

noting that orochimaru is very suceptable to the sharingan for whatever reason further disadvantaging him.
		
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More like HM Jiraiya + Summons > Itachi.
Orochimaru + Summons > Sasuke.
Tsunade + Summons > Kakashi.

_


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## Atlantic Storm (May 20, 2010)

Actually, I'd argue that Sasuke and Kakashi are above Orochimaru and Tsunade respectively. But Hermit Mode Jiraiya is probably above Itachi in terms of strength and such.


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 20, 2010)

And I'd argue against you. Kakashi has nothing, aside from Kamui and possibly Raikagebunshin, that would defeat Tsunade. Everything else she tanks, and he'll need to be close to hit her.

I'd like to see Sasuke go through Rashoumon gates and meet hell on the other side.


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (May 20, 2010)

Team Sharingan all the way

I think the mastery of MS will be too much for Team Sannin 
That and the fact that Team Sharingan counters pretty much everything Team Sannin brings to the table

Summons get destroyed by Susanoo arrows and Amaterusu
Tsunade's Rebirth is null in void against Amaterusu, Susanoo, n Kamui
Oro cant use Edo Tensei which would not have made a difference because Itachi has the Totsuka Sword
Jiriaya has the best chance of doin damage in HM but 3 MS will be 2 much 2 handle

I think they will but up a good fight but eventually get overwhelmed by MS jutsu


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## cry77 (May 20, 2010)

Party Hat said:


> wow! too hard to call but im going to give this to sharingan team.
> 
> Healthy Itachi Vs HM Jiraiya with full knowledge Itachi should win this i dont see how Jiraiya can dodge amaterasu and he really has no way to get around Sasuno.
> 
> ...




as long as Sasuke has activated susanoo he aint outlasting no one...

he will run out cold long before oro...oro wins.


i also think jiraiya takes itachi



the last one i kinda agree with though


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## daschysta (May 20, 2010)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Perhaps you're not comprehending.
> 
> 
> She and Jiraiya fought against Orochimaru. I'm pretty sure they know how to fight in tandem.
> ...



you seem less than objective.

first of all if oro began to regrow his hand he would be fried by amaterasu, once he is in the genjutsu ,which he is succeptible to he is done.

Jiraiya is tough, but not overwhelming for sasuke or itachi, and would be taken down in this scenario by a suprise attack from kakashi, who would replace himself with a kage bunshin amidst the rubble tsunade creates with her smashy smashy, upon escaping from tsunade he would be free to put his assasination skills to good use, a raikiri through the heart would kill jiraiya. Another option would be to kamui ma or pa, making jiraiya unable to use HM and robbing him of the bulk of his power.

The three of them proceed to destroy tsunade.

summons are being overrated here, amaterasu would kill any of them, or at least force them to leave, and they are rather large targets, itachi's susanno can also seal any of them that are pierced with totsuka. If amaterasu can defeat a bijuu it can defeat gama, manda, or katsu

unless tsunade is actively on top of katsuyu the whole time kakashi will end her rather easily, he is much faster and a raiton kage bunshin will paralyze her long enough to be beheaded, removing her seal from her body. With knowledge kakashi can also just avoid tsunade after she releases her seal, and then kill her once she is exhausted. Kamui is not kakashi's only hope, RKB and raikiri chop works quite nicely. With kamui kakashi would stomp all over tsunade relieving her of her head rather quickly.

Tsunade is the weak link here, her lack of speed will allow her to be given the slip by itachi or kakashi allowing a fatal blow to jiraiya, and from there it is just dominoes.

Kirin could also kill one or more of the sannin, and kakashi should be able to guide kirin as well via copy and his lightning affinity, this copied jutsu is also great for kakashi as it just directs lightning from the sky rather than wasting his own chakra.

The sannins precious teamwork is moot here too as they have not fought together for decades, orochimaru did not use his forbidden kenjutsu back then (which has become his primary weapon) and jiraiya had no HM. They are starting from scratch in this battle. 

Also orochimaru was not just known as the genius for his inquisitiveness, he was flat out noted for his individual ability above the others, jiraiya was not known as a genius early on, in fact he was seen as the loser and the dropout, naruto's character parallels his.


Ps kakashi is known the world over, not one single shinobi has not recognized him in the manga, from fodder to kages to akatsuki, nothing indicates he is less famous than the sannin.

hell even "god" is honored to meet him


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 20, 2010)

daschysta said:


> you seem less than objective.



I'm sure.


> first of all if oro began to regrow his hand he would be fried by amaterasu, once he is in the genjutsu ,which he is succeptible to he is done.



So first it's "He's going to get his hand cut off", then when I point out the regeneration, it's suddenly "He's not getting his arm cut off, he's gettin Amaterasu'd!" ?

Orochimaru has full knowledge. He's not going to fall for Sharingan genjutsu easily. And even if he does, by some miracle, he has two teammates to break him out of it.


> Jiraiya is tough, but not overwhelming for sasuke or itachi, and would be taken down in this scenario by a suprise attack from kakashi, who would replace himself with a kage bunshin amidst the rubble tsunade creates with her smashy smashy, upon escaping from tsunade he would be free to put his assasination skills to good use, a raikiri through the heart would kill jiraiya. Another option would be to kamui ma or pa, making jiraiya unable to use HM and robbing him of the bulk of his power.



Sasuke will defeat Jiraiya?



So you're saying Tsunade's going to punch the ground, Kakashi's going to make a Kage Bunshin to hide under said ruined ground, and Raikiri her?

Not only does that not work because of Souzou Saisei tanking that shit, but you can't hide in the ground if it's destroyed. 

Shima and Fukasaku are fused to Jiraiya; they're part of his body, and as such, cannot be warped due to not having Kamui used on any Sannin.



> The three of them proceed to destroy tsunade.



I'm honoured you leave her for last. 



> summons are being overrated here, amaterasu would kill any of them, or at least force them to leave, and they are rather large targets, itachi's susanno can also seal any of them that are pierced with totsuka. If amaterasu can defeat a bijuu it can defeat gama, manda, or katsu



Manda already showed a jutsu to shed his skin against Jiraiya's katon. I don't see why Amaterasu should be any different.

Katsuyu can split apart to avoid it, and if not, just shed the parts that were hit. 

Gamabunta could try some Suiton Water Bullets.  It'd be an interesting interaction.

Jiraiya also has the ability to seal up Amaterasu fire, as shown in the toad's stomach.


> unless tsunade is actively on top of katsuyu the whole time kakashi will end her rather easily, he is much faster and a raiton kage bunshin will paralyze her long enough to be beheaded, removing her seal from her body. With knowledge kakashi can also just avoid tsunade after she releases her seal, and then kill her once she is exhausted. Kamui is not kakashi's only hope, RKB and raikiri chop works quite nicely. With kamui kakashi would stomp all over tsunade relieving her of her head rather quickly.



Tsunade has full knowledge. _Full knowledge._ Do you know what she did with little knowledge she received from Chouji about Pain's powers? She formulated a plan that Pain acknowledged, questioning if she had figured out his powers due to her chakra-in-the-feet trick, but said it was useless, as "overwhelming power" would destroy all. He was referring to Chou Shinra Tensei, thinking she couldn't protect the entire village.

He was wrong. She tanked that too.

With full knowledge, Tsunade is not going to fall for a Raikagebunshin. She's going to pressure Kakashi like she did Kabuto, keeping him on his toes. Let him hit her as much as he wants; it's futile with Souzou Saisei active. If she must, she can let him hit her, grab him, then one-shot him.

End game. Kamui's his only chance, but, he doesn't have it. Too bad. 



> Tsunade is the weak link here, her lack of speed will allow her to be given the slip by itachi or kakashi allowing a fatal blow to jiraiya, and from there it is just dominoes.





> Kirin could also kill one or more of the sannin, and kakashi should be able to guide kirin as well via copy and his lightning affinity, this copied jutsu is also great for kakashi as it just directs lightning from the sky rather than wasting his own chakra.



It takes time to set up. Time he's not going to get when dealing with one or (if some of his teammates are defeated/killed) more of the Sannin. 

Assumption. Kakashi hasn't shown the ability to use Kirin; he can't copy it. Not to mention it's still a jutsu: he has to use his own chakra, regardless. How do you think he controls the lightning?



> The sannins precious teamwork is moot here too as they have not fought together for decades, orochimaru did not use his forbidden kenjutsu back then (which has become his primary weapon) and jiraiya had no HM. They are starting from scratch in this battle.



Again, the Sannin fight showed that Tsunade and Jiraiya were still able to fight against Orochimaru in tandem, even with their summons. Your poitn is moot.


> Also orochimaru was not just known as the genius for his inquisitiveness, he was flat out noted for his individual ability above the others, jiraiya was not known as a genius early on, in fact he was seen as the loser and the dropout, naruto's character parallels his.



The Sannin were all geniuses, though Orochimaru was the most hyped. The whole bell test emphasizes teamwork, and seeing as Tsunade and Orochimaru got one, it indicates that they worked together to do so. Individual ability for Orochimaru at that time was limited to him reading his books on his own, not practicing his skills. They did that as a team.



> Ps kakashi is known the world over, not one single shinobi has not recognized him in the manga, from fodder to kages to akatsuki, nothing indicates he is less famous than the sannin.



Aside from the fact that the Sannin are noted as the "_Legendary_ Sannin", or the "Three Great Shinobi of (Konoha) Legend." Not "Legendary Kakashi", or "Kakashi of Konoha." Hell, Kakashi shit his pants at the sight of one of the Sannin. He never fought him before, but a simple aura about him had Kakashi questioning his sanity when he wanted to fight him. 

Why?

Because Kakashi is not at the Sannin level.





> hell even "god" is honored to meet him



Self-proclaimed "God" that got solo'd by a book. Very impressive.


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## Kuya (May 20, 2010)

Kakashi is their weakness.

Sannin win with mid difficulty. 

- Any of 3 can hang with Itachi or at least make it 1v1 fight and keep him away from the others. 
- Same as above except I'd have their experience give them the edge. Sasuke can obviously handle his own against either 3, but neither side would stomp.
- They are all above Kakashi. He can probably survive for a while but he'll be on the defensive the entire time and will eventually get caught.


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## Sadgoob (May 20, 2010)

No, I'm pretty sure the Sharingan team would stomp. Two members of that team are invincible for about ten minutes that are within nearly unavoidable wargods and Kakashi can take out any Sannin with Kamui.


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## Sanbi (May 20, 2010)

Illusory, I would appreciate it if you actually read the conditions in the OP before posting next time. 

Kakashi can't Kamui a Sannin.

The State of Mind is IC. IC the Uchiha Bros wouldn't use Susano that much, unless dangered greatly, and with full knowledge, the Sannin wouldn't even bother directly confronting those two while in Susano.


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## Sadgoob (May 20, 2010)

Oh, so you know how Itachi acts when bloodlusted or how Sasuke would act against them with full knowledge? Wait, Sasuke opened with Susano'o in his last battle. If Kakashi used Kamui on Shima or Fukasaku then Jiraiya would be neutered although no creative thinking is necessary on my part. The Sannin are completely outmatched here.


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## Sanbi (May 20, 2010)

Selim said:


> Oh, so you know how Itachi acts when bloodlusted


? When did I say that. I know what he acts like IC, and that is to not use Susano like you suggested. Itachi actually likes to fight and not spam MS and that could be fatal against the Sannin.

Again, with full knowledge the Sannin wouldn't even consider facing Susano head on.



> or how Sasuke would act against them with full knowledge?


And how exactly do you propose he acts, IC being considered?



> If Kakashi used Kamui of Shima or Fukasaku Jiraiy would be neutered although no creative thinking is necessary.


Except for:

A) Kakashi doesn't even Kamui someones body when bloodlusted, let alone IC.
B) They are *fused* with his body, and considered apart of it.




> The Sannin are completely outmatched here.


If you create scenarios, that heavily favor the Sharingan and are unrealistic considering the conditions in the OP, then yes they are "_outmatched_".


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## Jinnobi (May 20, 2010)

> *The State of Mind is IC.*_ IC the Uchiha Bros wouldn't use Susano that much_, unless dangered greatly, and with full knowledge, the* Sannin wouldn't even bother directly confronting those two while in Susano.*





> A) _Kakashi doesn't even Kamui someones (Jinnobi: Deidara anyone?) body when bloodlusted, let alone IC._





> *Itachi actually likes to fight* and _not spam MS_ and that could be fatal against the Sannin.





> _Sasuke will [not] defeat Jiraiya._




*Bold *is ironic
_Italicized_ is pure assumption
Underlined is simply incorrect, proven by reading the manga


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## Sadgoob (May 20, 2010)

Well, you can't demand that Itachi act in-character if in-character he purposefully died to his opponent or refuses to kill those loyal to Konoha. If that's not abusing the in-character rule then nothing is. We saw Itachi bloodlusted against Orochimaru, and he didn't hold back. We saw Kakashi ready to open with Kamui against Madara. If he's up against the Sannin, and has full knowledge of their capabilities, do you think he's going to hold back?

This is what I mean, Sanbi. I don't enter threads like these to watch people squirm around technicalities to give one side a chance. So just let me interact lightly while watching Sannin advocates write stories about how the Sannin will kite Susano'o until the Uchiha die lol.


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## Lightysnake (May 20, 2010)

Itachi ordered Kurenai and Asuma dead. He's firmly willing to kill with his base abilities.


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## Sadgoob (May 20, 2010)

Lightysnake, Madara's statement sheds light on that entire ordeal and Itachi's duplicity. Ignoring that, Itachi nonetheless asked politely for them to leave and that he did not wish to kill them. Furthermore, opposing Asuma and Kurenai isn't exactly the same thing as going up against the Sannin when fully aware of their vast array of abilities.


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## Lightysnake (May 20, 2010)

He knew damn well they were not going to let him just leave. The second Kakashi mentioned Akatsuki, what did Itachi do? Order Kisame to kill them. His surprise at Gai's arrival indicates despite making a half hearted effort to lay off, he was fully willing for them to die.


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## Akimichi Farley (May 20, 2010)

These will help to better illustrate my point,

















concerning the sannin's wide array of abilities/jutsu with quite large AOE zones. This list of links is in addition but a fraction of that arsenal, leaving out Orochimaru's hydra, Jiraiya's acid lake summoning, and a veritable slew of other boss/demi-boss animal summons many of which are capable of quickly transforming the face of a battlefield violently.

Nevertheless, that's just for starters. Aside from miniature terraforming techniques we still have to account for things like Oro's uncanny durability, Jiraiya's HM, and the rest of their so far unmentioned jutsus. 

In addition, Katsuyu could prove to be very useful against Genjutsu, even of the MS level, by something so simple as to have three of her palm sized versions hole up in the sannin's pockets (where they couldn't be afected themselves). 

Also worthy of note is the fact that all three of the sannin are capable of completely stopping an opponent's chakra flow/output, effectively making jutsu impossible for the opponent to perform. Jiraiya and Oro can do this by sealing, and Tsunade uses chakra manipulation.

In conclusion, the sannin are clearly the favorites in this matchup. Like others have said Kakashi is thoroughly outclassed here (even compared to his teammates) and should mostly be a non-factor, kamui being his sole contribution of any significance. Furthermore both him and Itachi have sub-par stamina and all 3 sharingan user's best techniques are very stamina burning, moreso than the average jutsu. 

The two likeliest outcomes in my mind is that team sharingan will be either outlasted and taken down through attrition, or simply overwhelmed by the huge attacks thrown at them.


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## Sadgoob (May 20, 2010)

Even so, that's still a long way off from a bloodlusted Itachi, no? Especially when against the Sannin?


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## Jinnobi (May 20, 2010)

> Kamui being his sole contribution of any significance



Kamui is enough to instantly kill a Sannin, so that's enough.

Besides, he offers intelligence, clones and a vast array of abilities for support.

Sasuke has Amaretsu and long range Susano'o + a shit ton of stamina and chakra.

Itachi WTF raped Orochimaru in white snake form while mostly dead and blind. I think that says enough about his level of power. But wait! Clones, Amaretsu, and Tsukiyomi make him the most lethal contender.


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## Sanbi (May 20, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> *The State of Mind is IC.* _IC the Uchiha Bros wouldn't use Susano that much,_ unless dangered greatly, and with full knowledge, *the Sannin wouldn't even bother directly confronting those two while in Susano.*
> 
> A) Kakashi doesn't even Kamui someones body when bloodlusted, let alone IC.
> 
> ...



How is the SoM being IC ironic? I already admitted that the Sannin wouldn't use there whole arsenal due to it being IC, so I don't get how it is ironic.

The Uchiha Bros don't use it IC, due to the stress on their bodies. They simply wouldn't do it unless they are greatly dangered or when bloodlusted.

Itachi only used it when Kirin was about to hit him. IC Sasuke only used it when he was about to get Raiga Bomb'd or spat on with extremely dangerous Lava. Don't use the battle for Danzo either, he wasn't IC then.

How is the Sannin not directly confronting Susano ironic? It would be common sense to not go head on against near impenetrable defenses and dangerous offenses in CQC. They would either use amazing long range jutsu to wear them down, or other passive long range jutsu. The other option is a sneak attack.

Wasn't that bloodlusted? He was clearly going to go to extreme lengths to kill him as evidensed by him leaving his body in the care of Sakura, Would he really put his body at that much risk just to kill a Sannin when he has other ways that don't put his body at risk? Still, he can't do a thing with Kamui since he either can't target the dangerous ones or they are too big.



Selim said:


> Well, you can't demand that Itachi act in-character if in-character he purposefully died to his opponent or refuses to kill those loyal to Konoha. *If that's not abusing the in-character rule then nothing is. *


That isn't him being IC battle wise, you are confusing IC in the manga and IC in battle.

Oh really then, saying Jiraiya goofs around while Danzo is unsealing his arm isn't abusing the IC rule then  I was waiting for this post, Illusory.



> We saw Itachi bloodlusted against Orochimaru, and he didn't hold back.


Susano won't be as deadly with full knowledge, and why are we talking about him bloodlusted when that isn't happening here?

Except, he already had Susano activated at that point and that was his only jutsu, he couldn't use Amaterasu or Tsukyomi. All other jutsu were out of the question against something that big. With no Amaterasu he couldn't do anything else to it.



> We saw Kakashi ready to open with Kamui against Madara.


Wasn't that bloodlusted? He was clearly going to go to extreme lengths to kill him as evidensed by him leaving his body in the care of Sakura, Would he really put his body at that much risk just to kill a Sannin. Even though he can't do a thing since he either can't target the dangerous ones or they are too big.

I also doubt Kakashi would think of the Sannin on the same threat level as Madara was at that time.



> If he's up against the Sannin, and has full knowledge of their capabilities, do you think he's going to hold back?


The problem is IC he would hold back, and he can't actually do anything with Kamui here.



> This is what I mean, Sanbi. I don't enter threads like these to watch people squirm around technicalities to give one side a chance.


What, you being a hypocrite about the IC rule? Or talking about stuff that won't happen with the conditions in the OP? I don't really get how using IC as a basis on what people will and won't do is squirming around technicalities. Like Jiraiya probably wouldn't use Frog Song, they wouldn't summon the boss summons, Oro wouldn't use Hydra. How is this any different for Team Sharingan.


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## Sadgoob (May 20, 2010)

I'd like to hear how the Sannin avoid Sasuke's Susano'o arrow opening. You know, the one Kakashi couldn't avoid and that he needed to counter with Kamui?

And lol at your accusations of hypocrisy. I'm sure Itachi will treat the Sannin like Kurenai and Kakashi won't consider the three Sannin as a threat comparable to a weak Madara. Whatever it takes for the Sannin to win in your head lol. 

Jiraiya without knowledge on Danzō is clearly different, but I won't waste time trying to explain that simply concept to you.


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## Akimichi Farley (May 20, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Kamui is enough to instantly kill a Sannin, so that's enough.
> 
> Besides, he offers intelligence, clones and a vast array of abilities for support.
> 
> ...




Itachi is certainly a top tier combatant, and 1 on 1 could hold his own against any of the sannin, I simply feel that in this scenario the three sharingan users would be either overwhelmed or outlasted. I even proposed a strategy that could prove effective against genjutsu. 

Unless the discussion manages to touch upon probable means by how team sharingan could overcome the odds here I won't be changing my mind.


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## Sadgoob (May 20, 2010)

Akimichi, how are the Sannin going to counter ? Kakashi didn't have time to form a seal or move. I think everyone saying the Sannin would win in this thread have serious perception issues.


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## Sanbi (May 20, 2010)

Selim said:


> I'd like to hear how the Sannin avoid Sasuke's Susano'o arrow opening. You know, the one Kakashi couldn't avoid and that he needed to counter with Kamui?


Like the one he started up while bloodlusted?



> And lol at your accusations of hypocrisy.


Ok, so saying Itachi won't immediately use Susano to off the Sannin while IC is abusing the IC rule and saying Jiraiya will goof off while Danzo unseals his arm isn't abusing the IC rule? I guess that is just logical then 



> I'm sure Itachi will treat the Sannin like Kurenai


He would, since he was IC then.



> Kakashi will treat the Sannin like he treated Deva Path without any knowledge of the path's abilities.


He would. 



> Whatever it takes for the Sannin to win in your head lol.


Did I ever say the Sannin would win?  I'm saying the Sannin wouldn't be "_outmatched_" like you seem to want to suggest.


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## Sadgoob (May 20, 2010)

I never said Itachi would immediately use Susano'o, but that he and Sasuke had the capability to be invincible for prolonged amounts of time on top of possessing techniques the Sannin are hard pressed to avoid. 

Sanbi, stop addressing me please. Our discussions are always fruitless.


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## Sanbi (May 20, 2010)

Oh, just for the record I got an answer from Suu about the IC Jiraiya argument. Here is his response:



> Oh, I thought you meant the "leave my team IC" line often used in the KC.
> 
> If you mean the IC rule in the BD, then it's a little different. However, I think it can be safely assumed that Jiraiya won't be 'goofing around' in the midst of battle. It's clear that most of the scenes that he does goof around in are in there simply for comic relief, not to make some sort of comment upon his battle ethic.
> 
> Regardless, it's a weak argument.



Oh, and you only commenting on Itachi using Susano seemed to imply you did. Maybe you should put more details next time.


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## Sadgoob (May 20, 2010)

Obviously, you phrased it incorrectly as the argument wasn't that "Jiraiya would be goofing around in the midst of battle," but that he is like Kirābī in the sense that he is typically not serious in the first stages of a conflict when he lacks knowledge on how dangerous an opponent is and that Danzō would successfully remove his seal because of it.

And your inaccurate inference is your own fault. Don't blame others. Stating that Susano'o would come in to play in no way implies it would be the first thing Itachi would do. I'd prefer if you didn't resort to strawman arguments.


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## Ejenku (May 20, 2010)

I would give this to the Sannin because of boss summons, which they would summon immediately ic. None of the Sharingan users can defeat a large summon w/o using MS, which take up alot of chakra. Itachi/Kakashi can only use about 3 MS attacks and Sasuke probably around 6-7 with other jutsu. Regular sharingan genjutsu would be useless with so many summons. MS genjutsu would have to be used to put down any summon/sannin, but recovery is possibly unless it's Itachi.The Sannin can summon Manda Gamabunta/Gamahiro/Gamaken and Katsuya. Plus a lot of fodder snakes/frogs. 

Each of the Sannin would require MS to defeat as well. Orochimaru because of Yamata/Oral rebirth..Tsunade with Katsuya healing her and as a shield and Jiraiya in sage mode. I can't see team Sharingan winning this without being extremely exhausted/near death. I still give team sannin the advantage but team sharingan can win.


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## Prince Vegeta (May 20, 2010)

Lol  all 3 sannin are experienced fighters they were in the great war

sharingan wont mean much in this fight,


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## Akimichi Farley (May 20, 2010)

Selim said:


> Akimichi, how are the Sannin going to counter ? Kakashi didn't have time to form a seal or move. I think everyone saying the Sannin would win in this thread have serious perception issues.



Orochimaru has been subjected to many forms of dismemberment and abuse and has shown to be capable of rejuvenating his body via a handfull of means. Tsunade's rejuvenating technique is supposed to be even better (the best in fact). Jiraiya hasn't shown anything that would allow him to tank a susano arrow, that I concede. 

However, we can see that susano arrows would not be the showstopper in this matchup. In addition, unless susano arrows home in on their target all we can say for certain is that for a stationary target the attack is nearly impossible to counter, whereas we can argue that the case is different for moving targets.


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## Lightysnake (May 20, 2010)

It would likely slam into one of Jiraiya's kage bunshins while he uses Toad Silhouette anyways. 
What prevents Team Sharingan from losing a member right off to Yomi Numa anyways?


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## Marsala (May 20, 2010)

Ejenku said:


> I would give this to the Sannin because of boss summons, which they would summon immediately ic. None of the Sharingan users can defeat a large summon w/o using MS, which take up alot of chakra. Itachi/Kakashi can only use about 3 MS attacks and Sasuke probably around 6-7 with other jutsu. Regular sharingan genjutsu would be useless with so many summons.


Wait, what? Where do you get that idea? Look how quickly Sasuke hypnotized Manda. Now picture him and Itachi, who is better at genjutsu, doing that repetitively. They'll have all of the summonses under genjutsu in seconds. Also they can send any genjutsu'ed summons to attack the others.


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## Akimichi Farley (May 20, 2010)

> What prevents Team Sharingan from losing a member right off to Yomi Numa anyways?



Yomi Numa and not only. This is what I have been arguing from the beginning. I even put in the effort to find and link to a good sampling of the sannin's array of techniques with quite large AOE. 

What is team Sharingan's answer to these and to summons that can wreck the battlefield?



Marsala said:


> Wait, what? Where do you get that idea? Look how quickly Sasuke hypnotized Manda. Now picture him and Itachi, who is better at genjutsu, doing that repetitively. They'll have all of the summonses under genjutsu in seconds. Also they can send any genjutsu'ed summons to attack the others.



This is a valid point although don't you think that the summoners or lesser summons if any are around would make it a priority to break the genjutsu of anyone affected?

Genjutsu would not play any major role in this matchup I'm afraid. (It has even been stated to be most effective in 1 on 1 situations)


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## Butt Hole lol (May 20, 2010)

How are the sannin going to dodge attacks like Sasuno/arrows,Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, and kumia? 
Even when team sharingan is in base form team sannin is going have one hell of a fight.
Itachi>Orochimaru (genjutsu. Gg)
Sasuke>Jiraiya (sasuno arrows!)
Kakashi>Tsunade(full knowlege, with raiton moves that can arguably kill her in an instant)


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## Sanbi (May 20, 2010)

Selim said:


> Obviously, you phrased it incorrectly as the argument wasn't that "Jiraiya would be goofing around in the midst of battle," but that he is like Kirābī in the sense that he is typically not serious in the first stages of a conflict when he lacks knowledge on how dangerous an opponent is and that Danzō would successfully remove his seal because of it.


I phrased it how I saw it. I just simplified it. I asked, if Jiraiya was IC would he goof off or talk to the person while the set up something, or would he fight normally. But, I never mentioned Jiraiya goofing off in the middle of a battle. It was Suu's reply not mine.

You are welcome to VM Suu yourself though.



> And your inaccurate inference is your own fault. Don't blame others. Stating that Susano'o would come in to play in no way implies it would be the first thing Itachi would do. I'd prefer if you didn't resort to strawman arguments.


I merely stated that you should add more details to your response, as that would contribute more to the debate then just saying how Susano is invincible. 

Btw, what are we arguing about? If you aren't saying Susano comes out in the beginning why didn't you mention anything? I was arguing how Itachi and Sasuke wouldn't immediately bring out MS. Why were you arguing back if you didn't think they will either?


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## Sadgoob (May 20, 2010)

Akimichi Farley said:


> Orochimaru has been subjected to many forms of dismemberment and abuse and has shown to be capable of rejuvenating his body via a handfull of means. Tsunade's rejuvenating technique is supposed to be even better (the best in fact). Jiraiya hasn't shown anything that would allow him to tank a susano arrow, that I concede.
> 
> However, we can see that susano arrows would not be the showstopper in this matchup. In addition, unless susano arrows home in on their target all we can say for certain is that for a stationary target the attack is nearly impossible to counter, whereas we can argue that the case is different for moving targets.



No, I can't see how the Susano'o arrow would fail to be a showstopper, and I would really appreciate you explaining it to me. You seem levelheaded enough, and I'm feeling quite ignorant disagreeing with you, but you *did* just concede that Jiraiya is screwed, Orochimaru would regenerate, and Tsunade would have to use her trump card against an opening maneuver. All of that takes time, and I don't think Kakashi or Itachi are the type to waste time.

Additionally, I don't think it's a fair assumption to say that Sasuke's Susano'o can't use more than one arrow, and we have seen him use techniques in conjunction with Susano'o. Amaterasu, Kirin, Chidori Eisō ... there's a lot of messy stuff available to him while Susano'o is shooting these incredibly fast arrows that are impossible for even Kakashi to avoid at a very substantial distance. So we have Sasuke inside this nearly impenetrable war god shooting arrows shooting black fire and lightning who has also been shown to control boss summons with his eyes, and that's just Sasuke. 

Itachi is even worse if you think about him logically. He's faster than most of the people on the field, you can't really look at him without ending up in a Genjutsu and being stripped of your senses for at least a few seconds, and if you don't look at him then he's going to use his extraordinary speed to close distance and inevitably peg his target with Amaterasu or Susano'o depending on the opponent. He won't waste stamina given full knowledge, and he may have a similar amount to Sasuke given the OP lists him as healthy. I'm not saying he can control summons with his eyes, but it isn't unlikely, and depsite what people think, the Sannin do *not* call all of their Pokemon out at once. And, even if they did, we've seen what Susano'o does to giant creatures, and we know that the Sharingan can control them and that at least Sasuke has the capability.

Basically, I disagree with you on almost all point, really. Itachi and Sasuke are above the Sannin level, and Kakashi is at the Sannin level. Kamui puts him above and beyond, but even without it, he's a monster that can defeat Tsunade and can contend with Orochimaru or Jiraiya on pure intellect and diversity. If he realizes Jiraiya is enabled his speed by the toads on his shoulders, and he very likely would, then Jiraiya is knocked back down to Tsunade's level.


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## Velocity (May 20, 2010)

Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru take this. As powerful as Itachi, Kakashi and Sasuke are, all three of them would have to use their Mangekyo Sharingans off the bat just to stand a chance. We must remember that each of the Sannin fought beside each other in a team of unequalled reputation. The teamwork of these three is considerably greater than the teamwork of Sasuke, Itachi and Kakashi (who have no experience of fighting beside each other at their current levels).

Sasuke has a powerful Amaterasu but a weak Tsukuyomi (if it even is Tsukuyomi). Itachi has a powerful Tsukuyomi but a weak Amaterasu. Both have fully evolved Susano'o's, but only Itachi actually has the Sword of Totsuka and the Yata Mirror. Sasuke relies almost exclusively on his Mangekyo Sharingan, rarely ever pulling off a Chidori, whereas Itachi uses his in tandem with ordinary jutsu. Kakashi has Kamui to take care of ranged attacks and uses it purely defensively - but has shown that Kamui is sufficiently capable of teleporting even objects as large and as fast as one of Sasuke's Susano'o arrows.

Jiraiya has Sage Mode, a veritable army of toads and a considerable variety of Earth and Fire jutsu. Of his summons, all of them are intelligent and capable of complex teamwork, while some are capable of combo jutsu and both Ma and Pa Toad can work in tandem to pull off their Frog Song genjutsu - which, if not prevented, is capable of ending any fight instantly. Orochimaru is just as much of a threat thanks to his equally large army of snakes, near-invincibility and an impressive array of ninjutsu of his own. Tsunade has a summon of her own that is as intelligent as the toads Jiraiya has and can heal wounds and relay information, as well as Tsunade's own incredible physical strength.

As far as I'm concerned, the Sannin take it. They've got the repertiore, the teamwork and the experience. All any of them actually have to do is stall, anyway, if they choose to have Ma and Pa Toad perform the Frog Song.


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## Sadgoob (May 20, 2010)

*twitch*

Itachi does not have a weak Amaterasu, in fact, it's much stronger than Sasuke's. You're confusing it with Kagutsuchi, which is . And never mind how Hermit Mode Jiraiya has never summoned a large toad, let alone an army, just like Sasuke has never used Amaterasu to set up Kirin while flying on a falcon with Susano'o shooting arrows from above.

Orochimaru, Tsunade, Itachi, and to lesser degree, Kakashi, actually have valid reasons for not going all out on their opponents.


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## Ejenku (May 20, 2010)

Marsala said:


> Wait, what? Where do you get that idea? Look how quickly Sasuke hypnotized Manda. Now picture him and Itachi, who is better at genjutsu, doing that repetitively. They'll have all of the summonses under genjutsu in seconds. Also they can send any genjutsu'ed summons to attack the others.



With full knowledge anyone caught in a genjutsu would be knocked out of it. We haven't seen anyone attacking someone else via genjutsu not saying it isn't possibly because it is obviously but we haven't seen anyone do it.


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## Lightysnake (May 20, 2010)

Selim said:


> *twitch*
> 
> Itachi does not have a weak Amaterasu, in fact, it's much stronger than Sasuke's.


Since when? The residual flames are just as weak



> You're confusing it with Kagutsuchi, which is . And never mind how Hermit Mode Jiraiya has never summoned a large toad, let alone an army, just like Sasuke has never used Amaterasu to set up Kirin while flying on a falcon with Susano'o shooting arrows from above.


Jiraiya knew he'd just get them killed. With Jiraiya's incredible amount of chakra, he could easily summon Ken, Bunta and Hiro himself. 

Not only that, but Enton is just a release: 'Blaze' release. He still uses Amaterasu.


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## Turrin (May 20, 2010)

I honestly don't know what people are expecting Team Sharigan to do about the 10 or So Boss sized Summons the Sannin can conjure. And while at the same time they are dealing with that they are going to have their foothold Shatter by Tsunade, have dozens of snakes attack them via Oro's snake bollimia and have Yomi numa appear beneath them.


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## Marsala (May 20, 2010)

Ejenku said:


> With full knowledge anyone caught in a genjutsu would be knocked out of it.


"Full knowledge" is not the same as "omniscience". They will know that Itachi is a very dangerous genjutsu user; they will not know when and how they are put under genjutsu.


> We haven't seen anyone attacking someone else via genjutsu not saying it isn't possibly because it is obviously but we haven't seen anyone do it.


If Deidara could be tricked into attacking _himself_, it should be easy to trick summonses into attacking allies.


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## Lightysnake (May 20, 2010)

Yeah, but if they try that, then team Sannin can just throw another summon at the Genjutsu user. Breaking it


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## Velocity (May 20, 2010)

Selim said:


> *twitch*
> 
> Itachi does not have a weak Amaterasu, in fact, it's much stronger than Sasuke's. You're confusing it with Kagutsuchi, which is . And never mind how Hermit Mode Jiraiya has never summoned a large toad, let alone an army, just like Sasuke has never used Amaterasu to set up Kirin while flying on a falcon with Susano'o shooting arrows from above.
> 
> Orochimaru, Tsunade, Itachi, and to lesser degree, Kakashi, actually have valid reasons for not going all out on their opponents.



From what we've been told by Kishimoto, Sasuke's Mangekyo Sharingan is stronger than Itachi's. Or it's potential is, whatever. It stands to reason that Itachi is a genjutsu combatant, thus his Tsukuyomi is the stronger and most used of the two, while Sasuke is a ninjutsu combatant whose Amaterasu is stronger and the most used. Kagutsuchi, while different, is still proof that Sasuke's Amaterasu is considerably more advanced.

You're confusing potential power with skills being used in different circumstances. We have no idea how powerful Itachi's Amaterasu is, but we can gather it isn't as strong as Sasuke's simply from the difference in their respective applications. We know what toads Jiraiya can summon and I don't recall reading anywhere that using Sage Mode prevents you from summoning. So we know Team Sannin can still summon the same army that Ma Toad summoned for Naruto, regardless of whether Jiraiya does it or Ma Toad does it. Just like we know, out of the two Amaterasu's we've seen, Itachi's is the weakest and the least used.


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## Sadgoob (May 20, 2010)

You missed the points entirely:

1. Itachi Amaterasu feats > Sasuke's Amaterasu feats.
2. Sasuke's Kagutsuchi ≠ Sasuke's Amaterasu > Itachi's Amaterasu
3. Jiraiya doing things he has never shown in tandem = Sasuke or Itachi doing the same.

You're blurring the line. I know Jiriaya has the potential to summon four very large toads in Hermit Mode, but I also know that Sasuke has the potential to solo the match by retreating very, very high in to the air while sniping with Susano'o arrows for ten minutes while firing off Amaterasu and Genjutsu whenever he pleases. I know that each Susano'o should theoretically be able to be lit up with Amaterasu and easily spread the flame without depleting the durability of Susano'o, rather, enhancing it. I know that Sasuke's blood should still be on the snake contract.

What we know could happen and what characters do are different. The fact is Hermit Mode Jiraiya doesn't summon multiple frogs at once, in fact, he doesn't summon any frogs in Hermit Mode. I just noticed in your post how you stated that Sasuke will only use eye techniques and Itachi will combine them with lesser techniques while also stating that the Sannin will do things they have never done.

You can't have it both ways.


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## Lightysnake (May 20, 2010)

Yeah, if Sasuke tries that, the others can bunshin out of it...and extending Kusanagi is bad for that. Or Katsuyu, who's immune to anything Sasuke can do. The Sannin can comfortably wait him out there. 
And Sasuke's Amaterasu is better than Itachi's. Provide proof to the contrary please?


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 20, 2010)

Selim said:


> No, I'm pretty sure the Sharingan team would stomp. Two members of that team are invincible for about ten minutes that are within nearly unavoidable wargods and Kakashi can take out any Sannin with Kamui.



1.) Kakashi would lose to any of the Sannin, especially with these conditions.
2.) The downside is that it drains them of their chakra relatively quickly, and compared to the Sannin, they've got incredibly small chakra pools. If it's a game of stamina, Sannin win.
3.) Kakashi can't Kamui. OP dictates.


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## Sadgoob (May 20, 2010)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> 1.) Kakashi would lose to any of the Sannin, especially with these conditions.
> 2.) The downside is that it drains them of their chakra relatively quickly, and compared to the Sannin, they've got incredibly small chakra pools. If it's a game of stamina, Sannin win.
> 3.) Kakashi can't Kamui. OP dictates.



1. Kakashi could beat Tsunade even with his best technique restricted 

2. Unavoidable techniques means it's not a game of stamina, obviously.

3. Kakashi can't Kamui the Sannin. Shima and Fukasaku are fair game.


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## Sanbi (May 20, 2010)

Oh and HM Jiraiya


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 20, 2010)

Selim said:


> 1. Kakashi could beat Tsunade even with his best technique restricted
> 
> 2. Unavoidable techniques means it's not a game of stamina, obviously.
> 
> 3. Kakashi can't Kamui the Sannin. Shima and Fukasaku are fair game.



1.) Lol. Souzou Saisei tanks all. Long-range attacks would be ineffective, as she'd have ample time to dodge them -- a skill she specializes in. Close quarters is his best shot, and she rapes in that. Kamui is his only hope, but it's restricted.

2.) There's plenty of summons to overwhelm them. Buy time, and Frog Song solos.

3.) Shima and Fukasaku, fused to Jiraiya's body, can't be warped. They're part of his body.


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## Sadgoob (May 20, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Oh and HM Jiraiya



Nice find, but it's funny that Jiraiya isn't in Hermit Mode in the second scan


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## Sanbi (May 20, 2010)

He was in HM when he was inside it earlier. Therefore he had to have summoned it while in HM


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## Sadgoob (May 20, 2010)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> 1.) Lol. Souzou Saisei tanks all.



Nah-uh.



LegendaryBeauty said:


> 2.) There's plenty of summons to overwhelm them. Buy time, and Frog Song solos.



The thing about Frog Song is that its range isn't infinite. In fact, it probably doesn't span more than a hundred feet. Naraka, Deva, and Asura will attest to that. And why would it work with full knowledge and with so many instant, deadly techniques on the field?



LegendaryBeauty said:


> 3.) Shima and Fukasaku, fused to Jiraiya's body, can't be warped. They're part of *his body*.



They are not Sannin and thus can be warped. 



Sanbi said:


> He was in HM when he was inside it earlier. Therefore he had to have summoned it while in HM



I agree, conede, etc. Jeez lol.


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## Butt Hole lol (May 20, 2010)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> 1.) Lol. Souzou Saisei tanks all. Long-range attacks would be ineffective, as she'd have ample time to dodge them -- a skill she specializes in.




from what we've seen from the manga creation rebirth doesnt last very long. If she does activate it she going to turn into an old hag in a few minutes making her completly useless afterwards. 



> Close quarters is his best shot, and she rapes in that. Kamui is his only hope, but it's restricted.



If kabuto was able to keep up with her then kakashi most definetly can.

Kabuto even stated he isnt very good at taijutsu and he was doing remarkably well against her. Kabuto has 3.5 in both speed and taijutsu according to the databook and kakashi is at 4.5 in both speed and tiajutsu + hes got the sharingan to predict her movements. Like i said Doton/Raikiri should be enough to k0 Tsunade.


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## Sadgoob (May 20, 2010)

In Tsunade's defense, the databook stats are from part II after she had been training and getting back in to shape. I would argue that Tsunade would have had substantially lower proficiency in Taijutsu in her part I showing. However, Kakashi could still take her.


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## Velocity (May 20, 2010)

Selim said:


> You missed the points entirely:
> 
> 1. Itachi Amaterasu feats > Sasuke's Amaterasu feats.
> 2. Sasuke's Kagutsuchi ≠ Sasuke's Amaterasu > Itachi's Amaterasu
> ...



I'm not blurring the line at all. You say you know certain characters have the potential to do certain things, but then you theorise that they can do others. Point is, certain things have been laid out on-panel by Kishimoto himself and I don't see how they can be argued.

We have no proof that the Susano'o that can fire arrows is mobile. It's a heavily armoured form and we don't even know if it's possible to use that Susano'o form without the ground to support it, or if Sasuke can jump around with it active. He's never tried. In fact, he's never even *moved* with the armoured Susano'o active. We do, however, know that Sasuke's partial Susano'o is as mobile as he is - but that has only ever been shown with its bones bare with one arm missing and no visible weaponry.

With Jiraiya, we've seen him summon a buttload of toads before and we've also seen one of his toads summon a buttload of toads before. So whether Jiraiya can do it or not, and there's nothing to prove that he can't, is pretty much irrelevant since Ma Toad can do it for him anyway.

As for my comment regarding tactics, I'm only putting forward what we've seen. Sasuke used very few non-Mangekyo Sharingan techniques during the Kage Summit arc. In fact, he used his Mangekyo Sharingan so much within that period of maybe an hour that he blinded himself completely by the end of it. Itachi proved he relied less on his Mangekyo Sharingan, prefering standard Katon, genjutsu and Kage Bushin techniques, but wasn't afraid to use it sparingly. That I said he would use his Mangekyo Sharingan less than Sasuke is true, since it's in his nature to fight in that way.

Also, nothing I said about the Sannin tactically has never been done by any of them. Jiraiya distracted and held off his opponents while Pa and Ma Toad charged up Frog Song, Jiraiya has used combo jutsu with Gamabunta before, Orochimaru has repeatedly proven his near-invincibility and Tsunade used Katsuyu for the very purpose of healing multiple ninja and relaying information.


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 20, 2010)

Selim said:


> Nah-uh.



Anything you can do, I can do better~

Yuh-huh.



> The thing about Frog Song is that its range isn't infinite. In fact, it probably doesn't span more than a hundred feet. Naraka, Deva, and Asura will attest to that. And why would it work with full knowledge and with so many instant, deadly techniques on the field?



Good thing, then, that distance is 25 metres? Approximately 82.0209973753 Feet. A generous amount under your cap, isn't it?



> They are not Sannin and thus can be warped.



They are fused to Sannin, thus can't be touched. 



> I agree, conede, etc. Jeez lol.



Good boy.



Party Hat said:


> from what we've seen from the manga creation rebirth doesnt last very long. If she does activate it she going to turn into an old hag in a few minutes making her completly useless afterwards.


 
I should really get that "How Long Does Souzou Saisei" thread done. It lasted the entire Sannin fight: from her activating it, to her walking with Jiraiya as the scene/time changed, and found Naruto/Shizune. Whom Tsunade specifically instructed to go far away for the battle. It didn't wear out during the time it took to find them. She even had time to reminisce, and even state that it was going to happen before it did. It'll last long enough.


> If kabuto was able to keep up with her then kakashi most definetly can.



Considering the shape Tsunade was in, she put on a spectacular battle. So much so that even Kabuto struggled, despite all his advantages.

Do you remember how he had to end it? He had to use the phobia, because he wasn't able to subdue her any other way.



> Kabuto even stated he isnt very good at taijutsu and he was doing remarkably well against her. Kabuto has 3.5 in both speed and taijutsu according to the databook and kakashi is at 4.5 in both speed and tiajutsu + hes got the sharingan to predict her movements. Like i said Doton/Raikiri should be enough to k0 Tsunade.



Yet he kept up with a Sannin, due to his advantages. Even then, she was gaining the upper hand, and he had to use the phobia. Again.

Tsunade reacted to Kabuto's doton. They're ineffective, as she's shown. She can evade them, even when not in top form. She has her own electrical attack, so we'll see which is more effective. A piercing one she can heal, or one that screws up his movements.


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## Aoshi (May 20, 2010)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Anything you can do, I can do better~
> 
> Yuh-huh.
> 
> ...



Explain to me what the Sannin can do to block the Amaterasu barrage. Explain to me what the Sannin can do to block the Susano defense. Remember this is IC, so Orochimaru will most likely charge in foolishly with his arrogant attitude. He will get shut down by the Sword of Totsuka.


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## Lightysnake (May 20, 2010)

Orochimaru isn't an idiot, and he's well aware of their power regardless. Rashomon gates, kage bunshin and Katsuyu help against amaterasu.


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## Aoshi (May 20, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Orochimaru isn't an idiot, and he's well aware of their power regardless. Rashomon gates, kage bunshin and Katsuyu help against amaterasu.



Rashomon Gates can easily be maneuvered around.


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 21, 2010)

KnownTitanKid said:


> Explain to me what the Sannin can do to block the Amaterasu barrage. Explain to me what the Sannin can do to block the Susano defense. Remember this is IC, so Orochimaru will most likely charge in foolishly with his arrogant attitude. He will get shut down by the Sword of Totsuka.



Amaterasu can be dealt with. Orochimaru can simply spit himself a new body. Tsunade can cut off any affected part of herself, anduse Souzou Saisei to grow a new one. Jiraiya is too fast in HM to be caught.

How do you block a defense? Defenses _block_. You can't block a block.

This is Orochimaru IC with knowledge, and his teammates. He's never rushed in foolishly in a fight. You're confusing him with his apprentice, Sasuke.


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## Jinnobi (May 21, 2010)

> Jiraiya is too fast in HM to be caught.



No, he's not. The Raikage with knowledge and preparation dodged it. HM Jiraiya doesn't have the reflexes to move faster than the eye can focus. 

If Tsunade was hit directly, or if her entire body was on fire, she would be dead. There are no cutting off body parts when it's your entire body. Plus, Amaretsu would be torturously painful and either cause her to faint or at least cripple her movement, making her a prime target for a Susano'o arrow/sealing.


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## Lightysnake (May 21, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> No, he's not. The Raikage with knowledge and preparation dodged it. HM Jiraiya doesn't have the reflexes to move faster than the eye can focus.


Says who? He wass clearing large distances in the blink of an eye



> If Tsunade was hit directly, or if her entire body was on fire, she would be dead. There are no cutting off body parts when it's your entire body. Plus, Amaretsu would be torturously painful and either cause her to faint or at least cripple her movement, making her a prime target for a Susano'o arrow/sealing.


omehow, I'll let Katsuyu tank it for her


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2010)

Ē's refelexes were compared to Minato's in base *before* the shroud.

Hermit Mode Jiraiya isn't that fast.


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 21, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> No, he's not. The Raikage with knowledge and preparation dodged it. HM Jiraiya doesn't have the reflexes to move faster than the eye can focus.
> 
> *If Tsunade was hit directly, or if her entire body was on fire, she would be dead.* There are no cutting off body parts when it's your entire body. Plus, Amaretsu would be torturously painful and either cause her to faint or at least cripple her movement, making her a prime target for a Susano'o arrow/sealing.



Yes, because compared to the huge summons likely to be hit, small Tsunade is going to get Amaterasu'd.


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## Shay (May 21, 2010)

Regards,

If you set Tsunade on fire with Amaterasu, she'd probably just activate Genesis Rebirth and proceed to hug the enemy team.

Thank you for your time,
~Shay


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## Lightysnake (May 21, 2010)

Selim said:


> Ē's refelexes were compared to Minato's in base *before* the shroud.
> 
> Hermit Mode Jiraiya isn't that fast.



No, they weren't. The context is using the lightning shroud to boost him. Minato has the best speed feat in the entire manga on his own. A had trouble blitzing Sasuke before Suigetsu could stop him

Jiraiya is much faster than his own, already extremely fast self. In Sage Mode, he should be closer than you think


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> No, they weren't. The context is using the lightning shroud to boost him. Minato has the best speed feat in the entire manga on his own. A had trouble blitzing Sasuke before Suigetsu could stop him
> 
> Jiraiya is much faster than his own, already extremely fast self. In Sage Mode, he should be closer than you think



Wrong. First, Minato's feat is one of teleportation. Secondly, Madara has the best teleportation feat in the manga. Lastly, Shī clearly says the Raikage's reflexes are comparable to Minato's *but* with the the shroud not even the Sharingan can see his movements.

_Minato beat fodder with speed. Whoopdeefuckingdoo._


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## Butt Hole lol (May 21, 2010)

HM jiraiya isnt as fast as raikage, he's not going to be dodging amaterasu and especially not sasuno arrows. The summons can be dealt with  easily with sasuno arrows or with the sword of sealing that itachi possess.


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## Lightysnake (May 21, 2010)

Selim said:


> Wrong. First, Minato's feat is one of teleportation. Secondly, Madara has the best teleportation feat in the manga. Lastly, Shī clearly says the Raikage's reflexes are comparable to Minato's *but* with the the shroud not even the Sharingan can see his movements.
> 
> _Minato beat fodder with speed. Whoopdeefuckingdoo._



Yeah, remember when Kakashi had charged off on his own and was about to get sliced in half? Minato looks up, still in position with OBito and Rin and then immediately grabs Kakashi from the sword, leaps off and is back to Obito and Rin before the guy even realizes Kakashi's been taken....then Minato simply vanishes again, reappearing behind him. Rin even notes this is his speed, not anything with space-time. 

And there is no 'but.' Shi merely elaborates


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2010)

Incorrect.


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## Lightysnake (May 21, 2010)

Well, good to see you aren't pursuing the Minato point at least.

and pay attention to context.He's saying the reflexdes are comparable *with the shroud*, hence how he's impressed they can *currently* keep up with him.


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2010)

*"But now"* obviously means what you refuse to believe. He said that the Raikage's reflexes are on par with Minato's, but now that his shroud was up, he was on an entirely different level. Minato just wasn't as fast as you would like to believe. He was surpassed by Naruto.


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## Jinnobi (May 21, 2010)

It's very obvious to any neutral reader, Illusory. However, nothing that isn't BLATANTLY stated will be contended by fandom. In fact, some _blatantly_ stated things are disputed... (i.e. Yata's Mirror)


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## Lightysnake (May 21, 2010)

In what way was Minato surpassed by Naruto? You can be stronger than someone overall, that doesn't mean you're faster than them.

Shi says he can't believe they're reacting to the Raikage when he has the reflexes of the Yellow Flash. And he has the shroud up.

We have a direct feat from Nagato that surpasses A who was unable to blitz someone in a 4.5 in speed before being blocked by Suigetsu


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2010)

None of that made sense. The language very obviously states that Ē's base reflexes are even with Minato and that shrouded reflexes surpass Minato, but where on earth does Nagato come in?

And, just to put your Minato fandom in perspective, Haku was said by Zabuza to have killed Jōnin and to have top notch speed. , and that freaked Zabuza out. Then Gai, who is as fast as Itachi,  who crapped all over Haku who craps all over fodder Jōnin.

So... Minato's feat isn't applicable nor is it particularly impressive.


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## justarandomguy (May 21, 2010)

how did a battle between sauske, itachi, kakashi and the sannin lead to a heated disscussion of minato's speed?


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2010)

"Hermit Mode Jiraiya can dodge Amaterasu."

Hermit Mode Jiraiya < Minato = Ē < Shrouded Ē


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## justarandomguy (May 21, 2010)

it is physically impossibile for him to do that. amaterasu is almost instanatenous, so jiraya would have to move as soon as his eye transmits the image to his brain, so he would need inncreased nerve transmission, which i don't recall being an effect of sage mode.


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## Lightysnake (May 21, 2010)

Selim said:


> None of that made sense. The language very obviously states that Ē's base reflexes are even with Minato and that shrouded reflexes surpass Minato, but where on earth does Nagato come in?


No, you're choosing to interpret it that way alone.



> And, just to put your Minato fandom in perspective, Haku was said by Zabuza to have killed Jōnin and to have top notch speed. , and that freaked Zabuza out. Then Gai, who is as fast as Itachi,  who crapped all over Haku who craps all over fodder Jōnin.
> 
> So... Minato's feat isn't applicable nor is it particularly impressive.



How does ANY of that apply to what I said? Haku's stats make him a mid tier genin and I'm sure he did just fine with Zabuza backing him up and giving him the shots. 

So, your evidence is basically "Look at these unrelated people!"

Besides, Shi only said the Raikage's reflexes were 'comparable' to Minato's. Minato's speed is still higher.

And I never even mention the fodder Jonin being fast. The fact remains, before the guy could even finish a sword swing, Minato covered a huge difference, seized Kakashi and vanished from sight holding him. Then went back behind the guy. 

Yeah, but covering an enormous distance like that while barely even being seen? There isn't much else that compares.

And hell, Human Realm was able to land in the middle of two jonin, three ANBU and a Chuunin-two of whom are Sensors before anybody even knew they were there. And Inoichi is a good sensor.
We've seen Itachi be kept up with in speed by PTs Kakashi. We know logically a Sage Mode Jiraiya should have an easy 5 in speed.

So, yeah, Minato's feat 'isn't impressive?' Please


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2010)

justarandomguy said:


> it is physically impossibile for him to do that. amaterasu is almost instanatenous, so jiraya would have to move as soon as his eye transmits the image to his brain, so he would need inncreased nerve transmission, which i don't recall being an effect of sage mode.



Fandom is as fandom does.



Lightysnake said:


> So, yeah, Minato's feat 'isn't impressive?' Please



Part I Sasuke speeded through someone of more renown. -snip-


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## Lightysnake (May 21, 2010)

Selim said:


> It's not, but fandom is as fandom does.



Hi, Gaara, tell us how you blocked Amaterasu again?

By the way, Sasuke was quite clearly saying "You blocked my flames" according to Binktopia. And he had to do it multiple times judging by all the burning back


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Hi, Gaara, tell us how you blocked Amaterasu again?



Hey, Gaara, tell us how far away you were again? 



Oh, that's right, far, far away against a close range attack. And his gourd sand is likely faster than Jiraiya anyways as it caught a speeding,  and blocked  on top of intercepting the Raikage's kick. So if you're trying to make a point, you're doing it wrong.


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## Lightysnake (May 21, 2010)

Than sage Mode Jiraiya. Yeah.

And this ain't 'hundreds' of feet.

And Haku's brilliant speed is a 4. Hardly amazing.

And I keep saying I'm referring to the distance covered by Minato. You keep ignoring it


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2010)

Yes, I'm sure that fodder ninja had higher speed lol. What about ?

Please. Fodder is fodder.


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## Lightysnake (May 21, 2010)

What part of *We are talking about the distance covered by Minato* do you not get here?


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2010)

What part of *distance is divided by time* which is determined through reaction speed aren't you understanding? For instance, Kirābī has the largest shunshin distance in the manga and yet Kisame, who has an "unimpressive 4 in speed," was superior in CQC.

Fodder is as fodder does. Minato has a 5 in speed, but he's not faster than the Raikage, Gai, or Itachi without teleportation. Hermit Mode Jiraiya is slower still in all likeliness as Senjutsu doesn't increase reflexes.


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## Lightysnake (May 21, 2010)

Yeah, Minato kind of surpasses Bee's Shunshin speed there, especially as there's never been any proof he covered the whole distance to the next mountain in an instantly.

Let's reiterate, shall we? Kakashi is a massive distance away. Minato vanishes, pulls him out of the way of a sword slash, the only point at which he is even visible and then vanishes, crossing the same distance.

So he went there and back in...oh, a second or two? Less, judging by everyone else?

And then he goes there again, got behind the other guy and put a kunai to his neck, all before:

The pack he was holding even hit the ground


And judging by this, he only started moving after it nearly touched it


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2010)

The kunai to the neck is teleportation. 

Hence why he placed the seal on his foot.

None of his students new about the trick as he had to explain it later.


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## Lightysnake (May 21, 2010)

Rin specifically noted it as Minato's speed with a shunshin.

and that doesn't change he did the same darn thing with pure movement right before practically. And came back.

And as you can see here:


Minato is using regular Kunai. Not the special seal Kunai he uses to teleport


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2010)

So? Sasuke specifically said that . Does that make it so? And the seal wasn't on a kunai, it was placed on the fodder's foot when he grabbed Kakashi.


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## Lightysnake (May 21, 2010)

Flying Thundergod also kind of depends on the seals on the kunai. The one he gave him could've just been easily letting him know, y'know, where they WERE.

Rin, who knows her teacher, specifically notes it as shunshin. Manga's against you. Get over it.


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2010)

So then you agree that Karasu Bunshin is a Genjutsu as well as Rin being able to tell the difference between Minato's shunshin and teleportation because she can do that, right? I mean, the manga says so... and Sasuke's Chidori is a Raikiri, actually, because that's what Deidara thought it was.

*Edit:* OH, and SNAP, guess what? The manga also says that Sasuke and Madara are the only ones that can survive against Itachi's Tsukuyomi so I guess that means he would effortlessly own Nagato.



Yep, not-thinking feels pretty good, I can see why you do it. Anyways, that settles the thread. Only Sasuke or Madara can defeat Itachi because the manga says so and the manga says your opinion is wrong. Sorry, bro.


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## Lightysnake (May 21, 2010)

Itachi uses crows with his genjutsu too, what is your point? Sasuke and the manga both seem to agree in those instances, those were genjutsu by showing the flashback.

How does a totally different instance compare anyways?


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2010)

_User(s): Yondaime Hokage
Rank: S
TNG: Ninjutsu
Range: Close, Mid, Far
Type: Supplementary

Description:
"Flight across space and time completed in a flash-like instant!!"
"Swiftness that surpasses Shunshin!"
Yondaime Hokage's jutsu, the reason for his alias "Yellow Flash"! His high-speed movement over long distances...it is really "space-time movement". To activate the jutsu, he needs a "jutsu-shiki" to mark the destination. Yondaime applies a "jutsu-shiki" to weapons such as kunai in advance. It is also possible to leave it in a touched area, and when it is engraved on an enemy's body, it becomes a curse seal with a sentence of death!

Picture text:
*Top: He saves Kakashi and at the same time leaves a "jutsu-shiki" on the enemy's leg.*
Bottom: It is not comparable to the movement speed of Shunshin. The principle is similar to that of Kuchiyose._

So you're wrong. Good day.


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## Lightysnake (May 21, 2010)

Why so I am, I can admit it.

Doesn't change he accomplished going there and back in almost the same amount of time, give or take a second on his own pure speed which is above just about any other speed feat in the manga, funny that


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2010)

Not really, no. It's a good speed feat, but far from the best.


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## Lightysnake (May 21, 2010)

More distance cover than less time than anyone else in the manga.

So, yeah, definitely the best. What's its rival, Itachi's Bunshin feint?


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2010)

Creating clone faster than Sasuke's Sharingan can register is one example of superior speed. Kirābī's shunshin is by and far the best. Ē's feat blows everyone else out of the water. Gai's feat is a similar distance.

Anyways, point was: Base Ē was stated to have reflexes equal to Minato, but pushes past human limits with his Raiton Armor. Senjutsu speed is vastly overrated because it doesn't push reflexes past human limits _if at all._


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## Lightysnake (May 21, 2010)

Except that's:
A. Handseal speed
B. A Tsukuyomi.

Bee's shunshin covered apparently less distance with more time...and which of Gai's feats is that?

And again, Shi was saying the Raikage's reflexes were currently comparable. Comparable is not equal, A. And B. the sheer speed can still be different.


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2010)

Except:
_
A. The Kage Bunshin wasn't formed 20 feet away, & thus it moved.
B. Not a Genjutsu as shuriken were on the floor after the Genjutsu (duh)_

Kirābī covered *much* more distance in the same amount of time.


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## Lightysnake (May 21, 2010)

Selim said:


> Except:
> _
> A. The Kage Bunshin wasn't formed 20 feet away, & thus it moved._


_
Prove it. At what point did he form it? He had plenty of time. 
And a bunshin feint ain't speed. Sorry!




			B. Not a Genjutsu as shuriken were on the floor after the Genjutsu (duh)
		
Click to expand...

_Maybe you don't get it:
The Tsukuyomi happened after the Shuriken spam given neither of them had moved from that spot. When Itachi created the bunshin
What's more likely: that Itachi magically poofed a clone into existence or he was using tsukuyomi there?



> Kirābī covered *much* more distance in the same amount of time.


There is nothing saying Bee did so instantly, sorry.


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2010)

Sasuke said he formed it in the middle of their battle. You were the one who was insistent upon character statements when it suited your deluded little world, right? Am I not allowed to use them?

If you reread the chapter you can see when Tsukuyomi was used. It was right before Itachi flashed in front of his face and kicked him in to the wall, which was after Sasuke's Kinjutsu had been employed.


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## Akimichi Farley (May 22, 2010)

*Spoiler*: __ 





Selim said:


> No, I can't see how the Susano'o arrow would fail to be a showstopper, and I would really appreciate you explaining it to me. You seem levelheaded enough, and I'm feeling quite ignorant disagreeing with you, but you *did* just concede that Jiraiya is screwed, Orochimaru would regenerate, and Tsunade would have to use her trump card against an opening maneuver. All of that takes time, and I don't think Kakashi or Itachi are the type to waste time.
> 
> Additionally, I don't think it's a fair assumption to say that Sasuke's Susano'o can't use more than one arrow, and we have seen him use techniques in conjunction with Susano'o. Amaterasu, Kirin, Chidori Eisō ... there's a lot of messy stuff available to him while Susano'o is shooting these incredibly fast arrows that are impossible for even Kakashi to avoid at a very substantial distance. So we have Sasuke inside this nearly impenetrable war god shooting arrows shooting black fire and lightning who has also been shown to control boss summons with his eyes, and that's just Sasuke.
> 
> ...






As far as the susano arrow goes, there wasn't really more to my reasoning than was in that post, that is Tsunade and Orochimaru could survive a direct hit. Jiraiya more than likely not. The technique has yet to land successfully (to my recollection) so I can't speculate on the kind of physical damage it causes. Sure looks lethal though. At any rate my point was only that Oro/Tsu could survive it, and that it may or may not be dodge-able by all three if they were moving targets (or at least Jiraiya in HM), insinuating that the susano arrow IMO would not be something the fight would substantially hinge on.

By the way, even though in my mind the sannin have the advantage doesn't mean I feel that the fight would be easy in any way, nor is it a reflection whatsoever of how I would stack any of the combatants against each other individually. Team sannin has the capability to deliver battlefield-wide destruction in little time, and a much greater chakra pool both individually and collectively, and that is basically what I base my vote on.

Also, how the hell did Minato get dragged into this? LOL


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## Sadgoob (May 22, 2010)

Well, it did land successfully , but he resurrected. And now that I look at the scan I don't see what good surviving having your chest blown through would do for someone like Tsunade as it would make her immobilized either way. Orochimaru has a "respawn" ability though.

I agree that the Sannin have more destructive techniques and a larger pool of chakra, and I respect your opinion, but the Sharingan users have a far, far superior defense and offensive techniques that are much, much harder for the Sannin to defend against. The Susano'o arrow that potentially screws two of three Sanin in the first few moments of battle is but the tip of the iceberg.

*Edit:* Minato was dragged in by claims that Jiriaya could mimic Ē's feat.


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## Lightysnake (May 22, 2010)

Selim said:


> Sasuke said he formed it in the middle of their battle. You were the one who was insistent upon character statements when it suited your deluded little world, right? Am I not allowed to use them?


I'm sure he thought that. As it was an illusion, the point is moot


> If you reread the chapter you can see when Tsukuyomi was used. It was right before Itachi flashed in front of his face and kicked him in to the wall, which was after Sasuke's Kinjutsu had been employed.


Yes, only little issue with that is both were standing in the exact same spot in front of all the shurikens. Both had moved prior to fight quite a bit and were not in those spots anymore


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## Sadgoob (May 22, 2010)

Wrong. It matches up almost perfectly. But enjoy your denial.


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## Lightysnake (May 22, 2010)

They look so far apart...in basically the same positions as when the Tsukuyomi ends. Staring into one another's eyes...


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## Sadgoob (May 22, 2010)

Yeah, okay, you're in denial. But I can't force feed you the ability to read the manga so this is where our conversations stop.


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## Lightysnake (May 22, 2010)

Why is it whenever someone cites the manga against you, you try to claim it's not true or invent a reason to bow out of the conversation?


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## Sadgoob (May 22, 2010)

Wrong, when people actually cite relevant manga scans I enjoy it but when they're retarded and say that  position and  position don't match up along with the abrupt change in Itachi's speed and power and that  position and  position are somehow closer _specifically to deny a speed feat_... then they're just retarded and not worth my time. The first pair is obviously the correct one.

You're just so wrong it's mindboggling and I can block you with a clean conscience because you're incompetent and have yet to contribute anything even vaguely worthwhile to the discussion.


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## justarandomguy (May 22, 2010)

Akimichi Farley said:


> As far as the susano arrow goes, there wasn't really more to my reasoning than was in that post, that is Tsunade and Orochimaru could survive a direct hit. Jiraiya more than likely not. The technique has yet to land successfully (to my recollection) so I can't speculate on the kind of physical damage it causes. Sure looks lethal though. At any rate my point was only that Oro/Tsu could survive it, and that it may or may not be dodge-able by all three if they were moving targets (or at least Jiraiya in HM), insinuating that the susano arrow IMO would not be something the fight would substantially hinge on.
> 
> By the way, even though in my mind the sannin have the advantage doesn't mean I feel that the fight would be easy in any way, nor is it a reflection whatsoever of how I would stack any of the combatants against each other individually. Team sannin has the capability to deliver battlefield-wide destruction in little time, and a much greater chakra pool both individually and collectively, and that is basically what I base my vote on.
> 
> Also, how the hell did Minato get dragged into this? LOL



you clearly over estimate tsunade and orochimaru's durability. tsunade can maybe survive susano arrow, but she quickly collapses and becomes a useless old bag. for orochimaru to create a new body it takes a massive amount of chakra, and if he does crazy summoning he would not have enough, and if he didn't and had enough, he would quickly run out and become an easy target. kakashi had to use mangekyo to block the susano arrow because he could not dodge it even with sharingan and his execptional abilities. jiraya would die from susano arrow, obviously. to me it seems the sannin have no counter for sasuke's susano, and even if they do they have to face itachi and kakashi who are both at least at sannin level.


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## Jinnobi (May 22, 2010)

justarandomguy said:


> you clearly over estimate tsunade and orochimaru's durability. tsunade can maybe survive susano arrow, but she quickly collapses and becomes a useless old bag. for orochimaru to create a new body it takes a massive amount of chakra, and if he does crazy summoning he would not have enough, and if he didn't and had enough, he would quickly run out and become an easy target. kakashi had to use mangekyo to block the susano arrow because he could not dodge it even with sharingan and his execptional abilities. jiraya would die from susano arrow, obviously. to me it seems the sannin have no counter for sasuke's susano, and even if they do they have to face itachi and kakashi who are both at least at sannin level.



I second this. Many tend to believe that the Sannin have unlimited chakra supplies, but this just isn't true. Jiraiya would more than likely be OHKOd by Susano'o's arrow, and has not shown very impressive reflexes, even in HM. Tsunade may be able to tank one, but two or three would do her in. Orochimaru would be able to tank a few, but at the expensive of draining his chakra nearly completely. 

Remember, this is JUST SASUKE'S SUSANO'O. We have not even began to mention Itachi's more potent Susano'o, or Kakashi's Kumai. In addition, Amaretsu can be used in conjunction with Susano'o to demolish the Sannin. Also consider that the Sannin can't afford to even LOOK at Itachi, because finger jutsu cause them to be disoriented for precious seconds - not to mention Tsukiyomi. 

In addition, team Sharigan are the more intelligent team, with Jiraiya being the weakest link. Sasuke has shown exceptional battle strategy. Itachi needs no fanfare - suffice it to say that Madara himself was amazed with Itachi's intellect AFTER his death. Kakashi is one of the most intelligent characters in the manga.

Not that the Sannin are stupid - Tsunade has a 5 in intellect in the DB but has not shown any real intelligence feat. Orochimaru is a genius, but mostly in the area of creating and learning jutsu.


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## Butt Hole lol (May 22, 2010)

^ i concur, theres no way the sannin are going to be dodging sasuno arrows and kumia which have shown to be almost instanteous.


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## sasuke uciha boy (May 22, 2010)

Team Sharingan stomps

Itachi and Sasuke>Jiraiya
Itachi and Sasuke>Orochimaru
Itachi Sasuke and Kakshi>Tsunade

Itachi potentially solos:
Amaterasu or Susanoo>Jiraiya
Genjutsu>Orochimaru
Everything that he wants>Tsunade


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## Mr.Blonde (May 22, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> In addition, team Sharigan are the more intelligent team, with Jiraiya being the weakest link.  Itachi needs no fanfare - suffice it to say that Madara himself was amazed with Itachi's intellect AFTER his death.


Most of your post was bullshit but this part is just  worthy.

How is Jiraiya the weakest link?If anything,tactically he's the strongest.
His ambush against the 3 Pains in the hallway is the single greatest display
of battle tactics in the manga.Bar none.
In one fell swoop he managed to neutralize the most proficient summoner in the manga,someone against whom all ninjutsu are useless,and someone fast and strong enough to casually block senjutsu powered blows,which have been known to do things like 
99% of the Narutoverse would have difficulties with just one of them.

Show me one example where Itachi has showed anything that even comes close to that?


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## Sanbi (May 22, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> Team Sharingan stomps
> 
> Itachi and Sasuke>Jiraiya
> Itachi and Sasuke>Orochimaru
> Itachi Sasuke and Kakshi>Tsunade


I can do that too 

Jiraiya >/= Itachi
Jiraiya and Oro > Sasuke
Jiraiya, Oro and Tsunade > Kakashi



> Itachi potentially solos:
> Amaterasu or Susanoo>Jiraiya
> Genjutsu>Orochimaru
> Everything that he wants>Tsunade


If you really think Itachi solos, I won't take you serious.


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## sasuke uciha boy (May 22, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> I can do that too
> 
> Jiraiya >/= Itachi
> Jiraiya and Oro > Sasuke
> Jiraiya, Oro and Tsunade > Kakashi



Itachi was shown how he opepanaling arguably the strongest Sannin so he is above Sannins.

Orochimaru was weak on Sharingan so he is weaker than Sasuke.Jiraiya was surprised by Naruto who is weaker or equal To Sasuke so Sasuke>Jiraiya.

Kakashi may be weaker than all but he has  Kamui so he can kill one of them.



Sanbi said:


> If you really think Itachi solos, I won't take you serious.



Itachi defeated Orochimaru who is maybe the strongerst Sannin without trying,I don't see why he would not be able to defeat them.

I mean seriously this battle is too easy.


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## Korruptic (May 22, 2010)

Jiraiya vs Itachi, close call, they're both strong in ninjutsu but Jiraiya can get out of a genjutsu. But I wonder what kind of animal Itachi summons? Oh never mind, probably a huge freaking raven


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## Sanbi (May 22, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> Itachi was shown how he opepanaling arguably the strongest Sannin so he is above Sannins.


Except this is no where near the same scenario as when he beat Oro. Orochimaru was stuck in the mouth of his snake, had no knowledge of Susano and didn't have his Edo Tensei summons with him like he might have here, plus IC Itachi wouldn't bring out Susano as early.

And Oro is not the strongest Sannin, Jiraiya in HM outclasses him in destructive and useful ninjutsu, has way more valuable summons, crushes him in CQC due to superior taijutsu style + Kawazu Kumite, and better speed and strength, plus Magen: Gamarinshō would be the tiebreaker here along with unlimited Stamina. Jiraiya is the superior Sannin when in HM, even with Edo Tensei. The same can be said against Itachi.



> Orochimaru was weak on Sharingan so he is weaker than Sasuke.


Oro was never "weak" to the Sharingan and wouldn't automatically lose to it. Oro can break out of Sasuke's level of genjutsu, so it shouldn't be a problem. Oral Rebirth counters Sasuke's Amaterasu and Susano. Tsukuyomi would be the only real problem and with teammates and Katsuyu to inject chakra into him it wouldn't be a problem. The rest of Sasuke's arsenal is outclassed or countered by Orochimaru's arsenal. 



> Jiraiya was surprised by Naruto who is weaker or equal To Sasuke so Sasuke>Jiraiya.


A>B>C logic doesn't work here. Oh and it is generally accepted here that HM Jiraiya is still superior to SM Naruto until he can control the Kyuubi.



> Kakashi may be weaker than all but he has  Kamui so he can kill one of them.


Read the OP, he can't Kamui their bodies.



> Itachi defeated Orochimaru who is maybe the strongerst Sannin without trying,I don't see why he would not be able to defeat them.


HM Jiraiya is stronger the Oro. He is not beating all three unrestricted. Sennin Mōdo, Edo Tensei, Boss Summons, Yamato Mode and Sōzō Saisei put them above him, especially when working together. The only one who already isn't close to Itachi in power due to feats is Tsunade. However, IMO when she has a proper showing she will be close to his level.



> I mean seriously this battle is too easy.


If you are biased, then yes it is. IMO The Sannin take it High to Extreme difficulty due to being individually superior to each of their respective opponents and due to being able to work together better as a team.


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## justarandomguy (May 22, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Except this is no where near the same scenario as when he beat Oro. Orochimaru was stuck in the mouth of his snake, had no knowledge of Susano and didn't have his Edo Tensei summons with him like he might have here, plus IC Itachi wouldn't bring out Susano as early.
> 
> And Oro is not the strongest Sannin, Jiraiya in HM outclasses him in destructive and useful ninjutsu, has way more valuable summons, crushes him in CQC due to superior taijutsu style + Kawazu Kumite, and better speed and strength, plus Magen: Gamarinshō would be the tiebreaker here along with unlimited Stamina. Jiraiya is the superior Sannin when in HM, even with Edo Tensei. The same can be said against Itachi.
> 
> ...



 oral rebirth takes lots of chakra. orochimaru cannot do edo tensei, boss summon, and rashomon gates and still have enough to perform oral rebirth. the sannin do not have infinte chakra supplies. as has been stated by everyone arguing for team sharingan, tsunade can tank 1 susano arrow with souzou saizen, then she will become a useless old bag.

 sasuke's susano itself is a show stopper, and in addition you have itachi's awesome susano+yata mirror+TB combo, and thats only a part of team sharingans strength. they are awesome tacticans, and all have a wide range of nasty justu aside from the MS.

jiraya is the biggest threat, although he can be dealt with easily. he is probably above kakashi, although there is nothing he can do about kamui. he is around itachi and sasuke's level, although when they play their MS trumps i don't see anything he can do about it.


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## Lightysnake (May 22, 2010)

Orochimaru can do six oral rebirths plus Rashomon Gates without running out of chakra. An issue seems to be given his body's regenerative properties, his body regenerates his chakra. Sasuke with the exact same stamina stat was completely out from one Oral Rebirth.

And Swamp of the Underworld? Handy counter to Susanoo. And 'nothing Jiraiya can do about Kamui?' Kill Kakashi before it comes into play. Or trap Kakashi in a barrier jutsu like he did Animal Realm.


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## Sanbi (May 22, 2010)

justarandomguy said:


> oral rebirth takes lots of chakra.


For Sasuke. Oro spammed it when _his body was rejecting him._ I don't think he will have a problem with it when healthy.



> orochimaru cannot do edo tensei, boss summon, and rashomon gates and still have enough to perform oral rebirth.


Edo Tensei showed no sign of being any bit tiring to Orochimaru's chakra reserves at all, so if he can summon Sanju Rashomon, spam Oral Rebirth, summon lots of snakes while his body is rejecting him, and didn't show any signs of running out of chakra, I don't think his healthy body would have a problem with it.



> the sannin do not have infinte chakra supplies.


Jiraiya technically does with the unlimited Natural Energy being supplied to him.



> as has been stated by everyone arguing for team sharingan, tsunade can tank 1 susano arrow with souzou saizen, then she will become a useless old bag.


She used it the entire Sannin battle, so I don't think she would become a useless old bag the early. If Sasuke targets Tsunade he gets attacked by either Orochimaru or Jiraiya. Plus with full knowledge the Sannin wouldn't even take on the Susano head on like that, they would likely set up a defense like Rashoumon or retreat. 

Sasuke would take some time to activate Susano while not bloodlusted and the Sannin can take advantage of that.



> sasuke's susano itself is a show stopper, and in addition you have itachi's awesome susano+yata mirror+TB combo, and thats only a part of team sharingans strength.


With full knowledge no one would take on Susano head on, the Sannin included. They would either use a jutsu which can't be blocked or use sneak attacks. Whatever their shields aren't defending are exposed to the Sannin and can be taken advantage of. Susano has a weakness and that is sneak attacks, or multiple jutsu which with summons the Sannin can produce.

That Arrow would be dodgeable from afar or it could be blocked. Totsuka no Tsurug has a limited range. So Susano with full knowledge isn't as formidable as people would like to think. 




> they are awesome tacticans, and all have a wide range of nasty justu aside from the MS.


They might be decent tacticians, the Sannin have shown better strategy feats, have more experience and have better synergy. Team Sharingan have never battled together nor have accumulated experience of each other the way the Sannin's have.

Team Sharingan sure has some nasty jutsu _alone_, but together then wouldn't be as effective due to getting into each others way. The Sannin's jutsu have synergy, they cover each other weaknesses plus the Sannin have more jutsu, that have shown better destructiveness and AoE, more usefulness and their summons are more valuable. The Sannin just outclass team Sharingan here.



> jiraya is the biggest threat, although he can be dealt with easily.


Hardly.



> he is probably above kakashi, although there is nothing he can do about kamui.


He is leagues above Kakashi. If you actually read the OP, Kamui is restricted here.



> he is around itachi and sasuke's level,


He is above Sasuke, and around Itachi's level if not above.



> although when they play their MS trumps i don't see anything he can do about it.


Are you seriously trying to imply in this post HM Jiraiya+SM Shima+SM Fukasaku+Bunta+Ken+Hiro is only on Base Itachi and base Sasuke's level?


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## Butt Hole lol (May 22, 2010)

Sasuke=Naruto and naruto has been stated to have surpassed Jiraiya.
kid Itachi wtf pwned Orochimaru. Kakashi is stronger then tsunade based on feats.

Sasuke>Jiraiya
Itachi>Orochimaru 
Kakashi>Tsunade

Team sharingan wins high difficulty imo.


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## Lightysnake (May 22, 2010)

Naruto surpassing Jiraiya means nothing to the movesets and how they match up


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## Sanbi (May 23, 2010)

Party Hat said:


> Sasuke=Naruto and naruto has been stated to have surpassed Jiraiya.


A>B>C logic fails since the characters don't have the same match ups, and Naruto is generally accepted to be weaker then Jiraiya in HM.



> kid Itachi wtf pwned Orochimaru.


If you mean cutting off the hand of a Oro without regenerative properties, no knowledge, and only wanting Itachi's body and not caring about the actual fight. This Oro is much stronger and around Itachi's level.



> Kakashi is stronger then tsunade based on feats.


Not really, with no Kamui Tsunade would tank anything he had with Sōzō Saisei or medical jutsu. Katsuyu would prove to be extremely dangerous and Kakashi would have no way of killing her since she can dodge all range attacks and demolish him in CQC.



> Sasuke>Jiraiya
> Itachi>Orochimaru
> Kakashi>Tsunade


More like
HM Jiraiya > Itachi
Healthy Orochimaru > Sasuke
Tsunade > Kakashi

and as a team
Sannin > Sharingan



> Team sharingan wins high difficulty imo.


It's the opposite for me.


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## sasuke uciha boy (May 23, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Except this is no where near the same scenario as when he beat Oro. Orochimaru was stuck in the mouth of his snake, had no knowledge of Susano and didn't have his Edo Tensei summons with him like he might have here, plus IC Itachi wouldn't bring out Susano as early.



Itachi pwns him with tsukuyomi. He is able to control time and space.



Sanbi said:


> And Oro is not the strongest Sannin, Jiraiya in HM outclasses him in destructive and useful ninjutsu, has way more valuable summons, crushes him in CQC due to superior taijutsu style + Kawazu Kumite, and better speed and strength, plus Magen: Gamarinshō would be the tiebreaker here along with unlimited Stamina. Jiraiya is the superior Sannin when in HM, even with Edo Tensei. The same can be said against Itachi.



And I can do this.Orochimaru uses Edo Tensei to summons Sakumo,Hanzou, shisui or Izuna Uchiha and he onepanaling Jiraiya.



Sanbi said:


> Oro was never "weak" to the Sharingan and wouldn't automatically lose to it. Oro can break out of Sasuke's level of genjutsu, so it shouldn't be a problem. Oral Rebirth counters Sasuke's Amaterasu and Susano. Tsukuyomi would be the only real problem and with teammates and Katsuyu to inject chakra into him it wouldn't be a problem. The rest of Sasuke's arsenal is outclassed or countered by Orochimaru's arsenal.



I don't think that  Orochimaru can summon the gates fast enough to block Susano'o arrows.Kakashi was forced to do Kamui, Danzou could not make single hand seal and both very fast ninja.And Sasuke has Kirin what can one shot him.



Sanbi said:


> A>B>C logic doesn't work here. Oh and it is generally accepted here that HM Jiraiya is still superior to SM Naruto until he can control the Kyuubi.






Naruto has surpassed all of them in both skill and stupidity...

- Lord Fukusaku

Sasuke>=Naruto>Jiraiya



Sanbi said:


> Read the OP, he can't Kamui their bodies



It's not important,he will be able to defeat Tsunade with genjutsu or Raikiri.




Sanbi said:


> HM Jiraiya is stronger the Oro. He is not beating all three unrestricted.



According to the manga he is not.




Sanbi said:


> Sennin Mōdo, Edo Tensei, Boss Summons, Yamato Mode and Sōzō Saisei put them above him, especially when working together. The only one who already isn't close to Itachi in power due to feats is Tsunade. However, IMO when she has a proper showing she will be close to his level.



Genjutsu would be enough for Orochimaru,Susanoo and/or Amaterasu for Jiraiya and whatever he wants will be enough for Tsunade.




Sanbi said:


> If you are biased, then yes it is. IMO The Sannin take it High to Extreme difficulty due to being individually superior to each of their respective opponents and due to being able to work together better as a team..



Team sharingan wins with medium difficulty.
Itachi  maybe solos with Extreme difficulty.If it was without Knowledge he would be able to defeat with medium difficulty.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

I'm not sure you can seriously debate anyone who thinks Itachi could SOLO this, Sanbi


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## sasuke uciha boy (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> I'm not sure you can seriously debate anyone who thinks Itachi could SOLO this, Sanbi



And here is the man who said that Gaara,deidara and Base Jiraiya can defeat Itachi.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Ad Hominem is a logical fallacy, y'know.


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## justarandomguy (May 23, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> For Sasuke. Oro spammed it when _his body was rejecting him._ I don't think he will have a problem with it when healthy.
> 
> 
> Edo Tensei showed no sign of being any bit tiring to Orochimaru's chakra reserves at all, so if he can summon Sanju Rashomon, spam Oral Rebirth, summon lots of snakes while his body is rejecting him, and didn't show any signs of running out of chakra, I don't think his healthy body would have a problem with it.
> ...



jiraya has "infite energy". he has that as long as kakashi doesn't kamui ma and pa, the energy from the surronding area doesn't run out, etc. tsunade did not use it for the whole battle, she collapsed within 5-10 minutes of using it. LOL the sannin would retreat. does that mean they have no susano counter? it does. what strategy feats have the sannin shown? please name a justu unblockable by the susano. 

kakashi is very fast, and he has the sharingan. this implies that if he could not dodge it, it is exetremely fast. it could be dodged if you were far away, though. to get the far, the sannin would have to run away from team sharingan. the sannin have been seperated for 20 years, and it was over that period they devloped their new ninjustu. how come team sharingan's justu "gets in each others way", but team sannins justu "has greater AoE"? TB can easily dispatch boss summons. if it does that, thats a whole lot of chakra wasted. jiraya barely took on the three weakest pains. kakashi took on the two strongest (and summons outweigh the akimichis) and managed to take down 1 of them, despite their near invulernablilty. above sasuke's amaterasu, tsukuyomi, raiton, susano, tactical ability, EMS, etc.? itachi was an anbu squad leader while jiraya was still a genin. itachi has awesome genjustu, feats, susano, and kage bunshin. no, i am stating that they are with MS and EMS.


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## Butt Hole lol (May 23, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> A>B>C logic fails since the characters don't have the same match ups, and Naruto is generally accepted to be weaker then Jiraiya in HM.



Look here dude you can deny manga facts but Naruto>Jiraiya, its canon.
Secondly How is Jiriaya going to dodge sasuno arrows? And no HM isnt going to be fast enough. Judging from the fight with pain Jiraiya isnt any faster then pain, maybe a bit faster but he stills doesnt have the speed to dodge a sasuno arrow based on his dodging/speed feats.



> If you mean cutting off the hand of a Oro without regenerative properties, no knowledge, and only wanting Itachi's body and not caring about the actual fight. This Oro is much stronger and around Itachi's level.



But that was Kid Itachi. Healthy adult Itachi still should win with genjutsu, and maybe becuase of orochimaru's regeneration Itachi may need MS. Once MS is activated orochimaru gets stomped.



> Not really, with no Kamui Tsunade would tank anything he had with Sōzō Saisei or medical jutsu. Katsuyu would prove to be extremely dangerous and Kakashi would have no way of killing her since she can dodge all range attacks and demolish him in CQC.



If she does activate Sozo Saisei and IF she does manage to kill him, she would then run out of chakra and turn old, its a tie at best. But in imo kakashi with full knowledge should win this. Kakashi is much faster + sharingan prediction i dont see how he's going to be hit.


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## Sanbi (May 23, 2010)

Ugh, three rebuttles in a row guys?  Give me a break 

You guys know this is a team battle, because I keep seeing stuff about genjutsu being effective with full knowledge, teammates and summons. Then you guys state how a Sannin doesn't have a counter to "_______", when another Sannin can provide that counter. The Sannin are just a stronger team.



sasuke uciha boy said:


> Itachi pwns him with tsukuyomi. He is able to control time and space.


What makes you think a non-CIS Orochimaru with full knowledge would look at Itachi's eyes like that, and honestly I don't know what you could do to Orochimaru to torture him, but that is just me.




> And I can do this.Orochimaru uses Edo Tensei to summons Sakumo,Hanzou, shisui or Izuna Uchiha and he onepanaling Jiraiya.


None of those ninja have feats or any knowledge of them at all so I don't get how he could lose to them. Especially at the state Orochimaru brought them back in, considering how well the first two Hokages, Hashirama included ,did against an Old Sarutobi. If you really think they would be brought back in prime state Sarutobi would have never won. 

When did Orochimaru get the corpses or the prep to do this while they are battling?

So how would Orochimaru lose against Itachi with those corpses either, if you think he can summon them.




> I don't think that  Orochimaru can summon the gates fast enough to block Susano'o arrows.Kakashi was forced to do Kamui, Danzou could not make single hand seal and both very fast ninja.


He could if he was at a far enough distance, but he could just Oral Rebirth and be fine.



> And Sasuke has Kirin what can one shot him.


So what will the Sanni be doing while Sasuke is prepping Kirin? Picking their noses? Multiple Futons + Rahoumon Gates + Possible Boss Summon Coverage > Kirin





> Naruto has surpassed all of them in both skill and stupidity...
> 
> - Lord Fukusaku
> 
> Sasuke>=Naruto>Jiraiya


A>B>C Logic doesn't work first of all, and becoming more proficient at Sennin Modo isn't the same as surpassing him. Naruto's SM isn't complete either since Ma and Pa can't fuse with him.

Feats disagree with Fuksaku's statement.

Oh and if the manga says that Taka Sasuke surpassed Itachi, but the feats still disagreed, where would you stand.




> It's not important,he will be able to defeat Tsunade with genjutsu or Raikiri.


Teammates, Katsuyu and excellent chakra control > Genjutsu. She wouldn't get hit by Raikiri and if she did it wouldn't be critical with her dodging abilities, and she would either have it healed up or smash Kakashi after regenerating the wound.




> According to the manga he is not.


And feats disagree with this made up scan. 





> Genjutsu would be enough for Orochimaru,Susanoo and/or Amaterasu for Jiraiya and whatever he wants will be enough for Tsunade.


You can make a thread about HM Jiraiya, Edo Orochimaru and Tsunade against Healthy Itachi and see what happens.  Genjutsu has already been proven to not work, Orochimaru has teammates, Jiraiya could seal up Amaterasu, dodge it long enough to get cover, and Susano he wouldn't engage in CQC with it but use a jutsu it can't block or surprise attack it so the Yata Mirror can't block. If he Amaterasu's Jiraiya or focuses on him with Susano, Orochimaru and Tsunade would kill him. If he tried to genjutsu Orochimaru, Jiraiya and Tsunade kill him. Tsunade can handle her own against whatever Itachi throws at her, with Katsuyu and Sōzō Saisei.

Because both Orochimaru and Jiraiya would possibly beat Itachi with those conditions, together along with their teamwork they would stomp him. Tsunade wouldn't even be needed. If she is with Katsuyu and her CQC abilities it wouldn't even be a battle.





> Team sharingan wins with medium difficulty.
> Itachi  maybe solos with Extreme difficulty.If it was without Knowledge he would be able to defeat with medium difficulty.


So you think Itachi solos all three Sannin with no knowledge with medium difficulty.  He would either lose or barely beat both Edo Orochimaru and HM Jiraiya, together they stomp him, with Tsunade they rapestomp.



justarandomguy said:


> jiraya has "infite energy".


Unless you think Nature would run out of energy 



> he has that as long as kakashi doesn't kamui ma and pa, the energy from the surronding area doesn't run out, etc.


The Ni Dai Sennin fused with Jiraiya's body and are considered apart of it.



> tsunade did not use it for the whole battle, she collapsed within 5-10 minutes of using it.


She used it from the Boss Summoning onward until it ran out after Oro left.



> LOL the sannin would retreat. does that mean they have no susano counter?


That means it would be foolish to engage against Susano in direct combat, since that puts you in great danger. They could surprise attack it, use multiple jutsu, which Susano cannot block all of, or simply use a jutsu it can't block.



> what strategy feats have the sannin shown?


Please. Orochimaru planned the entire Sound Invasion which is more strategy then Team Sharingan has ever shown. Jiraiya set up his trap against the Pain Rikudo, which brilliantly took advantage of what little he knew about them. And Tsunade set up a strategy against Deva Realm,. Imagine what happens when they put there heads together. 



> please name a justu unblockable by the susano.


A sound genjutsu, Magen Gamarinshou. Unless Susano can block out sound too, then they use that as a diversion to attack from behind.

Yeah that isn't happening with full knowledge.



> kakashi is very fast, and he has the sharingan. this implies that if he could not dodge it, it is exetremely fast.


Yeah and with full knowledge of that they would retreat, or become a moving target which the Susano can't hit due to no homing abilities. Sanju Rashoumon > Susano Arrow. They have multiple ways to avoid or tank that.



> it could be dodged if you were far away, though.


That is my point.



> to get the far, the sannin would have to run away from team sharingan.


Or set up a diversion to get away like summons or Sanju Rashoumon.



> the sannin have been seperated for 20 years, and it was over that period they devloped their new ninjustu.


Like what? Oro has all of his snake jutsu still, the only new jutsu could possibly be the forbidden ones he doesn't use in combat. Jiraiya has Sennin Modo which enhances his old jutsu, adding no real new jutsu but just adding to the old ones. Tsunade only has Sōzō Saisei which shouldn't be that big.

Really they added no new jutsu that they us in combat, and there synergy still stands.



> how come team sharingan's justu "gets in each others way", but team sannins justu "has greater AoE"?


The Sannins can add to each others jutsu, like a Katon + Futon, or using binding snakes + Cho Oodama Rasengan and multiple others like KBs + Jiraiya's Shadow Thing. Team Sharingan's jutsu are too similar and don't allow many combinations and synergy. With no battle experience together they aren't in a good spot. Suitons don't go well with Katons, etc.



> TB can easily dispatch boss summons.


Not when out of range. Or when split up. Manda would be the only one susceptible to that, and if Itachi focuses on the summons then the actual ninjas can easily take advantage of that. 

That is the whole point of summons.



> if it does that, thats a whole lot of chakra wasted


Not really sincetboss summons don't take that much out of the Sannin plus they would get hits on against Itachi.

. 





> jiraya barely took on the three weakest pains.
> kakashi took on the two strongest (and summons outweigh the akimichis) and managed to take down 1 of them, despite their near invulernablilty.


Kakashi died against Deva and Asura with back up, and the Realms weren't even at full strength. No Chibaku Tensei, Chō Shinra Tensei, or Head Laser. Jiraiya took on Animal, HGR and Human Realm with no back-up and killed all three when they didn't have any restrictions.

Nice way to bend the situation to your benefit though. 

Oh and if you want to compare two ninja use feats and not fights. Feats wise Jiraiya beats him in every field.


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## Sanbi (May 23, 2010)

> above sasuke's amaterasu, tsukuyomi, raiton, susano, tactical ability, EMS, etc.?


Yep. He doesn't handle himself well enough when IC as seen by charging head first against the Raikage. He could outrun Amaterasu long enough to find cover. Jiraiya has summons and teammates to break him out of genjutsu, and he would look there in the first place. His Raiton would be useless with Oro and Shima's Futon along with Jiraiya being able to dodge any assaults with Raiton. His tactical ability is squat when compared to Jiraiya's along with Shima and Fuksaku's. Susano is countered as a team with the other Sannin, otherwise he could either put Sasuke in genjutsu or destroy Susano.

Unlike Team Sharingan, the Sannin can use each other to gain an advantage in battle since they are teammates.

I'm not counting EMS with no knowledge about it, but when he gains control over EMS and Naruto controls the Kyuubi, then I will think  they have surpassed Itachi and Jiraiya.



> itachi was an anbu squad leader while jiraya was still a genin.


Jiraiya has fought in two great ninja wars, was taking on S-Rank Missions before Itachi was even born, and was training future Hokages beofre he was born. Jiraiya has more experience.



> itachi has awesome genjustu, feats, susano, and kage bunshin.


Jiraiya has full knowledge, summon and teammates for genjutsu, Jiraiya has his own Kage Binshins and more stamina. Susano isn't deadly when out of range.



> no, i am stating that they are with MS and EMS.


Sasuke isn't but Itachi is.



Party Hat said:


> Look here dude you can deny manga facts but Naruto>Jiraiya, its canon.


If you want to ignore feats, then yes you are right.



> Secondly How is Jiriaya going to dodge sasuno arrows?


He won't engage against Susano head on with full knowledge. That arrow is dodge-able from afar, and instead of battling the Susano head on he would take cover, likely behind the Rashoumon Gates.



> And no HM isnt going to be fast enough. Judging from the fight with pain Jiraiya isnt any faster then pain, maybe a bit faster but he stills doesnt have the speed to dodge a sasuno arrow based on his dodging/speed feats.


From afar he can, and with cover it won't be a problem




> But that was Kid Itachi. Healthy adult Itachi still should win with genjutsu, and maybe becuase of orochimaru's regeneration Itachi may need MS. Once MS is activated orochimaru gets stomped.


 With teammates and Katsuyu, along with his own genjutsu breaking abilities, Orochimaru would be fine. Oro has a counter to all of Itachi's MS jutsu, with Edo Tensei Orochimaru could possibly win, or lose. But then that leaves Jiraiya winning against Sasuke and Tsunade beating Kakashi and then they win anyway. Regardless you are making this seem like it is a bunch of 1v1 matches. Oro probably would get beaten if it was him 1v1 vs Itachi, but with a team to aid him he is fine against all of his jutsu.

This is a team battle you know, and the Sannin are a stronger team.




> If she does activate Sozo Saisei and IF she does manage to kill him, she would then run out of chakra and turn old, its a tie at best.


She has a while before she turns old and that can make the difference, but really with Katsuyu, IMO she doesn't need Sozo Saisei with no Kamui.



> But in imo kakashi with full knowledge should win this. Kakashi is much faster + sharingan prediction i dont see how he's going to be hit.


It's simple, Katsuyu would spit acid he dodges, then Tsunade comes, he tries to hit her she dodges and smashes him in the face. 

With her dodging capabilities, I don't see how either would hit each other if it was 1v1 but with Katsuyu she doesn't have to worry about that.


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## daschysta (May 23, 2010)

Tsunade was hit multiple times by kabuto, she is going to need souzou saizei against kakashi. That is at the very least. If kakashi had kamui, and wasn't gimped by the lack of it she would be stomped horribly. Even without it he stands a very good chance against her. I like how you are giving her feats that she has not even begun to demonstrate. I don't like tsunade battles because the one battle she was in she looked like shit due to her hemophobia, and being out of practice, but you also cannot just project on to her levels of skill vastly above what she has shown in the manga. Especially to say that she would not need souzou sazei? If she was tagged so many times by kabuto, she is going to eat a raikiri to the vitals eventually.

Sanbi what do you think she can do against raiton kage bunshin? With her current speed feats she is not landing a hit on kakashi, unless he underestimates her, thinking she is defeated (with no knowledge of her seal) or if he allows her to hit a bunshin as a set up for some trap. Furthermore she is a hothead, and characters like that are easily exploited by nin who can keep their cool like kakashi.

What the hell feats do you have from tsunade that give you the impression she will hit kakashi once if he is not a RKB?, because smashy smashy won't cut it, and kakashi is not likely to underestimate her, like the single time she could actually hit kabuto who is far this kakashi's inferior in speed and taijutsu.

Her best speed feats were, seemingly almost being speedblitzed by asura, until naruto saved her. Being easily outmanuevered by kabuto, dodging each of her strikes until he got cocky. Oh and yeah, she did blitz shizune, who was also like 2 paneled by kabuto.

Do I think she is this weak anymore? no, but do I think she is on a whole other level than that? I can't rightfully say until she actually has feats. I do however, know that kakashi is a entire level above part one kabuto in combat in part two.

He has all the tools to stop her.

Give me a good counter she has for RKB, souzou saizei won't work on it, as souzou just speeds up cellular regeneration, and RKB is not inflicting wounds to be regenerated from. Perhaps you think that she will grow her head back, and maybe she will, but if she has to she sure as hell won't be able to keep it up long, as shizune stated cells can only regenerate a certain amount of times.

If she were stunned by RKB (common sense says she would be eventually) then a stealth raikiri on jiraiya who will have his hands full tips this battle chronicly in favor of team sharingan.

Amaterasu is far to dangerous to summons as well, and sasuke can spam it. Too much chakra is not even necessary to do it, as he can mainipulate the same amaterasu flame as speeds faster than a summon can possibly move (unless you believe they are as fast as the raikage). Summons are shit in the face of sasuke, and amaterasu. And unfortunately the sannin aren't all they are cut out to be without them. 

Keep in mind that sasuke and itachi also have the ability to put boss summons under genjutsu (at least long enough to cause them to pause, leaving them open for amaterasu) Why has this been ignored in the battle so far? Yes the sannin can release the summons from genjutsu once they realize that they are under one, but by that time it is GG amaterasu.

Manda shedding his skin won't help against flames that will already have begun to burn his internals, as it is not like oral rebirth.

This is not an easy battle, but the advantage MS techs and genjutsu have against summons tips it pretty clearly in favor or sasitakaka.

If OP didn't nerf kakashi this would be a battle that wasn't that difficult, as ma or pa would be warped soon after they were summoned, making jiraiya easy pickings for itachi, that or tsunade would be nullified early, missing her head.


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## Daenerys Stormborn (May 23, 2010)

Hmm...I don't think the Sharingan makes people immune to Frog Song since that jutsu depends on hearing rather than sight.  (In other words, being able to _see_ through illusions won't help you against it.)  OTOH, it takes a while to set up--IIRC, Jiraiya had to get away from Pain and into those tunnels so that Ma and Pa could have time to get their voices in sync while Pain was looking for them.  Whereas Itachi and Sasuke can literally kill someone in the time it takes to glance at the target.

I think this battle comes down to "Who can get their nigh-unbeatable jutsu activated first?", in which case Team Sharingan has a definite advantage and probably wins.


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## daschysta (May 23, 2010)

Why would IC jiraiya use frog song. It would effect his allies too. He would never do that to tsunade. or orochimaru if they were back on a team.

Don't underestimate the storm clouds that are going to be formed by not one, but two uchiha using amaterasu as well. A godly kirin will come into play eventually.

Tsunade gets overrated just because of the team she was a part of, thats like saying that shit raiga, and cool zabuza are approximately equals to kisame just because they were all members of seven swordsman of the mist.

Until new feats put her at the level of the other two, she is vastly below them in combat. Just as valuable, but when she is responsible for direct combat she loses much of her effectiveness, which is as the best medic in the world.


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## Mr.Blonde (May 23, 2010)

justarandomguy said:


> itachi was an anbu squad leader while jiraya was still a genin.


That's why I love this section


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## daschysta (May 23, 2010)

He's talking about at their respective ages, which is true.


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## Mr.Blonde (May 23, 2010)

daschysta said:


> He's talking about at their respective ages, which is true.


Well the databook says Jiraiya became a Genin at 6 years old.I hardly believe the Sannin took 6 years to become Chuunin.Its highly probable the Sannin became Chuunin before they were 10 years old,which is when Itachi became one.

Regardless,even if Jiraiya was still a genin at 12 years old,that doesn't have any relevance.People move at their own pace.Look at Sasuke.Until he was 12 years old he was pathetic.In 3 years his power skyrocketed until he finally surpassed Itachi.
***

Alot of people who are using the Itachi was ANBU captain at 13 years old hype are ignoring two things:

1)Konoha was rebuilding after the 3rd ninja war ant the Kyuubi invasion,so ninja were probably promoted alot faster to fill the ranks.

2)Itachi's entry into ANBU was probably facilitated by both the Uchiha and Danzou/other higher-ups in their bids to destroy one another.

Also note that despite being an ANBU captain,Itachi had a grand total of 1(!) S-Rank mission.Which was probably the Uchiha massacre.Compare that with Jiraiya's 138 S rank missions....


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## Sanbi (May 23, 2010)

You really think Team Sannin would just let them set up Kirin, and when was it IC for Sasuke to use Kirin anyway? The sotrm clouds have a limited range and so does Kirin.



daschysta said:


> Tsunade was hit multiple times by kabuto, she is going to need souzou saizei against kakashi.


Yet she wasn't in a state to fight, yes still didn't need Sozo Saisei against Kabuto. She isn't getting hit by Kakashi if she is in the state she was against Pain, if she does she just heals.



> That is at the very least. If kakashi had kamui, and wasn't gimped by the lack of it she would be stomped horribly.


Kakashi isn't stomping Tsunade even with Kamui, when IC. But we aren't talking about that.



> Even without it he stands a very good chance against her.


Yes she would need high to extreme difficulty against her.



> I like how you are giving her feats that she has not even begun to demonstrate.


Like what exactly? Smashing people's faces in? Or dodging Raikiri.



> I don't like tsunade battles because the one battle she was in she looked like shit due to her hemophobia, and being out of practice, but you also cannot just project on to her levels of skill vastly above what she has shown in the manga.


How is beating Kakashi when in shape vastly above what was shown in the manga? Kabuto lost against her when she wasn't in shape and he was close to Kakashi's level. Kakashi only added a few jutsu since then so I don't think it would be that different, especially with Katsuyu. 



> Especially to say that she would not need souzou sazei? If she was tagged so many times by kabuto, she is going to eat a raikiri to the vitals eventually.


Except she hasn't battled for 20+years, tired out, and still was able to tag Kabuto, and now she is in shape, not tired and will also summon Katsuyu. Kakashi isn't tagging her without Katsuyu and herself tagging him as well and we know who will survive those encounters.



> Sanbi what do you think she can do against raiton kage bunshin?


How is he supposed to summon that without being obvious. Even if she does hit one she still has her teammates and summons to take care of her until she is fine, which shouldn't be that long.



> With her current speed feats she is not landing a hit on kakashi, unless he underestimates her, thinking she is defeated (with no knowledge of her seal) or if he allows her to hit a bunshin as a set up for some trap.


With Katsuyu to set up traps and being there, and being in shape he isn't tagging her either.



> Furthermore she is a hothead, and characters like that are easily exploited by nin who can keep their cool like kakashi.


We saw how well that went for Kabuto who is just as coolheaded as Kakashi.



> What the hell feats do you have from tsunade that give you the impression she will hit kakashi once if he is not a RKB?


The one where she hit Kabuto after having muscles severed, being out of shape for 20+ years, and being worn out. Especially with Katsuyu to aid in the dodging.

, 





> because smashy smashy won't cut it


,
It will when it connect against Kakashi.



> and kakashi is not likely to underestimate her, like the single time she could actually hit kabuto who is far this kakashi's inferior in speed and taijutsu.


Really because Kakashi underestimated Kakuzu when he hit him, and Tsunade won't get hit either.



> Her best speed feats were, seemingly almost being speedblitzed by asura, until naruto saved her.


Yeah, except that was after exhausting all of her chakra protecting the village.


> Being easily outmanuevered by kabuto, dodging each of her strikes until he got cocky. Oh and yeah, she did blitz shizune, who was also like 2 paneled by kabuto.


I don't have time to explain this to you in one post so please read this:  



> Do I think she is this weak anymore? no, but do I think she is on a whole other level than that? I can't rightfully say until she actually has feats. I do however, know that kakashi is a entire level above part one kabuto in combat in part two.


All of her physical stats are likely much higher then what they were against Kabuto, with Katsuyu it isn't a challenge.



> He has all the tools to stop her.


His ninjutsu will be useless via dodging, or Katsuyu. She, her teammates or a summon will break her out of his genjutsu and they would likely be even in taijutsu not landing hits on each other given their dodging talents. Katsuyu makes the difference here with her acid. RKB could be dangerous but with knowledge and Katsuyu she would be fine.



> Give me a good counter she has for RKB, souzou saizei won't work on it, as souzou just speeds up cellular regeneration, and RKB is not inflicting wounds to be regenerated from.


Full knowledge on it, teammates to protect her and summons to protect her.



> Perhaps you think that she will grow her head back, and maybe she will, but if she has to she sure as hell won't be able to keep it up long, as shizune stated cells can only regenerate a certain amount of times.


Why should she even need it with Katsuyu to protect her and allow her to get hits.



> If she were stunned by RKB (common sense says she would be eventually) then a stealth raikiri on jiraiya who will have his hands full tips this battle chronicly in favor of team sharingan.


What common sense is this, biased one? With full knowledge and Katsuyu that isn't happening. 

We saw how good a sneak attack worked on Jiraiya in the Pain battle amirite. Especially with more then one summon out, Katsuyu can transfer knowledge and Fukasaku and Shima are great summons.



> Amaterasu is far to dangerous to summons as well, and sasuke can spam it.


And then become blind/run out of chakra when he didn't even kill the ninjas. And guess what? When Sasuke focuses on the summons the ninjas kill him.



> Too much chakra is not even necessary to do it, as he can mainipulate the same amaterasu flame as speeds faster than a summon can possibly move (unless you believe they are as fast as the raikage).


All the summons have counters to it. Katsuyu can split/is too small/many. Manda can shed skin. Gamabunta has a giant suiton. Ma and Pa have their own Katons/Futons/Oil and H Jiraiya can evade Amaterasu long wnough to find cover. Tsunade has Katsuyu. Oro has Oral Rebirth.

Oh and he will need to waste alot of chakra in order to cover all of a boss summon. And if he does focus on the summon the other summons and ninjas come for him.



> Summons are shit in the face of sasuke, and amaterasu. And unfortunately the sannin aren't all they are cut out to be without them.


Whatever you say....



> Keep in mind that sasuke and itachi also have the ability to put boss summons under genjutsu (at least long enough to cause them to pause, leaving them open for amaterasu)


Not with full knowledge and partners to break them out. And guess what happens when they focus on the summons? They die to the other summons and ninjas. And everyone on the battle field has at leat one counter to Amaterasu with knowledge.



> Why has this been ignored in the battle so far? Yes the sannin can release the summons from genjutsu once they realize that they are under one, but by that time it is GG amaterasu.


You do know what KBs are, right?

Oh and once they focus on the summons GG Uchiha.



> Manda shedding his skin won't help against flames that will already have begun to burn his internals, as it is not like oral rebirth.


How does Amaterasu burn his internals?  He sheds his skin, like any other skin, it is like the fodder Samurai and his armor.



> This is not an easy battle, but the advantage MS techs and genjutsu have against summons tips it pretty clearly in favor or sasitakaka.


Once they focus on the summons it shifts in favor of the Sannin since they can't focus on trying to kill multiple small summons, multiple huge summons and three ninjas all at the same time without dying.



> If OP didn't nerf kakashi this would be a battle that wasn't that difficult, as ma or pa would be warped soon after they were summoned, making jiraiya easy pickings for itachi, that or tsunade would be nullified early, missing her head.


If OP let Oro have Edo Tensei it would be even easier to choose assuming he doesn't get Edo.


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## sasuke uciha boy (May 23, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> What makes you think a non-CIS Orochimaru with full knowledge would look at Itachi's eyes like that, and honestly I don't know what you could do to Orochimaru to torture him, but that is just me.



Well you can try to fight someone without looking in his eyes,and tell me what will you do.

I wish you I wish you luck




> None of those ninja have feats or any knowledge of them at all so I don't get how he could lose to them. Especially at the state Orochimaru brought them back in, considering how well the first two Hokages, Hashirama included ,did against an Old Sarutobi. If you really think they would be brought back in prime state Sarutobi would have never won.



-Hanzou defeated all 3 Sannins                                       
-Sakumo was more skilled than all 3 sannins                                           -Izuna was on Madara prime level

From what we know this is rapestomp.
And we saw everything from the kages.Hashirama without bijuu is on that level-nothing more.



> So how would Orochimaru lose against Itachi with those corpses either, if you think he can summon them.



Totsuka Sword.




> He could if he was at a far enough distance, but he could just Oral Rebirth and be fine.



Oro can't regenerate forever.He would be defeated by Sasuke?s MS Hax.



> So what will the Sanni be doing while Sasuke is prepping Kirin? Picking their noses? Multiple Futons + Rahoumon Gates + Possible Boss Summon Coverage > Kirin



Sasuke don?t must to  wait to much to prepare Kirin:




how exactly would a Rashomon Gate defend against Kirin?And when Orochimaru used  Fuutons?Summonings get owned By Susanoo or Amaterasu.



> A>B>C Logic doesn't work first of all, and becoming more proficient at Sennin Modo isn't the same as surpassing him. Naruto's SM isn't complete either since Ma and Pa can't fuse with him.
> 
> Feats disagree with Fuksaku's statement.



Come on now.What feats?Naruto defeated 6 path,Jiraiya just 3. Pain himself said that Naruto is the strongest that he ever fought:



Naruto>Jiraiya



> Oh and if the manga says that Taka Sasuke surpassed Itachi, but the feats still disagreed, where wouldyou stand.



Nope the maga never said that Sasuke surprised the King. 



> Teammates, Katsuyu and excellent chakra control > Genjutsu. She wouldn't get hit by Raikiri and if she did it wouldn't be critical with her dodging abilities, and she would either have it healed up or smash Kakashi after regenerating the wound.



 Kakashi  just blitz her and kills her with Chidori.



> And feats disagree with this made up scan.



Orochimaru defeated Jiraiya twice.
Sandaime said that shinobi that can defeat Oro doesn't exist in Konoha.
Anko wanted dead people(Minato) to come and fight Orochimaru and Jiraiya was a live.

By feats: Oro>J-man.



> You can make a thread about HM Jiraiya, Edo Orochimaru and Tsunade against Healthy Itachi and see what happens.  Genjutsu has already been proven to not work, Orochimaru has teammates, Jiraiya could seal up Amaterasu, dodge it long enough to get cover, and Susano he wouldn't engage in CQC with it but use a jutsu it can't block or surprise attack it so the Yata Mirror can't block. If he Amaterasu's Jiraiya or focuses on him with Susano, Orochimaru and Tsunade would kill him. If he tried to genjutsu Orochimaru, Jiraiya and Tsunade kill him. Tsunade can handle her own against whatever Itachi throws at her, with Katsuyu and Sōzō Saisei.



Where was proved that Genjutsu don?t work. Itachi just kills Oro with tsukuyomi where he can controll time and space or Orochimaru will just ran away when he will see Itachi?s face.Tsunade get stomped by exploding clone and Itachi uses Amaterasu to kill Jiraiya in the end.




> So you think Itachi solos all three Sannin with no knowledge with medium difficulty.  He would either lose or barely beat both Edo Orochimaru and HM Jiraiya, together they stomp him, with Tsunade they rapestomp.



Nope Itachi  with full knowledge and Sannins without knowledge-Itachi solos.

The Sannins with full knowledge  and Itachi without it-The sannins will win but Itachi will kill 2 of tham.


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## daschysta (May 23, 2010)

Wait, so if tsunade was it by raiton bunshin, she survives long enough for a teammate to notice she is in trouble and save her. yet if an uchiha genjutsu's a boss summon (the smaller ones are far less of a threat sans ma and pa), which is instantaneous they are owned?

Kakashi has more than enough time to form kage bunshin or RKB, he was able to form it against itachi go underground with perfect timing and replace himself all before a very fast katon reach his location which was no more than 30 feet away. He either switches using cover from tsunade's rubble that her fighting style leaves or switches behind a doton wall.

You are still the one that is giving tsunade feats she doesn't have. I told you that I agreed with you that she would be more dangerous and more fit, but for you to assume that it is enough to take on most kage level fighters in combat and win, is a bit of a leap of faith. Kakashi will not underestimate tsunade like kabuto because he has full knowledge of what she can do. Difference is kakashi has the speed to avoid all of tsunades attacks, while tsunade does not. What is the rubbish about underestimating kakuzu? Do you think he does that if he had ANY idea he had 5 lives. Kakuzu was done in one blitz if kakashi had knowledge, and in another if he didn't have to reveal he was still alive to save chuunin from raiton: gian. If anything that just shows the stealth and speed of kakashi, as kakuzu was completely unable to detect his presence despite running at his with an attack that sounds like 1000 mothafuckin' birds. If kakashi gives tsunade the split for even a moment, that could happen to jiraiya as well. or at least one of the sages on his arms.

And no it is fanfic to believe she can just heal without souzou saizei from a raikiri to the chest, she flatout stated that it was mpossible with regular ninjutsu to heal destroyed organs, isn't that why dan died? She developed souzou saizei for this very reason. Problem is with knowledge it will be her head that is hit, and she cannot heal from a destroyed brain.

Tsunade has not shown herself to be very tactical in battle, while she is a genius in the medical room, she cannot afford to not try to hit kakashi whenever she can, she has no other way to win, and when she does it will be a rkb/ kb which it always is the first time around iwth kakashi, RKB and the fight is over for tsunade, She cannot heal herself while she is paralyzed, and katsuyu has not shown the ability to heal others unless tsunade is channeling her own chakra into her.

what does kage bushin have to do with getting a boss summon out of genjutsu? Is the boss summon a kage bunshin?

amaterasu is inconsistant, but we know that it can instantly burn a large hole on the insides of a frog that breathes fire, if either uchiha focused the flame it will kill a summon, it does not even need to be used multiple times, as sasuke can just manipulate the same flame. Any counter that a boss summon uses would be too late, as it would be under genjutsu long enough to be fatally burnt.

And wtf is this "not allow kirin to be set up"

how the hell are they going to stop it? Is jiraiya going to pull out his sealing scroll mid fight and magically seal an entire tempest of katon? they can't even stop sasuke from activating it, as he can just retreat into the air.

Sasuke's kirin during the itachi fight was stated to be so strong becuase of the additional heat from itachi's amaterasu. This time there is two amaterasu being used, the kirin will be even more grand. And before you suggest the sannin actually dodging lightning just stop yourself, becuase it is not possible, anything short of already being a bunshin, or having susanoo/ some other ultimate defense, awesome durability won't cut it imo.

The best chance the sannin have at victory here is frog song, which jiraiya will not use IC as it would effect his teammates, combined witht he fact jiraiya likely won't be the last one standing due to having the least durability on his team, it probably will not even be used.

This is all with assuming oro does not get owned by sharingan genjutsu, as he always seems to by itachi or sasuke. He had full knowledge the other times as well. he isn't as weak as he seems against itachi, but the fact that he was one paneled by itachi not once, but twice say something about how vastly superior itachi is in head to head. I don't think jiraiya is that much more powerful than orochimaru. imo.

Edo tensei is different from kamui, as edo tensei is much more situational, and requires prep. Itachi would own that technique with totsuka anyway, which would seal the zombies. it is a much more acceptable ban that kamui, which kakashi can always use and is his trump card, which all the other fighters in this battle are allowed to use. Not much can survive the combo of RKB followed up by instant kamui. veeery few people.

Difficult battle, but advantage sharingan


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

daschysta said:


> Why would IC jiraiya use frog song. It would effect his allies too. He would never do that to tsunade. or orochimaru if they were back on a team.
> 
> Don't underestimate the storm clouds that are going to be formed by not one, but two uchiha using amaterasu as well. A godly kirin will come into play eventually.


So that's...how much of their chakra? How're they even gonna set it up? Jiraiya can just use Yomi Numa to take Sasuke out of the equation when he stands still to harness it.

And I think Jiraiya can briefly, BRIEFLY paralyze Tsunade and Orochimaru and then wake them up



> Tsunade gets overrated just because of the team she was a part of, thats like saying that shit raiga, and cool zabuza are approximately equals to kisame just because they were all members of seven swordsman of the mist.


[
It's because the *Sannin as a whole* get a lot of hype. Tsunade was stated by Jiraiya to also be unbeatable in battle



> Until new feats put her at the level of the other two, she is vastly below them in combat. Just as valuable, but when she is responsible for direct combat she loses much of her effectiveness, which is as the best medic in the world.


Yet another who fails to understand what Tsunade can do.


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## daschysta (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> So that's...how much of their chakra? How're they even gonna set it up? Jiraiya can just use Yomi Numa to take Sasuke out of the equation when he stands still to harness it.
> 
> And I think Jiraiya can briefly, BRIEFLY paralyze Tsunade and Orochimaru and then wake them up
> 
> ...



You act as if sasuke cannot fly in the air and use it. Chidori nagashi would allow sasuke to escape from the swamp, which is formed with doton chakra which will be nullified by sasuke's raiton chakra. There is nothing stopping kirin from being used. The clouds will form during hte battle as amaterasu and other katon's are used.

your frog song hypothesis is conjecture. Yes I believe it is possible, but know that jiraiya at the very least will not want to take that risk unless he absolutely has to.

Jiraiya said tsunade was unbeatable in battle. And the we saw her fight, and she seemed very beatable. You really think that it is impossible to beat her in battle? Really? I know tsunade is underrated, but to put her at the same level in combat as her peers is wrong. It is not her forte, medical jutsu is, nothing points to her being as strong as the other sannin, and yes, kakashi, in battle. She was about to be blitzed by just asura. She was a bit tired from healing I realized, but still, at some point feats or at least strong indications based on other actions need to be shown to place her at a level SO much higher than what she has shown.

I like tsunade, look through my posting history, I have passionately defended her against haters in the past, like in the thread rating the kage's, where people were putting mizu and tsuchi above her. But she is outmatched in this particular battle.

In battles against much faster opponents, with doujutsu that specializes in predicting movements, movements that in tsunades case are ALREADY quite pedestrian and dodgeable, it is hard for me that she will land a hit on any of team sharingan that is not formed by an opening either generated by one of her teammates, or by deception on her part, deception that won't work as with full knowledge the other team is well aware of how much damage she can take. She would be much more usefull if she had demonstated kage bunshin, but she hasn't and her arsenal is too limited to overcome even kakashi, who is slightly weaker than sasuke and about half a tier lower than itachi.

Do you honestly believe her strikes will land on any of the other team without special circumstances?


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

daschysta said:


> You act as if sasuke cannot fly in the air and use it. Chidori nagashi would allow sasuke to escape from the swamp, which is formed with doton chakra which will be nullified by sasuke's raiton chakra. There is nothing stopping kirin from being used. The clouds will form during hte battle as amaterasu and other katon's are used.


How does a Nagashi allow him to escape? Does he know it's Doton somehow? Does it cancel out the swamp in a way that returns Sasuke to the surface? Or will it just harden, still leaving him stuck in it? Let alone he can also use a Barrier jutsu to drop Sasuke, Orochimaru can just use a snake  to kill the hawk...




> your frog song hypothesis is conjecture. Yes I believe it is possible, but know that jiraiya at the very least will not want to take that risk unless he absolutely has to.


Yeah, against these three, that's not 'has to.' Pull the other one


> Jiraiya said tsunade was unbeatable in battle. And the we saw her fight, and she seemed very beatable. You really think that it is impossible to beat her in battle? Really? I know tsunade is underrated, but to put her at the same level in combat as her peers is wrong. It is not her forte, medical jutsu is, nothing points to her being as strong as the other sannin, and yes, kakashi, in battle. She was about to be blitzed by just asura. She was a bit tired from healing I realized, but still, at some point feats or at least strong indications based on other actions need to be shown to place her at a level SO much higher than what she has shown.


"She was beatable in battle! Sure, she'd been getting drunk every night for over a decade, hadn't fought or used jutsu in that long, had a crippling phobia her opponent took advantage of, had an opponent who made her run a huge distance first before he ate a soldier pill and who had knowledge on her while she was ignorant....and she STILL managed to do damn well!

And I love how you just outright resorted to falsehoods there. 'A bit' tired from healing *the entire fucking village?* Newsflash: People who are 'a bit' tired? They don't fall into *fucking comas* after a few minutes. Wow, an out of chakra Tsunade barely able to stay alive couldn't handle one of Pain's strongest and fastest bodies.



> I like tsunade, look through my posting history, I have passionately defended her against haters in the past, like in the thread rating the kage's, where people were putting mizu and tsuchi above her. But she is outmatched in this particular battle.


Yeah, I just notice that seems to end the absolute second she's against a Sharingan user. 



> In battles against much faster opponents, with doujutsu that specializes in predicting movements, movements that in tsunades case are ALREADY quite pedestrian and dodgeable, it is hard for me that she will land a hit on any of team sharingan that is not formed by an opening either generated by one of her teammates, or by deception on her part, deception that won't work as with full knowledge the other team is well aware of how much damage she can take. She would be much more usefull if she had demonstated kage bunshin, but she hasn't and her arsenal is too limited to overcome even kakashi, who is slightly weaker than sasuke and about half a tier lower than itachi.


She is? Prove it. She may have been in part 1, no reason to believe she's not stronger now. And Kakashi has nothing short of Kamui to put her down in one hit, she's a better CQC fighter and need one glancing blow to kill him. And oh yeah, Katsuyu



> Do you honestly believe her strikes will land on any of the other team without special circumstances?


If only she had another two S-class ninja who were absolute geniuses and powerhouses to help her out


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## Sanbi (May 23, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> Well you can try to fight someone without looking in his eyes,and tell me what will you do.
> 
> I wish you I wish you luck


Actually I know a better way, how about he fights with his snakes and ninjutsu instead of taijutsu which is the only one you really need to look at his eyes. He can just constantly inject chakra into his snakes so they are genjutsu immune, or use large AoE jutsu to fight like Mandara no Jin. But like I said before, with how screwed up Oro is and his weird soul, I don't know if you can torture him. he literally got ripped in half and laughed it off.




> -Hanzou defeated all 3 Sannins


He defeated three Sannin in their 20's, with no Sozo Saisei, HM, Edo Tensei, Yamata no Jutsu, Possibly no Boss Summons. That is alot of their aresnal and we have no idea how that fight went so it is all mere speculation.



> -Sakumo was more skilled than all 3 sannins


Really, lets see the scan?   It says they respected him on the same level as the three Sannin. Nothing about power, or being stronger then them. Just respect    



> -Izuna was on Madara prime level


We have no feats for him. None. 



> From what we know this is rapestomp.


If they were the same level then yes it would be, but it isn't. He doesn't have the prep to do this mid battle either.



> And we saw everything from the kages.Hashirama without bijuu is on that level-nothing more.


So if _OLD_ Sarutobi > Edo Hashirama, and you think they don't lose any powers they had in their prime at all and that same Hashirama with no Biju's tied with Prime EMS Madara, and you love to use A>B>C logic then that means Old Sarutobi is stronger then EMS Madara. 

I just killed two of your arguments with one stone. A>B>C logic fails, and Edo Summons are nothing like they are in real life.




> Totsuka Sword.


So Itachi would beat Orochimaru, Hanzo, Izauna, and Sakumo all in their prime ability according to you. That shows your biasness.




> Oro can't regenerate forever.He would be defeated by Sasuke’s MS Hax.


Sasuke can't spam MS forever, he would be defeated by his cockiness. Orochimaru was able to regenerate multiple times while his body was rejecting him. Healthy, he should be fine.




> Sasuke don’t must to  wait to much to prepare Kirin:


Proof that was Kirin. The sky was clear, no fire had been fired up in the clouds, and no Raiton chakra were gathered around his hands.



> how exactly would a Rashomon Gate defend against Kirin?And when Orochimaru used  Fuutons?Summonings get owned By Susanoo or Amaterasu.


Oro can hide under the gate.  and . More like if they go after summons the Uchuiha Bros are open to attack by the actual ninjas and other summons.





> Come on now.What feats?Naruto defeated 6 path,Jiraiya just 3. Pain himself said that Naruto is the strongest that he ever fought:


Jiraiya's more valuable and dangerous ninjutsu, better synergy with the toads, having better CQC via two Kawazu Kumite users on his shoulders and about equal speed and strength, and better intelligence. Pretty much everything.

Then both lost to Pain, Jiraiya with no knowledge what so ever and Pain had loads of knowledge on him and Naruto with lots of knowledge and prep when Pain had no knowledge of his techs. Jiraiya killed 4 bodies, 1 with no arm. Naruto killed 6. I think we see who did better here considering the conditions.

"You're very strong.....no one has given Pain this much trouble before." No where does it state "You are the strongest I have ever fought"? He is the strongest individual Pain has fought with this much knowledge on him and prep.



> Naruto>Jiraiya


Feats again disagree. Until Naruto controls the Kyuubi that is.




> Nope the maga never said that Sasuke surprised the King.


_Hypothetically. _




> Kakashi  just blitz her and kills her with Chidori.







> Orochimaru defeated Jiraiya twice.


Once was before either devolved some current techs, and Jiraiya was holding back while Oro was bloodlusted. The second they both had handicaps.

Sasuke defeated Itachi, so he must be stronger amirite.



> Sandaime said that shinobi that can defeat Oro doesn't exist in Konoha.


Jiraiya doesn't live in Konoha, nor does he try and associate himself with them.



> Anko wanted dead people(Minato) to come and fight Orochimaru and Jiraiya was a live.


Because that definatly means Orochimaru is stronger then him right?



> By feats: Oro>J-man.


Try again. Jiraiya has shown the better summons, he has shown more dangerous jutsu with more versatility, even if Oro has forbidden jutsu, I'm talking combat jutsu. Better CQC with greater speed, strength and stamina. He also has better taijutsu style along with two Kawazu Kumite users on his shoulders. He kills him in genjutsu with Magen: Gamarinshou. The only area Orochimaru might win is intelligence, but with Jiraiya's strategies and two 800+ year old toads on his shoulder I find it hard to believe.




> Where was proved that Genjutsu don’t work.


When Oro can just break it out, as well as teammates and summon to do it too.



> Itachi just kills Oro with tsukuyomi where he can controll time and space or Orochimaru will just ran away when he will see Itachi’s face.


You can't kill with a genjutsu.



> Tsunade get stomped by exploding clone and Itachi uses Amaterasu to kill Jiraiya in the end.


Tsunade has tanked way worse then a mere explosion, and Jiraiya has shown the speed to outrun Amaterasu for at least long enough to get behind cover.






> Nope Itachi  with full knowledge and Sannins without knowledge-Itachi solos.
> 
> The Sannins with full knowledge  and Itachi without it-The sannins will win but Itachi will kill 2 of tham.


Itachi isn't beating Edo Orochimaru, HM Jiraiya and Tsunade. If you truly think that, then make a thread and see how the comments turn out.

If you really think this way, I see no further reason to debate with you or even see your posts, so welcome to my ignore list. It is absolutely ridiculous and I really don't feel like listening to you anymore.


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## Butt Hole lol (May 23, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Really, lets see the scan?   It says they respected him on the same level as the three Sannin. Nothing about power, or being stronger then them. Just respect



according to narupedia:



> Like his son, Sakumo was a gifted shinobi praised for his talents in the ninja arts even by the likes of Minato Namikaze, the Fourth Hokage. In battle, Sakumo was a truly powerful shinobi, and in his time, *his powers were said to surpass those of the Sannin in his day*. The mere idea of facing Sakumo brought fear to enemies, as shown from the reaction of an Iwagakure shinobi initially believing Kakashi to be his father. His primary weapon during battle was a tantō called the White Light Chakra Sabre that would emit a trail of white chakra when swung, earning him the nickname "Konoha's White Fang". After he died, he left his tantō to Kakashi, which was later on cut in half when Kakashi fought Kakkō, an Iwagakure shinobi.


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## Sanbi (May 23, 2010)

Yeah, Narutopedia isn't the best source you can have since it can be edited. Scans can't be edited. What I said was canon.


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 23, 2010)

if jiraiya uses frog song of the bat team sanin wins but if were going by ic team sharingon wins, itachi should be able to stun oro with tsukiyomi, sasuke should be able to fight on equal footing with jiraiya, and kakashi should be able to handle tsunade, the way i see it is since itachi will down oro almost instantly he can go and help either member and then eventualy it will turn into a 3 on one, team sanin lose due to not having a itachi counter.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

If Kakashi tries to handle Tsunade, he's against her and Katsuyu. And she's better in Taijutsu


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## daschysta (May 23, 2010)

Sharingan is the equalizer, and it makes a HUGE difference, combined with his speed advantage that is larger than her taijutsu advantage, he should fair fine in cqc.

Katsuyu has absolutely no offensive utility here other than her acid, which, while dangerous, katsuyu is likely not able to turn and maneuver fast enough to keep up with tsunade and kakashi having a mobile skirmish.


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## Atlantic Storm (May 23, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> -Hanzou defeated all 3 Sannins



Inexperienced and much less powerful versions of their current selves.



> -Sakumo was more skilled than all 3



In their time, not their current selves.



> sannins                                           -Izuna was on Madara prime level



No he wasn't. Prime Madara was Madara but with Izuna's eyes added to his strength. Izuna was equal to Madara up to the point where Madara got desperate and plucked out his eyes.



> Come on now.What feats?Naruto defeated 6 path,Jiraiya just 3. Pain himself said that Naruto is the strongest that he ever fought:
> 
> 
> 
> Naruto>Jiraiya



Arguable. Two completely different situations. In Naruto's case, Pain was holding back, Deva was recovering from interval, he essentially had full knowledge, started full power and basically had an army of toads to back him up.

In Jiraiya's case. Pain didn't give two shits if he died, Pain was at full power, Jiraiya had little to no knowledge and started in base.



> Kakashi  just blitz her and kills her with Chidori.



Kakashi is stronger than Tsunade, but I doubt he could blitz her...


> Sandaime said that shinobi that can defeat Oro doesn't exist in Konoha.
> Anko wanted dead people(Minato) to come and fight Orochimaru and Jiraiya was a live.



Anko meant anyone that was in the Village. No one knew that Jiraiya was in the village back then.



> Tsunade get stomped by exploding clone and Itachi uses Amaterasu to kill Jiraiya in the end.



Tsunade won't get killed by Bushin explosion. She's taken several critical strikes to the body and got slashed several times by Orochimaru and was still alive. One exploding clone won't suffice.



> Nope Itachi  with full knowledge and Sannins without knowledge-Itachi solos.
> The Sannins with full knowledge  and Itachi without it-The sannins will win but Itachi will kill 2 of tham.



Do you seriously think that Itachi could beat Hermit Mode Jiraiya along with Orochimaru and Tsunade? You realize that one of the most popular topics in the Battledome(you could consider it the Naruto version of Superman vs Goku, only much less popular) is Jiraiya(base) vs Itachi. Each one of those threads spanned more than 10 pages. It's still controversial now whether or not Itachi can beat base Jiraiya, yet you think he can "solo" Hermit Mode Jiraiya, Orochimaru _and_ Tsunade?

Sure, Itachi's strong, but not _that_strong.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Tsunade's also got her crazy attack prediction. And Sarutobi has also shown someone with lesser speed can handle someone via superior Taijutsu.
Plus, Tsunade punches the ground once to throw an opponent off, then punches then. Kakashi can't dodge forever and would need to resort to blocking eventually


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Tsunade's also got her crazy attack prediction. And Sarutobi has also shown someone with lesser speed can handle someone via superior Taijutsu.
> Plus, Tsunade punches the ground once to throw an opponent off, then punches then. Kakashi can't dodge forever and would need to resort to blocking eventually



True but my point being is im confident kakashi can hold her off until itachi finishes oro and then helps either him or sasuke, aso keep in mind oro and his edo tensie bodies were toying with sarutobi.


so kakashi being superior in speed and having sharingon he should be able to fight on equal footing for a while even with the restrictions


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## Atlantic Storm (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Tsunade's also got her crazy attack prediction. And Sarutobi has also shown someone with lesser speed can handle someone via superior Taijutsu.
> Plus, Tsunade punches the ground once to throw an opponent off, then punches then. Kakashi can't dodge forever and would need to resort to blocking eventually



Actually, she can't predict attacks like the Sharingan can. She doesn't have precognition, it's more of a "as the battle goes on I figure out your attack patterns" kind of thing. Which may or may not be very useful against a person who can kill you in one shot depending on where said attack landed.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

No, that I'm well aware of. However, Kakashi's at the disadvantage because of it, especially as Tsunade is a superior taijutsu fighter. And if she fights smart, she'd just have to puncht the ground to throw her opponent off.
and one touch and your nervous system is effed up.


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> No, that I'm well aware of. However, Kakashi's at the disadvantage because of it, especially as Tsunade is a superior taijutsu fighter. And if she fights smart, she'd just have to puncht the ground to throw her opponent off.
> and one touch and your nervous system is effed up.



she is stronger, i wouldnt call her the superior taijutsu fighter, kakashi spars with gai


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Kakashi: 4.5
Tsunade 5

Their taijutus stats, btw


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Kakashi: 4.5
> Tsunade 5
> 
> Their taijutus stats, btw



now take the 4.5 and factor in kakashi's superior speed and sharingon prediction advantage.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Factor in Tsunade's strength and you'd got a more even fighter. We saw from Hiruzen and Hidan that one can easily compete with faster opponents via equal or superior Taijutsu skill


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## Butt Hole lol (May 23, 2010)

strength isnt going to be a factor if you cant hit the person.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Like Orochimaru couldn't be hit by Hiruzen?


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Factor in Tsunade's strength and you'd got a more even fighter. We saw from Hiruzen and Hidan that one can easily compete with faster opponents via equal or superior Taijutsu skill


 if kabuto was able to avoid tsunades attacks why cant kakashi? due to sharingon and speed i doubt she'll ever hit him.


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## Atlantic Storm (May 23, 2010)

Databook stats are not supposed to be compared.


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 23, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Databook stats are not supposed to be compared.



thank you atlantic because you can be fast in your own right, or be strong in your own right, like itachi having a 5 imo is highly due to reaction and his handseal speed not physical running.


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## L. Messi [✔] (May 23, 2010)

Team Sharingan, easily if I may add ^^

Itachi, roflstomped Orochimaru twice and less than 10 seconds without breaking a sweat. Tsunade is basically a fodder (>.<) but Kakashi can maybe handle her until the other comes.

Sasuke and Itachi vs Jiraiya... lol, Jiraiya gets stomped so hard that it's disgusting. Double Amaterasu, Susano and Tsukuyomi :S

Too much rape here.


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 23, 2010)

ItachiTheGreat said:


> Team Sharingan, easily if I may add ^^
> 
> Itachi, roflstomped Orochimaru twice and less than 10 seconds without breaking a sweat. Tsunade is basically a fodder (>.<) but Kakashi can maybe handle her until the other comes.
> 
> ...



it definitley will not be easy.


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 23, 2010)

daschysta said:


> Tsunade was hit multiple times by kabuto, she is going to need souzou saizei against kakashi. That is at the very least. If kakashi had kamui, and wasn't gimped by the lack of it she would be stomped horribly. Even without it he stands a very good chance against her. I like how you are giving her feats that she has not even begun to demonstrate. I don't like tsunade battles because the one battle she was in she looked like shit due to her hemophobia, and being out of practice, but you also cannot just project on to her levels of skill vastly above what she has shown in the manga. Especially to say that she would not need souzou sazei? If she was tagged so many times by kabuto, she is going to eat a raikiri to the vitals eventually.
> 
> Sanbi what do you think she can do against raiton kage bunshin? With her current speed feats she is not landing a hit on kakashi, unless he underestimates her, thinking she is defeated (with no knowledge of her seal) or if he allows her to hit a bunshin as a set up for some trap. Furthermore she is a hothead, and characters like that are easily exploited by nin who can keep their cool like kakashi.
> 
> ...



TL;DR.

Give me one good counter to Tsunade punching the fuck out of him. One good counter to Ranshinshou. Give me one good counter to Katsuyu.

Got none? kthnxbai.


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## daschysta (May 23, 2010)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> TL;DR.
> 
> Give me one good counter to Tsunade punching the fuck out of him. One good counter to Ranshinshou. Give me one good counter to Katsuyu.
> 
> Got none? kthnxbai.



One counter? Avoid being punched, her attacks are not very fast, and were dodged by kabuto who is slower, worse at taijutsu, and lacks the sharingan to predict movements. Kakashi can dodge at least as well he did then, even if tsunade is in shape, considering kakashi is far above the kabuto back then too. So yeah, she won't touch him. Notice the only times she could even touch kabuto is when he underestimated her. 

Katsuyu has no good offensive feats, doubtfull the acid will hit kakashi engaged in a very mobile taijutsu battle, katsuyu is slow, and her most useful ability is to channel tsunades chakra allowing her to heal people even if she is not near them ,provided tsunade is channeling.

Tsunade won't touch him, and if she does it will be a Raikage bunshin. 

I guess she would be relatively safe on top of katsuyu, but she won't be harming kakashi from there, prompting one of kakashi's allies to help out amaterasu the slug.

Who knows perhaps he could use raikiri wolf on katsuyu's eyestalks, rendering it useless evenmoreso offensively.


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 23, 2010)

daschysta said:


> One counter? Avoid being punched, her attacks are not very fast, and were dodged by kabuto who is slower, worse at taijutsu, and lacks the sharingan to predict movements. Kakashi can dodge at least as well he did then, even if tsunade is in shape, *considering kakashi is far above the kabuto back then too.* So yeah, she won't touch him. *Notice the only times she could even touch kabuto is when he underestimated her. *
> 
> Katsuyu has no good offensive feats, doubtfull the acid will hit kakashi engaged in a very mobile taijutsu battle, katsuyu is slow, and her most useful ability is to channel tsunades chakra allowing her to heal people even if she is not near them ,provided tsunade is channeling.
> 
> ...



Oh lord.

1.) He needs to attack her in close quarters. She dodges everything from far range. She will pressure him like she did Kabuto, even when she wasn't in her best state, and won't allow him the opportunity to make Raikagebunshin.

2.) Kabuto back then was stated to be on par with Kakashi back then, by multiple people. Your point is moot.

3.)Notice how Kabuto only managed to hit her after she was in a position unable to dodge. Even with his advantages, that's rather poor. But, I suppose understandable. He _was_ up against one of the Sannin, after all.

4.) Raikiri Katsuyu's eyestalks? Do you know how tall Katsuyu is? How do you imagine he'll get there?

5.) Katsuyu's acid has a large range. She spat it out incredibly quickly, and it was dodged by Manda simply because he moved insanely fast. Kakashi can't move that fast.

6.) Nothing Kakashi does, aside from Kamui, could defeat Tsunade. But that's banned. GG Kakashi. He'll get one-shotted.


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## daschysta (May 23, 2010)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Oh lord.
> 
> 1.) He needs to attack her in close quarters. She dodges everything from far range. She will pressure him like she did Kabuto, even when she wasn't in her best state, and won't allow him the opportunity to make Raikagebunshin.
> 
> ...




sigh, kakashi is much faster than tsunade, if he needs to make RKB he can make it very easily, either by going underground, or blocking LOS with doton wall, there is not really anything tsunade can do to prevent that. You don't know if she could dodge all of kakashi's long ranged attacks or not, deva pein was forced to Shinra tensei Raikiri wolf, and he was fast enough to dodge even fuuton rasenshuriken.

2. Tsunade is stated to be on a similar level to the other sannin as well, but she sure as hell is not in combat equal to her peers, at least not based on what she has shown, kabuto is the same way, kakashi is a straight up combat/stealth type of shinobi, kabuto is a medical/ kenjutsu type, similar level, yes, same combat strength, no. Kabuto has never done anything but run away from kakashi with his tail between his legs.

3. Kabuto maneuvered her into a position where she was unable to dodge with his superior taijutsu and tactics, this isn't a plus to tsunade at all. Fact is she should be stronger now, but _that_ fight did not look good for her, kabuto even admitted he was not very skilled in taijutsu.

4. That was just an afterthought, much more likely would be sasuke tossing an amaterasu in katsuyu's direction.

5. kakashi could dodge the acid by going underground, and if tsunade was near kakashi she risks being hit with it as well.

6. Once again a raikiri to the face _would_ kill tsunade, and with knowledge that is what kakashi is going to be aiming for, not the heart.

I must reiterrate tsunades SLOW ASS PUNCHES are not hitting someone faster than her with the sharingan, it will be damn near impossible for her to land a hit on the actual kakashi. Sharingan allows people of near kakashi speed to dodge the f'ing raikage, and land chidori, tsunade's thrusts will be moving in relative slow motion.

If tsunades hopes of victory hinge on standing on top of a slug and not engaging kakashi, or trying to actually prevent him from creating kage bunshin when noone else in the manga has, then she is in for a rude awakening.

As for the kakashi kabuto level thing did tsunade not state that that kabuto's strength and senses may even have surpassed hers in her prime? Doesn't seem to really help your argument that much.


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## Butt Hole lol (May 23, 2010)

lol since when is a punch hard to dodge? when you have the sharingan and greater speed then your opponent your almost untouchable, the only people that are capable of tagging kakashi is Jiraiya and Orochimaru.


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 23, 2010)

daschysta said:


> sigh, kakashi is much faster than tsunade, if he needs to make RKB he can make it very easily, either by going underground, or blocking LOS with doton wall, there is not really anything tsunade can do to prevent that. You don't know if she could dodge all of kakashi's long ranged attacks or not, deva pein was forced to Shinra tensei Raikiri wolf, and he was fast enough to dodge even fuuton rasenshuriken.



Speed isn't the only factor in a fight. 

If he goes under the ground, Tsunade smashes. If he makes a doton wall (has he shown this ability?), Tsunade smashes. Tsunade's a medic, who's hyped in evasion and has shown so in her fight against Kabuto. He'll be hardpressed to catch her, and I suppose vice versa holds true as well.



> 2. Tsunade is stated to be on a similar level to the other sannin as well, but she sure as hell is not in combat equal to her peers, at least not based on what she has shown, kabuto is the same way, kakashi is a straight up combat/stealth type of shinobi, kabuto is a medical/ kenjutsu type, similar level, yes, same combat strength, no. Kabuto has never done anything but run away from kakashi with his tail between his legs.



We saw Tsunade utterly dominate Kabuto in the fight, despite her condition. Do you recall how she had to be put down through use of her phobia, since Kabuto couldn't handle her anymore?



> 3. Kabuto maneuvered her into a position where she was unable to dodge with his superior taijutsu and tactics, this isn't a plus to tsunade at all. Fact is she should be stronger now, but _that_ fight did not look good for her, kabuto even admitted he was not very skilled in taijutsu.



Kabuto has superior taijutsu?

I've stopped taking you seriously.



> 4. That was just an afterthought, much more likely would be sasuke tossing an amaterasu in katsuyu's direction.



Sasuke's involved now? Isn't he busy with Orochimaru? Or possibly even Jiraiya?



> 5. kakashi could dodge the acid by going underground, and if tsunade was near kakashi she risks being hit with it as well.



She'd be on Katsuyu's head, as that happens when she's summoned. This acid, also, melted through rocks, so the ground isn't necessarily smart.



> 6. Once again a raikiri to the face _would_ kill tsunade, and with knowledge that is what kakashi is going to be aiming for, not the heart.



Yes, because Kakashi's going to get close enough to do a Raikiri, while Tsunade stands there, not even considering one-shotting him in such a close range.


> I must reiterrate tsunades SLOW ASS PUNCHES are not hitting someone faster than her with the sharingan, it will be damn near impossible for her to land a hit on the actual kakashi. Sharingan allows people of near kakashi speed to dodge the f'ing raikage, and land chidori, tsunade's thrusts will be moving in relative slow motion.



Kakashi's attacks aren't going to defeat her. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this.



> If tsunades hopes of victory hinge on standing on top of a slug and not engaging kakashi, or trying to actually prevent him from creating kage bunshin when noone else in the manga has, then she is in for a rude awakening.



That's not necessary. Souzou Saisei tanks everything, and she'll be pressuring him like she did Kabuto. Except she'll be in a position more readily to do so. I have yet to see how Kakashi will counter an enormous slug.



> As for the kakashi kabuto level thing did tsunade not state that that kabuto's strength and senses may even have surpassed hers in her prime? Doesn't seem to really help your argument that much.



She stated that his senses and sharpness, in relation to chakra scalpel, may have surpassed hers in her prime. Note the _may_.


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## daschysta (May 23, 2010)

Senses and strength, but they have screwed up translations before, do you have a better scan legendary?

1. Of course he used doton wall against pein, and kakashi can make a kage bunshin put himself underground and appear where itachi is a distance away faster than itachi's katon could reach his original location. Tsunade is not fast enough to destroy the wall and realize what has happened before kakashi executes a similar maneuver.

2. She didn't show enough evasion to avoid being hit by kabuto after he forced her into the air (a horrible choice of dodge btw) When did tsunade "utterly dominate" kabuto, because I sure didn't see it, in fact kabuto flat out stated that he could have hit her neck instead of her breast (which saved her from death) like 2 pages into the fight. If anything tsunade only survived the initial skirmish once they settled on a location thanks to her massive breasts. Then kabuto states that he was not fighting seriously (despite being able to kill her before) after he is suprised by rahinshou. Jiraiya and co arrives, and tsunade runs at kabuto, who would have dodged had he not spattered her with blood. Lol at "had" to be put down with her phobia, what stops kabuto from just dodging, like he had been the entire rest of the fight? 


Kabuto was never pressured like your fanfic makes it seem, could have killed her, and tsunade to boot even admits that he may be just as powerful as her in her prime.

Kakashi now is much more powerful than pt. 1 kabuto, who was possibly just as powerful as tsunade in her prime.

3. I said kabuto demonstrated superior tajiutsu in their fight. You don't think he did? Because it looks like he did to me. Going by databooks no, but going by tsunade's comments and their fight then yeah.

4.You are acting thick ,yes kakashi can get close enough to raikiri her face, she is not going to one shot him because she won't hit him



Sharingan will allow him to do THAT, except in this case it will be much much easier than when sasuke did it, due to how much faster the raikiri's elbow is compared to tsunades sluggish punches.

5. You don't think she would die if she takes a raikiri to her face? You don't think she dies if her head is chopped off with this?


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Because that was Tsunade strongly out of practice, getting drunk every night, etc.

How could he dodged if she shattered the ground first?


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## daschysta (May 23, 2010)

Tsunade _was_ out of practice, but she states that kabuto may well be stronger than her in her prime, meaning that even at her best state she was not much higher than kabuto anyway. The same kabuto that admitted he was bad at taijutsu.

When would she shatter the ground, before the exchange? In that case why would that preven kakashi from dodging? Unless you think he is going to trip or something lol, a ground smashing attack aimed at him? He will casually avoid it.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

In what regard? She only said that after seeing him figure out the rashinsoshou. And yes, if she taps the ground, then the ground is messed up. She follows through. Opponent dies

And how did Kabuto win? Right. Soldier pill. Against an out of practice opponent. And exploting her fear


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## Butt Hole lol (May 23, 2010)

soldier pills just restores chakra and its not cheating its like saying "he used a kunia in that fight and it wasnt fair because she doesnt have one". But ill agree expoiting her fear isnt fair.


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 23, 2010)

daschysta said:


> Senses and strength, but they have screwed up translations before, do you have a better scan legendary?



Can't find one right now, but we'll use the one you provided.

She said he's not an ordinary medical ninja, and that his senses and strength may have surpassed hers in her prime. She was speaking in terms of medical ninjutsu, and since he was using chakra scalpel, that specifically. She didn't state anything about him physically.



> 1. Of course he used doton wall against pein, and kakashi can make a kage bunshin put himself underground and appear where itachi is a distance away faster than itachi's katon could reach his original location. Tsunade is not fast enough to destroy the wall and realize what has happened before kakashi executes a similar maneuver.



So not only is she not fast enough to land a hit, she's not fast enough to hit a _wall?_



> 2. She didn't show enough evasion to avoid being hit by kabuto after he forced her into the air (a horrible choice of dodge btw) When did tsunade "utterly dominate" kabuto, because I sure didn't see it, in fact kabuto flat out stated that he could have hit her neck instead of her breast (which saved her from death) like 2 pages into the fight. If anything tsunade only survived the initial skirmish once they settled on a location thanks to her massive breasts. Then kabuto states that he was not fighting seriously (despite being able to kill her before) after he is suprised by rahinshou. Jiraiya and co arrives, and tsunade runs at kabuto, who would have dodged had he not spattered her with blood. Lol at "had" to be put down with her phobia, what stops kabuto from just dodging, like he had been the entire rest of the fight?



You can't dodge in mid air.

She showed an impressive evasive feat, dodging Kabuto's doton, despite being tired out/out of shape, and it was shown an inch from her feet, which was still on the ground. She's incredibly elusive. If she can do that in that state, imagine when she's healthy.

What stops Kabuto from dodging is the fact that she blitzed the fuck out of him, and he realized her strength, as he had been underestimating her before. He even stated that despite her being away from the front line for years, she still had such amazing power, and questioned if this was the power of the Sannin. He was obviousy impressed, and realized that he stood no chance without taking advantage of her phobia.



> Kabuto was never pressured like your fanfic makes it seem, could have killed her, and tsunade to boot even admits that he may be just as powerful as her in her prime.



He had to keep evading blows, and couldn't get one in himself until she was in mid-air, which is a position impossible to dodge in. He didn't have a chance to attack her offensively until then. 

Yet again, she didn't say anything about his combat skills, just his medical "chakra scalpel" skills.



> Kakashi now is much more powerful than pt. 1 kabuto, who was possibly just as powerful as tsunade in her prime.



Kabuto is nowhere near close to Tsunade in her prime. You continue to mistake the sense in which that statement was spoken. She said he was no ordinary "medical ninja", and was speaking of his chakra scalpel. Not his combat abilities. Kabuto already admitted inferiority to her, knowing that one hit would end it; Orochimaru backed up this claim.



> 3. I said kabuto demonstrated superior tajiutsu in their fight. You don't think he did? Because it looks like he did to me. Going by databooks no, but going by tsunade's comments and their fight then yeah.



Her comments were in reference to his "chakra scalpel" skills, as I reiterate again. She didn't say his combat skills, not that he was "stronger" or a "better ninja" than her.


> 4.You are acting thick ,yes kakashi can get close enough to raikiri her face, she is not going to one shot him because she won't hit him



If he's close enough to Raikiri his face, I'm pretty sure Tsunade can one-shot him at that range. That's much more deadly for him, as close range is her fort?.



> Sharingan will allow him to do THAT, except in this case it will be much much easier than when sasuke did it, due to how much faster the raikiri's elbow is compared to tsunades sluggish punches.



Sasuke's feat =/= Kakashi's feat.



> 5. You don't think she would die if she takes a raikiri to her face? You don't think she dies if her head is chopped off with this?


[/QUOTE]

No, I don't, because I don't think he's going to land that hit on her.

If you don't get my post by now, you're not getting it. Kakashi has nothing to kill Tsunade, nothing to counter Katsuyu. He's a dead man.


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## daschysta (May 23, 2010)

she did not say that after rashinshou, she said it after he forced her into the air, cut her abdomen, and then hit her chest. The manga even flat out states he could have got her neck instead, and she was only saved by her fat breasts







better senses and stronger.

And kabuto never had to exploit her hemophobia one bit. He chose to becuase it was easiest 



You don't think he could have dodged there? like he had been doing the entire fight? It's not like he ever seems overly concerned.

As for your other scenario, tsunade has not shown the speed to follow up a ground bursting attack quickly enough. That would require her to be far faster than her opponent, which she is not. 



She breaks open the ground kakashi just jumps back, never is she even close to being quick enough to pull off the maneuver you describe.

A soldier pill is part of a shinobis power as stated when kiba fought naruto, and mostly just restores chakra.

Her statement about kabuto being quite possibly stronger than her in her prime is pretty damning.

Legendary, That is incredibly stupid, you should be able to do better than that.

Her statement about sense and strength came right after he had just dodged her, cut her muscles, and had her at his mercy, he could have killed her. Nowhere is the implication that she is just talking medical jutsu, she never seemed particularly impressed by kabuto's scalpels, just stating that he can also use medical jutsu. It is after she got her ass handed to her that she makes the statement about his senses and strength. Kabuto had not used any medical ninjutsu except for chakra scalpels, which are common to many medic nins. What did kabuto show for tsunade's comment to be made? Not new medical jutsu, just the ability to hand tsunade her ass.

2. What are you talking about? Of course she is fast enough to hit a wall, where did I say she wasn't, she is not fast enough to destroy the wall before kakashi can replace himself with a kage bunshin is what I said.

3. Kakashi dodged kakuzu's nuke despite being in mid air. And that is her fault that she allowed herself no other option than to leave herself open. And I can imagine her in shape 

It is equal, maybe slightly worse than pt. 1 kabuto, just like she stated.

4. She did not "blitz the fuck out of him" Kabuto was unaware that she could move, of course he would be suprised when she got up. He was pontificating with his eyes closed when she got up. That is not a blitz. When he let blood get on her, he could have just as easily dodged her, as he saw it coming from a mile away and was dodging her with ease the entire fight. The blood was just an easy way to down her, as he had to now be concerned with jiraiya and co.

5. I believe it is you that is mistaking tsunades statement. She was never impressed by just his medical jutsu at that point, only after she was bested in combat did she make her statement. The statement likely refers to the fact that he is so powerful in combat, despite being a medic, as medics do not typically engage in combat the way kabuto was.

6. The sasuke feat is very applicable here, base sharingan works the same for everyone, kakashi is at least as fast and better at taijutsu than sasuke, and has the same sharingan prediction, while tsunade is slow as excuse the bad joke, as slug, compared to the raikage.

7. You just keep repeating if kakashi is that close then she can one shot him, despite her hits not oneshotting kabuto, or oneshotting oro, and her generally being unable to hit either of them. Kakashi's evasion is better than both of theirs due to sharingan. There is no reason it will not go down exactly the same way that raikage vs sasuke did in my scan.

However it is very apparent that the depth of your arguments are tsunade is a sannin therefore she wins, so this is not very productive, instead of finding evidence to support your points you ahve been repeating the same thing, and instead of countering counterarguments you repeat the same thing, it is similar to debating a wall.


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 23, 2010)

Then please, I beg of you, explain to me why he questioned if her prowess was worthy of that of the Sannin, if he was handling her so easily.


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## Butt Hole lol (May 23, 2010)

Sannin means three doesnt it(Jiraiya,Tsunade,Orchimaru)? and the reason she got the title is because of her team mates.


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 23, 2010)

I have to wait 24 hours to neg you.

Are you fucking kidding me? Kabuto stated that the skills she displayed, pushing him to his limits, was worthy of the power of the Sannin. And you're telling me it's because she was simply there with her teammates?


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## Butt Hole lol (May 23, 2010)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> I have to wait 24 hours to neg you.
> 
> Are you fucking kidding me? Kabuto stated that the skills she displayed, pushing him to his limits, was worthy of the power of the Sannin. And you're telling me it's because she was simply there with her teammates?



err...no i meant the reason Jiraiya,Orochimaru and Tsunade got the title was because of their teamwork. Im not saying she is weak or anything.


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## Shizune (May 23, 2010)

Party Hat said:


> Sannin means three doesnt it(Jiraiya,Tsunade,Orchimaru)? and the reason she got the title is because of her team mates.



This is an absolute joke, and an argument only used when people who are firmly set against Tsunade have nothing constructive to say.

Tsunade had children aspiring to be like her, whereas kids barely even knew Jiraiya or Orochimaru's names. She is the founder of medical specialists, and the reason that Konohagakure no Sato has skilled hospitals. Jiraiya, one of the most powerful shinobi of the series, regarded her very highly. Orochimaru, a man who chuckled at facing Sarutobi Hiruzen, the Shinobi no Kami ("God of Shinobi"), and was little more than amused by the Kyūbi no Yōko, expressed blatant fear towards her. Yakushi Kabuto, an extremely skilled assassin, placed numerous, crippling handicaps on her, and was still outmatched.

Tsunade, and Tsunade alone, worked hard to be the legend that she is, and don't ever forget it.


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## Butt Hole lol (May 23, 2010)

Alkonis said:


> This is an absolute joke, and an argument only used when people who are firmly set against Tsunade have nothing constructive to say.
> 
> Tsunade had children aspiring to be like her, whereas kids barely even knew Jiraiya or Orochimaru's names. She is the founder of medical specialists, and the reason that Konohagakure no Sato has skilled hospitals. Jiraiya, one of the most powerful shinobi of the series, regarded her very highly. Orochimaru, a man who chuckled at facing Sarutobi Hiruzen, the Shinobi no Kami ("God of Shinobi"), and was little more than amused by the Kyūbi no Yōko, expressed blatant fear towards her. Yakushi Kabuto, an extremely skilled assassin, placed numerous, crippling handicaps on her, and was still outmatched.
> 
> Tsunade, and Tsunade alone, worked hard to be the legend that she is, and don't ever forget it.



pfft...calm your harmones down. I never said she was weak. This is probably just an misunderstanding.


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## daschysta (May 23, 2010)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Then please, I beg of you, explain to me why he questioned if her prowess was worthy of that of the Sannin, if he was handling her so easily.



Well thats easy legendary, maybe it is because he is used to seeing orochimaru fight? And orochimaru is an amazing combatant? And tsunade pales in comparison to him in combat? If anything it makes him look mistaken to have assumed all of the sannin are on the same level. Kabuto is strong as fuck as well, he even stated that he wanted to fight jiraiya, and was disapointed when orochimaru did not let him. All implications are that tsunade in shape would be about kabuto's level then. She really was losing the majority of the fight and only landed a hit when kabuto got cocky and closed his eyes. That combined with her statement about her possibly surpassing her prime, I don't see why she would be much stronger than he was right there.

Kabuto made that statement because he was expecting a challenge. Orochimaru and kabuto were both confident in his abilities to handle her somewhat, and they did not know beforehand that she had become a lazy drunk. Kabuto was disapointed and probably was looking forward to a challenge.

To comment on the name thing, she is worthy of being a sannin, of course. The sannin were an amazing team and tsunade was a huge part of that. However, while oro and J-man were famous for their combat exploits and genius in that regard, tsunade stood out as a medic, and is most famous for her ability in that field. Saying that tsunade is weaker than a kage level nin like kakashi that specializes in combat is no insult. Direct combat is not even her specialty. This likely also explains her comment about kabuto, she was suprised that another medical ninja was also so powerful in combat.


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## Shizune (May 23, 2010)

Party Hat said:


> pfft...calm your harmones down. I never said she was weak. This is probably just an misunderstanding.



You made the ignorant statement that she was only known as legendary through her teammates, and I brutally proved you wrong.


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## Butt Hole lol (May 23, 2010)

I worded it wrong, i apalogize...? happy lol


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 23, 2010)

...He was complimenting her, daschysta. Not insulting her. He wondered if that the power she possessed was Sannin-level, despite her being away from the front lines of battle for years.


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## daschysta (May 23, 2010)

They complimented eachother, Kabuto was suprised she was still as competent despite being away for years, and tsunade believed that kabuto was possibly stronger than her in her prime. Kabuto still had the advantage at the time of the fight, and if tsunade were in shape the manga points to them being rather equal.


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 23, 2010)

Some people astound me.

Alright, pre-Kabuto whooped her ass, Kakashi will do the same since he's godly, and they all live happily ever after once the wimmenz is killed.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Bull. The only reason Kabuto SURVIVED was due to Tsunade's hemophobia


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## Butt Hole lol (May 23, 2010)

why has this become a kabuto and tsunade thread?


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## daschysta (May 23, 2010)

Why do you think that lighty? Manga evidence please. Why would THAT specific hit land, when he was easily dodging her the entire fight? What makes you think that, please, scans. 

Is it not more likely that kabuto was just taking advantage of the easiest way to incapacitate her, since backup arrived and oro was crippled and relying on kabuto to handle most of the fighting?

Even if you were right, which you are not, I can say that tsunade only survived because kabuto spared her life right at the beginning of the fight by choosing not to attack her neck, and she could only move because he underestimated how large her breast were.



> why has this become a kabuto and tsunade thread?



to gauge kakashi against tsunade. If kabuto was equal or better to her in part one, and kakashi is much stronger than pt.1 kabuto currently then he will have the advantage against tsunade, which would plot the course of this entire battle, as either sasuke or itachi iwth kakashi's backup are superior to either one of oro or J-man.


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## Tiger (May 23, 2010)

Tsunade is undeniably the weakest of the Sannin.

That in no way means she is weak.

Kakashi is undeniably the weakest of the three sharingan-users in this match.

That in no way means he is weak.

People just rub one another the wrong way, when under the bluff, fluff and arguing - they're not actually disagreeing most of the time.

~

What I find odd, is that the OP took away Edo Tensei, but left the one most overpowered technique in - Frog song.

Frog song > anyone in this match. 

That being said, Kakashi's not able to use Kamui on a person, but he can use it on anything they summon. That means he can use kamui on Ma and Pa's heads. They start 25 meters away on a flat field. And since they have full knowledge of one another's abilities, and since we know Kakashi can use kamui on something as small as a nail moving as fast as Pain propelled it at him - or as fast as Asura's missile can move...I see no reason why he wouldn't remove Ma or Pa's head from their body instantly.

Itachi, healthy, and with MS is easily a match for Jiraiya. In my opinion, Itachi is the strongest fighter in this match all things considered.

However, Boss Summons are allowed in this match - and that brings Tsunade above Kakashi in overall power, plus it helps protect her from him.

Sasuke fighting Oro would have been tricky enough for him, without Manda there. His hawk isn't going to help much except maybe scratch at Manda's eyes while Sasuke remembers what it feels like to be in a poison cloud...when Oro is not under directive to try and take his body. That being said, we all know Oro is unabashedly weak to genjutsu. And the new Sasuke is getting quite good at that.

Honestly, I think anyone saying this fight is one-sided is biased. Without Boss summons, I think Team Sharingan had it. And if Jiraiya can protect Ma and Pa long enough for Frog song to come out, then Team Sannin has it. Genjutsu and finesse-killing vs brute strength.

But then you have Susano'. Both Itachi and Sasuke using theirs simultaneously? Itachi's Susano' can instantly banish someone to a different dimension. It cares not how big its target is. Boss summons mean nothing to either of their Susano, and Kakashi can Kamui Katsuya's head...(does that even help? I don't know...stupid mushy slug) But Kakashi using kamui on Manda's head certainly would.

For me, the match comes down to Frog song. If it can be played, Sannin win. If not, for whatever reason, then Team Sharingan will come out on top.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Kabuto tires her out. Then he uses a soldier pill to regain his own stamina.


She refers to his abilities as a medical ninja. They MAY exceed those of her in her prime.

Hey, remember how Orochimaru was all "Only Tsunade can heal me" and not "Hey, Kabuto, let's roll."


Kabuto confirms she's been away from battle. A lot.


Then everyone else arrives

Oh, and Tsunade had no knowledge of Kabuto's abilities. The reverse was untrue. If she could use her strength without her chakra cords cut, she'd have killed him early.

When Tsunade still charges?


Here's Kabuto using her weakness and thinking "It's bad for even me to fight a Sannin..." Implying he knows he'll lose in a straight fight


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## daschysta (May 23, 2010)

He never implies he would lose, and your argument just makes mine stronger.

If orochimaru knew only tsunade could heal his injury, and yet tsunade claimed that kabuto was quite possibly stronger than her in her prime, this just points to the fact that she was not just referring to medical ninjutsu.

It is obvious man.

Here is the sequence of events for the last time

Kabuto takes soldier pills and activates chakra scalpels- These are the only medical ninjutsu that he used, tsunade does not seem impressed, only recognizes him as a medical ninja. Soldier pills are fair game, and are considered to be part of the strength of the ninja, as is stated during hte chuunin exams.

------------------------------------

Kabuto then uses doton, which tsunade barely dodges, being forced into the air, kabuto the dashes behind her, cutting her abdomen and her leg muscles.

Kabuto then states that he could kill her by severing her neck arteries and the easily cuts some muscles in her chest.

THIS is when tsunade states that kabuto may be more powerful and have better sense than her in her prime, after a TAIJUTSU/ninjutsu exchange, what implies to you that she was referring to his medical ninjutsu only, especially since your post just contradicted itself.

-------------------------------------

After this kabuto, believing tsunade to be unable to move, closes his eyes and starts to cockily pontificate.

Turns out tsunades huge boobs saved her, and allowed her to move, then, only becuase kabuto was unaware and had his eyes closed, casually moving around, was she able to land rashinshou

-------------------------------------

kabuto then regains control of his body and states that perhaps he has to get a bit serious (unserious kabuto could have killed her right at the very beginning) He intends to use her hemophobia to incapacitate her, NOT THAT HE HAS TO, he would just be idiotic not to do it the easiest way.

-----------------------------------

Backup arrives and tsunade charges, kabuto sees it coming from a mile away and chooses to, instead of dodging her, to shower her in blood, as an easy way to get her out of the battle, since he now has to deal with backup that includes shizune and jiraiya. 

Now according to you kabuto would have died here, instead of dodging her just like the entire rest of the battle.

Why, I beg of you, do you think that? Kabuto who was easily dodging her all battle, will suddenly not be able to, despite seeing it coming, and nothing being particularly fast about that attack?

Tsunade flatout stated that he may be more powerful than her in her prime. She made no inference to just his med jutsu, and context does not imply it.

And in their battle (tsunade tire etc.) he certainly was superior

thus in her prime the two would be roughly equal.


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## Sanbi (May 23, 2010)

So you honestly think Part I Kabuto would beat or tie with Tsunade in her prime? I see no reason to debate with you anymore then.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Wow, Daschysta, way to skirt the facts:
A. You you ignore Tsunad'es physical low points utterly. They seem to just not exist in your version of the fight
B. You ignore Tsunade was tired from the chase
C. Kabuto did not say he was getting serious. He said he needed to be more serious


And Kabuto was caught off guard by her attack, fact...even when Tsunade said his SENSES may exceed her.

Kabuto also thought he was in trouble. He had to resort to exploiting her phobia. 

So, with knowledge while Tsunade had none, Kabuto was able to even use his chakra scalpel on a tired Tsunade. He still thought at the end he was in trouble and resorted to exploiting her phobia.

But anything that makes the guy with the Sharingan look like he might lose Can't have that, it seems...


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## daschysta (May 24, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> So you honestly think Part I Kabuto would beat or tie with Tsunade in her prime? I see no reason to debate with you anymore then.



I don't know sanbi, I hadn't read the fight in a while, but signs seem to point to it being close.

If I am so wrong show me by all means.

Instead of going in with a bias, analyze the battle, and corroborate them with tsunade's statements.

Tsunade did state that kabuto's strength and senses quite possibly surpass her in her prime, with no context suggestions that they are simply speaking about simply chakra scalpel, which she was nonplussed with when he first used and was the only medical jutsu he used.

What do _you_ think she is referring to with that statement?



> Wow, Daschysta, way to skirt the facts:
> A. You you ignore Tsunad'es physical low points utterly. They seem to just not exist in your version of the fight
> B. You ignore Tsunade was tired from the chase
> C. Kabuto did not say he was getting serious. He said he needed to be more serious
> ...



I am not skirting any facts. I have acknowledged that she was at a physical low point, when did I not?

All I stated was that kabuto was comfortably at an advantage for most of the fight, and he was.

I am just trying to interpret tsunade's statements.

How about you tell me why you think she is just talking about his chakra scalpels (which is the only medical jutsu he used) How would tsunade conclude just from those that kabuto has better medical ninjutsu than she had in her prime. That is your argument is it not?

Kabuto stated that he needed to be more serious, but he never implied that he was inferior, or that he would lose, which is what you seem to take away from him using blood, when it is the most obviou thing to do.



You really think that kabuto could not have dodged here? And that his only hope against tsunade was to do what he did?



He was just worried about fighting two sannin at once, tsunade alone was never much of a problem for him.

It should be obvious to you when it was flat out stated he could have killed her, if he had chosen to hit the neck instead of her breasts.

Tsunade got in one hit, because kabuto believed the battle was over, and got casual and closed his eyes. Kabuto dominated their one real exchange, and tsunade says that he may be stronger than her in her prime. 

If he "resorted' to using hemophobia it was because of the backup. Otherwise he was just going to use it to quickly incapacitate her. He had already proved rather superior to her, I realize, weakened state brought on by retirement.

Does it mean that she was definitally weaker than him in her prime, no,
But does it heavily imply that they are at least of a similar level? I think so.


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## Lightysnake (May 24, 2010)

daschysta said:


> I don't know sanbi, I hadn't read the fight in a while, but signs seem to point to it being close.
> 
> If I am so wrong show me by all means.
> 
> Instead of going in with a bias, analyze the battle, and corroborate them with tsunade's statements.


That's kind of what I've been doing



> Tsunade did state that kabuto's strength and senses quite possibly surpass her in her prime, with no context suggestions that they are simply speaking about simply chakra scalpel, which she was nonplussed with when he first used and was the only medical jutsu he used.


That wasn't it and you know it. He also figured out her Jutsu and how to use his body when she scrambled his nervous system



> What do _you_ think she is referring to with that statement?


His medical abilities and senses




> I am not skirting any facts. I have acknowledged that she was at a physical low point, when did I not?


Because you keep using it to downplay her and ignore that she herself could get past that



> All I stated was that kabuto was comfortably at an advantage for most of the fight, and he was.


When? Kabuto even said he was at a disadvantage fighting a Sannin. He only got a clear advantage when he used her Hemophobia



> I am just trying to interpret tsunade's statements.
> 
> How about you tell me why you think she is just talking about his chakra scalpels (which is the only medical jutsu he used) How would tsunade conclude just from those that kabuto has better medical ninjutsu than she had in her prime. That is your argument is it not?


Again, she figured out his nervous system after she scrambled it.
And Tsunade said he MAY surpass her. And she was tired from running like she was



> Kabuto stated that he needed to be more serious, but he never implied that he was inferior, or that he would lose, which is what you seem to take away from him using blood, when it is the most obviou thing to do.



Because there was anything he could do otherwise? Tsunade now knew his abilities, she was far superior in Taijutsu despite her disadvantages and Kabuto realized how dangerous she was



> You really think that kabuto could not have dodged here? And that his only hope against tsunade was to do what he did?


In that one attack? Perhaps not.
In an extended battle like she was going to force



> He was just worried about fighting two sannin at once, tsunade alone was never much of a problem for him.


"It's bad for even me to fight *ONE* of the three ninja"- Kabuto



> It should be obvious to you when it was flat out stated he could have killed her, if he had chosen to hit the neck instead of her breasts.


Provided he even could.
And she'd have healed it, thank you.



> Tsunade got in one hit, because kabuto believed the battle was over, and got casual and closed his eyes. Kabuto dominated their one real exchange, and tsunade says that he may be stronger than her in her prime.


'may.' Key words.
So, Kabuto was at a minor advantage against a Tsunade who:
A. Was already tired
b. When his stamina was doing fine thanks to his pill
C. who hadn't fought in a decade or so and had gotten drunk every night
D. Who had no knowledge.

Bravo, bravo. 



> If he "resorted' to using hemophobia it was because of the backup. Otherwise he was just going to use it to quickly incapacitate her. He had already proved rather superior to her, I realize, weakened state brought on by retirement.


Superior based on what? He even implied he couldn't hold it in a long, drawn out confrontation. 



> Does it mean that she was definitally weaker than him in her prime, no,
> But does it heavily imply that they are at least of a similar level? I think so.



So give her equal knowledge and make it a neutral setting when she's not already winded from chasing them down.

Unless Kakashi has a chakra scalpel, he better not try CQC to disable her punches, too. Kabuto only ever had a clear advantage when he used his blood.


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 24, 2010)

this whole thing is mute, how can anyone imply tsunade can kill kakashsi instantly? sharingon and speed advantage make it highly unlikley for tsunade to land a hit on kakashi, she will likley summon and then kakashi will likley stall and look for a way to counter her, and by then itachi should be finished with oro and go help either 1 of his partners and this fight will be over.


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## Stermor (May 24, 2010)

while the teams are pretty much even. itachi versus jiriaya oro versus sasuke and tsunade versus kakashi. one on one team sharingan might beat the sannins. 

but sannins combined can beat the shit out of team sharingan. there team work is legendary. also the sannins have the knowlegde and skills to fight against a sharingan user. 

teamwork factor is pretty fairly important fight since sasuke canonly be uses ms jutsu's from the start. that would mean he will blow all his ms jutsu's on some rock or something and die couple minuts after. while kakashi and itachi hide and think of a proper plan. 

this would actualy turn it in a 2 versus 3 fight. and then the next problem i see is that with kamui banned i don't see a way kakashi can take out any of the sannins. kakashi just isn't that much faster to exploit a opening the sannins might leave. 

which would make it 3 versus one and well for me itachi is jiraiya's equal. if would make it 50/50 if those alone fought. so adding tsunade and oro would make it a stomp.  

while all the people on team sharingan are called geniusses. (sasuke seems dumber then a rock to me) the experience the sannin have plus all of them have shown significant intelligence. would not allow for any ambushes tricks on either side.

the sannins together can handle anything team sharingan can put out. 

kamui is banned (would have made a excellent tool to get jiriaya off the field.) 

likely no one will fall for tsukiyomi and if that happens each has plenty of summon to get them out of it. and tsunade can patch them up to battle worthy condition rather fast. 

amaterasu is useless when you have fire absorption seals/people who are fast enough to dogde it and literly a pletora of summons and jutsu's to make a barrier in between.

itachi's susanoo will be nasty piece of work. but jiraiya is fast enough to dogde it and retreat(atleast for a while). oro can use rashomon to defend. and tsunade is support so should never be in range anyway. 
they should be able to overcome susanoo rather easily. 

sasuke susanoo would shoot arrows. at a few earth/shadow clones and oro would laugh off the arrows that hit him. personally i see sasuke as to dumb to know he;s wasting his chakra. also i don't think kakashi or itachi can control him and make him work in a team. which ofcourse means sasuke dies in minuts. 

the way i see it team work will allow the sannins the win. itachi and kakashi won't be able to control sasuke. sasuke is to dumb to last long in this fight. and will get killed realy fast. and i don't think itachi and kakashi together match up agianst the 3 sannins. 

hum kinda sad sasuke has the most destructive potential and the most power on team sharingan but because he's stupid i just can't see him doing and damage.


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## Suu (May 24, 2010)

I don't want to turn this into another Tsunade vs Kakashi thread, but there are a few statements here that I just can't let pass.



> Her statement about kabuto being quite possibly stronger than her in her prime is pretty damning.


Except for the fact that it's a mistranslation. I've had staff from mangahelpers.com help out with this particular statement, and I got:

Originally Posted by  
コイツ・・・
並の医療忍者じゃない・・・
This guy isn't any normal medical ninja

術のセンスと切れ味は
His sense and mastery of his jutsu (well it actually says his sense and sharpness of his jutsu... but I felt mastery would be better  )

私の全盛期すら超える
may surpass me even at my prime.

Not only this, but I also have a copy of the official Viz translation sitting in front of me right now, which reads:

This kid...he's no ordinary medical ninja...

His jutsu instincts and sharpness surpass even my own in my prime...

I would love to scan it for you, but I fear that I might be infringing upon some copyright laws by doing so. Head to your local manga/bookstore and check out Volume 19 of Naruto if you wish to verify this.



> And no it is fanfic to believe she can just heal without souzou saizei from a raikiri to the chest, she flatout stated that it was mpossible with regular ninjutsu to heal destroyed organs, isn't that why dan died?


The databook itself states that it is impossible for medical ninjutsu to regrow entire organs, yet uses that to emphasise why Genesis Rebirth is the *ultimate* medical ninjutsu - because it _can_ regenerate organs.

Tsunade states it herself: "I can regenerate all organs and limbs", and databook backs her up.



> Tsunade has not shown herself to be very tactical in battle, while she is a genius in the medical room,


Keep in mind that during her fight with Orochimaru and Kabuto, Tsunade was absolutely enraged. Her opponents had basically insulted the memory of her loved ones and sent her into a blind rage.

As a result, she did some pretty silly things, such as  instead of jump over it in pursuit, and  that had come to help her out. None of these actions are any excuse of course - Orochimaru and Kabuto were smart to take advantage of her temper, and Tsunade should not have lost her cool in this situation.

However, it is pretty safe to say that Tsunade _won't_ be in a blind rage during all her battles. It is not in-character for Kakashi to taunt his enemies into a rage, and Tsunade herself isn't exactly one to become enraged during every battle. Do you think she survived countless A and S-ranked missions and two Great Wars with that sort of battle ethic? And in  instance, we can see that Tsunade was actually the level-headed one, stopping Jiraiya from acting rashly.

As part of her job as Hokage, Tsunade has to made tactical decisions and devise strategies *on a daily basis*. Not only does she have to  based upon their abilities, how they'd synergise, and how they'd suit certain types of missions (I realise it is Shizune being told to do so here, but it's not a stretch to assume that Tsunade does her fair share of it), but she also has to help  with teams, based upon any intel they have. She does this for almost every mission and its respective team, every day. Her databook score of 5/5 in intelligence is certainly warranted.

Her experience should also factor into this. From the databook:
Tsunade: 40 D-rank, 236 C-rank, 467 B-rank, 418 A-rank, 95 S-rank. 
Kakashi: 197 D-rank, 190 C-rank, 414 B-rank, 298 A-rank, 42 S-rank. 
For the higher-ranked missions, Tsunade's mission experience is almost double that of Kakashi's. Not only this, but where Kakashi participated only in the Third Ninja War, Tsunade participated in both the Second and the Third. Kakashi's experience, whilst nothing to laugh at, is still incomparable to Tsunade's. 

In this battle, not only does she have _full_ knowledge on Kakashi, but she has her old team-mates Jiraiya and Orochimaru with her. The three of them have fought through wars together, and been on countless missions together. They've trained together since they were young under the same mentor. The three of them will not only have a plethora of 'combination attacks', but also excellent communication and near-perfect timing of attacks. And the three of their tactical minds combined, with all the knowledge and vast experience that they have, will definitely be able to come up with something neat.

I realise we've assumed that each member of Team Sannin will pair off against a member of Team Sharingan here, but the fact that both Jiraiya and Orochimaru can use Kage Bunshin and Kuchiyose no jutsu potentially makes them a very real presence in Tsunade's own battle.



> She cannot heal herself while she is paralyzed,


Genesis Rebirth is automatic regeneration once active. Obviously if she hasn't activated it then yes, your statement is true.



> She was about to be blitzed by just asura. She was a bit tired from healing I realized, but still, at some point feats or at least strong indications based on other actions need to be shown to place her at a level SO much higher than what she has shown.


"A bit tired from healing"? She was absolutely chakra exhausted. You saw what happened to Kakashi after he used too much chakra. He *died*. Tsunade was more or less on the verge of death, struggling to retain consciousness. 

In fact, not long after, she fell into a coma. So do excuse her for her being in an unfit state to combat Asura Realm at the time.



> Katsuyu has no good offensive feats, doubtfull the acid will hit kakashi engaged in a very mobile taijutsu battle, katsuyu is slow, and her most useful ability is to channel tsunades chakra allowing her to heal people even if she is not near them ,provided tsunade is channeling.


That's a pretty close-minded view of Katsuyu.

Katsuyu's _Zesshi Nensan_ is an extremely potent area-of-effect attack. Look at the top panel of  scan - Katsuyu is actually capable of spitting out quite a large amount of acid, and in quite a large cone of effect.

Whilst it is true that Manda dodged this attack, also keep in mind that Manda is both one of the fastest summons we've seen in the Narutoverse, and large. Obviously his size makes him a larger target, but it also means he is able to cover a greater amount of distance with less effort/movement. For a being the size of Kakashi, it would require nothing short of a _shunshin_ to escape the area-of-effect of Katsuyu's acid spit.

And don't forget that the very summoning of Katsuyu can be a weapon for Tsunade. Tsunade is capable of summoning Katsuyu a good  ahead of her. And Katsuyu's body itself is hundreds of meters long, and hundreds of tonnes heavy. You can even see the  caused upon its initial summoning around its base. Thus, the very summoning of Katsuyu can potentially squash Kakashi flat if he's not careful.

Following that same train of thought, it would not be difficult for Katsuyu to rear up as high as it can and body slam the ground repeatedly. It's weight, combined with gravity, will ensure that such an attack _won't_ be very slow, and because of its size, body slamming can also turn out to be something of an area-of-effect attack.

If Kakashi dares scale Katsuyu, he can be in a lot of trouble. Katsuyu can literally 'shave' him off by splitting the portions of her body Kakashi stands upon off, with the inevitable fall potentially injuring him. If he dares to stand upon her, she can sink his feet/lower half into herself with her meld ability, hindering his movement and perhaps even snaring him for Tsunade to pick off.

The best thing is, Katsuyu can do all these things whilst simultaneously protecting Tsunade.



> Tsunade won't touch him, and if she does it will be a Raikage bunshin.


With full knowledge of Kakashi's RKBs, what's to say Tsunade won't purposely avoid landing 'killing' blows upon them and tap them with _Ranshinshou_ whenever she can land a hit instead?



daschysta said:


> sigh, kakashi is much faster than tsunade, if he needs to make RKB he can make it very easily, either by going underground, or blocking LOS with doton wall, there is not really anything tsunade can do to prevent that.


Tsunade standing atop Katsuyu can pretty much negate most of that.

Atop Katsuyu she'll have the height advantage, and will be able to see past his Doton wall _easily_. He also won't be able to target her with underground shenanigans if she's atop the massive slug. 



> You don't know if she could dodge all of kakashi's long ranged attacks or not, deva pein was forced to Shinra tensei Raikiri wolf, and he was fast enough to dodge even fuuton rasenshuriken.


I don't know what you mean by "Deva Pain was forced to Shinra Tensei Raikiri Wolf". He wasn't _forced_. He just did it because he could. Just like how he wasn't _forced_ to Shinra Tensei .

In any case, the range of Raikiri Wolf isn't that great. It won't reach her if Kakashi is on the ground and Tsunade is atop Katsuyu. The only jutsu is Kakashi's arsenal that could possibly reach her at that distance are his Suitons, and even then it wouldn't be hard for Tsunade to simply  into Katsuyu to protect herself from them.



> 2. Tsunade is stated to be on a similar level to the other sannin as well, but she sure as hell is not in combat equal to her peers, at least not based on what she has shown, kabuto is the same way, kakashi is a straight up combat/stealth type of shinobi, kabuto is a medical/ kenjutsu type, similar level, yes, same combat strength, no. Kabuto has never done anything but run away from kakashi with his tail between his legs.


This I agree with wholeheartedly.



> 4. That was just an afterthought, much more likely would be sasuke tossing an amaterasu in katsuyu's direction.


Katsuyu can split off any part of its body that's on fire. It would be like the Raikage cutting his arm off to prevent the spread of the jutsu. Except Katsuyu can still fight just fine if a bit of her has been split off - she might be a little smaller, that's all.



> 5. kakashi could dodge the acid by going underground, and if tsunade was near kakashi she risks being hit with it as well.


That would not be a very smart thing for Kakashi to do, given how Katsuyu's acid . It could probably melt through regular earth with more speed and depth. 



> I must reiterrate tsunades SLOW ASS PUNCHES are not hitting someone faster than her with the sharingan, it will be damn near impossible for her to land a hit on the actual kakashi. Sharingan allows people of near kakashi speed to dodge the f'ing raikage, and land chidori, tsunade's thrusts will be moving in relative slow motion.


Tsunade might not be very fast, but she's certainly not _slow_. I'd put her speed at around average, if not slightly above.

A lot of people underestimate Tsunade's taijutsu simply because she does not share the same speedy, precise style as Gai and Lee do. The reason for this is because of their difference in _style_ - Tsunade uses a slightly (or perhaps more than just slightly) different style to Gai and Lee, one that doesn't rely so heavily upon speed.

I must stress that speed alone is not the only factor that is important during close-combat. Don't get me wrong, it certainly _is_ important, but there are other factors to consider. These other factors are pretty much tantamount to Tsunade's fighting style, and quite simply, can give her the edge she needs to best Kakashi in close-quarters. If not best, then at the very least they should help her avoid being 'dominated'.

*Factor 1: Tsunade's strength*

Now before you jump in and say "what's the use of high strength when she won't have the speed to hit anybody", hear me out first.

Less 'strength-focused' fighters such as Rock Lee, etc, need to land _full hits_ if they want to deal any significant form of damage. Thus, their speed is almost crucial to their fighting style. If they only land partial hits, then it would essentially have little-to-no effect on their opponents. Lee needs the speed to be able to get close enough to his opponents to land a proper hit if he wants to hurt them.

However Tsunade, with her super-human strength, does not need to follow this rule. She does not need to get so close to an opponent that she can land a full hit on them. All she needs is enough speed to get her close enough to land a _partial hit_. 
Why? Because even a partial hit from her will hurt like hell. Glancing blows and the like can all deal a lot of damage thanks to her strength; if a single finger from Tsunade can split the ground apart, then I shudder to think how much damage she could deal even if she merely grazed her opponent.

This is where jutsu like _Ranshinshou_ come into play. Tsunade's nerve-scrambling jutsu only needs the slightest touch to be applied. So if Tsunade manages to even touch her opponent, she can literally debilitate them _immediately_. Speed goes out the window, and the battle is won. 

*Factor 2: Tsunade's resilience*

Yes, I know Tsunade hasn't shown any ridiculously overpowered defensive ninjutsu (such as Kakuzu's _Doton: Domu_, etc.), but her resilience is still quite high.

There are many examples of Tsunade's resilience, and I'll go through them below, but let's go back to the Lee comparison for now. Lee has no sort of natural resilience to damage, and no form of defense either. Yet, his fighting style requires him to get dangerously close to his opponents - so close that he constantly runs the risk of copping a well-timed counter-attack. Due to his lack of defense, the only real way he can lower this risk is by using his speed to dodge.

Tsunade, on the other hand, is not so reliant on speed. Even if she doesn't have the speed to dodge close-quarter attacks, she can simply tank the hit and counter-attack. 
Take  example. Kabuto has the speed advantage over Tsunade at this point in time (due to factors such as rustiness and tiredness). He is fast enough to get close to her, avoid her attacks, and then land the first few hits on her. However, after landing those hits, even Kabuto had to cop a counter-attack from Tsunade.

Now, replace Kabuto with a ninja who _didn't_ have the capacity to negate Tsunade's strength with their attacks. They attack Tsunade in close-quarters, and even if those attacks dealt her a lot of damage (perhaps even critical damage, like Orochimaru had done to her), Tsunade could have tanked it and counter-attacked. Counter-attacked for the kill.

Okay, so let's throw Genesis Rebirth into the equation. Genesis Rebirth only further adds to Tsunade's 'tankability' (and thus, detracts a little bit more from her reliance upon speed). It basically allows Tsunade to tank even _more_ ridiculous/critical amounts of damage without fazing her, so that she can counter-attack.

See what I mean? That is just one of an array of scenario where her regeneration can help her land a hit in close-combat. Don't underestimate the ability to counter-attack.

*Factor 3: Tsunade's evasion*

I'll be brief, but basically when I say 'evasion' I'm not referring to the ability to react quickly to an attack. I'm referring to the ability to _anticipate_ an attack and react accordingly.

There is actually quite a difference. The former requires high speed and reaction time. The latter simply requires a great deal of experience and knowledge.

Tsunade undoubtedly has a lot of experience under her belt. Decades worth of it, in fact. Correct me if I'm wrong, but she even participated in two of the three Great Ninja Wars.

Remember when Sakura battled Sasori and his Sandaime Kazekage puppet? At first, she needed Chiyo's help to evade Sasori's attacks. But eventually, she started seeing patterns and regularities in Sasori's attacks, and towards the end was even able to dodge _without _Chiyo's assistance. Now, this isn't because Sasori's attacks got any _slower_ or that Sakura got any _faster_, but rather, she was beginning to anticipate his attacks, and dodge accordingly.

Now, imagine if Sakura had as much experience as Tsunade. As in, she went out into the world, participated in many battles, and fought all kinds of different opponents. As she does so, the number of attack patterns she sees _increases_, and thus she becomes able to anticipate (and subsequently evade) an even larger array of different attack styles.

That is Tsunade.

*Factor 4: Tsunade's taijutsu skill*

I'm usually not one to rely upon databook stats - and I'm really _not_ here - but the databook puts Tsunade's skill in taijutsu at 5/5. This should come of no surprise, given what she's shown us. 

She's proven herself capable of reacting to attacks in which she had little to no forewarning [] [], manoeuvre herself about and fight in awkward positions [] [], counter-attack [] and even _shunshin_-behind attack []. She's shown the ability to attack from an awkward starting position very quickly [] and knows how - and when - to best take advantage of terrain-alteration []. She's even shown remarkable dexterity [], even managing to steal Naruto's wallet without him noticing []. Her semi-blitz of Shizune [] should not be overlooked, given Shizune's higher databook speed stat and readiness for battle at the time.

Half of those taijutsu feats were performed while Tsunade was tired out, and _all_ them were while she was still very rusty.

It's very easy to discard taijutsu skill as simply 'speed plus lethality of attacks', but in practice it is so much more. Let's look at some examples where speed and lethality of attacks are more or less equalised, so as to highlight the difference in taijutsu skill as the reason why one ninja can have the clear upper hand over the other in close-quarters combat. 

In , Sasuke clearly has the range advantage with his sword, and there's no clear disparity in speed between the two. Yet Danzō was able to land the first hit against Sasuke, most likely due to his superior skill in close-combat/hand-to-hand fighting. 

Another example would be . Sasuke and Kakashi's speed seem more or less equal here, and yet in their hand-to-hand tussle, Kakashi lands the hit. It's not as if Sasuke was too slow to react to it either, since he doesn't appear surprised by it and was even able to block. It seems as though Kakashi's timing and combat intuition (ie. he knew exactly _when _to do exactly _what_) was superior to Sasuke's here.

These are two prime examples of how taijutsu skill - paired with _experience_, which Tsunade also has over Kakashi - can give one the edge in close-quarters combat.



> 2. She didn't show enough evasion to avoid being hit by kabuto after he forced her into the air (a horrible choice of dodge btw)


How is her choice of dodging 'horrible'? The way in which Tsunade dodged not only displayed her artful skill in taijutsu, but it also allowed her to counter-attack.

Tsunade dodging the underground attack is a bit of a feat in itself. We can pretty much surmise that Kabuto's dig-Doton was incredibly fast, because if it wasn't, Tsunade would have done  to negate it. So without very much warning, Tsunade was still able to react to Kabuto's underground assault. 

Not only was she able to dodge it, but she dodged in such a way that allowed her to counter-attack. If she had dodged to the side like , given that she's a close-ranged fighter, she would not have been able to perform an effective followup attack. By dodging upwards, she was in the perfect position to slam an attack back downwards upon her opponent.

And I think it's pretty much a given that Tsunade's mid-air manoeuvring was quite a display of skill. Manoeuvring oneself in mid-jump is no easy feat, yet Tsunade was able to manoeuvre herself back down from an awkward mid-air position to swiftly counter-attack. Sure her attack missed, but the very fact that she was able to counter-attack from , missing Kabuto by a mere foot, is testament to her skill. 



> Kabuto was never pressured like your fanfic makes it seem, could have killed her,


This is false. Kabuto was clearly under a great deal of pressure at one stage of their battle. 

I've always maintained that, although it is a completely legitimate move as far as ninja are concerned, to take advantage of an opponent's phobia requires no skill whatsoever. Just knowledge and perhaps a bit of cunning. Give an academy student an edged weapon (capable of drawing blood) and knowledge of Tsunade's hematophobia, and I'm sure he'd be able to defeat her on a consistent basis.

Kabuto's initial approach to this battle was quite clear. He wanted to test himself against the former Sannin, to see how he'd perform. Thus, despite his knowledge of her hematophobia, he did not use it against her, saving it unless his situation was dire. 

Well, after being hit by Tsunade in the back of the neck, what does he do? He . He reaches for an *edged weapon*, capable of drawing blood.

He made the conscious decision to use Tsunade's hematophobia against her, and in doing so, was willing to throw his 'test of skill' right out the window. For what other reason would he have made such a sacrifice if not the fact that he was feeling pressure from Tsunade?

He later goes on to state "...in spite of all these years spent away from battle, she still has *this power*". What power? Well, he obviously must have felt that Tsunade was a powerful fighter. This acknowledgment of her power, along with his willingness to use her hematophobia against her, pretty much solidifies the fact that Kabuto _was_ feeling the heat from Tsunade, so to speak. 

I'll deal with the "could have killed her" comment below. 



daschysta said:


> she did not say that after rashinshou, she said it after he forced her into the air, cut her abdomen, and then hit her chest. The manga even flat out states he could have got her neck instead, and she was only saved by her fat breasts


I think you're missing something key here. 

After cutting Tsunade's leg and arm muscles, Tsunade was obviously having difficulty moving. Thus, the only thing she _could_ do with Kabuto's next attack was to try and block it. What does Kabuto do? He tells her about how he can kill her easily by aiming for her neck, which makes Tsunade block her neck area. She clearly does so .

Obviously this was just a feint, for what he was really aiming for was her chest, to hit her subcoastal muscle. It was all mind games; more proof of Kabuto's cunning and intelligence during battle, rather than superior combat skills. 

So could he have killed her? Not that easily. Not only was she ready to block her neck area, but even if he did succeed in hitting her neck, she still had Genesis Rebirth up her sleeve. 



> Sharingan will allow him to do THAT, except in this case it will be much much easier than when sasuke did it, due to how much faster the raikiri's elbow is compared to tsunades sluggish punches.


Don't underestimate Tsunade's ability to tank damage and counter-attack. Sure, Kakashi's speed and Sharingan prediction will give him the edge over her in close-quarters, but it will only take him so far. Once he's very close to her, dodging becomes more difficult, especially if his arm is planted within her body. Here are a few manga examples to illustrate what I mean.

Example 1:
Because of Tsunade's rusty and tired out state, Kabuto had the edge over her in close-combat. He landed the first hit upon her, but Tsunade was able to  swiftly. If she'd been hit by a *non* strength-negating attack, that counter-attack would have crippled or even killed right there and then.

Example 2:
In a similar example, a tired (hampered movement) and rusty (hampered movement) Tsunade, who had just had her leg muscles cut (hampered movement) and subcoastal muscle injured (greatly hampered movement - according to Kabuto it should "stop a person in their tracks"), was able to get up off her knees, run to and behind Kabuto, and  in the second or so he held his eyes shut. That is, of course, unless you believe that Kabuto kept his eyes shut for the entire duration of his spiel; not a very prudent belief, given that it would only have taken him a second or so to push his glasses up.

Example 3:
Tsunade was rusty, tired out, had her leg muscles cut, a potentially unhealed subcoastal muscle injury, various cuts and bruises from Kabuto's assault, a slash from Kusanagi up her shoulder, across her torso and through her chest, and yet we discover that the only thing that was _really_ hampering her movement - and subsequently stopping her from attacking - was her hematophobia. Why? Because she gets up off the ground (from an ) and  the moment she overcomes it. And this was an Orochimaru who was watching her intently enough to notice that her trembling had stopped.

Example 4:
Finally, Tsunade was hit with _Chou Shinra Tensei_ without the protection of Katsuyu, and was still able to move relatively well afterward, . This is the same jutsu that had enough force to crush all of the buildings in Konoha, and send the entire village *hundreds of meters below ground level*. And we discover that the main thing hampering Tsunade from fighting was not the injuries she'd sustained from being hit with his force, but rather chakra exhaustion. 

I think the above four examples have pretty solidly established the fact Tsunade has a fair bit of resilience to damage. She's been able to 'tank' (and I use this term loosely, in full recognition of the various meanings it might hold) incredibly amounts of damage in the past - damage that would have easily killed lesser nins - and still move and fight relatively well afterward.

And I haven't even _mentioned_ Genesis Rebirth yet. With her regenerative jutsu, she can essentially ignore most forms of physical damage for a good three minutes plus. Imagine if Tsunade had her regeneration going in Scenario 1. Kabuto attacks her muscles, only to have them regenerate _instantly_, such that Tsunade's counter-attack actually hurts. Kills, even.

Being hit by Raikiri will without a doubt be a major hindrance to Tsunade, don't get me wrong. But I don't see it alone taking her out. Her taijutsu skill and experience should allow her to _at least_ dodge a blow to her head, and if Kakashi plants his hand into any other part of her body, she'll be able to either tank or regenerate it, and subsequently counter-attack to cripple or kill. 

And what if Katsuyu is in play? And seeing as both Orochimaru and Jiraiya can use Kage Bunshin, they can quite easily aid her without distracting themselves from their own battles (this is assuming they even split up in the first place). Que all the battle synergies, tactics and precision timing Tsunade and her Sannin counterparts would have perfected during their decades of experience fighting alongside one another. Same goes for any summons Orochimaru and Jiraiya decide to send her way.



> 5. You don't think she would die if she takes a raikiri to her face? You don't think she dies if her head is chopped off with this?


Hitting Tsunade in the head is not going to be so easy. Tsunade's no pushover when it comes to taijutsu, and she knows that he knows about her weakness. There are also some steps she could take to avoid being decapitated.

If she knows he's about to execute a lethal attack, she could preemptively activate her regeneration. As the  goes, once the jutsu is active, the chakra leaves her forehead seal and spreads throughout the regenerative enzymes in her body, activating and invigorating them with chakra. These enzymes will then be responsible for regenerating any damage to her limbs and organs. So if the jutsu is active, her head should be able to regenerate. 

She could also play it safe and stay atop Katsuyu. If Kakashi tries to fight her atop Katsuyu, he could be at a severe disadvantage. Katsuyu can actively disrupt his movements by partial-splitting the parts of her body that Kakashi attempts to stand upon, or even meld him into her (Swamp of the Underworld style). 

Personally, I'm quite confident with Tsunade's taijutsu ability when it comes to keeping her head on.



daschysta said:


> Tsunade _was_ out of practice, but she states that kabuto may well be stronger than her in her prime, meaning that even at her best state she was not much higher than kabuto anyway. The same kabuto that admitted he was bad at taijutsu.


I don't think you're grasping the full extent of Tsunade's rustiness here. And if you are, you're probably underestimating how much it was potentially hindering her here.

Tsunade not only quit being a ninja for over a decade and a half. She quit fighting altogether. Hell, she even began , rather than face them off. Sure, she created a new medical ninjutsu, but that would not have given her any sort of offensive workout whatsoever.

Abstaining from fighting/offensive practice alone is bad enough. Not only did she do this, but Tsunade spent most of her nights drinking excessively. For over a decade. There is no doubt in my mind that her alcohol abuse would have worsened her already deteriorating condition. Hell, even Kishimoto is clear to emphasise this as Tsunade's major handicap, as it is acknowledged several times throughout the arc (by Jiraiya, Tsunade herself, and ).

If you want an example, take a top ten tennis player. Ban them from touching a tennis racquet, or even from doing simple daily exercise, for over fifteen years. Force them to abuse their body with alcohol every few days during this fifteen year period. Then force them to run and strain their muscles until they're completely out of breath, drag them onto a tennis court, and pit them against a professional player (not necessarily world ranked, but I'm trying to find a tennis world equivalent of 'Jounin-level' here). How do you think they'd perform? Not too great, I'd say.

Whilst I agree that it's difficult to accurately gauge Tsunade's close-combat lethality _now_, I think it'd be fair to say that she would have improved quite significantly from her form against Kabuto.

Instead of drinking alcohol, she's taken to drinking . She even  after the latter suggests they go drinking, and although she eventually gives in to her old comrade's charms, the very fact that she was so opposed to the notion initially speaks volumes for how much her drinking habits have changed. We also know that, despite the Hokage position appearing to be more of a desk job, Tsunade _has_ at the very least been getting light workouts whilst training Sakura. , too.

Kabuto did not say he was _bad_ at taijutsu. He simply stated that it was not his forte - and if you look at his databook stats, he's not lying. Ninjutsu and genjutsu are his fortes. Comparatively, his taijutsu is not great compared to them. However, this does not make him _bad_. In fact, his taijutsu isn't bad at all. 
Judging from the battles where Kabuto has had killing intent (ie. vs "Sasori", vs Sai, vs Team Yamato), we can see that he still continues to rely heavily upon close-combat, wielding his chakra scalpels and knives. It should be of no surprise, then, that he is able to use taijutsu at a level that allows him to keep up with Tsunade, albeit a rusty, tired out one.

I'll deal with the "she states that Kabuto is stronger than her in her prime" comment below.



> When would she shatter the ground, before the exchange? In that case why would that preven kakashi from dodging? Unless you think he is going to trip or something lol, a ground smashing attack aimed at him? He will casually avoid it.


Don't forget that this is a team battle. Kakashi may very well not be in a position to execute a dig-Doton attack upon here in the first place. She could be sitting atop Katsuyu, or some giant frog or snake, or even a Rashoumon gate. Especially with full knowledge of Kakashi's tendencies towards underground shenanigans, I highly doubt Tsunade would stand around waiting for him to appear.

There's also the fact that Tsunade has shown the ability to dodge near-instantaneous underground attacks before. And if she knows Kakashi is underground (information that can easily be conveyed by a Detection Barrier-wielding Jiraiya or Jiraiya KB), she can preemptively uncover him like Sakura did during the second bell test.



> 7. You just keep repeating if kakashi is that close then she can one shot him, despite her hits not oneshotting kabuto,


Her muscles were cut. 

Orochimaru  that one hit from Tsunade could kill Kabuto (and note how he is referring to Kabuto, _not_ himself). He said with full knowledge of Kabuto's self-healing ability, which means Tsunade's punches most certainly do pack a great deal of power.

And I wouldn't doubt Orochimaru's words here. This is a man who's fought alongside Tsunade for decades, who knows and has seen the full extent of Tsunade's strength countless times. Given that Orochimaru really has no motive to overstate Tsunade's lethality here, and his past with her, I'd trust this statement.



> or oneshotting oro,


Orochimaru is one of the most damage-resilient nins in the entire Narutoverse. This is the guy who got back up and ate Sasuke after seemingly  by him. The guy who laughs off all sorts of damage thanks to his regeneration and natural 'hardiness'. The very fact that Tsunade was able to knock Orochimaru out for a few seconds (whereas hits like  didn't even faze him) is a testament to her power.


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 24, 2010)

hmm suu while i agree with you and due to kamui restriction tsunade is kakashi's superior in this scenerio, due you think she can down kakashi as fast as itachi can down oro to even the odds? because i believe thats one of the reasons why team sanin loses


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## Stermor (May 24, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> hmm suu while i agree with you and due to kamui restriction tsunade is kakashi's superior in this scenerio, due you think she can down kakashi as fast as itachi can down oro to even the odds? because i believe thats one of the reasons why team sanin loses



do you believe that kakashi or itachi would not run back and make a proper plan before engaging any of the sannin especsially when jiriaya starts in hermit mode

the way i see the battle going. is itachi and kakashi retreating and making a proper plan. while sasuke canonly pulls out susanoo and starts blasting.. 
i don't think sasuke and the other will have any teamwork. 

that basicaly means sasuke versus all of the sannins in the start means dead sasuke real fast. then you have itachi and kakashi versus the sannin. 

also why would the sannin make it indivual fights. there teamwork is what gives them the fight.


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 24, 2010)

Stermor said:


> do you believe that kakashi or itachi would not run back and make a proper plan before engaging any of the sannin especsially when jiriaya starts in hermit mode
> 
> the way i see the battle going. is itachi and kakashi retreating and making a proper plan. while sasuke canonly pulls out susanoo and starts blasting..
> i don't think sasuke and the other will have any teamwork.
> ...



Your being unfair why would we assume that kakashi itachi and sasuke have no teamwork and the sanin has full when they havent fought together in years?

and itachi already defeated oro more then once without the need to retreat and creat a plan.

The way i see this going is sasuke taking on jiraiya since he will likley be able to handle hm with susano

kakashi taking on tsunade because he doesnt stand a chance against oro or jiraiya and itachi taking on oro and itachi will down oro rather swiftly and help the rest of his team out


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## Stermor (May 24, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> Your being unfair why would we assume that kakashi itachi and sasuke have no teamwork and the sanin has full when they havent fought together in years?
> 
> and itachi already defeated oro more then once without the need to retreat and creat a plan.
> 
> ...



well i can see good teamwork between itachi and kakashi. but you really see sasuke with 2 persons who he seen as superior to him and wants to kill. also sasuke is dumb as a brick. 

even then provided they have decent teamwork will they be able to break up the sannin?? the sannin likely have the best teamwork in the entire ninja world (based on experience and skill) 

also sasuke wouldn't occupy Jiraiya in hm. sasuke will be fighting clones from oro/jiraiya. If sannin are smart they would focus on Itachi or even kakashi. they might come up with a plan to take the sannin down. Sasuke is just brute force but that would be useless against the sannin. 

the way i see it sasuke will be occupied/killed by clones basically stalling/ draining sasuke chakra. which would take 10 minuts or so based on danzo's fight. i can easily see clones + summons stalling sasuke for 10 minuts.


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 24, 2010)

Stermor said:


> well i can see good teamwork between itachi and kakashi. but you really see sasuke with 2 persons who he seen as superior to him and wants to kill. also sasuke is dumb as a brick.
> 
> even then provided they have decent teamwork will they be able to break up the sannin?? the sannin likely have the best teamwork in the entire ninja world (based on experience and skill)
> 
> ...


lmaooo although i agree with you that sasuke is a tard, i think in this scenerio for the sake of debate, both sides are utilizing team work ,but your right the sanin team work will ultimatley be better.

see the problem with the sanin staying together is amatarasu, they will have no defense from it, its better if they seperate.


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## Stermor (May 24, 2010)

also woudl oro really be beaten so fast if he has tsunade and jiriaya with him. genjutsu won't work since ofcourse tsunade will have a slug on them. we all know that oro is a bad match against itachi. actualy none of them are a good match against Itachi solo(altough Jiraiya might still pull a win solo). but thats the fun part of a team battle. your not alone 

Itachi by himself might have several plans to kill one of the sannin. the same with kakashi. but do you realy think either of them made plans which incoporate the other?? 
the sannin likely have. and if they didn't they fought with each other so long they will be able to adapt in battle.


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 24, 2010)

Stermor said:


> also woudl oro really be beaten so fast if he has tsunade and jiriaya with him. genjutsu won't work since ofcourse tsunade will have a slug on them. we all know that oro is a bad match against itachi. actualy none of them are a good match against Itachi solo(altough Jiraiya might still pull a win solo). but thats the fun part of a team battle. your not alone
> 
> Itachi by himself might have several plans to kill one of the sannin. the same with kakashi. but do you realy think either of them made plans which incoporate the other??
> the sannin likely have. and if they didn't they fought with each other so long they will be able to adapt in battle.



There is know none way to counter itachi's tsukiyomi without sharingon this was stated by kakahsi, so even if itachi doesnt physically kill him quick he will disable him from the fight quicker then either of the other sannin can kill sasuke or kakashi thats my point.


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## Stermor (May 24, 2010)

amaterasu is only a tempory problem. they can easily block amaterasu. then it just a question of making a seal to suck it up. if i was  jiriaya i would make 2 clones for that purpose alone. 

i don't think it will take more then a few second for them to get back together. and as i said in the previous post i don't think that team sharingan will be able to take one of them down in that time. 

i'm fairly sure that sannins have been split up before and managed to survive.


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 24, 2010)

Stermor said:


> amaterasu is only a tempory problem. they can easily block amaterasu. then it just a question of making a seal to suck it up. if i was  jiriaya i would make 2 clones for that purpose alone.
> 
> i don't think it will take more then a few second for them to get back together. and as i said in the previous post i don't think that team sharingan will be able to take one of them down in that time.
> 
> i'm fairly sure that sannins have been split up before and managed to survive.



it takes time to seal them, that will defitnley leave jiraiya open, and that is the logical thing to do but we still dont know if jiraiya would do that


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## Stermor (May 24, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> There is know none way to counter itachi's tsukiyomi without sharingon this was stated by kakahsi, so even if itachi doesnt physically kill him quick he will disable him from the fight quicker then either of the other sannin can kill sasuke or kakashi thats my point.



as i see it itachi tsukiyomi will be canceled as soon as possible by slug. might take a fractino of a second. so tsukiyomi will do some damage. but the way i see it in that time the damage will not be to bad(likely still knock oro out). but tsunade will be able to heal it and get oro battle ready again. 

another option would be tsunade sending chakra through the slugs constanly. just enough to make sure no genjutsu will effect anyone. she did send medical chakra through her slugs to all of konoha. this should be something she can do for 3 people in battle aswell. 

also if itachi tsukiyomi jiriaya will ofcourse use some jutsu to attack and use the opening itachi leaves while casting the jutsu. its tick for tack. just that the sannins can likely deal with anything but itachi's susanoo like that failry easy.



Lelouchprince3 said:


> it takes time to seal them, that will defitnley leave jiraiya open, and that is the logical thing to do but we still dont know if jiraiya would do that



sure it would take some time the first time. (maybe 30 second to write the seal) like in the manga. since jiriaya used the method before i can't see why he wouldn't do it. also why wouldn't he use a clone when he fighting a difficult battle.


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 24, 2010)

Stermor said:


> sure it would take some time the first time. (maybe 30 second to write the seal) like in the manga. since jiriaya used the method before i can't see why he wouldn't do it. also why wouldn't he use a clone when he fighting a difficult battle.



if he didnt use it against pein i find it unlikley he would against only 3 opponents.


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## Stermor (May 24, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> if he didnt use it against pein i find it unlikley he would against only 3 opponents.



why would he ?? pein has shown no serious fire jutsu's. and while not seen in hte manga i think in the anime Jiriaya has shown to use clones (with gamaken) against pein just to distract pein. i'm not completly clear on the fight might be that it is also in the manga. 

still it should show that jiriaya uses clones.


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## justarandomguy (May 24, 2010)

Stermor said:


> as i see it itachi tsukiyomi will be canceled as soon as possible by slug. might take a fractino of a second. so tsukiyomi will do some damage. but the way i see it in that time the damage will not be to bad(likely still knock oro out). but tsunade will be able to heal it and get oro battle ready again.
> 
> another option would be tsunade sending chakra through the slugs constanly. just enough to make sure no genjutsu will effect anyone. she did send medical chakra through her slugs to all of konoha. this should be something she can do for 3 people in battle aswell.
> 
> also if itachi tsukiyomi jiriaya will ofcourse use some jutsu to attack and use the opening itachi leaves while casting the jutsu. its tick for tack. just that the sannins can likely deal with anything but itachi's susanoo like that failry easy.



itachi has finger justu, which makes the sannin lose some precious seconds. what counter do the sannin have for amaterasu? the more i think about it, the bigger margin i see team sharingan winning by. they can control space almost instantenously, have solid long and close ranges attacks, the sharingan, TWO (2!!) susano's, one combantant with EMS, and amaterasu, which seems pretty unblockable. tsunade can release infuin kai, but she becomes a useless old bag. this is a maybe, but if itachi busts out the susano before katsuyu arrives, he can seal it before it can clone itself. and lol about the sannin dealing with anything, kakashi can control space itself, and he is the weakest on team sharingan.


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## Lightysnake (May 24, 2010)

For amaterasu, they have Katsuyu and Jiraiya's sealing from part 1. Katsuyu should be able to survive it. Easy. And I doubt Ephemeral will work ont he Sannin for even a heartbeat


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 24, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> For amaterasu, they have Katsuyu and Jiraiya's sealing from part 1. Katsuyu should be able to survive it. Easy. And I doubt Ephemeral will work ont he Sannin for even a heartbeat



well given that the sanin work together it makes this interesting and hard to call , how do you purpose they will avoid the arrows?


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## Lightysnake (May 24, 2010)

Well, I don't think they cna avoid them, but fight smart-and the Sannin fight smart- then Katsuyu, Bunshin and Orochimaru not even being phased by having something like the arrow through him and it gets a bit more even there


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## Stermor (May 25, 2010)

why do people doubt sannins can't deal with amaterasu or even susanoo arrows. oro just summons a rashomon gate and well line of sight is lost. or they use a summon or they use a large ammount of earth from a tsunade heel drop. 

also does anyone think orochimaru can make sasuke angry enough that he will lose all reason and chase a couple mud clones arround shooting susanoo's arrows at them. i can easily see that happening. 

the only problem i can see is itachi's susanoo. he is smart enough to use it well and well 1 hit kill and can't be destroyed. 

the only way i can see the sannins deal with it is by running away and rashomon gates to negate line of sight. or use reverse summons. then send in a couple clones to have itachi spend as much chakra as possible on them. 

finger genjutsu should be a minor problem. tsunades slug shoudl be on all of them. and the sannins can easily cover for each other for those few seconds. also if itachi uses it ones i will mean sannins will know about it(maybe oro already does) and it becomes useless. 

but lets look at it from another direction. what would happen if kakashi gets caught like animal realm at the end of the pain fight?? if pain couldn't counter it no way kakashi can. 

or what will team sharingan do against gamaya endan+ acid + whatever other toads can do. or do you think team sharingan can stop jiriaya who's already in hermit mode from completing frog song?? while he has two other sannins guarding him and Jiriaya isn't excatly weak himself.



justarandomguy said:


> itachi has finger justu, which makes the sannin lose some precious seconds. what counter do the sannin have for amaterasu? the more i think about it, the bigger margin i see team sharingan winning by. they can control space almost instantenously, have solid long and close ranges attacks, the sharingan, TWO (2!!) susano's, one combantant with EMS, and amaterasu, which seems pretty unblockable. tsunade can release infuin kai, but she becomes a useless old bag. this is a maybe, but if itachi busts out the susano before katsuyu arrives, he can seal it before it can clone itself. and lol about the sannin dealing with anything, kakashi can control space itself, and he is the weakest on team sharingan.



amaterasu was dealt with in many other posts. it won't be more then a minor inconvience. uhm sasuke is the weakest person on team sharingan his mindset and mental stability are to easily exploited. kakashi while combat wise maybe the weakest he has a proper mindset and is therefor way more dangerous against opponents like the sannin (who can and will use taunts and other stuff to make sasuke crazy) 

also kamui is banned (it would make a great equalizer since it can't realy be countered)


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## Nikushimi (May 25, 2010)

Itachi is an Uchiha with Sharingan and the most talented Genjutsu user in the entire manga. He breaks Magen: Gamarinshou like a hickory stick, not that the Ni Dai Sennin will have the luxury of being able to cast it in an environment like the one prescribed, which offers no place to run and hide.

Sennin Jiraiya is troublesome, but Tsukuyomi should do the trick. Orochimaru is jailbait after that. While Itachi's raping him, Kakashi and Sasuke gang-neg Tsunade OBD-style.

Team Sharingan Itachi babyshakes.


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## Aoshi (May 25, 2010)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi is an Uchiha with Sharingan and the most talented Genjutsu user in the entire manga. He breaks Magen: Gamarinshou like a hickory stick, not that the Ni Dai Sennin will have the luxury of being able to cast it in an environment like the one prescribed, which offers no place to run and hide.
> 
> Sennin Jiraiya is troublesome, but Tsukuyomi should do the trick. Orochimaru is jailbait after that. While Itachi's raping him, Kakashi and Sasuke gang-neg Tsunade OBD-style.
> 
> Team Sharingan Itachi babyshakes.



Tsukuyomi will do nothing considering that the Ni Dai Sennin are constantly pumping Natural Chakra through Jiraiya.


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

It's posts like that that remind me why I ignore most of Nikushimi's posts now


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## Tengu (May 25, 2010)

KnownTitanKid said:


> Tsukuyomi will do nothing considering that the Ni Dai Sennin are constantly pumping Natural Chakra through Jiraiya.



False they are pumping *natural energy* into Jiraiya, not chakra.

You use that energy to make the chakra:


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## Sanbi (May 25, 2010)

That doesn't mean they can't pump chakra into him, does it? With full knowledge I don't think it would be that hard to visualize it.


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## Tengu (May 25, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> That doesn't mean they can't pump chakra into him, does it? With full knowledge I don't think it would be that hard to visualize it.



For normal genjutsu sure, but the guy was referring to Tsukuyomi, which is instant.


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

We've seen what natural energy can work like. It could break the genjutsu still and there's no reason shima and Fukasaku can't break them


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## Sanbi (May 25, 2010)

If they are constantly pumping chakra into him it won't matter how long it takes for it to happen, it will be broken before it even has time to start.


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

Kakashi stronger than Tsunade?

Le Sigh


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## Sanbi (May 25, 2010)

Read  and tell me Kakashi is stronger then Tsunade.


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

Sanbi, save that and post it in any Kakashi vs. Tsunade arguments


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## Sanbi (May 25, 2010)

You did not read the post in that short amount of time. Reading it will do you great good in your delusions. Oh and summons are involved and with Katsuyu, she is > Kakashi. 

She still hasn't had a decent fight either.


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

Yeah, worth noting Jiraiya named Kabuto as being as on Kakashi's level.

Look what Kabuto needed to win. And he's a medical nin. Who else could've figured out their nervous system like that?


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

So...Tsunade's immobile there?


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## Sanbi (May 25, 2010)

Because, you know, it isn't like Katsuyu can spit large amounts acid or move around or anything. Katsuyu just happens to sit there then.


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## Aoshi (May 25, 2010)

Destroyer123 said:


> If she is on Katsuyu kakashi wont attack her. He would likely help out itachi and sasuke finish off Jiraya or orochimaru while Tsunade sits atop of Katsuyu.



Okay, I'm sorry to interrupt here, but this is one of the funniest posts I've seen on this forum.

You believe that she can't move when she is on top of Katsuyu?


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

It's....a creative argument


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

I will ask for the comments on Kakashi's speed.


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## Sanbi (May 25, 2010)

It doesn't matter how fast he is, he isn't dodging an entire pool of acidic spit when you think he isn't even focusing on Tsunade.


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## Aoshi (May 25, 2010)

Destroyer123 said:


> kakashi can dodge the acid he is super fast i remember pain and Madara commenting on his speed, and Katsuyu is a snail so its super slow.



Um....what? Katsuyu is super slow because she is a snail? ROFL!!!


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

Let's ignore him, shall we?


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## Aoshi (May 25, 2010)

I might have to quote some of his posts in my signature.


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## Sanbi (May 25, 2010)

What basis is Kakashi being stronger then Tsunade on? You liking him more? If you have any arguments, I am sure they are flawed and Suu's post has an answer.

You didn't read it did you.


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

He didn't read it then. He won't now


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## Sanbi (May 25, 2010)

I'll be happy to quote specific parts to counter his arguments though.


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

Ah, looks like he was banned.


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## Final Jutsu (May 25, 2010)

sannin.. Frog song and swamp of the underworld are extremely broken in this encounter..


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## daschysta (May 25, 2010)

It appears that mistranslation was the culprit for my faulty argument based tsunade's comment. While this does not prove the argument one way or another, i'll remove myself for a while.

Thanks for the detective work legendary.


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

Well, glad to hear you can acknowldge and look things over, Daschysta


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## Akimichi Farley (May 25, 2010)

If Kakashi were stronger than any of the Sannin and specifically Tsunade, or even equal in strength, or even less than equal but only marginally so, then Konoha would have just made him Hokage instead of launching a month(s?) long mission to track down someone who was considered unanimously to be a stronger candidate even in spite of having abandoned the shinobi lifestyle for years. 

Kakashi is way out of his league here. With Kamui restricted he is larglely a non-factor. Itachi is the only one of Team sharingan that can honestly go toe to toe with any of the Sannin, and even though Sasuke is not at that level yet he is still better equipped (hand-me-down haxx powerups lol) to do so that our beloved copycat ninja. team sannin clearly have the edge.


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## Nikushimi (May 25, 2010)

KnownTitanKid said:


> Tsukuyomi will do nothing considering that the Ni Dai Sennin are constantly pumping Natural Chakra through Jiraiya.



They draw in natural energy, which Jiraiya molds with his own chakra to use for Senjutsu. It's not the same. A steady intake of chakra to augment the existing flow isn't the same thing as an application of chakra used in a concerted effort to disrupt it. They are just making Jiraiya's chakra stronger, not doing anything to disturb it.



Lightysnake said:


> It's posts like that that remind me why I ignore most of Nikushimi's posts now



What's the matter? Can't handle the truth? Or are you as disgusted with someone who doesn't enjoy bashing Itachi as much as you do, as I am with, well...people who enjoy bashing Itachi as much as you do? 

Face facts. Orochimaru and Jiraiya are equals. If Oro didn't stand a chance against Itachi, Jiraiya isn't going to do any better.


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## Complete_Ownage (May 25, 2010)

Nikushimi said:


> Face facts. Orochimaru and Jiraiya are equals. If Oro didn't stand a chance against Itachi, Jiraiya isn't going to do any better.



1)Nothing states orochimaru or Jiraiya our equals or for that matter Tsunade as well besides being labeled "the legendary sannin".  All they hold is a familiar title. Manga evidence provides other wise as well

2) Orochimaru does not = Jiraiya. Fail logic. Totally different characters and fighting techniques. Thats like saying bee would steam roll Itachi like he did sasuke since they our similar


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## Nikushimi (May 25, 2010)

Complete_Ownage said:


> 1)Nothing states orochimaru or Jiraiya our equals or for that matter Tsunade as well besides being labeled "the legendary sannin".  All they hold is a familiar title. Manga evidence provides other wise as well
> 
> 2) Orochimaru does not = Jiraiya. Fail logic. Totally different characters and fighting techniques. Thats like saying bee would steam roll Itachi like he did sasuke since they our similar



1. Orochimaru and Jiraiya are analogous to Sasuke and Naruto respectively. They share that relationship of equality as rivals, just like their apprentices. It's not only suggested by their roles as characters in the manga, it's also supported when they both fight under handicaps and Oro says the result would be no different if they were fighting without those handicaps.

2. Sasuke was a dry flake of shit baking on the sidewalk compared to Itachi back then due to having shoddy skill with his Mangekyou Sharingan, so your comparison is invalid. Orochimaru and Jiraiya have many similarities in their fighting styles, and there is little if any significant difference between them in power. The only way to defend Jiraiya here without completely ignoring the royal ass-rapings Orochimaru has been subjected to by Itachi is to make the assertion that Jiraiya is just that much better than Orochimaru. Are you prepared to go there?


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

Oh, look, A>B>C logic. 

Do Orochimaru and Jiraiya share the same moveset and fighting style? No? Okay then. Orochimaru also hasn't shown he knows about Sennin Mode to boot. Jiraiya's also never contradicted him because he's shown he has no desire to get into dick measuring contests with opponents when he has to fight and he has serious esteem issues besides.

But I don't think HE needs to make an assertion. According to Gottheim and NJT's translation, Itachi has already made it for him


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## Stermor (May 26, 2010)

look orochimaru has only 1 thing(other then tostuka but that lethal to all) he can't easily deal with and that is itachi superior genjutsu skills. and itachi cutting off oro's hand won't really do much at the moment. oro would laugh off getting his hand cut off. 

oro couldn't escape itachi genjutsu in time. but he could if given only a little more time. now add in jiraiya and tsunade and a bunch of summons. anyone think oro should have sufficient time to get out of the genjutsu. also there is only one thing itachi has that can kill oro and that is totsuka. itachi susanoo is his last resort his most powerful tool and it drains him quit a bit. 

i would go so far that no one can match itachi during his time in susanoo. but plenty of people can outlast him. 

oro's weakness against itachi genjutsu will not fodderize oro in this battle. i believe that the sannins are perfectly capable of covering for oro the seconds he needs to get out of the genjutsu. 

and will genjutsu even effect them if tsunade is constanly suplying them with chakra through her slugs?? 

if people think the match will be won by itachi fodderizing oro with genjutsu it just won't happen.


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## Butt Hole lol (May 26, 2010)

Akimichi Farley said:


> If Kakashi were stronger than any of the Sannin and specifically Tsunade, or even equal in strength, or even less than equal but only marginally so, then Konoha would have just made him Hokage instead of launching a month(s?) long mission to track down someone who was considered unanimously to be a stronger candidate even in spite of having abandoned the shinobi lifestyle for years.
> 
> Kakashi is way out of his league here. With Kamui restricted he is larglely a non-factor. Itachi is the only one of Team sharingan that can honestly go toe to toe with any of the Sannin, and even though Sasuke is not at that level yet he is still better equipped (hand-me-down haxx powerups lol) to do so that our beloved copycat ninja. team sannin clearly have the edge.



nice, living 300 chapters in past eh?


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## daschysta (May 26, 2010)

Akimichi Farley said:


> If Kakashi were stronger than any of the Sannin and specifically Tsunade, or even equal in strength, or even less than equal but only marginally so, then Konoha would have just made him Hokage instead of launching a month(s?) long mission to track down someone who was considered unanimously to be a stronger candidate even in spite of having abandoned the shinobi lifestyle for years.
> 
> Kakashi is way out of his league here. With Kamui restricted he is larglely a non-factor. Itachi is the only one of Team sharingan that can honestly go toe to toe with any of the Sannin, and even though Sasuke is not at that level yet he is still better equipped (hand-me-down haxx powerups lol) to do so that our beloved copycat ninja. team sannin clearly have the edge.



I dunno that that is relevant anymore, that was a long time ago, and since then tsunade herself and jiraiya have admitted that kakashi is comfortably kage level. Tsunade was even willing to risk her own death, because she was confident enough in kakashi's abilities to take over.

Back then konoha's elders to find a hokage that was a sannin was also quite nepotistic, as often it appears desirable to find a kage with a direct link to the previous one, so a sannin would make sense as a direct student of the third.

Also keep in mind that it was jiraiya they really wanted, and that tsunade was brought up only after jiriaya volunteered her not only for the job, but to go find her himself.

I imagine that if he had not volunteered her it would once again be between kakashi and danzou for the seat of hokage, even in part one.


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## Lightysnake (May 26, 2010)

Tsunade had to be confirmed though. Back in part 1, Kakashi wasn't even a consideration.

And I suspect Danzo was too grief stricken over Hiruzen to try to grab the seat just then. Man had to feel horribly guilty.


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 27, 2010)

being hokage is determined by more then just strenght and in anycase kakashi would be the hokage if tsunade was to pass away


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## justarandomguy (May 28, 2010)

Stermor said:


> look orochimaru has only 1 thing(other then tostuka but that lethal to all) he can't easily deal with and that is itachi superior genjutsu skills. and itachi cutting off oro's hand won't really do much at the moment. oro would laugh off getting his hand cut off.
> 
> oro couldn't escape itachi genjutsu in time. but he could if given only a little more time. now add in jiraiya and tsunade and a bunch of summons. anyone think oro should have sufficient time to get out of the genjutsu. also there is only one thing itachi has that can kill oro and that is totsuka. itachi susanoo is his last resort his most powerful tool and it drains him quit a bit.
> 
> ...



since oro cant fight susano+yata+totsuka HE CANT FIGHT ITACHI!!!!!!!!!! GET THIS INTO YOUR THICK SKULLS EVERYONE!!!! itachi is out of oros league as shown here: 
and here:
very little has been said about itachi's genjustu "fodderizing" oro. his MS techiniques are so powerful by themselves that they can wipe the floor with oro. amaterasu can force oro to do oral rebirth, and susano+TB means that oro's oral rebirth is insignificant. you admit oro has no counter for MS, so why do you defend his strength?


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## Lightysnake (May 28, 2010)

Y'know, Oro has at least 4 Oral Rebirths while Itachi can manage two Amaterasus.

Plus, Rashomon Gates. If Itachi is fighting an Orochimaru ready for him, tha tis not an easy victory


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## Stermor (May 28, 2010)

justarandomguy said:


> since oro cant fight susano+yata+totsuka HE CANT FIGHT ITACHI!!!!!!!!!! GET THIS INTO YOUR THICK SKULLS EVERYONE!!!! itachi is out of oros league as shown here:
> and here:
> very little has been said about itachi's genjustu "fodderizing" oro. his MS techiniques are so powerful by themselves that they can wipe the floor with oro. amaterasu can force oro to do oral rebirth, and susano+TB means that oro's oral rebirth is insignificant. you admit oro has no counter for MS, so why do you defend his strength?



uhm i said the only thiink he doesn't have a counter for is susanoo... but oro does have way to let him survive that (he doesn't need to attack itachi in a teambattle) oro can just put some rashomon gates in between him and itachi
which would give oro plenty of time get out of itachi's range..

what i would do is lure sasuke away and have hum use up all his ms attacks on useless targets(clones). then the sannins will likely use a serious attack(massive summon army) on itachi to distract him for a while. then use the combined might of the sannins to take down kakashi. then we have itachi left versus the sannins who should not have any serieus injury's..


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## justarandomguy (May 29, 2010)

Stermor said:


> uhm i said the only thiink he doesn't have a counter for is susanoo... but oro does have way to let him survive that (he doesn't need to attack itachi in a teambattle) oro can just put some rashomon gates in between him and itachi
> which would give oro plenty of time get out of itachi's range..
> 
> what i would do is lure sasuke away and have hum use up all his ms attacks on useless targets(clones). then the sannins will likely use a serious attack(massive summon army) on itachi to distract him for a while. then use the combined might of the sannins to take down kakashi. then we have itachi left versus the sannins who should not have any serieus injury's..



sharingan see's chakra as colors. he would know if there were clones in the area. if itachi seals all those summons, the sannin have sent all their chakra down the gudder for nothing. i dont understand how the sannin can take on susano. it fodderizes them all.


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## machiavelli2009 (May 29, 2010)

i frankly agree with the post above
and none of them have shown kamui dodging abilities...
ama i know oro can tank that. 
tskuyomi none of them can even think of tanking that...
team sannin die like chunnins..lolz


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## Aoshi (May 29, 2010)

justarandomguy said:


> sharingan see's chakra as colors. he would know if there were clones in the area. if itachi seals all those summons, the sannin have sent all their chakra down the gudder for nothing. i dont understand how the sannin can take on susano. it fodderizes them all.



He would not be able to tell the clones from the real user. All the clones will have to same chakra as the user because Kage-Bunshin splits the user's chakra evenly. The summons can easily dodge Itachi's Susano.


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## machiavelli2009 (May 29, 2010)

no proof summons could easily dodge itachi susanoo....did u think the snakes from yata thought it was cool to be cut down???
susanoo is more manoeuvrable than any giant summon....and sasuke susanoo would beat them to the ground. yata mirror can reflect attacks...hope bunta doesnt want to use any giant fire combo...or manda might just get to eat some burnt toad early...
and hold on..how about the team work of the sannin??
its poor...manda hates bunta.


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## Aoshi (May 29, 2010)

machiavelli2009 said:


> no proof summons could easily dodge itachi susanoo....did u think the snakes from yata thought it was cool to be cut down???
> susanoo is more manoeuvrable than any giant summon....and sasuke susanoo would beat them to the ground. yata mirror can reflect attacks...hope bunta doesnt want to use any giant fire combo...or manda might just get to eat some burnt toad early...
> and hold on..how about the team work of the sannin??
> its poor...manda hates bunta.



Show me a speed feat that Susano has that can compare to Bunta dodging Shukaku's attack. The snakes are controlled by Orochimaru. Orochimaru obviously thought that nothing Itachi had could kill him.


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## Stermor (May 29, 2010)

machiavelli2009 said:


> i frankly agree with the post above
> and none of them have shown kamui dodging abilities...
> ama i know oro can tank that.
> tskuyomi none of them can even think of tanking that...
> team sannin die like chunnins..lolz



uhm what i ment was lure sasuke away with clones.. and the idee of the clones is sasuke can't tell which are the real ones and which aren't.. he will have to shoot htem all. then think of the clones doing some annyoing tactics (which oro is great at and sasuke is very very weak against) he will be wasting all his chakra on some clones... i don't see why the sannins can't do this with ease... 
we know sasuke can't tell which are the real clones.. and sasuke is extremly prone to go into bloodrage. 

also bunta takes one hop and he will be out of the range of susanoo.... the thing is susanoo require massive chakra/lifeforce to sustain  and can therefore only be used fro a short while.. while it is veyr dangerous. bunta can just hop a mile or two away and when susanoo comes close hop another mile away. and keep doing that will itachi dies.. ofcourse Itachi will see through this tactic but what can he do about it. if he cancels susanoo to stop the drain a simple waterball from bunta will require him to put it up again.. and well bunta's attack have massively more range then anything itachi has shown.. 

Everyone here knows that itachi is realy realy powerful with susanoo. and in a close range battle or a mid range battle it is very likely he can take on or maybe even fodderize all the sannin(during the duration of susanoo).. but the sannins have option to get out of range of itachi's susanoo(summon rashomon simple large mudwall whateve). and they have the jutsu's and summons to take make it a long range fight. and then even itachi's susanoo won't last.  ofcourse if you sasuke susanoo long range fight will not be advisable, altough given proper space i guess manda should be abel to dogde susanoo's arrow. but thats why you separate sasuke and use clones to tire him out.. 

also if yata's mirror returned fire as someone seems to claim it should sasuke should be fried chickenwings. i think it only stops attacks.


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## justarandomguy (May 29, 2010)

Stermor said:


> uhm what i ment was lure sasuke away with clones.. and the idee of the clones is sasuke can't tell which are the real ones and which aren't.. he will have to shoot htem all. then think of the clones doing some annyoing tactics (which oro is great at and sasuke is very very weak against) he will be wasting all his chakra on some clones... i don't see why the sannins can't do this with ease...
> we know sasuke can't tell which are the real clones.. and sasuke is extremly prone to go into bloodrage.
> 
> also bunta takes one hop and he will be out of the range of susanoo.... the thing is susanoo require massive chakra/lifeforce to sustain  and can therefore only be used fro a short while.. while it is veyr dangerous. bunta can just hop a mile or two away and when susanoo comes close hop another mile away. and keep doing that will itachi dies.. ofcourse Itachi will see through this tactic but what can he do about it. if he cancels susanoo to stop the drain a simple waterball from bunta will require him to put it up again.. and well bunta's attack have massively more range then anything itachi has shown..
> ...



i dobut that an adept tactican like sasuke would be lured away. bunta takes one hop, and he goes a mile!!? the susano arrows are very fast :
sasuke has been worked into a bloodlust against danzo, itachi, and kakashi. he had good reasons to be mad at them. he has no grudges against any of the sannin. sasuke has EMS, and susano arrows will kill sannin with ease even with rashomon gates.


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## Jinnobi (May 29, 2010)

Susano'o is vastly underrated on these forums. It's very, very fast.


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## Lightysnake (May 29, 2010)

Not so fast it's impossible to react to for everyone.


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## Jinnobi (May 29, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Not so fast it's impossible to react to for everyone.



But fast enough to quite impossible to dodge for a prolonged period of time - especially in conjunction with genjutsu/Amaretsu/clones/shuriken spam/ninjutsu/teammates.


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## Sanbi (May 29, 2010)

justarandomguy said:


> i bunta takes one hop, and he goes a mile!!?


Considering he jumped waayy over a mountain, it shouldn't be that unbelievable. 



> the susano arrows are very fast :


Rashoumon Gates can block that, they can dodge it from afar, two of them can tank it, their summons and KBs help can confusion to avoid it, or tank it for them, if they target one Sannin or their KB ,the other KB's, summons, and Sannin attack Sasuke's vulnerable form.



> sasuke has EMS, and susano arrows will kill sannin with ease even with rashomon gates.


We have no idea of what EMS does for Sasuke, and currently he hasn't even adjusted to them. Susano Arrow does not have more power then a KN4 Chakra Cannon.


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## Lightysnake (May 29, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> But fast enough to quite impossible to dodge for a prolonged period of time - especially in conjunction with genjutsu/Amaretsu/clones/shuriken spam/ninjutsu/teammates.



Itachi's Susanoo can't be proven either way and this team has things that can deal with it. Sasuke's too. Against Tsunade and Orochimaru, Sasuke's Susanoo isn't that effectual


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## Stermor (May 29, 2010)

justarandomguy said:


> i dobut that an adept tactican like sasuke would be lured away. bunta takes one hop, and he goes a mile!!? the susano arrows are very fast :
> sasuke has been worked into a bloodlust against danzo, itachi, and kakashi. he had good reasons to be mad at them. he has no grudges against any of the sannin. sasuke has EMS, and susano arrows will kill sannin with ease even with rashomon gates.



if you read the post you should know i was talking about itachi's susanoo. sasuke arrows are very good in long range combat.. that why you separate sasuke with clones and summons... considering clones won't be abel to dogde/tank arrows for long anyway. it is more usefull to go mid range against sasuke. 

Uhm Sasuke has had a short fuse since for ever... just say uchiha's suck and wanna bet sasuke will get enraged.. he is likely the easiest character in the known naruto world to enrage. 

also sasuke an adept tactician?? he hasn't shown any higher brain function since deidara.......


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## justarandomguy (May 30, 2010)

Stermor said:


> if you read the post you should know i was talking about itachi's susanoo. sasuke arrows are very good in long range combat.. that why you separate sasuke with clones and summons... considering clones won't be abel to dogde/tank arrows for long anyway. it is more usefull to go mid range against sasuke.
> 
> Uhm Sasuke has had a short fuse since for ever... just say uchiha's suck and wanna bet sasuke will get enraged.. he is likely the easiest character in the known naruto world to enrage.
> 
> also sasuke an adept tactician?? he hasn't shown any higher brain function since deidara.......



summons are useless against TB and susano arrows (execpt for katsuyu, although it hasn't shown to be an impressive fighter) to me it seems like evryone who has argued for the sannin has said something to the tone of "the sannin will counter the susano by running away". if they are close enough to talk to sasuke, team sharingan will open up a rape storm. sasuke shows he has not lost his tactical skills here: 
here:
despite clear bloodlust in both battles, he was still able to fight with inteligence. sasuke is not stupid enough (and neither are kakashi and itachi for that matter) to get seperated from his teamates.


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## Stermor (May 31, 2010)

justarandomguy said:


> summons are useless against TB and susano arrows (execpt for katsuyu, although it hasn't shown to be an impressive fighter) to me it seems like evryone who has argued for the sannin has said something to the tone of "the sannin will counter the susano by running away". if they are close enough to talk to sasuke, team sharingan will open up a rape storm. sasuke shows he has not lost his tactical skills here:
> here:
> despite clear bloodlust in both battles, he was still able to fight with inteligence. sasuke is not stupid enough (and neither are kakashi and itachi for that matter) to get seperated from his teamates.



summons are not useless.. small katsuya's can tank susanoo arrows easily (they have some serious tanking feats) they can spit acid and i believe you use that long enough susanoo will melt(like mizukage showed) plus add a few oro and jiraiys clones to annoy the shit out of him.. it rather easy to do and sasuke can't do anything against it since shutting off susanoo will mean he gets a kusanagi or rasengan to the back... 

uhm also you know why people counter susanoo with range. cause if your not madara/ zetsu or raikage you will not live if you stay close to itachi..... ? doubt itachi can use totsuka sword faster then oro can use rashomon(if susanoo isn't present already)... therefor i say sannins can get away from it. 

also while i agree itachi and kakashi are extremly intelligent fighters. sasuke is not. i stand corrected that he hasn't shown any higher brain function.. but it is still very very limited.


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## supersaiyan146 (Jun 4, 2010)

Hmm....this would be a very close one.....
I believe Kakashi can be pretty easily taken out by either Oro or J man.....
But if Sauske starts Susanoo spamming then it would be very difficult for the Sannin team....
Ha I would go with Team Uchiha.....


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## justarandomguy (Jun 4, 2010)

Stermor said:


> summons are not useless.. small katsuya's can tank susanoo arrows easily (they have some serious tanking feats) they can spit acid and i believe you use that long enough susanoo will melt(like mizukage showed) plus add a few oro and jiraiys clones to annoy the shit out of him.. it rather easy to do and sasuke can't do anything against it since shutting off susanoo will mean he gets a kusanagi or rasengan to the back...
> 
> uhm also you know why people counter susanoo with range. cause if your not madara/ zetsu or raikage you will not live if you stay close to itachi..... ? doubt itachi can use totsuka sword faster then oro can use rashomon(if susanoo isn't present already)... therefor i say sannins can get away from it.
> 
> also while i agree itachi and kakashi are extremly intelligent fighters. sasuke is not. i stand corrected that he hasn't shown any higher brain function.. but it is still very very limited.



katsuyu is frikin indestrucutable i agree, but when its small what can it do? mizukage corroded susano ribcage, not complete form. if sasuke gets susano out, he will rip the sannin to pieces. if sannin decide to fight long range, then sasuke's susano arrows will kill them.  sasuke hasn't faced an adept tactican since deidara (execpt itachi, and he wasn't trying) so he hasn't needed much brain function.


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## Stermor (Jun 5, 2010)

justarandomguy said:


> katsuyu is frikin indestrucutable i agree, but when its small what can it do? mizukage corroded susano ribcage, not complete form. if sasuke gets susano out, he will rip the sannin to pieces. if sannin decide to fight long range, then sasuke's susano arrows will kill them.  sasuke hasn't faced an adept tactican since deidara (execpt itachi, and he wasn't trying) so he hasn't needed much brain function.



the thing is acid primary function wouldn't be to dismantel susaanoo the summons wouldn't have enough acid/power to do that fast enough. but more to make sure sasuke doesn't get out of susanoo and keep draining his chakra at a substancial rate. 

if you have sasuke and itachi susanoo next to eachother you have a pretty good weapon in long and hsort range. you would try to prevent that if your smart. i think it is likely that the sannins would be able to separate sasuke. i explained before why they should be able to do that.

the sannins have the skills and power deal with sharingan team. will not be easy and itachi's gonne be a bitch but they should win.


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## justarandomguy (Jun 5, 2010)

Stermor said:


> the thing is acid primary function wouldn't be to dismantel susaanoo the summons wouldn't have enough acid/power to do that fast enough. but more to make sure sasuke doesn't get out of susanoo and keep draining his chakra at a substancial rate.
> 
> if you have sasuke and itachi susanoo next to eachother you have a pretty good weapon in long and hsort range. you would try to prevent that if your smart. i think it is likely that the sannins would be able to separate sasuke. i explained before why they should be able to do that.
> 
> the sannins have the skills and power deal with sharingan team. will not be easy and itachi's gonne be a bitch but they should win.



itachi and kakashi would follow sasuke if the sannin did seperate him. please give more reasoning on why the sannin win.


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## Stermor (Jun 8, 2010)

justarandomguy said:


> itachi and kakashi would follow sasuke if the sannin did seperate him. please give more reasoning on why the sannin win.



read my previous posts. i explained it in detail a few times. and you think itachi and kakashi can follow after sasuke if the sannin run interference?? just swamp of the underworld and you can actualy close most escape routes off.


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## justarandomguy (Jun 9, 2010)

Can someone with half an ounce of sense please argue for the sannin?


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## Jinnobi (Jun 9, 2010)

justarandomguy said:


> Can someone with half an ounce of sense please argue for the sannin?



No - because if you have an ounce of sense you'll realize that Sannin lose.


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## Aoshi (Jun 9, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> No - because if you have an ounce of sense you'll realize that Sannin lose.



_Please explain how the Sannin lose._


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## Lightysnake (Jun 9, 2010)

Why on earth are you asking Jinnobi for an unbiased statement?


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## Makabi (Jun 9, 2010)

KnownTitanKid said:


> Jiraiya, Orochimaru & Tsunade vs Itachi, Sasuke & Kakashi.
> 
> *Location:* Sannin Battlefield
> *Distance:* 25 meters
> ...



Itachi's Susanoo, Takes out Eight Branches if it's used as well as being able to hit Jiriyia if he needs to stop. Sasuke can control one summon with Sharingan.

So basically 

Sasuke> Oro
Kakashi> Tsunade.
Itachi>Jiriyia

Itachi traps Jiriyia and the Hermits in Tsukyomi if he can't trap the hermits he uses Ammy and burns them alive canceling their focus. Also Sasuke does the same thing to Oro burning him alive or using Susanoo Arrows to kill him.
Kakashi simply blitz and lightning blades Tsunade's face, then goes to do the same to HM Jiriyia if need be.


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## Aoshi (Jun 9, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Why on earth are you asking Jinnobi for an unbiased statement?



_I just love destroying his baseless arguments._


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## L. Messi [✔] (Jun 9, 2010)

Excuse me sir but does Sasuke have Susano'o, Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi as well?

If so, double mangekyou hax techs... I can't believe people says Sannin could win this, seriously, HAHAHA!

Tsunade is basically fodder and shit, Sasuke or Kakashi is more than enough for her. Orochimaru got one-paneled twice by Itachi, once when he was a kid and the other time when he was like what.... 90% dead & blind? 

Itachi > Jiraiya. Itachi and Sasuke (together with their ms jutsus) >>> jiraiya and his mother.

Sharingan takes this with ease, really.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 9, 2010)

Anyone who thinks Tsunade means nothing ina  fight really doesn't deserve to be listened to.


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## Smiley (Jun 9, 2010)

ItachiTheGreat said:


> Excuse me sir but does Sasuke have Susano'o, Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi as well?
> 
> If so, double mangekyou hax techs... I can't believe people says Sannin could win this, seriously, HAHAHA!
> 
> ...



The reason why your neg is rep, please take a break and get of that Uchiha cock ffs.


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## L. Messi [✔] (Jun 9, 2010)

Shut the f up.

You are seriously an idiot, now I couldn't care less if I get banned for a week or not. How the hell can you say Sannin wins when three geniuses faces 1 genius (Orochimaru is the only genius in Sannin, and even him got one-paneled twice by Itachi.)

Stop being a retard and start accepting thing. I can't believe you're the one who's saying I should get off someones cock, when you're the one who should.

Team Sharingan would win because of:

- Kakashi alone is smarter than Jiraiya and Tsunade.
- Sasuke as well.
- Itachi alone is smarter than all of them -> basically Team Sharingan is by far smarter, thus, they could create fucked up combos.
- The three of them have doujutsus; a huge disadvantage for Team Sannin.
- Don't make me mention their jutsus, I mean, double susano'o, amaterasu and Tsukuyomi... get a fucking grip, i'm out rofl


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## Makabi (Jun 9, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Anyone who thinks Tsunade means nothing ina  fight really doesn't deserve to be listened to.


She isn't in this fight since we are dealing with top tier speedsters. Kakashi easily takes her out without any hassel


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## Lightysnake (Jun 9, 2010)

Yeah, because we know 3.5 is such a bad speed stat, we know Tsunade has no attack prediction, and we know she's not a top tier Taijutsu fighter who needs one hit to kill


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## Butt Hole lol (Jun 9, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Yeah, because we know 3.5 is such a bad speed stat,


3.5 speed isnt bad but campared to Sasuke and Kakashi 4.5 and Itachi's 5 its not great, she isnt going to be hitting them. Add to the fact they have sharingan they are almost untouchable to a person with only 3.5 speed.
It should also be noted that these three sharingan users are extremly fast and are almost always commented on their speed.



> we know Tsunade has no attack prediction,


No shit she aint got no sharingan 



> and we know she's not a top tier Taijutsu fighter who needs one hit to kill


I dont see her landing any punches on anyone, team sharingan is just too fast. The only people that are real threats to them is Orochimaru and Jiraiya.


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## justarandomguy (Jun 10, 2010)

tsunade is fodderized quickly. her fighting style at close range justs begs for kakashi or itachi to kill her. souzou saizen makes her able to tank everything but amaterasu and susano arrows for a couple minutes, but she quickly becomes a useless old bag if she does. katsuyu may be useful in countering genjustu, but if it makes clones it is useless in combat. tsunade is a total non factor in this battle.


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## Makabi (Jun 10, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Yeah, because we know 3.5 is such a bad speed stat, we know Tsunade has no attack prediction, and we know she's not a top tier Taijutsu fighter who needs one hit to kill


DBs suck shit. Kakashi has sharingan and kept up with Asura and such Tsunade ain't got crap on him.


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## Pink Matter (Jun 10, 2010)

I'm not an Itachi fan but him alone can probably hold out against the entire Team sannin if he was healthy and not blind. His susanoo defense (yata's mirror) is impenetrable and he has amaterasu, the most powerful ninjutsu in existence. sasuke can just help out with his susanoo while kakashi can blast some kamui at the opposing team. Tsunade's probably the first one out since her techs wont do much in this battle. Jiraiya might be the last man standing cuz hes more of a defensive long-range person. Oro will get owned cuz he goes for rushes since hes immortal but will quickly be wiped out by Itachi's Totsuka sword or Kakashi's kamui. Team sharingan wins with moderate difficulty.


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## Pink Matter (Jun 10, 2010)

Sorry forgot that Kakashi couldn't use kamui. But since Oro can't use Edo Tensei, then its the same result: Team Sharingan wins with little-moderate diff.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 10, 2010)

KnownTitanKid said:


> _I just love destroying his baseless arguments._



Except my arguments are rarely wrong and never respected - oh, and you didn't come close to "destroying" one... ever.


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## Aoshi (Jun 10, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Except my arguments are rarely wrong and never respected - oh, and you didn't come close to "destroying" one... ever.



_If your posts are never respected, why would I even bother reading them..._


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## Jinnobi (Jun 10, 2010)

KnownTitanKid said:


> _If your posts are never respected, why would I even bother reading them..._



Yet you do - or else you wouldn't be "destroying" them. 

I don't expect my arguments to be respected -- I expect them to make sense and correspond accurately with basic reason, the "narutoverse" and the spirit of the manga. I'm sorry if your fandom causes you to call me a fanboy or to hate on me and my opinion.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 10, 2010)

You know, something? Get off your high horse. It's ridiculous how you caper around like some anti-fanboy crusader when the vast majority of your posts are Uchiha praise and insulting those who don't agree.


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## Turrin (Jun 10, 2010)

Idk if i posted here before, but i think the Sannin Take This. Orochimaru with Full Knowledge is more then Capable of taking out Sasuke; As Sasuke really has no way to kill Oro and Oro will out last him and eventually get a chance to stab the Ksunagi sword into him. Kakashi i think can take Tsunade with Full Knowledge, but it would be very close.

Jiraiya vs Itachi would end in a draw. If they go off into match ups like that then i just see Orochimaru killing tired out Kakashi 

And if they don't i see the Sannin's Superior Team Work Giving them the win.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 10, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> You know, something? Get off your high horse. It's ridiculous how you caper around like some anti-fanboy crusader when the vast majority of your posts are Uchiha praise and insulting those who don't agree.



"Uchiha" praise? You're the one who's taking this way too seriously - you're starting to negatively label _fictitious_ groups of people. We generally call that racism or stereotyping in real life. 

That said, I believe Itachi is overpowered because that's the way the manga, in my opinion, portrays him. I read the manga and make an assessment: I do not make an assessment and then read the manga. His character is shown to be supremely skilled while sick, with suggestions galore that if he were healthy he would be significantly MORE powerful. He also has MS powers, the most broken 1v1 power feat-wise to date.

I never insult people who intelligently disagree with me. The problem is, I find plenty of people who disagree with me, but none of their arguments are intelligent. You want to debate with me? Create a good argument. I've countered every one of your points in past debates, and you ultimately resort to absurd (1) faith statements or (2) repeating disproven or unlikely premises. 

I'm sorry you're angry and indignant because you don't like what I have to say. But please, don't call me a "Uchiha" fanboy. I've make pretty damn sure I do my best to accurately read the manga. Am I biased? To a degree, yes. Are you? To a degree, yes. Everyone is. But I try to keep that bias to a minimum - something that I see very much ignored by my fellow forum posters.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 10, 2010)

You never insult people who disagree with you? That is a lie. You barely entertain anything they have to say, treat them with barely disguised condescension and dismiss arguments with one word like 'fanfic' as opposed to so much as providing how it wouldn't work.

You believe Itachi and the other Uchiha are on their own tier because you like them more, plain and simple. When you are blatantly wrong, you've even used appeals to popularity as an argument.

There's no point in creating an argument against you as you won't even give it the time of day.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 10, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> You never insult people who disagree with you? That is a lie. You barely entertain anything they have to say, treat them with barely disguised condescension and dismiss arguments with one word like 'fanfic' as opposed to so much as providing how it wouldn't work.



Rest assured, I have met and debated with people who have disagreements with me - the difference is that they actually have intelligent opinions that they can support. When you're hearing the same things stubbornly repeated over and over _even though they've been debated and disproven_, it's very frustrating. 



> You believe Itachi and the other Uchiha are on their own tier because you like them more, plain and simple. When you are blatantly wrong, you've even used appeals to popularity as an argument.



I believe Itachi is on an elite level. The Uchiha clan is strong but not unrivaled. Believe it or not, I think Itachi is powerful because that's the way he's portrayed, not because I like him. I like Shino a lot too. Do I think that Shino is beating Jiraiya? No.





> There's no point in creating an argument against you as you won't even give it the time of day.



Make a good one and I will.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 10, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Rest assured, I have met and debated with people who have disagreements with me - the difference is that they actually have intelligent opinions that they can support. When you're hearing the same things stubbornly repeated over and over _even though they've been debated and disproven_, it's very frustrating.


To your fury, I'm sure, most things aren't strictly proven via general consent. 
And I'm calling you out on making this up. I've seen you here and at the Library plenty. Are you ever civil or courteous to those who disagree with you as opposed to treating them with condescending smugness?
Very, very rarely




> I believe Itachi is on an elite level. The Uchiha clan is strong but not unrivaled. Believe it or not, I think Itachi is powerful because that's the way he's portrayed, not because I like him. I like Shino a lot too. Do I think that Shino is beating Jiraiya? No.


And Jiraiya is portrayed on an elite level, Pain too.
But Itachi's above them why? You like him more.






> Make a good one and I will.



Plenty have been made. You've used "Use this is a popular translation" as a counter.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 10, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> To your fury, I'm sure, most things aren't strictly proven via general consent.



I'm thankful every day they're not. See: Jiraiya's popularity poll.




> And I'm calling you out on making this up. I've seen you here and at the Library plenty. Are you ever civil or courteous to those who disagree with you as opposed to treating them with condescending smugness?
> Very, very rarely



It's a symptom.






> And Jiraiya is portrayed on an elite level, Pain too.
> But Itachi's above them why? You like him more.



No - because I think (1) his abilities are more potent, (2) he's more intelligent, and (3) he's more skilled. Of course I think he's going to win.






> Plenty have been made. You've used "Use this is a popular translation" as a counter.



You've used, "this is the RIGHT translation because I said so" as an argument.


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## IzanagiRikudo (Jun 10, 2010)

This fight would most likely become Itachi vs. Oro, Jiraiya vs. Sasuke, and Kakashi vs. Tsunade, in which Team Sharingan wins. Itachi beats Oro the same way as he did before, and probably seals him with Susano'o. Jiraiya vs. Sasuke would be pretty close, but I see Jiraiya almost winning, but then having Itachi tag team him with Sasuke. Kakashi takes Tsunade out with a double Raikiri while stunning her with Raikage Bunshin. If Frog Song is used, I don't see why Itachi or Sasuke would hesitate to use Amaterasu on Jiraiya. It's also IC for Sasuke to use MS off the bat now, so the Sannin have a major problem to deal with from the start.


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## justarandomguy (Jun 11, 2010)

why are we arguing over each others merits? is this really the place?


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## Abinash Uzumaki (Jun 12, 2010)

frog song n done

jiraiya is a specialist in overcoming genjutsu

team saringan burns in boiling oil if they prefer it better

jiraiya can seal amaterasu , oro can puke a new one (i hate it) n tsunade will break each last of the bones in their body if she survives

hey sannins are seriously being underestimated


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## justarandomguy (Jun 17, 2010)

Abinash Uzumaki said:


> frog song n done
> 
> jiraiya is a specialist in overcoming genjutsu
> 
> ...



tsunade dies quickly, oral rebirth is useless against TB, how does jiraya seal amaerasu?


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## justarandomguy (Jun 18, 2010)

this thread is dead.


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## daschysta (Jun 18, 2010)

Abinash Uzumaki said:


> frog song n done
> 
> jiraiya is a specialist in overcoming genjutsu
> 
> ...



Whereis in the world was jiraiya ever portrayed as a specialist in overcoming genjutsu? He is self admittedly bad with it..


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## Lightysnake (Jun 18, 2010)

He's not 'bad' with it. He says he doesn't use it because it isn't his forte, there's a difference. He did take pains to stress that even with this, one must know how to overcome it as they'll fight Genjutsu users.

Kabuto is a genjutsu specialist and Sakura, Shikamaru and Gai broke his.


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## daschysta (Jun 18, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> He's not 'bad' with it. He says he doesn't use it because it isn't his forte, there's a difference. He did take pains to stress that even with this, one must know how to overcome it as they'll fight Genjutsu users.
> 
> Kabuto is a genjutsu specialist and Sakura, Shikamaru and Gai broke his.



True, he certainly is not an expert at braking it though. And kabuto is not neccesarily a genjutsu specialist and his gen was an aoe one, meant to put to sleep a mass amount of people. It wasn't focused.


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## Archlord Falcon (Jun 18, 2010)

How does Jman seal Amaretsu?

With full knowledge i am not sure Team Sannin will win so easily though, they will win.

Kakashi can't Kamui, MS is good but none of the Sannin will be caught in genjutsu. Jman has Ma and Pa, the other two can use Katsyu.

Really 25ms with Jiraiya and Oro, a couple of Sharingans can auto die. Susano can tank but how long will it take for the Uchihas to prep a defensive jutsu versus extended kusanagi and Pa's  tongue.

Genjutsu won't factor in since its full knowledge, maybe some1 will be caught off guard but i doubt it since these are 6  geniuses. Sannin take it, more variety. Greater numbers with boss summons.

More likely to perform a better blitz, the Sharingan has speed demons yes but Jman and Oro should provide quicker jutsus for the 25m starting distance.


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## xTheTrueUchihax (Jun 19, 2010)

amateratsu ! poor sannins


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## Lightysnake (Jun 19, 2010)

daschysta said:


> True, he certainly is not an expert at braking it though. And kabuto is not neccesarily a genjutsu specialist and his gen was an aoe one, meant to put to sleep a mass amount of people. It wasn't focused.



Kabuto has a 4.5 in genjutsu. That is near top of the line.

Jiraiya is certainly an expert in breaking Genjutsu. He has to be. You don't survive 1800 missions without knowing how to deal very well with one of the three top forms of combat. His whole thing was "No, we're not genjutsu types, but we need to know how to fight Genjutsu.


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## motilal (Jun 19, 2010)

LOL OP is so pro sharingan that he cant see/think clearly........

Sannin rapes sharingan kids.......for ppl who always say that itachi left cause he was exausted, thats total BS.....look at sauce vs itachi's fight and u can see he used tsukiyomi, ameratsu and susano, couple of times........and beside jiraya was drunk too.....so tey both werent at full potential......and itachi himself stated that he and kisame both will die if tey fought drunk jiraya.....

for ppl who say that how do i know if jiraya was drunk, then tell me how to do u know itachi was exausted......it was never stated that he was exausted.....


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