# Tobirama VS 7 Swordsmen of the Mist



## NightingaleOfShadows (Feb 10, 2017)

Tobirama VS 7 Swordsmen: members- Kisame, Zabuza, Chojuro(War Ark), Ameyuri, Kushimaru, Mangetsu, Fubuki

*Location:* Forest of Death
*Start distance:* 50 meters
*Knowledge:* Manga
*Restrictions:* none
*Prep: *none


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 10, 2017)

Even Zabuza could solo.

Restrict Kirigakure no jutsu, it's too much.

Reactions: Disagree 4 | Dislike 1


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 10, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Even Zabuza could solo.
> 
> Restrict Kirigakure no jutsu, it's too much.



Tobirama's an elite sensor, he is not being solo'd by Zabuza. We witnessed how more inept sensors could perceive his location within the mist, so Tobirama certainly isn't going to fall victim to Zabuza's Hidden Mist, esp. considering Tobirama's reaction speed.

As for the topic, Tobirama likely solos. His Hiraishin isn't as refined as Minato's which is tailored for dispatching weaker ninja in a blink of an eye, but I believe clones and his reaction speed can compensate for that. None of them can defend against speeds that tagged Juubito multiple times in rapid succession before being bisected and that same individual eluded both KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke. Tobirama is also profound in kenjutsu, so he'll likely be cognizant of all of their various different battle styles even employed which makes the task significantly easier for Tobirama.

Tobirama would presumably slaughter them all in a blink of an eye, even Kisame.

Any objections @Troyse22 ?


----------



## NightingaleOfShadows (Feb 11, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Even Zabuza could solo.
> 
> Restrict Kirigakure no jutsu, it's too much.



If you actually think Zabuza a high jonin can solo Tobirama a high kage with a little mist your funny....just think about that for a second....


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 11, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Tobirama's an elite sensor, he is not being solo'd by Zabuza. We witnessed how more inept sensors could perceive his location within the mist, so Tobirama certainly isn't going to fall victim to Zabuza's Hidden Mist, esp. considering Tobirama's reaction speed.
> 
> As for the topic, Tobirama likely solos. His Hiraishin isn't as refined as Minato's which is tailored for dispatching weaker ninja in a blink of an eye, but I believe clones and his reaction speed can compensate for that. None of them can defend against speeds that tagged Juubito multiple times in rapid succession before being bisected and that same individual eluded both KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke. Tobirama is also profound in kenjutsu, so he'll likely be cognizant of all of their various different battle styles even employed which makes the task significantly easier for Tobirama.
> 
> ...



About Zabuza soloing? Nah I admit that's a little crazy.

As for Tobirama winning 


OT: The 7SOTM's take this with neg-low diff. Mangetsu can wield all 7 SOTM blades, with Samehada being the only blade he didn't "master" (because he died too soon, had he been alive, he would have mastered it most likely) He was the last one standing vs an entire division of Shinobi. Based on his hype, he can more than likely hang with the big players of this battle (Kisame, Tobirama, Chojuro) the rest honestly die in the crossfire.

Kisame could solo Tobirama honestly. Hiraishin seals get absorbed, Kisame's Suitons are unrivaled in the Narutoverse, Tobirama cannot match him, and Kisame is his superior in CQC. The only thing that puts Kisame in danger is infinite explosive tags, and Kisame can likely escape the blast radius before it kills him.

Explosive tags are still just explosive tags, no matter how many there are. 

Throw in Zabuza with his mist, Chojuro with Hirameikarei and Mangetsu with whatever the fuck he decides to wield and you have a team that Tobirama cannot even dream of opposing. It took Might Gai's father going into the 8th Gate in order just to HOLD BACK the 7SOTMs.

All of them can fight in mist, as when the 7SOTM's got reincarnated, they were all able to navigate the mist and kill very efficiently. Chojuro might be an exception, because he's young in age, and he hasn't fought besides the other SOTM's. I doubt it, but it's possible. Kisame can undoubtedly fight in the mist, he was the strongest amongst all generations of the SOTM's, to assume that he's an exception is absurd.

All of these SOTM's all coming at Tobirama in the mist, with Suiton's, silent killing and numbers will without question decisively slaughter Tobirama. Waterdome isn't needed, Daikodan isn't needed, Water Prison isn't needed.

Tobirama alone is not above arguably the strongest of the 7SOTM's as a unit, give me a fucking break

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## hbcaptain (Feb 11, 2017)

If you replace Kisame with his master then Tobirama wins, wihtout it the swordmen win high/extreme diff.

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## The_Conqueror (Feb 11, 2017)

Kisame should win low difficulty. Kisame has already reacted to clocked bee>base young bee that  reacted to minatos hiraishin whose hiraishin use>tobiramas use. So kisame can easily react to tobirama. Nothing suggests otherwise
Daikodon and water dome takes out tobirama while tobirama can't match kisames bijju level strength in CQC.

Reactions: Funny 4


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 11, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Kisame should win low difficulty. Kisame has already reacted to clocked bee>base young bee that  reacted to minatos hiraishin whose hiraishin use>tobiramas use. So kisame can easily react to tobirama. Nothing suggests otherwise
> Daikodon and water dome takes out tobirama while tobirama can't match kisames bijju level strength in CQC.



 Oh shit, you're right.

 Didn't Kisame demonstrate reactions and speed far greater than JJ Madara? Of course he shit-stomps Tobirama. Actually, Samehada probably soloes Tobirama because he reacted to V2 Bee.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 11, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Oh shit, you're right.
> 
> Didn't Kisame demonstrate reactions and speed far greater than JJ Madara? Of course he shit-stomps Tobirama. Actually, Samehada probably soloes Tobirama because he reacted to V2 Bee.



Sarcasm to cover up the fact that you have absolutely no counter argument.

You and @professor83 seem to think you're clever and/or witty, but you're really not. Provide a counter argument to mine in your next post here or I will take your lack of response, or more sarcasm as your formal concession.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


----------



## The_Conqueror (Feb 11, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Hiraishin seals get absorbed,


Based on?


Troyse22 said:


> Tobirama cannot match him, and Kisame is his superior in CQC.


Based on?
Kisame cannot land hits on tobirama
One Kunai goes behind kisame next thing kisame dies


Troyse22 said:


> The only thing that puts Kisame in danger is infinite explosive tags, and Kisame can likely escape the blast radius before it kills him.
> 
> Explosive tags are still just explosive tags, no matter how many there are.


How does he escape the blast radius?


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 11, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Based on?





professor83 said:


> Based on?
> Kisame cannot land hits on tobirama
> One Kunai goes behind kisame next thing kisame dies




Why can't Kisame land hits on Tobi? 

Really, Tobiramas CQC skill cannot rival a SOTM.



professor83 said:


> How does he escape the blast radius?




Runs out and blocks with Samehada.


----------



## hbcaptain (Feb 11, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Samehada probably soloes Tobirama because *he *reacted to V2 Bee.


Nah Samehada is a girl.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## The_Conqueror (Feb 11, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


>


Great reply I concede



Troyse22 said:


> Why can't Kisame land hits on Tobi?
> 
> Really, Tobiramas CQC skill cannot rival a SOTM.


The SOTM has feats such as....... To suggest that they could strike or react to someone who was tagging and reacting to jubbi jin 


Troyse22 said:


> Runs out and blocks with Samehada.


Kisame dies in the blast radius. Samehada is not absorbing all the explosions. In fact it has nothing to suggest it absorbs explosions


hbcaptain said:


> Nah Samehada is a *girl*


How ?


----------



## Anbu Knights (Feb 11, 2017)

Not a single swordsman on the opposing team have any feats to suggest they can stop Tobirama from going on a hiraishin-kenjutsu murdering spree. Kisame is the only plausible survivor of the initial blood bath.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Trojan (Feb 11, 2017)

Tobirama gets fodderstompped. 

First of all, we know for a fact that the "original" swordsmen took on an 8 gates user and at least 3-4 survived. Tobirama is not going to be a tougher opponent than 8th Gates user, most likely. 

Second, the ones that were shown during the war were also able to do great damage to an entire division. One that included Kakashi, Gai, and other Jonin/Chunin. Each division contains 16000 people. Yet, they took a lot of time and effort to defeat them (although they were ET so that's helped the swordsmen as well).

Tobirama's hype is not the greatest really, seeing how he and 6 of his students were weaker than the Kinkaku unit which contains only 20 people. 2 mains one, and 18 fodders. I see no reason to why we should assume that he can take any group of the 7 swordsmen, let alone one with, apparently, the best ones from each group. 

And frankly, Mangetsu might be a nightmare for Tobirama. Like, what is Tobirama supposed to do against his water-body? 

Stabs and Water-style moves are not going to have any effect on him, so how is he going to take him down?

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 2


----------



## Ishmael (Feb 11, 2017)

As seen in the manga tobirama is a great sensor so no the hidden mist being used by the swordsman would work imo.

No swordsman has the speed to keep up with tobirama and clone feints and clones in general would aid him in this fight.

Not one of them can stop him from using the flying thunder God technique and tagging each member continuously. Tobirama low diffs imo I see no reason to why he wouldn't be able to.

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## Serene Grace (Feb 11, 2017)

Lmao at the tobirama downplay, and  @ Zabuza even giving 40% of Tobirama a hard time. He clearly tags all of them with hirashin marks, as he is faster than all of them by a pretty far margin, then he proceeds to eliminate them one by one, they aren't reacting to it until they get the jist that they have to move their swords prior to him teleporting behind them. Though I doubt they would be able to react anyways, and if they did at least 90% of their members would be dead already, leaving tobirama to fight 1 v 1, or 1 v 2 where he proceeds to utterly rape them,ck come at me haters. Tobirama stomps..oh wait Kisame has instantaneous reflexes so I doubt Tobirama would be able to blitz him

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Trojan (Feb 11, 2017)

This "He is faster than them" is pretty dumb tbh. He is far faster than Kin/Gin too (With FTG), did not stop them from wiping the floor with him. 

8th Gates Dai is also far faster than them, yet he was the one who died.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Disagree 2


----------



## Ishmael (Feb 11, 2017)

Hussain said:


> This "He is faster than them" is pretty dumb tbh. He is far faster than Kin/Gin too (With FTG), did not stop them from wiping the floor with him.
> 
> 8th Gates Dai is also far faster than them, yet he was the one who died.




Those were shinobi with tailed beast chakra and sage of the six paths weapons. Also it was stated that he died not that he was brutally beaten or anything.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 11, 2017)

LAZLOLAZZING said:


> Those were shinobi with tailed beast chakra and sage of the six paths weapons. Also it was stated that he died not that he was brutally beaten or anything.



1- They did not use Kurama's chakra. Kakuzu stated that Kin use that when Ginkaku is beaten, which was not the case.
2- It was stated that they wiped the floor with him

Gin Kaku: t's a damn shame... that we are under the jutsu of the second hokage we fucking wiped the floor with...innit, kinkaku?





No rubbish about how "he tagged JJ Obito oh my god" or "he is going to tag every last one of them and blitz them blah blah blah"

The only thing that statement imply is Tobirama did not even put up a fight despite being "oh my god he is so much faster than they are"

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Anbu Knights (Feb 11, 2017)

Hussain said:


> This "He is faster than them" is pretty dumb tbh. He is far faster than Kin/Gin too (With FTG), did not stop them from wiping the floor with him.
> 
> 8th Gates Dai is also far faster than them, yet he was the one who died.



You can bring up as many irrelevant, past off panel events as you want... Anything could have happened, we will never know. 

Feat-to-feat they can't react to Flying Thunder God or stop from being ran through like butter by Hiraishingiri. If they could stop it you would have provided actual feats.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Trojan (Feb 11, 2017)

Anbu Knights said:


> You can bring up as many irrelevant, past off panel events as you want... Anything could have happened, we will never know.
> 
> Feat-to-feat they can't react to Flying Thunder God or stop from being ran through like butter by Hiraishingiri. If they could stop it you would have provided actual feats.



let's go with this dumb logic of yours, for the sake of the argument, then. 


How is FTG-Giri going to affect Mangetsu? Please enlighten us.


----------



## Anbu Knights (Feb 11, 2017)

Hussain said:


> let's go with this dumb logic of yours, for the sake of the argument, then.
> 
> 
> How is FTG-Giri going to affect Mangetsu? Please enlighten us.



Ignoring the other swordsman and clinging to hydro-mode since you're outta ammo? This just gets better and better.

FTG-Giri obviously won't work, but Kibaku Fuda will. 

The only plausibly threatening presence here is Kisame, not Mangetsu.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Trojan (Feb 11, 2017)

Anbu Knights said:


> Ignoring the other swordsman and clinging to hydro-mode since you're outta ammo? This just gets better and better.
> 
> FTG-Giri obviously won't work, but Kibaku Fuda will.
> 
> The only plausibly threatening presence here is Kisame, not Mangetsu.



Kibaku fude needs ET, and ET needs sacrifices, how is Tobirama going to use it?  



> The only plausibly threatening presence here is Kisame, not Mangetsu



Let's try to solve how he is going to deal with Mangetsu now, and then we can move on to the rest.


----------



## Anbu Knights (Feb 11, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Kibaku fude needs ET, and ET needs sacrifices, how is Tobirama going to use it?
> 
> 
> 
> Let's try to solve how he is going to deal with Mangetsu now, and then we can move on to the rest.



The databooks confirm that a living individual can also be used a medium for this technique.

He only needs a shadow clone...Mangetsu & his back-up dancers get grated like fine cheese. Unless Ameyuri the great or Jinpachi the fearsome is going to save the day here?


----------



## Trojan (Feb 11, 2017)

Anbu Knights said:


> The databooks confirm that a living individual can also be used a medium for this technique.
> 
> He only needs a shadow clone...Mangetsu & his back-up dancers get grated like fine cheese. Unless Ameyuri the great or Jinpachi the fearsome is going to save the day here?



So, you are saying Tobirama needs to kill himself in order to "possibly" killing Mangetsu? Because if he used it, he is dead as well. 

- A shadow clone using the explosion tags? That's utter BS.
The jutsu is made for ET, not Shadow clones, I don't know from where you came up with this fanfiction.

In order to bring the explosion tags out, the clones will have to stab themselves as Tobirama did here
why did he envy 

If they did, they will destroy themselves. 

That's the whole point of creating ET in Tobirama's case, to begin with.

Edit:
Even in the page above, Tobirama is saying that the explosion tags go with the ET.
Not the clones. lol


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 11, 2017)

Hussain said:


> This "He is faster than them" is pretty dumb tbh. He is far faster than Kin/Gin too (With FTG), did not stop them from wiping the floor with him.
> 
> 8th Gates Dai is also far faster than them, yet he was the one who died.



 You're right, retcons and inconsistencies do not happen, but wait, "Itachi's massacre on the Uchiha clan was retconned." Isn't that what's being said? Why does no such thing apply to Tobirama?


----------



## Trojan (Feb 11, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> You're right, retcons and inconsistencies do not happen, but wait, "Itachi's massacre on the Uchiha clan was retconned." Isn't that what's being said? Why does no such thing apply to Tobirama?



That's just Tobirama's wankers pity excuses. There was no retcon.

Kishi planned for Tobirama to be a S/T user since AT LEAST 501 (or around that). When Minato mentioned that Tobirama does have S/T jutsu.

Kishi originally stated that the Kinkaku unit killed him in Danzu's flashback (470 or around it, can't remember exactly).

And he brought Kin/Gin back again in 525 (or around it) and yet again, mentioned that they killed Tobirama. That was AFTER he decided that he is a S/T user. So, I don't see where the retcon exactly. 




> "Itachi's massacre on the Uchiha clan was retconned."


Not sure what you are referring to, tbh.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Anbu Knights (Feb 11, 2017)

Hussain said:


> So, you are saying Tobirama needs to kill himself in order to "possibly" killing Mangetsu? Because if he used it, he is dead as well.
> 
> - A shadow clone using the explosion tags? That's utter BS.
> The jutsu is made for ET, not Shadow clones, I don't know from where you came up with this fanfiction.
> ...



You're right about that, a shadow clone will not be suitable. 

Although if I am not mistaken Hydro is not passive, and is activated similar to Kakuzu's domu. Meaning the user is going to need to be more reactive then the attacker, especially when they have zero knowledge on the technique. 

Why isn't Hirashingiri working again?


----------



## Ryuzaki (Feb 11, 2017)

Tobirama would lose to this team, for starters can he even put down Mangetsu? Assume he does use Hiraishin, can't Mangetsu just liquify and absorb the attack. Suigetsu who wasn't as good as he was took on a Bijuu Dama Blast front and center. Zabuza and the other guys have their unique abilities as well, but a single shinobi cannot face these 7 alone without an overwhelming power. Hiraishin is great but we cannot attribute Minato's feats to him, even if we did, it goes out the window the moment the mist makes it way to the battlefield.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 11, 2017)

Anbu Knights said:


> You're right about that, a shadow clone will not be suitable.
> 
> Although if I am not mistaken Hydro is not passive, and is activated similar to Kakuzu's domu. Meaning the user is going to need to be more reactive then the attacker, especially when they have zero knowledge on the technique.
> 
> Why isn't Hirashingiri working again?



No, hydro IS passive.
Examples:
1- When Jugo attacked Suigetsu off-guard
Itachi clarifies that Izanami was activated earlier
Itachi clarifies that Izanami was activated earlier

2- When Naruto & co were searching for Sasuke and Karin broke the door on Suigetsu, he turned into water.
(I don't remember the number of the chapter)

and so on. So, no, he does not need to react to Tobirama, it will happen automatically.

Edit:
there is this time 2



She punched him off-guard.


----------



## Anbu Knights (Feb 11, 2017)

Hussain said:


> No, hydro IS passive.
> Examples:
> 1- When Jugo attacked Suigetsu off-guard
> Itachi clarifies that Izanami was activated earlier
> ...



I see, so if the ability is not toggled but passive then Hirashingiri would also not work. It appears it is me who is running low on ammo

Tobirama possessed all five chakra natures no? I don't see him continuing an effect-less attack over and over again when he has the proper tools for the job. Realistically raiton flow should be a painfully obvious option, even if not in his normal arsenal. _I'm sure this will be considered off panel feat so null-void _but Mangetsu contesting Tobirama is absurd, and I would hope you agree he can't best Tobirama.

Do tell what is Mangetsu going to do after he finishes playing aquarium and his back up dancers have all been carved up?

Edit: Hell he can even outlast him if need be.


Edit 2: Wait a cotton picking second. If Hydro was passive for his clan like you say then how would this be possible? Itachi clarifies that Izanami was activated earlier

I mean you showed a few examples (two of which were comic relief) and the other Suigestsu was definitely paying attention. This on the other hand is a contextual example during a battle showing that at some point they reach solidarity. 

Gaara's sand should have went right through him. This means at some point they are solidified and if that is the case Tobirama atomizes him.


----------



## Veracity (Feb 11, 2017)

The Tobirama downplay is something crazy here. He would murder Kisame just about as easy as Minato would. Now against all of the swordsman? Idk. Feats indicate he would kind of obliterate them considering not a single soul on the team can even react to Tobirama's footspeed . But he loses when portrayal is considered.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Trojan (Feb 11, 2017)

Anbu Knights said:


> I see, so if the ability is not toggled but passive then Hirashingiri would also not work. It appears it is me who is running low on ammo
> 
> Tobirama possessed all five chakra natures no? I don't see him continuing an effect-less attack over and over again when he has the proper tools for the job. Realistically raiton flow should be a painfully obvious option, even if not in his normal arsenal. _I'm sure this will be considered off panel feat so null-void _but Mangetsu contesting Tobirama is absurd, and I would hope you agree he can't best Tobirama.
> 
> Do tell what is Mangetsu going to do after he finishes playing aquarium and his back up dancers have all been carved up?



The databook does give Tobirama all 5 natures, but don't you think you are not being honest here? 
Earlier on, you refused to rely on hype/portrayal for the 7 swordsmen, even tho they had MUCH less time than Tobirama (except for Kisame) and you said it's off-panel and irrelevant.

So, why should we grant Tobirama Electric-type jutsu when he has never shown any? 
Or why would you even bring this point?




> Do tell what is Mangetsu going to do after he finishes playing aquarium and his back up dancers have all been carved up?



Mangetsu only got ONE-panel for an attack. So, since you don't want hype/portrayal/off-panel stuff. This will come to a war of attrition. Which will result in Tobirama's defeat at the end of the day because he is not beating 7 Ninja and continue to have a large amount of chakra left.

Which is why I don't take the logic that "No feat was shown, then that means he has nothing". That logic, in my opinion, is only kinda acceptable when the character was shown in 2-3 battles or at least one lengthy battle. Not ONE PANEL. 

But that concludes Mangetsu.


Now, if we want to move into Kisame for example.

Taken in consideration: *Knowledge:* Manga which means, Tobirama knows nothing.


We have already agreed
1- The explosion tags cannot be used by clones.
2- ET needs sacrifices in order to be used, which Tobirama does not have here.

That leaves Tobirama with stabs and pity Water-jutsu.

Now, if Kisame used his Shark mode.

Can you tell us how Tobirama is going to deal with him exactly?

Edit:


> Gaara's sand should have went right through him. This means at some point they are solidified and if that is the case Tobirama atomizes him.


The Mizukage is a bit different (for some reason, I don't know what). His body is made of water and oil. Not just water.

Mangetsu is like his brother, not the Mizukage. So, your point is irrelevant.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 11, 2017)

Itachi clarifies that Izanami was activated earlier

Gaara saying it's oil

Itachi clarifies that Izanami was activated earlier

Mizukage: physical attacks are useless

Itachi clarifies that Izanami was activated earlier

The Mizukage jutsu, just like him. Oil on top, and then water (naturally/obviously).


----------



## Android (Feb 11, 2017)

Someone stop @Hussain , owning like a villain .

Reactions: Funny 3


----------



## Serene Grace (Feb 11, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Someone stop @Hussain , owning like a villain .


more like downplaying like a villian

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Android (Feb 11, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> more like downplaying like a villian


Nah , it's 3-4 posters on 1 , and yet you guys are giving the feeling that he's outnumbering you all

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 11, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Now, if Kisame used his Shark mode.



Like in Ninja Storm 4, he'd spam Daikodan


----------



## Trojan (Feb 11, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> TD&TS crying downplay, cannot provide an argument worth a fuck
> 
> Typical.



That's the funny part. 

They can't provide an argument to how Tobirama can defeat 1 character, yet they expect him to defeat all 7. 

Especially when a good portion of them only have 1 panel of feats. Yet, they think it's logical to judge those characters based on that 1 panel.


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 11, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> ^
> ^
> ^
> ^
> Lmao @ looks like someone's still made that the absolute garbage that he produced in our debate, lead to him losing and not scoring S in a single category, stay trash posting fham I didn't even mention you, but anything to do with Kisame has to trigger you ..grow up kid.



Bad judges giving bad judgment 

But, no matter how much salt you spew rn, you're not providing an argument against Hussain, despite crying that he's downplaying 

grow up kid 

But seriously, if you think he's downplaying, provide an argument as to why Tobirama wins, if you can't, then sit down a shut up 



Hussain said:


> That's the funny part.
> 
> They can't provide an argument to how Tobirama can defeat 1 character, yet they expect him to defeat all 7.
> 
> Especially when a good portion of them only have 1 panel of feats. Yet, they think it's logical to judge those characters based on that 1 panel.



Tobirama gets low diffed by Kin and Gin.

Can kill the strongest of the 7SOTM's... 

I love the SOTM downplay

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 11, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Even Zabuza could solo.
> 
> Restrict Kirigakure no jutsu, it's too much.



 sensors can find zabuza in mist 
Hilarious


----------



## Veracity (Feb 11, 2017)

It's not hard to present an argument for Tobirama beating both Zabuza and Kisame simultaneously lol. I mean come on, let's be real here, they both can't even react to his footspeed let alone FTG attacks.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 11, 2017)

7 of them will murder tobirama though 
But the samehada absorbs hirashin mark is straight up retarded

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Trojan (Feb 11, 2017)

Veracity said:


> It's not hard to present an argument for Tobirama beating both Zabuza and Kisame simultaneously lol. I mean come on, let's be real here, they both can't even react to his footspeed let alone FTG attacks.



Tobirama's footspeed/shunshin is as good as that of old Hiruzen (who is slower than Kakashi/Gai, mind you)
reactions that eluded Amaterasu

So, I don't know what basis do you have for this argument. Tobirama's shunshin is nothing special from what we have seen. Unless you think they can't react to Hiruzen 2, but then you will have to explain how did they fight Kakashi/Gai who are faster.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 11, 2017)

Veracity said:


> The Tobirama downplay is something crazy here. He would murder Kisame just about as easy as Minato would. Now against all of the swordsman? Idk. Feats indicate he would kind of obliterate them considering not a single soul on the team can even react to Tobirama's footspeed . But he loses when portrayal is considered.



He doesn't lose when portrayal is considered. He was regarded as the strongest among the Kages; consistently outperforming Minato, Naruto, and EMS Sasuke and defeated MS Izuna who would slaughter most of the Legendary Swordsman with the upmost ease. Since then, Tobirama had years to refine his skills and master numerous kinjutsu, so there's no way Tobirama loses out from a portrayal standpoint. Tobirama's defeat against Kin & Gin was a mere retcon and given Darui's performance against them, this is the most likely conclusion.

Kishimoto is not consistent; things that were previously established such as Jiraiya's inability to tame Gamabunta and Minato, Jiraiya, and Naruto being among the only ones who knew the Rasengan was retconned immediately. Haku sobbing and dejectedly admitting inferiority to KN0 Naruto? Retconned, he was now operating on a level that deflected Gai and Lee simultaneously, put numerous Jounin to shame during the War, and was regarded as a powerful shinobi in Kabuto's eyes.

I'd be baffled if one could even argue that Tobirama's portrayal is worse than Darui's when he defeated Izuna decisively.

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 2


----------



## Veracity (Feb 11, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Tobirama's footspeed/shunshin is as good as that of old Hiruzen (who is slower than Kakashi/Gai, mind you)
> reactions that eluded Amaterasu
> 
> So, I don't know what basis do you have for this argument. Tobirama's shunshin is nothing special from what we have seen. Unless you think they can't react to Hiruzen 2, but then you will have to explain how did they fight Kakashi/Gai who are faster.



Are you seriously gonna waste my time with that? Like we haven't argued that same nonsense multiple times in the past?

Traveling speed =\= combat speed. Tobirama, Hashirama and Hiruzen don't all possess the same flicker speed that doesn't make a lick of sense and is straight up unsupported.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Parallaxis (Feb 11, 2017)

The two people in this thread arguing for the SOTM are Tobirama haters.

One of them refers to Tobirama as a white haired autistic on a consistent basis and says he is below a pile of trash.

One of them has held a deep hatred of him ever since people started arguing that he triumphs over Minato in a fight and shows extreme animosity towards his brother as well.



But Hussain is right that we haven't seen most of them so in my eyes by portrayal all 7 would win.

By pure feats he literally murders them casually

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2 | Disagree 1


----------



## Veracity (Feb 11, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> He doesn't lose when portrayal is considered. He was regarded as the strongest among the Kages; consistently outperforming Minato, Naruto, and EMS Sasuke and defeated MS Izuna who would slaughter most of the Legendary Swordsman with the upmost ease. Since then, Tobirama had years to refine his skills and master numerous kinjutsu, so there's no way Tobirama loses out from a portrayal standpoint. Tobirama's defeat against Kin & Gin was a mere retcon and given Darui's performance against them, this is the most likely conclusion.
> 
> Kishimoto is not consistent; things that were previously established such as Jiraiya's inability to tame Gamabunta and Minato, Jiraiya, and Naruto being among the only ones who knew the Rasengan was retconned immediately. Haku sobbing and dejectedly admitting inferiority to KN0 Naruto? Retconned, he was now operating on a level that deflected Gai and Lee simultaneously, put numerous Jounin to shame during the War, and was regarded as a powerful shinobi in Kabuto's eyes.
> 
> I'd be baffled if one could even argue that Tobirama's portrayal is worse than Darui's when he defeated Izuna decisively.


Him losing to Kim and Gin had to be a retcon. The man who invented FTG, is getting cornered and has to be a decoy? Doesn't make any sense.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Serene Grace (Feb 11, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Bad judges giving bad judgment
> 
> But, no matter how much salt you spew rn, you're not providing an argument against Hussain, despite crying that he's downplaying
> 
> ...


Bad judging? making excuses make you look desperate, just stop bro. You lost because your arguments weren't good enough, accept it and stop being salty at me, I told you I already don't care about that debate.

@Hussain its not that I can't give you an argument, you're just doing two things that make it unappealing to debate this matter with you.

1. You're being hypocritical. You're saying that Tobirama's speed doesn't give him an advantage in this battle, despite you preaching Minato's speed to be the trump card in nearly all his matchups in other threads...yah

2. You're using off panel shit, to base 75% of your arguments. Using the off panel "dying to 20 fodder" to downplay Tobirama, is like me using Kakuzu surviving a match against Hashirama, or Hashirama dying in the war to downplay Hashirama..It clearly makes no sense as we never actual saw what went down, so using it as a basis is kind of funny. Why not use Tobirama's feat of defeating an MS user who was stated to be on par with ms Madara, why not bring in his performance in the war arc? 

take these two factors out of your argument and I'll be perfectly fine debating the matter with you. You're a cool guy and a great debater and all, but I just can't argue with you on this matter, you have a clear bias against tobirama that's so bad that it hits the ceiling

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 11, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Him losing to Kim and Gin had to be a retcon. The man who invented FTG, is getting cornered and has to be a decoy? Doesn't make any sense.



Exactly, defeating fodder is an effortless task and something that every Kage accomplished in the War Arc and Tobirama is among the * strongest of Kages *. There is no way he'd lose to Kin and Gin when they were explicitly stated to be lackluster in power. They were reviled as fearsome criminals according to legends that are bound by lies and mendacity and clearly based on the feats presented illustrates they aren't fearsome Kages by any means, they're among the weakest. They cannot occupy an entire Shinobi Division such as Sandaime Raikage, Gengetsu, and even Zabuza even if they were assisted by Rikudou's tools. There is no conceivable way Tobirama would've ever lost to them unless Kishimoto was drunk when he foolishly wrote this.


----------



## Parallaxis (Feb 11, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Bad judging? making excuses make you look desperate, just stop bro. You lost because your arguments weren't good enough, accept it and stop being salty at me, I told you I already don't care about that debate.
> 
> @Hussain its not that I can't give you an argument, you're just doing two things that make it unappealing to debate this matter with you.
> 
> ...


Lol
Not worth arguing with him on Hashirama either

In fact, he DOES use those instances to downplay Hashirama. He is extremely biased against him, probably to spite SnK IMO.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Ishmael (Feb 11, 2017)

It's crazy cause he was regarded as the fastest of his time without and with FTG and peeps are throwing it to the side likes it's irrelevant. 
I've seen the seven ninja swordsman and all were taken down during the war as edos barely any difficulty at all. 
As far as I'm concerned most can agree tobirama takes this there's only legit like two dudes disagreeing and that's because of some salt and them being bias.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 11, 2017)

LAZLOLAZZING said:


> there's only legit like two dudes disagreeing and that's because of some salt and them being bias.



Polls.


----------



## Bonly (Feb 11, 2017)

Kisame and Fuguki both use Samehada so one of them will be fighting at half strength but we don't know to much about half these guys and the jutsu they could do so they might beat Tobi depending on what they got as a distraction could change the scales of battle into their favor but hard to say so I'd say it could go either way.


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 11, 2017)

Bonly said:


> Kisame and Fuguki both use Samehada so one of them will be fighting at half strength but we don't know to much about half these guys and the jutsu they could do so they might beat Tobi depending on what they got as a distraction could change the scales of battle into their favor but hard to say so I'd say it could go either way.



Fuguki you're right about that, but we have seen Kisame fight without Samehada. He still possesses his trump card (Daikodan) 

Fuguki is trash even with Samehada though. He got beat by a 20 or so y/o Kisame, wielding a regular blade, with presumably no big jutsu yet. 

Kisame could solo tobi, with Mangetsu, Chojuro and Zabuza there, this pushes it down to a max of low difficulty. Tobirama died fighting 18 fodder, and 2 low kage level shinobi 

How is he going to oppose the strongest wielders of their respective swords amongst all generations (Kisame, Chojuro, Mangetsu) (Suigetsu is above Zabuza imo though, so he's not the strongest wielder of Kubikiri imo)

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## Android (Feb 11, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Kakuzu surviving a match against Hashirama, or Hashirama dying in the war to downplay Hashirama.


Hussain already uses these two events as solid arguments


----------



## Android (Feb 11, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> probably to spite SnK IMO.


Can you blame him ??


----------



## Bonly (Feb 11, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Fuguki you're right about that, but we have seen Kisame fight without Samehada. He still possesses his trump card (Daikodan)



Still would be at half strength but ok..



> Fuguki is trash even with Samehada though. He got beat by a 20 or so y/o Kisame, wielding a regular blade, with presumably no big jutsu yet.



We don't know what Kisame was actually capable of or how the fight went down, all I know is that Obito commented that Fuguki was careless around Kisame which hints to me that he wasn't on guard which could've allowed Kisame to land a fatal blow or something. In otherwords I have no reason to assume he's trash due to that off panel fight.



> Kisame could solo tobi, with Mangetsu, Chojuro and Zabuza there, this pushes it down to a max of low difficulty. Tobirama died fighting 18 fodder, and 2 low kage level shinobi
> 
> How is he going to oppose the strongest wielders of their respective swords amongst all generations (Kisame, Chojuro, Mangetsu) (Suigetsu is above Zabuza imo though, so he's not the strongest wielder of Kubikiri imo)



Our views on this is on two completely different sides of the spectrum so I'm not even gonna touch this.


----------



## Serene Grace (Feb 11, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Hussain already uses these two events as solid arguments


Lmao, he must enjoy downplaying the senju bros..what did they ever do to him? 

Anyways I hope everyone got the jist of my point that using those as arguments to downplay a character is laughable at best, especially when those said characters have feats that severely contradict those bs off panel fights.


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 11, 2017)

Bonly said:


> Still would be at half strength but ok..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But Fuguki got one shotted by Kakashi tf u mean we don't know what Fuguki can do.

If Fuguki was supposed to be viewed as powerful, Kishi would have made it clear when he was brought back as an Edo. He got outperformed by almost every swordsman, something that would not happen to Kisame.


----------



## Serene Grace (Feb 11, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Because you're obnoxious no matter what, not just in the debate.


-_- anytime that I've been "obnoxious" to you, is when I was either joking with you, or it was just my regular debating style.

@GuidingThunder knows what I mean. Yall always think me and him are trying to be mean, or malicious it's just the way we debate, I/we don't actually mean to disrespect anyone. Well given the stuff you've said in the past to me, it's pretty ironic for you to be complaining about me being obnoxious

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## Android (Feb 11, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Lmao, he must enjoy downplaying the senju bros..what did they ever do to him?


That's not what i meant tho 
I know i talk shit about Hashirama and Itachi most of the time , but i don't exactly downplay them , i have Hashirama as the strongest non six paths powerd up / 8th gates using character , and i have Itachi as the strongest in the Akatsuki after Tobi and Pain 
Tobirama ? i don't exactly have any feelings for the guy , i actually tend to like him , and if i want to gauge his strength , i'd say he's above Itachi and below Minato in level , but not too far .


----------



## Serene Grace (Feb 11, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> That's not what i meant tho
> I know i talk shit about Hashirama and Itachi most of the time , but i don't exactly downplay them , i have Hashirama as the strongest non six paths powerd up / 8th gates using character , and i have Itachi as the strongest in the Akatsuki after Tobi and Pain
> Tobirama ? i don't exactly have any feelings for the guy , i actually tend to like him , and if i want to gauge his strength , i'd say he's above Itachi and below Minato in level , but not too far .


? I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to Hussain


----------



## Android (Feb 11, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> ? I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to Hussain


I know that already . Just wanted to say that not liking a character = downplaying . I don't exactly follow Hussain's posts and don't know if he hates/likes Tobirama .

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Bonly (Feb 11, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> You're just assuming that Fuguki can do everything Kisame can do, that's just ridiculous.
> 
> There was no indication that Fuguki could merge with Samehada, I don't think it's something anyone can do.
> 
> ...



Nothing suggest that Kisame is a special case in the history of all Samehada users when it comes to only wielding Samehada that he is the only one to get the benefits that Samehada provides.  Unless I happen to is that chapter upon which I'd love for you to point it out to me.


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 11, 2017)

Bonly said:


> Nothing suggest that Kisame is a special case in the history of all Samehada users when it comes to only wielding Samehada that he is the only one to get the benefits that Samehada provides.  Unless I happen to is that chapter upon which I'd love for you to point it out to me.



Besides being the only one who has done it on panel.

One of the swordsman, Mei or Kisame would have mentioned it at some point. If Fuguki was capable of merging, Kisame would have undoubtedly mentioned it. Somebody would have noted it. Fuguki would have done it vs Kakashi's division. Kisame is a couple of tiers above Fuguki based on feats and hype.

I don't doubt while wielding Samehada, Fuguki would have the benefits of the blade (Chakra absorption, Regen etc) but the Merge is clearly something unique to Kisame. If it wasn't, why didn't Bee use it?


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 11, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> @rhone wide
> 
> lmao XD!!!



I thought his post was insightful

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Bonly (Feb 11, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Besides being the only one who has done it on panel.
> 
> One of the swordsman, Mei or Kisame would have mentioned it at some point. If Fuguki was capable of merging, Kisame would have undoubtedly mentioned it. Somebody would have noted it.



This is piss poor logic. Who and why would someone mention such a thing? Why would Mei mention Fuguki fusing with the sword? Would it be relevant when fighting Sasuke? Would it be relevant when all the Gokage members were talking? ho would Kisame mention such a thing to and why? When would the other swordsmen(who we barely saw) mention such a thing when the were mindless when brought back via Edo? Actual think of a time where Fuguki being able to erge with Samehada would matter to any of the people you mention in order for it to brought up otherwise this is just piss poor logic.



> Fuguki would have done it vs Kakashi's division Kisame is a couple of tiers above Fuguki based on feats and hype.



First off actually read the manga, Fuguki(as well as Mangetsu) didn't have his sword aka Samehada during the fight(since it was with Killer B) so he wouldn't be able to fuse with it against Kakashi's division so your logic is flawed. You claimed that Kishi didn't make/imply that Fuguki was powerful and I'm saying otherwise via the manga, your opinion about the tiers between them don't matter to this conversion. 



> I don't doubt while wielding Samehada, Fuguki would have the benefits of the blade (Chakra absorption, Regen etc) but the Merge is clearly something unique to Kisame. If it wasn't, why didn't Bee use it?



Killer B never had Samehada absorb chakra and give it to him, I guess this means that said ability is unique to Kisame only amiright? No, Killer B doesn't equal Kisame and they don't use the sword as often as each other nor do they use it the same way so just because Killer B didn't do something doesn't mean said ability is unique to Kisame, that's just poor logic on your part, yet again.


----------



## Ishmael (Feb 11, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Polls.



So it's 5 of youwhat a Shame

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 11, 2017)

Bonly said:


> This is piss poor logic. Who and why would someone mention such a thing? Why would Mei mention Fuguki fusing with the sword? Would it be relevant when fighting Sasuke? Would it be relevant when all the Gokage members were talking? ho would Kisame mention such a thing to and why? When would the other swordsmen(who we barely saw) mention such a thing when the were mindless when brought back via Edo? Actual think of a time where Fuguki being able to erge with Samehada would matter to any of the people you mention in order for it to brought up otherwise this is just piss poor logic.



Kisame would have mentioned it when he merged with Samehada most likely, no clue why you're so salty.



Bonly said:


> First off actually read the manga, Fuguki(as well as Mangetsu) didn't have his sword aka Samehada during the fight(since it was with Killer B) so he wouldn't be able to fuse with it against Kakashi's division so your logic is flawed. You claimed that Kishi didn't make/imply that Fuguki was powerful and I'm saying otherwise via the manga, your opinion about the tiers between them don't matter to this conversion.



My bad, was thinking of something else not relevant to the Kakashi divison battle 

Call it a brain fart and pretend it didnt happen lol



Bonly said:


> Killer B never had Samehada absorb chakra and give it to him, I guess this means that said ability is unique to Kisame only amiright? No, Killer B doesn't equal Kisame and they don't use the sword as often as each other nor do they use it the same way so just because Killer B didn't do something doesn't mean said ability is unique to Kisame, that's just poor logic on your part, yet again.



Since when does Samehada have to absorb chakra to merge? This is never indicated.


Your entire post is making excuses for people who have had opportunities to merge and didn't.

If the merge was a "basic" Samehada ability, Bee would have used it, it doesn't matter if they don't use it "the same way". Bee would have chased Kisame off of turtle island and killed him with the Samehada merge or something. Kishi had oppurtunities to show the Samehada merge on another Shinobi, and he didn't. The only reason for this is that it's obviously an ability unique to Kisame.


----------



## Ishmael (Feb 11, 2017)

lol can't wait to see bonlys response


----------



## Bonly (Feb 11, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame would have mentioned it when he merged with Samehada most likely, no clue why you're so salty.



Again. WHY? Give me a reason why he would randomly bring up Fuguki fusing with Samehada to Killer B. All you say is that people would've mentioned it but you don't give any reason as to why they would randomly mention it. 




> Since when does Samehada have to absorb chakra to merge? This is never indicated.



Not sure if trolling me or what. Let me make this clear since you seem to not understand it. 

Do you see how Kisame took the chakra that Samehada took from Killer B and gave it to himself.

What I said is that Killer B has never done such a thing, which he hasn't. I never said anything about Samehada needing to merge in order to absorb chakra. 

Are you following that? If not keep rereading until you understand it, if you get it then read below.

Now your logic is "hurr durr Killer B didn't do something therefore it's unique to Kisame"

So that means that by your own logic, chakra absorption and passing along said chakra is unique to Kisame and Fuguki wouldn't have it.

Buttttttt earlier in a post you said "*Fuguki would have the benefits of the blade (Chakra absorption, Regen etc*) but the Merge is clearly something unique to Kisame. If it wasn't, why didn't Bee use it?" despite the fact that Killer B has never shown such a thing(Killer B also never shown to use Regen via Samehada either).

Are you with me so far? If not reread until you get it, if you do get it then read below.

By your logic almost everything that Samehada has done would be unique to Kisame simply because Killer B never showed to do the same. But you contradict said logic by you granting Fuguki the Regen and other abilities bar merging. 

So which is it? Is Killer B not doing something means that almost everything is unique to Kisame? 

Or is it a case that Killer B not doing something(such as not merging) doesn't outright mean that said ability is unique to Kisame?



> Your entire post is making excuses for people who have had opportunities to merge and didn't.
> 
> If the merge was a "basic" Samehada ability, Bee would have used it, it doesn't matter if they don't use it "the same way". Bee would have chased Kisame off of turtle island and killed him with the Samehada merge or something. Kishi had oppurtunities to show the Samehada merge on another Shinobi, and he didn't. The only reason for this is that it's obviously an ability unique to Kisame.



And your post in nothing but shit logic to imply that only Kisame can do something when nothing backs it up. We've only seen Hiruzen use all elements, does this mean he's the only one capable of it? No. Why? because Kishi has stated others could do it be it in the manga or the DB. Kisame and Samehada is no different. We've seen all of two people actually use the sword on panel and one of those two people barely used Samehada(aka Killer B). Therefore if your only go to is "hurr durr Killer B didn't do it" then the ground your point stands on is worthless as that's not good enough evidence since the didn't use the sword the exact same way. What YOU think Killer B should've pr could've or would've done is not what Kishi would actually have done which is where your point falls apart.

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 11, 2017)

Bonly said:


> Again. WHY? Give me a reason why he would randomly bring up Fuguki fusing with Samehada to Killer B. All you say is that people would've mentioned it but you don't give any reason as to why they would randomly mention it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Not sure why you're being rude.

I'd be happy to address you...when you get the 'tude in check


----------



## Bonly (Feb 11, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Not sure why you're being rude.
> 
> I'd be happy to address you...when you get the 'tude in check



Concession accepted.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 11, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Not sure why you're being rude.
> 
> I'd be happy to address you...when you get the 'tude in check



Except he's right lol. Bee refraining from using Samehada's unique abilities doesn't pertain to Fuguki at all. Kisame only exhibited these abilities because his entire fighting style revolves around Samehada; this actually pertains to Fuguki because the Swordsman are said to be significantly stronger with their respective weapon. Fuguki is among that group, so there's plenty reason to assume he can use these abilities. The reason he didn't is because he had minimum panel time, but considering other Swordsman could take advantage of their blade's abilities, the same should apply to Fuguki.

 Well, unless that's not what you're arguing, then I dunno. I don't read all this shit. 

That said, I do think there is little credence in Fuguki possessing Samehada fusion only because that technique was specifically designed for Waterdome and was included in Waterdome's DB Entry at all. It's intrinsic to Waterdome and I certainly do not believe Fuguki has the ability to conjure it.

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 11, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Well, unless that's not what you're arguing, then I dunno. I don't read all this shit.



Skimmed his post, saw 2 attempts at trolling or insulting and didn't read the rest 

*-snip-*

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 11, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Skimmed his post, saw 2 attempts at trolling or insulting and didn't read the rest
> 
> Not going to address those who are being cunts.



Likewise, we shouldn't address those who don't have the decency to concede.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 11, 2017)

Bonly said:


> Again. WHY? Give me a reason why he would randomly bring up Fuguki fusing with Samehada to Killer B. All you say is that people would've mentioned it but you don't give any reason as to why they would randomly mention it.



Kisame would likely have mentioned it when he merged with Samehada, reminiscing about his former sensei or something like that would've happened had Fuguki shown the ability to merge.



Bonly said:


> Not sure if trolling me or what. Let me make this clear since you seem to not understand it.
> 
> Do you see how Kisame took the chakra that Samehada took from Killer B and gave it to himself.
> 
> ...



That's transfering chakra, not merging 

That scan provides nothing when discussing the merge, stop being stupid.



Bonly said:


> Now your logic is "hurr durr Killer B didn't do something therefore it's unique to Kisame"
> 
> So that means that by your own logic, chakra absorption and passing along said chakra is unique to Kisame and Fuguki wouldn't have it.
> 
> Buttttttt earlier in a post you said "*Fuguki would have the benefits of the blade (Chakra absorption, Regen etc*) but the Merge is clearly something unique to Kisame. If it wasn't, why didn't Bee use it?" despite the fact that Killer B has never shown such a thing(Killer B also never shown to use Regen via Samehada either).



Because Kisame describes what the blade does to people 

It's clearly a basic function of the blade, as even Bee, who hadn't mastered Samehada yet was able to utilize it.

It's possible one can unlock the ability to merge with Samehada, but the blade is not something u can pick up and do whatever the fuck with. It takes a long time to master, due to the fact that Mangetsu didn't have enough time in his life to master the blade.

Are you going to tell me Mangetsu possesses the ability to merge with Samehada?

*-snip-*

Reactions: Funny 3


----------



## Serene Grace (Feb 11, 2017)

I thought you and bonly were boys @Troyse22


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 11, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I thought you and bonly were boys @Troyse22



That's why i'm saying idk where it came from, legit did nothing to him to receive these insults

Reactions: Friendly 1


----------



## Serene Grace (Feb 11, 2017)

Don't think there's much left for this thread, me, @UchihaX28 , and  @Veracity pretty much already soloed it, this thread shall be gone to the abyss of unbumped threads

Reactions: Winner 2


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Feb 11, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Don't think there's much left for this thread, me, @UchihaX28 , and  @Veracity pretty much already soloed it, this thread shall be gone to the abyss of unbumped threads


How...

Can 3 people collectively "solo" something???


----------



## Bonly (Feb 11, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame would likely have mentioned it when he merged with Samehada, *reminiscing about his former sensei or something like that* would've happened had Fuguki shown the ability to merge.



Do you see Itachi thinking of Shisui every time he uses crow based abilities? No. Do you see Naruto thinking of Jiraiya every time he uses Rasengan? No. Do you see Sasuke thinking of Kakashi every time he uses Chidori? No. Do you see Onoki thinking of Mu every time he uses Jinton? No. I could go on but you get the point, so no the bold is not a good enough reason to suggest Fuguki couldn't fuse with Samehada. 




> That's transfering chakra, not merging
> 
> That scan provides nothing when discussing the merge, stop being stupid.



The only one being stupid here is you if you can't understand something so basic after I make it obviously clear for you twice now when it comes to that scan.


> Because Kisame describes what the blade does to people
> 
> It's clearly a basic function of the blade, as even Bee, who hadn't mastered Samehada yet was able to utilize it.
> 
> It's possible one can unlock the ability to merge with Samehada, but the blade is not something u can pick up and do whatever the fuck with.



Fuguki was around to fight Dai along with a few other Swordsmen and lived for another few year so he was with Samehada for some time upon which I don't doubt that fusing is something outside the realm of possibility for him. 



> It takes a long time to master, due to the fact that Mangetsu didn't have enough time in his life to master the blade.
> 
> Are you going to tell me Mangetsu possesses the ability to merge with Samehada?



I don't recall such a statement being made, do you have a scan?





> The rest, I don't feel like reading, frankly your sudden toxic attitude is making me sick.



No you read it, you just wanna ignore it because you know it' pokes all the holes in your argument. I even color coded it to help you understand the flaw in your logic to help you out 


> Not sure where it came from, but you're annoying as fuck. Late onset of puberty maybe?
> 
> Regardless, grow the fuck up.



It came from your constantly stupidity over the last few post.

You "How is it we don't know much about Fuguki"? Despite that you can't mention anything about him outside of being a swordsmen
You "He's not portrayed as powerful" despite Kishi actual doing that in the manga.
You "Killer B didn't do something therefore it's unique to Kisame" when that logic is horrible as Killer B damn near never used Samehada(he used it like one time lol)
You bringing up things that didn't happen
You're not actual paying attention to the post making me repeat himself thus forcing to break things down and use extra colors to help you understand the flaws in your logic

In general you're just an insufferable brat when it comes to anything Kisame related and I don't care for any pleasantries with you when you bring me terrible logic and treat it as if it's a fact hence why I ignore 90 percent of your Kisame post so if you don't like it then bring something better then bad logic or draw a bridge and get over it. Outside of Kisame threads you're ok but unlike others, I don't care to deal with your buffoonery when it comes to his threads.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Ryuzaki (Feb 11, 2017)

still cant understand how he engages all 7


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 12, 2017)

Bonly said:


> buffoonery






Bonly said:


> Do you see Itachi thinking of Shisui every time he uses crow based abilities? No



Shisui was not his sensei.

They had more of a brother type of relationship. Similar to Naruto/Pre-emo Sasuke, Madara/Izuna etc, as opposed to something like Naruto/Jiraiya



Bonly said:


> Do you see Naruto thinking of Jiraiya every time he uses Rasengan



Homie thinks about him almost any time he does something impressive (I exaggerate here ofc, but he thinks about him frequently)



Bonly said:


> Do you see Sasuke thinking of Kakashi every time he uses Chidori?



Because Sasuke is an emo pleb.



Bonly said:


> Do you see Onoki thinking of Mu every time he uses Jinton? No



He stated where he learned the jutsu from though 

This point only supports mine.



Bonly said:


> Fuguki was around to fight Dai along with a few other Swordsmen and lived for another few year so he was with Samehada for some time upon which I don't doubt that fusing is something outside the realm of possibility for him.



Other SOTM's lived too, if it was just Fuguki you'd have a point, but it wasn't.



Bonly said:


> I don't recall such a statement being made, do you have a scan?



No, one of the SOTM's said it in passing, i'd have to dig for the scan, but I don't even remember around what chapter it was at.

I believe Chojuro is the one who mentioned this. I'll dig for the scan sometime soon, but i'm a little too tired to go digging for scans.



Bonly said:


> No you read it, you just wanna ignore it because you know it' pokes all the holes in your argument. I even color coded it to help you understand the flaw in your logic to help you out



I really didn't read it because your toxic attitude doesn't deserve to be rewarded.



Bonly said:


> You "How is it we don't know much about Fuguki"? Despite that you can't mention anything about him outside of being a swordsmen



Because Fuguki doesn't have great feats or hype.

Mangetsu has notable hype.
Chojuro has his fair share of feats.
Suigetsu has his fair share of feats and hype
Kisame has his fair share of feats and hype

Fuguki is lacking in these categories. 

None of the SOTM's are fodder by any means, they made it into that group for a reason, they're powerful, but they all certainly are not equal.

I consider myself pretty knowledgeable regarding all of the SOTM's (as they're my favorite organization in the manga) and I re-read the chapters each SOTM is in semi-frequently. it's not that I don't know anything about Fuguki, it's that there's nothing really to know.



Bonly said:


> You "He's not portrayed as powerful" despite Kishi actual doing that in the manga.



He wasn't portrayed as powerful.

Kisame>Mangetsu>Fuguki



Bonly said:


> You "Killer B didn't do something therefore it's unique to Kisame" when that logic is horrible as Killer B damn near never used Samehada(*he used it like one time* lol)



Look at that contradiction



Bonly said:


> *You're not actual paying attention to the post* making me repeat himself thus forcing to break things down and use extra colors to help you understand the flaws in your logic



@ bold, exactly. Stop being a jerk, and i'll give your posts more attention, but you haven't earned that yet.



Bonly said:


> In general you're just an insufferable brat when it comes to anything Kisame related



Sorry that you can't beat me in a Kisame vs X debate 

You're an insufferable brat when it comes to anything Tsunade/Katsuyu related.



Bonly said:


> I don't care for any pleasantries with you when you bring me terrible logic and treat it as if it's a fact hence why I ignore 90 percent of your Kisame post



Maybe pay attention to them, you might actually learn something you didn't know. I educate the NBD, one person at a time.


Before I became essentially a Kisame focused NBD debater, people viewed Kisame under Kakuzu, now most at least consider him only slightly below Itachi or on par with him (not where I view him, but its a step in the right direction) There are still those who cling to their Itachi negs him logic, but those are the close minded simpletons whom I have no time for. 


If you're not going to open your mind @Bonly then why are you on these forums


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 12, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> still cant understand how he engages all 7



He doesn't, but Minato/Tobirama wank is still rampant on the forums. As far as some debaters are concerned, Tobirama and Minato can take out every Shinobi in existence because "lol speed"


----------



## Trojan (Feb 12, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> @Hussain
> 
> How rude! How fuckin rude of you Hussain!
> 
> I had the decency to retract my dislike and this is what I get!? These salty disagrees! And without even a proper rebuttal!? Blasphemy! Refute my post now you filthy mongrel, I will not be humiliated like this!



I was running out of time and I had to go out. Disagreeing is the fastest way. 
Especially where there were a good number of retarded posts with shit logic. 

But, here, I will reply to you. 




UchihaX28 said:


> He doesn't lose when portrayal is considered. He was regarded as the strongest among the Kages; consistently outperforming Minato, Naruto, and EMS Sasuke and defeated MS Izuna who would slaughter most of the Legendary Swordsman with the upmost ease. Since then, Tobirama had years to refine his skills and master numerous kinjutsu, so there's no way Tobirama loses out from a portrayal standpoint. Tobirama's defeat against Kin & Gin was a mere retcon and given Darui's performance against them, this is the most likely conclusion.
> 
> Kishimoto is not consistent; things that were previously established such as Jiraiya's inability to tame Gamabunta and Minato, Jiraiya, and Naruto being among the only ones who knew the Rasengan was retconned immediately. Haku sobbing and dejectedly admitting inferiority to KN0 Naruto? Retconned, he was now operating on a level that deflected Gai and Lee simultaneously, put numerous Jounin to shame during the War, and was regarded as a powerful shinobi in Kabuto's eyes.
> 
> I'd be baffled if one could even argue that Tobirama's portrayal is worse than Darui's when he defeated Izuna decisively.



1- What portrayal puts Tobirama above all 7 at the same time?
2- When/where was he regarded as the strongest among the Kages?
3- How did he outperform Minato, Naruto, or Sasuke? You must not take every little shit  that happens as "outperforming others"

By that logic, Hiruzen outperformed them as well when he saved Naruto when they couldn't. Karin outperformed Hiruzen when she destroyed the Buddha, ino outperformed BM Naruto when she saved Choji...etc etc. You should take the events, context, and situation into consideration.

4- You said MS Izuna would slighter them Swordsmen, what does Izuna even have? If the swordsmen got 1 panel of attack, Izuna did not get anything at all. 

So, how is Tobirama killing Izuna is such a huge feat, but the swordsmen fighting against 8 Gates users, B (perfect host), taking on an entire division is less that lolIzuna?

5- You are saying Tobirama's defeat is a retcon, but what is your basis on this? Is it a retcon because you did not like that Tobirama from the author's point of view is less than what you consider him to be?

For example, when I saw X is a retcon, there should be something that clearly shows otherwise:
A: in part 1, Tobirama was consider as a great Water-style user because he can use Water-style moves without a nearby source. However, in part 2, ALL characters, even nameless fodders, can use Water-style moves without a nearby source. You can claim that
it's a retcon based on that fact.

B: White Zetsu was originaly stated that he is made of Hashirama's cells. However, Hago, Zetsu, and Sasuke came later on and said, no, they are people from Kaguya's time that were under MT, and they turned into Zetsu. You can say this is a retcon.

This is not the case in Tobirama however. It's not like at first it was stated that he got defeated by Kin & Gin, and later on it was stated something like; no, it was Tobirama who actually killed them. 

6- You examples are all outrageous. Terrible, just terrible. I don't even know from where to start with them, to be honest. 


It's that logic that is someone did something, now mater how trivial it is, people lose their brains and come to such retarded conclusions.


----------



## Bonly (Feb 12, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Shisui was not his sensei.
> 
> They had more of a brother type of relationship. Similar to Naruto/Pre-emo Sasuke, Madara/Izuna etc, as opposed to something like Naruto/Jiraiya
> 
> ...



Fuguki wasn't Kisame's Sensei either, he worked under him like how the sound four work under Orochi or like how Kabuto worked under Orochi so the Shisui example is valid to the point and Onoki only stated such after he Shika questioned him about it, he didn't randomly say "Hey guys I learned Jinton from Mu" hence why you didn't see him say such when he used Jinton against Sasuke or Deidara or any other time.




> Other SOTM's lived too, if it was just Fuguki you'd have a point, but it wasn't.



What does it matter if other Swordsmen lived? See this is what I'm talking about when I say you don't pay attention. My point is that due to that battle and him living, that means he had Samehada for years. That means he had years to try and master it. That means he had years upon which he could have learned how to fuse with Samehada. That means there's a possibility that he could do it which is a response to you saying "it's possible one can unlock the ability to merge with Samehada, but the blade is not something u can pick up and do whatever the fuck with.". So what exactly do the other swordsmen surviving have to do with my point?




> No, one of the SOTM's said it in passing, i'd have to dig for the scan, but I don't even remember around what chapter it was at.
> 
> I believe Chojuro is the one who mentioned this. I'll dig for the scan sometime soon, but i'm a little too tired to go digging for scans.



I look forward to the scan because the only statement about him that I recall is that he could use all seven swords.



> I really didn't read it because your toxic attitude doesn't deserve to be rewarded.



If you didn't read it then how do you know it's toxic compared to the rest of the post which you quoted? It's ok though I accept your concession.



> Because Fuguki doesn't have great feats or hype.



Stopped reading here. As I said, read the manga which brings him back as one of the strongest Generation of swordsmen to see that Kishi views him as powerful.



> None of the SOTM's are fodder by any means,* they made it into that group for a reason, they're powerful*, but they all certainly are not equal.
> 
> I consider myself pretty knowledgeable regarding all of the SOTM's (as they're my favorite organization in the manga) and I re-read the chapters each SOTM is in semi-frequently. it's not that I don't know anything about Fuguki, it's that there's nothing really to know.
> 
> ...



At this point I'm just wasting my time. First you say he wasn't portrayed as powerful then you say the bold above and then you go back and say the red. Not only have you failed to read the manga which shows Fuguki being powerful to be part of the most powerful generation of swordsmen along with him being brought back without his sword which is half his power but you also keep flip flopping. 



> Kisame>Mangetsu>Fuguki



I'm talking about Fuguki being portrayed as powerful which doesn't mean he needs to be above the other two to be portrayed as powerful.





> Look at that contradiction



No contradiction there since B barely used it outside of his fight against Edo Itachi.



> @ bold, exactly. Stop being a jerk, and i'll give your posts more attention, but you haven't earned that yet.



No, if I'm given crap then that's what you get.





> Sorry that you can't beat me in a Kisame vs X debate
> 
> You're an insufferable brat when it comes to anything Tsunade/Katsuyu related.



Everybody has beaten you in a Kisame vs X debate lol. You just refuse to accept any loss and repeated the same defeat points, kinda like your loss on Kisame vs Pain recently 




> Maybe pay attention to them, you might actually learn something you didn't know. I educate the NBD, one person at a time.
> 
> 
> Before I became essentially a Kisame focused NBD debater, people viewed Kisame under Kakuzu, now most at least consider him only slightly below Itachi or on par with him (not where I view him, but its a step in the right direction) There are still those who cling to their Itachi negs him logic, but those are the close minded simpletons whom I have no time for.



Oh look another fanboy of a character who think he's changing every bodies mind over time  . Sorry to disappoint but you did nothing, I've been here for years and in general most people always viewed Kisame over Kakuzu, go search some Akatsuki ranking threads(god knows there been many of those) over the years from 2012 and up and you'll see so no you've done nothing lol, nice try though.




> If you're not going to open your mind @Bonly then why are you on these forums



My mind is open, I've change my opinion on multiple things throughout the years, it just so happens that terrible logic is not something that sways my mind.[/QUOTE]

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 12, 2017)

Bonly said:


> Fuguki wasn't Kisame's Sensei either, he worked under him like how the sound four work under Orochi or like how Kabuto worked under Orochi



And yet Kabuto consistently refers to Orochimaru as his sensei/master/lord/husband.



Bonly said:


> Onoki only stated such after he Shika questioned him about it, he didn't randomly say "Hey guys I learned Jinton from Mu" hence why you didn't see him say such when he used Jinton against Sasuke or Deidara or any other time.



Kisame was questioned on his shark form, and he didn't say he learned it from his Sensei or something. 

As for Fuguki being Kisame's sensei, it's clear from the time in his early teens Kisame was working directly under Fuguki and likely saw him battle often. Kisame was more self taught than anything, but if I was to guess who Kisame considers his sensei, it would be Fuguki. Just a shot in the dark really, because sadly there's no information on Kisame's early years (0-15 or so) (Kisame's age is never stated at that time, so I don't really know) Although Kisame hates Fuguki, so maybe he wouldn't consider him his sensei 

Regardless, Kisame likely picked up on his skill in Kenjutsu from Fuguki



Bonly said:


> What does it matter if other Swordsmen lived? See this is what I'm talking about when I say you don't pay attention. My point is that due to that battle and him living, that means he had Samehada for years. That means he had years to try and master it. That means he had years upon which he could have learned how to fuse with Samehada. That means there's a possibility that he could do it which is a response to you saying "it's possible one can unlock the ability to merge with Samehada, but the blade is not something u can pick up and do whatever the fuck with.". So what exactly do the other swordsmen surviving have to do with my point?




Fuguki didn't live long after the Dai incident (a couple of years). Kisame had 20 odd years of working with Samehada, there's a huuuuuuuuuge difference in their mastery of the blade. 

It's possible Fuguki could learn it, but it's hard to say, due to the fact that it's never even hinted that he could. Kisame's appearance also suggests that it could be unique to him, as the dude is already some sort of Shark/Human hybrid (dude has legit gills)

Regardless, it's a possibility one could learn the merge, and I emphasize possibility. It would likely take years and years. Really, there's no way we can concretely prove our respective points, as what we're discussing is nothing but pointless back and forth. 



Bonly said:


> At this point I'm just wasting my time. First you say he wasn't portrayed as powerful then you say the bold above and then you go back and say the red. Not only have you failed to read the manga which shows Fuguki being powerful to be part of the most powerful generation of swordsmen along with him being brought back without his sword which is half his power but you also keep flip flopping.



Fuguki is powerful in the same way the other weaker SOTM's are powerful, all high jounin. That's why I said powerful, but not powerful (the weaker SOTM's are strong, but not low kage strong) I apologize for the poor choice of wording.



Bonly said:


> I'm talking about Fuguki being portrayed as powerful which doesn't mean he needs to be above the other two to be portrayed as powerful.




How do you define powerful? Because when I think powerful, I think high jounin, and then I start rating them in tiers.



Bonly said:


> Everybody has beaten you in a Kisame vs X debate lol. You just refuse to accept any loss and repeated the same defeat points, kinda like your loss on Kisame vs Pain recently



Judges who were getting their jollies out of trolling me, i'd hardly call that a loss.

The reason I don't accept losses is because they never happen in Kisame vs X threads (that are reasonably balanced) I can make a solid argument for just about any reasonably balanced battle. I think what angers most debaters on here is I use the manga to solidify my claims 

But feel free to challenge me to a debate, i'd enjoy mopping the floor with you

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Ryuzaki (Feb 12, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Still using the garbage off panel Kinkaku and Ginkaku example, to downplay Tobirama and to use as a basis, despite feats he performed that outshine said nonsense? Looks like some didn't learn their lesson.


I don't think he belongs in the discussion of Konoha's Kage Trinity (i.e. Naruto - Hashirama - Minato), he's the next one after but he definitely isn't outshining any of those 3. There is a legitimate gap and sadly it's more because of his lack of defensive or healing abilities.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## NightingaleOfShadows (Feb 12, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> I don't think he belongs in the discussion of Konoha's Kage Trinity (i.e. Naruto - Hashirama - Minato), he's the next one after but he definitely isn't outshining any of those 3. There is a legitimate gap and sadly it's more because of his lack of defensive or healing abilities.



It's debatable if Minato is actually superior to Tobirama and even if he was...in no world is it a big gap and IMO I think Tobirama is the superior. And "lack of defense or healing abilities" ...where did you get that?

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## Serene Grace (Feb 12, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> I don't think he belongs in the discussion of Konoha's Kage Trinity (i.e. Naruto - Hashirama - Minato), he's the next one after but he definitely isn't outshining any of those 3. There is a legitimate gap and sadly it's more because of his lack of defensive or healing abilities.


?I wasn't referring to any of that in my post, though. As for Minato being superior to Tobirama, that's actually debatable, and even if he was it would be extremely close.

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## Ryuzaki (Feb 12, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> It's debatable if Minato is actually superior to Tobirama and even if he was...in no world is it a big gap and IMO I think Tobirama is the superior. And "lack of defense or healing abilities" ...where did you get that?


Minato has Kurama and Senjutsu, he's essentially BSM Naruto level w/Hiraishin. If we are discussing living Minato that's a different story, as I can see them being comparable but Minato should still be considered greater than Tobirama with his variants. Tobirama lacks defensive jutsu whereas Minato was able to use a S/T portal to defend against Kurama's Bijuu Dama. 


The Death & The Strawberry said:


> ?I wasn't referring to any of that in my post, though. As for Minato being superior to Tobirama, that's actually debatable, and even if he was it would be extremely close.


As long as you are discussing living Minato, I do agree you can make an argument, but the moment you include Kurama and Senjutsu, I do think that it goes out the window.


----------



## NightingaleOfShadows (Feb 12, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Minato has Kurama and Senjutsu, he's essentially BSM Naruto level w/Hiraishin. If we are discussing living Minato that's a different story, as I can see them being comparable but Minato should still be considered greater than Tobirama with his variants. Tobirama lacks defensive jutsu whereas Minato was able to use a S/T portal to defend against Kurama's Bijuu Dama.
> 
> As long as you are discussing living Minato, I do agree you can make an argument, but the moment you include Kurama and Senjutsu, I do think that it goes out the window.



O ok I was talking about living Tobirama not edo

Reactions: Informative 1 | Friendly 1


----------



## Serene Grace (Feb 12, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> As long as you are discussing living Minato, I do agree you can make an argument, but the moment you include Kurama and Senjutsu, I do think that it goes out the window.


Well Minato with kurama is edo Minato, so that doesn't really count. As for senjutsu, I don't see that as much of a difference maker when even Mianto himself stated that his SM was impractical , and that he wasn't that good at it.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 12, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Still using the garbage off panel Kinkaku and Ginkaku example, to downplay Tobirama and to use as a basis, despite feats he performed that outshine said nonsense? Looks like someone didn't learn their lesson.



No offense, but this quite possibly one the stupidest shit I have read in any argument.

> oh look, he is using canon shit
> oh my god he is  downplaying mah baby...  
> oh dare u use shit that actually happened? 
> mah baby is so good, ya all are so evil.

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Serene Grace (Feb 12, 2017)

Hussain said:


> No offense, but this quite possibly one the stupidest shit I have read in any argument.
> 
> > oh look, he is using canon shit
> > oh my god he is downplaying mah baby...
> > oh dare u use shit that actually happened?


- so we just ignore that it was an ambush
- so we forget that there power was stated to be lackluster, indicating that if it was an actual 1 on 1 occurrence, Tobirama would have likely raped them.
- so we forget he was able to defeat an MS user who was on par with MS Madara
- so we forget his performance in the war arc
- so we forget he was stated to be one of the strongest kages to ever live
and last but not least, we forget it was *off panel, *meaning we don't entirely know what actually happen. By that same logic, Hashirama is weak because he died to a bunch of random fodders in the war, and because Kakuzu was able to survive a fight with him, though if you actually hold weight for those examples I don't see why continuing this with you is even worth it
sure lets forget all forget this, because "lol I hate him", lmfao.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ishmael (Feb 12, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> - so we just ignore that it was an ambush
> - so we forget that there power was stated to be lackluster, indicating that if it was an actual 1 on 1 occurrence, Tobirama would have likely raped them.
> - so we forget he was able to defeat an MS user who was on par with MS Madara
> - so we forget his performance in the war arc
> ...



They forget anything significant to the character they don't like to downplay them

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## NightingaleOfShadows (Feb 12, 2017)

@Hussain your so butt hurt like your giving everyone who is supporting Tobirama disagrees and dislikes for no reason like seriously I said "O ok I was talking about living Tobirama not edo" and you gave me a dislike... the fuck

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Trojan (Feb 12, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> - so we just ignore that it was an ambush
> - so we forget that there power was stated to be lackluster, indicating that if it was an actual 1 on 1 occurrence, Tobirama would have likely raped them.



This color is awful (the purple one). I can hardly read it. :/

1- There were 2 battles between them and Kinkaku unite.
The first one, it was against Tobirama and the Raikage. Tobirama did NOT die in this one. However, the SECOND battle, it is when we have to see Tobiama with his students. Tobirama knew that they were coming, and all of them knew that they don't stand a chance. it was NOT an ambush.

2- Where was is stated that the power is lackluster?

depicts
The girl is actually saying that THEY (Tobirama's team) were planning to ambush Kin unite here
The guy near the girl: "......that's too much of a...."
the uchiha guy: "It won't work...etc"


What we get from this one page is, Tobirama's team is the one that was going for the ambush. However, it's useless without one sacrificing himself/herself. Otherwise, it's too much for them.

Can you tell us where does anything of this imply that Tobirama will lolrape them?

depicts
The Akimichi guy saying, basically, no matter who this guy is, he will die for sure.


> - so we forget he was able to defeat an MS user who was on par with MS Madara



from where did you get the shit that Izuna was on par with Asspulldara?
Even Izuna does not believe this shit, and he hardly believe that there was someone who is actually stronger than his bro (Hashi)

The "they are equal" nonsense was a mistranslation. 


not to mention, defeating Izuna does not change the fact that he was defeated anyway. lol 



> - so we forget his performance in the war arc


No. But we shouldn't forget that the Edo Hokage was also a bit weaker than their real selves.

2- We shouldn't forget that the only reason Tobirama survived more than a second is simply because he is an ET.
Tell me how he was going to survive getting his body trashed in half had he been alive. 

Or do you think he had the regeneration ability against Kin and Gin?  



> - so we forget he was stated to be one of the strongest kages to ever live


where? 


> and last but not least, we forget it was *off panel, *meaning we don't entirely know what actually happen. By that same logic, Hashirama is weak because he died to a bunch of random fodders in the war, and because Kakuzu was able to survive a fight with him, though if you actually hold weight for those examples I don't see why continuing this with you is even worth it
> sure lets forget all forget this, because "lol I hate him", lmfao.



This has got to be, yet another one, if your retarded ass logic. 

1- off-panel feat does not change a thing. In fact, you are being a hypocrite. Tobirama Vs Izuna is off-panel battle, why do you use it then?
because "lol I love him"?? 

2- It's true that it's off-panel, but there is no indication that something was in their favour. Tobirama and his team implied that they will die either way. Gin said they "fucking wiped the floor with him". There was nothing says it was unfair and whatnot.

Had there been a reason, we would have been told, like when Pain gave a reason to why Hanzo lost to him.

By this retarded logic, we should dismiss Hago's feat with the Juubi, because we don't know, maybe the Juubi's feat was hurting him, maybe he had a stomachache.

We shouldn't take Mu & Gengetsu battle in consideration as well. I mean for all we know, maybe one of them cheated. Maybe there was an evil cat that scared the Mizukage and he died because of it.


We shouldn't take Tobirama's defeating Izuna as well. Maybe poor Izuna was not looking, maybe hisSharingann was not on because he ate something bad...etc etc.

This is rubbish. 
Take them as they were presented to you (the information).




3- In Tobirama's case, we know who killed him, we know their power, and we know their number. In Hashi's case, we don't know who killed him, we don't know their number, and we don't have any statement indicating anything. So, your comparison is irrelevant.

Because the number/strenght will change everything. For example, you don't go around seeing someone criticizing the 3rd Raikage for losing for 10000 shinobi after 3 days, do you?


----------



## Trojan (Feb 12, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> @Hussain your so butt hurt like your giving everyone who is supporting Tobirama disagrees and dislikes for no reason like seriously I said "O ok I was talking about living Tobirama not edo" and you gave me a dislike... the fuck



That was a retaliation, I guess. 


(the one with red, would have been better, but I forgot where I put it. )

But ok, I will undo the dislike if it bothers you so much.


----------



## Serene Grace (Feb 12, 2017)

@Hussain  don't worry ill reply to you in a minute, doing a few things. Don't be thinking that I conceded and all Kappa

Reactions: Friendly 1


----------



## Trojan (Feb 12, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> @Hussain  don't worry ill reply to you in a minute, doing a few things. Don't be thinking that I conceded and all Kappa



Take your time. 


one point I was going to add, about this Tobirama stuff.

1- I do, obviously, take what the manga told us about the Kin/Gin >>> Tobirama. I don't try to pull out excuses for him out of my ass just because he lost.

2- Likewise, I do take his wins as they are presented to us. I have never tried to pull out excuses to how Izuna lost to Tobirama, and that should have had happened. I just take it as Tobirama > Izuna.

Hence, when people create Tobirama Vs itachi thread for example. I post that gif of Tobirama slashing Izuna, and Minato trashing Obito, to prove that FTG users > MS users. 


It's hypocritical to question Tobirama's defeat (which we have a bit more insight too), but take his wins without questioning. I simply don't use double standards with him whether he lost or win.


----------



## Blaze Release (Feb 12, 2017)

I find it funny when people claim Tobirama losing to the kin/jin bro's with raikage the first time and the second time by the gin/gin squad where he was killed to be a recton. This was uttered by the bro's, Tsunade and if i remember correctly AAAA. How is it a recton as he was killed or are we now going to make an excuse for his death. Do people not understand what recton means, no new evidence has been discovered to put this into doubt. Or perhaps alot of these guys, think their their precious ftg and its users cannot be touched by supposedly slower opponents. People need to get out of this battledome mentality.

As for the battle i think only Naruto and Hashirama can defeat the swordsmen by themselves.


----------



## Serene Grace (Feb 12, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Take your time.
> 
> 
> one point I was going to add, about this Tobirama stuff.
> ...


Looks like my true intentions were overlooked I wasn't trying to raise any double standards, but I was just trying to dismiss the notion of Tobirama being weak because of the kin and gin incident. I was wrong to say that kin and gin were weak, I'll admit that they were in fact extremely powerful. Though we have to take in that Tobirama was by himself fighting the kin and gin bros(who possess sage of six paths powers, and kybui chakra as well) and 18 of the other fodders, so I don't see how that makes him not powerful. 

The notion of Tobirama being weak is incorrect as canon explicitly disagrees with this
Tobirama receiving praise from Madara
Tobirama being stated to be one of the strongest shinobi ever.
Madara stated theirs a reason why Tobirama and Hashirama can't be brought back at their full power
I don't think need to post the gif, where his power alone almost made taka shit their pants, I think you get the jist.
As for his performance in the war arc as well, which kind of explicitly made it clear, that he's an immensely powerful shinobi, a far stronger shinobi that you give him credit for

end point: Kishi is trying his best to make it clear, that tobirama is on another level, him losing to kin and gin is more of a testament to them, then a downplay for him when the mangaka is trying his utmost best to show Tobirama is a beast

I'm sorry, but I have to defy you oh great hussain.
Like I said before, it's like taking the Hashirama example seriously when we know he's done far better things is far stronger than that example tries to portray


----------



## Daenerys Stormborn (Feb 12, 2017)

I agree that Kirigakure wouldn't be a big issue for Tobirama, since he's a sensor. 

One thing that needs to be remembered about the 7 Swordsmen, however, is that they fought Eight Gates Maito Dai and some of them survived. At the very least, this indicates that they wouldn't be roflstomped by Hiraishin.

I've seen a lot of discussion in this thread about the individual abilities of the Swordsmen--Mangetsu's water body, Samehada, Kirigakure, etc, but not much mention of how the 7 Swordsmen could synergize with each other. As we all know, Kisame can vomit up massive quantities of water, and that water could be used by the other swordsmen to fuel their own jutsu without expending a ton of their own chakra. For example, remember how Suigetsu gathered a bunch of water around himself and in that form, withstood a TBB? Mangetsu could do that using Kisame's lake spit or leftover water from Senjikizame. 

And the thing about Hiraishin is that it only helps if you have some marks in safe territory that you can teleport to. Kisame's lake, and to an even greater extent his waterdome, cover a huge amount of area. And all of that water can be weaponized by Kisame, Zabuza, etc. Tobirama could easily find himself in a situation where all of his marks are underwater--that is, surrounded by terrain that his enemies can control at will. (Yes, he has suiton element as well, but he's still going to have to deal with a massive clusterfuck of attacks coming from everywhere while fighting seven guys who managed to not be completely wiped out by Eight Gates.)

So overall, I think Tobirama's at a disadvantage here. The 7 Swordsmen won't win without casualties, but they will probably win.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## t0xeus (Feb 12, 2017)

Number advantage is too big considering both Kisame and Mangetsu are close to Tobirama in hype.

I agree with both Troyse22 and Hussain posts, although I think they went a little bit overboard with some of their points.

For an example I think it's far-fetched to think that Mangetsu will give Tobirama so much trouble in putting him down considering it's super easy to counter Hydrification technique via Raiton and someone like Tobirama will realize that pretty soon.
Also I don't think he'll be put down via any normal finisher like Suiton spammage or Silent Killing.

How I see Tobirama losing is simply getting outlasted. 7 at the very least jonin levels, with 2 of them probably kage levels constantly attacking Tobirama who will have no sight considering Kirigakure no Jutsu will be on, also all the swords' unique abilities that Tobirama has no idea about will eventually kill him.

One mistake and he's dead basically. Will he try to block the hammer sword and realize that it's unblockable after it's too late? Dunno. Will he fall prey to Hozuki's Suiton Gun technique and fail to react since it will be from blindspot? No idea, but one thing is for sure and that is that he's not beating a group that gave troubles to 8th Gated Dai, who was hyped to be stronger than Gokage while in 8th Gate.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 12, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Looks like my true intentions were overlooked I wasn't trying to raise any double standards, but I was just trying to dismiss the notion of Tobirama being weak because of the kin and gin incident. I was wrong to say that kin and gin were weak, I'll admit that they were in fact extremely powerful. Though we have to take in that Tobirama was by himself fighting the kin and gin bros(who possess sage of six paths powers, and kybui chakra as well) and 18 of the other fodders, so I don't see how that makes him not powerful.
> 
> The notion of Tobirama being weak is incorrect as canon explicitly disagrees with this
> Tobirama receiving praise from Madara
> ...




1- I never said he is weak in the first place. 
you people think if I said X > Tobirama, then that must mean he is weak. lol
by this logic, all the characters are weak because Kaguya is stronger than them!

2- Getting praised from Asspulldara does not mean he is the strongest among the Kage. lol
the Gokage also got praised from him. Hago praised Kakashi, Sakura, Minato, and Kushina. Does not mean they are the strongest.



> As for his performance in the war arc as well, which kind of explicitly made it clear, that he's an immensely powerful shinobi, a far stronger shinobi that you give him credit for


Again, I don't see him as weak.

Generally speaking, when people put a lot of characters together, I go for the group winning. People lose their shit for whatever reason. If you were here back in the days, people were also putting shit like

KCM Naruto Vs the Gokage
Hashirama Vs the Shinobi world and all the Kages in history
B Vs the Gokage
itachi Vs the Gokage
BM Naruto Vs SA

and garbage of that sort. I have always disagreed with them, and they got insane and they told me how much of a hater I am (Even tho Naruto is my favorite character. Funny enough, chapters pass, they are proven they are wrong, and then they act as if they knew it all along. 

likewise, I don't see Tobirama defeating 7 characters, and they are not even fodders. They are the best that the mist has to offer. Disregarding their power because of feats is nonsense. Might as well go and claim Tobirama > Hagorumo, Hamura, Asura and Indra
because they have no feats! I don't roll like that. If the characters are severely lacking in term of panel time and feat, the only thing that makes sense is to rely on their portrayal and hype. How else are we going to judge them? You can argue the idea of this thread is bad from the start because of the severe lack of panel time they had.


Funny enough, I was one of who supported Tobirama based on his hype/portryal when he did not have any feats. People were claiming how much of a fodder he is, and how he did not deserve to be the Hokage, and it should have been one of the Uchiha. This logic simply does not work, just because you are ignorant in some of the matters, does not prove anything about them.



> end point: Kishi is trying his best to make it clear, that tobirama is on another level, him losing to kin and gin is more of a testament to them, then a downplay for him when the mangaka is trying his utmost best to show Tobirama is a beast



On a different level compared to who? You must understand the different between when a character fight by themselves, and when
a character fights along side other characters. Examples,

A: Sakura was EXTREMELY useful against Kaguya.
B: The Mizukage and tsuchikage were fighting Kinshiki who was smashing Adult Sasuke around.
C: Bolt put some great show against Momoshiki in the movie/manga.

Those are TEAM EFFORT. That does not necessarily mean they will do the same job (as good) if they were alone. Yes, Tobirama is powerful and helped decently in the battle. However, a lot of people also fail to take his action in context and ignore how useful his ET was to him, which would have affected his performance had it not been there for him.

You can argue, it's just like how Edo helps itachi a lot, which made people put Edo itachi almost in a different tier than alive itachi.



> I'm sorry, but I have to defy you oh great hussain.


it's ok.


----------



## Ishmael (Feb 12, 2017)

Mangetsu close to tobirama in hype?

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 12, 2017)

Daenerys Stormborn said:


> I agree that Kirigakure wouldn't be a big issue for Tobirama, since he's a sensor.
> 
> One thing that needs to be remembered about the 7 Swordsmen, however, is that they fought Eight Gates Maito Dai and some of them survived. At the very least, this indicates that they wouldn't be roflstomped by Hiraishin.
> 
> ...




It's possible the fodder SOTM's die, but even then it's a stretch.

Good point on Kisame acting as a battery pack for the other SOTM's jutsu. 

But to think Kisame, Mangetsu or Chojuro are going down is absurd. 


And really, not much more needs to be said about this fight other than 

Maito Dai>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Tobirama.



t0xeus said:


> Number advantage is too big considering both Kisame and Mangetsu are close to Tobirama in hype.



I wouldn't say Mangetsu is close to Tobirama in hype, but he's certainly at minimum low kage, above the weaker SOTM's, but not above Old Hiruzen

Kisame's hype exceeds Tobi imo.

@The Death & The Strawberry Tobirama's hype is irrelevant if he doesn't live up to it.

He died to 2 low kage level shinobi and a bunch of fodder. Accept it.




The SOTM's as a unit are superior to Tobirama, as Maito Dai is probably just a little weaker than JJ Obito (Maito Dai in 8th gate probably borders right on god tier, below his son, but close to him imo). The fact that some of them lived shouldn't be disregarded.

Based on this, the Swordsman shit diff.


----------



## t0xeus (Feb 12, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I wouldn't say Mangetsu is close to Tobirama in hype, but he's certainly at minimum low kage, above the weaker SOTM's, but not above Old Hiruzen
> 
> Kisame's hype exceeds Tobi imo.


I meant both Kisame's and Mangetsu's hype together are close to Tobirama's. Individually I have them far below Tobirama in portrayal, with Kisame being above Mangetsu a little bit.


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 12, 2017)

t0xeus said:


> I meant both Kisame's and Mangetsu's hype together are close to Tobirama's. Individually I have them far below Tobirama in portrayal, with Kisame being above Mangetsu *a little bit*.



Gross.


----------



## Ishmael (Feb 12, 2017)

...lol wtf is chojuro going to do to tobirama???


----------



## t0xeus (Feb 12, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Gross.


Why?  I feel like they were both portrayed like prodigies within the swordsmen, but there was never any indication of who was superior to each other.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 12, 2017)

@Troyse22

 You could really take lessons from this guy, his posts have been far more convincing than yours':



Daenerys Stormborn said:


> I agree that Kirigakure wouldn't be a big issue for Tobirama, since he's a sensor.
> 
> One thing that needs to be remembered about the 7 Swordsmen, however, is that they fought Eight Gates Maito Dai and some of them survived. At the very least, this indicates that they wouldn't be roflstomped by Hiraishin.
> 
> ...


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 12, 2017)

t0xeus said:


> Why?  I feel like they were both portrayed like prodigies within the swordsmen, *but there was never any indication of who was superior to each other*.



I hope you're just joking around.


----------



## t0xeus (Feb 12, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I hope you're just joking around.


Not really. Can you post the indications?

And I don't mean just hype statements about Kisame, but direct comparison between those two.

It's obvious Kisame will have more scans talking about his portrayal&hype, since he's more important to the story than Mangetsu.


----------



## Ishmael (Feb 12, 2017)

Mangestsu hype is real, seen as the second coming of the demon and he was able to master use with all seven swords. He also wielded samehada a blade we know likes users with a very strong and powerful chakra. He was the last of the swordsmen to be taken down during the war also and worked efficiently and very effective in the mist created by zabuza. He was apart of a strong clan that had unique abilities and was one of his villages strongest shinobi.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 12, 2017)

t0xeus said:


> Not really. Can you post the indications?
> 
> And I don't mean just hype statements about Kisame, but direct comparison between those two.
> 
> It's obvious Kisame will have more scans talking about his portrayal&hype, since he's more important to the story than Mangetsu.



So you say portrayal and hype puts Kisame and mangetsu on par with each other, then you don't want me to get proof that that's not true?

Wtf?


----------



## t0xeus (Feb 12, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> So you say portrayal and hype puts Kisame and mangetsu on par with each other, then you don't want me to get proof that that's not true?
> 
> Wtf?


I've never said that they are on par with each other portrayal-wise, only thing I am saying is that it's super shady and they were never compared in manga, nor are they any hints that Kisame is >>> Mangetsu or otherwise.

Well it depends on what proof did you want to post? Post it anyways, I just wanted to avoid scans about Kisame being biju power level etc, since it has no value when comparing Mangetsu who had 1% of Kisame's time in manga.


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 12, 2017)

t0xeus said:


> I've never said that they are on par with each other portrayal-wise, only thing I am saying is that it's super shady and they were never compared in manga, nor are they any hints that Kisame is >>> Mangetsu or otherwise.
> 
> Well it depends on what proof did you want to post? Post it anyways, I just wanted to avoid scans about Kisame being biju power level etc, since it has no value when comparing Mangetsu who had 1% of Kisame's time in manga.



So you just want to disregard all evidence that Kisame is above Mangetsu, but still want me to prove that Kisame is above Mangetsu?

Gross.


----------



## Veracity (Feb 12, 2017)

Ablaze said:


> I find it funny when people claim Tobirama losing to the kin/jin bro's with raikage the first time and the second time by the gin/gin squad where he was killed to be a recton. This was uttered by the bro's, Tsunade and if i remember correctly AAAA. How is it a recton as he was killed or are we now going to make an excuse for his death. Do people not understand what recton means, no new evidence has been discovered to put this into doubt. Or perhaps alot of these guys, think their their precious ftg and its users cannot be touched by supposedly slower opponents. People need to get out of this battledome mentality.
> 
> As for the battle i think only Naruto and Hashirama can defeat the swordsmen by themselves.



The death was not retconned. Him having FTG was. Essentially, when Tobirama died against Kin and Gin( and when he fought them the first time)Kishi didn't really think about him having FTG. You really just have to look at the situation to notice. Homie invented FTG, which allows him to teleport to any chakra mark, was cornered by the Kin squad, and had to be decoy? That doesn't make sense. But it coincides with the fact that Kishi didn't really have Tobirama as a strong Kage for a long time. He was suppose to be the strength he was in Part 1 as an Edo and didn't have FTG until Minato said he did against Obito while Minato has it since the start.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Feb 12, 2017)

The swordsmen would likely win, but i wouldnt count tobirama out

If the swordsmen *do win*, they are taking some serious losses, as tobi is far above any of them individually

No one here can react to his FTG blitzes either...dont know how the fuck that point is even being entertained fam

"Ohh but some of them fought Dai in 8th gate" 

...And?

FTG>>>>8th gate in speed cuz FTG is literally instant...

Not too mention that fight was off panel, so we have literally no idea how strong Dai was or what the hell he used on em

Dai could have literally stood there and looked scary and some of em coulda died of heart attacks, he could have not been able to maintain the gate as long as gai did and only managed one attack per swordsmen if that, he could have been unable to use sekizo or yagai, theres literally nothing we know about the guy and we have no idea how the fight went down.

The swordsmen could have done nothing but run like bitches for all we know, and the ones that "survived" may have only done so because the monster that was Dai was too busy eating the corpses of their fallen brethren to be bothered to kill the ones who fled, and the gate strain could have been the only reason he died

We cannot just scale Dai to Gais level either...Dai was clearly dirt tier outside of his gates due to being the "eternal genin"

Have we all forgotten that Gai was a Jonin despite having the same handicap that dai had with the taijutsu only shtick?

Basically, just cuz a few of them (kinda) dealt with the 8th gate, doesnt mean they can deal with FTG, as FTG is faster to begin with anyway and we have no idea how dai compares to anyone else in the manga


FTG blitzing is a very real danger to every swordsman present, Tobi can also make KBs and gave them FTG blitz as he did against juubito, meaning simultaneous blitzing can happen here, no one here is reacting to FTG

Either way Tobi is at a disadvantage here, the numbers and quality of opponent here hurt him big time, and its due to those reasons im hesitant to give him the win


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 12, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> FTG>>>>8th gate in speed cuz FTG is literally instant...
> 
> Not too mention that fight was off panel, so we have literally no idea how strong Dai was or what the hell he used on em



Stopped reading right around here.

FTG is only faster if they have seals/marks placed, Tobirama would actually have to place Kunai around the battlefield. Not only that, but FTG isn't even that much faster than 8th gate speed, as the Raikage's speed was noted to rival Minato's Hiraishin. The gap between 8th gate speed and Hiraishin is literally almost non existent. 

It doesn't matter if the fight was off panel, that's the worst shit argument ever.

The idiots here who keep spewing that nonsense are same idiots who say "Kisame had a hard time with Roshi", "Tobirama beat Izuna, Pein beat Hanzo no diff" etc etc. You're a bunch of hypocrites.

Seriously, the Tobirama wank here is beyond ridiculous. 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Dai could have literally stood there and looked scary and some of em coulda died of heart attacks, he could have not been able to maintain the gate as long as gai did and only managed one attack per swordsmen if that, he could have been unable to use sekizo or yagai, theres literally nothing we know about the guy and we have no idea how the fight went down.



If you're serious @WorldsStrongest then this is your most laughable post to date. Seriously, most of the time you post quality stuff, but that's just ridiculous.


----------



## Clowe (Feb 12, 2017)

Whether you like it or not, the fact that Tobirama was defeated by Kin&Gin is a canon fact, it is written in the konoha history books and someone like Shikamaru has knowledge of it.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Feb 12, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Stopped reading right around here.


Clearly you didnt cuz you addressed more stuff than this...



Troyse22 said:


> Not only that, but FTG isn't even that much faster than 8th gate speed






Troyse22 said:


> The gap between 8th gate speed and Hiraishin is literally almost non existent.






Troyse22 said:


> , as the Raikage's speed was noted to rival Minato's Hiraishin





Let me break it down for you @Troyse22

There is a gap between the speed of light...nope...even that doesnt cut it...there is gap between the speed of light multiplied exponentially, and literally INSTANT SPEED

No one in naruto comes even remotely close to light speed...

And if there is a gap between light speed and FTG...theres sure as shit a gap between FTG and 8th gate users...and sure as shit a gap between FTG and poverty ass swordsmen



Troyse22 said:


> It doesn't matter if the fight was off panel, that's the worst shit argument ever.


Its a better argument than claiming FTG and raikages are close in speed...



Troyse22 said:


> The idiots here who keep spewing that nonsense are same idiots who say "Kisame had a hard time with Roshi", "Tobirama beat Izuna, Pein beat Hanzo no diff" etc etc. You're a bunch of hypocrites.


1. Kisame did have trouble with roshi...he stated that himself
2. Im not "one of the idiots" who are trying to say that an off panel fight was retconned or holds no water, the only thing i said, and the only thing i implied was we dont know how exactly the fight went down...and we dont...cuz thats what "off panel" means champ
3. Ive never even typed Izunas goddamn name, so ive never used that as a point
4. Ive never taken a crack at Hanzo Vs Pain, so ive never used that as a point

So check your shit before you throw around accusations Troy



Troyse22 said:


> If you're serious @WorldsStrongest then this is your most laughable post to date. Seriously, most of the time you post quality stuff, but that's just ridiculous.


Flavor text goes right over everyones head here and they all take it at face value and 110% fact dont they?

All that quote was meant to address, was the fact we dont know exactly how Dai Vs the Swordsmen went down...

Wanna tell me what exactly about that is "laughable" champ?

Cuz i mean...its true...it happened off panel after all

Everything else i typed was just me adding a splash of color to make it more interesting to read...

Figured that would have been super freaking obvious *when i proposed the cause of death being fear induced heart attacks for the majority of the swordsmen* but i guess i shoulda made that more clear


Guess you also missed the part of my post where i gave the swordsmen the W here and not Tobirama...


----------



## Android (Feb 12, 2017)

Did @Troyse22 seriously said that 8G Gai speed and A's speed are close to instant teleportation ??


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 12, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> There is a gap between the speed of light...nope...even that doesnt cut it...there is gap between the speed of light multiplied exponentially, and literally INSTANT SPEED
> 
> No one in naruto comes even remotely close to light speed...
> 
> And if there is a gap between light speed and FTG...theres sure as shit a gap between FTG and 8th gate users...and sure as shit a gap between FTG and poverty ass swordsmen



Gai essentially runs on air, and you're gonna tell me his speed is not comparable to FTG 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Its a better argument than claiming FTG and raikages are close in speed...



I said comparable, not close.

There's a difference.

Essentially, the Raikage's speed is in the same "tier" as Hiraishin.



WorldsStrongest said:


> 1. Kisame did have trouble with roshi...he stated that himself



And Kin and Gin stated that they negged Tobirama 

but that's not relevant because it's tobirama right?



I'm not saying Kisame didn't have a hard time with Roshi, i'm saying people are hypocrites for using that as an argument, but disregarding Tobirama's loss vs Kin and Gin, and it being a shit diff battle. It happened, whether you guys like it or not.

Kin and Gin>Tobirama, Kishi agrees, and your dumb wank opinion doesn't matter.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 12, 2017)

Clowe said:


> Whether you like it or not, the fact that Tobirama was defeated by Kin&Gin is a canon fact, it is written in the konoha history books and someone like Shikamaru has knowledge of it.


I don't know why people get so salty over it, tbh. 
They are acting as this event was brought here straight from a fanfiction website!


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Feb 12, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Gai essentially runs on air, and you're gonna tell me his speed is not comparable to FTG


I dont give a darn what he does Troy

The man needs to physically be in 2 places simultaneously without clones or any BS to be faster than FTG cuz FTG is INSTANT SPEED

FTG>FTL>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Anything the Naruto Manga has to offer in terms of physical speed

Case closed...



Troyse22 said:


> I said comparable, not close.
> 
> There's a difference.
> 
> Essentially, the Raikage's speed is in the same "tier" as Hiraishin.


lolno



Troyse22 said:


> And Kin and Gin stated that they negged Tobirama
> 
> but that's not relevant because it's tobirama right?


Ive never even implied i believe in that line of thinking, so this shows me you didnt read my post at all

Good to know



WorldsStrongest said:


> 2. Im not "one of the idiots" who are trying to say that an off panel fight was retconned or holds no water, the only thing i said, and the only thing i implied was we dont know how exactly the fight went down...and we dont...cuz thats what "off panel" means champ



Never said we cant use off panel events, just said we dont know exactly how off panel events go down...cuz we dont...


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Feb 12, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Did @Troyse22 seriously said that 8G Gai speed and A's speed are close to instant teleportation ??


Yes he did


----------



## Parallaxis (Feb 12, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> By that same logic, Hashirama is weak


Don't try to use this example.
Because he ACTUALLY uses those to downplay Hashirama. 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Yes he did


Lol
FTG is contingent upon the users reactions

Neither Minato or Tobirama can react to Night Moth levels of speed

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 12, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Did @Troyse22 seriously said that 8G Gai speed and A's speed are close to instant teleportation ??





Troyse22 said:


> I said comparable, not close.





Troyse22 said:


> idiot







WorldsStrongest said:


> The man needs to physically be in 2 places simultaneously without clones or any BS to be faster than FTG cuz FTG is INSTANT SPEED
> 
> FTG>FTL>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Anything the Naruto Manga has to offer in terms of physical speed
> 
> Case closed...



You're talking as if FTG is above 8th Gate Gai's speed by some immeasurable margin, it's not.

Minato barely had time to intercept Mads' Gudodama.

The gap is not that big.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Feb 12, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Lol
> FTG is contingent upon the users reactions
> 
> Neither Minato or Tobirama can react to Night Moth levels of speed


What does that matter?

FTGs speed once activated is still instant...

And while we are on the subject, Minato can react to Sekizos fastest step in time to use FTG...Its within the realm of possibility he can react to Yagai as well, though i admit its quite unlikely

And none of that matters anyway...cuz Minato and Tobirama can react to JJ levels of speed and use FTG, which is a level of speed *several tiers faster *than anything the goddamn swordsmen of the mist are gonna break out

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## t0xeus (Feb 12, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> So you just want to disregard all evidence that Kisame is above Mangetsu, but still want me to prove that Kisame is above Mangetsu?
> 
> Gross.


Okay, post the evidence then please.


----------



## Android (Feb 12, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


>





GuidingThunder said:


> *instant *teleportation





Troyse22 said:


> Gai essentially runs on air, and you're gonna tell me his speed is not comparable to FTG





Troyse22 said:


> Essentially, the Raikage's speed is in the same "tier" as Hiraishin.





Troyse22 said:


> dumb


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Feb 12, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> You're talking as if FTG is above 8th Gate Gai's speed by some immeasurable margin, it's not.


Yes it is

FTG is INSTANT SPEED

Gai isnt

Theres a substantial gap between instant and FTL...

The gap between Gais physical speed and FTG is immeasurable



Troyse22 said:


> Minato barely had time to intercept Mads' Gudodama.


Minatos reaction speed=/=FTGs movement speed

So this is a flawed argument

Add to that the swordsmen cant even touch mads level of striking speed

So not only is this a flawed point but its also irrelevant 


Troyse22 said:


> The gap is not that big.


The gap between Gais physical speed and instantaneous movement is fucking astronomical...

How is this even a question?


----------



## Parallaxis (Feb 12, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> What does that matter?
> 
> FTGs speed once activated is still instant


Theoretically yes, I agree
But it's not applicable since in an actual battle situation the user needs to react



WorldsStrongest said:


> And while we are on the subject, Minato can react to Sekizos fastest step in time to use FTG...Its within the realm of possibility he can react to Yagai as well, though i admit its quite unlikely


He reacted to the tsb
All he did was time when the kunai would be in the trajectory of the tsb and teleport there

Even if he did
Yagai >>>>> Sekizo as you yourself said

But this is offtopic



WorldsStrongest said:


> And none of that matters anyway...cuz Minato and Tobirama can react to JJ levels of speed and use FTG, which is a level of speed *several tiers faster *than anything the goddamn swordsmen of the mist are gonna break out


Agree


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 12, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Yes it is
> 
> FTG is INSTANT SPEED
> 
> ...



Gai's speed is nearly instantaneous, that's why I say the gap in speed is not big at all.


----------



## Serene Grace (Feb 12, 2017)

Hussain said:


> 1- I never said he is weak in the first place.
> you people think if I said X > Tobirama, then that must mean he is weak. lol
> by this logic, all the characters are weak because Kaguya is stronger than them!


I was under the assumption you were when you were using examples such as him arriving at the same time as the other kages, and the gin and kin example which was very likely a retcon, like ffs dude had FTG and was "cornered"anyone can tell that makes absolutely no sense, especially when he's shown he can teleport multiple people at *once*.

you also asked for where it was stated that he was said to be one of the strongest shinobis to ever live along with Hashi, and I showed you that example, as well as the one where Juudara stated there was a reason neither Hashi or Tobirama were brought to their original strength.



Hussain said:


> On a different level compared to who? You must understand the different between when a character fight by themselves, and when


Oh um compared to birds..who else fham? Other shinobi of course, other kages of course.



Hussain said:


> You must understand the different between when a character fight by themselves, and when
> a character fights along side other characters. Examples,
> 
> A: Sakura was EXTREMELY useful against Kaguya.
> ...


It being a team effort doesn't dismiss the fact that Tobirama was still portrayed to be strong, which makes the gin and kin example kind of stupid if we look deeper into the details.

He still accomplished feats by himself in that arc as well, you act as if everything that he did was a team effort which isn't the case. Had he tagged the gin and kin brothers, like he did against juubito they would be dead, had he used an FTG blitz against the gin and kin brothers like he did against Madara they'd be dead, had he used Gojō Kibaku Fuda they'd be dead instantly...now you tell me if it's a retcon or not -_-


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Feb 12, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Theoretically yes, I agree
> But it's not applicable since in an actual battle situation the user needs to react


Which said user can easily do here...

Hes up against opponents who are literally famous for using clumsy, slow, cumbersome weapons (for the most part)

And he has reacted to far faster opponents to begin with



PhantomSage said:


> He reacted to the tsb
> All he did was time when the kunai would be in the trajectory of the tsb and teleport there


He also needed to wait until the TSBs had made physical contact with him, meaning he had to judge their speed and gais speed and wait until the last possible second to leave

If he left too early he wouldnt have taken all the TSBs with him and gai woulda died

If he left too late than the TSBs would have disintegrated him and continued on to gai without a care in the world



PhantomSage said:


> Agree


Cool


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Feb 12, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Gai's speed is nearly instantaneous, that's why I say the gap in speed is not big at all.


Kay...

Im done here...

Freaking done

Naruto, as in the collective verse, including kaguya, naruto, sasuke, madara, kinshiki and all the rest, doesnt even come close to fucking light speed, hell they dont even break relativistic level (thats a fraction of light speed by the way, like a percentage)

Instant>FTL>>>Light Speed>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Relativistic>Naruto Verse

Yet ur gonna sit there and say "Instant>=Gai" ???

Yeah no


----------



## Serene Grace (Feb 12, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> *Tobirama's hype is irrelevant if he doesn't live up to it.*
> 
> He died to 2 low kage level shinobi and a bunch of fodder. Accept it


Wrong. His war arc performance clearly indicates the opposite lmao. In the gin and kin example he was said to be cornered...what? He possesses one of the greatest S/T jutsu's in existence, does it really make much sense to you that he'd be cornered, answer that question and tell yourself if this example is a retcon or not? 

and lmao @ the raikages speed being comparable to the speed of FTG, FTG isn't fast its instant, something that's instant doesn't have a travel distance hence nothing can be faster than it, wouldn't matter if the raikage was faster than the speed of light, his speed/movement still wouldn't be comparable to FTG, come one bro.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Android (Feb 12, 2017)

Let's give @Troyse22 a lesson about speed  
For FTG , distance is irrelevant , be it 10000 mile or 100000000000 mile , the teleportation will happen instantly , rendering the distance completely irrelevant 
8G Gai and/or A might look instant as well when crossing small distances , but when it comes to long distance , the real difference will appear 
The sun light (already moving at light speed which >>>>>>>>>>> anything in the manga in terms of speed) takes about 8 minutes and 20 seconds to reach earth , FTG can cover that distance instantly , that's the definition of instant speed


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 12, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Let's give @Troyse22 a lesson about speed
> For FTG , distance is irrelevant , be it 10000 mile or 100000000000 mile , the teleportation will happen instantly , rendering the distance completely irrelevant
> 8G Gai and/or A might look instant as well when crossing small distances , but when it comes to long distance , the real difference will appear
> The sun light (already moving at light speed which >>>>>>>>>>> anything in the manga in terms of speed) takes about 8 minutes and 20 seconds to reach earth , FTG can cover that distance instantly , that's the definition of instant speed



I agree with FTG being faster at long distances, as the longer the distance, the more obvious the small gap in their speed becomes.

But for short-medium distances, the gap is nearly non existent.


----------



## Android (Feb 12, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I agree with FTG being faster at long distances, as the longer the distance, the more obvious the small gap in their speed becomes.
> 
> But for short-medium distances, the gap is nearly non existent.


Yeah , i'm done here 
Also , what's with the sig ? teasing Izaya ?

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Ishmael (Feb 12, 2017)

Think of it like this during the 8th gates gai vs madara fight gai had to travel by foot. Because of the distance between him and madara to get to him, yes he was fast enough to attack madara and get to him quickly but he didn't instantly get there.

Now if that was minato or tobirama who were shinobi known for their speed and being FTG users they would have instantly gotten there due to the throwing of a single kunai in the marked location. Something gai doesn't have the ability to do.


----------



## Serene Grace (Feb 12, 2017)

@Troyse22 Dude just drop the point. This is what you stated, and this is what people are addressing 


Troyse22 said:


> but FTG isn't even that much faster than 8th gate speed


I think you can see why people are arguing this matter with you. We weren't referring to how fast Minato is with FTG as Minato himself doesn't move instantly after and before using it, but the instantaneous speed of FTG itself. Gai could be a 100x faster than the speed of light, but he will *never* be faster than something that is instant, nor will it ever be comparable because something that is instant lacks a travel distance hence why you can't compare speed/travel when the other doesn't have one.


----------



## Troyse22 (Feb 12, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Also , what's with the sig ? teasing Izaya ?



Naaah


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 12, 2017)

Clowe said:


> Whether you like it or not, the fact that Tobirama was defeated by Kin&Gin is a canon fact, it is written in the konoha history books and someone like Shikamaru has knowledge of it.



Interesting perspective except these "facts" found in history books are legends which are bound by lies because legends are stories past on to succeeding generations and are consistently altered based on one's interpretation of these stories. Fact is, Kin & Gin's legends were feigned and this was reflective on how Kin & Gin actually performed against Darui; horrendously. As it is canon fact that Tobirama died to Kin & Gin, it is also canon fact that Tobirama speed reigned supreme during his era even among the likes of Madara who dispatched SM Naruto like trash, had potential to have defeated Madara if not for his Rinnegan, prevailed against Izuna, and distressed multiple elite ninja; all of which are stronger than Darui. The instance makes no sense regardless of it being factual because legends are not concrete, they are subjected to lies and Kin & Gin's debut along with Tobirama's accomplishments reflect this.


----------



## Serene Grace (Feb 12, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Interesting perspective except these "facts" found in history books are legends which are bound by lies because legends are stories past on to succeeding generations and are consistently altered based on one's interpretation of these stories. Fact is, Kin & Gin's legends were feigned and this was reflective on how Kin & Gin actually performed against Darui; horrendously. As it is canon fact that Tobirama died to Kin & Gin, it is also canon fact that Tobirama speed reigned supreme during his era even among the likes of Madara who dispatched SM Naruto like trash, had potential to have defeated Madara if not for his Rinnegan, prevailed against Izuna, and distressed multiple elite ninja; all of which are stronger than Darui. The instance makes no sense regardless of it being factual because legends are not concrete, they are subjected to lies and Kin & Gin's debut along with Tobirama's accomplishments reflect this.


Bu-but Uchiha Gin and Kin said that they beat him themselves. I guess Madara's PS can destroy all of creation as well because he said so ..right


----------



## Ryuzaki (Feb 12, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Well Minato with kurama is edo Minato, so that doesn't really count. As for senjutsu, I don't see that as much of a difference maker when even Mianto himself stated that his SM was impractical , and that he wasn't that good at it.


That's not a fair to Minato because people here are using Tobirama's 'Edo' feats as a part of his character ranking.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 12, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Bu-but Uchiha Gin and Kin said that they beat him themselves. I guess Madara's PS can destroy all of creation as well because he said so ..right



We just exert our higher faculties of the human mind when we analyze certain claims being made. Kin & Gin were just vaunting and it was proven such anyways when Darui had defeated them. They were simply spewing bs, no more, no less.

And actually Madara was right. He'd probably cleave through TSB despite lacking Senjutsu.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Veracity (Feb 12, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> That's not a fair to Minato because people here are using Tobirama's 'Edo' feats as a part of his character ranking.


Alive and Edo Tobirama are essentially the same character though; except Alive Tobirama is stronger but has damn near 0 feats.

Alive Minato and Edo Minato are not the same character at all. One is restricted to Senjutsu, while the other has 50% Kurama and Senjutsu.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Ayala (Feb 12, 2017)

The assault on the second Hokage and Raikage which left them almost dead is not a lie lol. It's a fact, confirmed by different people.

You don't become known as the greatest criminal of a nation by lying to people, you also don't make people believe you beat two kages without actually beating them, just lying, lol. In fact, it would have benefited them to hide this incident, but you have to explain who killed the leader in the middle of a peace treaty.

You don't mix metaphors and hyperbole into hystorical statements, come on.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ryuzaki (Feb 12, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Alive and Edo Tobirama are essentially the same character though; except Alive Tobirama is stronger but has damn near 0 feats.
> 
> Alive Minato and Edo Minato are not the same character at all. One is restricted to Senjutsu, while the other has 50% Kurama and Senjutsu.


You can't have it one way for one character and another way for another within the same circumstances.

Unless you have overt bias against a character or for a character.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 12, 2017)

oetsuthebest said:


> The assault on the second Hokage and Raikage which left them almost dead is not a lie lol. It's a fact, confirmed by different people.
> 
> You don't become known as the greatest criminal of a nation by lying to people, you also don't make people believe you beat two kages without actually beating them, just lying, lol. In fact, it would have benefited them to hide this incident, but you have to explain who killed the leader in the middle of a peace treaty.
> 
> You don't mix metaphors and hyperbole into hystorical statements, come on.



 Lol, I'm not going to post the scan again. Kishimoto evidently told us that the legend was bound by mendacity which was reflective in how easily Darui toppled Kin & Gin.

I guess people keep ignoring arguments presented in favor of their own bullshit. You do you and I'll do me.

Reactions: Dislike 4


----------



## Ayala (Feb 12, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Lol, I'm not going to post the scan again. Kishimoto evidently told us that the legend was bound by mendacity which was reflective in how easily Darui toppled Kin & Gin.
> 
> I guess people keep ignoring arguments presented in favor of their own bullshit. You do you and I'll do me.



Uchiha, keep calm and be respectful or gtfo my sight and don't reply to me. 

It's stated from 3 different people, just explained why (should be obvious though) they couldn't have lied, but you take Shikaku saying legends are sometimes overrated (not even talking about them, as he wouldn't have known about them anymore than Tsunade and A did) as to mean they didn't do shit in their life, they didn't beat, they just tricked their way up to the fame and shit. 

You should know that shit doesn't make sense by yourself. They're criminals dude, you earn your fame you don't make it up with bullshit. You don't make up the fact you beat 2 kages, for it to be accepted world wide by yourself.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 12, 2017)

oetsuthebest said:


> Uchiha, keep calm and be respectful or gtfo my sight and don't reply to me.



Wasn't even disrespectful, nor did I resort to cheap insults.  I suggest you don't get worked up over the most trifling things.



> It's stated from 3 different people, just explained why (should be obvious though) they couldn't have lied, but you take Shikaku saying legends are sometimes overrated (not even talking about them, as he wouldn't have known about them anymore than Tsunade and A did) as to mean they didn't do shit in their life, they didn't beat, they just tricked their way up to the fame and shit.



This is exactly what it entails. We know what happened, Tobirama died to them, but what is inexplicable to the reader as to how. We know simply by witnessing their performance against Darui, we can infer that the legend was contrived in some way and the stories that were past on to future generations were embellished solely based on their interpretation. This is common sense, Tobirama's death is at variance with how Kin & Gin actually battled and Tobirama's accomplishments that succeed what was being stated.

Let me guess, you believe Tobirama is weaker than Darui? Please explain how you arrived to this egregious conclusion.



> You should know that shit doesn't make sense by yourself. They're criminals dude, you earn your fame you don't make it up with bullshit. You don't make up the fact you beat 2 kages, for it to be accepted world wide by yourself.



Obviously, this is not what Shikaku's statement was referring to in the first place. He didn't discredit their vile reputation, he discredited their accomplishments.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Clowe (Feb 12, 2017)

Except it is not a legend, it is a factual recorded account that multiple people from different countries are aware of.

There's was also a lot of PIS in favor of Darui in that fight, like him changing his most used word right when he was getting sealed, both brothers not going into V2 at the same time, only one when the other was already sealed, Darui having help from his division, team 10, Kitsuchi (someone strong enough to hold the Ten tails down for a few moments) against V2 Kinkaku and even initially against the two with Samui and her brother, which allowed him to gather precious intel on the six paths tools workings, among other things.

Are you mad that someone as lowly as Kin&Gin managed to defeat your precious Tobirama, is this what this is about?

Blame Kishi man, he's the one that made that shit canon not me

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 12, 2017)

Clowe said:


> Except it is not a legend, it a factual recorded account that multiple people from different contries are aware of.



Nope, smartest man of Konoha begs to differ.



> There's was also a lot of PIS in favor of Darui in that fight, like him changing his most used word right when he was getting sealed.



Not really, Darui wavered because he was conflicted by the imminent danger his comrades were in had he not complied; essentially having to make a choice as to whether or not to sacrifice his friends or submit to Kin & Gin's malevolence under duress which placed Darui at a disadvantage overall and Darui still rose to the occasion regardless.

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## Ishmael (Feb 12, 2017)

Still staying with my answer tobirama solos and puts down all the mist dwellers with FTG which none can react fast enough too, great sensor abilities and clone feints, superior jutsu and his mastery over the water style.

Kisame and mangetsu are the only challenge here and mangetsu only cause of his liquefying abilities but other then that the swordsman are fucked.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


----------

