# Darth Vader vs Sephiroth



## Shiba D. Inu (Sep 30, 2013)

I honestly have no idea what I'm doing here


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## Onomatopoeia (Sep 30, 2013)

Vader slaps a bitch and walks away, not considering it worth his time to kill Sephy-chan.


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## TehChron (Sep 30, 2013)

Im sure Sephiroth has better feats, but...

Force choking an overrated ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) like Sephiroth is something zi can see Vader doing.Im


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## willyvereb (Sep 30, 2013)

Well, powerscaling might also work in Vader's favor.
Not sure if we can even remotely powerscale him to Luke or Palpatine.
Or at least that certain Lord Vitate feat.

Because if yes, Vader still has the advantage in power.


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## Katou (Sep 30, 2013)

Vader Takes this . .


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## Shiorin (Sep 30, 2013)




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## Fenrir (Sep 30, 2013)

legit lel Flutter.

legit lel.


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## Flashlight237 (Sep 30, 2013)

Well, I'll give it to Sephiroth for having a longer melee range (that sword is definitely longer than Vader's lightsaber), but unless Seph is allowed to use magic, Vader would have an ability advantage, plus with him being trained under Obi Wan's wing for years, he may have a combat experience advantage. Then there's powerscaling, but really, most of Vader's feats would be in the comics, which I don't own since comics sort of grew unpopular.


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## Nevermind (Sep 30, 2013)

Vader turns the ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) into a vegetable.

Justice has been done.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 30, 2013)

Nevermind said:


> Vader turns the ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) into a vegetable.
> 
> Justice has been done.



That actually might not be so easy.

Granted, I'm sure Vader probably has a slew of better mind fuck feats, but Sephiroth's mental feats of will power are pretty damn solid.

>Held back Holy (the only feat of willpower I've ever heard of actually having a yield tacked onto it.  You could arguably suggest holding back a zettaton level holy with his willpower = planetary mental resistance feat.  Hard to say though)
>Completely resisted the mental contamination taking a long as hell dip into Mako generally should cause (mako being basically liquid memory/souls of every dead fucker to ever live).  By completely resisted, I mean it didn't affect him
>Able to resist having his mind destroyed after death while biding his time in the life stream once more.

And barring Vader getting powerscaling from Vitiate, the only thing Vader really has on the guy is speed.

Well, a lightsaber to the face I suppose would work fairly well if all else fails.


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## Nevermind (Sep 30, 2013)

Eh, Lightsabers don't just bypass durability (or at least they shouldn't).

I don't know if Vader's telepathy feats can be powerscaled from Luke.

Those resistance feats may at the very least make mindfucking him difficult, enough to get destroy Vader before he's done or what not.

Damn. We should put him up against Jedah next.


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## Adamant soul (Sep 30, 2013)

Flashlight237 said:


> Well, I'll give it to Sephiroth for having a longer melee range (that sword is definitely longer than Vader's lightsaber), but unless Seph is allowed to use magic, Vader would have an ability advantage, plus with him being trained under Obi Wan's wing for years, he may have a combat experience advantage. Then there's powerscaling, but really, most of Vader's feats would be in the comics, which I don't own since comics sort of grew unpopular.



Longer melee range won't mean shit against Vader, pre-cog is bitch like that. The fact Sephiroth has continent level magic and is Mach 14,000+ is the real problem for Vader since I'm not sure what Vader's stats are, skill and experience are equally moot since this basically comes down to weather or not Vader's force powers are at least comparabe to Seph's magic and/or Vader is fast enough to turn Seph into a vegetable via mind-fuck before he gets decapitated.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 30, 2013)

Nevermind said:


> Eh, Lightsabers don't just bypass durability (or at least they shouldn't).



That's true, but I've heard they've cut some pretty durable shit before.

Not sure how durable, but something of continent level durability wouldn't surprise me having been cut at all.



> I don't know if Vader's telepathy feats can be powerscaled from Luke.



I'd assume so if he had reached his peak, but I don't know otherwise.

The theoretical peak Vader never happened I guess though, much like Mako God Sephiroth never did either.



> Those resistance feats may at the very least make mindfucking him difficult, enough to get destroy Vader before he's done or what not.



Possibly yeah.

And to clarify the last one?  By resist being destroyed, I mean the lifestream kind of assimilates everyone's minds into that giant mass of mako post death.  Sephiroth prevented that assimilation from occurring.  Something about his willpower and hatred for Cloud being that potent.



> Damn. We should put him up against Jedah next.



The rape would be well deserved I'm sure


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## Solrac (Sep 30, 2013)

It seems most people in this thread are cheering for Sephiroth to be raped like a little you-know-what... 

Why am I unsurprised, even with the so-called recent upgrade in calcs i've heard so much about?


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## willyvereb (Sep 30, 2013)

^Making calcs for a character doesn't fix their personality.
So that much was given.


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## Solrac (Sep 30, 2013)

^ I meant, a lot of people seem to be giving Sephiroth more respect and even slightly less mockery after ChaosTheory did all the calcs and stuff, but I choose to stay with the previous status quo of the pre-summer-2012 OBD days where Cloud/Sephiroth weren't as impressive as FF7 wankers fans make him out to be.


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## Punchsplosion (Sep 30, 2013)

Yay! Pecola's closet FFVII hatred comes out again.  All-the-while offering nothing helpful to the thread.

Now back to the actual topic.  Sephiroth most likely loses due to the pre-cog aspect of Vader's abilities.  Lightsaber should do the job I would assume.  Mind-fuck shouldn't really work as per the reason that Chaos has already outlined.  I'm still interested in the theory that a concentrated telekinetic strike on a single point on a person's body might be able to amp a Force user's ability to overcome higher durability vs their actual DC.  Was it Willy who posed that theory?  Or Wombat?


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## DarkSlayerZero (Sep 30, 2013)

> Something about his willpower and hatred for Cloud being that potent.



Thinking hard about another man does wonders.


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## Ulti (Oct 1, 2013)

> Yay! Pecola's closet FFVII hatred comes out again. All-the-while offering nothing helpful to the thread.



"In the closet" implies it was subtle, with him waiting to tell everyone 

Which it isn't subtle.


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## Red Angel (Oct 1, 2013)

Guise, come on, according to the all knowing FactPile, Sephiroth isn't even supersonic because his fights with Zack and Cloud don't look fast on screen


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## Darth (Oct 1, 2013)

Continent level magic?

Uh, Vader doesn't really have anything to deal with that lol. Sephiroth could probably kill him from a significant distance. 

Although if Vader gets a force hold on Sephiroth there shouldn't be anything Sephiroth can do to break it. Unless he can cast magic without moving. And with the mental resistance feats that one guy posted on the previous page, I don't see anyone in Star Wars mindfucking Sephiroth ever. Holding onto your individuality and soul after being absorbed in the life stream for a near infinite amount of time? Yeah nothing is ever going to budge him lol. 

I mean, it's very possible that Vader could kill Sephiroth. Idealistically, a lightsaber > Masamune and Pre-cog is a bitch. But it seems that Anakin's force powers probably aren't all that impressive compared to Sephiroth's magic. And apparently Sephiroth has the speed feats necessary to quite easily blitz pretty much everyone in the SWverse, precog or no. (Not that i've seen this calcs ofc)


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## Red Angel (Oct 1, 2013)

Not really since Luke and other top tiers have lightspeed+ reactions, that and Luke and Palpatine have feats of mindfucking several billion to trillion people so they could mindrape Sephi-chan


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## TehChron (Oct 1, 2013)

Just imagined the sight of Sephiroth using Meteor, only for Palpatine to Force Storm it right on top of him.Just


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## ThanatoSeraph (Oct 1, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> That actually might not be so easy.
> 
> Granted, I'm sure Vader probably has a slew of better mind fuck feats, but Sephiroth's mental feats of will power are pretty damn solid.



The best I can think of off the top of my head is being vastly better than C'baoth, a man who was mentally enslaving the crews of entire Star Destroyers.



> >Held back Holy (the only feat of willpower I've ever heard of actually having a yield tacked onto it.  You could arguably suggest holding back a zettaton level holy with his willpower = planetary mental resistance feat.  Hard to say though)



While that is impressive, can you really correlate mental and physical power like that? I mean, even if he did achieve this via his willpower, it's not really a feat performed against mental power going by how you're describing it.



> >Completely resisted the mental contamination taking a long as hell dip into Mako generally should cause (mako being basically liquid memory/souls of every dead fucker to ever live).  By completely resisted, I mean it didn't affect him



Did he ever have to resist the entirety of the lifestream/mako trying to assimilate him? Or was it only ever a passsive effect, meaning that he wouldn't have to resist the "full force" so to speak of the mental assimilation?



> >Able to resist having his mind destroyed after death while biding his time in the life stream once more.



Same question as above, really.



> And barring Vader getting powerscaling from Vitiate, the only thing Vader really has on the guy is speed.
> 
> Well, a lightsaber to the face I suppose would work fairly well if all else fails.



To provide credence for this, I seem to remember Abeloth being wounded by a lightsaber strike by a character far weaker than her that would have been unable to overcome her force barriers, meaning that lightsabers likely possess the ability to harm beings of her level.

Been a while since I read the book that was in though so I might be wrong. Hell, I can't even remember which Fate of the Jedi book that was in.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 1, 2013)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> The best I can think of off the top of my head is being vastly better than C'baoth, a man who was mentally enslaving the crews of entire Star Destroyers.



Gotcha.



> While that is impressive, can you really correlate mental and physical power like that? I mean, even if he did achieve this via his willpower, it's not really a feat performed against mental power going by how you're describing it.



I don't see why not.  In theory, you could probably gauge all mind fuck feats by the energy it takes to control the firing of various synapses for example I suppose.

And don't get me wrong, but I have the distinct feeling we'd be sorely disappointed by the levels of energy we end up finding by doing so.

And the stipulation of whether or not its a mental invasion or not seems like a case of moving the goal posts to me.  With his will, often required to overcome and resist various mental powers, he held back a zettaton level attack.

And honestly, its either this, or a more direct correlation to his destructive capacity.  I'm not letting you fuckers try to quarter it off any longer by dodging the issue 

Not saying you specifically are, but something's got to give here, and its a damn impressive willpower feat.



> Did he ever have to resist the entirety of the lifestream/mako trying to assimilate him? Or was it only ever a passsive effect, meaning that he wouldn't have to resist the "full force" so to speak of the mental assimilation?



Not all of it I'd presume, just whatever he encountered on his way down from Nibelheim to Northern Crater.



> Same question as above, really.



Probably similar to the above, not entirely sure how to quantify a disembodied mind being attacked by the shit myself though.



> To provide credence for this, I seem to remember Abeloth being wounded by a lightsaber strike by a character far weaker than her that would have been unable to overcome her force barriers, meaning that lightsabers likely possess the ability to harm beings of her level.



Gotcha.



> Been a while since I read the book that was in though so I might be wrong. Hell, I can't even remember which Fate of the Jedi book that was in.



Fair enough, I'm sure Fang could provide if he's so inclined.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Oct 1, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Gotcha.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see why not.  In theory, you could probably gauge all mind fuck feats by the energy it takes to control the firing of various synapses for example I suppose.



Eh, I'm not too sure on that. We've always made the distinction between "direct energy" feats like DC and methods of alternate attack like soulfuck and mindfuck, as in they'd still use energy, yeah, but the amount of joules they'd use doesn't necessarily correlate to the potency of the attack. Hence the resistance system.


 We've also always made the distinction between having a "mind" and having a brain. After all, logias don't have physical synapses when they're in their elemental forms, and they can still be mindraped.


For example, in Star Wars there's a difference between mentally controlling someone via their "mind" and "physically" controlling someone via physically firing their synapses.

Also, if we go down this route, in the future there's bound to be people claiming that characters can resist mental assaults because their physical durability is larger than the "energy" it would take to mindrape someone.



> And don't get me wrong, but I have the distinct feeling we'd be sorely disappointed by the levels of energy we end up finding by doing so.



Yep.



> And the stipulation of whether or not its a mental invasion or not seems like a case of moving the goal posts to me.  With his will, often required to overcome and resist various mental powers, he held back a zettaton level attack.



I don't really see it as moving the goalposts. Sure, he used his willpower to do it, but unless that can be converted into "mental resistance", it can't really be quantified as such. 

It's also possible that his willpoer is at least in part related to his magical power and how much he can put into his attacks.



> And honestly, its either this, or a more direct correlation to his destructive capacity.  I'm not letting you fuckers try to quarter it off any longer by dodging the issue



I'd actually be more willing to buy that it's a DC feat than a mental one, unless the way he's holding it back is by overcoming Holy's mind or something by the way you're describing it.

I mean, if Seraph Sephiroth can channel that willpower into magical energy then I'm just wondering why you haven't brought this up before.

By the way, just out of curiosity, where are you getting zettaton holy from? I must have missed an update or something, as I thought it was only in the exatons at most.



> Not saying you specifically are, but something's got to give here, and its a damn impressive willpower feat.



Didn't think you were, but I wouldn't blame you if you did given how I can decide to just ignore threads if I'm not in the mood, even if I want to argue something overall  
It definitely sounds like an impressive feat, yeah.



> Not all of it I'd presume, just whatever he encountered on his way down from Nibelheim to Northern Crater.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably similar to the above, not entirely sure how to quantify a disembodied mind being attacked by the shit myself though.



I see. Still impressive, but by the sounds of it it's a bit hard to determine exactly how impressive it actually is by the sounds of it.

I'm also presuming that this took place over time, meaning that while it's impressive he was able to hold out for so long, it also means that he didn't encounter all of it at once.



> Gotcha.
> 
> 
> 
> Fair enough, I'm sure Fang could provide if he's so inclined.



Probably, yeah.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 1, 2013)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> Eh, I'm not too sure on that. We've always made the distinction between "direct energy" feats like DC and methods of alternate attack like soulfuck and mindfuck, as in they'd still use energy, yeah, but the amount of joules they'd use doesn't necessarily correlate to the potency of the attack. Hence the resistance system.



I'm aware.  Just everyone kind of tap dances the issue going "he held it back with his willpower" and kind of let it languish.

Willpower, as I noted, being one of the most prominent components to resisting certain feats.



> For example, in Star Wars there's a difference between mentally controlling someone via their "mind" and "physically" controlling someone via physically firing their synapses.



That actually doesn't make much sense to me 

I mean, what does Star Wars define as thought and all that mental shit if not the firing of different synapses in the brain stimulating different thoughts and feelings?



> We've also always made the distinction between having a "mind" and having a brain. After all, logias don't have physical synapses when they're in their elemental forms, and they can still be mindraped.



Suppose I'm not really aware, given I rarely get involved in mind fuckery debates.



> Also, if we go down this route, in the future there's bound to be people claiming that characters can resist mental assaults because their physical durability is larger than the "energy" it would take to mindrape someone.



Not seeing how, but I'm having trouble with trying to gauge most forms of hax typically myself anyway. 



> I don't really see it as moving the goalposts. Sure, he used his willpower to do it, but unless that can be converted into "mental resistance", it can't really be quantified as such.



Willpower  is



> : the ability to control yourself : strong determination that allows you to do something difficult (such as to lose weight or quit smoking)



Be it mind or body, control extends to all facets of his being in that regard.

So... yeah, I kind of see it as moving the goal posts in that you're stipulating a more direct mind fuck resistance for a will proven to be incredibly potent.



> It's also possible that his willpoer is at least in part related to his magical power and how much he can put into his attacks.



Much like the mental powers of the jedi are fueled by their command of the force?

What's the difference exactly?



> I'd actually be more willing to buy that it's a DC feat than a mental one, unless the way he's holding it back is by overcoming Holy's mind or something by the way you're describing it.



Holy itself doesn't have a mind to my knowledge.  In regards to that portion of the game, I couldn't specifically indicate to you how the hell it worked exactly.

Shouldn't be like the lifestream was willing it forward.  That's kind of a seperate beast, one that even ends up assisting Holy at the end of the game when its proven Holy got there a tad too late to be effective in taking Meteor out alone.



> I mean, if Seraph Sephiroth can channel that willpower into magical energy then I'm just wondering why you haven't brought this up before.



I'd presume he can, but it always just sort of sits there in limbo as "him blocking with his will".

I'm honestly not sure what the argument against it is actually.  I'm sure I've heard it before, I just can't recall it off the top of my head.



> By the way, just out of curiosity, where are you getting zettaton holy from? I must have missed an update or something, as I thought it was only in the exatons at most.



It's equal to Meteor.  The Black Materia is sitting on .

That's all really.



> Didn't think you were, but I wouldn't blame you if you did given how I can decide to just ignore threads if I'm not in the mood, even if I want to argue something overall
> It definitely sounds like an impressive feat, yeah.



Fair enough, I just like putting up disclaimers and such when I say shit. 



> I see. Still impressive, but by the sounds of it it's a bit hard to determine exactly how impressive it actually is by the sounds of it.



Presumably, it's probably the equivalent to fighting back a few thousand minds at least at once, if not more.

Upper bound being billions, but that's hardly something I know how to argue.



> I'm also presuming that this took place over time, meaning that while it's impressive he was able to hold out for so long, it also means that he didn't encounter all of it at once.



More or less.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Oct 1, 2013)

just gonna pick out two things here



ChaosTheory123 said:


> That actually doesn't make much sense to me
> 
> I mean, what does Star Wars define as thought and all that mental shit if not the firing of different synapses in the brain stimulating different thoughts and feelings?



abstract shit like thought itself, I guess 

I mean Force Users can communicate with  which don't have any neurons or any synapses like we know of



> I'd presume he can, but it always just sort of sits there in limbo as "him blocking with his will".
> 
> I'm honestly not sure what the argument against it is actually.  I'm sure I've heard it before, I just can't recall it off the top of my head.



well, it'd be odd for him to have that sort of DC yet still need to use meteor, I guess 

that's one argument I can think of


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 1, 2013)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> abstract shit like thought itself, I guess
> 
> I mean Force Users can communicate with  which don't have any neurons or any synapses like we know of



I gotcha.



> well, it'd be odd for him to have that sort of DC yet still need to use meteor, I guess
> 
> that's one argument I can think of



To be fair... with his showings he shouldn't require meteor period.

Sure, with his own showings it'd take multiple attacks (barrier, being above a full powered Jenova, etc), but he can certainly inflict the wound He desired to cause with Meteor on his own just going off his own shit without Holy.

Basically, I never understood why he needed it in the first place myself.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Oct 1, 2013)

well, I guess he really wanted to be sure he'd do it in one fell swoop and figured the waiting would be worth it

the planet in FF7 does have its own immune system of sorts, so I'd think he wanted something big enough to cripple it in one shot before it could do shit


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 1, 2013)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> well, I guess he really wanted to be sure he'd do it in one fell swoop and figured the waiting would be worth it
> 
> the planet in FF7 does have its own immune system of sorts, so I'd think he wanted something big enough to cripple it in one shot before it could do shit



Hard to say.

The planet does heal itself, it was the train of thought behind having him inflict the wound in the first place... put that's a slow as hell healing process.  He wouldn't need to cripple it in one shot.  Northern Crater is a testament to that fact.  2000 years later, its still a giant wound, even though it was much larger before (you could argue the original crater probably extended to that mountain range surrounding it... hard to say though)

Basically, it almost feels like we're appealing to legit plot induced stupidity (the requirement of the black materia) to discredit a feat


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## ThanatoSeraph (Oct 1, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I'm aware.  Just everyone kind of tap dances the issue going "he held it back with his willpower" and kind of let it languish.
> 
> Willpower, as I noted, being one of the most prominent components to resisting certain feats.



It is, yeah, but he's holding back something's DC via his willpower, not its mental force.




> That actually doesn't make much sense to me
> 
> I mean, what does Star Wars define as thought and all that mental shit if not the firing of different synapses in the brain stimulating different thoughts and feelings?



Well, it is defined as that, as in physical thought involves the firing of synapses and whatnot, but there's also a second aspect, and that's their "consciousness" as beings within the force.

After all, force ghosts don't exactly have synapses to fire.

Also what CD said. 




> Suppose I'm not really aware, given I rarely get involved in mind fuckery debates.



That's fair enough, but yeah, that's  how things have typically been determined to my knowledge.



> Not seeing how, but I'm having trouble with trying to gauge most forms of hax typically myself anyway.



What I'm predicting is something like this:



> It takes 2000 joules to fire as many synapses as he did and that's not even wall level. [Character X] has city level durability and he should easily be able to resist that level of energy.



Although maybe I'm being a bit too pessimistic regarding how people will respond to it.

Then again, looking at how people have responded to other new suggestions of how to do stuff I'm really not so sure.



> Willpower  is
> 
> 
> 
> ...



His will is strong, yeah, that much is apparent. But this particular feat doesn't seem to have anything to do with the literal, our world, mental resistance form of willpower. It involves using his will to hold back an attack of DC. You can't correlate DC and mental feats.


It's like saying that because someone can "will" a building to explode they can resist mind control feats of a dozen or so people.



> Much like the mental powers of the jedi are fueled by their command of the force?
> 
> What's the difference exactly?



Nothing really, and that's kind of my argument Chaos. 

Starkiller used his command of the force, which involves willpower, to bring down a Star Destroyer, but you don't see people throwing around his "city level willpower" as a mental feat.






> Holy itself doesn't have a mind to my knowledge.  In regards to that portion of the game, I couldn't specifically indicate to you how the hell it worked exactly.
> 
> Shouldn't be like the lifestream was willing it forward.  That's kind of a seperate beast, one that even ends up assisting Holy at the end of the game when its proven Holy got there a tad too late to be effective in taking Meteor out alone.






> I'd presume he can, but it always just sort of sits there in limbo as "him blocking with his will".
> 
> I'm honestly not sure what the argument against it is actually.  I'm sure I've heard it before, I just can't recall it off the top of my head.



If I had to hazard a guess it would be something like Sephiroth being unable to channel his "willpower energy" into his magical energy or something. 

Also what CD said.



> It's equal to Meteor.  The Black Materia is sitting on .
> 
> That's all really.



Ah, I see. I wasn't aware that a calc for meteor's power had been done.

I guess that makes sense, seeing as how Meteor was going to seriously mess up the Planet.

On an unrelated aside, have you seen the original Japanese Supernova? 



> Fair enough, I just like putting up disclaimers and such when I say shit.



Nothing wrong with that. 

Probably prevents people from getting the wrong impression.


> Presumably, it's probably the equivalent to fighting back a few thousand minds at least at once, if not more.
> 
> Upper bound being billions, but that's hardly something I know how to argue.



Given how many people have probably existed on the Planet before, that seems like a believeable low-end. 

But yeah, as you said, it's not something that can be concretely argued in terms of quantification.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 1, 2013)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> It is, yeah, but he's holding back something's DC via his willpower, not its mental force.



True.



> Well, it is defined as that, as in physical thought involves the firing of synapses and whatnot, but there's also a second aspect, and that's their "consciousness" as beings within the force.
> 
> After all, force ghosts don't exactly have synapses to fire.
> 
> Also what CD said.



Gotcha.



> That's fair enough, but yeah, that's  how things have typically been determined to my knowledge.



I see then.



> What I'm predicting is something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's probably a toss up with some of these fuckers honestly.

I could see why you'd worry about that kind of bullshit though.



> His will is strong, yeah, that much is apparent. But this particular feat doesn't seem to have anything to do with the literal, our world, mental resistance form of willpower. It involves using his will to hold back an attack of DC. You can't correlate DC and mental feats.



That's true enough.



> It's like saying that because someone can "will" a building to explode they can resist mind control feats of a dozen or so people.



That's certainly a better way of illustrating your stance 



> Nothing really, and that's kind of my argument Chaos.
> 
> Starkiller used his command of the force, which involves willpower, to bring down a Star Destroyer, but you don't see people throwing around his "city level willpower" as a mental feat.



True enough.



> If I had to hazard a guess it would be something like Sephiroth being unable to channel his "willpower energy" into his magical energy or something.



That's an unsupported assumption honestly.  Nothing in the game suggests he can't channel his "willpower" into magic so to speak.

Hell, getting technical, limit breaks are sort of like the willpower of the user going into overdrive for a brief period of time IIRC.



> Also what CD said.



Like I mentioned, its essentially just appealing to PIS.



> Ah, I see. I wasn't aware that a calc for meteor's power had been done.
> 
> I guess that makes sense, seeing as how Meteor was going to seriously mess up the Planet.



Not expecting you to be keeping up with everything I post dude 

And it does more or less.  Could be higher, just figured I'd go with a conservative travel distance.



> On an unrelated aside, have you seen the original Japanese Supernova?



Yep.  Been a while, but it looked less impressive anyway.

Might do a calc for either one day out of boredom, even if its not usable for jack shit.

Not due to gameplay so much as him having the power to fuck up solar systems when he wants to absorb a planet's worth of energy... makes fuck all sense.

Honestly, with the revelation that summons and the like occur in an alternate dimension, I technically could have you fuckers by the balls on it being legit were it not for that hang up above. 



> Nothing wrong with that.
> 
> Probably prevents people from getting the wrong impression.



Indeed 



> Given how many people have probably existed on the Planet before, that seems like a believeable low-end.
> 
> But yeah, as you said, it's not something that can be concretely argued in terms of quantification.



More or less my thoughts summed up.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Oct 1, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Basically, it almost feels like we're appealing to legit plot induced stupidity (the requirement of the black materia) to discredit a feat



I guess, but I like trying to find in-universe rationalizations


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 1, 2013)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> I guess, but I like trying to find in-universe rationalizations



I do myself... but there's really nothing rational about the plot once you pick it apart I guess.

Well, granted, Sephiroth is far from sane post Nibelheim, so rational doesn't really need to exist.

His insanity really could just be the explanation.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 2, 2013)

Also, pretty sure the "On the Way to a Smile" stories are canon, being written by Nojima and all IIRC.

Seems the case of Yuffie references the power one has with materia is directly proportional to their mental power.



			
				The Case of Yuffie said:
			
		

> The problem was Yuffie herself didn’t have the mental power. Materia was the crystallization of the Lifestream. To withdraw the power from the stabilized crystal, some form of shock is required and this is triggered by the mind waves of the user. As a result of that, the materia user’s mind is significantly weakened.



Make of that what you will, what with the fact Sephiroth held back Holy with his mind more or less.


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## willyvereb (Oct 2, 2013)

The problem is that you can't seem to quantify this in the sense we do for mental resistance.
Which is by counting heads.
Just like how Cacodominus in W40k was controlling the population of 1300 star systems or how Palpatine was controlling the billions of citizens on Byss, you have to quantify the mental resistance feats in such numbers.

You seem to confuse telepathy with telekinesis.
An attack empowered with minds and huge destructive power is telekinesis.
Or maybe some sort of unique magic.
An attack that which is designed to enslave the minds of everyone is telepathy/mindfuck.
There could be an attack which combines both but you have to quantify these separately.
As simple as that.
The idea of "nuke level telepathy" is an utter nonsense.
Even if an attack is powered by billions of souls if it's purely physical in effect then a dude who tanked it shouldn't need any spiritual or mental resistance feats.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 2, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> The problem is that you can't seem to quantify this in the sense we do for mental resistance.
> Which is by counting heads.
> Just like how Cacodominus in W40k was controlling the population of 1300 star systems or how Palpatine was controlling the billions of citizens on Byss, you have to quantify the mental resistance feats in such numbers.
> 
> ...



Oh, I'm aware.

I just figured I'd throw this interpretation out there since so many fuckers are gung ho to ignore the straight forward "he's holding it back with his mind, he can generate this much energy to attack your shit with" approach.

Because its about time to put the shit to rest and actually stop pussy footing the feat 

And coupled with the quote detailing how magic functions in the verse from a novel written by the co-writer to the game (Nojima) suggests your ability to tap into the power of magic/materia is fueled by your will/mental power... even the most obstinate of dick head shouldn't be able to plug there ears and do much else than bitch at this point


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## willyvereb (Oct 2, 2013)

And...how quantifiable it is as a mental resistance feat?
That's a fairly important question here.
Like I said, "nuke level telepathy" does not exist.
Also certain techniques leaving characters mentally exhausted is a fairly common trope.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 2, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> And...how quantifiable it is as a mental resistance feat?
> That's a fairly important question here.



No fucking clue.

Hence why I'm insinuating ignoring it being a DC feat is a crock of shit with this thread more or less.

And that quote is just further help to illustrate why.

Namely because a direct correlation between willpower/mental power and the potency of the cast magic exists.

Shouldn't be needed, but given this was a verse where it was interpreted to be "skyscraper" level when you had obvious feats like the fucking Weapons pocking the ground with massive craters... can't say I have much confidence in how well shit has ever been argued myself


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## Crimson Dragoon (Oct 2, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Shouldn't be needed, but given this was a verse where it was interpreted to be "skyscraper" level



gooooooood times

almost as good as moon-planetoid level Super Starscream


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 2, 2013)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> gooooooood times
> 
> almost as good as moon-planetoid level Super Starscream



Indeed they were.

The fun all these series have had in the past year is great


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## Crimson Dragoon (Oct 2, 2013)

FFverse in general getting massive boosts

TF non-cosmics (as in below universal) shooting way the fuck up in power level after Gig and myself stopped pussy-footing around and accepted the glory of the retcon


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 2, 2013)

Then you have Zelda, Demon's/Dark Souls, Fable (far from a common verse, but who was expecting that shit?), Star Wars, Kamen Rider in general, and a bunch of shit my addled mind can't think up at the moment.


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## Red Angel (Oct 2, 2013)

Mhm, LOTR, 40K, Devil May Cry, several others


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 2, 2013)

^ what about DMC ?

all I see is Dante getting put in stomp matches =/



and - is that Zettaton level Sephiroth I see ?


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## willyvereb (Oct 2, 2013)

Maybe Sephiroth's power equals one unit of Raditz now.


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## Red Angel (Oct 2, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> ^ what about DMC ?
> 
> all I see is Dante getting put in stomp matches =/
> 
> ...



I thought several DMC higher ups got elevated to city level+

Though 40K and LOTR still stand

Sauron soloing FT


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 2, 2013)

LOTR and WH40k were always strong though




> I thought several DMC higher ups got elevated to city level+


oh yeah


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## Red Angel (Oct 2, 2013)

And they always will be


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## Nevermind (Oct 2, 2013)

I'd presume the thing about everyone that ever lived should be impressive.


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## Nevermind (Oct 3, 2013)

Hmmm, so no more posts? 

This is like the one thread that's actually interesting.


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## Nep Heart (Oct 3, 2013)

Apparently, Sephy-Chan is now Small Planet Level+ with Relativistic+ speed according to his most recent update within the last two days... so yeah.


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## Nevermind (Oct 3, 2013)

What. 

Well whatever at this point I can hardly keep track.

It's more about hax here though.


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## Nep Heart (Oct 3, 2013)

True, the newest (because fuck, even I can't keep up with the FF calcs myself anymore) Sephiroth update to his stats don't really serve to help his mental resistance, although I keep reading it's apparently strong enough to resist something on Vader's level.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 3, 2013)

Nevermind said:


> I'd presume the thing about everyone that ever lived should be impressive.



It is, and if he ever had to deal with all them at once, it's probably right after Cloud kills him for the last time in FFVII... but hard to say given the nature of the lifestream. 



Ampchu said:


> Apparently, Sephy-Chan is now Small Planet Level+ with Relativistic+ speed according to his most recent update within the last two days... so yeah.





Nevermind said:


> What.



Well, given the conclusion that holding back Holy is a DC thing on his part... yeah, it makes him the most powerful character by showings and context in FFVII.  Which puts him above Chaos Vincent in speed.

And I went back to read some of the arguments against using Holy to gauge his DC from way back... they were about as bad as reading through that old Sensui vs King Piccolo thread on the wiki.


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## Nevermind (Oct 3, 2013)

Ampchu said:


> True, the newest (because fuck, even I can't keep up with the FF calcs myself anymore)



Yeah, when I try to update them on the scales I have no idea if any update came out. Much the same with the Nardo calcs, which I avoid more.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Oct 3, 2013)

I don't really think that can be determined just going by the feats of him swimming through Mako and whatnot, when that took place over time and wasn't the entire planet's supply of it.

Vader's DC can't match up, but his telepathy is at the very least vastly superior to a man who was casually controlling thousands of people on a Star Destroyer, and that seems like enough to possibly overwhelm Sephiroth's minimum resistance.

Of course, it can also be reasonably argued that it would grant Sephiroth the needed resistance, so... yeah, it's hard to determine.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 3, 2013)

Nevermind said:


> Yeah, when I try to update them on the scales I have no idea if any update came out. Much the same with the Nardo calcs, which I avoid more.



Just leave it to me.

I'll get around to it, no need to worry yourself trying to keep up as I think up more and more shit


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## Nep Heart (Oct 3, 2013)

If only Chaos can do calcs for other series I like.


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## Nevermind (Oct 3, 2013)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> Of course, it can also be reasonably argued that it would grant Sephiroth the needed resistance, so... yeah, it's hard to determine.



It doesn't seem that way to me.

If he has the necessary resistance, his superiority in every other stat takes this home.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 3, 2013)

Ampchu said:


> If only Chaos can do calcs for other series I like.



I've done shit for more than 40-50 series by now.

I've touched upon nothing?


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## ThanatoSeraph (Oct 3, 2013)

I was just talking about his mental resistance Nevermind. Nothing about anything else. As in, it's hard to determine if he would have the necessary mental resistance or not.

Although Darth Vader is still likely his superior in speed by the way, as well as having precog to assist that.


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## Nep Heart (Oct 3, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I've done shit for more than 40-50 series by now.
> 
> I've touched upon nothing?



 Nah, you've done three actually (two of them being my favorite manga series of course), which is why I added "others" in there. Likely four if I check out the blogs again 

 Although I am tempted to request some calcs for Touhou.


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## Nevermind (Oct 3, 2013)

I knew it.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 3, 2013)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> I was just talking about his mental resistance Nevermind. Nothing about anything else. As in, it's hard to determine if he would have the necessary mental resistance or not.



His mental resistance could either be out of Vader's range or around what Vader can handle.

Kind of hard to quantify as we sort of concluded.  I sort of figure he can easily handle a few thousand minds at least myself, given how dilute the lifestream is and shit, but hard to say.



> Although Darth Vader is still likely his superior in speed by the way, as well as having precog to assist that.



Those recent Star Wars upgrades and previous shit


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## ThanatoSeraph (Oct 3, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> His mental resistance could either be out of Vader's range or around what Vader can handle.
> 
> Kind of hard to quantify as we sort of concluded.  I sort of figure he can easily handle a few thousand minds at least myself, given how dilute the lifestream is and shit, but hard to say.



Yeah, it's enough to be arguable either way. It makes it harder to determine an actual victor, but IMO that maked it a far better match than something where everything is clear cut and it comes down to who's DC/speed is higher.

Just so long as the uncertainty isn't the other, less pleasant type of "uncertainty" that can be commonly seen in threads. 



> Those recent Star Wars upgrades and previous shit



Yep. 

Come to think of it, I still need to do that slip-jaws calc when I can be bothered.


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## Nevermind (Oct 3, 2013)

From what I've seen in the thread Sephiroth should win this more often than not...he has more avenues of victory and Vader has basically only one, which may be problematic.

Palpatine still fucks him up the ass though.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 3, 2013)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> Yeah, it's enough to be arguable either way. It makes it harder to determine an actual victor, but IMO that maked it a far better match than something where everything is clear cut and it comes down to who's DC/speed is higher.



Yeah, cut and dry is kind of dull.  It just becomes numbers when that happens.



> Just so long as the uncertainty isn't the other, less pleasant type of "uncertainty" that can be commonly seen in threads.







> Yep.
> 
> Come to think of it, I still need to do that slip-jaws calc when I can be bothered.



Get to it 

Whenever the fuck you feel like it anyway.


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## willyvereb (Oct 3, 2013)

I don't see anything really quantifiable with Sephiroth's mindfuck resistance feat.
That's the only thing we concluded.
So if it would come to that, Vader would easily overwhelm him.

Chaos, you might be more knowledgable about FF but you haven't really answered this issue either.
So exactly how you quantify his resistance?
If for anything, this is important for future matches.

Also scaling him to Chaos Vincent just because Sephiroth now has a better DC feat is...extremely iffy.
I would actually call that an abuse of powerscaling.
Even if technically "stronger" there's no evidence that Sephiroth is on par with Chaos Vincent's speed.
The two never interacted and IIRC there isn't any connection we can draw between the two which can establish this.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 3, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> I don't see anything really quantifiable with Sephiroth's mindfuck resistance feat.
> That's the only thing we concluded.
> So if it would come to that, Vader would easily overwhelm him.



Certainly is what you could argue.



> Chaos, you might be more knowledgable about FF but you haven't really answered this issue either.
> So exactly how you quantify his resistance?
> If for anything, this is important for future matches.



Hard to say, I suppose if I had to try, I could scale how much lifestream exists in the planet and compare it to the volume Sephiroth comes into contact with if I had to try.

But not at this time.



> Also scaling him to Chaos Vincent just because Sephiroth now has a better DC feat is...extremely iffy.
> I would actually call that an abuse of powerscaling.
> Even if technically "stronger" there's no evidence that Sephiroth is on par with Chaos Vincent's speed.
> The two never interacted and IIRC there isn't any connection we can draw between the two which can establish this.



He's not noted to be anything special in terms of being a speedster (as in, its not an ability central to his power up), and stats are further amplified by the energy (and Jenova Cells for fuckers like SOLDIER members) one has at their disposal in this series.  Kind of the point of the SOLDIER program and the like.

And Sephiroth has the defacto largest pool of it to amp himself from.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 4, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> Also scaling him to Chaos Vincent just because Sephiroth now has a better DC feat is...extremely iffy.
> I would actually call that an abuse of powerscaling.
> Even if technically "stronger" there's no evidence that Sephiroth is on par with Chaos Vincent's speed.
> The two never interacted and IIRC there isn't any connection we can draw between the two which can establish this.


truthfully ? I kind of agree with this, any other time I feel we would be really strict with this kind of powerscaling


but, the (mako ?) amping argument may (or may not) work here in Bishies favor .. and more importantly, given my raging hard-on for him , I'll take my relativistic Sephiroth and be on my way


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 4, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> truthfully ? I kind of agree with this, any other time I feel we would be really strict with this kind of powerscaling



Can't say I see what you mean.  I'm pretty much only powerscaling in this manner in emulation of shit we've normally done.

If its considered invalid down the line, fair enough, but I'm not seeing the issue here for what essentially amounts to another energy based series of sorts.



> but, the (mako ?) amping argument may (or may not) work here in Bishies favor ..



Don't see why it wouldn't.  Its this universe's ki source essentially.  Its all spirit energy and shit (aka the shit that powers materia and limit breaks).  It just so happens your natural reserves can be further amped by means like how Sephiroth absorbed a bunch of it over the years while reforming his body, the SOLDIER program in general, and even Chaos is just extra lifestream (of tainted variety) injected into Vincent that he can call upon to increase his power and long distance movement speed.

Also, not sure if this is very helpful regarding the mind fuckery of the lifestream, but here's how  defines mako poisoning.



			
				FFVII Ultimania Omega said:
			
		

> *Mako poisoning*
> The Lifestream is the place to which all life returns, and, as a result, it is
> overflowing with knowledge. Consequently, when one falls in the Lifestream,
> the surge of information entering their head exceeds their brain's tolerance
> ...


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 4, 2013)

like I said, relativistic Sephiroth is all good 


that statement about him being the strongest (even if it's about willpower or whatever) in FF7 would also make _more_ sense, you gotta admit


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## lihimsidhe (Oct 9, 2013)

My knowledge of Star Wars consists of the movies.

My knowledge of FFVII consists of the core game + Advent Children.

These are the versions I am familiar with.  Deciding what versions are being used is paramount yet I see it take the backseat in most debates for some unknown reason.  So with that said...

*Sephiroth (Advent Children) vs Darth Vader (Episode VI) = Sephiroth (Advent Children) as the Victor.*

*The Mindfuck Issue*

What this boils down to me is that Sephiroth has enough willpower to resist telepathic attacks.  In game terms he would be able to 'roll to resist' instead of being instantly and automatically overwhelmed by it.  The question is then if a mindfuck attack launched from Vader would require all of Vader's concentration vs partial.  If it's partial then Vader can do other things like... do his taxes or stab him with lightsaber.  

My conjecture is that a telepathic attack that targets Sephiroth from a being like Vader would require Vader's full attention.  

_Draw_

*The Speed Issue*

I entered an Obi Wan vs Wrath (FMA) debate a while ago and thought it would be an interesting match up.  Apparently in Star Wars there is much that exists in the universe off screen as well as different canons with known characters busting incredible feats out their ass left and right.   It's' a lot to dig into.  But lets' go with what we can see.

The lasers do not travel at light speed or even close to light speed since we can visibly track them.  We can get into fourth wall debates about how that wouldn't make for a visually interesting battle if Vader and Luke were deflecting 'invisible' attacks but that doesn't change the attack that Johnny Starwars and his mom can see the laser bursts traveling at not anywhere close to light speed. 

What we can put forth, however, is that they are fast projectiles.  As fast as bullets? Hard to say.  From my own experience firing rounds I would have to say the lasers in the movie vs real round speed is in the same ballpark.

Does Sephiroth have experience with dealing with bullet timing?  Well his clones in Advent Children sure did.  So I will use inductive reasoning to put forth the conjecture since Sephiroth's clones had shown bullet timing feats earlier in Advent Children then Sephiroth is capable of just as much.

In fact I would say that Sephiroth's feats of speed in Advent Children far outstrip any speed feats Vader has shown in any of the movies.

_+1 Sephiroth_

*The Damage Issue*

Cloud and Sephiroth were fighting through buildings as if they were sheets hanging from a ceiling.  I think I can recall Darth Vader telekinetically throwing some random wall debris.

_+1 Sephiroth_

*Intelligence*

"Only I can save you with my new powaz."  

_+1 Sephiroth or anyone in the Star Wars universe that can use their equivalent of the internet to look up to see if the dark side of the Force has anything to do with healing.  At all._

*Force Pull/Push/Choke vs Sephiroth's Flight*

I used to watch Heroes.  It did have it's good parts.  My favorite character was Nathan.  In one episode taking place in an alternate universe his power corrupted brother, Peter, telekinetically held Nathan in place while he telekinietcally sliced his head open.  Nathan's power was flight and I really didn't think too much about it.

However, I realized that Nathan's flight was strong enough to push him past the speed of sound.  That takes a lot of force to do so.  I then realized that Nathan at the very least could have resisted Peter's telekinetic hold by trying to fly.  The most power we saw that telekinesis do was flip over an armored truck and move some boulders.  It can at least be argued that perhaps Nathan could have flown out of that grip.

Vader gets a Force Hold on Sephiroth.  Can Sephiroth resist it with his flight?  I say he can.  Whether Sephiroth can fly out of it and chronically resist it is up to debate.  It's Sephiroth's shown flight speed and the force needed to achieve said speed vs Vader's strongest display of telekinesis shown in the movies.

_Debatable_

*Darth Vader vs High Ground*

Sephiroth can fly.  He always has the High Ground.

+1 Sephiroth

(I hope you realize this is a joke statement.  If not lighten up.)

*Lightsaber vs Murasama Issue
*
Honestly this could go either way.  It's a magic vs tech debate.  I remember a similar issue when I had a Wolverine vs Kratos debate.  Would adamantium cut through Kratos's chains?  Who knows?

All in all Sephiroth wins this but it's not a cakewalk.  Probably close to something like 6-8 times out of 10.


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## willyvereb (Oct 9, 2013)

@lihimsidhe: Your way of analysis is interesting but rather inaccurate.
You clearly lack the knowledge regarding both, basing their performance on bits you saw of them.
Also ignoring calcs and such that had been established for them.

So don't be surprised if others will regard your post like trash.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Oct 10, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> Also scaling him to Chaos Vincent just because Sephiroth now has a better DC feat is...extremely iffy.
> I would actually call that an abuse of powerscaling.
> Even if technically "stronger" there's no evidence that Sephiroth is on par with Chaos Vincent's speed.
> The two never interacted and IIRC there isn't any connection we can draw between the two which can establish this.



Well Vincent was part of the party and he actually transformed into Chaos when the party went against Hojo according to Hojo himself in DoC. He can transform into Chaos at will as long as he has the Protomateria. So it's likely he transformed in the final battle against Sephiroth as well.


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## DarkTorrent (Oct 10, 2013)

theleechqueen said:


> Well Vincent was part of the party and he actually transformed into Chaos when the party went against Hojo according to Hojo himself in DoC. He can transform into Chaos at will as long as he has the Protomateria. So it's likely he transformed in the final battle against Sephiroth as well.



Considering you used "likely" I take it wasn't actually shown whether he transformed or not, right?


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Oct 10, 2013)

DarkTorrent said:


> Considering you used "likely" I take it wasn't actually shown whether he transformed or not, right?



Yeah, it wasn't really shown. But Chaos is the last of Vincent's Limit Breaks, and according to Hojo in DoC he transformed when the part was fighting him. I can see two reasons he wouldn't transform when fighting Sephiroth; there was either no need for him to transform because the combined power of the party was enough to take Sephiroth down, or his deep hatred for Hojo was just greater than his desire to save the world from destruction, so he transformed to utterly overkill Hojo.


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## DarkTorrent (Oct 10, 2013)

theleechqueen said:


> Yeah, it wasn't really shown. But Chaos is the last of Vincent's Limit Breaks, and according to Hojo in DoC he transformed when the part was fighting him. I can see two reasons he wouldn't transform when fighting Sephiroth; there was either no need for him to transform because the combined power of the party was enough to take Sephiroth down, or his deep hatred for Hojo was just greater than his desire to save the world from destruction, so he transformed to utterly overkill Hojo.



The problem here isn't really Vincent's tranformation not being shown, but his battle in Chaos form against Sephiroth not being shown.

The issue that Willy raised is the validity of powerscaling Sephiroth's speed from Chaos Vincent's feat, which the likelyhood of Vincent using his chaos form during that battle doesn't answer, because:

1) It has nothing to do with proving that powerscaling in FF7 verse is linear like for example in DBZ.
2) it doesn't provide the feat of Sephiroth matching or at least reacting to Chaos Vincent's speed, which is required when powerscaling is a little more complex in a verse (i.e. character A can be faster than character B, but is inferior in all other stats).


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